From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 00:03:49 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:03:49 -0000 Subject: Why don't they brake or take the wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Fran: > What I do not understand is why wands break so easily....can anyone > shed some light on this? > > Dan: > Well, they are wood, after all. And they're rather long, so it would be rather easy to do. > -Dan > Yes, I know they are wood.....but why aren't they magiked some way so they dont break as easily. As important as a wand is to a wizard/witch, I would think they would be more durable! Fran From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 00:05:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:05:51 -0000 Subject: Why not Break Eands &Thoughts on Neville? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74507 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sarcasticmuppet" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ximena Valdivia" > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "agnesbrauner" > > > wrote: > > > > Before Harry leaves the room, why not take the two death > > > > eaters wands and/or break them? > > > > > > Ximena > > > > Me (sarcasticmuppet): > > ... a wand is something very dear and personal to a witch or > > wizard. Even in the heat of battle, neither side would even think > > of destroying their enemy's wand. It's just dishonorable. It's > > sort of like an unspoken code of honor among wizards. ... > > > > --Ashley-- > Kristen: > > Do we really know if there is a code of honor regarding wands? > bboy_mn: Code of Honor? ...but of course. Section 3, Paragraph 4, Clause 2 of... The Fictional Hero's Code of Conduct - Section 3 - Proper Conduct for Engaging the Toadies, Minions, and Evil Hordes of an Evil Overlord in Combat (humor). Clause 2 - Never take the weapon of an unconscious or dead toadie, minion, or member of the evil horde. If you do, you'll completely screw up the plot. This doesn't just happen in the HP world, this is a universal plot device that occurs in almost every movies, videos, and books. It's similar to the Toadie, Minions, and Evil Horde's Code of Conduct Sec 3, Para 1, Clause 1 ... "When in a group, never attack the hero en masse, alway attack one at a time, each in turn until such time as all Minions are defeated or it becomes necessary to retreat." Amendment A.) One minion may seek up behind the hero while he is fighting another minion, and club him on the head, if the plot requires that the hero be captured. Well, I am being a little stupid with this 'Hero's Code of Conduct' thing, but it does have some merit. We see this in movies all the time, so it's not that unusual of a plot device. > Kristen: > > ..., I'm dying to find out how Neville does when he obtains "his" > own wand. ... this boy is going to show some new attitude and > leadership. ... I think his grandmother knows about the prophecy > .... Turning Neville into bumbling, inept, lack luster wizard is > certainly a good disguise. ...edited... At any rate, Neville's DADA > skills have to improve once he has a new wand...unless someone > curses it...oh, dear! bboy_mn: OK, I admit it, I'm just rambling here. In another thread I speculated that Neville might surprise us by coming back with a Fawkes Phoenix Feather wand. Wouldn't that be an interesting twist to the plot. As far as his grandmother, she really irritates me. I have speculated that they might let Harry out of Privet Drive for an afternoon, day, or weekend now and then, rather than leave him alone until two weeks before the end of summer holiday. One good day trip would be Harry, Ron, and Hermione going to Neville's house to have a joint Harry/Neville birthday party. I envision, Grandma Longbottom starting to put Neville down again over tea, at which time our heroic trio take it upon themselves to set grandma straight about Neville. I think grandma might be surprised to hear how well and how bravely Neville fought against the DE when they were out numbered 2-to-1. Addition, rambling thought. Since Neville crammed Hermione's wand into the Death Eater's eye and saved Harry, does that count as a 'life saving', and therefore, a life debt? Sorry, I know that didn't add much, but it was fun. Just a thought. bboy_mn From shaman at mac.com Fri Aug 1 00:14:08 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:14:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: <14.1677f98e.2c5ae010@aol.com> Message-ID: <11B9E996-C3B5-11D7-ADF0-000393C324F6@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74508 On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 05:11 PM, Oboek8 at aol.com wrote: > What about the Katie Couric interview on NBC a while ago when Katie > asked, > "So, are Harry and Hermione going to get together?" and J.K. Rowling > said, > "Harry and Hermione? No, really you think? More like Ron and Hermione." Katie Couric *IS* Rita Skeeter.... From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 00:15:48 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:15:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why don't they brake or take the wands? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74509 Fran: Yes, I know they are wood.....but why aren't they magiked some way so they dont break as easily. As important as a wand is to a wizard/witch, I would think they would be more durable! Dan: We know from CoMG class that there are only certain trees with "wand-quality" wood in the HPverse. I suspect that applying magical charms to wands is like rubbing a magnet on a piece of electronics... sort of. That is, it just messes up the effectiveness of the wand (permanently?). When wands are so easily replaceable and relatively cheap (if we go by the galleon-muggle money rate from QttA/FbaWtFT), I bet it happens all the time. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 00:34:07 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:34:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030801003407.68819.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74510 scooting2win wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: ...Kreacher knows Snape is a member of OoTP... will he tell Narcissa Malfoy now that Sirius is gone? Not to mention any other information he may have collected about the OoTP. He betrayed Sirius when he was alive so it seems he would do anything he could to be a good little house elf for any surviving family members, particularly the foul ones he adores so much. ------------------- Good points, and though he can't reveal the location of #12 Grimmauld (the secret keeper thing), he's under no constraint to not talk about the "filth" and "half breeds" using the property. Snape's cover would seem blown, too, not to mention the Order's Ministry moles. Unfortunately, that damage is probably already done. Somehow, Kreacher's got to go, and at that point, Harry will need a dedicated house elf . . . hmmmm . . . any possible candidates for that job . . . owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 00:41:32 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge and Gringotts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030801004132.71029.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74511 mhershey2001 wrote: "tomatogrower88" wrote: So how far will Fudge go? Many people said much the same thing about Hitler at the time: "Well, I don't quite agree with his METHODS, but you have to admit, a lot of his ideas are right. And he did make the trains run on time, so he's not all bad..." ---------------- Good comparison and I agree. Sorry to nitpick, though - I think it was Mussolini who was said to have made the (notoriously late) Italian trains run on time! (the analogy is the same). owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkscherme at adelphia.net Fri Aug 1 00:49:15 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:49:15 -0000 Subject: Why not Break Eands &Thoughts on Neville? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: >(snip) > > > Me (sarcasticmuppet): > > > ... a wand is something very dear and personal to a witch or > > > wizard. Even in the heat of battle, neither side would even think > > > of destroying their enemy's wand. It's just dishonorable. It's > > > sort of like an unspoken code of honor among wizards. ... > > > > > > --Ashley-- > > > Kristen: > > > > Do we really know if there is a code of honor regarding wands? > > > > bboy_mn: > > Code of Honor? ...but of course. Section 3, Paragraph 4, Clause 2 of... > > The Fictional Hero's Code of Conduct - > > Section 3 - Proper Conduct for Engaging the Toadies, Minions, and Evil > Hordes of an Evil Overlord in Combat (humor). > > Clause 2 - Never take the weapon of an unconscious or dead toadie, > minion, or member of the evil horde. If you do, you'll completely > screw up the plot. > > This doesn't just happen in the HP world, this is a universal plot > device that occurs in almost every movies, videos, and books. > > It's similar to the Toadie, Minions, and Evil Horde's Code of Conduct > Sec 3, Para 1, Clause 1 ... > > "When in a group, never attack the hero en masse, alway attack one at > a time, each in turn until such time as all Minions are defeated or it > becomes necessary to retreat." > > Amendment A.) One minion may seek up behind the hero while he is > fighting another minion, and club him on the head, if the plot > requires that the hero be captured. > > Well, I am being a little stupid with this 'Hero's Code of Conduct' > thing, but it does have some merit. We see this in movies all the > time, so it's not that unusual of a plot device. > > > Kristen: > > > > ..., I'm dying to find out how Neville does when he obtains "his" > > own wand. ... this boy is going to show some new attitude and > > leadership. ... I think his grandmother knows about the prophecy > > .... Turning Neville into bumbling, inept, lack luster wizard is > > certainly a good disguise. ...edited... At any rate, Neville's DADA > > skills have to improve once he has a new wand...unless someone > > curses it...oh, dear! > > > bboy_mn: > OK, I admit it, I'm just rambling here. In another thread I speculated > that Neville might surprise us by coming back with a Fawkes Phoenix > Feather wand. Wouldn't that be an interesting twist to the plot. > > As far as his grandmother, she really irritates me. I have speculated > that they might let Harry out of Privet Drive for an afternoon, day, > or weekend now and then, rather than leave him alone until two weeks > before the end of summer holiday. One good day trip would be Harry, > Ron, and Hermione going to Neville's house to have a joint > Harry/Neville birthday party. I envision, Grandma Longbottom starting > to put Neville down again over tea, at which time our heroic trio take > it upon themselves to set grandma straight about Neville. I think > grandma might be surprised to hear how well and how bravely Neville > fought against the DE when they were out numbered 2-to-1. > > Addition, rambling thought. > Since Neville crammed Hermione's wand into the Death Eater's eye and > saved Harry, does that count as a 'life saving', and therefore, a life > debt? > > Sorry, I know that didn't add much, but it was fun. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Me: madeyesgal Oh, dear... I really do need to begin some extra curricular reading. I guess I'm a bit more like Ron in that area than Hermoine. I've been hanging out in the HP books 1-5 as my only real source of information. (read them for the 1st time 4 weeks ago) Thanks for setting me straight on the wand issue. As for Neville's grandmother...well, I believe she's much misunderstood. I still stand by my theory that she's deliberately turned Neville into the self-conscious, bumbling, inept and forgetful boy he is. I don't believe his parents were tortured in order to find out where LV was. I believe they were protecting Neville. It's going to take JKR's story telling in books 6 & 7 to convince me otherwise. Neville,in spite of his grandmother's best efforts, is exhibiting exactly why the Sorting Hat put him into Gryffindor. How does the quote go? "A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet...?" Neville's smelling sweeter all the time! (BTW this is coming from a grandmother...I would do anything, ANYTHING, to save the lives of my grandchildren. I chose to retire early to become their daycare provider, so I live with them on a daily basis. If it were in my power to protect them with magic, I would without hesitation. If you look at Neville's "gran" from her point of view, you might be willing to cut her some slack.) madeyesgal From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 00:49:13 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:49:13 -0000 Subject: Wands and Other Stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Genevieve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" > wrote: > > Has there been any speculation about what happened to James' and > > Lily's wands after they were killed? ...edited... > > > > Mhershey > > ... wondering about that myself. ...because we know that Ron used > Bill's (?) old wand ..., and Neville was using his father's old wand > .... I think there are reasons why some people use handed down > wands, but I don't think even if someone had given Harry his mum and > dad's wands, they would have worked, because as we know in the GoF, > his wand and Voldemort's wands share cores, ...edited.... > > Gen bboy_mn: Well, I certainly have wondered what happened to their wands, but more so, what happened to all of their other stuff? Where is their furniture, their clothes, their personal possessions, their keepsakes, their mementos, picture albums, jewlery, their wedding rings, etc... As long as we are on the subject, where are their graves? What happened to their house, was it just damaged, or was it truly reduced to useless rubble? Could it be rebuilt? Was it rebuilt? Was it really their house or was it a rental? If it was their house, does that mean it's now Harry's house? ...mansion? ...manor? ...land estate? ...traditional Potter family home or residence of a young married couple? Is there a traditional Potter family home? ...mansion? ...manor? ...land estate? These could be the kinds of things that a young boy never thinks of, but Harry's not such a young boy anymore, and I have to believe at some point he is going to want the answers to these questions? Part of the problem is he's never had access to any one knowledgable person long enough to establish a relationship that would lead to this conversation. Give that Sirius is gone, the only available persons I can think of are Lupin and/or Dumbledore. Of the two, I would suspect that Lupin knew more intimate details of Harry's parents lives, but Dumbledore on the other hand could have more intimated details of their deaths and the aftermath. Question... Questions.... so many questions and so few answers. bboy_mn From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 00:48:47 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 17:48:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Kreacher knows References: <20030801003407.68819.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74514 Owlery2003: Good points, and though he can't reveal the location of #12 Grimmauld (the secret keeper thing), he's under no constraint to not talk about the "filth" and "half breeds" using the property. Snape's cover would seem blown, too, not to mention the Order's Ministry moles. Unfortunately, that damage is probably already done. Somehow, Kreacher's got to go, and at that point, Harry will need a dedicated house elf . . . hmmmm . . . any possible candidates for that job . . . Dan: Is there canon for the idea that Kreacher is free to go now that the Blacks are all dead? Or is he still bound to the house? Thus, whoever inherits the house, gets Kreacher? -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rachrobins at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 01:07:09 2003 From: rachrobins at hotmail.com (Rach) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:07:09 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74515 Owlery2003: >>> Good points, and though he can't reveal the location of #12 Grimmauld (the secret keeper thing), he's under no constraint to not talk about the "filth" and "half breeds" using the property. Snape's cover would seem blown, too, not to mention the Order's Ministry moles. Unfortunately, that damage is probably already done. Somehow, Kreacher's got to go, and at that point, Harry will need a dedicated house elf . . . hmmmm . . . any possible candidates for that job . . . >>> Dan: >>> Is there canon for the idea that Kreacher is free to go now that the Blacks are all dead? Or is he still bound to the house? Thus, whoever inherits the house, gets Kreacher? >>> Winky still seems to be tied to the Crouches (at least in some guilt ridden emotional way) and does not accept that she is now a Howgarts House Elf - so Kreacher may not be free of the Blacks. Perhaps he would just continue to live in the house taking orders from the portrait of Sirius' mother as he did while Sirius was in Azkaban. I guess he could also go to Narcissa - the Malfoys would be needing a house elf now Dobby is gone. rachel From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 1 01:11:06 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:11:06 -0000 Subject: Snape, Sirius, and 'moral codes' Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > From: M.Clifford > Ahem. > "He (Harry) had just turned away when he heard a smashing > noise................Snape was surveying him with a look of gloating > pleasure. "Whoops." He said softly. "Another zero then Potter."..." > Snape does *not* grade fairly. > > > Valky > > --- > Or it could be another example of Snape playing Dumbledore's game. Dumbledore has realised that he cannot show Harry any kind of friendlyness or favouritism, because of the link between HP and LV. Snape has already risked his cover as Dumbledore's spy over protecting Harry. << Giving Harry a grade for work turned in in the classroom does not constitute friendliness or favoritistm. It's the minimum requirement (or at least it should be) for a teacher performing his professional duty. And I find the claim that Snape needs to be grossly unfair to Harry, 24/7, in order to maintain his cover to be highly unrealistic. Is Voldemort really going to say, "Gosh, Snape has tried to prevent Quirrel from stealing the Stone, failed to show up at the graveyard when I summoned all my Death Eaters, and has generally been living in Dumbledore's back pocket for the last 15 years. But hey, he's mean to Harry Potter, so he can't possibly be disloyal to me!" Snape isn't undercover as an annoying git, he's undercover as a genocidal terrorist. I don't know what the heck he's doing to maintain his cover, but whatever it is, it's got to be a heck of a lot bigger and more convincing then petty harassment of a student. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 1 01:15:03 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:15:03 -0000 Subject: Fudge and Gringotts In-Reply-To: <20030801004132.71029.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > Good comparison and I agree. Sorry to nitpick, though - I think it was Mussolini who was said to have made the (notoriously late) Italian trains run on time! (the analogy is the same). > Oh, yes, you're right, it WAS Mussolini. As you say, though, the idea was the same - both dictators were seen as men who could get things done and solve problems. Wanda From ereturtle18 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:18:14 2003 From: ereturtle18 at yahoo.com (ereturtle18) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:18:14 -0000 Subject: Worse than death (was Re: re:Some theories I wanted to bounce of of everyone. ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whimsyflower" wrote: > I've wondered what Dumbledore could be referring to when he said there's > something "worse than death." > > Whimsyflower ereturtle18: In PoA, Lupin said the dementor's kiss was worse than death. Maybe what Dumbledore meant was inability to love or experience joy. You certainly can't do either if you've been kissed by a dementor, can you? ereturtle18 ^--^ who tried to make a wolf's face but found it very \''/ difficult \/ From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:19:08 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:19:08 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74519 > Dan: > >>> Is there canon for the idea that Kreacher is free to go now that > the Blacks are all dead? Or is he still bound to the house? Thus, > whoever inherits the house, gets Kreacher? >>> > "Rach" wrote: > Winky still seems to be tied to the Crouches (at least in some guilt > ridden emotional way) and does not accept that she is now a Howgarts > House Elf - so Kreacher may not be free of the Blacks. > > Perhaps he would just continue to live in the house taking orders > from the portrait of Sirius' mother as he did while Sirius was in > Azkaban. I guess he could also go to Narcissa - the Malfoys would be > needing a house elf now Dobby is gone. Yes! That's great! Kreacher will work for the Malfoys! Awesome! Personally, I think Narcissa is the slimest of all the Malfoys. But then again, I could be biased. -Debbie Leader of L.I.P.S. - Lucius Is Personally Sexy :-) From chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:21:51 2003 From: chrisnlorrie at yahoo.com (alora) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:21:51 -0000 Subject: Harry and anger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74520 Okay, I don't have my UK edition with me, or the American one, so please be patient with me. In OotP, when Harry is in the Gryffindor common room studying up on potions, remember what he was reading? Something about a potion that causes anger. He kept reading a line, drifting off, reading a line....Is it possible that someone could be feeding him that potion? The first time I read it, I wondered, "Why is this in here?" Maybe for future use? Out of all of the posts since OotP came out, I know someone has already discussed this. If you all have, please point me in the right direction! :) Thanks, Alora From rachrobins at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 01:26:39 2003 From: rachrobins at hotmail.com (Rach) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:26:39 -0000 Subject: Was Whats to Come - now Trelawney's Prediction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74521 portrait_of_mrs_black" wrote in response to (??): >>> i) if there will be another prophesy, otherwise they would have gotten rid of Trelawney >>> >>we've had enough of prophecies so far, i hope there are no more. it would all become too mixed up - and the books are supposed to be *for children* you know well, nevermind:) >> I think Trelawney will definatley stay at Hogwarts. Dumbledore can't afford to have her fall into DE's hands as she is the only other person who LV knows can tell him the rest of the prophecy. She would be very well protected I imagine. rachel From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:32:44 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:32:44 -0000 Subject: Forever Wicked? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74522 "sleepingblyx" wrote: > Do any of you think that there will ever be a character in Slytherin > House who steps out of the shadows to be a friend to Harry? > > Does anyone think that someone from Slytherin will ever emerge as a > hero? Who would you pick? Man - you all who answered already stole my thunder. >Ariadne wrote: > I'm wondering about the Slytherin who could see the thestrals with > Harry and Neville--who is he, why could he see them, and will this >be important for the future? Very interesting.... This is exactly what I thought too!!! >"Danger Mouse" wrote: > -Dan, who wishes Draco was like he is in fanfiction (*cough* Draco Dormiens/Sinister/Veritas *cough*) Don't we all, Danger Mouse (which is a great cartoon, by the way. Loved the line "Come away, Penfold"). >"Wendy St John" wrote: > Okay, here's my theory: > I think it's Blaise Zabini, who got sorted into Slytherin in Harry's first > year. I also think > he's going to turn out to be the "good Slytherin," I like your theory a lot Wendy, but doesn't Harry know Blaise? So he can't be the Thestral guy. Otherwise than that, I like your theory. So now, because I responded too late, I don't sound like I had an original idea. :-( -Debbie From salsal19 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:34:47 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:34:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Happy Birthday Harry! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030801013447.78041.qmail@web80502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74523 Happy birthday Harry! yes 23 would be correct cuz he was born in 1980! (just like me!) but then in 1991 he was 11 so that makes sense right? mhershey2001 wrote:Can't believe I am the first to mention it, doesn't the poor guy have enough of a complex about people forgetting his birthday? :) I think he is now 23? Mhershey Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. "Don't quit when the tide is lowest,for it's just about to turn;Don't quit over doubts and questions, for there's something you may learn. Don't quit when the night is darkest, for it's just a while 'til dawn; don't quit when you've run the farthest,for the race is almost won. Don't quit when the hill is steepest, for your goal is almost nigh;Don't quit,for you're not a failure until you fail to try"-Jill Wolf --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:37:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:37:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's mistakes -Occlumency In-Reply-To: <00d401c35787$c385e780$4d9dcdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74524 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > ... I keep noticing mistakes Dumbledore has made. ... > > ...edited... > > 2) Not telling Harry specifically why he wanted him to study Occlumency. Big mistake. Snape's "because Dumbledore said so" reasoning isn't enough for Harry, ... > > ...edited... > > Richelle bboy_mn: Actually, Snape did tell Harry exactly why he should study Occlumency, but Harry's emotions and intense dislike for Snape distracted him and it never really sunk in. ---OoP Am Ed HB Pg 533--- (Snape is speaking) "The important point is that the Dark Lord is now aware that you are gaining access to his thoughts and feelings. He has also deduced that the process is likely to work in reverse; that is to say, he has realized that he might be able to access your thoughts and feelings in return--" "And he might try and make me do things?" asked Harry ... "He might," said Snape, sounding cold and unconcerned. "Which brings us back to Occlumency." ---end quote--- You see, Harry actually said it himself, but the animosity between the two of them is so intense that it really doesn't sink in. The only thing Harry notices is that Snape is cold and unconcerned, like he could care less if Voldemort gained access to Harry's thoughts or made him do things. This doesn't give Harry much confidence that Snape is truly trying to help him. While Snape may be very qualified and adept at Occlumency, having him teach Harry is like putting to mad dogs in a cage and asking them to play nice. It just isn't going to work. On one hand, Harry does give sign that he can do this, and there may be some advantage to learning under high stress circumstances. That would certainly give you the ability to resist mental intrusion at the hands of Voldemort or the DE's, but it doesn't strike me as the fastest or most effective way to do it. Harry is not going to be in a high stress environment before he goes to bed every night. So, teaching Harry in a less emotionally charge atmosphere would have probably allowed him to become functional faster. That would have solved the immediate problem. Then they could have practiced from there until Harry got good enough to resist under stress. So, while Snape's methods might have been very effective in the long run, they really didn't have time for a 'long run' approach. On the other hand, other than Dumbledore, who, while accessible, is very busy with other things; Voldemort, the Order, Umbridge, the school, the Ministry, etc.... I think on top of not wanting Voldemort to see how close Harry was to Dumbledore, Dumbledore a very full plate. So who does that leave other than Snape? Who could have, would have, and should have taught Harry instead? Snape is at school, he is readily accessible, he and Harry can interact without causing suspicion, and Snape is good at Occlumency. The only other person I can think of is Moody, but we really don't know how good he is at Occlumency. He must have some functional ability to have been a sucessful Auror for so many years, but we know Snape is capable of regularly fooling Voldemort and the DE's, so he must be really good. Conclusion: I agree that putting Snape and Harry together was asking for trouble, but what were the alternatives? Just a thought. bboy_mn From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 01:35:06 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:35:06 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Was Whats to Come - now Trelawney's Prediction References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74525 Rachel I think Trelawney will definatley stay at Hogwarts. Dumbledore can't afford to have her fall into DE's hands as she is the only other person who LV knows can tell him the rest of the prophecy. She would be very well protected I imagine. Dan: I doubt it. If Trelawney, or any other Seer, remembers prophecies, it would have made Much More Sense for Voldemort to just fetch her instead of breaking into the Top Secret Department of Mysteries and psychically manipulating Harry, etc. There was a lot of time there when Dumbledore was gone from the school (where was he? HQ?), and Voldemort was able to crack Gringott's top security vault. I don't know... Lord Thingy might just not be All That Bright, but he's come up with some incredibly complex plans that border on the excessive if Trelawney did, in fact, know the Prophecies she's made, on some subconscious level. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lizcrosssmith at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:40:45 2003 From: lizcrosssmith at yahoo.com (Liz) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:40:45 -0000 Subject: Why don't they brake or take the wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > Fran: > > What I do not understand is why wands break so easily....can anyone > > shed some light on this? > > > > Dan: > > Well, they are wood, after all. And they're rather long, so it > would be rather easy to do. > > -Dan > > > Yes, I know they are wood.....but why aren't they magiked some way so > they dont break as easily. As important as a wand is to a > wizard/witch, I would think they would be more durable! > Fran Fran, I think this question comes back to the whole "plot wouldn't be the same if it wasn't that way" answer. There are a lot of things like that. As you suggest, were I a witch, I would have someone else put an unbreakable charm on my wand. I would also put unbreakable charms on a lot of other things. Heck, half my house would be "unbreakable", but then I've live through the toddler years with a child we nicknamed "Siva Baby" (as in Siva the destroyer). This same answer applies to questions like, "Does Mrs. Weasley not know the 'reparo' charm? Why else would Ron's bedspread have a rip in it?" And other Mrs. Weasley questions like, "Why doesn't she learn some sewing charms and make their clothes and robes if they're always so broke?" Obviously, I was getting a little irked about this sort of thing for a while. Now I just take deep calming breaths and remind myself that it's JKR's world and she can do as she darn well pleases to help move the story along, make points or set the mood. It doesn't help, mind you. I still get irked. I mean for heaven's sake, why are invisibility cloaks rare and expensive if Fred & George can whip up an invisibility hat in their dorm room? And if you're a muggle and you've never even heard of the wizarding world, would you let your son turn down Eaton to go to some mystery school you've never heard of and don't know where it is? I could go on, but I'll just get worked up. Liz From southernscotland at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:40:41 2003 From: southernscotland at yahoo.com (\lila phillips) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 18:40:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: What's On Topic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030801014041.15189.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74527 Thanks, Pippin, but what are you talking about? Is there another interview out there I haven't seen? I've not been on the Main List for a couple months due to Real Life, but am still interested! lilahp --- pippin_999 wrote: > Greetings from Hexquarters! > > > There's been some recent discussion of what's on > topic and > what's not. Our posting guidelines state that this > list is for > discussion of the HP books and the -Movie list is > for discussion > of the Warner Brothers films. But when JKR herself > connects the > movies and the books in a single interview, what's a > poor > listmember to do? > > > We'd like to ask you to use your common sense here. > We don't > want to deprive anyone of the fun of trying to guess > what episode > in CoS JKR could have meant. But please keep your > speculations centered on the books rather than the > movies. > > > Also, we know that discussions tend to repeat > themselves on > the list. Do we ever! But it's perfectly okay to > bring a topic up > again (and again!) as long as you're not just > repeating a > question from the VFAQ. There's no need to > apologize. On the > other hand, just because you can't stand to read > another word > about Ginny's crush on the Giant Squid doesn't mean > that > everyone else has to feel the same way. Simply > ignore those > posts and concentrate on the ones that interest you. > > Magically yours, > The List Administration Team > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:42:10 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:42:10 -0000 Subject: Destruction of Potter House (was ESE Lupin ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" > wrote: > > Ok, I've read some of the ESE!Lupin topics, and I'm very intrigued. There's gotta be a big betrayal somewhere in the last two books, and Lupin seems to fit the bill. I have a couple questions before I jump on the bandwagon, though. 1 - Book 5: Why did Lupin prevent Harry from going through the veil? I think that's tied in to Lupin's greatest fear being the Prophecy. The last time a piece of Death Magic failed to destroy Harry Potter, it blasted a whole house into ruin. We do not know that the Death Magic (your phrase) or its failure to kill Harry blasted the house into ruin. We truly do not know what happened after Voldemort attacked the Potter household. In reality some of the greatest mysteries about the HP epic are what happened the night Harry's parents died. For example, why was the house destroyed? In every other instance where we have witnessed Avadra Kedavra the spell was a direct hit with no collateral destruction. So why destroy the house? Where did Hagrid take Harry in between the killings in the evening and delivering him to the Dursley's the next evening? There is a missing 12+ hours. How did the Wizarding World know what had happened between Voldemort and the Potters so quickly, and in such detail? They were celebrating just hours later. Surely, the original Order of the Phoenix and Dumbledore would have wanted to keeep a hush on things long enough to do spin control, guard against DEs attacking members while looking for V., etc. Voldemort says he killed Harry's father first, but Voldemort lies-so can we beleive him? Too, in the original printing of GOF Harry's father comes out first and says his mother is coming-which means JKR and editors think (or know) that Lily was really killed first. So what happened after her death? If her love protected Harry and the rebounding curse annihiliated Voldemort, then James would have been alive. But, clearly he is not around-so where is he? Is he dead? Is he switched into another's body? Was the house destroyed because a second wave of attacks came from an unexpected direction (Lupin, perhaps?) Maybe he and James dueled? Maybe it was a full moon and Lupin transformed? Who found Harry? Who notified Dumbledore? Why did McGonagall wait outside the Dursley's house for so long watching them and waiting for Dumbledore? Is she related to Harry, or perhaps just his godmother? I know this has all been posted at one time or another-but we really cannot assume that the thwarted AK curse which was intended for Harry destroyed the house-we simply do not know. Atropos Gryffin From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 1 01:44:52 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:44:52 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: <20030731232604.78534.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > Well, let me phrase my thought in another way. You're a thirteen > year old girl. Two girls that you DO NOT like by any stretch of > the imagination are dreamily talking about a guy they think is > soooooo cute.... sigh. They glance your way and say, with a > sniff, "So, what do you think of him?" You reply, almost lazily, > "Oh, I don't know. I don't think he's so great." "What do you > MEAN?? He's the dreamiest!" they squeal at you. You roll your > eyes, and make some sort of mildly insulting comment about the > object of their affection (Well, he runs like a girl), smirk to > yourself over the way their little jaws drop indignantly, and > get on with your life. Well, I don't know. I'd say if the boy in question were Chinese- American, and I made some remark about slanty eyes, I don't think it would make much difference how loudly I protested that I just didn't like the girls. I'd be in pretty deep trouble. My difficulty is not with how offensive the remark is, nor even solely with the fact that Hermione is the one saying it. It's that Rowling has written 5 books dealing with the theme of racial prejudice and how bad it is. I've followed this theme all through the books, and it's been impressed upon me that this is IMPORTANT, even though I've found Rowling's treatment of it to be a bit unimaginative and occasionally tiresome. So now I find it rather disorienting that Hermione just casually tosses off what in the wizarding world is basically a racial insult, and nothing comes of it. Nobody speaks to her, nobody comments on it, nobody even raises an eyebrow or looks troubled or surprised. I feel like Rowling is ditching one of her central themes just to provide a little comic relief, and I don't think that is allowed. She is the one in control of her material, and she could have selected any theme she wanted to build her story around. She picked this one, and I can't figure out where this inconsistency has suddenly come from. If in the next book, Hermione confronts this flaw in herself and learns from it, then it will turn out to have been an intelligent move; but I'm troubled by the way the remark just seems to drop into a black hole and causes no reaction at all. Wanda From jstuart57 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:49:29 2003 From: jstuart57 at yahoo.com (jstuart57) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:49:29 -0000 Subject: A mole in the order? was: Sirius - who is right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74530 magicroxx wrote: > > > Harry thinks "Hermione says Sirius has been acting > > > reckless" before drifting off to sleep. So Snape's comments > > > definitely brought out the recklessness in Sirius. I see no purpose > > > for this passage to be mentioned at all, unless its important. It > > > also plays into my theory that there is a mole in the order and that > > > mole is someone who 'volunteered' to be part of harry's guard. Charlie wrote: > > And, in tOotP, Mundungus Fletcher IS showing up with > > possibly-questionable ingredients for Fred & George; and a final note: > > no-one ever actually *SAW* that load of cauldron he went to see > about, > > did they? Kai wrote: > After speaking with Sirius via the fire, Harry, Ron, and Hermione have > decided to move forward with the DADA classes on the sly. Hermione has > wondered aloud about whether they can trust Sirius' judgement. > A while later, Harry is nodding off as he studies > Potions--specifically he's reading about Confusing and Befuddlement > Draughts--and makes the connection that these potions can cause > "hot-headedness and recklessness" (UK edition, p. 340). > > Perhaps this is the passage that magicroxx is referring to? > > When I read that passage, I immediately wondered if there was yet > another spy in the Order and if s/he was slowly posioning Sirius. > > If there is such a mole, I would bet that, following in the footsteps > of Peter, it would have to be someone who nobody would suspect. > Someone completely innocuous or considered to be harmless or someone > who could seamlessly blend into the surroundings. Tonks perhaps? JoAnn: Poison, eh? Hmmm. Who could it be? Who knows all about that kind of stuff? Snape is apparently in and out of Grimmauld Place all the time and he is, after all, the potions master. Snape can't seem to get past his teenaged history, not enough to teach Harry Occlumency, and not enough to be above taunting Black (the kitchen table scene). Why not slip his old nemesis a little potion? Nothing to kill him outright, of course, but just a little something to enhance Black's "insanity," to make him more miserable. It wouldn't necessarily inconvenience the Order too much since all Black seems to do is sit around the house and mope anyway. (No offense, Sirius fans; I'm thinking Snape thoughts.) Snape might even be thinking so much the better if Sirius goes off and gets himself killed, but I hope not. True, Snape's a git, but I dearly hope he's a redeemed git. At any rate, Black's erratic mental condition could easily be chalked up to post-dementor stress syndrome or something and not necessarily poison/potion. Good alibi, that. Nicely Slytherin. I did wonder if Sirius was being poisoned when I read those scenes as well and it would be just like JKR to pull the rug out from under us with something like this. We've been warned not to trust Snape or get to liking him too much. 'Course, JKR does like to throw us off track... JoAnn From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 01:56:43 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:56:43 -0000 Subject: Why Potter house was destroyed 15 years ago Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74531 As previously posted, I have been converted to the theory that James Potter and Lupin had some sort of switching spell thing happening the night the Potter's died. The more I gave it some thought, it has helped explain some things never answered from that fateful evening. What if, not intentionally, but just by chance, Potter and Lupin were practicing Switching Spells. Just as they had helped each other learn to be Animagi, perhaps they regularly helped each other with NEWT level magic and beyond. For some reason they chose to work on Switching spells that evening and switched. Before anything could be done about it, Peter and Voldemort were upon them and all heck broke loose. Lupin (as James) was killed and James (as Lupin) was incapacitated, restrained, stunned, whatever. Lily was killed, then AK rebounded from Harry and Voldemort was disembodied. At this point Pettigrew transformed and ran off. The house was still in order (because AK is precise and does no collateral damage). Lupin comes to and finds baby Harry. Not knowing what has become of V. and Peter he immediately owls Dumbledore (or other order member) and then waits for assistance. But, oh no! The full moon shines through the windows, and he starts to transform. Since he is James he does not know how to handle it, he cannot control himself. He drops Harry and becomes wild/violent. He literally destroys the houseduring his transformation, then runs off knowing he may harm Harry. Knowing he would be a threat to baby Harry, he waited to return until daylight, along with Dumbledore, Hagrid, etc. Not knowing what exactly has happened to V. and knowing that angry death eaters may be looking for him, it is decided that he must go into hiding. Harry because of his mother's protection and "old magic" must go to "her" family. This could explain the destroyed house and also the delay of several hours before getting Harry to the Dursleys. Just my thoughts-those of you who regularly ridicule and or hate the "Switch" theory-please be kind and gentle while you crush me! Atropos Gryffin From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 02:00:26 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:00:26 -0000 Subject: Why don't they brake or take the wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74532 Liz - you totally crack me up!!! Yes, I have similar questions. However, to answer one or two of your questions... it took Hermione a lot of time before her knitted hats started looking like hats - and that's with magic. Perhaps Mrs. Weasley just never had time to learn to sew. We know she can knit, but maybe sewing isn't her forte. As for the "unbreakable" spell, why use it when you can "reparo" it? And along those lines, perhaps you only get so many "reparo" and "unbreakable" spells you can cast within a set of time. Hmmm... maybe I've been listening to my computer game playing husband too often now. As for Ron's bedspread... maybe it's a muggle bedspread and can't be fixed that way? No, that's not right, Hermione can fix Harry's muggle glasses. Hmm... maybe since Mrs. Weasley can't sew it won't work right? No, not right again...Harry can't make pottery and he was able to fix the bowl. Hmm... I know! Maybe she's nostalgic and she remembers how and when that rip occured, some cute Ron childhood moment, and so can't bear to fix it. Yah - that's the ticket! As for turning down Eaton for a mystery school, maybe they have open house day at Hogwarts for potential muggle students and parents. They just didn't bother with telling Harry about it. However, I agree more with you on that topic. Oh - the invisibility hat only last a short time, whereupon, invisibility cloaks are forever. Or do I need to check my OoP? Hope that helps somewhat! Actually, I'm more with you. I just go with JKR's flow, even tho some of it is irkingish. Or I just lie to myself and read on, as you can tell. -Debbie "Liz" wrote: > I think this question comes back to the whole "plot wouldn't be the > same if it wasn't that way" answer. There are a lot of things like > that. As you suggest, were I a witch, I would have someone else put > an unbreakable charm on my wand. I would also put unbreakable charms > on a lot of other things. Heck, half my house would > be "unbreakable", but then I've live through the toddler years with a > child we nicknamed "Siva Baby" (as in Siva the destroyer). > > This same answer applies to questions like, "Does Mrs. Weasley not > know the 'reparo' charm? Why else would Ron's bedspread have a rip > in it?" And other Mrs. Weasley questions like, "Why doesn't she > learn some sewing charms and make their clothes and robes if they're > always so broke?" > > Obviously, I was getting a little irked about this sort of thing for > a while. Now I just take deep calming breaths and remind myself that > it's JKR's world and she can do as she darn well pleases to help move > the story along, make points or set the mood. > > It doesn't help, mind you. I still get irked. I mean for heaven's > sake, why are invisibility cloaks rare and expensive if Fred & George > can whip up an invisibility hat in their dorm room? And if you're a > muggle and you've never even heard of the wizarding world, would you > let your son turn down Eaton to go to some mystery school you've > never heard of and don't know where it is? > > I could go on, but I'll just get worked up. > > Liz From debmclain at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 02:03:05 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:03:05 -0000 Subject: A mole in the order? was: Sirius - who is right? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74533 > magicroxx wrote: > > > > Harry thinks "Hermione says Sirius has been acting > > > > reckless" before drifting off to sleep. So Snape's comments > > > > definitely brought out the recklessness in Sirius. I see no > purpose > > > > for this passage to be mentioned at all, unless its important. > It > > > > also plays into my theory that there is a mole in the order and > that > > > > mole is someone who 'volunteered' to be part of harry's guard. > > Charlie wrote: > > > And, in tOotP, Mundungus Fletcher IS showing up with > > > possibly-questionable ingredients for Fred & George; and a final > note: > > > no-one ever actually *SAW* that load of cauldron he went to see > > about, > > > did they? > > Kai wrote: > > After speaking with Sirius via the fire, Harry, Ron, and Hermione > have > > decided to move forward with the DADA classes on the sly. Hermione > has > > wondered aloud about whether they can trust Sirius' judgement. > > A while later, Harry is nodding off as he studies > > Potions--specifically he's reading about Confusing and Befuddlement > > Draughts--and makes the connection that these potions can cause > > "hot-headedness and recklessness" (UK edition, p. 340). > > > > Perhaps this is the passage that magicroxx is referring to? > > > > When I read that passage, I immediately wondered if there was yet > > another spy in the Order and if s/he was slowly posioning Sirius. > > > > If there is such a mole, I would bet that, following in the > footsteps > > of Peter, it would have to be someone who nobody would suspect. > > Someone completely innocuous or considered to be harmless or someone > > who could seamlessly blend into the surroundings. Tonks perhaps? It is so Tonks!!! I said it first on day one! Too much like Quirrell. -Debbie From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Aug 1 02:17:01 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:17:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's mistakes -Occlumency References: Message-ID: <002601c357d2$ffa70370$74a0cdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74534 bboy_mn: > Actually, Snape did tell Harry exactly why he should study Occlumency, > but Harry's emotions and intense dislike for Snape distracted him and > it never really sunk in. You're right of course. But then, Harry could've said "so pigs are going to fly in my dorm" and it wouldn't have sunk in any more in Snape's presence. :) > Conclusion: I agree that putting Snape and Harry together was asking > for trouble, but what were the alternatives? Good question. Dumbledore said he should've done it himself, but I don't quite understand how that would've worked. Could he have taught Harry without making eye contact? I suppose. It did seem to be the actual eye contact that triggered Voldemort's rage in Harry against Voldemort. Doesn't seem very practical though, to weaken Harry's mind while he's with the one person that can trigger such a reaction. As it stands we don't know anyone else capable, other than Snape and Dumbledore. But surely Dumbledore could've told Snape to chill out a little? Snape still has no reason to hate Harry. Harry has done nothing (or hadn't until he stuck his nose where it wasn't wanted in Snape's memories) to earn Snape's hatred. James did, yes. Harry is not James. Snape needs to get that through his head. Sure, Harry's a poor Potions student. No reason to hate him. Now, we are free to speculate who may be decent at Occlumancy. As you said, Moody may be. Or someone else in the Order, another Auror perhaps. Problem getting them to Hogwarts every week for lessons, though. I suppose there was no other choice than Snape. But as far as we can tell Dumbledore sees pretty much everything that goes on at Hogwarts. Does that include Harry's Occlumancy lessons? And how little he was learning? And how little effort he was putting forth? And, honestly, how little Snape was telling him *how* to clear his mind? What would happen if I were to stand over one of my first grade students and say "Subtract! Just do it! Subtract!" Nothing, probably. They would cry sooner or later, I suppose. Can't see how Harry was supposed to know how to clear his mind and build his defenses with nothing but Snape yelling at him. Richelle From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Fri Aug 1 02:12:18 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:12:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74535 Lisa G wrote: > Well, let me phrase my thought in another way. You're a thirteen > year old girl. Two girls that you DO NOT like by any stretch of > the imagination are dreamily talking about a guy they think is > soooooo cute.... sigh. They glance your way and say, with a > sniff, "So, what do you think of him?" You reply, almost lazily, > "Oh, I don't know. I don't think he's so great." "What do you > MEAN?? He's the dreamiest!" they squeal at you. You roll your > eyes, and make some sort of mildly insulting comment about the > object of their affection (Well, he runs like a girl), smirk to > yourself over the way their little jaws drop indignantly, and > get on with your life. Wanda Said: >>> So now I find it rather disorienting that Hermione just casually tosses off what in the wizarding world is basically a racial insult, and nothing comes of it. Nobody speaks to her, nobody comments on it, nobody even raises an eyebrow or looks troubled or surprised. I feel like Rowling is ditching one of her central themes just to provide a little comic relief, and I don't think that is allowed. She is the one in control of her material, and she could have selected any theme she wanted to build her story around. She picked this one, and I can't figure out where this inconsistency has suddenly come from. If in the next book, Hermione confronts this flaw in herself and learns from it, then it will turn out to have been an intelligent move; but I'm troubled by the way the remark just seems to drop into a black hole and causes no reaction at all.<<< Lady Macbeth: Feel free to ignore me if one finds my hentai mind just a bit too offensive, but I accepted the blatantly obvious meaning behind Hermione's statement - the other two are looking at Firenze as potential boyfriend/crush material and Hermione bluntly points out she's not attracted to people with four legs. >_> I don't know about the wizarding world, but in the muggle world relations with our four-legged friends seems rather taboo. (Of course that might be true in the wizarding world too...after all, there was that bit about Aberforth and inappropriate charms on a goat...) Hermione seemed to be pointing out in her rather dry and obvious fashion that Firenze may be a cute human from the waist up, but he's got four legs, hooves, a barrel-shaped body and a tail from the waist down - not exactly "ideal" or "normal" boyfriend material for most witches. Someone on this list had mentioned earlier having disgust of Hagrid because his father was a wizard and his mother a giantess, and included a statement to the effect of "how did THAT happen??" - well, at least giants seem for the most part to appear human, if rather large. If we accept that centaurs are half breeds (supported by Umbridge's statements against centaurs, and the use of the words "half breed" in reference to them in the book) then SOMEWHERE in the wizarding world a horse and a witch/wizard live in a very odd household and have difficulty explaining their children. ^_^v That said, Parvati and Lavendar might well be justified in their interest, and Hermione is just as well justified in expressing her opinion that it's NOT her kind of thing. :) And I will now leave all of you who read all of this to either scrub your brains free of the mental image or join me in writing ecchi fan fiction. :) -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Fri Aug 1 02:18:16 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:18:16 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OotP: last word of the book In-Reply-To: <20030731012643.36162.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74536 Melanie Said: >>> My Idea on the last words in the book. I will put money on it..seriously... And it all began with a little boy who had a scar.<<< Lady Macbeth: My opinion of what the last line of the last book will be: Hermione saying: "Harry, what happened to your scar?" I say this, because I remember many months ago reading an interview transcript that included this information. The line of the transcript I clearly remember was JK replying to a question about the last chapter of the last book, which she had in a sealed manila envelope in her hand at the time. It read (in part) "...MIGHT be Hermione speaking, and she is saying "Harry, what happened to your scar?" " I HAVE NOT been able find the transcript again, and until I do, I will not claim it as TRUE or CANON, which is why I stated that for now it is my OPINION. If someone else knows of the link to this transcript it would be greatly appreciated. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Aug 1 02:31:28 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:31:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote, of Hermione's strangely insensitive comment about centaurs: >My difficulty is not with how offensive the remark is, nor even solely with the fact that Hermione is the one saying it. It's that Rowling has written 5 books dealing with the theme of racial prejudice and how bad it is. I've followed this theme all through the books, and it's been impressed upon me that this is IMPORTANT, even though I've found Rowling's treatment of it to be a bit unimaginative and occasionally tiresome. So now I find it rather disorienting that Hermione just casually tosses off what in the wizarding world is basically a racial insult, and nothing comes of it. Nobody speaks to her, nobody comments on it, nobody even raises an eyebrow or looks troubled or surprised. I feel like Rowling is ditching one of her central themes just to provide a little comic relief, and I don't think that is allowed. She is the one in control of her material, and she could have selected any theme she wanted to build her story around. She picked this one, and I can't figure out where this inconsistency has suddenly come from. If in the next book, Hermione confronts this flaw in herself and learns from it, then it will turn out to have been an intelligent move; but I'm troubled by the way the remark just seems to drop into a black hole and causes no reaction at all.> Wanda, you made an excellent point. I agree with you that Hermione's comments, though coolly said, were insensitive and prejudiced. I think Hermione is also rather insensitive and prejudiced about House Elves as well and David Frankis not too long ago explained that perfectly. Bossy or not, Hermione has a problem insisting that she is right, to the point where she can be downright offensive, not to mention annoying. Perhaps she was simply being defensive about the fact that she'd be missing out on some very interesting Divination lessons, perhaps she really doesn't care for horses. Her comment was inappropriate either way. As far as JKR's intentions go, it is hard to tell what they are here. I think she is making a point about Hermione and the House Elves and how, even with her good wishes for the Elves, she is doing them a disservice by trying to force freedom on them when they may not be able to handle it. Maybe it isn't racism JKR is exploring here, but how people's ignorances or stubborness cause just as much trouble as outright "You Mudblood!" comments. We do see some consequences of Hermione's lack of understanding of centaurs later when she nearly causes disaster for Harry and for herself when she opens her big mouth and makes the centaurs very angry. When Hermione is wrong, she is soooo wrong. I wish someone would point that out to her once in a while. --jenny from ravenclaw ***** From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 1 02:10:25 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:10:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Summer References: Message-ID: <3F29CC11.8010206@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74538 dudemom_2000 wrote: > What will Harry do over this next summer? OoP opens up so many > possibilities for him over this and following summers: > > Will Harry get to visit with Hermione and her family or even go on > vacation with them? Not likely; too dangerous. > Will Harry start to question Petunia on what she knows? Probably, if he gets the chance. > Will his friends come to visit him now? Over Vernon's dead body. > Will he ever have tea with Mrs. Figg? Likely. > Maybe the house on Privet will be included in the Floo Network so > Harry can travel to see his friends. Probably not. See 2nd answer above. > Finally, will Harry finally have a Birthday Party at Privet Drive or > anywhere else? (Happy BD Harry and JKR!) Never at Privet Drive. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 1 02:06:44 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:06:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts References: <3F29887A.7040505@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: <3F29CB34.90706@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74539 Danger Mouse wrote: > Sommers: I think that was in there just because it is funny. > A lot of the humor in the books comes from turning the magical > into the mundane. The idea that if you are being haunted you > can go to court and get an injunction against the ghost is > funny, just like the idea of a government department > regulating the thickness of cauldron bottoms. I don't think > there's any more to it than that. > > Dan: Doesn't Filch complain that Dumbledore hasn't forced > Peeves out of Hogwarts? Yes. > If so, there's gotta be such a thing > as HP!exorcism Possibly, but not necessarily. I think if Dumbledore simply told Peeves to leave, he would. In Myrtle's case, I did not get the impression that any magic was used to get her to stop haunting; she was just ordered to. From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Fri Aug 1 02:30:39 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:30:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74540 Deb Said: >>> Snape has greasy hair, and so did the man in the creepy store in Knockturn Ally. And when Snape took memories out of his head, there were cobweb-like strands coming out, too. This did not happen when Dumbledore put his memories into the Pensive. Maybe there is a meaning to the greasy hair, other than just neglect. Rowling has not mentioned anything about him that suggests he is neglectful about his appearance in any other way, that I can think of. I can't imagine what it could be, though. If it had to do with the Dark side, then Lucius would have greasy hair, too. Ideas?<<< Lady Macbeth: Ok, I'm going to step forward and admit some things that for some people might count as TMI (Too Much Information). :) I sympathize with Snape's harassment about his "greasy hair" because it's a problem I suffer with, and it has NOTHING to do with not washing it. I use both shampoo and conditioner daily on my hair. On 'bad' days, washing my hair makes my hair look "dry and nice" for all of a couple hours - I was even in trouble at my last job for it once, because my hair made the management think I wasn't showering daily. (And for the record, 'washing it more often' doesn't actually help - in many instances it will only damage the hair more and make the problem worse.) "Greasy hair" can be and in my case is caused by stress and/or poor diet. Nutritional problems can also be seen in pallid or waxy skin - mine shows off in my pale skin that bruises easily. I suffer from stress and depression, and poor diet is a way of life for me - "real" food is also "real" expensive. I paid two and a half bucks for a gallon of orange juice today and paid less (a dollar and a half) for SIX LITERS of soda. When money is tight, guess which one provides me with drinks longer? And, before anyone argues that Snape eats well enough at Hogwarts, do we know where he lives all summer? Do we know how well his parents cared for/fed him? Harry's malnutrition is apparent in his skinniness - isn't it possible that figuring in Snape's figure as a teenager with what we saw of his life that his eats weren't much better? And we KNOW that whether he is a spy or not he exhibits signs of a great deal of stress, and possibly also depression (walking the halls at night, sudden mood shifts, explosive temper). It's entirely possible that simply having less-than-healthy lifestyles for most of his life can attribute to his hair's condition. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Fri Aug 1 02:48:10 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:48:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: So now I find it rather disorienting that Hermione just > casually tosses off what in the wizarding world is basically a > racial insult, and nothing comes of it. Nobody speaks to her, >nobody comments on it, nobody even raises an eyebrow or >looks troubled or surprised. Oh yes, they do. "He's not a horse, he's a Centaur!" said Lavender, sounding shocked. It isn't the first time Hermione has come out with something like this, either. In PoA ch. 17: "NO!" Hermione screamed. "Harry, don't trust him, he's been helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too--*he's a werewolf*!" (emphasis Rowling's) Try changing "werewolf" to the ethnic signifier of your choice and see how it sounds. I think Rowling is trying to show us just how insidious prejudice is. Even a well-meaning person like Hermione can fall prey to stereotyping. Pippin From meboriqua at aol.com Fri Aug 1 02:50:43 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:50:43 -0000 Subject: Forever Wicked? In-Reply-To: <410-220037431234512276@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" wrote: > The fact that Harry has been in CoMC class with him for three years now (and presumably taken Potions with him for five) and *still* doesn't know the kid's name indicates to me that Mr. Zabini (or whomever thestral guy turns out to be) has never done anything to attack or insult Harry, either on his own or in conjunction with Draco and his "gang." (And if you're thinking that maybe Harry does know his name, but JKR knows that *we* don't, so just refers to him as "stringy Slytherin boy," well, I'm not buying it. ). So, if thestral guy had ever been awful to Harry, I think Harry would know his name. And any Slytherin in Potter's year who *hasn't* given the Boy Who Lived a difficult time is definitely not living up to the standard of a true Evil Slytherin. Therefore, Blaise Zabini aka Thestral Guy must be good.> Or maybe Harry dislikes the Slytherins so much he doesn't bother to remember their names. Not knowing some kid's name is no evidence that the kid is good. Thestral Boy may not be a real baddie like Draco and his thugs, but he may be a jerk just the same. That great distaste look on his face (as I've said before) might simply be due to his disgust at Hagrid (can't blame him there), the Thestrals in general, or the fact that he knows there are some Gryffindors, including Famous Harry Potter who can also see the Thestrals. I also have to throw in again that just because this kid has seen someone die doesn't mean he's especially sensitive now. Maybe he murdered his own House Elf, or watched dear old mom and dad kill a Muggle or - well, you get my drift. As of now, I can't see a single good Slytherin out there. --jenny from ravenclaw ************************* From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Fri Aug 1 02:44:40 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:44:40 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74543 Art Said: >>> There was a moment at the Quidditch World Cup where a wizard named Archie is wearing a woman's nightgown. He protests the recommendation of a MOM official to put on pants. "I'm not putting them on," said old Arichie in indignation. "I like a healthy breeze 'round my privates, thanks." So, by wearing underwear, a teenage Snape is being a bit conservative....<<< Cindy Said : >>>From all of these descriptions, it is quite obvious that Severus Snape wears robes, a cloak, underwear and nothing else underneath. Sorry to dissapoint you, but there are no taylored trousers, or neck-high shirts, no fingerless gloves, or scarves etc... And I know why. It is simply because Snape is a wizard, not a muggle, and the fact that he wears only wizard clothes leads me to believe that he definately comes from a pureblood family, as witches or wizards who have grown up as muggles tend to wear their robes over the top of their muggle clothes, but Snape wears only robes. The fact that Snape wore only robes as a 15 year old teenager, and that he still wears only robes (and no muggle clothing underneath) probably suggests that that is what he has been wearing his whole life, with the later addition of his trademark long black cloak.This also makes him more 'wizard' to me. I cannot imagine Severus Snape, in anything that resembles muggle clothes, no matter how 'eccentric' or 'Goth' the clothing. It isn't him. He is a wizard, full stop. Wizards wear robes.<<< Lady Macbeth: These instances all corroborate the idea that I have long had - that wizards who run the chance of meeting up with Muggles, such as Ministry officials and children, wear "muggle-like" clothes in their daily work. Others who have no reason to venture into the Muggle world would not. This is also supported by a quote from the first chapter of the first book: Sorcerer's Stone, American Paperback Edition, Pg 10: -----"I know that," said Professor McGonagall irritably. "But that's no reason to lose our heads. People are being downright careless, out on the streets in broad daylight, not even dressed in Muggle clothes, swapping rumors." She threw a sharp, sideways glance at Dumbledore here, as though hoping he was going to tell her something, but he didn't, so she went on. "A fine thing it would be if, on the very day You-Know-Who seems to have disappeared at last, the Muggles found out about us all. I suppose he really _has_ gone, Dumbledore?"----- This suggests that the cloaks and "odd" clothing that Vernon had noticed were normal clothing for wizards, but that they normally wear Muggle clothing when in areas where they would come in contact with Muggles, so as to keep their race a secret. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eberte at vaeye.com Fri Aug 1 03:08:00 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:08:00 -0000 Subject: Destruction of Potter House (was ESE Lupin ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Atropos Gryffin wrote: > In reality some of the greatest mysteries about the HP epic are what > happened the night Harry's parents died. For example, why was the > house destroyed? In every other instance where we have witnessed > Avadra Kedavra the spell was a direct hit with no collateral > destruction. So why destroy the house? Me: We are told that *no one* has ever survived the Avadra Kedavra curse before except for Harry. It is certainly possible that the curse *rebounding* on Voldemort caused the damage to the house. Or perhaps Lord V and James mixed it up a bit before James was killed (blasting the furniture out of the way with "Reducto" curses, etc.) Atropos Gryffin: > Where did Hagrid take Harry in between the killings in the evening > and delivering him to the Dursley's the next evening? There is a > missing 12+ hours. How did the Wizarding World know what had > happened between Voldemort and the Potters so quickly, and in such > detail? They were celebrating just hours later. Me: Really good questions. That lost 12 hours is a mystery. Perhaps that was when Dumbledore was doing a switching spell on Harry and Neville or something. (Doubt it, but it is no more far-fetched than the Lupin-James switching spell theory). Atropos Gryffin: > Voldemort says he killed Harry's father first, but Voldemort lies- so > can we beleive him? Too, in the original printing of GOF Harry's > father comes out first and says his mother is coming-which means JKR > and editors think (or know) that Lily was really killed first. Me: Nope, sorry. That was an mistake in the first edition, admitted by all and corrected in later editions. (See FAQs.) Atropos Gryffin: > we really > cannot assume that the thwarted AK curse which was intended for Harry > destroyed the house-we simply do not know. Me: True enough. I tend to think that the destruction was from the battle before James and Lily were killed (note that the MoM was trashed a bit following Voldemort's battle with DD.) But what do I know. Elle Fudge looked from her to Dumbledore , his chest swelling. "Then you *have* been plotting against me!" he yelled. "That's right," said Dumbledore cheerfully. From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Fri Aug 1 03:02:12 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:02:12 -0500 Subject: Wizard Lifespans (Was: Re: Who Could Kill Dumbledore?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74545 Dominik Said: >>>Yes, JK has stated that in one of her interviews (dunno which), but I also think that wizards usually don`t live that long. In OOP McGonnagal is considered to be not the youngest anymore (in health terms) and she is in her 70. I believe that wizards live up to around 100 maybe 110, but don`t get much older. I?m pretty certain that DD somehow extends his life. <<< Lady Macbeth: I think this is the interview you were referring to when you said that JK stated that wizards have a longer life expectancy (which she did): http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript1.htm It is my opinion that wizards have approximately twice the normal life of Muggles. It's also seemed to me from book descriptions that they seem to age at about half-rate as well once they reach maturity (which was why to me many of the characters in the movies looked "old" for their parts). McGonagall would have been approximately 75 years old in Order of the Phoenix (give or take) which, by my theory, would have made her 38-40ish physically (in relation to Muggles). While for the most part this isn't considered "old", it's also not considered "young" - certainly not young enough to take four stunners to the chest. (It may also explain why Snape, Black, Lupin & Co at times seem to exhibit endurance and attitudes of 17 year olds >_>) I am guessing that wizards generally live to be 160-200 years old, with some surpassing the 200 mark off and on. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 03:15:55 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:15:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's Blues (filk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74546 <<< "Caius Marcius" wrote: My first Sondheim OOP Filk (just in time for Harry's birthday)>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Fabulous! And *that's* how you tell Harry Potter for Grownups from the rest: Sondheim FILKs! --JDR From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Fri Aug 1 03:11:21 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:11:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forever Wicked? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74547 Jenny Said: >>> That great distaste look on his face (as I've said before) might simply be due to his disgust at Hagrid (can't blame him there), the Thestrals in general, or the fact that he knows there are some Gryffindors, including Famous Harry Potter who can also see the Thestrals. I also have to throw in again that just because this kid has seen someone die doesn't mean he's especially sensitive now. Maybe he murdered his own House Elf, or watched dear old mom and dad kill a Muggle or - well, you get my drift. <<< Lady Macbeth: It could have also been due to a weak stomach for seeing bloody meat torn apart. Just because he's a boy, or a Slytherin, doesn't mean he can handle the sight of "blood and gore" any more than some of the "prettiest, faintest girls" who can't handle a papercut. I know several grown men who freak out at the sight of blood, my husband being one of them. There's nothing that says "all Slytherins are bad", and we've been shown time and again that Ron's opinion of "Everyone who ever went bad was in Slytherin" was also wrong. It's entirely possible that this is just an average boy who never merited Harry's attention before because he was a Slytherin, and at this instance Harry saw him at a weak moment. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 03:21:33 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:21:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Forever Wicked? Message-ID: <410-2200385132133371@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74548 >"Wendy St John" wrote: > Okay, here's my theory: > I think it's Blaise Zabini, who got sorted into Slytherin in Harry's first > year. I also think > he's going to turn out to be the "good Slytherin," To which Debbie replied: "I like your theory a lot Wendy, but doesn't Harry know Blaise? So he can't be the Thestral guy. Otherwise than that, I like your theory." Now me (Wendy) again: I don't think Harry does know Blaise. The only time I remember Blaise being mentioned was at the sorting, and we really only hear the name very incidentally. In fact, it's very likely that it didn't even register in Harry's brain: PS, "The Sorting Hat," pg 91, UK hardcover: "Well done, Ron, excellent," said Percy Weasley pompously across Harry as "Zabini, Blaise ,"was made a Slytherin." >From the way this is written, it's not even clear whether or not Harry heard the name or was paying attention at all to what was happening. Sounds more like background "noise" to me. I can't remember another specific mention of Blaise in the books, but I'm afraid that there might be a mention of the name and I just can't remember where. Does anyone else know for certain? If anyone else has Blaise Zabini canon to add, that could make a big difference. Because I agree with you, Debbie, that if Harry knows Blaise, my theory is pretty much blown. But I still don't think Harry does know him, which means my theory's still good. (Well, maybe "good" isn't quite the right word. Not wholly ridiculous might be a better way to describe it ). An aside: whether or not thestral guy is Blaise, I find it very odd that Harry has been in at least one class with this person for the past five years and doesn't know his name. Very odd. I knew the name of every student I shared a class with by name when I was Harry's age. I won't go into this here, as I posted a longer message on this a while back. If you're interested, here it is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/73224 To wrap up, unless someone has some canon that shows Harry to definitely know Blaise Zabini by name, I say he's thestral guy, and a potentially good Slytherin, as well. :-) Wendy From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 03:22:33 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:22:33 -0000 Subject: Mudblood In-Reply-To: <20030725012929.27561.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74549 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > James Redmont: > > > > Where in cannon does it say that MUDBLOOD means BOTH > > parents are > > > > muggles? And if you're a half-blood: one magical parent > > and one > > > > muggle parent ... wouldn't this qualify you for the > > (derogatory) > > > > mudblood label? > > > > > > > > Magical Parent1 + Magical Parent2 = "pure-blood" > > > > Magical Parent1 + Muggle Parent2 = "mudblood" or > > "half-blood" > > > > Muggle Parent1 + Muggle Parent2 = "mudblood" > > As a life-long horse geek, the first comparison that came to > mind was with horse breeding. You can have a registered purebred > Arabian, cross it with a Thoroughbred, and you have an > Anglo-Arab. If the Anglo and an Arab get together, you have a > 3/4 Arab. You can keep breeding the product to Arabs, but it > will always be classified as only a part Arab.... I've seen ads > which state, loud and clear, '31/32 Arab.' You can't eliminate > the non-Arab blood, just as you can't eliminate Muggle blood. > > Lisa G Me: Just had to say that I didn't write that. I must have been responding to it or something... James Redmont From qmasters at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 03:29:44 2003 From: qmasters at yahoo.com (quimbyquidditch) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:29:44 -0000 Subject: Why don't they brake or take the wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74550 > > "Liz" wrote: (big old snip) > > This same answer applies to questions like, "Does Mrs. Weasley not > > know the 'reparo' charm? Why else would Ron's bedspread have a rip > > in it?" And other Mrs. Weasley questions like, "Why doesn't she > > learn some sewing charms and make their clothes and robes if > they're > > always so broke?" (another big old snip) I go to great lengths to explain away these sort of things, so please be patient if this all seems terribly unrealistic! But we already know that Ron has a real problem asking for help (think of the broken wand in CoS--he never asked for a new one) so maybe he's never mentioned the ripped bedspread or asked for it to be fixed. We already know, through Tonks, that the householdy type spells can be difficult (or perhaps I'm assuming too much--she's obviously a talented witch since she's an auror, but either they are difficult to master or she just couldn't be bothered). Either way, it's possible Mrs. Weasley isn't very good with those spells. Plus, even if you're a witch, you'd probably still have to buy the fabric; at least in the muggle world, you don't really save any money by sewing your clothes, especially if your alternative is to buy second-hand clothes. Or maybe I'm just letting JK Rowling off easy, which I seem to do . . . quimbyquidditch From yswahl at stis.net Fri Aug 1 03:44:19 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:44:19 -0000 Subject: Ginny & Giant Squid SHIP is supported by canon {hehehe} In-Reply-To: <20030801014041.15189.qmail@web41110.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74551 ADMIN Proposed SHIP "On the other hand, just because you can't stand to read another word about Ginny's crush on the Giant Squid doesn't mean that everyone else has to feel the same way." DOn't laugh! An argument for the above SHIP can indeed be supported by canon {fodder}! As proof --- If you anagram "gillyweed, giant squid & grinch" you will get "ginny weasley, quidditch girl" ......... Not only does this super secret code suggest a possible SHIP between Ginny and the Giant Squid {sounds better than James and the Giant Peach - but I won't divulge any Snape secrets here), but it also shows that she indeed does play quidditch! The referred-to grinch doesn't appear until book 6, but i am certain JKR won't quibble about that! Speaking of which ..... an article confirming this SHIP will appear in the Quibbler shortly .... Samnanya {who is already getting an air of dottiness waiting for book 6 to arrive ) From erikal at magma.ca Fri Aug 1 05:08:28 2003 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 00:08:28 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] References: <14.1677f98e.2c5ae010@aol.com> Message-ID: <027c01c357ea$f2285880$a4a31a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 74552 I, Erika (Wolfraven) said: > I've gotten to the point where I simply don't trust JKR's interview > comments. They tend to be fairly misleading and usually novel specific. > Besides which, Rowling has no interest in telling readers what is going to > happen in the novels. She constantly drops hints about what may or may not > happen just to whet people's appetites and keep people guessing. Until she > gives a straight yes/no answer on the SHIPping front, I think all bets are > still on. Oboek8 at aol.com replied: >What about the Katie Couric interview on >NBC a while ago when Katie asked, >"So, are Harry and Hermione going to get >together?" and J.K. Rowling said, >"Harry and Hermione? No, really you think? >More like Ron and Hermione." Maybe she's >trying to lead everyone on, but I think >the books really do suggest something >is there. Love is blind, and they're both >young, so they don't realize it >yet. I'm familiar with the Katie Couric comment, though I haven't read a transcript of the interview as a whole at this point. Here's a quote from another interview, though. It's the June 19th 2003 Newsnight/BBC interview by Jeremy Paxman. JP: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that? JKR: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories - and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no-one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after 13 or 14 years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/arts/3004456.stm So here's an example of Rowling saying that she doesn't want to tell what's going to happen. Note that in the Katie Couric interview, she doesn't explicitly say there will be an R/H ship, only that it looks like there's more going on on that front. As an H/Her I read this as her being coy, trying to divert one's attention to the more obvious pairing. But again, in the Paxman interview, she says that she isn't about to make revelations and that's the one thing I believe. Why would an author give away the end of the story? Not knowing for sure is what keeps us all foaming at the mouth. I'm not trying to imply that R/H isn't a valid SHIP. I certainly think the books suggest there's something going on on Ron's end-- that's painfully clear, but, as many an H/Her has said before me, I believe Hermione's feelings remain ambiguous. I simply, and respectfully, disagree with most R/Hers' interpretation of Hermione's feelings towards Ron. As for JKR's comments they can all be seen as attempts to obfuscate, to muddy the waters further. She drops hints certainly, but it's anyone's guess as to what they really mean. After all, look at the job she did in preparation for OoP. She tells everyone that an important character is going to die. As a result everyone spent months guessing who it would be, and hardly anyone was right! It created excitement and stirred up hype certainly, but I think she also released this information to affect the way we read the book. For example, when Mr. Weasely was bitten by the snake, I was thought for a time that it was going to be him, particularly when it was mentioned that the wound was not healing properly. At other points in the book I worried about other characters including Lupin, Mrs. Weasely, and Sirius himself. The book became a guessing game because of her comment. If she hadn't announced that someone would die, I probably would bot have worried for Mr. Weasely at all; I would likely have assumed that he would be fine. And I certainly wouldn't have gotten so edgy when Hermione was pointing out how being cooped up was making Sirius unusually reckless. My point is that the comments she makes do have a specific role in that they keep us guessing, which is just what JKR wants. She'll drop hints, make vague remarks, but I don't believe she's in the habit of giving straight answers when it comes down to questions about where she's going with things. She wants to keep us guessing. And like she said, "it is fun, it is fun". It's torture, but in a good way right? (I just keep telling myself this as I imagine the long wait for books six and seven ;-) ) And about that last comment: >Love is blind, and they're both young, so >they don't realize it yet. This is exactly what many H/Hers say about our own ship ;) Happy SHIPping Erika (Wolfraven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erikal at magma.ca Fri Aug 1 05:10:08 2003 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 00:10:08 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron as a Prefect ( was : SHIPs) Message-ID: <02a301c357eb$2da49e00$a4a31a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 74553 Erika (Wolfraven) wrote: >After Umbridge's speech when >everyone is dismissed from the hall, the >Prefects are expected to >lead the first-year students. Hermione >must remind Ron of this since >he "had obviously forgotten". He proceeds >to address the first-years >as "Midgets" and when Hermione berated >him, he protests "Well, they >are, they're titchy" (Canadian ed 194). >I'd say a lack of respect for >younger students, particularly a group of >already nervous eleven-year- >olds qualifies as an example of Ron being >less than exemplary as a >Prefect. Del replied: >1. This scene takes place right at the >beginning of the year. Ron is >just beginning to learn how to be a >Prefect. He had his first Prefect >meeting barely a few hours before on board >the train. >2. He never expected to become a Prefect, >unlike Hermione. This all >came as a surprise and I guess he never >seriously took time to ponder >about what being a Prefect meant. >3. The only Prefect he knew closely was... >Percy ! And we all know he >doesn't want anything to do with Percy's >behaviour. So I guess he >could unconsciously be trying to be >exactly the opposite of Percy as >a Prefect. While Hermione, on the other >hand... Shaun Hately also replied: >Ron calling the first-years midgets could >very easily have been a way to >try and get them laughing - an extremely >good way to deal with nervous >11 years olds who are likely to be fairly >intimidated by you. It's not >something everybody could do - I'd have >mucked it up - but if you've got >a good and obvious sense of humour, which >I think Ron might, it really >can work well. >In some senses, it is important for a >prefect to respect younger >students - but you also need to help these >kids establish their place in >the school heirarchy. They need to feel >they belong to the school (and >to their House) as quickly as possible. >Ron, as a prefect, teasing them >can help with that process. It's a fine >line - it can backfire - but I >think it's quite unfair to view Ron as >disrespectful of the first years. Okay, perhaps I am being a bit hard on Ron. I admit I have a tendency to do that. Still, Ron's not known for being especially sensitive about other people's emotional needs, so I have trouble buying that he was trying to make ther first years feel better. My expereince of school is that first years always come off as a bit of a joke to the older students. This was certainly the case in high school. And even in university, I remember it being comical when one saw a first year wandering around campus with a map in his/her hand looking generally dazed and bewildered. However, I do take Del's point that Ron's only just become Prefect by this point, so I suppose he would need time to settle into the role. Shaun Hately also said: >A good prefect should >*not* be obvious. You shouldn't be able to >easily point to the things >that make somebody a good prefect. >But you will certainly know *very* rapidly >if there's a bad one around. >If Ron was a bad prefect, I would have >expected to see real signs of >that in the text, considering his close >proximity to Harry. The fact we >don't see any signs of him being a bad >prefect really does indicate a >high likelihood that he is at least >competent. Again, I was not trying to imply that Ron was exactly a bad Prefect-- certainly I'm not comparing him to Draco. Draco abuses the authority he's given; Ron in contrast seems reluctant to use his at all. But then,as has been pointed out, the only instances we see involve Fred and George. I guess we'll have to wait and see in the next book if Ron can step up to the plate now that the twins are out of the picture. Erika (Wolfraven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From scooting2win at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 04:05:55 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:05:55 -0000 Subject: OotP: last word of the book In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Melanie Said: > >>> My Idea on the last words in the book. I will put > money on it..seriously... > > And it all began with a little boy who had a scar.<<< > > > Lady Macbeth: > My opinion of what the last line of the last book will be: > > Hermione saying: "Harry, what happened to your scar?" > > I say this, because I remember many months ago reading an interview > transcript that included this information. The line of the transcript I > clearly remember was JK replying to a question about the last chapter of the > last book, which she had in a sealed manila envelope in her hand at the > time. It read (in part) "...MIGHT be Hermione speaking, and she is saying > "Harry, what happened to your scar?" " > > I HAVE NOT been able find the transcript again, and until I do, I will not > claim it as TRUE or CANON, which is why I stated that for now it is my > OPINION. If someone else knows of the link to this transcript it would be > greatly appreciated. > > -Lady Macbeth > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Me: I have already had to retract one post today so I am looking it up now on where you heard this, at www.januarymagazine.com/profiles/jkrowling.html it states that J.K. Rowling only gave three readings, so it must be one of those readings. But, I did come across an interesting interview with her, and she answers some serious questions in it, it's at www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm sorry I couldn't find the one you were wanting. Lori From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 04:15:44 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:15:44 -0700 Subject: A Good Slytherin? (Was: Forever Wicked?) Message-ID: <410-2200385141544647@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74555 "Wendy St John" (that's me) wrote: > If thestral guy had ever been awful to Harry, I think Harry would know his name. And any Slytherin in Potter's year who *hasn't* given the Boy Who Lived a difficult time is definitely not living up to the standard of a true Evil Slytherin. Therefore, Blaise Zabini aka Thestral Guy must be good.> To which jenny from ravenclaw replied: "Or maybe Harry dislikes the Slytherins so much he doesn't bother to remember their names. Not knowing some kid's name is no evidence that the kid is good. Thestral Boy may not be a real baddie like Draco and his thugs, but he may be a jerk just the same." Now me (Wendy) again: No, actually I'd say that Harry not "bothering" to know their names just because he dislikes all the Slytherins is evidence that Harry is going though life with a less-than-admirable attitude. ;-) The fact that he doesn't know Thestral Guy's name is certainly no evidence that the kid is evil, is it? And, being a jerk doesn't mean the kid is evil, either. Snape is a jerk, and he appears to be one of the "good guys." (That's my opinion anyway - I don't remember whether you've discussed your feelings about Snape, so you might feel differently about that. I do know where you stand on Harry and Hagrid, though ). I still feel my argument is sound: if Blaise had been awful to Harry, Harry would remember him. I sure as heck knew the names of all the people who were awful to me at that age. Then again, it's possible that Harry and I don't have all that much in common. I was never accused by the whole school of being the heir of Slytherin. And perhaps *all* the Slytherins have pretty much been awful to him all along, so he doesn't even bother to try and keep them straight. But I just can't get past feeling that it is *very, very* strange that Harry has been in potions class with this kid for *five years* and doesn't know his name. Has Snape *never* called on "Mr." Zabini in class? Aside from the question of whether or not Blaise could be a good Slyth, I think it says something about Harry: either he is so unobservant he doesn't notice the other students in the class, or there is something else going on in terms of his personality. Note: I am in the camp that believes the number of students in Harry's year is pretty much what we've been shown in canon, which means there are only about 20 students in that combined Gryffindor/Slytherin potions class. And I don't think it's all that difficult to remember the names of 20 kids. Again, this is just my opinion, and others may not find it strange at all. I wrote a longer message about it a while back. Here's the link, if you're interested. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/73224 So, if Harry is disliking the Slytherins "on principal" due to the fact that they're Slytherins, that doesn't say much about Harry, does it? Or maybe it's just because "they exist," (Maybe he's more like his dad than we think! ). While I don't expect Harry to bend over backwards to get to know everyone (particularly those in the rival house), it isn't fair of him to dislike someone just because they're in Slytherin. At least in my opinion, it isn't. Admittedly, this has a lot to do with my belief that there just HAVE to be good people in Slytherin. There HAVE to be, or else nothing else in the books makes any sense to me at all. From "inside" the Potterverse, if all Slytherins are known to be evil, then why not just send the kids straight to Azkaban when they get sorted there and save the world a load of trouble later? And from "outside," none of JKR's talk of choices and what-not makes any sense if approximately one quarter of the students at Hogwarts are irredeemably evil by age 11. So, if these good kids do exist within Slytherin, I'd like for Harry to at least be open to that idea, and not just blindly dislike everyone in that house based on the treatment he's had by Draco (okay, so maybe there are a few other Slytherins who've treatedly him poorly as well. Okay, maybe several. ). But my point is, if there's a kid whose actions haven't even put him on Harry's "radar," why should we assume that kid is evil just because the others are? It makes more sense to me that Harry hasn't noticed "Blaise" because a) Blaise hasn't done anything awful to Harry *and* b) Harry just assumes every kid in Slytherin is evil, so Harry hasn't noticed that Blaise is, well, actually *good*. Back to jenny: "That great distaste look on his face (as I've said before) might simply be due to his disgust at Hagrid (can't blame him there), " Wendy again: Okay, you've got me on that one. Disgust at Hagrid is definitely an appropriate reaction throughout pretty much the whole of OoP (and much of the other books, as well). BTW - does this mean that my theory that Hagrid was really a Slytherin won't do anything for you in terms of proving that there is, in fact, a good Slyth in canon? Nope? Oh well. (Just kidding. I don't have a theory about Hagrid being in Slytherin. JKR said in an interview that he's a Gryff, and I have no reason to doubt her. Please don't anyone post messages telling me what an idiot I am for thinking Hagrid was a Slyth. Although, he did come across as very dodgy in Knockturn Alley ). I happen to agree that Hagrid is a major loser. Nice guy? Sure but he needs to be sacked and sent far, far away where he can't hurt himself or anyone else. Okay - back to Harry and Thestral Guy . . . Jenny again: "I also have to throw in again that just because this kid has seen someone die doesn't mean he's especially sensitive now. Maybe he murdered his own House Elf, or watched dear old mom and dad kill a Muggle or - well, you get my drift." Now me again (Wendy): True. And my good Slytherin argument doesn't rest at all on the fact that the kid saw the thestral. It's based purely on the fact that Harry doesn't know his name. Although now that I think about it, the fact that he sees the thestrals might be seen as an indication that he's not "on the fence" one way or the other . . . it seems that he's more likely to either be already firmly entrenched in evil (i.e. murdered his own house elf), or firmly entrenched in good (i.e. having experienced the pain of losing a loved one and so taking that sort of thing very seriously - something which I believe someone like Draco, for example, does not). From there, it's just a matter of opinion which side you believe he's on. At least until Book 6 when he joins Dumbledore's Army. ;-) (Of course, if it turns out you were right all along, then he'll also be the one who betrays Dumbledore's Army in Book 7). :-) Wendy From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 04:22:16 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:22:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's fate (does he have to die?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74556 The Sergeant Majorette says: Debate has been raging over whether Harry can survive the saga with his mind and his magic intact and still maintain the literary integrity of the author. My original opinion was that he couldn't, but many people have posted time travel and dreamwalk theories that give me hope. There's a theory floating around (it's a real one, but I can't reference it properly; I haven't read science in 30 years and I refuse to start again at my age) that the concept of linear time is our human attempt to impose an order we can understand on a chaotic universe. One function of this theory is the notion that every possible universe exists simultaneously, still, like frames of a movie; the only thing that moves is your perception inhabiting one "you" after another in an endless string of nonmoving universes. And what does this have to do with Harry's fate? Simple (not): a very powerful wizard like Dumbledore could do some complex voodoo mathematics to determine what the smallest change would be to have the desired effect. He figures the most economical way to make the change would be to take this one kid and nudge him one way. If it works, he could snatch Harry back a nanosecond before he actually dies and put him back one frame before the one he came from. This way, it all *would* have really happened, Harry wouldn't remember it, and he could go on to lead a normal, happy life. --JDR From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 04:26:03 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:26:03 -0000 Subject: I Spy.... In-Reply-To: <061B45C6-C2CC-11D7-B641-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74557 Just responding to a couple of things in Kneasy's excellent post: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > At the convenience end of the range, we have, of course, the basic > invisibility cloak.Sadly, > it is not always problem free. Unreliable in the slipstream of a > broomstick, penetrated by the magic eye of Moody and Dumbledore also > seems to have a means of detection and disclosure. How many others have > magical vision? But for whatever reason, it rates low in the spy kit > catalogue. Annemehr: Did anyone else think that Snake!Voldemort could see through one when he attacked Arthur Weasley? Or did Arthur let it slip off him while he was asleep? Here are the relative snippets from OoP ch. 21: ...He was turning his head....At first glance, the corridor was empty...but no...a man was sitting on the floor ahead, his chin drooping onto his chest, his outline gleaming in the dark.... [...] But the man was stirring...a silvery cloak fell from his legs as he jumped to his feet; and Harry saw his vibrant, blurred outline towering above him, saw a wand withdrawn from a belt.... Up until I looked it up for this post, I always assumed he was seeing through the cloak, but now I wonder, did the cloak fall from Arthur's *legs* because that was all it was covering at the time? Still, Harry doesn't mention only seeing the top half of Arthur at first, either. Perhaps the cloak *was* covering him, and only parted in front and fell away from his legs as he moved them to stand, which would mean Snake!Voldemort can indeed see through it -- which would be a very important thing for Harry to remember! And didn't the Ministry wizards who came in response to Phineas Nigellus' calls wonder what Arthur was doing there with an invisibility cloak? Kneasy: > No, if you're keen on spying, you'll have to do it the old- fashioned > way. Just like Pettigrew did. He was in the Order and spied for Voldy > for a year, according to Sirius. (How did he know that? Azkaban, > probably.) If so, then he also must be favourite for the eaves- dropper > on the prophecy. Gets the gist before being ejected, toddles off to > Voldy, "Hey, boss guess what I've heard! And guess who knows where > they're hiding!" > > I never have figured out his motivation for switching sides. He claimed > it was fear, death threats, etc. Why not tell DD, go into hiding? Pettigrew may never have had time to go to Dumbledore. If he had really been spying for "a year" before James and Lily were killed, then he would have begun when Harry was three months old. Here's a scenario I think is very possible. Voldemort has heard the beginning of the prophecy and knows he's looking for babies born at the end of July whose parents have defied him three times. Perhaps he knows who's expecting a baby, but even more likely he waits to see what babies are born at the right time to the right parents (any sort of wizard-world birth notices?). Once he's identified Harry Potter as one of those, he begins looking for a way to get information on the Potter family, and he confers with some of his Death Eaters. There are certain DEs who could point him straight to Pettigrew as a hanger-on in James' circle, one who was weaker and admired James for his power and abilities, perhaps, and could possibly be "persuaded" to switch his loyalty to a much more powerful wizard -- Voldemort himself. Remember that Sirius once told Harry that Snape, while a student, ran around with a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters. Any one of these, including Snape himself, may have known Pettigrew well enough to suggest that he could be cowed and turned to Voldemort. Then all they had to do was ambush him and terrify him (Voldemort surely did that part personally), and they had a spy who was right in the Potters' circle and was too afraid for his life to think of going to Dumbledore. It would also explain Pettigrew's excuse in the Shrieking Shack, "What was there to be gained by refusing him?" It seems Voldemort had made him an offer he *couldn't* refuse. The only question remaining is that of the timing of the attack on the Potters. Why did Voldemort delay so long? Was he trying to "research" Neville and Harry rather than just trying to kill them both immediately? Exactly when was the Fidelius Charm done? Sirius said they switched the Secret Keeper to Pettigrew at the "last minute", and before I read the prophecy, I always thought that meant they did it right before the attack -- but this would mean that Voldemort waited a very long time to try for some reason. On the other hand, if the Potters went under the Fidelius Charm much earlier, either Pettigrew waited to divulge the secret, or Voldemort waited to attack. I don't, however, see any reason to think that Pettigrew was the one who heard the beginning of the prophecy and told Voldemort. He certainly couldn't have told him as soon as it happened, in any case, as that would have made him a spy for much longer than a year. Unless, of course, he was spying for much longer and nobody knew it -- a possilility I suppose we'll have to allow for. Annemehr now wondering if the events between the prophecy and Harry's arrival on the Dursleys' doorstep will ever completely be accounted for... From scooting2win at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 04:53:39 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:53:39 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: <027c01c357ea$f2285880$a4a31a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74558 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erika L." wrote: > > Happy SHIPping > > Erika (Wolfraven) > Me: Sorry, huge snip there, but earlier today, when all of this started I quoted something I thought was canon on the Ship between Ron and Hermoine. I was quite disturbed that I could not find the interview/ or canon post that I was sure that I read. Well I found it, and sure enough, JKR did say it, but she doesn't say it quite as plain as one would hope. its at www.the-leaky- cauldron/quickquotes/articles/2003/0620-dateline-couric.htm just in case anyone would like to read what was said. I really wish I could find the original article. To me she leans more towards Ron and Hermoine then to Harry and Hermoine. This IMO is because she writes Hermoine as herself, and thinks of Harry as a son. So therefore why would a mother and son be "snogging". But Ron would not be related now would he? Also in the original article, it is mentioned about the last paragraph of book seven being written, but that it is sealed and she has not given anyone access to it, neither by reading it to them or by printing it. It is sealed and in a "safe" place as she says. I just wish I would find that exact quote, this one I know for sure she made. Lori > > > From scooting2win at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 04:57:49 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:57:49 -0000 Subject: "Canon" don't shoot me. In-Reply-To: <7A06776E-C370-11D7-ADF0-000393C324F6@mac.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74559 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Charlie Moody wrote: > On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 11:49 AM, scooting2win wrote: > > > I was sitting here trying to find where I read the Ron/Hermoine > > quote from JKR. And I found it, but, I'm wrong for putting it on > > here. It was on the Lexicon, but what it said was that, the > > Ron/Hermoine Ship was more Fan work then Canon and that they "the > > publisher" would not add any Fan work to the site. I remembering > > seeing it there so I thought it was canon, and I am sorry that I was > > wrong. I retract what I said about it being said by JKR herself. > > Sorry everyone who read my post about it. I do however think that > > Ron/Hermoine will be together somewhere down the line, but now > > that's just IMO. Lori, and again I am sorry. > > *SHOOT you*, dear? Not likely! It was an honest mistake, after all - > and we ALL make them from time to time. > > In fact, I want to thank you for looking it up so promptly, and for > being so straight-forward about it. You do yourself credit. Me again: I found the reference I was thinking of/looking for its at www.the-leaky-cauldron/quickquotes/articles/2003/0620-dateline- couric.htm Now maybe I did read more into it, but it looks like she is leaning towards Ron and Hermoine not harry and hermoine, and my thought on this is that she wrote Hermoine as herself, and now feels that Harry as a son. So she wouldn't put those two together, IMO. From p51263 at aol.com Fri Aug 1 00:02:49 2003 From: p51263 at aol.com (p51263 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:02:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Summer Message-ID: <141.167d8ffe.2c5b0829@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74560 I think Harry will have several questions for Petunia and hopefully she is able to answer them for him. I also think Harry should go home to his Aunt's and Uncle house for part of the summer to keep the magic and or bond that his mom's spell to ensure his life as Dumbdorf has said the OoP. Harry always hated going or being at the Dursleys house for any lenght of time the might let him go to the Weasley's or Hermoine's home later and I might be wrong since they try to prevent him from anything. Patricia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From p51263 at aol.com Fri Aug 1 00:08:21 2003 From: p51263 at aol.com (p51263 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 20:08:21 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic Message-ID: <189.1cf45fe4.2c5b0975@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74561 I think the reason Petunia hates magic is that She has been Jealous of Lily's beauty and natural ability with magic and Lily found her soul mate in James. Petunia has been placed second in her parents eyes when Lily got her letter to Hogwarts ' Petunia said in the first book that thier parents were proud the day Lily recieved it. Patricia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From robinryder934 at netscape.net Fri Aug 1 00:07:49 2003 From: robinryder934 at netscape.net (ryderrobin) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:07:49 -0000 Subject: Squibs and Cats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: It looks to me that it is not so much that squibs have the ability > to communicate with cats, but that cats are able to recognise and > understand squibs. In other words, the ability to communicate is > inherent in the cats, not the humans. JKR hinted that cats are special in the HP world: Q: Is there something more to the cats appearing in the books than first meets the eye? (i.e. Mrs. Figg's cats, Crookshanks, Prof. McGonagall as a cat, etc.) A: Ooooo, another good question. Let's see what I can tell you without giving anything away....erm....no, can't do it, sorry. (Scholastic.com, October 16, 2000, Online Chat) Pruneau From yswahl at stis.net Fri Aug 1 05:19:55 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 05:19:55 -0000 Subject: Why Potter house was destroyed 15 years ago In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" wrote: As previously posted, I have been converted to the theory that James Potter and Lupin had some sort of switching spell thing happening the night the Potter's died. The more I gave it some thought, it has helped explain some things never answered from that fateful evening. I thought that the Switch theory could explain a lot of Lupin's reactions when he taught Harry how to conjure a patronus (POA-CH 12- The Petronus especially pgs 241-242 trade paperback edition).... I always felt that Lupin was holding back something that he could not or would not explain to Harry .... While trying to conjure up the patronus Harry hears - a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking - "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off -" then when he tells Lupin that he heard his dad, JKR describes Lupin's reaction as - You heard James?" said Lupin in a strange voice. "a new voice, a man's voice" which Harry assumes is his dad, though it could have been anyone - he never SAW his dad or mom in this scene... That fact alone was not a cause for pause until I came to the line - "said Lupin in a strange voice" -- an odd choice of words in a situation that JKR is usually very careful with her choice of them. And of course Lupin then changes the subject asap... Thats when I began to feel that the Switch theory had validity. The main argument against the Switch theory (imho) is the wand scene at the graveyard in GOF -- everyone who came out of V's wand was unmistakeably dead and also talked to Harry including his father who said (GOF pg 668 - american HC ed) "your mother's coming..." ... and "Do it now," whispered his father's voice, "be ready to run ... do it now..." I noticed that Harry didn't stop in mid-battle with LV and say to his dad "Hey! You LOOK like my dad but you sure don't SOUND like my dad!" - which one of the voices in my head tells me that James is indeed dead...... of course with JKR you cant be sure..... and one theory is as supportable as the next... Just my thoughts-those of you who regularly ridicule and or hate the "Switch" theory-please be kind and gentle while you crush me! Atropos Gryffin don't be silly .... this is a friendly forum .... just remember that if Ginny/Squid SHIP is possible then anything is ! -- one of the voices in Samnanya's head From cleo462 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 00:44:28 2003 From: cleo462 at hotmail.com (silvercatofbast) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:44:28 -0000 Subject: What can Harry teach Hermione in DA ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > "iris_ft" wrote: > > > I will start this post by quoting Hermione, in book 1: > > "Harry, you are a great wizard, you know." > > To which Harry replies: > > "I'm not as good as you." > > And then Hermione says: > > "Me! Books! And cleverness!" > > (HP/ PS, chapt. 16, p 208) > > In those lines, Hermione recognizes that all her intellectual > > knowledge is not enough, and that Harry has something more, > > something she doesn't master herself. > > You're not going to convince me with that :-) because I've never seen > what makes Harry so different. If I had to say what I admire in him, > I'd say his resourcefulness, his ability to keep a cold head in the > heat of things. But does that make him a great wizard ? For that > matter, what exactly IS a great wizard ? If it is a particularly > magically talented person, I don't see that Harry is such a great > wizard. He's good, but nothing exceptional (except at Quidditch). So ? > But it's the resourcefulness that makes him great. Don't you remember the incident with the Devil's Snare? 'But there's no wood!' I could go on and on, but I think it all boils down to one thing - Harry has _experience_, not pratice, because Hermione wouldn't be Hermione if she didn't want to know everything about how to cast a spell, including the actual casting. As far as experience, that gives Harry two different advantages over Hermione - First, when it's students teaching students, and quite possibly many of them are older than the teacher, the teacher shouldn't be a bossy know-it-all, and Famous Harry Potter has more respect. Secound, the resourcefulness - if it's life or death, it doesn't matter if you cast a Tickle Curse or the Disarming Charm, as long as it works and you live no one cares what you use. Hermione would be intent on learning and teaching all the spells, charms, and curses known to man, but most people don't have her memory or attention span for learning. Harry knows which ones are actually practical as far as effectivness and difficulty in cast - he may not have used the spell in any incident so far, but he's more likely to veto the longer incantations because there's too much time to be interrupted by the opponent. Hermione would struggle with that idea, to happy to be learning the spell to realize that it'd be useless because the pronunciation would never come out right if you tried to hurry. In short, Hermione just likes learning, she would have trouble being as practical as Harry who is the average student and will only bother with something if he thinks it'll be useful. and since he's the resident expert amoung the students, he's the only one who anyone will surrender an argument to when it comes to opinions about praticality (not who has the most worthwhile opinion, but who is believed to). Later! From rdhdwldflwr at comcast.net Fri Aug 1 01:07:02 2003 From: rdhdwldflwr at comcast.net (Sharon) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:07:02 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape Respects Harry Now References: <67.15f00ae4.2c59d29c@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F29BD36.000007.37471@0016248096.ce1.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74565 Buttercup: > I know Snape treats Harry poorly during Potions in OOP > (giving him a 0 on his class assignment, etc.), but > during Harry's Occlemency lessons I felt like Snape > had acquired some respect for Harry. He seemed more > polite and restrained. Was this my imagination or do > you guys think this is a turning point in their > relationship? Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part. Cassie: I noticed that too. One part that really stood out for me was when Harry said "No, that's your job" referring to finding out what LV was saying to the DEs and Snape said "Yes, that is my Job." (I lent my copy of the book to someone...so I can't give an exact page number/quote) A normal Snape reaction would probably've been "That's none of your business Potter." I don't know if Respect is the right word though. I think they understand each other a bit better though. I don't think I read the same book ya'll did! I saw NO respect on Snape's part. Sharon From awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu Fri Aug 1 05:20:47 2003 From: awillia2 at gladstone.uoregon.edu (Aesha Williams) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:20:47 -0700 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? Message-ID: <005201c357ec$ab291300$b2d1df80@hppav> No: HPFGUIDX 74566 Hi Del, I posted a similar thing to the list a few weeks ago. I agree with you 100%- I don't understand why Harry felt so close and obligated to Sirius, and in fact, it makes me uncomfortable. I don't understand why Harry would be so instantly attatched to him- I just don't buy that it's that he was his parent's best friend. Lupin was one of their best friends, too, so why couldn't he go to Lupin with anything? He could have sent an owl to Lupin just as eaily, and he knew Lupin better. And it's not that their relationship grew from their sudden meeting in PoA, gradually through Sirius' demise in OoP. In the second chapter of GOF, which is less than two months after Harry and Sirius met, Sirius was the only one who he thought to ask for advice about his scar huritng- not Dumbledore, Lupin, Arthur or Molly... nor his best friends, Ron and Hermione. I just don't like it! :) Your post was good, as were your points- I appreciate you putting the same thoughts I had into a more sensical email. :) Aesha [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From readzalot at shaw.ca Fri Aug 1 01:39:27 2003 From: readzalot at shaw.ca (Deb) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:39:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's Anger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74567 << wrote: "Harry, all year, has some sort of bubbling rage inside him ... Well, I think I've come up with a possibility for it, remember in DumbleDore's office, he said that ... He thought he could see a trace of Voldemort behind Harry's eyes i.e. the connection between them.>>> Made me think (being the mother of teenagers) that is is sad/funny that it is hard to tell the difference between ordinary teenage moodiness and being possessed by Voldemort. It is a credit to Rowling's art that we can justify either position. Deb S, aka readzalot, Canada From catportkey at aol.com Fri Aug 1 01:40:26 2003 From: catportkey at aol.com (catportkey at aol.com) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:40:26 EDT Subject: Hagrid -- animal welfare activist Message-ID: <129.2ef00abe.2c5b1f0a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74568 In OotP a line was stated by Firenze " . . . he has long since earned my respect for the care he shows all living creatures." Will this kindness of Hagrid's be pushed even further or may it become detrimental to his life or others, just as people try to save a dog from drowning and end up drowning themselves? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From suewartell at netscape.net Fri Aug 1 02:11:24 2003 From: suewartell at netscape.net (Sue Wartell) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 22:11:24 -0400 Subject: Harry's anger In-Reply-To: <1059680187.15137.44602.m9@yahoogroups.com> References: <1059680187.15137.44602.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <3F29CC4C.4080700@netscape.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74569 >"tifaheart2001" said: > >Now anyone who's read OOP can tell that Harry, all year, has some >sort of bubbling rage inside him that he lets out on people, right? > Well, yes, Harry has been angry all year, and frustrated and volatile. He's 15. I've spent the past year with a 15-year-old boy, and even without all the troubles besetting Harry, he's been angry - flying into a rage over trivia, feeling misunderstood, feeling put upon, feeling as if he's being treated like a child, feeling like he's been abandoned to make his own way... And he's a very sweet and loving kid, most of the time, with family he can rely on and talk to. I remember being 15, vividly, all these years later, and would not go back for _anything_! It was, to me, one of the parts of the book that rang most true. It also meant that I needed to take occasional breaks while reading the book the first time, to come up for air. Add to that normal adolescent emotional matrix, the fear that you are being possessed, the knowledge that lots of people around you are scared of you or think you are crazy, the loss of support from several of the people you have counted on ever since starting at Hogwart's (Hagrid and Dumbledore, for different reasons), a couple of teachers who take inordinate pleasure in administering various sorts of psychological abuse... No wonder the poor kid is angry. On the other hand, I do think you have a point. Voldemort has rage and hate enough that it could very well spill over through the connection they share, and fan the flames of Harry's own anger. And then there are the flashes of killing rage that Harry experiences when V. does come closer to the surface, as when he looks at Dumbledore and wants to kill him. I think of those as a different matter though, more like when Harry finds himself in the snake attacking Arthur Weasley. I guess all I'm saying is that I don't think anything magical is required to explain Harry's anger through most of the book. I just hope he's moving into a more integrated period. So far, my kid, now 16, seems to be a little more at peace - still stressed out a lot of the time, but better able to cope. Sue From profsheryl at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 02:08:25 2003 From: profsheryl at yahoo.com (profsheryl) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 02:08:25 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shboink" wrote: > > Readers, who engage in SHIP discussions, must remember that we see > > everything from Harry's POV so we know virtually nothing events > > unless > > Harry witnessed it or was told about it. That unfortunately, leads > > often > > to assumptions that what Harry had seen is 100% full truth. > > > > Now me: > > Just a note: Even though it is true that we see *most* of the > > story/action through Harry's eyes, we don't necessarily see 100% > of > > it. He's simply the character to whom we are closest. When writing > > with a 3rd person limited omniscient POV, the author can always > still > > pull back away from the POV character to give the reader a broader > > (or different) view. > > > > Shboink, first-time poster, nervous > My reply: You did good, sh-boink, sometimes I see that we are not > seeing it from Harry's POV, alot of times I think its more all three > of them that we see the story through. Lori Delurking for first post, also nervous: But I think the POV is why Harry and Hermoine are a good possibility as a couple. If R/H get together, we won't really get to see it and "experience" it . . . unless Harry has some voyeuristic side to him that we haven't learned about yet ;) It's not like JKR is going to grant us access to private moments between R/H, and not being able to "see" that would be a bummer, in this reader's opinion. With H/H JKR could take us into as much detail as she likes, as she did with H/C. And that scene with the kiss, and the conversation with R and H afterwards served as a nice set of moments in OOTP. Sheryl From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Aug 1 02:42:45 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 21:42:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment References: Message-ID: <3F29D3A5.5090008@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74571 Lady Macbeth wrote: > Lisa G wrote: > > Well, let me phrase my thought in another way. You're a thirteen > > year old girl. Two girls that you DO NOT like by any stretch of > > the imagination are dreamily talking about a guy they think is > > soooooo cute.... sigh. They glance your way and say, with a > > sniff, "So, what do you think of him?" You reply, almost lazily, > > "Oh, I don't know. I don't think he's so great." "What do you > > MEAN?? He's the dreamiest!" they squeal at you. You roll your > > eyes, and make some sort of mildly insulting comment about the > > object of their affection (Well, he runs like a girl), smirk to > > yourself over the way their little jaws drop indignantly, and > > get on with your life. > > Wanda Said: > >>> So now I find it rather disorienting that Hermione just > casually tosses off what in the wizarding world is basically a > racial insult, and nothing comes of it. Nobody speaks to her, nobody > (snip) You forget, the wizard world in fact doesn't consider it racist. Remember that the average wizard's attitude toward other races is not a pleasant one. They don't even seem to understand the concept of slavery when it comes to the house elves. Even Dumbledore mentioned that the Wizard World doesn't treat its fellow intelligent creatures well. So Hermione's comment would not be considered racist in the Wizard World. If the Wizard World even had any care at all what a person called a centaur, they would not be keeping House Elves as slaves or S.P.E.W. would be more popular a cause. Its clear Dumbledore is right. Dumbledore or Hagrid might have said something to Hermione if he had overheard the comment, but fellow students and most wizards would not. Jazmyn From kgriffin1908 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 03:15:04 2003 From: kgriffin1908 at yahoo.com (poet1908) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:15:04 -0000 Subject: Other Implications of the Veil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74572 I hope I don't get yelled at but the veil also has some Biblical implications(maybe not for JKR). It just what I thought of when I read it. The veil in the Old Testament seperated the holy of holy places for the rest of worshipers. Only the priest could go in. If a non-priest went in, they tied a rope to him/her so they could pull them out when they died. The death was associated with the thought that it was too much to handle to go "beyond the veil." In the NT the veil was lifted because of Jesus Christ. I am sure that the people who write the good stuff about HP and Christianity have already thought of this. Poet From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 03:49:38 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:49:38 -0000 Subject: why dont they break or take wands? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74573 They do. They always take their opponent's wand. They just don't break it. Maybe breaking a wand involves a powerful curse or something. olaf, glad and big From EnsTren at aol.com Fri Aug 1 05:38:56 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 01:38:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Forever Wicked? Message-ID: <31.3c1effc6.2c5b56f0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74574 In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:20:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sleepingblyx at yahoo.com writes: > Slytherin is supposed to be the sneaky, but very great wizarding > house, and all that seems to stem from it are cartoon-like > villans ... who say something awful and then go back into the > shadows.... > > Does anyone think that someone from Slytherin will ever emerge as a > hero? Who would you pick? > > > --Blyx I agree, this tendancy in JKR's writting rather...well it pissed me of. I'm a hufflepuff but Slytherin is my favorite house! And...a Slytherin hero? I would choose the quintissensial Slytherin. Salazar himself. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 03:59:40 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 03:59:40 -0000 Subject: Why don't they brake or take the wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Debbie" wrote: > > As for the "unbreakable" spell, why use it when you can "reparo" it? > And along those lines, perhaps you only get so many "reparo" > and "unbreakable" spells you can cast within a set of time. Hmmm... > maybe I've been listening to my computer game playing husband too > often now. > "Liz" wrote: > > I think this question comes back to the whole "plot wouldn't be the > > same if it wasn't that way" answer. There are a lot of things like > > that. As you suggest, were I a witch, I would have someone else > put > > an unbreakable charm on my wand. I would also put unbreakable > charms > > on a lot of other things. hi. olaf, glad and big, here. They always take their opponents wand if they can. It seems like a wizards duel typically begins with an "expelliarmus" speed contest. If they manage to take the opponent's wand, they don't give it back. Maybe breaking a wand would bring down a curse on whoever does it, or maybe it's just good tactics to have two wands. . .anyway, broken wands still work. Hagrid (not a highly skilled wizard) used his broken wand wrapped in an umbrella to put a pig's tail on Dudley early in SS. Maybe they will post this. olaf, glad and big From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Fri Aug 1 05:44:33 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 01:44:33 EDT Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74576 In a message dated 7/31/03 9:17:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bibphile at yahoo.com writes: > I was under the impression (though I admit that I don't know why) > that only O.W.L.s counted fifth year. Basically if you pass the > test you pass even if you have straight zeros and if you fail the > test you fail even if you have straight 100's. That's what I thought too - at least, that's what I remember being told by people who understand the system. It's not Snape's grading at all at this point...it doesn't even matter what Harry gets on the potions from Snape, all that matters is what the examiners give him on his OWL. I figured that the classes are more practice for the exam (man...I wish AP classes were like this...I would've done alot better with just the exams counting! But I digress...) This, of course, brings up the question: Does Harry know that only the OWL test counts? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Band camp on Monday! Yeah...what's more fun than lugging a tuba around in the hot summer sun? Answer: Anything in the entire world. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From traiderbob_1999 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 04:22:59 2003 From: traiderbob_1999 at yahoo.com (traiderbob) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:22:59 -0000 Subject: Orbs & Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sarcasticmuppet" wrote: Ashley wrote "This theory might work if Harry actually listened to the prophecy via the orb. But he didn't--he saw it in the pensieve" Me Thanks for your reply Ashley. The pensieve brings up about as many questions as time turning. You know subjective/objective/magic. I could use a pensieve, I don't have the space for this topic. Ashley again "The Elipses are *pauses* in the prophecy for a more dramatic effect. They were in the PoA one too, remember?" Me I hope I didn't come across as rude with the grammar part. It wasn't my intension. I have read posts; I'm not sure which board, where people were having trouble with the ellipses. They were referring to four dots as an ellipsis when it is a period plus an ellipsis. I know its minor, but I would like to find a way to include more people in the prophecy. Being strict with where the periods fall is helpful. I looked at the prophecy in PoA to help me figure out how JKR uses ellipses with Trelawney. I thought they were pauses as well. That prophecy is less cryptic than the other, and the pauses are more obvious. In the older prophecy about Harry/Dark Lord the periods are less obvious. It looks like Trelawney has gotten better with practice. When I was trying to find a different way of looking at the HP/DL prophecy, I tried reading it aloud a few times, and tried changing the order of the lines. It had some cool effects. When I realized I didn't know where the prophecy started and ended, I thought it could be three. It's an outrageous idea but fun. From brainattic at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 04:52:52 2003 From: brainattic at yahoo.com (brainattic) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:52:52 -0000 Subject: Infallibility (Marauder's Map) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74578 I've been re-reading PoA and I just realised that, since Lupin used the Marauder's Map to follow Harry & co.'s movements from Hagrid's hut to the Shrieking Shack, shouldn't he have been able to see Future Harry and Future Hermione as well? Lupin says that he had an inkling that Harry & Co. would go visit Hagrid before Buckbeak was executed, so he monitored their movements all the way to Hagrid's house. But at the same time they left the house after the executioner arrived, Future Harry & Hermione (after using the Time Turner) were freeing Buckbeak. Lupin claims the Map's fairly infallible -- i.e., not to be fooled by cloaks or transformations. Wouldn't Lupin have noticed that there were four little dots moving around the periphery, two labeled Harry Potter and two labeled Hermione Granger? Or does Lupin just have extreme tunnel vision? Sorry, I know everybody's talking about OoTP right now. If this has been discussed before, can you point me to the thread? From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 04:57:07 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 04:57:07 -0000 Subject: Elixir of Life Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74579 Hi. I am Olaf, glad and big, and this is my first post. Whar I'm wondering is why, in SS, Voldemort/Quirrel didn't nip down to Devon and pinch some elixir from Nicholas Flamel? His house is probably a much easier target for a B&E job than Gringott's or Hogwarts. Even if he eventually needed the stone itself, he would have been in a much stronger position if he had a few shots of elixir under his belt. Anyone who had looked into the subject of the philosopher's stone would know that Nicholas Flamel was the one who discovered it. Obviously it would be hard to take the elixir from him by force, since it makes him immortal, but stealth and cunning would have been worth a try. thank you. Olaf, glad and big From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 05:22:24 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 05:22:24 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic In-Reply-To: <189.1cf45fe4.2c5b0975@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, p51263 at a... wrote: > I think the reason Petunia hates magic is that She has been Jealous of Lily's > beauty and natural ability with magic and Lily found her soul mate in James. > Petunia has been placed second in her parents eyes when Lily got her letter to > Hogwarts ' Petunia said in the first book that thier parents were proud the > day Lily recieved it. > Patricia > > > [ Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Hi. Olaf, glad and big here. What makes you so sure that Miss Figg is in fact a squib? I think it's possible that she is working under deep cover for the order. From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 05:41:01 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 05:41:01 -0000 Subject: why dont they break or take wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > They do. They always take their opponent's wand. They just don't break > it. Maybe breaking a wand involves a powerful curse or something. > > olaf, glad and big Also, as documented in "The Golden Bough", by J. G. Frazier, in most cultures it is assumed that a wizard can work powerful, harmful magic on his enemies if he has something that belongs to that enemy or has even touched him. Even fingernail clippings will do. Since a wand is such a personalized thing, it may be a good idea to just hold onto it in case your enemy manages to get away. Olaf, glad and big From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 05:43:31 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 05:43:31 -0000 Subject: Forever Wicked? In-Reply-To: <31.3c1effc6.2c5b56f0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74582 > In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:20:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > sleepingblyx at y... writes: > > > Slytherin is supposed to be the sneaky, but very great wizarding > > house, and all that seems to stem from it are cartoon-like > > villans ... who say something awful and then go back into the > > shadows.... > > > > Does anyone think that someone from Slytherin will ever emerge as a > > hero? Who would you pick? I have seen no evidence that Sirius Black was not in Slytherin. Olaf, glad and big From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 06:00:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:00:54 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's mistakes -Occlumency/Respect In-Reply-To: <002601c357d2$ffa70370$74a0cdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > >>> Actually, Snape did tell Harry exactly why he should study occlumency, but Harry's emotions and intense dislike for Snape distracted him and it never really sunk in. <<< > Richelle: > > You're right of course. But then, Harry could've said "so pigs are > going to fly in my dorm" and it wouldn't have sunk in any more in > Snape's presence. > :) > > > bboy_mn org: > >>> Conclusion: I agree that putting Snape and Harry together was asking for trouble, but what were the alternatives? <<< Richelle continues: > > Good question. Dumbledore said he should've done it himself, but I > don't quite understand how that would've worked. Could he have > taught Harry without making eye contact? I suppose. > bboy_mn: I had this strange vision of Dumbledore and Harry standing around Harry's bedroom at Privet Drive both wearing chrome lense aviator sunglasses, and practicing Occlumency. Don't know if it would work, but you have to admit that would be a pretty odd scene to walk in on. > Richelle continues: > > Snape still has no reason to hate Harry. Harry has done nothing (or > hadn't until he stuck his nose where it wasn't wanted in Snape's > memories) to earn Snape's hatred. James did, yes. Harry is not > James. Snape needs to get that through his head. ... > bboy_mn: I don't think it is so much that Snape hates Harry as it is just plain raw hate. He has hated so much and for so long, and to some extent rightly so, that the very sight of Harry, who looks like James, brings that hated to a boil. And like boiling water in a closed container, it/he can't take the pressure for long before that hate comes bursting out. When it does come flying out, Harry ends up being the lightening rod that attracts it. I'm not sure what Snapes problem with Neville is, but a certain amount of that raw hate seems to be drawn to him like a magnet. (did I use enough metaphors) > Richelle: > > Now, we are free to speculate who may be decent at Occlumancy. As > you said, Moody may be. Or someone else in the Order, another Auror > perhaps. Problem getting them to Hogwarts every week for lessons, > though. I suppose there was no other choice than Snape. bboy_mn: It was subtle but I think Snape and Harry have gained a deeper understanding for each other. Like Harry said, he never thought he would find himself feeling sorry for Snape, but now he does. And I'm sure Snape knew that life at the Dursley's was not pleasant, but I don't think he really understood what Harry went through until he saw it with his own eyes and felt it with his own, dare I say, heart. They say that learning to love your enemies is not about gaining an appreciate your differences, but becoming fully aware of you commonalities; fully aware of your shared experiences. I think Harry and Snape have found a common ground, a common experience, that they share. It's easy to hate your enemy when he is a stranger, but becomes much harder when you get to know him. These Occlumency lessons if nothing else have force Harry and Snape to reveal shared experiences that they otherwise would never have revealed. Snape is always going to be a mean jerk, but I think he will lighten up a bit on both Harry and Neville. I also speculate that Harry and Snape have common ground in that they not only share a history of abuse, but I think they each have a tragedy that is a defining moment in their lives. Oddly, I think that tragic defining moment is the same event for both of them. > Richelle, > What would happen if I were to stand over one of my first grade > students and say "Subtract! Just do it! Subtract!" > ... They would cry sooner or later, I suppose. ...edited... > > Richelle bboy_mn: Safe bet you would not be getting a nomination for teacher of the year, and you would not be building many happy student memories of the joy of learning. Certainly, no one who goes to Hogwarts ever forgets Professor Snape. I suspect when they're older and are sitting around having ale, and the topics of conversation get thin, each person has a Snape horror story they like to tell. Really, a teacher should not aspire to universal love and acceptance, but I seriously doubt that any GOOD teacher wants to be the 'universal' horror story of every student. On another note, I think the teachers who are recalled fondly in later years are teachers like McGonagall; firm but fair. You fear them, but you respect them, and they respect you, and ultimately in hindsight, you see that you learned the most from them. Just a thought. bboy_mn From starry765 at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 1 06:21:53 2003 From: starry765 at yahoo.ca (starry765) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:21:53 -0000 Subject: Ginny & Giant Squid SHIP is supported by canon {hehehe} In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74584 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > > ADMIN Proposed SHIP > "On the other hand, just because you can't stand to read > another word about Ginny's crush on the Giant Squid doesn't mean > that everyone else has to feel the same way." > > > DOn't laugh! An argument for the above SHIP can indeed be supported > by canon {fodder}! > > As proof --- If you anagram "gillyweed, giant squid & grinch" you > will get "ginny weasley, quidditch girl" ......... > > Not only does this super secret code suggest a possible SHIP between > Ginny and the Giant Squid {sounds better than James and the Giant > Peach - but I won't divulge any Snape secrets here), but it also > shows that she indeed does play quidditch! > > The referred-to grinch doesn't appear until book 6, but i am certain > JKR won't quibble about that! Speaking of which ..... an article > confirming this SHIP will appear in the Quibbler shortly .... > > Samnanya {who is already getting an air of dottiness waiting for book > 6 to arrive ) Um, OK. Will Dean (Ginny's boyfriend at the end of OotP) get mad at this and go after the squid in a jealous rage? Or will The Grinch's heart grow four sizes and help Harry defeat Voldemort? And is Max, his dog, realy an Anamagus? -starry765- From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 06:22:55 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:22:55 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > So how come Harry took such a sudden liking to Sirius ? One moment he > hates him so much he wants to kill him, and the next he loves him. I > know that in the meantime Sirius has been cleared, but that's the > only time this has meant anything to Harry. Snape has repeatedly been > cleared of most of the suspicions Harry had about him, that doesn't > make Harry love him any more. > > So can someone explain to me what happened in Harry's heart ? Is it > just that Sirius came at the right time in Harry's life, when Harry > desperately needed a father figure, so he just latched on to the > first man who let him do that ? > > Del I've read all the other replies so far, and while they make good points, I think there is something else that provides the very foundation for Harry's feelings. Sirius' life was shattered by *the very same event* that had shattered Harry's family. Sirius, James, Lily, and Harry were all betrayed by Peter Pettigrew and their lives destroyed or deeply damaged by Voldemort in the same action. This forms a connection to Sirius for Harry. I once posted about the fact that Harry can be deeply empathetic. Not always or about everything, to be sure, which is something I attribute to his upbringing with the Dursleys, but about things he can understand, he does empathise. As and example, I cited his strong feelings while lying in bed the night after he had looked into Dumbledore's pensieve in GoF. He felt absolutely horrible about Neville's family and felt that Neville deserved more sympathy than he did as an orphan. He then empathised with the pensieve crowd for wanting the four torturers to go to Azkaban. Suddenly, he remembered "the milk-white face of the screaming boy and realized with a jolt that he had died a year later...." That was another jolt of empathy, since he didn't really know if Crouch Jr. was guilty or not. Where am I going with this? I think, by the end of that long conversation in the Shack, that Harry could identify with Sirius as having been betrayed right along with Harry and his family. What had happened that night had happened to Sirius as much as to Harry. Add this to the fact that Lupin, while kind, always kept a bit distant, and the fact that Sirius was named Harry's godfather (thus Lily and James singled Sirius out whether or not the position was only a title), and I can believe that Harry would be very likely to have an "instant" attachment to Sirius. After all, we are talking about a boy who never had any family to call his own that he can remember. Annemehr P.S. I think it's a stretch to say, "one moment he hates him so much he wants to kill him, and the next he loves him." That conversation in the Shrieking Shack took over an hour and was very conclusive. From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 06:23:29 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:23:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] why dont they break or take wands? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74586 Olaf: They do. They always take their opponent's wand. They just don't break it. Maybe breaking a wand involves a powerful curse or something. Dan: Or a boot. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 06:36:33 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:36:33 -0000 Subject: Infallibility (Marauder's Map)* In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74588 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "brainattic" wrote: > I've been re-reading PoA and I just realised that, since Lupin used > the Marauder's Map to follow Harry & co.'s movements from Hagrid's > hut to the Shrieking Shack, shouldn't he have been able to see Future > Harry and Future Hermione as well? > > ...edited... Or does Lupin just have extreme tunnel vision? > bboy_mn: We've discussed everything before, but we never let that stop us from discussing it again. Regarding the map, I ask you to go back to the first time Harry sees it, and to the various times that he uses it. One thing is universal, the floor plans of a huge (probably biggest in the world) seven story, multi-winged, multi-towered, very large grounds castle is squeezed onto one normal size parchment. If these were standard large size architecural floor plans for a castle that big, it would be on huge stack of paper. So a huge floor plan and grounds are squeezed onto this small piece of paper, and the tiny figure of people have there names written in minuscule writing that is so small that Harry sometimes has to put his face right up to the map to read it. Given how much is squeezed on the map, and how tiny everything is, I think it would be impossible to try and read it without having tunnel vision. Also, Lupin saw the original Harry, Ron, and Hermione on the map, and his concentration was focused on tracking them, there would be no logical reason for him to scan the rest of the map to see if 'other' Harrys and Hermiones were on it. Add to that, that the map had 'dead' spot. Lupin didn't appear to be able to see anyone while they were in Hagrid's hut. So while Harry2 and Hermione2 were hiding just inside the edge of the Forbidden Forest, they may have been off the map. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 1 06:41:31 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:41:31 -0000 Subject: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snosageau" wrote: > As interesting as that would be, it can't happen because we've > already been told that Fawkes only gave up two feathers - Harry's and > LV's. > > (Sorry, can't tell you which book this is mentioned in. I bought > a "Box set" of the first four books and you need to be a wizard to > get the books out without a full on struggle, and I'm just not up to > it tonight.) > > Snos Me: 'twas in the first and fourth books. Mr. Ollivander tells HP in the "Diagon Alley" chapter in PS that only two feathers came from the phoenix and DD in the "Parting of the Ways" chapter in GOF confirms that the phoenix involved was Fawkes. Geoff From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 07:17:32 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:17:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74590 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/31/03 9:17:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > bibphile at y... writes: > > I was under the impression (though I admit that I don't know why) > > that only O.W.L.s counted fifth year. Basically if you pass the > > test you pass even if you have straight zeros and if you fail the > > test you fail even if you have straight 100's. > > That's what I thought too - at least, that's what I remember being told by people who understand the system. It's not Snape's grading at all at this point...it doesn't even matter what Harry gets on the potions from Snape, all that matters is what the examiners give him on his OWL. digress...) This, of course, brings up the question: Does Harry know that only the OWL test counts? > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > > Valky: Just can't pick a decent Snape fight with anyone these days can we! _Gesture of exasperation_ :b Alright we'll pick nits together. My short answer; ***Ridiculous!*** Of course his class marks count for something! Longer answer; A response like this it appears to me,actually begs the question. Does **Snape** know that only the OWLs count on Harry's marks. Why? oh why??? Would he bother awarding a zero or even setting the test if it has no effect on the kids marks. Sheeesh!!! _another gesture of exasperation._ From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 07:14:28 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 00:14:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74591 Geoff: 'twas in the first and fourth books. Mr. Ollivander tells HP in the "Diagon Alley" chapter in PS that only two feathers came from the phoenix and DD in the "Parting of the Ways" chapter in GOF confirms that the phoenix involved was Fawkes. Me: Minus the couple that Fawkes gave up in OoP, and the fact that Fawkes could always give more. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 07:19:53 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:19:53 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74592 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > > I have my own theory about Snape's real clothes > > From all of these descriptions, it is quite obvious that Severus Snape wear= > s > robes, a cloak, underwear and nothing else underneath. Sorry to dissapoint = > > you, but there are no taylored trousers, or neck-high shirts, no fingerless= > > gloves, or scarves etc... > And I know why. > It is simply because Snape is a wizard, not a muggle, and the fact that he = > > wears only wizard clothes leads me to believe that he definately comes from= > a > pureblood family, as witches or wizards who have grown up as muggles tend > to wear their robes over the top of their muggle clothes, but Snape wears o= > nly > robes. The fact that Snape wore only robes as a 15 year old teenager, and > that he still wears only robes (and no muggle clothing underneath) probably= > > suggests that that is what he has been wearing his whole life, with the lat= > er > addition of his trademark long black cloak. > This also makes him more 'wizard' to me. I cannot imagine Severus Snape, in= > > anything that resembles muggle clothes, no matter how 'eccentric' or 'Goth'= > > the clothing. It isn't him. He is a wizard, full stop. Wizards wear robes. = > Note - this is all completely my theory. > > -Cindy > http://www.designerpotions.com/ss I see what you are getting at, and you may be right. I definately think Snape is from a pureblood family, albeit one that has hit the skids. On the other hand, Ron is a pureblood (the boy doesn't even know how to use a phone) and we have at least one instance where he's got a shirt on under his robe, and in PS/SS, we see him get off the Hogwarts train with sneakers on. Tonks, who I assume is a pureblood, wears jeans and a t-shirt in OoP. I know they are younger, and probably less conservative than Snape, but still. No doubt the robe is the default wizard garment, it's just that I think there must be more to it than that. More than JUST a robe and underpants. Not like what Rickman wears in the films, probably, but SOMETHING. That's what kind of made me think the Snapes were too poor to buy Severus anything but the required school robes, which, for all we know, are meant to be worn over something else, shirt and trousers maybe. I gotta re-read the books and figure this out. Allyson From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 06:35:27 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:35:27 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74593 Another thing to think about. . .How serious a relationship is "godfather" in the wizarding world? Harry might not know, since he grew up with muggles. Sirius seems to take it very seriously. And come to think of it, how do you become a godparent in the wizarding world? With muggles a godfather is basically a witness to a baptism. Was Harry baptized? Maybe "godfather" is a loose translation for something else. . . Olaf, glad and big From mcandrew at bigpond.com Fri Aug 1 07:31:07 2003 From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (Little lama) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:31:07 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summer holidays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74594 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Deb Said: > >>> Snape has greasy hair, and so did the man in the creepy store in > Knockturn Ally. ... Maybe there is a meaning to the greasy hair, other than just neglect. > Rowling has not mentioned anything about him that suggests he is > neglectful about his appearance in any other way, that I can think of.... > Lady Macbeth: > ... I sympathize with Snape's harassment about his "greasy hair" because it's a problem I suffer with, and it has NOTHING to do with not washing it. "Greasy hair" can be and in my case is caused by stress and/or poor diet. Nutritional problems can also be seen in pallid or waxy skin ... And, before anyone argues that Snape eats well enough at Hogwarts, do we know where he lives all summer? Do we know how well his parents cared for/fed him? ... And we KNOW that whether he is a spy or not he exhibits signs of a great deal of stress, and possibly also depression (walking the halls at night, sudden mood shifts, explosive temper). > It's entirely possible that simply having less-than-healthy lifestyles for most of his life can attribute to his hair's condition. Me: My pet theory is that greasy hair is for Snape what untidy, sticking- up-at-the-back hair is for Harry - a magically induced characteristic that some particularly powerful wizards are just born with, which can't be controlled. After all his hair must be excessively greasy or JKR wouldn't keep referring to it constantly! Maybe it can be temporarily tamed with a lot of trouble and expense for special occasions, like Hermione's hair was for the Yule Ball, but Snape's appearance is unimportant to him and he can't be bothered. (I think JKR has actually hinted at some self neglect on his part, his yellowish teeth have been mentioned, but there could be other causes for that too) Your comments about diet & stress are interesting. We know how yummy and substantial the meals are at Hogwarts, but we never see Snape eating anything. Stress and depression could be dampening his appetite as well as contributing to his hair problem. Judging by the memories Harry saw, Snape could well have had a worse and more abused childhood than Harry, which would be the source of his emotional problems and a plausible reason for his warped personality. In that case his treatment by James & co at Hogwarts would have reinforced the feelings of worthlessness he already had. (And despite the chapter title, I think Snape's REAL worst memories are a lot worse than the ones we saw - apart from possible childhood abuse there was probably something fairly traumatic that made him decide to leave the DEs.) It all makes me wonder where on earth he finds a happy enough memory to help him conjure a patronus when he's in a tight corner with a Dementor? What Snape does in the summer I think he stays at Hogwarts, which is probably his only home. We've seen him having Christmas dinner there in the holidays. Living there seems to suit him and he won't even consider the idea of leaving the place for safety in Book 4 (when he advises Karkaroff to flee). Maybe he goes away sometimes to visit a lady friend from his old Death Eater days though. (possibly one source of happy memories?) Lama From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 1 07:33:39 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:33:39 -0000 Subject: Forever Wicked? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > > In a message dated 7/31/2003 7:20:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > sleepingblyx at y... writes: > > > > > Slytherin is supposed to be the sneaky, but very great wizarding > > > house, and all that seems to stem from it are cartoon-like > > > villans ... who say something awful and then go back into the > > > shadows.... > > > > > > Does anyone think that someone from Slytherin will ever emerge as > a > > > hero? Who would you pick? > June: Aren't you all missing the as yet unveiled hero potential of non other than the Head of House himself... Severus Snape (for it is he IMHO).. Holding out for Good!Snape. From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 1 07:44:58 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:44:58 -0000 Subject: Worse than death (was Re: re:Some theories I wanted to bounce of of everyone. ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74596 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ereturtle18" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whimsyflower" > wrote: > > > I've wondered what Dumbledore could be referring to when he said > there's > > something "worse than death." > > > > Whimsyflower > > ereturtle18: > In PoA, Lupin said the dementor's kiss was worse than death. > Maybe what Dumbledore meant was inability to love or experience joy. > You certainly can't do either if you've been kissed by a dementor, > can you? The other possibility which occurred to me is that Dumbledore might be referring to life without hope or love. There is something in LOTR about endless days without hope or light (probably hugely inaccurate but at work without books)as experienced by the wraiths. In other words, eternal life (which Voldemort is after) can be wearisome without any of the qualities which make life worthwhile. Certainly it would seem that Voldy does not have an aweful lot of fun in life. Eternal life the Voldemort way is "worse than death", while death can be a good thing - ie a release from suffering, "like going to bed after an exceptionally full day" (or something like that in PS/SS). Voldy has a pathological phobia about death because he lacks the understanding of its real place in the existence thing. June From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 07:56:07 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:56:07 -0000 Subject: Elixir of Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > Hi. I am Olaf, glad and big, and this is my first post. > Whar I'm wondering is why, in SS, Voldemort/Quirrel didn't nip down > to Devon and pinch some elixir from Nicholas Flamel? His house is > probably a much easier target for a B&E job than Gringott's or > Hogwarts. Even if he eventually needed the stone itself, he would > have been in a much stronger position if he had a few shots of elixir > under his belt. Anyone who had looked into the subject of the > philosopher's stone would know that Nicholas Flamel was the one who > discovered it. Obviously it would be hard to take the elixir from him > by force, since it makes him immortal, but stealth and cunning would > have been worth a try. > thank you. > Olaf, glad and big What if Quirrel tried to get at Flamel and was somehow unsuccessful? Or maybe he couldn't get any elixir but managed to discover the whereabouts of the stone when he learned it was not with Flamel. Flamel then warns Dumbledore that someone is after the stone, though he doesn't know it's Hogwart's DADA teacher. Dumbledore then has Hagrid take the stone from it's vault at Gringott's to Hogwarts where Dumbledore is able to give it proper protection. I don't think it's mentioned anywhere in PS/SS why they decided to move the stone to Hogwarts at that particular time. There must have been some reason to believe that it was in danger at the bank. Perhaps an attempt to steal the elixir alerted them to the danger. KathyK (hoping this makes sense at 4am) From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 08:22:05 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (Kathy) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:22:05 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74598 I agree with that, by the way. Allyson: On the other hand, Ron is a pureblood (the boy doesn't even > know how to use a phone) and we have at least one instance where he's > got a shirt on under his robe, and in PS/SS, we see him get off the > Hogwarts train with sneakers on. Tonks, who I assume is a pureblood, > wears jeans and a t-shirt in OoP. I know they are younger, and > probably less conservative than Snape, but still. > > No doubt the robe is the default wizard garment, it's just that I > think there must be more to it than that. More than JUST a robe and > underpants. Not like what Rickman wears in the films, probably, but > SOMETHING. That's what kind of made me think the Snapes were too poor > to buy Severus anything but the required school robes, which, for all > we know, are meant to be worn over something else, shirt and trousers > maybe. I gotta re-read the books and figure this out. > > Allyson I can't recall which book and they're out in my car at the moment, but in one of them I distinctly remember there being something said about the Weasley children wearing muggle clothing over summer but they're parents wearing robes. I got the impression that was pretty much all they wore. And given Arthur Weasley's fondness for things muggle, I can just see him wanting his children to wear muggle clothing if possible. Plus, I'll bet it's a lot easier for children to run around and do all sorts of fun things in muggle clothing than in robes which may get in the way and could prove embarassing if that's all they wore. Maybe Snape's family was so "above" things muggle that the thought of wearing anything associated with them was horrifying. Perhaps they even frowned upon young children wearing anything other than wizard robes. Severus wasn't wearing anything other than underpants under his robe when he was fifteen because he never did. KathyK From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 08:26:04 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:26:04 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74599 "greatelderone" : And if we bring up Rowling's quotes then she also has said that the trio have all fallen in love with the wrong people in GoF (Harry/Cho, Hermione/Viktor, Ron/Hermione) and since the Harry/Cho is already sunk then you are going to bet that the Hermione/Viktor and the Ron/Hermione ships are next. C M : I'm with you on Harry/Cho and Hermione/Viktor, but can we really be sure that she wasn't referring to Ron/Fleur with that comment? She *is* the one he asked to the Yule Ball. Charlie Moody : That's the "Veela effect", magically-assisted hormone-displacement - about as personal as getting stuck in traffic. It's an arguable point, but I really don't see that it counts for much more than if he were just admiring some stranger's profile from a distance. Certainly, it's nothing like developing a genuine fondness for / attraction to someone - and isn't that what we're talking about? Who's having real feelings for whom? And finally me, Del : About the Veela effect : it's true that Ron is attracted to her only because of the hormonal power of the Veelas. But can you tell me why Harry is attracted to Cho, if not for a purely hormonal reason ? He likes her because a) she's pretty, and b) she's a Quidditch player. He doesn't like her for her personality, since he doesn't know *anything* about her personality as he painfully discovers in OoP. His attraction to her cannot be described as "a genuine fondness", only as an irrational attraction. In other words, he's got a crush on her. And a crush is mainly a matter of hormones and irrational body reactions to someone. It very rarely depends on how much you actually know that person. So if the Ron/Fleur relationship cannot be the one JKR was talking about in the interview, then neither can the Harry/Cho one be... As for the Viktor/Hermione one. Obviously we can't know what kind of feelings Viktor has for Hermione, we can't know if he's actually in love with her, if it's just a crush, if he's just lonely, or if she reminds him of the rabbit he had when he was 4 years old (just kidding ;-). But we can deduce from her actions that she doesn't seem horribly taken with him. Not enough anyway to accept his invitation to spend the summer with him. Now, my teenage years are not that far away that I don't remember how it felt to be in love with/have a crush on someone : I would have gladly given up *anything* to follow a boy I was interested in. So either Hermione has a much greater sense of responsibility and doesn't want to desert Harry and The Cause in those hard times (could be, she *is* a particularly serious little witch after all), or she's simply not that interested in him. As a friend, yes, considering the length of the letter we see her writing to him, but no more. Actually, the fact that we DO see her writing that letter in company of the boys would make me think that it's not a romantic letter : she would probably do it in private. But I sure wonder what's in it... And as for Ron/Hermione : I'm a huge R/H SHIPper, but I'm not blind. Those two have a special fondness for each other, for sure, but none of them has yet reached the romantic attraction point yet. Not Ron, and definitely not Hermione. Ron is horribly jealous all right, but I don't see that he's anywhere close to realizing what this jealousy means. He probably sees it more like a big brother kind of jealousy. After all, he *does* react badly when he discovers that Ginny has been happily dating all over the place. Of course, we R/H SHIPpers clearly see that those 2 kinds of jealousy don't have much in common, but neither Ron nor the others SHIPpers seem to notice it (I'm just having fun, no offence meant to anyone ;-) Del From qmasters at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 08:30:50 2003 From: qmasters at yahoo.com (quimbyquidditch) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:30:50 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Allyson wrote: Message-ID: <1C3B2C2E-C3FD-11D7-9BBD-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 74601 On Friday, Aug 1, 2003, at 08:17 Europe/London, M.Clifford wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: >> In a message dated 7/31/03 9:17:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, >> bibphile at y... writes: >>> I was under the impression (though I admit that I don't know why) >>> that only O.W.L.s counted fifth year. Basically if you pass the >>> test you pass even if you have straight zeros and if you fail the >>> test you fail even if you have straight 100's. >> > Valky: > Just can't pick a decent Snape fight with anyone these days can we! > > _Gesture of exasperation_ :b > > Alright we'll pick nits together. > My short answer; ***Ridiculous!*** > Of course his class marks count for something! *If* the OWLs are based on old-fashioned O-Level exams (and they do appear to be), then bibphile is correct: marks awarded in class during the year are irrelevant to the grades achieved in the OWL examination. [The current UK equivalent to O-Levels, the GCSEs, *do* have a considerable element of course-work included in the final grades. But O-Level grades were awarded solely on examination performance. And it does appear to me that the OWLs are done in the same way, entirely by external examiners.] If Harry had a school report to carry home to the Dursleys every summer, the marks achieved during the year would be on it, probably accompanied by acid remarks from Snape about the abysmal Potions OWL grade to be expected from this student. However, Hogwarts does not seem to provide reports to parents. So the marks awarded week by week are for the teacher's own information. > > Longer answer; A response like this it appears to me,actually begs > the question. > Does **Snape** know that only the OWLs count on Harry's marks. Of course he does. > > Why? oh why??? Would he bother awarding a zero or even setting the > test if it has no effect on the kids marks. > Sheeesh!!! Huh? How about, personal satisfaction for Snape, who wanted to upset Harry? How about, he could pretty well tell from the appearance of the potion that it would get a good mark, and he couldn't bring himself to award one (reasons might vary from spite to a deep-cover disguise). In this respect his action is ambiguous - I mean, Snape-loathers can assume that he is a mean-spirited git, while at the same time Snape-lovers can assume that he knows perfectly well Harry has achieved competence, but for reasons of policy must maintain the anti-Harry front by giving him a zero, secure in the knowledge that it makes no difference to the important OWL results. As to why he would bother setting a test if it had no effect on the OWL grades, well, teachers do need some means of assessing their students' progress, don't they? This seems to be Snape's method: get the kids to make a potion and see how well they've done it. Seems entirely reasonable to me. Not that I learned Potions, but when I was studying for my O-Levels, teachers did tend to set us work, and mark it... Pen From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 08:52:23 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:52:23 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74602 "sarcasticmuppet" wrote: > I think Harry's mindset in PoA wasn't so much "I love Sirius" as it > was "After watching Ron's rat turn into a dead guy and finding out > Lupin is a werewolf I realize that Sirius is really innocent and I > have to keep him from getting kissed by the dementors so maybe in > the future I can get away from my evil extended family and live > with him." I don't quite see it that way. When Sirius tells Harry that he can come and live with him if he wants to, it's not just relief Harry is feeling, it's more like happiness, and it doesn't make too much sense to me. Yes the Dursleys are awful, but look at what Sirius is offering him : holidays all alone with a half-mad man who spent 12 years in Azkaban, can turn into a big black sinister dog, and looks like a walking nightmare (even Snape must look like a model next to Sirius at that time). Not my definition of paradise. So why should Harry be so happy ? And as for the Dementors : his concern is more than just "I must save him so I can get away from the Dursleys". He truly loves that guy. He's even more worried about Sirius being killed than Hermione ! I know the Dementors are after Sirius, not Hermione, but if horrible baddies were after one of my best friends, a teacher I hate and the scary old friend of my parents' I've just met, I would be much more concerned about my own friend. > I don't think love kicked in until GoF, when Harry had a > decent correspondance with Sirius and realized how much Sirius > cares about him. Except that they have a correspondance precisely because Harry chooses to. He's the one who chooses to turn to Sirius instead of *anyone else*. Again, I don't see why. If I had to choose between my best friends, the Headmaster who's always listened to me and who is so wise, that old friend of my parents' who was such a good teacher and a good help last year, and the old friend of my parents' who just spent 12 years in prison and is on the run again and showed signs of not being completely right in his head, I don't think I would choose the last one... Not to mention that their correspondance is pretty sporadic and quite bland. Sirius doesn't go much further than the much- expected : "Ooohh, be careful, stay out of troubles, and let the adults take care of everything". But he *does* come back from hiding to help protect Harry, I grant you that. Though usually Harry doesn't care much about what others do for him, unless they are called Sirius or Hagrid... Del From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 08:59:59 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:59:59 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: >> Dan: > Is there canon for the idea that Kreacher is free to go now that the Blacks are all dead? Or is he still bound to the house? Thus, whoever inherits the house, gets Kreacher? > -Dan The "Blacks" may be dead, but there are other family members alive, kicking and killing... Bellatrix was Sirius' cousin and we know what she did to him. It was dear Narcissa (Bellatrix's sister?) that Kreacher conspired with to set up Harry and Sirius, was it not? I must apologize because I cannot remember the exact lineage/relations. I know they are all on the Black family tree. Kreacher is bound to the family, more than the house it seems. At least as far as he is concerned, since he snuck out (remember when Sirius told him to get out and Kreacher used it to leave the house, instead of just leaving the room?)to inform them of the goings on at Grimmauld Place, and that Sirius was living there. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 09:12:04 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:12:04 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: <33C31E7C-C37E-11D7-ADF0-000393C324F6@mac.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74604 Rebecca Stephens wrote: He laughs when Cho is jealous of Hermione, laughs at the idea that he is interested or has a romantic relationship with her. greatelderone : And yet he starts blaming himself when Hermione gets knocked out by the DE and cares more for an unconscious Hermione than for Ron who is getting strangled by a brain. If anything this certainly does show that he has an interest in her though certainly not Romantic in Ootp. Charlie Moody Thanks for bringing that in! Absolutely, it is *not* a romantic moment by any means; and yet, when life and death are in the air, things get reduced to their essentials. I think we're seeing a clear view of Harry's true feelings here (not saying he doesn't care for Ron, but Ron's still fighting, so he's ok - but Hermione's down, and his instinct is to go to her aid, not his). Let Negativistic Del get on a run again : What about plain and simple guilt ? Hermione kept telling him that maybe he was all wrong about his dream, and she was dead right about it but he refused to listen to her, he shouted at her, he was mean to her. And still she came and helped him all she could. And now she's hurt and she might be dying... I'd say Harry is feeling absolutely downright guilty... As for being more worried about Hermione than about Ron, I'd say that makes sense : first because as Charlie said, Hermione has already been badly hurt and might be dying while Ron still seems to be alive and fighting, but also because he knows that when it comes to practical situations, Ron usually does better than Hermione and pretty much doesn't need him (Harry) to come and help. Ron can exhibit fear, but he rarely starts moaning or panicking, and he for sure never hides behind Harry for protection. In other words, Ron doesn't awaken the knight in shining armor inside Harry, while Hermione does. Crude and simplistic, but still true, I see it in guys very often (can even come in useful sometimes :-) Del From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 09:17:20 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:17:20 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Art Said: >>> There was a moment at the Quidditch World Cup where a wizard named Archie is wearing a woman's nightgown. He protests the recommendation of a MOM official to put on pants. "I'm not putting them on," said old Arichie in indignation. "I like a healthy breeze 'round my privates, thanks." So, by wearing underwear, a teenage Snape is being a bit conservative....<<< > > Cindy Said : > >>>From all of these descriptions, it is quite obvious that Severus Snape wears robes, a cloak, underwear and nothing else underneath. Wizards wear robes.<<< > > Lady Macbeth: > These instances all corroborate the idea that I have long had - that wizards who run the chance of meeting up with Muggles, such as Ministry officials and children, wear "muggle-like" clothes in their daily work. Others who have no reason to venture into the Muggle world would not. This is also supported by a quote from the first chapter of the first book: > Sorcerer's Stone, American Paperback Edition, Pg 10: > People are being downright careless, out on the > streets in broad daylight, not even dressed in Muggle clothes, swapping > rumors." > -Lady Macbeth > I must say, IMO, that the wizards and witches seem to have a wide variety of tastes when it comes to "fashion". Some wear total WW clothing, some muggle clothing and some a combination. Sort of "to each, his or her own". I still say if you are going flying on a broom, you need something under those robes or it would get mighty breezey! Also, you would have very little "mystery" left about you... LOL! I noticed the Quidditch teams had the good sense to wear trousers with their uniforms! From subrosax at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 09:20:36 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:20:36 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" wrote: > > I can't recall which book and they're out in my car at the moment, > but in one of them I distinctly remember there being something said > about the Weasley children wearing muggle clothing over summer but > they're parents wearing robes. I got the impression that was pretty > much all they wore. And given Arthur Weasley's fondness for things > muggle, I can just see him wanting his children to wear muggle > clothing if possible. Plus, I'll bet it's a lot easier for children > to run around and do all sorts of fun things in muggle clothing than > in robes which may get in the way and could prove embarassing if > that's all they wore. > Maybe Snape's family was so "above" things muggle that the thought of > wearing anything associated with them was horrifying. Perhaps they > even frowned upon young children wearing anything other than wizard > robes. Severus wasn't wearing anything other than underpants under > his robe when he was fifteen because he never did. > > KathyK OK, I give up! You guys have convinced me. I guess I always just pictured wizard outfits to be something like a priest. You know, pants, shirt, robe. When I read the pensieve scene in OoP, I just couldn't believe Snape was skulking around with nothing but tighty- whiteys under his robes. But your right, I'll bet his parents frowned on wearing on muggle clothing. From the sounds of things, being a pureblood family was about the only thing they had to hold onto. And I can't really picture young Snape frolicking about in "play clothes" on his summer holidays. No wonder he sits around that filthy house shooting down flies! Allyson From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 09:24:19 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:24:19 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74607 > Hi. Olaf, glad and big here. > What makes you so sure that Miss Figg is in fact a squib? I think > it's possible that she is working under deep cover for the order. In OoTP, when she goes to Harry after the dementor attack on he and Dudley, she tells him she is a squib so she can't do magic/would be no good against the dementors and that she and Mundungus(sp? have been "watching" him. She has been baby sitting and keeping an eye on Harry since SS/PS, as the Dursleys, not knowing what she really is, left Harry with her when they would need a sitter. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 09:32:49 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:32:49 -0000 Subject: Neville's Plant In-Reply-To: <200307311810.19045.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74608 silmariel wrote: > Complex, isn't it? Neville is more than meets the eye. I'd like to > know if another detail has been discussed. We know the constant > references to Mimbulus Mimbletonia. Given there is a phrase I wish > I could locate in the book as the plant being assyrian (or sirian), > is it a reference to the book about mediterranean plants he was > given in GoF? Oh-ooohhh... I'd been trying to figure out what to make of that plant for a while, and somehow your post got my brains working finally. Could it be... ? Could it be that Neville, when reading the book, came across that plant and discovered that it has powerful magical properties that could... cure his parents !? So could it be then that he asked his Uncle Algie (who seems to be much nicer to him than his Gran is) to bring him back a Mimblethingy, and now he's getting it to grow, while getting counsel and help from Professor Sprout and Potions books about how to prepare the potion for his parents ? He's good enough at Herbology to pull such a trick, and I'm sure he would be much better at Potions if he wasn't paralyzed with fear at the sheer sight of Snape. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 09:41:23 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:41:23 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74609 "flying_meese" wrote: > I don't know if love has anything to do with it yet. I see it this > way, in PoA Harry is 13, he has spent 13 years with a family who > wants absolutely nothing to do with him, he's spent 3 years at > Hogwarts trying not to get killed, now his fathers best friend > wants him to come live with him. He jumps at the chance because for > probably the first time in his life he feels really wanted by > someone. I think anyone would jump at that chance if they had been > through the same things. But what about the Weasleys ? I think they've made it pretty clear that they would take him for good if only DD allowed it. And still he doesn't feel anywhere as strongly towards them. I know Sirius has a bonus, since he's his dad's best friend, but we've never seen Harry so intent on getting to know more about his parents anyway. When he discovers that Remus was also a friend of his dad's, he doesn't care. So I'm still feeling uneasy about the whole matter of "Sirius was soooo important for Harry". I love Sirius, but I don't buy that artificial relationship between him and Harry JKR tries to force us to buy throughout GoF and OoP. I remember when I was younger, I need *acts* of love, not just words or family ties. I would have been much more attracted to the Weasleys than to Sirius. Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 09:43:53 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:43:53 -0000 Subject: Happy Birthday Harry! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74610 "mhershey2001" wrote: > Can't believe I am the first to mention it, doesn't the poor guy > have enough of a complex about people forgetting his birthday? :) > I think he is now 23? ... if he's still alive, that is... Del From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 09:44:40 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:44:40 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > OK, I give up! You guys have convinced me. I guess I always just > pictured wizard outfits to be something like a priest. You know, > pants, shirt, robe. When I read the pensieve scene in OoP, I just > couldn't believe Snape was skulking around with nothing but tighty- > whiteys under his robes. But your right, I'll bet his parents frowned on wearing on muggle clothing. From the sounds of things, being a pureblood family was about the only thing they had to hold onto. And I can't really picture young Snape frolicking about in "play clothes" on his summer holidays. No wonder he sits around that filthy house shooting down flies! >> Allyson Well, his undies could have been boxers, LOL! I am not trying to be difficult, but... some priests do not wear trousers or shirts... some only wear cassocks, with dog collars but no trousers or shirts. As much as I like Snape, I cannot imagine him frolicking as a child...period... Now Lucius Malfoy seems to wear a combination type set of clothes. Of course NOTHING muggle, but tousers, shirts, jackets/coats and cloaks. All custom tailored, I'm sure ;-) From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 09:46:40 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:46:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading (just got long) In-Reply-To: <1C3B2C2E-C3FD-11D7-9BBD-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: > *If* the OWLs are based on old-fashioned O-Level exams (and they do > appear to be), then bibphile is correct: marks awarded in class during the year are irrelevant to the grades achieved in the OWL examination. [The current UK equivalent to O-Levels, the GCSEs, *do* have a considerable element of course-work included in the final grades. But O-Level grades were awarded solely on examination performance. And it does appear to me that the OWLs are done in the same way, entirely by external examiners.] > Valky replies: Terrific! that puts that debate to bed for me! Right or wrong there is a possibility that the course work is involved. Not really a matter I care to debate lengthily, right or wrong. > > > > Longer answer; A response like this it appears to me,actually begs > > the question. > > Does **Snape** know that only the OWLs count on Harry's marks. > > Of course he does. Valky replies: Very well then if that's all you wish to say on the matter. > > > > Why? oh why??? Would he bother awarding a zero or even setting the > > test if it has no effect on the kids marks. > > Sheeesh!!! > > Huh? > > How about, personal satisfaction for Snape, who wanted to upset Harry? Valky's Reply: I seee.... Are you saying thats a fair award for Harry's work then? > How about, he could pretty well tell from the appearance of the potion that it would get a good mark, and he couldn't bring himself to award one (reasons might vary from spite to a deep-cover disguise). Valky's reply: Indifferent to this argument, really. Snape dropped the potion in a deliberate act of spite. Cover schmover, what difference does one exceeding pass make unless.... hmmm perhaps it would be prudent not to let the dark side know Harry can make a real potion. (sarcasm hint). Blow me over with a feather, Snape wants Harry to defeat the Dark Lord! > In > this respect his action is ambiguous - I mean, Snape-loathers can > assume that he is a mean-spirited git, while at the same time > Snape-lovers can assume that he knows perfectly well Harry has achieved competence, but for reasons of policy must maintain the anti- Harry front by giving him a zero, secure in the knowledge that it makes no difference to the important OWL results. I am not a Snape loather. I call myself a realist. Snapes mystery and secrecy could yet reveal he is no more than a bitter retrousse who's reasons for being on the side of good are as scathing and hate filled in detail as his manner as a teacher. The speculation that he is a deeply angsted sweet-heart who never beleived with his being that the Dark Arts held no beauty is just that, speculation. Let it not end, indeed. Snape-lovers have a place on this list. Of intrigue in a character Snape is the King. However the brand Snape-loather does not apply to everyone who refuses to be overwhelmed by the instant compassion that arises from theories of Snapes long lost love and other such. What I am trying to relate is that the boundary you have drawn in your above statement demonstrates a disregard for the truth. Indeed a Snape-lover !also! *could* assume that Snape is just a mean spirited git. The canon certainly does hold a veritable mass of inference in support of it. So those of us to whom logic is more important *must* accept there will _always_ be a 'Snape-Lover' who simply _refuses_ to see it that way. And while so many of us do with amassed courtesy, there is an undignified cavort of Snape-Lover creed who dispense with courtesy in their replies and insult the logic they appear to be unable to comprehend. _Told ya I wanted to pick a fight_ :b On the other hand a 'Snape-loather' as you put it, if indeed a loather of any of JKR's creations could possibly exist in HP fandom, !also! *could* assume Snape is merely maintaining his anti-Harry front. I am sure if we all did Snape fandom would simply overrun the list and anyone who spoke ill of the mysterious man would be promptly booted. Ok OK perhaps not so definately booted, but I have been lynched on several occassions by the Snape camp. The thing that sticks in my craw is the aggro. Heal the list Snape-Lovers. If you are so filled deeply with compassion for the underdogs and the abused........... Why so abusive? Back to the subject, someone who wanted to handle Snape without the kid gloves and rose petals might actually agree with this statement and yet still think it is unfair grading. Is that OK? Or does that person deserve to have their own character ripped to shreds for it? > > As to why he would bother setting a test if it had no effect on the OWL grades, well, teachers do need some means of assessing their students' progress, don't they? This seems to be Snape's method: get the kids to make a potion and see how well they've done it. Seems entirely > reasonable to me. Not that I learned Potions, but when I was studying for my O-Levels, teachers did tend to set us work, and mark it... > > Pen Terrific well you've wrapped that up nicely. Obviously Snape is entirely fair in his behaviour because it didn't count toward the final mark. The debate remains. Snape grades fairly. Rubbish! He deliberately caused Harry to recieve a failed grade in his class. Right or wrong that's what happened isn't it. Valky. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 09:59:36 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 09:59:36 -0000 Subject: Wands and Other Stuff... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74613 "Steve" wrote: > Well, I certainly have wondered what happened to their wands, but > more so, what happened to all of their other stuff? Where is their > furniture, their clothes, their personal possessions, their > keepsakes, their mementos, picture albums, jewlery, their wedding > rings, etc... > > As long as we are on the subject, where are their graves? > > What happened to their house, was it just damaged, or was it truly > reduced to useless rubble? Could it be rebuilt? Was it rebuilt? Was > it really their house or was it a rental? If it was their house, > does that mean it's now Harry's house? ...mansion? ...manor? ...land > estate? ...traditional Potter family home or residence of a young > married couple? Is there a traditional Potter family > home? ...mansion? ...manor? ...land estate? Yes yes yes !!! This is one MAJOR thing that's always bothered me in the books : how come Harry doesn't try to know more about his parents ? He never seems to care. He sees all those people in the Mirror or in the picture book, but he doesn't care about finding out who they are, what their names were, what job they had (we still don't know for sure that James and Lily were Aurors !), etc... > These could be the kinds of things that a young boy never thinks of, > but Harry's not such a young boy anymore, and I have to believe at > some point he is going to want the answers to these questions? Yes, but only, I'm afraid, when it will be important for the plot :-( > Part of the problem is he's never had access to any one knowledgable > person long enough to establish a relationship that would lead to > this conversation. Give that Sirius is gone, the only available > persons I can think of are Lupin and/or Dumbledore. Of the two, I > would suspect that Lupin knew more intimate details of Harry's > parents lives, but Dumbledore on the other hand could have more > intimated details of their deaths and the aftermath. Hagrid obviously knew enough about their friends to go and collect pictures. He also knew where they lived, at the time they were killed. He knew them in school. Then you have Remus as you mentioned. Harry did discover that he was a friend of his parents, but he doesn't try to learn more than that. And in fact, even with Sirius, he almost never mentions his parents. We never see him sitting accross from Sirius and asking him "Tell me about my parents". I'm sure Molly would have let them off housework if they had wanted to talk about Harry's parents. And even when Sirius mentions his grandparents, Harry doesn't pick up the clue and ask more about them. No, the fact, as incredible as it may sound, is that Harry doesn't care about learning more about his parents... Or rather, there's something about his parents that is so vitally important for the plot that JKR must resort to not speaking of well *at all*. But *what* could be so important !?!? Del From fashionmenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 10:11:59 2003 From: fashionmenu at hotmail.com (dublinaaireland) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:11:59 -0000 Subject: the Fat Lady Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74614 I was just watching a show called Hamish Macbeth (Scottish show first aired around the late 90's), and one character said, '...it ain't *over* till the fat lady sings!', and it made me ask the question, does the fat lady in the picture frame sing?? I can't remember and am about to scan through 5 books. I've just completed a search and couldnt find anything relating to this on HP4GU...Has it been mentioned before?? D From subrosax at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 10:23:02 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:23:02 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > > Well, his undies could have been boxers, LOL! I am not trying to be > difficult, but... some priests do not wear trousers or shirts... > some only wear cassocks, with dog collars but no trousers or shirts. > As much as I like Snape, I cannot imagine him frolicking as a > child...period... Now Lucius Malfoy seems to wear a combination type > set of clothes. Of course NOTHING muggle, but tousers, shirts, > jackets/coats and cloaks. All custom tailored, I'm sure ;-) Sure enough, I should have been more clear. I meant something like an ordinary parish priest, not really monastic garb, though that does seem to be closer to what Snape actually wears. As for the the underwear, I just hope they weren't those horrible European style bikini things!! Though Snape doesn't strike me as being terribly continental. On the other hand, maybe wizard have their own underwear styles?! Could be a new topic! Or not. Allyson From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 10:33:59 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:33:59 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74616 Charlie Moody wrote: > Indeed, I'll bet that Cho caught his eye in the first place because > she's so different in appearance from Hermione - he's never had to > do without Hermione (as he had to do without Ron in Book 4), and so > he's never had to weight the impact of a Hermione-shaped hole in > his life. Unless your "never" means "since book 4", I'm afraid you're wrong. He had to do without Hermione in PoA, when the boys threw a major tantrum at her over the Firebolt Affair, and sulked at her for weeks on. And even when Hagrid told them how miserable Hermione was and how she was crying and everything, neither of them relented. They were doing quite fine without her, and they didn't care about hurting her feelings. But the most telling thing for me is precisely that time when he had to do without Ron. If he was interested in Hermione, he would have been happy to spend some more time with her. But he wasn't ! In fact, he was bored with only her around. So : he doesn't suffer when he sees less of her, and he's not happy when he sees more of her. I can hardly see how this can be twisted into : he's romantically interested in her. > Re-read the Yule Ball chapter from GoF - even when she's with > Viktor @ the Ball, she's focusing as much attention on Harry as on > him. Of course she is. Harry is her friend, Viktor is only her date. I think we all agree that she's not in love with Viktor. Which means that, though it's probably nice to spend some time with him, still it doesn't compare to spending time with her best friends, which happen to be Harry and Ron. > Viktor is, instead, jealous of Harry - because Harry's all she > talks about, Yes, I can imagine that she would, for one obvious reason : she's *scared* for Harry. She knows the tasks can be dangerous, so she's scared for him. She also knows that whoever put his name in the Goblet wants him dead. So you bet she's scared ! And so she's bound to talk about him to Viktor. Moreover, you're interpreting the books here : nowhere does it say that Harry is *all* she talks about. I'll bet she only mentions him once in a while, which she is bound to do, considering that they spent most of their life at Hogwarts together. So how could she avoid the "Oh, one day, Harry did something so funny, let me tell you", or "Harry says that", or "With Harry once we did this", etc... And you know what ? I'll bet she mentions Ron just as often. But because Ron is neither a celebrity nor one of his opponent in the Tournament, Viktor doesn't care about him. > she's always trying to catch Harry's eye, Do you have examples of that ? > and that's not good enough for Viktor - he responds w/ jealousy. > (Just as Cho responds jealously to every reference Harry makes to > Hermione.) Yep, and both Viktor and Cho are being silly :-) Harry can't figure out why on Earth should Cho be jealous of Hermione, and I guess Hermione can't either figure why Viktor is jealous of Harry. For one simple reason : they are not in love with one another. > (Yes, Ron pitches a truly spectacular jealous fit in there, too, > but Hermione's too pre-occupied to notice him winding up - and her > surprise when he lets loose is portrayed as genuine. If she were > actually interested in Ron "that way", and doing all this as a way > of winding him up, she could only pretend surprise - and it's been > made pretty clear in the books that she doesn't pretend very well.) I don't think she did all this to wind him up. I think she went out with Viktor because he asked her and he's a nice guy and *he made her feel like an attractive girl*. From what I see, she got really upset when she realized that in Ron's eyes, she'd never even been a true girl : even without having any romantic interest in a boy, it hurts *mightily* to realize that kind of thing ! I know : because I'm fat, I'm not a woman for most men, I'm just a pal, and believe me it hurt, even when I wasn't interested in them at all. And when Ron and Hermione get in the big fight after the ball, I think she's mad because Ron is telling her she shouldn't have gone with Viktor, which for her at that time translates into : can't you see how ridiculous you are acting, thinking that a guy can truly be interested in you, thinking you can truly be an attractive girl ? And when she tells him that next time he should invite her first, what she's saying is : it hurts me that you deny my femininity, please open your eyes and start acting like you're a boy and I'm a girl. She needs to *please*, she needs to know she can seduce a guy. She's a teenage girl. Del ps : the fact that she's granting so much importance to Ron's opinion, though, seems to me to indicate that he's got a special place in her heart. She doesn't care anywhere as much that Harry doesn't see as a girl... From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 10:48:18 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 11:48:18 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summer holidays, Snape's pet gerbil.... References: Message-ID: <004d01c3581b$1bc40ba0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74617 From: Little lama --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Macbeth" wrote: > Deb Said: > >>> Snape has greasy hair, and so did the man in the creepy store in > Knockturn Ally. ... Maybe there is a meaning to the greasy hair, other than just neglect. > Rowling has not mentioned anything about him that suggests he is > neglectful about his appearance in any other way, that I can think of.... > Lady Macbeth: > ... I sympathize with Snape's harassment about his "greasy hair" because it's a problem I suffer with, and it has NOTHING to do with not washing it. whether he is a spy or not he exhibits signs of a great deal of stress, and possibly also depression (walking the halls at night, sudden mood shifts, explosive temper). > It's entirely possible that simply having less-than-healthy lifestyles for most of his life can attribute to his hair's condition. Me: My pet theory is that greasy hair is for Snape what untidy, sticking- up-at-the-back hair is for Harry - a magically induced characteristic that some particularly powerful wizards are just born with, which can't be controlled. After all his hair must be excessively greasy or JKR wouldn't keep referring to it constantly! Maybe it can be temporarily tamed with a lot of trouble and expense for special occasions, like Hermione's hair was for the Yule Ball, but Snape's appearance is unimportant to him and he can't be bothered. (I think JKR has actually hinted at some self neglect on his part, his yellowish teeth have been mentioned, but there could be other causes for that too)>> ---- Something occured to me reading this thread. Snape has put a lot of effort into his appearance. His walk and style of dressing are cultivated to intimidate and keep people at a distance, his way of talking and body language likewise. We are getting our description of his faults from Harry's POV, which is highly predudiced. However, Snape has physically got very close to Harry (and others), looming over them and getting his face close to them, but no one has ever suggested that he smells - either from some kind of body odour or any kind of masking scent. Unattended greasy hair and teeth would generate an unpleasant smell, and I doubt that Harry & co. would fail to make comment to the fact. Before someone suggests he uses some magical means to mask any smell, if he took the effort to notice a problem and then do something about it, it would make as much sense to mask/fix the bad appearance of his hair and teeth instead. Which leads me to think that the outward appearance of his hair and teeth are either being exaggerated by the adolescent students, there is little or nothing Snape can do to improve their appearance (like Harry's hair, which grows to his usual length and shagginess within 24 hours of being cut, as mentioned in PS), whether through innate magic or a result of the potions, or else they are another aspect of his carefully cultivated image (but don't ask me why he'd want them, I haven't got a clue!) I personally lean towards a combination of the first two. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 09:40:03 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:40:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment References: Message-ID: <004c01c3581b$193e9940$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74618 From: pippin_999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: So now I find it rather disorienting that Hermione just > casually tosses off what in the wizarding world is basically a > racial insult, and nothing comes of it. Nobody speaks to her, >nobody comments on it, nobody even raises an eyebrow or >looks troubled or surprised. Oh yes, they do. "He's not a horse, he's a Centaur!" said Lavender, sounding shocked. It isn't the first time Hermione has come out with something like this, either. In PoA ch. 17: "NO!" Hermione screamed. "Harry, don't trust him, he's been helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too--*he's a werewolf*!" (emphasis Rowling's) Try changing "werewolf" to the ethnic signifier of your choice and see how it sounds. I think Rowling is trying to show us just how insidious prejudice is. Even a well-meaning person like Hermione can fall prey to stereotyping. Pippin ----- I think this is probably the most likely explaination, with the possible lead in to something in the forthcoming storylines, but another thought came to me from something said in another thread. It was suggested that Snape was a racist because of one word used when he was being taunted as a teenager (seen in the pensieve), so perhaps JKR might of been dropping a hint that not everything said by a teenage student to another is to be taken as a sign that they are deeply tainted with racist beliefs? Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From readzalot at shaw.ca Fri Aug 1 01:39:03 2003 From: readzalot at shaw.ca (Deb) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 01:39:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's Anger Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74619 << wrote: "Harry, all year, has some sort of bubbling rage inside him ... Well, I think I've come up with a possibility for it, remember in DumbleDore's office, he said that ... He thought he could see a trace of Voldemort behind Harry's eyes i.e. the connection between them.>>> Made me think (being the mother of teenagers) that is is sad/funny that it is hard to tell the difference between ordinary teenage moodiness and being possessed by Voldemort. It is a credit to Rowling's art that we can justify either position. Deb S, aka readzalot, Canada From ktd7 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 06:48:08 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:48:08 -0000 Subject: What can Harry teach Hermione in DA ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "silvercatofbast" > In short, Hermione just likes learning, she would have trouble being > as practical as Harry who is the average student and will only > bother with something if he thinks it'll be useful. and since he's > the resident expert amoung the students, he's the only one who > anyone will surrender an argument to when it comes to opinions about > praticality (not who has the most worthwhile opinion, but who is > believed to). > Later! Knowing stuff and knowing how and when to use stuff is the difference between experts and artisans. Hermione has frozen up repeatedly (the troll in the bathroom, the devil's snare) even though she has LOTS of knowledge. Harry does things by instinct. Sometimes he does things by accident (jumping on the troll and jamming his wand up its nose), but he always is willing to act. He oozes magic, even without a wand, he's made things happen that he did not consciously plan. I expect that he will ultimately defeat Voldemort without a wand in hand. As far as what he can teach Hermione, he can help her learn to make quicker decisions without weighing every possible outcome when in the middle of a crisis. She's got the smarts, she just needs to be less analytical when a fast decision must be made. Still, she's done amazingly well, especially when she gets Harry out of Umbridge's clutches by leading her into the forest! That was quick thinking that didn't even involve magic. Still, when Harry decides to study, his powers are formidable! Now, he sees more and more reason to be serious about school, at least about DADA! Karen From ktd7 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 07:07:28 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 07:07:28 -0000 Subject: A Good Slytherin? (Was: Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: <410-2200385141544647@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74621 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" > I believe someone like Draco, for example, does not). From there, it's just > a matter of opinion which side you believe he's on. At least until Book 6 > when he joins Dumbledore's Army. ;-) (Of course, if it turns out you were > right all along, then he'll also be the one who betrays Dumbledore's Army > in Book 7). > > :-) > Wendy I've come to the conclusion that there is going to be some sort of redemption/salvation for Draco. He comes from a dreadful family, which he can't help, but he can help the decisions he makes. I think that the point of these books is that it is our decisions that make us who we are, and that people deserve 2nd chances. These themes are pointed out again and again. Most of us would hate to think that a boy born to a nasty family is doomed to be as evil as his parents. Sirius is a good parallel. Totally different from the rest of his family. There are so many parallel characters that we see in these stories that it would make sense for Draco to be paralleled with either James, who changed his bully ways by his seventh year, or with Sirius, who "rose above" his family's prejudices. Karen From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 08:03:51 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:03:51 -0000 Subject: Forever Wicked? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74622 > Aren't you all missing the as yet unveiled hero potential of non > other than the Head of House himself... > > Severus Snape (for it is he IMHO).. > > Holding out for Good!Snape. Yes, but of the current class.... would they all follow Malfoy to the bitter end? And I wonder what year six will be like now that Malfoy's father is in prison. It would be interesting to see a more humble, human Malfoy. --Blyx From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 1 08:12:54 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:12:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summer holidays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Little lama" wrote: > Judging by the > memories Harry saw, Snape could well have had a worse and more abused > childhood than Harry, which would be the source of his emotional > problems and a plausible reason for his warped personality. This is my first posting on this board, so forgive me if what I write has been said before.... I don't think that we have enough information to conclude that Snape had such a horrid childhood that it would be worse than losing one's parents and being raised by hatefull relatives who bully you, underfeed you, have you sleep in a cupboard and work you hard, etc. All we saw of Snape's family was a (presumably) angry father shouting at a scared looking (presumably) mother. Even the best parent sometimes screams at their kids (see Molly Weasely :-)). > I think Snape's REAL worst memories are a lot worse > than the ones we saw - apart from possible childhood abuse there was > probably something fairly traumatic that made him decide to leave the > DEs.) I have a theory that Snape was in love with Lily Potter. The penseive scene is seen through Snape's filtering. While the foursome is shown in a very unflattering way, Lily is described as a very positive person - again from Snape's POV. If Snape indeed loved her, it would explain why he hated James even more than he did Sirius and why he hates Harry so much - not only does Harry look like the father who married the girl he loved, but in a very real sense Harry is responsible for Lily's death. If my suspicion is correct this can also explain why Snape the adult, despite otherwise hatefull behavious, has never shown any racism towards muggle-born students - though as a teen he has! Likewise, this would explain him turning away from Voldemort - who killed Lily - and turning to DD, who tried to protect her. > It all makes me wonder where on earth he finds a happy enough > memory to help him conjure a patronus when he's in a tight corner > with a Dementor? Has he ever faced a dementor? Salit From iris_ft at yahoo.fr Fri Aug 1 11:25:42 2003 From: iris_ft at yahoo.fr (iris_ft) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:25:42 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74624 - In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: I think, by the end of that long > conversation in the Shack, that Harry could identify with Sirius as > having been betrayed right along with Harry and his family. What > had happened that night had happened to Sirius as much as to Harry. > Add this to the fact that Lupin, while kind, always kept a bit > distant, and the fact that Sirius was named Harry's godfather (thus > Lily and James singled Sirius out whether or not the position was > only a title), and I can believe that Harry would be very likely to > have an "instant" attachment to Sirius. After all, we are talking > about a boy who never had any family to call his own that he can > remember. > > Annemehr I agree with Annemehr about Harry's capacity to empathise (one of his main qualities, one of his strongest powers IMO). I `d like to add to her observation that Sirius is not only someone Harry can easily identify with. He `s also someone Harry was waiting for more or less consciously. If you take the second chapter of Philosopher's Stone, you can read at the end: "When he had been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some unknown relation coming to take him away, but it had never happened; the Dursleys were his only family." (UK paperback, p 27) A psychologist would tell you that it's an example of what is called "the family novel". Young children tend more or less consciously to imagine that Mum and Dad are not their true parents. It's a defence against all the prohibitions parents impose in order to educate their children. It's a normal phase in learning. It helps to accept the rules of social life. Children first tend to reject their parents when they impose them rules they don't like ("I don't love you anymore, you are not my mum anymore!"). So they invent a story about "my parents are not my true parents. My true parents wouldn't impose me those stupid rules. They love me but they are not here, those two are only my guardians. And one day my true parents will come and take me with them, and they'll let me do all that I want, they will give me all that I want". You can find this scheme in fairytales (Cinderella is a good example), and maybe you remember your own fantasies of the same kind. It's a normal phase of the growing up process. Then, as children grow up, they accept the rules and the fact they have no other parents. JKR plays with that in her books, because she knows very well what childhood is, what a human being is, and how fairytales and legends work. And she knows as well that "the family novel" is also tied with Oedipus complex. This complex turns back when the child is in early teens. Exactly like Harry in Prisoner of Azkaban. Sirius comes and he automatically plays the part he has to play, because 13 years old Harry needs it. He is "the unknown relation coming to take him away" Harry was waiting for, consciously or not. The whole novel could be read from a psychoanalytic point of view. It's a story about how a boy starts beginning a man, about how he deals with the father figure and assimilates this father figure's legacy. Harry likes Sirius because he comes just in time to be an opposite of what a 13 years old boy dislikes consciously or not in father figure: authority (Vernon Dursley, Snape), experience (Lupin, Dumbledore), and weakness (Hagrid). Thanks to him, because of him, Harry manages to create a Patronus, a stag (his father's Animagus form). The stag bows to him at the end of the story: Harry Potter has gained the right to succeed James Potter (That's the whole question of Oedipus complex). How couldn't Harry be grateful towards Sirius, nor love him for helping him to open his own wings? What can appear as incoherence is in reality a very relevant picture of a teenage boy. There's no incoherence in JKR's books. We only need keys to open doors, and pieces to complete the puzzle. Amicalement, Iris, who discovered yesterday a wonderful Time Turner. Have a look if you will: http://www.guedelon.com/ From manosoCS at delmonte-phil.com Fri Aug 1 08:29:02 2003 From: manosoCS at delmonte-phil.com (Maoso, Carl) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:29:02 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? Message-ID: <20030801210521.4C8E978200@proxy-dmz.delmonte-phil.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74625 Aesha: > I posted a similar thing to the list a few weeks ago. I > agree with you 100%- I don't understand why Harry felt so > close and obligated to Sirius, and in fact, it makes me > uncomfortable. I don't understand why Harry would be so > instantly attatched to him- I just don't buy that it's that > he was his parent's best friend. > > I think Rowling really meant for Harry to be closer to Sirius than the other characters like Molly, Arthur, Albus, and Remus. If we don't base it solely on the "written" feelings in the book, it becomes somewhat clearer. The stories about his father and Sirius's friendship (almost like brothers), though second-hand, are enough to make him feel closer to Sirius, considering that Harry has no other likable living relatives. And, here in the Philippines, aside from witnessing a child's Christening, godparents are also expected to help in rearing the child in matters of faith and morals (aside from being expected to give gifts on special occasions :-)), and in fact obliged to adopt the child in case of the death of parents. I'm guessing that godparents in the Wizarding world have the same role. Sirius obviously have taken that role eversince after book three. As to the "instant attachment", I don't buy it as well. I don't think Rowling intended such "instant" relationship. But I suppose it is plausible, considering that Harry has no one else. If I put myself in Harry's shoes, I'll definitely go to my godparents for help rather than my favorite teacher, or my best friend's parents. It all comes down to the godparent's role in the Wizarding world, I think. -- Carl S. Ma?oso "I'm not young enough to know everything." [JM Barrie] From ginoledesma at mydestiny.net Fri Aug 1 11:33:01 2003 From: ginoledesma at mydestiny.net (Gino LV.Ledesma) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:33:01 +0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What can Harry teach Hermione in DA ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74626 On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 02:48 PM, Karen wrote: > As far as what he can teach Hermione, he can help her learn to make > quicker decisions without weighing every possible outcome when in > the middle of a crisis. She's got the smarts, she just needs to be > less analytical when a fast decision must be made. Still, she's done > amazingly well, especially when she gets Harry out of Umbridge's > clutches by leading her into the forest! That was quick thinking > that didn't even involve magic. Still, when Harry decides to study, > his powers are formidable! Now, he sees more and more reason to be > serious about school, at least about DADA! Personally, I think that Hermione is at her best when she's relaxed (or in a "right state of mind"). You're right about her freezing up occasionally. The one I actually can't forget yet was during the final exam in their 3rd year with Lupin, where she was unable to defeat bogart-McGonogall. However, if she's in a determined mood (or at least when she's not frozen up), she might be a very formidable opponent -- such as the time when she threatened Malfoy when he insulted Hagrid (was that book 2? what with Hagrid's sacking? Can't remember). So I guess that's one thing she could learn from Harry -- to stay relaxed in situations such as those (e.g. PS/SS Devil's Snare) and to "think clearly." She actually displayed better control of herself during the fight with the death eaters -- I'd have easily expected her to panic and not think clearly under such circumstances (they were "facing death" after all). Gino Ledesma // Top 10 Reasons Compilers are female: #5. Always turning simple statements into big productions. From agnes_braunerhielm at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 08:54:31 2003 From: agnes_braunerhielm at hotmail.com (Agnes Braunerhielm) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 10:54:31 +0200 Subject: Wrong name for the mirror? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74627 >>"amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > > > > > > if possibly > > Harry > > > > didn't try the right name? 'Sirius' - no effect - 'Sirius >Black' no effect - I wonder if he'd tried 'Padfoot'... > > > But...Padfoot is dead. Then he can't be sitting on the "other line" (the other mirror) can he? I think it's like when you stick your head in the fire with floopowder, Harrys head appears on the other mirror and if the owner of the other mirror notice this, he can pick it up and answer. Just like a 'fellytone', really ;) I just think it was so sad that Harry tried....that he thought Sirius would answer although he is..dead... > > _________________________________________________________________ Hitta rtt kpare p MSN Kp & Slj http://www.msn.se/koposalj From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Aug 1 11:12:58 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:12:58 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) References: Message-ID: <3F2A4B3A.5060809@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74628 Based on the Wizard in the muggle dress in GoF, wanting a 'healthy breeze around his privates', I tend to think that most wizards might not wear underwear. So only wearing underwear and no other clothing under robes is not a sign of being a pureblooded. Might in fact be the opposite if purebloods wear nothing under their robes. Assuming of course the wizard in the muggle dress was pureblood? It was also early summer and would have been too hot to wear extra clothes under the robes, such as pants and shirts. Though I suppose one might have personal cooling spells? Jazmyn From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Aug 1 11:58:23 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:58:23 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > "sarcasticmuppet" wrote: > > > I think Harry's mindset in PoA wasn't so much "I love Sirius" as it > > was "After watching Ron's rat turn into a dead guy and finding out > > Lupin is a werewolf I realize that Sirius is really innocent and I > > have to keep him from getting kissed by the dementors so maybe in > > the future I can get away from my evil extended family and live > > with him." Now, Del: > I don't quite see it that way. When Sirius tells Harry that he can > come and live with him if he wants to, it's not just relief Harry is > feeling, it's more like happiness, and it doesn't make too much sense > to me. Yes the Dursleys are awful, but look at what Sirius is > offering him : holidays all alone with a half-mad man who spent 12 > years in Azkaban, can turn into a big black sinister dog, and looks > like a walking nightmare (even Snape must look like a model next to > Sirius at that time). Not my definition of paradise. So why should > Harry be so happy ? Well, he's got that wedding picture with a handsome, laughing Sirius so Harry knows he can clean up nicely. ;-). I agree with one of the other recent posters who spoke about Harry's empathy for Sirius, which came with the realization that Sirius had suffered, as had Harry, because of the same incident. > And as for the Dementors : his concern is more than just "I must save > him so I can get away from the Dursleys". He truly loves that guy. > He's even more worried about Sirius being killed than Hermione ! I > know the Dementors are after Sirius, not Hermione, but if horrible > baddies were after one of my best friends, a teacher I hate and the > scary old friend of my parents' I've just met, I would be much more > concerned about my own friend. But, Harry knows Sirius is the Dementors' target. If he can protect Sirius by driving the Dementors off, by default he's also protecting Hermione and Snape. It's not like this was a case of Harry having to choose one of the three to protect, and leaving the other two to have their souls sucked out. Sarcasticmuppet: > > I don't think love kicked in until GoF, when Harry had a > > decent correspondance with Sirius and realized how much Sirius > > cares about him. Del: > Except that they have a correspondance precisely because Harry > chooses to. He's the one who chooses to turn to Sirius instead of > *anyone else*. Me: But, Sirius has already told Harry to contact him if he needs to do so in the note Harry receives on the train home. "If ever you need me, let me know. Your owl will find me." Or words to that effect. Sirius already had opened that door. Del: Again, I don't see why. If I had to choose between my > best friends, the Headmaster who's always listened to me and who is > so wise, that old friend of my parents' who was such a good teacher > and a good help last year, and the old friend of my parents' who just > spent 12 years in prison and is on the run again and showed signs of > not being completely right in his head, I don't think I would choose > the last one... Me: At the beginning of GoF, Harry doesn't want to write to his friends about his scar hurting because he knows they won't have the answers. He considers writing to Dumbledore, but can't find a way to phrase the letter without, he thinks, sounding like an idiot. He never thinks of Lupin, IIRC. Maybe he can't get past the teacher-student relationship, maybe he figures that Lupin has enough problems of his own, who knows? Maybe JKR is simply manipulating the characters to build evidence of a bond between Harry and Sirius for future plot purposes. And, again, Sirius made the offer at the end of PoA. Harry took him up on it. > > Not to mention that their correspondance is pretty sporadic and quite > bland. Sirius doesn't go much further than the much- > expected : "Ooohh, be careful, stay out of troubles, and let the > adults take care of everything". > > But he *does* come back from hiding to help protect Harry, I grant > you that. Though usually Harry doesn't care much about what others do > for him, unless they are called Sirius or Hagrid... > > Del If the relationship between Harry and Sirius doesn't ring true to you from what you read in canon, then nothing I say will change your opinion. And, I know the feeling. There are some things that I just can't buy, no matter how passionately or logically people can argue them. The evidence as presented in canon requires me to make a leap of faith that consists of "JKR wrote it this way, therefore I must accept it." And, sometimes it just doesn't add up. Marianne From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 12:02:40 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:02:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's mistakes In-Reply-To: <00d401c35787$c385e780$4d9dcdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74630 "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > 1) Not telling Harry about the prophecy to begin with. A mistake? > Maybe. May also have been a mistake to tell an eleven year old (in > so many words) he has to save the world. No win situation on that > one. A middle choice maybe. Explaining to Harry that because of what happened to him, he will be a choice instrument in the battle that will take place against LV, and that he has to fine-tune this instrument (learn as much as possible, practice, etc...), while also insisting on the fact that he's not going to be alone in that fight, that there are tons of other people who are already engaged, people he will learn to know, people he will be able to rely on when he needs to. It would have given Harry a direction, a sense of going somewhere, a goal to work towards, as well as the feeling of belonging to a whole team. Not telling him anything left him feeling like nobody had any idea what was going on with him and that he was completely alone in the midst of his problems. Not good. > 2) Not telling Harry specifically why he wanted him to study > Occlumency. Big mistake. Snape's "because Dumbledore said so" > reasoning isn't enough for Harry, especially after the way > Dumbledore had been acting toward him. And after everyone raving > about how Arthur would've died if not for Harry's dream, you can't > really blame Harry there. Yep. Big, big mistake. First because teenagers need reasons to do things. Trying to force them to do something, especially without telling them why, is almost the surest way to ensure that they won't do it. And second because it terribly reinforced Harry's paranoia : everyone knows things about me and they won't tell me. And since they don't tell him, why should he tell them anything ? In effect, this single decision ensured that all communication between Harry and the adults that could have helped him was severed. Mega-mistake. As for the fact that he actually saved Arthur's life thanks to the dream, DD and Co made another major mistake there. Someone should have talked squarely to Harry about it, explaining to him that yes it was useful that he had that dream, but that the price he might pay for it was way too big. That on the one hand it helped the Order that he had that dream, but that on the other hand it was going to do terrible damage to himself and to the Order if LV ever managed to take him over. > 3) Seemingly not noticing (or not doing anything about it) that > Sirius was rapidly deteriorating while basically kept caged. I think we are getting to the heart of the reason behind DD's mistakes : as someone else said, he's got too much on his plate. He's taking care of Hogwarts, the Order, Umbridge, the MoM, Harry, LV, etc... And he's almost never delegating any responsibility ! I know he's the greatest wizard, but I think *he* knows that a bit too much ! He refused to delegate anything to anyone and he refused to discuss his decisions with those who were concerned by them, which led him straight to the biggest mistake anyone can make : assuming that other people are going to act as you would. I can understand that Harry does that, because he's a teenager, he's got to learn. But DD should have known better. He should have known that neither Harry, nor Sirius, nor Snape, were going to act as he would have. He asked nearly-impossible things from them, assuming that they, like he would have, were going to swallow their pride and pain and get to work for the good of everyone. Except that they didn't, they couldn't, because they don't have his wisdom and experience and endurance. > Someone mentioned that being back in that house to Sirius may have > been a lot like being back in Azkaban again. I agree, a lot of bad > memories must have been there. Sure it was okay when the house was > full of people, but I'm sure there were a lot of long lonely days > and nights there. How could Dumbledore have helped? I'm not > entirely sure, but surely something could have been done. Simple : remove him from there. Why did Sirius have to be in GP ? Lupin didn't seem to be living there, why couldn't Sirius have gone to live with him ? Or maybe in Hogwarts ? In the Forbidden Forest ? Anywhere but in GP. And yes LV and the DE know about his being an Animagus, but so what ? Great big black dogs are not that rare that Sirius would automatically be in danger if he were outside, as long as he wasn't among people who would pinpoint him as being Padfoot. > 4) Okay, this is picky, I'll admit it. But as soon as Dumbledore > got ready to explain everything to Harry, he made another mistake. > He starts right off with "I know how you're feeling, Harry." He > just broke rule number one of dealing with someone who is > grieving! Never ever tell them you know how they feel. Even if > you do. Never say you do, it only opens the door for their "no you > don't" which was Harry's response, of course. That's the number one rule of dealing with someone in pain, but also the number one rule of dealing with a teenager. I remember being one and honestly thinking that almost noone had ever been in as much pain as I was. I was a pretty empathic kid otherwise, but still I couldn't get myself to believe that other people could hurt as much as I did. And now when I hear teens reacting the same way, I'm appalled at how self-centered they are, and I have to forcibly remind myself that I was exactly the same. But as I said before, DD has too much on his mind to still be able to try and figure out how Harry is really feeling and reacting. He still believes that Harry will react the way he DD would. Hence that mistake. > I'm sure I've left out a number of mistakes, but these particular > ones just bounced to the top. Four four years Dumbledore was the > god like figure to Harry. Now, suddenly, he has taken a huge > tumble. Any additions to this list? Yes, but not in OoP. In GoF, Percy gets a major telling-off for failing to notice that his boss was being controlled by LV. Okay, but what about DD ? How could he fail to notice that his so-called friend Mad-Eye Moody was NOT the real Moody ??? After those many years of working together in the Order, of being friends, he can still spend a whole year working with him and not notice how much different he is ? I don't care that Crouch Jr did a good job of imitating Moody, DD should still have noticed *something* ! I think it was already an illustration of DD being so confident in his abilities, in his being the greatest wizard around, that he's loosing interest in other people and he's failing to truly take care of them. My feeling is that DD is taking the different people around him for chess pieces that will move around at his will. And because he's so sure to be the master of the game, he fails to anticipate the moves of his opponents, as well as the fact that his pieces are not going to do what he told them to do. I hate to say that, but I think DD has to humble himself a bit. Del From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Aug 1 12:24:23 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:24:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's mistakes + Sirius Depression? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74631 Kristen wrote: > > 2) Not telling Harry specifically why he wanted him to study > Occlumency. Big mistake. Snape's "because Dumbledore said so" > reasoning isn't enough for Harry, especially after the way Dumbledore > had been acting toward him. And after everyone raving about how > Arthur would've died if not for Harry's dream, you can't really > blame Harry there. then madeyesgal replied: > Me: > "Dumbledore is the greatest wizard of all time." Even Harry defends > that premise. For Harry to question Dumbledore's motives for Harry to > learn anything is arrogant on Harry's part. Since when does Harry > know more than Dumbledore? Me: I agree that Dumbledore probably knows both more than Harry, and more than Harry thinks he knows, but I still don't think that means that no one is allowed to question him. Everyone makes mistakes, Dumbledore even admits that he just made one. Even goodhearted people can be disillusioned by power if everyone just lets them go on and on without ever telling them that they could be wrong here and there... and the whole point of democracy is that everyone should be allowed to have their say, right? I don't know if I explained this right, but I think you know what I mean... Kristen: > > 3) Seemingly not noticing (or not doing anything about it) that > Sirius was rapidly deteriorating while basically kept caged. Yes, it > was for his own good. But yes, he also felt useless and I don't > blame him. Not to mention anybody shut up with Kreacher so much > couldn't help but deteriorate. And that portrait! Ugh. Someone > mentioned that being back in that house to Sirius may have been a lot > like being back in Azkaban again. I agree, a lot of bad memories > must have been there. Sure it was okay when the house was full of > people, but I'm sure there were a lot of long lonely days and nights > there. How could Dumbledore have helped? I'm not entirely sure, but > surely something could have been done. madeyesgal: > This is where I really take issue. I'm a Sirius fan, BUT this feeling > sorry for Sirius being cooped up with his mother's picture and that > scum-bucket house elf, Kreacher really frustrates me to the point of > wanting to yell at my computer and anyone else who will listen. This > is a man who managed to remain sane in Azkaban for heaven's sake. Do > you really believe that Kreacher and his mother's portrait are worse > than Dementors? Sirius was always free to leave the house whenever he > wanted to. While he was TOLD to stay there, he also CHOSE to stay > there. When he wanted to leave, he did. I will not feel sorry for him > in any way and I don't believe it was a mistake to have him stay > there at all. After all, Dumbledore was trying to keep him safe and > alive. If Sirius wanted to risk both, that was his choice, not a > mistake. I think I know which post Kristen is referring to, and I believe the point of it was that the Dementors made Sirius relive every bad memory from his childhood home. I believe it probably felt even worse for Sirius to return there AFTER Azkaban - he may even have felt like being back with the Dementors. The house itself seems to actually BE worse as well; Kreacher is crazier than ever and it's not like any good traits (I believe everyone has some!) of Mrs Black seem to have been invested in her portrait. So if there were any happy memories in the house for Sirius, the Dementors first made him forget them, and then he comes back to the house, and gets this idea of it confirmed! I also think that even though Sirius is most likely a strong person, he must be weakened by his stay at Azkaban, and it could have been harder for him to take his mother's insults this time around. But then of course it was the safe thing for him... I can understand both Dumbledore's motives, and Sirius' dislike of that decision. evangelina - feeling incoherent... From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 1 12:26:57 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:26:57 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading (just got long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > Indifferent to this argument, really. Snape dropped the potion in a > deliberate act of spite. Cover schmover, what difference does one > exceeding pass make unless.... hmmm perhaps it would be prudent not > to let the dark side know Harry can make a real potion. (sarcasm > hint). Blow me over with a feather, Snape wants Harry to defeat the > Dark Lord! > > > In > > this respect his action is ambiguous - I mean, Snape-loathers can > > assume that he is a mean-spirited git, while at the same time > > Snape-lovers can assume that he knows perfectly well Harry has > achieved competence, but for reasons of policy must maintain the anti- > Harry front by giving him a zero, secure in the knowledge that it > makes no difference to the important OWL results. > > I am not a Snape loather. I call myself a realist. > Snapes mystery and secrecy could yet reveal he is no more than a > bitter retrousse who's reasons for being on the side of good are as > scathing and hate filled in detail as his manner as a teacher. > The speculation that he is a deeply angsted sweet-heart who never > beleived with his being that the Dark Arts held no beauty is just > that, speculation. Let it not end, indeed. Snape-lovers have a place > on this list. Of intrigue in a character Snape is the King. > However the brand Snape-loather does not apply to everyone who > refuses to be overwhelmed by the instant compassion that arises from > theories of Snapes long lost love and other such. > > What I am trying to relate is that the boundary you have drawn in > your above statement demonstrates a disregard for the truth. > Indeed a Snape-lover !also! *could* assume that Snape is just a mean > spirited git. June: That's absolutely right. It's the nastiness I find attractive about the character. Before you write me off as weird, let me say that what we may find attractive or intriguing in a literary character are not necessarily characteristics we would like in real life. Possibly the attraction to the character is because they are at the safe remove of a book and not in yer face. > On the other hand a 'Snape-loather' as you put it, if indeed a > loather of any of JKR's creations could possibly exist in HP fandom, > !also! *could* assume Snape is merely maintaining his anti-Harry > front. I am sure if we all did Snape fandom would simply overrun the > list and anyone who spoke ill of the mysterious man would be promptly > booted. > Ok OK perhaps not so definately booted, but I have been lynched on > several occassions by the Snape camp. > The thing that sticks in my craw is the aggro. > Heal the list Snape-Lovers. If you are so filled deeply with > compassion for the underdogs and the abused........... > Why so abusive? Look no abuse!! > > Back to the subject, someone who wanted to handle Snape without the > kid gloves and rose petals might actually agree with this statement > and yet still think it is unfair grading. Is that OK? Or does that > person deserve to have their own character ripped to shreds for it? > Absolutely. You have put it in a nutshell. While sympathising with Snape and admitting he is my favourite character, I do not believe for a moment that all his nastiness is an act. I do not think it possible for the most accomplished double agent to "act a part" for so many years. (Recommend anyone to read "A Perfect Spy" by Le Carre for a look at just how difficult it is to do this) I think the sarcasm is completely unfeigned - why? Because it's just too good and too unstudied. I also think he is on the side of "good" though do not entirely subscribe to any of the prevailing theories as to why yet (more evidence needed I think). The character obviously needs some fairly serious therapy (cognitive behaviour for choice) which seems to be woefully absent in the WW. Yes I am appalled by his apparently awful childhood, yes I think the pensieve incident went way too far. No I don't think those bad past experiences of themselves give anyone a legitimate excuse to behave like he does to Harry in Potions. Plenty people manage to put dreadful childhoods behind them. Basically, his behaviour is not normal - this is one ****** up individual. What is needed before anyone can be sure what he is really up to is a fairly clear explanation from Dumbledore as to just why he trusts him and also a fairly clear retelling of his backstory (from an neutral or indifferent source) to see just what is going on. The interest in the character is because of these issues, and not because he might be Cuddly!Snape! underneath. In summary: Was he always gittish? If not when did he become a git and why? Why is he still a git? And not, no he isn't a git really. For the other Snape fans out there, none of this precludes a heroic resolution to his story, just that we need to add a strong dash of realism when considering the character. And as a Snape fan, do I really want to see him go soft - no not really. I'd like to see him sarcastic to the end. Rubbish! He deliberately > caused Harry to recieve a failed grade in his class. > Right or wrong that's what happened isn't it. Yes - and even the most hardened Snape advocate cannot logically explain this as otherwise. June > Valky. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 12:35:21 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:35:21 -0000 Subject: Why don't they brake or take the wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Liz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > > wrote: > > > Fran: > > > What I do not understand is why wands break so easily....can > anyone > > > shed some light on this? > > > > > > Dan: > > > Well, they are wood, after all. And they're rather long, so it > > would be rather easy to do. > > > -Dan > > > > > Yes, I know they are wood.....but why aren't they magiked some way > so > > they dont break as easily. As important as a wand is to a > > wizard/witch, I would think they would be more durable! > > Fran > > Fran, > > I think this question comes back to the whole "plot wouldn't be the > same if it wasn't that way" answer. There are a lot of things like > that. As you suggest, were I a witch, I would have someone else put > an unbreakable charm on my wand. I would also put unbreakable charms > on a lot of other things. Heck, half my house would > be "unbreakable", but then I've live through the toddler years with a > child we nicknamed "Siva Baby" (as in Siva the destroyer). > > This same answer applies to questions like, "Does Mrs. Weasley not > know the 'reparo' charm? Why else would Ron's bedspread have a rip > in it?" And other Mrs. Weasley questions like, "Why doesn't she > learn some sewing charms and make their clothes and robes if they're > always so broke?" > > Obviously, I was getting a little irked about this sort of thing for > a while. Now I just take deep calming breaths and remind myself that > it's JKR's world and she can do as she darn well pleases to help move > the story along, make points or set the mood. > > It doesn't help, mind you. I still get irked. I mean for heaven's > sake, why are invisibility cloaks rare and expensive if Fred & George > can whip up an invisibility hat in their dorm room? And if you're a > muggle and you've never even heard of the wizarding world, would you > let your son turn down Eaton to go to some mystery school you've > never heard of and don't know where it is? > > I could go on, but I'll just get worked up. > > Liz I hear ya!!! You are correct about this being JKR's world, and we need to go with the flow... I just couldn't knock this wand thing out of my head after reading some of the other wand threads. Also, I was under the probably wrong impression that there is "one perfect wand for the wizard/witch! fran From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 12:39:07 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:39:07 -0000 Subject: Other Implications of the Veil In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74634 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "poet1908" wrote: > I hope I don't get yelled at but the veil also has some Biblical > implications(maybe not for JKR). It just what I thought of when I > read it. The veil in the Old Testament seperated the holy of holy > places for the rest of worshipers. Only the priest could go in. If > a non-priest went in, they tied a rope to him/her so they could pull > them out when they died. The death was associated with the thought > that it was too much to handle to go "beyond the veil." In the NT > the veil was lifted because of Jesus Christ. I am sure that the > people who write the good stuff about HP and Christianity have > already thought of this. > Poet My take on the veil is that it is a way to lure unsuspecting people to thier death, and there is no way out. Remember how Hermione had ot pull Harry and Ginny ( I believe) away from the veil when the group first encountered it. It just seemed sinister to me. Fran From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 12:40:28 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:40:28 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74635 "tania_schr" wrote: > Interesting. Maybe it could be that when Lily was little (even > before she knew she was a witch), she - like Harry - had > some "magical" things happen and something bad happened to Petunia > as a result (kind-of like when Harry accidently enclosed Dudley in > the snake exhibit at the zoo). Beware of movie contamination :-) In the *book*, Harry didn't enclose Dudley in the snake exhibit, he removed the glass between Dudley and the snake. > I have always thought that Petunia was jealous of Lily. I think > if as a kid my brother had found out he had magic powers and got to > go to a special school like Hogwarts and I didn't, I would have > been pretty jealous. Don't think I would have reacted like > Petunia, but people react to things differently. In Petunia's > case, I think her bad feelings about not being included turned into > hatred for the magical world. I don't think she was jealous. To me Petunia feels 2 things regarding the WW : disgusted and scared. 1. Disgusted, because the WW is full of strangeness and weirdness and Petunia seems to be desperately looking for normalcy and belonging. She's like those kids who get so mad at their mom because she's coming to get them in the old car, wearing an unfashionable dress, and with an impossible haircut. They are ashamed, because their mom is different, while they want to be like others. As they grow up, they will discover that it's perfectly okay to be different, and that everyone has a right to be who they want to be. But Petunia seems to be stuck at that stage. 2. Scared, and horrified, because scary things are going on in the WW. She knows about LV, about the Dementors, she mentions "that horrible boy". Obviously she learned that the WW was in the midst of a war when her sister got her letter, and that scared her. But their parents, on the other hand, seemed to be enthusiastic about Lily being a witch, which made Petunia feel misunderstood... Ooh, does that ring a bell ? A teenager, full of strong feelings, and feeling completely misunderstood and ignored by the adults ? Hum ? No wonder Petunia reacted so badly to the whole business ! Del From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 1 12:40:28 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:40:28 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: <3F2A4B3A.5060809@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > Based on the Wizard in the muggle dress in GoF, wanting a 'healthy > breeze around his privates', I tend to think that most wizards might not > wear underwear. > Jazmyn Or is it (dare I ask this) like the Scotsman and his kilt thing? (Grovelling apologies to anyone posting from north of the border - I promise I am not making fun)(Cringes in terror). June From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Aug 1 12:47:51 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:47:51 -0000 Subject: Forever Wicked? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > Aren't you all missing the as yet unveiled hero potential of non > other than the Head of House himself... > > Severus Snape (for it is he IMHO).. > > Holding out for Good!Snape. I can just picture Good!Snape working undercover to recruit every ambivalent Slyth student to the LV resistance movement... evangelina (will full faith in Snape :)) From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 1 12:51:45 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:51:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's mistakes + Sirius Depression? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > Kristen: > > > 3) Seemingly not noticing (or not doing anything about it) that > > Sirius was rapidly deteriorating while basically kept caged. Yes, > it > > was for his own good. But yes, he also felt useless and I don't > > blame him. Not to mention anybody shut up with Kreacher so much > > couldn't help but deteriorate. And that portrait! Ugh. Someone > > mentioned that being back in that house to Sirius may have been a > lot > > like being back in Azkaban again. I agree, a lot of bad memories > > must have been there. Sure it was okay when the house was full of > > people, but I'm sure there were a lot of long lonely days and > nights > > there> > madeyesgal: > > This is where I really take issue. I'm a Sirius fan, BUT this > feeling > > sorry for Sirius being cooped up with his mother's picture and that > > scum-bucket house elf, Kreacher really frustrates me to the point > of > > wanting to yell at my computer and anyone else who will listen. > This > > is a man who managed to remain sane in Azkaban for heaven's sake. > Do > > you really believe that Kreacher and his mother's portrait are > worse > > than Dementors? Sirius was always free to leave the house whenever > he > > wanted to. While he was TOLD to stay there, he also CHOSE to stay > > there. When he wanted to leave, he did. I will not feel sorry for > him > > in any way and I don't believe it was a mistake to have him stay > > there at all. After all, Dumbledore was trying to keep him safe and > > alive. If Sirius wanted to risk both, that was his choice, not a > > mistake. > June: I think in Azkaban, the hope of escape and revenge kept him sane. Both desires were to some extent thwarted by the escape of Pettigrew and his being confined to Grimmauld Place. Before he was in Grimmauld Place he was on the run - which while not ideal was unlikely to cause depression as it involves activity. I think Sirius' greatest fear is inactivity and boredom (the impression I get of him as a teenager is that his worst scrapes come out of being bored). He could cope with the curtailment of physical action in Azkaban because he had his burning grievance to occupy his mind. By the time of the action of OoP this is largely taken away from him. It must feel to him as if he has literally travelled nowhere in his life - he is precisely back where he started from, and where, according to him, he wanted most to get away from. No wonder he got depressed. June From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 12:53:57 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:53:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74639 "paulamore" wrote: > What I'm really waiting for is the summer in Book 7, in which Harry > will finally be legal, which means there'll be a new sheriff in > town. After all, if the powers that be didn't mind a couple of > Muggles practically abusing the savior of wizardkind when he > couldn't do magic, will they object to the reverse when he can? Let me see. He turned 15 in book 5, which means he'll turn 17 in book 7. Is that legal age ? Seems to me like 18 is, since the twins had to wait until this summer to get their Apparition license, and we know they are 18 because they were already 16 at the beginning of GoF (they complained they were only a few months away from the Age Limit of 17 to enter the Tournament). So did I go wrong somewhere, or won't we get to see Harry turned of legal age, since that would be in book 8 ? Del From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 12:59:05 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:59:05 -0000 Subject: Fawkes (was : Neville's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74640 "greatelderone" wrote: > We don't if he regenerates regularly. If Rowling is using the > traditional legend then Fawkes is suppose to burn up every 100 > years with certain exceptions like getting hit by Avada Kedavra in > the Ministry of Magic. Sorry for the sarcasm, but Fawkes would burn only every 100 years, and he would happen to do it *precisely* when Harry is there to see him do it ? Please, give me a break ! Moreover, the very casual way DD says that it was about time he burned because he had been looking awful lately made me feel like he was doing it every few months, every few years at maximum. Del From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 13:10:11 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:10:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer In-Reply-To: <141.167d8ffe.2c5b0829@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, p51263 at a... wrote: > I think Harry will have several questions for Petunia and hopefully she is > able to answer them for him. I also think Harry should go home to his Aunt's and > Uncle house for part of the summer to keep the magic and or bond that his > mom's spell to ensure his life as Dumbdorf has said the OoP. Harry always hated > going or being at the Dursleys house for any lenght of time the might let him > go to the Weasley's or Hermoine's home later and I might be wrong since they > try to prevent him from anything. > Patricia > Unless there is a big change in Petunia's character, she will not talk to Harry about what she knows about magic. Since DD explained why Harry has to go Privet drive every summer, se know he will be there for some period of time. IMHO, Harry's summer in book 6 will be different than presious. While he is at the Dursleys, he will try to talk to whoever it is that is guarding him, and may talk to mrs. Figg more. He will not be as anxious about being away from the WW, and may be releived to be away from it so he can grieve the loss of Sirius in peace and private. I have a feeling that DD will be more in the picture this summer. Harry knows his fate now and probably will not be up for a vacation as he has work to do so to speak. I do hope he had a great b'day party! He needs it! Fran I dont think I can wait 2 or 3 years for the next book....somebody help me...arrrgh! From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 1 13:14:19 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:14:19 -0000 Subject: Wands and Runes (was Re: Fawkes (was : Neville's Wand)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > "greatelderone" wrote: > > > We don't if he regenerates regularly. If Rowling is using the > > traditional legend then Fawkes is suppose to burn up every 100 > > years with certain exceptions like getting hit by Avada Kedavra in > > the Ministry of Magic. > > Sorry for the sarcasm, but Fawkes would burn only every 100 years, > and he would happen to do it *precisely* when Harry is there to see > him do it ? Please, give me a break ! Moreover, the very casual way > DD says that it was about time he burned because he had been looking > awful lately made me feel like he was doing it every few months, > every few years at maximum. > > Del But Harry already has seen Fawkes regenerate, hasn't he. I remember a scene where Harry is in Dumbledores office and Fawks bursts into flame and when they subside, a scrawny, ugly(?) featherless, 'new' Fawkes appears. I did read this, right? I wonder what the significance of Runes is going to be, if at all, to the plot. I looked up the runes that Hermione flubbed in her Owl. Eiwaz, the rune of defense, is apparently associated with the Yew tree (Voldies wand wood) and is also used for 'protection'. The rune itself can pass for a 'lightening' shape (those there is another rune that looks more like it). Serendipity or planning of JKR's part? It's also interesting to note that on the cover of OotP (Canadian version) there is a spattering of the Runic alphabet on the back cover (at the top). Erica From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 13:20:19 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:20:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading (just got long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > wrote: > Rubbish! He deliberately > > caused Harry to recieve a failed grade in his class. > > Right or wrong that's what happened isn't it. >June: > Yes - and even the most hardened Snape advocate cannot logically > explain this as otherwise. > One at least one occassion I suggeted specifically that Snape is fair when it counts and only when it counts. I don't don't think course work count. Therefore the unfair grade doesn't count. Snape is mean, I never denied that. I just think he is also fair about the things he considers important. He really should be fair about everything, but then he wouldn't be Snape. bibphile From pen at pensnest.co.uk Fri Aug 1 13:21:54 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:21:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's (un)fair grading (just got long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1EBE53EE-C423-11D7-94B0-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 74644 On Friday, Aug 1, 2003, at 10:46 Europe/London, M.Clifford wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: > >> *If* the OWLs are based on old-fashioned O-Level exams (and they do >> appear to be), then bibphile is correct: marks awarded in class > during the year are irrelevant to the grades achieved in the OWL > examination. [The current UK equivalent to O-Levels, the GCSEs, *do* > have a considerable element of course-work included in the final > grades. But O-Level grades were awarded solely on examination > performance. And it does appear to me that the OWLs are done in the > same way, entirely by external examiners.] >> > > Valky replies: > Terrific! that puts that debate to bed for me! > Right or wrong there is a possibility that the course work is > involved. Not really a matter I care to debate lengthily, right or > wrong. Why bring it up, then? It seems to me that it is unnecessary to be quite so rude. > >>> >>> Longer answer; A response like this it appears to me,actually begs >>> the question. >>> Does **Snape** know that only the OWLs count on Harry's marks. >> >> Of course he does. > > Valky replies: > Very well then if that's all you wish to say on the matter. It doesn't really seem worth debating the notion that the Hogwards Potions Master has so little idea what is involved with the OWLs that he doesn't know whether the marks he awards count towards the OWLs or not. >>> >>> Why? oh why??? Would he bother awarding a zero or even setting the >>> test if it has no effect on the kids marks. >>> Sheeesh!!! >> >> Huh? >> >> How about, personal satisfaction for Snape, who wanted to upset > Harry? > > Valky's Reply: > I seee.... > Are you saying thats a fair award for Harry's work then? Certainly not, and I have no idea how you could deduce such a thing from what I did say. You asked why he would bother awarding a zero, or even setting the test, if it has no effect on the marks; I offered a possible answer. It is so patently obvious that Snape is not giving Harry the fair reward for his work that I did not think it necessary to mention it. > >> How about, he could pretty well tell from the appearance of the > potion that it would get a good mark, and he couldn't bring himself > to award one (reasons might vary from spite to a deep-cover > disguise). > > Valky's reply: > Indifferent to this argument, really. Snape dropped the potion in a > deliberate act of spite. Cover schmover, what difference does one > exceeding pass make unless.... hmmm perhaps it would be prudent not > to let the dark side know Harry can make a real potion. (sarcasm > hint). Blow me over with a feather, Snape wants Harry to defeat the > Dark Lord! Again, I don't think much of your tone. I offered a possible answer to your 'Why?' - note that my suggested answer was that Snape could not bring himself to award the deserved good mark. That was why he dropped the potion - because if he marked it, the mark would have had to be a good one. His motive for not wishing to award a good mark might, I suggested, vary from spite to deep-cover disguise - interpretation of motives will vary from reader to reader. Which, incidentally, is why Snape is such a fascinating character. > >> In >> this respect his action is ambiguous - I mean, Snape-loathers can >> assume that he is a mean-spirited git, while at the same time >> Snape-lovers can assume that he knows perfectly well Harry has > achieved competence, but for reasons of policy must maintain the anti- > Harry front by giving him a zero, secure in the knowledge that it > makes no difference to the important OWL results. > > I am not a Snape loather. I call myself a realist. > Snapes mystery and secrecy could yet reveal he is no more than a > bitter retrousse who's reasons for being on the side of good are as > scathing and hate filled in detail as his manner as a teacher. > The speculation that he is a deeply angsted sweet-heart who never > beleived with his being that the Dark Arts held no beauty is just > that, speculation. Let it not end, indeed. Snape-lovers have a place > on this list. Of intrigue in a character Snape is the King. > However the brand Snape-loather does not apply to everyone who > refuses to be overwhelmed by the instant compassion that arises from > theories of Snapes long lost love and other such. > > What I am trying to relate is that the boundary you have drawn in > your above statement demonstrates a disregard for the truth. What? Trying, charitably, to assume that you are not being rude on purpose, I have to ask you why my belief that Snape's action is ambiguous is grounds for you to accuse me of lying. I characterised neither myself nor you as either a Snape lover or a Snape loather, but gave two of the possible options for interpreting his behaviour. > Indeed a Snape-lover !also! *could* assume that Snape is just a mean > spirited git. The canon certainly does hold a veritable mass of > inference in support of it. True, and I very nearly said so, but simply didn't bother to belabour the obvious. It would be hard for anyone to deny that canon provides many examples of Snape behaving like a mean spirited git. > So those of us to whom logic is more important *must* accept there > will _always_ be a 'Snape-Lover' who simply _refuses_ to see it that > way. > And while so many of us do with amassed courtesy, there is an > undignified cavort of Snape-Lover creed who dispense with courtesy in > their replies and insult the logic they appear to be unable to > comprehend. > _Told ya I wanted to pick a fight_ :b Yes, but I really don't see why you decided to pick it with me. I'm not at all impressed. > > On the other hand a 'Snape-loather' as you put it, if indeed a > loather of any of JKR's creations could possibly exist in HP fandom, > !also! *could* assume Snape is merely maintaining his anti-Harry > front. I am sure if we all did Snape fandom would simply overrun the > list and anyone who spoke ill of the mysterious man would be promptly > booted. > Ok OK perhaps not so definately booted, but I have been lynched on > several occassions by the Snape camp. > The thing that sticks in my craw is the aggro. > Heal the list Snape-Lovers. If you are so filled deeply with > compassion for the underdogs and the abused........... > Why so abusive? From someone whose 'logic' seems to consist of ranting at odd tangents in response to an attempt to answer what appeared at the time to be reasonable questions, the question 'why so abusive?' seems... hmm. Impertinent. > > Back to the subject, someone who wanted to handle Snape without the > kid gloves and rose petals might actually agree with this statement > and yet still think it is unfair grading. Is that OK? Or does that > person deserve to have their own character ripped to shreds for it? Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you accusing me of ripping your character to shreds? > >> >> As to why he would bother setting a test if it had no effect on the > OWL grades, well, teachers do need some means of assessing their > students' progress, don't they? > This seems to be Snape's method: get the kids to make a potion and > see how well they've done it. Seems entirely >> reasonable to me. Not that I learned Potions, but when I was > studying for my O-Levels, teachers did tend to set us work, and mark > it... >> >> Pen > > Terrific well you've wrapped that up nicely. Obviously Snape is > entirely fair in his behaviour because it didn't count toward the > final mark. This is another example of 'logic', is it? Did I at any stage state that I thought Snape was being 'entirely fair'? I pointed out that if Snape's class marks do not count towards OWLs, then his sabotage of Harry's potion sample was not going to have any effect on Harry's OWL grade. > The debate remains. Snape grades fairly. Rubbish! He deliberately > caused Harry to recieve a failed grade in his class. > Right or wrong that's what happened isn't it. > Snape deliberately caused Harry to get a zero mark, yes. My point is - it doesn't matter; but my logic probably escapes you. Pen From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 13:27:52 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:27:52 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic In-Reply-To: <189.1cf45fe4.2c5b0975@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, p51263 at a... wrote: > I think the reason Petunia hates magic is that She has been Jealous of Lily's beauty and natural ability with magic and Lily found her soul mate in James. Petunia has been placed second in her parents eyes when Lily got her letter to Hogwarts ' Petunia said in the first book that thier parents were proud the day Lily recieved it. > Patricia I do think Petunia was always jelous of Lily. I think their parents favored Lily. Of course, I don't think it was anything approaching the same league as how Petunia treats Dudley and Harry, but I do think it was considerable. Lily was prettier, more easy going, and maybe more talented and she was her parents favorite. The problem was already there. The Hogwarts letter just gave Pettunia something specific to hate about Lily. I admit, I'm basing this on impressions, but we only have about three lines in canon to build on. I disagree about Petunia being jelous over Lily finding James. I fully believe the Vernon and Petunia a very much in love. Vernon put himself between her and Mr. Weasley (who he honestly believed to be dangerous). bibphile From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 13:29:15 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:29:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius Poisoning (was A mole in the order? / Sirius - who is right?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mkaliz" wrote: > Talisman said: > > Or perhaps someone rather good at potions? mkaliz responded: > Hee! Yes, it could definitely be Snape, but that seemed rather too > obvious to me. *Everyone* would automatically suspect him. A really > good spy is someone who no one would ever notice or suspect of doing the dastardly deed. ::eg:: > --kai Talisman's head, popping into your electronic hearth for a moment, says: Since this topic is still bubbling up, I'll just add that it doesn't seem that anyone but the readers are suspecting poisoning--and all of them think that only Voldy's mole would do such a thing. Therefore when they consider "obvious" Snape they conclude he really is still a bad-guy; and so jump, not so obviously, right down the wrong rabbit-hole. No one in the Order is going to go after Snape, because he is obedient to DD. Talisman, who woulldn't mind a bit of toast, if you have it. From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 13:36:55 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:36:55 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74647 Allyson > Not to disagree with your general point--which I largely agree with- - Tonks is not a pureblood. Her father is a muggle. (She tells Harry this when they first meet at the Dursley's; she mentions that her muggle father is untidy. Her mother marrying a muggle is also the reason Sirius gives for his mother burning them off the family tree.) Sorry I don't have the page numbers in front of me. quimbyquidditch > Actually, Ted Tonks is not a muggle. He's a muggle-born wizard. It's mentioned twice (US ed. pp. 50, 113). You're point is right though, Tonks is not pureblood. Her father might very well have dressed her in muggle clothes sometimes as a child, especially if they were visiting his parents. bibphile From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Fri Aug 1 13:46:04 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:46:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74648 Allyson Said: >>> No doubt the robe is the default wizard garment, it's just that I think there must be more to it than that. More than JUST a robe and underpants. Not like what Rickman wears in the films, probably, but SOMETHING. That's what kind of made me think the Snapes were too poor to buy Severus anything but the required school robes, which, for all we know, are meant to be worn over something else, shirt and trousers maybe. I gotta re-read the books and figure this out.<<< Lady Macbeth: It's also possible that for the most part the meaning portrayed by "robes" is lost on a lot of people. IIRC, most instances of the word use "robes" instead of "robe" - including when they're talking about being fitted for school robes. It's POSSIBLE that each and every one of those instances refers to a plural, or more than one set of clothing, but it's also possible that she's using the archaic form of the word - "robes" can also refer simply to "clothing" or "garments". JK may have used the older word "robes" to simply distinguish between Muggle garb and wizard garb. :: Digs up proof :: Here we go, dictionary.com, second definition under "robe": http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=robes robe n. 1.. A long loose flowing outer garment, especially: 1.. An official garment worn on formal occasions to show office or rank, as by a judge or high church official. 2.. An academic gown. 3.. A dressing gown or bathrobe. 2.. robes Clothes; apparel. 3.. A blanket or covering made of material, such as fur or cloth: a lap robe. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Fri Aug 1 14:12:53 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 09:12:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: <004c01c3581b$193e9940$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74649 Dawn Said: >>> I think this is probably the most likely explaination, with the possible lead in to something in the forthcoming storylines, but another thought came to me from something said in another thread. It was suggested that Snape was a racist because of one word used when he was being taunted as a teenager (seen in the pensieve), so perhaps JKR might of been dropping a hint that not everything said by a teenage student to another is to be taken as a sign that they are deeply tainted with racist beliefs?<<< Lady Macbeth: I think this is VERY likely the large amount of it. Children (and teens) use words EVERY DAY that they don't truly grasp the meaning of, yet are potentially derogatory. I don't know if British slang follows American slang, so some of these may only be known in context in the U.S., but off the top of my head I can think of the following words used in local talk that people don't understand the derogatory connotations to them: jewed - to rip off, to bargain unfairly with - common vocabulary, but technically an ethnic slur against Jews: derived from stereotyping of Jewish business practices during the Middle Ages gypped/gipped - to rip off, to deprive by fraud or swindle - common vocabulary, but technically an ethnic slur against Gypsies: derived from stereotyping of Gypsy habits in England and the early United States How many times have you or someone you know looked at something lame or stupid and referred to it as "gay" or "retarded"? I won't go into the number of INTENTIONALLY offensive slurs used against American Indians, blacks, Chinese, etc in this area that little kids pick up without knowing the meaning. It was brought to my attention a few days ago that kids have started using the word "Nazi" to describe adults or teenagers whom they think are dominating or overbearing. (I -REALLY- need to keep up with youngsters' talk better. ^^; ) The parent in question settled the problem by sitting her mouthy young man down in front of a tv playing Shindler's List, and he's had a better respect for the word "Nazi" ever since, but I know MANY parents who won't let anyone in their family under 17 watch that movie - so what's to keep them from calling others Nazis, maybe even unintentionally offending a former POW with it? And JUST because they are a teenager, and theoretically SHOULD know what a word means, doesn't mean they do. I was 13 when I got in trouble for using the word "slut" without knowing what it meant - and I know many of my classmates who are VERY inept in historical knowledge. I know plenty of adults who don't know how the word "gypped" could be offensive to anyone, or even where it originated. Children are mocking birds and repeat what they hear without thinking. Teenagers are rebellious and like the shock value of words they KNOW are offensive, but don't know WHY they're offensive. Neither indicates racism - racism is a learned behavior, not an instinctual one. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 14:20:27 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:20:27 -0000 Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: <410-220037431234512276@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74650 Ariadne asked: > "I'm wondering about the Slytherin who could see the thestrals with > Harry and Neville--who is he, why could he see them, and will this > be important for the future?" "Wendy St John" answered: > I think it's Blaise Zabini, who got sorted into Slytherin in > Harry's first year. I, Del, say : What about Nott Jr ? Wasn't s/he sorted in Slytherin that same year too ? Could be another House/year, though, I don't have my books with me. > CANON: Harry does not know thestral guy's name. I agree with you that this guy's name must be terribly important. First because Harry doesn't know it, which is higly suspicious in my opinion, but also because Hagrid is interrupted by Umbridge right when he's going to say his name. Del From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Aug 1 14:33:05 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:33:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Wand / Neville's Plant (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: <200307311024.02516.silmariel@telefonica.net> References: <200307311024.02516.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <200308011633.06052.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74651 flying_meese: <> You are right. Not any feather, a tail feather, as Ollivander describes in PS, I think. If there is another explicit requirement for the feather that would exclude the golden tail feather of Fawkes and she has not given it by now I would feel cheated by Rowling, you know. Because the only golden feathers that Fawkes has are in the tail, I think is described in GoF. Sorry if I can't quote canon but I don't know the books by heart and my boyfriend has borrowed all of them from me (he's quitting smoking). Del <> Well, it is again my boyfriend. He 'predicted' before OoP that: Neville's birthday was near Harry's (he said 24h of difference) Neville's book was going to be important and it would have to do with his family, curing his fathers or something like that. I didn't give him credit, because it was a part of his 'Neville and Harry are Twin brothers'. It included things like the real Neville Longbottom born dead or killed by Voldie first. He also has theories as DD being a vampire, so it's no wonder I don't defend his ideas in this forum, but when I read the phrophecy and the mimbulus mimbletonia thing, I started looking at him other way, that's for sure. I'm with you on this. The book and the plant, together, are going to be useful. silmariel From ktd7 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 06:35:35 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:35:35 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" > > Nobody speaks to her, > >nobody comments on it, nobody even raises an eyebrow or > >looks troubled or surprised. > > Oh yes, they do. > > "He's not a horse, he's a Centaur!" said Lavender, sounding > shocked. > > It isn't the first time Hermione has come out with something like > this, either. In PoA ch. 17: > > "NO!" Hermione screamed. "Harry, don't trust him, he's been > helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too--*he's a > werewolf*!" (emphasis Rowling's) > > Try changing "werewolf" to the ethnic signifier of your choice and > see how it sounds. > > I think Rowling is trying to show us just how insidious prejudice > is. Even a well-meaning person like Hermione can fall prey to > stereotyping. > > Pippin Isn't it possible that Hermione has a fear of horses? It is not that odd a fear. If someone were afraid of horses, a centaur would be pretty intimidating. Also, the Centaurs, by their own choice, wanted to be aligned with the "beasts" not the humans, according to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. They have actively tried to keep separated from human wizards and other "races". By their own definition, they are superior to the human wizards, so racism could be said to gallop (pardon the pun) through their herds. Karen - "Nitwit! Blubber! Oddment! Tweak!" From koukla_es at yahoo.es Fri Aug 1 08:41:45 2003 From: koukla_es at yahoo.es (neith_seshat) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:41:45 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74653 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quimbyquidditch" wrote: > Tonks is not a pureblood. Her father is a muggle. (She tells Harry this when they first meet at the Dursley's; she mentions that her > muggle father is untidy. Her mother marrying a muggle is also the > reason Sirius gives for his mother burning them off the family tree.) I don't have the book handy, but I reckon Sirius told Harry Andromeda Black (Tonkk's mother) married Ted Tonks, a muggle-born, not a muggle. Neith From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 1 12:43:56 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:43:56 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment (Lavendar and Parvati on Hermione) In-Reply-To: <20030731232604.78534.qmail@web40204.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74654 > Well, let me phrase my thought in another way. You're a thirteen > year old girl. Two girls that you DO NOT like by any stretch of > the imagination are dreamily talking about a guy they think is > soooooo cute.... sigh. Excuse me but why should Hermione hate Parvati and Lavendar? They haven't done anything much to her other than not really be her friend and that is hardly cruel. Simply they aren't alike I know in most schools girls like that would be cruel little snots and mock Hermione or make her life hellish. But fact is that hasn't happened at Hogwarts. And likewise Neville is treated rather nicely. The only girl who mocks Hermione is Pansey. So why should Hermione mock them? They didn't seem to mock her for having a crush on Lockhart. And really wasn't that the same thing? >> "Oh, I don't know. I don't think he's so great." "What do you > MEAN?? He's the dreamiest!" they squeal at you. But Hermione added a snide racist comment to the mix. Pippin: NO!" Hermione screamed. "Harry, don't trust him, he's been helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too--*he's a werewolf*!" (emphasis Rowling's) Try changing "werewolf" to the ethnic signifier of your choice and see how it sounds. I think Rowling is trying to show us just how insidious prejudice is. Even a well-meaning person like Hermione can fall prey to stereotyping. Golly: But then it really doesn't work as a lesson because Rowling never pulls it through for us. With the werewolf we learn that Hermione was wrong and this was before she stopped entirely trusting her schoolbooks. Hermione now knows better than this. Either that or her character isn't growing at all. Which is the worse literary sin? From elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 12:45:42 2003 From: elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com (mrslestrange) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:45:42 -0000 Subject: why the Potter house was destroyed/Switching Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74655 Hi, all. My first post! The only reason that I WAS hesitant to believe the James/Lupin switch theory was that, given the circumstances of that night, it would have been unethical, if not cowardly, to do such a switch. However... Regarding the wand scene in GoF, Wormtail's hand flies out of the wand, so we know that the wand isn't poofing out people's spirits, just their forms. Yes, they speak encouragement, it's true, but I don't think we should mistake them for ghosts. And note in PoA the discussion Harry and Lupin have about the Dementor's Kiss; it's even stranger than the Patronus conversation. What if, and please bean me if I'm going too far out on a limb, what if there was no ethical question about switching with Lupin because Lupin was *already gone* (met with Dementors, been kissed)??? It's the only way, currently, I can account for his reaction in that conver From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 1 13:18:16 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:18:16 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: <004c01c3581b$193e9940$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74656 > It was suggested that Snape was a racist because of one word used when he was being taunted as a teenager (seen in the pensieve), so perhaps JKR might of been dropping a hint that not everything said by a teenage student to another is to be taken as a sign that they are deeply tainted with racist beliefs? > > Dawn I'm sorry but no matter what you actually believe the hurling of racist comments only promotes racism and the idea that being publically racist is ok. If you can't make racist people tolerant, you can do your best to make them ashamed. Whether Hermione's comment is a signal of deep seaded racism or just a shallow (if tasteless) oneliner, it is still a racist joke. Thus unacceptable in my opinion. I notice Hermione is very hard in this book. She's not all together nice (except to Harry) but I honestly don't think this comment is a signal of some deeper meaning. I think it is meant to be funny. We get no indication that Hermione is wrong for this comment. She doesn't learn from it and all we get is the shocked reaction from Lavendar or Parvati (do they even have separate personalities anymore?) But really for their to be a moral point ot this comment Rowling needs to take it and bring it back to us with some sort of reaction that affects the reader or Hermione to show it is wrong. She really never does this. There is no action/reaction in the text to suggest a moral point to this line. Or at least I don't think there is. Golly. From robinryder934 at netscape.net Fri Aug 1 13:25:06 2003 From: robinryder934 at netscape.net (ryderrobin) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:25:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74657 Del wrote: > Let me see. He turned 15 in book 5, which means he'll turn 17 in book > 7. Is that legal age ? Seems to me like 18 is, since the twins had to > wait until this summer to get their Apparition license, and we know > they are 18 because they were already 16 at the beginning of GoF > (they complained they were only a few months away from the Age Limit > of 17 to enter the Tournament). > So did I go wrong somewhere, or won't we get to see Harry turned of > legal age, since that would be in book 8 ? At the beginning of GoF (in september/october), the twins were almost 17. That means at the beginning of OotP, they were almost 18. But not 18 yet. So 17 is legal age, since they already had their Apparition license in august. Pruneau From elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 13:20:31 2003 From: elizabethleclerc at hotmail.com (mrslestrange) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:20:31 -0000 Subject: Dobby's the final blow?/Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74658 Hmm, this "the weak defeating the powerful" idea aligns nicely with another way one could read the prophecy in OoP. Folks have debated Harry's actual scar as evidence of "marking," versus Neville's psychological scars, but what if Rowling has pulled another word trick? What if LV makes the mistake of *listening* to Neville as an equal? Let the rotten tomatoes co From wgouine1 at mac.com Fri Aug 1 13:37:21 2003 From: wgouine1 at mac.com (wendy) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:37:21 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74659 > I do think Petunia was always jelous of Lily. I think their parents > favored Lily. Of course, I don't think it was anything approaching > the same league as how Petunia treats Dudley and Harry, but I do > think it was considerable. Lily was prettier, more easy going, and > maybe more talented and she was her parents favorite. The problem > was already there. The Hogwarts letter just gave Pettunia something > specific to hate about Lily. I. I am wondering if Harry's increased confidence in interacting w/ Petunia and Vernon is going to include some frank discussions. In OoP he is ready to defy them...but still protects Dudley so there has to be some respect there. My next thought wanders to Dudley & Harry. How will their relationship change? I am also pacing waiting to see what happens in book six. So many cliff hangers. Is there a tenative date for realse of book six? From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 14:47:07 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:47:07 -0000 Subject: A Good Slytherin? (Was: Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: <410-2200385141544647@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74661 Wendy St John wrote: > But I just can't get past feeling that it is *very, very* strange > that Harry has been in potions class with this kid for *five > years* and doesn't know his name. Has Snape *never* called on "Mr." > Zabini in class? Aside from the question of whether or not Blaise > could be a good Slyth, I think it says something about Harry: > either he is so unobservant he doesn't notice the other students in > the class, or there is something else going on in terms of his > personality. Or, as I said in another post, the problem is that this boy's name is so important that JKR simply can't reveal it. It wouldn't be the first time she creates a major plot hole in order to cover important information up (like Harry not even being aware that Sirius was his dad's best friend, and Harry's godfather). Del From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 1 13:45:25 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:45:25 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summer holidays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74662 > I don't think that we have enough information to conclude that > Snape had such a horrid childhood that it would be worse than > losing one's parents and being raised by hatefull relatives who > bully you, underfeed you, have you sleep in a cupboard and work > you hard, etc. All we saw of Snape's family was a (presumably) > angry father shouting at a scared looking (presumably) mother. > Even the best parent sometimes screams at their kids > (see Molly Weasely :-)). Molly may yell at the kids and they fear her wrath but she doesn't yell at Arthur - not really like that. And the kids don't cower in corners. All evidence points to an abusive childhood for Snape - or one where his mother was abused which IMHO is a form of child abuse. Yes it isn't as bad as Harry's but really you must admit that Rowling overdid it with Harry and that Harry is relatively unaffected by his horrible childhood. I am sure that Harry is Snape's reflection. What Harry could be if he lets himself get mired in selfpity. But he won't. > > I think Snape's REAL worst memories are a lot worse > > than the ones we saw - apart from possible childhood abuse there > was > > probably something fairly traumatic that made him decide to leave > the > > DEs.) > Rowling said it was his "worst memory". I see no reason to doubt that. She didn't call it Snape's most embarrassing memory - but she could have. It may be a little silly but you can't do anything to reform canon. > > > It all makes me wonder where on earth he finds a happy enough > > memory to help him conjure a patronus when he's in a tight corner > > with a Dementor? > > Has he ever faced a dementor? > Everyone has happy moments. Even lonely people. Perhaps the day he left the DE. Perhaps the day he got his OWL marks. Perhaps the first time a girl kissed him or said she loved him.... (or such...) - and yes I believe Snape has had a girlfriend. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 14:17:28 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:17:28 -0000 Subject: Ginny at the end of OOtP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74663 Did any one notice that Ginny is back being smitten with Harry? She is curled up at the foot of Hermione's bed (another cat like reference to Ginny) she looks at Harry, smiles or giggles (not sure which, but I think she giggled, probably both) and hides her face from him. She doesn't say a word just like before, but this time her feelings seem to not cause the panic in her as they did in the first place, just a severe case of the warm fuzzies. Or am I trying to recreate the Ginny / Harry ship possibility again? From jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 14:29:53 2003 From: jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com (Jonathan) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:29:53 -0000 Subject: Prediction: Snape to DADA, then killed Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74664 OK... here's my reasoning for this Book 6 prediction: Harry has realized he needs to continue potions to be an Auror. He probably did fine on his OWL without Snape ("That's Professor Snape, Harry") looking over his shoulder. However, I think it would be unrealistic for Harry to get more than an "E". Sure, Dumbledore could put pressure on Snape to accept Harry into NEWT level with less than an "O", but I think it would be too far out of character for Snape to make any special allowance for Harry, of all people. So, Snape finally gets his DADA position. Harry can take NEWT potions under an instructor who allows "E" level OWLs. For literary purposes, Harry is still stuck with regular Snape classes. (Might even be fun to see the dynamic if Harry is better at some DADA spells than Snape.) Alas, DADA instructors do not last more than one year. So, Snape is finally caught by Voldemort and killed. (Maybe indecision on Harry's part delay's a rescue plan and thereby allows Snape's death.) Finally, as Dumbledore does the end-of-book wrap up, we learn why Dumbledore trusted Snape. And... Harry can feel even more guilt for not trusting Snape all those years despite Dumbledore and Hermione's admonitions. -JW From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 14:40:32 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:40:32 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74665 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > > Based on the Wizard in the muggle dress in GoF, wanting a 'healthy > > breeze around his privates', I tend to think that most wizards > might not > > wear underwear. > Jazmyn > > Or is it (dare I ask this) like the Scotsman and his kilt thing? > > (Grovelling apologies to anyone posting from north of the border - I > promise I am not making fun)(Cringes in terror). > > June Don't you think it could be just personal preference? I wear boxers, while my brother wears bikini briefs, and a frien of ours goes combat ready as the wizard did in GOF. So I see no corelation between under garments and the pureblood non-pureblood thing. Just my observation. From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 14:54:51 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:54:51 -0000 Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > Ariadne asked: > > > "I'm wondering about the Slytherin who could see the thestrals with > > Harry and Neville--who is he, why could he see them, and will this > > be important for the future?" > > "Wendy St John" answered: > > > I think it's Blaise Zabini, who got sorted into Slytherin in > > Harry's first year. > > I, Del, say : > > What about Nott Jr ? Wasn't s/he sorted in Slytherin that same year > too ? Could be another House/year, though, I don't have my books with > me. We saw Theodore Nott later in the book. If he was the one that had seen the thestrals then I think Harry would have thought about it and we'd know. bibphile From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 14:57:46 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:57:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) References: Message-ID: <00ac01c3583d$45ba6a40$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74668 Historically, when people would write of wearing robes, they would see no need to go into the details of what they wore underneath, but you would expect them to wear at least some form of shirt/shift/chemise and hose, as well as underpants (records of male, hints that females had a similar garment). However, sometimes there were a whole series of garments worn under the robes, depending on the fashion, social status and the season. If wizard robes follow a similar fashion, then there is no reason to suppose that it would be irregular to wear nothing but underwear underneath, or a full set of clothes. Trousers are a fairly recent development (less than 200 years) and I can see that, given the longevity and conservatism of many families, it would not be common practice to provide these new fangled garments to the youth of the household. As for the fact that the young Snape appears to only be wearing underpants under his robes, suprisingly enough it can get quite hot in Scotland in the months of June and July - perhaps that is why everyone seems to head outside rather than back to their commomrooms after the exam? My husband would like me to add this final thought. What's worn under a wizards robes? Nothing - it's all in good working order ;) Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 14:58:24 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:58:24 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summer holidays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74669 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: Rowling said it was his "worst memory". I see no reason to doubt that. She didn't call it Snape's most embarrassing memory - but she could have. It may be a little silly but you can't do anything to reform canon. > I disagree. I think it was called the worst for one of two reason. 1. Harry assumed it was thw worst because it was what Snape chose to put in the pensieve. 2. It was the worst memory for Harry to see. bibphile From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 15:00:44 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:00:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summer holidays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > I disagree. I think it was called the worst for one of two reason. > 1. Harry assumed it was thw worst because it was what Snape chose to > put in the pensieve. 2. It was the worst memory for Harry to see. > Oh, or it wasn't really his worst experience, but it was one of the memories that haunts him the most. As in, he's made on uneasy peace with most of his other memories. bibphile From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 15:07:37 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:07:37 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74671 "ryderrobin" wrote: > At the beginning of GoF (in september/october), the twins were > almost 17. That means at the beginning of OotP, they were almost > 18. But not 18 yet. So 17 is legal age, since they already had > their Apparition license in august. Yeah :-) ! I *knew* I must be wrong somewhere :-) I'm horribly bad with ages and numbers. Thanks for putting me straight. Del From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 15:08:22 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:08:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment (Lavendar and Parvati on Hermione) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030801150822.18166.qmail@web40208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74672 --- feetmadeofclay wrote: > Excuse me but why should Hermione hate Parvati and Lavendar? > They > haven't done anything much to her other than not really be her > friend > and that is hardly cruel. Simply they aren't alike I know in > most > schools girls like that would be cruel little snots and mock > Hermione > or make her life hellish. But fact is that hasn't happened at > Hogwarts. And likewise Neville is treated rather nicely. The > only > girl who mocks Hermione is Pansey. I got the distinct impression in book 3 that Hermione found them rather annoying with how they carried on over Trelawney. Trelawney touched a huge nerve with Hermione. Trelawney insulted her in front of the class, making her so angry that she, of all people, would walk out of the class. IMO, Parvati and Lavender are kind of irritating - I think that's what makes them fun. I didn't say Hermione hated them, but I think it's clear that she certainly doesn't /like/ these two girls. I apologise for not finding this 'deeper meaning' or racial bias of Hermione's that some seemed to find in this exchange, you all might be right. But I found it to have been intended rather innocently, not an intentional insult of centaurs or Firenze. I've seen this same sort exchange before dozens of times, I took part in exchanges like this when I was a kid. This doesn't mean that what she said /wasn't/ offensive - I'm sure Firenze would have had a thing or two to say in response to this comment. But I don't believe it was malicious. I believe it was a kid comment which hadn't been thought through. Having several younger siblings and a stepson just a bit younger, I can't possibly tell you the staggering number of things they say which aren't meant to be mean, aren't supposed to be cruel, but are just plain stupid and without foresight. Just the other day, my 15yr old brother was in the presence of a friend when he made a VERY off-color comment about jumping some attractive movie star. He's 15, just starting going to a weekly movie with a pretty girl (his first girlfriend!) and knows better than this, but at 15, he's a bit of a dork. I'm just trying to say that Hermione isn't necessarily against those of other races, or those who have multiple pairs of legs. She's 15 and in the presence of two people whom she doesn't like much. It's a volatile mix, and it can result in some spectacular idiocy - remember the Snape prank? Happens to the best of them. A few more knuts to the ante :o) (And for any 15yr olds out there, bless you! I love your age. Enjoy it!) Lisa G __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Aug 1 15:14:24 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:14:24 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prediction: Snape to DADA, then killed References: Message-ID: <001d01c3583f$98363860$199ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74673 JW wrote: > Alas, DADA instructors do not last more than one year. So, Snape is > finally caught by Voldemort and killed. (Maybe indecision on Harry's > part delay's a rescue plan and thereby allows Snape's death.) > > Finally, as Dumbledore does the end-of-book wrap up, we learn why > Dumbledore trusted Snape. And... Harry can feel even more guilt for > not trusting Snape all those years despite Dumbledore and Hermione's > admonitions. That theory's possible. Interesting if Harry's favorite class would suddenly be taught by Snape. Poor Harry. :) However, I think there's a good reason why Dumbledore hasn't told Harry why he trusts Snape. I think it would make him hate Snape even more, but at the same time, if he'd stop long enough to think about it, make him trust Snape as well. However, it's getting past that hatred that's the hard part. A sample senario: Suppose Snape was the person who overheard the prophecy. He tells Voldemort the first part (whether he heard the whole thing or not could then be argued, but I'll skip it), thinking Voldemort will know who to keep an eye on, steer clear of, worry about later. Then Voldemort says, great, let's go kill these babies. Now, if there's any heart left in a person at all, that would awaken it. Kill babies? Innocents? Who are completely helpless and unable to defend themselves? Hardly a fair way to fight. Kill them when they're older, kill them once they can wave a wand and fight back. But to kill a baby? So, Snape realizes he's made a big mistake, etc. Having known Dumbledore in the past as a student and knowing perhaps that Dumbledore is one for second chances, not to mention the only wizard Voldemort feared, Snape then goes to him and says in so many words, look, I'm an idiot, I told Voldemort etc. Dumbledore now knows Voldemort knows. But Voldemort doesn't know Dumbledore knows he knows. Got that? So now Dumbledore knows Voldemort's coming after possibly both the Potters and Longbottoms. Alerts them. Secret keepers, etc. Pettigrew betrays them, Potters killed, curse bounces, the rest is history. In a scenario like that, if Dumbledore told Harry why he trusts Snape, regardless of the fact that it proved Snape's good intentions to Dumbledore, all Harry would see was the part where Snape told Voldemort the prophecy and therefore lead to his parents death. And have something else to blame Snape for. Obviously I have little or no canon for any of that, except perhaps for this. A) Dumbledore tells Harry almost everything he asks (Longbottoms, etc.), yet refuses to tell him why he trusts Snape. Which leads me to believe it's because it would hurt Harry more, lead to further hatred, etc. B) Someone did hear the prophecy, someone who was thrown out of Hogs Head, and Snape never goes to Hogsmeade, does he? Okay, so it's not quite his cup of tea. :) So again, pure speculation, but it's fun to speculate, right? Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 15:26:09 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:26:09 -0000 Subject: A Case of Sirius Neglect? (was Re: Sirius - who is right?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74674 Pippin wrote: > IIRC, we never see Dumbledore and Sirius interact in OOP, so > how can we draw conclusions about how Dumbledore behaved > toward Sirius? and darkkitten added: > I don't remember them interacting directly either, though I could be > wrong. I based mine on what Dumbledore says about Sirius to Harry > after Sirius's death, and on what we know about Sirius's situation > at Grimmauld Place from Harry. Now me: While it is true that we don't witness Dumbledore and Sirius interacting in OoP, I base my conclusions on how Dumbledore behaved toward Sirius on various statements made through OoP by Sirius and others. For example, Sirius in Ch. 5: "There's not much I can do for the Order of the Phoenix...or so Dumbledore feels."; Molly in Ch. 5: "Meaning you have been known to act rashly, Sirius, which is why Dumbledore keeps reminding you to stay at home and ? "; Molly in Ch. 6: "'Professor Dumbledore doesn't think it's a good idea for Sirius to go with you, and I must say I ? ' ' ? think he's quite right,' said Sirius through clenched teeth." And, most telling of all IMO, is as darkkitten says, Dumbledore's own words in Ch. 37: "Sirius was much too old and clever to have allowed such feeble taunts to hurt him." Well, whether or not we agree that Snape's taunts were "feeble," they *did* hurt Sirius ? to the point where Sirius was prepared to duel with Snape over such "feeble taunts." I really think Dumbledore completely underestimated the impact of keeping Sirius as a psudo-prisoner in his parents' home while one of his arch- rivals (Snape) was not only allowed to play a key role in the activities of the Order, but was also permitted to flaunt his position and freedom over Sirius. I said: > It strikes me that, with respect to both Harry and Sirius, > Dumbledore makes it clear that their survival is more important > to him (Dumbledore) than their mental health. and Pippin answered: > Well, yes. It's possible to recover from emotional wounds, if not > as well or as quickly as Dumbledore hoped. It's not possible to > recover from being *dead.* and darkkitten added: > But the Order has time to do more than worry about sheer survival; > there are long dinner discussions, sessions spent cleaning the scary > Black house of its magical denizens, and in general quite a bit of > waiting. This is the time that could be spent trying to look after > one another, IMO. Me again: Exactly. I wasn't trying to say that survival should take a back seat to mental health ? obviously, if you're dead, your mental health is fairly irrelevant (unless, I suppose, if you decide to become a ghost!). The point I was trying to make was that IMO, caring for one's mental health should be just as important as ensuring one's survival ? that survival shouldn't preclude caring about someone's state of mind. I don't think the two need to be exclusive. If it's too dangerous to send a member of the Order or one of Harry's friends to Privet Dr., then Dumbledore could have gone himself (since he doesn't need an Invisibility Cloak to become invisible) or he could have sent some form of communication himself (since as even Harry notes, Dumbledore surely knows other ways of communicating besides owls). And if Dumbledore's concern is Voldemort thinking that he and Harry are close, surely just one visit or communication from Dumbledore wouldn't have given that away. I don't see the teas with Mrs. Figg as helping Harry out at all, since at that time, he didn't know she was connected to the magical world and she presumably therefore couldn't help Harry sort through his feelings about the graveyard. I said: > And to top it all off, Dumbledore allows Harry's two best friends > - Ron and Hermione - to spend the summer at the headquarters > of the Order while Harry is locked up without communication at > Privet Drive. Talk about rubbing it in! and Pippin responded: > Sirius, Ron and Hermione were communicating with Harry. > Vernon complains about all the owls. They just weren't allowed > to give him any news about the top secret Order of the Phoenix. > You know, if you have a security clearance from our Muggle > government, you're not allowed to discuss stuff with your friends > and family, much less write it down and mail it. Me again: They were communicating with him, but their communications were more aggravating than helpful since they offered tantalizing hints of all of the information and events that Harry was missing out on. While I acknowledge that the communications couldn't go into detail for security reasons, I still maintain that it would have been more fair to Harry to not have his friends arrive at Grimmauld Place until Harry could get there himself. ~Phyllis From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 06:49:05 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 06:49:05 -0000 Subject: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74675 snosageau wrote: > > As interesting as that would be, it can't happen because we've > > already been told that Fawkes only gave up two feathers - > > Harry's and LV's. Geoff: > 'twas in the first and fourth books. Mr. Ollivander tells HP in > the "Diagon Alley" chapter in PS that only two feathers came from > the phoenix and DD in the "Parting of the Ways" chapter in GOF > confirms that the phoenix involved was Fawkes. >>> Fawkes could have donated more feathers since then. Ollivander has to get his materials from somewhere. Olaf From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 15:35:24 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:35:24 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summer holidays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: 'Snip' > I am sure that Harry is Snape's reflection. What Harry could be if he lets himself get mired in self pity. But he won't. > > I think Snape's REAL worst memories are a lot worse than the ones we saw - apart from possible childhood abuse there was probably something fairly traumatic that made him decide to leave the DEs. > > > Rowling said it was his "worst memory". I see no reason to doubt > that. She didn't call it Snape's most embarrassing memory - but she could have. It may be a little silly but you can't do anything to reform canon. 'Snip' > Everyone has happy moments. Even lonely people. Perhaps the day he left the DE. Perhaps the day he got his OWL marks. Perhaps the first time a girl kissed him or said she loved him.... (or such...) - and yes I believe Snape has had a girlfriend. *****\(@@)/***** I agree with feetmadeofclay on Harry being Snape's reflection. Harry can make a choice - does he want to become someone like Dumbledore or like Snape? He knows the choices are his to make as to what path he will go. As for the "worst memory" to cause Snape to leave the DEs could it possibly be he was ordered to kill Lily? (just throwing that one out there) Instead of a girlfriend how about unrequited love for Lily. Something he never revealed to her or anyone? Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 08:03:21 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:03:21 -0000 Subject: Elixir of Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathy" wrote: "biggladolaf" wrote: > > Hi. I am Olaf, glad and big, and this is my first post. > > What I'm wondering is why, in SS, Voldemort/Quirrel didn't nip down to Devon and pinch some elixir from Nicholas Flamel? His house is > > probably a much easier target for a B&E job than Gringott's or > > Hogwarts. KathyK: > What if Quirrel tried to get at Flamel and was somehow unsuccessful? Or maybe he couldn't get any elixir but managed to discover the whereabouts of the stone when he learned it was not with Flamel. Flamel then warns Dumbledore that someone is after the stone, though he doesn't know it's Hogwart's DADA teacher. Dumbledore then has Hagrid take the stone from it's vault at Gringott's to Hogwarts where Dumbledore is able to give it proper protection. > I don't think it's mentioned anywhere in PS/SS why they decided to > move the stone to Hogwarts at that particular time. There must have been some reason to believe that it was in danger at the bank. > Perhaps an attempt to steal the elixir alerted them to the danger. >> Yeah, it does make sense. Maybe he tried and Flamel wasn't the pushover Voldemort thought he would be. Still, robbing a house in Devon seems like it would be a lot easier than robbing Gringotts. . . Olaf, glad and big From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 08:13:40 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 08:13:40 -0000 Subject: Elixir of Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74678 Another thing I thought of just now (4 am, so dont expect much) - Flamel is in fact a muggle. Maybe Voldemort has no real way of getting control over him. He is also immortal anyway, so Voldemort has nothing to offer him. (And can't kill him either.) Maybe Voldemort is just more at home in the wizarding world. Olaf, glad and big From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 15:39:35 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:39:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment References: Message-ID: <00b501c35843$40ba2520$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74679 From: feetmadeofclay > It was suggested that Snape was a racist because of one word used when he was being taunted as a teenager (seen in the pensieve), so perhaps JKR might of been dropping a hint that not everything said by a teenage student to another is to be taken as a sign that they are deeply tainted with racist beliefs? > > Dawn I'm sorry but no matter what you actually believe the hurling of racist comments only promotes racism and the idea that being publically racist is ok. If you can't make racist people tolerant, you can do your best to make them ashamed. >> ----- I too agree that racist comments *can* promote racism, but as has already been pointed out, many comments being made, particularly by school children are the result of ignorance, and simply smacking them with censorship of language will not make them more tolerant or ashamed, just drive them underground to fester out of sight. I have problems with the way Hermione behaves towards nonhuman magical creatures anyway. She is campaigning for the poor benigted house elves, whom she sees as a lowly creature in need of reeducation and protecting from their established way of life, but is derogatory and ultimately insultingly ignorant of the intelligent, independant and proud centaurs. Maybe JKR doesn't beat the anti-racism drum at every opportunity, but maybe she is also letting us know by more subtle means that even well informed and well meaning people are not always correct in their assumptions. This doesn't make them bad people, simply imperfect. It's a good thing for anyone to remember there is always room for improvemnt. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 15:41:52 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 08:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030801154152.33452.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74680 --- quimbyquidditch wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Allyson wrote: > jeans and a t-shirt > in OoP. > > Not to disagree with your general point--which I > largely agree with-- > Tonks is not a pureblood. Her father is a muggle. > (She tells Harry > this when they first meet at the Dursley's; she > mentions that her > muggle father is untidy. Her mother marrying a > muggle is also the > reason Sirius gives for his mother burning them off > the family tree.) > > Sorry I don't have the page numbers in front of me. > > quimbyquidditch > Her father is muggle-born, not muggle. A lot of people seem to have remembered that incorrectly. But it would've given her exposure to muggle clothing, probably. I wouldn't be able to stand wearing robes. Give me jeans. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 15:49:29 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:49:29 -0000 Subject: old notes, frog cards & misc. connections? (a little long-sorry) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74681 I usually lurk...sometimes post...but mostly lurk...and OK, I can finally admit it - I feel I'm among friends here - 'I am an HP nerd.' I started reading HP several years ago. I bought the first 3 books for my daughter who hated reading in the hopes that the hype and peer pressure would help motivate her (it failed miserably - but she has since found HP on her own and is half way through GoF - but I digress). I LOVED the books, but found that keeping all of the characters straight was daunting. I'd read a name in book 3 that I could swear I'd heard before. So I started at book one and read it with a tablet and pen at my side. *Every* time I saw a name, I'd note it, where it appeared (book and chapter) and any significant notes. Keep in mind this was long before I came out as a true HP fan (though my husband was beginning to suspect) and found this site. I have since read the entire series many times and still find myself returning to my list (I've also put it in a word document for easier sorting) for memory refreshing, finding connections, etc. As a matter of fact, I've been using it quite a bit since I updated it with OotP info. Why am I sharing this info with you? I don't know. Maybe just because I needed to tell someone. Thanks for listening. No, really - I did have more than that to share. While going through my notes, I noticed two people with the same last name that I hadn't connected before: Davey and Gladys Gudgeon. Gladys was mentioned in CoS as a fan of Gilderoy Lockhart and Davey was introduced in PoA as having gone to school with MWPP (he was almost 'blinded by the Whomping Willow'). As Gladys was (IMO) an adult fan of Lockhart and Davey went to school with MWPP - they might well be about the same age. Is there any connection? Does it really matter? Probably not. But it also got me thinking about other names from the earlier books that we haven't heard from since and that lead me to the witches and wizards on the chocolate frog cards. Of course, Dumbledore is on the cards but so are: Agrippa, Circe, Cliodona, Morgana, Paracelsus, Ptolemy, Merlin, Hengist of Woodcroft, and Alberic Grunnion. They were notable enough to be placed on trading cards - might any of them offer more significance in the remaining books? As one might expect, the Lexicon offers historical info on them - but does anyone have any theories about them and whether they might become more significant? I am convinced that the info on Dumbledore's card will play out later (what *are* the 12 uses of dragon's blood?). The other thing that caught my eye this time through my list was the number of characters mentioned in passing. Jeez, there are lots of them! Are they just filler material or will we learn more? Mark Evans? members of Dudley's gang?, Agatha Timms?, Florence?, Blaise Zabini?, Otto Bagman?, Ali Bashir?, Owen Cauldwell?, Hetty Bayliss?, Doris Crockford?, Natalie McDonald?,...the list is crazy-long. Anyway...this post is much longer than I intended and I'm not sure if there's anything useful in it - but here it is. Regardless - I'd like to say thank you to everyone on this list (old farts who've been here since the beginning, newbies who've just discovered it's magic and everyone in between)...you're all wonderfully reassuring to a borderline OCD suffering HP fanatic! Tcy (returning to the comfort of the shadows) From cubs9911 at aol.com Fri Aug 1 13:58:11 2003 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 13:58:11 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74682 greatelderone wrote: >>Was the Ron/Fleur thing even a relationships? Besides as others noted GoF was more about Ron falling in love with Hermione and getting over the fact that he can't have the Human-Veela so I'm thinking that she was indeed talking about Ron/Hermione.<<< Me: I'm not sure why everyone seems to think Ron was in love with Hermione in GOF. It is specifically agnowledged that Ron didn't even think to ask Hermione to the Yule Ball until it was a last option. However I think that he started to have feelings for her in GOF. I also think that Hermione started to have feelings for him. She was jealous when Ron would show his attraction to Fleur and she also told Ron that next time there was a dance, he should just ask her to begin with. I think Ron and Hermione challenge each other and enjoy the bickering. I truly hope that JKR puts them together because I think in many ways we have seen the two of them flash small hints that they like each other and conversely I have not really felt that between Harry and Hermione. I think that when the story ends Harry will save the day, but Ron will get the girl! Joe (hoping that Ron and Hermione Weasly will one day live next door to Harry and Ginny Potter). From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 14:08:10 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 14:08:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: <004c01c3581b$193e9940$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74683 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > So now I find it rather disorienting that Hermione just > casually tosses off what in the wizarding world is basically a > racial insult, and nothing comes of it. Nobody speaks to her, > nobody comments on it, nobody even raises an eyebrow or > looks troubled or surprised. >>> Pippin: > Oh yes, they do. > > "He's not a horse, he's a Centaur!" said Lavender, sounding > shocked. > > It isn't the first time Hermione has come out with something > like this, either. In PoA ch. 17: > > "NO!" Hermione screamed. "Harry, don't trust him, he's been > helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too--*he's > a werewolf*!" (emphasis Rowling's) > > Try changing "werewolf" to the ethnic signifier of your choice > and see how it sounds. > > I think Rowling is trying to show us just how insidious prejudice > is. Even a well-meaning person like Hermione can fall prey to > stereotyping. Dawn: > I think this is probably the most likely explanation, with the > possible lead in to something in the forthcoming storylines, but > another thought came to me from something said in another thread. > > It was suggested that Snape was a racist because of one word > used when he was being taunted as a teenager (seen in the pensieve), > so perhaps JKR might of been dropping a hint that not everything > said by a teenage student to another is to be taken as a sign that > they are deeply tainted with racist beliefs? >>>> Actually, I think all of you are off base on this one. Hermione's comment is just a truthful one. So she doesn't like horses, so what? The girls are talking romantically of Firenze, and Hermione is stating that she doesn't find him romantically attractive because he is part horse. Clear enough? I don't like dogs as much as I like cats, does that make me predjudiced against dogs? No, I just prefer cats. Hermione is also being catty because these girls act like love sick puppies towards a part human (twisted if you ask me) and the girls are not high on her friendship list either. I think her reaction is normal and has nothing to do with being racist at all, remember she is the first to be singled out in the series as a mudblood, a ancestrial slur against her parents. In this sense she would be the last to condemn someone on their species group. She just doesn't find him attractive. 'nough said. Karen: > Isn't it possible that Hermione has a fear of horses? It is not > that odd a fear. If someone were afraid of horses, a centaur would > be pretty intimidating. Also, the Centaurs, by their own choice, > wanted to be aligned with the "beasts" not the humans, according to > Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. They have actively tried > to keep separated from human wizards and other "races". By their > own definition, they are superior to the human wizards, so racism > could be said to gallop (pardon the pun) through their herds. >>> Don't you think the werewolf reference is off base on this one? Werewolves will eat you if given the chance and should be feared. I don't like large sharks, why? Because if given the chance they will try to eat you or rather taste you to see if they want to eat you. Does this make me predjudiced against sharks? No, but I don't like them, because of their tendencies torward wanting to eat you. Now of course Lupin didn't change in front of them so he could eat them, so her fear of him being a werewolf is more the fact he is on Sirius Black's side, the werewolf reference is just to cement Harry's defence or disliking of him so he wouldn't trust him and let his guard down as they had done. "severusbook4" From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 1 16:07:46 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:07:46 -0000 Subject: Feliz Cumpleanos Harry (queries about prophecy, Trelawney) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Next, does anyone think that DD is keeping Trelawney at Hogwarts > (even when she was fired) in order to protect her from V-mort, who > might try and learn the prophecy from her? Yes, I think this is one of the reasons. The other is IMO, that Trelawney might spoke another prediction (and I think she will, because it are mostly three), and in this case it would be better to have her living at Hogwarts, were the chance is much better, that Dumbledore or one of his allies hears the prophecy. > However, I don't think > Trelawney remembers the prophecies she has made. So how could V- mort > extract them from her? Is this the same kind of magic he used to > extract stuff from Bertha Jorkins, who had forgotten about Crouch Jr. > because of the memory charm? Might be. But even if Voldemort isn't able to let Trelawney repeat the prophecy, he still could try it. And in this case, Trelawneys life were in grave danger. Hickengruendler From yswahl at stis.net Fri Aug 1 16:11:26 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:11:26 -0000 Subject: Ginny & Giant Squid SHIP is supported by canon {hehehe} In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "starry765" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "samnanya" wrote: > > > > ADMIN Proposed SHIP > > "On the other hand, just because you can't stand to read > > another word about Ginny's crush on the Giant Squid doesn't mean > > that everyone else has to feel the same way." > > If you anagram "gillyweed, giant squid & grinch" you will get "ginny weasley, quidditch girl" ......... Not only does this super secret code suggest a possible SHIP between Ginny and the Giant Squid, but it also shows that she indeed does play quidditch! > The referred-to grinch doesn't appear until book 6, but i am certain JKR won't quibble about that! Samnanya {who is already getting an air of dottiness waiting for book 6 to arrive ) > -starry765- > Um, OK. > Will Dean (Ginny's boyfriend at the end of OotP) get mad at this and go after the squid in a jealous rage? Or will The Grinch's heart grow four sizes and help Harry defeat Voldemort? And is Max, his dog, realy an Anamagus? samnanya once again, a careful reading of OOP and a simple anagram of "Dean Thomas" will reveal his secret sinister name in squiddish {which of coourse is linguistically phonetic} --- Warning ! major spoiler ahead ! ---> Dean Thomas aka "death sa{l}mon" SO it is "giant squid" vs. "death sa{l}mon" -- we can expect a truly epic battle for Ginny's affections in future books though the outcome may not be known until book 7 ..... And since you bring up the Grinch and Max, the Grinch's Dog -- do you see the allusion to Godric, Grinch's Dog !!!!!!!!!! what does that sound like to you ??? Note that Godric indeed is hidden in "grinch dog" - so yes, the dog is indeed an animagus. and NOT ONLY THAT ..... he WILL help Harry defeat the Dark Lord !! Harry just has to create a polyjuice potion using "the Hair of Grinch's Dog" to fulfill the prophecy that he is indeed the Heir to Gryffindog {uh ... i mean Griffendor}! samnanya {who will be sleeping with the fishes if this thread continues for much longer} From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 16:15:59 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:15:59 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > I'm afraid you're wrong. He > had to do without Hermione in PoA, when the boys threw a major > tantrum at her over the Firebolt Affair, and sulked at her for weeks > on. And even when Hagrid told them how miserable Hermione was and how > she was crying and everything, neither of them relented. They were > doing quite fine without her, and they didn't care about hurting her > feelings. GEO: If anything Ron was the one trying to hurt her while Harry did absolutely nothing, but stopped talking to her. However you are also missing the fact that Harry was the first to try and reconcile with Hermione in the Patronus chapter immediately after he got the firebolt back and then later after the Gryffindor victory while Ron was still acting like an idiot over the Firebolt, which wasn't even his to begin with, and Scabbers. > But the most telling thing for me is precisely that time when he had > to do without Ron. If he was interested in Hermione, he would have > been happy to spend some more time with her. But he wasn't ! In fact, > he was bored with only her around. > GEO: Actually that isn't very telling since he had the whole first task with the dragons staring in front of him so I don't think he could have possibly lightened up with his possible death approaching. > So : he doesn't suffer when he sees less of her, and he's not happy > when he sees more of her. I can hardly see how this can be twisted > into : he's romantically interested in her. GEO: I seriously disagree with your conclusion and premeise. Many of the times he has spent alone with her are during times of danger to him or to the both of them so they can't exactly have fun and yet when they have a fight over something he tries reconciliation immediately after the issue of the fight is resolved. > > Of course she is. Harry is her friend, Viktor is only her date. I > think we all agree that she's not in love with Viktor. Which means > that, though it's probably nice to spend some time with him, still it > doesn't compare to spending time with her best friends, which happen > to be Harry and Ron. > GEO:We don't know that since everything is told from Harry's pov so we don't know if Hermione actually likes Viktor or not, but the fact that Viktor is jealous of Harry just indicates that there is possibly something between Viktor and Hermione. Besides the fact that they continue their relationship through long distance correspondence indicates that he was more than a date to the yule ball. > Moreover, you're interpreting the books here : nowhere does it say > that Harry is *all* she talks about. GEO: No, but she talks about him often enough that it makes Viktor Krum suspicious of something and the fact that he didn't even bring up the Skeeter article indicates imo that he noticed the whole thing without having the benefit of reading it. > I'll bet she only mentions him > once in a while, which she is bound to do, considering that they > spent most of their life at Hogwarts together. So how could she avoid > the "Oh, one day, Harry did something so funny, let me tell you", > or "Harry says that", or "With Harry once we did this", etc... And > you know what ? GEO: They are your own guesses and assumptions. Mind providing quotes or evidence to back them up. >I'll bet she mentions Ron just as often. But because > Ron is neither a celebrity nor one of his opponent in the Tournament, > Viktor doesn't care about him. GEO: Again we don't know that. The whole reason that Krum is suspicious is NOT because Harry is a Triwizard contestant and who just happens to be Hermione's friend, but the fact that Hermione talks about him a lot especially when he didn't even ask her to volunteer information. > Yep, and both Viktor and Cho are being silly :-) GEO :Doubt it considering Viktor himself is eighteen and more mature in the emotional and love angle. > Harry can't figure > out why on Earth should Cho be jealous of Hermione, and I guess > Hermione can't either figure why Viktor is jealous of Harry. For one > simple reason : they are not in love with one another. GEO: And yet they talk constantly about each other and in Harry's case he lavishes praise upon Hermione and instead of taking his girlfriend's side he takes Hermione's in regards to hexing of the parchment. If anything else I think they do have unexplored feelings for one another. > And when she tells him > that next time he should invite her first, what she's saying is : it > hurts me that you deny my femininity, please open your eyes and start > acting like you're a boy and I'm a girl. GEO: No I think it's not that he never acknowledged her as a girl, but that he only invited her after all his other choices turned him down. That and when he calls her a traitor at the Yule Ball which is not exactly the most mature thing. > She needs to *please*, she > needs to know she can seduce a guy. She's a teenage girl. > GEO: Nice interpretation. Now you are making Hermione sound like gutter trash and the "scarlet woman" from Skeeter's article. If anything she is far from a typical teenage girl if Lavender and Parvati are the ones we use in comparison. > ps : the fact that she's granting so much importance to Ron's > opinion, though, seems to me to indicate that he's got a special > place in her heart. GEO: Just your interpretation. >She doesn't care anywhere as much that Harry > doesn't see as a girl... GEO: Really? And yet she wanted to know if he found her ugly or not. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 15:23:30 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:23:30 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic)VERY LONGISH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74688 Patricia wrote: > I think the reason Petunia hates magic is that she has been jealous of Lily's beauty and natural ability with magic and Lily found her soul mate in James. Petunia has been placed second in her parents eyes; when Lily got her letter to Hogwarts Petunia said in the first book that their parents were proud the day Lily received it. > > > bibphile: > I do think Petunia was always jealous of Lily. I think their parents favored Lily. Of course, I don't think it was anything approaching the same league as how Petunia treats Dudley and Harry, but I do think it was considerable. Lily was prettier, more easy going, and maybe more talented and she was her parents favorite. The problem was already there. The Hogwarts letter just gave Petunia something specific to hate about Lily. I admit, I'm basing this on impressions, but we only have about three lines in canon to build on. > > I disagree about Petunia being jealous over Lily finding James. I > fully believe the Vernon and Petunia are very much in love. Vernon > put himself between her and Mr. Weasley (who he honestly believed to be dangerous). >>> Don't you think she is just jealous of Lily? I don't believe their parents treated them any differently, Petunia was jealous because her parents were so proud of Lily when she was excepted to Hogwart's and Petunia had nothing to offer her parents to make them that proud of her. So like the spoiled brat she still acts like, she began to hate her sister because Lily was something different and very special (weren't their parents muggles like Hermione's), and that made Petunia feel very ordinary and plain. But in the end when it was tested, Petunia did still loved her sister because she gave DD her word on taking care of Harry after her sister was killed by Lord Moldywart. Petunia didn't like her sister but she still loved her because she was family. Now I think the way she treats Harry is her way of "getting back" at her sister. Dudley acts the way he does because of the way he is treated by his parents, and Harry is slightly meek (at first) because of the way he is treated by his aunt and uncle. I believe in order for Petunia to behave this way, her parents must have completely spoiled her after it came to light that Lily was a witch, and they didn't want Petunia to feel left out or not special. In my family all three of us were praised for our strengths, my sister being the athlete, myself being the smart one, and my little brother being the emotional artistic one. I don't think Petunia had a strength to be praised, but her parents did any way and that false praise did more damage than good. IMOO. "severusbook4" From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 15:53:57 2003 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:53:57 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Rude Comment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74690 Could her comment have more to do with her dislike of things proclaiming to see the future? It seems that JKR is going a little out of her way to show Hermione as having no respect for Divination in general. Could it be her insistence to find everything in a book? Does she believe that the future can not be prophesized? Did she hear a prophesy that she does not want to believe or is afraid to believe? Does her muggle background make her believe that you must find answers not from fortune tellers? Why is she so accepting of other forms of magic, if fact every other form accept this one? Can you link this to her insistence that everything Luna talks about is not FACT but FABLE? She really has no patience for that either, does she? I honestly think that there is less to the racism theory and more to the idea that she has no patience for this type of magic. It could be read, I guess that she has no patience for Lavender and Parvati but I always read it this way. I would also like to know ......why? Trish. Who is trying to get the hang of this whilst the two little ones pull on her shirt. From kewiromeo at aol.com Fri Aug 1 16:21:16 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:21:16 EDT Subject: Sirius' House Message-ID: <102.33064a71.2c5bed7c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74691 Look at Harry and Draco. Harry knows almost nothing about Draco. I would assume Draco knows more about Harry from his father and other people, and he grew up in the WW. Harry's best friend was Ron. I wonder how much Ron and Harry would have stayed best friends if Harry was put in Slytherin. Look at Sirius and James in the pensive. They were happy and looked like great friends. First of all, Sirius' hated his family from the age of 15 or so meaning that there was some reason that he and his family had diagreed on something. I would probably have to say that Sirius was in Gryffindor. People can say that Lupin was in Ravenclaw, James in Gryffindor, Peter in Hufflepuff, and Syrius was in Slytherin, which wouldn't be such a bad story to follow. It's just like the story between the four founders of the houses. And I'm sure that would make a much better story than Peter, James, Lupin, and Syrius in Gryffindor. Also, Syrius would have dormed with Snape, and I don't think such animosity would have developed between them if they were living in the same room. I assume that if you are the head of a house, you were in that house when you attended the school. Who knows, maybe Snape was in Ravenclaw. We don't know everything. I like Snape, and I can't really blame him for being the way he is. He's a teacher. He hasn't had a happy life, and like Dumbledore said, that there are some cuts that are too deep to heal. I'm sure in our lives there is something that has been done to us that we don't want to forgive people for. And Harry is a living reminder of the pain he once felt. We have never seen Snape near one of the demetors, maybe we have, but it hasn't been mentioned exclusively. Maybe he would go into fits just like Harry. Harry has memories of Dudley and his parents death, but Snape has these sad sad things deep down inside that you can't blame him for. Slytherin is a house for ambitious people, not evil ones. So Snape's ambition is getting the DADA job? Tzvi Lieb [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 16:01:34 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:01:34 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: "I `d like to add to her observation that Sirius is not only someone Harry can easily identify with. He `s also someone Harry was waiting for more or less consciously.If you take the second chapter of Philosopher's Stone, you can read at the end: "When he had been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some unknown relation coming to take him away, but it had never happened; the Dursleys were his only family. Harry likes Sirius because he comes just in time to be an opposite of what a 13 years old boy dislikes consciously or not in father figure: authority (Vernon Dursley, Snape), experience (Lupin, Dumbledore),and weakness (Hagrid). " Ariadne: Oooooh...this is very deep and,IMO, a very accurate description of the relationship between Harry and Sirius, including the instant attachment. In a different thread, I talked about Harry being attracted to the "hero/savior" side of Sirius, which is a part of Harry's psychological make-up as well. Of course both of them exhibit this archetype b/c they both deeply desired "saving" as they were growing up, and both learned (are learning) it's an internal, not external, process. That's why Dumbledoe, Hagrid, the Weasley's etc. aren't as attractive as Sirius at that moment--Harry sees before him, right or no, the man who can make up for all he's missed out on. Ariadne From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 16:22:37 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:22:37 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > > About the Veela effect : it's true that Ron is attracted to her only > because of the hormonal power of the Veelas. GEO:It's not hormonal powers. If anything the Veela powers are something akin to the dark magics of the imperius curse and the fact that the Bulgarians are associated with a school teaching the dark arts and that the Veela can throw fire just points to them being closely aligned with the dark arts. Furthermore Harry shakes off the effect that the Veela have on him like how he shakes off the imperius curse and the fact that people don't have to be under their spell if they don't look at them or hear the music points to it all being magic. >But can you tell me why > Harry is attracted to Cho, if not for a purely hormonal reason ? GEO: I agree. Harry's attraction to Cho is nothing less than hormones. If it was magic then he could have shook it off. > So if the Ron/Fleur relationship cannot be the one > JKR was talking about in the interview, then neither can the > Harry/Cho one be... GEO: Except the Ron/Fleur thing is more like magical mind control than a crush. The only reason people want her is precisely because she is part veela. > But we can deduce from her actions that she doesn't seem > horribly taken with him. GEO: Yet she still maintains a letter correspondence with Viktor. If anything I think she is quite taken with him. > Not enough anyway to accept his invitation > to spend the summer with him. Now, my teenage years are not that far > away that I don't remember how it felt to be in love with/have a > crush on someone : I would have gladly given up *anything* to follow > a boy I was interested in. GEO: If anything Hermione is far from a normal and average girl in either the muggle or wizard worlds so I don't think the same standards put upon other girls apply to her because of that simple fact. From dcyasser at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 16:14:47 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:14:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's future in Quidditch (was Ginny's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74694 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" > > I suspect, though, that Harry won't be > > all that eager to play again. But mostly, I think Rowling has > > done about all she can do with quidditch without getting > > repetitious. So perhaps Harry will step aside and let the next > > generation have their turn. Picking up on this late, but had Yahoomort problems earlier so I'll see if I can remember my thoughts... I greatly fear that Harry will not play Quidditch 6th year, and Ginny has been introduced as seeker to take the burden from him. Harry will have far too much going on in terms of dealing with the prophecy, the war, and his newfound role to dedicate time to Quidditch, even if he wanted to play. Once he was banned in OoP, his time was quickly filled with more important issues (the DA, Hagrid returns, occlumency starts) leading to him "putting away childish things" as the quote goes, even if not by his own choice. That he has lost at least some of his enthusiasm for Quidditch is evident in his reaction to Gryffindor winning the house cup, which was pleased but not excited. (Harry? Not excited by Quidditch and winning the house cup?) Yes Harry and Hermione "beamed up" at Ron as he passed on the shoulders of the Gryffindors, but they didn't join him, and as soon as the crowd was out of sight their smiles faded and they turned back to thinking about Grawp. The narration that follows, from Harry's POV, tells us he is waiting for Ron to stop talking about Quidditch so they can move on to what Harry considers more important. "All he wanted to do was talk over the match and Harry and Hermione foudn it very difficult to find an opening in which to mention Grawp...neither was keen to bring Ron back to reality in quite such a brutal fashion." p.703 US hardcover Time was when all Harry would want to do is go over the match as well, in great detail, but now he is pressed by other issues. The most we hear Harry say is "I'm just glad we won" and that was to cover for his smirking at Ron reminding him of James. I do feel sorry for Ron, who has finally achieved the level of Quidditch hero, but now Harry has advanced beyond that. Quite a difference from PoA where "Harry's euphoria at finally winning the Quidditch Cup lasted at least a week." (p.314 US hardcover) Ah, I love when Harry plays Quidditch. Maybe after, if he survives... cheers dc From tallulah_sam at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 12:24:22 2003 From: tallulah_sam at hotmail.com (tallulah_sam) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 12:24:22 -0000 Subject: Marauders Map Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74695 Hello! My first post so very sorry if this has been mentioned and sorted out before but here goes anyway! In PoA why didn't Harry or Fred and George ever see Peter Pettigrew on the marauders map? Lupin saw both Peter and Sirius so we know it shows animagi.... any ideas or theories?? Tallulah From alexpie at aol.com Fri Aug 1 16:27:15 2003 From: alexpie at aol.com (alexpie at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 12:27:15 EDT Subject: Harry's a student, after all (was Snape to DADA, etc.) Message-ID: <139.234f7ef7.2c5beee3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74696 Richelle wrote: > A) Dumbledore tells Harry almost everything he asks (Longbottoms, etc.), > yet refuses to tell him why he trusts Snape. Now, me: Perhaps the reason for this is that it is a matter between headmaster and professor and is simply none of Harry's business. Boy That Lived or no, he is not entitled to know about every relationship and its underpinnings (for details, see Phineas Nigellus). Furthermore, if Snape's reasons for leaving LV and the DEs (good band name, that) is as emotionally complex as some have posited (and I have no doubt that it is), a fifteen-year-old boy would no doubt have great difficulty understanding it, if he even bothered to make the effort, which Harry is not apt to do. Ba, moving slowly to Slytherclaw [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rlai1977 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 16:24:02 2003 From: rlai1977 at yahoo.com (RP) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:24:02 -0000 Subject: Draco and Sirius(Was: A Good Slytherin? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74697 Karen wrote: > There are so many parallel characters that we see in these > stories that it would make sense for Draco to be paralleled with > either James, who changed his bully ways by his seventh year, or > with Sirius, who "rose above" his family's prejudices. Many seem to parallel Draco with Sirius, concluding that Draco either would break away from his evil parents like Sirius did, or he won't because he is not a "good" person like Sirius who made the "right" choice. I strongly disagree. Both Draco and Sirius are rather amoral, they are kind only to those who they love or identify with, and can be cruel and without empathy toward everyone else. As evident in Sirius treatment of Snape (who he tried to badly hurt through wolf Lupin), Kreacher, and his own family. And Draco I'm sure I don't need to list examples of his cruelty/indifference toward the vast majority of WW population who he just doesn't care. Sirius apparently, has always hated his family, period. It's not that he reached a certain age, suddenly woke up to the fact that his family was evil and decided he should make the moral choice by severing all ties with them, it was plainly like he said-- he ran off when he (finally) got the first chance because he just could not stand the lot of them. If he had any love for his parents and brother, and if their attitude towards muggle-borns was indeed the main reason he could not stand them, then he would have tried to persuade them to change their view. And if he could not make them change their prejudice, he would oppose this particular stance of theirs but still cares for them. But I didn't pick up any sign that Sirius had much feelings about his family, other than loathing. I am not saying Sirius was "wrong" in that sense, just saying he is thus very very different from Draco who apparently cares deeply about his parents. There is NO reason for Draco to break away from his family the way Sirius did. Even if Draco does one day realize how wrong his parents are (which I doubt), he still would not be the second Sirius. Who I think Sirius paralleled was Barty Jr, who hated his father thoroughly too -- the big difference was that Sirius left his family to join the "light" side, while Barty Jr rebelled against his dad by join rank with Voldermort. And who would Draco parallel if he ever ditches his own family for his own good? Percy Weasley! "RP" From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 1 16:28:48 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:28:48 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "iris_ft" wrote: > >> I agree with Annemehr about Harry's capacity to empathise (one of > his main qualities, one of his strongest powers IMO). > I `d like to add to her observation that Sirius is not only someone > Harry can easily identify with. He `s also someone Harry was waiting > for more or less consciously. > If you take the second chapter of Philosopher's Stone, you can read > at the end: > "When he had been younger, Harry had dreamed and dreamed of some > unknown relation coming to take him away, but it had never happened; > the Dursleys were his only family." > (UK paperback, p 27) > A psychologist would tell you that it's an example of what is > called "the family novel". Young children tend more or less > consciously to imagine that Mum and Dad are not their true parents. > It's a defence against all the prohibitions parents impose in order > to educate their children. It's a normal phase in learning. It helps > to accept the rules of social life. Children first tend to reject > their parents when they impose them rules they don't like ("I don't > love you anymore, you are not my mum anymore!"). So they invent a > story about "my parents are not my true parents. My true parents > wouldn't impose me those stupid rules. They love me but they are not > here, those two are only my guardians. And one day my true parents > will come and take me with them, and they'll let me do all that I > want, they will give me all that I want". > You can find this scheme in fairytales (Cinderella is a good > example), and maybe you remember your own fantasies of the same > kind. It's a normal phase of the growing up process. Then, as > children grow up, they accept the rules and the fact they have no > other parents. > JKR plays with that in her books, because she knows very well what > childhood is, what a human being is, and how fairytales and legends > work. > And she knows as well that "the family novel" is also tied with > Oedipus complex. This complex turns back when the child is in early > teens. Exactly like Harry in Prisoner of Azkaban. Sirius comes and > he automatically plays the part he has to play, because 13 years old > Harry needs it. He is "the unknown relation coming to take him away" > Harry was waiting for, consciously or not. The whole novel could be > read from a psychoanalytic point of view. It's a story about how a > boy starts beginning a man, about how he deals with the father > figure and assimilates this father figure's legacy. Harry likes > Sirius because he comes just in time to be an opposite of what a 13 > years old boy dislikes consciously or not in father figure: > authority (Vernon Dursley, Snape), experience (Lupin, Dumbledore), > and weakness (Hagrid). Thanks to him, because of him, Harry manages > to create a Patronus, a stag (his father's Animagus form). The stag > bows to him at the end of the story: Harry Potter has gained the > right to succeed James Potter (That's the whole question of Oedipus > complex). How couldn't Harry be grateful towards Sirius, nor love > him for helping him to open his own wings? What can appear as > incoherence is in reality a very relevant picture of a teenage > boy. > There's > no incoherence in JKR's books. We only need keys to open doors, and > pieces to complete the puzzle. > > Amicalement, > > Iris Great post! Also - Sirius has been in prison for something he didn't do. It seems possible that Harry also sees himself (Harry that is) ashaving been imprisoned for something he didn't do. In short, they are both victims of injustice and have suffered in similar ways for years. June From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 00:06:47 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 00:06:47 -0000 Subject: Forever Wicked? In-Reply-To: <410-220037431234512276@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74699 Wendy St John wrote: > I think it's Blaise Zabini, who got sorted into Slytherin in Harry's first year. This would prove my theory that Blaise is, indeed, a boy (Blaise is typically a boy's name, but since the Zabini child's gender was never specifically stated, a lot of people have questioned this). I also think he's going to turn out to be the "good Slytherin," and I have canon to prove it! Well, okay, maybe "canon" is a bit of an overstatement. It's more of a squirt gun, but anyhow . . . >>> Ariadne: Thanks for repeating your theory, guess I missed this thread first time around... for anyone interested, the thread was on Sat. 7/26 and I found it by searching the archives for Blaise Zabini. Very clever theories! Ariadne From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 16:29:59 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:29:59 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > This IMO is because she writes > Hermoine as herself, and thinks of Harry as a son. GEO: Then why did the doctor that she just married bear a striking resemblance to Harry of all people. And furthermore Rowling has never said that she regarded Harry as a son. All she has said on the issue is that Harry is a hero that she would admire. From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 11:41:35 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 11:41:35 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74701 I seriously doubt that Harry and Hermione will become romantically linked. There are a number of reasons. 1. Ron's jealousy over Hermione's relationship with Krumm. He may not realize it yet, but he is quite interested in Hermione. As she says of him in OoP, he is a bit dense when it comes to real emotion. 2. Hermione only mentions or writes to Krum in the presence of Ron. Clearly, she is trying to make him jealous. 3. Hermione is clearly trying to help Harry in his relationship with Cho. I don't know about anyone else, but even at my advanced age, if I were interested in someone, I would definitely not encourage a relationship with someone else. 4. Rowling herself said there are clues in her books to many things. Anyone who has read OoP will see at the end of the story how Ron wants Harry to get together with Ginny. As to that picture in Newsweek...anyone who has read PoA will realize that is when the dementors surround Harry and Hermione. No romantic moment there. Deemarie From readzalot at shaw.ca Fri Aug 1 16:28:05 2003 From: readzalot at shaw.ca (Deb) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:28:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74702 Snape intentionally made Harry get a zero in Potions, when Harry obviously made it correctly. I think it was a good lesson for Harry to learn - even if you do it right, do not leave your work unattended in the face of those who you do not trust. I bet Harry will never just drop off his potion and turn away again. I bet Harry will never make a potion outside of class and leave it unattended. But, we don't know (yet) whether Snape enjoyed doing it because he is mean, or whether he did it because of "tough love" or whether the truth is a bit of both. Deb S, aka readzalot, Canada From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 16:38:52 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:38:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > Yes she kissed Harry twice but she was furious after she kissed > Ron GEO: It didn't say anything of the sort. The book just says that Hermione was furious. It never said that she was actually furious that Fleur kissed Ron or because Fleur kissed Harry. > > And if you bothered reading that whole chapter in GoF in the > great hall you'll realize that Hermione was annoyed that Fleur > laughed at Dumbledore's speech, but even more annoyed that > Ron thought she was so pretty - she makes a comment bout > seeing no one else "gaping at her like an idiot". > GEO: Possibly because Ron was falling under the thrall of a girl who was just being disrespectful to the headmaster of hogwarts which most students have a healthy respect for. IMO it was more like contempt than jealousy. > That's not intelligence she's insulting. GEO: Yes it is. She is saying how long it took for him to figure out that she was actually a girl when it was pretty obvious. > maybe so, but why not get just as mad at Neville. GEO: Why Neville? Neville actually didn't ask her as a last resort and actually knew that she was a girl. > George and Fred are too into their own world to notice > something like that. GEO: Those two also happen to be able to apparate and in possession of extendable ears and are also older and perceptive of this kind of stuff. If they didn't notice sparks between the two then I really doubt there are any. > I don't see hermione as the "star-f*cker" type. GEO: It has nothing to do with fame, but everything to do with the fact that the people she like or fall in love with are either people that claim to be those that fight against the dark forces or dark and brooding quidditch seekers which are all qualities that Harry possesses. > > harry and hermione are definately close friends, and that makes > it hard for potential love interests to find an in. Cho may be > jealous of Hermione, and Krum jealous of Harry, but Hermione > is never jealous of Cho, nor harry of "Vicky". GEO: She frowned when Harry told them that Cho kissed her. If anything their close friendship imo could be the basis of a relationship later in life. Furthermore any future permanent love interest that Harry has would have to replace Hermione's functions as advisor in all matters, his right arm and his confidente or else the relationship wouldn't work since no girl would actually like it if their boyfriend goes rushing off to his best female friend instead of them to ask for advice or for help. If anything the Cho relationship proved that. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 15:55:29 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 15:55:29 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment (slang and stuff)(longish again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74704 Lady Macbeth: > > I think this is VERY likely the large amount of it. Children (and teens) use words EVERY DAY that they don't truly grasp the meaning of, yet are potentially derogatory. feetmadeofclay: > It is not "potentially derogatory" it is derogatory. Plain and > simple. Hermione's a smart girl. Far smarter and more proactive than I was. She knows better. She can do better. I can't excuse any such language except on the basis of ignorance because she isn't ignorant. Perhaps if it was sweetfaced Neville? Lady Macbeth: > > racism is a learned behavior, not an instinctual one. IMOO I think that this is just a remark, not racist in the least. She just doen't like horses. I don't own a dog, but I own a cat, does this make me racist? No, I just like cats more than dogs. The context that she used is that she didn't find Firenze to be dreamy in a romantic way as she found her last DADA teacher (I forgot his name), the fact the other girls find this centaur dreamy is kind of disturbing. Also when she refers to Lupin as a werewolf, and uses it derogatorily, does have its justifications, werewolves are to be feared and when she finds it out, she also finds out Lupin is in league with a known mass killer, the person to be believed is after Harry. She uses the term werewolf to warn Harry not to let his guard down, "Lupin is a werewolf, keep your defences up, if he changes he will eat you" kind of thing. It would worry me if I just found out a teacher I liked was a werewolf and was on the side of a person that wanted to kill me. This whole thing of Hermione being racist or rather a speciesist is unfounded, she is the first to be singled out as a mudblood and she is rather hurt by it, this would make her the last to use someone's race or species as an insult against them. Harry is a half blood which I don't understand since both of his parents are magical. Yes his mother is a half muggle(or is she like Hermione{another reason the two will get together}) but she still was born magical. And no one singles him out as a mudblood, do they? "severusbook4" From robinryder934 at netscape.net Fri Aug 1 16:39:15 2003 From: robinryder934 at netscape.net (Pruneau) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 16:39:15 -0000 Subject: Ginny & Giant Squid SHIP is supported by canon {hehehe} In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74705 samnanya wrote: If you anagram "gillyweed, giant squid & grinch" you > will get "ginny weasley, quidditch girl" ......... I hate to spoil the fun, but if you DO anagram "gillyweed, giant squid & grinch", you'll get "ginny weasleG, quidditch girl", not ginny weasleY. Pruneau From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 16:46:06 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:46:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment References: Message-ID: <00cb01c3584c$67fe8c80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74706 From: severusbook4 << another thought came to me from something said in another thread. > > It was suggested that Snape was a racist because of one word > used when he was being taunted as a teenager (seen in the pensieve), > so perhaps JKR might of been dropping a hint that not everything > said by a teenage student to another is to be taken as a sign that > they are deeply tainted with racist beliefs? >>>> Actually, I think all of you are off base on this one. I think her reaction is normal and has nothing to do with being racist at all, remember she is the first to be singled out in the series as a mudblood, a ancestrial slur against her parents. In this sense she would be the last to condemn someone on their species group. She just doesn't find him attractive. 'nough said. ----- In the first place, my reply to this post was to the effect that a few thoughtless words does *not* make you an out and out racist, in the second place, HG doesn't simply state she finds Firenze unattractive or uninteresting, she actually labels him as an animal. I really don't think there is any real intent to insult behind it, but one of the basic ideas of a racially biased philosophy is that 'the(insert racial, religious or ethnic group here) are not quiet as well evolved and/or socially developed than us'. I do think that this scene may have been meant to help illustrate some of the points raised in other parts of the book, like how did Umbridge manage to get so many of her petty, restrictive and discriminatory laws passed before she came to Hogwarts? Perhaps the biggest fault with it is that it was too subtle. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:05:09 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:05:09 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: >>>GEO:It's not hormonal powers. If anything the Veela powers are something akin to the dark magics of the imperius curse and the fact that the Bulgarians are associated with a school teaching the dark arts and that the Veela can throw fire just points to them being closely aligned with the dark arts.<<< Me: Do you have quotes from JKR or canon-based info on Veela's as a race to back this up? It seems to me that you're making some fairly bold assumptions here. I suspect that if Veela's were as scary and dangerous as you're making them sound, the Dolores Umbridges of the WW would have passed all sorts of anti-Veela legislation that would at the very least have kept them away from the World Quidditch Cup. >>>GEO: Except the Ron/Fleur thing is more like magical mind control than a crush. The only reason people want her is precisely because she is part veela.<<< Me: Again, care to give some canon on this? She may be part Veela, but she's also described as being quite pretty. And I'm not positive about this, but I think that may be something guys look for in girls they want to date/snog/whatever. Ron asking her to the Yule Ball may have been partially incited by the "Veela-ness," but I can think of a specific incident where he in GoF where he showed attraction to her that didn't have that 'hypnotized, deer-in-the-headlights' quality: After the second task, when she kissed him for helping to save her sister. Also, out of curiosity, do you think Bill Weasley is only dating her because of the Veela thing? >>>GEO: Yet she still maintains a letter correspondence with Viktor. If anything I think she is quite taken with him.<<< Me: Which you're more than welcome to do. I happen to think that while *he's* very taken with *her*, she views him more as a friend and she seems to be keeping him at arm's length at that. Also, as someone else pointed out, she's writing to him in full view of Harry and Ron. If it was a love letter, if it was personal, I think she'd write it in private. >>>GEO: If anything Hermione is far from a normal and average girl in either the muggle or wizard worlds so I don't think the same standards put upon other girls apply to her because of that simple fact.<<< Me: I don't think Hermione is "far from normal." She's smart and studious with a tendency toward bossiness. Damn if she doesn't sound like me and most of my friends when we were her age. As far as romance is concerned, while I don't think she'd ever (openly) act giggly or swoony over Krum, I do think that if she was truly interested in him, she'd have taken him up on his offer to visit him over the summer. Instead, oddly, she chose to spend that time helping the Weasley's clean Sirius's house. Yeah, that compares to several weeks in a foreign country on the arm of a pro-Quidditch player. CM From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:04:49 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:04:49 -0000 Subject: Elixir of Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > > Another thing I thought of just now (4 am, so dont expect much) - > Flamel is in fact a muggle. Maybe Voldemort has no real way of > getting control over him. He is also immortal anyway, so Voldemort > has nothing to offer him. (And can't kill him either.) Maybe Voldemort > is just more at home in the wizarding world. > > Olaf, glad and big Or Voldemort had no way to get to him because Flamel knows that many people, not just evil wizards, will want what he has (a means to achieve immortality and great wealth). Maybe he and his wife are constantly in hiding, having all sorts of protections against attempts to steal the stone or the elixir. If I were Flamel, I'd do everything in my power to make sure that the stone was well protected. Maybe they moved it to Gringott's after Quirrel/Voldemort tried to get at it. Since Gringott's has never been successfully broken into, it would be an obvious solution until they could get the stone to Dumbledore. KathyK (who doesn't think she makes sense even at 1 pm) From jkscherme at adelphia.net Fri Aug 1 17:06:24 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:06:24 -0000 Subject: Why Potter house was destroyed 15 years ago In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" wrote: > As previously posted, I have been converted to the theory that James > Potter and Lupin had some sort of switching spell thing happening the > night the Potter's died. The more I gave it some thought, it has > helped explain some things never answered from that fateful evening. > > What if, not intentionally, but just by chance, Potter and Lupin were > practicing Switching Spells. Just as they had helped each other > learn to be Animagi, perhaps they regularly helped each other with > NEWT level magic and beyond. For some reason they chose to work on > Switching spells that evening and switched. > > Before anything could be done about it, Peter and Voldemort were upon > them and all heck broke loose. Lupin (as James) was killed and James > (as Lupin) was incapacitated, restrained, stunned, whatever. Lily > was killed, then AK rebounded from Harry and Voldemort was > disembodied. > > At this point Pettigrew transformed and ran off. The house was still > in order (because AK is precise and does no collateral damage). > Lupin comes to and finds baby Harry. Not knowing what has become of > V. and Peter he immediately owls Dumbledore (or other order member) > and then waits for assistance. But, oh no! The full moon shines > through the windows, and he starts to transform. Since he is James > he does not know how to handle it, he cannot control himself. He > drops Harry and becomes wild/violent. He literally destroys the > houseduring his transformation, then runs off knowing he may harm > Harry. > > Knowing he would be a threat to baby Harry, he waited to return until > daylight, along with Dumbledore, Hagrid, etc. Not knowing what > exactly has happened to V. and knowing that angry death eaters may be > looking for him, it is decided that he must go into hiding. Harry > because of his mother's protection and "old magic" must go to "her" > family. > > This could explain the destroyed house and also the delay of several > hours before getting Harry to the Dursleys. > > Just my thoughts-those of you who regularly ridicule and or hate > the "Switch" theory-please be kind and gentle while you crush me! > > Atropos Gryffin Good heavens! No! I, for one, never ridicule or hate theories (I am however, thoroughly frustrated by some of them, though). Very interesting! Frankly, I'm new to the "canon" approach and haven't done as much homework as most on this board, however, of all of the theories that are tossed around in here, this one seems quite plausible. I've always had a sneaky suspicion that one or both of Harry's parents weren't really dead. Your scenario is one that makes this entirely possible. The scene in the graveyard(Book 4) where Harry's parents come out of LV's wand was either mistakenly written or another clue left by JKR. Harry's mother came out of the wand before his father, when the order was to have been most recent to last killed. Exactly how this fits in I can't say, but if it wasn't a mistake by JKR, I believe it does fit in with your theory, somehow. I'm not thoroughly versed in Switching Spells, can they be reversed when the other person is dead? I can see the value in not switching while LV is around, but if he's defeated (and Harry's still alive, which I firmly believe will happen), could the spell be reversed by someone else...say...Dumbledore??? Thanks for posing such an interesting thought. madeyesgal From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 1 03:46:26 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 23:46:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: In Defense of Harry (was OotP: One More Time) References: Message-ID: <3F29E292.5060103@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74710 Susan Smith wrote: > > him. But, in SS, although H. solved the logic problem, Harry took > lead and instructed her to go back while he went on. Hermione also figured out the devil's snare first, and quickly enough to escape it. It is also clear that if there had been enough potion for both of them to go forward past the logic problem, they both would have. > Harry overcame > Q. and V. on his own. We don't know that; we don't know what Dumbeldore did when he arrived. We do know that Dumbledore said that Harry nearly died. It is possible that he would have had Dumbledore not arrived and attacked Quirrell (if that is what he did). > In COS, H. took almost as long as the boys to > figure out the Basilisk The boys didn't figure it out; Hermione alone did. The boys did figure out where the entrance to the chamber was. > caught in the cave in) to save Ginny and defeat Tom. In POA, Harry > learned skills way beyond the OWL level, not Hermione and developed > his Patronus and held off 100 Dementors on his own. Granted > Hermione's time turner came in handy, but Harry ruled. Harry only drove off the dementors the second time around; had it not been for Hermione's time turner, they both were goners. > Next, in GOF, > Hermione helped Harry train, he had help from Dobby and Crouch/Moody, > etc. But, in the end, it was Harry who battled and came away > triumphant. Too, this is truly the point where we see Harry's > mastery of DADA rapidly out pace Hermione. He is formidable, and his > practical experience awesome. Not really. He only survived the encounter with Voldemort because of the business with the wands; his skills, or lack of them, had nothing to with that. > Hermione could never accumulate enough practical experience to come > within a Quidditch stadium's length of Harry-AND she knows it. Which > is why, being the brilliant girl she is-she decides to form DA and > recruit Harry as the leader. Nonsense. What Hermione knows is that Harry does have more experience. There is not the slightest reason to think that if Hermione had had the same experience she could not equal or exceed him. > Keep in mind, in the "real" world > (MoM), Hermione falls quickly (probably lack of experience)She could By that logic, Hermione was far better than Sirius, because she was merely wounded while he was killed. Being hurt in combat is as much a matter of luck as anything else; it does not indicate a lack of skill or nerve. Or would you take back all the posthumous Medals of Honor and VCs that have ever been awarded? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 1 17:06:36 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:06:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: <00cb01c3584c$67fe8c80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: >> I do think that this scene may have been meant to help illustrate some of the points raised in other parts of the book, like how did Umbridge manage to get so many of her petty, restrictive and discriminatory laws passed before she came to Hogwarts? Perhaps the biggest fault with it is that it was too subtle. > I would like to believe that this is the case, but I don't. Rowling is not a subtle writer. When she wants us to get a point, she tells it to us, often over and over. When Draco called Hermione a mudblood, there was immediate outrage, a brawl, and the discussion of the insult went on into the next scene. When Snape called Lily the same, he was immediately shouted down, insulted in turn by Lily, and then handed a further beating by James. If Rowling were trying to say something negative about Hermione's character, someone would have reacted to her comments about Firenze. Nobody did. I think that we are giving Rowling more credit for deep thinking than she deserves. It looks to me like she thought of Hermione's remarks as a "zinger", putting the other girls in their place, and that was it. It obviously worked for some, but to me, the putdown is strangely out of place, given Hermione's background and the themes in the books up until now. Wanda From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 17:20:23 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:20:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment (slang and stuff)(longish again) References: Message-ID: <00fa01c35851$32347600$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74712 From: severusbook4 <<This whole thing of Hermione being racist or rather a speciesist is unfounded, she is the first to be singled out as a mudblood and she is rather hurt by it, this would make her the last to use someone's race or species as an insult against them. >> ---- The point of discussing this was, IMO, because Hermione *did* make comments that could be read as predudiced, so there is a foundation for the thread. Exploring whether she actually meant anything by them, or whether JKR was trying to say something about HG, the plot to come, or something already published is one of the reasons this list was set up. As to a person who is subjected to racial slurs not being capable of a similar offence, human history is sadly full of examples of the fallacy of that arguement. For a WW example, try Tom Riddle. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:03:44 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:03:44 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: <00cb01c3584c$67fe8c80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > From: severusbook4 > << another thought came to me from something said in another thread. > > > > It was suggested that Snape was a racist because of one word > > used when he was being taunted as a teenager (seen in the pensieve), > > so perhaps JKR might of been dropping a hint that not everything > > said by a teenage student to another is to be taken as a sign that > > they are deeply tainted with racist beliefs? >>>> > > > Actually, I think all of you are off base on this one. > I think her reaction is normal and has nothing to do with > being racist at all, remember she is the first to be singled out in > the series as a mudblood, a ancestrial slur against her parents. In > this sense she would be the last to condemn someone on their species > group. She just doesn't find him attractive. 'nough said. > ----- > > In the first place, my reply to this post was to the effect that a few thoughtless words does *not* make you an out and out racist, in the second place, HG doesn't simply state she finds Firenze unattractive or uninteresting, she actually labels him as an animal. I really don't think there is any real intent to insult behind it, but one of the basic ideas of a racially biased philosophy is that 'the(insert racial, religious or ethnic group here) are not quiet as well evolved and/or socially developed than us'. > > I do think that this scene may have been meant to help illustrate some of the points raised in other parts of the book, like how did Umbridge manage to get so many of her petty, restrictive and discriminatory laws passed before she came to Hogwarts? Perhaps the biggest fault with it is that it was too subtle. > > Dawn > > Sorry Dawn I didn't mean to offend. I was just trying to put her responce in the right context. The girls are speaking of how dreamy he is and Hermione's responce was to the fact she didn't find him attractive. And she does seem to have a problem with divination as a whole since it is not derived from a solid line of studies, it is too much interpretation for Hermione to like. That is why she is not so wild about Firenze, but in the forest she is very respectful towards the centaurs, even if her chosen words get twisted around by their leader. Centaurs, if I remember correctly, do not want to be aligned with humans but rather to be aligned with beasts, so Hermione doesn't find Firenze, a centaur, as someone to be romantically attracted to. Or am I the one completely off base on this one? If I am, sorry, Hermione is one of my favorite characters and I feel compelled to defend her. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dominik_reisner at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:12:37 2003 From: dominik_reisner at yahoo.com (dominik_reisner) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:12:37 -0000 Subject: why does harry have to lose his magic powers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74714 I thought of many things Harry could lose in a fight with Voldemort, for instance his sanity or his health, but I doubt that if he`ll lose his magical powers. Why should he? I guess if it were possible that wizards can release all their power in a single strike, Dumbledore would have done that, since he cares quite a lot about the WW and especially Harry. I also don`t think that LV can take the power of a wizard, otherwise he would have done that to surrender his enemies helpless. Dominik From katrinawitch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:33:30 2003 From: katrinawitch at yahoo.com (katrinawitch) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:33:30 -0000 Subject: the Fat Lady In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dublinaaireland" wrote: > I was just watching a show called Hamish Macbeth (Scottish show first aired around the late 90's), and one character said, '...it ain't *over* till the fat lady sings!', and it made me ask the question, does the fat lady in the picture frame sing?? I can't remember and am about to scan through 5 books. I've just completed a search and couldnt find anything relating to this on HP4GU...Has it been mentioned before?? > D Hi D! "It Ain't Over...." is an expression dating from the 50's/60's. I'm not sure who said it, but I think it's sports-related, and it's been credited at times to Yogi Berra (a former baseball player who went on to be a commentator). It refers to the fat viking ladies in old- time operas, and I guess it means, "it ain't over till it's over". So I don't think that Hogwarts' Fat Lady sings. Kat From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:16:37 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:16:37 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > > greatelderone wrote: > >>Was the Ron/Fleur thing even a relationships? Besides as > others noted GoF was more about Ron falling in love with Hermione > and getting over the fact that he can't have the Human-Veela so > I'm thinking that she was indeed talking about Ron/Hermione.<<< > > > Me: I think that he started to have feelings for her > in GOF. I also think that Hermione started to have feelings for > him (Ron). She was jealous when Ron would show his attraction to Fleur > and she also told Ron that next time there was a dance, he should > just ask her to begin with. I truly hope that JKR puts them > together because I have not really felt that between Harry and Hermione. I think that when the > story ends Harry will save the day, but Ron will get the girl! > > Joe (hoping that Ron and Hermione Weasly will one day live next > door to Harry and Ginny Potter). In a Television interview 5 hours before Order of the Phonix came out in the states. J.K. Rowling when asked "So is there gonna be a relationship between Harry and Hermione?" answered "Harry and Hermione? no Hermione and Ron maybe....." now (sorry to say this) this comment completely destroys H/H shipers. (send hatemail to Aimking0110 at yahoo.com) and makes the H/R ship look more like a reality. Garrett (who is sick in tired of these stupid ship post's) From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 1 17:14:30 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:14:30 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > GEO: She frowned when Harry told them that Cho kissed her. If > anything their close friendship imo could be the basis of a > relationship later in life. I would love to see an H/H relationship. Frankly, as much as I like Ron, he is simply not at Hermione's level either intellectually (dah!) or emotionally - but of course he will mature. That said, I believe an H/H ship will not happen. JKR created Hermione as a reflection of herself - down to the Patronus! (in the Scholastic 10/2000 interview she says that had she been able to produce a Patronus it would be an otter - I don't have the link handy but others have posted it). JKR is not arrogant enough to marry herself to the saviour of wizardkind. I think Ginny eventually ends up with Harry - or with Neville. As for Hermione, I am not sure she will actually hook up with anyone, at least not right after high school, as she is too focused on moral and political crusades. The series will end when they are all 18 years old. How many people have found their permanent partner at that age? Nothing is wrong with letting the kids find their own way in the adult world first. Salit From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 17:38:26 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 18:38:26 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment References: Message-ID: <010301c35853$b7d49cc0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74718 From: Wanda Sherratt <<> Perhaps the biggest fault with it is that it was too subtle. > I would like to believe that this is the case, but I don't. Rowling is not a subtle writer. When she wants us to get a point, she tells it to us, often over and over. When Draco called Hermione a mudblood, there was immediate outrage, a brawl, and the discussion of the insult went on into the next scene. When Snape called Lily the same, he was immediately shouted down, insulted in turn by Lily, and then handed a further beating by James. If Rowling were trying to say something negative about Hermione's character, someone would have reacted to her comments about Firenze. Nobody did. I think that we are giving Rowling more credit for deep thinking than she deserves. It looks to me like she thought of Hermione's remarks as a "zinger", putting the other girls in their place, and that was it. It obviously worked for some, but to me, the putdown is strangely out of place, given Hermione's background and the themes in the books up until now. Wanda I have to admit, I agree with you. Perhaps instead of 'subtle' I should have said 'poorly developed'? JKR *might* have meant to take this further, along the lines I suggested. However, this scene does smack of the oneupmanship sort of thing even adults do in their day to day interactions with people. It's also the sort of scene I could see Hermione replaying later in her head and cringing when she realises how it *might* be taken, but as the books are largely from Harry's POV, we wouldn't get to see that. I just like to point out other possibilities! Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From watsola79 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:46:09 2003 From: watsola79 at yahoo.com (watsola79) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:46:09 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Rude Comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Trish" wrote: > Could her comment have more to do with her dislike of things > proclaiming to see the future? It seems that JKR is going a little > out of her way to show Hermione as having no respect for Divination > in general. Could it be her insistence to find everything in a book? > Does she believe that the future can not be prophesized? Did she hear > a prophesy that she does not want to believe or is afraid to believe? > Does her muggle background make her believe that you must find > answers not from fortune tellers? Why is she so accepting of other > forms of magic, if fact every other form accept this one? Can you > link this to her insistence that everything Luna talks about is not > FACT but FABLE? She really has no patience for that either, does she? > I honestly think that there is less to the racism theory and more to > the idea that she has no patience for this type of magic. It could be > read, I guess that she has no patience for Lavender and Parvati but I > always read it this way. I would also like to know ......why? > > Trish. Who is trying to get the hang of this whilst the two little > ones pull on her shirt. I think she DOES change her point of view regarding the value of Divination...in the end of OOP, she answers Ron's comment with (sorry for paraphrasing) "How can you say that? After we've just found out that Prophecies are real?" It was in the battle that the prophecy became a *fact* for her, even though she did not reach that conclusion from something she read in a book. However, her newfound respect for that branch of magic undoubtedly did nothing to alter her feelings about Firenze or Trelawney. --Lana Lovegood From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Fri Aug 1 17:55:42 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:55:42 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > >> Dan: > > Is there canon for the idea that Kreacher is free to go now that > the Blacks are all dead? Or is he still bound to the house? Thus, > whoever inherits the house, gets Kreacher? > > -Dan > *snip* > It was dear Narcissa (Bellatrix's sister?) that > Kreacher conspired with to set up Harry and Sirius, was it not? *snip* > Kreacher is bound to the family, more than the house it seems. *SNIP* ME - but Ron says, about Dobby in CoS, 'House-elves come with big old manors and castles and places like that, you wouldn't catch one in our house...' Although Fred says in the line before that '..whoever owns him will be an old wizarding family, and they'll be rich' To me, it sounds like you maybe have to fulfill all three conditions. Doesn't clear it up, as we don't know if Harry might inherit the house, or if the Potters are an old wizarding family. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:59:35 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 10:59:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's Rude Comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030801175935.63405.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74721 --- watsola79 wrote: > I think she DOES change her point of view regarding the value > of > Divination...in the end of OOP, she answers Ron's comment with > (sorry > for paraphrasing) "How can you say that? After we've just > found out > that Prophecies are real?" It was in the battle that the > prophecy > became a *fact* for her, even though she did not reach that > conclusion from something she read in a book. However, her > newfound > respect for that branch of magic undoubtedly did nothing to > alter her > feelings about Firenze or Trelawney. > > --Lana Lovegood Well, McGonagall too thought Trelawney was a few fruit loops short of a bowl, and even Dumbledore commented in PoA that her prophecy regarding LV's rise brought her total of /real/ prophecies up to two. I don't think that Hermione's doubtfulness of Trelawney is going to change any time soon.... it's pretty firmly founded :o) Lisa G (who reads all the horoscopes and picks which one to believe, because they're all vague enough that they work for everyone) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 1 18:04:47 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:04:47 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > ME - but Ron says, about Dobby in CoS, 'House-elves come with big old > manors and castles and places like that, you wouldn't catch one in > our house...' > Although Fred says in the line before that '..whoever owns him will > be an old wizarding family, and they'll be rich' > To me, it sounds like you maybe have to fulfill all three conditions. > Doesn't clear it up, as we don't know if Harry might inherit the > house, or if the Potters are an old wizarding family. I guess one can debate this a bit, because the word "house" has two meanings. A building, like 12 Grimmauld Place, and also a family. I was always taking "house" in that sense, that a house elf served a house in the sense of the family members. Like "the House of Windsor"; Sirius is the last surviving member of "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black". If the family dies off, then the House is extinct, so what happens then? There are more distant relatives, but I'm not so clear if the house elf's servitude is transferrable, the way a piece of property would be. Wanda From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 18:14:40 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:14:40 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic)VERY LONGISH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: Don't you think she is just jealous of Lily? > I think she was jealous of Lily. I just don't think she was jealous over James. Petunia and Vernon seem to be in love. severusbook4: >I don't believe their parents treated them any differently, Petunia was jealous because her parents were so proud of Lily when she was excepted to Hogwart's and Petunia had nothing to offer her parents to make them that proud of her. > We don't know enough to be even remotely sure. You may be right. But I don't think so. To me it seems very clear that Petunia honestly believes Lily was the favorite child. severusbook4: >So like the spoiled brat she still acts like, she began to hate her sister because Lily was something different and very special (weren't their parents muggles like Hermione's), and that made Petunia feel very ordinary and plain. > No. I think there was some resentment before. Otherwise, I don't see how jealousy could turn to full-blown hatred. severusbook4: >Now I think the way she treats Harry is her way of "getting back" at her sister. I believe in order for Petunia to behave this way, her parents must have completely spoiled her after it came to light that Lily was a witch, and they didn't want Petunia to feel left out or not special. > I agree that she treats Harry to way she does to get back at Lily. I don't think it's because her parents spoiled her though. I think it's because they favored Lily (though maybe not on purpose) and Petunia wants to make very sure her son never feels like he's second place to anyone, especially Lily's child. severubook4: >In my family all three of us were praised for our strengths, my sister being the athlete, myself being the smart one, and my little brother being the emotional artistic one. I don't think Petunia had a strength to be praised, but her parents did any way and that false praise did more damage than good. > That's your family. I don't think the Evans family was like that. I think Lily got lots of praise and Petunia got "That's nice, dear." Besides, Petunia does have praise-worthy traits. I don't think I've ever seen anyone with her dedication. She had dedicated herself completely (and unhealthly) to Dudley's happiness. She keeps house excellently. Wizards comment that her house is unnaturally clean. Dedication is a good thing. Now if only she'd apply that dedication to something good. bibphile From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Aug 1 18:23:19 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:23:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] why does harry have to lose his magic powers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308012023.19670.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74724 dominik_reisner: > I thought of many things Harry could lose in a fight with Voldemort, > for instance his sanity or his health, but I doubt that if he`ll > lose his magical powers. Why should he? I guess if it were possible > that wizards can release all their power in a single strike, > Dumbledore would have done that, since he cares quite a lot about > the WW and especially Harry. It doesn't have to be an ability, it may be a trap that Harry chooses to fall on, a venom, whatever thing Jo wants. Why shouldn't he lose his powers if the circumstances are correct? We debate freely about if he is going to die or not, what is so shocking about losing powers? > I also don`t think that LV can take the power of a wizard, otherwise > he would have done that to surrender his enemies helpless. It depends. If it takes a long, complex ritual for every individual, your enemies might well finish you off before you surrender them helpless, speaking from a former Evil Lord. Again, it doesn't need to be common, or rare, knowledge. Can be an accident, as backfired Obliviate. silmariel From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 18:23:10 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:23:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: >>>GEO: It didn't say anything of the sort. The book just says that Hermione was furious. It never said that she was actually furious that Fleur kissed Ron or because Fleur kissed Harry.<<< Me: True, but the placement of "Hermione looked simply furious..." comes after the Ron kiss. If JKR had wanted to indicate that she was furious about the Harry kiss, or just the kissing in general, wouldn't it have made more sense to place the line earlier? Maybe add a little to it to make it clearer that that's what she was furious about? >>>GEO: She is saying how long it took for him to figure out that she was actually a girl when it was pretty obvious.<<< Me: And if her "dangerously" flashing eyes are any indication, she was pretty pissed about it. It's the strength of Hermione's emotions in these exchanges with Ron that seem suggestive to me. If she's not remotely interested in him, why would she care so much that it had taken him so long to "spot" that she's a girl? >>>GEO: [Fred and George] also happen to be able to apparate and in possession of extendable ears and are also older and perceptive of this kind of stuff. If they didn't notice sparks between the two then I really doubt there are any.<<< Me: I'm trying, but I can't really think of any evidence to suggest that they're "perceptive of this kind of stuff." The two of them are so very involved with they're own "stuff" that I doubt they'd notice any sparks developing between people around them. Do they even date? We know Fred took Angelina to the Yule Ball, but were they in a relationship afterwards? Not that we heard of. I'm beginning to suspect that the Weasley boys, as a rule, are "late bloomers" when it comes to the world of love and dating. >>>GEO: It has nothing to do with fame, but everything to do with the fact that the people she like or fall in love with are either people that claim to be those that fight against the dark forces or dark and brooding quidditch seekers which are all qualities that Harry possesses.<<< Me: What's funny is that, IMO, Lockhart and Krum kind of cancel each other out. GL was a flashy and charming, very matinee-idol-esque. And we have no evidence that Viktor's a "fighter of evils." Honestly, though, I don't think we can really assess Hermione's "type" from these two examples. Lockhart was a superficial, school-girl crush on a celebrity and I contend that we still don't know just what Hermione feels toward Krum. >>>GEO: She frowned when Harry told them that Cho kissed her.<<< Me: Actually, she had a slight frown on her face before Harry even admitted it. It could have been part of her "businesslike" demeanor, or a response to the way Ron was acting (he'd just spilled his ink and demanded that Harry answer the kiss question). My personal feeling is that the frown was showing concern, due to her insight into Cho's fragile emotional state. >>>GEO: If anything their close friendship imo could be the basis of a relationship later in life.<<< Me: Right. It could also be the basis for a relationship later in life between Hermione and Ron. >>>GEO: Furthermore any future permanent love interest that Harry has would have to replace Hermione's functions as advisor in all matters, his right arm and his confidente or else the relationship wouldn't work since no girl would actually like it if their boyfriend goes rushing off to his best female friend instead of them to ask for advice or for help. If anything the Cho relationship proved that.<<< Me: Yes, because we're all completely threatened basketcases who can't stand the idea of "our" men having friendships with women. Thanks for that generalization. I'll be sure to let all my friends who are self-assured and secure in their relationships know that they're doing it wrong. CM From shaman at mac.com Fri Aug 1 18:25:16 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:25:16 -0400 Subject: SHIPping Notes Message-ID: <7FBA95D2-C44D-11D7-ADF0-000393C324F6@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74726 2 things to help keep the discussion(s) focused: Just because we can see one character's feelings or reactions does not in any way mean that character's feelings will be requited, or that such reaction is a *clear foreshadowing* of future events. Example: Ginny Weasley. Ginny clearly had a crush on Harry in Bk 2, still had a crush on him in Bk 4 (apparently), and it's being argued currently that she still does; this in NO way means that Harry & Ginny will end up together - it just means Ginny likes Harry. It could just as easily foreshadow Ginny's betrayal of Harry / the Order (via the 'woman scorned' route? The Vole tapping into Ginny via the DiaryTom connection?) as any active love between them. Just because we can reference passages from all 5 books at random doesn't mean these events occurred at random in the Potterverse. A remark about an 11-year-old *by* an 11-year-old does NOT bear witness to the opinions/feelings of those 2 characters 5 years later. If you want to talk about how two people feel about each other now, talk about *now*. IE: if you're talking about GoF, then CoS is the *past*, and OotP is the *future*. Okay, 3 things: > Pshemekan: > So, when arguing something is SHIP, arguer should remeber that if > something was not stated explicite it does not mean that is not exists. True enough, but it *MUST* have *some* basis in canon if you want it taken seriously. Otherwise, we could claim that the real story w/ Fudge is that he's Scooby Doo in disguise, and pretend it's a valid possibility since JKR does not say explicitly that Fudge is NOT Scooby Doo. If it has no foundation in canon at all, then it's not about the books, and belongs on the OT list. (Apologies to Pshemekan: I'm quoting you, but not talking exclusively TO you) I'm new here, this is all my own opinion, just trying to keep the S/N ration up, not trying to be the boss. No offense intended to anyone. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 18:30:06 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:30:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy and the MoM References: <1059614393.21724.84330.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001f01c3585a$eee21240$057d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 74727 Dave: >In this scenario, I think Percy will become the new Barty Crouch, Sr., >bent on imposing an oppresive regime on the WW, and counteracting >"Dumbledore's Army" with "Fudge's Gestapo". And I think Percy >*will* throw at least one of his family into Azkaban -- Possibly >Arthur, in a cruelly ironic reversal of the Crouches (son turns in >father). A very interesting scenario! And I think a very believable one. Percy (as we well recall) idolised Barty. (As I've surmised), he blames himself for his hero's demise - why did he breach procedures when Barty didn't turn in for work, was Barty trying the only way he could to send a message that something was wrong when he owled Percy instructions while he was "on the sick", etc, etc - and all of this is stuff that Percy has been chewing on ever since the investigation. What more appropriate way for him to fail to deal with what happened than to take on his mentor's most famous role? Percy does have the ability to be officious, cold, procedure-bound, and extremely rigid. Plus nothing has happened to give him any impetus to mend the rift with his family. Let's hear it for Barty!Percy... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 18:33:35 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:33:35 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > "So is there gonna be a > relationship between Harry and Hermione?" answered "Harry and > Hermione? no Hermione and Ron maybe....." now (sorry to say this) > this comment completely destroys H/H shipers. (send hatemail to > Aimking0110 at y...) and makes the H/R ship look more like a > reality. > > Garrett (who is sick in tired of these stupid ship post's) Actually she said. Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" Rowling: "Harry and Hermione??? Do you think so?" Couric: "No, I'm kidding." Rowling: "RON and Hermione. There is more tension there, I would say." So basically Rowling neither denied or confirmed the R/H or H/H ships. So we are basically back to square one on the issue of confirmation of the ships. From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Aug 1 18:36:39 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 14:36:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape Respects Harry Now Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74729 In a message dated 8/1/2003 1:24:47 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rdhdwldflwr at comcast.net writes: Cassie: > I don't know if Respect is the right word though. I think they understand > each other a bit better though. > > > > I don't think I read the same book ya'll did! I saw NO respect > on Snape's part. > > Sharon Neither did I. Read the quote above. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 1 18:30:32 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:30:32 +0100 Subject: Taking offence (was: Herminones rude comment) Message-ID: <3C1F5DE2-C44E-11D7-937A-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74730 Much muttering on the message board about racism, insults etc. together with indications of rising blood pressures. This might be contentious to some, but I've never been afraid of being on the receiving end of insults, so away we go. To lay the basic ground rules - racism is a no-no. A big no-no. All agreed? Splendid! I had to read quite a few of the posts associated with 'Hermiones Rude Comment' before I realised that there were a number of members who were being deadly serious in equating calling a Centaur a horse with racism. Personally, I'd grade this as a dismissive put-down rather than a racist comment - on a par with calling Trelawney a silly old bat or calling the French cheese eating surrender monkeys. There *is* a difference. In my opinion a racist insult is only a racist insult if it is intended as such. Otherwise it should be classed as ignorance, insensitivity or rank bad manners. Of course, there are those poor unfortunates who desperately seek signs of racism to denounce in order to enhance their own Politically Correct credentials. They must have very sad lives, constantly searching for things to take offence to. Similarly, when Hermione says to Harry "He's a werewolf!" This is no more than an accurate description of a potentially dangerous situation. What is she supposed to say - " Harry, he's a lunar modulated lythocanthropist of the lupine persuasion!"? Be realistic! On one of my many contracts in places hot and uncomfortable, there was one with the usual mixed bag of nationalities that included Americans and Indians. There were a couple of Americans that almost became psychotic. The word "Indian" was forbidden; it must be "Native American". But that doesn't describe someone from Calcutta on the Bay of Bengal. They just could not say the word, it had been brainwashed out of them. They became so upset, uncomfortable and confused that the Indians began to suspect that they were being insulted in a way they didn't understand and started refusing to work with them because of American racism! Being too sensitive can be as damaging as not being sensitive enough. And to those who say that I don't understand - yes I do. Many times I've been insulted because of my race and my religion, sometimes both together, and from people who knew exactly what they were doing. But these were deliberate and calculated. Very different to searching for insults to satisfy your own personal philosophy. JKR did not expect this series of books to be the international success that it is. She thought that she might manage to sell a few thousand to supplement her income as a teacher. It is unreasonable to expect that she has planned a morally uplifting tract that takes into consideration the delicate sensitivities of every possible reader in the whole wide world or to guard against every possible interpretation, intended or not, that any hair-triggered polemicist may make. If that is your delight, then you belong with the Ultra Fundamentalists who also are trying to damage her. Go outside what is thought of as the Western Democracies or their holiday haunts and you'd better be prepared. Every racial and religious epithet possible will be thrown at you and everyone else. (Equal opportunity insults.) Complain and you are Western Imperialist scum who want to take over their country. Happy travels! Meantime, when JKR has characters insult each other, fine. It adds to the spice and the humour. But I don't think it reasonable to read too much into it. Kneasy From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Aug 1 18:44:56 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:44:56 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Other Implications of the Veil References: Message-ID: <005c01c3585d$01a79ab0$6e9ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74731 Poet wrote: > I hope I don't get yelled at but the veil also has some Biblical > implications(maybe not for JKR). It just what I thought of when I Well I'm not about to yell at you. :) I have a whole journal I'm keeping notes on of Biblical implications and Christian symbolisms in HP. Go figure. > read it. The veil in the Old Testament seperated the holy of holy > places for the rest of worshipers. Only the priest could go in. If > a non-priest went in, they tied a rope to him/her so they could pull > them out when they died. The death was associated with the thought > that it was too much to handle to go "beyond the veil." In the NT > the veil was lifted because of Jesus Christ. I am sure that the This is very interesting. I think we're pretty clear on the fact that the veil was in the Death Chamber (as called by Dumbledore), referring to the "beyond the veil" expression used by many to refer to death. Now, where did that expression come from? Somebody had to first refer to death as a veil, right? And the only veil in history I can think of is the veil in the tabernacle of the Old Testament referred to above. Sure, there may have been others, but that doesn't mean *I* can think of them. :) That's your job. Does anyone know where the "veil" analogy for death came from to begin with? Richelle From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 17:35:11 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 17:35:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment (slang and stuff)(longish again) In-Reply-To: <00fa01c35851$32347600$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > From: severusbook4 > <<This whole thing of Hermione being racist or rather a speciesist > is unfounded, she is the first to be singled out as a mudblood and > she is rather hurt by it, this would make her the last to use > someone's race or species as an insult against them. >> Dawn: >> The point of discussing this was, IMO, because Hermione *did* make comments that could be read as predudiced, so there is a foundation for the thread. Exploring whether she actually meant anything by them, or whether JKR was trying to say something about HG, the plot to come, or something already published is one of the reasons this list was set up. As to a person who is subjected to racial slurs not being capable of a similar offence, human history is sadly full of examples of the fallacy of that arguement. For a WW example, try Tom Riddle.<< But Dawn, Tom hid his mudblood past and there is no mention of him ever being called a mudblood, he was ashamed of it and killed his father because of it, if anyone is a racist it would be Tom Riddle. IMOO I think Tom became evil early on because he hated even himself for being a mudblood. All I was saying is that Hermione is portrayed as a person who will take up for the little people, or anything that she sees being mistreated, ie. the house elves, and the hippogriff, Bucky. I am not saying that her comment could not be construed as racist, because it could be, I am saying in the conversation she was having with the girls her comment did pertain to their attraction to the new divination proffessor. From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 18:58:41 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:58:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's Rude Comment References: <20030801175935.63405.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015301c3585e$edf2fa80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74733 I tried posting this earlier, but as it's been over an hour, and I've heard nothing from the elves, I'll try again. Sorry if it ends up duplicated. Dawn From: severusbook4 > Sorry Dawn I didn't mean to offend. <> None taken! <> Centaurs, if I remember correctly, do not want to be aligned with humans but rather to be aligned with beasts, so Hermione doesn't find Firenze, a centaur, as someone to be romantically attracted to. Or am I the one completely off base on this one? If I am, sorry, Hermione is one of my favorite characters and I feel compelled to defend her. > ---- You are right, given a choice between the two camps, centaurs chose not to be Human. In that respect, Beasts are not animals, simply nonhuman. I actually feel that in this scene Hermione is just a little thoughtless (or rather her comment is not properly thought out), and she makes the mistake of labling him an animal rather than as a Beast. Later in the Forest, she says the wrong thing because she carrys on talking before her common sense catches up with her intellect - hardly a new trait! Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Aug 1 19:06:39 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:06:39 -0000 Subject: Draco and Sirius(Was: A Good Slytherin? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "RP" wrote: > Many seem to parallel Draco with Sirius, concluding that Draco either > would break away from his evil parents like Sirius did, or he won't > because he is not a "good" person like Sirius who made the "right" > choice. I strongly disagree. > > Both Draco and Sirius are rather amoral, they are kind only to those > who they love or identify with, and can be cruel and without empathy > toward everyone else. I think that's a rather sweeping statement. Do you have evidence of Sirius being uniformly unkind to everyone other than his friends? Snape and Kreacher certainly were not on Sirius' list of favorite people, but how does this translate to "kind only to those they love or identify with"? > Sirius apparently, has always hated his family, period. Funny, I can't find any evidence in my book that, oh, say, five-year- old Sirius hated his family, period. Sixteen-year-old Sirius left because he'd "had enough." I agree, that whatever happened built up over a number of years, and was not a sudden epiphany, but again, saying that Sirius hated his family all of his life is a stretch. If he had any love for his parents and > brother, and if their attitude towards muggle-borns was indeed the > main reason he could not stand them, then he would have tried to > persuade them to change their view. How do you know he didn't try? Maybe he did consistently try after being exposed to non-pure bloods at Hogwarts and all he got in return was screaming abuse from his parents. And if he could not make them > change their prejudice, he would oppose this particular stance of > theirs but still cares for them. But I didn't pick up any sign that > Sirius had much feelings about his family, other than loathing. I don't agree that one necessarily still loves family members in spite of everything. We don't know the dynamics of the family situation. Maybe Sirius did indeed hate his entire family from the time he became a toddler. Or maybe he got tired and finally angry with being treated like dirt because he had ideas that Mummy and Daddy didn't agree with. Sometimes, love dies. > I am not saying Sirius was "wrong" in that sense, just saying he is > thus very very different from Draco who apparently cares deeply about > his parents. But, then again, they all seem to have the same ideas about family and blood and society. Draco has never butted heads with Lucius about the core of the Malfoy family values. There is NO reason for Draco to break away from his > family the way Sirius did. Even if Draco does one day realize how > wrong his parents are (which I doubt), he still would not be the > second Sirius. > Who I think Sirius paralleled was Barty Jr, who hated his father > thoroughly too -- the big difference was that Sirius left his family > to join the "light" side, while Barty Jr rebelled against his dad by > join rank with Voldermort. And who would Draco parallel if he ever > ditches his own family for his own good? Percy Weasley! > > "RP" That's an intriguing parallel. But, I can't see Draco leaving the bosom of Family Malfoy unless he's going someplace equally as exalted in terms of money and position. Althought people can always surprise you...maybe Draco will wake up one day and decide to go be a starving artist ;-) Marianne From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Aug 1 18:29:02 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:29:02 +0200 Subject: Fwd: Re: [HPforGrownups] Neville's Wand / Neville's Plant (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) Message-ID: <200308012029.02960.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74735 [Yahoomort strikes again] flying_meese: <> You are right. Not any feather, a tail feather, as Ollivander describes in PS, I think. If there is another explicit requirement for the feather that would exclude the golden tail feather of Fawkes and she has not given it by now I would feel cheated by Rowling, you know. Because the only golden feathers that Fawkes has are in the tail, I think is described in GoF. Sorry if I can't quote canon but I don't know the books by heart and my boyfriend has borrowed all of them from me (he's quitting smoking). Del <> Well, it is again my boyfriend. He 'predicted' before OoP that: Neville's birthday was near Harry's (he said 24h of difference) Neville's book was going to be important and it would have to do with his family, curing his fathers or something like that. I didn't give him credit, because it was a part of his 'Neville and Harry are Twin brothers'. It included things like the real Neville Longbottom born dead or killed by Voldie first. He also has theories as DD being a vampire, so it's no wonder I don't defend his ideas in this forum, but when I read the phrophecy and the mimbulus mimbletonia thing, I started looking at him other way, that's for sure. I'm with you on this. The book and the plant, together, are going to be useful. silmariel From p_yanna at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 19:13:36 2003 From: p_yanna at hotmail.com (frumenta) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:13:36 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74736 > > I don't think I read the same book ya'll did! I saw NO respect > > on Snape's part. > > > > Sharon > I can't pretend to remember who said what in this thread but how about we look at the lessons themselves and Snape's interraction with Harry, shall we? People said that Snape didn't tell Harry what he should do: 'And what are you going to do?' Harry asked, eyeing Snape's wand apprehensively. 'I am about to attempt to break into your mind,' said Snape softly. 'We are going to see how well you resist. I have been told that you have already shown aptitude at resisting the Imperius Curse. You will find that similar powers are needed for this . . . brace yourself, now. Legilimens!' p.471, UK edition Snape is not trying to teach this thing to just anyone, he's teaching a kid who is able to resist the Imperius curse! No one told Harry what to do then, he found the strength within himself and did it! Why must we insist that Snape should do more to "teach" Harry in the traditional sense of the word? Occlumency is not your typical subject. He told Harry what to do, on this and on other occasions and Harry just kept arguing with him and being disrespectful. Then we have Snape seeing the first batch of memories of Harry's, among which a rather embarrassing memory for Harry, Cho's kiss, which was what prompted him to react. Now, where it comes to Harry's love life, Snape gleefully read the Prophet article on it in his entire class in GoF. The rest of the memories are also potentially embarrassing (cat Hermione? Harry as a Slytherin?) but Snape doesn't comment on any of them. All he does talk about to let Harry know he did actually see into his memories is the dog. And then we have the second attempt, in which since Harry has failed to get rid of his emotions, Snape picks up some rather unpleasant memories including Cedric's death (which seem to upset Snape himself considering he is "paler than usual" after seeing them). Read the exchange! (containing the now famous pot calling kettle black speech of Snape's about weak people that are easily provoked). Harry challenges Snape every step of the way and Snape simply tells Harry what to do without punishing him for his insolence. In the following lesson, Snape discovers that Harry has still been having dreams about Voldemort but didn't bother to tell him. Snape tries to get Harry off the idea that he's special and that it's up to him to find out what Voldemort is up to. And when Harry tells him that that's "That's your job, isn't it?" Harry himself realising that he may have gone too far, Snape simply gives him a straight answer about it. And then Harry breaks into Snape's memories and even though Snape is obviously not too happy about that, there is no petty punishment, on the contrary, Snape tellls him that "this was certainly an improvement". End of this scene and we don't know what may have happened as Harry is once more disrespectful and basically calls Snape a Death Eater to his face. Well, call me crazy but I saw a definite change for the better in Snape's manner towards Harry during the lessons. From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 19:20:53 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:20:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment (slang and stuff)(longish again) References: Message-ID: <015b01c35862$079ee900$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74737 From: severusbook4 <>As to a person who is subjected to racial slurs not being capable of a similar offence, human history is sadly full of examples of the fallacy of that arguement. For a WW example, try Tom Riddle.<< But Dawn, Tom hid his mudblood past and there is no mention of him ever being called a mudblood, he was ashamed of it and killed his father because of it, if anyone is a racist it would be Tom Riddle. IMOO I think Tom became evil early on because he hated even himself for being a mudblood.>>>>> ----- I think I was refering to the taunting Tom heard from his father. Far from curing him of any wish to taunt others, he was determined to them wipe out. (I can't quote, I don't have the book to hand. Have I remembered this right?) ------ <<<<< All I was saying is that Hermione is portrayed as a person who will take up for the little people, or anything that she sees being mistreated, ie. the house elves, and the hippogriff, Bucky. I am not saying that her comment could not be construed as racist, because it could be, I am saying in the conversation she was having with the girls her comment did pertain to their attraction to the new divination proffessor. ----- I can see now that that was not your intention, it was just that you posted "This whole thing of Hermione being racist or rather a speciesist is unfounded" , and I'm afraid I rose to the bait. As you say now, it is possible to read this as a slur, and I thought it might be worth further discussion. Please see my other posts on this subject for my prefered interpretation! Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 20:05:01 2003 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3509 In-Reply-To: <1059764357.22388.36914.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030801200501.52453.qmail@web10005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74738 IMHO I think DD foreshadowed the end in OOP when he told Voldemort "there are worse things than death". I think Harry will strip him of his power and force the most powerful wizard in 100 years to live out his last few years as an old powerless and very mortal muggle. ===== __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 20:07:24 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:07:24 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: > As much as I like Snape, I cannot imagine him frolicking as a > child...period... Now this has got to be the saddest thing I've ever read here! Oh come on now, no frolicking, ever? Not even some lonely desultory gambolling? Not even, say...holding his patched robes up to his knees while wading through some muddy brook somewhere chasing tadpoles? There are fireflies in Britain, aren't there? I'm sure there are--now he's JUST the type who'd have collected a whole jar full of those. That would require a tiny bit of cavorting, don't you think? PLEASE????? Oh GOD where's the Zoloft? Melpomene who thinks she'll go read "Snape's Worst Memory" to try to cheer up! From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 20:26:33 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:26:33 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" > wrote: > > > "snip" . . . comment completely destroys H/H shipers. (send hatemail to Aimking0110 at y...) and makes the H/R ship look more like a reality. > > > Garrett (who is sick in tired of these stupid ship post's) > >Then greatelderone said: Actually she said. > > Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" "snip" *** > > Rowling: "RON and Hermione. There is more tension there, I would say." > > So basically Rowling neither denied or confirmed the R/H or H/H > ships. So we are basically back to square one on the issue of > confirmation of the ships. Talisman, who shares the Dept. of Mysteries fascination with the workings of the human mind, says: Huh? You don't see that as JKR saying the chemisty (& future snogging)is between Ron and Hermione? Talisman, who is sending Bagman your way so he can recoup all his old betting debts. From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 20:28:26 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 13:28:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030801202826.85827.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74741 --- melclaros wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" > wrote: > > As much as I like Snape, I cannot imagine him frolicking as > a > > child...period... > > Now this has got to be the saddest thing I've ever read here! > Oh come > on now, no frolicking, ever? Not even some lonely desultory > gambolling? Not even, say...holding his patched robes up to > his knees > while wading through some muddy brook somewhere chasing > tadpoles? > There are fireflies in Britain, aren't there? I'm sure there > are--now > he's JUST the type who'd have collected a whole jar full of > those. > That would require a tiny bit of cavorting, don't you think? > PLEASE????? > Oh GOD where's the Zoloft? He /had/ to frolic as a kid, I'm sure he was out collecting all the crawlies for him to start learning potions. Bringing in all sorts of slimy and tentacled thingies, dissecting them, leaving leetle bitty entrails on the polished white tile kitchen counter, hearing the screams of Mommy Snape to "get in here this INSTANT and clean up this mess, you KNOW that salamander bile stains the grout!" The neighborhood girls chasing down little Sevvie Snape to give his greasy hair a VO5 treatment and put it in pigtails, holding him down for the avocado mask.... Huge brain fart, don't know if we know this, but did Snape have siblings? If ever there was a reason for a man to grow up bitter and crotchety, it's having renegade older sisters who like doing makeovers on unsuspecting little brothers. Lisa G, who only recently disclosed to the 15yr old brother that there are pictures of him as a two year old, dressed in drag (I always called him Sarah) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 20:37:39 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:37:39 -0000 Subject: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74742 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: >> I guess one can debate this a bit, because the word "house" has two > meanings. A building, like 12 Grimmauld Place, and also a family. > I was always taking "house" in that sense, that a house elf served a > house in the sense of the family members. Like "the House of > Windsor"; Sirius is the last surviving member of "The Noble and Most > Ancient House of Black". If the family dies off, then the House is > extinct, so what happens then? There are more distant relatives, > but I'm not so clear if the house elf's servitude is transferrable, > the way a piece of property would be. > > Wanda The house elves are treated as property, as a slave, but most house elves we have been introduced to WANT to belong to a family. Dobby was a bit of a one of, because he wanted to be free and paid for his work. I took house elf to mean an elf that belonged to a family, that served around the family home. As far as Ron's comment about elves being found in manors, etc., I took that to mean it was usually wealthy families who owned house elves. As far as Sirius' relatives, we know Dobby is devoted to Bellatrix and the other "cousins". I am curious as to how Hogwarts' house elves came to be there. Dobby was "hired" to work there, and he got Winky a job there, but all the others? There must be hundreds that work at Hogwarts... Anyway, back to Kreacher... I was thinking he has probably done all the damage he can do, unless he IS kept at Grimmauld Place AND the OoTP continue to use the house. WHat about you all? Lynne... or Lynnette... or, according to DS, "yo Mom, what's up?" From dcyasser at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 18:04:21 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:04:21 -0000 Subject: why does harry have to lose his magic powers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dominik_reisner" wrote: > I thought of many things Harry could lose in a fight with Voldemort, > for instance his sanity or his health, but I doubt that if he`ll > lose his magical powers. Why should he? I guess if it were possible > that wizards can release all their power in a single strike, > Dumbledore would have done that, since he cares quite a lot about > the WW and especially Harry. > I also don`t think that LV can take the power of a wizard, otherwise > he would have done that to surrender his enemies helpless. > Dominik Your post brings up another point I've been thinking about in light of Harry's predicament, and because Hermione hasn't quoted it to us from a history book (yet) I wonder if it is public knowledge: how did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald? He is not obviously scarred, a la Moody; he is sane, if whimsical; he has obviously been able to lead a productive and healthy life following that confrontation and victory, and he is certainly in possesion of his powers, enough to make LV tremble in his booties. We tend to imagine Harry post-LV as either dead, scarred, without magic, estranged from the magical world; or just really unhappy. Yet we and Harry have to look at DD as a role model in evil-wizard-battling; perhpas DD was even prophesied to defeat Grindelwald, we don't know. But I expect more exposition on DD's personal history as a guidepost for what Harry may or may not be able to accomplish vs LV, and as to what the personal cost of it may be to Harry. I have entertained the idea of a wizard calling upon all of their power to defeat another, and that being a sacrifice, but maybe DD has other tricks up his sleeve to mentor Harry? - dc From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 18:07:03 2003 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:07:03 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Rude Comment In-Reply-To: <20030801175935.63405.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74744 > --- watsola79 wrote: > > I think she DOES change her point of view regarding the value > > of > > Divination...in the end of OOP, she answers Ron's comment with > > (sorry > > for paraphrasing) "How can you say that? After we've just > > found out > > that Prophecies are real?" It was in the battle that the > > prophecy > > became a *fact* for her, even though she did not reach that > > conclusion from something she read in a book. However, her > > newfound > > respect for that branch of magic undoubtedly did nothing to > > alter her > > feelings about Firenze or Trelawney. Wait...when did she make the comment about Firenze? Wasn't it before the end of the book when she finds out prophecies are for real? How do we know then, that her feelings about Firenze and Trelawney have not changed? Maybe they have? Trish From shaman at mac.com Fri Aug 1 20:51:45 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:51:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74745 On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 04:26 PM, Talisman wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" > wrote: >> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" >> wrote: >>>> "snip" . . . comment completely destroys H/H shipers. (send > hatemail to Aimking0110 at y...) and makes the H/R ship look more like > a reality. >> >>> Garrett (who is sick in tired of these stupid ship post's) >> >> Then greatelderone said: Actually she said. >> >> Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" "snip" *** >> >> Rowling: "RON and Hermione. There is more tension there, I would > say." >> >> So basically Rowling neither denied or confirmed the R/H or H/H >> ships. So we are basically back to square one on the issue of >> confirmation of the ships. > > Talisman, who shares the Dept. of Mysteries fascination with the > workings of the human mind, says: > Huh? You don't see that as JKR saying the chemisty (& future > snogging)is between Ron and Hermione? I certainly don't. Smells just like North Sea herring - red, to be precise. -- Charlie, who's had enough fish for a while From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 1 18:34:33 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:34:33 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and the Prophecy that was In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74746 > An author that invokes such a deep desire to know that happens next > and what this or that means, certainly can't be an unsatisfactory or > illogical author. No indeed, JKR is cunning, and ruthless in her > devious logic, and while we may be unsatisfied, I am sure she is > sitting at home with a very smug satisfied look on her face. > > > bboy_mn I'd disagree, an author that invokes a desire to know the end absolutely can be illogical - especially if the ending in unsatisfactory. Posing the question and laying the groundwork, doesn't mean in the end the conclusion will be satisfying. I always want to find out what is causing the crazy capers on Scooby Doo - but really they aren't logical. Logic is never devious! It is absolute. It bends for no woman. Answers can sometimes be complicated to parse out but they are there and clear. Creating a thirst in your reader is only one skill. Now Rowling has to show she can satisfy us over the long term. Endings to books and movies can most certainly be unsatisfactory. AI had a horrible ending as did What Dreams May Come (though that was sticky overall...) After OOTP, I'm not satisfied. I thought the ending was atrocious and rather cheap. Other than the great revalation that Harry will die and rise again like Christ, I can't say I learned anything from OOTP. So what to do... Well wait and see if she comes through. She could fail. IMO she already has. Golly, Who hopes rain won't stiffle her OOTP bonfire! From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 21:05:26 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:05:26 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: <20030801202826.85827.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74747 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > --- melclaros wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" > > > wrote: > > > As much as I like Snape, I cannot imagine him frolicking as > > a > > > child...period... > > > > Now this has got to be the saddest thing I've ever read here! > > Oh come > > on now, no frolicking, ever? Not even, say...holding his patched robes up to his knees while wading through some muddy brook somewhere chasing tadpoles? There are fireflies in Britain, aren't there? I'm sure there are--now he's JUST the type who'd have collected a whole jar full of those. That would require a tiny bit of cavorting, don't you think? PLEASE????? Oh GOD where's the Zoloft? > > He /had/ to frolic as a kid, I'm sure he was out collecting all > the crawlies for him to start learning potions. did Snape have siblings? If ever there was a reason for a man to grow up bitter > and crotchety, it's having renegade older sisters who like doing > makeovers on unsuspecting little brothers. > > Lisa G, who only recently disclosed to the 15yr old brother that > there are pictures of him as a two year old, dressed in drag (I > always called him Sarah) LOL! I like the blackmailable goods on your brother... especially at his age, LOL! All we know for sure is that Snape has what we assume was a father, who was described as yelling at a woman we also assume was his mother, probably because a young boy cowering in the corner, we assume is Snape. It never actually states they are HE and HIS parents. For all we know it could have been HIM, his wife and their child.... uh oh... new conspiracy/spy theory... what if it WAS him and he was angry because his wife and son were in danger or something... I can picture him collecting specimens as a youngster, which he would have enjoyed, but he doesn't seem like somone who has had much "joy" in his life. Might explain a lot about his severe disposition. I hope I am so wrong about it too, because I just love my favourite fictional dream guy! Lynne From snapesmate at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 21:09:01 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:09:01 -0000 Subject: correction to my last Re: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" > we know Dobby is devoted to Bellatrix and the other "cousins". > Lynne... or Lynnette... or, according to DS, "yo Mom, what's up?" I meant KREACHER!!!! Not lovable Dobby! Lynne From subrosax at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 21:09:48 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:09:48 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: <20030801202826.85827.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74749 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > He /had/ to frolic as a kid, I'm sure he was out collecting all > the crawlies for him to start learning potions. Bringing in all > sorts of slimy and tentacled thingies, dissecting them, leaving > leetle bitty entrails on the polished white tile kitchen > counter, hearing the screams of Mommy Snape to "get in here this > INSTANT and clean up this mess, you KNOW that salamander bile > stains the grout!" The neighborhood girls chasing down little > Sevvie Snape to give his greasy hair a VO5 treatment and put it > in pigtails, holding him down for the avocado mask.... > I guess that sort of counts as frolicking. Not exactly a scene out of "The Sound of Music", but probably as close as little Snape ever got. Oh, how different things could have been for poor Severus if Frauelein Maria had turned up at his dark doorstep with a guitar! I bet she would have fixed him up with some "play robes" made out of old drapes, and taken him out for a gambol in the countryside. There wouldn't have been a fly situation in the house either, for no proper Austrian would abide that level of unsanitation!! Allyson From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:11:31 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:11:31 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: All we know for sure is that Snape has what we assume was a father, who was described as yelling at a woman we also assume was his mother, probably because a young boy cowering in the corner, we assume is Snape. It never actually states they are HE and HIS parents. For all we know it could have been HIM, his wife and their child.... uh oh... new conspiracy/spy theory... what if it WAS him and he was angry because his wife and son were in danger or something... > That doesn't make sense. If the man were Snape, I'm pretty sure Harry would have reconized him. Since it's Snape memory, he has to be there so he has to be the boy (unless he's the woman :p). However, you're right that we have no proof these were his parent. I think they were though. bibphile From steve at hp-lexicon.org Fri Aug 1 21:14:11 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:14:11 -0000 Subject: Sinistra: The mystery is solved Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74751 It's official. Sinistra is a woman. I have been corresponding with the team who is doing the translation of OP into Portuguese, answering their questions about various characters and facts in the book. (Side note: It's pretty darn cool that the Portugese translation team has been working with the Lexicon up on their computer screens for reference the whole time...) The other day they emailed me and asked what gender Sinistra was, since in Portuguese it makes a big difference in the choice of word endings where it doesn't in English. At first they said she had to be female because of the feminine ending on Sinistra, but I pointed out that then everyone with the last name of Garcia would be a woman, so that logic didn't help. I suggested that they contact Rowling and ask, which is what they did. Today I received an email from the Portugal team telling me that Rowling's reps have confirmed that Sinistra is in fact a woman. I know that some of you who have been here for a few years remember our lengthy discussions about this question. I am glad to say that you can all sleep easily now that the mystery is officially solved. Carry on. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:16:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:16:45 -0000 Subject: Elixir of Life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" > wrote: > > > > Another thing I thought of just now (4 am, so dont expect much) - > > Flamel is in fact a muggle. ...edited... > > > > Olaf, glad and big bboy_mn: We don't know for a fact that Flamel was a muggle. True he was a real live person who is a documented part of muggle history, but that wouldn't stop him from being a wizards. Many of the witches and wizards on the chocolate frog card are real people whose history you can look up in muggle history books; yet they are wizards. Since Flamel is know to the wizard world (and the wizard world is known to him) and that he has a part in wizard history, all make me think he was a wizard as well as an alchemist. Those two things, magic and alchemy, are frequently associated in fictional stories of magic, wizards, and witches. > KathyK > > Or Voldemort had no way to get to him because Flamel knows that many > people, not just evil wizards, will want what he has (a means to > achieve immortality and great wealth). > bboy_Mmn: I think you are on to something here. Flamel is almost 700 years old, and in all that time, I'm sure every evil witch and wizard, and many not so evil witches and wizards have lusted after the Philospher's Stone. Certainly, Flamel will have had to have taken extraordinary precautions to guard it and himself. > KathyK continues: > Maybe he and his wife are constantly in hiding, ... bboy_mn: On one hand we do know were Flamel lives; Devon, I think. When Harry remembered who Flamel was, Hermione went to here room and brought back a book with a summary of Flamels history. The book said where he lives, or at least what county he lives in. >KathyK continues: > > ...having all sorts of protections against attempts to steal the > stone or the elixir. As I said above, Flamel has had 700 years of practice at guarding the stone, and generally speaking, keeping the Stone and it secrets away from unenlightened people is one of the primary objectives of a successful alchemist. So, I'm sure Flamel had every conceivable and perhaps a few as yet unconceive by common wizards, protection around himself, his family, his house, the elixer, and the stone. > Maybe they moved it to Gringott's after Quirrel/Voldemort > tried to get at it. Since Gringott's has never been successfully > broken into, it would be an obvious solution until they could get > the stone to Dumbledore. > > KathyK bboy_mn: Not only is the stone in Gringotts, it is deep deep deep within the underground storage, and is in a high security vault. A vault that isn't opened with a key, so it would be difficult and dangerous for anyone to try and open. It would seem to be a very safe place, especially against common theives, but when Flamel and Dumbledore somehow gained information that there was an active plot to steal the Stone, they thought it would be better protected if it were a little closer by so they could keep a personal eye on it. Then, of course, they moved it to Hogwarts. Despite people's statements that the enchantments, beast, and charm were pretty pathetic if a few first years could get past them, I think the stone was very well protected, and the first years that got past the protection, were not your typical first years. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 1 21:17:00 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:17:00 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74753 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G > wrote: > > > He /had/ to frolic as a kid, I'm sure he was out collecting all > > the crawlies for him to start learning potions. Bringing in all > > sorts of slimy and tentacled thingies, dissecting them, leaving > > leetle bitty entrails on the polished white tile kitchen > > counter, hearing the screams of Mommy Snape to "get in here this > > INSTANT and clean up this mess, you KNOW that salamander bile > > stains the grout!" The neighborhood girls chasing down little > > Sevvie Snape to give his greasy hair a VO5 treatment and put it > > in pigtails, holding him down for the avocado mask.... > > > > I guess that sort of counts as frolicking. Not exactly a scene out > of "The Sound of Music", but probably as close as little Snape ever > got. Oh, how different things could have been for poor Severus if > Frauelein Maria had turned up at his dark doorstep with a guitar! I > bet she would have fixed him up with some "play robes" made out of > old drapes, and taken him out for a gambol in the countryside. There > wouldn't have been a fly situation in the house either, for no proper > Austrian would abide that level of unsanitation!! > > Allyson In the spirit of true frivolity and given that his family seemed to have been somewhat "old fashioned" I will add that he actually frolicked in a "Little Lord Fauntleroy" velvet suit. He also had curls to his shoulders. In fact... (getting into my stride now)... it was an idyllic golden lit english childhood passed in the Snape Country home, which was a tudor manor house with extensive gardens and a stream at the bottom of the garden and a lake with an island on it, like in "Swallows and Amazons", oh and mountains in the distance and a home farm, tenanted by trusty retainers.... Sigh... Until dad took to the Firewhiskey, lost all their money in a magical speculation on portkey shares and they had to go and live in that grotty flat in Clapham... And then dad's drinking got worse... And so on, ad infinitum. June From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:17:36 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:17:36 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74754 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: > Do you have quotes from JKR or canon-based info on Veela's as a > race to back this up? It seems to me that you're making some fairly > bold assumptions here. GEO: Not on their alignment with the dark arts, but certainly on their power and hold over men. Notice that their hold only extends to the fellows looking at them and that it didn't work for those who weren't looking at them or who weren't hearing their song. Furthermore when Harry was under the thrall of the Veela it was quite similar to the Imperius curse that Barty-Moody placed upon him in that he lost control of himself and was about to jump out of the box. > I suspect that if Veela's were as scary and > dangerous as you're making them sound, the Dolores Umbridges of the > WW would have passed all sorts of anti-Veela legislation that would > at the very least have kept them away from the World Quidditch Cup. GEO: Except the Wizarding World is as united as our own world and the qudditch world cup was in chaos thanks to Bagman. Besides remember that the Egyptian referee wanted to toss the Veela out precisely because of their mind control powers. > Again, care to give some canon on this? Roger Davies seems to be one of the victims. The description given in the Yule Ball chapter does indeed match that "deer in the headlights quality"/hypnotized quality that you were looking for which indicates that she does have some Veela powers. The fact that Davies was under her thrall at least imo makes it obvious that Fleur's many admirers were coming to her because of her part veela nature. Also the veela in the forest don't have that hypnotic effect that they did during the world cup, but the fact that they caused all those wizards to act strangely act out of character including Ron does indicate some sort of magic. So Fleur doesn't necessarily have to hypnotize Ron in the traditional sense to put him under her control. > Also, out of curiosity, do you think Bill Weasley is only dating her > because of the Veela thing? GEO: We don't know. Perhaps Bill wouldn't be affected as much because of the fact that he is a curse breaker with the goblins. > I don't think Hermione is "far from normal." Really? Her large knowledge of magic aside she can be more of a puzzle (the whole issue with the Time Turner, the unexplained issue with the Boggart and the Imperius Curse) than Harry himself at times just indicates that she is indeed atypical emotionally in contrast to Lavender, Parvati and Ron who are the average and typical students at Hogwarts. Also unlike many of the others she has practically cut many of the ties with her own family spending much of her vacation time with the Order of the Phoenix in the Black House. >I do think that if she was truly > interested in him, she'd have taken him up on his offer to visit him > over the summer. Instead, oddly, she chose to spend that time helping > the Weasley's clean Sirius's house. Yeah, that compares to several > weeks in a foreign country on the arm of a pro-Quidditch player. GEO:So? She also sacrificed her personal time with her parents during the winter vacation to go back to that house. Not exactly a big deal, but it makes her more puzzling. From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:23:17 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:23:17 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Charlie Moody wrote: > On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 04:26 PM, Talisman wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" > > wrote: > >> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" > >> wrote: > >>>> "snip" . . . comment completely destroys H/H shipers. (send > > hatemail to Aimking0110 at y...) and makes the H/R ship look more like > > a reality. > >> > >>> Garrett (who is sick in tired of these stupid ship post's) > >> > >> Then greatelderone said: Actually she said. > >> > >> Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" "snip" *** > >> > >> Rowling: "RON and Hermione. There is more tension there, I would > > say." > >> > >> So basically Rowling neither denied or confirmed the R/H or H/H > >> ships. So we are basically back to square one on the issue of > >> confirmation of the ships. > > > > Talisman, who shares the Dept. of Mysteries fascination with the > > workings of the human mind, says: > > Huh? You don't see that as JKR saying the chemisty (& future > > snogging)is between Ron and Hermione? > > I certainly don't. Smells just like North Sea herring - red, to be > precise. > -- > Charlie, who's had enough fish for a while Talisman, who thinks too much fishing gets you all wet, replies: If you are smelling fish, you should check your nose. No, wait, that's it! JKR subtly crafts the budding sexual tension between Ron and Hermione throughout Books 4 and 5 because she wants to play Gilligan's Island and frustrate everyone in the end! And yes! That's it, Charlie! You can't believe anything JKR says because--even with obvious non-central plot themes--it's all red herring! Even when she tells the truth, since you suspect more herring, it becomes more herring! How clever of you to have caught her out, the whole book is red herring and the only things that will happen in books 6 and 7 are things for which there is no predicate in the rest of the series. Bloody Brilliant. Talisman, who will be collecting Galleons when the dust settles. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:24:00 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:24:00 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > I seriously doubt that Harry and Hermione will become romantically > linked. There are a number of reasons. > > 1. Ron's jealousy over Hermione's relationship with Krumm. He may > not realize it yet, but he is quite interested in Hermione. As she > says of him in OoP, he is a bit dense when it comes to real emotion. > GEO:Jealousy doesn't indicate that they'll have a successful relationship. If anything it just indicates that the relationship would be driven more by passion which tends to burn out than by common friendship which is the driving force of the H/HR relationship. > 2. Hermione only mentions or writes to Krum in the presence of > Ron. Clearly, she is trying to make him jealous. GEO: Using your amazing method of deduction couldn't it also be because was trying to stir some latent feelings that Harry might have for her? > 3. Hermione is clearly trying to help Harry in his relationship with > Cho. I don't know about anyone else, but even at my advanced age, if > I were interested in someone, I would definitely not encourage a > relationship with someone else. GEO:Fortunately you aren't hermione. If you haven't noticed everything she does for Harry, no matter how difficult for her, she does for his benefit. She tries to stop him from going to the MoM even when he rages at her and encourages him to go back to Snape for occlumency lessons. And in POA she reports the firebolt knowing that she'll get on Harry's bad side all because she thinks that Sirius jinxed it. > 4. Rowling herself said there are clues in her books to many > things. Anyone who has read OoP will see at the end of the story how > Ron wants Harry to get together with Ginny. GEO:Doesn't mean that he will. Seems to me, Ron is trying to get Harry hooked up with Ginny so that he'll eliminate his competition in regard toward Hermione. If anything I suspect Ron knows or thinks that there is something between Hermione and Harry. > As to that picture in Newsweek...anyone who has read PoA will realize > that is when the dementors surround Harry and Hermione. No romantic > moment there. GEO:However the Hippogriff moment was romantic considering that the hippogriffs are symbols of love in greek and roman art. Furthermore in both PoA and Ootp there are quite a few moments when Harry and Hermione are alone with Buckbeak the Hippogriff. From shaman at mac.com Fri Aug 1 21:28:26 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:28:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <160B8596-C467-11D7-ADF0-000393C324F6@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74757 On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 05:17 PM, greatelderone wrote: > [ Excellent comments on the veela, deleted ] Some thoughts I had earlier about Ron & Fleur: The veela seem to have the same effect on men as sirens, lamae, & Hooter's waitresses: they trigger an instinctive, mindless rush of desire that drowns out everything else - specifically including duty, loyalty, and love. Okay, I'm kidding about the Hooter's part (never been there), but still such creatures exist in the literature of legend in recognition of the facts that lust can have this very effect, especially on the newly-adolescent (and especially on men? Such figures are always female, but who knows why?), and that this rush of feeling IS *NOT* love. Indeed, a lesson every boy needs to learn on the way to becoming a man is how to resist the veela of the world - otherwise, he risks being dragged by his impulses through a pretty shallow (and very possibly shorter-than-normal) life. Having some experience w/ this stuff (being a man & all), I have to say that this is "older-but-wiser" territory for me....and for that reason, I'll need some serious persuasion to convince me that Ron is, or ever was, "in love" with Fleur in any meaningful sense. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:36:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:36:51 -0000 Subject: the Fat Lady - Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74758 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dublinaaireland" wrote: >> ... '...it ain't *over* till the fat lady sings!', and it made me ask the question, does the fat lady in the picture frame sing?? << > D bboy_mn: Well, undoubtedly the Fat Lady could sing, but I don't recall it happening. As long as we are on the subject, does anyone find it odd that the Fat Lady has never been identified? Every other portrait and statue in the school seems to be know by and refered to by name, but in five books with the Fat Lady having a speaking role in every one of them, she has yet to be identified, even thought much more obscure, even extremely obscure statues and prortraits have been indentified. Wouldn't it be odd if her last name turned out to be Potter? Now I'm sure people will reply that if she was a Potter, Harry would have seen her in the Mirror of Erised, but I suspect in the Mirror people were placed by generations. The youngest people in the from the successive generations lined up behind Lily and James. The Fat Lady in Pink could be 2 generations back, and maybe she wasn't wearing pink. I admit that there is nothing to support this, and no real need for it in the books. I just thought it would be a cool minor secondary insignificant plot twist for Harry to find out he was related. On the other hand... What's up with that? Why does such a promenent portrait remain unnamed? Just a thought. Not necessarily a productive one, but a thought none the less. bboy_mn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:36:52 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:36:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: > True, but the placement of "Hermione looked simply furious..." > comes after the Ron kiss. If JKR had wanted to indicate that she was > furious about the Harry kiss, or just the kissing in general, > wouldn't it have made more sense to place the line earlier? Maybe add > a little to it to make it clearer that that's what she was furious > about? GEO:Haven't you thought the whole purpose of that line was to muddy the waters for the shippers. If she clarified the thing then she would have given away her hand. If anything the R/H and H/H ships all hinge on Hermione's feelings on that matter. > And if her "dangerously" flashing eyes are any indication, she > was pretty pissed about it. GEO:Possibly because Ron can't believe that a bookworm like Hermione would be able to get a date. > It's the strength of Hermione's emotions > in these exchanges with Ron that seem suggestive to me. If she's not > remotely interested in him, why would she care so much that it had > taken him so long to "spot" that she's a girl? GEO: As others have noted Ron and Harry are the only close friends that she has and make up two thirds of the trio. Even if she isn't interested in him she would be at least be pissed off that it took him three and a half years to notice that she was a girl considering that she has spent so much time with them > I'm trying, but I can't really think of any evidence to suggest > that they're "perceptive of this kind of stuff." The two of them are > so very involved with they're own "stuff" that I doubt they'd notice > any sparks developing between people around them. Do they even date? > We know Fred took Angelina to the Yule Ball, but were they in a > relationship afterwards? Not that we heard of. I'm beginning to > suspect that the Weasley boys, as a rule, are "late bloomers" when it > comes to the world of love and dating. GEO: However they are perceptive. Well perceptive enough to pick up that something was going on with Percy in CoS even though they didn't have extendable ears or their apparition ability and the fact that Percy had his own owl and isolated himself from the other. > And we have no evidence that Viktor's a "fighter of evils." GEO: I never said he was, but that he was a dark and certainly brooding quidditch seeker like Harry. > Lockhart was a superficial, school-girl crush on > a celebrity GEO: Whose main claim to fame was fighting the dark forces just like Harry. > My personal > feeling is that the frown was showing concern, due to her insight > into Cho's fragile emotional state. GEO: It still wouldn't explain her impatience in wanting to know if Harry was going to go out with her(Cho) and her(Hermione) attempt subsequently at maintaining a more distant demeanor indicates to me at least that she had a more emotional connection in the business than we had previously thought. > Right. It could also be the basis for a relationship later in > life between Hermione and Ron. GEO: Doubt it. If anything the Hermione and Ron relationship is built more on the traditional way which is giving perfume and being jealous kind of thing with all their mutual spats. > Yes, because we're all completely threatened basketcases who > can't stand the idea of "our" men having friendships with women. > Thanks for that generalization. I'll be sure to let all my friends > who are self-assured and secure in their relationships know that > they're doing it wrong. GEO: Either way the same would also occur vice versa. I doubt any permanent love interest of hers would take it very well that she was more devoted to her best male friend than to them. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:50:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:50:31 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair = Mind Protection In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deb" wrote: >>> Snape has greasy hair, ... And when Snape took memories out of his head, there were cobweb-like strands coming out, too. This did not happen when Dumbledore put his memories into the Pensive. <<< bboy_mn: Yes, it did (re: cobweb-like strands). When Dumbledore pulls thoughts from his mind, they come out as thin silvery strands, and alternate description could very easily be silvery cobweb-like strands. I think that 'cobweb-like', if it is in there, refers to a single strand of cobweb silk, not to an entire complex web of spider silk. > > Maybe there is a meaning to the greasy hair, other than just neglect. > ...edited... > > Deb S, aka readzalot, Canada bboy_mn: I am commiting a cardinal sin of HP group posting; I'm posting to a thread that I haven't read (don't often read Snape threads), so list-elves, call Filch and sign the whipping forms, I'm ready to take my punishment if this has already been covered. Quite a while back someone (please speak up) had a very interesting theory that Snape's greasy hair was due to a mind protecting potion that Snape puts in his hair to help prevent penetration of his mind. It is sort of an external augmentation to his Occlumency ability, but of course, that theory was presented a long time before we even knew that Occlumency existed. I'm not saying I believe it, but you have to admit, it is a pretty cool idea. Just a thought. bboy_mn From Oboek8 at aol.com Fri Aug 1 21:31:32 2003 From: Oboek8 at aol.com (Oboek8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:31:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] Message-ID: <1e7.e4a4fd2.2c5c3634@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74761 <> And when she tells him > that next time he should invite her first, what she's saying is : it > hurts me that you deny my femininity, please open your eyes and start > acting like you're a boy and I'm a girl. She needs to *please*, she > needs to know she can seduce a guy. She's a teenage girl. > Del > ps : the fact that she's granting so much importance to Ron's > opinion, though, seems to me to indicate that he's got a special > place in her heart. She doesn't care anywhere as much that Harry > doesn't see as a girl...> I agree, and I also think Hermione is trying to prove a point. The boys take her for granted and think she will always be there for them. She doesn't want to be their "second choice" and even if she doesn't like either of them romantically, she still wants to be treated special and not the "backup date" for Ron and Harry. I think she goes with Viktor to prove that she's wanted by other guys and other guys think she's pretty. I believe she likes Ron, deep down, and cares about his opinion. Ron gets very jealous, and it might just be a "big-brother, protective reaction" right now, but when he gets older, he'll come to realize that he really likes Hermione. I hope they have another Yule Ball in the 6th or 7th book. Maybe Ron can ask her then. Can they only go if they stay for Christmas? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 22:28:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:28:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer - Age=No Cigar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > "ryderrobin" wrote: > > > At the beginning of GoF (in september/october), the twins were > > almost 17. That means at the beginning of OotP, they were almost > > 18. But not 18 yet. So 17 is legal age, since they already had > > their Apparition license in august. > > Yeah :-) ! I *knew* I must be wrong somewhere :-) I'm horribly bad > with ages and numbers. Thanks for putting me straight. > > Del bboy_mn: Close, but no cigar. At the beginning of GoF, Fred and George are 16. ---GoF Am HB Pg 189--- "They can't do that!" said George Weasley, who had not joined the crowd moving toward the door, but was standing up and glaring at Dumbledore. "We're seventeen in April, why can't we have a shot?" ---end quote--- 16 at the beginning of GoF; 17 at the end. 17 at the beginning of OoP; 18 at the end. You can't get a license to apparate until you are 'of age'; seventeen, but that doesn't mean you can't attend Apparation classes. Just like you are able to take drivers education before you get your drivers license. Side note: that means in the next book, they will begin to study Apparation, you can't begin to know how much I am looking forward to that. So, for most of OoP Fred and George are 17, in April of that year, they turn 18. As far as Apparating, the logical conclusion seems to be that they took Apparating classes in 6th year, at the end of which, they took their test, and received their license. Just a thought. bboy_mn From insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 1 22:32:05 2003 From: insanus_scottus at yahoo.co.uk (Scott) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:32:05 -0000 Subject: How does a Pensieve work? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74763 I've been thinking about the Pensieve for a while, but, after reading the fabulous chatscript w/ Heidi from yesterday, I decided to hunker down and flesh out my thoughts. Of course I apoligize if this this elicts cries of "Another post on *that*..." please e-mail me offlist and direct me to the discussion. (I can't keep up on this list, but I did a quick search and I didn't see anything exactly like this.) What Heidi said was (can I quote her answer? I hope so-) "I think he actually removes the memory. Otherwise, Harry would still be able to "access" it - I've wondered, though, if someone could choose to just create a copy, and share that memory with a third party, and if so, wouldn't that be a better tool than even Veritaserum for court proceedings and the like." Forgive me, but this...doesn't make sense. Firstly, I know that people have speculated as to whether the Pensieve in the Occlumency lessons is Dumbledore's or a separate one (and Harry just assumes), but it's not really clear is it? So I sort of think that it *is* Dumbledore's and perhaps there isn't another one, because otherwise, if a memory is erased, and anyone can use one, it would be easy to store any incriminating evidence and thus make a person unable to testify in court, no? Surely the Wizengamot would have restrictions about such things. or the ministry. But what if the Pensieve is something that Dumbledore made for himself, or received from Nicolas Flamel (could its manufacture have something to do with Dragon's blood?). After all, if you were that old you'd need to clear your mind too...clear your mind but not *forget* things by doing it. In GoF Harry witnesses several important trials of Death Eaters etc., and I find it hard to believe that because these memories are in the Pensieve DD has *no* recollection of them. They just seem too important. I wouldn't want to be Dumbledore and not know who's a deatheater and who's not. Besides, how could you remember to put those memories back *in* your mind if you don't remember what the memories were taken *out* to begin with. So perhaps the Pensieve doesn't remove the memories but just acts as an extension of Dumbledore's mind...stretching the memories out and letting him view them more clearly and objectively, but still very much a part of his consciousness. If that is possible, then the question (when looking at OOP) isn't how the pensieve works-- but how it works for *Snape*. I think that when Snape puts memories into the Pensieve before the Occlumency lesson he does remove them; he puts them into Dumbledore's Pensieve and thus Dumbledore's mind. That surely shows MUCH more trust between them than meets the reader's eye (and Harry's). Also how can one leave the Pensieve? Or, at least, how does a third party get out of a memory. Harry has been removed by the person whose memory it is both times that he's ventured into the Pensieve, but if he hadn't how exactly could he get out. Hmmm... Scott! From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 22:47:16 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 15:47:16 -0700 Subject: Does Harry care more for Hermione than Ron? was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <132189073558.20030801154716@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74764 Hi, Friday, August 01, 2003, 2:12:04 AM, Doriane wrote: > As for being more worried about Hermione than about Ron, I'd say that > makes sense : first because as Charlie said, Hermione has already > been badly hurt and might be dying while Ron still seems to be alive > and fighting, but also because he knows that when it comes to > practical situations, Ron usually does better than Hermione and > pretty much doesn't need him (Harry) to come and help. Just something to add (I'm way behind on posts and there were replies to several other people in this, so I'm not quite sure who said what :} ) So, I have one question : where, in canon, does Harry care more about Hermione's injury than Ron's? Sure, he gets Ron to safety and then helps Neville with Hermione, who is *unconscious* and most likely not that easy to carry for an injured age mate (Neville). After that, Harry doesn't seem to waste much thought on Hermione at all, not even in the hospital scene (he doesn't about Ron, either. Just recounts that they both have to stay longer, and having to take a number of potions. No worried thoughts about their injuries possibly having future repercussions. Probably due to Sirius' death, but I still wonder why Harry never seems to worry about such things). I'd be astonished if Harry weren't worried about Hermione when she gets cursed. She looks *dead*. And Harry seems to think it would be his own fault, if she died, which makes him feel worse. Who wants to be the cause of a friend's death? Compare reactions with the boggart scene, where he believes Ron to be dead for a minute. Doesn't sound to me as if he cares any less. I don't think Harry would have just left Ron behind if he had been in Hermione's place. Harder to carry, that's for sure! Sometimes I wonder if that's why the girls are picked as the victims more often ;) Harry appears quite fearful about Ron's condition, when he finds him, Ginny and Luna. He tries to help Ron, when he gets attacked by the brain, and prays Neville will find a way to help Ron, when he has to destract the DEs, before they are all taken out by them. When he realizes, Neville has followed him, he yells at him to go back to Ron. He also asks him about Ron after the cruciatus curse was put on Neville. This doesn't sound as if he cares less about Ron to me or that Harry has unrealized romantic feelings for Hermione. I'd have to see a lot more worry about Hermione bleeding through in his thoughts to see this as a ship argument. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From subrosax at earthlink.net Fri Aug 1 22:47:25 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:47:25 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74765 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frumenta" wrote: > > I can't pretend to remember who said what in this thread but how > about we look at the lessons themselves and Snape's interraction > with Harry, shall we? > > People said that Snape didn't tell Harry what he should do: > > 'And what are you going to do?' Harry asked, eyeing Snape's wand > apprehensively. > 'I am about to attempt to break into your mind,' said Snape > softly. 'We are going to see how well you resist. I have been told > that you have already shown aptitude at resisting the Imperius > Curse. You will find that similar powers are needed for this . . . > brace yourself, now. Legilimens!' > > p.471, UK edition > > Snape is not trying to teach this thing to just anyone, he's > teaching a kid who is able to resist the Imperius curse! No one told > Harry what to do then, he found the strength within himself and did > it! Why must we insist that Snape should do more to "teach" Harry in > the traditional sense of the word? Occlumency is not your typical > subject. He told Harry what to do, on this and on other occasions > and Harry just kept arguing with him and being disrespectful. > > Then we have Snape seeing the first batch of memories of Harry's, > among which a rather embarrassing memory for Harry, Cho's kiss, > which was what prompted him to react. Now, where it comes to Harry's > love life, Snape gleefully read the Prophet article on it in his > entire class in GoF. The rest of the memories are also potentially > embarrassing (cat Hermione? Harry as a Slytherin?) but Snape doesn't > comment on any of them. All he does talk about to let Harry know he > did actually see into his memories is the dog. > > And then we have the second attempt, in which since Harry has failed > to get rid of his emotions, Snape picks up some rather unpleasant > memories including Cedric's death (which seem to upset Snape himself > considering he is "paler than usual" after seeing them). Read the > exchange! (containing the now famous pot calling kettle black speech > of Snape's about weak people that are easily provoked). Harry > challenges Snape every step of the way and Snape simply tells Harry > what to do without punishing him for his insolence. > > In the following lesson, Snape discovers that Harry has still been > having dreams about Voldemort but didn't bother to tell him. Snape > tries to get Harry off the idea that he's special and that it's up > to him to find out what Voldemort is up to. And when Harry tells him > that that's "That's your job, isn't it?" Harry himself realising > that he may have gone too far, Snape simply gives him a straight > answer about it. And then Harry breaks into Snape's memories and > even though Snape is obviously not too happy about that, there is no > petty punishment, on the contrary, Snape tellls him that "this was > certainly an improvement". > > End of this scene and we don't know what may have happened as Harry > is once more disrespectful and basically calls Snape a Death Eater > to his face. > > Well, call me crazy but I saw a definite change for the better in > Snape's manner towards Harry during the lessons. Can I get an Amen?! I do not understand why people keep complaining that Snape didn't try hard enough teaching Harry occlumency! What more was he supposed to do? Hold Harry's hand and give him a lollipop at the end of every lesson? As a teacher, Snape is no barrel of monkeys, but all things considered, I thought he was downright congenial. Sure, Snape hated Harry from the word go, but since then, Harry hasn't done much to endear himself. If Snape can read minds, imagine what he's been seeing in Harry's busy little head for the past five years; "I hate Snape", "Snape is trying to kill me", "check out his greasy hair and yellow teeth", "Snape is a closeted Death Eater", "I hate Potions", and "I think, instead of going to an adult about this problem, I'll just put on this invisibility cloak and break hundreds of school rules." No wonder Snape hates him! Allyson From smoothskier at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 19:08:18 2003 From: smoothskier at yahoo.com (Erin E, Bryant) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 19:08:18 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74766 throughout the book, it is repeated many times that Harry, Ron, and Hermione are too young for OOTP, but after the incident at the MOM, obviously they have all seen many things and have showed their allegiance, also Ginny, Neville, and Luna did the same. Are they going to be aloud to join the OOTP now or not erin From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 1 22:55:06 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 22:55:06 -0000 Subject: Draco and Sirius(Was: A Good Slytherin? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74767 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "RP" wrote: > Sirius apparently, has always hated his family, period. It's not that > he reached a certain age, suddenly woke up to the fact that his > family was evil and decided he should make the moral choice by > severing all ties with them, it was plainly like he said-- he ran off > when he (finally) got the first chance because he just could not > stand the lot of them. Babies are not born hating their families from the cradle, nor does hatred develop in a vacuum. Sirius didn't "always" hate his family, something had to happen to make him feel this way. Sirius himself says that he hated his parents "with their pure-blood mania," and hated his brother for buying into it. I'm sure he didn't suddenly wake up and decide his family was evil. People don't just open their eyes one morning and go, "Hey! Everything I've ever been taught is wrong!" These things happen gradually. My guess is that Sirius began to become disillusioned with his family when he came to Hogwarts and was exposed to new people and viewpoints. By the time he was sixteen he had, indeed, had enough, so he jumps the fence. > If he had any love for his parents and > brother, and if their attitude towards muggle-borns was indeed the > main reason he could not stand them, then he would have tried to > persuade them to change their view. We don't know that he didn't. I suspect there were a lot of ugly political arguments at the Black dinner table. > And if he could not make them > change their prejudice, he would oppose this particular stance of > theirs but still cares for them. Why? If they were as awful as Mrs. Black's portrait indicates, it's perfectly possible that he would've lost all affection for them by the time he grew up. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Anime10473 at msn.com Fri Aug 1 20:14:17 2003 From: Anime10473 at msn.com (Rosa Rodriguez) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:14:17 -0400 Subject: SHIP, FF: Ron/Harry rift? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74768 Joj: >>>>The fact that some people seem to think that Ron is going to pull a Peter Pedigrew has gotten me thinking. I can't, for any reason, see Ron turning evil or joining Voldemort's side. I can however see something coming between Ron and Harry. It would have to be something huge! How about this for an idea? What if Hermione goes to visit Harry on Privet drive over the summer? She does also live in the muggle world. I think she might help him vent some of his grief and the two could become closer. Ron wouldn't like that. He seems to take for granted that when he finally decides to make a move regarding Hermione, that's she'll free and willing. I can see Ron saying, "You knew I was interested in her!" I can also see Harry stepping aside and Hermione being torn. Followed by months and months of angst. Then, what if either Ron or Harry make some big mistake because of their blinding jealousy? What if that mistake gets Hermione killed? What would you have? Mortal enemies, each blaming the other, and Ron hasn't gone over to "the dark side". I'm sure this won't happen. (I like H/H but don't want Hermione to die) I just can see some big wedge coming between them in book 6. The Harry/Ron/Hermione thing reminds me of 'An Ideal Death Eater'. Have you read it? Cause the way you said it -- Ron getting jealous of Harry because he took Hermione away. But, the fic is much worse. Anyways, it's an okay idea, even though I doubt it would happen (hopes it doesn't) and even though I don't like Harry and Hermione together. But maybe a different kind of rift would separate them. It could be Hermione, a family member, pride, or trust (Harry's or Ron's)--whether it be lost because of a girl or because of feelings of betrayal or jealously--- it would probably depend on the situation. Rosa From carlisle32002 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:36:15 2003 From: carlisle32002 at yahoo.com (carlisle32002) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:36:15 -0000 Subject: Harry's dad Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74769 If James Potter is supposed to be a decent guy, why do he and his pals (Lupin, Sirius) torment and pick on Snape during their time at hogwarts? Lily had the decency to tell him to stop. James looked a bit like Malfoy does now. I don't understand. From blym_e at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:39:11 2003 From: blym_e at yahoo.com (blym_e) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:39:11 -0000 Subject: thoughts on the statues in the MoM Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74770 Hello everyone! This is my first post so please bear with me. While I was reading the different posts here in our group, a thought came upon me regarding the statues in the ministry of magic. As we all know, the statues are that of a wizard, a witch, an elf, a goblin, and a centaur. Maybe(this is a big maybe) in the next installment, these five(not the statues but the people they represent) should unite or something to prove a point, that one is as strong as its weakest link. If all of them would not unite for a single cause(to defeat voldemort), all of their individual efforts would only be futile, and might lead to their doom. Apathy and ignorance are but two issues among several being tackled in the series and OOTP has clearly discussed these issues. In addition, I think that this unity among the different races in the WW will be established in Hogwarts as an example to the whole WW, to illustrate what unity and equity can bring about. If they can show what five united beings can do, what more if the races represented by these five were united as well. (I'm not saying that a witch is a different race from that of a wizard but differences between the sexes are also present) We already have four out of the five represented staying at Hogwarts but some of their identities are not yet clear. Firenze is surely the centaur since he has the open-mindedness to be with beings not of his own kind and understand them. The elf might be dobby. The wizard may be Dumbledore or Harry. Don't know who might be the witch though. The only missing piece is the goblin. Will there be a major character in the next book that is a goblin? As I've said before, this is just a thought that I havc. Anyone who wishes to react, please do so. Blym_e From Oboek8 at aol.com Fri Aug 1 21:42:04 2003 From: Oboek8 at aol.com (Oboek8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:42:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summ... Message-ID: <9d.3cb76a9a.2c5c38ac@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74771 In a message dated 8/1/2003 7:24:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, slgazit at sbcglobal.net writes: > > I have a theory that Snape was in love with Lily Potter. The > penseive scene is seen through Snape's filtering. While the > foursome is shown in a very unflattering way, Lily is described > as a very positive person - again from Snape's POV. > If Snape indeed loved her, it > would explain why he hated James even more than he did Sirius > and why he hates Harry so much - not only does Harry look like > the father who married the girl he loved, but in a very real sense > Harry is responsible for Lily's death. If my suspicion is correct > this can also explain why Snape the adult, despite otherwise > hatefull behavious, has never shown any > racism towards muggle-born students - though as a teen he has! > Likewise, this would explain him turning away from > Voldemort - who killed Lily - and turning to DD, who tried to > protect her. > I definitely agree. He must've loved Lily. Everything makes sense that way. Lily, a beautiful girl, showed kindness towards the dorky young Snape, and even though he told Lily to go away after she tried to stop James from tormenting him, he only did this because he was embarrassed in front of the girl he had a crush on. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dominik_reisner at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 21:49:32 2003 From: dominik_reisner at yahoo.com (dominik_reisner) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:49:32 -0000 Subject: the Fat Lady - Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74772 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dublinaaireland" > wrote: > > ... '...it ain't *over* till the fat lady sings!', and it made me > ask the question, does the fat lady in the picture frame sing?? << > bboy_mn: > > Well, undoubtedly the Fat Lady could sing, but I don't recall it > happening. > > As long as we are on the subject, does anyone find it odd that the Fat > Lady has never been identified? That is indeed weird and I am your opinion that the fat lady has some hidden relevance that Harry doesn't know of yet. > Every other portrait and statue in the school seems to be known by > and refered to by name, but in five books with the Fat Lady having a > speaking role in every one of them, she has yet to be identified, even > thought much more obscure, even extremely obscure statues and > prortraits have been indentified. > > Wouldn't it be odd if her last name turned out to be Potter? > Now I'm sure people will reply that if she was a Potter, Harry would > have seen her in the Mirror of Erised, but I suspect in the Mirror > people were placed by generations. The youngest people in the from the > successive generations lined up behind Lily and James. The Fat Lady in > Pink could be 2 generations back, and maybe she wasn't wearing pink. Quite interesting as well, but I am not sure if Harry would have seen her in the mirror if she were an acestor of his, since the mirror was pretty crowded with people and that it would rather display his closer relations and his ancient ancestors. I`m not so sure though "dominik" From arioth at peoplepc.com Fri Aug 1 21:54:20 2003 From: arioth at peoplepc.com (arioth1) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:54:20 -0000 Subject: Marauders Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tallulah_sam" wrote: > Hello! My first post so very sorry if this has been mentioned and > sorted out before but here goes anyway! In PoA why didn't Harry or > Fred and George ever see Peter Pettigrew on the marauders map? Lupin > saw both Peter and Sirius so we know it shows animagi.... any ideas > or theories?? I don't know if this has been discussed either, but I'll give you my thoughts on the matter. I know there is a theory out there somewhere that says you can only see someone /moving/ on the map. Peter as Scabbers was a rather lazy rat and didn't move around much. He would not be seen if he was, say, sleeping. My other thought, there must be tons of names on that map if it shows everyone, wherever they are in the castle and grounds. So if you weren't looking for someone specifically, or that person was not in the area you were scanning, it would be difficult to notice that one name. Do we even know if Harry, Fred, or George would really recognize the name if they saw it? I'm sure Harry wouldn't have until after he started hearing the stories about the night his parents died. Fred and George may not have known the name at all. They were still quite small when all the events took place. Anyway, this turned out rather longer than expected. That's my 1.5 knuts. (I doubt it's worth a full two!) Arioth From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Fri Aug 1 21:58:01 2003 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 21:58:01 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione ,Ron & Ginny[SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74774 > > > 4. Rowling herself said there are clues in her books to many > > things. Anyone who has read OoP will see at the end of the story > how > > Ron wants Harry to get together with Ginny. > > GEO:Doesn't mean that he will. Seems to me, Ron is trying to get > Harry hooked up with Ginny so that he'll eliminate his competition in > regard toward Hermione. If anything I suspect Ron knows or thinks > that there is something between Hermione and Harry. > See, I always read it as Ron wanting Harry to be with Ginny because then Harry would be his REAL brother and not just like a brother. But more so I beleive that Ron enjoyed thinking that Ginny had a crush on Harry would mean that Ginny wouldn't be with anyone since Ron knows that the feelings between he, Harry, and Ginny are not mutual. As for Hermione, JKR obviously (IMHO) wants us to see her as Harry's best friend, along with Ron. I think that her being a girl really has so bearing on their relationship AT ALL. It is almost as if you can go back and read the pages between H/H and substitute a boys name and not have any flow problems whatsoever. You , however, can not do that with R/H pages. Ron and Hermione have some type of tension and yes, this tension is a little muttled with you compare it to his attitute about Ginny having a boyfriend (He reacts almost the same as when Hermione is with Krum) so he could see her like a sister too, but there is definate Girl/Boy tension there that is not exsistent with Harry and Hermione. Trish. From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 1 23:02:50 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:02:50 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's dad References: Message-ID: <3F2AF19A.000001.60749@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 74775 carlisle32002 If James Potter is supposed to be a decent guy, why do he and his pals (Lupin, Sirius) torment and pick on Snape during their time at hogwarts? Lily had the decency to tell him to stop. James looked a bit like Malfoy does now. I don't understand. Me - Then you've clearly never met a 15 year old boy. James and Sirius were popular, good looking, sporting heroes (well James was anyway, not sure about Sirius' quidditch prowess) hence they picked on the unpopular kids. Is it a nice thing to do? No of course it isn't, but teenagers are like that. At some point after the memory we see they presumably grew up (personally I think it was the Shack Incident that did it) K From eberte at vaeye.com Fri Aug 1 23:39:35 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:39:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP: What's the attraction? Was: SHIP: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74776 It is really interesting how *strongly* people defend their own personal SHIPS. It makes me wonder why two people can read the same words and come up with almost totally opposite conclusions. Magic (or ambiguity) of the words or perhaps previous emotional baggage of the reader? Challenge to all you vehement SHIPPERS! Using *canon* (and preferably examples from the books), explain why a girl like Hermione would be interested in a boy like Ron (or Harry or Draco etc. Equal Opportunity SHIPPING here!) Examples: Ron -- Loyalty Hermione likes Ron because he is a true and loyal friend and she values that quality (in OoP, she is moved and impressed by Ron's reaction to Percy's letter telling Ron to dump Harry as a friend). Ron -- Good looking Not much in canon to support this one. Perhaps not important to Hermione. Ron -- Sense of humor Ron's joke on the train about Crabbe (or was it Goyle?) being a baboon's backside. Light-hearted irreverent approach to most everything (calls underclassmen "cheeky little snotrags", "midgets" etc.) Hermione is not known for her sense of humor, but perhaps this appeals to her (opposites attract). Ron -- Seems to have a crush on her Ron gets jealous of Krum (and Harry in the scene about Harry being a "bad kisser" in OoP). Someone liking *you* may be a big turn-on to a 15 year old girl. Harry -- Tragic hero thing Canon is loaded with examples. Very attractive to a young girl, I would think. Harry -- Quiddich star Probably not a negative in Hermione's book, but I imagine that this trait is not as important to her as it might be to some of the other girls. Etc. Elle (who is actually an H/H SHIPPER but is trying to be fair here-- hope this is not too subjective and OT, but I am interested in *why* people think the way they think about their SHIPS) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 23:55:18 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:55:18 -0000 Subject: Rambling thoughts on the Pensieve. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74777 My theory, and I have many, both good and bad, regarding the operation of the Pensieve are outlined below. How does a Pensieve work? Does you body physically travel into the memory stored in the Pensieve? Once place in the Pensieve, is that memory gone from your mind? If it is gone from your mind, then how can you ever retrieve it from the Pensieve if you don't even remember that it exists? Stay tuned for answers to all the questions and more. Where to begin...? Storing Memories in the Pensieve- Let say I put a memory in the Pensieve, and it has therefore been removed from my mind. How can I get it back if I can't remember it? I mean, if I can't remember it, it would seem that I would have no knowledge that the memory ever existed. Given that, how could I ever recall it from the Pensieve? The only way I can think of would be to rummage though the stored thoughts randomly until you stumble across something that seemed important. Seems like a good storage method, but a lousy retrieval method. Even if a thought is literally removed from your mind and stored in the Pensieve, that doesn't mean you forget it. A memory is much more that a single isolated event. There are the memories leading up to the event, there are the memories related to and following the event, there are also the times when you pondered the memories; in other word, memories of remembering the original event. The point is that even if you hide the details of a memorable event in the pensieve, you still retain enough secondary information, to organize and recall thoughts from the pensieve. You could ask, if you have memories of remembering the event wouldn't that in essense be the same memory and therefore need to be removed? These memories of remembering would be much deeper in you mind, they would also be more fragmented and cluttered with the analysis you were engaged in at the time. That would cloud and confuse these secondary memories and make them much harder to access and interpret. Also, keep in mind that many of our memories are not the original memory, but us remembering the last time we thought of the event. Because of this successive layering of memory upon memory, the events get a little distorted and frequently indealized. We remember the old neighborhood as a quiet street lined with stately elm trees, but when we go back to visit it, the stately elms are really scraggly box elder trees. The point...? These secondary memories are not that uses full to someone trying to extract information from your mind, but they are sufficient to allow the owner, to organize and recall events from the Pensieve. What are the functional dynamics of Pensieve's operation? Despite what we see when Harry is in a pensieve memory, I do not believe that a person's body leaves the room and travels to the memory. It is a person's sense of self, or self-awareness that travels into the pensieve and manifests itself to the viewer as his physical body. OoP when Harry is in the OWL test that James, Lily, Sirius, Remus, and Snape are attending, the scene strongly implies that Harry doesn't have physical form. When he sees his father, he rushes across the room and apparently moves through solid objects. That hints that Harry's perceieved body is really intangible. When you walk into a room in which someone is using a pensieve in the same manner as Harry used the pensieve, you will see that person standing there staring blankly into the pensieve. Staring 'blankly' because their self-awareness is busy in the pensieve, and their mind preoccupied with the events they are viewing. When Dumbledore appears to join Harry in the pensieve, it is really the physical Dumbledore putting his hand on the physical Harry's shoulder. When that happens, Dumbledore's self-awareness or sense of self has joined Harry's, but without leaving Dumbledore's body the way Harry's has. When Harry turns to face the second Dumbledore in the Pensieve memory, it is really Harry's physical body turning to face the physical Dumbledore. When Harry perceives himself to be flying out of the pensieve, it is really the physical Dumbledore pulling the physical Harry away from the pensieve. As he does this, Harry sense of self that is occupied in the pensieve memory comes rushing back into Harry's body. Can't prove that but I see a certain logical continuity in an intangible sense of self joining an intangilble memory, as opposed to some combination of the joining of tangible and intangible. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From laxer26 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 23:57:08 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Order, any new members? (was The Order of the Pheonix) Message-ID: <20030801235708.99733.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74778 Erin said throughout the book, it is repeated many times that Harry, Ron, and Hermione are too young for OOTP, but after the incident at the MOM, obviously they have all seen many things and have showed their allegiance, also Ginny, Neville, and Luna did the same. Are they going to be aloud to join the OOTP now or not. Laxer: My Vote on this issue is no. Thee is no real reason to bring any of them in except Harry. There is nothing that any of them can really bring to the group. They cant spy on anyone, and they will have school responsibilities for most of the year. The only thing usefull is keep DA going, and it is safer for the Order if the groups are kept separate, simmilar to "cells" in spy operations. laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From laxer26 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 23:57:15 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 16:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Order, any new members? (was The Order of the Pheonix) Message-ID: <20030801235715.99746.qmail@web13707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74779 Erin said throughout the book, it is repeated many times that Harry, Ron, and Hermione are too young for OOTP, but after the incident at the MOM, obviously they have all seen many things and have showed their allegiance, also Ginny, Neville, and Luna did the same. Are they going to be aloud to join the OOTP now or not. Laxer: My Vote on this issue is no. Thee is no real reason to bring any of them in except Harry. There is nothing that any of them can really bring to the group. They cant spy on anyone, and they will have school responsibilities for most of the year. The only thing usefull is keep DA going, and it is safer for the Order if the groups are kept separate, simmilar to "cells" in spy operations. laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 00:00:45 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:00:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: What's the attraction? Was: SHIP: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <40193472378.20030801170045@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74780 Hi, Friday, August 01, 2003, 4:39:35 PM, ellejir wrote: > Challenge to all you vehement SHIPPERS! > Using *canon* (and preferably examples from the books), explain why a > girl like Hermione would be interested in a boy like Ron (or Harry or > Draco etc. Equal Opportunity SHIPPING here!) I don't consider myself a "vehement" shipper, but I enjoy talking about it when it comes to the trio . Ron- loves quibbling with Hermione and I see her as liking to have a good verbal fencing match, too. Ron never fails to respond to her, and Hermione starts these kinds of exchanges many times, too. He also always defends Hermione, and is starting to show his appreciation for her intelligence (and/or photographic memory) more and more, which she seems to like. Harry- I see Harry and his situation as almost a challenge to Hermione. She loves researching and learning, and helping Harry gives a an endless supply of subjects. She does appear to enjoy helping other people (in a bossy sort of way). Neville is another example. As long as Harry needs help, Hermione will be interested (though I'm not sure if it's romantic interest) ;) I also don't think romantic interest has much to do with being earned or deserved. Many H/H shipper seem to wonder what a girl could see in Ron, especially compared to Harry. But while Harry has the tragic hero thing going for him, he may not be especially easy to live with, or be great at having engaging conversations. His whole life is governed by LV, in a way, and we don't know what he will be like without this quest after, hopefully, defeating and surviving LV. > Elle (who is actually an H/H SHIPPER but is trying to be fair here It was obvious straight away :) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 00:01:08 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:01:08 -0000 Subject: the Fat Lady - Name (Minor Correction) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > As long as we are on the subject, does anyone find it odd that the > Fat Lady has never been identified? > > ...edited... > > The Fat Lady in Pink could be *** 2 *** generations back, and maybe she wasn't wearing pink. > > ...edited... > > bboy_mn *** That should read, "The Fat Lady could be 20 generations back,...". Sorry. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 00:09:13 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:09:13 -0000 Subject: Marauders Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tallulah_sam" wrote: > In PoA why didn't Harry or Fred and George ever see Peter Pettigrew on > the marauders map? Lupin saw both Peter and Sirius so we know it shows > animagi.... any ideas or theories?? > > Tallulah bboy_mn: Just discussed this in an unrelated thread. See- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74588 I will add that we don't know that Fred and George didn't see Peter. However, if they saw him, we must remember that they say the name in the context of the school. They would have no reason to make the connection, and no reason to think he wasn't just some random student. Also, remember there are blank spots on the map. Lupin couldn't see Harry, Ron, and Hermione inside Hagrid's hut. Harry didn't see himself on the map until he stepped out of the classroom and into the hall. If the common rooms and dorms are not a blank spot, then they are a hopelessly crowded jumble of overlapping names. Hope that helps. bboy_mn From DMCourt11 at cs.com Sat Aug 2 00:20:40 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:20:40 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: <20030801202826.85827.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > Huge brain fart, don't know if we know this, but did Snape have > siblings? If ever there was a reason for a man to grow up bitter > and crotchety, it's having renegade older sisters who like doing > makeovers on unsuspecting little brothers. > > Lisa G, who only recently disclosed to the 15yr old brother that > there are pictures of him as a two year old, dressed in drag (I > always called him Sarah) As an only child I might not be qualified to judge this, but I got the feeling when reading about the memories that the girl laughing while the boy (Snape) rode the bucking broomstick could have been an older sister. I can picture her saying "Sure, I'll help Sevvie practice his flying," waiting for mommy Snape to go in, throwing a quick curse on the broom when nobody's looking, and laughing her head off when he tried to get on. Donna, who was full of good ideas but had no one to try them on From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 00:39:09 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:39:09 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: Oh, how different things could have been for poor Severus if > Frauelein Maria had turned up at his dark doorstep with a guitar! I > bet she would have fixed him up with some "play robes" made out of > old drapes, and taken him out for a gambol in the countryside. There > wouldn't have been a fly situation in the house either, for no proper > Austrian would abide that level of unsanitation!! > I dunno, If that had happened to ME I'd have probably ended up just like Snape is like now. Maybe that IS what happened. EW! EW EW EW!!!!!! Given the choice of NO Frolicking and Frolicking ala Fraulein Maria I'd have to go the No Frolicking route! Although you do make a valid point about the flies.... Melpomene who knows there is a happy medium between those two extremes From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 01:00:59 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:00:59 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > Oh, how different things could have been for poor Severus if > > Frauelein Maria had turned up at his dark doorstep with a guitar! I > > bet she would have fixed him up with some "play robes" made out of > > old drapes, and taken him out for a gambol in the countryside. > There > > wouldn't have been a fly situation in the house either, for no > proper > > Austrian would abide that level of unsanitation!! > > > > I dunno, If that had happened to ME I'd have probably ended up just > like Snape is like now. Maybe that IS what happened. EW! > EW EW EW!!!!!! > Given the choice of NO Frolicking and Frolicking ala Fraulein Maria > I'd have to go the No Frolicking route! > > Although you do make a valid point about the flies.... > > Melpomene who knows there is a happy medium between those two extremes Nothing like Julie Andrews and a repertoire of infernal songs to turn an otherwise well-adjusted boy into an angry, self-loathing, crotchety adult with a tendency toward deviant behavior. If I'd had to listen to that, I'd have joined the Death Eaters myself, just to cleanse the palate! I vote for the NO frolicking. Allyson From hieya at hotmail.com Sat Aug 2 01:05:44 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:05:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summer holidays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" > wrote: > > > I disagree. I think it was called the worst for one of two > reason. > > 1. Harry assumed it was thw worst because it was what Snape chose > to > > put in the pensieve. 2. It was the worst memory for Harry to see. > > > > Oh, or it wasn't really his worst experience, but it was one of the > memories that haunts him the most. As in, he's made on uneasy peace > with most of his other memories. > I think it was Snape's worst memory because he called Lily a Mudblood. He probably said it out of embarrassment in front of so many students (who would have laughed at him even more for being saved by a girl, when he is supposed to be a tough Slytherin). I suspect that he regretted his actions later. Who knows? He might have even apologized to her, but still regretted that she didn't think he was as good as James. This particular scene reveals that James, in spite of his so-called aversion to the Dark Arts, is better at dueling than Snape. I don't think Snape hates Muggle-borns, because he has shown more animosity towards Harry and Neville (a coincidence? I think not) than Hermione or Dean. I think, as a fifteen-year old kid caught in an embarrassing situation, he said something in an attempt to save face. (If we can forgive that snotty toe-rag James, we can forgive poor Severus). On a related note, I think Snape is mean to Harry and Neville because they are the Prophecy Boys and V-mort's potential killers. As a posing DE in a room full of Slytherins, Snape must be mean to these two. greatlit2003 From hieya at hotmail.com Sat Aug 2 01:08:50 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:08:50 -0000 Subject: Is Snape related to Aragog? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74787 In the Pensieve, Snape is described as walking like a spider. Could he be an Animagus? (I know this sounds ridiculous, but I just wondered if anyone has seen any other clues that suggest that Snape might have connections to the spiders? I ask this because Aragog is supposed to return in Book 6 or 7, and Snape will undoubtedly have important roles too) greatlit2003 From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 01:10:18 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:10:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: >>>GEO:Haven't you thought the whole purpose of that line was to muddy the waters for the shippers. If she clarified the thing then she would have given away her hand. If anything the R/H and H/H ships all hinge on Hermione's feelings on that matter.<<< Me: Of course I've thought that. But, as I think my post indicated, *I* don't see the waters as being muddied. Fleur thanks and kisses Harry, then turns and does the same to Ron. THEN we hear that Hermione looks furious. As far as I'm concerned, she's pissed about the Ron kiss. No mud. Also, while JKR may not be giving away her hand in that paragraph, what is she doing with interview comments suggesting that the tension is between Ron and Hermione, in response to a question about Hermione and Harry getting involved? >>>GEO: However they are perceptive. Well perceptive enough to pick up that something was going on with Percy in CoS even though they didn't have extendable ears or their apparition ability and the fact that Percy had his own owl and isolated himself from the other.<<< Me: I must confess, I've lent out my books and therefore can't reference them, but did F&G suspect that Percy's "issue" had anything to do with a girl? They noted that he was withdrawn, that he was keeping something from them, but I don't think either of them deduced that he had a girlfriend. With regard to Hermione and Ron, my guess is that they're "perceptive" enough to note the arguing, but completely ignorant of any underlying sexual tension. >>>GEO: I never said he was, but that he was a dark and certainly brooding quidditch seeker like Harry.<<< Me: You used Krum and Lockhart as examples of the kind of guys Hermione goes for. I was merely pointing out that some of their qualities are in fact contrary to each other, which would contradict the very notion of her having a "type." I wasn't arguing that they share some common attributes with Harry. They certainly do. >>>GEO: It still wouldn't explain her impatience in wanting to know if Harry was going to go out with her(Cho) and her(Hermione) attempt subsequently at maintaining a more distant demeanor indicates to me at least that she had a more emotional connection in the business than we had previously thought.<<< Me: Hermione could have been impatient because Harry either hadn't understood or was stalling to answer her question ("Are you going to see her again?"). Her distant demeanor indicates an emotional connection? You do realize how contradictory that sounds, right? And that it could just as easily be argued that she, being an intellectually-ruled (as opposed to emotionally-ruled) person in general, has a tendency to try to look at and explain things in an orderly, businesslike fashion? Because that's how I saw her in the conversations about Cho. Clearly, we'll have to agree to disagree here. >>>GEO: Doubt it. If anything the Hermione and Ron relationship is built more on the traditional way which is giving perfume and being jealous kind of thing with all their mutual spats.<<< Me: I don't understand your argument or how it's supposed to refute my point. A good friendship can the basis for a relationship. Harry and Hermione are friends. Ron and Hermione are friends. Therefore, either of these pairings could ultimately result in a friendship- based relationship. But because Ron gets jealous and gave Hermione perfume and they have mutual spats they can't have a friendship-based relationship? I think my brain just exploded. >>>GEO: Either way the same would also occur vice versa.<<< Me: Wow. And here I thought there might be a bit of acknowledgement that not all people are threatened by their partners' having friends of the opposite sex. Instead, it turns out that apparently we're *all* completely threatened and insecure. Nice. Again, I strongly disagree with that assertion. >>>GEO: I doubt any permanent love interest of hers would take it very well that she was more devoted to her best male friend than to them.<<< Me: You never said anything about being more devoted to anyone. You were simply talking about being a confidante and advisor. And basically supporting a H/H ship by suggesting that no one else will be able to handle their friendship, so they may as well be with each other. That is so romantic. Of course, there's a simple solution to the dilemma you describe. Harry and Hermione could get involved with other friends who are already well aware of (and not threatened by) their friendship. Like...I don't know...Ron and Ginny, maybe? CM, who actually isn't a Ha/G shipper, but felt like throwing that in. From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Sat Aug 2 01:04:54 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:04:54 -0500 Subject: Dobby Vs. Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74789 And no, this isn't referencing the Celebrity Deathmatch that my brothers (and a fair number of other people) want to see. ^_^; I'm sitting here idling over various fic points and reading e-mails as they come in and such, and this sudden thought occurs to me. People like to get really pissed off at Kreacher because of how he behaves toward Sirius, Harry and their friends, and how he stays loyal to his family by trying to save all of the Black family things that Sirius and Molly are trying to throw out. He disappears from sight whenever someone actually WANTS to find him, avoids being useful around the house, badmouths houseguests and is an all-around "anti-house elf". Now, on the other hand, while Dobby's Jar-Jar Binks impression gets irritating after a while, people generally are ok with him. He's worshipful toward Harry, acts like wizards/witches who give him things, especially clothes, are the greatest thing since sliced bread, etc. He cleans the Gryffindor Common Room by himself when Hermione insults the others by leaving the hats around. He helps Harry out with the Triwizard Task by stealing the gillyweed from Snape's stores. While he praises his freedom, he is seemingly the "ideal house elf". But is he? In a lot of respects, I think Dobby and Kreacher are two sides of the same coin, because they are loyal to two sides of the same coin. Think about when Dobby was a servant to the Malfoys. He jetted off when he felt necessary to "warn" Harry of Malfoy's intentions. Chances are he wasn't getting much housework done when he was jumping on Harry's bed at Privet Drive, or dumping a pudding on the Dursley's houseguests. He made every attempt at thwarting his family's plans, and even though he 'punished' himself for it, he was always back to do it again later. In the end, he went along with Harry's ploy to get him a sock, and thus have his freedom - definite loyalty to one's family there. And while some will argue, "Well yes, but Dobby had good reason, the Malfoy's were evil and all, and Sirius and the others were good, so Kreacher had no reason..." it still is a moot point. The Hogwarts house elves seem to take care of the Slytherin dungeons and the Slytherin table just fine, despite how many "evil" kids are in that house. They stopped cleaning the Gryffindor Common Room because of Hermione's hats - if they had taken them, they would have been freed, thus breaking the vow of loyalty to serve at Hogwarts. Certainly Dumbledore probably wouldn't have cared, he'd have put them on the payroll for "nothing" so that they could stay, but THEY would know. The house elves themselves would know that they were free, and chances are a lot of them would have ended up like Winky. I think Dobby and Kreacher are BOTH "anti-house elves" - they just go about it in different manners, because each is exhibiting their own preferences and attitudes toward those around them, rather than being faithful, un-biased servants. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yswahl at stis.net Sat Aug 2 01:39:21 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:39:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP, FF: Ron/Harry rift? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74790 (I like H/H but don't want Hermione to die) I just can see some big wedge coming between them in book 6. Rosa JKR seems to have placed several wedges between them already in OOP without needing to physically harm Hermione or Ron at all. The first and most significant wedge is Ron becoming prefect instead of Harry. Hermione's glee when she sees Harry holding the badge and thinking that it was Harry that became the prefect was brilliantly shown by JKR in her shrieking reaction and the simple line "Me too, Harry, me too!" The sheer joy she expresses in those five words is amazing. She is VERY disappointed when she finds out that it is Ron instead of Harry. In addition, by Harry not becoming prefect, Ron and Hermione are forced to spend more time together and are separated from Harry on the train. An additional development resulting from the prefect selection is Harry becoming closer to Ginny, Neville and eventually Luna. We'll see... Samnanya From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 02:10:21 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 02:10:21 -0000 Subject: Kreacher & House-Elf Relocation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" wrote: > Snapesmate: > > The house elves are treated as property, as a slave, but most house > elves we have been introduced to WANT to belong to a family. Dobby > was a bit of a one of, because he wanted to be free and paid for his > work. bboy_mn: First House-Elves as property, I think you are right on this one, once an elf has made a commitment, they and their successive generation are 'reguarded' as the property of the family House (with a capital 'H'). I put 'reguarded' in single quotes because I think that Elves are reguarded, treated, and traded as property, but I have my own theory that there is really no legal precident for true ownership. Basically, my theory is that the only thing binding elves is elfish honor. > Snapesmate: > I took house elf to mean an elf that belonged to a family, > that served around the family home. ...edited... > bboy_mn: Confusing issue, this one. On one hand, an elf is loyal to the Noble House of Black, all of them; but is only bound to the direct patriarchal decendancy of the Noble House of Black. And I do believe it is the House of Black that they are bound to, not the home of Black. As long as their are direct patriarchal decendance, the ownership never travels sideways. That is, it's never passed from father to son to cousin when there is another son or son of a son available. But the Noble House of Black has ended; so now what? Let's us assume for the moment that Kreacher becomes a free agent. None of the remaining Black relatives want him, so he is on his own. Well, theew is the Ministry of Magic's House-Elf Relocation office located in the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures. I assume free agent elves can come here for reassignment to family Houses looking for an elf. But I suspect that elves don't trust the Ministry very much. Winky seemed to think it would be aweful if Dobby got mixed up with the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures like some common goblin. So I suspect that most of the re-hiring of elves is done through networking within the house-elf community. > Snapesmate: > I am curious as to how Hogwarts' house elves came to be there. > ...edited... bboy_mn: First, it's possible that many of the Hogwarts house-elves have been working at Hogwarts through many successsive generations. Other may have been dismissed/freed house-elves like Dobby and Winky. Others may have come from elves that became free agents when their family line died out. Also, at one time, I suspect there was a lucrative trade in house-elves. They were essentially captured and sold as mechandise on the open market. > Snapesmate: > Anyway, back to Kreacher... I was thinking he has probably done all > the damage he can do, unless he IS kept at Grimmauld Place AND the > OoTP continue to use the house. What about you all? > > Lynne... bboy_mn: If Kreacher were a normal house-elf, I suspect there wouldn't be a problem, they could just get him re-assigned to a new home. But Kreacher has a psychotically deranged loyalty to the Black's, and as much as he has picked up the hatred and prejudices of his masters, I don't think he is capable of functioning outside the Black family. For that matter, he is only marginally able to function inside the Black family. I can't explain why, I certainly have no proof, but I think Kreacher has 'passed beyond the veil'. Exactly how I'm not sure, but one theory is that having lost his only reason for existing, lost his only functional purpose in life which was to serve the Black family, he no longer has a reason to live. So, the late house-elf Kreacher; dead by his own hand. A grim thought, but a thought none the less. bboy_mn From watsola79 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 02:30:59 2003 From: watsola79 at yahoo.com (watsola79) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 02:30:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's Summer - Age=No Cigar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > > "ryderrobin" wrote: > > > > > At the beginning of GoF (in september/october), the twins were > > > almost 17. That means at the beginning of OotP, they were almost > > > 18. But not 18 yet. So 17 is legal age, since they already had > > > their Apparition license in august. > > > > Yeah :-) ! I *knew* I must be wrong somewhere :-) I'm horribly bad > > with ages and numbers. Thanks for putting me straight. > > > > Del > > There is canon for this. At the Wizengamot trial, Fudge explicitly states (forgive me, I don't have my book in front of me) that the legal age for performing magic is 17. --Lana Lovegood From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 03:03:12 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 03:03:12 -0000 Subject: Why Potter house was destroyed 15 years ago In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74793 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" > wrote: > > As previously posted, I have been converted to the theory that > James > > Potter and Lupin had some sort of switching spell thing happening > the > > night the Potter's died. The more I gave it some thought, it has > > helped explain some things never answered from that fateful evening. > > > > What if, not intentionally, but just by chance, Potter and Lupin > were > > practicing Switching Spells. Just as they had helped each other > > learn to be Animagi, perhaps they regularly helped each other with > > NEWT level magic and beyond. For some reason they chose to work on > > Switching spells that evening and switched. > > > > Before anything could be done about it, Peter and Voldemort were > upon > > them and all heck broke loose. Lupin (as James) was killed and > James > > (as Lupin) was incapacitated, restrained, stunned, whatever. Lily > > was killed, then AK rebounded from Harry and Voldemort was > > disembodied. > > > > At this point Pettigrew transformed and ran off. The house was > still > > in order (because AK is precise and does no collateral damage). > > Lupin comes to and finds baby Harry. Not knowing what has become > of > > V. and Peter he immediately owls Dumbledore (or other order member) > > and then waits for assistance. But, oh no! The full moon shines > > through the windows, and he starts to transform. Since he is James > > he does not know how to handle it, he cannot control himself. He > > drops Harry and becomes wild/violent. He literally destroys the > > houseduring his transformation, then runs off knowing he may harm > > Harry. > > > > Knowing he would be a threat to baby Harry, he waited to return > until > > daylight, along with Dumbledore, Hagrid, etc. Not knowing what > > exactly has happened to V. and knowing that angry death eaters may > be > > looking for him, it is decided that he must go into hiding. Harry > > because of his mother's protection and "old magic" must go to "her" > > family. > > > > This could explain the destroyed house and also the delay of > several > > hours before getting Harry to the Dursleys. > > > > Just my thoughts-those of you who regularly ridicule and or hate > > the "Switch" theory-please be kind and gentle while you crush me! > > > > Atropos Gryffin > > > Good heavens! No! I, for one, never ridicule or hate theories (I am > however, thoroughly frustrated by some of them, though). > > Very interesting! > > Frankly, I'm new to the "canon" approach and haven't done as much > homework as most on this board, however, of all of the theories that > are tossed around in here, this one seems quite plausible. I've > always had a sneaky suspicion that one or both of Harry's parents > weren't really dead. Your scenario is one that makes this entirely > possible. > > The scene in the graveyard(Book 4) where Harry's parents come out of > LV's wand was either mistakenly written or another clue left by JKR. > Harry's mother came out of the wand before his father, when the order > was to have been most recent to last killed. Exactly how this fits in > I can't say, but if it wasn't a mistake by JKR, I believe it does fit > in with your theory, somehow. > > I'm not thoroughly versed in Switching Spells, can they be reversed > when the other person is dead? I can see the value in not switching > while LV is around, but if he's defeated (and Harry's still alive, > which I firmly believe will happen), could the spell be reversed by > someone else...say...Dumbledore??? > > Thanks for posing such an interesting thought. > > madeyesgal I would "snip" this a little but, not sure that would relate my point, 1st of which is that Lupin and James could not have switched. Because, if Lupin died because he looked like James, and James lived but now lives as Lupin, he would have told Dumbledore that Sirius was not the Secret Keeper that Peter was. James, in the form of Lupin would be well aware of who his own Secret Keeper was, not to shoot down anyone's theory. It's a nice thought though. Secondly, it was already verified, through Harry and the dementor that his dad died first and then his mother. Which when coming out of the wand would indeed make Lily come out first followed by James. And third, if Lupin had died in James' place, Lupin would have came out of the wand, shadows are of who they belong to not of someone "pretendig" to be them. So not that it's not a bad idea or thought, I truly would love to see Harry's parents alive. But it was Harry that Voldemort was after to begin with, and in order to get to Harry he had to kill Harry's parents. I don't like it any more then the next person. but these are the facts. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 03:19:47 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 03:19:47 -0000 Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" > wrote: > > Ariadne asked: > > > > > "I'm wondering about the Slytherin who could see the thestrals > with > > > Harry and Neville--who is he, why could he see them, and will > this > > > be important for the future?" > > > > "Wendy St John" answered: > > > > > I think it's Blaise Zabini, who got sorted into Slytherin in > > > Harry's first year. > > > > I, Del, say : > > > > What about Nott Jr ? Wasn't s/he sorted in Slytherin that same > year > > too ? Could be another House/year, though, I don't have my books > with > > me. > > We saw Theodore Nott later in the book. If he was the one that had > seen the thestrals then I think Harry would have thought about it > and we'd know. > > bibphile my reply: I missed this one, but after a moments thought, the sorting hat said it was to divide them, and from what I've seen It has divided them equally, meaning 5 boys, and what 5 girls, we usually only hear about Hermoine. And as the slytherin boys were sorted, why is it that only three of them seem important until now, In that class, I thought it was Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy from Slytherin, so it has to be Grabbe or Goyle, and who would they have witnessed the death of? This seems very important now that I see it this way! Lori From snapesmate at hotmail.com Sat Aug 2 03:27:51 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 03:27:51 -0000 Subject: Kreacher & House-Elf Relocation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74795 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > I can't explain why, I certainly have no proof, but I think Kreacher > has 'passed beyond the veil'. Exactly how I'm not sure, but one theory is that having lost his only reason for existing, lost his only > functional purpose in life which was to serve the Black family, he no longer has a reason to live. So, the late house-elf Kreacher; dead by his own hand. A grim thought, but a thought none the less. > > bboy_mn Not such a grim thought really. LOL! That sure would solve the problem of what to do with Kreacher. You are correct, he IS definatley mentally ill. I also wonder if he will play any role in helping the death eaters that were arrested at the MoM that night (particularly Lucius, who is married to Narcissa) to escape from Azkaban. All this wondering! I wish we would get books 6 and 7 at the same time, LOL! Patience is NOT one of my long suits! Lynne From random832 at rcbooks.org Sat Aug 2 03:08:48 2003 From: random832 at rcbooks.org (Random) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:08:48 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74796 On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 09:08 AM, severusbook4 wrote: > Don't you think the werewolf reference is off base on this one? > Werewolves will eat you if given the chance and should be feared. however, they won't conspire to arrange for someone else to kill you... neither in human form, as is self-evident, nor in wolf form for lack of sufficient cleverness. > the werewolf reference is just to cement Harry's > defence or disliking of him so he wouldn't trust him and let his > guard down as they had done. exactly... do you think it's _acceptable_ to use a racial slur to "cement" someone else's "defence" against someone who you claim there's another perfectly good reason to? --Random832 From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 03:39:54 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 03:39:54 -0000 Subject: And I thought I had it figured. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74797 Well as I sat tonight and was taking my time reading the post, responding here and there, just relaxing a thought popped into my head, (which doesn't happen ofter (lol)). There are some pretty good points made today (yesterday as it's after 12). The wand with Neville, he really needs to get a new one, but why would his gran let him use his dad's wand to begin with, why not get him one to start with. What was so important about that wand? Ginny is more open in this book, or rather, Harry sees more of Ginny in this book then in the last ones, It's not just the meetings, it's all the time. Like she has been accepted into the whole, Harry, Hermoine, Ron relationship (friend not SHIP). Harry has been treated like family by the Weasleys since book one when him and Ron become friends. Everyone knows Harry is famous and why he is famous and he doesn't. He has been in the dark for many years. and in the time being his powers (magic) was not squashed out of him, but made him more magical (IMO) then he would have been growing up in the WW. Dumbledore takes an instant liking to Harry, not when he comes to school but when he places Harry on the doorstep. Seems there's more to Harry then just a Prophecy. Malfoy tries to befriend Harry at first, to get him on his father's side, not just his. and the sorting hat, (now it gets better). Harry was almost placed in Slytherin, Hermoine was almost placed in Ravenclaw, Neville (IMO) should have been in Hufflepuff, and Ron (as with all his family) placed in Gryffindor. Now since we do not know what the hat said to any of them except Harry. Would this not be the hat's way of uniting the four houses? And if it is then how many other students inside the other houses should have been placed or was almost placed into a different house but for their own reasons were placed into the houses that they currently reside. and then we have this boy from Slytherin that can see the Trestals and now we don't know his name. I read an interview tonight of JKR, and she said in it that she has given all the hints that she is going to give. Now for the life of me, I can't think of one thing that is going to happen in book 6, other then a relationship brewing between one of the main characters and I am not going into that one here. Anyone else figure out anythign about what might be coming in book 6 because I am at a complete loss now. LOL and I'm very tired. Lori From miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 03:46:52 2003 From: miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com (Heather Gauen) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:46:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment (slang and stuff)(longish again) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030802034652.73944.qmail@web20416.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74798 Only started following this thread about two posts ago, so sorry if someone already made this argument- I *do* think that Hermione's remark was pretty derogatory- not sure if I'd call it racist (speciesist?) and I truly doubt she meant it in a hurtful way; I just think it was an incredibly stupid comment. severus_book4 > IMOO I think that this is just a remark, not racist > in the least. > She just doen't like horses. I don't own a dog, but > I own a cat, > does this make me racist? No, I just like cats more > than dogs. Of course there's nothing wrong with her not liking horses (don't like them myself), and there's also nothing wrong with this dislike being the reason that she doesn't find Firenze physically attractive. But Firenze ISN'T a horse, and looking somewhat like one doesn't mean anything- would you call a human that you found unattractive a monkey (however accurate the comparison my be)? She could have said, "No I don't find him attractive" and left it at that. Honestly, what bothered me most about it was how hypocritical it was. Here's a girl who goes ballistic anytime someone treats a house elf *the way the house elf WANTS to be treated* (Dobby notwithstanding, of course). Yet she can turn around and say nearly the most insulting thing there is to say about a species so proud that it will kill anyone "arrogant" enough to merely ask for its help? Strange. Perhaps her goal is simply to piss off every non-human on earth :) Just my two knuts :) Heather __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 1 18:00:56 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 19:00:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment References: Message-ID: <010f01c35856$dcc2ede0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74799 From: severusbook4 > Sorry Dawn I didn't mean to offend. <> None taken! <> Centaurs, if I remember correctly, do not want to be aligned with humans but rather to be aligned with beasts, so Hermione doesn't find Firenze, a centaur, as someone to be romantically attracted to. Or am I the one completely off base on this one? If I am, sorry, Hermione is one of my favorite characters and I feel compelled to defend her. > ---- You are right, given a choice between the two camps, centaurs chose not to be Human. In that respect, Beasts are not animals, simply nonhuman. I actually feel that in this scene Hermione is just a little thoughtless (or rather her comment is not properly thought out), and she makes the mistake of labling him an animal rather than as a Beast. Later in the Forest, she says the wrong thing because she carrys on talking before her common sense catches up with her intellect- hardly a new trait! Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Aug 1 23:18:03 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:18:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Respects Harry Now References: Message-ID: <3F2AF52B.9020402@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74800 subrosax99 wrote: > > > Can I get an Amen?! I do not understand why people keep complaining > that Snape didn't try hard enough teaching Harry occlumency! What > more was he supposed to do? Hold Harry's hand and give him a lollipop > at the end of every lesson? As a teacher, Snape is no barrel of > monkeys, but all things considered, I thought he was downright > congenial. > Sure, Snape hated Harry from the word go, but since then, Harry > hasn't done much to endear himself. If Snape can read minds, imagine > what he's been seeing in Harry's busy little head for the past five > years; "I hate Snape", "Snape is trying to kill me", "check out his > greasy hair and yellow teeth", "Snape is a closeted Death Eater", "I > hate Potions", and "I think, instead of going to an adult about this > problem, I'll just put on this invisibility cloak and break hundreds > of school rules." No wonder Snape hates him! > > Allyson > And you barely scratched the surface. Harry has lied to Snape's face about the stolen potion ingredients, even though Harry didn't steal them directly, others stole them for him. Harry, Ron and Hermione knocked Snape, a TEACHER out in the presence of an unstable werewolf. They freed Sirius afterwards, not endearing them to Snape at all. I'm amazed Severus Snape was as nice to Harry during the lessons as he was. Most people would have been itching to rip the little brat's head off and claim he was eaten by the security troll guarding Harry's broom.. I do feel that Snape thought that Dumbledore coddled Harry too much, noting that Harry got more answers out of Snape then most people he asked. The other adults treating him as if he was too young to hear any of it, but Snape carefully feeding him info between bouts of trying to get him to be respectful or listen to him shows that Snape at least believes that Harry IS old enough to know this stuff. One figures Snape felt Harry should have known about the prophecy from day one, but Dumbledore risked a lot of peoples lives by NOT being straight with Harry from day one. If Harry had known, he might not have allowed himself to be sucked into Voldemort's plots.. Cedric might not have died, Voldemort might not have gotten his body back, etc. Jazmyn From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Fri Aug 1 23:23:46 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 23:23:46 -0000 Subject: Elixir of life Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74801 Nicholas Flamel was a muggle. He was not mentioned in any of the books about famous wizards that the trio looked through. Also, he was not on a chocolate frog card, but was mentioned on Dumbledore's. Olaf From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Aug 1 23:29:18 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 18:29:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Order of the Phoenix References: Message-ID: <3F2AF7CE.60300@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74802 Erin E, Bryant wrote: > throughout the book, it is repeated many times that Harry, Ron, and > Hermione are too young for OOTP, but after the incident at the MOM, > obviously they have all seen many things and have showed their > allegiance, also Ginny, Neville, and Luna did the same. Are they > going to be aloud to join the OOTP now or not > > erin > > Not till they are of age and out of school.. It was made clear that members were OF AGE and NOT IN SCHOOL. This is why Fred and George were not allowed in, they were still in school. Perhaps now that they are out, they 'might' be let in, though they tend to be 'loose canons' and are irresponsible. After the incident at the MOM, the rest of the gang showed THEY are too irresponsible to be in the Order to. They were out of line going to the MOM in the first place. As CHILDREN, they should have gotten ADULTS to do it. Go to Tonks, Lupin or Moody for help, not take matters into their own hands. Harry was arrogant to think that a bunch of kids were a match for Voldemort. They would have been better off even going to Snape if Harry wasn't so blinded by hatred to see that Snape, as a member of the Order, would have been able to tell if Sirius was really at the MOM. If I was Dumbledore, I wouldn't let any of the kids into the Order, except perhaps Hermione, who can keep secrets, knows her own limits and HAS A BRAIN. She's also almost too responsible for a kid her age. Must be that time turner? Jazmyn From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 00:18:35 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:18:35 -0000 Subject: I'm Really Slick (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74803 This a filk of the song "I Can Do That" from the musical "A Chorus Line". This filk is dedicated to Caius Marcius, in honor of the second anniversary of his HP filksite. All hail His Royal Filkness! I'm Really Slick SCENE: Zacharaias Smith recounts the origins of Dumbledore's Army (OoP). ZACHARAIAS SMITH: I'm watchin' Harry swish-and-flick, Said, "I'm just as slick; I'm just as slick." Knew ev'y gesture of the trick, Said, "I'm just as slick: I'm just as slick." One evening we went to the Hogs Head. We formed the DA on the spot-- Hoped we don't get caught So we found the Room of Requirement; Signed the parchment quadruple-quick. Now I'm really slick, I'm really slick. Took Harry's classes in Defense, Got confidence in all of my spells Thanks to Harry the DE's we'll lick. I'm no longer slack; Slickness means ME! I'm really slick. -Haggridd From readzalot at shaw.ca Sat Aug 2 00:47:41 2003 From: readzalot at shaw.ca (Deb) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 00:47:41 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summ... In-Reply-To: <9d.3cb76a9a.2c5c38ac@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74804 <<< Oboek8 at a... wrote: He must've loved Lily....even though he told Lily to go away after she tried to stop James from tormenting him, he only did this because he was embarrassed in front of the girl he had a crush on.>>> Maybe the title of that chapter "Snape's Worst Memory" was that he was appalled at his behavior in calling her a Mudblood after she was kind to him. If, indeed, he had a crush on her, that might have been the end of any possibility he had with her, and he knew it as soon as the words left his mouth. I know my teenaged son says pretty stupid things when he is upset, and he regrets them later. Deb S, aka readzalot, Canada From snapesmate at hotmail.com Sat Aug 2 03:52:38 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 03:52:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, Snape's upbringing, Snape's summ... In-Reply-To: <9d.3cb76a9a.2c5c38ac@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Oboek8 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/1/2003 7:24:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, > slgazit at s... writes: > > I have a theory that Snape was in love with Lily Potter. The > > penseive scene is seen through Snape's filtering. While the > > foursome is shown in a very unflattering way, Lily is described > > as a very positive person - again from Snape's POV. > > Likewise, this would explain him turning away from > > Voldemort - who killed Lily - and turning to DD, who tried to > > protect her. > > >> I definitely agree. He must've loved Lily. even > though he told Lily to go away after she tried to stop James from >>tormenting him, he only did this because he was embarrassed in >>front of the girl he had a crush on. Didn't Snape turn before James and Lily were killed? I do agree about the fact that he may have called her a mudblood out of embarrassment. Lily wasn't so perfect either. Just because teenSnape called her a mudblood she called him Snivellus. I found that pretty offensive myself. I think there had to be more going on between Snape and James and Sirius. That kitchen seen showed some pretty deep hatred between Snape and Sirius. Snape, I can understand. Sirius tried to kill him. However, what is Sirius' grudge against Snape? I just don't think the death eater thing is the cause, Sirius MUST know Dumbledore isn't a fool. When Harry was asking Sirius about their assinine behavior toward teenSnape, Sirius shrugged it off as being jerks, immaturity, etc. 20 years later, Sirius is still acting the same way toward Snape. Why? Lynne... From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Sat Aug 2 03:54:30 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:54:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment (slang and stuff)(longish aga... Message-ID: <159.22730ad4.2c5c8ff6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74806 In a message dated 8/1/2003 11:48:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, miss_dumblydore at yahoo.com writes: Heather: > Only started following this thread about two posts > ago, so sorry if someone already made this argument- > > I *do* think that Hermione's remark was pretty > derogatory- not sure if I'd call it racist > (speciesist?) and I truly doubt she meant it in a > hurtful way; I just think it was an incredibly stupid > comment. > > severus_book4 > > IMOO I think that this is just a remark, not racist > > in the least. > > She just doen't like horses. I don't own a dog, but > > I own a cat, > > does this make me racist? No, I just like cats more > > than dogs. > > Of course there's nothing wrong with her not liking > horses (don't like them myself), and there's also > nothing wrong with this dislike being the reason that > she doesn't find Firenze physically attractive. But > Firenze ISN'T a horse, and looking somewhat like one > doesn't mean anything- would you call a human that you > found unattractive a monkey (however accurate the > comparison my be)? She could have said, "No I don't > find him attractive" and left it at that. > Honestly, what bothered me most about it was how > hypocritical it was. Here's a girl who goes ballistic > anytime someone treats a house elf *the way the house > elf WANTS to be treated* (Dobby notwithstanding, of > course). Yet she can turn around and say nearly the > most insulting thing there is to say about a species > so proud that it will kill anyone "arrogant" enough to > merely ask for its help? Strange. Perhaps her goal is > simply to piss off every non-human on earth :) > > Just my two knuts :) > Cassie: I also just picked up this thread...but I agree with Heather (and anyone who feels the same). I haven't watched it in a long time...but I seem to remember in Planet of the Apes (at least the new version) where the apes good really POed when they were called monkeys. I think being called a 'horse' is an insult to Centaurs. I think at one point one of the Centaurs insults Firenze by calling him a common mule...or something. ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From random832 at rcbooks.org Sat Aug 2 03:25:34 2003 From: random832 at rcbooks.org (Random) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 22:25:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ghosts In-Reply-To: <3F29CB34.90706@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74807 On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 09:06 PM, T.M. Sommers wrote: > In Myrtle's case, I did not get the impression that any magic was used > to get her to stop haunting; she was just ordered to. yes, but that doesn't mean that had she disobeyed that order there would necessarily not have been consequences --Random832 From Oboek8 at aol.com Sat Aug 2 00:51:46 2003 From: Oboek8 at aol.com (Oboek8 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:51:46 EDT Subject: SHIP: What's the attraction? (Was: SHIP: Harry, Hermione...) Message-ID: <28.3bb92549.2c5c6522@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74808 Elle wrote: I think whether a character is good looking depends on the reader. One reader can imagine a character looking completely different than the next. Does it say in the book that Ron is bad looking? And is Harry any better? I know Hermione fixed her hair and made herself look very pretty for the ball. I think, at this point, Hermione would be more attracted to their friendship/loyalty/etc than their looks (like you said). By the way, I think Ron's quite adorable in the movie :) "Oboek8" From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Aug 2 01:11:04 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:11:04 -0500 Subject: Silly Questions (that may never be answered) References: <3F2AF19A.000001.60749@monica> Message-ID: <3F2B0FA8.4090204@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74809 Did Harry get a reward for the captured Death Eaters? A reward for the death of the wanted criminal, Sirius Black? (That would ad insult to injury, but perhaps he could give the money to Lupin and tell him to buy some new clothes.. or give it to Snape and tell him to buy some shampoo?) What happens when you sprinkle salt on Draco and Co while they are in the luggage rack? (Eww..) Can Tonks change her voice with her looks or does she still sound like Tonks if she changes into a 275 lb pro wrestler? What happened to the baby-headed Death Eater? Will they cure him? Does his head now grow at the same rate as his body, leaving him one day with a young head on an old body? Will he have to go through school again? Entering again at Hoggwarts when the head is 11 years old? There was no mention of Harry getting his broom back. Will Dumbledore mail it to him later or will he have to fight the troll for it? So what happens to Buckbeak now? Will Hermione or Hargrid start a home for renegade hipogriffs? Does Mrs. Malfoy inherit the Black home and its house elf? Can't see anyone like Black leaving a will, so I don't see Harry inheriting it, not to mention Harry is not even a blood relative of the Black family. Does the Wizard World have probate court? What happens if you find Nearly Headless Mick's body and remove the head after death. Would he finally be able to join the headless hunt? If you hide the head, does the ghost float around looking for its lost head? Does he learn sign language since he would no longer have a mouth? Would anyone be able to handle trying to communicate with a body with no head whatsoever? Jazmyn From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 01:14:02 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 01:14:02 -0000 Subject: Godfather, Is Harry Sirius' heir? (was "What Kreacher knows") Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74810 I've said before that we don't know exactly what being a godfather entails in the wizarding world. Sirius takes it very seriously and it gives him the authority to grant Harry permission to go to Hogsmeade. It is possible (pure speculation) that Harry is Sirius's heir. Olaf From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Aug 2 01:14:43 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2003 20:14:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape related to Aragog? References: Message-ID: <3F2B1083.5000405@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74811 greatlit2003 wrote: > In the Pensieve, Snape is described as walking like a spider. Could > he be an Animagus? (I know this sounds ridiculous, but I just > wondered if anyone has seen any other clues that suggest that Snape > might have connections to the spiders? I ask this because Aragog is > supposed to return in Book 6 or 7, and Snape will undoubtedly have > important roles too) > > greatlit2003 > He doesn't walk that way as an adult.. He glides, sweeps, whatever, with billowing cloak, but doesn't do the twitchy spider thing anymore. Jazmyn From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sat Aug 2 03:09:32 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:09:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP, FF: Ron/Harry rift? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74812 Rosa said: The Harry/Ron/Hermione thing reminds me of 'An Ideal Death Eater'. Have you read it? Cause the way you said it -- Ron getting jealous of Harry because he took Hermione away. But, the fic is much worse. Anyways, it's an okay idea, even though I doubt it would happen (hopes it doesn't) and even though I don't like Harry and Hermione together. But maybe a different kind of rift would separate them. It could be Hermione, a family member, pride, or trust (Harry's or Ron's)--whether it be lost because of a girl or because of feelings of betrayal or jealously--- it would probably depend on the situation. Joj says: No I haven't read that. I don't really think my idea will happen either. {Nor do I want it to} I was just trying to think of something that would cause a huge rift between the boys, because I cannot see Ron pulling a Peter Pettigrew. Although I think Peter will change sides again. He doesn't care about Voldemort {or anyone besides himself for that matter}. He has no loyalty. If there's a benefit for him to helping the order or Harry, he'll do it. Ron, on the other hand, is not so weak of character, and cares deeply for many people. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lucchaser at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 03:38:53 2003 From: lucchaser at yahoo.com (lucchaser) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 03:38:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's dad In-Reply-To: <3F2AF19A.000001.60749@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74813 carlisle32002: > If James Potter is supposed to be a decent guy, why do he and his pals (Lupin, Sirius) torment and pick on Snape during their time at hogwarts? Lily had the decency to tell him to stop. James looked a bit like Malfoy does now. I don't understand. >> K (Kathryn): > Then you've clearly never met a 15 year old boy. James and Sirius were popular, good looking, sporting heroes (well James was anyway, not sure about Sirius' quidditch prowess) hence they picked on the unpopular kids. Is it a nice thing to do? No of course it isn't, but teenagers are like that. At some point after the memory we see they presumably grew up (personally I think it was the Shack Incident that did it). >>> I agree with K. I just want to add the to the fact that we don't know the whole story with James, Sirius and Snape. We just got a little glimse of what they were like when they were younger (at that perfect age of 15). There is more to it, so we really can't judge James and Sirius on that one scene. For all we know, judging on how Snape was defending himself, Snape could have done some horrible things to James, Sirius and company too. Lucchaser From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 04:16:05 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:16:05 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dobby Vs. Kreacher Message-ID: <410-220038624165133@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74814 Lady MacBeth wrote: "People like to get really pissed off at Kreacher because of how he behaves toward Sirius, Harry and their friends, and how he stays loyal to his family by trying to save all of the Black family things that Sirius and Molly are trying to throw out. He disappears from sight whenever someone actually WANTS to find him, avoids being useful around the house, badmouths houseguests and is an all-around "anti-house elf". Now, on the other hand, while Dobby's Jar-Jar Binks impression gets irritating after a while, people generally are ok with him. He's worshipful toward Harry, acts like wizards/witches who give him things, especially clothes, are the greatest thing since sliced bread, etc. He cleans the Gryffindor Common Room by himself when Hermione insults the others by leaving the hats around. He helps Harry out with the Triwizard Task by stealing the gillyweed from Snape's stores. While he praises his freedom, he is seemingly the "ideal house elf". But is he? In a lot of respects, I think Dobby and Kreacher are two sides of the same coin, because they are loyal to two sides of the same coin. I think Dobby and Kreacher are BOTH "anti-house elves" - they just go about it in different manners, because each is exhibiting their own preferences and attitudes toward those around them, rather than being faithful, un-biased servants." Now me (Wendy): Great post, Lady MacBeth. But what if the conclusion to be made from this discussion is the other way aound? In other words, what if Dobby and Kreacher are both *entirely typical* house elves? Here's what came to me while reading your post: First of all, in canon we've seen three individual house elves in some detail: Dobby, Kreacher and Winky. But let's leave Kreacher out of this for a moment. Before OoP, the only experience we had was with Dobby and Winky. And I think the conclusion we were supposed to take away with us when comparing the two of them is that Winky is the "typical" house elf, and Dobby the anomaly. Dobby had betrayed his family, he was eager to receive clothes and be free, he didn't seem to feel demeaned at the thought of being paid for his work. Whereas Winky went to great lengths to protect her family, didn't want to be freed, felt humiliated by her new status after being released by Crouch Sr. In the scene in the Hogwarts kitchen, the majority of house elves seemed to sympathise with Winky and act as though Dobby was a troublemaker. Okay. Now, in OoP, we meet Kreacher. And I think you are correct saying that he and Dobby have a great deal in common. Both of them exhibit strong loyalty to people who are *not* their masters, and both betray their masters for a cause in which they believe. It's this idea of a "cause in which they believe" which has gotten me to wonder if maybe we haven't been hornswoggled by JKR into believing something about house elves which is not quite true. I think that house elves are actually far more powerful and far more autonomous than anyone in the Wizarding World wants to believe. They have powerful magic, which they seem to be able to use in situations where other magic is forbidden (Dobby apparating within Hogwarts, for example), a fact which I think is underplayed (as in unnoticed) by the actual characters in the story. More importantly, as the series has developed, we've been introduced to progressively more examples of the way the WW has tried to oppress non- or part-humans: the enslavement of the house elves; the controversy over the definition of "beings" vs "beasts" - in which the centaurs and merfolk have both been involved; that goblins are being denied certain freedoms; that giants have been forced out of their homes and forced to live together in unsuitable conditions; legislation banning werewolves from employment. We've also *begun* to see these groups respond to these situations (the centaurs refusing to involve themselves in the Voldemort situation, the possibility that the goblins will side with Voldemort because of the way they've been treated) - but I think we've only touched the surface with where this will go in future books. Earlier this afternoon, I was re-reading the chapters where Harry has his hearing at the Ministry, and sees the statue in the lobby. I think the description is very important to the point I'm making here: (OoP, page 156, US hardcover): "He looked up into the handsome wizard's face, but up close, Harry thought he looked rather weak and foolish. the witch was wearing a vapid smile like a beauty contestant, and from what Harry knew of goblins and centaurs, they were most unlikely to be caught staring this soppily at humans of any description. Only the house-elf's attitude of creeping servility looked convincing." Hmnnh. If the depictions of the goblin and centaur are wrong, maybe the house elf's portrayal was, too. I think that house-elves are not as servile as everyone in the Wizarding World (and, therefore, the reader) thinks. We've been told that they can't disobey direct orders from their masters, which seems to be true. It does appear as though Kreacher and Dobby both were not able to divulge certain information during their betrayals of their respective masters. But they both *did* betray those masters. And the house elves at Hogwarts have now decided to stop cleaning Gryffindor Tower because Hermione's knitted gifts have offended them. I assume that if Dumbledore *told* them specifically to start cleaning the tower again, they would. But in the meantime, they're sure doing their own thing, aren't they? Although it is their *job* to clean the tower, they aren't doing it, and it is apparently a decision based on what they think is right and wrong. Based on their own sensibilities, in any case. Just as it was Dobby's moral beliefs which moved him to betray the Malfoys and support Harry, and it was Kreacher's moral beliefs which moved him to betray Sirius to Narcissa. Of all the house elves we've known, Winky is the *only* one who apparently continued to faithfully serve her master in all ways in spite of the fact that she didn't agree with what was going on in her household. Assuming that she really did disapprove. Perhaps she didn't, and was only upset because of the destruction all of this caused to her family. So while we seem to be *told* that house elves must serve their masters unquestioningly, this certainly doesn't appear to be the reality of the situation. I'll also add that this isn't about whether or not the elves want to be freed. From all we know, Dobby is definitely the anomaly in this regard. Winky, Kreacher and all the Hogwarts elves don't appear to want their "freedom." They are quite happy to do their jobs well, as long as their masters don't do anything with which the elves don't agree. This is another thing which suggests to me that perhaps they aren't really as enslaved as we (and the WW) believe them to be. Perhaps they are mostly happy because over time the relationships within families don't change that much. Elves who work for dark wizard families like the Malfoys and Blacks tend to develop attitudes similar to Kreacher's, while elves who work for families with other attitudes will likely agree with those attitudes. But every so often, something happens to change the balance. An elf decides that he doesn't actually agree with his family's beliefs (Dobby). Or a family member whose beliefs are far different from the family norm becomes master over an elf who still believes in the old ways (Kreacher). The relationship falls apart, and the elves do what they feel needs to be done to restore what they consider to be "right." More importantly, the elves have the *autonomy* to do this, in spite of their apparent enslavement. They punish themselves, yes. But that doesn't stop them from doing the things in the first place, does it? So, my overall conclusion is that the elves are happy to serve their families as long as nothing happens to insult their own sense of morality. But if an elf decides that his or her master is in the "wrong," than said elf will go to any length *short of disobeying a direct command* to undermine the master. Or said elf will just cease to attend to the questionable duties. This would seem to conflict with the "creeping servility" of the elf in the MoM statue, wouldn't it? So, what happens if a majority of elves start believing that their masters are "wrong?" I think it's entirely possible that all h*ll would break loose in the Wizarding World. :-) Wendy From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 03:59:51 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 20:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's dad In-Reply-To: <3F2AF19A.000001.60749@monica> Message-ID: <20030802035951.87540.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74815 carlisle32002 wrote: >> If James Potter is supposed to be a decent guy, why do he and his pals (Lupin, Sirius) torment and pick on Snape during their time at Hogwarts? Lily had the decency to tell him to stop. James looked a bit like Malfoy does now. I don't understand. << now me- Eowynn I believe that you can't judge what James and Sirius were like as teens by seeing one memory. If you didn't know anything about HRH or their Slytherine counterparts, and one day you happen chance look into Malfoy's memory and see Hermione slap him, Harry and Ron threatening him, would you think that they weren't decent people? There is a history between both groups, each side tormenting the other. I believe that we have to remember that they are still just kids while they are at Hogwarts, and if we were to judge we would have to see both sides, not just Snape's one memory. Sorry if this sounds preachy, it is just how I took the whole scene. Eowynn_24 From jstuart57 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 04:21:46 2003 From: jstuart57 at yahoo.com (jstuart57) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:21:46 -0000 Subject: HP Urban Legend #47 (was Re: A mole in the order? was: Sirius - who is right?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74816 I wrote: > We've been warned not to trust Snape or > get to liking him too much. It has been kindly pointed out to me that JKR apparently did not warn us off Snape but cautioned us about Malfoy, although JKR has allowed that Snape is not very nice. Quite the contrary, we have been told to keep our eye on Snape because appearances are deceiving. I refer you to Talisman's excellent post #73676 on the topic of JKR's Snape comments. Regards, JoAnn From shaman at mac.com Sat Aug 2 04:27:35 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:27:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: <010f01c35856$dcc2ede0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74817 Here's my take: This is Hermione being totally clueless: In order to make a remark like that, she has to be totally ignorant about Centaurs (or should I say, the 'hippocenely-augmented'?), right? But *how* can Hermione BE that clueless about anything? Well, she's only 15 - she can't have memorised everything yet, can she? Still, it explains how Hermione - of all people! - could ignorantly insult the Centaurs into a frenzy...convenient timing, too.... From ratalman at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 04:30:44 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:30:44 -0000 Subject: Silly Questions (that may never be answered) In-Reply-To: <3F2B0FA8.4090204@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > So what happens to Buckbeak now? Will Hermione or Hargrid start a home > for renegade hipogriffs? I remember hearing somewhere that JKR said that Harry would get a new pet at some point in the story. Could Buckbeak be that new pet? Robyn From eberte at vaeye.com Sat Aug 2 04:31:28 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:31:28 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > Can I get an Amen?! I do not understand why people keep complaining > that Snape didn't try hard enough teaching Harry occlumency! What > more was he supposed to do? Hold Harry's hand and give him a lollipop > at the end of every lesson? As a teacher, Snape is no barrel of > monkeys, but all things considered, I thought he was downright > congenial. > Sure, Snape hated Harry from the word go, but since then, Harry > hasn't done much to endear himself. If Snape can read minds, imagine > what he's been seeing in Harry's busy little head for the past five > years; "I hate Snape", "Snape is trying to kill me", "check out his > greasy hair and yellow teeth", "Snape is a closeted Death Eater", "I > hate Potions", and "I think, instead of going to an adult about this > problem, I'll just put on this invisibility cloak and break hundreds > of school rules." No wonder Snape hates him! > Me: The point is that Snape has hated and mistreated Harry since he first met him (when Harry was an 11 year old boy, I will remind you.) Was he nasty to Harry during his first Potions lesson because Harry was insolent and arrogant? Nope. He began his public-humiliation-of- Harry campaign simply because Harry looked like his father. I could make a case that Harry's disrespect of Snape is a response to the (mostly) undeserved abuse he has suffered at Snape's hands. Treating Snape nicely and with respect does not necessarily lead to fair dealings from him (see Hermione--"I see no difference" episode, and endless Neville interactions.) Snape is mean as a snake, emotionally damaged and immature. Blaming Harry for the discord in his relationship with Snape is a bit misguided, IMO. That said, I *believe* that he was trying to teach Harry Occlumency as well as he could. The problem was less Snape's teaching and more that Harry had no incentive to learn since no one explained to him exactly *why* it was important to do so. I agree that perhaps Snape came to understand Harry a bit better through the memories that he extracted during the sessions, just as Harry came to feel sympathy for Snape after seeing the memory in the pensieve, although it was not apparent in the interactions between the two. Elle From laxer26 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 04:39:07 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:39:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silly Questions Message-ID: <20030802043907.65066.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74820 Jazmyn said: Can Tonks change her voice with her looks or does she still sound like Tonks if she changes into a 275 lb pro wrestler? Laxer: Theoretically yes she should be able to. She is capable of changing her muscle structure, then she can, she just has to alter the thickness of the vocal cords. Practically, it may be impossible for her to change, because, I would assume, there is little room for error. Jazmyn said: There was no mention of Harry getting his broom back. Will Dumbledore mail it to him later or will he have to fight the troll for it? Laxer: How about he brought it home with him? I'm sure that there was enough time to retrieve it after he got back. Why would he leave one of his most prized possessions at school? Jazmyn said: So what happens to Buckbeak now? Will Hermione or Hargrid start a home for renegade hipogriffs? Laxer: I think JKR mentioned that Harry was going to be getting a new pet.... If so, then I think that Buckbeak is likely it. Jazmyn said: Does Mrs. Malfoy inherit the Black home and its house elf? Can't see anyone like Black leaving a will, so I don't see Harry inheriting it, not to mention Harry is not even a blood relative of the Black family. Does the Wizard World have probate court? Laxer: Actually, I would have to say that Mrs Malfoy would not get it either. After all, she is no longer related to Sirius because Sirius was disowned. This then brings into question weather or not Sirius actually owned the house, but I believe that he did, otherwise Kreatcher would not obey him. Also, even if they did own it, they could never find it. Hope it helps, Laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From EnsTren at aol.com Sat Aug 2 04:39:19 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 00:39:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fawkes (was : Neville's Wand) Message-ID: <7b.167bac3b.2c5c9a77@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74821 In a message dated 8/1/2003 9:00:48 AM Eastern Daylight Time, delwynmarch at yahoo.com writes: > Sorry for the sarcasm, but Fawkes would burn only every 100 years, > and he would happen to do it *precisely* when Harry is there to see > him do it ? Please, give me a break ! Moreover, the very casual way > DD says that it was about time he burned because he had been looking > awful lately made me feel like he was doing it every few months, > every few years at maximum. > > Del > Now, could it have been that Fwakes was holding out so harry could see him? Or Dumbledore told him to? Also, I think your "every few months" idea is a bit...off. Think, it wouldn't make sence in the wild. lets say it takes a week for a pheonix to "grow up" after a burning. And likewise a week of being "old" Okay, fine. You do it every few months, say every three months, that's over 20% of your time being spent in less than top condition. On a regular basis. *Plus* growing after being killed. What happens if you kill a baby pheonix? I doubt, even if possiblely, the burning is either a neutral sensation or plesent they would enjoy...say being kicked into a wall and dying of bleeding to death, or being eaten. So extend it to every few years. Fine, but we have seen that muggles get *some* things right in their myths and legends. So while 1000 is out of the question, and most seem to think 100 is too long for Dumbledore to simply shrug off missing it, how about fifty? Also, since when is Dumbledore exactly readable ot open? There are secrets behind those twinkling eyes. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 04:40:44 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:40:44 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: <3F2AF52B.9020402@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > And you barely scratched the surface. Harry has lied to Snape's face > about the stolen potion ingredients, even though Harry didn't steal them > directly, others stole them for him. Harry, Ron and Hermione knocked > Snape, a TEACHER out in the presence of an unstable werewolf. They freed > Sirius afterwards, not endearing them to Snape at all. > > I'm amazed Severus Snape was as nice to Harry during the lessons as he > was. Most people would have been itching to rip the little brat's head > off and claim he was eaten by the security troll guarding Harry's broom.. > I do feel that Snape thought that Dumbledore coddled Harry too much, > noting that Harry got more answers out of Snape then most people he > asked. The other adults treating him as if he was too young to hear any > of it, but Snape carefully feeding him info between bouts of trying to > get him to be respectful or listen to him shows that Snape at least > believes that Harry IS old enough to know this stuff. One figures Snape > felt Harry should have known about the prophecy from day one, but > Dumbledore risked a lot of peoples lives by NOT being straight with > Harry from day one. If Harry had known, he might not have allowed > himself to be sucked into Voldemort's plots.. Cedric might not have > died, Voldemort might not have gotten his body back, etc. I'll go you one further on this subject. If anything, I would think Snape would respect Harry even LESS than he did before, if that's possible. He might understand Harry a bit more, and may even sympathize with his abusive upbringing, but I'm not sure that translates into respect. When it came down to a moment of real crisis, Harry was running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, and as usual, took matters into his own hands. This seemed rather like plucky aplomb in the earlier books, but this time it struck me as totally irresponsible and selfish. Then Harry has the audacity to blame Snape for the whole fiasco. Dumbledore's response of (I'm paraphrasing) "oh, I should have known that Snape couldn't put aside his feelings" was even more unbelievable to me. Is Dumbledore going the way of Ronald Reagan or what? Harry is the one who couldn't put his feelings aside! Obviously, Snape has what could charitably called "issues." I think he really wants to be respected and thought of as important, perhaps even pathologically so. A little strategic brown-nosing on Harry's part might go a long way. That, and a sincere apology. Don't get me wrong, I am very fond of Harry, but after OoP, I respect him less. Allyson From jstuart57 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 04:43:10 2003 From: jstuart57 at yahoo.com (jstuart57) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:43:10 -0000 Subject: Sirius Poisoning (was A mole in the order? / Sirius - who is right?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" (or her head) wrote: Talisman (or her head) wrote: > Talisman's head, popping into your electronic hearth for a moment, > says: > Since this topic is still bubbling up, I'll just add that it doesn't > seem that anyone but the readers are suspecting poisoning--and all > of them think that only Voldy's mole would do such a thing. > Therefore when they consider "obvious" Snape they conclude he really > is still a bad-guy; and so jump, not so obviously, right down the > wrong rabbit-hole. No one in the Order is going to go after Snape, > because he is obedient to DD. I ought to have changed the subject line when I posted my earlier comments re: Mole in the Order. My apologies. If I may clarify: I do not believe Snape (or anyone else at this point) to be a mole in the Order. Voldemort has successfully infiltrated the MoM, but I don't think he's gotten to the Order. But poisoning Black is a different story. I do believe that Black may have been ingesting something that was doing him no good. Snape is a skilled (not to mention a tad vindictive) potions master who is eminently capable of brewing a little something to bewitch the mind and ensare the senses, especially if he could get back at Black a bit. I have since rethought my assertion that Snape would go as far as killing Black. While I doubt he would mourn his enemy, I don't think he would actually facilitate, much less perpetrate the deed himself. (Unless, of course, Black suddenly turned into a DE or something.) Snape seems to be on the road to redemption, and premeditated murder does not generally lie along that path. But redemption in one area doesn't necessarily mean someone is nice through and through. Snape is certainly not above toying with Black or increasing Black's misery, especially since other than providing a place to stay, Black appears to be doing nothing to further the work of the Order. If Black were a bit more crazy and miserable, it wouldn't necessarily impede the Order. Could it be that Dumbledore may even have known what Snape was up to and not stopped it, hoping it would provide enough of a vent for Snape to allow him to continue the Occlumency lessons? No, my man Snape isn't "nice." Nevertheless, being nasty doesn't mean one is a mole for Voldemort; Snape is no turncoat. > Talisman, who woulldn't mind a bit of toast, if you have it. Please, may I offer you like some jam as well? Regards, JoAnn From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 04:57:19 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 04:57:19 -0000 Subject: Elixir of life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > Nicholas Flamel was a muggle. He was not mentioned in any of the > books about famous wizards that the trio looked through. Also, he was > not on a chocolate frog card, but was mentioned on Dumbledore's. > Olaf Actually, the types of library books the Trio looked through are listed in PS/SS ch. 12: _Great_Wizards_of_the_Twentieth_Century_, _Notable_Magical_Names_of_Our_Time_, _Important_Modern_Magical_Discoveries_, and A__Study_of_Recent_Developments_in_Wizardry_, and, as Ron comments in the next chapter, "He's not exactly recent if he's six hundred and sixty-five, is he?" They'd been looking for Flamel in books about recent magical research, which don't cover the time of the discovery of the Philosopher's Stone. Nicholas Flamel is an alchemist. That's Magic; therefore he's a wizard. And how would we know he hasn't got his own card? On their first journey on the Hogwarts Express, Ron tells Harry he's got about five hundred famous witches and wizards cards, so we can't *nearly* have heard of all of them -- how many doubles would you expect Ron to keep? Annemehr who is finding it a walk in the park to look things up in PS/SS after the frustration of trying to track things down in OoP... From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 05:01:24 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 05:01:24 -0000 Subject: Unaccounted DEs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74825 Who were the remaining DEs of the 10 that escaped from Azkaban? 1.Bellatrix 2.Rabastan 3.Rodolpus 4.Rookwood 5.Dolohov 6.Mulciber 7.???-perhaps Jugson since he was a new DE that we never heard of 8.???-Travers maybe since he was the only other DE that we know of locked in Azkaban 9.??? 10.??? From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 05:01:44 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 05:01:44 -0000 Subject: Houses (was:Re: Thestral Boy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > my reply: > I missed this one, but after a moments thought, the sorting hat said > it was to divide them, and from what I've seen It has divided them > equally, meaning 5 boys, and what 5 girls, we usually only hear > about Hermoine. And as the slytherin boys were sorted, why is it > that only three of them seem important until now, In that class, I > thought it was Crabbe, Goyle, and Malfoy from Slytherin, so it has > to be Grabbe or Goyle, and who would they have witnessed the death > of? This seems very important now that I see it this way! Lori I don't think the division is quite that neat. Students are sorted by their personalities/talents/values. The hat sorts each one as he or she puts it on. I find it hard to believe that the houses would all be exactly the same size. It can't put all the clear one where they belong and then come back to the border-line students. I think the houses are about the sime size, but not exactly. There seem to be only three Gryffindor girls in Harry year. There are five boys. Besides, I doubt every year has an even number of boys and girls. bibphile From ratalman at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 05:17:23 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 05:17:23 -0000 Subject: If you can't see where it keeps its brain... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74827 In CoS, Arthur Weasley upon hearing of Tom Riddle's diary, tells Ginny: "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't see where it keeps its brain!" The problem is that this same description aptly fits two other prominent magical entities: the sorting hat and the marauders map. As we know (presumably) that these are not the handiwork of dark wizards, I don't think that we should fear them, but I wonder if JKR is hinting that all is not as it seems with one or the other. Robyn From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sat Aug 2 05:23:29 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 01:23:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) Message-ID: <4f.3269b12d.2c5ca4d1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74828 In a message dated 8/1/03 5:07:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, snapesmate at hotmail.com writes: > It never actually states they are HE and HIS > parents. For all we know it could have been HIM, his wife and their > child.... uh oh... new conspiracy/spy theory... what if it WAS him > and he was angry because his wife and son were in danger or > something... Ack! I've been fighting this in the Theory Bay for a while now. *puts on her SILK SHIRTS Captain's hat* OoP US Hardback Page 592: Snape staggered; his wand flew upward, away from Harry - and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his - *a hook-nosed man* was shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner .... A greasy-haired teenager sat along in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at the ceiling, shooting down flies .... A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried to mount a bucking broomstick - (Emphasis my own) (END QUOTE) Harry, apparently, saw the man's face if he knew enough to call him "hook-nosed". And, even if Harry only saw the profile of the man, Harry has seen Snape's profile before and I daresay he would recognize it again: PoA US Paperback Page 165: Harry opened his eyes a fraction and squinted up to where they stood; Dumbledore's back was to him, but he could see Percy's face, rapt with attention, and Snape's profile, which looked angry. While there is no canon that directly says that Harry saw Snape, Snape's supposed wife, and Snape's supposed child, in my opinion I feel confident that the child Harry saw was Snape himself. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Who doesn't think that it's fair when people who obviously have certain feelings about certain characters deny them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 05:52:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 05:52:20 -0000 Subject: Dobby Vs. Kreacher In-Reply-To: <410-220038624165133@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" wrote: > > RBS ...Really Big Snip... > > So, my overall conclusion is that the elves are happy to serve their > families as long as nothing happens to insult their own sense of > morality. But if an elf decides that his or her master is in the > "wrong," than said elf will go to any length *short of disobeying a > direct command* to undermine the master. Or said elf will just cease > to attend to the questionable duties. This would seem to conflict > with the "creeping servility" of the elf in the MoM statue, wouldn't > it? > > So, what happens if a majority of elves start believing that their > masters are "wrong?" I think it's entirely possible that all h*ll > would break loose in the Wizarding World. > > :-) > Wendy bboy_mn: I like it. I like it. What you said, is framed differently, but ties in nicely with my own believe regarding house-elves. For more info, see- House-Elves & the Tie That Binds. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71752 About half way down in the post referenced above, I ask the questions- "What binds a House-Elf to the family House?" and of course, I answer it. I have also said similar things in a variety of post on the nature of house-elves. I don't believe that there is any force of law or magic that binds house-elves to their masters. They are only bound by Elfish Honor. They gave their word that they and their decendants would serve a family, and because to serve honorably is the very essence of a house-elves existance, they will endure a lot of abuse rather than dis-honor themselves. They are bond by their history, their nature, their pride, and their fierce unwavering honor and loyalty. But honor only goes so far, and when the actions of their Master become so extreme and dishonorable, then it creates the potential for the elves to chose a different course of action. Every being has his/her/its breaking point. So, when the shame and dishonor of how they are being treated exceeds the dishonor of breaking their sworn loyalty to the family they serve, the bond is broken. That is certainly a sad and traumatic day for a house-elf; it goes against the very essence and fiber of their being. I'm sure many of them are so fiercely tied to that sense of honor and oath, that they would chose death over dishonor, but as in all times of tyranny, there are those who chose true honor, honor to a higher power and greater cause over dishonor. Remember what Dobby said, that in the heyday of Voldemort's first reign, house-elves were treated like vermin. Have you really stopped and tried to understand the full impact of that statement. Let me give you a hint. When we were young we used to go out to the city dump, and shoot rats for the fun of it. In that vein, I can see wizards elf hunting or for target practice while they learn spells or torturing them just for the sport of it. That's what it means to be treated like vermin. Like I said, when their Masters become so extremely and brutally dishonorable, I think a house-elf, dispite the shame, is within his rights to just walk away. Evil dishonorable Masters exploit the honorable nature of house-elves, the same way the evil men exploit the generally good nature of all people. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 06:01:37 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 23:01:37 -0700 Subject: FILK - House of Black Message-ID: <410-220038626137198@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 74830 "House of Black" - part of the "Hogwarts Story" musical extravaganza. An OoP filk to "America" from the stage production of "West Side Story" (Note - I'm being shameless in using the version of each song which best suits my needs, so parts of "Hogwarts Story" are based on lyrics/arrangements from the stage production, while parts are based on the movie. I will make note of which is which in the future). (Scene: At 12 Grimmauld Place, where Sirius bemoans the fact that he is forced to stay in his childhood home.) MOLLY: 12 Grimmauld Place, Our lovely safe house . . . So what if it's not such a clean house? Safe for the Order to meet here We can rest and kick up our feet here . . . SIRIUS: 12 Grimmauld Place, Our "lovely" safe house, It is such a musty and grim house. Always my usefullness doubting. Always the insults my mum's shouting. And the house elf pouting. And the snuffbox biting. And the doxies fighting. This place is just so depressing, My mental health is regressing! Everything sucks in the House of Black. There's grime and muck in the House of Black. I hate being stuck in the House of Black. HARRY, RON & HERMIONE: Down on his luck in the House of Black. SIRIUS: I want to go somewhere brand new. MOLLY : Ministry's still looking for you. SIRIUS: I'd hoped that Harry could stay here . . . HARRY : Won my hearing, so my name's clear. SIRIUS: I hate to be in the House of Black. It's so gloomy in the House of Black. Got no roomie in the House of Black. REMUS : What about me in the House of Black? GEORGE & FRED: Here you are safe from the Dark Lord. SIRIUS : Safe to do nothing but be bored. GINNY: My mum provides us with good food. SIRIUS: *MY* mum's always in a foul mood. GEORGE: Doxies have nests in the House of Black. FRED: Boggarts in desks in the House of Black. GINNY: Kreacher's a pest in the House of Black. REMUS: Safety's the best in the House of Black. (An interlude of dancing) SIRIUS: Kreacher I can't stand to be near. HERMIONE : It's not his fault he's enslaved here. SIRIUS: This place is driving me crazy! SNAPE : Just your excuse for being lazy. (SIRIUS AND SNAPE drawn their wands simultaneously) HERMIONE: Terrible scene in the House of Black. RON: Portraits all scream in the House of Black. HARRY: I have weird dreams in the House of Black. SIRIUS I can't be seen from the House of Black. (An interlude of more dancing) SIRIUS: I'm going with Harry to King's Cross. HARRY: But if you're caught, could be big loss. SIRIUS: Padfoot is a perfect disguise. MOLLY : Come if you must, though it's not wise. (dancing continues as they all head out the door on the way to catch the Hogwarts' Express) And, for those who are still in a musical mood, please join me in singing: Happy Birthday to Me Happy Birthday to Me Happy Birthday dear Wendy! Happy Birthday to me! Yes, I missed sharing Harry's and JKR's birthday by just one day. I've never minded much, though, as my birthday *is* a witchy holiday in the real-world (Lammas). Spent the day at the Monterey Bay Aquarium (fantastic jellyfish), and got a really cool Evenstar necklace from hubby and son, so now I can pretend to be an elf if I want . :-) Wendy Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 06:07:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 06:07:54 -0000 Subject: Elixir of life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > Nicholas Flamel was a muggle. He was not mentioned in any of the > books about famous wizards that the trio looked through. Also, he was > not on a chocolate frog card, but was mentioned on Dumbledore's. > > Olaf bboy_mn: Not true, he is mentioned in a book. As someone else pointed out, Hermione couldn't find him in any of the books she looked in because she was looking for wizards with recent achievements. Once she realized how old Flamel was, she went straight to her dorm room and came back with "an enormous book" that she took from the library for some light reading. In this un-named book, she finds a profile of Nicholas Flamel. The profile does not specifically say that he was a wizard, but he knew about the wizard world because he worked with Dumbledore. There are other hints, already mentioned in another thread under this same subject heading. So, while not proof, the evidence does seem to lean in the direction of Flamel being wizard. Just a thought. bboy_mn From pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 06:14:41 2003 From: pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com (Risti) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 06:14:41 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74832 The topic floated around awhile back about a hint in the Career Advice chapter relating to Book 6. Well, the other night I finally got around to rereading the chapter, specifically looking for that. This is what I found. "What's the point," [Ron] said dully, "We've got about as much chance of winning the Quidditch Cup this year as Dad's got of becoming Minister of Magic."(pg 575 British) And of course, we all know Ron's a Seer in denial. Furthermore, "The Minister for Magic will never employ Harry Potter!' said Umbridge, her voice rising furiously. "There may well be a new Minister for Magic by the time Potter is ready to join!" shouted Professor McGonagall. (pg 586 British) So...I know where I'm putting my bet, how about you? ~Risti From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 07:21:07 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 07:21:07 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: >Of course I've thought that. But, as I think my post indicated, >*I* don't see the waters as being muddied. Fleur thanks and kisses >Harry, then turns and does the same to Ron. THEN we hear that >Hermione looks furious. GEO: Probably because Harry's attention was still on the kiss and the story is told from his limited pov so he wouldn't have noticed Hermione being furious when Fleur was kissing him since he would be distracted. It was only after the kiss that he noticed that Hermione was furious while at the same time Fleur was kissing Ron. >Also, while JKR may not be giving away her hand in that paragraph, >what is she doing with interview comments suggesting that the >tension is between Ron and Hermione, in response to a question about >Hermione and Harry getting involved? GEO: Tension does not equal future relationship. Imo the R/H shippers are playing right into her hands by believing that the Katie Couric interview was a confirmation on her part. If anything that was a dodge by Rowling. > Hermione could have been impatient because Harry either hadn't > understood or was stalling to answer her question ("Are you going to > see her again?"). GEO:But why be impatient? It was not exactly her business and as you stated she was more "intellectually ruled". So I find it confusing that Hermione would be impatient to find out if he was going out with Cho. > > Her distant demeanor indicates an emotional connection? You do > realize how contradictory that sounds, right? And that it could just > as easily be argued that she, being an intellectually-ruled (as > opposed to emotionally-ruled) person in general, has a tendency to > try to look at and explain things in an orderly, businesslike > fashion? GEO:Then why is it that she is impatient in one moment while in the next she becomes distant. If anything the change occurs when she knows that Harry is going to go out with Cho. Now then if she didn't have an emotional connection why would she become distant and businesslike when she learns that Harry has plans with Cho unless she wants to conceal her emotions. > Ron and Hermione are friends. Therefore, > either of these pairings could ultimately result in a friendship- > based relationship. But because Ron gets jealous and gave Hermione > perfume and they have mutual spats they can't have a friendship- based > relationship? In regards to Ron and Hermione, their friendship is nothing compared to the one shared by Harry and Hermione. Those two finish each others sentences, know what the other is thinking and when they argue they actually argue at relevant and valid issues and are quick to reconcile in contrast to the Ron and Hermione friendship which is marked by petty bickering and a lack of communication and knowledge of the other. > > Of course, there's a simple solution to the dilemma you describe. > Harry and Hermione could get involved with other friends who are > already well aware of (and not threatened by) their friendship. > Like...I don't know...Ron and Ginny, maybe? GEO: The H/G ship is pretty much sunk since Ginny has grown out of her crush. If it even begins then it begins incredibly flawed since the two are forced together by Ron who wants them to date at the end of Ootp. If anything else Ginny still sees Harry as the champion who banished Voldemort as a baby and when she got a glimpse of the very real and angry Harry she didn't like it all. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 07:21:19 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 07:21:19 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione ,Ron & Ginny[SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Trish" wrote: > See, I always read it as Ron wanting Harry to be with Ginny because > then Harry would be his REAL brother and not just like a brother. GEO:What difference would it make? If anything his relationship to the Weasleys would still be the same. He wouldn't be anymore closer since he already is considered part of the family by Molly. > As for Hermione, JKR obviously (IMHO) wants us to see her as Harry's > best friend, along with Ron. GEO:More like the best friend that replaces Ron. If anything he becomes closer to her. She helps him set up the DA, goes off with him to the Forbidden Forest twice and sneaks into Umbridge's office with him. I think that her being a girl really has > so bearing on their relationship AT ALL. It is almost as if you can > go back and read the pages between H/H and substitute a boys name and > not have any flow problems whatsoever. GEO: How about the part where he tells her that he doesn't find her ugly, the battle in the DoM where he grabs her of all people when escaping the numerous DEs, the numerous times that Hermione clutches to harry's arm when they are in danger most specifically twice in the forest and the hug she gives him that lasts for several minutes when he first arrives at the Ootp HQ? If anything these parts can't be substituted with males or else they would have certain homosexual undertones. From random832 at rcbooks.org Sat Aug 2 07:30:14 2003 From: random832 at rcbooks.org (Random) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 02:30:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Houses (was:Re: Thestral Boy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <280A6028-C4BB-11D7-9AD2-0003939A0BA2@rcbooks.org> No: HPFGUIDX 74835 On Saturday, August 2, 2003, at 12:01 AM, bibphile wrote: > There seem to be only three Gryffindor girls in Harry year. The boggart scene from PoA seems to imply otherwise. I'll give you that we (and harry) only seem to know three names... if he can't even be bothered to learn names for his OWN house, why would he know Thestral Boy's name who knows - maybe he has a crappy memory for names and faces, or maybe he just doesn't care. (merlin forbid we actually suggest harry might not be an entirely nice person) --Random832 From random832 at rcbooks.org Sat Aug 2 07:26:42 2003 From: random832 at rcbooks.org (Random) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 02:26:42 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74836 On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 09:20 AM, Doriane wrote: > What about Nott Jr ? Wasn't s/he sorted in Slytherin that same year > too ? Could be another House/year, though, I don't have my books with > me. His house was never confirmed in canon... I believe some fanfics have supposed him to be a Ravenclaw, though i'm not certain of that. >> CANON: Harry does not know thestral guy's name. CANON: _we_ don't know his name. It's assumed that Harry doesn't. > I agree with you that this guy's name must be terribly important. > First because Harry doesn't know it, which is higly suspicious in my > opinion, but also because Hagrid is interrupted by Umbridge right when > he's going to say his name. Yes, that's a red flag JKR doesn't want _us_ to know the name. Incidentally, i'm not tracking all threads, so everyone please keep the word "wicked" in message titles if you can --Random832 From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 08:22:26 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 08:22:26 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74837 > > KathyK > > > > Or Voldemort had no way to get to him because Flamel knows that many > > people, not just evil wizards, will want what he has (a means to > > achieve immortality and great wealth). > > > > bboy_Mmn: > I think you are on to something here. Flamel is almost 700 years old, > and in all that time, I'm sure every evil witch and wizard, and many > not so evil witches and wizards have lusted after the Philospher's > Stone. Certainly, Flamel will have had to have taken extraordinary > precautions to guard it and himself. > >KathyK continues: > > > > ...having all sorts of protections against attempts to steal the > > stone or the elixir. > > As I said above, Flamel has had 700 years of practice at guarding the > stone, and generally speaking, keeping the Stone and it secrets away > from unenlightened people is one of the primary objectives of a > successful alchemist. So, I'm sure Flamel had every conceivable and > perhaps a few as yet unconceive by common wizards, protection around > himself, his family, his house, the elixer, and the stone. > > > Maybe they moved it to Gringott's after Quirrel/Voldemort > > tried to get at it. Since Gringott's has never been successfully > > broken into, it would be an obvious solution until they could get > > the stone to Dumbledore. > > > > KathyK > > bboy_mn: > Not only is the stone in Gringotts, it is deep deep deep within the > underground storage, and is in a high security vault. A vault that > isn't opened with a key, so it would be difficult and dangerous for > anyone to try and open. It would seem to be a very safe place, > especially against common theives, but when Flamel and Dumbledore > somehow gained information that there was an active plot to steal the > Stone, they thought it would be better protected if it were a little > closer by so they could keep a personal eye on it. Then, of course, > they moved it to Hogwarts. Despite people's statements that the > enchantments, beast, and charm were pretty pathetic if a few first > years could get past them, I think the stone was very well protected, > and the first years that got past the protection, were not your > typical first years. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn KathyK again: The more I think about all this, the more interesting it gets. And I get more confused and have more questions. So I'm going to ramble for a moment as I try to give my thoughts on the matter (again). How does Dumbledore know the Philosopher's Stone is in danger? Okay, perhaps Quirrel/Voldemort tries to get at Flamel. As bboy_mn points out above, Flamel has had about 700 years to come up with all sorts of protections against any attempts to steal the Philosopher's Stone. Quirrel/Voldemort was obviously unsuccessful because of all the wonderful protections. Now, attempts to get at the stone are probably common to Flamel, so why would this particular attempt draw attention? Maybe Voldemort was able to get closer to the stone than anyone else, alarming Flamel into contacting Dumbledore on the matter. Or maybe something about the manner in which the attempt was made caused little alarm bells to go off in his head, like maybe some thought was actually put into the plan to steal it rather than just some hopeful hack who hadn't thought through a plan. Now here is where I really need help: Was the Philosopher's Stone at Gringott's to begin with? Did Flamel move it there after an attempt was made on it? If the Stone was already at Gringott's, why was it there? Clearly Gringott's is quite safe (see discussion above), but wouldn't Flamel need the stone to make the Elixir of Life every so often? Plus, if Flamel had so many means of guarding everything to do with the stone, wouldn't it be safest with him? But then again, there's always the off chance that some fool is going to get lucky and manage to get through the safeguards, or someone exceptionally brilliant will find a means to get at it. Still assuming the stone was at Gringott's when Flamel and Dumbledore learned that someone was trying to steal it, then yes, they correctly felt it would be safer in Dumbledore's care. Hagrid picks up the stone when Harry goes to Diagon Alley. So now, what if the stone was not removed to Gringott's until after a particularly clever attempt is made to get at Flamel? Why would it go there rather than directly to Dumbledore? Did they initially believe that the Stone would be perfectly safe in Gringott's as they had no reason to believe otherwise? Were they tipped off that someone may try to rob the vault? Perhaps Gringott's was just a short resting place for the Stone while they worked out the details of safely transporting it from Nicholas Flamel to Dumbledore. Maybe they thought someone was tracking Flamel and the Stone and therefore would know it had been removed to the bank. Flamel and Dumbledore would then want the stone out of there as soon as possible no matter how safe Gringott's was. It would be safer with Dumbledore at Hogwarts (so they think as they've no idea that the DADA teacher is infested with Voldeomort). Actually, (countering my own statement here) they were right because Quirrel/Voldemort never got the stone and if Dumbledore had left it in the bank, Q/V would definitely have gotten it. At first I entertained the notion that maybe no one knew that someone was after the PS until after the attempted robbery at Gringott's, that maybe Dumbledore's moving the stone was coincidence, something he and Flamel had been planning. Then I rolled my eyes at myself (a difficult thing to do without a mirror in front of me) because that's just ludicrous. There's no way that Dumbledore set up all those defenses at Hogwarts for the stone without some reason. Plus, moving the stone right before someone tries to steal it is WAY too big a coincidence to swallow, even for gullible me. I just threw that last bit in there to show you all that my mind is going every which way with this topic. KathyK (getting dizzy thinking in circles) From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 08:54:41 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 08:54:41 -0000 Subject: If you can't see where it keeps its brain... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ratalman" wrote: > In CoS, Arthur Weasley upon hearing of Tom Riddle's diary, tells > Ginny: "Never trust anything that can think for itself if you can't > see where it keeps its brain!" The problem is that this same > description aptly fits two other prominent magical entities: the > sorting hat and the marauders map. As we know (presumably) > that these are not the handiwork of dark wizards, I don't think that > we should fear them, but I wonder if JKR is hinting that all is not > as it seems with one or the other. > > Robyn Arthur Weasley is just giving a general rule to live by. Ginny didn't know anything about the diary when it began writing back to her. She shouldn't have trusted it. The Sorting Hat, on the other hand, has a 1000 year history with Hogwarts and as far as we know hasn't done anything that shows it to be untrustworthy. Presumably a headmaster would remove it from its duties if it did (can it "do" things?) or said something questionable. That being said, I read a thread at some point (not exactly sure when but not too long ago) about the possibility of an Evil!Sorting Hat. I rather liked the idea, so I'm not saying that the hat is completely exempt from Mr. Weasley's statement. But I'll bet he'd see it as an exception to his rule. The Marauder's Map is different. When Harry first encounters the Map, a gift from Fred and George, he recalls Mr. Weasley's words regarding Riddle's Diary and thinks of it as a dangerous magical object (PoA 194, US). Thus far it has not been dangerous but he didn't know that. He used his knowledge that Fred and George had been using it for years without any sort of danger, so he dismissed it. He's lucky that it didn't turn out to be evil like the diary. So it would seem then this would be another exception to the general rule about thinking objects with hidden brains. I agree that this general rule could easily be a hint about the Hat, the Map, or some other future object Harry will encounter. Hopefully, I haven't babbled too much. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 09:03:50 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 09:03:50 -0000 Subject: Silly Questions (that may never be answered) In-Reply-To: <3F2B0FA8.4090204@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > Did Harry get a reward for the captured Death Eaters? A reward for the > death of the wanted criminal, Sirius Black? (That would ad insult to > injury, but perhaps he could give the money to Lupin and tell him to buy > some new clothes.. or give it to Snape and tell him to buy some shampoo?) > > > Jazmyn I have a question for this question. Other than the folks in the Order and the DE's, who knows that Sirius is dead? Are any of these people likely to tell the Ministry that he is dead? I've been wondering this as people have been discussing what happens to Sirius' house, Kreacher, his money now that he's dead. What if no one tells any official that he's dead? Would anyone believe them, anyway? There's no body, after all. I could see if they had evidence to clear Sirius' name, the Order may come forward with the information and inform the WW that Sirius died fighting a DE. Maybe the Death Eaters will leak the information to hurt Harry. Or Narcissa really wants 12 Grimmauld Place. I don't know... I don't see any reason why the general public or the Ministry would know that Sirius is dead. KathyK From jane_starr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 04:25:34 2003 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2003 21:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] And I thought I had it figured. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030802042534.53831.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74840 --- scooting2win wrote: > The wand with > Neville, he really needs to get a new one, but why > would his gran > let him use his dad's wand to begin with, why not > get him one to > start with. What was so important about that wand? What, waste a perfectly good wand? This is a woman who has been wearing the same moth-eaten fox fur and vulture-topped hat probably for decades. She paid good money for that wand and expects to get her money's worth, since her poor son is not able to use it himself. That wand was good enough for dear Frank and it will be good enough for his son. Besides, I bet anything (although with no actual evidence at all) that Mrs. Longbottom senior isn't really all that well off - an excellent and influential old wizarding family with lots of property and family heirlooms and probably not much cash, and does the WW have an equivalent to the National Health, or does she have to pay for Frank and Alice's upkeep at St. Mungo's? ===== JES Canada __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Sat Aug 2 11:09:37 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:09:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP, FF: Ron/Harry rift? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F2B9BF1.7030503@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 74841 samnanya wrote (2003-08-02 03:39): >[...] > >The first and most significant wedge is Ron becoming prefect instead >of Harry. Hermione's glee when she sees Harry holding the badge and >thinking that it was Harry that became the prefect was brilliantly >shown by JKR in her shrieking reaction and the simple line "Me too, >Harry, me too!" > >The sheer joy she expresses in those five words is amazing. She is >VERY disappointed when she finds out that it is Ron instead of Harry. > > Here is the quote: "The door banged open. Hermione came tearing into the room, her cheeks flushed and her hair flying. There was an envelope in her hand. 'Did you - did you get - ?' She spotted the badge in Harry's hand and let out a shriek. 'I knew it!' she said excitedly, brandishing her letter. 'Me too, Harry, me too!' 'No,' said Harry quickly, pushing the badge back into Ron's hand. 'It's Ron, not me.' 'It - what?' 'Ron's prefect, not me,' Harry said. 'Ron?' said Hermione, her jaw dropping. 'But . . . are you sure? I mean - ' She turned red as Ron looked round at her with a defiant expression on his face 'It's my name on the letter,' he said. 'I . . .' said Hermione, looking thoroughly bewildered. 'I . . . well . . . wow! Well done, Ron! That's really - ' 'Unexpected,' said George, nodding. 'No,' said Hermione, blushing harder than ever, 'no it's not . . . Ron's done loads of . . . he's really . . .'" Now, what we have here: Hermione gets a prefect badge, wants to boast with it before boys. Enters room, 'Did you [get Hogwarts letters]? see prefect badge in Harry's hand: 'I knew it!' 'Me too, Harry, me too!' Harry denies, Hermione's jaw drops [from astonishment]. Ron looks at Hermione, she turns red [oh, what a major faux pas -- she thinks]; Confused Hermione [Oh, I just seriously insulted Ron -- she thinks], try to make amends: I . . . well . . . wow! Well done, Ron! That's really - ' 'Unexpected,' interjects George. Hermione blush even harder [Harry was safe bet, but Ron has his virtues -- she thinks], speaks this out: 'no it's not . . . Ron's done loads of . . . he's really . . .' Nope, no disapointment here. I respectfully submit this to be a pro R/H moment. Especially Hermione's defence of Ron. Regards -- Pshemekan From arobotti at lightspeedcommunications.net Sat Aug 2 11:11:06 2003 From: arobotti at lightspeedcommunications.net (Anne Robotti) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 07:11:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: <4f.3269b12d.2c5ca4d1@aol.com> Message-ID: <002001c358e6$c4bc4120$8900a8c0@ANNE> No: HPFGUIDX 74842 Snape staggered; his wand flew upward, away from Harry - and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his - *a hook-nosed man* was shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner .... Now me: I think this was Snape's father and mother, and the little boy crying in the corner was Snape. Anne From mkeller01 at alltel.net Sat Aug 2 11:27:43 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:27:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74843 > >Also, while JKR may not be giving away her hand in that paragraph, > >what is she doing with interview comments suggesting that the > >tension is between Ron and Hermione, in response to a question about > >Hermione and Harry getting involved? > > GEO: Tension does not equal future relationship. Imo the R/H shippers > are playing right into her hands by believing that the Katie Couric > interview was a confirmation on her part. If anything that was a > dodge by Rowling. Ms. Rowling strikes me as a fair player. She's laid her clues, it's up to us. In interviews she either tells you that she's not going to answer the question, or she avoids answering it. I watched that interview again today (have it on tape) and while she didn't directly answer the question, the look on that woman's face when she questioned Katie Couric's choice of Harry and Hermione as, uh, snoggers put a rather nice sized hole in the H/H ship for me. I'm an H/G shipper, but would have been ok with H/H in the end. Heck, I just want the boy to be happy. >> GEO: The H/G ship is pretty much sunk since Ginny has grown out of > her crush. If it even begins then it begins incredibly flawed since > the two are forced together by Ron who wants them to date at the end > of Ootp. If anything else Ginny still sees Harry as the champion who > banished Voldemort as a baby and when she got a glimpse of the very > real and angry Harry she didn't like it all. See, I saw this completely different. Ginny is over her hero- worship crush. She sees Harry with all his flaws. The stage is set for true love to enter the picture. I actually have more hope for an H/G romance after reading OotP. They wouldn't have stood a chance if Ginny fell in love with the Boy Who Lived. Of course, we can speculate until the cows come home. Ain't over till the fat lady sings (oops--wrong thread.) JKR has set a precedence for school romances turning into marriage down the line (James/Lily, Arthur/Molly), and I believe she is doing that now. As to who that may be, we won't know for sure until the end of book 7. Until then, whatever their condition, all ships are sailing. Toad From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Aug 2 11:37:33 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:37:33 -0000 Subject: Dobby Vs. Kreacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Remember what Dobby said, that in the heyday of Voldemort's first > reign, house-elves were treated like vermin. Have you really stopped > and tried to understand the full impact of that statement. Let me give > you a hint. When we were young we used to go out to the city dump, and > shoot rats for the fun of it. In that vein, I can see wizards elf > hunting or for target practice while they learn spells or torturing > them just for the sport of it. That's what it means to be treated like > vermin. > We don't have to use our imagination too much to find such instances in real life, either. There was an awful story out of the Congo, where things are so bad "civil war" isn't even a sufficient word to describe what's going on. Apparently, pygmy-hunting and cannibalism have become a fad there amongst the armed thugs running around. Lest anyone think this is just an urban legend, here is a link to the story on the AP wire: http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/news/world/5919720.htm Gruesome. Makes The Quibbler's allegations that Fudge baked goblins into pies almost seem level-headed! Wanda From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 11:39:48 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:39:48 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Risti" wrote: > > "What's the point," [Ron] said dully, "We've got about as much > chance of winning the Quidditch Cup this year as Dad's got of > becoming Minister of Magic."(pg 575 British) snip > "The Minister for Magic will never employ Harry Potter!' said > Umbridge, her voice rising furiously. > > "There may well be a new Minister for Magic by the time Potter is > ready to join!" shouted Professor McGonagall.(pg 586 British) > > So...I know where I'm putting my bet, how about you? > > ~Risti Talisman, who is getting dizzy staring at the gleaming gold symbols cavorting around on that peacock blue ceiling, replies: I'm plunking my Galleons down with you, Risti. Arthur for Minister. Is there some lovely new (non-bureaucratic) position for Harry? Or at least for his head, if these decapitation signals don't stop. Something that requires his flashing green eyes and that glowing (oh, thank you JK) "talisman" in his chest? Talisman, who is picking out the new statuary now. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Aug 2 11:41:28 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 11:41:28 -0000 Subject: If you can't see where it keeps its brain... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74846 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > The Marauder's Map is different. When Harry first encounters the > Map, a gift from Fred and George, he recalls Mr. Weasley's words > regarding Riddle's Diary and thinks of it as a dangerous magical > object (PoA 194, US). Thus far it has not been dangerous but he > didn't know that. He used his knowledge that Fred and George had > been using it for years without any sort of danger, so he dismissed > it. He's lucky that it didn't turn out to be evil like the diary. > So it would seem then this would be another exception to the general > rule about thinking objects with hidden brains. > I agree that this general rule could easily be a hint about the Hat, > the Map, or some other future object Harry will encounter. > The Map worried me, too. When Snape confronts Lupin about it, not only does he correctly deduce where it came from, he says that it is plainly full of Dark Magic (don't have his exact words, sorry, book not handy). Is he just being histrionic, or is he right? I always wondered just how James & Co. actually made the Map, especially if it took Dark Magic to do so. You'd think Snape would be quite an expert on Dark Arts, and would recognize it when he sees it. Wanda From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 12:00:40 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:00:40 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74847 Risti:""What's the point," [Ron] said dully, "We've got about as much chance of winning the Quidditch Cup this year as Dad's got of becoming Minister of Magic... And of course, we all know Ron's a Seer in denial." I've floated that idea myself, that the form Ron's Seerdom takes is that when he thinks he's making up a prophecy he is in fact making a real one (there seems to be something about prophecy in literature that you can't make one consciously), but we haven't seen much to confirm it. It's fun to imagine, though, and a source of countless fic bunnies. Risti, quoting the 'Career Advice' chapter:"The Minister for Magic will never employ Harry Potter!' said Umbridge, her voice rising furiously. "There may well be a new Minister for Magic by the time Potter is ready to join!" shouted Professor McGonagall." This isn't prophecy, it's prediction. We're not clear how the wizard world picks its leaders, but in any kind of parliamentary system, Fudge would have a vote of no confidence in no time flat. I'd hate to be in his shoes at the next Question time, at least. You'd expect that Fudge (Neville Chamberlain) would be replaced by Dumbledore (Churchill). Dumbledore has decided instead to make Hogwarts the center of resistance to Voldemort and I'm sure he's right. It certainly has shown itself more secure than the Ministry. But Arthur Weasley? He's never been a politician, or a high official. Has he got the experience or the standing with the public? If he does become MoM, he'll be there as Dumbledore's representative. I would like to see Arthur with a role of his own. None of this is against Arthur, who is everything I admire, but he's got a role to play of his own in the Order and the wizard world; perhaps the new Minister of Muggle Protection in the War Cabinet. I don't know who would be MoM, but we know who's going to lead the wizard world through the War. Jim F. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 2 12:12:36 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:12:36 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deb" wrote: > Snape intentionally made Harry get a zero in Potions, when Harry > obviously made it correctly. > > I think it was a good lesson for Harry to learn - even if you do it > right, do not leave your work unattended in the face of those who you > do not trust. But Harry is forever being called a prejudiced, ungrateful brat on this list for failing to trust Snape. Yet here he shows the barest, teeniest amount of trust -- he trusts Snape to perform his teaching job to minimum requirements -- and you're arguing that he shouldn't have done it, and must immediately be taught that he made a mistake? In fact, the most common criticism that's been directed at Harry for five books now, and OOP in particular, is that he fails to trust and rely on other people when he should. He keeps important information to himself when he should share it. He doesn't go for help when help is available. He runs off to handle crises on his own, when other people are better suited. Why does Snape get praised for teaching Harry to be paranoid and distrustful, and then Harry gets pilloried for *being* paranoid and distrustful? If Snape hadn't done such a good job instilling this supposedly necessary "lesson," Harry might've actually gone to him after receiving the fake vision of Sirius being tortured, instead of feeling that he had to handle the situation entirely on his own. > > I bet Harry will never just drop off his potion and turn away > again. And why, exactly, is this a good thing. > > I bet Harry will never make a potion outside of class and leave it > unattended. Harry didn't leave his potion unattended. He left it with Snape, whose job was to attend it. I bet Harry will never trust Snape to behave in a fair or non- malicious manner. And, sure enough, Harry doesn't. > > But, we don't know (yet) whether Snape enjoyed doing it because he is > mean, or whether he did it because of "tough love" or whether the > truth is a bit of both. If Snape really believes he's doing Harry good by treating him like this, then he's dangerously deluded and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near Harry ever again. Is this really what Harry (or any other child) needs to be taught? That he should never, ever, put the smallest trust into anyone, even in people who have specifically been placed in positions of trust? That everyone around him must be treated with suspicion, that every human interaction he engages in, no matter how minor, must be closely monitored for potential betrayal, that rules are meaningless because you can't expect other people to follow them? Sounds like a perfect recipe for creating the next Dark Lord to me. If, fifty years from now, the Wizarding World is cowering in the shadows, afraid to speak Harry Potter's name, they'll have Severus Snape and his "tough love" to thank. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 12:25:54 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:25:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading (just got long) In-Reply-To: <1EBE53EE-C423-11D7-94B0-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: > Pen writes: > [The current UK equivalent to O-Levels, the GCSEs, *do* > > have a considerable element of course-work included in the final > > grades. > > > > Valky replies: > > > > there is a possibility that the course work is involved. > > Pen Replies: > > Why bring it up, then? > Valky writes: > >>> Longer answer; A response like this it appears to me, actually begs the question. > > Does **Snape** know that only the OWLs count on Harry's marks. > >> > > Pen Replies: > > Of course he does. > > > > Valky replies: > > Very well then if that's all you wish to say on the matter. > > It doesn't really seem worth debating the notion that the Hogwarts > Potions Master has so little idea what is involved with the OWLs that he doesn't know whether the marks he awards count towards the OWLs or not. > Valky: Well it did in the context of "Why did he set the test then?". But out of this context it flails in this precise way. Now its been pulled out of context and turned demonstration of my debate incompetence I have nothing more to say. I assume that you do not either Pen? > >>> > >>> Why? oh why??? Would he bother awarding a zero or even setting the test if it has no effect on the kids marks. > >>> Sheeesh!!! > >> > >> Huh? > >> Valky notes Pens initial friendliness. *In* the context of her next statements. > >> How about, personal satisfaction for Snape, who wanted to upset > > Harry? > > > > Valky's Reply: > > Are you saying thats a fair award for Harry's work then? > > Certainly not, and I have no idea how you could deduce such a thing > from what I did say. Valky: The fact that fairness is dismissed in the argument. Is Snapes personal satisfaction excuse enough for unfair behaviour? Pen Continues: You asked why he would bother awarding a zero, or even setting the test, if it has no effect on the marks; I offered a possible answer. It is so patently obvious that Snape is not giving Harry the fair reward for his work that I did not think it necessary to mention it. > > Ok So how is that an argument that Snape grades fairly? > >> How about, he could pretty well tell from the appearance of the > > potion that it would get a good mark, and he couldn't bring himself to award one (reasons might vary from spite to a deep-cover > > disguise). > > > > Valky's original reply: > > Snape dropped the potion in a deliberate act of spite. Cover schmover, Blah blah blah.... > Pen: > Again, I don't think much of your tone. Valky: Nah me either. Pen: I offered a possible answer to your 'Why? >His motive for not wishing to award a good mark might vary from spite to deep-cover disguise - interpretation of motives will vary from reader to reader. Valky: The question was "Why set the test in the first place?" Pen adds: Which, incidentally, is why Snape is such a fascinating character. Valky: Please mind you don't inadvertantly accuse me of ignorance again. Pen: > >> In this respect his action is ambiguous - I mean, Snape-loathers can assume that he is a mean-spirited git, while at the same time > >> Snape-lovers can assume that he knows perfectly well Harry has > > achieved competence, but for reasons of policy must maintain the anti-Harry front by giving him a zero, secure in the knowledge that it > > makes no difference to the important OWL results. > > Valky: Blah Blah about me... defending my reasoning as *not* representative of a difficulty grasping that Snape is intriguing and one fabulous part of the books. > > > > What I am trying to relate is that the boundary you have drawn in > > your above statement demonstrates a disregard for the truth. > > What? > You painted a line between Snape lovers and loathers assuming each could only come to one conclusion. It just jarred me that's all. I don't loathe any characters in the HP books (except maybe Umbridge) and I have found the term Snape-Loather to be too conveniently slung at anyone who wants to debate that Snape might be bad. If you insist that it wasn't a slur aimed in my direction I accept your explanation. Pen: > Trying, charitably, to assume that you are not being rude on purpose, I have to ask you why my belief that Snape's action is ambiguous is grounds for you to accuse me of lying. Valky: Not lying just leaning too heavily on a conventional untruth. Valky: > > _Told ya I wanted to pick a fight_ :b > Pen: > Yes, but I really don't see why you decided to pick it with me. > I'm not at all impressed. > > Pen wrote ended her introductory post thus and wonders why *I* picked a fight? > >> As to why he would bother setting a test if it had no effect on the OWL grades, *****well, teachers do need some means of assessing their students' progress, don't they?******** > > This seems to be Snape's method: get the kids to make a potion and > > see how well they've done it. ******Seems entirely reasonable to me.******* Not that I learned Potions, but when I was studying for my O-Levels, teachers did tend to set us work, and mark it... > >> > >> Pen Valky: ............................................................... ...................... From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 12:30:34 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:30:34 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Risti:""What's the point," [Ron] said dully, "We've got about as muchchance of winning the Quidditch Cup this year as Dad's got of becoming Minister of Magic... And of course, we all know Ron's a Seer in denial." > Jim said: > If he does become MoM, he'll be there as Dumbledore's representative. I would like to see Arthur with a role of his own. >"snip" >[H]e's got a role to play of his own in the Order and the wizard world; perhaps the new Minister of Muggle Protection in the War Cabinet. > Jim F. Talisman, who thinks if Fudge is qualified to be Minister so is Winky, says: I'm not clear on how you see Arthur as merely Dumbledore's representative if he is Minister of Magic, but his own man if he holds a subordinate post as Minister of Muggle Protection. Also, it seems to me that there are other characters who need to be freed from Dumbledore's great shadow, particularly Harry. What makes you think Dumbledore survives the war? From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 2 06:48:42 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 06:48:42 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > When it came down to a moment of real crisis, Harry was running > around like a chicken with it's head cut off, and as usual, took > matters into his own hands. This seemed rather like plucky aplomb in > the earlier books, but this time it struck me as totally > irresponsible and selfish. Then Harry has the audacity to blame Snape > for the whole fiasco. Harry acted on the base of incomplete information about the person he viewed as a father substitute. He was also 15 years old. I have a son who turned 15 in July and I can assure you that expecting kids that age to act mature and responsible - especially when they are going through a very difficult time to start with - is asking a bit much. As for blaming Snape, well, Harry felt that Snape goaded Sirius all along and that that goading might have induced him to leave the house on that fatefull night. He may also have felt (and justly so) that Snape failed his task of teaching him Occlumency - first because he did not fully explain what the purpose was (no mention of LV trying to implant false visions to induce Harry to get to the MoM even though the OoP must have known this was a possibility); second because he refused to teach him after the pensieve incident. So after months of Snape enjoying Harry's most embarassing and miserable memories, the teacher throws a fit and kicks the student out because he turned the tables on him. Harry is not perfect (the story would be horribly boring if he were :-)) and what happened was not Snape's fault, but Snape's actions definitely contributed to the situation. > Harry is the one who couldn't put his feelings aside! Nor could Snape when the positions were switched. Compare Harry's behaviour when Snape was experiencing his memories to Snape's behaviour when Harry was doing the same. Who was throwing cans at who, exactly? > Don't get me wrong, I am very fond of Harry, but after OoP, I respect > him less. Considering all the abuse that the poor kid was experiencing throughout that year (being branded publicly as a crazy lying attention seeking kid; losing the support of his trusted adults - DD, Hagrid, Sirius; having an evil DADA teacher with a vandetta against him; losing his godfather to what he felt was his own fault, etc.) I think he did remarkably well. Even the fight in the MoM was a success - LV did not get the prophecy, a bunch of DE's were captured and LV had to reveal himself before he was ready. Salit From ktd7 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 07:17:43 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 07:17:43 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Risti" wrote: > "What's the point," [Ron] said dully, "We've got about as much > chance of winning the Quidditch Cup this year as Dad's got of > becoming Minister of Magic."(pg 575 British) > > And of course, we all know Ron's a Seer in denial. > > Furthermore, > > "The Minister for Magic will never employ Harry Potter!' said > Umbridge, her voice rising furiously. > > "There may well be a new Minister for Magic by the time Potter is > ready to join!" shouted Professor McGonagall. > > (pg 586 British) > > So...I know where I'm putting my bet, how about you? Since Gryffindor won the cup, I'd say that Ron's batting .500 at this point, so I expect to see Arthur Weasley as MoM before the end of book 7, anyway!!! Karen From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 09:48:55 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 09:48:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's Future Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74853 What do you think is Harry's future? We know he talked to McGonagall about being an Auror. But somehow I don't think his heart was in it. Seems to me that he really liked planning the lessons for the DA. And he's always considered Hogwarts to be his home. It would be poetic justice if he became the DADA teacher. "Donna" From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 10:11:45 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 10:11:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's dad In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lucchaser" wrote: > > > carlisle32002: > > If James Potter is supposed to be a decent guy, why do he and his > pals (Lupin, Sirius) torment and pick on Snape during their time at > hogwarts? Lily had the decency to tell him to stop. James looked a > bit like Malfoy does now. I don't understand. >> > > K (Kathryn): > > Then you've clearly never met a 15 year old boy. James and Sirius > were popular, good looking, sporting heroes (well James was anyway, > not sure about Sirius' quidditch prowess) hence they picked on the > unpopular kids. Is it a nice thing to do? No of course it isn't, but > teenagers are like that. > At some point after the memory we see they presumably grew up > (personally I think it was the Shack Incident that did it). >>> > > Lucchaser: > I agree with K. I just want to add the to the fact that we don't > know the whole story with James, Sirius and Snape. We just got a little > glimse of what they were like when they were younger (at that > perfect age of 15). There is more to it, so we really can't judge James and > Sirius on that one scene. For all we know, judging on how Snape was > defending himself, Snape could have done some horrible things to > James, Sirius and company too. > Let's not forget the fact that memories are always subjective. Harry was seeing the incident through Snape's recollection. Snape may have embellished the memory to make James and company seem worse than they were. The incident is valid. James and Sirius being 15 and popular, were most probably arrogant and just a bit bullying. With each of our own memories, when we have experienced difficult times, don't we project the worst on to our antagonists? Doesn't Snape make the incident come across as unprovoked? Admittedly, Lupin does tell Harry that the incident did happen. But he did not go into details and he also tried to reassure Harry that James was really a good person. He does let Harry know that Snape and James were basically enemies since they started at Hogwarts. Who knows what provoked the incident. This is the first real glimpse of what James and Lily were like. Perhaps Harry will get the chance to find out more about James and his family. Seems to me that Remus still has a large part to play in this tale. Perhaps JKR will let Harry and Remus have the time to discuss James. I, for one, am most curious to know more about James' family. Was James a pure blood wizard? There are clues as to him being a very talented wizard. Is there a possiblity that through James, Harry and Voldemort have a familial connection? Is that why Voldemort chose Harry rather than Neville? Both of their parents defeated Voldemort three times. I think Voldemort would be concerned with someone from his own family line inheriting his own capabilities. After all, his mother was a witch. Could she have been in the Potter family line? Wouldn't it make sense that when Voldemort transferred some of his own power to Harry, that it was because of shared blood lines? Voldemort chose Harry when he could have also picked Neville. That implies a knowledge of James and Lily. And I think it was more than the fact that they were in the first Order of the Phoenix. And the wands were brothers. Wizards can use other wizard's wands. Look at Ron, his own first wand was a hand-me-down. I think the connection was more than just the sharing of the Phoenix feather. "Donna" From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 12:41:25 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:41:25 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading (just got long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > > wrote: > > Rubbish! He deliberately > > > caused Harry to recieve a failed grade in his class. > > > Right or wrong that's what happened isn't it. > > >June: > > Yes - and even the most hardened Snape advocate cannot logically > > explain this as otherwise. > > > > One at least one occassion I suggeted specifically that Snape is > fair when it counts and only when it counts. I don't don't think > course work count. Therefore the unfair grade doesn't count. > > Snape is mean, I never denied that. I just think he is also fair > about the things he considers important. He really should be fair > about everything, but then he wouldn't be Snape. > > bibphile Valky: _Fair_ enough :b This counts for when a grading isn't a grading. Why the heck do these gradings exist though? From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 06:41:07 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 06:41:07 -0000 Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74856 > > On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 09:06 PM, T.M. Sommers wrote: > > > In Myrtle's case, I did not get the impression that any magic was > > used to get her to stop haunting; she was just ordered to. > --Random832 wrote: > yes, but that doesn't mean that had she disobeyed that order there > would necessarily not have been consequences What can they do to her? She is already dead and confined to a public restroom. Olaf From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 12:55:04 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:55:04 -0000 Subject: Houses (was:Re: Thestral Boy) In-Reply-To: <280A6028-C4BB-11D7-9AD2-0003939A0BA2@rcbooks.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Random wrote: The boggart scene from PoA seems to imply otherwise. I'll give you that we (and harry) only seem to know three names... > I don't think so. I think the boggart was just confused aand changinging at random. We have reference to Slytherins he doesn't know and Hufflepuffs whose names he isn't sure of (in his classes). I think there'd be a passing reference to Gryffindor girls he doesn't know. I just see no way the houses could always come up even. The number of students probably isn't always divisable by four. And even if it were, I don't think there'd always be the exact same number of students in each house. bibphile From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Aug 2 13:05:50 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:05:50 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: . > > Harry acted on the base of incomplete information about the person > he viewed as a father substitute. He also KNEW that his information was incomplete; it was one of his main complaints throughout the year, that people were hiding things from him. But instead of inspiring caution, he decided that what he knew was enough anyway and went off half-cocked. > He was also 15 years old. So is Hermione, and she had enough brains to know that as you don't drive a car 100 mph on a foggy night on a winding mountain road, you shouldn't go running off into dangerous situations when you don't have a clear idea of what's going on. As for blaming Snape, well, Harry felt that > Snape goaded Sirius all along and that that goading might have > induced him to leave the house on that fatefull night. Oh, please. Harry saw one incident in August. Sirius met his death in June of the following year. It's ridiculous to think that the two are connected, and we just don't know what he and Snape may have been talking about in the meantime, if they even talked at all. He may > also have felt (and justly so) that Snape failed his task of > teaching him Occlumency - first because he did not fully explain > what the purpose was (no mention of LV trying to implant false > visions to induce Harry to get to the MoM even though the OoP > must have known this was a possibility); I would think that that was just one of many possibilities. And Harry didn't have to be told that Voldemort might use his access to Harry's mind to get him to do things - he figured that out himself and suggested it to Snape during their conversation. second because he refused > to teach him after the pensieve incident. So after months of > Snape enjoying Harry's most embarassing and miserable memories, the > teacher throws a fit and kicks the student out because he turned > the tables on him. There is absolutely no evidence that Snape was getting any enjoyment whatsoever out of Harry's memories. Unlike Harry, he doesn't demonstrate the least curiosity about Harry's personal life. Seeing Harry's memories was a part of the job, and if Harry had done his homework it would have ended a lot sooner, probably to the relief of both. > > Nor could Snape when the positions were switched. Compare > Harry's behaviour when Snape was experiencing his memories > to Snape's behaviour when Harry was doing the same. Who was > throwing cans at who, exactly? Their positions were never switched. Snape was doing what he was supposed to do; Harry was snooping where he had no business to be. > Wanda From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 13:11:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:11:24 -0000 Subject: Silly Questions (that may never be answered) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74859 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > > Did Harry get a reward for the captured Death Eaters? > > > >A reward for the death of the wanted criminal, Sirius Black? > > ..edited... > > > > Jazmyn > > ... Other than the folks in the > Order and the DE's, who knows that Sirius is dead? Are any of these > people likely to tell the Ministry that he is dead? ...edited... > I don't see any reason why the general public or the Ministry would > know that Sirius is dead. > > KathyK bboy_mn: A good point to ponder. I don't think the Order has any desire to make Sirius's death into public or private knowledge. By private information, I mean they won't tell the Ministry unofficially, or anyone else who doesn't have a valid need to know relative to the continued effective operation of the Order. My particulat vision of what will happen, is the they will try to clear Sirius's name first. I envision them doing this the same way they cleared Harry's name in the current book. They get Rita Skeeter to write another story. A story based on a direct interview with Harry that explains the details and circumstances around his parents death. I can see it starting with Harry saying something like, you finally believed me when I gave you the details of Voldemort's return, now I'm asking you to trust me again. No one has more reason to hate Sirius Black that me, Harry Potter, but I swear to you he is innocent and here is why .... (insert very sympathetic and heart wrenching account of his dearly beloved Godfather's misfortune and fate not including his death. An account concluding with Harry's statement of deep love, respect, and affection for Sirius. What reader could resist a story like that; action, intrigue, mystery, plot twists, heart felt emotions, and love. Just one small catch. Hermione only made Rita Skeeter keep he 'poison pen' silent for one year. That one year is over. So Rita has lost some incentive to cooperate with Hermione and Harry. However, Hermione does still have the unregistered animagus knowledge to hold over Rita's head. Perhaps Rita has learned her lesson. Perhaps the acclaim she got for having an exclusive interview with Harry, and being the first reporter to dare to go against the trend and report the truth, and for being the reporter to first break the story of Voldemort's return in detail will have shown her that the true is far more powerful than lies. She has the additional boost to her (and Harry's) credability because part of that story has now been confirmed because some of the named previously cleared DE's have been caught in the act of a crime executed on Voldemort's behalf. If nothing else, the Death Eater Masks were a dead give away. Once they have Sirius's name cleared or at least have public sympathy on their side, they can work behind the scenes to resolve the estate. I'm wondering if the introduction of Phineas Nigellus wasn't partly because JRK will need someone to give a final ruling on the disposition of Black's estate. Once they have the estate resolved behind the scenes, the can them make it public knowledge that Sirius is dead. First and foremost, there is absolute no reasonfor and several disadvantages to the order releasing the news of Sirius's death. They have no incentive for releasing this information until such time as they can make it work to their advantage. THE DEATH EATER CAPTURE REWARDS- This issue is really getting to me, I swear I become more pschotically obssessed with it everyday. I will simply be furious if the Ministry does not make good on it's offer of G1,000 per death eater (G=symbol for Galleons, should actually look like the General Mills 'G' logo), and they should still get the G1,000 for the capture of the DE's like Malfoy who were not escaped prisoners. A captured DE is a captured DE; escaped or not. If the money is offerred to Harry, I suspect he will insist that everyone who was involved (other students and Order members) get an equal share of the reward. Although I think certain members like Moody will decline. The implication is that there were about 10 DE's present, most but not all of them were caught, and some of them were not Azkaban escaped DE's. I don't think Moody or Kingsley will accept their share of the reward. So, let's round it off to 8 bad guys captured by 8 good guys; that G1,000 each. Worst case, estimate 6 escaped DE's and 10 good guys' that's G600 each. 1,000 galleons is about US$7,500. 600 galleons is about US$4,500. Either way, that will be like a small fortune to Ron and Lupin, and it certainly won't be small potatoes to the other members. Just a thought. bboy_mn From p_yanna at hotmail.com Sat Aug 2 13:20:32 2003 From: p_yanna at hotmail.com (frumenta) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:20:32 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: >> > Nor could Snape when the positions were switched. Compare > Harry's behaviour when Snape was experiencing his memories > to Snape's behaviour when Harry was doing the same. Who was > throwing cans at who, exactly? > Salit That is a cheap shot. Harry turned the tables when he did the Protego spell and broke into Snape's memories. Snape told him that it was effective and made no mention of the incident. Just as he didn't gloat over Harry's unpleasant memories that he got to see. Snape threw things at Harry when he found the brat inside his Pensieve, violating his privacy in a truly appalling way. And I can't say I blame him for reacting the way he did. Mim > From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 13:21:22 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:21:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione, Ginny & Ron (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74861 Geo:"Tension does not equal future relationship. Imo the R/H shippers are playing right into her hands by believing that the Katie Couric interview was a confirmation on her part. If anything that was a dodge by Rowling." Absolutely. JKR is the Knight Commander of the Order of the Red Herring. I've never seen anybody better at keeping everybody guessing, bless her heart. Toad:"Ms. Rowling strikes me as a fair player. She's laid her clues, it's up to us. In interviews she either tells you that she's not going to answer the question, or she avoids answering it. I watched that interview again today (have it on tape) and while she didn't directly answer the question, the look on that woman's face when she questioned Katie Couric's choice of Harry and Hermione as, uh, snoggers put a rather nice sized hole in the H/H ship for me. I'm an H/G shipper, but would have been ok with H/H in the end. Heck, I just want the boy to be happy." I'm an H/H shipper because time and again Harry and Hermione are perfect for each other, but I started out as an H/G shipper and still have a soft spot for it, so you, Toad, and I are not opponents, but mirror images: THE CASE FOR HARRY AND GINNY Toad:"See, I [see] this completely different [than GEO does]. Ginny is over her hero- worship crush. She sees Harry with all his flaws. The stage is set for true love to enter the picture. I actually have more hope for an H/G romance after reading OotP. They wouldn't have stood a chance if Ginny fell in love with the Boy Who Lived." I agree completely. H/G would never work if she was in little girlish infatuation. Now we see Ginny growing up in a really good way. This girl's head is screwed on straight. She's her own person, and I like how she's integrated Fred and George into herself. She has the gumption and character for a complex guy like Harry. Ron wants it, FWIW, and he's Harry's best friend. I absolutely do not believe that Ron's promoting H/G to leave Hermione clear for him; I am sure Ron is completely sincere in wanting to see his sister and his best friend together for both their sakes, which brings us to a mine-field concept in the shipping lexicon: ONE BIG HAPPY WEASLEY FAMILY OBHWF is a minefield in shipping debate, beginning with a double R/H and H/G wedding, and everybody living happily ever after on Walton - er, Weasley - Mountain. Many shippers find it too corny and saccharine for words, but I don't. Harry's going to be beat to hell at the end of the war, wounded, in mind and probably body, exhausted, and more stressed than anyone should ever be. He'll need all the support he can get, and most people would count themselves blessed to be in the bosom of a family like the Weasleys, who know him, love him, and understand him. Love is the greatest power in the Universe, and the deepest mystery in the Department of Mysteries. Where else but OBHWF would there be more in one spot? THE CASE FOR HERMIONE AND HARRY I said I'm an H/H shipper, for one overriding reason: never have two people been more suited to each other, perfect soulmates. Hermione has been the person who has prepared him for his challenges; while he is the greatest natural talent of his generation, she is the exemplar of what hard work and application can do - a perfect yin and yang. She understands him better than anyone else. Hermione cares for him as much or more than anyone. When she asks after Harry and Cho, what's going on there? Is she not interested in Harry, or not aware of *how* she might care for him, or is she mature enough to know his feelings for Cho have to be resolved, that the risk must be run? I don't know, but I know that Harry and Hermione love each other already. It may not be romantic love, but they are incredibly close. Hermione with anybody else - even Ron - would be a step backwards in intimacy. Hermione knows exactly what Harry needs. Her DA idea was brilliant, giving him a purpose and a boost he badly needed at the same time providing others with something they needed as well. She sees in Harry his natural leadership qualities and the isolation that was hurting him, and came up with just the right thing that helped him keep going. It's not an accident that JKR tells us more than once how much the DA means to Harry. Let's remember whose idea it was, and how she cared for him at a time when Harry was just plain unlikeable. (I was mad at him about fifty times in OOP). Harry has noticed her, and the subtlety of the clues make them more convincing. In OOP, when she suggests he tell Cho how ugly he thinks Hermione is, he says 'but I don't think you're ugly!' which was a spontaneous letting out of his feelings. In GoF, there were true sparks when he noticed her at the Yule Ball. These seeds are not idly planted. They will burst out someday. Harry's 'saved' Hermione, too. I don't mean physically, although he has, but Hermione knew early that she would be a different person and a lesser one without being in the Trio. She started out with an affinity to Percy, but look at how the two have diverged. Because of her adventures, because she's discovered real purpose, she's a young woman of character and moral courage and Percy's a disgusting sycophant. She might have been a Ravenclaw at heart when she arrived, but there never was a truer Gryffindor now. She's seen what bravery can do. Hermione has gained immensely from knowing Harry. WHAT DOES HARRY NEED? If Harry ends up with Ginny, he's going to have a supportive, loving woman and family, a healing balm for all the hurts he's got and will get. If it's Hermione, she's going to care for him in a different way, pushing him when he needs it, tough when she has to be, challenging him back to health. Which does he need? If anyone wants to argue their viewpoint based on the idea that "JKR says so," that's weak, IMO. JKR doesn't want us to do that. She wants us to find it in her text. She keeps telling us everything is there, and it is. I come down on the H/H side, but I won't cry for him if he ends up with Ginny, no way. She's a great girl, and they all deserve to be happy. Jim F. From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 13:44:54 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:44:54 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74862 Talisman, who thinks if Fudge is qualified to be Minister so is Winky, said: "I'm not clear on how you see Arthur as merely Dumbledore's representative if he is Minister of Magic, but his own man if he holds a subordinate post as Minister of Muggle Protection." Amen on Fudge's qualifications, BTW. If Arthur is MoM, then the nature of his office is to be in charge, nominally Dumbledore's superior as head of the Wizard government; but everybody would know better. It is inescapable, IMO, that Dumbledore is now known to be the leader of the wizard world through the Second Voldemort War. Nothing can change that as long as he lives. If Arthur has a subordinate post [of trust and honor, don't forget] than his public character and his real role match. I believe that for Arthur to become MoM, which can happen *after* the War, then he needs that experience that grows him to the post, at least in the public eye. Talisman:"Also, it seems to me that there are other characters who need to be freed from Dumbledore's great shadow, particularly Harry... What makes you think Dumbledore survives the war?" I don't think Dumbledore will survive the War, and it will be then that Harry is on his own and other leaders will have to step forward. Dumbledore's death will be the darkest hour and the time defeat seems most likely. Jim F. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 13:45:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:45:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's Future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > What do you think is Harry's future? ...edited... > > "Donna" bboy_mn with nothing but pure speculation: After suffering extreme physical and pschological trama from repeated near death experiences at the hands of Voldemort and carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders, Harry will withdraw to a quiet life living off the now substantial return on his investment in Weasley Enterprises. I think Fred and George will offer to pay Harry back what they consider a loan of 1,000 galleon, but Harry will refuse to take it. Instead of just keeping the money, Fred and George will give Harry a share of their business, maybe even a majority share; 50% Harry, 25% Fred, & 25% George. They will do this without informing Harry, since they know he would refuse it. At the end of the story, assuming Harry actually lives, with Voldemort Vanquished, Harry will ponder his future. At his time, Fred and George will inform him that he has a substantial share of their business which has the potential to generate a comfortable income for him. Combining his own inherited money with the Black estate which he inherits and a comfortable income from Weasley's business, Harry will live out his remaining quiet life managing his money and investments and as a generous patron of benevolent causes. Given the stress and trama he was forced to endure while vanquishing the Dark Lord, he may even get a reward and a small pension from the Ministry of Magic. So, really, he will be so financially well off, that he can do anything he wants. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 14:09:20 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 14:09:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's Future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74864 Steve:"After suffering extreme physical and psychological trauma from repeated near death experiences at the hands of Voldemort and carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders, Harry will withdraw to a quiet life living off the now substantial return on his investment in Weasley Enterprises." I absolutely agree about the trauma and the fact Fred and George will do everything in their power for Harry forever - you couldn't have two more loyal or appreciative friends - Harry will be more active than that after a while. It all depends on how Harry recovers. He's paying a high price for being Harry, and I hope that he doesn't have to sacrifice all his happiness and health to save the world. People are going to come to him for help. Everyone knows what he can do, and he'll be the only hope for a lot of people. I can see him becoming the DADA teacher, with Hermione as Headmistress, and some really interesting summer "vacations." (Yes, I've seen the Indiana Jones movies). As for the teacher part, he certainly seems good at it and likes it. So I hope he doesn't do nothing, for his sake. Jim From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 14:11:36 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 14:11:36 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > At first I entertained the notion that maybe no one knew that someone > was after the PS until after the attempted robbery at Gringott's, > that maybe Dumbledore's moving the stone was coincidence, something > he and Flamel had been planning. Then I rolled my eyes at myself (a > difficult thing to do without a mirror in front of me) because that's > just ludicrous. There's no way that Dumbledore set up all those > defenses at Hogwarts for the stone without some reason. Plus, moving > the stone right before someone tries to steal it is WAY too big a > coincidence to swallow, even for gullible me. > I just threw that last bit in there to show you all that my mind is > going every which way with this topic. > > KathyK (getting dizzy thinking in circles) Perhaps the plan was always to protect it at Hogwarts, and it was at Gringotts while DD worked out the protections. Hagrid was sent to remove the stone, but the teachers involved in protecting it had to know roughly when it would be moved - perhaps the attempt by Quirrel happened when it did because he knew it was going to be moved. Unfortunately (for him) he was just a bit too late. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 14:21:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 14:21:58 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: <20030730223128.80167.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > I know Snape treats Harry poorly during Potions in OOP (giving him a 0 > (zero) on his class assignment, etc.), but during Harry's Occlemency > lessons I felt like Snape had acquired some respect for Harry. ...edited. > > Buttercup bboy_mn: I am responding more to all the posts and reponses that have followed this one. I think we are trying to harvest a field, when in reality, we have only planted a seed. Snape has set himself up as Harry's adversary since the minute they first met. You can argue the semantics, intent, and motivation all you want, but functionally he has acted against Harry in their daily interaction from book one. Considering how spiteful, mean, and vindictive Snape is, it's no wonder Harry views him as the enemy and distrusts him. Again, you can argue the underlying intent all you want to, and it doesn't alter the functional result. In the Occlumency lessons, Snape and Harry have gain an insight into each other, and insight that could never possibly have occurred under any other circumstances, and an insight that shows them that they have common ground, common experiences, common feelings, and very subtly, a mutual sympathy. With this common knowledge comes an element of common understanding and sympathy that PLANTS THE SEED for what will eventually become a slightly less hostile and slightly more respectful daily interaction. But, I think deeper inside, there will grow a true respect and understanding that is greater than that which is shown on the outside. In addtion, I think this deeper respect will eventually be reflected in the heroic action of one of them (may be a past, present, or future action); Snape saves Harry, Harry saves Snape, Snape saves Lily, whatever. This as yet unknow action will truly solidify Harry and Snape's respect for each other. Even given that; Snape and Harry will never be friendly. It is possible to respect someone you don't like, and I think that reflects the nature of Harry and Snape's yet to be resolved on going relationship; they will never like each other, but they will respect and trust each other. So, do they now respected each other more? NO. Do they understand each other more? Yes. Is this new understanding and insight the 'seed' that will grow into a greater respect? Yes. Will they ever be buddy-buddy, quaffing ale and swaping jokes? No. In a nut shell. boy_mn From jendiangelo at cox.net Sat Aug 2 14:32:07 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 14:32:07 -0000 Subject: Peck of Owls Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74867 I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, but I'm having a hard time keeping up with all of the posts. For some odd reason, my two young children feel that I should be feeding them and paying attention to them! ;-) I can't honestly tell you what read I'm on of OoP, as I now tend to skip around to re-read certain sections. But something keeps bothering me every time I read it, and I don't know if I'm making too much of a small thing or not. So... I'd like to have other opinions on whether or not anyone else noticed this. In Chapter 2, pg.35 (U.S.), I believe it's Vernon who says, "--a peck, I mean, pack of owls shooting in and out of my house and I won't have it, boy, I won't--". OK, why would he switch from saying the right phrase for a group of owls to the wrong phrase? I don't think that Vernon would have any ties to the WW, but does he know more than he's letting on? Or does he simply not want to seem to know about anything that has anything to do with Harry's world, including what a grouping of owls is called? I think it could be either, I just thought it was odd. Thoughts? Jen From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 14:44:42 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 14:44:42 -0000 Subject: Unaccounted DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74868 --- greatelderone wrote: > Who were the remaining DEs of the 10 that escaped from Azkaban? > > 1.Bellatrix > 2.Rabastan > 3.Rodolpus > 4.Rookwood > 5.Dolohov > 6.Mulciber > 7.???-perhaps Jugson since he was a new DE that we never heard of > 8.???-Travers maybe since he was the only other DE that we know of > locked in Azkaban > 9.??? > 10.??? Tcy - trying to help - but probably not succeeding: I'm not sure who else escaped in OotP - but the list of known DE's is: 1. Avery - we 1st heard about him in GoF - he was in Slytherin with Snape and escaped prosecution blaming the Imperius Curse and then returned to LV - current DE? 2. Regulus Black - dead 3. Mr. Crabbe - current DE as of GoF 4. Barty Crouch, Jr. - dead/soul sucked 5. Antonin Dolohov - captured - presumably released in OotP 6. Mr. Goyle - current DE as of GoF 7. Jugson - current DE - no mention of his past 8. Igor Karkaroff - former DE - still HM of Durmstrang? 9. Bellatrix Lestrange - current DE 10. Rabastan Lestrange - current DE 11. Rodolphus Lestrange - current DE 12. Walden McNair - Buckbeak executioner - still a DE? 13. Lucius Malfoy - current DE 14. Mulciber - 1st mentioned in GoF - no mention of prison time - current DE? 15. Mr. Nott - returned to LV in GoF - current DE? 16. Augustus Rookwood - MoM member-spied for LV - current DE 17. Evan Rosier - in Slytherin w/ Snape - killed year before LV fell 18. Severus Snape - former DE and current spy for Dumbledore and Order? 19. Travers - former DE (helped murder the McKinnons) - no mention of prison time - current DE? 20. Wilkes - in Slytherin w/ Snape - killed by Aurors Sorry I couldn't find who else may have been recently released from prison...but that's the entire list of mentioned DE's so far... Tcy From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 15:07:57 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 15:07:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: >>>GEO: Probably because Harry's attention was still on the kiss and the story is told from his limited pov so he wouldn't have noticed Hermione being furious when Fleur was kissing him since he would be distracted. It was only after the kiss that he noticed that Hermione was furious while at the same time Fleur was kissing Ron.<<< Me: We're never going to agree on this. I stand by my reading of the situation. If Hermione was looking furious because of the Harry kiss, he could have noticed it when Fleur first turned her attention toward Ron. Instead, we hear how furious Hermione looks after Fleur kisses Ron. I think that's intentional and I think it's there to indicate that Hermione is interested in Ron. >>>GEO: Tension does not equal future relationship. Imo the R/H shippers are playing right into her hands by believing that the Katie Couric interview was a confirmation on her part. If anything that was a dodge by Rowling.<<< Me: How is it a dodge when *she's* the one who brought Ron into it? Again, we're not going to agree here. And suggesting I'm "playing into her hands" isn't going to "scare" me into abandoning the ship. I suppose her negative response to the H/H question was her way of faking you out? Good thing you saw right through it. >>>GEO:But why be impatient? It was not exactly her business and as you stated she was more "intellectually ruled". So I find it confusing that Hermione would be impatient to find out if he was going out with Cho.<<< Me: We saw how utterly clueless Harry is in this scene. Hermione seems to be trying to dispense her advice without flat out telling Harry just how horrible he is about this Girl/Boy stuff. There are references to her looking at Harry and Ron with a "pitying expression," trying not to roll her eyes, and there's the fact that she checks that Harry was nice to Cho. To her (as well as to many of us, I'd guess), Cho's state of mind (and therefore how Harry should have acted toward her) is fairly obvious. But Harry doesn't get it. Even after their conversation, he *still* doesn't seem to get it. If I had just explained a bunch of stuff to a guy friend about the girl he likes and then asked if he was going to see her again (meaning "date") and his answer indicated that he thought I was being literal, I think I'd be a little impatient, too. Also, what can we make of her responses to Ron in this scene? While she tries to be diplomatic with Harry, she's rather snotty/nasty to Ron about his unawareness. He makes a bit of a joke about how kissing should "cheer [Cho] up," and she calls him an insensitive wart. He expresses disbelief about Cho's complicated feelings and she insults him for his lack of emotional range. Pretty strong, biting responses for a guy she doesn't have any feelings for. >>>GEO:Then why is it that she is impatient in one moment while in the next she becomes distant. If anything the change occurs when she knows that Harry is going to go out with Cho. Now then if she didn't have an emotional connection why would she become distant and businesslike when she learns that Harry has plans with Cho unless she wants to conceal her emotions.<<< Me: (Pg. 460, American): "Oh well," said Hermione distantly, *buried in her letter once more,* "you'll have plenty of opportunities to ask her..." She's gone back to writing to Viktor, her head's not completely in the Harry/Cho situation anymore (hence, "distantly"). And she's described as being businesslike at the very start of the conversation, and I've already stated my opinion on why that is. >>In regards to Ron and Hermione, their friendship is nothing compared to the one shared by Harry and Hermione. Those two finish each others sentences, know what the other is thinking and when they argue they actually argue at relevant and valid issues and are quick to reconcile in contrast to the Ron and Hermione friendship which is marked by petty bickering and a lack of communication and knowledge of the other.<<< Me: What do we really know about Ron and Hermione's friendship, though? We see most things through Harry's POV; he wasn't at Grimmauld Place all summer, he isn't at the Prefect meetings, he's not in the Common Room during detention with Umbridge or Occlumency with Snape. We have very little information on how Ron and Hermione interact when Harry isn't there. All we do know is that they do have a tendency to hang out together even when he's not around (so he's not necessarily their "glue"). Honestly, I don't think we know enough to make any assumptions. >>>GEO: The H/G ship is pretty much sunk since Ginny has grown out of her crush. If it even begins then it begins incredibly flawed since the two are forced together by Ron who wants them to date at the end of Ootp. If anything else Ginny still sees Harry as the champion who banished Voldemort as a baby and when she got a glimpse of the very real and angry Harry she didn't like it all.<<< Me: I disagree that it's sunk. Another poster has already indicated why OotP could actually be seen as "saving" the H/G ship, given that Ginny no longer sees Harry as "The Boy Who Lived" but as a person. And the fact that he was angry and she didn't seem to like it hardly means that they're a 'no go.' There's a lot more to Harry than his temper, and she knows that. Also, Ron making a comment to Ginny while shooting a look at Harry hardly indicates that he's going to "force them together." I don't think Ron has any measure of control over the two of them, much less enough to make them date. This whole discussion, I feel, has gone on much longer than it should have. We both know damn well that we're not going to change each other's minds on this. The plain fact is that we disagree, and we've proven ourselves very capable of both supporting our opinions and countering each other's arguments. Clearly, we're going to have to wait it out to see what happens. In the meantime, I'm going to attempt to give the great shipper debate a rest. After all, there's a lot more to the books than who ends up with who. CM From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 2 15:28:43 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 15:28:43 -0000 Subject: Silly Questions (that may never be answered) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74870 bboy_mn wrote: THE DEATH EATER CAPTURE REWARDS- This issue is really getting to me, I swear I become more pschotically obssessed with it everyday. I will simply be furious if the Ministry does not make good on it's offer of G1,000 per death eater (G=symbol for Galleons, should actually look like the General Mills 'G' logo), and they should still get the G1,000 for the capture of the DE's like Malfoy who were not escaped prisoners. A captured DE is a captured DE; escaped or not. If the money is offerred to Harry, I suspect he will insist that everyone who was involved (other students and Order members) get an equal share of the reward. Although I think certain members like Moody will decline. The implication is that there were about 10 DE's present, most but not all of them were caught, and some of them were not Azkaban escaped DE's. I don't think Moody or Kingsley will accept their share of the reward. So, let's round it off to 8 bad guys captured by 8 good guys; that G1,000 each. Worst case, estimate 6 escaped DE's and 10 good guys, that's G600 each. 1,000 galleons is about US$7,500. 600 galleons is about US$4,500. Either way, that will be like a small fortune to Ron and Lupin, and it certainly won't be small potatoes to the other members. Me (Bill): There were twelve 'good guys' involved in the MoM fight: six students, the five Order members in the rescue mission, and Dumbledore. Of those, the two active Aurers (Tonks and Shacklebolt) are probably prohibited from accepting the reward money due to conflict-of-interest rules, Black is dead, and I think that Dumbledore would refuse to accept any money. That leaves eight people (the six students, Lupin and Moody) dividing up G11,000 (the twelve DEs minus Bellatrix) - that's G1,375 each. At the 'official' exchange rate of five Pounds per Galleon, that's 6,875 Pounds each, but the purchasing power in the books seems a lot higher. The reward money would be worth well over US$10,000 each - a fortune for Lupin, Ron and Ginny. Bill From karenoc1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 15:37:22 2003 From: karenoc1 at yahoo.com (karenoc1) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 15:37:22 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Jim F. wrote: I believe that for Arthur to become MoM, which can happen *after* the War, then he needs that experience that grows him to the post, at least in the public eye. ... Jim F. This is a good point, but I'm not certain it is supported by the text. What are the real qualifications for Minister of Magic? Barty Crouch Sr. was up for Minister, but Fudge got it. They were both heads of departments, but Crouch Sr. fell out of favor so Fudge got the top job. So far, this supports your point. But: Arthur Weasley is the head of a Ministry department, and that seems to be all the experience that is necessary. We've also seen that he is pretty universally respected by non-Death Eaters and non- Fudgians. One example would be Mrs. Longbottom (a fairly well- connected witch, I'd say); oh, and there's Dumbledore as well the entire Order of the Phoenix, which includes a few well-connected Ministry members. Molly points out in GoF that it is only Arthur's love for Muggles that keeps in back within the Fudge regime of the Ministry, and this regime has just been severely discredited. From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 2 15:38:57 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 16:38:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) References: Message-ID: <003e01c3590c$315c0660$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74872 From: subrosax99 << Oh, how different things could have been for poor Severus if Frauelein Maria had turned up at his dark doorstep with a guitar! I bet she would have fixed him up with some "play robes" made out of old drapes, and taken him out for a gambol in the countryside. Allyson ------ Snape comes sweeping into the dungeons, and before a stunned class breaks out with "Raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens, brown paper packages tied up with string..." before turning back to the blackboard "....will be some of the ingredients you will need for the emetic potion we will be brewing today." sorry Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 15:53:03 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 15:53:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's Future In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > What do you think is Harry's future? We know he talked to McGonagall > about being an Auror. But somehow I don't think his heart was in > it. Seems to me that he really liked planning the lessons for the > DA. And he's always considered Hogwarts to be his home. It would be > poetic justice if he became the DADA teacher. > We already had this discussion. Rowling has said in an interview that he won't be staying at Hogwarts as a teacher. The most likely choice imo is an auror, but considering how he mirrors Tom Riddle perhaps he'll become a wanderer doing good just for the sake of it and learning enough magic to become the next Dumbledore. From darkthirty at shaw.ca Sat Aug 2 15:55:10 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 15:55:10 -0000 Subject: Case for HP blabbing and running away Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74874 This won't be a thorough as I meant it to be, since I have to do some work today. First, the sterling example of Fred and George, with the added strength of their business contact with him. They've "got style" and they could be a rather useful extra-school contact. HP wants "OUT." (The door at Dumbledore representing the school itself - Dumbledore won't let him leave.) HP *felt* like a pawn at the beginning of OOP. At the end of the book, he *knows* he has been, and is, a chesspiece. HP thought he was a weapon at one point, and wanted to run away, to protect his friends, and was relieved to think otherwise just a page or two later. At the end of the book, he knows he is a weapon, as it were. Both for Voldemort and for Dumbledore, as it were. (Death of Sirius, retrieval of prophecy for DE, Dumbledore's abstemiousness with truth, ostensibly for HP's own good.) The sit down by the lake until dark signals acceptance of his finally understood role. The presence of OOP members at the end, talking to the Dursleys, only hardens this sense of his being a chesspiece. Will he want to live in a place that is livable only because OOP enforces it? Keeping the prophecy secret was not particularly constructive, aside from forcing LV to reveal himself. Thematically now - As choosing not to talk about Umbridge's torture signalled his taking the stigma as his own, steeling his resistance and sharpening his defiance, so taking his role (fate, as it were) to himself would signal an owned, chosen Potterhood. He will speak the prophecy, or think it, to LV. This in conjunction with running away. Questions - How will he run away? Is he under house arrest? Any OOP members could be tricked, some more easily than others, possibly. Where could he run to? A cave? Fred and George? Sweden? If you've any ideas where he could run to, please post them. dan From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 16:05:35 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:05:35 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74875 KathyK: > >Plus, moving the stone right before someone tries to steal it is WAY too big a coincidence to swallow, even for gullible me. > > I just threw that last bit in there to show you all that my mind is > > going every which way with this topic. > > > > KathyK (getting dizzy thinking in circles) meltowne: > Perhaps the plan was always to protect it at Hogwarts, and it was at > Gringotts while DD worked out the protections. Hagrid was sent to > remove the stone, but the teachers involved in protecting it had to > know roughly when it would be moved - perhaps the attempt by Quirrel > happened when it did because he knew it was going to be moved. > Unfortunately (for him) he was just a bit too late. KathyK: See? I go to dismiss a notion out of hand and you have to go and make it make sense again. It did not occur to me that moving the Stone to Hogwarts would set Quirrel's plan in motion, but that makes a great deal of sense, too. Especially since Quirrel *was* in on protecting the stone, kindly providing that troll. He'd know the stone was coming, but not exactly when. When he sees Hagrid and Harry at the Leaky Cauldron he suspects that Dumbledore has finally decided to move the stone to Hogwarts and knows he must immediately try to steal it. Just a hair too late, he can at least breathe a small sigh of relief knowing that he can get through at least one of the protections on the stone at Hogwarts. He then begins working on how to get through the rest of them. But I still wonder then why Flamel and Dumbledore decided the stone would be safer at Hogwarts, or even at Gringott's than with Flamel. This is way too much fun, KathyK (still dizzy and enjoying it) From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 16:07:24 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:07:24 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: If Arthur is MoM, then the nature of his office is to be in charge, nominally Dumbledore's superior as head of the Wizard government; but everybody would know better. "snip" I believe that for Arthur to become MoM, which can happen *after* the War, then he needs that experience that grows him to the post, at least in the public eye. "snip" I don't think Dumbledore will survive the War. Jim F. Talisman, folding little violet "Weasley for Minister" pamphlets to go with her memo plane, replies: Well your qualifications really do clear the way back to Risi's original observations, don't they? We agree DD won't survive, so there is really no danger of him "overshadowing" Arthur, who is not likely to become Minister of Magic until Book 7, or at least well into Book 6. Since Fudge isn't dead yet and we don't have to have the inagural parade today, JK's got plenty of time to "develop" Arthur. If you need to review how fast JK can develop a back burner character just re-read Ginny in OoP. And, Arthur has a very good base to work from: he has years of experience in a legislative position; he has the right kind of heart to bring truth to the old hypocritical M.O.M. statuary; and he's a frontline warrior in the battle against Voldemort. There is nothing like a heroic veteran as a post war candidate. Talisman, who notes that Arthur has a nice box of batteries, too. From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 16:16:29 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:16:29 -0000 Subject: Unaccounted DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tcyhunt" wrote: > --- greatelderone wrote: > > Who were the remaining DEs of the 10 that escaped from Azkaban? > > > > 1.Bellatrix > > 2.Rabastan > > 3.Rodolpus > > 4.Rookwood > > 5.Dolohov > > 6.Mulciber > > 7.???-perhaps Jugson since he was a new DE that we never heard of > > 8.???-Travers maybe since he was the only other DE that we know of > > locked in Azkaban > > 9.??? > > 10.??? > > > Tcy - trying to help - but probably not succeeding: > > I'm not sure who else escaped in OotP - but the list of known DE's is: > > 1. Avery - we 1st heard about him in GoF - he was in Slytherin with > Snape and escaped prosecution blaming the Imperius Curse and then > returned to LV - current DE? > > 2. Regulus Black - dead > > 3. Mr. Crabbe - current DE as of GoF > > 4. Barty Crouch, Jr. - dead/soul sucked > > 5. Antonin Dolohov - captured - presumably released in OotP > > 6. Mr. Goyle - current DE as of GoF > > 7. Jugson - current DE - no mention of his past > > 8. Igor Karkaroff - former DE - still HM of Durmstrang? > > 9. Bellatrix Lestrange - current DE > > 10. Rabastan Lestrange - current DE > > 11. Rodolphus Lestrange - current DE > > 12. Walden McNair - Buckbeak executioner - still a DE? > > 13. Lucius Malfoy - current DE > > 14. Mulciber - 1st mentioned in GoF - no mention of prison time - > current DE? > > 15. Mr. Nott - returned to LV in GoF - current DE? > > 16. Augustus Rookwood - MoM member-spied for LV - current DE > > 17. Evan Rosier - in Slytherin w/ Snape - killed year before LV fell > > 18. Severus Snape - former DE and current spy for Dumbledore and > Order? > > 19. Travers - former DE (helped murder the McKinnons) - no mention of > prison time - current DE? > > 20. Wilkes - in Slytherin w/ Snape - killed by Aurors > > Sorry I couldn't find who else may have been recently released from > prison...but that's the entire list of mentioned DE's so far... > > Tcy GREAT THREAD!!! Now Harry estimated "at least about 30" death eaters would fill the circle in the cemetary in GOF. We have Confirmed in the cicle Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, McNair, Malfoy, Wormtail. He then mentions 3 dead, one is a coward and one is gone forever. However, my question is this... we know that 10 wizards escaped azkaban and that at least some of them were death eaters... That said, WHY DOES VOLDEMORT SEEM TO IMPLY THAT THERE ARE ONLY TWO OF HIS FOLLOWERS IN AZKABAN if there are far more??? IF there are 30 altogether (Harry's judgement by the circle around him) and only 3 are dead that leaves at least 27 more to be accounted for. 20 are mentioned. That leaves 10 more unaccounted for... why might they be? but again, why would voldemort mention the lestanges in azkaban but not the rest of the DEs that went there for him? From darkthirty at shaw.ca Sat Aug 2 16:34:56 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:34:56 -0000 Subject: Case for HP blabbing and running away In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74878 Two points. After the sit down at the lake, HP talks to Luna. His best friends aren't involved, it's not a SHIP (necessarily), but he is choosing to respond to her without reference to his friends. Something other than just not being a prefect as they are. That is, this felt very much like something new (only foreshadowed in his dealings with Myrtle in GoF) and individual - HP's alone. Also, I wonder if HP could go to Romania? That could be cool. But who would really want to have HP, after all? Even without knowing the prophecy, HP's connection with LV is apparent (HP's blood runs in his veins, as it were) so he's kind of a hot potato. dan From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 16:44:05 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:44:05 -0000 Subject: Unaccounted DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74879 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" wrote: > GREAT THREAD!!! > > Now Harry estimated "at least about 30" death eaters would fill the > circle in the cemetary in GOF. > > We have Confirmed in the cicle Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, McNair, Malfoy, > Wormtail. He then mentions 3 dead, one is a coward and one is gone > forever. > > However, my question is this... we know that 10 wizards escaped > azkaban and that at least some of them were death eaters... > > That said, WHY DOES VOLDEMORT SEEM TO IMPLY THAT THERE ARE ONLY TWO > OF HIS FOLLOWERS IN AZKABAN if there are far more??? > > IF there are 30 altogether (Harry's judgement by the circle around > him) and only 3 are dead that leaves at least 27 more to be accounted > for. 20 are mentioned. That leaves 10 more unaccounted for... why > might they be? > > but again, why would voldemort mention the lestanges in azkaban but > not the rest of the DEs that went there for him? Maybe because the Lestranges were particularly loyal to him, especially Bellatrix. They could, next to Crouch Jr. be his favorite followers. In the cemetary he could have been using them as an example of what he values in his followers as compared with those who surrounded him, cowards who denied him the moment he disappeared. Or perhaps he just didn't have the time to go through all the missing DE's from the circle as he was too excited about killing Harry. KathyK From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Sat Aug 2 16:44:04 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:44:04 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's seerdom (was: Re: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F2BEA54.7080205@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 74880 Jim Ferer wrote (2003-08-02 14:00): >Risti:""What's the point," [Ron] said dully, "We've got about as much >chance of winning the Quidditch Cup this year as Dad's got of becoming >Minister of Magic... And of course, we all know Ron's a Seer in denial." > >I've floated that idea myself, that the form Ron's Seerdom takes is >that when he thinks he's making up a prophecy he is in fact making a >real one (there seems to be something about prophecy in literature >that you can't make one consciously), but we haven't seen much to >confirm it. It's fun to imagine, though, and a source of countless >fic bunnies. > > I agree. Please note, however, that this means that Ron should receive an Outstanding (or at least Exceeds Expectatioons) on his Divination OWL, when, as we all remember, he was describing his examiner's reflection in his crystal ball. And imagine Ron's face when he learned that he had to continue Divination on 6th year ;-). Regards, -- Pshemekan From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 12:55:23 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 12:55:23 -0000 Subject: The lifecycle of a Fawkes (was : Neville's Wand) In-Reply-To: <7b.167bac3b.2c5c9a77@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74881 > You do it every few months, say every three months, that's over 20% of your > time being spent in less than top condition. On a regular basis. *Plus* > growing after being killed. > > What happens if you kill a baby pheonix? I doubt, even if possiblely, the > burning is either a neutral sensation or plesent they would enjoy...say being > kicked into a wall and dying of bleeding to death, or being eaten. > > So extend it to every few years. Fine, but we have seen that muggles get > *some* things right in their myths and legends. So while 1000 is out of the > question, and most seem to think 100 is too long for Dumbledore to simply shrug > off missing it, how about fifty? I think it is a matter of mental _and_ physical state... a Pheonix is a magical creature-- which means it has the WILL to do its bidding... this would, IMO, extend to matters of rejuvination. Say it had lived happily in a home for 100 years and never seen a conflict-- it would possibly go decades without "molting"... but a war-torn bird might wish to combust sooner. We know the bird reaches maturity at an accelerated rate... but when it is reborn, does it keep its current state of awareness? The pheonix can be a metaphor for reincarnation.... how does it change mentally over time? From julwalker7614726 at aol.com Sat Aug 2 13:11:38 2003 From: julwalker7614726 at aol.com (ejom723) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 13:11:38 -0000 Subject: Fred & George's Abilities Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74882 My children and I were watching CoS the other evening and my youngest son kept asking me why Ron is afraid of spiders, so I told him of when Ron was (I believe) three Fred & George turned his teddy bear into a spider. (I believe this is stated somewhere either in CoS or SS/PS canon.) Think for a moment that if F& G are two years older than Ron, at five they were transfiguring a teddy bear into a spider. That's one serious piece of magic for five year olds considering that thing isn't taught until first year at Hogwarts (turtle to tea pot, etc.). Not to mention the fine peice of magic they performed in the halls before they left with their swamp. Even Professor Flintwick was impressed with it. It got me to thinking that these boys through all their silly jokes and lack of ambition for what Percy would term "real work" that there is much more than meets the eye to these boys and that they are much more powerful wizards than is being let on in the books. Look for them to be more active in the OoTP in book six and seven. Jules, who wishes she knew some of Molly's "householdy" spells. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Aug 2 16:37:33 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:37:33 -0000 Subject: The Riddle House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74883 Does anyone have any theories on who now owns the Riddle House ? We are only told that someone owns it 'for tax reasons, whatever they may be'. Since houses and the protection generated by the families who live in them is quite a big theme in the books, I wonder if this is going to be important ? Will HP have to attack Voldemort there, or in the nearby graveyard, in order to finally dispose of him ? And then will Voldemort's long-dead mother offer Voldy any protection ? Is she buried in that graveyard too, I wonder ? Just who was she ? CW From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 16:43:00 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:43:00 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: ,> We agree DD won't survive, so there is really no danger of > him "overshadowing" Arthur, who is not likely to become Minister of > Magic until Book 7, or at least well into Book 6. Ariadne: I agree there is a good chance Arthur could be the next, or interim MOM. ALl I can say is, what will Percy think about THAT?!? Hah! Little twit... From binky666 at ihateclowns.com Sat Aug 2 15:31:15 2003 From: binky666 at ihateclowns.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 15:31:15 -0000 Subject: emotional rescue Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74885 This is my first post to this list-I hope it's okay. There was a discussion going on a few days ago regarding Sirius's emotional state in OoP and Dumbledore's behavior regarding that situation. One thing that struck me in both books 4 and 5 was that the feelings of characters who have gone through terrible ordeals are pretty much neglected by everyone around them. Harry, after his return from the cemetery in book 4, so desperately needs to cry about what has happened to him. Molly makes a good attempt by hugging him, but Hermione bursts into the room and that's the end of that. Molly doesn't try to pursue it then or later, as far as we know. Dumbledore is right to get Harry to talk about what happened (even if he does have multiple reasons for obtaining the information), but he leaves Harry to deal with the trauma on his own. Even Sirius, who clearly cares deeply about Harry, can provide no more than a hand on Harry's shoulder while Harry tells his story. So book 4 ends without Harry really finding the support he needs. And then he goes back to Privet Drive and his friends promptly stop any meaningful communication (for good reasons, but still). So if depression is anger turned inward, maybe in this case, Harry's anger is at least partly depression turned outward. And then there's Sirius. I think Dumbledore fails him greviously, and Lupin (who's really a dear, I think) could have done better too. The pattern I see here is that people just don't express their feelings, and I wonder if that has something to do with the British character. My impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong about this) is that the stiff upper lip is still valued in Britain, as opposed to here in the States, where it's all venting all the time to anyone who will listen. There's surely a healthy middle ground, and that would include trying to relieve the obvious suffering being experienced by people close to you. It just makes me ache when I read that scene with Molly and Harry at the end of book 4, or just about anything Sirius says in book 5. It's no surprise that Harry and Sirius make some questionable decisions, given the emotional instability they were experiencing. Harry will have a chance to come to terms with everything that's happened to him in the last 2 books, and I hope he finally gets some support in that. But poor Sirius...what a sad life. From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 16:45:22 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy Jewell) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 09:45:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: <1059831905.7427.4759.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030802164522.13780.qmail@web41412.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74886 I don't post a lot, but this one got my attention. Here's my thoughts on this. As a teacher, I can tell you that grading always matters. Teachers wouldn't assign grades if there was no purpose for them and I think that JKR has shown that the grades are used. After all, we know that Hermione is top in the class, right? How else would that be determined outside of grades? Snape may not be fair, but I don't think that what he's doing has anything to do with being mean. He's trying to motivate the kids to work HARDER! Here's what the usual thought is. With the rare exception of kids like Hermione, who'd probably work hard no matter what, most kids are not highly motivated to work hard. Especially when they are getting good grades. By grading Harry(or anyone else) lower he motivates him to work harder to get a better grade. Now granted, there are limits to this. If you try to push kids to hard they stop working altogether, believeing it's impossible to do better. I don't think that's Harry though, and I think Snape knows it. Harry works harder to prove Sanpe wrong, after all. The theory has backfired with Neville (and probaly other students before) but how Snape teaches is pretty common in inner cities where getting the kids to become motivated can be hard. You push them to do better. Teachers aren't there to be the kids friends. They have their friends for that. I think that Snape knows what he's doing. Maybe he doesn't like Harry, but I also don't think he wants to see Harry fail. He's using a specific teaching style. Not always right, but frequently it works. And works well. Just my thoughts, Christy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 16:55:20 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 16:55:20 -0000 Subject: Houses (was:Re: Thestral Boy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74887 > I just see no way the houses could always come up even. The number > of students probably isn't always divisable by four. And even if it > were, I don't think there'd always be the exact same number of > students in each house. > I think there is a way they can keep them "in the ballpark" of evened out. You do have to be accepted into Hogwarts...obviously there is the witch or wizard sitting at home that for some reason never makes it to Hogwarts, or is chosen for another school. By restricting the number of students they accept every year, and by basing this acceptance on thier magic ability, family, and personalities, they could get a fairly rough estimate of who will be going where, and make the number of children accepted divisable by four. This way there wouldn't be one house with barely a Q. team, and another house with 1,000 kids in it. The outcome may seem random, but I am sure they can alter the variables to produce a needed result-- just to keep things on an even playing field. We really don't know if there is some giant teacher's conference between schools when they sort or who will be going where.. or if some student chooses not to attend that there isn't some "B" list sitting around. From tifaheart2001 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 2 17:02:53 2003 From: tifaheart2001 at yahoo.co.uk (tifaheart2001) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:02:53 -0000 Subject: Major Argument on the horizon for the trio. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74888 Now, I don't know if anyones thought of this or anything, but haven't you noticed something about the arguments in the HP books? each one has shown some sort of breakup between Harry Ron and Hermione. Book one, Hermione wasn't their friend until gone half way through the book. Book two, Ron has his first indipendent argument with Hermione. book three, Harry and Ron get in the big Firebolt, Crookshanks, Scabber row. Book four, first time agrument for Harry and Ron, granted, it wasn't very long in the book but in the time of Hogwarts, for Harry, it would be a few weeks. And Book five, Harry, feeling neglected and generally just angry, is angry at both Hermione and Ron. The possibilites for a Ron estrangment of both Harry and Hermione are simple, Harry and Hermione start to date, Ron, who we all know is nuts for hermione (cho-Harry complex in my opinion) and stumbles on them kissing at Hogsmeade or something. A Hermione extrangement is a little bigger. Theres several possibilities, one would be a part of my idea that Hermione recieves horrid OWLs though she gets the best in the year, as a part of a plan for the teacher to build hermiones moral. And Ron is forever teasing her, she takes it as from both him and Harry and won't speak to them. Theres a hell of a lot more, but I don't think I'll make this any longer. Alan From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 17:24:48 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:24:48 -0000 Subject: Houses (was:Re: Thestral Boy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74889 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepingblyx" wrote: > I think there is a way they can keep them "in the ballpark" of > evened out. You do have to be accepted into Hogwarts...obviously > there is the witch or wizard sitting at home that for some reason > never makes it to Hogwarts, or is chosen for another school. > Oh, I believe that they are usually fairly close, but not exactly. I figure it's pretty common for one house to have 10 new students while another has 9 or 11. > By restricting the number of students they accept every year, and by basing this acceptance on thier magic ability, family, and > personalities, they could get a fairly rough estimate of who will be going where, and make the number of children accepted divisable by four. This way there wouldn't be one house with barely a Q. team, and another house with 1,000 kids in it. > I just don't think they do that. I think they accept all qualified children. By qualified I mean magical and fully human. Half-giants and werewolves probably wouldn't get in under some Headmasters. (I think the Longbottom family was worrying needlessly.) Helga flat- out said she'd teach them all. Besides, family isn't a fool-proof way to determine houses. The hat strongly considered putting Harry in Slytherin even though Lily (and presumably James) was in Gryffindore. Also, what about muggle- borns? They have no way of knowing wheere those kids will go. If they tried to guess off personality, they'd probably think Hermione would go to Ravenclaw. I see absolutely no reason to assume all the houses are *exactly* the same size. bibphile From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 2 17:28:37 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:28:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: <20030802164522.13780.qmail@web41412.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Christy Jewell wrote: > > Snape may not be fair, but I don't think that what > he's doing has anything to do with being mean. > > He's trying to motivate the kids to work HARDER! > Here's what the usual thought is. With the rare > exception of kids like Hermione, who'd probably work > hard no matter what, most kids are not highly > motivated to work hard. Especially when they are > getting good grades. Why would any kid be motivated to work harder by the knowledge that he's going to fail no matter what he does? To motivate somebody to work harder, you must give them at least a tiny glimmer of hope that their hard work will be rewarded. In five years, Snape has yet to give Harry such a glimmer. Harry fails to hand in a potion. Snape gives him a zero. Harry hands in a potion. Snape destroys it and gives him a zero again. Why the heck would Harry try to do better after this? He might as well take a nice long nap in every Potions class from now on -- the result will be the same zero, but at least he'll be better rested. > > By grading Harry(or anyone else) lower he motivates > him to work harder to get a better grade. That only works if you actually do give them a better grade if they work harder. Snape doesn't do this. If he doesn't like somebody -- like Neville or Harry -- it doesn't matter how hard they work, they'll never do any better. And the kids know this. > I don't think that's Harry though, and I think Snape > knows it. Harry works harder to prove Sanpe wrong, > after all. The theory has backfired with Neville (and > probaly other students before) Have we ever seen a single student with whom Snape's methods succeeded? A single student who started out being bad in potions, worked harder in response to Snape's bullying, showed improvement and got a better grade? Or is this going to be another one of those "they're all over the place, Harry just failed to notice them over the course of five years" arguments? > but how Snape teaches > is pretty common in inner cities where getting the > kids to become motivated can be hard. If that's true, it certainly explains a lot about the state of modern inner-city schools. If I was an inner city kid and a teacher treated me the way Snape treats Harry, dropping out to join a gang would seem more attractive every day. > You push them to > do better. Teachers aren't there to be the kids > friends. They have their friends for that. Teachers are not there to be the kids' enemies, either. Or at least, they shouldn't be. I don't believe Snape's teaching style works. Any kid who does well in his class (such as Hermione) does it in spite of him, not because. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Sat Aug 2 17:38:50 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:38:50 -0000 Subject: the Fat Lady - Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dominik_reisner" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dublinaaireland" > > wrote: > > > > ... '...it ain't *over* till the fat lady sings!', and it made me > > ask the question, does the fat lady in the picture frame sing?? << > > > bboy_mn: > > > > Well, undoubtedly the Fat Lady could sing, but I don't recall it > > happening. > > > > As long as we are on the subject, does anyone find it odd that the Fat > > Lady has never been identified? > > That is indeed weird and I am your opinion that the fat lady has > some hidden relevance that Harry doesn't know of yet. > > > > Every other portrait and statue in the school seems to be known by > > and refered to by name, but in five books with the Fat Lady having a > > speaking role in every one of them, she has yet to be identified, even > > thought much more obscure, even extremely obscure statues and > > prortraits have been indentified. > "dominik" ME : The Grey Lady hasn't been identified more than thus, either - the Ravenclaw ghost? I presume there may also be something going on there - perhaps Luna will introduce her? It seems odd, as the other house ghosts have specific and front-of-house roles to play. The other thing about ghosts is, when Harry and Ron are waiting to go in to be sorted in PS, 'About twenty ghosts had just streamed through the back wall'. Where are they all? We only see the three house ghosts and Peeves.. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 17:46:39 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:46:39 -0000 Subject: Ghosts (was: Re: the Fat Lady - Name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: The Grey Lady hasn't been identified more than thus, either - the Ravenclaw ghost? . . . It seems odd, as the other house ghosts have specific and front-of-house roles to play. The other thing about ghosts is, when Harry and Ron are waiting to go in to be sorted in PS, 'About twenty ghosts had just streamed through the back wall'. Where are they all? We only see the three house ghosts and Peeves.. > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria > Actually, we've seen all four house ghosts. Gryffindor - Nearly Headless Nick Ravenclaw - The Grey Lady Huffulepuff - The Fat Friar Slytherin - The Bloody Baron Nick is the only one who we know the actual name of. bibphile From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Aug 2 17:52:38 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:52:38 -0000 Subject: Fred & George's Abilities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ejom723" wrote: > My children and I were watching CoS the other evening and my youngest > son kept asking me why Ron is afraid of spiders, so I told him of > when Ron was (I believe) three Fred & George turned his teddy bear > into a spider. (I believe this is stated somewhere either in CoS or > SS/PS canon.) Think for a moment that if F& G are two years older > than Ron, at five they were transfiguring a teddy bear into a > spider. That's one serious piece of magic for five year olds > considering that thing isn't taught until first year at Hogwarts > (turtle to tea pot, etc.). Not to mention the fine peice of magic > they performed in the halls before they left with their swamp. Even > Professor Flintwick was impressed with it. It got me to thinking > that these boys through all their silly jokes and lack of ambition > for what Percy would term "real work" that there is much more than > meets the eye to these boys and that they are much more powerful > wizards than is being let on in the books. Look for them to be more > active in the OoTP in book six and seven. > > Jules, who wishes she knew some of Molly's "householdy" spells. It may be that they pickedup some precocious magic skills from their older brothers, Bill and Charlie. I've often noticed that children who have a number of older siblings can come up with some startlingly advanced knowledge. On a more prosaic note, very often the younger children in a larger family become Santa Claus "Non-believers" fairly early on because older siblings frequently can't resist sharing the truth of this. June PS The dishwashing spell especially, actually dammit, any of them would be fine with me too. From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 2 17:55:23 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:55:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... References: Message-ID: <005901c3591f$407d0820$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74894 From: marinafrants <<> Harry fails to hand in a potion. Snape gives him a zero. Harry hands in a potion. Snape destroys it and gives him a zero again. ---------------- We can't assume Snape has destroyed it - Harry puts the flask on the desk, turns away and immediately hears the smash. He turns back to a smug looking Snape, and he assumes Snape did it. If it was careless placement of the flask that causes it to fall and smash, it is Harry's fault that there is no potion to grade. ---------------- <>Harry works harder to prove Sanpe wrong, > after all. The theory has backfired with Neville (and > probaly other students before) Have we ever seen a single student with whom Snape's methods succeeded? A single student who started out being bad in potions, worked harder in response to Snape's bullying, showed improvement and got a better grade <> I don't believe Snape's teaching style works. Any kid who does well in his class (such as Hermione) does it in spite of him, not because. Marina ---------------- Yes, actually, we do. Neville Longbottom, who had never betrayed any real magical or academic talent except in Herbology, and is a constant 'poor performer'(not just in potions), actually passes his potions exam. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Aug 2 17:57:25 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:57:25 -0000 Subject: Unaccounted DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" > wrote: > > GREAT THREAD!!! > > > > Now Harry estimated "at least about 30" death eaters would fill the > > circle in the cemetary in GOF. > > > > We have Confirmed in the cicle Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, McNair, Malfoy, > > Wormtail. He then mentions 3 dead, one is a coward and one is gone > > forever. > > > > However, my question is this... we know that 10 wizards escaped > > azkaban and that at least some of them were death eaters... > > > > That said, WHY DOES VOLDEMORT SEEM TO IMPLY THAT THERE ARE ONLY TWO > > OF HIS FOLLOWERS IN AZKABAN if there are far more??? > > > > IF there are 30 altogether (Harry's judgement by the circle around > > him) and only 3 are dead that leaves at least 27 more to be > accounted > > for. 20 are mentioned. That leaves 10 more unaccounted for... why > > might they be? > > > > but again, why would voldemort mention the lestanges in azkaban but > > not the rest of the DEs that went there for him? > > Perhaps because even among DE's there is a heirarchy and some death eaters are more equal than others. Perhaps the ones he mentions are "officers"and the others merely "troops". June From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 2 18:07:56 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:07:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Potter house was destroyed 15 years ago References: <1059710684.5887.1002.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001201c35921$00ac71c0$057d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 74896 Atropos Gryffin: >At this point Pettigrew transformed and ran off. The house was still >in order (because AK is precise and does no collateral damage). >Lupin comes to and finds baby Harry. Not knowing what has become of >V. and Peter he immediately owls Dumbledore (or other order member) >and then waits for assistance. But, oh no! The full moon shines >through the windows, and he starts to transform. Since he is James >he does not know how to handle it, he cannot control himself. He >drops Harry and becomes wild/violent. He literally destroys the >houseduring his transformation, then runs off knowing he may harm >Harry. I wonder whether Lupin's transformation would cause him to do that amount of damage. It certainly wouldn't have that effect on a Muggle dwelling. Memories of Hammer Horror here, but werewolves don't seem to have superhuman power either while transforming or in wolf state and just wouldn't have the strength to tear down walls! But of course the descriptions certainly of Hogwarts and the Burrow make it clear that _wizard_ houses aren't just built of bricks and mortar, magic goes into their construction. If something gets in the way of that and disrupts it, then maybe the house would become unstable and start to fall. Could that have been the effect either of James (whether transformed or otherwise) fighting to keep Voldemort out, or of the counterspell that dissipated Voldemort when he tried to AK Harry? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 18:08:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:08:36 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74897 True, Harry has expressed an interest in being a Auror. But... the average kid that age thinks of being a fireman, policeman, astronaut, rock star, movie star, etc... because they are all glamorous and exciting, and of course, the particular desired professions changes several times a day. So, it is reasonable that Auror seems dangerous and exciting now, but how is Harry going to feel after a few more encounters with Death Eaters and Voldemort, and after the ULTIMATE encounter with Voldemort? These encounters at the end of each book are brutal. Harry is a complete mess after each of them and usually spends a significant amount of time in the hospital. Now on top of the brutality and trama he has and will endure from these encounters, Dumbledore has told Harry it must end with him being murdered or commiting murder (murder=Harry's own words). Plus, Dumbledore and circumstances have in essence told Harry that the weigh of the world, more specifically the fate and lives of the wizard world, are resting on his shoulders. So... no pressure there Harry. How much can one little boy be asked to bare? Especially, when he is so poorly supported; emotionally, physically, intellectually, and magically. I also predict that the tramatic and brutal encounters we've seen so far are going to pale in comparison to what Harry has to face in the next two books. After living throught hell, do you really think Harry wants to make living in hell his profession? Not me. Harry is going to come out of this deeply scared and tramatized, and most critically, brutally famous. If he becomes an Auror, every wizard with a problem is going to demand that the famous Harry Potter come and solve it. Once word spreads, I can see calls coming in to the Ministry from all over the world, begging for them to send Harry Potter to save them from one form of evil or another. Those unrelenting demands will mean that Harry is doomed to spending his life under the constant threat of danger and death. Everywhere he goes, everything he does, will mean countless people are going to be depending on him to save them. As an Auror, Harry will be like Atlas, doomed to forever carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, but unlike Atlas, Harry is not a supernatural being. No mere mortal can carry that much weight for that long without it eventually crushing him; without it eventually destroying him. No, I think once all is said and done, Harry will have more than his fill of dark wizard fighting, and will be more content to live a quiet, benevolent, unassuming life. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Sat Aug 2 18:10:08 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (Nineve Laguna) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:10:08 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: What's On Topic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74898 Is this a group message or a personal one? If group, fair enough. If personal, I don't know what you mean. Nineve. >From: "pippin_999" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: What's On Topic >Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2003 13:12:38 -0000 > >Greetings from Hexquarters! > > >There's been some recent discussion of what's on topic and >what's not. Our posting guidelines state that this list is for >discussion of the HP books and the -Movie list is for discussion >of the Warner Brothers films. But when JKR herself connects the >movies and the books in a single interview, what's a poor >listmember to do? > > >We'd like to ask you to use your common sense here. We don't >want to deprive anyone of the fun of trying to guess what episode >in CoS JKR could have meant. But please keep your >speculations centered on the books rather than the movies. > > >Also, we know that discussions tend to repeat themselves on >the list. Do we ever! But it's perfectly okay to bring a topic up >again (and again!) as long as you're not just repeating a >question from the VFAQ. There's no need to apologize. On the >other hand, just because you can't stand to read another word >about Ginny's crush on the Giant Squid doesn't mean that >everyone else has to feel the same way. Simply ignore those >posts and concentrate on the ones that interest you. > >Magically yours, >The List Administration Team > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger From pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net Sat Aug 2 18:17:31 2003 From: pinguthegreek at pinguthegreek.net (Pinguthegreek) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:17:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: What's On Topic References: Message-ID: <005301c35922$5a25c250$535fc487@personal> No: HPFGUIDX 74899 ----- Original Message ----- From: Nineve Laguna To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 7:10 PM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] ADMIN: What's On Topic Is this a group message or a personal one? If group, fair enough. If personal, I don't know what you mean. Nineve. Just to make it absolutely clear : If a subject header has ADMIN, in capital letters like that, it means that it's something we expect list members to take notice of. Michelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shaman at mac.com Sat Aug 2 18:19:23 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 14:19:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron/Hermione - What's the attraction? In-Reply-To: <3F2B9BF1.7030503@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74900 On Saturday, August 2, 2003, at 07:09 AM, Przemyslaw Plaskowicki wrote: > samnanya wrote (2003-08-02 03:39): >> >> The first and most significant wedge is Ron becoming prefect instead >> of Harry. Hermione's glee when she sees Harry holding the badge and >> thinking that it was Harry that became the prefect was brilliantly >> shown >> by JKR in her shrieking reaction and the simple line "Me too, Harry, >> me too!" >> >> The sheer joy she expresses in those five words is amazing. She is >> VERY disappointed when she finds out that it is Ron instead of Harry. [ Nicely-done recap of the "Prefect-Confusion incident" ] [ by Pshemekan, deleted ] > Pshemekan: > Nope, no disapointment here. Really? You've done a marvellous job of detailing the progress of the scene; Hermione went straight from unbridled delight to absolute mortification (a totally natural transition, IMO), just as you've laid out - but your insistence that her delight contained no joy @ sharing something special w/ Harry seems to contradict the plain meaning of the text. By the same token, claiming that her embarrassment @ having just stuck both feet in her mouth *does not* obscure any disappointment at Harry not being made Prefect *because*she*feels*none*...well, it seems both arbitrary and unfounded in light of the passage itself.. In other words, I think you're inserting your desires (ie, for R/H SHIP) into the text, not finding a basis such a relationship there. > I respectfully submit this to be a pro R/H moment. Especially > Hermione's > defence of Ron. "A pro R/H moment"? Hermione's "DEFENSE" of Ron? She's just embarrassed not only herself, but BOTH of her best friends; Both of them have just seen her obvious delight @ sharing Prefect status with Harry, and both have just seen that joy wiped away by her bewilderment @ Ron's prefecture(?) (ie, no 'Oh, Ron, how wonderful!), followed by her horror as she realises just how thoroughly she's put her foot in it. As for Hermione's defense of Ron in this instance: defending Ron against herself? She innocently / cluelessly made a mess of things, she's groping for a way of minimising the impact of what she's just done, and she's realising it's a hopeless effort - this is her coming to his defense? I'm really sorry, I'm NOT trying to be difficult or argumentative here - but I just don't see what you're basing your conclusions on. Unless you believe that "not getting along" = "true love", absolutely and always; that might explain the tendency for the R/H crowd to cite every instance of friction between the two as if it was proof of their destiny together. It would also explain the success of Jerry Springer, but that's a different conversation. (BTW: I did look into that stack o' links you posted - at least one of the pages you linked was just this: Listed quotes, seemingly of every exchange R & H ever had, as if every single one of them was indicative of a strong underlying attraction. IMO only one did so, in any sense ("Oh," said Ron brightly, "so Hermione's alright!") I have some experience w/ dating behaviours and It's just not true that quibbling, quarreling and bickering always indicate sexual tension / attraction / hidden desires. When such feelings are present the verbal interplay is quite different, and the reactions to such exchanges are fairly distinct, and easy to recognise. JKR has put nothing of the sort on paper as between Ron & Hermione. Their verbal exchanges, their opinions regarding each other, their attitudes about life & themselves, & their general dissimilarities, as presented on the page by JKR, are entirely inconsistent with the fundamental premise of Ron and Hermione as a likely match. I didn't come into this with the notion that Harry & Hermione ought to end up together; I just read the books; and when I first encountered the R/H hypothesis, I was puzzled, because I could recall nothing in the books to support it. The more I've looked looked into it, and the more I've read the arguments for and against R/H, the more convinced I've become that it simply has no basis in the canon. In the interests of fairness, here's the firmest argument I've heard, pro R/H: Ron makes Hermione laugh, and Harry doesn't. I haven't checked this out for myself, so I can't vouch for it, but I acknowledge that a shared sense of humour is an important thing in a relationship. Even so, this point (if true) would be more an obstacle to H/H, not a boost to R/H, given their near-total incompatibility. The R/H SHIP, in SHIPping terms, is little more than a walnut-shell half, holding a toothpick, anchored in wax, to which has been taped a tiny, tiny flag - adrift on the wide, wide sea. Only its lack of substance allows it to remain afloat. I stand, as always, ready to listen to any argument that derives from JKR's text and does not fly in the face of observable human behaviour. -- Charlie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 2 18:19:54 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:19:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: <005901c3591f$407d0820$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > From: marinafrants > Have we ever seen a single student with whom Snape's methods > succeeded? A single student who started out being bad in potions, worked harder in response to Snape's bullying, showed improvement and got a better grade <> I don't believe Snape's teaching style works. Any kid who does well in his class (such as Hermione) does it in spite of him, not because. > > Marina > > ---------------- > > Yes, actually, we do. Neville Longbottom, who had never betrayed any real magical or academic talent except in Herbology, and is a constant 'poor performer'(not just in potions), actually passes his potions exam. > > Dawn It's not true that Neville has never shown any talent except in Herbology. He did well both in Lupin's DADA class, and in Harry's DA lessons. His competence tends to be proportional to his confidence, which Snape has systematically crushed. Neville is able to scrape through his Potions O.W.L. because Snape wasn't there to terrify him into failure, not because Snape's bullying has improved his potions skills. How much better might Neville have been if he'd been taught potions by a compassionate and encouraging teacher like Sprout or Lupin? Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From andie at knownet.net Sat Aug 2 18:21:46 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:21:46 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74902 ADVERTISEMENT In my opinion, another trajedy surrounding Sirius' death will be the loss of his wonderful lines from the series. You've got to admit, he's had some great ones! Therefore, in his memory, I thought it would be great to list our all time favorites... Here are a few of mine: 1. "You are truly your father's son, Harry." PoA 2. "If you made a better rat that a human, it's not much to boast about, Peter." PoA 3. (I can't remember this one exactly, and it's a long one, but... ) When they can't find Kreacher... "He's probably in the attic crying over my mum's old bloomers." OoP [Again, sorry for mutiliating that line!] Anyone have any other favorites they'd like to add??? :) grindieloe (who decided after posting this on ot-chatter that it may just be appropriate for the main list - my apologies if it isn't!) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Aug 2 18:22:56 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:22:56 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > But I still wonder then why Flamel and Dumbledore decided the stone > would be safer at Hogwarts, or even at Gringott's than with Flamel. > > This is way too much fun, > > KathyK (still dizzy and enjoying it) Only a guess,but maybe the move was the result of Spy!Snape coming up with the goods. So far we haven't heard of anything useful being acheived by his undercover work, but if he heard of an attempt to get the Stone then DD would take action to protect it. Kneasy From jenP_97 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 18:30:19 2003 From: jenP_97 at yahoo.com (Jennifer Piersol) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:30:19 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74904 Hi, all. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > True, Harry has expressed an interest in being a Auror. But... the > average kid that age thinks of being a fireman, policeman, astronaut, > rock star, movie star, etc... because they are all glamorous and > exciting, and of course, the particular desired professions changes > several times a day. It's true, I have no idea how boys' minds work, but at the age of 15, I assumed that kids were starting to have a more realistic viewpoint of their future. I always thought boys around the age of *5* wanted to be firemen, policemen, astronoauts, etc. When I was 15, the boys I knew wanted to be in the armed forces (I lived in a Naval town, so some of us didn't have much imagination), architects, pilots, and I had a major crush on a budding entymologist, if you can believe it. > So, it is reasonable that Auror seems dangerous and exciting now, but > how is Harry going to feel after a few more encounters with Death > Eaters and Voldemort, and after the ULTIMATE encounter with Voldemort? > > These encounters at the end of each book are brutal. Harry is a > complete mess after each of them and usually spends a significant > amount of time in the hospital. Now on top of the brutality and trama > he has and will endure from these encounters, Dumbledore has told > Harry it must end with him being murdered or commiting murder > (murder=Harry's own words). Plus, Dumbledore and circumstances have in > essence told Harry that the weigh of the world, more specifically the > fate and lives of the wizard world, are resting on his shoulders. > So... no pressure there Harry. Just a little quibble. After Voldemort is gone... could it really be a whole lot worse than what he's facing now? Sure, killing Voldemort isn't going to eradicate all evil - but sheesh... it's like he says to Malfoy, Jr., et al at the end of OOP - is Voldemort just a practice round for the *really* evil wizards out there? Personally, I think being an Auror is going to be a lot *LESS* dangerous once V's gone and those random Death Eaters out there have no rallying point. > How much can one little boy be asked to bare? Especially, when he is > so poorly supported; emotionally, physically, intellectually, and > magically. Is he really little? Is he really so poorly supported? I'm just going to have to disagree with this assessment. > I also predict that the tramatic and brutal encounters we've seen so > far are going to pale in comparison to what Harry has to face in the > next two books. Sure... I agree with this one. > After living throught hell, do you really think Harry wants to make > living in hell his profession? Not me. Ah, but he's "living" in hell right now because of the prophecy. He *can't* live while V's still out there. Like I said before, being an Auror isn't going to be quite so bad once V's gone. And it can't be all that bad now... otherwise, how on *earth* do they recruit new members? > Harry is going to come out of this deeply scared and tramatized, and > most critically, brutally famous. If he becomes an Auror, every wizard > with a problem is going to demand that the famous Harry Potter come > and solve it. Once word spreads, I can see calls coming in to the > Ministry from all over the world, begging for them to send Harry > Potter to save them from one form of evil or another. Those > unrelenting demands will mean that Harry is doomed to spending his > life under the constant threat of danger and death. Everywhere he > goes, everything he does, will mean countless people are going to be > depending on him to save them. Just because he's Harry Potter doesn't mean he's going to be the best auror out there. Just the only one that could have killed V. And I'm sure that by the time V's dead, everyone will know that Harry killed V. (if that is, in fact, how it ends up - I'm throwing my bets towards Harry biting the dust... I'll make more money... hehehe) because he was the only one that could. With all those aurors out there with more experience, I'm sure Harry won't be the wonder boy until (if the time ever comes) he can handle it himself. And by that time, he'll be old enough to be able to say, "No thanks... send Tonks instead." > As an Auror, Harry will be like Atlas, doomed to forever carry the > weight of the world on his shoulders, but unlike Atlas, Harry is not a > supernatural being. No mere mortal can carry that much weight for that > long without it eventually crushing him; without it eventually > destroying him. Okay, let's really think about this for a minute. How many aurors *are* there? We know there are at least 10-15, right? At least. And we don't even know who's in charge of the lot. These are all highly skilled wizards who have been through lots of training, and who most likely LOVE their job - otherwise, they would have been scared off long ago. I mean, even Moody still does some Auror work, and he's been hacked to pieces. If it were me, I would have retired after losing a huge chunk out of my nose. But no! He stayed in and lost an eye, too! Now are these people really going to sit by and let some kid take over the whole department? Doing all *their* jobs? Getting all the glory? Are they going to sit by and watch him have a nervous breakdown? I seriously doubt it. I mean, I just can't see him taking over as "Grand Poobah" of the Aurors, taking all the responsibility on himself. After finding out that the responsibility of getting rid of the most evil Wizard in centuries lies on his shoulders, I'm sure he'll be glad to just take orders from others for a while and not give in to his "saving the world" complex anymore. > No, I think once all is said and done, Harry will have more than his > fill of dark wizard fighting, and will be more content to live a > quiet, benevolent, unassuming life. Nah. > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > bboy_mn -Jen, who wonders what the odds are that Harry bites the dust in book 7 - and if she can get some action on that one. I'd be glad to lose $5 if I'm wrong... ;) From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 18:31:31 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:31:31 -0000 Subject: Ghosts (was: Re: the Fat Lady - Name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: The Grey Lady hasn't been identified more than thus, either - the Ravenclaw ghost? . . . It seems odd, as the other house ghosts have specific and front-of-house roles to play. The other thing about ghosts is, when Harry and Ron are waiting to go in to be sorted in PS, 'About twenty ghosts had just streamed through the back wall'. Where are they all? We only see the three house ghosts and Peeves.. > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria > Actually, we've seen all four house ghosts. Gryffindor - Nearly Headless Nick Ravenclaw - The Grey Lady Huffulepuff - The Fat Friar Slytherin - The Bloody Baron Nick is the only one who we know the actual name of. bibphile From shaw_steven at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 18:32:33 2003 From: shaw_steven at yahoo.com (shaw_steven) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:32:33 -0000 Subject: Unaccounted DEs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74906 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" > > wrote: > > > GREAT THREAD!!! > > > > > > Now Harry estimated "at least about 30" death eaters would fill > the > > > circle in the cemetary in GOF. > > > > > > We have Confirmed in the cicle Crabbe, Goyle, Nott, McNair, > Malfoy, > > > Wormtail. He then mentions 3 dead, one is a coward and one is > gone > > > forever. > > > > > > However, my question is this... we know that 10 wizards escaped > > > azkaban and that at least some of them were death eaters... > > > > > > That said, WHY DOES VOLDEMORT SEEM TO IMPLY THAT THERE ARE ONLY > TWO > > > OF HIS FOLLOWERS IN AZKABAN if there are far more??? > > > > > > IF there are 30 altogether (Harry's judgement by the circle > around > > > him) and only 3 are dead that leaves at least 27 more to be > > accounted > > > for. 20 are mentioned. That leaves 10 more unaccounted for... > why > > > might they be? > > > > > > but again, why would voldemort mention the lestanges in azkaban > but > > > not the rest of the DEs that went there for him? > > > > > Perhaps because even among DE's there is a heirarchy and some death > eaters are more equal than others. Perhaps the ones he mentions > are "officers"and the others merely "troops". > > June Me: Sirius does imply a bit of a hierarchy within Voldemort's Death Eaters by saying that his brother wasn't important enough to be killed by Voldemort himself. The inner circle of Death Eaters were the ones given the brands on their arms and were his 'lieutenants'. It was they who were commanded to disapparate and apparate at his location wherever that may be. (Interesting aside to the apparate spell - masters of this spell would be able to apparate accurately by homing in on Voldemort or some image imparted through the summoning? This would have been an aumusing joke to play on Percy when he would apparate downstairs for breakfast - move his chair!) The other Death Eaters freed from Azkaban may have been lesser members of the group. Steven Wishes he could apparate to avoid rush hour traffic From jendiangelo at cox.net Sat Aug 2 18:37:21 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:37:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74907 Grindielow: > In my opinion, another trajedy surrounding Sirius' death will be the loss of > his > wonderful lines from the series. You've got to admit, he's had some great > ones! Therefore, in his memory, I thought it would be great to list our all > time > favorites... > > Here are a few of mine: > 1. "You are truly your father's son, Harry." PoA > 2. "If you made a better rat that a human, it's not much to boast about, > Peter." > PoA > 3. (I can't remember this one exactly, and it's a long one, but... ) When > they > can't find Kreacher... "He's probably in the attic crying over my mum's old > bloomers." OoP [Again, sorry for mutiliating that line!] Now me (acciosirius - Jen): Great topic, as he was/is my favorite character! :-) In addition to your #2, one of mine has to be, "Personally, I'd have welcomed a dementor attack. A deadly struggle for my soul would have broken the monotony nicely." (pg.82, U.S. OoP) I'm sure I'll have more, I just don't have the time to look up the exact quotes right now! Jen From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 18:44:23 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 11:44:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030802184423.87035.qmail@web20704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74908 Geo wrote: GEO: She frowned when Harry told them that Cho kissed her. If anything their close friendship imo could be the basis of a relationship later in life. Furthermore any future permanent love interest that Harry has would have to replace Hermione's functions as advisor in all matters, his right arm and his confidente or else the relationship wouldn't work since no girl would actually like it if their boyfriend goes rushing off to his best female friend instead of them to ask for advice or for help. If anything the Cho relationship proved that. My reply: I agree with this very much. I have tried to stay out of this conversation because personally I think that the trio should find love elsewhere. But I know this is the cause of tension in relationships...my ex boyfriend's best friend was a girl..and while thier relationship was ever platonic...it got on my nerves a lot! I will say this..there is one girl who I see having the potential to take over as Harry's cheif advisor..and that is Luna. ~Mela ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 2 18:46:23 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:46:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Good Slytherin? References: <1059741351.12224.5523.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003e01c35926$5f947520$057d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 74909 Karen: >I've come to the conclusion that there is going to be some sort of >redemption/salvation for Draco. He comes from a dreadful family, >which he can't help, but he can help the decisions he makes. I think >that the point of these books is that it is our decisions that make >us who we are, and that people deserve 2nd chances. These themes are >pointed out again and again. Most of us would hate to think that a >boy born to a nasty family is doomed to be as evil as his parents. >Sirius is a good parallel. Totally different from the rest of his >family. There are so many parallel characters that we see in these >stories that it would make sense for Draco to be paralleled with >either James, who changed his bully ways by his seventh year, or >with Sirius, who "rose above" his family's prejudices. The further we've got into the series, the less likely I think that Redeemed!Draco is going to happen. I've surmised that it would need there to be some sort of alternative cause that Draco could adopt which was neither Voldemort's nor Harry's - possibly the "Salazar was misquoted" line of thinking. But I think that introducing that sort of new element at this stage just isn't going to happen. Especially after Lucius being arrested. Unless he can buy himself out of Azkaban, jump bail, or something to keep himself free, I think the most likely thing that will happen with Draco is that he will actually _gain_ status because "My father's a martyr for the pureblood cause, and I'm being very noble about it but also very angry with the ones who put him away" Anyway, I think that Redeemed!Draco would have to die nobly... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 18:50:03 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:50:03 -0000 Subject: Case for HP blabbing and running away In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74910 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dan Feeney" wrote: > This won't be a thorough as I meant it to be, since I have to do some > work today. > > First, the sterling example of Fred and George, with the added > strength of their business contact with him. They've "got style" and > they could be a rather useful extra-school contact. > > HP wants "OUT." (The door at Dumbledore representing the school > itself - Dumbledore won't let him leave.) Annemehr: I didn't take it thay way. I thought Harry wanted out of his very *life* (in the sense of all his circumstances, not in the sense of being suicidal). After all, it is not because he is a Hogwarts student that he is thrust into the center of the conflict with Voldemort. That being said, I do think it's quite valid to draw analogies between Fred and George's departure from Hogwarts and what Harry may do. Dan: > > HP *felt* like a pawn at the beginning of OOP. At the end of the > book, he *knows* he has been, and is, a chesspiece. > > HP thought he was a weapon at one point, and wanted to run away, to > protect his friends, and was relieved to think otherwise just a page > or two later. At the end of the book, he knows he is a weapon, as it > were. Both for Voldemort and for Dumbledore, as it were. (Death of > Sirius, retrieval of prophecy for DE, Dumbledore's abstemiousness > with truth, ostensibly for HP's own good.) Annemehr: That brings some things nicely into focus, including my feeling that Harry does seem to be being turned into an "object" (a weapon) by both sides. Even Dumbledore seems to feel this must be so, for the sake of many innocent lives. (This could be a subject for discussion in itself, though I won't pursue it here) Dan: > > The sit down by the lake until dark signals acceptance of his finally > understood role. > > The presence of OOP members at the end, talking to the Dursleys, only > hardens this sense of his being a chesspiece. Will he want to live in > a place that is livable only because OOP enforces it? > > Keeping the prophecy secret was not particularly constructive, aside > from forcing LV to reveal himself. > > Thematically now - > > As choosing not to talk about Umbridge's torture signalled his taking > the stigma as his own, steeling his resistance and sharpening his > defiance, so taking his role (fate, as it were) to himself would > signal an owned, chosen Potterhood. He will speak the prophecy, or > think it, to LV. This in conjunction with running away. > > Questions - > > How will he run away? Is he under house arrest? Any OOP members could > be tricked, some more easily than others, possibly. Annemehr: This idea of Harry running away is where you lose me; I would need you to expand on it. After all, just above you cited Harry's time by the lake as his acceptance of newly understood role -- surely running away would be a rejection of it? Unless you mean that he would be running away from Dumbledore's PLAN, in order to take matters into his own hands? Harry would disclose the prophecy to Voldemort (would V believe him?) and then as much as say, "Okay, Voldemort, it's just you and me now." If Harry is still on the chessboard then, it would be a board reduced to only the two kings, yes? I guess this would be a scenario for book seven, when Harry is of age and will have made some sort of plan of his own for how he would defeat Voldemort then. It also brings up the thematic question of whether Harry truly does it alone or with the support of friends. Dan: > > Where could he run to? > > A cave? > Fred and George? > Sweden? > > If you've any ideas where he could run to, please post them. > > dan Annemehr: He doesn't really know anyplace, does he? And this last bit you wrote really does sound like you think he will run away to *hide* which as I said, confuses me (and it's not what Fred and George did, is it? They ran away from Hogwarts to get on with life). I suppose all he could do is try to go somewhere remote where he could still scrounge Daily Prophets, and think. Sorry, I'm no help there! Annemehr From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 2 18:49:57 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:49:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... References: Message-ID: <006b01c35927$08922d20$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74911 From: marinafrants <> It's not true that Neville has never shown any talent except in Herbology. He did well both in Lupin's DADA class, and in Harry's DA lessons. His competence tends to be proportional to his confidence, which Snape has systematically crushed. Neville is able to scrape through his Potions O.W.L. because Snape wasn't there to terrify him into failure, not because Snape's bullying has improved his potions skills. How much better might Neville have been if he'd been taught potions by a compassionate and encouraging teacher like Sprout or Lupin? Marina ------------- On the other hand, he was considered by everyone to be a squib until his uncle took the extreme action of throwing him out of a window to force Neville into a magical act. He may have a nack for DADA as well as Herbology, but it does seem that he needs a heavy hand at times. I'm not in complete agreement with the methods Snape uses in class, but without any kind 'performance' chart or other comparison that shows his students to do better, worse or the same as under a different teacher, we cannot say it is inherently bad or unsuccessful. A friendlier, less stressful approach may have resulted in fewer ruined cauldrons, but would someone like Neville just give up and fade into the background if all he had to fear was a disappointed glance rather than an angry and disapproving teacher? Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Aug 2 19:01:28 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:01:28 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines or Last Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > ADVERTISEMENT > > In my opinion, another trajedy surrounding Sirius' death will be the loss of > his > wonderful lines from the series. You've got to admit, he's had some great > ones! Therefore, in his memory, I thought it would be great to list our all > time > favorites... > Sorry, but this is just too much for me. A favourite character for some he may be, but lets not get Messianic. A better bet is to try and imagine what his last line would have been (if he'd had time), when he fell through the curtain. How about: Wait till my public hears about this! ...as I face the final curtain...I did it my way! Why didn't that dumb kid use the damn mirror? Kneasy From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Aug 2 19:02:37 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:02:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74913 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acciosirius" wrote: > Grindielow: > > > In my opinion, another trajedy surrounding Sirius' death will be > the loss of > > his > > wonderful lines from the series. You've got to admit, he's had > some great > > ones! Therefore, in his memory, I thought it would be great to > list our all > > time > > favorites... > > > > Here are a few of mine: > > 1. "You are truly your father's son, Harry." PoA > > 2. "If you made a better rat that a human, it's not much to boast > about, > > Peter." > > PoA > > 3. (I can't remember this one exactly, and it's a long one, > but... ) When > > they > > can't find Kreacher... "He's probably in the attic crying over my > mum's old > > bloomers." OoP [Again, sorry for mutiliating that line!] > > Now me (acciosirius - Jen): > > Great topic, as he was/is my favorite character! :-) > > In addition to your #2, one of mine has to be, "Personally, I'd have > welcomed a dementor attack. A deadly struggle for my soul would have > broken the monotony nicely." (pg.82, U.S. OoP) > > I'm sure I'll have more, I just don't have the time to look up the > exact quotes right now! > > Jen Mine: "Well you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death." (P. 104 UK OoP) "There's Phineus Nigellus ... my great-great-grandfather, see? ... least popular headmaster Hogwarts ever had...[and the rest of this speech which is on P. 105 OoP UK]. To Snape: "You know, ....I think I'd prefer if you didn't give orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see." (P458 OoP UK) and many more. June From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 19:05:10 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:05:10 -0000 Subject: Book 6 Hint:New Minister for Magic? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74914 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: >> Ariadne: I agree there is a good chance Arthur could be the next, or > interim MOM. ALl I can say is, what will Percy think about THAT?!? > Hah! Little twit... Talisman, who is spreading the newspapers now, chimes in: I think his cauldron bottom will be a-leaking. From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 19:06:03 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 12:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic)VERY LONGISH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030802190603.44289.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74915 Bibphile wrote: Besides, Petunia does have praise-worthy traits. I don't think I've ever seen anyone with her dedication. She had dedicated herself completely (and unhealthly) to Dudley's happiness. She keeps house excellently. Wizards comment that her house is unnaturally clean. Dedication is a good thing. Now if only she'd apply that dedication to something good. bibphile My reply: Not to mention she took Harry in. I do not believe she was forced to do this..perhaps, encouraged a little but I don't know if she was neccessarily forced. And I must add that no matter what has been said..Petunia has never thrown her nephew out. She didn't argue with Vernon (Out of fear) but she did keep him here. Now I'm not saying I like Petunia...but I do think their is more to her. ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 2 19:18:22 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:18:22 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neville (Was: Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but..._ In-Reply-To: <006b01c35927$08922d20$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74916 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > > From: marinafrants > How much better might Neville have been if he'd > been taught potions by a compassionate and encouraging teacher like > Sprout or Lupin? > > Marina > ------------- > > On the other hand, he was considered by everyone to be a squib until his uncle took the extreme action of throwing him out of a window to force Neville into a magical act. He may have a nack for DADA as well as Herbology, but it does seem that he needs a heavy hand at times. > Neville's uncle was trying to elicit an instinctive response, not a controlled demonstration of knowledge and skill. An approach that works for triggering an unconscious reflex is not well-suited for teaching an academic subject. > I'm not in complete agreement with the methods Snape uses in class, but without any kind 'performance' chart or other comparison that shows his students to do better, worse or the same as under a different teacher, we cannot say it is inherently bad or unsuccessful. A friendlier, less stressful approach may have resulted in fewer ruined cauldrons, but would someone like Neville just give up and fade into the background if all he had to fear was a disappointed glance rather than an angry and disapproving teacher? > Neville did not give up and fade into the background in Sprout's class, or in Lupin's, or in Harry's DA sessions. In fact, the only time we've ever seen Neville attempt to give up on anything, it was potions -- he tried to dtop the subject, but wasn't allowed. In other instances, from schoolwork to dealing with his parents to getting a date for the Yule Ball, Neville's behavior is characterized by dogged persistence and nearly infinite patience. Look, I think Snape is fantastic. I admire the hell out of him for having the courage to reject the DEs and turn spy. I'm very sorry he was bullied as a kid, and his home life probably sucked. I respect his loyalty to Dumbledore, and his continued willingness to fight for the right side, even when the right side is composed almost entirely of people he hates. More power to him. But I really don't see why it's necessary to find a hidden virtuous motive for every nasty thing he does. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 19:22:41 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 12:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What Kreacher knows In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030802192241.36264.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74917 Lyne wrote: The house elves are treated as property, as a slave, but most house elves we have been introduced to WANT to belong to a family. Dobby was a bit of a one of, because he wanted to be free and paid for his work. I took house elf to mean an elf that belonged to a family, that served around the family home. As far as Ron's comment about elves being found in manors, etc., I took that to mean it was usually wealthy families who owned house elves. As far as Sirius' relatives, we know Dobby is devoted to Bellatrix and the other "cousins". I am curious as to how Hogwarts' house elves came to be there. Dobby was "hired" to work there, and he got Winky a job there, but all the others? There must be hundreds that work at Hogwarts... Anyway, back to Kreacher... I was thinking he has probably done all the damage he can do, unless he IS kept at Grimmauld Place AND the OoTP continue to use the house. WHat about you all? My reply: Kreacher is not loyal to all of the other cousins. Just Bella and Narcissa obviously. I'm sure his opinion of Andromeda is very similar to his of Sirius. ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 2 19:27:32 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:27:32 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74918 There are a lot, but here are a few that immediately leaped out at me when I saw the subject line: "Make it quick, Remus. I want to commit the murder I was imprisoned for." -- That line never fails to give me a chill. "I'm pretending to be a lovable stray." "The world is not divided into nice people and Death Eaters." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 19:30:18 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:30:18 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > > > > But I still wonder then why Flamel and Dumbledore decided the stone > > would be safer at Hogwarts, or even at Gringott's than with Flamel. > > > > This is way too much fun, > > > > KathyK (still dizzy and enjoying it) > > > Only a guess,but maybe the move was the result of Spy!Snape coming up with the > goods. So far we haven't heard of anything useful being acheived by his undercover > work, but if he heard of an attempt to get the Stone then DD would take action to > protect it. > > Kneasy That's an interesting idea. Do the supposedly former Death Eaters sit around and plot the return of Voldemort? Were others in on the plot to get the stone along with Quirrel? Snape could have found out from one of them that they wanted the stone and for what purpose. If Quirrel/Voldemort were the only ones in on it, what might Quirrel have done to attract Snape's suspicion that he was in league with Voldemort? I always thought Quirrel was in it alone with Voldemort as the fewer people who know of the plot the better, but who knows? I could keep going forever but I have to go to work in 10 minutes, KathyK From dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 2 19:50:40 2003 From: dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca (Lee) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:50:40 -0000 Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74920 *snip* > Why would any kid be motivated to work harder by the knowledge that > he's going to fail no matter what he does? To motivate somebody to > work harder, you must give them at least a tiny glimmer of hope that > their hard work will be rewarded. In five years, Snape has yet to > give Harry such a glimmer. > > Harry fails to hand in a potion. Snape gives him a zero. Harry > hands in a potion. Snape destroys it and gives him a zero again. > Why the heck would Harry try to do better after this? He might as > well take a nice long nap in every Potions class from now on -- the > result will be the same zero, but at least he'll be better rested. > I have to remind everyone, who says that Neville, and Harry, and Ron, and some-such, are failing potions, that... They are NOT failing potions! What they ARE doing is getting below average marks. They're getting the typical *just enough to pass* or in Harry's case *average* marks. If they were failing, they would have had to repeat first year, wouldn't they? And yet, according to the end of SS/PS, even Goyle manages to pass onto the next grade. Now, while people aren't doing spectacular in Snape's class, they aren't failing. Or we'd see people staying behind. Or is the English School system one that allows failed students to continue to the next grade "anyways" because I've been in that kind of system and its very flawed. I doubt that Dumbledor would encourage that kind of schooling. Suffice it to say, even if Snape has terrified the heck out of Neville (I had a teacher in high school who I was absolutley frightened of, so I know how he feels.) he's still passing, and so are the rest of the students. (That teacher is now somebody I truly thank for pushing me so hard. I don't think I'd be in University now without her afterschool guidance *much as I hated it* >o<) Therefore he must be doing something right if even Neville is passing. (I'm not saying being mean is helping, but some part of his teaching method must be working.) If Harry has anyone to blame for his poor marks, some of it should at LEAST be on himself as well. We see this time and time again. He waits until the last minute to finish assignments, essays, studying, he lets everything lag off, he does them in the dead of night when he's tired and cranky, and pulls low marks for it. I'd say, if Harry wants to pull better marks in something like potions, which requires concentration, he'll need to get some sleep instead of sneaking around at night, or going off to fly on his broom instead of getting his work done. And he'll need to do the homework, not spend all his time putting it aside. (I love Harry by the way, but Hermione is right about him needing to put his studies first.) Just a few minor thoughts, but I don't think we should blame all Harry's study problems on Snape. Its a half/half deal, and I think since Harry is passing, then maybe just a little more effort on both their parts will bring Harry into the area of "Outstanding." Oh, btw, am I the only one who thinks Harry is going on to Potions NEWT level? Think about it... ;) Lee From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 2 19:56:54 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:56:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape and Neville (Was: Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but..._ References: Message-ID: <007e01c35930$3a511340$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74921 From: marinafrants <I really don't see why it's necessary to find a hidden virtuous motive for every nasty thing he does. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com ----------- Believe me, I'm not. I suffered from some similar, if not so extreme, teaching styles at school, and I didn't do well with it. However, it DID work for some of my classmates, who did not cope as well with a more benign teaching regime. As far as I know, no one has actually failed their OWLS in Potions, no matter how badly they did in class. If this is the case, then Christy's argument that Snape is using a valid teaching method is substantially correct. It doesn't mean I applaude that method, and I don't consider Snape to be that good a teacher generally, but I do think he is a competent one. I also think we must accept that our view of him is tainted by Harry's POV, as he does seem to inspire something in his Slytherines at least. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From 8434793 at bellsouth.net Sat Aug 2 17:19:49 2003 From: 8434793 at bellsouth.net (greymalkin0602) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:19:49 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74922 I posted this a week or so ago on another Harry Potter message board, but there didn't seem to be much interest. We have had two major prophecies from Trelawney. In Book 3, it was predicted that Wormtail would rejoin Voldemort and help him return to power. In Book 5, an earlier prediction was revealed that implied Voldemort would be killed by Harry (real unlikely that after 7 books Voldemort prevails). Who are the predictions coming from? Why are they given to Dumbledore and Harry with all the Wizards and Witches around to choose from? In Book 3, the prediction was given to Harry and it has since come to pass. Harry was involved in making the prophecy happen by sparing Wormtail from Sirius and Lupin. Is this why the prophecy was "given" to Harry? Because he was crucially involved in making it happen? With this foreknowledge, could he have prevented it from happening? Why didn't/couldn't the unknown entity give it say to Voldemort instead? In Book 5, we learn the earlier prophecy was "given" to Dumbledore. Why Dumbledore? What role is he marked for, willing or unwilling, as the prophecy comes to pass? Dumbledore seems determined not to let Voldemort know what the prophecy contains, yet willingly tells Harry. Is this the role the unknown entity has picked for Dumbledore? Or is it protecting Harry from Voldemort until he is strong enough to fulfill the prophecy? Or is it something else? Why wasn't the prophecy from Book 3 on the shelf in the Ministry next to the earlier one? From Pottymouth65 at aol.com Sat Aug 2 17:20:14 2003 From: Pottymouth65 at aol.com (traci_barbour) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 17:20:14 -0000 Subject: Portraits Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74923 I have a silly question that may or may not have been previously submitted but I've checked the archives and can't really find anything that satisfys my inquiry. Perhaps one of you could help answer this question? - What determines the qualifications of who gets a portrait made? I mean, we all know the portraits hanging in Dumbledore's office were all past Headmasters/Headmistresses but what about the other various portraits hanging around Hogwarts? I'm assuming that those portraits are of people who are significant in some way or the other. If communication between the living and those deceased in the portraits are easy, then one would assume every portrait produced is capable of communication right? Although we know that until Sirius' name is cleared, the likelihood of his portrait isn't under consideration but what if in future books it is? What if his portrait is painted? Would he then be able to communicate to Harry? We know that these "enchanted" portraits are not only confined to Hogwarts as Sirius' mother's portrait at the Black house is able to react to outside disturbances whenever the sheet covering is removed. I am curious to hear other's thoughts on this. From dcgrasso1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 17:22:42 2003 From: dcgrasso1 at yahoo.com (Dori Grasso) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: <1059831905.7427.4759.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030802172242.17451.qmail@web14702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74924 > > ? On Thursday, July 31, 2003, at 09:06 PM, T.M. Sommers wrote: > > > In Myrtle's case, I did not get the impression that any magic was > > > used to get her to stop haunting; she was just ordered to. > > --Random832 wrote: > > yes, but that doesn't mean that had she disobeyed that order there > > would necessarily not have been consequences > What can they do to her? She is already dead and confined to a public restroom. > Olaf Nope. She's not confined at all, it's just where she's most comfortable. She attended Nick's Deathday Party, and shocked Harry in the Prefects' Bathroom, and if I recall correctly, also drifted along with him while he was searching for Ron during the second task in GoF. Dori __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dcgrasso1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 17:44:10 2003 From: dcgrasso1 at yahoo.com (Dori Grasso) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 10:44:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: <1059831905.7427.4759.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030802174410.31889.qmail@web14701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: >> >> Nor could Snape when the positions were switched. Compare >> Harry's behaviour when Snape was experiencing his memories >> to Snape's behaviour when Harry was doing the same. Who was >> throwing cans at who, exactly? >> Salit >That is a cheap shot. Harry turned the tables when he did the >Protego spell and broke into Snape's memories. Snape told him that >it was effective and made no mention of the incident. Just as he >didn't gloat over Harry's unpleasant memories that he got to see. >Snape threw things at Harry when he found the brat inside his >Pensieve, violating his privacy in a truly appalling way. And I >can't say I blame him for reacting the way he did. >Mim One VERY telling incident re Snape's true loyalties, in my mind, was during the scene in Umbridge's office. Snape instructed Goyle (or was it Crabbe? I don't have the book in front of me) to loosen up on his chokehold on Neville, phrasing it in such a way that it seemed as though he was concerned about Goyle (something to the effect that if Goyle choked Neville to death, Snape wouldn't be able to give him an outstanding job referral). It was effective (ensured Neville's safety), yet still in character for those who did not know him to be a member of the Order. (It even fooled at least one person who knew-- Harry-- though I'll bet Hermione saw through it!) Snape made sure all the non-Slytherin kids were safe, effectively stopped Umbridge from learning more by claiming he was out of veritaserum, got Harry's message, and very quickly passed it on, all while keeping his cover. I'm neither a Snape-lover nor -loather (my goodness, people, these are books ostensibly written for KIDS, for heaven's sake!!!), but I found myself really liking the way Snape's character was written in that scene. Dori __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From newyorkcutie200 at aol.com Sat Aug 2 18:04:35 2003 From: newyorkcutie200 at aol.com (newyorkcutie200 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 14:04:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Riddle House Message-ID: <187.1d753ae2.2c5d5733@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74926 In a message dated 8/2/03 1:04:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carolynwhite2 at aol.com writes: > Does anyone have any theories on who now owns the Riddle House ? We > are only told that someone owns it 'for tax reasons, whatever they > may be'. I believe that Lucius Malfoy is the owner of the house. He may be keeping the house to store dark objects. -Amanda [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 2 18:36:21 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:36:21 -0000 Subject: Did Molly dislike James? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74927 Hi, This is my first post here, so hello :-) There is something that has been bothering me since I read the OOP, and I hope it hasnt' been asked before. On page 84 of the British version Molly says: 'What's wrong, Harry, is that you are *not* your father, however much you might look like him!' She does emphasize the *not* and I am wondering why she does this. It suggests to me that she did know James personally and didn't like him very much. I know she says that line to remind Sirius that Harry is not James, but I think she is also refering to James character and personality, for which she doesn't care very much imo. So does this mean she had to work with James and developed her dislike for him that way? I would like the hear your opinon. If you think this shows that Molly disliked James. I might be not objective on this as I never liked James (even before book 5). Sachmet From dcyasser at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 18:49:35 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 18:49:35 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74928 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > So, it is reasonable that Auror seems dangerous and exciting now, but how is Harry going to feel after a few more encounters with Death > Eaters and Voldemort, and after the ULTIMATE encounter with Voldemort? > > These encounters at the end of each book are brutal. Now on top of the brutality and trama he has and will endure from these encounters, Dumbledore has told Harry it must end with him being murdered or commiting murder(murder=Harry's own words). Harry is going to come out of this deeply scared and tramatized, and > most critically, brutally famous. Everywhere he > goes, everything he does, will mean countless people are going to be epending on him to save them. > > As an Auror, Harry will be like Atlas, doomed to forever carry the > weight of the world on his shoulders, but unlike Atlas, Harry is not a supernatural being. No mere mortal can carry that much weight for that long without it eventually crushing him; without it eventually destroying him. > > No, I think once all is said and done, Harry will have more than his fill of dark wizard fighting, and will be more content to live a > quiet, benevolent, unassuming life. > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > bboy_mn This was an excellent post and I had a hard time snipping! Your ideas about post-confrontation Harry made me copy this post from another thread because I think it fits here with ideas about Harry's future. I don't think Auror will be Harry's career choice, because I do not believe he will wish to pursue dark wizards, however, I also don't believe he will be forever beleaguered by distress calls. My reference point is the other character we know who is famous for defeating a dark wizard: one Albus Dumbledore. Perhaps that plays into DD's overprotection of Harry - he knows from personal experience what Harry may face, even beyond the ultimate encouter with LV. I would like to know more about DD's defeat of Grindelwald and hope JKR shares it with us. Because Hermione hasn't quoted it to us from a history book (yet) I wonder if it is public knowledge: how did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald? It had to have been a monumental moment in wizarding history, yet DD is not obviously scarred, a la Moody; he is sane, if whimsical; he has obviously been able to lead a productive and healthy life following that confrontation and victory, and he is certainly in possesion of his powers, enough to make LV tremble in his booties. Early on in the series he does have Fudge calling on him constantly for advice, and he doe head up both incarnations of the Order, but otherwise he seems to live the balanced, even somewhat serene headmaster ife, even if he is the greatest sorcerer in the world. We tend to imagine Harry post-LV as either dead, scarred, without magic, estranged from the magical world; or just really unhappy. Yet we and Harry have to look at DD as a role model in evil-wizard-battling; perhaps DD was even prophesied to defeat Grindelwald, we don't know. But I expect more exposition on DD's personal history as a guidepost for what Harry may or may not be able to accomplish vs LV, and as to what the personal cost of it may be to Harry. Does it have to end with Harry destroyed, literally or figuratively, or does DD have other tricks up his sleeve to mentor Harry? cheers dc From readzalot at shaw.ca Sat Aug 2 19:12:46 2003 From: readzalot at shaw.ca (Deb) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 19:12:46 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellejir" wrote: > The point is that Snape has hated and mistreated Harry since he first > met him (when Harry was an 11 year old boy, I will remind you.) Was > he nasty to Harry during his first Potions lesson because Harry was > insolent and arrogant? Nope. He began his public-humiliation-of- > Harry campaign simply because Harry looked like his father. I do think that Snape came to that first Potions class with pre-conceived ideas about Harry. Possibly because he expected that Harry, looking like his father, would act like him. Possibly because he read Harry's mind under the Sorting Hat going "Not Slytherin, not Slytherin." And likely because of the reaction of the other students and staff, who were in awe of him, and not because of any effort on his part. On the first day of classes "Whispers followed Harry from the moment he left his dormitory next day. People queuing outside classrooms stood on tiptoe to get a look at him" Canadian edition, p.99 and with Flitwick, when he took attendance, "when he reached Harry's name he gave an excited squeak and toppled out of sight" p.99 Snape being Snape, can see why he would be suspicious of Harry's attitude the first day. He assumed Harry would be full of himself, as his father was. All his comments to Harry were from this point of view: "Ah, yes," he said softly, "Harry potter. Our new - celebrity." p.101 He asked those questions of Harry to prove a point. As he said "Tut, tut - fame clearly isn't everything." p.102 The man isn't nice. He does not have a positive teaching method. He is not fair. But, I think there were reasons behind his first reaction to Harry beyond him just looking like his father. Deb S, aka readzalot, Canada From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 19:23:31 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy Jewell) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 12:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: <1059850902.9076.31155.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030802192331.55061.qmail@web41408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74930 Marina said: Why would any kid be motivated to work harder by the knowledge that he's going to fail no matter what he does? To motivate somebody to work harder, you must give them at least a tiny glimmer of hope that their hard work will be rewarded. In five years, Snape has yet to give Harry such a glimmer. My reply: Has Harry ever failed Potions? Never once do we hear of Harry getting his end of the year grades and finding he failed Potions. In fact in one book, he notes that he did indeed pass, despite his thinking he failed. Marina said: Harry fails to hand in a potion. Snape gives him a zero. My reply: Darn right he got a zero. No work, you fail, end of story. Why should he give Harry a grade for NOT completing his work? Marina said: That only works if you actually do give them a better grade if they work harder. Snape doesn't do this. If he doesn't like somebody -- like Neville or Harry -- it doesn't matter how hard they work, they'll never do any better. And the kids know this. My reply: Well, again, we have no real proof of what grades the kids actually get. Harry perceives that his grades are horrible. Lots of kids in my classes feel the same way, until they get a report card and find out that they did well. Marina said: Have we ever seen a single student with whom Snape's methods succeeded? A single student who started out being bad in potions, worked harder in response to Snape's bullying, showed improvement and got a better grade? Or is this going to be another one of those "they're all over the place, Harry just failed to notice them over the course of five years" arguments? My reply: Again, we don't ever see the actual grades, so there's no real way to know, is there? All we have is Harry's perceptions and feelings. Marina said: If that's true, it certainly explains a lot about the state of modern inner-city schools. If I was an inner city kid and a teacher treated me the way Snape treats Harry, dropping out to join a gang would seem more attractive every day. My reply: Well, the only proof I can offer is this. I live in New York City where better than 50% of most kids will never pass their Regents exams. Close to 75% of my kids pass, compared to an average of 30 - 40% with most of their other teachers. Their reasons why? Because I made them work harder. Tough? You bet. Does it work? Absolutely. Marina said: Teachers are not there to be the kids' enemies, either. Or at least, they shouldn't be. My reply: I don't honestly believe that Snape hates Harry. Does he love Harry? Nope. But who says he has to? I don't love all my students. But I do want them all to do well, and I push them to do their best. They don't always see it that way immediately. Youth has a way of doing that. Teachers need to be FAIR, and we have little evidence that, as far as grades are concerned, Snape is unfair. Remember, that despite thinking that Draco is Sanpe's favorite, he still does worse than Hermione, and he doesn't like her either. How much more fair can Snape be? Christy __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 2 20:26:54 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:26:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... References: Message-ID: <008601c35934$6b258ba0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 74931 From: Lee <<>>If they were failing, they would have had to repeat first year, wouldn't they? And yet, according to the end of SS/PS, even Goyle manages to pass onto the next grade. Now, while people aren't doing spectacular in Snape's class, they aren't failing. Or we'd see people staying behind. Or is the English School system one that allows failed students to continue to the next grade "anyways" because I've been in that kind of system and its very flawed. <>>> --------- We don't have 'grades' the same way that the USA has, but once we get beyond 'primary' level (the first six years) we are more likely to be 'streamed', so that we take specific lessons with others of our own general age and ability. It is possible to be held back a year, or even put up a year, but it is rare. It also means that if someone has a change in their ability during an academic year, they can be shifted up or down in the streams. This happened to me - as an undiagnosed and fairly mild dyslexic, I had little problem with words, but a great deal of trouble with numbers. When I transfered from my primary scholl, I was rated as marginally above remedial in Maths, and placed in the lower of four streams in that subject. Two terms and a slightly different teaching regime saw me move up two more levels. As I understand it, my poor maths skills would have had me repeat the whole 'grade' in America. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 20:05:04 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 20:05:04 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74932 If Quirrel/Voldemort were the only ones in on it, what might Quirrel have done to attract Snape's suspicion that he was in league with Voldemort? I always thought Quirrel was in it alone with Voldemort as the fewer people who know of the plot the better, but who knows? > KathyK Snape's Legilimency/Occlumency skills must have been at work for him to discover Quirrell's secret and keep Voldemort from realizing Snape's true motives in SS/PS (if indeed Voldemort realizes Snape is on the other side now.)--Ariadne From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 2 20:33:25 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 20:33:25 -0000 Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lee" wrote: > *snip* > > I have to remind everyone, who says that Neville, and Harry, and > Ron, and some-such, are failing potions, that... > > They are NOT failing potions! My apologies. When I said "fail," I meant it in the sense of "not succeed" rather than in the sense of "receive a failing grade." I didn't mean to create confusion. No, they're not failing Potions. Snape is not an idiot. What he's doing is standard practice among teachers who take a personal dislike to a student -- give as low a grade as they know can get away with. If Snape went around flunking students he didn't like, it would lead to professional awkwardness. Parents would complain. If enough complaints came in, Dumbledore or the Board of Governors might actually get involved. If a lot of students are regularly failing a core subject while doing reasonably well in other classes, sooner or later somebody is going to suggest that perhaps this subject should be taught by somebody else. I suspect that this why Snape didn't start handing out zeroes to Harry until the year that grades are disregarded in favor of O.W.L.s. > Just a few minor thoughts, but I don't think we should blame all > Harry's study problems on Snape. I'm not. Harry is not a very scholastically minded kid, and it's obvious that he's not giving his academic best in most of his classes. But refusing to grade him fairly on the work he does do isn't going to motivate him to put in more work just so he can get unfairly graded on that, too. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 20:22:17 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 20:22:17 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > True, Harry has expressed an interest in being a Auror. But... the > average kid that age thinks of being a fireman, policeman, astronaut, > rock star, movie star, etc... because they are all glamorous and > exciting, and of course, the particular desired professions changes > several times a day. I hope Harry ditches the Auror idea and decides to become a professional Quidditch player. If anyone deserves an easier life (besides the bludgers, of course), it's Harry. Rowling always includes glowing descriptions of how Harry feels when he's flying, and it is bliss for him. It could just turn into a nice hobby to take his mind off his work as an auror, but I hope if he's still around when the curtain falls, he will choose to give himself a break for awhile. Ariadne From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 2 20:51:00 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 20:51:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: <20030802192331.55061.qmail@web41408.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Christy Jewell wrote: > Marina said: > Harry fails to hand in a potion. Snape gives him a > zero. > > My reply: > > Darn right he got a zero. No work, you fail, end of > story. Why should he give Harry a grade for NOT > completing his work? I never said he should. This was only the first half of my example. The second half, which you snipped, pointed out that when Harry did hand in a potion, he got a zero anyway. My point was, Harry got the same result for working as for not working. So what's his motivation to work? > > Marina said: > That only works if you actually do give them a better > grade if they > work harder. Snape doesn't do this. If he doesn't > like somebody -- > like Neville or Harry -- it doesn't matter how hard > they work, > they'll never do any better. And the kids know this. > > My reply: > Well, again, we have no real proof of what grades the > kids actually get. Harry perceives that his grades are > horrible. Lots of kids in my classes feel the same > way, until they get a report card and find out that > they did well. Harry's been going to school for five years. He's gotten plenty of report cards. He knows what his grades are. If he'd been getting good grades in Potions, he would've noticed by now. > Marina said: > If that's true, it certainly explains a lot about the > state of > modern inner-city schools. If I was an inner city kid > and a teacher > treated me the way Snape treats Harry, dropping out to > join a gang > would seem more attractive every day. > > My reply: > Well, the only proof I can offer is this. I live in > New York City where better than 50% of most kids will > never pass their Regents exams. Close to 75% of my > kids pass, compared to an average of 30 - 40% with > most of their other teachers. Their reasons why? > Because I made them work harder. Tough? You bet. Does > it work? Absolutely. And when they do work harder, do you give them bad grades anyway, just because you dislike them? When they get their stuff together and hand in work, do you destroy it out of spite and give them zeroes? If you get a bright, enthusiastic student who does well from the very beginning, do you refuse to ever praise her and instead sneer at her for being a know-it-all and insult her appearance? > Teachers need to be FAIR, and we have little evidence > that, as far as grades are concerned, Snape is unfair. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree there. I think we have plenty of evidence that Snape is as unfair as he can get away with being. McGonagall is tough but fair, and her students appreciate that. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 20:54:27 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 20:54:27 -0000 Subject: Theory of the Love, Death, Voldemort (longish) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74936 ok, please bear with me on this one, it's a little long but I think you will see and understand why. starting with Professor Binns, lets consider a few facts first in OoP, Harry states that Hermoine is the only one who can resist the sleepy feeling in Professor Binns class. Also it was Hermoine that asked Professor Binns about the Chamber in CoS. PB (Professor Binns) has been going on and on about "facts", Goblin rebellions, giant wars, how things came to pass, etc.... (havent' found all the history of magic classes in all the books yet so this part is from memory). Hogwarts is a school of witches and wizards, (bear with me, I have a good point). Now other then Hermoine's class of Arithmancy, there are no regular classes, no math class, no english, no literture, that sort of regular class. They have charms, potions, transfiguration, herbology, if i miss one i'm sorry. you have the idea anyway. so why teach history of magic? it's a history class. and I know its a good idea to teach it to make sure that everyone has a good idea of magic, where it came from, etc...etc... and if i am correct in this assumption, Professor Binns, being a ghost, teaching, history of magic, then we have overlooked something here. Dumbledore says LV MARKED Harry as an equal, Harry's mother marked him with protection, his Aunt furthers this protection by allowing Harry to stay there (with her blood). that was a spell DD used to protect Harry, knowing that as long as he's there for just a month every year, Harry will remain protected, Petunia agreed to this, therefore she protects Harry with her blood. Voldemort took blood from Harry to be "reborn". Giving LV the same protection, even though this one I don't think works because LV doesn't live in at the Dursley's for a month every year, nor do I think he can call it home. can you see Vernon, saying, sure come on it, take a seat, stay a month. So it would not protect him in this manner, nor do I think that LV knows about this protection anyway. it will still protect harry (i hope). Sirius was (sob) harry's godfather. Harry loved Sirius so much that when he thought of death he thought well I will be with Sirius. Sirius loved Harry so much he died for him (basicly). LV fled Harry's body when harry thought it's ok, I can die, I'll be with Sirius. Everyone says that love is more powerful then death? finish this and see. LV says there is nothing worse then death?!. DD tells Harry that LV picked the "half-blood" not the "pure-blood". Excuse me? Which one of Harry's parents was muggle, Lily was Muggle born, that was in GoF (BTW been some post that maybe lily was not muggle born)(LV says so after his rebirth). James was pure-blood? Lupin would be a pure-blood given the fact that he longed to go to Hogwarts and wanted to go to Hogwarts when he was a kid and then he got bitten and thought he wouldn't be able to go. (PA) The four boys (james, sirius, Lupin, and Peter) and Lily form a bond at school that is rather brotherly (sisterly, with the exception of James). Peter betrayed them all, he broke that bond between himself and the others. harry and ron have been friends since the train. Neville is included of course because well, he is like a brother to Harry when it comes right down to it. When Harry got on the Knight bus the first time, the first name that came to mind was Neville's. Hermoine and the boys have built an amazing friendship so much in fact that she spends holidays with them. Except for the first year. Ron and Harry are together all the holidays except for that one month. The Weasleys basicly adopted Harry and Hermoine as one of their own. So what I am leading up to, this. What if History of Magic is not just teachign them about what has happened but teaching them the bonds that matter. What do I mean, simple Goblins work together they are united, giants don't work together, as Hagrid put it, they are not use to living in groups. Centaurs take no side be it muggle or wizard. House-elves are "part" of a family even though they are bound to that family by slavery, some of them do love the families that they serve, winky for example. Kreacher loves Mrs Black. Dumbledore stated that they are strong as they are united, weak as they are divided. Meaning that they must unite like a family, protect one another as if they were your brother/sister. care for one another, love one another. Throughout 5 books, two more to come (and I hope quickly) they have fought Voldemort together, Harry's mother and father died saving Harry, Dumbledore loves Harry like a son, Sirius was Harry's Godfather, Lupin Loved(S) James, Sirius, And harry like they are brothers, Harry's Aunt by taking him in is protecting him. Voldemort tool blood from Harray and everyone thinks Voldemort is scared of Death, that love will kill him. it's that bonds of family that will kill him. Voldemort never had a family, his mother died after having him, he murdered his father, He does not consider his Death Eaters Family. Upon his rebirth, Voldemort tells Harry his "true" family returns. He considers them servants. Harry and Voldemort are connected by more than that scar, Voldemort marked Harry as an equal, he is reborn using Harry's blood. Their wands share feathers from the same Phoenix. Anyone in the book that lieks Harry considers him family, Voldemort's Death Eaters do not consider Voldemort family, they consider him "Master". Like they are House-elves waiting for direction from him. His servants are not family to him and with harry, everyone considers him family. The sorting hat said that the founders lived together in Harmony, like a family. The sorting Hat has a problem dividing them up into different "houses". it does not want them to think of only their other students (Gryffindor-Gryffindor) but to think of others as family as well. (Gryffindor-Hufflepuff). Now that Voldemort has used the blood from Harry, he is a "blood-brother" to Harry and will not be able to survive with any part of a caring family person running through his veins. And one final thuoght since I know that this has been long, but it's just a thought, if Dumbledore is correct and Peter is indebted to Harry for saving his life against Sirius, since Voldemort used Peter's hand to be "reborn" would he not be indebted to Harry as well. I am sure that this is old magic, Dumbledore said that it was, and Peter tried to warn Voldemort before he did this, but Voldemort does not listen to servants. His downfall will be the family that is united at Harry's side and not to his. Oh and since you read this far, someone posted that the last line of Book 7 was someone asking Harry "Harry what happened to your scar?". Now if indeed this is fact not "fiction" then if Harry defeats Voldemort by using the "family bond" then the mark that Voldemort put on Harry would disappear without the connection to Voldemort through Harry's survival. Any ideas, anyone? From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 21:00:51 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:00:51 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greymalkin0602" <8434793 at b...> wrote: > I posted this a week or so ago on another Harry Potter message board, > but there didn't seem to be much interest. > > > We have had two major prophecies from Trelawney. > > In Book 3, it was predicted that Wormtail would rejoin Voldemort and > help him return to power. In Book 5, an earlier prediction was > revealed that implied Voldemort would be killed by Harry (real > unlikely that after 7 books Voldemort prevails). > > Who are the predictions coming from? Why are they given to Dumbledore > and Harry with all the Wizards and Witches around to choose from? > > In Book 3, the prediction was given to Harry and it has since come to > pass. Harry was involved in making the prophecy happen by sparing > Wormtail from Sirius and Lupin. > > Is this why the prophecy was "given" to Harry? Because he was > crucially involved in making it happen? With this foreknowledge, could > he have prevented it from happening? Why didn't/couldn't the unknown > entity give it say to Voldemort instead? > > In Book 5, we learn the earlier prophecy was "given" to Dumbledore. > Why Dumbledore? What role is he marked for, willing or unwilling, as > the prophecy comes to pass? Dumbledore seems determined not to let > Voldemort know what the prophecy contains, yet willingly tells Harry. > Is this the role the unknown entity has picked for Dumbledore? Or is > it protecting Harry from Voldemort until he is strong enough to > fulfill the prophecy? Or is it something else? > > Why wasn't the prophecy from Book 3 on the shelf in the Ministry next > to the earlier one? My reply: Dumbledore (IMO) was meant to get the first prophecy to try to change it. My only question is, if the Potters were in Hiding were the Longbottoms? did they come out of hiding after the Potters were killed, well James and Lily anyway? Lori From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 21:19:16 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:19:16 -0000 Subject: FF in fun: Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74938 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > Why would any kid be motivated to work harder by the knowledge that > he's going to fail no matter what he does? [...] > Harry fails to hand in a potion. Snape gives him a zero. Harry > hands in a potion. Snape destroys it and gives him a zero again. > Why the heck would Harry try to do better after this? He might as > well take a nice long nap in every Potions class from now on -- the > result will be the same zero, but at least he'll be better rested. > Okay, I can't resist putting Marina's image into words: The setting is a hypothetical Potions class sometime after the one in which Snape smashes Harry's potion sample. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Harry walked into Potions with Ron and Hermione, but instead of taking a seat near them, he walked by himself to a table in the front corner nearest to Snape's desk, far away from his friends. He had no wish to involve them in this in case he got them into trouble. Ron and Hermione exchanged puzzled glances but began unpacking their supplies in the back of the dungeon as usual. After Snape had started the class brewing the potion of the day (a slightly tricky one for shrinking warts), he began his rounds through the classroom. Out of the corner of his eye, Harry watched him creep up on Neville more quietly than usual, causing him to spill his entire bottle of Witch Hazel into his cauldron. With a look of satisfaction, Snape opened his mouth to comment, but before he'd really got going, he suddenly noticed the lack of Harry's presence near Ron, Neville and Hermione. His eyes swept over the students until he located him in the front. He went very pale as he registered what Harry was doing. "Potter!" Snape hissed as his eyes glittered threateningly down at him. "What is the meaning of this? Twenty points from Gryffindor and a night's detention if you can't give me a very good reason why you are sitting here with your feet on the table instead of brewing your potion! Well? What do you think you're doing?" "I'm earning my zero," said Harry. Annemehr who agrees with Marina From sydpad at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 21:31:18 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:31:18 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neville (Was: Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but..._ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74939 Marina wrote: > > Neville did not give up and fade into the background in Sprout's > class, or in Lupin's, or in Harry's DA sessions. In fact, the only > time we've ever seen Neville attempt to give up on anything, it was > potions -- he tried to dtop the subject, but wasn't allowed. In > other instances, from schoolwork to dealing with his parents to > getting a date for the Yule Ball, Neville's behavior is > characterized by dogged persistence and nearly infinite patience. I really have to rack my brain for canon on this, I only have GoF at the moment, but I thought it was pretty established that Neville did badly at all his classes, except Herbology-- that's why everyone keeps bringing it up Herbology as the exception, rather than Potions. Even McGonnegal gets pretty shirty with him: "Longbottom, kindly do NOT reveal you cannot even perform a simple Switching Spell in front of anyone from Durmstrang!" I certainly agree though that Neville would get better grades under a kindler, gentler teaching style than either McGonnegal or Snape though... mind you, Flitwick's totally laid-back method didn't seem to work either. I think Neville just needs a particularily dedicated sort of teacher like Lupin to bring him out by focused, gentle attention. Herbology I think suits him because it doesn't pressure him to do spells, or at least it doesn't seem to involve spells; just nice gardening stuff (albeit with man-eating plants). Attention to detail, care-taking, and independent pottering-around suit him right down to the ground (no pun intended). Off the top of my head, a scary thought though-- perhaps taking care of plants is some sort of displacement of taking care of his parents, who are also in a sense in a vegitative state. Yikes! Wish I hadn't though that... I have to say OoP disappointed me in Neville's development-- not that it's not great to see him start to blossom, it just wasn't very... bangy, I think the work is. Steady, patient maturation and development? How boring is that! I wanted fireworks! Repressed memory explosions in Potions class! Strum und drang! Sigh... Marina: > Look, I think Snape is fantastic. I admire the hell out of him for > having the courage to reject the DEs and turn spy. I'm very sorry > he was bullied as a kid, and his home life probably sucked. I > respect his loyalty to Dumbledore, and his continued willingness to > fight for the right side, even when the right side is composed > almost entirely of people he hates. More power to him. But I > really don't see why it's necessary to find a hidden virtuous motive > for every nasty thing he does. LOL! The Snape-polarizing effect getting you down? For my part, I think when Snape is given a job, he wants to win at it-- and if that means dragging his students through passing grades by the hairs of their heads, that's what he'll do. It doesn't seem likely that he WANTS to be a crap teacher-- I think he wants to be a good teacher, but, lacking the necessary people skills, resorts to trying to browbeat his kids into success. It's a personal pride and duty thing. I don't know if that counts as a hidden virtuous motive though! Sydney From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 21:43:28 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:43:28 -0000 Subject: Did Molly dislike James? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: On page 84 of the British version Molly says: 'What's wrong, Harry, is that you are *not* your father, however much you might look like him!' She does emphasize the *not* and I am wondering why she does this. It suggests to me that she did know James personally and didn't like him very much. I know she says that line to remind Sirius that Harry is not James, but I think she is also refering to James character and personality, for which she doesn't care very much imo. So does this mean she had to work with James and developed her dislike for him that way? > Sachmet > I disagree. I don't think she ever knew James very well (though she may or may not have met him). I think her comments has more to do with Sirius than with James. Sirius expects Harry to act like James and, to a certain extent, I think, treats Harry likes James. Molly has a problem with that. I think Molly's "He's not James" comment should be taken the same as Sirius's "He's not your son" comment. Sirius doesn't seem to be insulting Molly's sons. It's just that the two of them both care about Harry very much and they have different idea about what's best for him. bibphile From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 2 22:18:42 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:18:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Potter house was destroyed 15 years ago Message-ID: <36.4574190d.2c5d92c2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74941 > Atropos Gryffin: > >At this point Pettigrew transformed and ran off. The house was still > >in order (because AK is precise and does no collateral damage). > >Lupin comes to and finds baby Harry. Not knowing what has become of > >V. and Peter he immediately owls Dumbledore (or other order member) > >and then waits for assistance. But, oh no! The full moon shines > >through the windows, and he starts to transform. Since he is James > >he does not know how to handle it, he cannot control himself. He > >drops Harry and becomes wild/violent. He literally destroys the > >houseduring his transformation, then runs off knowing he may harm > >Harry. > The Full Moon of October 1981 was on the 13th (influence 12th-14th). Samhain that year would have been just past the New Moon. Lupin would not have been transforming at all that night. http://home.hiwaay.net/~krcool/Astro/moon/fullmoon.htm#04 Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 2 22:23:24 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:23:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Favorite Lines or Last Lines Message-ID: <110.2643672a.2c5d93dc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74942 In a message dated 8/2/2003 12:02:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: > A better bet is to try and imagine what his last line would have been (if > he'd had > time), when he fell through the curtain. > > How about: > > Wait till my public hears about this! > > ...as I face the final curtain...I did it my way! > > Why didn't that dumb kid use the damn mirror? "Oops!" "That's what I get for being a misogynist." (Something I've always felt about Sirius - he patronizes women.) "Some days, it just doesn't pay to get outta bed." "I shoulda listened..." Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From EnsTren at aol.com Sat Aug 2 22:27:59 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 18:27:59 EDT Subject: Surviving the AK, mother's sacrifice, more V/H parallels Message-ID: <18a.1da139e3.2c5d94ef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74943 Harry Potter survived the Killing Curse because his mother's sacrifice which it bounced off of, and hit Voldemort. Therefore Voldemort's own killing curse has hit himself. And as we all know Voldemort didn't die. Harry isn't the only one to survive the killing curse. Why is that? I was reading a fanfic and it made an excellent point. Harry survived because his mother gave her life for him. Did not the Heiress of Slytherin make the same sacrifice for Tom? To give her life so that he could live? Doesn't that entitle the Dark Lord to some protection as well? Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 22:41:57 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 22:41:57 -0000 Subject: Surviving the AK, mother's sacrifice, more V/H parallels In-Reply-To: <18a.1da139e3.2c5d94ef@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, EnsTren at a... wrote: > Harry Potter survived the Killing Curse because his mother's sacrifice which > it bounced off of, and hit Voldemort. Therefore Voldemort's own killing curse > has hit himself. > > And as we all know Voldemort didn't die. Harry isn't the only one to survive > the killing curse. > > Why is that? > > I was reading a fanfic and it made an excellent point. > > Harry survived because his mother gave her life for him. > > Did not the Heiress of Slytherin make the same sacrifice for Tom? To give > her life so that he could live? > > Doesn't that entitle the Dark Lord to some protection as well? > > > > Nemi > Sof: Well, Voldemort did explain in GoF that he had taken several measures to protect himself against death. I'm not sure a mother dying in childbirth quite counts as a "sacrifice." Lily Potter offered her life in exchange for Harry's, a deal Voldemort was unwilling to make. She went in knowing that it was her life for Harry's (though perhaps not knowing that she would still die and *that* would save Harry). If Voldemort's mother didn't expect to die in childbirth and proceed regardless of the cost to herself, then it really doesn't count as a willing sacrifice does it? From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 22:48:38 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 22:48:38 -0000 Subject: Snape Respects Harry Now In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: >He may also have felt (and justly so) that Snape failed his task of > teaching him Occlumency - first because he did not fully explain > what the purpose was (no mention of LV trying to implant false > visions to induce Harry to get to the MoM even though the OoP > must have known this was a possibility); second because he refused > to teach him after the pensieve incident. > Salit You're joking, right? I was under the impression that Harry speaks and understands ENGLISH! He was explicity told what occlumency was and why he had to learn it. He asked Snape if LV might try to make him do things, and Snape told it was a possibility. DUH!!! If Harry can't figure it out, I'd say he's after more than remedial potions. Allyson From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 23:03:04 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:03:04 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greymalkin0602" > <8434793 at b...> wrote: > > I posted this a week or so ago on another Harry Potter message > board, but there didn't seem to be much interest. > > > > > > We have had two major prophecies from Trelawney. > > > > In Book 3, it was predicted that Wormtail would rejoin Voldemort > and help him return to power. In Book 5, an earlier prediction was > > revealed that implied Voldemort would be killed by Harry (real > > unlikely that after 7 books Voldemort prevails). > > > > Who are the predictions coming from? Why are they given to > Dumbledore and Harry with all the Wizards and Witches around to choose from? > > > > In Book 3, the prediction was given to Harry and it has since come > to pass. Harry was involved in making the prophecy happen by sparing > > Wormtail from Sirius and Lupin. > > > > Is this why the prophecy was "given" to Harry? Because he was > > crucially involved in making it happen? With this foreknowledge, > could he have prevented it from happening? Why didn't/couldn't the > unknown entity give it say to Voldemort instead? > > > > In Book 5, we learn the earlier prophecy was "given" to Dumbledore. > > Why Dumbledore? What role is he marked for, willing or unwilling, > as the prophecy comes to pass? Dumbledore seems determined not to let > > Voldemort know what the prophecy contains, yet willingly tells > Harry. > > Is this the role the unknown entity has picked for Dumbledore? Or > is it protecting Harry from Voldemort until he is strong enough to > > fulfill the prophecy? Or is it something else? > > > > Why wasn't the prophecy from Book 3 on the shelf in the Ministry > next to the earlier one? > > My reply: Dumbledore (IMO) was meant to get the first prophecy to > try to change it. My only question is, if the Potters were in Hiding > were the Longbottoms? did they come out of hiding after the Potters > were killed, well James and Lily anyway? Lori Sof: Excellent questions. Dumbledore & Co. still haven't told Harry the whole story about his parents' death. We can easily surmise that since they knew that LV was after them, they also knew that it was because of Harry. If this was known in the Order, perhaps the Longbottoms didn't go into hiding seeing that the evidence was pointing away from their son. On the subject of Prophecy: these things are interesting. They really seem to function as an influence in and of themselves. I like to muse that the Prophecies are sent by outside forces who have done the math and come with a way to vanquish LV. However, in order for their plan to work, the people in the living world have to act. Just is enough is communicated to set things in motion. For example, there was no wizard living who had the power to match Voldemort alone. However, it was possible for Voldemort to transfer his powers to someone else thereby creating an opposite. There were two boys due to be born, and the best time to receive any kind of potential is when you are young and can grow into those powers. So the forces outside the world communicate this through Sybil Trelawney. And Prophecies being trickily worded as they usually are, Voldemort proceeds on incomplete information and false assumptions thereby setting this plan into motion. Harry now has his powers and the time (via LV's incapacitation) to grow into them. And now the possibility exists for someone to vanquish Voldemort permanently. I always look to a fascinating exchange in Season 1 "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" when considering this topic. After much refusal Buffy reluctantly sets out to fight The Master (vampire) in the hopes that she can in fact prevent him from leaving his prison. This confrontation has been prophesied in the Pergamum Codex as the event which will result in Buffy's death and The Master's release from a mystical prison. Just before he kills her, The Master says to Buffy: "Prophecies are tricky things...They don't tell you everything. If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. ...You're the one who sets me free. Think about that." So, if Buffy had stuck to her refusal to battle The Master he would in fact never have been released, she wouldn't have died, a second Slayer would not have been called, and down the line the possibility of empowering ALL Slayers would never have occured to her. Sorry if that spoiled the Buffy finale for anyone but my point is that a Prophecy is really just a suggestion, and the hope that gives to people guides the actions from then on. A few words and the road to new opportunities is suddenly illuminated. From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 2 23:08:35 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:08:35 -0000 Subject: Core Meltdown for Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74947 Does Snape know that Harry has been giving private tutorials in DADA? If not, I wonder how he will react when his finds out. The knowledge that Harry has taken it upon himself to teach something that he himself has dreamed of, and been prevented from teachig, might be enough to send Snape straight to St. Mungo's. Anyone else think Snape is going to flip his greasy wig!? Allyson From ratalman at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 23:23:00 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:23:00 -0000 Subject: Returning to the question: Is Snape a vampire/half-vampire? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74948 Returning to the question: Is Snape a vampire/half-vampire? On a whim I did a search on Google, typing in "bat greasy". To my surprise, a couple of web sites containing factual information about bats included references to some bats having fur that is greasy to the touch (http://www.ku.edu/~mammals/nyctic-macr.html). Another site said: "There will often be dark, greasy smudge marks on the wall just below the region where the bats are entering and leaving the building." (http://www.extension.umn.edu/distribution/naturalresources/DD 1141.html). Hmmm, could this be an explanation of why Snape is so commonly described as having greasy hair? I've often suspected that Snape changes into bat-form for his spying activities on LV and the DEs. I think we get another clue in the pensieve scene in "Snape's Worst Memory." Snape may have made use of a heightened sense of hearing (a characteristic of vampires?), that he was about to be attacked by Sirius and James. (Whether you buy that premise or not, I think that it can at least be argued that Snape was hanging around the MWPP to listen in on their doings, in an effort to gather evidence against them, or for whatever reason. By the time of the Pensieve scene, I think that Snape already knew alot about the four marauders, including their nicknames; he heard them being used by MWPP themselves (as could anyone else who happened to be standing nearby). I will return to this point in a bit, about the scene in PoA where Snape discovers that Harry has the Marauders Map.) During the O.W.L. DADA exam, Snape was sitting some rows behind MWPP. Harry tells us as much. After the exam was finished, MWPP filed out of the Great Hall, conversing about the werewolf question, and calling each other by name. They headed for the lake. "Snape followed, still poring over the paper and apparently with no fixed idea of where he was going." (OoP, p. 644, American ed.) MWPP settled down under the beech tree, Snape sat in the shadows of some bushes, still engrossed in the exam paper, Harry somewhere between them. Was Snape really absorbed in the exam paper, or using it as a cover for some eavesdropping on MWPP? Then James noticed Snape sitting nearby. I think that Snape overheard that Sirius was getting bored, and heard James alerting Sirius to Snape's presence. Accordingly Snape got to his feet, and was making ready for a get-away or to defend himself, IMHO: "This'll liven you up, Padfoot," said James quietly. "Look who it is...." Sirius' head turned. He had become very still, like a dog that has scented a rabbit. "Excellent," he said softly. "Snivellus." Harry turned to see what Sirius was looking at. Snape was on his feet again, and was stowing the OWL paper in his bag. As he ermerged from the shadows of the bushes andset off across the grass, Sirius and James stood up. Lupin and Wormtail remained sitting: Lupin was still staring down at his book, though his eyes were not moving and a faint frown line had appeared between his eyebrows. Wormtail was looking from Sirius and James to Snape with a look of avid anticipation on his face. "All right, Snivellus?" said James loudly. Snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expected at attack: Dropping his bag, he plunged his hand inside his robes, and his wand was halfway into the air when James shouted,"Expelliarmus!" (OoP, pp 645-6) During the Snitch episode, Lupin had taken out a book to study for the Transfiguration exam, apparently ignoring the goings-on. When he realised that James and Sirius were about to take on Snape, he pretended to be engrossed in his book, as he did throughout the exchange between James, Lily, Sirius and Snape. Clearly he was not really reading. (Just like Snape?) Then there is the fact that James and Sirius turned Snape upside down, bat-style, as others have noted. Now, back to PoA. I don't have that book in front of me, but when Snape sees the names of Moony, Wormtail, Padfoot, and Prongs, he immediately calls for Lupin. On my first read through PoA, I didn't think that Snape knew who those people were; Lupin apparently doesn't think that Snape knows either. But in retrospect, after OoP, it is clear to me that Snape did know who those names referred to, and that is why he asked Lupin to come. And the final vampire-ish bit is that comment that other people have noted, when Lupin says that he needs to have a word with Harry about the Vampire essay, in payback for Snape's essay on Werewolves. Tying these bits together the myriad references to bats throughout the books, and that others have cited in previous posts, I think that the evidence is mounting that Snape is a Vampire/half-vampire, whatever that means in JKR's magical world. Robyn From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Aug 2 23:42:12 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:42:12 -0000 Subject: Names, again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74949 I just noticed that when Malfoy interrupts the Occlumency lesson, Snape addresses him as "Draco". Has he ever addressed a student by his given name before? I don't remember that he has; even Draco he used to address as "Mr. Malfoy", or, I think, just "Malfoy", though that might have been when he was referring to him in the third person. Is this significant? I tend to notice when people do things one way for a long time, then do something different. I sort of hope it is; I'm not a big Draco fan, but I think that his character has stayed pretty one-note for 5 books, and it's about time something interesting happened to him. Wanda From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Sat Aug 2 23:49:51 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:49:51 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74950 greatelderone quoted: > > Actually she said. > > > > Couric: "Any snogging with Hermione?" "snip" *** > > > > Rowling: "RON and Hermione. There is more tension there, I would > say." > > > > So basically Rowling neither denied or confirmed the R/H or H/H > > ships. So we are basically back to square one on the issue of > > confirmation of the ships. > Talisman: > Huh? You don't see that as JKR saying the chemisty (& future > snogging)is between Ron and Hermione? If this interview were to be taken in isolation, the natural interpretation would be that JKR is saying that one would expect any snogging to be between Ron and Hermione. However, the immediate context is just before the release of OOP, and the questioning is building on GOF. The wider context is that JKR uses interviews to tantalise and tease, and has generally speaking deflected any question about anything she regards as important to the plot or final denouement. Harry's potential romantic relationships come, IMO, under this heading. So what I *think* is going on is that she is surprised that an H/H question has been asked when the visible tension in GOF was R/H (strictly speaking R->H). She *knows*, of course, that in OOP Hermione isn't going to snog either of them - but she wants to keep the tease going as long as possible. And she has succesfully deflected attention away from the identity of Harry's snogging partner in OOP, without either confirming or denying Hermione as a possibility. For these reasons I consider that the Couric interview gives neither knowledge nor truth concerning Harry or Hermione's relationships as intended by JKR. David From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 2 23:51:37 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:51:37 -0000 Subject: Snape and Neville (Was: Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but..._ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: (about Neville) > Herbology I think suits him because it doesn't pressure him to do > spells, or at least it doesn't seem to involve spells; just nice > gardening stuff (albeit with man-eating plants). Attention to detail, > care-taking, and independent pottering-around suit him right down to > the ground (no pun intended). That's very true. The thing is, thouggh, most of these aspects are also true of potions. Which makes me suspect that Neville could've excelled in Potions almost as much as he excels in Herbology if he had a teacher who was interested in teaching him instead of browbeating him. >For my part, I > think when Snape is given a job, he wants to win at it-- and if that > means dragging his students through passing grades by the hairs of > their heads, that's what he'll do. It doesn't seem likely that he > WANTS to be a crap teacher-- I think he wants to be a good teacher, > but, lacking the necessary people skills, resorts to trying to > browbeat his kids into success. It's a personal pride and duty thing. > I don't know if that counts as a hidden virtuous motive though! > See, I don't think Snape wants to be a teacher at all. I think what he'd really like is a nice, solitary research facility somewhere where he could mess around with experimental potions all day, and maybe torture some small animals on weekends. Instead, he's stuck teaching a bunch of stupid brats, so he takes out his frustrations by tormenting those brats as much as he can get away with. I agree that personal pride and a sense of duty (and a desire to keep his job) make him want to make sure that the brats learn at least the bare minimum, and that he tries to insure this by browbeating them into it. But I don't think he's interested in motivating them to excel, or teaching them meaningful life lessons, or improving their characters through tough love. He just wants them to finish school, go away, and stop annoying him. Which, now that I think of it, is another reason why Snape doesn't fail the students he hates -- if he did, he'd just be stuck with them for an extra year. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rshuson80 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 23:54:10 2003 From: rshuson80 at yahoo.com (oh have faith) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:54:10 -0000 Subject: Muggle-born adults Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74952 This thought occurred to me in a discussion last night and I was interested to know what others thought; Though there are plenty of students at Hogwarts who are muggle-born, or half-blood, there doesn't seem to be an *adult* character who is anything but pureblood. The only exceptions I can think of is Nymphadora Tonks, who we learn in OOP is a half-blood with a muggle father, and Tom Riddle, who got a mundane muggle name to go with his muggle ancestory. Now admittedly, we don't know anything much at all about the background of most of the adult characters, but all their first names that we know- Severus, Minerva, Remus, Alastor, Rubeus, Cornelius, etc etc - are classical names in Latin or Greek which suggest a wizard ancestory. Arthur Weasley, you might think, has muggle ancestory because of his very muggle name, but his delighted ignorance about all things muggle suggests he can't actually have had one for a parent, and Molly we know from OOP is a cousin of the Blacks, and so also pureblood. We know that Sirius and James were purebloods, and Pettigrew must be too to find so much favour with Voldemort, and Remus Lupin, name aside, was playing with were-wolves pre-school, suggesting a magical background. Even Arabella Figg, despite being a squib, claims to have wizard parents. I can't think of a single adult character, besides the two half-bloods, who have any name or habits or mannerisms that suggest they might be muggle born. This made me wonder if there might not be a reason for this. Were huge numbers of muggle-borns killed or frightened back into hiding in the muggle world by Voldemort, leaving the wizard world with a shortage? Is prejudice so entrenched in wizarding society that it's hard to get a job without a Name? Do muggle-borns just tend to drift back into muggle society and find jobs there? Do they tend to take new names and forge new habits to blend in? Of course, the name might not mean a thing; Hermione has a lovely classical name, after all, with two muggle parents (Contrary to some perceptions, Hermione is not a common name in modern Britain at all; JKR says she got it from Shakespeare. Shakespeare probably got it from Greek mythology; Helen of Troy's daughter was named Hermione). Maybe some of the people I listed did have muggle parents, albiet ones with a romantic taste in names! But it did strike me as odd, this lack of muggle-born adults. Any thoughts? Faith's Girl From rshuson80 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 23:57:52 2003 From: rshuson80 at yahoo.com (oh have faith) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:57:52 -0000 Subject: Core Meltdown for Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > Does Snape know that Harry has been giving private tutorials in DADA? > If not, I wonder how he will react when his finds out. The knowledge > that Harry has taken it upon himself to teach something that he > himself has dreamed of, and been prevented from teachig, might be > enough to send Snape straight to St. Mungo's. Anyone else think Snape > is going to flip his greasy wig!? > > Allyson Absolutely! Not necessarily over this issue, but Snape's going to have to either have prozac or some kind of epiphany, or his head is going to explode. When you're just that angry at the world, there's only so long you can bottle it up. Hope the bed next to Lockhart is free! ^_^ Faith's Girl From EnsTren at aol.com Sun Aug 3 00:02:39 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:02:39 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The lifecycle of a Fawkes (was : Neville's Wand) Message-ID: <1ca.e9ff7e3.2c5dab1f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74954 In a message dated 8/2/2003 12:59:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sleepingblyx at yahoo.com writes: > I think it is a matter of mental _and_ physical state... a Pheonix > is a magical creature-- which means it has the WILL to do its > bidding... this would, IMO, extend to matters of rejuvination. > Facinating idea and I think you hit the nail very nearly on the head! > Say it had lived happily in a home for 100 years and never seen a > conflict-- it would possibly go decades without "molting"... but a > war-torn bird might wish to combust sooner. > Or if it took an accidental dunk into the bog of eternal stench or WW equivlent > We know the bird reaches maturity at an accelerated rate... but when > it is reborn, does it keep its current state of awareness? The > pheonix can be a metaphor for reincarnation.... how does it change > mentally over time? > I think it keeps most of it's state of awareness. It's been proven in humans that...I don't know how to phrase this. Alright, a couple hundred years ago they thought that children were mentally miniadults and capable of the same feats of reason. This is not true, and is the reason why young children pitch fits if you give two the same amount of icecream in diffrent sized bowls. Now, would a psyc major please tell us if this has to do with IQ or the physical development of the brain. Also, do you think a "real" baby pheonix, as in one just hatched, develops at the same rate as a regenerated one? Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Aug 3 00:08:18 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:08:18 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74955 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sofdog_2000" wrote: > On the subject of Prophecy: these things are interesting. They really seem to function > as an influence in and of themselves. (SNIP) Just > before he kills her, The Master says to Buffy: "Prophecies are tricky things...They don't > tell you everything. If you hadn't come, I couldn't go. ...You're the one who sets me > free. Think about that." So, if Buffy had stuck to her refusal to battle The Master he > would in fact never have been released, she wouldn't have died, a second Slayer > would not have been called, and down the line the possibility of empowering ALL > Slayers would never have occured to her. > I love it when a prophecy turns out to be a trick like that. With the two prophecies Trelawney has made, I'd say the Pettigrew/Voldemort one was a bit flat. It was just a prediction of what would happen, and it turned out that that DID happen. The Voldemort/Harry one was much more interesting - as you said, as a result of hearing the prophecy, Voldemort acted in order to thwart it, and ended up fulfilling an important part of it. I've never watched Buffy, but this sort of plot device is an oldie but a goodie. That's what happens in "Oedipus the King": the King of Thebes is told by the oracle that he will be killed by his son. As a result, the baby boy is abandoned on a hillside in order to die, and the king thinks his problem is solved. But the baby is found by a shepherd who takes him home and he is adopted by the king and queen of Corinth. He grows up to be Oedipus, and when he is an adult, an oracle prophecies to him that he will kill his own father and marry his mother. Oedipus also tries to thwart the prophecy, and runs away from the family he believes is his own. However, he meets his real father, the king, in disguise, and kills him. Then he goes to Thebes, and after a number of adventures, marries the widowed queen, who is, of course, his own mother. Ta da! Prophecy fulfilled, and all because the mortals who were told of it tried to prevent it. I think there is more to this "prophecy fulfillment" theme to come in the HP books. Wanda From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 3 00:09:12 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:09:12 -0000 Subject: old notes, frog cards & misc. connections? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74956 I'm hundreds of posts behind, so I hope I'm not repeating someone has already answered this: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tcyhunt" wrote: << Davey and Gladys Gudgeon. Gladys was mentioned in CoS as a fan of Gilderoy Lockhart and Davey was introduced in PoA as having gone to school with MWPP (he was almost 'blinded by the Whomping Willow'). >> I've always assumed that Gladys is Davey's mother, kind of elderly by the time that Davey's classmates are in their 30s. Before GoF came out, one of the rumors was that the new DADA teacher would be "Davey Gudgeon and his magical eye". I believe that that rumor was true ("nearly lost an eye" to the Whomping Willow meaning, DID lost an eye, but got a replacement) but JKR changed the character's name to Alastor "Mad-Eye" Moody to spite the rumormongers. By the way, I'm accustomed to "gudgeon" as an old-time (Shakespearian?), word for 'fool' or gullible person, which probably fits Gladys, but would not be a good trait for an Auror like Moody. The American Heritage? Dictionary of the English Language (http://www.bartleby.com/61/96/G0299600.html ) says: "A small Eurasian freshwater fish (Gobio gobio) related to the carp and used for bait. b.Any of various similar or related fishes. 2.Slang. One who is easily duped." and that it is related to "goby". I have vague recollections of someone saying that a gudgeon is a kind of fish with a big mouth that will swallow anything, thus analoguous to a gullible person who will "swallow" any tale. H'mm. I suddenly think of Luna... << Natalie McDonald >> I'll quote The Lexicon http://www.hp-lexicon.org/wizards-l-n.html instead of using my own words: "Natalie's name comes from a Canadian girl who was very sick. She loved the Harry Potter books and contacted JKR. The author wrote her and told her her some of the secrets of the books to come, but Natalie had died by the time the letter arrived. Natalie's mother responded and she and JKR have since become friends. Jo put Natalie in GF, sorted into Gryffindor, as a tribute. (story originally appeared in the Toronto Globe and Mail)" From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 00:11:42 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 20:11:42 EDT Subject: Movie contamination in OotP by JKR :) Message-ID: <18.338b1b5e.2c5dad3e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74957 This struck me as funny because I've seen how many times we all get momentarily confused as to what is canon -vs- the variations in the movies and it looks like in OotP, JKR herself took a visual from the movie CoS. In CoS (the book), when Fawkes bursts into flame, there is "nothing but a smouldering pile of ash on the floor", but in OotP, when DD returns from the MoM with baby Fawkes he places him "gently on the tray of soft ashes beneath the golden post where the full-grown Fawkes usually stood," which is the visual of Fawkes' perch in the movie. Quite minor, of course, but I found it amusing all the same that even JKR can get a little case of movie contamination... ;) ~RSFJenny From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 00:22:02 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:22:02 -0000 Subject: Muggle-born adults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oh have faith" wrote: > Arthur Weasley, you might think, has muggle ancestory because of his very muggle name, but his delighted ignorance about all things muggle suggests he can't actually have had one for a parent, and Molly we know from OOP is a cousin of the Blacks, and so also pureblood. > Arthur is definately pureblood. The Weasleys have been referred to as an old pureblood family (COS). > I can't think of a single adult character, besides the two half- bloods, who have any name or habits or mannerisms that suggest they might be muggle born. > I think that might be partially because of who we've met. The adult we've met have almost all been either teacher (whose ancestory we know nothing about) or Ministry employees. Molly said at the end of Gof that Fudge favored those who had pride in wizarding blood. That means MoM employees of any rank are likely to be purebloods. > This made me wonder if there might not be a reason for this. Were huge numbers of muggle-borns killed or frightened back into hiding in the muggle world by Voldemort, leaving the wizard world with a shortage? Is prejudice so entrenched in wizarding society that it's hard to get a job without a Name? Do muggle-borns just tend to drift back into muggle society and find jobs there? Do they tend to take new names and forge new habits to blend in? > I don't doubt that lots of muggle-borns and half-bloods were killed when Voldemort was powerful, but I think there are many still alive and part of wizarding society. Ron said that most wizards were half- blood. (Of course, you're considered half-blood if you had one muggle great-great-grandparent, as far as I can tell). That implies there are quite a few of them. Faith's Girl From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 00:25:03 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:25:03 -0000 Subject: Muggle-born adults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > I don't doubt that lots of muggle-borns and half-bloods were killed > when Voldemort was powerful, but I think there are many still alive > and part of wizarding society. Ron said that most wizards were half- > blood. (Of course, you're considered half-blood if you had one > muggle great-great-grandparent, as far as I can tell). That implies > there are quite a few of them. > > Faith's Girl Oops. That was me, bibphile, not Faith's Girl bibphile From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 00:31:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:31:52 -0000 Subject: Portraits - living and dead In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "traci_barbour" wrote: > ...edited.. > What determines the qualifications of who gets a portrait made? bboy_mn: These are what I would call 'historical portraits', therefore anyone who makes history or who the wizarding world deems to be worth of this honor will probably get a portrait. Other portraits may have been personal family portraits, that were eventually moved to a place of honor, or put on public display. > Traci: > If communication between the living and those deceased in the > portraits are easy, then one would assume every portrait produced is > capable of communication right? bboy_mn: If I recall correctly, rumor has it that the living portraits we see are special enchanted portraits that require a piece of the living person be added to the portrait. Example; to finish the portrait and complete the 'living' enchantment, some hair from that living person is embedded in the paint. It is, we could logically assume, easier for wizards to paint 'still' portraits or portrait that are animated like photographs, but can't speak or reflect the personality of the wizard/witch in the portrait. I believe I've heard this in discussions in this group, but I can't say if it is speculation on someone's part or if it is a documented fact. Either way, it does sound reasonable. >Traci: > ... Sirius ..., ...his portrait isn't under consideration but what > if in future books it is? What if his portrait is painted? Would > he then be able to communicate to Harry? > bboy_mn: If Sirius, at some time in his life, had a 'living' portrait made, then Harry could access that protrait, but I don't think it would reflect Sirius in his entirety. That is, it would not reflect his life long accumulated personality. If it was painted at 15, then it would reflect Sirius at 15. To some extent, a portrait can expand it's knowledge and experience, and therefore it's personality, but I think the scope of that is limited. Also, we have no body, so we have not tissue to add to the portrait, and even if we did have a body, the speculation is that the 'living' portrait requires the addition of tissue from a living person. > Traci: >We know that these "enchanted" portraits are not only confined to > Hogwarts as Sirius' mother's portrait at the Black house is able to > react to outside disturbances whenever the sheet covering is > removed. I am curious to hear other's thoughts on this. bboy_mn: Not a 100% sure what you are getting at here. This is something that is not limited to Hogwarts, enchanted living portraits do exist in locations other than Hogwarts like the hospital, the Ministry of Magic and in private homes. As far as movement of the character in the portrait is seems the can only travel with in the confinds of the building they are in, or to other portraits of themselves at different locations. General thought on portraits- I've alway thought that the portrait were not the full and complete personality of the person pictured, they are more like actors playing a role. However, they are exceptional actors with exceptional insight into the character they are playing. We see many stage and screen actors playing the parts of historic figures and capturing their essence and character very well. The living portraits have the added advantage of having a piece of the living person to draw on; some true living essence of the person does exist in the portrait. But I don't think a portrait could ever be quite as good as the real person. Portraits are actors in two senses; they are playing the role of the person in the portrait and the are playing the role OF a portrait. When the Fat Lady runs from Sirius after he slashed her portrait, it isn't because she feared for her life, because she isn't alive. She didn't fear for great bodily harm, because she has no body; she is just animated paint. Although, it does indicate that she was damaged, so she could certainly have some fear of damage. However, I think more than anything she was feeling a sense of shame. She could no longer fulfill her role as 'portrait', she could no longer contribute the aesthetic beauty and essence she was created for. When she was restored and returned to duty as guard of the Gryffindor entrance, the sense of fear she display most convincingly was just her playing her actors role as the Fat Lady. I guess the point is that we have to weigh the reactions of living portraits against two measures; one, the role of the character they are playing, two, the role of a work of art. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From Veritas771 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 00:32:08 2003 From: Veritas771 at hotmail.com (michaelkgidlow) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:32:08 -0000 Subject: Questions on Nagini Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74961 I've never seen anything on this, but does anyone have any theories on Nagini? In Hinduism, the Nagas (from which Rowling got the name) are celestial snakes that are often gods or divine beings. This would help to explain why Voldemort drinks her milk to stay alive. But my question is, what is she exactly? Is she an animagi? Like so many characters from GOF, she disappears in OoP, unless she is the snake that attacked Author Weasley. Any ideas about her? Michael Gidlow From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 00:35:58 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:35:58 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: > > >Of course I've thought that. But, as I think my post indicated, > >*I* don't see the waters as being muddied. Fleur thanks and kisses > >Harry, then turns and does the same to Ron. THEN we hear that > >Hermione looks furious. > > GEO: Probably because Harry's attention was still on the kiss and the > story is told from his limited pov so he wouldn't have noticed > Hermione being furious when Fleur was kissing him since he would be > distracted. It was only after the kiss that he noticed that Hermione > was furious while at the same time Fleur was kissing Ron. Maritza: I hate to repeat what CM wrote, but- 'Fleur swooped down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face burn and wouldn't have been surprised if steam was coming out of his ears again), then said to Ron, "And you to- you 'elped" Yeah," said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, "yeah a bit-" Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious...' I'm sorry but no one is going to convince me Hermione's anger is directed at Harry's kisses from Fleur, and NOT Ron's. If it were the former, it would have been written directly following it. I know JKR likes to play games with us readers, but if she wanted to hint at a H/H SHIP in that scene, she would have written it the way I mentioned. And apparently Harry wasn't distracted too much to notice the detailed look on Ron's face. And here's another example including Fleur that doesn't even include Harry- ' "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur as she reached him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish." "It's very good already," said Ron in a strangled sort of voice. Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled.' I'm sure your reasoning for this scene will be another put-down at Ron's sake, because that's the basic technique you often use to *try* proving your ship points. I'm sorry I don't have examples to back this statement up, I don't feel like searching for them at the moment. But I assure you I'm not pulling this out of my arse. > In regards to Ron and Hermione, their friendship is nothing compared > to the one shared by Harry and Hermione. Those two finish each others > sentences, know what the other is thinking and when they argue they > actually argue at relevant and valid issues and are quick to > reconcile in contrast to the Ron and Hermione friendship which is > marked by petty bickering and a lack of communication and knowledge > of the other. Now that's a stretch. Ron and Hermione may have their moments, but I believe they have a profound understanding of each other, and their relationship lacks anything but communication of any sort. Side note- two of my friends have been dating for the last two years, and their relationship is full of "petty bickering"; does that make them any less destined to be together? You seem to be placing Harry and Hermione together up on this marble pedastool, while proving your obvious dislike for Ron. I mean, if I remember correctly, Ron was the one chosen as the thing/person Harry would miss most during the second task, not Hermione. And no, it wasn't because Hermione was unavailable being Krum's damsel in distress. If we're just talking friendship, the way I see it is, IMHO there are two kinds of bonds in this trio- the Harry/Ron bond, and the Harry/Hermione/Ron bond. But neither is more important than the other, and I doubt even JKR herself would disagree. It's one thing to desperately want a ship, it's quite another to be constantly ramming it down other people's throats and not willing to listen to the other side. If Harry *ever* had any romantic interest in Hermione, we would have known already, because it would have been *written in the books* since we do share his thoughts and POVs. That's not to say it may not happen in the future (and God I hope not!), but as of OotP, it's just hopeful thinking for some readers. Since we don't know for a fact whom Ron, Hermione or anyone else (besides Harry) for that matter hold dear to their hearts, all we can do is make assumptions by reading into things. And sometimes, some of us read into those lines too much. Maritza- who apologises if she came off a bit strong and/or offended anyone, but was getting fed up with some SHIP posts and had to comment! :) From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 00:42:56 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:42:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions on Nagini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803004256.15398.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74963 michaelkgidlow wrote: Michael Gidlow said: I've never seen anything on this, but does anyone have any theories on Nagini? In Hinduism, the Nagas (from which Rowling got the name) are celestial snakes that are often gods or divine beings. This would help to explain why Voldemort drinks her milk to stay alive. But my question is, what is she exactly? Is she an animagi? Like so many characters from GOF, she disappears in OoP, unless she is the snake that attacked Arthur Weasley. Any ideas about her? ---------------- Did you read somewhere that JKR got the Nagini thing from Hinduism? I thought she might have been influenced by Rudyard Kipling's Rikki Tikki Tavi story, where the family mongoose kills a family of cobras . . . "just under him whizzed by the head of Nagaina, Nag's wicked wife." Still the Hindu influence, certainly. Beyond the name, I don't think Nagini is anything other than a big snake that's obedient to Voldy. owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 00:57:02 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:57:02 -0000 Subject: ADMIN In-Reply-To: <005301c35922$5a25c250$535fc487@personal> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pinguthegreek" wrote: > > Just to make it absolutely clear : > > If a subject header has ADMIN, in capital letters like that, it means that it's something we expect list members to take notice of. > > Michelle **************** Sorry, but it is not "absolutelly clear" yet. As you wrote "list memberS" , was this message sent to everybody OR was it only for me? I have to know because I received as e-mail, and I have no idea what it was about. I have chosen not to receive e-mail, so it came to my inbox anyway. I want to know what it is about if it is personal, as I do not recall ever talking nor reading about "Ginny and the giant squid". Nineve. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 00:57:13 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:57:13 -0000 Subject: The Stoicism Tango (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74965 The Stoicism Tango (OOP, Chap. 13) To the tune of The Masochism Tango by Tom Lehrer Inspired in part by a presentation at Nimbus 2003, "Harry Potter and Stoic Virtue" by Edmund M. Kean Dedicated to Marina F. THE SCENE: The DADA office, replete with animated kitty-cat posters. HARRY arrives for another in an interminable series of "Detentions with DELORES." This evening the office is set up as a dance floor, and DELORES, with a rose in her hair, challenges HARRY to that most confrontational of dance forms, the tango. HARRY: When confronting some person who'd hurt you I rely on one primary virtue I don't lack will I don't fear your black quill, As we dance to the Stoicism Tango. To no one will I ever make mention Of Dolores' horrid detention Pleasant it ain't But no word of complaint As we dance to the Stoicism Tango. UMBRIDGE: You tell such lies To help you realize, I'm one of the good guys HARRY: Yeech! UMBRIDGE: .Compliance I demand So still your rage I will unlock your cage Once we're on the same page: Your penalty's at hand! You will learn penmanship and calligraphy Through my exacting choreography HARRY My hand is on fire Not one drop I'll perspire Which is what she desires as we tango. UMBRIDGE: All Hogwarts knows How you're spending the whole week With a Ministry control freak Who has you in her grip HARRY: So in class I suppose It would be far more Stoic If somewhat unheroic If I kept my mouth zipped UMBRIDGE: Twixt' Potter and I it's a standoff HARRY: Like Wormtail I will cut my hand off Before I give sign That this writing of lines Can weaken my spine as we two Tango. UMBRIDGE: See how we mesh, My words carved in your flesh, I feel so refreshed, You know you cannot win. HARRY: This ranks quite low Compared to Crucio That I felt when You-Know- -Who set out to do me in (UMBRIDGE glares at HARRY for daring to mention his imaginary encounters) Yikes! - 'Scuse me! UMBRIDGE: Return here tomorrow precisely At the same time to do further slicing. Write with your blood, "I shall learn to be good" BOTH As we dance to the Maso... ....Oops, we mean Stoicism Tango! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with 63 new filks) From ratalman at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 00:59:53 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:59:53 -0000 Subject: ADMIN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74966 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pinguthegreek" > wrote: > > > Just to make it absolutely clear : > > > > If a subject header has ADMIN, in capital letters like that, it > means that it's something we expect list members to take notice of. > > > > Michelle > **************** > Sorry, but it is not "absolutelly clear" yet. As you wrote "list > memberS" , was this message sent to everybody OR was it only for me? > I have to know because I received as e-mail, and I have no idea what > it was about. I have chosen not to receive e-mail, so it came to my > inbox anyway. I want to know what it is about if it is personal, as I > do not recall ever talking nor reading about "Ginny and the giant > squid". > Nineve. I'm thinking that everyone on the board received this notice, as I also do not receive emails (except "Special Notices"), and this email came to me too. Robyn From s_ings at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 01:06:16 2003 From: s_ings at yahoo.com (Sheryll Townsend) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 21:06:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: ADMIN In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803010616.16580.qmail@web41103.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74967 --- nineve_laguna wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "Pinguthegreek" > wrote: > > > Just to make it absolutely clear : > > > > If a subject header has ADMIN, in capital > letters like that, it > means that it's something we expect list members to > take notice of. > > > > Michelle > **************** > Sorry, but it is not "absolutelly clear" yet. As you > wrote "list > memberS" , was this message sent to everybody OR was > it only for me? > I have to know because I received as e-mail, and I > have no idea what > it was about. I have chosen not to receive e-mail, > so it came to my > inbox anyway. I want to know what it is about if it > is personal, as I > do not recall ever talking nor reading about "Ginny > and the giant > squid". > Nineve. > To make things clear, if something is sent to the list with the prefix ADMIN it is intended for the entire list. It is not intended to single out specific list members. ADMIN messages are sometimes sent as "Special Notices" to ensure that even those who do not subscribe to Daily Digest or to Individual Emails will receive our messages. Does that help clear things up? Sheryll aka Rylly Elf ===== "No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously." - Dave Barry ______________________________________________________________________ Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 01:39:31 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 01:39:31 -0000 Subject: Core Meltdown for Snape & New Teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > Does Snape know that Harry has been giving private tutorials in DADA? > If not, I wonder how he will react when his finds out. The knowledge > that Harry has taken it upon himself to teach something that he > himself has dreamed of, and been prevented from teachig, might be > enough to send Snape straight to St. Mungo's. Anyone else think Snape > is going to flip his greasy wig!? > > Allyson bboy_mn: Well, you certainly have a point. To Snape, it would seem like the ultimate extension of Potter arrogance. But how about this for an alternative scenario, a situation that might bring Snape's 'cauldron' from a boil back down to a simmer. The new school year begins and despite having a competent DADA teacher for a change (more on that later), the fellow DA Club members are still keen to keep the club going. They convince Harry to go to McGonagall (and by extension Dumbledore) and asks to reform the club as an official school sanctioned club. Of course, given world curcumstances, McGonagall (and by extension Dumbledore) gives permission. There is just one catch; all after hours school clubs must be open to all houses, and must have a faculty advisor. So who better to be the Defense Art Club faculty advisor than the new Defense Against Dark Art teacher, none other than Professor Severus Snape. How's that for a plot twist? This also allows Harry, who is sure to NOT get an 'Outstanding' in his Potions OWLs, a chance to continue potions under a new instructor; Perhaps Prof. Sprout or a whole new character. I say Professor Sprout because Potions is really just 'Applied Herbology', which also makes me think that Neville would be up to 'Exceeds Expectation' in Potions if Snape wasn't his teacher. Why would Harry take Snape as an Club advisor and why would Harry allow Slytherins? The other DA members (reads: Hermione) would convince Harry that he was still in charge of the club. Snape's only purpose would be to act as an advisor, of course, and to monitor the club meeting to make sure they didn't get out of hand. Harry would still be the one teaching the DA members. So, Harry with much pestering from Hermione is convinced. How and why would he ever allow Slytherins? Well, once again the DA members (once again reads: Hermione) would convince him that he, Harry, would be in charge, and if any Slytherins misbehaved, he would have the authority to kick them out. Naturally, the Slytherins would be warned that if they used any excessive force, or cheated during a duel they would be out of there. Several Slytherins would come including Draco and his pals, but other Slytherins too. Naturally Draco and Harry would be at each others throats and that would eventually lead to Draco being kicked out. But, and this is a very big BUT, a few 'good' Slytherins would remain, and play nice. What's the point? You might ask. This provides an opportunity for Snape and Harry's relationship to soften. Harry sees that Snape really is excellent at teaching DADA, and although Snape is his usual irritating obnoxious self, he pretty much lets Harry run the club. Result: a softening of their relationship and a quiet begrudging respect. This provides an opportunity to see that there are good Slytherins, either to the extent that they are not all truly evil, or obnoxious jerks like Draco, or it could potentially provide the opportunity for a TRULY GOOD SLYTHERIN to appear. Someone who would actively work in support of the good guys. Can you say, Blaise Zambini? I think the theme of uniting the Houses will be played out in the future books. More and more, I am of the suspicion that James, Siruis, Lupin, and Wormtail were Gryffindor, Slytherin, Ravenclaw, and Hufflepuff. I'm not completely convinced yet, there still seems to be some holes in that theory. But I could very easily see us being setup to discover that Sirius was a Slytherin. That unexpected knowledge would certainly give Harry an excuse to re-evaluate his attitude toward Slytherins. If the 'uniting the houses' theme is going to play out, then SOMETHING is going to have to happen to get Harry to rethink his attitude. Allowing Slytherins into the DA Club and having at least a couple of them be able to function suscessfully and without conflict, would be about as close as the school could come to uniting the Houses. If a Slytherin happened to join in the end of book battle against the DE's and/or Voldemort, that would be even better. At last a truly good Slytherin. The continuation of the DA Club under these circumstances allows several themes to play out; Snape/Harry respect, Draco/Harry conflict, the good Slytherin, and inter-house unity. Plus, some really fun dueling scenes. That's a story and I'm stuck with it. bboy_mn From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 02:14:15 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:14:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: > > > > >Of course I've thought that. But, as I think my post indicated, > > >*I* don't see the waters as being muddied. Fleur thanks and > kisses > > >Harry, then turns and does the same to Ron. THEN we hear that > > >Hermione looks furious. > > > > GEO: Probably because Harry's attention was still on the kiss and > the > > story is told from his limited pov so he wouldn't have noticed > > Hermione being furious when Fleur was kissing him since he would > be > > distracted. It was only after the kiss that he noticed that > Hermione > > was furious while at the same time Fleur was kissing Ron. > Maritza: I hate to repeat what CM wrote, but- 'Fleur swooped down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his face burn and wouldn't have been surprised if steam was coming out of his ears again), then said to Ron, "And you to- you 'elped" Yeah," said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, "yeah a bit-" Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply furious...' I'm sorry but no one is going to convince me Hermione's anger is directed at Harry's kisses from Fleur, and NOT Ron's. If it were the former, it would have been written directly following it. I know JKR likes to play games with us readers, but if she wanted to hint at a H/H SHIP in that scene, she would have written it the way I mentioned. And apparently Harry wasn't distracted too much to notice the detailed look on Ron's face. And here's another example including Fleur that doesn't even include Harry- ' "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur as she reached him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to improve my Eenglish." "It's very good already," said Ron in a strangled sort of voice. Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled.' I'm sure your reasoning for this scene will be another put-down at Ron's sake, because that's the basic technique you often use to *try* proving your ship points. I'm sorry I don't have examples to back this statement up, I don't feel like searching for them at the moment. But I assure you I'm not pulling this out of my arse. GEO said- >In regards to Ron and Hermione, their friendship is nothing >compared >to the one shared by Harry and Hermione. Those two finish each >others >sentences, know what the other is thinking and when they argue >they >actually argue at relevant and valid issues and are quick to >reconcile in contrast to the Ron and Hermione friendship which is >marked by petty bickering and a lack of communication and >knowledge >of the other. Now that's a stretch. Ron and Hermione may have their moments, but I believe they have a profound understanding of each other, and their relationship lacks anything but communication of any sort. Side note- two of my friends have been dating for the last two years, and their relationship is full of "petty bickering"; does that make them any less destined to be together? You seem to be placing Harry and Hermione together up on this marble pedastool, while proving your obvious dislike for Ron. I mean, if I remember correctly, Ron was the one chosen as the thing/person Harry would miss most during the second task, not Hermione. And no, it wasn't because Hermione was unavailable being Krum's damsel in distress. If we're just talking friendship, the way I see it is, IMHO there are two kinds of bonds in this trio- the Harry/Ron bond, and the Harry/Hermione/Ron bond. But neither is more important than the other, and I doubt even JKR herself would disagree. It's one thing to desperately want a ship, it's quite another to be constantly ramming it down other people's throats and not willing to listen to the other side. If Harry *ever* had any romantic interest in Hermione, we would have known already, because it would have been *written in the books* since we do share his thoughts and POVs. That's not to say it may not happen in the future (and God I hope not!), but as of OotP, it's just hopeful thinking for some readers. Since we don't know for a fact whom Ron, Hermione or anyone else (besides Harry) for that matter hold dear to their hearts, all we can do is make assumptions by reading into things. And sometimes, some of us read into those lines too much. Maritza- who apologises if she came off a bit strong and/or offended anyone, but felt it's time she speaks her oppinions on these matters :) From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 3 02:14:44 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:14:44 -0000 Subject: under their robes / treating House Elves like vermin / Harry's priorities Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74970 Snape's mate wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74605 : << I still say if you are going flying on a broom, you need something under those robes or it would get mighty breezey! Also, you would have very little "mystery" left about you... LOL! I noticed the Quidditch teams had the good sense to wear trousers with their uniforms! >> The trousers, jumpers, knee pads, etc of the Quidditch uniforms were invented by the movie. In Quidditch Through the Ages, there is a crude drawing from JKR's own hand (she can draw better than that!) of a Quidditch Keeper doing the Stick and Starfish manuver. The player is wearing ONLY A ROBE. The robe in the drawing appears to be slit at the sides, but to me that doesn't make sense: they should be slit in the front and back, to make way for the broomstick. I get concerned about playing Quidditch in robes (regardless of what's under the robes or where they're slit) for fear that the robe would fly over the player's face during a dive or such manuver, and temporarily blind him/her. I have been supposing that the robes stay down because a Charm has been cast on them, but I just now got the idea that the Quidditch robes have a hole rather than a slit for the broomstick, so the broomstick itself is holding the robes down ... that wouldn't apply to people who are flying around in their ordinary robes ... Allyson wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74615 : << On the other hand, maybe wizard have their own underwear styles?! >> Old Archie liked a healthy breeze around his privates, so his underwear style was either nothing, or robes under robes under robes, for warmth. I fantasize that that style was in effect long enough to include Dumbledore, McGonagall, Arthur and Molly. And I fantasize that the style for Our Heroes and as old as Tonks is Muggle-style undies. Before the Pensieve scene's implication that Severus (and presumably his age-mates) wore Muggle-style drawers, I had fantasized that MWPP's generation wore a different style of underwear, with knee-length drawers tied at each knee, and chemises instead of t-shirts (woven fabric instead of knitted, and gathered at the neckline like "peasant blouse") (except I keep imagining the girls in camisoles). I had an elaborate fantasy that this unique style was started by a smash hit wizarding play in which a superstar witch actress appeared wearing such garments (the script called for an intruder in her bedroom while she was dressing, and the costume designer invented something for her to wear in a state of undress so the play wouldn't have a scandalous nude scene). Steve bboy_mn wrote: << Remember what Dobby said, that in the heyday of Voldemort's first reign, house-elves were treated like vermin. Have you really stopped and tried to understand the full impact of that statement. Let me give you a hint. When we were young we used to go out to the city dump, and shoot rats for the fun of it. In that vein, I can see wizards elf hunting or for target practice while they learn spells or torturing them just for the sport of it. That's what it means to be treated like vermin. >> I've had a problem with that statement from Dobby for years. It seems to me that wizards who aren't sadists and/or don't have extra House Elves compared to the amount of work that needs doing wouldn't torture and kill their House Elves just because it was 'legal' 'or 'socially accepted' or 'fashionable' -- LV was never so DEEP IN POWER that he passed a law making it COMPULSORY to torture and kill House Elves ... And it seems to me that people like Malfoys, who like to abuse their House Elves, wouldn't stop just because LV was OUT OF POWER: even with LV OUT OF POWER, no one did anything to stop the abuse. Of course, the question here is whether the Ministry would have done something if the abuser had been an ordinary wizard (to the extent that an ORDINARY WIZARD could have a House Elf) rather than a Malfoy.... Jen AccioSirius (great name!) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74867 : << In Chapter 2, pg.35 (U.S.), I believe it's Vernon who says, "--a peck, I mean, pack of owls shooting in and out of my house and I won't have it, boy, I won't--". OK, why would he switch from saying the right phrase for a group of owls to the wrong phrase? >> Is a "peck" the right word for a group of owls? I looked up 'peck' on One-Look Dictionary and didn't found any mention of a group word for owls (and don't have a personal copy of An Exultation of Larks to look up "owl" in), only a unit of dry measure and a colloquial word for a large quantity of (e.g. a peck of trouble), and the verb "to peck". The verb seems relevant, as Hedwig (example owl) pecks Harry affectionately when she's pleased with him, and pecked Ron and Hermione quite hard when Harry directed her to MAKE THEM WRITE better letters. Lee dee dolly wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74920 : << (I love Harry by the way, but Hermione is right about him needing to put his studies first.) >> Should he put his studies before defeating Lord Voldemort? I agree that he doesn't much care for school and procrastinates with no excuse, but his DA club and his Occulumancy lessons are valid parts of the struggle against LV, and Quidditch may be a better preparation for his future career than schoolwork is. I know that not all the Muggle boys who are sports stars in high school get into the big leagues, but Oliver Wood did, and canon strongly hints that Harry is a better player (different position) than Oliver. From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sun Aug 3 02:22:57 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:22:57 -0000 Subject: Questions on Nagini In-Reply-To: <20030803004256.15398.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > Did you read somewhere that JKR got the Nagini thing from Hinduism? I thought she might have been influenced by Rudyard Kipling's Rikki Tikki Tavi story, where the family mongoose kills a family of cobras . . . "just under him whizzed by the head of Nagaina, Nag's wicked wife." Still the Hindu influence, certainly. Beyond the name, I don't think Nagini is anything other than a big snake that's obedient to Voldy. > > owlery2003 > India (where Rikki Tikki Tavi takes place),Hinduism and its effects are quite inseparable. Snakes in Hinduism have magical power so I am sure she wanted that referenced. Read Basham's "The Wonder That Was India" for the full story. Jennifer From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sun Aug 3 02:23:06 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:23:06 -0000 Subject: Questions on Nagini In-Reply-To: <20030803004256.15398.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > Did you read somewhere that JKR got the Nagini thing from Hinduism? I thought she might have been influenced by Rudyard Kipling's Rikki Tikki Tavi story, where the family mongoose kills a family of cobras . . . "just under him whizzed by the head of Nagaina, Nag's wicked wife." Still the Hindu influence, certainly. Beyond the name, I don't think Nagini is anything other than a big snake that's obedient to Voldy. > > owlery2003 > India (where Rikki Tikki Tavi takes place),Hinduism and its effects are quite inseparable. Snakes in Hinduism have magical power so I am sure she wanted that referenced. Read Basham's "The Wonder That Was India" for the full story. Jennifer From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:28:13 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:28:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" > wrote: > > > > > > >Of course I've thought that. But, as I think my post indicated, > > > >*I* don't see the waters as being muddied. Fleur thanks and > > kisses > > > >Harry, then turns and does the same to Ron. THEN we hear that > > > >Hermione looks furious. > > > > > > GEO: Probably because Harry's attention was still on the kiss > and > > the > > > story is told from his limited pov so he wouldn't have noticed > > > Hermione being furious when Fleur was kissing him since he would > > be > > > distracted. It was only after the kiss that he noticed that > > Hermione > > > was furious while at the same time Fleur was kissing Ron. > > > Maritza: > I hate to repeat what CM wrote, but- > > 'Fleur swooped down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his > face burn and wouldn't have been surprised if steam was coming out > of his ears again), then said to Ron, "And you to- you 'elped" > > Yeah," said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, "yeah a bit-" > Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply > furious...' > > I'm sorry but no one is going to convince me Hermione's anger is > directed at Harry's kisses from Fleur, and NOT Ron's. If it were the > former, it would have been written directly following it. I know JKR > likes to play games with us readers, but if she wanted to hint at a > H/H SHIP in that scene, she would have written it the way I > mentioned. And apparently Harry wasn't distracted too much to notice > the detailed look on Ron's face. > > And here's another example including Fleur that doesn't even include > Harry- > > ' "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur as she reached > him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to > improve my Eenglish." > > "It's very good already," said Ron in a strangled sort of voice. > Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled.' > > > I'm sure your reasoning for this scene will be another put-down at > Ron's sake, because that's the basic technique you often use to > *try* proving your ship points. I'm sorry I don't have examples to > back this statement up, I don't feel like searching for them at the > moment. But I assure you I'm not pulling this out of my arse. > > GEO said- > >In regards to Ron and Hermione, their friendship is nothing > >compared > >to the one shared by Harry and Hermione. Those two finish each > >others > >sentences, know what the other is thinking and when they argue > >they > >actually argue at relevant and valid issues and are quick to > >reconcile in contrast to the Ron and Hermione friendship which is > >marked by petty bickering and a lack of communication and > >knowledge > >of the other. > > > Now that's a stretch. Ron and Hermione may have their moments, but I > believe they have a profound understanding of each other, and their > relationship lacks anything but communication of any sort. Side note- > two of my friends have been dating for the last two years, and their > relationship is full of "petty bickering"; does that make them any > less destined to be together? > > You seem to be placing Harry and Hermione together up on this marble > pedastool, while proving your obvious dislike for Ron. I mean, if I > remember correctly, Ron was the one chosen as the thing/person Harry > would miss most during the second task, not Hermione. And no, it > wasn't because Hermione was unavailable being Krum's damsel in > distress. If we're just talking friendship, the way I see it is, > IMHO there are two kinds of bonds in this trio- the Harry/Ron bond, > and the Harry/Hermione/Ron bond. But neither is more important than > the other, and I doubt even JKR herself would disagree. > > It's one thing to desperately want a ship, it's quite another to be > constantly ramming it down other people's throats and not willing to > listen to the other side. If Harry *ever* had any romantic interest > in Hermione, we would have known already, because it would have been > *written in the books* since we do share his thoughts and POVs. > That's not to say it may not happen in the future (and God I hope > not!), but as of OotP, it's just hopeful thinking for some readers. > Since we don't know for a fact whom Ron, Hermione or anyone else > (besides Harry) for that matter hold dear to their hearts, all we > can do is make assumptions by reading into things. And sometimes, > some of us read into those lines too much. > > Maritza- who apologises if she came off a bit strong and/or offended > anyone, but felt it's time she speaks her oppinions on these > matters :) My reply: I am not taking sides here, but, Hermoine seemed upset throughout GoF everytime Ron was near a "Vella" (not that I think at this moment thats spelled right). But from Harry's POV, Hermoine was upset every time ROn was around Fleur, and not to add more to this post already, but she didn't seem quite as upset about it after Viktor and She started talking. So there you have it. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:29:41 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:29:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" > wrote: > > > > > > >Of course I've thought that. But, as I think my post indicated, > > > >*I* don't see the waters as being muddied. Fleur thanks and > > kisses > > > >Harry, then turns and does the same to Ron. THEN we hear that > > > >Hermione looks furious. > > > > > > GEO: Probably because Harry's attention was still on the kiss > and > > the > > > story is told from his limited pov so he wouldn't have noticed > > > Hermione being furious when Fleur was kissing him since he would > > be > > > distracted. It was only after the kiss that he noticed that > > Hermione > > > was furious while at the same time Fleur was kissing Ron. > > > Maritza: > I hate to repeat what CM wrote, but- > > 'Fleur swooped down, kissed Harry twice on each cheek (he felt his > face burn and wouldn't have been surprised if steam was coming out > of his ears again), then said to Ron, "And you to- you 'elped" > > Yeah," said Ron, looking extremely hopeful, "yeah a bit-" > Fleur swooped down on him too and kissed him. Hermione looked simply > furious...' > > I'm sorry but no one is going to convince me Hermione's anger is > directed at Harry's kisses from Fleur, and NOT Ron's. If it were the > former, it would have been written directly following it. I know JKR > likes to play games with us readers, but if she wanted to hint at a > H/H SHIP in that scene, she would have written it the way I > mentioned. And apparently Harry wasn't distracted too much to notice > the detailed look on Ron's face. > > And here's another example including Fleur that doesn't even include > Harry- > > ' "We will see each uzzer again, I 'ope," said Fleur as she reached > him, holding out her hand. "I am 'oping to get a job 'ere, to > improve my Eenglish." > > "It's very good already," said Ron in a strangled sort of voice. > Fleur smiled at him; Hermione scowled.' > > > I'm sure your reasoning for this scene will be another put-down at > Ron's sake, because that's the basic technique you often use to > *try* proving your ship points. I'm sorry I don't have examples to > back this statement up, I don't feel like searching for them at the > moment. But I assure you I'm not pulling this out of my arse. > > GEO said- > >In regards to Ron and Hermione, their friendship is nothing > >compared > >to the one shared by Harry and Hermione. Those two finish each > >others > >sentences, know what the other is thinking and when they argue > >they > >actually argue at relevant and valid issues and are quick to > >reconcile in contrast to the Ron and Hermione friendship which is > >marked by petty bickering and a lack of communication and > >knowledge > >of the other. > > > Now that's a stretch. Ron and Hermione may have their moments, but I > believe they have a profound understanding of each other, and their > relationship lacks anything but communication of any sort. Side note- > two of my friends have been dating for the last two years, and their > relationship is full of "petty bickering"; does that make them any > less destined to be together? > > You seem to be placing Harry and Hermione together up on this marble > pedastool, while proving your obvious dislike for Ron. I mean, if I > remember correctly, Ron was the one chosen as the thing/person Harry > would miss most during the second task, not Hermione. And no, it > wasn't because Hermione was unavailable being Krum's damsel in > distress. If we're just talking friendship, the way I see it is, > IMHO there are two kinds of bonds in this trio- the Harry/Ron bond, > and the Harry/Hermione/Ron bond. But neither is more important than > the other, and I doubt even JKR herself would disagree. > > It's one thing to desperately want a ship, it's quite another to be > constantly ramming it down other people's throats and not willing to > listen to the other side. If Harry *ever* had any romantic interest > in Hermione, we would have known already, because it would have been > *written in the books* since we do share his thoughts and POVs. > That's not to say it may not happen in the future (and God I hope > not!), but as of OotP, it's just hopeful thinking for some readers. > Since we don't know for a fact whom Ron, Hermione or anyone else > (besides Harry) for that matter hold dear to their hearts, all we > can do is make assumptions by reading into things. And sometimes, > some of us read into those lines too much. > > Maritza- who apologises if she came off a bit strong and/or offended > anyone, but felt it's time she speaks her oppinions on these > matters :) My reply: I am not taking sides here, but, Hermoine seemed upset throughout GoF everytime Ron was near a "Vella" (not that I think at this moment thats spelled right). But from Harry's POV, Hermoine was upset every time ROn was around Fleur, and not to add more to this post already, but she didn't seem quite as upset about it after Viktor and She started talking. So there you have it. Lori From snapesmate at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 02:30:14 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:30:14 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74975 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "snapesmate" > wrote: > All we know for sure is that Snape has what we assume was a father, > who was described as yelling at a woman we also assume was his > mother, probably because a young boy cowering in the corner, we > assume is Snape. It never actually states they are HE and HIS > parents. For all we know it could have been HIM, his wife and their child.... uh oh... new conspiracy/spy theory... what if it WAS him and he was angry because his wife and son were in danger or > something... > >Lynne >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > That doesn't make sense. If the man were Snape, I'm pretty sure > Harry would have reconized him. > > Since it's Snape memory, he has to be there so he has to be the boy > (unless he's the woman :p). > > However, you're right that we have no proof these were his parents. I think they were though. > > bibphile I figured they were his parents as well, LOL! I just cannot pass up a conspiracy theory... I don't think it said Harry saw the man from the front. If he didn't see the man's face, depending on how many years ago this was, Snape may have sounded a bit different as well, since voices change as we age, evn throughout adulthood. It is odd and sad to think of Snape as a little dark haired boy cowering in a corner... Lynne, reminding herself this is only fiction... LOL! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:30:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:30:34 -0000 Subject: Portraits - Additional: Actors Playing a Role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > ...edited... > >> Portraits are actors in two senses; they are playing the role of the person in the portrait and the are playing the role OF a portrait. << > > ...edited.. > > bboy_mn bboy_mn: I want to add some additional thoughts about how and why I concluded that protraits are actors playing a role. Actually, I base this on enchanted photographs which are not as sophisticated, refined, or as subtle as portraits and therefore their action are a little easier to read. You will notice that photographs in newspaper and magazine articles while they to to a small extent reflect the person in the photo, they more often reflect the content of the article. If Harry is pictured and portrayed as unstable, then the photo of him looks very shifty and menacing. In the articles that portray him in a good light, the photo takes on the demeanor of the rosy cheeked, smiling faced all-American boy, or in this case, the quintessentially clean cut, bring him home to mama, All-British boy. Now encanted portraits which are much more sophisticated, and stand alone without the context of an article to influence them, so they retain more of the natural personality of the real person. But I also suspect that since they are actors portraying a role, they do to some extent reflect the world's perceived belief in who they are. So a wizard who was perceived to be evil, would reflect an essence of evil in his portrait. Although, I think that would be more hinted at, his real personality would dominate. Just some additional thoughts. bboy_mn From pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:33:20 2003 From: pretty_feet51 at yahoo.com (Risti) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:33:20 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Moving Into the Safe House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74977 Sneaky the House Elf was going about her usual daily dusting of the spare rooms when she was startled by the presence of a woman in one of them. "Yes...I do believe this will do," said the woman, appraising the room. With that, she started unpacking a rather large suitcase. "Miss..." Sneaky began politely, unsure of what to say. "Oh, sorry Sneaky, didn't see you there," the woman said, placing a colorful collection of socks into one of the drawers, "This room isn't taken by anyone, is it? I would hate to be in someone's room, but I do love the view of the bay from the window in here. I've got to keep my eye on it, you understand." "Yes Miss," Sneaky said, not understanding at all, "I mean no Miss, this room isn't taken, it is one of the spare rooms, but please Miss, you are you?" Sneaky knew her Masters wouldn't be keen on just anyone taking up residence in the Safe House. "Sorry Sneaky, I don't suppose you would remember me," she put down the orange duvet cover she had been spreading over the bed. "My name is Risti, I developped a theory awhile back called SUNLIGHT ULTRA." Sneaky only nodded. She had a feeling that had something to do with the MAGIC DISHWASHER that her Master's liked to play with, but she didn't understand the details of that. "So now you are moving in?" She asked. While she didn't understand theories and funny kitchen appliances, she understood more people to clean up after. "Yes, I am," Risti sounded as if she had just made up her mind. "I could have before you know, but in all honesty, for all the fuss I made over it, I wasn't sure if I really believed SUNLIGHT ULTRA. I mean it was possible, but plausible? I wasn't sure. Then I read OotP." "Ewt-puh?" Sneaky muttered, even more confused, but Risti didn't seem to hear her. "There was just so much canon to support MD, as I'm sure you must have overheard around here. Dumbledore was such a scheming man, and Lupin!" Risti beamed, "It was so obvious that he was used to this. Look at the way he interacted with Snape. No fist-fights there, no, they'd gotten used to working together already. Surely, as an old member of the Order, he had never really stopped working for Dumbledore whenever Dumbledore needed help, and Dumbledore...Oh man, I'm hoping that maybe by moving in here, I'll finally hear the discussions of just how this new canon ties in with all the Spymaster!Dumbledore theories." As Risti had been talking, she'd been slowly adding the personal touches that would make the room her own. The orange comforter, the big sqishy bean bag chair, and the bookshelves lined with all her favorite books. Now however, she stopped and looked back at Winky. "I seem to remember that this house has tea. Would you be able to get me a pot, and some milk and sugar?" "Of course Risti! Tea right away!" Sneaky said as she rushed out, glad to finally understand something. ~Risti From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:36:27 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:36:27 -0000 Subject: Questions on Nagini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo > wrote: > > > > > Did you read somewhere that JKR got the Nagini thing from Hinduism? > I thought she might have been influenced by Rudyard Kipling's Rikki > Tikki Tavi story, where the family mongoose kills a family of > cobras . . . "just under him whizzed by the head of Nagaina, Nag's > wicked wife." Still the Hindu influence, certainly. Beyond the name, > I don't think Nagini is anything other than a big snake that's > obedient to Voldy. > > > > owlery2003 > > > India (where Rikki Tikki Tavi takes place),Hinduism and its effects > are quite inseparable. Snakes in Hinduism have magical power so I am > sure she wanted that referenced. Read Basham's "The Wonder That Was > India" for the full story. > Jennifer my reply: according to canon, she word played this one, Naga is Sanskrit for "snake". not sure of Sanskrit is Hindu but thought I would add it. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:36:37 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:36:37 -0000 Subject: Questions on Nagini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74979 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo > wrote: > > > > > Did you read somewhere that JKR got the Nagini thing from Hinduism? > I thought she might have been influenced by Rudyard Kipling's Rikki > Tikki Tavi story, where the family mongoose kills a family of > cobras . . . "just under him whizzed by the head of Nagaina, Nag's > wicked wife." Still the Hindu influence, certainly. Beyond the name, > I don't think Nagini is anything other than a big snake that's > obedient to Voldy. > > > > owlery2003 > > > India (where Rikki Tikki Tavi takes place),Hinduism and its effects > are quite inseparable. Snakes in Hinduism have magical power so I am > sure she wanted that referenced. Read Basham's "The Wonder That Was > India" for the full story. > Jennifer my reply: according to canon, she word played this one, Naga is Sanskrit for "snake". not sure of Sanskrit is Hindu but thought I would add it. Lori From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:41:24 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803024124.95505.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74980 --- snapesmate wrote: > I figured they were his parents as well, LOL! I > just cannot pass up > a conspiracy theory... I don't think it said Harry > saw the man from > the front. If he didn't see the man's face, > depending on how many > years ago this was, Snape may have sounded a bit > different as well, > since voices change as we age, evn throughout > adulthood. It is odd > and sad to think of Snape as a little dark haired > boy cowering in a > corner... > Lynne, reminding herself this is only fiction... > LOL! Well, the book reads "- 'and suddenly Harry's mind was teeming with memories that were not his: a hook-nosed man was shouting at a cowering woman, while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner . ." so Harry at least saw a profile. ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 02:47:54 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:47:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Re: Harry, Hermione & Ron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > My reply: I am not taking sides here, but, Hermoine seemed upset > throughout GoF everytime Ron was near a "Vella" (not that I think at > this moment thats spelled right). But from Harry's POV, Hermoine was > upset every time ROn was around Fleur, and not to add more to this > post already, but she didn't seem quite as upset about it after > Viktor and She started talking. So there you have it. Lori The second example from my previous post came from the last chapter of GoF, p724 American version, right before she says goobye to Viktor. I think Hermione's feelings regarding Fleur ran pretty equal throughout the book, before and after Krum. -Maritza From snapesmate at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 02:48:02 2003 From: snapesmate at hotmail.com (snapesmate) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:48:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's memories (was the Under the Robe thing) In-Reply-To: <4f.3269b12d.2c5ca4d1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74982 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/1/03 5:07:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > snapesmate at h... writes: > > It never actually states they are HE and HIS > > parents. For all we know it could have been HIM, his wife and their > > child.... > Ack! I've been fighting this in the Theory Bay for a while now. *puts on > her SILK SHIRTS Captain's hat* > > OoP US Hardback Page 592: > > Snape staggered; his wand flew upward, away from Harry - and suddenly Harry's > mind was teeming with memories that were not his - *a hook-nosed man* was > shouting at a cowering woman while a small dark-haired boy cried in a corner .... > A greasy-haired teenager sat along in a dark bedroom, pointing his wand at > the ceiling, shooting down flies .... A girl was laughing as a scrawny boy tried > to mount a bucking broomstick - (Emphasis my own) (END QUOTE) > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > --Who doesn't think that it's fair when people who obviously have certain feelings about certain characters deny them. I need to keep my books next to my computer, so I can keep things straight... too many HPs and not enough memory (in MY head! LOL). I should think Harry would recognize even a Snape profile as well. Also, I even got who was cowering and who was crying reversed! Thank goodness THAT theory got cut off quickly!! Lynne From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 03:10:14 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 03:10:14 -0000 Subject: Theory of the Love, Death, Voldemort (shortened) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > (snip) starting with Professor Binns (PB), lets > consider a few facts first in OoP, (snip) Also it was Hermoine that asked PB about the Chamber in > CoS. PB has been going on and on about "facts", Goblin rebellions, giant wars, how things came to pass, etc.... (snip) Hogwarts is a school of witches and wizards, (bear with me, I have a good point). Now other then Hermoine's class of Arithmancy, there are no regular classes, no math class, no english, no literture, that sort of regular class. They have "magic" (snip) you have the idea anyway. so why teach history of magic? I know its a good idea to teach it to make sure that everyone has a good idea of magic, where it came from, etc...etc... and if i am correct in this assumption, PB, being a ghost, teaching, history of magic, then we have overlooked something here. Dumbledore says LV MARKED Harry as an equal, Harry's mother marked him with protection, his Aunt furthers this protection by allowing Harry to stay there. (snip) that was a spell DD used to protect Harry, knowing that as long as he's there for just a month every year, (snip) Voldemort took blood from Harry to be "reborn". Giving LV the same protection, even though this one I don't think works because LV doesn't live in at the Dursley's for a month every year, nor do I think he can call it home. (snip) So it would not protect him in this manner, nor do I think that LV knows about this protection anyway. (snip) Sirius was (sob) harry's godfather. Harry loved Sirius so much that when he thought of death he thought well I will be with Sirius. Sirius loved Harry so much he died for him (basicly). LV fled Harry's body when harry thought this (snip) Everyone says that love is more powerful then death? (snip) LV says there is nothing worse then death?!. DD tells Harry that LV picked the "half-blood" not the "pure-blood". (snip) James was pure-blood? Lupin would be a pure-blood given the fact that he longed to go to Hogwarts (snip) The four boys (james, sirius, Lupin, and Peter) and Lily form a bond at school that is rather brotherly (snip) Peter betrayed them all, he broke that bond > between them. harry and ron have been friends since the train. Neville is included of course because well, he is like a brother to Harry when it comes right down to it. (snip) Hermoine and the boys have built an amazing > friendship (snip) The Weasleys basicly adopted Harry and Hermoine as one of their own. So what I am leading up to, this. What if History of Magic is not just teaching them about what has happened but teaching them the bonds that matter. What do I mean, simple Goblins work together they are united, giants don't work together, as Hagrid put it, they are not use to living in groups. Centaurs take no side be it muggle or wizard. House-elves are "part" of a family even though they are bound to that family by slavery, some of them do love the families that they serve, winky for example. Dumbledore stated that they are strong as they are united, weak as they are divided. Meaning that they must unite like a family, protect one another as if they were your brother/sister. (snip) Throughout 5 books, two more to come (and I hope quickly) they have fought Voldemort together, Harry's mother and father died saving Harry, Dumbledore loves Harry like a son, Sirius was Harry's Godfather, Lupin Loved(S) James, Sirius, And harry like they are brothers, Harry's Aunt by taking him in is protecting him. Voldemort took blood from Harray and everyone thinks Voldemort is scared of Death, that love will kill him. it's that bond of family that will kill him. Voldemort never had a family, his mother died after having him, he murdered his father, He does not consider his Death Eaters Family. Upon his rebirth, Voldemort tells Harry his "true" family returns. He considers them servants. Harry and Voldemort are connected by more than that scar, Voldemort marked Harry as an equal, he is reborn using Harry's blood. Their wands share feathers from the same Phoenix. Anyone in the book that likes Harry considers him family, Voldemort's Death Eaters do not consider Voldemort family, they consider him "Master". Like they are House-elves waiting for direction from him. (snip) The sorting hat said that the founders lived together in Harmony, like a family. The sorting Hat has a problem dividing them up into different "houses". it does not want them to think of only their other students (snip) but to think of others as family as well.(snip) Now that Voldemort has used the blood from Harry, he is a "blood-brother" to Harry and will not be able to survive with any part of a caring family person running through his veins. And one final thought since I know that this has been long, but it's just a thought, if Dumbledore is correct and Peter is indebted to Harry for saving his life against Sirius, since Voldemort used Peter's hand to be "reborn" would he not be indebted to Harry as well. I am sure that this is old magic, Dumbledore said that it was, and Peter tried to warn Voldemort before he did this, but Voldemort does not listen to servants. His downfall will be the family that is united at Harry's side and not to his. Oh and since you read this far, someone posted that the last line of Book 7 was someone asking Harry "Harry what happened to your scar?". Now if indeed this is fact not "fiction" then if Harry defeats Voldemort by using the "family bond" then the mark that Voldemort put on Harry would disappear without the connection to Voldemort through Harry's survival. Any ideas, anyone? From Veritas771 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 03:23:40 2003 From: Veritas771 at hotmail.com (Kurt Douglass) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 03:23:40 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Questions on Nagini Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74984 >From: Scott Santangelo >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Questions on Nagini >Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:42:56 -0700 (PDT) > > > >michaelkgidlow wrote: >Michael Gidlow said: > >I've never seen anything on this, but does anyone have any theories on >Nagini? In Hinduism, the Nagas (from which Rowling got the name) are >celestial snakes that are often gods or divine beings. This would help to >explain why Voldemort drinks her milk to stay alive. But my >question is, what is she exactly? Is she an animagi? Like so many >characters from GOF, she disappears in OoP, unless she is the snake that >attacked Arthur Weasley. Any ideas about her? > >---------------- > >Did you read somewhere that JKR got the Nagini thing from Hinduism? I >thought she might have been influenced by Rudyard Kipling's Rikki Tikki >Tavi story, where the family mongoose kills a family of cobras . . . "just >under him whizzed by the head of Nagaina, Nag's wicked wife." Still the >Hindu influence, certainly. Beyond the name, I don't think Nagini is >anything other than a big snake that's obedient to Voldy. > >owlery2003 >From Michael: I didn't read that JKR got "Nagini" from Hinduism, but I saw it in a lexicon of Harry Potter names (availible at www.mugglenet.com). > > > >--------------------------------- >Do you Yahoo!? >Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from >posts to which you're replying! > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 03:28:27 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 03:28:27 -0000 Subject: treating House Elves like vermin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Steve bboy_mn wrote: > > << Remember what Dobby said, that in the heyday of Voldemort's first > reign, house-elves were treated like vermin. ... In that vein, I can > see wizards elf hunting or for target practice while they learn > spells or torturing them just for the sport of it. That's what it > means to be treated like vermin. >> > CatLady: > > I've had a problem with that statement from Dobby for years. It > seems to me that wizards who aren't sadists and/or don't have extra > House Elves compared to the amount of work that needs doing wouldn't > torture and kill their House Elves just because it was 'legal' 'or > 'socially accepted' or 'fashionable' -- LV was never so DEEP IN > POWER that he passed a law making it COMPULSORY to torture and kill > House Elves ... bboy_mn: I seriously doubt that many people read Dobby's reference to being treated as vermin, as a compulsory requirement. This isn't an issue of law or fashion, it's a matter of power. Voldemort, speaking through Quirrel, said it himself- "There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those to weak to seek it." ...more importantly, those too weak to wield it. Voldemort rules his followers by the application of power. You know you have an evil dictator when he tortures his enemy, but sweet mother of Merlin, what have you got when a dictator tortures is friend, allies, and followers? Voldemort, that's what you have, the very essence of evil and moral corruption. Everything related to Voldemort is about power; who has power over who and what. Just like in real life where the abused become the abusers, the Death Eater's go home after a long hard day of being torture by Voldemort for the slightest mistake, and they are eager to apply their twisted mindset of power. So they torture their house-elves, both to remind themselves that they have power, to purge there feeling over being tortured by Voldemort, and to remind the elves that they have power over them. It's the classic illusion of appearing to lift yourself up by pushing others down. The Death Eaters are playing out Voldemort's role in their own little mini-dictatorship. That's the same reason they torture muggles, first so they can have somebody to blame for all the problems they themselves have created, and to convince themselves that they are powerful by torturing someone who appears to be more helpless than they are. That's the same reason the playground bully picks on the geeks and the nerds, because they are the people against whom they can exert power with the least fear of retaliation. Notice that bullies never bully other bullies, that's far too risky. So Death Eaters are simply playing out their sadistic misguided philosophy that power is everything. To have, exert, and weild power ruthlessly is the very essence of proving to the world that you are right and they are wrong. I've brought this theory up before, and one of the common responses has been, why would you destroy your own property? Why would you torture or kill a house-elf thereby diminishing or destroying something that belongs to you. That sort of like running over a $10,000 Rolex watch with you car, just for the fun of it. Here in lies the rub. House-elves are free; that is, they don't cost anything. You never value something you get for free as much as something you obtain using you own time and talent. That's why most lottery winners are bankrupt within a few short years. The money means so much less when it's free. I don't think there is a shortage of house-elves, they are there and they are ready, willing, and eager to work. So getting a replacement is not such a big deal. I will acknowledge that there must be some limitation to the availability of house-elves. They seem to prefer to serve a large, well respected (read: rich) families. To some extent I think it is a matter of self-worth (pure speculation). If you are a house-elf that serves a poor family, then you must be a poor house-elf. So, while free and available, I wouldn't go so far as to say house-elves are plentiful. Sorry, I really didn't plan on rambling on that long. bboy_mn From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 03:52:20 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 03:52:20 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron/Hermione - What's the attraction? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Charlie Moody wrote: > JKR has put nothing of the sort on paper as between Ron & Hermione. > Their verbal exchanges, their opinions regarding each other, their > attitudes about life & themselves, & their general dissimilarities, as > presented on the page by JKR, are entirely inconsistent with the > fundamental premise of Ron and Hermione as a likely match. Since when are relationships based on finding the person who is most like you. I think no one can argue that Harry, Ron, and Hermione are great friends with very different and distinct personalities - however they still manage to quite enjoy each others company. Yes, Ron thinks Hermione is a 'know it all' and Hermione thinks Ron should take things more seriously, but more than that they see each other as trustworthy, loyal, and supportive. > I didn't come into this with the notion that Harry & Hermione ought to > end up together; I just read the books; and when I first encountered > the R/H hypothesis, I was puzzled, because I could recall nothing in > the books to support it. The more I've looked looked into it, and the > more I've read the arguments for and against R/H, the more convinced > I've become that it simply has no basis in the canon. The interactions between Ron and Hermione in books 4 and 5 are quite different from their early bickering in the first 3 books - Hormones have now come into play. I am not suggesting that either Ron or Hermione have been harboring a secret crush for the other (though i won't overrule that either) - I just believe that the change in the tone of Ron and Hermione's arguments go beyond their normal criticism of each other and do suggest a loaded interest in who they think the other is interested in. Why else would JkR bother writing so many of these interactions between R&Hrm? > In the interests of fairness, here's the firmest argument I've heard, > pro > R/H: Ron makes Hermione laugh, and Harry doesn't. I haven't > checked this out for myself, so I can't vouch for it, but I acknowledge > that a shared sense of humour is an important thing in a relationship. > Even so, this point (if true) would be more an obstacle to H/H, not a > boost to R/H, given their near-total incompatibility. If Ron and Herm were so incompatible why would they spend so much time together (with and without Harry). They are together for almost the entire school year, and even correspond and often times meet up during vacation. These two obviously enjoy each others company (bickering and all), and support and i would hardly define that as near-total incompatibility. Maybe the attraction is as simple as Hermione thinks that Ron is cute and vice versa - there are loads of reasons why one person finds another person attractive and it's not always logical. I don't think 'why' is so important when you're 15. > The R/H SHIP, in SHIPping terms, is little more than a walnut-shell > half, holding a toothpick, anchored in wax, to which has been taped > a tiny, tiny flag - adrift on the wide, wide sea. Only its lack of > substance > allows it to remain afloat. as... uh... um... lovely as that last statement was isn't that the whole basis of a hypothesis. Untill JkR writes the words - "...and Ron and Hermione lock in a passion filled embrace", or "I wouldn't date Ron if he were the last man alive", Hermione replied in a huff - we are left with only our speculations. > I stand, as always, ready to listen to any argument that derives from > JKR's text and does not fly in the face of observable human behaviour. > -- > Charlie > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I think all of the arguments presented (generally speaking) can be seen as valid but not law. Some are content taking what was written and coming up with various theories and others want JkR to slam the gavel down. the later will probably become very frustrated with this board (from what Ive see in my short time as a member). I, being the former, just see it as fun. Also - I want to add that Harry's POV has a lot to do with our view of R&Hrm's relationship. Not only because we only see what he sees, but more specifically we only pick up on what he picks up on. We see Ron and Hermione as he sees them, and maybe his cluelessness in the relationship department has to do with why not many budding relationships are spelled out for us. Perhaps we fill in the blanks with our own biases, but I didn't read the book thinking the three would be anything but platonic - the book seemed to lead me in the R&Hrm direction. I think Harry sees how R&Hrm react toward each other (the blushing, the jealous remarks, the criticism on who the other may be interested in), but his lack of interest or concern keeps him from dwelling on it. I think nothing short of a kiss/love letter will peak his interest and give us the definitive answer were looking for. Or maybe he need Ginny to spill the beans. Whoever Hermione might like, Ginny would probably be the 1st to know. Just another theory. Or rather, the same ole theory restated. -QoE From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Aug 3 04:12:17 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 00:12:17 EDT Subject: Voices and Magic Message-ID: <12d.2e9e25d6.2c5de5a1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74988 Can people who cannot speak (is "mute" an okay term to use? I'm not sure and I don't like to offend people (unless it's a Snape thread and then I can't help myself!)) still do magic? I know that the Silenced Death Eater can (OoP US Hardback Page 792): "*Silencio*!" cried Hermione, and the man's voice was extinguished. (END QUOTE) But was that only because he had had a voice to begin with? We're told in PS/SS: (SS US "Adult" Paperback Page 212) "Now, don't forget that nice wrist movement we've been practicing!" squeaked Professor Flitwick, perched on top of his pile of books as usual. "Swish and flick, remember, swish and flick. *And saying the magic words properly is very important, too* - never forget the Wizard Bararuffio, who said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest." (Emphasis my own. END QUOTE.) Now, I suppose this could be taken to mean that amatuer wizards need to say the words to get the spell to work, while advanced ones could just think it. But if this is the case, then how do those who are not able to speak learn in the first place? Can they be magic? Well, that sound stupid...of course they can be magic I suppose. I guess my real question is: Do you need to be able to speak to *practice* magic? ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Who apologizes profusely for the word definition post, she meant to only send that to one person but is an idiot and didn't change the e-mail. I'm so sorry! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Tasukibeth1 at cs.com Sun Aug 3 05:28:48 2003 From: Tasukibeth1 at cs.com (Tasukibeth1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 01:28:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the Fat Lady - Name Message-ID: <70.30c38d59.2c5df790@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74989 bboy_mn says: Well, undoubtedly the Fat Lady could sing, but I don't recall it happening. As long as we are on the subject, does anyone find it odd that the Fat Lady has never been identified? Every other portrait and statue in the school seems to be know by and refered to by name, but in five books with the Fat Lady having a speaking role in every one of them, she has yet to be identified, even thought much more obscure, even extremely obscure statues and prortraits have been indentified. Beth says: I always assumed that either... (a) She DOES HAVE a name, but was not officially given a name by the painter (What is Whistler's mother's name? What is the lady of Shalott's name? etc.) (b) She may have been painted, but was never based on anyone in particular - just a painting from the imagination of the artist, but with no actual life to speak of, and therefore, no name or, in my personal opinion, (c) She has a name, but the children never bothered to find out, because they just don't care. As far as the children are concerned, she is the painting that blocks the doorway, and she happens to be on gravitationally challenged. So that's what they call her. I'm sure the Bloody Baron, the one-eyed witch, and the grey lady all have names, but no one ever cared enough to find out what they were. Beth in Sacramento [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ktd7 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 05:48:17 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 05:48:17 -0000 Subject: Why Ron WON'T betray Harry In-Reply-To: <20030726065842.7907.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > Ron cares for Harry very > much. I think he considers him a best mate and > possibly a brother. I also think that Ron wishes that > Ginny would be chose Harry (why on Earth would he want > his sister who he is so protective of be with Harry if > he was to merely betray Harry). Perhaps, we haven't > seen it..but I don't think that Ron will betray Harry. With the possible exception of Percy Weasley, I think that Harry is all but a member of that family, and they all will be his supporters and rooters during his next two years. They have had the opportunity to know Harry as a kid, not just a legend, they have seen him at his best and his worst. Ron especially understands Harry better than almost anyone else. He understands how miserable Harry is with the Dursleys, and he knows how embarrassed Harry by his fame. Except for the bout of jealousy that hit Ron in GoF, he knows that Harry hasn't asked for any of the things that have happened to him. With Ron's success in Quidditch, he is no longer only a "side kick". I truly believe that Ron would like nothing more than to have Harry someday marry Ginny and become a real member of the family. I think that for Harry, the ultimate happy ending would be to become part of a large, loving family. Karen From ktd7 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 06:28:04 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 06:28:04 -0000 Subject: Hoping against disappointment in Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "losangelis" wrote: > Just a thought, but if anyone watched Buffy the Vampire Slayer (hate > to make comparisions), I was disappointed with how the final season > played out. About halfway through the season, they started > foretelling this big huge "final battle" that we all knew would be > played out in the series finale, but it almost seemed from that point > on, no episode "did too much"...advancing plot lines and deepening > characters was put on hold...just had to hold off until the last > episode. To me, then, the last episode was a disappointment after > all the waiting for it. > ..... snip ....... > OoP didn't do a lot to reassure me that the last three books aren't > just > going to work towards the conclusion, being careful not to stir the > pot too much until then. > > With all the tense waiting for Book 5, it is certain waiting for Book > 6 will be equally intense. Just hoping we don't get let down with > Book 6 becoming backstory for Book 7, and establishes its own > identity, start to finish. > > Wiley o' Ravencaw Remember that the divisions in this story are not based on "episodes" marking an artificial and variable amount of time as in "Buffy" and "Star Wars". The story divisions for Harry are *school years.* What I mean is, whatever speed the story unfolds, a year passes between the start of one and the start of the next. In terms of plot development, there must be times of ordinary time passing. Sometimes there is less "action" and more interaction of the characters themselves. Sometimes we get more background information and sometimes there is more action and progress in one direction or another. Still, it is difficult to say that there is no progress being made at all if there is not a large amount of action. Harry Potter is as much a mystery as it is an adventure story. The more slowly (and cleverly) things are revealed, the more we relish the ultimate denouement. I originally thought that Chamber of Secrets advanced the story line less than the other books. Now that I've reread it and all the rest of the series, I see that there was a lot more revealed and advanced than I originally thought. I personally feel that the sixth book will be quite pivotal. I think that it could do a lot more to further our knowledge AND anticipation of the final chapter of the seventh book. The only thing that will disappoint me will be finally reaching the end of that last chapter and knowing there won't be any more. Karen From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 06:38:36 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 06:38:36 -0000 Subject: Possession by Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74992 We have had many examples of possessions by Voldemort, but the final one in OoP has me thinking more about this. To review what we know, Voldemort spent much or all of the time he was hiding in Albania possessing small animals. In GoF he explains that none of them lasted long, it shortened their lives. I also have no doubt that it was quite painful for the animals. Even Wormatail heard the rumors of it from the other rats when he was searching for Voldemort after his escape. In PS/SS, Quirrell explained that Voldemort felt the need to possess *him* after the failed attempt to steal the Stone from Gringotts. Quirrell puts it this way: "When I failed to steal the stone from Gringotts, he was most displeased. He punished me...decided he would have to keep a closer watch on me...." Now, I'm not entirely sure if Quirrell's case is a true possession or not. Voldemort is *inhabiting* Quirrell, and can punish him by causing him pain (or, more pain than usual), but he never seems to act *through* him; rather, he just gives him orders. The arrangement *does* seem as though it would have been fatal to Quirrell fairly early on, as it was for the Albanian animals, neccessitating the drinking of Unicorn blood to keep the host body alive (until Voldemort deserts it in the end). In CoS, the situation is entirely different, however, it is still caused by the real Tom Riddle who at the age of sixteen enchanted a diary to be able to possess someone. The eventual victim is Ginny, of course, but her possession is nothing like what happens when the real Voldemort possesses. Ginny does not feel pain, and her life is not shortened *until* Diary!Riddle decides the time is right to steal it. Diary!Riddle does act through Ginny (in contrast to what Voldemort does to Quirrell), and Ginny loses chunks of time whenever this is happening. All this is interesting in light of what Ginny says to Harry in OoP: that she knows what it feels like to be possessed by Voldemort. Her assertion bothers me, because it seems clear that she *doesn't* know, really, given what we know about Quirrell's possession (and Harry's, eventually). Finally we come to Voldemort's possession of Harry at the end of OoP. I was surprised when it happened, because at this point Voldemort has a body *of his own*! How did he do it, then? When he apparated out of the column of water from the fountain, did he drop his body off inside a handy broom closet and enter Harry's, travelling like an astral projection? Or was he all, body and soul, hiding somewhere, and only their minds joined via the scar link (most likely, I guess)? Surely, he didn't possess Harry with his body as well as his mind (ugh)? In any case, this possession reminds me most of the small animal possessions of his Albanian days: he acted (spoke) through Harry, he caused him great pain, and I have no doubt that the possession would have killed Harry had Voldemort been able to keep it going. The idea of possession by Voldemort seems to quite important. It seems to be like all three of the Unforgivable Curses rolled into one, and so much worse than all of them. I wonder if Voldemort will ever confront Harry by possessing someone else? (Now I am thinking of the divination homework in GoF where Harry ended by predicting his own death by decapitation, and later Ron's parrot fake wand cut the head off Harry's haddock fake wand, but the possibilities are endless...) Annemehr wishing she could post a full-blown theory instead of endless questions... From Tasukibeth1 at cs.com Sun Aug 3 06:48:19 2003 From: Tasukibeth1 at cs.com (Tasukibeth1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 02:48:19 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) Message-ID: <135.235ce3e5.2c5e0a33@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74993 > KathyK says: > > > How does Dumbledore know the Philosopher's Stone is in danger? > > Now here is where I really need help: Was the Philosopher's Stone at > Gringott's to begin with? Did Flamel move it there after an attempt > was made on it? > If the Stone was already at Gringott's, why was it there? Clearly > Gringott's is quite safe (see discussion above), but wouldn't Flamel > need the stone to make the Elixir of Life every so often? Plus, if > Flamel had so many means of guarding everything to do with the stone, > wouldn't it be safest with him? > > So now, what if the stone was not removed to Gringott's until after a > particularly clever attempt is made to get at Flamel? Why would it > go there rather than directly to Dumbledore? Did they initially > believe that the Stone would be perfectly safe in Gringott's as they > had no reason to believe otherwise? Were they tipped off that > someone may try to rob the vault? > > > At first I entertained the notion that maybe no one knew that someone > was after the PS until after the attempted robbery at Gringott's, > that maybe Dumbledore's moving the stone was coincidence, something > he and Flamel had been planning. Then I rolled my eyes at myself (a > difficult thing to do without a mirror in front of me) because that's > just ludicrous. There's no way that Dumbledore set up all those > defenses at Hogwarts for the stone without some reason. Plus, moving > the stone right before someone tries to steal it is WAY too big a > coincidence to swallow, even for gullible me. > I just threw that last bit in there to show you all that my mind is > going every which way with this topic. > Beth replies: The fact that the stone was removed from Gringotts mere hours before Quirrel tried to take it was at first, IMO, the biggest, fattest, most gaping plothole in the entire HP universe. I mean, If Lord Thingy is dead and there is no logical reason to believe that he is not, why all of the sudden efforts to protect the stone? Has Thingy tried to get the stone in the past, which would set a precedent? And why was there a break-in merely hours after the stone was removed? If that is supposed to be a mere coincidence, I'll eat my book. It just didn't make sense to me. But after seeking answers - I hung out on the lexicon a lot, and seemed to find what I was looking for - here's what apparently happened (I haven't seen any canon to support this, but at this point, I will take the answer that makes most sense to me and call it a day): Flamel has plenty of elixir to last him a while. Maybe he put some of it in the freezer, or preserved it in a pickle jar or something. It really doesn't matter. After taking an appropriate dosage, he put the stone in Gringotts so people wouldn't break into his house trying to steal it. The stone has been sitting in Gringotts, unbothered, for an unspecified time. Five, ten, twenty years, who knows. One day, someone breaks into Flamels house looking for the stone. Flamel probably has no idea who tried to take it or why, but something about this robbery seems a little more...desperate and determIned, so Flamel sends a heads-up to DD, who agrees to protect the stone in a safer place. In everyone's mind, Hogwarts is completely safe (*cough*Sirius*cough*), since strangers are not allowed in, and you can't apperate onto the grounds. So DD takes the stone and puts it in the castle, having no clue that the thief is one of his own teachers. So that's why the stone happened to be withdrawn the day of the break-in. DD was tipped off and told Hagrid to get it before the thief made a go for it. I don't think Voldy ever even crossed anyone's minds at this point in the story. Beth in Sacramento (now if someone could just tell me a satisfactory answer as to why the OoP spent all that time guarding the prophecy when they could have easily just blown up the stupid thing and called it a day j/k) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Tasukibeth1 at cs.com Sun Aug 3 07:01:30 2003 From: Tasukibeth1 at cs.com (Tasukibeth1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 03:01:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Voices and Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74994 In a message dated 8/2/2003 9:12:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, SnapesSlytherin at aol.com writes: > Now, I suppose this could be taken to mean that amatuer wizards need to say > the words to get the spell to work, while advanced ones could just think it. > > But if this is the case, then how do those who are not able to speak learn > in > the first place? Can they be magic? Well, that sound stupid...of course > they > can be magic I suppose. I guess my real question is: Do you need to be able > to speak to *practice* magic? I am guessing that many spells require the use of words (It's LeviOOOOsa!), but there are also spells that do not. Apperating does not seem to need any vocal commands, and Harry has done many, many spells without using magic words, such as regrowing his hair as a child, causing the glass at the zoo to vanish, causing aunt Marge's wine glass to break, and blowing up Aunt Marge. As for wizards who are born mute, that's an interesting quandry - does anyone have a theory? And that also leaves me to wonder, do identical spells work in other languages? I assume that the French and Bulgarian students speak...uh...French and Bulgarian, but are wizarding commands in a language all their own? Are spells in Esperanto (j/k), or does the French version of Accio sound different than the British version of Accio? Beth, who has digressed. Sorry [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Tasukibeth1 at cs.com Sun Aug 3 07:17:00 2003 From: Tasukibeth1 at cs.com (Tasukibeth1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 03:17:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Peck of Owls Message-ID: <23.331c5f6b.2c5e10ec@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 74995 In a message dated 8/2/2003 7:32:40 AM Pacific Standard Time, jendiangelo at cox.net writes: > In Chapter 2, pg.35 (U.S.), I believe it's Vernon who says, "--a > peck, I mean, pack of owls shooting in and out of my house and I > won't have it, boy, I won't--". OK, why would he switch from saying > the right phrase for a group of owls to the wrong phrase? I don't > think that Vernon would have any ties to the WW, but does he know > more than he's letting on? Or does he simply not want to seem to > know about anything that has anything to do with Harry's world, > including what a grouping of owls is called? > Beth in Sacramento says: Actually, a group owls was called a parliament. Don't ask me how I know that. But as far as Vernon changing his words, I assumed it was just a demonstration of his ignorance - he got it right the first time, and then corrected it to something that was wrong. I don't think there was any hidden meaning, I just thought he was being a git like he always is. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Sun Aug 3 07:18:43 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:18:43 -0000 Subject: Voices and Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tasukibeth1 at c... wrote: > In a message dated 8/2/2003 9:12:42 PM Pacific Standard Time, > SnapesSlytherin at a... writes: > > > > Now, I suppose this could be taken to mean that amatuer wizards need to say > > the words to get the spell to work, while advanced ones could just think it. > > > > But if this is the case, then how do those who are not able to speak learn > > in > > the first place? Can they be magic? Well, that sound stupid...of course > > they > > can be magic I suppose. I guess my real question is: Do you need to be able > > to speak to *practice* magic? > > I am guessing that many spells require the use of words (It's LeviOOOOsa!), > but there are also spells that do not. Apperating does not seem to need any > vocal commands, and Harry has done many, many spells without using magic words, > such as regrowing his hair as a child, causing the glass at the zoo to vanish, > causing aunt Marge's wine glass to break, and blowing up Aunt Marge. As for > wizards who are born mute, that's an interesting quandry - does anyone have a > theory? > > And that also leaves me to wonder, do identical spells work in other > languages? I assume that the French and Bulgarian students speak...uh...French and > Bulgarian, but are wizarding commands in a language all their own? Are spells in > Esperanto (j/k), or does the French version of Accio sound different than the > British version of Accio? > > Beth, who has digressed. Sorry Great questions! I cannot even begin to imagine what would happen to a witch or wizard who was born mute. Something like a squib maybe? I suppose they could still do things like potions or herbology. I could be wrong, but I don't recall any instance where magical commands were needed for a potion. As for the magical commands, I suspect they are the same no matter what the spoken language of the individual wizard. They are probably codified in one language, similar to the way Latin is used in scientific nomenclature. Allyson From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 07:21:17 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:21:17 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone- Simple & Logical In-Reply-To: <135.235ce3e5.2c5e0a33@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tasukibeth1 at c... wrote: > > > KathyK says: > > > > > > How does Dumbledore know the Philosopher's Stone is in danger? > > > > > > Now here is where I really need help: Was the Philosopher's Stone > > at Gringott's to begin with? > > Did Flamel move it there after an attempt was made on it? > > If the Stone was already at Gringott's, why was it there? > > Clearly Gringott's is quite safe (see discussion above), but > > wouldn't Flamel need the stone to make the Elixir of Life every so > > often? > > > > Beth replies: > > The fact that the stone was removed from Gringotts mere hours before > Quirrel tried to take it was at first, IMO, the biggest, fattest, > most gaping plothole in the entire HP universe. I mean, If Lord > Thingy is dead and there is no logical reason to believe that he is > not, why all of the sudden efforts to protect the stone? Has Thingy > tried to get the stone in the past, which would set a precedent? And > why was there a break-in merely hours after the stone was removed? > > ...edited... > > Beth bboy_mn: First, Lord Thingy isn't the only evil greedy person in the world. There are probably millions who would love to get their hands on the Philosopher's Stone. So, Dumbledore and Flamel's belief that it was in danger could be completely independant of Voldemort; I'm sure in the course of 600 years various people have tried to get access to the stone by various means on several occassions. Let's try this scenerio- To get the stone, evil Wizard-X would have to know where it is and how it was protected, so he starts asking around. Maybe he knows a few thugs who have contemplated stealing the stone in the past. Anyway, Wizard-X can't get information in a vacuum. To ask the questions that lead to the needed information, he has to expose himself to some extent. Flamel and/or Dumbledore and/or some other acquaintance hears rumors that there is a renewed interest in the stone in the more unsavory circles of the wizard world. So, Dumbledore and Flamel form a plan. First, Flamel and/or a trusted friend remove the stone from Flamel's immediate protection, and drop it off at Gringotts where they place it in a high security vault. Note that Flamel has had 600 years of experience at keeping the stone generally safe, but when he perceives an imminent threat, he decides to take more extreme precautions. The rumors of Wizard-X's quest for the stone grow stronger, so Flamel and Dumbledore decide that they would prefer to have it under their personal control rather than trust it to an 'institution'. They conclude that Hogwarts with it's many powerful wizards on staff, and the presents of Dumbledore himself, is the best place to safeguard it. They move it to Hogwarts, and the staff begins the process of adding a long list of enchantments and protections to guard the stone. Without a doubt they had allowed for the wily workings of Wizard-X, they even had good security in the event that a powerful evil wizard in the same class (league) as Voldemort tried to get it. The one thing they hadn't counted on was three way too curious, way too smart, and way too precocious first years name Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Metaphorically speaking; sometime when you guard yourself against a lion, you inadvertently become vulnerable to a mouse. What is outline above seems a simple and logical explanation of the events leading up to the stone being moved to Hogwarts. Just a thought. bboy_mn From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 23:07:29 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:07:29 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74998 > > We have had two major prophecies from Trelawney. > > > > In Book 3, it was predicted that Wormtail would rejoin Voldemort > and > > help him return to power. In Book 5, an earlier prediction was > > revealed that implied Voldemort would be killed by Harry (real > > unlikely that after 7 books Voldemort prevails). > > > > Who are the predictions coming from? I just spent *way* too long looking at both of these prophecies in the books, and I notice, with all of the attention Rowling gives to the emphasis in which things are said, it would seem that when the prophecies are uttered, there is little word play as to the way in which the words are stated, beyond, "Harsh, horse tones"... Thus, when reading them, it would seem that the words are spokent in a monotone way.... and that if you were to type out the first prophecy adding emphasis, it might read a bit like this: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches." <-- This is just a basic statement of what will happen. Born to those who have thrice defied _him_. <-- the obvious is that "him" in this statement is LV... but what if the him was the one who would kill LV? What if being "thrice defied" is what brings the "power" out of LV's persecutor? "Born as the seventh month dies"... was the time of this possible transformation, or the actual birth month of said person. "And the Dark Lord will mark _him_ as an equal" <--- what if "him" was stated as in a different guy... as in "not that guy, THAT guy" "But _he_ will have power the Dark Lord Knows Not." <-- again, the "HIM" was mistaken as Voldemort's great equal this whole time, while guy #2 ("HE" in this statement) standing in the shadows really had the power that LV didn't even know existed. If you wrote that out in plain english, it would be somethng to the effect of, "The person who will defeat the Dark Lord will be defied three times. The Dark Lord's will mistake another as his equal, but will be defeated by someone containing a power he does not know of." "And either must die at the hand of the other" <-- This would allude to the possibility that when the mystery "him" comes into being, that Harry would not be able to survive, or vice versa. Which sets up a nice conflict... and possibly, is it that Harry has yet to become something else completely? "For niether can live while the other survives" <---Or has something yet take over Harry's body and mind in who can defeat LV... and would then have to "die" inside of Harry so that Harry can live? Or was that entire part of the prophecy simply alluding to the fact that Harry could not live if his mother survived? (And that instance may somehow occur again?) From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 07:38:34 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:38:34 -0000 Subject: Muggle-born adults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 74999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oh have faith" wrote: Faith's Girl: > This thought occurred to me in a discussion last night and I was > interested to know what others thought; > > Though there are plenty of students at Hogwarts who are muggle- born, > or half-blood, there doesn't seem to be an *adult* character who is > anything but pureblood. The only exceptions I can think of is > Nymphadora Tonks, who we learn in OOP is a half-blood with a muggle > father, and Tom Riddle, who got a mundane muggle name to go with his > muggle ancestory. > > Me: I think it is only because, as others have pointed out, that we haven't met more... "It's a disgusting thing to call someone", said Ron, wiping his sweaty brow with a shaking hand, "Dirty blood, see. Common blood. It's mad. Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles, we'd've died out." (CoS chapter "Mudbloods and Murmurs") From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 08:27:43 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 08:27:43 -0000 Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Random wrote: > > On Friday, August 1, 2003, at 09:20 AM, Doriane wrote: > > > What about Nott Jr ? Wasn't s/he sorted in Slytherin that same year > > too ? Could be another House/year, though, I don't have my books with > > me. > > His house was never confirmed in canon... I believe some fanfics have > supposed him to be a Ravenclaw, though i'm not certain of that. > > >> CANON: Harry does not know thestral guy's name. > > CANON: _we_ don't know his name. It's assumed that Harry doesn't. > > > I agree with you that this guy's name must be terribly important. > > First because Harry doesn't know it, which is higly suspicious in my > > opinion, but also because Hagrid is interrupted by Umbridge right when > > he's going to say his name. > > Yes, that's a red flag JKR doesn't want _us_ to know the name. > > Incidentally, i'm not tracking all threads, so everyone please keep the > word "wicked" in message titles if you can > > --Random832 Early in the first book, in the scene where Madame Hooch gives them flying lessons, I believe it states that there were 20 brooms, and everyone got one. Gryffindor and Slytherin first years had this class together. So I figure there are only 20 students total in these 2 classes combined. Harry would almost have to know the names of all the Slytherins in his year. If he doesn't, he should make a point of learning them, since so many of his mortal enemies are from that house. It wouldn't be that hard. Olaf, glad and big From lucchaser at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 20:15:00 2003 From: lucchaser at yahoo.com (lucchaser) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 20:15:00 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > ADVERTISEMENT > > In my opinion, another trajedy surrounding Sirius' death will be the loss of > his > wonderful lines from the series. You've got to admit, he's had some great > ones! Therefore, in his memory, I thought it would be great to list our all > time > favorites... > > Here are a few of mine: > 1. "You are truly your father's son, Harry." PoA > 2. "If you made a better rat that a human, it's not much to boast about, > Peter." > PoA > 3. (I can't remember this one exactly, and it's a long one, but... ) When > they > can't find Kreacher... "He's probably in the attic crying over my mum's old > bloomers." OoP [Again, sorry for mutiliating that line!] > > Anyone have any other favorites they'd like to add??? :) My favorites are (ootp, pg 110) "keep muttering and I will be a murderer" and I really like this one, (ootp,pg 505) it's the continuation of your number 3, "...Of course, he might have crawled into the airing cupboard and died...But I mustn't get my hopes up..." I died with laugh after that one. there's more but I can't think of any more right now. lucchaser From subrosax at earthlink.net Sun Aug 3 07:59:39 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 07:59:39 -0000 Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > Early in the first book, in the scene where Madame Hooch gives them > flying lessons, I believe it states that there were 20 brooms, and > everyone got one. Gryffindor and Slytherin first years had this class > together. So I figure there are only 20 students total in these 2 > classes combined. Harry would almost have to know the names of all > the Slytherins in his year. If he doesn't, he should make a point of > learning them, since so many of his mortal enemies are from that > house. It wouldn't be that hard. > Olaf, glad and big Yep. I just checked it out and you are absolutely correct. The book says 20 brooms. I totally agree that Harry ought to know the names of the Slytherins, at least the one's in his year. Their parents could be DE's or conversely, there might be a couple of "good" Slytherins in the mix. It couldn't hurt for Harry to be friendly with them. Good catch on that broom scene. Gives us a pretty good idea of how many students there are. I know JKR said there were about 1,000 students at Hogwarts, but that number doesn't seem to wash. Allyson From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 08:12:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 08:12:58 -0000 Subject: Voices and Magic - Eyes & More In-Reply-To: <12d.2e9e25d6.2c5de5a1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > Can people who cannot speak still do magic? > > I know that the Silenced Death Eater can (OoP US Hardback Page 792): > "*Silencio*!" cried Hermione, and the man's voice was extinguished. (END QUOTE) > > But was that only because he had had a voice to begin with? > > ...edited... > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ bboy_mn: Let's take this one step at a time. First let's work the old philosophical question, 'If a tree falls in the forest and there is no one there to hear it, does it make a sound?'. Let's apply that to magic. If a wizard is in the forest, or perhaps in the middle of a vast desert, and he speaks an incantation, will the magic work if there is no living being whether man, beast, creature, or creepy crawly thing to hear it. If there is nothing to recieve the incantation, will it work? I think it's a safe bet to say that it would. Now let's look at the nature of an incantation. What is an incantation and how does it work? I think an incantation is a harmonizing focusing vocalization, that tunes the magical mind to the magic that is being invoked by the incantation. In a way, it is very similar to a meditative mantra. To say 'Stupify', produces a set of tone and resonance that call forth that specific magic. Think of sympathetic vibrations. Let's say you take a frequency generator, tuning fork, and a loudspeaker. You begin to sweep the frequency range. When the loudspeaker hits the tuning fork frequency, the tuning fork will start to vibrate on it's own. That's an excellent analogy for how an incantation activates specific magic in a wizard. Now let's look at the nature of casting spells. We have seen wandless magic; spontaneous and intentional. Spontaneous, Harry turn his teacher's hair blue. Intentional (sort of), Harry says "Lumos" and his wand, which he is not holding, lights up. But we have also seen wandless wordless magic. I know there are several minor examples in the series, but only one comes to mind at the moment. Tom walks into the private parlor in the Leaky Cauldron, snaps his fingers, and the fire ignites. I know there are other examples where people have performed minor magic with just the wave of a hand. (But I don't remember them specifically.) Where is this all leading? Let's say a wizard surrounds himself in a Silence Barrier. This doesn't silence the wizard, it just prevents other people from hearing the wizard. If he cast an incantation inside this silence barrier will it work? I think the answer is yes. This is just a variation of the 'tree falls in the woods' analogy. Now what if the wizard thinks the words; he mentally vocalizes them. That is his same voice speaking the same words, only internally. That should create the same resonance and harmony necessary to make the spell work. The mind and the magic hear it even if the ears don't. And indeed, I think that is how wizards do wandless wordless magic. So, if the original hypothetical mute wizard is still able to hear so he knows what the vocalization of the incantation should sound like, then I see no reason why he couldn't cast the spell with sufficient practice. Keep in mind, that I think it would be a very difficult, but I certainly think it is possible. Now, let me extent the concept into a whole new area. I predict that we will see Harry and perhaps the other DA's learning wordless wandless magic. The words and the wands are just focusing device, they don't produce any magic, they just assist you in applying your magic in a specific and focused way. Harry knows he doesn't need a wand to perform magic. But he hasn't realized that if he could learn to do that on demand, he would have a very potent weapon. Imagine Voldemort blowing up like Aunt Marg just because Harry thought it. There is some speculation about the significants of Harry's green eyes. I speculate that they may become the point of focus when he learns to do wandless magic. In a sense, his eyes will become his wand. We know wordless magic can be done. Again, if you are proficient at it, that represent a tremendous weapon and a tremendous advantage over your opponent. I think at some point that has to become so obvious that it would be unreasonable not to learn it. I will amend the wandless wordless magic, by saying that for most common wizards, they are never going to be able to do powerful magic wordless and wandless. Snap your fingers, a wave of your hand to perform minor mundane routine magic will be easy. But I think Harry, at least, is a sufficiently powerful wizard that once he learns it, he will be able to cast much more powerful spells. But even then there will be some limits. Still, even with the limits, you must be able to see what powerful weapons these abilities could be. Additional Note: I think the reason we don't see more wordless and/or wandless magic is that any spell of any significant requires a tremdous amount of concetration. That pause to concentrate is way to impractical in battle, and inconvinient in everyday life. Just a thought. A long rambling thought, conjured way to late at night. bboy_mn From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Sun Aug 3 08:17:13 2003 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 08:17:13 -0000 Subject: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > There was a discussion going on a few days ago regarding Sirius's > emotional state in OoP and Dumbledore's behavior regarding that > situation. One thing that struck me in both books 4 and 5 was that > the feelings of characters who have gone through terrible ordeals are > pretty much neglected by everyone around them. Harry, after his > return from the cemetery in book 4, so desperately needs to cry about > what has happened to him. Molly makes a good attempt by hugging him, > but Hermione bursts into the room and that's the end of that. Molly > doesn't try to pursue it then or later, as far as we know. > Dumbledore is right to get Harry to talk about what happened (even if > he does have multiple reasons for obtaining the information), but he > leaves Harry to deal with the trauma on his own. Even Sirius, who > clearly cares deeply about Harry, can provide no more than a hand on > Harry's shoulder while Harry tells his story. So book 4 ends without > Harry really finding the support he needs. The pattern I see here is that people just don't express their > feelings, and I wonder if that has something to do with the British > character. My impression (and please correct me if I'm wrong about > this) is that the stiff upper lip is still valued in Britain, as > opposed to here in the States, where it's all venting all the time to > anyone who will listen. It's no surprise that Harry > and Sirius make some questionable decisions, given the emotional > instability they were experiencing. Good observation indeed! Is it a British way that emotion is very personal and should leave alone to the person him/herself? Or rather is it a reflection of JKR's inner self? Is she a very tough woman who has no patience of how psychologists' ideas of dealing with traumas? Do the death of her mom and the failure of her first marriage have a lasting impact on her and also her perspectives of life? I raise these questions because a writer, basically, write from her/his experiences. The better understanding of a writer as a person helps us understand, or even predict, his/her books. What do you think? Angel From pinkfoxranger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 00:24:11 2003 From: pinkfoxranger at yahoo.com (Eva) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:24:11 -0000 Subject: The lifecycle of a Fawkes (was : Neville's Wand) In-Reply-To: <1ca.e9ff7e3.2c5dab1f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, EnsTren at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/2/2003 12:59:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > sleepingblyx at y... askes: This is not true, and is the reason why young children pitch fits if you give two the same amount of icecream in diffrent sized bowls. Now, would a psyc major please tell us if this has to do with IQ or the physical development of the brain. >>>>>>>> I hope a student for elementry school teaching is also okay... It has nothing to do with the IQ. When a child is about 5-7 years old children learn that when the same amount of icecream in diffrent sized bowls can be the same amount. Same is for a long, small piece of speculaas or a short wide piece. If you are really interested in this I would look up some work from the developmental psychologist Piaget. And I believe a regenerated Phoenix keeps all of his knowledge. Fawkes has his burning day in Chamber of Secrets. We have no clear fragments that say that he didn't keep his knowledge, while the most points indirectly that he does. Eva From emlette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 00:28:24 2003 From: emlette at yahoo.com (emlette) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:28:24 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75006 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > I hope Harry ditches the Auror idea and decides to become a > professional Quidditch player. If anyone deserves an easier life > (besides the bludgers, of course), it's Harry. Rowling always > includes glowing descriptions of how Harry feels when he's flying, > and it is bliss for him. It could just turn into a nice hobby to > take his mind off his work as an auror, but I hope if he's still > around when the curtain falls, he will choose to give himself a break > for awhile. Ariadne I could definitely see Harry as either an Auror or a Quidditch player. (It WOULD be great to see him as a Quidditch player, because it is the one thing that gives him such happiness and freedom! But what would he do when his Quidditch days are over?) What if he taught Defense Against the Dark Arts at Hogwarts? He's got a gift for DADA and really enjoys teaching and watching his students in DA improve. Maybe that's why JKR has kept the DADA prof job open for so long... But I wonder if he would be satisfied teaching others instead of being out there fighting dark wizards himself as an Auror. Thoughts? From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 08:29:05 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 08:29:05 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75007 Forgive ne if this topic has been covered in the past, but I am puzzled about sudents getting to Hogwarts on the Hogwarts Express. In PS, when Harry sets out for Kings Cross to catch the train, Hagrid has merely given him his ticket a month or so previously. Harry has problems finding his way to platform 9 3/4 - what might have happened for example if he hadn't met the Weasleys? This raises the question, how do new students know how to get to the train? It probably poses no problems to wizarding families but how did Hermione, who is from a Muggle family, know how to get through the gateway to the platform? Geoff From molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:33:38 2003 From: molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 19:33:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle-born adults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803023338.73973.qmail@web11602.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75008 --- oh have faith wrote: > > Though there are plenty of students at Hogwarts who > are muggle-born, > or half-blood, there doesn't seem to be an *adult* > character who is > anything but pureblood. The only exceptions I can > think of is > Nymphadora Tonks, who we learn in OOP is a > half-blood with a muggle > father, and Tom Riddle, who got a mundane muggle > name to go with his > muggle ancestory. Kathryn: My take on this is that it's just a generation thing. In the past, most pureblood wizards married other pure bloods because everyone thought like the Malfoys (purebloods are better). But it seems that there has been some enlightenment and less people think it's so important to be pureblood. So in the Marauders/Molly/Arthur generation it became more acceptable to marry muggles. Maybe they realized that bloodline has nothing to do with ability, and that they should marry for love, not for a pure bloodline. That would explain why we see more half-half students than adults. Or, as mentioned it might be because the books take place in the school so we know more student characters. But my guess is that marrying muggles used to be a huge taboo and now it's generally okay. Hope that helps! Kathryn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From pen at pensnest.co.uk Sun Aug 3 08:38:13 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:38:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle matches (Was Re: Muggle-born adults) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75009 On Sunday, Aug 3, 2003, at 08:38 Europe/London, Geoff Bannister wrote: > > Me: > I think it is only because, as others have pointed out, that we > haven't met more... > > "It's a disgusting thing to call someone", said Ron, wiping his > sweaty brow with a shaking hand, "Dirty blood, see. Common blood. > It's mad. Most wizards these days are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't > married Muggles, we'd've died out." > > (CoS chapter "Mudbloods and Murmurs") > It has just occurred to me to start wondering about this... How do so many wizards actually *meet* Muggles and socialise enough with them to get married? We see so many examples of wizards being entirely at sea in the Muggle world - all those absurd costumes at the World Cup, for instance, so the picture we are given of the wizarding world is that it is very much separate from the Muggles. Even someone as fascinated by all things Muggle as Arthur Weasley seems actually to regard non-magical people as something quite alien, and he has very little idea how to go on in Muggle-ish circumstances. Yet at the same time we are told that people like Seamus' and Tonks' parents are one-of-each. So who are these witches and wizards who mingle with Muggles? Any theories? Pen From pen at pensnest.co.uk Sun Aug 3 08:50:02 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:50:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's (un)fair grading (just got long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <78561490-C58F-11D7-AF6C-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 75010 On Saturday, Aug 2, 2003, at 13:25 Europe/London, M.Clifford wrote: Valky: > Well it did in the context of "Why did he set the test then?". > But out of this context it flails in this precise way. Now its been > pulled out of context and turned demonstration of my debate > incompetence I have nothing more to say. I assume that you do not > either Pen? > Indeed, I don't have any more to say on this topic - not because it isn't an interesting topic, but because I honestly find it very difficult to understand what you are saying. Pen From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 09:00:42 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 02:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle-born adults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803090042.2350.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75011 Snipet: Though there are plenty of students at Hogwarts who are muggle- born, > or half-blood, there doesn't seem to be an *adult* character who is > anything but pureblood. The only exceptions I can think of is > Nymphadora Tonks, who we learn in OOP is a half-blood with a muggle > father, and Tom Riddle, who got a mundane muggle name to go with his > muggle ancestory. > My reply: Would somebody please tell me why on Earth everybody keeps saying that Tonks is a half breed. TED IS NOT A MUGGLE! Tonks is no more of a half breed than Harry. Proof? Two quotes from the book clearly back me up. "My dad's a MUGGLE-BORN and he's a right old slob." (OOP, pg 50 US edition) "Andromeda's sisters are still here because they made lovely, respectable, pureblood marriages, but Andromeda married a muggle-born Ted Tonks, so-" (Sirius quote, pg. 113, US edition). Now unless my copy says something different than yours we see two references of Ted Tonks being a muggle born wizard, and nothing to dispute that fact. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Sun Aug 3 09:21:53 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 09:21:53 -0000 Subject: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angellslin" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Good observation indeed! Is it a British way that emotion is very > personal and should leave alone to the person him/herself? > > What do you think? > > > Angel I'll second that. When I moved to London from Los Angeles, I was delighted to find that English people were not constantly moaning about their emotional issues. To be sure, there was plenty of moaning, but personal things were pretty much kept...personal. When I came back to the U.S., I felt like I was on the damned Oprah show. For this reason, I never really got the impression that Harry was being neglected. I agree that he needs a parental figure in his life, and a hug, probably. But I can't see any adult outside of Sirius stepping in to fill that role. It would just seem weird to me. I don't know, maybe Lupin could be someone like that. I suspect he will take over Sirius' god-parenting duties to some extent. I still couldn't picture Harry crying on his shoulder though. Allyson > > Angel From subrosax at earthlink.net Sun Aug 3 09:43:09 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 09:43:09 -0000 Subject: Muggle matches (Was Re: Muggle-born adults) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: > > On Sunday, Aug 3, 2003, at 08:38 Europe/London, Geoff Bannister wrote: > > It has just occurred to me to start wondering about this... How do so > many wizards actually *meet* Muggles and socialise enough with them to > get married? > > We see so many examples of wizards being entirely at sea in the Muggle > world - all those absurd costumes at the World Cup, for instance, so > the picture we are given of the wizarding world is that it is very much > separate from the Muggles. Even someone as fascinated by all things > Muggle as Arthur Weasley seems actually to regard non-magical people as > something quite alien, and he has very little idea how to go on in > Muggle-ish circumstances. Yet at the same time we are told that > people like Seamus' and Tonks' parents are one-of-each. So who are > these witches and wizards who mingle with Muggles? > > Any theories? > > Pen Can't offer any theories I'm afraid, but this is something I've been wondering about myself. I remember in one of the books someone (Hagrid? Ron?) tells Harry that the MoM's main job is keeping it from muggles that there are wizards in the country. If true, it's a wonder they are able to manage it considering how ignorant most people seem to be about the non-magical world. I shudder to think what they are teaching in that Muggle Studies course. I recall a number of occasions while reading the books where I wondered aloud, "how stupid are these wizards?!!" You'd think one of them could use magic to conjure a public library card. Or, you know, just take a look around!! I can't think of any reason why the muggle world should be so mysterious. It's not exactly a secret. As to how muggle/wizard relationships get started, I can't imagine. Of course, the one that freaks me out is Hagrid's parents' muggle on giant romance. What the hell?!! Ick. Ick Ick Ick. Allyson From ohyeah0121 at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 2 21:27:52 2003 From: ohyeah0121 at yahoo.co.uk (ohyeah0121) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 21:27:52 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcyasser" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > So, it is reasonable that Auror seems dangerous and exciting now, > but how is Harry going to feel after a few more encounters with Death > > Eaters and Voldemort, and after the ULTIMATE encounter with > Voldemort? > > > > These encounters at the end of each book are brutal. Now > on top of the brutality and trama he has and will endure from these > encounters, Dumbledore has told Harry it must end with him being > murdered or commiting murder(murder=Harry's own words). > Harry is going to come out of this deeply scared and tramatized, and > > most critically, brutally famous. Everywhere he > > goes, everything he does, will mean countless people are going to > be epending on him to save them. > > > > As an Auror, Harry will be like Atlas, doomed to forever carry the > > weight of the world on his shoulders, but unlike Atlas, Harry is > not a supernatural being. No mere mortal can carry that much weight > for that long without it eventually crushing him; without it > eventually destroying him. > > > > No, I think once all is said and done, Harry will have more than > his fill of dark wizard fighting, and will be more content to live a > > quiet, benevolent, unassuming life. > > > > That's my story and I'm sticking to it. > > > > bboy_mn > > > This was an excellent post and I had a hard time snipping! Your > ideas about post-confrontation Harry made me copy this post from > another thread because I think it fits here with > ideas about Harry's future. > > I don't think Auror will be Harry's career choice, because I do > not believe he will wish to pursue dark wizards, however, I also > don't believe he will be forever beleaguered by distress calls. My > reference point is the other character we know who is famous for > defeating a dark wizard: one Albus Dumbledore. Perhaps that plays > into DD's overprotection of Harry - he knows from personal > experience what Harry may face, even beyond the ultimate encouter > with LV. I would like to know more about DD's defeat of Grindelwald > and hope JKR shares it with us. Because Hermione hasn't quoted it to > us from a history book (yet) I wonder if it is public knowledge: how > did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald? It had to have been a monumental > moment in wizarding history, yet DD is not obviously scarred, a > la Moody; he is sane, if whimsical; he has obviously been able to > lead a productive and healthy life following that confrontation and > victory, and he is certainly in possesion of his powers, enough to > make LV tremble in his booties. Early on in the series he does have > Fudge calling on him constantly for advice, and he doe head up both > incarnations of the Order, but otherwise he seems to live the > balanced, even somewhat serene headmaster ife, even if he is the > greatest sorcerer in the world. We tend to imagine Harry post-LV as > either dead, scarred, without magic, estranged from the magical > world; or just really unhappy. Yet we and Harry have to look at DD > as a role model in evil-wizard-battling; perhaps DD was even > prophesied to defeat Grindelwald, we don't know. But I expect more > exposition on DD's personal history as a guidepost for what Harry > may or may not be able to accomplish vs LV, and as to what the > personal cost of it may be to Harry. Does it have to end with Harry > destroyed, literally or figuratively, or does DD have other tricks > up his sleeve to mentor Harry? > cheers > dc Harry is quiet used to being treated as a freak, a curiosity, and is too famous to make a good Auro. So I suspect he will come the new defence against the dark arts, at the end of book seven. He did enjoy his DA classes and see Lupin as the best teacher. I think he is destined to become the next great wizardfollowing in Dumbledores foot steps. From lucchaser at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 23:47:33 2003 From: lucchaser at yahoo.com (lucchaser) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:47:33 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > ADVERTISEMENT > > In my opinion, another trajedy surrounding Sirius' death will be the loss of > his > wonderful lines from the series. You've got to admit, he's had some great > ones! Therefore, in his memory, I thought it would be great to list our all > time > favorites... > > Here are a few of mine: > 1. "You are truly your father's son, Harry." PoA > 2. "If you made a better rat that a human, it's not much to boast about, > Peter." > PoA > 3. (I can't remember this one exactly, and it's a long one, but... ) When > they > can't find Kreacher... "He's probably in the attic crying over my mum's old > bloomers." OoP [Again, sorry for mutiliating that line!] > > Anyone have any other favorites they'd like to add??? :) > > grindieloe > (who decided after posting this on ot-chatter that it may just be appropriate for > the main list - my apologies if it isn't!) My favorite lines are; (ootp,pg110) "Keep muttering and I will be a murderer" this next one is the continuation of your number 3 (ootp,pg 505) "...Of course, he might have crawled into the airing cupboard and died...But I mustn't get my hopes up..." I died laughing at that one. lucchaser From dadrucchi at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 23:48:36 2003 From: dadrucchi at yahoo.com (dadrucchi) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2003 23:48:36 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75016 Ariadne said: > I hope Harry ditches the Auror idea and decides to become a > professional Quidditch player. I dissagree completely, that would just be an emulation of common fanfiction speculation. That profession would be way too superficial for Harry. He shows house loyalty in quidditch, being on the team, but seems to show no interest in any profesional team as of yet, unlike Ron (or Cho). I dont remember ever reading about him showing interest in the chudley cannons, in fact in one of the "school books" which I think can be considered cannon, he wrote something along the lines of ?if youre going to write in my book at least choose a decent team?after ron wrote ?chudley cannons?in the book. I forget the proper wording, if you want to check, see the lexicon. Harry may not become an Auror, but to become a quidditch player would be a waste of his talents and a litterary dead-end. The justification of "taking it easy" is not fitting to Harrys character, he has too much of a protective attitude towards people and a feeling of responsability than to completely isolate himself in a profession of no importance. He is made for greater things From ivierska at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 00:39:56 2003 From: ivierska at hotmail.com (ivierska) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:39:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75017 "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."(p.525, GoF) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > There are a lot, but here are a few that immediately leaped out at > me when I saw the subject line: > > "Make it quick, Remus. I want to commit the murder I was imprisoned > for." -- That line never fails to give me a chill. > > "I'm pretending to be a lovable stray." > > "The world is not divided into nice people and Death Eaters." > > Marina > rusalka at i... From emlette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 00:45:27 2003 From: emlette at yahoo.com (emlette) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 00:45:27 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > I hope Harry ditches the Auror idea and decides to become a > professional Quidditch player. If anyone deserves an easier life > (besides the bludgers, of course), it's Harry. Rowling always > includes glowing descriptions of how Harry feels when he's flying, > and it is bliss for him. It could just turn into a nice hobby to > take his mind off his work as an auror, but I hope if he's still > around when the curtain falls, he will choose to give himself a break > for awhile. Ariadne I can definitely see Harry as an Auror or Quidditch player. (That WOULD be great, because Quidditch makes him so happy. What would he do once his Quidditch career is over, though?) Another career possibility occurred to me, too. What if he taught Defense Against the Dark Arts at Hogwarts? He's got a real gift for DADA, and he really enjoys teaching and watching the members of DA improve. Maybe that's the reason JKR has kept the DADA professor position open for so long... But I wonder if Harry would rather be out fighting dark wizards directly as an Auror. From cmeehan1 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 01:24:51 2003 From: cmeehan1 at aol.com (gryffindorgirl72000) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 01:24:51 -0000 Subject: My theories for books 6 and 7 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75019 Hi all! Just wanted to share some of my theories for the future books: 1. I think Harry can do magic with his eyes ( i.e. he doesn't have to have a wand) and I think this is the power Voldemort doesn't know about. I don't think Harry will vanquish you know who with the Avada Kedavra but I don't know what it will be. Heidi suggested having a dementor suck his soul out... 2. Harry won't want to get close to anyone in book 6 because he will be worried Voldemort will go after them. He may push Ron and Hermione away. 3. Neville will be the student that stays on at Hogwarts to teach Herbology. 4. And, of course, either the end of book 6 or mid-book 7 Harry will realize how great Ginny is and fall for her. It will hit him like a ton of bricks (like Jane Austen's "Emma") (you know its going to happen! :) ) From lucchaser at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 01:56:19 2003 From: lucchaser at yahoo.com (Lady Luck) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 01:56:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acciosirius" > wrote: > > Grindielow: > > > > > In my opinion, another trajedy surrounding Sirius' death will be > > the loss of > > > his > > > wonderful lines from the series. You've got to admit, he's had > > some great > > > ones! Therefore, in his memory, I thought it would be great to > > list our all > > > time > > > favorites... > > > > > > Here are a few of mine: > > > 1. "You are truly your father's son, Harry." PoA > > > 2. "If you made a better rat that a human, it's not much to > boast > > about, > > > Peter." > > > PoA > > > 3. (I can't remember this one exactly, and it's a long one, > > but... ) When > > > they > > > can't find Kreacher... "He's probably in the attic crying over > my > > mum's old > > > bloomers." OoP [Again, sorry for mutiliating that line!] > > > > Now me (acciosirius - Jen): > > > > Great topic, as he was/is my favorite character! :-) > > > > In addition to your #2, one of mine has to be, "Personally, I'd > have > > welcomed a dementor attack. A deadly struggle for my soul would > have > > broken the monotony nicely." (pg.82, U.S. OoP) > > > > I'm sure I'll have more, I just don't have the time to look up the > > exact quotes right now! > > > > Jen > > Mine: > > "Well you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a > lifetime of service or death." (P. 104 UK OoP) > > "There's Phineus Nigellus ... my great-great-grandfather, see? ... > least popular headmaster Hogwarts ever had...[and the rest of this > speech which is on P. 105 OoP UK]. > > To Snape: "You know, ....I think I'd prefer if you didn't give > orders here, Snape. It's my house, you see." (P458 OoP UK) > > and many more. > > June Mine are: (ootp, pg 110) "Keep muttering and I will be a murderer". (ootp, pg 505) "...Of course, he might have crawled into the airing cupboard and died...But I mustn't get my hopes up..." I died laughing at that one. lucchaser From summerdazeno1 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 02:58:34 2003 From: summerdazeno1 at yahoo.com (summerdazeno1) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 02:58:34 -0000 Subject: Who Could Kill Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jakedjensen" wrote: > > His ages suggests he[Dumbledore] is using some sort of magical device to extend > his life. (150+) A device which he may have been forced to destroy > (PS/SS). It is possible that he, like Nicolas Flamel, is living on a > small remainder of elixer (just enough to get his affairs in order). > Speaking of which, does anyone else think Nicolas Flamel is > important? We get a lot of random information about him (where he > lives, his age, name of his wife). Anyone have any interesting > theories about him? There actually was a 14th century alchemist by the name of Nicholas Flamel. According to Llewellyn's Witches Calendar 2003, On January 17, 1382 Nicholas Flamel and his wife Perenella claimed to have discovered the secret of transmutation when gold appeared in a vessel. This isn't really relevant to the plot, but we do at least know where JKR got the idea for the character. -Summer ____________ From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 03:34:24 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 03:34:24 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75022 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" > wrote: > > > > > > > > But I still wonder then why Flamel and Dumbledore decided the > stone > > > would be safer at Hogwarts, or even at Gringott's than with > Flamel. > > > > > > This is way too much fun, > > > > > > KathyK (still dizzy and enjoying it) > > > > > > Only a guess,but maybe the move was the result of Spy!Snape coming > up with the > > goods. So far we haven't heard of anything useful being acheived by > his undercover > > work, but if he heard of an attempt to get the Stone then DD would > take action to > > protect it. > > > > Kneasy > > That's an interesting idea. Do the supposedly former Death Eaters > sit around and plot the return of Voldemort? Were others in on the > plot to get the stone along with Quirrel? Snape could have found out > from one of them that they wanted the stone and for what purpose. If > Quirrel/Voldemort were the only ones in on it, what might Quirrel > have done to attract Snape's suspicion that he was in league with > Voldemort? I always thought Quirrel was in it alone with Voldemort > as the fewer people who know of the plot the better, but who knows? > > I could keep going forever but I have to go to work in 10 minutes, > > KathyK I think the stone had been at Gringott's for a long time. The goblin said they check the vault for intruders every 10 years or so. My idea was that Voldemort/Quirrell should have tried to steal some elixir from flamel, just to sort of "power up" a little, before attempting to steal the stone itself. Olaf, glad and big From amoryblaine1980 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 05:00:39 2003 From: amoryblaine1980 at yahoo.com (amoryblaine1980) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 05:00:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines or Last Lines In-Reply-To: <115.270de90c.2c5ddc72@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/2/03 3:02:35 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > arrowsmithbt at b... writes: > > > > A favourite character for some he may be, but lets not get Messianic. > > Um...what does "Messianic" mean? I'd try to look it up on an on-line > dictionary, but I have AOL and it's currently not letting me get on any webpages. > Thanks! > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Just an FYI: According to the Merriam-Webster Collegate Dictionary 11th Ed. Messianic: 1. of or relating to a messiah 2. marked by idealism and an aggressive crusading spirit AmoryBlaine1980 From looscann at sprynet.com Sun Aug 3 05:02:42 2003 From: looscann at sprynet.com (looscann) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 05:02:42 -0000 Subject: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: >No doubt the robe is the default wizard garment, it's just that I >think there must be more to it than that. More than JUST a robe and >underpants. I wonder though, given that James and Sirius were going for maximum humiliation, wouldn't they have immediatiately come up with some way to taunt Snape about having only underpants on under his robe if that were in any way unusual? The only gibe that came his way about his underpants was from Lily and it was more a matter of their cleanliness rather than their being an inadequate amount of clothing under his robes. About Tonk's tee-shirt and jeans; her clothing style wasn't mentioned the first time Harry met her, when she appeared with a group of other wizarding folk. *I* envisioned the whole crew in robes, poking about the Dursleys' kitchen, if only because of the Muggle-Wizard contrast. She was dressed in tweeds when she was undercover as an elderly woman when they were catching the Knight Bus, and I had the impression that she - and all the other folks meeting Harry at King's Cross - was dressed in sorta-kinda Muggle styled clothing, again undercover, to blend in at the train station. Which she did admirably, hair style and all. Les From l10r77 at juno.com Sun Aug 3 05:19:06 2003 From: l10r77 at juno.com (Lisa) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 01:19:06 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: New here...replies on Snape posts. Message-ID: <3F2C9B4A.000003.52131@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 75025 From: "lucchaser" I agree with K. I just want to add the to the fact that we don't know the whole story with James, Sirius and Snape. We just got a little glimse of what they were like when they were younger (at that perfect age of 15). There is more to it, so we really can't judge James and Sirius on that one scene. For all we know, judging on how Snape was defending himself, Snape could have done some horrible things to James, Sirius and company too. . Hey all, I'm new here. I'll try to respond to the posts all in one email (I m on digest, so thanks for your patience!) I don't know if I agree with that. True, it was only a moment in time which was revealed to us. I do recall one of the Marauders stating that they were bothered by the fact that Snape merely "exists". Might have been James, but most likely Sirius (my copy of OotP is currently loaned to a co-worker). It doesn't sound like Snape acutally did anything at all to them in any regard *except* defend himself. Dumbledore did also say that he made Lupin a prefect in the hopes that he would control the behaviour of James and Sirius Sounds like they were doing just more than sneaking out using the map to get them in trouble. From that fact I would likely think the past-times of both involved more than that, such as buggering other students, Snape included. I believe Snape is too much of a loner to ever instigate any troublemaking. I'm not saying that I don't like any of the Marauders there seems to be occasion to question their motives. JMHO *** From: "subrosax99" Re: Snape Respects Harry Now When it came down to a moment of real crisis, Harry was running around like a chicken with it's head cut off, and as usual, took matters into his own hands. This seemed rather like plucky aplomb in the earlier books, but this time it struck me as totally irresponsible and selfish. Then Harry has the audacity to blame Snape for the whole fiasco. . Is this in reference to the MoM and the Death of Sirius? If so I do agree with this statement. Regardless of Snape's treatment of Harry, he never given Harry a reason up to this point to doubt his loyalties. When Harry mentions the danger that Padfoot is in, Snape immediately takes action. He does so without regard to his personal feelings about Sirius. Snape has always protected and looked out for Harry and now show intiative to save someone he loathes? That answers any questions I had about his loyalty to Dumbledore and the Order. Two points as well, in Chamber of Secrets, when the original message about the heir to Slytherin appears, isn't it Snape that states perhaps Harry and his companions are in the wrong place at the wrong time? Also, during the dueling scene between Malfoy and Harry, doesn't Snape in a casual manner tell Harry that he will take care of the snake that Malfoy has conjured because it seems he is concerned? I'll be the first to admit Snape is less than congenial but when the time comes he steps up to the plate. *** From: "Donna" Subject: Re: Harry's dad I, for one, am most curious to know more about James' family. Was James a pure blood wizard? There are clues as to him being a very talented wizard. Is there a possiblity that through James, Harry and Voldemort have a familial connection? Is that why Voldemort chose Harry rather than Neville? Both of their parents defeated Voldemort three times. . I've wondered the same thing. The parental emphasis seems to be on Harry's mother so I think if there is a link, it's on his mum's side, but it seems that his father must have loved him as much. I'm inclined to believe that James may have been a pure blood. Have we ever really found out why LV targeted the Potters other than the incomplete prohecy he heard? I'm convinced there must be something more? If anyone can tell me I'd sure be glad to know. James' quality was that he didn't care about a person's lineage, hence marrying Lily, befriending Lupin and so forth. LV's concern was keeping the half-bloods and muggle-borns out of the wizarding world. I hope I did all this correctly according to the rules :) I still have 4 more digests to sort through tonight so there might be more. Yes, I do like Snape, but there is no character in HP that I don't like, even the snide little prat Draco...he provides some entertainment. I just love a good debate! Thanks for having me on the list. Lisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From l10r77 at juno.com Sun Aug 3 05:48:21 2003 From: l10r77 at juno.com (Lisa) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 01:48:21 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: more replies, Harry's future, etc Message-ID: <3F2CA225.000008.52131@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 75026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > What do you think is Harry's future? ...edited... > > "Donna" I think he jumps on the Auror bandwagon just to bug Umbridge but it might be something he considers. But am I incorrect in believing that the job of an Auror basically a bounty hunter out for DE's? If and when the down fall of LV comes about, will we find out who the DE's were (I hope Malfoy gets his comeuppance!) and what would necessity for an Auror be if all the DE's are found and LV is defeated? hmmmm.... *** From: "lupinwolf2001" Subject: Re: Unaccounted DEs but again, why would voldemort mention the lestanges in azkaban but not the rest of the DEs that went there for him? The LeStranges, especially Bellatrix seems a bit, uh...fanatical in their devotion to LV. I think most of the DE's were in Azkaban because the were proven to be DE's and that's the end of that. Bellatrix and her Lestrange cohorts were vowing their loyalty through and through most vocally, as in the Pensieve scene, and LV likes nothing more that unwaivering devotion to him and his cause. A question of my own. Does anyone else find it disturbing that in CoS, Percy is seen by Ron a book entitled "Prefects Who Came To Power" or some title like that? *** From: Melanie Black Subject: Re: Re: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic)VERY LONGISH My reply: Not to mention she took Harry in. I do not believe she was forced to do this..perhaps, encouraged a little but I don't know if she was neccessarily forced. And I must add that no matter what has been said..Petunia has never thrown her nephew out. She didn't argue with Vernon (Out of fear) but she did keep him here. I'm extremely curious to know what was in the letter Dumbledore left with Harry when he delivered him to the Dursleys. It must have been something pretty convincing. Doesn't she get a Howler or something to that effect? Dumbledore reminds her why she took in Harry, that she must remember what was written in the letter. She's knows more about the WW than she's willing to admit. I think a tinge of jealousy always played into her "dislike" of magic because her parents were proud when Lily was admitted to Hogwards. *** From: "marinafrants" Subject: Snape and Neville (Was: Re: Snape's grading may not be fair, but.. _ Look, I think Snape is fantastic. I admire the hell out of him for having the courage to reject the DEs and turn spy. I'm very sorry he was bullied as a kid, and his home life probably sucked. I respect his loyalty to Dumbledore, and his continued willingness to fight for the right side, even when the right side is composed almost entirely of people he hates. More power to him. But I really don't see why it's necessary to find a hidden virtuous motive for every nasty thing he does. I know we're not supposed to do things like this but (a me too, post) but Marina, I couldn't have said it better myself.! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 09:30:17 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 09:30:17 -0000 Subject: Portraits - Additional: Actors Playing a Role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > ...edited... > > > >> Portraits are actors in two senses; they are playing the role of > the person in the portrait and the are playing the role OF a portrait. << > > > > ...edited.. > > > > bboy_mn > > bboy_mn: > > I want to add some additional thoughts about how and why I concluded > that protraits are actors playing a role. > > Actually, I base this on enchanted photographs which are not as > sophisticated, refined, or as subtle as portraits and therefore their > action are a little easier to read. > > You will notice that photographs in newspaper and magazine articles > while they to to a small extent reflect the person in the photo, they > more often reflect the content of the article. > > If Harry is pictured and portrayed as unstable, then the photo of him > looks very shifty and menacing. In the articles that portray him in a > good light, the photo takes on the demeanor of the rosy cheeked, > smiling faced all-American boy, or in this case, the quintessentially > clean cut, bring him home to mama, All-British boy. > > Now encanted portraits which are much more sophisticated, and stand > alone without the context of an article to influence them, so they > retain more of the natural personality of the real person. But I also > suspect that since they are actors portraying a role, they do to some > extent reflect the world's perceived belief in who they are. So a > wizard who was perceived to be evil, would reflect an essence of evil > in his portrait. Although, I think that would be more hinted at, his > real personality would dominate. > > Just some additional thoughts. > > bboy_mn I think, and I could be wrong, but photographs, as Colin pointed out need to be developed in special solutions to make them move. Move only not communicate. With portraits, since they would be painted by wizards/witches, would be enchanted someway to reflect the personality of the person posing. And it would definately have to involve a living person. How else would that person's personality be transferred. I don't think that a "piece of the person" need be imbedded in the paint. At least I don't recall that being said in any of the books. Unless JKR actually said that in an interview, when a portrait is painted it "captures" the essence of the person at the time it was painted. If you remember, in GoF, when Hermione takes Harry and Ron to the kitchens, she tickles the pear, it giggles and turns into a doorknob. How do you explain that, if a pear is not a person? Donna From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 09:52:05 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 09:52:05 -0000 Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75028 ---> > Yep. I just checked it out and you are absolutely correct. The book > says 20 brooms. I totally agree that Harry ought to know the names of > the Slytherins, at least the one's in his year. Their parents could > be DE's or conversely, there might be a couple of "good" Slytherins > in the mix. It couldn't hurt for Harry to be friendly with them. Good > catch on that broom scene. Gives us a pretty good idea of how many > students there are. I know JKR said there were about 1,000 students > at Hogwarts, but that number doesn't seem to wash. > > > Allyson It is possible that Gryffindor and Slytherin are elite houses. Maybe there are 1,000 students at Hogwarts and most of them are Hufflepuffs. Just a thought. Olaf, glad and big From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 10:05:33 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:05:33 -0000 Subject: Voices and Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75029 --- > > > > And that also leaves me to wonder, do identical spells work in > other > > languages? I assume that the French and Bulgarian students > speak...uh...French and > > Bulgarian, but are wizarding commands in a language all their own? > Are spells in > > Esperanto (j/k), or does the French version of Accio sound > different than the > > British version of Accio? > > > > Beth, who has digressed. Sorry > > > Great questions! I cannot even begin to imagine what would happen to > a witch or wizard who was born mute. Something like a squib maybe? I > suppose they could still do things like potions or herbology. I could > be wrong, but I don't recall any instance where magical commands were > needed for a potion. > As for the magical commands, I suspect they are the same no matter > what the spoken language of the individual wizard. They are probably > codified in one language, similar to the way Latin is used in > scientific nomenclature. > > > Allyson Actually, to me most of the spells do sort of sound something like esperanto (or a least some sort of mock-Latin). Olaf, glad and big. From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sun Aug 3 10:13:13 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:13:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius' exit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75030 Dunno if he really died. If he did, then JRK has little respect for him, since his death was due to his carelessness, and that's not the way I would think he'd die. Plus, it appears that he went into the veil alive, since he wasn't hit with an unforgivable, if I recall the colors correctly. Somehow I think that the mirror he gave Harry will hold some secrets for him later. JMHO. Jeff --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lynne" wrote: > I didn't cry either at first, but I was depressed for a few days. > Then it kinda "sank in" and I sat down and cried!! All this over > a character in a book for goodness sake! It just seemed too quick, > too insignificant. It is almost as if JKR made it as "quick and > painless" for Sirius as possible. (I remember she stated in an > interview that "he had to die") I want to believe that Luna > Lovegood's mentioning to Harry that he will see Sirius again and > pointing out to Harry that he did hear the voices from behind the > veil mean he isn't really gone for good, but, it could just be that > old "see him again in the great beyond" type thing. I will be > interested in seeing if Harry talks to Lupin about his parents since > removing Sirius from the picture removes Harry's best source of info > on his parents' history. Geeze, I am getting that sinking feeling in > my stomach talking about Sirius' demise again... > Lynne From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 10:20:46 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:20:46 -0000 Subject: Peck of Owls In-Reply-To: <23.331c5f6b.2c5e10ec@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75031 --- > > > > Beth in Sacramento says: > > Actually, a group owls was called a parliament. Don't ask me how I know that. > > But as far as Vernon changing his words, I assumed it was just a > demonstration of his ignorance - he got it right the first time, and then corrected it to > something that was wrong. I don't think there was any hidden meaning, I just > thought he was being a git like he always is. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] I don't think a group of owls is called a parliament. There is a poem by Chaucer called "The Parliament of Fowles". Maybe that's what you're thinking of. Olaf, glad and big From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 10:47:08 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:47:08 -0000 Subject: Elixir of life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > Nicholas Flamel is an alchemist. That's Magic; therefore he's a > wizard. I am not sure that alchemy is magic. It does not seem to be on the curriculum at Hogwarts. Also, during the time of muggle persecution of the WW, alchemists were left alone and actually respected. Olaf, glad and big From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 10:55:38 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 10:55:38 -0000 Subject: Peck of Owls In-Reply-To: <23.331c5f6b.2c5e10ec@cs.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75033 --- > > > Beth in Sacramento says: > > Actually, a group owls was called a parliament. Don't ask me how I know that. > > Okay. I was wrong. According to a website i found, a group of owls really is called a parliament. Sorry about that Beth. (Although I still say there is no need for a term referring to a group of animals who do not gather in groups.) Olaf, glad and big From Lynx412 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 11:39:24 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 07:39:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry the Auror... or not? Message-ID: <15f.24087635.2c5e4e6c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75034 In a message dated 8/3/03 7:24:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, ohyeah0121 at yahoo.co.uk writes: > Harry is quiet used to being treated as a freak, a curiosity, and is > too famous to make a good Auro. So I suspect he will come the new > defence against the dark arts, at the end of book seven. He did > enjoy his DA classes and see Lupin as the best teacher. I think he > is destined to become the next great wizardfollowing in Dumbledores > foot steps. I think that Harry will become an 'Unspeakable'. He's certainly had enough experience with the subjects they study. I also see him eventually becoming Hogwarts Headmaster. I can also see the last line of the 7th book referring to his image on a Chocolate Frog card. Given the paralleling that the series has already shown, I see the epilog as repeating, with a new set of students, Harry's first trip to Hogwarts, with another set of Weasleys meeting a new muggle-born/raised student. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 3 11:51:11 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:51:11 +0100 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75035 I think that this interpretation is new. If anyone has already offered it, I apologise - I can't keep up with all the postings. Just about everyone else has had a crack at this Prophecy- usually ending up in syntactical contortions that leave them looking up their own fundaments. Now it's my turn to expose myself to the merciless gaze of the site sceptics. OK. A bit of thought before tackling the Prophecy itself. 1. For successful analysis we must accept that the Prophecy is complete and accurate. Otherwise, forget it - we're reduced to guesswork. 2. Any analysis must fit the existing plot-line as we know it. Past as well as present and hints for the future too. No extra bits of wishful thinking to force it to fill in any gaps. Strict canon only. 3. It must explain Dumbledores' certainty that Harry is indeed the one to fight Voldemort, without any reservations. Right. The Prophecy: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have a power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... Most can be taken as straight-forward; "born as the seventh month" etc. The bit that has caused all the difficulty is "but he will have a power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives.." Trying to sort out the 'either, neither, other' is the key. Now, the assumption has been that this passage refers to Harry and Voldemort *only*. Why should it? Two other people have already been referred to in the Prophecy, why not again? "born to those" refers to the Potters or the Longbottoms, according to the birthdates of Harry and Neville. Now insert some names, fitting the existing canon, into that bit of the Prophecy. "but he will have a power Voldemort knows not, and either Harry or Voldemort must die at the hand of the other for neither James nor Lily can live while Harry survives". The power we know about, it's been mentioned before, parental love plus the power of family that also protects Harry at the Dursleys. DD has also told us that Voldemort does not know or understand it. So, Harry is born at the right time, to the right parents, who die passing on to him a power unknown to Voldemort that enables Harry to live and he is marked in the process. Strictly canon. Nothing missing, nothing extra. Neville can now be eliminated as Voldemorts nemesis, his parents were damaged but survived. Hence Dumbledores' certainty. The intriguing bit is that which has not yet happened. There is no certainty that Harry will win. Comments please! Kneasy From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 11:55:19 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 11:55:19 -0000 Subject: Getting to Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Forgive ne if this topic has been covered in the past, but I am > puzzled about sudents getting to Hogwarts on the Hogwarts Express. > > In PS, when Harry sets out for Kings Cross to catch the train, Hagrid > has merely given him his ticket a month or so previously. Harry has > problems finding his way to platform 9 3/4 - what might have happened > for example if he hadn't met the Weasleys? > > This raises the question, how do new students know how to get to the > train? It probably poses no problems to wizarding families but how > did Hermione, who is from a Muggle family, know how to get through > the gateway to the platform? > > Geoff I've always thought that McGonagall might include some extra information about the Wizarding World and about Hogwarts when sending off letters to muggle born students. If I just received a letter in the mail saying I've been accepted to some school I'd never heard of that teaches magic and here is what I will need to purchase, I would think the whole thing a bizarre joke. Muggle parents probably need a bit of convincing or reassurance that Hogwarts is indeed a legitimate place and that magic is real. As part of this extra information, there are instructions on how to go about acquiring what the student will need and how to access the Hogwarts Express. Harry was a special case because he's Harry Potter. The letters clearly weren't reaching him despite the owls best efforts. There's no way the most famous wizard boy in the world was not going to go to Hogwarts. So Dumbledore sent Hagrid to help Harry out. Harry therefore did not need all the extra information because he had Hagrid to guide him through Diagon Alley and to tell him about the Hogwarts Express. Hagrid just forgot to divulge the tiny detail of how to get to the train. If Harry hadn't met the Weasleys and he missed the train, I'm sure Dumbledore would send someone to investigate and make sure Harry made it to school. KathyK From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sun Aug 3 12:06:21 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:06:21 -0000 Subject: Questions on Nagini In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo > > wrote: > > > > > > > Did you read somewhere that JKR got the Nagini thing from > Hinduism? > > I thought she might have been influenced by Rudyard Kipling's > Rikki > > Tikki Tavi story, where the family mongoose kills a family of > > cobras . . . "just under him whizzed by the head of Nagaina, Nag's > > wicked wife." Still the Hindu influence, certainly. Beyond the > name, > > I don't think Nagini is anything other than a big snake that's > > obedient to Voldy. > > > > > > owlery2003 > > > > > India (where Rikki Tikki Tavi takes place),Hinduism and its > effects > > are quite inseparable. Snakes in Hinduism have magical power so I > am > > sure she wanted that referenced. Read Basham's "The Wonder That > Was > > India" for the full story. > > Jennifer > my reply: according to canon, she word played this one, Naga is > Sanskrit for "snake". not sure of Sanskrit is Hindu but thought I > would add it. Lori Spot on, Lori. Sanskrit is the ancient language of India and Hinduism. The Vedas and the Upanishads, the two oldest sacred texts of Hinduism are in Sanskrit! Jennifer From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 12:09:49 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:09:49 -0000 Subject: Solid Gold Cauldron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75038 I was rereading my copy of SS today while obsessing over a thread here on this site and I just had a random little thing to share. You know how Snape got on Harry's back the moment the first Potions lesson began asking him questions that only Hermione could have answered and mocking his fame? Well I was just thinking that if Snape disliked Harry that much from the start, imagine how much worse he would have treated him in that first lesson if Harry had shown up with that solid gold cauldron he wanted to buy in Diagon Alley. Famous Harry Potter is too good for a mere pewter cauldron like everyone else. He just has to stand out, and I'm taking more points for not following instructions. Harry owes Hagrid big time for talking him out of that purchase! KathyK From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Aug 3 12:11:52 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:11:52 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75039 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > > OK. A bit of thought before tackling the Prophecy itself. > > 1. For successful analysis we must accept that the Prophecy is complete > and accurate. Otherwise, forget it - we're reduced to guesswork. I agree. But still I think that Dumbledore's interpretation of the prophecy is somehow inaccurate. I don't know how, if it has to do something with Neville or if it is another point, but I am sure JKR gave us a hint that the interpretation isn't quite correct, when Firenze warned, how tricky Divination is. Hickengruendler From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 12:38:12 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:38:12 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > > I think the stone had been at Gringott's for a long time. The goblin > said they check the vault for intruders every 10 years or so. My idea > was that Voldemort/Quirrell should have tried to steal some elixir > from flamel, just to sort of "power up" a little, before attempting > to steal the stone itself. > Olaf, glad and big I think that would be suicidal considering Flamel has presumably spent hundreds of years keeping the stone and himself safe from everyone who wants wealth and immortality. Of course, that doesn't have to stop someone from trying. But if Flamel and Dumbledore didn't already know that someone was after the stone, going after the Elixir would certainly set off alarms. I would hope that Voldemort would consider this before acting rashly. I've been rereading the first book today, so I agree that the stone has probably been at Gringotts for quite some time. KathyK (who just can't stop) From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:17:49 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 06:17:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Portraits - Additional: Actors Playing a Role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803131749.58950.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75041 Donna wrote: "Steve" wrote: Portraits are actors in two senses; they are playing the role of the person in the portrait and the are playing the role OF a portrait...I ...suspect that since they are actors portraying a role, they do to some extent reflect the world's perceived belief in who they are. So a wizard who was perceived to be evil, would reflect an essence of evil in his portrait. Although, I think that would be more hinted at, his real personality would dominate. --------------- Interesting theory, but I tend to think the "real person" is somehow represented (and not by an "actor"). In DD's office, we see the former headmasters, and I can't imagine they are anyone other than the "real" thing. No idea how it happens (magic!), but their reactions/actions don't suggest anything other. Phineas Nigellus is a good example, as he turns from the snippy, dark headmaster-character to the concerned distant relative when he learns that Sirius is dead. My two knuts! owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:22:19 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:22:19 -0000 Subject: Portraits - Additional: Actors Playing a Role In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > >> Portraits are actors in two senses; they are playing the role of the person in the portrait and the are playing the role OF a portrait. << > > > bboy_mn > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > I want to add some additional thoughts about how and why I > > concluded that protraits are actors playing a role. > > > > Actually, I base this on enchanted photographs which are not as > > sophisticated, refined, or as subtle as portraits and therefore > > their action are a little easier to read. > > > > You will notice that photographs in newspaper and magazine > > articles while they to to a small extent reflect the person in the > > photo, they more often reflect the content of the article. > > > > ...edited... > > > > bboy_mn > Donna: > > I think... photographs, as Colin pointed out need to be developed in > special solutions to make them move. Move only, not communicate. > bboy_mn: Agreed. Actually I agree with most of what you said, but I think we are looking at it from a slightly different perspective. True, photographs MOVE ONLY, they don't communicate; at least, not with speech. But the do commuicate with body language and demeanor. Also notice that all the examples I gave in the sections I edited out above, all referenced appearance. In bad articles of Harry, he looks shifty and devious. In good articles about Harry, he looks like a clean cut all around nice guy. I could even be the same photo for both articles, but the image in the photo plays a different actor's role that reflects the context of the article. As a side note: the context of a portrait is the persons life, using the same language as above, the persons live story and history are the context that is reflected by the actor in the portrait. Also true, photos are developed in a special potion, and while it is not clearly defined, portraits may also use potions, but generally, portraits are produced by a different process. All I am saying, is that the result of each process produces a similar result. However, photos are very primitive and limited, whereas, portraits are very detailed and sophisticated. But the nature of primitive photos can serve as a model to give us insight into the nature of more sophisticated portraits. Because photos are less sophisticated, the actor playing the role becomes more obvious. > With portraits, since they would be painted by wizards/witches, > would be enchanted someway to reflect the personality of the person > posing. And it would definately have to involve a living person. > How else would that person's personality be transferred. I don't > think that a "piece of the person" need be imbedded in the paint. bboy_mn: I admited that I wasn't sure of the reference to putting tissue of the person in the portrait, but I vaguely recall coming across it several times. Still, I can't say if it was people speculating, or if there is some data to back it up. Maybe someone else remembers the reference and can clear that up for us. And again, I acknowledge the different process, but in my own personal opinion, one process is just an extension of the other. The portrait process in just a much more complicated and sophisticated version of the photo process. > > If you remember, in GoF, when Hermione takes Harry and Ron to the > kitchens, she tickles the pear, it giggles and turns into a > doorknob. How do you explain that, if a pear is not a person? > > Donna bboy_mn: A worthwhile point, but we need to remember that the portrait with the pear has been additionally enchanted to function as a tool. That tool being a 'door knob'. So here we have gone beyond animating the portrait, to given it a practical function. That is a different process, a different enchantment for a completely different purpose than portraits that are true to life animated representations of a living or at one time living person. Remember, that most of this is just my best guess as to what is likely. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:26:42 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:26:42 -0000 Subject: Muggle matches (Was Re: Muggle-born adults) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: It has just occurred to me to start wondering about this... How do so many wizards actually *meet* Muggles and socialise enough with them to get married? . . .So who are these witches and wizards who mingle with Muggles? Any theories? Pen > Many of the wiches and wizards that marry muggles are probably muggle-born. They still associate with their families. A muggle- born which might occassinonaly go out to a muggle club or party with with her sister and meet some one there. Or one of her parents neighbors may drop by to borrow something while she's there and start flirting with her. The same rules might apply with actual (literal) half-bloods. As far as pureblood, that's probably less common. Mybe a wizard buying muggle clothes for the World Cup runs into a muggle-girl at the clothing store, decides to get her help on picking out an outfit, ans she asks him out for coffee. (But if he has a set if muggle clothes, why do he need more? Has he gained/lost a little weight?) Also, you have to remember that the child of a muggle-born and a pureblood seems to be considered a hal-blood. bibphile From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:29:39 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:29:39 -0000 Subject: Muggle-born adults In-Reply-To: <20030803090042.2350.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black My reply: Would somebody please tell me why on Earth everybody keeps saying that Tonks is a half breed. TED IS NOT A MUGGLE! Tonks is no more of a half breed than Harry. Proof? Two quotes from the book clearly back me up. "My dad's a MUGGLE-BORN and he's a right old slob." (OOP, pg 50 US edition) "Andromeda's sisters are still here because they made lovely, respectable, pureblood marriages, but Andromeda married a muggle- born Ted Tonks, so-" (Sirius quote, pg. 113, US edition). Now unless my copy says something different than yours we see two references of Ted Tonks being a muggle born wizard, and nothing to dispute that fact. > > ~Melanie Ted is muggle-born. I don't know why so many people are mixed up about that. However, it looks as if wizarding sosiety considers someone half-blood if they have a muggle-born parent. (Harry has been referred to as a half-blood on two occassions and never as a pureblood.) If that's the case then Tonks would count too. bibphile From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Aug 3 13:34:39 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:34:39 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > > 1. For successful analysis we must accept that the Prophecy is complete > and accurate. Otherwise, forget it - we're reduced to guesswork. > > 2. Any analysis must fit the existing plot-line as we know it. Past as > well as present and hints for the future too. No extra bits of wishful > thinking to force it to fill in any gaps. Strict canon only. Unfortunately, I no longer trust Rowling on this. She isn't always adhering to the rules governing a fantasy genre, so I could see her pulling a fast one here. Here's a fanciful interpretation: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches..." who is to say that this means that the unknown hero is about to be born? Why couldn't it be someone already alive, born in July some time ago? Oh, yes, Rowling would have to fill in more backstory then, but it wouldn't be the first time. What do we know about Lupin? Or Dumbledore - was he born in July? (Except his parents might have been a bit old to defy LV three times, but you never know.) Maybe it's Krum! You can do anything if you want to stretch the rules far enough. > > 3. It must explain Dumbledores' certainty that Harry is indeed the one > to fight Voldemort, without any reservations. Ah, but Dumbledore makes mistakes, haven't we just learned that? And Firenze warns that even centaurs get divination wrong, so why shouldn't Dumbledore have misread the prophecy? Wanda From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:36:20 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:36:20 -0000 Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: Yep. I just checked it out and you are absolutely correct. The book says 20 brooms. I totally agree that Harry ought to know the names of the Slytherins, at least the one's in his year. > Allyson I agree that Harry should know, but he doesn't. His herbology class is the same size and we saw at the beggining of OotP that he either doesn't know or isn't sure or severasl of their names. Harry doesn't seem to bother to learn the names of people unless they associate with him somehow. Being in the same class just ins't enough. Maybe it's because he's got alot going on and doesn't have time. Or maybe it's because as a kid im muggle-school none of the other students wanted anything to do with him so he just gor used to never reaching out. I don't think we've ever seen him start a converation with someone new. They've either introduced themselves,like Ron, or been introduced to him, like Oliver. bibphile From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:41:35 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:41:35 -0000 Subject: Solid Gold Cauldron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: Well I was just thinking that if Snape disliked Harry that much from the start, imagine how much worse he would have treated him in that first lesson if Harry had shown up with that solid gold cauldron he wanted to buy in Diagon Alley. Famous Harry Potter is too good for a mere pewter cauldron like everyone else. He just has to stand out, and I'm taking more points for not following instructions. > > KathyK > Am I the only one that assumed some potions have to be brewed to cauldrons made of specific materials. Basically, I thought that many potionc could be brewed in anything but that some had specific requirements. Some of those with specific requirements are taught at Hogwarts and they require pewter. That's why I think pewter was specifically written on the list. bibphile From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:50:42 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 06:50:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle-born adults In-Reply-To: <20030803090042.2350.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030803135042.82887.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75048 --- Melanie Black wrote: > Would somebody please tell me why on Earth > everybody keeps saying that Tonks is a half breed. TED IS NOT > A MUGGLE! > > Tonks is no more of a half breed than Harry. She and Harry may not be 'half breeds', but they are and will never be pure blood. The muggle blood will never just disappear from their lines. If Lily had two muggle parents but ended up a wizard herself, Harry's got two wizard parents but is still basically half-muggle. In the same way, if Lily had a wizard parent and a muggle parent, Harry is 1/4 muggle. It's an admittedly crude way of figuring it up, I'm sure there are better terms to use (part-muggle doesn't make a lot of sense, per the definition of muggle). But that's how it would appear to me. You can't get rid of that heritage, it doesn't get cancelled out by the birth of a wizard child. Lisa G __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 3 13:52:29 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:52:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Solid Gold Cauldron References: Message-ID: <004b01c359c6$7ba34480$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75049 From: bibphile <<>> Some of those with specific requirements are taught at Hogwarts and they require pewter. That's why I think pewter was specifically written on the list. bibphile ------------ Pewter as a cauldron material has always worried me. I can only suppose that they are charmed in some way, as pewter will melt over a flame or other heat source that is strong enough to boil water. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silmariel at telefonica.net Sun Aug 3 14:09:34 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:09:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Number of Students (Re: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308031609.34484.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75050 > It is possible that Gryffindor and Slytherin are elite houses. Maybe > there are 1,000 students at Hogwarts and most of them are > Hufflepuffs. Just a thought. > Olaf, glad and big If there were 100+ students each year, wouldn't the Sorting ceremony be terribly long? (Say 30 seconds/boy) It doesn't seem so long in PS and GoF silmariel From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Sun Aug 3 14:12:38 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:12:38 -0000 Subject: Solid Gold Cauldron In-Reply-To: <004b01c359c6$7ba34480$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > From: bibphile > <<>> Some of those with specific requirements are taught > at Hogwarts and they require pewter. That's why I think pewter was > specifically written on the list. > > bibphile > > ------------ > > Pewter as a cauldron material has always worried me. I can only suppose that they are charmed in some way, as pewter will melt over a flame or other heat source that is strong enough to boil water. > > Dawn Now Cindy: That is interesting, I didn't know that. There is an Australian company that makes pewter jewellery for surgers, as, apparantly, it doesn't rust or tarnish when worn frequently in salt water. It looks quite nice too. -Cindy From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 14:25:25 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:25:25 -0000 Subject: Why did Harry get such a liking of Sirius to start with ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > > Del: > > Except that they have a correspondance precisely because Harry > > chooses to. He's the one who chooses to turn to Sirius instead of > > *anyone else*. > > Me: > But, Sirius has already told Harry to contact him if he needs to do > so in the note Harry receives on the train home. "If ever you need > me, let me know. Your owl will find me." Or words to that effect. > Sirius already had opened that door. > > Del: > Again, I don't see why. If I had to choose between my > > best friends, the Headmaster who's always listened to me and who is > > so wise, that old friend of my parents' who was such a good teacher > > and a good help last year, and the old friend of my parents' who > just > > spent 12 years in prison and is on the run again and showed signs > of > > not being completely right in his head, I don't think I would > choose > > the last one... > > Me: > At the beginning of GoF, Harry doesn't want to write to his friends > about his scar hurting because he knows they won't have the answers. > He considers writing to Dumbledore, but can't find a way to phrase > the letter without, he thinks, sounding like an idiot. He never > thinks of Lupin, IIRC. Maybe he can't get past the teacher-student > relationship, maybe he figures that Lupin has enough problems of his > own, who knows? Maybe JKR is simply manipulating the characters to > build evidence of a bond between Harry and Sirius for future plot > purposes. > There's a simple solution here (I think). Harry writes to Sirius because Sirius is his *godfather.* He is looking for someone who is an adult (so Ron and Hermione are out), and for someone who he can expect to feel as involved in his affairs as a parent would. This is what Sirius offers - total invovlement and commitment. He is not only formally in loco parentis, he is truly committed to fulfiling this obligation. I think this understanding goes a long way to explaining Harry's attachement to Sirius. Sure, if Sirius was totally unpleasant and horrible then Harry wouldn't have become attached. But Sirius isn't like that - even in PoA the reader (and therefore Harry) can discern that underneath the matted hair and yellowing teeth is a fine human being. For an orphan like Harry to finally have somebody on whom to lean, from whom to receive unconditional support, probably seems like a miracle. Of course Sirius immediately became an important figure in his life. He is a replacement Dad. To me, it seems completely natural. Naama Naama From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 12:48:19 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:48:19 -0000 Subject: Sirius' exit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75053 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: > > Dunno if he really died. If he did, then JRK has little respect for > him, since his death was due to his carelessness, and that's not the > way I would think he'd die. Plus, it appears that he went into the > veil alive, since he wasn't hit with an unforgivable, if I recall the > colors correctly. Somehow I think that the mirror he gave Harry will > hold some secrets for him later. JMHO. Yeah. Sirius's death sort of bothers me too. He just sort of tripped and fell and landed wrong. I've only read OotP once and I hate to sound like a heretic, but I didnt think it was that good. I liked the parts about Professor Umbridge and the corrupt Ministry of Magic and the yellow press, but overall it was kind of incoherent, I think. I was also really disappointed with the cliche "big fight scene" at the end,featuring a bunch of underdeveloped characters like Tonks. Even Ginny and Neville and Luna were confusing. There must have been 10 or 20 people in that place, all blasting away with wands. Plus the whole prophecy problem could have been solved a lot easier. I'm reading the whole series again from the beginning, maybe OotP will be better the second time around. Olaf, glad and big From shaw_steven at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 14:53:30 2003 From: shaw_steven at yahoo.com (shaw_steven) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:53:30 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75054 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepingblyx" wrote: > > > > We have had two major prophecies from Trelawney. > > > > > > In Book 3, it was predicted that Wormtail would rejoin Voldemort > > and > > > help him return to power. In Book 5, an earlier prediction was > > > revealed that implied Voldemort would be killed by Harry (real > > > unlikely that after 7 books Voldemort prevails). > > > > > > Who are the predictions coming from? > > I just spent *way* too long looking at both of these prophecies in > the books, and I notice, with all of the attention Rowling gives to > the emphasis in which things are said, it would seem that when the > prophecies are uttered, there is little word play as to the way in > which the words are stated, beyond, "Harsh, horse tones"... > > Thus, when reading them, it would seem that the words are spokent in > a monotone way.... and that if you were to type out the first > prophecy adding emphasis, it might read a bit like this: > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches." <-- > This is just a basic statement of what will happen. > > Born to those who have thrice defied _him_. <-- the obvious is > that "him" in this statement is LV... but what if the him was the > one who would kill LV? What if being "thrice defied" is what brings > the "power" out of LV's persecutor? > > "Born as the seventh month dies"... was the time of this possible > transformation, or the actual birth month of said person. > > "And the Dark Lord will mark _him_ as an equal" <--- what if "him" > was stated as in a different guy... as in "not that guy, THAT guy" > > "But _he_ will have power the Dark Lord Knows Not." <-- again, > the "HIM" was mistaken as Voldemort's great equal this whole time, > while guy #2 ("HE" in this statement) standing in the shadows really > had the power that LV didn't even know existed. > > If you wrote that out in plain english, it would be somethng to the > effect of, "The person who will defeat the Dark Lord will be defied > three times. The Dark Lord's will mistake another as his equal, but > will be defeated by someone containing a power he does not know of." > > "And either must die at the hand of the other" <-- This would allude > to the possibility that when the mystery "him" comes into being, > that Harry would not be able to survive, or vice versa. Which sets > up a nice conflict... and possibly, is it that Harry has yet to > become something else completely? > > "For niether can live while the other survives" <---Or has something > yet take over Harry's body and mind in who can defeat LV... and > would then have to "die" inside of Harry so that Harry can live? > > Or was that entire part of the prophecy simply alluding to the fact > that Harry could not live if his mother survived? (And that instance > may somehow occur again?) Steven: Okay gang, I just had an evil thought while reading this post. What if the seventh month referred to here is not the seventh month of the standard Gregorian Calendar, but another calendar? If you remember your school lessons, September used to be the Seventh month before Julius named a month for himself (July) and Augustus copied him (August). So many spells go back to the latin, why not the month names? We all know precocious know-it-all Hermione was born in September. What if she is the one spoken of in prophecy and both Neville and Harry are red herrings to protect her. Steven With tongue firmly in cheek From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Aug 3 14:55:08 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:55:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle-born adults Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75055 In a message dated 8/3/2003 2:01:19 AM Pacific Daylight Time, princessmelabela at yahoo.com writes: > Tonks is no more of a half breed than Harry. > But Harry IS a halfblood, according to JKR herself. Apparently, his mother's Muggle birth makes him a halfblood. The same would apply to Tonks. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 12:56:33 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:56:33 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone (was Re: Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > I think that would be suicidal considering Flamel has presumably > spent hundreds of years keeping the stone and himself safe from > everyone who wants wealth and immortality. Of course, that doesn't > have to stop someone from trying. But if Flamel and Dumbledore > didn't already know that someone was after the stone, going after the > Elixir would certainly set off alarms. I would hope that Voldemort > would consider this before acting rashly. > > I've been rereading the first book today, so I agree that the stone > has probably been at Gringotts for quite some time. I think the stone stays at Gringott's. Flamel keeps it there and since it's in his vault he has access to it whenever he needs it. All I'm saying is that the elixir is much less precious than the stone itself and would probably be easier to steal. Maybe when Flamel needs more elixir he and his wife go to Gringott's and brew up the elixir right in the vault and drink it on the spot. Olaf, glad and big Oops, just thought of something else. Dumbledore says he has enough elixir to give him time to get his affairs in order, so he must keep some stashed somewhere. Olaf From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Aug 3 14:56:54 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:56:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Favorite Lines Message-ID: <14d.224d1741.2c5e7cb6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75057 In a message dated 8/3/2003 4:25:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ivierska at hotmail.com writes: > "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at how he > treats his inferiors, not his equals."(p.525, GoF) And how telling is THAT, given how Sirius treats Kreacher in OotP? Doesn't put him in a very good light, now, does it? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:50:18 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 13:50:18 -0000 Subject: Portraits - Additional: Actors Playing a Role In-Reply-To: <20030803131749.58950.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75058 Steve: > Portraits are actors in two senses; they are playing the role of the person in the portrait and the are playing the role OF a portrait...-------------- owlery2003: > Interesting theory, but I tend to think the "real person" is somehow represented (and not by an "actor"). In DD's office, we see the former headmasters, and I can't imagine they are anyone other than the "real" thing. No idea how it happens (magic!), but their reactions/actions don't suggest anything other. Phineas Nigellus is a good example, as he turns from the snippy, dark headmaster-character to the concerned distant relative when he learns that Sirius is dead. My two knuts! I think I remember something in OotP that said that all the former headmaster's portraits are honor bound to help whoever is the current headmaster. Olaf, glad and big > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 3 15:02:28 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 3 Aug 2003 15:02:28 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1059922948.39.24276.m15@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75059 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, August 3, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Aug 3 15:05:42 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 11:05:42 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peck of Owls Message-ID: <49.31c314ff.2c5e7ec6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75060 In a message dated 8/3/2003 4:36:20 AM Pacific Daylight Time, biggladolaf at yahoo.com writes: > I don't think a group of owls is called a parliament. There is a poem > by Chaucer called "The Parliament of Fowles". Maybe that's what > you're thinking of. 'Tis. Check this website: Animal Congregations, or What Do You Call a Group Of.....? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 14:10:24 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:10:24 -0000 Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > Yep. I just checked it out and you are absolutely correct. The book > says 20 brooms. I totally agree that Harry ought to know the names > of the Slytherins, at least the one's in his year. > > Allyson > > I agree that Harry should know, but he doesn't. His herbology class > is the same size and we saw at the beggining of OotP that he either > doesn't know or isn't sure or severasl of their names. Harry > doesn't seem to bother to learn the names of people unless they > associate with him somehow. Being in the same class just ins't > enough. Maybe it's because he's got alot going on and doesn't have > time. Or maybe it's because as a kid im muggle-school none of the > other students wanted anything to do with him so he just gor used to > never reaching out. I don't think we've ever seen him start a > converation with someone new. They've either introduced > themselves,like Ron, or been introduced to him, like Oliver. > > bibphile The Gryffindors in Harry's year that we have heard of are Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Dean, Seamus, Parvati Patil and Lavender Brown (interesting name, by the way, Lavender Brown.) That is eight. So at most there are 12 Slytherins in his year. That's not very many names to learn. Even if he never talked to them he would at least know their names. My high school class had 500 people in it. I didnt know them all, but i knew their names. Olaf, glad and big From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 14:13:21 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:13:21 -0000 Subject: Solid Gold Cauldron In-Reply-To: <004b01c359c6$7ba34480$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75062 Dawn: > Pewter as a cauldron material has always worried me. I can only suppose that they are charmed in some way, as pewter will melt over a flame or other heat source that is strong enough to boil water. Hahahahahahaha! Thats probably why cauldron thickness is such an important issue;-) Olaf, glad and big > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 12:27:48 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:27:48 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75063 > Harry may not become an Auror, but to become a quidditch player would > be a waste of his talents and a litterary dead-end. The justification > of "taking it easy" is not fitting to Harrys character, he has too > much of a protective attitude towards people and a feeling of > responsability than to completely isolate himself in a profession of > no importance. He is made for greater things. There was something very "Sign up for the Army!" about the whole choosing of a career scene. I think that Harry has always worked a bit "outside the box" and his career will not be a conventional one that they have printed a pretty pamphlet up for. An Auror to me seems very Queens Guard or even FBI, and I think they will be distancing him from quidditch in the books to come. He's always seemed like someone who would be off to discover things...great mysteries... make his own rules, find his own truths, and possibly write books about it. "Blyx" From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 12:50:18 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:50:18 -0000 Subject: Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75064 > I think that would be suicidal considering Flamel has presumably > spent hundreds of years keeping the stone and himself safe from > everyone who wants wealth and immortality. Of course, that doesn't > have to stop someone from trying. Which brings the "Is Flamel an actual wizard? discussion full circle, and opens a new question: Could a "muggle" who had discovered, or suddenly somehow aquired the ability to do any magic (even if it were only Alchemy)be permitted to exist in the WW? Obviously Flamel couldn't have sat around the MW for 600 years with no muggle taking notice. He would have depended upon magic to keep those form stealing it from him. It is mentioned in the link followed from the Potter Lexicon about Flamel that his wife was noted for being about to keep a secret to her very death. Possibly J.K noted this info and the wife was his secret-keeper, which is why no one was able to take the stone. Maybe with the upset LV had caused, and even in his "death" there was a kind of a "We must make safe anything he could use to come back to life!" campaign... similar to the raids on houses for Dark Arts items. The PS, something so known to wizards that it is mentioned on a chocolate frog card, was an obvious thing to lock up. "Blyx" From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sun Aug 3 13:44:59 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:44:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hoping against disappointment in Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75065 Karen said: I originally thought that Chamber of Secrets advanced the story line less than the other books. Now that I've reread it and all the rest of the series, I see that there was a lot more revealed and advanced than I originally thought. Joj says: Besides the poly juice, what is it that you saw revealed? I can?t think of much. Werewolves were mentioned often, but nothing to really give us a clue that the next DADA would be one. Other people have mentioned all the clues in COS, but I just haven?t been able to see them. I need some help. :-) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT click here ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 15:16:35 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:16:35 -0000 Subject: Order of the Phoenix Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75066 Okay. Call me a heretic. I didn't think OotP was all that good. The whole prophecy thing didn't make any sense, first of all. Why not just have Harry go down and get it? That way Voldemort couldn't get it. The Order wasted a lot of time with this silly 'round the clock guard project. Also, Sirius's death was a major dissapointment. He basically tripped and fell down in the wrong place. The big fight scene at the end came across like the ending of some crummy action movie. There were 10 or 20 people in there blasting each other with wands. Total cliche. I hope JKR hasnt gone Hollywood on us. I'm reading the whole series again in order. Maybe OotP will be better next time around. Olaf, glad and big From eris1313 at msn.com Sun Aug 3 15:43:16 2003 From: eris1313 at msn.com (eris1313) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 15:43:16 -0000 Subject: Muggle matches (Was Re: Muggle-born adults) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75067 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > Can't offer any theories I'm afraid, but this is something I've > been wondering about myself. I remember in one of the books someone > (Hagrid? Ron?) tells Harry that the MoM's main job is keeping it > from muggles that there are wizards in the country. If true, it's a > wonder they are able to manage it considering how ignorant most people > seem to be about the non-magical world. I shudder to think what they are > teaching in that Muggle Studies course. > > I recall a number of occasions while reading the books where I > wondered aloud, "how stupid are these wizards?!!" You'd think one > of them could use magic to conjure a public library card. Or, you > know, just take a look around!! I can't think of any reason why the > muggle world should be so mysterious. It's not exactly a secret. > > As to how muggle/wizard relationships get started, I can't imagine. > Of course, the one that freaks me out is Hagrid's parents' muggle > on giant romance. What the hell?!! Ick. Ick Ick Ick. > > > Allyson Portia's 2 knuts: I would assume that most muggle/witch or wizard matches would involve witches or wizards that have some muggle ancestry. If one has muggles in his/her family, he/she would just by default have greater experience with the muggle world (like Hermione and Harry), and also would have contact with other muggles (that may be romantic prospects) through the family. As far as Hagrid's parents go (not that the picture is any more pleasant), wasn't Hagrid's dad a wizard? Portia (who should be hanging wallpaper right now--yikes!!) From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Sun Aug 3 15:52:03 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 17:52:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Ron/Hermione - What's the attraction? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F2D2FA3.8020301@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 75068 Charlie Moody wrote (2003-08-02 20:19): >On Saturday, August 2, 2003, at 07:09 AM, Przemyslaw Plaskowicki wrote: > > > >>samnanya wrote (2003-08-02 03:39): >> >> >>>The first and most significant wedge is Ron becoming prefect instead >>>of Harry. Hermione's glee when she sees Harry holding the badge and >>>thinking that it was Harry that became the prefect was brilliantly >>>shown >>>by JKR in her shrieking reaction and the simple line "Me too, Harry, >>>me too!" >>> >>>The sheer joy she expresses in those five words is amazing. She is >>>VERY disappointed when she finds out that it is Ron instead of Harry. >>> >>> > >[ Nicely-done recap of the "Prefect-Confusion incident" ] >[ by Pshemekan, deleted ] > > > >>Pshemekan: >>Nope, no disapointment here. >> >> > >Really? You've done a marvellous job of detailing the progress >of the scene; Hermione went straight from unbridled delight to >absolute mortification (a totally natural transition, IMO), just as >you've laid out - but your insistence that her delight contained no >joy @ sharing something special w/ Harry seems to contradict the >plain meaning of the text. By the same token, claiming that her >embarrassment @ having just stuck both feet in her mouth *does >not* obscure any disappointment at Harry not being made Prefect >*because*she*feels*none*...well, it seems both arbitrary and >unfounded in light of the passage itself.. > I respectfuly disagree. I'm afraid I can't see anything like that. I don't however deny, that such feeling might exist. > >In other words, I think you're inserting your desires (ie, for R/H >SHIP) into the text, not finding a basis such a relationship there. > > > No disrespect, but I think you are doing just the same. In fact, I'm sure everybody on this list is doing the same. JKR's original text is being filtered by our desires, experiences, age, sex, cultural differences etc. >>I respectfully submit this to be a pro R/H moment. Especially >>Hermione's >>defence of Ron. >> >> [...] > >I'm really sorry, I'm NOT trying to be difficult or argumentative here - >but I just don't see what you're basing your conclusions on. Unless >you believe that "not getting along" = "true love", absolutely and >always; that might explain the tendency for the R/H crowd to cite >every instance of friction between the two as if it was proof of their >destiny together. It would also explain the success of Jerry Springer, >but that's a different conversation. > >I have some experience w/ dating behaviours and It's just not true >that quibbling, quarreling and bickering always indicate sexual >tension / attraction / hidden desires. When such feelings are >present the verbal interplay is quite different, and the reactions >to such exchanges are fairly distinct, and easy to recognise. JKR >has put nothing of the sort on paper as between Ron & Hermione. >Their verbal exchanges, their opinions regarding each other, their >attitudes about life & themselves, & their general dissimilarities, as >presented on the page by JKR, are entirely inconsistent with the >fundamental premise of Ron and Hermione as a likely match. > [...] > >I didn't come into this with the notion that Harry & Hermione ought to >end up together; I just read the books; and when I first encountered >the R/H hypothesis, I was puzzled, because I could recall nothing in >the books to support it. The more I've looked looked into it, and the >more I've read the arguments for and against R/H, the more convinced >I've become that it simply has no basis in the canon. > >In the interests of fairness, here's the firmest argument I've heard, >pro >R/H: Ron makes Hermione laugh, and Harry doesn't. I haven't > checked this out for myself, so I can't vouch for it, but I acknowledge >that a shared sense of humour is an important thing in a relationship. >Even so, this point (if true) would be more an obstacle to H/H, not a >boost to R/H, given their near-total incompatibility. > >The R/H SHIP, in SHIPping terms, is little more than a walnut-shell >half, holding a toothpick, anchored in wax, to which has been taped >a tiny, tiny flag - adrift on the wide, wide sea. Only its lack of >substance >allows it to remain afloat. > >I stand, as always, ready to listen to any argument that derives from >JKR's text and does not fly in the face of observable human behaviour. > > I'm affraid you are not seeing that yours notions about relationships are not necessarily the same as others. I've so many pairs, that under my consideration should not works, and yet they works. Love does not only is blind, it is also deaf. While for you R/H is unbelivable, is it possible for me. Humans are so complicated that in fact any possible behaviour is observable. In fact for me bickering is a normal part of relationship and I hate when my partner is agreeing with me - I just love discussions. Apparently the same is between Ron/Hermione -- they must like bickering, otherwise they wouldn't engage in those so frequently. If people are not getting along they are avoiding themselves. Harry hates when they bickers, and often says this aloud: : 'Oh, shut up, the pair of you,' said Harry heavily, as Ron opened his mouth to argue back. Hermione and Ron both froze, looking angry and offended. 'Can't you give it a rest?' said Harry. 'You're always having a go at each other, it's driving me mad.' And abandoning his shepherd's pie, he swung his schoolbag back over his shoulder and left them sitting there. Look, Hermione & Ron look offended -- they enjoy their bickering. The statement that they are not getting along is not true. Inter-human behaviour is deeply complicated. Spoken words, only partly define what humans really feel. Important factor is body language, and what people are actually doing, not saying. While Ron seems to verbally object to anything than Hermione does, he often follows her advice. Hermione knows, that their verbal bickering is only superficial: 'Hermione, you are honestly the most wonderful person I've ever met,' said Ron weakly, 'and if I'm ever rude to you again -' '- I'll know you're back to normal,' said Hermione. While their speach speaks to the contrary, their deeds are confirming their deep friendship: Ron overcoming his arachnophobia for Hermione, Hermione devising a scheme to distract Ron to not to notice "Weasley - King" badges. What are therefore basic premises for R/H ship? 1. Ron & Hermione are friends. 2. Ron has romantic interest with Hermione. Both facts are undeniable. I understand that it is only theory that those premises _must_ lead to romance. Yours arguments howevers are in fact against premise no. 1. As a side note, I belive that love = friendship + sex. There can't be love without friendship. Also it is similarities that makes friendships. "Do not choose for your wife any woman you would not choose as your friend if she were a man." -- Joseph Joubert Regards, -- Pshemekan From music4masses at earthlink.net Sun Aug 3 15:56:57 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (Erin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 08:56:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803085133.00b91a90@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75069 At 09:21 AM 8/3/2003 +0000, you wrote: >It would just seem weird to me. I don't know, maybe Lupin could be someone >like that. I suspect he will take over Sirius' god-parenting duties to >some extent. I still couldn't picture Harry crying on his shoulder though. >Allyson > > Hmmm. Maybe Lupin will cry on Harry's. I would think that might be a scenario that helps both of them. Might even liberate Harry emotionally. He wouldn't feel so alone and isolated. Just a thought, but it seems possible. Erin From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 12:27:23 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 12:27:23 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > I think that this interpretation is new. > > Right. The Prophecy: > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to > those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and > the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have a power the > Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for > neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to > vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... > > all the difficulty is "but he will have a power > the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other > for neither can live while the other survives.." > > Trying to sort out the 'either, neither, other' is the key. Now, the > assumption has been that this passage refers to Harry and Voldemort > *only*. Why should it? Two other people have already been referred to > in the Prophecy, why not again? > > "born to those" refers to the Potters or the Longbottoms, according to > the birthdates of Harry and Neville. Now insert some names, fitting the > existing canon, into that bit of the Prophecy. > > "but he will have a power Voldemort knows not, and either Harry or > Voldemort must die at the hand of the other for neither James nor Lily > can live while Harry survives". > > > > Comments please! > > Kneasy Okay. Comments. It's just crummy style, first of all. "The other" should be referring to the same person both times. Also, if it is reffering to James and Lily the second time it should be "the others". I dont like it. Of course, crummy style is a time honored device in prophecy and divination. . . Olaf, glad and big From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 16:17:15 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 09:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: <14d.224d1741.2c5e7cb6@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030803161715.21013.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75071 --- MadameSSnape at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/3/2003 4:25:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > ivierska at hotmail.com writes: > > > "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at > how he > > treats his inferiors, not his equals."(p.525, GoF) > > And how telling is THAT, given how Sirius treats Kreacher in > OotP? Doesn't > put him in a very good light, now, does it? > > Sherrie I don't think anyone (other than Hermione) can blame Sirius for his treatment of Kreacher. If anything, I think Sirius was humane in the fact that he didn't dismiss, maim, dismbowel, or otherwise harm Kreacher by now. Besides, Kreacher dishes out the insults and snipes with the best of them, it's only fair that Sirius hand some back :o) Lisa G __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 16:27:20 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:27:20 -0000 Subject: Peck of Owls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > --- Olaf: > I don't think a group of owls is called a parliament. There is a poem > by Chaucer called "The Parliament of Fowles". Maybe that's what > you're thinking of. > Olaf, glad and big Me: C S Lewis in "the Silver Chair" - one of the Narnia books has a chapter called "A Parliament of Owls".... From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Sun Aug 3 16:31:19 2003 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:31:19 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ohyeah0121" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dcyasser" > wrote: I would like to know more about DD's defeat of > Grindelwald > > and hope JKR shares it with us. Because Hermione hasn't quoted it > to > > us from a history book (yet) I wonder if it is public knowledge: > how > > did Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald? It had to have been a > monumental > > moment in wizarding history, yet DD is not obviously scarred, a > > la Moody; he is sane, if whimsical; he has obviously been able to > > lead a productive and healthy life following that confrontation > and > > victory, and he is certainly in possesion of his powers, enough to > > make LV tremble in his booties. Early on in the series he does > have > > Fudge calling on him constantly for advice, and he doe head up > both > > incarnations of the Order, but otherwise he seems to live the > > balanced, even somewhat serene headmaster ife, even if he is the > > greatest sorcerer in the world. We tend to imagine Harry post-LV > as > > either dead, scarred, without magic, estranged from the magical > > world; or just really unhappy. Yet we and Harry have to look at DD > > as a role model in evil-wizard-battling; perhaps DD was even > > prophesied to defeat Grindelwald, we don't know. But I expect more > > exposition on DD's personal history as a guidepost for what Harry > > may or may not be able to accomplish vs LV, and as to what the > > personal cost of it may be to Harry. Does it have to end with > Harry > > destroyed, literally or figuratively, or does DD have other > tricks > > up his sleeve to mentor Harry? > > cheers > > dc > > Harry is quiet used to being treated as a freak, a curiosity, and is > too famous to make a good Auro. So I suspect he will come the new > defence against the dark arts, at the end of book seven. He did > enjoy his DA classes and see Lupin as the best teacher. I think he > is destined to become the next great wizardfollowing in Dumbledores > foot steps. I doubt it. When Dumbledore defeat Grindelwald, he was about or over 100 years old. He got many life experiences and was very advanced in his knowledge with magic. On the contrary, Harry is a teenage and was raised in an emotionally abused family. Deprived of love at his childlihood, forced to fight for his life at school, and shouldered with a mission that is too big for him at such tender age, Harry is on a path to a tragic hero, rather than a wise old man. After all, that's my thought only. Angel From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 16:33:08 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:33:08 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, In-Reply-To: <004d01c3581b$1bc40ba0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75074 Dawn wrote re: Snape's hair: Snape has put a lot of effort into his appearance. His walk and style of dressing are cultivated to intimidate and keep people at a distance, his way of talking and body language likewise. Me(Ginger) I snipped a lot of stuff wondering why Snape would have hair like that if he could do anything about it. I think Dawn hit the nail on the head. Assuming Snape could do something about it, maybe he keeps it like that to further his "untouchable" aura. Intimidation and repulsion seems to me to be a good combination for keeping people at bay. Maybe I should try it in real life, Ginger From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 3 16:35:25 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:35:25 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Solid Gold Cauldron References: Message-ID: <005501c359dd$3eb37a60$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75075 From: Cindy <> "That is interesting, I didn't know that. There is an Australian company that makes pewter jewellery for surgers, as, apparantly, it doesn't rust or tarnish when worn frequently in salt water. It looks quite nice too. -Cindy ----------- I was about to reply that this is only true if it is the leadfree type, which is the only kind legal to use in Britain these days as the lead can be transfered by touch (and the vapour while molten), when a thought hit me. What if pewter is used in it's traditional form and isn't leadfree in the WW. Doing a search on lead poisoning, I discovered that low level lead poisoning can produce, amongst other possible symptoms, anaemia (sallow, pale complexion), loss of appetite, mood shifts such as aggression or depression, and insomnia, as well as problems like (paraphrased from a case study) - Sunlight seemed dazzling - must always be on their guard - People deceived them all the time - Thoughts crowd into the mind too rapidly for discussion - had little respect for theirself - skin was very sensitive - bothered by murderous ideas - loathed people who touched them - Without their work they would be nothing - felt lost in a crowd The lead can also be laid down in the hair and bones, including the teeth, possibly affecting their outward appearance. Sound like any Potions Masters we know? Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 16:51:30 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:51:30 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75076 I don't know if this helps or not, but the question has been brought up in this thread as to whether or not OWLS count or only grades or both and, if it is only OWLS, why is Snape giving out grades. (That has to be my worst example of sentance structure in my life) It was also questioned whether Snape and/or Harry knew this. I remembered reading something and have finally found it. US edition p. 509: "I have awarded you the grades you would have received if you presented this work in your OWL" "This should give you a realistic idea of what to expect in your examination." Both quotes are from Snape. (same paragraph, some snipping) True, this only reflects the homework portion of the class, but it does show why he is giving grades. I'm sure there was something said about only OWLS counting. I am still looking, and will let you know if I find anything. As to whether Snape's picking on Harry is fair or not: As my little Godson said to Annikin as we watched SWII, "Life's not fair, so grow up and deal with it." One of his mother's favourite expressions. And he was only six. Take care all, Ginger From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 17:16:50 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Core Meltdown for Snape & New Teachers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803171650.19021.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75077 --- Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > > Does Snape know that Harry has been giving private > tutorials in DADA? > bboy_mn: > > Well, you certainly have a point. To Snape, it would > seem like the > ultimate extension of Potter arrogance. > > But how about this for an alternative scenario, a > situation that might > bring Snape's 'cauldron' from a boil back down to a > simmer. > So who better to be the Defense Art Club faculty > advisor than the new > Defense Against Dark Art teacher, none other than > Professor Severus > Snape. How's that for a plot twist? > That would be an awesome plot twist, but I just don't see JKR doing that. Like said in other posts, Dumbledore would not place Snape in a position to teach children to defend from Voldemort. As bad as Snape is, he has his standards and would not made the DADA class so easy that students would not learn. If Dumbeldore denied Snape when the only alternative was to take a Ministry offical as DADA teacher, then there is little reason he would place Snape now. I do think that if the club were to actually start up, Snape would be placed as club counciler. ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 17:19:46 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 17:19:46 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75078 I'm doing the bad here and replying to myself, but I realized just how badly my quote was out of context and wanted to clarify before 10000 or so of my closest friends came at me with flames :-) I had said: > As to whether Snape's picking on Harry is fair or not: As my little > Godson said to Annikin as we watched SWII, "Life's not fair, so grow > up and deal with it." One of his mother's favourite expressions. > And he was only six. I was referring here to the whole "it's not fair" attitude as expressed by Annikin in SW and by Harry through much of OoP. Snape's grading is a whole 'nother kettle of fish. He needs to give accurate grades for Harry to be able to judge how well or poorly he is doing. The picking on Harry is what Harry has to learn to deal with. Sorry if I got anyone's goat. My brain went much faster than my fingers. Bad Ginger, Bad, Bad Ginger. > Take care all, Ginger From marosifig at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 17:35:33 2003 From: marosifig at yahoo.com (marosifig) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 17:35:33 -0000 Subject: Harry, Voldemort, eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75079 I noticed a strange thing: Harry has green eyes, (Slytherin?s colour) and Voldemort has red eyes, which is Gryffindor?s colour. Didn?t JKR say that the colour of eyes would play a large part in later plots? What do you think? Marosifig From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 17:42:49 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 17:42:49 -0000 Subject: Students names (was:Re: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: me (bibphile): I agree that Harry should know, but he doesn't. His herbology class is the same size and we saw at the beggining of OotP that he either doesn't know or isn't sure or severasl of their names. Harry doesn't seem to bother to learn the names of people unless they associate with him somehow. Being in the same class just ins't enough. Maybe it's because he's got alot going on and doesn't have time. Or maybe it's because as a kid im muggle-school none of the other students wanted anything to do with him so he just gor used to never reaching out. I don't think we've ever seen him start a converation with someone new. They've either introduced hemselves,like Ron, or been introduced to him, like Oliver. Olaf: >The Gryffindors in Harry's year . . . That is eight. So at most there are 12 Slytherins in his year. That's not very many names to learn. Even if he never talked to them he would at least know their names. > Olaf, glad and big > I would agree. Except for one thing. There are only 20 people in his hebology class and we've seen that he doesn't know their names. Whay should he know the names of the 12 Slytherin if he doesn't know the 12 Hufflepuff? It doesn't matter how many names you or I know. Harry doesn't know the names. We saw that specifically in OotP. It also said that Hermione had to tell Harry who Theodore Nott was (even though Nott is in his year and, I assume, his potions class). bibphile From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 3 17:53:44 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:53:44 +0100 Subject: That damn Prophesy - an alternative take Message-ID: <6CF81502-C5DB-11D7-9B06-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75081 Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. Most discouraging. Here I am knocking my pipes out to try and sort out the Prophesy and what do I get? One doesn't trust Dumbledore, one doesn't trust Dumbledore *or* JKR and a third doesn't like the literary style of the prophesy. Why did I get up this morning? The literary style of the Prophesy I can do little about. The other two, well I did specify that the Prophecy be accurate and complete; maybe you missed that bit. Despite the lukewarm (freezing cold!) reception, I'm going to stick to this. For one thing, it means that James and Lily *must* die if Harry is to survive; that we can forget all those dubious ideas about switching spells that adorned the site a few weeks back, and to please the Siriophiles, it didn't matter that Sirius passed on the Secret Keeper responsibility. Unless James and Lily die, Harry is not protected. Also, Dumbledore knew in advance that either the Potters or the Longbottoms were going to cop it in the neck. The only drawback? I quite fancied Neville as a late runner coming up on the inside until I thought up this one. Kneasy Disgruntled and feeling unloved From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 17:55:51 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 10:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Voldemort, eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803175551.6686.qmail@web40210.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75082 --- marosifig wrote: > I noticed a strange thing: Harry has green eyes, (Slytherins > colour) > and Voldemort has red eyes, which is Gryffindors colour. > Didnt JKR > say that the colour of eyes would play a large part in later > plots? > What do you think? > Marosifig What stood out for me is the mention that Harry has Lily's eyes - one of the main themes of the musical "The Secret Garden" (by Lucy Simon) is that Mary, the orphaned girl, has the eyes of her aunt Lily. (Brief synopsis: Mary's mother, Rose, her father, and all their friends are wiped out by cholera. Mary, alone, goes to live with her only remaining family, her uncle Archibald [uncle through marriage]. Her aunt Lily died some years ago, after giving birth to a disabled child named Colin. Lily's relationship with her husband, Archibald, was scorned - Archibald was a cranky old hunchback, and his brother Neville thought he was MUCH better suited for Lily. Neville stayed in the shadows as Colin's doctor, keeping close to the situation and trying to convince Archibald he should leave the country and find somewhere he won't be tormented by Lily's memory.) The impact of the eyes is chronicled in a very moving duet called "Lily's Eyes," where Archibald and Neville sing about how they're both haunted by Mary's presence. Anyhow, it might be entirely unintentional, but whenever I hear the comment about how Harry has his mothers' eyes, that song won't stop playing in my head for hours. Lisa G, on a tangent and enjoying it __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 3 18:00:23 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:00:23 -0000 Subject: Muggle matches (Was Re: Muggle-born adults) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75083 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: > It has just occurred to me to start wondering about this... How do > so many wizards actually *meet* Muggles and socialise enough with > them to get married? . . .So who are these witches and wizards who > mingle with Muggles? > > > Many of the wiches and wizards that marry muggles are probably > muggle-born. They still associate with their families. A muggle- > born which might occassinonaly go out to a muggle club or party > with her sister and meet some one there. Or one of her parents > neighbors may drop by to borrow something while she's there and > start flirting with her. The same rules might apply with actual > (literal) half-bloods. I agree that the muggle-born wizards and witches have a lot to do with it, but not that they're the main ones to marry Muggles. I'm thinking that the Muggle-born make friends at Hogwarts and the friends could visit each other's homes, so the wizard-born friend could meet his Muggle-born friend's Muggle sister. When a wizard-born marries a Muggle-born (or a Muggle), the two families would mingle at weddings and baby's birthday parties and Christmas, creating more opportunites for the wizard-born spouse's sister's son to meet the Muggle-born spouse's brother's daughter. Perhaps Seamus's father was the school friend of Seamus's mother's muggle-born witch House-mate's Muggle brother ... the Muggle brother knows his sister is a witch but is forbidden by wizarding secrecy to tell his friend so. The wizarding folk with connections with Muggle in-laws would know more about the Muggle world than Arthur and similar clueless purebloods, would know enough that they could get jobs or whatever in the Muggle world if they wanted to. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 3 18:09:05 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:09:05 -0000 Subject: Inferior Kreachur (was: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: <20030803161715.21013.qmail@web40209.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75084 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > --- Madame Sherrie Snape at a... wrote: > > ivierska at h... writes: > > > "If you want to know what a man's like, take a good look at > > > how he treats his inferiors, not his equals."(p.525, GoF) > > And how telling is THAT, given how Sirius treats Kreacher in > > OotP? Doesn't put him in a very good light, now, does it? > > I don't think anyone (other than Hermione) can blame Sirius for > his treatment of Kreacher. If anything, I think Sirius was > humane in the fact that he didn't dismiss, maim, dismbowel, or > otherwise harm Kreacher by now. Besides, Kreacher dishes out the > insults and snipes with the best of them, it's only fair that > Sirius hand some back :o) I got a strong feeling of something like 'sibling rivalry' between Sirius and Kreachur. Like Sirius was reacting to Kreachur as if Kreachur were Regulus, the favored son. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 3 18:19:38 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:19:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle born adults References: <1059870965.4107.17967.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002101c359eb$cced5b80$ad516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 75085 Faith's Girl: >This made me wonder if there might not be a reason for this. Were >huge numbers of muggle-borns killed or frightened back into hiding in >the muggle world by Voldemort, leaving the wizard world with a >shortage? Is prejudice so entrenched in wizarding society that it's >hard to get a job without a Name? Do muggle-borns just tend to drift >back into muggle society and find jobs there? Do they tend to take >new names and forge new habits to blend in? JKR has said in interviews a. that around 25% of Hogwarts students are Muggle-born b. that there are 1000 students at Hogwarts Accepting both of those statements for the moment, and assuming (as is logical) that _all_ Muggle borns get a Hogwarts invitation, because the WW wouldn't want half skilled wizards roaming about with no knowledge of how the WW works, that would mean that there are around 36 children with magical abilities born to Muggle (or presumably half-Muggle) families each year. That's a very small number, compared to the total number of children born in these islands each year. If, as many of us surmise, only a proportion of WW children go to Hogwarts, it means that Muggle borns are also a very small proportion of children in the WW also, which in turn means that it's not so surprising that we haven't heard of many of them. It's also possible that, as you suggest, because the pure blood families are all more or less interrelated, that it's less easy for Muggle borns to get a high status job in the WW because there is so much string pulling and family connection involved - not to mention more than a little prejudice. Perhaps their lack of visibility is a combination of all these factors Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 3 18:28:40 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:28:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Owls References: <1059882747.5923.95272.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002801c359ed$105912a0$ad516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 75086 Catlady: >Is a "peck" the right word for a group of owls? I looked up 'peck' on >One-Look Dictionary and didn't found any mention of a group word for >owls (and don't have a personal copy of An Exultation of Larks to Try here http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/murder.html where it says that the correct word is a parliament of owls or a wisdom of owls. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Aug 3 18:30:34 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:30:34 -0000 Subject: Harry, Voldemort, eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marosifig" wrote: > I noticed a strange thing: Harry has green eyes, (Slytherin?s colour) > and Voldemort has red eyes, which is Gryffindor?s colour. Didn?t JKR > say that the colour of eyes would play a large part in later plots? > What do you think? I haven't read interviews with JKR, so I'm not sure if she said that eye *colour* is the important thing, or just *eyes*. After all the talk about how Harry has Lily's eyes, seeing her in the OotP makes me think that Rowling might not have been talking about physical eyes, but she may be speaking metaphorically. I think Harry will come to see *through* Lily's eyes, and see the world as she did. >From the glimpse in the Pensieve, I think she has compassion even for the unlovely. I mean, she was in 5th year too, she'd have known who Snape was, and all about his unsavoury interest in the Dark Arts, as well as James did. But when she saw him being victimized, she had compassion, and tried to help, even though she got nothing for it. I think Harry will become more like Lily, because at the moment, he's a lot more like James - a sort of "action man", wanting to leap up and DO SOMETHING at every moment, not to mention having a lot of negative feelings like rage and hate bubbling inside. His talk with Luna at the end of the year was typical - his first thought was to criticize the students who took her things, and next he offered to help her round them up. She didn't take either route, though - she just accepted the odd facts of her life, and calmly trusted that people would do the right thing on their own, without someone having to do anything to make them. I think it was good that he started to see some value in her very different approach to problems. Wanda From MagRig13 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 18:40:56 2003 From: MagRig13 at aol.com (american_pie8887) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:40:56 -0000 Subject: Luna and Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75088 I was reading a quote about Lupin and it was Peeves calling him "Loony loopy Lupin" (somewhere in PoA, can't remember the page number) but i just found that to be very interesting, because i'm not mistaken, Luna is often called "loony" or "loopy" any thoughts? ~~Mags From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 3 18:40:43 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 19:40:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle matches References: <1059910781.13897.47784.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003501c359ee$bee25ba0$ad516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 75089 Allyson: >muggles that there are wizards in the country. If true, it's a wonder >they are able to manage it considering how ignorant most people seem >to be about the non-magical world. I shudder to think what they are >teaching in that Muggle Studies course. What they're teaching, I think, is WW _perceptions_ of the Muggle world - how it looks to them. I suspect that a lot of Muggle born students sign up for the subject thinking it's going to be really easy but then find that they are completely lost in a sea of fellytones and pleasemen, not to mention the fact that a lot of things that we take as natural in our world would seem totally irrational to the WW. >I recall a number of occasions while reading the books where I >wondered aloud, "how stupid are these wizards?!!" You'd think one of >them could use magic to conjure a public library card. Or, you know, >just take a look around!! I can't think of any reason why the muggle >world should be so mysterious. It's not exactly a secret. But where would they start? It's not as if you can go into a library and find a book called "An Introduction to the Muggle World for Wizards" (though I suspect that there's an equivalent for Muggle born students who arrive in the WW). And would wizards even _want_ to? Do most of them _care_ about how Muggles live? Arthur does, but he seems to be very much the exception. >As to how muggle/wizard relationships get started, I can't imagine. >Of course, the one that freaks me out is Hagrid's parents' muggle on >giant romance. What the hell?!! Ick. Ick Ick Ick. When they were nose to nose, he hid his toes. When they were toes to toes, he hid his nose! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 18:50:23 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:50:23 -0000 Subject: Muggle matches In-Reply-To: <003501c359ee$bee25ba0$ad516751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: Allyson: I shudder to think what they are teaching in that Muggle Studies course. Ffred: What they're teaching, I think, is WW _perceptions_ of the Muggle world - how it looks to them. I suspect that a lot of Muggle born students sign up for the subject thinking it's going to be really easy but then find that they are completely lost in a sea of fellytones and pleasemen, not to mention the fact that a lot of things that we take as natural in our world would seem totally irrational to the WW. me (bibphile): Why don't they get a muggle-born to teach muggle-studies. They understanf the muggle world and by the time they finish Hogwarts, they understand the wizarding world too. Isn't there even one muggle-born who'd like to teach the subject. I also think the muggle studies class is a little better than that. Hermione got 350% on her exam and she never once complained of the teacher getting things wrong. And she would. I think Arthur and many other wizards just have a problem with words that sound alike. After all, it's easy to forget a word you don't use more than once a year. I think Arthur had the basic idea of how to use a telephone, he just got the name wrong. Besides, we don't know when Hogwarts started offering muggle studies. Some of the older wizard might not have had the opportunity to take it (and many other chose not too). bibphile From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 19:14:33 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle-born adults In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030803191433.40995.qmail@web20712.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75091 Sherrie wrote: But Harry IS a halfblood, according to JKR herself. Apparently, his mother's Muggle birth makes him a halfblood. The same would apply to Tonks. Sherrie My reply: JKR did say that you are right it was dumb wording. I'm just irritated with everyone trying to make theories about Tonks and her muggle father..when Tonks' father is a wizard. But I agree that their muggle heritage can't be denied. ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 19:26:34 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:26:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elixir of life References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75092 Olaf, glad and big: I am not sure that alchemy is magic. It does not seem to be on the curriculum at Hogwarts. Dan: Actually, alchemy is magic. Quite. Here's a couple resources: http://www.levity.com/alchemy/home.html http://www.ambix.org/ Alchemy is not so much akin to potions (which is like magical chemistry--brewing up magical liquids) as it is a cross between potions and transfiguration and charms if it does exist in the Potterverse... they try to turn iron to gold, make perpetual fires, etc. In our world, alchemists see it as more spiritual; that is, spiritual change reflected by real-world symbols. : Levity.com: In alchemy, each of its steps or phases, represents not only a interior awakening (initiation), but also a physical, practical technique performed in the laboratory. The physical, laboratory work becomes a means of verifying spiritual and psychic expansions in consciousness. "Alchemy is an initiatic system in which you have no delusions. It is the only initiatic path where there is an objective control in the laboratory. So if your experiment shows you've gone beyond the ordinary material laws of the universe, it shows that you're an alchemist that has had an interior awakening, and that corresponds to the rule which says, 'You will transmute nothing if you have not transmuted yourself first.' Says Jean Dubuis, founder and first president of the French alchemical organization, The Philosophers of Nature. All for now, Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 19:33:51 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:33:51 -0000 Subject: Elixir of life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75093 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > wrote: > > > > Nicholas Flamel is an alchemist. That's Magic; therefore he's a > > wizard. > > I am not sure that alchemy is magic. It does not seem to be on the > curriculum at Hogwarts. Also, during the time of muggle persecution > of the WW, alchemists were left alone and actually respected. > Olaf, glad and big I see what you're saying now. I still see alchemy as magic. It's definitely not chemistry or physics. I've been thinking of alchemy as an advanced brand of potions, though I admit I don't actually know that much about it. Though the philosopher's stone is a solid object, not a liquid potion, the elixer of life is definitely a magic potion in my eyes, so that's why I see Flamel as a wizard. I'm not sure how much alchemy *would* be taught at Hogwarts, especially OWL level and below. After all, Flamel was the *only* known maker of the philosopher's stone. Does anyone know of anything else alchemists may do, that might be taught for NEWTS? Annemehr From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 19:49:03 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:49:03 -0000 Subject: Hoping against disappointment in Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > Karen said: > > I originally thought that Chamber of Secrets advanced the story line > less than the other books. Now that I've reread it and all the rest > of the series, I see that there was a lot more revealed and advanced > than I originally thought. > > Joj says: > > Besides the poly juice, what is it that you saw revealed? I can't think of > much. Werewolves were mentioned often, but nothing to really give us a clue > that the next DADA would be one. Other people have mentioned all the clues > in COS, but I just haven't been able to see them. I need some help. :-) > > > > >(snip), my reply: It's not that your missing them, it's that some of them are hard to find. The prophecy was an easy guess to anyone who read PA, Dumbledore stated that she had made one real prediction and the one she made in PA made her second, what was the first, well that was revealed two books later, much to my amazement. But in an interview with J.K.R. She stated that she has given all the clues that she is going to give. So these five books contain (IHO) all that we need to know to make an educated guess. I guessed, but well. It's like putting together a rather large puzzle, you can't see all the sides all the time. and in the books we see only Harry's side. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 19:49:19 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:49:19 -0000 Subject: Hoping against disappointment in Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > Karen said: > > I originally thought that Chamber of Secrets advanced the story line > less than the other books. Now that I've reread it and all the rest > of the series, I see that there was a lot more revealed and advanced > than I originally thought. > > Joj says: > > Besides the poly juice, what is it that you saw revealed? I can't think of > much. Werewolves were mentioned often, but nothing to really give us a clue > that the next DADA would be one. Other people have mentioned all the clues > in COS, but I just haven't been able to see them. I need some help. :-) > > > > >(snip), my reply: It's not that your missing them, it's that some of them are hard to find. The prophecy was an easy guess to anyone who read PA, Dumbledore stated that she had made one real prediction and the one she made in PA made her second, what was the first, well that was revealed two books later, much to my amazement. But in an interview with J.K.R. She stated that she has given all the clues that she is going to give. So these five books contain (IHO) all that we need to know to make an educated guess. I guessed, but well. It's like putting together a rather large puzzle, you can't see all the sides all the time. and in the books we see only Harry's side. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 20:04:27 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:04:27 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron/Hermione - What's the attraction? In-Reply-To: <3F2D2FA3.8020301@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" wrote: > Charlie Moody wrote (2003-08-02 20:19): > > >On Saturday, August 2, 2003, at 07:09 AM, Przemyslaw Plaskowicki wrote: > > > > > > > >>samnanya wrote (2003-08-02 03:39): > >> > >> > (big snip, sorry) > >>> > > > >[ Nicely-done recap of the "Prefect-Confusion incident" ] > >[ by Pshemekan, deleted ] > > > > > > > >>Pshemekan: > >>Nope, no disapointment here. > >> > >> > > > >(bigger snip, sorry again) Regards, > > > -- > Pshemekan My reply: WOW! such points to wonder about, when in the mean time, someone forgot one thing, it is Harry's POV, not Ron's or Hermoine's, if this book was written from Hermoine's point of view we would know for sure, And at the way Harry's POV is going, it now seems to me that Hermoine is not going to be with either of them! She'll marry Fred and live happy with 12 kids. J.K. This whole SHIP thing is enough to drive anyone batty, we all have our own opinion, but we still need to remember that it's Harry's POV, and when Ron and Hermoine are alone, what do they do? Now IMO, (since I re-read all of the books again). Ron and Hermoine will be together and Harry and Ginny will be together, nice happy family, but of course there is no bases for this argument, and I would not swear it in a court of law. I just don't know on this one. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 20:09:32 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:09:32 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: > > I think that this interpretation is new. > > > > Right. The Prophecy: > > > > "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born > to > > those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... > and > > the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have a power > the > > Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other > for > > neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power > to > > vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies... > > > > all the difficulty is "but he will have a power > > the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the > other > > for neither can live while the other survives.." > > > > Trying to sort out the 'either, neither, other' is the key. Now, > the > > assumption has been that this passage refers to Harry and Voldemort > > *only*. Why should it? Two other people have already been referred > to > > in the Prophecy, why not again? > > > > "born to those" refers to the Potters or the Longbottoms, according > to > > the birthdates of Harry and Neville. Now insert some names, fitting > the > > existing canon, into that bit of the Prophecy. > > > > "but he will have a power Voldemort knows not, and either Harry or > > Voldemort must die at the hand of the other for neither James nor > Lily > > can live while Harry survives". > > > > > > > Comments please! > > > > Kneasy > > Okay. Comments. It's just crummy style, first of all. "The other" > should be referring to the same person both times. Also, if it is > reffering to James and Lily the second time it should be "the > others". I dont like it. Of course, crummy style is a time honored > device in prophecy and divination. . . > Olaf, glad and big my reply: you provided an interesting point, Kneasy, and let me see if I can add some more thoughts to your head. Neither can live while the other survives, Harry and/or Voldemort while Neville Survives. This would explain why the Death Eaters went after the Longbottoms after Voldemort was defeated the first time. Of course it's only specalation here. Lori From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 16:55:15 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:55:15 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75098 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "emlette" wrote: > --- Another career possibility occurred to me, too. What if he taught > Defense Against the Dark Arts at Hogwarts? He's got a real gift for > DADA, and he really enjoys teaching and watching the members of DA > improve. Maybe that's the reason JKR has kept the DADA professor > position open for so long... But I wonder if Harry would rather be out > fighting dark wizards directly as an Auror. I always figured Harry would either wind up playing quiddich or teaching defense against the dark arts. Don't get me wrong, I love him as much as anybody. The thing is, he really isn't all that good at anything else. Olaf, glad and big From ara_bob2000 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 3 18:13:33 2003 From: ara_bob2000 at yahoo.co.uk (ara_bob2000) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:13:33 -0000 Subject: Petunia Dursley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75099 I think that Petunia is a squib; that's why she appears to hate magic, although I also think that she doesn't really hate magic, but that she was jealous of her sister, and now Harry. From redramsey at bellsouth.net Sun Aug 3 19:12:06 2003 From: redramsey at bellsouth.net (tonksramsey) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:12:06 -0000 Subject: Luna and Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "american_pie8887" wrote: > I was reading a quote about Lupin and it was Peeves calling > him "Loony loopy Lupin" (somewhere in PoA, can't remember the page > number) but i just found that to be very interesting, because i'm not > mistaken, Luna is often called "loony" or "loopy" > > any thoughts? > ~~Mags Maybe they have a familial connection that has yet to be disclosed. Cousin's possibly? I see Luna playing a more important role it future books as well. Tonks From miss_teriously at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 19:42:04 2003 From: miss_teriously at yahoo.com (Miss Tery) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:42:04 -0000 Subject: Still wondering about ghosts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75101 I once read an interview with JKR, one of the questions was why some wizards become ghosts and some don't. She smiled and answered that in book 5 the answer to that question would become clearer. Well now I've read the Order of the Phoenix and I think I was just as disappointed as Harry Potter about the explanation that Nearly Headless Nick gave, because although he is dead, he doesn't know a thing. Have you got any ideas about this subject? Miss Tery From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 20:44:03 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:44:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Elixir of life References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75102 Annemehr: I'm not sure how much alchemy *would* be taught at Hogwarts, especially OWL level and below. After all, Flamel was the *only* known maker of the philosopher's stone. Does anyone know of anything else alchemists may do, that might be taught for NEWTS? Dan: The process seems to be a lot like Potions, but with a different result. Where Potions is about creating liquids, alchemy seems to be more about making solids, using science (mixing chemicals, etc.) to create a solid magical result (in our world, this magical result is a reflection of the alchemists soul). They try to, in Potterverse terms, transfigure objects, or charm them, creating a Gurbruthanian fire, or gold from iron. I don't see alchemy being introduced in the Potterverse, because it's so similar to Potions already (bubbling cauldrons, fiddling with chemicals, etc) even though the result is not, but who knows. According to Levity.com: In alchemy everything is composed of three parts: Sulphur (Soul or individualized essence), Mercury (Life Force), and Salt (Physical Body). It is the Work of the alchemist to separate and recombine these three basic principles as often as necessary until are in perfect proportion and harmony with each other. When this harmony is achieved, the creation of a 'stone' of physical object used in the transformation of the alchemist, or another, via a medium, such as water, wine, or direct contact will be produced... the aspiring alchemist seeks to separate these three parts and recombine then, giving rise to the phrase used by Paracelsus, spagyrics. Spagyrics is Greek for "separate and recombine" and is the term given to plant work, or the Lesser Circulation. The Greater Circulation consists of metallic and mineral work, its process follows the same principles as plant work, and is generally undertaken only after a certain degree of plant mastery has been attained. Dan: Perhaps Snape will have his students create their own "stones" by NEWT exam time; that'd be a good way to wrap up the series, with the alchemical component at the end as in the beginning. It's interesting that working with plants is the basic stage of alchemy--they've mostly only dealt with plants and animal components thus far, right? Not metals and minerals? All for now, Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 20:48:44 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 13:48:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75103 Steven: Okay gang, I just had an evil thought while reading this post. What if the seventh month referred to here is not the seventh month of the standard Gregorian Calendar, but another calendar? If you remember your school lessons, September used to be the Seventh month before Julius named a month for himself (July) and Augustus copied him (August). So many spells go back to the latin, why not the month names? We all know precocious know-it-all Hermione was born in September. What if she is the one spoken of in prophecy and both Neville and Harry are red herrings to protect her. Dan: NO! Such an evil thought! But... attractive. Oh dear, that would be marvelous if it turned out that the prophecy was about Hermione, but how do we go about the problem of, say, gender and parents who thrice-defied the Dark Lord? -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 20:53:05 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:53:05 -0000 Subject: Occlumency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75104 In re-reading OoP in the chapter Occlumency, when harry arrives at snape office, snape is useine DD penceive, and when harry ;eaves leaves he notices that snape is putting his memerios back. My question is if while ss and hp are joined by the mind joining spell (the name escapes me) that voldermort could see into his mind too (snapes). This wouldnt be an issue if he wasnt trying to hide something from him (voldermort) like maybe that hes still acting like a DE? and he doesnt want voldermort to know that hes not? the fact that something is said about it usally means it implieas that it means somthing to the plot. It would be cool to hear y'all opinion on this matter. Garrett Fulce-izzle From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 20:55:42 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:55:42 -0000 Subject: Petunia Dursley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ara_bob2000" wrote: > I think that Petunia is a squib; that's why she appears to hate > magic, although I also think that she doesn't really hate magic, but > that she was jealous of her sister, and now Harry. My reply: you know it makes me wonder about that too, in the first book she said her parents were thrilled when Lily got her letter, but then she calls her a freak, and well, even Mr Filch doesn't think that witches are freaks. And then Voldemort said that Harry's Mother was a muggle in GoF. So if Petunia is from a magic family then it's a family of squibs who didn't think they would ever have a witch in the family or 1/2 blood and Petunia hated whoever it was that was magical in the family, (maybe dad walked out on them). Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 20:59:15 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:59:15 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75106 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Steven: > Okay gang, I just had an evil thought while reading this post. What > if the seventh month referred to here is not the seventh month of the > standard Gregorian Calendar, but another calendar? If you remember > your school lessons, September used to be the Seventh month before > Julius named a month for himself (July) and Augustus copied him > (August). So many spells go back to the latin, why not the month > names? We all know precocious know-it-all Hermione was born in > September. What if she is the one spoken of in prophecy and both > Neville and Harry are red herrings to protect her. > > Dan: > NO! Such an evil thought! But... attractive. Oh dear, that would be marvelous if it turned out that the prophecy was about Hermione, but how do we go about the problem of, say, gender and parents who thrice-defied the Dark Lord? > -Dan > > And then you have to consider, Voldemort marked them as equal? And how did he mark Hermoine? Maybe Voldemort's Muggle father had more then one out of marriage affair and had what Hermoine's grandfather and you get the picture, but "Granger" no, I don't think so, but nice idea. lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 21:12:19 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:12:19 -0000 Subject: Still wondering about ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miss Tery" wrote: > I once read an interview with JKR, one of the questions was why some > wizards become ghosts and some don't. She smiled and answered that in > book 5 the answer to that question would become clearer. Well now > I've read the Order of the Phoenix and I think I was just as > disappointed as Harry Potter about the explanation that Nearly > Headless Nick gave, because although he is dead, he doesn't know a > thing. Have you got any ideas about this subject? > > Miss Tery Me:) Well I know it's in there, it's frustrating but it's there, most people don't choose to stay here. Nick said he was afraid to die, like Voldemort, but said that he choose to stay here and not go onto the afterlife...or whatever you want to call it, (not sure on that one). But just like Dumbledore said about the Sorting Hat, ultimately it's our choice. And the ghost that are here, choose to be here. The only one I question is Moaning Myrtle, I don't think she choose to stay I think she was made to stay. Lori From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 21:23:53 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:23:53 -0000 Subject: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803085133.00b91a90@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75108 > >Allyson wrote: > >It would just seem weird to me. I don't know, maybe Lupin could be > >someone like that. I suspect he will take over Sirius' god-parenting > >duties to some extent. I still couldn't picture Harry crying on his > >shoulder though. > > Erin wrote: > Hmmm. Maybe Lupin will cry on Harry's. I would think that might be > a scenario that helps both of them. Might even liberate Harry emotionally. He > wouldn't feel so alone and isolated. Just a thought, but it seems possible. > I don't think that it would be healthy for Harry (or any 15 year old) to take on the burden of providing emotional support to an adult, especially one who is in a quasi-parental relationship with him. Certainly he needs someone to be close to him, provide regular, *honest* communication with him and give him the occasional hug. Remus is the ideal candidate-he seems to have great compassion and understanding. And because of that, I doubt that Remus would inflict his own sorrows on Harry. But for sure, Remus needs someone in his life too-and he deserves someone. It should be another adult, though. Moving into the position of Harry's adult confidante and mentor would no doubt be tremendously theraputic to Remus, and healthy for both of them. But Harry is not ready to carry the weight of Remus's problems, and he couldn't really understand them anyhow. He is, after all, still a child, even if Dumbledore seems to forget that sometimes. Laura From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 21:32:59 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:32:59 -0000 Subject: Still wondering about ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: >The only one I question is Moaning Myrtle, I don't think > she choose to stay I think she was made to stay. Lori But how would she be made to stay? What has power over the after- life? And why would she be made to stay? bibphile From tomatogrower88 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 21:49:27 2003 From: tomatogrower88 at yahoo.com (tomatogrower88) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:49:27 -0000 Subject: Still wondering about ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miss Tery" > wrote: > > I once read an interview with JKR, one of the questions was why > some > > wizards become ghosts and some don't. She smiled and answered that > in > > book 5 the answer to that question would become clearer. Well now > > I've read the Order of the Phoenix and I think I was just as > > disappointed as Harry Potter about the explanation that Nearly > > Headless Nick gave, because although he is dead, he doesn't know a > > thing. Have you got any ideas about this subject? > > > > Miss Tery > > Me:) Well I know it's in there, it's frustrating but it's there, > most people don't choose to stay here. Nick said he was afraid to > die, like Voldemort, but said that he choose to stay here and not go > onto the afterlife...or whatever you want to call it, (not sure on > that one). But just like Dumbledore said about the Sorting Hat, > ultimately it's our choice. And the ghost that are here, choose to > be here. The only one I question is Moaning Myrtle, I don't think > she choose to stay I think she was made to stay. Lori Now my opinion I think Myrtle when she died was thinking about how sorry she would make Olive Hornby. She died in this state of mind. Myrtle just got a better way to get revenge on Olive. So I do think that Myrtle choose to stay. Myrth From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sun Aug 3 21:52:15 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:52:15 -0000 Subject: Still wondering about ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Miss Tery" wrote: > I once read an interview with JKR, one of the questions was why some > wizards become ghosts and some don't. She smiled and answered that in > book 5 the answer to that question would become clearer. Well now > I've read the Order of the Phoenix and I think I was just as > disappointed as Harry Potter about the explanation that Nearly > Headless Nick gave, because although he is dead, he doesn't know a > thing. Have you got any ideas about this subject? > > Miss Tery I, too, expected a *lot* more information on ghosts, but I think there is more there in Harry's conversation with Nick if you read between the lines. Especially if you add Nicolas Flamel's view on the subject... death being the next big adventure and all... hm, well *why* some wizards become ghosts is answered, it's by choice. I expected to get more questions answered though. ;) Lori said: "The only one I question is Moaning Myrtle, I don't think she choose to stay I think she was made to stay." I always thought that Myrtle wanted to get back at Olive Hornby (some unfinished business...), as her first mission in death was to stalk Olive everywhere she went. :) evangelina From music4masses at earthlink.net Sun Aug 3 21:54:13 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (Erin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:54:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803085133.00b91a90@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803144634.00b71df0@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75112 > > > >Laura wrote: > >I don't think that it would be healthy for Harry (or any 15 year old) >to take on the burden of providing emotional support to an adult, >especially one who is in a quasi-parental relationship with him. >Certainly he needs someone to be close to him, provide regular, >*honest* communication with him and give him the occasional hug. >Remus is the ideal candidate-he seems to have great compassion and >understanding. And because of that, I doubt that Remus would inflict >his own sorrows on Harry. But for sure, Remus needs someone in his >life too-and he deserves someone. It should be another adult, >though. Moving into the position of Harry's adult confidante and >mentor would no doubt be tremendously theraputic to Remus, and >healthy for both of them. But Harry is not ready to carry the weight >of Remus's problems, and he couldn't really understand them anyhow. >He is, after all, still a child, even if Dumbledore seems to forget >that sometimes. > >Laura Erin again, with clarification: Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. I think I simply meant that it would help to be able to share grief. To have an outlet. He keeps a lot inside. That's the burden he doesn't need. If someone else opens up first, like a good friend, maybe that can help him open up as well. It's quite healthy and natural, and can certainly happen without Harry taking on the burden of someone else's grief. Rather, it would dispel the burden for both. Helps in real life, anyway. Thanks for letting me clarify. Erin From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 21:58:58 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:58:58 -0000 Subject: Occlumency with modifications In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > > In re-reading OoP in the chapter Occlumency, when harry arrives at > snape office, snape is useine DD penceive, and when harry leaves he notices that snape is putting his memerios back into it. My > question is if while snape and harry are joined by the mind joining spell > (the name escapes me) can voldermort see into his mind too > (snapes). This wouldnt be an issue if he wasnt trying to hide > something from him (voldermort) like maybe that hes still acting like > a DE? and he doesnt want voldermort to know that hes not? the fact > that something is said about it usally means that it > means somthing to the plot. > It would be cool to hear y'all opinion on this matter. > Garrett From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sun Aug 3 22:27:59 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 22:27:59 -0000 Subject: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803144634.00b71df0@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Erin Hamilton wrote: > > > > > > > >Laura wrote: > > > >I don't think that it would be healthy for Harry (or any 15 year old) > >to take on the burden of providing emotional support to an adult, > >especially one who is in a quasi-parental relationship with him. > >Certainly he needs someone to be close to him, provide regular, > >*honest* communication with him and give him the occasional hug. > >Remus is the ideal candidate-he seems to have great compassion and > >understanding. And because of that, I doubt that Remus would inflict > >his own sorrows on Harry. But for sure, Remus needs someone in his > >life too-and he deserves someone. It should be another adult, > >though. Moving into the position of Harry's adult confidante and > >mentor would no doubt be tremendously theraputic to Remus, and > >healthy for both of them. But Harry is not ready to carry the weight > >of Remus's problems, and he couldn't really understand them anyhow. > >He is, after all, still a child, even if Dumbledore seems to forget > >that sometimes. > > > >Laura > > Erin again, with clarification: > > Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that. I think I simply meant that it would > help to be able to share grief. To have an outlet. He keeps a lot inside. > That's the burden he doesn't need. If someone else opens up first, like a > good friend, maybe that can help him open up as well. It's quite healthy > and natural, and can certainly happen without Harry taking on the burden of > someone else's grief. Rather, it would dispel the burden for both. Helps in > real life, anyway. Thanks for letting me clarify. > Erin My two bits: As much as all this sharing and opening up would be emotionally gratifying, I can't see a bunch of it happening. In JKR's world, a little emotion goes a long, long way. See how much better Harry felt after Luna talked to him about the veil? That's all we got and perhaps all we are likely to get. Same with the brief embrace of Harry and Mrs. Weasley, which was interupted by Hermione capturing Rita!Beetle. Those moments are few and far between. I do hope for a good talk with Lupin at some point but I forsee few tears being shed amongst grieving parties. It's just too messy. Jennifer From Veritas771 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 22:29:52 2003 From: Veritas771 at hotmail.com (Kurt Douglass) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 22:29:52 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia Dursley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75115 >From: "ara_bob2000" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia Dursley >Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 18:13:33 -0000 > >I think that Petunia is a squib; that's why she appears to hate >magic, although I also think that she doesn't really hate magic, but >that she was jealous of her sister, and now Harry. > >From Michael Gidlow: I agree with you. Not only does it make sense, but it also explains her attitude toward Harry. When one compares her behavior to Filth's, they see that much of her hatered of Harry is due toward bitterness and jealously rather than just fear. Afterall, Filth says that hard work is the best way to punish someone, and Petunia is always making Harry work hard. And it seems strange to me that Petunia knows so much about the wizarding world. Either that or she has an incredible memory. How else would she remember the name "Azakaban" after so many years? And how did she know that Voldemort was so terrible? I mean, the Dursleys think that all wizards are evil. She seems to be awfully afraid of him for someone who supposedly doesn't know that much about him. Only if she had had some contact with the Magical world would she know how evil Voldemort was. I have also wondered if she is resentful that her own son didn't turn out magical. It almost seems to me that if Dudley had been a wizard then she would have embraced the wizard cultrue. But when Dudley turned out normal, that was the last nail in the coffin. She didn't want to have anything more to do with the magical world. Then there's the comparison with Snape. Snape hates Harry because of his father. Petunia hates Harry because of his mother. They both hated them because they were more talented. They both were jealous of them, but said they were just "freaks" My last defence is that JKR has said that the Dursleys are going to surprise us (no, I don't have the exact quote or interview). Maybe this will be one of the surprises. > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from >posts to which you're replying! > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _________________________________________________________________ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From rshuson80 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 22:33:23 2003 From: rshuson80 at yahoo.com (oh have faith) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 22:33:23 -0000 Subject: Luna and Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "american_pie8887" wrote: > I was reading a quote about Lupin and it was Peeves calling > him "Loony loopy Lupin" (somewhere in PoA, can't remember the page > number) but i just found that to be very interesting, because i'm not > mistaken, Luna is often called "loony" or "loopy" > > any thoughts? > ~~Mags They invite a similar kind of word play, certainly. But it could just be coincidence; my reading was that JKR called Ms Lovegood "Luna" because she is a little loony - the moon has often been associated with madness (hence "lunatics"). Many old wives tales attribute strange behaviour to starring at the moon too long, or walking under a full moon and the like. As such, Peeves is a slightly better punner than he first appears. Lupin *is* loony, not in the sense of being mad, but because he's affected by lunar cycles. And he is loopy, but again, not in the mad sense. He's loopy as in lupine - wolf-like. It could be JKR intended a connection along these lines, but the loony-loopy thing does have different connotations when applied to each character. My guess is, she just likes to alliterate. But I could be wrong. ^_^ Faith's Girl From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 22:38:04 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 22:38:04 -0000 Subject: Ghosts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" > What can they do to her? She is already dead and confined to a public > restroom. No she's not - and that's the point. Myrtle said she used to haunt the girl she felt caused her death. She only started haunting the Hogwarts bathroom after she was told to stop. Ghosts seem to have the option of haunting just about anywhere - otherwise, how would so many have visited Sir Nicholas's deathday party? Perhaps there is something similar to exorcism in the Potterverse, where she could be forced to stay away from a specific place/person, or even worse be confined to one specific place. If that's the case, it would make sense to follow such a request from someone with the ability to perform the exorcism. From music4masses at earthlink.net Sun Aug 3 23:18:12 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (Erin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:18:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803144634.00b71df0@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803160828.00b8d008@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75118 > >My two bits: >As much as all this sharing and opening up would be emotionally >gratifying, I can't see a bunch of it happening. In JKR's world, a >little emotion goes a long, long way. See how much better Harry felt >after Luna talked to him about the veil? That's all we got and >perhaps all we are likely to get. Same with the brief embrace of >Harry and Mrs. Weasley, which was interupted by Hermione capturing >Rita!Beetle. Those moments are few and far between. I do hope for a >good talk with Lupin at some point but I forsee few tears being shed >amongst grieving parties. It's just too messy. >Jennifer I think you are probably right. It seems to boil down to whatever emotional support is necessary, even just a talk without any melodrama, to see ol' Harry to the end. A little would probably go a long way for him. But I do hope there's a little. It is a book with constraints, so we'll see. Erin From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 3 20:49:28 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:49:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges References: Message-ID: <3F2D7558.3070506@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75119 jenny_ravenclaw wrote: > > Ron is not perfect, but he did a damned good job of being Harry's > friend in OoP. Harry did not need another Hermione breathing down his > neck every five mintues exclaiming "You can't do that!". I think Ron > showed a lot of respect for Harry when he allowed Harry to make his > own decisions. Ron took the initiative to take a step back from Harry > when it was needed, like when Harry lost his temper - again and again. > That's being a good friend - knowing when to let your friends have > some space to vent. Ron would have been a better friend if he had done what Hermione did. A good friend would tell you what you need to hear, not what you want to hear. Some of the things Harry did were incredibly stupid, such as talking to Sirius in the fireplace and dropping the occlumency lessons. Imagine this: Hermione: Harry, you just drank an entire keg of beer. Give me your keys. Ron: Stop bugging Harry, Hermione; he can make his own decisions. Which is the better friend? From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 3 20:55:27 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 16:55:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges References: Message-ID: <3F2D76BF.9080309@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75120 Arya wrote: > > Reasons that may make a case for why Ron could lose his prefect badge: > 1. Inability and reluctance to perform duties ascribed to prefects. > He was not willing to enforce rules he was responsible to uphold such > as those that Fred and George were breaking. Even when Hermione only > wanted him to stand beside her to give her moral support, Ron refused > and stayed away from it. It would be unreasonable to expect any younger brother to enforce the rules against the likes of Fred and George. > 2. Engaged in maliscious attacks upon other students and fellow > prefects. Granted, it was against Malfoy and his gang but he led > both a revolt against them in Umbridge's office when Harry and > Hermione were leading the Evil One into the forest. Also, Ron was > involved with other unnamed DA members in the hexing of > Draco/Crabbe/Goyle on the train returning from Hogwarts. (No, you > cannot just make a case that they were defending Harry, because many > of the hexes and curses used were not meant to only impede or hinder > or prevent attack but to form a counter attack and ended with them > being unconscious. > 3. Inability to prevent Harry from leaving the school and going to > the Ministry. Yes, Hermione also is guilty of this. However, Ron is > the one who has the pattern of not considering the responsibilities > ascribed to him as a prefect. If these 2 reasons disqualify Ron (and I don't think they do), they disqualify Harry tenfold. From adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 23:29:39 2003 From: adamjmarcantel at yahoo.com (adamjmarcantel) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:29:39 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > Steven: > > Okay gang, I just had an evil thought while reading this post. > What > > if the seventh month referred to here is not the seventh month of > the > > standard Gregorian Calendar, We all know precocious know- it-all Hermione was born in > > September. What if she is the one spoken of in prophecy > > > > Dan: > > how do we go about the problem of, say, gender and parents who > thrice-defied the Dark Lord? > > -Dan > > > > And then you have to consider, Voldemort marked them as equal? And > how did he mark Hermoine? lori ok, i'll bite on this. as for the parents who thrice defied the dark lord - it could be a situation where hermione's parents defied him without their knowing it...of course that would be very "usual suspects" and would have been hinted at way earlier in the series. now the all important marking - we are assuming that the mark will be physical, but it doesn't have to be. it may be another kind of mark...intellectual, special powers, etc. now, that being said, i don't think the prophecy is about hermione at all. the prophecy was not made far enough back for a reasonable wizard to assume anything but the present calendar. for jkr to turn around and say "i was referring to a different calendar..gotcha!" would horrible form for a writer..especially the author of a series with this kind of popularity. if the prophecy is about anyone other than harry or neville, i will probably never read another jkr book again. just my opinion. adam, who is finished nibbling on this one From c4bchief at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 23:31:35 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:31:35 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <3F2D7558.3070506@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75122 > Ron would have been a better friend if he had done what Hermione > did. A good friend would tell you what you need to hear, not > what you want to hear. Some of the things Harry did were > incredibly stupid, such as talking to Sirius in the fireplace and > dropping the occlumency lessons. Imagine this: > > Hermione: Harry, you just drank an entire keg of beer. Give me > your keys. > > Ron: Stop bugging Harry, Hermione; he can make his own decisions. > > Which is the better friend? What kind of beer? Joe From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 23:31:59 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:31:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <3F2D76BF.9080309@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: <20030803233159.50750.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75123 --- "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Arya wrote: > > > > Reasons that may make a case for why Ron could > lose his prefect badge: > > 1. Inability and reluctance to perform duties > ascribed to prefects. > > He was not willing to enforce rules he was > responsible to uphold such > > as those that Fred and George were breaking. Even > when Hermione only > > wanted him to stand beside her to give her moral > support, Ron refused > > and stayed away from it. > > It would be unreasonable to expect any younger > brother to enforce > the rules against the likes of Fred and George. > And if he was cop and they were breaking the law? He agreed to certain responsiblities when he accepted the Prefect badge. I'm not saying Harry would do better, but I am saying Ron didn't fulfill his responsibilities. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From siskiou at earthlink.net Sun Aug 3 23:44:18 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:44:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <3F2D76BF.9080309@mail.ptd.net> References: <3F2D76BF.9080309@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: <19513143759.20030803164418@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75124 Hi, Sunday, August 03, 2003, 1:55:27 PM, somebody wrote: >> Also, Ron was >> involved with other unnamed DA members in the hexing of >> Draco/Crabbe/Goyle on the train returning from Hogwarts. (No, you >> cannot just make a case that they were defending Harry, because >> many >> of the hexes and curses used were not meant to only impede or >> hinder >> or prevent attack but to form a counter attack and ended with them >> being unconscious. I never received the original mail, but saw this part quoted in another post and wanted to reply to it. Ron wasn't involved in the hexing of Draco, Crabbe and Goyle in OotP, according to my book. And all the DA members involved are specifically named! Here is the relevant text from OotP: ************* The attack might have succeeded had it not been for the fact that they unwittingly chose to stage the attack right outside a compartment full of DA members, who saw what was happening through the glass and rose as one to rush to Harry's aid. By the time Ernie Macmillan, Hannah Abbott, Susan Bones, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Anthony Goldstein and Terry Boot had finished using a wide variety of the hexes and jinxes Harry had taught them, Malfoy Crabbe and Goyle resembled nothing so much as three gigantic slugs squeezed into Hogwarts uniform as Harry, Ernie and Justin hoisted them into the luggage rack and left them there to ooze. ****************** -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Aug 3 23:44:54 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:44:54 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <20030803233159.50750.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: : > > Arya wrote: > > > > It would be unreasonable to expect any younger > > brother to enforce > > the rules against the likes of Fred and George. > > > > And if he was cop and they were breaking the law? He > agreed to certain responsiblities when he accepted the > Prefect badge. > > I'm not saying Harry would do better, but I am saying > Ron didn't fulfill his responsibilities. A cop would never be sent to arrest his brothers. Hermione was being unrealistic to expect Ron to do anything but stay out of her way, which he did. Pippin From ktd7 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 00:08:05 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:08:05 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "emlette" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" > wrote: > > What if he taught Defense Against the Dark Arts at Hogwarts? He's got > a gift for DADA and really enjoys teaching and watching his students > in DA improve. Maybe that's why JKR has kept the DADA prof job open > for so long... But I wonder if he would be satisfied teaching others > instead of being out there fighting dark wizards himself as an Auror. > Thoughts? I've thought that Harry would ultimately be a DADA teacher for Hogwarts for a long time; he thinks of Hogwarts as "home", he regrets leaving every year (and not just because he has to go back to the Dursleys). It just seems a perfect fit... an auror may be out of a job once after Voldemort is gone, professional Quidditch is a possibility, but it seems a waste of so many other talents that Harry has! Still, maybe he can be the DADA teacher and a Quidditch coach! :-) Karen From rshuson80 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 00:15:05 2003 From: rshuson80 at yahoo.com (oh have faith) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:15:05 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75127 Arya wrote: It would be unreasonable to expect any younger brother to enforce the rules against the likes of Fred and George. And someone replied And if he was cop and they were breaking the law? He agreed to certain responsiblities when he accepted the Prefect badge. I'm not saying Harry would do better, but I am saying Ron didn't fulfill his responsibilities. And I say: It's worth noting that Percy had absolutely no success in curbing the activities of Fred and George either, and he being the older brother should technically have more influence. At the end of the day, Fred and George just wouldn't have recognised that Ron had any authority over them, they would have roared with laughter if he'd even tried. Ron was put in a very difficult decision here - it was an absolute lose-lose situation. He could either do nothing and let the other prefects handle it. Or he could take on his brothers, get laughed out the building, probably be on the recieving end of a nasty spell or two, and so lose any respect that anyone in the common room might have had for his authority. I imagine prefects aren't generally called upon to discipline those in the year above them; older students should understand the rules by now and take responsibility for their own actions. If a problem does arise, surely there should be some prefects in the same year as Fred and George who would be fighting less of an unequal battle? They were strangely absent. If I doubt the decision to make Ron a prefect at all, it's because I don't think it was really fair to him to put him this position where he'd have to take on his two older brothers with seemingly no support (apart from Hermione). But now Fred and George have left, he has a chance to do better, and I think that he can. Faith's Girl From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 00:34:12 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:34:12 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle matches (Was Re: Muggle-born adults) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75128 >It has just occurred to me to start wondering about this... How do so >many wizards actually *meet* Muggles and socialise enough with them to >get married? > >We see so many examples of wizards being entirely at sea in the Muggle >world - all those absurd costumes at the World Cup, for instance, so >the picture we are given of the wizarding world is that it is very much >separate from the Muggles. Even someone as fascinated by all things >Muggle as Arthur Weasley seems actually to regard non-magical people as >something quite alien, and he has very little idea how to go on in >Muggle-ish circumstances. Yet at the same time we are told that >people like Seamus' and Tonks' parents are one-of-each. So who are >these witches and wizards who mingle with Muggles? > >Any theories? > >Pen > Indeed, Pen: This is a *staggeringly* excellent question and, *sweeps off hat and bows low* my hat is off to you because I'd never even thought of this question, and it's one I'd think of with my sociological and social history interests. I can only guess that the Weasleys are somewhat anomalous - perhaps 'The Burrow' has been in the family for centuries, and they are anomalous in living quite so much on their own - I'm guessing that quite a few wizards actually integrate into suburbs and the big and much more anonymous city of London and have occasion to encounter muggles in shops and such. I imagine that there is a segment of the WW that doesn't mingle exclusively with their own kind and shop only at Diagon Alley - DA seemed to have mostly magical things that were only obtainable there, but perhaps your rank and file wizarding family goes to the local grocery for food. Remember, Hogsmeade is the only all wizard town in Britain - most of the wizarding community lives elsewhere. Felinia _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 4 00:46:42 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 01:46:42 +0100 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts Message-ID: <001801c35a21$e119f060$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75129 I'm too lack-of-sleep befuddled to figure out where I read this, but someone recently made comment about Loony Luna not being on the train at the end of the academic year, and would students be allowed to wander around Hogwarts during the Summer Holidays? Would there still be any staff around? A short while ago, Brian (my husband) was following his own line of research on rereading the books, and showed me the results of his checking in 'Quidditch through the Ages', when I noticed something else. On the 'library loan record slip' page in the front, both T(erry) Boot and E(rnie) Macmillan are down as borrowing the book from the Hogwarts library in the August, which is definitely in the Summer holidays, regardless of when the holidays start. This means that Irma Pince at least must have still been about and working, and accepted that these children had a reason to be there. In addition, it is in Harry's first year that he borrows this book, and as these two boys are his contemporaries, it means that both of them were present in the school prior to officially joining it in the September, but still had library priviledges. Why? I'm too tired to think about this now. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 00:53:09 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:53:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030804005309.89661.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75130 --- pippin_999 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca > Stephens > wrote: > : > > > Arya wrote: > > > > > > > It would be unreasonable to expect any younger > > > brother to enforce > > > the rules against the likes of Fred and George. > > > > > > > And if he was cop and they were breaking the law? > He > > agreed to certain responsiblities when he accepted > the > > Prefect badge. > > > > I'm not saying Harry would do better, but I am > saying > > Ron didn't fulfill his responsibilities. > > A cop would never be sent to arrest his brothers. > Hermione was > being unrealistic to expect Ron to do anything but > stay out of her > way, which he did. > > Pippin > Not sent to arrest them. But if he saw them robbing a bank in front of him, then he would be expected to act. He had a job to do. He didn't do that job. He was going to buy "get smart" potions instead of stopping the sale (or checking to see if they were legitimate). That is not appropriate behavior. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rshuson80 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 00:53:55 2003 From: rshuson80 at yahoo.com (oh have faith) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:53:55 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <001801c35a21$e119f060$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75131 Dawn says: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > I'm too lack-of-sleep befuddled to figure out where I read this, but someone recently made comment about Loony Luna not being on the train at the end of the academic year, and would students be allowed to wander around Hogwarts during the Summer Holidays? Would there still be any staff around? I say: Sybil Trelawny claims that Hogwarts is her home, so presumably she lives there all year round; perhaps a significant number of other teachers do, as well. A fair number of them are always around throughout all the other holidays, easter, christmas etc. If they had homes and families to go to, you'd think they would go for Christmas lunch at least, but Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Trelawny all seem pretty much ever present. Faith's Girl From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 01:06:44 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 18:06:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Out of term activity at Hogwarts References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75132 Dawn: I'm too lack-of-sleep befuddled to figure out where I read this, but someone recently made comment about Loony Luna not being on the train at the end of the academic year, and would students be allowed to wander around Hogwarts during the Summer Holidays? Would there still be any staff around? Faith says: Sybil Trelawny claims that Hogwarts is her home, so presumably she lives there all year round; perhaps a significant number of other teachers do, as well. A fair number of them are always around throughout all the other holidays, easter, christmas etc. If they had homes and families to go to, you'd think they would go for Christmas lunch at least, but Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Trelawny all seem pretty much ever present. Dan: So there is probably some staff floating around (Hagrid too, of course), but why would some students be allowed? Are Terry Boot and Ernie MacMillan orphans? Perhaps Dumbledore is letting them choose to stay at school for that reason, after the whole Evil thing happened to Tom Riddle in that orphanage of his. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 4 01:07:20 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 02:07:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Out of term activity at Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <002001c35a24$c28f4e80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75133 From: oh have faith Dawn says: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > I'm too lack-of-sleep befuddled to figure out where I read this, but someone recently made comment about Loony Luna not being on the train at the end of the academic year, and would students be allowed to wander around Hogwarts during the Summer Holidays? Would there still be any staff around? I say: Sybil Trelawny claims that Hogwarts is her home, so presumably she lives there all year round; perhaps a significant number of other teachers do, as well. A fair number of them are always around throughout all the other holidays, easter, christmas etc. If they had homes and families to go to, you'd think they would go for Christmas lunch at least, but Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Trelawny all seem pretty much ever present. Faith's Girl ------------- That's the conclusion I'd come to as well, although I was more pointing out the canon evidence of both students and a member of staff being in Hogwarts during the holidays as a reply to their original query. It still leaves me with the question of just what were the boys doing there outside termtime AND before they were officially pupils? Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 01:10:00 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:10:00 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <20030804005309.89661.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > He had a job to do. He didn't do that job. He was > going to buy "get smart" potions instead of stopping > the sale (or checking to see if they were legitimate). > That is not appropriate behavior. > I agree. I think Ron may become a good prefect later, but he didn't impress me (as a prefect) in OotP. He just didn't do the job. I like Ron, but at this point I'll have to say Ron is a great friend, but not a very good prefect. bibphile From scooting2win at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 01:19:05 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:19:05 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > > > Ron would have been a better friend if he had done what Hermione > > did. A good friend would tell you what you need to hear, not > > what you want to hear. Some of the things Harry did were > > incredibly stupid, such as talking to Sirius in the fireplace and > > dropping the occlumency lessons. Imagine this: > > > > Hermione: Harry, you just drank an entire keg of beer. Give me > > your keys. > > > > Ron: Stop bugging Harry, Hermione; he can make his own decisions. > > > > Which is the better friend? > > > What kind of beer? > > > Joe And what is he driving his firebolt or a trestal? Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 01:30:01 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:30:01 -0000 Subject: Ok, Love, Death and Voldemort - addition on ghost Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75136 I realize that the post is long, but it has some good points to ponder in it, and I just wanted to add one more thought to it, Ghosts, Professor Binns was so intent on teaching that he continued to teach after his death. Now it seems weird to me that some ghost choose to stay but maybe they are so wrapped up in their lives like moaning myrtle that they stay behind and continue what they were doing? Maybe that's it. From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 01:48:19 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:48:19 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shaw_steven" > Okay gang, I just had an evil thought while reading this post. What > if the seventh month referred to here is not the seventh month of the > standard Gregorian Calendar, but another calendar? If you remember > your school lessons, September used to be the Seventh month before > Julius named a month for himself (July) and Augustus copied him > (August). So many spells go back to the latin, why not the month > names? We all know precocious know-it-all Hermione was born in > September. What if she is the one spoken of in prophecy and both > Neville and Harry are red herrings to protect her. I don't think Hermione is the one... she is not a he. But, who is to say that the scar is really the mark in question? If it truly is Harry, perhaps the prophesy even hinted at it being Harry - Harry is Tom Riddle's social equal, his mother being muggle- born. There were 2 potential subjects of the first prophesy - Neville and Harry - but something caused LV to go after Harry First. That something was Wormtail telling him where to find Harry. Thus we see the attempt to end-run the prophesy fails, and LV fall into the trap of fulfilling it. In the second prophesy Wormtail was one of the direct subjects. In this case Sirius is resposible for setting things into motion (and Lupin, to some degree). Sirius recognized Scabbers in the photo, and tried to go after him - his attempt to clear himself instead drove Wormtail to awaken LV. If Sirius hadn't seen the picture, and hadn't tried to get his revenge, Ron would still have his rat, and nobody would have awakened LV and helped him back to the Riddle house. From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 02:10:22 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 02:10:22 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75138 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: >>>Imagine this: Hermione: Harry, you just drank an entire keg of beer. Give me your keys. Ron: Stop bugging Harry, Hermione; he can make his own decisions. Which is the better friend?<<< >>>Lori: And what is he driving his firebolt or a thestral?<<< Me: That's a good question. I wonder what the penalties are for FUI. Could they impound his "vehicle?" Seriously, I'm not sure why people feel a need to point to Ron and Hermione's contrasting behaviors toward Harry and pronounce them right and wrong (or good and bad) respectively. Hermione is the Yin to Ron's Yang. She scrutinizes, second-guesses and occasionally nags. He commiserates, encourages, supports and, when needed, tells Hermione to back off. Is it so hard to admit that they're *both* good friends to Harry? That they *both* care about him? That they *both* fill voids in his life? I just don't get why it has to be either/or. And regarding Ron as a Prefect, I'm (surprise, surprise) with the camp that says we know too little about what he's done to assess how well he's fulfilling his responsibilities. I don't think that we (or Hermione for that matter) should have expected him to discipline F&G. As far as we know, there are five prefects in that house that aren't Weasleys; nothing's stopping them from "pulling rank" on the twins when necessary. I don't see anyone calling for the four unnamed 6th & 7th year Gryffindor prefects to have their badges stripped when, come to think of it, we haven't heard about them doing *anything*. Or maybe it's just that the Harry-vision in which things are presented to us doesn't bother to cover boring things like prefects satisfying the day to day requirements of their job. CM From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 02:20:50 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 02:20:50 -0000 Subject: Peck of Owls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > I don't think a group of owls is called a parliament. There is a poem > by Chaucer called "The Parliament of Fowles". Maybe that's what > you're thinking of Parliament is correct Then there's the: cauldron of raptors congress of ravens kettle of nighthawks or raptors unkindness of ravens some pretty bizarre names for groups! I found these by looking up "bird group names" in a search engine. Melinda From catlady at wicca.net Mon Aug 4 02:36:31 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 02:36:31 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <002001c35a24$c28f4e80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: << That's the conclusion I'd come to as well, although I was more pointing out the canon evidence of both students and a member of staff being in Hogwarts during the holidays as a reply to their original query. It still leaves me with the question of just what were the boys doing there outside termtime AND before they were officially pupils? >> I agree that Madam Pince or her understudy had to be at Hogwarts in order to issue out books, but the students wouldn't need to come to Hogwarts to borrow library books if they were allowed to borrow books by owl order. I don't believe that anyone on this list was checking books out of the libraries before they were officially pupils. Check-out list of our copy of QTTA: O. Wood ......... 09 April .... Oliver Wood, 5th year in PS/SS B. Dunstan ...... 16 May M. Flint ........ 22 June ..... Marcus Flint, 6th year in PS/SS C. Diggory ...... 02 July ..... Cedric Diggory, 3rd year in PS/SS A. Johnson ...... 19 July ..... Angelina Johnson, 3rd year in PS/SS E. Macmillan .... 12 August ... Ernie Macmillan, 1st year in PS/SS T. Boot ......... 21 August ... Terry Boot, 1st year in PS/SS S. Fawcett ...... 16 September 'Claw girl who crossed GoF Age Line K. Bundy ........ 10 October K. Bell ......... 19 October .. Katie Bell, 3rd year in PS/SS C. Warrington ... 13 November . Slythie Chaser in PoA J. Dorry ........ 06 December T. Nott ......... 22 January .. Theodore Nott, same year as Harry? S. Capper ....... 31 January M. Bulstrode .... 06 February . Millicent Bulstrode, 1st year in PS F. Weasley ...... 15 February . Fred Weasley, 3rd year in PS/SS H. Granger ...... 02 March .... Hermione Granger, 1st year in PS/SS H. Potter ....... 11 March .... Harry Potter, 1st year in PS/SS I don't believe that this is the check-out list from when Harry read QTTA in autumn term of PS/SS (1991-92). For one thing, March 11 wouldn't be in autumn term, before the flying lessons began. Harry must have checked it out again to re-read -- the names make it clear that this is a book that people re-read; Oliver Wood, for example, must have read QTTA before Harry ever got his Hogwarts letter. I think this list begins in April '94 (1993-94 school year, PoA), when Oliver and Marcus were both still in school (Marcus 'had to repeat a year', thus giving rise to the word FLINT to mean an *error* by JKR). I guess Oliver re-read it as a break from studying for NEWTs and Marcus read it to kill time between end of exams and end of term. It can't begin in April '95 because Cedric was dead by July '95. I suppose it could begin in April '93 (1992-93 school year, CoS) unless some of those names I don't recognise are new students who started in GoF. By the way, has anyone noticed that if Angelina's family name was Entwhistle instead of Johnson, then all three Gryffie Chaser girls would be named like musical instruments? From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 03:20:28 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 03:20:28 -0000 Subject: Hoping against disappointment in Book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75141 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > Karen said: > > I originally thought that Chamber of Secrets advanced the story line > less than the other books. Now that I've reread it and all the rest > of the series, I see that there was a lot more revealed and advanced > than I originally thought. > > Joj says: > > Besides the poly juice, what is it that you saw revealed? The big thing that sticks out in my mind is when ron saw the medal of merit that was awarded to Tom Riddle. HRH went to the trophy room to have a closer look, and also discovered that TR was headboy. Ron commented many times while they were in there that TR sounded just like Percy. TR hated his father.....Percy now hates his parents. Both are power hungry. Now what is going to happen with Percy is the subsiquent books is anyones guess. Will he go back to his family with many mega aplogies or will he go to the dark side. Fran From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 03:23:32 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 03:23:32 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75142 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "shaw_steven" > > There were 2 potential subjects of the first prophesy - Neville and > Harry - but something caused LV to go after Harry First. That > something was Wormtail telling him where to find Harry. Sof: It hasn't been stated that LV went after Harry on Wormtail's say so. The books say thatthev Potters knew LV was after them and that Dumbledore suggested the best way to hideout would be with the Fidelius curse. Upon being named Secret-Keeper for the Potters, Wormtail revealed their whereabouts to LV. Voldemort may very well have decided to go after the Potters of his accord since he was looking for them prior to their going into hiding. From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 03:25:14 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 03:25:14 -0000 Subject: Solid Gold Cauldron In-Reply-To: <005501c359dd$3eb37a60$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > > I was about to reply that this is only true if it is the leadfree type, which is the only kind legal to use in Britain these days as the lead can be transfered by touch (and the vapour while molten), when a thought hit me. What if pewter is used in it's traditional form and isn't leadfree in the WW. > > Doing a search on lead poisoning, I discovered that low level lead poisoning can produce, amongst other possible symptoms, anaemia (sallow, pale complexion), loss of appetite, mood shifts such as aggression or depression, and insomnia, as well as problems like (paraphrased from a case study) > - Sunlight seemed dazzling > - must always be on their guard > - People deceived them all the time > - Thoughts crowd into the mind too rapidly for discussion > - had little respect for theirself > - skin was very sensitive > - bothered by murderous ideas > - loathed people who touched them > - Without their work they would be nothing > - felt lost in a crowd > > The lead can also be laid down in the hair and bones, including the teeth, possibly affecting their outward appearance. > I think you're on to something here--I forwarded your idea to a medically trained friend of mine who responded with this: http://www.aan.com/students/medical/pro_cas.cfm After picking myself up off the floor following a prolonged laughing fit upon reading the 1st paragraph I managed to struggle through the rest... I don't think Snape's a vampire--but I can see how he might be mistaken for one if this is indeed his problem. Quick! Get that man a bottle of One-A-Day with Iron! Melpomene, who really does have better things to do, really. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 03:39:23 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 03:39:23 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75144 meltowne: > > There were 2 potential subjects of the first prophesy - Neville and > > Harry - but something caused LV to go after Harry First. That > > something was Wormtail telling him where to find Harry. > > Sof: > > It hasn't been stated that LV went after Harry on Wormtail's say so. The books say > thatthev Potters knew LV was after them and that Dumbledore suggested the best > way to hideout would be with the Fidelius curse. Upon being named Secret-Keeper for > the Potters, Wormtail revealed their whereabouts to LV. Voldemort may very well have > decided to go after the Potters of his accord since he was looking for them prior to > their going into hiding. Voldemort could have been after both the Potters and the Longbottoms. We don't know what means the Longbottoms used, if any to keep themselves and Neville safe from Voldeomort. Until the Potters made Wormtail Secret-Keeper, I think Voldemort actively searched for both families if he didn't know which one was the one that would fulfill the prophecy. When Wormtail became Secret-Keeper, able to divulge the whereabouts of the Potters, Voldemort decided to go after them first because he knew where to find him. If he could get rid of Harry, he'd at least be assured that one potential threat was gone, if not actually destroying the threat if Harry turned out to be the one in the prophecy. I can't keep my eyes open anymore, KathyK From laxer26 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 03:42:18 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:42:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: No subject Message-ID: <20030804034218.54915.qmail@web13701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75145 Faith's Girl said: Sybil Trelawny claims that Hogwarts is her home, so presumably she lives there all year round; perhaps a significant number of other teachers do, as well. A fair number of them are always around throughout all the other holidays, easter, christmas etc. If they had homes and families to go to, you'd think they would go for Christmas lunch at least, but Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Trelawny all seem pretty much ever present. ------------- Dawn said: That's the conclusion I'd come to as well, although I was more pointing out the canon evidence of both students and a member of staff being in Hogwarts during the holidays as a reply to their original query. It still leaves me with the question of just what were the boys doing there outside termtime AND before they were officially pupils? Laxer says: Well the thing I think happened is that JKR was not paying attention and forgot something somewhere. You know, like the 1000 students at Hogwarts, when all we can come up with is 280. laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From laxer26 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 03:43:41 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 20:43:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Out of term activity Message-ID: <20030804034341.54995.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75146 Faith's Girl said: Sybil Trelawny claims that Hogwarts is her home, so presumably she lives there all year round; perhaps a significant number of other teachers do, as well. A fair number of them are always around throughout all the other holidays, easter, christmas etc. If they had homes and families to go to, you'd think they would go for Christmas lunch at least, but Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Trelawny all seem pretty much ever present. ------------- Dawn said: That's the conclusion I'd come to as well, although I was more pointing out the canon evidence of both students and a member of staff being in Hogwarts during the holidays as a reply to their original query. It still leaves me with the question of just what were the boys doing there outside termtime AND before they were officially pupils? Laxer says: Well the thing I think happened is that JKR was not paying attention and forgot something somewhere. You know, like the 1000 students at Hogwarts, when all we can come up with is 280. laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From EBeth0000 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 03:46:39 2003 From: EBeth0000 at hotmail.com (ebeth0000000000) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 03:46:39 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Ron/Hermione - What's the attraction? In-Reply-To: <3F2D2FA3.8020301@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75147 This thread is quite long now, and it's a little difficult to keep track of exactly who said what, so I'm just putting this out there in general, to the entire idea of the thread: I don't ship for any particular couple, but if you wanted to make a case for it, the literary structure of OoP could be construed (sp?) to support a R/H ship: 1) Although it is certainly true that bickering does not equal love, one could argue that JKR shows us with the scene of James and Lily in the pensieve that she, at least, sees that some adolescents who may seem to dislike each other share a mutual attraction (yes, I know, I know that's a whole other thread--) 2) One could draw a parallel between R/H bickering/dislike carefully pointed out by JKR through Harry's POV and James/Lily dislike. In both cases, Harry is irritated and mystified by the bickering--after all, we know the boy is not that good at seeing what's going on under the surface of things:) 3) This parallel could be drawn out further by Harry's mental comparison of Ron preening himself under the tree by the lake to his vision of James under the same tree. Perhaps she is demonstrating that both boys, the object of scorn by particularly bright and opinionated girls at this stage in their development, mature into splendid men worthy of respect in their due time:) EBeth From EBeth0000 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 04:13:45 2003 From: EBeth0000 at hotmail.com (ebeth0000000000) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 04:13:45 -0000 Subject: Ender's Game parallel--was--Re: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75148 Laura wrote: > I don't think that it would be healthy for Harry (or any 15 year old) > to take on the burden of providing emotional support to an adult, > especially one who is in a quasi-parental relationship with him. > Certainly he needs someone to be close to him, provide regular, > *honest* communication with him and give him the occasional hug. > Remus is the ideal candidate-he seems to have great compassion and > understanding. And because of that, I doubt that Remus would inflict > his own sorrows on Harry. But for sure, Remus needs someone in his > life too-and he deserves someone. It should be another adult, > though. Moving into the position of Harry's adult confidante and > mentor would no doubt be tremendously theraputic to Remus, and > healthy for both of them. But Harry is not ready to carry the weight > of Remus's problems, and he couldn't really understand them anyhow. > He is, after all, still a child, even if Dumbledore seems to forget > that sometimes. > > Laura excellent point, Laura, and I do agree--as a person and a regular human being regarding Harry as a regular human being. Unfortunately, I don't think we can hold out for Harry to get much regular, realistic, family-type emotional support from any adults anywhere in the series. I heard an author speak at a children's lit. convention who said that the first rule of writing books with children as the main characters is that you have to let them solve the main conflict in the book on their own--they can get hints, or assistance from adults (Like DD, Dobby, etc.), but ultimately they have to stand on their own two feet. (even if that's unrealistic for children in the real world--it's necessary for the story to work) After all, the child is the protagonist, and, in this case, a fantasy hero to boot, and must actively engage in finding the resolution to their conflict. That's why so many principle characters in children's books are orphans--it's a convenient way to explain why the protagonist is on their own so much without any parental involvement. Sci-Fi author Orson Scott Card takes this concept to a different level in 'Ender's Game' when his child protagonist, Ender, actually resorts to killing another student when that student tries to kill Ender, because he has been so fully and completely conditioned (in his training as a soldier) that no adult or teacher will step in to help or save him, ever. I wonder if this is where JKR is going, taking away or diminishing all the adults Harry thought he could trust, since it is now clear that Harry must kill Lord Voldy or be killed himself. I'm currently re-reading 'Ender's Game' to compare this concept and investigate (plus it's a good summer book anyway:)) Especially parallel to Harry Potter is the idea that Ender is not a killer, but is forced to be, in order to save all humanity. He must balance his love of all that is gentle and human, for he must want to preserve the world and fight for it, with his unusual skill and extraordinary power as a soldier which must be channelled to fight an extreme evil. Sound familiar? (Remember how Harry couldn't properly administer the Cruciatus curse on Bellatrix? I look for Book 6 to become very, very dark indeed.) Sobering, but dramatic, eh? EBeth From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 04:17:26 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 04:17:26 -0000 Subject: Elixir of life In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75149 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Nicholas Flamel was an actual person. He was a bookseller who was interested in alchemy (which was a proper academic discipline at the time). He died at the age of eighty, but not before he became very rich. Beyond those facts, there is a lot of mythology about him, including the notion that he lived to be hundreds of years old (having faked his 1417 death). There is a French company called Flamel Technologies which develops drug delivery systems; there are also restaurants, online alchemy schools and all kinds of stuff of varying degrees of credibility named after him. --JDR From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 4 03:26:39 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:26:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Happines, and Whats to Come References: Message-ID: <3F2DD26F.3080807@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75150 Danger Mouse wrote: > > Dan: No canon either, but I don't think Trelawney can > remember. I read seers as people who, from time to time, get > all googly-eyed and possessed by some supernatural mojo. That > is, their consciousness gets switched off while the mojo takes > over, so there's nothing to remember, because they... just > weren't there. But Voldemort might not know that, or if he does he might think she has some subconscious memory that he can get at, the way he broke the memory charm on what's-her-name to find out about Crouch. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 4 03:29:49 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:29:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Happines, and Whats to Come References: Message-ID: <3F2DD32D.4070507@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75151 portrait_of_mrs_black wrote: > >>b) whats going to happen to the death eaters that were arrested > > make *them* a singing sensation:) you know, give them a few singing > lessons, plus maybe some dancing and they'll be the next Weird > Sisters (Weird Death Eaters) :) why lock them in a prison - make a > use of them! You mean like the singing, dancing Knights of the Round Table in Monty Python and the Holy Grail? From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 4 03:39:37 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:39:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Canon" don't shoot me. References: Message-ID: <3F2DD579.1080306@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75152 scooting2win wrote: > > Me again: I found the reference I was thinking of/looking for its at > www.the-leaky-cauldron/quickquotes/articles/2003/0620-dateline- > couric.htm Now maybe I did read more into it, but it looks like she > is leaning towards Ron and Hermoine not harry and hermoine, and my > thought on this is that she wrote Hermoine as herself, and now feels > that Harry as a son. So she wouldn't put those two together, IMO. Oh, I don't know: Oedipus's mother's name was JO-casta. Coincidence? I think not. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 4 03:56:50 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:56:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's mistakes References: <00d401c35787$c385e780$4d9dcdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: <3F2DD982.9040906@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75153 Richelle Votaw wrote: > > 1) Not telling Harry about the prophecy to begin with. A > mistake? Maybe. May also have been a mistake to tell an > eleven year old (in so many words) he has to save the world. > No win situation on that one. Telling him would have, among other things, played right into Voldemort's plans by making Harry curious about the prophecy (if he was only told of its existence) and tempting him to go after it, or by risking Voldemort extracting it from Harry's mind (if he was told the content). > 3) Seemingly not noticing (or not doing anything about it) > that Sirius was rapidly deteriorating while basically kept > caged. Since when is that Dumbledore's responsibility? Sirius is a big boy, and should be able to look after himself. It is not Dumbledore's job to keep everybody amused. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 4 04:19:10 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:19:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's rude comment (slang and stuff)(longish again) References: Message-ID: <3F2DDEBE.9090800@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75154 severusbook4 wrote: > > IMOO I think that this is just a remark, not racist in the least. > She just doen't like horses. I don't own a dog, but I own a cat, > does this make me racist? No, I just like cats more than dogs. And no one has called Ron a bigot because he doesn't like spiders. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 04:43:28 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 04:43:28 -0000 Subject: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: bboy_mn: > Gryffindor yet almost a RavenClaw? That would be Hermione. Remember > when Hermione gave every one the time/date Galleon coins at one of > their DA meetings in the latest book? She said she put a Protean charm > on them and someone commented how brainy she was, and asked why she > wasn't in Ravenclaw. Hermione said the Sorting Hat thought about > putting her in Ravenclaw. And curious enough Hermione was able to use Harry's wand to cast the unlocking spell in the very first months of her first year. Either she was experienced enough with other wands to get results out of wands not compatible for her or she is indeed compatible with the fawkes phoenix feather wands. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 04:51:11 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 04:51:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's mistakes In-Reply-To: <3F2DD982.9040906@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Telling him would have, among other things, played right into > Voldemort's plans by making Harry curious about the prophecy (if > he was only told of its existence) and tempting him to go after > it, or by risking Voldemort extracting it from Harry's mind (if > he was told the content). But if he had told Harry everything immediately then Harry woud have started occlumency and probably would have worked harder at it if he knew that Voldemort was going to use him as his spy and then Voldemort wouldn't have possibly extracted the information from Harry's head since he would never have noticed Harry in his head in the first place > > Since when is that Dumbledore's responsibility? Sirius is a big > boy, and should be able to look after himself. Dumbledore is the leader of the troops. I think one of his responsibilities is to maintain morales. Besides Sirius didn't exactly grow up since he has spent the last decade or so in jail or as a dog which hasn't exactly helped his mental state. From loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 05:25:02 2003 From: loonyloopyrjl at yahoo.com (loonyloopyrjl) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 05:25:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75157 I don't think Hermione was being racist or prejudiced when she referred to centaurs as "horses" to Parvati and Lavender [OoP, Chapter 27]. Rude, yes, but not necessarily racist or "speciest." Hagrid himself (although not known for his tact) referred to the centaurs as "mules" IN FRONT of the centaurs themselves: "I won' be kept outta the fores' by a bunch of mules like you!" said Hagrid. [OoP, Chapter 30] And walking away from them, Hagrid says to Harry and Hermione: "Ruddy old nags though, eh?" [OoP, Chapter 30] And back in PS/SS Chapter 15, Bane says of Firenze: "Have you no shame? Are you a common mule? . . . . It is not our business to run around like donkeys after stray humans in our forest!" I would expect Hagrid, more than anyone else, to be not racist or prejudiced against other species. He is half-human and imperfect, as is Hermione, so he will say stupid things. The centaurs, on the other hand, have no problem insulting their own as mules or donkeys, so I think it's understood that this is an "acceptable" insult. Loony Loopy From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 3 20:57:38 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:57:38 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75158 Hi, all the quotes refer to Kneasy's post: > The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord > approaches...born > to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month > dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he > will have a power the Dark Lord knows not... I actually think this part of the prophecy has already been fulfilled by Harry surviving Voldemort as a child (the Dark Lord marked him and he defeated him temporarily). It's not that important imo what exactly the power is because he already used it (it might be the love of his mother, but it might be something else entirely, maybe he is just a more powerful wizard as Voldemort thought). The question now is if he still has the power and if it's strong enough to help him defeat Voldemort a second time. It does only say that he has the power necessary to defeat the Dark Lord but not that he will. > The power we know about, it's been mentioned before, > parental love plus the power of family that also protects > Harry at the Dursleys. DD has also told us that Voldemort > does not know or understand it. But if that is the power, even if Voldemort doesn't understand it, doesn't mean he can't be prepared for it. He is not an idiot and someone of his DE surely must understand it. > and either must die at the hand of the other for First I must say that English is not my native language, so I might not understand the finer aspects of the 'either' but when I first read that I understood it that Harry and Voldemort will die. According to my dictionary either can mean 'each of two'. So I took it they booth die. > neither can live while the other survives...the one with > the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born > as the seventh month dies... > "but he will have a power Voldemort knows not, and either Harry > or Voldemort must die at the hand of the other for neither James > nor Lily can live while Harry survives". That's a good point, never looked at it that way. I could be related to his parents, it would make sense, because if the 'neither can live while the other survives' line would mean Harry and Voldemort both should be dead: both are alive, which can't be according to the prophecy, so one must be dead, but that's not the case, so it can't mean Harry and Voldemort. Sachmet From p51263 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 20:59:52 2003 From: p51263 at aol.com (p51263 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 16:59:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia Dursley Message-ID: <182.1eb629b3.2c5ed1c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75159 I do not think that Petunia is a squib but I agree that she was just plain jealous of her sister Lily and now Harry. The reason that she hates magic stems to the fact she has seen the attention Lily has gotten from thier parents and now Harry. Patricia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From steve at hp-lexicon.org Mon Aug 4 06:09:11 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 06:09:11 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75160 > > << That's the conclusion I'd come to as well, although I was more > pointing out the canon evidence of both students and a member of > staff being in Hogwarts during the holidays as a reply to their > original query. According to Rowling in her interview with the Southwest News, no on stays at Hogwarts during the summer except Filch: Q: Where do the Hogwarts teachers live during the school holidays ? Do they stay at Hogwarts? (Andrew Zimmer) A: No, they don't. Filch, the caretaker, stays. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700- swns-alfie.htm I don't believe that the list of names in the front of QA is accurate. The book, according to Dumbledore in the introduction, was copied for use by Muggles, and I expect that the checkout names and dates were added arbitrarily and not copied from an actual checkout record. At any rate, we know that Madam Pince doesn't stay at Hogwarts during the summer. Kind of makes you wonder where they all go, though. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From dussydelf at yahoo.fr Sun Aug 3 20:55:22 2003 From: dussydelf at yahoo.fr (Delf) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:55:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's greasy hair, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F2D76BA.5070802@yahoo.fr> No: HPFGUIDX 75161 Hello everyone, this is my first message here. > Dawn wrote re: Snape's hair: > > Snape has put a lot of effort into his appearance. His walk and > style of dressing are cultivated to intimidate and keep people at a > distance, his way of talking and body language likewise. > > Me(Ginger) > I snipped a lot of stuff wondering why Snape would have hair like > that if he could do anything about it. > I think Dawn hit the nail on the head. > > Assuming Snape could do something about it, maybe he keeps it like > that to further his "untouchable" aura. Intimidation and repulsion > seems to me to be a good combination for keeping people at bay. Could it be because Snape's hair is naturally wavy or curly, and that he intends on keeping long and greasy so that it falls straight? I can imagine him as a child with short curls all over his head, and becoming a teenager he let it grow long so that the "girlish" curls became simple waves, then he discovered that grease made it look even less "Lockhart-ish"... Delf. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Aug 3 22:16:23 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 22:16:23 -0000 Subject: What's behind the veil ? Another chance for Sirius ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75162 I really enjoyed JKR slipping in that question from Harry to Nearly Headless Nick: 'what happens when you are dead, anyway ?' An annoyed teenager demanding an answer to that teensy weensy million dollar question that's been bugging a few people since the year dot ! Loved it - I think she might have been getting her own back at some of those fundamentalists ! However, was I alone in thinking that the arch and the veil concepts had parallels with Lord of the Rings ? Remember Aragorn, using his rights as the future king, riding through a scary archway into the Halls of the Dead, and asking the dead to fulfil their promise, and come and help save the day at the battle for Minas Tirith ? I wonder if a host of the 'dead' (or however you want to describe the state of those beyond the veil), will be asked to play a role in the final defeat of Voldemort, a bit like the prior incantem forms coming out the wands and helping Harry in GoF ? And Sirius might lead the charge, as it were. It would be a way of bringing closure to the pain of Sirius's death - they get to 'see' each other one more time, in the heat of a final battle. Who knows, perhaps Harry even goes to join Sirius, having defeated Voldemort ? I find it very difficult to imagine Harry going on to live any kind of ordinary life after Book 7, to me he is written very much as a brave young prince, flawed but doomed, destined to live on only in people's hearts and minds, having saved them all. CW From princess_lea_solo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 23:00:09 2003 From: princess_lea_solo at yahoo.com (lea) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 23:00:09 -0000 Subject: Hitler and Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75163 I've been thinking about this for a while but I've never asked anyone about it. I'm not sure if this has or hasn't been discussed, so please forgive me if it has, I'm still new here. There are a lot of similarities between Hitler and Voldemort. There are the more obvious ones like: hate for mudbloods (Jews), Death Eaters (Nazis), wanting to take over the world and have only one perfect race (purebloods), etc. But there are some that are somewhat hidden, similarities like: Voldemort's father was a muggle (Hitler's mother was Jewish) and the war in the books is like World War 2. I was wondering if there are other similarities between the two? From sberinsky at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 00:15:57 2003 From: sberinsky at yahoo.com (Stacy Berinsky) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 17:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia Dursley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030804001557.70090.qmail@web13310.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75164 No, I don't think she could be a squib, because that would imply that her family was compromised of witches and wizards, and her sister lily is always described as being born of muggles. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 06:19:21 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 06:19:21 -0000 Subject: Students names (was:Re: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" > wrote: > me (bibphile): > I agree that Harry should know, but he doesn't. His herbology > class is the same size and we saw at the beggining of OotP that he > either doesn't know or isn't sure or severasl of their names. Harry > doesn't seem to bother to learn the names of people unless they > associate with him somehow. Being in the same class just ins't > enough. Maybe it's because he's got alot going on and doesn't have > time. Or maybe it's because as a kid im muggle-school none of the > other students wanted anything to do with him so he just gor used > to never reaching out. I don't think we've ever seen him start a > converation with someone new. They've either introduced > hemselves,like Ron, or been introduced to him, like Oliver. > > Olaf: > >The Gryffindors in Harry's year . . . That is eight. So at > most there are 12 Slytherins in his year. That's not very many names > to learn. Even if he never talked to them he would at least know > their names. > > Olaf, glad and big > > > > I would agree. Except for one thing. There are only 20 people in > his hebology class and we've seen that he doesn't know their names. > Whay should he know the names of the 12 Slytherin if he doesn't know > the 12 Hufflepuff? It doesn't matter how many names you or I know. > Harry doesn't know the names. We saw that specifically in OotP. It > also said that Hermione had to tell Harry who Theodore Nott was > (even though Nott is in his year and, I assume, his potions class). > > bibphile I don't think it's so hard believe that Harry doesn't catch students names. It's not that Harry just isn't social with other students, he seems to avoid them if he can help it. I just assume (yes I know what ass-u-me means) that he avoids meeting too many new people because he thinks that they'll make a big deal about him being "THE Harry Potter". As familiar as some Hogwarts students are with him, he still gets a lot of pointing and staring from all the rest - And unless a student does something very interesting in class he is not likely to notice them because he usually has a lot of other things on his mind (like solving the mystery, exposing the bad guy, or surviving the term). -QoE From wkduke51 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 00:17:49 2003 From: wkduke51 at yahoo.com (wkduke51) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:17:49 -0000 Subject: Petunia Dursley could be a powerful witch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75166 This is my first and perhaps last post. My apologies if previously discussed. What if Petunia (and maybe Vernon) is a powerful magical person, but her magic identity is a secret protected by a fidelis charm so it cannot be detected unless the secret keeper reveals it? All that stuff about Harry being protected by connection with his mother's "blood" family rings hollow. The physical description of the horse faced Petunia also doesn't jibe with the description of Lily Potter. For all we know that missing day in the first book was spent creating the refuge and cover story at No. 4 Privet. Since Dumbledore was the only person to know the prophesy, perhaps he has placed Harry in the boot camp of hard knocks to toughen him for the final duel. Just speculation. From wkduke51 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 00:47:36 2003 From: wkduke51 at yahoo.com (wkduke51) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:47:36 -0000 Subject: Petunia Dursley could be a powerful witch Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75167 This is my first and perhaps last post. My apologies if previously discussed. What if Petunia (and maybe Vernon) is a powerful magical person, but her magic identity is a secret protected by a fidelis charm so it cannot be detected unless the secret keeper reveals it? All that stuff about Harry being protected by connection with his mother's "blood" family rings hollow. The physical description of the horse faced Petunia also doesn't jibe with the description of Lily Potter. For all we know that missing day in the first book was spent creating the refuge and cover story at No. 4 Privet. Since Dumbledore was the only person to know the prophesy, perhaps he has placed Harry in the boot camp of hard knocks to toughen him for the final duel. Just speculation. From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 01:17:12 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:17:12 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75168 Karen: Still, maybe he can be the DADA teacher and a Quidditch > coach! :-) I know I replied to this thread earlier... but who thinks that Harry will actually *live*? Ther does seem to be a big doubt in my mind, esspecially when I re- read the "Boy Who Lived" label. He wasn't the boy who survived. And to say "lived" and not "lives" seems past tense worth noting. We know it is his deepest desire to be with his parents. By the end of the series, we don't know who else will be "behind the veil". We also know that LV is afraid of death, and if some people's take on the prophecy is right, then neither will live at all. I see LV possesing Harry, and Harry jumping behind the veil, ending themselves once and for all. While this seems a little bit too "tragic hero" for a kids book, I can see further exploration of the veil as making death not absolute, but more of an alternate dimension, where Harry will join his mom & dad & others and live happily. Auror and DAD just seem to mundane, and anti-climactic. _Blyx_ From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 01:36:01 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:36:01 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <001801c35a21$e119f060$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > I'm too lack-of-sleep befuddled to figure out where I read this, but someone recently made comment about Loony Luna not being on the train at the end of the academic year, and would students be allowed to wander around Hogwarts during the Summer Holidays? Would there still be any staff around? Luna has family to go home to (her father) so I do not think she stayed at Hogwarts for the summer. Maybe she is a werewolf and the day the train left fell on a full moon so the staff had to make special arrangements for her. Or, she may be still looking around trying to find her stuff and her dad had to come get her???? Diana From redramsey at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 4 01:44:47 2003 From: redramsey at bellsouth.net (tonksramsey) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:44:47 -0000 Subject: Fred and George leaving Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75170 Someone was talking about Fred and George leaving school and something dawned on me. Who is going to the next beaters for the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Tonks From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 01:44:49 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:44:49 -0000 Subject: Luna and Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oh have faith" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "american_pie8887" > wrote: > > I was reading a quote about Lupin and it was Peeves calling > > him "Loony loopy Lupin" Faith's Girl wrote: > They invite a similar kind of word play, certainly. But it could > just be coincidence; my reading was that JKR called Ms > Lovegood "Luna" because she is a little loony - the moon has often > been associated with madness (hence "lunatics"). Many old wives > tales attribute strange behaviour to starring at the moon too long, > or walking under a full moon and the like. Now Me: I have a hard time believing that JK has coicidences. The word "looney" is slang from the Latin word luna for moon. Luna has probably been bitten by a werewolf. This came up in an earlier post (sorry can't remember who wrote it), but maybe the spell that Luna's mom was trying to work on and died from was one to cure Luna. Diana From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 4 06:34:34 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 06:34:34 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts/Fawcett=Hufflepuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" > wrote: > Check-out list of our copy of QTTA: > > O. Wood ......... 09 April .... Oliver Wood, 5th year in PS/SS > B. Dunstan ...... 16 May > M. Flint ........ 22 June ..... Marcus Flint, 6th year in PS/SS > C. Diggory ...... 02 July ..... Cedric Diggory, 3rd year in PS/SS > A. Johnson ...... 19 July ..... Angelina Johnson, 3rd year in PS/SS > E. Macmillan .... 12 August ... Ernie Macmillan, 1st year in PS/SS > T. Boot ......... 21 August ... Terry Boot, 1st year in PS/SS > S. Fawcett ...... 16 September 'Claw girl who crossed GoF Age Line Now Cindy: Isn't Fawcett the Hufflepuff girl that Snape catches behind one of the rose bushes in GOF? I'm sure she is, and her boyfriend is a Ravenclaw called Stebbins. -Cindy From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 01:55:04 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:55:04 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <001801c35a21$e119f060$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > I'm too lack-of-sleep befuddled to figure out where I read this, but someone recently made comment about Loony Luna not being on the train at the end of the academic year, and would students be allowed to wander around Hogwarts during the Summer Holidays? > Luna said she and her father were going to Sweden during the summer holiday to look for a crumble-horned snorkack (Chapter 38, OotP), so she must have left somehow, floo powder with her father maybe? From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 06:33:57 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:33:57 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Out of term activity at Hogwarts References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75174 SVA: According to Rowling in her interview with the Southwest News, no on stays at Hogwarts during the summer except Filch: Q: Where do the Hogwarts teachers live during the school holidays ? Do they stay at Hogwarts? (Andrew Zimmer) A: No, they don't. Filch, the caretaker, stays. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0700- swns-alfie.htm Dan: Doesn't make sense, though, does it? What about Hagrid? He LIVES at Hogwarts, and is still Groundskeeper. And what about Trelawney who calls it home? What about Dumbledore? Who's guarding the castle, keeping Death Eaters from frolicking about on the grounds? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 02:00:02 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 02:00:02 -0000 Subject: emotional rescue In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030803160828.00b8d008@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75175 Jennifer: > > > >My two bits: > >As much as all this sharing and opening up would be emotionally > >gratifying, I can't see a bunch of it happening. In JKR's world, a > >little emotion goes a long, long way. See how much better Harry felt > >after Luna talked to him about the veil? That's all we got and > >perhaps all we are likely to get. Same with the brief embrace of > >Harry and Mrs. Weasley, which was interupted by Hermione capturing > >Rita!Beetle. Those moments are few and far between. I do hope for a > >good talk with Lupin at some point but I forsee few tears being shed > >amongst grieving parties. It's just too messy. Erin: > I think you are probably right. It seems to boil down to whatever emotional > support is necessary, even just a talk without any melodrama, to see ol' > Harry to the end. A little would probably go a long way for him. But I do > hope there's a little. It is a book with constraints, so we'll see. Well, exactly. The initial point I raised was that the books seemed very British to me because of the way emotions were handled (or not, as the case may be). The scene with Luna was so effective (yes, I cried) precisely because she understod what Harry needed at that moment. It didn't have to be lots of talk and drama-it just had to be someone who knew what he was feeling and let him know it. As for Molly, I still think she blew it. she should have kicked everyone else out of the room and let Harry cry. Molly is a good person but she's a bit of a ditz and she tends to react before she thinks sometimes. I thought she was unnecessarily nasty to Sirius, for instance. Emotional scenes *are* messy, especially when you are in the midst of a world crisis, as the HP characters are. When lives are at risk, there's little energy left over for the niceties. Still, I can't help but feel badly for the hurt being endured by good people (well, characters)for whom a little acknowledgement would go a long way. I know that the books aren't likely to change, nor should they. JKR should tell her stories in her own way. (She's done pretty decently up to now!) If this were RL, though, there would probably be a healthy balance somewhere between JKR's representation and the daytime-talk-show-there-are-no-secrets stuff we seem to like to indulge in here in the States these days... Laura From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 06:42:41 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:42:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fred and George leaving References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75176 Tonks: Someone was talking about Fred and George leaving school and something dawned on me. Who is going to the next beaters for the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Dan: Maybe Dean and Seamus? I'd imagine it'd be two people we know (sort of--we haven't seen much at all of either character), who are close friends, like Fred and George. Then again, it could just as well be Neville and Hermione. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 06:57:03 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 06:57:03 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair, In-Reply-To: <3F2D76BA.5070802@yahoo.fr> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Delf wrote: > Hello everyone, this is my first message here. > > > Dawn wrote re: Snape's hair: > > > > Snape has put a lot of effort into his appearance. His walk and > > style of dressing are cultivated to intimidate and keep people at a > > distance, his way of talking and body language likewise. > > > > Me(Ginger) > > I snipped a lot of stuff wondering why Snape would have hair like > > that if he could do anything about it. > > I think Dawn hit the nail on the head. > > > > Assuming Snape could do something about it, maybe he keeps it like > > that to further his "untouchable" aura. Intimidation and repulsion > > seems to me to be a good combination for keeping people at bay. > > Could it be because Snape's hair is naturally wavy or curly, and that he > intends on keeping long and greasy so that it falls straight? I can > imagine him as a child with short curls all over his head, and becoming > a teenager he let it grow long so that the "girlish" curls became simple > waves, then he discovered that grease made it look even less > "Lockhart-ish"... > > Delf I've heard all kinds of theories about Snape's greasy hair on this board. Not to say that any of them are unreasonable, mind you. I just wonder if JKR meant to say anything but that Snape's hair is...well, greasy. In other words, I doubt that there is anything mysterious about it. Of course we have only Harry's assesment of Snape to go on. No need to assume that Snape's hair is awful. Maybe it's greasy a la Nick Cave circa 1983. Who knows? I'm just not willing to say that there is something secret and unrevealed about Snape's hair. Sorry. Allyson From HumWolf at aol.com Mon Aug 4 03:52:50 2003 From: HumWolf at aol.com (HumWolf at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:52:50 EDT Subject: Thestral Boy (was : Forever Wicked? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75178 >From [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3523 bibphile: >I agree that Harry should know, but he doesn't. His herbology class is the same size and we saw at the beggining of OotP that he either doesn't know or isn't sure or severasl of their names. I don't think we've ever seen him start a converation with someone new. They've either introduced themselves,like Ron, or been introduced to him, like Oliver. Reply: I teach middle school (12-14 year olds). In a typical class of 25-35 students there are some who, even after being in the same class for a whole year, still do not know the names of some of their classmates. I don't think Harry is any different. As for myself, I occasionally look through my HS yearbook and come across people who I didn't know existed while I was in school. Donna From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 07:00:52 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:00:52 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... or not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepingblyx" wrote: > Karen: > Still, maybe he can be the DADA teacher and a Quidditch > > coach! :-) > > > I know I replied to this thread earlier... but who thinks that > Harry will actually *live*? > > Ther does seem to be a big doubt in my mind, esspecially when I re- > read the "Boy Who Lived" label. He wasn't the boy who survived. And > to say "lived" and not "lives" seems past tense worth noting. > > We know it is his deepest desire to be with his parents. By the end > of the series, we don't know who else will be "behind the veil". We > also know that LV is afraid of death, and if some people's take on > the prophecy is right, then neither will live at all. Annemehr: I don't know why they take the prophecy that way, because to me, "either must die" means one or the other. If it said, "one must die at the hand of the other" it would make it sound like a *certain* one must die. By saying "either must die" the prophecy doesn't specify which one it is. It's like if someone asks you, "do you want eggs or cereal this morning?" and you reply, "either," it means you'll have one or the other, not *both*. You're just not specifying which one. That said, I still don't trust anyone's take on this prophecy (mine included), so I still have no idea whether Harry will live or die, even though I'm sure V will be defeated somehow. Blyx: > Auror and DAD just seem to mundane, and anti-climactic. Annemehr I guess I'm one of the few, but I *don't* think Harry would have no reason to live after defeating Voldemort. Sure, he would need to make a new life for himself. I see him starting out much like the end of GoF: "He liked it best when he was with Ron and Hermione and they were talking about other things, or else letting him sit in silence while they played chess." I know this is a stark contrast from the end of OoP (which also applies to talking to Hagrid, BTW), but I think Harry will be past his OoP isolation by the end of the last book. Though he will be "The One" he will have his friends on his side as they were at Kings Cross this last time. Anyway, after a time of quiet, which I'm picturing mostly at the Burrow, he will finally feel like doing something. And, what do you know, the Weasleys are just about to do a bit of de-gnoming, and out to the garden he goes. Has a good laugh for the first time in a while, too. That's how it would start. He'd just do whatever came to hand. There is always plenty to do in life, and I'm sure he would find his place in the world with time. And, there's that 18th birthday to celebrate. Harry could certainly have a life worth living after Voldemort; the Next Great Adventure will come soon enough. That is, *if* he survives, of course. Annemehr who wants him to survive From vuwildcat03 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 04:17:27 2003 From: vuwildcat03 at yahoo.com (Kevin) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 04:17:27 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75180 KathyK: > Voldemort could have been after both the Potters and the > Longbottoms. We don't know what means the Longbottoms used, if any > to keep themselves and Neville safe from Voldeomort. Until the > Potters made Wormtail Secret-Keeper, I think Voldemort actively > searched for both families if he didn't know which one was the one > that would fulfill the prophecy. When Wormtail became Secret-Keeper, > able to divulge the whereabouts of the Potters, Voldemort decided to > go after them first because he knew where to find him. If he could > get rid of Harry, he'd at least be assured that one potential threat > was gone, if not actually destroying the threat if Harry turned out > to be the one in the prophecy. > I can't keep my eyes open anymore, Is it possible that in the year between Harry (and Neville's) births and when LV killed the Potter's that The Longbottom's went mad and Neville was sent to his Grandmother's? I can't recall if there is a specified timeline with respect to that, but.... If the Longbottom's were already driven to insanity during Neville's infacy and then he was sent to his grandmother's perhaps it was as simple as LV not being able to find Neville, or rather finding the Potter's and Harry first. Obviously LV didn't consider the fact that when he attacked Harry he would be reduced to a powerless spirit. Perhaps he was aware of and planned on killing both Harry and Neville and Wormtail simply gave him the Potter's information first. As for some of the suggestions that Harry is not indeed the one foretold to battle LV, maybe it's the stick-in-the-mud realist in me, but I just don't think J.K.R. would build an empire (books, films, retail) on this huge lie. As much as this group here is a bunch of grownups, the millions and millions of children that this empire is based around would be utterly confused and distrubed. I really hope for some more awesome surprises in the series, but the kid in me wants it all to end happy and for the boy/young man who has been the prtoagonist for 7 books to end up being the hero. --Kevin From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 07:10:45 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (owlery2003) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:10:45 -0000 Subject: Droobles Best Blowing Gum theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75181 Maybe not a new idea, but re-reading PoA (for the umpteenth time) I came across the description of Drooble's Best Blowing Gum "(which filled a room with bluebell-colored bubbles that refused to pop for days)". Did anyone notice bluebell-colored bubbles in St. Mungo's when HR&H run into Neville? You'd think if the Longbottoms were constantly eating this brand of gum the ward would be full of them! Seems to confirm the drugged-gum theory . . . of course, maybe you need to actually blow the bubbles . . . owlery2003 From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 07:14:00 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:14:00 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's mistakes In-Reply-To: <3F2DD982.9040906@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Richelle Votaw wrote: > > > > 1) Not telling Harry about the prophecy to begin with. A > > mistake? Maybe. May also have been a mistake to tell an > > eleven year old ... > T.M.: > Telling him would have, among other things, played right into > Voldemort's plans by making Harry curious ...edited... > bboy_mn: This is going to sound odd at first, but Dumbledore's mistake was not 'telling Harry' or not 'telling Harry', it was taking an all or nothing approach. See, I told you it was odd. The logical and safest and least tempting toward mischief would have been to use a graduated approach. Again another odd one, he should have told Harry the whole truth from the beginning, just not ALL of the whole truth. Is any of this making sense? In the beginning, he should have told Harry a generalized version of the whole truth, or to look at it another way, a superficial version of the whole truth. Then as each year went by and Harry became more mature, Dumbledore should have fleshed it out with a few more details. That way Harry would have alway had some idea of what was going on, but at the same time, he wouldn't have had to know the full exteme meaning. So, I guess you could call that a layered approach; each year adding another layer of details to the basic truth. > > 3) Seemingly not noticing (or not doing anything about it) > > that Sirius was rapidly deteriorating while basically kept > > caged. > > Since when is that Dumbledore's responsibility? ... bboy_mn: Since when is it any friends responsibility to notice when a friend is sinking into dispare, especially, when you as a friend are contributing to that dispare (obvious hint of sarcasm)? We can all look back and say he should have done this or he should have done that, but that is the luxury of hindsight on our part. On the other hand, we would like to think that Dumbledore has some gift of foresight, but sadly, by his own admission, he dropped the ball on this one. To err is human, to forgive is divine. Just a thought. bboy_mn From l10r77 at juno.com Mon Aug 4 05:38:13 2003 From: l10r77 at juno.com (Lisa) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 01:38:13 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Muggle-born teachers Message-ID: <3F2DF145.000005.45069@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 75183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oh have faith" wrote: Faith's Girl: > This thought occurred to me in a discussion last night and I was > interested to know what others thought; > > Though there are plenty of students at Hogwarts who are muggle- born, > or half-blood, there doesn't seem to be an *adult* character who is > anything but pureblood. The only exceptions I can think of is > Nymphadora Tonks, who we learn in OOP is a half-blood with a muggle > father, and Tom Riddle, who got a mundane muggle name to go with his > muggle ancestory. > In CoS, Malfoy is talking about the Chamber being open and how the all the Muggle-borns and half-bloods would be, I guess expunged would be the best word, from Hogwarts and he does go on to say the McGonagall will be one of the first ones to go. When I read that I immediately thought that maybe she could be muggle-born or half-blood? He said also that she was filling in for someone. I wonder who that was? Lisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gondrong21 at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 4 07:11:58 2003 From: gondrong21 at yahoo.co.uk (gondrong21) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:11:58 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > meltowne: > > > There were 2 potential subjects of the first prophesy - Neville > and > > > Harry - but something caused LV to go after Harry First. That > > > something was Wormtail telling him where to find Harry. > > > > Sof: > > > > It hasn't been stated that LV went after Harry on Wormtail's say > so. The books say > > thatthev Potters knew LV was after them and that Dumbledore > suggested the best > > way to hideout would be with the Fidelius curse. Upon being named > Secret-Keeper for > > the Potters, Wormtail revealed their whereabouts to LV. Voldemort > may very well have > > decided to go after the Potters of his accord since he was looking > for them prior to > > their going into hiding. Is there any chance that the thing made LV went after HP was the Potters' power? There hasn't been any adequate information about Potter's family. The only thing I ever heard that JKR said was that James had inherited a lot of money from his father. It make me believe that the Potters have some important role in the wizarding world. That could mean that the Potters had some greater amount of power than the Longbottoms which made LV afraid that HP will be the one that have the power to bring him down. Just a thought. sorry I'm not fluent in English. > From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Mon Aug 4 07:24:17 2003 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (John, C) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:24:17 +0100 Subject: JKR's best interview Message-ID: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F453@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 75185 JKR's best interview - This is my first post on HP4GU, so I thought i'd discuss a few snippets from the best interview (in terms of info) JKR has ever given. This was given just before the release of GOF. 1. About Lily Q. Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry's father and I was wondering 'Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?' JKR. Yeah, you will. It's ---- yet again ---- you won't find out ---- OK, in Book 3 you're absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry's father. Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do. I think this is my favourite quote ever. I love the bit that states 'what Harry ends up having to do'. Makes it sound like Harry has to do something, which your average person wouldn't want to do!. But I really can't think what important thing we found out about Lily in Book 5. The only thing I can think of is that she didn't like James very much! 2. About Snape Q. There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape JKR. He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. Up until this point (pre GOF) Snape had been nothing but unpleasant. Therefore, I can only imagine JKR is stunned because Snape definitely will redeem himself in book 7. I've always wondered about Snape that his life debt to James may have been powerful enough that as soon as Voldemort intended to kill James (& Lily & Harry), this turned Snape into an enemy of Voldemort (magic at it's most impenetrable - as DD says in POA) JKR. Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. I've seen lots of posts stating that Snape teaches the way he does, so as to help students learn. But it seems that he just isn't a nice person and is quite willing to humiliate students for his own pleasure! 3. About death JKR. The natural laws of death applies to wizards as it applies to Muggles and there is no returning once you're properly dead. You know, they might be able to save very close to death people better than we can, by magic. They have certain knowledge we don't, but once you're dead, you're dead. So, yeah, I'm afraid there will be no coming back for Harry's parents. I think this should end the James/Lupin switch theory. James is dead - that's it. I do agree that Lupin acts slightly strangely when talking to Harry in POA, but I presume it is because of the talk about James & Lily. Also, from their Patronus chat, it would appear that in the past, Lupin has tried to fight off dementors... and failed! 4. About Ginny JKR. Obviously, it is inappropriate in books like these, it would be totally alien to the tone of these books if I got into too brutally realistic of an area ---- you know, we're not going to be looking at teenage pregnancy here, we're not going to be looking at drug taking here, you know. This would be totally alien to the spirit of these books. However, I do want Harry to grow up in a realistic way. I remember a post about Voldemort somehow being the child of Ginny Weasley after using a time-turner. I don't think so!! Finally, I just wanted to include something I was listening to this morning. The fact that in COS, Harry was sure he had heard the name Riddle before. I don't think JKR would include this line for no reason. I don't think Ron had mentioned the name to harry after he had cleaned the trophy. If the name Riddle means something to Harry, it probably comes from his childhood. With the Dursley's! Has Petunia mentioned any Riddle relatives to Harry before? From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 07:16:17 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:16:17 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75186 This may have been handled in another thread, so excuse me if it has, but ... just how *is* the wizard government chosen? While it's not impossible that an idiot like Fudge would be elected democratically (he makes Jim Hacker of Yes, Minister look like an intellectual), he seems more like the head of the civil service, but more - in a democracy, Voldemort wouldn't have to resort to violence, he'd just have to stand in the next election. He'd wipe the floor with Fudge. Remember, even Hitler was democratically elected in the beginning, and Tom Riddle seems to have been quite charismatic, handsome and plausible. Fudge wouldn't have the powers we find out he has in OoP, he wouldn't be worrying about Dumbledore raising an army, only that he might stand against him next election and you certainly wouldn't have people being dragged off to that nightmarish place Azkaban without a trial, as Hagrid was in CoS. Just a thought. I'd be interested in others' thoughts on this. From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 4 07:46:03 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:46:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Out of term activity at Hogwarts References: Message-ID: <002201c35a5c$763ff560$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75187 From: Catlady (Rita Prince Winston) <<<>I don't believe that anyone on this list was checking books out of the libraries before they were officially pupils. H. Granger ...... 02 March .... Hermione Granger, 1st year in PS/SS H. Potter ....... 11 March .... Harry Potter, 1st year in PS/SS I don't believe that this is the check-out list from when Harry read QTTA in autumn term of PS/SS (1991-92). <>>>> ------------ You're right. Having had a few hours sleep, and finally finding my copy of PS, I note that Hermione had borrowed the book in the November (chapter 11 - Quidditch). So the date of 2 March must obviously be a later loan. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 07:47:45 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 00:47:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's best interview References: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F453@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75188 John: Finally, I just wanted to include something I was listening to this morning. The fact that in COS, Harry was sure he had heard the name Riddle before. I don't think JKR would include this line for no reason. I don't think Ron had mentioned the name to harry after he had cleaned the trophy. If the name Riddle means something to Harry, it probably comes from his childhood. With the Dursley's! Has Petunia mentioned any Riddle relatives to Harry before? Dan: I'd just chalk it up to another thing Voldemort transferred to Harry. It makes we wonder what else he's got of Lord Thingy's. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From darkthirty at shaw.ca Mon Aug 4 07:48:24 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:48:24 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Opening night at the WWF - Rules Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75189 Entering the tent was like entering a Breughel painting, with a soundtrack composed of a thousand roaring Honda engines and a million simultaneous warp drives. The seats were packed, and filled with shrieking eccentrics, some wearing featherboas and others twirling grey underpants on their fingers, looking like vampish tricksters or trashy slimeballs. There were also some animals in the stands, ostriches and other flying things, squawking cacaphonously. (Is a single unit of noise a cacaphone? Darkthirty wondered.) Darkthirty paid his entrance fee and squeezed past a group of big and bangy people, making his way to the top row, where there was some standing room. "This whole thing seems a tad pathetic," he thought, "and it smells like detergent in here." All around the ring, every couple of metres or so, he could see men in black, standing guard, as it were, looking very much like the vice squad of a cartoon city. Darkthirty noticed too that, around the audience, several people were rubbing their necks, as if they were suffering from headaches, or perhaps whiplash. A dark-haired woman made her way to the centre of the ring, jeered by almost the entire crowd. "Welcome, people, to our first evening of sentimental crap!" The boos and screams of hatred from the crowd were deafening. The woman paused for a second, and then retaliated by shouting into her microphone. "My name is Antonia..." More shouts, and the big and bangy group Darkthirty had passed were now stomping their feet rythmically. "...Byatt.." The screaming and stomping got louder. A few people tossed elgin marbles half-heartedly at the stage. The vice squad tensed. "Our biggest assest, in these unruly times, is the sine curve of our critical facility..." The sound of a thousand individuals groaning collectively flooded the tent. "...but we must also be prepared to inspect the often ignored dew drop..." "Shut up!" shouted several audience members. "Get offa the stage!" shouted some others. ".. though we must not be lead astray, down the degrees of freedom, by flying hedgehogs and the like..." The woman better read the rules and bug out soon, thought Darkthirty. "Passions of the mind aside, then, here are your rules." The bangy people were the last to quiet. They stopped stomping, but continued to mumble among themselves. "There are two kinds of bouts; the standard one fall affair, and the open affair. As you may have already heard, only canon characters - either as referenced in acronyms on the list or as referenced by critics - like myself - ship captains or representatives, or notorious list posters may enter the ring to fight." An atonal so-called chorus of boos went up at this. "Acronyms that are also sentient beings may fight as well. In the standard affair, you may use argument, canon magic or other moves, and legal holds. In the open affair, you can use whatever you like." At this, the crowd let out a tremendous cheer. The big and bangy folk looked happiest of all - they were practically dancing where they stood. "Angels and insects, let's get ready to rumble!" And saying this, Byatt walked briskly out of the ring, as the crowd went wild. From snosageau at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 07:53:02 2003 From: snosageau at hotmail.com (snosageau) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:53:02 -0000 Subject: Fred and George leaving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Dan: > Maybe Dean and Seamus? I'd imagine it'd be two people we know (sort of--we haven't seen much at all of either character), who are close friends, like Fred and George. Then again, it could just as well be Neville and Hermione. I don't know that I'd necessarily agree that it would be someone we already know. Katie Bell and Angelina were on the team and we weren't given much information about them (other than the fact that Angelina was stressed about being captain and was channelling Oliver Wood). Actually we weren't really given a lot of info about him either. Also, I don't really see that quidditch plays such a big role in the books (Except for the matches with Slytherin), for it to matter whether or not we know anything about the players on the team. Snos. From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Aug 4 07:56:58 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:56:58 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F2E9E6A.27157.90762F@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 75191 On 4 Aug 2003 at 2:10, C M wrote: > And regarding Ron as a Prefect, I'm (surprise, surprise) with the > camp that says we know too little about what he's done to assess how > well he's fulfilling his responsibilities. I don't think that we (or > Hermione for that matter) should have expected him to discipline F&G. > As far as we know, there are five prefects in that house that aren't > Weasleys; nothing's stopping them from "pulling rank" on the twins > when necessary. I don't see anyone calling for the four unnamed 6th & > 7th year Gryffindor prefects to have their badges stripped when, come > to think of it, we haven't heard about them doing *anything*. Or > maybe it's just that the Harry-vision in which things are presented > to us doesn't bother to cover boring things like prefects satisfying > the day to day requirements of their job. I want to reinforce this one - OK, I *was* a prefect at a school that was as similar to Hogwarts as is reasonable for a Muggle school. And there is no way known you'd have been expected to routinely handle disciplinary matters involving your own family. The only time you'd have been expected to take a stand would be in a situation where their behaviour was so serious that you had to deal with it RIGHT NOW - you couldn't wait - and if you were the only person available. And in the case of Ron... well, there are four prefects (or should be) who are *senior* to him, and they should not be allowing a situation to develop where Ron would be faced with the dilemma of dealing with his own brothers. They should be looking out for him (and for Hermione as well) to prevent problems. Ron could only fail in his duty as a prefect with regards to his brothers if the more senior prefects let him fail. Now, I've noticed that this issues of Ron's prefecture is coming up a bit, and I'm responding a fair bit because I have an interest. There is a book written about how the Prefect system in exclusive British (and British model) schools works and worked - I had to read it when I became a prefect. I'm going to see if I can get a copy from the library - and if I can, I *may* post some details from it with an analysis of Ron's performance. But I think it's true that we haven't seen much to go on yet. Although I maintain that if Ron was a lousy Prefect we would have seen it by now. It may not be obvious when a Prefect is good at their job - it rapidly becomes obvious when they are not. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 4 08:03:13 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:03:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peck of Owls References: Message-ID: <3F2E1341.9010501@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75192 > > > I don't think a group of owls is called a parliament. Collective nouns for birds http://www.nzbirds.com/Collective.html I particularly like A Soar of Vultures and An Exultation of Larks From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Aug 4 07:58:00 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:58:00 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > This may have been handled in another thread, so excuse me if it has, > but ... just how *is* the wizard government chosen? While it's not > impossible that an idiot like Fudge would be elected democratically > (he makes Jim Hacker of Yes, Minister look like an intellectual), he > seems more like the head of the civil service, but more - in a > democracy, Voldemort wouldn't have to resort to violence, he'd just > have to stand in the next election. He'd wipe the floor with Fudge. > Remember, even Hitler was democratically elected in the beginning, > and Tom Riddle seems to have been quite charismatic, handsome and > plausible. Fudge wouldn't have the powers we find out he has in OoP, > he wouldn't be worrying about Dumbledore raising an army, only that > he might stand against him next election and you certainly wouldn't > have people being dragged off to that nightmarish place Azkaban > without a trial, as Hagrid was in CoS. > > Just a thought. I'd be interested in others' thoughts on this. Suggest a paternalist type oligarchy, as enshrined in the Wizengamot - like a council of elders perhaps? Wizengamot derives from the old anglo-saxon term of Witengamot. Must run off and read up on saxon forms of government... who would have thought that a childrens' book series could be so intellectually taxing. Cheers June From doliesl at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 08:18:08 2003 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 08:18:08 -0000 Subject: JKR's best interview In-Reply-To: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F453@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75194 > 2. About Snape > > Q. There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape > JKR. He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because > it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to > you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why > I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. > Up until this point (pre GOF) Snape had been nothing but unpleasant. > Therefore, I can only imagine JKR is stunned because Snape definitely will > redeem himself in book 7. I've always wondered about Snape that his life > debt to James may have been powerful enough that as soon as Voldemort > intended to kill James (& Lily & Harry), this turned Snape into an enemy of > Voldemort (magic at it's most impenetrable - as DD says in POA) Actually, the question JKR was stunned by was not what you put up there. She was "stunned" by a previous question in which someone asked "Will Snape ever fall in love?" When the interviewer said "There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape", he was more like making a statement, not really a question, and JKR voice-over agreeing with him by saying "He is, isn't he?" You needed to listen to the actual voice-clip to catch that (these details are not include in transcript). So the question JKR was stunned at and "you'd find out why in Book 7" was referred to the "Snape in love" question. D. From dkewpie at pacbell.net Mon Aug 4 08:34:33 2003 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 08:34:33 -0000 Subject: JKR's best interview and JKR's favorite character In-Reply-To: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F453@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John, C" wrote: > JKR's best interview - > I think this is my favourite quote ever. I love the bit that states 'what > Harry ends up having to do'. Makes it sound like Harry has to do something, > which your average person wouldn't want to do!. But I really can't think > what important thing we found out about Lily in Book 5. The only thing I can > think of is that she didn't like James very much! And the fact that she still end up marrying him? That is a very significant information. The fact that Lily end up marrying a guy she used to hate, what could that say about Harry (in regards to what JKR said about Harry ends up doing)? Could this be a forshadowing of Harry changing mind on some of the characters he used to hate? (esp. the one he swears he'll "never ever forgives..."?) > 2. About Snape > > Q. There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape > JKR. He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because > it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to > you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why > I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. > > Up until this point (pre GOF) Snape had been nothing but unpleasant. > Therefore, I can only imagine JKR is stunned because Snape definitely will > redeem himself in book 7. I've always wondered about Snape that his life > debt to James may have been powerful enough that as soon as Voldemort > intended to kill James (& Lily & Harry), this turned Snape into an enemy of > Voldemort (magic at it's most impenetrable - as DD says in POA) John, I wonder why you left out the key elements (the "question" that JKR was stunned at) when you quote the above quote. For those who didn't know, the question JKR stunned at was the "will Snape ever fall in love" question. So I assume whatever we'll find out about Snape in book 7 that JKR promised will be somewhat related to Snape's emotional side? BTW I don't know if Snape fans know about this, as I've seen some posters here said how they think JKR didn't like Snape that much or how we as readers aren't suppose to like this character or something. Well Snape fans, never fear. JKR does indeed like Snape as a character very much. Check out this interview from Newsweek web exclusive interview of JKR on June 22: http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/929395.asp#BODY She was asked if she has any favorite character, and guess who she answer first? Snape! Let me quote: JKR: "I really like Snape. I mean, I wouldn't want to have a dinner with him, but as a character he's great because he's complicated and quite nasty. I love Dumbledore. I love Hagrid. I really like Sirius because he's a troubled adult and there may be a slight dearth in some children's literature of adult characters who are allowed to be complex or have problems. It's hard actually to name the characters I don't like. Because if I didn't like a character as a character I just wouldn't use them." Apparantly to JKR, Snape is only "quite nasty", ha! And I absolutely agree with her! J From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 4 09:15:41 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 11:15:41 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308041115.41099.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75196 > bboy_mn: > > Gryffindor yet almost a RavenClaw? That would be Hermione. Remember > when Hermione gave every one the time/date Galleon coins at one of > their DA meetings in the latest book? She said she put a Protean charm > on them and someone commented how brainy she was, and asked why she > wasn't in Ravenclaw. Hermione said the Sorting Hat thought about > putting her in Ravenclaw. I fear no one is going to agree with me, but I don't think Hermione belongs to Ravenclaw. The SHat didn't take much time to sort her, so it decided quickly she was G, even if allowing time for the doubt. IMO, she studies too hard to be a Ravenclaw. I see them as the advanced group taking the same lessons as others. If they pay atention in class, they don't have to spend much time studying later (so they can have a good Quidditch team). They are shown in the library? I spent a lot of time at school library in my teens. Writing notes to my roommates, flirting with boys, reading novels. All with absolute discrection and silence, of course. I studied one day per exam, never more, always getting top marks. I had a few friends that did the same. So I think Hermione studies too hard. I'm not saying Ravenclaw aren't eager to learn, just they don't need to put the same effort into it as the other Houses. silmariel From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 09:23:18 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:23:18 -0000 Subject: JKR's best interview In-Reply-To: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F453@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John, C" wrote: > JKR's best interview - > > This is my first post on HP4GU, so I thought i'd discuss a few snippets from the best interview (in terms of info) JKR has ever given. This was given just before the release of GOF. > > 1. About Lily > Q. Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry's father and I was wondering 'Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?' JKR. Yeah, you will. It's ---- yet again ---- you won't find out ---- OK, in Book 3 you're absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry's father. Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do. I think this is my favourite quote ever. I love the bit that states 'what Harry ends up having to do'. Makes it sound like Harry has to do something, which your average person wouldn't want to do!. But I really can't think what important thing we found out about Lily in Book 5. The only thing I > can think of is that she didn't like James very much! > Valky: I think my take on this is by skewing in Sirius comment that Lily never hated James, Perhaps what Harry needs to do is stand up for what he believes in even against someone he cares very much about. If Lily's stand against James was the significant thing, which it really does seem to be. > > 2. About Snape > > Q. There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape > JKR. He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because it would ruin. Valky: Some people take this line as a hint at confirmation of the question. I don't entirely. I think this could also be taken as JKR wanting to say "Aha! I am really doing a job on you with that one aren't I!" Because from the start she has tilted the weigh against Snape and then in a twist swung it back dramatically. So which is he just when we think hes not so bad he goes and does something awful, ie condemning Sirius in POA. And then when its all starting to weigh too heavily in his bad light he does or is seen to do something heroic, ie the Spy Snape revelation. I doubt I'll get agreement from everyone on this but I see the pattern as swinging in the good turns to bad to good way. What I mean is that JKR IMHO has ended it on the good side all too often for me to truly believe thats how she will wrap him up in book seven. Then again I am probably all out of focus here. > John continues more quote from JKR: I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. > Valky: To me JKR using the word stunned here might indicate her thinking. "Haven't I made him bad enough?" In terms of that she has tried to achieve a very equal good/bad persona for Snape so we can't tell what he will become in the end. But like I said I am probably out of focus because this take could also mean she is thinking "Ouch I haven't made him bad enough someone is not fooled." John wrote: > I've always wondered about Snape that his life debt to James may have been powerful enough that as soon as Voldemort intended to kill James (& Lily & Harry), this turned Snape into an enemy of Voldemort (magic at it's most impenetrable - as DD says in POA) JKR. > Valky: I totally agree that this is entirely possible. There is likely to be a revelation that Snape turned against Voldemort during a personal moral crisis as most purvey, but there might not be. Maybe the life debt magic was it. The powerful magic that cannot be penetrated. But does this mean to some degree that Snape is a Voldemort opposer against his will. John wrote more quote from JKR: > Snape is a very sadistic teacher, loosely based on a teacher I myself had, I have to say. I think children are very aware and we are kidding ourselves if we don't think that they are, that teachers do sometimes abuse their power and this particular teacher does abuse his power. He's not a particularly pleasant person at all. However, everyone should keep their eye on Snape, I'll just say that because there is more to him than meets the eye and you will find out part of what I am talking about if you read Book 4. JkR > I've seen lots of posts stating that Snape teaches the way he does, so as to help students learn. But it seems that he just isn't a nice person and is quite willing to humiliate students for his own pleasure! > > > Finally, I just wanted to include something I was listening to this morning. The fact that in COS, Harry was sure he had heard the name Riddle before. I don't think JKR would include this line for no reason. I don't think Ron had mentioned the name to harry after he had cleaned the trophy. If the name Riddle means something to Harry, it probably comes from his childhood. With the Dursley's! Has Petunia mentioned any Riddle relatives to Harry before? > > Valky: I have another take on this also, Harry recalls that Riddle rings to him an association with a memory of being *very* young. It is uncommon but there are people especially ones who have met with tradgedy in infancy who have memories that date to the ages of as young as six days old. If JKR is alluding to this phenomenon in Harry it would mean that his friend Riddle would be associated with a severe and traumatic incedent before the age of one. Thats just a thought. Hope it spawns some theories. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Mon Aug 4 09:34:53 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:34:53 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > In my opinion, another trajedy surrounding Sirius' death will be the loss of > his > wonderful lines from the series. You've got to admit, he's had some great > ones! Therefore, in his memory, I thought it would be great to list our all > time > favorites... Oop p. 89 UK: "Well, as everyone thinks I'm a mad mass-murderer and the Ministry's put a ten thousand Galleon price on my head, I can hardly stroll up the street and start handing out leaflets, can I?" Love that line. :) evangelina From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Aug 4 09:54:38 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:54:38 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > > wrote: > > > > > > Trying to sort out the 'either, neither, other' is the key. Now, > > the > > > assumption has been that this passage refers to Harry and > Voldemort > > > *only*. Why should it? Two other people have already been > referred > > to > > > in the Prophecy, why not again? > > > > > > "born to those" refers to the Potters or the Longbottoms, > according > > to > > > the birthdates of Harry and Neville. Now insert some names, > fitting > > the > > > existing canon, into that bit of the Prophecy. > > > > > > "but he will have a power Voldemort knows not, and either Harry > or > > > Voldemort must die at the hand of the other for neither James > nor > > Lily > > > can live while Harry survives". > > > > > > > > > > Comments please! > > > > > > Kneasy > > > my reply: > you provided an interesting point, Kneasy, and let me see if I can > add some more thoughts to your head. Neither can live while the > other survives, Harry and/or Voldemort while Neville Survives. This > would explain why the Death Eaters went after the Longbottoms after > Voldemort was defeated the first time. Of course it's only > specalation here. Lori True, we're all speculating. I might be gullible, but now that we've reached Book 5, I figure JKR should have given us enough to try and sort things out a bit. So I worked on the principle of Occams Razor ( if you're not familiar with scientific theory, it's the idea that the simplest explanation is probably correct, or at least the closest to the truth). Now, I don't know about you, but there have been times when I've gazed open- mouthed at the complexities of some of the Prophecy theories. We have a choice, either keep it complicated until we know enough to simplify it, or keep it simple until we have to complicate it. I prefer the latter. On the evidence *we have so far* and *assuming we have been told the complete truth* (both phrases should be in Big Letters, underlined three times and highlighted in bright red), then this is the simplest explanation that I can come up with. So, it could be that it foretells: 1. The birth of Harry 2. The necessary death of James and Lily if Harry is to survive 3. The power passed to Harry by their deaths 4. The marking 5. Neville is eliminated as a candidate (his parents don't die as the Prophesy requires) 6. The doubt about the out-come of the battle between H and V There's no doubt that the posters have become highly suspicious of what JKR may get up to and they also love complicated and convoluted reasoning to explain what is going on - in fact if anything simple and straight-forward turned up, I think they would be disappointed and accuse JKR of cheating! Yes, I'm prejudiced towards my own theory; no, I won't dismiss other theories off- hand if they look good, but so far as I know this is the interpretation that comes closest to the Occams Razor criteria. If it gets rubbished by better theorizing or additional information, then so be it. This Harry Potter stuff is hard work sometimes! Kneasy From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Mon Aug 4 10:13:16 2003 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:13:16 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: [edit] >>My question is if while ss and hp are joined by the mind joining spell (the name escapes me) that voldermort could see into his mind too (snapes). This wouldnt be an issue if he wasnt trying to hide something from him (voldermort) like maybe that hes still acting like a DE? and he doesnt want voldermort to know that hes not? the fact that something is said about it usally means it implieas that it means somthing to the plot. << It could very well become an issue. Harry did not, for even one instant, consider the fact that he was *endangering* Snape and the Order by peering at memories Snape did not want him, and *Voldemort through him,* to see. We know Snape touched his wand to his head at least three times. The memory of being bullied by James and Sirius was one of them...what might the other two have been? Perhaps Order-sensitive information? It also doesn't help that Harry brazenly calls Voldemort by his name...the very act seems to draw Voldemort's attention to him (his scar seemed to act up when he did so in front of Snape). If Voldie was in fact lurking while Harry was probing, then it's fair to say that Voldie, at the very least, now has a strong emotional weapon he can use against Snape. BM From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 4 10:17:07 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:17:07 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308041217.07975.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75201 El Lun 04 Ago 2003 11:54, arrowsmithbt escribi?: > Yes, I'm prejudiced towards my own theory; no, I won't dismiss other > theories off- > hand if they look good, but so far as I know this is the > interpretation that comes > closest to the Occams Razor criteria. If it gets rubbished by better > theorizing or > additional information, then so be it. > > This Harry Potter stuff is hard work sometimes! > > Kneasy The problem with this theory is that don't say anything we didn't know yet. If all the question in OoP is that Harry is the chosen one, I'll throw the book to Jo's head. I knew perfectly well before that Harry was the one, so, the prophecy, what for? Unless we can grab new information of it, the prophecy is useless (from a reader's POV). silmariel From subrosax at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 10:31:04 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:31:04 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > This may have been handled in another thread, so excuse me if it has, > but ... just how *is* the wizard government chosen? While it's not > impossible that an idiot like Fudge would be elected democratically > (he makes Jim Hacker of Yes, Minister look like an intellectual), he > seems more like the head of the civil service, but more - in a > democracy, Voldemort wouldn't have to resort to violence, he'd just > have to stand in the next election. He'd wipe the floor with Fudge. I'm just going to say this, then run for cover; If it can happen in the U.S., it can happen anywhere. Doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me. I'm running now!! Gotta go! Allyson From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 10:53:49 2003 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 10:53:49 -0000 Subject: the Prophecy Harry and James as Voldemort's targets Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75203 Ok, in OotP we find out that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry because of Trelawney's first prophecy. So why did Voldemort want to kill James? In SS p294 Voldemort says "I killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight...but your mother needn't have died..." and in book three Harry hears Voldemort saying "Stand aside, stupid girl!" (or something to that effect-not looking at my book at the moment) I have always thought that this meant that Voldemort went there that night specifically intending on killing both James and Harry, and Lily didn't really matter. Yet the prophecy only indicates Harry as the threat, so, logically, Harry should be the only target. I assume that the part that was overheard and communicated to Voldemort was: "The one with the power to vanquish the- Dark Lord approaches born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies" (This is because Voldemort had to have that much information in order to narrow the choice of who it was referring to down to Harry and Neville and I wonder if he heard more, confirming that it was male or if there were females who also fit the parameters if he heard none of the masculine pronouns) This indicates only one individual to be his opponent-the one who is the son of two people who have defied Voldemort three times and born at the end of July. It says nothing about the individuals father being a particular threat. So why was James a target? If Voldemort wished to kill James simply because he was a strong Dumbledore supporter or strong opponent to Voldemort wouldn't he have wanted to kill Lily too because she was just as opposed to Voldemort OotP (or rather the prophecy) indicates that BOTH Lily and James defied Voldemort three times indicating, again to me, that Lily was as dangerous an opponent as her husband. So why would Voldemort be so intent on killing James and not Lily when both seemed to be working hard against him and Harry was the only one mentioned in the prophecy? Random theory on killing James and not Lily-perhaps at the request of Wormtail? If this specific question has been addressed, I apologize and ask that you please direct me to the appropriate posts. Thanks! Kateydidnt From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 4 11:02:49 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:02:49 -0000 Subject: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "loonyloopyrjl" wrote: > I don't think Hermione was being racist or prejudiced when she > referred to centaurs as "horses" to Parvati and Lavender [OoP, > Chapter 27]. Rude, yes, but not necessarily racist or "speciest." > > Hagrid himself (although not known for his tact) referred to the > centaurs as "mules" IN FRONT of the centaurs themselves: > "I won' be kept outta the fores' by a bunch of mules like you!" said > Hagrid. [OoP, Chapter 30] > > And walking away from them, Hagrid says to Harry and Hermione: > "Ruddy old nags though, eh?" [OoP, Chapter 30] > > And back in PS/SS Chapter 15, Bane says of Firenze: > "Have you no shame? Are you a common mule? . . . . It is not our > business to run around like donkeys after stray humans in our forest!" > > I would expect Hagrid, more than anyone else, to be not racist or > prejudiced against other species. He is half-human and imperfect, as > is Hermione, so he will say stupid things. The centaurs, on the other > hand, have no problem insulting their own as mules or donkeys, so I > think it's understood that this is an "acceptable" insult. > > I don't think it's acceptable at all - callling the centaurs "mules" was clearly a serious insult, and intended to be one. "Mules" and "donkeys" - brute animals that serve man, these are considered degrading terms to the centaurs, and I don't think they'd think it was cute that a human girl called them "horses". The fact that Hagrid said what he did seemed to me an indication of how well he knew the "lingo". He picked the term he knew would be the most offensive to his audience, but he at least had the excuse of being insulted first, and he was standing up to his opponents. Hermione just safely despatched her jibe sitting at the breakfast table, and there was no excuse for it, except that she wanted to score off some girls. As I said before, she wouldn't dare say that to a centaur's face, but she'll do it when there's no risk. I'm not developing a theory that Hermione is a secret racist, I'm more concerned with what a line like this is doing in the book. Rowling should have known better, and an editor would have noticed that it was discordant with the larger theme. I think she is getting too indulgent with her characters, and not keeping them disciplined. I'm just not in the mood to think up elaborate excuses for a lazy author. It's illogical to say "Hermione is muggle born; muggle- borns can't be racist; ergo, if she uses a racist term it isn't really racist." I thought the term was offensive, even if Rowling is too enchanted by her creations to notice it. Wanda From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 12:27:34 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 12:27:34 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts/Fawcett=Hufflepuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75205 "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > > > > > Check-out list of our copy of QTTA: > > > > O. Wood ......... 09 April .... Oliver Wood, 5th year in PS/SS > > B. Dunstan ...... 16 May > > M. Flint ........ 22 June ..... Marcus Flint, 6th year in PS/SS > > C. Diggory ...... 02 July ..... Cedric Diggory, 3rd year in PS/SS > > A. Johnson ...... 19 July ..... Angelina Johnson, 3rd year in PS/SS > > E. Macmillan .... 12 August ... Ernie Macmillan, 1st year in PS/SS > > T. Boot ......... 21 August ... Terry Boot, 1st year in PS/SS > > S. Fawcett ...... 16 September 'Claw girl who crossed GoF Age Line > > Now Cindy: > > Isn't Fawcett the Hufflepuff girl that Snape catches behind one of the > rose bushes in GOF? I'm sure she is, and her boyfriend is a Ravenclaw > called Stebbins. > -Cindy Now me: (Tcy): Fawcett does seem to be the one who was caught in the bushes with Stebbins. He is in Hufflepuff, but on page 260 of the American Hardcover Edition , we have Dumbledore saying: "I suggest you both go up to Madam Pomfrey. She is already tending to Miss Fawcett, of Ravenclaw, and Mr. Summers, of Huflepuff, both of whom decided to age themselves up a little too." Hope that clears that part of the mystery up. Tcy From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 12:48:48 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 12:48:48 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" >...you certainly wouldn't > have people being dragged off to that nightmarish place Azkaban > without a trial, as Hagrid was in CoS. (and Sirius - he never had a trial either). ... or people dragged off to military prisons to face a military tribunal - if they even get around to setting it up? Not only do we have foreignersin guantanamo bay, but we also have many in custody who were already in the US, plus at leat 2 US citizens I know of who were at least initially denied access even to a lawyer. While I think the WW is morelike a constitutional monarchy than a democracy, I thinkt he situations cited could just as easily happen in a democracy. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 4 13:05:09 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:05:09 -0000 Subject: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: Hermione > just safely despatched her jibe sitting at the breakfast table, and > there was no excuse for it, except that she wanted to score off some > girls. As I said before, she wouldn't dare say that to a centaur's > face, but she'll do it when there's no risk. I'm not developing a > theory that Hermione is a secret racist, I'm more concerned with > what a line like this is doing in the book. Rowling should have > known better, and an editor would have noticed that it was > discordant with the larger theme. I think she is getting too > indulgent with her characters, and not keeping them disciplined. I'm > just not in the mood to think up elaborate excuses for a lazy > author. And why do you think, that JKR was a lazy author in this case? If I remember correctly, one of the centaurs later asks Hermione if she thinks, that centaurs are just pretty talking horses. So I think it is likely, that JKR wasn't lazy, when Hermione called the centaurs lazy, but that it happened on purpose, and that Hermione later had sort of an comeuppance. Really, I think these books show again and again, that everyone is prejudiced, and that they have to overcome their prejudices. Why should Hermione be an exception? And no, I don't think that JKR is on Hermione's side in this case. Hermy has normally more common sense than Lavender and Parvati, but that doesn't mean, that the readers have to agree with her everytime she has another opinion than the other two girls. Hickengruendler From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 13:49:49 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:49:49 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" > > >...you certainly wouldn't > > have people being dragged off to that nightmarish place Azkaban > > without a trial, as Hagrid was in CoS. > > (and Sirius - he never had a trial either). > > ... or people dragged off to military prisons to face a military > tribunal - if they even get around to setting it up? Not only do we > have foreignersin guantanamo bay, but we also have many in custody > who were already in the US, plus at leat 2 US citizens I know of who > were at least initially denied access even to a lawyer. While I > think the WW is morelike a constitutional monarchy than a democracy, > I thinkt he situations cited could just as easily happen in a > democracy. Laura: Democracy only works if the participants follow the rules. what we have here is a conscious decision by the administration not to do that. So do we now have a functioning democracy? But back on point...it's my understanding that a ministry is an administrative, rather than an elected body. It would be more like the Cabinet departments here than the Congress. So if the Minister of Magic is appointed, the question is, by whom? There must be an executive overseeing all such ministries. The suggestion in the books is that the MoM is a very secret part of the regular British government, in which case it would be under the control of the Prime Minister, right? (Like Tony Blair doesn't have enough on his hands already-or would it still have been Maggie Thatcher?) You don't get the idea from the books that members of the wizarding world vote in regular public elections or even private ones for wizards and witches. The description of the way Fudge came to power was a little hazy on the actual mechanics. You can only imagine what an election campaign would be like in the wizarding world... From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:09:11 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:09:11 -0000 Subject: Fred and George leaving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75209 > Tonks: > Someone was talking about Fred and George leaving school and > something dawned on me. Who is going to the next beaters for the > Gryffindor Quidditch team? > > Dan: > Maybe Dean and Seamus? I'd imagine it'd be two people we know (sort of--we haven't seen much at all of either character), who are close friends, like Fred and George. Then again, it could just as well be Neville and Hermione. > Ginger wonders: Are Kirke and Sloper really all that bad? OK, they each had a miserably bad moment, vs. Hufflepuff. They weren't on the team yet vs. Slytherin and we didn't get to see the Ravenclaw match as Harry and Hermione were paying a social call on Grawp. When Angelina picked them her only comment was that they weren't brilliant, but were better than the other idiots who showed up (not an exact quote, but close). Ron started out less than stellar too, but got better. I'm sure Sloper and Kirke will have to try out again next year, but if the same idiots are their competition, they would have the edge of a bit of experience. Angelina would probably give them another go. After all, she wouldn't let Ron quit even when she was less than impressed with him. Next year's captain may have the same attitude. Ginger, who thinks Ginny and Neville would be a fun pair of beaters, and hopes to see more Quidditch in the next couple of years. With all the chaos promising to ensue, a little normalcy will be welcomed by the characters, if not the readers. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:09:35 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:09:35 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75210 Kevin: > Is it possible that in the year between Harry (and Neville's) births and when LV killed > the Potter's that The Longbottom's went mad and Neville was sent to his > Grandmother's? I can't recall if there is a specified timeline with respect to that, > but.... Crouch Jr and the Lestranges crucio'd the Longbottoms into insanity after Voldemort attacked the Potters. In GoF Dumbledore explains to Harry after Harry sees Crouch Jr in the Pensieve that they were looking for Voldemort and thought the Longbottoms had information on his whereabouts. KathyK From scooting2win at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:31:30 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:31:30 -0000 Subject: Muggle-born teachers In-Reply-To: <3F2DF145.000005.45069@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oh have faith" > wrote: > > Faith's Girl: > > This thought occurred to me in a discussion last night and I was > > interested to know what others thought; > > > > Though there are plenty of students at Hogwarts who are muggle- > born, > > or half-blood, there doesn't seem to be an *adult* character who is > > anything but pureblood. The only exceptions I can think of is > > Nymphadora Tonks, who we learn in OOP is a half-blood with a muggle > > father, and Tom Riddle, who got a mundane muggle name to go with > his > > muggle ancestory. > > > > In CoS, Malfoy is talking about the Chamber being open and how the all the > Muggle-borns and half-bloods would be, I guess expunged would be the best > word, from Hogwarts and he does go on to say the McGonagall will be one of > the first ones to go. When I read that I immediately thought that maybe she > could be muggle-born or half-blood? He said also that she was filling in for > someone. I wonder who that was? > Lisa > I don't remember seeing where Malfoy said that McGonagall would be one of the first. of course I don't have the book sitting right here either. But I thought when he said she was filling in I could swear that was for Dumbledore, but who knows maybe she is filling in for Dumbledore's wife, you know the Deputy Headmistress. JKR said that we will know about the spouses soon. I hope real soon. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:31:49 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:31:49 -0000 Subject: Muggle-born teachers In-Reply-To: <3F2DF145.000005.45069@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oh have faith" > wrote: > > Faith's Girl: > > This thought occurred to me in a discussion last night and I was > > interested to know what others thought; > > > > Though there are plenty of students at Hogwarts who are muggle- > born, > > or half-blood, there doesn't seem to be an *adult* character who is > > anything but pureblood. The only exceptions I can think of is > > Nymphadora Tonks, who we learn in OOP is a half-blood with a muggle > > father, and Tom Riddle, who got a mundane muggle name to go with > his > > muggle ancestory. > > > > In CoS, Malfoy is talking about the Chamber being open and how the all the > Muggle-borns and half-bloods would be, I guess expunged would be the best > word, from Hogwarts and he does go on to say the McGonagall will be one of > the first ones to go. When I read that I immediately thought that maybe she > could be muggle-born or half-blood? He said also that she was filling in for > someone. I wonder who that was? > Lisa > I don't remember seeing where Malfoy said that McGonagall would be one of the first. of course I don't have the book sitting right here either. But I thought when he said she was filling in I could swear that was for Dumbledore, but who knows maybe she is filling in for Dumbledore's wife, you know the Deputy Headmistress. JKR said that we will know about the spouses soon. I hope real soon. Lori From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:44:02 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:44:02 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "backstagemystic" wrote: > Harry did not, for even one instant, consider the fact that he was > *endangering* Snape and the Order by peering at memories Snape did > not want him, and *Voldemort through him,* to see. > > We know Snape touched his wand to his head at least three times. The > memory of being bullied by James and Sirius was one of them...what > might the other two have been? Perhaps Order-sensitive information? > > It also doesn't help that Harry brazenly calls Voldemort by his > name...the very act seems to draw Voldemort's attention to him (his > scar seemed to act up when he did so in front of Snape). > > If Voldie was in fact lurking while Harry was probing, then it's fair > to say that Voldie, at the very least, now has a strong emotional > weapon he can use against Snape. I've been thinking about the Pensieve scenes. In the first, Harry enters DD's thoughts because is was left on a shelf in a cabinet with the door ajar. DD claims that he placed it there hastily when Fudge arrived, but I don't really buy that. If it really is true, why would he put it away hastily - perhaps Pensieves are contraband, and he didn't want Fudge to know he uses one? Then there's Snape. I don't buy that this was Snape's worst memory - remember, everything is from Harry's perspective, so maybe that's the chapter name because Harry assumes Snapes doesn't want him to see these memories. But that begs the question of why Snape didn't put these memories into the Pensieve and lock it away even before Harry arrived? I suspect it served Snapes purpose in 2 parts - it was information he wanted Harry to find, but also it would give him a reason to yell at him when he did view the memories. If he knew Harry knew what the pensieve was, he should have put it away; if he didn't he had to know Harry would be curious. Maybe Snape wanted Harry to understand why he hates James so much, and that he sees Harry becoming just like him. Otherwise, we should consider WHY this memory was one he wanted to protect? Was it the Owls, his treatment of Lily? Melinda From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:44:59 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:44:59 -0000 Subject: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: <200308041115.41099.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > I fear no one is going to agree with me, but I don't think Hermione belongs to > Ravenclaw. The SHat didn't take much time to sort her, so it decided quickly > she was G, even if allowing time for the doubt. Yes I agree that she doesn't belong to Ravenclaw just as Harry doesn't belong to Slytherin, but she says specifically in ootp that the sorting hat seriously had thoughts about putting her with the ravenclaws. If anything I think it didn't take as long to sort her like it did with Seamus, Harry and Neville because she had already made her choice during the train trip to Hogwarts when she had her first conversation with Ron and Harry. Neville probably also had the same choice as Harry and Hermione except he probably had the choice of Hufflepuff and Gryffindor. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 14:51:49 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:51:49 -0000 Subject: Phoenix Song & There's No Redemption (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75215 Sondheim songs are usually difficult to filk due to their length and their intricate rhythms and rhyme schemes. One exception is The Cookie Song, a four-line ditty sung by the clientele of Dr. Detmold's Sanitarium for the Socially Pressured (aka The Cookie Jar) The Phoenix Song To the tune of The Cookie Song (I'm Like the Bluebird) from Sondheim's Anyone Can Whistle HARRY: I'm like the Phoenix I dissolve in smoke and ash When I let my temper flash I'm like the Phoenix . OK, now here's a full-length filk from the same musical. This was inspired in part by the Nimbus 2003 panel discussion "Can Draco Be Redeemed?" held on July 18. I dedicate this to the anti-redemption members of that panel, as well as to fellow-Sondheim fans Lori & JDR There's No Redemption To the tune of There Won't Be Trumpets from Sondheim's Anyone Can Whistle THE SCENE: Divination Class, at the beginning of Year Six, with TRELAWNEY back on the job. Before the startled Gryffindor class, she suddenly goes rigid in her armchair, her eyes roll & unfocus, her mouth sags, as she begins to speak in a deep harsh voice, quite unlike her own: Yes, Sibyll is about to deliver her third Genuine Prediction! TRELAWNEY: That bad little boy in his bad little dorm He forgot one thing: This story isn't his by a long shot yet! There are heroes in these books Saviors and heroes in these books Not one of them's named Draco There's no way! There's no way! There's no redemption, no sudden plot twist To show he's changing. No new nuances, no clues that we've missed, No cataclysmic Banging. He will not be the catalyst. One-dimension, he's a foil For young Potter, just the same as Crabbe and Goyle. But no redemption in scenes dramatic Or swift conversion. He won't develop, he remains static, There's no upgraded version. Fans may say, wait another year He has two more books to go But our Draco, Hasn't he shown he cannot grow? Don't look for shipping or slashing romance To help redeem him! He won't win Hermy, and Harry ? fat chance - No tryst in leather jeans, then. I know when, I know where, So I won't even say don't ask us! What I know is, that git will not trek Towards Damascus! He won't be redeemed! There's no redemption! For damned Draco! (After coming out of her trance, TRELAWNEY awards 10 points to Gryffindor in appreciation of the standing ovation they give her.) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated 8/2/03 with 65 new filks) From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 15:00:24 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:00:24 -0000 Subject: Hitler and Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lea" wrote: > I've been thinking about this for a while but I've never asked > anyone about it. I'm not sure if this has or hasn't been discussed, > so please forgive me if it has, I'm still new here. > There are a lot of similarities between Hitler and Voldemort. > There are the more obvious ones like: hate for mudbloods (Jews), > Death Eaters (Nazis), wanting to take over the world and have only > one perfect race (purebloods), etc. But there are some that are > somewhat hidden, similarities like: Voldemort's father was a muggle > (Hitler's mother was Jewish) and the war in the books is like World > War 2. I was wondering if there are other similarities between the > two? Sof: Both are very charismatic fanatics. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 15:08:45 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:08:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030804150845.59537.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75217 --- oh have faith wrote: . > > > And I say: > > It's worth noting that Percy had absolutely no > success in curbing the > activities of Fred and George either, and he being > the older brother > should technically have more influence. At the end > of the day, Fred > and George just wouldn't have recognised that Ron > had any authority > over them, they would have roared with laughter if > he'd even tried. > Ron was put in a very difficult decision here - it > was an absolute > lose-lose situation. He could either do nothing and > let the other > prefects handle it. Or he could take on his > brothers, get laughed > out the building, probably be on the recieving end > of a nasty spell > or two, and so lose any respect that anyone in the > common room might > have had for his authority. Sorry, I don't buy it. He had a responsibility to try. You can't get around that. It is wrong to allow and condone rampant rule-breaking (without good reason like saving lives). Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 15:13:29 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 08:13:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030804151329.60171.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75218 --- C M wrote: > > Seriously, I'm not sure why people feel a need to > point to Ron and > Hermione's contrasting behaviors toward Harry and > pronounce them > right and wrong (or good and bad) respectively. > Hermione is the Yin > to Ron's Yang. She scrutinizes, second-guesses and > occasionally nags. > He commiserates, encourages, supports and, when > needed, tells > Hermione to back off. Is it so hard to admit that > they're *both* good > friends to Harry? That they *both* care about him? > That they *both* > fill voids in his life? I just don't get why it has > to be either/or. I agree with you completely. > > And regarding Ron as a Prefect, I'm (surprise, > surprise) with the > camp that says we know too little about what he's > done to assess how > well he's fulfilling his responsibilities. I don't > think that we (or > Hermione for that matter) should have expected him > to discipline F&G. > As far as we know, there are five prefects in that > house that aren't > Weasleys; nothing's stopping them from "pulling > rank" on the twins > when necessary. I don't see anyone calling for the > four unnamed 6th & > 7th year Gryffindor prefects to have their badges > stripped when, come > to think of it, we haven't heard about them doing > *anything*. Or > maybe it's just that the Harry-vision in which > things are presented > to us doesn't bother to cover boring things like > prefects satisfying > the day to day requirements of their job. > > CM > Gotta disagree here. Even exluding his behavior with F&G he didn't do the job. During OWLS he was going to buy one of those intelligence-boosting potions, instead of stopping the sale of them. And he didn't even bother to see if the potions were legitimate. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From music4masses at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 15:16:31 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (music4masses) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:16:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What's behind the veil ? Another chance for Sirius ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804105602.00a73c90@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75219 At 06:16 PM 8/3/2003, you wrote: >However, was I alone in thinking that the arch and the veil concepts >had parallels with Lord of the Rings ? Remember Aragorn, using his >rights as the future king, riding through a scary archway into the >Halls of the Dead, and asking the dead to fulfil their promise, and >come and help save the day at the battle for Minas Tirith ? I wonder >if a host of the 'dead' (or however you want to describe the state of >those beyond the veil), will be asked to play a role in the final >defeat of Voldemort, a bit like the prior incantem forms coming out >the wands and helping Harry in GoF ? And Sirius might lead the >charge, as it were. Interesting thought. If you were alone before, you might not be now. I don't see JKR ripping the concept directly, of course, but she could put her own unique spin on it. Sirius wouldn't be "back" per se, but there would be finality and closure. He would be able to contribute. Ditto Harry's parents. I wonder all of whom would come back. Would Godric Gryffindor be among them? Cedric? I guess I'm expecting her ending to be pretty intense and bittersweet like this, as was the ending of LOTR. Still, I'm not sure Harry has to die (Aragorn didn't until later), but who knows. Thanks for bringing it up. Erin From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Mon Aug 4 15:23:03 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:23:03 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > Then there's Snape. I don't buy that this was Snape's worst memory - > remember, everything is from Harry's perspective, so maybe that's the > chapter name because Harry assumes Snapes doesn't want him to see > these memories. But that begs the question of why Snape didn't put > these memories into the Pensieve and lock it away even before Harry > arrived? I suspect it served Snapes purpose in 2 parts - it was > information he wanted Harry to find, but also it would give him a > reason to yell at him when he did view the memories. I don't think Snape wanted Harry to see that memory... simply judging by his reaction upon finding Harry in it. If he really had been trying to make Harry sneak into the Pensieve, I think he would at least have been able to stick to his usual nastiness instead of being downright mad with anger. As for why he didn't put his memories away before Harry arrived, I can only guess that it could have something to do with the timing, that there was something he needed to remember during the beginning of lesson. That would of course be something from the other two memories, I don't think James & Sirius taunting him had anything to do with teaching Occlumency... > Otherwise, we should consider WHY this memory was one he wanted to > protect? Was it the Owls, his treatment of Lily? Oh, I believe the humiliation of it all was enough to want to keep the event a secret. I don't know, I have this idea of Snape wanting to keep up an image of himself where humiliation and any kind of vulnerability really don't have a place. He just seems to be the kind of person who would react *very strongly* to being humiliated. evangelina From clio44a at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 15:34:41 2003 From: clio44a at yahoo.com (clio44a) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:34:41 -0000 Subject: Hitler and Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lea" wrote: > I've been thinking about this for a while but I've never asked > anyone about it. I'm not sure if this has or hasn't been discussed, > so please forgive me if it has, I'm still new here. > There are a lot of similarities between Hitler and Voldemort. > There are the more obvious ones like: hate for mudbloods (Jews), > Death Eaters (Nazis), wanting to take over the world and have only > one perfect race (purebloods), etc. But there are some that are > somewhat hidden, similarities like: Voldemort's father was a muggle > (Hitler's mother was Jewish) and the war in the books is like World > War 2. I was wondering if there are other similarities between the > two? I don't have a thread at hand to prove it, but I'm quite sure other people were drawing this parallele before and discussing it. The master-race (purebloods/aryan)idea surely suggests this comparison. I don't really want to get into this. Just a warning: if you are starting a discussion on such an emotion-loaden topic, you might want to carefully double-check what you are saying. As far as I know the Hitler's mother being Jewish is an Urban Legend. Also could you maybe explain how the war in the book (which one, the first or second V.mort war?) is similar to WWII? I surely missed that in the books. Clio From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 4 15:47:35 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:47:35 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308041747.35450.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75222 El Lun 04 Ago 2003 16:44, greatelderone escribi?: > but she says specifically in ootp that > the sorting hat seriously had thoughts about putting her with the > ravenclaws. > If anything I think it didn't take as long to sort her > like it did with Seamus, Harry and Neville because she had already > made her choice during the train trip to Hogwarts when she had her > first conversation with Ron and Harry. Warning: ESL and problably not much clear. I knew that, I just doubt her memory. As we haven't read the actual conversation, I'd like to know exactly how 'serious' was the SH. Yes, I doubt her memory. I repeat she studies too hard to be really brilliant. My cousin is licensed in mathematics (doctor), physics (doctor) and chemistry and I know she studied about 3-4 months a year, study became a full job only for doctorates. Of course, she didn't open a book as a teenager. I'm just a system analist (three years), but I don't think I've ever studied more than 7 days for one 6-month College subject (and that's my upper limit). Hermione shouldn't have a problem at all taking ten subjects at a time, she studies too hard. silmariel From malinit at excite.com Mon Aug 4 16:09:47 2003 From: malinit at excite.com (malinitosetti) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:09:47 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" > wrote: > > Then there's Snape. I don't buy that this was Snape's worst memory > - > > remember, everything is from Harry's perspective, so maybe that's > the > > chapter name because Harry assumes Snapes doesn't want him to see > > these memories. But that begs the question of why Snape didn't put > > these memories into the Pensieve and lock it away even before Harry > > arrived? I suspect it served Snapes purpose in 2 parts - it was > > information he wanted Harry to find, but also it would give him a > > reason to yell at him when he did view the memories. > > > I don't think Snape wanted Harry to see that memory... simply judging > by his reaction > upon finding Harry in it. If he really had been trying to make Harry > sneak into the > Pensieve, I think he would at least have been able to stick to his > usual nastiness > instead of being downright mad with anger. As for why he didn't put > his memories > away before Harry arrived, I can only guess that it could have > something to do with > the timing, that there was something he needed to remember during the > beginning of > lesson. That would of course be something from the other two > memories, I don't > think James & Sirius taunting him had anything to do with teaching > Occlumency... > > > Otherwise, we should consider WHY this memory was one he wanted to > > protect? Was it the Owls, his treatment of Lily? > > Oh, I believe the humiliation of it all was enough to want to keep > the event a secret. I > don't know, I have this idea of Snape wanting to keep up an image of > himself where > humiliation and any kind of vulnerability really don't have a place. > He just seems to be > the kind of person who would react *very strongly* to being > humiliated. > > evangelina Well, when I read this chapter, I just had the impression that Snape put this memory in the pensieve before starting the lesson with Harry just to avoid thinking about his hate towards James while having to teach something important to his son... I don't know, just my impression... Mali From EnsTren at aol.com Mon Aug 4 16:35:04 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:35:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments Message-ID: <137.23455ed1.2c5fe538@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75224 In a message dated 8/4/2003 7:04:12 AM Eastern Daylight Time, wsherratt3338 at rogers.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "loonyloopyrjl" > wrote: > >I don't think Hermione was being racist or prejudiced when she > >referred to centaurs as "horses" to Parvati and Lavender [OoP, > >Chapter 27]. Rude, yes, but not necessarily racist or "speciest." > > > >Hagrid himself (although not known for his tact) referred to the > >centaurs as "mules" IN FRONT of the centaurs themselves: > >"I won' be kept outta the fores' by a bunch of mules like you!" > said > >Hagrid. [OoP, Chapter 30] > > > >And walking away from them, Hagrid says to Harry and Hermione: > >"Ruddy old nags though, eh?" [OoP, Chapter 30] > > > >And back in PS/SS Chapter 15, Bane says of Firenze: > >"Have you no shame? Are you a common mule? . . . . It is not our > >business to run around like donkeys after stray humans in our > forest!" > > > >I would expect Hagrid, more than anyone else, to be not racist or > >prejudiced against other species. He is half-human and imperfect, > as > >is Hermione, so he will say stupid things. The centaurs, on the > other > >hand, have no problem insulting their own as mules or donkeys, so > I > >think it's understood that this is an "acceptable" insult. > > > > > I don't think it's acceptable at all - callling the centaurs "mules" > was clearly a serious insult, and intended to be one. "Mules" > and "donkeys" - brute animals that serve man, these are considered > degrading terms to the centaurs, and I don't think they'd think it > was cute that a human girl called them "horses". The fact that > Hagrid said what he did seemed to me an indication of how well he > knew the "lingo". He picked the term he knew would be the most > offensive to his audience, but he at least had the excuse of being > insulted first, and he was standing up to his opponents. I most heartiedly agree. Centaurs calling eachother mules is very diffrent than a human calling them as such. Why? Well we have a muggle equivlent here in real life! Black people calling each other niggers. Yes! It happens! I've heard it! And they use it both negativly, neutrally, and positivly! If I did the same thing I'd get popped one, with a gun most likely. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkscherme at adelphia.net Mon Aug 4 16:49:53 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:49:53 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "malinitosetti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" > > wrote: > > > Then there's Snape. I don't buy that this was Snape's worst > memory > > - > > > remember, everything is from Harry's perspective, so maybe that's > > the > > > chapter name because Harry assumes Snapes doesn't want him to see > > > these memories. But that begs the question of why Snape didn't > put > > > these memories into the Pensieve and lock it away even before > Harry > > > arrived? I suspect it served Snapes purpose in 2 parts - it was > > > information he wanted Harry to find, but also it would give him a > > > reason to yell at him when he did view the memories. > > > > > > I don't think Snape wanted Harry to see that memory... simply > judging > > by his reaction > > upon finding Harry in it. If he really had been trying to make Harry > > sneak into the > > Pensieve, I think he would at least have been able to stick to his > > usual nastiness > > instead of being downright mad with anger. As for why he didn't put > > his memories > > away before Harry arrived, I can only guess that it could have > > something to do with > > the timing, that there was something he needed to remember during > the > > beginning of > > lesson. That would of course be something from the other two > > memories, I don't > > think James & Sirius taunting him had anything to do with teaching > > Occlumency... > > > > > Otherwise, we should consider WHY this memory was one he wanted > to > > > protect? Was it the Owls, his treatment of Lily? > > > > Oh, I believe the humiliation of it all was enough to want to keep > > the event a secret. I > > don't know, I have this idea of Snape wanting to keep up an image of > > himself where > > humiliation and any kind of vulnerability really don't have a place. > > He just seems to be > > the kind of person who would react *very strongly* to being > > humiliated. > > > > evangelina > > > Well, when I read this chapter, I just had the impression that Snape > put this memory in the pensieve before starting the lesson with Harry > just to avoid thinking about his hate towards James while having to > teach something important to his son... I don't know, just my > impression... > > Mali Well, said! It's simple, obvious and in character. In order to conduct the lessons, Snape needed to be self-composed and focused. I doubt he could have accomplished that with the unpleasant memories of Harry's father lurking around in his head. Marvelous device the Pensieve...wouldn't mind having one of those myself! From laxer26 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 16:50:12 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:50:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? Message-ID: <20030804165012.64345.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75226 "sbursztynski" wrote: This may have been handled in another thread, so excuse me if it has, but ... just how *is* the wizard government chosen? While it's not impossible that an idiot like Fudge would be elected democratically (he makes Jim Hacker of Yes, Minister look like an intellectual), he seems more like the head of the civil service, but more - in a democracy, Voldemort wouldn't have to resort to violence, he'd just have to stand in the next election. He'd wipe the floor with Fudge. Allyson I'm just going to say this, then run for cover; If it can happen in the U.S., it can happen anywhere. Doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me. I'm running now!! Gotta go! Laxer: If your are taking that shot, what about the wonderfull Florida voters who couldnt figure out what hole to punch? Third graders were able to figure out how to use the ballots I beleive. Laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Mon Aug 4 16:57:36 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:57:36 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75227 "meltowne" wrote: But that begs the question of why Snape didn't put these memories into the Pensieve and lock it away even before Harry arrived? I (evangelina) replied: As for why he didn't put his memories away before Harry arrived, I can only guess that it could have something to do with the timing, that there was something he needed to remember during the beginning of lesson. That would of course be something from the other two memories, I don't think James & Sirius taunting him had anything to do with teaching Occlumency... Mali then answered: > Well, when I read this chapter, I just had the impression that Snape > put this memory in the pensieve before starting the lesson with Harry > just to avoid thinking about his hate towards James while having to > teach something important to his son... I don't know, just my > impression... Interesting. :) I reread the chapter to see if there really was anything to support my "timing" speculation in there, and Snape waits (which all of you probably already realised ;)) until it's time for the practical lesson, to remove his memories. So if it really was his feelings for James he wanted to have put aside, then he didn't care about having it in the way while explaining the theory of Occlumency, but at least got them out of the way when it was time for practice. And I don't know, but to me it seems that he was a little nicer after using the Pensieve. He didn't point it out that Harry wasn't calling him "sir", there was some credit for Harry's achievement (although as a near-insult, "that was not as poor as it might have been"), and there were not as many nasty comments as before (such as calling Harry a "lamentable potion-maker", implying that his mind isn't complex, etc...). Maybe this post is as incoherent as I imagined the last one to be, my mind is a haze today. :) evangelina From alaskamy at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 17:02:58 2003 From: alaskamy at hotmail.com (kneazelkid) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:02:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's 16th birthday Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75228 Very small, thought: Is the driving age in the UK the same as in the US? If so, I was thinking that Harry might receive the giant flying mototcycle on which Hagrid delivered him to the Dursley's (It belonged to Sirius). Wouldn't that be cool? Harry on a motorcycle -- then all he'd need was a leather cloak (har har) --kneazelkid From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 17:10:49 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:10:49 -0000 Subject: Harry's 16th birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazelkid" wrote: > Very small, thought: Is the driving age in the UK the same as in the > US? If so, I was thinking that Harry might receive the giant flying > mototcycle on which Hagrid delivered him to the Dursley's (It > belonged to Sirius). Wouldn't that be cool? Harry on a motorcycle -- > then all he'd need was a leather cloak (har har) > --kneazelkid But not that size of bike. You can start on a motorbike at 16 but the engine size is strictly limited.... From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 4 06:00:04 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 02:00:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Men from the Ministry References: <3F1B434D.2020803@mail.ptd.net> <1168125007.20030723145949@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <3F2DF664.4020609@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75230 Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > Sunday, July 20, 2003, 6:35:09 PM, T.M. Sommers wrote: > > TMS> That implies the existence of a > TMS> Permanent Under Secretary of State for Magic. We have not yet > TMS> met this person, but I hope we do, for I would love to see the > TMS> wizarding equivalent of Sir Humphrey Appleby. > > So would I :) -- I *can* see Humphrey saying to Percy, "Well done > Percy, you'll be a moral vacuum yet!" That's good. I fear, though, that Percy has gone beyond vacuumhood. > But just for kicks, compare these two statements: > > "There is no good and evil -- There is only power, and those too weak > to seek it." -- Lord Voldemort > > "As far as I'm concerned, Minister, there is no difference between > means and ends." -- Sir Humphrey Appleby > > (Do I detect kindred ideologies??) > I can well imagine Humpy saying, "There is no good and evil. There is only power, and those unfit to wield it, such as football hooligans, Fleet Street editors, back-bench MPs, and Cabinet ministers." But I can't see Voldemort as a civil servant. From acoteucla at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 17:22:10 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:22:10 -0000 Subject: the Prophecy Harry and James as Voldemort's targets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kateydidnt2002" wrote: > I have always thought that this meant that Voldemort went there that > night specifically intending on killing both James and Harry, and > Lily didn't really matter. Yet the prophecy only indicates Harry as > the threat, so, logically, Harry should be the only target. My favored theory to explain this assumes that Lupin is Ever So Evil. Lupin is in love with Lily, and hates James because of that. He decides to strike a deal with Voldemort: Lupin will betray the Potters', if Voldemort agrees not to kill Lily. If all goes according to plan, Lupin will offer a shoulder to cry on for the grieving widow, and before you know it, Lily falls in love with ESE! Lupin. This is a very good deal for Voldemort, because it nets him a top spy in the Order, and pulls down James, a top member in the Order. So Voldemort agrees to this bargain. At the end of PoA, everyone assumes that Peter is the one who has been passing information to Voldemort for over a year before he finally catches up with the Potters. But what if instead it was LUPIN who was passing that information? Lupin betrays the Potters three times, leading to their three narrow escapes from Voldemort. Finally, the Potters decide to get a secret-keeper. Don't forget that Sirius convinces James to switch to Peter as secret-keeper at the last second BECAUSE HE SUSPECTS LUPIN! What reasons did they have for suspecting Lupin? Maybe they were good reasons! Upon being entrusted as the Potters' secret-keeper, Peter decides to use this opportunity to switch to the "winning side". It will immediately gain him an important position amongst the death-eaters. Peter betrays the Potters (James makes some really questionable friendships!), and Voldemort finally catches up with the Potters. He kills James, of course, but offers to let Lily live, in honor of the original agreement with Lupin. Voldemort's Slytherin-training comes to forefront, however, when Lily is "too stupid" to save her own skin. He kills her in disgust before turning on Harry. From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 17:40:09 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:40:09 -0000 Subject: If you can't see where it keeps its brain... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75232 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > > > The Map worried me, too. When Snape confronts Lupin about it, not > only does he correctly deduce where it came from, he says that it is > plainly full of Dark Magic (don't have his exact words, sorry, book > not handy). Is he just being histrionic, or is he right? I always > wondered just how James & Co. actually made the Map, especially if > it took Dark Magic to do so. You'd think Snape would be quite an > expert on Dark Arts, and would recognize it when he sees it. > > Wanda I didn't take Snape's comment that literally - I looked at it more as Snape trying to get Harry in trouble for something. But maybe there is more there. As for the "where it keeps its brain" comment, I felt much better about the map once we knew who had made it - its "brain" was that of the four Marauders, and if I was Harry, I would be quite content to trust something made by my father. mhershey From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 17:58:36 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:58:36 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - my 'we are the world' theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75233 The prophecy: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." After agonizing over the 'either' line and the whole Harry/Neville thing for a long time, I started to pay a little more attention to the "he will have power the Dark Lord knows not" line. My thought is the power Harry has that Voldy knows not is his ability to bring people together. Voldy is a powerful dark wizard and he has loyal subjects in his DEs, but Voldy is a selfish *beep* and so are his followers. They only come together in an attempt to take power for themselves. They are very nazi-esque and have built a sense of entitlement around putting down/contolling everyone else. DEs are loyal only to themselves and Voldy, being the biggest bully in the playground, is just a means to an end. I believe this selfishness may be their downfall - this is where harry may come in. Harry lives because of selflessness. His mother sacrificed her life to save him and now her love protects him. I suggest that this love is not just around him but inside of him as well. Harry obviously has his father's rebellious nature but he also has his mother in him as well (he looks like his father but has his mother's eyes). His mother stood up for Snape (who called her mudblood) because james' treatment of him was wrong. This is only a small glimpse of lily's character and her compassion for others, but i think it says a lot about her. Two of harry's biggest mentors also have this quality. Dumbledore is a kind of magic-ambassador and Hagrid has this ability with monsters/magical creatures. Both of their influences on Harry may be exactly what harry needs. Harry has also never won a battle without help/support from people who cared for him - directly or indirectly. The themes of loyalty and trust also seem to come up in all of the books. V was only able to get to the Potter's because of disloyalty. Hermione and Ron's trust and loyalty when it comes to Harry has been invaluable to him. I also thought about the fountain in the MoM. Harry realized it was a false rerpresentation of the magic world - I think Harry has the ability to make that image a reality through his alliances (Dumbledore, Dobby, Firenze, Hagrid,Fleur?, (dare i say the Dursley's?)...) and his friendships (D's army, especially the 5 who risked their lives to help him at the end of OotP). I don't think either Harry or Voldy will see this 'power' as a strength. Voldy doesn't put a value on any life other than his own and Harry, with his newly developed hero-complex, is convinced he must face Voldy alone - this i believe may be a huge mistake and lead him right into Voldy's hands.I believe the real final battle perhaps won't be a huge violent bloodbath but instead a battle within harry. I see harry becoming more of a loner in book 6 and that puts him in real danger. Speaking of hands, i think the line "and either must die at the hand of the other..." may not mean that one has to kill the other directly. I think that Harry's action may be what defeats the Dark Lord - bringing everyone together to defeat him is the action I'm thinking of. I doubt those that love and support him will let him face Voldy alone. All will come to save Harry and thus save themselves. If their is any truth to this theory, I'd love to see Harry bring the true hero out of neville, see Mrs. Dursley finally acknowledge her sister, and see what will finally make Snape and Harry see eye-to-eye. I don't have any specifics or details to support or enhance this theory - I am only now rereading the books for the 1st time and some of the details are still a little hazy - I appologize for this (and the length of this post). I just wanted to put the idea out there and see what other people thought. The whole idea is not original and it is very 'we are the world' cheesy, but I have to admit I love that song. Bring on the cheese! -QoE From KLMF at aol.com Mon Aug 4 18:00:36 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (klmf1) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:00:36 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75234 My utmost apologies in advance if this has been thought of before... I was listening to the OotP for the umpteenth time this morning and something struck me a little differently than before.....Percy's letter to Ron where he congratulates Ron for becoming prefect and then advises him to drop Harry as a friend and be loyal to the ministry....(Am.version, pg.296-298)I know it's been suspected that Percy might be a spy for the Order. But can it be possible that he's actually under the Imperious curse, not by Fudge, but by Umbridge? After all, Percy seems a very swayable personality where his own advancement is concerned, not inclined to question authority, so wouldn't fight the curse, and we already know that Umbridge is capable of using Unforgiveable Curses. Percy refers to Umbridge as a "really delightful woman", which I find hard to stomach under any circumstances.And he seems to have had, and continues to have, quite a bit of contact with her.Could it have been her who convinced him to write that letter in the first place? Karen F From colleenbuch at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 00:17:27 2003 From: colleenbuch at yahoo.com (thehighinquisitorofhogwarts) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 00:17:27 -0000 Subject: Luna and Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75235 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tonksramsey" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "american_pie8887" > wrote: > > I was reading a quote about Lupin and it was Peeves calling > > him "Loony loopy Lupin" (somewhere in PoA, can't remember the page > > number) but i just found that to be very interesting, because i'm > not > > mistaken, Luna is often called "loony" or "loopy" > > > > any thoughts? > > ~~Mags > > Maybe they have a familial connection that has yet to be disclosed. > Cousin's possibly? I see Luna playing a more important role it > future books as well. > Tonks In addition note the names, Luna... lunar, similar to Moony From hlynn at kconline.com Sun Aug 3 21:20:55 2003 From: hlynn at kconline.com (shwanalynn) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 21:20:55 -0000 Subject: Ollivander = An Evil Lord In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75236 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goens001" > wrote: > bboy_mn said: > > To believe that Ollivander is evil is unthinkable. > > And while I refuse to accept it, the anagram is pretty cool;very > observant of someone. > > But still, Ollivander is one of the good guys, and I will take that > belief to my grave. > > now me (Cindy): > > Ollivander is an Evil Lord, though he is also: > 1. A devil lorn > 2. A droll vine > 3. Vidal Loner > 4. Vile Ronald (reminds me of Weasley, ha ha ha!) > 5. Nail Dr. Love > 6. All red Vino. > > a man of many faces, Mr. Ollivander is! > -Cindy (still smirking). shwanalynn: Ha Ha! That is so funny! I still have tears in my eyes. I really like Ollivander. He seems to know so much about everything. There has to be a story behind him. How in the world did he know what Lily did with her wand, and how does he automatically recall her when Harry walks in, before being introduced? It doesn't seem like Ollivander is close enough to be able to see Harry's scar when he acknowledges him. That's beyond having an uncanny memory for the wands you sell. I don't know, maybe there's nothing more to him than selling wands, but he fascinates me. And I think Harry's meeting him is one of the most well-written passages in all the books. So Nice!Ollivander has my vote, too. From redramsey at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 4 01:42:20 2003 From: redramsey at bellsouth.net (tonksramsey) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 01:42:20 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <002001c35a24$c28f4e80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > > From: oh have faith > > Dawn says: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" > wrote: > > I'm too lack-of-sleep befuddled to figure out where I read this, > but someone recently made comment about Loony Luna not being on the > train at the end of the academic year, and would students be allowed > to wander around Hogwarts during the Summer Holidays? Would there > still be any staff around? > > I say: > > Sybil Trelawny claims that Hogwarts is her home, so presumably she > lives there all year round; perhaps a significant number of other > teachers do, as well. A fair number of them are always around > throughout all the other holidays, easter, christmas etc. If they > had homes and families to go to, you'd think they would go for > Christmas lunch at least, but Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Trelawny > all seem pretty much ever present. > > Faith's Girl > > ------------- > > That's the conclusion I'd come to as well, although I was more pointing out the canon evidence of both students and a member of staff being in Hogwarts during the holidays as a reply to their original query. It still leaves me with the question of just what were the boys doing there outside termtime AND before they were officially pupils? > > Dawn > I dont know about students staying at Hogwarts at the end of term. Luna was packing to go home. Remember she ran into Harry in the hall. SHe was posting a sign asking people to return her things. As far as Ernie Macmillian is concerned; he is one of the DA members that jinxed Crabbe, Malfoy, and Goyle on the train ride home. Maybe the August date were an oversight? Tonks > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Oboek8 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 03:20:32 2003 From: Oboek8 at aol.com (Oboek8 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 23:20:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges Message-ID: <105.33e110b6.2c5f2b00@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75238 >Hermione: Harry, you just drank an entire keg of beer. Give me >your keys. > >Ron: Stop bugging Harry, Hermione; he can make his own decisions. > >Which is the better friend? What kind of beer? Butterbeer :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Mon Aug 4 07:47:15 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:47:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius' exit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" > wrote: > > > > Dunno if he really died. If he did, then JRK has little respect for > > him, since his death was due to his carelessness, and that's not the > > way I would think he'd die. Plus, it appears that he went into the > > veil alive, since he wasn't hit with an unforgivable, if I recall the > > colors correctly. Somehow I think that the mirror he gave Harry will > > hold some secrets for him later. JMHO. > > > Yeah. Sirius's death sort of bothers me too. He just sort of > tripped and fell and landed wrong. I've only read OotP once and I > hate to sound like a heretic, but I didnt think it was that good. > I liked the parts about Professor Umbridge and the corrupt Ministry > of Magic and the yellow press, but overall it was kind of incoherent, > I think. I was also really disappointed with the cliche "big fight scene" at > the end,featuring a bunch of underdeveloped characters like Tonks. > Even Ginny and Neville and Luna were confusing. There must have been > 10 or 20 people in that place, all blasting away with wands. Plus the > whole prophecy problem could have been solved a lot easier. I'm > reading the whole series again from the beginning, maybe OotP will be > better the second time around. I agree with you. It was way too dark, and Harry and a few others seemed OOC to me. The death was a let down, and wasn't handled the way it should've been. Sirius' death seemed a total waste, and not the way he should've died. I haven't tried to re-read it yet, because it left such a bad impression on me the first time. And now that I;ve seen that JRK took so long because she was writing another book, under an alias really rubs me the wrong way. This book does seem thrown together, without much thought at all. One thing that was good, was at least now we know why Arthur was going to the prison. That was something that had bothered me from the beginning, since why would he need to go there, and now we know. Also, I'm curious about all these family ties. Will we be getting another shock later? The Harry/Voldie link is too obvious and again, due to JKR's hurry to finish the book, Dumbledore didn't keep his word to Harry about explaining everything. That was also an oversite on her part that is tacky. As for Luna, she's got me concerned. She seems to know a lot about things, and seems to think Harry stupid for not knowing them, just like her comment about the veil leads me to believe that Sirius is in some kind of limbo since she acts like hearing the voices is quite normal. Makes you go hmmmm.... Jeff From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Mon Aug 4 07:59:38 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 07:59:38 -0000 Subject: Why Ron WON'T betray Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black > wrote: > > Ron cares for Harry very > > much. I think he considers him a best mate and > > possibly a brother. I also think that Ron wishes that > > Ginny would be chose Harry (why on Earth would he want > > his sister who he is so protective of be with Harry if > > he was to merely betray Harry). Perhaps, we haven't > > seen it..but I don't think that Ron will betray Harry. > > With the possible exception of Percy Weasley, I think that Harry is > all but a member of that family, and they all will be his supporters > and rooters during his next two years. They have had the opportunity > to know Harry as a kid, not just a legend, they have seen him at his > best and his worst. Ron especially understands Harry better than > almost anyone else. He understands how miserable Harry is with the > Dursleys, and he knows how embarrassed Harry by his fame. Except for > the bout of jealousy that hit Ron in GoF, he knows that Harry hasn't > asked for any of the things that have happened to him. With Ron's > success in Quidditch, he is no longer only a "side kick". > > I truly believe that Ron would like nothing more than to have Harry > someday marry Ginny and become a real member of the family. I think > that for Harry, the ultimate happy ending would be to become part of > a large, loving family. Gotta butt in, since I gotta defend Ron. :) I agree that Ron and Harry really care about each other, since they clicked so fast and easily on their first meeting, and Harry chose Ron over Draco. Aside from the argument, we saw that Ron was chosen as the most important think to Harry, which says a lot. I *don't* mean to imply a sexual relationship, so don't flame me, ok? I just mean that they are each other's brother they never had, so to speak. Ron's jealousy had been brewing a while, I think, and with him being the poor, omega male in his family, I can understand his feelings. I don't really excuse them, but I know he's human and I can understand and forgive him, as Harry did. While Ron doesn't have the hellish life Harry does, he does have his cross to bear, and it gets to him at times. But I don't think he'd *ever* turn on Harry without being under a curse. I do agree that his "sidekick" status is chaning a bit, and that's great! I'd love to see Ron and Harry as an Auror team, and I think it could happen, as I don't see Ron leaving Harry's side if he decides to become an Auror, unless of course he has to deal with giant spiders. ;) As to his feelings about Ginny dating Harry....dunno for sure. The big brother in him might want to smack Harry for even looking at her *that* way, but then again, I think that he'd rather she be with Harry than some of the other boys in school. Jeff From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Mon Aug 4 09:09:24 2003 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:09:24 -0000 Subject: JKR's best interview and JKR's favorite character In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75241 "Kewpie" JKR also stated at this time - 'Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That's a very horrible idea' Unrequited love then?? From kathrin.wagenmann at online.de Mon Aug 4 09:56:22 2003 From: kathrin.wagenmann at online.de (feuerzahn_17) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 09:56:22 -0000 Subject: Petunia knowing Dementors Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75242 Hi, I was looking through the messages, but i did not find anything about that. When I first read the part about petunia knowing dementors I thought that she probably knows them, because they "killed" her parents.that is why she knows that they suck peoples soul.It is said somewhere in the books that dementors were involved in the worst muggle killings during the first war. did anyone of you think the same?could be possible,couldn`t it? From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Mon Aug 4 11:31:59 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 11:31:59 -0000 Subject: Map of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <3F282F11.30069.65734AF@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75243 Nicely done. Thank you for all the hard work. It looks quite good to me, imho. I'll be looking forward to the changes. BTW, wouldn't they have tubs, rather than showers? The Prefects have a tub, and as old as Hogwarts is, I'd guess that they have tubs in all dorms. And certainly not pirvacy stalls. Maybe new schools do, I guess, but many old ones in Euro-Asia are still big tiled rooms with a few tubs, as near as I can tell. Anyway, thanks again for the hard work. Jeff From rickjen at lewandowskifamily.com Mon Aug 4 12:37:27 2003 From: rickjen at lewandowskifamily.com (lewa8978) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 12:37:27 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's cookies Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75244 One thing I noticed when reading OoP was McGonagall's insistance that Harry eat a cookie. I don't have my book handy, but I think this actually happens twice, and then later the tin of cookies is knocked over. Is there something important about Harry eating the cookies? Here's what I'm thinking: right around the time the cookies come up, there is a potions class where they discuss a calming potion. Is it possible that McGonagall has "laced" the cookies with something and that's why she pushes them on Harry? If I recall correctly, she even insists on making him take one for the road. Again, I don't have my book handy, so if I remember this incorrectly, please be kind. Jen From centaur1215 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 12:37:48 2003 From: centaur1215 at yahoo.com (centaur1215) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 12:37:48 -0000 Subject: Fred and George leaving In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Tonks: > Someone was talking about Fred and George leaving school and > something dawned on me. Who is going to the next beaters for the > Gryffindor Quidditch team? > > Dan: > Maybe Dean and Seamus? I'd imagine it'd be two people we know (sort of--we haven't seen much at all of either character), who are close friends, like Fred and George. Then again, it could just as well be Neville and Hermione. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] In book 1, Ron says "Neville will play Quidditch for England before Hagrid betrays Dumbledore" hmmmmm From centaur1215 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 12:44:17 2003 From: centaur1215 at yahoo.com (centaur1215) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 12:44:17 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" wrote: > KathyK: > > > > Voldemort could have been after both the Potters and the > > Longbottoms. We don't know what means the Longbottoms used, if any > > to keep themselves and Neville safe from Voldeomort. Until the > > Potters made Wormtail Secret-Keeper, I think Voldemort actively > > searched for both families if he didn't know which one was the one > > that would fulfill the prophecy. When Wormtail became Secret-Keeper, > > able to divulge the whereabouts of the Potters, Voldemort decided to > > go after them first because he knew where to find him. If he could > > get rid of Harry, he'd at least be assured that one potential threat > > was gone, if not actually destroying the threat if Harry turned out > > to be the one in the prophecy. > > I can't keep my eyes open anymore, > > > Is it possible that in the year between Harry (and Neville's) births and when LV killed > the Potter's that The Longbottom's went mad and Neville was sent to his > Grandmother's? I can't recall if there is a specified timeline with respect to that, > but.... > If the Longbottom's were already driven to insanity during Neville's infacy and then > he was sent to his grandmother's perhaps it was as simple as LV not being able to > find Neville, or rather finding the Potter's and Harry first. Obviously LV didn't > consider the fact that when he attacked Harry he would be reduced to a powerless > spirit. Perhaps he was aware of and planned on killing both Harry and Neville and > Wormtail simply gave him the Potter's information first. > > As for some of the suggestions that Harry is not indeed the one foretold to battle LV, > maybe it's the stick-in-the-mud realist in me, but I just don't think J.K.R. would build > an empire (books, films, retail) on this huge lie. As much as this group here is a > bunch of grownups, the millions and millions of children that this empire is based > around would be utterly confused and distrubed. I really hope for some more > awesome surprises in the series, but the kid in me wants it all to end happy and for > the boy/young man who has been the protagonist for 7 books to end up being the > hero. Kevin, We learned in GOF that the Lastranges & Barty Crouch Jr & 1 other man was sent to Azkaban because they had tortured the Longbottoms. It was after Voldy marked Harry From christin.gahnstrom at telia.com Mon Aug 4 13:15:03 2003 From: christin.gahnstrom at telia.com (cgahnstrm) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:15:03 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" > > >...you certainly wouldn't > > have people being dragged off to that nightmarish place Azkaban > > without a trial, as Hagrid was in CoS. > > (and Sirius - he never had a trial either). > > ... or people dragged off to military prisons to face a military > tribunal - if they even get around to setting it up? Not only do we > have foreigners in guantanamo bay, but we also have many in custody > who were already in the US, plus at leat 2 US citizens I know of who > were at least initially denied access even to a lawyer. While I > think the WW is more like a constitutional monarchy than a democracy, > I thinkt he situations cited could just as easily happen in a > democracy. Up untill book 5, I sort of thought of the wizarding world as a great place (or subculture) to live in. But now I would be more than happy to be a muggle in the Potter universe. Freedom of speech? Non existent. How can someone get detention for speaking his mind in school? Press freedom? Even Italy is better. AND they send people to Azkaban (serious torture) without trial. Those poor opressed wizards need their own Amnesty International. Christin (usually a lurker) From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 13:32:08 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:32:08 -0000 Subject: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "loonyloopyrjl" > wrote: > > I don't think Hermione was being racist or prejudiced when she > > referred to centaurs as "horses" to Parvati and Lavender [OoP, > > Chapter 27]. Rude, yes, but not necessarily racist or "speciest." > > > > Hagrid himself (although not known for his tact) referred to the > > centaurs as "mules" IN FRONT of the centaurs themselves: > > "I won' be kept outta the fores' by a bunch of mules like you!" > said > > Hagrid. [OoP, Chapter 30] > > > > And walking away from them, Hagrid says to Harry and Hermione: > > "Ruddy old nags though, eh?" [OoP, Chapter 30] > > > > And back in PS/SS Chapter 15, Bane says of Firenze: > > "Have you no shame? Are you a common mule? . . . . It is not our > > business to run around like donkeys after stray humans in our > forest!" > > > > I would expect Hagrid, more than anyone else, to be not racist or > > prejudiced against other species. He is half-human and imperfect, as > > is Hermione, so he will say stupid things. The centaurs, on the other > > hand, have no problem insulting their own as mules or donkeys, so I > > think it's understood that this is an "acceptable" insult. > > > > > Hermione just safely despatched her jibe sitting at the breakfast table, and > there was no excuse for it, except that she wanted to score off some > girls. As I said before, she wouldn't dare say that to a centaur's > face, but she'll do it when there's no risk. I'm not developing a > theory that Hermione is a secret racist, I'm more concerned with > what a line like this is doing in the book. Rowling should have > known better, and an editor would have noticed that it was > discordant with the larger theme. I think she is getting too > indulgent with her characters, and not keeping them disciplined. I'm > just not in the mood to think up elaborate excuses for a lazy > author. It's illogical to say "Hermione is muggle born; muggle- > borns can't be racist; ergo, if she uses a racist term it isn't > really racist." I thought the term was offensive, even if Rowling > is too enchanted by her creations to notice it. > > Wanda Wanda, don't you think you think that is putting too much weight on that 2 second conversation in a book? Four years ago when Hermione first started at Hogwart's she would have never said anything derogatory to anyone because she was intensly insecure, as most "know it all" people are. JKR simply put this in to show Hermione has grown and is much more secure in herself and her friends. She can be catty and not worry about pushing two potential friends away. Yes it could be interpreted as racist, but it wasn't due to the context it was used. I believe readers are putting way too much time in on the subject, was Hermione rude for saying it? yes. Was it to girls she doesn't particular like? yes. Did she say it to hurt Firenze? no. So is Hermione being racist? no. Does she like horses? no. Does she find Firenze dreamy as the two girls do? no. Let it rest, Hermione has changed from a non risk taker and straight laced child to a young woman who will take chances for her friends. And sometimes she can do or say stupid things just like the rest of us. From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 18:27:19 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:27:19 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > Interesting. :) I reread the chapter to see if there really was anything to support my > "timing" speculation in there, and Snape waits (which all of you probably already > realised ;)) until it's time for the practical lesson, to remove his memories. So if it > really was his feelings for James he wanted to have put aside, then he didn't care > about having it in the way while explaining the theory of Occlumency, but at least got > them out of the way when it was time for practice. And I don't know, but to me it > seems that he was a little nicer after using the Pensieve. He didn't point it out that > Harry wasn't calling him "sir", there was some credit for Harry's achievement > (although as a near-insult, "that was not as poor as it might have been"), and there > were not as many nasty comments as before (such as calling Harry a "lamentable > potion-maker", implying that his mind isn't complex, etc...). WHich suggests that this is NOT Snapes worst memory, as the chapter title suggests, but something that would get in the way of the lesson; that makes sense. Harry assumes it's in the pensive because Snape doesn't want him to see it (and so do we), but maybe Snape didn't think Harry had the skills to see the worst in Snape's memory - he was teaching him to BLOCK an attack, not to attempt one himself. So maybe the Pensieve was to protect his from his OWN reaction to that memory. I think Snapes reaction is not so much because Harry saw the specific memory, but because he snooped and violated Snape's privacy. If Snape was worried about Harry accessing his memory, he probably would have put the childhood memory in the pensieve too. Melinda From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 13:45:54 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:45:54 -0000 Subject: The racist behavior of Centaurs Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75250 Since everyone is ranting about the so called racist comments of Hermione and Hagrid, I though it fair to point out that in the book Centaurs are the most racist of anyone in the series. In SS Firenze is berrated for giving Harry a ride back to Hagrid and friends. In OotP, Firenze is attacked because he is working for DD. Having anything to do with mere humans is enough to get a centaur banned for the herd. A centaur can be punished for trying to save the life of a human, so it would be agreable to the herd to let them die? This is serious supremist behavior if I ever saw it. So cut Hermione and Hagrid a break. It seems that centaurs might deserve a little racism thrown at them to knock them off their high horses, no pun intended. Ron said there wasn't a wizard or witch that was bad that didn't come out of Slytherin, does this make him racist towards the house and occupants of Slytherin? If we are casting stones at who has acted racist, let's not forget anyone. From dunknegg at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:31:34 2003 From: dunknegg at yahoo.com (Rania Melhem) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Azkaban effects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030804143134.56811.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75251 I was thinking about this last night . In PoA we are told that prolongued stays in Azkaban does rob wizards of their powers. Wormtail accuses Sirius of having learned methods to avoid the loss of wizarding powers from Voldy. However we now know that none of the 10 death eaters at who spent at least 13 years in Azkaban (possibly longer) lost their powers or at least recovered them as soon as they got out of Azkaban. Rania --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 14:33:43 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:33:43 -0000 Subject: JKR's best interview In-Reply-To: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F453@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John, C" wrote: > JKR's best interview - > 1. About Lily > Q. Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry's father and I was wondering 'Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?'JKR. Yeah, you will. It's ---- yet again ---- you won't find out ---- ,snip>Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, or you'll find out something very significant about her in Book 5, then you'll find out something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But I can't tell you what those things are so I'm sorry, but yes,you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do. > snip> The way JKR said the above is VERY interesting, "Now the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant thing..." So we are to believe there's ONE significant thing that will have a huge impact on Harry's life, and it will be in two parts. We already found out Harry has her "startlingly green almond-shaped eyes" before Book 5. Possible other significant things we know now: 1) When Lily takes her wand out, "James and Sirius eyed it warily." Then James says, "Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you" and Lily says, "Take the curse off him then." Isn't that odd? James is threatening a hex and it's like Lily can't even be bothered with it, she knows she has the upper hand and contunues to make demands. Does she possess some superior magical ability, or does she just know James won't hex her? 2) Standing up for Snape, not something anyone else is doing at the moment. 3) Standing up to James, not something anyone else seems to be doing, either!! Just some thoughts--ariadne From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:37:33 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Of Dumbledore In Books 6 & 7 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030804143733.79940.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75253 Now that it looks like Dumbledore will be the one to teach Harry Occlumency, I think we'll be seeing a lot more of him in the last two books. He'll probably meet with Harry 1-2 times a week for lessons, or maybe he'll teach Harry over the summer since it's even more imperative that Harry block his thoughts from the Dark Lord. We all knew Harry was special to Dumbledore, but I didn't realize how much until the chapter entitled "The Lost Prophecy" in OOP. Dumbledore revealed his enormous degree of respect, admiration, and love for Harry not only by his words but when he sheds tears (he probably doesn't do that for very many since he's always in such control). With all this out in the open, Dumbledore's got to have a closer relationship with Harry now, which means more book time. Right? Plus, if Dumbledore's going to bite the dust in Book 7, JKR will have to write him in a lot more. Buttercup ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 14:39:16 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pronunciation of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030804143917.77923.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75254 Is the "t" in Voldemort silent? ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 15:17:17 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:17:17 -0000 Subject: Lily's magical abilities? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75256 I posted this in response to another e-mail, but decided to post it again b/c it seems significant. In the thread on "JKR's greatest interview," JKR mentions that we will find out a very significant thing about Lily in two parts: in Book 5 and in Book 7. So, I started re-reading the pensieve scene in Snape's Worst Memory, and noticed a little detail that I missed before. Here's the snippet: "LEAVE HIM ALONE!" Lilly shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily. "Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you," said James earnestly. Take the curse off him then!" James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the countercurse. Isn't that interesting, the way it's phrased? James is threatening to hex Lily, more or less, (maybe in jest), and it's like Lily doesn't hear it, or knows he can't/won't do it, or whatever. That got me thinking, not only does Lily stand up to James and Sirius, something Lupin won't even do, but James and Sirius "eyed her wand warily." They aren't looking at Snape warily even though he came to school knowing more curses than a 6th or 7th year! So, what's the deal? Is Lily very powerful when it comes to her magical ability? Is her ability in charms greater than curses and hexes? Wondering, wondering...Ariadne From kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 18:31:42 2003 From: kateydidnt2002 at yahoo.com (kateydidnt2002) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:31:42 -0000 Subject: The racist behavior of Centaurs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Ron said there wasn't a wizard or witch that was bad that didn't > come out of Slytherin, does this make him racist towards the house > and occupants of Slytherin? Actually it was Hagrid who said that in the books, they just gave Ron that line in the movie. Yes it is a prejudicial statement against Slytherins, but I am now wondering if "racist" is the appropriate term, since technically, the Slytherins are of the same race... kateydidnt From p51263 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 16:01:20 2003 From: p51263 at aol.com (p51263 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:01:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia Dursley could be a powerful witch Message-ID: <2f.3d33128a.2c5fdd50@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75258 This could explain alot of why and reason behind why Harry is at the Dursleys for the first 10 years prior going to Hogwarts. I could agree to this theory as well. But not necessary the part on why Petunia and Lilly do not look a like, a lot of sisters don't have to look alike to be siblings. Patricia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Mon Aug 4 16:02:14 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:02:14 -0400 Subject: The trios SHIPPING options Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75259 I've been wondering what JKR has up her sleeve, SHIPPING wise, for our trio. I think the clues have all been laid, and things will start happening in book 6. So, what are our options? Ron/Hemione: Certainly many clues there. Until book 5, I thought it was a given. They seem to have taken a step back in OOP though, IMO. Meaning, less happened than in book 4, and that really surprised me. Why would JKR do that? Maybe she's just trying to be vague, because she has to be so careful now. People read these books with magnifying glasses now. I'm not a big R/H shipper, but I won't be the least bit surprised if they end up together. Harry/Ginny: The only clue I can see is Ginny's crush on Harry. Maybe Harry will suddenly notice Ginny is the perfect girl for him, but there are no hints that he will. I do think Ginny being around since book 1 is in her favor. Harry/Luna: I like Luna, but can't see JKR waiting until book 5 to introduce Harry's future girlfriend. Ron/Luna: OTOH, I can see JKR waiting until book 5 to introduce Ron's future girl friend. Harry/Cho: The fact that she's been around for the last 3 books, and we still barely know her, counts her out for me. She's served her purpose, (as first crush, first kiss, first mistake romantically) as far as I'm concerned. Harry/Hermione: I really don't see romantic clues as far as they go. They did bond more, as friends in OOP. It would have to be something that would take them both by surprise. One red flag for me is, both Cho and Krum being jealous of them. What I'm wondering though is, if it's been H/Hr all along, what's with the R/Hr clues. That would have to set up for trouble, jealousy and maybe a rift between the trio. I really don't have the first clue what's up JKR's sleeve. I'm chomping at the bit for book 6! Joj From p51263 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 16:06:04 2003 From: p51263 at aol.com (p51263 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:06:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fred and George leaving Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75260 They already have been replaced when the were banned off the team and I think they are more than ready to leave school when they did. My theory is that they reached an enpasse in there studies and needed a change of venue to expanded their horizons and abilities as wizards. They will always be their for the Order of Phoenix if asked. This is my opion on Fred and George. Patricia [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sylviablundell at aol.com Mon Aug 4 16:12:40 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:12:40 -0000 Subject: JKR and Terry Pratchett Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75261 I was at a Discworld event last weekend, where Terry Pratchett kindly but very firmly dealt with people who accuse Rowling of copying from him and vice versa and of both of them of copying from Tolkien. The ideas that all three writers deal with have been around for centuries. It's just that they all put their own particular spin on them. Personally I love all three and cant think why people have to elevate one and rubbish the others. From susanawhite123 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 16:12:42 2003 From: susanawhite123 at yahoo.com (Sue White) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 09:12:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia Dursley In-Reply-To: <20030804001557.70090.qmail@web13310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030804161242.8574.qmail@web14107.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75262 --- Stacy Berinsky wrote: > No, I don't think she could be a squib, because that > would imply that her family was compromised of > witches and wizards, and her sister lily is always > described as being born of muggles. I think Petunia is a witch. Supporting evidence: Book five, the howler she recieves which addresses her as "Petunia" and her fear of Voldemort. Additionally when the Aunt exploded in book 3, I think that it was Petunia geyting upset and just letting go. Notice Harry didn't get in trouble for this? Macgonagol (sp) refers to her as "the worst sort of mugle." I've always wondered what the worst sort of muggle was, could it be the worst muggles are really magical folks pretending to be muggles? Suspicions: 1. I think Petunia, Lily and all the other flower-named ladies (Bellatrix, Narcissa...) are related. This makes sense that Petunia fits the mold of an evil flower-named lady, perhaps she hates Lily, because she is good. Wild Suspicion: 2. I think Petunia may have been a death eater. I have no evidence of this, but going out on a limb and assuming she is a witch in hiding, you have to wonder what is she hiding from? Why was she so afraid of Voldemort? From shboink at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 16:29:41 2003 From: shboink at yahoo.com (shboink) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:29:41 -0000 Subject: Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "profsheryl" wrote: (Sh'boink snips) Lori: > > > Just a note: Even though it is true that we see *most* of the > > > story/action through Harry's eyes, we don't necessarily see 100% > > of > > > it. He's simply the character to whom we are closest. When > writing > > > with a 3rd person limited omniscient POV, the author can always > > still > > > pull back away from the POV character to give the reader a > broader > > > (or different) view. > > > > > > Shboink, first-time poster, nervous > > My reply: You did good, sh-boink, sometimes I see that we are not > > seeing it from Harry's POV, alot of times I think its more all > three > > of them that we see the story through. Thanks for the encouragement, Lori. We definitely get a lot of the others' opinions! Sheryl: > > Delurking for first post, also nervous: > > But I think the POV is why Harry and Hermoine are a good possibility > as a couple. If R/H get together, we won't really get to see it > and "experience" it . . . unless Harry has some voyeuristic side to > him that we haven't learned about yet ;) It's not like JKR is going > to grant us access to private moments between R/H, and not being > able to "see" that would be a bummer, in this reader's opinion. With > H/H JKR could take us into as much detail as she likes, as she did > with H/C. And that scene with the kiss, and the conversation with R > and H afterwards served as a nice set of moments in OOTP. I think you did a fine job, too, Sheryl! In response to your post: I like your idea/argument, (because I DO, of course, have a voyeuristic side:))but I'm wondering if it's just too late in the series for an in-depth look at any SHIP anyway. I mean, yes, we did get to witness H/C, but it wasn't destined to go anywhere, so the brief moment worked. Everybody's got an awful lot of fightin' ahead of them, it seems to me; I can imagine characters recognizing/acknowledging their feelings more fully in the midst of such drama, but I don't know that there's going to be much opportunity for a great deal of detail. With that in mind, I still hope for the R/H SHIP to come in! From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 16:18:20 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:18:20 -0000 Subject: the Prophecy Harry and James as Voldemort's targets In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kateydidnt2002" wrote: > Ok, in OotP we find out that Voldemort wanted to kill Harry because > of Trelawney's first prophecy. > So why did Voldemort want to kill James? In SS p294 Voldemort says "I > killed your father first, and he put up a courageous fight...but your > mother needn't have died..." and in book three Harry hears Voldemort > saying "Stand aside, stupid girl!" (or something to that effect-not > looking at my book at the moment) So why would Voldemort be so > intent on killing James and not Lily when both seemed to be working > hard against him and Harry was the only one mentioned in the prophecy? > Kateydidnt Me: Okay, this is my first post. Hope I follow the rules properly. I had a thought along these lines this weekend, because I was remembering what Dumbledore told Harry at the end of CoS about Voldemort being the last *ancestor* of Slytherin. When I first read that, I read it (subconsciously, I guess) as descendent, because I thought he was trying to pacify Harry's concern about maybe really belonging in Slytherin. It was when I started looking at the Unofficial guide that I noticed the true wording. Anyway, while taking a shower Saturday morning (my best thoughts come in there!! ;)), I started thinking about that and suddenly thought that maybe Lily was Voldemort's daughter (since we really don't know that much about her background/heritage, except for those "green eyes"), and she had no knowledge of it. Perhaps that would explain his reluctance to kill Lily while going after Harry. When Harry was 12, the Chamber of Secrets was reopened, which it hadn't been for 50 years. If Tom Riddle/Voldemort was 15 when the Chamber was opened the first time, he'd be about 65 when Harry was 12. At some point, I had figured out that Lily and James were 20 or 21 years old when Harry was born. That works out that LV was 32 or 33 when Lily was born, and he could have been her father. No one knows where he was between his time as a student at Hogwart's and his rise as the Dark Lord. So, maybe Harry is the Heir of both Gryffindor *and* Slytherin, and that's why Voldemort deduced that Harry was the one in the prophecy. Of course, I don't know the significance of that, but maybe that's why LV didn't want to kill Lily. Thoughts? - shirley From lucchaser at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 16:30:06 2003 From: lucchaser at yahoo.com (Lady Luck) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:30:06 -0000 Subject: Dudley a wizard? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75265 Supose Dudley turns out to be a wizard, how do you think Vernon and Petunia is going to react to that? From JOANNABARRA788 at MSN.COM Mon Aug 4 16:32:04 2003 From: JOANNABARRA788 at MSN.COM (berkana123) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:32:04 -0000 Subject: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75266 Hi everyone. I have been away for a while, I have only read a few messages on this subject, but I think Hermione was being very ignorant, when she referred to the centures as horses. For someone, with such intelligence, she shouldn't have made the mistake and as for Hagrid calling them mules, well I love Hagrid as a character in the book, but he is not that intelligent, so maybe he couldn't remember what they were called. Or maybe he was being rude ml joanna x From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 17:42:58 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:42:58 -0000 Subject: Muggle-born teachers In-Reply-To: <3F2DF145.000005.45069@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lisa" wrote: > In CoS, Malfoy is talking about the Chamber being open and how the all the > Muggle-borns and half-bloods would be, I guess expunged would be the best > word, from Hogwarts and he does go on to say the McGonagall will be one of > the first ones to go. When I read that I immediately thought that maybe she > could be muggle-born or half-blood? He said also that she was filling in for > someone. I wonder who that was? Hi. I just got done reading COS again and I don't remember Malfoy saying that McGonagall would be one of the first to go. He did say on page 266-267 "I told you he thinks Dumbledore's the worst headmaster the school's ever had. Maybe we'll get a decent headmaster now. Someone who won't want the Chamber of Secrets closed. McGonagall won't last long, she's only filling in..." Meaning she won't last long as headmaster. Diana From siriuslove71 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 17:59:46 2003 From: siriuslove71 at yahoo.com (Diana_Sirius_fan) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:59:46 -0000 Subject: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I don't think it's acceptable at all - callling the centaurs "mules" > was clearly a serious insult, and intended to be one. "Mules" > and "donkeys" - brute animals that serve man, these are considered > degrading terms to the centaurs, and I don't think they'd think it > was cute that a human girl called them "horses". The fact that > Hagrid said what he did seemed to me an indication of how well he > knew the "lingo". He picked the term he knew would be the most > offensive to his audience, but he at least had the excuse of being > insulted first, and he was standing up to his opponents. Hermione > just safely despatched her jibe sitting at the breakfast table, and > there was no excuse for it, except that she wanted to score off some > girls. Hagrid would have never treated or called the centaurs anything disrespectful until they started treating him the way they did. He was trying to save Firenze before the other centaurs killed him. Because of that they were claiming that Hagrid was not allowed in the forest anymore and were even threatening to kill him. Hagrid is the one who has the most respect for all the creatures in the forest but since the centaurs are treating him with disrespect he is just sticking up for himself. He is letting them know that he is not intimidated by them like they want him to be. Also, he probably has absolutely no respect for them anymore after what they did to Firenze and also by how they are acting toward him. As far as Hermoine goes, big deal, she called them horses. This means she is racist? They are horses, or part anyway. Diana From nikegirl0000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 18:35:45 2003 From: nikegirl0000 at yahoo.com (Lorena) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:35:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius' exit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75269 hola a todos! esta es la primera vez que entro, y d?jenme decirles que me tienen sorprendida porque todas sus teor?as son muy interesantes! I was just wondering, about Sirus' death, it was so quick, i mean, it's hard to believe he's death, i just don't like thinking about that, and also it didn't said what happened with the body, i don't think they have just let it in the deparment of mysteries, but it also seems to be the perfect alibi, just pretending he's death now, 'cause he has just had many problems, he had to be hidden or someone may find him and ?bum! back to azkaban, maybe the order want to make the Death Eaters and the minister of magic think he's death, now that they now the'll have to face Voldemort & Co.,and in that way he now could be closer to Harry without hidding... well it's just a thought. but there we find the other part, why the order will be lying to Harry about Sirius' death, i mean, they know he will suffer and if his death wasn't truth why they will want Harry to suffer the lost of Sirius? and Sirius was such a good wizard, to have died by his cousin and not even with a death course. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 18:42:56 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:42:56 -0000 Subject: Why Ron WON'T betray Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75270 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jeffl1965" wrote: > But I don't think he'd *ever* turn on Harry without > being under a curse. With talk about Ron, It occurred to me today, I hope Ron doesn't unknowingly fall for some make-money Quibbler ad planted by Death Eaters or something... A.J. From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 19:09:35 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:09:35 -0700 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily? (Was: the Prophecy Harry and James as Voldemort's targets) Message-ID: <410-2200381419935567@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75271 acoteucla wrote: "My favored theory to explain this assumes that Lupin is Ever So Evil. Lupin is in love with Lily, and hates James because of that. He decides to strike a deal with Voldemort: Lupin will betray the Potters', if Voldemort agrees not to kill Lily. " Now me (Wendy): Great post, and it's really making me think about some things in a new way! So, while this may appear to be me picking apart your theory, it's really me just trying to work through the interesting points you've brought up to see if I agree with them or not. I'm also in the Evil!Lupin camp, and this is an angle I've not thought through before. It could work, although I still just don't really like the Lupin loved Lily angle (for the same reasons I HATE the Snape loved Lily arguments - I think it's a bit of a cliche, and I also like to think that there are reasons beyond thwarted love that would motivate these characters to do what they've done. I think we already have plenty of canon for Snape's hatred of James without tossing Lily into the mix). But just because I don't like something, doesn't mean JKR won't write it. (She killed Sirius and not Hagrid, so obviously she's not taking my personal feelings into consideration). acoteucla again: "At the end of PoA, everyone assumes that Peter is the one who has been passing information to Voldemort for over a year before he finally catches up with the Potters. But what if instead it was LUPIN who was passing that information?" Now Wendy again: But we know that Peter was spying all along. At least that's the way I've always interpreted this passage from PoA (page 274, UK hardcover): "You sold Lily and James to Voldemort," said Black, who was shaking too. "Do you deny it?" Pettigrew burst into tears. It was horrible to watch: he looked like an oversized, balding baby, cowering on the floor." "Sirius, Sirius what could I have done? The Dark Lord . . . you have no idea . . . he has weapons you can't imagine . . . I was scared, Sirius, I was never brave ilke you and Remus and James. I never meant it to happen . . . He Who Must Not Be Named forced me - " "DON'T LIE!" bellowed Black. "YOU'D BEEN PASSING INFORMATION TO HIM FOR A YEAR BEFORE LILY AND JAMES DIED! YOU WERE HIS SPY!" "He - he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew. "Wh-what was there to be gained by refusing him?" Peter does not deny that he betrayed James and Lily, nor does he deny that he was spying for a year beforehand, either. So I think he did both of those things. This doesn't mean that Lupin wasn't also doing these things. I am wondering how you reconcile your theory of Lupin's involvement here with the canon we already have pointing to Peter. acoteucla again: "Don't forget that Sirius convinces James to switch to Peter as secret-keeper at the last second BECAUSE HE SUSPECTS LUPIN! What reasons did they have for suspecting Lupin? Maybe they were good reasons!" Wendy (me) again: Great point. I do wish we knew a bit more about just why Sirius suspected him. Was it as simple as some ingrained werewolf prejudice bubbling to the surface, or was there something more specific? Or maybe you're right, and Sirius knew that Remus had feelings for Lily, and suspected Remus for this reason? acoteucla: Upon being entrusted as the Potters' secret-keeper, Peter decides to use this opportunity to switch to the "winning side". It will immediately gain him an important position amongst the death-eaters. Peter betrays the Potters (James makes some really questionable friendships!), and Voldemort finally catches up with the Potters." Wendy again: I think Peter had already switched long before becoming the Secret Keeper. So I think he was the one passing information all along, and it also seems obvious that if Lupin was already in Voldemort's camp at this time, Peter didn't know about it. Again, this doesn't mean Lupin wasn't passing info as well, but we don't need him to be a spy to explain anything in the story. acoteucla finished by saying: "He kills James, of course, but offers to let Lily live, in honor of the original agreement with Lupin. Voldemort's Slytherin-training comes to forefront, however, when Lily is "too stupid" to save her own skin. He kills her in disgust before turning on Harry." Wendy again: Here's the big question that your post raised for me: Where does this put Lupin now in terms of loyalty? Why would he continue to serve Voldemort after Voldie killed the woman he loved - the woman Voldemort had promised to spare at Lupin's request? It seems that this scenario might point to a Reformed-DeathEater!Lupin, more so than an activitely ESE!Lupin. And I don't see ReformedDeathEater!Lupin as being a very likely possiblity. So, why would Lupin be loyal to Voldemort now? I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this. :-) Wendy From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 4 19:09:39 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:09:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia Dursley References: <1059982200.4117.41151.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000401c35abb$f6265f80$ad516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 75272 Stacy: > No, I don't think she could be a squib, because that would imply that her family was compromised of witches and >wizards, and her sister lily is always described as being born of muggles. I also don't think that Petunia is a squib, though for different reasons than you. We've now learned a little more about squibs, having been introduced to Arabella Figg, and it's led me to conclude that although they don't have the ability to do magic, they have what I'd call "magical sensitivity" which muggles don't have. Figgy can see the Dementors, even though Dudley can't. (We surmise that) Filch can leave the Hogwarts precincts and find his way back, even though the place is hidden from muggles. But what about a squib born into a muggle family? They certainly wouldn't get a Hogwarts letter or any acknowledgement that they were in any way different from a muggle. But they would still have that degree of sensitivity. I could imagine them being the more "psychic" children, the ones that _did_ see fairies, gnomes, and other magical creatures, the ones that _did_ see witches flying on broomsticks, because it was that much harder for the WW concealments to work on them. I just don't see Petunia as that sort of person! Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 4 19:20:51 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:20:51 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is the WW a democracy? References: <1059987347.2223.27464.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000d01c35abd$84dcfda0$ad516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 75273 sbursztynski: > This may have been handled in another thread, so excuse me if it has, > but ... just how *is* the wizard government chosen? While it's not > impossible that an idiot like Fudge would be elected democratically > (he makes Jim Hacker of Yes, Minister look like an intellectual), he > seems more like the head of the civil service, but more - in a > democracy, Voldemort wouldn't have to resort to violence, he'd just > have to stand in the next election. He'd wipe the floor with Fudge. All of which leads me to conclude that the WW isn't democratic in any way that we would understand. (Of course, that also means that the denizens of the WW would find a description of "muggle mokrassies" equally incomprehensible!) Until OoP came out, I would have argued that there weren't _any_ democratic elements in choosing the Minister, but it's explicitly now stated that Fudge was "elected". So the question then becomes, _how_ was he chosen for election, and by _whom_ was he elected? There is to me a "feel" within the Ministry of the way the leader of the Tory Party used to be chosen, which was that the "great and the good" would consult with one another until a new leader "emerged" from those discussions and could then be presented to the party, and I haven't seen anything to challenge that theory. Who would choose? Probably the senior officials in the Ministry, someone who was "one of us", who wouldn't overthrow the way things are done or challenge the fundamental principles. And I'd agree with thge poster who suggested that the Wizenagamot (sp?) would be the body who would confirm or reject that candidate in an election. Elections don't necessarily have to involve a choice, then can just as easily be to confirm or deny. It would also sit well with the other kinds of collective body that make decisions in the WW: the tribunal for justice, the wizarding congress to lay down the higher rules for the bureaucracy to follow, even (on a smaller scale) the Governors of Hogwarts Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 19:24:15 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 12:24:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pronunciation of Voldemort References: <20030804144040.48754.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75274 Buttercup: Is the "t" in Voldemort silent? Dan: Yep! It's pronounced VOL-duh-more if you want to be all French about it. Seems that in the films it's said all Englishy (ooo! an adjective!)-- VOL-duh-mort, with a hard "t." Either, I think, is perfectly valid. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kewiromeo at aol.com Mon Aug 4 19:26:23 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:26:23 -0400 Subject: Sorting hat and Marauders map, Syrius, Harry Message-ID: <62AC8E27.46616DBC.0250B10A@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75275 If you have have ever seen the Toy Story movies, you will know what I am talking about. I think the coolest character was the Etch-A-Sketch that would just draw things that it thought. I believe that Goddrick Gryffindor was a lot more powerful than James, Syrius, Remus, and Peter that he could make a hat that could take and pick things out of your brain. However, the Map seems to have an ability to think for itself, insulting Snape. I would love to see the Sorting Hat and the Marauders Map hang out together, and they can chat away all year, if only the Sorting hat had some hands. Now, what we need is a magic hand that the Sorting Hat can control that will write on the Marauders Map and all together they can communicate, and we will have a cool team. And to all the Sirius is coming back alive people, I agree with what JKR and all the people who quote her, she will not bring people back alive, which will give false hope to children who have lost parents. It's very touching to me even. The books deal with a lot of realities, but bringing back people would be going too far. I along with most people would have liked Syrius to have lived. Why does Harry have to appear stupid sometimes? People say that Hermoine is the brains of the opperation, but Harry has a lot on his mind. I don't think it's fair to judge him with everyone else, and who says that tests are a fair way of judging a person. And, he's brave, that's why he's in Gryffindor. But, it looks like his options were Brave or Ambition. Nowhere does the Sorting Hat once say he has any intelligence. O well, I like Harry all the same. He does what he has to do, and he's still alive. Tzvi of Brooklyn From ajlboston at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 19:26:34 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:26:34 -0000 Subject: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: <200308041747.35450.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > Yes, I doubt her memory. I repeat she studies too hard to be really brilliant. > Hermione shouldn't have a problem at all taking ten subjects at a time, she > studies too hard. Good point. She is driven to be achieving, muggleborn or not. I said something about H. to a very intelligent and academically accomplished acquaintance, who replied that they were Not like Hermione because as a child, they never had to study. A.J. From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon Aug 4 19:33:25 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:33:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments References: Message-ID: <024301c35abf$4688ce10$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 75277 Doesn't anyone else think that perhaps Hermione was just pointing out in her own wry way that Pavarti and Lavender's latest crush was, in fact, a *horse* from the..erm..waist down? Face it. P&L are have been nothing short of ridiculous for the last few books. Pavarti was actually *curling* her eyelashes with her *wand* when she asked Hermione if she regretted dropping Divination. Sheesh. Plus, she was smirking. I completely understand Hermione's urge to put a puncture in her bubble. --- OotP, US Edition, pg. 599: "Not really," said Hermione indifferently, who was reading the Daily Prophet. "I've never really liked horses." She turned a page of the newspaper, scanning its columns. "He's not a horse, he's a centaur!" said Lavender, sounding shocked. "A gorgeous centaur..." sighed Pavarti. "Either way, he's still got four legs," said Hermione coolly. --- To me, this is akin to Ron's Uranus jokes -- only, Hermione style. Lavender protests that Firenze isn't a horse, and Hermione points out that he *is* where it counts. I'll just be blunt here. Girl + Horse = Ewwwww. Perhaps I've just got a dirty mind, but I think that's all Hermione meant. I mean, I'm an equestrian enthusiast, and even *I* don't "like" horses. Yuck, Pavarti. It could never work. Laura "...Sometimes - not often, but sometimes - I like the idea of a chick with a horse." Banky, Chasing Amy. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 4 19:31:40 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:31:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Umbridge and Percy References: <1060021245.21383.69274.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001c01c35abf$07aae700$ad516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 75278 KarenF: >Percy might be a spy for the Order. But can it be possible that he's >actually under the Imperious curse, not by Fudge, but by Umbridge? >After all, Percy seems a very swayable personality where his own >advancement is concerned, not inclined to question authority, so >wouldn't fight the curse, and we already know that Umbridge is >capable of using Unforgiveable Curses. Percy refers to Umbridge as >a "really delightful woman", which I find hard to stomach under any >circumstances.And he seems to have had, and continues to have, quite >a bit of contact with her.Could it have been her who convinced him to >write that letter in the first place? Quite easily, I think. We know that when the truth emerged about Barty Crouch's disappearance, that there was "an enquiry". Let's suppose that Dolores Umbridge, in her capacity as a senior aide to the Minister, was in charge of the enquiry. Percy Weasley would have been one of the chief witnesses (not to mention being one of the chief suspects) and would therefore have been interrogated by Dolores - so she would have had him alone and at her mercy, probably on numerous occasions. Someone capable of sending Dementors to get Harry would certainly have been capable of putting a curse on Percy. I've surmised in past posts that Percy's break with his family was because of their lack of support for him while he was being interrogated and Arthur's attack on him when he got off all charges. But it could equally have been that it was Umbridge pulling the strings... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From original_gt at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 19:48:34 2003 From: original_gt at yahoo.com (flying_meese) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:48:34 -0000 Subject: Sorting hat and Marauders map, Syrius, Harry In-Reply-To: <62AC8E27.46616DBC.0250B10A@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: SNIP Nowhere does the Sorting Hat once say he has any intelligence. O well, I like Harry all the same. He does what he has to do, and he's still alive. > > Tzvi of Brooklyn Actually the sorting hat implies that Harry has qualities that would fit in all houses, including intelligence. "Hmm, Difficult. Very Difficult. Plenty of courage, I see. Not a bad mind, either. There's talent, oh my goodness, yes - and a nice thirst to prove yourself, now that's interesting...." FM From sandyluppino at comcast.net Mon Aug 4 19:53:53 2003 From: sandyluppino at comcast.net (sjlupin) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:53:53 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75280 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Buttercup: > Is the "t" in Voldemort silent? > > Dan: > Yep! It's pronounced VOL-duh-more if you want to be all French about it. Seems that in the films it's said all Englishy (ooo! an adjective!)-- VOL-duh-mort, with a hard "t." Either, I think, is perfectly valid. > > -Dan > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] One thing I thought odd, or interesting at least, is that in the US audio version on books 1-4, Jimm Dale pernounces it as VOL-duh-more with no 't', but in OoTP he does pronounce the 't'. Also in the movies they pronounce the 't'. I wondered if the change in Dale's pronounciation had anything to do with keeping in line with the movies? sjlupin From steve at hp-lexicon.org Mon Aug 4 19:55:33 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:55:33 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Buttercup: > Is the "t" in Voldemort silent? > > Dan: > Yep! It's pronounced VOL-duh-more if you want to be all French about it. Seems that in the films it's said all Englishy (ooo! an adjective!)-- VOL-duh-mort, with a hard "t." Either, I think, is perfectly valid. Rowling does not pronounce the T, I know. In several audio interviews, notably the Diane Rehm Show, Rowling pronounced it VOL- duh-more. On top of that, the Scholastic website's pronunciation guide says VOL-duh-more. In an interview, Rowling said that she pronounces it VOL-duh-more, but that she thought she was the only one who did. I would contend that she's the only one whose pronunciation matters. So why did they say it differently in the film? Even Jim Dale, who said VOL-duh-more in the audio versions of books 1-4, started pronouncing the T for book 5. Why oh why? Steve From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:00:05 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:00:05 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75282 Here is something that has bothered me about the whole "setting Harry up to get the prophecy" thing. I know the implication is that LV didn't want to go get the prophecy himself because it would risk being seen, so he had to invent a trap to lure Harry there instead. However, the entire description of the MoM leading up to the point where Harry actually takes the orb off the shelf is one of an utterly dark, quiet, closed place in the middle of the night. I mean, the six Hogwarts kids spend what seems to be quite a long time there before they get to the orb room, roaming around, making some noise, looking at things, etc., and no one comes running - they don't trip any sensors, etc. It doesn't even appear that any Order members are guarding the door anymore - when did that stop? After the attack on Arthur? So my question is, why couldn't LV just have Apparated in front of the orb, taken it off the shelf, and then Disapparated? After all, didn't he just want to stay hidden until he got the prophecy so that he could see what was in it? Mhershey From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 20:01:45 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:01:45 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <20030804151329.60171.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75283 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: >>>Gotta disagree here. Even exluding his behavior with F&G he didn't do the job. During OWLS he was going to buy one of those intelligence-boosting potions, instead of stopping the sale of them. And he didn't even bother to see if the potions were legitimate.<<< Me: So we have him, 1) Calling the first years "midgets," 2) Failing to lay a smackdown on his older, unruly brothers who we all know damn well would've laughed in his face, 3) Considering buying Firewhisky at the Hog's Head and 4) Attempting, along with Harry, to buy brain- boosting products to help with exams. I'll agree that that's a strong case for him not being 'prefect of the year.' But again, we know very little about anything else he did as a prefect. Harry wasn't with him when he and Hermione led the first years to the tower (incidentally, I'd imagine that a truly crappy prefect would've left that job to Hermione and gone to hang out with his friends); for all we know he was exceedingly helpful and reassuring to the new students. There's also the fact that aside from the F&G stuff, we didn't hear Hermione (or anyone else) complaining that Ron *wasn't* fulfilling his duties. We didn't see Harry observing that his friend was doing a crappy job and, considering his disappointment at not being made prefect, I'd imagine he'd have noticed something like that with no small amount of bitterness. At most, I think we can surmise that Ron was relatively inconsistent in his first year as a prefect. I stated earlier that Ron and Hermione serve valuable, somewhat opposing purposes in Harry's life. I think that goes for the prefect- ship as well. If every prefect at Hogwarts was a Percy/Hermione type, there'd be revolts happening constantly. There have to be laid back people in the mix in order to balance out the more rigid ones. Ron's judgment may be less than stellar sometimes, but when it comes down to the things that *really* matter, he knows right from wrong. Due in large part to the newfound confidence he has after helping to win the Quidditch Cup, I think he'll be decidedly more conscientious regarding his prefect position (among other things) in Book 6. CM From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 20:06:32 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:06:32 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: > Here is something that has bothered me about the whole "setting Harry > up to get the prophecy" thing. I know the implication is that LV > didn't want to go get the prophecy himself because it would risk > being seen, so he had to invent a trap to lure Harry there instead. > However, the entire description of the MoM leading up to the point > where Harry actually takes the orb off the shelf is one of an utterly > dark, quiet, closed place in the middle of the night. I mean, the > six Hogwarts kids spend what seems to be quite a long time there > before they get to the orb room, roaming around, making some noise, > looking at things, etc., and no one comes running - they don't trip > any sensors, etc. It doesn't even appear that any Order members are > guarding the door anymore - when did that stop? After the attack on > Arthur? So my question is, why couldn't LV just have Apparated in > front of the orb, taken it off the shelf, and then Disapparated? > After all, didn't he just want to stay hidden until he got the > prophecy so that he could see what was in it? > > Mhershey Sof: Hm. According to Dumbledore's explanation, LV was trying not to reveal that he was in fact back in the flesh by getting caught at the Ministry. He wound up blowing his cover anyway, which has put all of Wizardom on its guard, but he was trying to avoid that. From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:18:56 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:18:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75285 Mhershey: Here is something that has bothered me about the whole "setting Harry up to get the prophecy" thing. I know the implication is that LV didn't want to go get the prophecy himself because it would risk being seen, so he had to invent a trap to lure Harry there instead. However, the entire description of the MoM leading up to the point where Harry actually takes the orb off the shelf is one of an utterly dark, quiet, closed place in the middle of the night. I mean, the six Hogwarts kids spend what seems to be quite a long time there before they get to the orb room, roaming around, making some noise, looking at things, etc., and no one comes running - they don't trip any sensors, etc. It doesn't even appear that any Order members are guarding the door anymore - when did that stop? After the attack on Arthur? So my question is, why couldn't LV just have Apparated in front of the orb, taken it off the shelf, and then Disapparated? After all, didn't he just want to stay hidden until he got the prophecy so that he could see what was in it? Dan: I've been wondering this, myself. When I finished those chapters, and Voldemort *poofed* away with Bellatrix, I thought that Voldemort/the DEs had broken whatever security the MoM had. We could also suspect that apparition within the Ministry, or certain areas therein in made impossible by anti-apparition jinxes, like Hogwarts (I assume--perhaps Hogwarts' are more effective, though). But that's not satisfactory--Voldemort sends a bunch of Death Eaters into the Ministry. If they were seen, people would at most known that Death Eaters were back. Now, it still does not make sense for Voldemort not to come. He could've just worn a mask, like the rest of them. -Dan, who, although he loves OoP, thinks much of it is extremely unsatisfactory [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:20:15 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:20:15 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75286 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sofdog_2000" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" > wrote: > > Here is something that has bothered me about the whole "setting > > Sof: > > Hm. According to Dumbledore's explanation, LV was trying not to > reveal that he was in fact back in the flesh by getting caught at the > Ministry. He wound up blowing his cover anyway, which has put all of > Wizardom on its guard, but he was trying to avoid that. Exactly my point. It just seems to me that he could have easily avoided being caught in the flesh by grabbing the prophecy in the middle of the night - he only would have had to be in the MoM for a minute or two. From rvotaw at i-55.com Mon Aug 4 20:21:50 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:21:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's best interview References: Message-ID: <009001c35ac6$0a6288c0$3f9ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75287 ariadne wrote: > The way JKR said the above is VERY interesting, "Now the important > thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant thing..." > So we are to believe there's ONE significant thing that will have a > huge impact on Harry's life, and it will be in two parts. We already > found out Harry has her "startlingly green almond-shaped eyes" before > Book 5. Possible other significant things we know now: Well, technically we never had the shape of Lily's eyes described to us before. In fact, I found "almond shaped" to be an unusual way to describe eyes. The only other reference to "almond shaped eyes" that I can find was in GoF, the Sphinx in the maze has almond shaped eyes. Pulling from that information and the information that JKR gave in another interview when asked (regarding Harry having Lily's eyes) if some people could do magic with their eyes. In that interview her response was a bit, er, suspicious. :) She kept asking why they were asking, and finally said that they were very clever. That there would be more coming on that. I don't know much about the sphinx, though, other than that it guards treasure, but it was the only connection in HP I could find to the almond shaped eyes. Anyone know more? Richelle From laxer26 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 20:26:27 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? Message-ID: <20030804202627.25137.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75288 sbursztynski wrote: Remember, even Hitler was democratically elected in the beginning, and Tom Riddle seems to have been quite charismatic, handsome and plausible. Laxer I know its what a lot of people say, but Hitler was never elected as leader of the country. He ran, but was defeated. laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Mon Aug 4 20:28:25 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:28:25 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F2EC1E9.2050207@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 75289 mhershey2001 wrote (2003-08-04 22:20): >Exactly my point. It just seems to me that he could have easily >avoided being caught in the flesh by grabbing the prophecy in the >middle of the night - he only would have had to be in the MoM for a >minute or two. > > > Later MoM discovers that prophecy is missing. There are only two people who could take it: Harry and LV. Harry couldn't -- he was under constant care of Umbridge. So, it must have been LV -- Ministry is alarmed, milk is spillt. -- Pshemekan From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 20:29:21 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:29:21 -0000 Subject: My Interpretation on the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75290 Okay Dumbledore presents to Harry two possibilities on who the One is. It could be Neville Longbottom or Harry himself. Now in some ways the presentation of two choices imo kinda reminds me of the trick the magicians use which is to center your attention on what they show you and while your attention is centered on that item or red herring they accomplish the trick under your nose while your attention is elsewherer. Now in some ways this is what I think Rowling is doing she is presenting to us two choices which aren't the right ones and while our attention is focused on both Neville and Harry the third and real choice could be beneath our noses and would fulfill the terms set by the prophecy. So could the one be Peter Pettigrew? Mind you here are some explainations on how the prophecy applies to him. The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches Here it says the one approaches. It doesn't say that the one is born, but he approaches. It could be metaphorical or literal and that is hard to judge since prophecies are by nature tricky. And Dumbledore did mention that somebody was listening onto their conversation which is how Voldemort was able to learn of the prophecy. If anything could the eavesdroppers be the one that approaches the room and could Pettigrew be the eavesdropper and could the information have earned him a spot with the death eaters? born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies Now here could the two borns mean different things. Could the first mean a real live human birth while the other could have a more metaphorical definition . Now since Pettigrew was born after Voldemort perhaps his parents did defy Voldemort three times perhaps in his form as Tome Riddle. Now regarding the second born, Sirius said that Pettigrew was on Voldemort's side a year before the deaths of the Potters. Now if we fudge with the numbers alittle bit perhaps Pettigrew gave the information to Voldemort at around the end of July to coincide with the supposed births of the one who is to vanquish Voldemort and in turn was repaid with a death eater scar and inclusion into Voldemort's inner circle . So couldn't that mark his birth as a death eater, traitor and the one? Afterall Lily's sacrifice couldn't be possible if Pettigrew didn't lead Voldemort to the Potters and if Voldemort didn't trust Peter Pettigrew that much. and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, While Voldemort hasn't regarded Pettigrew as his equal he has marked him with a death eater scar and with a silver hand which might have a connection to Voldemort. Furthermore Pettigrew could be an equal of Voldemort due to the fact that both have spent a decade in hiding. Voldemort as a formless spirit and Pettigrew as a rat. but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not Despite being a traitor Pettigrew understands love and perhaps still has some of it left in him or he wouldn't have tried persuading Voldemort not to use Harry's blood. Also Pettigrew has powers as an animagus that can turn into a rat and has an affinity towards other rats. and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives Now here is the thing. If one were to die it doesn't say that the other will continue living so one could kill the other and later succumb to the wounds caused by his opponent and still satisfy the terms of the prophecy. Perhaps Voldemort kills Pettigrew and is wounded by a silver hand made from his own magic and is later finished off by Harry. From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Mon Aug 4 20:37:53 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:37:53 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: <20030804202627.25137.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030804202627.25137.qmail@web13704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F2EC421.5090509@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 75291 Trevor Peterson wrote (2003-08-04 22:26): >sbursztynski wrote: >Remember, even Hitler was democratically elected in the beginning, and Tom Riddle seems to have been quite charismatic, handsome and plausible. > >Laxer >I know its what a lot of people say, but Hitler was never elected as leader of the country. He ran, but was defeated. > Well, technically George W. Bush wasn't elected either ;-). http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler "President Hindenburg had agreed to call for new elections, which Hitler won in March 1933 with 44% of the votes." You must remember that Germany at that time had parliamentary system, as opposed to US's presidential system. And as an obligatory on-topic. WW seems to have presidential system without general elections. Minister of Magic have enourmous powers, just like US president. -- Pshemekan From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 20:43:37 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:43:37 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > I've been wondering this, myself. When I finished those chapters, and Voldemort *poofed* away with Bellatrix, I thought that Voldemort/the DEs had broken whatever security the MoM had. GEO: Actually in first chapter where we see the Ministry and the fountain many of officials arrived at work by apparating. >If they were seen, people would at most known that Death Eaters were back. You do realize that ten DEs had just escaped from Azkaban so it was already known that the DEs or some of them were back. >Now, it still does not make sense for Voldemort not to come. He could've just worn a mask, like the rest of them. GEO: Voldemort doesn't even look human. The guy has slits for eyes and seems to be lacking a nose. More so the fellow is like public enemy #1 and would be easily recognized. It would be like Hitler strolling into a public building without anyone recognizing him. From lissbell at colfax.com Mon Aug 4 20:48:07 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (lissbell at colfax.com) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 13:48:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR's best interview References: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F453@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: <3F2EC687.6090901@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75293 Hi John, I just read this interview recently and it is one of my favorites, too. Rowling seemed less cryptic in her responses. It was truly refreshing. I'm going to respond to two of your points out of order because, well, I just think it's important I respond to the Ginny point first. John, C wrote (and quoted a JKR interview): > 4. About Ginny > > JKR: Obviously, it is inappropriate in books like these, it would be totally > alien to the tone of these books if I got into too brutally realistic of an > area ---- you know, we're not going to be looking at teenage pregnancy here, > we're not going to be looking at drug taking here, you know. This would be > totally alien to the spirit of these books. However, I do want Harry to grow > up in a realistic way. > > John: I remember a post about Voldemort somehow being the child of Ginny Weasley > after using a time-turner. I don't think so!! Lissa responded: Uhh, yeah. (waves hand in the air and covers her eyes in embarrassment) I proposed that--sort of. I didn't argue Ginny had to use a time turner, but I do maintain she moves back in time. The more I consider it lately, the more I find the idea of Harry Potter and Ginny Weasley having sex within Harry's seven years at Hogwarts unlikely. As Rowling noted, a teen pregnancy (and presumably underage sex in general) truly isn't in keeping with the tone of the novels. I still believe Harry and Ginny are Tom's parents. (foolish & stubborn grin) If my theory is correct, Ginny travels in time almost immediately after becoming pregnant. (Any delay would mean Tom Riddle would either see Ginny was pregnant or easily deduce with simple math that he couldn't be her baby's father.) Thus even if a pregnancy occured toward the end of book 7 when Ginny is roughly 17 (and it could come about when Ginny is much older), JKR's words are still literally true: we will never look at a teen pregnancy in the series. As for the troubling thought of teen sex in the novels, I think it's likely that *if* a Ginny pregnancy occured within Harry's seven years at Hogwarts, it would--in keeping with Ginny's Virgin Mary-esque role--be the consequence of an immaculate conception resulting from a love potion that was either maliciously intended or innocently bungled. (I base this on the fact that the books keep referencing love potions but have yet to use them.) This would make the spirit of JKR's statement reasonably true as well. You could certainly disagree with my view on this. I am tending more, lately, to favor the idea that a Harry-Ginny pregnancy happens when Ginny is an adult. How this works within the scope and timeline of book 7, I can only guess. Harry could bound about in time like a heroic maniac in book seven. Colin Creevey could cast a spell with consequences in the year 2002. All I really have in regard to a Ginny pregnancy are guesses based on the few facts the texts give us about TMR's mother and Tom's birth. I remain, however, firmly convinced that no matter what strange tangle of events brings it about, Ginny and Harry are Tom's parents. My friends and family will no doubt point and laugh if/when it turns out I'm terribly mistaken. It's okay. Feel free to scoff at my stubborn silliness, John. John C wrote (quoting a JKR interview): > 1. About Lily > Q: Hi, I really like the books and we already learned a lot about Harry's > father and I was wondering 'Are we going to learn a lot about his mother?' > JKR: Yeah, you will. It's ---- yet again ---- you won't find out ---- OK, in > Book 3 you're absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry's father. Now > the important thing about Harry's mother, the really, really significant > thing, you're going to find out in 2 parts. You'll find out a lot more about > her in Book 5, or you'll find out something very significant about her in > Book 5, then you'll find out something incredibly important about her in > Book 7. But I can't tell you what those things are so I'm sorry, but yes, > you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in > what Harry ends up having to do. > > John: I think this is my favourite quote ever. I love the bit that states 'what > Harry ends up having to do'. Makes it sound like Harry has to do something, > which your average person wouldn't want to do!. But I really can't think > what important thing we found out about Lily in Book 5. The only thing I can > think of is that she didn't like James very much! Lissa wrote: I've tried to imagine what important fact Rowling could reveal about Lily in book 7 that would factor into what Harry's ends up having to do. I'm going to go off on a speculative tangent, here, and I fully expect you to disregard it and roll your eyes--and you should. I have almost *no* textual basis for this little flight of fancy. We don't know much about Lily, but we do know that JKR has said that Harry having his mother's eyes is important. What could be important about Lily's eyes? Perhaps it's nothing more than the fact that their vivid green hints at a familial connection with Salazar Slytherin. Slytherin's house waves silver and green banners and his basilisk was bright green. In the texts, green tends to represent Slytherin. If Lily is related to Salazar, perhaps the incredibly important something we learn about Harry's mother in book 7 is that she was a parselmouth. (If Lily *is* related to Salazar, the link would, I acknowledge, have to be rather far back in her ancestral line. Petunia's fear and loathing of witches and wizards doesn't suggest she's aware of any other magical members of her family tree.) Alas, this is probably quite wrong. Enough mad speculation. Cheers, Lissa B From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:51:21 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:51:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75294 GEO: Voldemort doesn't even look human. The guy has slits for eyes and seems to be lacking a nose. More so the fellow is like public enemy #1 and would be easily recognized. It would be like Hitler strolling into a public building without anyone recognizing him. Dan: But he could still wear a mask like the DEs. I'm incredibly surprised that the most evil wizard of all time didn't come up with a better plan than "lure Harry Potter to do the dirty work." He could've disguised himself, possessed Nagini again and used her to just shatter the prophecy and release it, had a Death Eater just send a curse at the prophecy, break it, then get back to Voldemort (unless Voldemort just possessed that Death Eater--save time and effort). -Dan, who is disappointed in the No Logic Lord. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 20:52:25 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:52:25 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75295 Mhershey wrote: > my question is, why couldn't LV just have Apparated in > front of the orb, taken it off the shelf, and then Disapparated? > After all, didn't he just want to stay hidden until he got the > prophecy so that he could see what was in it? Well, the question of why Voldemort didn't just go and get the prophecy himself bugged me, too, and it took several readings for me to sort it out. This is my conclusion (and opinion): Before Voldemort was aware that he and Harry were sharing thoughts, Voldemort was operating under Avery's inaccurate information that he could send a DE or someone under the Imperius Curse into the prophecy room to steal the prophecy. In Harry's vision, he sees Rookwood informing Voldemort that if anyone other than the person to whom the prophecy relates attempts to take the prophecy from the shelf, he/she will go mad and will be unable to retrieve the prophecy. So Voldemort then has to change course, but at this point he's already aware that Harry can see into his mind, so it's now far too dangerous for Voldemort to attempt to retrieve the prophecy himself. In addition, he now knows that he doesn't have to retrieve it himself - he can lure Harry into retrieving it for him. ~Phyllis From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 20:58:14 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 13:58:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030804205814.17146.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75296 --- C M wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca > Stephens > wrote: > >>>Gotta disagree here. Even exluding his behavior > with F&G he > didn't do the job. During OWLS he was going to buy > one of those > intelligence-boosting potions, instead of stopping > the sale of them. > And he didn't even bother to see if the potions were > legitimate.<<< > > Me: So we have him, 1) Calling the first years > "midgets," 2) Failing > to lay a smackdown on his older, unruly brothers who > we all know damn > well would've laughed in his face, 3) Considering > buying Firewhisky > at the Hog's Head and 4) Attempting, along with > Harry, to buy brain- > boosting products to help with exams. > > I'll agree that that's a strong case for him not > being 'prefect of > the year.' But again, we know very little about > anything else he did > as a prefect. Harry wasn't with him when he and > Hermione led the > first years to the tower (incidentally, I'd imagine > that a truly > crappy prefect would've left that job to Hermione > and gone to hang > out with his friends); for all we know he was > exceedingly helpful and > reassuring to the new students. > I can only judge by what I see. I see several incidents of him not living up to his responsibility (incidentally, I wouldn't have counted considering ordering firewhiskey among them, though I can't say why) and I see *one* incidence of him fulfilling his responsibility without prompting (meeting on the train). If I stick my hand into an opaque jar and pull out three or four green marbles and one purple marble, I will not assume the jar is mostly purple marbles - though it's possible that it is. I have to go by what is in the book. Rebecca ps lest anyone misunderstand me, I like Ron, I think he's great friend, but I don't see him doing the job job of prefect ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From drednort at alphalink.com.au Mon Aug 4 21:04:45 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:04:45 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Map of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: References: <3F282F11.30069.65734AF@localhost> Message-ID: <3F2F570D.9736.361D048@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 75297 On 4 Aug 2003 at 11:31, jeffl1965 wrote: > > Nicely done. Thank you for all the hard work. It looks quite good > to me, imho. I'll be looking forward to the changes. BTW, wouldn't > they have tubs, rather than showers? The Prefects have a tub, and as > old as Hogwarts is, I'd guess that they have tubs in all dorms. And > certainly not pirvacy stalls. Maybe new schools do, I guess, but many > old ones in Euro-Asia are still big tiled rooms with a few tubs, as > near as I can tell. Anyway, thanks again for the hard work. Yes, but until Order of the Phoenix, we had no hard data on what they had - we knew there was a Prefect's bathroom, and we knew the Quidditch pitch had showers. I went with showers simply as a space consideration in the absence of hard evidence. We had no details on what they had for normal bathing facilities. In Order of the Phoenix, we do have a clear reference to baths so the OOTP maps have taken that into account. As for privacy - mixed bag. There are plenty of schools where no privacy exists in the bathing facilities - there are plenty where it does - even quite old schools. I know a whole bunch of people who went to British boarding schools in the early 1990s (not quite contemporary with Hogwarts) and I did poll them to find out what they had around. I mainly went with privacy stalls to avoid comments from certain people - I went to a boarding school, and in my real life I have to deal with other people's horror at the conditions I endured (they weren't bad in reality - some people just think they sound bad). I didn't really want those comments relating to the maps. Straw poll! Who thinks they'd have privacy partitions in the bathrooms (NOT THE TOILETS - BRITISH ENGLISH HERE, PEOPLE - besides we have hard data on the toilets) at Hogwarts? Help me make the decision for my maps (-8 Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From MadameSSnape at aol.com Mon Aug 4 21:07:59 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:07:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peck of Owls Message-ID: <18b.1dd3f1db.2c60252f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75298 In a message dated 8/3/2003 7:22:05 PM Pacific Daylight Time, meltowne at yahoo.com writes: > cauldron of raptors > congress of ravens > kettle of nighthawks or raptors > unkindness of ravens > > some pretty bizarre names for groups! My personal favorite: A MURDER of crows. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 21:11:20 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:11:20 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > But he could still wear a mask like the DEs. I'm incredibly surprised that the most evil wizard of all time didn't come up with a better plan than "lure Harry Potter to do the dirty work." The guy has red eyes I think anyone smart enough would have known it was Voldemort. And even if he did rob the prophecy room as a DE people would be giving more credence to Dumbledore and his story that the Dark Lord was back and the MoM would have believed him especially if the prophecy on Voldemort had gone missing. > He could've disguised himself, possessed Nagini again and used her to just shatter the prophecy and release it, had a Death Eater just send a curse at the prophecy, break it, then get back to Voldemort (unless Voldemort just possessed that Death Eater--save time and effort). He had to be there in person. Possession would certainly not have worked and there might have been a chance that he would have ended up mentally damaged if he was possessing a Death Eater and the prophecy didn't recognize him and instead cursed him while he was in the DE's body which would have mentally damaged him like what it did to Podmore and Bode. From latw7 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 19:03:01 2003 From: latw7 at hotmail.com (ptrpanik) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:03:01 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Parvati Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75300 This is my first time so bear with me. I always thought there was a connection between the fact that Harry ended up going to the Yule Ball with Parvati Patil who had not be asked despite the fact that she and her sister or supposedly the prettist girls in their year. And when Harry was taking his History of Magic OWL's before the Sirus incident he was staring at Parvati's long black hair seeing lights in it in sort of a dayze. I just don't know if anyone has ever thought of her as match for Harry, she has been there under his nose the whole time. Judy From jrued at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 19:05:48 2003 From: jrued at yahoo.com (James) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:05:48 -0000 Subject: Love triangle? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75301 I was wondering what anyone else thought about when Hermione was telling Harry about Cho's confused feelings about liking Harry and her feelings for the deceased Cedric. I was thinking that maybe she was in a way talking about herself and the feelings and confusion she has for both Ron and Harry. Or do you think maybe I'm just reading a bit too much into it? From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 21:15:31 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:15:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75302 Phyllis: ...it's now far too dangerous for Voldemort to attempt to retrieve the prophecy himself. In addition, he now knows that he doesn't have to retrieve it himself - he can lure Harry into retrieving it for him. Dan: I agree that this is what Rowling was trying to get across, but I still don't think it makes any sense. Dangerous? He's a Seriously Evil Wizard, and should be able to get inside in just a couple minutes. With a disguise, even a simple one, there'd be no chance of anyone recognizing Voldemort. Ugh, Dan, who thinks he'd make a better Dark Lord than Lord Thingy. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 21:22:41 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:22:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75303 GEO: The guy has red eyes I think anyone smart enough would have known it was Voldemort. And even if he did rob the prophecy room as a DE people would be giving more credence to Dumbledore and his story that the Dark Lord was back and the MoM would have believed him especially if the prophecy on Voldemort had gone missing. Dan: Red eyes could be solved by a color changing/masking charm. He's as powerful as Dumbledore, and throws AKs around without blinking, so something so simple as a cosmetic charm or potion should be easy work. Aurors can do it, who not Him? Further, if the prophecy was stolen, do you think the MoM would tell anyone? Probably not. They were all-to-willing to allow the Prophet to report on a foiled attempt, but a successful one? Cover up! Further, everyone already knew the Death Eaters had escaped and were back. It would be expected that a DE would try to do something illegal, as opposed to living out their lives in Sweden rolling in the grass, singing showtunes. GEO: He had to be there in person. Possession would certainly not have worked and there might have been a chance that he would have ended up mentally damaged if he was possessing a Death Eater and the prophecy didn't recognize him and instead cursed him while he was in the DE's body which would have mentally damaged him like what it did to Podmore and Bode. Dan: Agreed. It's very possible the prophecy security could have been transferred psychically back to Voldemort. But we saw that curses could break the prophecies fine. A well-controlled one,aimed straight at the prophecy in question would have broken it, and allowed Voldemort to watch it roll. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 21:35:08 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:35:08 -0000 Subject: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75304 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "malinitosetti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" > > wrote: > > > Then there's Snape. I don't buy that this was Snape's worst > memory > > - > > > remember, everything is from Harry's perspective, so maybe that's > > the > > > chapter name because Harry assumes Snapes doesn't want him to see > > > these memories. But that begs the question of why Snape didn't > put > > > these memories into the Pensieve and lock it away even before > Harry > > > arrived? I suspect it served Snapes purpose in 2 parts - it was > > > information he wanted Harry to find, but also it would give him a > > > reason to yell at him when he did view the memories. > > > > > > I don't think Snape wanted Harry to see that memory... simply > judging > > by his reaction > > upon finding Harry in it. If he really had been trying to make Harry > > sneak into the > > Pensieve, I think he would at least have been able to stick to his > > usual nastiness > > instead of being downright mad with anger. As for why he didn't put > > his memories > > away before Harry arrived, I can only guess that it could have > > something to do with > > the timing, that there was something he needed to remember during > the > > beginning of > > lesson. That would of course be something from the other two > > memories, I don't > > think James & Sirius taunting him had anything to do with teaching > > Occlumency... > > > > > Otherwise, we should consider WHY this memory was one he wanted > to > > > protect? Was it the Owls, his treatment of Lily? > > > > Oh, I believe the humiliation of it all was enough to want to keep > > the event a secret. I > > don't know, I have this idea of Snape wanting to keep up an image of > > himself where > > humiliation and any kind of vulnerability really don't have a place. > > He just seems to be > > the kind of person who would react *very strongly* to being > > humiliated. > > > > evangelina > > > Well, when I read this chapter, I just had the impression that Snape > put this memory in the pensieve before starting the lesson with Harry > just to avoid thinking about his hate towards James while having to > teach something important to his son... I don't know, just my > impression... > > Mali *****\(@@)/***** I agree with you there Mali also one other thing - maybe he put the memory in the pensive because he doesn't want Harry to hear him calling his mother a Mudblood. Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 21:39:34 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:39:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why Lupin can't be evil! Message-ID: <20030804213934.94406.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75305 I have toyed with writing this for weeks now, ever since the first evil Lupin scenario and while I realize most people are not advocating this theory I just have to put in my say as to why it would devistate the entire story (and in my opinion do much more than that if Lupin turns out to be evil). Remus Lupin is not just a former DADA teacher. He is not just one of the marauders, he's not just an ex-prefect, James and Sirius's best friend, or a werewolf. He is a symbol of sensless persecution, he stands for any person who has ever been a victim of prejudice. For Lupin to be evil would promote the stereotypes that JKR has fought against so far in the books. But even more than just that..let's look at the purpose up until now that Lupin has served in the books. He is a voice of reason, concern, love in the books. While Molly and Sirius yelled to show their opinions, Remus showed he cared by just stating his opinion. His subtle way about him makes him probably the most believable character in the series. He is not over the top, yet his personality is ever prominent in the books. In one of the most touching parts of the series, Remus is moved to tears when he found out that Harry could hear James during the dementor attack. It hurt him to see Harry go through this experience, yet, he did not captilize on it and discuss all of his Hogwarts memories. No, he just simply told Harry that they were friends at school. An evil character would capitalize on Harry wanting to learn about the partronus because it would be a great way to earn Harry's trust. To lure him in. Yet, Remus hesitated when Harry first wished to learn the Patronus. He is also not scared to use Voldies name a trait that has yet to be found in any "evil" character. Not even found in the deatheaters. And in an evil more telling trait he was highly upset by his best friends death. Yet, he still tried to comfort and protect Harry and Neville. He did not run after Harry, he did not try to be the hero. He did not go into a crying fit. He remained calm. poised, strong. Yet, even Harry noted the pain in his eyes. To me that does not sound like an evil person. And I sincerely hope that nobody is able to prove me wrong. ~Mela We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 4 21:42:30 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:42:30 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "centaur1215" wrote: > > Kevin, > We learned in GOF that the Lastranges & Barty Crouch Jr & 1 other man > was sent to Azkaban because they had tortured the Longbottoms. It > was after Voldy marked Harry Just a short comment, the other man was also a Lestrange. The 4 people were Crouch. Bellatrix, Bellatrix husband Rodolphe Lestrange and his brother Rabastan. Hickengruendler From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Mon Aug 4 21:44:47 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:44:47 -0000 Subject: Tom's parents (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: <3F2EC687.6090901@colfax.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lissbell at c... wrote: (very very VERY snipped :)) > I still believe Harry and Ginny are Tom's parents. (foolish & stubborn grin) So Ginny is a descendant of Salazar Slytherin? Tom Riddle said he was related to him (SS) on his mother's side... Yep, that's all I had to say, and it seems that even you would be surprised by that small amount of objections. :) evangelina (has a headache and should really go to bed!) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 19:48:36 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 19:48:36 -0000 Subject: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75308 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > > Yes, I doubt her memory. I repeat she studies too hard to be > really brilliant. > Hermione shouldn't have a problem at all taking ten > subjects at a time, she > > studies too hard. > A.J. replied: > Good point. She is driven to be achieving, muggleborn or not. > > I said something about H. to a very intelligent and academically > accomplished acquaintance, who replied that they were Not like > Hermione because as a child, they never had to study. > > A.J. Don't forget, Hermione isn't always doing homework when she's studying! Reading "Hogwarts, a History" making Ployjuice potion, checking a huge book out of the library for "light reading"--she may study more than some, but it isn't b/c she HAS too. Also, Luna doesn't appear to have over-achieving analytical intelligence (even though she skyrockets in the right brain category), and she is in Ravenclaw. ariadne From Tasukibeth1 at cs.com Mon Aug 4 21:48:44 2003 From: Tasukibeth1 at cs.com (Beth in Sacramento) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:48:44 -0000 Subject: A new Ginny/Squid Acronym Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75309 SICK LANGOSTINO WOMAN Supported In Canon, Kids Love A Naughty Game Of Squid-dich! Tentacles Inspire Nightly Oddities; Weasley Offspring iMagines Aquatic Nuptials Beth in Sacramento p.s. langostino [lahn-goh-STEEN-oh] is the Spanish word for "PRAWN." From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:11:11 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:11:11 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75310 Buttercup: Is the "t" in Voldemort silent? Dan: Yep! It's pronounced VOL-duh-more if you want to be all French about it. Seems that in the films it's said all Englishy (ooo! an adjective!)-- VOL-duh-mort, with a hard "t." Either, I think, is perfectly valid. Steve: Rowling does not pronounce the T, I know. [snip] Even Jim Dale, who said VOL-duh-more in the audio versions of books 1-4, started pronouncing the T for book 5. Why oh why? me: I remember noticing that in the tape for book 5, also. Additionally, Jim Dale pronounced "Firenze" differently in book 5 than in book 1. (We have all 5 audiotapes; when my daughter was younger, they held her interest much better than reading the books; and they're great for long car trips! :)) In the first book's tape, he pronounced it with two syllables: fir-ENZ (which also happens to be the way Hagrid pronounces it in the first movie, not that that's canon); but in book 5, he says it with three syllables: fir-EN-zee. Personally, I don't like the 3-syllable version; it sounds uneducated, for lack of a better way to say that.... Shirley From lostris37 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:32:53 2003 From: lostris37 at hotmail.com (lostris37) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:32:53 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > Buttercup: > > Is the "t" in Voldemort silent? > > > > Dan: > > Yep! It's pronounced VOL-duh-more if you want to be all French > about it. Seems that in the films it's said all Englishy (ooo! an > adjective!)-- VOL-duh-mort, with a hard "t." Either, I think, is > perfectly valid. > > Rowling does not pronounce the T, I know. In several audio > interviews, notably the Diane Rehm Show, Rowling pronounced it VOL- > duh-more. On top of that, the Scholastic website's pronunciation > guide says VOL-duh-more. > > In an interview, Rowling said that she pronounces it VOL-duh-more, > but that she thought she was the only one who did. I would contend > that she's the only one whose pronunciation matters. > > So why did they say it differently in the film? Even Jim Dale, who > said VOL-duh-more in the audio versions of books 1-4, started > pronouncing the T for book 5. Why oh why? > > Steve Here's a small but maybe valid theory. "Voldemort" LOOKS french, and as we all know "mort" = dead in french. JK pronounces it the French way, but then she went to a muggle school where french would have been part of the curriculum. As far as I know, you don't get french at Hogwarts so it would stand to reason that in the wizarding world people would pronounce the name as they see it (or even as they THINK it should be, I refer of course to Ron Weasley's use of the word "feelytone" Aileen From music4masses at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 21:53:46 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (music4masses) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:53:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804173319.00ac8928@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75312 At 05:11 PM 8/4/2003, you wrote: >The guy has red eyes I think anyone smart enough would have known it >was Voldemort. And even if he did rob the prophecy room as a DE >people would be giving more credence to Dumbledore and his story that >the Dark Lord was back and the MoM would have believed him especially >if the prophecy on Voldemort had gone missing. > > > He could've disguised himself, possessed Nagini again and used her >to just shatter the prophecy and release it, had a Death Eater just >send a curse at the prophecy, break it, then get back to Voldemort >(unless Voldemort just possessed that Death Eater--save time and >effort). > >He had to be there in person. Possession would certainly not have >worked and there might have been a chance that he would have ended up >mentally damaged if he was possessing a Death Eater and the prophecy >didn't recognize him and instead cursed him while he was in the DE's >body which would have mentally damaged him like what it did to >Podmore and Bode. I don't recall Voldemort's name being on the prophecy bell jar, so why would he try to get it himself? He's only mentioned, and so is part, of the prophecy itself. It's not his, though, it's Harry's. Only Harry could pick up the jar, as his was the only name on it. Voldemort would have to lure him there. It seems that if he tried himself, even possessing Nagani, he'd go mad as well. We know he knew that by this point. Interesting that it was Neville who didn't want Harry to pick it up. It explains why Lucius Malfoy said something like "That's good Potter. Now give it to me" or whatever his exact words were. It never seemed necessary for LV to be there. He could keep low. This is how I understood it, anyway. Erin From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 22:01:45 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:01:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75313 Shirley: I remember noticing that in the tape for book 5, also. Additionally, Jim Dale pronounced "Firenze" differently in book 5 than in book 1. (We have all 5 audiotapes; when my daughter was younger, they held her interest much better than reading the books; and they're great for long car trips! :)) In the first book's tape, he pronounced it with two syllables: fir-ENZ (which also happens to be the way Hagrid pronounces it in the first movie, not that that's canon); but in book 5, he says it with three syllables: fir-EN-zee. Personally, I don't like the 3-syllable version; it sounds uneducated, for lack of a better way to say that.... Dan: Ick, I agree. Sounds like "frenzy." Why the change, do you think? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 22:03:37 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:03:37 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > GEO: > Red eyes could be solved by a color changing/masking charm. He's as powerful as Dumbledore, and throws AKs around without blinking, so something so simple as a cosmetic charm or potion should be easy work. Aurors can do it, who not Him? GEO:Those aurors are humans and in Tonk's case metamorphagi. Voldemort is no longer human and certainly not a metamorphagi. Again I don't think Voldemort would risk his own very neck and possible detection to get the prophecy. >Further, if the prophecy was stolen, do you think the MoM would tell anyone? Probably not. GEO: The same ministry that reported the successful escape of Bellatrix and co? So yes they would have reported it to the prophet and it would then make more people suspicious despite their attempts to hush it up. >Further, everyone already knew the Death Eaters had escaped and were >back. It would be expected that a DE would try to do something >illegal, as opposed to living out their lives in Sweden rolling in >the grass, singing showtunes. GEO:And why would they rob the prophecy room? If anything the continued presence of DEs escaping and spreading terror would have gotten more people suspicius and helped gather more people towards Dumbledore's side. Remember people were already suspicious when the ten in Azkaban escaped despite Fudge saying that Sirius was behind it. > Agreed. It's very possible the prophecy security could have been transferred psychically back to Voldemort. But we saw that curses could break the prophecies fine. A well-controlled one,aimed straight at the prophecy in question would have broken it, and allowed Voldemort to watch it roll. > GEO: A well controlled one? Magic by definition is hardly a precise science and I don't think Voldemort would have risked getting the prophecy smashed since he needed to hear it. From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 22:14:46 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:14:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75315 GEO:Those aurors are humans and in Tonk's case metamorphagi. Voldemort is no longer human and certainly not a metamorphagi. Again I don't think Voldemort would risk his own very neck and possible detection to get the prophecy. Dan: Regardless of if he's human, he can still do magic, and thus should be able to alter his appearance just as much as anyone else. Maybe there are limitations to his magical range, but I don't think whipping up a potion or charm to disguise himself would be one of them. Besides, even if it was, there's still muggle means (make up, and a wig.) GEO: The same ministry that reported the successful escape of Bellatrix and co? So yes they would have reported it to the prophet and it would then make more people suspicious despite their attempts to hush it up. Dan: True, but that was something was extremely noticible. God (Rowling) knows how they escaped. Did they blow a hole in the side of the prison, and swim? Or did they steal a boat? Or did they steal the wizard guards' wands and use those to apparate to land? An attack in the dead of night when there is no guard or security tripped, where one prophecy is stolen is probably much less noticible than 10 Death Eaters escaping out of Azkaban, and substantially easier to cover up. GEO: And why would they rob the prophecy room? If anything the continued presence of DEs escaping and spreading terror would have gotten more people suspicius and helped gather more people towards Dumbledore's side. Remember people were already suspicious when the ten in Azkaban escaped despite Fudge saying that Sirius was behind it. Dan: Um, to steal the prophecy. It would certainly be of interest, people would say, because it was about Potter and The Dark Lord. Naturally, Death Eaters would want to have it so they might figure out a way to bring him back. People knew the Death Eaters were around, and Voldemort was going to come out eventually; this was just a bit earlier than was planned. GEO: A well controlled one? Magic by definition is hardly a precise science and I don't think Voldemort would have risked getting the prophecy smashed since he needed to hear it. Dan: What about the stupefy charm--it's a thin ray that aurors and other law enforcers use on a regular basis to hit targets. It would have made a lot of sense for Voldemort to possess someone, have him carefully curse/charm the prophecy and then listen in. What about levitation charms? If touching the prophecy is what causes madness, and can only be disarmed by the touch of the subject, it could possibly just be levitated into a sack, and then the henchman could skip off into the night back to Evil HQ. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 4 22:18:27 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:18:27 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308050018.27244.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75316 El Lun 04 Ago 2003 22:51, Danger Mouse escribi?: > Dan: > But he could still wear a mask like the DEs. I'm incredibly surprised that > the most evil wizard of all time didn't come up with a better plan than > "lure Harry Potter to do the dirty work." He could've disguised himself, > possessed Nagini again and used her to just shatter the prophecy and > release it, had a Death Eater just send a curse at the prophecy, break it, > then get back to Voldemort (unless Voldemort just possessed that Death > Eater--save time and effort). -Dan, who is disappointed in the No Logic > Lord. Przemyslaw Plaskowicki: > Later MoM discovers that prophecy is missing. There are only two people > who could take it: Harry and LV. Harry couldn't -- he was under constant > care of Umbridge. So, it must have been LV -- Ministry is alarmed, milk > is spillt. Ok, Przemyslaw, so you want a trap that only 'discovers' DE, because we already know they are in the street, but not Voldie. You set a series of Portkeys in the MoM's phone cabin, to activate at a time. You can do that, as you are spying Harry. Or in all the entrances you know, just to make sure. Separate them. Stun Harry. Use Harrys hand to retrieve prophecy. If he needs to be conscious, force him. If he needs to agree, kill a few of his friends, only a few, you don't want to waste your material. Bring muggles and keep killing. If you don't like my way for separating them, try this one: set Portkeys as little objects made to be trown, by contact, them hit them with your new 'weapon'. If you set well the trap, at least half of them should be wherever you wish before they can raise wands. Ok, Voldie can kill Harry or stun Harry nor the DE. But a simple 'fishing net'? (excuse me, I'm ESL and just don't know if there is a specific word for it) should do the trick. Or, as I'm supossedly the most evil wizard of a century, I remember I can perform Imperio and I 'hire' a militar strategist. Because, well, I might not be to Avara Kadabra him, but sure he can't handle something as ten Black Belts, a SWAT or something of the like (no muggle technologies as firearms that might not work, just a good knife). How useful is Oblibiate. Just to point a few possibilities. I think if I had Voldie's experience with magic I should have more. You are right, Dan. The plan sucks. Voldemort always surprises me as how stupid can be at times. Unless Lucius is in jail *on purpose*, as the signal for the DE to rebel. Then, the MoM attack, even if went bad, is something that can be gained on, but that's an entirely different question. silmariel a.k.a Jessica Archer, a former Evil Lord (who couldn't live without counselors, even if she had powers) From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 22:16:58 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:16:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804173319.00ac8928@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75317 Erin: I don't recall Voldemort's name being on the prophecy bell jar, so why would he try to get it himself? He's only mentioned, and so is part, of the prophecy itself. It's not his, though, it's Harry's. Dan: It's also Voldemort's. The prophecy is about him, Harry, and, Dumbledore says, Neville. The subject of a prophecy is the only one who can lift it from it's shelf, as Dumbledore/Rookwood report. Harry's name was not the only one. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tmarends at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 22:24:26 2003 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:24:26 -0000 Subject: Tom's parents (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75318 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lissbell at c... wrote: > (very very VERY snipped :)) > > I still believe Harry and Ginny are Tom's parents. (foolish & > stubborn grin) > > So Ginny is a descendant of Salazar Slytherin? Tom Riddle said he was > related to > him (SS) on his mother's side... Yep, that's all I had to say, and it > seems that even you > would be surprised by that small amount of objections. :) > Better yet... Tom Riddle was taking possession of his own mother, and had he succeeded would have killed her. From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 22:23:58 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:23:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: <200308050018.27244.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75319 silmariel: You set a series of Portkeys in the MoM's phone cabin, to activate at a time. You can do that, as you are spying Harry. Or in all the entrances you know, just to make sure. Separate them. Stun Harry. Use Harrys hand to retrieve prophecy. If he needs to be conscious, force him. If he needs to agree, kill a few of his friends, only a few, you don't want to waste your material. Bring muggles and keep killing. If you don't like my way for separating them, try this one: set Portkeys as little objects made to be trown, by contact, them hit them with your new 'weapon'. If you set well the trap, at least half of them should be wherever you wish before they can raise wands. Dan: A cunning plan. A very good plan. One that the Dark Lord *should have thought of,* but didn't. That's just why I find him unbelievable as a villain. I seriously hope he's got more up his sleeve than "I'm so evil! See how evil I am? I'm going to do this very obvious, poorly thought out plan with several serious flaws!" and only tries to kill Harry after watching a couple spy movies. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 22:27:46 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:27:46 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <20030804205814.17146.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75320 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: >>>I can only judge by what I see.<<< Me: Actually, you can only judge by what Harry sees/hears. >>>Rebecca: I see several incidents of him not living up to his responsibility (incidentally, I wouldn't have counted considering ordering firewhiskey among them, though I can't say why) and I see *one* incidence of him fulfilling his responsibility without prompting (meeting on the train).<<< Me: Did you see the part in Chapter 21 (pg. 451, American Ed) where some of Ron and Hermione's prefect duties were detailed? They helped supervise the decoration of the castle for the Holidays, they kept an eye on the First and Second Years during breaks and they patrolled the corridors in shifts with Mr. Filch. Ron clearly did these things because he complains about them to Harry afterwards. So that's at least three more incidences of him fulfilling his responsibilities you can add to your list. He's doing his job. Not always perfectly, not always happily, but he's doing it. CM From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 22:29:40 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:29:40 -0000 Subject: Harry the Auror... NOT! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepingblyx" wrote: > Karen: > Still, maybe he can be the DADA teacher and a Quidditch > > coach! :-) > > > I know I replied to this thread earlier... but who thinks that > Harry will actually *live*? > > _Blyx_ Harry will not become the DADA teacher. JKR has stated in interviews that he will not. Check out www.hp-lexicon.org/resources.html for interviews, or go to www.hp-lexicon.org/index-2.html for an index and search engines. JKR has said both Harry and Hermione will NOT be Hogwarts teachers. You will also see in these interviews that on more than one occasion she has responded to a question with something like "So you think Harry lives", or "You are assuming Harry lives until the end" (I paraphrased these, but you can find details on the referenced sites) Now to answer Blyx-I would like to see him live, but I fear he does not. Obviously, we will see him pursue some NEWTS and classes toward a career, but we will never see him around to actually have it. Now just to play devil's advocate, what if Harry sensing that his demise is an eventuality, decides he's had enough school and can better serve the WW and the OOP by leaving school. After all, precedent has been set by F and G. From Tasukibeth1 at cs.com Mon Aug 4 22:34:10 2003 From: Tasukibeth1 at cs.com (Beth in Sacramento) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:34:10 -0000 Subject: Peck of Owls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75322 > Then there's the: > > cauldron of raptors > congress of ravens > kettle of nighthawks or raptors > unkindness of ravens > > some pretty bizarre names for groups! > > I found these by looking up "bird group names" in a search engine. > > Melinda I have also heard a group of ravens referred to as a murder :-) Beth in Sacramento From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 22:37:06 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:37:06 -0000 Subject: Fred and George OOP Operatives (was RE: ..leaving) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, p51263 at a... wrote: > They already have been replaced when the were banned off the team and I think > they are more than ready to leave school when they did. My theory is that > they reached an enpasse in there studies and needed a change of venue to expanded > their horizons and abilities as wizards. They will always be their for the > Order of Phoenix if asked. This is my opion on Fred and George. > Patricia > What a cool cover-two drop outs running a Joke shop. I can see all kinds of contraband, messages, etc. changing hands through them. It would also be a perfect place for the gang, HRH, to base their little group out of during holidays, after all a lot of the WW thinks Harry is a nut case thanks to Fudge. What better place to hang out. A.G. From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 22:36:28 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 15:36:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peck of Owls References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75324 Beth: I have also heard a group of ravens referred to as a murder :-) Dan: Yes, as I recall, there was an episode where Homer Simpson was attacked by ravens and referred to them as such. Hilarity ensues. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mbush at lainc.com Mon Aug 4 22:37:44 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:37:44 -0000 Subject: Lily's magical abilities? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75325 Ariadne wrote: I started re-reading the pensieve scene in Snape's Worst Memory, > and noticed a little detail that I missed before. Here's the snippet: > > "LEAVE HIM ALONE!" Lilly shouted. She had her own wand out now. > James and Sirius eyed it warily. > > "Ah, Evans, don't make me hex you," said James earnestly. > > Take the curse off him then!" > > James sighed deeply, then turned to Snape and muttered the > countercurse. > > > Isn't that interesting, the way it's phrased? James is threatening > to hex Lily, more or less, (maybe in jest), and it's like Lily > doesn't hear it, or knows he can't/won't do it, or whatever. That > got me thinking, not only does Lily stand up to James and Sirius, > something Lupin won't even do, but James and Sirius "eyed her wand > warily." They aren't looking at Snape warily even though he came to > school knowing more curses than a 6th or 7th year! > > So, what's the deal? Is Lily very powerful when it comes to her > magical ability? Is her ability in charms greater than curses and > hexes? Wondering, wondering... This is interesting... They are fifth years here, and we know that Lily and James were Head Boy and Girl in thier 7th year, so prusumably the best wizards of the students of thier year. Surely there would be some evidence of that by 5th year. I mean, is anyone including Malfoy really going to mess with Hermione regardless of how many curses he may know? Maybe this is the same sort of scenario. They know she knows more charms or whatever than they do, and thus don't really want to mess with her. (I know there has been discussion recently about Hermione having to study "too hard" but in class the charms and things come easily to her, maybe that is because she has "pre-studied" or maybe because she does just get it.) I think Lily is probably very powerful. Hagrid alludes to it too in SS/PS (sorry don't have the book here). How this relates to James' ability, one can only guess at this point, but we do know from Olivander that Lily's wand was good for charms, and James' for Transfiguration... maybe this is a clue to their real strangths, and since James isn't transfiguring Snape, he knows that he isn't a match for Lily and her Charm work because even if they aren't aware of the wand's strenghts, surely some of their own have started becoming evident. (and James may be "flirting" with Lily at this point to some extent too.) Mtwelovett From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Aug 4 22:39:47 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:39:47 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: <200308041747.35450.silmariel@telefonica.net> References: <200308041747.35450.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <3F2EE0B3.6070506@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75326 Carolina wrote: > > Yes, I doubt her memory. I repeat she studies too hard to be really brilliant. > My cousin is licensed in mathematics (doctor), physics (doctor) and chemistry > and I know she studied about 3-4 months a year, study became a full job only > for doctorates. Of course, she didn't open a book as a teenager. > > I'm just a system analist (three years), but I don't think I've ever studied > more than 7 days for one 6-month College subject (and that's my upper limit). > Hermione shouldn't have a problem at all taking ten subjects at a time, she > studies too hard. Ouch, that hurt. Hermione is brilliant. She spends lots of time with books because she goes much deeper and wider than the home work requires. Nobody asked her to read "Hogwarts, the history". Nobody asked her to look up the animagi list in PoA. Nobody asked her to rewrite the finished essay because she learned some new information at the last moment. She studies all the time because she can't keep her mind idle. What you describe is a student who does exactly the amount he is required to, who will read exactly to the page the teacher said and not a sentence more. That should not take too much time with a bit of brain, true, but that's nothing to do with Hermione. Irene > > silmariel > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 22:51:36 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:51:36 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon reward for DE Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75327 Will someone help me out please? I know you like the canon for something, but I have been unable to relocate the page on which we read that there was a 1000 Galleon reward offered for information on the whereabouts of the DEs who escaped Azkaban. Would someone let me know the citation, please. My thought is this, Harry et al were heavily involved in assisting with the recapture of most of the elusive Death Eaters at the end of OOP. So, will H, R, H, Luna, Neville or Ginny share in any of that reward. Ultimately, order members helped wrap it all up and Dumbledore of course, but it just may mean someone comes into some more money. If so, who and what will they do with the money? Atropos Gryffin From EnsTren at aol.com Mon Aug 4 22:54:30 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:54:30 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? Message-ID: <190.1e143c69.2c603e26@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75328 In a message dated 8/4/2003 4:02:44 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mhersheybar at hotmail.com writes: > Here is something that has bothered me about the whole "setting Harry > up to get the prophecy" thing. I know the implication is that LV > didn't want to go get the prophecy himself because it would risk > being seen, so he had to invent a trap to lure Harry there instead. > However, the entire description of the MoM leading up to the point > where Harry actually takes the orb off the shelf is one of an utterly > dark, quiet, closed place in the middle of the night. I mean, the > six Hogwarts kids spend what seems to be quite a long time there > before they get to the orb room, roaming around, making some noise, > looking at things, etc., and no one comes running - they don't trip > any sensors, etc. It doesn't even appear that any Order members are > guarding the door anymore - when did that stop? After the attack on > Arthur? So my question is, why couldn't LV just have Apparated in > front of the orb, taken it off the shelf, and then Disapparated? > After all, didn't he just want to stay hidden until he got the > prophecy so that he could see what was in it? I had the same thought, but I think I figured it out. Harry is at Hogwarts. He is accounted for. He cannot apperate. They can track his magic. Therefore if the orb disappears it can't be Harry, thus it MUST be Voldemort. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Cfitz812 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 23:12:19 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:12:19 -0000 Subject: Petunia Dursley In-Reply-To: <20030804001557.70090.qmail@web13310.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Stacy Berinsky wrote: > No, I don't think she could be a squib, because that would imply that her family was compromised of witches and wizards, and her sister lily is always described as being born of muggles. > > Me: Yes, but how do you explain Harry seeing others in the Mirror of Erised with green eyes? Granted that the mirror shows the deepest, most desperate desire of your heart, but Harry saw other ancestors (i.e., an old man with his "knobby knees"). I believe there's more to Petunia than simply jealously, whether it's being a squib or not. Petunia's the only one with heart in the Dursley family. She hides it well, yes, but is only hiding it nonetheless, IMHO. Claire [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From editor at texas.net Mon Aug 4 23:17:07 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:17:07 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: <3F2EC421.5090509@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75330 > >I know its what a lot of people say, but Hitler was never elected as leader of the country. He ran, but was defeated. > > > Well, technically George W. Bush wasn't elected either ;-). Okay, guys, we skate perilously close to the political line here. Please keep the side notes and political opinions out of the postings. Other than that, carry on. ~BeingSeriousForOnce!Amandageist, who remembers some of the politics on the list during the elections and does NOT want that again From Cfitz812 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 23:29:12 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:29:12 -0000 Subject: Dudley a wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Luck" wrote: > Supose Dudley turns out to be a wizard, how do you think Vernon and > Petunia is going to react to that? Me: I personally think Dudley is well named--he's a "dud" at pretty much everything except bullying (which is why he's so good at boxing). I doubt very much he's going to be a wizard. Having said that, though, JKR rather delights in turning ones theories upside down. However, I would hope he wouldn't; it does give a leg up, finally, to Harry in their relationship. Claire From music4masses at earthlink.net Mon Aug 4 23:35:55 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (Erin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 16:35:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804173319.00ac8928@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804161624.00b931b8@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75332 At 03:16 PM 8/4/2003 -0700, you wrote: >Dan: >It's also Voldemort's. The prophecy is about him, Harry, and, Dumbledore >says, Neville. The subject of a prophecy is the only one who can lift it >from it's shelf, as Dumbledore/Rookwood report. Harry's name was not the >only one. > >Erin: Okay, gotcha. Sorry. I'm now looking at the "spidery writing". For some reason, I looked right past "Dark Lord" when reading. Blurry vision, probably. Still, I'm not sold it made sense for LV to get it himself and risk exposing himself once the snake trick failed. Not with his "understanding" of Harry's penchant for heroics. Employeeing DEs does seem the safest, most discreet strategy at that point. Not to simplify things needlessly, but I don't want to over analyze too much either. Thanks for getting me to look and think about it again. Erin From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 23:51:46 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:51:46 -0000 Subject: Peck of Owls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Beth in Sacramento" wrote: > > > Then there's the: > > > > cauldron of raptors > > congress of ravens > > kettle of nighthawks or raptors > > unkindness of ravens > > > > some pretty bizarre names for groups! > > > > I found these by looking up "bird group names" in a search engine. > > > > Melinda > > > I have also heard a group of ravens referred to as a murder :-) > > Beth in Sacramento Sof: My personal fave: a parliament of rooks. Yes, I;m a Sandman fan. My 11th grade bio teacher had a poster that listed a ton of names of animal groupings. From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 23:55:04 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:55:04 -0000 Subject: Add/take a few commas Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75334 I was just wondering about the prophesy (yea, really - me, too) - maybe if a comma or two were added or taken out of the text of the prophesy - could that change anything about the meaning of what it might say? Maybe give or take a full-stop/period......? Sometimes only a small change of punctuations can change a lot. English is not my native language so Im leaving it up to you all to try it out :) Inge From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 5 00:03:33 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:03:33 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308050203.33719.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75335 El Mar 05 Ago 2003 00:14, Danger Mouse escribi?: > Dan: > True, but that was something was extremely noticible. God (Rowling) knows > how they escaped. Did they blow a hole in the side of the prison, and swim? > Or did they steal a boat? Or did they steal the wizard guards' wands and > use those to apparate to land? IMO what makes sense is that they were released, but that's only I believe in DD when he doesn't trust them. To me, Azkaban has been a way for Voldie to keep safe his DE waiting for him, even if I haven't dared post the idea, for is opinion entirely based. I don't know when the betrayal was signed, but I don't think Lucius will stay long there. Why? Just literary sense, not canon. Things are going to darken before the end. silmariel From psnow at nipha.com Tue Aug 5 00:13:19 2003 From: psnow at nipha.com (mrnipha) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:13:19 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > Kevin: > > > Is it possible that in the year between Harry (and Neville's) > births and when LV killed > > the Potter's that The Longbottom's went mad and Neville was sent to > his > > Grandmother's? I can't recall if there is a specified timeline > with respect to that, > > but.... > > > > Crouch Jr and the Lestranges crucio'd the Longbottoms into insanity > after Voldemort attacked the Potters. In GoF Dumbledore explains to > Harry after Harry sees Crouch Jr in the Pensieve that they were > looking for Voldemort and thought the Longbottoms had information on > his whereabouts. > > KathyK The question remaining after GOF that I think is answered in OoTP is *why* the Lestranges and Crouch Jr might think that the Longbottoms would know the whereabouts of Voldemort. We learn in OoTP that the DE's knew about the portion of the prophesy that motivated Voldemort to attack Harry (The scene in the Prophesy Room; further explanation by Dumbledore later). As the prophesy correctly predicted Harry's survival and the vanquishment of Voldemort (Dumbledore uses the term Vanquish in describing the situation of his decision to place Harry with the Dursley's), the Lestranges and Crouch would have hoped that 1) the rest of the prophesy would fortell what happened to Voldemort, and 2) Dumbledore would have told the prophesy to the parents of the two boys born at the end of July who had thrice defied Voldemort (James and Lily Potter were dead, but Frank and Alice Longbottom were not). We know in retrospect that the prophesy said nothing about what would happen to Voldemort after he had been vanquished and marked the one (Harry), but the DE's didn't. JMHO MrNipha From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 00:15:43 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:15:43 -0000 Subject: McGonagall's cookies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lewa8978" wrote: > One thing I noticed when reading OoP was McGonagall's insistance that > Harry eat a cookie. I don't have my book handy, but I think this > actually happens twice, and then later the tin of cookies is knocked > over. Is there something important about Harry eating the cookies? > Here's what I'm thinking: right around the time the cookies come up, > there is a potions class where they discuss a calming potion. Is it > possible that McGonagall has "laced" the cookies with something and > that's why she pushes them on Harry? If I recall correctly, she even > insists on making him take one for the road. Again, I don't have my > book handy, so if I remember this incorrectly, please be kind. > > Jen Jen, Check out message 67476 and the threads from it...Minerva's cookies were discussed there with similar thoughts. Tcy (amazed that this post is so short when it took more than 10 minutes to track down that post number) From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Aug 5 00:26:39 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:26:39 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Mirror (was Re: Petunia Dursley) References: Message-ID: <003f01c35ae8$3d585ee0$3e9ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75338 Claire wrote: > Yes, but how do you explain Harry seeing others in the Mirror of > Erised with green eyes? Granted that the mirror shows the deepest, > most desperate desire of your heart, but Harry saw other ancestors Well that's easy enough to explain. The mirror gives "Neither knowledge nor truth." Simple enough. It took a combination of the memories Harry had of his parents and showed him them along with nonexistent people who had similar features. The eyes, the knees, the hair, and so on. I personally think the only "real" people the mirror showed were Harry, James and Lily. Just because the mirror showed things it doesn't mean they were real. Richelle From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 5 00:39:51 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:39:51 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's Wand (Was: OWLs & future Aurors) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308050239.51454.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75339 > Also, Luna > doesn't appear to have over-achieving analytical intelligence (even > though she skyrockets in the right brain category), and she is in > Ravenclaw. > > ariadne Just add a good memory, eager to knowledge, easy to understand and repeating. You don't need to have over-achieving analytical intelligence not to need studying. I don't claim to be a genius, but > I said something about H. to a very intelligent and academically > accomplished acquaintance, who replied that they were Not like > Hermione because as a child, they never had to study. I studied a little. 12 hours for the whole latin year, at 15. Irene: <> Don't think so. I was 10 on all the works (keep with latin), because I took the time to go to the library and read, I loved reading mithology, poetry, science essays, threatre, foreign authors. I liked sciences also, loved physics as my teacher made me think hours sometimes. I loved to learn. But I bored half the time. I only needed half the class to take notes, memorice and understand. I hated being always the one who was expected to come with the right answers. Works didn't take all the time, also. Hey, last year I read the whole genetics text for Biology College, Murcia, Spain (wich you can find has international reputation, the College, not the text), because I keep liking biology and had a holiday week. I'm a sort of computer-work, and no one outstanding, but I did far away it was required (as chosing to read 700 pages books in English instead of the 30 pages summaries). And I had a lot of time free. I'll be glad to be a Ravenclaw. silmariel From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 5 00:39:20 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:39:20 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > But he could still wear a mask like the DEs. I'm incredibly surprised that the most evil wizard of all time didn't come up with a better plan than "lure Harry Potter to do the dirty work." He could've disguised himself, possessed Nagini again and used her to just shatter the prophecy and release it, had a Death Eater just send a curse at the prophecy, break it, then get back to Voldemort (unless Voldemort just possessed that Death Eater--save time and effort). < That presumes Voldemort knew what would happen if a Prophecy orb were shattered, or even knew that they *could* be shattered. Hermione tells us about an Unbreakability charm which she used to seal Rita in her bottle. Rookwood may have believed that the Orbs couldn't be broken. Also, I'm not sure that Voldemort would have trusted any one else to relay the Prophecy to him. He'd already been burnt once by not hearing the whole thing. As far as Voldemort raiding the Ministry in person, how could he be sure Dumbledore hadn't set a trap for him? Only by getting Harry to be his stalking horse. Pippin From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 00:48:30 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 17:48:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75341 Pippin: As far as Voldemort raiding the Ministry in person, how could he be sure Dumbledore hadn't set a trap for him? Only by getting Harry to be his stalking horse. Dan: Good point about Voldemort's limited knowledge of the Hall of Prophecy. I've just assumed Rookwood would tell Voldemort everything we found out, but we don't know that he did... and about the trap--how did Voldemort get through all of the MoM's security? For the head of the British Wizarding World, I'd think they'd have some hefty magic protecting it, but it seems not. Unless Voldemort broke through them already. I'm not sure what kind of trap Dumbledore could've laid, anyways. Voldemort seems good at breaking through magical seals, even as a tumor (SS, the Gringotts Vault escapade). -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 5 00:53:41 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:53:41 -0000 Subject: Why Lupin can't be evil! In-Reply-To: <20030804213934.94406.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75342 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > He is also not scared to use Voldies name a trait that has yet to be found in any "evil" character. Not even found in the deatheaters. < Sorry, but the impostor Moody uses Voldemort's name. JKR also obviously doesn't buy the theory that victims of prejudice or evil can't be prejudiced or evil themselves. The centaurs, the giants and the goblins are all shown to be victims of prejudice, and yet they are all shown either attacking wizards unjustly or considering whether to join Voldemort. Pippin From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 00:57:24 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:57:24 -0000 Subject: Map of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <3F2F570D.9736.361D048@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > Straw poll! Who thinks they'd have privacy partitions in the bathrooms > (NOT THE TOILETS - BRITISH ENGLISH HERE, PEOPLE - besides we have hard > data on the toilets) at Hogwarts? Help me make the decision for my maps > (-8 Are we meant to repy on-list? Anyway, I vote for PRIVACY because: 1/ It goes nicely with the big four-poster beds with hangings all around them (yes, I *know* the hangings were invented to keep in body heat in a cold room, but the dormitory just has a nice, cozy feel to it), and 2/ Because there is a certain amount of luxury in the castle such as the golden plates in the great hall, the huge tub with the rediculous profusion of taps for the prefects, the general spaciousness of the castle and grounds, etc. 3/ What the heck, they built it magically, how hard could it have been? Annemehr who would like to slide down the girs' staircase after a boy steps on it... From acoteucla at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 01:17:40 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:17:40 -0000 Subject: Lupin Loved Lily? In-Reply-To: <410-2200381419935567@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75344 Sigh... you have zeroed in on the two biggest flaws of my theory. I like to ignore those flaws, because everything else works out so nicely. I'll answer your objections as best I can, but it'll be mostly speculation - no canon to back up my ideas. > Wendy: > > "You sold Lily and James to Voldemort," said Black, who was shaking too. > "Do you deny it?" > > Pettigrew burst into tears. It was horrible to watch: he looked like an > oversized, balding baby, cowering on the floor." > > "Sirius, Sirius what could I have done? The Dark Lord . . . you have no > idea . . . he has weapons you can't imagine . . . I was scared, Sirius, I > was never brave ilke you and Remus and James. I never meant it to happen . > . . He Who Must Not Be Named forced me - " > > "DON'T LIE!" bellowed Black. "YOU'D BEEN PASSING INFORMATION TO HIM FOR A > YEAR BEFORE LILY AND JAMES DIED! YOU WERE HIS SPY!" > > "He - he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew. "Wh-what was there > to be gained by refusing him?" > > > Peter does not deny that he betrayed James and Lily, nor does he deny that > he was spying for a year beforehand, either. So I think he did both of > those things. This doesn't mean that Lupin wasn't also doing these things. > I am wondering how you reconcile your theory of Lupin's involvement here > with the canon we already have pointing to Peter. Me, now: Imagine the scenario that would have played out if Peter HAD denied that he had been passing LV information for a year. Sirius would have snorted in disgust. Ron would have rolled his eyes. C'mon, would YOU have believed him? Maybe Peter knew this, and didn't even bother to refute it. Of course, I don't really believe that. Peter would have jumped at any opportunity to refute what they were saying, even if he knew it was hopeless. Another possibility is that he was so emotionally distraught at this point (he was crying and cowering like a baby), that he didn't fully register what Sirius had accused him of. Or maybe he had done some small thing to be ashamed of (like talking to a death-eater, then getting cold feet), and he thought this was what Sirius was accusing him of. However, my favored explanation is that Lupin performed a memory- alteration spell on Peter, just like Shacklebolt did on Edgecomb. > Wendy: > > Here's the big question that your post raised for me: Where does this put > Lupin now in terms of loyalty? Why would he continue to serve Voldemort > after Voldie killed the woman he loved - the woman Voldemort had promised > to spare at Lupin's request? It seems that this scenario might point to a > Reformed-DeathEater!Lupin, more so than an activitely ESE!Lupin. And I > don't see ReformedDeathEater!Lupin as being a very likely possiblity. So, > why would Lupin be loyal to Voldemort now? Me again: Well, Lupin is Ever So Evil. He's looking out for his own skin. Now that he has joined up with Voldemort's gang, to then say "never mind" might be a fatal mistake. Better to stick it out with Voldemort than to risk it. Another possibility is that Lupin only asked Voldemort to TRY and save Lily's life. Voldemort says "if she isn't smart enough to take my offer, there's not much I can do," and Lupin agrees to this. Lupin knows that Voldemort really did give Lily a chance (when Harry describes his Dementor-induced memories). Maybe Lupin's sympathies always lay with Voldemort, and so even though he killed Lily, he decides to stick it out with him. From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 01:20:58 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's 16th birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805012058.45271.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75345 Geoff Bannister wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazelkid" wrote: I was thinking that Harry might receive the giant flying mototcycle on which Hagrid delivered him to the Dursley's (It belonged to Sirius). Wouldn't that be cool? Harry on a motorcycle -- then all he'd need was a leather cloak (har har) ------------------- I was thinking that too! When Sirius gave the bike to Hagrid he said he wouldn't be needing it anymore, and I doubt Hagrid got rid of it. I expect it's another gift he'll have coming in bk6. Climb on, Cho, let's go! owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psnow at nipha.com Tue Aug 5 01:24:39 2003 From: psnow at nipha.com (mrnipha) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:24:39 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pippin_999" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > > > But he could still wear a mask like the DEs. I'm incredibly > > surprised that the most evil wizard of all time didn't come up with > > a better plan than "lure Harry Potter to do the dirty work." > As far as Voldemort raiding the Ministry in person, how could he > be sure Dumbledore hadn't set a trap for him? Only by getting > Harry to be his stalking horse. > > Pippin Voldemort knows (as shown in the snake vs Arthur Weasley incident) that the Order is watching/guarding the Department of Mysteries so a trap to reveal Voldemort while at the Ministry retrieving the prophesy is high on the probability list. Merely the possiblity of Dumbledore doing something as simple as turning the prophesy globe into a portkey that would transport one to a place that cannot be apparated from to easily escape detection would make the risk to Voldemort too great. JMHO MrNipha From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 01:25:33 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:25:33 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Regardless of if he's human, he can still do magic, and thus should be able to alter his appearance just as much as anyone else. Maybe there are limitations to his magical range, but I don't think whipping up a potion or charm to disguise himself would be one of them. Besides, even if it was, there's still muggle means (make up, and a wig.) GEO: We don't know that. Voldemort isn't even human seeing how he was able to survive Avada Kedavra. > True, but that was something was extremely noticible. God (Rowling) knows how they escaped. Did they blow a hole in the side of the prison, and swim? Or did they steal a boat? Or did they steal the wizard guards' wands and use those to apparate to land? An attack in the dead of night when there is no guard or security tripped, where one prophecy is stolen is probably much less noticible than 10 Death Eaters escaping out of Azkaban, and substantially easier to cover up. Azkaban is isolated island off in the North Sea guarded by Dementors so there wouldn't be much of a wizard presence. I really don't think anyone would have noticed if the ten escaped unless the Ministry wished to reveal it. > Dan: > Um, to steal the prophecy. It would certainly be of interest, people would say, because it was about Potter and The Dark Lord. Naturally, Death Eaters would want to have it so they might figure out a way to bring him back. People knew the Death Eaters were around, and Voldemort was going to come out eventually; this was just a bit earlier than was planned. GEO:veryone else, but Dumbledore and his loyal order thought Voldemort was dead and wasn't about to come back. If anything the robbery of the prophecy room for whatever reasons would have attracted more supporters to Dumbledore and his ootp. > Dan: > What about the stupefy charm--it's a thin ray that aurors and other law enforcers use on a regular basis to hit targets. GEO: Stupefy is a stunning charm used on people not objects. >It would have made a lot of sense for Voldemort to possess someone, have him carefully curse/charm the prophecy and then listen in. What about levitation charms? If touching the prophecy is what causes madness, and can only be disarmed by the touch of the subject, it could possibly just be levitated into a sack, and then the henchman could skip off into the night back to Evil HQ. Maybe you haven't thought about this, but couldn't the prophecies be charmed so that only human hands not magic could remove them? If anything I think you are underestimating both the ministry in their security matters and Voldemort in his planning the theft of the prophecy especially with so many unknown variables. From rickjen at lewandowskifamily.com Mon Aug 4 20:36:02 2003 From: rickjen at lewandowskifamily.com (lewa8978) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:36:02 -0000 Subject: Prophecy question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75348 OK, I may be way off here, but I have to ask a question: Harry's vision that took him to the MoM was of V trying to get Siruis to take down the prophecy, and Siruis refusing. When Harry asks Malfoy Sr. what the prophecy is, he seems surprised that Harry doesn't know. I think he even says that that explains why he (Harry) hadn't been to the ministry sooner. So.... if V didn't know Harry didn't know what the prophecy was, then V didn't know that Harry didn't know that only the people in the prophecy could take it down. Then V didn't know that Harry wouldn't know that an attempt to fake it would work. Confusing??? V wouldn't think to use Siruis as a decoy of he thought that Harry would know that Sirius wasn't in the prophecy and therefore couldn't take it down. But he did use Siruis, without knowing that Harry was ignorant of this stipulation. Therefore.....V must have thought that Harry would believe Siruis could take down the prophecy. See if that sinks in..... From lostris37 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 20:44:03 2003 From: lostris37 at hotmail.com (lostris37) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:44:03 -0000 Subject: pronunciation of Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75349 Just a thought...... "Voldemort" - looks French as we know mort = dead. JK uses the French pronunciation. But....JK went to a muggle school where French lessons would have been included in the curriculum. As far as I know French is not taught at Hogwarts therefore it would make sense that people in the wizarding world would pronounce the name as it is written. Maybe that's what she meant when she said that she thought she was the only one using the French pronunciation. Anyway there are some funny pronunciations going on in the Wizarding World. What about Mr Weasley's "eckletricity" or Ron's "fellytone". Does this sound reasonable anyone?? A@ the best Aileen From darkthirty at shaw.ca Tue Aug 5 01:30:05 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (Dan Feeney) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:30:05 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry/Parvati In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ptrpanik" wrote: > This is my first time so bear with me. I always thought there was a > connection between the fact that Harry ended up going to the Yule Ball > with Parvati Patil who had not be asked despite the fact that she and > her sister or supposedly the prettist girls in their year. And when > Harry was taking his History of Magic OWL's before the Sirus incident > he was staring at Parvati's long black hair seeing lights in it in > sort of a dayze. I just don't know if anyone has ever thought of her > as match for Harry, she has been there under his nose the whole time. > > Judy We are a very very tiny group, Judy, we Harry/Parvati shippers, probably just a handfull of us; and you have, to all intents and purposes, in your short post, given most of the canon evidence for the ship. Nevertheless, the passage you mention, about the little lights, struck me too. So did the little mention of the power of Parvati's reducto in Dumbledore's Army - reduced a table to dust, it says. Now, I surely hope Rowling isn't setting up Parvati to be evil. I have placed Parvati at the centre of all of my dismal attempts at fan fiction - but Rowling's plan for her, if there is much of one, is illusive. Facility with a destructive spell, adoration of Trewlawney, a measure of vanity regarding her appearance, and a straightforward practicality when it comes to grades - witness her direct comments to Umbridge regarding theory and practise in the DADA OWL. Not much evidence for us. Is there a thematic route, then, we could take? Perhaps Parvati isn't, or won't be, so much a seer as a rememberer. Any ideas? dan From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 20:47:30 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:47:30 -0000 Subject: Petunia knowing Dementors & James Potter's family In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feuerzahn_17" wrote: > When I first read the part about petunia knowing dementors I thought > that she probably knows them, because they "killed" her parents.that > is why she knows that they suck peoples soul.It is said somewhere in > the books that dementors were involved in the worst muggle killings > during the first war. > did anyone of you think the same?could be possible,couldn`t it? Hi I think this is an interesting idea. It would certainly account for the mysterious lack of any family on Lily and Petunia's side. Maybe they all got killed at a family gathering of some sort - maybe even the Dementors were accompanied by Voldemort, and the killing was one of the three attacks made on James & Lily, and they only just got away in time with Harry. Petunia says she remembered because of 'what that boy said' - if this is what happened, there certainly would have been a lot of tearful explanation gone on between Petunia, Lily and James. Here's another idea about James's side of the family, re post no 75184. I think he'll turn out to be from another one of the rich wizard families who mainly went over to the dark side, apart from his mother and father. I think this common background was what formed an instant bond between him and Sirius. Also, it would account a lot for the arrogant way that both boys come across to Harry when he sees them in Snape's memory. When I read that scene, it appeared to me, as a Brit, that they were both prime examples of the archetypal rich, careless, privileged, clever, handsome, badly behaved, but oh-so charming public schoolboys that our system churns out so effectively. Think Hugh Grant with brains and attitude. OK, so they both learned some humility as they grew up, but I saw their behaviour in that scene as quite a giveaway. Probably Petunia feels additional bitterness because she knows that her sister married so much 'better' than she did, its the sort of thing she'd care about. CW From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 21:17:15 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:17:15 -0000 Subject: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75352 I've seen a number of posts suggesting that each of the Marauders belonged to a different house. There seems to be general agreement that James was a Gryffindor (this is canon)and Remus would have been a Ravenclaw. I can see Peter being a Hufflepuff, but Sirius a Slytherin? He never displayed the kind of ruthless ambition that characterizes that house. If he had been at all ambitious, he would not have broken with his family, who were purebloods and seemed to have quite a lot of status in the WW. In fact, you might argue that his unswerving loyalty to his friends would put him in Hufflepuff, leaving Peter in Slytherin, where he belongs. He just doesn't seem like a Hufflepuff, though-he's too bright, too brash and too reckless. So what do you all think? A possible problem with the theory overall is that I'm not sure that making Remus a prefect in Ravenclaw would have much effect on the behavior of James and Sirius if they were in different houses. I know prefects can take points from any house, but I can't really see Remus doing that to Moony or Padfoot. Being a Gryffindor prefect would at least let him keep an eye on them a lot of the time. Laura From arioth at peoplepc.com Mon Aug 4 21:18:04 2003 From: arioth at peoplepc.com (arioth1) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:18:04 -0000 Subject: Augustus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75353 OK. I tried doing a search of the archives on this subject, but came up empty-handed. Did anyone else notice there were two characters (albeit both minor characters) named Augustus in OOP-Augustus Rookwood-DE and Augustus Pye-Trainee Healer. I didn't think JKR ever reused names. I can't think of any other characters that have the same first names. Am I forgetting some? Is there any significance to this, or am I just being overly analytical. Any ideas or info would be greatly appreciated. Arioth From cubs9911 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 21:40:49 2003 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:40:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75354 Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius pronounced like the word Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name in my head as Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name I guess I would subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly I always read prefects as perfects. Joe (knowing that unfortunatly no matter how his name is pronounced, he is still gone) From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 22:36:27 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:36:27 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Shirley: > I remember noticing that in the tape for book 5, also. Additionally, > Jim Dale pronounced "Firenze" differently in book 5 than in book 1. [snipped my own original] In the first book's tape, he pronounced it > with two syllables: fir-ENZ (which also happens to be the way Hagrid > pronounces it in the first movie, not that that's canon); but in book > 5, he says it with three syllables: fir-EN-zee. Personally, I don't > like the 3-syllable version; it sounds uneducated, for lack of a > better way to say that.... > > Dan: > Ick, I agree. Sounds like "frenzy." Why the change, do you think? > Shirley: 'Ick' is right; Firenze (the character) is anything but that. How could anyone be so calm about getting kicked (literally and figuratively) out of his herd and barely escaping death? So, why the change? I have no idea, unless he (Jim Dale) just didn't have time to go back and refresh his memory of book 1; I read an interview with him (please don't ask where - I've completely lost track of all the interviews I've read in the last several weeks) where he said he only had a week or so to do the audiotapes. He said he tried to record 100 pages a day, and that's what he would read the night before to get the voices for characters. That's the easy/lazy/unimaginative explanation, and I'm clueless as to another one. Anyone else have thoughts on that? From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 01:35:25 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:35:25 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius pronounced like the word > Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name in my head as > Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name I guess I would > subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly I always read > prefects as perfects. > > > Joe (knowing that unfortunatly no matter how his name is pronounced, > he is still gone) Hey I do the same thing no big deal as long as you know who your talking about. pronunciation isnt that big of a deal. Garrett From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 4 22:43:38 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:43:38 -0000 Subject: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75357 I definitely see a love triangle in the works for HRH. Ron is crushing on Hermione and has done so since book 2, but she does not feel the same for him as right now she believes she is falling for Viktor. And Harry and Hermione are most certainly in love, but neither realizes it. The danger is if Ron begins to suspect, or thinks he sees a relationship between Harry and Hermione. Love triangles can be incredibly destructive. Both men and women have destroyed each other out of jealousy. I believe this to be a part of Ron destiny. As the weakest and most susceptible of the 3 to outside influences, it could be an interesting development for the trio to deal with and fight to overcome. From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 4 22:51:55 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:51:55 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Imperious Curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75358 I believe Ron is a perfect candidate for the Imperious Curse. I adore him but he is the most simple of the trio. I don't mean this to be an insult either but it's because he has come from the most closeted and cushioned home life. He has a wonderful family that has shielded him from harm and wrapped him in love and protection. He has not been forced to grow up fast like Harry has and has not Hermione's strength of will and intelligence. Ron has yet to grow up into manhood. He is the perfect for the Imperious Curse if anyone can get him away from his family and Hogwarts long enough to administer it. Any thoughts? From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 23:15:55 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:15:55 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon reward for DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75359 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" wrote: > Will someone help me out please? I know you like the canon for > something, but I have been unable to relocate the page on which we > read that there was a 1000 Galleon reward offered for information on > the whereabouts of the DEs who escaped Azkaban. Would someone let me > know the citation, please. > Atropos Gryffin Shirley replies: I can't believe I found it that fast; of course, at the rate that things are getting posted, you may have several other replies by the time this one gets to you. It's on US Ed. p558, on a poster that Harry and Cho see when they're on their way into that "cute" coffeehouse in Hogsmeade. Chapter 25, The Beetle at Bay, in case you're looking at a different edition. From two4menone4you88 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 23:37:30 2003 From: two4menone4you88 at aol.com (yairadubin) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:37:30 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75360 I think it's very possible that a shipk could develop between Harry and Ginny. JKR introduced two boyfriends for Ginny in OOP. I think she did that to impress upon us that Ginny isn't just a little squirt anymore - she's dating already. IMHO I think she's trying to pave the way for Ginny and Harry to date. *Yaira* From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 23:52:11 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 15:52:11 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Protecting the Stone(wasRe:Elixir of Life) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030804154722.00a684f8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 75361 At 07:30 PM 8/2/2003 +0000, you wrote: >Do the supposedly former Death Eaters >sit around and plot the return of Voldemort? Were others in on the >plot to get the stone along with Quirrel? Doubtful. LV was quite upset with them for doing so little after he vanished (see GoF). Lucius Malfoy and the Azkabanians (hmm...maybe I'll use that as the name of my rock group that sings the HP FILKs) were the only ones that seemed to not be in deep trouble for their actions (or lack there of). No...Quirrell was a lone gunman... From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 00:17:53 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:17:53 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana_Sirius_fan" wrote: > ---> > Luna has family to go home to (her father) so I do not think she > stayed at Hogwarts for the summer. Maybe she is a werewolf and the > day the train left fell on a full moon so the staff had to make > special arrangements for her. Or, she may be still looking around > trying to find her stuff and her dad had to come get her???? > In Chapter 38 Luna says that she and her father were going to Sweden during the summer to look for the crumpled-horned snorkack because her father got such a good price selling The Quibbler interview Harry did to The Prophet. So maybe she went to Hogsmeade and she and her dad used the Floo Network or a portkey to Sweden directly? From topfor at aol.com Tue Aug 5 00:40:05 2003 From: topfor at aol.com (smtopliff) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:40:05 -0000 Subject: the prophecy revisited Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75363 This has been preying on my mind and I would appreciate some input.... the prophecy can be interpreted in a couple of different ways: the word "approaches" can be taken literally to mean that someone is physically moving towards Dumbledore and Trelawney--who??? Could it be the same person who overheard part of the prophecy and was thrown out of the Hog's Head? Second, I am interested the word "born" which has a few accepted different meanings and spellings, particularly the meaning "to be brought to". Was someone brought to the Potters-- maybe it was Snape who was brought to the Potters (by his lover-was it Dorcas--for shame my book is not near me-the one Voldy killed personally). If interpreted that way, then the person who approached Dumbledore and Trelawny that night holds the power to destroy Voldemort, and would later be presented at the end of July to two people who had thrice denied Voldemort, meaning it was another adult (again, Snape?) and not an infant who was born. P.S. marking him as equal may be a reference to the Dark Mark.... Am I way off base (be careful, I frequently am) What do you think? SMT From cdavies at udel.edu Tue Aug 5 00:40:25 2003 From: cdavies at udel.edu (Cathy Davies) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:40:25 -0000 Subject: OotP: Hogwarts under Umbridge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75364 For my first post, whatever else I might think of OotP, Hogwarts under siege is described brilliantly by JKR. So real and funny. She describes both the worst - where the teachers have to chat in the corridors as the staffroom is no longer safe. And the best, which is the school rebelling from Umbridge's dictatorship after Gred and Forge depart. How many of us have wished that the same would happen where we work after a bad day? Hmm, when can I get some Weaseley Fireworks and a Niffler for "that" colleague's office? What teacher can't relate? Hogwarts is strong - a sign of DD's leadership - since despite trying to turn it on itself, by appointing Slytherins above others, Umbridge ends up uniting 3 of 4 houses. I am interested to see if Slytherin is bought into the fold some how or perhaps it does have to leave Hogwarts in the end. Cat From uranussid at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 00:48:06 2003 From: uranussid at yahoo.com (uranussid) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:48:06 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: <200308050203.33719.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75365 He wants to be safe than sorry, that's why! We have seen from GoF that he doesn't mind waiting and waiting to get something he wants, so why should he go into the Ministry when someone else can do it for him? Why should he take the risk of getting exposed himself? He could disguise himself but he still runs a risk of being caught. He could possess someone but he still runs a risk of being caught. Basically, as long as he is in the Ministry in any form, he runs a risk of being caught. He could go at night, but there may be a nighter walking around that could spot him. But if that happens, he could kill him but you never know if that nighter might find a way to escape. His Death Eaters could break the prophesy and hear it themselves but when they repeat it to their master they may run a chance of mishearing it or forgetting it. Also, there may be magic charms on the prophesy preventing anyone forcing it from the shelves with magic. So, that's out of the question. So, what can this poor Evil Lord do? Well, that's easy! Send Harry over there to get the prophecy and let his Death Eaters snatch it from him! But you see, like always, poor old Voldie underestimates Harry and his Death Eaters abilities and he never got the prophecy because Harry smashed it. He was expecting his Death Eaters to be able to handle a 15 year old but it seems he forgot that he couldn't even handle this 15 year old. And so he got angry, and forgot all about not exposing himself and ran to the Ministry to get rid of this 15 year old. It seems whenever Harry is involved he forgets all about logic. And that is why he didn't get the prophesy himself. There were other ways of retrieving it and he didn't need to risk himself getting exposed. Sid From aishaa30 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 01:12:04 2003 From: aishaa30 at yahoo.com (aishaa30) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:12:04 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: > So my question is, why couldn't LV just have Apparated in > front of the orb, taken it off the shelf, and then Disapparated? The whole thing could have been explained *if* Voldy was scared to touch the prophecy. He already saw what happened to Podmore when he was "imperioed" into taking the orb. If Voldy wasn't sure what protections were put in place to keep the prophecy safe, he wouldn't want to touch it. I wonder why JKR did not choose to explain it so instead of the strange plot which cause me some disappointment.. :( *still loves Ootp* -aisha From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 01:48:23 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 18:48:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's 16th birthday In-Reply-To: <20030805012058.45271.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030805012058.45271.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6106968638.20030804184823@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75367 Hi, Monday, August 04, 2003, 6:20:58 PM, Scott wrote: > I was thinking that too! When Sirius gave the bike to Hagrid he said > he wouldn't be needing it anymore, and I doubt Hagrid got rid of it. I > expect it's another gift he'll have coming in bk6. Climb on, Cho, > let's go! I doubt, it, unless it's a really small type of motorcycle. You have to be 18 to get your licence for large bikes and cars in Europe. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Aug 5 01:52:37 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:52:37 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's 16th birthday References: <6106968638.20030804184823@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3F2F0DE5.000001.70045@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 75368 Susanne You have to be 18 to get your licence for large bikes and cars in Europe. Me - I'll admit it's been several years since I cared, but isn't it 17 in the UK? K From jdq53562 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 01:55:18 2003 From: jdq53562 at aol.com (Arya) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:55:18 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I believe Ron is a perfect candidate for the Imperious Curse. > > I adore him but he is the most simple of the trio. I don't mean this > to be an insult either but it's because he has come from the most > closeted and cushioned home life. He has a wonderful family that has > shielded him from harm and wrapped him in love and protection. He > has not been forced to grow up fast like Harry has and has not > Hermione's strength of will and intelligence. Ron has yet to grow up > into manhood. He is the perfect for the Imperious Curse if anyone can > get him away from his family and Hogwarts long enough to administer > it. > > Any thoughts? I completely agree. I felt this was a likely future plot line after we hear in GoF about Ron 'stil skipping every few steps' after a DADA class where he was told to skip around the room under Crouch/Moody's imperius. To me, that says he has very little natural ability to fight the curse or mind control in general. I 'm betting galleons that Ron will be used under imperius sometime before the end of the series. Arya From tania_schr at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 01:56:42 2003 From: tania_schr at hotmail.com (tania_schr) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 01:56:42 -0000 Subject: Prophecy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lewa8978" wrote: > OK, I may be way off here, but I have to ask a question: > > Harry's vision that took him to the MoM was of V trying to get Siruis > to take down the prophecy, and Siruis refusing. > > When Harry asks Malfoy Sr. what the prophecy is, he seems surprised > that Harry doesn't know. I think he even says that that explains why > he (Harry) hadn't been to the ministry sooner. > > So.... if V didn't know Harry didn't know what the prophecy was, then > V didn't know that Harry didn't know that only the people in the > prophecy could take it down. Then V didn't know that Harry wouldn't > know that an attempt to fake it would work. > > Confusing??? V wouldn't think to use Siruis as a decoy of he thought > that Harry would know that Sirius wasn't in the prophecy and > therefore couldn't take it down. But he did use Siruis, without > knowing that Harry was ignorant of this stipulation. > > Therefore.....V must have thought that Harry would believe Siruis > could take down the prophecy. > > See if that sinks in..... I don't think that it mattered to Voldemort whether or not Harry would believe Sirius could take down the prophecy. Even if Harry had somehow known and thought, "Voldemort knows that only he or I can take the prophecy. What is he doing there forcing Sirius to take it?" He still would have had the vision of Sirius being tortured, he still would have tried to contact him, he still would have failed and he still would have raced off to the MoM because he believed what he saw in his vision and whatever the reason, he didn't want Voldemort to hurt/kill Sirius. Voldemort was banking on Harry trying to rescue Sirius so he could lure him to the prophecy at a moment that it was possible him and his DEs to ambush him. Tania From tania_schr at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 02:04:43 2003 From: tania_schr at hotmail.com (tania_schr) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:04:43 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" > wrote: > > Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius pronounced like the word > > Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name in my head as > > Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name I guess I would > > subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly I always read > > prefects as perfects. > > > > > > Joe (knowing that unfortunatly no matter how his name is > pronounced, > > he is still gone) > > Hey I do the same thing no big deal as long as you know who your > talking about. pronunciation isnt that big of a deal. > > Garrett I think you are pronouncing it right if you are reading in English. That is how everyone I know (including myself) pronounces it. I have several friends reading the books in Spanish, and like all words in Spanish, every vowel is pronounced so it sounds a little more like "serious". Tania From salsal19 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 02:04:52 2003 From: salsal19 at yahoo.com (Sally Unchester) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:04:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The prophecy - my 'we are the world' theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805020452.26987.qmail@web80501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75372 ok QoE, You just put an idea in my head. Remember as children when all of us were taught there were selfish people and selfless people? The selfish people seemed to not get anywhere in the world but the selfless always got anywhere they wanted to in the world. So here's my theory: JKR purpsoefully gives us characters such as Harry,Ron,Hermione,Dumbledore,Hagrid et al. who are all selfless and fight their battles the "pure way". They don't like to fight with swords,fists,or anything but they do when something stands in there way. The selfish people want to fight with fists and swords because nothing is in their way and it only matters what they want not what others feel or want. It's good that you notice that Harry's power that Voldemort doesn't have is bringing people together. As for Harry and Snape, I believe Snape will be the one saving him in the end since we will have no Dumbledore (or at least that is what many people believes,who knows maybe JKR will throw us off and keep DD alive?) The last few years at Hogwarts are the teenage years for the trio so there are going to flying hormones here and there...I believe you are right with the battle within himself, he will have to decide if he would like to be selfish like Voldemort and the DEs or if he wants to stay selfless. I believe personally that Neville's true heroism is going to show throughout the last three books (yes,I said three,didn't anyone notice how he became even MORE brave in book five?) Mrs.Dursley will acknowledge her sister but it'll be a "You blink and you miss it" deal. She actually already does acknowledge her in other books just not say that she loves her or anything like that, I would like her to say that she did love her sister at one point,that would be more special to me. Any way,thats my rant for the moment. Feel free to disagree or agree if you chose,it's a free country ;). -Sally queenofeverythang wrote: The prophecy: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not...and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." After agonizing over the 'either' line and the whole Harry/Neville thing for a long time, I started to pay a little more attention to the "he will have power the Dark Lord knows not" line. My thought is the power Harry has that Voldy knows not is his ability to bring people together. Voldy is a powerful dark wizard and he has loyal subjects in his DEs, but Voldy is a selfish *beep* and so are his followers. They only come together in an attempt to take power for themselves. They are very nazi-esque and have built a sense of entitlement around putting down/contolling everyone else. DEs are loyal only to themselves and Voldy, being the biggest bully in the playground, is just a means to an end. I believe this selfishness may be their downfall - this is where harry may come in. Harry lives because of selflessness. His mother sacrificed her life to save him and now her love protects him. I suggest that this love is not just around him but inside of him as well. Harry obviously has his father's rebellious nature but he also has his mother in him as well (he looks like his father but has his mother's eyes). His mother stood up for Snape (who called her mudblood) because james' treatment of him was wrong. This is only a small glimpse of lily's character and her compassion for others, but i think it says a lot about her. Two of harry's biggest mentors also have this quality. Dumbledore is a kind of magic-ambassador and Hagrid has this ability with monsters/magical creatures. Both of their influences on Harry may be exactly what harry needs. Harry has also never won a battle without help/support from people who cared for him - directly or indirectly. The themes of loyalty and trust also seem to come up in all of the books. V was only able to get to the Potter's because of disloyalty. Hermione and Ron's trust and loyalty when it comes to Harry has been invaluable to him. I also thought about the fountain in the MoM. Harry realized it was a false rerpresentation of the magic world - I think Harry has the ability to make that image a reality through his alliances (Dumbledore, Dobby, Firenze, Hagrid,Fleur?, (dare i say the Dursley's?)...) and his friendships (D's army, especially the 5 who risked their lives to help him at the end of OotP). I don't think either Harry or Voldy will see this 'power' as a strength. Voldy doesn't put a value on any life other than his own and Harry, with his newly developed hero-complex, is convinced he must face Voldy alone - this i believe may be a huge mistake and lead him right into Voldy's hands.I believe the real final battle perhaps won't be a huge violent bloodbath but instead a battle within harry. I see harry becoming more of a loner in book 6 and that puts him in real danger. Speaking of hands, i think the line "and either must die at the hand of the other..." may not mean that one has to kill the other directly. I think that Harry's action may be what defeats the Dark Lord - bringing everyone together to defeat him is the action I'm thinking of. I doubt those that love and support him will let him face Voldy alone. All will come to save Harry and thus save themselves. If their is any truth to this theory, I'd love to see Harry bring the true hero out of neville, see Mrs. Dursley finally acknowledge her sister, and see what will finally make Snape and Harry see eye-to-eye. I don't have any specifics or details to support or enhance this theory - I am only now rereading the books for the 1st time and some of the details are still a little hazy - I appologize for this (and the length of this post). I just wanted to put the idea out there and see what other people thought. The whole idea is not original and it is very 'we are the world' cheesy, but I have to admit I love that song. Bring on the cheese! -QoE Yahoo! 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SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdq53562 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 02:08:20 2003 From: jdq53562 at aol.com (Arya) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:08:20 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon reward for DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" > wrote: > > Will someone help me out please? I know you like the canon for > > something, but I have been unable to relocate the page on which we > > read that there was a 1000 Galleon reward offered for information > on > > the whereabouts of the DEs who escaped Azkaban. Would someone let > me > > know the citation, please. > > > Atropos Gryffin > > Shirley replies: > I can't believe I found it that fast; of course, at the rate that > things are getting posted, you may have several other replies by the > time this one gets to you. > It's on US Ed. p558, on a poster that Harry and Cho see when they're > on their way into that "cute" coffeehouse in Hogsmeade. Chapter 25, > The Beetle at Bay, in case you're looking at a different edition. Hmmm, I forgot abou this..... So, there were 12 Death Eaters captured at the Ministry that night... Here is my conjecture on this: Fudge and others all saw Harry there, so Harry may get some credit. (Not to mention they might want to suck up to him after trying to make his life hell.) Dum,bledore obvioulsy was seen there. Of the Order members present (Lupin, Moody, Tonks and Kingsley) (Yes, I know I forgot Sirius, but he is gone throught ht eveil and nobody can proove he was there and they would peobably accuse him of being a DE if they knew he was, so I skip him). Anyway, of the Order members there, probably Lupin brough the students back to the castle--maybe even before the other ministry officials could see them all. M, T, & K, along with Dumbledore and maybe harry will have the credit for getting the DE. T&K will definatley because they will be able to advance in their job standings because of this and Moody because he wasn't abou tto run--infact he probably escorted those DE all the way to where ever they were holed up. We never hear (last chapter where they are reading the paper) that there is general or Ministry knowledge of the students who were there. Therefore, if there is to be rewards money paid out, were talking: Moody (maybe), Lupin (less likley maybe-- I think he would have rushed out because werewolves already have a bad rep), Tonks (very likely), Kingsley (very likely), Dumbledore (likely, but would go to Order probably or maybe he would regift it to the students who helped), and Harry (likely because the ministry needs to kiss his ass for all they did and he may do some regifting as well, if he gets anything). Hmm, so, it seems this may be something that may drive a wedge between Harry and say, someone who is sensitive about money....hmmm...Ron, perhaps? Arya From psnow at nipha.com Tue Aug 5 02:13:03 2003 From: psnow at nipha.com (mrnipha) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:13:03 -0000 Subject: Azkaban effects In-Reply-To: <20030804143134.56811.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rania Melhem wrote: > > > I was thinking about this last night . In PoA we are told that > prolongued stays in Azkaban does rob wizards of their powers. > Wormtail accuses Sirius of having learned methods to avoid the loss > of wizarding powers from Voldy. However we now know that none of > the 10 death eaters at who spent at least 13 years in Azkaban > (possibly longer) lost their powers or at least recovered them as > soon as they got out of Azkaban. > Rania Whatever other protections may or may not be in the Dept of Mysteries, the entrance hall at the Ministry is used for apparators to come and go. However, when Harry reaches the entrance hall in pursuit of Bellatrix, she is heading for the visitors elevator/phone box to escape the Ministry building. Why not just apparate before Harry even gets off to the 8th floor in the elevator? Maybe she can't, or isn't confident in her ability to do so under stress as an after-effect of her stay in Azkaban. We know apparating is difficult wandless magic that many wizards do not bother with. It might be one of the powers that a prisoner of Azkaban might lose, at least for a while. When is the first time (if ever) that we hear of Sirius apparating after his stay in Azkaban? Just my thoughts MrNipha From nikegirl0000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 18:43:04 2003 From: nikegirl0000 at yahoo.com (Lorena) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:43:04 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75375 Harry has always liked Cho, right? Since her mention in the 3rd. book, but in the last book things haven't been what he was expected to, they go out and he gets his first kiss, but things will always be a mess because she just end up crying about Cedric. I just wanted to say I'm so happy of what the book says when they're back in the Howgarts express, when Harry finds out, that Cho, was now dating ex-Ginny boyfriend, and it says it doesn't hurt him, so that's supposed to mean that he's not interested in her anymore?? I hope so, hahaha, because I think Ginny or Hermione will be better for him. From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 02:13:41 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:13:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's 16th birthday In-Reply-To: <3F2F0DE5.000001.70045@monica> References: <6106968638.20030804184823@earthlink.net> <3F2F0DE5.000001.70045@monica> Message-ID: <80108486469.20030804191341@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75376 Hi, Monday, August 04, 2003, 6:52:37 PM, Kathryn wrote: > I'll admit it's been several years since I cared, but isn't it 17 in > the UK? Possibly... I'm from Germany and thought it was 18 in the UK, too. I might be wrong, though. He still wouldn't be able to receive the bike for his 16th birthday, but maybe in book 7, then... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 4 23:06:06 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:06:06 -0000 Subject: Lily's magical abilities? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75377 I agree. Lilly has to have been a very powerful witch. Harry gets all his immense power from a combination of both parents. And we know Harry to be one of the most powerfull wizards born in a long time. Dumbledore has said so himself somewhere in the series. Also Rowling is very specific in telling us (repeatedly) that Harry looks like his dad but has his mother's eyes. I take from that to mean on the surface he is like his dad but inside, his heart, his sole and his magical ability are more like his mum. From Oboek8 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 00:14:59 2003 From: Oboek8 at aol.com (Oboek8 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:14:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's best interview and JKR's favorite character Message-ID: <140.16b1dbeb.2c605103@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75378 > Maybe JKR intends to reveal that Snape was, in fact, in love with Lily? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 00:19:40 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:19:40 -0000 Subject: JKR's best interview In-Reply-To: <009001c35ac6$0a6288c0$3f9ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: Well, technically we never had the shape of Lily's eyes described to us before. In fact, I found "almond shaped" to be an unusual way to describe eyes. The only other reference to "almond shaped eyes" that I can find was in GoF, the Sphinx in the maze has almond shaped eyes. Pulling from that information and the information that JKR gave in another interview when asked (regarding Harry having Lily's eyes) if some people could do magic with their eyes. In that interview her response was a bit, er, suspicious. :) She kept asking why they were asking, and finally said that they were very clever. That there would be more coming on that. I don't know much about the sphinx, though, other than that it guards treasure, but it was the only connection in HP I could find to the almond shaped eyes. Anyone know more? Ariadne: That's a really good point--perhaps there's something like a metamorphagus or animagus that has to with a sphinx, some quality you can possess. And I've read in several other posts about Harry being able to do magic with his eyes--a sphinxamorphagus quality?! Of course, the shape could just be another red herring and it's the eye color, again, that is important. From jdq53562 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 02:46:20 2003 From: jdq53562 at aol.com (Arya) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:46:20 -0000 Subject: Coming of Age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75380 Seeing the posts about the age to drive or own a bike, I was wondering and wonder if an actual UK'er can give an answer (not a guess from one of us living elsewhere)-- what are the milestone ages in the UK? Like when can you get a driving license? What is the age of consent (sexual)? What is the age of voting, drinking, etc..all that crap. I see all different things in fan fics and conjecture but I think it's just biased to suit ones needs (most especially in Fandom) so I was wondering if someone can give a solid answer. If you are still unclear what I mean, here is an example for the US (every state may be a little different, my answers are for Wisconsin-- where I am): 15 and a half: eligible for learner's permit to learn to drive 16: eligible for a driver's license 18: eligible to vote, engage in "consensual sex", enter into a legal contract (marriage, buy home, etc), join military, gambling (someplaces), pay taxes, buy cigarettes, and maybe some others things- this si the general "Comming of Age" mark in the US. 21: Drink (in most places in the US, some still are only 18), Gambling (if the age isn't 18, then its 21, depending on the location) 25: age at which insurance companies finally think you are an adult and so they lower your rates and you can now--finally--rent a car. (Personally, this one has always really pissed me off, well, it did anyway, when I was under 25) Any UK answers?? Arya From jlh_hp at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 03:00:16 2003 From: jlh_hp at yahoo.com (janna) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:00:16 -0000 Subject: the prophecy revisited In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "smtopliff" wrote: > This has been preying on my mind and I would appreciate some input.... the prophecy can be interpreted in a couple of different ways: the word "approaches" can be taken literally to mean that someone is physically moving towards Dumbledore and Trelawney-- who??? ... snip ... P.S. marking him as equal may be a reference to the Dark Mark.... Am I way off base (be > careful, I frequently am) What do you think? > SMT ~janna~ Yes, I have been thinking that the one who approaches could mean something else as well, but like you I am not sure what else. Yet. JKR will let us know, someday. Regarding the mark, though, that is an interesting comments. I don't think that the Dark Mark tattoo (or whatever it is) is really marking as an 'equal' but it does show that there are other ways to mark someone. Interesting ... time will tell. ~janna~ From jsmgleaner at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 03:02:58 2003 From: jsmgleaner at yahoo.com (jsmgleaner) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:02:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Back to Diagon Alley Message-ID: <20030805030258.61708.qmail@web14809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75382 Hi all, I've been thinking about the post I sent out about whether Ollivander knew Tom Riddle was Voldemort (as might be concluded from assuming that Riddle bought the wand he uses as as eleven year-old on his way to Hogwarts and not as the older Riddle-turned-Voldemort, and that Ollivander, unlike most others, knew that they were one and the same even before the events of CoS). I didn't hear from anyone on the list about this issue (small tear trickles down cheek), but that just gave me time to run with some theories about the next book(s). First, I highly doubt that JKR will drop such plumb characters as Fred and George -- especially after their spectacular scenes in OOP. Therefore, the next book could very well get behind life on Diagon Alley, exploring its connections to the Death Eaters and the Order through HRH's contact with Fred and George, who will be sort of junior members in the Order. Second, I think that Ollivander's character will have a more prominant role, and I believe he is an Order member with his ear to the ground of Diagon Alley (see knowledge of Tom Riddle above). He would also know a lot about wizards and their capacities based on selling wands. Perhaps this plot line will begin when Neville goes to buy his new wand. Or, and I don't mind contradicting myself, he knew Tom Riddle was Voldemort because he is a covert Death Eater himself. Maybe that's why he displays the founding date of his shop so prominently (I grimace at the leap in my logic as I write that last question, but there you have it)? Finally, I think that this means the narrative will return to Knockturn Alley (perhaps in the climax? If Harry decides he must know more about/load up on equipment for the Dark Arts to fight Voldemort?), as JKR has hinted (see thread on CoS movie/editing) something in the Knockturn Alley scene is important to the narrative as a whole. Any theories? thoughts? -- jsmgleaner (who is tempted to SHIP Ollivander with Madam Malkin to get some response from her post, but can't bring herself to go that far) ===== "Few of us are not in some way infirm, or even diseased; and our very infirmities help us unexpectedly."-- William James __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 03:06:42 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:06:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges References: <20030804205814.17146.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F2F1F42.7060006@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75383 Rebecca Stephens wrote: > --- C M wrote: >> >>Me: So we have him, 1) Calling the first years >>"midgets," 2) Failing >>to lay a smackdown on his older, unruly brothers who >>we all know damn >>well would've laughed in his face, 3) Considering >>buying Firewhisky >>at the Hog's Head and 4) Attempting, along with >>Harry, to buy brain- >>boosting products to help with exams. >> > > I can only judge by what I see. I see several > incidents of him not living up to his responsibility > (incidentally, I wouldn't have counted considering > ordering firewhiskey among them, though I can't say > why) and I see *one* incidence of him fulfilling his > responsibility without prompting (meeting on the > train). If I stick my hand into an opaque jar and > pull out three or four green marbles and one purple > marble, I will not assume the jar is mostly purple > marbles - though it's possible that it is. I have to > go by what is in the book. If we are going to stick strictly to the book, there is no solid evidence that I can recall that any of the above violates any rules. 'Midget', might, for all we know, be the accepted term for first-years, analogous to 'plebe' at Annapolis. Just because Hermione doesn't like it doesn't mean it violates a rule. Again, we have never been shown a rule that Fred and George were violating. Ditto with the brain-boosting products. Regarding Fred and George, Percy couldn't tame them, either, so he must have been a poor prefect, too. Furthermore, in the last two items, Ron was merely tempted. Since when does resisting a temptation disqualify one from any office? Anybody, even the weakest person, can stick to the straight and narrow when not tempted to stray; but to do the right thing when one is actually tempted to do otherwise takes real strength. Compare Twain's "Man that Corrupted Hadleyburg." From profwildflower at mindspring.com Tue Aug 5 03:07:29 2003 From: profwildflower at mindspring.com (whimsyflower) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:07:29 -0000 Subject: re; Sirius's name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75384 I believe it is pronounced like "serious" in English. I think his name might be connected to the brightest star in our heavens, Sirius, also know as the Dog Star. Whimsy From jsmgleaner at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 03:18:42 2003 From: jsmgleaner at yahoo.com (jsmgleaner) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:18:42 -0000 Subject: Dark Mark (was: the prophecy revisited) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75385 "smtopliff" > P.S. marking him as equal may be a reference to the Dark Mark.... > Am I way off base (be > > careful, I frequently am) What do you think? > > SMT > ~janna~ > snip< I don't think that the Dark Mark tattoo > (or whatever it is) is really marking as an 'equal' but it does show > that there are other ways to mark someone. me: In fact, the Dark Mark is a mark of obedience and inferiority to *Lord* Voldemort, the Dark *Lord*. Pettigrew often refers to V. as "master," which ironically suggests the same language the house elves use. Is anyone else creeped out by the servility of the Death Eaters' language? I think this type of slavish behavior may be one of the contributors to Voldemort's fall, especially when the DE's realize they've been kissing the hem of a "half-blood's" cloak. --jsmgleaner From laxer26 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 03:22:23 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 20:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? Message-ID: <20030805032223.65402.qmail@web13706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75386 Pshemekan WW seems to have presidential system without general elections. Minister of Magic have enourmous powers, just like US president. Laxer: Hate to break it to you kid, but the Wizarding world model is not the US. The US president does not have that much actual power to do things. He must be authorized to make policy by the Congress and the Senate. On the other hand, in the WW, Fudge is able to do pretty much anything he wants. Im not completely sure, but there is no evidence that he has to get anyone's ok before his educational decrees. laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From linlou43 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 03:23:16 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (linlou43) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:23:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Voldemort, and Firenze pronunciations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75387 Hi all. Just back from two weeks vacation and I am not even going to attempt to catch up on all the posts but I made it through the last couple hundred and I thought I would put in my two cents before I called it a night. According to the pronunciation guide on scholastic's website the pronunciations for the characters in questions are as follows: Sirius is pronounced the same as serious, the same as the star. Firenze is Feer-EN-zee. The guide does not give Voldemort. It just uses "he-who-must-not-be-named". I actually just listened to books one and two while on vacation these last two weeks for the first time. (Jim Dale) Previously, I had only read them. It struck me as stange to not hear the T pronounced in Voldemort because if I didn't already know it was there there would be a letter missing for Tom Marvolo Riddle at the end of COS. For those of you who heard the books before you read them, was this an issue for you? Just wondering. -linlou, who really must go to bed now From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 03:34:42 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:34:42 -0000 Subject: Out of term activity at Hogwarts/Fawcett=Hufflepuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75388 > > Isn't Fawcett the Hufflepuff girl that Snape catches behind one of the rose bushes in GOF? I'm sure she is, and her boyfriend is a > Ravenclaw called Stebbins. > > -Cindy > > Now me: (Tcy): > > Fawcett does seem to be the one who was caught in the bushes with > Stebbins. He is in Hufflepuff, but on page 260 of the American > Hardcover Edition , we have Dumbledore saying: "I suggest you both go up to Madam Pomfrey. She is already tending to Miss Fawcett, of Ravenclaw, and Mr. Summers, of Huflepuff, both of whom decided to age themselves up a little too." > > Hope that clears that part of the mystery up. > > Tcy There is also a Fawcett family who lives near the Weasleys, Diggorys, and Lovegoods (GoF, portkey to the World Cup scene) Ravenclaw Bookworm From steve at hp-lexicon.org Tue Aug 5 03:47:00 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:47:00 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Voldemort, and Firenze pronunciations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75389 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linlou43" wrote: > star. Firenze is Feer-EN-zee. The guide does not give Voldemort. It > just uses "he-who-must-not-be-named". You have to keep clicking on it. Eventually it says VOL-duh-more. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From ninnamie at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 03:48:28 2003 From: ninnamie at yahoo.com (ninnamie) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:48:28 -0000 Subject: Tom's parents (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tim" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, lissbell at c... wrote: > > (very very VERY snipped :)) > > > I still believe Harry and Ginny are Tom's parents. (foolish & > > stubborn grin) > > > > So Ginny is a descendant of Salazar Slytherin? Tom Riddle said he > was > > related to > > him (SS) on his mother's side... Yep, that's all I had to say, and > it > > seems that even you > > would be surprised by that small amount of objections. :) > > > Better yet... Tom Riddle was taking possession of his own mother, and > had he succeeded would have killed her. Harry/Ginny can't be Tom's parents! LV has repeatedly tried to kill them both, but he must be smart enough to realize that if he kills them as children, he'll un-make himself and undo his entire existence. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 04:02:51 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:02:51 -0000 Subject: Wands (Was Re: OWLs and future Aurors-Neville) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "flying_meese" wrote: > I wonder if the whole "wand chooses the wizard" thing has more to do > with getting your full potential rather than rudimentry skills. Did anyone else think it was odd that Draco's mother bought his wand? While Draco was getting his robes measured with Harry, he said his mother was getting his wand, and his father was getting his books or something. Ravenclaw Bookworm From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 04:15:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:15:04 -0000 Subject: Map of Hogwarts -Bath Tub or Shower? In-Reply-To: <3F2F570D.9736.361D048@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" wrote: > >>>> Straw poll! Who thinks they'd have privacy partitions in the bathrooms (NOT THE TOILETS - BRITISH ENGLISH HERE, PEOPLE - besides we have hard data on the toilets) at Hogwarts? Help me make the decision for my maps. <<< > > Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought > Shaun Hately bboy_mn: Let me see if I understand the question. You are asking, are there privacy partitions in the bathing area, not are there privacy partitions in the 'bodily functions' area? I think it's clear that, at least for the 'sit down' bodily functions areas, there are privacy stalls. Although, I confess to having been places that didn't have that luxury. So that questions seems resolved. Now the actual bathing areas. I can't remember ever being in an European school, but I have been in public health clubs and baths in Germany, and they usually have open showers. They seem to be very big on privacy, the 'bodily functions' stalls go from floor to ceiling and don't let so much as a crack of light throught the seams. At the same time, Germans don't seem to be as hung up about nudity as Americans are, so showers we usually open 'gang' showers. Another reason, schools typically have open multi-user showers is for expediency, to get people in and out as fast as possible, and to make cleaning and maintenace as fast and easy as possible. So every public bath I've ever been in has open showers; that includes YMCA, college dorms, college athletic facilities, high school locker room, swimming pools, and health clubs. I do remember one (out of 10) Bally Swim and Fitness Clubs, one of the smaller ones, that had curtains between the showers, but it became too much of a bother, so eventually they were taken down. Now to the question of showers or bathtubs. In my very limited experience in Europe, I've seen many bathtubs that have a hand held shower sprayers, and have observed people standing or kneeling in the tub using the sprayer to wet themselves down, lather, then rinse themselves off; very water efficient. One thing I don't think many people are aware of, is that, to a limited extent, water is rationed in Europe, or at least in Germany when I was there. Generally, the ration is genereous, sufficient for your daily needs, but there is a great incentive to conserve water, and every effort is made in every area; showers, baths, washing machines, toilets are all very water efficient. If you go beyond the basic ration, excess water is billed at an extremely high rate. In the area of Germany I was in, somewhat near Luxembourg, it was very common to see people pull their cars into a small stream and wash them there rather than use their water ration. So my point is, based on admittedly limited experience, I'm going with open showers, and perhaps, in some cases, tubs with handheld showers. Just a guess. bboy_mn From lissbell at colfax.com Tue Aug 5 04:18:30 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (lissbell at colfax.com) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:18:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom's parents (was: JKR's best interview) References: Message-ID: <3F2F3016.2070908@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75393 Hi evangelina, Lissa wrote: >>I still believe Harry and Ginny are Tom's parents. (foolish & >> stubborn grin) evangelina839 wrote: > So Ginny is a descendant of Salazar Slytherin? Tom Riddle said he was > related to > him (SS) on his mother's side... Yep, that's all I had to say, and it > seems that even you > would be surprised by that small amount of objections. :) Lissa replied: I don't have any objection to the Weasleys being descended from Slytherin, but I don't have any reason to believe they are. (And someone has been doing a good job of persuading me that they're descended from Godric Gryffindor.) I assume Harry is the one from whom TMR received his Slytherin blood. Why? Because the whole purpose of CoS, at least as it appears to me, is to suggest there is some blood connection between Harry and Slytherin and between Harry and Tom M Riddle. These links seem to be negated by Dumbledore's words at the end of the novel, but if you read them very carefully, he goes out of his way to *suggest* that Harry is not related to either of them, but he never states it. Since Tom Marvolo Riddle believes he is a descendant of Slytherin (and his ability to speak parseltongue backs this up) it was logical for him to assume his mother was the one from whom he received his Slytherin genes. He does, after all, believe Tom Riddle Sr--a muggle for whom TMR has *enormous* contempt--is his biological father. In my opinion, Tom is mistaken. Like many arrogant villains in popular fiction, Voldemort makes assumptions that turn out to be wrong and cost him dearly. But yes, I do know how absurd this all sounds. Hope your headache gets better. And I hope my ridiculous theorizing didn't contribute to it. While I'm sincere in my statements, I mean this all in fun. Do take care. :) Best Wishes, Lissa From scooting2win at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 04:21:22 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:21:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's 16th birthday In-Reply-To: <6106968638.20030804184823@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Monday, August 04, 2003, 6:20:58 PM, Scott wrote: > > > I was thinking that too! When Sirius gave the bike to Hagrid he said > > he wouldn't be needing it anymore, and I doubt Hagrid got rid of it. I > > expect it's another gift he'll have coming in bk6. Climb on, Cho, > > let's go! > > I doubt, it, unless it's a really small type of motorcycle. > > You have to be 18 to get your licence for large bikes and > cars in Europe. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne license? who needs a license in the wizard world? a motorbike would make it really nice on harry, especially one that can fly! Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 04:29:07 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:29:07 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon reward for DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" > > wrote: > > > Will someone help me out please? I know you like the canon for > > > something, but I have been unable to relocate the page on which we > > > read that there was a 1000 Galleon reward offered for information > > on > > > the whereabouts of the DEs who escaped Azkaban. Would someone let > > me > > > know the citation, please. > > > > > Atropos Gryffin > > > > Shirley replies: > > I can't believe I found it that fast; of course, at the rate that > > things are getting posted, you may have several other replies by the > > time this one gets to you. > > It's on US Ed. p558, on a poster that Harry and Cho see when they're > > on their way into that "cute" coffeehouse in Hogsmeade. Chapter 25, > > The Beetle at Bay, in case you're looking at a different edition. > > > Hmmm, I forgot abou this..... > So, there were 12 Death Eaters captured at the Ministry that night... > Here is my conjecture on this: Fudge and others all saw Harry there, so > Harry may get some credit. (Not to mention they might want to suck up to > him after trying to make his life hell.) Dum,bledore obvioulsy was seen there. > Of the Order members present (Lupin, Moody, Tonks and Kingsley) (Yes, I > know I forgot Sirius, but he is gone throught ht eveil and nobody can proove > he was there and they would peobably accuse him of being a DE if they knew > he was, so I skip him). Anyway, of the Order members there, probably Lupin > brough the students back to the castle--maybe even before the other ministry > officials could see them all. M, T, & K, along with Dumbledore and maybe > harry will have the credit for getting the DE. T&K will definatley because they > will be able to advance in their job standings because of this and Moody > because he wasn't abou tto run--infact he probably escorted those DE all the > way to where ever they were holed up. > We never hear (last chapter where they are reading the paper) that there is > general or Ministry knowledge of the students who were there. Therefore, if > there is to be rewards money paid out, were talking: Moody (maybe), Lupin > (less likley maybe-- I think he would have rushed out because werewolves > already have a bad rep), Tonks (very likely), Kingsley (very likely), > Dumbledore (likely, but would go to Order probably or maybe he would regift > it to the students who helped), and Harry (likely because the ministry needs > to kiss his ass for all they did and he may do some regifting as well, if he gets > anything). > Hmm, so, it seems this may be something that may drive a wedge between > Harry and say, someone who is sensitive about money....hmmm...Ron, > perhaps? > > Arya And why won't Ron, Luna, Neville, Hermoine, and Ginny get any? And it's only the ones that escaped from Azkaban, plus what was the amount on Sirius head? and where would that money go? The Death Eaters will all say that Sirius was there with the MoM employees maybe even to the point of losing someone a job, Kingsley? But maybe just maybe, they divide the money making Ron a little less unhappy then he is already being poor. but in my opinion, ron is not really that unhappy, he's just a little green eyed, and he'll get over that because he doesn't want to be Percy, Percy never had a problem telling fred and george off, but ron has something people have yet to see. Lori From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Aug 5 03:41:59 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:41:59 -0400 Subject: FILK: Will You Cut Me Tomorrow? Message-ID: <000f01c35b03$8706b8a0$9ddc5644@arlngt01.va.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75396 Will You Cut Me Tomorrow? to the tune of Will You Love Me Tomorrow, written by Gerry Coffin and Carole King Dedicated to Gail B. Scene: Harry in Umbridge's office at midnight, first night of detention Dolores gave me detention Her quill's a sadist's invention Sweet talk can't hide The evil of her lies Will she still cut me tomorrow? Is this a moment's torture Umbridge's secret pleasure A night with Snape Would be a great escape Will she still cut me tomorrow? Tonight the lines have faded I kept my silence through the night But would that toad be sated If my hand gushed out blood till morning's light? I'm missing Keeper tryouts Didn't write my essay on giants I asked her once Now I can't ask again Will she still cut me tomorrow? Debbie whose next project is to learn how to find midis [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 04:51:25 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:51:25 -0000 Subject: Wands (Was Re: OWLs and future Aurors-Neville) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75397 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > Did anyone else think it was odd that Draco's mother bought his > wand? While Draco was getting his robes measured with Harry, he > said his mother was getting his wand, and his father was getting his > books or something. > Ravenclaw Bookworm I think he said that his mother was checking out the wands. He didn't say that she was actually buying his wand. From lissbell at colfax.com Tue Aug 5 04:55:22 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (lissbell at colfax.com) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:55:22 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom's parents (was: JKR's best interview) References: Message-ID: <3F2F38BA.6070506@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75398 Lissa wrote: >>>I still believe Harry and Ginny are Tom's parents. (foolish & >>>stubborn grin) evangelina replied: >>So Ginny is a descendant of Salazar Slytherin? Tom Riddle said he >> was related to >>him (SS) on his mother's side... Yep, that's all I had to say, and >> it seems that even you >>would be surprised by that small amount of objections. :) Tim added: > Better yet... Tom Riddle was taking possession of his own mother, and > had he succeeded would have killed her. Lissa responded: But Tim, don't you see how *perfectly* this parallels Tom Marvolo Riddle's birth? The very first thing little Tom did in life was drain his mother's life away as she gave birth to him. (I'm not trying to be a jerk here. I don't doubt Tom Marvolo loves his mother as much as he is able and that he would never willfully have killed her as an infant.) The CoS scene is actually a remarkably appropriate echo of that first birth. The only difference is that if he'd succeeded in killing Ginny this time, he would also have destroyed himself. If your objection involves the idea that Riddle would never willfully harm his mother--and that it would be suicidal to do so before she can actually conceive him--all I can say is there's no way Tom could know Ginny will be his mother. Tom has questions--why does Harry resemble him, why did trying to kill Harry hurt him--but few facts. If your objection is to the stylistic notion of Voldemort harming his own ancestors, I'd point out that by the time he's a teen, he *deliberately* kills the people he believes are his father and grandparents. Voldemort's life is gruesome a spree of parental and psuedo-parental homicide. It's sad and I feel sorry for the boy. Yeah, I said it. I feel sorry for Tom Marvolo Riddle. I want to see the guy smothered in parental love and redeemed. I've gone entirely mad. Ignore me. (wistful sigh) Cheers, Lissa B From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 04:58:51 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:58:51 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - my 'we are the world' theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: My thought is the power Harry has that Voldy knows not is his ability to bring people together. > Speaking of hands, i think the line "and either must die at the > hand of the other..." may not mean that one has to kill the other > directly. I think that Harry's action may be what defeats the Dark > Lord - bringing everyone together to defeat him is the action I'm > thinking of. I doubt those that love and support him will let him > face Voldy alone. All will come to save Harry and thus save > themselves. > -QoE I think you have a lot of valid points. You have more detail, but there was a thread a few weeks ago that talked about some of this. In Message 70358 I wrote: How's this for a theory: the powers that "the Dark Lord knows not" could involve Harry's leadership and ability to make friends who will willingly fight for/with him (as opposed to out of fear like LV's supporters). IMO that scene on the Hogwarts Express at the end, where a bunch of DA members zap D/C/G before they could attack Harry will appear significant later on. Most of the DA's were names in the background before, but now they are becoming more prominent. The prophesy refers to "the one," but I think there will be more people involved supporting him ? not just in a large fight, but in some way that combines their powers to make them even stronger. As in the sum is more than... Ravenclaw Bookworm From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 05:01:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 05:01:20 -0000 Subject: 1000 Galleon reward for DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" > > wrote: > > > ... I have been unable to relocate the page on which we > > > read that there was a 1000 Galleon reward offered for > > > ... the DEs who escaped Azkaban. ... > > > > > Atropos Gryffin > > > > Shirley replies: > > > > It's on US Ed. p558, on a poster that Harry and Cho see when > > they're on their way into that "cute" coffeehouse in Hogsmeade. > > Chapter 25, The Beetle at Bay, in case you're looking at a > > different edition. > > > Hmmm, I forgot abou this..... > So, there were 12 Death Eaters captured at the Ministry that > night... Fudge and others all saw Harry there, so Harry may get some > credit. ...edited... > > Arya bboy_mn: For a couple more opinions on the rewards, see - http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74870 Brief comment, re: rewards- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/67984 As a side note: there is a G10,000 reward for Sirius. I wonder how that will play out? Perhaps, under the circumstance, people on both side will thinks it's best just to forget about it. For reference: G10,000 is about us$75,000. A tidy sum. Just a thought. bboy_mn From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 05:08:15 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 05:08:15 -0000 Subject: Wands (Was Re: OWLs and future Aurors-Neville) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75401 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > > Did anyone else think it was odd that Draco's mother bought his > > wand? While Draco was getting his robes measured with Harry, he > > said his mother was getting his wand, and his father was getting > his > > books or something. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > > I think he said that his mother was checking out the wands. He didn't > say that she was actually buying his wand. You're right about the wording, but I still suspect she bought it for him. It says "My father's next door buying my books and mother's up the street looking at wands....Then I'm going to drag them off to look at racing brooms." It doesn't sound though, like Draco was going to actually make the effort to go to Ollivanders. Ravenclaw Bookworm From lissbell at colfax.com Tue Aug 5 05:12:00 2003 From: lissbell at colfax.com (lissbell at colfax.com) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:12:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tom's parents (was: JKR's best interview) References: Message-ID: <3F2F3CA0.8050703@colfax.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75402 Hi ninnamie, ninnamie wrote: > Harry/Ginny can't be Tom's parents! LV has repeatedly tried to kill > them both, but he must be smart enough to realize that if he kills > them as children, he'll un-make himself and undo his entire existence. Lissa responded: Voldemort is a smart guy, yes, but there's no way he could know Harry and Ginny are his parents. (I will grant that if he *did* know, he would never try to harm them.) His mother died giving birth to him, so even if she remembered the truth--which I doubt she did--she couldn't have told him. Little Tom was raised to believe Tom Riddle Sr the muggle was his father. How could Tom Marvolo guess that his parents were born decades after he himself was born? Realistically, he couldn't. As you point out, killing his father *should* have undone Voldemort's entire existence. I'm sure he would have died killing Harry--and that Harry probably would have died himself--at the beginning of book one if he hadn't taken extravagant magical precautions to defend himself against death. Nonetheless, Tom was left in a bodiless state few people would refer to as true life. The fact that LV has, as you note, repeatedly tried to kill both Harry and Ginny actually nicely parallels Tom Marvolo Riddle's established pattern of killing his parents--or those he believes to be parents. (Obviously, though, killing his mother as she gave birth to him was not willful.) The whole situation has a gorgeous irony. But I could be awfully wrong, and I do acknowledge that. Take care :) Lissa B From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Aug 4 20:53:50 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:53:50 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75403 > Laura: > (lots of snipping): > The suggestion in the > books is that the MoM is a very secret part of the regular British > government, in which case it would be under the control of the Prime > Minister, right? (Like Tony Blair doesn't have enough on his hands > already-or would it still have been Maggie Thatcher?) CW: Oh please, please don't give Blair an excuse like this ! Its the ultimate distracting spin story to get him off the Iraq hook, and we've nearly got him ! The idea that he got Voldie muddled up with Saddam, oh it could run and run.... From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 05:55:03 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:55:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP: Hogwarts under Umbridge References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75404 Cat: Hogwarts is strong - a sign of DD's leadership - since despite trying to turn it on itself, by appointing Slytherins above others, Umbridge ends up uniting 3 of 4 houses. I am interested to see if Slytherin is bought into the fold some how or perhaps it does have to leave Hogwarts in the end. Dan: I absolutely agree--Umbridge was, shockingly, good for the school. Even though she was a hideous person, her character was fabulous and was, as you said, a unifying force, in spite of her, well, ickiness. As for the Slytherins, they *must* unite with the rest of the school. I've always believed that there are good Slytherins (ones who aren't part of the Young Death Eaters Club); Slytherins who are being cautious and not standing up against the children of the Death Eaters. I am sure we will, eventually, see a Slytherin student who secretly goes to Harry and whispers, "Potter, I'm with you." *crosses fingers* Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lostris37 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 21:06:42 2003 From: lostris37 at hotmail.com (lostris37) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:06:42 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and Percy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75405 Short but sweet. As Ron Says "Percy is a git" That's all there is too it. As far as Umbridge is concerned "birds of a feather". That's all folks. Cheers Aileen From prsawyer at uaa.alaska.edu Mon Aug 4 22:32:50 2003 From: prsawyer at uaa.alaska.edu (mylarboxers) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 22:32:50 -0000 Subject: JKR's best interview In-Reply-To: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F453@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75406 I hate to be thick, but could somebody please tell me where I can find this interview? I've gone through all the posts I can find with this header, but I can't find mention of, nor link to the actual interview to which the header refers. I may have just missed it in all the writing. Thanks! Paula. From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 05:58:55 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 22:58:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Out of term activity at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75407 Dawn: I'm too lack-of-sleep befuddled to figure out where I read this, but someone recently made comment about Loony Luna not being on the train at the end of the academic year, and would students be allowed to wander around Hogwarts during the Summer Holidays? Would there still be any staff around? Faith says: Sybil Trelawny claims that Hogwarts is her home, so presumably she lives there all year round; perhaps a significant number of other teachers do, as well. A fair number of them are always around throughout all the other holidays, easter, christmas etc. If they had homes and families to go to, you'd think they would go for Christmas lunch at least, but Snape, McGonagall, Dumbledore, Trelawny all seem pretty much ever present. Dan: So there is probably some staff floating around (Hagrid too, of course), but why would some students be allowed? Are Terry Boot and Ernie MacMillan orphans? Perhaps Dumbledore is letting them choose to stay at school for that reason, after the whole Evil thing happened to Tom Riddle in that orphanage of his. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 23:34:06 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:34:06 -0000 Subject: It's "Prophecy", not "Prophesy" WAS: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Erin: > I don't recall Voldemort's name being on the prophecy bell jar, so why I see that the word is spelled correctly here. "Prophesy" with an "s" is a verb that means to make a prophecy. Sorry for the pedantry, but correct spelling has always been a rule for HPfGU. Haggriss From EnsTren at aol.com Tue Aug 5 06:13:25 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 02:13:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP: Hogwarts under Umbridge Message-ID: <158.227f9751.2c60a505@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75409 In a message dated 8/5/2003 1:57:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, dangermousehq at hotmail.com writes: > As for the Slytherins, they *must* unite with the rest of the school. I've > always believed that there are good Slytherins (ones who aren't part of the > Young Death Eaters Club); Slytherins who are being cautious and not standing > up against the children of the Death Eaters. I am sure we will, eventually, > see a Slytherin student who secretly goes to Harry and whispers, "Potter, I'm > with you." > > *crosses fingers* > Dan Oh wow that's a great image. And slipping into his hand a slip of paper with names on it, or plans, or even a warning. Slytherins doing what Slytherins do best, being sneaky. Following their head of house footsteps and being a spys amonsgt their own. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coyandbecky at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 02:28:59 2003 From: coyandbecky at yahoo.com (revaunchanistx) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:28:59 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophecy for himself? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804161624.00b931b8@pop.earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75410 In the world of evil lords Voldy had an ingenious plan. I think the one person you are all not mentioning is Lucius Malfoy. Voldemort puts Lucius in charge of the operation. He did not put either one of the Lestranges or any of the other 12 escaped dementors in charge. This leads me to believe that the plan was largely created and executed by Lucius Malfoy. Earlier in the book we see Lucius talking to Fudge. I got the feeling that Lucius could spread around alot of money to many of the MoM employees. Even getting Fudge to keep the order guard away from the Door to the department of mysteries. For Voldemort to physically expose himself to do such a menial task would be stupid. Haven't you all seen the Godfather. How many times did Don Corleone kill someone, or do anything by himself. The risks are too great. Especially when you have someone like Lucius to pull the strings and execute your plan. The only flaw in the plan was Harry refusing to give up the orb. I think Harry's reluctance to give the orb to Lucius was not expected. All of the DE's and Voldemort had assumed that Harry had already been told about the prophecy. In assuming that the Harry was aware of the prophecy the DE's and Voldemort would have deduced that Harry would give up the prophecy and protect his friends instead of protecting the prophecy. If Harry had only retreived the prophecy knowing it's contents curiousity would have not been on his side. He protected the prophecy only because he thought that the information was valuable to the DE's. He did not protect the orb because of the nature of the prophecy. If Dumbledore had told Harry the prophecy, he would have been more apt to throw the prophecy or use it as a barganing tool for the lives of his friends rather than have his friends risk their lives to protect it. The idea that an evil person should just do this, or it would have been much better to do this, is repetive and has all been said before. Isn't that the whole premise behind "Austin Powers." We are all evil genuises at heart and can think up some great plans. However I plan on holding off discussing mine until one actually works. Then I can say another evil genius's plan is dumb. PS: Read the books again and focus on Lucius; he truly is a very skilled and evil person. He is not refered to as the most loyal DE, but he is obviously the most gifted and most used by Voldemort. Maybe not most trusted. But then again in the evil genius handbook your most loyal follower may not be your best man. "revaunchanistx" From pruneau934 at wanadoo.fr Tue Aug 5 02:34:08 2003 From: pruneau934 at wanadoo.fr (Pruneau) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:34:08 -0000 Subject: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75411 Laura wrote: > A possible problem with the theory overall is that I'm not sure that > making Remus a prefect in Ravenclaw would have much effect on the > behavior of James and Sirius if they were in different houses. I > know prefects can take points from any house, but I can't really see > Remus doing that to Moony or Padfoot. Being a Gryffindor prefect > would at least let him keep an eye on them a lot of the time. Maybe this was discussed before, sorry if it was, but are you sure prefects can take points from any house? I thought a prefect could only take points from his own house. Here's the canon: 'I know /prefects/ can't dock points, Weasel King', sneered Malfoy. 'But members of the Inquisitorial Squad -' (OotP, chapter 28, page 551 Bloomsbury hardback) '/You/ don't care about Ginny,' said Ron, whose ears were reddening now. '/You're/ just worried I'm going to mess up your chances of being Head Boy.' 'Five ponts from Gryffindor!' Percy said tersely, fingering his prefect badge. (CoS, chapter 9, page 119 Bloomsbury paperback) (emphasis JKR) In CoS, Percy is only a prefect, not Head Boy yet, so a prefect definitely can take points from his own house, but that seems to be it. Pruneau From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 06:14:08 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:14:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophecy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75412 > Regardless of if he's human, he can still do magic, and thus should be able to alter his appearance just as much as anyone else. Maybe there are limitations to his magical range, but I don't think whipping up a potion or charm to disguise himself would be one of them. Besides, even if it was, there's still muggle means (make up, and a wig.) GEO: We don't know that. Voldemort isn't even human seeing how he was able to survive Avada Kedavra. Dan: But he might be--plus, I maintain that he could have worn an invisibility cloak, or a big sack over his head and sunglasses. === > Dan: > What about the stupefy charm--it's a thin ray that aurors and other law enforcers use on a regular basis to hit targets. GEO: Stupefy is a stunning charm used on people not objects. Dan: Yes, it is. My point is that there were magical means of removing/breaking prophecies. The kids use the Reductor Curse to smash them. A charm that causes focused damage would be ideal. Voldemort could have easily possessed a DE or Nagini and watched when the prophecy was broken. === Dan >It would have made a lot of sense for Voldemort to possess someone, have him carefully curse/charm the prophecy and then listen in. What about levitation charms? If touching the prophecy is what causes madness, and can only be disarmed by the touch of the subject, it could possibly just be levitated into a sack, and then the henchman could skip off into the night back to Evil HQ. GEO Maybe you haven't thought about this, but couldn't the prophecies be charmed so that only human hands not magic could remove them? If anything I think you are underestimating both the ministry in their security matters and Voldemort in his planning the theft of the prophecy especially with so many unknown variables. Dan: I have, and we've seen that they could be broken and seen fine without madness ensuing. A hammer would have done the trick. I think the Ministry had security, but it was broken by the Death Eaters/Voldemort (who's proven himself able to break through the most sophisticated security the Gringott's goblins could devise even while lodged in the back of Quirrel's skull). I also think Voldemort's planning... was not so good. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jeopardy18 at attbi.com Tue Aug 5 02:42:48 2003 From: jeopardy18 at attbi.com (seanmulligan2000) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:42:48 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophecy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: > So my question is, why couldn't LV just have Apparated in > front of the orb, taken it off the shelf, and then Disapparated? > After all, didn't he just want to stay hidden until he got the > prophecy so that he could see what was in it? >>> Voldemort could have used polyjuice to turn himself into Lucius Malfoy and walk into the Ministry and take the phrophesy orb. "seanmulligan2000" From sberinsky at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 02:47:42 2003 From: sberinsky at yahoo.com (Stacy Berinsky) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 19:47:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805024742.51709.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75414 On a slightly different note on Sirius' name, I just made the connection between Sirius the character and Sirius the dog of greek mythology. Which explains his animagus transformation. I'm attempting to find a link between Harry and his Sirius, and the Greek Sirius and his masters, but so far it evades me. Oh, and my apologies if this has already been brought up a thousand times and ripped apart, I'm rather new. "Stacy Berinsky" From pruneau934 at wanadoo.fr Tue Aug 5 02:51:30 2003 From: pruneau934 at wanadoo.fr (Pruneau) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:51:30 -0000 Subject: Augustus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75415 Arioth wrote: > Did anyone else notice there were two characters (albeit both minor characters) named Augustus in OOP-Augustus Rookwood-DE and Augustus Pye-Trainee Healer. I didn't think JKR ever reused names. I can't think of any other characters that have the same first names. Am I forgetting some? Is there any significance to this, or am I just being overly analytical. >>> There also are two Teds: the weatherman in SS/PS, and Ted Tonks, Tonks' father. Of course, they might be the same person, but I'm not buying that. You also have Gregory Goyle and Gregory the Swarmy (statue behind which there is a secret passage F&G found in their first week in Hogwarts), and Ernie MacMillan and Ernie Prang (on the Knight Bus). All these are Muggle names, but even though. As a matter of fact, there is a third Augustus: Augustus Worme commissioned the first of Fantastic Beasts. I don't think sharing first names means something, but there most definitely is a connection between Gladys and Davey Gudgeon. But that has been discussed. Pruneau From pruneau934 at wanadoo.fr Tue Aug 5 02:54:53 2003 From: pruneau934 at wanadoo.fr (Pruneau) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 02:54:53 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75416 Joe "cubs99111" wrote: > Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius pronounced like the word Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name in my head as Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name I guess I would subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly I always read prefects as perfects. >>> The Scholastic pronunciation guide gives the same pronunciation for Sirius as serious. But I don't know if that is canon. Pruneau From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 06:23:37 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:23:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75417 UranusSid: He wants to be safe than sorry, that's why! We have seen from GoF that he doesn't mind waiting and waiting to get something he wants, so why should he go into the Ministry when someone else can do it for him? Why should he take the risk of getting exposed himself? He could disguise himself but he still runs a risk of being caught. He could possess someone but he still runs a risk of being caught. Basically, as long as he is in the Ministry in any form, he runs a risk of being caught. He could go at night, but there may be a nighter walking around that could spot him. But if that happens, he could kill him but you never know if that nighter might find a way to escape. His Death Eaters could break the prophesy and hear it themselves but when they repeat it to their master they may run a chance of mishearing it or forgetting it. Also, there may be magic charms on the prophesy preventing anyone forcing it from the shelves with magic. So, that's out of the question. Dan: Right, he wants to be safe, and I could see that he would be trying to avoid being seen/caught in the act. But, I just do not see why he couldn't just have possessed someone. That would not endanger Voldemort at all. It could show that the Death Eaters are about, but people knew that already. Shacklebolt had been caught trying to break in, and then the DE's escaped. Now, the fact is that Voldemort decided to send a bunch of Death Eaters, his best, in the MoM. While they were hovering around that prophecy for who knows how long, they could have taken a little hammer and smashed it, or cursed it into breaking. We know it's possible--the Kids did it, and none of them are insane (ermm... well...). Furthermore, regardless of if they mishear or forget it, there are TEN DEATH EATERS. Ten grown men and women. I'm absolutely sure that Voldemort would rip the brains out of them all to get that prophecy out of their skull (penseive?). -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 06:36:35 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 23:36:35 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] OotP: Hogwarts under Umbridge References: <158.227f9751.2c60a505@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75418 Nemi: Oh wow that's a great image. And slipping into his hand a slip of paper with names on it, or plans, or even a warning. Slytherins doing what Slytherins do best, being sneaky. Following their head of house footsteps and being a spys amonsgt their own. Dan: Exactly. Precisely it. Many people are so upset that the Slytherins haven't made a stand, but that is not what Slytherins do. As someone who would most definately be in this house, it would be supremely stupid for someone who is part of a house full of mini-Death Eaters, who opposes them to say so outright. You will live with these people for five to seven years. Imagine the hell they could put you through if you were to say on Day Two, "Wait... we hate her because she's muggle-born? That's STUPID!" For people who "save their own skins," and are supposed to be sly, cunning, and tough, that would be insane if they want to be of any use in the future to the good side. These good Slytherins must have a very good plan. Just like Snape, these Slytherins, by not being rash and passionate, have the unique ability to keep playing the part that will get them furthest and deepest in. Anyone can say, "Malfoy, you're a tedious little worm, whose more irritating qualities make tropical skin diseases look like scented hand lotion." Only a Slytherin can spy and learn. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ratalman at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 06:45:59 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:45:59 -0000 Subject: Augustus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arioth1" wrote: > OK. I tried doing a search of the archives on this subject, but came > up empty-handed. > > Did anyone else notice there were two characters (albeit both minor > characters) named Augustus in OOP-Augustus Rookwood-DE and Augustus > Pye-Trainee Healer. I didn't think JKR ever reused names. I can't > think of any other characters that have the same first names. Am I > forgetting some? Is there any significance to this, or am I just > being overly analytical. > > Any ideas or info would be greatly appreciated. > > Arioth I noticed recently that the name Frank is used twice: for Frank Bryce (the old muggle in GoF) and Frank Longbottom (Neville's father). I don't know if there is any significance to this, but I did find it interesting. Robyn From chrissilein at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 06:50:13 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Chrissi) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:50:13 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75420 Hello, As we already know Severus had been the "oddball" at Hogwarts, and the most unpopular student at school. He looks "different" and seems to be a "pureblood", but the Snapes don?t appear among the other pureblood families. I read the discussion that Severus might not be an English boy. Maybe, but what if he is English? Just not of Anglo Saxian ethnic background? If you read very intensive about his magical abilities, the short snips of his childhood and his unbelievele grudge he hold there could be a different possibility. I have always been interested in anthropology and the myths of the different ethnic groups. There is ONE group in all over the world which always had to fight against the poorest prejudices: GYPSIES. Several prejudicies are: 1.they are untrustworthy 2.they are curious, sneaking around, try to harm the "others" (people who live at one place) 2.they are very advanced at dark magic, do potions, are good mindreaders, know a lot about the "others" weakness 3.they are filthy, live in mess 4.they praticise vegeance 5.they hold grudge in generations against their enemies 6.they are proud 7.they are "ugly" 8.they strengthend their kids to fight with all resorts they learned by parents and family 9. they are thieves 10. they are jealous because of the good life the "others" seem to have 11.they have no place to live, because they are always drifting from one place to an other 12. they are simply weird, in different ways These are typical stereotypes about the gypsies, and Severus Snape could be of a gypsy origin. Even he lives an assimilated life. From vuwildcat03 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 03:42:54 2003 From: vuwildcat03 at yahoo.com (Kevin) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:42:54 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75422 > *Yaira*: > I think it's very possible that a shipk could develop between Harry > and Ginny. JKR introduced two boyfriends for Ginny in OOP. I think > she did that to impress upon us that Ginny isn't just a little squirt > anymore - she's dating already. IMHO I think she's trying to pave the > way for Ginny and Harry to date. I must agree. For the first 3 books I was holding out for Harry and Hermione but obviously their relationship has developed into something all together different which I think is really cool. I have always loved Harry's close bond with the Weasley family and I would love to see Harry and Ginny hook up. I just hope the relationship doesn't overshadow the intense storylines that have developed through the first 5 books. -Kevin From brightlywoven at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 04:23:13 2003 From: brightlywoven at yahoo.com (brightlywoven) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:23:13 -0000 Subject: Back to Diagon Alley In-Reply-To: <20030805030258.61708.qmail@web14809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75424 ---jsmgleaner wrote: > Second, I think that Ollivander's character will have > a more prominant role, and I believe he is an Order > member with his ear to the ground of Diagon Alley (see > knowledge of Tom Riddle above).... > > Or, and I don't mind contradicting myself, he knew Tom > Riddle was Voldemort because he is a covert Death > Eater himself.... > Finally, I think that this means the narrative will > return to Knockturn Alley ... > Any theories? thoughts? I have no idea whether O will have a bigger role in future books, but I certainly hope so. I know JKR can't put everything in every book, but I miss the trips to Diagon Alley when they are not there or are very limited. O is one of my favorite characters from book 1 and we don't see nearly enough of him. I wanted to see Ron's wand selection scene so much. (I also agree with another poster that we should see more of what Harry GIVES and less of what he gets, given that he is relatively wealthy. Plus, I just like the stuff of the magical world.) I have just joined the group and as such have not had time to read all the thousands of posts that have gone before :), but I too wondered about who knew Tom Riddle was V, why it wasn't better known, why they didn't take down his spurious award for Special Services to the school, etc. I guess I'll have to check the archives for more on that, but if anyone can point me in a good direction, it would be appreciated. Happy to be here and to help save you from tears, jsmgleaner. Brightlywoven From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 06:58:54 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:58:54 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75425 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: > > ...edited... > > So my question is, why couldn't LV just have Apparated in > front of the orb, taken it off the shelf, and then Disapparated? > After all, didn't he just want to stay hidden until he got the > prophecy so that he could see what was in it? > > Mhershey bboy_mn: Others have added a lot to this thread, so I will try and keep it short. When a country goes to war, do they send the king or the president to fight it? If George Bush wanted Saddam Hussien out of Iraq, why didn't he just go over there and do it himself. OK, even I admit that was a stupid example (ie:G.Bush), but it still illustrates the point. The Kings, the Presidents, the General, and evil overlords don't go into battle, they send the troops in. For more comments on the questions you posed, check out this thread- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/70696 Worth a look. Just a thought. bboy_mn From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 04:29:08 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:29:08 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? In-Reply-To: <20030804165012.64345.qmail@web13703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75426 --- > "sbursztynski" wrote: > This may have been handled in another thread, so excuse me if it has, but ... just how *is* the wizard government chosen? While it's not impossible that an idiot like Fudge would be elected democratically. . . > > Allyson > I'm just going to say this, then run for cover; If it can happen in the U.S., it can happen anywhere. Doesn't seem all that far-fetched to me. I'm running now!! Gotta go! > > Laxer: > If your are taking that shot, what about the wonderful Florida voters who couldn't figure out what hole to punch? Third graders were able to figure out how to use the ballots I believe. >>> Not to get too political, but the votes in Florida were never properly counted, by order of the Supreme Court, so we don't really know what they thought. Olaf, glad and big MOD NOTE: The topic of politics is one on which we tread lightly in this group -- it's caused some hard feelings in the past. Aside from that, this thread is moving in too off-topic a direction, so let's please keep this about canon. Thanks! From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Aug 5 07:03:47 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:03:47 -0000 Subject: Luna and Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana_Sirius_fan" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oh have faith" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "american_pie8887" > > wrote: > > > I was reading a quote about Lupin and it was Peeves calling > > > him "Loony loopy Lupin" > > > Faith's Girl wrote: > > They invite a similar kind of word play, certainly. But it could > > just be coincidence; my reading was that JKR called Ms > > Lovegood "Luna" because she is a little loony - the moon has often > > been associated with madness (hence "lunatics"). Many old wives > > tales attribute strange behaviour to starring at the moon too long, > > or walking under a full moon and the like. > > Now Me: > > I have a hard time believing that JK has coicidences. The > word "looney" is slang from the Latin word luna for moon. Luna has > probably been bitten by a werewolf. This came up in an earlier post > (sorry can't remember who wrote it), but maybe the spell that Luna's > mom was trying to work on and died from was one to cure > Luna. > Or perhaps she is *going* to be bitten by a werewolf. Imagine if she and Lupin were working closely together in the fight against Voldemort in one of the next two books, and she got bitten by him accidentally (esp if he forgot his potion again)... --Arcum From malinit at excite.com Tue Aug 5 07:40:11 2003 From: malinit at excite.com (malinitosetti) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 07:40:11 -0000 Subject: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > I've seen a number of posts suggesting that each of the Marauders > belonged to a different house. There seems to be general agreement > that James was a Gryffindor (this is canon)and Remus would have been > a Ravenclaw. I can see Peter being a Hufflepuff, but Sirius a > Slytherin? He never displayed the kind of ruthless ambition that > characterizes that house. If he had been at all ambitious, he would > not have broken with his family, who were purebloods and seemed to > have quite a lot of status in the WW. In fact, you might argue that > his unswerving loyalty to his friends would put him in Hufflepuff, > leaving Peter in Slytherin, where he belongs. He just doesn't seem > like a Hufflepuff, though-he's too bright, too brash and too > reckless. So what do you all think? > > A possible problem with the theory overall is that I'm not sure that > making Remus a prefect in Ravenclaw would have much effect on the > behavior of James and Sirius if they were in different houses. I > know prefects can take points from any house, but I can't really see > Remus doing that to Moony or Padfoot. Being a Gryffindor prefect > would at least let him keep an eye on them a lot of the time. > > Laura Well, I don't know if this has already been said, but there is a kind of parallel with the second generation (that is the group of Harry, Ron, hermione and Neville). If you think about it, the Sorting Hat considered to put Harry in Slytherin and Hermione in Ravenclaw. We don't know about Neville but it is said that the hat took a long time to decide where to put him (maybe it was considering putting him in Huppelpuff). Ron was clearly a Gryffindor. But in the end, the Hat put them all in Gryffindor. Maybe something similar happened with the marauders (they could all have been sorted in different houses but the hat thought it was better to "unite" them in the same house...) Mali From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 07:49:26 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:49:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75429 bboy_mn: Others have added a lot to this thread, so I will try and keep it short. When a country goes to war, do they send the king or the president to fight it? Dan: The problem with that analogy is that George Bush is not America's most powerful warrior. Voldemort is an incredibly powerful powerful wizard. Perhaps he'd have more success if he didn't leave his plots in the hands of others (or had a good one). -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 07:51:28 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 00:51:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75430 Mali: Well, I don't know if this has already been said, but there is a kind of parallel with the second generation (that is the group of Harry, Ron, hermione and Neville). If you think about it, the Sorting Hat considered to put Harry in Slytherin and Hermione in Ravenclaw. We don't know about Neville but it is said that the hat took a long time to decide where to put him (maybe it was considering putting him in Huppelpuff). Ron was clearly a Gryffindor. But in the end, the Hat put them all in Gryffindor. Maybe something similar happened with the marauders (they could all have been sorted in different houses but the hat thought it was better to "unite" them in the same house...) Dan: I really like this idea--Neville, Ron, Hermione and Harry representing the 4 Houses united in one. Perhaps the same thing *did* happen to the Marauders. Time (Rowling) will tell. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 5 08:46:38 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:46:38 -0000 Subject: Add/take a few commas In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > I was just wondering about the prophesy (yea, really - me, too) - > maybe if a comma or two were added or taken out of the text of the > prophesy - could that change anything about the meaning of what it > might say? > Maybe give or take a full-stop/period......? > Sometimes only a small change of punctuations can change a lot. > English is not my native language so Im leaving it up to you all to > try it out :) > > Inge Oh my word, yes! I think it would be possible to predict just about *anything* if you start adding punctuation marks. I love playing about with the English language but I'd feel daunted by the number of possible permutations. Maybe there's a piece of software that could randomly add commas, colons, semi-colons, periods, question marks and exclamation marks and come up with non-rubbish phrases, but I don't know of one. The Prophesy is spoken in a 'high harsh tone', so it's probably without any particular emphasis on any particular word or words; and even emphases could cause us to rethink some of the phrases. It's a nightmare! Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 5 09:00:45 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:00:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > I've seen a number of posts suggesting that each of the Marauders > belonged to a different house. There seems to be general agreement > that James was a Gryffindor (this is canon)and Remus would have been > a Ravenclaw. I can see Peter being a Hufflepuff, but Sirius a > Slytherin? He never displayed the kind of ruthless ambition that > characterizes that house. If he had been at all ambitious, he would > not have broken with his family, who were purebloods and seemed to > have quite a lot of status in the WW. In fact, you might argue that > his unswerving loyalty to his friends would put him in Hufflepuff, > leaving Peter in Slytherin, where he belongs. He just doesn't seem > like a Hufflepuff, though-he's too bright, too brash and too > reckless. So what do you all think? > > Laura I get the impression that the Sorting Hat looks at the *potential* of a student based on their current mind set rather than being able to see into the future with certainty. At the time of Sirius' sorting he would not yet have made any friends at Hogwarts, so their influence (if any) would be unknown. Sirius' upbringing would already have helped to form his attitudes and behaviour and this may have had an effect on the choice of the Sorting Hat. Kneasy From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 5 09:20:28 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:20:28 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308051120.28323.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75433 Dan: > Furthermore, regardless of if they mishear or forget it, there are TEN > DEATH EATERS No, there can't be a mishearing or forgetting. That's what pensieves are for. aisha: <> That's why I'd use Harry to retrieve the prophecy <> Easy thing. I remember again I can perform Imperio and 'hire' a FX man to make a mask. With that an a cloak (not my Papented Evil Lord tunic, another one), I'm another DE. But I keep saying he does not need to be there. "revaunchanistx" <> But I haven't hold my plan. I've posted it for you to take it down. I'm still waiting a logical counterattack to my plan, not minor points as if he is able to disguise or not. I'm used to do this, btw. If I signed my post as an Evil Lord is because I have had to 'simulate' it, in a rol game when we were 12 Evil Lords grouped in bands of three (militar, political and religious leaders) and had to outwit the other 9. I didn't hold my plans then, I forced the game director to do a writer trick and change the rules because I was too near to conquer the world and that wasn't the storyline. If we can make great plans strictly with the little knowledge we have about magic, he should do better plans. He is supposed to be brilliant. Wich makes me ask why was he there? To steal a time-turner, maybe? If I were an Evil Lord and had a tturner... mm. silmariel From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 09:20:28 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:20:28 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75434 > Joe "cubs99111" wrote: > > Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius pronounced like > the word Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name > in my head as Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name > I guess I would subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly Hi, In interviews, JKR has always said sir-ee-us, nto serious or sirus - if that helps! That's the way I've always said it in my head, and also how Steven Fry reads it out on the UK books on tape version of it. From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Aug 5 09:34:23 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:34:23 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle matches (Was Re: Muggle-born adults) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75435 On Monday, Aug 4, 2003, at 01:34 Europe/London, Jesta Hijinx wrote: > > This is a *staggeringly* excellent question and, *sweeps off hat and > bows > low* my hat is off to you because I'd never even thought of this > question, > and it's one I'd think of with my sociological and social history > interests. How kind! I can't quite think why it hadn't occurred to me before, either... > > I can only guess that the Weasleys are somewhat anomalous - perhaps > 'The > Burrow' has been in the family for centuries, and they are anomalous in > living quite so much on their own - I'm guessing that quite a few > wizards > actually integrate into suburbs and the big and much more anonymous > city of > London and have occasion to encounter muggles in shops and such. I > imagine > that there is a segment of the WW that doesn't mingle exclusively with > their > own kind and shop only at Diagon Alley - DA seemed to have mostly > magical > things that were only obtainable there, but perhaps your rank and file > wizarding family goes to the local grocery for food. Remember, > Hogsmeade is > the only all wizard town in Britain - most of the wizarding community > lives > elsewhere. > I suppose the fairest thing to say is that wizards who don't want to have contact with the muggle world don't need to - they can Floo everywhere, shop in their own shops, read their own papers etc, but that wizards who, as you suggest, live in or near the big cities and towns probably learn to get along muggle-fashion. I suppose Harry probably doesn't notice the ones who are behaving in a 'normal' way. Hmm. "bibphile" wrote: >Many of the wiches and wizards that marry muggles are probably muggle-born. They still associate with their families. A muggle- born which might occassinonaly go out to a muggle club or party with with her sister and meet some one there. Or one of her parents neighbors may drop by to borrow something while she's there and start flirting with her. The same rules might apply with actual (literal) half-bloods.< Good point. Hermione seems to have dropped all contact with the muggle world, but she isn't necessarily typical. At any rate, it seems the dichotomy isn't quite as bad as I'd thought it was. Thanks, folks! Pen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 09:36:28 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:36:28 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho (why should it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75436 Some one wrote, in response to Harry being hurt by Cho: Why should it hurt him? He didn't want her - that is pretty clear. > He treated her horribly. He never really liked whoever Cho was as a > person. Harry was only attracted to Cho because he thought she was > pretty and when she turned out to be a less than perfect battle > companion, he ignored her completely. While they were together, he > never tried to even get to know her. I still have no idea what > subjects Cho likes - or even what classes she takes. I doubt Harry > does either. (Surely a boy who likes a girl would at least find that > out.) It was one thing when he liked her from afar - that was cute. > Afterall, it is difficult to know a girl when you never talk to her. > But the fact that he's not interested in knowing those things when he > gets up close is rather disturbing. As if Cho is best liked when she > keeps her pretty self quiet. What right has he to be hurt by > anything Cho does after he forgets she exsists? > > Sure Cho behaves bizarely throughout the book and in the end like a > a villan from Josie and the Pussy Cats or Jem and the Holograms > (both shows I love BTW - but hardly gripping realistic television). > She'll probably try to boil Hedwig one day, but Harry was hardly a > nice to her. IMHO he treated her like an object to be enjoyed while > it gave him pleasure and tossed aside when it bored/annoyed him. He > never cared about her feelings at all.(and yes even an oblivious > angry 15 year old can know that when a girl weeps while she's kissing > you, asking her out again is probably a bad move.) A gentleman would > have stayed clear of Cho, but been kind about it. Instead his > actions remind me of the Bloodhound Gang line - "It is always better > when the stripper cries". Sick and preposterous - but that song is > funny. > > But perhaps if we are lucky, Hermione might develop some feelings for > Harry as she seems to worship him so extensively that no boy could > possibly live up to the wonder that is 'Harry Potter'. (I really > don't think it will happen - she seems clearly destined for Ron - > poor soul. I hope he gets in some good times before Rowling gives > him over to Hermione.) > > But then Rowling and I certainly have different opinions on girls and > boys and dating. I think 15 year old boys are capable of seeing > girls as more than objects even during their most hormonal bouts. > Nice boys are both attracted to girls physcially and emotionally - > even if they can't conceptualize why or what they feel. Nice boys can > act like jerks but they don't do so for a 6-8 months - no matter how > many hormones are surging through their bodies. (whether it was just > poor writing or a sign that Harry's indeed a jerk is up to every > reader...) > > Hate to say it but Harry was a jerk of a boyfriend. About the only > girl I would wish him on is Hermione. Remember Cedric Diggory > indeed! I'll bet Cedric knew what Cho's favourite subject was... and > whole host of things about her that he took to his grave. > > "feetmadeofclay" I think this is a bit harsh on Harry. He didn't ignore her and treat her badly for 6/8 months - he didn't really get to ahve a proper conversation with until their date, because before that it was either within the DA, or in the owlery, interrupted by Filch. and on the date he was really nervous and talked about thing they had in common to keep the conversatino going, like quidditch and Umbridge and things. And I don't think it says he was purposefully ingoring her or dissing her after the date - he just didn't know how to deal with the whole Cedric thing, which would be a really awkward subject for anyone - he was happy when she believed the story in the Quibler - it just went all wrong when her friend nearly got them all expelled - he was really angry about that and just had a go at her, which wasn't really fair but probably ar easonable reaction. With all the other complications in his life he was prboably hoping for a girlfriend he could get to know - without her bringing up her dead ex-boyfriend who he saw being murdered anytime anything went a bit quiet or wrong between them. JKR did have ARthur Weasley say in Book 4 (as regards the Veela) that boys shouldn't go for looks alone - and maybe Harry was a bit guilty of that with Cho - I see somethign happening with him and Luna, who isn't described as being exactly pretty... I just don't think Harry was that much of a jerk. From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 09:43:23 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:43:23 -0000 Subject: Coming of Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > Seeing the posts about the age to drive or own a bike, I was > wondering and > > wonder if an actual UK'er can give an answer (not a guess from one > of us > > living elsewhere)-- what are the milestone ages in the UK? Like > when can > > you get a driving license? What is the age of consent (sexual)? > I'm a Uk-er - and here's the stats: Age 16: you can get married with parental consent (unless you elope to Scotland, where you don't need their consent), and have consensual sex. YOu can also leave school, get a job. 17. Drivers licence 18. Drink alcahol, vote. Hope that helps! From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Tue Aug 5 09:51:05 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:51:05 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chrissi" wrote: > Hello, > > As we already know Severus had been the "oddball" at Hogwarts, and the > most unpopular student at school. He looks "different" and seems to be > a "pureblood", but the Snapes don?t appear among the other > pureblood > families. Now Cindy: How do you know that the Snape's don't appear among other wizarding families? You don't, that's the whole point. Firstly, all we have to go on is one tapestry - and that is a Black family tree, perhaps the Snape's arn't interrelated with the Blacks, or perhaps Harry didn't bother looking at the whole tapestry - it is huge, and Harry only looked at a small portion of it. > If you read very intensive about his magical abilities, the short > snips of his childhood and his unbelievele grudge he hold there could > be a different possibility. Cindy again: If you look at Draco's magical abilities you will find that they are similar to the way Snape's are described as being at Draco's age. It seems to me more that it is a pureblood tradition, to teach their children as much as they can about all kinds of magic, especially the kind that isn't taught at school. I have no doubts that Snape is a pureblood wizard. He is the Head of Slytherin house, called Lilly a filthy mudblood, and only wears robes with no muggle clothes underneath. So it would be fitting that he would learn those things at home. And we don'treally know anything about his parents - where did Snape's father's loyalties luy? > Several prejudicies are: > > 1.they are untrustworthy > 2.they are curious, sneaking around, try to harm the "others" (people > who live at one place) > 2.they are very advanced at dark magic, do potions, are good > mindreaders, know a lot about the "others" weakness > 3.they are filthy, live in mess > 4.they praticise vegeance > 5.they hold grudge in generations against their enemies > 6.they are proud > 7.they are "ugly" > 8.they strengthend their kids to fight with all resorts they learned > by parents and family > 9. they are thieves > 10. they are jealous because of the good life the "others" seem to > have > 11.they have no place to live, because they are always drifting from > one place to an other > 12. they are simply weird, in different ways > > These are typical stereotypes about the gypsies, and Severus Snape > could be of a gypsy origin. Even he lives an assimilated life. Cindy again: This is an interesting theory, and who knows, you might be right. I can't wait to learn more about Snape, he is my most favourite character. Though, Gypsy's generally tend to have dark skin, and Snape is extremely pale. I have noticed though, that many characters in the HP world resemble each other. (Tom Riddle telling Harry that they look very similar comes to mind). This is either because they are interrelated, or something else that we don't yet know! But I have noticed that many characters have black hair: Snape, Riddle, Potter(s), Black(s) etc... -Cindy Snape fans visit http://www.designerpotions.com/ss From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Aug 5 09:59:43 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:59:43 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Map of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <3F2F570D.9736.361D048@localhost> Message-ID: <89B19506-C72B-11D7-AF1E-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 75439 On Monday, Aug 4, 2003, at 22:04 Europe/London, Shaun Hately wrote: > > Straw poll! Who thinks they'd have privacy partitions in the bathrooms > (NOT THE TOILETS - BRITISH ENGLISH HERE, PEOPLE - besides we have hard > data on the toilets) at Hogwarts? Help me make the decision for my maps > At my boarding school there were several bathrooms which each contained a bath, and usually also a washbasin. Same was true at college. So I've always assumed separate bathrooms, although the commoners wouldn't expect the level of luxury that the prefects' bathroom offers. The loos, OTOH, were in a row of partitioned stalls, with a row of washbasins opposite them. Only time I ever shared body-washing facilities was at the rowing club, where there was a row of showers without partition of any kind. Pen From pen at pensnest.co.uk Tue Aug 5 10:15:04 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:15:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Coming of Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75440 On Tuesday, Aug 5, 2003, at 03:46 Europe/London, Arya wrote: > Seeing the posts about the age to drive or own a bike, I was wondering > and > wonder if an actual UK'er can give an answer (not a guess from one of > us > living elsewhere)-- what are the milestone ages in the UK? Like when > can > you get a driving license? What is the age of consent (sexual)? What > is the > age of voting, drinking, etc..all that crap. I see all different > things in fan fics > and conjecture but I think it's just biased to suit ones needs (most > especially > in Fandom) so I was wondering if someone can give a solid answer. > > If you are still unclear what I mean, here is an example for the US > (every > state may be a little different, my answers are for Wisconsin-- where > I am): > > 15 and a half: eligible for learner's permit to learn to drive > 16: eligible for a driver's license > 18: eligible to vote, engage in "consensual sex", enter into a legal > contract > (marriage, buy home, etc), join military, gambling (someplaces), pay > taxes, > buy cigarettes, and maybe some others things- this si the general > "Comming > of Age" mark in the US. > 21: Drink (in most places in the US, some still are only 18), Gambling > (if the > age isn't 18, then its 21, depending on the location) > 25: age at which insurance companies finally think you are an adult > and so > they lower your rates and you can now--finally--rent a car. > (Personally, this > one has always really pissed me off, well, it did anyway, when I was > under > 25) > > Any UK answers?? > Umm.... 16 Age of consent for sex. Can purchase cigarettes. (Image of smoking afterwards hastily wiped from Pen's mind) Can marry, if parental consent is obtained. This does not seem to have any parallel in the Wizarding World, at least, not that we've learned about. 17 Can learn to drive. (Strictly, I suppose people with access to private land can drive when they are younger, but to go on the public highway you must be 17 or more.) You can take the driving test at any point after your 17th birthday. Note that driving lessons are *not* part of the school curriculum but must be paid for privately (unless parents can be conned into it, a prospect I regard with some horror now that my daughter is 16). The obvious parallel here is with Wizards coming of age at 17, being allowed to do magic, and being able to obtain their Apparition license. 18 Can vote. Can marry without parental consent. Can buy alcohol in pubs. (Obviously alcohol for the young is frowned on, at least by Hermione, but I can't remember whether it would be illegal for Ron to obtain Fire-Whisky, or just naughty!) 21 The symbolic 'coming of age' but there isn't much left of importance by now. Possibly you cannot become a Member of Parliament until you are 21, I'm not sure. Possibly also cannot obtain HGV license (Heavy Goods Vehicle) until 21, but that is a vague notion of mine and I wouldn't swear to it. Minimum school leaving age is 16, and you start paying tax once you start earning a sufficient sum. I don't know at what age people are entitled to join the military. Don't know about age limits on car rental, either, but the ability to drive is not quite as crucial in the UK as in the USA. Hope this helps, Pen From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 5 10:22:48 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:22:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coming of Age References: Message-ID: <002401c35b3b$8f840d60$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75441 From: ffimiles wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > Seeing the posts about the age to drive or own a bike, I was > wondering and > > wonder if an actual UK'er can give an answer (not a guess from one > of us > > living elsewhere)-- what are the milestone ages in the UK? Like > when can > > you get a driving license? What is the age of consent (sexual)? > I'm a Uk-er - and here's the stats: Age 16: you can get married with parental consent (unless you elope to Scotland, where you don't need their consent), and have consensual sex. YOu can also leave school, get a job. 17. Drivers licence 18. Drink alcahol, vote. Hope that helps! -------------------- Actually, it's only the buying of alchol that is 18 - it is legal to drink alcohol (except on licenced premises) at any age over 5 years. Driving licences have diferent ages for different catagories - 16 for lower powered m/cycles (do they still have the agricultural machinery class? That used to be 16), 17 for most other categories, but I believe it is higher for HGV's still (was 21). Most gambling is 18, but for some things (like lotteries) it is 16 Tobacco product buying is 16, but I think it doesn't have a usage age limit Military service is usually 18, but can be from 17 with parental permission (very rarely offered to candidates these days, usually only in exceptional cases) Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From louisewsanz at yahoo.com.au Tue Aug 5 03:23:54 2003 From: louisewsanz at yahoo.com.au (=?iso-8859-1?q?Louise=20Sanz?=) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:23:54 +1000 (EST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re; Sirius's name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805032354.30486.qmail@web80604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75442 whimsyflower wrote: I believe it is pronounced like "serious" in English. I think his name might be connected to the brightest star in our heavens, Sirius, also know as the Dog Star. ******** you know it could be as simple as Sirius Black being a play on words of 'Serious Black' - you know a dark, brooding, serious character - it's a pretty effective way of naming an ambiguous character - keep it simple. From two4menone4you88 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 05:05:24 2003 From: two4menone4you88 at aol.com (yairadubin) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 05:05:24 -0000 Subject: the scorcerers stone Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75443 If Nicholas Flamel is 600+ years old, Dumbledore must also be around that age. They made the stone together, presumably before Flamel was maybe 100 or something so how old is Dumbledore and has he been taking the elixir too? *Yaira* From Mags1326 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 05:24:34 2003 From: Mags1326 at yahoo.com (Mags1326) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 05:24:34 -0000 Subject: Petunia Dursley In-Reply-To: <000401c35abb$f6265f80$ad516751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75444 fFred: > Figgy can see the Dementors, even though Dudley can't. This is my first post, so bear with my newbie status, please. :-) I don't think Petunia is a squib either, given all the times that it's been mentioned Lily was a muggle born witch. I think her knowledge of Azkaban came from James, as she said (OoP) and knowledge of Voldemort probably came from the letter Dumbledore left with infant Harry on her doorstep. (PS/SS) I don't think squibs can see dementors, given that Mrs. Figg's evidence at Harry's trial was a bit shaky at best. I think it's most likely that she was going on discriptions that she had heard from real wizards. From nebell at pacbell.net Tue Aug 5 05:33:36 2003 From: nebell at pacbell.net (nancyellenbell) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 05:33:36 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75445 I will be very disappointed if Harry ends up with Cho. Harry needs to be with someone who is his equal, like Ginny. WIth Cho, it's all about Cho. Honestly, I wanted to slap her whiny little face when she kept pulling all the drama queen stunts. Blech. From Mags1326 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 06:10:40 2003 From: Mags1326 at yahoo.com (Mags1326) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:10:40 -0000 Subject: Lily's magical abilities? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75446 "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I agree. Lilly has to have been a very powerful witch. > > Harry gets all his immense power from a combination of both parents. > And we know Harry to be one of the most powerfull wizards born in a > long time. Dumbledore has said so himself somewhere in the series. > Also Rowling is very specific in telling us (repeatedly) that Harry > looks like his dad but has his mother's eyes. I take from that to > mean on the surface he is like his dad but inside, his heart, his > sole and his magical ability are more like his mum. Still new at this, bear with me :-) I agree, Lily must have been a very powerful witch. All of Harry's talent can't be coming from his father, Lily was Head Girl at Hogwarts. There is definite merit to the "inside he's like his mum' theory (spoken by a woman who looks just like her mom but has her father's eyes), and that could be LV's undoing. If Lily was a muggle born witch (which I believe given the 'mudblood' ref from Snape in OoP) then she was not steeped in generations of magical thought. Harry was also raised by muggles, and brings a fresh perspective to the battle against LV. Obviously they tried the traditional ways of defeating LV the first time around, and were pretty much failing. Some new blood could be the key. From greatraven at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 06:53:57 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:53:57 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: <20030805024742.51709.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Stacy Berinsky wrote: > On a slightly different note on Sirius' name, I just made the connection between Sirius the character and Sirius the dog of greek mythology. Which explains his animagus transformation. I'm attempting to find a link between Harry and his Sirius, and the Greek Sirius and his masters, but so far it evades me. > > Oh, and my apologies if this has already been brought up a thousand times and ripped apart, I'm rather new. > > "Stacy Berinsky" Actually, we find out in OoTP that most of his family had "star" names, but I always thought it rather delicious that a black dog animagus has the name of the Dog Star and the surname "Black". I am pretty sure this is deliberate, like many of the other names, such as Remus (as in Romulus's brother)Lupin ("wolf-like"). JKR has fun in a Dickens-like way with names. It's great, too - gets child readers to go look it up, I hope, and learn something new. (I'm a teacher-librarian and love being there to help them when they do!) Su From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Tue Aug 5 07:52:14 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 08:52:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F2F622E.2090106@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75448 cubs99111 wrote: > Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius pronounced like the word > Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name in my head as > Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name I guess I would > subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly I always read > prefects as perfects. > > > Joe (knowing that unfortunatly no matter how his name is pronounced, > he is still gone) Assuming it's the same as the Star, (which fits in with the rest of the black family first names) it's like the word Serious. http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/audio.pl?sirius01.wav=Sirius That's how I pronounce it anyway. -Ravenclaw Black From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 09:34:16 2003 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (cressida_tt) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:34:16 -0000 Subject: Harry/Ginny ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" wrote: *Yaira*: > I think she's trying to pave the > > way for Ginny and Harry to date. > > Kevin: and I would love to see Harry and Ginny hook up. I just hope the relationship doesn't > overshadow the intense storylines that have developed through the first 5 books. Cressida replies: I have always thought that Ginny will have a significance to the plot. That early glimpse was so telling as was the inference in OOtP that Ginny is very powerful - Bat Bogey Hexes and quick progress with the DA. She is also capable of telling Harry things that Ron has difficulty with on several occasion and of putting him down when necessary. I am sure that Ginny will be significant to the plot and as it is Harry's tale then there will be a connection with him. As to the romance, it simply isn't JK Rowling's style to allow this to take over the plot when there is so much other story to be told. If it happens between these two characters or any others then I doubt that she will allow the plot to drift down the Mills and Boon route. I am sure that we can leave that to fan fiction though! From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 10:05:14 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:05:14 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75450 Just curious, but what happens to Grimmauld Place now? Who inherits? From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 5 11:01:53 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:01:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Back to Diagon Alley References: <20030805030258.61708.qmail@web14809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003501c35b40$fb8c0d00$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75451 From: jsmgleaner Hi all, I've been thinking about the post I sent out about whether Ollivander knew Tom Riddle was Voldemort (as might be concluded from assuming that Riddle bought the wand he uses as as eleven year-old on his way to Hogwarts and not as the older Riddle-turned-Voldemort, and that Ollivander, <>>>> ----------- I'd not noticed that before. You're right, he certainly implies that there is something to ponder on the owner of the other wand. It is possible that Tom Riddle went to school using his mother's wand, as it seems that it is not unusual for wands to be passed through the family, and only bought a fine new one from the prestigious Ollivander's when he was established in his new identity as Voldemort. I'd lean towards that answer. It's also possible that O is one of those traditionalists that is more concerned with his craft and the best possible match of wand/client than the pecaddilos of his clients, although he is the holder of more information on them than is common knowledge. Of course, it may have just been a plot clue as to a further link between HP/LV that was convenient to deliver in that way, and we won't be seeing anything more of O. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 11:14:50 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:14:50 -0000 Subject: Pronunciation of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lostris37" wrote: > Here's a small but maybe valid theory. "Voldemort" LOOKS french, and > as we all know "mort" = dead in french. JK pronounces it the French > way, but then she went to a muggle school where french would have > been part of the curriculum. As far as I know, you don't get french > at Hogwarts so it would stand to reason that in the wizarding world > people would pronounce the name as they see it (or even as they THINK > it should be, I refer of course to Ron Weasley's use of the > word "feelytone" > Aileen Me: I have to confess to having a double standard here. Like a poster some days ago, I have always tended to think of a silent "t" in Wizengamot but strangely, I've always thought of Voldemort with the "t" sounded. This may be the influence of the films or it may be a throwback to reading "Morte d'Arthur" at school and having the village of Mortehoe not a million miles away. I kow there is an extra "e" there but it may have influenced my thinking. In passing, re Firenze. In the film, Robbie Coltrane uses the two syllable version, but I think the three ought to be correct. It is Italian and is the correct name for the city of Florence. Geoff From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 11:26:15 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 04:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Mirror (was Re: Petunia Dursley) In-Reply-To: <003f01c35ae8$3d585ee0$3e9ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: <20030805112615.98288.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75453 If the mirror works on the subconcious, then Harry would have seen those people as a baby, but only his subconcious mind knew them later. The mirror was able to pull those memories out to make a whole picuture. It is quite possible not all that Harry saw were family, but friends. I doubt at ago one that Harry was able to tell the difference between an uncle seen once and a friend that was over alot. --- Richelle Votaw wrote: > > Claire wrote: > > > Yes, but how do you explain Harry seeing others in > the Mirror of > > Erised with green eyes? Granted that the mirror > shows the deepest, > > most desperate desire of your heart, but Harry saw > other ancestors > > Well that's easy enough to explain. The mirror > gives "Neither knowledge nor > truth." Simple enough. It took a combination of > the memories Harry had of > his parents and showed him them along with > nonexistent people who had > similar features. The eyes, the knees, the hair, > and so on. I personally > think the only "real" people the mirror showed were > Harry, James and Lily. > Just because the mirror showed things it doesn't > mean they were real. > > Richelle > > > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 11:28:26 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:28:26 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804173319.00ac8928@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, music4masses wrote: > > I don't recall Voldemort's name being on the prophecy bell jar, so why > would he try to get it himself? The prophecy orb was labelled "Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter". Presumably there was only one Dark Lord..... Geoff From p_yanna at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 11:51:20 2003 From: p_yanna at hotmail.com (frumenta) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 11:51:20 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75455 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chrissi" wrote: > Hello, > > As we already know Severus had been the "oddball" at Hogwarts, and the > most unpopular student at school. He looks "different" and seems to be > a "pureblood", but the Snapes don?t appear among the other > pureblood > families. I read the discussion that Severus might not be an English > boy. Maybe, but what if he is English? Just not of Anglo Saxian ethnic > background? > There is ONE group in all over the world which always had to fight > against the poorest prejudices: GYPSIES. > > Several prejudicies are: > > 1.they are untrustworthy > 2.they are curious, sneaking around, try to harm the "others" (people > who live at one place) > 2.they are very advanced at dark magic, do potions, are good > mindreaders, know a lot about the "others" weakness > 3.they are filthy, live in mess > 4.they praticise vegeance > 5.they hold grudge in generations against their enemies > 6.they are proud > 7.they are "ugly" > 8.they strengthend their kids to fight with all resorts they learned > by parents and family > 9. they are thieves > 10. they are jealous because of the good life the "others" seem to > have > 11.they have no place to live, because they are always drifting from > one place to an other > 12. they are simply weird, in different ways > > These are typical stereotypes about the gypsies, and Severus Snape > could be of a gypsy origin. Even he lives an assimilated life. That is a very interesting theory. His skin is either described as sallow or pale and that confuses me, it's not the same thing. But if we stick with sallow skin, it makes sense. Greasy hair also makes sense whether he washes it, or not. I would guess he is half gypsy, though. He would have to be more dark skinned to be a full blooded Gypsy. And his constant bad temper could partly be explained with how his gypsy blood is making him yearn to leave but Dumbledore keeps him tied there. Or some other cliche of your choice. Mim From suzloua at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 11:52:47 2003 From: suzloua at hotmail.com (Susan Atherton) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:52:47 +0100 Subject: Coming Of Age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75456 Arya wrote: > Seeing the posts about the age to drive or own a bike, I was wondering and > wonder if an actual UK'er can give an answer (not a guess from one of us > living elsewhere)-- what are the milestone ages in the UK? Like when can > you get a driving license? What is the age of consent (sexual)? Golly replied: In the UK it is 18 to drink - as it is in most places in the world. But when I was there, you could drink in nearly any local pub - they never carded. Only clubs carded and I never had any problems buying alcohol at any store. I reply: Not to step on your toes, but I'm English, and wanted to throw in my two cents. Now, if I'm not very much mistaken, isn't it only the UK and America that have ages on drinking? I thought "most places in the world" didn't have a drinking age? Can someone in France or Germany or Spain or Holland etc englighten me? As for the UK: 5 - legal to: drink alcohol purchased by someone else over the age of 18 and inside your own home 12 - legal to: enter a 12 or 12A certificate film by yourself 13 - legal to: have job (but without an NI number, you won't get much) 14 - legal to: be in a pub in sight of the bar (rather than in a kiddy section) : be responsible for fastening your own seatbelt in a car (the adult driver can't be fined if you don't have your seatbelt on if you are 14+) 15 - legal to: enter a 15 certificate film by yourself 16 - legal to: get a National Insurance card, and therefore get a job better than a paper round : be in a pub and order a soft drink : be in a pub and drink an alcoholic drink with a meal if someone over 18 buys it for you. : have sexual intercourse (heterosexual) : buy cigarettes 17 - legal to: apply for provisional driving license (learner's permit) and begin driving lessons 18 - legal to: buy alcohol to be consumed by yourself on the premises or anyone else off them : vote in General or local elections : have sexual intercourse (homosexual, male) : enter an 18 certificate film by yourself 21 - legal to: run for public office as an MP (Member of Parliament) : apply for a provisional HGV (Heavy Goods Vehicle) license and begin driving lessons They may be others that I've forgotten, and unless they've changed the rules when I haven't been looking, there is no age of consent on female homosexual intercourse because Queen Victoria didn't believe women would do that and didn't make it legal or illegal when the legislation was written. (Makes you wonder what old Albert was like in the sack, really.) Everything used to be 21 at one time, then they started bringing things down in dribs and drabs until the only things left at 21 are things people don't want to do until they're 21 anyway. I think the reason driving is 17 rather than 18 is that they don't want people to discover the novelty of driving and drinking legally at the same time. And as for the age 25 insurance thing, Golly's right, that is just insurance statistics. Male 17-25, Female 17-25, Male 25+, Female 25+ is the order the risk groups run in, from most risky to least. Under 25s are more likely to have an accident, so when you hit that age your insurance drops like mad. Unfair? Maybe. Realistic? Yup. Hope that helped people, Susan ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Help me Jebus!" --Homer Simpson "Shame on you! Ugly baby judges you!" --Ross Geller "Oh yeah, and did I mention I've got a baby?" --Stuart Alan Jones "You know, I telephoned my grandparents the other day, and my grandfather said to me, 'We saw your movie.' 'Which one?' I said, and he shouted, 'Betty, what was the name of that movie I didn't like?'" --Brad Pitt [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 12:52:40 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:52:40 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <3F2F1F42.7060006@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Regarding Fred and George, Percy couldn't tame them, either, so > he must have been a poor prefect, too. > If you recall, nobody (that I saw) insulted Ron for not controlling Fred anf George. He was insulted because he didn't even TRY. It's not the same thing. I don't expect him to make them follow the rules. I'm not sure anyone could. I do expect him to try. That would be his job. bibphile From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Mon Aug 4 23:05:14 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:05:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Snape to be Trusted In-Reply-To: <68D2CF07-C272-11D7-B0AC-0003939A0BA2@rcbooks.org> References: <68D2CF07-C272-11D7-B0AC-0003939A0BA2@rcbooks.org> Message-ID: <3F2EE6AA.7070609@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75458 Random wrote: >>Snape should understand that Occlumency is weakening his mind instead >>of doing the opposite, and still throws him out after Harry's pensieve >>experience. > > > perhaps he throws him out BECAUSE of it - he doesn't want to weaken his > mind any further. Oh, that's a beautiful theory. Dumbledore forces Snape to give Harry these lessons. Snape realizes that they do not help at all - Harry's connection to Voldie is something other than Legilimency. But arguing with Dumbledore is fruitless. So he creates this situation to achieve what he wanted - the end of the lessons. The only trouble is I don't believe he wanted Harry to see his memories, no way. Irene From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 5 13:13:00 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:13:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coming Of Age References: Message-ID: <000a01c35b53$4d176d60$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75459 From: Susan Atherton <<<> They may be others that I've forgotten, and unless they've changed the rules when I haven't been looking, there is no age of consent on female homosexual intercourse because Queen Victoria didn't believe women would do that and didn't make it legal or illegal when the legislation was written. (Makes you wonder what old Albert was like in the sack, really.) _______ She was actually supposed to have asked the Ministers who brought the Bill for her perusal to explain how it was possible, and rather than try to explain it, they removed it. (Dawn) _______ Everything used to be 21 at one time, then they started bringing things down in dribs and drabs until the only things left at 21 are things people don't want to do until they're 21 anyway<>>> Susan _______________ Actually, 21 was the MINIMUM age of majority for possession of property (and with it the ability to vote or enter Parliment), inheritence and the end of Parental Responsibilty until the Victorian Era. Most other things weren't regulated. The Victorians were the 'great' legislators, bringing in a legal age of consent (there wasn't one before then), child employment laws, voting was extended to all MEN aged over 21, Licensing and alcohol laws regulating the sale, age limits and hours of purchase, as well as thousands of other things. You can start working limited hours (there are other restrictions too) at age 13 with permission from both a parent and the local Education Authority (this reflects the old minimum school leaving age, which was changed while my father was still at school), and can be issued with a NI No. at that time. Come to think of it, the Ministry of Magic resembles the early Victorian Parliament, etc., more than the modern one, except for the presence of women. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 13:38:18 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:38:18 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > I believe Ron is a perfect candidate for the Imperious Curse. Arya: I completely agree. I felt this was a likely future plot line after we hear in GoF about Ron 'stil skipping every few steps' after a DADA class where he was told to skip around the room under Crouch/Moody's imperius. To me, that says he has very little natural ability to fight the curse or mind control in general. Now me: Ron is also very susceptible to the veela, which must have a connection to the imperius curse because they have the same effect (on men anyway). I'm sure this is in a Fantastic Post somewhere, how the veela cause the same floating, care-free sensation, and that's why Harry refers to the Imperius curse in the graveyard scene in GOF as the "third time" he felt the sensation, one being in the veela, one in Moody's class before he learned to fight it. Yes, Ron is being portrayed as a great guy and friend, and I don't believe he'd betray Harry for money or some other intangible. But he's just not advancing as much magically as some of the others in the DADA group, even Neville, and that's worrisome. Of course, even under the Imperius curse, your ability to resist it must correlate to what you're being asked to do. Skipping involuntarily is one thing, but betraying your best friend... I agree he will be put to the test, though. Ariadne From p_yanna at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 13:53:17 2003 From: p_yanna at hotmail.com (frumenta) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:53:17 -0000 Subject: Is Snape to be Trusted In-Reply-To: <3F2EE6AA.7070609@btopenworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75461 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Irene Mikhlin wrote: > > > Random wrote: > > >>Snape should understand that Occlumency is weakening his mind instead > >>of doing the opposite, and still throws him out after Harry's pensieve > >>experience. > > > > > > perhaps he throws him out BECAUSE of it - he doesn't want to weaken his > > mind any further. > > Oh, that's a beautiful theory. > Dumbledore forces Snape to give Harry these lessons. Snape realizes that > they do not help at all - Harry's connection to Voldie is something > other than Legilimency. But arguing with Dumbledore is fruitless. > So he creates this situation to achieve what he wanted - the end of the > lessons. The only trouble is I don't believe he wanted Harry to see his > memories, no way. > > Irene Even though I don't usually subscribe to "noble Snape" theories, (I love him as a spiteful git, thank you), I could sort of see him doing that even though it would mean such embarrassment to him. Perhaps although Snape was mortified at the thought of Harry finding all that about him, he sacrificed his own feelings for the greater good. The other problem was to what extend we can say he *created* the situation. Letting Harry see him take out his memories? Yes. But as for eaving the pensieve unattended, he didn't create that situation (Montague ending up in a toilet) it just happened. We could say that he saw an opportunity and grabbed it... I still don't understand why he didn't just toss Harry outside and lock the door as he was leaving... Mim From kewiromeo at aol.com Tue Aug 5 13:53:48 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 09:53:48 -0400 Subject: Harry Living to be Harry Message-ID: <1D7A26AC.08186926.0250B10A@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75462 Harry is a strange polar character. In PS/SS, his greatest ambition was to live up to the name that everyone has thought him to be. Now, the only thing he wanted in OOtP was that everyone would stop thinking of him some attentionworthy teenager. They dicredited him from the articles of Rita Skeeter. We will probably see her later in the books. She is pretty useful, I think she will go back to writing, it might not be all bad. Once people know that Harry is telling the truth, he despises it. I myself am like that, I don't want to have the attention on me, but I don't want people thinking that I am the one thinking so highly of myself. Harry doesn't have a good outlet for his frustration. Hiding in Privet Drive, sending encrypted messages with Hedwig, sitting in bushes trying to listen to the news. It's just been making things worse year after year. Now, he has no family at all, only the Order members who are looking out for him. For the most part, Harry doesn't want to be himself. One of his happy moments was "I'm going to Hogwarts and I'm going to leave the Dursleys." Now, at times it's as if he never wanted to get that letter. Why does he have to be Harry Potter? It would have been much more relaxing to have been Neville Longbottom. (On a side note, Neville has a whole lot of family, Harry has none. This must be an issue with the Prophesy, as to why Harry and not Neville was attacked). He said it himself in GoF, what he wouldn't give to be sitting in the stands cheering Cedric along with the rest of the school. Why would be want to go through all this? Hermoine was a little forward with saying he has a "saving people" thing. Well damned if he ever wanted to save anyone, get put in that situation, half the time he himself doesn't want to be alive. Dumbledore keeps saying that he has put up a battle agaist Voldermort that most Adult wizards never have to go through, or he has shouldered an adults battle and found himself even, blah blah blah. He has defied Voldermort 4 times already, and I believe that to most people this would cause severe psychological stress, and I wouldn't be surprised if he needed a Calming Draft 4 times a day the next year, and have Strengthening Potions to get him out of bed in the morning. Tzvi of Brooklyn From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 05:00:09 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 05:00:09 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > GEO: > The guy has red eyes I think anyone smart enough would have known it > was Voldemort. Who cares if he is recognized? First of all everyone thinks he's dead. And anyone who did recognize him would run away screaming. If anyone reported seeing him he would be dismissed as a lunatic. Olaf, glad and big From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Aug 5 11:16:43 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 06:16:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Cho References: Message-ID: <3F2F921B.6070801@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75464 Lorena wrote: > Harry has always liked Cho, right? Since her mention in the 3rd. > book, but in the last book things haven't been what he was expected > to, they go out and he gets his first kiss, but things will always be > a mess because she just end up crying about Cedric. > I just wanted to say I'm so happy of what the book says when they're > back in the Howgarts express, when Harry finds out, that Cho, was now > dating ex-Ginny boyfriend, and it says it doesn't hurt him, so > that's supposed to mean that he's not interested in her anymore?? > I hope so, hahaha, because I think Ginny or Hermione will be better > for him. > I'm placing my bets on Luna Lovegood as Harry's next date. He is starting to see her as a person by the end of the book and getting an understanding of her, realizing shes not as mad as she seems. I think however he has a fatal attraction for Ravenclaw girls. (grin) Ron will end up with Hermione or Ron will have jealous fits everytime Hermione even mentions another guy. Its clear Ron wants her, but has no idea how to tell her. I don't think Ginny wants Harry. She might connect him with too many bad memories about Tom Riddle. While Luna might not be a long term thing, I think Harry will at least date her. I think his long term female partner is someone we have not seen yet, since none of the current ones are a good match for someone with the kind of emotional baggage Harry has. Though Luna could deal with the baggage with ease, he might not be able to deal with her 'weirdness' long term. Or his friends would drive them apart because they don't understand her. Jazmyn From steffy07 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 14:10:49 2003 From: steffy07 at aol.com (steffy07) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:10:49 -0000 Subject: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75467 As for all four of MWPP being in different houses, and Lupin being in Ravenclaw, in POA, when Lupin is giving Harry dementer lessons, he brings butterbeer for Harry and says "To a Gryffindor vicotry" (against Ravenclaw). I doubt that he would drink to a victory against his own old house. Plus, in OOTP, Lupin says that he was given the Prefect badge so he could have some influence over his friends. It implies that he chosen for the badge OVER his friends so he could exert influence over them. As only one of them can chosen from each house, I belive that they were all in the same house. Plus, I don't think Sirius needed the others influence to know that his family was crazy for their pureblood mania, James just gave Sirius a place to stay afte he officially left home for good. Stephanie From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 13:30:56 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:30:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nancyellenbell" wrote: > I will be very disappointed if Harry ends up with Cho. Harry needs to be with > someone who is his equal, like Ginny. WIth Cho, it's all about Cho. Honestly, I > wanted to slap her whiny little face when she kept pulling all the drama queen stunts. > Blech. I don't believe Cho will be with anyone really for a while, least of all Harry. Since Harry is unwilling to give up Hermione. She went with Harry so she could get infomation about Cedrick's death and maybe also because she had some feelings for Harry. Cho will have to do some serious healing before she is ready for a real relationship with anyone. At this point I believe any person she is with is just filler, someone to fill an empty space. Harry might have been the exception to this rule though, but he is not biting anymore. From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 5 13:43:14 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:43:14 -0000 Subject: Is Lily Voldemort daughter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75469 Is Lilly really muggle born? I'm convinced of the Lilly is related to the Heir of Slytherin through LV theory. What else can be done with all the green eye references? Green being so strongly associated with Slytherin. Weak I know but read on: OK, we do have overwhelming evidence that Lily was muggle born as both LV (as Tom Riddle) in CoS and Snape in OotP called her a mudblood. We also know that Lilly has to the sister (or blood related to Petunia) in order for her special protection to work while Harry is in their house in Privet Dr. So where can the connection be? I propose Lilly is only the half sister to Petunia. They share the same mother but have different fathers. Lilly's mum met and married Mr. Evans when she was pregnant (or Lilly was a just a baby). Mr. Evans adopted Lilly as his own. This preserves the blood connection to Petunia, and lets everyone believe Lily is muggle born and allows her to be the daughter of LV. I've believe Harry to have been the true Heir of Slytherin since CoS. There is nothing to say the Chamber didn't open in Harry's first year at Hogwarts but as he knew nothing about it lay dormant and quite until someone (LV as Tom Riddle through Ginny) got in there to awake the Basilisk. It is also possible for Harry can be the Heir of Slytherin and "a true Gryffinor" as we know one can be born to a 'bad' family and yet be good, as with Sirius'. Or, born into a good family and be rotten egg, as with Percy. One last thought. The sorting hat's new song sang about uniting the houses of Hogwarts or the school would fall. Hermione can see this coming and has suggested they do something about it in OofP but Harry and Ron laughed at her stating that Gryffindors and Slytherins would never get along. If that is true Hogwarts is doomed. Uniting the Heir of Slytherin and Gryffindor in Harry may be Hogwarts only way out. From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 5 13:58:39 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:58:39 -0000 Subject: Ron and the Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75470 ..... Ron is being portrayed as a great guy and friend, and I don't believe he'd betray Harry for money or some other intangible. But he's just not advancing as much magically as some of the others in the DADA group, even Neville, and that's worrisome. Of course, even under the Imperius curse, your ability to resist it must correlate to what you're being asked to do. Skipping involuntarily is one thing, but betraying your best friend... I agree he will be put to the test, though. Ariadne My rsponse: Unless love is thrown into the mix. Love has caused great tradgedy in the past and why not in Harry Potter's world. Ron's a great friend and believes he would never betray Harry....BUT we know he's in love with Hermione and she's not in love with him. All Ron need's is the belief, true or not that Harry and Hermione are in love and tragedy is sure to follow. Mandy From music4masses at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 14:36:14 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (music4masses) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 10:36:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Lupin can't be evil! In-Reply-To: References: <20030804213934.94406.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805102254.03578d30@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75471 At 08:53 PM 8/4/2003, you wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black > wrote: >Sorry, but the impostor Moody uses Voldemort's name. > >JKR also obviously doesn't buy the theory that victims of >prejudice or evil can't be prejudiced or evil themselves. The >centaurs, the giants and the goblins are all shown to be victims >of prejudice, and yet they are all shown either attacking wizards >unjustly or considering whether to join Voldemort. > >Pippin I think being the victim of prejudice is a definite aspect of Lupin's character and personality, but, unlike the centaurs, he doesn't show prejudice back. It's clear that giants et al. are capable of bigotry. There is nothing in the text that indicates Lupin is himself prejudiced. Quite the contrary. He's very respectful, even to Snape, and encourages it in Harry. Furthermore, it is important that Lupin has an affliction that he must live with. Rowling has even talked about that, especially in the context of her mother who has MS. My aunt has MS. It's a terrible struggle. Lupin seems to represent that. Then, there's plot reasons why it doesn't jive that he's evil. Why didn't he sabotage Harry's rescue at the beginning? He was perfectly positioned to do so. Why did he jump between Malfoy and Harry/Neville during the "battle" scene? He could've been hurt. He then saved Harry from crossing the Veil. Then there's the all too real reaction to Sirius's death. That was the opposite of contrived. Misguided and weak at times? Yes. Evil? Sure doesn't seem so. There's a ton of arguments I'm leaving out. Just a bit of backup to Melanie, who went out on a limb. Erin From atalante at poczta.onet.pl Tue Aug 5 14:45:34 2003 From: atalante at poczta.onet.pl (portrait_of_mrs_black) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:45:34 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Favorite Lines or Last Lines In-Reply-To: <110.2643672a.2c5d93dc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/2/2003 12:02:35 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > arrowsmithbt at b... writes: > > > A better bet is to try and imagine what his last line would have been (if > > he'd had > > time), when he fell through the curtain. > > > > How about: > > > > Wait till my public hears about this! > > > > ...as I face the final curtain...I did it my way! > > > > Why didn't that dumb kid use the damn mirror? > > "Oops!" > > "That's what I get for being a misogynist." (Something I've always felt > about Sirius - he patronizes women.) > > "Some days, it just doesn't pay to get outta bed." > > "I shoulda listened..." > > Sherrie "I will always love you, Buckbeak!" "Oh, well, better Bellatrix than Kreacher..." "Say good-bye to my mum from me, will you?" "What?? Gary Oldman?? Nooooooooooooo..." From scooting2win at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 14:51:15 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:51:15 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Just curious, but what happens to Grimmauld Place now? Who inherits? Chances are good Harry will inherit it, but that as everything else in the books is quite uncertain. The only thing we do know is that Kreacher can't give out the location of it, because Dumbledore is secret Keeper. and Since I am on that, I am going to add to this just a little. If Peter was secret-keeper for the Potters, and Dumbledore and Hagrid both went to the house after Voldemort killed James and Lily, who told Dumbledore and Hagrid where to go, does death cancel the "secret". But if it doesn't Peter would have had to tell DD and Hagrid where to go to collect Harry. Now I am under the impression that the only people we know for sure Peter told was Voldemort and Sirius since Sirius went to the house to check on the Potters. So how did Dumbledore know where to go? If Peter told him where the house was, well then Sirius won't have spent all those years in Azkaban, now would he? Lori From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 14:58:43 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <3F2F1F42.7060006@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: <20030805145843.15729.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75474 --- "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > If we are going to stick strictly to the book, there > is no solid > evidence that I can recall that any of the above > violates any > rules. 'Midget', might, for all we know, be the > accepted term > for first-years, analogous to 'plebe' at Annapolis. > Just because > Hermione doesn't like it doesn't mean it violates a > rule. Again, > we have never been shown a rule that Fred and George > were > violating. Ditto with the brain-boosting products. I never said anything about him calling them midgets. It's the forgetting to show them to their dorms I was calling him on. I'm sorry, but if what Fred and George were doing by testing the fainting things one the first years wasn't against the rules, it should have been. The first years didn't know what the effect of them was. I can't say anything for the later ones, as the first years seemed to know what was going on then. It was implied that the brain boosting stuff was against the rules, if not stated. > > Regarding Fred and George, Percy couldn't tame them, > either, so > he must have been a poor prefect, too. > Nope. As I've said time and time again, it's making the attempt that counts. It's one thing to be unable to do something; there's no shame in that. But to not try to do your job? That's different. > Furthermore, in the last two items, Ron was merely > tempted. > Since when does resisting a temptation disqualify > one from any > office? Anybody, even the weakest person, can stick > to the > straight and narrow when not tempted to stray; but > to do the > right thing when one is actually tempted to do > otherwise takes > real strength. Compare Twain's "Man that Corrupted > Hadleyburg." > I didn't bring up the firewhiskey. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Aug 5 15:12:58 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:12:58 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: <3F2F921B.6070801@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote:> > > > > I'm placing my bets on Luna Lovegood as Harry's next date. He is > starting to see her as a person by the end of the book and getting an > understanding of her, realizing shes not as mad as she seems. I think > however he has a fatal attraction for Ravenclaw girls. (grin) > > Ron will end up with Hermione or Ron will have jealous fits everytime > Hermione even mentions another guy. Its clear Ron wants her, but has no > idea how to tell her. > > I don't think Ginny wants Harry. She might connect him with too many > bad memories about Tom Riddle. > > While Luna might not be a long term thing, I think Harry will at least > date her. I think his long term female partner is someone we have not > seen yet, since none of the current ones are a good match for someone > with the kind of emotional baggage Harry has. Though Luna could deal > with the baggage with ease, he might not be able to deal with her > 'weirdness' long term. Or his friends would drive them apart because > they don't understand her. > > Jazmyn This may be antithetical to the rigorous shipping that goes on around here, but I am wondering if Harry is going to have a chance to be normal enough to have a girlfriend. After all, at the end of OOP, he's just been told (as far as he understands) it's either him or LV. That's changed him. He's a universe away from the kinds of things teenagers concern themselves with. I surely hope he has a chance to pursue a normal life but I wouldn't be surprised if romance got overshadowed in the final two books. Jennifer From original_gt at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 15:19:20 2003 From: original_gt at yahoo.com (flying_meese) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:19:20 -0000 Subject: Why Lupin can't be evil! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805102254.03578d30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, music4masses wrote: SNIP > Then, there's plot reasons why it doesn't jive that he's evil. Why didn't > he sabotage Harry's rescue at the beginning? He was perfectly positioned to > do so. Why did he jump between Malfoy and Harry/Neville during the "battle" > scene? He could've been hurt. He then saved Harry from crossing the Veil. > Then there's the all too real reaction to Sirius's death. That was the > opposite of contrived. Misguided and weak at times? Yes. Evil? Sure doesn't > seem so. > > There's a ton of arguments I'm leaving out. Just a bit of backup to > Melanie, who went out on a limb. > > Erin One reason I haven't bought into the Evil Lupin theories is JKR stating that Lupin is one of her favorite characters. My feeling is that when she says this she means she likes Lupin for who he is not because he's fun to write like nasty characters can be. (i.e Snape) I can't imagine JKR thinking so highly of a traitor especially when those he betrayed were some of the few people who accepted him for who he is. FM From scooting2win at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 15:19:41 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:19:41 -0000 Subject: Names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75477 I seen some post about names, and it's making me wonder, Lord Voldemort took his name from "his name". now what if there is a spell that can be made out of his name that can defeat him. Now I know this is pulling it out my, hem, hem. but jsut think about it, L o r d v o l d e m o r t - Loved , loved what, loved who, what is it! love .... anyone know Latin? I don't. there is something there. going to snap it in my laptop later and see what the latin dictionary comes up with. bet it's something good. any thoughts on this, someone want to beat me to the draw. Lori From jdq53562 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 15:51:04 2003 From: jdq53562 at aol.com (Arya) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:51:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Reward, Was1000 Galleon reward for DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75478 SNIP > > As a side note: there is a G10,000 reward for Sirius. I wonder how > that will play out? Perhaps, under the circumstance, people on both > side will thinks it's best just to forget about it. For reference: > G10,000 is about us$75,000. A tidy sum. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn But here is the problem on that, The only people who know Sirius was there are the sutdents and Order members who cannot really say they were hanging out with a wanted escaped convict and the Death Eaters who probably really don't care about the truth at the moment whereever they are. If the DE did say something abouit, why would they? I doubt their word is worth much and besides, the Order may find it to their advantage to have it believed he is still out there because it would mean Kingsley is again free to spend all his time working for the ORder while only appearing to search for Sirius. Ok, so even if word is out that Sirius Black was at the DoM with everyone and that he went through the veil, unfortunaltey, there is no proof on that whatsoever, and as far as we know, there will never be a body--dead or alive to confirm to the Ministry that Sirius Black is no longer roaming free. So, in conclusion, I have to say there will be no reward money paid out for the "death" of Sirius. Arya From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 5 15:55:56 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:55:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Name Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75479 In a message dated 8/4/2003 7:06:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, tania_schr at hotmail.com writes: > I think you are pronouncing it right if you are reading in English. > That is how everyone I know (including myself) pronounces it. I > have several friends reading the books in Spanish, and like all > words in Spanish, every vowel is pronounced so it sounds a little > more like "serious". SEER-ee-us is the correct pronunciation. If you check out the Scholastic website, they have a LOVELY audio pronunciation guide. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 15:57:16 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:57:16 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75480 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: This may be antithetical to the rigorous shipping that goes on around > here, but I am wondering if Harry is going to have a chance to be > normal enough to have a girlfriend. After all, at the end of OOP, > he's just been told (as far as he understands) it's either him or > LV. That's changed him. He's a universe away from the kinds of > things teenagers concern themselves with. I surely hope he has a > chance to pursue a normal life but I wouldn't be surprised if romance got overshadowed in the final two books. Jennifer I'm wondering about the same thing. At the end of OOTP when Harry sees Cho again and Hermione tells him Cho is seeing someone else, "Harry was surprised to find that this information did not hurt at all. Wanting to impress Cho seemed to belong to a past that was no longer quite connected with him. So much of what he wanted before Sirius's death felt that way these days..." Maybe he's having a grief reaction, or maybe it's really sinking in that his life is going to be about many other things besides a girlfriend. This may tie into why so many of the members of OOTP are single--fighting dark wizards doesn't leave much time for romance, or maybe they had romances at one time, but these relationships were destroyed by Voldemort and the DE's. The atmosphere of death and destruction they bring makes it very risky to love and risk putting your family in danger. I do think Ginny is going to play a key role in his life, if not as his romantic partner, then as one of his strategic partners in battle. Ariadne From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 5 15:59:48 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:59:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius, Voldemort, and Firenze pronunciations Message-ID: <149.166c3154.2c612e74@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75481 In a message dated 8/4/2003 8:24:55 PM Pacific Daylight Time, linlou43 at yahoo.com writes: > The guide does not give Voldemort. It > just uses "he-who-must-not-be-named". LOL - actually, if you click it a second time, it then says "You-Know-Who". A third click brings the pronunciation of the name. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 16:35:01 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:35:01 -0000 Subject: V's doing to Cho, pre and post (was: Re: Harry and Cho (why should it?)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lorena" > wrote: > > Harry has always liked Cho, right? Since her mention in the 3rd. > > book, but in the last book things haven't been what he was expected > > to, they go out and he gets his first kiss, but things will always > be a mess because she just end up crying about Cedric. > > Sure Cho behaves bizarely throughout the book Lots of people for month have been saying what a whiny high maintenance, upset, nothing but trouble g/f Cho is in OOP. To me, it seemed thus: she was portrayed as the only one acting respectful and cool in GOF when others shunned Harry or her friends giggled; she was a good seeker in POA. When I saw her crying from the end of GOF to most of OOP, and her and Harry's being upset by the situation they ended up in, I thought, "and this is all Voldemort's doing. What a pity." A.J. From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 16:39:28 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:39:28 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75483 > L o r d v o l d e m o r t - Loved , loved what, loved who, what is > it! well, here is every anagram for Lord Voldemort: http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Lord+Voldemort More interesting (?) combinations actually come from Neville's name: http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi? anagram=Neville+Longbottom And if I knew his middle name, it might be more relevant, but I don't have a book handy. I haven't been able to pour over the list long enough to see if something useful comes from it, but you're all free to use the link to come to your own conclusions! ^v^Blyx^v^ From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 03:44:12 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:44:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's mistakes References: Message-ID: <3F2F280C.4050508@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75484 greatelderone wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" > wrote: > >>Telling him would have, among other things, played right into >>Voldemort's plans by making Harry curious about the prophecy (if >>he was only told of its existence) and tempting him to go after >>it, or by risking Voldemort extracting it from Harry's mind (if >>he was told the content). > > > But if he had told Harry everything immediately then Harry woud have > started occlumency and probably would have worked harder at it if he > knew that Voldemort was going to use him as his spy and then > Voldemort wouldn't have possibly extracted the information from > Harry's head since he would never have noticed Harry in his head in > the first place If he had told Harry everything, Harry would probably have run right to the ministry to find the prophecy, just as Malfoy said Voldemort expected him to. Even if he didn't, it would take time for Harry to become proficient at occlumancy, even if he worked at it, and during that time the secret would be compromised. >>Since when is that Dumbledore's responsibility? Sirius is a big >>boy, and should be able to look after himself. > > Dumbledore is the leader of the troops. I think one of his > responsibilities is to maintain morales. Besides Sirius didn't > exactly grow up since he has spent the last decade or so in jail or > as a dog which hasn't exactly helped his mental state. That's the chaplain's job, not the commanding officer's (although I don't think the military analogy is really appropriate here). From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 03:10:50 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:10:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges References: Message-ID: <3F2F203A.7000209@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75485 scooting2win wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > >> Imagine this: >>> >>>Hermione: Harry, you just drank an entire keg of beer. Give me >>>your keys. >>> >>>Ron: Stop bugging Harry, Hermione; he can make his own decisions. >>> >>>Which is the better friend? >> >>What kind of beer? Watney's Red Barrel. > And what is he driving his firebolt or a trestal? An enchanted Ford Anglia, of course. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 03:51:29 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2003 23:51:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's mistakes References: Message-ID: <3F2F29C1.9040309@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75486 Steve wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: >>Richelle Votaw wrote: >> > >> > 1) Not telling Harry about the prophecy to begin with. A >> > mistake? Maybe. May also have been a mistake to tell an >> > eleven year old ... > >>T.M.: >>Telling him would have, among other things, played right into >>Voldemort's plans by making Harry curious ...edited... > > bboy_mn: > > This is going to sound odd at first, but Dumbledore's mistake was not > 'telling Harry' or not 'telling Harry', it was taking an all or > nothing approach. See, I told you it was odd. > > The logical and safest and least tempting toward mischief would have > been to use a graduated approach. Again another odd one, he should > have told Harry the whole truth from the beginning, just not ALL of > the whole truth. Is any of this making sense? > > In the beginning, he should have told Harry a generalized version of > the whole truth, or to look at it another way, a superficial version > of the whole truth. Then as each year went by and Harry became more > mature, Dumbledore should have fleshed it out with a few more details. > That way Harry would have alway had some idea of what was going on, > but at the same time, he wouldn't have had to know the full exteme > meaning. > > So, I guess you could call that a layered approach; each year adding > another layer of details to the basic truth. He could have done that, in fact, he did do something like that. But it isn't clear that had he given more detail earlier things would have worked out better. Harry was not in the mood to believe anything anyone told him that he didn't want to believe. Phineas's description of Harry's attitude was 100% accurate. >> > 3) Seemingly not noticing (or not doing anything about it) >> > that Sirius was rapidly deteriorating while basically kept >> > caged. > >>Since when is that Dumbledore's responsibility? ... > > Since when is it any friends responsibility to notice when a friend is > sinking into dispare, especially, when you as a friend are > contributing to that dispare (obvious hint of sarcasm)? Then it was Lupin's responsibility, not Dumbledore's; there is no reason to assume any special friendship between Dumbledore and Sirius. > We can all look back and say he should have done this or he should > have done that, but that is the luxury of hindsight on our part. On > the other hand, we would like to think that Dumbledore has some gift > of foresight, but sadly, by his own admission, he dropped the ball on > this one. I'm not sure that he was being entirely candid when he said that; he may have been assuming some of the blame that should have belonged to Harry in order to make Harry feel better, or at least less bad. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 04:52:03 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 00:52:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Transfiguration References: Message-ID: <3F2F37F3.5000406@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75487 bibphile wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" > wrote: > In CoS Hermione describes the Mandrake as such: "It is used to > return people who have been transfigured or cursed to their original > state." Of course, it was used for those who were petrified (uh, is > that a form of transfiguration?) Hmmm....you may have something > there. Can people be transfigured again their will? Neville's toad > comes to mind. Oooh, the possibilities!! > > What I'm wondering is why they need a Mandrake when they've been > tranfigured. McGonagall fixed Draco quite easily. Just because mandrake is used to return transfigured people does not mean that *only* mandrake is used to return them. "Aspirin is used to relieve pain" does not mean that acetominephen and ibuprofin are not also used. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 07:52:28 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:52:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prophecy question References: Message-ID: <3F2F623C.4090705@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75488 lewa8978 wrote: > > Harry's vision that took him to the MoM was of V trying to get Siruis > to take down the prophecy, and Siruis refusing. > > When Harry asks Malfoy Sr. what the prophecy is, he seems surprised > that Harry doesn't know. I think he even says that that explains why > he (Harry) hadn't been to the ministry sooner. > > So.... if V didn't know Harry didn't know what the prophecy was, then > V didn't know that Harry didn't know that only the people in the > prophecy could take it down. Then V didn't know that Harry wouldn't > know that an attempt to fake it would work. > > Confusing??? V wouldn't think to use Siruis as a decoy of he thought > that Harry would know that Sirius wasn't in the prophecy and > therefore couldn't take it down. But he did use Siruis, without > knowing that Harry was ignorant of this stipulation. If Harry did know that only the subject of the prophecy could retrieve it, then he would think that Sirius was in even more danger. If he refused to take it, Voldemort would torture him, and if he did take it, he would be injured by the protective spell. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 08:03:43 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 04:03:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Christian names References: Message-ID: <3F2F64DF.6040809@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75489 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > wrote: >>(gets book):Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore > > Ah, but Brian makes me think of King Brian of Knocknasheega, the > king of the leprechauns in "Darby O'Gill and the Little People"! Or Brian Boru. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 16:42:11 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:42:11 -0000 Subject: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I definitely see a love triangle in the works for HRH. I believe John Granger, who wrote _The Hidden Key to Harry Potter_, suspects such in the future because of the historical connotations behind Hermione's name. A.J. From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 5 14:14:03 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:14:03 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75491 > Just curious, but what happens to Grimmauld Place now? Who inherits? My responce: Depends on if Sirius left a will. If not, it goes to the next living relative, which has to be one of the Sister's Black. Either, Bellatrix Black Lestrange, Narcissa Black Malfory or Andromeda Black Tonks. Who is the eldest of the sisters Black we don't know. We could base their age on their children: 1st Andromeda as she has a 20 year old daughter, Tonks. 2nd Narcissa as she has a 15 year old son, Draco. 3rd Bellatrix no kids (what a thought!) But this is pure speculation. Also there is the thought that Andromena is dead as Sirius refers to her in the past tense. But we have no proof of that. Wouldn't it be fun if Sirius leaves a Will stating Harry is the inheritor, but the Malfoys contest it not wanting Grimmauld Place to leave the Black family. I'd love to see Harry vs. Lucius go at it in court. Except it would legally be Harry vs. Narcissa. But that's ok too as I don't know about any one else but I'm dying for more info on any of the Sisters Black. From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 15:31:53 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:31:53 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Just curious, but what happens to Grimmauld Place now? Who inherits? If the heir is someone who's already been named in the books, the only candidate is . . . Draco Malfoy! The house is almost certainly "entailed": some old Black's will left it, on condition that it not leave the family. The usual conditions are that it go to the closest male relative by blood. The Blacks may have insisted on closest "pure blood". Despite Sirius's mother's dislike for him, he inherited the house. His mother wiped him from the tapestry. That she did not disinherit him may mean she could not. He would probably have inherited on his father's death. His mother continued there because a) Sirius didn't want to live at Grimmauld place and b) other lodgings were being provided for him at Government expense. Entailment is popular in Victorian novels, where distant cousins are always inheriting, or distant uncles dying and leaving fortunes. In the prologue to the Canterbury tales, the Sergeant of the Law is skilled in getting property out from under such restrictions. It's old, in life and in books. Sirius is the "last of the Blacks." His brother is dead. For cousins the tapestry shows Bellatrix, [Andromeda], and Narcissa, probably in order of age and therefore precedence. The tapestry shows no descendants, male or otherwise, for Bellatrix, who might in any event be disbarred from inheriting from Sirius because she killed him. No children are mentioned for Andromeda, but marrying a Muggle-born may have disqualified her heirs under the entailment. After all, "Always Pure" is embroidered at the at the top of the family tree tapestry. A real-world example is that when the grandson of the last emperor of Brazil married not a princess but a simple countess, his mother Princess Isabel made him sign a document abdicating all right to the throne for him and all his descendents. If real royalty can insist on royal blood to inherit, "almost royal" Blacks can certainly insist on pure blood. That leaves Narcissa, who has one male descendant, Draco Malfoy. Draco inherits. - Caipora From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Aug 5 17:05:41 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:05:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Names References: Message-ID: <004a01c35b73$d1835e40$4a9ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75494 ^v^Blyx^v^ wrote: > well, here is every anagram for Lord Voldemort: > http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Lord+Voldemort Well, there are a couple of possibilities. 1) Toddler Vol Mor. Harry sticks him into the time thing and he becomes a baby. And since Hermione said you can't kill a baby, Harry can't kill him. He'll just have to be raised properly I suppose. And since Voldemort's now a toddler he can't say "Voldemort" properly, it just comes out "Vol Mor." Make sense? No? :) 2) Old Lord Rev Tom. Voldemort is converted to Christianity and becomes a minister. Therefore the "Old Lord" becomes "Rev. Tom." Get it? Oh, this is fun. > More interesting (?) combinations actually come from Neville's name: > http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi? > anagram=Neville+Longbottom Hmm, there's an interesting one. "Be telling Vol Tom no." I wonder what he's telling Vol/Tom no to? > And if I knew his middle name, it might be more relevant, but I > don't have a book handy. We don't know Neville's middle name. We know nearly no one's middle name, except Harry and the others at his hearing. Which is highly annoying to me, as I'm working on an Arithmancy thing and it would be quite nice to know full names. But I've had to make do without them. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 17:10:38 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:10:38 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75495 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Just curious, but what happens to Grimmauld Place now? Who > inherits? My responce: Depends on if Sirius left a will. If not, it goes to the next living relative, which has to be one of the Sister's Black. Either, Bellatrix Black Lestrange, Narcissa Black Malfory or Andromeda Black Tonks > Who is the eldest of the sisters Black we don't know. > We could base their age on their children: > 1st Andromeda as she has a 20 year old daughter, Tonks. > 2nd Narcissa as she has a 15 year old son, Draco. > 3rd Bellatrix no kids (what a thought!) > But this is pure speculation. My thoughts: I believe in genealogy tables, children are listed left to right by oldest to youngest. Andromeda's burn mark on the tapestry was between Bellatrix and Narcissa. It says, "He (Sirius) pointed to a small burn mark between two names, Bellatix and Narcissa." Assuming Sirius was reading left to right, then Bellatrix would be the oldest. I guess we can assume since she's an escaped convict at the moment, she won't try to lay claim to Grimmauld! So, then I suppose it would revert to Narcissa, if Andromeda is gone. Ariadne From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 17:16:05 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:16:05 -0000 Subject: Is Lily Voldemort daughter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75496 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Is Lilly really muggle born? I'm convinced of the Lilly is related to > the Heir of Slytherin through LV theory. What else can be done with > all the green eye references? Green being so strongly associated > with Slytherin. Weak I know but read on: > > OK, we do have overwhelming evidence that Lily was muggle born as > both LV (as Tom Riddle) in CoS and Snape in OotP called her a > mudblood. We also know that Lilly has to the sister (or blood related > to Petunia) in order for her special protection to work while Harry > is in their house in Privet Dr. So where can the connection be? > > I propose Lilly is only the half sister to Petunia. They share the > same mother but have different fathers. Lilly's mum met and married > Mr. Evans when she was pregnant (or Lilly was a just a baby). Mr. > Evans adopted Lilly as his own. This preserves the blood connection > to Petunia, and lets everyone believe Lily is muggle born and allows > her to be the daughter of LV. > > I've believe Harry to have been the true Heir of Slytherin since > CoS. There is nothing to say the Chamber didn't open in Harry's > first year at Hogwarts but as he knew nothing about it lay dormant > and quite until someone (LV as Tom Riddle through Ginny) got in there > to awake the Basilisk. It is also possible for Harry can be the Heir > of Slytherin and "a true Gryffinor" as we know one can be born to > a 'bad' family and yet be good, as with Sirius'. Or, born into a > good family and be rotten egg, as with Percy. > > One last thought. The sorting hat's new song sang about uniting the > houses of Hogwarts or the school would fall. Hermione can see this > coming and has suggested they do something about it in OofP but Harry > and Ron laughed at her stating that Gryffindors and Slytherins would > never get along. If that is true Hogwarts is doomed. Uniting the > Heir of Slytherin and Gryffindor in Harry may be Hogwarts only way > out. Sorry but this theroy goes completly agianst canon. DD says in CoS that V is the last remaining heir to slyhterine. And seing as DD knows everything about Harry, he would of told him if his mum was related to lv, or if he was related to slytherine? Garrett From rvotaw at i-55.com Tue Aug 5 17:24:35 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:24:35 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Lily Voldemort daughter? References: Message-ID: <007601c35b76$71681160$4a9ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75497 Garrett wrote: > Sorry but this theroy goes completly agianst canon. DD says in CoS > that V is the last remaining heir to slyhterine. And seing as DD > knows everything about Harry, he would of told him if his mum was > related to lv, or if he was related to slytherine? I do think it's possible that Lily is related to Voldemort. But not his daughter (no matter how exciting and jaw dropping that would be). I think it's more likely there's a relationship on the Muggle side. Through Riddle's dad's family. Lily is by all accounts (JKR's accounts too, not just in the books) a muggle born. Voldemort is a half blood. Suppose Tom Riddle the 1st (Voldemort's muggle father) had a sister. She was a muggle just like he was. Married a muggle named Evans. Had kids named Evans. They had kids too, Lily and Petunia. Which would make Lily Voldemort's second cousin, right? Pure speculation, of course, but just throwing in that it is possible for Lily to be related to Voldemort without going against canon. Just related in a more distant way. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 17:26:25 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:26:25 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75498 I surely hope he has a > chance to pursue a normal life but I wouldn't be surprised if romance > got overshadowed in the final two books. > Jennifer It seemed that in OoP that we saw a major transition from Harry's "normal" wizarding activities to the start of the actual war- - as in, "Its time to put down the toys, the games, and turn to face what you're destined to do." This included quidditch and Cho. I also thought it was quite good of J.K to take something that she could have indudlged in as a sappy love-fest, and instead turned it into something that was a little more real-- kids begenning in the dating scene in school go through a hundred loves, crushes, obsessions, etc. Weekly. To have Cho turn out to be "The One" would have been pathetic at best, and simply unlikely. I think GoF was the one and only "umph" for the dating aspect being near the center of Harry's world... everything now might be fleeting, if at all. Kind of reminds me why they kept Mulder and Scully's relationship from being sexual in the X-Files... I remember Gillian Anderson saying something like, "What were we supposed to do, stop and kiss while chasing after a monster?" Is Harry supposed to stop and date while he is engaged in a war? I think (if he lives) that "love" may come only at the end. I also think that you will see the more romantic aspects from other people in the book. It will be interesting to see how things delevop under stressful circumstances. From rwday at cox.net Tue Aug 5 11:56:24 2003 From: rwday at cox.net (Becky Day) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:56:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c35b48$9b4acf50$6400a8c0@Dadscomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 75499 -----Original Message----- From: jwcpgh [mailto:jwcpgh at yahoo.com] I've seen a number of posts suggesting that each of the Marauders belonged to a different house. There seems to be general agreement that James was a Gryffindor (this is canon)and Remus would have been a Ravenclaw. I can see Peter being a Hufflepuff, but Sirius a Slytherin?. ************* If you look at how separated the Houses seem to be in Harry's time, it seems unlikely to me that James, Sirius, Remus & Peter could have formed such close ties and done so much mischief if they were in separate houses. I don't recall kids from different houses hanging out in each other's common rooms or dormitories, and they don't always have classes together, so when would the Marauders have had time to practice the animagus transformation, or write the Marauder's Map or plan their pranks? The only Marauder who doesn't seem to have that famous Gryffindor courage is Peter, and I'm betting that JKR surprises us on that one. (Remember that Wormtail owes Harry a debt for not letting Sirius and Remus kill him in PoA - I think he'll pay it off by the end of the series). BTW, as this is my first post, I'll briefly introduce myself. I'm 40 years old, female, live in Virginia in the US, and am a librarian and former teacher. Becky [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Tue Aug 5 17:35:23 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:35:23 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place/Entailment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" wrote: > The house is almost certainly "entailed": some old Black's will left > it, on condition that it not leave the family. The usual conditions > are that it go to the closest male relative by blood. The Blacks may > have insisted on closest "pure blood". > > Despite Sirius's mother's dislike for him, he inherited the house. > His mother wiped him from the tapestry. That she did not disinherit > him may mean she could not. > > He would probably have inherited on his father's death. His mother > continued there because a) Sirius didn't want to live at Grimmauld > place and b) other lodgings were being provided for him at Government > expense. > > Entailment is popular in Victorian novels, where distant cousins are > always inheriting, or distant uncles dying and leaving fortunes. In > the prologue to the Canterbury tales, the Sergeant of the Law is > skilled in getting property out from under such restrictions. It's > old, in life and in books. > > Sirius is the "last of the Blacks." His brother is dead. For cousins > the tapestry shows Bellatrix, [Andromeda], and Narcissa, probably in > order of age and therefore precedence. > > The tapestry shows no descendants, male or otherwise, for Bellatrix, > who might in any event be disbarred from inheriting from Sirius > because she killed him. > > No children are mentioned for Andromeda, but marrying a Muggle-born > may have disqualified her heirs under the entailment. After > all, "Always Pure" is embroidered at the at the top of the family > tree tapestry. > > A real-world example is that when the grandson of the last emperor of > Brazil married not a princess but a simple countess, his mother > Princess Isabel made him sign a document abdicating all right to the > throne for him and all his descendents. If real royalty can insist on > royal blood to inherit, "almost royal" Blacks can certainly insist on > pure blood. > > That leaves Narcissa, who has one male descendant, Draco Malfoy. > > Draco inherits. > > - Caipora I like this entailment business. It never made sense to me that Mrs. Black would have left the hallowed halls of the Black house to her despised son if there was some way she could avoid that. Question: Entailment takes precedence over the wills that individuals make, doesnt' it? Correct me if I'm wrong. If that's the case, then even if Sirius left a will, he is prevented by entailment from bequeathing the house to anyone. It would automatically go to the closest male relative. The still-unanswered question to any inheritance is proof of death. Does the Wizard World require some sort of death certificate or other proof that the owner of the property in question is indeed dead, especially, since in Sirius' case, there is no body? IIRC, in the articles that Hermione was reading in the Daily Prophet after the events in the MoM, no mention was made of Sirius' death or that he had even been at the MoM. We have no canon proof that anyone, other than the people who saw what happened, know he's dead. Sure, Dumbledore could have explained everything to Fudge, but, why would Dumbledore's say-so be considered legally binding so that the powers-that-be would move ahead and dispose of Sirius' property? Now, I'm sure Bellatrix can get word to Narcissa that Sirius is dead, and thus, as explained in Caipora's post, Draco inherits. But, again, how does Narcissa prove that Sirius is dead? Marianne From alaskamy at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 17:44:44 2003 From: alaskamy at hotmail.com (kneazelkid) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:44:44 -0000 Subject: Is Lily Voldemort daughter? In-Reply-To: <007601c35b76$71681160$4a9ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75501 Garrett wrote: Sorry but this theroy goes completly agianst canon. DD says in CoS that V is the last remaining heir to slyhterine. And seing as DD knows everything about Harry, he would of told him if his mum was related to lv, or if he was related to slytherine? Richelle wrote: I do think it's possible that Lilly is related to V me (kneazelkid): JK has put an awful lot of emphasis on bloodlines throughout the series. In OotP she was almost jabbing the bloodline idea through our throats with the Black Family tapestry and the protection the Dursley's house has for Harry because of Petunia's "blood". I really think that she's doing this as foreshadowing, i.e. bloodlines are going to be very important in the end. BUT I know that the British culture has a bit more of a hangup on bloodlines than we melting-pot Americans do so perhaps the bloodline thing is just something it's British to mention (Tolkien did the same thing and my friends who have been abroad have mentioned the whole "inherated rank" thing to me). PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong and don't think I mean "All British people think alike." I'm just trying to grasp the cultural differences. kneazelkid -- who loves (almost) all things British From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 5 17:52:15 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:52:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nancyellenbell" > wrote: > > I will be very disappointed if Harry ends up with Cho. Harry needs > to be with > > someone who is his equal, like Ginny. WIth Cho, it's all about > Cho. Honestly, I > > wanted to slap her whiny little face when she kept pulling all the > drama queen stunts. > > Blech. > > Well you're supposed to hate her (or just dislike at her) and think > she's ridiculous. You're supposed to laugh at her as Harry does and > think just what you said. > > But unfortunately I cannot. I imagine loosing one's 17 year old > loving and very kind boyfriend must be hard on a girl. > > But then I have little respect for the stiff upper lip the British so > idolize on a larger cultural basis. Human emotion is natural and so > is grief no matter how unrealistically protrayed and contorted by > Rowling. Who said Cedric was loving and very kind? He was just the 'boyfriend' of a 15/16 year old immature girl. And from my observations, that doesn't mean a great deal. I think it's a big mistake to ascribe adult feelings to kids just past pubescence. Shock that he's gone, yes, confusion, maybe; but recovering from a significant relationship? I don't think so. Kneasy From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 12:44:39 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:44:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pruneau" wrote: > Laura wrote: > > A possible problem with the theory overall is that I'm not sure > that > > making Remus a prefect in Ravenclaw would have much effect on the > > behavior of James and Sirius if they were in different houses. I > > know prefects can take points from any house, but I can't really > see > > Remus doing that to Moony or Padfoot. Being a Gryffindor prefect > > would at least let him keep an eye on them a lot of the time. > > Maybe this was discussed before, sorry if it was, but are you sure > prefects can take points from any house? I thought a prefect could > only take points from his own house. Here's the canon: > 'I know /prefects/ can't dock points, Weasel King', sneered > Malfoy. 'But members of the Inquisitorial Squad -' (OotP, chapter > 28, page 551 Bloomsbury hardback) > > '/You/ don't care about Ginny,' said Ron, whose ears were reddening > now. '/You're/ just worried I'm going to mess up your chances of > being Head Boy.' > 'Five ponts from Gryffindor!' Percy said tersely, fingering his > prefect badge. (CoS, chapter 9, page 119 Bloomsbury paperback) > (emphasis JKR) > > In CoS, Percy is only a prefect, not Head Boy yet, so a prefect > definitely can take points from his own house, but that seems to be > it. > > Pruneau Laura: You're quite right, in which case Remus being a Ravenclaw prefect would have no effect whatever on James or Sirius. Btw, it appears that this topic has been discussed before, a couple of years ago. I'm pretty new to this list (and posting to groups in general), so forgive me for not doing the research before posting. I read the archives on this after I sent my post. I'll try to do better... From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 13:23:10 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 13:23:10 -0000 Subject: the scorcerers stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" wrote: > If Nicholas Flamel is 600+ years old, Dumbledore must also be around > that age. They made the stone together, presumably before Flamel was > maybe 100 or something so how old is Dumbledore and has he been > taking the elixir too? > *Yaira* That was mentioned in the movie by Hermione while they were in the library, found in the book she had for some "light" reading. Was it also in the book? Harry read about DD's and Flamel's work together on the DD card he received from a chocolate frog box, but can't remember if the library scene was also in the book. Can anyone back this up? I am re-reading SS at this point and haven't made that far yet. From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Aug 5 18:02:11 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:02:11 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the philosopher's stone References: Message-ID: <3F2FF123.000001.57261@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 75505 *Yaira* --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" wrote: > If Nicholas Flamel is 600+ years old, Dumbledore must also be around > that age. They made the stone together, presumably before Flamel was > maybe 100 or something so how old is Dumbledore and has he been > taking the elixir too? > Me - Actually according to JKR Dumbledore is about 150. The books say that he worked with Flamel *not* that he discovered the Stone with him. The Stone was, presumably, an independent discovery of Flamel's long before Dumbledore was born. Since JKR says there is no higher education in the wizarding world I wonder If Dumbledore was a kind of apprentice to the older and, presumably more learned, Flamel? K From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 5 18:08:29 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:08:29 -0000 Subject: the scorcerers stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75506 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" > wrote: > > If Nicholas Flamel is 600+ years old, Dumbledore must also be > around > > that age. They made the stone together, presumably before Flamel > was > > maybe 100 or something so how old is Dumbledore and has he been > > taking the elixir too? > > *Yaira* > > That was mentioned in the movie by Hermione while they were in the > library, found in the book she had for some "light" reading. Was it > also in the book? Harry read about DD's and Flamel's work together > on the DD card he received from a chocolate frog box, but can't > remember if the library scene was also in the book. Can anyone back > this up? I am re-reading SS at this point and haven't made that far > yet. According to JKR, Dumbledore is about 150 years old. Kneasy From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 17:38:45 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 17:38:45 -0000 Subject: Is Lily Voldemort daughter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75507 "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Is Lilly really muggle born? I'm convinced of the Lilly is related > to > > the Heir of Slytherin through LV theory. What else can be done with > > all the green eye references? Green being so strongly associated > > with Slytherin. Weak I know but read on: > > > > OK, we do have overwhelming evidence that Lily was muggle born as > > both LV (as Tom Riddle) in CoS and Snape in OotP called her a > > mudblood. We also know that Lilly has to the sister (or blood > related > > to Petunia) in order for her special protection to work while Harry > > is in their house in Privet Dr. So where can the connection be? > > > > I propose Lilly is only the half sister to Petunia. They share the > > same mother but have different fathers. Lilly's mum met and > married > > Mr. Evans when she was pregnant (or Lilly was a just a baby). Mr. > > Evans adopted Lilly as his own. This preserves the blood > connection > > to Petunia, and lets everyone believe Lily is muggle born and > allows > > her to be the daughter of LV. <> Garrett: > Sorry but this theroy goes completly agianst canon. DD says in CoS > that V is the last remaining heir to slyhterine. And seing as DD > knows everything about Harry, he would of told him if his mum was > related to lv, or if he was related to slytherine? Me: But it doesn't go against canon. Your reference above misquotes that part of CoS. DD says that V is the last *ancestor* to Slytherin. That choice of wording (versus heir or descendent) gives a much different meaning to the statement. As I pondered in a post yesterday, I wondered if V *could* actually be Lily's father (in a scenario similar to that described in the first part above). He was 65 when Harry was 12 (Riddle was 15 when CoS was opened 50 years before); if Lily was, say 21 years older than Harry, then Riddle/LV could (age-wise, anyway) conceivably be Lily's unknown dad, having been about 32 when she was born. We have only been told that Tom Riddle disappeared for years after leaving Hogwart's and then turned up again as Lord Voldemort, and no one knows what he was doing during that time. Riddle was an extremely talented wizard, we've been told. Lily was also quite talented. Maybe that's where she got it - heredity. Shirley From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 5 18:20:33 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:20:33 +0100 Subject: Inheritance Message-ID: <80C4D5C7-C771-11D7-83F9-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75508 Lots of speculation about Grimmauld Place and will Harry iinherit. But everyone seems to have forgotten about Godrics Hollow. Doesn't that belong to Harry now? It may be a wreck, but land prices in the southern half of England means that he's rich! As he's under age he will have to have a guardian to deal with the legal bits and pieces. Who is the guardian? By law it will be Petunia if no other arrangements (legal, not casual), have been made. Even if it was Sirius that now becomes null and void on his death and his heirs cannot inherit a guardianship for a non-family member. So just what did happen to it? Kneasy From siskiou at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 18:28:47 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 11:28:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron and the Imperious Curse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17754014442.20030805112847@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75509 Hi, Tuesday, August 05, 2003, 6:58:39 AM, ghinghapuss wrote: > BUT we know he's > in love with Hermione and she's not in love with him. Do we really know that Hermione doesn't reciprocate Ron's feelings (not sure if love is the right word for those, yet, on both sides. They are still very young)? I've been seeing plenty of hints (all of which have been mentioned plenty of times on this list), for Hermione liking Ron. So, I want to respectfully disagree with the above statement. When it comes to the Imperius Curse, I do believe Harry was the only one who could resist it, and there was no mention of any other kids being able to even attempt to fight it. Many adult wizards/witches have trouble resisting the Imperius, too, and I'd have a hard time blaming them for all having "weak" characters. I've seen it said many times on this list that Ron is somehow inferior and easily led (the Imperius and Veelas being cited as proof, usually), but I haven't really seen anyone besides Harry who did successfully resist among his age mates. Harry stands out from just about everyone (not sure if he has natural talent, or "received" a lot of it from LV). Hermione loves reading and seems to possess a photographic memory (imo). She does great in theory, but usually has a lot more trouble in practice (meaning under pressure, not in class situations). Neither one of his friends seems to think Ron is inferior to them, even though Hermione appears to be trying to get Ron to finally say LV's name, now that *she* took this step. ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From jesmck at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 18:33:34 2003 From: jesmck at yahoo.com (jesmck) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:33:34 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Just curious, but what happens to Grimmauld Place now? Who > inherits? > > My responce: > > Depends on if Sirius left a will. Jessica writes: I think the order will continue to use the house. For Sirius' will to be read, someone in the Order will have to admit that Sirius was killed in battle with them, which could get them in trouble for harboring a fugitive. Or, a DE would have to admit that they were in the MOM and fighting him which also seems unlikely to me. I think that no one will say anything and the building will be abandoned or the Order will continue to control it. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 5 18:42:29 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:42:29 +0100 Subject: Bloodlines (was Re; is Lily Voldemorts daughter) Message-ID: <9142E5EE-C774-11D7-83F9-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75511 me (kneazelkid): JK has put an awful lot of emphasis on bloodlines throughout the series. In OotP she was almost jabbing the bloodline idea through our throats with the Black Family tapestry and the protection the Dursley's house has for Harry because of Petunia's "blood". I really think that she's doing this as foreshadowing, i.e. bloodlines are going to be very important in the end. BUT I know that the British culture has a bit more of a hangup on bloodlines than we melting-pot Americans do so perhaps the bloodline thing is just something it's British to mention (Tolkien did the same thing and my friends who have been abroad have mentioned the whole "inherated rank" thing to me). PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong and don't think I mean "All British people think alike." I'm just trying to grasp the cultural differences. kneazelkid -- who loves (almost) all things British me now: I wrote a post about a month ago (Psychology, Blood and a Theory No. 68045) that contained a bit of history that helps explain the Brit traditions about blood lines, not just relating to humans either. And it's not restricted to the upper classes; everyone knew everyone else and their family histories and used them to make decisions on whether you wanted them to marry into your family. Today we either laugh at such ideas or frown and talk about prejudice; strange thing is - it used to work. I grew up in a traditional working class family in a traditional working class street. My parents (and older neighbours) used to talk about 'the new people at No. 17' They'd been there 15 years! Don't ever move into an English village, the type seen in films ; it will be at least two generations before your family is accepted. They will be friendly, but you won't be truly accepted as an insider. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Aug 5 18:45:29 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:45:29 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho/Go Ginny!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > Re: The chances for romance for Harry: > I'm wondering about the same thing. At the end of OOTP when Harry > sees Cho again and Hermione tells him Cho is seeing someone > else, "Harry was surprised to find that this information did not hurt > at all. Wanting to impress Cho seemed to belong to a past that was > no longer quite connected with him. So much of what he wanted before > Sirius's death felt that way these days..." > > Maybe he's having a grief reaction, or maybe it's really sinking in > that his life is going to be about many other things besides a > girlfriend. This may tie into why so many of the members of OOTP are > single--fighting dark wizards doesn't leave much time for romance, or > maybe they had romances at one time, but these relationships were > destroyed by Voldemort and the DE's. The atmosphere of death and > destruction they bring makes it very risky to love and risk putting > your family in danger. > > I do think Ginny is going to play a key role in his life, if not as > his romantic partner, then as one of his strategic partners in > battle. > Ariadne Jennifer again, If there was anything good that came from OOP (okay, the truth, even the partial truth was a good thing)or maybe I should say a happy thing, it was Ginny's development. After seeing Ginny come into her own, Cho should be long forgotten. I do hope something good will grow between Harry and Ginny but it's awfully hard, as you mentioned, to squeeze in romance when the most powerful dark wizard ever is after you. Still, Ginny and her achievements in OOP give me a thrill. Jennifer From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 18:51:30 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:51:30 -0000 Subject: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > The danger is if Ron begins to suspect, or thinks he sees a > relationship between Harry and Hermione. Love triangles can be > incredibly destructive. Both men and women have destroyed each other > out of jealousy. Maybe this is just me, but don't you think he might already suspect this since the two went into the forbidden forest during his quidditch game. > > I believe this to be a part of Ron destiny. As the weakest and most > susceptible of the 3 to outside influences, it could be an > interesting development for the trio to deal with and fight to > overcome. Well I don't think Ron is going to betray his pals like what Wormtail did or under Voldemort's influence. However I think he is going to try and get back at them if he becomes jealous and the unseen consequences of those actions might put his friends in harms way and create a rift that will fracture the trio permantly. From leon at adatofamily.com Tue Aug 5 18:55:52 2003 From: leon at adatofamily.com (Leon Adato) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:55:52 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75514 Several folks have commented that this involves entailment, legal proceedings, and also that Bellatrix won't claim the house because she is an escaped convect. If so (to all of that), then how did Sirius get it in the first place? It's not like he could show up at some ministry office, claim the keys to his righful estate, and then say "but I'm only here for that, not for that other Azkaban stuff" and walk out. 2 theories arise in my mind: First, Grimmauld sat unused for 10 years because nobody else wanted it. Bellatrix was in jail, Andromeda was dead, and Narcissa had her own digs. By that thinking, the Order may be able to continue to use it, at least until the WW version of probate catches up. Of course, now that Kreacher has spilled the beans, maybe Narcissa will come sniffing around after all. Of course, she won't be able to find it, but that may lead to a humorous moment at the ministry. "I've come to lay claim to my ancestral house" "Where is it?" "I don't know." etc. The second theory is that inheretance is magically controlled, rather than through any governance. In that case, whomever is next in line can open the door, and all the other potential inheretors can't. This doesn't diminish the previously stated fact that the next inheretor can't find the house right now, but it may mean that Grimmauld is sealed off until the inheretor comes and claims it, which creates a nifty little conundrum for the Order. 2 knuts deposited Leon From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 5 18:56:11 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:56:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Names References: <1060106470.5674.45505.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <00ba01c35b83$3d1d9c60$ad516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 75515 O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri T M Sommers: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > > wrote: > >>(gets book):Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore > > > > Ah, but Brian makes me think of King Brian of Knocknasheega, the > > king of the leprechauns in "Darby O'Gill and the Little People"! > > Or Brian Boru. It sounds to me like a subtle indication that Dumbledore is a uniter of the various cultural and national traditions of these islands: Albus - Roman Percival - Norman Wulfric - Saxon Brian - Celtic (Brian Boroimhe, btw...) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From foxmoth at qnet.com Tue Aug 5 19:10:33 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:10:33 -0000 Subject: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Pruneau" > > In CoS, Percy is only a prefect, not Head Boy yet, so a prefect > > definitely can take points from his own house, but that seems to be > > it. > > Laura: > > You're quite right, in which case Remus being a Ravenclaw >prefect would have no effect whatever on James or Sirius. But it seems that prefects can assign detentions. Percy issues a warning in CoS to Draco and his supposed pals Crabbe and Goyle (really Harry and Ron) about the respect due to prefects. If there was nothing Percy could do to them personally, he'd have had to threaten to report them, but he doesn't. As for the communication difficulties also mentioned in this thread, now that we know about the magic mirrors that seems less of an obstacle. We also know that the Sorting Hat begs the Houses to unite in times of trouble. Lupin rooting for Gryffindor against Ravenclaw? Why not? It's my theory that MWPP formed a gang of their own and became alienated from their Houses. Their loyalties were to each other. If James was the only Quidditch player in the group, then they would have all rooted for him. As for Sirius, if he was a Slytherin then he is the good Slytherin whose appearance we have been awaiting. This is very convenient; his death in Harry's defense puts his heroic good-guy credentials beyond question. Pippin From yellows at aol.com Tue Aug 5 19:16:56 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 15:16:56 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: OOP Azkaban effects Message-ID: <2C37BA32.54E29D34.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75517 In a message dated 8/4/2003 9:13:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mr. Nipha writes: > Bellatrix, she is heading for the visitors elevator/phone box to escape the Ministry building. Why not just apparate before Harry even gets off to the 8th floor in the elevator? Maybe she can't, or isn't confident in her ability to do so under stress as an after-effect of her stay in Azkaban. Oh, I'd rather not think of Sirius' murderer as not functioning at her full ability. I want her to be the baddest *&^%* on the planet if she's allowed to take away the love of my life. ;) I did notice that it was strange she didn't Apparate, though, and I brushed it aside by telling myself there was a block similar to Hogwarts' regarding Apparation in the Department of Mysteries. What I read into the lack of power loss in the DEs and in Sirius was that it doesn't apply to the strong-minded. People who are weak souls would likely be overcome by the Dementors' presence, but the magically gifted are capable of standing up against the pain of Azkaban. Brief Chronicles From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Tue Aug 5 19:26:03 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:26:03 -0000 Subject: Ghosts (was: Re: the Fat Lady - Name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" > wrote: > The Grey Lady hasn't been identified more than thus, either - > the Ravenclaw ghost? . . . It seems odd, as the other > house ghosts have specific and front-of-house roles to play. > The other thing about ghosts is, when Harry and Ron are waiting to > go in to be sorted in PS, 'About twenty ghosts had just streamed > through the back wall'. Where are they all? We only see the three > house ghosts and Peeves.. > > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria > > > > Actually, we've seen all four house ghosts. > Gryffindor - Nearly Headless Nick > Ravenclaw - The Grey Lady > Huffulepuff - The Fat Friar > Slytherin - The Bloody Baron > > Nick is the only one who we know the actual name of. > > bibphile ME - Know that - see above. What I'm wondering about is where are the other 16 ghosts, unless JKR is exaggerating again - even then, I would have thought she could have made do with 'a dozen or so ghosts..' It's a bit like the Gryffs not having lessons with the Ravings, whereas they do with Slythes and Huffies.. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 19:33:25 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:33:25 -0000 Subject: Ghosts (was: Re: the Fat Lady - Name) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: The Grey Lady hasn't been identified more than thus, either - the Ravenclaw ghost? . . . It seems odd, as the other house ghosts have specific and front-of-house roles to play. The other thing about ghosts is, when Harry and Ron are waiting to go in to be sorted in PS, 'About twenty ghosts had just streamed through the back wall'. Where are they all? We only see the three house ghosts and Peeves.. > me (bibpile): >Actually, we've seen all four house ghosts. Gryffindor - Nearly Headless Nick Ravenclaw - The Grey Lady Huffulepuff - The Fat Friar Slytherin - The Bloody Baron > AmanitaMuscaria >- Know that - see above. What I'm wondering about is where are he other 16 ghosts, unless JKR is exaggerating again - even then, I would have thought she could have made do with 'a dozen or so ghosts..' It's a bit like the Gryffs not having lessons with the Ravings, whereas they do with Slythes and Huffies.. > I was referring to the fact that it looked to me like you forgot the Fat Friar. I knew that wasn't your main point. As far as the other ghosts: I guess they're like Myrtle or Binns. They "live" at Hogwarts for one reason or another, but aren't affliated with any particular house. I know that's not much help. Sorry. bibphile From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 19:55:37 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:55:37 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Imperius Curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75520 Why is it in GOF that we don't see the effect of the Imperius Curse on Hermione when Barty Crouch Jr., posing as Moody, is putting everyone under it? I mean we see the effect that it has on Neville, Ron, Dean, Lavender and Harry, but not the effect that it has on Hermione. From yellows at aol.com Tue Aug 5 20:02:30 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:02:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Names Message-ID: <0F3A2A3D.01BA33E3.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75521 In a message dated 8/5/2003 12:39:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Blyx at yahoo.com writes: > well, here is every anagram for Lord Voldemort: > http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Lord+Vo > ldemort Well, there we have it, folks! LOVED OLD MR ORT. Now, all we have to do is figure out who Old Mr. Ort is or was, and we've got it all solved. Old Mr. Ort will be Voldie's downfall. ;) Brief Chronicles From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 20:08:32 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:08:32 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? References: <200308051120.28323.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75522 Silmariel No, there can't be a mishearing or forgetting. That's what pensieves are for. Dan: Absolutely--that and memory charms to slice the information out of a DE's brain. Silmariel: That's why I'd use Harry to retrieve the prophecy Dan: Right, indeed. I wonder if Voldemort would have better luck Imperius-ing Harry now that he is back to full strength. No way that Harry would've lasted 10 seconds against Voldemort based on the fight between The Dark Lord and Dumbledore. Silmariel: Easy thing. I remember again I can perform Imperio and 'hire' a FX man to make a mask. With that an a cloak (not my Papented Evil Lord tunic, another one), I'm another DE. But I keep saying he does not need to be there. Dan: No, he doesn't. He could have, though. He definately could have. I would recommend possession. Silmariel If we can make great plans strictly with the little knowledge we have about magic, he should do better plans. He is supposed to be brilliant. Dan: I agree. The Dark Lord is supposed to be incredibly cunning and evil, but at this point, I think he's a very powerful wizard with idiotic plans. Thus, I see him as a cartoonish villain, with a penchant for torture. Silmariel: Wich makes me ask why was he there? To steal a time-turner, maybe? If I were an Evil Lord and had a tturner... mm. Dan: Perhaps. If I was going to send a bunch of people into a super-secret research facility to steal something, might as well steal an incredibly powerful pocket-sized time machine. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From huntleyl at mssm.org Tue Aug 5 20:11:30 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 16:11:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Cho References: Message-ID: <03e001c35b8d$c297caf0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 75523 Kneasy: >Who said Cedric was loving and very kind? >He was just the 'boyfriend' of a 15/16 year old >immature girl. >And from my observations, that doesn't mean a great >deal. >I think it's a big mistake to ascribe adult feelings >to kids just past pubescence. >Shock that he's gone, yes, confusion, maybe; but >recovering from a significant >relationship? I don't think so. *raises eyebrows* Yes, because 15 year olds aren't capable of real emotion. Damn straight. Honestly, regardless of the validity or longevity or "real-ness" of a teenager's love/pain/etc., I know that they at least FEEL real enough to said teenager. ^_~ You call Cho immature. Personally, I found her very mature for her age in GoF, when she refused to shun Harry along with the rest of the school. Furthermore, I don't think her behavior in OotP counts as a strike against her. I would go so far as to label it "Perfectly Normal" and even "Predictable". The most telling line occurs on pg. 562 of OotP, US edition: --- "I thought," she said, tears spattering down onto the table. "I thought *you'd* understand! I *need* to talk about it! Surely you n-need to talk about it t-too! I mean, you saw it happen, d-didn't you?" --- Cho *is* confused, and while I think she may have been interested in Harry pre-Cedric, I think her main reason for pursuing him in OotP is that she wants to *understand*. She believes, and *rightly* so, that Harry might need to understand as well. She's drawn to him because she realizes, intuitively, that they *could* help each other. It's not her fault that Harry's interest in her is purely superficial or that he can't deal with her as a real person -- imperfections and all. Neither is it her fault that he's found his comfort in his friends and is unwilling to open up to her the way she needs. Not that it's Harry's fault either. I disagree with "feetmadeofclay" who says, "Well, you're supposed to hate her (or just dislike her) and think she's ridiculous." I don't think that was JKR's intention at all. I think her intention was to show how Evil (in this case, Voldemort) can destroy good things and cause GOOD people (because Cho and Harry both are) to hurt each other. It all ties in with her theme of Evil spreading confusion, discord, and enmity. The remedy for these things being, of course, Love and all its myriad components (affection, respect, consideration, etc.). Poor Cho. She obviously doesn't know how to cope with Cedric's death. She's hurt, confused, and alone. I hardly think we can condemn her because of her erratic and emotional behavior. Harry's really been the same way, hasn't he? Only he's been taking out his feelings through shouting at his friends, rather than crying on them. Poor Harry. He royally screwed up with Cho. And how could he not have? It's simply not fair that his first romantic relationship was so doomed by its participants' guilt, grief, and confusion -- not to mention the specter of a dead boy. It's just too much for a newbie, you know? ^_~ Laura (who would like to make it clear that she is in no way, shape, or form a Harry/Cho shipper.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From laxer26 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 20:15:08 2003 From: laxer26 at yahoo.com (Trevor Peterson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:15:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? Message-ID: <20030805201508.8723.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75524 Steve wrote I hate to break it to both of you, but the US is not a democracy either, it is a representative republic. This means that we elect representatives to represent us in Washington, ie the House, the Senate, etc. The WW seems to be a dictatorial democracy, much like the Ancient Greek states of Macedonia and Sparta. Where a leader was elected by a group of powerful aristocrats for a specific period of time. These leaders were given total control for their elected period, commonly 2 years. Fudge could do as he did with those powers, but notice how he had to get the public on his side by controlling the press spin. Fudge with all his powers was afraid of public opinion and tried to shape it. Dictators only worry about public opinion when in a Democracy. Laxer: First, show me where either of us said that the US was a Democracy. All that was said was that the wizarding world is not following the US model of government. Second, yes you are kind of correct with saying that the US is not a democracy. Websters says that in a strict sense, a democracy is where the supreme power is vested in the people. - my note- the only place where you will then be able to have a democracy is small towns because of the inefficiencies of making decisions- The first definition that Websters gives is ....the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them or their elected agents. On that note, the WW is a democracy if the people elect the minister of magic or the wizengamot, otherwise no. And in my humble opinion, even if the WW is a democracy technically, it is not a good one laxer --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 20:19:03 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:19:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione and the Imperius Curse References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75525 GEO: Why is it in GOF that we don't see the effect of the Imperius Curse on Hermione when Barty Crouch Jr., posing as Moody, is putting everyone under it? I mean we see the effect that it has on Neville, Ron, Dean, Lavender and Harry, but not the effect that it has on Hermione. Dan: I'm not sure. I suspect that she would have had difficulty with it. Wasn't Harry the only one to break through it? -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tomatogrower88 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 20:19:28 2003 From: tomatogrower88 at yahoo.com (tomatogrower88) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:19:28 -0000 Subject: Why Lupin can't be evil! In-Reply-To: <20030804213934.94406.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > I have toyed with writing this for weeks now, ever since the first evil Lupin scenario and while I realize most people are not advocating this theory I just have to put in my say as to why it would devistate the entire story (and in my opinion do much more than that if Lupin turns out to be evil) > ~Mela I have to agree with you on this. For him to be evil would, in my opinion, be over the top. The major betrayer for James' group was Peter. If Lupin turns out to be evil it makes the whole bertayal issue too much of a bad thing. I do not see evil Lupin adding anything to the plot. Much of my opinion is hopeful. I went and reread POA and OOP to find any thing to disprove ESE Lupin. I could not find any new points just what I have stated above. I like Lupin I would feel bad if he turned out ESE. Myrth From chrissilein at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 20:26:22 2003 From: chrissilein at yahoo.com (Chrissi) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:26:22 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75527 Dear Cindy, all that funny speculations like "Snape is a Vampire", or "James switched body with Remus" and so on are much more weird and unbelievable than my odd Gypsy idea. I?d never said I know it, but I got an impression he maybe could be one. And why not? What?s wrong to be a Gypsy? Or why shouldn?t he be a pureblood who is unnamed because of the arrogance of the English purebloods? Ok, I hope you now understand better what I was talking about. Once again: I don?t know it, I just combinated several facts from the books with antropolgical facts and my knowledge of ethnical sterotypes which still exists among people and their myths about "weird strangers". >From my point of view JKR uses stereotypes to teach the readers lessons. A very good example is the treatment of Snivellus by the Marauders, who first seemed to be the nice guys, but in fact were nothing more than nasty bullies (as I thought long before the fith book released). By the way, I don?t mean Snape maybe had been the better one, but he has been alone and they were two, if not four, which made them in my eyes cowards. Bye --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chrissi" wrote: > > Hello, > > > > As we already know Severus had been the "oddball" at Hogwarts, and the > > most unpopular student at school. He looks "different" and seems to be > > a "pureblood", but the Snapes don?t appear among the other > > pureblood > > families. > > Now Cindy: > > How do you know that the Snape's don't appear among other wizarding > families? You don't, that's the whole point. Firstly, all we have to > go on is one tapestry - and that is a Black family tree, perhaps the > Snape's arn't interrelated with the Blacks, or perhaps Harry didn't > bother looking at the whole tapestry - it is huge, and Harry only > looked at a small portion of it. > > > If you read very intensive about his magical abilities, the short > > snips of his childhood and his unbelievele grudge he hold there could > > be a different possibility. > > Cindy again: > > If you look at Draco's magical abilities you will find that they are > similar to the way Snape's are described as being at Draco's age. It > seems to me more that it is a pureblood tradition, to teach their > children as much as they can about all kinds of magic, especially the > kind that isn't taught at school. I have no doubts that Snape is a > pureblood wizard. He is the Head of Slytherin house, called Lilly a > filthy mudblood, and only wears robes with no muggle clothes > underneath. So it would be fitting that he would learn those things at > home. And we don'treally know anything about his parents - where did > Snape's father's loyalties luy? > > > Several prejudicies are: > > > > 1.they are untrustworthy > > 2.they are curious, sneaking around, try to harm the "others" (people > > who live at one place) > > 2.they are very advanced at dark magic, do potions, are good > > mindreaders, know a lot about the "others" weakness > > 3.they are filthy, live in mess > > 4.they praticise vegeance > > 5.they hold grudge in generations against their enemies > > 6.they are proud > > 7.they are "ugly" > > 8.they strengthend their kids to fight with all resorts they learned > > by parents and family > > 9. they are thieves > > 10. they are jealous because of the good life the "others" seem to > > have > > 11.they have no place to live, because they are always drifting from > > one place to an other > > 12. they are simply weird, in different ways > > > > These are typical stereotypes about the gypsies, and Severus Snape > > could be of a gypsy origin. Even he lives an assimilated life. > > Cindy again: > > This is an interesting theory, and who knows, you might be right. I > can't wait to learn more about Snape, he is my most favourite > character. Though, Gypsy's generally tend to have dark skin, and Snape > is extremely pale. > I have noticed though, that many characters in the HP world resemble > each other. (Tom Riddle telling Harry that they look very similar > comes to mind). This is either because they are interrelated, or > something else that we don't yet know! > But I have noticed that many characters have black hair: Snape, > Riddle, Potter(s), Black(s) etc... > > -Cindy > Snape fans visit http://www.designerpotions.com/ss From jdq53562 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 20:28:59 2003 From: jdq53562 at aol.com (Arya) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:28:59 -0000 Subject: Why Bella didn't disapparate-was OOP Azkaban effects In-Reply-To: <2C37BA32.54E29D34.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/4/2003 9:13:03 PM Eastern Standard Time, Mr. Nipha writes: > > > Bellatrix, she is heading for the visitors elevator/phone box to escape the Ministry building. Why not just apparate before Harry even gets off to the 8th floor in the elevator? Maybe she can't, or isn't confident in her ability to do so under stress as an after- effect of her stay in Azkaban. > > Oh, I'd rather not think of Sirius' murderer as not functioning at her full ability. I want her to be the baddest *&^%* on the planet if she's allowed to take away the love of my life. ;) > I did notice that it was strange she didn't Apparate, though, and I brushed it aside by telling myself there was a block similar to Hogwarts' regarding Apparation in the Department of Mysteries. > What I read into the lack of power loss in the DEs and in Sirius was that it doesn't apply to the strong-minded. People who are weak souls would likely be overcome by the Dementors' presence, but the magically gifted are capable of standing up against the pain of Azkaban. > > Brief Chronicles I say Bellatrix didn't disapparate because she couldn't. Dumbledore clearly says that the other captured DE are bound and being held under an anti-appartition jinx in the Death Chamber. This would explain why, Bellatrix would have to had to make a run for it to leave when the numbers turned against her favor and after she had disposed of Sirius. (Especially, after Dumbledore arrived, I imagine she really wanted to hightail it out of there.) So, it seem shtat if Dumbledore needed to use an anti-apparition jinx to hold the others there, then they COULD previously have disapprated away. Which I imagine may be unusual for the Ministry of Magic--then again so is allowing a dozen Death Eaters and 6 students walting in to the DoM. My guess it that Lucius or perhaps another (Rookwood, MAcNair, etc) who has inside info on the Ministry, helped disable wards and protection to allow them and the kids in. Also, allowing for disapparition so they could get away with the prophecy when the finally got it. I mean, let's face it, I think the whole, "Purpose of Buisiness?" and "Rescue Mission" was a little obvious that it just should not work like that. Someone cleared the way for them and it was no secret the metting at the Ministry was planned out. (Duh what else do Dark Lords do but plot?!! But this leaves us with another question: How did Voldemort disappear with Bellatrix at the end? I say, if you are as strong or stronger than the wizard casting the spell to oppose you (Dumbledore's anti-app jinx versus Voldemort's ability to disapparate) then you can do it. So Volde could break through Dumbledore's spell. I also imagine that Volde was able to "carry" or "help" Bellatrix to go with him (either through a form of possession or through another method of sharing and drawing upon magic--perhaps the dark mark allows this conduit.) My two knuts, Arya From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 20:34:02 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:34:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Names In-Reply-To: <0F3A2A3D.01BA33E3.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030805203402.14607.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75529 --- yellows at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/5/2003 12:39:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > Blyx at yahoo.com writes: > > > well, here is every anagram for Lord Voldemort: > > http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Lord+Voldemort > > Well, there we have it, folks! LOVED OLD MR ORT. Now, all we > have to do is figure out who Old Mr. Ort is or was, and we've > got it all solved. Old Mr. Ort will be Voldie's downfall. ;) I think I have a new favorite website.... *pitter patter* Thanks to whomever posted the anagram site! BTW, 'Severus Snape' really means 'ASSES NERVE UP' - This is obviously a cleverly deliberate move, demonstrative of JKR's intimate knowledge of his character. *nods knowingly* Lisa G __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 20:39:50 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:39:50 -0000 Subject: the scorcerers stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: Yaira: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" > wrote: > > If Nicholas Flamel is 600+ years old, Dumbledore must also be > around > > that age. They made the stone together, presumably before Flamel > was > > maybe 100 or something so how old is Dumbledore and has he been > > taking the elixir too? > > *Yaira* > Severusbook4: > That was mentioned in the movie by Hermione while they were in the > library, found in the book she had for some "light" reading. Was it > also in the book? Harry read about DD's and Flamel's work together > on the DD card he received from a chocolate frog box, but can't > remember if the library scene was also in the book. Can anyone back > this up? I am re-reading SS at this point and haven't made that far > yet. Me: No. In the chapter "Nicholas Flamel" - pp.160-162 in my edition - it takes place in the Gryffindor common room. Neville comes in after Malfoy puts a leg-locker curse on him and Harry gives him a chocolate frog to cheer him up and finds the reference to NF on the Dumbledore card; this reminds him that he had seen it previously on the very first chocolate frog hr had seen on the Hogwarts Express. Hermione brings the "light" reading down from her dormitory. Geoff From jdq53562 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 20:44:46 2003 From: jdq53562 at aol.com (Arya) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:44:46 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: <20030805203402.14607.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75531 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > > --- yellows at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 8/5/2003 12:39:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > Blyx at y... writes: > > > > > well, here is every anagram for Lord Voldemort: > > > > http://www.wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=Lord+Voldemort > > > > Well, there we have it, folks! LOVED OLD MR ORT. Now, all we > > have to do is figure out who Old Mr. Ort is or was, and we've > > got it all solved. Old Mr. Ort will be Voldie's downfall. ;) > > I think I have a new favorite website.... *pitter patter* Thanks > to whomever posted the anagram site! > > BTW, 'Severus Snape' really means 'ASSES NERVE UP' - This is > obviously a cleverly deliberate move, demonstrative of JKR's > intimate knowledge of his character. > > *nods knowingly* > Lisa G Vector translates to "COVERT"...... From butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net Tue Aug 5 20:52:40 2003 From: butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net (losangelis) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:52:40 -0000 Subject: Number of Students at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75532 Hey all, I was thinking about the past conversation about the discrepency between the number of students per class and JKR's claim there was 1000 students at Hogwarts. I came across an interesting website that compares the houses to personality temperaments. The site is located at http://keirsey.com/sortinghat.html , and determines based on the traits of each house, a personality type that would parallel the house. In it, Gryffindor's parallel, the "Idealists", make up only 8-10% of the general population. This means that the other three personality types (or three houses), would make up 90-92% of the population. In other words, assuming that there are 10 students in Harry's class (the two unnamed girls, as has been theorized), there should be 90-92 more students total in Harry's year, give or take a few, for a total of around 100. Multiply those 100 students times the seven years, and you have 700. Now, factor in that Harry's year (and the ones preceding) are perhaps a bit "light" due to the number of deaths at the time of LV and the DE's, and now the idea of 1000 students at Hogwarts isn't quite so far fetched. It would mean, however, that Gryffindors are quite rare. Here is a breakdown, based on the website I listed above. Ravenclaw - "Rationals" (NT) - 5-7% of the population, thus around 6 students sorted in Harry's year. Gryffindor - "Idealists" (NF) - 8-10% of the population, thus the 8- 10 students sorted in Harry's year. Slytherin - "Artisans" (SP) - 35 - 40% of the populations, so figure around 37 Slytherins in Harry's year. Hufflepuff - "Guardians" (SJ) - 40-45% of the populaton, so figure around 42 Hufflepuffs in Harry's year. It is interesting, that as Helga Hufflepuff said she would basically "take the leftovers" after the other three houses picked out those with the traits they felt were desirable, that Hufflepuff's numbers would still be most prevelent. I also think it is a little scary to see that Slytherins are nearly half the population, according to this theory. Wiley o' Ravenclaw From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Aug 5 20:53:41 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:53:41 -0000 Subject: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75533 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote > Well I don't think Ron is going to betray his pals like what Wormtail did or under Voldemort's influence. However I think he is going to try and get back at them if he becomes jealous and the unseen consequences of those actions might put his friends in harms way and create a rift that will fracture the trio permantly.> What makes you think Ron is vindictive? I haven't seen him (AFAIK) seek revenge against someone who has pissed him off. In GoF he was very angry with Harry but his way of dealing with that was to simply not speak to Harry. If Ron believes that there is something going on between his two friends, he may be very hurt and may withdraw from them, but I'd be quite suprised if he acts on that and decides it would be worth going after them somehow. --jenny from ravenclaw, back from Hell ********************************************************* From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 20:55:28 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:55:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: <03e001c35b8d$c297caf0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > I think her intention was to show how Evil (in this case, Voldemort) can destroy good things and cause GOOD people (because Cho and Harry both are) to hurt each other. It all ties in with her theme of Evil spreading confusion, discord, and enmity. > > Poor Cho. She obviously doesn't know how to cope with Cedric's death. She's hurt, confused, and alone. > Poor Harry. It's simply not fair that his first romantic relationship was so doomed by its participants' guilt, grief, and confusion -- not to mention the specter of a dead boy. It's just too much for a newbie, you know? ^_~ Hey, I just said that, about its being Voldemort's/Evil's doing, etc., a few hours ago! Yes, I agree! They could have had a much more normal story had all that nastiness not happened. A.J. From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 21:25:44 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:25:44 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: <3F2F64DF.6040809@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Wanda Sherratt wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > > wrote: > >>(gets book):Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore > > > > Ah, but Brian makes me think of King Brian of Knocknasheega, the > > king of the leprechauns in "Darby O'Gill and the Little People"! > > Or Brian Boru. Sof: Brian being one of Dumbledore's names makes me laugh. There are all these unusual or old-fashioned in names and then the very ordinary 'Brian.' Had to laugh. From mbush at lainc.com Tue Aug 5 21:44:45 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:44:45 -0000 Subject: Inheritance In-Reply-To: <80C4D5C7-C771-11D7-83F9-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Lots of speculation about Grimmauld Place and will Harry iinherit. > > But everyone seems to have forgotten about Godrics Hollow. Doesn't that > belong to Harry now? > It may be a wreck, but land prices in the southern half of England > means that he's rich! > > As he's under age he will have to have a guardian to deal with the > legal bits and pieces. > > Who is the guardian? By law it will be Petunia if no other arrangements > (legal, not casual), have been made. Even if it was Sirius that now > becomes null and void on his death and his heirs cannot inherit a > guardianship for a non-family member. > > So just what did happen to it? > > Kneasy Very interesting thought... Let's think about this some: Lupin is the last of the remaining close friends of James that we know about (other than Dumbledore) But at the time of James' death he apparently thought that Lupin was the spy for Voldermort (POA) since that was also Sirius' thinking until the Shrieking Shack scene in POA. It "could" be where he has been staying between jobs, prior to Grimmauld becoming the home for the order.... It would be scary to think of Wormtail as a guardian after his betrayal of James and Lily and Harry, but would James have specified a "second" if something had happened to Sirius as well? and would that be Wormtail? (Shudder to think) Lily and James were in the order so they must have been close to Dumbledore on some level overall... he was left James' invisibility cloak for whatever reason. So he could be keeper of other things as well, but for whatever reason found he couldn't be guardian.... or did he? Was he really made Guardian, and because of the circumstances, as guardian, he decided to appoint another "guardian"? Hmmm interesting... he is the one in the know, and he is the one that put the charms that Petunia sealed by accepting Harry on them.... this could be possible...he seems to be a descision maker for Harry in SS when McGonagall questions him about weather or not it is wise to leave Harry with these Muggles....and his regrets speech in OOP may lean towards this as well... Let's look at some of the others too though. McGonagall is another possibility, although someone rightly pointed out in another thread today or yesterday that she is pretty no-nonsense, and doesn't mince words, and probably wouldn't keep something like that from Harry, but she may have some vested interest in Harry since she was there on Privett Drive in the beginning keeping watch, and is in the order, so was probably closer with Lily and James for that reason, not to mention that she may have been their Head of house at Hogwarts too, since we don't know when she became the head of Gryffendor house. We don't know any of Lily's close friends and I think the speculation of Alice Longbottom being a close friend of Lily is reasonable, especially since her close friends might be included in the order as well. Although Frank and Alice Longbottom are in no condition to be guardians of Harry although I do like the idea that Alice may be Godmother to Harry that has been discussed recently. There are other witches and wizards from the order that we know little of other than names, and probably some that we don't even know names of, but that doesn't seem to be something that JK would spring on us in the very end without having heard of them at all ever. There is still the possibility of Mrs Figg being of some more significant link, since a Squib living that close to the Dursleys and being of "The Old Crowd" AND a member of the order...there is definitely more there.(A SQUIB in the order alone raises curiosity) I had speculated prior to the release of OOP that maybe she was some "relative" (or rather very old friend of the family that is considered family) of Lily & Prtunia, I still think this could be a possibility, but it still creates a sticky situation since if Petunia knew Figgy was linked to the WW then, would she let Harry stay there on Dudley's days out? Unless she knew it was the only safe place to leave Harry when they weren't there...(kind of like her response to the howler in OOP) (not what I was intending to go into in this post) SO back to the main point. If Figgy was a member of the Old Crowd, then Lily and James knew her, and she could be on the guardian list too, and has also had a hand in overseeing him over the years. We don't know what has happened to James' Family. But from all accounts Petunia is the last of Harry's relatives on his mother's side. But that may mean immediate relatives, since I think there is something to the Mark Evans boy too, or else why name him? Especially Evans. Have I left out anyone significant? I think the Weasleys aren't part of this time frame. I can't think if Arthur was in the order the first time, but we know Molly was not. AND that seems to be some of that cryptic time with the big gap in the Weasley children's ages. I think Molly and Arthur are enough older than James and Lily, not to really know them. But did James have sisters that may have been older that were maybe in school with the Weasleys? (since OOP implies that Sirius was "adopted as a Second son" when he left home at 16, but it says nothing of sisters) I'm on another tangent I know... sorry. Whew! I didn't mean for this to get this long, and I don't think anything got resolved, but it brought up some interesting ideas anyway. Anyone have anything to add? Mtwelovett From drdara at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 21:52:16 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 14:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805215216.99821.qmail@web14508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75537 I had the same problem you did untill I listened to it on tape with stephen fry narrating and her pronounces it as serious. Danielle --- cubs99111 wrote: > Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius > pronounced like the word > Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name > in my head as > Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name I > guess I would > subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly I > always read > prefects as perfects. > > > Joe (knowing that unfortunatly no matter how his > name is pronounced, > he is still gone) > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From lziner at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 20:18:39 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lmziner) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:18:39 -0000 Subject: MWPP Same House? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75538 I'm new here so maybe this has been posted before so please be patient with me. I always assumed that the maurauders were all in the same house. How else would they be so close? I also assumed form PoA that Lupin was from Gryffindor (rooting for thier victory) and so were the others. Harry is not close to anyone outside of his house (Cho doesn't count as close). In order for James, Sirius and (ugh) Peter to figure out Lupin's condition, I would think that they would need to notice he was gone for several days. If they were in different houses, they may notice he was gone from a few classes but not that he was out all night. He could easily say he skipped breakfast or dinner to study etc. The only one that might be in a different house is Peter - he just wanted to be in with the "cool" crowd. Lily's house- I'm not sure of. Missing the big black dog! Lynn From EvilNuff at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 18:56:18 2003 From: EvilNuff at yahoo.com (evilnuff) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:56:18 -0000 Subject: Is Lily Voldemort daughter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > Me: > But it doesn't go against canon. Your reference above misquotes that > part of CoS. DD says that V is the last *ancestor* to Slytherin. > That choice of wording (versus heir or descendent) gives a much > different meaning to the statement. I've wondered for a while if there's any possibility of current day characters at the end of the story travelling back in time and actually becoming some of the historic figures? Example: we know Dumbledore has red hair, he also seems to know darn near everything that HRH know. What if Dumbledore is in fact Ron who is all grown up and travelled back in time to become Dumbledore? That would explain how he knows all sorts of things that happen around the trio. It would also fit JKR's comment that one of the students becomes a teacher later on. What if some combination of Harry and co are actually Gryffendor (Neville), Ravenclaw(Hermione), Hufflepuff(Luna?), and Slytherin (Harry)? Example: Lily could be V's daughter which would make Harry a descendant of Slytherin. If at the end of book 7 Harry and co travel back in time and Harry becomes Slytherin then V would be Slytherin's ancestor as well? I realize this is um...rather far-fetched but its just a thought. :) -Nuff From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 19:27:05 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:27:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Lupin can't be evil! In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805102254.03578d30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030805192705.99984.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75540 music4masses wrote: At 08:53 PM 8/4/2003, you wrote: Then, there's plot reasons why it doesn't jive that he's evil. Why didn't he sabotage Harry's rescue at the beginning? He was perfectly positioned to do so. Why did he jump between Malfoy and Harry/Neville during the "battle" scene? He could've been hurt. He then saved Harry from crossing the Veil. Then there's the all too real reaction to Sirius's death. That was the opposite of contrived. Misguided and weak at times? Yes. Evil? Sure doesn't seem so. There's a ton of arguments I'm leaving out. Just a bit of backup to Melanie, who went out on a limb. Eowynn 24: IMO I haven't got any cannon to back this up. I do have to agree with Pippin o this issue, as much as I hate the fact that lupin is evil, I believe that he is. 1)If he is a spy for Voldy, now is too soon to reveal it. Plus there are eight other order members with him, some of which happen to be aurors, and Moody (His magic eye would be a trick to get past). I don't believe that he could have sabotaged the mission if he tried. He is evil, but not stupid, this is someone who thinks ahead before he does anything. 2)Why did he save Harry and Neville? I have two thoughts on this. First, they have the prophecy, if Malfoy gets to reckless in his attacks he risks destroying the prophecy (which happens anyway right after Lupin steps in, unknown by anyone but Harry and Neville) which would make for one very upset Voldy. Lupin was protecting the prophecy not Harry and Neville. Second, he saved Harry from both Malfoy and the veil because harry was a marked man. Voldy believed he needed the prophecy to learn haw to destroy potter. Voldy knew that they were connected, he probably feared that is Harry died then he would die. Killing harry was something that Voldy wanted to do for himself. Lupin was being the faithful servant and saving harry so that Voldy could kill him. So staying with this scene in the book, why didn't Lupin run after harry when he got free of his grasp? I am sure he would have been able to catch up to him quit easily. If he cared for harry as much as he seems to, why did he lat Harry chase after a DE, Bellatrix, one who would kill Harry the first chance she got? Just some thoughts Eowynn_24 Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:03:58 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:03:58 -0000 Subject: Number of Students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "losangelis" wrote: > Here is a breakdown, based on the website I listed above. Ravenclaw - "Rationals" (NT) - 5-7% of the population, thus around 6 students sorted in Harry's year. Gryffindor - "Idealists" (NF) - 8-10% of the population, thus the 8- 10 students sorted in Harry's year. Slytherin - "Artisans" (SP) - 35 - 40% of the populations, so figure around 37 Slytherins in Harry's year. Hufflepuff - "Guardians" (SJ) - 40-45% of the populaton, so figure around 42 Hufflepuffs in Harry's year. > I doubt it. I doubt there's that much difference in the size of the houses. If there were then Ravenclaw and Gryffindore would have almost no chance of winning the house cup. Even if the average Hufflepuff only earned a net 5 points a year, the average Gryffindor would have to earn 21 points just to be even. I seriously doubt that the average Gyffindor earns more than four times as many points as the average Hufflepuff. Besides, I find the idea that there are four time as many people who are "hard-working, loyal, patient, and just" as there are who are "brave and chivalrous" to be a bit difficult to believe. Just because Helga took the "left overs" doesn't mean Hufflepuff house does today. Salazar took only purebloods, but his house takes half-bloods on occassion at least. Godric took only those with "brave deeds to their name." I seriouly doubt every kid ever sorted into Gryffindor had done brave deeds at 11. I think the kids get sorted into which ever house suits them best. There is no default. bibphile From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:01:03 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:01:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805220104.55909.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75542 > > > Dan wrote: > > Rowling does not pronounce the T, I know. In > several audio > > interviews, notably the Diane Rehm Show, Rowling > pronounced it VOL- > > duh-more. On top of that, the Scholastic website's > pronunciation > > guide says VOL-duh-more. > > > > In an interview, Rowling said that she pronounces > it VOL-duh-more, > > but that she thought she was the only one who did. > I would contend > > that she's the only one whose pronunciation > matters. > > > > So why did they say it differently in the film? > Even Jim Dale, who > > said VOL-duh-more in the audio versions of books > 1-4, started > > pronouncing the T for book 5. Why oh why? Buttercup: Thanks for clearing that up. I, too, was wondering why Jim Dale gave it a silent "t" in books 1-4, then changed the pronunciation in book 5. You're right. JKR is the author, and she would know how it's pronounced. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 21:42:18 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:42:18 -0000 Subject: Sirius a Slytherin? Convince me! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75543 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > I've seen a number of posts suggesting that each of the Marauders > > belonged to a different house. > Laura > > > Well, I don't know if this has already been said, but there is a kind > of parallel with the second generation (that is the group of Harry, > Ron, hermione and Neville). If you think about it, the Sorting Hat > considered to put Harry in Slytherin and Hermione in Ravenclaw. We > don't know about Neville but it is said that the hat took a long time > to decide where to put him (maybe it was considering putting him in > Huppelpuff). Ron was clearly a Gryffindor. But in the end, the Hat > put them all in Gryffindor. Maybe something similar happened with the > marauders (they could all have been sorted in different houses but > the hat thought it was better to "unite" them in the same house...) > > Mali Laura: What an elegant theory-I wish I'd thought of it! It makes a great deal of sense. There's only one problem-Peter. He never shows the slightest promise of becoming a true Gryffindor (as Neville does even in PS when he stands up to the Trio). In fact, it looks like he jumps to LV at the first hint of pressure. Maybe his family were Gryffindors, so the hat gave him the benefit of the doubt. But it was wrong this time around. Oh well, once in 1000 years isn't too bad. Except that the results were catastrophic...I still really like the theory though. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 21:29:49 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:29:49 -0000 Subject: More legal questions (was:Re:Is the wizarding world a democracy?) In-Reply-To: <20030805201508.8723.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Trevor Peterson wrote: On that note, the WW is a democracy if the people elect the minister of magic or the wizengamot, otherwise no. And in my humble opinion, even if the WW is a democracy technically, it is not a good one > > laxer > > Laura Between this discussion and the one about the ownership of Grimmauld Place, it sounds like the next textbook JKR needs to write is a legal analysis of the WW. There are lots of intriguing questions she could answer about wizards and their relationship to muggle law. Are they bound by either civil or criminal law? It doesn't seem that any criminal investigation was started after the deaths of the muggles Peter killed. If the muggle police were searching for Sirius after his escape, what would they have done with him if they'd caught him? On the civil side, could a muggle inherit from a wizard or witch and vice-versa? How exactly do meetings between the Prime Minister and the Minister of Magic happen? Does the rest of the muggle government know about the Ministry? If it's the Wizengamot that's the decision- making body in the WW, how are members selected? If it's an inherited position, what happens to the seat if the family dies out or doesn't want to serve? And on and on. This makes my lawyer's soul happy, and I don't even practice! > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From the_jarveys_shall_rule at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 21:26:24 2003 From: the_jarveys_shall_rule at hotmail.com (Vik) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:26:24 -0000 Subject: Harry's 16th birthday In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75545 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Monday, August 04, 2003, 6:20:58 PM, Scott wrote: > > > > > I was thinking that too! When Sirius gave the bike to Hagrid he > said > > > he wouldn't be needing it anymore, and I doubt Hagrid got rid of > it. I > > > expect it's another gift he'll have coming in bk6. Climb on, Cho, > > > let's go! > > > > I doubt, it, unless it's a really small type of motorcycle. > > > > You have to be 18 to get your licence for large bikes and > > cars in Europe. > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Susanne > license? who needs a license in the wizard world? a motorbike would > make it really nice on harry, especially one that can fly! Lori But wouldn't a flying motorbike be illegal as a charmed muggle thing, like Mr Weasley's car and flying carpets? I'd assume that wizards do need to drive(ministry cars) so they would probably have licenses, and the age for driving would probably be the UK one, which is 17 I think. That's when my brother started learning. I wonder why the ministry gets away with having charmed cars and ordinary wizards don't. Such double standards. Vik From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 21:23:48 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:23:48 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "biggladolaf" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > GEO: > > The guy has red eyes I think anyone smart enough would have known > it > > was Voldemort. > > > Who cares if he is recognized? First of all everyone thinks he's > dead. And anyone who did recognize him would run away screaming. If > anyone reported seeing him he would be dismissed as a lunatic. > Olaf, glad and big That's the point, he didn't want to be seen. Harry was to get the prophecy, and then die at the hands of the death eaters waiting for him. No one would be the wiser about Lord Moldywart being back with the living. And Harry would have still been the lunatic everyone thought he was. But because Harry and friends did such a good job of staying alive, those plans were messed up. And Lord what's his face had to show himself so he could back up his dung eater friends. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 21:09:22 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 21:09:22 -0000 Subject: the philosopher's stone In-Reply-To: <3F2FF123.000001.57261@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > *Yaira* > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" > wrote: > > If Nicholas Flamel is 600+ years old, Dumbledore must also be > around > > that age. They made the stone together, presumably before Flamel > was > > maybe 100 or something so how old is Dumbledore and has he been > > taking the elixir too? > > > Me - > > Actually according to JKR Dumbledore is about 150. The books say that he > worked with Flamel *not* that he discovered the Stone with him. The Stone > was, presumably, an independent discovery of Flamel's long before Dumbledore > was born. Since JKR says there is no higher education in the wizarding world > I wonder If Dumbledore was a kind of apprentice to the older and, presumably > more learned, Flamel? > > K Flamel was the only known creator of the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone. So does DD know how to create one for himself now? Since he worked closely with Flamel. And could it be used against the Dark Lord if one was created? From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 5 20:09:43 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 20:09:43 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75548 Love you theroy of Magical inheritance. Perhaps it overrides the Fidelius Charm, which would be interesting. I can not see Narcissa letting the Order use her uncles family home for the purpose of destroying LV and the Death Eaters. Especially as she is married to one, not unless she has some kind of alterior motive we know nothing about yet. But then that wouldn't surprise me as we know Rowlings loves to suprises on us, and we know so little about Narcissa Black Malfoy. Mandy From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 5 22:10:35 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 00:10:35 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Number of Students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308060010.35082.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75549 losangelis: <> Say, like 125 for the newcomers in GoF. Say 100. Now go to the description of the sorting in GoF: Starting with Ackerley, Stewart -R [Harry looks Cho while he seats] Baddock, Malcolm -S [Harry looks] Branstone, Eleanor- H Cauldwell, Owen -H Creevey, Dennis -G [the last tree in a row] [Creevey reception, brief] [Harry looks] Dobbs, Emma [continues] boys and girls... [McGonadall calls L] [Two lines of Ron & Nick] Madley, Laura -H [Another two lines of Ron & Nick] McDonald, Natalie [A line for nick and a small remark] Pritchard, Graham -S Quirke, Orla - R [To end with...] Whitby, Kevin- H I count eleven. Do you think there is time in the few pauses to sort 89 more children, even at a 30 seconds each rate? But please refute me, I've got a translated copy so I can't know for certain the exact timing. just a thought, silmariel From tania_schr at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 22:16:16 2003 From: tania_schr at hotmail.com (tania_schr) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:16:16 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/4/2003 7:06:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > tania_schr at h... writes: > > > I think you are pronouncing it right if you are reading in English. > > That is how everyone I know (including myself) pronounces it. I > > have several friends reading the books in Spanish, and like all > > words in Spanish, every vowel is pronounced so it sounds a little > > more like "serious". > > SEER-ee-us is the correct pronunciation. If you check out the Scholastic > website, they have a LOVELY audio pronunciation guide. > > Sherrie > Thank you! I did investigate further last night and realized I was probably wrong. I was going to ask about how it was pronounced on the tapes, but I noticed this morning that was already answered. I will also check out the Scholastic website, that could help me with some other pronouncations I am now doubting! :) Tania From susannacedric at passagen.se Tue Aug 5 19:43:58 2003 From: susannacedric at passagen.se (susannacedric) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:43:58 -0000 Subject: Augustus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arioth1" wrote: > OK. I tried doing a search of the archives on this subject, but came > up empty-handed. > > Did anyone else notice there were two characters (albeit both minor > characters) named Augustus in OOP-Augustus Rookwood-DE and Augustus > Pye-Trainee Healer. I didn't think JKR ever reused names. I can't > think of any other characters that have the same first names. Am I > forgetting some? Is there any significance to this, or am I just > being overly analytical. > > Any ideas or info would be greatly appreciated. > > Arioth There are two named Tom aswell. Tom Riddle and the barman in the Leaky Cauldron. Susanna From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 19:41:54 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:41:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805194154.34733.qmail@web20512.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75552 Geoff Bannister wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, music4masses wrote: > > I don't recall Voldemort's name being on the prophecy bell jar, so why > would he try to get it himself? The prophecy orb was labelled "Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter". Presumably there was only one Dark Lord..... Geoff >>> OOtP bottom pg 786 US edition: "Get it himself?" shrieked Bellatrix..."The Dark Lord walk into the Ministry of Magic, when they are so sweetly ignoring his return? The Dark Lord, reveal himself to the Aurors, when at the moment they are wasting their time on my dear cousin?" Voldy wanted to have a glorious sneak attack on the WW. He needed someone else to get the prophecy co that he could remain in hiding until the time to strike was right. Eowynn Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lbiles at flash.net Tue Aug 5 22:24:02 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:24:02 -0000 Subject: Hermione's rude comment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75554 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > We get no indication that Hermione is wrong for this comment. She > doesn't learn from it and all we get is the shocked reaction from > Lavendar or Parvati (do they even have separate personalities > anymore?) But really for their to be a moral point ot this comment > Rowling needs to take it and bring it back to us with some sort of > reaction that affects the reader or Hermione to show it is wrong. > She really never does this. There is no action/reaction in the text > to suggest a moral point to this line. Or at least I don't think > there is. > > Golly. I think the lesson for Hermione came when she lured Umbridge into the forest with the express intent of having the Centaurs "take care" of Umbridge for her. She endangered her own and Harry's lives by underestimating the Centaurs in her attempt at manipulating them which they saw through. She *knew* that Umbridge would offend them because of her reaction to "half-breeds" but did not realize that she was guilty as well, just not as overtly, as indicated in her conversation with Ronan (pg 756 US). Harry notes that in her attempts to explain herself "she seemed to be going from bad to worse". The Centaurs had already begun to carry them off "to pay the consequences" when Grawp arrived to save them. I think that not only did she learn from that incident but that she was somewhat humbled by it as well. leb From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:27:03 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:27:03 -0000 Subject: the philosopher's stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Flamel was the only known creator of the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's > Stone. So does DD know how to create one for himself now? Since he > worked closely with Flamel. And could it be used against the Dark > Lord if one was created? I don't believe that Dumbledore would create another stone even if he could. They destroyed the one Flamel created because Voldemort was after it. Quirrel/Voldemort proved the stone is not really safe anywhere. Even if they could find a way to use it against Voldemort, it would be more trouble than it was worth as Voldemort and every other person desiring immortality and wealth would try to get their hands on it. It would just be a nuisance, I think. KathyK From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:31:24 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:31:24 -0000 Subject: JKR and reusing names (was: Augustus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75556 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susannacedric" wrote: Did anyone else notice there were two characters (albeit both minor characters) named Augustus in OOP-Augustus Rookwood-DE and Augustus Pye-Trainee Healer. I didn't think JKR ever reused names. I can't think of any other characters that have the same first names. Am I forgetting some? Is there any significance to this, or am I just being overly analytical. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arioth1" wrote: There are two named Tom aswell. Tom Riddle and the barman in the Leaky Cauldron. Me: Actually, the usual way in which she reuses names is by going the father/son route. We had two Tom Riddles, one a Muggle father and one an evil spawn of a son; we had two Barty Crouches, each one more vile than the last, and Harry himself bears his father's first name as his middle name, as we finally have confirmed when he has his trial in OotP. Frankly, I'm surprised that we don't see more names reused in this manner in the HP books, but authors have a certain amount of control over their worlds to avoid this when it would be undesirable (although I've seen authors of books that aren't fantasy use this for good comic effect when walking into a pre-school classroom and discovering that all of the children are named either Brandon or Brittany ). JKR also stated that she didn't want to give her son, who was named David Gordon Rowling Murray, a name she'd used in any of the books (or intended to use) but she did anyway, and not great names, from the perspective of how they appear in the HP series. Gordon, for a start, is the name of one of Dudley's thug friends. We don't see anyone named "David" exactly, but a nickname, Davey, does appear. We're told that Davey Gudgeon was hit rather violently by the Whomping Willow (I'm trying to remember properly, but I think something awful happened, like one of his eyes being put out). And as for reusing names, Davey happens to have the same last name as Gladys Gudgeon, Gilderoy Lockhart's biggest fan (even after he's been in hospital for several years, as we learn in OotP). If Davey is related to Gladys (and I think it's a pretty good bet he is), the Gudgeon family aren't exactly shaping up to look like geniuses, are they? Evidently JKR forgot about poor Davey when naming her son. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 22:30:50 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:30:50 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Motorbike (WAS Re: Harry's 16th birthday) In-Reply-To: <20030805012058.45271.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75557 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > Geoff Bannister wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kneazelkid" > wrote: > I was thinking that Harry might receive the giant flying mototcycle on which Hagrid delivered him to the Dursley's (It belonged to Sirius). Wouldn't that be cool? Harry on a motorcycle -- then all he'd need was a leather cloak (har har) > > ------------------- > > I was thinking that too! When Sirius gave the bike to Hagrid he said he wouldn't be needing it anymore, and I doubt Hagrid got rid of it. I expect it's another gift he'll have coming in bk6. Climb on, Cho, let's go! > > owlery2003 > Me: I'm re-reading PS/SS, and Hagrid doesn't say anything about Sirius not needing his bike anymore. In fact, he says "I'll be takin' Sirius his bike back" at the end of Chapter 1 when he, Dumbledore and Professor McGonagall go their separate ways after dropping Harry off on the doorstep. So, at that point, Hagrid doesn't know anything about whether Sirius will need it anymore. Is there something in one of the later books (don't have them with me) that specifically addresses Sirius saying he won't be needing the bike anymore? Just wanting to set the record straight.... or get straightened out, myself ;) Shirley From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:20:37 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:20:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Did It Take So Long For Someone To Follow Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805222037.23673.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75559 When Harry goes after Bellatrix after she's killed Sirius, why did it take so long for someone to follow him? Lupin yells after him, but Harry declares he's going to kill her because she killed Sirius. At this point, I was under the impression that most of the Death Eaters were incapacitated. Surely Lupin could have followed Harry. It took awhile for Dumbledore to show up and save the day. I know the obvious answer is because we wouldn't have had that great scene. Or maybe Dumbledore wanted Harry to go after her alone. Maybe he wanted Harry to grow up and learn to fight on his own, to prepare him for future battles. Any ideas? ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:36:25 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:36:25 -0000 Subject: JKR hints at secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75560 Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; I have already made one comment on this, that what I found interesting was at the end of the movie. It was where Crabbe started to stand up, but Malfoy grabbed his robe and made him sit back down. I also wanted to add this little bit, if you let the movie go through ALL the credits, at the VERY, VERY end, there is one more scene, it is about Lockhart. It is quite funny, and I will let everyone who has not seen it, go and see it. (I found it by mistake, was watching the movie while on the computer and before I could turn the movie off, I saw it.) Fred Waldrop From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:38:21 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:38:21 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Motorbike (WAS Re: Harry's 16th birthday) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > > > Me: > I'm re-reading PS/SS, and Hagrid doesn't say anything about Sirius > not needing his bike anymore. In fact, he says "I'll be takin' > Sirius his bike back" at the end of Chapter 1 when he, Dumbledore and > Professor McGonagall go their separate ways after dropping Harry off > on the doorstep. So, at that point, Hagrid doesn't know anything > about whether Sirius will need it anymore. Is there something in one > of the later books (don't have them with me) that specifically > addresses Sirius saying he won't be needing the bike anymore? > > Just wanting to set the record straight.... or get straightened out, > myself ;) > > Shirley In PoA, when Hagrid, McGonagall, Fudge, etc. are in the Three Broomsticks unwittingly revealing to Harry that Sirius betrayed his parents, Hagrid tells them that he met Sirius at Godric's Hollow. Sirius wants to take Harry. Hagrid refuses and Sirius gives him his motorcycle telling Hagrid that he won't need it anymore. KathyK From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Aug 5 22:40:48 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:40:48 -0000 Subject: Why Did It Take So Long For Someone To Follow Harry? In-Reply-To: <20030805222037.23673.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > When Harry goes after Bellatrix after she's killed > Sirius, why did it take so long for someone to follow > him? Lupin yells after him, but Harry declares he's > going to kill her because she killed Sirius. At this > point, I was under the impression that most of the > Death Eaters were incapacitated. Surely Lupin could > have followed Harry. It took awhile for Dumbledore to > show up and save the day. > > I know the obvious answer is because we wouldn't have > had that great scene. > > Or maybe Dumbledore wanted Harry to go after her > alone. Maybe he wanted Harry to grow up and learn to > fight on his own, to prepare him for future battles. > > Any ideas? I think DD wanted Harry to go after Bella so as to draw LV into the frey. Jennifer > > > > ===== > Buttercup > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Tue Aug 5 22:46:38 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:46:38 -0000 Subject: JKR and reusing names (was: Augustus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susannacedric" > wrote: > Did anyone else notice there were two characters (albeit both minor > characters) named Augustus in OOP-Augustus Rookwood-DE and Augustus > Pye-Trainee Healer. I didn't think JKR ever reused names. I can't > think of any other characters that have the same first names. Am I > forgetting some? Is there any significance to this, or am I just > being overly analytical. > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arioth1" wrote: > There are two named Tom aswell. Tom Riddle and the barman in the > Leaky Cauldron. > > Me: > > Actually, the usual way in which she reuses names is by going the > father/son route. We had two Tom Riddles, one a Muggle father and > one an evil spawn of a son; we had two Barty Crouches, each one more > vile than the last, and Harry himself bears his father's first name > as his middle name, as we finally have confirmed when he has his > trial in OotP. Frankly, I'm surprised that we don't see more names > reused in this manner in the HP books, but authors have a certain > amount of control over their worlds to avoid this when it would be > undesirable (although I've seen authors of books that aren't fantasy > use this for good comic effect when walking into a pre-school > classroom and discovering that all of the children are named either > Brandon or Brittany ). > > JKR also stated that she didn't want to give her son, who was named > David Gordon Rowling Murray, a name she'd used in any of the books > (or intended to use) but she did anyway, and not great names, from > the perspective of how they appear in the HP series. Gordon, for a > start, is the name of one of Dudley's thug friends. We don't see > anyone named "David" exactly, but a nickname, Davey, does appear. > We're told that Davey Gudgeon was hit rather violently by the > Whomping Willow (I'm trying to remember properly, but I think > something awful happened, like one of his eyes being put out). And > as for reusing names, Davey happens to have the same last name as > Gladys Gudgeon, Gilderoy Lockhart's biggest fan (even after he's > been in hospital for several years, as we learn in OotP). If Davey > is related to Gladys (and I think it's a pretty good bet he is), the > Gudgeon family aren't exactly shaping up to look like geniuses, are > they? Evidently JKR forgot about poor Davey when naming her son. > > --Barb > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent > http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb Two more: Nicholas Flamel and Sir Nicholas (Gryffendor ghost!) Jennifer From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:38:13 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lilly's Green Almond Shaped Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030805223813.11210.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75565 In OOP, again, Lilly's "startlingly green almond-shaped eyes - Harry's eyes" are mentioned. I know this has been discussed before, but has anyone come up with the theory that the Dark Lord will have to somehow replace his scarlet, slit-pupiled eyes for Harry's lovely green ones? ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 22:39:10 2003 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 15:39:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sirius, Voldemort and Firenze pronunciations In-Reply-To: <1060057759.8205.46536.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030805223910.71300.qmail@web20511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75566 Message: 17 Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 03:23:16 -0000 From: "linlou43" Subject: Re: Sirius, Voldemort, and Firenze pronunciations ...The guide does not give Voldemort. It just uses "he-who-must-not-be-named". I actually just listened to books one and two while on vacation these last two weeks for the first time. (Jim Dale) Previously, I had only read them. It struck me as stange to not hear the T pronounced in Voldemort because if I didn't already know it was there there would be a letter missing for Tom Marvolo Riddle at the end of COS. For those of you who heard the books before you read them, was this an issue for you? Just wondering. ************************* The "T" wouldn't be missing from Tom's name anagram simply because it isn't pronounced. Many words contain silent letters, but to be spelled correctly, they must be included. Just look at my name.....! AF --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lbiles at flash.net Tue Aug 5 22:59:25 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:59:25 -0000 Subject: the Fat Lady In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75567 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katrinawitch" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dublinaaireland" > wrote: > > I was just watching a show called Hamish Macbeth (Scottish show > first aired around the late 90's), and one character said, '...it > ain't *over* till the fat lady sings!', and it made me ask the > question, does the fat lady in the picture frame sing?? I can't > remember and am about to scan through 5 books. I've just completed a > search and couldnt find anything relating to this on HP4GU...Has it > been mentioned before?? > > D > > Hi D! > > "It Ain't Over...." is an expression dating from the 50's/60's. I'm > not sure who said it, but I think it's sports-related, and it's been > credited at times to Yogi Berra (a former baseball player who went > on to be a commentator). It refers to the fat viking ladies in old- > time operas, and I guess it means, "it ain't over till it's over". > So I don't think that Hogwarts' Fat Lady sings. > > Kat Doesn't she get tipsy and sing together with someone from another painting who is visiting in her frame during the Christmas festivities? I can't remember which year that would have been during though so this probably is no help at all. leb From prongs at marauders-map.net Tue Aug 5 23:04:55 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (Silver Stag) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:04:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Name References: Message-ID: <025401c35ba5$fc9c50a0$0201a8c0@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 75568 My apologies for the one-liner, if it turns out to be one. Jim Dale pronounces it like serious, as does my screen reading software. I've always pronounced it that way, too, since it just seems pointless to have a silent I, as you would have if Sirius was pronounced Sirus. Betty, who's luckily avoided the one-liner ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pruneau" To: Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 10:54 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' Name > Joe "cubs99111" wrote: > > Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius pronounced like > the word Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name > in my head as Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name > I guess I would subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly > I always read prefects as perfects. >>> > > > The Scholastic pronunciation guide gives the same pronunciation for > Sirius as serious. But I don't know if that is canon. > > Pruneau > > > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > From hpotter342 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 23:05:15 2003 From: hpotter342 at yahoo.com (hpotter342) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:05:15 -0000 Subject: Aberforth FOUND! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75569 While discussing the pureblood tree and various other relationships, we got stuck on Dumbledore's brother. He's been mentioned twice so far, and something told us that there must be more to him than we're being told. Then we began musing over the prophecy. Right now we don't know who the death eater is that over heard it, all we know is that they were thrown out halfway through. Was it because they were causing problems? Because they were a known DE? Or was it because of the prophecy? Either way, somebody must have known what was going on in order to throw them out. So who could that have been?? When Harry enters the Hog's Head for the first time he says, "The Hog's Head bar comprised one small, dingy, and very dirty room that smeeled strongly of something that might have been goats." -Remember in GoF Dumbledore says, " My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat." Then Harry sees the bartender, and describes him as, "a grumpy looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and a beard." Possible Dumbledore look alike?? It would explain how the death eater got thrown out. If Aberforth, a member of the Order, noticed the prophecy begin and realized a known DE was listening in, he would be in a perfect position to keep a look out! We might not know why now, but it seems to us that having Dumbledore's brother so close would have to be really important. Any thoughts?? ~Mariette and Niki~ Thoughts from The Noble and Most Ancient House of Pancakes From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 23:14:34 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:14:34 -0000 Subject: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75570 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > What makes you think Ron is vindictive? I haven't seen him (AFAIK) > seek revenge against someone who has pissed him off. In GoF he was > very angry with Harry but his way of dealing with that was to simply > not speak to Harry. By the fact that he tried to curse Malfoy when Malfoy called Hermione a mudblood and the numerous times he tried or got into arguments or fights with the Slytherns. > If Ron believes that there is something going on between his two > friends, he may be very hurt and may withdraw from them, but I'd be > quite suprised if he acts on that and decides it would be worth going > after them somehow. Doubt it. Harry might withdraw from his friends if he got into an argument with them like in POA with Hermione and the Firebolt where he stopped talking to her while Ron on the other hand went on insulting her at every chance when he thought Crookshanks ate Scabbers. If anything Ron is one of those people that wear their emotions and would do something if he feels wronged. From lbiles at flash.net Tue Aug 5 23:25:12 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:25:12 -0000 Subject: Marauders Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arioth1" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tallulah_sam" > wrote: > > Hello! My first post so very sorry if this has been mentioned and > > sorted out before but here goes anyway! In PoA why didn't Harry or > > Fred and George ever see Peter Pettigrew on the marauders map? Lupin saw both Peter and Sirius so we know it shows animagi.... any ideas or theories?? > Arioth replied: > ***snip**** > My other thought, there must be tons of names on that map if it shows everyone, wherever they are in the castle and grounds. So if you weren't looking for someone specifically, or that person was not in the area you were scanning, it would be difficult to notice that one name. leb: I always got the impression that the map only showed the relevant portion that the user wanted to see or where they actually were at the time of use. When Harry used it in the room of requirement he saw that general area and the areas around it. When he was using it to secretly access the hidden passages to Hogsmeade he only saw those areas around the passage. If it showed every single person in every room of every floor of an entire castle as well as the grounds, it would be so jumbled as to be useless. From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 23:28:03 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:28:03 -0000 Subject: Aberforth FOUND! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hpotter342" wrote: > When Harry enters the Hog's Head he says, "The Hog's Head bar comprised one small, dingy, and very dirty > room that smeeled strongly of something that might have been goats." -Remember in GoF Dumbledore says, " My own brother,Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat." Then Harry sees the bartender, and describes him as, "a grumpy looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and a beard." Possible Dumbledore look alike?? It would explain how the > death eater got thrown out. If Aberforth, a member of the Order, > noticed the prophecy begin and realized a known DE was listening in, > he would be in a perfect position to keep a look out! We might not > know why now, but it seems to us that having Dumbledore's brother so > close would have to be really important. Any thoughts?? ****************** Wow! Now THAT is a nice, possible and VERY JKR theory. The type of JKR clues that comes alive later on, like Hagrid's motorcicle. I am with you on that one, even if I hadn't even contemplated the thought, now that you said, it kinda makes sense, doesn't it? I will keep an eye on next book! Well spotted! Nineve. From music4masses at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 23:35:03 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (Erin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:35:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Lupin can't be evil! In-Reply-To: <20030805192705.99984.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805102254.03578d30@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030805153808.00b91008@pop.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75573 At 12:27 PM 8/5/2003 -0700, you wrote: >music4masses wrote: >At 08:53 PM 8/4/2003, you wrote: > >So staying with this scene in the book, why didn't Lupin run after harry >when he got free of his grasp? I am sure he would have been able to catch >up to him quit easily. If he cared for harry as much as he seems to, why >did he lat Harry chase after a DE, Bellatrix, one who would kill Harry the >first chance she got? > >Just some thoughts > >Eowynn_24 Hmmm...I've got a pretty open mind, but the fact that there's no canon with which to make sturdy, and therefore viable, Lupin-is-evil arguments is telling. Not to mention it would be contrived, as we have one former friend of James as a traitor. Rowling's already been down that road. In the case of Peter, we already knew Scabbers was missing a toe and living beyond his years. We just didn't know why. There's no such evidence for Lupin. I guess I need to see indicators, and not just assertions based on the fact that Rowling didn't specifically say otherwise. Lupin stopping Harry from following Sirius because he's Voldemort's faithful servant. I'm not sure in the text where that idea comes from. Did he give Malfoy a knowing smirk, or anything? No,his voice broke and speaking seemed to cause pain--a very real, human response I think can be taken at face value. I'd be surprised if he did try to follow Harry, since his response was emotional. It's more likely that he told Dumbledore, who arrives on the scene without any of the others. He had been busy containing the DEs. Did he see Harry run? Doesn't seem so. Besides, the scene with Bellatrix and Harry was important and had to happen. Just too many logical explanations justifying Lupin's benign and innocuous behavior. Also, Lupin would want Harry in the Order if he was a bad guy, if only to keep close tabs, but he insisted otherwise. He also stressed the importance of occlumency. Logically, this does not suggest evil. The list goes on. I guess I don't see anything remotely suggesting Lupin may be evil that can't be better explained to the contrary with supporting text. Now, maybe Book 6 will bring some new spin entirely, but I doubt it based on reasons already mentioned in previous posts. I'll keep an open mind just in case... Erin From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 23:44:36 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:44:36 -0000 Subject: Crouch Junior, which house?(was: Sirius a Slytherin?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75574 wrote: > > > I've seen a number of posts suggesting that each of the Marauders belonged to a different house. > > Laura ************* There's only one problem-Peter. He never shows the > slightest promise of becoming a true Gryffindor (as Neville does even in PS when he stands up to the Trio). In fact, it looks like he > jumps to LV at the first hint of pressure. *************** Well, the Hat has told Harry that he was absolutelly sure of his final decision, and that he never has been wrong. Also DD says that what makes Harry a Gryffindor and not a Slytherin are his choices. Do anyone know which house Crouch Junior was on? It is not necessarily all Slytherins that are D Eaters, are they? the fact that you are in Gryffindor doesn't make you a hero or a goody-two-shoes. Look at Percy: prefect, head-boy, humungous big head. He is an idiot. I hope he comes to his senses, but honestly, if he doesn't, he could easilly become a greater idiot and a DE. Why not? Same for Peter, he doesn't actually fit in any house: he isn't clever, brave, good or ambicious. He is a selfish "man", who fights only for his own survival. I hope he does horribly. Nineve. From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Tue Aug 5 23:55:33 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:55:33 -0000 Subject: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75575 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote- > What makes you think Ron is vindictive? Greatelderone wrote- > By the fact that he tried to curse Malfoy when Malfoy called Hermione > a mudblood and the numerous times he tried or got into arguments or > fights with the Slytherns. Now me- That was a simple reaction to someone throwing a derogatory remark at his friend. And, if I remember correctly, eveyrone else acted the same way; granted they didn't all try to hex Malfoy, but they were on the verge of it. Plus, *everyone* gets into fights with the Slythrins, it's part of their daily routine. How about at the end of GoF on the train when not only Ron, but HHF&G hex MC&G? Or in OotP Fred (or was it George, or both? don't remember) and Harry get into a fist fight with Malfoy and Flint? If those are your reasons for labeling Ron as vindictive, then you might as well throw everyone else into that pot. -Maritza From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Tue Aug 5 23:56:46 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:56:46 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Real School Activity(was: N. of Students at Hogwarts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" > wrote: > > James" wrote: > > > We din't know numbers for all the houses. Logically there would > be> > more people in some houses than others > > > I think we need to refer back to Harry again. We see the WW > through ... and this must be true with the students. The boys in his > dormitory feature heavily, others barely mentioned. > > Del > ****************** > Do we remember every single teacher/student of our school? > As far as I can remember, my school had about 500 students, but I can > only recall about 40 of them. That goes for the teachers of subjects > I didn't take too. However, I did have teachers who taught diferent > subjects. And we had diferent teachers for kindergarden, 1st to 4th > years, 5th to 8th and some new ones for the NEWTs. > That goes for students. In my fourth year we were about 25 in class, > by the 5th year we had to be divided in 4 classes, because of the new > students transfered from other schools. It never says that all 1st > years at Hogwarts attend the same class. They could have 1A and 1B, > for example. And if Harry never saw them, apart from the commom room, > how would he know? He is pretty ignorant of the WW. > It seems impossible that there is only 10 (5girls/5 boys) people in > the class. It could be more like 20. They would have the nerds and > the geeks that people always ignore and pretend don't exist. After > all, Harry is the most popular guy in school, he would not be able to > pay attention to everybody. > Now, in my calculations, if there are more or less 20 students per > year, 7 years= 140. > As we all know, there are fewer very clever (Ravenclaw), brave > (Grif), Slimy (Slyth) than there are goody goodies. So Huffelpuf > would get a lot more students. > Remenber that in GoF the visitors were looking for space at the > tables to sit down, and they chose Slyth and Ravenc, we thought that > they chose for similar character, but maybe it was more empty? After > all, Fleur wasn't that clever. > So, we have perhaps, 140 from Grif, 140 Slyth, 140, Rav, maybe > 200/250 Huf= 620/670. Plus people repeating years, like Flint= > 700/750. Plus exchange students doing NEWTs=25xhouse=100 (if Hogwarts > can offer NEWTs, minor schools could finish at OWLs). > We could have easily 850 students. Ok, so there are drop-outs too, > like Fred and George/Hagrid. But there are certainly new students > coming to live in England from other countries too, continuing their > studies at Hogwarts, 100?= 950 students. > I can see JKR's point, as if you really consider school activity, > there is more to it than a child's memory (Harry's). > Sorry to have bored everyone stiff, only trying to discover this big > mistery. > Nineve From subrosax at earthlink.net Tue Aug 5 23:58:57 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:58:57 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Chrissi" wrote: > Dear Cindy, > > all that funny speculations like "Snape is a Vampire", or "James > switched body with Remus" and so on are much more weird and > unbelievable than my odd Gypsy idea. I?d never said I know it, but I > got an impression he maybe could be one. And why not? What?s wrong to > be a Gypsy? Or why shouldn?t he be a pureblood who is unnamed because > of the arrogance of the English purebloods? > > Ok, I hope you now understand better what I was talking about. Once > again: I don?t know it, I just combinated several facts from the books > with antropolgical facts and my knowledge of ethnical sterotypes which > still exists among people and their myths about "weird strangers". > > From my point of view JKR uses stereotypes to teach the readers > lessons. A very good example is the treatment of Snivellus by the > Marauders, who first seemed to be the nice guys, but in fact were > nothing more than nasty bullies (as I thought long before the fith > book released). By the way, I don?t mean Snape maybe had been the > better one, but he has been alone and they were two, if not four, > which made them in my eyes cowards. > > > > > > Several prejudicies are: > > > > > > 1.they are untrustworthy > > > 2.they are curious, sneaking around, try to harm the "others" (people > > > who live at one place) > > > 2.they are very advanced at dark magic, do potions, are good > > > mindreaders, know a lot about the "others" weakness > > > 3.they are filthy, live in mess > > > 4.they praticise vegeance > > > 5.they hold grudge in generations against their enemies > > > 6.they are proud > > > 7.they are "ugly" > > > 8.they strengthend their kids to fight with all resorts they learned > > > by parents and family > > > 9. they are thieves > > > 10. they are jealous because of the good life the "others" seem to > > > have > > > 11.they have no place to live, because they are always drifting from > > > one place to an other > > > 12. they are simply weird, in different ways > > > > > > These are typical stereotypes about the gypsies, and Severus Snape > > > could be of a gypsy origin. Even he lives an assimilated life. > > I'm not a fan of the "Snape is a vampire" theory, but it's proponents at least have some circumstantial evidence to back up the idea. I can't see any reason to suppose that Snape is a gypsy. I haven't seen anything in the books that suggests wizards discriminate on the basis of race or ethnicity. The only thing they seem to care about is the supposed purity of one's wizarding heritage. As for your list of...um, "ethnical" stereotypes, I don't see how any of them fit Snape particularly. Do people find Snape untrustworthy? I'm sure some do. Just taking a shot in the dark here, but it may be because he was (and still may be) a Death Eater! Does he hold grudges? Yeah, but we know at least some of the reasons why and none of them so far include a gypsy feud. Is he an oddball? I don't know. Probably. But aside from these few instances, how does Snape fit into your profile of gypsy stereotypes? I don't see any evidence that he is being discriminated against by snooty English wizards. In my experience, predjudice against gypsies is far more prevelant in Continental Europe, particularly in the East. Even if his parents ran a corner shop, I don't think anyone would care, as long as they had pure wizarding blood. After all, the Malfoys are about as snobby as you can get, and they seem to like Snape just fine. Sorry, but your evidence seems a little thin. Maybe Snape is a gypsy. I could be wrong. But as of now, I find that about as likely as him being a Mexican. Though I do like the idea of Mum and Dad Snape running a corner shop!!! Allyson From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 00:03:52 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:03:52 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: Do people find Snape untrustworthy? > I'm sure some do. Just taking a shot in the dark here, but it may be > because he was (and still may be) a Death Eater! One minor point. People don't distrust Snape because he used to be a Death Eater. Most people don't know he used to be a Death Eater. Ron and Harry at least distrusted him because he was mean. That said, I don't particullary think Snape is a vampire or a Gypsy. I just dont' see any solid evidence. (Not that that stops me with every theory, I admit.) bibphile From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 00:05:45 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:05:45 -0000 Subject: Crouch Junior, which house?(was: Sirius a Slytherin?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75579 > *************** > Well, the Hat has told Harry that he was absolutelly sure of his > final decision, and that he never has been wrong. Also DD says that > what makes Harry a Gryffindor and not a Slytherin are his choices. > Do anyone know which house Crouch Junior was on? It is not > necessarily all Slytherins that are D Eaters, are they? the fact that > you are in Gryffindor doesn't make you a hero or a goody-two-shoes. > Look at Percy: prefect, head-boy, humungous big head. He is an idiot. > I hope he comes to his senses, but honestly, if he doesn't, he could > easilly become a greater idiot and a DE. Why not? > Same for Peter, he doesn't actually fit in any house: he isn't > clever, brave, good or ambicious. He is a selfish "man", who fights > only for his own survival. I hope he does horribly. > Nineve. There is a theroy with some that Barty Crouch Jr. WASN'T actually guilty when he entered Azkaban... but the horrors of the place (and the association with the Lestranges changed him.) It is possible that he only became a servent of Voldemort after the fact. Partially due to the hatred his father showed him. (remember his biggest goal was that voldemort view his as "closer than a son". That said, he very well COULD have been a gryphindore, for example, during school... but life changed his nature. Same thing COULD be said about Peter and others... Since Rowling tells us life is about choices not predetermination nor heritage, I can't beleive that she would be steadfast that a person can not change from the time that the hat sorts you (around 11 years of age) and into adulthood. Goodness knows I am not the same person by a long strech that i was at 11. Unless the hat has powers that can predict the future, or else Rowling suggests that we ARE WHO WE ARE at 11, it is entirely possible for the hat to be "allways right" when sorting them at a young age and for that person to change in nature by adulthood. Just a thought From subrosax at earthlink.net Wed Aug 6 00:11:22 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:11:22 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > One minor point. People don't distrust Snape because he used to be > a Death Eater. Most people don't know he used to be a Death Eater. > Ron and Harry at least distrusted him because he was mean. > > That said, I don't particullary think Snape is a vampire or a > Gypsy. I just dont' see any solid evidence. (Not that that stops > me with every theory, I admit.) > > bibphile Ah well, you may be right about that. I'm not sure it's WIDELY known, though I assumed some people would be aware of the connection, based on the pensieve scenes in GoF. If memory serves, there were inquiries, and Snape's name came up at Karkaroff's (I think) trial. Let no one say I'm not a fan of cockamamie theories, but the gypsy one seems terrribly weak. Allyson From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 00:19:13 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:19:13 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Trust_(was:_Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: me: > One minor point. People don't distrust Snape because he used to be a Death Eater. Most people don't know he used to be a Death > Eater. Ron and Harry at least distrusted him because he was mean. Allyson: > Ah well, you may be right about that. I'm not sure it's WIDELY known, though I assumed some people would be aware of the connection, based on the pensieve scenes in GoF. If memory serves, there were inquiries, and Snape's name came up at Karkaroff's (I >think) trial. > me (bibphile) again: Yes, but we've never seen those people distrust Snape. The only people I can think of that we've seen distrust Snape are Hermione (PS only), Ron, Sirius, and Harry. Harry is the only one of those eho knows Snape used to be a Death Eater (I think) and he distrusted Snape long before he knew that. In fact, he almost seems to trust Snape more since he found out. bibphile From subrosax at earthlink.net Wed Aug 6 00:29:28 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:29:28 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Trust_(was:_Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > me: > > One minor point. People don't distrust Snape because he used to > be a Death Eater. Most people don't know he used to be a Death > > Eater. Ron and Harry at least distrusted him because he was mean. > > Allyson: > > Ah well, you may be right about that. I'm not sure it's WIDELY > known, though I assumed some people would be aware of the > connection, based on the pensieve scenes in GoF. If memory serves, > there were inquiries, and Snape's name came up at Karkaroff's (I > >think) trial. > > > > me (bibphile) again: > > Yes, but we've never seen those people distrust Snape. The only > people I can think of that we've seen distrust Snape are Hermione > (PS only), Ron, Sirius, and Harry. Harry is the only one of those > eho knows Snape used to be a Death Eater (I think) and he distrusted > Snape long before he knew that. In fact, he almost seems to trust > Snape more since he found out. > > bibphile You got me there. Now that you point it out, even Lupin seems to find Snape trustworthy, so you are right. Probably most people do trust Snape, even if it is misplaced. Which side misplaces their trust is of course dependant on whether you believe Snape is truly a spy for Dumbledore or an unrepentant DE. So, I think we can remove one charactaristic for the list of "ethnical" stereotypes. Allyson From tania_schr at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 00:44:11 2003 From: tania_schr at hotmail.com (tania_schr) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:44:11 -0000 Subject: Snape as DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75583 Harry is the only one of those > eho knows Snape used to be a Death Eater (I think) and he distrusted > Snape long before he knew that. In fact, he almost seems to trust > Snape more since he found out. > > bibphile After reading so many posts I was begining to doubt whether or not Harry really knows Snape was a DE. You seem to know the canon very well. Could you (or someone) tell me which chapter I can reread to refresh my memory? Tania From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 6 00:48:12 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 01:48:12 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape as DE References: Message-ID: <3F30504C.000003.99259@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 75584 Tania After reading so many posts I was begining to doubt whether or not Harry really knows Snape was a DE. You seem to know the canon very well. Could you (or someone) tell me which chapter I can reread to refresh my memory? Me Harry's there at the end of GoF when Snape rants at Fudge about the Dark Mark - isn't he? K From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 00:47:47 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:47:47 -0000 Subject: Snape as DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tania_schr" wrote: > After reading so many posts I was begining to doubt whether or not > Harry really knows Snape was a DE. You seem to know the canon very > well. Could you (or someone) tell me which chapter I can reread to > refresh my memory? > Harry finds out when he goes into Dumbledore's pensieve. (US paperback 590) bibphile From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 00:48:29 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:48:29 -0000 Subject: Snape as DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75586 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tania_schr" wrote: > Harry is the only one of those > > eho knows Snape used to be a Death Eater (I think) and he > distrusted > > Snape long before he knew that. In fact, he almost seems to trust > > Snape more since he found out. > > > > bibphile > > After reading so many posts I was begining to doubt whether or not > Harry really knows Snape was a DE. You seem to know the canon very > well. Could you (or someone) tell me which chapter I can reread to > refresh my memory? > > Tania Hope you don't mind me answering. :o) The "Parting of the ways" in GoF, where Snape showed his Dark Mark to Fudge in the hospital and Harry saw it and even before that "The Pensieve" chapter. Alla From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 00:55:48 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:55:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's best interview Message-ID: <17b.1e0d0240.2c61ac14@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75587 In a message dated 8/5/2003 1:58:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, prsawyer at uaa.alaska.edu writes: > I hate to be thick, but could somebody please tell me where I can > find this interview? I've gone through all the posts I can find with > this header, but I can't find mention of, nor link to the actual > interview to which the header refers. I may have just missed it in > all the writing. > Thanks! > Paula. > Paula, here you go: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-connectiontra nsc.html My thanks to TLC for having this! I read it myself recently and found it very interesting, it makes me wonder if she gives away more in her earlier interviews because she isn't this open about things now, IMO. But someone, sorry I forget who, mentioned a different interview and JKR's reaction to the whole deal with Lily's eyes...anyone have a link to that one??? :) ~RSFJenny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meltowne at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 01:05:39 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 01:05:39 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75588 > > > Well, there we have it, folks! LOVED OLD MR ORT. Now, all we > > > have to do is figure out who Old Mr. Ort is or was, and we've > > > got it all solved. Old Mr. Ort will be Voldie's downfall. ;) > > > > BTW, 'Severus Snape' really means 'ASSES NERVE UP' > > > Vector translates to "COVERT"...... If Lord Voldemort "loved old Mr Ort" then maybe Harry's "pet Jay hars Mr Ort" Is Hedwig a Blue Jay in disguise? From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Aug 6 01:15:47 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:15:47 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR's best interview References: <17b.1e0d0240.2c61ac14@aol.com> Message-ID: <008a01c35bb8$44e42ba0$399ecdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75589 ~RSFJenny wrote: > But someone, sorry I forget who, mentioned a different interview and JKR's > reaction to the whole deal with Lily's eyes...anyone have a link to that one??? > :) Ah yes, that would be me. It's a BBC interview. Here's the snippet I was referring to: Now, can I ask you: are there any special wizarding powers in your world that depend on the wizard using their eyes to do something? Bit like... JKR: Why do you want to know this? I just vaguely wondered. JKR: Why? Well because everyone always goes on about how Harry's got Lily Potter's eyes. JKR: Aren't you smart? There is something, maybe, coming about that. I'm going to say no more. Very clever. And the entire interview can be viewed at Mugglenet here: http://www.mugglenet.com/bbcinterview1.shtml Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 01:16:33 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 01:16:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75590 feetmadeofclay wrote,"Contrary to popular belief in the Potterfanverse, teenagers are capable of both compassion and rational thought as well as of selfless behaviour. They do not universally treat each other like dirt. I don't ask that Harry be a saint only that he behave as he would like to be treated. That he understand and accept that Cho is a girl with feelings. His choice to see her as nothing at all, is his own" I feel you're somewhat harsh here. Let me start out by saying I was annoyed at Harry about fifty times in the course of OOP for just the kind of things that you don't like - lashing out at his friends, moodiness, petulance, insensitivity - but I also realized Harry was under stress so fantastic that many adults would crack under the strain. Voldemort's continuous attempts on Harry's life weren't even the worst stress Harry faced. More immediate, and more stressful, was Umbridge's persecution, but the worst was the disbelief and hostility he faced from his fellow students and the public. Add the natural stress of OWL year to the mix. I also cut Harry some slack because his natural instinct, over the years we've known him, is to be nice to people. Many people recognize it and stick with him even when he's unlikeable at the moment. His treatment of Cho was bad, but not inexcusable. He was insensitive when she cried for Cedric and was resentful of Hermione's closeness to Harry, but he could apologize and move on. He still can, actually. As far as unloading on Cho over her sneak friend Marietta Edgecombe, he damn near got expelled or even tossed into Azkaban because of that betrayal. Cho had to expect to take some heat over it. I think Harry's stress is very much reduced now that he is vindicated and no longer has Umbridge's enmity to deal with. He could perhaps even reconnect with Cho if he wanted - she blushed the last time she saw him on the train - but I don't think he will. He's over her. So you're not wrong that kids can and do act compassionately and responsibly, but we've seen Harry do it before. Heck, we see the old Harry emerging again with Luna and her lost possessions. So, after what he's been through, he's the first one that deserves compassion. Jim Ferer From shaw_steven at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 01:33:27 2003 From: shaw_steven at yahoo.com (shaw_steven) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 01:33:27 -0000 Subject: Crouch Junior, which house?(was: Sirius a Slytherin?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" wrote: > > There is a theroy with some that Barty Crouch Jr. WASN'T actually > guilty when he entered Azkaban... but the horrors of the place (and > the association with the Lestranges changed him.) > > It is possible that he only became a servent of Voldemort after the > fact. Partially due to the hatred his father showed him. (remember > his biggest goal was that voldemort view his as "closer than a son". > > That said, he very well COULD have been a gryphindore, for example, > during school... but life changed his nature. > In Goblet of Fire, Barty Crouch Jr. cast the Death Mark spell (morsmordre) at the Quidditch World Cup (QWC). This was before Voldemort rescued him from his father's imperius curse and bespelled Crouch Sr. If only Death Eaters knew how to cast the spell, Crouch Jr. must have learned it before being sent to Azkaban unless you think Winky taught it to him. Therefore Crouch Jr. was most probably a true Death Eeater. Steven Is considering re-reading all canon once again From butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net Wed Aug 6 01:35:35 2003 From: butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net (losangelis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 01:35:35 -0000 Subject: Number of Students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <200308060010.35082.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75592 > silmariel: I count eleven. Do you think there is time in the few pauses to sort 89 more children, even at a 30 seconds each rate? But please refute me, I've got a translated copy so I can't know for certain the exact timing. Me: Oh, trust me, I'm not taking my theory that seriously at all. I found that particular website interesting, and we've tended to err on the side that all houses are created equal...that is, they will all have about the same amount of people per house, per year. The temperament sorter shows that certain personalities are more prevalent than others. If you take the Hufflepuff/Guardians, it could be supposed that most people in the population (45%) fit this particular "house". In other words, these are the honest people of the world...good people, friends, workers, and businessowners. These aren't the people out to change the world, just out to do their fair share and take care of themselves and their own. Conversely, the Slytherin/Artisans are outgoing people who are sensation-based...they want their rewards for their efforts now. They hunger to impact others and may be the cynics of the group. >From our experiences with Slytherins in canon, most Slytherins have few redeeming qualities, or even redeeming people. However, this shows that people can be "slytheriney" without being evil...they are the ones who are looking for more immediate rewards and pleasures. The Gryffindor/Idealist traits have been, of course, pummeled to death in conversation on this and other forums. Idealists are diplomatic leaders, searching for identity and relationships. The website doesn't comment on the work habits of the Idealists, except that they tend to work with people, either in a teacher role, or take on strong political roles. It makes sense to me that, in society, Idealists are rare, and that an overabundance of idealists might make a drastic change in the balance of society. These are our leaders...and too many cooks spoil the broth. The Ravenclaw/Rational was the one that surprised me the most with the small numbers. These are the abstract communicators, autonomous studiers of knowledge. They are the skeptics of the group, looking for reason and explanation. I really thought their numbers would be higher. So let's think a little bit. Let's say these percentages (45/40/10/5) are true in the muggle world, but perhaps a little closer in the wizarding world. Perhaps there are more aspiring to be Ravenclaw-ish with rewards coming to those who know their spells and who have gained OWLs and NEWTs. And, with the Dark Wizards in the midst, there are a higher number of Gryffindor-ish folk around also (in the muggle world, evil doesn't exactly reveal itself quite so obviously as the wizarding world). Let's say that the percentages in the Wizworld are more 35H/30S/20G/15R. We could possibly theorize that the Hufflepuffs, who "rarely get attention" (GoF) and are occasionally called "thick" by Ron (Justin and Cedric), may truly be the "leftovers" (no offense to any Hufflepuffs out there), and therefore don't score as many house points as the other houses. Slytherin may indeed score wildly, but most professors other than Snape catch them and take away points as needed, when they are cheating or doing other things to "get ahead". One would guess that Ravenclaws, if they are such academic types (and Hogwarts IS a school), can make up their house points with performance during classes despite their lesser numbers. And Gryffindor may do the same with the bold and honorable behavior. This would still back up my point (that I really am not trying that hard to defend...it's mostly in fun observation) that Harry's class may a) be smaller than other Gryffindor classes due to LV's activities, and b) may be a smaller subsection of the total population of the wizarding world. Thus, if there are even double the number of Hufflepuffs as Gryffindors, it goes a bit closer (along with so many other decent theories I've read on this list) to explaining JKR's "1000 student" quote. Just thinking aloud. :-) Wiley o' Ravenclaw From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Aug 6 02:06:55 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:06:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The trios SHIPPING options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1113601243.20030805190655@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75593 Monday, August 4, 2003, 9:02:14 AM, mom31 wrote: m> Ron/Hemione: Certainly many clues there. Until book 5, I thought it was a m> given. They seem to have taken a step back in OOP though, IMO. Meaning, m> less happened than in book 4, and that really surprised me. Why would JKR m> do that? Maybe she's just trying to be vague, because she has to be so m> careful now. JKR keeps saying that "Something is going on, but Ron doesn't know it yet." It seems like that by the Ron *does* find out, it's going to be too late for JKR to change Thestrals midstream. So my money is still on R/Hr. m> Harry/Ginny: The only clue I can see is Ginny's crush on Harry. Maybe m> Harry will suddenly notice Ginny is the perfect girl for him, but there are m> no hints that he will. I do think Ginny being around since book 1 is in her m> favor. With all these other boyfriends, I'm not sure if Ginny has truly fallen out of love with Harry, or if she's just switched tactics and is now attempting Reverse Psychology. (And as of Book 5, I think she's shrewd enough!) m> Harry/Luna: I like Luna, but can't see JKR waiting until book 5 to m> introduce Harry's future girlfriend. Why not? In _Little Women_ Jo doesn't meet her future husband until the 33rd of 47 chapters. m> Ron/Luna: OTOH, I can see JKR waiting until book 5 to introduce Ron's m> future girl friend. I think I'm more inclined to believe that R & L may prove to be soulmates if the Seer!Ron theory is correct. m> Harry/Cho: The fact that she's been around for the last 3 books, and we m> still barely know her, counts her out for me. She's served her purpose, (as m> first crush, first kiss, first mistake romantically) as far as I'm m> concerned. I think so too... Harry seems to be suffering from what I call the "Rachel-Tammy" syndrome. This refers to two girls I knew in my myopic youth. Tammy was very voluptuous, glamorous, outgoing, and otherwise appealing to a young guy discovering love... But it so happened that she also turned out to be a neurotic, selfish little twit. In contrast, Rachel was shy, homely, wore her hair in a tight bun, and was diffident and introverted. But she was a good, kind, intelligent, strong-charactered young woman, which I realized only too late after she had gone off with a guy much smarter than I was. In this analogy, I assess that Cho = Tammy and Ginny = Rachel. I only hope that it isn't too late for Harry to come to *his* senses. But I guess when we are young, such blunders are unavoidable... -- Dave From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 02:03:52 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:03:52 -0000 Subject: MWPP & the Trio + Neville: Four Houses Theory? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75594 Erm. Uh, Pippin, brief disclaimer here before the body of my post: I *hate* the Four Houses Theory. (It needs an acronym, btw.) I couldn?t tell you why I hate it, but I hate it. Just fyi. Pippin wrote: > I am a recent convert to the Four House theory for MWPP. What > changed my mind was the Mirror that Sirius gave Harry. He says > they used it when they had separate detentions. Sounds > plausible...except that in five years, Harry's had only one > detention where he wasn't being closely supervised by a > teacher. I think even Lockhart would have raised an artfully > shaped eyebrow if Harry had pulled out a mirror and started > talking into it! > Judging by Harry's experience it seems that the times when > James and Sirius had separate detentions *and* weren't being > supervised would be rather rare, hardly worth working up a > special piece of magic. On the other hand, if you needed to > communicate regularly with people in different Houses, the > mirrors would be ideal. Yeah, except. . . well, we've already got to assume that Sirius is lying here. Given all he's already told Harry about his family, why in the world would he mind telling him he was Sorted Slytherin, *especially* if he transferred later? If Harry isn't going to hold the DE brother against him, I doubt he'd hold the initial House placement against him. Anyway, it may well be that either: A. Hogwarts policy re detentions has changed in the last twenty years or B. Harry is generally more supervised than most students. Anyway, I?m betting that James and Sirius generally got a lot more detentions than Harry generally does. And. . . does it actually say that the Marauders ?worked up? the mirrors? I mean, were the mirrors something that they invented? > I think James was indeed a Gryffindor, Sirius was in Slytherin, > Lupin was in Ravenclaw (in the Pensieve, he's the only one who > wants to study) and Peter was Hufflepuff. Okay, but why these particular placements? James=Gryffindor. Okay, that I can go with, that seems pretty self-explanatory. If only one of them is a Gryffindor, then it should be Harry's dad. But. . . Sirius=Slytherin? Er. . . no offense, but Sirius has never struck me as being particularly cunning. Actually, he's always struck me as being in some ways the most reckless and impulsive of the Marauders, from what we've seen of them so far. Mind, none of the other Slyths we see in canon -- excepting Phineas, and, obviously, Snape -- seem all that cunning either; and the bloodline might count enough to balance that out, so I suppose I can you that one. Oh, but one other thing: doesn?t the phrase (referring to ASRWLL) ?gang of Slytherins? sound like a phrase more likely to be used by someone who was never himself a Slytherins that by someone who was? Remus=Ravenclaw. Okay, here we get *really* tricky. "Here's to a Gryffindor victory against". . . Ravenclaw, wasn't it? "Not that I'm supposed to take sides, as a teacher." Which implies pretty plainly that he *would* like to openly -- or even more openly -- take sides if he weren't, and that he'd be taking Gryffindor's side. (Another reading of the line is "I'm not supposed to take sides, *as a teacher,*" with the unspoken continuation "although I *have* taken sides under other circumstances as not-a- teacher." Or, *as a student.*) Besides, I got the impression from the Pensieve scene that he was also using his work in order to avoid having to confront James and Sirius. Certainly by the time James and Sirius spot Snape, Lupin isn't paying that much attention to his work; he's paying enough attention to his friends to get that frown. Anyway, he can't possibly have been as much of a swot as Hermione's in, and she eventually got Sorted Gryffindor. Peter=Hufflepuff. Um. "Loyal?" If I had to pick one word to *not* describe Peter Pettigrew, that word would be "loyal." ?Ah, but couldn't that word also be ?brave??? you ask. Well, I agree that on the face of it, Peter does not, shall we say, seem to be possessed of a great deal of derring-do; but it's okay, because Elkins explained all of that. (I was planning to snip, but realized that the whole thing was just so darn *good* that I might as well provide a link to it.) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45291 But even if I *did* agree with your particular hypothetical placements of MWPP, I'm not sure I could agree on your general scenario. > I think that in their time > the Sorting Hat also begged the Houses to unite -- Very probably. > -- and I think > these four originally tried to do that. But their idealism -- Idealism? *Idealism*? D'you honestly think that the arrogant little prats that were James and Sirius, and the hero-worshipper-of-the-arrogant-little-prats-that-were- James-and-Sirius that was Peter, were going to all independently -- and it would kind of have to be independently, I think -- come up with the idea to go out of their way, out of their class schedule, out of -- probably -- the good favor of their dorm mates, to try and *improve inter-House relations?* Out of *idealism?* Lupin, maybe. Lupin might have tried it, maybe. But even that I'm not too sure about. It could easily make a person unpopular, and Lupin "does like to be liked." Me, I think MWPP heard the Hat?s warning, if the Hat did give a warning, and carried right on behaving like ?arrogant little berks? and torturing Snape. Well, two of them tortured him, one of them got uncomfortable with it but still kept his trap shut, and one of them auditioned for his SYCOPHANTS membership. > -- faded in > the face of the difficulty of their task (as Hermione's plans to free > House Elves seem to peter out in each book). > So instead of > uniting their houses, MWPP formed a "little gang" of their own, as > McGonagall calls it, and spent their energies hedonistically in > ways that brought out the worst traits of the four houses -- Sorry. Here goes. . . > Slytherin paranoia (in the Prank) Are Slytherins especially paranoid? Is Sirius especially paranoid? > Gryffindor recklessness ( the werewolf rambles) But we don't know whose idea those were. And Gryffindors do seem to be reckless, but would you really assign that trait primarily to James, rather than to Sirius? After all, back to the Prank, Sirius was the one who cooked it up; James was the one who stopped it. > Ravenclaw lawlessness ( the only house > without a moral philosophy) is Lupin "lawless?" Again, I'd assign that more to Sirius, or James. Anyway, it is House Slytherin, and not House Ravenclaw, that has the "certain disregard for rules"; I don't know that I'd call "use any means to attain their ends" a "moral philosophy," exactly. > and Hufflepuff sycophancy and/or > underachievement. Hey! Hey, hey, hey, whoa! What in the world gives you that idea! What did Hufflepuffs ever do to deserve *that*? They're supposed to be "true" and "loyal," and neither of those categories squares away very well with flattery or sycophancy. (Or, as mentioned above, with treachery.) They're also supposed to be hardworking, or "unafraid of toil." If you are hardworking, you may still not be achieving very much, but you're probably achieving pretty close to your potential (unless you have a really lousy study plan or something). You're not underachieving. Hufflepuffs are salt-of- the-earth types, I always thought. If occasionally pompous. > For this alienation and failure, MWPP will all, as I see it, pay the > price. Sirius may indeed have become so alienated from > Slytherin that he transferred to Gryffindor, if that's possible. I > find it a bit suspicious that JKR has hinted it's possible without > letting us know for a fact whether it is or not. Er, I should probably know things like this before I write a long and vehement post, but where's that hinted? Oh! I've read your response to Terry. Harry's dream certainly does seem to imply that; but I thought that the line about Seamus being moved just meant "living somewhere else in the castle," and not "transferring Houses." Of course, I'm not entirely sure where else, if anywhere, he could live if he stayed a Gryffindor. > I think all the > others remained with their original Houses but became > alienated from them too. It could be as a symptom of that > alienation that James calls Lily by her surname though they are > (apparently) in the same House. I think he does that primarily because she hates his guts and told him he couldn't call her "Lily." He either decided not to antagonize her or did it once and regretted it. > Anyway, the awareness of this > failure could be why the older generation is reluctant to reveal to > Harry which Houses they were in. But they aren't. I mean, are they? It's simply never come up, has it? > As for the current generation, the Sorting Hat didn't take any time > with Ron, but hesitated over Hermione, Harry and Neville. Ron is > therefore the quintessential Gryffindor, while Harry would have > done well in Slytherin "Not a bad mind, either," is, I think, a hint that Harry might have been briefly considered for Ravenclaw, unless the Hat is listing that as a Gryffindor or Slytherin trait. The Elkins once wrote: > The possibility that the Sorting Hat's dilemma with Harry was due to > Harry's role as the possible unifier of all four Houses has been > discussed here often in the past. People have pointed out that in > the Hat's musings, it touches upon all four of the Houses' criteria > before offering Harry a place first in Slytherin, and then in > Gryffindor. Some have speculated that this might represent Harry's > role as a kind of exemplar, an embodiment of all *four* of the > founders and thus, by extension, of a holistic unification of the > wizarding world. > If we accept this premise, and if we agree that Harry and Neville can > be read as shadow images, or as mirrors, to one another, then what do > we make of the Hat's long hesitation over Neville? Could it be that > just as Harry reaps both the benefits and the drawbacks of his > heritage, while Neville accepts neither of them, so Harry answers the > Sorting Hat's fundamental question with "All of the Above," while > Neville answers: "None of the above?" (Here. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38398. Go read the whole thing, everyone. Everyone.) I consider this line of thought to be *vastly* more intriguing than a Four Houses breakdown of Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville. And I actually think that this analysis has gained in some ways from OOP. The revelation that Neville was the other possible answer to the Prophecy makes him a mirror to Harry in a humongous way that we didn't know that he was before, and that simply no other character is. And the -- IMHO -- increased likelihood that Harry will die at the end of the series makes the rebuilding of the Wizarding World a distinct phase in need of a new leader. I am seriously proposing Neville. Pippin: > Neville in Hufflepuff See the above, and, in another Elkins quote: > If I were Helga Hufflepuff, I wouldn't have touched Neville with a > ten-foot pole. She wanted stable, hard-working, straightforward, > salt of the earth type students, didn't she? I don't think that she > was terribly keen on the idea of trying to teach neurotic little > weirdos with serious magical learning disabilities and far more > emotional baggage than can fit into the overhead compartment. That > just doesn't seem likely to me. > In fact, if I were Helga, I think that I would have tried to foist > Neville off on somebody else. *Anybody* else. Probably > Godric. 'Cause you know, the thing about those warrior types with the > great big swords is that they can never resist a *challenge.* They > just love lost causes. And they're suckers for orphans and widows, > too. And puppy dogs. And the lame and the halt. They're just big > old *softies,* is what they are. Sentimental. And verrrrrry easy to > manipulate. > Which is pretty much exactly what I think happened inside that > Sorting Hat. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39980) Back to Pippin again: > and Hermione in > Ravenclaw. But why this specific breakdown? Why Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville? How can you *have* Harry, Ron, Hermione, and Neville, without also including Luna and -- perhaps especially -- Ginny in that group? We don?t *have* four major characters, at least not as of OOP. We have either three or six. > I think the Hat deliberately put them together in > Gryffindor, trying once again to unite the Houses against the > threat of Voldemort. But. . . but it *isn't* uniting the Houses if they're all in the same House! Really, if the only way the Houses can unite is if there's only one of them -- if the previous attempt of the Marauders failed -- doesn't that tremendously *undercut* the whole breaking down of House barriers that we see in OOP? Derannimer, with apologies for being so grouchy about this one, and further apologies for her formatting, which has been dreadful lately, for some reason or other From yellows at aol.com Wed Aug 6 02:26:33 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:26:33 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thestrals Message-ID: <021EACE0.721EB881.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75595 Okay, I know this was probably dealt with while I was still in mourning (and not posting) over our lost love from Book 5, but I can't find the threads that deal with it, so I'll throw it out here and hope someone comes to my rescue. :) Wasn't Harry present for his mother's death? If he can remember it, if she died in the same room to save him, if he was *there,* then didn't Harry watch someone die long before poor Cedric snuffed it? Why, then, were the Thestrals invisible to him before fifth year? Brief Chronicles From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 18:34:00 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:34:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HRH and their Prefect badges References: <20030805145843.15729.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F2FF898.8050400@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75596 Rebecca Stephens wrote: > --- "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > >>If we are going to stick strictly to the book, there >>is no solid >>evidence that I can recall that any of the above >>violates any >>rules. 'Midget', might, for all we know, be the >>accepted term >>for first-years, analogous to 'plebe' at Annapolis. >>Just because >>Hermione doesn't like it doesn't mean it violates a >>rule. Again, >>we have never been shown a rule that Fred and George >>were >>violating. Ditto with the brain-boosting products. > > I never said anything about him calling them midgets. > It's the forgetting to show them to their dorms I was > calling him on. I didn't say you did; it was a nested quote. > I'm sorry, but if what Fred and George were doing by > testing the fainting things one the first years wasn't > against the rules, it should have been. The first > years didn't know what the effect of them was. I > can't say anything for the later ones, as the first > years seemed to know what was going on then. You did say, though, that we should go only by what we actually see, and we don't see, or aren't specifically told, that F&G were violating a rule. > It was implied that the brain boosting stuff was > against the rules, if not stated. Again, by the rule of inference you used, if it was not stated, we can't rely on it. Alternatively, if we are allowed to assume such a rule, we should be allowed to assume that Ron is a competent prefect when we aren't watching. >>Regarding Fred and George, Percy couldn't tame them, >>either, so >>he must have been a poor prefect, too. > > Nope. As I've said time and time again, it's making > the attempt that counts. It's one thing to be unable > to do something; there's no shame in that. But to not > try to do your job? That's different. Trying to tame them would have been futile. Worse than futile, since they would have humiliated him, and thus would have greatly reduced his stature and authority as prefect, making it more difficult for him to do his duties with respect to other students. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 5 18:42:11 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 14:42:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione's AND Hagrid's rude comments References: Message-ID: <3F2FFA83.4040403@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75597 Diana_Sirius_fan wrote: > > As far as Hermoine > goes, big deal, she called them horses. This means she is racist? > They are horses, or part anyway. In addition, the centaurs themselves refer to their 'herd', which is definitely a horsey term. Does anyone think that centaurs are ashamed of their horse-nature? From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 02:38:43 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:38:43 -0000 Subject: Map of Hogwarts In-Reply-To: <89B19506-C72B-11D7-AF1E-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pen Robinson wrote: > > On Monday, Aug 4, 2003, at 22:04 Europe/London, Shaun Hately wrote: > > > > > Straw poll! Who thinks they'd have privacy partitions in the > > bathrooms... > > At my boarding school there were several bathrooms which each > contained a bath, and usually also a washbasin. > > ...edited... > > Pen > bboy_mn: I'm curious as to whether you are referring to one bathroom (as you described) per dorm/student_living room, or in some cases, one shared bath per two dorm rooms, or if you are referring to one large common facility full of several separate individual baths and sinks. I got the impression of individual private bathrooms. The second question is, when you say 'bath' for you mean bathing area, or specifically, a bathtub; if bathtub, then a bathtub with or without shower capability? Perhaps the first question we should ask and answer is whether Hogwarts is likely to have private/semi-private bathrooms, or if they have common/communal bathrooms? I can only use my personal NOT-UK college experience where dorm rooms has a sink but that's all. A floor of dorm rooms used a common bathroom and shower (no partitions between showers). I suspect that covers a vast majority of colleges in the US. So the first question - Hogwarts Boarding School... Private bath - one bathroom per dorm room? Semi-private bath - one bathroom per two dorm rooms? Although, living in a tower, doesn't make that likely. Common/Communal bathroom? - Perhaps one floor of the tower is a large bathroom for the boys, and another floor of the tower is a large bathroom for the girls. Personally, this is has my vote. Or as an alternative, one floor split in half; boy on the right half, girls on the left half, solid stone wall with no 'peep' holes separating the two. Then the next question is, what facilities, that is, what equipment is contained in each bathroom? Tubs, stools, sinks? Tub/shower combinations, stools, sinks? Showers only, stools, sinks? Primarily group showers with a few tubs, stools, sinks? No saunas, no hot tub/Jacuzzi, no steam room, no tanning beds, no masseuse, etc... Of course, there is no way for me to know, but here is what I suspect. One tower floor for boys, and one for girls bathroom facilities, open group showers with a few semi-private tubs, private toilet stalls, rows of sinks, and a changing area outside the shower area. One wash sink in each dorm room. But, like I said, I have know way of knowing, so this is pure speculation. bboy_mn From jkscherme at adelphia.net Wed Aug 6 02:46:50 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:46:50 -0000 Subject: Aberforth FOUND! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hpotter342" > wrote: > > When Harry enters the Hog's Head he says, "The Hog's Head bar > comprised one small, dingy, and very dirty > room that smeeled > strongly of something that might have been goats." > -Remember in GoF Dumbledore says, " My own brother,Aberforth, was > prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat." > Then Harry sees the bartender, and describes him as, "a grumpy > looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and a beard." > Possible Dumbledore look alike?? It would explain how the > > death eater got thrown out. If Aberforth, a member of the Order, > > noticed the prophecy begin and realized a known DE was listening in, > > he would be in a perfect position to keep a look out! We might not > > know why now, but it seems to us that having Dumbledore's brother > so > close would have to be really important. Any thoughts?? > ****************** > Wow! Now THAT is a nice, possible and VERY JKR theory. The type of > JKR clues that comes alive later on, like Hagrid's motorcicle. I am > with you on that one, even if I hadn't even contemplated the thought, > now that you said, it kinda makes sense, doesn't it? I will keep an > eye on next book! Well spotted! > Nineve. I agree! I'm jotting this one down in my journal. It's going to be interesting to see how many of the theories come to light in the next two books. So far I have twenty two that I feel are plausible, this makes twenty three. Thanks a bunch! madeyesgal From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 02:57:22 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 02:57:22 -0000 Subject: the scorcerers stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" wrote: > If Nicholas Flamel is 600+ years old, Dumbledore must also be around > that age. They made the stone together, presumably before Flamel was > maybe 100 or something so how old is Dumbledore and has he been > taking the elixir too? > *Yaira* bboy_mn: I worked together with my father on a car, but that doesn't make me the same age as my father or the same age as Henry Ford (or Gottlieb Daimler, if you are from Europe). Nicholas Flame is almost 700 years old, he created the Philosopher's (Socerer's) Stone on his own, and yes, during the first 100 years of his life. At sometime later, Dumbledore worked with Flamel on the study of Alchemy, which may or may not have included study and/or the creation of a Philosopher's Stone. Since Flamel is the senior, it's likely Flamel was the Master Alchemist and Dumbledore was the apprentice. Master Alchemists do not give up knowledge of the Philosopher's Stone easily. It's not enough to be good at alchemy, or wizardry, and it's not enough that you are a good person. An Alchemist will only give the knowledge of the Stone to someone that they feel has a sufficient degree of spiritual enlightenment. While we may consider Albus Dumbledore to be enlightened, Flamel may not have. So, there is a lot of alchemy that can be studies before you reach the level of the Philosopher's Stone, and it could just as easily be that Dumbledore was teaching Flamel wizardry, or that they were colaborating on a project unrelated to alchemy or the Stone. We know that Flamel is alomost 700 years old. We know that Dumbledore is about 150 years old. We know that at sometime during their lives Flamel and Dumbledore work together. What we don't know is when they worked together or what they worked on. Maybe it was the 12 uses of Dragon blood. Just a thought. bboy_mn From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 6 03:21:22 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 04:21:22 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the scorcerers stone References: Message-ID: <3F307432.000003.53365@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 75601 bboy_mn: Master Alchemists do not give up knowledge of the Philosopher's Stone easily. It's not enough to be good at alchemy, or wizardry, and it's not enough that you are a good person. An Alchemist will only give the knowledge of the Stone to someone that they feel has a sufficient degree of spiritual enlightenment. Me - Since there has only ever, as far as we know, been one Philosopher's Stone it seems a bit of a leap to say that that is how Master Alchemists in general would act. What we know is that Nicholas and his wife seem to have been the only ones to have benefited from the Elixir made from the stone, although Flamel does seem to trust others to look after it. We have no idea of his motives in keeping the secret to himself it may not have been that he thought people should have to reach any standard to benefit from it - he may simply been being selfish. Not that I think the Elixir is something he should be showering people with as christmas gifts or anything but we don't really know anything about Nicholas at all. K From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 03:23:58 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 20:23:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Thestrals References: <021EACE0.721EB881.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75602 BC: Wasn't Harry present for his mother's death? If he can remember it, if she died in the same room to save him, if he was *there,* then didn't Harry watch someone die long before poor Cedric snuffed it? Why, then, were the Thestrals invisible to him before fifth year? Dan: According to JKR, I believe, Harry was too young to properly *be there* to experience her death. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 03:51:25 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 03:51:25 -0000 Subject: Why Bella didn't disapparate-was OOP Azkaban effects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75603 Brief Chronicles wrote: > > > Bellatrix, she is heading for the visitors elevator/phone box to > escape the Ministry building. Why not just apparate before Harry > even gets off to the 8th floor in the elevator? > > I did notice that it was strange she didn't Apparate, though, and I > brushed it aside by telling myself there was a block similar to > Hogwarts' regarding Apparation in the Department of Mysteries. Arya replied: > I say Bellatrix didn't disapparate because she couldn't. Dumbledore > clearly says that the other captured DE are bound and being held > under an anti-appartition jinx in the Death Chamber. > My guess it that Lucius or perhaps another (Rookwood, > MAcNair, etc) who has inside info on the Ministry, helped disable > wards and protection to allow them and the kids in. Also, allowing > for disapparition so they could get away with the prophecy when the > finally got it. > But this leaves us with another question: How did Voldemort > disappear with Bellatrix at the end? Annemehr's two Knuts: First, why didn't Bellatrix apparate away? I think she knew full well (and intended?) that Harry followed her out of the Death Chamber. They ended up in the Atrium where she began taunting him and *trying to get the prophecy* from Harry. She didn't know it had broken until Voldemort appeared (apparated) and confirmed it was true. Second, I think she meant to apparate after she got the prophecy, and indeed we saw that Voldemort could do it. The Atrium is the part of the MoM for arrivals and departures. That's why it had the Flu fireplaces, and it's where Harry heard "the pops and cracks of Apparators" in ch. seven, when he was there for his hearing (and we do know that Arthur normally Apparates to work). I'm sure that this is the *only* part of the MoM where it is possible to apparate, for security reasons. Furthermore, I think Dumbledore's anti-apparation jinxes were applied to the DEs individually and so he'd missed Bellatrix and obviously didn't get Voldemort either. Third, as for how it was possible for the kids and DEs to be getting in and out, I agree with Arya that the DEs took care of that. I don't think they had to do anything to make apparition possible, but they certainly had to make sure all the MoM witches and wizards were cleared out of the way. I'll bet Lucius Malfoy and the Imperius Curse had a lot to do with that. As for the timing, Voldemort must have known when Harry received the vision of Sirius being tortured and so could signal the DEs that it was time to begin. Voldemort may then have hidden somewhere nearby in order to feel when Harry finally approached the MoM, so he could give a second signal. Eventually, he must have sensed things "going wrong" (or Dumbledore's presence?) and apparated into the atrium (but why risk it? -- did he need to see Harry for himself to see what had happened to the prophecy orb?). Eh, I think that's three Knuts! Annemehr From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 03:58:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 03:58:25 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75604 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Just curious, but what happens to Grimmauld Place now? Who inherits? bboy_mn: I'll post the links to thread that have already discussed this directly and indirectly. It most certainly is an intrigue question. It would seem that the closest relatives are the three sisters who are cousins to Sirus, but at the same time I'm sure we are all hoping that none of them get it. We also don't know how much weight Sirius being Harry's godfather plays. Once a godfather takes over his duties as godfather, does the godson become family for purposes of inheritance? We really don't know. Is it possible that through some mathimatical formula, the inheritance will be distributed proportionaly amoung all living relatives? I have my own plan for how I want things to work out, but really don't have anything to back that plan up. Also, thanks to Kiricat and o_caipora for bringing up the 'entailments' issue. That certainly complicates matters, or at least, complicates it relative to what I want to happen. Below are links to this and related discussion. These are links to my posts, but you can move up and down the thread, and see what everyone else had to say. Jun 29 - OOP: the Inheritance? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/65763 Jul 1 - OoP: Re: Question - inheritance thread...(& Winky) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66493 Jul 23 - Dead Men Tell No Lies (was: inheritance) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72691 Jul 22 - Inheritance - Kreacher - Dead or Alive http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/72476 Aug 1 - Kreacher & House-Elf Relocation http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74791 Aug 2 - Re: Silly Questions (that may never be answered) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74859 Some of these may be slightly off topic but they are related, and some of them are part of the same threads. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 04:09:38 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:09:38 -0000 Subject: Sirius's Reward, Was1000 Galleon reward for DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > SNIP > > > > As a side note: there is a G10,000 reward for Sirius. ... > > > > bboy_mn > > But here is the problem on that, The only people who know Sirius was > there are the sutdents and Order members who cannot really say they > were hanging out with a wanted escaped convict and the Death Eaters > who probably really don't care about the truth at the moment > whereever they are. ...edited... > > Ok, so even if word is out that Sirius Black was at the DoM with > everyone and that he went through the veil, ... > > So, in conclusion, I have to say there will be no reward money paid > out for the "death" of Sirius. > > > Arya bboy_mn: Well, I suspect you are right, the reward money won't be paid. But as far as Sirius, I believe that at some point through some as yet unknown procedure, Sirius's name will be cleared, then later through some other procedure, Sirius will be declared dead. First cleared, then dead. The purpose of those things happening over time, and to the convinience of and to the advantage of the Order, will be to clear Sirius's estate. An estate which I assume will go all or in significant part to one or more of the good guys. Just a thought. bboy_mn From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 04:17:33 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:17:33 -0000 Subject: HRH and their Prefect badges In-Reply-To: <20030805145843.15729.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: >>>It's the forgetting to show them to their dorms I was calling [Ron] on.<<< Me: Are you calling Hermione on it as well? Because she didn't seem to remember that they were supposed to do that until Dumbledore had dismissed them and they were getting to their feet. That surprised me, actually. Given the way she is, I would've expected her to spend the whole dinner trying to plan things out with Ron (much to his irritation, natch). I just assumed that the Sorting Hat's new song and Umbridge's speech threw everybody off their game. >>>Rebecca: I'm sorry, but if what Fred and George were doing by testing the fainting things one the first years wasn't against the rules, it should have been. The first years didn't know what the effect of them was. I can't say anything for the later ones, as the first years seemed to know what was going on then.<<< Me: But we *don't know* that it was against the rules. Just because you want it to be doesn't make it so (and doesn't make it fair to expect Ron to stop it). It would be one thing to slip something to an unwitting person (like what Harry and Ron did to Crabbe and Goyle in CoS), but the First Years willingly took F&G's products. And as far as not knowing the effects, that was the assumption Harry made; as far as I know, we never found out for sure whether it was true. >>>Rebecca: Nope. As I've said time and time again, it's making the attempt that counts. It's one thing to be unable to do something; there's no shame in that. But to not try to do your job? That's different.<<< Me: Well, he started to get up that first night in the common room, then sat down when he was satisfied that Hermione had things under control. And I seem to recall that one of the times he did yell at them for misbehaving, he ended up with a snowball in his face. Did Percy ever assert any authority over them in the first three books? I honestly can't remember. CM From MagRig13 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 04:30:27 2003 From: MagRig13 at aol.com (american_pie8887) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:30:27 -0000 Subject: Aberforth FOUND! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hpotter342" > > > wrote: > > > When Harry enters the Hog's Head he says, "The Hog's Head > bar > > comprised one small, dingy, and very dirty > room that smeeled > > strongly of something that might have been goats." > > -Remember in GoF Dumbledore says, " My own brother,Aberforth, was > > prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat." > > Then Harry sees the bartender, and describes him as, "a grumpy > > looking old man with a great deal of long gray hair and a beard." > > Possible Dumbledore look alike?? It would explain how the > > > death eater got thrown out. If Aberforth, a member of the Order, > > > noticed the prophecy begin and realized a known DE was listening > in, > > > he would be in a perfect position to keep a look out! We might > not > > > know why now, but it seems to us that having Dumbledore's brother > > so > close would have to be really important. Any thoughts?? > > ****************** > > Wow! Now THAT is a nice, possible and VERY JKR theory. The type of > > JKR clues that comes alive later on, like Hagrid's motorcicle. I am > > with you on that one, even if I hadn't even contemplated the > thought, > > now that you said, it kinda makes sense, doesn't it? I will keep an > > eye on next book! Well spotted! > > Nineve. > > I agree! I'm jotting this one down in my journal. It's going to be > interesting to see how many of the theories come to light in the next > two books. So far I have twenty two that I feel are plausible, this > makes twenty three. Thanks a bunch! > > madeyesgal Not to mention, Harry finds the bartender to be "vaguely familiar"! I'm totally agreeing with this theory! ~~Mags From hieya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 04:46:48 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:46:48 -0000 Subject: What's the point of Houses? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75608 Hello. I am wondering why Hogwarts needs these different Houses to begin with. I mean, what is the point of sorting all the brave students to live in a dorm together, all the ambitious people together, etc.? What does that accomplish? Everyone receives the same education anyway (different Houses have classes together). I understand that the students need to be placed in groups for the sake of organization, but why does that organization (i.e. Sorting) depend on their personality? Why can't the Hat just randomly select students for each House? A lot of bad will seems to crop up at Hogwarts in large part to the House system. Any thoughts? greatlit2003 From stormbringer43 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 04:53:13 2003 From: stormbringer43 at yahoo.com (stormbringer43) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:53:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > feetmadeofclay wrote,"Contrary to popular belief in the Potterfanverse, teenagers are capable of both compassion and rational thought as well as of selfless behaviour. They do not universally treat each other like dirt. I don't ask that Harry be a saint only that he behave as he would like to be treated. That he understand and accept that Cho is a girl with feelings. His choice to see her as nothing at all, is his own" Jim Ferer wrote: "I feel you're somewhat harsh here. Let me start out by saying I was annoyed at Harry about fifty times in the course of OOP for just the kind of things that you don't like - lashing out at his friends, moodiness, petulance, insensitivity - but I also realized Harry was under stress so fantastic that many adults would crack under the strain. "Voldemort's continuous attempts on Harry's life weren't even the worst stress Harry faced. More immediate, and more stressful, was Umbridge's persecution, but the worst was the disbelief and hostility he faced from his fellow students and the public. Add the natural stress of OWL year to the mix. "I also cut Harry some slack because his natural instinct, over the years we've known him, is to be nice to people. Many people recognize it and stick with him even when he's unlikeable at the moment. "His treatment of Cho was bad, but not inexcusable. He was insensitive when she cried for Cedric and was resentful of Hermione's closeness to Harry, but he could apologize and move on. He still can, actually. As far as unloading on Cho over her sneak friend Marietta Edgecombe, he damn near got expelled or even tossed into Azkaban because of that betrayal. Cho had to expect to take some heat over it. "I think Harry's stress is very much reduced now that he is vindicated and no longer has Umbridge's enmity to deal with. He could perhaps even reconnect with Cho if he wanted - she blushed the last time she saw him on the train - but I don't think he will. He's over her. "So you're not wrong that kids can and do act compassionately and responsibly, but we've seen Harry do it before. Heck, we see the old Harry emerging again with Luna and her lost possessions. So, after what he's been through, he's the first one that deserves compassion." Stormbringer43 adds: While I agree with most of what Mr. Ferer wrote, I want to correct one thought: Cho and every DA member - NOT Harry alone - were at risk of being expelled because of Cho's "sneak friend" Marietta Edgecombe. All were members of an unauthorized Organization, and subject to expulsion under Educational Decree Number Twenty-Four (Ref. OOP, Amer. Ed., pgs. 351-352). This brings me back to a troubling thought from my second reading of OOP - why in heaven, hell, or earth would Marietta have risked getting Cho and other Ravenclaw students expelled by going to Umbridge? This fails the sniff test, and royally. Marietta did not like Harry, obviously, but it is difficult to believe that a 16 year old girl would "narc" on a close friend. I suspect the truth is something different than what was presented by Umbridge: "Well, Minister, Miss Edgecomb here came to my office shortly after dinner this evening and told me she had something she wanted to tell me. " (pages 612-613) I think in Book 6 we may learn that Marietta's mother - a MOM employee ? learned of the DA from her daughter, told Umbridge, who cornered her. If this is the case, Marietta would be less of a sneak and more of a victim, and Harry may well regret unloading on Cho over her friend. Another interesting point on that scene between Harry and Cho: she is displaying one of Harry's strengths, loyalty to friends. She was defending Marietta as a person, and not defending her actions. Stormbringer From hieya at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 04:59:54 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:59:54 -0000 Subject: Luna and Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75610 Hi. Sorry if this has been posted already, I haven't read everything. Could Luna and Harry grow closer, and possibly start dating? They both have an interesting outlook on the world because of their life experiences. I cannot imagine any ordinary girl (like Cho) dating Harry again, because they cannot understand him. His life, as we see at the end of OOP, is beyond the kind of stuff ordinary teenagers do. I doubt Harry will show much interest in Quidditch (sob), socializing, and "fun stuff" in general. I think he will become a better student though, in order to learn how to fight V-mort. Harry learned in OOP that he is not, and never will be, an ordinary person, which he had tried so hard to be for four years. People like Cho cannot understand this. Cho made a big deal about meeting Hermione; Harry has many bigger things to deal with. Since Luna was the only one who could make Harry feel better, I think she will become at least a close friend, even a girlfriend. She has the insight and experience to help Harry cope with the worst. Any thoughts? greatlit2003 From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 05:10:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 05:10:58 -0000 Subject: the scorcerers stone In-Reply-To: <3F307432.000003.53365@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > bboy_mn: > > > Master Alchemists do not give up knowledge of the Philosopher's > Stone easily. ...the knowledge of the Stone to someone that they > feel has a sufficient degree of spiritual enlightenment. > > > Me - > Since there has only ever, as far as we know, been one Philosopher's > Stone, it seems a bit of a leap to say that that is how Master > Alchemists in general would act.... > Kathryn bboy_mn: The key to your statement is 'as far as we know'. The Philosopher's Stone is known across Europe, Arabia, and Asian according to the documented history of the Philosopher's Stone. We must remember that JKR didn't invent the Stone, it has it's own history dating back many hundreds of years. When JKR brings in existing myth and mythology, she is usually pretty true to the legend. House-elves are very close to Browies. Dragon, Gryffins, Hypogriphs, etc... are all existing legends, and she is reasonable true to those legends. So, I see no reason why she would deviate from the long existing history of alchemy and the legend of the Philosopher's Stone. Given that I feel comfortable drawing those legends, as indicators of how things work in JKR's wizard world. Also, the text the Hermione reads refers to Flamel as having the only Stone in existance; but I can't read that as absolute. It has to be interpreted as the only Stone known by the wizard world to exist. You probably know that Nicholas Flamel was a real person, who is thought to have actually created a Stone. If you were knowledgable in the legends of alchemy and the Stone, then you would know that the Stone and it's pursuit are a religious persuit. You can never gain the wisdom necessary to create the stone unless you have reach the necessary level of spiritual enlightenment. Regarding Nicholas Flamel, his knowledge and insight into the creation of the stone came out of ancient Jewish tradition. Part of the enlightenment is to realize that the money and eternal earthly life mean nothing, and so only those who have reach the stage of enlightenment can be trusted with the stone. To what extent Dumbledore is enlightened, I can not say, but he himself indicates that choosing the money and life are far from the best path; and given this, may be sufficient for Flamel to trust the stone into Dumbledore's keeping, but that trust doesn't necessarily include making and using the stone. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 05:27:02 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 05:27:02 -0000 Subject: the scorcerers stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Part of the enlightenment is to realize that the money and eternal > earthly life mean nothing, and so only those who have reach the stage > of enlightenment can be trusted with the stone. To what extent > Dumbledore is enlightened, I can not say, but he himself indicates > that choosing the money and life are far from the best path; and given > this, may be sufficient for Flamel to trust the stone into > Dumbledore's keeping, but that trust doesn't necessarily include > making and using the stone. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn Do you think that Dumbledore could be enlightened enough by any standard, including Flamel's, but that he does not actually want to make or use the Philosopher's Stone? I am wondering if what he said in PS/SS applies to himself: "You see, only one who wanted to *find* the Stone -- find it, but not use it -- would be able to get it, otherwise they'd just see themselves making gold or drinking Elixir of Life." If this is true, then Dumbledore would be perhaps the *only* person Flamel could trust to guard the Stone -- that, and it would enable Dumbledore to get the Stone back out of the Mirror of Erised! Annemehr who just replied to you on OT-Chatter too! From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 05:27:29 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 05:27:29 -0000 Subject: What's the point of Houses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Hello. > I am wondering why Hogwarts needs these different Houses to begin > with. I mean, what is the point of sorting all the brave students to > live in a dorm together, all the ambitious people together, etc.? > What does that accomplish? Everyone receives the same education > anyway (different Houses have classes together). I understand that > the students need to be placed in groups for the sake of > organization, but why does that organization (i.e. Sorting) depend on > their personality? Why can't the Hat just randomly select students > for each House? A lot of bad will seems to crop up at Hogwarts in > large part to the House system. Any thoughts? > > greatlit2003 I agree there is not much good in the way the students are sorted. Even the Sorting Hat doesn't like the division of the students. I'm all for a new system of housing students. But the Hat is only doing what it was made to do. It can only caution students about the dangers of the houses divided. It cannot change how it sorts students. When the founders created Hogwarts, they each had in mind certain qualities in students that they valued above any other. In the beginning they chose their students based on these qualities and taught only those who fit the criteria (except Helga Hufflepuff who took all the rest). They created the hat to continue this practice once they were gone. Essentially the sorting of students based on the founders' criteria is about tradition. This tradition does cause animosity between the different houses, most particularly seen between Gryffindor (with Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff to an extent) and Slytherin. Surely breaking up the house system as it stands would change this for a while as students worked to form new identities for their houses if the houses stayed but selection was randomized. I mean if they still used the house names. If the competition between houses in the form of House Cup and the Quidditch cup remain, house rivalry would continue, anyway. Maybe without the "labels" that the current sorting system places on each house, the rivalry would be less strong. But who knows? As always, I hope I made some sense in my babbling, KathyK From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 05:51:19 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 05:51:19 -0000 Subject: The Dog Was in Danger (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75614 The Dog Was in Danger To the tune of The Cat in the Cradle by Harry Chapin Dedicated to Maria Hear this song at: http://www.foxlink.net/~bobnbren/1970s.html#C THE SCENE: The grounds of Hogwarts, on the final day of the school year. Enter HARRY. HARRY: When I met Black, he was a fugitive They called him a killer who'd no quarter give. But I learned the truth in the Shack one night, And I risked my life so he could take flight. And as he soared to his freedom, I heard him add: He said: SIRIUS Your father, you're so much like him, lad You know you're so much like your Dad HARRY: And the dog was in danger but he dodged the doom >From dementor robes `neath a werewolf moon. When you comin' back, Black? SIRIUS I don't know when, but we'll get together soon. We'll live as son and father soon HARRY: The next year Black was still a fugitive But he gave to his Godson all he had to give Closest thing to a family I ever had He was partly brother and partly Dad As he walked away changing back to a Grim He said, SIRIUS James'd be so proud of you, yeah You know that you are just like him HARRY: And the dog was in danger but disdained the doom He's at my side after Riddle's tomb Can you stay with me now? SIRIUS I don't think so, but we'll get together soon We'll live as son and father soon HARRY: Well, it's one further year, and still a fugitive Black's returned to his ancestral home to live. A place to serve as the Phoenix HQ But a place that Sirius so hates too. SIRIUS What I'd really like, son, is fighting DEs I said: Kreacher's features I will not appease, son That Kreacher elf I won't appease HARRY: And the dog's in no danger and his days are dim It seems that no one has a need for him. SIRIUS Shall we rendezvous, son? HARRY: I don't think so, SIRIUS I guess you're not quite James' son He would have found the danger fun . HARRY: Then the Dark Lord preyed upon my pride and hate That I gave him liberty to orchestrate The peril we were facing was mighty grave Then Black et al. arrived the day to save But Bellatrix saw the veil and she blasted him through She said: BELLATRIX It's been such fun to make sure you're dead It's been so nice murdering you (Enter LUNA LOVEGOOD, who has overheard all of HARRY'S soliloquy) LUNA: And the dog who's in danger, as a man he died, He's not truly gone, he's still at your side When you have a need of him You'll here him say: VOICE OF SIRIUS You so make your father proud, son VOICE OF JAMES POTTER & SIRIUS You so make both your fathers proud .. (LUNA consoles HARRY as he weeps) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 6 07:46:11 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 07:46:11 -0000 Subject: Is the wizarding world a democracy? - Grown up Impressions of the WW In-Reply-To: <20030805201508.8723.qmail@web13702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Trevor Peterson wrote: > Steve wrote > The WW seems to be a dictatorial democracy, much like the Ancient Greek states of Macedonia and Sparta. Where a leader was elected by a group of powerful aristocrats for a specific period of time. These leaders were given total control for their elected period, commonly 2 years. > > Fudge could do as he did with those powers, but notice how he had to get the public on his side by controlling the press spin. Fudge with all his powers was afraid of public opinion and tried to shape it. Dictators only worry about public opinion when in a Democracy. > > Laxer: First, show me where either of us said that the US was a Democracy. All that was said was that the wizarding world is not following the US model of government. Second, yes you are kind of correct with saying that the US is not a democracy. Websters says that in a strict sense, a democracy is where the supreme power is vested in the people. - my note- the only place where you will then be able to have a democracy is small towns because of the inefficiencies of making decisions- The first definition that Websters gives is ....the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them or their elected agents. > > On that note, the WW is a democracy if the people elect the minister of magic or the wizengamot, otherwise no. And in my humble opinion, even if the WW is a democracy technically, it is not a good one > > laxer June: It seems to me that if you read the five books in sequence, the POV is drifting slowly towards a more balanced understanding of both worlds as Harry grows up and becomes more mature. The first impression we get of the WW is that it is utopian - compared with Harry's grey prisoner of war status in the RW. JKR has been gradually introducing darker elements of the WW, especially in the three later books; I will list a few below to show what I mean, though I do not pretend the list is exhaustive: Sirius, imprisonment without trial or proper investigation; and then possible "execution" by decree. (This is a world that permits judicial murder - which IMHO is what execution is, and worse in the case of the dementor's kiss, torture - imprisonment under the dementors' charge must be not unlike Orwell's Ministry of Love). The suspension of legal restraints on Auror powers by Crouch (GoF passim). This smacks of totalitarianism. It has it's parrallels in 1930's Germany and Russia where ruling was done centrally and by emergency decree rather than through any democratic structure. The show trials of captured death eaters - I refer to the pensieve scenes. These are not trials in any accepted western judicial system sense: there seems to be no defense lawyers, no case prepared (though I will concede that we only see part of the trials - there may well be more). They looked a lot like the 1930 Russian party purges to me. The blatant use of propaganda by Crouch to distort the truth that only Harry and Dumbledore will utter. (Shades of Alastair Campbell!) Anyway, to get back to my point: I think this is perhaps a good way of introducing a younger audience to some very important truths. A young child enters a world which looks gorgeous and glamourous compared to his own, and yet there are disturbing similarities with some very bad aspects of ours. In short, not all fantasy worlds are a solution to intolerable aspects of real life. June "Lasciate ogni speranza, voi ch'intrate" At work and sick of it. From jedillore at rcn.com Wed Aug 6 00:07:25 2003 From: jedillore at rcn.com (Emily Rose) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:07:25 -0500 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: <1059987347.2223.27464.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75616 "John, C" (quoting from interview) > 2. About Snape > > Q. There's an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape > JKR. He, um, there's so much I wish I could say to you, and I can't because > it would ruin. I promise you, whoever asked that question, can I just say to > you that I'm slightly stunned that you've said that and you'll find out why > I'm so stunned if you read Book 7. That's all I'm going to say. This is my first post. I've only been on the list 2 days and there's already over 10 digests in my mailbox! I skimmed through them and didn't see anything a long these lines so hopefully I'm not restating what has already been said. The above quote from the JK Rowling interview echoes something I've been thinking about lately. Until book 5 I was never very fond of Snape as a character. He seemed to be there as yet another way to make Harry's life miserable. But after reading the end of Book 5 I suddenly realized that Snape and Harry are in the same boat when it comes to Voldemort and that makes some of Snape's actions in the earlier books much more interesting. We know that Snape was a Death Eater and he betrayed Voldemort to become a spy for the Order of the Phoenix. We also know from Book 4 that Voldemort knows that Snape isn't coming back and he's pissed off about it. It makes me think that Snape's name is probably second on Voldemort's "People to Kill when I come into Power List" right under Harry's. And since Snape is now a member of the Order again, he is once again putting his life on the line to protect Harry and fight the man he betrayed. (Rowling still hasn't said why Snape switched sides though. Hmmm...) But, we also now know that James tormented Snape in school and so his feelings of animosity towards Harry based on the treatment by Harry's father are fairly justified. So, could you imagine what was going through Snape's mind during say Book 1 when he was trying to save Harry from Quirrell's broom jinx? It could have been Dumbledore or McGonagall who tried to save Harry, but instead it was Snape. He probably wanted nothing more than to watch the offspring of the school bully hit the ground from 50 feet in the air, but instead he protected him. I know it was a plot point to make it appear as though Snape was the bad guy, but given what we know about Snape now, it gives the act new meaning. Even so Snape isn't a good guy in bad guy's clothing. He still pits Harry against Malfoy at Lockhart's dueling session well knowing that they were going to try and rip each other apart. I'm sure he enjoyed watching it too. Plus, he wasn't exactly willing to listen to reason in the shrieking shack at the end of book 3. So Snape has now become one of my favorite characters. The duality he shows in regards to Harry and Voldemort (like how he still calls him the "Dark Lord") is just fascinating. I have a feeling that in the next two books we're going to see some really interesting things from Snape and I'm very much looking forward to it. (But I'm not even going to speculate what those things may be. Rowling's got way too much stuff up her sleeve for me to even bother anymore. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy the ride.) By the way - this is a great list. I love the ideas of adults reading and talking about Harry Potter books. Rowling's world is way too rich for it to be just another kid's franchise from Warner Bros. -e From pentzouli at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 08:11:54 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 08:11:54 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75617 > L o r d v o l d e m o r t - Loved , loved what, loved who, what is > it! love .... anyone know Latin? I don't. there is something there. > going to snap it in my laptop later and see what the latin > dictionary comes up with. bet it's something good. any thoughts on > this, someone want to beat me to the draw. Lori In French, "Voldemort" is analysed like this : Vol de Mort which means "sudden hit of death". This is mentioned in many sites that have to do with the origin of names in the Harry Potter series, and it is quite representing of the preference of LV to use the Avada Kedavra curse on his victims. So, I don't think that LV is loving someone or even more loved by someone, but in the sense that he most of all fears death (he tries all his life to find a way to be immortal) I think his name could be his own demise... a sudden hit of death. cheers holly_phoenix_11 From o_caipora at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 06:16:45 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 06:16:45 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75618 "Steve" wrote: > I'll post the links to threads that have already discussed this > directly and indirectly. Certainly a handy time-saver. Thank you. > Is it possible that through some mathimatical formula, the > inheritance will be distributed proportionaly amoung > all living relatives? Unlikely. Traditionally Britain went by primogeniture (= eldest male takes all) to prevent fortunes from being broken up. That the Black forture has held together since the Middle Ages suggests the Blacks have always done it that way. > Also, thanks to Kiricat and o_caipora for bringing up the > 'entailments' issue. That certainly complicates matters, or at > least, complicates it relative to what I want to happen. You're welcome. :) FYI, I don't like Draco. But unless there is a relative we haven't been told about yet, it looks to me like Grimauld Place and the Black fortune go to him. There are two issues: rightful occupation of the house, and ownership of it. Three issues, if you count Kreacher. If Sirius formally leased the house to the OOP, it could continue to rightfully occupy the house despite a change of ownership. If your landlord sells or dies, you don't lose your lease. I somehow doubt Dumbledore and Sirius sat down and negotiated a lease, though. If the house goes to a minor whose Death Eating parents are on the run, someone else would have to act as trustee. That decision might well go to the Wizengamot, the president of which could probably find a way to pick an OOP sympathizer as trustee. By the time Draco is of age the war will be over, anyways, and the OOP won't need a VWW Post. As to who inherits the ownership, we need to look at patrimony and primogeniture. Modern society has great social mobility. The money you have is essentially the money you've made. The vast majority of the richest people in the U.S. are first- or second-generation rich, not "old money". But up to the industrial revolution, if you had money you'd inherited it. The word "patrimony" means "assets", but the Latin means "father's money". Your money wasn't yours, it was your family's: you had received it from your father and were expected to leave it to your son. Under Brazilian law (with which I am more familiar than British) even today by law half of your estate goes to your children. You can't leave it all to a home for stray cats even if you want to. And if at a not-so-advanced age you decide to spend what you've made to liven your remaining years with wine, women and song, your children can sue to stop you from dissipating their inheritance. After the American Civil War, some Confederate officers were penalized with the loss of their properties *for their lifetimes*. Use of their lands was auctioned off; when they died the lease ended and their sons inheirited. That makes sense if you look at the property as belonging to the family rather than the individual. More exotic than wizard law, isn't it? But the spirit is in line with old British custom. Assuming Sirius made a will (and he had time those long months in Grimauld Place), he could leave the property that did *not* come from his father to whomever he wanted. It would not be entailed (unless his uncle entailed it). His other house, his motorcycle, the money from his uncle and so on could well go to Harry. With months on end with nothing to do in Grimauld Place, he might well have written a will. It's unlikely that the fortune would be split in equal parts among the Black cousins. It's likely it goes to the closest "pure blood" male blood descendent, and that's Draco. Bellatrix's descendants if any may be disqualified because she killed Sirius, but Draco can't be disqualified because he's a git. As to Kreacher, creating an exceptionally heavy and ungainly tea- service for him to carry might result in him agreeing to a reduction in headcount under the traditional Black retirement policy. If he couldn't carry a tea-tray, I'm sure he'd feel like hanging his head. - Caipora From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 08:38:40 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 08:38:40 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75619 > "John, C" > (quoting from interview) > We also know from Book 4 that Voldemort > knows that Snape isn't coming back and he's pissed off about it. It makes> me think that Snape's name is probably second on Voldemort's "People to Kill> when I come into Power List" right under Harry's. I agree that Snape is probably really high on Voldemort's 'To Kill' list. LV doesn't seem to take too kindly to betrayal, in an form. And going back to Dumbledore (the 'champion of mudbloods and muggles' according to Lucius Malfoy, don't remember which book) is probably the worst thing you could do in LV's eyes. > So, could you imagine what was going through Snape's > mind during say Book 1 when he was trying to save Harry from Quirrell's> broom jinx? It could have been Dumbledore or McGonagall who tried to save> Harry, but instead it was Snape. He probably wanted nothing more than to> watch the offspring of the school bully hit the ground from 50 feet in the> air, but instead he protected him. I know it was a plot point to make it> appear as though Snape was the bad guy, but given what we know about Snape> now, it gives >the act new meaning. > Yes, but Snape was the only one who suspected Quirrel of being in league with LV, so the other teacher's probably needed a bit of time to figure out what was going on. Snape was already keeping a close eye on Quirrell by that point. And Hagrid said it takes very powerful magic to interfere with a broomstick. If you didn't get in the counter jinx at the beginning, you probably couldn't do it. (my theory, not the book) ~Margaret From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Aug 6 09:29:47 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:29:47 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the scorcerers stone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308061129.47296.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75620 bboy_mn: <> But she brings our of nothingness a race if ugly Sirens, and she has made a parody of Fairies. She has transformed NightMares into Thestrals, also. She is true to the legend when she is in mood. And what legends? If it were so easy, we could have worked out without doub if vampires are daylight creatures or not. <> Then, as the simple version (the one you tell kids) of the legend goes for turning metal into gold, and goes along with the 'Fountain of Youth' legend, I expect to see a legendary fountain. I see reasons to deviate. She does when she wants, and the long history of alchemy and personal illumination is something she can use or not, she already writes about personal illumination. A lot of symbols/colourful legends are in the novels just because it sets the atmosphere. 'As far as we know', we don't know anything, less to supose how alchemy works, or if there is a Marter Alchemist. The works with Flammel could even be a way to duplicate the aura of the stone but not its real properties, so it wouldn't have mind if Voldie got it or not in PS. silmariel From tyoria at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 00:28:00 2003 From: tyoria at yahoo.com (tyoria) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 00:28:00 -0000 Subject: rumors of Dumbledore's escape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75621 hello, I'm new here. :) I just wanted to know if anyone else caught this error, at the beginning of chapter twenty-nine: "The notices had gone up all over the school overnight, but they did not explain how every single person within the castle seemed to know that Dumbledore had overcome two Aurors, the High Inquisitor, the Minister of Magic, and his Junior Assistant to escape." But Dumbledore DIDN'T overcome the Junior Assistant, remember? Fudge sent Percy off to deliver an owl just beforehand. Is this an error on JKR's part, or a clue? I notice that in the previous chapter, Harry feels something brush against him that he later attributes to Kingsley's spell. But what if it was someone in an invisibility cloak leaving the room? They would have known that Harry and Marietta were the only students to have witnessed the scene, but they WOULDN'T have known that Percy left shortly afterwards, so they assumed that he was still in the room when Dumbledore made his getaway. That could also explain why some of the other information the students had was inaccurate, like Fudge having a pumpkin for a head... From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 00:51:07 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 16:51:07 -0800 Subject: Jim Dale (was Pronunciation of Voldemort) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030805160950.03406008@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 75622 At 07:55 PM 8/4/2003 +0000, HP Lexicon wrote: >So why did they say it differently in the film? Even Jim Dale, who >said VOL-duh-more in the audio versions of books 1-4, started >pronouncing the T for book 5. Why oh why? He changes the pronunciation of a few things as we go through the books. I noticed this since I listened to the books before ever read them. On book 4 he changes from Her-mon-ee to Her-my-oh-nee...why, her name was actually sounded out for Krum...any other changes in pronunciation that you've noticed? From esaulgd at cantv.net Wed Aug 6 03:03:53 2003 From: esaulgd at cantv.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Enrique_Sa=FAl_Gonz=E1lez?=) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:03:53 -0400 Subject: Hitler and Voldemort Message-ID: <018401c35bc7$5f1cd350$a2c654c8@SAUL> No: HPFGUIDX 75623 Hello, Rowling has admitted in interviews that there are parallers between Hitler and he-who-must-not-be-named. Also, it may be coincidence (if such a thing exists in the Potterverse), but by rearranging the letters in "slytherin" you can get "synhitler", which may stand for "Syn(onim) Hitler". We already know of a certain Slytherin who likes to switch the letters of his name around. (This anagram is curiously not shown in wordsmith.org's anagram section) -- Nintendo Proud Alumni of ~ Ravenclaw ~ (a.k.a. Gryffindors' Dating Service) From kaisenji at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 03:34:31 2003 From: kaisenji at yahoo.com (Kaisenji) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 03:34:31 -0000 Subject: Squibs-genetics gone wrong or (more & long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75624 ...the usual "hiccups" in nature's creatures. I've been thinking about squibs of late and what roll they have in the wizarding world. Obviously, squibs are the "invisible people"; that is nobody talks much about them because they feel sorry or embarressed by their very existance. The Minstery of Magic (shame on them) don't even keep records on squibs and the families they come from. Such is the case in a family of healthy regular people have that one family member who may have a mental or physical disability thus tainting the family genetics. (not slamming disabled people but using as an example; most families do not treat a disabled member like an outcast this is to say however that it does not happen.) But, how true is that? Something about Ms. Figg's actions that night the dementors attacked Harry and Dudley had me asking myself "Now how the heck did she know they where there?" She saw them. Maybe. She had stated she felt the dementors. Dudley not only felt them but saw them as well. I wonder though...how many other people in houses nearby felt them too? I'd love to know this! The connection both Dudley and Ms. Figg to the wizarding world and the dementors is that both come from families that have/had a member of the family who active magical blood in which they share those genes. So I ask this, how much magic is actually in a person deemed a squib? What can they feel things differently than a wizard or witch? Take Filch for instance? What the heck is he doing at hogwarts when obviously to us, a wizard of er...lesser talents could also do the job too but use magic to speed up cleaning accidents. I dunno what do y'all think? Kai From arioth at peoplepc.com Wed Aug 6 03:35:42 2003 From: arioth at peoplepc.com (arioth1) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 03:35:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Name In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubs99111" wrote: > Hey guys, just a quick question. Is Sirius pronounced like the word > Serious? For some reason I have pronounced the name in my head as > Sirus. For some reason whenever I read his name I guess I would > subconsciously eliminate the second I. Similarly I always read > prefects as perfects. > > > Joe (knowing that unfortunatly no matter how his name is pronounced, > he is still gone) I do believe it is pronounced like serious because that is how Sirius "the dog star" is pronounced. I do however have a friend that insists on pronouncing it like "Cyrus", which drives me fruitloops. Arioth From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Aug 6 10:04:34 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:04:34 -0000 Subject: Nymphadora Tonks = Weasley cousin? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75626 First of all, this is of course pure speculation. But I remember, that JKR said in an interview, that there was supposed to be a Weasley cousin in book 4, that should have played a similar role as Rita played later. But because of a plothole the cousin vanished, but JKR said that she might include her in later books. Now my question: Is it possible, that Tonks is this Weasley cousin? I mainly ask because 1: I don't see her purpose in book 5. She was quite nice, but really the most unimportant of all the new characters, who played sort of a mayor role. She is sort of an unimportant and in the end even underdeveloped character, yet, in contrast to most of the other new order members, at least she had sort of a character. 2: Her ability, being a metamorphagus, is ideal to spy on people. She could have disguised herself as another person each time to listen to Harry's, Hermione's and Ron's conversations, and therefore could have given informations to Rita, without being to suspicious. Of course this would have meant, that she was originally supposed to be a rather nasty character, and that it was maybe changed, because JKR wanted to bring her in somehow, and the Order seemed to be the best opportunity. Maybe the plothole was, that Tonks, even as a Metamorphagus, wasn't able to spy when Harry had the vision in Trelawney's class (and this is a very important scene, because it is the beginning od the misitry etc. not believing Harry). So unless she had kidnapped Trelawney to disguise herself as Sybill (or one of the students), she wouldn't have been able to see Harry's breakdown. So it was changed and Rita became a beetle-animagus. Hickengruendler From mad_scientist459 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 04:19:03 2003 From: mad_scientist459 at hotmail.com (nosilla allison) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 04:19:03 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: JKR hints at secret Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75627 >From: "Fred Waldrop" > >I have already made one comment on this, that what I found >interesting was at the end of the movie. It was where Crabbe started >to stand up, but Malfoy grabbed his robe and made him sit back down. >I also wanted to add this little bit, if you let the movie go through >ALL the credits, at the VERY, VERY end, there is one more scene, it >is about Lockhart. >It is quite funny, and I will let everyone who has not seen it, go >and see it. (I found it by mistake, was watching the movie while on >the computer and before I could turn the movie off, I saw it.) > >Fred Waldrop Honestly I just think Crabbe is thick and saw everyone doing and thought why not clap too but thats a good point it could be a sign! I'll look for the Lockhart scene at the end. ADMIN note: Please send further comments on Crabbe's actions in the movie to the Movie list. Thanks! From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 10:47:25 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:47:25 -0000 Subject: JKR hints at secret In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; > > I have already made one comment on this, that what I found > interesting was at the end of the movie. It was where Crabbe started > to stand up, but Malfoy grabbed his robe and made him sit back down. > I also wanted to add this little bit, if you let the movie go through > ALL the credits, at the VERY, VERY end, there is one more scene, it > is about Lockhart. > It is quite funny, and I will let everyone who has not seen it, go > and see it. (I found it by mistake, was watching the movie while on > the computer and before I could turn the movie off, I saw it.) > > Fred Waldrop You realise that there is a similar situation on the PS DVD where there are two scenes at the very end...... From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Aug 6 11:13:44 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 06:13:44 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Luna and Harry References: Message-ID: <3F30E2E8.8080407@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75629 greatlit2003 wrote: > Hi. Sorry if this has been posted already, I haven't read everything. > Could Luna and Harry grow closer, and possibly start dating? They > both have an interesting outlook on the world because of their life > experiences. I cannot imagine any ordinary girl (like Cho) dating > Harry again, because they cannot understand him. His life, as we see > at the end of OOP, is beyond the kind of stuff ordinary teenagers do. > I doubt Harry will show much interest in Quidditch (sob), > socializing, and "fun stuff" in general. I think he will become a > better student though, in order to learn how to fight V-mort. Harry > learned in OOP that he is not, and never will be, an ordinary person, > which he had tried so hard to be for four years. People like Cho > cannot understand this. Cho made a big deal about meeting Hermione; > Harry has many bigger things to deal with. Since Luna was the only > one who could make Harry feel better, I think she will become at > least a close friend, even a girlfriend. She has the insight and > experience to help Harry cope with the worst. Any thoughts? > > greatlit2003 > I suggested this as part of the posts on Harry and Cho, but noone seemed to pick up on it. I feel Luna and Harry will in fact grow closer. They have a lot in common afterall, being as both were thought of as crazy, though Luna wasn't troubled by the fact. In fact, she's not rattled by anything really. Jazmyn From scooting2win at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 12:52:26 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:52:26 -0000 Subject: Luna and Harry In-Reply-To: <3F30E2E8.8080407@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > greatlit2003 wrote: > > Hi. Sorry if this has been posted already, I haven't read everything. > > Could Luna and Harry grow closer, and possibly start dating? They > > both have an interesting outlook on the world because of their life > > experiences. I cannot imagine any ordinary girl (like Cho) dating > > Harry again, because they cannot understand him. His life, as we see > > at the end of OOP, is beyond the kind of stuff ordinary teenagers do. > > I doubt Harry will show much interest in Quidditch (sob), > > socializing, and "fun stuff" in general. I think he will become a > > better student though, in order to learn how to fight V-mort. Harry > > learned in OOP that he is not, and never will be, an ordinary person, > > which he had tried so hard to be for four years. People like Cho > > cannot understand this. Cho made a big deal about meeting Hermione; > > Harry has many bigger things to deal with. Since Luna was the only > > one who could make Harry feel better, I think she will become at > > least a close friend, even a girlfriend. She has the insight and > > experience to help Harry cope with the worst. Any thoughts? > > > > greatlit2003 > > > > > I suggested this as part of the posts on Harry and Cho, but noone seemed > to pick up on it. I feel Luna and Harry will in fact grow closer. They > have a lot in common afterall, being as both were thought of as crazy, > though Luna wasn't troubled by the fact. In fact, she's not rattled by > anything really. > > Jazmyn I also sugested this in the post "Still Stuck on Luna" but it turned into (and quickly) the ron/hermoine SHIP - Harry/hermoine ship. and all i could say to those post were WOW! there has been little discuss of her except that maybe she's a werewolf like Lupin, because of the name and that her mother died trying to make a spell to cure her daughter. now since she doesn't seem to dissappear once a month during the full moons but then again we don't really get to see or hear anything except for harry's POV. i hope she does explain it all at the end of 7 books but can't see her explaining everything using harry's point of view. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 13:00:11 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:00:11 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" wrote: > "Steve" wrote: > > > I'll post the links to threads that have already discussed this > > directly and indirectly. > > Certainly a handy time-saver. Thank you. > > > Is it possible that through some mathimatical formula, the > > inheritance will be distributed proportionaly amoung > > all living relatives? > > Unlikely. Traditionally Britain went by primogeniture (= eldest male > takes all) to prevent fortunes from being broken up. That the Black > forture has held together since the Middle Ages suggests the Blacks > have always done it that way. > > > Also, thanks to Kiricat and o_caipora for bringing up the > > 'entailments' issue. That certainly complicates matters, or at > > least, complicates it relative to what I want to happen. > > You're welcome. :) FYI, I don't like Draco. But unless there is a > relative we haven't been told about yet, it looks to me like Grimauld > Place and the Black fortune go to him. > > There are two issues: rightful occupation of the house, and ownership > of it. Three issues, if you count Kreacher. > > If Sirius formally leased the house to the OOP, it could continue to > rightfully occupy the house despite a change of ownership. If your > landlord sells or dies, you don't lose your lease. > > I somehow doubt Dumbledore and Sirius sat down and negotiated a > lease, though. > > If the house goes to a minor whose Death Eating parents are on the > run, someone else would have to act as trustee. That decision might > well go to the Wizengamot, the president of which could probably find > a way to pick an OOP sympathizer as trustee. By the time Draco is of > age the war will be over, anyways, and the OOP won't need a VWW Post. > > As to who inherits the ownership, we need to look at patrimony and > primogeniture. > > Modern society has great social mobility. The money you have is > essentially the money you've made. The vast majority of the richest > people in the U.S. are first- or second-generation rich, not "old > money". > > But up to the industrial revolution, if you had money you'd inherited > it. The word "patrimony" means "assets", but the Latin > means "father's money". Your money wasn't yours, it was your > family's: you had received it from your father and were expected to > leave it to your son. > > Under Brazilian law (with which I am more familiar than British) even > today by law half of your estate goes to your children. You can't > leave it all to a home for stray cats even if you want to. And if at > a not-so-advanced age you decide to spend what you've made to liven > your remaining years with wine, women and song, your children can sue > to stop you from dissipating their inheritance. > > After the American Civil War, some Confederate officers were > penalized with the loss of their properties *for their lifetimes*. > Use of their lands was auctioned off; when they died the lease ended > and their sons inheirited. That makes sense if you look at the > property as belonging to the family rather than the individual. > > More exotic than wizard law, isn't it? But the spirit is in line with > old British custom. > > Assuming Sirius made a will (and he had time those long months in > Grimauld Place), he could leave the property that did *not* come from > his father to whomever he wanted. It would not be entailed (unless > his uncle entailed it). His other house, his motorcycle, the money > from his uncle and so on could well go to Harry. With months on end > with nothing to do in Grimauld Place, he might well have written a > will. > > > It's unlikely that the fortune would be split in equal parts among > the Black cousins. It's likely it goes to the closest "pure blood" > male blood descendent, and that's Draco. Bellatrix's descendants if > any may be disqualified because she killed Sirius, but Draco can't be > disqualified because he's a git. > > As to Kreacher, creating an exceptionally heavy and ungainly tea- > service for him to carry might result in him agreeing to a reduction > in headcount under the traditional Black retirement policy. > > If he couldn't carry a tea-tray, I'm sure he'd feel like hanging his > head. > > - Caipora There is one problem here, Sirius uncle left him a good bit of money when he was around 16 and got wiped off the black family tree, in the chapter the ancient and noble house of black, so it appartently goes to who the person deceased left it too, and that would be Harry. i'm sure Dumbledore took take of making sure that Sirius prepare just in case something did happen. so therefore the house would be sure to be in proper hands, maybe Sirius as he had said before that all he could do was that house, maybe he gave that house to Dumbledore, for use for the order, making sure that it did not fall into the wrong hands, the cousins. Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 13:10:09 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:10:09 -0000 Subject: Nymphadora Tonks = Weasley cousin? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > First of all, this is of course pure speculation. But I remember, > that JKR said in an interview, that there was supposed to be a > Weasley cousin in book 4, that should have played a similar role as > Rita played later. But because of a plothole the cousin vanished, but > JKR said that she might include her in later books. > > Now my question: Is it possible, that Tonks is this Weasley cousin? I > mainly ask because > 1: I don't see her purpose in book 5. She was quite nice, but really > the most unimportant of all the new characters, who played sort of a > mayor role. She is sort of an unimportant and in the end even > underdeveloped character, yet, in contrast to most of the other new > order members, at least she had sort of a character. > > 2: Her ability, being a metamorphagus, is ideal to spy on people. She > could have disguised herself as another person each time to listen to > Harry's, Hermione's and Ron's conversations, and therefore could have > given informations to Rita, without being to suspicious. Of course > this would have meant, that she was originally supposed to be a > rather nasty character, and that it was maybe changed, because JKR > wanted to bring her in somehow, and the Order seemed to be the best > opportunity. > > Maybe the plothole was, that Tonks, even as a Metamorphagus, wasn't > able to spy when Harry had the vision in Trelawney's class (and this > is a very important scene, because it is the beginning od the misitry > etc. not believing Harry). So unless she had kidnapped Trelawney to > disguise herself as Sybill (or one of the students), she wouldn't > have been able to see Harry's breakdown. So it was changed and Rita > became a beetle-animagus. > > Hickengruendler Well Tonks is related to the Weasley's, Sirius said that Molly was his cousin and Arthur was his 2nd cousin, it's in the Noble and most ancient house of black chapter, when sirius said that he's related to Tonks, Molly, Arthur, and THE MALFOYS!. You might have skipped over it, it's not that compelling, but what i found intereresting was how Sirius put it. It seems to me that lots of people are getting "blown" off the family tree, except for people that are dead and did not give money to sirius, there are lots of things in there that i found interesting. the cousin being able to change her appearance that is an important bit of information, i don't think it was meant that she be so nice to harry but as it turned out they go well together, maybe she is going to teach harry how to change. and i would like to know when harry, ron, and hermoine going to begin training to change into animals. that has been referred to so many times i don't see it not happening, but i wish they would start it. Lori From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 6 13:31:00 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:31:00 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" > wrote: > > "Steve" wrote: > > > > Unlikely. Traditionally Britain went by primogeniture (= eldest > male > > takes all) to prevent fortunes from being broken up. That the > Black > > forture has held together since the Middle Ages suggests the > Blacks > > have always done it that way. > > > > > Also, thanks to Kiricat and o_caipora for bringing up the > > > 'entailments' issue. That certainly complicates matters, or at > > > least, complicates it relative to what I want to happen. > > > > You're welcome. :) FYI, I don't like Draco. But unless there is a > > relative we haven't been told about yet, it looks to me like > Grimauld > > Place and the Black fortune go to him. > > > > There are two issues: rightful occupation of the house, and > ownership > > of it. Three issues, if you count Kreacher. > > > > If Sirius formally leased the house to the OOP, it could continue > to > > rightfully occupy the house despite a change of ownership. If your > > landlord sells or dies, you don't lose your lease. > > > > I somehow doubt Dumbledore and Sirius sat down and negotiated a > > lease, though. > > > > If the house goes to a minor whose Death Eating parents are on the > > run, someone else would have to act as trustee. That decision > might > > well go to the Wizengamot, the president of which could probably > find > > a way to pick an OOP sympathizer as trustee. By the time Draco is > of > > age the war will be over, anyways, and the OOP won't need a VWW > Post. > > > > As to who inherits the ownership, we need to look at patrimony and > > primogeniture. > > > > Modern society has great social mobility. The money you have is > > essentially the money you've made. The vast majority of the > richest > > people in the U.S. are first- or second-generation rich, not "old > > money". > > > > But up to the industrial revolution, if you had money you'd > inherited > > it. The word "patrimony" means "assets", but the Latin > > means "father's money". Your money wasn't yours, it was your > > family's: you had received it from your father and were expected > to > > leave it to your son. > > > > Under Brazilian law (with which I am more familiar than British) > even > > today by law half of your estate goes to your children. You can't > > leave it all to a home for stray cats even if you want to. And if > at > > a not-so-advanced age you decide to spend what you've made to > liven > > your remaining years with wine, women and song, your children can > sue > > to stop you from dissipating their inheritance. > > > > After the American Civil War, some Confederate officers were > > penalized with the loss of their properties *for their lifetimes*. > > Use of their lands was auctioned off; when they died the lease > ended > > and their sons inheirited. That makes sense if you look at the > > property as belonging to the family rather than the individual. > > > > More exotic than wizard law, isn't it? But the spirit is in line > with > > old British custom. > > > > Assuming Sirius made a will (and he had time those long months in > > Grimauld Place), he could leave the property that did *not* come > from > > his father to whomever he wanted. It would not be entailed (unless > > his uncle entailed it). His other house, his motorcycle, the money > > from his uncle and so on could well go to Harry. With months on > end > > with nothing to do in Grimauld Place, he might well have written a > > will. > > > > > > It's unlikely that the fortune would be split in equal parts among > > the Black cousins. It's likely it goes to the closest "pure blood" > > male blood descendent, and that's Draco. Bellatrix's descendants > if > > any may be disqualified because she killed Sirius, but Draco can't > be > > disqualified because he's a git. > > > > As to Kreacher, creating an exceptionally heavy and ungainly tea- > > service for him to carry might result in him agreeing to a > reduction > > in headcount under the traditional Black retirement policy. > > > > If he couldn't carry a tea-tray, I'm sure he'd feel like hanging > his > > head. > > > > - Caipora > > There is one problem here, Sirius uncle left him a good bit of money > when he was around 16 and got wiped off the black family tree, in > the chapter the ancient and noble house of black, so it appartently > goes to who the person deceased left it too, and that would be > Harry. But, that was simply Uncle Alphard's money. If he earned it, he could give it to whomever he chose. If, however, Caipora's assumption that entailment is used for the property, then the property would automatically go to the closest male blood relative, regardless of the wishes of the (deceased) current owner. Plus, I don't think we can automatically assume Harry inherits anything of what's left, simply because he is the godson. i'm sure Dumbledore took take of making sure that Sirius > prepare just in case something did happen. so therefore the house > would be sure to be in proper hands, maybe Sirius as he had said > before that all he could do was that house, maybe he gave that house > to Dumbledore, for use for the order, making sure that it did not > fall into the wrong hands, the cousins. Lori We'll have to wait and see. If entailment is indeed used to pass on property, then neither Dumbledore's or Sirius' wishes would prevent the house from falling into someone else's hands. I don't have the book with me. Did Sirius tell Harry he "gave" the house to Dumbledore/the Order or did he say he "offered" it? If the latter, it would seem to me that Sirius did not give up ownership. Marianne From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 13:52:13 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 13:52:13 -0000 Subject: Second guessing JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75634 I sometimes wonder whether, here on the group, we get a little too involved in second guessing what Jo Rowling is intending us to read into her books. This thought came to mind when the writer of a recent message commented on whether there was any significance that when "Moody" had been using the Imperius curse in GOF, Hermione was not in the list of those named. Was there a deep and significant reason which books 6 & 7 would reveal? On the other hand, did Moody use all the members of the class? Or did he use Hermione but this fact wasn't mentioned in the text? I have cogitated for some time as to whether JKR spent a great deal of time putting together the words of the prophecy so that ambiguities would be perceived by those who like to dissect every paragraph of the book with a scalpel! By way of example, we have had deep treatises (and a good deal of fun) in trying to interpret what was meant by the use of "either" and to whom it referred. I wonder whether this was the case. Have readers ever written an email or a letter or said something to find that the reader or hearer has put a totally different slant on what was meant? Maybe JKR wrote down the words of the prophecy with her own specific line of thought in mind without stopping to consider how the readers might choose to see a different meaning ? or did she consider every word thinking "Aha! This'll get `em going. He, he". This is perhaps a trap of critical analysis that we assume that the writer has paralleled our line of thought and has indeed inserted material which can be analysed in umpteen ways; or perhaps we are tripping ourselves up in our own eagerness to "unfog the future". I shall await the arrival of books 6 & 7 with increasing impatience to see how accurate the outcomes of our musings are. One hope is that it is not a dream in the manner of Dallas or I shall be joining the lynch party! My only wish would be that HP does not die. He is a great survivor already; may it remain so. Geoff Bannister From jsmgleaner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 14:31:48 2003 From: jsmgleaner at yahoo.com (jsmgleaner) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:31:48 -0000 Subject: Second guessing JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75635 "Geoff Bannister" wrote: Have readers ever written an email or a > letter or said something to find that the reader or hearer has put a > totally different slant on what was meant? Maybe JKR wrote down the > words of the prophecy with her own specific line of thought in mind > without stopping to consider how the readers might choose to see a > different meaning ? or did she consider every word thinking "Aha! > This'll get `em going. He, he". This is perhaps a trap of critical > analysis that we assume that the writer has paralleled our line of > thought and has indeed inserted material which can be analysed in > umpteen ways; or perhaps we are tripping ourselves up in our own > eagerness to "unfog the future". me (jsmgleaner): I think that this is the central problem/opportunity in writing: the writer= does not have ultimate control over the readers' responses. One way a writer can tr= y to get across her intentions is to vet the work to good readers and rewrite ba= sed on the critiques. But once it's out there, published, the writer is not in= control of reception. To put another spin on it, many creative writers find this a= spect useful since readers, especially analytical ones, will find great things in= their works that they had not intended, making their own writing strange and exciting again. As for JKR, I think that our reception in this group is a product of her bo= oks, her way of sprinkling clues into a narrative that spans so many books (and = now so many years). As each new book comes out, it turns out how many clues were set in earlier books; this formula for writing will cause eager = fans to look for clues even if the evidence is thin (or perhaps most especially whe= n it is thin; what a coup to be correct then!). --jsmgleaner From p_yanna at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 14:35:02 2003 From: p_yanna at hotmail.com (frumenta) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:35:02 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Emily Rose wrote: > "John, C" > But, we also now know that James tormented Snape in school and so his > feelings of animosity towards Harry based on the treatment by Harry's father > are fairly justified. So, could you imagine what was going through Snape's > mind during say Book 1 when he was trying to save Harry from Quirrell's > broom jinx? It could have been Dumbledore or McGonagall who tried to save > Harry, but instead it was Snape. He probably wanted nothing more than to > watch the offspring of the school bully hit the ground from 50 feet in the > air, but instead he protected him. I know it was a plot point to make it > appear as though Snape was the bad guy, but given what we know about Snape > now, it gives the act new meaning. First of all, welcome to the list! Good to have another Snape fiend among us. Now, I think that for Snape to want to see Harry fall 50 feet down to his death because of what his father did, would be a bit much, don't you think? We don't know Snape's exact motives there (could have been the life debt to James) but I'm thinking that although Snape has difficulty telling Harry appart from James, he doesn't want his *dead*. Expelled, maybe but knows that Dumbledore would never do that... (can't wait for whatever Dumbledore will do to get Harry accepted into Snape's Potions class, next year) > > Even so Snape isn't a good guy in bad guy's clothing. He still pits Harry > against Malfoy at Lockhart's dueling session well knowing that they were > going to try and rip each other apart. I'm sure he enjoyed watching it too. Well... considering what an exceptional wizard Harry is, he was putting Draco in harm's way more than Harry. And there is the fact that he whispered in Draco's ear before Draco went to face Harry (a detail absent from the movie so perhaps isn't as important as I'd originally thought it to be). I always thought Snape told Draco to go for "serpensortia" to test his theory that Harry may be a Parseltongue (and was still shocked to discover that because it must have been a slight chance) If there is something that makes me see Snape in a very unflattering light it's of course his treatment of Neville as well as his "I see no difference" comment to Hermione (which has been debated to death), esp. considering that Hermione in particular has always treated him with respect. > By the way - this is a great list. I love the ideas of adults reading and > talking about Harry Potter books. Rowling's world is way too rich for it to > be just another kid's franchise from Warner Bros. > > -e Oh, i agree, this list is excellent. It contributes to keeping me and the people around me sane. Mim From malinit at excite.com Wed Aug 6 14:40:05 2003 From: malinit at excite.com (malinitosetti) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:40:05 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "holly_phoenix_11" wrote: > > > L o r d v o l d e m o r t - Loved , loved what, loved who, what is > > it! love .... anyone know Latin? I don't. there is something there. > > going to snap it in my laptop later and see what the latin > > dictionary comes up with. bet it's something good. any thoughts on > > this, someone want to beat me to the draw. Lori > > > > In French, "Voldemort" is analysed like this : > > Vol de Mort > > which means "sudden hit of death". This is mentioned in many sites > that have to do with the origin of names in the Harry Potter series, > and it is quite representing of the preference of LV to use the Avada > Kedavra curse on his victims. So, I don't think that LV is loving > someone or even more loved by someone, but in the sense that he most > of all fears death (he tries all his life to find a way to be > immortal) I think his name could be his own demise... a sudden hit of > death. > > cheers > holly_phoenix_11 Opinion of a french speaking person who studied latin in college: For Lori, in latin, love is "amor"... And for holly phoenix, in French, vol de mort means "flight of death" or "theft of death"... I don't understand the "sudden hit of death" thing... Hope it helps! Mali From kewiromeo at aol.com Wed Aug 6 14:44:22 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 10:44:22 -0400 Subject: Tonks Message-ID: <482FF455.3412D01B.0250B10A@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75638 Umbridge or MacGonagall says that they haven't taken and new Aurors in a few years, however we know that Tonks is relatively new to the force. She seems pretty young, and I think auror training is supposed to last for about 3 years. That would mean she would be a 6th or 7th year at Hogwarts when Harry started, if she was just out of Auror school. I suppose she is in her mid twenties or so to make her old enough that she wouldn't have been in school with Harry. As well, I'm very anti-conspiracy theory in this yahoo group, but she can change her appearance at will. I hope what we know of her is the origional, but we can't rule out her disguised as someone completely. Personally, I like her, although she doesn't have the biggest role. I suppose Harry's life was getting too mundane, and JKR had to throw in some bizarre character. Tzvi of Brooklyn From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 15:52:05 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:52:05 -0000 Subject: Tonks In-Reply-To: <482FF455.3412D01B.0250B10A@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75639 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > Umbridge or MacGonagall says that they haven't taken and new Aurors in a few years, however we know that Tonks is relatively new to the force. She seems pretty young, and I think auror training is supposed to last for about 3 years. That would mean she would be a 6th or 7th year at Hogwarts when Harry started, if she was just out of Auror school. I suppose she is in her mid twenties or so to make her old enough that she wouldn't have been in school with Harry. > Tonk's age has been discussed several time. I theink the concensus is that she's 22. (At least it's what I believe.) That would put her 7 years olderthan Harry so she'd leave Hogwarts right before he started. It also makes since with the Aurur timeline. She said she'd been an Auror for only a year. If we assume she was talking about when she finished her training (which I did) that would mean she'd been out of shcool 4 year. That would also fit with McGonnagal saying they hadn't accepted anybody new in 3 years. bibphile From lbiles at flash.net Wed Aug 6 16:04:23 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:04:23 -0000 Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lee" wrote: > ***snip*** > I have to remind everyone, who says that Neville, and Harry, and > Ron, and some-such, are failing potions, that... > > They are NOT failing potions! > > What they ARE doing is getting below average marks. They're getting > the typical *just enough to pass* or in Harry's case *average* marks. > ***snip*** > Oh, btw, am I the only one who thinks Harry is going on to Potions > NEWT level? Think about it... ;) > > Lee You're right -- they are not failing potions. In fact, doesn't Umbridge comment that the class is very advanced for their level when she is sitting in on the class? I can't find the quote right now to back it up but I am sure she said something along those lines. And yes, I too believe that Harry will take NEWT level potions with Snape as potions master. leb From acoteucla at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 16:06:45 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:06:45 -0000 Subject: Luna and Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > Hi. Sorry if this has been posted already, I haven't read everything. > Could Luna and Harry grow closer, and possibly start dating? They > both have an interesting outlook on the world because of their life > experiences. I cannot imagine any ordinary girl (like Cho) dating > Harry again, because they cannot understand him. His life, as we see > at the end of OOP, is beyond the kind of stuff ordinary teenagers do. > I doubt Harry will show much interest in Quidditch (sob), > socializing, and "fun stuff" in general. I think he will become a > better student though, in order to learn how to fight V-mort. Harry > learned in OOP that he is not, and never will be, an ordinary person, > which he had tried so hard to be for four years. People like Cho > cannot understand this. Cho made a big deal about meeting Hermione; > Harry has many bigger things to deal with. Since Luna was the only > one who could make Harry feel better, I think she will become at > least a close friend, even a girlfriend. She has the insight and > experience to help Harry cope with the worst. Any thoughts? > > greatlit2003 I also am in favor of Harry & Luna hooking up. However, the idea really doesn't seem to have a lot of popularity on this board. Probably because Luna is so weird, and so they don't want it to happen. But to be honest, it's exactly the kind of thing that Rowling would do. Harry dates the pretty, popular girl and finds out she's emotionally unstable and totally wrong for him. Then he dates the weird, unpopular girl, getting past his initial impression of her, and finds out she's really great! From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 6 16:12:23 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:12:23 +0100 Subject: Inheritance Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mtwelovett" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: snip > > > > But everyone seems to have forgotten about Godrics Hollow. Doesn't that > > belong to Harry now? > > As he's under age he will have to have a guardian to deal with the > > legal bits and pieces. > > > > Who is the guardian? By law it will be Petunia if no other arrangements > > (legal, not casual), have been made. Even if it was Sirius that now > > becomes null and void on his death and his heirs cannot inherit a > > guardianship for a non-family member. >> So just what did happen to it? > > > > Kneasy > > snip > Very interesting thought... Let's think about this some: > > Lupin is the last of the remaining close friends of James that we know > about (other than Dumbledore) ...... > > It would be scary to think of Wormtail as a guardian ....... > > Lily and James were in the order so they must have been close to > Dumbledore on some level overall... > ... Let's look at some of the others too though. > > McGonagall is another possibility, ........... > > We don't know any of Lily's close friends and I think the speculation > of Alice Longbottom being a close friend of Lily is reasonable,......... > There are other witches and wizards from the order that we know little of other than > names, and probably some that we don't even know names of, but that > doesn't seem to be something that JK would spring on us in the very > end without having heard of them at all ever. > > There is still the possibility of Mrs Figg being of some more > significant link,......... then Lily and James knew her, and she could be on > the guardian list too, and has also had a hand in overseeing him over the years. > > We don't know what has happened to James' Family. But from all > accounts Petunia is the last of Harry's relatives on his mother's > side. But that may mean immediate relatives, since I think there is > something to the Mark Evans boy too, or else why name him? Especially > Evans. > > Have I left out anyone significant? I think the Weasleys aren't part > of this time frame. I can't think if Arthur was in the order the first > time, but we know Molly was not. AND that seems to be some of that > cryptic time with the big gap in the Weasley children's ages. > > Whew! I didn't mean for this to get this long, and I don't think > anything got resolved, but it brought up some interesting ideas > anyway. Anyone have anything to add? > > Mtwelovett Hmm, a nicely comprehensive overview. Sorry to snip so hard, but it is getting to be an enormous posting. A couple of points; At the end of PS, Hagrid says that he sent messages round to friends of James and Lily asking for photographs. So far we've met just*one* who was in a position to reply - Lupin. Sirius was in Azkaban, Pettigrew was rodentially occupied and the Longbottoms (presuming they were friends, which is reasonable), were in St Mungos. Who were the others and are they going to sneak up on us? Theoretically, any parent of children around Harry's age could qualify; the Diggorys, the Lovegoods etc. There are also two other characters that could re-appear who fit the age bracket:- 1. Lockhart. I've a feeling we're not finished with him - selfish, manipulative, currently mentally incompetent but recovering. 2. Bagman. Another dubious type, linked to James through Quidditch. Could make some lovely plot lines with these, but it's a bit late in the series. They'll be back, I don't doubt, but not in this role. Now, Mark Evans. I'm suspicious. Evans isn't an uncommon name and JKR admitted in the Paxman interview that there were red herrings in OoP. I'd put him at the top of the fishy list. Remember Hagrid in the Hut on the Rock? He implied that the automatic protective magic that Harry had as a child is not unusual; that it showed he was a wizard. Neville showed it too. If Mark Evans was a wizard, I don't think Dudders *could* beat him up. For guardianship, the absolutely *key* question - who gave Hagrid the key to Harrys' vault? DD is the likeliest suspect. But it's odd that he's never suggested Harry visit Godrics Hollow, or even mentioned it by name, so far as I can recall. There's always the possibility that Godrics Hollow was not the Potters home, but a safe house, a hide-out, a bit like Grimmauld Place. I'm babbling here, but bear with me. The Potters and others knew that Voldy was coming after them, probably from Spy!Snape. DD takes the invisibility cloak, the vault key and maybe more, into safekeeping. They go into hiding - not in their own home. Why else have a Secret Keeper? Many must have known where they lived in normal circumstances. OK, places can be made unplottable, but that doesn't mean you can't find them if you already know where they are. I can only find Godrics Hollow referred to as 'house' not a 'home', wording that could be significant knowing JKRs emphasis on the magical powers of "home' So, is it home? If not, where is? And who has the keys? Kneasy From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Wed Aug 6 16:15:01 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:15:01 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Trust_(was:_Re:_Severus_snape=B4s_possible_ethnic_background)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: The only > people I can think of that we've seen distrust Snape are Hermione > (PS only), Ron, Sirius, and Harry. Harry is the only one of those > eho knows Snape used to be a Death Eater (I think) Ron and Hermione were also present when Snape showed Fudge his Dark Mark. From music4masses at earthlink.net Wed Aug 6 16:36:39 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (music4masses) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 12:36:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Luna and Harry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030806121256.00a8d630@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75644 At 12:06 PM 8/6/2003, you wrote: > > greatlit2003 > >I also am in favor of Harry & Luna hooking up. However, the idea >really doesn't seem to have a lot of popularity on this board. >Probably because Luna is so weird, and so they don't want it to >happen. But to be honest, it's exactly the kind of thing that >Rowling would do. Harry dates the pretty, popular girl and finds out >she's emotionally unstable and totally wrong for him. Then he dates >the weird, unpopular girl, getting past his initial impression of >her, and finds out she's really great! Erin: I'm with you on this too, especially since their last encounter is OOTP. It sends a really good message, as well. Luna seems to be another example of a "weird" character turning out to be pretty cool. I also think she'd be good for Harry, even if only for a time. They play off one another well and she balances out Hermione as a female influence. Luna even reminds me of Dumbledore a bit. She's, um, "unique" and has sort of a quiet wisdom. I hope it does happen. I'm not good at pairing speculation, though, so... From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 16:53:32 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:53:32 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "malinitosetti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "holly_phoenix_11" > wrote: > > > Holly: > > L o r d v o l d e m o r t - Loved , loved what, loved who, what > is > > > it! love .... anyone know Latin? I don't. there is something > there. > > > going to snap it in my laptop later and see what the latin > > > dictionary comes up with. bet it's something good. any thoughts > on > > > this, someone want to beat me to the draw. Lori > > > > > > > > In French, "Voldemort" is analysed like this : > > > > Vol de Mort > > > > which means "sudden hit of death". This is mentioned in many sites > > that have to do with the origin of names in the Harry Potter > series, > > and it is quite representing of the preference of LV to use the > Avada > > Kedavra curse on his victims. So, I don't think that LV is loving > > someone or even more loved by someone, but in the sense that he > most > > of all fears death (he tries all his life to find a way to be > > immortal) I think his name could be his own demise... a sudden hit > of > > death. > > > > cheers > > holly_phoenix_11 > > Mali: > Opinion of a french speaking person who studied latin in college: > > For Lori, in latin, love is "amor"... > > And for holly phoenix, in French, vol de mort means "flight of death" > or "theft of death"... I don't understand the "sudden hit of death" > thing... > > Hope it helps! > > Mali Geoff: It can also mean "wing of death" which I find more descriptive.... Maybe association with the angel of death? From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Wed Aug 6 17:11:05 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:11:05 -0000 Subject: rumors of Dumbledore's escape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tyoria" wrote: > hello, I'm new here. :) > > I just wanted to know if anyone else caught this error, at the > beginning of chapter twenty-nine: > > "The notices had gone up all over the school overnight, but they did > not explain how every single person within the castle seemed to know > that Dumbledore had overcome two Aurors, the High Inquisitor, the > Minister of Magic, and his Junior Assistant to escape." > > But Dumbledore DIDN'T overcome the Junior Assistant, remember? Fudge > sent Percy off to deliver an owl just beforehand. Is this an error on > JKR's part, or a clue? > > I notice that in the previous chapter, Harry feels something brush > against him that he later attributes to Kingsley's spell. But what if > it was someone in an invisibility cloak leaving the room? They would > have known that Harry and Marietta were the only students to have > witnessed the scene, but they WOULDN'T have known that Percy left > shortly afterwards, so they assumed that he was still in the room > when Dumbledore made his getaway. That could also explain why some of > the other information the students had was inaccurate, like Fudge > having a pumpkin for a head... I just assumed they lumped all the people who were seen to have arrived as part of Fusge's entourage togehter. THe brush past his sleeve, I assumed to be the spell being cast from Kingsley to Marietta. Ans as for how everyone knew, I assumed it is like where Harry's name came out of the GoF: the portraits talk and gossip and pass along info. (More evidence of this is that one of the portraits in Dumbledore's office told Ernie Macmillian that Harry used Gryffindor's sword to kill a basilisk.) But, you never know, you could be right. I just explained everything away a different way. Arya From rmm7e at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 17:29:08 2003 From: rmm7e at yahoo.com (Regina) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:29:08 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Emily Rose wrote: > We also know from Book 4 that Voldemort > knows that Snape isn't coming back and he's pissed off about it. How do we know this? Is this in reference to Voldemort's speech in the graveyard, when he says he believes one has left him forever and will be killed? I had assumed that V was referring to Snape at the time I read it, but now I'm not so sure. > And since Snape is now a member of the Order again, he is once again putting > his life on the line to protect Harry and fight the man he betrayed. But what if Voldemort still believes Snape is loyal to him? The whole Occlumency thing...Voldemort knows when someone is lying to him because he is a Legilimens. But if Snape is skilled at occlumency, he would be able to prevent Voldemort from entering his mind and knowing that he's lying. So it's possible that Voldemort still thinks he's loyal. The big question is what makes DD so sure Snape is on his side? Can't wait to find out. I have a feeling that in the next two books > we're going to see some really interesting things from Snape and I'm very > much looking forward to it. Me too! Regina S. From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 17:46:19 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:46:19 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Severus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75648 Confessions of a Hopeless Snape Fan, part II Severus (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Honey Pie_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html Dedicated to my fellow Snape-freaks He was a Death Eater with Lord Voldemort Now he's mixing potions beside Dumbledore All of the Snape fans out there are who I'm speaking for: Severus, you have caught my attention Would you give me detention? There I could speak my mind Oh, Severus, I think that you're Dead Sexy If you want you can hex me anyplace, anytime I don't agree with the way you treat Harry But when you're acting snarky then I can feel my heart beat Oh, Severus, your actions are a complex thing I find it so perplexing - but still I think you're fine Severus, I think you're fine Oooo! Yeah! I like him like that, ooo-ah! I like him dark and mysterious, dark and mysterious...does something to me, that sexy Potions Master Will we learn by the last book of the series The reason for you leavin' Voldy? De, de, de Now, Severus, in you Dumbledore's trusting I feel this song I must sing: won't you please be mine? Please, please be mine Severus Snape! Severus, Severus -Gail B...shamelessly throwing herself at Snape's feet...heh, just call me bent _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Wed Aug 6 15:29:21 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 11:29:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Questions on Boggarts References: Message-ID: <3F311ED1.3080503@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75649 Random wrote: > > what happens when the full moon is during the time when the moon's up > in the daytime, or if during the entire "few minutes" and presumably > hours afterward that it's full it's at the other side of the world? At all times (except during eclipses) the half of the moon facing the sun is illuminated. A full moon occurs when all of that illuminated half (or very nearly all) is visible. That can only happen when the earth is between the sun and moon, which means that a full moon can't be seen in the daytime. From kfc4588 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 18:40:45 2003 From: kfc4588 at yahoo.com (kfc4588) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:40:45 -0000 Subject: Snape's grading may not be fair, but... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75650 > > And yes, I too believe that Harry will take NEWT level potions with > Snape as potions master. > > leb even if harry somehow doesnt do NEWT potions- he will have classes with Snape.. i really dont think JKR will stop those, i think they will probably be potions but they could be a variety of things discussed on these boards (occlumency, DADA etc) but harry somehow is oging to forever have classes with Snape. I think its just too important to the plot to take out **Casey** From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 18:50:05 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:50:05 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75651 In the weeks leading up to the release of OoP, after JKR revealed that a major character died, there was a lot of speculation about who it would be, and if I remember correctly, Sirius was not high on anyone's list. Now that we know it was him, and now that we have had about six weeks to analyze every single word/theme/hint/prediction in the book, I am wondering what people's theories are about why, in the name of the plot, Sirius had to die. There are a lot of possibilities, some obvious, and some less so. For example, 1. To give Harry another loss of a parent figure, in order to encourage some sort of internal emotional growth necessary for his development into a person capable of killing LV. (but you may argue that any of a number of other people could have died instead) 2. To create difficulties for the OoP along the lines mentioned in the thread "inheritance" regarding who gets GP, how to deal with Kreacher's knowledge, etc. (this seems to me to be the most pure theory for "why sirius" and not someone else) 3. To create a reason for Harry to travel "beyond the veil" to gain some understanding he needs to defeat LV. Any other ideas? Mhershey From yellows at aol.com Wed Aug 6 18:51:50 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:51:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) Message-ID: <1E4A4D55.1540B51B.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75652 In a message dated 8/6/2003 10:35:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Mim writes: > We don't know Snape's exact motives there (could have been the life > debt to James) but I'm thinking that although Snape has difficulty > telling Harry appart from James, he doesn't want his *dead*. > Expelled, maybe but knows that Dumbledore would never do > that... My impression of Snape is that he *doesn't* really hate Harry. Remember how Mrs. Figg said she purposely tried to be boring so that Harry would hate going there, and therefore be sent to her house regularly. What if Snape works hard to make Harry hate him so that Draco Malfoy can report home to his DE family that Snape is definitely *not* on Harry Potter's side? Brief Chronicles From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 12:15:03 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 05:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Has The Right To Know The Whole Truth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030806121503.96734.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75653 Now that Dumbledore has divulged the prophecy to Harry, Harry has the right to know everything. If he's the only one capable of taking down the Dark Lord or die trying, he should be told: 1. What power in the room at the Dept. of Mysteries does Harry possess that the Dark Lord knows not. I know some think it's love, but is it? Or is love only part of it? Or is it a lot more complex? Dumbledore needs to tell Harry exactly what it is if it'll save his life and help him defeat Voldemort. 2. What did his parents do for a living? Someone theorized that one or both might have worked in that room in the Dept. of Mysteries, if so, Harry should know. 3. What's beyond the veil? Harry has the right to know what happened to Sirius when he fell through. 4. Harry should be allowed membership into the Order and be able to attend their meetings. After all, the purposes of the organization is to stop Voldemort, and only Harry can do that. 5. Harry has the right to know why Dumbledore trusts Snape. What did Snape do to win him over? Dumbledore is still holding back a lot of information. Harry'll be 16 and needs to be treated like an adult because of his situation. His future depends on it. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From tallulah_sam at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 14:17:04 2003 From: tallulah_sam at hotmail.com (tallulah_sam) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:17:04 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75654 Some things that have been troubling me since reading Gof... 1) when Hermione states when talking about the judges for the Triwizard Tournament.. "Well the heads of the schools are always on the panel"...."because all three of them were injured during the tournament of 1792" So...does this mean the heads of the schools at any time the tornament is on are on the panel or does it mean Dumbledore,Karkaroff and Maxime are always on the panel? 2) Why does Moody (a.k.a crouch) teach them the unforgivable curses? why does he make sure Harry can fight off the imperious curse? Surely this is a hinderance to LV? 3) How did the Riddles die? it says they looked shocked-did they die from looking at the basilik? or is Nagini not a basilik?Im confused!! Any ideas would be welcome! Tallulah From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 6 14:36:42 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 14:36:42 -0000 Subject: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75655 > > I definitely see a love triangle in the works for HRH. > > I believe John Granger, who wrote _The Hidden Key to Harry Potter_, > suspects such in the future because of the historical connotations > behind Hermione's name. > > A.J. Of course!! Thank-you. A.J. I started the original HRH Love Triangle & Ron's downfall thread and I had completely forgotten about Shakespeare's Hermione. And The Winters Tale is one of my favorite plays too. I guess it must have been in my brain subconsciously though. If I remember correctly jealous Leontes has the pregnant Hermione and their son arrested and imprisoned where the boy dies. Hermione gives birth to a daughter and fakes her own death. The daughter is supposed to be executed under Leontes orders but is hidden in the forest instead. Leontes and Polixenes become enemies for 20 years until reconciling in the end. Hermione symbolically comes back to life after Leontes apologizes for the 'deaths' of their son and daughter. Nasty business but a good example of what jealousy can do in a love triangle. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 6 15:07:48 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:07:48 -0000 Subject: Why Bella didn't disapparate-was OOP Azkaban effects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75656 > Annemehr's two Knuts: > First, why didn't Bellatrix apparate away? I think she knew full > well (and intended?) that Harry followed her out of the Death > Chamber. They ended up in the Atrium where she began taunting him > and *trying to get the prophecy* from Harry. She didn't know it had > broken until Voldemort appeared (apparated) and confirmed it was > true. Me: I absolutely agree with Annemehr. Bella didn't apperate because she was after the prophecy and believed Harry still had it. Her mission was to get that orb whatever the cost; she was not about to leave without it. Don't forget Bellatix is a warrior, an evil one, but a warrior who was on a mission. She took the risk that Harry would follow her and it paid off as he took the bait even though she ultimately failed. I would not underestimate Bellatrix Lestrange. Even though she was in Azkaban for 14 years, she is still a powerful witch. She killed Sirius Black and is highly prized by Voldmorte. After all LV took a huge risk coming back to the Ministry just to get her. He knew the place would be swarming with Officials and Dumbledore was still there. Not to mention he revealed himself to be alive to many witnesses. Sure LV needs her, as the rest of his army are now arrested, but how long is Azkaban going to hold the Death Eaters without the Dementors? Not long. It seems a big risk to have taken for one Death Eater. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 6 15:28:55 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:28:55 -0000 Subject: What's the point of Houses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75657 > Hello. > I am wondering why Hogwarts needs these different Houses to begin > with. I mean, what is the point of sorting all the brave students to > live in a dorm together, all the ambitious people together, etc.? > What does that accomplish? Everyone receives the same education > anyway (different Houses have classes together). I understand that > the students need to be placed in groups for the sake of > organization, but why does that organization (i.e. Sorting) depend on > their personality? Why can't the Hat just randomly select students > for each House? A lot of bad will seems to crop up at Hogwarts in > large part to the House system. Any thoughts? > greatlit2003 Me: It's pure British tradition and a very old fashioned one that still exists at many schools today. Being British and having went through a girls school that has Houses, I can explain that its used to create loyalty, to encourage strong fraternity/sorority, promote competition. As well as stimulating segregation and the need to socialize 'only' with ones peers. I remember well the feeling that my house was my home and the strong loyalty and jubilation at winning the house cup at the end of the year. Which we did twice while I was there. You see, I still feel the need to tell you, a stranger, that bit of completely irrelevant information. Who care if my house won twice, right? I still do. Today in America I would equate it with employee brand loyalty. If you work of a corporation like Coca Cola, (this is a hypothetical example as I've never worked for Coca Cola) the company goes to great lengths to ensure you, as an employee, feels as if you belong to the 'family,' and that Pepsi is the 'enemy'. I'm sure those words are not used but you get the idea. It helps to promote loyalty in its employees to work towards a common goal with common allies and common enemies. I'm afraid this is not a good explanation but I'm sure there are many better scholars out there that can explain what I'm trying to say better. Mandy From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 15:31:13 2003 From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (Anna) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:31:13 -0000 Subject: Remus and Tonks [SHIP] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tuck668" wrote: > > > > > > > > > Remus and Tonks may work closely together for Harry's benefit, but > I > > do not foresee any cool relationship or Love here. I think the manner in which Lupin introduced Tonks to Harry had a bit of a spark in it. I'll admit that I did not pick up on this when I first read the book. In fact, it was only when I listened to the audio book that I thought about it. Who knows, maybe it was just the way Jim Dale delivered the line. (I love his Lupin voice) Maybe I am trying way too hard to find a love interest for Lupin. Oh well, something to think about. By the way, I'm new, so please don't be mean to me :) "Anna" From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Aug 6 19:16:20 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (that space cadet glow) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:16:20 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75659 > Some things that have been troubling me since reading Gof... > 1) when Hermione states when talking about the judges for the > Triwizard Tournament.. "Well the heads of the schools are always on > the panel"...."because all three of them were injured during the > tournament of 1792" So...does this mean the heads of the schools at > any time the tornament is on are on the panel or does it mean > Dumbledore,Karkaroff and Maxime are always on the panel? It means that the heads of the schools are always on the panel. Are you asking if DD, Karkaroff and Maxime were on the panel in 1792? That wouldn't make sense, they weren't even alive back then! > > 2) Why does Moody (a.k.a crouch) teach them the unforgivable curses? > why does he make sure Harry can fight off the imperious curse? > Surely this is a hinderance to LV? I think he did it to maintain his cover. He had to behave and do exactly as the real Moody would have done, it was the only way to make sure DD didn't catch on to what he was really doing. Teaching Harry to throw off the Imperius Curse probably did help Harry out to a degree, but getting his cover blown too early in the game would have hurt LV's chances more than teaching Harry did. > > 3) How did the Riddles die? it says they looked shocked-did they die > from looking at the basilik? or is Nagini not a basilik?Im confused!! Tom Riddle used Avada Kedavra on them. Nagini's not a basilisk, she's just a regular snake. Probably a poisonous snake, but not a basilisk. Basilisks are supposed to be really rare, I think it says something about that in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. ~dream From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Aug 6 19:21:08 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (that space cadet glow) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:21:08 -0000 Subject: Second guessing JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I sometimes wonder whether, here on the group, we get a little too > involved in second guessing what Jo Rowling is intending us to read > into her books. I've often had similar thoughts, which is why I've been reading less of theories on the web, because I don't really like to try and psych out the author too much. For one thing, I want to be surprised. I'd be really disappointed if I did manage to guess everything that was going to happen. And also a lot of stuff I read as well seems to be reading into things farther than I often think is plausible. I've tried making predictions and have failed miserably for the most part. One thing that often gets overlooked as well in online theories is the fact that only JKR can create new characters or take any old ones away, which makes for a lot less predictability on her part. There's no way I saw the likes of Umbridge coming along, for instance, or Luna Lovegood for that matter. And they both had significant impacts on what happened in OOTP. ~dream From clarinut76 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 15:52:33 2003 From: clarinut76 at yahoo.com (clarinut76) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:52:33 -0000 Subject: Pure Blood Parentage Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75662 I haven't posted in a very long time, but I've been avidly re-reading all the Harry books in order. Here's a question I've come to again and again, and JK has never really explained it very well. Perhaps this has already been discussed, I can't be sure. How long are you a half-blood? I mean, if James was born from two wizards, he'd be a pure blood (we've never heard mention anything different) and Lilly seems to come from a muggle family (lots of debate on this, I'm sure...). Harry is considered a half-blood for this reason, but since he's born of a wizard and a witch, couldn't he be thought of as a pure blood? Is the muggle blood thing always there? I'd love to hear your answers on this! Cheers, Rachel From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:22:22 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:22:22 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience (was Why Bella didn't disapparate/ OOP Az. effects) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > Annemehr's two Knuts: > First, why didn't Bellatrix apparate away? I think she knew full > well (and intended?) that Harry followed her out of the Death > Chamber. *** "snip" Furthermore, I think Dumbledore's anti- apparation jinxes were applied to the DEs individually and so he'd missed Bellatrix and obviously didn't get Voldemort either. >*** "snip" > Annemehr Talisman, folding away her copy of the Quibbler, and tucking the Stubby Boardman clippings into her files, observes: Yes, I think it's quit clear that Bellatrix was luring Harry to a tactically superior field of battle. But I wonder that you don't find it odd that Dumbledore "missed" Bellatrix with his "apparation jinx," as you call it. Implausibly odd, in fact, that Dumbledore: 1) managed to subdue every DE but Bellatrix, when she was battling Sirius, 2) that he was "unable" to stop her, not just with the first deflected spell, but as she trotted up the rest of the stairs, and 3)that it took Dumbledore so long to show up in the Atrium, when he was obviously watching Bellatrix leave and Harry give chase. Then of course we have a totally different view of Dumbledore who quickly takes Bella out of the battle and then strolls around the Atrium managing Voldemort(intentionally using non-lethal spells) with effectatious ease.(OoP 813, et seq.) Indeed,I suggest you consider that Dumbledore wanted Harry to follow Bella, and to encounter Voldemort in the Atrium. I do believe he was well aware of what was going on, and had once again co-opted Voldemort's plan to work for his own ends. For those of you on the TBAY beach shouting "IDIOT is dead," let me assure that I am not here to resurrect it, though if you scuttled it because of Dumbledore's speech about being an "old fool," I despair entirely. I take the occasion to note that in such a "grownup" environment, with so many outraged posts about predjudice, ageism has always been in full flower. I doubt not that our stiletto-wielding Author expects many cheerfully S.P.E.W.-buttoned readers to accept this rationale, because they themselves equate age with foolishness. Dumbledore is nobody's fool. You cannot read his excuses and compare them to what you actually know from the texts without realizing that he is lying a great deal of the time. No, Dumbledore knows--more than we do--what is going on and he is controlling the action to a great extent. However, if you will allow me(in this evolving post-de- constructionist milieu)to advert to the nomenclature of the old Structuralist, Northrup Frye, the Harry Potter series is not "undisplaced myth." That is to say, we are not dealing with the gods and goddesses that people pure myth, hence we should not expect truly omniscient beings. The world of wizardry places us in the literary Mode of Romance, where protagonists, though not numina, are extra-ordinary beings. Those readers who have seen some small lapse (always inconsequential) and have comforted themselves with the notion that Dumbledore is a dottering old Santa who can no longer chew what he has bitten off, are likely to be bitten in the behind. For now let me just remind you that, in the June 2003 Albert Hall interview, JK calls Dumbledore "a very wise man" who has to both "step back" to allow Harry to learn some hard lessons, and, she agrees with Stephen Frye, "push the little birds from the nest." Therefore, the author comprehends Dumbledore to act both omissively and comissively--with intention--to prepare Harry for "what is to come." She does not say, "well he's getting older you know, screwing up a bit . . ." Fair warning to the faint-hearted, as soon as the snares of this world give me time, I will launch the good ship, NO DIPP(Not Omniscient, Dumbledore IS Preternaturally Prescient), into TBAY, and defend her with good canon. Talisman, who wonders if Johnny Depp would lend her some "Capt. Jack Sparrow togs" for the trip. From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Aug 6 19:23:42 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (that space cadet glow) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:23:42 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75664 My theory on why Sirius had to die has to do with the fact that for the first time, we really see Harry screw up and fail. It's because of Harry's actions (as well as DD's) that Sirius wound up being in the DoM and getting killed at all. We saw Harry fall into a trap and that's a learning experience for us as well as Harry. We learn that Harry isn't always a perfect hero and Harry learns that being rash can have deadly consequences (I hope that's what he winds up learning, anyway). ~dream From esaulgd at cantv.net Wed Aug 6 15:57:34 2003 From: esaulgd at cantv.net (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Enrique_Sa=FAl_Gonz=E1lez?=) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:57:34 -0400 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho Message-ID: <003501c35c33$74933dc0$a2c654c8@SAUL> No: HPFGUIDX 75665 From: "feetmadeofclay" Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2003 6:28 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Cho > I don't ask that Harry be a saint only that he behave as he > would like to be treated. That he understand and accept that Cho is a > girl with feelings. His choice to see her as nothing at all, is his > own. > If she seems to good to be true, then perhaps we should all consider > if Harry is also a charicature of teenage behaviour. > Harry isn't irredeemable, but his mistakes are his own. The way he > treated Cho is a great mistake. He treated her horribly. -- You're right in saying Harry made mistakes. Hopefully he will learn from them. However, I don't think these mistakes are reflections of an uncaring personality. I think he simply didn't know better. I think it is quite clear that Harry acts mostly by instinct when it comes to Cho. He has absolutely no romantic experience or knowledge. He has no way of knowing how a relationship is supposed to work. Look at all the ways a teenager has of learning about love/romance/sex and you'll see Harry has had none. He hasn't had access to movies or TV at the Dursley's or in Hogwarts. I don't think he reads romantic novels. There is no sex ed at Hogwarts that we know of. He has never touched the topic with any of his parental figures. The only close enough friends he has to discuss this with are Hermione (ruled out because she's a member of the opposite sex) and Ron. Ron, while far from a ladies' man, certainly seems to know a good deal more about romance than Harry. Yet if they had ever discussed the topic, I think there would be some hint of it in the books. Then again, with Ron struggling with his own feelings for Hermione, I doubt he'd break the topic to Harry. So Jo's picture of teenage romance may be unrealistic, but we don't have another orphaned wizard teenager who faces death on a regular basis to make a comparison with, so I wouldn't reject Jo's take in the case so quickly. On a different yet related topic, I'd like to point out that while Cho's change in personality might be justified, I believe it could have been more subtle or shown more gradually. It would have made it more believable and better written. Now, we may never be sure of what was Cho's true self before Cedric's death or if she was truly attracted to Harry instead of just chasing him for his connection to Cedric. -- Nintendo Proud Alumni of ~ Ravenclaw ~ (a.k.a. Gryffindors' Dating Service) From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:27:10 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:27:10 -0000 Subject: SYM: <>< and a bit of DENIAL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75666 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "terryljames76" wrote: > The <>< in the title line is a fish, and is intended to warn the > reader that Christian ideas--or at least my interpretation of > Christian ideas--are referred to herein. > > A comment has been made a few times here that JKR has said if you are > familiar with Christian theology, you could predict the end of the > series. If this is indeed a correct quote, here's my idea on how > that could possibly go. I'm taking the whole "sacrifice" thing and > twisting it one-quarter turn crossways to reality. > > One prevailing theme of the "Harry will die" camp is that Harry is > the Christ-like figure who must die to save the wizarding world and > possibly Voldemort himself. > > But this goes against the "Harry as Everyman" idea. On OT-chatter > the idea has been brought up that by reading these books, we not only > feel that we are witnessing Harry's struggles, but that we are > participating; that somehow, just by reading, we are helping him. On > a subconscious level, I think we feel that way because we identify so > strongly with Harry that his struggles are our own; the support we > want to give him so badly is the support we ourselves need. Harry is > the human in need of redemption; Harry is Adam. > > When Harry was only a baby, Voldemort tried to kill him, and marked > him permanently. This ties in with the Biblical idea of the snake > (Satan) attacking the very first man and woman and marking them > permanently with sin. > > Harry has bumbled his way through a lot of adventures through sheer > nerve, bravery, a lot of luck and a lot of help--as he himself points > out, he didn't know what he was doing most of the time. In the fifth > book, it has been brought home to him sharply that that won't work > forever. He can't always rush into danger and expect everything to > work out. Harry is beginning to realize that he can't save > himself. > > So, somebody else--not Harry, who represents humanity--has to die. > Who? > > Let's forget for the moment that traditionally the week starts on > Sunday. JKR always starts school term on Mondays, so allow me the > same narrative freedom. The fifth day of the week would then be > Friday. On a Friday (according to tradition) two thousand years ago, > someone died to save humanity. In the fifth book, someone died to > save others--specifically, Harry. > > I know, I know--Sirius?!? Keep following, I really am going > someplace with this. Sirius was not Harry's real father, but had > become a father figure to him--just as many denominations refer to > God as "Father". > > (Puts on DENIAList hat) Now, if we follow the Christian pattern as I > understand it, Sirius will stay "dead" throughout the sixth book > (Saturday) but will show back up in Book 7 (Sunday). His rebirth or > escape or whatever will have significant impact on the final battle- - > victory would not have been possible without it. However, for > whatever reason, he will be unable to stay on this side of the veil, > and will have to leave forever, but not before leaving a "comforter", > maybe a portrait. > > Does this make Harry any less important, or his confrontation with > Voldemort any less dangerous? Not at all. In the Christian world- > view, the sacrifice and resurrection of Christ gained victory over > sin and Satan eternally, but the battle is still being fought in > every person's heart as to whether they will accept it, or turn > towards sin. > > Even if the final battle was fought and Voldemort was destroyed > totally, but Harry had had to turn Dark and Evil to do it, that would > not be a victory--for him, or for us the readers. However, even if > the final battle is outside Harry's control, but he is able to > maintain his integrity and honor, then the true victory is his--and > ours, as he personifies all of our struggles. > > If you think this would not be satisfying in a narrative sense, think > back to the ends of the other books. Harry only lived in PS/SS by > his mother's sacrifice. He only survived in CoS because Fawkes came > to his rescue. He was never in real danger at the end of PoA. He > was able to thwart V. in GoF by the lucky chance of the "brother" > wands. And the DA, the Order and Dumbledore himself bailed him out > at the end of OOP. > > This is not to impugn Harry's character. He seized the initiatives > provided by all this help and made the most of it. His bravery > cannot be denied. But he has never been able to save himself. The > only thing he can do is the only thing, in the end, that we can all > do--try to make the right choices, and do the right thing, and stand > up for what is right and what is good. > > It's also interesting to note that in Revelations, there's some verse > that goes along the line of (my apocalypse scripture is rusty, this > is the best I can do) "and they cast the beast, Lucifer, the dragon, > into the lake of fire". There goes Draco and his dad, both in one > toss. > > Now, the sticking point in this whole theory--Sirius as Christ? Yes, > that's a tad bizarre, and I _like_ Sirius. I'll go work on that some > more. > > Terry LJ (who really shouldn't eat frito chili pies before bed, as > they tend to result in strange theories) That is a very good theroy... it explains alot and it goes good with canon and what shes said. Garrett From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 16:08:18 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:08:18 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > > > "John, C" > > (quoting from interview) > > > We also know from Book 4 that Voldemort > > knows that Snape isn't coming back and he's pissed off about it. > It makes> me think that Snape's name is probably second on > Voldemort's "People to Kill> when I come into Power List" right under > Harry's. > > [[snip]] > > > So, could you imagine what was going through Snape's > > mind during say Book 1 when he was trying to save Harry from > Quirrell's> broom jinx? [[snip, again]] > > > Margaret replied: > Yes, but Snape was the only one who suspected Quirrel of being in > league with LV, so the other teacher's probably needed a bit of time > to figure out what was going on. Snape was already keeping a close > eye on Quirrell by that point. [[snip]] me (shirley): Three thoughts/questions that reading this exchange just made me think of.... (and my apologies if these have been covered in previous posts; I only joined about a week ago): First, do we really *know* that it's Snape that LV is talking about in the circle of DEs toward the end of Book 4? I know that I figured that it was Snape who was lost forever (or however he worded it) as a Death Eater, but has that ever been confirmed? Second, and this may be trickier, since Snape was the only one who suspected Quirrel of being in league with LV in Book 1, is that how LV knows that Snape is no longer with him (LV)? Does he know it because he was sitting (for lack of a better way to word it) on the back of Quirrel's head the whole time, listening to Snape trying to prevent Quirrel from getting to the stone? Third, I always thought that Snape, the spy, was still showing up at LV's lair/hideout as himself - still a loyal DE - and using Occlumency to keep LV from seeing that he was a spy. However, (this thought struck me as I was typing the second point above) if LV knows that Snape is no longer on his side, then is Snape spying in another form (Animagus, invisibility cloak, something??), and what form is it? Whoa, I've just boggled my own mind! ;-) Does anyone have thoughts on this? Thanks for letting me ramble. I must get back to work for now.... Shirley From jane_starr at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 16:24:20 2003 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Squibs-genetics gone wrong or (more & long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030806162420.27148.qmail@web13807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75668 --- Kaisenji wrote: > So I ask this, how much magic is actually in a > person deemed a squib? > What can they feel things differently than a wizard > or witch? Take > Filch for instance? What the heck is he doing at > hogwarts when > obviously to us, a wizard of er...lesser talents > could also do the job > too but use magic to speed up cleaning accidents. It is interesting that both Filch and Mrs. Figg seem to communicate at some level with their cats - remember that Mrs. Figg had Tibbles (or whatever his name was - I can't be bothered trudge up 2 flights of stairs to look it up) watching Mundungus who was supposed to be watching Harry, because she suspected that Mundungus might slope off to do some shady deal or other. It was the cat who alerted her that Harry was no longer being guarded. And we all know that everyone considers Mrs. Norris a spy for Filch. Adding that to the fact that Mrs. Figg can see the dementors, and it seems likely that squibs do have a certain level of magical ability - just not sufficient to be considered a witch or wizard. ===== JES Canada __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:28:37 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:28:37 -0000 Subject: What's the point of Houses? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75669 greatlit2003: >I understand that the students need to be placed in groups for the sake of organization, but why does that organization (i.e. Sorting) depend on their personality? Why can't the Hat just randomly select students for each House? A lot of bad will seems to crop up at Hogwarts in large part to the House system. Any thoughts? > Mandy > It's pure British tradition and a very old fashioned one that still exists at many schools today. Being British and having went through a girls school that has Houses, I can explain that its used to create loyalty, to encourage strong fraternity/sorority, promote competition. As well as stimulating segregation and the need to socialize 'only' with ones peers. > me(bibphile) Yes, but I think greatlit's question was "why are they sorted by personality?". Short answer: Because that's what the founders did. It sounds like originally the houses didn't have classes together. Each founder thought his or her own house. It seems like it was basically four schools in one building. I agree that the current sorting system does more harm that good. The "do anything to win" atmosphere that we see in Slytherin house would encourage cheating (at quidditch and in life) even in the students that would be uncomfortable with it. By the same token, the atmosphere in Gryffindorhouse would encourage reckless and rash behavior. If they were sorted randomly, it wouldn't be a problem. I do think the houses will be abolished eventually though. I have nothing to base that on though except the Sorting Hat thinking sorting was a bad idea. bibphile From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 19:29:54 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:29:54 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "that space cadet glow" wrote: > My theory on why Sirius had to die has to do with the fact that for > the first time, we really see Harry screw up and fail. It's because > of Harry's actions (as well as DD's) that Sirius wound up being in > the DoM and getting killed at all. We saw Harry fall into a trap Now me: I agree that your theory makes a lot of sense as far as the reason why "someone" had to die, but I think there were other people besides Sirius who could have died because of a mistake of Harry's just as easily. For example, JKR could have killed off any of the students who went along with Harry without changing any of the plot and the impact of Harry's screwing up leading to the death would have been the same. I am trying to decide if there are specific reasons that it was Sirius, as opposed to someone else. Maybe there isn't a real reason, other than an emotional loss for Harry. I have been reading the "second guessing JKR" thread and a lot of it makes sense to me - certain things are in the story just to move the plot along generally, not because they have some big, symbolic significance. Mhershey From harrypotterfanatic2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 16:41:31 2003 From: harrypotterfanatic2000 at yahoo.com (harrypotterfanatic2000) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 16:41:31 -0000 Subject: Coming Of Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Atherton" > 16 - legal to: get a National Insurance card, and therefore get a job better than a paper round > : be in a pub and order a soft drink > : be in a pub and drink an alcoholic drink with a meal if someone over 18 buys it for you. > : have sexual intercourse (heterosexual) > : buy cigarettes 16 is legal for sex in the UK? Isn't it 17 in the US? JKR has said that her characters would be 'growing up' realistically. So would this mean that technically, in Book 6 (assuming that they are dating), Krum (19) can sleep with Hermione (16) without social stigma or legal statutory rape?? Maybe it's the legalistic, "16 is too young" mentality in me, but that strikes me as wrong...I mean, 16 is too young to drive, but old enough for sex with a 20, 30 year old? I guess the legislators in Britain have set this age for a reason, but would this be crossing the line for Harry Potter?? From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:32:09 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:32:09 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: > In the weeks leading up to the release of OoP, after JKR revealed > that a major character died, there was a lot of speculation about who it would be, and if I remember correctly, Sirius was not high on > anyone's list. Now that we know it was him, and now that we have had about six weeks to analyze every single word/theme/hint/prediction in > the book, I am wondering what people's theories are about why, in the name of the plot, Sirius had to die. There are a lot of possibilities, some obvious, and some less so. For example, > 1. To give Harry another loss of a parent figure, in order to > encourage some sort of internal emotional growth necessary for his > development into a person capable of killing LV. (but you may argue that any of a number of other people could have died instead) > 2. To create difficulties for the OoP along the lines mentioned in the thread "inheritance" regarding who gets GP, how to deal with > Kreacher's knowledge, etc. (this seems to me to be the most pure > theory for "why sirius" and not someone else) 3. To create a reason for Harry to travel "beyond the veil" to > gain some understanding he needs to defeat LV. > > Any other ideas? > > Mhershey Sof: Part of this is answered by Dumbledore who explains that Sirius is the person Harry would have gone the farthest for. Now we know Harry will go out of his way for almost anyone. But in OotP he chooses to leave the safety of the school grounds in order to rescue someone. In regard to the plotting, it boils down to the public confirmation of Voldemort's return. The entire novel, Harry is struggling with people refusing to believe it and the hampered attempts to mount a counteroffensive. The Order is trying but they're only a few people, and they keep the kids largely in the dark about their machinations. Sirius' death is sufficiently devastating to Harry so that he is driven almost over the edge. Harry is so furious that he pursues Bellatrix Lestrange out of vengeance. If not for the confrontation in the Ministry lobby, Voldemort would not have been detained long enough to be sighted by Ministry Officials. Not only does Harry pursue Bellatrix, he actually utters an Unforgivable Curse. I think this is another critical issue to the overall story. In PoA, Harry raises his wand to kill Sirius Black, but he can't follow through on it. It seems quite telling that he should now find himself able to utter a curse. Not only because it's heinous and pretty near the point of no return, but also because it is illegal. Throughout PoA, Harry is heavily concerned with the law. >From the moment he blows up Aunt Marge and decides to go on the run from the Ministry, considering the worst possible punishments that could come his way, we know that laws are a whole different thing to Harry from school rules. Those two things - revealing Voldemort and thereby setting the Second War in motion, and pushing Harry to the precipice between good and evil - seem like the critical reasons for killing off Sirius. From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:32:43 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:32:43 -0000 Subject: Pure Blood Parentage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clarinut76" wrote: > How long are you a half-blood? I mean, if James was born from two wizards, he'd be a pure blood (we've never heard mention anything different) and Lilly seems to come from a muggle family (lots of debate on this, I'm sure...). Harry is considered a half-blood for this reason, but since he's born of a wizard and a witch, couldn't he be thought of as a pure blood? Is the muggle blood thing always there? > I think most wizard would consider Harry and his decendents half- blood for four or five generations at least. The snobby ones would consider them half-bloods forever. They probably think that if you have any tracable muggle-heritage at all, you're half-blood. Of course, many wizards don't seem to care about blood lines much. You're either a wizard or a muggle. bibphile From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 17:07:59 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:07:59 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030804173319.00ac8928@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, music4masses wrote: > At 05:11 PM 8/4/2003, you wrote: > I don't recall Voldemort's name being on the prophecy bell jar, so why > would he try to get it himself? He's only mentioned, and so is part, of the > prophecy itself. It's not his, though, it's Harry's. Only Harry could pick > up the jar, as his was the only name on it. Voldemort would have to lure > him there. It seems that if he tried himself, even possessing Nagani, he'd > go mad as well. We know he knew that by this point. Interesting that it was > Neville who didn't want Harry to pick it up. It explains why Lucius Malfoy > said something like "That's good Potter. Now give it to me" or whatever his > exact words were. It never seemed necessary for LV to be there. He could > keep low. This is how I understood it, anyway. > Erin Erin Did you notice that they ONLY other person who actually touched the prophecy was in fact Neville ? In the fight scene (p.709, UK edition), it says ' Harry flung the prophecy across the floor, Neville span himself around on his back and scooped the ball to his chest'... Granted, Harry was the one to lift it off the shelf, but I wonder if it was significant that Neville got to hold it, (and in fact was the cause of it being smashed), or whether anyone can hold them once they have been picked up by their rightful owner ? Malfoy obviously did feel it could be handed to him safely, but, given the many possible interpretations of the prophecy, it is curious that it was Neville, and not Ron or anyone else involved in the destruction. Just a thought... CW CW From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 18:45:17 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Trust_(was:_Re:_Severus_snape?s_possible_ethnic_background) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030806184517.37638.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75675 "bibphile" wrote: > > The only > > people I can think of that we've seen distrust > Snape are Hermione > > (PS only), Ron, Sirius, and Harry. Harry is the > only one of those > > eho knows Snape used to be a Death Eater (I think) > Buttercup: I'm positive that Harry knows Snape was a Death Eater. I think the only reason he asked Snape, during Occlumency, why he called Voldemort the Dark Lord when only Death Eaters do was because he just wanted to see what Snape would say. Plus I think Harry was angry with Snape and wanted to get under his skin. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:40:23 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:40:23 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Trust=5F(was:=5FRe:=5FSeverus=5Fsnape=B4s=5Fpossible=5Fethnic=5Fbackground)?= In-Reply-To: <20030806184517.37638.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75676 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > "bibphile" wrote: > > > > The only > > > people I can think of that we've seen distrust > > Snape are Hermione > > > (PS only), Ron, Sirius, and Harry. Harry is the > > only one of those > > > eho knows Snape used to be a Death Eater (I think) > > > > Buttercup: > > I'm positive that Harry knows Snape was a Death Eater. > I think the only reason he asked Snape, during > Occlumency, why he called Voldemort the Dark Lord when > only Death Eaters do was because he just wanted to see > what Snape would say. Plus I think Harry was angry > with Snape and wanted to get under his skin. > > ===== > Buttercup > I wasn't saying I thought Harry knew. I was sayinh I thought Harry was the only one of the four that knew. I was only thinking about the Pensieve and Forgot about when Snape showed his forearm to Fudge. My point still stands though. They distrusted Snape before they knew he used to be a Death Eater and not because of it. bibphile From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:40:46 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:40:46 -0000 Subject: Pure Blood Parentage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "clarinut76" > wrote: > > How long are you a half-blood? I mean, if James was born from two > wizards, he'd be a pure blood (we've never heard mention anything > different) and Lilly seems to come from a muggle family (lots of > debate on this, I'm sure...). Harry is considered a half-blood for > this reason, but since he's born of a wizard and a witch, couldn't > he be thought of as a pure blood? Is the muggle blood thing always > there? > > > > I think most wizard would consider Harry and his decendents half- > blood for four or five generations at least. The snobby ones would > consider them half-bloods forever. They probably think that if you > have any tracable muggle-heritage at all, you're half-blood. > > Of course, many wizards don't seem to care about blood lines much. > You're either a wizard or a muggle. > > bibphile Somthing that goes along with this thread is that in CoS Justin Flinch states that he has been a pure bllod for 9 generations (this is when there are attacks on the mudbloods and they think harry is doing it). Does this mean after a certain amount of time his elders became pure bloods again? Garrett From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 6 19:59:24 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:59:24 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coming Of Age References: Message-ID: <004501c35c55$3dbbcfc0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 75678 From: harrypotterfanatic2000 To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <>16 is legal for sex in the UK? Isn't it 17 in the US? JKR has said that her characters would be 'growing up' realistically. So would this mean that technically, in Book 6 (assuming that they are dating), Krum (19) can sleep with Hermione (16) without social stigma or legal statutory rape?? Maybe it's the legalistic, "16 is too young" mentality in me, but that strikes me as wrong...I mean, 16 is too young to drive, but old enough for sex with a 20, 30 year old? I guess the legislators in Britain have set this age for a reason, but would this be crossing the line for Harry Potter?? ------------ In the 1860 - 80's, the age of consent for girls in Britain was 13 years. It was later raised to 16 years, which in the case of the WW longevity would be the the equivalent of 'when my grandad was a lad....' - ie not that long ago. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tharqueen at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 17:25:25 2003 From: tharqueen at hotmail.com (Nisha) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:25:25 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75679 > > Mali: > > Opinion of a french speaking person who studied latin in college: > > > > For Lori, in latin, love is "amor"... > > > > And for holly phoenix, in French, vol de mort means "flight of > death" > > or "theft of death"... I don't understand the "sudden hit of death" > > thing... > > > > Hope it helps! > > > > Mali > > Geoff: > It can also mean "wing of death" which I find more descriptive.... > Maybe association with the angel of death? Me: I always thought the "flight of death" could actually be "flight FROM death" since that is the one thing Voldemort fears most. If there's one thing he's worked towards, it is preventing his own death. But, as Dumbeldore says: "There are things worse than death". It will be interesting to see how it plays out. Nisha From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 6 11:50:29 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:50:29 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the scorcerers stone References: Message-ID: <3F30EB85.000001.41221@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 75680 bboy_mn: The key to your statement is 'as far as we know'. The Philosopher's Stone is known across Europe, Arabia, and Asian according to the documented history of the Philosopher's Stone. Me - And is seen as a sort of Holy Grail for alchemists - as in *they don't find it*. Flamel is the only one who is even considered to have had any success. I wonder how he described it in the wizarding world? Because in real life he had a dream where he was told someone would offer him a book that would tell him how to find it and did indeed (apparently) receive a book in a language that he devoted most of his life to translating. The only actual evidence we have that he may have succeeded in his quest is because apparently when they dug up his grave later his body was missing. bboy_mn: We must remember that JKR didn't invent the Stone, it has it's own history dating back many hundreds of years. When JKR brings in existing myth and mythology, she is usually pretty true to the legend. Me - Yet she also twists them to her own ends. You are talking about how Master Alchemists in general behave and presenting it as the one absolute truth and I am pointing out that in this particular work of fiction we have never *met* a master alchemist so we have no idea how they might think. bboy_mn: Also, the text the Hermione reads refers to Flamel as having the only Stone in existance; but I can't read that as absolute. It has to be interpreted as the only Stone known by the wizard world to exist. Me - You cannot base a theory on hypothetical people who might have done something contradictory to waht we have been told in the books, present it as total and absolute truth and not expect people to start shooting holes in it. Try using the phrases 'it is possible that', 'I think', 'perhaps' and in my opinion' a little more. bboy_mn: If you were knowledgable in the legends of alchemy and the Stone, then you would know that the Stone and it's pursuit are a religious persuit. You can never gain the wisdom necessary to create the stone unless you have reach the necessary level of spiritual enlightenment. Regarding Nicholas Flamel, his knowledge and insight into the creation of the stone came out of ancient Jewish tradition. Me - Actually I am fairly knowledgeable on Nicholas Flamel and the Stone but we have no idea how true to the history JKR has been. For all we know her Flamel could have no concept of spiritual enlightenment at all and be doing this from purely selfish reasons. Now he's probably a little more reasonable that that to have agreed to let the Stone be destroyed - but we only actually have Dumbledore's word that he was reasonable and able to be persuaded. Being the devious sort of person Dumbledore seems to be it's possible he told Flamel the Stone *had* been destroyed, fairly safe in the knowledge that the only person other than Voldemort who couold tell him different based on actual evidence rather than gossip was Harry himself, who is so watched and protected that he's unlikely to meet anyone Dumbledore doesn't want him to. K From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 17:37:31 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:37:31 -0000 Subject: Dudley a wizard? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75681 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Luck" > wrote: > > Supose Dudley turns out to be a wizard, how do you think Vernon > and > > Petunia is going to react to that? > > Me: [Claire ] > I personally think Dudley is well named--he's a "dud" at pretty much > everything except bullying (which is why he's so good at boxing). > I doubt very much he's going to be a wizard. Having said that, > though, JKR rather delights in turning ones theories upside down. > However, I would hope he wouldn't; it does give a leg up, finally, > to Harry in their relationship. CW: I agree that Dudley is unlikely to be a wizard, but I did think he had a point in the opening scenes in OoP, when he says to Harry 'Think you're a big man carrying that thing, don't you ?', referring to Harry's wand and its powers. In a way, Harry's magical abilities give him the same unfair advantages over Duds, that Dud has over the poor terrified kids he beats up. There seems to be something unresolved here about how Harry should act in the Muggle world. Probably he should learn not to rely on magic, but aim for the kind of personal authority that Lupin has, which is unconnected with his magic skills, but more dependent on personality. As a typical teenager, Harry is quite a long way from understanding this as an option, and I thought JKR was very effective in showing that really, a wand was just another sort of gun, in the context of holding a threat over Dudley. Obviously, Harry goes on to use it to save Duds life, but he would otherwise really like to use it to hex him into eternity.. not a solution, as countless conflicts worldwide have proved. From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 20:08:45 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:08:45 -0000 Subject: Coming Of Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75682 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harrypotterfanatic2000" wrote: > 16 is legal for sex in the UK? Isn't it 17 in the US? > JKR has said that her characters would be 'growing up' realistically. > > So would this mean that technically, in Book 6 (assuming that they > are dating), Krum (19) can sleep with Hermione (16) without social > stigma or legal statutory rape?? > > Maybe it's the legalistic, "16 is too young" mentality in me, but > that strikes me as wrong...I mean, 16 is too young to drive, but old > enough for sex with a 20, 30 year old? > > I guess the legislators in Britain have set this age for a reason, but > would this be crossing the line for Harry Potter?? I doubt we'll know whose having sex in HP, as long as it isn't Harry. I also doubt Hermione's relationship with Krum will get that serious. Is the age 16 reasonable? That's a matter of opinion. As far as the age difference goes though, JKR doesn't seem to have a problem with it. Bill is at least 26 and Fleur is 18. They seem to be dating (though we don't know if they're having sex). bibphile From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 20:11:17 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:11:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] GoF Mysteries References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75683 Tallulah: 1) when Hermione states when talking about the judges for the Triwizard Tournament.. "Well the heads of the schools are always on the panel"...."because all three of them were injured during the tournament of 1792" So...does this mean the heads of the schools at any time the tornament is on are on the panel or does it mean Dumbledore,Karkaroff and Maxime are always on the panel? Dan: It means that the heads of the schools, whoever they are at the time, serve on the panel during the Tournament. Dumbledore is about 150 years old, and was not even alive in 1792, nor the head of Hogwarts. Tallulah: 2) Why does Moody (a.k.a crouch) teach them the unforgivable curses? why does he make sure Harry can fight off the imperious curse? Surely this is a hinderance to LV? Dan: This bugs me, too. Perhaps Crouch was trying to scare the students with the power of the Death Eaters, so that when Voldemort did rise, the students would know what was coming for them. Tallulah: 3) How did the Riddles die? it says they looked shocked-did they die from looking at the basilik? or is Nagini not a basilik?Im confused!! Dan: The basilisk lived in Hogwarts, and I doubt Riddle would take it back to Riddle Manor from the depths of the school. Remember that an adult basilisk is extremely large... Riddle killed his father/grandparents with the Killing Curse, not a basilisk, which is much, much larger that Nagini. Nagini, I believe, is just a biggish snake with venom that prevents blood from clotting and stopping up wounds. Remember that the parents had no marks on their body and just dropped dead. Yes, Voldemort seems rather fond of Avada Kedavra. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Aug 6 20:17:08 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:17:08 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > > Tallulah: > 2) Why does Moody (a.k.a crouch) teach them the unforgivable curses? > why does he make sure Harry can fight off the imperious curse? > Surely this is a hinderance to LV? > > Dan: > This bugs me, too. Perhaps Crouch was trying to scare the students with the power of the Death Eaters, so that when Voldemort did rise, the students would know what was coming for them. > My guess: The real Moody planned to show the Unforgivables in his class and told Dumbledore. Now the impostor has to teach the same stuff as the real Moody, because otherwise it would be to suspicious. Hickengruendler From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 20:23:31 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:23:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Mysteries References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75685 Hickengruendler The real Moody planned to show the Unforgivables in his class and told Dumbledore. Now the impostor has to teach the same stuff as the real Moody, because otherwise it would be to suspicious. Dan Yeah, that would make more sense. I suspect that if Dumbledore hadn't known and approved of the teaching plan, he'd have gone through the roof and thrown Crouch!Moody out. It would make sense for Dumbledore to have approved, and even asked Moody to perform Imperius on the students. It's not lethal, it's not painful. But it's something Dumbledore knew might be used on the students one day, and something they needed to know how to fight. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 20:23:58 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:23:58 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > > > > Tallulah: > > 2) Why does Moody (a.k.a crouch) teach them the unforgivable > curses? > > why does he make sure Harry can fight off the imperious curse? > > Surely this is a hinderance to LV? > > Mhershey: Or perhaps, Moody was testing Harry's strength, to see how powerful he actually was, so he could report back to LV. From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 6 20:26:21 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:26:21 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Coming Of Age References: Message-ID: <3F31646D.000001.46665@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 75687 harrypotterfanatic2000 wrote 16 is legal for sex in the UK? Isn't it 17 in the US? JKR has said that her characters would be 'growing up' realistically. So would this mean that technically, in Book 6 (assuming that they are dating), Krum (19) can sleep with Hermione (16) without social stigma or legal statutory rape?? Maybe it's the legalistic, "16 is too young" mentality in me, but that strikes me as wrong...I mean, 16 is too young to drive, but old enough for sex with a 20, 30 year old? I guess the legislators in Britain have set this age for a reason, but would this be crossing the line for Harry Potter?? Me - I agree with whoever it was wh said we probably won't be givien any actual idea if anyone is sleeping with anyone else in HP - but since you can leave school, gt a job and get married at 16, it doesn't seem too young really to be having sex. Specifically the 'get married' part of that statement. However I imagine a lot of people would feel slightly creeped out by a 20 year old or older sleeping with a schoolgirl, whereas it wouldn't be seen as too odd for her to be sleeping with someone the same age. Which isn't to say I think Hermione would be sleeping around - she strikes me as the type who would want to be fairly certain the relationship was going somewhere before she did anything. Personally I like the Dutch idea that you can have sex at a younger age but there is a limit to how much older your partner could be - wouldn't stop the Hermione/Viktor thing tho, but then my probs with that aren't really the age gap so much as the fact that you grow up a *lot* in those few years - but then boys do usually mature slower than girls. I know it wasn't exatly unusual for the top year boys at my school (17-18) to be dating girls 2 or 3 years younger. Obviously I don't know how many were having sex but since we have quite a high teenage pregnanc rate in this country it would seem likely that some of them were. K From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 17:45:00 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:45:00 -0000 Subject: Why Couldn't LV get the prophesy for himself? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: >how did Voldemort get through all of the MoM's security? For the head of the British Wizarding World, I'd think they'd have some hefty magic protecting it, but it seems not. Unless Voldemort broke through them already. > > I'm not sure what kind of trap Dumbledore could've laid, anyways. Voldemort seems good at breaking through magical seals, even as a tumor (SS, the Gringotts Vault escapade). > -Dan CW: Perhaps Lucius Malfoy had got the details out of Fudge, and was able to tell Voldemort how to break in safely ? Fudge would seem stupid enough to tell Malfoy, especially if put under the imperius curse temporarily on one of Malfoy's bribery visits. From tharqueen at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 17:48:39 2003 From: tharqueen at hotmail.com (Nisha) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:48:39 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75689 > > But what if Voldemort still believes Snape is loyal to him? The > whole Occlumency thing...Voldemort knows when someone is lying > to him because he is a Legilimens. But if Snape is skilled at > occlumency, he would be able to prevent Voldemort from entering his mind and > knowing that he's lying. So it's possible that Voldemort still thinks he's > loyal. The big question is what makes DD so sure Snape is on > his side? Can't wait to find out. > > I have a feeling that in the next two books > > we're going to see some really interesting things from Snape > and I'm very > > much looking forward to it. > > Me too! > > Regina S. Me: Me three! I think of Snape sort of as a double agent. He's providing enough information to both sides though I hope he's more on Dumbledore's side. Snape seems to have some sort of close connection with Lucius Malfoy which suggests he is still playing on that side too. So, perhaps Voldemort does still think of him as loyal to him since Snape is secretly providing just enough info to them. I think we have yet to see if he is completely redeemed or not. Wll his intense hatred for James lead him to betray Harry? Or will he continue to support Harry regardless of his feelings like he has thus far? What is the reason for his support of Dumbledore and Harry? Aaargh! Too many questions! Nisha From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 20:35:23 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:35:23 -0000 Subject: Coming Of Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75690 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "harrypotterfanatic2000" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Atherton" > > 16 - legal to: get a National Insurance card, and therefore get a > job better than a paper round > > : be in a pub and order a soft drink > > : be in a pub and drink an alcoholic drink with a meal if someone over 18 buys it for you. > > : have sexual intercourse (heterosexual) > > : buy cigarettes > 16 is legal for sex in the UK? Isn't it 17 in the US? > JKR has said that her characters would be 'growing up' realistically.sex with a 20, 30 year old? > > I guess the legislators in Britain have set this age for a reason, but would this be crossing the line for Harry Potter?? Talisman, responds, in her very, very friendliest voice: As long as I have my Northrup Frye out, may I quote him as saying: "A reader who quarrels with postulates, who dislikes Hamlet because he does not believe that there are ghosts or that people speak in pentameters, clearly has no business in literature." One sense of this is to say that attempting to graph one-to-one correspondences with banalities does violence to art. Having said that, JK has spoken to her notion of propriety, and I don't think we'll see Harry, or any of his little friends, puffing a post-coital cig. If knowing that is important to you. Talisman, who doesn't think we'll ever know what kind of insurance is accepted at St. Mungos. From C_fax at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 18:30:57 2003 From: C_fax at hotmail.com (ceefax2002) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:30:57 -0000 Subject: Squibs-genetics gone wrong or (more & long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75691 > So I ask this, how much magic is actually in a person deemed a squib? > What can they feel things differently than a wizard or witch? Take > Filch for instance? What the heck is he doing at hogwarts when > obviously to us, a wizard of er...lesser talents could also do the job > too but use magic to speed up cleaning accidents. > > I dunno what do y'all think? > > Kai I think Hogwarts could very well get in trouble with the equal opportunities commission (or wizarding equivalent) if they tried to sack him (or it could be proved that they wouldn't employ him) solely on those grounds. How much magical talent do you really need to slop some Mrs. Skower's around and wave manacles threateningly at children? However, law in the ww being what it is, it's more likely he's another of Dumbledore's charity cases. He gave Hagrid, Lupin and Snape jobs when, as a half-giant, a werewolf and an ex-death eater, they would probably (definitely in Lupin's case) have trouble finding jobs. Dumbledore's something of a humanitarian - maybe he just wanted to help Filch, without any ulterior motives (there's a voice at the back of my head, which sounds suspiciously like Alan Rickman going 'hah!' at the moment. I'm ignoring it). Or maybe (like some of the other, er, unsavoury characters he's been known to associate with) Dumbledore keeps him around because he's useful in some way. Or could it just be that he was the best applicant? You shouldn't assume someone's not good at what they do just because of a minor afflication that they can't help, cos that's just bigotry. Ceefax, your local SPERMD representative (the Society for the Protection and Education of the Rather Magically Disadvantaged From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 18:39:15 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 11:39:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry in Potions NEWT In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030806183915.59922.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75692 Lee wrote: > > I have to remind everyone, who says that Neville, > and Harry, and > > Ron, and some-such, are failing potions, that... > > > > They are NOT failing potions! > > > > What they ARE doing is getting below average > marks. They're getting > > the typical *just enough to pass* or in Harry's > case *average* > marks. > > ***snip*** > > Oh, btw, am I the only one who thinks Harry is > going on to Potions > > NEWT level? Think about it... ;) Buttercup: Nope! I agree. Harry's going to be in Potions NEWT level. With Snape's absense he felt more relaxed and thought he "might not have achieved a good grade but that he had, with luck, avoided a fail." I know Snape said that he only accepts "O's," but I don't think he'll be teaching Potions in Book 6. A new Potions teacher with lower standards would accept Harry into the NEWT. I believe Snape'll be teaching DADA. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:10:58 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:10:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030806191058.79456.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75693 --- mhershey2001wrote: I am wondering what people's theories are > about why, in the > name of the plot, Sirius had to die. There are a > lot of > possibilities, some obvious, and some less so. For > example, > 1. To give Harry another loss of a parent figure, > in order to > encourage some sort of internal emotional growth > necessary for his > development into a person capable of killing LV. > (but you may argue > that any of a number of other people could have died > instead) > 2. To create difficulties for the OoP along the > lines mentioned in > the thread "inheritance" regarding who gets GP, how > to deal with > Kreacher's knowledge, etc. (this seems to me to be > the most pure > theory for "why sirius" and not someone else) > 3. To create a reason for Harry to travel "beyond > the veil" to > gain some understanding he needs to defeat LV. > > Any other ideas? Buttercup: Those are good reasons. I'd like to add that I think Sirius served his purpose in the plot. He wasn't very much useful anymore. Because he was in hiding he couldn't do much for the Order. If he remained all his scenes would have to be at Grimmauld Place where he was confined. You mentioned "internal emotional growth" for Harry, and I agree. Harry's got to go through the worse things possible, be in the lowest valley, in order for his flourishment into manhood and his achievements to have real meaning. Besides Ron's or Hermione's deaths, Sirius' would be the hardest on him. If he's (hopefully) the victor at the end of Book 7, despite his hardships, it'll make the final climax more satisfying. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Wed Aug 6 20:41:32 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:41:32 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75694 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nisha" wrote: > > > > But what if Voldemort still believes Snape is loyal to him? The > > whole Occlumency thing...Voldemort knows when someone is lying > > to him because he is a Legilimens. But if Snape is skilled at > > occlumency, he would be able to prevent Voldemort from entering his mind and > > knowing that he's lying. So it's possible that Voldemort still thinks he's > > loyal. The big question is what makes DD so sure Snape is on > > his side? Can't wait to find out. > > > > I have a feeling that in the next two books > > > we're going to see some really interesting things from Snape > > and I'm very > > > much looking forward to it. > > > > Me too! > > > > Regina S. Me: I think Snape is sufficiently loyal to DD that you do not have to worry that he might betray Harry. I believe his redemption will be in his courage to fight for the Order and take big risks. He may have to or already had to go deep undercover. He's never going to like Harry so he will never look to the DE's like a Harry sympathizer. He is, now that we have lost Sirius, the most interesting and complex character we may yet see. Jennifer > > Me: > > Me three! > I think of Snape sort of as a double agent. He's providing enough > information to both sides though I hope he's more on > Dumbledore's side. Snape seems to have some sort of close > connection with Lucius Malfoy which suggests he is still playing > on that side too. So, perhaps Voldemort does still think of him as > loyal to him since Snape is secretly providing just enough info to > them. > I think we have yet to see if he is completely redeemed or not. Wll > his intense hatred for James lead him to betray Harry? Or will he > continue to support Harry regardless of his feelings like he has > thus far? What is the reason for his support of Dumbledore and > Harry? > Aaargh! Too many questions! > > Nisha From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Wed Aug 6 20:47:05 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:47:05 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho (why should it?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: Answer this... What team does Cho support? me: The Tutshill Tornados - since she was six. evangelina (can't help butting into the conversation) From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Aug 6 20:47:53 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:47:53 EDT Subject: Answered Questions / What We know and Harry Doesn't Message-ID: <1c8.d8f2139.2c62c379@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75696 Ok...I was going to go through the whole book (OOP) before I posted this, but I'm insanely bored...so...here goes. Question 1: (pg. 364 US ed) "Do you have any idea why Dumbledore has consistently refused to appoint you?" Asked Umbridge (to Snape about the DADA post) Question 2: (pg 593 US ed) "Can you tell me something, sir?" said Harry, firing up again. "Why do you call Voldemort the Dark Lord, I've only ever heard Death Eaters call him that- " Question 3: (pg. 784) "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry recklessly. "Voldemort? Yeah, his mother was witch but his dad was a Muggle...or has he been tell you lot he's pureblood?" I'm also sure there's another one...though I can't seem to find the quote, in which Harry basically asks (after Umbridge looks at/touches him or something and his scar hurts) (Umbridge: It hurts, doesn't it? ) Harry: Did she mean his scar or his hand? There might be others...but so far those are the only 'Questions asked in the books that haven't been answered yet' that I can come up with. Any thoughts or additions? Now...to the second part. I've been wondering for the past couple of hours about something. If Harry was placed under a Memory charm would that part of the story be skipped over...or he go through it and then forget it? (like some of the dreams he's had) ??? ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 20:49:37 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:49:37 -0000 Subject: SYM: <>< and a bit of DENIAL In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75697 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "terryljames76" wrote: > The <>< in the title line is a fish, and is intended to warn the > reader that Christian ideas--or at least my interpretation of > Christian ideas--are referred to herein. > > The > only thing he can do is the only thing, in the end, that we can all > do--try to make the right choices, and do the right thing, and stand > up for what is right and what is good. > > Terry Geoff: As a practising Christian, it has been interesting to read in other sites the differing views of Christians on HP; I find myself disagreeing with friends who say that the books are totally wrong and want to stop people having access to them. One argument which is advanced is the statement made by Dumbledore in PS the "death is the next great adventure" and some folk seem to have latched on to this being reincarnation. I cannot see this and consider this comment to be in tune with the Christian hope of life after death. Coming to your comments above, I have always felt that much of the philosophy of HP can be summed up in Dumbledore's comments in COS: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities". This, in real life, is the crus of Chritian faith and, in HP, it is perhaps the lynchpin of Harry's. From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Aug 6 20:59:04 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:59:04 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pure Blood Parentage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308062259.04075.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75698 > How long are you a half-blood? > > bibphile: > > I think most wizard would consider Harry and his decendents half- > > blood for four or five generations at least. The snobby ones would > > consider them half-bloods forever. They probably think that if you > > have any tracable muggle-heritage at all, you're half-blood. > Garrett > Somthing that goes along with this thread is that in CoS Justin Flinch > states that he has been a pure bllod for 9 generations > Does this mean after a certain amount of time his elders became pure > bloods again? In Dark Ages, Medieval Spain suffered a 'blood cleaning' process. No Jews or Arabian folk. The rule was if you could prove your four grandparents were clean, your blood was clean. Of course, many people had to fake their ascendency. I'm sure if you had a great enemy, 3 generations wasn't enough, but it was the common rule. Or if you were rich enough, you just could buy it. My father's family (a tale is told to every generation) donated a chapel during the building of Toledo's Cathedral to avoid leaving the country. Zap! Instant transformation from Jew to good old Christian blood (if this isn't the Philosopher's Stone transforming gold in blood...). silmariel From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 21:00:09 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:00:09 -0000 Subject: Answered Questions / What We know and Harry Doesn't In-Reply-To: <1c8.d8f2139.2c62c379@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > Ok...I was going to go through the whole book (OOP) before I posted this, but > I'm insanely bored...so...here goes. > > Question 1: (pg. 364 US ed) > > "Do you have any idea why Dumbledore has consistently refused to appoint > you?" Asked Umbridge (to Snape about the DADA post) > > Question 2: (pg 593 US ed) > > "Can you tell me something, sir?" said Harry, firing up again. "Why do you > call Voldemort the Dark Lord, I've only ever heard Death Eaters call him that- " > > > Question 3: (pg. 784) > > "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry recklessly. > "Voldemort? Yeah, his mother was witch but his dad was a Muggle...or has he been tell > you lot he's pureblood?" > > I'm also sure there's another one...though I can't seem to find the quote, in > which Harry basically asks (after Umbridge looks at/touches him or something > and his scar hurts) > > (Umbridge: It hurts, doesn't it? ) > > Harry: Did she mean his scar or his hand? > > > There might be others...but so far those are the only 'Questions asked in the > books that haven't been answered yet' that I can come up with. Any thoughts > or additions? > > Now...to the second part. I've been wondering for the past couple of hours > about something. If Harry was placed under a Memory charm would that part of > the story be skipped over...or he go through it and then forget it? (like some > of the dreams he's had) > > ??? > > ~Cassie~ > > Me: Is Umvridge a voldy supporter? "Who do you imagine wants to attack children like yoorselves? inquered Professor Umbridge in a horrible honeyed voice. "hmm...lets think?" said Harry in a mock thoughtful voice Lord Voldermort!" Ron gaped lavender brown uttered a little scream Neville sliped sideway off his stoll. Proffesor Umbrige, however, did not flinch. She was staring at Harry with a grimly satidfied expression on her face. what do y'all think Garrett (who will forever be a texan) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 21:05:32 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:05:32 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Hickengruendler > The real Moody planned to show the Unforgivables in his class and > told Dumbledore. Now the impostor has to teach the same stuff as the > real Moody, because otherwise it would be to suspicious. > > Dan > Yeah, that would make more sense. I suspect that if Dumbledore hadn't known and approved of the teaching plan, he'd have gone through the roof and thrown Crouch!Moody out. It would make sense for Dumbledore to have approved, and even asked Moody to perform Imperius on the students. It's not lethal, it's not painful. But it's something Dumbledore knew might be used on the students one day, and something they needed to know how to fight. > -Dan > Geoff: "I'm not supposed to show you what illegal Dark curses look like until you're in the sixth year. But Professor Dumbledore's got a higher opinion of your nerves, he reckons you can cope....." This is "Moody" talking to the group (GOF p.187 "The unforgiveable curses") So, it would seem that dealing with UCs was part of the curriculum. This was also part of "Moody's" cover: "It hasn't been easy, Harry, guiding you through these tasks without arousing suspicion. I have had to use every ounce of cunning I possess, so that my hand would not be detectable in your success." (GOF p.587 "Veritaserum") From laura_momiji at tin.it Wed Aug 6 21:23:40 2003 From: laura_momiji at tin.it (Momiji) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:23:40 +0200 Subject: Snape and Voldemort In-Reply-To: <1060186517.13959.46332.m15@yahoogroups.com> References: <1060186517.13959.46332.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75701 I'm usually a lurker in this ML and maybe I've missed an old post about this argoument... (I'm sorry ^^;;) But Voldemort didn't know about Snape (and his loyalty for DD) from Quirrel in PS? This thing is against all spy and double game theories .... :-/ I'm sorry for my English Ciao to all!!! Laura74 from Italy -- "It would be quite nice if you stopped jumping down our throats, Harry, because in case you haven't noticed, Ron and I are on your side!" Hermione from -Harry Potter and The Order of Phoenix.- Laura "Momiji" Angeli Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75702 Arioth: > I do however have a friend that insists on pronouncing it like "Cyrus", which drives me fruitloops. << LOL--what a funny expression! What makes me go breakfast cereal is the slaughtering of poor "Herm -o -ninny!" "wendy" From harrypotterfanatic2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 17:18:44 2003 From: harrypotterfanatic2000 at yahoo.com (harrypotterfanatic2000) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:18:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75703 Sorry this is long, but I had to add to the defense against the *Cho haters*. I admit that Cho's relationship with harry was superficial and I doubt there is a future for them in the next books. However, I disagree with everyone saying that she is some sort of ridiculous character. Cho is a young girl whose boyfriend died a few months before, and she is obviously dealing with those issues. Harry has a slew of supporters that helped him get over the ordeal, but Cho might not have, which is why she wanted to talk to Harry about it. Harry was being insensitive. Just because Cho cries about her dead boyfriend does not make her a 'drama queen.' In fact, I found it perfectly normal behavior. As Hermione tells Harry, (and JKR through her), Cho is confused about her feelings for Harry. Cedric is always on her mind, inducing guilt. As for Cho's personality, I think JKR portrays her as a very nice, friendly person that had the sensitivity and integrity to NOT stoop down to the level of the rest of the school the several times that the popular thing was to disparage Harry. This was displayed far before she was ever interested in him romantically (i.e. GOF). The many times that I read all of the HP books, I never found anything but evidence that Cho is nothing but a sweet, nice, non-giggly girl--not to mention the fact that there must be SOMEthing special about a girl that the book's namesake is attracted to. Harry considers other females to be "pretty," but he certainly did not form romantic feelings for all of them. There is MORE to Cho than just a "ridiculous, annoying, pretty, drama queen." Furthermore, I must respond to the comment that Cho is superficial for going out with a "superificial" guy like Michael Corner. Besides the fact that there is no evidence of his superficiality, I would like to remind you that "Perfect for Harry," Ginny went out with him for almost a year and no one seems to criticize her for that. I don't think that being dissapointed that your team lost in Quidditch proves that you are anything but normal--especially for a competitive young boy. In fact, I think that Ginny was insensitive for ditching him at this low point, calling him "sulky" (No wonder he found mutual comfort in Cho--perhaps this callousness will be a common ground for G/H). P.S. I love Harry in spite of his faults; I am not a Harry/Cho shipper; and I think Harry is too good for Ginny (she was just too stupid in CoS--though slighty redeemed in OotP, still didn't do it for me). "harrypotterfanatic2000" From acoteucla at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 21:34:49 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:34:49 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75704 I think most people would agree that there is going to be a major betrayal (most likely in book 7). Assumedly it will be someone we trust enough that it will be a huge shock. I'm hoping to stimulate some discussion on who it will be. Here are my thoughts on the various suspects. Make sure to mention any likely suspects I might have missed. Ron: There is a lot of talk that Ron will betray Harry. He certainly qualifies as a major, shocking betrayal. Personally, I've seen little to no evidence that Ron is capable of such a betrayal. Due to the support for this theory, though, I'll list it as a possibility. Percy: He certainly seems like a likely candidate to betray everyone, but first he'd have to make amends with his family. Even if he does that, it wouldn't be overly surprising to find out that Percy betrays them. So he doesn't qualify as a "shocking" betrayal. I would expect the betrayer to be someone we trust, not a git like Percy. The other Weasleys: I've personally seen no evidence that any of the other Weasley's might turn spy. But speak up if you're in favor of ESE!Molly, or something like that. Lupin: My favored choice: he's sympathetic, seemingly very kind, and has Dumbledore's & Harry's trust. There's also some suspicious details about the scene at the end of book 3 which are explained if Lupin is evil. Of course, there's also some hard stuff to explain away (like, why does he prevent Harry from going through the veil?) Snape: This would certainly be a major and shocking betrayal. I personally don't buy it, but I know that ESE!Snape has it's supporters. Tonks: Wouldn't be overly shocking, given her limited screen-time. However, interpreted in a certain light, Tonks' claim to have just become an auror could clash with McGonagall's assertion that there have been no new auror's recently. Also, Tonks' metamorph ability is just begging to be used. Mundungus: Maybe he intentionally left his watch right before the Dementors came to get Harry? This betrayal wouldn't be overly shocking either, though. The other Order members: These other guys seem to be either extraordinarily unlikely (like Dumbledore or Hagrid), or too minor a character to be shocking at all. Again, speak up if you're in favor of ESE!McGonagall or something like that. Seamus: Sure, why not? Cho: This, I would love to see :-) Harry: *cough* next choice, please. The other students: Anyone in favor of ESE!Hermione or ESE!Luna? From Supermonkee90 at aol.com Wed Aug 6 18:21:44 2003 From: Supermonkee90 at aol.com (supermonkee90) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 18:21:44 -0000 Subject: Hints that Sirus would die Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75705 In the 5th book I think there were signs that Sirius would die. One of them was that Sirius lived at 12 Grimmauld Place. And Grim is the sign of death (a dog). "supermonkee90" From ishatewari at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:04:34 2003 From: ishatewari at yahoo.com (Ishani) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:04:34 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75706 Mhershey wrote: > I am wondering what people's theories are about why, in > the name of the plot, Sirius had to die. There are a lot of > possibilities, some obvious, and some less so. For example, > 1. To give Harry another loss of a parent figure, in order to > encourage some sort of internal emotional growth necessary for > his development into a person capable of killing LV. (but you > may argue that any of a number of other people could have died > instead) > 2. To create difficulties for the OoP along the lines mentioned > in the thread "inheritance" regarding who gets GP, how to deal > with Kreacher's knowledge, etc. (this seems to me to be the most > pure theory for "why Sirius" and not someone else) > 3. To create a reason for Harry to travel "beyond the veil" to > gain some understanding he needs to defeat LV. > > Any other ideas? >>> I think JKR did it simply for the sheer tragedy of it. Sirius is probably the most tragic figure we have encountered. A family outcast, Akzaban prisoner, alien from society; even his physical appearence is so tormented. He suffers even as a member of the OOP since he is stuck with Kreacher in Grimmauld Place. To top it off, he is the only person Harry has and vice-versa. For JKR to kill him was a pretty brave move because it is a completely excruciatingly painful event. The tragedy of Harry's grief at Sirius's death and the circumstances surrounding it almost made the book unreadable for me; I felt the wind had been knocked out of me. And that, my friends, is what make this series what it is. "Ishani" From lziner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:13:06 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:13:06 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75707 Mhershey wrote: > I am wondering what people's theories are about why, in > the name of the plot, Sirius had to die. There are a lot of > possibilities, some obvious, and some less so. For example, > 1. To give Harry another loss of a parent figure, in order to > encourage some sort of internal emotional growth necessary for > his development into a person capable of killing LV. (but you > may argue that any of a number of other people could have died > instead) > 2. To create difficulties for the OoP along the lines mentioned > in the thread "inheritance" regarding who gets GP, how to deal > with Kreacher's knowledge, etc. (this seems to me to be the most > pure theory for "why sirius" and not someone else) > 3. To create a reason for Harry to travel "beyond the veil" to > gain some understanding he needs to defeat LV. > > Any other ideas? >>> That's a good post :) I think Sirius had to die to further the relationship between Lupin and Harry. IMHO, Lupin is the father figure (mentor, teacher) that will best help Harry face LV. Lupin and Harry will certainly share grief over the loss of Sirius. This could provide the foundation for a more in-depth relationship. Harry has to kill LV and Lupin has to kill Peter. Well, Lupin doesn't have to kill Peter but I bet he feels obligated to do it. Neither Harry nor Lupin want to kill anyone but both are really left with no choice. This shared destiny would not exist if Sirius had not died. Just my thoughts! Lynn From lziner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:17:14 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:17:14 -0000 Subject: Remus and Tonks [SHIP] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75708 Atropos G.: > Remus and Tonks may work closely together for Harry's benefit, > but I do not foresee any cool relationship or Love here. Anna wrote: > I think the manner in which Lupin introduced Tonks to Harry had > a bit of a spark in it. I'll admit that I did not pick up on > this when I first read the book. In fact, it was only when I > listened to the audio book that I thought about it. Who knows, > maybe it was just the way Jim Dale delivered the line. (I love > his Lupin voice) > Maybe I am trying way too hard to find a love interest for Lupin. > Oh well, something to think about. >>> I wouldn't be suprised if Lupin is the married teacher JKR refers to in her interviews. She has said we would learn more about teachers and spouses - maybe Lupin was married. His wife would be so happy he got a job at Hogwarts, she may not have cared that he was gone. I mean she would be the one working. Of course, werewolves would have to be allowed to marry - are they? Since I think we will see more of Lupin in book 6, maybe we'll meet the mrs as well. If he is married, she should at least get him a new robe :) Lziner From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:20:17 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:20:17 -0000 Subject: Myrtle an Evans? (was: Is Lily Voldemort daughter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75709 Don't really know if something like this has been mentioned here. If it has, sorry for the repetition... Ok, maybe she has already served her purpose and there really is nothing more to her. But, what if there is more? A last name has not been given yet (has it?) so could Moaning Myrtle be an Evans? (Please correct me if I'm wrong and her last name has in fact been mentioned.) My crude timeline makes this possible, BUT ONLY IF Myrtle was a FIRST YEAR when she died in 1942-43. This would mean she was born in 1931. I feel that Petunia is 10 years older than Lily, so Myrtle could have been 10 or more years older than Petunia. It could hold true that the Evanses did not have another child until after the first one, Myrtle, died. Yet, this one did not receive a letter from Hogwarts. The youngest one, however, did. Could they have been so proud to have a witch in the family because the first one died? (Although, I don't know if you would be so happy as to send you child to the same school where another one died years before.) Am I making any sense? What do you all think? There are a lot of 'flower' theories out there. People are also trying to connect Myrtle to the Blacks. I thought of connecting her to the Potters (dark hair and glasses) but she was muggle-born, as was LILY. "Marci" From rvotaw at i-55.com Wed Aug 6 22:12:27 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:12:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's going to betray the Order? References: Message-ID: <003101c35c67$d2a0b440$a79ccdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75710 acoteucla wrote: > I think most people would agree that there is going to be a major > betrayal (most likely in book 7). Assumedly it will be someone we > trust enough that it will be a huge shock. I'm hoping to stimulate > some discussion on who it will be. Here are my thoughts on the > various suspects. Make sure to mention any likely suspects I might > have missed. Well, you covered most of my suspects, but I'll throw my two knuts in anyway. :) First, I certainly think there's at least one major betrayer still in the mix, as it would be entirely too dull without one. As to who it could be, well, that's another story. Ron is a possibility simply because of the constant desire for money and so on. Could be bribed, but I really doubt it. I think he'll remain loyal. I believe Seamus and possibly Dean will either betray or stand idly by doing nothing to help (foreshadowing from the knight Harry dreamed about Arthur Weasley and the snake). My real money for the betrayer is on Tonks. For starters she's new, likeable, and her clumsiness has bound to be for a reason. For another thing, why is she even in the Order? Because of Sirius? Doesn't seem like the best reason in the world. Something just isn't right there, and I think there's a reason for it. I do think, however, that she gets by the McGonagall Auror issue. Barely, but she was probably in the last group taken for training. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 6 19:21:39 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:21:39 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: > In the weeks leading up to the release of OoP, after JKR revealed > that a major character died, there was a lot of speculation about who > it would be, and if I remember correctly, Sirius was not high on > anyone's list. Now that we know it was him, and now that we have had > about six weeks to analyze every single word/theme/hint/prediction in > the book, I am wondering what people's theories are about why, in the > name of the plot, Sirius had to die. There are a lot of > possibilities, some obvious, and some less so. I am sure Harry will inherit something important from Sirius (if it wasn't the mirror) Basically I think it had to be Sirius because he was created to die. Rowling always knew she was going to kill him from the moment he was introduced. He represents the constant hardships and sense of loss and denial Harry has to endure. Sirius never got to be a proper gaurdian for Harry and now he never will. Harry never got the chance to have a real parent and now he's a man, so he doesn't need one. But Rowling made it a little easy on Harry for my liking. I think the reason Sirius was not on many people's lists was because his death means he was created just to die. Like Cedric Diggory. They expected more from him. They expected he would have a grand role. He won't. (I hope) Sure Harry will suffer and grieve. But people get through that. He's strong and I know he can handle grief. It is sad but it is nothing to how interesting it could have been. Harry struggling against the imposed desire for him to be like James. Trying to establish himself as an individual in the face of Sirius' nearly mad need to bring James back through Harry. Trying to decide who he wants to be in the face of the man Sirius would like him to become. Nobody really expected Harry to be able to deal with a depressed and unbalanced man like Sirius. He was a burden that no child is really expected to understand much less handle well (though many sadly have to). It would have been so interesting to see Harry take on more of the burden of caring for Sirius as he grew older. Instead of his parents giving him a substitute parent, Harry would have inherited a true responsibility - a burden. Family is like that - you have to take the good with the bad. And caring for a depressed or mentally ill relative is hard especially as the carefree childhood changes into a responsible adulthood. So Sirius had to die because he was built to cause Harry pain. But in a way I wish it had been a different kind of pain. Loss of soul and a struggle to maintain love in the face of resentment. It could have been great. This is only so-so.... Afterall Harry's already lost his parents so symbolically I don't think Rowling can sap much out of Sirius' death that she couldn't have gotten out of Diggory. That being said I really don't care that Sirius is dead and I am relieved that Molly is not. Golly From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:22:03 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Remus and Tonks [SHIP] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030806192203.64094.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75712 --- Anna wrote: > I think the manner in which Lupin introduced Tonks > to Harry had a > bit of a spark in it. I'll admit that I did not > pick up on this > when I first read the book. In fact, it was only > when I listened to > the audio book that I thought about it. Who knows, > maybe it was > just the way Jim Dale delivered the line. (I love > his Lupin voice) > Maybe I am trying way too hard to find a love > interest for Lupin. > Oh well, something to think about. > Buttecup: I love Jim Dale's impression of Lupin, too. In fact, I love all his voices for all the characters. How about Dobby's? I still think he should have done Dobby's voice in the second movie. As adults I think were looking for romance relationships between the adult characters, but I don't think that's a priority in JKR's plot. After all, it's a child's book, and I don't think kids are too interested in adult love, kids' love maybe (Harry, Ron, Hermione, etc.) And since these books are through Harry's eyes, if something is going on between the adults, he might not notice or even be present. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jesmck at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:27:28 2003 From: jesmck at yahoo.com (jesmck) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:27:28 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tallulah_sam" wrote: > Some things that have been troubling me since reading Gof... > 2) Why does Moody (a.k.a Crouch) teach them the Unforgivable > Curses? Why does he make sure Harry can fight off the Imperious > Curse? Surely this is a hindrance to LV? >>> I don't have my book with me, but I believe that Moody said he taught Harry to block the Imperious Curse so nothing would hinder him from winning the tournament thereby not reaching the portkey to the graveyard. Jessica From purrlygirlie at wildmail.com Wed Aug 6 19:37:11 2003 From: purrlygirlie at wildmail.com (purrlygirlie) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:37:11 -0000 Subject: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75714 A.J. wrote: > > I definitely see a love triangle in the works for HRH. > > > > I believe John Granger, who wrote _The Hidden Key to Harry Potter_, > > suspects such in the future because of the historical connotations > > behind Hermione's name. Now Purrly: I don't think John Granger is a good source to use to support h/h and evil Ron. I've read some of his stuff and attended his lecture at Nimbus. He is most decidedly a Ron/Hermione shipper. To quote his lecture notes: "For those involved in the 'shipping debate...this point suggests the eventual love match of Ron and Hermione" From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 22:28:15 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 15:28:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Mysteries References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75715 Jessica: I don't have my book with me, but I believe that Moody said he taught Harry to block the Imperious Curse so nothing would hinder him from winning the tournament thereby not reaching the portkey to the graveyard. Dan: I don't remember that... maybe he did, but it wouldn't make sense. Being able to fight Imperius might help against certain kinds of mind control, but Harry never encountered anything that could control minds in the tournament. Besides, Crouch was sabotaging the hole thing, anyways. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 22:32:56 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:32:56 -0000 Subject: Remus and Tonks [SHIP] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: I wouldn't be suprised if Lupin is the married teacher JKR refers to > in her interviews. She has said we would learn more about teachers and spouses - maybe Lupin was married. His wife would be so happy he got a job at Hogwarts, she may not have cared that he was gone. I mean she would be the one working. Of course, werewolves would have to be allowed to marry - are they? Since I think we will see more of Lupin in book 6, maybe we'll meet the mrs as well. If he is married,she should at least get him a new robe :) > > Lziner > I don't think Lupin is married. I doubt his robes would be so shabby if he were. I mean, if Mr. Weasly's salary can support 9 people (even with things being tight) then surely Lupin's wife could support the two of them so that even if his robes were secondhand they wouldn't be shabby. I know that not everyone gets paid the same amount of money, but we're never given the impression that Mr. Weasley's salary is particullarly high. Besides, I think if he were married either he would have been living with her (instead of at Grimauld place) or she'd have been living there with him. bibphile From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 19:44:44 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 12:44:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Died Because of Hate, Love, Old Age, Low Self-Esteem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030806194444.28554.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75717 Like a lot of tragedies in life, Sirius' death wasn't the blame of one person or one thing. He died because: 1. The evil/hatred of Voldemort, Bellatrix, Kreacher and Mr. & Mrs. Malfoy. 2. Harry's deep love for this godfather and his bravery for trying to save him unnecessarily. 3. Dumbledore's overlook in not telliing Harry that the Dark Lord would probably try to falsely lure him to the Ministry of Mysteries for the prophecy. If he had been honest with Harry a few months earlier, Sirius would be alive. 4. Sirius contributed to his own demise because of his feelings of worthlessness, which I might add aren't totally his fault. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Wed Aug 6 22:39:14 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:39:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Remus and Tonks [SHIP] Message-ID: <11a.26a4d1f8.2c62dd92@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75718 In a message dated 8/6/2003 6:35:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bibphile at yahoo.com writes: > I wouldn't be suprised if Lupin is the married teacher JKR refers to > > in her interviews. She has said we would learn more about > teachers and spouses - maybe Lupin was married. His wife would be > so happy he got a job at Hogwarts, she may not have cared that he > was gone. I mean she would be the one working. Of course, > werewolves would have to be allowed to marry - are they? Since I > think we will see more of Lupin in book 6, maybe we'll meet the mrs > as well. If he is married,she should at least get him a new robe :) > > > > Lziner > > > > I don't think Lupin is married. I doubt his robes would be so > shabby if he were. I mean, if Mr. Weasly's salary can support 9 > people (even with things being tight) then surely Lupin's wife could > support the two of them so that even if his robes were secondhand > they wouldn't be shabby. > > I know that not everyone gets paid the same amount of money, but > we're never given the impression that Mr. Weasley's salary is > particullarly high. > > Besides, I think if he were married either he would have been living > with her (instead of at Grimauld place) or she'd have been living > there with him. > > bibphile I agree...I couldn't see Lupin being married. But what if he was married once? I can see him falling in love with a girl...Him going on long trips...her 'dumping' him after finding out he's a werewolf (either out of prejudice or deciding it just wouldn't work/isn't worth the effort). ~Cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From explodingstar at adelphia.net Wed Aug 6 23:03:29 2003 From: explodingstar at adelphia.net (that space cadet glow) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:03:29 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "that space cadet glow" > wrote: > > My theory on why Sirius had to die has to do with the fact that for > > the first time, we really see Harry screw up and fail. It's because > > of Harry's actions (as well as DD's) that Sirius wound up being in > > the DoM and getting killed at all. We saw Harry fall into a trap > > Now me: > I agree that your theory makes a lot of sense as far as the reason > why "someone" had to die, but I think there were other people besides > Sirius who could have died because of a mistake of Harry's just as > easily. For example, JKR could have killed off any of the students > who went along with Harry without changing any of the plot and the > impact of Harry's screwing up leading to the death would have been > the same. I am trying to decide if there are specific reasons that > it was Sirius, as opposed to someone else. Maybe there isn't a real > reason, other than an emotional loss for Harry. I have been reading > the "second guessing JKR" thread and a lot of it makes sense to me - > certain things are in the story just to move the plot along > generally, not because they have some big, symbolic significance. > > Mhershey I think the reason it had to be Sirius in particular is probably the emotional impact it had on Harry. Also, and I know this sounds horrible, but it's possible that from a purely plot standpoint he was the most disposable character whose death would still make an emotional impact. We don't know what she has planned for Ron, Hermione or any of the other characters who are really close to Harry, but maybe they're still too important to kill off just yet in terms of further plot developments. ~dream From tracymmcneil at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 20:10:19 2003 From: tracymmcneil at yahoo.com (Tracy McNeil) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 13:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Luna and Harry In-Reply-To: <1060198133.12822.33018.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030806201019.50059.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75720 greatlit2003: > I also am in favor of Harry & Luna hooking up. However, the idea really doesn't seem to have a lot of popularity on this board. Probably because Luna is so weird, and so they don't want it to happen. But to be honest, it's exactly the kind of thing that Rowling would do. Harry dates the pretty, popular girl and finds out she's emotionally unstable and totally wrong for him. Then he dates the weird, unpopular girl, getting past his initial impression of her, and finds out she's really great! >>> Now me: I don't really care if Harry and Luna get together I just think she is into him. When she first shares the coach on the way to the Hogwarts, it's Ron that she dotes on and asks questions to and about. It's for Ron that she wears the Gryfindor Lion although she lives in another house. She is ALWAYS staring at or talking to Ron. I think the reason people might think there is potential between her and Harry is because the unspoken bond of "camaraderie of outsiders" they share, i.e. seeing people die and not always being accepted by the hogwarts mainstream. Similar to the "outsiders" bond he felt with Sirius. Note it is the loss of this understanding which makes him feel the most alone after Sirius' passing. (He even mentions it somewhere, but I don't have time to find it) Therefore, after Sirius death, it would make sense that he feels most comfortable with Luna. But this does not necessitate love. "Tracy McNeil" From meboriqua at aol.com Wed Aug 6 23:16:31 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:16:31 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Harry is under stress and has had what would be taumantic experience, but as m.steinberger pointed out the natural reaction to this is not to behave like a pissy suburban teen. I'd feel sorry for Harry, but he's doing a fine job of that on his own. He doesn't need my help. > I don't mind it so long as Rowling doesn't let him off on the crime of hurting Cho. But she does. She'd give just that explanation. And frankly I don't buy it one bit. There is no excuse for treating others badly. Harry of the first book knew this. He would have condemed and hated Harry in book5 for being mean.> I say: I think one of the problems here is that we all see things differently when it comes to Cho and Harry. I don't think Harry's behavior was so bad or inexcusable. I think he was nervous because the girl he had a crush on seemed to like him back. God, I remember being almost nauseous when the boy I liked at 15 was nice to me for five minutes. Harry has had virtually no experience with girls and doesn't really know how to behave appropriately. It must have been particularly hard for him when she kept crying around him and wanting to talk about Cedric. If the man I wanted to be with experienced a trauma like that, I wouldn't bother him about it unless he brought it up, but these are two teens who are realistically more concerned with their own agendas than with others. >Loyalty can be a weakness when it substitutes for personal thought. But I can't say I think standing by her friend is a hanging offence. Afterall Cho didn't participate in the betrayal. All she did was excuse it. Much like you excuse Harry's behaviour. Marietta was scared and weak. Most people are. But to paraphrase my favourite movie... Harry will never be a great person till he has some understanding and acceptance of human failure.> Me: Cho's loyalties were unacceptable to Harry, and that is okay. This was the moment between the two of them when they both realized it was never going to work. Harry's priority is fighting Voldemort and his followers and I don't blame him for brushing her off after that. Marietta can shove it too for all I care. Sometimes relationships reach a wall that can't be climbed (I am speaking from experience here) and it's time to move on. >(Unless you can somehow show me Harry is so messed up that treating Cho like an object is somehow part of an overarching psychological malady over which he has no control> Moi: I don't think Harry treated Cho like an object any more than she treated him like one. I think they simply should never have dated. It was doomed from day one. Doomed, I say! --jenny from ravenclaw ********* From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 23:18:04 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:18:04 -0000 Subject: Lupin's home (was Remus and Tonks SHIP]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75723 ~bibphile wrote: >I think if he were married either he would have been living > with her (instead of at Grimauld place) or she'd have been living > there with him. > > bibphile Me (Constance Vigilance) Does Lupin live at Grimauld Place? He hangs around there quite a bit, but I got the impression that Sirius lived there alone with Kreacher. At the end of GOF, Dumbledore tells (somebody?) to start gathering the Order by going to Lupin's place. Sorry about being so vague about the details, but I'm at work, no books. However, I don't think Lupin is married. ~ Constance Vigilance From cardenasmel at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 20:56:23 2003 From: cardenasmel at yahoo.com (Melissa Cardenas) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:56:23 -0000 Subject: The Giant Squid Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75724 Well, I know this is really not a central part of the storyline, but now that I'm waiting for Book 6, the little unexplained bits really catch my attention... :) The Giant Squid... Good or bad? References are made to the Giant Squid drifting lazily through the lake on sunny days, lifting little first years from the cold water into their boats, that they merpeople chase the squid away with their spears and that Lily would rather kiss the Giant Squid than James. In OoP, the group of girls in Snape's memory cooled their feet in the lake, but when HP is on the 2nd task, he hopes he doesn't run into the Giant Squid. I don't recall that anyone goes swimming in the lake. Does the Giant Squid eat Hogwarts students for lunch? :) Just silly thoughts... hehehe :) Melissa From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 6 21:31:34 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:31:34 -0000 Subject: Pure Blood Parentage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75725 Snip > How long are you a half-blood? I mean, if James was born from two wizards, he'd be a pure blood (we've never heard mention anything different) and Lilly seems to come from a muggle family (lots of debate on this, I'm sure...). Harry is considered a half- blood for this reason, but since he's born of a wizard and a witch, couldn't he be thought of as a pure blood? Is the muggle blood thing always there? > I'd love to hear your answers on this! > Cheers, > Rachel Me: Muggle blood is always there. If you have just one drop of muggle blood in your history you're a Half Blood, or at least not a Pure Blood. To be a Pure Blood you will have to be able to trace you lineage back generations for hundreds of years. It's why a family like the Black Family (and I'm sure the Malfoy and Lestrange Families as well) have family trees prominently and proudly displayed for all to see. Any addition of muggle blood is considered a stain by Pure Bloods and is the reason Andromeda was burned of her family tree. There is also speculation she is dead and taked to it's extreem it's not unlikely that a family will kill to keep it blood line 'clean'. Note: If you read about Black Slavery in US History and the racism that followed it didn't matter how white you looked, if any one of your relations was black you were considered black. Also in India today there are stories of girls being burned alive for bringing shame on a family by consorting with the wrong caste or class. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 6 21:44:46 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:44:46 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75726 acoteucla wrote: > I think most people would agree that there is going to be a major > betrayal (most likely in book 7). Assumedly it will be someone we > trust enough that it will be a huge shock. I'm hoping to stimulate > some discussion on who it will be. Here are my thoughts on the > various suspects. Make sure to mention any likely suspects I might > have missed. >>> Well I've proposed Ron in the 'Ron and the Imperious Curse' thread. We've got a huge love triangle in the works and betrayal and sorrow is the usual out come of love triangles in literature. There is plenty of room for Ron to betray Hermione and Harry even if he would never consider it or do it intentionally. Mandy From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 23:27:30 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:27:30 -0000 Subject: Lupin's home (was Remus and Tonks SHIP]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" wrote: > Me (Constance Vigilance) > > Does Lupin live at Grimauld Place? He hangs around there quite a bit, > but I got the impression that Sirius lived there alone with Kreacher. > At the end of GOF, Dumbledore tells (somebody?) to start gathering > the Order by going to Lupin's place. Sorry about being so vague about > the details, but I'm at work, no books. However, I don't think Lupin > is married. > > ~ Constance Vigilance "Lupin, who was staying in the house with Sirius but who left it for long periods of time. . ." (US 118) I took that to mean Lupin lived there. bibphile From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 6 21:47:51 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 21:47:51 -0000 Subject: Hints that Sirus would die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "supermonkee90" wrote: > In the 5th book I think there were signs that Sirius would die. One of > them was that Sirius lived at 12 Grimmauld Place. And Grim is the sign > of death (a dog). > > "supermonkee90" Interesting also Grimmauld Place is a play on words for 'Grim Old Place' which the house certanly is. Mandy From MadameZero at aol.com Wed Aug 6 22:45:33 2003 From: MadameZero at aol.com (Antbee78) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:45:33 -0000 Subject: Myrtle an Evans? (was: Is Lily Voldemort daughter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75729 "Marci" wrote: > A last name has not been given yet (has it?) so could Moaning Myrtle be an Evans? > (Please correct me if I'm wrong and her last name has in fact been > mentioned.) My crude timeline makes this possible, BUT ONLY IF > Myrtle was a FIRST YEAR when she died in 1942-43. This would mean > she was born in 1931. I feel that Petunia is 10 years older than > Lily, so Myrtle could have been 10 or more years older than Petunia. It could hold true that the Evanses did not have another child until after the first one, Myrtle, died. Yet, this one did not receive a letter from Hogwarts. The youngest one, however, did. Could they have been so proud to have a witch in the family because the first one died? (Although, I don't know if you would be so happy as to send you child to the same school where another one died years before.) >>> Bonnie wrote: It's an interesting theory, but I do have one major problem with it that I can't get around, sorry. I don't think that JKR would write Myrtle taking a romantic fancy to Harry if she were his aunt, at least I hope she wouldn't. Personal preferences aside though, I'm not sure where it says that Myrtle was a muggle-born. I thought she was at least a halfblood, because I thought she was in Slytherin. -Bonnie From looscann at sprynet.com Wed Aug 6 22:58:32 2003 From: looscann at sprynet.com (looscann) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 22:58:32 -0000 Subject: Firenze (was: Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75730 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: Additionally, > Jim Dale pronounced "Firenze" differently in book 5 than in book 1. > (We have all 5 audiotapes; when my daughter was younger, they held > her interest much better than reading the books; and they're great > for long car trips! :)) In the first book's tape, he pronounced it > with two syllables: fir-ENZ (which also happens to be the way Hagrid > pronounces it in the first movie, not that that's canon); but in book > 5, he says it with three syllables: fir-EN-zee. Personally, I don't > like the 3-syllable version; it sounds uneducated, for lack of a > better way to say that.... I don't know why JKR chose the name Firenze, but that is the Italian name for the Italian city we call Florence in English. Dale's 3- syllable pronunciation is closer to how it's said in Italian than his 2-syllable version. Perhaps JKR sees Firenze as the centaur version of the Renaissance Man and named him after one of the leading cities of the Renaiassance, choosing the Italian Firenze rather than the English Florence, as we use Florence as a woman's name. Are there female centaurs? Les From trinity61us at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 23:45:19 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <003101c35c67$d2a0b440$a79ccdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: <20030806234519.34648.qmail@web14903.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75731 I'm sorry, but IMVHO, Tonks is just TOO obvious! Whom did EVERYONE, after reading book 5, automaticly suspect? Tonks! JKR really dosen't play well with the obvious! Look at the Sirius death. Everyone thought it would be Hagrid or Hermione. But, then again she might be playing on that fact. She (Tonks) IS too obvoius, so we will forget about that, and then "WHAM!!!"!!! JKR, you evil person! LOL! I guess that's why we are here, though! Intregue! Suspense! Well, THAT cleared up a lot, didn't it?! Sorry... Alex Fox Richelle Votaw wrote: acoteucla wrote: > I think most people would agree that there is going to be a major > betrayal (most likely in book 7). Assumedly it will be someone we > trust enough that it will be a huge shock. I'm hoping to stimulate > some discussion on who it will be. Here are my thoughts on the > various suspects. Make sure to mention any likely suspects I might > have missed. Well, you covered most of my suspects, but I'll throw my two knuts in anyway. :) First, I certainly think there's at least one major betrayer still in the mix, as it would be entirely too dull without one. As to who it could be, well, that's another story. Ron is a possibility simply because of the constant desire for money and so on. Could be bribed, but I really doubt it. I think he'll remain loyal. I believe Seamus and possibly Dean will either betray or stand idly by doing nothing to help (foreshadowing from the knight Harry dreamed about Arthur Weasley and the snake). My real money for the betrayer is on Tonks. For starters she's new, likeable, and her clumsiness has bound to be for a reason. For another thing, why is she even in the Order? Because of Sirius? Doesn't seem like the best reason in the world. Something just isn't right there, and I think there's a reason for it. I do think, however, that she gets by the McGonagall Auror issue. Barely, but she was probably in the last group taken for training. Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 23:51:58 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 16:51:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Firenze (was: Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75732 Les: Are there female centaurs? Dan: There'd probably have to be. I don't see why not. We just haven't seen any. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From trinity61us at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 00:14:09 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:14:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius Died Because of Hate, Love, Old Age, Low Self-Esteem In-Reply-To: <20030806194444.28554.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030807001409.23942.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75733 Sirius died because he was bored, feeling useless, and he was too head-strong. No other reasons. MHO. Alex Fox Buttercup wrote: Like a lot of tragedies in life, Sirius' death wasn't the blame of one person or one thing. He died because: 1. The evil/hatred of Voldemort, Bellatrix, Kreacher and Mr. & Mrs. Malfoy. 2. Harry's deep love for this godfather and his bravery for trying to save him unnecessarily. 3. Dumbledore's overlook in not telliing Harry that the Dark Lord would probably try to falsely lure him to the Ministry of Mysteries for the prophecy. If he had been honest with Harry a few months earlier, Sirius would be alive. 4. Sirius contributed to his own demise because of his feelings of worthlessness, which I might add aren't totally his fault. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 00:18:42 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:18:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <003101c35c67$d2a0b440$a79ccdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> References: <003101c35c67$d2a0b440$a79ccdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: <15768444254.20030806171842@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75734 Hi, Wednesday, August 06, 2003, 3:12:27 PM, Richelle wrote: > Ron is a > possibility simply because of the constant desire for money and so on. > Could be bribed, but I really doubt it. I'm really starting to wonder where people get this "constant" desire for money. He gets upset a few times for not having much, but I really don't see Ron constantly thinking about wanting money and how to get more of it. And accepting a straight out bribe seems completely outlandish to me, looking at Ron's character development. Imperius is certainly a possibility, but not only for Ron. Just about every other character besides Harry could be it. I'd almost like to see Hermione as the one, since nobody seems to expect her to ever do anything against Harry. She might not be suspected for a long time... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 00:22:34 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 17:22:34 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8768676429.20030806172234@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75735 Hi, Wednesday, August 06, 2003, 1:21:42 PM, feetmadeofclay wrote: > I don't think you need experience to be kind to your girlfriend even > if she is your first! Maybe he would have been kinder, if he hadn't been pressured into the relationship (by Hermione, mostly). I think, Harry wouldn't have asked Cho for a date of his own account. Maybe they would have both been more ready a year later... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 00:25:21 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 00:25:21 -0000 Subject: The Giant Squid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cardenas" wrote: > > Well, I know this is really not a central part of the storyline, but > now that I'm waiting for Book 6, the little unexplained bits really > catch my attention... :) > > The Giant Squid... > Good or bad? > > References are made to the Giant Squid drifting lazily through the > lake on sunny days, lifting little first years from the cold water > into their boats, that they merpeople chase the squid away with their > spears and that Lily would rather kiss the Giant Squid than James. > In OoP, the group of girls in Snape's memory cooled their feet in the > lake, but when HP is on the 2nd task, he hopes he doesn't run into > the Giant Squid. I don't recall that anyone goes swimming in the > lake. Does the Giant Squid eat Hogwarts students for lunch? > > :) > > Just silly thoughts... hehehe :) > Melissa Viktor Krum dove off the ship into the lake in GoF. Other than the merpeople threatening it, I didn't get the impression that it is dangerous. Just because it isn't dangerous, doesn't mean I want to swim with one, though. Ravenclaw Bookworm From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 00:25:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 00:25:52 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > ...previous post edited out... > > There is one problem here, Sirius uncle left him a good bit of money > when he was around 16 and got wiped off the black family tree, in > the chapter the ancient and noble house of black, so it appartently > goes to who the person deceased left it too, and that would be > Harry. bboy_mn: My first thought here is that Sirius is the oldest son of Mr. Black, who is, presumably, brother to Alphard Black. If Alphard had no sons or children at all, it could be that the natural distribution of his estate would have been to Sirius, who we could assume is the nearest living blood male relation. Just one problem, if that was the natural course of settling Alphard estate, then how could the Black family be mad at him? Why would they delete him, Alphard, from the family tree? The resolution of his estate would seem a matter of law, and out of his control. That hints at the possiblity that the 'nearest blood male heir' method can be deviated from. On the other hand, if his name was Alphard Schwatz and he married into the Black family, he could have left all or a portion of his estate to Sirius and that got him wiped from the family tree. This seems more likely. If Alphard was a Black, then it seems that Sirius would have inherited more than some gold. A third possibility, is that the estate that Alphard inherited, in turn, when to the next male heir, and money Alphard personally made in his lifetime, went to Sirius. If I interpreted it correctly, this is what O_Caipora said. > I'm sure Dumbledore took care of making sure that Sirius > prepare just in case something did happen. > ...edited.. > > Lori I wonder if this is being set up to be the next big conflict between Harry and Draco? Harry and Draco battle is out in the 'Last Will and Testament' and the wishes of Sirius against Draco and 'the Right of Inheritance'. I have a feeling with his father in jail, Draco might be eager to get his hands on some new gold. I think the key to getting a better handle on this, is an understanding of the rights of a Godson. Does he have the Right of Inheritance; is he a member of the God family? I have absolutely no evidence, but I wonder if Phineas Nigellus' protrait will somehow be called into the fray to arbitrate the estate. Dispite being a Slytherin, I think he might favor Harry. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 00:41:16 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 00:41:16 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: >Lupin: >My favored choice: he's sympathetic, seemingly very kind, and has >Dumbledore's & Harry's trust. There's also some suspicious details >about the scene at the end of book 3 which are explained if Lupin >is evil. Of course, there's also some hard stuff to explain away >(like, why does he prevent Harry from going through the veil?) What details are you referring to in book 3? Lupin kept Harry from going through the veil because he knew it meant death. What is hard to explain about that? I agree that Lupin as the spy would be a real shocker. He knows that LV's supporters don't like non-humans, and he has had enougth difficulties in his life that, IMO, he appreciates the friends he has. Maybe it's because I like him so much, but I can't see him as the betrayer. Ravenclaw Bookworm From tania_schr at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 01:03:40 2003 From: tania_schr at hotmail.com (tania_schr) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:03:40 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <15768444254.20030806171842@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75739 --- > I'd almost like to see Hermione as the one, since nobody > seems to expect her to ever do anything against Harry. > > She might not be suspected for a long time... > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne mailto:siskiou at e... > I've been wondering about Hermione and her pen pal relationship with Krum. We don't know that much about him and it seems that Hermione writes quite a bit to him. She is smart and I think she is loyal, but I think it is possible she could be too trusting of Krum. Or even if Krum is trustworthy, that someone else might get ahold of her letters. Isn't his school known for something having to do with the dark arts? Tania From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:18:14 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:18:14 -0000 Subject: Why Bella didn't disapparate-was OOP Azkaban effects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > > I would not underestimate Bellatrix Lestrange. Even though she was > in Azkaban for 14 years, she is still a powerful witch. She killed > Sirius Black and is highly prized by Voldmorte. After all LV took a > huge risk coming back to the Ministry just to get her. > ...edited.. > Mandy bboy_mn: I don't think LV went to the Ministry 'just to get her'. I think he had been watching events unfold on, as I like to call it, Potter TV; that is, through Harry's eye. So, I am guessing he either came to make sure the prophecy was truly lost, or more likely, he was so furious that Harry and foiled him again he couldn't control himself, so he came to kill Harry. Here is something very interesting relative to Lestrang's ability to apparate, and how much Voldemort valued her. (could there be something in the romance department here?) ---OoP AM Ed HB pg 816-817--- (speaking scarlet-robed man with a pony tail; presumably an Auror) "I saw him, Mr. fudge. I swear, is was You-Know-Who, he grabbed a woman and disapparated." ---end quote--- Voldemort was in the process of possessing Harry just before he left. Harry was near the fountain, and Lestrange was across the room pinned under a statue. When the Aurors came, why would Voldemort move all the way across the room, leap on Lestranges body, and disapparate both of them together? That seem pretty risky. Voldemort in the past doesn't seem to have had any trouble throwing away DE's that were a liability to him, or to at least let them fend for themselves while Voldemort saved himself (somewhat reading between the lines here). Why take the risk? Why not let Lestrange get herself out? Whe not let her apparate on her own? I think it because, as Mandy said, Lestrange is very valuable to Voldemort, and this would push the weight of the data toward Lestrange not being able to apparate. Although, it possible she was dazed from being trapped under the weight of a large metal statue. The support for her being able to apparate, would seem to be the appearance of the DE's in the Room of Prophecies. My impression of their appearance is not that they stepped out of the shadows, because I don't think there were enough shadows to hide a dozen of them, so my assumption on reading that was that they apparated. Since Lestrange was amoung them, that would imply she apparated too. So, I guess Apparation isn't resolved one way or the other. But I think it is very telling that Voldemort would put himself at that degree of risk, just to cross the room and save Lestrange. Not sure what it adds up to, but I find it interesting. bboy_mn From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:21:36 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:21:36 -0000 Subject: book 5 flub Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75741 I just was looking at the american cover of OoP and reliezed that harry had his wand in his left hand. And in Ps/Ss he told olviander he was right handed. Garrett P.S. in other post you ca put in more flubs you have found From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:22:23 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:22:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pure Blood Parentage In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807012223.24590.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75742 Mandy wrote: Any addition of muggle blood is considered a stain by Pure Bloods and is the reason Andromeda was burned of her family tree. There is also speculation she is dead and taked to it's extreem it's not unlikely that a family will kill to keep it blood line 'clean'. My reply: I am one of the people who believes that Andromeda is dead. I do not think her family killed her, although, if she was in the original order or was in the wrong place at the wrong time I'm sure they would have had no hesitiations about killing her. The only reason why I feel she is dead is pure and simple...if she is alive..why wouldn't she be in the order? I personally believe that she could have controlled Kreacher...and having another "good" Black with Bellatrix on the loose could not have hurt. IT just seems odd that they are going on and on about needing more people..when Tonk's own mother could have been valuable and yet she isn't in it. But I mean I'm not saying that she was killed by deatheaters or her parents...she could have been killed by anyone. She could have died of natural causes. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From scooting2win at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:24:10 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:24:10 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tania_schr" wrote: > --- > > I'd almost like to see Hermione as the one, since nobody > > seems to expect her to ever do anything against Harry. > > > > She might not be suspected for a long time... > > > > -- > > Best regards, > > Susanne mailto:siskiou at e... > > > I've been wondering about Hermione and her pen pal relationship with > Krum. We don't know that much about him and it seems that Hermione > writes quite a bit to him. She is smart and I think she is loyal, > but I think it is possible she could be too trusting of Krum. Or > even if Krum is trustworthy, that someone else might get ahold of > her letters. Isn't his school known for something having to do with > the dark arts? > > Tania Hermoine! no don't think so, not only is she smart but she has common sense too, so no i don't think she would ever do that. Ever. Lori From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:27:16 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <003101c35c67$d2a0b440$a79ccdd1@l3820.tjdo.com> Message-ID: <20030807012716.18006.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75744 My real money for the betrayer is on Tonks. For starters she's new, likeable, and her clumsiness has bound to be for a reason. For another thing, why is she even in the Order? Because of Sirius? Doesn't seem like the best reason in the world. Something just isn't right there, and I think there's a reason for it. I do think, however, that she gets by the McGonagall Auror issue. Barely, but she was probably in the last group taken for training. Richelle My thinking about Tonks is that she might be in the order because Andromeda either is or was. I don't think that Tonks is the mole for the simple reason that she's obviously very much a daddy's girl. And Ted is a muggle born...I can't imagine her betraying her father like that. But honestly, if you are in need of people like the order is...you take who you can get. If she believed that Sirius was innocent...and believed Harry and Dumbledore..why wouldn't she join? ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:30:07 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:30:07 -0000 Subject: Andromeda dead? (was: Re: Pure Blood Parentage) In-Reply-To: <20030807012223.24590.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > I am one of the people who believes that Andromeda is dead. I do not think her family killed her, although, if she was in the original order or was in the wrong place at the wrong time I'm sure they would have had no hesitiations about killing her. > > The only reason why I feel she is dead is pure and simple...if she is alive..why wouldn't she be in the order? I personally believe that she could have controlled Kreacher...and having another "good" Black with Bellatrix on the loose could not have hurt. have been removed] > I don't think she's dead. Tonks referred to her in present tense. "My mom's got this knack stuff to fit itself in neatly -- she even gets the socks to fold themselves -- but I've never mastered how she does it . . ." (US pp. 53) That sounds alive to me. I know Sirius said she *was* his favorite cousin, but I think that's just because he hasn't seen her in years. As far as her not being in the order, there could be several reasons. Arthur wasn't in the order the first time. Several of the teachers at Hogwarts don't appear to be in the Order even though they know the situation and are on Dumbledore's side. I don't think Andromeda would have been able to control Kreacher though. bibphile From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:30:33 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:30:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Remus and Tonks [SHIP] In-Reply-To: <11a.26a4d1f8.2c62dd92@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030807013033.18518.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75746 I agree...I couldn't see Lupin being married. But what if he was married once? I can see him falling in love with a girl...Him going on long trips...her 'dumping' him after finding out he's a werewolf (either out of prejudice or deciding it just wouldn't work/isn't worth the effort). ~Cassie~ I could see that too...actually taht would be a great fan fic plot! lol We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 01:39:07 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 18:39:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11673270073.20030806183907@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75747 Hi, Wednesday, August 06, 2003, 6:24:10 PM, scooting2win wrote: > Hermoine! no don't think so, not only is she smart but she has > common sense too, so no i don't think she would ever do that. Ever. I was actually referring to the Imperius curse, though Hermione does have this "anything goes to reach her goal" attitude ( so far, ultimately for the good). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 01:42:54 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:42:54 EDT Subject: Who did Bertha see kissing Florence? Lucius Malfoy, anyone?? Message-ID: <198.1e1b05b9.2c63089e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75748 I know it's been mentioned often enough that others think there's got to be some reason we saw Bertha in DD's pensieve in GoF. The bit of her was the only thing from the pensieve that didn't appear to contain inportant info (because we'd already learned about Bertha's gossiping propensity from Sirius), but, of course, everything JKR includes is a red herring or important. So if it's important, whoever did the hexing is significant, and I think OotP finally gave us information leading to a possible (I think, probable) identity of the mystery hexer, assuming it was not one of the Mauraders or Snape. We learned that Lucius Malfoy is 41 in OotP, and JKR said in an interview that Lupin (or Sirius, whatever, since they were in the same year anyway) was 35 or 36 in PoA, making them 37 or 38 in OotP, which would mean that they would've been 3-4 years behind Lucius at Hogwarts. Sirius said in GoF that Bertha was a few years above them at Hogwarts, and now we know that Lucius was as well. I find it much likelier that Bertha was hexed by someone closer to her own age, Lucius Malfoy, than by someone 3 or 4 years her junior (meaning one of the Mauraders or Snape). Of course, even if this were true, it still doesn't mean it's important, but I'm really hoping it is! One of my favorite things about JKR's writing is how things that appear to be chance comments in the book turn out to be hugely significant (one of my favorites is the chamber pot room being the ever-so-important Room of Requirement). ~RSFJenny :) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:57:43 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:57:43 -0000 Subject: Harry I & Harry II (not TT) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75749 No this isn't another Time Turner post. I'm willing to bet that sometime in the next two books, Tonks will impersonate Harry. Whether for good or for bad, I'm not sure. My vision is that she will take on Harry's form in the heat of battle to draw the bad guys away from the real Harry. One uncomfortable question remains; just how /complete/ will her transformation into Harry be? If you know what I mean; nudge, nudge, wink, wink. Just a thought. bboy_mn From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 02:01:26 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 19:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Andromeda dead? (was: Re: Pure Blood Parentage) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807020126.24200.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75750 I don't think Andromeda would have been able to control Kreacher though. bibphile Why not? My whole reasoning for feeling that she could is that Sirius, although removed from the tapestry, is able to control Kreacher. Had Sirius had children they may have not been able to control him. My thinking is once you are removed your kin is completely erased. Thus, Tonks was never on the tapestry..because in its mind she was never born. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Thu Aug 7 02:06:21 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:06:21 -0000 Subject: Luna and Harry In-Reply-To: <20030806201019.50059.qmail@web41809.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Tracy McNeil wrote: > greatlit2003: > > I also am in favor of Harry & Luna hooking up. > However, the idea really doesn't seem to have a lot of > popularity on this board. Probably because Luna is so > weird, and so they don't want it to happen. But to be > honest, it's exactly the kind of thing that Rowling > would do. Harry dates the pretty, popular girl and finds > out she's emotionally unstable and totally wrong for him. > Then he dates the weird, unpopular girl, getting past his > initial impression of her, and finds out she's really great! >>> > > > Now me: > I don't really care if Harry and Luna get together I > just think she is into him. When she first shares the > coach on the way to the Hogwarts, it's Ron that she > dotes on and asks questions to and about. It's for Ron > that she wears the Gryfindor Lion although she lives > in another house. She is ALWAYS staring at or talking > to Ron. > I think the reason people might think there is > potential between her and Harry is because the > unspoken bond of "camaraderie of outsiders" they > share, i.e. seeing people die and not always being > accepted by the hogwarts mainstream. Similar to the > "outsiders" bond he felt with Sirius. Note it is the > loss of this understanding which makes him feel the > most alone after Sirius' passing. (He even mentions it > somewhere, but I don't have time to find it) > Therefore, after Sirius death, it would make sense > that he feels most comfortable with Luna. But this > does not necessitate love. > > "Tracy McNeil" Jennifer writes: I think you have hit the nail on the head. He and Luna share something very important but that's not necessarily the chemistry for romance. I find it difficult to believe Harry's going to have many more conventional experiences in his life. Even if he develops a special relationship with someone, the duress of the role he must play will not allow much time for development in a predictable teenage kind of way. Harry's left so much behind. He's a universe away now. Jennifer From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 02:16:02 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:16:02 -0000 Subject: The Giant Squid In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cardenas" > wrote: > > > > Well, I know this is really not a central part of the storyline, > but > > now that I'm waiting for Book 6, the little unexplained bits > really > > catch my attention... :) > > > > The Giant Squid... > > Good or bad? > > > > References are made to the Giant Squid drifting lazily through the > > lake on sunny days, lifting little first years from the cold water > > into their boats, that they merpeople chase the squid away with > their > > spears and that Lily would rather kiss the Giant Squid than > James. > > In OoP, the group of girls in Snape's memory cooled their feet in > the > > lake, but when HP is on the 2nd task, he hopes he doesn't run into > > the Giant Squid. I don't recall that anyone goes swimming in the > > lake. Does the Giant Squid eat Hogwarts students for lunch? > > > > :) > > > > Just silly thoughts... hehehe :) > > Melissa > > Viktor Krum dove off the ship into the lake in GoF. Other than the > merpeople threatening it, I didn't get the impression that it is > dangerous. Just because it isn't dangerous, doesn't mean I want to > swim with one, though. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm I do remeber a sidenote in one of the books that there were people on the grounds and swimming. But i don't know which one. Garrett From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Thu Aug 7 02:26:28 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:26:28 -0000 Subject: Harry in Potions NEWT In-Reply-To: <20030806183915.59922.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75753 Lee wrote: > > > ***snip*** > > > Oh, btw, am I the only one who thinks Harry is > > going on to Potions > > > NEWT level? Think about it... ;) > > Buttercup: > > Nope! I agree. Harry's going to be in Potions NEWT > level. With Snape's absense he felt more relaxed and > thought he "might not have achieved a good grade but > that he had, with luck, avoided a fail." I know Snape > said that he only accepts "O's," but I don't think > he'll be teaching Potions in Book 6. A new Potions > teacher with lower standards would accept Harry into > the NEWT. I believe Snape'll be teaching DADA. > > > ===== > Buttercup > I agree. I also think that the way Snape bullies, pushes and unfairly marks the Gryffindors and most especially, Harry, will result in them not having a very accurate gauge of what "Average" really is and will result in them being far beyond what they are expected to be for OWL level. I think an Outstanding earned by HArry will be a direct result of Snape making him work so damn hard to earn the poor/average marks he does. (Think about it: Snape doesn't care how good he does, he just wants to give Harry a crappy grade, or at best, an average grade. Harry wants to prove Sanpe wrong and continually works to improve his Potions grade. Unfortunately the Potions *Grades* don't improve because of Snape, but his 8abilties* do. All in thanks to Professor Snape:-) Arya From o_caipora at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 23:37:42 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 23:37:42 -0000 Subject: Pure Blood Parentage In-Reply-To: <200308062259.04075.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75754 Carolina wrote: > > > How long are you a half-blood? > > bibphile: > The snobby ones would consider them half-bloods forever. This reminded me of Louis XIV requiring "sixteen quarterings" for ladies in waiting or somesuch. I looked it up and found "The Eve of the French Revolution", by Edward J. Lowell, writing on medieval religous orders: "No lady was received into this chapter who could not show nine generations or two hundred and twenty-five years of chivalric, noble descent, both on the father's and on the mother's side. "The Benedictines of Saint Claude, transformed into a chapter of canonesses, required sixteen quarterings for admission; that is to say, that every canoness must show by proper heraldic proof, that her sixteen great--grandfathers and great--grandmothers were of noble blood. The Knights of Malta required but four quarterings." More recently, one recalls Ambrose Bierce's definition of creating a family tree: "Tracing one's ancestry until reaching someone who did not care to trace his own." So Finch-Fletchley's "nine generations" have historic parallel. Forever is a long time, and being able to produce (or create) x generation of one's own ancestry is far easier than disproving someone else's. silmariel said: > In Dark Ages, Medieval Spain suffered a 'blood cleaning' process. No Jews or Arabian folk. The rule was if you could prove your four grandparents were clean, your blood was clean. >From which time dates the decline of Spain. Salazar Slitherin's first name is Iberian. Is he Basque? The founding of Hogwarts is about the time of the Song of Roland. Did Slitherin flee Spain just ahead of the invading Moors? - Caipora From lziner at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 00:26:20 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 00:26:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin's home (was Remus and Tonks SHIP]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Miller" > wrote: > > > Me (Constance Vigilance) > > > > Does Lupin live at Grimauld Place? He hangs around there quite a > bit, > > but I got the impression that Sirius lived there alone with > Kreacher. > > At the end of GOF, Dumbledore tells (somebody?) to start gathering > > the Order by going to Lupin's place. Sorry about being so vague > about > > the details, but I'm at work, no books. However, I don't think > Lupin > > is married. > > > > ~ Constance Vigilance > > "Lupin, who was staying in the house with Sirius but who left it for > long periods of time. . ." (US 118) > > I took that to mean Lupin lived there. > > bibphile Maybe he was just staying with Sirius because he knew how difficult it was for Sirius to be there. Where was he going for long periods of time? Guard duty didn't seem to be that long and he didn't have a job. Or maybe he did - I recall something about umbridge limiting the amount of hours werewolves could work? I'll have to check my book. Still hoping for a mrs. Lziner From andie at knownet.net Thu Aug 7 02:40:59 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:40:59 -0000 Subject: Harry I & Harry II (not TT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > No this isn't another Time Turner post. > > I'm willing to bet that sometime in the next two books, Tonks will > impersonate Harry. Whether for good or for bad, I'm not sure. > > My vision is that she will take on Harry's form in the heat of battle > to draw the bad guys away from the real Harry. > > One uncomfortable question remains; just how /complete/ will her > transformation into Harry be? > > If you know what I mean; nudge, nudge, wink, wink. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn A very interesting idea... I would agree. Do you also think that Harry will work "the hard way" to become a metamorphmagus (sp) so that the deception of DE's can also work that way? grindieloe :) From jedillore at rcn.com Thu Aug 7 00:40:37 2003 From: jedillore at rcn.com (Emily Rose) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:40:37 -0500 Subject: Pure Blood Parentage In-Reply-To: <1060198133.12822.33018.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75758 > Message: 19 > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 15:52:33 -0000 > From: "clarinut76" > Subject: Pure Blood Parentage > > > How long are you a half-blood? I mean, if James was born from two > wizards, he'd be a pure blood (we've never heard mention anything > different) and Lilly seems to come from a muggle family (lots of > debate on this, I'm sure...). Harry is considered a half-blood for > this reason, but since he's born of a wizard and a witch, couldn't he > be thought of as a pure blood? Is the muggle blood thing always > there? Interesting question. I always thought of it like royalty. Royal blood lines intermarried each other so that royalty could always marry royalty. However, when Prince Charles married Diana, she was the daughter of an Earl. Therefore she was a peer, but not a royal. Once married she became "Princess Diana" and her two sons, the offspring of a royal and a peer with a royal title, are Princes. Anyone who marries Prince William, will gain the title of Princess because he is of royal blood. However, when Diana divorced Charles, she kept her princess title, but any other children she bears will be peers, not royals. Sirius's family tree reminds me of a royal family tree though magical vs. muggle born seems more complicated since it is based on certain abilities rather than titles. It's even weirder if you think about it from a genetics point of view. Let's say there is a gene for magical ability. Genes come in pairs because you get one half from your mother and the other half from your father. It's going to get ugly. Ready? Here we go... If the gene for magic is recessive then the gene for non-magic is dominant. Therefore, if pure blood families are "true breeding" (offspring always have magical ability) it means that all the dominant non-magic genes have been bred out so all there are only recessive magical genes - pure bloods can only have more magical offspring. This means that it would be impossible for a squib to be born to a witch and a wizard because neither would carry any dominant non-magical genes. A Squib could only be born if a witch or wizard married a muggle with at least one dominant non-magic gene (Remember you need 2 recessive magical genes for magical ability to be present). A squib would carry a recessive magical gene and a dominant non-magic gene making it possible for the squib to give birth to magical offspring if they coupled with a witch or wizard. In Hermione's case, she is a magical child born of muggles meaning that both her parents are "carriers" of a recessive magical gene; in other words they have a 1 in 4 chance of having magical offspring. A muggle carrier would have the same two genes as a squib by the way: one recessive magical and one dominant non-magical. In the case of Harry's parents, both of them carry only recessive magical genes meaning there was a 100% chance that Harry would have magical ability - just like in a pure blood family. It also means that like Hermione's parents, Petunia's parents were both carriers of magical genes meaning that Petunia could be a carrier too. If that is the case, there is a 50% chance that so is Dudley. So depending on the type of person who would marry and have children with Dudley, there is a possibility that the Dursley's could have a grandchild at Hogwarts someday. This doesn't work the other way around because if magical ability was the dominant gene, then there would be hardly any muggles and "pure blood" families wouldn't breed true. Personally, I think it's best not to think about any of this when reading the books. :-) -e From jedillore at rcn.com Thu Aug 7 00:46:18 2003 From: jedillore at rcn.com (Emily Rose) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 19:46:18 -0500 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: <1060186517.13959.46332.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75759 I'm going to respond to a few comments that got me thinking... From: "frumenta" > First of all, welcome to the list! Good to have another Snape fiend > among us. Now, I think that for Snape to want to see Harry fall 50 > feet down to his death because of what his father did, would be a > bit much, don't you think? > Thanks. I'd say "Snape Fiend" is a little extreme. It's more like he was wallpaper before and now I've realized he's actually an integral part of the room. :) As for wanting Harry to hit the ground, I'm sure you're right, Snape wouldn't have done it. Then again, speaking of extremes, Snape is a fairly extreme guy. I'm sure he would have at least enjoyed thinking about it. I know that if I'd had my dirty grey underpants exposed to the entire school by Harry's dad I would have... > From: "Regina" > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Emily Rose > wrote: >> We also know from Book 4 that Voldemort >> knows that Snape isn't coming back and he's pissed off about it. > > How do we know this? Is this in reference to Voldemort's speech in > the graveyard, when he says he believes one has left him forever and > will be killed? I had assumed that V was referring to Snape at the > time I read it, but now I'm not so sure. > Well, one thing I've noticed about Rowling is that she plays her cards close to her chest until she's ready to reveal her hand, but when she does it's very obvious. For instance, we find out Harry is a parselmouth during the second chapter of Sorcerer's Stone, but like a good magician she distracts us with other stories about shrinking sweaters and disappearing glass. The fact that Harry talked to the snake first hardly appears extraordinary compared to the rest. But in the second book we realize that not only is it extraordinary, but also pivotal to the whole 7 year story arc - way more important than the disappearing glass. In the graveyard in Book 4 Voldemort looks at a space in his circle of death eaters and names two: "One, too cowardly to return...He will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever, he will be killed of course." I have always felt that at least one of these guys is Snape (and the other is Karkaroff since the he was blithering around in Snape's classroom afraid of the mark on his hand). So Voldemort is either going to make him pay or kill him - a bad deal either way. But you're right, he never actually says Snape. It could be Lupin and Sirius for all we know, but when we do find out, it's going to be obvious as hell. And you know, in re-reading that passage I just noticed something that for Harry was a big revalation in book 5: "Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure his protection as long as he is in his relation's care. Not even I can touch him there." So during book 5, the big mystery as to who sent Petunia the howler, why does Harry have to stay at #4 Privet drive when it seems much safer to be under the protection of the Weasley's et al, and why do the Dursley's bother to keep him around when they obviously despise him has already been answered for us in the previous book. Unfortunately once again I was too distracted by all the other stuff going on to notice... > But what if Voldemort still believes Snape is loyal to him? The whole > Occlumency thing...Voldemort knows when someone is lying to him > because he is a Legilimens. But if Snape is skilled at occlumency, he > would be able to prevent Voldemort from entering his mind and knowing > that he's lying. So it's possible that Voldemort still thinks he's > loyal. Oy. When it comes to occlumency and legilimensy, I'm about as confused as Harry. You could be right. I have no idea. >The big question is what makes DD so sure Snape is on his > side? Can't wait to find out. Neither can I. -e From HumWolf at aol.com Thu Aug 7 01:29:55 2003 From: HumWolf at aol.com (HumWolf at aol.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:29:55 EDT Subject: Subject: Re: Second guessing JKR Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75760 Reading is what goes on between what the writer has written and what the reader reads. Since every reader comes to a text with a unique perspective and background, that writer/reader mingling in the reading/interpretation is unique to each reader. The great classics are great because they touch many readers (across time) on many levels. They reveal the writer's interpretation of those aspects of life, which the reader can agree/disagree with. At the least, the reader can understand another person's feelings about life, even if that person is long gone. As for second guessing JKR, I think that a writer both intentionally and unintentionally gives information to the reader. There has to be a plan (plot lines, character development, setting etc.) so of course JKR has put information in the stories with intent. On the other hand, as a great story teller, I'm sure many of her ideas are in there just because she's a great writer. Finding connections to our lives, real life, the world, or taking our imaginations to a school for wizards are what great readers do with a text. JKR has given us "word junkies" plenty of fodder for all of it! Donna From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:04:35 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:04:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807030435.77061.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75761 B Arrowsmith wrote: Kneasy said: . . . I can only find Godrics Hollow referred to as 'house' not a 'home', wording that could be significant knowing JKRs emphasis on the magical powers of "home' So, is it home? If not, where is? And who has the keys? ----------- When I read the bit about Godric's Hollow, I thought of an area like Hogsmeade. Can anyone cite the canon for the reference? The HP Lexicon says it's a Muggle Village where Lilly and James had a cottage (apparently "blown up" by Voldy). So I doubt there's anything left of it. owlery2003 Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 01:49:59 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 01:49:59 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "that space cadet glow" wrote: >> I think the reason it had to be Sirius in particular is probably the > emotional impact it had on Harry. Also, and I know this sounds > horrible, but it's possible that from a purely plot standpoint he was > the most disposable character whose death would still make an > emotional impact. We don't know what she has planned for Ron, Hermione > or any of the other characters who are really close to Harry, but > maybe they're still too important to kill off just yet in terms of > further plot developments. Laura: There was also going to be a problem in terms of plot in getting Sirius exonerated. I have no doubt that JKR could do it, but with Peter unavailable to testify it would have been difficult. Everything Peter said in the Shrieking Shack was hearsay, and even if it could be admitted into evidence at a trial, who could present it? Three kids and a werewolf. I'm surprised, being new to this list, at the number of people who can't stand Sirius. I wonder why his character has provoked such strong negative reactions. After all, he's hardly the worst person in the books, even excluding LV. Do men feel less comfortable with Sirius than women? For the record, I love him and think he's a very human character whose situation was terribly sad. He was almost like a Shakespearean character, whose every move leads to disaster despite the very best of motives. Laura From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Aug 7 01:57:53 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 20:57:53 -0500 Subject: Wizard Genetics - Or fun with Mendel's peas.. References: Message-ID: <3F31B221.2080704@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75763 I have my own theory on Wizard genetics. Need a little simple Mendel set up though. ;) Chromosomes w = no magic W = Magic ww (recessive -muggle- genes) = Muggle Ww (Heterozygous muggle/wizard) = Wizard WW (Double dominate Wizard gene - Presence of two W genes cancel each other out and produce non-magical child) = Squib Okay, I know what you are going to say. If Wizards are heterozygous, then why the whole pureblood thing? In fact, no wizard is a 'true' pure wizard, as two W's would make it a squib. There is canon to suggest that more squibs are born to pureblood families and Wizard/Wizard matings. Too many generations of wizards mated to wizards might in fact cause the race to start dying out, particularly if there are any 'lethal' genes connected to the W gene at all. Ww + Ww = 1/2 wizard children Out of 4 kids: 1 squib 2 wizards 1 'muggle' (might be passed off for being a squib though or this cross might result in a lethal gene which might explain lower numbers of children in pureblood families (except for the Weasleys, perhaps) WW + WW = Squibs only (might be considered muggles after a couple generations of Squibs marrying Squibs though, but in fact are carriers of the 'magic gene'. WW + Ww = 3/4 wizard children Out of 4 kids: 1 squib 3 wizards WW + ww = All wizard children (this however might explain muggle born wizards as one partner being a 2nd or more generation Squib, causing it to appear to skip generations.) Ww + ww = 1/2 Wizard children Out of 4 kids: 2 Wizards 2 Muggles (Now, there is a possibility of a Wizard (Ww) born with very weak powers perhaps due to presence of other genes that interfere with magic? This might mean that Lily's parents might have appeared to be muggles, but in fact could have been a 'very weak' Ww Wizard (born of a Squib and a muggle maybe?) and a ww Muggle. Whatever gene was interfering with the 'weak Ww' parent could have not been passed on to Lily. One of Lily's parents could also have been a case of abnormal genes, were a third gene fails to split creating something similar to sex gene abnormalities like a XXY (hermaphrodite) One might have a WWw or Www, who are either very powerful or totally appearing to have no magic at all, depending on how the extra chromosome effects the person. (I was a Biology major and genetics has been a interest of mine. I once charted out triple helix genetics of Pernese dragons) Jazmyn From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 02:42:57 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:42:57 -0000 Subject: book 5 flub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > I just was looking at the american cover of OoP and reliezed that > harry had his wand in his left hand. And in Ps/Ss he told olviander > he was right handed. > Garrett > P.S. in other post you ca put in more flubs you have found Good catch, thanks for pointing that out! Your post made me look at all the covers, and -- I guess the artist didn't read the first book and nobody has corrected her about Harry being right-handed instead of left-handed, because in CoS the Sword of Gryffindor is on the right side of Harry's body (which means he would have drawn it out with his left hand), in SS he is catching the snitch in his left hand, in PoA he is holding Buckbeak's reigns in his left hand, and in GoF he has his wand in his left hand too. From killerwhaletank at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 02:44:01 2003 From: killerwhaletank at hotmail.com (Tara) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:44:01 -0500 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75765 Hello all. This is my first time posting to the list, and I had to jump in on the Snape discussion. e wrote: > Until book 5 I was never very fond of Snape as a character. He seemed to be > there as yet another way to make Harry's life miserable. But after reading > the end of Book 5 I suddenly realized that Snape and Harry are in the same > boat when it comes to Voldemort and that makes some of Snape's actions in > the earlier books much more interesting. I never liked Snape much either, but there was something I found interesting about Snape teaching Harry the Occlumency lessons, and it kind of ties into what you said about Snape and Harry being in the same boat. Forgive me if this ground has been covered already. Harry and Snape are in the same boat in more ways than just being against Voldemort. From Snape's memories about his days at school with James and the gang we've discovered that Snape was bullied and was a bit of an outcast in school. This is something that Harry knows only too well from the Muggle schools that he was in before going to Hogwarts. For his entire life with the Dursleys, he's always been Dudley's favourite punching bag. I believe it's said in other places in the series that Harry was bullied bullied at school frequently by Dudley's gang, and outside of school as well. He learned how to avoid them for the most part. When Snape is teaching Harry Occlumency, he sees a lot of Harry's personal memories outside of Hogwarts, and these unpleasant memories are probably things that Snape never considered Harry to have gone through. He has seen for the past decade what Harry has meant to the Wizarding World, but he's probably never had to consider that Harry means nothing to the Muggle World, and is nothing but a joke to his cousin. During the Occlumency lessons, Harry remembers being chased up the tree by one of Aunt Marge's dogs and his family laughing at him and leaving him up there. After the memory is over, Snape actually asks Harry who the dog belonged to. Anyhow, I just wondered if this might come into play later on... and if there ever might be some kind of understand that would develop between Snape and Harry. I always thought that one of the reasons Snape was so eager to drop the Occlumency lessons was because perhaps some of these memories that he was seeing of Harry's had the danger of humanizing Harry to him. I don't think Snape wants to feel anything other than dislike for Harry. I'm not saying it's the entire reason, but I wondered if it wasn't a factor. e: > But, we also now know that James tormented Snape in school and so his > feelings of animosity towards Harry based on the treatment by Harry's father > are fairly justified. I'm not sure I agree that James' torment of Snape justifies Snape in turn tormenting Harry. It wasn't Harry that picked on Snape, and therefore it's not Harry that should have to pay the price. Why should he have to be punished for something that happened before he was even born. On the other hand, I can see how Snape wouldn't be able to forget his hard feelings, but that still doesn't justify him acting badly. e: > So Snape has now become one of my favorite characters. He's not one of my favourites, but I like him and the way his character deepens the further we go along. :) Brief Chronicles: > My impression of Snape is that he *doesn't* really hate Harry. Remember how Mrs. Figg said she purposely tried to be boring so that Harry would hate going there, and therefore be sent to her house regularly. What if Snape works hard to make Harry hate him so that Draco Malfoy can report home to his DE family that Snape is definitely *not* on Harry Potter's side? Me: That's an interesting thought that I'd never considered... but I like it. It doesn't have to mean that he likes Harry all that much, just that he doesn't hate him as much as he pretends to. :) And it's something I could see him doing for sure... it also kind of explains how Dumbledore has let Snape's prejudice towards Harry continue unchallenged for 5 years. Surely Dumbledore and the other teachers haven't been completely blind towards the animosity that Snape shows Harry. Tara From killerwhaletank at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 02:56:20 2003 From: killerwhaletank at hotmail.com (Tara) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 21:56:20 -0500 Subject: Luna and Harry References: <1060219639.3165.93625.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75766 greatlit2003 wrote: > Hi. Sorry if this has been posted already, I haven't read everything. > Could Luna and Harry grow closer, and possibly start dating? They > both have an interesting outlook on the world because of their life > experiences. I think that there is the potential for understanding and friendship between them, but I'm not sure I can see them dating, really. But then with JKR, who knows. > I cannot imagine any ordinary girl (like Cho) dating > Harry again, because they cannot understand him. His life, as we see > at the end of OOP, is beyond the kind of stuff ordinary teenagers do. I agree. But I also think that this is the same reason why Ginny Weasley could be a good match for Harry down the road. Ginny is really the only one of Harry's friends that has had to face Voldemort (as Tom Riddle, but she still had to face him), and JKR has made a few references to this. In book 3, when the Dementors come onto the train, she mentions Ginny's reaction, and Ginny seems to be the person who is most affected (next to Harry of course) by the Dementors. Then in book 5, when Harry's feeling sorry for himself after Mr. Weasley is attacked by the snake, Ginny tells him to basically knock it off, and that he has never been possessed by Voldemort. She, on the other hand, has. I just thought it was interesting because the other characters seems to forget for the most part that Ginny had a pretty nasty ordeal with Voldemort in the second book, and yet her experience makes her someone that Harry could potentially really talk to about some of things he has to deal with. Jazmyn wrote: > I suggested this as part of the posts on Harry and Cho, but noone seemed > to pick up on it. I feel Luna and Harry will in fact grow closer. They > have a lot in common afterall, being as both were thought of as crazy, > though Luna wasn't troubled by the fact. In fact, she's not rattled by > anything really. I do think they will grow closer, but I don't know if it will be romantically. acoteucla: > I also am in favor of Harry & Luna hooking up. However, the idea > really doesn't seem to have a lot of popularity on this board. > Probably because Luna is so weird, and so they don't want it to > happen. I don't know about anybody else, but for me, I don't see it mostly because I'm strongly in favour of Ginny and Harry getting closer throughout the next two books. :) > Erin: > I also think she'd be good > for Harry, even if only for a time. They play off one another well and she > balances out Hermione as a female influence. I love the way she and Hermione interact. They're such opposites. Tara From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:00:44 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? In-Reply-To: <198.1e1b05b9.2c63089e@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030807030044.46225.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75767 --- RSFJenny19 at aol.com wrote: > We learned that Lucius Malfoy is 41 in OotP, and JKR > said in an interview that > Lupin (or Sirius, whatever, since they were in the > same year anyway) was 35 or > 36 in PoA, making them 37 or 38 in OotP... Buttercup asks: I must have misunderstood the interview, I thought she was referring to their ages in Book 1 as 35 or 36 years old, which would make them 40 or 41 in Book 5. Did she specifically say POA? Thanks! ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From killerwhaletank at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 03:01:31 2003 From: killerwhaletank at hotmail.com (Tara) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:01:31 -0500 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James References: <1060219639.3165.93625.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75768 Hi everyone, I was just wondering what you thought about Sirius seeming to confuse Harry for James in book 5. To be honest, if JKR hadn't explicitly had other characters mention it, I never would have picked up on that, and even though it was stated in the book, the idea felt a little bit forced to me. I thought Sirius often behaved irrationally in book 5 (it was understandable, but still irrational) but I never really thought of him seeing Harry as James. I think one of the reasons why I found it hard to swallow was because Sirius has been around for three books now, but in the first two this issue never came up, and then in this book it sort of felt to me like an afterthought. What do you think? Tara From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:03:33 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 20:03:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <11673270073.20030806183907@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030807030333.17579.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75769 I must have missed a clue in the OOTP because I don't understand why some people think some is going to betray the Order. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bibphile at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:16:36 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:16:36 -0000 Subject: Andromeda dead? (was: Re: Pure Blood Parentage) In-Reply-To: <20030807020126.24200.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black > Why not? My whole reasoning for feeling that she could is that Sirius, although removed from the tapestry, is able to control Kreacher. Had Sirius had children they may have not been able to control him. My thinking is once you are removed your kin is completely erased. Thus, Tonks was never on the tapestry..because in its mind she was never born. > > ~Melanie > Even Sirius couldn't really control him. It was just a bit of illusion. Besides Andromeda wasn't part of the household he was bound to serve. He listened to Narcissa only because he wanted to. bibphile From AllieS426 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 03:05:42 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:05:42 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75771 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: >And Harry and Hermione are most certainly in love, but > neither realizes it. > Hmm, I don't know about that. I'm sure this has been debated endlessly already, but Harry most definitely knows how Ron feels. In GoF, when Ron and Hermione get in that shouting match over her going to the ball with Krum, and Hermione says "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does and not as a last resort!" Ron sputtered... "completely missed the point..." Harry... "but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point much better than Ron had." The closest Harry has ever come to showing interest in Hermione is when he says in OoP that he doesn't think she's ugly. :) Just out of curiosity- did it seem to everyone else that the Ron/Hermione (or even H/H) angle was VERY downplayed in OoP? I wondered why, when it seemed like it was so set up after GoF. Allie From arioth at peoplepc.com Thu Aug 7 03:11:29 2003 From: arioth at peoplepc.com (arioth1) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:11:29 -0000 Subject: Hints that Sirus would die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75772 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "supermonkee90" wrote: > In the 5th book I think there were signs that Sirius would die. One of > them was that Sirius lived at 12 Grimmauld Place. And Grim is the sign > of death (a dog). When Harry first walks into GP there is this line: "The other's hushed voices were giving Harry an odd feeling of foreboding; it was as though they had just entered the house of a dying person." (pg. 60 Am ed.) If that's not a hint I've never seen one. And of course Sirius was bitten by a silver "snuff" box! Arioth From thecurmudgeons at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:16:26 2003 From: thecurmudgeons at yahoo.com (RLC) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:16:26 -0000 Subject: Pure Blood Parentage/squibness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75773 I disagree with the Squib=Muggle theory. All I've seen in the books, Neville thought he was a squib, and Filch is a squib, so it is more like ADD, with varying degrees of squibness, not total lack of magic. Some people can't function well without medication, some do better with it, some can function without it. Everyone has different degrees of magical talent (Crouch was the most naturally powerful wizard Sirius knew, but that doesn't make him "more wizardly"). I think, since there is a question in the Wizgamot about Arabella Figg's ability to "see" Dementors, and Fitch can see the ghosts and live (albeit with difficulty) at Hogwarts, there is a wide range of "squibness" in the wizarding world. (I don't think Stan on the Knight Bus went to Hogwarts - I could be wrong.) Therefore, the True/False genetic link isn't as clear. It gets into those interesting "dominant-recessive" ideas that you get in graduate school. Intelligent people have periods of total idiocy, and non- intellectuals have periods of genius. Squibs may have very talented children. DNA isn't everything. From idcre at imap2.asu.edu Thu Aug 7 03:24:57 2003 From: idcre at imap2.asu.edu (backstagemystic) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:24:57 -0000 Subject: Harry Has The Right To Know The Whole Truth In-Reply-To: <20030806121503.96734.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75774 Buttercup wrote: >>4. Harry should be allowed membership into the Order and be able to attend their meetings. After all, the purposes of the organization is to stop Voldemort, and only Harry can do that. << -------------- Harry is NOT emotionally mature enough to be part of the Order (especially now, as he's overwhelmed with anger, guilt and grief). Plus, he has NOT mastered keeping Voldemort out of his mind. With Harry sitting there, one might as well hookup a remote cam and speaker to allow Voldie to eavesdrop on the meetings. Harry has talent and a good and brave heart, but he still lacks crucial knowledge and wisdom, and those simply cannot be *handed* to him by Dumbledore. Those will only come with time, experience (including hardships) and maturity under Dumbledore's patient guidance...and he's slowly getting there, but he's not there yet. Right now he acts too rashly and impulsively, and does not truly think things through enough to consider the broader picture or long- term consequences...he simply has not developed the scope. There are two scenes in OOP which are worth re-reading in regard to this. The first is on pp 476-477 (Am hard cover), where Sirius has to prevent the equally emotional and rash Weasley twins from charging off to St Mungo's to visit their Dad after he was attacked. Sirius had to knock sense into the both of them, to get them to trust the adults handling the situation. Here's a very relevant snippet: [Sirius]: "Your father knew what he was getting into, and he won't thank you for messing things up for the Order!" said Siruis angrily in his turn. "This is how it is - this is why you're not in the Order - you don't understand - there are things worth dying for!" When Sirius says " - you don't understand", he's NOT talking about information or knowledge the boys are lacking, he's talking about a deeper, mature and higher understanding (wisdom and common sense, if you will) for which the two boys are too young to grasp. The other relevant scene comes between Phineas and Harry (pp. 495-6 Am HC): [Phineas] "You know," said Phineas Nigellus, even more loudly than Harry, "this is precisely why I *loathed* being a teacher! Young people are so infernally convinced that they are absolutely right about everything. Has it not occurred to you, my poor puffed-up popinjay, that there might be an excellent reason why the headmaster of Hogwarts is not confiding every tiny detail of his plans to you? Have you never paused, while feeling hard-done-by, to note that following Dumbledore's orders has never yet led you into harm? No. No, like all young people, you are quite sure that you alone feel and think, you alone recognize danger, you alone are the only one clever enough to realize what the Dark Lord may be planning..." And contrary to some arguments, Harry WAS informed rather extensively, AND warned urgently about the need to take Occlumency seriously. He was informed that Voldemort, an expert at Legilimens, now knew about the psychic connection between himself and Harry, and deduced that it would work both ways. He was also informed that the normal barriers of time and space didn't seem to apply to that connection. And Snape confirmed Harry's OWN question when Harry asked if Voldie "...might try and make me do things?" Snape also warned Harry about handing an opponent emotional weapons. Harry didn't give it much thought or care, despite the urgency emphasized by Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, and Hermione (basically among those who are most important to Harry). Harry wanted the dreams to continue, so he didn't bother to practice...and he paid for it in the form of the terrible, and NEEDLESS, loss of his beloved godfather. It was a harsh and sobering lesson for Harry to realize how easily he'd been deceived by Voldemort, how his own rashness endangered himself, his classmates, and the members of the Order who had to rescue them. >> 5. Harry has the right to know why Dumbledore trusts Snape. What did Snape do to win him over?<< No, he doesn't. Just as he didn't have a right to violate Snape's memories in the Pensieve. Dumbledore already made it clear that it was a private matter between himself and Snape. If Harry truly respects Dumbledore, then he'll respect the fact that Dumbledore has clearly stated to him, twice, that he trusts Snape. I'm sure it will be revealed to Harry in due time. Perhaps Harry needs to learn to trust others as well. As Hermione stated (paraphrased): If we can't trust Dumbledore, we can't trust anyone. BM From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:25:49 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:25:49 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience (was Why Bella didn't disapparate/ OOP Az. effects) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > wrote: > > > Annemehr's two Knuts: > > First, why didn't Bellatrix apparate away? I think she knew full > > well (and intended?) that Harry followed her out of the Death > > Chamber. *** "snip" Furthermore, I think Dumbledore's anti- > apparation jinxes were applied to the DEs individually and so he'd > missed Bellatrix and obviously didn't get Voldemort either. > >*** "snip" > > Annemehr > > Talisman, folding away her copy of the Quibbler, and tucking the > Stubby Boardman clippings into her files, observes: > > Yes, I think it's quit clear that Bellatrix was luring Harry to a > tactically superior field of battle. > > But I wonder that you don't find it odd that Dumbledore "missed" > Bellatrix with his "apparation jinx," as you call it. Annemehr: Well, I called it "anti-apparation jinxes" (plural), thinking he was still dealing with DEs one at a time, but checking the end of Ch. 36, I see I was mistaken. Dumbledore tells Fudge he'd put the DEs under "an Anti-Disapparation Jinx" which is singular, meaning he did them all with one jinx. Looking in Ch. 36, just after Harry realises Sirius must be dead: "Dumbledore had most of the remaining Death Eaters grouped in the middle of the room, seemingly immobilized by invisible ropes. Mad- Eye Moody had crawled across the room to where Tonks lay and was attempting to revive her. Behind the dais there were still flashes of light, grunts, and cries -- Kingsley had run forward to continue Sirius's duel with Bellatrix. [here is half a page of Neville, Harry and Lupin talking, then:] There was a loud bang and a yell form behind the dais. Harry saw Kingsley, yelling in pain, hit the ground. Bellatrix Lestrange tuned tail and ran as Dumbledore whipped around. He aimed a spell at her but she deflected it. She was halfway up the steps now --" [here Harry chases her up to the Atrium]. Talisman: > > Implausibly odd, in fact, that Dumbledore: 1) managed to subdue > every DE but Bellatrix, when she was battling Sirius, 2) that he > was "unable" to stop her, not just with the first deflected spell, > but as she trotted up the rest of the stairs, and 3)that it took > Dumbledore so long to show up in the Atrium, when he was obviously > watching Bellatrix leave and Harry give chase. Annemehr: You've convinced me, about 99 per cent. Except, what was Dumbledore occupied with, when he whipped around to aim a spell at Bellatrix? Up until now, I had always pictured Bellatrix running out during the heat of battle, and Dumbledore's attention divided between her and whatever DEs he was still fighting. But she does seem to be the only one not yet immobilised, so how *could* Dumbledore have failed to stop her if he really wanted to, given how we see him battle later? Talisman: > Dumbledore is nobody's fool. You cannot read his excuses and > compare them to what you actually know from the texts without > realizing that he is lying a great deal of the time. Annemehr: Er, lying, actually? Well, he did say he was going to tell Harry "everything," and he certainly did not, but mostly I see him doling out the truth in tiny doses. I do believe he wishes he had handled Harry differently, though, as he said. I think he does honestly take part of the blame for Harry's actions and Sirius' death upon himself -- for not taking peoples' strong feelings enough into account. After all, he can lay plans, but those plans depend on real live people who will not always act as he'd expect. Talisman: > > No, Dumbledore knows--more than we do--what is going on and he is > controlling the action to a great extent. > For now let me just remind you that, in the June 2003 Albert Hall > interview, JK calls Dumbledore "a very wise man" who has to > both "step back" to allow Harry to learn some hard lessons, and, she > agrees with Stephen Frye, "push the little birds from the nest." > > Therefore, the author comprehends Dumbledore to act both omissively > and comissively--with intention--to prepare Harry for "what is to > come." She does not say, "well he's getting older you know, > screwing up a bit . . ." > > Fair warning to the faint-hearted, as soon as the snares of this > world give me time, I will launch the good ship, NO DIPP(Not > Omniscient, Dumbledore IS Preternaturally Prescient), into TBAY, and > defend her with good canon. > > Talisman, who wonders if Johnny Depp would lend her some "Capt. Jack > Sparrow togs" for the trip. Annemehr: Captain Sparrow's "effects" eh? If I can find so much as a pistol with one shot to add to the canon, I may be asking for permission to come aboard! The passage that screams to me that Dumbledore means business: "I cared about you too much," said Dumbledore simply. "I cared more for your happiness than your knowing the truth, more for your peace of mind than my plan, more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed." Dumbledore's got a plan to save untold innocent lives, and it is more important than the life of one individual, or that individual's happiness. Annemehr still withholding judgment on whether this all turns out entirely the way Dumbledore thinks From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:33:57 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:33:57 -0000 Subject: Myrtle an Evans? (was: Is Lily Voldemort daughter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75776 > > Bonnie wrote: > It's an interesting theory, but I do have one major problem with > it that I can't get around, sorry. I don't think that JKR would write > Myrtle taking a romantic fancy to Harry if she were his aunt, at > least I hope she wouldn't. > Personal preferences aside though, I'm not sure where it says that > Myrtle was a muggle-born. I thought she was at least a halfblood, > because I thought she was in Slytherin. > > -Bonnie According to Malfoy Myrtle was muggle born. He doesn't mention her name but in CoS he says that "a Mudblood *died*" (p 223, US paperback) when the chamber was opened during Riddle's time. Not that Malfoy is the greatest source ever, but it's all I've got. I don't think any mention is made as to which house Myrtle was in. KathyK From dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:41:01 2003 From: dumbledore11214 at yahoo.com (dumbledore11214) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:41:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Has The Right To Know The Whole Truth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "backstagemystic" wrote: > Buttercup wrote: > >>4. Harry should be allowed membership into the Order > and be able to attend their meetings. After all, the > purposes of the organization is to stop Voldemort, and > only Harry can do that. << > -------------- > > Harry is NOT emotionally mature enough to be part of the Order > (especially now, as he's overwhelmed with anger, guilt and grief). > > Plus, he has NOT mastered keeping Voldemort out of his mind. With > Harry sitting there, one might as well hookup a remote cam and > speaker to allow Voldie to eavesdrop on the meetings. > > Harry has talent and a good and brave heart, but he still lacks > crucial knowledge and wisdom, and those simply cannot be *handed* to > him by Dumbledore. > > Those will only come with time, experience (including hardships) and > maturity under Dumbledore's patient guidance...and he's slowly > getting there, but he's not there yet. > > Right now he acts too rashly and impulsively, and does not truly > think things through enough to consider the broader picture or long- > term consequences...he simply has not developed the scope. > > There are two scenes in OOP which are worth re-reading in regard to > this. > > The first is on pp 476-477 (Am hard cover), where Sirius has to > prevent the equally emotional and rash Weasley twins from charging > off to St Mungo's to visit their Dad after he was attacked. Sirius > had to knock sense into the both of them, to get them to trust the > adults handling the situation. Here's a very relevant snippet: > > [Sirius]: "Your father knew what he was getting into, and he won't > thank you for messing things up for the Order!" said Siruis angrily > in his turn. "This is how it is - this is why you're not in the > Order - you don't understand - there are things worth dying for!" > > When Sirius says " - you don't understand", he's NOT talking about > information or knowledge the boys are lacking, he's talking about a > deeper, mature and higher understanding (wisdom and common sense, if > you will) for which the two boys are too young to grasp. > > The other relevant scene comes between Phineas and Harry (pp. 495-6 > Am HC): > > [Phineas] "You know," said Phineas Nigellus, even more loudly than > Harry, "this is precisely why I *loathed* being a teacher! Young > people are so infernally convinced that they are absolutely right > about everything. Has it not occurred to you, my poor puffed-up > popinjay, that there might be an excellent reason why the headmaster > of Hogwarts is not confiding every tiny detail of his plans to you? > Have you never paused, while feeling hard-done-by, to note that > following Dumbledore's orders has never yet led you into harm? No. > No, like all young people, you are quite sure that you alone feel and > think, you alone recognize danger, you alone are the only one clever > enough to realize what the Dark Lord may be planning..." > > And contrary to some arguments, Harry WAS informed rather > extensively, AND warned urgently about the need to take Occlumency > seriously. > > He was informed that Voldemort, an expert at Legilimens, now knew > about the psychic connection between himself and Harry, and deduced > that it would work both ways. He was also informed that the normal > barriers of time and space didn't seem to apply to that connection. > > And Snape confirmed Harry's OWN question when Harry asked if > Voldie "...might try and make me do things?" > > Snape also warned Harry about handing an opponent emotional weapons. > > Harry didn't give it much thought or care, despite the urgency > emphasized by Dumbledore, Sirius, Lupin, and Hermione (basically > among those who are most important to Harry). > > Harry wanted the dreams to continue, so he didn't bother to > practice...and he paid for it in the form of the terrible, and > NEEDLESS, loss of his beloved godfather. > > It was a harsh and sobering lesson for Harry to realize how easily > he'd been deceived by Voldemort, how his own rashness endangered > himself, his classmates, and the members of the Order who had to > rescue them. > > >> > 5. Harry has the right to know why Dumbledore trusts > Snape. What did Snape do to win him over?<< > > No, he doesn't. Just as he didn't have a right to violate Snape's > memories in the Pensieve. Dumbledore already made it clear that it > was a private matter between himself and Snape. > > If Harry truly respects Dumbledore, then he'll respect the fact that > Dumbledore has clearly stated to him, twice, that he trusts Snape. > > I'm sure it will be revealed to Harry in due time. > > Perhaps Harry needs to learn to trust others as well. > > As Hermione stated (paraphrased): If we can't trust Dumbledore, we > can't trust anyone. > > BM Your post was beatifully written, but allow me VERY strongly disagree with some parts of it. Yes, Harry may not be emotionally mature enough to be the part of the Order, although I think that it only caused by him wanting revenge for Sirius death and will end eventually. NO, I don't think Harry was informed even remotely close to what he should have been informed of. I will try not to start my long rant about Dumbledore, because I may not be able to stop. :o) Snape would not needed to give Harry hints of why he needs to study Occlumency, if Dumbledore bothered to tell him in the benginning of this year that Voldemort may try to trick him to go to MoM. I may understand why he did not tell Harry earlier, but nothing in my mind justifies not telling Harry at the beginning of the year. Dumbledore told him at the end of the year anyway, so what is the difference? No matter what Pinneas told Harry, Dumbledore's stupidity caused hima great deal of harm and was mainly ( in my opinion, of course) cause of Sirius' supposed death (DENIAL, DENIAL :o)) I absolutely agree with you though about Sirius' talk to twins, but something tells me that all the young generation will mature very quickly in book 6. So, should Harry be in the Order? Yes, in my opinion,if he wants to, even if he is not quite ready yet, because Dumbledore owes him that much. Alla From tish9774 at grics.net Thu Aug 7 03:48:00 2003 From: tish9774 at grics.net (tish ) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:48:00 -0000 Subject: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? In-Reply-To: <20030807030044.46225.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > --- RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > > We learned that Lucius Malfoy is 41 in OotP, and JKR > > said in an interview that > > Lupin (or Sirius, whatever, since they were in the > > same year anyway) was 35 or > > 36 in PoA, making them 37 or 38 in OotP... > >I remember reading some where in OOtP that the "gang" took their OWLs (snapes memory) 20 years ago. That would have made James and Lily about 20 when they had Harry. That would make them 35 now. I think we need to think of their ages the same way we do Harry's. If Harry was born in 1980 (as I think the Lexicon states) then even though by our calendar he is 23, he is still 15. The same goes for Lupin. If he was 35 in PoA (which couldn't be if I am right about the part in OOP) then he would only be 37 now. Tish From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:55:41 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:55:41 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: <20030806183915.59922.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75779 Buttercup: > > Nope! I agree. Harry's going to be in Potions NEWT > level. With Snape's absense he felt more relaxed and > thought he "might not have achieved a good grade but > that he had, with luck, avoided a fail." I know Snape > said that he only accepts "O's," but I don't think > he'll be teaching Potions in Book 6. A new Potions > teacher with lower standards would accept Harry into > the NEWT. I believe Snape'll be teaching DADA. With JKR, I never can tell, but I don't think it's really likely that Snape could wind up teaching DADA. Dumbledore said that Snape failed to put his hatred for James aside when trying to teach Harry Occlumency, so I think he may worry that Snape would fail to put other feelings aside as a DADA professor. On the other hand, I think it would be so much fun to read. If it's NEWT level, Snape would have to be teaching them to defend themselves in something approaching a real duel. What I wouldn't give to see Harry vs. Snape! Annemehr kind of hoping we'll see that in any case... From huntleyl at mssm.org Thu Aug 7 03:57:45 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:57:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Firenze (was: Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort) References: Message-ID: <05b701c35c98$0f6b23d0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 75780 Les: >Are there female centaurs? Dan: >There'd probably have to be. I don't see why not. We >just haven't seen any. This has actually been bothering me for awhile. I've come up with three possibilities. 1) The centaurs are tribal (like the merpeople) and have a very strict division between the sexes. That is, they are most likely highly patriarchal and prefer to keep their womenfolk at home (wherever that is). While the studs are out hunting, etc., the "mares" stay home and tend the young/cook/clean/whatever. 2) There *are* species in traditional mythology which simply *have* no females (such as minotaurs). The assumption here being either that they must go after human women or that they do not reproduce in the normal way (that is, they are "made"). 3) There are actually two types of herds that wild (or, more accurately, feral) horses form. The first is a group of mares and their foals controlled by a dominate stallion. When the colts from these groups reach a certain age, however, they are ousted from the herd. Due to their youth and inexperience, plus the general shortage of mares (not every stallion can have a large band -- there's simply not enough women to go around), they can't just start a new family of their own. However, horses are very social animals and (for the most part) *need* a herd to survive. So, these young males form "bachelor" herds. Right now, I'm leaning toward option (3). However, each of these possibilities has its drawbacks. 1) IF we are to believe that they behave at all like horses, the idea that they have some sort of "home-base" where they keep all their females seems highly unlikely. Horses are "roamers" and herds generally keep on the move. However, now that I think about it, the *reason* why herds do this is that otherwise they would quickly run out of grass to graze on. Since centaurs are obviously hunter/gatherers, perhaps this is not an issue. 2) Sort of an icky place for JKR to go, esp. in light of Pavarti and Lavender's crushes. ^_~ 3) All of the centaurs that we've met seem too mature to be in a "bachelor" herd. However, this could explain the obvious antagonism and jostling for position that (most) of them engage in. Another problem with this theory is that we don't really know the size of the Forbidden Forest -- is it large enough to house a number of traditional herds and at least one bachelor herd? If the centaurs do roam like normal horses, this would mean the Forest would have to be *very* large, indeed. Where is Hogwarts, anyway? Scotland? Is there room for a massive forest full of magical creatures to go unnoticed in Scotland? Maybe I'm learning more toward option (2), now. Blergh. Laura (thinking that *proper* horses would never live in a forest, anyway.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From penumbra10 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 04:04:59 2003 From: penumbra10 at yahoo.com (Judy) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 04:04:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75781 "feetmadeofclay" wrote: "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: > > Harry has had virtually no experience with girls and doesn't really > > know how to behave appropriately. > > Ummm... Is he not friends with Hermione? He knows how to talk to > girls. Just talk to them like he does Hermione, Angelina, Katie or > even Ginny. Be nice and get to know her. > > My problem is that Harry showed little to no interest in Cho as a > person. She was a shiny bauble to him. Something to be possessed > when it amused him. He's now beyond that I suppose. But I can't > praise what that actually means in the context of storytelling. The > moral implications are disturbing. > > I am not saying every kid will behave perfectly. I am saying that > Rowling makes things very easy on us. When Harry behaves badly he > gets called on it. It is hilarious but also a strong message - TREAT > GIRLS WELL. But for some inexplicable reason this never applied to > Cho. She was there for Harry when he wanted her and now that he > doesn't that is fine too. Doesn't matter than he never really > treated her as a person. > > Sad really. Now, me, This criticism is a bit harsh, don't you think? Harry was sincerely lost with a girl he fancied. He just wanted to be with her. The text tells us he felt stupid and clumsy and couldn't think of anything to say. I teach (this age group) and it is quite surprising to see how tongue-tied and uncoordinated boys get when they are around girls they like. As for treating Cho like a bauble--please cut the kid some slack. This was his very first crush, and he is just a totally inexperienced boy, not a thirty-year-old man who has learned to discern between 'beautiful packaging' and 'beautiful content.' As for the other girls he is around, Hermione is his friend of five years, there is a comfort level. If you recall, he tried to talk quidditch and was doing quite well until the gang of Slytherin girls threw him off his game. As for him wanting to 'possess her,' I think your're thinking Ron, here. Cho was the one who came at Harry, kissed him and led him into that 'snog-shack' where she and Cediruc used to go. How insensitive can you get? She is a full year older with dating experience. It could be argued that she has no perceptions to see that Harry is quite nervous. Then, she wants to use their first date to pump him for information about Cedric. So we might ask, who is using whom? Judy From sngoing at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 04:45:01 2003 From: sngoing at yahoo.com (Steven) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 04:45:01 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Buttercup: > > > > Nope! I agree. Harry's going to be in Potions NEWT > > level... I don't think the new DADA teacher will be Snape. I do think that Harry did better in potions than he thought. He was more relaxed and seemed to doing better than many others. I expect he got that outstanding which would stick very nicely in Snape's craw. I expect that there will be a new DADA teacher or maybe Lupin will be revisited. With his victory over Fudge, Dumbledore can do pretty much what he wants in that regard. Even so, I want Harry to keep the DA going. He is going to need an army he can count on, if he is going to win. The prophesy pretty insures that he will have his hands full. As for grades, I expect Harry to have gotten outstanding in Transfiguration, Potions, Charms, DADA, and Herbology. I expect passes in History of Magic, Astronomy and Diviation. Diviation is in such disrepute, I expect the standards to be pretty low. From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 04:55:22 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 04:55:22 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - my 'we are the world' theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75783 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > I think you have a lot of valid points. You have more detail, but > there was a thread a few weeks ago that talked about some of this. > > In Message 70358 I wrote: How's this for a theory: the powers > that "the Dark Lord knows not" could involve Harry's leadership and > ability to make friends who will willingly fight for/with him (as > opposed to out of fear like LV's supporters). IMO that scene on the > Hogwarts Express at the end, where a bunch of DA members zap D/C/G > before they could attack Harry will appear significant later on. > Most of the DA's were names in the background before, but now they > are becoming more prominent. The prophesy refers to "the one," but I > think there will be more people involved supporting him ? not just > in a large fight, but in some way that combines their powers to make > them even stronger. As in the sum is more than... > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Sorry i missed that post. I'm still new and it's hard for me to keep up with all the messages on the board. I like this idea of all coming together as one because I'm hoping this means harry will have a chance of surviving past book seven. -QoE From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:03:55 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:03:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75784 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tara" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was just wondering what you thought about Sirius seeming to confuse Harry > for James in book 5. To be honest, if JKR hadn't explicitly had other > characters mention it, I never would have picked up on that, and even though > it was stated in the book, the idea felt a little bit forced to me. I > thought Sirius often behaved irrationally in book 5 (it was understandable, > but still irrational) but I never really thought of him seeing Harry as > James. I think one of the reasons why I found it hard to swallow was > because Sirius has been around for three books now, but in the first two > this issue never came up, and then in this book it sort of felt to me like > an afterthought. > > What do you think? > > Tara Everyone knows Harry looks like James. It would be impossible for those that knew James to look at Harry and not see his father. At least, when they first meet him. It must be especially difficult for Sirius not to see his best friend when he looks at his godson. Even though James died many years ago, to Sirius it is probably still freshest because of his time in Azkaban. He had the dementors there to constantly remind him of how he cost his best friend his life. Azkaban also lost Sirius a large chunk of his own life. He has not had the same time and space to adjust to what happened as, say James' other good friend, Lupin. I can see in OoP Sirius confusing Harry with his father. A combination of the way Harry looks and wishful thinking causes him to mix the two up a bit. He especially shows he does this when he was disappointed that Harry felt Sirius shouldn't risk meeting Harry in Hogsmeade and Sirius says, "You're less like your father than I thought" (305, US) and was quite disappointed by this. So he was obviously hoping for his best friend and got Harry instead. However, I think Sirius was also extremely disappointed that he wouldn't be getting out of the house and isn't able to do anything for Harry. While Sirius did confuse Harry with James a little bit, I did not see him doing it to the extent that the characters in OOP seemed to believe he did. That particular comment to Harry was harsh and demonstrated that Sirius did mix them up, but as I said, I think it was a combination of wanting James and wanting to get out and be useful. As for this trait of Sirius' not showing up in the first two books, I don't think it was an issue for two reasons mainly: 1. Sirius is never as prevalent in PoA and GoF as he is in OoP. Sirius was a considered an evil mass murderer through most of PoA. When he does meet Harry, he does compare him to James, telling him he flies as well as his father. But their meeting was quite short and Sirius was off on the run, becoming a supporting character in Harry's life. I don't have GoF on my mind as clearly, but Sirius is only there for bits and pieces of Harry's life through letters, a chat at the fire, in Hogsmeade, and then briefly in Dumbledore's office and in the Hospital wing. Events dictated that the two did not get to interact much or talk about anything other than the triwizard tournament and Voldemort. Sirius played the concerned godfather only throughout GoF. He did not interact as much with Harry or other characters in the previous two books as he did in OoP. 2. OoP was the first time Harry and Sirius got to spend any sort of real time together, and were able to get to know one another better. And we readers were able to get to know Sirius better. It was more likely that Sirius would compare Harry to James in person rather than through letters or conversations about Death Eaters. Not to be repetetive, but I hope I made a little sense. If not, well, I wrote a quite a bit. There's bound to be something useful in there. Right? *crickets chirp in the silence* Right? KathyK (feeling a little wacky) From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:10:36 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:10:36 -0000 Subject: The prophecy - my 'we are the world' theory... even Snape In-Reply-To: <20030805020452.26987.qmail@web80501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75785 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Sally Unchester wrote: > ok QoE, > You just put an idea in my head. Remember as children when all of us were taught there were selfish people and selfless people? The selfish people seemed to not get anywhere in the world but the selfless always got anywhere they wanted to in the world. So here's my theory: JKR purpsoefully gives us characters such as Harry,Ron,Hermione,Dumbledore,Hagrid et al. who are all selfless and fight their battles the "pure way". They don't like to fight with swords,fists,or anything but they do when something stands in there way. The selfish people want to fight with fists and swords because nothing is in their way and it only matters what they want not what others feel or want. It's good that you notice that Harry's power that Voldemort doesn't have is bringing people together. As for Harry and Snape, I believe Snape will be the one saving him in the end since we will have no Dumbledore (or at least that is what many people believes,who knows maybe JKR will throw us off and keep DD > alive?) The last few years at Hogwarts are the teenage years for the trio so there are going to flying hormones here and there...I believe you are right with the battle within himself, he will have to decide if he would like to be selfish like Voldemort and the DEs or if he wants to stay selfless. I believe personally that Neville's true heroism is going to show throughout the last three books (yes,I said three,didn't anyone notice how he became even MORE brave in book five?) Mrs.Dursley will acknowledge her sister but it'll be a "You blink and you miss it" deal. She actually already does acknowledge her in other books just not say that she loves her or anything like that, I would like her to say that she did love her sister at one point,that would be more special to me. Any way,thats my rant for the moment. Feel free to disagree or agree if you chose,it's a free country ;). > > -Sally I agree with most of what you said, even the part about Dumbledore which I don't want to believe but I can definitely see it happening (book 7 not 6 hopefully). The thing I'm still wondering about is Snape & Harry's future relationship. Snape has saved Harry's life before and that hasn't changed his opinion of Harry one bit (or Harry's opinion of Snape for that matter). I realize that Snape is a pretty unlikeable personality but he also comes across as very useful and responsible - and Harry though quite likeable can be very disrespectful when it comes to Snape. I don't think the saving of lives is enough to cut through this amount of dislike. I think they have to find some kind of common ground and I can't figure out what that could possibly be. Something in Snapes past? Who knows. I don't see them becoming like family or drinking buddies in the future but I do hope they can end some of the hostility. If Snape didn't keep some of his nastiness he would cease to be the Snape I LOVE to hate so much. -QoE From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 05:26:37 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:26:37 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's going to betray the Order? Message-ID: <410-2200384752637627@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75786 acoteucla wrote: "I think most people would agree that there is going to be a major betrayal (most likely in book 7). Assumedly it will be someone we trust enough that it will be a huge shock. I'm hoping to stimulate some discussion on who it will be. Here are my thoughts on the various suspects. Make sure to mention any likely suspects I might have missed." "The other Weasleys: I've personally seen no evidence that any of the other Weasley's might turn spy. But speak up if you're in favor of ESE!Molly, or something like that." Now me (Wendy): While ESE!Lupin is my first choice for betrayer of the Order, I also do have a bit of an Evil!Molly thing festering in my brain. Well, maybe Evil! isn't the right word - more of a Betrayer!Molly. I don't think Molly is or ever was "evil," and I don't even think she's come to a "turning point" yet (meaning in Harry's 5th year/OoP time-line). But the scene with her Boggart (OoP, The Woes of Mrs. Weasley chapter) really brought home just how much she (poentially) has to lose in the upcoming war: (OoP, page 176, US hardcover): "I see them d-d-dead all the time!" Mrs. Weasley moaned into his [Lupin's] shoulder. "All the t-t-time! I d-d-dream about it . . ." (And then on page 177): I'm just s-s-so worried," she said, tears spilling out of her eyes again. "Half the f-f-family's in the Order, it'll b-b-be a miracle if we all come through this . . . " Molly is scared, and she's got good reason to be. A few lines later, Lupin reassures her by telling her the Order is better prepared this time, but if I were Molly, frankly, that wouldn't make me feel better AT ALL. Think about the death toll in the last war - when Moody shows Harry that photo, it is really disturbing to hear just how many Order members were killed. Why in the world should anyone think it will be any better this time, regardless of Lupin's reassuring words? Sure, it's nice to hope that things will be better, but it's the beginning of a war and it is really impossible to guess just what is going to happen (unless you're JKR, anyhow ). And the odds for the Weasleys are actually worse, IMO, than half; Molly, Arthur, Charlie and Bill are active members of the Order. But I assume George and Fred will be joining the Order now that they are of age and no longer at Hogwarts. Ron, as Harry's best friend, is probably the Weasley with the biggest target on his forehead. Oh, and wasn't Ginny there for that battle at the Minstry, too? (That's a rhetorical question ). So, Molly has solid, tangible reasons to worry about pretty much every member of her family, with the exception of Percy. Depending on what happens with him in the future, he may or may not be a particular target for Voldemort, and in a war no one is safe, so she might as well worry about him with the rest of them. So . . . how to say this without making it sound like I hate Molly, or that I'm making wild unfounded speculations as an excuse to have something to post ? . . . I don't think Molly is evil. But I'm very afraid that she may decide, out of desperation and fear, to go to Voldemort and make a deal: "I'll tell you what you want to know, and you promise not to kill any of my kids." I like Molly, really I do, and can empathise with her - as a mother myself, there are a few areas in which I have Molly-esque fears for my child. We saw in OoP that she can be unreasonable and even ruthless when it comes to protecting her "family." I'm thinking specifically of how she fought with Sirius over who was the better "parent" for Harry. She was convinced that she knew what was best for Harry, and she wasn't about to back down. This seems to be the way she goes about parenting - Molly knows best, and she's not quiet about it. Put this together with the fact that she is TERRIFIED, and rightly so, and I see a real possibility that she might do something drastic to protect her family. I personally think it is very unlikely that all the Weasleys will survive this war. If I were Molly, and I were afraid for my loved ones, I know it would cross my mind that perhaps I could do something to save them - something like going to Voldemort and making that deal. I'm not saying I would do that (I like to believe that I would never be capable of that sort of betrayal). But the question is: is Molly capable of it? Ages ago (long before OoP), I was writing a post about Evil!McGonagall, and I noted that, at the end of GoF, Dumbledore sends McG out of the room before "outing" Sirius and sending Snape on his "mission." But Molly was in the room for both those things. At the time, I made a joke about hoping that Molly doesn't turn out to be the evil one. Well, after reading OoP, the idea doesn't seem so funny - nor so outlandish - to me as it did before. Also, if there is some truth to the "Missing Weasley" theory - that the Weasleys lost a child in the first war - that would certainly give Molly *far* more motivation to do anything possible to prevent any further harm from coming to her family. The one argument against Betrayer!Molly (other than simply believing in Molly's innate goodness) is that I don't see her being willing to betray Harry. I don't think she would ever give him to Voldemort - she considers him to be one of "her own." However, if she thought there was any way she could betray the Order while saving her family and Harry, I *know* she would consider it. Who wouldn't *consider* it? Whether or not she'll actually *do* it? Well, we'll just have to wait and see, won't we? :-) Wendy From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:30:48 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:30:48 -0000 Subject: Harry Has The Right To Know The Whole Truth In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75787 Buttercup wrote: 4. Harry should be allowed membership into the Order and be able to attend their meetings. After all, the purposes of the organization is to stop Voldemort, and only Harry can do that. << ===================================================================== "backstagemystic" wrote: Harry is NOT emotionally mature enough to be part of the Order (especially now, as he's overwhelmed with anger, guilt and grief). Plus, he has NOT mastered keeping Voldemort out of his mind. With Harry sitting there, one might as well hookup a remote cam and speaker to allow Voldie to eavesdrop on the meetings. ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; To be honest, unless some think that Harry should NEVER be in the OotP, and seeing he only has 2 years to "mature emotionally" enough, it is a now or never kind of thing. While I will agree that Harry might not need to join the OotP in the next book, he sorta needs to be kept in the loop a lot better in the next 2 books. Or, Potterworld needs to hope and pray the prophecy does NOT include the boy who lives at #4 Prievet drive. Because if he is told as much (or as little) in the next 2 books, (the very LAST 2 books), he will most certianly get himself killed from ignorance. Ignorance that comes from not being told the truth, and being told only half truths when he is told the truth. To be left to fill in the blanks himself with the answer he comes up with. This is what Harry gets throughout Ootp, mostly half truths, and we all know how well that turned out. From the "there is nothing in MoM for you Potter", to "you need to learn occlumency because you and V are.... connected". If someone, or anyone as far as that goes, would have sat Harry down and told him ALL the truth, while the book would not have been as good, Harry at least would have been able to understand COMPLEATLY what was going on. Not just what he thought was going on, or what he was assumeing was going on, but what exactly was going on. Fred Waldrop From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:31:21 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:31:21 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tara" wrote: > e wrote: > > My impression of Snape is that he *doesn't* really hate Harry. Remember > how Mrs. Figg said she purposely tried to be boring so that Harry would hate > going there, and therefore be sent to her house regularly. What if Snape > works hard to make Harry hate him so that Draco Malfoy can report home to > his DE family that Snape is definitely *not* on Harry Potter's side? > > Me: > That's an interesting thought that I'd never considered... but I like it. > It doesn't have to mean that he likes Harry all that much, just that he > doesn't hate him as much as he pretends to. :) And it's something I could > see him doing for sure... it also kind of explains how Dumbledore has let > Snape's prejudice towards Harry continue unchallenged for 5 years. Surely > Dumbledore and the other teachers haven't been completely blind towards the > animosity that Snape shows Harry. > > Tara I think this idea is interesting but I think It's too socially advanced for Snape. Snape is a gifted wizard but he seems pretty antisocial to me. I think Harry represents all the things he is not, like his father did, and I think that's what may fuel (hate, i think, is to strong) his dislike for Harry. I do think that Snape does believe by being harsh with Harry he is - not teaching him but more - putting him in his place. I think the teachers are very aware of Snape's feelings about Potter but think that it's nothing that they can't keep control over. Snape is a valuable teacher and a valuable ally, and after dealing with Voldy almost once a year I think all of Hogwarts staff believes Harry is quite capable of handling one mean teacher (it's not as if they'd let him completely flunk or expel him.) -QoE From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:38:44 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:38:44 -0000 Subject: Harry in the Order? (was: Re: Harry Has The Right To Know The Whole Truth) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75789 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dumbledore11214" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "backstagemystic" > wrote: > > Buttercup wrote: > > >>4. Harry should be allowed membership into the Order > > and be able to attend their meetings. After all, the > > purposes of the organization is to stop Voldemort, and > > only Harry can do that. << > > -------------- > > > > Harry is NOT emotionally mature enough to be part of the Order > > (especially now, as he's overwhelmed with anger, guilt and grief). > > > > Plus, he has NOT mastered keeping Voldemort out of his mind. With > > Harry sitting there, one might as well hookup a remote cam and > > speaker to allow Voldie to eavesdrop on the meetings. > > > > Harry has talent and a good and brave heart, but he still lacks > > crucial knowledge and wisdom, and those simply cannot be *handed* > to > > him by Dumbledore. > > > > Those will only come with time, experience (including hardships) > and > > maturity under Dumbledore's patient guidance...and he's slowly > > getting there, but he's not there yet. > > > > Right now he acts too rashly and impulsively, and does not truly > > think things through enough to consider the broader picture or long- > > term consequences...he simply has not developed the scope. > > > > There are two scenes in OOP which are worth re-reading in regard to > > this. > > > > The first is on pp 476-477 (Am hard cover), where Sirius has to > > prevent the equally emotional and rash Weasley twins from charging > > off to St Mungo's to visit their Dad after he was attacked. Sirius > > had to knock sense into the both of them, to get them to trust the > > adults handling the situation. Here's a very relevant snippet: > > > > [Sirius]: "Your father knew what he was getting into, and he won't > > thank you for messing things up for the Order!" said Siruis angrily > > in his turn. "This is how it is - this is why you're not in the > > Order - you don't understand - there are things worth dying for!" > > > > When Sirius says " - you don't understand", he's NOT talking about > > information or knowledge the boys are lacking, he's talking about a > > deeper, mature and higher understanding (wisdom and common sense, > if > > you will) for which the two boys are too young to grasp. > > > > The other relevant scene comes between Phineas and Harry (pp. 495- 6 > > Am HC): > > > > [Phineas] "You know," said Phineas Nigellus, even more loudly than > > Harry, "this is precisely why I *loathed* being a teacher! Young > > people are so infernally convinced that they are absolutely right > > about everything. Has it not occurred to you, my poor puffed-up > > popinjay, that there might be an excellent reason why the > headmaster > > of Hogwarts is not confiding every tiny detail of his plans to > you? > > Have you never paused, while feeling hard-done-by, to note that > > following Dumbledore's orders has never yet led you into harm? > No. > > No, like all young people, you are quite sure that you alone feel > and > > think, you alone recognize danger, you alone are the only one > clever > > enough to realize what the Dark Lord may be planning..." > > > > And contrary to some arguments, Harry WAS informed rather > > extensively, AND warned urgently about the need to take Occlumency > > seriously. < giant snip of a great post> > > BM > > > Your post was beatifully written, but allow me VERY strongly disagree > with some parts of it. > > Yes, Harry may not be emotionally mature enough to be the part of the > Order, although I think that it only caused by him wanting revenge > for Sirius death and will end eventually. > > NO, I don't think Harry was informed even remotely close to what he > should have been informed of. > > I will try not to start my long rant about Dumbledore, because I may > not be able to stop. :o) > > Snape would not needed to give Harry hints of why he needs to study > Occlumency, if Dumbledore bothered to tell him in the benginning of > this year that Voldemort may try to trick him to go to MoM. I may > understand why he did not tell Harry earlier, but nothing in my mind > justifies not telling Harry at the beginning of the year. > > Dumbledore told him at the end of the year anyway, so what is the > difference? > > No matter what Pinneas told Harry, Dumbledore's stupidity caused hima > great deal of harm and was mainly ( in my opinion, of course) cause > of Sirius' supposed death (DENIAL, DENIAL :o)) > > I absolutely agree with you though about Sirius' talk to twins, but > something tells me that all the young generation will mature very > quickly in book 6. > > So, should Harry be in the Order? Yes, in my opinion,if he wants to, > even if he is not quite ready yet, because Dumbledore owes him that > much. > > Alla Harry should not be allowed in the Order simply because Dumbledore owes him. While I agree that Dumbledore should have told Harry earlier what was going on, this mistake is no reason to endanger the rest of the Order. Dumbledore should have told him the truth and he should have made *sure* Harry learned Occlumency from either Snape or himself. Since he failed to to this, Harry should not be allowed in the Order until he learns how to block Voldemort from his mind properly. Otherwise, Harry's presence jeopardizes the members and whatever plans they have in the works that Harry has knowledge of. I don't dispute that Dumbledore's made errors. I don't dispute that Harry belongs in the Order. But he cannot be allowed in until Voldemort no longer has access to Harry, no matter what Dumbledore has told or not told Harry. It's too dangerous for everyone else. KathyK From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:38:55 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:38:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > >And Harry and Hermione are most certainly in love, but > > neither realizes it. > > > > Hmm, I don't know about that. I'm sure this has been debated > endlessly already, but Harry most definitely knows how Ron feels. In > GoF, when Ron and Hermione get in that shouting match over her going > to the ball with Krum, and Hermione says > "Next time there's a ball, ask me before someone else does and not > as a last resort!" > Ron sputtered... "completely missed the point..." > Harry... "but he somehow thought that Hermione had gotten the point > much better than Ron had." > The closest Harry has ever come to showing interest in Hermione is > when he says in OoP that he doesn't think she's ugly. :) > Just out of curiosity- did it seem to everyone else that the > Ron/Hermione (or even H/H) angle was VERY downplayed in OoP? I > wondered why, when it seemed like it was so set up after GoF. > > Allie I think the reason that Ron/Hermione angle was so downplayed was because Harry spent most of the book brooding alone and lashing out at everyone. A lot of heavy emotional stuff went on for Harry and I think he wouldn't care to notice anything between Hermione and Ron - He barely payed attention to his own date. -QoE From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:46:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:46:11 -0000 Subject: book 5 flub In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunachapter10" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > > I just was looking at the american cover of OoP and realized that > > Harry had his wand in his left hand. ... (Harry) was right handed. > > Garrett > Lunachapter10: > > Good catch, thanks for pointing that out! Your post made me look at > all the covers, and -- I guess the artist didn't read the first book > ...edited... bboy_mn: I think the artist new that Harry is right handed but for artistic purposes she drew the picture with him left handed. If he were shown right handed, you wouldn't be able to see the wand. So, it was done this way because it functioned better visually/artistically. bboy_mn From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 05:47:14 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:47:14 -0000 Subject: How Old Are Hagrid/Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75792 On the subject of age, I just realized how old (I'm a little slow) Hagrid and Dumbledore are supposed to be. I think wizards have a longer life than we muggles but I never thoought of Hagrid as elderly (which he is acourding to CoS), and does anyone know how old Dumbledore is (has he passed the century mark or what)? -QoE From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 05:47:14 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:47:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's going to betray the Order? References: <410-2200384752637627@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75793 Wendy: So . . . how to say this without making it sound like I hate Molly, or that I'm making wild unfounded speculations as an excuse to have something to post ? . . . I don't think Molly is evil. But I'm very afraid that she may decide, out of desperation and fear, to go to Voldemort and make a deal: "I'll tell you what you want to know, and you promise not to kill any of my kids." But the question is: is Molly capable of it? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 05:49:18 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:49:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who did Bertha see kissing Florence? Lucius Malfoy, anyone?? Message-ID: <410-2200384754918514@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75794 ~RSFJenny :) wrote: "I know it's been mentioned often enough that others think there's got to be some reason we saw Bertha in DD's pensieve in GoF. We learned that Lucius Malfoy is 41 in OotP, and JKR said in an interview that Lupin (or Sirius, whatever, since they were in the same year anyway) was 35 or 36 in PoA, making them 37 or 38 in OotP, which would mean that they would've been 3-4 years behind Lucius at Hogwarts. Sirius said in GoF that Bertha was a few years above them at Hogwarts, and now we know that Lucius was as well. I find it much likelier that Bertha was hexed by someone closer to her own age, Lucius Malfoy, than by someone 3 or 4 years her junior (meaning one of the Mauraders or Snape)." Now me (Wendy): This is a great suggestion! I think Lucius is a very likely candidate for the one snogging Florence in the greenhouse. I've thought that, in general, MWPP and Snape were a bit young to have been caught by Bertha. Snape didn't seem the type (from what we saw in the Penseive), Lupin probably didn't have the self-confidence to hit on girls (being a werewolf and all), James was already crushing on Lily, and Sirius didn't seem to be all that interested in that sort of thing. Not even going to consider Peter in this scenario. Ugh. (Although I seem to remember a whole Peter/Florence ship going on here a while back) Also, Lucius certainly seems like the type who wouldn't hesitate to hex someone who snuck up on him, so that fits. So, that leads me to wonder: what's the big deal? Why does it matter that anyone saw them together? (Speculation ahead . . . ) Because Florence was a Muggle-born witch. And Lucius was in love with her, or he wouldn't have cared if word got out that they were together. (My reasoning - if he didn't really care for her, he could have always bragged to his friends that he was just "slumming" with her, or having a bit of sport with a Mudblood. The fact that he didn't want anyone to know suggests that he didn't want to be forced to speak ill of her). We don't know what happened to Florence after this. Is she still alive? In any case, Lucius didn't end up with her - he made the marriage that was expected of him to Narcissa. But does this mean that somewhere, deep in his black little heart, there is some spark of affection left for the Muggle-born girl he once loved? Could it be rekindled? Is Lucius going to surprise us all by turning from his mudblood-hating ways, and betray Voldemort? Well, it doesn't actually seem all that likely, but I suppose anything is possible! Although this whole thing contradicts my theory that Florence is a centaur (because of the Florence/Firenze name connection). Then again, if Lucius was caught snogging a centaur, that might be even harder to explain away to his friends. No, I think I like this theory better (and it seems rather more likely) - Lucius was in love with a Muggle-born witch. Going against all that pure blood running through his veins. Almost makes you feel sorry for the guy. Well, maybe not . :-) Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 05:52:53 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:52:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who's going to betray the Order? References: <410-2200384752637627@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75795 Sorry everyone--the e-mail sent before I had actually done that little thing called *writing my post.* I apologize! Wendy: So . . . how to say this without making it sound like I hate Molly, or that I'm making wild unfounded speculations as an excuse to have something to post ? . . . I don't think Molly is evil. But I'm very afraid that she may decide, out of desperation and fear, to go to Voldemort and make a deal: "I'll tell you what you want to know, and you promise not to kill any of my kids." But the question is: is Molly capable of it? Dan: I don't think so. You see, to betray Harry by trading information to Voldemort in return for a little favor would be, well, idiotic, and I don't think Molly is that big of a fool. She's seen friends (and family?) murdered by Voldemort and his Death Eaters. She knows that he is Evil and Not to Be Trusted. That's the thing. Unless there is a magical contract; some sort of binding promise of ancient magic, in the vein of life debts and Lily's protection... something fundamental that cannot be broken, I don't see her letting Harry and the rest be endangered out of despair and fear. I've read her as protective of her children, and Ginny's involvement with Harry in a fight against Death Eaters is no help, but the real question is: is she stupid enough to trust a Most Evil Wizard? -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 05:54:23 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:54:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Old Are Hagrid/Dumbledore? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75796 QoE: I just realized how old (I'm a little slow) Hagrid and Dumbledore are supposed to be. I think wizards have a longer life than we muggles but I never thoought of Hagrid as elderly (which he is acourding to CoS), and does anyone know how old Dumbledore is (has he passed the century mark or what)? Dan: Hagrid should be in his 60s (if he was expelled about 50 years ago), and Dumbledore, according to JKR is about 150. I would certainly agree magical people age much slower than muggles (half, perhaps? is there canon?). -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 05:56:44 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:56:44 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry I & Harry II (not TT) Message-ID: <410-220038475564414@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75797 grindieloe wrote: "A very interesting idea... I would agree. Do you also think that Harry will work "the hard way" to become a metamorphmagus (sp) so that the deception of DE's can also work that way?" Now me (Wendy): I don't think there is a "hard way" to become a metamorphmagus. Tonks says, "Metamorphmagi are really rare, they're born, not made. Most wizards need to use a wand or potions to change their appearance . . . " (OoP, pag 53, US hardcover). So when she says Harry will have to learn the hard way, I think she's talking about mastering the spells and potions that one would presumably learn in "Auror School" to disguise one's self. I don't think it's possible to learn to be a metamorphmagi. Although there has been some speculation that Harry already is one (what with him growing his hair back and such). I hope not, though. That would be just bit over-the-top for my taste. :-) Wendy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 06:14:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:14:06 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tara" wrote: > Hi everyone, > >> I was just wondering what you thought about Sirius seeming to confuse Harry for James in book 5. << > > What do you think? > > Tara bboy_mn: I think Harry and Sirius had a symbiotic relationship going. A relationship that was mutually delusional. Although, to use the word 'delusional' seems a bit harsh, perhaps, a mutually illusional relationship would be better. In Sirius, Harry found the nearest living thing to his father. Both in a father substitue, and in the sense, that Sirius was James best friend for many years, and of anyone other than Lily, he knew James best. So, in a sense, Sirius is the closest Harry will ever get to his own father in his lifetime. In Harry, Sirius found his long lost and dearest friend. In Harry, he also found a chance to redeem himself for the mistake he made that cost James his life. I think Sirius took his Godfather role very seriously, and he would have done anything to protect Harry. It must have been hell for Sirius to want to be a part of Harry's life so desperately, and at the same time, be so helpless to do anything aobut it. From the minute Sirius left Azkaban, I don't think Harry was ever off his mind for even a moment. In Harry, Sirius found a chance to reclaim his lost friend, redemption for himself, and a purpose in a life that had otherwise been wasted. I really thought that it would be impossible for Sirius to be the one that died. They both needed each other way too much for that to happen. But now that Sirius is lost, I see this re-enforcing Harry's trend of distancing himself from people; re-enforcing his sense of isolation. I see a very dark turn for Harry in the next book; a dark turn that scares me more than Voldemort. If I had to sum up Harry's new dark attitude in the fewest words, it would go something like this- 'Why love or be loved when it can never end in anything but death?' That's a very scary and a very lonely way to live. bboy_mn From Meliss9900 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 06:24:04 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:24:04 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Old Are Hagrid/Dumbledore? Message-ID: <16e.224642e4.2c634a84@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75799 In a message dated 8/7/2003 12:51:21 AM Central Standard Time, queenofeverythang at yahoo.com writes: > On the subject of age, > > I just realized how old (I'm a little slow) Hagrid and Dumbledore > are supposed to be. I think wizards have a longer life than we > muggles but I never thoought of Hagrid as elderly (which he is > acourding to CoS), and does anyone know how old Dumbledore > is (has he passed the century mark or what)? > > -QoE > Hagrid between 65 -- 70 .. JKR has said that Dumbledore is about 150. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 06:32:09 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807063209.23874.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75800 I was just wondering what you thought about Sirius seeming to confuse Harry for James in book 5. To be honest, if JKR hadn't explicitly had other characters mention it, I never would have picked up on that, and even though it was stated in the book, the idea felt a little bit forced to me. I thought Sirius often behaved irrationally in book 5 (it was understandable, but still irrational) but I never really thought of him seeing Harry as James. I think one of the reasons why I found it hard to swallow was because Sirius has been around for three books now, but in the first two this issue never came up, and then in this book it sort of felt to me like an afterthought. What do you think? Tara I agree with you Tara...I think it's very interesting that people suddenly believe this. The truth it comes from a discussion with Molly Weasley (who to my knowledge didn't not James that well). A lot of people don't think Harry is like James, I personally disagree I think he is a lot like his father (and I'm going on the very little I know of James). He's a quidditch player...however, ironically Sirius rarely ever discusses Quidditch with his Godson if he talked constantly about Quidditch with him I would assume that he is treating him like a "buddy" not a responsibility. There is nothing wrong with Harry asking questions...nothing. Sirius understands this, he knew Harry would have questions...because he picked up on his naturally curious spirit. And he knew harry had a right to know about certain stuff. James was very adventurous so was Sirius but Harry also inherited this sense of adventure. The only reason why he got protective of Sirius was because he did not want to loose his father....I personally think Sirius got upset at Harry during that one discussion because he knew that Lily and James wouldnn't have wanted him to do it either (and I am fully aware that Sirius said that..but there is a reson why he got all that angry with him). James would go at nothing to help a friend (we see this in Harry as well). Really maybe he did treat Harry a little like James, but don't we all do that everytime we see somebody that reminds us of a loved one? ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 06:48:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:48:50 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote: > > I don't think the new DADA teacher will be Snape. I do think that > Harry did better in potions than he thought. ...edited... > bboy_mn: Harry certainly did much better in potions OWLs than he thinks he did, but there is no way he achieved 'Outstanding'. Even 'Exceeds Expectations', while possible, is pushing it. But, even thought I will contadict it later in this post, I do think Harry will be in NEWT potions. The only way that can happen is- -Dumbledore pulls rank, and forces Snape to take him. I'm sure Dumbledore has stepped in every year to assure that Snape gave Harry a reasonable grade which is why he continues to pass, but there is a big difference between passing each year and achieving 'Outstanding' in his potions OWL. Conclusion: I don't see Dumbledore stepping in. -Harry will go to Snape and beg to be let in the class. Can you say, 'FAT CHANCE'? -There will be a different Potions teacher with less restrictive standards, but the means something has to happen to Snape. The logical step is for him to take over DADA class. Conclusion: the only way for Harry to take potions is if Snape isn't teaching it. -Snape becomes a full time Death Eater, but this doesn't make sense if Snape is a double agent. He can hardly spy on Dumbledore if Snape's not at the school. > Even so, I want Harry to keep the DA going. He is going to need an > army he can count on, if he is going to win. > bboy_mn: I can see how the DA Club could be a one time/one book thing. The club is needed more than ever now, and I don't think even a good DADA teacher will be able to give the students enough practice to satisfy them. The DA Club has to continue; I think it will be instrumental in uniting the houses by bring the 'good Slytherin' into the picture. > > As for grades, I expect Harry to have gotten outstanding in > Transfiguration, Potions, Charms, DADA, and Herbology. bboy_mn: The requirements for Auror don't specifically say you need a Potions NEWT. That's just a logical class to take. I've sometimes wondered if Harry couldn't just take the Herbology NEWT as a substitute for Potions. As far as I'm concerned, Potions is just Applied Herboloby; although, I acknowledge that it involves more that just herbs (note: the text book for Potions is '1,000 herbs and Fungi'). Certainly, Harry could gain a working knowledge of poisons and antidotes by studying Herbology. So, as far as I'm concerned, there will either be a new Potions teacher, or Harry will take Herbology instead of Potions. Next question, will Ron be able or willing to take continued Potions classes, and would Herbology be a sufficient substitute for him? Part of this, is me wondering if, as a continuation of Harry's sense of isolation, Harry and Ron won't take all of the same classes. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 06:49:19 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:49:19 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75802 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Jessica: > I don't have my book with me, but I believe that Moody said he taught > Harry to block the Imperious Curse so nothing would hinder him from > winning the tournament thereby not reaching the portkey to the graveyard. > > Dan: > I don't remember that... maybe he did, but it wouldn't make sense. Being able to fight Imperius might help against certain kinds of mind control, but Harry never encountered anything that could control minds in the tournament. Besides, Crouch was sabotaging the hole thing, anyways. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Geoff: I don't think that is right. Looking at the book: "You had an easier time of it than you should have done in that maze tonight, of course", said Moody. "That was because I was patrolling around it, able to see through the outer hedges, able to curse many obstacles out of your way. I stunned Fleur Delacour as she passed. I put the Imperius curse on Krum, so that he would finish Diggory, andleave your path to the Cup clear." (GOF p.588 "Veritaserum") From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 06:57:05 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 23:57:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Evil Molly! In-Reply-To: <410-2200384752637627@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030807065705.41444.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75803 The one argument against Betrayer!Molly (other than simply believing in Molly's innate goodness) is that I don't see her being willing to betray Harry. I don't think she would ever give him to Voldemort - she considers him to be one of "her own." However, if she thought there was any way she could betray the Order while saving her family and Harry, I *know* she would consider it. Who wouldn't *consider* it? Whether or not she'll actually *do* it? Well, we'll just have to wait and see, won't we? :-) Wendy I was working on this very theory a second ago! I love Molly to death mind you. But people act odd when they are promised to protect the people the care about. Molly may be very trusting...what if somebody promised to not hurt Harry..if they give information up? Or what if she betrayed somebody like hermione instead? They could use hermione to acquire information. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Aug 7 07:08:11 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 00:08:11 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry I & Harry II (not TT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <103118092862.20030807000811@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75804 Wednesday, August 6, 2003, 6:57:43 PM, Steve wrote: S> One uncomfortable question remains; just how /complete/ will her S> transformation into Harry be? S> If you know what I mean; nudge, nudge, wink, wink. I've mentioned this in a previous post, but it is my belief that Tonks is unable to turn into a "carbon copy" of a given person... She can alter various "parameters" in her facial features to become a certain *type* of person, but she can't assume an exact enough form to convincingly pass for a specific known person. I'm not even she sure she can morph into an acceptable male -- either below or above the waistline, sunshine! ;) -- Dave From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 06:41:44 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:41:44 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75805 Shirley: > First, do we really *know* that it's Snape that LV is talking about > in the circle of DEs toward the end of Book 4? I know that I figured > that it was Snape who was lost forever (or however he worded it) as a > Death Eater, but has that ever been confirmed? > {snipped} It's never confirmed in the manner "Yup, Snape's the one who's not coming back." But it is implied in such a way, I think of it as confirmed. LV says: Quote: "One too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed of course...and one who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service. He is at Hogwarts, that faithful servant, and it is through his efforts that our young friend arrived here tonight." (GoF) The one who is too cowardly to return is obviously Karkaroff, he had already fled Hogwarts by the time Harry got back from the graveyard. Crouch Jr. must be the loyal servant, since he admits that he bewitched the portkey to take Harry to Voldemort. That leaves Snape as the one who is gone forever, unless it's someone we've never heard of, which is very unlikely. And in that scenario, Voldemort would have made no reference at all to Snape, which is pretty unbelievable, given that he told us how everyone else who wasn't there, came to be missing. So even if I had had a few doubts in the past about Snape's loyalties (despite Dumbledore's constant affirmations of faith in him) LV believing he had lost Snape as a DE convinced me. ~Margaret From o_caipora at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 06:21:11 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:21:11 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75806 bboy_m wrote > I wonder if this is being set up to be the next big conflict between > Harry and Draco? . . . > I have a feeling with his father in jail, Draco might be > eager to get his hands on some new gold. I think that's the crux of it. Rowling could easily have invented another cousin who would inherit. She might still. The Blacks could be racist but not sexist and it could go to Andromeda, or Tonks. But by the traditional rules for British property and British titles, and in the tradition of British novels, based on what we've been told it all goes to Draco. That fairly screams plot twist. "scooting2win" wrote: > > There is one problem here, Sirius uncle left him a good bit of > > money . . . so it apparently > > goes to who the person deceased left it too, and that would be > > Harry. > > bboy_mn wrote: > That hints at the possiblity that the 'nearest blood male heir' > method can be deviated from. Entailment occurs when someone puts a provision in his will, such as "The house and lands go to the closest male blood relative, provided he agrees to impose a similar condition including this one in his will, otherwise it goes to the next closest male relative willing to impose such a condition, etc". A condition other than "nearest male blood relative" is also possible. "Pure-blooded" might have been imposed by the Blacks; perhaps "male" could have been left out. Nowadays you can't impose a condition that lasts longer than 100 years beyond the death of anyone then living. The world belongs to the living, not the dead, and someone who died in the 1500's can't be prohibiting the sale of a house. bboy_m wrote: > A third possibility, is that the estate that Alphard inherited, in > turn, when to the next male heir, and money Alphard personally made in > his lifetime, went to Sirius. If I interpreted it correctly, this is > what O_Caipora said. All of his money, even what he inherited, may have been free of entailment, held "in fee simple". The entailed Black property would have gone to Sirius's father. But Sirius's grandfather could have left un-entailed money or property to Alphard. In that case, Sirius's parents may have already been peeved that they were unable to prevent the bulk of the family property from going to Sirius. If Alphard had funds he *could* leave without restriction, and *did* leave them to Sirius rather than the "good son" Regulus, that might have deeply irritating to Sirius's parents. > I think the key to getting a better handle on this, is an > understanding of the rights of a Godson. Does he have the Right of > Inheritance; is he a member of the God family? It's more a Catholic than a legal thing. - Caipora From rgbmcl at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 06:19:22 2003 From: rgbmcl at hotmail.com (rgbmcl) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 06:19:22 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: I think Sirius had to die to further the > relationship between Lupin and Harry. IMHO, Lupin is the father > figure (mentor, teacher) that will best help Harry face LV. Lupin > and Harry will certainly share grief over the loss of Sirius. This > could provide the foundation for a more in-depth relationship. Harry > has to kill LV and Lupin has to kill Peter. Well, Lupin doesn't have > to kill Peter but I bet he feels obligated to do it. Neither Harry > nor Lupin want to kill anyone but both are really left with no choice. > This shared destiny would not exist if Sirius had not died. Agreed. Also, before OOP Sirius and Lupin were essentially redundant characters. They both played the same role from Harry's view point. IMO, that's why Lupin didn't play a major role in GoF and OOP. Also, more personally, this is why I liked the change in Sirius' character between GoF and OOP. It distinguished him from Lupin. In any event, I think we'll see a lot more out of Lupin in the next two books now that Sirius is gone. Rob From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 07:08:57 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 07:08:57 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75808 > > "John, C" He still > pits Harry > > against Malfoy at Lockhart's dueling session well knowing that > they were > > going to try and rip each other apart. I'm sure he enjoyed > watching it too. (snip) frumenta: > Well... considering what an exceptional wizard Harry is, he was > putting Draco in harm's way more than Harry. And there is the fact > that he whispered in Draco's ear before Draco went to face Harry (a > detail absent from the movie so perhaps isn't as important as I'd > originally thought it to be). I always thought Snape told Draco to > go for "serpensortia" to test his theory that Harry may be a > Parseltongue (and was still shocked to discover that because it must > have been a slight chance) (snip again) I always assumed that Snape told Draco to do the serpensortia spell too, but my reasoning was different. I don't think it was because Snape had any idea of Harry's parseltongue abilities, I just figured he did it to watch Harry terrified. It seemed to fit: Snape and Malfoy are in Slytherin, and a serpent is on their banner. Most people are scared of snakes, and Snape would probably get a kick out of watching Harry in a vulnerable position in a room full of fellow students. Of course, I'm still new here, I could be wrong. ~Margaret From esaulgd at cantv.net Thu Aug 7 06:09:29 2003 From: esaulgd at cantv.net (Nintendo) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 02:09:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Cho References: Message-ID: <003001c35caa$77c71f80$a2c654c8@SAUL> No: HPFGUIDX 75809 From: "feetmadeofclay" Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2003 4:21 PM Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: Harry and Cho > GOLLY: I'm not sure I understand. It is not about romantic > experience. So yes, perhaps speaking about Hermione to Cho was a bad > move if your girlfriend has the self esteem of a mouse...(as Rowling > so gently informed us) but my comment has nothing to do with dating. It is not a question of self-esteem. Saying you're going to meet a girl during Valentine's Day in a cafe has a lot of meaning. Cho had no way of knowing this was a "work" meeting, plus it would be reasonable for her to wonder if they have a romantic attachment, present or past (Rita's articles, they DO spend a lot of time together). Had Harry had some more experience, he would have know what he might be implying and could have worded things better. > I don't think you need experience to be kind to your girlfriend even > if she is your first! Harry never had a friend before Hogwarts and > he managed to be very nice to Ron right off the bat. In fact he's > nice to Hermione all the time. (Ok, most of the time. But he still > treats her like a person and not an object. He knows about her > interests and she about his) I think you'd agree that romantic relationship are much more complicated and less natural to manage than friendships. Harry was trying to be his nicest, but most of the time he simply didn't know what to do. Harry gets along with Cho perfectly when keeping things at friend level (talking about Quidditch, DA lessons, etc.). > I don't expect deep soul discussions here. I don't expect the wooing > of a Don Juan. All I ask is some attempt on Harry's part. Some > interest in Cho as a person. He has none and then he behaves like a > jerk when she turns out to be less than perfect. I think you're being unfair to Harry here. There is nothing to show his actions have a selfish motive. Actually, during the whole book, he asks NOTHING of her. His main concern is to keep her happy. His less-than-stellar performance is due to situations he didn't expect and didn't know how to handle. > You don't need romantic experience or a TV example to treat people > nicely. Otherwise, how did Harry come to Hogwarts so nice? Again, what would be nice for a friend, may not be enough for a girlfriend. A person usually gives nicer presents to his/her romantic partner than to the rest of his/her friends. You can not see your friends for a couple months and retake the friendship later, but this would be significant stress for a romance. Harry knew how friendship works (at the very least, he could see friends interacting in primary school) but has no way of knowing what is expected of him as a boyfriend. I'd be pretty disappointed if a date of mine acted only like my best friend and never crossed that line. > Nintendo: > > On a different yet related topic, I'd like to point out that > while Cho's change in personality might be justified, I believe > it could have been more subtle or shown more gradually. It would > have made it more believable and better written. Now, we may > never be sure of what was Cho's true self before Cedric's death > or if she was truly attracted to Harry instead of just chasing > him for his connection to Cedric. >>> > > GOLLY: I don't think it was a change in personality. I think the > point was that she was always weak and shallow - when tested she > shows her stripes. I really doubt so. A shallow girl wouldn't have worried much about an old boyfriend when she's dating the most famous boy in school. A weak girl wouldn't have been able to handle the stuff she's going thru without anyone's help and kept it inside herself for so long. Then again, if Rowling had portrayed her in OotP to my liking, this wouldn't be a debatable point. > Harry just didn't know her. It was a shallow > hormonal thing he's now beyond. That hardly seems to be the message Rowling is giving. He doesn't suddenly develop an interest for mature and ugly girls. It seems more like Sirius' death make him think there are more important things than dating. I wouldn't call ANYONE's first love a "shallow, hormonal thing". > GOLLY: My friends and I have started calling Ravenclaw "The Slutty > House". We think secretly they are not just intelligent but sex- > driven as well. A Paglian house of sexual power! Great. After half the series, we finally are in the spotlight only to be labeled "easy-to-get" people. I will have to remember to send Rowling a howler. Look, we can't help if all the Gryffindors are googling over our natural and spontaneous (since we bookworks don't have time to dress up, unlike those leather-wearing Slytherins) charm. ;-) -- Nintendo Proud Alumni of ~ Ravenclaw ~ (a.k.a. Gryffindors' Dating Service) From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 03:22:48 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 03:22:48 -0000 Subject: Myrtle an Evans? (was: Is Lily Voldemort daughter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75811 > "Marci" wrote: > > > A last name has not been given yet (has it?) so could Moaning > Myrtle be an Evans? > > (Please correct me if I'm wrong and her last name has in fact been mentioned.) My crude timeline makes this possible, BUT ONLY IF > > Myrtle was a FIRST YEAR when she died in 1942-43. This would mean > > she was born in 1931. I feel that Petunia is 10 years older than > > Lily, so Myrtle could have been 10 or more years older than > Petunia. It could hold true that the Evanses did not have another > child until after the first one, Myrtle, died. > > > Bonnie wrote: > It's an interesting theory, but I do have one major problem with > it that I can't get around, sorry. I don't think that JKR would write Myrtle taking a romantic fancy to Harry if she were his aunt, at least I hope she wouldn't. > Personal preferences aside though, I'm not sure where it says that Myrtle was a muggle-born. I thought she was at least a halfblood, > because I thought she was in Slytherin. >>> Me (Marci) again: "But I know one thing -- last time the Chamber of Secrets was opened, a Mudblood died," says Malfoy to a Polyjuice-Potioned Ron and Harry. Plus, she wouldn't know she was his aunt. And, like I said, it only works if she was a first year when she died. I assumed she might have been a Hufflepuff. From gene111222 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 04:02:21 2003 From: gene111222 at yahoo.com (gene111222) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 04:02:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75812 Well, JKR didn't exactly gloss over Cho in the character development dept. Cho is very deeply emotional and with good reason. Hermey actually spells it out for us guys who otherwise would have missed it. The author just wanted to show that Harry has been too socially disconnected, like a young teen. She is leading us in steps through Harry's development as an adult which does not happen all at once. Plus, he was a bit too pre-occupied to unscramble his brains enough to understand where she was coming from. He doubts himself a lot. He always lets opportunities to clarify things pass him by. He would rather clam up than speak up. That, however is changing in OoTP. He spoke his mind loud and clear, he admitted his anger, his guilt about the tri-wizard winnings and took the lead in the DA. BUT, when it comes to Cho, he's the same old "No sir, nothing to say right now." Harry we have come to know and love..I still have a lot of hope for Harry and Cho. They both have some changes to go through and that makes for good drama. PS Hip hip hooray for Neville Longbottom. "gene111222" From fire_fly107 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 05:19:32 2003 From: fire_fly107 at hotmail.com (fire_fly107) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 05:19:32 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <20030807030333.17579.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75813 I just have some questions about some of the things acoteucla said about Lupin. Lupin: My favored choice: he's sympathetic, seemingly very kind, and has Dumbledore's & Harry's trust. There's also some suspicious details about the scene at the end of book 3 which are explained if Lupin is evil. Of course, there's also some hard stuff to explain away (like, why does he prevent Harry from going through the veil?) I guess I'm just wondering what the suspicious details at the end of PoA were. It seems pretty obvious to me why Lupin stopped Harry from following Sirius behind the viel, if you die if you cross it, which I'm assuming is how it works. -Clair From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 07:29:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 07:29:06 -0000 Subject: Harry I & Harry II (not TT) In-Reply-To: <103118092862.20030807000811@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75814 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > > Wednesday, August 6, 2003, 6:57:43 PM, Steve wrote: > > S> One uncomfortable question remains; just how /complete/ will her > S> transformation into Harry be? > > S> If you know what I mean; nudge, nudge, wink, wink. > > I've mentioned this in a previous post, but it is my belief that > Tonks is unable to turn into a "carbon copy" of a given person... > She can alter various "parameters" in her facial features to become > a certain *type* of person, but she can't assume an exact enough > form to convincingly pass for a specific known person. I'm not even > she sure she can morph into an acceptable male -- either below or > above the waistline, sunshine! ;) > > -- > Dave bboy_mn: I have my own pet theory on Tonks the Metamorphmagus. I don't think she can create MASS, that is, she couldn't morph into Minster Fudge because he is a substantally bigger person that she is. While I suspect to a limited extent she could create the illusion of someone bigger than herself, they wouldn't be much bigger, and it would be an illusion. So if she weighs 120 pounds, that 120 pounds is roughly what she has to work with. I'm also inclind to agree that she can't make herself into an exact precise copy of another person, because that requires too precise a knowledge of every little detail. More precise than could be accomplished from a photograph, and I think more precise than could be achieve even with the person standing in front of her. And in this sense, not only can we stay above the waist, we can stay above the shoulders. But I think she could morph herself into a reasonable copy of another person. One that would hold up under casual observation, but never too close scrutiny. From a distance, at a glance, in a crowd, amoung distractions, I think she could pass for Harry. So, in that sense, she could never double for Harry, but she could act as a sufficient decoy or distraction. As far as, morphing into a male, that might be awkward and again would require an intimate knowledge of details. But I think she could create a passable male that would stand up to casual observation. Even though I don't have much evidence, I try to base my theories on what is likely. We know that JKR doesn't hand out unlimited power. Everything we see is bounded by limits. So I have tried to create a reasonable and likely boundary of limited to metamorphmagus. Just a few more thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 07:47:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 07:47:56 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" wrote: > > bboy_m wrote > > > > I think the key to getting a better handle on this, is an > > understanding of the rights of a Godson. Does he have the Right of > > Inheritance; is he a member of the God family? > > It's more a Catholic than a legal thing. > > - Caipora bboy_mn: I understand that the Godparent role is a religious thing. For us(Lutheran), it usually something that comes with Baptism; that's when Godparents are assigned. And it is extremely rare that a Godparent will ever have to assume their role; very rare indeed. But in the case where a Godparent does become the legal guardian, does that give the Godchild any rights within the Godfamily? Does joining the Godfamily make you 'family'? I do agree with the nearest male relative being the most likely and logical person, and as you pointed out, that person is Draco. But I have to believe that either there will be a huge battle between Harry and Draco over this issue, or the issue will be completely ignored. Completely ignored seems a bit dull. There are people on the Dark side that know Sirius is dead, and if they somehow think they can disrupt the Order by pursuing this estate, I have to believe they would do it. Plus, an influx of money and property would probably be good for Voldemort. Where does Voldemort get his money anyway? ...or does he live off the kindness of strangers? Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 08:00:03 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:00:03 -0000 Subject: Lupin's home (was Remus and Tonks SHIP]) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75816 > > > Me (Constance Vigilance) > > > > > > Does Lupin live at Grimauld Place? He hangs around there quite a > > bit, > > > but I got the impression that Sirius lived there alone with > > Kreacher. > > > At the end of GOF, Dumbledore tells (somebody?) to start > gathering > > > the Order by going to Lupin's place. Sorry about being so vague > > about > > > the details, but I'm at work, no books. However, I don't think > > Lupin > > > is married. > > > > > > ~ Constance Vigilance > > > > "Lupin, who was staying in the house with Sirius but who left it > for > > long periods of time. . ." (US 118) > > > > I took that to mean Lupin lived there. > > > > bibphile > > Maybe he was just staying with Sirius because he knew how difficult > it was for Sirius to be there. Where was he going for long periods of > time? Guard duty didn't seem to be that long and he didn't have a > job. Or maybe he did - I recall something about umbridge limiting > the amount of hours werewolves could work? I'll have to check my > book. Still hoping for a mrs. > Lziner OoP, p 302, US ed: "but she drafted a bit of anti-werewolf legislation two years ago that makes it almost impossible for him to get a job." No specific mention of what the law entails, unfortunately. I don't think the book mentions exactly what Lupin does in his absences. Presumably it's work for the Order. But what if Lupin spends all that time looking for any kind of work he can find? He probably doesn't need to work much if he's living with Sirius. Certainly Sirius would be happy to help out his friend with food and such, if only to have some regular company other than Kreacher and a screaming portrait of his mother. Maybe Lupin doesn't want to be locked up in the house with stir-crazy, self-pitying, Sirius. He probably doesn't like to rely on anyone else for the basic necessities of life (I know I wouldn't, no matter what my circumstances) if he can help it. So he goes out for extended periods of time hoping to find something that pays. Just a bit of nonsense at nearly 4am, KathyK From malinit at excite.com Thu Aug 7 08:05:14 2003 From: malinit at excite.com (malinitosetti) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:05:14 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75817 > > Geoff: > > It can also mean "wing of death" which I find more > descriptive.... > > Maybe association with the angel of death? > > Me: > I always thought the "flight of death" could actually be "flight > FROM death" since that is the one thing Voldemort fears most. If > there's one thing he's worked towards, it is preventing his own > death. But, as Dumbeldore says: "There are things worse than > death". > It will be interesting to see how it plays out. > > Nisha "Vol" does not mean "wing". That I can assure you! The "flight from death" however also seems possible, and I agree with you Nischa, this could be the right meaning of the name. Mali From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 09:22:15 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:22:15 -0000 Subject: Hints that Sirus would die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "supermonkee90" wrote: > In the 5th book I think there were signs that Sirius would die. One of > them was that Sirius lived at 12 Grimmauld Place. And Grim is the sign > of death (a dog). > > "supermonkee90" Yes, but I think this was JKR having one of her word games with place names as with Diagon Alley, Knockturn Alley and Durmstrang etc. It has already been pointed out that Grimmauld Place is "Grim Old Place". I wonder whether this was put into JKR's mind by the fact that she started writing the book when she was in Edinburgh and this city is sometimes nicknamed "Auld Reekie" by the Scots. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 09:33:43 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:33:43 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <20030807030435.77061.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > B Arrowsmith wrote: > Kneasy said: > > . . . I can only find Godrics Hollow referred to as 'house' not a 'home', wording that could be significant knowing JKRs emphasis on the magical powers of "home' > So, is it home? If not, where is? And who has the keys? > > ----------- > Scott: > When I read the bit about Godric's Hollow, I thought of an area like Hogsmeade. Can anyone cite the canon for the reference? The HP Lexicon says it's a Muggle Village where Lilly and James had a cottage (apparently "blown up" by Voldy). So I doubt there's anything left of it. > > owlery2003 > > Me: PS (page 14 "The Boy Who Lived") McGonagall speaking - "What they're /saying/," she pressed on, "is that last night Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. The rumour is that Lily and James Potter are - are -that they're - /dead/". I have mentioned this reference in a previous post when I referred to the fact that JKR, somewhere in an interview, commented something along the lines that she had asked her literary editor had she thought about the connection between the Hogwarts house Harry is in and his parent's home. I had wondered whether Book 5 would reveal that HP is a descendant of GG; there's still time! Geoff From p_yanna at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 09:57:52 2003 From: p_yanna at hotmail.com (frumenta) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 09:57:52 -0000 Subject: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tara" wrote: > Hello all. This is my first time posting to the list, and I had to jump in > on the Snape discussion. > > e wrote: > > Until book 5 I was never very fond of Snape as a character. He seemed to > be > > there as yet another way to make Harry's life miserable. But after > reading > > the end of Book 5 I suddenly realized that Snape and Harry are in the same > > boat when it comes to Voldemort and that makes some of Snape's actions in > > the earlier books much more interesting. > I always thought that one of the reasons Snape was so eager to > drop the Occlumency lessons was because perhaps some of these memories that > he was seeing of Harry's had the danger of humanizing Harry to him. I don't > think Snape wants to feel anything other than dislike for Harry. I'm not > saying it's the entire reason, but I wondered if it wasn't a factor. > Tara That's a *very* interesting theory (one that hadn't occured to me at all, I must admit). It could be that to an extent Snape staged the pensieve incident (he was certainly pushing his luck with removing his memories in front of Harry and then just leaving the pensieve out, knowing Harry to be as curious as an army of cats) And it ties with other behaviour from Snape. He wants to hold on to his grudges and his hatred every way he can and probably doesn't trust himself sometimes not to be convinced (the scene at the Shrieking Shack where he bound and gagged Lupin comes to mind. I always read that as Snape not wanting to listen to Lupin afraid the werewolf might convince him.) Mim From scooting2win at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 10:53:58 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:53:58 -0000 Subject: How Old Are Hagrid/Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: <16e.224642e4.2c634a84@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/7/2003 12:51:21 AM Central Standard Time, > queenofeverythang at y... writes: > > > On the subject of age, > > > > I just realized how old (I'm a little slow) Hagrid and Dumbledore > > are supposed to be. I think wizards have a longer life than we > > muggles but I never thoought of Hagrid as elderly (which he is > > acourding to CoS), and does anyone know how old Dumbledore > > is (has he passed the century mark or what)? > > > > -QoE > > > > Hagrid between 65 -- 70 .. JKR has said that Dumbledore is about 150. > > According to the Lexicon, Dumbledore was born in 1840 and Hagrid was born in 1929. So I guess you do the math. Lori, but remember book 5 was written for 1995 or 1996, i foget which now. ok i looked, book 5 is written for 1995. So if Hagrid and Dumbledore survive the final battle then, Dumbledore will be how old, now, 163 and Hagrid will be 74. but that is this year not 8 years ago. lori From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 10:59:27 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:59:27 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Wendy: > So . . . how to say this without making it sound like I hate Molly, or > that I'm making wild unfounded speculations as an excuse to have something > to post ? . . . I don't think Molly is evil. But I'm very afraid that > she may decide, out of desperation and fear, to go to Voldemort and make a > deal: "I'll tell you what you want to know, and you promise not to kill any > of my kids." But the question is: is Molly capable of it? > Yes, but... Would you trust a Voldemort if you couldn't see where it kept its conscience? From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 11:09:27 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:09:27 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "malinitosetti" wrote: > > > > Geoff: > > > It can also mean "wing of death" which I find more > > descriptive.... > > > Maybe association with the angel of death? > > > > Me: > > I always thought the "flight of death" could actually be "flight > > FROM death" since that is the one thing Voldemort fears most. If > > there's one thing he's worked towards, it is preventing his own > > death. But, as Dumbeldore says: "There are things worse than > > death". > > It will be interesting to see how it plays out. > > > > Nisha > > "Vol" does not mean "wing". That I can assure you! > The "flight from death" however also seems possible, and I agree with > you Nischa, this could be the right meaning of the name. > > Mali Geoff: My ancient battered old "Concise Oxford French Dictionary" gives "vol" as flight and as an alternative to "aile" for wing..... Geoff From scooting2win at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 11:09:55 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:09:55 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo > wrote: > > > > > > B Arrowsmith wrote: > > Kneasy said: > > > > . . . I can only find Godrics Hollow referred to as 'house' not > a 'home', wording that could be significant knowing JKRs emphasis on > the magical powers of "home' > > So, is it home? If not, where is? And who has the keys? > > > > ----------- > > > > > Scott: > > When I read the bit about Godric's Hollow, I thought of an area > like Hogsmeade. Can anyone cite the canon for the reference? The HP > Lexicon says it's a Muggle Village where Lilly and James had a > cottage (apparently "blown up" by Voldy). So I doubt there's anything > left of it. > > > > owlery2003 > > > > > > Me: > PS (page 14 "The Boy Who Lived") McGonagall speaking - > > "What they're /saying/," she pressed on, "is that last night > Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. > The rumour is that Lily and James Potter are - are -that they're - > /dead/". > > I have mentioned this reference in a previous post when I referred to > the fact that JKR, somewhere in an interview, commented something > along the lines that she had asked her literary editor had she > thought about the connection between the Hogwarts house Harry is in > and his parent's home. I had wondered whether Book 5 would reveal > that HP is a descendant of GG; there's still time! > > Geoff "Canon" doesn't help much in reference to this, but if you look up Godric Gryffindor on the Lexicon. you can see that they do make a mention of this. Also, one thought that did cross my mind. Voldemort did go alone, because "he" was told where the "Potters" lived, and if he was told by Peter, which we know is true, then how did Hagrid and Dumbledore know where it was? If Peter told Dumbledore where the house was, then why did Sirius go to Azkaban? Dumbledore said that he had known that Sirius was the Secret Keeper that he did not know that they had switched. Just a thought? From scooting2win at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 11:12:19 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:12:19 -0000 Subject: Hints that Sirus would die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "supermonkee90" > wrote: > > In the 5th book I think there were signs that Sirius would die. > One of > > them was that Sirius lived at 12 Grimmauld Place. And Grim is the > sign > > of death (a dog). > > > > "supermonkee90" > > Yes, but I think this was JKR having one of her word games with place > names as with Diagon Alley, Knockturn Alley and Durmstrang etc. > > It has already been pointed out that Grimmauld Place is "Grim Old > Place". I wonder whether this was put into JKR's mind by the fact > that she started writing the book when she was in Edinburgh and this > city is sometimes nicknamed "Auld Reekie" by the Scots. and what were the word plays on the others? I missed those, here we have a river we lovingly call "Big Muddy". So I guess that happens every where one lives, or visits. Lori From malinit at excite.com Thu Aug 7 11:15:05 2003 From: malinit at excite.com (malinitosetti) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:15:05 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75826 > > Geoff: > > My ancient battered old "Concise Oxford French Dictionary" > gives "vol" as flight and as an alternative to "aile" for wing..... > > Geoff Sorry to contradict you Geoff, but believe me, French is my mother tongue (I live in a French speaking country!) and vol does in no way mean wing... From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 11:20:02 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:20:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who did Bertha see kissing Florence? Lucius Malfoy, anyone?? In-Reply-To: <410-2200384754918514@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <20030807112002.2006.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75827 --- Wendy St John wrote: > ~RSFJenny :) wrote: > > "I know it's been mentioned often enough that others > think there's got to > be > some reason we saw Bertha in DD's pensieve in GoF. > Where is this in the books? I've read them several times, but still miss them. Can anyone point out the book, chapter, and page if possible? ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 11:28:16 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 04:28:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807112816.55804.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75828 > I've sometimes wondered if Harry couldn't just take > the Herbology NEWT > as a substitute for Potions. As far as I'm > concerned, Potions is just > Applied Herboloby; although, I acknowledge that it > involves more that > just herbs (note: the text book for Potions is > '1,000 herbs and > Fungi'). Certainly, Harry could gain a working > knowledge of poisons > and antidotes by studying Herbology. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was a book specifically for potions mentioned in one of the books. I know there has been some speculation about a Jiggers writting a book, but as I'm not with my books right now, I can't look it up. And I do not think that the DA will contiunue as it was. Dumbledore, after failing Sirius, will wonder about Lupin and bring him back to Hogwarts as an assistant to DADA. Then I would see him taking the DA over from Harry. Harry would not see this as a problem as he likes Lupin so much. ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From silmariel at telefonica.net Thu Aug 7 11:31:25 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:31:25 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pure Blood Parentage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308071331.25590.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75829 Caipora: [..No Jews or Arabian folk. The rule was if you could prove your four grandparents were clean, your blood was clean.] >>From which time dates the decline of Spain. Pretty much, yes. >> Salazar Slitherin's first name is Iberian. Is he Basque? The founding > of Hogwarts is about the time of the Song of Roland. Did Slitherin > flee Spain just ahead of the invading Moors? > - Caipora It can't be a Basque name. I don't live there, but I hear and read (not saying I understand) Basque enough to know there isn't a syllabe in Salazar matching Basque, wich is a pretty extrange idiom on its own. If you see a linguistic tree ordering idioms by similitudes, you'll find a category for Basque (and only other one, I think, we studied that at high school, but was 10+ years ago). Salazar is and Arabian name, as Seville, Guadalajara, Guadalquivir (anything starting with Gua has a big chance), Granada, Azofaifa, ... Espanish has lots. The whole Peninsula wasn't invaded (ok, maybe 95%), so the Reconquist started. That's when I need an Historian, because the Peninsula wasn't an easy territory to conquer so frontier lines moved along a wide period, but I've found some references AD 1035 Sancho the Great splits Aragon in two AD 1118 Alfonso I of Aragon conquered Zaragoza (Saragossa) AD 1094 El Cid conquers Valencia (only took 5 years to be recaptured, cause he died in 1099) Depending on what means 'about a thousand years ago' Salazar could have flee Spain, perfectly, or could've find a safe place in some Muslim city. There was territory to live at both sides. silmariel From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Aug 7 11:34:45 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:34:45 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote: > > -Snape becomes a full time Death Eater, but this doesn't make sense if > Snape is a double agent. He can hardly spy on Dumbledore if Snape's > not at the school. > I don't think that Snape is going to become a full-time death eater - most of the positions on the DE full time staff seem pretty well filled to me. Most of the DE have day jobs except for those who are either "evil overlord's minion types" like Pettigrew or the "permanently on the run ones" like the Lestranges (who obviously are in no position to apply for a daytime sinecure and cover job in say the Ministry. June From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 11:41:58 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:41:58 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75831 > "Canon" doesn't help much in reference to this, but if you look up > Godric Gryffindor on the Lexicon. you can see that they do make a > mention of this. Also, one thought that did cross my mind. Voldemort > did go alone, because "he" was told where the "Potters" lived, and > if he was told by Peter, which we know is true, then how did Hagrid > and Dumbledore know where it was? If Peter told Dumbledore where the > house was, then why did Sirius go to Azkaban? Dumbledore said that > he had known that Sirius was the Secret Keeper that he did not know > that they had switched. Just a thought? Others can get into Grimmauld Place, even though Dumbledore is the Secret Keper - they just read the paper written by him - so I suppose Peter would have told sirius - but yes, come to think of it, how would hagrid and Dumbledore know, as having Peter's permission to enter would mean knowing he was the keeper - unless they only knew the general area where the house was, and finding one absolutely flattened, the secret betrayed means that others can know where the house is then - the charm is broken? Hmm... From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 7 12:03:31 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:03:31 -0000 Subject: Runes(?) on cover art (for Random) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75832 Random, I've tried emailing you off list but the messages kept on coming back as 'undeliverable', anywho, I don't have the facilities to scan the back cover art ("Children's" cover version for OotP), however, I've found something on the web and I've attached a link. Up at the top there is a smattering of 'symbols' some of which are the same as symbols found in the runic alphabet and others, well, I still haven't identified them. http://www.store.indiatimes.com/book/PlanetMBookLookInside.jsp? audbookid=aub00001412 Cheers, Erica From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Thu Aug 7 12:20:11 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:20:11 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75833 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" wrote: > > > Now, me, > > > > This criticism is a bit harsh, don't you think? Harry was > sincerely > > lost with a girl he fancied. He just wanted to be with her. > > He shows little internal interest in her which means he had little to > none. Instead he shows an interest in having her be interested in > him. I am not saying it is not common or normal. I am only saying > that it is also shallow and if Cho were real- cruel. I would not want > to be liked by Harry in such a way. Besides, no matter how many boys > are this shallow at 15, many are not. > > Normally when Rowling encounters this normal type of shallow or mean > behaviour she roundly criticizes it *snip* > Rowling simply doesn't do the same thing with Harry and Cho. And > though boys may get tongue tied, most I think managed to at least > have the interest. > > > Cho was the one who came at > > Harry, kissed him and led him into that 'snog-shack' where she and > > Cediruc used to go. How insensitive can you get? She is a full > year > > older with dating experience. > > As I said before, I think Rowling fully makes this clear *snip* > Cho is put through quite a ringer both for imposing herself on Harry, > making him uncomfortable and being just generally shallow. > > The only person's bad behaviour I've seen JKR ignore so far is > Hermione's and Harry's *snip* > Harry knows how to treat a girl - even one he likes. He knows > how to treat people decently. > > The fault here is Rowling's IMHO not Harry's. I'm not sure I am > meant to feel the way I do about his treatment of Cho. I think I am > meant to laugh at the whole thing and in the end learn that shallow > traits are not good to go by. I am meant to indulge Harry and excuse > his behaviour as normal. I however cannot laugh at Cho. There is > something so pitiful about her. Trapped in this illusion that men > will be her rock and then she inexplicably lashes out when things go > badly. Contrasted with her previous depiction I cannot say I enjoy > her downfall as I should. Perhaps I am just delusional. But still > can't laugh at her. Even when all the jokes are there. ME : WHERE is Harry supposed to have learnt all these things? I think we have a plot point that will run for the next two books. Harry hasn't had good examples of caring, loving, demonstrative affection shown through his childhood. I don't think getting a hug off Molly Weasley counts as an emotional schooling. I believe this is Harry's task through the next two books - he has the raw material, he has feelings for people, but he's not been given any examples or instruction in showing the feelings. He may have the 'weapon' love in vast quantities, but now he has to learn how to 'use' it (I don't mean that to sound the way it does 8)). As an 'action hero' as he's been for the first four books, he's not considered anything much but the next adventure, task, battle. My guess is, he's going to carry on growing up, and have to learn how to deal with the big gaping hole in his development. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Thu Aug 7 12:20:31 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:20:31 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" wrote: > > > Now, me, > > > > This criticism is a bit harsh, don't you think? Harry was > sincerely > > lost with a girl he fancied. He just wanted to be with her. > > He shows little internal interest in her which means he had little to > none. Instead he shows an interest in having her be interested in > him. I am not saying it is not common or normal. I am only saying > that it is also shallow and if Cho were real- cruel. I would not want > to be liked by Harry in such a way. Besides, no matter how many boys > are this shallow at 15, many are not. > > Normally when Rowling encounters this normal type of shallow or mean > behaviour she roundly criticizes it *snip* > Rowling simply doesn't do the same thing with Harry and Cho. And > though boys may get tongue tied, most I think managed to at least > have the interest. > > > Cho was the one who came at > > Harry, kissed him and led him into that 'snog-shack' where she and > > Cediruc used to go. How insensitive can you get? She is a full > year > > older with dating experience. > > As I said before, I think Rowling fully makes this clear *snip* > Cho is put through quite a ringer both for imposing herself on Harry, > making him uncomfortable and being just generally shallow. > > The only person's bad behaviour I've seen JKR ignore so far is > Hermione's and Harry's *snip* > Harry knows how to treat a girl - even one he likes. He knows > how to treat people decently. > > The fault here is Rowling's IMHO not Harry's. I'm not sure I am > meant to feel the way I do about his treatment of Cho. I think I am > meant to laugh at the whole thing and in the end learn that shallow > traits are not good to go by. I am meant to indulge Harry and excuse > his behaviour as normal. I however cannot laugh at Cho. There is > something so pitiful about her. Trapped in this illusion that men > will be her rock and then she inexplicably lashes out when things go > badly. Contrasted with her previous depiction I cannot say I enjoy > her downfall as I should. Perhaps I am just delusional. But still > can't laugh at her. Even when all the jokes are there. ME : WHERE is Harry supposed to have learnt all these things? I think we have a plot point that will run for the next two books. Harry hasn't had good examples of caring, loving, demonstrative affection shown through his childhood. I don't think getting a hug off Molly Weasley counts as an emotional schooling. I believe this is Harry's task through the next two books - he has the raw material, he has feelings for people, but he's not been given any examples or instruction in showing the feelings. He may have the 'weapon' love in vast quantities, but now he has to learn how to 'use' it (I don't mean that to sound the way it does 8)). As an 'action hero' as he's been for the first four books, he's not considered anything much but the next adventure, task, battle. My guess is, he's going to carry on growing up, and have to learn how to deal with the big gaping hole in his development. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Aug 7 12:47:13 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:47:13 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tara" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was just wondering what you thought about Sirius seeming to confuse Harry > for James in book 5. To be honest, if JKR hadn't explicitly had other > characters mention it, I never would have picked up on that, and even though > it was stated in the book, the idea felt a little bit forced to me. I > thought Sirius often behaved irrationally in book 5 (it was understandable, > but still irrational) but I never really thought of him seeing Harry as > James. Did any characters make this accusation other than Molly? I don't recall if this sentiment was also echoed by Hermione. I never felt for an instant that Sirius looked at or talked to Harry and thought he was interacting with James. I do think he made comparisons in his mind between the two, and I also think he was well along on the down-side of the scale of depression, but I don't think he was delusional. The clearest instance of Sirius making comparisons was when Harry told him he shouldn't come up for the next Hogsmeade weekend. Harry's reaction was clearly not what James' reaction would have been and it disappointed Sirius that Harry didn't respond to the suggestion as James would have. "You're less like your father than I thought." I didn't read that as Sirius suddenly becoming aware that he was speaking to Harry and not James, but rather a realization, that Harry is his own person and that sometimes he'll act like or think like James, and sometimes he won't. And, as far as Sirius thinking that Harry had many of James' traits in his behavior and skills, that did exist as early as PoA. When Harry and Hermione arrived in a rush at the Shack, Sirius says that is exactly what James would have done. Harry takes that as a taunt, but I believe Sirius meant it exactly as stated. And, later he says that Harry flies as well as James. Finally, as he escaped with Buckbeak, Sirius tells Harry that he's truly his father's son. None of this strikes me as evidence that Sirius was confusing the two Potters in his mind. I guess it's time to do my third re-read of OoP, because the only instance I can think of where this accusation is made is by Molly in the kitchen scene when Harry first arrives at Grimmauld Place. Marianne From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 12:57:36 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:57:36 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience (was Why Bella didn't disapparate/ OOP Az. effects) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote:> > You've convinced me, about 99 per cent. Except, what was Dumbledore occupied with, when he whipped around to aim a spell at Bellatrix? Talisman, who has decided to wear her pirate outfit under her robes, but who is starting to clank about a bit, what with the sword, compass, pistols, wand, rememberall, sneak-o-scope, etc., replies: Well he could have just been standing there muttering "O.K. Bella, make your move . . .," but I rather like to think he was having a Sirius moment. At the risk of becoming tedious, I'll note again that I believe Dumbledore killed Sirius. See #66983 and thread. [I would modify that original theory in that, at the time, I thought of how Dumbledore had levitated Harry on past occasions, but (duh) Dumbledore is shooting invisible ropes everywhere in the death chamber. I've since concluded that Dumbledore immobilized Sirius so that he couldn't duck Bella's second blast, and then guided stunned Sirius gently through the veil. Pulling all the invisible strings so suits Dumbledore's role as puppetmaster.] Back to the Sirius moment, even though Dumbledore does tough things, I think he pays a very hard price. (See Valkyrievixen's post #67288.) Recall the moment when, as Dumbledore says in OoP, he "was condemning [Harry] to ten dark and difficult years" (835) of abuse at the hands of the Dursleys. Against Hagrid's remonstrations, Dumbledore has just placed baby Harry on the doorstep, and we're told: "For a full moment, the three of them stood and looked at the little bundle; Hagrids shoulder's shook, Professor McGonagall blinked furiously, and the twinkling light that usually shone from Dumbledore's eyes seemed to have gone out." (SS 16) I rather think there was a moment (or at least 30 seconds) of stasis where the twinkling lights went out for Sirius, too. > Annemehr: > Er, lying, actually? Well, he did say he was going to tell > Harry "everything," and he certainly did not, but mostly I see him > doling out the truth in tiny doses. Talisman: I actually do think Dumbledore lies both omissively (as you describe above)and comissively. I hope to post a detailed explanation soon. So many posts, so little time. > Annemehr: > Captain Sparrow's "effects" eh? If I can find so much as a pistol > with one shot to add to the canon, I may be asking for permission to come aboard! Talisman: Aye, welcome aboard me hearty. We'll sail around and sing pirate ditties between battles. Yoho. It'll be great fun. > Annemehr > still withholding judgment on whether this all turns out entirely > the way Dumbledore thinks Talisman: I think the big picture, i.e. Harry doing what needs to be done with respect to Voldemort, will be accomplished. But I also think/hope Dumbledore's got at least one surprise lesson of his own in store, coming from Harry. That is, before Dumbledore is offed. Talisman, who's off to tickle the giant squid. P.S. Considering the line, "It was foolish to come here tonight, Tom" said Dumbledore calmly." (OoP 813) Sure there is the debunking aspect (You can prance around calling yourself the Dark Lord, but you'll always be Tom to me . . .), but did anyone else hear sorrow, compassion, even affection in that intimacey? I'm sensing more of that "magic at its deepest [and] most impenetrable." (PoA 427) From sue at simiant.com Thu Aug 7 13:07:21 2003 From: sue at simiant.com (sueeeyqbong) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:07:21 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75837 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tallulah_sam" wrote: > Some things that have been troubling me since reading Gof... > 1) when Hermione states when talking about the judges for the > Triwizard Tournament.. "Well the heads of the schools are always on > the panel"...."because all three of them were injured during the > tournament of 1792" So...does this mean the heads of the schools at > any time the tornament is on are on the panel or does it mean > Dumbledore,Karkaroff and Maxime are always on the panel? Sueeeyqbong : I've always taken this to mean the former, ie that whoever is head at the time is on the panel. > > 2) Why does Moody (a.k.a crouch) teach them the unforgivable curses? > why does he make sure Harry can fight off the imperious curse? > Surely this is a hinderance to LV? Sueeeyqbong : Yeah, this makes no sense to me...maybe it's just one of those things we're not mentioned to question too closely, or else the theory behind it falls apart, but, to me, it sounds like a significant puzzle that might be addressed later in the books. When reading your post, it also lead me to ponder on whether Voldemort will turn out to be the biggest 'baddy' after all, or whether there may be someone else in the wings who will turn out to be an even greater threat than Voldemort. Everyone's attentions during the series so far have been intensely focused on Voldemort/Riddle as the main adversary. Wouldn't it be a great plot device if it turned out that we may have been looking in the wrong direction all along? Barty Crouch junior would have been a great candidate for the 'even more evil than Voldemort' role, though of course, he's out of the action since the end of GoF...presumably. Anyone else got anything to add to this? > 3) How did the Riddles die? it says they looked shocked-did they die > from looking at the basilik? or is Nagini not a basilik?Im confused!! Sueeyqbong : I've always assumed that this was 'avada kedavra'...neat and tidy, over too quickly for anyone to run, etc. Could be wrong though. Best regards, everyone! Sue From sue at simiant.com Thu Aug 7 13:17:18 2003 From: sue at simiant.com (sueeeyqbong) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:17:18 -0000 Subject: Myrtle an Evans? (was: Is Lily Voldemort daughter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > Don't really know if something like this has been mentioned here. If > it has, sorry for the repetition... > > Ok, maybe she has already served her purpose and there really is > nothing more to her. But, what if there is more? A last name has > not been given yet (has it?) so could Moaning Myrtle be an Evans? Sueeeyqbong : It's a great theory, but wouldn't this mean that Myrtle would have appeared in the mirror of erised as part of the potter / evans family? I know that the possibility of what Harry saw in the mirror - being the product of his wishful thinking rather than actual historical reality - has already been discussed, and that one could find a rationale for most theories if one looks hard enough...but still...I'm not convinced on this one. Sue From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 13:17:51 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:17:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75839 > ME : WHERE is Harry supposed to have learnt all these things? >AmanitaMuscaria Thank you! I think we can all agree that the Dursleys were not a good portrait of "how to have a loving relationship when youre Harry Potter" and since they made Harry feel worthless all of his life, he lacks the self esteem to even start from square one. Wheneve he saw other kids together in the books, it was like he was talking about a novelty or foreign being. It is part of Harry being Harry-- he isn't the stuck up star, and he isn't the ladies man. ^v^Blyx^v^ Who would like to see more of Bill Weasley. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 13:18:45 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:18:45 -0000 Subject: Hints that Sirus would die In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > Geoff: > > Yes, but I think this was JKR having one of her word games with > place > > names as with Diagon Alley, Knockturn Alley and Durmstrang etc. > > > > It has already been pointed out that Grimmauld Place is "Grim Old > > Place". I wonder whether this was put into JKR's mind by the fact > > that she started writing the book when she was in Edinburgh and > this > > city is sometimes nicknamed "Auld Reekie" by the Scots. > Lori: > and what were the word plays on the others? I missed those, here we > have a river we lovingly call "Big Muddy". So I guess that happens > every where one lives, or visits. Lori Geoff: Diagon Alley is from "diagonally" - you notice HP calls it that in the COS film when he uses Floo powder at The Burrow, Knockturn Alley is from "nocturnally". Durmstrang is quite a clever one. There was a style of drama and art - Beethoven was an exponent - called "Sturm und Drang" = storm and stress. JKR has spoonerised this to get the school name. Beauxbatons also means "lovely wands". JKR is quite cleve and mischievious with her names. I can imagine her sitting, tongue in cheek, thinking "what name can I think up to amuse the observant?" From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 13:21:11 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:21:11 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "malinitosetti" wrote: > > > > > Geoff: > > > > My ancient battered old "Concise Oxford French Dictionary" > > gives "vol" as flight and as an alternative to "aile" for wing..... > > > > Geoff > > Sorry to contradict you Geoff, but believe me, French is my mother > tongue (I live in a French speaking country!) and vol does in no way > mean wing... Ce n'est pas moi, mon ami! It's the Oxford Dictionary in which any self-respecting Brit places enormous faith - after all Tolkien worked for the firm after the First World War1. Ah, you just can't get the staff..... From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 13:25:50 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:25:50 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75842 Marianne: > Did any characters make this accusation other than Molly? I don't > recall if this sentiment was also echoed by Hermione. > > I never felt for an instant that Sirius looked at or talked to Harry > and thought he was interacting with James. I do think he made > comparisons in his mind between the two, and I also think he was well > along on the down-side of the scale of depression, but I don't think > he was delusional. > > The clearest instance of Sirius making comparisons was when Harry > told him he shouldn't come up for the next Hogsmeade weekend. > Harry's reaction was clearly not what James' reaction would have been > and it disappointed Sirius that Harry didn't respond to the > suggestion as James would have. "You're less like your father than I > thought." I didn't read that as Sirius suddenly becoming aware that > he was speaking to Harry and not James, but rather a realization, > that Harry is his own person and that sometimes he'll act like or > think like James, and sometimes he won't. > > And, as far as Sirius thinking that Harry had many of James' traits > in his behavior and skills, that did exist as early as PoA. When > Harry and Hermione arrived in a rush at the Shack, Sirius says that > is exactly what James would have done. Harry takes that as a taunt, > but I believe Sirius meant it exactly as stated. And, later he says > that Harry flies as well as James. Finally, as he escaped with > Buckbeak, Sirius tells Harry that he's truly his father's son. None > of this strikes me as evidence that Sirius was confusing the two > Potters in his mind. > > I guess it's time to do my third re-read of OoP, because the only > instance I can think of where this accusation is made is by Molly in > the kitchen scene when Harry first arrives at Grimmauld Place. > > Marianne I don't have the book on me, but I at m sure Hermione said something about Sirius comparing Harry to James, and confusing them,w hen they were discussing Sirius's support for the DA. also, though I don't think Sirius is confusing the two Potters, I do think he's forgetting what situation Harry's in as compared to James - when james took risks, it was against being expelled, or getting detention etc. If Harry takes risks, it's about getting expulsion, putting the order at risk, death...and also that Harry really does ahve to worry about others e.g Sirius getting caught if he did come up to Hogsmede. I just think sirius sometimes forgot that Harry wasn't in such a carefree position as James, and he's got a lot more to loose by takin risks for the fun of it. From original_gt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 13:26:54 2003 From: original_gt at yahoo.com (flying_meese) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:26:54 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: <20030807112816.55804.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was a > book specifically for potions mentioned in one of the > books. I know there has been some speculation about a > Jiggers writting a book, but as I'm not with my books > right now, I can't look it up. > > And I do not think that the DA will contiunue as it > was. Dumbledore, after failing Sirius, will wonder > about Lupin and bring him back to Hogwarts as an > assistant to DADA. Then I would see him taking the DA > over from Harry. Harry would not see this as a problem > as he likes Lupin so much. > > ===== > "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables > Are you refering to an actual potions textbook? I can't remember if one is mentioned. I do remember Moste Potente Potions which is the book from the restricted section that they got the Polyjuice potion from in COS. From original_gt at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 13:31:06 2003 From: original_gt at yahoo.com (flying_meese) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:31:06 -0000 Subject: Runes(?) on cover art (for Random) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica" wrote: > Random, I've tried emailing you off list but the messages kept on > coming back as 'undeliverable', anywho, I don't have the facilities > to scan the back cover art ("Children's" cover version for OotP), > however, I've found something on the web and I've attached a link. > Up at the top there is a smattering of 'symbols' some of which are > the same as symbols found in the runic alphabet and others, well, I > still haven't identified them. > > > http://www.store.indiatimes.com/book/PlanetMBookLookInside.jsp? > audbookid=aub00001412 > > > Cheers, > Erica They are down right now, but mugglenet.com, I believe, has images of most of the covers for the HP books from just about every language they have been published in. From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 13:48:23 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (Zeynep Oner) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 06:48:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who did Bertha see kissing Florence? Lucius Malfoy In-Reply-To: <1060262763.9423.43845.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030807134823.50100.qmail@web12503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75845 > --- Wendy St John > wrote: > > ~RSFJenny :) wrote: > > > > "I know it's been mentioned often enough that > others > > think there's got to > > be > > some reason we saw Bertha in DD's pensieve in GoF. > > > > An'nai Jiriki wrote > > Where is this in the books? I've read them several > times, but still miss them. Can anyone point out the > book, chapter, and page if possible? I write: It's in GoF when Dumbledore shows Harry his pensieve. I had discusswed this with my friends and the consensus is that the guy is Snape. He would put a curse on an Bertha, and the most fun fact is that once, I think, it was rumoured that in the 6. book we would meet a former love of Snape. I was so excited to learn that a female DADA teacher came, and was rather disappointed not to see any action for the old boy. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 13:53:00 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 13:53:00 -0000 Subject: Runes(?) on cover art (for Random) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75846 Since J.K.R. does her magic homework, I thought it might be good to post this link: http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/runepoems.html or this one: http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/24runepoems.html which deals with the rune poems. I would also reccomend: Runelore by Edred Thorsson This site: http://www.y2012.de/fragments/runes.html borrows heavily from it, and if you feel like the reading, can help anyone understand runes beyond the silly shinny bag of rocks you get at the local bookstore.... and may provide further Harry Hints! ^v^Blyx^v^ From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Aug 7 14:12:07 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:12:07 +0100 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? Message-ID: <20D33894-C8E1-11D7-A1C7-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75847 Lots of scope for speculation here. Pick your favourite for doing the dirty! But when you do, ask yourself - what is their motivation? In the series so far betrayal has been a major device, but with few betrayals. Pettigrew claimed he was in fear for his life, which seems a bit weak to me. He was a member of the Order, from which he could have claimed protection. He didn't. He was also under the eye and within range of Dumbledores Legilimancy, yet he passed information to the enemy for a year before the Godrics Hollow incident without detection. Is this likely? Now I'm a dyed in the wool sceptic. I refuse to believe that DD was not aware of Pettigrews actions. In an intelligence war, disinformation is a valid weapon. It is quite possible that DD was using him as a conduit for information that DD wanted Voldemort to have. Snape also switched sides; why, we're not certain. Voldy was on an upward curve, two years before his downfall. It was possible he could win, but Snape left. No credible motive is mentioned in canon, but I firmly believe it was not a matter of principle. It was personal. Percy too has committed a minor form of betrayal, but for him it was a matter of principle - the primacy of the Ministry. Yes, he may benefit, but remember he did not stay with his family and inform on them and their friends, which was probably what Fudge had hoped for. Now for the current crop of potential traitors. Lots of votes for ESE!Ron. Either crossed in love or for love of money. Since JKR resolutely continues to treat her students as fairly realistic young teenagers rather than the cast of an adult sit-com, I don't see grand passion as a major plot device. Money? Credible two books back, but not now. Five of the seven children are off their hands, so Arthur and Mollys' finances must be a lot easier, and if he needs more then he can call on his entreprenurial brothers. Low odds on Ron. Hermione would be a sneaky possibility with another author. How do you imagine she would react if Voldy arranged to free all the House Elves if she helped him? Would the principle of universal freedom over-ride any consideration for individuals? She could console herself with the thought of the greatest good for the greatest number. BUT, with this author, forget it. JKR has admitted that Hermione is the personification of herself when younger. Would she depict herself as a traitor? No. Tonks gets mentioned. What's the motivation? A link to the Black family? Blames Harry for the death of her cousin? Not strong. I see her as an upcoming major casualty more than anything else. That clumsiness will be the death of her. Lupin is in the frame for many. Well, maybe. But he's written as a victim character. The butt of unwarranted prejudice and dogged(!) by ill health. The victim loses sympathy when he joins the enemy; suddenly the prejudice becomes warranted and strengthened. Scrub Lupin. Molly? It all seems to be based on the Boggart scene. She's a mother, anxiety attacks are allowed when her family is in danger. No, she wouldn't trust any promise Voldy made. She's just reconciling herself to the fact that she's going to lose loved ones. Mothers know that the young always die in a war. To my mind the character most likely to fall for manipulation by Voldemort is Harry. V has already got at him in a minor way, but have the protecting Occlumancy lessons continued? Apparently not. He is mighty upset with DD, with the Order, with everybody. Nobody understands! I'm just a pawn! Nobody tells me anything! The Order itself means very little to him. Some of the people in it, yes, they matter. But the Order as an organisation - they let Sirius die! they employ Snape! they treat me as a child! they don't *do* anything! The fall-out from teenage angst and an 'I'll show 'em!' spasm would have horrible consequences, even if it was short lived. And think of the BANG from that plot! Don't forget Dumbledore. Would he sacrifice the Order if it meant the defeat of Voldemort? You bet he would. He's the only one who constantly keeps his eye on the big picture. What matters? Defeating Voldemort. How? Any way we can. Oh, it would be with regret and remorse, but with no hesitation. None of this takes into consideration the other plot device. The *apparent* betrayal, a monster red herring, where we don't find out until afterwards that it was a set-up. Anyone could star in that one. Oh, it's going to be a fun time now that the predictions for books 6 and 7 have got going! Kneasy From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Thu Aug 7 14:12:01 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:12:01 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ffimiles" wrote: >Big Snip here: > I don't have the book on me, but I at m sure Hermione said something > about Sirius comparing Harry to James, and confusing them,w hen they > were discussing Sirius's support for the DA. > > also, though I don't think Sirius is confusing the two Potters, I do > think he's forgetting what situation Harry's in as compared to James - > when james took risks, it was against being expelled, or getting > detention etc. If Harry takes risks, it's about getting expulsion, > putting the order at risk, death...and also that Harry really does > ahve to worry about others e.g Sirius getting caught if he did come > up to Hogsmede. I just think sirius sometimes forgot that Harry > wasn't in such a carefree position as James, and he's got a lot more > to loose by takin risks for the fun of it. Me: Hermione thought that Sirius was living through the three of them (HRH) and that he'd become reckless after being cooped up in Grimmauld Place (p. 378, Scholastic ed.). It was Ron that accused her of sounding like his mum. Hermy never accused Sirius of confusing Harry and James. Jennifer From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 14:32:31 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:32:31 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > Harry certainly did much better in potions OWLs than he thinks he did, > but there is no way he achieved 'Outstanding'. Even 'Exceeds > Expectations', while possible, is pushing it. How do you know he didn't? Did JKR tell you or do you have some pipe line into her head because frankly it is far too early to be making absolute statements like this. If anything there is a high chance that he actually got the O in potions since Snape isn't grading the thing and in the regular potions class Snape grades him much harder and harsher than any of the other Gryffindor aside possibly from Neville Longbottom. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Aug 7 14:34:09 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:34:09 +0100 Subject: Tactics and Prescience (was Why Bella didn't disapparate) Message-ID: <34979F30-C8E4-11D7-A1C7-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75850 Talisman wrote: I take the occasion to note that in such a "grownup" environment, with so many outraged posts about predjudice, ageism has always been in full flower. I doubt not that our stiletto-wielding Author expects many cheerfully S.P.E.W.-buttoned readers to accept this rationale, because they themselves equate age with foolishness. Dumbledore is nobody's fool. You cannot read his excuses and compare them to what you actually know from the texts without realizing that he is lying a great deal of the time. No, Dumbledore knows--more than we do--what is going on and he is controlling the action to a great extent. Those readers who have seen some small lapse (always inconsequential) and have comforted themselves with the notion that Dumbledore is a dottering old Santa who can no longer chew what he has bitten off, are likely to be bitten in the behind. Therefore, the author comprehends Dumbledore to act both omissively and comissively--with intention--to prepare Harry for "what is to come." She does not say, "well he's getting older you know, screwing up a bit . . ." Now me: Talisman, you have my whole-hearted agreement (so far!) DD is the puppetmaster, without a doubt; I've always believed that he's lied even if by omission rather than commission. I also believe he's cold blooded enough to make necessary sacrifices that the readers might be horrified by. (It is with regret that we announce the untimely deaths of Mr & Mrs James Potter...) He burbles on about truth being precious, well, I have a couple of quotes that might be apposite:- "In wartime, truth is so precious that she should always be attended by a bodyguard of lies." "Age and mendacity beats youth and enthusiasm any day of the week." Kneasy Boring Old Fart and proud of it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 7 14:34:08 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:34:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What if (was Re: Runes(?) on cover art (for Random)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807143408.19905.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75851 Is there a connection between Harry's scare, runes and the 'protection' Lily gives Harry? In looking further into the runes it appears the Eiwaz, the rune of defense, as mention by Hermione is also associated with Protection. http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/eiwaz.htm What if *thats* what Lily did for Harry. What if she involked Harry's Protection by drawing (with her finger) the Eiwaz rune on Harry's forehead (which sort a looks like a lightning bolt) along with copious amounts of that force that "... is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all". Then when Voldie tries to kill Harry the power of that curse is absorbed into the rune and spat back out again, permanently scaring Harry. The rune itself means 'Yew' which among, other things, Voldies wand wood. Anywho, Just a thought. Erica sleepingblyx wrote: Since J.K.R. does her magic homework, I thought it might be good to post this link: http://home.earthlink.net/~wodensharrow/runepoems.html or this one: http://www.angelfire.com/on/Wodensharrow/24runepoems.html which deals with the rune poems. I would also reccomend: Runelore by Edred Thorsson This site: http://www.y2012.de/fragments/runes.html borrows heavily from it, and if you feel like the reading, can help anyone understand runes beyond the silly shinny bag of rocks you get at the local bookstore.... and may provide further Harry Hints! ^v^Blyx^v^ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Snape snorted. "A very short chapter (of the book "Quidditch in Bed"), addressed to the assumed male reader, about how you can tell what the score is and whether it's a real one...followed by an even shorter chapter entitled 'Your Witch and the Snitch', wherin the authors try very hard to explain the idea that it isn't all about getting the Quaffle through the Hoop.' 'Why Slytherins Are Sexier' by textualpshinx --------------------------------- Post your free ad now! Yahoo! Canada Personals [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ajlboston at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 14:34:19 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:34:19 -0000 Subject: Love meant Wolf? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75852 Yesterday, recalling various theories about Luna Lovegood and werewolves, I remembered that I have met several people with surname Love, and was told by one of them that it doesn't mean Love, but used to be some form of Wolf. So, had to say that! A.J. From magicroxx at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 14:35:32 2003 From: magicroxx at yahoo.com (magicroxx) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:35:32 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fire_fly107" wrote: why does he prevent Harry from going through the veil? Claire: I guess I'm just wondering what the suspicious details at the end of PoA were. It seems pretty obvious to me why Lupin stopped Harry from following Sirius behind the viel, if you die if you cross it, which I'm assuming is how it works. -Clair Roxx writes: Looking back at it though, it may have been interesting to see Harry go through the veil, he woudn't have died, because Voldemort wouldn't have pushed him. I wasn't a huge fan of the idea that Harry will cross that barrier, but now I think he might. He is free to do it. As for who is going to betray the order, I think it is going to someone fairly insignificant. My reasoning is that there are parallels between this war and the last and Wormtail wasn't very significant. I am betting on Dedulus Diggle, he lives fairly close to Harry, in Kent. (I no nothing of the English map). I just remember on the muggle news in book 1, there were shooting stars over kent and McGonagall said it was him, he saw Harry in a shop and bowed to him. He doesn't seem to be too critical in the plot and yet he is seems to be a weak character. If his life were put on the line, I think he would crack. Roxx From ajlboston at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 14:36:43 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:36:43 -0000 Subject: Who did Bertha see kissing Florence? Lucius Malfoy, anyone?? In-Reply-To: <20030807112002.2006.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > > --- Wendy St John > wrote: > > ~RSFJenny :) wrote: > > > > "I know it's been mentioned often enough that others > > think there's got to > > be > > some reason we saw Bertha in DD's pensieve in GoF. > > > > > Where is this in the books? I've read them several > times, but still miss them. Can anyone point out the > book, chapter, and page if possible? > It's in The Pensieve in GOF- DD brings out a memory for Harry to see, of Bertha Jorkins after someone had hexed her. (On that scene, people have even theorized that Florence was being bitten by a vampire or vice versa, or that Snape or Sirius was the one engaged in the kiss, or that Florence is related to Firenze... Whatever... Hey, maybe Snape's not a vampire or dhampire, but merely had been bitten once or twice... but I digress) A.J. From magicroxx at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 14:44:58 2003 From: magicroxx at yahoo.com (magicroxx) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:44:58 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew the murderer? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75855 Something has been bothering me since POA and that is if Peter was supposed was supposed to be such a weak wizard, then how did he blast half the street away and kill all those people? I don't see how this could have happened. I don't have the books with me because I am at work. Also, he just cuts his finger off, blasts the street apart and then tranforms into a rat and runs away. He was so squimish about cutting his hand off that I think Sirius would have realized what he was going to do and have been able to stop him. At first I thought maybe Voldemort could have been possessing him, but he was a little.....under the weather at that moment. Could there have been someone else there? Roxx From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Thu Aug 7 14:53:26 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:53:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75856 Allie: Just out of curiosity- did it seem to everyone else that the Ron/Hermione (or even H/H) angle was VERY downplayed in OoP? I wondered why, when it seemed like it was so set up after GoF. Joj: I wondered the same thing. It would have been easy to add a few lines, especially since R/H spent so much time together. Harry could have noticed a closer bond between them and felt more left out. JKR didn?t do that, and there has to be a reason. Allie: The closest Harry has ever come to showing interest in Hermione is when he says in OoP that he doesn't think she's ugly. :) Joj: The only thing I noticed, was when Ron and Harry had their fight in GOF, Hermione stuck with Harry. I?m sure she spent time with Ron, but when the three were in the same place, she was with Harry. I?m sure it was because she believed Harry and thought Ron was wrong, but it still stood out to me. Also, to my knowledge, nobody has ever thought Ron was Hermione?s boyfriend. It?s happened with Harry a lot. (Rita, Mrs. Weasley, Krum and Cho). She spends just as much time with Ron. (more in OOP) Just something I noticed. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mbush at lainc.com Thu Aug 7 15:00:27 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:00:27 -0000 Subject: Inheritance & other thoughts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75857 Much Snippage of Mtwelovett & B Arrowsmith (Kneasy) Kneasy wrote: > > At the end of PS, Hagrid says that he sent messages round to friends of > James and Lily asking for photographs. So far we've met just*one* who > was in a position to reply - Lupin. Sirius was in Azkaban, Pettigrew > was rodentially occupied and the Longbottoms (presuming they were > friends, which is reasonable), were in St Mungos. Who were the others > and are they going to sneak up on us? > > Theoretically, any parent of children around Harry's age could qualify; > the Diggorys, the Lovegoods etc. Well, photos could prusumably come from any member of the order (or others) which would include, Dumbledore, McGonnagal, Neville's Gran probably has Frank and Alice's "stuff" so would be capable of providing photos for Harry, Mrs Figg keeps photos we know, so she could have provided some as well. (Maybe wizards in Photos disguise themselves as Cats in Photos when they can't be revealed... only joking really), Maybe Pettigrew's mum is still alive and she had some from when little Peter was at school with his chums. Also there is Deadleus Diggle who keeps poppping up and is a member of the "old crowd" and we haven't seen a lot of action from him.... and as you say, there were other wizards of their year that could come into play as well. There are also two other characters > that could re-appear who fit the age bracket:- > 1. Lockhart. I've a feeling we're not finished with him - selfish, > manipulative, currently mentally incompetent but recovering. > 2. Bagman. Another dubious type, linked to James through Quidditch. > Could make some lovely plot lines with these, but it's a bit late in > the series. They'll be back, I don't doubt, but not in this role. Agreed since, Lockheart being the git that he is, would probably have said something about James (probably not in the most favorable light) being at school with him while he was DADA professor (probably during one of those little chats he had with Harry but trying to show himself in a much better light than James... "Oh yes, I played Quidditch with your father, he 'assisted' me in winning the Cup." or whatever) > > Now, Mark Evans. I'm suspicious. Evans isn't an uncommon name and JKR > admitted in the Paxman interview that there were red herrings in OoP. > I'd put him at the top of the fishy list. Remember Hagrid in the Hut on > the Rock? He implied that the automatic protective magic that Harry had > as a child is not unusual; that it showed he was a wizard. Neville > showed it too. If Mark Evans was a wizard, I don't think Dudders > *could* beat him up. VERY good point, but I wouldn't write him off just yet. Definate "Fishy List" though. The thing about the "protective magic", is that we don't know that Dudly for example can't touch Harry at all, in fact quite the opposite. We clearly know that Harry was used as a punching bag for Dudley, (look in early chapters of OOP, where they are talking about Dudley's new found sport, as well as in SS) and if these magical incidents were "all the time" people including Dudley would be much more suspicious of Harry than they are, especially if Dudley couldn't lay a finger on him.. he'd be much differnt towards Harry even by the time time they were 10. It seems to be a protection that comes out at times in perhaps more extreme circumstances. We aren't getting any details of the Mark Evans bullying session, so all we know is they tried, and possibly did manage to get a punch or two in, the real question would be what would happen if they tried again? Maybe they did and he "escaped" by jumping to the roof or something similar, knowing the danger this time, but still not knowing how he did it...like Harry.. his incident at school was the whole gang, and not just Dudley. > > For guardianship, the absolutely *key* question - who gave Hagrid the > key to Harrys' vault? DD is the likeliest suspect. But it's odd that > he's never suggested Harry visit Godrics Hollow, or even mentioned it > by name, so far as I can recall. Well, if Godric's Holow is not near Hogwarts, nor is it near the Dursley's it may very well be too dangerous for Harry to "visit" since, especially now, it is a spot for Voldie to watch knowing Harry may return there and would be an "easy target". No Petunia protection, no Dumbledore/Hogwarts protection. I do think Dumbledore is likeliest source for the key, and Hagrid had another errand at Gringotts for Dumbledore that day as well. We don't know what all that note to Gryphook (is that the right one? or is that the one that took them to the vault?) said either, and it may not have solely been about the stone. > > There's always the possibility that Godrics Hollow was not the Potters > home, but a safe house, a hide-out, a bit like Grimmauld Place. I always read Godrics Hollow as a town not the name of a cottage or house. So even if you know the Potters are in Goderics Hollow, you may not be able to find their specific house without the "permission" from the secret keeper(or however that works because that does raise questions about who knew who the secret keeper was, unless you can still know where it was if you knew where it was before the charm was cast. Like if Dumbledore picked out the house for them or something, would he still know where it was once the charm had been done?) But does that mean they were shut up like the Franks and so many other jews in Natzi times, or are they free to move about but not be found by the Death Eaters and Voldermort? And we still don't really know why Voldie was after the Potters in the first place sice they have "fought" (not the prophacy word) him three times before the prophacy even came into being. ... Dumbledore did NOT tell all, but we already knew that. I still think Dumbledore holds the *key* in more ways than one... Mtwelovett From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 15:05:52 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:05:52 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew the murderer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magicroxx" wrote: > Something has been bothering me since POA and that is if Peter was > supposed was supposed to be such a weak wizard, then how did he blast > half the street away and kill all those people? I don't see how this > could have happened. I don't have the books with me because I am at > work. Also, he just cuts his finger off, blasts the street apart and > then tranforms into a rat and runs away. He was so squimish about > cutting his hand off that I think Sirius would have realized what he > was going to do and have been able to stop him. > > At first I thought maybe Voldemort could have been possessing him, > but he was a little.....under the weather at that moment. Could there > have been someone else there? > > Roxx I think Pettigrew, though weak and talentless, could have and did learn some tricks from Voldemort, as he tries to argue that very thing about Sirius in the Shrieking Shack. Maybe when he makes that statement he's thinking of the things he himself learned. It would have helped him blow apart the street and kill a bunch of muggles. As for Pettigrew being squeamish about cutting off his hand in GoF and not seeming to have that problem when Sirius found him, well, Sirius was going to kill Peter. I have no doubt about that. Peter knew his life was in imminent danger. He did what he had to in order to save himself. Hmm...actually now that I think about it, that doesn't fit with Pettigrew yelling that Sirius betrayed the Potters. That seems more thought out. Okay, so Pettigrew knew Sirius would pursue him, so he made some plans in advance, like accusing Sirius and knowing he'd have to disappear quickly, the spell to kill the muggles. Maybe he had time to get used to the idea of cutting off his finger. Yes, yes, he must have planned at least part of what he did, because he knew enough to leave "evidence" that he was dead. He also blew up a street, killing a bunch of people while leaving Sirius alive and well so he could take the punishment for the Potters' deaths. Being in Voldemort's service taught him some things and maybe he felt a bit more powerful with such a strong and powerful leader. KathyK From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 15:07:25 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 08:07:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807150725.2040.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75859 --- ffimiles wrote: > Marianne: > > Did any characters make this accusation other than > Molly? I don't > > recall if this sentiment was also echoed by > Hermione. > > > > I never felt for an instant that Sirius looked at > or talked to > Harry > > and thought he was interacting with James. I do > think he made > > comparisons in his mind between the two, and I > also think he was > well > > along on the down-side of the scale of depression, > but I don't > think > > he was delusional. I don't think Sirius was delusional. I think by "thinking Harry was James" he was thinking that despite their different backgrounds, Harry would think, act, and react exactly as James would. He didn't think the kid standing in front of him was James, but he thought he was a younger James named Harry. In the Harry/Sirius relationship, it always seemed to me that neither chose the other for the right reason. Harry's affection for Sirius came when he didn't even know him, soley because Sirius was his father's best friend. He finds that out and "poof" he loves the guy. And Sirius, even in the end, seemed to care more because Harry was James' son than because Harry was Harry. It wasn't based on what they were to each other so much as what they were to James. Rebecca ps, sorry if this comes through twice, I had trouble sending ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Thu Aug 7 15:18:20 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 11:18:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75860 Roxx writes: As for who is going to betray the order, I think it is going to someone fairly insignificant. Joj: I agree, but I think someone more significant will have the Imperious curse put on them. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 15:44:08 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:44:08 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75861 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > Allie: > Just out of curiosity- did it seem to everyone else that the > Ron/Hermione (or even H/H) angle was VERY downplayed in OoP? I > wondered why, when it seemed like it was so set up after GoF. > > > Joj: > I wondered the same thing. It would have been easy to add a few lines, > especially since R/H spent so much time together. Harry could have noticed > a closer bond between them and felt more left out. JKR didn't do that, and > there has to be a reason. Christy: I think that like any friends that are forming a more serious relationship, it isn't noticed as much at first. I think that Ron and Hermione spend a lot of time together and that is noticed to some extent. Remember in GoF when Ron and Harry are looking for dates, Lavender (I think) assumes that Ron is going with Hermione and is actually surprised when she isn't. And Harry is preoccupied with Cho, as well. I don't think that Jo has left it out for a reason, other than it hasn't been Harry's main focus. Since everything is filtered through Harry I think that part of our not seeing it yet is that Harry hasn't been paying much attention to it. Yet. Every book shows the relationship seeming to progress a bit, so we may still see Ron and Hermione together. Christy From darkthirty at shaw.ca Thu Aug 7 15:45:35 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (lunalovegoodrules) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:45:35 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75862 > Talisman, who's off to tickle the giant squid. > > P.S. > Considering the line, "It was foolish to come here tonight, Tom" > said Dumbledore calmly." (OoP 813) Sure there is the debunking > aspect (You can prance around calling yourself the Dark Lord, but > you'll always be Tom to me . . .), but did anyone else hear sorrow, > compassion, even affection in that intimacey? I'm sensing more of > that "magic at its deepest [and] most impenetrable." (PoA 427) Well, it would seem to me we need to know a little more about how Dumbledore "defeated" Grindelwald. If that is what he is most famous for (thanks to the Quibbler?), if that is why Voldemort fears him, then Harry's next question should be, and one of his previous questions should have been, "what did you do?" But Harry doesn't ask these questions, in the Parsifal aspects of his role. Nor does he ask about the socks at erised, which was the first of these unasked questions that I noticed, and was really the beginning of my questioning the problematic role of knowledge in Rowling. I replied to one of you previous posts regarding this, but I need to add that, as part of this problematic, Harry shows no interest in history (learning from mistakes? not repeating it? etc.), no interest in archived newspaper articles, etc. In some rather roundabout way, perhaps it is the wild fancies of Luna, with the eagle and the lion hats, who has been introduced as, I am assuming, a missing key to Potter's liberation (from the closet, from ignorance, what have you) that will usher in the resolution. In this sense, Dumbledore's campaign will be affected by the DA, how I'm not sure. His taking it on could, I suppose, suggest collusion with Hermione, but it seemed rather a compromise. And my sense is that the DA will, in some measure, supplant the OOP. Enough for now. dan From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 15:50:55 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:50:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > Allie: > Just out of curiosity- did it seem to everyone else that the > Ron/Hermione (or even H/H) angle was VERY downplayed in OoP? I > wondered why, when it seemed like it was so set up after GoF. > > > Joj: > I wondered the same thing. It would have been easy to add a few lines, > especially since R/H spent so much time together. Harry could have noticed > a closer bond between them and felt more left out. JKR didn't do that, and > there has to be a reason. > > > > Allie: > The closest Harry has ever come to showing interest in Hermione is > when he says in OoP that he doesn't think she's ugly. :) > > > Joj: > The only thing I noticed, was when Ron and Harry had their fight in GOF, > Hermione stuck with Harry. I'm sure she spent time with Ron, but when the > three were in the same place, she was with Harry. I'm sure it was because > she believed Harry and thought Ron was wrong, but it still stood out to me. > Also, to my knowledge, nobody has ever thought Ron was Hermione's boyfriend. > It's happened with Harry a lot. (Rita, Mrs. Weasley, Krum and Cho). She > spends just as much time with Ron. (more in OOP) Just something I noticed. > > Joj > Rita invented the couple story because she knew "Harry in Love" would sell a lot of papers - and Harry spends time with only one girl, Hermione. Mrs. Weasley only thought of Harry & Hermione as a couple because of Rita (she's very protective of Harry) Cho and Krum's reasons and motives are pretty obvious Who Harry dates is headline news. Who Ron dates wouldn't even make for good gossip. Ron & Hermione could've gotten engaged in OotP and I don't think the news would've traveled past the Gryffindor common room. All this may change now that he's on the quidditch team though. I see Ron coming out of his friends' shadows in book 6 and becoming a little more gossip-worthy. -QoE From mbush at lainc.com Thu Aug 7 16:24:42 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:24:42 -0000 Subject: What if (was Re: Runes(?) on cover art (for Random)) In-Reply-To: <20030807143408.19905.qmail@web13607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Erica wrote: > Is there a connection between Harry's scare, runes and the 'protection' Lily gives Harry? > > In looking further into the runes it appears the Eiwaz, the rune of defense, as mention by Hermione is also associated with Protection. > > http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/eiwaz.htm > > What if *thats* what Lily did for Harry. What if she involked Harry's Protection by drawing (with her finger) the Eiwaz rune on Harry's forehead (which sort a looks like a lightning bolt) along with copious amounts of that force that > > "... is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all". > > Then when Voldie tries to kill Harry the power of that curse is absorbed into the rune and spat back out again, permanently scaring Harry. The rune itself means 'Yew' which among, other things, Voldies wand wood. > > Anywho, > > Just a thought. > > Erica Wow Erica! What an interesting thought. That what eveyone has assumed to be a mark from Voldermort is really one from his mother that adds to the protectiveness. You may be on to something... Wasn't Eiwaz one of the Runes one of them got confused with something else during either their studying for OWLs or during their OWLs? or am I thinking of something else entirely? (I don't have the book here with me... ) if so, could this be a clue? Mtwelovett From mbush at lainc.com Thu Aug 7 16:37:26 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:37:26 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75865 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki > wrote: > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was a > > book specifically for potions mentioned in one of the > > books. I know there has been some speculation about a > > Jiggers writting a book, but as I'm not with my books > > right now, I can't look it up. There is, I believe, a book by an Arsenius Jigger (Spelling?) but I don't recall off the top of my head what the title of the book was. I always thought this was a very cleverly funny name and think it applies to a potions book since Arsenius reminds me of Arsenic (a possible, if perhaps lethal, potion ingredient) and Jigger which refers either to a measure of liquid or the instrument used to measure x amount (not sure which). (Bartending tool, which is essentially what potions is...mixing drinks... hehehe... ) I love JK and her naming of things ;) Mtwelovett From LapHuntress at comcast.net Thu Aug 7 15:57:14 2003 From: LapHuntress at comcast.net (Eleri Hamilton) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 08:57:14 -0700 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <1060262763.9423.43845.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.0.20030807084240.009ff090@mail.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75866 At 01:26 PM 8/7/03 +0000, you wrote: >Message: 14 > Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:41:58 -0000 > From: "ffimiles" >Subject: Re: Godric's Hollow > > > > "Canon" doesn't help much in reference to this, but if you look up > > Godric Gryffindor on the Lexicon. you can see that they do make a > > mention of this. Also, one thought that did cross my mind. >Voldemort > > did go alone, because "he" was told where the "Potters" lived, and > > if he was told by Peter, which we know is true, then how did Hagrid > > and Dumbledore know where it was? If Peter told Dumbledore where >the > > house was, then why did Sirius go to Azkaban? Dumbledore said that > > he had known that Sirius was the Secret Keeper that he did not know > > that they had switched. Just a thought? > >Others can get into Grimmauld Place, even though Dumbledore is the >Secret Keper - they just read the paper written by him - so I suppose >Peter would have told sirius - but yes, come to think of it, how >would hagrid and Dumbledore know, as having Peter's permission to >enter would mean knowing he was the keeper - unless they only knew >the general area where the house was, and finding one absolutely >flattened, the secret betrayed means that others can know where the >house is then - the charm is broken? Hmm... Or maybe it was the freaking big "explosion" that tipped them off. Dumbledore was certainly keeping a close watch on Voldemort's movements. Once L&J are dead, the spell is broken, because they don't need hidden anymore, and their location isn't a secret. There may have been a moment when Dumbledore couldn't track Voldemort, put two and two together, and sent in the cavalry, but it was too late. I'd always made the assumption that Dumbledore was one of the first on the scene, along with MoM people, and that Harry was probably taken off to get checked over. Dumbledore would have needed time to track down the Dursley's, and make those arrangements, and then Hagrid brought Harry to Privet Drive from wherever they'd taken him for the interim. (St. Mungo's perhaps?) My book one is in a box somewhere :/ Eleri From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 16:46:43 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:46:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > > Mrs. Weasley only thought of Harry & Hermione as a couple > because of Rita (she's very protective of Harry) Why would Mrs. Weasley of all people believe an article by Skeeter, who had earlier wrote a less than credible article that made her husband look bad, about two kids that she has had over for the summer and one of them who is her son's best friend and who she knows fairly well unless she already found the idea of a relationship between Harry and Hermione believable? > All this may change now that > he's on the quidditch team though. I see Ron coming out of his > friends' shadows in book 6 and becoming a little more > gossip-worthy. The only way that Ronald managed to get out of Harry's shadow was not by his own achievement and merit, but because Harry got banned from quidditch and because Dumbledore didn't want to pile more responsibilities onto Harry. From shaw_steven at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 16:48:29 2003 From: shaw_steven at yahoo.com (shaw_steven) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:48:29 -0000 Subject: Aberforth Dumbledore and the shady side of WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75868 In GoF,Ch.24 when Dumbledore and HRH are trying to cheer up Hagrid: "An excellent point," said Professor Dumbledore. "My own brother, Aberforth, was prosecuted for practicing inappropriate charms on a goat. It was all over the papers, but did Aberforth hide? No, he did not! He held his head high and went about his business as usual! Of course, I'm not entirely sure he can read, so that may not have been bravery. . .." What if Aberforth's inappropriate charm was the attempt to remove a bezoar from someone else's goat? I know all you folks out there with dirty minds (scourgify mens!) probably read this as more than it should be. As we have seen from Mundungus, there is a black market for magical items. Perhaps Aberforth is the connection between Mundungus and Albus which brings them together. In OotP Ch. 5, Sirius said: 'He's useful,' Sirius muttered. 'Knows all the crooks - well, he would, seeing as he's one himself. But he's also very loyal to Dumbledore, who helped him out of a tight spot once. It pays to have someone like Dung around, he hears things we don't. This also lends credence to the theory that the bartender in the Hog's Head is Aberforth or some other member of the Order. I expect many of the members of the Order are involved in information gathering. Pubs and other gathering places would be monitored. Might Tom, the bartender at the Leaky Cauldron, or some other staff member also be a member? From yellows at aol.com Thu Aug 7 16:50:08 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:50:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF Mysteries Message-ID: <7A94628E.6E68F460.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75869 In a message dated 8/6/2003 4:23:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mhersheybar at hotmail.com writes: > Mhershey: > Or perhaps, Moody was testing Harry's strength, to see how > powerful > he actually was, so he could report back to LV. I think this is also very possible. He did play with Harry quite a lot. Or maybe he's just a psycho who likes to see the Unforgivables in action, and likes to see Harry Potter under the control of them. :) Brief Chronicles From shaw_steven at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 16:52:18 2003 From: shaw_steven at yahoo.com (shaw_steven) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:52:18 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.0.20030807084240.009ff090@mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75870 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Eleri Hamilton wrote: > At 01:26 PM 8/7/03 +0000, you wrote: > >Message: 14 > > Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 11:41:58 -0000 > > From: "ffimiles" > >Subject: Re: Godric's Hollow > > > > > >Others can get into Grimmauld Place, even though Dumbledore is the > >Secret Keper - they just read the paper written by him - so I suppose > >Peter would have told sirius - but yes, come to think of it, how > >would hagrid and Dumbledore know, as having Peter's permission to > >enter would mean knowing he was the keeper - unless they only knew > >the general area where the house was, and finding one absolutely > >flattened, the secret betrayed means that others can know where the > >house is then - the charm is broken? Hmm... > Or Peter simply cancelled the Fidelius Charm letting any and all know the whereabouts of the Potter home. This would be the simplest explanation since it wasn't common knowledge who was the secret keeper. He then gave Voldemort the location and the rest is canon! From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Thu Aug 7 17:01:04 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:01:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: <20030807150725.2040.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- ffimiles wrote: > > Marianne: > > > Did any characters make this accusation other than > > Molly? I don't > > > recall if this sentiment was also echoed by > > Hermione. > > > > > > I never felt for an instant that Sirius looked at > > or talked to > > Harry > > > and thought he was interacting with James. I do > > think he made > > > comparisons in his mind between the two, and I > > also think he was > > well > > > along on the down-side of the scale of depression, > > but I don't > > think > > > he was delusional. > > > I don't think Sirius was delusional. I think by > "thinking Harry was James" he was thinking that > despite their different backgrounds, Harry would > think, act, and react exactly as James would. He > didn't think the kid standing in front of him was > James, but he thought he was a younger James named > Harry. > > In the Harry/Sirius relationship, it always seemed to > me that neither chose the other for the right reason. > Harry's affection for Sirius came when he didn't even > know him, soley because Sirius was his father's best > friend. He finds that out and "poof" he loves the > guy. And Sirius, even in the end, seemed to care more > because Harry was James' son than because Harry was > Harry. It wasn't based on what they were to each > other so much as what they were to James. > > > Rebecca > > ps, sorry if this comes through twice, I had trouble sending > Jennifer must respond: You certainly know how to reduce things. You forget the entire Shrieking Shack scene was complicated and took a while to play out. Harry found out a load of things, not just that James and Sirius were best friends. And why do you assume he loved him? And if you want to call it love, I find it to be more like gratitude. Sirius offered him a home, not just a connection to his father. That thought was what initially made Harry so happy, happy enough to try to use the memory to bring forth a patronus. When he said good-by to Sirius at the top of the castle, it didn't seem he was saying good-by to someone he loved, but the hope of escaping the Dursleys. He mentions that for one hour he thought he'd be free to go live in the Wizarding World. The relationship with his godfather developed. Through letters over the summer. Through Sirius being there when he had no one else to confide in or get help from. Not in the hour plus he spent in the Shrieking Shack learning the truth about Sirius and Peter. I find it immensely hopeful that Harry was able to bond with someone after the life he'd lived, even if it seems rather too quick for you to believe. Jennifer From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 17:03:24 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:03:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <20D33894-C8E1-11D7-A1C7-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <20030807170324.83379.qmail@web20714.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75872 Kneasy wrote: Snip:Percy too has committed a minor form of betrayal, but for him it was a matter of principle - the primacy of the Ministry. Yes, he may benefit, but remember he did not stay with his family and inform on them and their friends, which was probably what Fudge had hoped for. My reply: Yes, but this is mainly because Percy was trying to be defiant. He did not want to believe that what his father was saying about Fudge using him was true. Thus, he had no problem leaving his parents. Rebellion? Maybe....But I think there is something more to Percy than that. However, Percy would not be a betrayal on the Order...he isn't in it. Nor do I see him really joining..he will stand along side Fudge. I think he will be the next Barty Crouch. His refusal to stand by Harry and Dumbledore is upsetting but it's not a betrayal. Snipet: Hermione would be a sneaky possibility with another author. How do you imagine she would react if Voldy arranged to free all the House Elves if she helped him? Would the principle of universal freedom over-ride any consideration for individuals? She could console herself with the thought of the greatest good for the greatest number. BUT, with this author, forget it. JKR has admitted that Hermione is the personification of herself when younger. Would she depict herself as a traitor? No. Now me: Very true. I can't see HErmione betraying the order. For one thing I think she's too smart for that. However, I do see her starting to be a hiderance to Harry in some ways. In OOP she was very cautious...not that this is a bad thing...but I think it might annoy Harry. Also, this might just be me...but does anyone else think Hermione is acting more and more like a snob? Snipet: To my mind the character most likely to fall for manipulation by Voldemort is Harry. V has already got at him in a minor way, but have the protecting Occlumancy lessons continued? Apparently not. He is mighty upset with DD, with the Order, with everybody. Nobody understands! I'm just a pawn! Nobody tells me anything! The Order itself means very little to him. Some of the people in it, yes, they matter. But the Order as an organisation - they let Sirius die! they employ Snape! they treat me as a child! they don't *do* anything! The fall-out from teenage angst and an 'I'll show 'em!' spasm would have horrible consequences, even if it was short lived. And think of the BANG from that plot! My reply: I saw this one coming from the beginning. No Harry will not stay on the dark side but what would happen if did consider it for a little bit. Let down his guard with the death eaters. Grant you he has turned them down before...but at that time he felt like he had a lot to live for. Now I'm not sure if he does. Somebody on here said the scariest thing is that Harry will learn not to love people to guard himself. I think this is true...we see him...we see him pulling away from his friends, from the order, from everyone at the end of the book. That is very scary to me. And what is more scary is that they aren't trying to help him. Only hermione and Luna seemed willing to talk to Harry about what had happened (adn Dumbledore sorry)...but Ron...he wouldn't let the conversation take place. The truth is maybe they don't realize it..but feelings as deep as Harry's they don't just dissappear. He's a strong kid, but he's not that strong...he's a scared, lonely little boy and he has every right to be! Unless he gets his frustrations out...I see the biggest threat to Harry..being quite simply himself. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 17:04:56 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:04:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Harry and Cho In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Judy" > wrote: > > > > > Now, me, > > > > > > This criticism is a bit harsh, don't you think? Harry was > > sincerely > > > lost with a girl he fancied. He just wanted to be with her. > > > > He shows little internal interest in her which means he had little > to > > none. Instead he shows an interest in having her be interested in > > him. I am not saying it is not common or normal. I am only saying > > that it is also shallow and if Cho were real- cruel. I would not > want > > to be liked by Harry in such a way. Besides, no matter how many > boys > > are this shallow at 15, many are not. Why is it shallow to be physically attracted to someone. It's not like he was parading her around like a trophy. He thinks Cho's pretty, she also plays Quidditch, he finds that she is easy to talk to, and he likes her... Why is this shallow? It was a first date (Many first dates are HORRIBLE) and it was going pretty well untill they arrived at "Chez-Hormone" and the subject of Cedric came up. > > Normally when Rowling encounters this normal type of shallow or > mean > > behaviour she roundly criticizes it > *snip* > > Rowling simply doesn't do the same thing with Harry and Cho. And > > though boys may get tongue tied, most I think managed to at least > > have the interest. > > He did have an interest, he just didn't have the experience. To go on your first date on VALENTINE's DAY surrounded by kissing couples could be a little overwhelming for even the most experienced dater. First dates are awkward enough without that kind of pressure. He was in over his head with no one to help him - Hermione's too logical and detatched, Ron is just as inexperienced, and Sirius can't be reached. > *snip* > > Cho is put through quite a ringer both for imposing herself on > Harry, > > making him uncomfortable and being just generally shallow. > > > > The only person's bad behaviour I've seen JKR ignore so far is > > Hermione's and Harry's > *snip* > > Harry knows how to treat a girl - even one he likes. He knows > > how to treat people decently. > > > > The fault here is Rowling's IMHO not Harry's. I'm not sure I am > > meant to feel the way I do about his treatment of Cho. I think I > am > > meant to laugh at the whole thing and in the end learn that shallow > > traits are not good to go by. I am meant to indulge Harry and > excuse > > his behaviour as normal. I however cannot laugh at Cho. There is > > something so pitiful about her. Trapped in this illusion that men > > will be her rock and then she inexplicably lashes out when things > go > > badly. Contrasted with her previous depiction I cannot say I enjoy > > her downfall as I should. Perhaps I am just delusional. But still > > can't laugh at her. Even when all the jokes are there. I don't think agree with your "shallow traits" moral. I also think that you can't really blame either Cho or Harry for why they didn't work out as a couple. I have a hard time putting such serious connotations on adolescent romances. Cho and Harry kind of like each other. Harry makes the first move in book four and Cho makes it in book 5. Cho thinks that she has someone she can talk to about Cedric's death who will understand how hard it is for her. Harry has a hard enough time confiding in his two best friends, he would never be able to really have a talk like that with Cho - she may be easy to talk to but she's too out of the loop to understand his POV (you can see that when she mentions Sirius). I don't think the point is to laugh at Cho, I think that whats funny is the situation & the silly games that come up in these kind of relationships. Harry doesn't get why they just can't tell each other they like each other and get on with normal life. Hermione, i think, breaks this down down pretty well. The fact that Harry doesn't know enough to 'play the game' doesn't make him a bad guy. As for Cho being an emotional wreck, I would be concerned if she wasn't. I wondered why the students all seemed to be taking Cedric's death in stride. She's not looking for a rock-of-a-man, she just thinks Harry is the perfect person to talk to - since he was there with Cedric. So she's a bit of a Drama queen - that is not a serious offense. She's also a pretty girl so maybe what she sees as Harry's nonchalance is a bit of a blow to her ego. Also Cho moves on to the next guy so quickly because relationships at that age can be surprisingly interchangeable (Ginny moved on just as quickly and she seems not to be the clingy&emotional type). I dont think we've seen the last of Cho and Harry though. > > ME : WHERE is Harry supposed to have learnt all these things? I think > we have a plot point that will run for the next two books. > Harry hasn't had good examples of caring, loving, demonstrative > affection shown through his childhood. I don't think getting a hug > off Molly Weasley counts as an emotional schooling. > I believe this is Harry's task through the next two books - he has > the raw material, he has feelings for people, but he's not been given > any examples or instruction in showing the feelings. > He may have the 'weapon' love in vast quantities, but now he has to > learn how to 'use' it (I don't mean that to sound the way it does 8)). > As an 'action hero' as he's been for the first four books, he's not > considered anything much but the next adventure, task, battle. My > guess is, he's going to carry on growing up, and have to learn how to > deal with the big gaping hole in his development. > Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria I wouldn't call Harry's awkwardness with a girls a gaping hole in his development. Ron comes from a loving home with five older brothers and a dad to turn to and he is, according to Hermione, just as clueless. -QoE From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 17:07:07 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:07:07 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > I thought Sirius often behaved irrationally in book 5 (it was > understandable, but still irrational) but I never really thought > of him seeing Harry as James. > > Did any characters make this accusation other than Molly? I don't > recall if this sentiment was also echoed by Hermione. > > I never felt for an instant that Sirius looked at or talked to > Harry and thought he was interacting with James. I do think he > made comparisons in his mind between the two, and I also think he > was well along on the down-side of the scale of depression, but I > don't think he was delusional. No, I don't think he was delusional about this, nor do I think Molly was accusing him of this. I do think that what Molly meant was that Sirius seemed to be WISHING that Harry was James. It wasn't so much that his behavior reflected a genuine confusion so much as evidence of Sirius' desire to have his best friend back. (Despite some minor Sirius/Remus interaction in OotP, we never see so much that it ever seems that Sirius and Remus had a friendship anywhere near as close as Sirius and James.) > The clearest instance of Sirius making comparisons was when Harry > told him he shouldn't come up for the next Hogsmeade weekend. > Harry's reaction was clearly not what James' reaction would have > been and it disappointed Sirius that Harry didn't respond to the > suggestion as James would have. "You're less like your father than > I thought." I didn't read that as Sirius suddenly becoming aware > that he was speaking to Harry and not James, but rather a > realization, that Harry is his own person and that sometimes he'll > act like or think like James, and sometimes he won't. This is a very important motif in the books, I believe. Sirius realizing that Harry is in fact very different from James--despite seeing many similarities other than the physical in PoA--is somewhat jolting to Sirius. He is being disillusioned about Harry as much as Harry is being disillusioned about both Sirius and James when Harry sees their puerile behavior in the Pensieve. (I think his hero- worship of James came to an abrupt halt when he wondered why his mother married him.) Early in OotP, Harry and Sirius are starting to look at each other without the rose-colored glasses and are not strictly liking everything they're seeing. It's a big wake-up call for them both. They want to like everything about each other, but they're learning that even people we love a great deal can have a lot of qualities that we don't LIKE. However, as far as Harry is concerned, it will be good for him to see Sirius as he really was in the long run, as Sirius is the worst possible role-model for him and every time he did anything as Sirius would have, disaster inevitably followed (including Sirius' own death). In the long run, I think he will learn to appreciate many things about his father and Sirius, without necessarily emulating their less admirable traits, but in the short term it is clear that he needs to separate from them and be his own person. He was far nobler, frankly, when he was younger and less influenced by Sirius. I definitely think Dumbledore did the right thing to have Harry grow up with the Dursleys, rather than in the wizarding world, where he knew he was famous; otherwise he might have turned out a complete prat. (Think Draco Malfoy.) Sirius didn't understand completely why Harry spared Peter in PoA, and I get the impression that he didn't understand why James saved Snape's life, either (this is a way in which Harry IS like James, but it seems far removed from the Pensieve scene). Someone who follows in Sirius Black's footsteps will be very unlikely to be able to defeat Voldemort, I believe, but the boy who spared Peter Pettigrew's life is another story entirely. Mercy is something that, like love, Voldemort has no hope of ever understanding. Sadly, it doesn't seem that Sirius understood it either. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 17:15:44 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:15:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew the murderer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807171544.84575.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75875 Something has been bothering me since POA and that is if Peter was supposed was supposed to be such a weak wizard, then how did he blast half the street away and kill all those people? I don't see how this could have happened. I don't have the books with me because I am at work. Also, he just cuts his finger off, blasts the street apart and then tranforms into a rat and runs away. He was so squimish about cutting his hand off that I think Sirius would have realized what he was going to do and have been able to stop him. At first I thought maybe Voldemort could have been possessing him, but he was a little.....under the weather at that moment. Could there have been someone else there? Roxx My reply: I don't think he is a bad wizard or a weak one at all. He can transform into an anigmus. That is not easy..for anyone...you have to have some competence. Honestly, I think he just was not up to par with his friends. It's easy to compare students....even if you try not to. James, and Sirius and most likely Lupin as well were all very gifted. Peter was just average. But that does not mean that he could not have killed all of those people. And as for Sirius...I think he was in shock t the time...I don't think he knew what to do... ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 17:22:59 2003 From: speedygonzo242 at hotmail.com (frankielee242) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:22:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's nationality and worst memory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75876 Was re-reading OoP again (like any normal, HPfGU listee) and a random thought occured halfway through the chapter on Snape's worst memory. For the most part, people in the books seem to wear clothes under their school robes. THERFORE, in order for him to be flipped upside down and wind up with his pants on display, I submit that Snape is the offspring of an obscure scottish clan and was forced to wear a kilt to school. Or maybe his mother was scottish and packed him off to Hogwarts in her family's tartan. Either way. Frankie, sinking back down into deep lurk From sues0101 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 10:52:10 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:52:10 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Second guessing JKR (FF) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75877 >"Geoff Bannister" >I sometimes wonder whether, here on the group, we get a little too >involved in second guessing what Jo Rowling is intending us to read >into her books. This thought came to mind when the writer of a recent >message commented on whether there was any significance that >when "Moody" had been using the Imperius curse in GOF, Hermione was >not in the list of those named. Was there a deep and significant >reason which books 6 & 7 would reveal? On the other hand, did Moody >use all the members of the class? Or did he use Hermione but this >fact wasn't mentioned in the text? > >I have cogitated for some time as to whether JKR spent a great deal >of time putting together the words of the prophecy so that >ambiguities would be perceived by those who like to dissect every >paragraph of the book with a scalpel! By way of example, we have had >deep treatises (and a good deal of fun) in trying to interpret what >was meant by the use of "either" and to whom it referred. I wonder >whether this was the case. Have readers ever written an email or a >letter or said something to find that the reader or hearer has put a >totally different slant on what was meant? Maybe JKR wrote down the >words of the prophecy with her own specific line of thought in mind >without stopping to consider how the readers might choose to see a >different meaning or did she consider every word thinking "Aha! >This'll get `em going. He, he". This is perhaps a trap of critical >analysis that we assume that the writer has paralleled our line of >thought and has indeed inserted material which can be analysed in >umpteen ways; or perhaps we are tripping ourselves up in our own >eagerness to "unfog the future". > >I shall await the arrival of books 6 & 7 with increasing impatience >to see how accurate the outcomes of our musings are. One hope is that >it is not a dream in the manner of Dallas or I shall be joining the >lynch party! My only wish would be that HP does not die. He is a >great survivor already; may it remain so. > >Geoff Bannister > > I agree totally Geoff, not matter how wonderful these groups are at discussing Jo's ideas and books and dissecting every sentence basically, I just can't imagine her going to all that trouble just to give us something to write about. Obviously she has her own plan in mind when writing these books and I do think she maybe keeps track of the fanfictions being written so as not to copy anything or too much or whatever. I read a lot of them and was impressed by a number of them and even more impressed when Jo had totally original ideas in her book, although some of these fanfic authors guessed at things that turned out to be right. One series I read had Mrs Figg as a witch, al lo and behold she turns up in OoTP as a squib, close. Of course the same series had Ron being bitten by remus and becoming a warewolf too LOL. Actually, I think if she read too many fanfics she would get herself as confused as me. I have to reread the canon books occasionally to remind myself of the true story line. But back to your original point, I guess that's why it takes her longer to write each one - apart from the length of the books, she probably does do some thinking about how it will be interpreted. Especially with all the wackos claiming that they promote the occult etc etc and calling for them to be banned. I too will be waiting eagerly for the last two books, hoping that at least some of the things I would like to happen actually do, but being happy with whatever she has lined up for us. As long as harry doesnt die. For me that would be the ultimate slap in the face - like haha I got you to love this guy but guess what good guys finish last and now he's dead! Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. Get larger attachments - send/receive up to 3MB attachments (up to three times more per e-mail). Click here http://join.msn.com/ From sues0101 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 10:58:42 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:58:42 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tonks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75878 Tzvi of Brooklyn wrote: > >Umbridge or MacGonagall says that they haven't taken and new Aurors in a >few years, however we know that Tonks is relatively new to the force. She >seems pretty young, and I think auror training is supposed to last for >about 3 years. That would mean she would be a 6th or 7th year at Hogwarts >when Harry started, if she was just out of Auror school. I suppose she is >in her mid twenties or so to make her old enough that she wouldn't have >been in school with Harry. > >As well, I'm very anti-conspiracy theory in this yahoo group, but she can >change her appearance at will. I hope what we know of her is the origional, >but we can't rule out her disguised as someone completely. > >Personally, I like her, although she doesn't have the biggest role. I >suppose Harry's life was getting too mundane, and JKR had to throw in some >bizarre character. Well, I think Tonks was introduced as a new character because JK had already said that Harry would not become an animagus in the books. We already know he can grow regrow his hair overnight, and so I think its a way of intrducing a new 'talent' to cover the fact that he might not be able to change himself into an animal but he will be able to alter his apprearance at will. Sorry if this idea has already been posted, I've been offline for a couple of months. Sue _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp From rrrachel at leatherdykeuk.fslife.co.uk Thu Aug 7 12:05:35 2003 From: rrrachel at leatherdykeuk.fslife.co.uk (RachelJayne) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 13:05:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Godric's Hollow References: Message-ID: <06ec01c35cdc$4bd4e5b0$5500a8c0@rachels> No: HPFGUIDX 75879 ffimiles said: > Others can get into Grimmauld Place, even though Dumbledore is the > Secret Keeper - they just read the paper written by him - so I suppose > Peter would have told Sirius - but yes, come to think of it, how > would hagrid and Dumbledore know, as having Peter's permission to > enter would mean knowing he was the keeper - unless they only knew > the general area where the house was, and finding one absolutely > flattened, the secret betrayed means that others can know where the > house is then - the charm is broken? Hmm... My answer: It's more likely that Sirius, since he was originally the Secret Keeper, told Dumbledore and Hagrid, as they were trusted members of the Order. Then Peter became Secret Keeper and told Voldemort. Rachel ( leatherdykeuk ) "And give up My hard-earned status As Fabulous Freak of Nature ?" From chitrasahai at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 12:45:21 2003 From: chitrasahai at yahoo.com (hermys_quill) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 12:45:21 -0000 Subject: Harry/Susan Bones ship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75880 As you all got from the header, I am talking about Susan/Harry ship. JKR once mentioned Cedric in book 3 and then he played larger part in book 4. She always promise to drop some clue for future books and she accepted that It is not good to surprise reader a lot. Even In her interview she mentioned "Tonks" character is coming up. This time JKR can go for same thing, by giving us clue like In Hog's head Harry saw a girl having blode hair and plates who Harry does not know. People are predicting Harry/Luna ship. I disagree with it. She seems to like Ron in "that sense" although she could be a understanding friend of Harry. Susan and Harry shares atleast a thing - Loss of their dear relatives. This thing might help to calm down Harry. From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 17:48:58 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:48:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <179131469307.20030807104858@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75882 Hi, Thursday, August 07, 2003, 9:46:43 AM, greatelderone wrote: > The only way that Ronald managed to get out of Harry's shadow was not > by his own achievement and merit, but because Harry got banned from > quidditch and because Dumbledore didn't want to pile more > responsibilities onto Harry. So? The only way Harry became famous was that he survived LV's curse as a baby... (not necessarily an achievement of his own, according to DD). Many of Harry's achievements only became possible through the help of others, Ron including. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 17:51:53 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:51:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Godric's Hollow References: <06ec01c35cdc$4bd4e5b0$5500a8c0@rachels> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75883 Rachel: It's more likely that Sirius, since he was originally the Secret Keeper, told Dumbledore and Hagrid, as they were trusted members of the Order. Then Peter became Secret Keeper and told Voldemort. Dan: Wasn't he just *considered* for Secret Keeper, and Dumbledore, etc. thought that the Potters had, in fact, chosen Sirius? The Fidelius Charm is "extremely complex" (coming from Flitwick, probably the best wizard at Charms alive in the world) and I don't think the Secret Keeper position is transferrable without breaking the Charm and then doing it again, which wouldn't have really made sense. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 7 17:53:38 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 18:53:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pure Blood Parentage References: <1060198133.12822.33018.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001e01c35d0c$d50b8ac0$de516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 75884 Rachel: >Here's a question I've come to again and again, and JK has never >really explained it very well. Perhaps this has already been >discussed, I can't be sure. It's a common subject for discussion, but I'm not sure if this particular angle has ever been mentioned... >How long are you a half-blood? I mean, if James was born from two >wizards, he'd be a pure blood (we've never heard mention anything My answer: who cares? Only I think certain families. The house of Black set great store by their tapestry which traces all of their ancestry (except for the ones who've been disowned and burned off it) as far back as the tapestry goes. But what if you're a family who doesn't have a tapestry? There wasn't any mention of one at the Burrow so maybe it's a matter of complete indifference to the Weasleys that they may or may not have the odd muggle somewhere back in the family tree. And I think as you go down the social scale, the huge majority of the wizarding population, the less "aristocratic" ones, just don't think in those terms. I think that purebloods respect purebloods, and if your family tree is longer than mine, you expect proportionally more respect. Here's another paradox, of course. It's commonly surmised that not all WW children go to Hogwarts, but that certainly the high status pureblood kids do, but also that the muggleborns do as well. So it's precisely those students whose parents have the biggest vested interest in keeping muggle genes out of the bloodline who have the greatest chance of meeting and entering into relationships with muggle born students. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 17:57:37 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 10:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry/Susan Bones ship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807175737.44606.qmail@web20713.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75885 Snipet: As you all got from the header, I am talking about Susan/Harry ship. JKR once mentioned Cedric in book 3 and then he played larger part in book 4. She always promise to drop some clue for future books and she accepted that It is not good to surprise reader a lot. Even In her interview she mentioned "Tonks" character is coming up. This time JKR can go for same thing, by giving us clue like In Hog's head Harry saw a girl having blode hair and plates who Harry does not know. People are predicting Harry/Luna ship. I disagree with it. She seems to like Ron in "that sense" although she could be a understanding friend of Harry. Susan and Harry shares atleast a thing - Loss of their dear relatives. This thing might help to calm down Harry. My reply: I think this ship is interesting. However, Luna is another person who has shared a loss as well. I will say that I think Harry appreciates Madame Bones, it was hr support that helped him get off. She asked the right questions and had the courage to stand up to fudge. The reason I'm going for Luna/Harry is that she challenges him..even more than Hermione. Hermione gives him answers...Luna gives him ideas. I adore Luna, and yes she does have a crush on Ron...but I can't see Ron ever looking at her differently. Harry however, seems to like her a bit. Maybe just as a good friend. But it could go more. Luna also has this innocent faith...I just adore it. And I think this is a very important point...Luna is the one peer that Harry turned to in his time of need. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 18:03:43 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:03:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" > wrote: > > > Mrs. Weasley only thought of Harry & Hermione as a couple > > because of Rita (she's very protective of Harry) > > Why would Mrs. Weasley of all people believe an article by Skeeter, > who had earlier wrote a less than credible article that made her > husband look bad, about two kids that she has had over for the summer > and one of them who is her son's best friend and who she knows fairly > well unless she already found the idea of a relationship between > Harry and Hermione believable? Sure Mrs. Weasley finds the story believable, because the humor of the situation is that gossip seems scathing when it's aimed at you but suddenly seems plausible when it's about someone else. Harry and Hermione aren't a far-fetched idea, especially if you don't know them very well. Mrs. Weasley doesn't know Hermione too well, maybe she assumed she was duped into liking her as Harry supposedly was. She sees Harry as a son but, though she does care, doesn't show that same affinity for Hermione. > > > All this may change now that > > he's on the quidditch team though. I see Ron coming out of his > > friends' shadows in book 6 and becoming a little more > > gossip-worthy. > > The only way that Ronald managed to get out of Harry's shadow was not > by his own achievement and merit, but because Harry got banned from > quidditch and because Dumbledore didn't want to pile more > responsibilities onto Harry. Actually the first statement isn't true. There were a lot of empty slots on the Griffyndor team in book 5, and it's not as if Ron was seeker. Plus Ron did well in his final game all by himself (not in the shadows of either H) .Let's cut Ron some slack. It's hard to get any credit for being smart when one of your best friends is an intellectual-overachiever, or sports credit when your other best friend (and your sibblings) are quidditch favorites. Don't underestimate the power of Ron - sure he hates homework and had a horrible start in Quidditch, but I don't think he is the oaf that some people on this board like to portray him as. I think he is due some more time in the spotlight in book 6. -QoE From acoteucla at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 18:03:37 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:03:37 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75887 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fire_fly107" wrote: > I guess I'm just wondering what the suspicious details at the end of > PoA were. Lupin has been a werewolf his entire life. HOW could he have forgotten to take the potion on this very critical night? The guy has to have the lunar calendar emblazed on his memory. Then he starts TALKING ABOUT THE POTION to Harry & co while they are down in the shack, and he never says "shoot! I forgot to take my potion!" Then Snape SHOWS UP AND REMINDS HIM he hasn't taken the potion, and still it doesn't sink in. Instead, Lupin volunteers to be the one they chain Peter to, which is a VERY stupid idea. Then there is all that nonsense with the dementors: why do they show up EXACTLY after Lupin leaves? And when they DO show up, why do they try to kill Harry? The simplest answer is that Lupin told them to. > It seems pretty obvious to me why Lupin stopped Harry from > following Sirius behind the viel, if you die if you cross it, which > I'm assuming is how it works. What I meant was that IF I'm correct and Lupin IS evil, then why did he prevent Harry from crossing the veil? It's a bit of a problem with the ESE!Lupin theory, and it has a few explanations, but I've never found any of them very convincing. From chitrasahai at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 14:35:28 2003 From: chitrasahai at yahoo.com (hermys_quill) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:35:28 -0000 Subject: Poor Lily? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75888 Little Draco the Death Eater in training knew various secrets which most of his schoolmates including trio did not. - courtsey his precious "Father". After first Slytherin/Gryffindor match in OOTP Draco insulted Harry's mother also. I wonder, did he pointing that she was not from rich family saying something like her place was also stinking like Weaselys(I do not have book right now). I think, Draco's comments always had some hidden meaning. Had they not? From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 18:12:14 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:12:14 -0000 Subject: Firenze (was: Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort) In-Reply-To: <05b701c35c98$0f6b23d0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75889 > Les queried > >Are there female centaurs? Then Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote a great post about how centaurs might herd in the Forbidden Forest. She postulates that female centaurs may be tending the foals in an unobserved place away from the males. My concern about the physical issues of a creature such as a centaur is the double torso problem. I'm willing to assume that there is somewhere a single heart and set of lungs, and a single stomach in one or the other of the torsos. I'm even willing to believe that in such a magical creature, there could possibly be two hearts, two sets of lungs and two stomachs that are somehow arranged in an anatomically efficacious manner. Where I come completely short is imagining a nursing mother centaur. Put the mammaries in a human- centric model and the foals will be too short to reach. No sitting on a rocking chair for this mother, either. Put them in traditional horse position and the foal is probably too tall and mis-aligned, too. One could conclude that there are no females, and that new centaurs are somehow "made", but they do acknowledge "foals", so it would seem that they do have young. Any ideas? Maybe they don't nurse, but are nourished in some other magical manner? Constance Vigilance From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 18:38:03 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:38:03 -0000 Subject: Who did Bertha see kissing Florence? Lucius Malfoy, anyone?? In-Reply-To: <198.1e1b05b9.2c63089e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: >and I think OotP > finally gave us information leading to a possible (I think, probable) > identity of the mystery hexer, assuming it was not one of the Mauraders or Snape. > We learned that Lucius Malfoy is 41 in OotP, That's interesting, but the thing that struck me was that it must have been James (if pressed for asecond choice it would be Sirius-- but James seems the most likely now.) Snape slipped way down the "kissing Florence" list after OoP because of what we found out about James' habit of hexing anyone who annoyed him--read as "everyone he could". Anyone he thought was spying on him would have merited a major hex. DD was annoyed that Bertha had followed him at all--implying that EVERYONE knew that James (IMO) was the sort who'd hex anything or anybody in his way. Melpomene From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 14:52:27 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:52:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's 'wand hand' (was: book 5 flub) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75891 "Garrett" wrote: > I just was looking at the american cover of OoP and reliezed that > harry had his wand in his left hand. And in Ps/Ss he told olviander > he was right handed. > Garrett > P.S. in other post you ca put in more flubs you have found ***** I am surprised to see this too. I wondered about this as well when the artwork for the books was released. See below... --- Correct me if I'm wrong, but Harry is right hand dominant per the book, and the movies, right?. So, why on the Goblet and Phoenix covers is Harry holding the wand with his left hand? Is he all of a sudden ampedextrious (forgive me if i misspelled that)? He did 'clumsily' feed himself porridge with his left hand when his right arm was growing bones back. First, I thought it was possible that the Phoenix cover could have been a mirror image (Harry would be looking over his right shoulder), but after seeing the Goblet cover... I wonder... Is this a mistake? --- I have also taken into consideration that when we read the books, we become Harry, so looking at the covers is like looking in a mirror. Therefore, GOF would have the wand in Harry's right, as would OoP. From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 15:02:41 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:02:41 -0000 Subject: SNAPE confusing Harry and James (was: Sirius...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75892 "Tara" wrote: > Hi everyone, I was just wondering what you thought about Sirius seeming to confuse Harry > for James in book 5. To be honest, if JKR hadn't explicitly had other > characters mention it, I never would have picked up on that, and even though > it was stated in the book, the idea felt a little bit forced to me. I > thought Sirius often behaved irrationally in book 5 (it was understandable, > but still irrational) but I never really thought of him seeing Harry as > James. I think one of the reasons why I found it hard to swallow was > because Sirius has been around for three books now, but in the first two > this issue never came up, and then in this book it sort of felt to me like > an afterthought. When Molly says to Sirius that Harry is not James, I felt that someone should say the exact same thing to Snape. His unfair treatment of Harry irks me to no end. Everything James (& Sirius) did to him, he's taking out on Harry. He knows there's nothing Harry can do about it. Straight up PUNK if you ask me. From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 15:28:56 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:28:56 -0000 Subject: Myrtle an Evans? (was: Is Lily Voldemort daughter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75893 "Marci" > wrote: > > Don't really know if something like this has been mentioned here. If it has, sorry for the repetition... > > > > Ok, maybe she has already served her purpose and there really is > > nothing more to her. But, what if there is more? A last name has > > not been given yet (has it?) so could Moaning Myrtle be an Evans? --- Sueeeyqbong: >It's a great theory, but wouldn't this mean that >Myrtle would have appeared in the mirror of erised as part of the >potter / evans family? I know that the possibility of what Harry saw >in the mirror - being the product of his wishful thinking rather >than actual historical reality - has already been discussed, and >that one could find a rationale for most theories if one looks hard >enough...but still...I'm not convinced on this one. > > Sue --- Marci again: The description given of the family that appeared in the Mirror of Erised was definitely that of a Potter clan. Harry saw glasses, dark messy hair, knobbly knees, etc. My theory is that Myrtle is an Evans, and in his heart of hearts, I doubt Harry would desire to meet any of his aunt's relatives. From n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 15:34:30 2003 From: n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com (n_longbottom01) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:34:30 -0000 Subject: Where are we headed in #6? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75894 The fourth book ended with Dumbledore doling out assignments for various characters, which (happily) gave us an idea of where we might be headed in the fifth. Is there anything this solid in OoP that shows us what might be in store for us in the next book? Right now I don't have a specific passage to point to in OoP that makes me say, "Aha, this means such and such is happening next!" But I do have one hope and one fear about book six. The fear first: I'm afraid Harry is going to feel even more alienated in book six, and he's going to try his best to distance himself from everyone. Maybe it won't happen this way, but I'm afraid we are going to see an even angrier Angry!Harry next time around. Hopefully someone can snap him out of it before book 7 (I'm pulling for Ginny to fill this role). Now the hope: I hope the Mystery/Action/Danger is more Hogwarts centered in book 6. I hope Voldemort needs something from Hogwarts, or something along those lines. It doesn't have to be a repeat of the Sorcerer's Stone-as-quest-object, but I won't mind if it was similar. If the mystery/action/danger is at Hogwarts, maybe it will help take the edge off Harry's feeling that he is being left out of the loop on everything important. From n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 16:01:50 2003 From: n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com (n_longbottom01) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:01:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75895 > Joj: >The only thing I noticed, was when Ron and Harry had their fight in GOF, Hermione stuck with Harry. I'm sure she spent time with Ron, but when the three were in the same place, she was with Harry. I'm sure it was because she believed Harry and thought Ron was wrong, but it still stood out to me. Also, to my knowledge, nobody has ever thought Ron was Hermione's boyfriend. It's happened with Harry a lot. (Rita, Mrs. Weasley, Krum and Cho). She spends just as much time with Ron. (more in OOP) Just something I noticed. Now me: Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but when Harry and Ron are looking for dates for the Yule Ball, one of their female school mates (sorry to be so vague, I don't have my books with me) suggests that maybe Hermione Granger would go with Ron. I read into this that this female school-mate either suspects, or had heard something, that Hermione might be interested in Ron. (Someone with a book in front of them help me out here, or set me straight if I'm remembering wrong) From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Thu Aug 7 18:43:55 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:43:55 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > BIg snip: > I definitely think Dumbledore did the right thing to have Harry grow > up with the Dursleys, rather than in the wizarding world, where he > knew he was famous; otherwise he might have turned out a complete > prat. (Think Draco Malfoy.) Nother big snip here: > --Barb > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent > http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb I interject: There are many other reasons Harry had to grow up apart from the WW than preventing him from being a prat. #1- he had to live with a blood relative to be protected from LV. There was much more Dumbledore wanted to prevent Harry from being exposed to beyond the adoration of wizards and witches everywhere and he put Harry to the Dursleys knowing he was putting him in horrible circumstances for ten dark years. Jennifer From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 16:11:20 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:11:20 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > > The other students: > Anyone in favor of ESE!Hermione or ESE!Luna? CW: I'd put my money on Hermione. She wouldn't do it on purpose, but it would be a repeat of the broomstick episode. She'd think she was doing something for the best, but then screw up big time. I think she shows so much reluctance to go along with his various dangerous sounding schemes, that there's going to be one time too many, and she makes the wrong decision, supposedly for his own good, and provokes disaster. She's not really on his wavelength. Any girl that is supposed to be nuts about him, as all the H/H shippers will have it, would have broken DD's embargo last summer and got to see him, no matter what. Both Harry and Sirius are inherently reckless, which makes them attractive, but not to girls like our Hermy-owny. For example, I thought she was noticably not-sorry about Sirius, and Ron, for once showed more tact in dealing with Harry about it. Every now and then she has fits of righteous anger and does something off her own bat, but basically she is on the side of authority and everyone doing what they are told, like Molly Weasley. In an anarchic world, its not the ideal personality to have. From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 7 16:18:00 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:18:00 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew the murderer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "magicroxx" wrote: > Something has been bothering me since POA and that is if Peter was > supposed was supposed to be such a weak wizard, then how did he blast > half the street away and kill all those people? I don't see how this > could have happened. I don't have the books with me because I am at > work. Also, he just cuts his finger off, blasts the street apart and > then tranforms into a rat and runs away. He was so squimish about > cutting his hand off that I think Sirius would have realized what he > was going to do and have been able to stop him. > > At first I thought maybe Voldemort could have been possessing him, > but he was a little.....under the weather at that moment. Could there > have been someone else there? Absolutly. why not?. It seems to me Little Peter Pettigrew has been underestimated his whole life. A big mistake made by all. Not only was he able to blast away a street killing 12 muggles but he out-smarted and out-witted both James Potter and Sirius Black. Granted, the idea of switching the secret keepers was Sirius' but Peter saw a chance and grabbed it, not the actions of a dim wit. Don't forget it's always the quite ones you have to watch out for. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 7 16:37:04 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:37:04 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75899 > Allie: > The closest Harry has ever come to showing interest in Hermione is > when he says in OoP that he doesn't think she's ugly. :) > > > Joj: > The only thing I noticed, was when Ron and Harry had their fight in GOF, > Hermione stuck with Harry. I'm sure she spent time with Ron, but when the > three were in the same place, she was with Harry. I'm sure it was because > she believed Harry and thought Ron was wrong, but it still stood out to me. > Also, to my knowledge, nobody has ever thought Ron was Hermione's boyfriend. > It's happened with Harry a lot. (Rita, Mrs. Weasley, Krum and Cho). She > spends just as much time with Ron. (more in OOP) Just something I noticed. Me: I agree with Joj, people imagine something exists between Harry and Hermione because it does. The two of them are absolutly in love but neither realises it. You can clearly see this in the stuggle Hermione has in persuading Harry to contact Sirius when Harry believes LV is killing him. Even though she doesn't believe him she still states she will stand by him (and die with him) if he can prove Sirius is not at Grimmauld Place. JKR also makes a point of telling us that Harry notices this act of selfless loyalty. I also think JKR is down playing the Ron/Hermione ship because of two reasions: One: Hermione is not (at the moment) in love with Ron although she did have a crush on him back in Book 3 and 4. Two: I believe JKR is setting the stage for a triangle and betrayal between the three. Which was what I started the thread with in the first place so now I'm starting to beat the idea on the head. Lol. Mandy From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 18:50:24 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:50:24 -0000 Subject: SNAPE confusing Harry and James (was: Sirius...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75900 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > When Molly says to Sirius that Harry is not James, I felt that > someone should say the exact same thing to Snape. His unfair > treatment of Harry irks me to no end. Everything James (& Sirius) > did to him, he's taking out on Harry. Sirius had to be told of the differences, which made him wince. Snape is smart enough to see them for himself, and that confounded him. Actually this dynamic was one of the most interesting parts of the book for me and the ONLY reason I was sad to see Sirius go. Watching the 2 of them (Sirius and Severus) seeing their preconceptions of "Harry as James reincarnate" falling away was fascinating. I'd have loved to see it continue. It will with Snape, I'm sure, but the fun part was that every time Sirius had a "dissapointment" Snape seemed to get an insight. What? He's not reckless and daring? What? He wasn't pampered and coddled? Loved it. Melpomene From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 18:56:26 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:56:26 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75901 bboy_mn wrote a great post with several possibilities how Harry could get into Snape's NEWT potions class, including: > -Dumbledore pulls rank, and forces Snape to take him. > I'm sure Dumbledore has stepped in every year to assure that Snape > gave Harry a reasonable grade which is why he continues to pass, but > there is a big difference between passing each year and achieving > 'Outstanding' in his potions OWL. Conclusion: I don't see Dumbledore > stepping in. > How about Minerva? She said she would do whatever it took to be certain that Harry became an auror. If that means convincing Snape to make a place in NEWT potions, I think she might be able to do it. She and Severus seem to have a reasonably good relationship. I think the books will continue to have the Snape/Harry dynamic. It's just too much fun to abandon. ~Contance Vigilance From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 19:00:23 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:00:23 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's 'wand hand' (was: book 5 flub) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75902 "Garrett" wrote: > I just was looking at the american cover of OoP and reliezed that > harry had his wand in his left hand. And in Ps/Ss he told olviander > he was right handed. > Garrett > P.S. in other post you ca put in more flubs you have found Marci: I am surprised to see this too. I wondered about this as well when the artwork for the books was released. See below... Correct me if I'm wrong, but Harry is right hand dominant per the book, and the movies, right?. So, why on the Goblet and Phoenix covers is Harry holding the wand with his left hand? Is he all of a sudden ampedextrious (forgive me if i misspelled that)? He did 'clumsily' feed himself porridge with his left hand when his right arm was growing bones back. First, I thought it was possible that the Phoenix cover could have been a mirror image (Harry would be looking over his right shoulder), but after seeing the Goblet cover... I wonder... Is this a mistake? Dan: It doesn't really matter, right? Here, get a pen or pencil out. Hold it in either hand like a wand (make a fist, and slide it through) and how does it feel? Give it a little wave. Say a little charm. Works fine, right? Doesn't feel weird? Maybe there is a "wand hand" which is one that gives more effectiveness to your charms, but we've never seen any reference to "wand hands" besides this one. Nothing from Charms Master Flitwick or Transfiguration Expert McGonagall, that is. Thing is, I think Harry is ambidextrous with his wand but not writing-wise. When he uses a pencil (erm... quill), I think he is right-handed. That would go fine with the reference to eating clumsily... -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From music4masses at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 19:07:06 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (music4masses) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:07:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030807143234.00aec598@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75903 At 02:03 PM 8/7/2003, you wrote: >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order? > > >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fire_fly107" > wrote: > > I guess I'm just wondering what the suspicious details at the end >of > > PoA were. > >Lupin has been a werewolf his entire life. HOW could he have >forgotten to take the potion on this very critical night? The guy >has to have the lunar calendar emblazed on his memory. Then he >starts TALKING ABOUT THE POTION to Harry & co while they are down in >the shack, and he never says "shoot! I forgot to take my potion!" >Then Snape SHOWS UP AND REMINDS HIM he hasn't taken the potion, and >still it doesn't sink in. Instead, Lupin volunteers to be the one >they chain Peter to, which is a VERY stupid idea. Actually, there's a number of completely reasonable explanations for all of this. Rowling herself said the moon wasn't out when Lupin entered the tunnel. Then there's the fact that Lupin's dead best friend's son is chasing a convicted killer. I think I'd hustle too, quite frankly. It doesn't sink in because it's not dark out and because there was an emergency. Mistake? Certainly. Evil? No indication of that. He volunteers because he is an adult. Simple. >>Then there is all that nonsense with the dementors: why do they show >>up EXACTLY after Lupin leaves? And when they DO show up, why do they >>try to kill Harry? The simplest answer is that Lupin told them to. I'm confused, where and when in PoA does Lupin tell the dementors to attack Harry?! Weren't they already there chasing down Black? They went after Sirius too. No need for Lupin to beckon them. It was also explained earlier in the text that the dementors were getting hungry. I just don't recall anything in the text suggesting Lupin was ordering the dementors around. Maybe I missed something. It seems a stretch given that the scene was laid out again with the Time Turner. Neither Harry nor Hermione see Lupin talking to dementors before going down in the tunnel, or after. >What I meant was that IF I'm correct and Lupin IS evil, then why did >he prevent Harry from crossing the veil? It's a bit of a problem >with the ESE!Lupin theory, and it has a few explanations, but I've >never found any of them very convincing. To save him for Voldemort? But he didn't know Voldemort was coming, and how would he get Harry to Voldie without the entire Order knowing? The DEs were trapped and Bellatrix ran. He didn't know Harry wouldn't die if he crossed the Veil. What if he was trying to protect Harry because he cares about him? That's the most reasonable explanation with the most support that I've heard. If someone's betraying the Order, it's not Lupin. Rowling is not going to make the victim of discrimination and prejudice evil. Like another poster said, it would almost be justifying the bigotry. It's also contrived. We've already got an "evil" former friend. I'm not sure there is even a spy in the Order. It just seems formulai...wait, Hedwig perhaps? :-) Erin From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Aug 7 19:10:44 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:10:44 -0000 Subject: SNAPE confusing Harry and James (was: Sirius...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > > When Molly says to Sirius that Harry is not James, I felt that > someone should say the exact same thing to Snape. His unfair > treatment of Harry irks me to no end. Everything James (& Sirius) > did to him, he's taking out on Harry. He knows there's nothing Harry > can do about it. Straight up PUNK if you ask me. PUNK? FUBAH in my opinion. He might be my favourite character but he is FUBAH which is an acronym of ...... up beyond all help. June From aishaa30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 17:47:19 2003 From: aishaa30 at yahoo.com (aishaa30) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:47:19 -0000 Subject: Snape's nationality and worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75905 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frankielee242" wrote: > For the most part, people in the books seem to wear clothes under > their school robes. In the Quidditch world cup scene in GoF, there was another character that did not wear anything beneath his robes. Perhaps older wizards and those who don't have any muggle influence do not wear clothes under their robes. IMO, the costumes portrayed in the movie lead to some confusion. The books rarely mention "normal" clothes under the robes. From tiggersong at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 17:52:47 2003 From: tiggersong at yahoo.com (tiggersong) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:52:47 -0000 Subject: Firenze (was: Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort) In-Reply-To: <05b701c35c98$0f6b23d0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75906 "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > Les: > >Are there female centaurs? > > 1) The centaurs are tribal snip > 2) ...*have* no females (such as minotaurs). snip > 3) ...young males form "bachelor" herds. Now me. Uhm. What about (slightly nasty?) Option 4) They mate with true horse!mares, and produce (dominant genes? Magical genes? Who knows?) centaur males only. This makes Hermione's "horse" statement ...telling, don't you think? Stasia From ishatewari at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 18:33:47 2003 From: ishatewari at yahoo.com (Ishani) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:33:47 -0000 Subject: Return of the Longbottoms? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75907 I have a feeling that the Longbottoms may be cured and out of St. Mungos to help fight Voldy. Given that people from the old group are slowly wilting away, Neville's parents may serve as a link for the past for Harry and the new generation of OOF... -Isha- From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 18:37:02 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 18:37:02 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: <179131469307.20030807104858@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > >> > The only way Harry became famous was that he survived LV's > curse as a baby... (not necessarily an achievement of his > own, according to DD). > > Many of Harry's achievements only became possible through > the help of others, Ron including. > > -- > Harry has become famous because he continues to be the one who survived. At least every time he has come up against The Dark Lord, and there are not many who can say that save DD. When he was appointed the team seeker he has never failed to win, except the time with the dementors. Harry was able to defeat the dragon with his own talents, even though he is the youngest to ever compete (talent suggested by others and spells taught by others, but still his own talent). And also because he shows selflessness when others are in danger or need help(sacrificing time to save the remaining people under water, putting Hermione behind him to protect her from Grawp). Yes he does get information and guidance from Hermione and Ron does stand up for him when Hermione thinks their ideas are dangerous, but he pulls the hard stuff off by himself in most cases. Ron on the other hand does nothing spectacular or news worthy, and Hermione was in the paper because it was a new angle on Harry. So give Harry a break, he is the only news worthy of the three. In the HP world, everything does revolve aroud HP. From yellows at aol.com Thu Aug 7 19:21:05 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:21:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order?/My predictions for the remaining Marauders Message-ID: <68367DB4.2B511AC5.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75909 In a message dated 8/6/2003 8:41:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ravenclaw Bookworm writes: > I agree that Lupin as the spy would be a real shocker. He knows that LV's supporters don't like non-humans, and he has had enougth difficulties in his life that, IMO, he appreciates the friends he has. Maybe it's because I like him so much, but I can't see him as the betrayer. I agree that Lupin as the betrayer would be a shock. That's for certain. But I have different plans in mind for Lupin: With two of the four dead now (sorry, give me a moment here, *sniff*), we're left with Lupin to represent the love of the friendship and Pettigrew to represent the cowardice of the friendship. It is my opinion (actually, my brother is stronger with this theory than I am) that all four of the friends will be dead by the end of the series, in order for the past to die and the present to become the future. I see Pettigrew killing Lupin. That could be with that hand most of us have been worried about since Book 4, or it could be some other way. But I see a show-down between the two of them. That leaves only the "bad egg" of the group. Pettigrew then, I predict, will feel an overwhelming remorse for what he's set in motion and for being the only one still alive. That's when the life-debt owed to Harry will come into play, and Peter will find an opportunity to sacrifice himself to save Harry. That will probably come very late in the series, though. So, I don't see Lupin as the one who will betray the Order. Tonks, I agree, is too obvious, although she could be an accomplice, if we're allowed more than one betrayer. :) That morphing ability mixed with her clumsiness is clearly begging to become a problem. Okay, I'll go out on a limb here. Why *not* Harry? Didn't anyone else's jaw drop when he pointed his wand at B.L. and shouted "Crucio"? What if Harry lets the Dark Side in him come out a little too much in the next book? Not a theory I'm seriously into right now. It's just a thought I'm kicking around. :) Brief Chronicles From mbush at lainc.com Thu Aug 7 19:21:46 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:21:46 -0000 Subject: Harry's 'wand hand' (was: book 5 flub) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75910 > > Dan says: > It doesn't really matter, right? Here, get a pen or pencil out. Hold it in either hand like a wand (make a fist, and slide it through) and how does it feel? Give it a little wave. Say a little charm. Works fine, right? Doesn't feel weird? Maybe there is a "wand hand" which is one that gives more effectiveness to your charms, but we've never seen any reference to "wand hands" besides this one. Nothing from Charms Master Flitwick or Transfiguration Expert McGonagall, that is. Thing is, I think Harry is ambidextrous with his wand but not writing-wise. When he uses a pencil (erm... quill), I think he is right-handed. That would go fine with the reference to eating clumsily... And I add (mtwelovett) To add to the "experiment" If Harry is "right handed" which we'll assume that he is, If he is opening doors where the hinge is on his right while facing the door (opening in--away from him) chances are he is using his right hand on the knob or to push it if there isn't one there by crossing his arm in front of him (right hand to in front of his left side) to push the door open. He could use his left hand to open the door but it is more awkward with the hinge in that position. So if this is the case, he may have his wand in his left hand more prepared for a sudden spell than if it were mashed in his fist that was pushing open a door, and at 12 inches, it may get in the way of the door opening process. (Try it with a ruler if you have one handy) The other explanation is artistic license on the Artist's behalf. Mtwelovett From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 19:27:14 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:27:14 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n_longbottom01" wrote: > Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but when Harry and Ron are > looking for dates for the Yule Ball, one of their female school mates > (sorry to be so vague, I don't have my books with me) suggests that > maybe Hermione Granger would go with Ron. I read into this that this > female school-mate either suspects, or had heard something, that > Hermione might be interested in Ron. No they suggested her because everyone thought that she didn't have a date to the Yule Ball and were rather astonished when they were told that she had one. From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Aug 7 19:30:08 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:30:08 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order?/My predictions for the remaining Marauders In-Reply-To: <68367DB4.2B511AC5.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/6/2003 8:41:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ravenclaw Bookworm writes: > > Okay, I'll go out on a limb here. Why *not* Harry? Didn't anyone else's jaw drop when he pointed his wand at B.L. and shouted "Crucio"? What if Harry lets the Dark Side in him come out a little too much in the next book? > > Not a theory I'm seriously into right now. It's just a thought I'm kicking around. :) > > Brief Chronicles Harry is brought before Voldemorte who is flanked by Pettigrew and ! Really!Evil!All the time!Snape, who stands smirking and to the left of Voldy. Choose the dark side or death says Voldy. "Never" says Harry in ringing tones. Snape duels Harry. Voldy gets up to give Harry the coup de grace. Snape watches Harry being tortured by the Cruciatus Curse. Picks up Voldy and hurls him down a huge ventilation shaft... Snape is badly hurt... dies but redeemed in the end... Oh hang, on, wrong story. As you were. June From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 19:37:40 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SNAPE confusing Harry and James (was: Sirius...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807193740.61982.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75913 --- junediamanti wrote: > PUNK? FUBAH in my opinion. He might be my favourite character > but > he is FUBAH which is an acronym of ...... up beyond all help. > > June I always heard and read the acronym as FUBAR ..... up beyond all recognition :o) Sorry for the OT-ness, just wanted to chime in. Lisa G __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 19:40:11 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order?/My predictions for the remaining Marauders In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807194011.99694.qmail@web40202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75914 Brief Chronicles: > Okay, I'll go out on a limb here. Why *not* Harry? Didn't > anyone > else's jaw drop when he pointed his wand at B.L. and > shouted "Crucio"? What if Harry lets the Dark Side in him come > out a > little too much in the next book? How very Star Wars! I see Anakin going saber-happy after his mother dies.... Lisa G __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 14:37:21 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 14:37:21 -0000 Subject: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? In-Reply-To: <20030807030044.46225.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75915 > Buttercup asks: > > I must have misunderstood the interview, I thought she > was referring to their ages in Book 1 as 35 or 36 > years old, which would make them 40 or 41 in Book 5. > Did she specifically say POA? Thanks! > --- RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > > We learned that Lucius Malfoy is 41 in OotP, and JKR > > said in an interview that > > Lupin (or Sirius, whatever, since they were in the > > same year anyway) was 35 or > > 36 in PoA, making them 37 or 38 in OotP... My turn. I was surprised to see this question here along with the question about Hagrid and Dumbledore, so I snagged the following from my own group as a reply. Any thoughts on it are certainly welcome. --- In AdultHPFanatics at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: 1841ish Albus Dumbledore 1919 Minerva McGonagall 1926 Tom "Lord Voldemort" Riddle (16 when opened the Chamber) 1929 Hagrid (3rd year when expelled at 13) 1931 Moaning Myrtle (IF she was a first year when she died) 1945-6 Petunia, Vernon 1948 Lucius, Arthur, Molly 1955-6 Snape, Lily, James, Remus, Peter, Sirius (Possibly Narcissa, Andromeda & Bellatrix) 1963(?) Barty Crouch, Jr. 1968(?) Charlie 1970(?) Bill (Possibly Tonks) 1976 Percy, Oliver 1978 Fred & George, Lee, Angelina, etc. 1980 Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Dudley, etc. 1981 Ginny, Luna, Colin, etc. 1983 Dennis Creevey From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 19:45:55 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:45:55 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <102138487977.20030807124555@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75916 Hi, Thursday, August 07, 2003, 11:37:02 AM, severusbook4 wrote: >> > Harry has become famous because he continues to be the one who > survived. I don't agree. He was quite clearly already famous by the time he joined Hogwarts. > At least every time he has come up against The Dark Lord, > and there are not many who can say that save DD. Yes, Harry is quite brave and has survived so far, but not only through his own actions. Without his friends help, things might have turned out differently. > When he was > appointed the team seeker he has never failed to win, except the > time with the dementors. Right, but he never had to work to become a good flyer/seeker. The second he had a broom, it was all there, which I don't count as an "achievement". He needs to learn the rules of the game and some strategy, but otherwise he's all set. > Harry was able to defeat the dragon with > his own talents (and lots and lots of help to work out how to do this) > , even though he is the youngest to ever compete > (talent suggested by others and spells taught by others, but still > his own talent). And also because he shows selflessness when others > are in danger or need help(sacrificing time to save the remaining > people under water, putting Hermione behind him to protect her from > Grawp). Yes he does get information and guidance from Hermione and > Ron does stand up for him when Hermione thinks their ideas are > dangerous, but he pulls the hard stuff off by himself in most > cases. Ron on the other hand does nothing spectacular or news > worthy, and Hermione was in the paper because it was a new angle on > Harry. So give Harry a break, he is the only news worthy of the > three. In the HP world, everything does revolve aroud HP. Eh? Harry doesn't need a break from me . He's a great guy, but so is Ron in different ways. I think he has done plenty that would be newsworthy, but it all happens in situations that don't get disclosed to the public. So has Hermione. I realize that this is Harry's story, but that doesn't mean nobody else does anything worthy. Give Ron some credit for the things *he's* done, even though they weren't in the paper! -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 19:46:10 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:46:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <12138502523.20030807124610@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75917 Hi, Thursday, August 07, 2003, 11:37:02 AM, severusbook4 wrote: >> > Harry has become famous because he continues to be the one who > survived. I don't agree. He was quite clearly already famous by the time he joined Hogwarts. > At least every time he has come up against The Dark Lord, > and there are not many who can say that save DD. Yes, Harry is quite brave and has survived so far, but not only through his own actions. Without his friends help, things might have turned out differently. > When he was > appointed the team seeker he has never failed to win, except the > time with the dementors. Right, but he never had to work to become a good flyer/seeker. The second he had a broom, it was all there, which I don't count as an "achievement". He needs to learn the rules of the game and some strategy, but otherwise he's all set. > Harry was able to defeat the dragon with > his own talents (and lots and lots of help to work out how to do this) > , even though he is the youngest to ever compete > (talent suggested by others and spells taught by others, but still > his own talent). And also because he shows selflessness when others > are in danger or need help(sacrificing time to save the remaining > people under water, putting Hermione behind him to protect her from > Grawp). Yes he does get information and guidance from Hermione and > Ron does stand up for him when Hermione thinks their ideas are > dangerous, but he pulls the hard stuff off by himself in most > cases. Ron on the other hand does nothing spectacular or news > worthy, and Hermione was in the paper because it was a new angle on > Harry. So give Harry a break, he is the only news worthy of the > three. In the HP world, everything does revolve aroud HP. Eh? Harry doesn't need a break from me . He's a great guy, but so is Ron in different ways. I think he has done plenty that would be newsworthy, but it all happens in situations that don't get disclosed to the public. So has Hermione. I realize that this is Harry's story, but that doesn't mean nobody else does anything worthy. Give Ron some credit for the things *he's* done, even though they weren't in the paper! ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 19:48:56 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:48:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51138668607.20030807124856@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75918 Hi, Thursday, August 07, 2003, 12:27:14 PM, greatelderone wrote: > No they suggested her because everyone thought that she didn't have a > date to the Yule Ball and were rather astonished when they were told > that she had one. It depends on how you look at it. I also read this as Lavender (I think it was her) being quite astonished that Ron and Hermione weren't going to the ball together, not that they thought Hermione wouldn't get a date, otherwise. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 19:50:02 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 12:50:02 -0700 Subject: Betrayer!Molly (was: Who's going to betray the Order?) Message-ID: <410-2200384719502151@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75919 In response to my post positing that Molly Weasley might betray the Order, Dan wrote: "I don't think so. You see, to betray Harry by trading information to Voldemort in return for a little favor would be, well, idiotic, and I don't think Molly is that big of a fool. She's seen friends (and family?) murdered by Voldemort and his Death Eaters. She knows that he is Evil and Not to Be Trusted. That's the thing. Unless there is a magical contract; some sort of binding promise of ancient magic, in the vein of life debts and Lily's protection... something fundamental that cannot be broken, I don't see her letting Harry and the rest be endangered out of despair and fear. I've read her as protective of her children, and Ginny's involvement with Harry in a fight against Death Eaters is no help, but the real question is: is she stupid enough to trust a Most Evil Wizard?" Now me (Wendy): I agree with you that Molly would never willingly betray Harry. (It was in my original post, but you snipped it in your response, so I'm not sure you noticed it). And yes, Molly knows Voldemort is evil, and it is fairly easy for us to sit here and say, "Everyone knows you don't trust a Most Evil Wizard." But when I put myself in her shoes for a moment, it stops being a question of "is Molly really that stupid?" and becomes "is she terrified and desperate enough?" She's in a horrible situation - there's a war, and the horrors of the previous war are still fresh in everyones' minds. Molly's entire family is one the "front line," so to speak, and she is terrified - perhaps to the point of obsession - that one or all of the people she loves so dearly are going to die. People have been known to do strange things in defense of their loved ones, and we've seen that Molly can be both unreasonable and fierce. I don't think she's stupid, but I do think she might be able to "convince" herself that she's doing the right thing, that she's saving her family and not actually betraying Harry. It wouldn't perhaps be a *rational* choice, but I think she's in a situation which might easily make one behave in an irrational manner. I don't know if you have any children, but in my experience, being a parent has really changed the way I look at things. Here's a story which might help to explain my reasoning here - my son is nearly five, and about two and a half years ago, one of his friends (a child I loved) was hit by a car and killed in a freak accident (she was sitting in her stroller at an ATM when a car jumped a barrier and hit her). Now, of course we all know that cars are dangerous, and parents in general are careful about cars and children. No one lets his or her child go running blindly into the street. And before this friend of Connor's died, I would have counted myself among this group of "parents in general." But now, I have serious issues with cars. It's not just that running into the street can be dangerous. Now, as far as I'm concerned, Cars. Are. Dangerous. It has become commonplace for me to feel terrified when my child is near a car which has its motor running. Period. There are times when I have physical feelings of panic, for example, when coming and going from stores where I've parked the car and then have to take my child across a parking lot. Even hearing a car driving down a nearby aisle can cause my stomach to lurch. Anytime Connor leaves the house, I won't let him get too far ahead of me, in case he were to run into the street when a car was driving by. And I've been known to shriek at him (to the point that people for a block in either direction turned their heads to see what was happening) for letting go of my hand in a cross walk. When these things happen, I actually now think of them as my "Molly moments." Do cars pose a danger to my son? Yes. Absolutely. Are my reactions to this danger irrational? Very likely, because of an event which horrified me and changed my outlook on this issue in a fundamental way. As a result, have I taken every step I know to take to ensure my child's safety? You bet I have. Unlike Molly, I don't actually have to betray or endanger anyone else in my quest to keep Connor safe from being hit by a car. Heck, even that's not entirely true. If we're walking along the sidewalk and another mother and child are approaching us, I'll move to the side away from the street when we pass - forcing that other mother and her child nearer the street, and therefore nearer the potential danger posed by any passing cars. Does this make me a bad person? Or do I just have a more intense fear than the other mother? It's probably not a perfect analogy, but I think it helps to illustrate what I think might be going on in Molly's head. So, bringing this back on topic: does Voldemort pose a danger to Molly's family? Yes, a very real and imminent danger. Because of this, could she behave in an irrational way? I believe it's possible that she could. Will she take every step she knows to take to ensure her family's safety? Absolutely. As a parent myself, I have no doubt of this whatsoever. Whether or not she decides that betraying the order would actually acheive her goal of protecting her family is the important thing here. Most of us on the list probably think that trying to make a deal with Voldemort would most likely *not* do her any good, because he seems rather untrustworthy. It's also not the honourable thing to do, but I think that point might fall by the wayside in the face of Molly's fears. In any case, it seems *to us* like a stupid choice for her to make. However, we're not in her shoes, and it isn't our loved ones who are at risk here. Will it seem stupid to her, or will she ultimately decide that it's worth the risk? Or will one of her children (or Arthur) be killed, after which she is so desperate she feels she has no choice *but* to go and try to bargain with Voldemort for the lives of her remaining family members? It's not for us to decide; Molly's going to have to make these decisions for herself. As I said in my earlier post, I find it very unlikely that the possibility wouldn't cross her mind at sometime. Whether or not she acts on it, we'll just have to wait and see. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me, but the more I think about it, the more I believe that this scenario is definitely a possibility. And not all that far-fetched a possibility, at that. :-) Wendy From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 15:52:35 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:52:35 -0000 Subject: Sirius' cash flow (was: Lupin's home) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75920 bibphile: > > "Lupin, who was staying in the house with Sirius but who left it > for > > long periods of time. . ." (US 118) > > > > I took that to mean Lupin lived there. > > > > ------ Lziner: > Maybe he was just staying with Sirius because he knew how difficult > it was for Sirius to be there. Where was he going for long periods of > time? Guard duty didn't seem to be that long and he didn't have a > job. Or maybe he did - I recall something about umbridge limiting > the amount of hours werewolves could work? I'll have to check my > book. Still hoping for a mrs. > -------- My turn (Marci): I was under the impression that Remus was living with Sirius. Apparently his long periods of absence were spent doing something for the order. Hopefully, he was not 'wolfing out' and had plenty of Wolfsbane potion. Is there a reason why he and Sirius are constantly wearing dismal, raggy robes??? I thought Sirius had one of those high-security Gringotts vaults (#711, which is not far from #713 where the Sorcerer's Stone was kept) with a fair amount of gold. He bought Harry a Firebolt. I'm sure Molly would not have minded going to Diagon Alley and getting them hooked up with some decent rags. From acoteucla at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 19:55:40 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:55:40 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030807143234.00aec598@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, music4masses wrote: > Actually, there's a number of completely reasonable explanations for all of > this. Rowling herself said the moon wasn't out when Lupin entered the > tunnel. Then there's the fact that Lupin's dead best friend's son is > chasing a convicted killer. I think I'd hustle too, quite frankly. It > doesn't sink in because it's not dark out and because there was an > emergency. Mistake? Certainly. Evil? No indication of that. He volunteers > because he is an adult. Simple. Right, there are definitely explanations for Lupin's behavior which don't require him to be evil. This may surprise you, but I personally would not bet money that Lupin is evil. However, the circumstances are undoubtedly suspicious, and Lupin seems the most likely of all the choices to be the betrayer, IMHO. Suppose that Lupin does kind of lose his wits when he sees his dead friend and his best friend's son chasing a convicted killer. Why then is he so calm and collected when he shows up in the Shrieking Shack? If, by then, he has re-collected his wits, then why doesn't he recall his mistake when talking about the potion, and when Snape reminds him? I'm not really sure what your point is about the moon not being out when he originally heads for the shack... why would this make his "mistake" any less bone-headed? > I'm confused, where and when in PoA does Lupin tell the dementors to attack > Harry?! Weren't they already there chasing down Black? They went after > Sirius too. No need for Lupin to beckon them. It was also explained earlier > in the text that the dementors were getting hungry. Again, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for what happened which doesn't involve making Lupin evil. But also again, the circumstances are suspicious. Why do the dementors show up RIGHT after Lupin leaves? Why do they attack Harry (Fudge is mystified as to why they do this)? We don't know how people communicate with Dementors, but for the sake of simplicity, let's say it's like telepathy. Lupin runs off, and once he's safely away, he tells the dementors where Sirius is, and to kill everyone with him as well. Another suspicious detail about the dementors: the other time they got "hungry" and converged on Harry's location was during the Hufflepuff quidditch match. Lupin was a werewolf at this time too. Perhaps he was testing to see if the dementors would obey his instructions if he was in werewolf form? > Neither Harry nor Hermione see Lupin > talking to dementors before going down in the tunnel, or after. Right, because Harry realizes at the last second that they are in the exact location that Lupin is heading towards. They run away, and never see what Lupin is doing at this point. > Rowling is not > going to make the victim of discrimination and prejudice evil. Like another > poster said, it would almost be justifying the bigotry. Snape was the victim of much bullying while a kid at Hogwarts. Now as a teacher, he bullies the kids around. The centaurs are the victims of discrimination and prejudice. To counter this, they seperate themselves from humans and see themselves as superior to humans. In both cases the victim of discrimination becomes a practitioner of discrimination. Rowling does not seem afraid to do this. However, I do agree with your point - Lupin is the most likable victim of prejudice in the HP books. It would be a real shame if it turned out he was evil. And James has already shown a poor choice in friends with Peter Pettigrew. It would be a real shame to make two of his three friends ESE. But, to be honest, do you trust James' judgement? There's Peter Pettigrew (oops!) There's Sirius Black, who almost killed Snape with a "prank" and remains unrepentant. Perhaps Lupin was a less than stellar choice of friend as well? Don't forget that the reason James switched his secret-keeper from Sirius to Peter was because he and Sirius suspected Lupin! If Lupin is exactly as he seems, then I would think he would be the LEAST likely choice to be the spy. So they must have had some real good reasons for suspecting him! From diana at slashcity.com Thu Aug 7 20:08:27 2003 From: diana at slashcity.com (Diana Williams) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:08:27 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Who did Bertha see kissing Florence? Lucius Malfoy References: <20030807134823.50100.qmail@web12503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02bc01c35d1f$aad040d0$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> No: HPFGUIDX 75922 From: "Zeynep Oner" > I had discusswed this with my friends and the > consensus is that the guy is Snape. He would put a > curse on an Bertha, and the most fun fact is that > once, I think, it was rumoured that in the 6. book we > would meet a former love of Snape. I was so excited to > learn that a female DADA teacher came, and was rather > disappointed not to see any action for the old boy. The only problem with Snape being the person with Florence is that Bertha was several years older than Snape & the Marauders. She looked "around sixteen" to Harry in the Pensieve scene, which would make Snape 13-14 years old at the time of the kiss with Florence. Somehow, Snape just doesn't come across as the "precocious with girls" type - Sirius or James, possibly, although I think it's more likely that it was an older boy that Bertha saw with Florence. Several of us have discussed this elsewhere, and it seems possible that it was Lucius Malfoy that Bertha saw kissing Florence. He could have been a 7th Year at the time of the kissing incident, and would have been capable of hexing anyone. Diana W. From cardenasmel at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 19:30:52 2003 From: cardenasmel at yahoo.com (Melissa Cardenas) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 19:30:52 -0000 Subject: Return of the Longbottoms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ishani" wrote: > I have a feeling that the Longbottoms may be cured and out of St. > Mungos to help fight Voldy. Given that people from the old group are > slowly wilting away, Neville's parents may serve as a link for the > past for Harry and the new generation of OOF... > > -Isha- I agree! I could see Neville's Mumbly - Bumbly Plant, the gift he got from Gram? in Book 5 (I can remember the name of it) as some kind of special part of a memory-restoration potion for his folks. Plus, I still think there's a clue to all those bubble gum wrappers- like there's a secret message from his mom in them that he hasn't figured out yet. But that's just me! :) **MC** From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 20:15:52 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:15:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > Actually the first statement isn't true. There were a lot of empty > slots on the Griffyndor team in book 5, and it's not as if Ron was > seeker. Why isn't it true? Once all the noteworthy and great players get banned they'll of course cheer for the mediocre ones or do you seriously think that the gryffindors would be cheering and singing Weasley is our King if Harry was still the star seeker? If Harry hadn't been banned no one would have noticed him. > Let's cut Ron some slack. Why should we? The fact that he constantly complains about his problems when there are students like Neville who are scorned and mocked constantly by everyone and yet go on living and complain little about their problems. > I don't think he is the oaf > that some people on this board like to portray him as. I think he > is due some more time in the spotlight in book 6. > Nor do I, but I think Book 6 is going to focus more on Neville and his rise to prominence. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 20:22:04 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:22:04 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?FILK:__Isn=92t_it_Ironic?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75925 FILK: Isn't it Ironic Based on "Ironic" by Alanis Morissette Hear the original here: http://www.lyricsmp3.net/artbrow/a1972.htm Our young hero caught the snitch He won the match but was banned for life that day It's truth serum put on your tea tray It's winning the prize when you're already rich Isn't it ironic...don't you think It's like rain on your Hogsmeade date It's a trip jinx when you've escaped the raid It's Hermy's advice that you just didn't take Who would've thought...it figures Mrs. Weasley feared her kids would die She called it a night and hugged her kids good-bye She went upstairs to rid the desk of its plight And as the boggart changed she thought "Well isn't this nice..." And isn't it ironic...don't you think It's like rain on your Hogsmeade date It's a trip jinx when you've escaped the raid It's Hermy's advice that you just didn't take Who would've thought...it figures Well Luna has a funny way of sneaking up on you When you think everything's okay and everything's going right And Luna has a funny way of helping you out when You think everything's gone wrong and everything blows up In your face Out of the fire when you're already late A detention because you rose to her bait It's like waiting for Fry when all you have is Jim Dale It's finding the man of my dreams And then watching him fall through the veil And isn't it ironic...don't you think A little too ironic...and yeah I really do think It's like rain on your Hogsmeade date It's a trip jinx when you've escaped the raid It's Hermy's advice that you just didn't take Who would've thought...it figures Luna has a funny way of sneaking up on you Luna has a funny, funny way of helping you out Helping you out ~Phyllis who really does love Jim Dale (but it rhymed so well!) From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 20:37:59 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:37:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's nationality and worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aishaa30" > IMO, the costumes portrayed in the movie lead to some confusion. The > books rarely mention "normal" clothes under the robes. In PS/SS, doesn't Harry notice that Ron's used robes were a little short, and you could see his trainers (shoes) and part of his jeans? It would be odd if the books kept mentioning what the kids wore under their robes. The only time Rowling seems to mention clothes is when it shows something about the character and how he/she is perceived, like Dudley's old clothes make Harry look scruffy and neglected, or Ron's dress robes further illustrate how poor the Weasley's are. -kg From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 20:38:20 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:38:20 -0000 Subject: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > > Buttercup asks: > > > > I must have misunderstood the interview, I thought she > > was referring to their ages in Book 1 as 35 or 36 > > years old, which would make them 40 or 41 in Book 5. > > Did she specifically say POA? Thanks! Well, GoF had just come out when Snape was said to be 35 or 36. If he was 35 at the end of Harry's fourth year, he would be twenty years older than Harry or born in 1960. He was in the same year as MWPP, so they would also be born in 1960. Lily could be in a different year, but I personally believe she was in the same year. It was also about that time that she identified Dumbledore as being around 150 and Minerva as around 70, so I'd alter a number of the years below just a bit. > In AdultHPFanatics at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" > wrote: > 1841ish Albus Dumbledore I'd recommend 1844 or 1845. Small adjustment. > 1919 Minerva McGonagall I'd say 1925, to have her born 70 years before 1995. > 1926 Tom "Lord Voldemort" Riddle (16 when opened the Chamber)* > 1929 Hagrid (3rd year when expelled at 13)* > 1931 Moaning Myrtle (IF she was a first year when she died) There's no real basis for making Myrtle a first year when she died. Her concerns about her appearance seem to imply a slightly older student, frankly. I'd have guessed at least third or fourth year at the time of her death. > 1945-6 Petunia, Vernon This would make Petunia about fifteen years older than Lily, and she was having a child the same year as her sister! I think one reason Petunia married Vernon was because he was available and she would consider someone who was single far into her twenties to be an old maid (something Petunia would never want to be). I doubt that she was more than six years older than Lily. If she was so much older, the way her parents treated Lily after they found out she was a witch would hardly affect her, after all. She'd be living on her own already, most likely, if the age difference was that great. I do think Vernon is older than Petunia, but probably by no more than five or six years. > 1948 Lucius, Arthur, Molly I think Arthur and Molly need to be a bit older than this, actually, as they probably started having kids in 1964 or 1965. I'd put Molly in 1943 and Arthur just before that. We know from OotP that Lucius (*) was born in 1954 because he was 41 in 1995. > 1955-6 Snape, Lily, James, Remus, Peter, Sirius (Possibly > Narcissa, Andromeda & Bellatrix) As noted above, Snape, Lily, James, Remus, Peter and Sirius seem far more likely to be born in 1960. We have no way of knowing when Narcissa and her sisters were born. > 1963(?) Barty Crouch, Jr. He was supposed to be around nineteen in 1981, when the Longbottoms were tortured, so he'd be born in 1962 or so, although it's really just Harry's estimate we're going on, so 1963 could be okay. > 1968(?) Charlie More likely 1966 or 1967 if he finished school in 1985. > 1970(?) Bill (Possibly Tonks) This is off. Bill is older than Charlie. More likely 1964 or 1965. If Tonks is new at being an Auror in OotP, perhaps with only a year or two of experience, and she took three years to train as an Auror (and started training right after Hogwarts) that would make her about 23 at the beginning of OotP, or most likely born in 1972. > 1976 Percy *, Oliver * > 1978 Fred * & George* , Lee *, Angelina, etc. > 1980 Harry *, Ron *, Hermione *, Neville *, Draco, Dudley *, etc. > 1981 Ginny, Luna, Colin, etc. > 1983 Dennis Creevey The rest of these seem to be okay except for Angelina, who we known turned 17 in October of 1994, thus qualifying for the Tournament, so she was born in 1977, and so was Cedric, since he also had his 17th birthday before Halloween in 1994. We also don't know whether Draco was born in 1980 or the late autumn/early winter of 1979. For that matter, we don't know whether the people mentioned in Ginny's and Dennis Creevey's years were born in 1981 and 1983 or late 1980 and late 1982 (although Ginny is most likely born in 1981, as Ron has a birthday of March 1, according to JKR). When it all comes down to it, though, the only concrete ages we ever get in the actual books are for the people I've marked with a *, above. The rest take into account a certain amount of guesswork and confusing input from JKR herself. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From yellows at aol.com Thu Aug 7 20:42:05 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 16:42:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The death and ghosts (Was Died Because of Hate, Love, Old Age, Low Self-Esteem Message-ID: <74E9BC5A.52F3EB73.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75928 In a message dated 8/6/2003 8:14:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Alex Fox writes: > Sirius died because he was bored, feeling useless, and he > was too head-strong. No other reasons. MHO. Okay, here's something that's been bothering me. According to Nick, people only come back as ghosts if they actually *choose* to, right? Now, here's how I see Sirius: 1 -- He's emotional. He's not a think-ahead kind of guy. When everyone else is telling Harry to consider the consequences before acting, Sirius is cheering Harry on. 2 -- He likes to be in the thick of things. He doesn't do well cooped up. He needs fresh air and action. 3 -- He feels a deep need to protect Harry and be close to him, whether it's because he misses James or because he feels guilty about James' death, or whatever. 4 -- He's the love of my life. ;) Okay, all of the above (but one) considered, does this really add up to someone who would die mid-battle and say, "Oh, I choose to leave the world behind and move on to the unknown"? Point 1 = Not thinking ahead. As far as I can tell, thinking ahead is pretty necessary for a decision to move on to be made. Point 2 = Liking to be in the action. Moving on certainly doesn't promise him he'll get action. Especially when he died in the middle of an important fight, the action appears to be here on Earth. Point 3 = A need to protect Harry. This (as far as we know and as far as Sirius knew) can't be done from whatever's beyond death. Point 4 = Er -- nevermind. :) What I'm getting at is, would the Sirius we know choose to move on instead of becoming a ghost? I don't think Sirius will come back, that's not my point at all. But I *do* think there's something fishy about the veil. Perhaps it prevented him from making that choice. What do you think? Brief Chronicles From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Thu Aug 7 06:59:38 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 02:59:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Firenze (was: Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort) References: Message-ID: <3F31F8DA.5070601@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75929 looscann wrote: > > Are there female centaurs? Presumably. According to Pierre Grimal's _Dictionary of Classical Mythology_, there were legends of female centaurs. However, the race of centaurs were supposed to be the offspring of Ixion and a storm cloud dressed up to look like Hera, and some individual centaurs, such as Chiron, had titans and nymphs as parents. From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 20:17:26 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:17:26 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" wrote: {{{snip}}} Sue said: > Well, I think Tonks was introduced as a new character because JK had already > said that Harry would not become an animagus in the books. > Sue Now me: *Where/when* did JKR say that Harry would not become an animagus in the books? That's news to me, although it wasn't something I considered a necessary plot twist. I just figured that, at some point Harry might want to also become an animagus since his father was. And, if that's an inherited skill (who knows?), then it might be easier for him to learn. Sort of in that vein, but not necessarily, I read a post sometime in the last couple of weeks that James' Patronus (as well as his animagus form) was a stag. But I don't recall ever reading anywhere in the 5 books whether James had ever produced a patronus, much less what it was. Anyone have canon to confirm/deny this? Thanks. Shirley, who will go back and try to finish reading all the items posted since she left the office last night, something she's been trying to do off-and-on since she came in this morning.... From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 20:56:21 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:56:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: <51138668607.20030807124856@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > I also read this as Lavender (I think it was her) being > quite astonished that Ron and Hermione weren't going to the > ball together, not that they thought Hermione wouldn't get a > date, otherwise. "Can't you think of anyone who'd go with Ron?" he said, lowering his voice so that Ron wouldn't hear. "What about Hermione Granger?" said Parvati. "She's going with someone else." Parvati looked astonished. "Ooooh - who?" she said keenly. Seems more like they are astonished that Hermione actually had a date to the ball since their whole intention was just to find someone that will go out with Ron and of course they think about Hermione since she hangs out with the trio and because she is generally viewed as unattractive so naturally they assume no one would ask her out. From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 20:59:55 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:59:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" > wrote: > > Actually the first statement isn't true. There were a lot of empty > > slots on the Griffyndor team in book 5, and it's not as if Ron was > > seeker. > > Why isn't it true? Once all the noteworthy and great players get > banned they'll of course cheer for the mediocre ones or do you > seriously think that the gryffindors would be cheering and singing > Weasley is our King if Harry was still the star seeker? If Harry > hadn't been banned no one would have noticed him. Of course they would have. The point wasn't that he was the greatest player, the point was he went from being one of the worst to being a major part of why Gryffindor won the game (didn't Ginny catch the snitch? no big deal there). They would have acted the same way if Harry was there (as long as there was no near death injury before harry caught the snitch like there normally is) - They took the Slytherins jeers and turned it into fanfare. They were proud of Ron's turn around. They know Harry is good, Ron caught 'em by surprise so they celebrated. > > > Let's cut Ron some slack. > > Why should we? The fact that he constantly complains about his > problems when there are students like Neville who are scorned and > mocked constantly by everyone and yet go on living and complain > little about their problems. Neville could open his mouth a little more if you ask me (I think he will start to actually). > > I don't think he is the oaf > > that some people on this board like to portray him as. I think he > > is due some more time in the spotlight in book 6. > > > > Nor do I, but I think Book 6 is going to focus more on Neville and > his rise to prominence. I do agree that they'll be more of a focus on Neville, that he will become even more confident and heroic in the future books - but I don't think he's a spotlight kinda guy. Ron, on the other hand, has the potential to become greater than he even expected (Head boy, Quidditch Champion, heaven forbid he becomes goodlooking - Ron ruffling his hair as the girls go wild). I admit i went a little too far with that last bit ; ) -QoE From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Thu Aug 7 21:00:10 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:00:10 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F32BDDA.9050702@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 75933 greatelderone wrote (2003-08-07 22:15): >>Let's cut Ron some slack. >> >> > >Why should we? The fact that he constantly complains about his >problems when there are students like Neville who are scorned and >mocked constantly by everyone and yet go on living and complain >little about their problems. > > Now, what is wrong with complaining? Ron seems to be type of person who is constantly complaining. Those complains, however, are nothing more than irrelevant babbling. He complained about Scabbers constanly, but was very upset when he was allegedly eaten by Crookshanks. Quote from PoA: "And despite Ron's frequent complaints that Scabbers was both boring and useless, he was sure Ron would be very miserable if Scabbers died." True, Ron is often complaining, but those complains are not influencing what actually he is doing. (Remeber Gruffi - the Gummi Bear ;-). On a related note: I think he was complaining much less[1] in OOtP (or at least he didn't say: "Why is everything I own is rubbish..."). [1] He often complained about his keeper abilities -- but I think this is a valid reason to complain. Regards, -- Pshemekan From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 21:09:50 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:09:50 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Evil Molly! Message-ID: <410-2200384721950877@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75934 I wrote: "The one argument against Betrayer!Molly (other than simply believing in Molly's innate goodness) is that I don't see her being willing to betray Harry. I don't think she would ever give him to Voldemort - she considers him to be one of "her own." However, if she thought there was any way she could betray the Order while saving her family and Harry, I *know* she would consider it. Who wouldn't *consider* it? Whether or not she'll actually *do* it? Well, we'll just have to wait and see, won't we?" To which Melanie replied: "I was working on this very theory a second ago! I love Molly to death mind you. But people act odd when they are promised to protect the people the care about. Molly may be very trusting...what if somebody promised to not hurt Harry..if they give information up? Or what if she betrayed somebody like hermione instead? They could use hermione to acquire information. " Now me again (Wendy): Ooh - Molly betrays Hermione? This is really, really ugly. But there's a precedent for it, isn't there? Molly sure was quick to turn on Hermione in GoF, based on what was written in the newspaper. You could be on to something here, Melanie. As I said, I don't see Molly intentionally betraying Harry. But I don't think she considers Hermione one of "her own." There's also the possibility of shipping coming into play again - maybe Molly is aware that Ron has feelings for Hermione, and this affects her decision (if, for example, Hermione rejects Ron and hurts him that way, or perhaps Molly doesn't think she's good enough for her little boy). This is starting to make Molly sound much worse (more petty and spiteful) than I'd imagined. But, as I said, there is a precedent for it. Molly has been petty and spiteful before, and with really very little provocation, IMO. Come to think of it, in another post Dan questioned my theory on the basis that Molly isn't stupid enough to trust Voldemort. Well, she was stupid enough to believe what was written in Witch World Weekly (or was it the Daily Prophet, don't remember off-hand), and behave spitefully towards Hermione because of it. So yes, we definitely have a precedent for Molly making what appears to be less-than-stellar decisions based upon flimsy evidence. So, if Molly gets desperate enough, I say there's no telling what she could do to protect her family. :-) Wendy From music4masses at earthlink.net Thu Aug 7 21:21:21 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (music4masses) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:21:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: References: <5.2.0.9.2.20030807143234.00aec598@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5.2.0.9.2.20030807161939.00ad4f70@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75935 Well, this looks like a good ol' classic case of having to happily agree to disagree. This board wouldn't be any fun if that were never the case. I simply don't find Lupin's behavior suspicious, which isn't to say he doesn't make irresponsible decisions. I've never been too good at conspiracy theories, so maybe it's just me... >Right, there are definitely explanations for Lupin's behavior which >don't require him to be evil. This may surprise you, but I >personally would not bet money that Lupin is evil. However, the >circumstances are undoubtedly suspicious, and Lupin seems the most >likely of all the choices to be the betrayer, IMHO. Suppose that >Lupin does kind of lose his wits when he sees his dead friend and his >best friend's son chasing a convicted killer. Why then is he so calm >and collected when he shows up in the Shrieking Shack? If, by then, >he has re-collected his wits, then why doesn't he recall his mistake >when talking about the potion, and when Snape reminds him? I don't think Lupin lost his wits, did he? Seems like he was just in a rush to head of a nasty situation. He was still suspecting Sirius at that point. Then he realizes what happened. He's pretty calm and thoughtful throughout the book. Really, I think it boils down to plot. He had to forget his potion and transform for Pettigrew to get away. He probably figured he could go back and take it, since the moon wasn't out when he left. >I'm not really sure what your point is about the moon not being out >when he originally heads for the shack... why would this make >his "mistake" any less bone-headed? It was still bone-headed, I agree. But it would've been easier to forgot in daylight than it would have if the moon was out, as that would be an obvious reminder. In his rush to follow Harry, he took monstrous (no pun intended) risk. He acknowledged it as being a potentially catastrophic error in judgment at the end of POA. However, I just can't see more in it than that. If he had taken the potion, Pettigrew would've been caught, Sirius saved, and what then. >Again, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for what happened >which doesn't involve making Lupin evil. But also again, the >circumstances are suspicious. Why do the dementors show up RIGHT >after Lupin leaves? Why do they attack Harry (Fudge is mystified as >to why they do this)? We don't know how people communicate with >Dementors, but for the sake of simplicity, let's say it's like >telepathy. Lupin runs off, and once he's safely away, he tells the >dementors where Sirius is, and to kill everyone with him as well. Because that's how the story had to resolve itself. Harry had to fight the dementors to see his Patronus as a stag, etc. Since they had been hunting Sirius, I would think they'd know who he was in the open like that. Lupin wouldn't need to inform them. They may've been drawn by the ruckus. And Hermione was there with Harry right? It wasn't just Harry in danger. Fudge is a bit slow on the uptake generally. Harry was trying to protect Sirius, which Fudge couldn't know. Of course Harry got the attention of the dementors. They don't seem to care who else they get in the bargain. I wonder how a werewolf and a dementor would communicate. Lupin isn't Lupin as a werewolf. Why would a werewolf care about any of this? Can dementors be killed? I'll bet a werewolf would give it a good go. >Another suspicious detail about the dementors: the other time they >got "hungry" and converged on Harry's location was during the >Hufflepuff quidditch match. Lupin was a werewolf at this time too. >Perhaps he was testing to see if the dementors would obey his >instructions if he was in werewolf form? > > > Neither Harry nor Hermione see Lupin > > talking to dementors before going down in the tunnel, or after. > >Right, because Harry realizes at the last second that they are in the >exact location that Lupin is heading towards. They run away, and >never see what Lupin is doing at this point. They were in the vicinity the first time, though. The dementors came from the lake side, not the Forbidden Forest, after Lupin fled. That's where they came at Sirius. They didn't see dementors in the forest later when they were hiding either that I remember. Lupin took off into the woods. In animal form, he'd be hungry first and foremost. Good thing Grawp wasn't in there yet or no more Remus. > > Rowling is not > > going to make the victim of discrimination and prejudice evil. Like >another > > poster said, it would almost be justifying the bigotry. > >Snape was the victim of much bullying while a kid at Hogwarts. Now >as a teacher, he bullies the kids around. > >The centaurs are the victims of discrimination and prejudice. To >counter this, they seperate themselves from humans and see themselves >as superior to humans. > >In both cases the victim of discrimination becomes a practitioner of >discrimination. Rowling does not seem afraid to do this. Too true, but all these folks demonstrated signs of prejudice themselves, especially the centaurs. Lupin doesn't do this. Respectfulness is part of his character. He even respects Snape, who isn't really evil--just mean. The centaurs may need attitude adjustments, but they're not really evil either. >Don't forget that the reason James switched his secret-keeper from >Sirius to Peter was because he and Sirius suspected Lupin! If Lupin >is exactly as he seems, then I would think he would be the LEAST >likely choice to be the spy. So they must have had some real good >reasons for suspecting him! The fact that all the characters, good and bad, are flawed to some degree is a great strength of Rowling's characterizations. Sirius regrets and apologizes for suspecting Lupin. Lupin firmly believed Sirius was a murder and Pettigrew a victim for years! Never gave Sirius the benefit of the doubt until the end of POA. Ditto Dumbledore. In a way, Sirius was right about Pettigrew--no one would suspect him. It was just for the wrong reason. Everyone else was fair game, including Lupin. Just how I see it. Hey, no one is saying Kingsley is evil! I'll have to think on this... :-) Have fun, erin From mbush at lainc.com Thu Aug 7 21:25:11 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:25:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's 'wand hand' (was: book 5 flub) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mtwelovett" wrote: > > > > > > Dan says: > > It doesn't really matter, right? Here, get a pen or pencil out. Hold > it in either hand like a wand (make a fist, and slide it through) and > how does it feel? Give it a little wave. Say a little charm. Works > fine, right? Doesn't feel weird? Maybe there is a "wand hand" which is > one that gives more effectiveness to your charms, but we've never seen > any reference to "wand hands" besides this one. Nothing from Charms > Master Flitwick or Transfiguration Expert McGonagall, that is. Thing > is, I think Harry is ambidextrous with his wand but not writing-wise. > When he uses a pencil (erm... quill), I think he is right-handed. That > would go fine with the reference to eating clumsily... > > And I add (mtwelovett) > To add to the "experiment" If Harry is "right handed" which we'll > assume that he is, If he is opening doors where the hinge is on his > right while facing the door (opening in--away from him) chances are he > is using his right hand on the knob or to push it if there isn't one > there by crossing his arm in front of him (right hand to in front of > his left side) to push the door open. He could use his left hand to > open the door but it is more awkward with the hinge in that position. > So if this is the case, he may have his wand in his left hand more > prepared for a sudden spell than if it were mashed in his fist that > was pushing open a door, and at 12 inches, it may get in the way of > the door opening process. (Try it with a ruler if you have one handy) > The other explanation is artistic license on the Artist's behalf. > > Mtwelovett Except that in looking at the cover, that theory is blown since the illustration shows the doors opening inward with the hinges on the left... (A left hand job by my theory) sigh... I should have looked at the cover again before posting... sorry. Mtwelovett From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 21:39:53 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:39:53 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75937 acoteucla wrote: Don't forget that the reason James switched his secret-keeper from Sirius to Peter was because he and Sirius suspected Lupin! If Lupin is exactly as he seems, then I would think he would be the LEAST likely choice to be the spy. So they must have had some real good reasons for suspecting him! Tom adds: This is inconclusive reasoning - it wasn't necessarily 'James and Sirius' that suspected Lupin in particular, nor was it true that they must have had 'good reasons' for suspecting him in the first place; rather, it was much more the case that nearly *everyone* was under suspicion, and very few loyalties were concrete and taken for granted. Lupin confirms in the Shrieking Shack in PoA that *Sirius* was under suspicion as well... in fact, as Sirius acknowledges in the Shrieking Shack, he should have thought Peter was the spy from the beginning, (the signs were there) and yet he did not. And Sirius himself gives us a startling account of life during one of Voldemort's reigns of terror; part of the turmoil was the result of a general feeling of mistrust. I personally do not think that Lupin was, or is presently spying for Lord Voldemort. And, based on the way we *so* mis-predicted the death in Book Five (only three percent of the respondents to that poll thought Sirius would kick the bucket - Hagrid was the frontrunner, followed by Dumbledore) I believe it is also likely that we won't come close to guessing the identity of the present spy until the moment is upon us. Actually, I kind of like it that way, myself. Keeps the edge on, y'know? ;-) -Tom From yellows at aol.com Thu Aug 7 21:45:43 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 17:45:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tonks Message-ID: <517C072B.63218C70.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75938 In a message dated 8/7/2003 6:58:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sue writes: > Well, I think Tonks was introduced as a new character because JK had already > said that Harry would not become an animagus in the books. We already know > he can grow regrow his hair overnight, and so I think its a way of > intrducing a new 'talent' to cover the fact that he might not be able to > change himself into an animal but he will be able to alter his apprearance > at will. Sorry if this idea has already been posted, I've > been offline for a > couple of months. I think this is a good point. Why haven't we (or if we have, please direct me) heard more about Harry's inability to get a haircut since the first book? It's been in my mind ever since I started reading the series, and I've expected it to come up again, especially since the kids are starting to be interested in romance now, but it never does. I've also not heard anything that indicates other witches and wizards can regrow hair overnight without potions. Does this mean Harry has another hidden ability? Brief Chronicles From acoteucla at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 22:07:07 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:07:07 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Lupin confirms in the Shrieking Shack in PoA that *Sirius* was under > suspicion as well... That's not how I read that at ALL. Lupin came to the conclusion that Sirius was the traitor AFTER the Potters' were killed. After all, who wouldn't? I got the feeling that the only one who suspected Sirius beforehand was Snape. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 22:11:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:11:57 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: <20030807112816.55804.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > > ..., Potions is just Applied Herboloby; although, I acknowledge that it involves more that just herbs (note: the text book for Potions is '1,000 herbs and Fungi'). < < > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was a > book specifically for potions mentioned in one of the > books. ...edited... > > ===== > "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables Bboy_mn: You are right, I do need to make a correction I think. Two of the several books mentioned on Harry's first year book list are- "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" by Phyllida Spore "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger Here is why I was confused. In the first book, in the first Potions class, Snape is quizzing Harry about Asphodel, wormwood, bezoar, etc..., when Harry can't answer, Snape berates him for not having read his books. Harry replies to himself, wondering if Snape expected him to remember everything in "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi". For reference, Bezoar is neither an herb nor a fungi. That made me think that this book was the Potions book. To my knowledge, 'Magical Drafts and Potions' is never mentioned again, but I'm pretty sure '1,000 Magical Herbs and Fungi' is mentioned again in relation to potions, but right now, I can't remember which book that's in. While I got the book wrong, I still this Harry could substitute Herbology for Potions. That might make his resume a little weak, but his reputation should offset that nicely. just a thought. bboy_mn From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 22:19:00 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:19:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tonks References: <517C072B.63218C70.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75941 Brief Chronicles: I've also not heard anything that indicates other witches and wizards can regrow hair overnight without potions. Does this mean Harry has another hidden ability? Dan: That would be hilarious... a power of Voldemort, transferred to Harry, is his amazing aptitude for cosmetics! I think it's just an example of wandless magic. Neville bounces. Harry blows up abusive aunts and regrows hair. It must go away eventually, unless he's *that* scared about his appearance. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sngoing at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 22:35:25 2003 From: sngoing at yahoo.com (Steven) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:35:25 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75942 > bboy_mn: > Harry certainly did much better in potions OWLs than he thinks he did, > but there is no way he achieved 'Outstanding'. Even 'Exceeds > Expectations', while possible, is pushing it. > I am a teacher and it is my experience that students who are pushed harder by their teacher progress better. It is my opinion that Snape pushed Harry very hard and raised the bar so high that in failing under Snape's vindictive tutoring increased Harry's knowledge base. Many times Harry got the potion right only to have Snape or Draco or some accident to ruin it. Frankly, under an unbias, if not sympathic judge, it is my opinion, which is all we have since book six is yet unwritten, that Harry will achieve and achieve greatly in a course in which he has both the motivation and the talent to achieve. I mean wouldn't Harry just love to thumb his nose at Snape. Additionally, we don't know if Minerva gave Harry any extra tutoring like she suggested. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 22:41:55 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:41:55 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > bboy_mn: > > Harry certainly did much better in potions OWLs than he thinks he > > did, but there is no way he achieved 'Outstanding'. Even 'Exceeds > > Expectations', while possible, is pushing it. > greatelderone: > > How do you know he didn't? Did JKR tell you or do you have some pipe > line into her head because frankly it is far too early to be making > absolute statements like this. If anything there is a high chance > that he actually got the O in potions since Snape isn't grading the > thing and in the regular potions class Snape grades him much harder > and harsher than any of the other Gryffindor aside possibly from > Neville Longbottom. bboy_mn: My 'pipeline' is the book OoP and the entire series of books that make up the HP story. First, the OWL Potions exam. Harry found the written exam 'difficult'. In the practical exam, Harry thought is was not 'as dreadful as he had expected' but that would still imply dreadful, just not as dreadful, and that he was 'more relaxed'. Then in Harry's own words, "Harry corked his sample flask feeeling that he might not have achieved a good grade but that he had, with luck, avoided a fail." In most potions classes, we learn how badly Harry did by the color and general appearance of his potion. So Harry would have some idea whether the potion looked exactly as it should have looked. Based on his own words he doesn't seem that confident. Certainly, we all think he did better than he gives himself credit for. Harry thinks, with luck, he passed ('Acceptable'), we think he exceeded that, which would logically be 'Exceeded Expectation'. But to assume that a student, Harry, has gone from years of history as marginal and just bearly passing, all the way to 'Outstanding' is asking a little too much. No doubt he has done well, but to think he has moved to top of the class, top grades is hoping for something that certainly isn't supported by the books. I think he will get 'Exceeded Expectation', and with any potions Master other than Snape, that should be enough to get him into NEWT Potions. But to go from marginal to outstanding is just to unlikely. Just a thought. bboy_mn From biggladolaf at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 10:26:41 2003 From: biggladolaf at yahoo.com (biggladolaf) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 10:26:41 -0000 Subject: Godric's hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75944 Wasn't Gryffindor's first name Godric? Maybe it was a safe house for Gryffindors. Olaf, glad and big From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 22:52:38 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:52:38 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunalovegoodrules" wrote: > Dan: > Well, it would seem to me we need to know a little more about how > Dumbledore "defeated" Grindelwald. If that is what he is most famous > for (thanks to the Quibbler?), if that is why Voldemort fears him, > then Harry's next question should be, and one of his previous > questions should have been, "what did you do?" Me: How does the Grindlewald defeat fit in with the Quibbler? The reference I recall to this defeat was from the Chocolate Frog card which Harry had on the train in PS. Geoff From tharqueen at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 20:39:14 2003 From: tharqueen at hotmail.com (Nisha) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 20:39:14 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75946 Geoff: > > My ancient battered old "Concise Oxford French Dictionary" > > gives "vol" as flight and as an alternative to "aile" for > > wing..... "malinitosetti" wrote: > > Sorry to contradict you Geoff, but believe me, French is my mother tongue (I live in a French speaking country!) and vol does in no way mean wing... < < Me: Perhaps in the sense of "to take wing" which really means "to take flight" anyway. Nasty, confusing dictionary. "Nisha" From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 21:00:40 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:00:40 -0000 Subject: The death and ghosts (Was Died Because of Hate, Love, Old Age, Low Self-Esteem In-Reply-To: <74E9BC5A.52F3EB73.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75947 Brief Chronicles: > But I *do* think there's something fishy about the veil. Perhaps it prevented him from making that choice. What do you think? >>> I agree with you on the veil. It seems to call to certain people when they are near it. And as far as coming back, don't you think Lily and James would come back to guide Harry and let him know he is not alone? If they could that is. I think in order to become a ghost as Nick is, you have to prepare a spell or potion to be used just before death insues. Didn't Nick say that he is a part of the real Nick left behind after the real Nick passed? Kind of like the photos that move and talk and visit each other. They are nothing but slight copies of the original but in a form that does not age or die, an intelligent recording, per say? What do you think? If this true then Sirius could not come back because he had not made the prior arrangments to have a recording to leave behind. "severusbook4" From miss_america_03 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 21:22:47 2003 From: miss_america_03 at yahoo.com (miss_america_03) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:22:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's age? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75948 I'm confused on Harry's age (in real life); I thought the first book came out in 1991... "miss_america_03" From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 23:00:14 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:00:14 -0000 Subject: The death and ghosts (Was Died Because of Hate, Love, Old Age, Low Self-Esteem In-Reply-To: <74E9BC5A.52F3EB73.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/6/2003 8:14:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Alex Fox writes: > > > Sirius died because he was bored, feeling useless, and he > > was too head-strong. No other reasons. MHO. > > Okay, all of the above (but one) considered, does this really add up to someone who would die mid-battle and say, "Oh, I choose to leave the world behind and move on to the unknown"? > What I'm getting at is, would the Sirius we know choose to move on instead of becoming a ghost? I don't think Sirius will come back, that's not my point at all. But I *do* think there's something fishy about the veil. Perhaps it prevented him from making that choice. What do you think? > > Brief Chronicles I see the choice to move on as an acceptance of death, not an actual choice to stay or go. Those who refuse to accept the reality of death are the ones that stay behind as ghosts. I can see Sirius accepting - not liking it, but accepting - the fact that he crossed the veil. Note: I'm not sure Bellatrix' spell killed him. I think he died when he went through the veil. Ravenclaw Bookworm From betsymarie123 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 21:30:06 2003 From: betsymarie123 at hotmail.com (Betsy Corts) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:30:06 +0000 Subject: Harry, right- or left-handed? (was "Re: book 5 flub") Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75950 Garrett wrote: > > I just was looking at the American cover of OoP and realized that Harry had his wand in his left hand. And in PS/SS he told Ollivander he was right handed. > > "lunachapter10" : >Good catch, thanks for pointing that out! Your post made me look at >all the covers, and -- I guess the artist didn't read the first book >and nobody has corrected her about Harry being right-handed instead of >left-handed, because in CoS the Sword of Gryffindor is on the right >side of Harry's body (which means he would have drawn it out with his >left hand), in SS he is catching the snitch in his left hand, in PoA >he is holding Buckbeak's reigns in his left hand, and in GoF he has >his wand in his left hand too. >>> Hello everyone. As I recall, on SS when Harry was looking for his wand, he said that he could use both hands. So, I don't think of this as a flub. But, maybe this is something that in the future will help him defeat Voldemort (I don't know maybe he has to use his left arm instead of this right..... Regards Betsy From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 23:04:55 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:04:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's 'wand hand' (was: book 5 flub) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > > I am surprised to see this too. I wondered about this as well when > the artwork for the books was released. See below... > --- > Correct me if I'm wrong, but Harry is right hand dominant per the > book, and the movies, right?. > > So, why on the Goblet and Phoenix covers is Harry holding the wand > with his left hand? Is he all of a sudden ampedextrious ....ambidextrous is the word you want. If I dare whisper "movies" in the group, on the DVD cover for COS, Harry is holding Gryffindor's sword in his left hand. Geoff From sarahlizzy at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 21:34:20 2003 From: sarahlizzy at hotmail.com (sarah_haining) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:34:20 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75952 I was re-reading PoA recently and during Harry and Hermione's Time - Turner shenanigans a thought occurred to me. I haven't been reading the 'hints that Sirius would die' posts (still not over it:) so forgive me if this has already been brought up. Anyhoo, we know that it is against one of the strictest Wizarding laws to go back and alter time - it simply should not be done unless under very safe/strict circumstances. Harry and Hermione should not have by rights been using it, thus, Sirius was destined to die. He was supposed to die that night at the hands (sorry, mouth ;) of the Dementors. The fact that he was saved by Harry simply meant that he was essentially living on borrowed time; two years of it to be precise. So, whilst I was congratulating myself on my linkage I realised - who else was supposed to die that night? Who else was about to be kissed? Harry. Harry is also living on time that, by rights, shouldn't be his. Is his time also going to run out soon? I admit, in light of the prophecy this does get confusing. It could be argued that Harry could not be killed by the Dementors or the fact that Harry had the opportunity to save himself shows that the circumsatnce just wont arise where he could be killed by anyone other than Lord Thingy. I really don't want to get bogged down in that too much as I think, in any case, this may just be a big, nasty pointer as to whether Harry is going to survive the final showdown. Someone tell me I wrong! -Sarah From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 21:35:04 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:35:04 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75953 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki > > wrote: > > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought there was a > > > book specifically for potions mentioned in one of the > > > books. I know there has been some speculation about a > > > Jiggers writing a book, but as I'm not with my books > > > right now, I can't look it up. >>> Got the book right here: Magical Drafts and Potions, by Arsenius Jigger, (SS/PS USpaperback p66). Shirley From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 23:09:22 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:09:22 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: <3F32BDDA.9050702@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" wrote: > greatelderone wrote (2003-08-07 22:15): > > >Why should we? The fact that he constantly complains about his > >problems when there are students like Neville who are scorned and > >mocked constantly by everyone and yet go on living and complain > >little about their problems. > > > Now, what is wrong with complaining? > Pshemekan I have 2 suggestions: 1. Listen to the people around you all day (including your own comments)... Can you believe this....This stinks....Did you *hear* what Soandso said... Complaining is a fact of life. Some people do it more than others. 2. For those of us living with teenagers, complaining isn't a fact of life, it is a way of life. And it usually is accompanied by a whine. Ron seems like a typical teenager to me. BTW Hermione complains too, but we laugh at her complaints about things like teachers cancelling homework after she has done it. Ravenclaw Bookworm From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 23:12:54 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 16:12:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's age? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75955 "miss_america_03" I'm confused on Harry's age (in real life); I thought the first book came out in 1991... Dan: I believe he's 23 (if he were alive)... -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 23:13:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:13:47 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo > wrote: > > > > > > B Arrowsmith wrote: > > Kneasy said: > > > > . . . I can only find Godrics Hollow referred to as 'house' not > a 'home', ...edited... > > So, is it home? If not, where is? And who has the keys? > > > > > Scott: > > ... The HP Lexicon says it's a Muggle Village where Lilly and > > James had a cottage.... > > > > owlery2003 > > > > > > Me: > PS (page 14 "The Boy Who Lived") McGonagall speaking - > > "What they're /saying/," she pressed on, "is that last night > Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. > The rumour is that Lily and James Potter are - are -that they're - > /dead/". > > ...edited... > > Geoff bboy_mn: Geoff, I noticed something significant about the quote you posted, its says 'IN Godric's Hollow', not AT Gordric's Hollow. 'AT' would imply a precise location; I was AT the church, I was AT the stadium. While a person could rigthly say, I was IN the church, that doesn't fit the context of the quote. As another example, it would be more proper to say that I am IN London, than to say I am AT London. So that implies that Godric's Hollow is a town or village rather than the name of a mansion, manor, or country estate. Also, other people have lived in Godric's Hollow, for example, Bowman Wright of Godric's Hollow is the inventor of the Golden Snitch. I think the clues in the book would lead us to the same conclusion that the HP Lexicon reached, and that is that Godric's Hollow is a village. And given that we see many other wizards living amoung muggle, I think it is safe to assume that Godric's Hollow is not a magical place. Hagrid implies that he had to get Harry out before the muggles came swarming around. To the main question of what happen to the Potter house in Godric's Hollow, we first need to decide if this was a house they were renting or a house they owned. The next step, assuming ownership, is to ponder whether this was the ancestral home of the Potter's, or just Lily and James house? The next step assuming ownership and ancestral home, is whether this was a cottage, a nice house, or a mansion. Then we can finally ponder it's location and fate. My position right now, with admittedly little to back it up, is that it was either rented or a small cottage that James and Lily owned. The next question I must ponder given that James seems to have inherited significant wealth, where is the Potter ancestral home? Enquiring minds want to know. bboy_mn From pat7597 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 21:50:39 2003 From: pat7597 at yahoo.com (dianna york) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 14:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tonks In-Reply-To: <517C072B.63218C70.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030807215039.22670.qmail@web80301.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75957 Sue writes: > Well, I think Tonks was introduced as a new character because JK had already said that Harry would not become an animagus in the books. We already know he can grow regrow his hair overnight, and so I think its a way of introducing a new 'talent' to cover the fact that he might not be able to change himself into an animal but he will be able to alter his appearance at will. >>> Brief Chronicles: >> Why haven't we (or if we have, please direct me) heard more about Harry's inability to get a haircut since the first book? It's been in my mind ever since I started reading the series, and I've expected it to come up again, especially since the kids are starting to be interested in romance now, but it never does. >> Well, Tonks; I think Harry is growing up alright but with that last book he has lost his god-father and he is alone again, not including the Dursleys. dianna From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 21:53:52 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:53:52 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <5.2.0.9.2.20030807143234.00aec598@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, music4masses wrote: [[*huge* amount of snipping]] Erin said: I'm not sure there is > even a spy in the Order. It just seems formulai...wait, Hedwig perhaps? :-) > Erin Now Shirley comments: Thank you for voicing a thought that has been running (and trampling everything in its path, unfortunately) through my mind as I have read this entire thread. Maybe I just haven't read enough "classic" literature to know the formula, but *must* we have a spy and/or a betrayal????? I really don't want that, not that I expect JKR to take my wishes into account ;). But, then, as much as I love lurking and reading everyone's posts and theories, I am also in the camp that is waiting (albeit impatiently) for the next book so I can just get on with reading a great story. So, on with the great debate[s].... Shirley, who has decided to re-read the entire series for comfort and continuity (and because I can't seem to let go)... From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 23:23:35 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:23:35 -0000 Subject: Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nisha" wrote: > > > Me: > Perhaps in the sense of "to take wing" which really means "to > take flight" anyway. Nasty, confusing dictionary. > > "Nisha" Oi, watch it! You are speaking of a publication which is revered by Brits as the last word in analysis of a word. None of your cheap Chambers or Pitmans or whatever, the OED is sacrosanct. :-) From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 23:25:31 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:25:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's age? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > I'm confused on Harry's age (in real life); I thought the first book > came out in 1991... > > "miss_america_03" Nope. First published in Great Britain 1997. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 23:30:56 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:30:56 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75961 Having followed this thread for a long period, can I ask a silly question? Where does the idea of having a betrayal come from in the first place? Also, I have been trying to find when the thread originated; anyone know when... Geoff From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Thu Aug 7 23:31:47 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:31:47 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sarah_haining" wrote: > I was re-reading PoA recently and during Harry and Hermione's Time - > Turner shenanigans a thought occurred to me. I haven't been reading > the 'hints that Sirius would die' posts (still not over it:) so > forgive me if this has already been brought up. Anyhoo, we know that > it is against one of the strictest Wizarding laws to go back and > alter time - it simply should not be done unless under very > safe/strict circumstances. Harry and Hermione should not have by > rights been using it, thus, Sirius was destined to die. He was > supposed to die that night at the hands (sorry, mouth ;) of the > Dementors. The fact that he was saved by Harry simply meant that he > was essentially living on borrowed time; two years of it to be > precise. > > So, whilst I was congratulating myself on my linkage I realised - > who else was supposed to die that night? Who else was about to be > kissed? Harry. Harry is also living on time that, by rights, > shouldn't be his. Is his time also going to run out soon? > > I admit, in light of the prophecy this does get confusing. It could > be argued that Harry could not be killed by the Dementors or the > fact that Harry had the opportunity to save himself shows that the > circumsatnce just wont arise where he could be killed by anyone > other than Lord Thingy. I really don't want to get bogged down in > that too much as I think, in any case, this may just be a big, nasty > pointer as to whether Harry is going to survive the final showdown. > Someone tell me I wrong! > > -Sarah I inquire: How do you know that you are ultimately doomed to the fate you avoided by using the time-turner? I never saw any evidence of this idea. Jennifer From kfc4588 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 23:32:48 2003 From: kfc4588 at yahoo.com (kfc4588) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:32:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's age? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" > wrote: > > I'm confused on Harry's age (in real life); I thought the first > book > > came out in 1991... > > > > "miss_america_03" > > Nope. First published in Great Britain 1997. thats when it was first published but harry's first year is 1991 (because the 2nd book had to be in 1992 as it was nicks 500th deathday and he died in 1492) so it was published in 1997 but the story began in 1991 :) -casey From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 7 23:34:25 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:34:25 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > > I inquire: > How do you know that you are ultimately doomed to the fate you > avoided by using the time-turner? I never saw any evidence of this > idea. > Jennifer Me: I am reminded of a comment made by Miles O'Brien in "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" when he gets involved with himself five hours in the future: I hate Temporal Mechanics. From betsymarie123 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 22:02:46 2003 From: betsymarie123 at hotmail.com (Betsy Corts) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:02:46 +0000 Subject: Harry and Occlumency ( was Re: Harry in the Order?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75965 KathyK: > Dumbledore should have told him the truth and he >should have made *sure* Harry learned Occlumency from either Snape >or himself. Since he failed to to this, Harry should not be allowed >in the Order until he learns how to block Voldemort from his mind >properly. Otherwise, Harry's presence jeopardizes the members and >whatever plans they have in the works that Harry has knowledge of. >I don't dispute that Dumbledore's made errors. I don't dispute that >Harry belongs in the Order. But he cannot be allowed in until >Voldemort no longer has access to Harry, no matter what Dumbledore >has told or not told Harry. It's too dangerous for everyone else. I'm guessing here... but what if Dumbledore teach Harry Occlumency instead of Snape. Surely, Harry will learn it really fast and then, he will be able to join the order. I guess Dumbledore owes it to him for all the mistakes he had done with Harry. What do you think of this?? Betsy From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 22:29:55 2003 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:29:55 -0000 Subject: Who did Bertha see kissing Florence? Lucius Malfoy, anyone?? In-Reply-To: <20030807112002.2006.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75966 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki > Where is this in the books? I've read them several > times, but still miss them. Can anyone point out the > book, c The book is GOF the chapter is 30 and the page is 598 and 599 of the American book. Hope that this helps. Sherry From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 22:39:26 2003 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:39:26 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic)VERY LONGISH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > > bibphile: wrote >> (weren't their parents muggles like Hermione's? My question here is what are we basing the muggle theory on? I have read and reread the books and no where have I found the sentence that Lily's parents were muggles. The only thing close is in the first book when Petunia is talking and says, quoting her parents "Isn't it grand we have a witch in the family". Doesn't say she is the only one, just that they have one. Since there are no grandparents as yet and no other family how are we basing the fact that they are muggles? And has anyone seen anything to indicate that James was a pureblood ? I wondered about his side of the family. So hope this one goes through. thanks sherry From jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 23:04:28 2003 From: jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com (Jonathan) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:04:28 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75968 For example.. OoP 16/342 (US) it sounds like a big secret that Harry can cast a Patronus. But, in PoA 13/262, Harry casts a Patronus *in the middle of a Quidditch match*. You'd think a few Hogwarts students might have noticed then. "Jonathan" From jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 23:18:02 2003 From: jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com (Jonathan) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:18:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's age? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > I'm confused on Harry's age (in real life); I thought the first book came out in 1991... >>> "Canon" dating comes from CoS, when we learn that the deathday party is in October *1992*. Harry is 12 at that time, therefore born in 1980. "Jonathan" From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 23:14:30 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:14:30 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75970 "Steve" wrote: > I think Harry and Sirius had a symbiotic relationship going. A relationship that was mutually delusional. Although, to use the word 'delusional' seems a bit harsh, perhaps, a mutually illusional relationship would be better. > > I see a very dark turn for Harry in the next book; a dark turn that scares me more than Voldemort. If I had to sum up Harry's new dark attitude in the fewest words, it would go something like this- 'Why love or be loved when it can never end in anything but death?' > > That's a very scary and a very lonely way to live. >>> Laura: Calling the relationship delusional or even illusional (is that a word?) seems harsh to me. Part of the problem here was that these 2 people just didn't know each other very well, and when you are in the early stages of a relationship it's easy to make incorrect assumptions. The person you're getting to know reminds you of someone else, or they look like someone else, or you misinterpret their actions...any or all of these can happen. Yes, they needed each other and that need drove some of their behavior toward each other. But they would have come to know each other better over time and with closer and more regular contact. I don't see any evidence that Sirius really ever confused Harry with James. James would be his point of reference for Harry, of course- all of us who know our friends' children look for the adult in the child. But Sirius said what he said in OoP out of frustration, not confusion. Molly was just being spiteful. As for the darker direction of the next books...Steve is right about Harry's state of mind. Keeping his humanity is in fact Harry's ultimate challenge. If he kills LV but loses his capacity to love in the process, he's lost the war-at least his own personal one. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 23:51:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:51:50 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" > wrote: > {{{snip}}} > Sue said: > > Well, I think Tonks was introduced as a new character because JK > > had already said that Harry would not become an animagus in the > > books. > > Sue > > Now me: > *Where/when* did JKR say that Harry would not become an animagus in > the books? > bboy_mn: She didn't say it in the books, JKR said it in an interview. Her personal statements as to what will and will not happen in the series are considerd 'good as gold'. > ... I read a post sometime in the last couple of weeks that James' > Patronus (as well as his animagus form) was a stag. ...edited... > > Shirley, bboy_mn: My guess is that this was a guess or speculation on someone's part. I don't recall this being stated in any book or in any interview. But someone could have concluded that since a person animagus for reflects their personality and their patronus is a reflection of their personality, that the two might be the same. Just a thought. bboy_mn From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 00:07:02 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:07:02 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > My guess is that this was a guess or speculation on someone's part. I don't recall this being stated in any book or in any interview. But someone could have concluded that since a person animagus for reflects their personality and their patronus is a reflection of their personality, that the two might be the same. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn The marauders' nicknames seem to reflect their animal forms, so it makes sense that "Prongs" is stag. Has anyone found and actual reference yet? Ravenclaw Bookworm From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 00:07:22 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:07:22 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" > > wrote: > > {{{snip}}} > > Sue said: > > > Well, I think Tonks was introduced as a new character because JK > > > had already said that Harry would not become an animagus in the > > > books. > > > Sue > > > > Now me: > > *Where/when* did JKR say that Harry would not become an animagus in > > the books? > > > > bboy_mn: > She didn't say it in the books, JKR said it in an interview. Her > personal statements as to what will and will not happen in the series > are considerd 'good as gold'. > > > > > ... I read a post sometime in the last couple of weeks that James' > > Patronus (as well as his animagus form) was a stag. ...edited... > > > > Shirley, > > > bboy_mn: > > My guess is that this was a guess or speculation on someone's part. I > don't recall this being stated in any book or in any interview. But > someone could have concluded that since a person animagus for reflects > their personality and their patronus is a reflection of their > personality, that the two might be the same. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Lupin said that james was a stag, and i think the animal you turn into is aslo your patronus Garrett From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 00:17:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:17:35 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > > > My guess is that this was a guess or speculation on someone's > > part. ... someone could have concluded that since a person animagus > > form reflects their personality and their patronus is a reflection > > of their personality, that the two might be the same. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > > > > Lupin said that james was a stag, and i think the animal you turn > into is aslo your patronus > Garrett bboy_mn: Agreed, it is specifically state that James animagus for was a Stag, and it would be a very reasonable assumption to think that James patronus was a Stag, but regardless of how reasonable, until we see proof, it is none the less an assumption. just a thought. bboy_mn From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 00:24:17 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:24:17 -0000 Subject: GoF Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sueeeyqbong" wrote: > When reading your post, it also lead me to ponder on whether Voldemort will turn out to be the biggest 'baddy' after all, or whether there may be someone else in the wings who will turn out to be an even greater threat than Voldemort. Everyone's attentions during the series so far have been intensely focused on Voldemort/Riddle as the main adversary. Wouldn't it be a great plot device if it turned out that we may have been looking in the wrong direction all along? Barty Crouch junior would have been a great candidate for the 'even more evil than Voldemort' role, though of course, he's out of the action since the end of GoF...presumably. Anyone else got anything to add to this? > Sue How about Lucius Malfoy? He is so delightfully and silkily (is that a word?) nasty. And he doesn't seem to be terribly upset when Voldemort scolds him at the re-birthday party. Ravenclaw Bookworm From subrosax at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 00:28:32 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:28:32 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75976 Has anyone else noticed the similarities between Peter Pettigrew and Colin Creevey? Both are smallish, with mouse-coloured hair, and both of them seem to be rather excitable. Neither appears to be terribly bright. And of course they are both cringing syncophants. Coincidence?!! I think not!!!! Admittedly, the dynamic between Pettigrew and the Marauders is very different to Harry's realtionship with Creevey. Still, I wonder how much longer Colin can sustain this unrequited boy-crush on Harry? How long before he rushes into Voldemorts loving clutches? Just a thought. Allyson From jlh_hp at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 00:46:48 2003 From: jlh_hp at yahoo.com (janna) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:46:48 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75977 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: Having followed this thread for a long period, can I ask a silly question? Where does the idea of having a betrayal come from in the first place? Also, I have been trying to find when the thread originated; anyone know when... > Geoff ~janna~ I could be wrong (it happens a lot) but I think the most recent round of spy/betrayal/mole in the order threads seem to have started at post 73564. Doesn't it make sense though? As I posed in 73785, why would Snape be the only spy? He works with/for Dumbledore. Surely Lord Thingy has at least one person willing/able to gain trust and infiltrate the Order, doesn't he? His followers are both quite deceitful to others and loyal to him. I would be disappointed in him as a villain if there were not a spy/betrayer in the order. Personally it would be best if that were not true, but as each book gets a little bit darker, it seems unavoidable that someone is really working for the dark side. ~janna~ From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 01:03:32 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:03:32 -0000 Subject: Harry and Occlumency ( was Re: Harry in the Order?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75978 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Betsy Cort?s" wrote: > KathyK: > > Dumbledore should have told him the truth and he > >should have made *sure* Harry learned Occlumency from either Snape > >or himself. Since he failed to to this, Harry should not be allowed > >in the Order until he learns how to block Voldemort from his mind > >properly. Otherwise, Harry's presence jeopardizes the members and > >whatever plans they have in the works that Harry has knowledge of. > >I don't dispute that Dumbledore's made errors. I don't dispute that > >Harry belongs in the Order. But he cannot be allowed in until > >Voldemort no longer has access to Harry, no matter what Dumbledore > >has told or not told Harry. It's too dangerous for everyone else. > > > I'm guessing here... but what if Dumbledore teach Harry Occlumency > instead of Snape. Surely, Harry will learn it really fast and then, > he will be able to join the order. I guess Dumbledore owes it to him > for all the mistakes he had done with Harry. What do you think of > this?? > > Betsy I agree, Dumbledore should be the one to teach Harry Occlumency, considering having Snape teach Harry failed spectacularly. Dumbledore does owe Harry for hiding the truth and putting him through all that uncertainty. Harry needs to learn to keep Voldemort out of his mind as soon as possible. Dumbledore told Harry about the prophecy after spending the entire yeart trying to keep Harry and Lord Thingy in the dark. What's to stop Voldemort from invading Harry's mind and learning about it? What's to stop him from possessing Harry again? Harry was able to stop Voldemort's possession once, what's to say he'd be able to do it again? He needs proper training to protect himself and the Order (if he is to become a member) and Dumbledore is the one to do it. I liked what I wrote before I got kicked off line better, but this will have to do, KathyK (missing her own computer and her DSL connection) From maidne at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 01:45:09 2003 From: maidne at yahoo.com (maidne) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:45:09 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75979 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: >> > bboy_mn: > Agreed, it is specifically state that James animagus for was a Stag, > and it would be a very reasonable assumption to think that James > patronus was a Stag, but regardless of how reasonable, until we see > proof, it is none the less an assumption. > > just a thought. > > bboy_mn For that matter, why should we assume that James ever had reason to produce a patronus? The dementors don't seem to have left Azkaban much until recently, so chances are he never ran into one. Susan From MagRig13 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 02:17:24 2003 From: MagRig13 at aol.com (american_pie8887) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:17:24 -0000 Subject: Harry, right- or left-handed? (was "Re: book 5 flub") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Betsy Cort?s" wrote: > Garrett wrote: > > > I just was looking at the American cover of OoP and realized > that Harry had his wand in his left hand. And in PS/SS he told > Ollivander he was right handed. > > > > "lunachapter10" : > >Good catch, thanks for pointing that out! Your post made me look at > >all the covers, and -- I guess the artist didn't read the first book > >and nobody has corrected her about Harry being right-handed instead of > >left-handed, because in CoS the Sword of Gryffindor is on the right > >side of Harry's body (which means he would have drawn it out with his > >left hand), in SS he is catching the snitch in his left hand, in PoA > >he is holding Buckbeak's reigns in his left hand, and in GoF he has > >his wand in his left hand too. >>> > > Hello everyone. As I recall, on SS when Harry was looking for his wand, he > said that he could use both hands. So, I don't think of this as a flub. > But, maybe this is something that in the future will help him defeat > Voldemort (I don't know maybe he has to use his left arm instead of this > right..... > > Regards > Betsy I posted about this a while ago,andI wish i could remember which intereview JKR said it, but I specfically remember someone asking about that concerning th OOP cover and she said that it was NOT a mistake! So who knows? ~~Mags From darkthirty at shaw.ca Fri Aug 8 02:23:50 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (lunalovegoodrules) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:23:50 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunalovegoodrules" > wrote: > > > > Dan: > > Well, it would seem to me we need to know a little more about how > > Dumbledore "defeated" Grindelwald. If that is what he is most > famous > > for (thanks to the Quibbler?), if that is why Voldemort fears him, > > then Harry's next question should be, and one of his previous > > questions should have been, "what did you do?" > > Me: > How does the Grindlewald defeat fit in with the Quibbler? The > reference I recall to this defeat was from the Chocolate Frog card > which Harry had on the train in PS. > > Geoff That Dumbledore is famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald is not because he's on a chocolate frog card, rather, he's on a chocolate frog card because he's famous, and he became famous by his deeds vs Grindelwald becoming known to everyone. In the books, this being known to everyone has involved wizard papers. My point, however, was clearly that Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald might mean something in regards to Voldemort and Tom Riddle. How did he defeat Grindelwald? Was it connected in some way to Riddle, etc... I frankly don't understand what you are questioning. I said his fame might have been spread through the quibbler, as a newspaper. It's not a theory. dan From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 02:38:20 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 19:38:20 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tactics & Prescience References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75982 > Dan: > > Well, it would seem to me we need to know a little more about how > > Dumbledore "defeated" Grindelwald. If that is what he is most > famous > > for (thanks to the Quibbler?), if that is why Voldemort fears him, > > then Harry's next question should be, and one of his previous > > questions should have been, "what did you do?" > > Me: > How does the Grindlewald defeat fit in with the Quibbler? The > reference I recall to this defeat was from the Chocolate Frog card > which Harry had on the train in PS. > > Geoff Dan: That Dumbledore is famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald is not because he's on a chocolate frog card, rather, he's on a chocolate frog card because he's famous, and he became famous by his deeds vs Grindelwald becoming known to everyone. In the books, this being known to everyone has involved wizard papers. My point, however, was clearly that Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald might mean something in regards to Voldemort and Tom Riddle. How did he defeat Grindelwald? Was it connected in some way to Riddle, etc... Dan (a different one): I think it was connected to Hitler, if anything. Note that Grindelwald was defeated the same year as the end of WWII (according to the Lexicon, anyways), which is the same year the Riddle graduates. Connection? Oh yes, oh yes. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From meltowne at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 02:42:13 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:42:13 -0000 Subject: Wizard Genetics - Or fun with Mendel's peas.. In-Reply-To: <3F31B221.2080704@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > WW + Ww = 3/4 wizard children > Out of 4 kids: > 1 squib > 3 wizards a correction: 1/2 WW Squibs 1/2 Ww Wizards From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 02:45:19 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 02:45:19 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75984 > > Dan: > > > Well, it would seem to me we need to know a little more about how > > > Dumbledore "defeated" Grindelwald. If that is what he is most > > famous > > > for (thanks to the Quibbler?), if that is why Voldemort fears > him, > > > then Harry's next question should be, and one of his previous > > > questions should have been, "what did you do?" > > > > Me: > > How does the Grindlewald defeat fit in with the Quibbler? The > > reference I recall to this defeat was from the Chocolate Frog card > > which Harry had on the train in PS. > > > > Geoff > > That Dumbledore is famous for his defeat of the dark wizard > Grindelwald is not because he's on a chocolate frog card, rather, > he's on a chocolate frog card because he's famous, and he became > famous by his deeds vs Grindelwald becoming known to everyone. In the > books, this being known to everyone has involved wizard papers. My > point, however, was clearly that Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald > might mean something in regards to Voldemort and Tom Riddle. How did > he defeat Grindelwald? Was it connected in some way to Riddle, etc... > > I frankly don't understand what you are questioning. I said his fame > might have been spread through the quibbler, as a newspaper. It's not > a theory. > > dan KathyK (butting in): I know I'm not involved at all in the above, but as I've nothing better to do, I thought I'd just give my take of this small misunderstanding above. Dan was, as he states above, wondering if maybe Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald was spread through the Quibbler. Geoff interpreted Dan's phrase "(thanks to the Quibbler?)" as getting information about the defeat of Grindelwald from the Quibbler. Thus his reply that it appeared on the chocolate frog card. I don't think he was saying that Dumbledore got famous because of his mention on the card. In relation to this thread, I agree that Grindelwald (and his defeat at the hands of Dumbledore) have something to do with Voldemort. I have no ideas on how they're related, though, so I'll stop there. From meltowne at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 03:20:27 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:20:27 -0000 Subject: Poor Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermys_quill" wrote: > Little Draco the Death Eater in training knew various secrets which > most of his schoolmates including trio did not. - courtsey his > precious "Father". After first Slytherin/Gryffindor match in OOTP > Draco insulted Harry's mother also. I wonder, did he pointing that > she was not from rich family saying something like her place was also > stinking like Weaselys(I do not have book right now). I think, > Draco's comments always had some hidden meaning. Had they not? Maybe that's where the WW connection comes from. Her hair is red, after all. Doesn't Ron have an uncle who is an accountant? Given the life spans of wizards, an uncle could be old enough to be Harry's grandfather, or maybe even great grandfather - and as an accountant might live as a muggle instead of as a squibb. Maybe he had a daughter who married an Evans and had 2 daughters - Lily and Petunia? From meltowne at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 03:32:01 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:32:01 -0000 Subject: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > > 1968(?) Charlie > > More likely 1966 or 1967 if he finished school in 1985. > > > 1970(?) Bill (Possibly Tonks) > > This is off. Bill is older than Charlie. More likely 1964 or > 1965. If Tonks is new at being an Auror in OotP, perhaps with only > a year or two of experience, and she took three years to train as an > Auror (and started training right after Hogwarts) that would make > her about 23 at the beginning of OotP, or most likely born in 1972. > I can't find the reference, but I think I recall Ron mentioning that Ginny has wanted to attend Hogwarts since Charlie got his letter. That would imply that Charlie is less than 10 years older than Ginny - but at least 7 years older than Ron , meaning he was born between 1971 and 1973. If someone else finds that reference, let me know. There's also a reference in GoF from either Charlie or Bill stating when they had last been at Hogwarts - don't know if that was as a student, or to visit a younger sibling. Melinda From darkthirty at shaw.ca Fri Aug 8 03:32:52 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (lunalovegoodrules) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:32:52 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75987 > dan: > That Dumbledore is famous for his defeat of the dark wizard > Grindelwald is not because he's on a chocolate frog card, rather, > he's on a chocolate frog card because he's famous, and he became > famous by his deeds vs Grindelwald becoming known to everyone. In the > books, this being known to everyone has involved wizard papers. My > point, however, was clearly that Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald > might mean something in regards to Voldemort and Tom Riddle. How did > he defeat Grindelwald? Was it connected in some way to Riddle, etc... > > Dan (a different one): > I think it was connected to Hitler, if anything. Note that Grindelwald was defeated the same year as the end of WWII (according to the Lexicon, anyways), which is the same year the Riddle graduates. Connection? Oh yes, oh yes. Dan, I am fully with you on this, my very first post to the group alluded to the association between the ww and the rw - the strength of that connection regarding Grindelwald is the name itself, the year of his defeat, obviously, and the fact that Harry knew this very early on in his ww experiences. Also, Riddle's connection with Grindelwald could have been around the time of the first opening of the chamber, either before (he got help from Grindelwald or from chessmaster dumbledore) or after... I assume before, of course. The point is, the more I think about it, the more it becomes evident that perhaps Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald in some way compromises his relationship to Tom Riddle (and Lord Voldemort) and Harry Potter, and maybe the current head of Slytherin :) dan (PS Dan, use dan, not Dan, to identify me, or call me dan of BIC LIGHTER) From britta at britta.com Fri Aug 8 00:10:34 2003 From: britta at britta.com (brittadotcom) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:10:34 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? (was:Re: Harry in Potions NEWT) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75988 > Bboy_mn: > Two of the several books mentioned on Harry's first year book list are- > > "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi" by Phyllida Spore > > "Magical Drafts and Potions" by Arsenius Jigger > > Here is why I was confused. In the first book, in the first Potions > class, Snape is quizzing Harry about Asphodel, wormwood, bezoar, > etc..., when Harry can't answer, Snape berates him for not having read > his books. Harry replies to himself, wondering if Snape expected him > to remember everything in "One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi". For > reference, Bezoar is neither an herb nor a fungi. > > That made me think that this book was the Potions book. To my > knowledge, 'Magical Drafts and Potions' is never mentioned again, but > I'm pretty sure '1,000 Magical Herbs and Fungi' is mentioned again in > relation to potions, but right now, I can't remember which book that's in. I thought the same as you...1000 Magical Herbs & Fungi was referenced only in Potions class in OotP, not before...Personally I noticed since I had scoured HP1-4 for any book titles & authors so I could make them as props for my Hogwarts party last year...I had always assumed 1000 Magical Herbs & Fungi was a Herbology text, so I was surprised when Harry used it in Potions in OotP. Sorry I can't give the page ref, since my copy of OotP is now with my mother out of town...I had to read it twice before I'd allow her to have custody... :) Oh, if anyone's interested, here's the link to my Hogwarts party last year: http://www.britta.com/hogwarts ...and closeups of some of my book props here: http://www.britta.com/hogwarts/prep/index.html#books (I'm still working on getting my Year Five at Hogwarts party website up) Thanks! Britta Britta Blvd is located at http://www.britta.com From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 00:18:14 2003 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:18:14 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75989 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: In a message dated 7/31/03 9:17:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, bibphile at y... writes: I was under the impression (though I admit that I don't know why) that only O.W.L.s counted fifth year. Basically if you pass the test you pass even if you have straight zeros and if you fail the test you fail even if you have straight 100's. > > Ok I have a different opionion of this. When Fred and George took there OWL's they still passed 5th grade. There mom was complaining about how few they got. I think what the OWL's do is give options as to what classes you get to take 6th year. Remember Magonagel talking to Harry about how you need really high marks to become an AUROR. So not sure if that helps or not but I don't think you fail your year if you fail your OWL's. You just can't get into some higher classes. Sort of like an OWL would be a prerequisite class for college here in the states. sherry From dcyasser at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 00:18:36 2003 From: dcyasser at yahoo.com (dcyasser) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:18:36 -0000 Subject: Thoughts Leaving Deeper Scarring Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75990 I have been following the board and searched the archives and have not come across discussion of the delicious line toward the end of OoP regarding Ron's injuries: "According to Madame Pomfrey, thoughts could leave deeper scarring than almost anything else, though since she had started applying copious amounts of Dr. Ubbly's Oblivious Unction, there seemed to be some improvement." (US hardcover p.847) What a feast! First off I'll admit that I have not been properly able to sort through all that happened to Ron at the Department of Mysteries and its significance; I find it rather dizzying to contemplate what was meant by showing him in such an addled (and eventually dangerous) state. Both there and in Madame Pomfrey's comment, I wonder does Ron in this instance represent the wizarding world or human nature ? easily confused, attacked and overwhelmed by the opinions of others (Daily Prophet and Ministry)? We don't know what kind of curse he is under, therefore we don't know why he is behaving the way he is, but he doesn't make sense. Shown to be without common sense or judgment, he recklessly calls the brain out of the tank, and it attacks him, and even though he fights it, it leaves him with the deep scars of someone else's thoughts. Wow, sounds like the cultural media coloring our unconscious perception even when we try to avoid it; or sounds like the entire wizarding world believing Harry is a nutter because the Daily Prophet says so. Now that Harry is proved right, will the WW forget they ever doubted him? Yup ? copious amounts of oblivious unction ? one part time, one part revisionist history, will absolve them! Then there's a completely different take: maybe Ron's difficulties and this specific curse, making him giggle and lurch and tell juvenile jokes, was to show that Harry and Hermione had matured beyond Ron in terms of action and responsibility, particularly when they ditched Quidditch for the more pressing matter of Grawp, while Ron was finally achieving Quidditch glory. I don't really like this thought so don't try to back it up much. Back to the deeper scarring, it could lead us back to Brooding! Harry, as if he isn't scarred enough already, being further scarred by his thoughts of guilt over Sirius, anger at Snape and Dumbledore, and angst about the future in general. Harry is stubborn in his opinions, after all; they have certainly marked him. Do they open him up to, er, persuasions from LV? Or perhaps, for the Ron-is-an-evil-betrayer theorists, Ron is the one who has physically been scarred by someone else's thoughts will these unknown thoughts, or his own brooding, leave him scarred enough to do the unthinkable? So many theories, so little time to type! Cheers dc From brenerik at aol.com Fri Aug 8 00:30:53 2003 From: brenerik at aol.com (brenerik at aol.com) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 20:30:53 EDT Subject: Family & Money Message-ID: <1a0.18c820a7.2c64493d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 75991 I was reading through some old interviews and such with JKR and came across this little tidbit... What did James and Lily Potter do when they were alive? "Well, I can't go into too much detail, because you're going to find out in future books. But James inherited plenty of money, so he didn't need a well-paid profession. You'll find out more about both Harry's parents later. " http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-livechat-aol.html This led me to two questions and I hate to be redundent if this has already been discussed: Any speculation on what exactly James' family did? I've read each of the books twice and I feel like I'm still missing something. Then my other question has to do with pure bloods and interconnections between families. Harry must have other family members somewhere in the wizarding world shouldn't he? After reading all of the connections to and within the Black family it seems strange that Harry would be the absolute end of the Potter blood line. This is my first post and I can honestly say that I've loved this list ! Hoping to participate more in the future. ~Bren [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sues0101 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 00:35:22 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:35:22 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75992 >From: "Shirley" > >*Where/when* did JKR say that Harry would not become an animagus in >the books? That's news to me, although it wasn't something I >considered a necessary plot twist. I just figured that, at some >point Harry might want to also become an animagus since his father >was. And, if that's an inherited skill (who knows?), then it might >be easier for him to learn. > Me: Maybe I got it wrong, I read it in a post somehwere on some list a long long time ago, that JK had said this. Might have been a couple of years ago, in a discussion about PoA when we learn about James' ability. Back then, I assumed he would become an animagus, just accepted that this would be one more thing that Harry would be able to do that was not a 'usual' magical ability. These abilities seemed to me logical - animagus, apparition and wandless magic. What was the point of introducing them to us as things wizards could do if Harry who was to defeat Voldy wasnt able to perform them? Then after that discussion, I remember I was disappointed and wondered what she would introduce instead. I was waiting for somthing else to be similar but not the same as animagus. Metamorpmagus seemed to fit the spot perfectly. Especially as we already knew he could change at least a part of his appearance. I hope someone on this list knows if JK actually did say that. Help! If she did not say that then I"ll just go plonk my head in a bucket of sand ducking all the tomatoes. Sue (who is hoping that at last she might have got posting a reply right (Yes? No?)) _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. Get larger attachments - send/receive up to 3MB attachments (up to three times more per e-mail). Click here http://join.msn.com/ From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 8 01:03:20 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 21:03:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? References: Message-ID: <3F32F6D8.5020109@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 75993 Jonathan wrote: > For example.. OoP 16/342 (US) it sounds like a big secret that > Harry can cast a Patronus. > > But, in PoA 13/262, Harry casts a Patronus *in the middle of a > Quidditch match*. You'd think a few Hogwarts students might have > noticed then. I would guess that most everyone was watching the match, and not paying attention to the ersatz dementors. Most of those watching the match would be paying attention to the chasers and the quaffle, too, so they would not necessarily see Harry use his wand. Additionally, some students who may have seen the patronus might not have known what it was. From carishka2002 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 00:39:55 2003 From: carishka2002 at yahoo.com (Karina Aleksandrova) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:39:55 -0000 Subject: What if (was Re: Runes(?) on cover art (for Random)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75994 Erica wrote: > > In looking further into the runes it appears the Eiwaz, the rune of > defense, as mention by Hermione is also associated with Protection. > > > > http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/eiwaz.htm > > > > What if *thats* what Lily did for Harry. What if she involked > Harry's Protection by drawing (with her finger) the Eiwaz rune on > Harry's forehead (which sort a looks like a lightning bolt) That's very insightful. Although I would disagree that Eiwaz is like a lightning bolt, unless you look at it sideways. IMHO if Harry's scar is a rune it is more likely Sowilu - rune of victory, and spiritual energies. http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/sowilu.htm Mtwelovett wrote: > Wasn't Eiwaz one of the Runes one of them got confused with something > else during either their studying for OWLs or during their OWLs? or am > I thinking of something else entirely? (I don't have the book here > with me... ) if so, could this be a clue? Yes, Hermione confused Ehwaz with Eiwaz on her Ancient Runes exam. She thought Ehwaz meant defence, but it means partnership - Eiwaz means defense. It could be a clue, but probably isn't. These two runes can be easily confused - the difference is only one letter. ~Carina From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 8 00:49:48 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Sue Nissen Handel) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:49:48 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic)VERY LONGISH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > > > > bibphile: wrote > >> (weren't their parents muggles like Hermione's? > > My question here is what are we basing the muggle theory on? > The only thing close is in the first > book when Petunia is talking and says, quoting her parents "Isn't it > grand we have a witch in the family". Doesn't say she is the only one, > just that they have one. Since there are no grandparents as yet and > no other family how are we basing the fact that they are muggles? > And has anyone seen anything to indicate that James was a > pureblood ? I wondered about his side of the family. So hope this > one goes through. thanks > sherry Petunia also says she was the only one to see her as a "freak". But I do think this is where some of her jealousy comes from. I think Petunia knows too much about the wizarding world for their parents not to be witch and or wizard. Maybe only one of them was magical? I think Petunia may be a squib. I also wonder about the obsession Vernon has about the wizard world. Why is he so very against them. Could he be in league with the Dark Lord? Maybe that is why when he tries to strangle Harry he feels like a shock of electricity runs thru him? Just my thoughts. Susan From daluben4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 01:04:50 2003 From: daluben4 at yahoo.com (daluben4) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:04:50 -0000 Subject: Why it had to be Sirius In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75996 > I think the reason it had to be Sirius in particular is probably the > emotional impact it had on Harry. Also, and I know this sounds > horrible, but it's possible that from a purely plot standpoint he was > the most disposable character whose death would still make an > emotional impact. We don't know what she has planned for Ron, Hermione > or any of the other characters who are really close to Harry, but > maybe they're still too important to kill off just yet in terms of > further plot developments. > > ~dream I can't quote a specific interview, but I seem to recall that JKR has said that death is a (the?) central theme in the books. She needed to force Harry to deal with death in a very personal way. Even the death of his parents may not have had the same emotional impact as the death of Sirius because Harry was really too young to know his parents when they died. And, I agree that Ron and Hermione were just not likely candidates at this point. (In fact, I kind of expect them to survive the series, though it's just a hunch.) From darkkitten at mac.com Fri Aug 8 01:18:24 2003 From: darkkitten at mac.com (darkkitten2) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:18:24 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75997 jwpgh wrote: > Calling the relationship delusional or even illusional (is that a > word?) seems harsh to me. Part of the problem here was that these > 2 people just didn't know each other very well, and when you are in > the early stages of a relationship it's easy to make incorrect > assumptions. The person you're getting to know reminds you of > someone else, or they look like someone else, or you misinterpret > their actions...any or all of these can happen. *nod* Sirius and Harry were tied together by James and Lily's choices, not their own. They're really _family_, with the involuntary connection that family implies. Both did choose to try to make it work; Sirius could have relinquished any claim on Harry and Harry could have tried to avoid Sirius. Instead, Sirius does everything he can to fulfill his responsibility to Harry and Harry makes it clear that he is immediately willing to accept Sirius, dubious history and all. For me this explains why Harry seems to have such a sudden affection for Sirius. It's not that he knows much about Sirius at all, it's that he trusts his parents, accepts Sirius as part of his family (something he is desperately hungry for) and does his best to go from there, including risking his life for Sirius after knowing him for an hour. This would tell you more about Harry than it does about Sirius- except that Sirius has done basically the same thing. > Yes, they needed each other and that need drove some of their > behavior toward each other. But they would have come to know each > other better over time and with closer and more regular contact. I > don't see any evidence that Sirius really ever confused Harry with > James. James would be his point of reference for Harry, of course- > all of us who know our friends' children look for the adult in the > child. But Sirius said what he said in OoP out of frustration, not > confusion. Molly was just being spiteful. Sirius said what he did out of frustration with his own situation. Harry refuses Sirius's plan out of protectiveness for Sirius; this is what makes Sirius angry. He feels powerless, and in his anger he fires off a comment that he *knows* will get to Harry. Which was uncalled for, unfair- and very human. Also Sirius has little experience being a grownup; he reverts to thinking in pranks and escapades at times. He wants a James, no question. But there is no genuine confusion, I don't think. Molly is afraid for Harry and a little jealous. She acts as a parent figure and protector for Harry (in the Boggart scene she clearly counts him as one of her loved ones right along with her children) and Sirius is now competing for that position. IMO she doesn't think much of Sirius's ability to keep Harry safe, and well, given Sirius's history and wanted fugitive status she has some reason to worry. She's spiteful on purpose, but she feels this is justified if it discourages Sirius. > As for the darker direction of the next books... more on that next post... *evil grin* darkkitten From octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 01:19:03 2003 From: octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com (belsum) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:19:03 -0000 Subject: Myrtle an Evans? (was: Is Lily Voldemort daughter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75998 > Marci again: > > The description given of the family that appeared in the Mirror of > Erised was definitely that of a Potter clan. Harry saw glasses, dark > messy hair, knobbly knees, etc. My theory is that Myrtle is an > Evans, and in his heart of hearts, I doubt Harry would desire to meet > any of his aunt's relatives. belsum: While I have no doubt that Harry wouldn't consciously want to meet any of his aunt's family, I must respectfully disagree that the mirror folks are all Potters. He clearly see other eyes like his and we've been told countless times that he looks just like his father but with his mother's eyes. I'm not completely sold on the Moaning Myrtle Evans theory simply because of the timeline. Someone (sorry I don't have the post to quote) postulated she may be the oldest sister but that seems a stretch. So is she Lily's aunt? Cousin? Bueller? From AllieS426 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 01:53:29 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:53:29 -0000 Subject: Auror training an epilogue to HP: very clever JKR Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 75999 I haven't seen any other threads about this particular topic yet... how clever of JKR to throw in Harry wanting to be an Auror... and Professor MacGonagall telling Harry that becoming an Auror requires 3 more years of training. Leaving herself a way to keep writing the HP series after Harry finishes Hogwarts and defeats lord thingy (which I have NO DOUBT he will). Did anyone else think that? Maybe we'll have 5 more books and not just 2. :) Also- random thought- why doesn't Harry seem to catch on that something MAJOR and usually BAD happens to him at the end of every school year? ; ) Allie From RACH911 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 03:34:40 2003 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:34:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore control of time? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76000 I've just gone back and read PoA after finishing OotP because it amazes me how Dumbledore is never caught off guard or surprised by anything. He always seems to be one step ahead and has an answer for everything (this is not a criticism, he is one of my favourite characters). But after reading PoA again, it concerns me that Hermione was given the power to go back in time with the time-turner just so that she may take some extra classes at school. This seems a huge risk and responsibility for McGonogall and Dumbledore to instore on Hermione for such a minor reason. It is because of this that I believe Dumbledore had an alterior motive in seeking permission from the Ministry for Hermione to be allowed this privelidge. I think somehow Dumbledore must have a kind of awareness of the past, present and future simultaneously. He must have known that he needed Hermione to know how to use the time-turner in order to be able to save Sirius (and Buckbeak). This would also explain how he knew to stall the executioner of Buckbeak in PoA to give Harry and Hermione time to save him. What do others think of this theory? Rachel From pat7597 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 22:52:33 2003 From: pat7597 at yahoo.com (dianna york) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 15:52:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Godric's hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030807225233.36021.qmail@web80311.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76001 Yes it was, it was in the second book....which I thought was great just like the other ones dianna --- biggladolaf wrote: > Wasn't Gryffindor's first name Godric? Maybe it was > a safe house for > Gryffindors. > > Olaf, glad and big > > > From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 23:55:56 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:55:56 -0000 Subject: Petunia (suggestion why she hates magic)VERY LONGISH In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: {{snip}} Sherry says: > My question here is what are we basing the muggle theory on? I have > read and reread the books and no where have I found the sentence that > Lily's parents were muggles. The only thing close is in the first > book when Petunia is talking and says, quoting her parents "Isn't it > grand we have a witch in the family". Doesn't say she is the only one, > just that they have one. Since there are no grandparents as yet and > no other family how are we basing the fact that they are muggles? > And has anyone seen anything to indicate that James was a > pureblood ? I wondered about his side of the family. So hope this > one goes through. thanks > sherry Me: In the OoP chapter, Snape's Worst Memory, we hear Snape call Lily a "mudblood", which would indicate that her parents are muggles, or perhaps that one of them is. Up until then, I think it was taken for granted, because of Petunia's attitude and that speech. Shirley (also trying to come up with a cool name) From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 00:36:08 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:36:08 -0000 Subject: Charms, hexes and jinxes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76003 This may be a truly stupid question, but what are the differences between charms, hexes and jinxes? I would greatly appreciate it if someone(s) could enlighten me, as I find myself wondering that every time I read about them. Thanks much - Shirley From tish9774 at grics.net Fri Aug 8 03:52:43 2003 From: tish9774 at grics.net (tish ) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 03:52:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore control of time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rach9112000" wrote: > I've just gone back and read PoA after finishing OotP because it > amazes me how Dumbledore is never caught off guard or surprised by > anything. He always seems to be one step ahead and has an answer for > everything (this is not a criticism, he is one of my favourite > characters). But after reading PoA again, it concerns me that > Hermione was given the power to go back in time with the time- turner > just so that she may take some extra classes at school. This seems a > huge risk and responsibility for McGonogall and Dumbledore to instore > on Hermione for such a minor reason. > It is because of this that I believe Dumbledore had an alterior > motive in seeking permission from the Ministry for Hermione to be > allowed this privelidge. I think somehow Dumbledore must have a kind > of awareness of the past, present and future simultaneously. He must > have known that he needed Hermione to know how to use the time- turner > in order to be able to save Sirius (and Buckbeak). This would also > explain how he knew to stall the executioner of Buckbeak in PoA to > give Harry and Hermione time to save him. > What do others think of this theory? > Rachel Tish types: I also think Dumbledore has some other-worldly grasp on time and events. I used to wonder how he knows everything that goes on in the school (like in SS how he knew Neveill stood up to R/H/H) then a stupid off handed remark (not ulike the room of chamber pots) made by Charlie Weasley about Dumbledore not wanting to be taken off the chocolate frog cards. I know it was meant to be sarcastic, but you would have to think that he could see out of the pictures (like the portraits in his office) so he can see what goes on with students. Just my crazy thought! Tish From catlady at wicca.net Fri Aug 8 04:16:58 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:16:58 -0000 Subject: Fawcett (was: Out of term activity at Hogwarts/Fawcett=Hufflepuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > > Isn't Fawcett the Hufflepuff girl that Snape catches behind one of > the rose bushes in GOF? I'm sure she is, and her boyfriend is a > Ravenclaw called Stebbins. My copy of GoF is one of the ones that Amazon UK mailed out on magic day in July 2000. In it, there appeared to be two Fawcett girls. One in Ravenclaw: As someone has already quoted on this list, when Fred and George tried to cross the Age Line and got very long white beards, Dumbledore sent them to Madam Pomfrey, 'who is already tending to' Miss Fawcett of Ravenclaw and Mr Summers of Hufflepuff, 'but their beards are not so fine as yours.' The other in Hufflepuff: when Snape blasts the rose bush apart, he takes 'ten points from Hufflepuff, Fawcett' when the silhouette of a girl runs out and 'ten points from Ravenclaw, Stebbins; when the silhouette of a boy runs out. But I am told that more recent printings of GoF say "Ravenclaw, Fawcett" and "Hufflepuff, Stebbins", so there appears to be only one Fawcett. From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 04:17:28 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:17:28 -0000 Subject: Snape's (un)fair grading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76006 bibphile at y... writes: I was under the impression (though I admit that I don't know why) that only O.W.L.s counted fifth year. Basically if you pass the test you pass even if you have straight zeros and if you fail the test you fail even if you have straight 100's. sherry: Ok I have a different opionion of this. When Fred and George took there OWL's they still passed 5th grade. There mom was complaining about how few they got. I think what the OWL's do is give options as to what classes you get to take 6th year. Remember Magonagel talking to Harry about how you need really high marks to become an AUROR. So not sure if that helps or not but I don't think you fail your year if you fail your OWL's. You just can't get into some higher classes. Sort of like an OWL would be a prerequisite class for college here in the states. > But if you fail all your OWLS, then you can't get into any of the classes sixth year. I think they all demand at least an "A" for you to get in. It's just that some demand higher. If you don't get any OWLS, you can't take any more classes. You've failed. Fred and George each got three OWLs. That mean they can each take three classes sixth yeaer (assuming each OWL was in a different subject). At least that's what I think. You can continue with potions if you get an "O" on the OWLs no matter what you make in class. You can continue with Transfiguaration if you get an "E." But I doubt any class will let you continue if you don't get at least an "A". This is all theory. I'm basing it on what I've seen in the books and what I've heard about the O-levels that used to be given in the UK. I could be wrong. It's just that when they talked about what Harry needed to take higher classes, nobody mentioned class-room grades. bibphile From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 04:40:34 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:40:34 -0000 Subject: Weasley ages (was:Re: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > I can't find the reference, but I think I recall Ron mentioning that Ginny has wanted to attend Hogwarts since Charlie got his letter. That would imply that Charlie is less than 10 years older than Ginny - but at least 7 years older than Ron , meaning he was born between 1971 and 1973. If someone else finds that reference, let me know. There's also a reference in GoF from either Charlie or Bill stating when they had last been at Hogwarts - don't know if that was as a student, or to visit a younger sibling. > > Melinda There's contridictory evidence as to Bill and Charlie's ages. In CoS, Ginny said that she'd wanted to go to Hogwarts since Bill went (I think it was Bill and not Charlie.) However in PoA, it said that Gryffindore hadn't won the quidditch cup since Chalie left and that they hadn't won in seven years. It seemed to imply that Charlie's seventh year was the last ime they won. That would put Charlie seven years older than Percy so bill would be at least 13 years older than Ginny. I tend to go with the older age. They made so much fuss over how good Charlie was and how they haven't won since he left that I seriously doubt the last time they won since he was in his fouth year. I assume Ginny was just talking about one time Bill left for Hogwarts and not the first time (just the first time she remembers). In GoF, Bill said he hadn't been to Hogwarts in five years. I dout that was when he finished Hogwarts though. It would mean that Charlie's last year was the year before Harry started. That would mean Gryffindor hadn't won the cup since Charlie's second year which doesn't make much sense. I generally go with Charlie being 11 years older than Harry and Bill being 12-13 years older. You can make an arguement for Charlie being 1-2 years younger, but not much more. We haveno idea how old Bill is except that he is older than Charlie. I apoligize if I've made any errors. bibphile From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 04:43:15 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:43:15 -0000 Subject: Voldemort talks about a power to vanquish him in GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76008 Now that we know about the prophecy does Voldemort's address to the Death Eaters at the end of GoF make sense. Specifically (Ch 33 The Deathe Eaters, pg 562)when Voldemort asks why they never came to his aid. "...And I answer myself, perhaps they belived a still-greater power could exist, one that could vanquish even Lord Voldemort...perhaps they now pay alligiance to another...perhaps that champion of commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore..." This is quite confusing because if Voldemort heard the first part of the prophecy he knew that the "one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" would be born at the end of July etc etc. Then, at the end of the chapter, Voldemort says (pg 571) "You see, I think how foolish it was to suppose that this boy could ever have been stronger than me..." So he clearly wants to prove that he is stronger than Harry but is this just because of the attack when he was a baby or because of the prophecy? What this all means I have no idea but I would really like to know - why is Dumbledore the only one he ever feared? And what is Dumbledore's relationship to Harry - because there must be one. LPD From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 04:57:37 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:57:37 -0000 Subject: Weasley ages (was:Re: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76009 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" > wrote: > > I can't find the reference, but I think I recall Ron mentioning > that Ginny has wanted to attend Hogwarts since Charlie got his > letter. That would imply that Charlie is less than 10 years older > than Ginny - but at least 7 years older than Ron , meaning he was > born between 1971 and 1973. If someone else finds that reference, > let me know. There's also a reference in GoF from either Charlie or > Bill stating when they had last been at Hogwarts - don't know if > that was as a student, or to visit a younger sibling. > > > > Melinda > > There's contridictory evidence as to Bill and Charlie's ages. In > CoS, Ginny said that she'd wanted to go to Hogwarts since Bill went > (I think it was Bill and not Charlie.) > > However in PoA, it said that Gryffindore hadn't won the quidditch > cup since Chalie left and that they hadn't won in seven years. It > seemed to imply that Charlie's seventh year was the last ime they > won. That would put Charlie seven years older than Percy so bill > would be at least 13 years older than Ginny. > > I tend to go with the older age. They made so much fuss over how > good Charlie was and how they haven't won since he left that I > seriously doubt the last time they won since he was in his fouth > year. I assume Ginny was just talking about one time Bill left for > Hogwarts and not the first time (just the first time she remembers). > > In GoF, Bill said he hadn't been to Hogwarts in five years. I dout > that was when he finished Hogwarts though. It would mean that > Charlie's last year was the year before Harry started. That would > mean Gryffindor hadn't won the cup since Charlie's second year which > doesn't make much sense. > > I generally go with Charlie being 11 years older than Harry and Bill > being 12-13 years older. You can make an arguement for Charlie > being 1-2 years younger, but not much more. We haveno idea how old > Bill is except that he is older than Charlie. > > I apoligize if I've made any errors. > > bibphile Since I just spent the last half hour looking for this, I thought I'd just go ahead and throw in a page number for the reference about Ginny and Bill. In CoS, when she wakes up after Harry destroys the diary she says, "I've looked forward to coming to Hogwarts ever since B-Bill came" (p 323, US Paperback). This could refer to any time that Bill was at Hogwarts, I believe. KathyK From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 05:11:33 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:11:33 -0000 Subject: Why are the Weasley's blood traitors? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76010 Does anyone know why the Black's, Malfoy's etc would consider the Weasley's blood traitors when they don't seem to have committed the biggest crime - marriage to muggles? OoP Ch 6 pg 105, Sirius tells Harry there is no point looking for the Weasley's on the family tapestry because " ...if ever a family was a bunch of blood traitors its the Weasley's..." In CoS (Ch18 pg 247)Dumbldore says the Weasley's are one of "our most prominent and pure-blood families". They obviously haven't intermarried so are they blood traitors just because Arthur has a soft spot for Muggles? Surely not. In CoS (Ch 4 pg 51) Lucius Malfoy says to Arthur "...Dear me, what's the use of being a disgrace to the name of wizard if they don't even pay you well for it?.." and upon seeing Mr and Mrs Granger "...The company you keep, Weasley...and I thought your family could sink no lower-.." This begs the question - what other company do the Weasley's keep and what have they done to previously sink so low in Malfoy's eyes? It can't just be Arthur's job - there must be more to it than that? Any ideas? LPD From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 05:19:47 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:19:47 -0000 Subject: Why are the Weasley's blood traitors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76011 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > Does anyone know why the Black's, Malfoy's etc would consider the > Weasley's blood traitors when they don't seem to have committed the > biggest crime - marriage to muggles? Because they've commited lots of smaller ones. Arthur is facinated by muggles. They accepted muggle-born Hermione into their home and pratically adopted half-blood Harry. Basically, they don't have any prejudices against muggle-borns. They don't believe in any way theat pure-bloods are superior. That's enough. At least, that's what I assumed. bibphile From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 05:24:09 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:24:09 -0000 Subject: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > I can't find the reference, but I think I recall Ron mentioning > that Ginny has wanted to attend Hogwarts since Charlie got his > letter. Actually, she said Bill, and many people feel that that is a glaring Flint, since all other evidence points to her not even being born when Bill first went to Hogwarts. JKR probably should have corrected this long ago to say "Percy," who went to Hogwarts when Ginny was six years old, an age at which a child might be aware enough of what was going on around her to envy an older sibling for getting to go off to magic school. As the youngest of five, with a sister fifteen years older than me, I think about these things, but I think JKR and her sister are very close in age and she's not used to taking into account the fact that in very large families, the eldest and youngest siblings may actually not know each other very well. The youngest may have very little cause to know first-hand about the early life of the oldest child in the family. And none of the other children would have been in a position to envy either Bill or Charlie going off to school for the first time either, since Percy wouldn't have been able to be aware of this sort of thing much before the age of four (1980) and Bill probably would have started in 1975 or 1976, and Charlie in around 1977 or 1978. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 05:31:03 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:31:03 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > First, the OWL Potions exam. Harry found the written exam 'difficult'. > In the practical exam, Harry thought is was not 'as dreadful as he had > expected' but that would still imply dreadful, just not as dreadful, > and that he was 'more relaxed'. Then in Harry's own words, "Harry > corked his sample flask feeeling that he might not have achieved a > good grade but that he had, with luck, avoided a fail." > In most potions classes, we learn how badly Harry did by the color and > general appearance of his potion. So Harry would have some idea > whether the potion looked exactly as it should have looked. Based on > his own words he doesn't seem that confident. Except we the readers this time don't have direct evidence(such as the color and description of the brewed potion) to see how well Harry did on the potions practical and instead are relying on Harry's feelings and perceptions which are notoriously pessimistic in regard to exams like in SS/PS where he was amazed that he passed all the exams with good marks and in PoA where he thought that he failed the potions exam and when he did pass he thought that Dumbledore had pulled some strings with Snape instead of thinking that he passed based on his own merits. > Certainly, we all think he did better than he gives himself credit > for. Harry thinks, with luck, he passed ('Acceptable'), we think he > exceeded that, which would logically be 'Exceeded Expectation'. But to > assume that a student, Harry, has gone from years of history as > marginal and just bearly passing, all the way to 'Outstanding' is > asking a little too much. GEO: think you have to agree that Harry being marginal at Potions in Snape's class probably means that he is around E or A for the ministry levels considering that Harry is a gryffindor who are usually treated harshly by Snape and that he is also James's son and thus he is singled out by Snape for mockery. > No doubt he has done well, but to think he > has moved to top of the class, top grades is hoping for something that > certainly isn't supported by the books. GEO: Why not? When Snape ignored him in Ootp he was able to brew the invigoration draught quite easily. If anything BookV has shown that he is actually fairly good at potions when Snape is isn't picking on him or in his presence. And remember many of the "top" students in Snape's potions class didn't earn their positions, but got them because they were Slytherins and thus favored by Snape. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 05:36:49 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:36:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort talks about a power to vanquish him in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > Now that we know about the prophecy does Voldemort's address to the > Death Eaters at the end of GoF make sense. > > Specifically (Ch 33 The Deathe Eaters, pg 562)when Voldemort asks why > they never came to his aid. > > "...And I answer myself, perhaps they belived a still-greater power > could exist, one that could vanquish even Lord Voldemort...perhaps > they now pay alligiance to another...perhaps that champion of > commoners, of Mudbloods and Muggles, Albus Dumbledore..." > > This is quite confusing because if Voldemort heard the first part of > the prophecy he knew that the "one with the power to vanquish the > Dark Lord" would be born at the end of July etc etc. > KathyK: Do all the Death Eaters know of the prophecy? I thought Voldemort was just using Dumbledore as a well known figure that stood against what he believed to show his DE's that he knew they'd been associating with the likes of Dumbledore while he was gone. > Then, at the end of the chapter, Voldemort says (pg 571) > > "You see, I think how foolish it was to suppose that this boy could > ever have been stronger than me..." > > So he clearly wants to prove that he is stronger than Harry but is > this just because of the attack when he was a baby or because of the > prophecy? > KathyK: Probably both. He needs to prove to himself that he can destroy Harry so the prophecy as he knows it cannot be fulfilled. He wants to show his followers that he is stronger than baby Harry and that he can kill teenage Harry with ease. > What this all means I have no idea but I would really like to know - > why is Dumbledore the only one he ever feared? And what is > Dumbledore's relationship to Harry - because there must be one. > > LPD I didn't understand, either, why Dumbledore is considered the only one Voldemort ever feared. I think, though, that it has to to with the amount of knowldege Dumbledore has coupled with the fact that Dumbledore is powerful enough in his own right that he has not much to fear from Voldemort. Dumbledore knows the entire prophecy which gives him power over Voldemort, which definitely is cause for Voldemort to fear him. Dumbledore has the ability with this knowledge to manipulate events so that "the one with the power to vanquish the dark lord" will actually be able to do so. Additionally, Dumbledore knows Voldemort as Tom Riddle as well. Perhaps something in what he knows about Riddle makes Voldemort fear him as well. There's that idea that Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald is somehow connected to Riddle. Perhaps something connected to those events gives LV cause to fear Dumbledore. KathyK: From EnsTren at aol.com Fri Aug 8 05:38:36 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 01:38:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? Message-ID: <169.225d06ea.2c64915c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76015 In a message dated 8/7/2003 7:43:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com writes: > For example.. OoP 16/342 (US) it sounds like a big secret that > Harry can cast a Patronus. > > But, in PoA 13/262, Harry casts a Patronus *in the middle of a > Quidditch match*. You'd think a few Hogwarts students might have > noticed then. > > "Jonathan" I have a theroy. I think a patronus with a form is diffrent than a coporal patronus. That's number one. I think a Corporal patronus is one that can touch things, seems solid or near enough, while one with a form can only hurt dementors and lethifolds. Further more I watched a few clips from this japanese show. They play some american song and then the japanese people, who don't know english, have to do a skit about what they think the song is about. Needless to say there were some weird things. I heard the "bear nessecities" (I think that's the song) and the Japanese people heard something about pissing or urinals judging by the skit they put on. Now, once the guy who was showing us this told us what the japanese people thought they heard I was able to hear that as well. The same principal, whatever it is called, I think, applies to the patronus on the quidditch feild. To someone who knows it's supposed to be a stag they see the stag clearly at that, to most other people they miss it, espcially considering how fast it was moving. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 05:50:26 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:50:26 -0000 Subject: Why are the Weasley's blood traitors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > Does anyone know why the Black's, Malfoy's etc would consider the > Weasley's blood traitors when they don't seem to have committed the > biggest crime - marriage to muggles? But they have committed other high crimes such as speaking for the muggle born and trying to get an act passed to protect muggles from wizards. > > They obviously haven't intermarried so are they blood traitors just > because Arthur has a soft spot for Muggles? Surely not. > We are talking about people such as Sirius's mother who wiped his uncle from the tree just because he left Sirius some gold and Bellatrix who was so fanatical that she wanted to attack Harry because he dared speak Voldemort's name with his half-blood tongue. I don't think they are exactly the best examples of rationality in the world. > > This begs the question - what other company do the Weasley's keep and > what have they done to previously sink so low in Malfoy's eyes? Probably people like Moody, Dumbledore and other crazy blokes and muggle lovers. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 05:56:11 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:56:11 -0000 Subject: Auror training an epilogue to HP: very clever JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" wrote: > Did anyone else think that? Maybe we'll > have 5 more books and not just 2. :) I hope not. Once Book 7 and her HP Encyclopedia comes out then the fans can have free reign over the HP universe with fan fiction and other wonderful things. > Also- random thought- why doesn't Harry seem to catch on that > something MAJOR and usually BAD happens to him at the end of every > school year? ; ) > Because he is Harry Potter. Book II-He is lured there by Voldemort/Tom Riddle who wants to know how he was defeated. Book III- He is the reason that Sirius escapes which is to protect him from wormtail. Book IV- He is drawn into the tournament so that Voldy can get a hold of him for his resurrection brew. Book V- He has the visions and goes to the Ministry so that Voldy can get the prophecy. From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 06:08:23 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 06:08:23 -0000 Subject: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > I do agree that they'll be more of a focus on Neville, that he will > become even more confident and heroic in the future books - but > I don't think he's a spotlight kinda guy. I think that was the whole point of Neville that courage and heroes come from the most unlikely of places. Neville is chubby and clumsy and is usually not a heroic person, but his actions say otherwise and the fact that he loses his father's wand in battle is very Luke Skywalker/King Arthur like in action points to an increased part in future books From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 06:22:42 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 06:22:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's age? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76019 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kfc4588" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" > > wrote: > > > I'm confused on Harry's age (in real life); I thought the first > > book > > > came out in 1991... > > > > > > "miss_america_03" Geoff: > > Nope. First published in Great Britain 1997. > Casey: > thats when it was first published but harry's first year is 1991 > (because the 2nd book had to be in 1992 as it was nicks 500th > deathday and he died in 1492) so it was published in 1997 but the > story began in 1991 :) > -casey Geoff: Agreed. It's accepted that Harry was born in 1980. I was confirming the answer to the question about the book. We have been "celebrating" H's 23rd birthday on the group recently. From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 00:15:46 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 00:15:46 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry / Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: {{large snip}} > > Garrett: > Lupin said that james was a stag, and i think the animal you turn > into is aslo your patronus > Garrett now me (Shirley): No offense, but do you have a cite for that? I thought it was really cool that Harry's patronus turned out to be a stag, when his dad's animagus form was also a stag, but I don't recall reading anywhere that one's patronus is an indicator of one's animagus form (if any), or vice versa. Thanks in advance - Shirley From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 06:31:05 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 06:31:05 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "janna" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > Having followed this thread for a long period, can I ask a silly > question? > > Where does the idea of having a betrayal come from in the first > place? Also, I have been trying to find when the thread originated; > anyone know when... > > Geoff > > ~janna~ > I could be wrong (it happens a lot) but I think the most recent > round of spy/betrayal/mole in the order threads seem to have started > at post 73564. > > Geoff: Thanks. I tried the "upthread" which dumped me in the middle of nowhere; the thread title had changed along the way. From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 06:34:18 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:34:18 -0700 Subject: FILK: "Beyond the Veil" Message-ID: <410-2200385863418847@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76022 "Beyond the Veil" An OoP "Hogwarts Story" filk to "Somewhere," from "West Side Story." I had intended to write (and post) these in the order in which they appear in the musical, but I've decided to scrap that idea and instead post them as they come to me. So you're getting this one now (which comes rather near the end, as you might guess). (Scene: HARRY and LUNA are talking in a hallway near the Fat Lady's corridor, not long before catching the Hogwarts' Express home at the end of term). HARRY (spoken*): Have you . . . I mean, who . . . has anyone you've known ever died? LUNA (spoken): Yes. My mother. One of her spells went rather badly wrong one day. I was nine. HARRY: I'm sorry. LUNA: I still feel very sad about it sometimes. But it's not as though I'll never see her again, is it? HARRY: Er - isn't it? LUNA: Oh come on. You heard them, just behind the veil, didn't you? HARRY: You mean . . . LUNA (sung): They will wait for us. Our loved ones wait for us. Those whose voices were whispering, Wait for us Somewhere. HARRY (sung): Just beyond the veil, They wait beyond the veil. Sirius and my mum and dad. We've no need to be sad. Somewhere! LUNA: Someday! All this world's wrongs will be righted. HARRY: With them we'll be reunited, Someday. LUNA & HARRY: Just beyond the veil, They wait beyond the veil. Those we love are not really gone; We will join them when this life's done. Someday! Beyond the Veil! :-) Wendy *Dialogue taken from OoP, Chapter 38, page 863, US hardcover. I made some minor changes, but it's pretty much what JKR wrote. Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 06:39:34 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 06:39:34 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > > > Dan: > > > > Well, it would seem to me we need to know a little more about > how > > > > Dumbledore "defeated" Grindelwald. If that is what he is most > > > famous > > > > for (thanks to the Quibbler?), if that is why Voldemort fears > > him, > > > > then Harry's next question should be, and one of his previous > > > > questions should have been, "what did you do?" > > > > > > Me: > > > How does the Grindlewald defeat fit in with the Quibbler? The > > > reference I recall to this defeat was from the Chocolate Frog > card > > > which Harry had on the train in PS. > > > > > > Geoff > > > > That Dumbledore is famous for his defeat of the dark wizard > > Grindelwald is not because he's on a chocolate frog card, rather, > > he's on a chocolate frog card because he's famous, and he became > > famous by his deeds vs Grindelwald becoming known to everyone. In > the > > books, this being known to everyone has involved wizard papers. My > > point, however, was clearly that Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald > > might mean something in regards to Voldemort and Tom Riddle. How > did > > he defeat Grindelwald? Was it connected in some way to Riddle, > etc... > > > > I frankly don't understand what you are questioning. I said his > fame > > might have been spread through the quibbler, as a newspaper. It's > not > > a theory. > > > > dan > > KathyK (butting in): > I know I'm not involved at all in the above, but as I've nothing > better to do, I thought I'd just give my take of this small > misunderstanding above. Dan was, as he states above, wondering if > maybe Dumbledore's defeat of Grindelwald was spread through the > Quibbler. Geoff interpreted Dan's phrase "(thanks to the Quibbler?)" > as getting information about the defeat of Grindelwald from the > Quibbler. Thus his reply that it appeared on the chocolate frog > card. I don't think he was saying that Dumbledore got famous because > of his mention on the card. > > In relation to this thread, I agree that Grindelwald (and his defeat > at the hands of Dumbledore) have something to do with Voldemort. I > have no ideas on how they're related, though, so I'll stop there. Geoff: That was indeed my point. I don't recall the Quibbler mentioning Grindelwald - mark you, I might have overlooked the item although I seem to recall that the only place the magazine is quoted verbatim at any length is on the train to Hogwarts. Dan's reference to the magazine in this instance rather threw my thinking off course.My comment was meant to be the same, ie that DD is on the card because he's famous. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 06:39:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 06:39:59 -0000 Subject: Charms, hexes and jinxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > This may be a truly stupid question, but what are the differences > between charms, hexes and jinxes? I would greatly appreciate it if > someone(s) could enlighten me, as I find myself wondering that every > time I read about them. > > Thanks much - Shirley bboy_mn: Everything you could ever want to know can be found here... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71220 Just remember that it's mostly my opinion. If you have more question after reading this, please post them.. bboy_mn From AllieS426 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 01:07:12 2003 From: AllieS426 at aol.com (allies426) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 01:07:12 -0000 Subject: Return of the Longbottoms? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melissa Cardenas" wrote: > > I agree! I could see Neville's Mumbly - Bumbly Plant, the gift he > got from Gram? in Book 5 (I can remember the name of it) as some kind > of special part of a memory-restoration potion for his folks. > > Plus, I still think there's a clue to all those bubble gum wrappers- > like there's a secret message from his mom in them that he hasn't > figured out yet. But that's just me! :) > **MC** Yes, I wondered why such a big deal was made about that plant (it must be mentioned 15 times in the book, and it was the password for a LONG time) and then nothing came of it! From horza.geo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 04:04:03 2003 From: horza.geo at yahoo.com (Walter) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:04:03 -0000 Subject: Charms, hexes and jinxes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76026 Shirley wrote: > This may be a truly stupid question, but what are the differences > between charms, hexes and jinxes? I would greatly appreciate it if > someone(s) could enlighten me, as I find myself wondering that every > time I read about them. I am pretty sure that they're different forms of spells but depending on the nature of the spell, they carry different names. For example, Charms affect inanimate objects suchas brooms and galleons. Hexes affect skin, causing disfigurments, while jinxes affect the body. Rictusempra Vs. Tarantallegra. Actually, come to think of it, they don't sound really different. I suppose there is a definable difference one could wangle, but I'm steeped in rereading Chamber of Secrets at the moment, taking notes. From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 8 04:06:49 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 04:06:49 -0000 Subject: Petunia and Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76027 I haven't been able to find a post regarding this. If there have been, please forgive me. Will Petunia realize that Harry saved her son's soul and start treating him like her nephew thereby talking about their family or will she feel Harry put Dudley in danger and be even more hateful? I kind of feel that the best way for her to come out with the family history would be for her to be grateful to Harry. I have been going in circles in my mind with this. Any thoughts? Susan From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 06:51:07 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:51:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in Snape's DADA? Message-ID: <410-220038586517677@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76028 GEO wrote: "And remember many of the "top" students in Snape's potions class didn't earn their positions, but got them because they were Slytherins and thus favored by Snape. " Now me (Wendy): While on the whole, I agree with your post, I have a bit of a quibble with this statement. Well, it' a rather big quibble, actually. Will you please provide us with some canon to back up this claim? I know there's a lot of talk about how much Snape favours the Slytherins, but I have yet to see actual evidence of this in canon with one tiny exception - during the first potions class in PS/SS, Harry notes that Snape goes around criticising everyone except Draco, whom Snape seems to like. (PS, page 103, UK hardcover). I cannot think of another instance in canon where Snape favours anyone in Slytherin House. Yes, we see him taking points away from Gryffindor, but that's not the same thing. If anything, we have canon which shows that the top student in Harry's class is Hermione, not a Slytherin at all. (CoS, page 44, UK hardcover, when Lucius criticises Draco for being beaten out by Hermione in *every* exam). I think Snape has a lot of issues, and can be cruel and petty when it comes to Harry and his friends. And I think he does a nice job of acting like he favours the Slytherins. (The scene in OoP where he gets Goyle to stop choking Neville is priceless - or was it Crabbe? Can't find the citation just now). But until I see some canon showing that he really *does* favour the Slytherins (by awarding gratuitous house points, or by grading unfairly in their favour), I refuse to believe that he actually *is* favouring them. I think this is one area in which he's not getting the credit he deserves for being - dare I say it? - fair. :-) Wendy From esaulgd at cantv.net Fri Aug 8 05:16:48 2003 From: esaulgd at cantv.net (Enrique Sal Gonzlez) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 01:16:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? References: Message-ID: <00a801c35d6c$45c315d0$a2c654c8@SAUL> No: HPFGUIDX 76029 From: "Jonathan" > For example.. OoP 16/342 (US) it sounds like a big secret that > Harry can cast a Patronus. > > But, in PoA 13/262, Harry casts a Patronus *in the middle of a > Quidditch match*. You'd think a few Hogwarts students might have > noticed then. I don't think it's a secret. Even ministry examinators that had never been to Hogwarts knew about it. In OotP, people don't seem to be surprised, more like they are amazed of Harry's ability, since casting a Patronus is very advanced magic, probably part of the NEWT test. We have to remember that Lupin probably thought it was possible for 13-years-old Harry to cast a Patronus because he among all of people knows best how outrageous were his parents as wizards. Lupin probably wouldn't have even tried if it had been any other third grader. -- Nintendo Proud Alumni of ~ Ravenclaw ~ (a.k.a. Gryffindors' Dating Service) From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 06:56:04 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 06:56:04 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? In-Reply-To: <00a801c35d6c$45c315d0$a2c654c8@SAUL> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Enrique Sa?l Gonz?lez wrote: > From: "Jonathan" > > > For example.. OoP 16/342 (US) it sounds like a big secret that > > Harry can cast a Patronus. > > > > But, in PoA 13/262, Harry casts a Patronus *in the middle of a > > Quidditch match*. You'd think a few Hogwarts students might have > > noticed then. > > > > I don't think it's a secret. Even ministry examinators that had never been > to Hogwarts knew about it. In OotP, people don't seem to be surprised, more > like they are amazed of Harry's ability, since casting a Patronus is very > advanced magic, probably part of the NEWT test. > > We have to remember that Lupin probably thought it was possible for > 13-years-old Harry to cast a Patronus because he among all of people knows > best how outrageous were his parents as wizards. Lupin probably wouldn't > have even tried if it had been any other third grader. > > -- Nintendo > Proud Alumni of > ~ Ravenclaw ~ (a.k.a. Gryffindors' Dating Service) Do you /really/ mean outrageous? Or perhaps extraordinary might be a better description.... From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 8 06:58:56 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2003 23:58:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Petunia and Harry Message-ID: <410-2200385865856742@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76031 Susan wrote: "I haven't been able to find a post regarding this. If there have been, please forgive me. Will Petunia realize that Harry saved her son's soul and start treating him like her nephew thereby talking about their family or will she feel Harry put Dudley in danger and be even more hateful? I kind of feel that the best way for her to come out with the family history would be for her to be grateful to Harry. I have been going in circles in my mind with this. Any thoughts?" Now me (Wendy): That's a good question. I do think the dynamic in that household will have changed dramatically when next we see it, and it's fun to speculate about just how it might turn out. I'm not sure that I see Petunia developing a soft spot for Harry. What I *do* hope to see is a change for the better in Harry's relationship with Dudley. I am hoping that this experience they shared with the Dementors is going to give them enough of a "common ground" that they can start to talk about things in a real way, and perhaps come to respect one another, or *maybe* even be friends to some degree. I can picture Dudley sneaking in to Harry's room sometime and asking him questions: "Just what *were* those things?" which could lead to, "So, what's it really like, being a . . . well, you know." That sort of thing. I don't think I see Petunia and Vernon condoning this - I would be surprised if it suddenly becomes acceptable to say the "M" word in the Dursley household. But I do hope that Harry and Dudley can find a way to work things out between the two of them. And perhaps Petunia wouldn't be totally opposed to that, if it were to happen. I'm not saying this stuff *will* happen. They Dursleys may continue to be the cartoon characters they've always been (well, more like something out of Dahl, actually). So rather than being a "prediction," the scenario I outline above is just what I *hope* will happen. I guess I'm just a sucker for a "happy ending." :-) Wendy From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 05:28:10 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:28:10 -0000 Subject: Why are the Weasley's blood traitors? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76032 wrote: > Does anyone know why the Black's, Malfoy's etc would consider the > Weasley's blood traitors when they don't seem to have committed the > biggest crime - marriage to muggles? Me: (Margaret) I believe it's only used by those who are very big on the whole wizarding pride thing. They associate, and even like muggles. They give no thought to who they associate with in terms of blood purity. The only people I remember using term like these in relation to the Weasley's are the Malfoys (father and son), and Lucius Malfoy is a known Death Eater. He probably considers anyone who doesn't support LV a traitor to wizard kind. There's a coment in the forward to Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them that says there's a movement to classify muggles as beasts, I have a feeling the Malfoys are on board with that. Sirius uses it as his family would have, and we know what kind of wizards his family was. His brother was a DE. The Weasley's are good, and kind, and fair, basically eveything Lucius Malfoy is eager to trample to pave the way for Voldemort's rise to power. So I doubt it was any specific incedent, but then again, maybe Aurthur and Lucius were at school together, I'm rather fuzzy on the timeline, despite what I've read. ~Margaret, still new, and hoping people will be kind. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 07:09:42 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 07:09:42 -0000 Subject: Wizard Genetics - Or fun with Mendel's peas.. In-Reply-To: <3F31B221.2080704@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76033 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says: In the words of the great American philosopher Jeff Foxworthy, "You just might be a Hermione..." And on behalf of the rest of the hermiones of the world who fritter away our lives waiting for academic flotsam like that to come up in the conversation, a hearty Thank You! --JDR From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 06:39:16 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 06:39:16 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew the murderer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76034 Rox: Something has been bothering me since POA and that is if Peter was > > supposed was supposed to be such a weak wizard, then how did he > blast > > half the street away and kill all those people? I don't see how > this > > could have happened. I don't have the books with me because I am at > > work. Also, he just cuts his finger off, blasts the street apart > and > > then tranforms into a rat and runs away. He was so squimish about > > cutting his hand off that I think Sirius would have realized what > he > > was going to do and have been able to stop him. I think that there's a deeper meaning to Pettigrew's waffling when he ahd to cut off his hand in GoF. Harry saved his life in the Shrieking Shack. Dumbledore says at the end of PoA (don't have the book with me, don't want to go up 2 flights of stairs for it) that saving another wizard's life creates a bond, that it is magic at it's most inpenatrable. Pettigrew knows that cutting off his hand will complete the potion and return Voldemort to his former..... form. Then Voldemort will kill Harry. I think that's what gave him pause in the graveyard. (Plus the whole owy factor. A finger is not a whole hand. OWCH!) ~Margaret, still new and hoping people are kind. From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 8 07:15:28 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 07:15:28 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > > > That's not how I read that at ALL. Lupin came to the conclusion that > Sirius was the traitor AFTER the Potters' were killed. After all, > who wouldn't? I got the feeling that the only one who suspected > Sirius beforehand was Snape. That's very interesting. I have always been under the impression that Snape's stance of Sirius as the traitor would be merely along the lines of "I told you he was a bad lot!" - ie because Snape disliked Sirius anyway - but after the fact. You seem to be implying that Snape had this idea before the fact and I'd be interested to know where you got this idea from. June "It is a comfort in wretchedness To have companions in woe." Christopher Marlowe, Dr Faustus From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Aug 8 07:07:05 2003 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (John, C) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 08:07:05 +0100 Subject: Grindelwald Message-ID: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F465@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 76036 Just a thought, but you don't suppose Voldemort's grandfather could be - Marvolo Grindelwald! Might explain a few things; 1. Riddle's fear of Dumbledore 2. Where Riddle got all his information from From two4menone4you88 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 05:36:15 2003 From: two4menone4you88 at aol.com (yairadubin) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 05:36:15 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76037 How come no one refers to Harry as a half-blood? If his mother is a mudblood, as Snape's statement seems to imply, then Harry should be referred to as a half-blood. However, on the train to Hogwarts in PS/SS, Malfoy tries to warn him not to hang out with mudbloods and Weasleys - as if he's better than that. Considering the fact that Harry is exceedingly famous, it seems logical that the WW would know his lineage. *Yaira* From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 06:36:12 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 22:36:12 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Aberforth Dumbledore and the shady side of WW In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030807221010.0499e580@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 76038 It seems that a lot of people have been speculating that Aberforth D. is the bartender at the hog's head. I agree that this is a valid theory as it would explain why Harry thought the bartender looked familiar. But Sirius tells the that "[Dung] was banned from the Hog's Head twenty years ago and that barman's got a long memory." So here is my problem: Why would Mundungus have to wear a disguise if he and Aberforth are brothers in arms? The last OoP was probably start 20 some-odd years ago and dissolved about 15 years ago after HP and LV first met. Both men were in the order and had met each other (at least they are both in Moody's photograph), so why would Aberforth continue this ban? I'm starting to think it may be somebody else.... From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 07:28:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 07:28:52 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76039 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" wrote: > For example.. OoP 16/342 (US) it sounds like a big secret that > Harry can cast a Patronus. > > But, in PoA 13/262, Harry casts a Patronus *in the middle of a > Quidditch match*. You'd think a few Hogwarts students might have > noticed then. > > "Jonathan" bboy_mn: The Quidditch match- He cast the Patronus in the Quidditch match where Draco and his friend appeared on the field pretending to be Dementors. First, I don't think anyone even remotely thought that a Quidditch player would cast a spell in the middle of a game. I'm sure they were supprise to discover that Harry even had a wand with him. So the sudden appearance of a Patronus would have certainly caught everyone off guard. Harry is racing across the field closing in on the Ravenclaw end where the Snitch is hovering. He hears someone cry out, looks down and sees three Dementors (Draco indisguise), he cast the Patronus charm and 'something silver-white, something enormous' erupted from his wand. Notice that, as close as he was, even Harry didn't see the Patronus animal form. Then he stretches out his hand and catches the Snitch. End of game, team races over to hug him, they drift to the ground, where they are surrounded by Gryffindor supporters. Sounds like everyone's attention was focused on the game, Harry, and the Snitch. The scene continues on, but through out, everyone seems focused on the game. No one except Lupin mentions the Patronus. I think the reason, no one mentions the Patronus, is that it happened so fast, and was so unexpected, that most people didn't even realize what was going on. Harry must have been near the end of the field and that would limit the number of people who could see clearly, When he cast it, all anyone say was a big silver streak racing toward the ground where it instantly disappeared when it didn't find any Dementors there. I'm guessing, really just guessing, that it lasted no more than three seconds. So, I'm guessing that most people just missed it, or at least missed the details of it, others simply weren't in a postion to see well, at the Ravenclaw end of the field there were probably a few who saw what is was, but they really didn't know what it was or understand what was happening. So, most didn't see it clearly, and those who did, didn't understand it. I don't think it's fair to say that no one knows what Harry Patronus looks like, but I think it's fair to say that few understood it, and those few didn't really spread the word around. Just a few rambling thoughts. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 07:46:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 07:46:12 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76040 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" wrote: > How come no one refers to Harry as a half-blood? If his mother is a > mudblood, as Snape's statement seems to imply, then Harry should be > referred to as a half-blood. However, on the train to Hogwarts in > PS/SS, Malfoy tries to warn him not to hang out with mudbloods and > Weasleys - as if he's better than that. Considering the fact that > Harry is exceedingly famous, it seems logical that the WW would know > his lineage. > *Yaira* bboy_mn: Your 'blood' is not absolute, it is in the eye of the beholder. To the Malfoys and others obssessed with pure blood, if you have any muggles or muggle-borns anywhere in your family history, you are not a pure blood and therefore, automatically a mudblood. Techincally, a half-blood would be half muggle and half wizard (Tom Riddle), NOT half muggle-born witch and half wizard father (Harry Potter). But the terms are defined, not by formal definition, but by the prejudices of the person who is making the judgement. You will note for the paragraph above, that Harry is more of a pure blood that Tom Riddle. Both of Harry's parents are magical. Mudblood - anyone whose blood isn't ancestrally pure back to the beginning of time. (Something I see as very unlikely) Muggle-born - magical person of non-magical parents. Half-blood - Half muggle; half magical. Full-blood - both parents magical, but not necessarily pure-blood. By the most techincal definition, Harry is a Full-blood, but not a pure-blood. Again, techincal definitions mean nothing, when it is the prejudice of another person that determine who and what you are in their eyes. Just a thought. bboy_mn From qmasters at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 08:45:11 2003 From: qmasters at yahoo.com (quimbyquidditch) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:45:11 -0000 Subject: Wizard Genetics - Or fun with Mendel's peas.. In-Reply-To: <3F31B221.2080704@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > I have my own theory on Wizard genetics. Need a little simple Mendel set > up though. ;) > > Chromosomes > w = no magic > W = Magic > > ww (recessive -muggle- genes) = Muggle > Ww (Heterozygous muggle/wizard) = Wizard > WW (Double dominate Wizard gene - Presence of two W genes cancel each > other out and produce non-magical child) = Squib > Ww + Ww = 1/2 wizard children > Out of 4 kids: > 1 squib > 2 wizards > 1 'muggle' (might be passed off for being a squib though or this cross > might result in a lethal gene which might explain lower numbers of > children in pureblood families (except for the Weasleys, perhaps) > > WW + WW = Squibs only (might be considered muggles after a couple > generations of Squibs marrying Squibs though, but in fact are carriers > of the 'magic gene'. > > WW + Ww = 3/4 wizard children > Out of 4 kids: > 1 squib > 3 wizards > > WW + ww = All wizard children > > (this however might explain muggle born wizards as one partner being a > 2nd or more generation Squib, causing it to appear to skip generations.) > > Ww + ww = 1/2 Wizard children > Out of 4 kids: > 2 Wizards > 2 Muggles > > Jazmyn Now you've got me thinking. I hate it when that happens!;-) I C&Pd this from the HPLexicon. This is Ron explaining squibs to Harry, as found in CoS, chapter 9: "A Squib is someone who was born into a wizarding family but hasn't got any magic powers. Kind of the opposite of Muggle-born wizards, but Squibs are quite unusual." Of course, we don't know what Ron means by "quite unusual." One in four may be "quite unusual" by Ron's standards. Off-hand, I can think of two wizarding families with two wizard parents and more than one child. There are the Weasley's, of course--seven wizard children, and nobody in the wizarding world seems to think this is unusual. And then there are the Blacks--Sirius had a brother, who was a wizard, and at least three cousins, all witches, born to wizard parents. He doesn't mention having any squibs in the family, and while him not mentioning it doesn't mean they don't exist, I can't help but think he'd mention it. I'm too tired! quimbyquidditch From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 08:48:16 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:48:16 -0000 Subject: Auror training an epilogue to HP: very clever JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76042 > > Also- random thought- why doesn't Harry seem to catch on that > > something MAJOR and usually BAD happens to him at the end of every > > school year? ; ) > > > > couldn't agree mroe! s Someone really should tell him to keep undercover all June - up in Tralawney's tour or something! Is there going to be a HP Encyclopaedia? Excellent1 From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Aug 8 08:50:02 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 10:50:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Genetics - Or fun with Mendel's peas.. In-Reply-To: <3F31B221.2080704@pacificpuma.com> References: <3F31B221.2080704@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <200308081050.02460.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76043 jazmyn: > Okay, I know what you are going to say. If Wizards are heterozygous, > then why the whole pureblood thing? In fact, no wizard is a 'true' > pure wizard, as two W's would make it a squib. There is canon to > suggest that more squibs are born to pureblood families and > Wizard/Wizard matings. Too many generations of wizards mated to wizards > might in fact cause the race to start dying out, particularly if there > are any 'lethal' genes connected to the W gene at all. That is the problem. With the pureblood politics, they would have extinct themselves out. We can resort to the 10-15% rule, those childs are not from the father they are supposed to be, so population is healthier in genepool terms. But so, I've asked a Biologist/Biochemist friend of mine about WW, described him eye colors, hairs, families, pureblood rule, and he says he'd want more facts, but he thinks the population is inviable unless you marry muggles, the more if we are talking of hundreds of years. To maintain red, black as raven (wich is not so common even in Spain, when the population ranges from light brown to black, usually) and albins as Malfoy you need a huge pureblood population, unless you resort to muggles, Veelas and the like. Any thoughts? silmariel From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 8 10:17:05 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:17:05 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Having followed this thread for a long period, can I ask a silly > question? > > Where does the idea of having a betrayal come from in the first > place? Also, I have been trying to find when the thread originated; > anyone know when... > > Geoff I think the seeds for it were planted a long time ago. When I joined the list (before OoP), there was time to trawl back through the past posts, a very entertaining and informative pastime. Various analyses had decided that this was going to be a war of skirmishes and intelligence, rather than pitched battles; ergo, spies and betrayal as obvious plot lines. So, although there's no canon for up-coming treachery, it is a favourite theme. Along the lines of: 'I may be wrong, but I'm not uncertain.' Gives one the opportunity to vent feelings on certain unfavourite characters. I strongly recommend going back in the listings to anyone who has recently joined; the quality of some of those posts is very, very high. (One gem I particularly like is No.40044, The Spying Game Part ll - I want you to DIE, Mr Potter. *Very* long, but good.) Yes, I know it takes all of our time and effort to keep up with the current postings, but most of the current pre-OoP topics have been sliced, diced and digested long since. Repetition does not add charm in most instances, though new slants keep emerging, proving once again that suspicion and paranoia are alive and well on HPfGU. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 8 10:42:46 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:42:46 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > B Arrowsmith wrote: > > > Kneasy said: > > > > > > . . . I can only find Godrics Hollow referred to as 'house' not > > a 'home', ...edited... > > > So, is it home? If not, where is? And who has the keys? > > > > > Scott: > > > ... The HP Lexicon says it's a Muggle Village where Lilly and > > > James had a cottage.... > > > > > > owlery2003 > > > > > > > > > > > > Me: > > PS (page 14 "The Boy Who Lived") McGonagall speaking - > > > > "What they're /saying/," she pressed on, "is that last night > > Voldemort turned up in Godric's Hollow. He went to find the Potters. > > The rumour is that Lily and James Potter are - are -that they're - > > /dead/". > > > > Geoff > > > bboy_mn: > edited > So that implies that Godric's Hollow is a town or village rather than > the name of a mansion, manor, or country estate. > > Also, other people have lived in Godric's Hollow, for example, Bowman > Wright of Godric's Hollow is the inventor of the Golden Snitch. > > To the main question of what happen to the Potter house in Godric's > Hollow, we first need to decide if this was a house they were renting > or a house they owned. > > The next step, assuming ownership, is to ponder whether this was the > ancestral home of the Potter's, or just Lily and James house? > > The next step assuming ownership and ancestral home, is whether this > was a cottage, a nice house, or a mansion. > > Then we can finally ponder it's location and fate. > > My position right now, with admittedly little to back it up, is that > it was either rented or a small cottage that James and Lily owned. > > The next question I must ponder given that James seems to have > inherited significant wealth, where is the Potter ancestral home? > > Enquiring minds want to know. > > bboy_mn I'm happy to concede that Godrics Hollow is more likely to be a place than a building, but as repeated above by bboy_mn, the main thrust of my question, 'where is home for the Potters and who has the keys?' might have some significance in the scheme of things. We know a lot of money came from somewhere, a fairly large family was depicted in the Mirror of Erised, and Sirius was accepted into James' family home, so there was space to spare. Why so little information about James' family and their home? Even less than about Lilys'. My suspicion index is rising. Kneasy From pen at pensnest.co.uk Fri Aug 8 10:44:39 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:44:39 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in Snape's DADA? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <4F7742FD-C98D-11D7-8CE4-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 76047 On Friday, Aug 8, 2003, at 06:31 Europe/London, greatelderone wrote: > > Except we the readers this time don't have direct evidence(such as > the color and description of the brewed potion) to see how well Harry > did on the potions practical and instead are relying on Harry's > feelings and perceptions which are notoriously pessimistic in regard > to exams like in SS/PS where he was amazed that he passed all the > exams with good marks and in PoA where he thought that he failed the > potions exam and when he did pass he thought that Dumbledore had > pulled some strings with Snape instead of thinking that he passed > based on his own merits. Was that the one where Snape wrote down something that Harry thought was a zero? It just occurs to me to wonder whether that might, in fact, have been an 'O' for Outstanding? Interesting thought, anyway. Pen From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 10:52:48 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (Zeynep Oner) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 03:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who did Bertha see kissing In-Reply-To: <1060295737.8265.10245.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030808105248.1190.qmail@web12505.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76048 "Diana Williams" wrote > The only problem with Snape being the person with > Florence is that Bertha > was several years older than Snape & the Marauders. > She looked "around > sixteen" to Harry in the Pensieve scene, which would > make Snape 13-14 years > old at the time of the kiss with Florence. I write: How do we know their age difference, did I miss something? I don't think there was any reference to any age differences. We know that Lucius is 41 now, making him 26 when Harry and Draco was born; 9 years after Hogwarts graduation. Assuming Harry was born right after his parents' marrige, the Potters should be 18 when Harry was born. So, assuming Snape was 13 when Bertha was sixteen, that would make the Marauders also 13 and Lucius 21, and not a student in Hogwarts. So it cannot be Lucius Bertha saw. Of course, we don't know Harry was born right after marriage, and we don't know Snape was 13 when BErtha was 16, so we can only make wild guesses about the identity of the Mystery Man. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From scooting2win at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 11:02:53 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:02:53 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F465@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John, C" wrote: > Just a thought, but you don't suppose Voldemort's grandfather could be - > Marvolo Grindelwald! > > Might explain a few things; > 1. Riddle's fear of Dumbledore > 2. Where Riddle got all his information from My reply: I must say that is a good question, and to think we all have to wait until book 7, and even then that question may not be answered I know it will be, but it still makes you wonder. I wouldn't doubt this one being true for anything, except one thing, if he is, Tom (Voldemort) would have no way of knowing a true account of his Grandfather's downfall given the fact that he was raised in an orphanage. and his mother died, Lori From scooting2win at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 11:03:06 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:03:06 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: <91326A1A487FD411A59500508BAEDD9E0706F465@icex11.cc.ic.ac.uk> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John, C" wrote: > Just a thought, but you don't suppose Voldemort's grandfather could be - > Marvolo Grindelwald! > > Might explain a few things; > 1. Riddle's fear of Dumbledore > 2. Where Riddle got all his information from My reply: I must say that is a good question, and to think we all have to wait until book 7, and even then that question may not be answered I know it will be, but it still makes you wonder. I wouldn't doubt this one being true for anything, except one thing, if he is, Tom (Voldemort) would have no way of knowing a true account of his Grandfather's downfall given the fact that he was raised in an orphanage. and his mother died, Lori From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 11:07:00 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:07:00 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" > wrote: > > How come no one refers to Harry as a half-blood? If his mother is a > > mudblood, as Snape's statement seems to imply, then Harry should be > > referred to as a half-blood. However, on the train to Hogwarts in > > PS/SS, Malfoy tries to warn him not to hang out with mudbloods and > > Weasleys - as if he's better than that. Considering the fact that > > Harry is exceedingly famous, it seems logical that the WW would know > > his lineage. > > *Yaira* > > bboy_mn: > > Your 'blood' is not absolute, it is in the eye of the beholder. To the > Malfoys and others obssessed with pure blood, if you have any muggles > or muggle-borns anywhere in your family history, you are not a pure > blood and therefore, automatically a mudblood. > > Techincally, a half-blood would be half muggle and half wizard (Tom > Riddle), NOT half muggle-born witch and half wizard father (Harry Potter). > > But the terms are defined, not by formal definition, but by the > prejudices of the person who is making the judgement. You will note > for the paragraph above, that Harry is more of a pure blood that Tom > Riddle. Both of Harry's parents are magical. > > Mudblood - anyone whose blood isn't ancestrally pure back to the > beginning of time. (Something I see as very unlikely) > > Muggle-born - magical person of non-magical parents. > > Half-blood - Half muggle; half magical. > > Full-blood - both parents magical, but not necessarily pure-blood. > > By the most techincal definition, Harry is a Full-blood, but not a > pure-blood. > > Again, techincal definitions mean nothing, when it is the prejudice of > another person that determine who and what you are in their eyes. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Geoff: Harry's take on that is interesting in OOTP: "Shut your mouth!" Bellatix shrieked. "You dare speak his name with your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your half-blood's tongue, you dare -" "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry recklessly......."Voldemort? Yeah, his mother was a witch but his dad was a Muggle - or has he been telling you lot he's pure-blood?" Harry seems to accept BL's comment re him being half-blood without contradiction. From scooting2win at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 11:10:40 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:10:40 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76052 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >(Big Snip) sorry > > The next question I must ponder given that James seems to have > > inherited significant wealth, where is the Potter ancestral home? > > > > Enquiring minds want to know. > > > > bboy_mn > > I'm happy to concede that Godrics Hollow is more likely to be a place > than a building, but as repeated above by bboy_mn, the main thrust of > my question, 'where is home for the Potters and who has the keys?' > might have some significance in the scheme of things. > > We know a lot of money came from somewhere, a fairly large family > was depicted in the Mirror of Erised, and Sirius was accepted into > James' family home, so there was space to spare. Why so little > information about James' family and their home? > Even less than about Lilys'. > > My suspicion index is rising. > > Kneasy my reply: you suspicions, if mine got higher I would be aunt Marge! I only have a thought about this, and it's up above, ancestral home? Yeah come to think of it, where is it, when do we get the tour. What hasn't harry been told about this, would dumbledore think that his protection would not extend to the house of the Potters? Lori From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 11:45:43 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 04:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030807225233.36021.qmail@web80311.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76053 I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change is plausible. She goes from being pretty much unnoticeable to being almost a female version of Harry. In reality, which I know fiction is not, it takes time for humans to change parts of their personality they want to improve. And the transformation is usually gradual and may take years. I think it would be quite hard for a timid person to all of a sudden be brassy. Obviously, JKR did this because of the role Ginny would be playing in the last books, and she couldn't do that with a wallpaper personality. Possibly, Ginny's going to (a) play an important role in the second war and/or (b) hook up with Harry, in which case he needs a stronger partner, more like his mother who wasn't afraid to stand up to his dad. Don't get me wrong. I like Ginny's improvement, but it's just not authentic. Before OOTP when I read posts hoping that Harry and Ginny would connect, I thought, "You gotta be kidding. She's not right for him." But now I can absolutely see them together and hope they do. She's very much like his mother (red hair, fearless). I do have one problem with her though. She switches boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then Dean Thomas (Cho seems to do the same, floating from boy to boy). By the time Harry and she get together, she'll have dated every available boy at Hogwarts. They're too young for this. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 8 12:01:32 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:01:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's (un)fair grading References: Message-ID: <001f01c35da4$d05d48e0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76054 From: bibphile <>But if you fail all your OWLS, then you can't get into any of the classes sixth year. I think they all demand at least an "A" for you to get in. It's just that some demand higher. If you don't get any OWLS, you can't take any more classes. You've failed. Fred and George each got three OWLs. That mean they can each take three classes sixth yeaer (assuming each OWL was in a different subject). At least that's what I think. You can continue with potions if you get an "O" on the OWLs no matter what you make in class. You can continue with Transfiguaration if you get an "E." But I doubt any class will let you continue if you don't get at least an "A". This is all theory. I'm basing it on what I've seen in the books and what I've heard about the O-levels that used to be given in the UK. I could be wrong. It's just that when they talked about what Harry needed to take higher classes, nobody mentioned class-room grades. bibphile ----------- The old 'O' and 'A' levels didn't have any grading from class work, it was simply a case of how you did on the day of the exam. only the CSE grades needed a score from classwork, which was initially supplied by the teacher. It was possible to take the higher level exams without having taken any classes for the lower exams, let alone passing the exam (I took my A level English Lit. exam although I'd not done the CSE or O level course. I took the O level Eng. Lan. having spent 2 years doing the standard CSE class. I scraped through on my Maths CSE, but went on to do the O level class) If you failed, it was possible to retake the exam if you needed to, and passing onto a higer course even without a pass mark was possible at the teaching staff's discretion. It was, and is, common to only offer certain courses to students once they have entered the extended '6th form' level, the optional 2 years after your 16th year. It is also possible that some of the lower level courses might be taken in some subjects that had clashed with prefered courses(maybe Hermione might decide to do those classes she dropped when she decided to stop using the Time Turner?). So it is possible that some new or more specialised courses could be introduced in the next book! Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Ali at zymurgy.org Fri Aug 8 12:22:16 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:22:16 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76055 I apologise that this is a bit late, and also rather long. It seemed to get longer after every amendment I made. Anyway, discuss away: Harry sent to bed by his aunt and uncle after the Dementor attack/ Owl deluge immediately writes to Sirius, Ron and Hermione demanding answers and details of his removal from Privet Drive. He's full of anger and self pity, hating his confinement and child-like treatment. Harry snaps at Hedwig when she returns from hunting, but regrets his behaviour once he has lost her soothing presence ? his only friend at Privet Drive. He directs Hedwig to peck his friends until they give her answers, and then falls asleep still in his clothes. *4* days follow in which Harry is confined to his room, segregated from the rest of the household with his Aunt providing food through the cat flap. The segregation seems to suit all concerned as Harry isn't actually locked in his room but isolates himself from the Dursleys for fear of provoking further confrontations leading to possible unintended magic. Aunt Petunia refuses to engage Harry in any further discussions about her wizarding knowledge/connections. Harry's bedroom door seems to be a prop that Petunia now needs to rebuild the barrier she has towards the WW of which Harry is of course, a constant and visible reminder. Harry spends his time either full of restless energy or in a state of torpor that lays him out on his bed for hours at a time. He aches with dread at the thought the MOM hearing against him wondering whether he will end up in Azkaban. (Q1) Harry is a teenage boy who at this stage in the story is lacking any guidance, but does he have a hygiene problem? He goes to sleep in the same dirty, ill-fitting clothes that he is wearing when we first see him in Chapter 1. He doesn't comb his hair when confined to his room, but is this a symptom of a wider lack of looking after himself? His clothes might only have been dirty because he had been hiding in the flower bed, but is he actually allowed to wash his clothes? Has Petunia washed her hands of all responsibility towards Harry's physical appearance perhaps encouraging his delinquent appearance as it so obviously sets him apart from her and what she stands for, allowing her to despise him even more? (Q 2) Is the behaviour exhibited by Harry ? waxing between total inactivity and inability to stay still, a sign of depression or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder? We see him wanting to externalise some of the internal pain and frustration he is feeling by having Hedwig peck his friends this does seem to be an unwelcome development in Harry's character from the boy we left in GoF. (Q 3) Is Petunia's order that Harry is not to leave the house a further acknowledgement that she knows that Harry is now only safe *in* the house? But her insistence that Harry be confined to his room seems to be for her benefit as she cannot stand his presence. (Q 4) Is Hedwig's ability to follow Harry's orders, as we later find out that she has pecked Ron and Hermiony, an indication of her having a special talent or are all owls capable of more than messenger duties? After 4 nights the Dursleys are lured out of the house as they believe they have been short listed for the All-England Best Kept suburban lawn competition. Vernon is typically smug when he tells Harry that the Dursleys are going out, but he, Harry is not allowed to even leave his room. After Vernon tells Harry that he is not to leave his room, steal food or touch the Dursley's possessions, he seems taken aback by Harry's lack of interest and decides to lock Harry up anyway. The path is now clear for Harry to be rescued. Harry first hears a noise in the kitchen and thinks there might be burglars. The crash turns out to be Tonks breaking something. (Q 5) How did the Advance Guard arrive? Presumably they all apparated, but Harry didn't appear to hear any "popping" sounds which were so loud when Mundungus disapparated that half of Privet Drive seemed to hear him leave ? unless the sound is louder when disapparating or when the apparition is carried out in the open air? Harry's jumps off his bed and makes to his door which magically unlocks, wand in hand. When Harry reaches the top of the stairs he hears Mad-eyed Moody's voice, but doesn't trust him. He only descends the stairs after he has been reassured by Professor Lupin and he has seen a large group of wizards in the hallway. Harry is very uncomfortable and self conscious to see all the wizards staring at him. Just as Harry was unsure whether the Moody was the real Moody, so Moody asks for confirmation that Harry is actually Harry ? even suggesting Veritaserum as a means to confirm Harry's identity. Lupin asks Harry about his Patronus. Harry is introduced to the members of the Advance Guard. Only Tonks and Kingsley Shacklebolt have any great role in OoP . Moody stops Harry from asking about Voldemort saying it is not safe to speak there. Harry learns that he is to fly to his new safe haven. (Q 6) Are the likes of Elphias Doge and Emmeline Vance the equivalent of the "Red shirts" in Star Trek, crew members introduced to be killed off? Sturgess Podmore gives us an indication that this might be the case, as to date; his function has been to be Imperioed and imprisoned. Harry learns that Tonks is a Metomorphmagus and an auror who seems to greet everyone with the East London term "Wotcher" although we are given no other indication that she has a London accent, so this phrase could just be an affectation or habit. We learn that being a Dark Wizard catcher is the only career that Harry has ever considered. (Q 7) Will Tonk's special talent come into play later or is JKR really overplaying the changing appearance card? (Q 8) At this stage in OoP, Harry hasn't been banned from Quidditch, so why has he never considered Quidditch as a professional career? He loves it and appears to be exceptionally gifted at it, yet here seems content to continue it as a hobby. Tonks helps Harry to pack his trunk and then they return to the kitchen where Moody places a Disillusionment Charm on Harry so that, chameleon-like, he resembles his surrounding background. After a signal, Harry and his guard fly to his safe haven. Harry learns that there is a rear guard as well. (Q 9) The size of Harry's guard is partly due to intrigue about Harry, but seems absurd when compared to his trip to the MOM when Harry has only Mr Weasley to accompany him. Is Harry really unsafe or is it just a combination of Moody's paranoia and other peoples general nosiness? Harry becomes very cold flying but experiences real pleasure, forgetting his problems for the first time in weeks. Harry and co finally land in an unkempt square in a dilapidated almost slummy part of London. We are reintroduced to the Put-Outer first used by Dumbledore at the beginning of PS/ SS. The chapter finishes with Moody giving Harry written details of the Order of the Phoenix HQ which he tells Harry to memorise. (Q 10) Does the use of the Put Outer here show that it is used solely as its name implied or is it an indication that Harry is again provided wit Multi-layered protection without him realising? (Q 11) Why when the MoM appear to monitor Harry's presence in Privet Drive, do they not monitor ? or question ? his sudden disappearance from there? (Q 12) Much of this chapter could be viewed as superfluous narrative. Is this a chapter which a more rigorous editor would have stripped down to a few lines? Has JKR's success actually meant that her editors are now reluctant to offer advice and guidance which might have lead to the OoP being a shorter and punchy book? Ali From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Fri Aug 8 12:39:12 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:39:12 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > is plausible. She goes from being pretty much > unnoticeable to being almost a female version of > Harry. In reality, which I know fiction is not, it > takes time for humans to change parts of their > personality they want to improve. And the > transformation is usually gradual and may take years. > I think it would be quite hard for a timid person to > all of a sudden be brassy. ME HERE: Hi, ummm, Ginny was just shy and timid around Harry. She had a crush on him. She couldn't talk to him. Remember Ron saying "This is weird she ususally never shuts up." It was not until she got *over* the crush that she could talk to Harry like she talked to everyone else. And I do think that Ginny has been hiding her self from her bossy brothers and demanding mother. She is a little (I guess) like Ron in that way. Large family dynamics being what they are younger children, once they realise the older ones are just older not better. Come out of their shell faily quickly. Because they were never shy or timid in the first place. They were just following the family pecking order. (speeking as one from a large family and one of the youngers). > > Obviously, JKR did this because of the role Ginny > would be playing in the last books, and she couldn't > do that with a wallpaper personality. Possibly, > Ginny's going to (a) play an important role in the > second war and/or (b) hook up with Harry, in which > case he needs a stronger partner, more like his mother > who wasn't afraid to stand up to his dad. > Me Here: I vote for play an important role. I like the hook up part being a romantic and all... but, I don't see JKR hooking him up with Ginny. I still think it is going to be *as much as I hate saying this* Cho. yuck! pooie. But, I think that JRK is going to have Cho come around again. I can't tell you why I feel this way, but it was just a feeling I had as I read the OOP on the train home. Oh well. just a thought... > Don't get me wrong. I like Ginny's improvement, but > it's just not authentic. > > Before OOTP when I read posts hoping that Harry and > Ginny would connect, I thought, "You gotta be kidding. > She's not right for him." But now I can absolutely see > them together and hope they do. She's very much like > his mother (red hair, fearless). > > I do have one problem with her though. She switches > boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then > Dean Thomas (Cho seems to do the same, floating from > boy to boy). By the time Harry and she get together, > she'll have dated every available boy at Hogwarts. > They're too young for this. ===== > Buttercup ME here: Hi, Buttercup, I like that they are switching around a lot. That means they are not getting to *to* serious. Leading to teenage preg, and ruined lives. I think that teenagers should date a lot of different people. If they don't when they are young when are they going to find out what they like? At least at this age they can date a few times and run on to the next guy. With out getting hot and heavy. The kids are young, but my mother used to talk about dating when she was in high school *late 40's early 50's (when a hot date was a kiss on the lips). She used to go out with different boys every friday nite. Going out with the same boy was *going steady* and that was just one large *no no*. So date away Ginny, Hermione, Cho, Ron, Nevelle, and who ever else wants to hop around. I think it is healthy. Cheers... Tj From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 8 12:47:56 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:47:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Redemption References: Message-ID: <3F339BFC.6010602@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76057 This Snape DE status is really bugging me. If we take it that Snape is the one "who has left me forever" Voldemort's statement that "he will be killed" seems to imply that Snape should be on all DE's hit list. > > Quote: > "One too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has > left me forever...he will be killed of course...and one who remains > my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service. How can Snape be the one who has left him forever, and "will be killed" and at the same time be *Lucius Malfoy's lapdog*? If Malfoy snr is a faithfull DE he surely should have killed Snape as a traitor by now. So whats going on? Is this JKR misleading us yet again? Either Snape has *not* compromised his DE position with LV, but has "exemption" from appearing when called by the dark mark, so as not to compromise his position as spy in Dumbledore's inner circle, or Lucius Malfoy has *other plans* and is a bit of a traitor on the quiet himself. Not that I suspect LM of being *good*, you understand. I just suspect he may have ideas of understudying Voldemort for the purpose of usurping the Dark Lord postion in the future. Your thoughts welcomed digger From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Fri Aug 8 12:49:48 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?=22Przemys=B3aw_=5C=22Pshemekan=5C=22_P=B3askowi?= =?ISO-8859-2?Q?cki=22?=) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:49:48 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F339C6C.7040205@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 76058 Buttercup wrote : >I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change >is plausible. She goes from being pretty much >unnoticeable to being almost a female version of >Harry. > Not quite. Let's quote CoS (chapter 3): >>"Ginny," said Ron. "You don't know how weird it is for her to be this shy. She never shuts up normally --"<< So, her shyness was just because she had a crush on Harry -- and since we know that books are from Harry's POV it is not surprising, that she was unnoticeable also in PoA. Her blooming in OotP was foreshadowed in GoF: she knew who was Hermione's date but didn't told boys, went to Yule Ball with Neville. Not to mention that in first three books she was a child, now she is a teenager, major change of character by itself. Therefore I don't think her change is not plausible. Regards, -- Pshemekan From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 8 12:52:28 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:52:28 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Redemption References: <3F339BFC.6010602@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3F339D0C.000001.56061@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 76059 digger said or Lucius Malfoy has *other plans* and is a bit of a traitor on the quiet himself. Not that I suspect LM of being *good*, you understand. I just suspect he may have ideas of understudying Voldemort for the purpose of usurping the Dark Lord postion in the future. Me - Oh yeah - that seems right to me. I don't think you can put Lucius in a box as being on 'their' side or 'our' side. I think the only person whose side Lucius Malfoy is on is Lucius Malfoy - after all Slytherins are ambitious and scheming, it's the Hufflepuffs who are loyal. I think he's solidly behind whichever side wins, and if he himself is the one doing the winning, well so much the better. Which brings me to something else - people keep saying that maybe Peter wasn t a Gryffindor because he doesn't fit the description. Sure he does. If it was a one time only betrayal then there's nothing about that that is brave (which is the defining characteristic of Gryffindors), but it wasn't. He spied on them for an entire year - which takes a lot of nerve. Gryffindors don't have to be honourable, loyal and true - just brave. hmmm - should I worry I spend too much time talking HP since my spellchecker now recognizes all the houses and the major characters without a problem, but still tries to spell honourable like an American. K From drdara at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 13:17:27 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 06:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030808131727.2659.qmail@web14510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76060 Ok in case someone hasn't mentioned this before, just because Harry saw the memory of them in the 5th year doesn't mean it was 20 years prior to his viewing. So if they were 35/36 in POA they would have been 37/38 in OOP. This is based on the info we were given from that interview. Having Lily and the gang born in 1955 would mean they would have been 40 in OOP and as we know L. Malfoy was 41, he was born in 1954 or 1955, forget when it said he was 41. And we know that Lily and gang are at least 2-3 years young if not more. I think they were born in 1957. Which would have them starting school in 1968 and finishing in 1975??? So if they were born in 1957, they would have been about 23 when Harry was born. Which gives them plenty of time to have been in the order and thwart Lord Thingy 3 times or more. Just my opinion and nothing more. Danielle --- Marci wrote: > > Buttercup asks: > > > > I must have misunderstood the interview, I thought > she > > was referring to their ages in Book 1 as 35 or 36 > > years old, which would make them 40 or 41 in Book > 5. > > Did she specifically say POA? Thanks! > > > --- RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > > > > We learned that Lucius Malfoy is 41 in OotP, and > JKR > > > said in an interview that > > > Lupin (or Sirius, whatever, since they were in > the > > > same year anyway) was 35 or > > > 36 in PoA, making them 37 or 38 in OotP... > > My turn. I was surprised to see this question here > along with the > question about Hagrid and Dumbledore, so I snagged > the following from > my own group as a reply. Any thoughts on it are > certainly welcome. > > --- > > In AdultHPFanatics at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" > > wrote: > 1841ish Albus Dumbledore > 1919 Minerva McGonagall > 1926 Tom "Lord Voldemort" Riddle (16 when opened > the Chamber) > 1929 Hagrid (3rd year when expelled at 13) > 1931 Moaning Myrtle (IF she was a first year when > she died) > 1945-6 Petunia, Vernon > 1948 Lucius, Arthur, Molly > 1955-6 Snape, Lily, James, Remus, Peter, Sirius > (Possibly > Narcissa, Andromeda & Bellatrix) > 1963(?) Barty Crouch, Jr. > 1968(?) Charlie > 1970(?) Bill (Possibly Tonks) > 1976 Percy, Oliver > 1978 Fred & George, Lee, Angelina, etc. > 1980 Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, > Dudley, etc. > 1981 Ginny, Luna, Colin, etc. > 1983 Dennis Creevey > > > > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 8 13:35:20 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:35:20 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Harry first hears a noise in the kitchen and thinks there might be > burglars. The crash turns out to be Tonks breaking something. > Harry's jumps off his bed and makes to his door which magically > unlocks, wand in hand. When Harry reaches the top of the stairs he > hears Mad-eyed Moody's voice, but doesn't trust him. He only > descends the stairs after he has been reassured by Professor Lupin > and he has seen a large group of wizards in the hallway. Me (Bill): Since I first read this scene, I have thought that the 'rescue party' was using an amazingly poorly thought-out plan. Look at what happens from Harry's PoV: 1) He has been attacked by Dementors, and threatened with expulsion from Hogwarts. 2) He recieves NO communication for three days; not even from his 'friends'. 3) One night, when his relatives are away, he hears noises from downstairs. 4) He determines that a large group of unknown people, probably wizards, have invaded the house. What would he be expected to conclude? A little over a month earlier, he witnessed Voldemort's rebirth, and he knows that one of his top priorities is killing Harry. Harry has already faced a deadly attack a few days earlier. In the absence of word from any allies, he would have been quite justified in believing that the mysterious intruders were Death Eaters. And the members of the 'advance guard' know this. They are VERY lucky that Harry did not start throwing curses at them; and then where would he be? If he was almost expelled for one Expecto Patronum, then adding a dozen Stupifies and Expelliarmuses would have done it for sure - not to mention the possibility that he might have escaped the house still believing that they were Death Eaters, and gone into hiding. The MoM does not seem to care that he has moved to a new location, so how hard would it have been to send a letter telling him that a group of friends was coming to pick him up? Bill From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Aug 8 13:47:43 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:47:43 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308081547.43961.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76062 princesspeaette: > One, who I believe has > left me forever...he will be killed of course He believes, he's not sure. After all, he dind't blow up his coverage with Quirrell in PS. Now suppose you pretend to be loyal to Voldie, you'll protect the Stone so that no one steals it before your master does. As Voldie didn't identify himself, why should Snape let or aid Quirrel get the stone? Quirrel could be a double-test from DD to see if he was loyal. That's what you should explain V before he kills you, I think. K <> Add to that the things that can be gained through a traitor. Snape is well situated, so, why 'waste' that? silmariel From magicroxx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 14:04:28 2003 From: magicroxx at yahoo.com (magicroxx) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:04:28 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" > > wrote: > > > How come no one refers to Harry as a half-blood? If his mother > is a > > > mudblood, as Snape's statement seems to imply, then Harry should > be > > > referred to as a half-blood. However, on the train to Hogwarts in > > > PS/SS, Malfoy tries to warn him not to hang out with mudbloods > and > > > Weasleys - as if he's better than that. Considering the fact that > > > Harry is exceedingly famous, it seems logical that the WW would > know > > > his lineage. > > > *Yaira* > > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > Your 'blood' is not absolute, it is in the eye of the beholder. To > the > > Malfoys and others obssessed with pure blood, if you have any > muggles > > or muggle-borns anywhere in your family history, you are not a pure > > blood and therefore, automatically a mudblood. > > > > Techincally, a half-blood would be half muggle and half wizard (Tom > > Riddle), NOT half muggle-born witch and half wizard father (Harry > Potter). > > > > But the terms are defined, not by formal definition, but by the > > prejudices of the person who is making the judgement. You will note > > for the paragraph above, that Harry is more of a pure blood that Tom > > Riddle. Both of Harry's parents are magical. > > > > Mudblood - anyone whose blood isn't ancestrally pure back to the > > beginning of time. (Something I see as very unlikely) > > > > Muggle-born - magical person of non-magical parents. > > > > Half-blood - Half muggle; half magical. > > > > Full-blood - both parents magical, but not necessarily pure-blood. > > > > By the most techincal definition, Harry is a Full-blood, but not a > > pure-blood. > > > > Again, techincal definitions mean nothing, when it is the prejudice > of > > another person that determine who and what you are in their eyes. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > > Geoff: > Harry's take on that is interesting in OOTP: > > "Shut your mouth!" Bellatix shrieked. "You dare speak his name with > your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your half-blood's > tongue, you dare -" > "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry > recklessly......."Voldemort? Yeah, his mother was a witch but his dad > was a Muggle - or has he been telling you lot he's pure-blood?" > > Harry seems to accept BL's comment re him being half-blood without > contradiction. Dumbledore also refers to Harry as a half-blood in his explanation of the prophecy "and notice this Harry, he chose not the pureblood....but the halfblood...." (page 842 american) Roxx From mcandrew at bigpond.com Fri Aug 8 14:08:16 2003 From: mcandrew at bigpond.com (Little lama) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:08:16 -0000 Subject: And back to... How Old Are Snape//James/Lily & co? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" > wrote: > > > Buttercup asks: > > > > > > I must have misunderstood the interview, I thought she > > > was referring to their ages in Book 1 as 35 or 36 > > > years old, which would make them 40 or 41 in Book 5. > > > Did she specifically say POA? Thanks! > > Well, GoF had just come out when Snape was said to be 35 or 36. If he was 35 at the end of Harry's fourth year, he would be twenty > years older than Harry or born in 1960. He was in the same year as MWPP, so they would also be born in 1960. Lily could be in a > different year, but I personally believe she was in the same year. > ... > --Barb Lama says: If I can just chip in here, these reported ages for Snape and Co really bother me. When JKR answered '35 or 36' to the question on Snape's age in an interview just after the release of GoF, most people assumed she was referring to his age at the time of GoF, i.e. the 1994/95 school year, because of the timing of the interview. But from memory, the question was posed and answered in a fairly general way which might possibly be interpreted as referring to Snape's approximate age at the beginning of the series. Think about it... if Snape, James, Lupin and Sirius were, say, 35 in mid 1994 when GoF started and 36 in mid 1995 when it finished, they would have been born in 1959, and would all have been about 21 at the time Harry was born. So in the three scant years between leaving school in mid-1977 at around 18, and Harry's birth in mid- 1980, James and Lily had found time to undertake the necessary training for and establish themselves in a demanding and challenging career, which they had also pursued for long enough to accumulate a large pile of money due to the special and arguably dangerous nature of their work (from memory, this was alluded to by JKR in one interview when asked about the reason why Harry had been left so financially well off); become active members of the original OOP in their spare time; and in their extra spare time, get married (by age 20) and produce Harry - not to mention that Lily would probably have had to take a few months out from active duty due to pregnancy. It all seems a bit hyperactive to me. Meanwhile Snape in the same short time has left school to follow his own path of becoming an active Death Eater for long enough to firmly establish his credentials with the other DEs before becoming disenchanted with the whole thing at some point, secretly defecting to Dumbledore's side, staying there long enough to build up DD's trust, presumably taking the time to upgrade his occlumency and other skills essential for his double life under DD's tuition (or maybe Voldy's), and then spying for Dumbledore for long enough to expose himself to `great personal risk' (OK, that might not take long). Again, quite a challenging schedule. And that's leaving aside the development of enough emotional maturity (a quality that's often in short supply at age 19 or 20) to be capable of making such a momentous decision. It's a frantic schedule that hardly allows him to have been a Death Eater for long enough to build up a truly satisfying legacy of lifelong guilt and repentance. I guess it's still arguable that Snape might have been able to squeeze all his post-Hogwarts activities into this time span, but in James and Lily's case, I'm seriously unconvinced that three years was enough time for them to acquire all the life experience listed above ? I think 4 or 5 would have to be the bare minimum for almost anyone to accomplish all that. So I prefer to regard JKR's comment as being unspecific as to exactly WHEN Snape was 35 or 36. And yes, I admit I would just like to think he was a touch older. From original_gt at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 14:09:37 2003 From: original_gt at yahoo.com (flying_meese) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:09:37 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76065 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" wrote: > How come no one refers to Harry as a half-blood? If his mother is a > mudblood, as Snape's statement seems to imply, then Harry should be > referred to as a half-blood. However, on the train to Hogwarts in > PS/SS, Malfoy tries to warn him not to hang out with mudbloods and > Weasleys - as if he's better than that. Considering the fact that > Harry is exceedingly famous, it seems logical that the WW would know > his lineage. > *Yaira* I'm sure that the Malfoy's know Harry is a half-blood. But I also imagine that Draco was well informed of the benefits of befriending the Famous Harry Potter. I see it as a bit of the pompousness and hipocracy that the powerful show, despite all the Malfoy's convictions on pure-bloodedness, that doesn't matter if associating with a half-blood can make you look good. FM From ajlboston at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 14:16:52 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:16:52 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed the similarities between Peter Pettigrew and > Colin Creevey? Interesting! Don't forget... as overheard in the Three Broomsticks... PP "hero-worshipped" James. Hm! A.J. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 8 14:21:01 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:21:01 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76067 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John, C" wrote: > > Just a thought, but you don't suppose Voldemort's grandfather > could be - > > Marvolo Grindelwald! > > > > Might explain a few things; > > 1. Riddle's fear of Dumbledore > > 2. Where Riddle got all his information from > > My reply: I must say that is a good question, and to think we all > have to wait until book 7, and even then that question may not be > answered I know it will be, but it still makes you wonder. I > wouldn't doubt this one being true for anything, except one thing, > if he is, Tom (Voldemort) would have no way of knowing a true > account of his Grandfather's downfall given the fact that he was > raised in an orphanage. and his mother died, Lori I've been thinking that there must be some Voldemort-Grindelwald connection too, though I hadn't thought of a family link. It's a good idea. The date of Grindelwald's downfall is one of the very few dates given in the books - 1945. When something unusual like that comes up, I have the feeling that we're meant to notice it. I think that would have been right after Tom Riddle left Hogwarts, so I was thinking it was possible that he left school and immediately sought out Grindelwald. There would have been time for them to meet before Dumbledore destroyed G. AFter that, I'm not sure. Maybe Riddle became a disciple of Grindelwald, and learned from him, so that he was able to carry on after Grindelwald fell. Or maybe Grindelwald's fall left a power vacuum on the Dark side, which Voldemort was able to exploit and take over. I just don't think it can be accidental that Tom Riddle headed for eastern Europe at about the time a very evil German wizard was around, and the two didn't intersect somehow. Wanda From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 14:34:53 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:34:53 -0000 Subject: Where are we headed in #6? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n_longbottom01" wrote: > The fear first: I'm afraid Harry is going to feel even more > alienated in book six, and he's going to try his best to distance > himself from everyone. Maybe it won't happen this way, but I'm > afraid we are going to see an even angrier Angry!Harry next time > around. Hopefully someone can snap him out of it before book 7 (I'm > pulling for Ginny to fill this role). Your fear is justified; whether or not it is realised just depends. It depends very much, I think, on what happens in the next few weeks at Privet Drive. Remember that we have had two rays of hope at the end of OoP. The first was Harry's conversation with Luna. First of all, I think he felt she understood him when talking about his seeing Sirius again after death, and she said it in a way that suited Harry's reticence - - not going on about it but just saying enough to console him with the truth. Secondly, she spoke freely and calmly about her missing possessions. Her calmness is the only thing that could allow Harry to stay and listen without his own emotions getting out of control as they had so often in this book (understandably IMO, but that's another post). Harry's ability to hear her in this scene allows him to focus his attention on someone else and he feels pity for her. Concern for someone else is one good way to lift your own spirits in times of trouble, and this is a very good thing Luna does for Harry. Incidentally, I get the feeling she may know that Harry is pitying her just then. Most people (at least in books) will say at this point, "I don't want your pity!" which is really a manifestation of pride, but Luna is completely unconcerned with personal pride as she seems to have a very good sense of her own dignity, and thus is able to give Harry a very great gift when it is sorely needed. The second ray of hope for Harry is, of course, at Kings Cross when his friends confront the Dursleys. At the end of this, Harry feels better for seeing them all firmly on his side. True, the Dursleys are only a small fraction of his troubles; however, they are going to be his troubles in the immediate future, and I think Harry is also quite relieved that he isn't going to be abandoned with them again. So, where may we be headed in book #6? Really, it's hard to say, but I have a few guesses. In the first chapters, it very much depends on how his adult friends decide to handle Harry's exile at the Dursleys'. They have told the Dursleys that they expect to hear from Harry every three days or so, and that he is to be able to use the telephone. I can't see anyone telling him any real news by owl, but that phone thing could be interesting. No one on Voldemort's side would be likely to be bugging number four, Privet Drive, would they? This suggests a new, safe (if anything's safe) channel of communication: Hermione could use it to let him know what's going on. I think JKR must have had *something* in mind for bringing it up. What else may Harry's wizard friends do? There may be no more than uninformitive, friendly owls. However, there is an opportunity for more, if they use it. Now that Harry knows who Mrs. Figg is, it would, of course be an excellent place for a visit should they decide to use it (as Steve/bboy_mn was hoping for the beginning of OoP). I get the feeling that Harry may not actually need that much, that tea with Mrs. Figg alone will be enough. So much for the rays of hope. The real big *question* is, what will Harry's relationship with Dumbledore be like now? In OoP the question is left completely open. Harry leaves Dumbledore's office thinking only of Sirius and the prophecy. Does Harry have any trust left in the headmaster? He certainly does seem to believe his interpretation of the prophecy, but it remains to be seen whether Harry had any wish to confide in him the next time something happens. OoP threw me for a loop. I never expected Dumbledore feeling that he had to cut Harry off like that, which took the entire book in a completely unexpected direction. I've learned my lesson. I will analyse what has happened to try to understand it. Certainly, I will speculate on how things *may* go in the future. But, I am keeping a *very* open mind about the next two books, even though I will always have hope for Harry. Annemehr From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 8 14:38:07 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:38:07 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] And back to... How Old Are Snape//James/Lily & co? References: Message-ID: <3F33B5CF.000005.56061@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 76069 Lama says: Think about it... if Snape, James, Lupin and Sirius were, say, 35 in mid 1994 when GoF started and 36 in mid 1995 when it finished, they would have been born in 1959, and would all have been about 21 at the time Harry was born. So in the three scant years between leaving school in mid-1977 at around 18, and Harry's birth in mid- 1980, James and Lily had found time to undertake the necessary training for and establish themselves in a demanding and challenging career, which they had also pursued for long enough to accumulate a large pile of money due to the special and arguably dangerous nature of their work (from memory, this was alluded to by JKR in one interview when asked about the reason why Harry had been left so financially well off); become active members of the original OOP in their spare time; and in their extra spare time, get married (by age 20) and produce Harry - not to mention that Lily would probably have had to take a few months out from active duty due to pregnancy. It all seems a bit hyperactive to me. Me - Firstly - I think JKR said James had inherited his money actually. Anyway - yes it is a fairly hectic schedule *for peacetime*, but they weren t growing up in a time of peace, they were growing up during a war. I imagine Tonks wasn't admitted to the Order until she became a fully qualified Auror, several years of training involved there then. Similar to the amount of training to be a tornado pilot in the RAF today. Whereas James and Lily joined (apparently) as soon as they left school and were probably given some hasty on the job style training by people like Moody and then thrown into the middle of things, possibly by the time school started again the year after they graduated, with James and Lily taking a few days off over the summer to get married - compare this to the way a WWI fighter pilot would be trained. As soon as they were old enough they joined up got a few weeks of training and after the barest amount of solo hours (enough to remember that this makes it go up, this makes it go down, turn here and fire by pushing this button) were sent straight to France and into combat. This would also account for the short life expectancy of Order members. They were children practically, fighting an adult's war, because they had to, because *someone* had to do it and the Order (and the Ministry) needed all the help it could get. I see Albus as creaming of the best few students from each year for the Order with the others taking up other careers involved to a greater or lesser extent with the war but not necessarily as high risk as the Order. K From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 14:44:44 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:44:44 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: Buttercup: > I do have one problem with her though. She switches > boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then > Dean Thomas (Cho seems to do the same, floating from > boy to boy). By the time Harry and she get together, > she'll have dated every available boy at Hogwarts. > They're too young for this. > > > Looking at it from the boy's side, when I was a lot younger than I am now (chorus of "aaah" please), I had a close friend who was almost a younger brother to me. Whenever I came back from a holiday or something, the first question to his parent was "Who is Kim going out with now?" ONe had to be /very/ careful!! Geoff From steve at hp-lexicon.org Fri Aug 8 14:45:31 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:45:31 -0000 Subject: And back to... How Old Are Snape//James/Lily & co? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Little lama" wrote: > Lama says: > > If I can just chip in here, these reported ages for Snape and Co > really bother me. They bother me too, but they are fairly accurate. JKR said Snape was "35 or 36" but she wasn't specific nor was the question specific as to WHEN he was that age. The Lexicon gives the approximate date of 1960 but says that it could be several years either way. The general range, however, of them being born somewhere in the 1958-1962, is verified by the comment in OP that Harry is seeing his parents take their OWLs about twenty years ago. > the time Harry was born. So in the three scant years between > leaving school in mid-1977 at around 18, and Harry's birth in mid- > 1980, James and Lily had found time to undertake the necessary > training for and establish themselves in a demanding and challenging > career, which they had also pursued for long enough to accumulate a > large pile of money due to the special and arguably dangerous nature > of their work Here's where you're making a couple of errors. First of all, we don't have any idea what sort of "careers" they may have had. You describe those careers as damanding and challenging and even dangerous, but we don't know that. Second, all their money didn't come from any career of theirs. According to Rowling, James inherited his money. So while the date of 1960 is not to be taken as anything other than an approximation, it's not far off and it doesn't create an impossible story line for James and Lily's lives. They married young, had Harry young, and were at the most 23 or so when they died. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 14:51:15 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:51:15 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > , and gone into hiding. > > The MoM does not seem to care that he has moved to a new location, > so how hard would it have been to send a letter telling him that a > group of friends was coming to pick him up? > > Bill I suppose they couldn't've sent a letter as whoever sent the dementors to attack Harry would be watching the house/post to it - presumably, despite being safe inside the house, owls to the house could be intercepted? As they were very protective of him whilst flying to grimmauld Place, warning him - and possibly others - of this journey would have been very dangerous. I agree that just massing downstairs was a bit of a mistake - perhaps lupin could have gone upstairs and spoken to Harry before any noise - though probably the crash from Tonk's clumsiness wasn't expected! I agree that Harry was fully entitled to be very scared - and in fact to believe that it was something worse than burglars downstairs. As regards Harry's cleanliness, there is rather a funny article in the LTC at the moment about Harry not ever washing: and all the references to him simply getting up and dressing, no mention of baths/showers: I suppose we must preume that he gets washed on the days when his 'getting out of bed' routine isn't discussed - I hope so! We ca't expect all such details to be noted of course. From Zarleycat at aol.com Fri Aug 8 14:55:55 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:55:55 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > (Q1) Harry is a teenage boy who at this stage in the story is > lacking any guidance, but does he have a hygiene problem? He goes to > sleep in the same dirty, ill-fitting clothes that he is wearing when > we first see him in Chapter 1. He doesn't comb his hair when > confined to his room, but is this a symptom of a wider lack of > looking after himself? His clothes might only have been dirty > because he had been hiding in the flower bed, but is he actually > allowed to wash his clothes? Has Petunia washed her hands of all > responsibility towards Harry's physical appearance perhaps > encouraging his delinquent appearance as it so obviously sets him > apart from her and what she stands for, allowing her to despise him > even more? > (Q 2) Is the behaviour exhibited by Harry ? waxing between total > inactivity and inability to stay still, a sign of depression or Post > Traumatic Stress Disorder? We see him wanting to externalise some of > the internal pain and frustration he is feeling by having Hedwig > peck his friends this does seem to be an unwelcome development in > Harry's character from the boy we left in GoF. General comments on Qs1 and 2: I'm not a mental health expert, but I'd suspect that Harry's overall unconcern about his appearance is indicative of some deeper emotional problems. His feelings of anger, frustration, self-pity, isolation, plus guilt over Cedric's death, plus having to live with a family who has never provided him with emotional support I think is enough to make any 15-year-old show some outward manifestations of problems. Is this a clinical sign of depression? I'm not qualified to say. Is this a conscious or unconscious anti-Dursley activity? Petunia is so obsessively neat and clean. Harry's room is a mess. Petunia and Vernon want to present a picture-perfect image to the neighbors. Harry walks around the neighborhood in looking like he's pulled his clothes out of a dustbin. I'm willing to cut Harry some slack for his instructions to Hedwig. Perhaps setting your pet on your friends is not the nicest thing to do, but at this point, in addition to the above points, Harry has also been attacked, has been threatened with expulsion and now has a date with the Ministry hanging over his head. And, after that brief flurry of owls, Harry gets no other communication. Of course he's frustrated. I think he is desperate to get across that he really wants and needs some answers. Having Hedwig act up does not qualify as a particluarly great sin in my book. > (Q 3) Is Petunia's order that Harry is not to leave the house a > further acknowledgement that she knows that Harry is now only safe > *in* the house? But her insistence that Harry be confined to his > room seems to be for her benefit as she cannot stand his presence. Yes to the question. And, yes, I think she can't stand his presence. > (Q 6) Are the likes of Elphias Doge and Emmeline Vance the > equivalent of the "Red shirts" in Star Trek, crew members introduced > to be killed off? Sturgess Podmore gives us an indication that this > might be the case, as to date; his function has been to be Imperioed > and imprisoned. And Broderick Bode, who was mentioned in GoF... > (Q 7) Will Tonk's special talent come into play later or is JKR > really overplaying the changing appearance card? I can't imagine it not playing a greater part later. Simply introducing Tonks so that she can show how she takes other forms while escorting people about seems a waste of space. > (Q 8) At this stage in OoP, Harry hasn't been banned from Quidditch, > so why has he never considered Quidditch as a professional career? > He loves it and appears to be exceptionally gifted at it, yet here > seems content to continue it as a hobby. I wonder if Harry has already relegated Quidditch into a category of "Fun and Games" that he can't see pursuing as a career, even though he doesn't come out and say so. Had the Quidditch World Cup experience been simply an enjoyable, exciting event in GoF, perhaps it would have loomed larger in Harry's thoughts as a career. But, the fun of that event was immediately intruded upon by Death Eaters. Harry's life started taking a darker turn in GoF, and I think he had already started to understand that a battle with Voldemort would become inevitable. Playing professional Quidditch may already seem to be a completely useless way to fight DEs. > > (Q 9) The size of Harry's guard is partly due to intrigue about > Harry, but seems absurd when compared to his trip to the MOM when > Harry has only Mr Weasley to accompany him. Is Harry really unsafe > or is it just a combination of Moody's paranoia and other peoples > general nosiness? There did seem to be a sizable contingent of the curious in the group that picked up Harry, plus others that we didn't see who set off the signals in the night sky. If this is simply Moody's paranoia, at what point does his influence become a hindrance? If a platoon of people was needed to escort Harry to Grimmauld Place, and there were apparently a bunch of witches and wizards hanging around able to do this, then why were only five people available to go to Harry's rescue at the Department of Mysteries, when he was in imminent danger from a dozen wand-wielding DEs, especially as Dumbledore says later in the book that OoP members have safe ways of communicating with each other? The removal of Harry from the Dursleys was a planned operation and the activity at the MoM was a response to an emergency, but, still, the disparity in the number of people available to play a part bothers me. > (Q 10) Does the use of the Put Outer here show that it is used > solely as its name implied or is it an indication that Harry is > again provided wit Multi-layered protection without him realising? I'm not really sure why this was considered necessary. To keep Harry hidden? He was already under the Disillusionment Charm. To keep Muggles from noticing everyone disappearing into thin air as they entered 12 Grimmauld Place? Wouldn't Muggles find it odd that a bunch of people just flew in out of the sky on brooms? Harry was the only person who was Disillusioned, as it is clearly mentioned that during the flight he sees his trunk hanging from Tonks' broom and he notices Kingsley's bald head and twinkling earring during the flight. So, using the Putter Outer as a concealment tool seems to have been left just a tad too late. Is it part of an as-yet-unexplained protection? I don't think so. Unless it has something to do with Harry entering houses in which he will spend some time that are either non-Magical, like Privet Dr., or magical but with possible bad influences, like 12 Grimmauld Place. (Yes, it's the HQ of the Order, but it reeks with all that old pure- blood dark magic stuff.) > (Q 11) Why when the MoM appear to monitor Harry's presence in Privet > Drive, do they not monitor ? or question ? his sudden disappearance > from there? Don't really know, unless Dumbledore is able to exert a bit of influence and can assure the MoM of Harry's safety. Although that seems somewhat unlikely as Dumbledore currently was having his own issues with the MoM. Plus, would Harry be untrackable or unfindable when he was in 12 Grimmauld Place? How would the MoM be able to monitor him, and wouldn't someone there be concerned if they couldn't track him? Or has the MoM been told that Harry is with the Weasleys, and that's enough of an explanation? > (Q 12) Much of this chapter could be viewed as superfluous > narrative. Is this a chapter which a more rigorous editor would have > stripped down to a few lines? Has JKR's success actually meant that > her editors are now reluctant to offer advice and guidance which > might have lead to the OoP being a shorter and punchy book? I think that some of this chapter could have been trimmed. I wouldn't have wanted it left out entirely, as the jump from Privet Dr. to Grimmauld Place would have been too abrupt. Whether or not this means that JKR's editors are now being paid to not edit, I don't know. Maybe if the next book reaches 900 pages... Marianne From diana at slashcity.com Fri Aug 8 15:00:31 2003 From: diana at slashcity.com (Diana Williams) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:00:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE: Who did Bertha see kissing References: <20030808105248.1190.qmail@web12505.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01b801c35dbd$d4f73a00$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> No: HPFGUIDX 76074 In GoF, when Harry & Co are talking to Sirius about the missing Bertha Jorkins, Sirius says that she was 2 years ahead of them at Hogwarts. As for the ages of Lucius and the others - you could be right. We were going on the basis of JKR saying Snape was 34-35 in PoA, making him 37 now and Lucius 4 years older than him, but if he and the Marauders were born in 1960 as the Lexicon says, then he'd have been 33 in PoA and 35 now. Which means Lucius was 6-7 years older than Snape and the Marauders and, as you say, out of Hogwarts by the time of the kissing incident. Diana Williams ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zeynep Oner" > How do we know their age difference, did I miss > something? I don't think there was any reference to > any age differences. > > We know that Lucius is 41 now, making him 26 when > Harry and Draco was born; 9 years after Hogwarts > graduation. Assuming Harry was born right after his > parents' marrige, the Potters should be 18 when Harry > was born. So, assuming Snape was 13 when Bertha was > sixteen, that would make the Marauders also 13 and > Lucius 21, and not a student in Hogwarts. So it cannot > be Lucius Bertha saw. Of course, we don't know Harry > was born right after marriage, and we don't know Snape > was 13 when BErtha was 16, so we can only make wild > guesses about the identity of the Mystery Man. > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com > > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > From ajlboston at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 15:01:37 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:01:37 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sarah_haining" wrote: we know that > it is against one of the strictest Wizarding laws to go back and > alter time - it simply should not be done unless under very > safe/strict circumstances. > thus, Sirius was destined to die. He was > supposed to die that night at the hands (sorry, mouth ;) of the > Dementors. > who else was supposed to die that night? Who else was about to be > kissed? Harry. Harry is also living on time that, by rights, > shouldn't be his. Is his time also going to run out soon? Well, if Buckbeak dies soon, then we could be worried. (Wasn't there a bad movie out about this concept this past year?) A.J. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Aug 8 15:07:28 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:07:28 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: I do have one problem with her though. She switches > boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then > Dean Thomas (Cho seems to do the same, floating from > boy to boy). By the time Harry and she get together, > she'll have dated every available boy at Hogwarts. > They're too young for this. > > ===== > Buttercup Did she really swap that fast? I was under the impression that she dated Michael Corner for almost a year before dumping him. And either way, I don't think two boyfriends within two school years is *that* extravagant. evangelina (who just received the Unspeakable movies for her birthday without asking for them and wonders what kind of Harry Potter signals she is radiating) From vheggie at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 15:08:36 2003 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vanessa=20Heggie?=) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:08:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Oop & PoA: Harry and Neville's "connection" and foreshadowing In-Reply-To: <1060351832.51669.75698.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030808150836.11068.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76077 I believe were out of the realm of spoilers now, but Im going to use this space to say boring things about myself etc, so feel free to skip anyway! Ive been lurking on the list for a long time, but since I really enjoy listening to the audiobook, rather than reading the series, its taken me a *long* time to finish OOP. And yes, I do have US copies from a friend of a friend; after the death in book 5 was spoiled for me within 3 days of the release, I figured I couldnt possibly wait until late September for the UK version of the audiobook to come out. *has pre-ordered copy* *drums fingers* *waits for Mr Fry to get off his backside and get on with it.* In the meantime, I promised myself Id catch up with the list after Id finished OOP. Ha ha ha! Nearly 20,00 messages later I figured I could get away with selective reading, so if Ive missed someone else making exactly this point, Im sorry. So here goes. Wrt the new connection between Neville and Harry, via the Prophecy, did anyone else instantly think of the Night Bus scene in PoA? When Harry has to come up with a new identity, he seizes upon Nevilles name. This struck me as odd at the time, but perhaps less so nowgiven JKRs love of foreshadowing are there any other occasions in the books where Harry identifies with Neville? Or where they are described in similar ways? Or where he envies him (I doubt it)? I cant think of any off hand, but I wouldnt be surprised if they were there, somewhere Vanessa ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From malinit at excite.com Fri Aug 8 15:09:04 2003 From: malinit at excite.com (malinitosetti) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:09:04 -0000 Subject: Who did Bertha see kissing In-Reply-To: <01b801c35dbd$d4f73a00$0a02a8c0@DianaPC> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Diana Williams" wrote: > In GoF, when Harry & Co are talking to Sirius about the missing Bertha > Jorkins, Sirius says that she was 2 years ahead of them at Hogwarts. As for > the ages of Lucius and the others - you could be right. We were going on > the basis of JKR saying Snape was 34-35 in PoA, making him 37 now and Lucius > 4 years older than him, but if he and the Marauders were born in 1960 as the > Lexicon says, then he'd have been 33 in PoA and 35 now. Which means Lucius > was 6-7 years older than Snape and the Marauders and, as you say, out of > Hogwarts by the time of the kissing incident. > > Diana Williams > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Zeynep Oner" > > How do we know their age difference, did I miss > > something? I don't think there was any reference to > > any age differences. > > > > We know that Lucius is 41 now, making him 26 when > > Harry and Draco was born; 9 years after Hogwarts > > graduation. Assuming Harry was born right after his > > parents' marrige, the Potters should be 18 when Harry > > was born. So, assuming Snape was 13 when Bertha was > > sixteen, that would make the Marauders also 13 and > > Lucius 21, and not a student in Hogwarts. So it cannot > > be Lucius Bertha saw. Of course, we don't know Harry > > was born right after marriage, and we don't know Snape > > was 13 when BErtha was 16, so we can only make wild > > guesses about the identity of the Mystery Man. > > About the age difference between Lucius and James, Sirius, etc, I think that we know for sure that they have at least 7 years of difference, because Lucius was at Hogwarts at the same time than Arthur and Molly, and Molly says once that the Whomping Willow was planted the year after she left Hogwarts (and we know that it was planted the year Remus came to Hogwarts)... From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Aug 8 15:19:03 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:19:03 EDT Subject: ADMIN: Who Said That? Message-ID: <1ed.ea43178.2c651967@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76079 Greetings from Hexquaters! There seems to have been an increase recently in the number of posts which fail to attribute quotes. Please would you make sure that you do this. It is a matter of basic courtesy to the previous poster to acknowledge them and (given Yahoo!'s imperfect threading function) it helps anyone who might want to go back to find the quoted post to know who wrote it. Similarly, please don't just launch into a post with "That's a great idea"or "I agree", without letting us know whom you're agreeing with and (briefly!) what the idea is. Please attribute *clearly* and *accurately* and don't just rely on automatic nested attribution: ........................ ---In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Harry"> ---In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dick > wrote:> > ---In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom" wrote: >>>Phoenix tears....I forgot >>> >> >>Lucky for Harry that Voldemort always seems to have such memory lapses >Luck? What's luck got to do with anything? > >Harry ........................................ is not particularly clear, whereas .............................. Tom: >>>Phoenix tears....I forgot Dick: >>Lucky for Harry that Voldemort always seems to have such memory lapses Harry: >Luck? What's luck got to do with anything? ............................... leaves no room for error. Please attribute quotes *at the top*. Do not just leave a signature at the bottom, which may later (on quoting) look like the attribution of *your* comments. On a related issue, if you are referencing a theory or idea which you know you have heard previously in this group, would you please also acknowledge that fact? It is not uncommon for a number of people to come up with the same theory independently, but if you *know* your idea is not original and you know who *did* come up with the it, please mention them as a courtesy or (if you can't remember who) at least indicate that you have *read* the theory. Many thanks The HPfGU Admin Team. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 8 15:25:04 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:25:04 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: >> > (Q 12) Much of this chapter could be viewed as superfluous > narrative. Is this a chapter which a more rigorous editor would have > stripped down to a few lines? Has JKR's success actually meant that > her editors are now reluctant to offer advice and guidance which > might have lead to the OoP being a shorter and punchy book? > > Ali Tut! Tut! How better to hide clues and significant items than in verbosity? But for the ploy to be successful, the 'padding' should be regular throughout most of the book, which it is, save for 'action' scenes such as in the MoM. Otherwise, when the flannelling index rises readers are fore-warned 'here be something to watch!' JKR is also an addict for 'atmosphere'. Suck in the reader, make them feel comfy and at home, lull them, cosset them. So much detail makes the reader feel involved and very much a prime victim for a sly mugging. Her editors are probably scared stiff of cutting *anything*. She hasn't confided plot details or development to them; they were probably so damn grateful to finally receive the manuscript that they would have printed a bus ticket used as a page marker, had one been there. Kneasy From KLMF at aol.com Fri Aug 8 15:33:05 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (klmf1) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:33:05 -0000 Subject: Snape's nationality and worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frankielee242" wrote: > Was re-reading OoP again (like any normal, HPfGU listee) and a random > thought occured halfway through the chapter on Snape's worst memory. > > For the most part, people in the books seem to wear clothes under their > school robes. THERFORE, in order for him to be flipped upside down and > wind up with his pants on display, I submit that Snape is the offspring of an > obscure scottish clan and was forced to wear a kilt to school. > > Or maybe his mother was scottish and packed him off to Hogwarts in her > family's tartan. Either way. > > > Frankie, sinking back down into deep lurk I get the general impression that the older generations often didn't/don't wear trousers under their robes. I recall the scene in GoF at the QWW on the campground where HRH are in a line waiting for water and they hear a fellow named "Archie" refusing to replace his muggle woman's nightgown with trousers because he "likes a healthy breeze around my privates". Maybe it's just lucky for Snape that he was even wearing underwear! Karen F From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Aug 8 15:42:08 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:42:08 -0000 Subject: And back to... How Old Are Snape//James/Lily & co? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76082 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Little lama" wrote: > Meanwhile Snape in the same short time has left school to follow his > own path of becoming an active Death Eater for long enough to firmly > establish his credentials with the other DEs before becoming > disenchanted with the whole thing at some point, secretly defecting > to Dumbledore's side, staying there long enough to build up DD's > trust, presumably taking the time to upgrade his occlumency and > other skills essential for his double life under DD's tuition (or > maybe Voldy's), and then spying for Dumbledore for long enough to > expose himself to `great personal risk' (OK, that might not take > long). Again, quite a challenging schedule. And that's leaving > aside the development of enough emotional maturity (a quality that's > often in short supply at age 19 or 20) to be capable of making such > a momentous decision. It's a frantic schedule that hardly allows > him to have been a Death Eater for long enough to build up a truly > satisfying legacy of lifelong guilt and repentance. Oh, but I saw a movie about an undercover cop a while ago, and him working undercover for two years was considered a long time. And in that time he had to make friends further and further up the ranks (hm) in order to reach their Chief - Snape presumably already knew a bunch of DEs (the "gang of Slytherins" Sirius spoke of in GoF) and he had about four years (1977-81?) altogether among them. So... he could have been a true DE for, say, 1-2 years, changed his mind, gone to Dumbledore, convinced him... and then been a spy for at least a year. It's only too obvious I haven't thought this through that much, isn't it? :) evangelina From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 15:56:29 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:56:29 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76083 > Buttercup: > > I do have one problem with her though. She switches > > boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > > fourteen years. Compared to who? I knew girls who had a new boyfriend every week at 14. I think it speaks to her maturity-- she is "playing the field" instead of being caught up in some melodramatic nonsense-- how many of us knew girls in highschool (or have a duaghter) that swore every boyfriend was their one love and they would just *die* if they couldn't be together forever? I would rather have her seeing several guys and seeing whats out there for her, and keeping drama free, then obsessing over one person all day every day (Harry-Cho). From stbinch at actionsd.com Fri Aug 8 16:13:07 2003 From: stbinch at actionsd.com (Steve Binch) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:13:07 -0700 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? References: <1060351832.51669.75698.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000d01c35dc7$f46b65a0$0e01a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> No: HPFGUIDX 76084 Buttercup's original message: >I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change >is plausible. She goes from being pretty much >unnoticeable to being almost a female version of >Harry. In reality, which I know fiction is not, it >takes time for humans to change parts of their >personality they want to improve. And the >transformation is usually gradual and may take years. >I think it would be quite hard for a timid person to >all of a sudden be brassy. >Obviously, JKR did this because of the role Ginny >would be playing in the last books, and she couldn't >do that with a wallpaper personality. Possibly, >Ginny's going to (a) play an important role in the >second war and/or (b) hook up with Harry, in which >case he needs a stronger partner, more like his mother >who wasn't afraid to stand up to his dad. >Don't get me wrong. I like Ginny's improvement, but >it's just not authentic. >Before OOTP when I read posts hoping that Harry and >Ginny would connect, I thought, "You gotta be kidding. >She's not right for him." But now I can absolutely see >them together and hope they do. She's very much like >his mother (red hair, fearless). >I do have one problem with her though. She switches >boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only >fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then >Dean Thomas (Cho seems to do the same, floating from >boy to boy). By the time Harry and she get together, >she'll have dated every available boy at Hogwarts. >They're too young for this. >===== >Buttercup Now my original message: I agree that Ginny's personality has changed drastically, but I disagree that it is unbelievable. First of all, we barely even see her in books 3 and 4, so its been 3 years. Nobody's personality changes faster than a young teenage girl. Three years is plenty of time to change. Second of all, we don't know that her personality has changed in general, just in front of Harry. Fred and George make comments throughout the series (sorry, no book handy) hinting that Ginny is more than we see. And about going through too many boyfriends for 14 year old? Who here had strong meaningful romantic relationships at that age? I must have been 16 before I dated the same person for more than a month. I feel that the drastic change in Ginny's personality only makes her a multidimensional character. -Steve B From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 16:16:15 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:16:15 -0000 Subject: ages (was: Re: Who did Bertha see kissing) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "malinitosetti" wrote: > > About the age difference between Lucius and James, Sirius, etc, I > think that we know for sure that they have at least 7 years of > difference, because Lucius was at Hogwarts at the same time than > Arthur and Molly, and Molly says once that the Whomping Willow was > planted the year after she left Hogwarts (and we know that it was > planted the year Remus came to Hogwarts)... When did we learn that Arthur was at Hogwarts at the same time as Lucius? I don't remember that. Even if he was, it doesn't mean Lucius has to be 7 years older than MWPP. The youngest Molly and Arthur can be is 46 (assuming that they were at least 19 when Bill was born.) We were told Lucius is 41. MWPP seem to be 37. That would allow Molly to be more than 7 years older than MWPP and still attend Hogwarts at the same time as Lucius (for a couple years any way). bibphile From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 16:23:24 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:23:24 -0000 Subject: Sibyll Is a Prophet (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76086 Sibyll Is a Prophet (OOP, Chap. 37) To the tune of Jonah Was a Prophet, from Jonah: A Veggie Tales Movie You can hear a brief excerpt at: http://www.bigidea.com/music/soundtracks/jonahmovie.htm Dedicated to Ginger (fellow Veggie fan) THE SCENE: The Headmaster's office. DUMBLEDORE tells HARRY the story of SIBYLL TRELAWNEY'S first genuine prediction DUMBLEDORE (recitative, slow): Some years ago now, at Hog's Head Inn, I met a gal named Sibyll And all throughout our interview, she spoke the sheerest drivel I thought she had no talent, so began to kindly leave her But then by chance, a sudden trance Changed me to her believer.... (The music becomes very up-tempo as a full-size hologram of TRELAWNEY leaps from out the Pensieve and begins dancing with DUMBLEDORE) DUMBLEDORE: Sibyll is a prophet! TRELAWNEY: Ooh, ooh! DUMBLEDORE: Though she hardly ever got it TRELAWNEY: Not a clue! DUMBLEDORE: And she right away forgot it TRELAWNEY: Dudley-ee-doo! HARRY: OK, so what's your point!? TRELAWNEY: Predictions of Voldy I now to you will make boldly A lad unborn we'll soon behold, he's The one we must anoint! DUMBLEDORE: Sibyll is a prophet! TRELAWNEY & HARRY: Ooh, ooh! DUMBLEDORE: She was lousy when she taught it TRELAWNEY & HARRY: Sad, but true! DUMBLEDORE: But she deserves our plaudits TRELAWNEY & HARRY: Dudley-ee-doo! ALL: Let's get right to the point! TRELAWNEY: `Round Seven-Three-One Three-time survivors gonna have a son He'll show that he's the top Shogun Whom the Dark Lord can not match DUMBLEDORE But Voldy's spy was at that inn When we caught that dude listenin' We all tossed him out right on his chin This next part he didn't catch! TRELAWNEY: This boy is unique, he'll Be marked Voldy's equal And by the seventh sequel One will the other dispatch! ALL Hey! HARRY: Sibyll is a prophet! TRELAWNEY & DUMBLEDORE: Ooh, ooh! HARRY: I'll never dare to scoff it TRELAWNEY & DUMBLEDORE: Totally true! HARRY: She says one of us must off it TRELAWNEY & DUMBLEDORE Dudley-ee-doo! ALL: Add exclamation point! HARRY & DUMBLEDORE: Sibyll is a prophet! TRELAWNEY: Ooh, ooh! HARRY & DUMBLEDORE: We can never dare to scoff it TRELAWNEY: Thank you two! HARRY & DUMBLEDORE: She says one of us/you must off it TRELAWNEY: Dudley-ee-doo! ALL: Triple exclamation point! DUMBLEDORE (spoken) However, we were facing quite an interesting problem For the prophecy might have been of you or might have been Longbottom. But the Dark Lord marked the half-blood, for he saw himself in you -- That's how you obtained your scar that night when Voldy flew! TRELAWNEY & DUMBLEDORE: Protection from Lily Has made you very full of the Thing that's the greatest mystery! And yes, that is your heart! HARRY & DUMBLEDORE: Sibyll is a prophet! TRELAWNEY: Ooh, ooh! HARRY & DUMBLEDORE: We can never dare to scoff it! TRELAWNEY: Totally true! (Repeat x2) HARRY & DUMBLEDORE: Sibyll was a prophet! - CMC (who loves filking Trelawney) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 16:25:42 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:25:42 -0000 Subject: Snape's nationality and worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frankielee242" > wrote: > > Was re-reading OoP again (like any normal, HPfGU listee) and a > random > > thought occured halfway through the chapter on Snape's worst memory. > > > > For the most part, people in the books seem to wear clothes under > their > > school robes. THERFORE, in order for him to be flipped upside down > and > > wind up with his pants on display, I submit that Snape is the > offspring of an > > obscure scottish clan and was forced to wear a kilt to school. > > > > Or maybe his mother was scottish and packed him off to Hogwarts in > her > > family's tartan. Either way. > > > > > > Frankie, sinking back down into deep lurk > > > I get the general impression that the older generations often > didn't/don't wear trousers under their robes. I recall the scene in > GoF at the QWW on the campground where HRH are in a line waiting for > water and they hear a fellow named "Archie" refusing to replace his > muggle woman's nightgown with trousers because he "likes a healthy > breeze around my privates". Maybe it's just lucky for Snape that he > was even wearing underwear! > > Karen F That could be but remember who would of been at that game and were they had just walked through, IRISH LAND and what do they like to were? kilts Garrett From tigerfan41 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 16:34:28 2003 From: tigerfan41 at yahoo.com (Darrell Harris) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:34:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3565 In-Reply-To: <1060351832.51669.75698.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030808163428.82368.qmail@web10008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76088 > I have my own theory on Wizard genetics. Need a little simple Mendel set > up though. ;) > > Chromosomes > w = no magic > W = Magic > > ww (recessive -muggle- genes) = Muggle > Ww (Heterozygous muggle/wizard) = Wizard > WW (Double dominate Wizard gene - Presence of two W genes cancel each This doesn't allow for the birth of a wizard to muggle parents. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 8 16:46:06 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:46:06 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ffimiles" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > >> As regards Harry's cleanliness, there is rather a funny article in > the LTC at the moment about Harry not ever washing: and all the > references to him simply getting up and dressing, no mention of > baths/showers: I suppose we must preume that he gets washed on the > days when his 'getting out of bed' routine isn't discussed - I hope > so! We ca't expect all such details to be noted of course. Hey, c'mon - he took a bath in GoF to find out what was in his egg clue! June From pegruppel at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 16:46:41 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:46:41 -0000 Subject: Wizard Genetics - Or fun with Mendel's peas.. In-Reply-To: <3F31B221.2080704@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > I have my own theory on Wizard genetics. Need a little simple Mendel set > up though. ;) > > Chromosomes > w = no magic > W = Magic > > ww (recessive -muggle- genes) = Muggle > Ww (Heterozygous muggle/wizard) = Wizard > WW (Double dominate Wizard gene - Presence of two W genes cancel each > other out and produce non-magical child) = Squib Peg: Jazmyn, I like the principle, but I've been working with the genetics literature *a lot* lately. Mendel had colors down pretty well (BTW, did you know he cooked the data a little so the numbers would come out better?) It's possible (and I think highly likely) that there are multiple genetic factors, not just a simple either-or situation. That's when genetics gets really interesting. For example: W=Wizarding gene (magical powers) w=Nonwizarding gene (no magical powers) M=Muggle proneness (weakens the expression of the W gene) m=non-Muggle proneness (no effect on expression of the W gene) P=Wizarding power (strengthens the expression of the W gene) p=non-Wizarding power (no effect on the expression of the W gene) I suspect more Muggles are really Squibs, but don't know it, because the W gene has been wandering through their "Muggle" family for ages and nobody knows about it because they either have the M gene (in a double dose) or they lack the P gene. So what we get are not two possible states (magic and non-Magic), but an array of possible states. So, when two individuals get together, it's harder to say exactly whether their kids are going to be wizards or not. If both are wizarding type (WW) the likelihood that they'll have all Wizarding children is increased, but not guaranteed because M and P come into play. There's also no reason that all of their children will be equally powerful. OK, ready for the possible inheritance part? For example, two "known" wizards get married. The male is WwMmPp (a wizard but not hugely powerful), the female is WWmmPp (more powerful, ;) ). Since each contributes only half of the genes to each offspring, the male produces several possible sets of genes: Wmp, WmP, WMP, wMp, wmP, wmp. And the female produces: WmP, Wmp (only two types possible with her genetics). Now, the chances of any one child having a particular makeup is *random*--we don't know which child will be which until a particular sperm meets a particular egg. We've got 6 types of sperm and two types of eggs. But that doesn't mean there are 12 possible types, only 6, because of the way the genes interact with each other. So, what could happen? A lot: WWMmPp (moderate wizard-3 chances in 12) WWmmPP (really powerful wizard-Dumbledore-type-1 chance in 12) WWMmpp (really weak wizard, maybe a near-Squib-2 chances in 12) WwMmPp (really weak wizard, but not a near-Squib--Pettigrew type-2 chances in 12) WwmmPP (strong, but not astonishing wizard-1 chance in 12) Wwmmpp (near-Squib, 1 chance in 12) If you want to work this out for yourself, write the mother's genes at the top of a piece of paper(two columns) and the father's on the sides (6 rows) then just write down the combination of genes in columns. So, if they have 6 kids, do they get one of each type? Not necessarily. The likelihood of a particular type depends only on each pregnancy (the "roll of the dice" starts again with no "memory" of the previous event). So, in this case, we get the chance of weak to average wizards (WWMmPp, WWMmpp, WWmmPP, WWmmPp-10 chances), a single chance of a DD type (WWmmPP), a single chance of a strong wizard (WwmmPP), or a near-Squib (Wwmmpp). That's with each and every kid. Want to bet on how each one turns out? Your chances on this are actually better than that of winning the lottery! If you try it with different starting genes, of course there are some starting states where the likelihood of having all strong wizards or all weak wizards or even a few Squibs (wwmmpp) is much better. And all of this assumes that the Wizarding gene is dominant, the Muggle-proneness gene is dominant and the Powerfulness gene is dominant. That may not be the case . . . And then there's the interaction of the W gene with . . . Oh, heck. And, you can have all the genes, but if you're never educated, you're probably a hazard to the community. Anyway, it would account for the rarity of enormously powerful wizards (DD, LV, Harry) and the even greater rarity of Squibs (Filch and Figg). I know, I just wrote a novel. But it's a theory that's been banging around inside my head and I just had to get it out in the open. Peg From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 8 03:54:00 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:54:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portkeys - Curses foiled again References: Message-ID: <3F331ED8.3000702@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76091 Steve wrote: > > My conclusion is that they aren't used because the charm is too > difficult and dangerous for the average wizard. It requires a powerful > wizard with specialized training. One factor you didn't mention is that it probably requires an intimate knowledge of the destination so that, for instance, you don't materialize in a wall or whatever. If true, then you wouldn't create a portkey to go anywhere you had never been before, such as a field near the QWC. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 8 03:56:41 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2003 23:56:41 -0400 Subject: Susan Bones' Family WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: Minor Characters References: <6.15fa5930.2c5719e8@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F331F79.9020004@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76092 SnapesSlytherin at aol.com wrote: > In the 20 October 2002 Barnes and Noble chat: > > Question: There is a girl named Susan Bones who was sorted in the first book, > and there was a family called the Bones that Voldemort tried to destroy. Is > this a coincidence, or will Harry meet her in future books? > JRK: Susan Bones's grandparents were killed by Voldemort! > > Then, in OoP (US Version, page 550): > > There were relatives of their victims among the Hogwarts students, who now > found themselves the unwilling objects of a gruesome sort of reflected fame as > they walked the corridors: Susan Bones, who had an *uncle, aunt, and cousins* > who had all died at the hands of one of the ten, said miserably during > Herbology class that she now had a good idea what it felt like to be Harry." > (Emphasis my own.) > > What happened to her grandparents being killed? Did JRK change her mind? Is > the American edition wrong (as it so often is...)? I would think that JRK > would mention that Susan's grandparents were killed when she was listing other > relatives. If the uncle, aunt, and cousins were killed by one of the escaped DEs, and the grandparents were killed by Voldemort, there is no inconsistency. From KLMF at aol.com Fri Aug 8 16:53:50 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (klmf1) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 16:53:50 -0000 Subject: Cut the teens some slack! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76093 I keep reading all these posts that are highly critical of behavior and personalities in our cast of teenage characters.......To quote Dumbledore (Am.OoP, pg.826) "...Youth can not know how age thinks and feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be young..." It's amazing how maturity and life experience can change your outlook and perceptions. One of the things that kids find so appealing about these books is that they can relate to the characters specifically because they think and act as a kid would. GoF and OoP in particular really take me back to my early teen years--I don't find anything unusual or implausible in the range of behavior and emotion(or personality development, for that matter!) demonstrated in our young characters at all. To the contrary, I found myself sympathetic to all of them at one time or another (well, maybe not Malfoy...).....I was pretty irritated, in fact, that through the whole book Dumbledore would not look at or speak to Harry at all! I'd have been livid and probably even sulkier than Harry was! Perhaps the difference is that *I* might have gone looking for Dumbledore (assuming I wasn't intimidated by him!) whereas Harry would not, and either response is normal! Especially since I'm a girl and Harry is a boy! My most vivid memories and feelings of my youth (a long time ago.....) are from my early teens, IMO my most influential years, and if I need a reminder I need only consult the 6 or so years of diaries I kept during that time. Although I count myself as having been fairly stable and well-adjusted, I was pretty angsty. I can remember a number of kids' personalities that fit any of the students at Hogwarts, and can recall the same feelings and emotions myself. As a teacher, I see the same things going on with my students. Generally, teenage boys do tend to be secretive and withdrawn emotionally (or will lash out from time to time), are frequently clueless or otherwise shy about girls and communication is rarely their forte (some never master open communication). Teenage girls, on the other hand, often over-analyze every aspect of their social and love lives (some never outgrow that), even when they *don't* have major emotional upheavals to work through. Physical attraction is normal and expected in a teen of either sex. For some teens of either sex, going steady is their preference, for others it's playing the field. And I can certainly relate to Ginny coming out of her shell when she got over Harry.....I am expressly *not* shy (in case it wasn't obvious ;)) and always had male friends but there have been boys I'd been attracted to that would leave me at a loss for words if they spoke to me or even made eye contact! Frankly, that JKR can remember, never mind relate, the emotional and developmental rollercoaster of those years is impressive. Just a note here, too, about a possible R/H ship----It's entirely possible that their bickering is their subconscious way of warding off a more intimate relationship that neither is ready for....I don't know if JKR actually intends that, but it does sometimes happen ;) Karen F From acoteucla at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 17:11:08 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:11:08 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > I have always been under the impression > that Snape's stance of Sirius as the traitor would be merely along > the lines of "I told you he was a bad lot!" - ie because Snape > disliked Sirius anyway - but after the fact. You seem to be implying > that Snape had this idea before the fact and I'd be interested to > know where you got this idea from. Snape says something like this: "You should be thanking me on bended knee, Potter. If I hadn't come along now, you would have died just like your father: too arrogant to believe that Sirius had betrayed you!" That certainly sounds like Snape tried to convince James that Sirius was a spy, and that James refused to listen. From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 08:44:08 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:44:08 -0000 Subject: Grimauld Place Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76095 > > bboy_mn: > > > > I understand that the Godparent role is a religious thing. For > > us(Lutheran), it usually something that comes with Baptism; that's > > when Godparents are assigned. And it is extremely rare that a > > Godparent will ever have to assume their role; very rare indeed. > > > > But in the case where a Godparent does become the legal guardian, > does > > that give the Godchild any rights within the Godfamily? > > > > Does joining the Godfamily make you 'family'? All this talk of entitlements and inheritance goes to the next male in line, doesn't that apply only to nobility? And certainly none of the wizards in the Black family line seem to be members of the British Peerage. So, therefore, do the laws of inheritance then apply? If not, then Sirius could have left Grimauld Place and any and all of his funds to whomever he wished. That, if he did make out a will, would have been Harry. I think we need to get in touch with someone who understands the British Laws of inheritance. If there is anyone out there who understands all of that legal "mumbo jumbo" perhaps they could clear this up. Donna From greatelderone at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 17:31:22 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:31:22 -0000 Subject: Sinistra Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76096 Could Professor Sinistra the astronomy teacher be related to the Malfoys or to the Blacks since they are the only ones that have the habit of naming their members after stars(Bellatrix, Sirius, Regulus) and constellations( Andromeda, Draco) and the star Sinistra is a star in the Serpent Bearer constellation? From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 08:54:07 2003 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 08:54:07 -0000 Subject: Where are we headed in #6? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76097 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n_longbottom01" wrote: > The fourth book ended with Dumbledore doling out assignments for > various characters, which (happily) gave us an idea of where we might > be headed in the fifth. Is there anything this solid in OoP that > shows us what might be in store for us in the next book? > > Right now I don't have a specific passage to point to in OoP that > makes me say, "Aha, this means such and such is happening next!" But > I do have one hope and one fear about book six. > > The fear first: I'm afraid Harry is going to feel even more > alienated in book six, and he's going to try his best to distance > himself from everyone. Maybe it won't happen this way, but I'm > afraid we are going to see an even angrier Angry!Harry next time > around. Hopefully someone can snap him out of it before book 7 (I'm > pulling for Ginny to fill this role). > > Now the hope: I hope the Mystery/Action/Danger is more Hogwarts > centered in book 6. I hope Voldemort needs something from Hogwarts, > or something along those lines. It doesn't have to be a repeat of > the Sorcerer's Stone-as-quest-object, but I won't mind if it was > similar. If the mystery/action/danger is at Hogwarts, maybe it will > help take the edge off Harry's feeling that he is being left out of > the loop on everything important. Hi - this is my first post so I'd just like to start by saying how much I've enjoyed reading the posts on this list so far. If I could wade in here, I also think that in book six we will see Harry trying to distance himself from those around him who know and love him best. Already at the end of OoTP we see Harry pulling away from the people he loves when he uses the excuse of wanting to go see Hagrid to leave Ron and Hermione in the hospital wing and then uses the exact same excuse in reverse to leave Hagrid. Grieving over the death of a loved one can be an extremely isolating experience by itself and on top of that Harry also needs to deal with the fact that he is the only one in the entire wizarding world who can vanquish Voldemort (whatever that may mean). I think it will be only natural that in Book 6, we will see Harry dealing with feelings of extreme isolation from those around him (and isn't this a major theme of adolescence as well - especially around the age of 16?). I don't necessarily think we will see Angry!Harry but rather an evolution of that. The people that I think he will connect with most will be out of necessity those who he feels can understand some of what he is going through due to their own experiences. I think this will put some strain on the HRH relationship (as neither Hermione nor Ron are in positions to relate to him on these issues), while at the same time it may draw others closer to him (e.g. Luna and Neville ? who can both relate to death and loss). For this reason (and I don't like the thought of it at all), I think a major theme of the next book will actually be the relationship between the trio - perhaps with a R/H relationship putting a further strain on things. I've always thought that any relationship in the books would be driven by plot and this (although I'm a H/H shipper) is the only one that I can see between the trio that makes any sense to me plot wise at this point in time. On the second point you make, I'm wondering whether or not there is some pattern here we can analyse. We have seven books. Assuming that the seventh book will be the wrap up/ climax, may not the other six books in some way relfect each other? In other words, could we predict some of what will be happen in book six by looking at PoA? Both PS and GoF see Harry completing a series of trials or a quest to achieve his goal. CoS and OoTP both see Harry discovering important things about his connection with Voldemort. So perhaps an analysis of PoA will give us important clues as to what we can expect from book 6? Just a thought but I'd be interested in any theories (my apologies if this has already been discussed and for the length of this post). Sienna :) From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 09:01:32 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 09:01:32 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76098 bboy_mn: > The next question I must ponder given that James seems to have > inherited significant wealth, where is the Potter ancestral home? > > Enquiring minds want to know. I, for one, am certainly curious about James and his family. I think many of the questions will be answered if we find out more about him. I still think there is a familial connection between Harry and Tom Riddle via James' family. After all, we don't know the identity of the witch who was Riddle's mother. Could it be that Voldemort chose Harry over Neville because he knew the magical abilities in his own family? Donna From sarahlizzy at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 10:11:24 2003 From: sarahlizzy at hotmail.com (sarah_haining) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 10:11:24 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76099 Jennifer wrote: > > I inquire: > How do you know that you are ultimately doomed to the fate you > avoided by using the time-turner? I never saw any evidence of this > idea. > Jennifer Yup, I'm getting confuddled already :-) There's no evdidence of this idea probably becuase of the fact that there is no evidence of anyone using time-turners at all save Harry and Hermione - their example is the only evidence we have of people changing time in such a big way. I was simply deducing that since one of the two people who was supposed to die that night has managed to die prematurely, it is likely that all who are saved by changing time are living on a faster running clock. Am I making sense here? -Sarah From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Aug 8 11:18:51 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 06:18:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizard Genetics - Or fun with Mendel's peas.. References: Message-ID: <3F33871B.70006@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76100 meltowne wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > WW + Ww = 3/4 wizard children > > Out of 4 kids: > > 1 squib > > 3 wizards > > a correction: > > 1/2 WW Squibs > 1/2 Ww Wizards > > Ah, you are right. That's what I get for trying to chart it when I just walked in from 111 degree temperatures here in Texas. I was almost ready to add that maybe a gene connected with red hair carried a lethal gene, causing non-magical children to not be born due to not advancing beyond the 1st trimester and being reabsorbed or passed out unnoticed or something, to explain the Weasleys having all magical children. However, this would only make sense IF the squib relative of Ron's did not have red hair. If there are no red headed squibs, it might add something to this. However, the Weasley's might just also being beating the odds. Jazmyn From c.john at imperial.ac.uk Fri Aug 8 11:52:53 2003 From: c.john at imperial.ac.uk (esmith222002) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:52:53 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "John, C" wrote: > > Just a thought, but you don't suppose Voldemort's grandfather > could be - > > Marvolo Grindelwald! > > > > Might explain a few things; > > 1. Riddle's fear of Dumbledore > > 2. Where Riddle got all his information from > > My reply: I must say that is a good question, and to think we all > have to wait until book 7, and even then that question may not be > answered I know it will be, but it still makes you wonder. I > wouldn't doubt this one being true for anything, except one thing, > if he is, Tom (Voldemort) would have no way of knowing a true > account of his Grandfather's downfall given the fact that he was > raised in an orphanage. and his mother died, Lori OK, get ready for some serious speculation! I wondered if Grindelwald had disowned his daughter for dirtying his blood. He would want nothing to do with his half-blood grandson. However he may have kept an eye on his grandson at Hogwarts, and maybe warmed to Tom as his 'talent' became apparent. Maybe he then starts to influence Tom (a sort of Emperor-Annakin type thing), informing him about Slytherin etc (he had to learn it from someone). If my calculations are correct, then Riddle opened the chamber of secrets in 1943 (did Grindelwald help him?). Grindelwald was defeated in 1945 (Was Riddle secretly helping his grandfather? Did this start his obsession with immortality?). I could go on!!! From MadameZero at aol.com Fri Aug 8 12:09:00 2003 From: MadameZero at aol.com (Antbee78) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:09:00 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76102 >Buttercup wrote: > I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > is plausible. She goes from being pretty much > unnoticeable to being almost a female version of > Harry. In reality, which I know fiction is not, it > takes time for humans to change parts of their > personality they want to improve. And the > transformation is usually gradual and may take years. > I think it would be quite hard for a timid person to > all of a sudden be brassy. > > Obviously, JKR did this because of the role Ginny > would be playing in the last books, and she couldn't > do that with a wallpaper personality. Possibly, > Ginny's going to (a) play an important role in the > second war and/or (b) hook up with Harry, in which > case he needs a stronger partner, more like his mother > who wasn't afraid to stand up to his dad. > > Don't get me wrong. I like Ginny's improvement, but > it's just not authentic. > > Before OOTP when I read posts hoping that Harry and > Ginny would connect, I thought, "You gotta be kidding. > She's not right for him." But now I can absolutely see > them together and hope they do. She's very much like > his mother (red hair, fearless). AntBee responded: Actually most of the signs were there for Ginny's personality already. It's just her feelings for Harry are what kept her from being herself around him, most of the time, so now that she has given up on him she can be herself. In CoS, Ron does make it a point to tell Harry "know how weird it is for her to be ... shy"(Scholastic Paperback, CoS, p.40). This is because "she never shuts up normally (Scholastic Paperback, CoS, p. 40). So being like the Twins, being a rebellious firecracker, having secrets from her family, and being resourceful were all there for Ginny before, but since she never was herself around Harry, it took longer for him to notice. Here's a link to a good essay, on this subject that points everything out pre-OOtP, . Buttercup wrote: > I do have one problem with her though. She switches > boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then > Dean Thomas (Cho seems to do the same, floating from > boy to boy). By the time Harry and she get together, > she'll have dated every available boy at Hogwarts. > They're too young for this. AntBee responded: Well, she was with Michael Corner for a year or more. Also, it's not really clear on whether she is now dating Dean Thomas or not, she just says that she's chose him. It could mean that they are in fact dating now. Or it could mean that she's chosen him to like after her break-up with Michael, but so far her and Dean are only friends or acquaintances. Or my belief was that she just said she had chosen Dean because it was her way with messing with Ron, who was being too overprotective of her. I mean besides Harry, Dean was a good choice to show that no matter who she goes out with, that due to Ron being the overprotective brother, he would find fault with anyone. This is because Ron should know Dean is an okay time from the five years, they've spent sharing the same dorm room together. So I think she was just joking to get Ron riled up. -AntBee (Buzzing about.) From sydpad at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 17:52:26 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:52:26 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <000d01c35dc7$f46b65a0$0e01a8c0@ACTIONSTEEL.COM> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76103 > Buttercup's original message: > > >I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > >is plausible. She goes from being pretty much > >unnoticeable to being almost a female version of > >Harry. In reality, which I know fiction is not, it > >takes time for humans to change parts of their > >personality they want to improve. And the > >transformation is usually gradual and may take years. > >I think it would be quite hard for a timid person to > >all of a sudden be brassy. > Steve B replies: > > I agree that Ginny's personality has changed drastically, but I disagree > that it is unbelievable. First of all, we barely even see her in books 3 and > 4, so its been 3 years. Nobody's personality changes faster than a young > teenage girl. I agree with Steve. I'm not an expert on much, but I AM an expert on otherwise outgoing teenage girls who turn into dithering ninnies in the presence of their crush! I often cringed to think of what impression I must be leaving the Boy of My Dreams with. The best I could hope for would be Harry's (and consequently the readers') pre-OoP impression of Ginny: timid, uninteresting, and a bit odd. I don't think that was ever the 'real' Ginny. Having suffered from Crush-Induced Brain-Cloud syndrome, I badly wanted to see Ginny come into her own. I wish it hadn't been quite so abrupt-- it could have snuck up on Harry a bit more, maybe-- but, no, I don't have the slightest problem in seeing her character as consistent with a normal teenage girl age 11-14. Sydney From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 13:18:42 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:18:42 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76104 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darkkitten2" wrote: > jwpgh wrote: > > > Part of the problem here was that these 2 people just didn't know each other very well> *nod* > > Sirius and Harry were tied together by James and Lily's choices, not > their own. They're really _family_, with the involuntary connection that > family implies. For me this explains why Harry seems to have such a sudden affection > for Sirius. It's not that he knows much about Sirius at all, it's that he > trusts his parents, accepts Sirius as part of his family (something he is > desperately hungry for) and does his best to go from there, > > Molly is afraid for Harry and a little jealous. She acts as a parent figure > and protector for Harry and Sirius is now competing > for that position. > darkkitten Laura: *nods back* Yes, in deciding to accept Sirius, Harry was showing faith in his own parents, who chose to trust Sirius above everyone else they knew (including, it would seem, DD). It's the only way he has to show his love for them-Sirius and his status as Harry's parental figure are Lily and James' living bequest to Harry. By accepting Sirius, Harry accepts the love and protection of his parents. Sirius, of course, had already committed himself to Harry by accepting the role of godfather, and he took it seriously enough for it to keep him sane in Azkaban. I'd also like to point out, slightly off-topic, that the impulsive and sometimes dangerous behavior Sirius has been accused of don't seem evident in GoF. We see him as a recently-escaped prisoner in PoA who is being fueled by his long-frustrated rage at Peter. He has every reason to kill Peter the minute he sees him (in whatever form Peter takes), but he has enough self-control to stop himself at Harry's discretion. Then we see him in GoF, during which his advice to Harry is always reasonable and thougtful. Sirius acts in this book as a mature and loving parent, available for counsel and support. He discourages Harry from acting rashly and clearly has Harry's safety as his priority, even over his own. Then in OoP, Sirius veers back and forth between the two. That leads me to suggest that Sirius' moments of rashness are situational-when he has time and freedom to think and consider, he's just fine. When he's under severe emotional pressure, he begins to falter. Had he and Harry had a chance to live together under normal circumstances, I have no doubt that Sirius would have been a wonderful guardian. As for Molly, she needs to let go-with her own kids as well as with Harry. She didn't know James and Lily well and had no right to second-guess their decision. If DD and Remus trust Sirius, she should have too. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 13:20:44 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 13:20:44 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76105 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > is plausible. She goes from being pretty much unnoticeable to > being almost a female version of Harry. In reality, which I know > fiction is not, it takes time for humans to change parts of their > personality they want to improve. And the transformation is > usually gradual and may take years. I think it would be quite hard > for a timid person to all of a sudden be brassy. > Buttercup, You have to remember she is the younger sister of six big brothers, so she would probably be very outspoken and an intense tomboy since she was probably picked on somewhat as she grew up, and she has been at Hogwarts for 3 years. Plenty of time to change and grow up some. In my own opinion, I think she was always like this, she was only timid around Harry because she is, or was, quite smitten with him, and that was the only time we saw her interact with people, is with Harry and co.. She speaks to him now because she has gotten to know him and realized he is a real person and not the super being she had imagined him to be (like so many people idolize movie stars). Also since she has had passing boyfriends (normal for my 14 year old) she is much more secure around the object of her affection (Harry could learn from her, he was quite an idiot around Cho, tongue tied and panicy ). Severus > She switches boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of > only fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then Dean > Thomas, Cho seems to do the same, floating from boy to boy). By > the time Harry and she get together, she'll have dated every > available boy at Hogwarts. They're too young for this. As I stated above it seems very normal for a 14 year old to do this, affections are very fickle at this age, and it is not as if they are being sexually intimate (holding hands and a little mugging is about it) so switching boyfriends every 2 weeks is just fine and normal in my opinion. It takes quite a while to find the one who you want to be with for the duration, and I think Ginny still has a severe soft spot in her heart for Harry, as seen in the last few pages of OotP when, as she was curled up on the foot of Hermiones hospital bed, she giggles and hides her face in the covers after Harry speaks to her. Severus From maialaia at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 18:00:21 2003 From: maialaia at yahoo.com (The Entwife) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:00:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AtomBomb In-Reply-To: <20030808174323.97282.qmail@web10409.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030808180021.26348.qmail@web10405.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76106 Since places like Hogwarts and the Quidditch Cup Stadium are spelled to make muggles avoid them (and make muggle artifacts not work in them?) - if someone was say flying overhead and dropped an atom-bomb - would it go off? Would it fall crooked? What? ~Squee ===== ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ TolCon: A Tolkien Convention May 14-16, 2004 Seattle, Washington http://www.tolcon.org ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From betsymarie123 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 12:12:36 2003 From: betsymarie123 at hotmail.com (Betsy Corts) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 12:12:36 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76107 From: "sarah_haining" > >I was re-reading PoA recently and during Harry and Hermione's Time - >Turner shenanigans a thought occurred to me. I haven't been reading >the 'hints that Sirius would die' posts (still not over it:) so >forgive me if this has already been brought up. Anyhoo, we know that >it is against one of the strictest Wizarding laws to go back and >alter time - it simply should not be done unless under very >safe/strict circumstances. Harry and Hermione should not have by >rights been using it, thus, Sirius was destined to die. He was >supposed to die that night at the hands (sorry, mouth ;) of the >Dementors. The fact that he was saved by Harry simply meant that he >was essentially living on borrowed time; two years of it to be >precise. > >So, whilst I was congratulating myself on my linkage I realised - >who else was supposed to die that night? Who else was about to be >kissed? Harry. Harry is also living on time that, by rights, >shouldn't be his. Is his time also going to run out soon? > >I admit, in light of the prophecy this does get confusing. It could >be argued that Harry could not be killed by the Dementors or the >fact that Harry had the opportunity to save himself shows that the >circumsatnce just wont arise where he could be killed by anyone >other than Lord Thingy. I really don't want to get bogged down in >that too much as I think, in any case, this may just be a big, nasty >pointer as to whether Harry is going to survive the final showdown. >Someone tell me I wrong! > I found very interesting your Sirius' theory, but I'm not quite sure about Harry's. On PoA when Harry was about to be kissed by the Dementor he made his Patronus and it saved all of them. But when Harry and Hermione went back in time, Harry just wanted to be closer to the action to see what was the figure he saw. For that reason, I don't think Harry was meant to die that day. In the other hand, Sirius' theory it's very interesting. It made me wonder, can Harry (with Dumbledore's help, of course) go back in time and save Sirius??? Betsy From b_now_lives_for_christ at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 14:14:55 2003 From: b_now_lives_for_christ at yahoo.com (b_now_lives_for_christ) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:14:55 -0000 Subject: Spoiler: Possible error Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76108 Hey everyone. This might have already been posted on, but hey, thats life. I MIGHT have found an error in the books, and was wondering what the sotry is on this. In chapter 9 of CoS, Percy takes 5 points from Gryffindor for Ron giving him an attitude. He was only a prefect. In OotP, doesn't Draco try to take points from the Gryffindor group, but ron or someone says you can't take points, your only a prefect, and that's when we here about The Dolores clan. All the people that are in love with her and everything? lemme know what you think ... From swirskyr at rogers.com Fri Aug 8 14:21:24 2003 From: swirskyr at rogers.com (happyduck1979) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:21:24 -0000 Subject: Dudley's Demented Memories Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76109 I do not know if this has been discussed yet, but it occured to me last night while I was starting another reread of OOP. Harry has the same question himself, so I know I am in good company. What do you think it was that Dudley thought about when he was near the Dementor? What was it that scared this guy to the point of falling over and shaking and everything else he does in that scene? Also, ould whatever this nasty memory is be the basis for anything else? It might help explain the Dursleys are so anti-magic if they (or some of them) have more recent bad interactions with the wizarding world. Ok, back into my book I go. Rachel From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 18:07:30 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:07:30 -0000 Subject: Spoiler: Possible error In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "b_now_lives_for_christ" wrote: > Hey everyone. This might have already been posted on, but hey, thats life. > I MIGHT have found an error in the books, and was wondering what the sotry is on this. > > In chapter 9 of CoS, Percy takes 5 points from Gryffindor for Ron > giving him an attitude. He was only a prefect. > > In OotP, doesn't Draco try to take points from the Gryffindor group, but ron or someone says you can't take points, your only a prefect, and that's when we here about The Dolores clan. All the people that are in love with her and everything? > > lemme know what you think ... This has been discussed before. I saw several theories presented, but I can't remember them all. The one that made the most sense to me was that prefects can take point from their own houses, but not from the other houses. That would keep them from abusing the power. bibphile From tzakis1225 at netzero.com Fri Aug 8 14:35:07 2003 From: tzakis1225 at netzero.com (demetra1225) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:35:07 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience (was Why Bella didn't disapparate/ OOP Az. effects) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: snip > At the risk of becoming tedious, I'll note again that I believe > Dumbledore killed Sirius. See #66983 and thread. [I would modify > that original theory in that, at the time, I thought of how > Dumbledore had levitated Harry on past occasions, but (duh) > Dumbledore is shooting invisible ropes everywhere in the death > chamber. I've since concluded that Dumbledore immobilized Sirius so > that he couldn't duck Bella's second blast, and then guided stunned > Sirius gently through the veil. Pulling all the invisible strings so > suits Dumbledore's role as puppetmaster.] > > Back to the Sirius moment, even though Dumbledore does tough things, > I think he pays a very hard price. (See Valkyrievixen's post > #67288.) > snip The more I think about this, the more I agree with you (as an aside, if anyone hasn't read post #66983, I highly recommend checking it out). A thought (theory?) came to me this morning regarding Sirius' death. Perhaps Dumbledore didn't "kill" Sirius, maybe he volunteered. Here's why I think this is possible. I can recall Sirius on two occasions saying that sometimes one might have to die for the greater good. The first is in the Shreiking Shack incident in POA where he yells at Peter "THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE DIED...". Again, in OOTP, he says (to F&G, I think, sorry don't have the books with me) something along the lines of there are things that are worth dying for. What if Dumbledore went to Sirius and outlined the reasons why Sirius had to be removed from Harry's life. Based on his previous comments Sirius would recognize, maybe even welcome based on how miserable he is at GP, the virtue of sacrificing himself. To me, this is more in character with the Sirius from POA that I loved. He is, after all, from the "noble" Black family. What is more noble than laying down your own life so that the ultimate evil can be eliminated. OK, that's my theory. Please feel free to shoot holes in it. From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 18:13:46 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:13:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] AtomBomb References: <20030808180021.26348.qmail@web10405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76112 Squee: Since places like Hogwarts and the Quidditch Cup Stadium are spelled to make muggles avoid them (and make muggle artifacts not work in them?) - if someone was say flying overhead and dropped an atom-bomb - would it go off? Would it fall crooked? What? Dan: I think it would just not work. Remember that muggle technology doesn't work around Hogwarts. Perhaps at the Quidditch Stadium, there is enough magic to interfere with the nuclear bomb, disarming it. Besides, there are probably spells security wizards could use to break it. Then again, I'm not all that sure how atomic bombs function. Alas. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 8 14:36:01 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:36:01 -0000 Subject: And back to... How Old Are Snape//James/Lily & co? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76113 Buttercup asks: > > > > > > > > I must have misunderstood the interview, I thought she > > > > was referring to their ages in Book 1 as 35 or 36 > > > > years old, which would make them 40 or 41 in Book 5. > > > > Did she specifically say POA? Thanks! Does it change anything if I point out that in OotP (book 5) the Daily Prophet talks about "Lucius Malfoy, 41 years old". Lucius kept saying to others that he respected Snape. Does that mean that Severus was his mentor (older) or protege (younger)? From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 15:18:34 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:18:34 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76114 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ajlboston" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sarah_haining" > wrote: we know that > > it is against one of the strictest Wizarding laws to go back and > > alter time - it simply should not be done unless under very > > safe/strict circumstances. > > thus, Sirius was destined to die. He was > > supposed to die that night at the hands (sorry, mouth ;) of the > > Dementors. > > who else was supposed to die that night? Who else was about to be > > kissed? Harry. Harry is also living on time that, by rights, > > shouldn't be his. Is his time also going to run out soon? > > Well, if Buckbeak dies soon, then we could be worried. > > (Wasn't there a bad movie out about this concept this past year?) > > A.J. A.J. That movie was Final Destination and no Harry and Buckbeak are not living on borrowed time, the time shift was supposed to happen. What I am saying is Harry and Hermione use of the time shifter or whatever it is called, was suppossed to happen, and they are living as they were destined to. If you think that everything is prewritten by some all powerful deity, then once again the time shift was to happen also. If you are a believer of "we make our own destinies by the choices we make" then once again it comes to they are not living on borrowed time, because they chose to use the time shifter to save Harry, Buckbeak, and Sirius from the dementors and the executioner. Anyway you look at it, the next book hopefully will not be a bad spin on that horrid movie. Severus "I'm gothic, so I'm suppossed to act this way." Snape From two4menone4you88 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 15:21:56 2003 From: two4menone4you88 at aol.com (yairadubin) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:21:56 -0000 Subject: HQ for the order Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76115 Where was the HQ for the old ORDER OF TH PHOENIX? Are they going to relocate now that Sirius is dead, or did the owners of that place die? From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 14:31:12 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:31:12 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76116 "John, C" wrote: > Just a thought, but you don't suppose Voldemort's grandfather > could be - Marvolo Grindelwald! > > Might explain a few things; > 1. Riddle's fear of Dumbledore > 2. Where Riddle got all his information from Me: Isn't Marvolo Tom Riddle's middle name in CoS? Or is Marvolo a guessed name for Grindelwald? I never saw it in any of the books, or don't remember seeing it, that is. "Tom Marvolo Riddle" is "I am Lord Voldemort" just rearranged. Or is this just in the movie? Never mind, I'm lost. Now I have to finish SS quickly so I can start CoS sooner. Severus. From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 18:43:43 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:43:43 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > > > Me: Isn't Marvolo Tom Riddle's middle name in CoS? Or is Marvolo a > guessed name for Grindelwald? I never saw it in any of the books, > or don't remember seeing it, that is. "Tom Marvolo Riddle" is "I am > Lord Voldemort" just rearranged. Or is this just in the movie? > Never mind, I'm lost. Now I have to finish SS quickly so I can start > CoS sooner. > > Severus. Me: Marvolo is Tom Riddle's name. He tells HP in CoS that his mom gave him the name, after his grandfather, before she died. I think the point was that if Grindelwald's first name was Marvolo, then it would be a huge clue that he was LV's grandfather. Mhershey From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 18:42:33 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:42:33 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Grindelwald References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76118 "John, C" wrote: > Just a thought, but you don't suppose Voldemort's grandfather > could be - Marvolo Grindelwald! > > Might explain a few things; > 1. Riddle's fear of Dumbledore > 2. Where Riddle got all his information from Severus: Isn't Marvolo Tom Riddle's middle name in CoS? Or is Marvolo a guessed name for Grindelwald? I never saw it in any of the books, or don't remember seeing it, that is. "Tom Marvolo Riddle" is "I am Lord Voldemort" just rearranged. Or is this just in the movie? Never mind, I'm lost. Now I have to finish SS quickly so I can start CoS sooner. Dan: Yes, it is--it's also the name of his grandfather. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Pottymouth65 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 15:33:14 2003 From: Pottymouth65 at aol.com (Pottymouth65 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:33:14 EDT Subject: Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks Message-ID: <7a.4581d3ce.2c651cba@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76119 Shirley: >Where/when* did JKR say that Harry would not become an animagus in >the books?? That's news to me, although it wasn't something I >considered a necessary plot twist.? I just figured that, at some >point Harry might want to also become an animagus since his father >was.? And, if that's an inherited skill (who knows?), then it might >be easier for him to learn. Sue: Maybe I got it wrong, I read it in a post somehwere on some list a long long time ago, that JK had said this. Might have been a couple of years ago, in a discussion about PoA when we learn about James' ability. I hope someone on this list knows if JK actually did say that. Help! If she did not say that then I"ll just go plonk my head in a bucket of sand ducking all the tomatoes. I too remember awhile ago reading a transcript from an interview with Rowling where she stated Harry would not become an animagus too. I will go back through my files and try to find that quote. Traci _________________________________________________________________ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 8 18:47:17 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:47:17 -0000 Subject: Grimauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > > bboy_mn: > > > >> All this talk of entitlements and inheritance goes to the next male > in line, doesn't that apply only to nobility? And certainly none > of the wizards in the Black family line seem to be members of the > British Peerage. So, therefore, do the laws of inheritance then > apply? If not, then Sirius could have left Grimauld Place and any > and all of his funds to whomever he wished. That, if he did make > out a will, would have been Harry. > > I think we need to get in touch with someone who understands the > British Laws of inheritance. If there is anyone out there who > understands all of that legal "mumbo jumbo" perhaps they could > clear this up. > > Donna OK I'm not a lawyer - far too honest and clever for that. Heres what I know about English inheritance law - (Scottish law is a different thing altogther it should be noted)takes out small postage stamp, writes down entire knowledge... But seriously it goes a little bit like this: X dies. First question -did they leave a legally satisfactory will with appointed executors. If so this will go to the office of Probate who will check things out and generally approve in about 6 weeks. Once that is done, if there are more than one beneficiary and a straight share is indicated, then they can sort it out to their own agreement. Otherwise, legacies are paid out according to the will as specified and the residual estate (by which I mean money and property divided). No will? This is where it gets tricky. In cases of intestacy, its wise to hire a lawyer. Probate will still have to be granted before any distribution of the deceased's estate. The pecking order goes something like this: Spouse. Children (generally equal) Other relatives - in an order which I don't know. Godchildren? Unlikely to have any legal title against living blood relatives, unless they can prove some kind of wish on the part of the deceased. Okay, Rules of Primogeniture. Royalty - crown passes first to direct male heirs, then direct female heirs. In that order. Nobility - titles usually pass by male primogeniture. Estate transmission (by which I mean the stately home type thing) this varies because usually estates that go with titles such as, say, the Duke of Marlborough, are the grant of the crown. These will have been made by the Monarch of the time for (usually) outstanding service to the crown, wining lots of foreign battles and will have strings attached - usually that in default of male heirs, the whole title and property will revert to the crown. A good many titles were lost during the Wars of the Roses in 1455 - 1485 and were then "re-invented" as gifts to Tudor partisans for example. There is scarcely a title that can be now traced back to pre-1485. Some noble estates are permitted to descend through the female but by no means all. Thats about it. Feel free to put me right if I got anything wrong. June From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 18:55:08 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:55:08 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: Mhershey > Me: Marvolo is Tom Riddle's name. He tells HP in CoS that his mom > gave him the name, after his grandfather, before she died. I think > the point was that if Grindelwald's first name was Marvolo, then it > would be a huge clue that he was LV's grandfather. > Geoff: If I may make a slight correction to that- Tom Riddle tells Armando Dippet this in the scene where Harry is drawn into the diary. (p.182 my edition) From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 15:47:42 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:47:42 -0000 Subject: Snape favoring Slytherin (was Re: Harry in Snape's DADA?) In-Reply-To: <410-220038586517677@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76122 Wendy St John wrote: > But until I see some canon showing that he really *does* favour the Slytherins (by awarding gratuitous house points, or by grading unfairly in their favour), I refuse to believe that he actually *is* favouring them. I think this is one area in which he's not getting the credit he deserves for being - dare I say it? - fair. >>> Wendy, do you remember Snape removing points from Hermione for being a show off know it all? Or the time he removes points from Harry for having a library book outside of Hogwarts? Any time Harry or friends are caught defending themselves against a Slytherin, be it provoked or not Griffyndor always is the house to lose points. Even McGonagall seems to favor Slytherin in one punishment, she fines her own house 50 points per student and Malfoy only 20 points for the same infraction. Sounds to me that a structured fining system needs to instated so every house gets the same punishment no matter who catches them breaking the rules. And yes Harry has had his butt saved by DD on many occasions when Snape wanted to toss him out of Hogwarts. Severus "from evil" Snape From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 8 19:56:03 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:56:03 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape favoring Slytherin (was Re: Harry in Snape's DADA?) References: Message-ID: <3F340053.000001.51847@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 76123 Wendy St John wrote: > But until I see some canon showing that he really *does* favour the Slytherins (by awarding gratuitous house points, or by grading unfairly in their favour), I refuse to believe that he actually *is* favouring them. I think this is one area in which he's not getting the credit he deserves for being - dare I say it? - fair. >>> Severus "from evil" Snape Wendy, do you remember Snape removing points from Hermione for being a show off know it all? Or the time he removes points from Harry for having a library book outside of Hogwarts? Any time Harry or friends are caught defending themselves against a Slytherin, be it provoked or not Griffyndor always is the house to lose points. Me (K) - That's not Snape *favouring* Slytherin that's him *discriminating* against Gryffindor - actually to be more accurate that's him discriminating against the trio who haven't exactly gone out of their way to impress him what with the constant cheek and the breaking into his storeroom and such - not that I think they usually deserve what he does for them but he does have some good reasons for thinking the worst of them (after all while they may often have the best of intentions they *are* usually up to something). And as for taking the points away from hermione - she deserved it. She *was* being an insufferable little show off, if Hermione insists on always answering everything the others will just not bother trying, especially the Gryffindors. There is some insentive for the Slytherins to keep trying, after all they don't want Gryffindor to look good but the other Gryffs can simply say well Hermione's going to get it anyway why bother. K From Pottymouth65 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 16:23:35 2003 From: Pottymouth65 at aol.com (Pottymouth65 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:23:35 EDT Subject: No Animagus for Harry Message-ID: <183.1ee6b438.2c652887@aol.com> From: "Shirley" > >*Where/when* did JKR say that Harry would not become an animagus in >the books?? That's news to me, although it wasn't something I >considered a necessary plot twist.?>> Sue: >Maybe I got it wrong, I read it in a post somehwere on some list a long long time ago, that JK had said this. Might have been a couple of years ago, in a discussion about PoA when we learn about James' ability. I hope someone on this list knows if JK actually did say that. Help! If she did not say that then I"ll just go plonk my head in a bucket of sand ducking all the tomatoes.< ****************************************************************************** *Okey dokey, so at least I know I'm not losing my mind. I knew I'd read something about Harry and animagi somewhere. In an interview with Rowling, October 20, 1999 - Press Club's Sean Bowler interviews Rowling and asks an important question. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/1099-pressclubtransc.html SB: We're going to take a few more questions, and um, the next one is will Harry ever turn into a shape-changer like his father? JKR: Animagus. No, Harry's not in training to be an animagus, and if you've read book three, you won't know - um, that's a wizard that's very, very difficult to do. They learn to turn themselves into animals. No, Harry is not, Harry is going to be concentrated elsewhere, he's not going to have time to do that. He's got quite a full agenda coming up, poor boy. You probably read this same transcript Susan. Don't worry, you "didn't get it wrong..." Traci (please be kind to me - I'm a newbie to this) From newyorkcutie200 at aol.com Fri Aug 8 17:04:28 2003 From: newyorkcutie200 at aol.com (newyorkcutie200 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 13:04:28 EDT Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? Message-ID: <1df.eaeda43.2c65321c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76125 In a message dated 8/8/2003 12:14:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, stbinch at actionsd.com writes: > I do have one problem with her though. She switches > >boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > >fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then > >Dean Thomas (Cho seems to do the same, floating from > >boy to boy). By the time Harry and she get together, > >she'll have dated every available boy at Hogwarts. > >They're too young for this. My relpy: I have to disagree completly. Teens can change boyfriends very very fast. I think JKR was very well at portraying teen romances. "newyorkcutie200" From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 8 19:05:23 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 19:05:23 -0000 Subject: Where are we headed in #6? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n_longbottom01" > If I could wade in here, I also think that in book six we will see > Harry trying to distance himself from those around him who know and > love him best. I think that in book 6 we'll see him outgrowing the trio, rather than isolating himself from them, and becoming a leader. Harry's leadership qualities really begin to develop in book 5. Notice his reluctance and hesitance when the idea of the DA is brought out, but how he is completely in control of the club - including the twins :-) - when the club is finally discovered. Later on he is the clear leader within the group who goes to "rescue" Sirius, even if the other members may disagree with his decisions on certain points (esp. Neville) and propose alternatives. For Harry to confront Voldemort as an equal (as implied by the prophesy), he will have to develop beyond the small group of followers that he had in the first 4 books. We see the beginning of it with the DA, which grew around him despite the relentless campaign against him in the school and outside. Now that he is vindicated, I expect the DA (or something similar) to grow and evolve a lot more in the coming books. If Voldemort has the DE following him, we may well end up with Harry having the DA in a rather similar role. Harry may not be a prefect or head boy but will have a much more significant leadership role in the school and perhaps outside as well. Another reason that he will have to outgrow the trio (though I am sure they will remain very close) is that despite their loyalty, neither Hermione nor Ron have proven themselves as fighters. They have both been put out of action fairly quickly in the last book, and in the previous books they mostly contributed in the way of ideas and comradeship, but the action was mostly done by Harry (with the possible exception of book 1). Ron and Hermione will remain central to the plot, but in supporting roles, whereas others (esp. Neville) will take on more active roles in the eventual fight. > I think it will be > only natural that in Book 6, we will see Harry dealing with feelings > of extreme isolation from those around him (and isn't this a major > theme of adolescence as well - especially around the age of 16?). At 16 kids begin to outgrow that stage. Also it will be very much unlike Rawling's style to repeat the same theme in two books. Harry dealt with anger, isolation and ridicule in book 5. I expect that book 6 theme will focus on his reintegration into the wizard world as an adult (or almost-adult) level instead of the wonderkind role he's had up till now. That is already beginning with the final scene of book 5, where for the first time, the wizard world takes an active stand wrt Harry's treatment by his muggle relatives. This will nicely set the stage for the inevitable "final battle" in book 7. I can't see him going to fight LV when he is angry and isolated. He has to feel part of the world he is defending at that point. Salit From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 17:17:43 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:17:43 -0000 Subject: Snape DE/spy status (WAS Snape and Redemption) In-Reply-To: <3F339BFC.6010602@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76127 digger wrote: > This Snape DE status is really bugging me. > If we take it that Snape is the one "who has left me forever" > Voldemort's statement that "he will be killed" seems to imply that Snape should be on all DE's hit list. > > > > > Quote: > > "One too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever...he will be killed of course...and one who remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my service. > > How can Snape be the one who has left him forever, and "will be killed" and at the same time be *Lucius Malfoy's lapdog*? {{snip}} >>>> me (shirley): *Excellent* question!! I am not going to be much help, I'm afraid, as I am pasting a large part of my post from last week on this very thread, so I'm just adding to the confusion.... [last week's post 75667, (I think): Three thoughts/questions (and my apologies if these have been covered in previous posts; I only joined about a week ago): First, do we really *know* that it's Snape that LV is talking about in the circle of DEs toward the end of Book 4? I know that I figured that it was Snape who was lost forever (or however he worded it) as a Death Eater, but has that ever been confirmed? Second, and this may be trickier, since Snape was the only one who suspected Quirrel of being in league with LV in Book 1, is that how LV knows that Snape is no longer with him (LV)? Does he know it because he was sitting (for lack of a better way to word it) on the back of Quirrel's head the whole time, listening to Snape trying to prevent Quirrel from getting to the stone? Third, I always thought that Snape, the spy, was still showing up at LV's lair/hideout as himself - still a loyal DE - and using Occlumency to keep LV from seeing that he was a spy. However, (this thought struck me as I was typing the second point above) if LV knows that Snape is no longer on his side, then is Snape spying in another form (Animagus, invisibility cloak, something??), and what form is it? Whoa, I've just boggled my own mind! ;-) Does anyone have thoughts on this? -end last week's post- ] Shirley today (8-8-03): So, how can Snape possibly be the DE that LV referred to at the end of GoF if he's still alive and kicking, as well as spying? Does LV know, in fact, that Snape isn't loyal to him after the Quirrel experiences? In what manner is Snape spying; I'm not sure he *can* be a double-agent at this point? Ooooh, this hurts my head! Shirley From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 8 20:07:32 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 20:07:32 -0000 Subject: Tonks and Luna Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76128 Ok all you OOP experts. I have been pondering this all day. Dumbledore told Harry at the end of the book that he had been watching him much closer than he could imagine. Now, I wonder, since Tonks is a metamorphmagis, is it possible that she is Luna? I do not recall them ever being in the same room together at the MOM. Tonks has the type of personality to pull off Luna. And Luna has been at the school since Ginny has been so she could have been watching Harry from afar. Isn't it strange that when Harry needs closer watching Luna becomes a major character? Both girls are a little "out there". Just wondering how DD has been keeping such a close watch on Potter and the true purpose for Tonks to be a metamorphmagis. Susan From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 18:03:03 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:03:03 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76130 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sarah_haining" wrote: > Jennifer wrote: > > > > I inquire: > > How do you know that you are ultimately doomed to the fate you > > avoided by using the time-turner? I never saw any evidence of this > > idea. > > Jennifer > It is the pardox of time travel, that everyone is talking about here. If time is prewritten and everyone is just folowing along their predesigned pathways then Harry and Hermione were meant to save Harry, Sirius and Buckbeak by using the time turner, since it was predestined. Now if you subscribe to the thought that we choose our own destines and nothing is prewritten, then Harry and Hermione chose their own pathway and decided to save Harry, Buckbeak, and Sirius. In either situation, no one is living on borrowed time and death is not looking for the best opportunity to take them and set things right. See where I am coming from? If everything was predestined and they weren't supposed to use the time turner, then Harry and Sirius would be dead, because it wasn't written that Harry and Hermione used the time turner. Butt since they did then it must have been destined. Same goes for choosing our own destiny train of thought. Harry and Hermione chose to save them from certain death, by using the time turner. Severus "Am I really that bad?" Snape From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 8 20:22:10 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:22:10 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? References: Message-ID: <3F340672.000003.51847@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 76132 -Golly: Plus why on earth would F&G not want her to play Quidditch. They would need someone to play Chaser to Ron's keeper anyway. And it is a coed sport. They never had problems playing with the other girls. Me - None of the other girls are their little sister though. Doesn't matter how outgoing, boisterous, and grown up she is she's their little sister and they re going to want to look out for her. Doesn't matter how good she is at quidditch, it's still dangerous and they don't want her to get hurt. Like most older brothers, especially those with only one younger sister they are being overly protective of her and they will no doubt still see her as their little sister and in need of protection when she's 150 and white haired. K From magicroxx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 21:10:36 2003 From: magicroxx at yahoo.com (magicroxx) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:10:36 -0000 Subject: Tonks and Luna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Ok all you OOP experts. I have been pondering this all day. > Dumbledore told Harry at the end of the book that he had been > watching him much closer than he could imagine. Now, I wonder, since > Tonks is a metamorphmagis, is it possible that she is Luna? I do not > recall them ever being in the same room together at the MOM. Tonks > has the type of personality to pull off Luna. And Luna has been at > the school since Ginny has been so she could have been watching Harry > from afar. Isn't it strange that when Harry needs closer watching > Luna becomes a major character? Both girls are a little "out there". > Just wondering how DD has been keeping such a close watch on Potter > and the true purpose for Tonks to be a metamorphmagis. > Susan At the end of the battle at the MOM, Moody had crawled over to where Tonks lay unconsious and attempted to revive her, shortly after, Harry ran after bellatrix and passed Luna with Ginny, Ron and Hermione. So I don't think it is possible for an unconsious Tonks to get from one place to another that quickly. Of course there may be another explanation, I don't have the book with me to re-read. Roxx From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 21:12:43 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:12:43 -0000 Subject: Tonks and Luna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Ok all you OOP experts. I have been pondering this all day. > Dumbledore told Harry at the end of the book that he had been > watching him much closer than he could imagine. Now, I wonder, since > Tonks is a metamorphmagis, is it possible that she is Luna? I do not > recall them ever being in the same room together at the MOM. Tonks > has the type of personality to pull off Luna. And Luna has been at > the school since Ginny has been so she could have been watching Harry > from afar. Isn't it strange that when Harry needs closer watching > Luna becomes a major character? Both girls are a little "out there". > Just wondering how DD has been keeping such a close watch on Potter > and the true purpose for Tonks to be a metamorphmagis. > Susan I had the same idea back in post #69098 but in the same message I also pointed out that Tonks and Luna actually DO appear at the same time in the same scene (UK edition p 713-714). Nevertheless I still think it would have been a great plot if Luna and Tonks were one and the same! Inge From president0084 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 18:37:13 2003 From: president0084 at yahoo.com (president0084) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:37:13 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76135 If Sirius was on the run from the MOM so how did it come about that he inherited the house? Should it not have gone to the Malfoys as the next of kin? On a different topic as a Lutheran do you believe in Free Will. J.K. Rowling is from the UK were the majority are either Anglican or Church or England its been a while since I've studied the differences in religions but isn't predetermination a part of Martin Luther's philosophy (theology)? In the sixth book we are now confronted with a situation Free will V's Predetermination But at the end of GOF Dumbledore said we all have choices to make? But Harry has no Choice... Is the Prophecy there to mislead us? "president0084" From magicroxx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 21:18:23 2003 From: magicroxx at yahoo.com (magicroxx) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:18:23 -0000 Subject: Snape DE/spy status (WAS Snape and Redemption) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > digger wrote: > > This Snape DE status is really bugging me. > > If we take it that Snape is the one "who has left me forever" > > Voldemort's statement that "he will be killed" seems to imply > that Snape should be on all DE's hit list. > > > > > > > > Quote: > > > "One too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe > has left me forever...he will be killed of course...and one who > remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my > service. > > > > How can Snape be the one who has left him forever, and "will be > killed" and at the same time be *Lucius Malfoy's lapdog*? > {{snip}} >>>> > > > me (shirley): *Excellent* question!! I am not going to be much > help, I'm afraid, as I am pasting a large part of my post from last > week on this very thread, so I'm just adding to the confusion.... > > [last week's post 75667, (I think): > Three thoughts/questions (and my apologies if these have been covered > in previous posts; I only joined about a week ago): > > First, do we really *know* that it's Snape that LV is talking about > in the circle of DEs toward the end of Book 4? I know that I figured > that it was Snape who was lost forever (or however he worded it) as a > Death Eater, but has that ever been confirmed? > > Second, and this may be trickier, since Snape was the only one who > suspected Quirrel of being in league with LV in Book 1, is that how > LV knows that Snape is no longer with him (LV)? Does he know it > because he was sitting (for lack of a better way to word it) on the > back of Quirrel's head the whole time, listening to Snape trying to > prevent Quirrel from getting to the stone? > > Third, I always thought that Snape, the spy, was still showing up at > LV's lair/hideout as himself - still a loyal DE - and using > Occlumency to keep LV from seeing that he was a spy. However, (this > thought struck me as I was typing the second point above) if LV knows > that Snape is no longer on his side, then is Snape spying in another > form (Animagus, invisibility cloak, something??), and what form is > it? Whoa, I've just boggled my own mind! ;-) Does anyone have > thoughts on this? -end last week's post- ] > > Shirley today (8-8-03): > So, how can Snape possibly be the DE that LV referred to at the end > of GoF if he's still alive and kicking, as well as spying? Does LV > know, in fact, that Snape isn't loyal to him after the Quirrel > experiences? In what manner is Snape spying; I'm not sure he *can* > be a double-agent at this point? Ooooh, this hurts my head! > > Shirley I always thought that LV was talking about the three death eaters that we know were not at the reunion ceremony. Karkaroff, Crouch and Snape. Crouch we know had entered back into his service, Karkaroff fled in fear, so I always thought Snape was the coward. I always thought was the one who was too cowardly to return, I am assuming that when he DID return to LV, he was probably tortured with the Cruciatis curse. Unless this has been disproven? Roxx From president0084 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 18:44:50 2003 From: president0084 at yahoo.com (president0084) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 18:44:50 -0000 Subject: Clothes under robes, kilts (was Re: Snape's nationality and worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76137 Frankie wrote: > For the most part, people in the books seem to wear clothes under their school robes. THEREFORE, in order for him to be flipped upside down and wind up with his pants on display, I submit that Snape is the offspring of an obscure Scottish clan and was forced to wear a kilt to school. > Or maybe his mother was Scottish and packed him off to Hogwarts > in her family's tartan. Either way. >> Karen F: > I get the general impression that the older generations often > didn't/don't wear trousers under their robes. I recall the scene in GoF at the QWW on the campground where HRH are in a line waiting > for water and they hear a fellow named "Archie" refusing to replace his muggle woman's nightgown with trousers because he "likes a healthy breeze around my privates". Maybe it's just lucky for Snape that he was even wearing underwear! >> Garrett: > That could be, but remember who would have been at that game and where they had just walked through, IRISH LAND and what do they like to wear? Kilts. >> Irish don't wear kilts, that's Scottish. Where Hogwarts is. Wearing clothes under the robes seems to come about from the film, not the book. If they wear normal clothes under the robes, why bother at all with the robes? Secondly on the train, why would Hermione leave when the boys change into their robes if they are only putting them on over their normal clothes? "president0084" From cherlouize at aol.com Fri Aug 8 20:42:37 2003 From: cherlouize at aol.com (Kim) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 20:42:37 -0000 Subject: Where are we headed in #6? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76138 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n_longbottom01" wrote: > I do have one hope and one fear about book six. > > The fear first: I'm afraid Harry is going to feel even more > alienated in book six, and he's going to try his best to distance > himself from everyone. Maybe it won't happen this way, but I'm > afraid we are going to see an even angrier Angry!Harry next time > around. Hello, I agree that Harry is likely to become more withdrawn and angry in #6. At the end of OoP, I immediately thought of Dumbledore telling Harry (don't have quote handy, I'm sorry) that one of Voldemort's great talents was his ability to sow dissent and pull people apart. I think that V-mort will certainly try to use Harry's anger and isolation to his advantage. My fear is that we will see HRH part ways. I think that would weaken Harry immeasurably, as they are the closest thing to family he has had. Pax, Kim From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 20:42:46 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 20:42:46 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Severus ("severusbook4") wrote: > > As I stated above it seems very normal for a 14 year old to do this, affections are very fickle at this age, and it is not as if they are being sexually intimate (holding hands and a little mugging is about it) so switching boyfriends every 2 weeks is just fine and normal in my opinion. > > Feetmadeofclay: > Excuse me but what planet are you living on? That may be Hogwarts or the Wizarding world, but by 14 MANY of the girls I knew were in the full throes of sexual activity. This may be disturbing and it may be recent. But it is what is happening. Of course it differs widely. Some at 18 still haven't been kissed and some have had a dozen sexual partners by the time they leave high school. > > Afterall 14 year old girls can't get pregnant without having sex! >>> I was not implying that 14 year old girls are not having sex in the real world, some are and some are not, there is no absolute (I know my 14 year old isn't, thank god). I was saying in the potterverse they aren't engaging in sex. Now if I am incorrect in the assumption, then please, show me where it is in any of the books. Severus From esaulgd at cantv.net Fri Aug 8 21:28:57 2003 From: esaulgd at cantv.net (Nintendo) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:28:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? References: Message-ID: <00b101c35df4$15587d30$a2c654c8@SAUL> No: HPFGUIDX 76140 "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Ginny doesn't seem too > ramped up to see her boyfriend after time apart. (Partly this is > evocative and partly just unrealistic) What makes you think Ginny was already Corner's girlfriend by then? As far as we know, Ginny still fancied Harry in GoF, at least up to the Yule Ball. I don't think she'd go into a date-fest immediately. It is much more believable that they started dating after the beginning of their 4th year (maybe they didn't even know each other before that). > Still I would have liked ot have seen her go through some pain after > her break up. Getting over him quickly isn't that hard if she isn't > that in love with him. But still she's be at least in a funk for bit. Remember everything on the books is Harry's POV. She probably went through all this, but Harry certainly wasn't in the mood to notice. Besides, if she managed to hide the relationship, she probably managed to hide her pain after the breakup as well. She probably confides this kinds of stuff to Hermione or other girls of her year, not lets it out in public. > What I dislike most is that Ginny hid the relationship from her > brothers and MOST IMPORTANTLY Harry! A proud girl who has been > denied the dignity of having her crush either return the feelings or > at least not know them, would want to reclaim said dignity. Ginny? Ginny Weasley?? Forgive me, but I don't see Ginny standing up to Harry and saying "So you don't like me, well, I don't like you either! HA!". > So after deciding that Michael was a sure bet, Ginny would make it > very clear to both her brothers and Harry that she was dating > someone. Just why? Let's remember Ginny can be a bit shy when it comes to things of the heart. I don't think she'd brag about it or even gave a nickel over "lost pride". Besides, who's to say she's COMPLETELY over her feelings for Harry? She's probably a little doubtful on how to handle it. > Ginny surely would rather be teased about having a real boyfriend > than teased about having a hopeless crush on her brother's best > friend/Gryff's Quidditch star/The Boy Who Won't Die. First, I don't think Ginny was EVER teased by her brothers because of her feelings towards Harry. In fact, Ron is quite happy about her crush, since during the time she fancies Harry she won't be dating anyone and therefore will be "safe". Keeping it secret probably has a lot more to do with her brothers being as overprotective as they are. It wasn't a secret to everyone: Hermione knew. > In short we should have known in GOF. At the very least we > should have seen in GoF something like "Harry noticed Hermione > chatting with Ginny before a boy Harry didn't recognize lead Ginny > away and Hermione ........" Then again, Ginny probably wasn't dating anyone in GoF. > No girl in her situation would > want or need to keep Michael a secret. And Rowling shows this by > having Hermione just inform the gang (and us). These kinds of situations are pretty complex. It's quite likely that Ginny didn't decide to make it a secret consciously. She didn't know how to break the news or was afraid of the reactions of Harry/the Weasleys so she just put off telling them. It's also likely that Hermione understood all of this, and decided it would be better for everyone if she seized the opportunity and told everyone. Remember her line: "This is exactly why she never tells this to you, Ron" Rowling is clearly justifying Ginny's secrecy. -- Nintendo Proud Alumni of ~ Ravenclaw ~ (a.k.a. Gryffindors' Dating Service) From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Aug 8 21:46:52 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:46:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and Redemption (was: JKR's best interview) Message-ID: <128.2f693602.2c65744c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76141 In a message dated 8/6/2003 12:29:38 PM Pacific Daylight Time, shirley2allie at hotmail.com writes: > Third, I always thought that Snape, the spy, was still showing up at > LV's lair/hideout as himself - still a loyal DE - and using > Occlumency to keep LV from seeing that he was a spy. However, (this > thought struck me as I was typing the second point above) if LV knows > that Snape is no longer on his side, then is Snape spying in another > form (Animagus, invisibility cloak, something??), and what form is > it? Whoa, I've just boggled my own mind! ;-) Does anyone have > thoughts on this? Remember Sirius' snide remark about Snape being "Lucious' lapdog"? And how Umbridge says that Lucius always speaks highly of him? Suppose Snape is using Legilimency to "spy" on Voldemort through Lucius. That is, each time he visits/sees Lucius, he draws out his memories of recent DE activity... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Fri Aug 8 21:50:29 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 17:50:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA Message-ID: <00B517CE.73A413D7.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76142 In a message dated 8/8/2003 11:01:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, A.J. writes: > Well, if Buckbeak dies soon, then we could be worried. > > (Wasn't there a bad movie out about this concept this past > year?) Hermione would also have to do terribly in the class she used the Time-Turner to take -- showing that she was never meant to have that knowledge in the first place. :) Brief Chronicles From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 21:51:03 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:51:03 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?FILK:__It=92s_a_Real_Flint?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76143 FILK: It's a Real Flint Based on "It's a Small World" by Richard M. Sherman and Robert B. Sherman Hear the original here: http://www.niehs.nih.gov/kids/lyrics/smworld.htm dedicated to Lexicon Steve, who taught me the origin of the term "Flint" (I had tried looking it up in the dictionary ;-) It's a world of laughter A world of tears It's a world of hopes And a world of fears There's so much that we share That it's time we're aware What's a real Flint after all There is Marcus Flint Who was in Book Three Book Two was the last Time we should have seen Though Jo tried to explain He did a year again It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real, true Flint Harry sees his Mum And Diggory die But he doesn't see Thestrals when they fly Though Jo tried to explain He had to feel the pain It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real, true Flint Ronald's prefect badge Is scarlet and gold But Percy's was silver As Book One told Since Harry's mind retains Both pins looking the same It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real Flint after all It's a real, true Flint When Hagrid told us He flew to the rock We said "A Flint!" "A wizard he is not!" But now there are thestrals Who come to the rescue It's a false Flint after all It's a false Flint after all It's a false Flint after all It's a false Flint after all It's a false, non-Flint ~Phyllis From pegruppel at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 22:02:22 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:02:22 -0000 Subject: Cut the teens some slack! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > I keep reading all these posts that are highly critical of behavior > and personalities in our cast of teenage characters.......To quote > Dumbledore (Am.OoP, pg.826) "...Youth can not know how age thinks and > feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be > young..." > Peg: Thank you, Karen. The young people we're reading about are acting just like what they are--young people. Teenagers. I'm only surprised that they're as manageable as they are. I think JKR has seen enough teenagers in action (she's been a teacher, after all) to know how they're going to behave. More importantly, she remembers how it *feels.* I also remember being that young, and I'd never be that age again for *any* reason whatsoever. Once was quite enough. And just to illustrate the kind of changes that they go through, I'll have to quote my mother, an English teacher for 35 years at a small high school (U.S.). She got every kid in the community--the ones from divorces, abusive households, "normal" households, etc. Being from a small town, she knew the kids' families and what was going on with them. She never took "acting out" too personally. That doesn't mean she put up with it, only that she didn't let it get under her skin. Years later, some of the worst of the bad actors meet her in the grocery store or somewhere else, and say something like "I was pretty awful, wasn't I?" She usually responds with something to the effect of "I knew what was going on in your life, so I didn't worry about it." They outgrow this stuff. Right now, Harry is going through changes that makes my Mom's students' problems look minor. Orphaned, emotionally abused, apparently abandoned by Dumbledore, threatened with expulsion from the one place he calls home, physically assaulted by a teacher (Umbridge and that quill), attacked by dementors, adult wizards and LV, burdened with the knowledge that he is living in a "destroy or be destroyed" situation. Heck, I'm surprised the kid hasn't tried to feed himself to the giant squid. Except the squid is probably smart enough (hey, it's a magical squid!) not to let him do it. I enjoyed OotP, and I'm looking forward to the next installment. Peg From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 22:16:24 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:16:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups]Chapter 3, the Advance Guard/Superflurous In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030808221624.63598.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76145 "Ali" wrote: > >> > > (Q 12) Much of this chapter could be viewed as > superfluous > > narrative. Is this a chapter which a more rigorous > editor would have > > stripped down to a few lines? Has JKR's success > actually meant that > > her editors are now reluctant to offer advice and > guidance which > > might have lead to the OoP being a shorter and > punchy book? > Kneasy wrote: > Her editors are probably scared stiff of cutting > *anything*. She > hasn't confided plot details or development to them; > they were > probably so damn grateful to finally receive the > manuscript that > they would have printed a bus ticket used as a page > marker, had > one been there. Buttercup: I agree that the editors don't know the plots for the last two books. They have no idea if something is significant or not, so their hands are pretty much tied. They have to take the books as they are and be grateful, which they should be since I'm sure it's made the publishers more successful and richer than they ever imagined. Who are we to say what's unnecessary? Maybe after Book 7 we'll have the right to judge. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 22:18:36 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:18:36 -0000 Subject: Clothes under robes, kilts (was Re: Snape's nationality and worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76146 Wearing clothes under the robes seems to come about from the film, not > the book. If they wear normal clothes under the robes, why bother at > all with the robes? Secondly on the train, why would Hermione leave > when the boys change into their robes if they are only putting them on > over their normal clothes? > > "president0084" I think the adding of clothing in the movies was possibly about the pressure to separate Harry Potter from the "Evil Satanic Folk" that still renders criticism of the books today. Going naked, or with as little clothing as possible, under the robe is a tradition synonymous with magic practice. While J.K.R doesn't go into what wizards might have been doing in the ancient times, if they were perhaps a bit more into ritual, then not wearing much or anything at all would have simply been a custom, tradition, etc, that carried into the latter centuries. ^v^ Blyx ^v^ From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 22:20:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:20:25 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > > "John, C" wrote: > > Just a thought, but you don't suppose Voldemort's grandfather > > could be - Marvolo Grindelwald! > > > > Might explain a few things; > > 1. Riddle's fear of Dumbledore > > 2. Where Riddle got all his information from > > Me: Isn't Marvolo Tom Riddle's middle name in CoS? Or is Marvolo a > guessed name for Grindelwald? ...edited... > > Severus. bboy_mn: I don't think John C. (who may freely speak for himself) was intending to imply that the name Marvolo Grindelwald was an absolute fact, but as a shorthand was to illustrate that there could be some connenction between Voldemort/Riddle/Grindelwald. In fact, if there is a connection, it is unlikely to be on the Riddle side of the family since Riddle was a muggle. It would, therefore, most likely be on Riddle's mothers side of the family; she was a witch. Even given that John's use of 'Marvolo' while not techincally accurate still nicely illustrates his point that there could be a family connection between Tom Marvolo Riddle and Grindelwald. For reference, since someone else where in this thread asked. Tom Marvolo Riddle's fathers name was Tom Riddle, and his grandfather's name was Marvolo Riddle. Just a thought bboy_mn From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Aug 8 22:28:25 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:28:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? Message-ID: <157.22be46ae.2c657e09@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76148 In a message dated 8/6/2003 8:11:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, cathio2002 at yahoo.com writes: > must have misunderstood the interview, I thought she > was referring to their ages in Book 1 as 35 or 36 > years old, which would make them 40 or 41 in Book 5. > Did she specifically say POA? Thanks! > The interview took place just around the publication of GoF, IIRC, so it would be logical to think that she was referring to his (specifically, the response dealt with Snape) age at that point in the storyline. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 22:30:02 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:30:02 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry WAS Re: Tonks In-Reply-To: <7a.4581d3ce.2c651cba@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76149 > I too remember awhile ago reading a transcript from an interview with Rowling > where she stated Harry would not become an animagus too. I will go back > through my files and try to find that quote. > > Traci > That would be a wonderful compilation for someone to put together someday ... (it doesn't have to be you, Traci!) But as a suggestion-- Maybe if on this site we could have a quick list of everything J.K has said re: actual things going to happen in all of the books...Some of the interviews are very tedious to read through looking for a one liner about what will happen in a later book. Of course if this already exists, please beat me and point me in the right direction....including the entire contents of that little card of hints the man bought at auction-- was there ever a thread comparing the hints to OoP? Were the entire contents ever released, because I cannot seem to find them online anywhere? ^v^Blyx^v^ From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 22:32:51 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 15:32:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030808223251.96784.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76150 --- feetmadeofclay wrote: > GOLLY: I think that it depends on how involved she > was with Michael. > I suspect he was cute and he liked her and she > wanted to get over > Harry and he was as good as anything. She liked > being admired. But > she doesn't even see him on the train (or at least > not for long). > The first thing Percy does after spending all summer > writing to Penny > is go and see her. He's excited and anxious. Ginny > doesn't seem too > ramped up to see her boyfriend after time apart. > (Partly this is > evocative and partly just unrealistic) That's interesting. I hadn't really thought to compare it to Percy. Percy/Penny was definitely a far more emotionally involved relationship. > The less involved you are emotionally, the easier it > is to break up. > Still I would have liked ot have seen her go through > some pain after > her break up. Getting over him quickly isn't that > hard if she isn't > that in love with him. But still she's be at least > in a funk for bit. Why? She dumped him, right? I mean she dumped him because he was a brat about the quiddich match. Obviously no deep emotions running there. > What I dislike most is that Ginny hid the > relationship from her > brothers and MOST IMPORTANTLY Harry! A proud girl > who has been > denied the dignity of having her crush either return > the feelings or > at least not know them, would want to reclaim said > dignity. (NOt > that I am bashing Ginny. I just think liking Harry > and having him not > like her back would have wounded her pride like any > girl's). > No. She didn't hide her relationship. Percy hid his relationship. Hermione knew. Ron and Harry just weren't paying attention. It never occured to Ron (or F&G, for my opinion) that Ginny could be a desireable prospect as a girlfriend. She didn't tell them (but who would with Fred and George for brothers?) but she didn't hide anything. > So after deciding that Michael was a sure bet, Ginny > would make it > very clear to both her brothers and Harry that she > was dating > someone. And Hogwarts is not a big school. Michael > is in F&G's > grade - word gets around. Neither would have any > reason to keep it a > secret. Whoa! I don't think Ginny just picked a "sure bet" and went out with him to make anyone jealous. She liked him. She went out with him. When didn't like him anymore (ie, he annoyed her about the quiddich) she broke up with him. This relationship was not about Harry or her brothers. She liked a guy - that's all. And I believe Michael was in Harry's year, not Fred's. He was haging with Terry Boot anyway, who I know is in Harry's year. > In short we should have known in GOF. No girl in > her situation would > want or need to keep Michael a secret. And Rowling > shows this by > having Hermione just inform the gang (and us). At > the very least we > should have seen in GoF something like "Harry > noticed Hermione > chatting with Ginny before a boy Harry didn't > recognize lead Ginny > away and Hermione ........" > > Something anything... > > > > Golly > > I disagree. She wasn't keeping the relationship secret. If she had been, she'd have been mad at Hermione for breaking her trust. It's not that she kept is a secret, it just that Ron and Harry didn't know. Hermione mentioned it off-handedly. On page 349 (U.S. - last page of "In the Hog's Head" Hermione said that Ginny thought Ron would take it badly, and that's why she didn't tell Ron. She didn't want him hassling her or her boyfriend. I'm not sure if we have solid proof F&G didn't know. Though I don't think they did, because they'd have been very vocal. But when the gossip would have been going around (when they first started dating) Fred and George were a little preoccupied with trying to get their money out of Bagman. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 22:39:09 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:39:09 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808223251.96784.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76151 > But when the gossip would have been going around (when > they first started dating) Fred and George were a > little preoccupied with trying to get their money out > of Bagman. > Rebecca And maybe we're also overlooking something (I can't seem to find any canon of this).... but that Ginny REALLY didn't want her mother finding out-- or her father-- how serious she was or wasn't and with whom. I can't imagine being the youngest child-- PLUS the only daughter-- of already over protective parents. It is amazing she made it out of the house without a chastity belt on... ^v^Blyx^v^ From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 8 22:43:18 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:43:18 -0000 Subject: Clothes under robes, kilts (was Re: Snape's nationality and worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76152 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepingblyx" wrote: > Wearing clothes under the robes seems to come about from the film, > not > > the book. If they wear normal clothes under the robes, why bother > at > > all with the robes? Secondly on the train, why would Hermione > leave > > when the boys change into their robes if they are only putting > them on > > over their normal clothes? > > > > "president0084" > > I think the adding of clothing in the movies was possibly about the > pressure to separate Harry Potter from the "Evil Satanic Folk" > that still renders criticism of the books today. > Not wearing anything under robes is not a "witchy" thing it's a historic thing. People didn't wear trousers under robes because they weren't invented in the societies where people wore robes. There weren't a lot of underpants around for that matter either. The robes are early mediaeval in style. That means a breechclout for men and women, a shift for ladies and an undertunic for men. Thats it with regard to underwear. Yes there were trousers in the early mediaeval period, as worn in Scotland. Trousers were also worn by the Gauls during Roman Times. But the Romans also wore nothing under their togas and tunics. (They presumably also liked a bit of a breeze around their privates...) June "It is a comfort in wretchedness To have companions in woe." Christopher Marlowe, Dr Faustus > Going naked, or with as little clothing as possible, under the robe > is a tradition synonymous with magic practice. While J.K.R doesn't > go into what wizards might have been doing in the ancient times, if > they were perhaps a bit more into ritual, then not wearing much or > anything at all would have simply been a custom, tradition, etc, > that carried into the latter centuries. > > ^v^ Blyx ^v^ From sydenmill at msn.com Fri Aug 8 22:48:20 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:48:20 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76153 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Tom Marvolo Riddle's fathers name was Tom Riddle, and his > grandfather's name was Marvolo Riddle. > > Just a thought > > bboy_mn The "Marvolo" could have been Voldemort's maternal grandfather's first or last name. . . Bohcoo From ratalman at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 23:02:07 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:02:07 -0000 Subject: Grindelwald In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76154 > OK, get ready for some serious speculation! I wondered if Grindelwald > had disowned his daughter for dirtying his blood. He would want > nothing to do with his half-blood grandson. However he may have kept > an eye on his grandson at Hogwarts, and maybe warmed to Tom as > his 'talent' became apparent. Maybe he then starts to influence Tom > (a sort of Emperor-Annakin type thing), informing him about Slytherin > etc (he had to learn it from someone). If my calculations are > correct, then Riddle opened the chamber of secrets in 1943 (did > Grindelwald help him?). Grindelwald was defeated in 1945 (Was Riddle > secretly helping his grandfather? Did this start his obsession with > immortality?). I could go on!!! What has always been a sticky point for me is the fact that Tom Riddle's mother chose to consort with a Muggle in the first place. After all, she was one of the last (if not "the" last, before the birth of her son, Tom) descendants of Salazar Slytherin. What's she doing falling for a Muggle? I like the idea that Grindelwald = Marvolo. And that Marvolo spurned Tom's mother because of the mudblood issue. That does make sense. But that still takes me back to the same point: what was she doing falling for a Muggle? And a pretty rotten one too, by all accounts. I've been wondering whether Tom's mother may have herself been trying to prevent a (heretofore unnamed) prophesy from unfolding that pertained to her future offspring. Maybe she feared precisely the destiny that her son now faces. Maybe it was foretold that her child would bring about the destruction of the world. And she attemped to thwart that destiny by turning away from the wizarding world. Robyn From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 23:05:37 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030808230537.9502.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76155 --- sleepingblyx wrote: > > > But when the gossip would have been going around > (when > > they first started dating) Fred and George were a > > little preoccupied with trying to get their money > out > > of Bagman. > > Rebecca > > > And maybe we're also overlooking something (I can't > seem to find any > canon of this).... but that Ginny REALLY didn't want > her mother > finding out-- or her father-- how serious she was or > wasn't and with > whom. I can't imagine being the youngest child-- > PLUS the only > daughter-- of already over protective parents. It is > amazing she > made it out of the house without a chastity belt > on... > > ^v^Blyx^v^ I disagree. We've never seen any indication that Molly and Arthur have a problem with their children dating. Molly even told her kid about sneaking out till three in the morning. Besides, Ginny said she didn't want Ron to know. She never said a word about her parents. I mean, Molly was giggling with Hermione about love potions, she's not going to freak out because her daughter (who is a perfectly acceptable age) has boyfriend that she's not even serious about. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 23:30:36 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:30:36 -0000 Subject: Portkeys - Curses foiled again In-Reply-To: <3F331ED8.3000702@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Steve wrote: > > > > My conclusion is that they aren't used because the charm is too > > difficult and dangerous for the average wizard. It requires a > > powerful wizard with specialized training. > T.M. Sommers > > One factor you didn't mention is that it probably requires an > intimate knowledge of the destination so that, for instance, you > don't materialize in a wall or whatever. If true, then you > wouldn't create a portkey to go anywhere you had never been > before, such as a field near the QWC. bboy_mn: I have a theory in this area of magical travel. Much like Star Trek Transporter teleportation, I think, with in reasonable limits, magic has a certain safeguard built in that prevent you from materializing inside solid objects. Even if you are familiar with a location, you might not have an exact mental image of the exact placement of every tree, rock, and piece of furniture. For these types of things to be precisely accounted for would be nearly impossible. We have one example of this when Fred and George apparate into Harry and Ron's bedroom and apparate onto Ron's bed/knees instead of the middle of the room. They were off target but at the sametime, they landed ON the bed; the bed wasn't cutting them off at the knees, and their physical forms weren't merged with Ron's. While I don't have any solid proof, I take this example, and a general Sci-Fi common sense to reach the confident conclusion that there is indeed some built-in but limited protection against arriving at a destination via magical means and finding yourself halfway through a solid wall or cut off at the waist by a kitchen table. Oddly, I don't think that invalidates your point, there are dangers in Apparating and Portkey travel. This seems a very reasonable conclusion, and you could very well injure yourself if you get it wrong. That's part of the reason, I think that Portkey creation is both difficult AND dangerous. As far as intimate knowledge of the destination, I haven't completely resolved my feelings on that. True, you do have to know where you are going, but I wonder if you are limited to places you've been, or places you can see (for short trips)? If I want to be in a small field hidden from view just out side the town of Working, Surrey, or perhaps down a dark alley inside that city; having never been there, is that general knowledge and intent sufficient to produce the intended result? I'm not sure. Are Portkeys so demanding that you in essence need the exact geographical coordinates to reach a location? Or is a clearly focused intent of destination enough? Or is a clearly focused mental image of the destination enough? I really don't know. I think to some extent, I'm stalled on my theories until we see an example of Apparating from inside someone's head. Since the book is from Harry's point of view, I don't think we will see that until Harry starts taking Apparation lessons, or perhaps, in the heat of the moment, we see him spontaniously apparate. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn (who is deeply disappointed that his original portkey theory was proven wrong, and consequently, he is no longer a candidate for the HP Lexicon.) From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 23:31:28 2003 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:31:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Snape as Malfoy's "lapdog" In-Reply-To: <1060378493.15799.75414.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030808233128.43181.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76157 Sorry for again losing track of what was written by whom... But Snape being Lucius Malfoy's "lapdog" isn't canon, merely an accusation hurled by Sirius. So, for those skeptics among us, the questions surrounding Snape's status with the DEs, his loyalty to the Order and his relationship with Voldemort is really still unanswered. As an unapologetic Snape fan, I choose to rely upon what has actually been written thus far and to accept the judgment of the people who have expressed confidence in him. (Dumbledore, the Weasley parents, Lupin...). FA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 23:31:38 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:31:38 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808230537.9502.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: >We've never seen any indication that > Molly and Arthur have a problem with their children > dating. Molly even told her kid about sneaking out > till three in the morning. > > Besides, Ginny said she didn't want Ron to know. She > never said a word about her parents. I mean, Molly > was giggling with Hermione about love potions, she's > not going to freak out because her daughter (who is a > perfectly acceptable age) has boyfriend that she's not > even serious about. I agree. Molly was giggling with both Hermione and Ginny about brewing love potions. She doesn't seem to have any problem with Ginny being an adolecent. I see no reason to think she'd have a problem with Ginny seeing Micheal, especially since it don't seem to have been anywhere near serious. And like you said, there wasn't even the slighest indication she didn't want her parents to know. It seems to have been just Ron she was sure would take it badly. bibphile From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 8 23:41:56 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:41:56 -0000 Subject: FILK: House of Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76159 House of Black to the tune of "My Home Town" by Tom Lehrer Dedicated to Wendy St. John SCENE: Sirius, in a sarcastic mood, serenades his childhood home. SIRIUS: I can't believe my luck To once again be stuck Here at the place that really takes me back, Reliving carefree golden days of youth At House of Black The portrait of my Mum, Who thought I was a bum, Is shrieking till I fear the walls might crack. And we can't figure out a way to shut her up At House of Black I remember Reg, My perfect little brother, Never gave his parents bother, So they said. He joined Voldemort and ended up quite dead. The silly little twit Really thought that he could quit. It's quite a sight to see Our ancient family tree: Pure blood for fifty generations back. My name's been stricken from it ever since I left The House of Black. My cousin Bellatrix Knows lots of dirty tricks Death Eater was her chosen career track. (This is a children's book, so I can't say what I really think of her) At House of Black. And then there's the elf, My mother named him Kreacher, He's a vile and nasty creature, that is clear. Always muttering abuse where I can hear. I'd like to give him clothes And a good punch in the nose I feel a useless lump, Locked up here in this dump, Evicting doxies from the bric-a-brac. Yes, it's enough to make a strong man go insane At House of Black. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 23:45:47 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:45:47 -0000 Subject: Clothes under robes, kilts (was Re: Snape's nationality and worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76160 > Not wearing anything under robes is not a "witchy" thing it's a > historic thing. People didn't wear trousers under robes because > they weren't invented in the societies where people wore robes. > There weren't a lot of underpants around for that matter either. > The robes are early mediaeval in style. That means a breechclout > for men and women, a shift for ladies and an undertunic for men. > Thats it with regard to underwear. Yes there were trousers in the > early mediaeval period, as worn in Scotland. Trousers were also > worn by the Gauls during Roman Times. But the Romans also wore > nothing under their togas and tunics. (They presumably also liked a bit of a breeze around their privates...) > > June Yes, but if you put it in context with magic practice, it would make more sense why the robes in the Potterverse endured. It wouldn't make sense that they would have just chosen to be naked underneath, or robed even, for centuries just because they were doing it thousands of years ago. Even people in Roman times did not usually wear floor leagnth robes to anything but senate matters and religious events because it wasn't practical. Which is why they later started developing better covers for themselves for while they rode horses and such. I think that J.K.R is making a point when she says they are in long (sometimes hooded)robes and not simply tunics, togas, or loincloths (lol), and why the school uniform is a robe, and not the grammar school outfit they run around in in the movie, with a long cover. That would signify a return to a tradition, not simply a cultural fashion of days gone by. There is something significant about robes-- not just in the "witchy" world, but in most faiths. To put on a robe suggests to partake in something spiritual and important-- and that is really the meaning behind all they learn in Hogwarts, and I think the use of the robes in uniforn helps to convey that. That they would have stayed robed at all, and naked underneath, would be tipping its hat to ideas (true or not) held about ritual magic. From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 23:47:15 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:47:15 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Riddle (was: Re: Grindelwald) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ratalman" wrote: > What has always been a sticky point for me is the fact that Tom > Riddle's mother chose to consort with a Muggle in the first place. > After all, she was one of the last (if not "the" last, before the > birth of her son, Tom) descendants of Salazar Slytherin. What's > she doing falling for a Muggle? Why do you have a problem with it? Sirius's family freaked when one of their own marrried a muggle-born, but he seems to have nothing against muggles. She had an ancestor 1000 years ago that didn't trust muggle-borns. That don't say anything at all about her. She might have been a very nice person with no prejudices. bibphile From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Aug 9 00:29:15 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 00:29:15 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "president0084" wrote: > If Sirius was on the run from the MOM so how did it come about that > he inherited the house? > > Should it not have gone to the Malfoys as the next of kin? I don't think we know enough about how property/wealth is inherited in the wizard world. We may all be energetically applying what we know of our own understanding of wills, probate, etc. while JKR may have constructed something entirely different, because, after all, it's her world. A possible explanation was posted recently dealing with the the concept of entailment. This is not mine - I'm merely passing along what I remember. Entailment, if I've understood it correctly, was a popular vehicle for passing on the family goods in victorian times. Essentially, a patriarch of the family establishes that the property of the family is inherited by the eldest son. It doesn't matter if the son is a criminal or crazy or whatever; he inherits the family property/wealth. Thus, Sirius would inherit the family homestead, 12 Grimmauld Place, regardless of his parents' wishes, because he's the eldest surviving son at the time of his father's death. If his father accumulated wealth or other properties during his life, he could will them to whomever he chose, but the old family property cannot be bequested to anyone other than the oldest surviving male heir. Being on the run from the Ministry would not necessarily mean that one cannot inherit. I may be a criminal, but that doesn't automatically mean that the state or the government is entitled to take over my property or my bank account. So, sure, Sirius could inherit property. The MoM might very well station an Auror or two outside the house, hoping to capture that escaped convict when he comes waltzing down the sidewalk to claim the family hearth, but, if he chooses to reside elsewhere, they don't catch him. Yet, he's still the owner of the property. Of course, this doesn't take tax issues into question. If Convict! Sirius inherits the property, but doesn't fill out the proper forms to pay taxes because he's busy fighting to keep his sanity in Azkaban, can the Ministry, at some point, claim the property in question because of back taxes owed? Is there an accountant out there? Where's that Weaseley squib when we need him??? Marianne From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Aug 9 00:51:29 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 00:51:29 -0000 Subject: Uncle Alphard Snape?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76163 Okay, I'm sure I'm way off base, but, what the hell... Sirius tells us that his Uncle Alphard left him a "good bit of gold," which enabled him to get his own place once he was seventeen. I had always assumed that Uncle Alphard was Alphard Black, brother to Sirius' father, simply because Alphard is the name of a star. But, all we know is that Uncle Alphard was blasted off the Black family tapestry, perhaps because of his leaving a bequest to Blood Traitor! Sirius. I wondered if perhaps Uncle Alphard was related to the Blacks because he married Sirius' father's sister. Alphard Snape marries Miss Black (the infamous Aunt Elladora, perhaps?). Alphard is not particularly concerned with all this blood purity business, and recognizes a kindred spirit in his nephew, Sirius. He leaves his money to Sirius in his will, thus further helping Sirius get away from his awful family, but also depriving the other part of the Snape family, including his other nephew, Severus. Thus, there is an additional reason for Severus to hate Sirius, and, with Alphard Snape blased off the pureblood Black tapestry, the only link to the Snapes disappears, which would help to explain why the name Snape was not noticed by Harry. Marianne From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 9 00:58:36 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:58:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's 'wand hand' (was: book 5 flub) Message-ID: <91.317db7a2.2c65a13c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76164 In a message dated 8/7/2003 12:07:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, dangermousehq at hotmail.com writes: > So, why on the Goblet and Phoenix covers is Harry holding the wand > with his left hand? Is he all of a sudden ampedextrious (forgive me > if i misspelled that)? He did 'clumsily' feed himself porridge with > his left hand when his right arm was growing bones back. > Because Mary GranPre or whatever her name is - the one who illustrates the US editions - doesn't always pay attention to details in the books. Case in point: her depictions of Snape as BALD... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 00:59:26 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 17:59:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard Message-ID: <410-2200386905926753@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76165 Ali wrote: "(Q 4) Is Hedwig's ability to follow Harry's orders, as we later find out that she has pecked Ron and Hermiony, an indication of her having a special talent or are all owls capable of more than messenger duties?" Now me (Wendy): I think Hedwig is special in that she is not a post owl, but is Harry's familiar. I don't remember off the top of my head if JKR ever uses this term specifically, but I think that's the general idea of allowing Hogwarts students to bring a "cat, owl or toad" - that wizards and witches can have a special animal companion (perhaps more than one) who can assist them magically, in small ways. This isn't a new concept - medieval witches were said to have familiars who were companions and also assisted them in casting spells and other magical activities. These animals were often imprisoned and tortured along with their humans during witch persecutions. Hedwig is Harry's familiar, just as Crookshanks is Hermione's, and both animals have special talents (beyond that of regular owls or house cats). And yes, I'm aware that JKR has said Crookshanks is part Kneazel (so not just a regular house cat), but I think this just gives him a wider range of potential "magical" abilities. From what we see in OoP, I think the relationship between Mrs. Figg and her cats (specifically Mr. Tibbles) could also be considered as human/familiar. If so, then this sort of bond would be available not only to witches and wizards, but also to squibs and perhaps even Muggles as well. So, I think this is the reason Hedwig has "special" talents in comparison to a post owl. Based on the fact that in the Potterverse, all owls seem to be able to deliver letters in a rather intuitive manner, I would guess that all owls have the potential for this sort of communication with humans (or wizards and witches at least), but that the average post owl just wouldn't ever have the opportunity or inclination. Since Hedwig and Harry have a special relationship as wizard/familiar, this allows them to communicate on a deeper level. Purely speculative. But that's my story and I'm sticking to it :-) Wendy From ratalman at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 01:08:00 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:08:00 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Riddle (was: Re: Grindelwald) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ratalman" > wrote: > > What has always been a sticky point for me is the fact that Tom > > Riddle's mother chose to consort with a Muggle in the first > place. > > After all, she was one of the last (if not "the" last, before the > > birth of her son, Tom) descendants of Salazar Slytherin. What's > > she doing falling for a Muggle? > > Why do you have a problem with it? Sirius's family freaked when one > of their own marrried a muggle-born, but he seems to have nothing > against muggles. She had an ancestor 1000 years ago that didn't > trust muggle-borns. That don't say anything at all about her. She > might have been a very nice person with no prejudices. > > bibphile What bothers me is that when she dies, she apparently has no friends and no family, and consequently her half-wizard baby has to be raised in a muggle orphanage. Sure, that scenario is possible, she fell in love with a muggle, and despite her family's relation to Salazar, had no prejudices about muggles. But my suspicions go to "how" did she have enough contact with, or knowledge of, the muggle population, to actually fall in love with one? Was she already living her life as a muggle, prior to her relationship with Tom Sr? Was she a squib? Why did she have no one to turn to at the time of her death? Why would she choose a life for herself and her child apart from other magical people? Moreover, the fact that Tom Sr abandoned her upon learning she was a witch, certainly does not suggest that "he" was an enlightened person, and non-prejudiced himself. Why would she choose "him"? I'm wondering whether there is still much to learn about the parents of T.M. Riddle. Robyn From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 01:14:41 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:14:41 -0000 Subject: Harry should just circle all of June (was: Auror training an epilogue to HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76167 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" > wrote: > > Also- random thought- why doesn't Harry seem to catch on that > > something MAJOR and usually BAD happens to him at the end of > > every school year? ; ) > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > Because he is Harry Potter. :: sound of rimshot:: LOL! While this is partially true, and the WORST things seem to happen every year around June, in the fourth and fifth books, there are actually so many awful things happening through the school year that it starts to become difficult to distinguish between those things and the awful things that form the climax of each book. (This occurs to a lesser extent in the second book, with the accumulating petrified bodies, culminating in the decision to close the school when Ginny is taken into the chamber.) Certainly Harry going up against a Hungarian Horntail or having to rescue people from the lake are not much more horrendous than having to get the Stone before Quirrell does, kill a basilisk (another sort of dragon) and confront an convict (Sirius) and then rescue said framed convict (Sirius again) as well as a hippogriff. (In fact, I think the first two tasks in the tournament are worse than what Harry had to do near the end of PoA--there were more possible ways for him to die, for a start.) Harry's fifth year is even worse! It's one terrible thing after another. I think she was setting us up for this in the fourth book by having a series of tasks that Harry would have to perform that were scheduled over the stretch of the entire school year. Things come to a head when the six go off to the Ministry, certainly, but the earlier events of the school year--everything Umbridge did, Fred & George's triumphant exit, Mr. Weasley being attacked--certainly give a feeling of impending doom hanging over all. Every decree handed down by Umbridge is worse than the last. I don't think Harry is blindsided in book five at all, frankly; I think he's waiting with a combination of terror and anticipation for the end-of-year disaster, that he's not the least bit surprised in general. I think he was surprised by some of the specifics of the Ministry battle, but I think he was anticipating some kind of major attack from Death Eaters for months--since the previous summer, in fact, when he spent so much time listening to and reading the news for signs of Voldemort-type activity. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 01:29:05 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:29:05 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Riddle (was: Re: Grindelwald) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ratalman" wrote: > What bothers me is that when she dies, she apparently has no > friends and no family, and consequently her half-wizard baby has > to be raised in a muggle orphanage. > > Sure, that scenario is possible, she fell in love with a muggle, > and despite her family's relation to Salazar, had no prejudices > about muggles. > Entirely possible. Not even very improbable after 1000 years. Robyn: > But my suspicions go to "how" did she have enough contact with, > or knowledge of, the muggle population, to actually fall in love > with one? Was she already living her life as a muggle, prior to > her relationship with Tom Sr? All that's neccessary is that she ventured into the muggle world even once. She could have needed a new muggle outfit for some reason (Quidditch World Cup mabe). She could have just been going for a walk and not intended to talk to anyone. (Hogsmede is the only all magical village and the Blacks lived in London.) She could have just thought it would be adveturous to spend a day in the muggle world. there could be any number of perfectly mundane reasons. Tom Sr. sees her and thinks she's pretty. He starts up a conversation with her. They set up a date. Eventually they get married. Robyn: > Why did she have no one to turn to at the time of her death? Why > would she choose a life for herself and her child apart from other > magical people? That is a bit harder to answer. Maybe all of her family was dead. I'm not sure if there even are wizard orphanages. Maybe she wasn't living as a muggle at all. She could have been walking from home to work when she went into labor. (I don't know if witches can apparate late in pregnancy.) Robyn: > Moreover, the fact that Tom Sr abandoned her upon learning she > was a witch, certainly does not suggest that "he" was an > enlightened person, and non-prejudiced himself. Why would > she choose "him"? She may not have known he was prejudice. He may not have shown it until she told him she was a witch. (Even Seamus's mother didn't tell her husband until after they were married and we have no reason to think he's prejudice so her not telling doesn't indicate she had a particular reason to fear his reaction.) Robyn: > I'm wondering whether there is still much to learn about the > parents of T.M. Riddle. Maybe. But I see no reason to assume Mrs. Riddle was anything other than a witch that fell in love with a muggle. bibphile From kozmoz4 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 01:45:59 2003 From: kozmoz4 at yahoo.com (Zeynep Oner) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 18:45:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: <1060322180.7707.33671.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030809014559.87278.qmail@web12503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76169 This is a silly thought feel free to ignore. I was wondering how Harry will figure out a way to kill Voldemort, and I thought what would happen if he went there thinking "I need to kill Voldemort, I need to kill Voldemort". Would Voldemort really somehow come to the Room of Requirement? From that point I wondered what would happen if he went there thinking, "I need to pass my Potions final" or "I need to see and talk to Sirius one more time." Does the Room produce a solution to all requirements, even complicated or immoral or illegal ones? What do you think? __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From c4bchief at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 02:09:37 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:09:37 -0000 Subject: Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: <20030809014559.87278.qmail@web12503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76170 > I was wondering how Harry will figure out a way to > kill Voldemort, and I thought what would happen if he > went there thinking "I need to kill Voldemort, I need > to kill Voldemort". Would Voldemort really somehow > come to the Room of Requirement? From that point I > wondered what would happen if he went there thinking, > "I need to pass my Potions final" or "I need to see > and talk to Sirius one more time." Does the Room > produce a solution to all requirements, even > complicated or immoral or illegal ones? What do you > think? > Although I see where your train of thought is. I don't think the Room of Requirement grants wishes persay. The only thing it gives is a location... For example, Wishing to kill voldemort wouldn't work, cause its wanting an action as such. However, wanting a location to do something would work. ie, Fred and George finding it as a hidden broom closet. Dumbledore need a bathroom late at night. Dobby need a location to hide Winky while she was drunk. They all wished for "locations." Kinda see what i'm saying? The wish or need would need to be in that form, not of wanting to just outright do something. It only supplies the place, not the actual wish. Joe From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 02:11:27 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:11:27 -0000 Subject: Cut the teens some slack! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76171 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > > I keep reading all these posts that are highly critical of behavior > > and personalities in our cast of teenage characters.......To quote > > Dumbledore (Am.OoP, pg.826) "...Youth can not know how age thinks > and > > feels. But old men are guilty if they forget what it was to be > > young..." > > > Peg: > > Thank you, Karen. The young people we're reading about are acting > just like what they are--young people. Teenagers. I'm only > surprised that they're as manageable as they are. I think JKR has > seen enough teenagers in action (she's been a teacher, after all) to > know how they're going to behave. > > More importantly, she remembers how it *feels.* I also remember > being that young, and I'd never be that age again for *any* reason > whatsoever. Once was quite enough. > > And just to illustrate the kind of changes that they go through, I'll > have to quote my mother, an English teacher for 35 years at a small > high school (U.S.). She got every kid in the community--the ones > from divorces, abusive households, "normal" households, etc. Being > from a small town, she knew the kids' families and what was going on > with them. She never took "acting out" too personally. That doesn't > mean she put up with it, only that she didn't let it get under her > skin. > > Years later, some of the worst of the bad actors meet her in the > grocery store or somewhere else, and say something like "I was pretty > awful, wasn't I?" > > She usually responds with something to the effect of "I knew what was > going on in your life, so I didn't worry about it." > > They outgrow this stuff. > > Right now, Harry is going through changes that makes my Mom's > students' problems look minor. Orphaned, emotionally abused, > apparently abandoned by Dumbledore, threatened with expulsion from > the one place he calls home, physically assaulted by a teacher > (Umbridge and that quill), attacked by dementors, adult wizards and > LV, burdened with the knowledge that he is living in a "destroy or be > destroyed" situation. Heck, I'm surprised the kid hasn't tried to > feed himself to the giant squid. Except the squid is probably smart > enough (hey, it's a magical squid!) not to let him do it. > > I enjoyed OotP, and I'm looking forward to the next installment. > > Peg Ok the people who are saying Harry's an angry and over dramatic teenager, should look very carefully at how they and there friends acted as teenagers. I bet 9 out of 10 of your parents would say, WOW my kid acted just like that when they were teens! So next time you knock harry for being angry you should ask yourself, how would I have acted in this situation? Garrett (a 13 year old who thinks this is the only group with reasonable theroys) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 02:11:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:11:52 -0000 Subject: Snape DE/spy status (WAS Snape and Redemption) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > digger wrote: > > This Snape DE status is really bugging me. > > If we take it that Snape is the one "who has left me forever" > > Voldemort's statement that "he will be killed" seems to imply > that Snape should be on all DE's hit list. > > > > > > > > Quote: > > > "One too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe > has left me forever...he will be killed of course...and one who > remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my > service. > > > > How can Snape be the one who has left him forever, and "will be > killed" and at the same time be *Lucius Malfoy's lapdog*? > {{snip}} >>>> > > > me (shirley): *Excellent* question!! .... > > [last week's post 75667, (I think): > Three thoughts/questions (and my apologies if these have been > covered in previous posts; I only joined about a week ago): > > First, do we really *know* that it's Snape that LV is talking about > in the circle of DEs toward the end of Book 4? > bboy_mn: Process of reasonaable deduction. Who else could it be? True there have been a variety of speculations about who it might be, but in the end, none make as much sense as it being Snape. One key essential aspect of Voldemort's statement is the use of the word 'believe', that indicates an element of doubt. It implies that he thinks this person might have left him. > > Second, ... since Snape was the only one who suspected Quirrel of > being in league with LV in Book 1, is that how LV knows that Snape > is no longer with him (LV)? > bboy_mn: Not quite; Snape suspects Quirrel but Snape has absolutely no way of knowing that Voldemort is involved. How can Snape betray Voldemort in this instance when he has no way of knowing Voldemort is there? And, Snape doesn't give away and disloyalty to Voldemort; he doesn't say or do anything to hint one way or another regarding his feelings. He does try to stop Quirrel from getting the Stone, but anyone who knew Quirrel and suspected him would have done the same. Who in there right mind would believe that someone like Quirrel could be trusted with something like the stone. Although, this does show some loyalty to Dumbledore, that's reasonable since part of Snape's post VW1 (Voldemort War 1) cover is to appear to be reformed. Since Voldemort did not reveal himself to Snape, he can have no reason to believe that Snape was consciously acting against him. > Third, I always thought that Snape, the spy, was still showing up at > LV's lair/hideout as himself - still a loyal DE - and using > Occlumency to keep LV from seeing that he was a spy. However, ... if > LV knows that Snape is no longer on his side, then is Snape > My theory has always been that Snape started out as a spy. Dumbledore or circumstances convinced Snape to come over to the good side. In order to do this safely, Snape convinced Voldemort that Snape could give some worthwhile and verifiable but minor information to Dumbledore and convince Dumbledore that he wanted to come over to the good side, but in reality Snape would be spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort. At least, that's the story he gave Voldemort. What Snape was going then was acting as a double agent. Dumbledore and Voldemort were each convinced that Snape was working for them. In reality Snape had come over to the good side. Today, that is exactly the role Snape is playing. The only way Voldemort would let Snape stay at Hogwarts and near Dumbledore is if he was still convinnced that Snape was willing to continue spying for him. That works our perfect for Dumbledore because now Snape has access to imformation about Voldemort that he can give to Dumbledore. He is still acting as a double agent; spying for both sides, but we assume only truly loyal to Dumbledore. > Shirley today (8-8-03): > So, how can Snape possibly be the DE that LV referred to at the end > of GoF if he's still alive and kicking, as well as spying? See above. When Dumbledore sent Snape on his secret mission at the end of GoF, I suspect Snape went to Malfoy and asked Malfoy to verify to Voldemort that Snape had not betrayed him, and that like many of the other Death Eaters, he was just biding his time waiting for Voldemort to return. Malfoy made the introduction, Snape talked with Voldemort and convinced him, that he was ready to re-enter his service and continue spying on Dumbledore. That is what he did near the end of the first Voldemort War, and that is the role he continues now. > Does LV know, in fact, that Snape isn't loyal to him after the > Quirrel experiences? bboy_mn: Again, see above. Snape has absolutely no knowledge that Voldemort is involved, and therefore his actions can't be concieved as being against Voldemort; that are exclusively against Quirrel. >In what manner is Snape spying; I'm not sure he *can* > be a double-agent at this point? >Ooooh, this hurts my head! > > Shirley bboy_mn: Again, see statements above. I don't for even one second think that Voldemort welcomed Snape back with a hug and a kiss. I'm sure Snape endured a few Cruciatus Curses. One for his interference in the Socerer's Stone, and several others just for good measure to remind him that any betray of Voldemort comes at an extremely high price. There have been many theories about what is going on with Snape but no has even remotely come close to swaying be from my double agent spy theory. Snape seems to have access to Voldemort, he seems to know where Voldemort is, Voldemort would never allow this unless he thought there was something in it for him. That something is believing Snape is still his spy against Dumbledore. The only other theory I had is that Snape is only in contact with Malfoy, and it is Malfoy who is now playing both sides against the middle. At least that seemed possible until Malfoy ended up in Prison. So, unitl something better comes along, I firmly stick to my original idea; Snape is a double agent. bboy_mn From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 8 18:51:37 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:51:37 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' House References: Message-ID: <3F33F139.7060904@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76173 ajlboston wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "HunterGreen" > wrote: > >>Think >>of the statement that there isn't a witch/wizard who went bad who >>wasn't in Slytherin > > ...which was made by Hagrid, at the time when the wizarding world > thought that Sirius was really the multimurderer. I think that statement was not meant to be taken as literally true, but as hyperbole. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 8 18:57:49 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 14:57:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius' House References: Message-ID: <3F33F2AD.10501@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76174 sarcasticmuppet wrote: > > As far as I could tell in Book V, Phineas Nigellus wasn't such a bad > guy. In fact, he became my favorite minor character in the whole > book. Sure he's been dead for about a hundred years, but still, I > think the ellusive 'Good Slytherin' has indeed been found. I don't know if you can go so far as to say that Nigellus was `good'. He does, after all, try to obstruct Dumbledore to the extent that he can, and only goes to Grimmauld Place when forced to by the other portraits. We also don't know how much the personality of the portrait matches the personality of the real Nigellus. That being said, Nigellus is certainly an entertaining character, and is not without his good points. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 8 19:33:49 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:33:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: HRH Love triangle & Ron's downfall References: Message-ID: <3F33FB1D.3010703@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76175 queenofeverythang wrote: > > Sure Mrs. Weasley finds the story believable, because the humor > of the situation is that gossip seems scathing when it's aimed at > you but suddenly seems plausible when it's about someone > else. Harry and Hermione aren't a far-fetched idea, especially if > you don't know them very well. Mrs. Weasley doesn't know > Hermione too well, maybe she assumed she was duped into > liking her as Harry supposedly was. She sees Harry as a son > but, though she does care, doesn't show that same affinity for > Hermione. Hermione isn't an orphan, and doesn't need an extra mother. However, I don't think we know enough to say that Molly doesn't know Hermione well; we just don't see them together much. Hermione did stay at the Weasley's for a while, and seemed to be good friends with Ginny. Ron has surely talked about her. I would guess that Molly has recognized that there is something between Ron and Hermione, and that the story made her snub Hermione more because it implied that Hermione had dumped Ron than because it stated that she was dumping Harry. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 8 19:10:24 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 15:10:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Should HP tell LV? If Tom had been successful, et al References: Message-ID: <3F33F5A0.3070108@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76176 magicroxx wrote: > I found it a little worrisome that Dumbledore didn't tell Harry to > not tell anyone, or not to think about it, or some sort of warning. > If Voldemort finds about this prophecy, it could be catastrophic. > Right now, Voldemort fears Dumbledore to some degree. If he knew what > the prophecy said, he would know that the only person he should fear > is Harry. Dumbledore might want Voldemort to think along those lines, since it might lead Voldemort to get over-confident and start making mistakes. If he thinks Dumbledore is not a threat, and stops paying attention to what Dumbledore is up to, he allows Dumbledore free to act without interference. Even if he can't 'vanquish' Voldemort, Dumbledore can still hinder him in other ways. From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 02:20:13 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:20:13 -0000 Subject: Snape DE/spy status (WAS Snape and Redemption) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" > wrote: > > digger wrote: > > > This Snape DE status is really bugging me. > > > If we take it that Snape is the one "who has left me forever" > > > Voldemort's statement that "he will be killed" seems to imply > > that Snape should be on all DE's hit list. > > > > > > > > > > > Quote: > > > > "One too cowardly to return...he will pay. One, who I believe > > has left me forever...he will be killed of course...and one who > > remains my most faithful servant, and who has already reentered my > > service. > > > > > > How can Snape be the one who has left him forever, and "will be > > killed" and at the same time be *Lucius Malfoy's lapdog*? > > {{snip}} >>>> > > > > > > me (shirley): > > *Excellent* question!! .... > > > > [last week's post 75667, (I think): > > Three thoughts/questions (and my apologies if these have been > > covered in previous posts; I only joined about a week ago): > > > > First, do we really *know* that it's Snape that LV is talking about > > in the circle of DEs toward the end of Book 4? > > > > bboy_mn: > Process of reasonaable deduction. Who else could it be? True there > have been a variety of speculations about who it might be, but in the > end, none make as much sense as it being Snape. > > One key essential aspect of Voldemort's statement is the use of the > word 'believe', that indicates an element of doubt. It implies that he > thinks this person might have left him. > > > > > > Second, ... since Snape was the only one who suspected Quirrel of > > being in league with LV in Book 1, is that how LV knows that Snape > > is no longer with him (LV)? > > > > bboy_mn: > Not quite; Snape suspects Quirrel but Snape has absolutely no way of > knowing that Voldemort is involved. How can Snape betray Voldemort in > this instance when he has no way of knowing Voldemort is there? And, > Snape doesn't give away and disloyalty to Voldemort; he doesn't say or > do anything to hint one way or another regarding his feelings. He does > try to stop Quirrel from getting the Stone, but anyone who knew > Quirrel and suspected him would have done the same. Who in there right > mind would believe that someone like Quirrel could be trusted with > something like the stone. Although, this does show some loyalty to > Dumbledore, that's reasonable since part of Snape's post VW1 > (Voldemort War 1) cover is to appear to be reformed. > > Since Voldemort did not reveal himself to Snape, he can have no reason > to believe that Snape was consciously acting against him. > > > > Third, I always thought that Snape, the spy, was still showing up at > > LV's lair/hideout as himself - still a loyal DE - and using > > Occlumency to keep LV from seeing that he was a spy. However, ... if > > LV knows that Snape is no longer on his side, then is Snape > > > > My theory has always been that Snape started out as a spy. Dumbledore > or circumstances convinced Snape to come over to the good side. In > order to do this safely, Snape convinced Voldemort that Snape could > give some worthwhile and verifiable but minor information to > Dumbledore and convince Dumbledore that he wanted to come over to the > good side, but in reality Snape would be spying on Dumbledore for > Voldemort. At least, that's the story he gave Voldemort. > > What Snape was going then was acting as a double agent. Dumbledore and > Voldemort were each convinced that Snape was working for them. In > reality Snape had come over to the good side. > > Today, that is exactly the role Snape is playing. The only way > Voldemort would let Snape stay at Hogwarts and near Dumbledore is if > he was still convinnced that Snape was willing to continue spying for > him. That works our perfect for Dumbledore because now Snape has > access to imformation about Voldemort that he can give to Dumbledore. > He is still acting as a double agent; spying for both sides, but we > assume only truly loyal to Dumbledore. > > > Shirley today (8-8-03): > > So, how can Snape possibly be the DE that LV referred to at the end > > of GoF if he's still alive and kicking, as well as spying? > > See above. When Dumbledore sent Snape on his secret mission at the end > of GoF, I suspect Snape went to Malfoy and asked Malfoy to verify to > Voldemort that Snape had not betrayed him, and that like many of the > other Death Eaters, he was just biding his time waiting for Voldemort > to return. Malfoy made the introduction, Snape talked with Voldemort > and convinced him, that he was ready to re-enter his service and > continue spying on Dumbledore. That is what he did near the end of the > first Voldemort War, and that is the role he continues now. > > > > > Does LV know, in fact, that Snape isn't loyal to him after the > > Quirrel experiences? > > bboy_mn: > > Again, see above. Snape has absolutely no knowledge that Voldemort is > involved, and therefore his actions can't be concieved as being > against Voldemort; that are exclusively against Quirrel. > > >In what manner is Snape spying; I'm not sure he *can* > > be a double-agent at this point? > >Ooooh, this hurts my head! > > > > Shirley > > bboy_mn: > Again, see statements above. > > I don't for even one second think that Voldemort welcomed Snape back > with a hug and a kiss. I'm sure Snape endured a few Cruciatus Curses. > One for his interference in the Socerer's Stone, and several others > just for good measure to remind him that any betray of Voldemort comes > at an extremely high price. > > There have been many theories about what is going on with Snape but no > has even remotely come close to swaying be from my double agent spy > theory. Snape seems to have access to Voldemort, he seems to know > where Voldemort is, Voldemort would never allow this unless he thought > there was something in it for him. That something is believing Snape > is still his spy against Dumbledore. > > The only other theory I had is that Snape is only in contact with > Malfoy, and it is Malfoy who is now playing both sides against the > middle. At least that seemed possible until Malfoy ended up in Prison. > > So, unitl something better comes along, I firmly stick to my original > idea; Snape is a double agent. > > bboy_mn I think voldermort is an idiot! I think snape is the one who they would sevaerly hurt forn not coming back. BUT being at H.W. he couldn't go, being as he was at H.W. so if they were to hurt him they would be doing it because of magic voldy couldnt even do. Garrett From psnow at nipha.com Sat Aug 9 02:23:51 2003 From: psnow at nipha.com (mrnipha) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:23:51 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Riddle (was: Re: Grindelwald) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > Robyn: > > Why did she have no one to turn to at the time of her death? Why > > would she choose a life for herself and her child apart from other > > magical people? > > That is a bit harder to answer. Maybe all of her family was dead. > I'm not sure if there even are wizard orphanages. Maybe she wasn't > living as a muggle at all. She could have been walking from home to > work when she went into labor. (I don't know if witches can > apparate late in pregnancy.) > If her family was anything like the Black's (or Malfoy's, etc.) marrying a muggle would get her disowned. We don't know how long they were married before she told Tom Sr. that she was a witch, but obviously she had been living as a muggle before that time. If she didn't have any wizarding friends, or lost them when she married a muggle, she could have been living as a muggle until she died. She obviously didn't have any wizarding friends or family that could or would, take in a baby ("dirty half-breed" to quote Mrs. Black), otherwise Tom Jr. wouldn't have grown up in an orphanage. We live in an age where there are many examples of mixed marriages, but Tom Jr. was born in an age that in the American Midwest a mixed marriage was a German Catholic marrying a Swedish Lutheran. > Robyn: > > Moreover, the fact that Tom Sr abandoned her upon learning she > > was a witch, certainly does not suggest that "he" was an > > enlightened person, and non-prejudiced himself. Why would > > she choose "him"? > > She may not have known he was prejudice. He may not have shown it > until she told him she was a witch. (Even Seamus's mother didn't > tell her husband until after they were married and we have no reason > to think he's prejudice so her not telling doesn't indicate she had > a particular reason to fear his reaction.) > Replace witch with illegitimate child or any other taboo back in the late '20s that wasn't physically apparent, and yes, stuff like that really happened. > Robyn: > > I'm wondering whether there is still much to learn about the > > parents of T.M. Riddle. > > Maybe. But I see no reason to assume Mrs. Riddle was anything other > than a witch that fell in love with a muggle. > > bibphile The only aspect that I could see that would be of interest to the story would be her family, and only if it played into some storyline. The facts that we do know, that Tom Jr. is the last descendent of Slytherin, would suggest that those linkages would be unlikely and far removed (i.e. Snape's great-great-aunt Zelda was Tom Jr.'s grandmother). just my random thoughts MrNipha From KLMF at aol.com Sat Aug 9 02:30:02 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (klmf1) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:30:02 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76179 An observation on Dudley.... OoP- At Harry's trial on August 12th someone stated that muggles can't see Dementors, but no where did I find anything about whether they can *feel* them, at least not the way Dudley did (which was as Wizards do). Dudley apparently did feel them though we don't know if he actually saw them. I'm sure this must have come up before ..... Does the fact that Dudley felt the Dementors suggest that perhaps he's not really a muggle? I thought it interesting that no more was made of this encounter in the book..... another foreshadowing snuck in? Karen F From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 02:34:42 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:34:42 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens > wrote: > > Besides, Ginny said she didn't want Ron to know. She > > never said a word about her parents. I mean, Molly > > was giggling with Hermione about love potions, she's > > not going to freak out because her daughter (who is a > > perfectly acceptable age) has boyfriend that she's not > > even serious about. > > > I agree. Molly was giggling with both Hermione and Ginny about > brewing love potions. She doesn't seem to have any problem with > Ginny being an adolecent. I see no reason to think she'd have a > problem with Ginny seeing Micheal, especially since it don't seem to have been anywhere near serious. > > And like you said, there wasn't even the slighest indication she > didn't want her parents to know. It seems to have been just Ron she was sure would take it badly. > > bibphile As to whether or not Molly and Arthur would disapprove of Ginny dating Michael, Molly is a bit of a romantic and I imagine Ginny wouldn't want to constantly answer questions about her relationship. Even when I was away at college, I didn't tell my parents much about who I was dating, because even a second date would have my mother making long-term plans. As far as telling Ron, Fred or George, well, all I can think of is the friend with 8 older brothers who would sit outside their house waiting for her date to bring her home... for some reason , she was rarely asked out a second time. Somehow I see the brothers suddenly becoming very protective of their "baby" sister - and Ginny not appreciating it at all. Much easier to keep quiet and not flaunt it in front of them. Ravenclaw Bookworm From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 02:35:12 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:35:12 -0000 Subject: Where are we headed in #6? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n_longbottom01" wrote: Is there anything this solid in OoP that shows us what might be in store for us in the next book? Right now I don't have a specific passage to point to in OoP that makes me say, "Aha, this means such and such is happening next!" Now me: Here are some issues I'd love to see explored in Book 6 (some are minor, but Book 5 left them hanging). 1) Lupin and Harry. So Lupin is back in Book 5, one of my favorite characters, and he's basically in the background. Even though he always seems to be the "voice of reason" in the midst of the drama, he has very little time in Book 5. He was instrumental in helping Harry during POA, not just with his magical development, but helping Harry make more sense of his past and family. Will Lupin finally get a chance to shine in Book 6, to really provide Harry with a pratical, solid-as-a-rock foundation that he desperately needs? 2) Please, JKR, tell us once and for all why all these eligible singles are walking around, or how they lost their loved ones if they are widowed/childless! 3) Why could Dumbledore talk directly to Harry at the end of OOTP?? This HAS to be answered at some point in Book 6, b/c if the threat is gone due to the vast amounts of love harry possesses, then no occlumency lessons are needed. If Harry's still at risk, obviously the isssue of safety for OOTP, Snape, Dumbledore, etc. has to be explored. I don't see how this issue can wait until book 7, but then, I've been surprised before.... 4) Molly Weasley must know Fred/George quit school and started the joke shop, b/c they were at the train station together. And they are still alive?! There's got to be some follow-up on that issue, and Harry financing it. Ariadne From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Aug 9 02:53:09 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:53:09 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Riddle (was: Re: Grindelwald) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > Robyn: > > But my suspicions go to "how" did she have enough contact with, > > or knowledge of, the muggle population, to actually fall in love > > with one? Was she already living her life as a muggle, prior to > > her relationship with Tom Sr? > > All that's neccessary is that she ventured into the muggle world > even once. She could have needed a new muggle outfit for some > reason (Quidditch World Cup mabe). She could have just been going > for a walk and not intended to talk to anyone. (Hogsmede is the > only all magical village and the Blacks lived in London.) She could > have just thought it would be adveturous to spend a day in the > muggle world. there could be any number of perfectly mundane > reasons. Tom Sr. sees her and thinks she's pretty. He starts up a > conversation with her. They set up a date. Eventually they get > married. > In the graveyard scene in GoF, doesn't Voldemort tell Harry that his mother was a witch *living in the village*? I had the impression she was a witch living unsuspected among muggles. Since Hogsmeade is the only all-wizard village, this must be rather common. It sounded to me like this might have been an illicit romance between the son of the local rich family up at the Big House and a village girl. > Robyn: > > Why did she have no one to turn to at the time of her death? Why > > would she choose a life for herself and her child apart from other > > magical people? > > That is a bit harder to answer. Maybe all of her family was dead. > I'm not sure if there even are wizard orphanages.> This is why I don't think she and Tom Riddle were married. It would make no sense for her to throw herself alone and friendless upon the world, if she had a legal position to fall back on. So he changes his mind and claims she lied to him, what can he really do? How can you divorce a woman for being a witch? (And divorce was not that easy 75 years ago.) He would have been stuck with her, at least with supporting her and her child. But if he just knocked her up, then found out she was a witch and turned his back on her, she would be in real trouble. Living in a small village, I can easily believe she'd leave to avoid the shame. Why she didn't turn to other family, I don't know; maybe they were all dead or also against her. But if she'd been married to Tom Riddle, it would be a question of law - there'd be papers, witnesses, etc., and she would have some protection. I don't know what the law is about "disowning" a son, but even that has to be done legally; there would have been paperwork all over the place. But there's nothing. Furthermore, if Tom Riddle Jr. was legitimate, he'd have inherited the Riddle House when his father died, but that isn't what happened, or the villagers would know about it. I think that Voldemort/Tom had more than one reason for hating his father, and one of them was that he didn't even marry his mother, and threw her aside when she got pregnant, which probably led to her death. Wanda From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 02:54:11 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:54:11 -0000 Subject: Harry should just circle all of June (was: Auror training an epilogue to HP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "allies426" > > wrote: > > > > Also- random thought- why doesn't Harry seem to catch on that > > > something MAJOR and usually BAD happens to him at the end of > > > every school year? ; ) Wondered that myself. I might not have carried on reading the HP books if not for the catylclsmic ending of GoF. The first three books had total Scooby Doo endings. ("And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you medling kids!!") Even GoF was mildly Scooby Doo-ish with the whole Barty Crouch Jr/veritus serum scene. Admittedly, OoP had more horrible events spaced out over the year, but you'd think Harry would be on guard for these end of term disasters by now. JKR ought to kill someone on page 92 of the next book, especially now that she seems to have dispensed with the tiresome exposition of the earlier books. If she kills off some beloved character BEFORE the kids get on the school train, at least Harry can deal with the traumatizing aftermath at school where he's surrounded by a support group. All that summertime brooding at the Dursleys is turning Harry so angsty! Allyson From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 02:55:51 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:55:51 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: Entailment, if I've understood it correctly, was a > popular vehicle for passing on the family goods in victorian times. Essentially, a patriarch of the family establishes that the property of the family is inherited by the eldest son. > Marianne I just finished reading Norman Cantor's "In the Wake of the Plague" about the Black Death in the 1300s. According to him, entailment was started in medieval to keep times when property values started to skyrocket after a population boom in the late 1200s/early 1300s. It was gradually phased out and finally abolished in the late 1800s. [And is now a popular plot devise in romance novels ;)] Ravenclaw Bookworm From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 03:01:20 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:01:20 -0000 Subject: My theory Petunia/"That Boy" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76185 Hey all! Again, I will give my usual disclaimer - I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts so this may have all ready been said, although I couldn't find it in the archives :-) Now that that's out of the way, my husband and I were talking about OOP last night, and especially about Petunia and her relationship to the wizarding world when a thought struck me. When they are talking about the dementors, Petunia know what they are and where they are supposed to be. When she is asked about it, she says that she heard "that boy" talking about them. Now, I assumed that she was refering to James, but what if she wasn't? Here is my theory: when she was a teenager, Petunia dated, and fell in love with, a wizard. During the course of this relationship they talked about many things, and she learned a lot about the wizarding world. She was so in love with him that she planned a future with him after they finished schooling. However, he was a pure blood, and while dating a muggle was fine with him, he had no intentions of ever marrying her. When he finally told her this, she was devistated and looked at the entire wizarding world in a new light - a very bad light at that. This heart break forever turned her against the wizarding world and anything to do with it. Hence the reason she is so nasty about the WW, yet seems to know so much about it. Well, that's it...what does everyone think? If you think it's completely rediculous, please don't laugh too hard or send too many howlers my way! :-) Beckah From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 03:01:33 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:01:33 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ajlboston" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > > Has anyone else noticed the similarities between Peter Pettigrew > and > > Colin Creevey? > > > Interesting! Don't forget... as overheard in the Three > Broomsticks... PP "hero-worshipped" James. > > Hm! > > A.J. Yep!! I think everyone is ignoring the fiendish potential of Colin Creevey! Ok, he is a bit young, and I know his dad is a milkman or something, but I'm sure VD wouldn't care, as long as he has useful information to share. Maybe this is my seething hatred of the Creeveys at work here, but I just can't see why JKR would put these annoying and seemingly innocuous characters in for no reason. They must be evil!!! Allyson From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 03:04:05 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:04:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: <20030809014559.87278.qmail@web12503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030809030405.61019.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76187 --- Zeynep Oner wrote > > I was wondering how Harry will figure out a way to > kill Voldemort, and I thought what would happen if > he > went there thinking "I need to kill Voldemort, I > need > to kill Voldemort". Would Voldemort really somehow > come to the Room of Requirement? From that point I > wondered what would happen if he went there > thinking, > "I need to pass my Potions final" or "I need to see > and talk to Sirius one more time." Does the Room > produce a solution to all requirements, even > complicated or immoral or illegal ones? What do you > think? > Buttercup: I think the room can only produce inanimate objects, not live people. I don't think it would give the answers to a test, but it could provide a lab to practice potionmaking. I'm sure there are limits to the room's abilities. But this is a clever thought, I'll admitt. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 03:29:04 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 20:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Best/Touching Moments In OOTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809032904.55476.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76188 What are your favorite scenes in OOTP? I wasn't ready to reread the whole book again, so I just reread my favorite parts, like the Occlumency lessons with Snape (I mean,..Sir), Sirius' death, and Chapter 37 (The Lost Prophecy) are a few. Then when I got to the incident where Harry's looking into the mirror and calling, "Sirius Black," that was a heart wrencher. It didn't affect me that way during the first read. JKR sure knows how to put your heart through a wringer washer. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From annemehr at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 03:33:52 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:33:52 -0000 Subject: Oop & PoA: Harry and Neville's "connection" and foreshadowing In-Reply-To: <20030808150836.11068.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vanessa Heggie wrote: > Wrt the new `connection' between Neville and Harry, > via the Prophecy, did anyone else instantly think of > the Night Bus scene in PoA? When Harry has to come up > with a new identity, he seizes upon Neville's name. > This struck me as odd at the time, but perhaps less so > now given JKR's love of foreshadowing ? are there any > other occasions in the books where Harry identifies > with Neville? Or where they are described in similar > ways? Or where he envies him (I doubt it)? I can't > think of any off hand, but I wouldn't be surprised if > they were there, somewhere > > Vanessa Yes, there is at least one. In GoF, Ch. 31, after Harry had seen the trial of the DEs who had tortured the Longbottoms he is lying awake in bed relating Neville's plight to his own. "As Harry took off his glasses and climbed into his four-poster, he imagined how it must feel to have parents still living but unable to recongnize you. He often got sympathy from strangers for being an orphan, but as he listened to Neville's snores, he thought that Neville deserved it more than he did. Lying in the darkness, Harry felt a rush of anger and hate toward the people who had tortured Mr. and Mrs. Longbottom...." One of my favorite passages... Annemehr who spent much of CoS, PoA and GoF thinking "but where's Neville?..." From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat Aug 9 03:37:00 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:37:00 -0000 Subject: Snape DE/spy status (WAS Snape and Redemption) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76190 Shirley wrote: > > So, how can Snape possibly be the DE that LV referred to at the end > > of GoF if he's still alive and kicking, as well as spying? And Steve replied: > See above. When Dumbledore sent Snape on his secret mission at the end > of GoF, I suspect Snape went to Malfoy and asked Malfoy to verify to > Voldemort that Snape had not betrayed him, and that like many of the > other Death Eaters, he was just biding his time waiting for Voldemort > to return. Malfoy made the introduction, Snape talked with Voldemort > and convinced him, that he was ready to re-enter his service and > continue spying on Dumbledore. That is what he did near the end of the > first Voldemort War, and that is the role he continues now. Just to add my two cents... Until OotP came out, I was certain Snape couldn't possibly have returned to his role of double agent. Like Shirley said, Voldemort certainly isn't stupid, and the evidence strongly points to his doubts regarding Snape's loyalty. Whenever this scenario was brought up, I pictured a lovely little scene: Snape strolls up to Voldemort, explains that his apparent side switch was all an act, Voldemort smiles, says "That's nice", and promptly kills Snape. Enter Occlumency. With this little talent, I can suddenly accept the idea that Snape actually did return to Voldemort, pledge his unwavering loyalty, and regain acceptance into Voldemort's ranks. Although the evidence is a bit sketchy, I think that occlumens are rare, and Snape's occlumency skills are far above the average of that small group. Dumbledore, who seems to be exceptionally skilled in all forms of magic, ranks Snape as near his own level in this particular skill. Voldemort's one consistant weakness thoughout all five books has been his tendency to underestimate his opponents (a pretty typical flaw in successful bad guys in general and evil overlords in particular). This case was no different. I'm sure Voldemort is overconfident in his combined legilimency/torture abilities, and has never considered the possibility that someone could fool him. So now, when Snape strolls up to Voldemort and explains the whole misunderstanding, Voldemort believes him. He has no choice. The alternative would be that Snape outsmarted and out-magicked him, a situation so absurd that it wouldn't even enter Voldemort's mind. -Corinth From yellows at aol.com Sat Aug 9 03:49:41 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:49:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Tactics & Prescience (was Why Bella didn't disapparate/ OOP Az. effects) Message-ID: <44B89406.1E5A47AF.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76191 In a message dated 8/8/2003 10:35:07 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tzakis1225 at netzero.com writes: > Perhaps Dumbledore didn't "kill" Sirius, maybe he > volunteered. Okay, I either agree or disagree with this. ;) Shocked? My reason to disagree: From what I've seen, we have Remus the thinker who has to keep his emotions in check at all times (probably because of his secret), we have Peter the betrayer who is afraid of his destiny, and we have Sirius the lover who acts based on his emotions and without thinking. We don't know enough about James yet to place him. This is how I view the friends. If Sirius is the lover who acts on his emotions without much forward thinking (as we've seen him be in much of his on-screen time, especially in OoP), then I have a hard time imagining him volunteering to die like that. In fact, I can hear him saying, "Why can't it be Severus?" :) Also, I believe that he'd go to Harry with tears and a hug at some strange moment if he knew ahead of time he was going to die. And (forgive me, I don't have a moment to go through the book right now), wasn't it DD who said he didn't think Sirius wanted to die? I can accept that perhaps DD planned Sirius' death (although it hurts to think about), but I have a hard time seeing Sirius accepting it himself. Now, my reason to agree: :) It would make a really emotional story told in flashback if JKR wanted to give us one. DD could spill the beans, we could all have a great, big cry, and maybe even Harry's loyalty could be swayed by the harsh reality. But I think I lean more toward my reason to disagree. :) What are other opinions? Brief Chronicles From meltowne at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 03:51:04 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:51:04 -0000 Subject: Weasley ages (was:Re: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > > > However in PoA, it said that Gryffindore hadn't won the quidditch > > cup since Chalie left and that they hadn't won in seven years. It > > seemed to imply that Charlie's seventh year was the last ime they > > won. That would put Charlie seven years older than Percy so bill > > would be at least 13 years older than Ginny. But the reference in PoA is that they won the Quiddich Cup when Charlie was there - the 7 years refers to the House Cup - they could have won the Quiddich Cup without winning the House Cup, meaning Charlie could have been as little as 7 years older the HRH, and 3 years older than Percy. So we have a range of ages for them without being inconsistant. > Since I just spent the last half hour looking for this, I thought I'd > just go ahead and throw in a page number for the reference about > Ginny and Bill. In CoS, when she wakes up after Harry destroys the > diary she says, "I've looked forward to coming to Hogwarts ever since > B-Bill came" (p 323, US Paperback). This could refer to any time > that Bill was at Hogwarts, I believe. > > KathyK Thanks Kathy! I knew I'd read it. This suggests the Bill was no older than 17 (7th year) when Ginny was probably 2 or 3 - making him up to 14 years older than her, 13 years older than HRH. This gives Charlie a range of 7-12 years older than HRH. If Bill was last at Hogwarts as a student (5 years before GOF) that would put him 8 years older than HRH and Charlie 7 years older. It would be nice to know, but I'm not sure it woudl really tell us anything anyway. Melinda From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 03:07:00 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:07:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Portkeys - Curses foiled again References: Message-ID: <3F346554.9050804@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76193 Steve wrote: > >>T.M. Sommers >> >>One factor you didn't mention is that it probably requires an >>intimate knowledge of the destination so that, for instance, you >>don't materialize in a wall or whatever. If true, then you >>wouldn't create a portkey to go anywhere you had never been >>before, such as a field near the QWC. > > If I want to be in a small field hidden from view just out side the > town of Working, Surrey, or perhaps down a dark alley inside that > city; having never been there, is that general knowledge and intent > sufficient to produce the intended result? I'm not sure. How do you know that the field is there? Or that it is not now in the middle of a building? From what we have seen of using a portkey, the traveller does not have much control. I am not saying that what I proposed is necessarily true, but it would help explain the restrictions on using portkeys. On the other hand, those restrictions might just be the ravings of a paranoid bureaucracy. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 03:37:23 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:37:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in Snape's DADA? References: <410-220038586517677@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3F346C73.4030509@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76194 Wendy St John wrote: > But until I see some canon showing that he really *does* favour > the Slytherins (by awarding gratuitous house points, or by grading unfairly > in their favour), I refuse to believe that he actually *is* favouring them. > I think this is one area in which he's not getting the credit he deserves > for being - dare I say it? - fair. We have never seen Snape award points to anyone. We have, though, seen him take many points from Gryffindor that were not at all justifiable, and we have seen some instances when he was justified in taking some points, but took too many (compared to the same or similar offenses in other situations). However, we have never seen him take a single point from any Slytherin, even when a Slytherin does the same thing for which he took points from Gryffindor (such as being late for class). One must ask, how is it that Slytherin won so many House Cups? They are not brilliant scholars. Nor are they all that good at Quidditch (if they were any good, they would not have to cheat so much). The most plausible explanation is that Snape sees to it that they win by unjustifiably deducting points from other houses, and unjustifiably awarding points to his own house. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 03:42:12 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:42:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry=halfblood? References: Message-ID: <3F346D94.60307@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76195 Geoff Bannister wrote: > Harry's take on that is interesting in OOTP: > > "Shut your mouth!" Bellatix shrieked. "You dare speak his name with > your unworthy lips, you dare besmirch it with your half-blood's > tongue, you dare -" > "Did you know he's a half-blood too?" said Harry > recklessly......."Voldemort? Yeah, his mother was a witch but his dad > was a Muggle - or has he been telling you lot he's pure-blood?" > > Harry seems to accept BL's comment re him being half-blood without > contradiction. To have argued the point would have been to accept the proposition that it mattered. Anyway, it was hardly the time to engage in a debate on semantics. From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 04:36:14 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:36:14 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > As far as telling Ron, Fred or George, well, all I can think of is > the friend with 8 older brothers who would sit outside their house > waiting for her date to bring her home... for some reason , she > was rarely asked out a second time. Somehow I see the brothers > suddenly becoming very protective of their "baby" sister - and Ginny > not appreciating it at all. Much easier to keep quiet and not > flaunt it in front of them. > Ravenclaw Bookworm I disagree. Ron may be overprotective but Fred and George don't strike me as the type. They'd probably give her a nudge and a wink, especially if they knew she wasn't serious about the guy. I think they'd rather tease her than scare her date. bibphile From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 04:42:51 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:42:51 -0000 Subject: Weasley ages (was:Re: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > But the reference in PoA is that they won the Quiddich Cup when > Charlie was there - the 7 years refers to the House Cup - they could have won the Quiddich Cup without winning the House Cup, meaning Charlie could have been as little as 7 years older the HRH, and 3 years older than Percy. So we have a range of ages for them without being inconsistant. > No. I'm pretty sure it was in PS that it had been seven years since they won the House Cup and in PoA, it had been seven years since they won the Quidditch Cup. I know they won the house cup in PS and CoS. Besides, I'm pretty sure PoA was the first time they won the Quidditch cup since Oliver had been on the team. If Charlie was only three years older than Percy, Oliver would have been a fourh year the last time they won the Quidditch cup. I seriouly doubt his fifth year was his first year on the team since he was captain. bibphile From sngoing at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 04:53:19 2003 From: sngoing at yahoo.com (Steven) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:53:19 -0000 Subject: Something I would like to see...... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76198 I would like to find out that Fred and George have made Harry a secret partner in their Magic Joke Shoppe. Harry gave them the start up capital and I would think it would be a great jesture to make him an unsuspecting partner. Even it is just a token, like 10%. It is not a big thing, but something I would like to see, as it shows good character. Though Fred and George are pranksters, I think they are young men of good character. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 04:56:12 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:56:12 -0000 Subject: AtomBomb In-Reply-To: <20030808180021.26348.qmail@web10405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76199 <<< The Entwife wrote: Since places like Hogwarts and the Quidditch Cup Stadium are spelled to make muggles avoid them (and make muggle artifacts not work in them?) - if someone was say flying overhead and dropped an atom-bomb - would it go off? Would it fall crooked? What? >>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Ooh, ooh! Something else I never thought would come up in the conversation! It all depends on WHY muggle artifacts don't work, which possibly involves what exactly is defined as a 'muggle artifact'. Electricity, but why? Would batteries work? A steam-powered generator? Solar cells? TNT? Then we have to consider the bomb itself: how it is delivered, how and where it is detonated, etc. Tiny little tactical nukes which are used the same way as conventional explosives and can be carried by a guy with a dufflebag sized thing strapped to his back, or big ol' strategic weapons which would take out a country or two and require great big aiplanes or space-based missiles? Dirty bombs detonated on the surface, or the lovely gold-and-white airbursts? And then there's the expense: you gotta be motivated to pull together that kind of money; you're not going to happen to be casually cruising over a Scottish castle in your luxury private long-range bomber with a planeload of nuclear weapons which you suddenly take it into your head to unload, even if you can see it and identify it as your target. All that being said, my opinion is that if a plane could fly directly overhead (and not veer off course or vanish a la Bermuda Triangle), it could drop a bomb; and if the protecting spells did not have the function of deflecting or repelling falling objects, the bomb would reach target and detonate. --JDR From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 04:58:29 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:58:29 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > Yep!! I think everyone is ignoring the fiendish potential of Colin > Creevey! Ok, he is a bit young, and I know his dad is a milkman or > something, but I'm sure VD wouldn't care, as long as he has useful > information to share. > Maybe this is my seething hatred of the Creeveys at work here, but > I just can't see why JKR would put these annoying and seemingly > innocuous characters in for no reason. They must be evil!!! > I don't think Voldemort would consider Colin worthy of working for him. After all, Colin is muggle-born. But then, I don't hate the Creevys. I did Colin incredibly annoying in COS. However, in PoA he seemed to stop following and annoying Harry so he didn't bother me any more, even if he was still a fan on Harry. Then Dennis entered the picture, and I stated to like the Creevys. I think it's cool that the kid thought it was great to rescued by the giant squid. I like how Colin and Dennis seem close. I like how Colin does things with Dennis rather than blow him off to spend time with his friends (if he has any). I guess I'm just strange. I do agree that the Creevys will be important in some way later on, but I have no idea how. bibphile From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 04:58:30 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:58:30 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape favoring Slytherin (was Re: Harry in Snape's DADA?) Message-ID: <410-2200386945830809@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76201 I wrote: > But until I see some canon showing that he really *does* favour the Slytherins (by awarding gratuitous house points, or by grading unfairly in their favour), I refuse to believe that he actually *is* favouring them. I think this is one area in which he's not getting the credit he deserves for being - dare I say it? - fair. >>> Severus "from evil" Snape replied: "Wendy, do you remember Snape removing points from Hermione for being a show off know it all? Or the time he removes points from Harry for having a library book outside of Hogwarts? Any time Harry or friends are caught defending themselves against a Slytherin, be it provoked or not Griffyndor always is the house to lose points." Now me again (Wendy): Well, yes, I remember those things (vividly ). And just in case my memory was faulty, I looked them up in the canon as well. And I was going to reply to this, but then I noticed that K had already done so: "That's not Snape *favouring* Slytherin that's him *discriminating* against Gryffindor - actually to be more accurate that's him discriminating against the trio who haven't exactly gone out of their way to impress him what with the constant cheek and the breaking into his storeroom and such - not that I think they usually deserve what he does for them but he does have some good reasons for thinking the worst of them (after all while they may often have the best of intentions they *are* usually up to something). And as for taking the points away from hermione - she deserved it. She *was* being an insufferable little show off, if Hermione insists on always answering everything the others will just not bother trying, especially the Gryffindors. There is some insentive for the Slytherins to keep trying, after all they don't want Gryffindor to look good but the other Gryffs can simply say well Hermione's going to get it anyway why bother." Now me (Wendy) again: Exactly, K. (And thanks for getting my back ). To which I'll add that *if* we say that Gryffindor is, indeed, being discriminated against, it favours not only Slytherin, but also Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. More importantly, it is very much a matter of opinion as to just how much "discrimination" is actually going on here. If we look at the points taken by Snape in PS/SS, I think the case for discrimination is pretty weak: in the first potions lesson, Snape takes 1 point away from Harry for "cheek." (page 103, UK hardcover). Unfair? Yes, probably. Harry *was* cheeky, but I'll also admit that he was provoked by an unwarranted attack by Snape. In that same potion's lesson (page 104), Snape takes a point away from Harry for not telling Neville not to add quills to his potion. This one is blatantly unfair. But it's still only *2* points. Then, Snape takes 5 points from Harry for having the book outside of the school. (page 134). I'll give you this one, too. Seems like Snape probably did make that rule up, and is just being a git. When the winner of the house cup ends the year with more than 400 points, it's difficult for me to swallow that Snape's taking 7 points away is being overly discriminatory. Unfair - yes. Heinously unfair? Nope. However, the other example to which you allude (at least I assume this is the one about which you're talking) is when, right before Christmas, Snape takes 5 points from Ron after Ron *physically attacks* Draco. (Page 144). Yes, Draco insulted Ron's family. Sure, that wasn't very nice of Draco. The guy's a git. We already knew that, though. And escalating to a physical attack is, in my mind, *much* worse. If I'd been McGonagall and I walked in on that, I'd have taken far more than 5 points from Ron. I think Snape was very lenient here. The only other instances of point taking I can recall off the top of my head are in PoA - Snape takes 10 points from Harry for being late to class (page 127, UK hardcover), and then takes 5 more when Harry refuses to follow Snape's command to sit down. While it's true that Lupin most likely wouldn't have taken those points, I fail to see how Snape can be criticised for doing so. Harry was late. Harry refused to follow instructions. Also in this class, Snape takes the five points from Hermione (page 129) that K has already addressed . As she pointed out, Hermione is hardly in a position to complain about these points. She also didn't follow Snape's instructions. Is he being a git? YES. Yes, I think he's being a git. But they are also defying his authority, and I don't fault him for taking points to restore his authority in the classroom. I repeat - I think he's being a git. I just don't think he's being an *unfair* git. And there are also a few instances that come to my mind when Snape didn't take points at all when he probably could have - for example, when he found Harry and Ron after they flew the car to Hogwarts at the beginning of CoS. He went to get McGonagall and Dumbledore. If he was really bent on taking point, I don't see why he couldn't have docked them each a couple of hundred points before going for D and McG. I think you could make a very good argument that they'd have deserved to lose those points, had Snape chosen to take them. I know I'm missing other instances where Snape takes points, but I think they'd still all fit within my argument. Here's what I think is happening: we're reading this from Harry's point of view, and he thinks Snape is being unfair. By telling the story this way, JKR (in typically sneaky fashion) has also managed to convince *us* that Snape is being unfair. But he really isn't, not usually. And the times that he is unfair, the actualy point total that he's taken away is negligible. (Compare Snape's actions to the points McGonagall takes away when she's taking points). JKR wants us to see this through Harry's eyes, and take on Harry's judgments against Snape, and so we do - at least until we look a bit more closely at what is actually happening. Does Ron feel unfairly treated when Snape takes the points? I'm sure he does. Draco insulted him, and Draco wasn't punished. Therefore, Snape's unfair. But the fact is (at least the way I see it) that Ron physically attacked another student, and deserved to have points taken. Whether or not Draco also deserved points taken is arguable. Frankly, I think Ron's behaviour was *much* worse than Draco's, and since Ron was only docked 5 points, it seems a fair resolution to the conflict, whether or not Ron and Harry agree (and let's remember that Harry has wrongfully accused Snape of evil intentions over and over and over again. And, his refusal to see Snape in anything but the most negative light was, IMO, a large factor contributing to Sirius' death). Ron and Harry can think Snape is unfair all they want. But when I read the text, and analyze Snape's actions from outside the "filter" of Harry's perspective, I don't think Snape is being even remotely as unfair as they accuse him of being. I think another factor here is simply the fact that the house system creates competition and division. It's obvious to me that Snape is not the only teacher/Head of House who is interested in having his house win the house cup. It is important enough to McGonagall that she took steps which "bent the rules" in order to promote her own house's chances of winning (giving Harry a place on the Quidditch team and allowing him, as a first year student, to have his own broom. A broom which, in all likelihood, she purchased for him). It seems to me that the house system by its very nature sets up this sort of competiton, and I don't think it's fair to say that Snape is trying to promote his own house at the expense of the others without acknowledging that this is the way the system functions, and the other Heads of House are probably equally as interested in having their houses win. Finally, after having said all this, I notice that my original question/concern has still not be addressed at all: Great elder one wrote: "And remember many of the "top" students in Snape's potions class didn't earn their positions, but got them because they were Slytherins and thus favored by Snape." Now me again: I have still seen absolutely no evidence whatsoever that this is true. In fact, we have evidence to the contrary (that Hermione beat out Draco in *every* exam). I'm still waiting for someone to make an argument (backed up with canon) that any student in Snape's class owes his or her position to Snape's favouritism. I think I'm gonna be waiting for a long time, though, because I just don't think there's any canon to prove this. Not within the first five books, anyhow. Please, if you have some, post it. I'll be happy to admit that I'm wrong about this if someone can actually convince me that I am. That hasn't happened yet, though. To sum up: Snape is a git. But he is not a heinously unfair git, and we have little or no evidence at all that he shows favouritism to the Slytherins, or that any of them have a higher position in class rank than they deserve based on Snape's favouritism. Cheers! Wendy From sngoing at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 05:00:17 2003 From: sngoing at yahoo.com (Steven) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:00:17 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? In-Reply-To: <3F346D94.60307@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Geoff Bannister wrote: > To have argued the point would have been to accept the > proposition that it mattered. Anyway, it was hardly the time to > engage in a debate on semantics. Debating the semantics is part of the fun, isn't it? Aren't we all engaged in speculation based on semantics used in the previous books. Isn't one of the great things about these books is that many clues to future events are given openly. All you have to do is know what the clues are. I think is fun to try and pick out these clues. One question I have always had, is why do some muggles have powers and others none. It is my speculation that when a muggle has powers, they have some wizard ancestor. It is my contention that if you researched each family tree of a muggle with powers, you would find a wizard in it. From sngoing at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 05:09:37 2003 From: sngoing at yahoo.com (Steven) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:09:37 -0000 Subject: Harry in Snape's DADA? In-Reply-To: <3F346C73.4030509@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > We have never seen Snape award points to anyone. I seem to recall Snape awarding points to Malfoy in DADA class, when he subbed for Lupin. I'm not sure and it is not something I will take the time to look up. However, it was surely obvious the basis in book 5, when Snape is about to take points unjustly from Harry when Gryindor has no points because of the injustice of Malfoy and his gang. Snape took that opportunity to kick them when they were down and snicker about it. I see no fairness in Snape. To me, he is a small pathetic man, who has one redeeming quality...loyalty to Dumbledore. Snap reminds me of the saying, "Small men delight in making bigger men appear smaller." From sngoing at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 05:21:07 2003 From: sngoing at yahoo.com (Steven) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:21:07 -0000 Subject: AtomBomb In-Reply-To: <20030808180021.26348.qmail@web10405.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, The Entwife wrote: > > Since places like Hogwarts and the Quidditch Cup > Stadium are spelled to make muggles avoid them (and > make muggle artifacts not work in them?) - if someone > was say flying overhead and dropped an atom-bomb - > would it go off? Would it fall crooked? What? What I find so fascinating is the name you have chosen and how it is so ironic in conjunction with your post. The Entwives were healers of the land and planters of trees. They left the Ents to make the brown lands green again. Here you are asking about the worst possible enemy of the land... an atom bomb. I find that totally ironic and fascinating. However, let me attempt to answer your question. First any delivery attempt would be futile. Any muggle trying to deliver it by hand would be diverted as all muggles are. A missile with its guidance systems would not be able to lock on the target. A plane, because nothing like can work over Hogwarts and the pilot being muggle would also be diverted, could fly over it. Now, if some lunatic wizard were to bring one into Hogwarts, it would not work because the electronic circuits needed to detonate the device would not work nor would the plastic exposives necessary to cause the chain reaction. I hope that helps. By the way, are you upset that the second Lord of the Rings movie ignored the tale of the Ents and their wives? I myself am still upset that left out Tom Bombadil. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 05:13:53 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:13:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] What can Harry teach Hermione in DA ? References: Message-ID: <3F348311.2020108@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76205 Doriane wrote: > Ever since I read Hermione's idea about the DA, I kept thinking: but > what does Harry have to teach *you* ??? Hermione certainly knows lots that the other don't, but my impression is that she did not take a particular interest in combat-type spells. So it could be that Harry knows more than she in this one area. But I think the main reason she wanted to start the was that she was not just thinking of herself. If she had just wanted to pick Harry's brain (or wand) for her own benefit, she could have said something like, "Ron and I helped you last year, so why don't we three get together some time and you can help us with DADA?" She didn't do that, but planned for a larger group all along. She saw not just her own problem, but the big picture, and came up with something to do about it. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 05:24:13 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:24:13 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What can Harry teach Hermione in DA ? References: Message-ID: <3F34857D.1030902@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76206 Doriane wrote: > "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > >>Two things - as other people have said, Hermione knows the >>theory. In PS, she freezes when the troll is in the bathroom. Harry >>and Ron do not. When she's faced with the Devil's Snare, she knows >>the description but doesn't think of her speciality, the bluebell >>flames. There's a world of difference between Lupin and Moody' s >>teaching, and Quirrel and Lockhart's. > > I slightly disagree with you. I don't think this is a matter of > theory vs practice. I think it's a matter of keeping a cold head vs > panicking. Hermione panicks in those situations, but she still knows > how to use the spells. She doesn't know them only theoretically, she > also knows them practically. Her only problem is that she freezes and > loses her head in scary times. Hermione does not panic, lose her head, or freeze. She does show fear, but that is because she is smarter than those around her, and appreciates the risks better. Regarding the troll incident, unlike Harry and Ron, Hermione was taken by surprise by the troll, and spent most of the time dodging his club. Regarding the devil's snare, she recognized what it was quickly enough to escape it (unlike the others), and came up with a way to attack it. She merely had a momentary lapse when she forgot that she was a witch. Since she had only known she was a witch for about 9 months, and since this was a moment of great stress, that is an understandable lapse. And as soon as Ron reminded her that she was a witch, she thought of an appropriate spell to use, and used it with effect. That isn't panic. From Lynx412 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 05:30:00 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 01:30:00 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in Snape's DADA? Message-ID: <17e.1eb53bf2.2c65e0d8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76207 In a message dated 8/9/03 1:10:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sngoing at yahoo.com writes: > when Snape is about to take points unjustly from Harry when Gryindor has no > points I interpreted his reaction differently. I can't help wondering if Snape might have been about to give Harry 'detention' for the remainder of the term and use that as an excuse to restart the Occulemency lessons. I do wonder if that is what would have happened if McGonagle hadn't returned at just that point. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 05:32:03 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:32:03 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76208 On page 124 (US hardcover) it says that Gryffindor hasn't won the House Cup in 6 years. On page 153 it says Gryffindor hasn't won the Quidditch cup since Charlie graduated. If Charlie was only 7 years older than HRH and graduated the year before they started, then it doesn't make sense for Gryffindors to say they haven't won it since Charlie left. The phrasing implies that Charlie is more than 7 years older than HRH and that Gryffindor hadn't won the Quidditch Cup in several years. Ravenclaw Bookworm From wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk Sat Aug 9 05:37:00 2003 From: wildean at shibaotu.fsworld.co.uk (Wildean) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:37:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charlie Weasley's ages References: Message-ID: <00f401c35e38$43df6800$02dc87d9@b5c9d5> No: HPFGUIDX 76209 From: "scoutmom21113" Subject: [HPforGrownups] Charlie Weasley's ages > On page 124 (US hardcover) it says that Gryffindor hasn't won the > House Cup in 6 years. On page 153 it says Gryffindor hasn't won the > Quidditch cup since Charlie graduated. They're separate things. The House Cup goes to the house with most points at the end of the year, the Quidditch Cup goes to the winner of the Quidditch championship. The Quidditch champion house could have a load of points-losing troublemakers among them (but not on the team). Wildean From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 05:37:49 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:37:49 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's ages In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > On page 124 (US hardcover) it says that Gryffindor hasn't won the > House Cup in 6 years. On page 153 it says Gryffindor hasn't won the > Quidditch cup since Charlie graduated. > > If Charlie was only 7 years older than HRH and graduated the year > before they started, then it doesn't make sense for Gryffindors to > say they haven't won it since Charlie left. The phrasing implies > that Charlie is more than 7 years older than HRH and that Gryffindor > hadn't won the Quidditch Cup in several years. > Ravenclaw Bookworm I agree. I go with Charlie being 11 years older than HRH. That would make it 4 years since Gryffindore had won the Quidditch cup. I think it would be 3 years at the very least by the phrasing. Besides, I don't think they've won since Oliver was on the team and I'll lay odds he was on the team his second year. bibphile From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 05:41:43 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:41:43 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's ages In-Reply-To: <00f401c35e38$43df6800$02dc87d9@b5c9d5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wildean" wrote: >scoutmom: > > On page 124 (US hardcover) it says that Gryffindor hasn't won the > > House Cup in 6 years. On page 153 it says Gryffindor hasn't won the > > Quidditch cup since Charlie graduated. > Wildean: > They're separate things. The House Cup goes to the house with most points at > the end of the year, the Quidditch Cup goes to the winner of the Quidditch > championship. > The Quidditch champion house could have a load of points-losing > troublemakers among them (but not on the team). Yes, we know they're different things. But they hadn't won the Quidditch Cup since Charlie finsihed school. If he'd just finished the year before, they wouldn't have said that. They hadn't won the House Cup in six years. we're not suggesting it has been six years since they won the Quidditch Cup, but rather that it has been four years (or three at the least). bibphile From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Aug 9 05:43:03 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:43:03 -0000 Subject: Clothes under robes, kilts (was Re: Snape's nationality and worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepingblyx" wrote: > > > Yes, but if you put it in context with magic practice, it would make > more sense why the robes in the Potterverse endured. It wouldn't > make sense that they would have just chosen to be naked underneath, > or robed even, for centuries just because they were doing it > thousands of years ago. Even people in Roman times did not usually > wear floor leagnth robes to anything but senate matters and > religious events because it wasn't practical. Which is why they > later started developing better covers for themselves for while they > rode horses and such. > > I think that J.K.R is making a point when she says they are in long > (sometimes hooded)robes and not simply tunics, togas, or loincloths > (lol), and why the school uniform is a robe, and not the grammar > school outfit they run around in in the movie, with a long cover. > That would signify a return to a tradition, not simply a cultural > fashion of days gone by. > > There is something significant about robes-- not just in > the "witchy" world, but in most faiths. To put on a robe suggests to > partake in something spiritual and important-- and that is really > the meaning behind all they learn in Hogwarts, and I think the use > of the robes in uniforn helps to convey that. That they would have > stayed robed at all, and naked underneath, would be tipping its hat > to ideas (true or not) held about ritual magic. Yes, I totally agree - but I think that there is also a cultural and historic significance. What has happened is that the ritual dress must have kicked off at certain time (I wonder if the founding of Hogwarts c. 1000 is of significance here and it would fit the dress code) and I think that the "formal" dress of that period may have informed the robes idea. As we know fashions change. Practicality will have dictated some additions/alterations to the original ritual dress - with the odd unreconstructed purist not wanting people to do any thing diffent. However, barring a few diehards - most people will have applied certain modern additions (especially underwear for comfort and keeping out the cold as much as anything). Personally, I would be all for a mode of dress that draped the body contours, the designer Issey Miyake does this and it is very flattering, LOL. Perhaps the REAL reason for the robes is that they hide the effects of all the carbs they consume at Hogwarts? June "It is a comfort in wretchedness To have companions in woe." Christopher Marlowe, Dr Faustus From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 05:54:05 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:54:05 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > I agree. I go with Charlie being 11 years older than HRH. That > would make it 4 years since Gryffindore had won the Quidditch cup. > I think it would be 3 years at the very least by the phrasing. > Besides, I don't think they've won since Oliver was on the team and > I'll lay odds he was on the team his second year. > > bibphile That makes sense. Using your estimate of 10 years difference between HRH and Charlie, I put the various ages in book 1 at: Bill=22?, Charlie=21, Percy=15, Fred & George=13, Ron=11, Ginny=10. (Ages 26, 25, 29, 18, 16, 15 in book 5.) The Lexicon says 12 years between Ron and Charlie, but that is calculated using book 3 not book 1. Ravenclaw Bookworm From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 06:04:30 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:04:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dudley Demented.... References: Message-ID: <3F348EEE.9010407@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76214 klmf1 wrote: > An observation on Dudley.... > > OoP- At Harry's trial on August 12th someone stated that muggles > can't see Dementors, but no where did I find anything about whether > they can *feel* them, at least not the way Dudley did (which was as > Wizards do). Dudley apparently did feel them though we don't know if > he actually saw them. I'm sure this must have come up before ..... > Does the fact that Dudley felt the Dementors suggest that perhaps > he's not really a muggle? I thought it interesting that no more was > made of this encounter in the book..... another foreshadowing snuck > in? I believe that when the dementors were first explained in PoA, it was stated that muggles can't see them, but can feel them. Ah, here it is, on p. 187 of the US edition (ch. 10). Lupin is talking: "Even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them." From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 05:49:05 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:49:05 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies References: Message-ID: <3F348B51.7070106@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76215 greymalkin0602 wrote: > > Why wasn't the prophecy from Book 3 on the shelf in the Ministry next > to the earlier one? They are filed chronologically. Or the earlier one was filed under 'V' for 'Voldemort'. Or there's a huge backlog and it hasn't been filed at all yet. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 05:28:03 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:28:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry=halfblood? References: Message-ID: <3F348663.4050108@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76216 Steven wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" > wrote: > >>To have argued the point would have been to accept the >>proposition that it mattered. Anyway, it was hardly the time to >>engage in a debate on semantics. > > Debating the semantics is part of the fun, isn't it? I meant it was not the time for Harry to debate semantics with Bellatrix. From tesseract197 at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 06:10:49 2003 From: tesseract197 at earthlink.net (tesseract197) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 06:10:49 -0000 Subject: Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: <20030809014559.87278.qmail@web12503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76217 Zeynep Oner: Does the Room produce a solution to all requirements, even complicated or immoral or illegal ones? What do you think? Joe: I don't think the Room of Requirement grants wishes persay. The only thing it gives is a location... For example, Wishing to kill voldemort wouldn't work, cause its wanting an action as such. However, wanting a location to do something would work. ie, Fred and George finding it as a hidden broom closet. Dumbledore need a bathroom late at night. Dobby need a location to hide Winky while she was drunk. They all wished for "locations." Kinda see what i'm saying? The wish or need would need to be in that form, not of wanting to just outright do something. It only supplies the place, not the actual wish. Buttercup: I think the room can only produce inanimate objects, not live people. I don't think it would give the answers to a test, but it could provide a lab to practice potionmaking. I'm sure there are limits to the room's abilities. Tess (me): What I find most interesting about the room is that Pansy was able to enter it to get the D.A.'s membership list after the raid: "Miss Parkinson ran into the Room of Requirement for me to see if they had left anything behind....We needed evidence and the room provided..." (Ch. 27, pg. 617, U.S. edition) When she entered, after all of the D.A. members had gone, was it still 'open' and set up for the meeting, with cushions on the floor, etc.? I can't imagine that it would be, because we're told that it can only be accessed by someone who desperately needs it for a specific purpose, and often even people who've found it once can never do so again (Ch. 18, pg. 386-87, U.S. edition). So I'm doubtful that she ran into the exact room that the D.A. had been practicing in, list and all. Or did she simply walk in front of it three times and think, "I need evidence that a secret meeting was being held here"? That's what the second part of Umbridge's statement seems to imply, IMO. If that's the case, then the room did indeed grant a wish for a material object and produce something other than a location, and it apparently doesn't care if what it produces will be used for an immoral purpose. Of course, there's always the possibility that walking in front of the room and thinking, "I need this room to contain exactly what it did twenty minutes ago" (or "the last time it was used" or "when Potter was here" or whatever), will open a copy of a previous setup, and therefore you could indeed enter (and take stuff out of) a version of the room that had been set up by and for someone else's needs. Aw, I never said it was a perfect theory. Tess From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Aug 9 06:38:51 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 06:38:51 -0000 Subject: Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: <20030809030405.61019.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > > > Buttercup: > > I think the room can only produce inanimate objects, > not live people. I don't think it would give the > answers to a test, but it could provide a lab to > practice potionmaking. I'm sure there are limits to > the room's abilities. But this is a clever thought, > I'll admit. I'm sure It'd produce the lab, it probably would produce all the books you would need to study to ace that test, and it *might* produce an answer key. It really depends on what sources it can draw from to stock the room. It seems to have access to some sort of library of books, but whether it has access to Snapes notes & paperwork is unknown. As far as Sirius and Voldemort, I don't think it would produce people, but it might produce devices to communicate with the dead, weapons, scrying devices to find Voldemort, and transportation... --Arcum From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 06:39:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 06:39:20 -0000 Subject: Should HP tell LV? Re: the Prophecy In-Reply-To: <3F259602.000001.23223@0016248096.ce1.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76219 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" wrote: > > Well if Voldemort can read Harry's thoughts and memories then Harry > doesn't have to tell him. Voldemort can find out for himself since > Harry hasn't learned to close down his mind. > > Sharon bboy_mn: Let's not read any more into this 'scar connection' between Harry and Voldemort than is actually there. They can share immediate strong emotion, and they can visualize real-time event occurring to the other person when those event have some emotional content behind them. There is no indication that I can recall that would lead us to believe that they can search through each other's thoughts and memories 'data mining' for information the way you would search a Pensieve. True Voldemort realizing that Harry was sensing his desires and seeing the events related to those desires, knew that he could inject or re-enforce those feelings to make Harrry feel them more strongly and see them more clearly, and even went so far as to create a desire that was so strong that he was able to inject false information (Sirius being torture) into those visions. But I really done see any evidence of either one of them being able to scan the general thoughts and memories of each other. The best Voldemort could do is put himself into Harry's mind in a way that would allow him to view real-time events, such as a meeting of the Order. But no actual mind reading. Just a thought. bboy_mn From eligro2000 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 06:57:15 2003 From: eligro2000 at yahoo.com (eligro2000) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 06:57:15 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76220 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: I think everyone is ignoring the fiendish potential of Colin > Creevey! The Creevey - Pettigrew similarities are striking aren't they (setting aside the fact that Colin's a muggle)? Colin, like Pettigrew, is a hanger-on rather than a real member of the group. Colin, like Pettigrew, is treated dismissively by his Potter idol. Colin, like Pettigrew, seems wimpy and ineffectual. Colin, like Pettigrew, seems to bask in any Potter-associated glory he can get. Colin, like Pettigrew, seems to be viewed by other students as generally forgettable. My counterintuitive conclusion: A Creevey gone bad seems just too Pettigrew. Having said that, it seems clear that someone in the next generation Order of the Phoenix (a.k.a. Dumbledore's Army) is or will become corrupt. Any guesses out there? El From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 06:58:51 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 06:58:51 -0000 Subject: Portkeys - Curses foiled again In-Reply-To: <3F346554.9050804@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Steve wrote: > > > >>T.M. Sommers > >> > >>One factor you didn't mention is that it probably requires an > >>intimate knowledge of the destination so that, > > bboy_mn: (org) > > > > If I want to be in a small field hidden from view just out side > > the town of Working, Surrey, or perhaps down a dark alley inside > > that city; having never been there, is that general knowledge and > > intent sufficient to produce the intended result? I'm not sure. > T.M.Sommers > > How do you know that the field is there? Or that it is not now > in the middle of a building? bboy_mn: Because somewhere outside of every town is a small field, and if you envision a small field then you end up in a small field not a building. > T.M.S.: > >From what we have seen of using a portkey, the traveller does not >have much control. > bboy_mn: True the traveller doesn't have much control, but the creator/programmer of the Portkey does. > T.M.S.: > > I am not saying that what I proposed is necessarily true, but it > would help explain the restrictions on using portkeys. On the > other hand, those restrictions might just be the ravings of a > paranoid bureaucracy. bboy_mn: Understoood; I admitted that this was kind of the main grey area related to magical travel. I find it hard to resolve any of the remaining questions until I have read first person examples of Apparation. I think those details will give us clues to resolving other forms of magical travel. I am assuming that during 6th, the student will begin learning Apparation so that when they turn 17, they are ready to take the test. Where is that next book? I need that next book. bboy_mn From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Sat Aug 9 07:04:45 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 07:04:45 -0000 Subject: Snape as Malfoy's "lapdog" In-Reply-To: <20030808233128.43181.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76222 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, A Featheringstonehaugh wrote: > Sorry for again losing track of what was written by whom... But Snape being Lucius Malfoy's "lapdog" isn't canon, merely an accusation hurled by Sirius. So, for those skeptics among us, the questions surrounding Snape's status with the DEs, his loyalty to the Order and his relationship with Voldemort is really still unanswered. As an unapologetic Snape fan, I choose to rely upon what has actually been written thus far and to accept the judgment of the people who have expressed confidence in him. (Dumbledore, the Weasley parents, Lupin...). > I'd also keep in mind Umbridge saying "I expected better, Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you!" to Snape, which sounds like regardless of whether he is Lucius Malfoy's lapdog, he is in his good graces. Also, we don't really know much about Snape's conversations with Quirrell. They may have left Voldemort with the impression that Snape was loyal to Voldemort but unsure of Quirell... --Arcum From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 07:08:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 07:08:35 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" > wrote: > > Geoff Bannister wrote: > > To have argued the point would have been to accept the > > proposition that it mattered. Anyway, it was hardly the time to > > engage in a debate on semantics. > Steven: > > Debating the semantics is part of the fun, isn't it? Aren't we all > engaged in speculation based on semantics ... bboy_mn: Yes, WE debate the semantics, but that was hardly the time or place or person with which Harry should have debated the semantics. I just don't see Harry and Bellatrix stopping in the middle of everything for along debate and a cup of tea while everyone else stood around twiddling their thumbs. I still say that the definition of halfblood is flexible and determined by the prejusdices of the people using the term, or the company and context in which it is used. For example, Dumbledore uses the term halfblood when referring to Harry, but considering the people and the context of the conversation, the participating parties had an unspoken agreement as to what Halfblood meant. That meaning did not comform to a technical definition but the the people and context. Beauty and blood are in the eye of the beholder. Just a thought. bboy_mn From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 07:31:48 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 07:31:48 +0000 Subject: (FILK) I Had A Brother Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76224 I Had A Brother (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _He Was My Brother_ by Simon and Garfunkel) I heard this song for the first time only a couple of days ago when I went to my local library and checked out the CD "Simon & Garfunkel - Live From New York City 1967". Such beautiful vocals. If you can lay your hands on this CD, then please do. Dedicated to CMC and all my fellow filkers Here is a snippet of the original so you can get the gist...wish I could've given you the whole thing, though (open Windows, Real Audio ain't working) http://www.buy.com/retail/music/product.asp?sku=60561628 Sorry, no Midi. OoP, chapter 6 Sirius, with acoustic guitar: I had a brother Regulus was his name Pride of our mother A much better son she'd often say Lies he'd follow Believed that Purebloods were better Right little hero He joined Voldemort and his Death Eaters I heard how Regulus died Got in too far, he had some doubt Murdered by Voldemort Because he wanted to back out I had a brother Now I am the last Black left He soon discovered It's a life time of service or it's death, oh God! A life time of service or it's death -Gail B...celebrating one year of filking today. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 helps eliminate e-mail viruses. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 09:28:32 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 09:28:32 -0000 Subject: Something I would like to see...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76225 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote: > I would like to find out that Fred and George have made Harry a > secret partner in their Magic Joke Shoppe. Harry gave them the start > up capital and I would think it would be a great jesture to make him > an unsuspecting partner. Even it is just a token, like 10%. It is > not a big thing, but something I would like to see, as it shows good > character. Though Fred and George are pranksters, I think they are > young men of good character. bboy_mn: My thoughts exactly. People keep wondering what Harry will do when he gets out of school. Some say Auror, but I think he will have had his fill of fighting. Some say Quidditch Player, and as much as he likes flying, I don't think he is going to want to continue in the publc eye. So, here is what I see happening. At some point Fred and George will try to pay the money back to Harry. They will view it as a loan, or at least, an investment. But Harry will refuse to take the money. Fred and George will just re-invest the money back into the company and as you said, give Harry a share of the company. Although, I think more like 25% up to as much as 50%. The company will certainly be successful and branch out into other areas; Weasley Wildfire Wiz-Bang Fireworks is a whole company in and of itself. They will keep reinvesting Harry's share of the money until the company and the money get so big, they have to finally tell Harry. After that, Harry will be able to live a comfortable quiet life off the inheritance he has and his investment income for Weasley enterprises. Despite his current desire to be an Auror, I think in the end, he will be more interested in living a quiet private life. Just a thought. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Aug 9 10:30:23 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:30:23 -0000 Subject: AtomBomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steven" wrote: > > Since places like Hogwarts and the Quidditch Cup > > Stadium are spelled to make muggles avoid them (and > > make muggle artifacts not work in them?) - if someone > > was say flying overhead and dropped an atom-bomb - > > would it go off? Would it fall crooked? What? > Ah! a FEATHERBOA fan! IMO it could work if set up correctly. Note that birds have no trouble flying over Hogwarts, so a non-technological delivery method should allow the bomb to free-fall without any difficulties. Note also that Harry had a watch that only malfunctioned after the task in the lake in GoF. Note that chemical reactions can take place in Hogwarts without much trouble (even a candle burning in a lantern is a chemical reaction). Note that neither accuracy nor timing is essential. Get it within a mile and it doesn't matter if it's an air burst or ground burst. So, a stand-off launch (fast jet lobs the bomb upwards from a distance of about 3-5 miles), the bomb describes a parabolic curve (like a ball thrown away from you) descending onto the target without any technological guidance. A clockwork or chemical fuse (common in WWII) triggers the explosive - yet another chemical reaction, that forces the sub-critical masses together. The nuclear reaction is an inherent property of the materials used, not a technological gimmick. And the result is - Crispy wizards! Kneasy who has an evil mind From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 10:54:10 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:54:10 -0000 Subject: The Best/Touching Moments In OOTP In-Reply-To: <20030809032904.55476.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: Buttercup: > What are your favorite scenes in OOTP? I wasn't ready > to reread the whole book again, so I just reread my > favorite parts, like the Occlumency lessons with Snape > (I mean,..Sir), Sirius' death, and Chapter 37 (The > Lost Prophecy) are a few. Then when I got to the > incident where Harry's looking into the mirror and > calling, "Sirius Black," that was a heart wrencher. It > didn't affect me that way during the first read. JKR > sure knows how to put your heart through a wringer > washer. > Geoff: Hmmm... Difficult. Very difficult. (1) Certainly the whole of the section from Lucius Malfoy's appearance in the Department of Mysteries right through to Dumbledore's explanation why he didn't make Harry a prefect. (2) The marvellous put down McGonagall uses on Umbridge about the DADA report during the careers interview. In fact MM's exchanges with DJU all through the book. (3) The tricks and techniques used by the students to pass round Harry's interview in the Quibbler after Umbridge issued Decree no 27 baning the magazine. That's for starters anyway. Geoff From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Fri Aug 8 21:40:07 2003 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 21:40:07 -0000 Subject: Snape DE/spy status (WAS Snape and Redemption Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76228 If the theory Snape - Vampire was true, he can spy like a bat. I believe in the Snape - Vampire theory but what about Snape - Crow? Lupin said something like "There are three animagus in Hogwarts that MOM dont know. I think he was not talking about the marauders. Was he? Another one can be Dumbledore - bee (he don't need a cloak to be invisible, ah?) PD: In Disney's snowhite, a crow spies on the witch while she was making the potion ... From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 22:23:11 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 22:23:11 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76229 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "president0084" wrote: > If Sirius was on the run from the MOM so how did it come about that > he inherited the house? > > Should it not have gone to the Malfoys as the next of kin? It would only go to the Malfoys if Mrs. Black were to disinherit her son. We do not know that she did, though we certainly know that her portrait was still calling Sirius her son ... if a bit abusively. > On a different topic as a Lutheran do you believe in Free Will. > J.K. Rowling is from the UK were the majority are either Anglican or > Church or England its been a while since I've studied the > differences in religions but isn't predetermination a part of Martin > Luther's philosophy (theology)? It is "predestination," not "predetermination," and it is from Calvin (sans Hobbes), not Luther. The concept is easily misunderstood, as Calvin was writing in a time when relatively little was understood about much of modern physics, and there was little in the way of a developed language for the discussion of time as a theoretical abstraction. The best way to deal with predestination as presented by Calvin (as opposed to assorted neo-Calvinist interpretations) is that Calvin was trying to say that God exists outside time, and so we (living within the confines of linear and unidirectional time) have a free will, but God (existing outside the confines of the linear, unidirectional time) knows the full courses of our lives. Thus God knows from before creation where we will end up, even if it is by our own choices that we arrive there. > In the sixth book we are now confronted with a situation > Free will V's Predetermination > > But at the end of GOF Dumbledore said we all have choices to make? > But Harry has no Choice... The Prophecy doesn't say who which will live, and Harry's choices will certainly play a role in deciding whether his "fate" is to live or to die. > Is the Prophecy there to mislead us? It may well be misleading more than just us. Remember, the prophecy COULD have been about Neville, but due to the events that resulted in Harrying having his nifty scar, even Dumbledore has concluded that Harry is "The One." But, the prophecy doesn't say WHEN Voldemort's bane will be marked by him as his equal. We also know that Voldemort still doesn't see Harry as his equal, but as a meddlesome little boy who keeps being terribly inconvenient to Voldemort's plans. Thus, it is still THEORETICALLY possible that Neville will end up as "The One," however unlikely I personal believe this to be. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 8 23:58:50 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 23:58:50 -0000 Subject: Grimauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76230 > All this talk of entitlements and inheritance goes to the next male > in line, doesn't that apply only to nobility? And certainly none > of the wizards in the Black family line seem to be members of the > British Peerage. So, therefore, do the laws of inheritance then > apply? If not, then Sirius could have left Grimauld Place and any > and all of his funds to whomever he wished. That, if he did make > out a will, would have been Harry. > > I think we need to get in touch with someone who understands the > British Laws of inheritance. If there is anyone out there who > understands all of that legal "mumbo jumbo" perhaps they could > clear this up. > > Donna Laura: No, entailments were used here in the States as well (if you've ever read "To Kill A Mockingbird" you may recall a reference to one.) And women couldn't own or inherit property in their own names in Britain until the Married Women's Property Act was passed, in the mid to late 19th century IIRC. Which makes me wonder if a male-only entailment would even be valid under contemporary British civil law. If it has to stay in the family, I hope Grimmauld Place goes to Tonks! From fc26det at aol.com Sat Aug 9 00:11:32 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 00:11:32 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76231 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens > wrote: > >> > > > Besides, Ginny said she didn't want Ron to know. She > > never said a word about her parents. > > > I agree. Molly was giggling with both Hermione and Ginny about > brewing love potions. She doesn't seem to have any problem with > Ginny being an adolecent. I see no reason to think she'd have a > problem with Ginny seeing Micheal, especially since it don't seem to > have been anywhere near serious. > > And like you said, there wasn't even the slighest indication she > didn't want her parents to know. It seems to have been just Ron she > was sure would take it badly. > > bibphile Me: Look at the way Ron reacted to Hermoine at the Yule ball. Can you blame Ginny for not wanting to tell him that she liked a boy. He even had a fit about her going with Neville. I can't blame her for not wanting him to know anything about a boy she liked. He also made snide remarks about Cho. I think Ron is very overprotective of his loved ones (kinda like his Mom) and no matter who any of them take a fancy to, he will have a problem with them. Susan From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 10:50:35 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 10:50:35 -0000 Subject: Portkeys - Curses foiled again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76232 > > Where is that next book? I need that next book. > > bboy_mn I totally agree. Does anyone have an inkling as to the publication date of the next book? It would certainly answer any number of questions. For example, I would like to know what is in the room where there is a power being studied. The power Harry has so much of. Maybe I am being a little dense, but I just can't figure that one out. Donna From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 11:07:53 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:07:53 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76233 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" > wrote: > > I agree. I go with Charlie being 11 years older than HRH. That > > would make it 4 years since Gryffindore had won the Quidditch > cup. > > I think it would be 3 years at the very least by the phrasing. > > Besides, I don't think they've won since Oliver was on the team > and > > I'll lay odds he was on the team his second year. > > > > bibphile > Ravenclaw Bookworm: > That makes sense. Using your estimate of 10 years difference between > HRH and Charlie, I put the various ages in book 1 at: Bill=22?, > Charlie=21, Percy=15, Fred & George=13, Ron=11, Ginny=10. (Ages 26, > 25, 29, 18, 16, 15 in book 5.) The Lexicon says 12 years between > Ron and Charlie, but that is calculated using book 3 not book 1. Geoff: I have just tried to follow this thread and turned up another interesting sideline. POA p.184 "The Patronus". MaGonagall talking to Harry as she gives back the Firebolt... "And Potter - /do/ try and win, won't you? Or we'll be out of the running for the eighth year in a row, as Professor Snape was kind enough to remind me only last night...." How does that square with our other information? Geoff From o_caipora at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 01:14:18 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:14:18 -0000 Subject: Grimmauld Place In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76234 Think of entailment as a "permanent sticking spell" for property. A legal way of insuring it doesn't leave the family. wrote: > > If Sirius was on the run from the MOM so how did it come about > > that he inherited the house? "kiricat2001" wrote: > A possible explanation was posted recently dealing with the the > concept of entailment. This is not mine - I'm merely passing along > what I remember. That was me. Essentially, the argument is: Sirius's parent's disliked him enough to blast him from the tapestry, but still left him the house. Why? Maybe they were left the house under the terms of wills that insisted they leave it to their eldest. If they were powerless to alter the terms, Sirius too might not be entirely free to will the property to whom he wished. As a meta-argument, entailment is a common plot device in the sort of books Rowling is likely to have read. From what we've been told, the heir is clearly Draco, and that's too strange to be a coincidence. Someone else asked IIRC, How does the heir get into Grimmauld Place? How did Sirius get in? Is there some magic? Note the first description of the door to Grimmauld Place: "Its plack paint was shabby and scratched. The silver door knocker was in the form of a twisted serpent. There was no keyhole or letter box." On page 77, we read of "...Tonks at the front door, magically sealing its many locks and bolts behind those who had just left." The doorbell [not knocker, odd] is constantly ringing, letting in such OOtP luminaries as Snape and McGonnegal. Nobody seems to have a key, which fits with the lack of a keyhole. AFAIK, that door is only ever opened from the inside. Could it be a magic door that opens only to the heir to the House of Black? We've met a magic chamber than only opens to the Heir of Slytherin. Dumbledone is able to seal off the Headmaster's Office so that Umbridge can't get in, through the door or by any other means. Merlin made a sword recognize an heir, too. So maybe only Sirius could open that door from without. > Of course, this doesn't take tax issues into question. If Convict! > Sirius inherits the property, but doesn't fill out the proper forms > to pay taxes because he's busy fighting to keep his sanity in > Azkaban, can the Ministry, at some point, claim the property in > question because of back taxes owed? Are there any references to wizard taxes in the books? Maybe the wizard world sustains itself with taxes levied on Muggles. Will Rodgers said, "Just be happy you're not getting all the government you're paying for." Maybe some part of that difference between what we pay and what we get is secretly diverted to support St. Mungo's. - Caipora From Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 01:34:12 2003 From: Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 01:34:12 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black is Stubby Boardman???? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76235 Forgive me if this has been discussed before; I read as many posts as I can, but...! I noticed that Regulus Black, Sirius' kid brother and murdered DE, had a date of death "fifteen years previously" (p.112). And Stubby Boardman "retired from public life after being struck in the ear by a turnip...nearly fifteen years ago" (p192). Maybe Regulus is in hiding, impersonating Stubby? Maybe the REAL Stubby was Regulus all along? Or maybe Stubby died from the turnip in the ear, and Regulus, on the run from Voldemort, knowing he would get no protection from the MoM, took Stubby's identity. Why hasn't he come out of hiding since? Well, maybe he likes being Stubby? Or, maybe he's still scared, both of Voldy's old supporters and the MoM (big brother Sirius being the most notorious prisoner in Azkaban probably didn't help...) Probably not true, but wouldn't it be fun if Stubby, AKA Regulus Black, turns up in Book Six? Marmelade's Mom From RACH911 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 02:20:02 2003 From: RACH911 at aol.com (rach9112000) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:20:02 -0000 Subject: Snape's fear of Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76236 After rereading OotP it still bothers me why Snape chose to look for Harry in the forest after Harry had given Snape the cryptic clue of "padfoot" at the Ministry. I know he saw him go into the forest with Umbridge, however I do not put it down to pure coincidence that Snape stayed behind to look for Harry in the forest whilst the rest in the order went to the Ministry. I think for some reason Snape did not want Voldemort or the death eaters to know of Snapes efforts to help Harry. He could not risk running in to them and being seen as actively going against Voldemort.I think regardless of Snapes hatred for Harry's father, Snape no longer supports Voldemort and therefore will help Harry when necessary even though his hatred for his father has passed on to also not liking harry. In addition, perhaps Snape is also for some reason unwillingly indebted to Voldemort, which is why he makes no effort to hide his dislike for Harry. And even will highlight it for everyone to see by openly unfairly treating him. So that on appearance, it may appear to death eaters, such as the Malfoys, that Snape is doing his best to ward off Harry. When infact, this is just a cover up for his support of Dumbledore etc. Rachel From carishka2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 02:37:51 2003 From: carishka2002 at yahoo.com (Karina Aleksandrova) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:37:51 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76237 > > From: "sarah_haining" > > > >I was re-reading PoA recently and during Harry and Hermione's Time - > >Turner shenanigans a thought occurred to me. I haven't been reading > >the 'hints that Sirius would die' posts (still not over it:) so > >forgive me if this has already been brought up. Anyhoo, we know that > >it is against one of the strictest Wizarding laws to go back and > >alter time - it simply should not be done unless under very > >safe/strict circumstances. Harry and Hermione should not have by > >rights been using it, thus, Sirius was destined to die. He was > >supposed to die that night at the hands (sorry, mouth ;) of the > >Dementors. The fact that he was saved by Harry simply meant that he > >was essentially living on borrowed time; two years of it to be > >precise. Now me: Harry and Hermione hadn't altered the past. They were meant to save Sirus and Buckbeak, and Dumbledore knew that (I do not know how) and that's why he sent them into the past - not to change it, but to bring it about. At the time in the hospital wing, when Dumbledore had told them what they had to do, all of it had already happened. And I don't think he would have sent them if it was against the laws about altering time. Betsy Cort?s wrote: > In the other hand, Sirius' theory it's very interesting. It made me wonder, > can Harry (with Dumbledore's help, of course) go back in time and save > Sirius??? Me again: No. The most important argument is JK Rowling's own words, when she was asked in one of the interviews (or maybe chats), whether Harry's parents can be brought to life (I'm paraphrasing), she said that she has decided that one of the things magic cannot do is bring back the dead. Magic can heal faster and better than muggle medicine, so there is hope if a person is close to death, but hasn't died yet. Once the person has died however, it's irreversible. Sirius is dead. As for going back in time part, from what we know so far, the past cannot be changed. When Harry and Hermione went back in time in PoA they haven't changed the past. ~Carina From mhaslam at ozemail.com.au Sat Aug 9 03:59:02 2003 From: mhaslam at ozemail.com.au (Me1is) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:59:02 -0000 Subject: That 'Philological' Stone Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76238 Hi All, I was re-reading OOP (UK version) and noticed that when they had their first meeting in the Hogshead Neville made reference to the Philosophers stone. This happened when everyone was discussing all the great things Harry had done in the past. (OOP pg 305, UK): "'And in our first year,' said Neville to the group at large, 'he saved that Philological Stone - ' 'Philosopher's,' Hissed Hermione. 'Yes, that - from You-Know-Who,' finished Neville" I was wondering what this quote was in the US version of the book, since Neville must have made a different blunder for the word 'Sorcerer' From carishka2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 04:12:27 2003 From: carishka2002 at yahoo.com (Karina Aleksandrova) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:12:27 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > An observation on Dudley.... > > OoP- At Harry's trial on August 12th someone stated that muggles > can't see Dementors, but no where did I find anything about whether > they can *feel* them, at least not the way Dudley did (which was as > Wizards do). Dudley apparently did feel them though we don't know if > he actually saw them. I'm sure this must have come up before ..... > Does the fact that Dudley felt the Dementors suggest that perhaps > he's not really a muggle? I thought it interesting that no more was > made of this encounter in the book..... another foreshadowing snuck > in? > > Karen F Remus Lupin said in PoA ('Marauder's Map'), 'Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth. [...]Even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them.' So whether Dudley is a muggle or a wizard he would feel Dementors. And to me it seemed that he didn't see them - he ran right at one, and later he seemed to think it was all Harry's fault. He didn't tell his parents of cloaked figures, simply said 'Him', so unless he saw a Dementor before (which is unlikely), I assume he meant Harry. ~Carina From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 11:12:44 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:12:44 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's ages In-Reply-To: <00f401c35e38$43df6800$02dc87d9@b5c9d5> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76240 Sorry. Forget my last mail on this one. My Up thread picked up the story at 76208 which doesn't mention the number of years re Quidditch. The thread had changed names along the way. Geoff From sberinsky at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 06:24:33 2003 From: sberinsky at yahoo.com (Stacy Berinsky) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 23:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPForGrownups] Who is the head of Ravenclaw house? Message-ID: <20030809062433.92985.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76241 This question has long bothered me. We know that snape is head of slytherin, mcgonagall head of gryffindor, and in GoF, Sprout is stated to be head of Hufflepuff. So what about Ravenclaw? I have combed through my books, and never found a mention. Does anyone know? --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 11:15:37 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:15:37 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: <3F348B51.7070106@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76242 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > greymalkin0602 wrote: > > > > Why wasn't the prophecy from Book 3 on the shelf in the Ministry next > > to the earlier one? > > They are filed chronologically. Or the earlier one was filed > under 'V' for 'Voldemort'. Or there's a huge backlog and it > hasn't been filed at all yet. Are you referring to the prophecy Trelawney made in Harry's hearing? If so, surely it would depend on whether Dumbledore reported it (Harry wouldn't know about the prophecy "Library"). From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 9 11:18:03 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:18:03 -0000 Subject: Who is the head of Ravenclaw house? In-Reply-To: <20030809062433.92985.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Stacy Berinsky wrote: > This question has long bothered me. We know that snape is head of slytherin, mcgonagall head of gryffindor, and in GoF, Sprout is stated to be head of Hufflepuff. So what about Ravenclaw? I have combed through my books, and never found a mention. Does anyone know? > The head of Ravenclaw is Professor Flitwick. It's not in any of the books, instead it was told us by JKR in a Barnes and Noble chat on October 2000. If you want to look up interviews, Aberforth's Goat has many transcripts on line http://www.angelfire.com/magic/aberforthsgoat/index.html If you type in 'Flitwick', for example, you'll get the interview reference I quoted above. Pip!Squeak From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 11:20:51 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:20:51 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? In-Reply-To: <3F348663.4050108@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Steven wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" > > wrote: > > > >>To have argued the point would have been to accept the > >>proposition that it mattered. Anyway, it was hardly the time to > >>engage in a debate on semantics. > > > > Debating the semantics is part of the fun, isn't it? > T M Sommers: > I meant it was not the time for Harry to debate semantics with > Bellatrix. Geoff: Possibly. But in the heat of the moment, HP might have responded with something semantic like "Who are you calling a half-blood, you old hag?" or some equally suitable comment. Instead, he turns the comment back on her. Geoff From fc26det at aol.com Sat Aug 9 02:47:51 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:47:51 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76245 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > An observation on Dudley.... > > OoP- At Harry's trial on August 12th someone stated that muggles > can't see Dementors, but no where did I find anything about whether > they can *feel* them, at least not the way Dudley did (which was as > Wizards do). Dudley apparently did feel them though we don't know if > he actually saw them. I'm sure this must have come up before ..... > Does the fact that Dudley felt the Dementors suggest that perhaps > he's not really a muggle? I thought it interesting that no more was > made of this encounter in the book..... another foreshadowing snuck > in? > > Karen F Hi Karen, I think in POA Lupin tells Harry that muggles feel the effects of the dementors too but blame it on doldrums or some such thing. Muggles just don't see them. Susan From darkkitten at mac.com Sat Aug 9 02:53:52 2003 From: darkkitten at mac.com (darkkitten2) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:53:52 -0000 Subject: Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76246 zeydnep (did I get that right?) wrote: > > I was wondering how Harry will figure out a way to > > kill Voldemort, and I thought what would happen if he > > went there thinking "I need to kill Voldemort, I need > > to kill Voldemort". Would Voldemort really somehow > > come to the Room of Requirement? From that point I > > wondered what would happen if he went there thinking, > > "I need to pass my Potions final" or "I need to see > > and talk to Sirius one more time." Does the Room > > produce a solution to all requirements, even > > complicated or immoral or illegal ones? What do you > > think? and Joe answered: > Although I see where your train of thought is. I don't think the > Room of Requirement grants wishes persay. > > The only thing it gives is a location... For example, Wishing to kill > voldemort wouldn't work, cause its wanting an action as such. > However, wanting a location to do something would work. > > ie, Fred and George finding it as a hidden broom closet. Dumbledore > need a bathroom late at night. Dobby need a location to hide Winky > while she was drunk. They all wished for "locations." > > Kinda see what i'm saying? The wish or need would need to be in that > form, not of wanting to just outright do something. It only supplies > the place, not the actual wish. Hmm, I think Joe's got it right there, but what a fascinating idea! So, OK... the Room of Requirement might only grant you a place where you can do what you need to, but could that go partway toward granting your wish? Could you find out information from it about what you'd need to pull something off? Like would the veil appear if Harry wanted to talk to Sirius, or would some useful bit of info appear if he was in an utter fury and determined to off Voldemort, about where he needed to be to do so? Or can you only access the Room of Requirement when you have everything you need to achieve what you want? It's also interesting that it is not infallible, as the DA studies are discovered... darkkitten From farmgirlnow at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 03:01:36 2003 From: farmgirlnow at hotmail.com (farmcatnow) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:01:36 -0000 Subject: Tonks and Luna In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Ok all you OOP experts. I have been pondering this all day. > Dumbledore told Harry at the end of the book that he had been > watching him much closer than he could imagine. Now, I wonder, since > Tonks is a metamorphmagis, is it possible that she is Luna? I do not > recall them ever being in the same room together at the MOM. Tonks > has the type of personality to pull off Luna. And Luna has been at > the school since Ginny has been so she could have been watching Harry > from afar. Isn't it strange that when Harry needs closer watching > Luna becomes a major character? Both girls are a little "out there". > Just wondering how DD has been keeping such a close watch on Potter > and the true purpose for Tonks to be a metamorphmagis. > Susan MY THOUGHTS: I have been wondering if Tonks could be Crookshanks. I think Crookshanks is "somebody" but I haven't figured out who. Crookshanks was out walking with Sirius (in dog form) in Azkaban, so it is someone that Sirius knows (even though Tonks didn't appear until book 5). Also, perhaps Dumbledore is an animagus and watches Harry in that way. Julie From farmgirlnow at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 03:12:55 2003 From: farmgirlnow at hotmail.com (farmcatnow) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:12:55 -0000 Subject: Oop & PoA: Harry and Neville's "connection" and foreshadowing In-Reply-To: <20030808150836.11068.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76248 > > Wrt the new `connection' between Neville and Harry, > via the Prophecy, did anyone else instantly think of > the Night Bus scene in PoA? When Harry has to come up > with a new identity, he seizes upon Neville's name. > This struck me as odd at the time, but perhaps less so > now given JKR's love of foreshadowing ? are there any > other occasions in the books where Harry identifies > with Neville? Or where they are described in similar > ways? Or where he envies him (I doubt it)? I can't > think of any off hand, but I wouldn't be surprised if > they were there, somewhere > > Vanessa MY THOUGHTS: There seem to be A LOT of Harry/Neville references now that I am re- reading the books. One that strikes me (because I am 1/2 way through PoA) When he is worried about quiddich, Harry has a dream where he forgot to go to the game and they replaced him with Neville. Julie From fc26det at aol.com Sat Aug 9 00:23:02 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 00:23:02 -0000 Subject: Animagus Harry / Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76249 > > > > Garrett: > > Lupin said that james was a stag, and i think the animal you turn > > into is aslo your patronus > > Garrett > > now me (Shirley): > No offense, but do you have a cite for that? > > I thought it was really cool that Harry's patronus turned out to be > a stag, when his dad's animagus form was also a stag, but I don't > recall reading anywhere that one's patronus is an indicator of > one's animagus form (if any), or vice versa. > Me: I dont think there can really be any cite for this as I think there are only about 31 registered animagi in the wizarding world. (plus the 5 unregistered). I doubt that with such a low number of animagi out there that a true pattern can be found. Susan From james at whitsonweb.com Sat Aug 9 04:08:05 2003 From: james at whitsonweb.com (James R Whitson) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:08:05 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76250 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > An observation on Dudley.... > OoP- At Harry's trial on August 12th someone stated that muggles > can't see Dementors, but no where did I find anything about whether > they can *feel* them, at least not the way Dudley did (which was as > Wizards do). In POA Lupin tells Harry that "even muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them". - James From mkeller01 at alltel.net Sat Aug 9 11:38:28 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:38:28 -0000 Subject: That 'Philological' Stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Me1is" wrote: > Hi All, > > I was re-reading OOP (UK version) and noticed that when they had > their first meeting in the Hogshead Neville made reference to the > Philosophers stone. This happened when everyone was discussing all > the great things Harry had done in the past. > > (OOP pg 305, UK): > "'And in our first year,' said Neville to the group at large, 'he > saved that Philological Stone - ' > 'Philosopher's,' Hissed Hermione. > 'Yes, that - from You-Know-Who,' finished Neville" > > I was wondering what this quote was in the US version of the book, > since Neville must have made a different blunder for the > word 'Sorcerer' (OOP p. 342,US): "'And in our first year,' said Neville to the group at large, 'he saved that Sorcerous Stone- ' 'Sorcerer's,' Hissed Hermione. 'Yes, that - from You-Know-Who,' finished Neville." Toodles, Toad From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 12:02:38 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 05:02:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Something I would like to see...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809120238.71831.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76252 --- Steve wrote: > > I would like to find out that Fred and George have > made Harry a > > secret partner in their Magic Joke Shoppe. Harry > gave them the start > > up capital and I would think it would be a great > jesture to make him > > an unsuspecting partner. Even it is just a token, > like 10%. It is > > not a big thing, but something I would like to > see, as it shows good > > character. Though Fred and George are pranksters, > I think they are > > young men of good character. > Buttercup: That would be great to see. But what I wished Harry had done was give part of his Tri-Wizard winnings to Lupin. Lupin was very nice to him, teaching him the Patronus spell and just being supportive and caring in POA. And he probably needs the money more than Fred and George. Fred and George are very ambitious with their joke shop idea and I think they would have come up with the money another way. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From KLMF at aol.com Sat Aug 9 12:10:47 2003 From: KLMF at aol.com (klmf1) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 12:10:47 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James R Whitson" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klmf1" wrote: > > An observation on Dudley.... > > OoP- At Harry's trial on August 12th someone stated that muggles > > can't see Dementors, but no where did I find anything about whether > > they can *feel* them, at least not the way Dudley did (which was as > > Wizards do). > > > In POA Lupin tells Harry that "even muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them". > > - James Yah, I knew a bunch of you would point this out...Dudley's reaction, though, was more extreme than what I would have expected of a muggle. For a muggle I envisioned something more along the lines of a minor fit of depression (which could be hormonal, after all ;) or is that just another muggle excuse?)Dudley seemed to get the full blow of a dementor's effects. I don't have the book in front of me but I also got the impression that Dudley noticed things like the stars going out and everything going dark, which is a visual thing. Adding to my suspicions, of course, is Aunt Petunia's knowledge of them... Karen F From silmariel at telefonica.net Sat Aug 9 12:16:13 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:16:13 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: AtomBomb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308091416.13563.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76254 Kneasy: < Message-ID: <20030809122313.68980.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76255 After reading the book, I thought he would share this important piece of information with them, but now I'm not so sure. There have been posts predicting Harry becoming more reclusive in future books, and I think I'll have to agree. Some private things he only shared with Sirius (like Snape's memory of his parents). And now that he's gone, I don't think anyone can ever fill that void. I have a feeling that if anyone else finds out (Ron, Hermione, members of the Order), it'll be by accident. I don't think Harry will divulge this information freely. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 13:17:14 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:17:14 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > POA p.184 "The Patronus". MaGonagall talking to Harry as she gives > back the Firebolt... > > "And Potter - /do/ try and win, won't you? Or we'll be out of the > running for the eighth year in a row, as Professor Snape was kind > enough to remind me only last night...." > > How does that square with our other information? > > Geoff I'd forgotten about that. Charlie would have to be 12 years older than HRH instead of ten. That would mean they haven't won the quidditch cup since before Oliver and Percy have been at Hogwarts. I've been going with 11, but that line means it has to be 12. (If the last time they won was Charlie's seventh year, and it seems to be). Thanks for the correction. bibphile bibphile From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 13:40:21 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:40:21 -0000 Subject: Something I would like to see...... In-Reply-To: <20030809120238.71831.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > --- Steve wrote: > > > > I would like to find out that Fred and George have > > made Harry a > > > secret partner in their Magic Joke Shoppe. Harry > > gave them the start > > > up capital and I would think it would be a great > > jesture to make him > > > an unsuspecting partner. Even it is just a token, > > like 10%. It is > > > not a big thing, but something I would like to > > see, as it shows good > > > character. Though Fred and George are pranksters, > > I think they are > > > young men of good character. > > > Butercup: > That would be great to see. But what I wished Harry > had done was give part of his Tri-Wizard winnings to > Lupin. Lupin was very nice to him, teaching him the > Patronus spell and just being supportive and caring in > POA. And he probably needs the money more than Fred > and George. Fred and George are very ambitious with > their joke shop idea and I think they would have come > up with the money another way. > Bear in mind that Lupin had been gone from Hogwarts for a year by then; Harry probably wouldn't know where to contact Rl and, again, following Cedric's death the idea might not have come. He just wanted to be rid of the money I think. Geoff From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 14:17:31 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809141731.37827.qmail@web20001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76258 --- S Handel wrote: > > Me: > Look at the way Ron reacted to Hermoine at the Yule > ball. Can you > blame Ginny for not wanting to tell him that she > liked a boy. He > even had a fit about her going with Neville. I > can't blame her for > not wanting him to know anything about a boy she > liked. He also made > snide remarks about Cho. I think Ron is very > overprotective of his > loved ones (kinda like his Mom) and no matter who > any of them take a > fancy to, he will have a problem with them. > Susan I don't blame her at all; I was just saying I didn't think she cared bout her parents knowing. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 14:26:30 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 07:26:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809142630.32388.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76259 --- eligro2000 wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > > > wrote: I think everyone is ignoring the fiendish > potential of Colin > > Creevey! > > The Creevey - Pettigrew similarities are striking > aren't they > (setting aside the fact that Colin's a muggle)? > I disagree. > Colin, like Pettigrew, is a hanger-on rather than a > real member of > the group. No. He's a fanboy, but unlike Peter, you don't see him ever hanging out with Harry. > Colin, like Pettigrew, is treated > dismissively by his > Potter idol. Actually, Harry is pretty nice to him. He tries to get Colin to go away, but he's never mean. I mean, when he's on the ground with a broke arm he just says "I don't want a picture of this Colin." > Colin, like Pettigrew, seems wimpy and > ineffectual. I don't think so. I can't think of him as wimpy, despite his being small, as I've never seen him in any confrontational situation. > Colin, like Pettigrew, seems to bask in any > Potter-associated glory > he can get. Disagree again (big surprise,eh?). Colin doesn't bask in the glory of being associated with Harry; he isn't. He loves he fact that Harry exists. He worships the guy and would follow him into hell. But he never tries to claim a closer relationship with him than exists. He never claims to be Harry's friend. > Colin, like Pettigrew, seems to be > viewed by other > students as generally forgettable. Where do you get this from? We've never seen anyone point out Colin, admittidly. But we've never seen anyone not know who he is, either. > My counterintuitive conclusion: A Creevey gone bad > seems just too > Pettigrew. Well, I don't think either will go bad. Dying, on the other hand, may be something one has to look forward to. But I don't think he's reminiscent of Pettigrew. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 14:48:59 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 14:48:59 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <00b101c35df4$15587d30$a2c654c8@SAUL> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nintendo" wrote: > What makes you think Ginny was already Corner's girlfriend by then? As far > as we know, Ginny still fancied Harry in GoF, at least up to the Yule Ball. > I don't think she'd go into a date-fest immediately. It is much more > believable that they started dating after the beginning of their 4th year > (maybe they didn't even know each other before that). (snip) > Then again, Ginny probably wasn't dating anyone in GoF. Ginger, with book perched precariously against the keyboard, replies: OoP Ch.16, p. 348 (US): Hermione tells Ron and Harry re: Ginny and Michael, "They met at the Yule Ball and they got together at the end of last year." (Which would have been GoF) Just picking the nits, Ginger From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Aug 9 14:58:09 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 14:58:09 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76261 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > Has anyone else noticed the similarities between Peter Pettigrew and > Colin Creevey? > > Both are smallish, with mouse-coloured hair, and both of them seem to > be rather excitable. Neither appears to be terribly bright. And of > course they are both cringing syncophants. Coincidence?!! I think > not!!!! > > Admittedly, the dynamic between Pettigrew and the Marauders is very > different to Harry's realtionship with Creevey. Still, I wonder how > much longer Colin can sustain this unrequited boy-crush on Harry? How > long before he rushes into Voldemorts loving clutches? > > Just a thought. > > Allyson I partly agree with you. Already before I realised that Peter was evil, I was surprised that Harry imagined Peter to be like Neville, because the way Peter was described sounded IMO a lot like Colin (although since OOTP I am not sure anymore. I have a hard time imagine Colin cheering when somebody else is bullied). However, that doesn't have to mean that he also turns out evil. He could as well make another choice and turn out to be a real friend. On the other hand, I also think there will be a traitor and that is someone who already exists and is seemingly on Harry's side, or at least not against him currently. Colin would be an obvious choice (maybe to obvious) and I don't know who else could turn willingly. But I may be biased, because I also strongly dislike Colin (I like Dennis, on the other hand) and if someone turns out to be a traitor, I hope it is him, rather than a character, I actually like. I do think that something important will happen to/with Colin. Why else would JKR waste that much time for him. Penelope and Justin were also petrified, but it is Colin who appears again and again, without any purpose. But who knows. Maybe he will just die, and I am supposed to be sad about this. Hickengruendler From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Aug 9 15:03:43 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 15:03:43 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76262 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > > Has anyone else noticed the similarities between Peter Pettigrew > and > > Colin Creevey? > > > > >> > Just a thought. > > > > Allyson > >> because the way Peter was described sounded IMO a lot like Colin > (although since OOTP I am not sure anymore. I have a hard time > imagine Colin cheering when somebody else is bullied). However, that > doesn't have to mean that he also turns out evil. He could as well > make another choice and turn out to be a real friend. > > On the other hand, I also think there will be a traitor and that is > someone who already exists and is seemingly on Harry's side, or at > least not against him currently. Colin would be an obvious choice > > Hickengruendler The names have a kind of similarity: both first and second names are same first letter. Also Creevy sounds so like "Creepy". Sorry if this has been mentioned before. June From lziner at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 15:16:06 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 15:16:06 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: <20030809122313.68980.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > After reading the book, I thought he would share this > important piece of information with them, but now I'm > not so sure. There have been posts predicting Harry > becoming more reclusive in future books, and I think > I'll have to agree. Some private things he only shared > with Sirius (like Snape's memory of his parents). And > now that he's gone, I don't think anyone can ever fill > that void. I have a feeling that if anyone else finds > out (Ron, Hermione, members of the Order), it'll be by > accident. I don't think Harry will divulge this > information freely. > > ===== > Buttercup This brings up the question of who in the order knew about the prophecy? Everyone was guarding it but did DD tell them why? We never really find out. I don't think R & H will be find out until the very end of the series. However, I don't think Harry can defeat LV without his friends playing a role. (love, heart etc) Lziner > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Aug 9 15:22:04 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 15:22:04 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76264 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > > The names have a kind of similarity: both first and second names are > same first letter. But there are many other characters, too: Minerva cGonnagal, Severus Snape, Filius Flitwick, Dudley Dursley etc. > Also Creevy sounds so like "Creepy". Indeed. Although I am not sure if that isn't a bit overanalyzing. On the other hand, it is surely as reliable as to say, Snape sounds like Snake. Hickengruendler From ratalman at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 15:34:19 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 15:34:19 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: <3F348B51.7070106@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > greymalkin0602 wrote: > > > > Why wasn't the prophecy from Book 3 on the shelf in the Ministry next > > to the earlier one? > > T.M. Sommers wrote: >They are filed chronologically. Or the earlier one was filed > under 'V' for 'Voldemort'. Or there's a huge backlog and it > hasn't been filed at all yet. I think that the prophecies may be filed according to the year in which they will come to pass. I don't think it is a coincidence that Trelawney's second prophecy is stored in row 97, i.e., pertaining to the year 1997, Harry's 17th year, and his seventh year at Hogwarts. While winding their way through the rows of shelves, the DA notice that some of the glass orbs are glowing and some are not: "Some of them had a weird, liquid glow; others were as dull and dark within as blown lightbulbs." (p. 778, US edition) I take this to mean that the prophecies that have not yet come to pass are still aglow; while those that have already happened, or maybe have been proved to be false, are dark . Robyn From ratalman at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 15:49:52 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 15:49:52 -0000 Subject: Nasty thought - Harry's destiny PoA In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76266 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karina Aleksandrova" wrote: > Now me: > Harry and Hermione hadn't altered the past. They were meant > to save Sirus and Buckbeak, and Dumbledore knew that (I do > not know how) and that's why he sent them into the past - not > to change it, but to bring it about. At the time in the hospital > wing, when Dumbledore had told them what they had to do, all > of it had already happened. And I don't think he would have > sent them if it was against the laws about altering time. > As for going back in time part, from what we know so far, the > past cannot be changed. When Harry and Hermione went back > in time in PoA they haven't changed the past. > > ~Carina Yes, it seems to me that in the potterverse, one cannot alter what is destined. Attempts to do so, such as LV trying to kill the person he thinks will someday do him in, fail. Robyn From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sat Aug 9 11:46:01 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:46:01 -0000 Subject: Clothes under robes, kilts (was Re: Snape's nationality and worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "president0084" wrote: > Frankie wrote: > > in order for him to be flipped > upside down and wind up with his pants on display, I submit that > Snape is the offspring of an obscure Scottish clan > > Wearing clothes under the robes seems to come about from the film, not > the book. If they wear normal clothes under the robes, why bother at > all with the robes? Secondly on the train, why would Hermione leave > when the boys change into their robes if they are only putting them on > over their normal clothes? > > "president0084" I don't get why so many of you find it weird that Snape doesn't wear trousers under his robes, when nobody in the book seems to find it weird. I mean, it's warm outside - the girls are even taking their shoes and socks off. I certainly don't wear long underwear under a dress in summertime, and I can assure you that I don't go around worrying about the possibility of anyone lifting me upside down to expose my (not greyening) underwear :-) Marika From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 16:18:02 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 16:18:02 -0000 Subject: That's Not News to Luna (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76268 Luna Lovegood, in her first HP4GU solo..... That's Not News to Luna To the tune of When You're Good to Mama, from Chicago No MIDI or RealAudio, but surely you've seen the movie by now? Dedicated to Phyllis THE SCENE: Ravenclaw Common Room. LUNA LOVEGOOD sings the praises of her father's periodical. LUNA: Ask any of the readers of Dad's gazette They'll tell ya how they cherish each vignette I love my Dad and all he writes, you see Because The Quibbler has A vast array of curiosities..... Fudge is killin' Goblins Bakin' them in pies That's not news to Luna She sees through his guise When you see Tornados Cheat to win the League Whirl that wind to Luna She loves that intrigue It says that runes read upside-down Will tell you what is what So, read these runes with Luna and Turn ears into kumquats Don't you know how Boardman Really loves to croon? Sing a song for Luna She'll sing Luna tunes If you spy a Crumple On a Horned Snorkack Dump it all on Luna She'll be on its track When the old Slashkilter Gets Umgubular Just slash one with Luna She'll slash one of yours! Those folks who mock at Potter Do not know our strategies Our interview with Potter makes Umbridge write more decrees If you have a story For which there's no proof Tell it all to Luna She won't be aloof So let's avoid confusion And adopt this simple rule: Subscribe to The Quibbler Keep Luna in school! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 16:23:16 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:23:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809162316.24090.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76269 Perhaps this has been asked and answered before. If so, I missed it. During the first Occlumency lesson, why would Snape ask Harry "To whom did the dog belong?" Why would he care? It wasn't anything important that I can see. He asks about a dog, yet he doesn't ask the more interesting question about the sorting hat telling Harry he would do well in Slytherin. You'd think that would interest him more. Who cares about his Aunt Marge's dog? I don't get it. Could this have been another clue? ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 16:24:04 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 16:24:04 -0000 Subject: Something I would like to see...... In-Reply-To: <20030809120238.71831.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76270 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > --- Steve wrote: > > > > I would like to find out that Fred and George have > > > made Harry a secret partner in their Magic Joke Shoppe. > > > Buttercup: > > ... I wished Harry had done was give part of his Tri-Wizard winnings > to Lupin. Lupin was very nice to him, teaching him the > Patronus spell and just being supportive and caring in > POA. ...edited... > > ===== > Buttercup bboy_mn: That's OK, Harry will make sure Lupin gets part of the money for the capture of the escaped DE's. I think they should get a reward for all the DE's captured not just the escaped ones. Depending on the split, I estimate $5,000 to $10,000 each. (G1,000/DE = about$7,500/DE) Just a thought. bboy_mn From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Aug 9 16:30:08 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 17:30:08 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Something I would like to see...... References: Message-ID: <3F352190.000001.74261@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 76271 > Buttercup: > > ... I wished Harry had done was give part of his Tri-Wizard winnings > to Lupin. Lupin was very nice to him, teaching him the > Patronus spell and just being supportive and caring in > POA. ...edited... > bboy_mn: That's OK, Harry will make sure Lupin gets part of the money for the capture of the escaped DE's. I think they should get a reward for all the DE's captured not just the escaped ones. Me - I hope that they do all get the reward - I couldn't have seen Lupin taking the Tri-Wizard money anyway. I see Remus as being too proud to take somethig e would see as charity, whereas at least he 'earned' the reward - although whether he'll want it I don't know. After all Harry didn't want the Tri Wizard winnings because they reminded him of Cedric's death, Remus may well feel similarly about the reward since his oldest friend just died (or vanished or whatever) K From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 16:32:10 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809163210.64244.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76272 Buttercup wrote: > > > > After reading the book, I thought he would share > this > > important piece of information with them, but now > I'm > > not so sure. There have been posts predicting > Harry > > becoming more reclusive in future books, and I > think > > I'll have to agree. Some private things he only > shared > > with Sirius (like Snape's memory of his parents). > And > > now that he's gone, I don't think anyone can ever > fill > > that void. I have a feeling that if anyone else > finds > > out (Ron, Hermione, members of the Order), it'll > be by > > accident. I don't think Harry will divulge this > > information freely. Lziner wrote: > This brings up the question of who in the order knew > about the > prophecy? Everyone was guarding it but did DD tell > them why? We > never really find out. I don't think R & H will be > find out until > the very end of the series. However, I don't think > Harry can defeat > LV without his friends playing a role. (love, heart > etc) > Buttercup: I wondered who in the Order knew about the prophecy, too. I thought maybe Sirius. But now I don't think anyone knew except Dumbledore and the eavesdropper in the Hog's Head and the Dark Lord. Although the latter two only knew part of it. Dumbledore didn't want this piece of information out, so the less people who knew the better chance of keeping it a secret from the Dark Lord. I believe that just Harry and Dumbledore know the whole prophecy. I guess Trewlawney was out of it, so she wouldn't remember. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 16:55:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 16:55:35 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: <20030809122313.68980.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > ... I thought he would share this important piece of information with > them, but now I'm not so sure. ... I don't think Harry will divulge > this information freely. > > ===== > Buttercup bboy_mn: Your point is well made, but I'm not sure if you asked the right question. I think the real question is, how much will he tell them? I think he may make a general mention that he heard the prophecy, and of course, they will ask him what it said, but I think his first response will be vague and general. Something along the line of, I'm the one who has to face Voldemort. But I think that's what everyone pretty much assumed. It will be a long while before he actually quote the prophecy to them. Which I think is a bad move, because there might be some real value in getting Hermione's brain working on it. I think this is just the kind of thing she would be good at. So, really, in a way, I'm agreeing with you. Harry sense of isolation is not going to encourage him to be very forthcoming; a 'leave me alone, it's my problem and there's nothing you can do about it' attitude. But as usual he will eventually come around; I'm just not sure how long that will be. Sorry, guess I didn't add much. bboy_mn From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 17:02:40 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:02:40 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Expelling Draco? References: <168DDE9C-B5DE-11D7-8B37-0003939A0BA2@rcbooks.org> Message-ID: <3F352930.2020107@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76274 Random wrote: > On Sunday, Jul 13, 2003, at 19:57 America/Indianapolis, T.M. Sommers > wrote: > >>P. 194 of the US edition: the snake "raised itself, fangs >>exposed, poised to strike." Non-poisonous snakes don't have fangs. > > A fang is just a tooth... we're not told if these particular fangs are > hollow for delivering poison. In snakes, a fang is a specialized tooth for delivering poison. At least that is the common usage. > As far as I know, most or all snakes have > fangs, though i could be wrong. Non-poisonous snakes don't have fangs. > It's also possible that it's venomous > but not poisonous (to humans); are there even any snakes like this? None that I know of. > Or, > another possibility - it is venomous, but for it to actually have any > effect the wizard conjuring it has to be at a certain power level. > Remember, it's not a "real" snake. Or, the most likely possibility, it is a poisonous snake, in the usual meaning of that phrase. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 17:07:58 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 17:07:58 -0000 Subject: Something I would like to see...... In-Reply-To: <3F352190.000001.74261@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > > Buttercup: > > > > ... I wished Harry had done was give part of his Tri-Wizard > > winnings to Lupin. ...edited... > > > > bboy_mn: > > That's OK, Harry will make sure Lupin gets part of the money for the > capture of the escaped DE's. ... > > Me - > > ... I see Remus ... at least he 'earned' the reward - although > whether he'll want it I don't know. After all Harry didn't want the > Tri Wizard winnings because they reminded him of Cedric's death, > Remus may well feel similarly about the reward since his oldest > friend just died (or vanished or whatever) > > K bboy_mn: Keep in mind that there is a separate G10,000 ($75,000) reward for Sirius. Now that is a gruesome reward. Because of the need to keep Sirius's death a secret for the security of the headquarters of the Order, and to stave off any claim to the estate, I don't see thie reward coming into the picture for a long time. But still, at some point they are going to have to officially deal with Sirius's death. As much as I am aware that the reward exists, I sort of hope they will just forget about it. One valid question is, who would the give the reward to? ...Bellatrix? Just a thought. bboy_mn From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 9 17:10:12 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:10:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and purity of blood References: Message-ID: <3F352AF4.6010207@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76276 oh have faith wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" > wrote: > >>We don't have much evidence about Snape's beliefs, but what we do >>have is entirely consistent with him holding the typical >>Slytherinish anti-Muggle beliefs, at least when he joined the >>Death Eaters. > > But doesn't the fact that he apparantly renounced these beliefs > after a short time in the DEs indicate that he didn't hold them very > strongly in the first place? No. For one thing, we don't know that he renounced the beliefs; all we know is that he betrayed the DEs. We don't yet know why he betrayed them. Also, we don't know how long he was a DE before he betrayed them. > It seems they didn't stand up to > scrutiny. I can imagine someone who has sympathy for the DE's cause > but not their methods, for example, not wanting to be a part of > them, but Snape is working so hard to undermine their entire cause > and destroy their organisation. I can't see someone doing this > voluntarily if he does still have any sympathies for what they stand > for. He could have defected for personal, not ideological, reasons. Voldemort called him "Snivellus" one too many times, perhaps. Do you think that everyone who defected during the Cold War did so for ideological reasons? > Besides, apart from one "mudblood" shouted in rage when he was a > defensive, embarassed fifteen year old, there's no evidence in the > books that Snape dislikes the muggle-born any more than he dislikes > absolutely everybody else. The only evidence we have about his > current beliefs is that he works for the Order - and that suggests > the contrary. He's an equal opportunities hater! In the real world, anyone using such an epithet would be instantly and permanently branded a racist. I see no reason to make a special case of Snape. From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Sat Aug 9 17:15:49 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 18:15:49 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Something I would like to see...... References: Message-ID: <3F352C45.000001.65385@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 76277 > Me (K)- > > ... I see Remus ... at least he 'earned' the reward - although > whether he'll want it I don't know. After all Harry didn't want the > Tri Wizard winnings because they reminded him of Cedric's death, > Remus may well feel similarly about the reward since his oldest > friend just died (or vanished or whatever) > > K bboy_mn: Keep in mind that there is a separate G10,000 ($75,000) reward for Sirius. Now that is a gruesome reward. Because of the need to keep Sirius's death a secret for the security of the headquarters of the Order, and to stave off any claim to the estate, I don't see thie reward coming into the picture for a long time. Me - I'd totally forgotten that there even *was* a reward out for Sirius. I just meant that Remus might associate any reward money due from the excursion to the Ministry with Sirius' death since he died while they were capturing those DEs. I can't really see Harry wanting any of that reward either for that matter. As for the reward on Sirius ... I can't see the Ministry handing that out to anyone without a body. They might be convinced that he was there and was innocent and got killed if Dumbledore chooses to try and convince them of that but I can't see any bureaucratic institution handing out a large chunk of gold as a reward without getting the 'criminal' in question in return (dead or alive). If the Ministry is anything like most muggle governmental institutions then getting money out of it is probably like getting blood out of a stone under the best of circumstances. K From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 9 17:23:50 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:23:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76278 In a message dated 8/7/2003 8:32:52 PM Pacific Daylight Time, meltowne at yahoo.com writes: > I can't find the reference, but I think I recall Ron mentioning that > Ginny has wanted to attend Hogwarts since Charlie got his letter. > That would imply that Charlie is less than 10 years older than Ginny - > but at least 7 years older than Ron , meaning he was born between > 1971 and 1973. If someone else finds that reference, let me know. > There's also a reference in GoF from either Charlie or Bill stating > when they had last been at Hogwarts - don't know if that was as a > student, or to visit a younger sibling. > I believe it was since BILL got his letter. It's also stated in PS/SS that Gryffindor hasn't won the Cup since Charlie left - & that Slytherin has had it for 7 years running (different places - unfortunately, I don't have my books with me). Therefore, Charlie left at least 7 years before Ron got there - so Charlie is at least 24 in PS/SS. That's a nine-year gap between Charlie & Percy... Bill did state in GoF that (IIRC) it's been about five years since he'd visited Hogwarts - but, as he's older than Charlie, my guess would be that he'd been there to consult with Dumbledore and/or Flitwick regarding some particularly nasty charms he'd found... That's my story, & I'm stickin' to it! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 9 17:33:40 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:33:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? Message-ID: <1c0.d88810b.2c668a74@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76279 In a message dated 8/7/2003 11:52:25 PM Pacific Daylight Time, esaulgd at cantv.net writes: > I don't think it's a secret. Even ministry examinators that had never been > to Hogwarts knew about it I think they knew about it because it was discussed at the hearing. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 17:42:10 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:42:10 -0700 Subject: Who Will Betray the Order? (Part 2) Message-ID: <410-2200386917421033@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76280 Hello, Everyone, I've been thinking rather a lot lately about who the "betrayer" of the order will be (following the recent thread on this subject). I do think that someone we trust (and someone Harry trusts) will prove to be Ever So Evil by the end of Book 7. We've discussed just about every character in the books in terms of their potential for becoming evil (or proving to have been evil all along), and in thinking about this, a questions occurred to me: is it more likely that the person who betrays Harry will be one of his peers, or one of the adults that he trusts? I've generally thought that it would be one of the adults. This may just be due to the fact that as an adult myself, I enjoy the adult characters more than I do the kids, and I spend rather more time thinking about them. I also tend to be able to "relate" better to their experiences and such better than I can with the teenagers. (Yes, I was teenager once, but it's been almost 20 years, and mostly an experience I've tried to block from my memory ). The adults all have more backstory than the children (just by virtue of having lived longer), so an adult would have more potential reasons to switch sides at some point. It also seems to me that one of the adults is far more likely to have been evil all along - can you really imagine Hermione, for example, coming to Hogwarts already having evil intentions of joining Voldemort? So I think I've been mostly operating under the assumption that one of the adults in Harry's life will betray him, and have considered McGonagall and Lupin, and most recently Molly, as being the most likely candidates. But in reading the Colin Creevey thread, I realised that I personally haven't given much thought to to possibility that the "betrayer" really could be one of Harry's friends or peers. When we consider the apparent timing of events in the first Voldemort War, it seems as though some of the Death Eaters may have been recruited while still students at Hogwarts. My reasoning for this is that a) based on the Lexicon timeline, Snape - and all the others in his year - was only 21 at the time of Voldemort's "fall," which means he must have become a Death Eater not long after leaving Hogwarts - or recruited while still a student; and b) we learn from Sirius that Snape's "gang" at Hogwarts consisted of others who all became Death Eaters. This comment leads me to suspect that they may have been recruited at Hogwarts. So, if we assume that Voldemort approached Hogwarts' students in the past, he might do it again now. It does appear that most of the Death Eaters came from Slytherin House, and I think it's very likely that Draco and his lot may join Voldemort before the series is through. One of them could hardly be the "betrayer," though. However, depending on when we think Peter switched sides, it's possible that he was approached originally at Hogwarts as well. (I'm obviously working under the assumption that MMWP were all Gryffindors). In any case, the stakes are a bit different now. In the past, Voldemort was just looking for others to join his crusade (as far as we know, anyway), but now he has a target who is a student at Hogwarts. When I think about it this way, it seems very likely that someone close to Harry will be approached, and might decide to betray Harry for one reason or another. I suppose it's possible that one of Harry's peers could go to Voldemort on his/her own, but this seems much less likely. So, I'd like to hear what others have to say about this. Do you think that it's more likely one of the adults will be the one to betray Harry (assuming that someone does), or will it be one of his friends/classmates? Oh - and one more quick comment. In one of the posts on the first thread of this title, someone "accused" us of using the accusation of Ever So Evil as an excuse to bash the characters we don't like. (Not exact words, but that's what I took the comment to mean). I completely disagree with this - on the contrary, I think that the strongest ESE argument is for Remus Lupin, and I LOVE Lupin, I love his character, I love everything about him except the fact that I fear he may be evil. So I'm not trying to bash a hated character at all. That would actually be contrary to the whole discussion of this subject. The point isn't to see which characters are awful enough in canon to betray Harry, but to try and determine (by guessing which are JKR's real clues) which character that we *trust* will turn out to be evil. If I thought it would be someone I dislike, then Mad-eye Moody would be the betrayer. But that's no fun, as I already dislike him and would only feel vindicated in my dislike if he turned out to be the one. So I don't think this is about slamming the characters we don't like. Exactly the opposite, in fact. Looking forward to your comments on this, Wendy Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From bibphile at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 18:04:38 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:04:38 -0000 Subject: Charlie's age (was: Re: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > I believe it was since BILL got his letter. It's also stated in PS/SS that > Gryffindor hasn't won the Cup since Charlie left - & that Slytherin has had it > for 7 years running (different places - unfortunately, I don't have my books > with me). Therefore, Charlie left at least 7 years before Ron got there - so > Charlie is at least 24 in PS/SS. That's a nine-year gap between Charlie & > Percy... No. I'm pretty sure they said how it had been since they won the House Cup (not the Quidditch Cup) in PS. McGonagall said they had lost the Quidditch cup 7 years in a row in PoA (chapter 12). If it was Chalie's final year when they last won it, then Charlie would be 8 years older than Percy. bibphile From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sat Aug 9 18:12:19 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 11:12:19 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and purity of blood Message-ID: <410-22003869181219916@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76282 oh have faith wrote: > Besides, apart from one "mudblood" shouted in rage when he was a > defensive, embarassed fifteen year old, there's no evidence in the > books that Snape dislikes the muggle-born any more than he dislikes > absolutely everybody else. The only evidence we have about his > current beliefs is that he works for the Order - and that suggests > the contrary. He's an equal opportunities hater! To which T.M. Sommers replied: "In the real world, anyone using such an epithet would be instantly and permanently branded a racist. I see no reason to make a special case of Snape." Now me (Wendy): I *strongly* disagree with this statement. I personally have a hard time branding anyone "instantly and permanently" as anything. Do you not allow that people can change their beliefs about things? Especially when we consider that Snape was only 15. Now, 15 is a sticky age. Nowadays, there are lots of 15 year olds who are out there pretending to be adults in the real world. But I know that when I was 15, I was nowhere near mature in my outlook, and I certainly had beliefs about things (or rather, vacuums in my knowledge) that changed as I matured. I tend to think that JKR is writing her characters with a bit more "innocence" age-wise than we now perceive kids in the real world, so I think we should cut the 15-year-olds a bit of slack and allow that they still have growing-up to do. I know that I went through a period when I said horrible things, not really understanding their meanings. Does this mean you'll assume instantly and pernamently that I'm a horrible person for the rest of my life? Well, you're certainly entiled to do so, but then you'll also have to believe that James really did force Lily to marry him using some date-rape potion or such. In that same scene, we saw that James was an insufferably arrogant bully, and that Lily wanted nothing to do with him. So, do you also believe we should brand James "insantly and permanently" as being irredeemably bad? I don't think we should. I assume that James came to his senses at some point, and changed his beliefs and behaviour. So why is it impossible that Snape could have done the same? I'm not saying I know he did. I just think it is rather unreasonable to assume that he couldn't have. Cheers, Wendy From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 9 18:16:28 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:16:28 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: RE: Who did Bertha see kissing Message-ID: <16e.225d8f23.2c66947c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76283 In a message dated 8/8/2003 3:54:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, kozmoz4 at yahoo.com writes: > We know that Lucius is 41 now, making him 26 when > Harry and Draco was born; 9 years after Hogwarts > graduation. Assuming Harry was born right after his > parents' marrige, the Potters should be 18 when Harry > was born. So, assuming Snape was 13 when Bertha was > sixteen, that would make the Marauders also 13 and > Lucius 21, and not a student in Hogwarts. So it cannot > be Lucius Bertha saw. Of course, we don't know Harry > was born right after marriage, and we don't know Snape > was 13 when BErtha was 16, so we can only make wild > guesses about the identity of the Mystery Man. > Lucius is 41 in OotP (late 1995) - Sev (& by extension, the Marauders) is, per JKR's statement, 36 or 37 at that point, some 5-6 years younger. 41 in 1995 would have made him Hogwarts Class of 1972. Sev & the Marauders would have been '77 or '78. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 18:40:33 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:40:33 +0000 Subject: (FILK) The Awkward Situation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76284 The Awkward Situation (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _The Dangling Conversation_ by Simon and Garfunkel) Midi is here (under the album "Parsley Sage Rosemary and Thyme"...I like the first Midi better): http://sglyrics.myrmid.com/contents.html A Windows snippet is here: http://www.buy.com/retail/music/product.asp?sku=60561628 Dedicated to Melody...c'mon, I know you know this song! Harry (borrowing Sirius' acoustic guitar): Was a soggy Hogsmeade visit In a tea house down the lane Decorated for Valentine's Day Where raindrops washed the pane And the cold dregs of my coffee Matched my feelings perfectly I felt so out of place As the tears streaked down your face Was an awkward situation Everything had gone awry As I watched you as you cried We chatted about Quidditch games As to Hogsmeade we strolled when The remarks of Parkinson checked us Our moment was stolen There were golden cherubs hov'ring O'er couples that were kissing Were setting a standard That I found so very hard It was an awkward situation And the both of us could tell As between us silence fell Hermione I mentioned Asked if you wanted to come There's confetti in my coffee cup Was feeling rather numb You spoke of the death of Cedric Then you became so frantic I do not understand It's an enigma unto me A more awkward situation I don't think I'll ever find I could not read the signs -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sat Aug 9 19:02:05 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:02:05 -0000 Subject: The Traitor (was: Colin Creevey...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: (snipped) > On the other hand, I also think there will be a traitor and that is > someone who already exists and is seemingly on Harry's side, or at > least not against him currently. Colin would be an obvious choice > (maybe to obvious) and I don't know who else could turn willingly. > > Hickengruendler A while ago I posted that prof. Trelawney refers to Voldemort as "the Dark Lord", like Harry tells Snape he (Harry) has only heard Death Eaters call LV. In reply to this, Ximena (post #74179) listed everyone (I think :)) who uses that term, and the most surprising name on the list was Ernie Macmillan. I haven't been watching him all that closely, and the Dark Lord theory may not be completely fool-proof... but it's interesting nevertheless. :) evangelina (who never really thanked Ximena properly and blows a kiss in her direction!) From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 9 19:14:09 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 15:14:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? Message-ID: <17f.1f0c3eb8.2c66a201@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76286 In a message dated 8/8/2003 1:11:50 PM Pacific Daylight Time, newyorkcutie200 at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 8/8/2003 12:14:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > stbinch at actionsd.com writes: > > >I do have one problem with her though. She switches > >>boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > >>fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then > >>Dean Thomas (Cho seems to do the same, floating from > >>boy to boy). By the time Harry and she get together, > >>she'll have dated every available boy at Hogwarts. > >>They're too young for this. > > > My relpy: > I have to disagree completly. Teens can change boyfriends very very fast. I > think JKR was very well at portraying teen romances. LOL - I have a 14-year-old (well, just turned 15) who has at LEAST two boyfriends at a time! Every time I ask "How's Keith?", I'll get, "Oh, it's Tommy now" - or Joe, or Jeff, or _______. I gave up counting at least a year ago. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Aug 9 19:17:06 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:17:06 -0000 Subject: Who Will Betray the Order? (Part 2) In-Reply-To: <410-2200386917421033@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76287 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" wrote: > > So, I'd like to hear what others have to say about this. Do you think that > it's more likely one of the adults will be the one to betray Harry > (assuming that someone does), or will it be one of his friends/classmates? I personally think it's likely that one from Harry's generaion (and with that I mean everybody from Percy to Dennis Creevey) will turn out evil. I can't explain why, it's just a feeling I have. However, there are a few I have ruled out for myself, and these are: 1. Neville: Because the Pettigrew/ Neville comparison is to obvious IMO. I personally always thought Neville and Peter have close to nothing in common, but still Harry imagined Peter like Neville, so this is the comparison that was made in the books. But if Neville turned out Peter 2, it would be the most boring and stupid plot devide I could imagine, because it would have been a repeat of what already happened. And I don't think JKR would do that, especially, because it contradicts the theme of choices. 2. Dennis: I really think he is to young. He would be fourteen in the last book, and I can't imagine someone that young joining the Death Eaters. Especially not a muggle born. Well, maybe if something dreadful happens to Colin, and Harry is somehow responsible, but I still doubt it. 3. Hermione: No way. To be honest, if you ask me for this and this person, I would always say: "No, I can't imagine it would be them." I don't even really think that Colin is the one, who turns. But I do think, he is the least unlikely. Hickengruendler From yellows at aol.com Sat Aug 9 19:30:02 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 15:30:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry in Snape's DADA? Message-ID: <0976DE87.77C57365.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76288 In a message dated 8/9/2003 1:09:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Steven writes: > I see no fairness in Snape. To me, he is a small pathetic man, who has one redeeming quality...loyalty to Dumbledore I just don't see him that way. My image of Snape is of a reformed man who is working hard to correct the wrongs of his youth. More over, I believe that he cares very much for Harry Potter and is having to hide his affection in order to fool the Death Eaters. Snape has been there for Harry -- even saved Harry's life -- when it seemed most out of character. I think the truth is that Snape is always acting out of character, putting on a show for the children of Death Eaters who will report back to their mothers and fathers that Snape is definitely still on the right side because he clearly hates the Boy Who Lived. Brief Chronicles From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 19:31:31 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:31:31 -0000 Subject: Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: <80C4D5C7-C771-11D7-83F9-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Lots of speculation about Grimmauld Place and will Harry iinherit. > > But everyone seems to have forgotten about Godrics Hollow. Doesn't that > belong to Harry now? > It may be a wreck, but land prices in the southern half of England > means that he's rich! > > As he's under age he will have to have a guardian to deal with the > legal bits and pieces. > > Who is the guardian? By law it will be Petunia if no other arrangements > (legal, not casual), have been made. Even if it was Sirius that now > becomes null and void on his death and his heirs cannot inherit a > guardianship for a non-family member. > > So just what did happen to it? > > Kneasy >From CW: There has been some debate as to whether Godric's Hollow refers to a house or a village in response Kneasy's email. I was re- reading 'Quidditch through the ages' this afternoon (as you do), and found I think, a definitive answer to this question. On p.14, it says 'The invention of the Golden Snitch is credited to the wizard Bowman Wright of Godric's Hollow.' It goes on to describe him as a skilled metal charmer etc etc. The way this story is presented appears to me to indicate that Godric's Hollow is a village, and it seems, a very appropriate one for James & Lily to have lived at, as it has important historic connotations for the game of Quidditch. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 19:36:12 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:36:12 -0000 Subject: Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency In-Reply-To: <20030809162316.24090.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > Perhaps this has been asked and answered before. If > so, I missed it. During the first Occlumency lesson, > why would Snape ask Harry "To whom did the dog > belong?" Why would he care? It wasn't anything > important that I can see. He asks about a dog, yet he > doesn't ask the more interesting question about the > sorting hat telling Harry he would do well in > Slytherin. You'd think that would interest him more. > Who cares about his Aunt Marge's dog? I don't get it. > Could this have been another clue? It happened during the first lesson, the first time Snape penetrates Harry's mind. Snape has always been so accustomed to assume that Harry is a carbon copy of James - "he's so arrogrant, criticism just bounces off him" - that he might have been taken aback to catch these glimpses of just how much Harry was abused and humiliated in his childhood (we don't know how much Snape knows of Privet Drive). Perhaps this points - if not to a full reconciliation - to at least a lessening of hostility between the two in the future. - CMC From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 19:48:25 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:48:25 -0000 Subject: Uncle Alphard Snape??/What about Sirius's own house ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > Okay, I'm sure I'm way off base, but, what the hell... > > Sirius tells us that his Uncle Alphard left him a "good bit of gold," > which enabled him to get his own place once he was seventeen. > > (snip) Marianne CW writes: I've always wondered what happened to the place that Sirius bought when he was 17. Its the place Harry immediately imagines staying at when he leaves the Shrieking Shack with Sirius. Was it confiscated by the Ministry after he was sent to Azkaban ? Have his friends (?Lupin? Dumbledore) been looking after it/living in it ? If it still it exists, it would surely have been mentioned as one of the key places to watch after Sirius escaped. We do seem to have a lot of buildings that have mysteriously disappeared - Sirius's house, James & Lily's house, James' parents house...hmmmmmm From dumblewho at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 12:31:30 2003 From: dumblewho at yahoo.com (Duncan Cameron) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 05:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Animagus Harry / Patronus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809123130.13947.qmail@web13309.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76292 --- S Handel wrote: > > I dont think there can really be any cite for this > as I think there > are only about 31 registered animagi in the > wizarding world. (plus > the 5 unregistered). I doubt that with such a low > number of animagi > out there that a true pattern can be found. But again we only KNOW of 5 unregistered animagi in the Wizarding World.. in the UK. That doesnt mean that there arent unregistered animagi in the rest of the World. Duncan > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From fc26det at aol.com Sat Aug 9 13:04:29 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:04:29 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76293 > > greymalkin0602 wrote: > > > > > > Why wasn't the prophecy from Book 3 on the shelf in the > > > Ministry nextto the earlier one? > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" > wrote: > > They are filed chronologically. Or the earlier one was filed > > under 'V' for 'Voldemort'. Or there's a huge backlog and it > > hasn't been filed at all yet. > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" Are you referring to the prophecy Trelawney made in Harry's > hearing? > > If so, surely it would depend on whether Dumbledore reported it > (Harry wouldn't know about the prophecy "Library"). Hi, Could it be that once a prophecy is fulfilled that it disappears? The one that Trelawney told Harry was fulfilled completely. Susan From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sat Aug 9 18:55:48 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 18:55:48 -0000 Subject: Snape and purity of blood In-Reply-To: <410-22003869181219916@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" wrote: > T.M. Sommers wrote: > > "In the real world, anyone using such an epithet would be > instantly and permanently branded a racist. I see no reason to > make a special case of Snape." > > Wendy's reply: > > I *strongly* disagree with this statement. I personally have a hard time > branding anyone "instantly and permanently" as anything. Do you not allow > that people can change their beliefs about things? Especially when we > consider that Snape was only 15. Me: I totally agree with you Wendy. We don't know if Snape really meant what he said or not. Like so many on this list have said before, the guy was humiliated, and then it's easy to say things you normally wouldn't say. It's equally likely he meant it at the time, but not anymore. I can also see that he just grabbed the first insult he could think of without even thinking about what it really meant or weather he agreed to the meaning of it or not. When I was about eight years old, it was very common that the boys in my class used the word "gay" to insult somebody. I bet half of them didn't know what it meant, and that the other half really didn't dislike homosexuals - at least not at the time. Some of them probably grew up being homofobic while others grew up being homosexual themselves. Marika From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 19:13:43 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:13:43 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] That 'Philological' Stone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030809111101.00a663d8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 76295 At 03:59 AM 8/9/2003 +0000, Me1is wrote: >(OOP pg 305, UK): >"'And in our first year,' said Neville to the group at large, 'he >saved that Philological Stone - ' >'Philosopher's,' Hissed Hermione. >'Yes, that - from You-Know-Who,' finished Neville" (OoP pg 342, US): "And in our first year," said Neville to the group at large, "he saved that Sorcerous Stone--" "Sorcerer's," ,' Hissed Hermione. 'Yes, that - from You-Know-Who,' finished Neville" From cherlouize at aol.com Sat Aug 9 19:21:47 2003 From: cherlouize at aol.com (Kim) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 19:21:47 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76296 Hello, This is an insignificant point, but one that has been nibbling away in my mind since my first reading of the first book. I wonder about how wizards procure their food. Do they have grocery stores or markets? We don't hear about any markets in Diagon Alley (that I can remember), just the ice cream parlor. We know that there are pubs and sweet shops and the like, both in Diagon Alley & in Hogsmeade. But where does a wizard or witch go when they need a can of tuna or some peanut butter? Surely they don't go to the Muggle market. Do they just summon their groceries? Do they have a running tab at a wizard market somewhere (I can just picture tins and boxes zooming off the shelves as they are summoned)? Another point along the same lines - I know finances are extremely tight for the Weasleys. But they always seem to have plenty to eat for all those growing kids. One teenaged boy can eat a family out of house and home, let alone having 5 teens or near-teens at home. And Molly seems to pride herself on filling Harry up when he arrives, half-starved, from the Dursley's. In fact, they seem to take guests in their stride - I don't get the sense that Molly is fretting about adding another potato to the soup. I don't remember there being any livestock at the Burrow, from the canon descriptions. How do they put such copious amounts of food on the table? Perhaps I've overlooked something, but this detail has been bugging me for long enough! Help, anyone? Thanks. pax Kim From meboriqua at aol.com Sat Aug 9 20:02:17 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:02:17 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: <20030809122313.68980.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > After reading the book, I thought he would share this > important piece of information with them, but now I'm > not so sure. There have been posts predicting Harry > becoming more reclusive in future books, and I think > I'll have to agree. Some private things he only shared > with Sirius (like Snape's memory of his parents). And > now that he's gone, I don't think anyone can ever fill > that void. I have a feeling that if anyone else finds > out (Ron, Hermione, members of the Order), it'll be by > accident. I don't think Harry will divulge this > information freely.> I tend to agree with you here. Harry will be reluctant to share this with his friends, especially considering the meaning behind the prophecy (or the meaning so far). What I'd like to ask as well is if Harry should tell Neville about the prophecy. If Neville's name is in any way connected to Voldemort, does he have a right to know that, or would it better to leave him out of it? The fact that Neville was the only other person left standing with Harry at the MoM leads me to think Harry could share some of his burden with Neville - not the actual respsonsibility, mind you, but he and Neville have more in common than Harry does with either Hermione or Ron. Or maybe it's just that now I like Neville so much, I want him to be a part of everything from now on. :-) --jenny from ravenclaw *********************************** From acoteucla at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 20:20:43 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:20:43 -0000 Subject: Who Will Betray the Order? (Part 2) In-Reply-To: <410-2200386917421033@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76298 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" wrote: > So, I'd like to hear what others have to say about this. Do you think that > it's more likely one of the adults will be the one to betray Harry > (assuming that someone does), or will it be one of his friends/classmates? Why not both? I think spies & betrayals might become commonplace in the last two books. We'll see. I think this is an interesting direction to take the betrayal discussion. I think there is a good chance that one of Harry's fellow students will be recruited by Voldemort (someone whom we didn't already know was a bad egg - not Draco, in other words). I think that the five students who accompanied Harry to the Ministry are the "untouchables". They have shown true loyalty to Harry, and LOTS of courage in standing up to the death-eaters. They would neither crack under pressure (like Peter), nor join them willingly. If I'm correct here, that means that Ron, Hermione, Neville, Luna, and Ginny can all be cleared of suspicion. Who does that leave? Dean & Seamus - we don't know enough about these two to vouch for them one way or the either. Seamus has shown a willingness to turn on Harry. Dean seems more level-headed. The Creevey brothers - With people on this board comparing Peter Pettigrew to both Ron & Neville, let's not forget that Harry himself compared Peter to Colin Creevey! Foreshadowing? Those two are muggle-born though, aren't they? That would make a tough recruit for Voldemort. Cho Chang - I don't know why, but I would love it if she turned out to be a Voldemort supporter. Maybe it's cuz I don't like her very much. Honestly, I don't see this as a very likely scenario. We don't really know too many other students that well (other than the slimy Slytherins). There's Ernie Macmillan, those two guys who played beaters for Gryffindor to replace Gred & Forge, Cho's friend (Edgecomb, was it?), Roger Davies (has he graduated yet?)... anyone else? From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 13:07:36 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:07:36 -0000 Subject: Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tesseract197" wrote: > Tess (me): > What I find most interesting about the room is that Pansy was able > to enter it to get the D.A.'s membership list after the raid: > > When she entered, after all of the D.A. members had gone, was it > still 'open' and set up for the meeting, with cushions on the floor, > etc.? I can't imagine that it would be, because we're told that it > can only be accessed by someone who desperately needs it for a > specific purpose, and often even people who've found it once can > never do so again (Ch. 18, pg. 386-87, U.S. edition). So I'm > doubtful that she ran into the exact room that the D.A. had been > practicing in, list and all. > > Or did she simply walk in front of it three times and think, "I need > evidence that a secret meeting was being held here"? That's what the > second part of Umbridge's statement seems to imply, IMO. If that's > the case, then the room did indeed grant a wish for a material > object and produce something other than a location, and it > apparently doesn't care if what it produces will be used for an > immoral purpose. > > Of course, there's always the possibility that walking in front of > the room and thinking, "I need this room to contain exactly what it > did twenty minutes ago" (or "the last time it was used" or "when > Potter was here" or whatever), will open a copy of a previous setup, > and therefore you could indeed enter (and take stuff out of) a > version of the room that had been set up by and for someone else's > needs. Aw, I never said it was a perfect theory. > > Tess Laura: This all seems to be some pretty high-level thinking for Pansy. She's never given any indication of intelligence before. How about this? Do we know how the room is closed? We know, for instance, that the Marauders' Map required a specific set of words to erase itself. What if, in his haste to get everyone out that night, Harry neglected to close the room properly? In that case, it still would have been open intact for whoever walked in. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Aug 9 20:32:06 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:32:06 -0000 Subject: Who Will Betray the Order? (Part 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76300 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > > Dean & Seamus - we don't know enough about these two to vouch for > them one way or the either. Seamus has shown a willingness to turn > on Harry. Dean seems more level-headed. I never thought about them. You know, I actually think that is a very good idea. > The Creevey brothers - With people on this board comparing Peter > Pettigrew to both Ron & Neville, let's not forget that Harry himself > compared Peter to Colin Creevey! Foreshadowing? Those two are > muggle-born though, aren't they? That would make a tough recruit for > Voldemort. When was that mentioned? I only remember a dream scene in POA, where Harry thought Peter looks like Neville. > > > We don't really know too many other students that well (other than > the slimy Slytherins). There's Ernie Macmillan, those two guys who > played beaters for Gryffindor to replace Gred & Forge, Cho's friend > (Edgecomb, was it?), Roger Davies (has he graduated yet?)... anyone > else? The Patils, Lavender Brown, Susan Bones, Hannah Abbott, Justin Finch- Fletchley. Basically you can mention every member of the DA (With the exception of Marietta Edgecombe, who already turned traitor and won't probably be trusted enough in the future.) But the problem I have with these characters is, that they are completely unimportant. It wouldn't be a real shock if one of them turns out to be evil. Surprising yes, but not that horrible. Hickengruendler From yellows at aol.com Sat Aug 9 20:33:09 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 16:33:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The New York Daily News Message-ID: <66B135BE.1C227307.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76301 Wasn't this the publication that released illegal spoilers just before the OoP release? I'm a spoiler junkie, but a number of people on this list who got to it before I did said they wished they hadn't read the article, so I avoided it. Now that all is out in the open, does anyone have a copy of what they actually spoiled? I'd like to see whether it was very significant and whether I would have been upset to have read it ahead of time. :) Brief Chronicles From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Aug 9 20:37:43 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:37:43 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > > > Hi, > Could it be that once a prophecy is fulfilled that it disappears? > The one that Trelawney told Harry was fulfilled completely. > > Susan Not really. It mentioned that V will return more terrible than ever before. And he wasn't more terrible till now. Hickengruendler From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 20:38:13 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809203813.82246.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76303 Buttercup wrote: > > > > After reading the book, I thought he would share > this > > important piece of information with them, but now > I'm > > not so sure. I have a feeling that if anyone else > finds > > out (Ron, Hermione, members of the Order), it'll > be by > > accident. I don't think Harry will divulge this > > information freely.> Jenny From Ravenclaw wrote: > I tend to agree with you here. Harry will be > reluctant to share this > with his friends, especially considering the meaning > behind the > prophecy (or the meaning so far). What I'd like to > ask as well is if > Harry should tell Neville about the prophecy. If > Neville's name is in > any way connected to Voldemort, does he have a right > to know that, or > would it better to leave him out of it? The fact > that Neville was the > only other person left standing with Harry at the > MoM leads me to > think Harry could share some of his burden with > Neville - not the > actual respsonsibility, mind you, but he and Neville > have more in > common than Harry does with either Hermione or Ron. Buttercup: I never thought of this. You're right if there's the slightest chance that the prophecy is actualy meant for Neville, he does have the right to know. And if Harry has any doubts about Dumbledore's interpretation of the prophecy, I'm sure he might consider cluing Neville in. Neville certainly has shown bravery in OotP. Then again Harry being the person he is may want to protect Neville from the burden. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 9 20:38:50 2003 From: dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca (Lee) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:38:50 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76304 *snip* > Another point along the same lines - I know finances are extremely > tight for the Weasleys. But they always seem to have plenty to eat > for all those growing kids. One teenaged boy can eat a family out of > house and home, let alone having 5 teens or near-teens at home. And > Molly seems to pride herself on filling Harry up when he arrives, > half-starved, from the Dursley's. In fact, they seem to take guests > in their stride - I don't get the sense that Molly is fretting about > adding another potato to the soup. I don't remember there being any > livestock at the Burrow, from the canon descriptions. How do they > put such copious amounts of food on the table? > I am going to give a true life example from personal experience on this manner. We already know that Mrs. Weasley has a garden and chickens. Few people realize how much FOOD one can obtain from a garden! My Grandparents are Italian, and about %90 of their food is home grown. Veggies, fruit, eggs, chickens and rabbits, about the only thing they need to buy to have the four food groups is flour for bread, and they used to grow wheat to feed sheep every year so they could, technically, be able to make their flour if they chose to mill it themselves *laughing at the idea of my grandma grinding wheat into flour, that is so like her* Taking into account I'm a small person, one visit to my grandmothers house for about 5 weeks helped me put on about 3 or 4 pounds. If you can beleive it, there are very inexpensive ways to grow food, even for poor famers like my grandparents. Now take the Weasleys...They're wizards! Surely they can make their garden "grow" more quickly and with better results than my granparents. And what sort of "wizard" food ingredients can they whip up from their garden? I'm wondering if Ottery St. Catchpole has a grist mill, or a farmers market. Do they sell some of the food they grow? I think they're doing fine. History tends to show that people with little money will find ways around it. Lee :) From acoteucla at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 20:45:29 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:45:29 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black is Stubby Boardman???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "barbara_mbowen" wrote: > I noticed that Regulus Black, Sirius' kid brother and murdered > DE, had a date of death "fifteen years previously" (p.112). And > Stubby Boardman "retired from public life after being struck in > the ear by a turnip...nearly fifteen years ago" (p192). Good catch! I don't know if it's been discussed before, but I personally like this theory. From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 20:53:05 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 13:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portraits in Dumbledore's Office In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809205305.37234.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76306 Are the portraits in Dumbledore's office like ghosts? The people are dead, but their spirits live in a picture? So when a wizard dies he has a choice of being a ghost, living in a frame, or going beyond the veil. I was just wondering. I have to mention that I love Phineas Nigellus. JKR wrote great lines for him. Don't you think? ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 21:00:04 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 14:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Regulus Black is Stubby Boardman???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030809210004.84265.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76307 > > I noticed that Regulus Black, Sirius' kid brother > and murdered > > DE, had a date of death "fifteen years previously" > (p.112). And > > Stubby Boardman "retired from public life after > being struck in > > the ear by a turnip...nearly fifteen years ago" > (p192). > > acoteucla wrote: Good catch! I don't know if it's been discussed > before, but I > personally like this theory. Buttercup: Possibly...that's why his candle light dinner date thought Stubby was Sirius. They're brothers and they look alike. If Stubby isn't Regulus, I still think he'll come into play in one or both of the last two books. Why else would Sirius have mentioned him to Harry? Harry will probably meet Regulus, who may look like Sirius, and get all excited thinking it's his godfather, only to be disappointed again. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rayheuer3 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 21:00:18 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 17:00:18 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portraits in Dumbledore's Office Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76308 cathio2002 at yahoo.com writes: > Are the portraits in Dumbledore's office like ghosts? > The people are dead, but their spirits live in a > picture? So when a wizard dies he has a choice of > being a ghost, living in a frame, or going beyond the > veil. I was just wondering. I don't think it's a matter of choice. As I see it, JKR is incorporating the old "soul stealer" myths and postulating that whenever a portrait is taken (painted or captured on film), a small part of that person's living essence ("soul", if you like) is captured in the image. Since portraits last for centuries, that portion of the person lives on, apparently able to enter any other portrait (not necessarily their own) until the painting/photograph is destroyed. When the portrait of "The Fat Lady" was destroyed, the image herself was not, so there are apparently "portrait doctors" in the WW. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 21:01:16 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 21:01:16 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76309 Okay, here is what I have: FACTS: 1991 - HRH enter Hogwarts, age 11 (birth 1980). Charlie Weasley has already graduated. 1991 - (SS p153) Gryffindor hasn't won the Quidditch Cup since Charlie left. 1993 - (POA p184)Gryffindor hasn't been in the running for Quidditch Cup for 8 years. (1993-8=1985) If Charlie graduated in 1985, then HRH started 6 years later. So our timeline would be: 1967 - Charlie born 1978 - Charlie starts Hogwarts 1980 - HRH born 1985 - Charlie graduates (last time Gryffindor won Q-Cup) 1991 - HRH start Hogwarts So that makes Charlie 13 years older that HRH, and Bill at least 14 years older. Please check my math (I'm sure someone ;) will.) Extrapoliations: 1966 - Bill born? (latest year) 1977 - Bill starts Hogwarts 1981 - Ginny born Somewhere I remember Ginny saying she has wanted to go to Hogwarts since Bill got his letter? But since Charlie was already in school before HRH were born, Bill would have been in school before Ginny was born. Possible FLINT? Who has anything else to add? Ravenclaw Bookworm (who is amazed the books ever get completed if this is what goes into a *minor* detail...) From acoteucla at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 21:03:14 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 21:03:14 -0000 Subject: Who Will Betray the Order? (Part 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > The Creevey brothers - With people on this board comparing Peter > > Pettigrew to both Ron & Neville, let's not forget that Harry > himself > > compared Peter to Colin Creevey! Foreshadowing? Those two are > > muggle-born though, aren't they? That would make a tough recruit > for > > Voldemort. > > When was that mentioned? I only remember a dream scene in POA, where > Harry thought Peter looks like Neville. You might be right - I can't find the quote. Maybe I'm thinking of the Neville scene, but remembering it as Colin Creevey. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 21:11:30 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 21:11:30 -0000 Subject: The Traitor (was: Colin Creevey...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > wrote: > > (snipped) > > On the other hand, I also think there will be a traitor and that is > > someone who already exists and is seemingly on Harry's side, or at > > least not against him currently. Colin would be an obvious choice > > (maybe to obvious) and I don't know who else could turn willingly. > > > > Hickengruendler > > A while ago I posted that prof. Trelawney refers to Voldemort as "the Dark Lord", like > Harry tells Snape he (Harry) has only heard Death Eaters call LV. In reply to this, > Ximena (post #74179) listed everyone (I think :)) who uses that term, and the most > surprising name on the list was Ernie Macmillan. I haven't been watching him all that > closely, and the Dark Lord theory may not be completely fool- proof... but it's > interesting nevertheless. :) > > evangelina (who never really thanked Ximena properly and blows a kiss in her > direction!) Save me fast-forwarding through all the books, can anyone quote chapter and book for Ernie using the phrase please? Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 21:22:35 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 21:22:35 -0000 Subject: Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76312 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tesseract197" > Laura: > > This all seems to be some pretty high-level thinking for Pansy. > She's never given any indication of intelligence before. > > How about this? Do we know how the room is closed? We know, for > instance, that the Marauders' Map required a specific set of words to > erase itself. What if, in his haste to get everyone out that night, > Harry neglected to close the room properly? In that case, it still > would have been open intact for whoever walked in. Geoff: OOTP p.351 "Dumbledore's Army" "That was really, really good, Harry," said Hermione, when finally it was just her, Harry and Ron who were left. "Yeah, it was," said Ron enthusiastically, as they slipped out of the door and watched it melt back into stone behind them." From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 21:28:35 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 21:28:35 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > Okay, here is what I have: > > 1993 - (POA p184)Gryffindor hasn't been in the running for Quidditch > Cup for 8 years. (1993-8=1985) > If you are counting inclusively and counting in the start and finish years, then 8 years would cover 1986-1993. From chspnll at pacific.net.in Sat Aug 9 23:29:31 2003 From: chspnll at pacific.net.in (saieditor) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 23:29:31 -0000 Subject: Creevey Grows Up Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76314 After reading the Pettigrew-Creevey traitor speculation, examination of the mentions of the Creevey Brothers in OOP reveals only one instance of hero-worship (if it can be called that) of Harry in Hogs Head Inn, and that instance was simply one among others where the narration of Harry's Great Deeds takes place, to verify him as the 0ne who should take the DA class. All the other references to the Creevey brothers show them as either peripheral or part of the larger circle of interest and acquaintance around Harry at School. The Creevey brothers first reappear in OOP in the exchange between Ron and Nearly Headless Nick where Nick has taken affront at Ron: >>>>> Unfortunately, Ron's mouth was packed to exploding point again and all he could manage was 'Node iddum eentup sechew,' which Nick did not seem to think constituted an adequate apology. Rising into the air, he straightened his feathered hat and swept away from them to the other end of the table, coming to rest between the Creevey brothers, Colin and Dennis. >>>>> That brings the brothers back into the narrative. The Creeveys then reappear at the meeting in Hogs Head: >>>>> First came Neville with Dean and Lavender, who were closely followed by Parvati and Padma Patil with (Harry's stomach did a back-flip) Cho and one of her usually-giggling girlfriends, then (on her own and looking so dreamy she might have walked in by accident) Luna Lovegood; then Katie Bell, Alicia Spinnet and Angelina Johnson, Colin and Dennis Creevey... >>>>> At this point, the Creeveys are part of the crowd supportive of Harry and seeing the dire need to actually practise DADA and to achieve something other than just read in Umbridge's classes. Next is the recounting of Harry's deeds in thre Hogs Head inn: >>>> And did you kill a Basilisk with that sword in Dumbledore's office?' demanded Terry Boot. That's what one of the portraits on the wall told me when I was in there last year!' 'Er - yeah, I did, yeah,' said Harry. Justin Finch-Fletchley whistled; the Creevey brothers exchanged awestruck looks and Lavender Brown said 'Wow!' >>>> The Creevey brothers are now very firmly back in the narrative, possibly opening up the past adulation, but the ground is going to change. Students are now responsible for their own welfare in the Umbridge!Administration (or is it Umbridge!Stooge-Interference- Overshadowing of Harry?) so this is serious business. Umbridge is NOT going to look to Student Welfare. Hence the need for DA. The Creeveys are next mentioned in the DA class in the room of requirement as Harrry walks the room observing the spell practice: >>>>> Harry walked around the other pairs, trying to correct those who were doing the spell wrong. Ginny was teamed with Michael Corner; she was doing very well, whereas Michael was either very bad or unwilling to jinx her. Ernie Macmillan was flourishing his wand unnecessarily, giving his partner time to get in under his guard; the Creevey brothers were enthusiastic but erratic and mainly responsible for all the books leaping off the shelves around them; >>>>> So the Creevey brothers have taken to this with enthusiasm, an enthusiasm that might benefit if it be tempered with concentration and more careful application. The next reference to the Creeveys is the narration of Harry sitting in Umbridge's class, reflecting on his pride in the progress of the DA group. Here is a significant mention of Colin Creevey: >>>>> He and the DA were resisting her under her very nose, doing the very thing she and the Ministry most feared, and whenever he was supposed to be reading Wilbert Slinkhard's book during her lessons he dwelled instead on satisfying memories of their most recent meetings, remembering how Neville had successfully disarmed Hermione, how Colin Creevey had mastered the Impediment Jinx after three meetings' hard effort, >>>>> Creevey, along with all the other members of DA, is taking matters seriously, perhaps discipling himself, and seeing personal reward for effort well spent. The Creevey brothers are firmly ensconsed in the DA, firmly pro- Harry, pro-survival, pro-active in the battle against Voldemort. I think the Creevey brothers have grown up. Saieditor From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sat Aug 9 23:29:16 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:29:16 -0400 Subject: Harry's generosity Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76315 I've been wondering what is up with the fountain at the MoM. It was pointed out three times (right?). I think it will be important that Harry dumped all his money in it. Didn't that part seem significant to anyone? Joj From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sat Aug 9 23:43:55 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 19:43:55 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Something I would like to see...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76316 Steven said: I would like to find out that Fred and George have made Harry a secret partner in their Magic Joke Shoppe. Harry gave them the start up capital and I would think it would be a great jesture to make him an unsuspecting partner. Even it is just a token, like 10%. It is not a big thing, but something I would like to see, as it shows good character. Though Fred and George are pranksters, I think they are young men of good character. Joj says: What I?d like to see happen on Privit Drive in book three is- -someone coming to visit Harry on Privit Drive. They can meet at Mrs. Figg? s, so as not to get Harry in trouble. Hermione would probably be the best bet, as she?s muggle born. -I?d like Harry to get some of his wizard money exchanged so he can buy himself some food, and not be at Petunia?s mercy, food wise. -I?d like to see Harry borrow some of Hermione?s books and start studying. Knowledge is power! I?d like Harry to learn as much as he can, and not spend the summer brooding. Of course he?ll mourn, but he can still be constructive. -I hope to see some signs of change in Petunia?s treatment of Harry. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sun Aug 10 00:05:04 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 20:05:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76317 Hickengruendler said; > Also Creevy sounds so like "Creepy". Indeed. Although I am not sure if that isn't a bit overanalyzing. On the other hand, it is surely as reliable as to say, Snape sounds like Snake. Joj says: I think Snape sounds like snipe. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From csalgado at rcn.com Sat Aug 9 23:09:55 2003 From: csalgado at rcn.com (oldone7777) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 23:09:55 -0000 Subject: If you are prepared, Severus- Question answered? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76318 On page 713 GOF Dumbledore asks Snape. "you know what I must as you to do.If you are ready..if you are prepared." Was that question answered in OOP? Did Snape return back into the death Eater fold in good graces? Or was it under probation? He's in meetings with The Order of the Phoenix with information, George confirms it. Pg.69 "Snape?" Harry asked "Is he here?" ..."Giving a report. Top secret." Siruis complains OOP pg.83 "Listening to Snapes' reports, having to take all his snide hints that he's out risking his life while I'm sat on my backside having a nice comfortable time.." Or is ithe is practicing Occlumency on Death Eater "friends" to get information for the order? was it he helped Dumbeldore bring the Order together? Pg.92 " Thanks to you, Dumbledore was able to recall the Order of the Phoenix about an hour after Voldermort returned" said Sirius." Or does it have to do with protecting the Phrophecy? Or preparing to try to teach Occumency to Harry, to keep the "secret weapon" out of Voldemort's hands? I think it was on of these four options, but I'm not sure which. Maybe it was something completely diffrent, that I missed. Does anyone have a opinion on what "If you are prepared" meant? Sincerely, oldone From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 22:33:16 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 22:33:16 -0000 Subject: Abusing the Room of Requirement In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76319 Laura: How about this? Do we know how the room is closed? We know, for > > instance, that the Marauders' Map required a specific set of words > to > > erase itself. What if, in his haste to get everyone out that > night, > > Harry neglected to close the room properly? In that case, it still > > would have been open intact for whoever walked in. > > Geoff: > OOTP p.351 "Dumbledore's Army" > > "That was really, really good, Harry," said Hermione, when finally it > was just her, Harry and Ron who were left. "Yeah, it was," said Ron > enthusiastically, as they slipped out of the door and watched it melt > back into stone behind them." Laura again Okay, Geoff, now you've made me go get my copy of OoP. *smiles* Here's the text from when the DA class is escaping from the Room: "'And I forbid you to hurt yourself!', he [Harry] added, dropping the elf as he made it over the threshold at last and slamming the door behind him." (p 608) So in his haste, Harry didn't stop to make sure that the room disappeared. Previous posts have suggested that the room appears when people need a space in which something specific can happen (to paraphrase the previous posts badly). Since neither Umbridge nor Parkinson needed the room to do any particular activity, they couldn't have made it appear. (They just needed evidence that the room had existed, and they thought they could get that from Naughty Marietta or another member of the class who had been caught.) So I can only assume that it was still open from when Harry and company made their hasty exit. After all, it's not the DA people weren't really done using it when they were forced to escape. From nansense at cts.com Sat Aug 9 22:26:25 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 22:26:25 -0000 Subject: corridor dreams Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76320 "Despite the fact that he was still sleeping badly, still having dreams about corridors and locked doors that made his scar prickle..." p. 118 American, a few pages before the end of The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black. the only discussion I remember about Harry's dreams before p. 118 was in Dudley Demented; Big D taunts Harry for his nightmares about Cedric. After the dementor incident Harry's banished to his room for a few lonely, angry days. We read his spinning conscious thoughts about not hearing from Ron, Hermione or Sirius. I don't remember any dreams, esp dreams with corridors. First night at Grimmauld Place: a brief dream about Hagrid and some mysterious weapon creature; still nothing about corridors. Did I miss a reference to "dreams about corridors and locked doors" that preceded this quote? thx, madeyemood From punystompalot at msn.com Sat Aug 9 21:33:58 2003 From: punystompalot at msn.com (angela_riggio) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 21:33:58 -0000 Subject: I believe it will be harry and Hermione Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76321 I'm sorry if what I'm about to say offends anyone who loves Ron or the prospect of a relationshp between Ron and Hermione. In OOtP J.K. really did a lot for Ron (prefect, Quittach position). Always before Ron's played second fiddle to Harry in EVERYTHING!! Now, from what I gather about Lily Potter she's very Hermione-like; Intellegent, Head girl, and if you recall in OOtP in "Snape's worst nightmare" James, Lupin, Sirius, and Wormtail all eyed Lily's wand very wearily when she pulled it out to threaten them to leave Snape alone. My point is Hermione is destined for great things, and we all know Harry is, it would be a crying shame if these two didn't get together. Harry's just like James, Hermione is like Lily, so why not. As for the "chemistry" between Ron and Hermione, this is just a part of adolescence. Very rarely do you have only one girlfriend or boyfriend while being a teenager. I feel J.K. is intentionally misleading us (she's notorious for throwing us completely off balance at times). It's to obvious, the Ron/Hermione thing. Frankly, (Goodness I'm going to take a lot of heat for this upcoming statement). Hermione is out of Ron's league. Also, Hermione knows EVERYTHING about Harry, she's been there with him through it all, and she always has his back. As for the Cho thing , thank God that's over! During OOtP Cho said, "Oh yes, I forgot - if it was darling Hermione's idea - " (page # 637) She left us little clues like that all over the book about Harry's fondness and respect for Hermione. There may be a love triangle, but sorry guys I just don't think Ron's gonna get the girl. That's just my opinion, I could be wrong, From Pottymouth65 at aol.com Sat Aug 9 21:07:08 2003 From: Pottymouth65 at aol.com (Pottymouth65 at aol.com) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 17:07:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portraits in Dumbledore's Office Message-ID: <1e0.ec11fa1.2c66bc7c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76322 In a message dated 8/9/2003 5:01:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, rayheuer3 at aol.com writes: > cathio2002 at yahoo.com writes: > > >Are the portraits in Dumbledore's office like ghosts? > >The people are dead, but their spirits live in a > >picture? So when a wizard dies he has a choice of > >being a ghost, living in a frame, or going beyond the > >veil. I was just wondering. > > I don't think it's a matter of choice. As I see it, JKR is incorporating > the > old "soul stealer" myths and postulating that whenever a portrait is taken > (painted or captured on film), a small part of that person's living essence > ("soul", if you like) is captured in the image. Since portraits last for > centuries, that portion of the person lives on, apparently able to enter any > other > portrait (not necessarily their own) until the painting/photograph is > destroyed. > > When the portrait of "The Fat Lady" was destroyed, the image herself was > not, > so there are apparently "portrait doctors" in the WW. > > -- Ray > > So, this leads me to wondering - say IF Sirius had a portrait made of himself perhaps years ago, would this portrait be "enchanted" as well? Would that old portrait be able to communicate to Harry and the living? I know of no portrait of Sirius being mentioned, so this is just an "IF" question. ~Traci [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sylviablundell at aol.com Sat Aug 9 20:08:30 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 20:08:30 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kim" wrote: > Hello, > This is an insignificant point, but one that has been nibbling away > in my mind since my first reading of the first book. I wonder about > how wizards procure their food. Do they have grocery stores or > markets? We don't hear about any markets in Diagon Alley (that I can > remember), just the ice cream parlor. We know that there are pubs > and sweet shops and the like, both in Diagon Alley & in Hogsmeade. > But where does a wizard or witch go when they need a can of tuna or > some peanut butter? Surely they don't go to the Muggle market. Do > they just summon their groceries? Do they have a running tab at a > wizard market somewhere (I can just picture tins and boxes zooming > off the shelves as they are summoned)? > > Another point along the same lines - I know finances are extremely > tight for the Weasleys. But they always seem to have plenty to eat > for all those growing kids. One teenaged boy can eat a family out of > house and home, let alone having 5 teens or near-teens at home. And > Molly seems to pride herself on filling Harry up when he arrives, > half-starved, from the Dursley's. In fact, they seem to take guests > in their stride - I don't get the sense that Molly is fretting about > adding another potato to the soup. I don't remember there being any > livestock at the Burrow, from the canon descriptions. How do they > put such copious amounts of food on the table? > > Perhaps I've overlooked something, but this detail has been bugging > me for long enough! Help, anyone? Thanks. > pax > Kim I'm beginning to get a bit concerned about the enormous amount of food consumed by everyone at Hogswarts. Hardly a healthy diet, even for growing teens. Also, apart from lessons, theredoesn't seem to be any supervision by adults. Students go to bed just when they think they will, sometimes not until the early hours. How sad am I to be worrying about fictional characters putting on weight or not getting enough sleep! From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Sat Aug 9 19:15:46 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 11:15:46 -0800 Subject: [HPForGrownups] Who is the head of Ravenclaw house? In-Reply-To: <20030809062433.92985.qmail@web13307.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030809111438.00aafd28@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 76324 At 11:24 PM 8/8/2003 -0700, you wrote: >This question has long bothered me. We know that snape is head of >slytherin, mcgonagall head of gryffindor, and in GoF, Sprout is stated to >be head of Hufflepuff. So what about Ravenclaw? I have combed through my >books, and never found a mention. Does anyone know? Rumor has it that it is Flitwick, I believe the source of that rumor is a JKR interview...it's probably on the Lexicon somewhere.... From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sun Aug 10 01:18:11 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 21:18:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76325 Lziner: This brings up the question of who in the order knew about the prophecy? Everyone was guarding it but did DD tell them why? We never really find out. Now Joj: Well, they talked about a weapon. Were they talking about the prophesy? If yes, I don?t think they knew. Were they talking about Harry? That would mean they did. I think it would be dangerous for anyone who did know the prophesy. Voldemort would do anything to get that info from them. That?s why I don?t think Harry will tell Ron and Hermione, at least not right away. To protect them [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 01:52:04 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:52:04 -0000 Subject: The Traitor (was: Colin Creevey...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > > > wrote: > > > > (snipped) > > > On the other hand, I also think there will be a traitor and that > is > > > someone who already exists and is seemingly on Harry's side, or > at > > > least not against him currently. Colin would be an obvious choice > > > (maybe to obvious) and I don't know who else could turn > willingly. > > > > > > Hickengruendler > > > > A while ago I posted that prof. Trelawney refers to Voldemort > as "the Dark Lord", like > > Harry tells Snape he (Harry) has only heard Death Eaters call LV. > In reply to this, > > Ximena (post #74179) listed everyone (I think :)) who uses that > term, and the most > > surprising name on the list was Ernie Macmillan. I haven't been > watching him all that > > closely, and the Dark Lord theory may not be completely fool- > proof... but it's > > interesting nevertheless. :) > > > > evangelina (who never really thanked Ximena properly and blows a > kiss in her > > direction!) > > Save me fast-forwarding through all the books, can anyone quote > chapter and book for Ernie using the phrase please? > > Geoff As I have nothing better to do (again, and I LIKE it that way)I breezed through CoS and OoP because they're the only books I remember Ernie Macmillan saying anything. In CoS, the Dueling Club Chapter, he says, "*That's* probably why You-Know-Who wanted to kill him in the first place. Didn't want another Dark Lord *competing* with him." (199 US Paperback). Here he didn't say exactly "the Dark Lord" in the sense of calling Voldemort that, but I think it's close enough. But maybe he does it somewhere else that I missed or didn't look at, skipping three whole books in this brief search. KathyK --"Apparently, the other thing I'm chock-full of is not knowing stuff." Fairly Oddparents From chspnll at pacific.net.in Sun Aug 10 02:07:45 2003 From: chspnll at pacific.net.in (saieditor) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:07:45 -0000 Subject: Something I would like to see...... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76327 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: "mom31" wrote: >>>>>>>>> -I'd like to see Harry borrow some of Hermione's books and start studying. Knowledge is power! I'd like Harry to learn as much as he can, and not spend the summer brooding. Of course he'll mourn, but he can still be constructive. >>>>>>>>>> I think Harry has to learn from experience. He is learning at school, and Hogwarts schooling places a foundation. I am sure most of us don't remember our Elementary or High School lessons, unless something memorable occurred in those lessons. We don't get History of Magic with Professor Binns ad nauseum through the book; The only lessons recalled are where Binns departs from his boring syllabus to tell students something which is of importance to them. So lessons reported in the HP Canon are part of the narrative of important experiences in the lives of the students. Hogwarts education has its purpose and lays the foundation. Challenge and reaction, reaction and reflection, are the key learning points for Harry; not slogging through books in his holidays. Reflecting on experience shows him who he is, and it is only after the event others reveal more of the event which expands his experience and then, hhis learning. Harry's learning builds on his previous experience and stretches who he is. Does Brooding, fear, and lurking in the Garden bed hoping to hear Muggle News about extraordinary events add anything to Harry? The "boy who lived" keeps on living, because of this foundation and input by others about both his reaction and his behaviour. Sai Editor From profwildflower at mindspring.com Sun Aug 10 02:21:27 2003 From: profwildflower at mindspring.com (whimsyflower) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:21:27 -0000 Subject: Will Harry tell Ron & Hermione about the prophecy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76328 lziner (post 76263), Buttercup (post 76272), mom31 (posts 76273 and 76325), bboy_mn (post 76275), and jenny_ravenclaw (post 76297) ~apologies if I've missed anyone!~ have all contributed to this thread. me: I agree with mom31 that Harry might make an effort to protect H & R and Neville by not telling them about the prophecy, Harry's always been a "loner," of the I-have-to-do-it-myself mold, but I think/hope one of the things he's learning is that he needs to rely more on others. I think part of his bristling at the "Hero" title is his knowing at some level that he needs to trust/depend on others more. I understand part of the meaning of the "committee" who spoke with the Dursleys in the train station at the end of term was that Harry's not alone. I also think Harry's decisions and his life in general will not "hang together" or make sense without knowing about the tremendous weight he's now carrying. I think Hermione is a keen enough observer to realize something has changed for Harry, and I believe she's curious and shrewd enough to make a good guess. Failing a "good guess" I think she's not likely to let go of the question about why Harry is different until she has an answer that satisfies her. Whimsy From fick.walker at bigpond.com Sun Aug 10 02:46:11 2003 From: fick.walker at bigpond.com (glorificus fickwalker) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:46:11 +1000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? References: <1060366573.9282.12574.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006601c35ee9$94d231a0$06c18b90@fickwalker> No: HPFGUIDX 76329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > is plausible. She goes from being pretty much unnoticeable to > being almost a female version of Harry. In reality, which I know > fiction is not, it takes time for humans to change parts of their > personality they want to improve. And the transformation is > usually gradual and may take years. I think it would be quite hard > for a timid person to all of a sudden be brassy. > Severus said: Buttercup, You have to remember she is the younger sister of six big brothers, so she would probably be very outspoken and an intense tomboy since she was probably picked on somewhat as she grew up, and she has been at Hogwarts for 3 years. Plenty of time to change and grow up some. In my own opinion, I think she was always like this, she was only timid around Harry because she is, or was, quite smitten with him, and that was the only time we saw her interact with people, is with Harry and co.. She speaks to him now because she has gotten to know him and realized he is a real person and not the super being she had imagined him to be (like so many people idolize movie stars). Also since she has had passing boyfriends (normal for my 14 year old) she is much more secure around the object of her affection (Harry could learn from her, he was quite an idiot around Cho, tongue tied and panicky ). --------- >From personal experience, and this is just an option, Ginny quite possibly still feels for Harry, but has resigned herself to the fact that he's her brother best friend or that perhaps she's just waiting for him to turn around and see her there ... Sorry, I know this must sound silly. I've just been in the situation where there's an affection for someone close to you or your family like that and sometimes you have to just ... Try to forget it? That's the wrong way to explain it. Not forget about that person or the way you feel about them, but try to hold it back and not interfere with your friendship with them. Plus with the added pressures for Harry, being 'the one' and all, I'm sure Ginny wouldn't want to add to those worries, especially after things went so disastrously with Cho. Just a thought, Glory xx From kfc4588 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 03:27:57 2003 From: kfc4588 at yahoo.com (kfc4588) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:27:57 -0000 Subject: Portraits in Dumbledore's Office In-Reply-To: <1e0.ec11fa1.2c66bc7c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76330 > > So, this leads me to wondering - say IF Sirius had a portrait made of himself > perhaps years ago, would this portrait be "enchanted" as well? Would that > old portrait be able to communicate to Harry and the living? I know of no > portrait of Sirius being mentioned, so this is just an "IF" question. > > ~Traci > I have a quick question- now i cried for days on end when Sirius died, but what I don't understand is why we are all making theories and devising plans to get Sirius to communicate with Harry again, when we could have been doing this for Harry and James this whole time, I mean if there were ways would he rather speak to James or Sirius..and why wouldn't he have done it before, like when he needed a parent? I don't know.. it just always confused me how it was never a big deal that James was dead (to Harry- not to us because we got to know and love Sirius in a way we never got to with James) but now he (and we) will do ANYTHING to try and get Sirius back.. i dont know if im making any sense ehre but its just a thought -casey- From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 03:29:35 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:29:35 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > > Okay, here is what I have: > > > > > 1993 - (POA p184)Gryffindor hasn't been in the running for > Quidditch > > Cup for 8 years. (1993-8=1985) > > > > If you are counting inclusively and counting in the start and finish > years, then 8 years would cover 1986-1993. If you think in terms of school years, it makes sense. Gryffindor won the Q-Cup in June 1985, the year Charlie graduated. In June 1986, '87, '88, etc, through June 1993, they did not win. McGonagall's statement was made in the fall of 1993 which is school year 1994. Ravenclaw Bookworm From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 03:39:42 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:39:42 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevy's name (wasRe: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76332 June wrote: > Also Creevy sounds so like "Creepy". Sorry if this has been > mentioned before. Isn't Creevy Latin for 'I will grow' or 'I grow'? Ever since my sister pointed this out to me I have been reluctant to put the Creevy brothers into any traitor positions. Of course, I assumed that having a surname which is part of the verb 'to grow' should secure their place on the good side, although, when you think about it, you could grow into evil aswell. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 03:43:16 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:43:16 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevy's name (wasRe: Colin Creevey is Voldemort's Cabana Boy!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > Isn't Creevy Latin for 'I will grow' or 'I grow'? Really. The first thing that comes to my mind with that information is how the Creevy brother are always describes as small and tiny. I'm sure there is a deeper meaning, but I still think it's neat. bibphile From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 03:46:03 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:46:03 -0000 Subject: Sirius' death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76334 I've been reading a lot of posts about *why* Sirius had to die, and as much as I liked Sirius, trying to find meaning in his death seems pointless. JKR herself said that she was trying to show how arbitrary life and death are (webcast transcript). I guess I can relate because I just lost my father after a freak car accident. There was no rhyme or reason for it, someone (whose husband died at the scene) just lost control of her vehicle and ran into my parents' car. My dad fought for 4 months before he died from complications and medical mistakes. I'm a lot older than 16 and knew him my whole life, so I can accept that Dad is gone without feeling abandoned the way Harry does. But my point is that there *is* no reason Sirius had to die. It just happened. JKR did just what she said she was trying to do. Ravenclaw Bookworm From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 04:04:06 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:04:06 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience (was Why Bella didn't disapparate/ OOP Az. effects) In-Reply-To: <44B89406.1E5A47AF.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76335 demetra1225: > > Perhaps Dumbledore didn't "kill" Sirius, maybe he > > volunteered. > Brief Chronicles: > Okay, I either agree or disagree with this. ;) Shocked? > > My reason to disagree: From what I've seen, we have Remus the thinker who has to keep his emotions in check at all times (probably because of his secret), we have Peter the betrayer who is afraid of his destiny, and we have Sirius the lover who acts based on his emotions and without thinking. We don't know enough about James yet to place him. This is how I view the friends. If Sirius is the lover who acts on his emotions without much forward thinking (as we've seen him be in much of his on-screen time, especially in OoP), then I have a hard time imagining him volunteering to die like that. In fact, I can hear him saying, "Why can't it be Severus?" :) Also, I believe that he'd go to Harry with tears and a hug at some strange moment if he knew ahead of time he was going to die. And (forgive me, I don't have a moment to go through the book right now), wasn't it DD who said he didn't think Sirius wanted to die? I can accept that perhaps DD planned Sirius' death (although it hurts to think about), but I have a hard time seeing Sirius accepting it himself. > > Now, my reason to agree: :) It would make a really emotional story told in flashback if JKR wanted to give us one. DD could spill the beans, we could all have a great, big cry, and maybe even Harry's loyalty could be swayed by the harsh reality. > > But I think I lean more toward my reason to disagree. :) > > What are other opinions? > > Brief Chronicles I would very much like to agree that Sirius chose to die for Harry's benefit, but like Brief Chronicles I have to lean toward diagreeing with that theory. I have no doubt that Sirius would do most anything to help Harry, including giving up his life for him. But I don't see him making the decision to die before going to the DoM. For one, Sirius would probably argue strongly that he could do more for Harry alive than dead. As Talisman said in that amazing post (66983) Sirius cares about Harry the person and cares about his happiness while Dumbledore is most interested in (my crude understanding right now as I don't have the post in front of me) how Harry fits into the larger picture of defeating Voldemort. I also think Brief Chronicles is right that Sirius would try to see Harry beforehand, and say something to him. Hypothetically, what would Dumbledore say to convince Sirius? I need you out of the way to prepare Harry for what is to come. I need to see if he's the one who can defeat Voldemort so you have to die and Harry has to be tested. I don't think any reason Dumbledore would give could convince Sirius to just let Bellatrix (or anyone) kill him. Plus, when would this discussion happen? How much planning would have to go into it? Did Dumbledore know how EXACTLY things would play out? That a fight would occur between the Order and the DE's and in that fight Sirius would have to make sure he got killed by a Death Eater in front of Harry? I just can't see it... Ooh,ooh, I just thought of something! Probably others have thought this, but I don't remember seeing anything (of course that doesn't mean I didn't see it, just that I don't remember). Okay, what if Remus "the thinker who has to keep his emotions in check at all times" was the one who caused Sirius to die? I think Talisman mentioned in Message #66983 that the second jet of light, the one that hit Sirius, comes from a point of unknown origin. Reading OoP, it gives the impression that Bellatrix hit him with the light, but it does not say specifically. What if Remus is the one who hit Sirius with a spell, causing him to fall through the veil (or allowing Dumbledore to float him to it)? I can see Dumbledore being able to reason with Lupin in this matter. He would understand Dumbledore's reasoning. He could see that Sirius is in the way. Okay, so maybe that seems quite callous that Lupin could kill his good friend, but for Harry and for the greater good, I think he could be swayed. But then maybe he couldn't do it when it came down to it. What if he was supposed to hit Sirius with the killing curse, but instead only stunned him? Dumbledore sees that Sirius isn't dead and floats him beyond the veil. When Harry wants to go after Dumbledore, Lupin has this understated grief. Because he's lost his friend? Oh, sure, but maybe it's because he knows he just contributed to his friends death? Or maybe Dumbledore killed Sirius on his own but Lupin had an inkling of what was to come? KahtyK From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 04:13:06 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:13:06 -0000 Subject: Portraits in Dumbledore's Office In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kfc4588" wrote: > Traci: > > So, this leads me to wondering - say IF Sirius had a portrait made > of himself > > perhaps years ago, would this portrait be "enchanted" as well? > Would that > > old portrait be able to communicate to Harry and the living? I > know of no > > portrait of Sirius being mentioned, so this is just an "IF" > question. > > > > ~Traci > > > casey: > I have a quick question- > now i cried for days on end when Sirius died, but what I don't > understand is why we are all making theories and devising plans to > get Sirius to communicate with Harry again, when we could have been > doing this for Harry and James this whole time, I mean if there were > ways would he rather speak to James or Sirius..and why wouldn't he > have done it before, like when he needed a parent? I don't know.. it > just always confused me how it was never a big deal that James was > dead (to Harry- not to us because we got to know and love Sirius in a > way we never got to with James) but now he (and we) will do ANYTHING > to try and get Sirius back.. i dont know if im making any sense ehre > but its just a thought > -casey- I'm sure that Harry's thought about what it would be like to be able to see his parents, but the fact is, he pretty much never knew them. They were alive for the first year of his life, but that's all. Sirius was James' best friend and Harry's godfather, so of course Harry was happy to hear that someone (connected to his parents) cared about him/wanted him. Now the reason that Harry wants Sirius back but doesn't seem to want James back as badly is because Sirius is a tangible figure in his life, not some abstract parent who died many years ago. Harry and Sirius had a relationship. They cared about one another and they bonded. Harry simply does not have that same connection to his father, which is sad, but true. KathyK From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 04:36:22 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:36:22 -0000 Subject: corridor dreams In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > "Despite the fact that he was still sleeping badly, still having > dreams about corridors and locked doors that made his scar prickle..." > > p. 118 American, a few pages before the end of The Noble and Most > Ancient House of Black. > > the only discussion I remember about Harry's dreams before p. 118 > was in Dudley Demented; Big D taunts Harry for his nightmares about Cedric. [...] > Did I miss a reference to "dreams about corridors and locked doors" that > preceded this quote? > > thx, > madeyemood At the bottom of pg. 9 (US); "Dudley Demented": "Tomorrow he would have to think of some fresh way of listening to the news. In the meantime, he had nothing to look forward to but another restless, disturbed night, because even when he escaped nightmares about Cedric he had unsettling dreams about long dark corridors, all finishing in dead ends and locked doors, which he supposed had something to do with the trapped feeling he had when he was awake. Often the old scar on this forehead prickled uncomfortably, but he did not fool himself that Ron or Hermione or Sirius would find that very interesting anymore...." I think the reference to the prickling scar right after the "dark corridor" dreams was meant to be a hint that the dreams weren't quite what Harry thought, but of course, like Harry I completely missed it the first time through. That boy is going to have to learn to pay closer attention to his scar, even if he can't figure out why it's hurting most of the time. Annemehr From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sun Aug 10 04:54:38 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:54:38 -0000 Subject: Portraits in Dumbledore's Office In-Reply-To: <20030809205305.37234.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76338 Buttercup wrote: > Are the portraits in Dumbledore's office like ghosts? > The people are dead, but their spirits live in a > picture? So when a wizard dies he has a choice of > being a ghost, living in a frame, or going beyond the > veil. I was just wondering. A similar thread was started a few weeks ago, asking the differences in conciousness between ghosts, photographs, paintings, etc. My theories can be found in message #71718. I don't think paintings are the same as ghosts. Ghosts are actually the person, although in a slightly altered form. Portraits, however, exist separately from their living counterparts. Portraits are generally done while a person is still alive, and I believe magical ones are no different. I believe the painting, at the time of creation, has the exact same personality as the person he or she represents. However, from that point onward, the two are separate beings. Sort of like twins, or clones (real ones, not the sci-fi type): genetically the same, but other than that separate people. Apparently, only one portrait-person can exist for each real person. When a new portrait is created of that person, the portrait-person gains a new accessible location, possibly a new outfit or something, but no new portrait-twin. So, in answer to your question, I think a person has the choice to become a ghost or go on to whatever afterlife there is at the time of his or her death. The portraits-people are completely separate entities. -Corinth From o_caipora at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 05:06:36 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 05:06:36 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76339 "Ali" asked: >(Q 6) Are the likes of Elphias Doge and Emmeline Vance the > equivalent of the "Red shirts" in Star Trek, crew members > introduced to be killed off? "kiricat2001" answered: > And Broderick Bode, who was mentioned in GoF... Rowling speaks Portuguese, in which "bode" is "goat". In Brazil "scapegoat" is "bode expiat?rio" (don't know about Portugual, which is JKR's variety). Bode is certainly sacrificed in the name of plot. So that name fits, and is yet another goat to add to Abelforth's, and the strange smell of the Hog's Head. Does Rowling have a thing for goats? - Caipora From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 05:23:59 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:23:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030810052359.30333.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76340 Hey all! Again, I will give my usual disclaimer - I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts so this may have all ready been said, although I couldn't find it in the archives :-) Now that that's out of the way, my husband and I were talking about OOP last night, and especially about Petunia and her relationship to the wizarding world when a thought struck me. When they are talking about the dementors, Petunia know what they are and where they are supposed to be. When she is asked about it, she says that she heard "that boy" talking about them. Now, I assumed that she was referring to James, but what if she wasn't? Here is my theory: when she was a teenager, Petunia dated, and fell in love with, a wizard. During the course of this relationship they talked about many things, and she learned a lot about the wizarding world. She was so in love with him that she planned a future with him after they finished schooling. However, he was a pure blood, and while dating a muggle was fine with him, he had no intentions of ever marrying her. When he finally told her this, she was devastated and looked at the entire wizarding world in a new light - a very bad light at that. This heart break forever turned her against the wizarding world and anything to do with it. Hence the reason she is so nasty about the WW, yet seems to know so much about it. Well, that's it...what does everyone think? If you think it's completely ridiculous, please don't laugh too hard or send too many howlers my way! :-) Beckah --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 13:15:00 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 13:15:00 -0000 Subject: The Best/Touching Moments In OOTP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76341 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup > wrote: > > > What are your favorite scenes in OOTP? > > > > Geoff: > > Hmmm... Difficult. Very difficult. > > (1) Certainly the whole of the section from Lucius Malfoy's > appearance in the Department of Mysteries right through to > Dumbledore's explanation why he didn't make Harry a prefect. > > (2) The marvellous put down McGonagall uses on Umbridge about the > DADA report during the careers interview. In fact MM's exchanges with > DJU all through the book. > > (3) The tricks and techniques used by the students to pass round > Harry's interview in the Quibbler after Umbridge issued Decree no 27 > baning the magazine. > > That's for starters anyway. > > Geoff Laura One reason I've put off rereading OoP is that Sirius's death and Harry's scenes with Nick, the mirror and Luna made me cry so much. What Nick had to say was especially poignant. DD once referred to death as "the next great adventure". Sirius would never have feared one of those... If we're not talking about heartbreak and anguish, though, the scene where F&G blow Umbridge off and leave the school is brilliant! From melking at charter.net Sat Aug 9 13:59:53 2003 From: melking at charter.net (Melanie King) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 09:59:53 -0400 Subject: Animagus Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000501c35e7e$86f18010$6401a8c0@SERVER> No: HPFGUIDX 76342 Garrett said: > Lupin said that james was a stag, and i think the animal you turn > into is aslo your patronus I don't think so. To produce a Patronus you have to think of your happiest thought - and we are never told what Harry's thought is.remember - he said he was able to produce it to save himself, Hermione and Sirius because he'd already "seen" that he could do it - because he'd seen the Patronus from the other side of the wand so to speak. I think that the Patronus is a form of your happiest thought - which for Harry would be FAMILY. "Melanie King" From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 9 17:16:16 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 17:16:16 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76343 Dear Grownups... I have a question to ask of those here... And of course this assignment is optional. I just want to know what all you (whom I am sure are intelligent insightful adults) have to say against me. I know not all people agree. Afterall I hate pineapples but liking pineapples isn't bad... But hear me out and respond if you like. I have consistently felt that while I like Harry Potter's universe, OOTP is not a great or even good novel. (Trust me when I say I didn't want to think this.) It is (in my opinion) dully written and filled with hackneyed phrases. This hampers my ability to see beyond its surface. It is undenyably repetative - harping on the same points like Umbridge looking like a toad and clearing her throat. I don't have my book here... (it was so expensive that it is making the rounds with friends) but "hot on his heels" is hardly a phrase I expect during one of the most dramatic scenes in the novel. And Hensher of the Spectator was right "feathery cannonball" is truely lamentable writing. Neither really funny nor terribly vivid. Also she used a similar allusion with Errol before anyway. Though it takes on the ideas of racism, parental fallibility, burgeoning sexuality, and a dozen other dark parts of adult life - IMO it fails to scratch beneath the surface of these ideas and explore what they mean. Instead Rowling uses them more as mere plot devices. For example...I never get the feeling Hermione suffers in her quest to help the elves (as abolistionists did in the 18th and 19th centuries) nor does she suffer for being the victim or racism (as children still do around the world). No teacher keeps her down. Noone beats her to a pulp. (She's not scared of Draco's threats even if they anger her.) So while the themes may be good, I FEEL (and I know this is a personal opinion) Rowling has provided little in the way of insight into these themes or the human experience. Harry neither appears traumatised nor truely in pain to me. I want to see it the way you do; try and convince me. I'd love to change my mind. His suffering seems nothing more than that of a bratty teen. And while we may remember being that way (I do), I can't say I felt I learned anything about what it means to be a teenager. Do books have to do all this? Well IMO good books do! That is what it means to be a good book. Otherwise why read? Reading is meant to to add to our stock of experience by entertaining us. Even light parody does this by teaching us to challange what we know and read. Is OOTP just brain candy or is it literature? It can't be both. This of course doesn't mean literature (and OOTP, if it is litertature) can't be fun too. (though I didn't find OOTP to be so). I don't subscribe to the school that say "no pain no gain". But I enjoy the classics and many of the newer books I read. Some I like more than others but I think overall I rarely read bad novels. And I like children's books so that is not it... Michael Bedard's stunning Redwork is one of my favourite novels. It deals with the horror of war and how it can profoundly damage and taint the average soldier. I deals with its hero's sexuality in a way that is both subtle and senstive but unique the experience of that character. So in short I like teenage characters and children's literature. (Of all kinds - dark and light) I will say I like things about OOTP (since I have irked people who feel the need to hear the positive...). I think Rowling has talent - no question. Whoever said Snape is great because he has a rough interior to go with that gruff exterior was right... He is great. So is Arthur Weasley. Sweet, good, a little eccentric. But uncomplicatedly decent (in the best way of course). In OOTP... I liked that Harry just forgot about his second year and what it meant to Ginny. I thought that displayed selfishness (and would have liked to have seen him interplay with that idea more). I adored Percy's selfish arrogance. I loved Neville's time at St. Mungos (so sensitively done) and Molly's breakdown (ditto). But all this did not add up to enough for me. No, I am not an elitist - I love cartoons and comics and a good time. I wouldn't be here if I was. I enjoy XMen, but I can hardly say it is great television. BUt I can't shake the idea that Byatt was in some way right - and I have to ask if Rowling's world is not about the depth and power behind magic and what it brings - what has Rowling to say to me? And is she saying it... So I want to know what you would say to me. Please leave ad hominum arguments at home. I am well aware I could never write HP. But it isn't my job to create HP. I am a reader and feel I have full right to judge work I could never attempt to write. Afterall I paid for OOTP. I deserve a good novel - the best one Rowling can write IMO. Also What have you to say to those downers who claim (and I am becoming one I fear), that other writers are writing far superior books? Have you read them? What do you think about the comparisons or comparisons in general. (Remember I am serious about these questions and am not mocking you. I am one of you - a Potter fan. Just of a different stripe....) And I would like to know if Potter is the only children's lit you are reading. Or what books you loved as kids. And of course why... So what have you to say to my limited Muggle mind.... And remember it is all in a good cause. (Or might be if I get my lazy butt to work on this project.) Thanks for all those who answer, Golly From randomnessrulzthisworld at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 9 17:36:35 2003 From: randomnessrulzthisworld at yahoo.co.uk (randomnessrulzthisworld) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 17:36:35 -0000 Subject: How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin/James/Peter? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76344 I can't remember how you work it out, but in book 5, Lupin, Snape, James, Sirius and Peter are about 35, so now (2003) they would be about 43. From csalgado at rcn.com Sat Aug 9 23:40:30 2003 From: csalgado at rcn.com (oldone7777) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 23:40:30 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76345 Lee says: > I am going to give a true life example from personal experience on > this manner. > > We already know that Mrs. Weasley has a garden and chickens. oldone adds: When we visited my In-laws at Colombia,S.A. Chickens were kept for eggs to eat or sell. Occasionally a chicken was sold to another person. A bountiful garden could add for some income, selling to the stores in town, farmers market, or door to door. Mrs. Weasley could be making a little money at home selling eggs, vegetables, and chickens. This can be added to the family finances. At Colombia chickens were rarely eatten by the family raising them. Chickens were reserved for special guests. When ever we visited one of the family's farm a chicken was killed for us. oldone Thinking of ways to make some cash, oh yea! From daluben4 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 00:57:00 2003 From: daluben4 at yahoo.com (daluben4) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 00:57:00 -0000 Subject: Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76346 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup > wrote: > > Perhaps this has been asked and answered before. If > > so, I missed it. During the first Occlumency lesson, > > why would Snape ask Harry "To whom did the dog > > belong?" Why would he care? It wasn't anything --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Caius Marcius" wrote: > It happened during the first lesson, the first time Snape penetrates > Harry's mind. Snape has always been so accustomed to assume that > Harry is a carbon copy of James - "he's so arrogrant, criticism just > bounces off him" - that he might have been taken aback to catch these > glimpses of just how much Harry was abused and humiliated in his > childhood (we don't know how much Snape knows of Privet Drive). > Perhaps this points - if not to a full reconciliation - to at least a > lessening of hostility between the two in the future. I got the impression that Snape was amused. He hates Harry so much that he found the idea of him being chased by a dog funny. But, I'll have to pay close attention when I read it again and see if it comes across different. I was inclined to believe that there might be a lessening of hostilities between Snape and Harry, too, but their relationship only seemed to get worse in OOTP and I thought JKR made a comment in one of the immediate pre- or -post OOTP interviews that we shouldn't start liking Snape too much. From thecurmudgeons at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 01:09:00 2003 From: thecurmudgeons at yahoo.com (RLC) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:09:00 -0000 Subject: Harry's generosity In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76347 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > I think it will be important that Harry dumped all his money in it. > Didn't that part seem significant to anyone? Only in so far as it contrasted to the Malfoy's donations, which were always anything but anonymous. The tickets for the World Cup were in recognition of a donation to St Mungo's, the jingling of gold in Lucius's pocket as he goes to talk to Fudge (I wonder at the sensitivity of Harry's ears that he can tell silver from gold jingles?), and then there's the Noble Boy Who Lived, who dumps out all the money in his purse anonymously. (It's easier than fitting a camel through the eye of a needle, even for Professor McGonnigle.) I suspect that the Longbottoms are not getting the best of care at St Mungo's, and that Lucius has something to do with it. But there's no cannon evidence for that. The cannon evidence is only that the Malfoys are, for all intents and purposes, their own political action committee. From fc26det at aol.com Sun Aug 10 01:17:21 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:17:21 -0000 Subject: If you are prepared, Severus- Question answered? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oldone7777" wrote: > On page 713 GOF Dumbledore asks Snape. "you know what I must as > you to do.If you are ready..if you are prepared." Was that question > answered in OOP? > > Did Snape return back into the death Eater fold in good graces? > Or is ithe is practicing Occlumency on Death Eater "friends" to > get information for the order? > I think it was on of these four options, but I'm not sure which. > Maybe it was something completely diffrent, that I missed. Does > anyone have a opinion on what "If you are prepared" meant? > > Sincerely, > oldone Hi, I think you are right that he went back to the DE's. The delay in his return could easily have been explained due to the Tri-Wizard Tournament. I think that is why he has been so close to Malfoy. So if the occasion ever came up, he would have someone to speak for him of his loyalty to LV. I think you have to be of strong mental mind for occlumency to work (which Harry was not...due to age and emotions). and I think that was why DD asked him if he was prepared. Just my thoughts. : ) Susan From octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 01:36:22 2003 From: octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com (belsum) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:36:22 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Tell Neville About The Prophecy? (was R & H) In-Reply-To: <20030809203813.82246.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76349 > Jenny From Ravenclaw wrote: > > > What I'd like to > > ask as well is if > > Harry should tell Neville about the prophecy. If > > Neville's name is in > > any way connected to Voldemort, does he have a right > > to know that, or > > would it better to leave him out of it? The fact > > that Neville was the > > only other person left standing with Harry at the > > MoM leads me to > > think Harry could share some of his burden with > > Neville - not the > > actual respsonsibility, mind you, but he and Neville > > have more in > > common than Harry does with either Hermione or Ron. > > Buttercup: > > I never thought of this. You're right if there's the > slightest chance that the prophecy is actualy meant > for Neville, he does have the right to know. And if > Harry has any doubts about Dumbledore's interpretation > of the prophecy, I'm sure he might consider cluing > Neville in. Neville certainly has shown bravery in > OotP. Then again Harry being the person he is may want > to protect Neville from the burden. belsum: I've been wondering about this, too. Neville is getting to be such an interesting character. I'm thrilled that we finally learned details about his family and that he showed such skill for learning DADA. I think it'll be important for Harry to allow Neville a role, and certainly telling him about the prophecy will be integral. Two prophecy boys are better than one! (Plus I just love referring to Neville as Brian. "He's not the messiah, he's a very naughty boy.") From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Sun Aug 10 01:47:11 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:47:11 -0000 Subject: james/ severus relationship Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76350 I've been trying to catch up on posts, so forgive me if either of the following two things has been mentioned and I've overlooked them. I've been listening to OOtP on tape; the first time, I read the book, and just finished hearing the chapter about Snape's worst memory. Anyway, I've tried to pick up on any subtleties, and two things struck me that I didn't catch the first time around. 1. I think Lupin, Sirius, James, Peter, and Severus were all in Slytherin and were all in the same year. I have noticed that there are five boys in the dorm; could it be possible that each year five boys and five girls are placed into each house? I don't know, but I've noticed that Dean and Seamus are quite close, and obviously, so are Ron and Harry. I wonder if MMWP and SS were in similar situation, and SS was a kind of outcast with his dorm mates as Neville has been to this point. Many things lead me to believe that Sirius was in Slytherin, most of all parentage. Could the Hat have considered Harry for Slytherin based on his parentage as well? James' actions in SS memory lead me to believe he is Slytherin material. Wormtail is also Slytherin material for obvious reasons. The only one I can't quite figure is Lupin. 2. It was quite disconcerting to learn that James was so evil to SS, even though 15 year old boys can be quite so. I realize that this theory conflicts with #1, but I'm just thinking. When Lily asks James what he has against Snape, he states something to the effect that the fact that Snape merely exists is reason enough to torture him. What if they are brothers, perhaps? That is the only relationship or even possibly excusable reason for torturing someone based on their mere existence that I can think of. Thanks, abhamghp From sneewittchen at hoffnar.com Sun Aug 10 03:52:10 2003 From: sneewittchen at hoffnar.com (ekristah) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:52:10 -0000 Subject: Portraits in Dumbledore's Office In-Reply-To: <1e0.ec11fa1.2c66bc7c@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76351 Traci said: > ...IF Sirius had a portrait made of himself > perhaps years ago, would this portrait be "enchanted" as well? Would that > old portrait be able to communicate to Harry and the living? Interesting thought, Traci. Maybe the Black's house elf hid the portrait away - one wasn't mentioned among the items discusses in the Black household. Very interesting if it were to crop up somewhere.... -Aileen From carishka2002 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 03:53:26 2003 From: carishka2002 at yahoo.com (Karina Aleksandrova) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:53:26 -0000 Subject: If you are prepared, Severus- Question answered? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76352 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "oldone7777" wrote: > On page 713 GOF Dumbledore asks Snape. "you know what I must as > you to do.If you are ready..if you are prepared." Was that question > answered in OOP? > > Did Snape return back into the death Eater fold in good graces? Or > was it under probation? Well, in OoP, Dolores Umbridge says to Snape, "I expected better, Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you!" It would seem Snape is still in good graces with Voldemort, or else why would Lucius, a Death-Eater have a good opinion of him? I find it rather strange though. Snape didn't apparate to the graveyard at the end of GoF, when Voldemort summoned his followers, and so Voldemort should have been displeased, was displeased, in fact. (quote: "One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course ...") > was it he helped Dumbeldore bring the Order together? Pg.92 " > Thanks to you, Dumbledore was able to recall the Order of the > Phoenix about an hour after Voldermort returned" said Sirius." No, I think it was Sirius' task. (Dumbledore said in GoF: "Sirius, I need you to set off at once. You are to alert Remus Lupin, Arabella Figg, Mundungus Fletcher - the old crowd. Lie low at Lupin's for a while; I will contact you there.") ~Carina From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 06:22:32 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:22:32 -0000 Subject: Weapons (was:Re: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76353 > Lziner: > > This brings up the question of who in the order knew about the > prophecy? Everyone was guarding it but did DD tell them why? We > never really find out. > > > Now Joj: > > > Well, they talked about a weapon. Were they talking about the prophesy? If > yes, I don't think they knew. Were they talking about Harry? That would > mean they did. > > I think it would be dangerous for anyone who did know the prophesy. > Voldemort would do anything to get that info from them. That's why I don't > think Harry will tell Ron and Hermione, at least not right away. To protect > them Annemehr: You know, I am seeing several plot threads here where I think JKR may be deliberately confusing us. Ch. four, Ron speaking: "'--and some of them are standing guard over something," said Ron. "They're always talking about guard duty.' 'Couldn't have been me, could it?' said Harry sarcastically. 'Oh yeah,' said Ron, with a look of dawning comprehension." Ch. five: "'What's he after apart from followers?' Harry asked swiftly. He thought he saw Sirius and Lupin exchange the most fleeting of looks before Sirius said, 'Stuff he can only get by stealth.' When Harry continued to look puzzled, Sirius said, 'Like a weapon. Something he didn't have last time.'" Ch. twenty-one, Harry dreaming about the attack on Mr. Weasley: "Harry put out his tongue....He tasted the man's scent on the air....He was alive but drowsing...sitting in front of a door at the end of the corridor..." Ch. thirty-seven, Dumbledore beginning to explain why he should have told Harry the prophecy long ago: "'Yet there was a flaw in this wonderful plan of mine,' said Dumbledore. 'An obvious flaw that I knew, even then, might be the undoing of it all. and yet, knowing how important it was that my plan should succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this flaw to ruin it. I alone could prevent this, so I alone must be strong. ...'" There are many things going on here that I believe are all interconnected. In the first quote, Ron and Harry are talking about the guard duty the Order members do, and they think they have the explanation -- it was Harry who was being guarded. The third quote illustrates the fact that there is other guard duty which continues -- the guard before the entrance to the Department of Mysteries. Going back to the second quote, Sirius informs Harry that the Order believes Voldemort to be after some type of 'weapon' that he didn't have before, and the fourth quote is part of Dumbledore's explanation of the prophecy: that there is "One" who can defeat the Dark Lord, and that Dumbledore has a *plan* for him. Coming around to my point then. Is the prophecy the weapon that Sirius tells Harry Voldemort wants? It makes perfect sense -- knowledge is a vital weapon in war. But I note that the order are guarding the entrance to the entire Department of Mysteries. Is this merely because it's the most strategically sensible place to guard the prophecy, or ought we to allow for the possibility that there is more in there that the Order would not want Voldemort to find (whether he knows it or not)? One thing I am thinking of here is the locked door where Harry melted his knife, the room where they keep the power that Harry possesses in vast quantities and Voldemort not at all, according to Dumbledore. Even if this power is Love, and Voldemort has no understanding of it, Dumbledore, it seems, still would want to keep Voldemort out of there and does seem to consider it as a weapon on his own side. So we have the Order closely guarding the Dept. of Mysteries and Harry Potter. Harry Potter does seem to be the weapon Dumbledore's truly counting on with his power that's also locked up in the Dept. of Mysteries. As I said, Dumbledore has a *plan* for these 'weapons'. I do have to wonder how much of this the rest of the order knows. In the quote from ch. five, Sirius and Lupin exchange a "fleeting look" which suggests to me that they certainly believe they know what it is that Voldemort is after. We also know that Voldemort was after the prophecy, yes, and though we can see the value in knowing it, some readers have reacted to it by thinking, "is that *it*?" But I'm not sure that that is "it" even for Voldemort. Now, consider this quote from Ch. twenty-two, Harry eavesdropping at St Mungo's, Moody speaking first: "...'So Potter says he saw it all happen?' 'Yes, ' said Mrs. Weasley. She sounded rather uneasy. 'You know, Dumbledore seems almost to have been waiting for Harry to see something like this....' 'Yeah, well,' said Moody, 'there's something funny about the Potter kid, we all know that.' 'Dumbledore seemed worried about Harry when I spoke to him this morning,' whispered Mrs. Weasley. ''Course he's worried,' growled Moody.. 'The boys seeing things from inside You-Know-Who's snake.... Obviously, Potter doesn't realize what that means, but if You-Know-Who's possessing him --'" Harry stops worrying about this after Ginny tells him that Voldemort can't have been possessing him, but personally I think this is much more important. I think that *both* sides in this war are considering Harry as a weapon. I also think it's quite possible that Voldemort's possession of Harry at the MoM was a first attempt, that Voldemort was taking advantage of an opportunity to make an impromtu test. Voldemort did not get Harry into the DoM by possessing him, but my misleading him. Dumbledore had been worrying about Harry being possessed, according to Moody in the above quote. Even though Voldemort tried it once and failed, it seems to have been a 'spur of the moment' attempt, and I think it's something Harry is going to have to deal with again. How can I summarize all this when this post is basically about how JKR is confusing us (well, me anyway)? Voldemort wanted the prophecy because knowledge about HP is a weapon he hopes to use. Dumbledore is guarding the DoM to safeguard that prophecy and *maybe something else*. To Dumbledore, Harry Potter is a weapon, along with the power behind the locked door, and he has made plans regarding them. It seems quite probable that *Voldemort* also hopes to use Harry as a weapon, by possessing him. There are so many clues that OoP is about so much more than just that prophecy. Harry himself seems quite unaware of any of this because he's focusing on "murder or be murdered." I am hoping that, with the help of his friends, he will be able to find his own way. Annemehr From MadameZero at aol.com Sun Aug 10 04:51:33 2003 From: MadameZero at aol.com (Antbee78) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:51:33 -0000 Subject: Who Will Betray the Order? (Part 2) In-Reply-To: <410-2200386917421033@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76354 "Wendy St John" wrote: > I've been thinking rather a lot lately about who the "betrayer" of >the order will be (following the recent thread on this subject). I >do think that someone we trust (and someone Harry trusts) will prove >to be Ever So Evil by the end of Book 7. > ... is it more likely >that the person who betrays Harry will be one of his > peers, or one of the adults that he trusts? > > I've generally thought that it would be one of the adults.... > The adults all have more backstory than the children (just by > virtue of having lived longer), so an adult would have more potential > reasons to switch sides at some point. It also seems to me that one of the > adults is far more likely to have been evil all along - can you > really imagine Hermione, for example, coming to Hogwarts already having > evil intentions of joining Voldemort? So I think I've been mostly > operating under the assumption that one of the adults in Harry's life will > betray him, and have considered McGonagall and Lupin, and most recently > Molly, as being the most likely candidates. AntBee's response: I think it will most likely be an adult that betrays Harry too rather than a peer of Harry's because I can't see anyone that Harry is really close to in his peer group having a reason for betraying Harry. Here is my list of the likely betrayers out of Harry's peer group, but out of the five people listed, only one would be able to get close enough two of them would be close enough to Harry to betray him, but even Percy and Cho aren't really that close to Harry. 1. Michael Corner -If he turned out to be a traitor, it would set up a pattern of Ginny and Cho, trusting the wrong people, but since he's such a minor character that I doubt he will turn out to be the traitor. 2. Zacharias Smith -I think he'll have some kind of role later on, but it's probably too obvious that he'd be the traitor. 3. Percy Weasley -Before OotP, I thought he would never turn his back on his family, so I'm just hoping that he comes to his senses in time before he gets recruited to join the DE's, or I hope that he's actually been undercover. I think like with the case of Zacharias Smith though Percy is too obvious a choice to be the traitor. 4. Cho Chang -I doubt she would betray Harry on her own, but I could see Marietta Edgecomb on the sidelines pumping Cho for any information on Harry and his friends to get revenge. I could also see Marietta suckering Cho into getting Harry and his friends, especially Hermione, at a certain place, in order to spring a trap on them. 5. Seamus Finnegan -If Kirstini's theory on Dean dying in book six comes true, then I could see Seamus possibly turning against Harry, if he feels Harry is responsible. However, I really don't think JKR would rehash the ill will between Harry and Seamus again. Here is my list of suspects out of the adults that Harry knows, and four out of the five are either very close to Harry or could get close to Harry. 1. Lupin -Although I'm not ready to get on Pippin's ESE!Lupin boat yet, some of his actions do make me quite suspicious of him. However, I do think that having two traitors in Harry's parents' inner circle would be a little much. 2. Hagrid -Since it seems like hardly anyone ever considers Hagrid as being ESE, I put him on my list. Of course, he probably wouldn't knowingly betray Harry, but he's already been fooled by Voldemort two times. 3. Mrs. Figg -For some reason, I'm suspicious of Mrs. Figg. Sure she's a squib, but since I don't know enough about her to say for sure that she would say no to any kind of offer by Voldemort to gain magical powers, at this time, I'm listing her as a suspect. 4. One of the aurors that rescued Harry (except for Kingsley Shacklebolt and Tonks) -I can't even remember their names, but they do know the layout of the Dursley's home now. 5. Snape (For Darrin) -I am watching him closely because of what JKR said at the Royal Albert Hall, but I think he's too obvious a choice. Finally, I forgot who posted this a few days ago, but now that I've thought about it, I do think that Harry could end up being the betrayer, depending on how JKR writes his anger and grief in book six. From l10r77 at juno.com Sun Aug 10 05:56:42 2003 From: l10r77 at juno.com (lisanicr) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 05:56:42 -0000 Subject: Dark Mark question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76355 I couldn't find this referenced anywhere but... I'm re-reading GoF and in the scene where Karkaroff shows Snape that his Dark Mark is getting clearer...does that mean that the mark is normally, or relatively invisible when circumstances dictate? I mean, when LV is not around, does the mark disappear completely? Perhaps that's why it was such a job identifying true DE's after the downfall of LV? Thanks! Lisa From michelle_malfoy at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 03:58:12 2003 From: michelle_malfoy at hotmail.com (michelle_malfoy18) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:58:12 -0000 Subject: Communicating with Sirius? (WAS: Portraits in Dumbledore's Office) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76356 -casey- wrote: > now i cried for days on end when Sirius died, but what I don't > understand is why we are all making theories and devising plans to > get Sirius to communicate with Harry again, when we could have been > doing this for Harry and James this whole time.... Good point, but I believe the reasoning behind this is as you pointed out we got to know Sirius, and so did Harry. You see Harry doesn't really remember(sp?) his parents; but when he met Sirius, Sirius became the embodiment of mother, father and godfather all in one. Sirius cared for Harry just as if Harry had been his own son. And Harry too cared for Sirius as he would have his father. So when Sirius died, Harry not only lost Sirius but every link he had to his reall family ( his parents). This magnified everything for our young heroine(sp?). It was as if he was re-living evrything all over again and at a really fragil stage in his life! Hope, this clears up some of the confusion. This is what Sirius's death meant for me so it was only natural to me at least to see Harry reacting the way he did! Michelle Malfoy From melking at charter.net Sat Aug 9 14:02:43 2003 From: melking at charter.net (Melanie King) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:02:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] AtomBomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000f01c35e7e$ea6629c0$6401a8c0@SERVER> No: HPFGUIDX 76357 >>>Squee: Since places like Hogwarts and the Quidditch Cup Stadium are spelled to make muggles avoid them (and make muggle artifacts not work in them?) - if someone was say flying overhead and dropped an atom-bomb - would it go off? Would it fall crooked? What?<<<< Dan: >>>>I think it would just not work. Remember that muggle technology doesn't work around Hogwarts. Perhaps at the Quidditch Stadium, there is enough magic to interfere with the nuclear bomb, disarming it. Besides, there are probably spells security wizards could use to break it. Then again, I'm not all that sure how atomic bombs function. Alas.<<<< I would think they couldn't fly over them to drop the bomb..remember - some of the spells make tourist think they've forgotten something important and they leave? Also, for guided bombs, I think that the electronics would just fail and it would plummet to the ground softly. "Melanie King" From melking at charter.net Sat Aug 9 14:05:12 2003 From: melking at charter.net (Melanie King) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:05:12 -0400 Subject: Auror training an epilogue to HP: very clever JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001401c35e7f$4367f5d0$6401a8c0@SERVER> No: HPFGUIDX 76358 Allie said: >>>>I haven't seen any other threads about this particular topic yet... how clever of JKR to throw in Harry wanting to be an Auror... and Professor MacGonagall telling Harry that becoming an Auror requires 3 more years of training. Leaving herself a way to keep writing the HP series after Harry finishes Hogwarts and defeats lord thingy (which I have NO DOUBT he will). Did anyone else think that? Maybe we'll have 5 more books and not just 2. :) <<<<< Who says that Voldemort will be finished off in book 7? I, too, caught the 3 additional years of study.so my thought is that he will go to "Auror School" and then finish off Voldemort 2 years after that.I really think there will be 12 books. We still haven't figured out what's with the number 12 in all her books.I think that's her clue. "Melanie King" From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 10 06:46:27 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:46:27 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76359 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > > wrote: > > > Okay, here is what I have: > > > > > > > > 1993 - (POA p184)Gryffindor hasn't been in the running for > > Quidditch > > > Cup for 8 years. (1993-8=1985) Geoff: > > If you are counting inclusively and counting in the start and > finish > > years, then 8 years would cover 1986-1993. Ravenclaw Bookworm: > If you think in terms of school years, it makes sense. Gryffindor > won the Q-Cup in June 1985, the year Charlie graduated. In June > 1986, '87, '88, etc, through June 1993, they did not win. > McGonagall's statement was made in the fall of 1993 which is school > year 1994. Geoff: I think we're agreeing. June 86 to June 93 is eight Junes. From melking at charter.net Sat Aug 9 16:02:31 2003 From: melking at charter.net (Melanie King) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 12:02:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Family & Money In-Reply-To: <1a0.18c820a7.2c64493d@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c35e8f$a72c2bd0$6401a8c0@SERVER> No: HPFGUIDX 76360 Bren said: >>>Harry must have other family members somewhere in the wizarding world shouldn't he? After reading all of the connections to and within the Black family it seems strange that Harry would be the absolute end of the Potter blood line. <<<< I've often wondered the same thing about James' family.did they all just vanish? Did Voldemort get them? I wonder why Harry hasn't inquired about them? He's asked about a lot of other stuff but not the rest of his family..wouldn't he have cousins? Melanie From ktd7 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 06:52:04 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:52:04 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Dear Grownups... > > I have a question to ask of those here... And of course this > assignment is optional. I just want to know what all you (whom I am > sure are intelligent insightful adults) have to say against me. I > know not all people agree. Afterall I hate pineapples but liking > pineapples isn't bad... But hear me out and respond if you like. > It is okay to have a differing opinion! Otherwise we'd all agree and there'd be no room for discussion. Although I don't expect to necessarily change your mind, I would like to point out a couple of things that might help you understand the opposing views... :-) Cliches, hackneyed phrases, trite expressions; these are the way we often talk. In general, we are not Faulkners or Hemmingways in our everyday speech. One of the reasons for this is that a well-worn (to use a hackneyed phrase) cliche often provides more meaning. It is something that everyone can relate to and understand instantly. Originality is prized, but frequently is not as communicative. One of my favorite books and TV series, "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" Talks about the Volgon ships hovering over the Earth "exactly the way bricks don't". Very original, very funny, but not something that is instantly understood. That being said, there is a phrase in the first chapter of OoTP that struck me as especially poetic: "Almost as the though this thought had fluttered through the open window, Vernon Dursley, Harry's Uncle, suddenly spoke." What a great visual image! The idea of a thought fluttering around! This isn't the only poetic imagery in the book, just a phrase that really caught my attention. I've heard a few others complain about OotP, but I look at it as a setup for a very large battle to come. I do suggest you re-read it if you haven't already. The first time through I was anxious to see what would happen. The second time, I took my time and read more analytically. There are several key scenes that I think will be important later on. There are key themes that are also played out in this book that I also expect to be crucial to the final chapter. Karen From tfantinel at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 03:23:06 2003 From: tfantinel at yahoo.com (tfantinel) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 03:23:06 -0000 Subject: SHIP I believe it will be harry and Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76362 Angela said: My point is > Hermione is destined for great things, and we all know Harry is, it > would be a crying shame if these two didn't get together. Harry's > just like James, Hermione is like Lily, so why not. As for > the "chemistry" between Ron and Hermione, this is just a part of > adolescence. Very rarely do you have only one girlfriend or boyfriend > while being a teenager. I feel J.K. is intentionally misleading us > (she's notorious for throwing us completely off balance at times). > It's to obvious, the Ron/Hermione thing. Frankly, (Goodness I'm going > to take a lot of heat for this upcoming statement). Hermione is out > of Ron's league. Also, Hermione knows EVERYTHING about Harry, she's > been there with him through it all, and she always has his back. As > for the Cho thing , thank God that's over! During OOtP Cho said, "Oh > yes, I forgot - if it was darling Hermione's idea - " (page # 637) > She left us little clues like that all over the book about Harry's > fondness and respect for Hermione. There may be a love triangle, but > sorry guys I just don't think Ron's gonna get the girl. > > That's just my opinion, I could be wrong, I say: After OotP, I agree that Hermoine is probably not the best choice for Ron. I might change my mind after book 6; boys often need a year to catch up to girls, and I've sensed the possibility of them since book 2. But I don't think she is the best romantic choice for Harry, either. His conscience has Hermoine's voice. It's pretty hard to fall in love with your conscience. I agree that she will do (and has done) awesome things. She will be very instrumental in whatever the end of the series is. And Harry needs her by his side. But I don't think she will be his love interest for all the reasons Angela mentioned. She knows everything about him, has been with him through everything; guys don't usually fall for that girl in their lives. Having said all that, I'm rather open to whatever pairings JKR wishes to show us and would be interested to see how Harry+Hermoine would work in the context of the story. Be kind. This is my first post. :) From artcase at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 06:41:00 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:41:00 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Dear Grownups... > > I have a question to ask of those here... > *edited for space* and I have > to ask if Rowling's world is not about the depth and power behind > magic and what it brings - what has Rowling to say to me? And is she > saying it... First, I would like to say that what JKR is doing is not literature, in a true sense of the word if you subscribe to post Joyce mentality. However, she does weave a good yarn. And THAT makes the series good. Gramatically, they are amatuer at best with subject/verb agreement problems all over the place, prepositional phrases that meander, and basically poor sentence structure. That said, one must remember, she did not graduate from Oxford with a masters or equivalent in English. I find many occasions where I explain to my children (while finishing GOF) exactly who did what in a sentence. She remedied this to some extent in OOP, but still clings to unnecessary adverb (think "-ly") words) useage. In time that will change as she grows as a writer. One last word about the depth and power behind the magic. OOP made me "live" in the HP world in my imagination. That warrants a thumb's up. While JKR is no Tolkien (when comparing mastery of the English language) she is IMO gaining ground on Mark Twain. Here's a thought to consider when "depth of character" is mentioned: Gertrude Stein had coined the term "Lost Generation" to describe the young men who had served in WWI and were forced to grow up "to find all Gods dead, all wars fought, all faiths in man shaken." There was a truly poetic way to describe what HP will be facing in the next two books. *Just something to think about* Art From artcase at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 06:54:40 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:54:40 -0000 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: <000f01c35e7e$ea6629c0$6401a8c0@SERVER> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76364 Squee said: > Since places like Hogwarts and the Quidditch Cup > Stadium are spelled to make muggles avoid them (and > make muggle artifacts not work in them?) - if someone > was say flying overhead and dropped an atom-bomb - > would it go off? Would it fall crooked? <<<< Personally, I consider it to be the "Bermuda Triangle Effect" where radar and other navigational devices go haywire, forcing the pilots to scrub their mission. Once I read the the circle of Stonehedge gives off such magnetic disturbances also, but I'm not certain of the validity of this source, so it remains one of those silly tidbits of info stuck onto the walls of my brain like old band flyers on the wall. Art From melking at charter.net Sat Aug 9 14:01:03 2003 From: melking at charter.net (Melanie King) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:01:03 -0400 Subject: Source for JKR interviews In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000a01c35e7e$aef66760$6401a8c0@SERVER> No: HPFGUIDX 76365 Someone asked if there was a compilation of JKR's quotes. All of her "quotes" are already compiled. check http://www.quick-quote-quill.org From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 07:19:27 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:19:27 -0000 Subject: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" In-Reply-To: <20030810052359.30333.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76366 Beckah: > Hey all! Again, I will give my usual disclaimer - I haven't been able to keep up with all the posts so this may have all ready been said, although I couldn't find it in the archives :-) Now that that's out of the way, my husband and I were talking about OOP last night, and especially about Petunia and her relationship to the wizarding world when a thought struck me. When they are talking about the dementors, Petunia know what they are and where they are supposed to be. When she is asked about it, she says that she heard "that boy" talking about them. Now, I assumed that she was referring to James, but what if she wasn't? Here is my theory: when she was a teenager, Petunia dated, and fell in love with, a wizard. During the course of this relationship they talked about many things, and she learned a lot about the wizarding world. She was so in love with him that she planned a future with him after they finished schooling. However, he was a pure blood, and while dating a muggle was fine > with him, he had no intentions of ever marrying her. When he finally told her this, she was devastated and looked at the entire wizarding world in a new light - a very bad light at that. This heart break forever turned her against the wizarding world and anything to do with it. Hence the reason she is so nasty about the WW, yet seems to know so much about it. Well, that's it...what does everyone think? If you think it's completely ridiculous, please don't laugh too hard or send too > many howlers my way! :-) > > > Beckah > How very interesting! When I first read about "that boy" I also thought that it was probably James. But, like you, I thought maybe she was talking about someone else and knew more about the WW than she was letting on. Actually, I finally concluded that Petunia was lying through her teeth with that phrase and that she just said she heard James talking about it to Lily because she needed to cover the slip up she'd just made in front of her family that would have shown she was in contact with wizards after taking Harry in. But I like your idea, too! Do you suppose she met this boy through Lily, or somehow independently? I especially like the idea of the boy being a pureblood having some fun with a muggle while in school and having to later settle down with a proper witch. And Petunia held it against her own sister! KathyK From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Aug 10 07:24:41 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:24:41 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: What I'd like to ask as well is if > Harry should tell Neville about the prophecy. If Neville's name is in > any way connected to Voldemort, does he have a right to know that, or > would it better to leave him out of it? The fact that Neville was the > only other person left standing with Harry at the MoM leads me to > think Harry could share some of his burden with Neville - not the > actual respsonsibility, mind you, but he and Neville have more in > common than Harry does with either Hermione or Ron. > > Or maybe it's just that now I like Neville so much, I want him to be a > part of everything from now on. :-) > > --jenny from ravenclaw *********************************** Personally, I think either Dumbledore or Harry HAS to tell Neville. Especially, because Voldemort only knows the part of the prophecy that refers to both boys. Therefore, there is at least the possibility that Voldemort wants to kill both boys because of the prophecy, and Neville must IMO be warned. But maybe his grandmother already knows and decides to tell him. Hickengruendler From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 10 06:43:08 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:43:08 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and purity of blood References: <410-22003869181219916@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <3F35E97C.6070404@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76368 Wendy St John wrote: > oh have faith wrote: > >>Besides, apart from one "mudblood" shouted in rage when he was a >>defensive, embarassed fifteen year old, there's no evidence in the >>books that Snape dislikes the muggle-born any more than he dislikes >>absolutely everybody else. The only evidence we have about his >>current beliefs is that he works for the Order - and that suggests >>the contrary. He's an equal opportunities hater! > > To which T.M. Sommers replied: > > "In the real world, anyone using such an epithet would be > instantly and permanently branded a racist. I see no reason to > make a special case of Snape." > > Now me (Wendy): > > I *strongly* disagree with this statement. I personally have a hard time > branding anyone "instantly and permanently" as anything. I'm not saying it's right, but that is exactly what happens in the real world. Publically call a person of African descent a certain epithet (considered so vile that it can't even be uttered by reference), join the Klan, and then see if anyone ever believes that you aren't a racist, no matter what you do or say later in life. > Do you not allow > that people can change their beliefs about things? Of course they can, but in the real world no one will believe it. Certainly they won't believe it on the kind of evidence being used to 'prove' that Snape is pure of heart. In Snape's case, not only did he use that epithet, he became a DE. Not only a DE, but in Voldemort's inner circle. Even now he is head of Slytherin house. Against that there is not a shred of positive evidence that he has renounced his former beliefs. Not once has he said, "All that pure-blood stuff is a load of hooey." From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 10 06:45:47 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:45:47 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape and purity of blood References: Message-ID: <3F35EA1B.7050000@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76369 marika_thestral wrote: > I totally agree with you Wendy. We don't know if Snape really meant > what he said or not. Like so many on this list have said before, the > guy was humiliated, and then it's easy to say things you normally > wouldn't say. It's equally likely he meant it at the time, but not > anymore. I can also see that he just grabbed the first insult he > could think of without even thinking about what it really meant or > weather he agreed to the meaning of it or not. When I was about eight > years old, it was very common that the boys in my class used the > word "gay" to insult somebody. I bet half of them didn't know what it > meant, and that the other half really didn't dislike homosexuals - at > least not at the time. Some of them probably grew up being homofobic > while others grew up being homosexual themselves. And if one of those people had joined an organization the policy of which was to beat up homosexuals, would you still say that he never meant any of it? From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 10 06:48:14 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:48:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry=halfblood? References: Message-ID: <3F35EAAE.9080202@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76370 Geoff Bannister wrote: > > Possibly. But in the heat of the moment, HP might have responded with > something semantic like "Who are you calling a half-blood, you old > hag?" or some equally suitable comment. And if he had done so, he would have been validating the idea that "half-blood" is insulting. From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Sun Aug 10 07:34:35 2003 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:34:35 -0000 Subject: Where are we headed in #6? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sienna291973" wrote: > On the second point you make, I'm wondering whether or not there > is > some pattern here we can analyse. We have seven books. Assuming > that the seventh book will be the wrap up/ climax, may not the other > six books in some way relfect each other? In other words, could we > predict some of what will be happen in book six by looking at PoA? > > Both PS and GoF see Harry completing a series of trials or a quest to > achieve his goal. CoS and OoTP both see Harry discovering important > things about his connection with Voldemort. So perhaps an analysis > of PoA will give us important clues as to what we can expect from > book 6? > > Just a thought but I'd be interested in any theories (my > apologies if > this has already been discussed and for the length of this post). > > Sienna > :) I like this idea. Book 4 is like Book 1 and Book 5 is like Book 2. So, when it comes to Book 6, it will become a reflection of Book 3 (where PoA is my favourite). There're no Volemort in PoA, but the speculation of the loyal servant of Volemart, which happened to Peter Pettigrew when almost all people believed to be Sirius Black. That's why I reckon we will find more about Snape in Book 6. Is he a real supporter of Dumbledore and the Order or a double agent who plays tricks all the time and go over to whichever side is more powerful. - Angel From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 07:56:40 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:56:40 -0000 Subject: More Points to Ponder: The Prophecies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76372 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > > > > > > > Hi, > > Could it be that once a prophecy is fulfilled that it disappears? > > The one that Trelawney told Harry was fulfilled completely. > > > > Susan > > Not really. It mentioned that V will return more terrible than ever > before. And he wasn't more terrible till now. > > Hickengruendler bboy_mn: If you re-read that section in the Hall of Prophecies, Harry notices that some of the globes are glowing, and others look like burnt out light bulbs. I'm guessing the ones that look like burnt out light bulbs are prophecies that have already 'expired'. Also, none of the prophecies related to Harry mention Voldemort or Tom Riddle, they all speak of the Dark Lord. Just a thought. bboy_mn From buffyeton at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 08:00:48 2003 From: buffyeton at yahoo.com (Tamara) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:00:48 -0000 Subject: Magic Without Wands? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76373 Can wizards and witches do magic without their wands or a potion? Tamara From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sun Aug 10 08:06:36 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:06:36 -0000 Subject: Snape and purity of blood In-Reply-To: <3F35EA1B.7050000@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76374 Marika wrote: > > When I was about eight > > years old, it was very common that the boys in my class used the > > word "gay" to insult somebody. I bet half of them didn't know what it > > meant, and that the other half really didn't dislike homosexuals - at > > least not at the time. Some of them probably grew up being homofobic > > while others grew up being homosexual themselves. T.M. Sommers replied: > And if one of those people had joined an organization the policy > of which was to beat up homosexuals, would you still say that he > never meant any of it? In generel I would say they did, but not necessarily. People sometimes do the weirderst things. I know this girl who joined both a conservative and a socialist youth organization, because she enjoyed the social activities, specially the parties. Some kids hang around skinheads because they are full of hate and anger, and they like to drink. After a while they realize that they don't like what these people stand for and leave. To apply this on Snape - I want to know what he did when he was a Death Eater before I decide that he can't be trusted and didn't deserve the second chance Dumbledore was willing to give him. Marika From subrosax at earthlink.net Sun Aug 10 08:32:10 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:32:10 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Dear Grownups... > I have consistently felt that while I like Harry Potter's universe, > OOTP is not a great or even good novel. (Trust me when I say I didn't > want to think this.) It is (in my opinion) dully written and filled > with hackneyed phrases. This hampers my ability to see beyond its > surface. It is undenyably repetative - harping on the same points > like Umbridge looking like a toad and clearing her throat. I don't > have my book here... (it was so expensive that it is making the > rounds with friends) but "hot on his heels" is hardly a phrase I > expect during one of the most dramatic scenes in the novel. And > Hensher of the Spectator was right "feathery cannonball" is truely > lamentable writing. Neither really funny nor terribly vivid. Also > she used a similar allusion with Errol before anyway. > > Do books have to do all this? Well IMO good books do! That is what > it means to be a good book. Otherwise why read? Reading is meant to > to add to our stock of experience by entertaining us. Even light > parody does this by teaching us to challange what we know and read. > Is OOTP just brain candy or is it literature? It can't be both. This > of course doesn't mean literature (and OOTP, if it is litertature) > can't be fun too. (though I didn't find OOTP to be so). I don't > subscribe to the school that say "no pain no gain". But I enjoy the > classics and many of the newer books I read. Some I like more than > others but I think overall I rarely read bad novels. And I like > children's books so that is not it... Michael Bedard's stunning > Redwork is one of my favourite novels. > Golly Oh, Please! Not to be snarky, but this post strikes me as being awfully pretentious. Why does it pain you to say that OoP is neither a good or great novel? It certainly doesn't pain me. I don't feel any compulsion to justify my love of the books by claiming they are great literature. They aren't, in my opinion. The last book I read before OoP came out was "The Magic Mountain" by Thomas Mann. No question in my mind which was the better book, but you wouldn't catch me on some public forum discussing the particulars of that 700 page sleeping pill. The Harry Potter fans in my circle of friends are all persons with advanced degrees and plenty of fancy book lernin'. (One of them, a professor of philosophy, actually read the first book because he thought it was a kid's book that had something to do with..well, philosophy!)I haven't heard anyone complain about JKR's somewhat clunky writing style, because no one cares, frankly. I, for one, will not rise to the challenge of defending OoP. I shouldn't have to and neither should anyone else. If you prefer not to read "bad" books, then by all means don't. I'm sure I'm not alone when I say that I eagarly await JKR's next hackneyed and dully written book. Allyson From gypseelynn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 09:34:10 2003 From: gypseelynn at yahoo.com (Rebecca Sylvester) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 02:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030810093410.77465.qmail@web41506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76376 KathyK wrote: How very interesting! When I first read about "that boy" I also thought that it was probably James. But, like you, I thought maybe she was talking about someone else and knew more about the WW than she was letting on. Actually, I finally concluded that Petunia was lying through her teeth with that phrase and that she just said she heard James talking about it to Lily because she needed to cover the slip up she'd just made in front of her family that would have shown she was in contact with wizards after taking Harry in. But I like your idea, too! Do you suppose she met this boy through Lily, or somehow independently? I especially like the idea of the boy being a pureblood having some fun with a muggle while in school and having to later settle down with a proper witch. And Petunia held it against her own sister! KathyK Hi! I do think that she med this wizard through Lily. After all, their parents were "thrilled to have a witch in the family" so it stands to reason that when Lily started having wizard friends and boyfriends, they would have come over to the house to visit...which would be how Petunia met them. When I first thought of this idea, I wasn't too sure about it, but the more I think about it the more I warm to it :-) Beckah Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 10 09:43:06 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:43:06 -0000 Subject: Who Will Betray the Order? (Part 2) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" > wrote: > > So, I'd like to hear what others have to say about this. Do you > think that > > it's more likely one of the adults will be the one to betray Harry > > (assuming that someone does), or will it be one of his > friends/classmates? > > Why not both? I think spies & betrayals might become commonplace in > the last two books. We'll see. > A point to ponder. Is betrayal of Harry and betrayal of the Order necessarily the same thing? Some-one who is not a member probably wouldn't know enough to betray it, excepting of course, Harry, who is high on my list of potential agents of destruction. Similarly, as I've previously speculated, I can believe that DD would sacrifice (does that count as betrayal?) the Order to ensure the defeat of Voldemort. Kneasy From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 11:35:37 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 04:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dudley Demented.... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030810113537.20377.qmail@web20707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76378 Remus Lupin said in PoA ('Marauder's Map'), 'Dementors are among the foulest creatures that walk this earth. [...]Even Muggles feel their presence, though they can't see them.' So whether Dudley is a muggle or a wizard he would feel Dementors. And to me it seemed that he didn't see them - he ran right at one, and later he seemed to think it was all Harry's fault. He didn't tell his parents of cloaked figures, simply said 'Him', so unless he saw a Dementor before (which is unlikely), I assume he meant Harry. ~Carina My reply: I think the most important thing about that scene is what has happened in Dudley's life that could make him that scared. The only theory that I have been able to really work is the one where he accidently did magic. Now is he a wizard that's magic is be repressed. And is it possible to somehow repress magic? And what happens if a muggle would refuse to sent their child to Hogwarts. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 12:33:03 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:33:03 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76379 To say that I'm digging this album would be an understatement Harry Potter (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Richard Cory_ by Simon and Garfunkel) A Windows snippet is here (sorry, no Midi for this one...too bad, 'cause the song is cool...buy the album): http://www.buy.com/retail/music/product.asp?sku=60561628 Dedicated to Josh We read 'bout Harry Potter in books by J. K. Rowling Hogwarts School of Wizardry is where he is going He has a wand that's magical, he's learning real cool stuff Takes classes in Transfiguration, Potions Charms and such But we attended U. of M. And we have a Bachelor's degree And we sit behind modems But we really wish we were Oh, we really wish we were Oh, we really wish we were Harry Potter This boy he is a millionaire, has a bank vault full of gold Harry Potter's a celebrity, Harry Potter they all know And he owns a flying broomstick, the best on the market And he lives inside a castle, Harry is so fortunate But us, we're working nine to five To pay for the monthly rent And for the car we drive But we really wish we were Oh, we really wish we were Oh, we really wish we were Harry Potter Voldemort came after Harry, both his parents he did loose And he was raised by his aunt and uncle, at Privet Drive he was abused And a burden he must shoulder, a prophecy he must fulfill It has to do with Voldemort, either kill him or be killed But we are only mundane folk When we consider his problems We're relieved we're not that bloke So we're glad that we are not Oh, we're glad that we are not Oh, we're glad that we are not Harry Potter -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sun Aug 10 12:38:29 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:38:29 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76380 Art wrote: > First, I would like to say that what JKR is doing is not literature, in a true sense of the word if you subscribe to post Joyce mentality. My god. That was harsh. IMO, everything that's written is literature. But then, I'm just really uneducated and choose books by subject rather than impressive language. > However, she does weave a good yarn. And THAT makes the series good. > Gramatically, they are amatuer at best with subject/verb agreement > problems all over the place, prepositional phrases that meander, and > basically poor sentence structure. That said, one must remember, she > did not graduate from Oxford with a masters or equivalent in English. > I find many occasions where I explain to my children (while finishing > GOF) exactly who did what in a sentence. She remedied this to some > extent in OOP, but still clings to unnecessary adverb (think "-ly") > words) useage. In time that will change as she grows as a writer. You're still being harsh! The "-ly" form is one of my favorite aspects of the entire english language though (except the "-ing" -- so much easier than swedish), and I can't really object to things like poor sentence structure regarding a language that is not my first, but I *never* found OotP that gramatically awful! In fact the Swedish translations seem really poor to me now that I've read one HP book in its original language. Oh, I know that every one of my arguments can be trashed in an instant, but several times during reading I was completely entranced by some of the sentences. (Such as "the cloudless sky smiled at itself in the smoothly sparkling lake" -- just one example from the top of my head) And no, I never had to wonder who did what. > One last word about the depth and power behind the magic. OOP made > me "live" in the HP world in my imagination. That warrants a thumb's > up. While JKR is no Tolkien (when comparing mastery of the English > language) she is IMO gaining ground on Mark Twain. Again, I'm too uneducated to discuss quality of literature convincingly, but I've always found Rowling better than Tolkien. No, I have not read Tolkien in english, and not all of his books either, and yes, I admit that the older a book gets, the harder it gets for me to relate to it (I think I've read too many books with poor and/or over pretentious dialogue), but... when it comes to characterisation, Rowling is *way* above Tolkien IMO. I feel like I could read any piece of dialogue, just pulled completely out of context, and know which one of Rowling's characters who said it. To me, that is really impressive actually. Every single one of her creations have individual ways of speaking. I could never tell one speaker from another when reading Tolkien. But then, what you said about "living" the HP world, I completely agree with. And honestly, that matters more to me than mastery of language. I believe that what you have to say is more important than the way you say it. I always get an image of anything Rowling writes; Tolkien honestly confused me too much with details I never needed (such as the points of the compass - too little cross-country running for me, I guess). I feel like I will either recieve a bunch of Howlers or be completely ignored with this post. :) evangelina (always overestimating her chewing abilities) From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sun Aug 10 12:49:36 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:49:36 -0000 Subject: Magic Without Wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76381 Tamara wrote: > Can wizards and witches do magic without their wands or a potion? Harry has! But I wonder if he's a special case or if everyone can? Neville did some instinctive life-saving wandless magic, but I can't remember anyone doing anything beyond childhood... like Harry performing Lumos without his wand in OotP. Anyone willing to do the research? sincerely, lazy evangelina From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 13:44:16 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 06:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Without Wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030810134416.98724.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76382 evangelina839 wrote: Tamara wrote: > Can wizards and witches do magic without their wands or a potion? lazy evangelina commented: Harry has! But I wonder if he's a special case or if everyone can? Neville did some instinctive life-saving wandless magic, but I can't remember anyone doing anything beyond childhood... like Harry performing Lumos without his wand in OotP. Anyone willing to do the research? ------------------ What about innkeeper Tom at the Three Broomsticks? He started the fire in Harry's room by snapping his fingers . . . maybe that's the WW equivalent of the "clapper" switch . . . owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 10 13:49:07 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:49:07 -0000 Subject: Harry=halfblood? In-Reply-To: <3F35EAAE.9080202@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Geoff Bannister wrote: > > > > Possibly. But in the heat of the moment, HP might have responded with > > something semantic like "Who are you calling a half-blood, you old > > hag?" or some equally suitable comment. > TRS: > And if he had done so, he would have been validating the idea > that "half-blood" is insulting. Geoff: My point being that he /didn't/. Even under the considerable stress of the moment, he avoided going into the "and you too...." often used by boys (speaking from my own long-lost experience). He in fact threw back at Bellatrix the fact that her comment was based om an untruth. Harry has never had problems acknowledging that he isn't a pureblood. From artcase at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 07:05:40 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:05:40 -0000 Subject: SHIP I believe it will be harry and Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76384 > Angela said: > > My point is > > Hermione is destined for great things, and we all know Harry is, > it > > would be a crying shame if these two didn't get together...> "tfantinel" wrote: I say: > > After OotP, I agree that Hermoine is probably not the best choice > for Ron. I might change my mind after book 6; boys often need a > year to catch up to girls, and I've sensed the possibility of them since > book 2. But I don't think she is the best romantic choice for > Harry, either. His conscience has Hermoine's voice. It's pretty hard to > fall in love with your conscience. > > I agree that she will do (and has done) awesome things. She will be > very instrumental in whatever the end of the series is. And Harry > needs her by his side. But I don't think she will be his love > interest for all the reasons Angela mentioned. She knows everything > about him, has been with him through everything; guys don't usually > fall for that girl in their lives. > > Having said all that, I'm rather open to whatever pairings JKR > wishes to show us and would be interested to see how Harry+Hermoine > would work in the context of the story. > > Be kind. This is my first post. :) I will try to be kind, however, I disagree. The H/R "ship" carries the same emotional fluctuation that Psyche and Cupid had. While it makes for great Greek tradgedy, it would in real life make for poor basis for lasting stability. It does however make for interesting prospects like Ron reacting to Hermione's attentions to Harry, (given the possibility that he finally notices her.) It opens a whole new chapter to the people deciding who the betrayer could be.... I say Ron, for a while, because he is jealous of Harry beating him once again to something Ron wants. Of course, just out of school, not one of them should be considering a LTR until LV is defeated and the future secure, but then again, there were plenty of young brides and grooms before soldiers were sent to duty in wars, so who knows? Art From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 07:14:48 2003 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:14:48 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76385 > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > > > wrote: > > > > Okay, here is what I have: > > > > > > > > > > > 1993 - (POA p184)Gryffindor hasn't been in the running for > > > Quidditch > > > > Cup for 8 years. (1993-8=1985) > > > Geoff: > > > If you are counting inclusively and counting in the start and > > finish > > > years, then 8 years would cover 1986-1993. > > > Ravenclaw Bookworm: > > If you think in terms of school years, it makes sense. Gryffindor > > won the Q-Cup in June 1985, the year Charlie graduated. In June > > 1986, '87, '88, etc, through June 1993, they did not win. > > McGonagall's statement was made in the fall of 1993 which is school > > year 1994. > > Geoff: > I think we're agreeing. June 86 to June 93 is eight Junes. One problem McGonagall stated " Or we'll be out of the running for the eighth year in a row, as Professor Snape was kind enough to remind me only last night...." Since this was said in POA and that was the year they managed to win the Q-cup I take this to mean that they only lost for seven years in a row. Karen From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 13:55:37 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:55:37 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76386 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > Okay, here is what I have: (snip a most excellent set of data) > Somewhere I remember Ginny saying she has wanted to go to Hogwarts > since Bill got his letter? But since Charlie was already in school > before HRH were born, Bill would have been in school before Ginny > was born. Possible FLINT? Who has anything else to add? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm Ginger replies: I had the same problem. The exact quote from Ginny (CoS US paperback p.323) "I've looked forward to coming to Hogwarts since B-Bill came and n-now I'll have to leave and- *w-what'll Mum and Dad say?*" Note: *=italics I had this problem before joining the group and I e-mailed the Lexicon. Steve was kind enough to e-mail me back saying that this was something that he had noticed as well, and thought that it was just an expression she had used. Unfortunately, I don't remember exactly how he put it. So as not to put words in his mouth, but not wanting to withhold credit where it is due, I'll give you my own follow-up thoughts, which may or may not be original, and you can credit the good ones to Steve ;-) Ginny was under stress. She was not in a frame of mind to sit and remember exactly how long she had wanted to go to Hogwarts. The first person in her family to go was Bill. That is the farthest back Hogwarts exists in her generation. It's more like an expression than an accurate fact. Kind of like saying "since Hector was a pup" or "since Moses was a kid" or "since Grandpa was knee-high to a grasshopper" whatever colloquialism you wish to put in to indicate that it has been a very, very long time. She may as well have said "since forever", The meaning would have been the same. I realize that this is just an opinion, but it works for me! Pax et lux, Ginger From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 10 07:30:45 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 07:30:45 -0000 Subject: Portraits in Dumbledore's Office In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > I don't think it's a matter of choice. As I see it, JKR is incorporating the > old "soul stealer" myths and postulating that whenever a portrait is taken > (painted or captured on film), a small part of that person's living essence > ("soul", if you like) is captured in the image. Since portraits last for > centuries, that portion of the person lives on, apparently able to enter any other > portrait (not necessarily their own) until the painting/photograph is destroyed. I have been wondering about the use of portraits as what appears to be a spy/communication network. DD tells Harry at the end of OoP that he kept much closer eye on him than he was aware of. Could he have used the Hogwarts portraits to that effect? Another interesting question is the role of the chocolate frog cards. When Harry is at the Black residence in Aug. his friends tell him about DD having been removed from the Wizengamot and other wizarding organizations and honors. One of the twins then quotes Dumbledore saying he does not care so long as they don't take him off the chocolate frog cards. At the time it sounds like just one of DD's humoristic comments, but what if it has a deeper meaning than that? Could it be that DD (who appears to be the only living wizard depicted on these cards) may be using them to communicate or spy? Salit From psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 08:20:52 2003 From: psychobirdgirl at yahoo.com (psychobirdgirl) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:20:52 -0000 Subject: Uncle Alphard Snape??/What about Sirius's own house ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76388 > CW writes: > > We do seem to have a lot of buildings that have mysteriously > disappeared - Sirius's house, James & Lily's house, James' parents > house...hmmmmmm Where does Dumbledore live? McGonnagal? Snape? maybe some of the others have taken over living in these houses, or do they live at the school, Does anyone think where others live might become an important issue later? psychobirdgirl, Curious Newbie From blaisezz at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 10 09:16:59 2003 From: blaisezz at yahoo.co.uk (blaisezz) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 09:16:59 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76389 (I'm still trying to catch up on posts, so forgive me if this has already been discussed!) After finishing my third re-read of OotP, I got to thinking about the mysterious Department of Mysteries. There are twelve doors off the circular room, one of which leads back to the corridor, and the other eleven (I assume) lead into other rooms. Each of these rooms seem to represent a fundamental mystery of life: 1. The room with the veil= death (even Dumbledore confirms this by calling it the death room) 2. The room with the brains= human intelligence or possibly memories as that is what the brain attacks Ron with. 3. The room with the planets= the wider Universe (?) 4. The room with the time-turners= time 5. The locked room = `a force that is at once more wonderful than and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature' love or human emotion 6. The above quote makes me think there may be a room concerned with the forces of nature 7. ? 8. ? 9. ? 10. ? 11. ? 12. The door back to the corridor So what is behind the other doors? What other fundamental mysteries are there in our world? Also, if the `weapon' wasn't the prophecy (I am not sure about this myself), then which room is it in? Another point is that the prophecies were held in a room leading off from the time room. The prophecies represent a solution to the mystery of time, telling us what will happen in the future. Ron notes in the brain room that `there are doors her too'. Do these doors also lead to an answer to the mystery the brain room contains? Is that why the love room is always kept locked, not just because it is so powerful but also because it must remain a mystery? I personally found the whole of the Department of Mysteries thing very interesting, and am sure that it may prove key to the rest of Harry's story. Anyway there are my thoughts, how about you? Ria From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 10 14:19:49 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:19:49 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76390 I feel that the answer is not whether a book is great literature but what its effect on you is. I first read Tolkien in 1955, a year after the last volume was opublished and it grabbed me straight away. For many years I read it annually and have now done so at least 25-30 times. Nowadays I don't go to it so regularly because of other JRRT stuff which has been published posthumously. One of the things which has always amused my family has been my predilection for children's literature. I first read Winnie-the-Pooh when I was 25(!) but have always argued that it operates on two levels, there being a more subtle humour which can only be appreciated by an adult. Other books have crossed my path - the Narnia series by C S Lewis and, a couple which I have always enjoyed thoroughly, Alan Garner's "The Weirdstone of Brisingamen" and its sequel "The Moon of Gomrath" which have a lot to do with magic. For a while I allowed myself to be swayed by members of my church who said that HP was bad and taught children all the wrong things. I finally met up with Harry last November when my wife and I and a friend with whom we were staying found ourselves at a loose end and went to the cinema in Barry (near Cardiff for non-UK readers) and saw COS. Very soon after, I watched PS on Sky Box Office and was greatly impressed to the end that I bought the then four books in short order and read them. I am now going through these four for the fifth time (now entering GOF) and have read OOTP three times. To berealistic, there is a gulf between JRRT and JKR partly because of the style and perhaps the depth of the stories. Tolkien is a master wordsmith and was basing the epic on a baseload of "myth" which he had been amassing for 40 years (at the time when LOTR first appeared). His writing is very detailed and his word pictures conjure up incredibly vivd pictures in my mind. LOTR however was not a children's book on publication although it initially grew out of a childern's book. I have gained more enjoyment out of the Potter books than any other juvenile fiction I have read. I think the way in which the books grow darker and tackle deeper problems (such as gratuitous killing in GOF) is a tribute to the writer's skill. If we are seeing it from Hary's POV, PS shows us a naive, gauche boy taking rentative steps into a strange, exciting and unsettling new world. We see him growing in confidence (sometimes unfounded!) and experience and the latest books are now tackling themes which would not be out of place in fiction written specifically for adults. Frankly, I would rather read something like the books I have mentioned or watch things like Star Trek than get involved in themes which mirror real life - family rows, affairs, terrorist violence etc. Escapist maybe, but the volume of traffic on this site shows that many of us can not only enjoy this material but let our own imaginations speculate how we might write the next book or how we would the characters to develop; we may disagree politely with each other over who is going to betray whom whether Petunia is a closet witch but it is all very stimulating stuff whether there are split infinitives or not. I can handle Tolkien and Rowling and enjoy them both absolutely without comparing which of the two worlds are better defined or described. OK, now tell me I'm a long winded rambler who ought to know better.... Geoff From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Aug 10 14:42:53 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:42:53 -0000 Subject: Dark Mark question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lisanicr" wrote: > I couldn't find this referenced anywhere but... > I'm re-reading GoF and in the scene where Karkaroff shows Snape that > his Dark Mark is getting clearer...does that mean that the mark is > normally, or relatively invisible when circumstances dictate? I mean, > when LV is not around, does the mark disappear completely? Perhaps > that's why it was such a job identifying true DE's after the downfall > of LV? > Thanks! > Lisa I have always read this to mean that after the fall of Voldemort the Dark Mark faded from the forearm of each of the DE either immediately or perhaps over time. Once Pettigrew found him and started getting him ready for his resurgence, the mark started showing up on the arms of the DE. So for the time immediately after LV's fall and up to that point the Dark Mark would indeed have been a surefire method for Aurors to ID suspected Death Eaters. June From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 10 15:02:17 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 10 Aug 2003 15:02:17 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1060527737.22.20732.m14@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76392 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, August 10, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 15:11:49 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:11:49 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Kim I'm beginning to get a bit concerned about the enormous amount > of food consumed by everyone at Hogswarts. Hardly a healthy diet, > even for growing teens. Also, apart from lessons, theredoesn't seem > to be any supervision by adults. Students go to bed just when they > think they will, sometimes not until the early hours. How sad am I to > be worrying about fictional characters putting on weight or not > getting enough sleep! bboy_mn: The entrance to Gryffindor tower is on the seventh floor, and being in a castle these are TALL floors, not the 8ft. to 10ft. ceilings you find in most building. And, Harry's dorm room is several flights of stairs above that at the TOP of the Gryffindor tower. These kids climb up and down these stairs several times a day, plus up and down the sloping lawns; I think the get a fair amount of excersize. True they arent' supervised by adults at night, but they do have 6 prefects and fifth years have to be in the dorm tower by 9pm. Persumably, younger students need to be in earlier. So, it's not like they are running wild. As far as bed time, I think it is a good lesson in responsibility. True they let you go to sleep when you want to, but if you oversleep, it mean no breakfast and detention. Both very good incentives to make it up on time. just a thought. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 10 15:30:56 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:30:56 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Dear Grownups...(edit) > > Though it takes on the ideas of racism, parental fallibility, > burgeoning sexuality, and a dozen other dark parts of adult life - > IMO it fails to scratch beneath the surface of these ideas and > explore what they mean. Instead Rowling uses them more as mere plot > devices. For example...I never get the feeling Hermione suffers in > her quest to help the elves (as abolistionists did in the 18th and > 19th centuries) nor does she suffer for being the victim or racism > > So while the themes may be good, I FEEL (and I know this is a > personal opinion) Rowling has provided little in the way of insight > into these themes or the human experience. Harry neither appears > traumatised nor truely in pain to me. I want to see it the way you > do; try and convince me. I'd love to change my mind. His suffering > seems nothing more than that of a bratty teen. And while we may > remember being that way (I do), I can't say I felt I learned anything > about what it means to be a teenager. > > Do books have to do all this? Well IMO good books do! That is what > it means to be a good book. Otherwise why read? Reading is meant to > to add to our stock of experience by entertaining us. Even light > parody does this by teaching us to challange what we know and read. > Is OOTP just brain candy or is it literature? It can't be both. This > of course doesn't mean literature (and OOTP, if it is litertature) > can't be fun too. (though I didn't find OOTP to be so). I don't > subscribe to the school that say "no pain no gain". But I enjoy the > classics and many of the newer books I read. Some I like more than > others but I think overall I rarely read bad novels. And I like > children's books so that is not it... > > I will say I like things about OOTP (since I have irked people who > feel the need to hear the positive...). I think Rowling has talent - > no question. Whoever said Snape is great because he has a rough > interior to go with that gruff exterior was right... He is great. So > is Arthur Weasley. Sweet, good, a little eccentric. But > uncomplicatedly decent (in the best way of course). > So I want to know what you would say to me. Please leave ad hominum > arguments at home. I am well aware I could never write HP. But it > isn't my job to create HP. I am a reader and feel I have full right > to judge work I could never attempt to write. Afterall I paid for > OOTP. I deserve a good novel - the best one Rowling can write IMO. > > And I would like to know if Potter is the only children's lit you are > reading. Or what books you loved as kids. And of course why... > > Thanks for all those who answer, > Golly I will defend to the death, (your death, naturally, I'm not *that* stupid) your right to dislike any book in the world. I may be wrong, but my impression is that your are unhappy or at least disappointed, because OoP does not explore themes that engage you. Fine. But no claim has been made that these themes are the raison d'etre for the book(s). After all, no-one complains that Peter Pan glosses over adolescence, or that Dickens ignores slavery. Yes, I do believe that, for the most part, the themes you mention are plot devices, with just a little morality added to make clear JKRs' view- point. I accept these as background material and context for what is an escapist adventure/fantasy. But they are not what the books are about, any more than War and Peace was about Napoleon. Yes, younger readers are the target audience, and nothing puts them off faster than being preached or lectured at. Keep it low key, that way they can come to discussions about the themes in their own time. You mention abolitionists and the like; are they relevant? There was a posting a few weeks back where House Elves were equated to the old Scottish myth of Brownies, which would put their situation in a very different light and would mean Hermione has got it totally wrong. That we won't find out till later, it is a work in progress, remember. When the concept of "Literature" is raised, so are my hackles. First, define literature. Then decide who has the authority to rule on the worth of a piece of work, remembering to take into account changing tastes over time. Then find two people who agree with you. It'll never happen. There are too many cliques who make arbitary declarations (usually self-serving) on what is essentially a subjective judgement. It is probably significant that much of what is regarded as literature is either not in the modern idiom, is dense, not originally written in English, 'experimental' (whatever that means), or puffed by fellow members of the same circle. It's a subtle form of snobbery - " I have the time and leisure to consider such books, Such a pity you don't." >From the Epic of Gilgamesh, through Beowolf, Chaucer, Swift, Austen, Dickens, the Russians, Lawrence, Proust and Joyce down to Rushdie, I've read 'em - and been impressed by only a small fraction. (Ten years in the middle of Saudi with no other entertainment.) Whenever a book has been recommended to me as 'imparting a message', I sigh. Usually it means a combination of (pick any adjective that suits), hackneyed, trite, polemical, artificial, super- ficial, partisan, patronising or a left wing rant. A prime example, The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists. A worthy theme, but my word, relentless, never-ending Nobility of the Working Class does irritate in very short order. Leave messages to the Post Office, that's their business. A writers is to entertain, to engage. If they don't do that, they've failed. The Harry Potter series does that; it has, by the only criterium that is objective, been a resounding success. Hence HPfGU. If you personally are left cold, I'm sorry. Maybe you've lost your sense of wonder. Kneasy who raves about Marcus Aurelius, John Donne, Kipling (his Kim is the best childrens book I've read), Arnold Bennett, Dickens, H.L.Mencken, Edmund Burke, David Weber and JKR. So there! From lizcrosssmith at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 15:40:21 2003 From: lizcrosssmith at yahoo.com (Liz) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:40:21 -0000 Subject: Magic Without Wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamara" wrote: > Can wizards and witches do magic without their wands or a potion? > > Tamara Clearly wizards and witches can do magic without wands. Before they get wands -- in childhood -- they seem to spontaneously exhibit magical "reactions" to situations that are stressful or emotional. Hence the lifesaving magic, etc. that we have read about. I had originally considered wands to be a tool that allows the witch or wizard to "fine tune" or focus his or her magic. That would mean that a wizard is capable of less precise, or less directed, or less powerful magic without the wand. That would imply, however, that intent and a certain amount of concentration would be necessary to cast spells. However, there are a couple things that seem to blow my theory. In OoTP we at least hear Moody refer to the possibility of accidentally blowing ones buttocks off. I can't imagine intent and concentration on magic if you've got your wand in your back pocket. Secondly, back in first year (Chapter 10 of SS/PS) Flitwick says, "And saying the magic words is properly is very important, too -- never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest." So, all that leaves me wondering what exactly is magic -- it appears to be a power or energy the witch or wizard can summon and direct at will, but it's a bit more tricky than that. If you've got to get the wand movements -- "swish and flick" -- just right and you've got to get the words just right -- "Wing-gar-dium Levi-o-sa, make the 'gar' nice and long." -- then how do wizards invent/discover new spells? Do you just say nonsense words and wave your wand around an hope something happens? Is that what happened to Luna's mom? I guess my question is: "What is the nature of magic?" Liz From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sun Aug 10 15:54:32 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:54:32 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! (long) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76396 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Dear Grownups... > >> > I have consistently felt that while I like Harry Potter's universe, > OOTP is not a great or even good novel. (massive snip)> > Thanks for all those who answer, > Golly Reply from CW: I have to say I agree with you Golly, but not quite on the grounds set out in your post. In my view, OotP is a self-indulgent novel, poorly structured, with relatively little dramatic interest apart from the end scenes/death of Sirius etc (sob). There was an amusing post some weeks back bemoaning its lack of bang-content, and this sums up the problem very neatly. Its got lots of lovely detail, new characters, and back-plot for us HPnutters to pick over, and I doubt if anyone would go as far as saying they wish it had not been published, but, IMO, its not of the same quality as the previous four books. One reason for this is that the earlier books each had a fairly pacy story to tell in their own right, in addition to moving the larger story along. Even the lengthy GoF had three separate triwizard events to maintain the reader's interest (I'll leave aside the apparent pointlessness of the Portkey plot device..grrr.. as its already been heavily discussed). The end scenes in GoF were very moving and left us panting desperately for HP5. OotP, by contrast, just sprawls along. Various upsetting things happen, of course, and there is no way that I won't be waiting anxiously for HP6, but the feeling of constant tension and drama were very definitely missing this time for me (until the very end). I just found it very miserable mostly.. Perhaps the desperate anticipation for the book contributed to a greater chance of feeling let down, but most adults I have spoken to in the UK feel the same way. I have seen that the kids love it, though, so perhaps the teen angst plays differently to different age groups. (However, on that point, don't get me wrong, I don't think it was inappropriate for JKR to write Harry this way in this book: it is spot on for his age and in response to the things which are happening to him; my argument is more about the larger plot framework this time.) I have read a good many of the interviews with JKR about why there was such a gap between the books, and how burnt out she felt at the end of GoF etc, and how she needed the time out to regroup. Also, some quite nice things have happened for her in those years, husband, baby etc. It seems to me the combined effect of all this, is that she has written OotP in a much more relaxed and confident frame of mind, but sadly, to my mind, it has affected the drive, the urgency of what she's putting on to paper. Question: do writers have to be miserable to create great books ? Discuss. I also agree with other posters who have commented that her editors probably don't dare to criticise anything by now. JKR did say in one interview that no one saw the book apart from her and her typist before it was released to the publishers, and I really think that shows, and is a mistake. I don't mind length, relish it in fact, but it did get tedious and repetitive in places. To my mind, this book could not stand alone in the same way as all the others can, and I think that's partly happened because the books have become so popular, and the pressure was so great to release something, even if it wasn't ready. You could argue, I suppose, that that's alright at this stage in the series, or alternatively, she deserves a break, and no writer can be expected to maintain top performance constantly. However, it does mean that this one is a long way from aspiring to great literature, despite various funny, or quite moving passages. History will be the eventual judge, I suppose. On your other points, about whether she can deal with great themes satisfactorily, I wonder too. She has created such a very unique world up to now, that I was beginning to have hopes, but the (inevitable) continuing focus from HP's point of view made it harder to develop such ideas in OotP. For me, the book came across as a children's (well, teenager's) book far more than the previous four because of the lack of in-depth adult takes on the darkening WW. A lot will depends on how she handles the increasingly-grown up perceptions of the main characters in books 6&7. I thought PoA was perfection from the point of view of plot, pace, depth etc, I just hope she can get back to that form in HP6. Sorry, a very long post, but I am glad you raised this question, because it was the issue which made me join HPfGU. I was so upset with OotP, I had to discuss it with someone, and amazingly, found 10000 intelligent and thoughtful people right there on the Internet! If only Harry had a modem, those summers at Privet Drive might be a bit more bearable ! CW From sdpinoy2003 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 12:50:23 2003 From: sdpinoy2003 at yahoo.com (Ephrem B) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 05:50:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Magic Without Wands? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030810125023.20857.qmail@web40002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76398 Tamara wrote: Can wizards and witches do magic without their wands or a potion? ***** Yes they can. In POA, Lupin woke up when the Dementors stopped the train and lit the room with balls of blue flame on his hands or fingertips. I don't remember which. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Aug 10 13:20:21 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:20:21 -0000 Subject: Slytherin - Grindelwald - Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76399 --- "Wanda Sherratt" wrote(editted): > I've been thinking that there must be some Voldemort-Grindelwald connection. It's a good idea. The date of Grindelwald's downfall is one of the very few dates given in the books - 1945. When something unusual like that comes up, I have the feeling that we're meant to notice it. I think that would have been right after Tom Riddle left Hogwarts, so I was thinking it was possible that he left school and immediately sought out Grindelwald. There would have been time for them to meet before Dumbledore destroyed G. AFter that, I'm not sure. Maybe Riddle became a disciple of Grindelwald, and learned from him, so that he was able to carry on after Grindelwald fell. Or maybe Grindelwald's fall left a power vacuum on the Dark side, which Voldemort was able to exploit and take over. I just don't think it can be accidental that Tom Riddle headed for eastern Europe at about the time a very evil German wizard was around, and the two didn't intersect somehow. > Voldemort was defeated, but not destroyed at the time of Harry's attack. Grindelwald was defeated by Dumbledore, but it didn't say that he was killed (Ref: the back of the Wizard cards in 1st book.) ~and~ Salazar Slytherin left Hogwarts, but his death was never reported. There are ways and means for a wizard to stay alive over centuries. Flammel used the Philosophers (or Sorcerer's in US) Stone to live close to 700 years old. Who is to say that Salazar Slytherin himself doesn't possess promising students on the Dark side to maintain his quest? aussie From Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 14:42:57 2003 From: Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:42:57 -0000 Subject: Stubby Boardman is Regulus Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76400 > > I noticed that Regulus Black, Sirius' kid brother > and murdered > > DE, had a date of death "fifteen years previously" > (p.112). And > > Stubby Boardman "retired from public life after > being struck in > > the ear by a turnip...nearly fifteen years ago" > (p192). > > acoteucla wrote: Good catch! I don't know if it's been discussed > before, but I > personally like this theory. Buttercup: Possibly...that's why his candle light dinner date thought Stubby was Sirius. They're brothers and they look alike. If Stubby isn't Regulus, I still think he'll come into play in one or both of the last two books. Why else would Sirius have mentioned him to Harry? Harry will probably meet Regulus, who may look like Sirius, and get all excited thinking it's his godfather, only to be disappointed again. Me again: Yes! I think so too. On further musing, I think Regulus was ALWAYS Stubby Boardman, because all he wanted was to be a rock'n'roll star. Mama Black would NOT have approved, so he hid it from his family, and joined the DE to please his impossible Mom. He was aboutu as good a rock singer as he was a DE, though, if the turnip thrown at him is any indication. But, like Sirius, he's drop dead handsome (ahem), so he has lots of candlelight dinners with lots of addled fans. If he shows up in Books 6/7, I think he will be a kind of comic relief -- an anti-Serius--or unserious--kind of character: the ne'er do well kid brother. He will, however, look a lot like Sirius anyway...giving Harry some turns. Harry may even feel some responsibility for Reg, and this may help pull him out of his funk. Also, it would be interesting to see how Crookshanks, who adored Sirius, reacts to Reg. Will he stare at him insolently, with a half-eaten garden snake protruding from his mouth? Oh, what fun. Marmelade Mom From angelic146 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 15:33:45 2003 From: angelic146 at hotmail.com (angelic146uk) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:33:45 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76401 I think Charlie is only a five years older then the twins, because of what Ron said OOTP. "When Charlie, Fred and George were training in the holidays they made me keep for them." So that means that Charlie was at Hogwarts when the twins were and played with them. We all know that you can't play in the Quidditch team until your in the second year so that means that Charlie is only five years older. So I figured out that the last time Gryffindor would have won the cup would have been in 1985, in Charlie's second year. It makes sense with what McGonagall said in POA that they would be out of the running for the eighth year. Also Bill saying in GOF that he was at Hogwarts five years ago shows us that his last year was in 1989, so he's only a year younger then Charlie. I'm probably way off but.......... From Pottymouth65 at aol.com Sun Aug 10 15:40:56 2003 From: Pottymouth65 at aol.com (Pottymouth65 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:40:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Portraits in Dumbledore's Office Message-ID: <192.1e503ab0.2c67c188@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76402 In a message dated 8/9/2003 11:29:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, kfc4588 at yahoo.com writes: > So, this leads me to wondering - say IF Sirius had a portrait made > of himself > >perhaps years ago, would this portrait be "enchanted" as well? > Would that > >old portrait be able to communicate to Harry and the living? I > know of no > >portrait of Sirius being mentioned, so this is just an "IF" > question. > > > >~Traci > > > > I have a quick question- > now i cried for days on end when Sirius died, but what I don't > understand is why we are all making theories and devising plans to > get Sirius to communicate with Harry again, when we could have been > doing this for Harry and James this whole time, I mean if there were > ways would he rather speak to James or Sirius..and why wouldn't he > have done it before, like when he needed a parent? I don't know.. it > just always confused me how it was never a big deal that James was > dead (to Harry- not to us because we got to know and love Sirius in a > way we never got to with James) but now he (and we) will do ANYTHING > to try and get Sirius back.. i dont know if im making any sense ehre > but its just a thought > -casey- > Traci again- The only reason I used Sirius as an example and not James or Lily (or any other family member from the Potter or Evans' clan) is because of how bittersweet the end result was. I guess my question should've included James and/or Lily too. Still, the question in my mind remains. Would a portrait made of Sirius, James or Lily (or anybody for that matter) still be able to hold that person's "essence" and communicate to the living even if it had been painted years before their death? Furthermore, if so, say a portrait was made of someone when they were a child, would the essence of the child speak to the living instead of the adult as we know them from the books? I'd like to hear other's thoughts on this. If this has been posted previously, please forgive me. ~Traci [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pjcousins at btinternet.com Sun Aug 10 16:03:22 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:03:22 -0000 Subject: Tactics & Prescience (was Why Bella didn't disapparate/ OOP Az. effects) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76403 Hello. First post from an oldie. post 76335 and others have been speculating whether DD and Lupin killed Sirius, or even whether Sirius volunteered to die. What if the three of them took advantage of LV's plot of using Harry's love for Sirius to lure H to MoM to stage Sirius' disappearance/death? With Sirius dead, neither Fudge nor LV would be concerned about Sirius anymore, and Sirius would have more freedom (maybe in disguise). Sirius "died" at the veil. What if Moody's missing Invisibility Cloak was suspended in front of the veil, could Sirius then disappear as if passing through the veil? I think DD and Lupin were nearest to Sirius at the time and Lupin prevents Harry from approaching the veil after Sirius disappears. After Sirius' death the adults did not act upset to any great extent. comments? From julwalker7614726 at aol.com Sun Aug 10 16:07:41 2003 From: julwalker7614726 at aol.com (ejom723) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:07:41 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Pictures Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76404 It seems that alot of people are hoping that Sirius will have had a painting somewhere for Harry. Just a question, but what about all the pictures of Sirius that Kinsley Shackelford has in his office? I'm sure he'd give one to Harry considering the nature of how they know one another in TOoP. --Jules, still wishing for some of Molly's "householdy" spells. From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 17:05:42 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:05:42 -0000 Subject: Slytherin - Grindelwald - Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > --- "Wanda Sherratt" wrote(editted): > > I've been thinking that there must be some Voldemort-Grindelwald > connection. It's a good idea. The date of Grindelwald's downfall is > one of the very few dates given in the books - 1945. When something > unusual like that comes up, I have the feeling that we're meant to > notice it. I think that would have been right after Tom Riddle left > Hogwarts, so I was thinking it was possible that he left school and > immediately sought out Grindelwald. There would have been time for > them to meet before Dumbledore destroyed G. AFter that, I'm not > sure. Maybe Riddle became a disciple of Grindelwald, and learned > from him, so that he was able to carry on after Grindelwald fell. Or > maybe Grindelwald's fall left a power vacuum on the Dark side, which > Voldemort was able to exploit and take over. I just don't think it > can be accidental that Tom Riddle headed for eastern Europe at about > the time a very evil German wizard was around, and the two didn't > intersect somehow. > > > > Voldemort was defeated, but not destroyed at the time of Harry's > attack. > Grindelwald was defeated by Dumbledore, but it didn't say that he was > killed (Ref: the back of the Wizard cards in 1st book.) > ~and~ > Salazar Slytherin left Hogwarts, but his death was never reported. > > There are ways and means for a wizard to stay alive over centuries. > Flammel used the Philosophers (or Sorcerer's in US) Stone to live > close to 700 years old. Who is to say that Salazar Slytherin himself > doesn't possess promising students on the Dark side to maintain his > quest? > > aussie THere has been a lot of speculation on this theroy. There is one (I'll try and find it and email it to you) that is pretty incredible with its evidence to making the point. Suffice to say, there are a lot of us that think this may be the direction that Rowling is heading this. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Aug 10 17:11:23 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:11:23 EDT Subject: Portraits & Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76406 In a message dated 8/10/2003 1:01:24 PM Eastern Standard Time, Pottymouth65 at aol.com writes: > Furthermore, if so, say a portrait was made of someone > when they were a child, would the essence of the child speak to the living > instead of the adult as we know them from the books? I'd like to hear > other's > thoughts on this. If this has been posted previously, please forgive me. I think that it would be the child speaking. The portrait can only know what was known at the time of painting, unless they have been communicating with the actual person. So, PortraitofYoung!Sirius wouldn't know the same things that Real!Sirius knew. He would only know what happened to Real!Sirius unless Real!Sirius told him. Even if the PortraitofYoung!Sirius knew everything that happened to Real!Sirius, the child would not have the same thought pattern, ideas, and beliefs. People change so much in their lifetimes. I don't think anything like the way I did when I was young (well...*younger* I guess is the correct word...). As for their being a portrait of Sirius for Harry to converse with - I hope not. Death is final, even in the Potterverse. IMHO Sirius didn't have enough time in his free life to plan to have a painting done. In the Black family, only Mrs. Black apparently has a portrait. I just don't think Sirius had the time - or the foresight - to have one done. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ --Wow...did anyone else know that tubas were heavy? Why didn't I stick with the damn flute... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 17:14:24 2003 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind In-Reply-To: <1060532466.4746.80218.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030810171424.47843.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76407 Message: 3 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 08:32:10 -0000 From: "subrosax99" Subject: Re: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Dear Grownups... > I have consistently felt that while I like Harry Potter's universe, > OOTP is not a great or even good novel. (Trust me when I say I didn't > want to think this.) It is (in my opinion) dully written and filled > with hackneyed phrases. This hampers my ability to see beyond its > surface. > But I enjoy the classics and many of the newer books I read. Some I like more than > others but I think overall I rarely read bad novels. And I like > children's books so that is not it... Michael Bedard's stunning > Redwork is one of my favourite novels. No: HPFGUIDX 76408 You may be more familiar with this song... My Brother Gawp (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _I Am A Rock_ by Simon and Garfunkel) Midi is here (three to choose from, heh...The first one I like the best): http://sglyrics.myrmid.com/contents.html Windows audio clip here: http://www.buy.com/retail/product.asp?sku=60365649&loc=&rp=true OoP Chapter 30 Hagrid (to Harry and Hermione): A Quidditch game I want to tell you something I need your help Far away from Umbridge we'll be safe to talk The Forbidden Forest's where we want to walk His name is Gawp He is a giant Found him there In mountains high and rocky Where giants congregate Our mother didn't like him, he was kinda small Been kicked around and bullied by them all My brother Gawp He is a giant I brought him back And that's why I took so long Kept trying to return, see? He didn't want to come here, but I had to decide If I left him there I'm sure he would have died My brother Gawp He is a giant Been teaching him But he doesn't know his own strength This has disturbed all the centaurs Firenze is wrong, here's where he belongs Abandon him and I abandon me My brother Gawp He is a giant If they send me away Will you make sure he's alright? -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 17:31:09 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:31:09 -0000 Subject: Rise of the next Dark Lord? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76409 Seeing how evil in the Harry Potter Universe doesn't seem to take a break first with Grindelwald who is followed later by Voldemort does anyone think that after the fall of Voldemort at the hands of our heroes that someone else perhaps Draco Malfoy will just come and replace Riddle as the next big bad? From gromm at cards.lanck.net Fri Aug 8 08:56:24 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 12:56:24 +0400 Subject: ??: [HPforGrownups] Re: Regulus Black: did someone notice? References: Message-ID: <000201c35f67$a01f9380$2342983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 76410 > <<>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > So does 'basilisk', if I remember correctly from Greek class in > college a million years ago. Maria here: Regulus is actually the Latin word for basilisk, translation from the Greek. BTW, I named a person from the Malfoy family Regulus in my fanfic, based on this last meaning, and it was before I read OotP! Maria. From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Sun Aug 10 17:48:24 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:48:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Rise of the next Dark Lord? Message-ID: <128.2f7dfabb.2c67df68@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76411 In a message dated 8/10/2003 1:31:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, greatelderone at yahoo.com writes: > Seeing how evil in the Harry Potter Universe doesn't seem to take a > break first with Grindelwald who is followed later by Voldemort does > anyone think that after the fall of Voldemort at the hands of our > heroes that someone else perhaps Draco Malfoy will just come and > replace Riddle as the next big bad? There will definitely be another Dark Lord, because without evil there can be no good. I actually am a fan of DarkQueen!Hermione. I'm sure someone has mentioned this somewhere along the line, but I don't remember at this time. It won't be on purpose really...unlike Tom Riddle, Hermione won't start out trying to rule the world. She'll start by freeing all the House Elves. Then she'll find another group (werewolves perhaps?) that don't have right and she'll work for their freedom (which is a good thing! Yea Remus!). She'll keep trying to make everything equal by lowering the rights of other people. Think "Harrison Bergeron". She'll be gaining power along the way, cheered on by people who think she's going great deeds by making everyone equal. When Hermione thinks she's right, she won't let anyone dissuade her (SPEW anyone?) Eventually, she'll end up basically ruling the world by forcing people to believe the same things she believes, using her moral code to guide everyone else. People like Draco and the other Slytherins won't exist anymore. Lord Volemort's dream will have come true. "...no good, no evil only power". It could happen right? Either that, or band camp is taking it's toll on me. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ "Who's drinking the popcorn now, bitch?" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 17:48:31 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:48:31 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelic146uk" wrote: > I think Charlie is only a five years older then the . . .So I figured out that the last time Gryffindor would have won the cup would have been in 1985, in Charlie's second year. . . . Also Bill saying in GOF that he was at Hogwarts five years ago shows us that his last year was in 1989, so he's only a year younger then Charlie. > I'm probably way off but.......... > There are two big problems with that theory. 1} We know Bill is older than Charlie. 2) hy would they talk about not winning the Quiddichtch cup since Charlie left if the last time they won was his second year? They only year he would have played. I'n not asure one Cup could have gained him such a reputation. bibphile From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 10 18:15:45 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:15:45 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Food in wizarding world References: <1060460649.115703.3697.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <000f01c35f6b$6b4db520$de516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 76413 Kim: > This is an insignificant point, but one that has been nibbling away > in my mind since my first reading of the first book. I wonder about > how wizards procure their food. Do they have grocery stores or > markets? We don't hear about any markets in Diagon Alley (that I can Travelling over long distances doesn't seem to be a problem for the denizens of the WW so my mental picture is of them having some sort of farmers' markets to which the local wizards apparate, floo, fly, come on the bus, or whatever to pick up their groceries. More exotic things - well, there has to be some sort of import/export trade going on, not only for foodstuffs but also for more esoteric things like magical ingredients and the like. Possibly those sorts of things _are_ sold in Diagon Alley. The cultural ignorance that most wizards have of the muggle world leads me to think that those who don't have a foot in both camps (through parentage or marriage) would be totally lost if they tried popping down to Tescos! > adding another potato to the soup. I don't remember there being any > livestock at the Burrow, from the canon descriptions. How do they > put such copious amounts of food on the table? They have chickens. They also have a large garden and a paddock walking distance away - so maybe they produce quite a lot of their own food. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sun Aug 10 18:16:43 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:16:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If you are prepared, Severus- Question answered? Message-ID: <410-220038010181643712@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76414 ~Carina wrote: "Well, in OoP, Dolores Umbridge says to Snape, "I expected better, Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you!" It would seem Snape is still in good graces with Voldemort, or else why would Lucius, a Death-Eater have a good opinion of him? I find it rather strange though. Snape didn't apparate to the graveyard at the end of GoF, when Voldemort summoned his followers, and so Voldemort should have been displeased, was displeased, in fact. (quote: "One, too cowardly to return ... he will pay. One, who I believe has left me forever ... he will be killed, of course ...")" Now me (Wendy): I don't find Snape's absence in the graveyard to be problematic at all for Voldemort. As you pointed out, in the graveyard, Voldemort says he "believed" that Snape had left him for good - which means there was some doubt in Voldemort's mind. I assume that when Snape goes off later that evening (after the "If you are prepared" scene), Snape goes to Lucius Malfoy (or perhaps to Voldemort himself, but I think it's more likely he went to Malfoy), and explains that he knew he was being summoned, but he couldn't leave Hogwarts at that time, partly because you can't just apparate out of Hogwarts (it would have taken Snape a bit of time to get off school grounds and such), but more importantly, Snape couldn't leave because he was being watched by Dumbledore. Snape is useful to Voldemort because of his relationship and proximity to Dumbledore, so I'm sure Voldemort would accept this excuse. Even as a "faithful" Death Eater, Snape must appear to be loyal to Dumbledore if he's to have any usefullness as a spy. However, I don't think that Voldemort gave Snape a hug and made him a cup of tea upon his return . . . I assume that our man Snape has suffered tortures for his past betrayal of Voldemort, and I also would not be surprised to find that Voldemort will expect him to do something tangible to prove his loyalty. (Not sure what that would be, or if it is perhaps something that's already happened off-screen that we'll find out about later. Or never. ). I also think it's possible that Voldemort doesn't trust Snape at all, but it willing to pretend he does because as someone pointed out recently (Pippin, I think), it is still useful to have a blown spy who doesn't know he's blown in place, in order to pass mis-information to Dumbledore if nothing else. So, whether or not Snape is actually in Voldemort's "good graces," I don't think it's unreasonable at all that Snape could have returned to Voldemort and *not* been killed on sight. Voldemort has lots of reasons to keep Snape alive, and since he now also has a perfectly good excuse to torture the guy pretty much whenever he wants (you've been naughty, Severus - CRUCIO!), well, that's just icing on Voldemort's cake, I'd say. I do think it's very likely that Snape has the most dangerous, unpleasant and painful job in all of the wizarding world at this time. No wonder he's a bit stroppy now and again. ;-) Cheers! Wendy From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sun Aug 10 18:22:19 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:22:19 -0000 Subject: What about Sirius's own house ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76415 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" > wrote: > > Okay, I'm sure I'm way off base, but, what the hell... > > > > Sirius tells us that his Uncle Alphard left him a "good bit of > gold," > > which enabled him to get his own place once he was seventeen. > > > (snip) > Marianne > > CW writes: > > I've always wondered what happened to the place that Sirius bought > when he was 17. Its the place Harry immediately imagines staying at > when he leaves the Shrieking Shack with Sirius. Was it confiscated by > the Ministry after he was sent to Azkaban ? Have his friends (? Lupin? > Dumbledore) been looking after it/living in it ? If it still it > exists, it would surely have been mentioned as one of the key places > to watch after Sirius escaped. > SNIP I assumed that a 17 year old would get his first 'own place' as a flat or apartment. As for what Sirius meant when he offered Harry to live with him at his house that' isn't much'--now THAT I expect may have been Grimmauld Place. Sirius was likley able to find out his mother had died and that the house was vancat and that may have been suitable with some work for him and Harry to live in. Arya From butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net Sun Aug 10 18:32:00 2003 From: butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net (Wiley Willowsbough) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:32:00 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76416 *sigh* I have to side with the people who feel criticizing the series is a bit pretentious. For cripe's sake, people...this is young adult literature, not Joyce or Tolkein or Hemmingway. I don't ever expect Rowling to be brought up in a university literature course. But as a teacher of pre-teens, I have seen the true "garbage" that has come in and out of vogue over the years that these kids have eaten up as "literature"...the Goosebumps series, the Animorphs series, the Mary-Kate and Ashley series. All disposable reading, not much better than reading a comic book. And the repetition you find in some of these series is ridiculous, as they set up the plotlines exactly the same way in each book (Animorphs the biggest culprit). Yes, we're adults, and we see things in an adult way. Sometimes, as I lurk, I question how much we have dissected this canon, and the arguments (and some quite passionate) that take place over it. But agreed...who would collectively argue and dissect and cherish a true piece of adult literature like this, except those who truly read and enjoy 700 page novels written for adults. For many of these kids (and I would guess quite a high number of adults), this is a first foray into metaphors and "flowerly language". If it were written at a level of Joyce or Hemmingway, no one would have ever read it. But, darn it, it is good literature for what is young adult literature, and young adults and kids read it. It's deep and meaningful, full of characters and concepts and settings beyong what most people have read. Furthermore, most people who have read it once, have read it again, and find subsequent readings often more rewarding than the first-read. I don't want to sound like I'm admonishing anyone, but I think if we're going to start nitpicking beyond flints and such, and people are going to be posting saying this book series so many of us have loved is literary garbage, then perhaps some people should start up a seperate group. Wiley From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 10 18:39:43 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:39:43 +0100 Subject: Re-reading Message-ID: <001e01c35f6e$c452ae20$de516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 76417 I re-read PS/SS this weekend and picked up on a couple of points which hadn't stuck in my mind before - wondered what others thought about them? 1. Snape's worst memory Chapter 16. It's a sunny day, and the exams are over. HRH go looking for Dumbledore and don't find him. Snape appears "Good afternoon", he said smoothly They stared at him. "You shouldn't be inside on a day like this" he said, with an odd, twisted smile. "We were-" Harry began, without any idea what he was going to say. "You want to be more careful", said Snape. "Hanging around like this... Especially from the odd, twisted smile, I wonder if Severus was thinking about another sunny day after the end of an exam? 2. Dead Weasleys Chapter 12. It snows "The lake froze solid and the Weasley twins were punished for bewitching several snowballs so that they followed Quirrell around, bouncing off the back of his turban" Ouch. Voldemort's reaction to being snowballed isn't recorded, but I suspect he wasn't unduly happy about it. Does he hold grudges? If so, Greg and Forge had better look out, especially now they're out in the big wide world on their own... 3. Big Hogwarts? Big Hufflepuff? Chapter 7. The sorting process. Of the students whose house is given here, 3 are listed for Hufflepuff (Abbott, Bones, Finch-Fletchley), 3 for Ravenclaw (Boot, Brocklehurst, Turpin), 3 for Slytherin (Bulstrode, Malfoy, Zabini), and 6 for Gryffindor (Brown, Finnegan, Granger, Longbottom, Potter, Weasley). It's not conclusive, but it sounds as if JKR is trying to emphasise that the houses are roughly equal (though the Gryffs are highlighted because that's where Our Heroes end up, of course). If there were 3 smaller houses and Big Hufflepuff, then I think the numbers would have been different (maybe even to the extent that Harry would have asked why so many students got sorted into that house) :Later in the same chapter "Percy directed the girls through one dooe to their dormitory and the boys through another" The singular is used in both cases. Unless there is a case for saying that there is more than one Gryffindor common room (unlikely I'd have thought), the quote doesn't support there being "hidden Griffindors" that would make up the numbers you'd need for Big Hogwarts. 4. Wand Cores Chapter 5. Ollivander talks about production techniques "We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers and the heartstrings of dragons" It doesn't sound like he has any problems with sourcing phoenix feathers for wands... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sun Aug 10 18:59:46 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:59:46 -0000 Subject: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" In-Reply-To: <20030810052359.30333.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76418 Beckah wrote (snipped): > When she is asked about it, she says that she heard "that boy" talking about them. Now, I assumed that she was referring to James, but what if she wasn't? Here is my theory: when she was a teenager, Petunia dated, and fell in love with, a wizard. During the course of this relationship they talked about many things, and she learned a lot about the wizarding world. She was so in love with him that she planned a future with him after they finished schooling. However, he was a pure blood, and while dating a muggle was fine with him, he had no intentions of ever marrying her. When he finally told her this, she was devastated and looked at the entire wizarding world in a new light - a very bad light at that. This heart break forever turned her against the wizarding world and anything to do with it. Hence the reason she is so nasty about the WW, yet seems to know so much about it. Hey, what if that boy was Snape? That would be kind of a twist, wouldn't it. :) Makes Snape calling Lily a mudblood pretty weird, though... Oh, well, this is just one of many strange things that have popped into my head when i'm jogging. evangelina From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 19:05:17 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Food /butterbeer in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030810190517.32356.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76419 > "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > > > Kim I'm beginning to get a bit concerned about the > enormous amount > > of food consumed by everyone at Hogswarts. Hardly > a healthy diet, > > even for growing teens. Also, apart from lessons, > theredoesn't seem > > to be any supervision by adults. Students go to > bed just when they > > think they will, sometimes not until the early > hours. How sad am I to > > be worrying about fictional characters putting on > weight or not > > getting enough sleep! > Buttercup: And what about butterbeer--letting kids drink an alcoholic drink at such a young age is a good way to start their lives of alcoholism. Imagine what Winky's liver looks like. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From artcase at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 17:11:14 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:11:14 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76420 (snipped to save space) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > Art wrote: > > > First, I would like to say that what JKR is doing is not > literature, in a true sense of > the word if you subscribe to post Joyce mentality. > > My god. That was harsh. IMO, everything that's written is literature. > .... Re-read the sentence that begins with "First" and you will find that the qualifying phrase is "subscribe to post Joyce mentality". Apparently, you do not subscribe to post Joyce mentality and therefore the lack of "literary" style does not affect you. I still stand by my insistence that GOF was grammatically a nightmare. If I hadn't packed the book up yesterday because we are moving in a week, I would quote specific lines and dissect exactly what is grammatically incorrect about each example. OotP had fewer examples of such errors, which means either JKR is becoming aware of her writing style, or an editor became aware and is making corrections. ... > You're still being harsh! The "-ly" form is one of my favorite > aspects ... Let me give you the Tom Mix example of "-ly" usage: The cloaked man walked haltingly to the corner where he met the stunningly beautiful woman. "Why did you bring me here?" He said menacingly. She batted her eyes flirtatiously, and said silkily, "Because I have something that will be of interest to you." He regarded her coolly before speaking gruffly. "I doubt you have anything that would interest me." That is just what came off the top of my head to illustrate how "-ly" can be over-used. If you want better examples, read Stephen King's "On Writing," he explains it much better than I just did, or Sol Stein's "Stein On Writing." ... > sentences. (Such as "the cloudless sky smiled at itself in the > smoothly sparkling lake" > -- just one example from the top of my head) This WILL sound harsh. Every writer gets lucky and slips in the "purple prose" that trickles down from the Muse. JKR has the "world" of HP beautifully developed in her imagination. For that, the series warrants a nod. Her lack of training and experience show in her writing, but are improving the more training and experience she receives. Almost every beginning writer WILL make mistakes, and their work in retrospective improves with age. To qualify any of these books as stunning examples of Literature would be an insult to Strunk & White for starters. I will not disqualify that the world of HP is wondrous and (if I dare abuse the pun) "magical," but it is not Literature (with a capital "L" as taught in moldy institutions around the globe) in the true sense of the word. Despite the examples I have listed above, I (and many others as evident by this list traffic) still love the books and the world of HP. Maybe, just maybe, that helps qualify it as literature. Art From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 10 17:14:15 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:14:15 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! (no howler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > Art wrote: > > > First, I would like to say that what JKR is doing is not > literature, in a true sense of > the word if you subscribe to post Joyce mentality. > > My god. That was harsh. IMO, everything that's written is literature. > But then, I'm just > really uneducated and choose books by subject rather than impressive > language. Well I choose books many ways. Sometimes at random. I bought a book the other day because it was on sale and I liked the cover - NO KIDDING. Turned out to be a beautifully written book that I wouldn't have otherwise have read. So I think it is unfair to just say it has to be one or the other. Wouldn't writers in any area want marry a good story (whatever that means) with great language. Afterall it is a written form so shouldn't the way you tell the story be important too. Of course Rowling doesn't have to be Joyce (whom I have not read because I am still waiting until I grow up.)I wouldn't want her to be. But I personally found her prose lacked hampered my interest. If I may ask you - What impressed you about the smiling sky? What does that mean to you. I would love to know. > > > However, she does weave a good yarn. And THAT makes the series > good. > > Gramatically, they are amatuer at best with subject/verb agreement > > problems all over the place, prepositional phrases that meander, > and > > basically poor sentence structure. That said, one must remember, > she > > did not graduate from Oxford with a masters or equivalent in > English. > > I find many occasions where I explain to my children (while > finishing > > GOF) exactly who did what in a sentence. I see that as a pretty damning statement. Or perhaps I merely too absolute about things. But isn't that what editors are for. To bring out the best in her style and push her to produce her best work. Is it just that she hasn't a good enough editor? I certainly think Rowling has talent. No doubt about that. She's able to convey her enthusiasm on the page and that in and of itself is a talent that others I think struggle to do and often fails. She seems to do so effortlessly. And I believe that is what in the end drives us to need to turn the page. Her absolute confidence that what she is writing IS exciting comes out in her style somehow in a way I have never been able to exactly pin down. So while I think Rowling has talent, I believe she often doesn't moderate herself as much as she should. She's a little self indulgent as a writer and I think that OOTP certainly shows that in length alone. Perhaps all she needs is a good editor to reel her in. And everyone has the right to an opinion on what they read. It is not owned by the academic elite. As a reader, it is the author's job to entertain in some fashion. I firmly believe the only thing you need to be able to judge is literate! Golly. From jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 17:43:25 2003 From: jwilliams44118 at yahoo.com (Jonathan) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:43:25 -0000 Subject: Rise of the next Dark Lord? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76422 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > Seeing how evil in the Harry Potter Universe doesn't seem to take a > break first with Grindelwald who is followed later by Voldemort does > anyone think that after the fall of Voldemort at the hands of our > heroes that someone else perhaps Draco Malfoy will just come and > replace Riddle as the next big bad? Draco doesn't have the brains or the initiative. Lucius, on the other hand, might make a fine replacement. In my mind, this ties in with the thread about what Harry will do after Book 7, if he survives. Every hero needs a villian. Most posts I've read seem to think Harry will either become an auror (more likely in my opinion), or will retire to the county living off a percentage of the Gred and Forge business. These options both sound anti-climactic to me, unless a suitable villian replaces Voldemort. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Aug 10 17:50:17 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:50:17 -0000 Subject: Slytherin - Grindelwald - Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76423 > --- "Hagrid" wrote: > > Voldemort was defeated, but not destroyed at the time of Harry's > > attack. > > Grindelwald was defeated by Dumbledore, but it didn't say that he > > was killed (Ref: the back of the Wizard cards in 1st book.) > > ~and~ > > Salazar Slytherin left Hogwarts, but his death was never reported. > > > There are ways and means for a wizard to stay alive over centuries. > > Flammel used the Philosophers (or Sorcerer's in US) Stone to live > > close to 700 years old. Who is to say that Salazar Slytherin > > himself doesn't possess promising students on the Dark side to > > maintain his quest? > > > > aussie ************************* > --- "lupinwolf2001" wrote: > THere has been a lot of speculation on this theroy. There is one > (I'll try and find it and email it to you) that is pretty incredible > with its evidence to making the point. Suffice to say, there are a > lot of us that think this may be the direction that Rowling is > heading this. ************************* Thanx, lupin, I'd like to compare notes. Slytherin came at a time when "... it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." So "He disliked taking students of Muggle parentage, believing them to be untrustworthy." (CoS - Chap 9) I suggest Slytherin's parents came to a violent and bloody end thanks to Muggles. This is also a pre-requisit for anyone inheriting Slytherin's role, if not lineage. So Riddle was an orphan prior to taking the Voldemort role. If the reincarnating/possessing spirit of Salazar Slytherin sees that Voldemort may lose, another candidate may be prepared ... Watch out for the death of Lucius Malfoy while in Azkaban prison. aussie From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 19:10:21 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:10:21 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <006601c35ee9$94d231a0$06c18b90@fickwalker> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76424 > From personal experience, and this is just an option, Ginny quite possibly > still feels for Harry, but has resigned herself to the fact that he's her > brother best friend or that perhaps she's just waiting for him to turn > around and see her there ... Sorry, I know this must sound silly. I've just > been in the situation where there's an affection for someone close to you or > your family like that and sometimes you have to just ... Try to forget it? > That's the wrong way to explain it. Not forget about that person or the way > you feel about them, but try to hold it back and not interfere with your > friendship with them. Plus with the added pressures for Harry, being 'the > one' and all, I'm sure Ginny wouldn't want to add to those worries, > especially after things went so disastrously with Cho. > > > Just a thought, > Glory > xx I agree, Glory. There is also this to consider. Ginny is growing very mature. Her actions in OotP prove this. It is she who got the DA members out of Draco's clutches. Her personality has gotten much stronger. She has become more, for lack of a better expression, "Lily like". Do you think that someone who knew Lily just might point that out to Harry? That would certainly get him to thinking more about her. You will recall, Lily and James were not a couple at Harry's age. We know from Remus, they didn't become a couple unitl their 7th year. I see Ginny becoming more important in the last two books. Ron, after all, does want to see Harry and his sister together. At least that is what I gather from that last chapter in OotP. I think that would be perfect. I can see Ron and Hermione together. He is definately just as brave as Harry. Witness his defense of Harry in PoA. And Hermione just couldn't hold back when Ron finally noticed she was female in GoF. Besides, she only mentions Viktor in Ron's presence. She knows what his reaction will be. Obviously she is doing it to get Ron jealous. Also, she is helping Harry get together with Cho. What girl would encourage a relationship with a rival? To put Ginny and Harry together would be the "happily ever after" in this story. Harry, who has lived for so long with a family who doesn't love him, should end up in a large and loving family. This is basically a children's story and JKR, despite the fact that she loves giving us grown up children red herrings, is writing for them. The children I have talked with, and they really do love talking about this story with an adult, have all expressed the same feelings that I have about this subject. We are all entitled to our own opinions on the subject. I cannot wait to see what JKR has in store for us! Hope the next book comes out soon. D From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 10 19:18:52 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:18:52 -0000 Subject: good!Slyth/3sistersAge/Luna:likeDD/Salazar/SecretKeeper/Bode/Lit/Flat/b-beer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76425 Nemi wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75409 : << Danger Mouse wrote: << I am sure we will, eventually, see a Slytherin student who secretly goes to Harry and whispers, "Potter, I'm with you." >> Oh wow that's a great image. And slipping into his hand a slip of paper with names on it, or plans, or even a warning. >> What would it take to get Harry to trust a Slytherin? As he is now, he would stubbornly assume that the Slytherin was luring him into some kind of trap, by giving him false information. Ariadne Majic wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75495 : << I believe in genealogy tables, children are listed left to right by oldest to youngest. Andromeda's burn mark on the tapestry was between Bellatrix and Narcissa. It says, "He (Sirius) pointed to a small burn mark between two names, Bellatrix and Narcissa." Assuming Sirius was reading left to right, then Bellatrix would be the oldest. >> I don't think Andromeda *can* be younger than Bellatrix. Because Bellatrix is in the same year at Hogwarts as Snape, MWPP, and Lily, who were born 1957-60 and therefore were 23 to 19 years old when Harry was born in 1980. Andromeda is Tonks's mother and Tonks is 6 to 8 years older than Harry (because she had finished sixth and seventh year at Hogwarts and four years of Auror training when Harry hadn't started fifth year yet). So if Andromeda were the same age as Bellatrix (let alone younger!) she would have been like 14 years old when Tonks was born. The Black family tapestry might list children in the opposite sequence that Muggles do (it would hate to do the same as Muggles!) so that Narcissa is oldest, then Andromeda, then Bellatrix ... would that make Narcissa older than Lucius? Erin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75644 : << Luna even reminds me of Dumbledore a bit. She's, um, "unique" and has sort of a quiet wisdom. >> Do people think that Dumbledore was like Luna when he was young? Up until meeting Luna, I thought that schoolboy Dumbledore was something like schoolboy James and Sirius, and he learned his eccentricity, calmness, and wisdom from long (and probably painful) experience. Caipora wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75754 : << Salazar Slitherin's first name is Iberian. Is he Basque? The founding of Hogwarts is about the time of the Song of Roland. Did Slitherin flee Spain just ahead of the invading Moors? >> I have a long fanfic theory that Salazar went from Spain to Britain when they were both parts of the Roman Empire; he's about 600 years old at the time of the Founding (he had made (or stolen) a Philosopher's Stone) and had become bitter and nasty (and maybe evil) because of all the nasty history (fall of the Roman Empire, rise of the Dark Ages) that he lived through. Silmariel wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75829 : << It can't be a Basque name. I don't live there, but I hear and read (not saying I understand) Basque enough to know there isn't a syllable in Salazar matching Basque >> I'm having trouble finding a source to cite, but "Salazar" is supposed to mean "old hall" or "old palace" with "old" being the Basque word "zahar' or "zara' or something like that. scooting2win wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75824 : << Voldemort did go alone, because "he" was told where the "Potters" lived, and if he was told by Peter, which we know is true, then how did Hagrid and Dumbledore know where it was? If Peter told Dumbledore where the house was, then why did Sirius go to Azkaban? Dumbledore said that he had known that Sirius was the Secret Keeper that he did not know that they had switched. >> OoP taught us more about how the Fidelius Charm works. When the Secret Keeper tells one person the secret, that person now knows the secret, but it is still hidden from all the people who haven't been told. So James and Lily would wanted certain people (Sirius, Dumbledore, Hagrid, maybe McGonagall, maybe Frank and Alice Longbottom) to know where they were hiding, maybe come visit them sometimes. So the Secret Keeper had to tell the secret to selected people real soon after the Charm was cast. Peter could tell Sirius in person, but he could write it in a note for Dumbledore, Hagrid, anyone else -- maybe he imitated Sirius's handwriting in the note, so they all thought it came from Sirius. Caipora wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76339 : << Rowling speaks Portuguese, in which "bode" is "goat". In Brazil "scapegoat" is "bode expiat?rio" (don't know about Portugual, which is JKR's variety). Bode is certainly sacrificed in the name of plot. >> Oh, JKR must have loved that! Thus she packs multiple meanings into one name. For in English, "bode" means something like "to be an omen of", like "This bodes ill for our hero". When "Bode and Croaker, they're Unspeakables" were mentioned in GoF, my thought was that they were both fortune-tellers. Bode for the definition stated, and Croaker for "croaking" out warnings. I didn't yet pick up on "croak" as "to die" in that scene, but it has been pointed out on list. Geoff wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76390 : << than get involved in themes which mirror real life - family rows, affairs, terrorist violence etc. Escapist >> The Potter oeuvre may be Escapism, but surely it DOES involved terrorist violence and family rows. (My own personal feeling is that JKR is disappointedd by people who still think the series is escapism after the end of GoF.) Arya wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76415 : << I assumed that a 17 year old would get his first 'own place' as a flat or apartment. >> That would surely be true for Muggles, but Sirius was a wizard. Does the wizarding world even *have* flats and apartments? But we do know (from Hagrid's example) that they do have one-room huts. I imagined him in a slightly larger small cottage, with separate kitchen, sitting/dining room, bedroom. Buttercup wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76419 : << And what about butterbeer--letting kids drink an alcoholic at such a young age is a good way to start their lives of alcoholism. Imagine what Winky's liver looks like. >> Someone else can argue that Jewish kids having at least four sips of wine each Passover does not turn them into alcoholics. I'm more interested in arguing that butterbeer is not alcoholic. Whatever the House Elves are getting drunk on is some ingredient other than alcohol, because of their non-human metabolism. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 19:44:44 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:44:44 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76426 Now for the updated calculations! I tried to fit in all the comments but there is at least one discrepancy. Many thanks to Geoff, Karen, angelic146uk, Ginger, and bibphile for input. Here goes... UPDATED FACTS: 1991 - Ron enters Hogwarts, age 11 (born 1980). Charlie has already graduated. 1991 - (SS p153) Gryffindor hasn't won the Quidditch Cup since Charlie left. 1993 - (POA p184) "Or we'll be out of the running for the eighth year in a row..." OOTP. "When Charlie, Fred and George were training in the holidays they made me keep for them." (Ron) (CoS US paperback p.323) "I've looked forward to coming to Hogwarts since B-Bill came..." (Ginny) REASONING (I won't call it Logic because who knows??...) Charlie could be at Hogwarts for only 1 or 2 years while Fred and George were there. (response to angelic146uk's comment: Fred and George could have played at home even if they weren't on the team yet.) If Charlie was still there during their 2nd year, he would have graduated in 1990, the year before HRH arrived. The consensus seems to be that there was more than one year in between. Taking Karen's comment into consideration, Gryffindor had lost the previous 7 years, not 8 (a/o the beginning of PoA). So the last time they won was in 1986. (Just another thought to really confuse the issue: McGonagall says "out of the running" not "we haven't won." Would a 2nd place finish be considered in the running?) Which means that Charlie graduated in 1986, 3 years before Fred and George even started. Now our updated and expanded timeline is: 1968 - Charlie born 1976* ? Percy born 1978* ? Fred and George born 1979 - Charlie starts Hogwarts 1980* - Ron born 1981* ? Ginny born 1986 - Charlie graduates (last time Gryffindor won Q-Cup) 1987* - Percy starts Hogwarts 1989* - Fred and George start Hogwarts 1991* - Ron starts Hogwarts 1992* - Ginny starts Hogwarts 1993* - Gryffindor hasn't won Q-Cup in 7 years (1993-7=1986) * = supported by canon CONCLUSIONS: 1. Charlie is 12 years older than Ron and 8 years older than Percy. He was 23 in SS and 27 in OoP. 2. Charlie would have graduated before Fred and George started at Hogwarts. Considering Ron would have been only 4 when Charlie graduated, and Fred and George would have been 6, the most likely way the twins would have been "in training" is if they were on a Quidditch Little League team, I there is such a thing. Maybe Ron meant that Charlie was in training and mis-spoke by including Fred and George. (Has anyone noticed that no one says George and Fred?) 3. Bill was at Hogwarts when Ginny was born. MORE QUESTIONS: 1. How old is Bill? 2. Given the 2 year differences (1 year for Ginny) between the youngest 7 kids and the big gap between Charlie and Percy, what were Molly and Arthur doing during the war? (Note: I believe that Bill and Charlie are the sons of Molly and Arthur, not adopted.) I think there is a mystery here that might come out in the next 2 books. Ravenclaw Bookworm (who has spend - certainly not wasted :) - too much time on this question and is going back to painting her daughter's room) From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Sun Aug 10 19:49:42 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:49:42 -0000 Subject: Food /butterbeer in wizarding world In-Reply-To: <20030810190517.32356.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > And what about butterbeer--letting kids drink an > alcoholic drink at such a young age is a good way to > start their lives of alcoholism. Imagine what Winky's > liver looks like. > > ===== > Buttercup I think Butterbeer might be more like either ginger beer (which is a non-alcoholic - or virtually anyway) old fashioned english soft drink, or perhaps like a drink called shandy (I am explaining this rather thoroughly for US posters who may not be familiar - not trying to patronise!). Shandy is a mix of beer and lemonade - usually much more beer than lemonade though it can be made stronger. Made weakly enough and it is suiable for children. I don't think there is any heavy duty alcohol in Butterbeer or we would surely have seen some drunkeness scenes (or being tipsy). Maybe house elves just don't have the head for drinking it and get drunk very easily. June > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From greatelderone at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 19:54:27 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:54:27 -0000 Subject: Rise of the next Dark Lord? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76428 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" wrote: > Draco doesn't have the brains or the initiative. I think he does or at least certainly after his father's capture by the order and the ministry. > Lucius, on the > other hand, might make a fine replacement. I don't think so. Lucius is too much of a follower considering that he did not strike out on his own as a Dark Lord after his masters first fall at the hands of Harry and did almost nothing, but hide and cower during that time. > These options both sound anti-climactic to me, unless a suitable > villian replaces Voldemort. Agreed. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 19:58:19 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:58:19 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76429 In message 76343 Golly wrote of disappointment in OoP. For brevity's sake, I am snipping. Allow me to go OT for a moment and draw a lesson from one of my favourite works of literature. In Green Eggs and Ham by Dr. Suess, the moral is that giving in to peer pressure is good, even when one is pressured to partake in something that is so unnatural that common sense would dictate that it would be harmful. Of course, I am being facetious. My point is that what makes literature great to one person is not necessarily that for which another is looking. As you can see on the list, the same sentance may be interpreted differently by many different people. The thing I like most about JKR seems to be that which you like least. I adore her almost conversational style of writing. I have tried reading Tolkien. I read the Hobbit and got lost several times. I finally gave up. This in no way means that JRRT is a bad writer, it just means that he is above my level of understanding. My cousins are LOTR fans, and as they are highly intelligent people, I respect JRRT as an author. I have the same trouble with a lot of adult literature. Heck, I got lost in GoF and had to go back and reread the Graveyard scene over and over. My favourite books have always been the Chronicles of Narnia, the Trixie Belden mysteries, Roald Dahl, and numerous other "children's books". I am not a complete idiot. I graduated from college with honours. I can get through a text book, but for some reason, I can't get through literature unless it is written as if someone were speaking it to me. I honestly hadn't read a real book for years until I fell in love with HP. I love her unusual descriptions like a "Hedwig-free sky". They amuse me. She is funny and clever. I love the way she respects the variety of her audience by being vague with language or ideas that may not be suitable for the very young or tolerable to the very old. She lets the readers read at their own comfort level. Exactly what did Ron tell Draco to do that Harry was sure he would have never said in front of Mrs. Weasley? It could be anything from "stick it in your ear" to the very young, to "go **** yourself" to those with more mature minds and vulgar vocabularies. I guess, in a nutshell, I'm glad she has the style she has or I'd still be struggling through CoS. You had mentioned that the themes of racism and abolition of elves had only been brushed. I agree with that completely. I am, however, holding back judgement until the series is finished. We don't know yet how these may play out. They may be cards she is holding for a very big BANG. In rereading OoP, I found myself less distracted by the differences between this and the first four. The first time through, it was jarring. It was not at all what I expected. Now that I have read and reread (and reread...) I have had time for it to digest, and I like it much better. I am not saying it will be the same for you. It is possible that the qualities you seek in literature are not in this book, and it will always be just a stepping stone between four and six. Ginger, who has respect for those who listen to their own heads and have the courage to post that with which they know others may not agree. May we all be allowed our own opinions, and may we all allow others to do the same. From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 10 20:04:49 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:04:49 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > 2. Charlie would have graduated before Fred and George started at > Hogwarts. Considering Ron would have been only 4 when Charlie > graduated, and Fred and George would have been 6, the most likely > way the twins would have been "in training" is if they were on a > Quidditch Little League team, Maybe Charlie sometimes came home from Rumania to train the twins during their school holidays. > 1. How old is Bill? I usually fantasize that there is the same two year gap between Bill and Charlie as between Percy and the twins, the twins and Ron. But it occured to me that they could be in the same year at school despite being ELEVEN MONTHS different in age, if the older brother was born right after the cut-off date for Hogwarts. > 2. Given the 2 year differences (1 year for Ginny) between the > youngest 7 kids and the big gap between Charlie and Percy, what > were Molly and Arthur doing during the war? Some people think there was one or two Weasley children born in that gap, who were killed by Death Eaters (parents coming home to see the Dark Mark over the house, as Arthur described in QWC chapter of GoF). One boy would make Ron a seventh son; if Arthur was also a seventh son, the seventh son of a seventh son is supposed to be a seer or have other magic powers. IIRC another theory is that Arthur was put under Imperius and did something awful and was put in Azkaban for a couple of years, until Molly could PROVE his innocence. I thought maybe they originally intended to have only two children, but when so many good wizards and witches were being killed by Death Eaters, they felt a duty to reproduce the wizarding species, but the timing confuses me. From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 20:19:36 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:19:36 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > McGonagall says "out of the running" not "we haven't won." Would a 2nd place finish be considered in the running?) > I think so. After all, there are only four places. Besides, every time I've heard the phrase "out of the runmimg, it meant "having no chance of winning." scoutmom : > 2. Charlie would have graduated before Fred and George started at > Hogwarts. Considering Ron would have been only 4 when Charlie > graduated, and Fred and George would have been 6, the most likely > way the twins would have been "in training" is if they were on a > Quidditch Little League team, I there is such a thing. Maybe Ron > meant that Charlie was in training and mis-spoke by including Fred > and George. (Has anyone noticed that no one says George and Fred?) > 3. Bill was at Hogwarts when Ginny was born. The twins probably were practicing for quidditch by age six. Wasn't Ron five (and the twins 7) when Fred used his pet as a bludger? I could be mistaken though. I figure Charlie wanted to play and let the little brothers play to. Bad (inexperienced) beaters were better than no beaters. Besides, you can't get rid of the little kids anyway. I think nobody says "George and Fres" because Fred is older. I'm a twin and my sister's name is always mentioned first because she's older and everyone is used to saying her name first. I know two other sets of twins and in both cases I think the olderest is usually mentioned first. scoutmom: > MORE QUESTIONS: > 1. How old is Bill? We have no idea how old Bill is except that he's older than Charlie. scoutmom: > 2. Given the 2 year differences (1 year for Ginny) between the > youngest 7 kids and the big gap between Charlie and Percy, what were Molly and Arthur doing during the war? > I have no idea what they were doing, but maybe they didn't want the have kids with Voldemort running around. Charlie would have been only 2 when Voldemort came to power (using the 8 year gap). Then they decided not to let fear rule their lives. Or Percy wasn unexpected, but remined them that life keeps moving forward even in a time of war. Or maybe they paid off the burrow a year before Percy was born and could afford more kids. Or it could be something far more interesting. I have no idea. There's also the theory that there were 1 or 2 Weasly kids between Charlie and Percy that were killed somehow. I hope not. bibphile From DMCourt11 at cs.com Sun Aug 10 20:20:21 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:20:21 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76432 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup > wrote: > > During the first Occlumency lesson, > > why would Snape ask Harry "To whom did the dog > > belong?" Why would he care? Caius Marcius replied: > It happened during the first lesson, the first time Snape penetrates > Harry's mind. Snape has always been so accustomed to assume that > Harry is a carbon copy of James - "he's so arrogrant, criticism just > bounces off him" - that he might have been taken aback to catch these > glimpses of just how much Harry was abused and humiliated in his > childhood (we don't know how much Snape knows of Privet Drive). > Perhaps this points - if not to a full reconciliation - to at least a > lessening of hostility between the two in the future. Me: The more I read these discussions, the more I'm convinced Snape left the Pensieve out on purpose. I know this has been raised before, but I know sometimes JKR has her characters do unwise things that keep the plot moving or set things up for something to come. How many things would not have happened if Harry had been more forthcoming to Dumbledore? For one thing, is this really Snapes worst memory? Wouldn't the Prank count? How about the catalyst(hello Bangers!) that caused Snape to change sides? I think Snape might have been beginning to feel more empathy for Harry. He may have felt he needed a reason to regain his hatred of Harry, either to maintain his cover when Voldemort is inspecting his mind, or because he's a bitter man who needs to feel hate toward Harry (or maybe a little of both?). We don't know if this particular memory was even one Snape had removed in previous sessions. He may have been hoping that Harry would look into the pensieve and so chose the best memory that would put James in the worst possible light. Knowing what Harry went through, Snape would have a better idea of what would deflate Harry's worship of his father. Was Snape's anger genuine? Maybe. He'd been hoping Harry would look but he could still feel angry that he did (also because he had to relive the memory too, when he went in to pull Harry out). I'm still not sure if he arranged this so he could stop the occlumency lessons, and if he did what his motives were. This has been discussed quite a bit, but I can't make up my mind yet. We may have to wait for book 6 to know. Donna From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 10 18:27:49 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 14:27:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry, Hermione & Ron [SHIP + CRAB] References: <3F281EB1.9040106@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: <3F368EA5.50601@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76433 Przemyslaw Plaskowicki wrote: > > However, I belive, most clear is R/H SHIP, and it was confirmed by JKR > herself > (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2003/0620-dateline-couric.htm), > in the interview with Catie Couric. This interview, dated 20 Oct 2000: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-livechat-barnesnoble.html contains an even more direct confirmation: Q: Is it just me, or was something going on between Ron and Hermione during the last half of Goblet of Fire? ... A: ... Yes, something's "going on," but Ron doesn't realize it yet. Typical boy. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 20:33:56 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:33:56 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76434 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > > Maybe Charlie sometimes came home from Rumania to train the twins > during their school holidays. Good point. I hadn't thought about that. > But it occured to me that they could be in the same year at school despite being ELEVEN MONTHS different in age, if the older brother was born right after the cut-off date for Hogwarts. There are 2 boys in my son's class who are in exactly that situation. Most people think they are twins. However, I think something would have been said before now if that was the case with Bill and Charlie. > Some people think there was one or two Weasley children born in > that gap, who were killed by Death Eaters (parents coming home > to see the Dark Mark over the house, as Arthur described in QWC > chapter of GoF). One boy would make Ron a seventh son; if Arthur was also a seventh son, the seventh son of a seventh son is supposed to be a seer or have other magic powers. I've heard this theory and it is possible. Bill and Charlie would know, of course, but they are obviously capable of keeping secrets. The circumstantial evidence against it that I would think that they would have gotten choked up when they described it during the World Cup but there didn't seem to be any unusual emotion displayed. Is Arthur a 7th son? Or is Molly a 7th? And does it apply to a 7th child, not just a son? I'm thinking about Ginny of course. If they had all their children 2 years apart, that would indicate 3 born between Charlie and Percy. (I used to work with a man who had 10 kids, each one 2 years behind the previous - and no twins. His wife said she wanted a baker's dozen!) The loss of 3 kids would be a family tragedy that at least would have been hinted at by now. I wonder if they, or one of them, were working under cover, or something like that so that they weren't together. > IIRC another theory is that Arthur was put under Imperius and did > something awful and was put in Azkaban for a couple of years, until Molly could PROVE his innocence. Anything is possible. I'm not sure this is plausible since there has been NO hint of anything like that and JKR has said she was trying to get a lot of clues into this book so she could build on them in the next 2. Ravenclaw Bookworm From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 10 20:36:03 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:36:03 -0000 Subject: Chapter Discussions: Chapter 3, the Advance Guard In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76435 > > (Q 11) Why when the MoM appear to monitor Harry's presence in > Privet > > Drive, do they not monitor ? or question ? his sudden disappearance > > from there? Marianne wrote: Or has the MoM been told that Harry is with the Weasleys, > and that's enough of an explanation? > Pip!Squeak ponders: That might be it. After all, Harry has visited the Weasley's before, so it's a plausible location for him. And isn't the letter announcing the change of time for the hearing sent to The Burrow? This might be why Harry goes to the hearing with Mr Weasley and only Mr Weasley - because otherwise the story that 'he's staying with the Weasley's' would be blown if he goes to the MoM with a huge escort. I do wonder if Mr Weasley is more powerful than we're led to think though. He's on his own guarding the prophecy, he's on his own with the kids in GoF, when Voldy has risen. Dumbledore seems to treat him like a really powerful wizard. Maybe it really is just Fudge's prejudice about 'muggle-lovers that has held Arthur Weasley back? Pip!Squeak From yellows at aol.com Sun Aug 10 20:36:26 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:36:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) Message-ID: <55BC386F.51F32B2D.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76436 In a message dated 8/10/2003 12:04:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KathyK writes: <> I think you've hit it! (but what it is, I have no idea ) Sirius just doesn't have the personality to accept something like this. I think he'd die for Harry if the time came, but not *plan to die* for Harry ahead of time. Now, Lupin is another story. Lupin is practical and does follow reason to the best of his ability. I've looked back at the page where ... *sniff* ... and, yes, I see the jet of light coming from an unknown, but implied, source. I can see that it could easily be someone else's jet of light. I don't know where Lupin is facing at the time, but it seems as though DD is NOT facing the veil. In my hardback, US version, page 805: The final jet hits Sirius "squarely on the chest." Sirius' eyes "widened in shock." This, of course, could be shock that he's going to die. But many of us seem to agree that it's not the jet of light that kills him, but crossing through the veil. If he hasn't crossed the veil at that point, why would he look shocked? But if someone who shouldn't be shooting at him has just delivered a blow, that *would* be shocking. Even more shocking to Sirius would be the feeling that he's being pushed backward into the deadly veil against his will. After the jet hits him and he's shocked, Harry drops Neville and "He was jumping down the steps again, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore turned to the dais too." (page 806) DD was not, as far as we can tell, facing Sirius, and therefore, I think not a candidate for the one who sent the final jet of light. Then, of course, there's the mingled fear and surprise on Siruis' face two paragraphs down. And Lupin seems to accept that he's dead right away. This could be read as Lupin's practical side taking over, but it could also be read that he knew it would happen ahead of time and had already been grieving long before the Department of Mysteries. Now, Bellatrix screams in triumph when Sirius passes through the veil, but she never says anything about having killed him. She taunts Harry with, "Aaaaaah... did you *love* him, little baby Potter?" (page 810 US Hardback) But she never brags about killing Sirius. Okay, I'm officially going to accept that Lupin *may* have had something to do with Sirius' death. :) But I need some more convincing. Who wants to analyze DD's and Lupin's behaviors both before and after the death? JKR usually presents us with a number of clues. Other than the surprise and the jet of light from nowhere, what do we have to work with? Brief Chronicles From bibphile at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 20:37:11 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:37:11 -0000 Subject: 3sistersAge (was:/Luna:likeDD/Salazar/SecretKeeper/Bode/Lit/Flat/b-beer) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76437 >> Ariadne Majic wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75495 : I believe in genealogy tables, children are listed left to right by oldest to youngest. Andromeda's burn mark on the tapestry was between Bellatrix and Narcissa. It says, "He (Sirius) pointed to a small burn mark between two names, Bellatrix and Narcissa." Assuming Sirius was reading left to right, then Bellatrix would be the oldest. > > Catlady: I don't think Andromeda *can* be younger than Bellatrix. Because Bellatrix is in the same year at Hogwarts as Snape, MWPP, and Lily, who were born 1957-60 and therefore were 23 to 19 years old when Harry was born in 1980. Andromeda is Tonks's mother and Tonks is 6 to 8 years older than Harry (because she had finished sixth and seventh year at Hogwarts and four years of Auror training when Harry hadn't started fifth year yet). So if Andromeda were the same age as Bellatrix (let alone younger!) she would have been like 14 years old when Tonks was born. The Black family tapestry might list children in the opposite sequence that Muggles do (it would hate to do the same as Muggles!) so that Narcissa is oldest, then Andromeda, then Bellatrix ... would that make Narcissa older than Lucius? > me (bibphile): I don't think the tapestry is done opposite muggles. If it were, I think JKR would give us some hit of that. Here's my theory. Bellatrix is 3 years older than Snape. This would put her between Lucius and Snape in age. It would work even better if Rudophus were a year younger than Bellatrix. That ways Snape could really be haging out with Rudophus and be haging out with Bellatrix bt association. (2 years is no big deal even in school, but I'm not sure about three.) Andromeda is just a year younger than Bellatrix. She hated her family like Sirius and wanted to get away from them. This would be especially true after she fell in love with muggle-born Ted Tonks. She quit school after O.W.L.s. (We know it's done occassionally. The twins did it.) She married Ted and had Tonks 9-14 months later. This would work better if Ted were two years older than Andromeda and had taken his NEWTs, but could work if he left after OWLS. Narcissa is 1-5 years younger than Andromeda. bibphile From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Aug 10 20:39:58 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:39:58 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dark Mark question Message-ID: <6d.16ee9181.2c68079e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76438 In a message dated 8/9/2003 11:26:00 PM Pacific Daylight Time, l10r77 at juno.com writes: > I couldn't find this referenced anywhere but... > I'm re-reading GoF and in the scene where Karkaroff shows Snape that > his Dark Mark is getting clearer...does that mean that the mark is > normally, or relatively invisible when circumstances dictate? I mean, > when LV is not around, does the mark disappear completely? Perhaps > that's why it was such a job identifying true DE's after the downfall > of LV? > I think it does fade out - but I also got the impression, from Fudge's reaction, that he at least was unaware of that particular manifestation of the Dark Mark. He knew it when it was shot into the sky, but didn't know that the DEs were marked with it, as well. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Sun Aug 10 20:47:45 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:47:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" Message-ID: <78E7CDFC.0750F96D.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76439 In a message dated 8/10/2003 5:34:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KathyK writes: <> I agree. I thought, with words to describe her speech like "jerkily," that Petunia was simply lying. Here's what I think: Petunia has had to keep in touch with DD, at DD's orders, and in secret so as to not upset Vernon. She hasn't liked it, but DD has told her all about Azkaban and the Dementors, so she fears him enough to follow his orders. Perhaps she does have a questionable wizarding family past and could be a potential inmate at Azkaban if she breaks this rule, at least DD tells her so. Why else would she seem to know so little about the WW (or be able to feign ignorance about it), but still have evident knowledge of Azkaban? Harry was actively involved in the WW for a couple of years without knowing of Azkaban. Brief Chronicles From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Sun Aug 10 19:17:56 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:17:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F369A64.10007@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 76440 Steve wrote (2003-08-10 17:11): >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" > wrote: > > > >>Kim I'm beginning to get a bit concerned about the enormous amount >>of food consumed by everyone at Hogswarts. Hardly a healthy diet, >>even for growing teens. Also, apart from lessons, theredoesn't seem >>to be any supervision by adults. Students go to bed just when they >>think they will, sometimes not until the early hours. How sad am I to >>be worrying about fictional characters putting on weight or not >>getting enough sleep! >> >> > >As far as bed time, I think it is a good lesson in responsibility. >True they let you go to sleep when you want to, but if you oversleep, >it mean no breakfast and detention. Both very good incentives to make >it up on time. > > Yes. It's the same as with young kids (age 2-6), who often don't want to eat. There are two aproaches: one advice parents to force them to eat, and other one states: "in home where is plenty of food, child can't starve." I also would like to point out, that Hogwarts is a completely controlled enviroment, in fact it is similar to prison -- you can't leave when you want. And 11 years olds should be enough self-sufficient. -- Pshemekan From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sun Aug 10 20:52:35 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:52:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Magic Without Wands? Message-ID: <1a4.1858e2ba.2c680a93@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76441 In a message dated 8/10/2003 5:50:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, evangelina839 at yahoo.se writes: > Tamara wrote: > >Can wizards and witches do magic without their wands or a potion? > > Harry has! But I wonder if he's a special case or if everyone can? Neville > did some > instinctive life-saving wandless magic, but I can't remember anyone doing > anything > beyond childhood... like Harry performing Lumos without his wand in OotP. > Anyone willing to do the research? I'm questioning whether the glass jar/bottle/whatever that broke as Harry was leaving Snape's office after that little snooping session in the Penseive, was actually thrown by Snape - or if one or the other of them lost control enough to shatter it with wandless magic. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sun Aug 10 20:54:07 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:54:07 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! (no howler) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76442 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Well I choose books many ways. Sometimes at random. I bought a book > the other day because it was on sale and I liked the cover - NO > KIDDING. Turned out to be a beautifully written book that I wouldn't > have otherwise have read. > > So I think it is unfair to just say it has to be one or the other. > Wouldn't writers in any area want marry a good story (whatever that > means) with great language. Afterall it is a written form so > shouldn't the way you tell the story be important too. That's not what I meant, that one has to rule out the other. Did it really come out that way? I have chosen books by their subject, only to find that they were so poorly written that I couldn't enjoy them (one in particular... crappiest book I've ever read...), and I have also read books that I couldn't relate to at all, but still found loads of memorable phrases, expressions... etc. A good combination is of course the ideal, and quite frankly, I think Rowling belongs in that category. > Of course Rowling doesn't have to be Joyce (whom I have not read > because I am still waiting until I grow up.) Dito. :) Judging by the extracts I read in school he'll be quite interesting. I wouldn't want her to > be. But I personally found her prose lacked hampered my interest. Golly also asked me..... > If I may ask you - What impressed you about the smiling sky? What > does that mean to you. I would love to know. I'm not sure really; it was just something that caught my eye. Maybe it was the mental image of a sky smiling. I love the sky and I love smiles, so it's possible that combining the two is just an easy way to charm me. :) That was however just the first thing that came into my head at the time - there are other passages that I like more. evangelina From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 20:55:43 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 13:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: butterbeer in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030810205543.23599.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76443 Buttercup wrote: > > > > And what about butterbeer--letting kids drink an > > alcoholic drink at such a young age is a good way > to > > start their lives of alcoholism. Imagine what > Winky's > > liver looks like. > > June wrote: > I think Butterbeer might be more like either ginger > beer (which is a > non-alcoholic - or virtually anyway) old fashioned > english soft > drink, or perhaps like a drink called shandy (I am > explaining this > rather thoroughly for US posters who may not be > familiar - not > trying to patronise!). Shandy is a mix of beer and > lemonade - > usually much more beer than lemonade though it can > be made > stronger. Made weakly enough and it is suiable for > children. > > I don't think there is any heavy duty alcohol in > Butterbeer or we > would surely have seen some drunkeness scenes (or > being tipsy). > Maybe house elves just don't have the head for > drinking it and get > drunk very easily. Buttercup: I've never heard of shandy, but then I'm not British and I don't drink alcohol. What you said is true. If there was a decent amount of alcohol in butterbeer, I'm sure some of the kids (like Fred and George perhaps) would've had a good old time after winning a Quidditch match. And maybe since elves are tiny, what alcohol that is in butterbeer intoxicates them faster and with a higher degree of potency. Thanks for explaining. I heard it's real hot in the UK now, so go have a shandy. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From WFeuchter at msn.com Sun Aug 10 20:58:01 2003 From: WFeuchter at msn.com (hpoldfan) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:58:01 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelic146uk" wrote: > I think Charlie is only a five years older then the twins, because of > what Ron said OOTP. "When Charlie, Fred and George were training in According to th HP Lexicon Charlie was born in 1967,and was at Hogwarts 78 to 85. The Lexicon is considered accurate by JKR. Bill From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 20:59:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:59:16 -0000 Subject: Food /butterbeer in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76445 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup > wrote: > > > > And what about butterbeer--letting kids drink an > > alcoholic drink at such a young age is a good way to > > start their lives of alcoholism. Imagine what Winky's > > liver looks like. > > > > ===== > > Buttercup > > I think Butterbeer might be more like either ginger beer (which is a > non-alcoholic - or virtually anyway) old fashioned english soft > drink, or perhaps like a drink called shandy ...edited... > I don't think there is any heavy duty alcohol in Butterbeer or we > would surely have seen some drunkeness scenes (or being tipsy). > Maybe house elves just don't have the head for drinking it and get > drunk very easily. > > June bboy_mn: I've touched on this before, I've done some research into beverages in the UK bacause in one of my stories, Harry and Ron have a Ginger Beer (ginger ale in the US) company (Harry Potter's Wizard's Brew - All Natural Amazingly Stronge Ginger Beer). In the UK, beverages are allowed to have 0.5% alcohol and are still classified as a soft drink. That means to get the alcohol of one normal beer/ale, you would have to drink about a dozen of these soft drinks. The expense alone would make it prohibative to try and get drunk on a soft drink like this. Many years ago, 'fizz' was not injected into soft drinks by a carbonation machine, it was a natural by-product of the fermentation process. Yes, even soft drinks were fermented. And, any fermentation process does produce a trace of alcohol. But the way, the fizz and foam you get from fermentation is much finer and thicker than you get with injected carbonation. So, if we assume that Butterbeer is 'fizzy' and the 'beer' part of the name would imply this, and if we assume it is produce in by the old fashioned natural fermentation process, then it could have a trace of alcohol. Given the tiny bodies of house-elves and how close to the surface their emotions are, it seems reasonable that even a trace of alcohol could have a strong effect on them. Just passing it along. bboy_mn From yellows at aol.com Sun Aug 10 21:07:16 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:07:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: If you are prepared, Severus- Question answered? Message-ID: <53B8D048.10F8C892.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76446 In a message dated 8/9/2003 11:53:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Carina writes: <> Pulling out my GoF... Okay, my UK paperback, page 565, has three dead DEs, three missing. One of the missing is cowardly and he will pay, one has left forever and he will be killed, and the last missing DE is at Hogwarts. Of the three missing, the last is clearly Crouch Jr. But there are two others, and we have to go with what we know. Snape's a missing DE. And then there's Karkaroff. Do we know where he is? Is he dead yet? I think he's the one who will be killed. He hasn't the guts or connections, it seems, to make up something about his absence. Snape, on the other hand, can say that he simply can't make it to the meeting or else DD will catch him, and then he can take his punishment and move on. I think this makes him all the more noble, because he knows he'll be tortured for not making the staff meeting that night , but he has to spy for the Order, so he sucks it up for the greater good. :) Brief Chronicles From lbiles at flash.net Sun Aug 10 21:12:43 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:12:43 -0000 Subject: Portkeys / Harry apparating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: ***snip*** Since the book is from Harry's point of view, I don't think we will see that until Harry starts taking Apparation lessons, or perhaps, in the heat of the moment, we see him spontaniously apparate. > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn I think he has spontaneously apparated before without realizing it: "On the other hand, he'd gotten into terrible trouble for being found on the roof of the school kitchens. Dudley's gang had been chasing him as usual when, as much to Harry's surprise as anyone else's, there he was sitting on the chimney. The Dursleys had received a very angry letter from Harry's headmistress telling them Harry had been climbing school buildings. But all he'd tried to do (as he shouted at Uncle Vernon through the locked door of his cupboard) was jump behind the big trash cans outside the kitchen doors. Harry supposed that the wind must have caught him in mid-jump." (SS pg 25 US) So, either he apparated or he was flying without a broom. I'd go with apparating! leb From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 21:17:35 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:17:35 -0000 Subject: If you are prepared, Severus- Question answered? In-Reply-To: <53B8D048.10F8C892.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76448 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/9/2003 11:53:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Carina writes: > > <> > > Pulling out my GoF... Okay, my UK paperback, page 565, has three dead DEs, three missing. One of the missing is cowardly and he will pay, one has left forever and he will be killed, and the last missing DE is at Hogwarts. > > Of the three missing, the last is clearly Crouch Jr. But there are two others, and we have to go with what we know. Snape's a missing DE. And then there's Karkaroff. Do we know where he is? Is he dead yet? I think he's the one who will be killed. He hasn't the guts or connections, it seems, to make up something about his absence. > > Snape, on the other hand, can say that he simply can't make it to the meeting or else DD will catch him, and then he can take his punishment and move on. I think this makes him all the more noble, because he knows he'll be tortured for not making the staff meeting that night , but he has to spy for the Order, so he sucks it up for the greater good. :) > > Brief Chronicles Snape was at H.W. and couldnt apperate, and Crouch Jr. is the one whos most loyal. karakoff is the one who will be killed. Snape the one who will pay That leaves Three. Three Unknowns.... Garrett From sydpad at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 21:19:04 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:19:04 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumenc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76449 Donna wrote: > The more I read these discussions, the more I'm convinced Snape left > the Pensieve out on purpose. I know this has been raised before, but > I know sometimes JKR has her characters do unwise things that keep > the plot moving or set things up for something to come. How many > things would not have happened if Harry had been more forthcoming to > Dumbledore? > > For one thing, is this really Snapes worst memory? Wouldn't the Prank > count? How about the catalyst(hello Bangers!) that caused Snape to > change sides? > > I think Snape might have been beginning to feel more empathy for > Harry. He may have felt he needed a reason to regain his hatred of > Harry, either to maintain his cover when Voldemort is inspecting his > mind, or because he's a bitter man who needs to feel hate toward > Harry (or maybe a little of both?). > > We don't know if this particular memory was even one Snape had > removed in previous sessions. He may have been hoping that Harry > would look into the pensieve and so chose the best memory that would > put James in the worst possible light. Knowing what Harry went > through, Snape would have a better idea of what would deflate Harry's > worship of his father. > > Was Snape's anger genuine? Maybe. He'd been hoping Harry would look > but he could still feel angry that he did (also because he had to > relive the memory too, when he went in to pull Harry out). > > I'm still not sure if he arranged this so he could stop the > occlumency lessons, and if he did what his motives were. This has > been discussed quite a bit, but I can't make up my mind yet. We may > have to wait for book 6 to know. Me: I think Snape would have LOVED to show Harry that James was a pillock, EXCEPT if it involved Harry also seeing his scary Potions Master helpless, humiliated, out-gunned, and literally with his pants down. It just seems out of character for him to let anyone see him being weak. I think that's why this is Snape's 'worst' memory-- it's the worst one for Harry to see. No matter what dreadful things we could have seen from his Death Eater days, Snape knows that they wouldn't change Harry's opinion of him, really. Snape doesn't care if people think he's a bastard, so long as they think he's a scary bastard. To witness Snape being weak and an object of pity, that's a different kettle of fish altogether. In Snape's emotionally crippled world view, that wouldn't arouse someone's compassion; it would just make him vulnerable prey. IMO, Snape would have assumed that Harry would have been on his father's side in that scene-- that he would have thought it was hilarious to see his dad getting one over on ol' Snape. Plus, his anger was absolutely genuine, IMO. If he left the Pensive out to hurt Harry, I think he would have wandered in and gloated, not grabbed him and thrown him to the floor. Why would he hide his triumph? It would be more Snapey, I think, for him to say, "So, you fell for my little trap. How predictable you are." On the other hand, I can definitely see a case for Snape having SUBCONSIOUSLY left the Pensive out, for the reasons you describe, and also as a... cry for help? See that big volume of Freud behind Rowling in her author's picture? Sydney From cymru4me at pacbell.net Sun Aug 10 18:38:24 2003 From: cymru4me at pacbell.net (Carleen Ibrahim) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:38:24 -0700 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! References: Message-ID: <002601c35f6e$96275ff0$7613c4ac@carali> No: HPFGUIDX 76450 Wiley wrote: > I have to side with the people who feel criticizing the series is a > bit pretentious. For cripe's sake, people...this is young adult > literature, not Joyce or Tolkein or Hemmingway. I don't ever expect > Rowling to be brought up in a university literature course. Actually, I teach literature at a university in Southern California and require my students, the majority of whom will become elementary school teachers, to read the first book in the series. Although I assign the book because the class deals with issues of classroom censorship, and the HP books fall under heavy censure in many areas of the US, I also manage to work in a discussion of the ways in which Harry fits the model of an epic hero and follows Joseph Campbell's heroic quest. Carleen Asal Persians--Cats as sweet as honey http://www.asalpersians.com From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 10 21:27:12 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:27:12 -0000 Subject: Re-reading In-Reply-To: <001e01c35f6e$c452ae20$de516751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > 3. Big Hogwarts? Big Hufflepuff? Ffred: > Chapter 7. The sorting process. Of the students whose house is given here, 3 > are listed for Hufflepuff (Abbott, Bones, Finch-Fletchley), 3 for Ravenclaw > (Boot, Brocklehurst, Turpin), 3 for Slytherin (Bulstrode, Malfoy, Zabini), > and 6 for Gryffindor (Brown, Finnegan, Granger, Longbottom, Potter, > Weasley). > > It's not conclusive, but it sounds as if JKR is trying to emphasise that the > houses are roughly equal (though the Gryffs are highlighted because that's > where Our Heroes end up, of course). Geoff: But not everybody is named. Surely Crabbe and Goyle are in the same year as Malfoy but are not named at that point in the book. From tfantinel at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 19:15:17 2003 From: tfantinel at yahoo.com (tfantinel) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:15:17 -0000 Subject: SHIP I believe it will be Harry and Hermione In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "artcase" wrote: Art said: > I will try to be kind, however, I disagree. The H/R "ship" carries > the same emotional fluctuation that Psyche and Cupid had. While it > makes for great Greek tradgedy, it would in real life make for poor basis for lasting stability. It does however make for interesting > prospects like Ron reacting to Hermione's attentions to Harry, (given the possibility that he finally notices her.) It opens a whole new chapter to the people deciding who the betrayer could be.... I say > Ron, for a while, because he is jealous of Harry beating him once > again to something Ron wants. Of course, just out of school, not one of them should be considering a LTR until LV is defeated and the > future secure, but then again, there were plenty of young brides and grooms before soldiers were sent to duty in wars, so who knows? >>> I actually agree with you. I prefer H/R to H/H, if we're going to pair them up at all. I just think that Ron needs to grow up a bit more before it has a chance of working out. I'm sure you remember how very awkward 15 was. But they are far too young for any LTR, regardless of the status of the war. I was just saying that I was willing to be open to other pairings. If JKR chooses to go with H/H, I won't curse the series and never read it again. :) Frankly, I think that they each need to find an SO who *isn't* one of the core three or secondary three. Their friendship is too essential to each of them to allow teen-age romance to jeopardize it. Of course, they won't realize that until it's almost too late. :) tfantinel From sydenmill at msn.com Sun Aug 10 21:33:09 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:33:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76453 POA, ch. 11, pg. 228, American Edition, Trelawney speaking: "'I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die.'" GOF, ch. 23, pg. 415-419, American Edition "The House tables had vanished; instead there were about a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones, each seating about a dozen people." (Reading through that section, we know that the judges and the champions with their partners are seated together at the top table: Dumbledore, Karkaroff, Bagman, Maxime, Percy, Krum & Hermoine, Harry & Parvati, Roger & Fleur, Cedric & Cho. Thirteen people.) "When the food had been consumed, Dumbledore stood up and asked the students to do the same." Uh. Oh. Bohcoo From mlacats at aol.com Sun Aug 10 20:04:52 2003 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:04:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mrs. Figg, Petunia, Dumbledore, Houses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76454 biggladolaf writes: > Mrs. Figg > > JWWilliams is right in predictions. Mrs. Figg is not a Squib. I am > also not entirely convinced that Petunia is completely devoid of > magic. >>> I don't understand -- in the beginning of the 2nd. chapter of OotP Mrs. Figg says she is a Squib. I quote... "I'm a squib, as Mundungus knows full well, so how on earth was I supposed to help you fight off dementors...?" Now, Petunia, for me, is an unkown entity. I mean she could be a Sqib, a Muggle or a witch with latent abilities. One thing I believe is that, when she did not receive her letter as her sister Lily did, she was extremely upset and became very jealous of her sister. I mean, Lily had been going on and on about Hogwarts and all the wonderful stuff there and Petunia was just itching to go there too.... Anyway, can you tell me what you mean by Mrs. Figg not being a Squib? Thanks, Harriet From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sun Aug 10 21:36:05 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:36:05 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76455 > > Art wrote: > > > > > First, I would like to say that what JKR is doing is not > > literature, in a true sense of > > the word if you subscribe to post Joyce mentality. I replied: > > My god. That was harsh. IMO, everything that's written is > literature. And Art then said....: > Re-read the sentence that begins with "First" and you will find that > the qualifying phrase is "subscribe to post Joyce mentality". I say: I didn't miss that definition. I still believe though that it was a harsh thing to say, whatever mentality you subscribe to. It wasn't necessarily directed at you personally. Back to Art... > Apparently, you do not subscribe to post Joyce mentality and > therefore the lack of "literary" style does not affect you. I still > stand by my insistence that GOF was grammatically a nightmare. If I > hadn't packed the book up yesterday because we are moving in a week, > I would quote specific lines and dissect exactly what is > grammatically incorrect about each example. OotP had fewer examples > of such errors, which means either JKR is becoming aware of her > writing style, or an editor became aware and is making corrections. Me again: I really can't comment much on your GoF judgement, as I haven't read the original version. I saw absolutely no nightmare-ish grammar in the Swedish translation, but I guess Rowling didn't have a lot of influence there. And though you most likely have a better knowledge of English than I do, I didn't find any such mistakes in OotP either. I then wrote.... > > You're still being harsh! The "-ly" form is one of my favorite > > aspects ... ...to which Art replied: > Let me give you the Tom Mix example of "-ly" usage: > The cloaked man walked haltingly to the corner where he met the > stunningly beautiful woman. > "Why did you bring me here?" He said menacingly. > She batted her eyes flirtatiously, and said silkily, "Because I have > something that will be of interest to you." > He regarded her coolly before speaking gruffly. "I doubt you have > anything that would interest me." > > That is just what came off the top of my head to illustrate how "-ly" > can be over-used. If you want better examples, read Stephen > King's "On Writing," he explains it much better than I just did, or > Sol Stein's "Stein On Writing." Me: Yeah... that was just vile. ;) Although liking the "-ly" doesn't necessarily mean I like it all the time, all over the place. I'm sure I didn't say that. :) And I really don't think Rowling overuses the form. I read a random extract of OotP, paying extra attention to any -ly:s (ehm), and I find them well-used, at the most. Yes, there may be many, but I like Rowling's descriptive way of writing and don't mind it being done this way. Art: > This WILL sound harsh. Every writer gets lucky and slips in > the "purple prose" that trickles down from the Muse. JKR has > the "world" of HP beautifully developed in her imagination. For that, > the series warrants a nod. Her lack of training and experience show > in her writing, but are improving the more training and experience > she receives. Almost every beginning writer WILL make mistakes, and > their work in retrospective improves with age. To qualify any of > these books as stunning examples of Literature would be an insult to > Strunk & White for starters. To be honest, I found that less harsh than the rest of it. :) Probably because I don't mind mistakes being made or anyone lacking in training and experience. I think I agree with almost everything there, except I'm not sure it's fair to assume that every poetic piece of prose (ah, alliteration) of Rowling's is a strike of luck. I also wonder why her books can't be called stunning literature without it being an immediate insult... I'm not saying they *are* absolutely stunning and the best written books I've ever read etc, but I think they're way above "insult". But that was just a notion I had that I can't really explain well, so let's not argue on that one... > I will not disqualify that the world of HP is wondrous and (if I dare > abuse the pun) "magical," but it is not Literature (with a > capital "L" as taught in moldy institutions around the globe) in the > true sense of the word. > > Despite the examples I have listed above, I (and many others as > evident by this list traffic) still love the books and the world of > HP. Maybe, just maybe, that helps qualify it as literature. And I think it's definately literature, but we've been through that discussion. We have different standards, which is fine, but I don't think I would ever had engaged in this discussion if I hadn't found it so unfair that the HP books weren't even fit to qualify as literature. Maybe it isn't, by post Joyce mentality, but, well... I find it unfair nevertheless. evangelina From yellows at aol.com Sun Aug 10 21:41:10 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:41:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Portraits & Sirius Message-ID: <6ED8374D.228223B3.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76456 In a message dated 8/10/2003 1:11:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, SnapesSlytherin writes: <> First of all, let me say that I don't think Harry will communicate with Sirius again (unless it's one of those wand-suck things from the graveyard scene in GoF). I don't think that's JKR's plan. That aside, hypothetically speaking, I think a young portrait of Sirius would be subject to what the portrait was exposed to. A few people have said that portraits are like seperate entities, not ghosts, of their subjects. They are very like their subjects, with similar personalities, but they are not the same thing. I don't think a young portrait of Sirius would: 1. BE Young!Sirius nor 2. Be limited to Young!Sirius' knowledge of things. Consider Portrait!Phineas Nigellus, who learned of Sirius' death in DD's office. Brief Chronicles From nansense at cts.com Sun Aug 10 20:05:00 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:05:00 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76457 > I have consistently felt that while I like Harry Potter's universe, > OOTP is not a great or even good novel. .. dully written and filled > with hackneyed phrases.... > Though it takes on the ideas of racism, parental fallibility, > burgeoning sexuality, and a dozen other dark parts of adult life - > IMO it fails to scratch beneath the surface of these ideas and > explore what they mean. Instead Rowling uses them more as mere plot > devices. First, I'm curious about whether this reaction occurred for you in this book but not in the other four. As for plot devices, the Potterverse includes lots of variables falling into place over the course of the narrative. Rather than reading for the close character study, I count on a lot of action and dialogue to fuel my impulse to turn the many pages. I'm not expecting Faulkner or Shakespeare or Atwood. JKR crafts stories in an exciting way, but she definitely could use a more vigilant editor. I love the way she plays with language and images ---Mimbulus mimbletonia, Bellatrix LeStrange --- although her grammar can be a bit loose. > For example...I never get the feeling Hermione suffers in > her quest to help the elves (as abolistionists did in the 18th and > 19th centuries) nor does she suffer for being the victim or racism > (as children still do around the world). No teacher keeps her down. > Noone beats her to a pulp. (She's not scared of Draco's threats even > if they anger her.) In a way this makes Hermione an even more culturally relevant character. How do we stay conscious during these multicultural times in which social inequities are more subtle? No one is turning the firehoses on us, but there are still plenty of isms to keep us all busy. I'm glad that we live in a time where a knowing, pushy nerd gal so effectively illustrates our collective cluelessness. > So while the themes may be good, I FEEL (and I know this is a > personal opinion) Rowling has provided little in the way of insight > into these themes or the human experience. Harry neither appears > traumatised nor truely in pain to me. Well, things do seem to be heating up for our Harry. I've always envied the readers who weep at this and that. I've never had that ability. But I can identify with Harry's anger and exhaustion. JKR depicts a stressed out kid fast approaching his breaking point. > I want to see it the way you > do; try and convince me. I'd love to change my mind. His suffering > seems nothing more than that of a bratty teen. I'm wondering why it's so important to view the book in a different way. Why not embrace your own perspective? My sense is that Harry's stresses have a more intense cause than those of your average adolescent----it's not every bratty teen whose fate is intimately intertwined with that of the Dark Lord. > Is OOTP just brain candy or is it literature? It can't be both. Perhaps neither? For me it's rather more candified than literary, but maybe really, really great candy? Like those Godiva dark chocolate scallop shells with the soft hazelnut mousse in the inside? > I can't shake the idea that Byatt was in some way right - and I have > to ask if Rowling's world is not about the depth and power behind > magic and what it brings - what has Rowling to say to me? And is she > saying it... I found Byatt unduly grumpy, myself, like a cranky adult in 1963 who loves classical music and utterly misses the point of rock n roll. she seemed to be tuned into the wrong frequency and thus missing the essense of Potterversality. Did you happen to catch the John Leonard piece that was released close to the Byatt? It was a nice antidote, I thought. > Also What have you to say to those downers who claim (and I am > becoming one I fear), that other writers are writing far superior > books? I think that there certainly are "better" books than Potter out there, for sure. But this is a special sort of cultural phenomenon. I could see a Chekhov play instead of watching "6 Feet Under", but I'd rather participate in a more culturally relevant experience. Besides, Peter Krause is hot. But I digress... To quote the charming Leonard piece: "But least persuasive of all are the nitpickers who disdain children's literature to begin with, which just means that they are tin-eared, tone deaf and born dumb. (Where do they think we begin to care about stories?) Or the furballs who would prefer that we read instead Tolkien, C. S. Lewis, Richard Adams, Enid Blyton, Roald Dahl or Philip Pullman. (As if we were choosing up for a secret society; as if we couldn't enjoy Hermione in the library while at the same time taking a bloodthirsty interest in Hazel the Warrior Rabbit.) And finally the world-weary and wart-afflicted who complain about the mediocre movies, the media hype, the marketing blitz, the embargo and maybe even the notion of a single mom becoming richer than the queen. (As if the filing of contrarian opinions weren't itself a standard component of media hype; as if Harry himself cares.) Me, I really liked standing in line at the first film with hundreds of talkative short people, all of whom had read the book. " For me, Potter doesn't have to be great literature. It's enormously engaging to a huge number of people who have all experienced balancing the heft of that book while turning its 800 plus pages. I'm more interested in why it works although I also find it fun to seek out the flints with a group of highly qualified obsessive sticklers. I for one am not the least bit scandalized by you posing these questions to the group. What better place to get much feedback? If you don't enjoy the books, or if you do enjoy them but are concerned that they aren't literary enough, put 'em down! Or read 'em and suffer through the guilt, I guess. Come to your own conclusions about whether they're worth your reader's gaze and act accordingly. You sound like you have some sort of aesthetic gun pointing at your head and you'll be damned forever if you do the wrong thing. I say: really, what difference does it make? madeyemood who has an incredibly disheartening summer cold. From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 10 20:08:54 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:08:54 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! (On Pretension) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76458 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wiley Willowsbough" wrote: > *sigh* > > I have to side with the people who feel criticizing the series is a > bit pretentious. For cripe's sake, people...this is young adult > literature, not Joyce or Tolkein or Hemmingway. I don't ever expect > Rowling to be brought up in a university literature course. Why is it pretentious to believe that children's books can both be aimed at children and have good prose, character development and well developed themes? IMHO many kid's books have achieved just that. I think POA did. It isn't the BEST I've read, but I think it good. But as it is... HP is being taught at least two universities. And of course MANY schools have Children's Literature courses quite legitimately IMHO. It is a valid thing to study. What makes a great book for children? Anne of Green Gables is a wonderful novel. (Of course it is debateable whether it is a kid's novel, but now most read it as children. I believe it would now be marketed as one - like HP.) I read it only a few years ago and I was charmed, moved and delighted. It is as good as any weepy dusty tome. So in that I think you are wrong. Children's books are worth studying and worth analysing seriously based on their own merits. Not all will be classics but that doesn't make them bad. Will the last book I read be a classic? Who knows? - It was still good even if it isn't Joyce or Hemingway. Just as OOTP may be a good book even if it is forgotten. But is it a good book? A book doesn't have to be a favourite or perfect to be good. > But as a teacher of pre-teens, I have seen the true "garbage" that > has come in and out of vogue over the years that these kids have > eaten up as "literature"...the Goosebumps series, the Animorphs > series, the Mary-Kate and Ashley series. All disposable reading, not > much better than reading a comic book. And the repetition you find > in some of these series is ridiculous, as they set up the plotlines > exactly the same way in each book (Animorphs the biggest culprit). So have I. But as a teacher of pre-teens, surely you have seen the other books? What do you teach your pre-teens? Or do they not deserve clean effective prose or insightfully written novels. I judge OOTP on its own merits. I think it fine for kids to read anything they want from comics to Dickens (some do...) but what I don't think we should do is believe that as long as they are reading they are ok. There is a difference. And it is important they read good work as well as the fun junk. So the question is OOTP (specifically) worth the praise it is getting? (Which is IMHO VERY high indeed.) Obviously you think so. Obviously I disagree. But let us talk about what is really being asked instead of just saying "Well it isn't as horrid as some of the junk out there", as if that would generally be a signal - This book is great! > Yes, we're adults, and we see things in an adult way. Sometimes, as > I lurk, I question how much we have dissected this canon, and the > arguments (and some quite passionate) that take place over it. But > agreed...who would collectively argue and dissect and cherish a true > piece of adult literature like this, except those who truly read and > enjoy 700 page novels written for adults. > > For many of these kids (and I would guess quite a high number of > adults), this is a first foray into metaphors and "flowerly > language". If it were written at a level of Joyce or Hemmingway, no > one would have ever read it. How about the level of Hodgson, Diana Wynne Jones, Lemony Snicket, Sellwen and dozens of others whose work I think we SHOULD be comparing with OOTP (adding whatever children's writers you enjoy...). Afterall if it gets kids reading it has served a purpose, but to paraphrase Hensher that is not the same thing as writing a good novel. It doesn't have to be Joyce, but is it as good as Robert Cormier's stuff? Personally I never notice flints unless they are really obvious. (Though I don't deride flint lovers and obsessives of all stripes - afterall that is one way of being a fan - complete focus and nitpicking is FUN for some. If you don't like it don't post about it. I personally like to wonder about prose and themes and characters.) But plotholes are just poor writing. Many kids IMHO might ask questions like "why didn't Sirius tell Harry to use the mirror when he spoke with him in the fire"? At the very least I ask it - and think it a reasonable question. Golly From sydenmill at msn.com Sun Aug 10 21:46:45 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:46:45 -0000 Subject: About Sirius Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76459 POA, ch. 22, pg. 427, American edition, Dumbledore speaking: "'You think the dead we loved ever truly leave us? You think that we don't recall them more clearly than ever in times of great trouble?'" Even though Dumbledore was referring to Harry's father, I think this could also be forehadowing that Sirius will be interacting with Harry in some way after OOP. Thoughts? Bohcoo From christin.gahnstrom at telia.com Sun Aug 10 20:37:50 2003 From: christin.gahnstrom at telia.com (cgahnstrm) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:37:50 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Dear Grownups... > > I have a question to ask of those here... And of course this > assignment is optional. I just want to know what all you (whom I am sure are intelligent insightful adults) have to say against me. I know not all people agree. Afterall I hate pineapples but liking > pineapples isn't bad... But hear me out and respond if you like... I think your critizism of OOTP has many valid points. I agree with some of them, and when I disagree, I can understand your view. Having read the book twice, I have found that in my opinion, the greatness in this novel lies in the psychological realism with which the characters are described. Harry, in my opinion, does what is logical for a boy that has gone through the horrors of a loveless home and the loss of a father figure. Neville's insecurity is explained by his grandmother constantly compairing him to his gifted father. And then there is The Potions Master. He has been bullied to the point where he has been damaged for life (or so it seems). In Harry, he sees the opportunity to get back at his tormentor. The wounds of his school years are still there, hence the rage when Harry goes into his memory. Also, in this book, it's no longer an easy task to tell good from evil. Dolores Umbridge means well, in her own twisted way, and James was less than perfect while in school. You say the book might be more appealing to children. I disagree. >From the comments from children I've read on the net, I get the feeling this book is in many aspects way above their heads. They can't understand Harry's mood changes and instead of seeing that Cho is suffering from depression they are just annoyed with her. The four previous novels were written so that children could understand and follow everything that happened. Now they're somewhat left behind, even though they can still enjoy the major plot. Christin ps No spell check on this lousy mac. I hope there aren't too many mistakes. From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Sun Aug 10 21:43:18 2003 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:43:18 -0000 Subject: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76461 Snape could be the "awful boy" and he goes over to the other side when Voldemort resolves to kill the Potters. Scene Snape/Sirius/Harry in PoA: I always thought that Snape warns DD about Voldemort's intention. "Sembei Grindelwald" From kai_z at operamail.com Sun Aug 10 21:53:27 2003 From: kai_z at operamail.com (mkaliz) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:53:27 -0000 Subject: If you are prepared, Severus- Question answered? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76462 Garrett wrote: > Snape was at H.W. and couldnt apperate, and Crouch Jr. is the one > whos most loyal. karakoff is the one who will be killed. Snape the > one who will pay That leaves Three. Three Unknowns.... Alternately, Snape could have noted the exact time when the Mark burned, then just left Hogwarts (to apparate) and used Dumbledore's time turner to get to the meeting on time. He might have been in the graveyard and V just didn't mention him by name and Harry didn't realize he was there. --kai From julwalker7614726 at aol.com Sun Aug 10 21:46:11 2003 From: julwalker7614726 at aol.com (ejom723) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:46:11 -0000 Subject: My Theory--Petunia?/That Boy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76463 Just a evil thought in my head, but what if that boy was Lucius! --Jules From yellows at aol.com Sun Aug 10 22:03:48 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:03:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Death Message-ID: <352F6268.0D3DC032.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76464 In a message dated 8/10/2003 5:33:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bohcoo writes: > POA, ch. 11, pg. 228, American Edition, Trelawney speaking: > "'I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine together, the first to rise will be the first to die.'" > > GOF, ch. 23, pg. 415-419, American Edition > "The House tables had vanished; instead there were about a hundred smaller, lantern-lit ones, each seating about a dozen people." > > (Reading through that section, we know that the judges and the champions with their partners are seated together at the top table: Dumbledore, Karkaroff, Bagman, Maxime, Percy, Krum & Hermoine, Harry & Parvati, Roger & Fleur, Cedric & Cho. Thirteen people.) > > "When the food had been consumed, Dumbledore stood up and asked the students to do the same." > > > Uh. Oh. Hooray! How exciting!!! :) Oh. Ahem. I would cry buckets to see DD die, honestly. It's just that I feel pretty confident we'll have to say goodbye to the wonderful man sometime in Book 7, and this is a little hint in favor of that theory. What else have we got (other than GoF's constant references to how old and tired he looks)? Actually, who wants to start a running list of hints for each character to die in the upcoming books? We know there will probably be more, so who's next? What has JKR already hinted at? Brief Chronicles From sydenmill at msn.com Sun Aug 10 22:23:40 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:23:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: <352F6268.0D3DC032.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > Hooray! How exciting!!! :) > Oh. Ahem. I would cry buckets to see DD die, honestly. It's just that I feel pretty confident we'll have to say goodbye to the wonderful man sometime in Book 7, and this is a little hint in favor of that theory. What else have we got (other than GoF's constant references to how old and tired he looks)? > Actually, who wants to start a running list of hints for each character to die in the upcoming books? We know there will probably be more, so who's next? What has JKR already hinted at? > > Brief Chronicles Bohcoo reply: O-o-h, how deliciously ghoulish! Well, Trelawney has always predicted Harry's pending gruesome death, which I happen to believe. I don't want Harry to die, I just have come to the conclusion that he will, near the end of book 7. (Not that I am a big fan of Trelawney's, I just think too much was made of her being an old fraud. I think she manages to nail some of the things she goes on about. The funny thing is, she doesn't know when she has nailed it. . . So, of course, neither do we.) Anyway. We have losts of references to Ron biting the early dust as well. Even he mentions it several times, the latest mention in OOP when he tells Harry he doesn't care if his tea leaves read, "Die, Ron, die!" I think there was a Death List started before OOP came out when we all were crazy to find out the death JKR mentioned in interviews. Perhaps we could just update that one with canon. One of the funniest posts I have ever seen on this subject came from Pippy right after OOP came out when she was explaining all the foreshadowing about Sirius being the one to die, making the statement that he all but had the words, "Dead Meat" tatooed on his forehead. Funny. So-o-o-o funny. Don't have the post number here but it is worth looking up. From subrosax at earthlink.net Sun Aug 10 22:33:04 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:33:04 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind In-Reply-To: <20030810171424.47843.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76466 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, A Featheringstonehaugh wrote: > > > ************************************************************ > > Oh, well said, Allyson. Thank you! > > > AF - (also looking forward to the next serving of HP mind candy and hoping its release doesn't conflict with my entry into the annual Philistines' Demolition Derby and Belching contest.) You are more than welcome AF! I plan to spend the rest of my Sunday afternoon eating pork rinds and watching professional wrestling on TV. In my underwear! I might even pop open a can of cheap domestic beer for good measure. Care for an Old Milwaukee, AF? We can have a hootenanny out behind my trailer! Everyone's invited! And by the way, there is one thing OoP has that those fancy, capitol "L" literature books don't have: Snape! I hope he comes to the hootenanny so I can git on up under his robes!! Allyson From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 10 22:36:11 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:36:11 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76467 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: Taking Karen's comment into consideration, Gryffindor had lost the previous 7 years, not 8 (a/o the beginning of PoA). So the last time they won was in 1986. (Just another thought to really confuse the issue: McGonagall says "out of the running" not "we haven't won." Would a 2nd place finish be considered in the running?) Which means that Charlie graduated in 1986, 3 years before Fred and George even started. Me(Bill): But does it say that Gryffindor won in Charlie's seventh year? As far as I know, we only know that Charlie was playing for Gryffindor the last time that they won. If Charlie became Seeker in his second year, and Gryffindor then strung together three consecutive Quidditch Cups, with Charlie performing well individually, but not reaching the Cup, his final three years, then he would have finished Hogwarts in 1989, finishing at Hogwarts just before the Twins started their first Year. It seems likely that the next year, a 19-year-old Charlie could train with the twins in preparation for their first season on the team - and drag a 10-year-old Ron in as well. This would make Charlie 9 years older than HRH, and 5 years older than Percy. Bill From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 22:38:15 2003 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 15:38:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind In-Reply-To: <1060542590.15894.25973.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030810223815.58486.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76468 Message: 23 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:11:14 -0000 From: "artcase" Subject: Re: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! My Dear Art, I feel obliged to respond to your recent post. You wrote in part: > I still stand by my insistence that GOF was grammatically a nightmare. AF: Indeed. Speaking of grammatical nightmares...... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" wrote: >but not reaching the Cup, his final > three years, then he would have finished Hogwarts in 1989, finishing > at Hogwarts just before the Twins started their first Year. > It's possible, but I don't think so. "We haven't won since Charlie left" implies to me that they won Charlie's last year. Or at the very least, his second to last year. If they didn't win his last three years, I don't think they'd connect winning to Charlie (no matter how good he was). It would mean they'd lost fully half of the years he played (which might make sense if it were the first 3 years he played, but not if it's the last three). Besides, I think it's highly likely (but admittedly not certain) that Oliver was on the team his second year and in PoA Oliver was acting as if he'd never been on a Cup-winning team. bibphile From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:16:43 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:16:43 -0000 Subject: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" In-Reply-To: <78E7CDFC.0750F96D.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76470 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: Perhaps she does have a questionable wizarding family past and could be a potential inmate at Azkaban if she breaks this rule, at least DD tells her so. Why else would she seem to know so little about the WW (or be able to feign ignorance about it), but still have evident knowledge of Azkaban? Harry was actively involved in the WW for a couple of years without knowing of Azkaban. > > Brief Chronicles I don't think DD would lie about something like this. What I think happened is Petunia knows a lot more that she has ever admitted to, but she is usually so controlled that she keeps it hidden. When Dudley is attacked she is so shaken that she forgot to control what she was saying. I'm not sure that she has kept in touch with DD. It's more likely that his howler reminded her about the blood protection and the agreement she made when she agreed to raise Harry. Ravenclaw Bookworm From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 23:19:57 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Portkeys / Harry apparating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030810231957.19002.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76471 Leb wrote: > I think he has spontaneously apparated before > without realizing it: > > "On the other hand, he'd gotten into terrible > trouble for being found > on the roof of the school kitchens. Dudley's gang > had been chasing > him as usual when, as much to Harry's surprise as > anyone else's, > there he was sitting on the chimney. The Dursleys > had received a very > angry letter from Harry's headmistress telling them > Harry had been > climbing school buildings. But all he'd tried to do > (as he shouted > at Uncle Vernon through the locked door of his > cupboard) was jump > behind the big trash cans outside the kitchen doors. > Harry supposed > that the wind must have caught him in mid-jump." > (SS pg 25 US) > > So, either he apparated or he was flying without a > broom. I'd go > with apparating! Buttercup: I was also hoping that Harry would show an advanced ability to apparate and start sooner than what was allowed by Wizard Laws. But if he did apparate before, don't you think he would've known? Is it in the 6th or 7th year that students learn? Or maybe it's in between, since Fred and George knew during the summer before their last year at Hogwarts. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 10 23:30:14 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:30:14 -0000 Subject: name of Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > Silmariel wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75829 : > > << It can't be a Basque name. I don't live there, but I hear and > read (not saying I understand) Basque enough to know there isn't a > syllable in Salazar matching Basque >> > > I'm having trouble finding a source to cite, but "Salazar" is > supposed to mean "old hall" or "old palace" with "old" being the > Basque word "zahar' or "zara' or something like that. I kept on looking and found some sources: SALAZAR Explicaci?n de los componentes / Osagaien azalpena: SALA-=SALA -CASA, PALACIO, CORTIJO -ZAR=ZAHAR -VIEJO Significado del apellido / Abizenaren esanahia: SALA ZAHARRA CASA O PALACIO VIEJO Localizaci?n del apellido / Abizenaren kokapena: BALMASEDA,GORDEXOLA,ORDU?A/BIZKAIA is what I got from: http://www.kaixo.com/euskaletxea/ and http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/S/salazar.html says (among other things): "Well this is what Jaime Kerexeta says in his Diccionario Onomastico y heraldico Vasco. The meaning: is sure that is a basque name; ZAR means old, and SALA is Palace, so te meaning is "The old Palace"." From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:43:13 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:43:13 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mongo62aa" > wrote: > >but not reaching the Cup, his final > > three years, then he would have finished Hogwarts in 1989, > finishing > > at Hogwarts just before the Twins started their first Year. > > > > It's possible, but I don't think so. "We haven't won since Charlie > left" implies to me that they won Charlie's last year. Or at the > very least, his second to last year. If they didn't win his last > three years, I don't think they'd connect winning to Charlie (no > matter how good he was). It would mean they'd lost fully half of > the years he played (which might make sense if it were the first 3 > years he played, but not if it's the last three). > > Besides, I think it's highly likely (but admittedly not certain) > that Oliver was on the team his second year and in PoA Oliver was > acting as if he'd never been on a Cup-winning team. > > bibphile I agreed that Charlie led a string of victories ending his final year. There's just something about the way it was written. Otherwise they would have said that it had been x-number of years since Gryffindor had won and not made a connection to Charlie. If I remember correctly, Oliver is the same year as Percy so he would have started 4 or 5 years after Charlie left. I saw Bill's post about Charlie being at Hogwarts from 78 to 86. I wonder if whoever did their calculations made the same mistake I made at first when subtracting 8 instead of 7 years from McGonagall's statement in PoA. And yes, JKR considers it acurate, but did she check every single detail? SHe has confused us before about facts. Whether or not it was 85 or 86, these still hold true: Charlie graduated before Percy (and therefore Oliver) and the younger Weasleys started, and there is a wide gap of 8 or 9 years between Charlie and Percy. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:59:18 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:59:18 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini (Slytherin boy) theory based on his first name. Another theoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "neith_seshat" wrote: > Hi all, Snip> > The theory: Blaise is the name of Merlin's tutor, who helped him to become the wizard he was, instead of an evil devilish wizard. I think it could make sense to name a child after Merlin's tutor. > What do you think? > > Neith It may sound corny, but given JKR's way of playing with names, could Blaise be the one to "blaze the way" for Slytherin? Ravenclaw Bookworm From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 00:17:06 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:17:06 -0700 Subject: Evanesco Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76477 Just reading the Order of the Phoenix chapter, and found that the evanesco charm was used to clear up parchments left over from the recent meeting... Snape uses it to empty cauldrons, and it is Seamus, I believe who uses it to empty a puke-filled pail. What does evanesco actually do? Does it move a substance or object to somewhere else or does it just transfigure it into air (in which case, I would think it's not permanent)? Thoughts? -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 00:17:32 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:17:32 -0000 Subject: Snape's Loyalties In-Reply-To: <20030729142439.87703.qmail@web40205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > --- jazmyn wrote: > > I think the point many people missed in the books is that > > Harry did not > > even TRY in learning occlumency. > > > It was less so in high school, but when I hit college and had to > get serious with my vocal training, failure was not an option. If I didn't have > a piece memorized when I was supposed to, or if I wasn't working > hard enough, he would end the lesson. End of discussion, come > back next week. > > Lisa G That's because (a) you wanted to learn and (b) you were older, in college and (c) paying for that education (ignoring all the threads about tuition at Hogwarts:-) - college is definately not tuition- free. Harry doesn't meet these criteria. Ravenclaw Bookworm From SnapesSlytherin at aol.com Mon Aug 11 00:26:24 2003 From: SnapesSlytherin at aol.com (SnapesSlytherin at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:26:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Loyalties Message-ID: <33.3c870a72.2c683cb0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76479 In a message dated 8/10/2003 8:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, navarro198 at hotmail.com writes: > That's because (a) you wanted to learn and (b) you were older, in > college and (c) paying for that education (ignoring all the threads > about tuition at Hogwarts:-) - college is definately not tuition- > free. Harry doesn't meet these criteria. > Ravenclaw Bookworm Who's fault is it that Harry didn't want to learn? Harry knew that he had to learn Occulmency and he chose not to. He chose to keep having the dreams. It's completely understandable for us teenagers not to want to do the things that authority figures tell us, but there's a major difference in situations. Harry knows that they're in the calm between two wars. He wasn't given the choice whether he wanted to be important to this or not, it's his destiny I suppose. Harry has had to grow up fast. I've said before that I don't think they're children anymore. Both Harry and Severus were at fault in this situation. It's no use trying to clear Harry of all blame and it's no use trying to say it wasn't partly Severus's fault (no matter how much I want to...). Harry and Severus both need to realize that there are more important things than their feelings for each other. ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 00:39:33 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:39:33 EDT Subject: The Original Order of the Phoenix and Arabella Figg Message-ID: <12c.2fae4079.2c683fc5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76480 A curious question about the original Order - did DD found it before or after the prophecy was made? We know it's a secret society against LV, but back then everyone knew LV was a bad guy and they were all fighting him, so why the necessity of creating this Order? This is what makes me think it was created after the prophecy, and maybe even after Lily and Neville gave birth, seeing as how Harry didn't note that they were pregnant in the picture Moody showed him. I know it's also possible it was just taken before they were pg, therefore before the prophecy. Along with this, anyone else wonder why a Squib, Arabella Figg, was part of the "old crowd" DD talked about in GoF? She may have been in the Order as well, but again, why? And what did she do? Was she planted in Harry's neighborhood only after he went to live there? And what further orders was she waiting for after Harry was attacked?? I don't have any answers here, though I do think McGonagall is in contact with her - remember how Harry saw her a 12 Gimmauld Place in a muggle dress? Why wear muggle clothes unless she was in a muggle area, meeting Arabella, perhaps? ~RSFJenny From EnsTren at aol.com Mon Aug 11 00:44:20 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 20:44:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! Message-ID: <1d1.eff1245.2c6840e4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76481 In a message dated 8/10/2003 8:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, evangelina839 at yahoo.se writes: > Again, I'm too uneducated to discuss quality of literature > convincingly, but I've always > found Rowling better than Tolkien. No, I have not read Tolkien in > english, and not all > of his books either, and yes, I admit that the older a book gets, the > harder it gets for > me to relate to it (I think I've read too many books with poor and/or > over pretentious > dialogue), but... when it comes to characterisation, Rowling is *way* > above Tolkien > IMO. I feel like I could read any piece of dialogue, just pulled > completely out of > context, and know which one of Rowling's characters who said it. To > me, that is really > impressive actually. Every single one of her creations have > individual ways of > speaking. I could never tell one speaker from another when reading > Tolkien. > As near as I have been able to tell, and I am a psyc major who had hopes to be an english major but sucks royally in foreign langueages which for some reason is a requirement for an ENGLISH major. *breath* as I was saying, near as I can tell Tolkien's works are WORLD driven. The characters are props. Look for descriptions of people in the books. The main characters. Legolas gets Blond, and bright-eyed and that's pretty much it. Oh, and he has a nice voice, and he talks to trees so much he sounds mildly scitzo. Did I mention that Almost ALL (namely the ones he actually mentions) elves are described as having a nice voice and being bright-eyed? JKR's stories are CHARACTER Driven. The odd thing is that while it is a common thing, to be character driven, JKR's works are more about the other characters than the Main character, who is the POV. This allows her to also make the story more world driven as well. Looking out a window, as it were. You can get the "Living" experiance that tolkien often gives people > But then, what you said about "living" the HP world, I completely > agree with. And > honestly, that matters more to me than mastery of language. I believe > that what you > have to say is more important than the way you say it. I always get > an image of > anything Rowling writes; Tolkien honestly confused me too much with > details I never > needed (such as the points of the compass - too little cross-country > running for me, I > guess). > I've always said that Tolkien's works are for people with little imagination. (meaning mental imaging via reading between the lines) I DON'T need to know every color of a blade of grass on a hill. I can imagine that for myself, thankyouverymuch. (Funny story: I sometimes read a book and when I'm called away I get really impatient because "The comercial is going to end!" And then I remember I'm reading a book.) The only thing worse is Moby Dick, which has an entire chapter on rope. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 11 00:56:55 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:56:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76482 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > POA, ch. 11, pg. 228, American Edition, Trelawney speaking: > "'I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! > Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine > together, the first to rise will be the first to die.'" > > > GOF, ch. 23, pg. 415-419, American Edition > "The House tables had vanished; instead there were about a hundred > smaller, lantern-lit ones, each seating about a dozen people." > > > (Reading through that section, we know that the judges and the > champions with their partners are seated together at the top table: > Dumbledore, Karkaroff, Bagman, Maxime, Percy, Krum & Hermoine, Harry > & Parvati, Roger & Fleur, Cedric & Cho. Thirteen people.) > > > "When the food had been consumed, Dumbledore stood up and asked the > students to do the same." > > > Uh. Oh. > Yes, but the first to die of that group of 13 was Cedric, and he wasn't the first to rise. Though it is interesting that 13 sat down at table, and one of them did die soon after. Wanda From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 11 01:34:21 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:34:21 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > I have consistently felt that while I like Harry Potter's universe, > OOTP is not a great or even good novel. (Trust me when I say I didn't > want to think this.) It is (in my opinion) dully written and filled > with hackneyed phrases. This hampers my ability to see beyond its > surface. It is undenyably repetative - harping on the same points > like Umbridge looking like a toad and clearing her throat. I don't > have my book here... (it was so expensive that it is making the > rounds with friends) but "hot on his heels" is hardly a phrase I > expect during one of the most dramatic scenes in the novel. And > Hensher of the Spectator was right "feathery cannonball" is truely > lamentable writing. Neither really funny nor terribly vivid. Also > she used a similar allusion with Errol before anyway. I entirely agree. I'm one of those readers who were shocked by the big dropoff in Rowling's work with OotP, and thought it read like someone else's work. Describing the alleyway where Harry had first "clapped eyes on" Sirius is embarrassingly bad - a highschool student wouldn't be able to get away with phraseology that trite. It makes me wonder if Rowling has always written so badly, but we never realized it until now because this is the first time she's been able to get a book in print without having to submit to an editor's demands. > > I will say I like things about OOTP (since I have irked people who > feel the need to hear the positive...). I think Rowling has talent - > no question. Whoever said Snape is great because he has a rough > interior to go with that gruff exterior was right... He is great. So > is Arthur Weasley. Sweet, good, a little eccentric. But > uncomplicatedly decent (in the best way of course). I also think that Rowling has talent. But in OotP she moved away from what she was really good at, and I fear that she is not going to return to her strengths. What I really enjoyed about the first 4 books was the *wittiness* most of all, along with the seemingly inexhaustible inventiveness. I loved the way she seemed to have so much energy, she could almost afford to throw away brilliant little strokes of cleverness, like the titles of books she kept coming up with. "Men Who Love Dragons Too Much", in GoF - that's just funny on so many levels, I still enjoy thinking about it. If Rowling's prose was uninspired in the first four books, I didn't notice because I was carried away on the thermal currents of her imagination. All that is gone in OotP. Instead, she seems to be labouring for heavy meaning and drama, and she's just not good enough to pull it off. OotP reminds me of the progress of many good sitcoms, like "MASH", which start off very funny, then somewhere along the line decide that making people laugh is a bit beneath them, and it's time to start dealing with *serious* issues, and improving people with moral lectures. Rowling hasn't started moralizing yet, but she does seem to have cast off her former role as entertainer in favour of something more exalted. I very much fear that she is going to try something that she is not fitted for - a lofty tale of sacrifice and redemption. Unfortunately, she is NOT Dante, or Milton, and in trying to reach too high, she is going to make a fool of herself. I'll keep an open mind about the remainder of the series, but if the final 3 books are a failure, there is no way Harry Potter will be considered literature even 20 years from now. I think they say in the theatre that in order to have a hit, you must have a good close to the first half, and a really good finale. A good first half and a lame conclusion won't succeed. It would be a great waste, because the first 4 books ARE good reading, but nobody will introduce their children to a series of books that they know will peter out in disappointment. Wanda > From butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net Mon Aug 11 02:01:56 2003 From: butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net (Wiley Willowsbough) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:01:56 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! (On Pretension) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > > Why is it pretentious to believe that children's books can both be > aimed at children and have good prose, character development and well > developed themes? IMHO many kid's books have achieved just that. I > think POA did. It isn't the BEST I've read, but I think it good. Wiley: I think, somehow, Clay...we're agreeing, but somehow sounding as if we are disagreeing. :-) When it comes to children's/young adult literature, I think that HP (and agreed, PoA in particular) is probably among the best current literature out there, aided and abedded in particular because it is so engaging to young people. I'm quite partial to Louis Sachar as a children's lit author, but when it comes to pure deep, long, serial-length book series, the quality of HP is definately up there. Certainly, I would recommend books like "Tom Sawyer" or "Alice in Wonderland", or more contemporaries like "Holes" or "Lemony Snicket", but most young people simply don't find those books overly engaging, or they just aren't as deeply written as HP. > >Clay: But as it is... HP is being taught at least two universities. And of > course MANY schools have Children's Literature courses quite > legitimately IMHO. It is a valid thing to study. What makes a great > book for children? Sorry for being so vague. I was meaning that HP generally wouldn't be taught in most adult literature courses on the basis of its own literature...it is usually more for the external issues surrounding it today: the craze, marketing, controversy, book banning, etc. Naturally, I would expect it to be in a Children's Lit class, as that is exactly what it is. > Clay: > > Not all will be classics but that doesn't make them bad. Will the > last book I read be a classic? Who knows? - It was still good even > if it isn't Joyce or Hemingway. Just as OOTP may be a good book even > if it is forgotten. But is it a good book? > > A book doesn't have to be a favourite or perfect to be good. Wiley: I guess my point is that I'm avoiding comparing these books to what some would consider the weathered classics of adult literature. Do I think OotP is fantastic literature? Overall, its pretty good. Is it as good as PoA or even GoF...I'm still undecided. However, what it has done for the "here and now" is continue the serial and the storylines, and like us adults, many kids are waiting on pins and needles for some of the same things we are...SHIPs, who will die, etc. In the current world of children's/young adult literature, I think it as high quality as you will find. Clay: > > So have I. But as a teacher of pre-teens, surely you have seen the > other books? What do you teach your pre-teens? Or do they not > deserve clean effective prose or insightfully written novels. Wiley: Huh? *Deserve* it? Trust me, Clay, don't believe for a moment that I am on some crusade to shield my students from good writing. That, in my opinion, Clay, was a little uncalled for. When I teach HP (which I only do during my summer school course), I bring it up exactly as it is presented...a well-written young adult book that is rich in concepts, ideas, and characters. The fact that I can work with 100 kids who have read all of the books allows me to work completly beyond comprehension activities and straight into extensions, synthesis, and other high-level skills that most teachers rarely have time to get to with a class. I can teach Anne of Green Gables (which I don't right now), but in the time it takes me to make sure they have all read the story (which most wouldn't choose to do in their leisure time, particularly a book like that), and get just through the comprehension activities, the opportunities for high-level skills are usually limited. I do work with many trade books in my class, most of which are Newberry Award winning books...and they are well-written and deeply insightful in plot. > Clay: > So the question is OOTP (specifically) worth the praise it is > getting? (Which is IMHO VERY high indeed.) Obviously you think so. > Obviously I disagree. But let us talk about what is really being > asked instead of just saying "Well it isn't as horrid as some of the > junk out there", as if that would generally be a signal - This book > is great! > Wiley: Here's where I think we're agreeing again. Do I think that OotP deserves high praise in terms of the series? Probably not. I think it is the weakest of the last three books, and was bugged at the change-up in eliminating the "red herrings" which were the trademarks of the first four books to the cheap "is THIS the person who will die???" throughout. However, in the world of children's/young adult literarure, it is still deserving of praise...where it lacked in continuing the storyline, it deepened characters through their actions and their feelings...not just telling us who they were and what they were up to. I wouldn't say a kid should read OotP above Anne of Green Gables or any other quality book. My point is, and continues to be, that the series is extremely high quality for a young adult book...and that attempting to qualify it with the same strategies people used in their college Lit classes is a bit unfair. > > > Clay: > How about the level of Hodgson, Diana Wynne Jones, Lemony Snicket, > Sellwen and dozens of others whose work I think we SHOULD be > comparing with OOTP (adding whatever children's writers you > enjoy...). Afterall if it gets kids reading it has served a purpose, > but to paraphrase Hensher that is not the same thing as writing a > good novel. > > It doesn't have to be Joyce, but is it as good as Robert Cormier's > stuff? Wiley: Who said it had to be compared to anyone? I love (and my students love) many authors. In my own class last year, I doubt I had more than four students who had actually read the HP books at all. I just find it odd that people who are on this list are finding it necessary to compare and catagorize this book among adult literarure. It just isn't adult literature...we're adults who enjoy a really well-crafted young adult book series. > Wiley, wondering why it doesn't bother him when people dis HP otherwise, only when people are trying to compare it to legendary adult literature. From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 02:04:57 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:04:57 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76485 > Bohcoo reply: > Anyway. We have losts of references to Ron biting the early dust as > well. Even he mentions it several times, the latest mention in OOP > when he tells Harry he doesn't care if his tea leaves read, "Die, > Ron, die!" > I don't think that both Ron and Harry will die, but my gut says that one of them will, and that when the other doesn't die, we will all go back and re-read the "clues" in classic Beatle-Hoax fashion and have a nice laugh. Has anyone started putting thier covers op to mirrors yet? With all of the talk about Harry's wand being in the wrong hand on the covers, it made me think that perhaps we are supposed to look at them in reverse.... Paul and J.K.R are laughing somewhere to themselves. ^v^Blyx^v^ From sleepingblyx at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 02:33:33 2003 From: sleepingblyx at yahoo.com (sleepingblyx) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:33:33 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76487 > It makes me wonder if Rowling has always written so badly, but we > never realized it until now because this is the first time she's > been able to get a book in print without having to submit to an > editor's demands. > Wanda > In any of the novels, whenever I read, "He yelled at her, angrilly" or ",abruptly" or ",shockingly" or anything else in that sense for the hundreth time, I can't help but roll my eyes, mockingly. As for the tone and theme of the series-- I think she has always known where the books are going and where they will go. She has been scribbling down what will happen in the latter books since she was writing the first one-- I think that OoP was a needed transitionary piece-- more of an explanation to get from point a to point b. "Filler", if you will. I have a notion that on the next book, she will be sure of her direction and wont be able to write it fast enough. If she could have witten a short story to cover the death of Sirius, or to have condensed year five into year four, then possibly she would have. I think the HP books will remain a big statement in childrens lit-- they are, after all, reguarded as the books that got kids to read again. Times are difficult in the world, and the culture embraces escapist books and such in those times. I don't think it is by accident that HP, Tolkien, and the like are what is "in" right now. Perhaps things _are_ cyclicle-- after HP fades from mainstream for a while, and becomes the novels of "geeks," kids, and "fanatsy buffs", perhaps something else will happen that will throw the world back into a love afair with Mr. Potter-- and not a lot of novels, however great or horrible, get that second life. ^v^Blyx^v^ From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 02:57:54 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:57:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's Loyalties In-Reply-To: <33.3c870a72.2c683cb0@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76488 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, SnapesSlytherin at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/10/2003 8:18:59 PM Eastern Standard Time, > navarro198 at h... writes: > > > That's because (a) you wanted to learn and (b) you were older, in > > college and (c) paying for that education (ignoring all the threads > > about tuition at Hogwarts:-) - college is definately not tuition- > > free. Harry doesn't meet these criteria. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > > Who's fault is it that Harry didn't want to learn? Harry knew that he had to > learn Occulmency and he chose not to. He chose to keep having the dreams. > It's completely understandable for us teenagers not to want to do the things > that authority figures tell us, but there's a major difference in situations. > Harry knows that they're in the calm between two wars. He wasn't given the > choice whether he wanted to be important to this or not, it's his destiny I > suppose. Harry has had to grow up fast. I've said before that I don't think > they're children anymore. > > Both Harry and Severus were at fault in this situation. It's no use trying > to clear Harry of all blame and it's no use trying to say it wasn't partly > Severus's fault (no matter how much I want to...). Harry and Severus both need to > realize that there are more important things than their feelings for each > other. > > ~*~*~Oryomai~*~*~ I agree with all of your comments. My comments were in response to Lisa G's statement about being required to study or risk having the class ended early (Message 73888). If Snape had responded the way Lisa's professor had, Harry would have been happy about it. My point was that she did the work because she wanted to learn, and had other incentives to encourage her to do the necessary work. Harry didn't want to learn and had no real incentives to get him to do it. Ravenclaw Bookworm From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 03:02:43 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:02:43 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > Ravenclaw Bookworm: If you think in terms of school years, it makes sense. Gryffindor won the Q-Cup in June 1985, the year Charlie graduated. In June 1986, '87, '88, etc, through June 1993, they did not win. McGonagall's statement was made in the fall of 1993 which is school year 1994. Geoff: I think we're agreeing. June 86 to June 93 is eight Junes. Yes, but that would place June 93 as the eighth loss, when she's saying that this would be the either year. Therefore school years 87- 93 makes 7 years, with 93/94 being the eighth year. This makes Charlie 12 years older, thirteen years older than Ginny. This means that Charlie was already at Hogwarts when Ginny was born, and Graduated when she was 4. If she has wanted to go to Hogwarts since Charlie was there, she has wanted to go since she was 3 or 4 years old. That's plausible as an age when children start thinking about what they want to do when the grow up. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 03:06:15 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:06:15 -0000 Subject: The Original Order of the Phoenix and Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <12c.2fae4079.2c683fc5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76490 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > A curious question about the original Order - did DD found it before or after > the prophecy was made? We know it's a secret society against LV, but back > then everyone knew LV was a bad guy and they were all fighting him, so why the > necessity of creating this Order? > ~RSFJenny Voldemort seemed to be picking people off one at a time and everyone was terrified. I think it was Arthur Weasley who said (scene after the Dark Mark at the QWC?) that no one would talk to others because no one knew who to trust. So the order was formed around a small core of people to coordinate the defense against Voldemort. Think of Iraq today. "Everyone" knew Hussein was a bad guy, but anyone who stood up to him was killed or otherwise disappeared. (No, I'm not trying to start a political debate here :0) Ravenclaw Bookworm From bibphile at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 03:09:01 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:09:01 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76491 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: >If I remember correctly, Oliver is the same year as Percy so he would have started 4 or 5 years after Charlie left. > 4 or 5 years? I thought Percy and Oliver would started school one year after Charlie left (I mean a 1 year gap, not the year after Charlie finished). Using the 8 year gap, (which I think you said you agree with) Oliver probably would have started the quidditch team 3- 4 years after Charlie left. (Depending on if he made the team his 2nd or 3rd year.) Am I messing up somewhere? bibphile From jendiangelo at cox.net Mon Aug 11 03:12:30 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:12:30 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: <20030808114543.43412.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76492 Buttercup wrote: > I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > is plausible. She goes from being pretty much > unnoticeable to being almost a female version of > Harry. > > I do have one problem with her though. She switches > boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then > Dean Thomas. Now me (acciosirius Jen): I had questions about that at first, too. But then, I remembered that this is from Harry's point of view and he even says when they're in Hogsmeade something about how she never used to talk in front of him. I just think that she's simply now on Harry's radar as a friend, and not just Ron's little sister. And now that she's over her little girl crush, she's really coming into her own around Harry. Also, I don't think that she switches boyfriends too quickly, if, in fact, she's now actually dating Dean. Personally, when I read it, I felt that she just said Dean's name to get a rise out of Ron. I don't necessarily think that she's actually dating him. I would think that Ron and Dean are close enough that Dean would say something to Ron about it. Just my two knuts... acciosirius Jen From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 03:13:32 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:13:32 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > Yes, but that would place June 93 as the eighth loss, when she's > saying that this would be the either year. Therefore school years 87- > 93 makes 7 years, with 93/94 being the eighth year. This makes > Charlie 12 years older, thirteen years older than Ginny. This means > that Charlie was already at Hogwarts when Ginny was born, and > Graduated when she was 4. If she has wanted to go to Hogwarts since > Charlie was there, she has wanted to go since she was 3 or 4 years > old. That's plausible as an age when children start thinking about > what they want to do when the grow up. Ginny said she had wanted to go to Hogwarts since *Bill* was there. But you're right. Depending on how much older Bill is than Charlie, they both would have been in school when Ginny was born. My Message 76426 gives a lot more detail about the timeline I calculated. Bill isn't on the timeline, but AFIK there is no canon to calculate his age other than he is older than Charlie. My guess is 1-2 years difference, but that is just a guess. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 03:17:34 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:17:34 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76494 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > >If I remember correctly, Oliver is the same year as Percy so he > would have started 4 or 5 years after Charlie left. > > > > 4 or 5 years? I thought Percy and Oliver would started school one > year after Charlie left (I mean a 1 year gap, not the year after > Charlie finished). Using the 8 year gap, (which I think you said you > agree with) Oliver probably would have started the quidditch team 3- > 4 years after Charlie left. (Depending on if he made the team his > 2nd or 3rd year.) > > Am I messing up somewhere? > > bibphile You're right. My goof. I had so many dates running through my head by the time I wrote that I confused Percy and Ron. Charlie graduated in either 85 or 86. Percy and Oliver started in 87. Ravenclaw Bookworm From kkearney at students.miami.edu Mon Aug 11 03:29:33 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:29:33 -0000 Subject: The Original Order of the Phoenix and Arabella Figg In-Reply-To: <12c.2fae4079.2c683fc5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76495 RSFJenny asked: > A curious question about the original Order - did DD found it before or after > the prophecy was made? We know it's a secret society against LV, but back > then everyone knew LV was a bad guy and they were all fighting him, so why the > necessity of creating this Order?... > Along with this, anyone else wonder why a Squib, Arabella Figg, was part of > the "old crowd" DD talked about in GoF? >From the way the first war has been described, "everyone" was not fighting Lord Voldemort. That was the problem; Lord Voldemort had managed to gather quite a following before he began enacting his reign of terror. I have no doubt that, the same as in this second war, the Ministry of Magic was probably very slow to react to the threat. By the time they took action, many Ministry workers were already conspiring with Voldemort. My theory on the original Order is that Dumbledore saw the chaos and decided to take matter into his own hands. You ask why Arabella Figg, a Squib, was included in his elite group. Honestly, why were any of the members included? Alastor Moody (skilled Auror but questionable sanity), Arabella Figg (Squib), James Potter, Sirius Black, Peter Pettigrew (just graduated, little or no experience), Remus Lupin (same, plus a werewolf), Severus Snape (young, plus ex-DE), Rubeus Hagrid (not allowed to do magic, half-giant)...they all have something against them. Even the respectable members (as far as we know), such as Frank and Alice Longbottom (Aurors but pretty young, probably little influence at the Ministry) and Minerva McGonagall (Hogwarts professor), are far from the ideal candidates for such a job. However, they were all people Dumbledore knew very well. His close friends and colleagues, students he had watched closely growing up, etc. He trusted them all completely. Given the choice between an incredibly skilled witch or wizard with questionable loyalties and motivations, and a much less skilled witch/wizard/squib who Dumbledore was certain he could count on, Dumbledore chose the latter. And, all things considered, he seems to have gotten pretty good results out of such a strange group. -Corinth From butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net Mon Aug 11 03:31:46 2003 From: butsiriuslyfolks at charter.net (Wiley Willowsbough) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:31:46 -0000 Subject: Hermione Animagi - Harry POV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76496 One thing I was looking forward to in OotP was whether or not Harry and the others would begin studying to become animagi. I am assuming that since Harry hasn't begun studies in his fifth year, he probably will not become an animagi before he graduates, as Sirius and James were clever and it took them several years to accomplish animagi-ism. Harry is definately strong in DADA, but he isn't as strong in transfiguration. However, while I think Harry and Ron are definately out of animagi- ism before graduating, it would not be beyond JKR to have had Hermione privately studying to become an animagi on her own, or under Professor McGonagall's instruction. Of course, if Hermione were studying on her own, she'd be completely breaking major laws, as she's very aware of the trouble Skeeter would be in if she blabbed. So, that leaves private lessons with McGonogall, who has previously tended to Hermione's remarkable abilities with perhaps adventurous means ( a time-turner ). Since the story is written from Harry's POV, there is much we don't know going on in the lives of other characters until it is presented to Harry (the whole Ginny- personality-change is a great example of that). I'm HOPING that JKR returns to her writing style of the previous four books and utilizes the surprise twists at the end of her stories (with all the red herrings along the way), and I think that Hermione being an animagi (or animagi-in-training) would be an interesting twist. Wiley o' Ravenclaw From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 04:20:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 04:20:23 -0000 Subject: Portkeys / Harry apparating In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76497 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > ***snip*** > > Since the book is from Harry's point of view, I don't think we > > will see that until Harry starts taking Apparation lessons, or > > perhaps, in the heat of the moment, we see him spontaniously > > apparate. > > > > Just a few thoughts. > > > > bboy_mn > > > I think he has spontaneously apparated before without realizing it: > > "On the other hand, he'd gotten into terrible trouble for being > found on the roof of the school kitchens. ...edited... ." (SS pg > 25 US) > > So, either he apparated or he was flying without a broom. I'd go > with apparating! > > leb bboy_mn: True, but WE didn't get to SEE it. It was related to us as an incidental second-hand account. I need to see it from inside Harry's head. I need to know the details. Is there a sense of movement throught time and space like there is with Floo and Portkey travel or is it instant? What are the parameters that must be allowed for? What are the potential dangers in term of the parameters? etc... We won't know what it's like to apparate until Harry tries it in the book. Just a thought. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 04:29:36 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 21:29:36 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione Animagi - Harry POV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <27207438145.20030810212936@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76498 Hi, Sunday, August 10, 2003, 8:31:46 PM, Wiley wrote: > and I think that Hermione being > an animagi (or animagi-in-training) would be an interesting twist. Actually, to me it would feel like a bit much . Hermione is already doing almost more than Harry, and one more talent would just make me roll my eyes and think Hermione is really turning into a Mary Sue. In fact, I'd find it a lot more interesting to see Hermione fail at something, and how she'd cope with this. And not everyone in the WW world tries to become an animagus, in fact it's supposed to be extremely rare. These are just my feelings, of course. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 11 04:48:18 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:48:18 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizengamot References: Message-ID: <3F372012.3020900@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76499 miss_america_03 wrote: > How do you pronounce "wizengamot" 'Wizengamot' is evidently a play on the Old English 'witenagemot', meaning 'meeting of wise men' or 'national council' (according to Clark-Hall). That word can be broken into 'witena', evidently the genitive plural of 'wite' or 'wita', meaning wise man or councilor (cf. modern 'wit'), and 'gemot', meaning 'meeting' (the 'ge-' is a prefix). Although it does not appear in Clark-Hall, 'witan', meaning member of the council, does appear in the OED, but not before 1807. If that form did exist, the formation of the genitive plural would be more regular, but I guess it is really a hypothetical form. So 'wizengamot' likely should be given Old English pronunciation based on that word. In that case: w should be w, not v as in German i should be short, as in sit z should probably be as in Modern English, as I don't think Old English had z e should be the schwa, as in the last syllable of 'china' n should be as in Modern English g should be hard, as in 'get' a should be the schwa m should be as in Modern English o should be as in German 'wohl', or in English 'so', but it is a pure vowel, not a diphthong t should be as in Modern English Syllabification should be wi-z en-ga-mot, although I'm not absolutely certain about whether the z should be in the first or second syllable. Primary stress should be on the first syllable, with a secondary stress on the last. The middle two should be unstressed. As a side note, 'wizen' is a verb meaning to shrivel, so 'wizengamot' could be a pun meaning meeting of shrivelled up old men'. From EnsTren at aol.com Mon Aug 11 06:22:40 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:22:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Food /butterbeer in wizarding world Message-ID: <15c.22366cc1.2c689030@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76500 In a message dated 8/10/2003 3:06:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, cathio2002 at yahoo.com writes: > And what about butterbeer--letting kids drink an > alcoholic drink at such a young age is a good way to > start their lives of alcoholism. Imagine what Winky's > liver looks like. > > ===== > Buttercup I honestly don't mean to be rude, but I laughed when I read this. Please check some of the alcohalic rates in europe, like in Belgium (drinking age 16, served at schools for lunch and dinner, children exposed to it at about 10, strict laws only apply to drunk driving) compared to the US, (age 21) Guess what? We have about 6 times the amount of alcohalics and drug users than belguim. In Percentages. And Butterbeer, as has been mentioned, if it's alcohalic at all, most likely has very low alcohalic content, like certain deserts. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 06:26:14 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:26:14 -0700 Subject: FILK - "Gee, Professor Umbridge" Message-ID: <410-22003811162614977@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76501 "Gee, Professor Umbridge" An OoP "Hogwarts Story" filk to "Gee, Officer Krupke" from the movie "West Side Story." Dedicated to Josh, for making me laugh *really, really* hard today with a MoM memo. (Scene: The Room of Requirement, at the end of a training session for Dumbledore's Army. HARRY, HERMIONE, RON, DEAN and CHO start clowning around, while the other members of the DA watch and laugh). HERMIONE (spoken, imitating Dolores Umbridge) Hey, you! HARRY (spoken) Me, Professor Umbridge? HERMIONE (spoken, as Umbridge) Yeah, you! Gimme one good reason For not givin' you detention and makin' you write lines, ya punk. HARRY (sings) Dear Inquisitor Umbridge, Ya gotta understand, I know you think I'm garbage, And punishments you've planned. But Death Eaters are coming, Lord Voldemort is back! Jumpin' Jarveys, that's why I'm so wack! ALL Gee, Professor Umbridge, don't push him too far, It's really not his fault he's got that terrible scar. He's not a big liar, Although he's uncouth. We swear, he's telling you the truth! HARRY It's the truth! ALL It's the truth, it's the truth, It's the honest truth. Yes, the Dark Lord's back now is the truth! HERMIONE (as Umbridge) Thats a touchin good story. HARRY Lemme tell it to the world! HERMIONE (as Umbridge) Just tell it to Fudge. HARRY (to RON) Dear kindly Fudge, your Honor, My scar's been burning bad At night my dreams are awful, My classmates think I'm mad. You really must believe me, Lord Voldemort is near! Holy Horklumps, Soon he will appear! RON (imitating Cornelius Fudge) Right! Professor Umbridge, youre really a square; This boy dont need my help, He needs an Occulmens' care! His scar makes him crazy and very perturbed, Hes rather magically disturbed. HARRY Im disturbed! ALL He's disturbed, he's disturbed, He's the most disturbed, Like he's rather magically disturbed. RON (spoken, as Fudge) Oyez, Oyez! In the opinion Of the Ministry, this child is Depraved on account he aint had proper wizard training. HARRY (spoken) Hey, Im insane on account I ain't been trained! RON (spoken as Fudge) So take him to Professor Snape. HARRY (sings to Dean) Dear kindly Potions' Master, The Dursleys both are jerks. The press tells lies about me, Which really, really hurts. My classmates think I'm mental, And you think I'm a brat. Poundin' Puffskeins, That's why I'm a prat. DEAN (as Snape) Oi! Professor Umbridge, it's really a crime! This boy won't even practice. He's just wasting my time! He doesn't respect me, he's just like his dad. He's just congenitally bad! HARRY I am bad! ALL He is bad, he is bad, He is bad, bad, bad Yes, that Harry's bad just like his dad! DEAN (speaks as Snape) In my opinion, this child does not need To learn Occlumency at all. All his problems could be cured by time in a loving home. HARRY (spoken) Hey, I need a loving home! DEAN (spoken as Snape) So take him to the Dursleys! HARRY (sings to CHO) Dear kindly Aunt Petunia, Dementors just showed up. When they went after Dudley, I said, "Keep your mouth shut." I stopped them with Patronus, And that's why we weren't caught, Growlin' Giiffins, This was not my fault. CHO (as Aunt Petunia) Eek! Professor Umbridge, youve done it again. This boy dont my care, he needs Time in Azkaban! It aint just a question of misunderstood; Magical blood makes him no good! HARRY Im no good! ALL He's no good, he's no good, He's no earthly good. All that magic makes him no damn good! DEAN: The trouble is hes cheeky. RON: The trouble is that scar! CHO: The trouble is hes creepy! RON: His lying's gone too far! DEAN The trouble is hes crazy. CHO His antics can't be topped! ALL Umbridge, that boy really must be stopped! Gee, Professor Umbridge Start doing your job. Cause Harry causes trouble When his scar starts to throb. Gee, Professor Umbridge, What are you to do? Gee, Professor Umbridge, Quill you! :-) Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 06:33:01 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:33:01 -0000 Subject: good!Slyth/3sistersAge/Luna:likeDD/Salazar/SecretKeeper/Bode/Lit/Flat/b-beer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76502 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Geoff wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76390 : > > << than get involved in themes which mirror real life - family rows, > affairs, terrorist violence etc. Escapist >> > > The Potter oeuvre may be Escapism, but surely it DOES involved > terrorist violence and family rows. (My own personal feeling is that > JKR is disappointedd by people who still think the series is escapism > after the end of GoF.) > Yes, but it's not family rows and terrorism as we know it Jim. I can' quite put it into words. The world of HP is not squeaky clean. It has baddies, it has horror and so on. So does Lord of the Rings. So does Narnia. But it is a different perception of these to what we get in "kitchen sink" dramas, soaps and violent films. In books like thee, there is often a new surprise round every corner. You are not suddenyl going to get a flying car in "Neighbours" or a Threstral in a gangster film. Am I getting over what I'm trying to say? Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 06:36:12 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:36:12 -0000 Subject: name of Salazar In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76503 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" > wrote: > > > > Silmariel wrote in > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75829 : > > > > << It can't be a Basque name. I don't live there, but I hear and > > read (not saying I understand) Basque enough to know there isn't a > > syllable in Salazar matching Basque >> > > > I have seen it commented on somewhere that Salazar was, of course, the surname of the erstwhile dictator of Portugal from 1933-68. Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 06:49:16 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:49:16 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: <1d1.eff1245.2c6840e4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76504 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, EnsTren at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/10/2003 8:39:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > evangelina839 at y... writes: > > > Again, I'm too uneducated to discuss quality of literature > > convincingly, but I've always > > found Rowling better than Tolkien. No, I have not read Tolkien in > > english, and not all > > of his books either, and yes, I admit that the older a book gets, the > > harder it gets for > > me to relate to it (I think I've read too many books with poor and/or > > over pretentious > > dialogue), but... when it comes to characterisation, Rowling is *way* > > above Tolkien > > IMO. I feel like I could read any piece of dialogue, just pulled > > completely out of > > context, and know which one of Rowling's characters who said it. To > > me, that is really > > impressive actually. I've been able to do that with Tolkien for years. One of my friends used to occasioanlly and without warning throw a Tolkien quote at me and challenge me to identify it. Nowadays, I'm not quite as good as I was but.... > as I was saying, near as I can tell Tolkien's works are WORLD driven. The > characters are props. Look for descriptions of people in the books. The main > characters. Legolas gets Blond, and bright-eyed and that's pretty much it. > Oh, and he has a nice voice, and he talks to trees so much he sounds mildly > scitzo. > > Did I mention that Almost ALL (namely the ones he actually mentions) elves > are described as having a nice voice and being bright-eyed? > That is patronising to the elves. Legolas is a lot more than that. All the peoples of LOTR are fleshed out with their own characteristics, specch patterns, idiocyncracies etc. > > I've always said that Tolkien's works are for people with little imagination. > (meaning mental imaging via reading between the lines) I DON'T need to know > every color of a blade of grass on a hill. Thanks for nothing. I read a lot between the lines of Tolkien. I read a lot between the lines of Harry Potter. I hugely enjoy thinking along the lines of "What went on after this event?" "Why did Ron react like that?" "Suppose Eowyn hadn't done that?" Tolkien sets the scene with his word pictures. Therefore, his climaxes build up more steadily. Jo Rowling gets stuck in sooner. But isn't that a feature of so-called "children's" literature? I can appreciate both authors - they are both great to read but as I said in an earlier posting, their style etc. is very different. So what. Would we want every author to write in the style of Shakespeare, Tolstoy, CS Lewis et al? Geoff From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 11 08:14:37 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:14:37 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > POA, ch. 11, pg. 228, American Edition, Trelawney speaking: > "'I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! > Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine > together, the first to rise will be the first to die.'" > > > GOF, ch. 23, pg. 415-419, American Edition > "The House tables had vanished; instead there were about a hundred > smaller, lantern-lit ones, each seating about a dozen people." > > > (Reading through that section, we know that the judges and the > champions with their partners are seated together at the top table: > Dumbledore, Karkaroff, Bagman, Maxime, Percy, Krum & Hermoine, Harry > & Parvati, Roger & Fleur, Cedric & Cho. Thirteen people.) > > > "When the food had been consumed, Dumbledore stood up and asked the > students to do the same." > > > Uh. Oh. > > Bohcoo While I am pretty sure Dumbledore will die in book 6 or 7, the first to die out of these people was Cedric Diggory. But there were 13 people on the table when Harry first ate with the OOTP (Harry, Ron, Hermione, Molly, Arthur, Fred, George, Ginny, Sirius, Lupin,Tonks, Mundungus Fletcher and Bill) and the first to rise was indeed Sirius. Hickengruendler From vheggie at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 08:30:19 2003 From: vheggie at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vanessa=20Heggie?=) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:30:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: OoP, Neville & Harry and their 'connection' - foreshadowing In-Reply-To: <1060532466.4746.80218.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030811083019.98070.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76506 Ooh, now we have three connections 1) my original comment about Harrys choice of secret identity on the night bus 2) Annemehr said: >Yes, there is at least one. In GoF, Ch. 31, after Harry had seen >the trial of the DEs who had tortured the Longbottoms he is lying >awake in bed relating Neville's plight to his own. 3) and Julie/farmcatnow said >There seem to be A LOT of Harry/Neville references now that I am re- >reading the books. One that strikes me (because I am 1/2 way through >PoA) When he is worried about quiddich, Harry has a dream where he >forgot to go to the game and they replaced him with Neville. A fourth, and one which may be very significant, is that the sorting hat also took a long time to deal with Neville, in PS, just as it did with Harry. Perhaps we should gather these somewhere... Vanessa ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From patientx3 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 08:54:27 2003 From: patientx3 at aol.com (HunterGreen) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:54:27 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumenc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76507 > Donna wrote: > > The more I read these discussions, the more I'm convinced Snape left > > the Pensieve out on purpose. [snip] > > He may have been hoping that Harry > > would look into the pensieve and so chose the best memory that would > > put James in the worst possible light. Knowing what Harry went > > through, Snape would have a better idea of what would deflate Harry's > > worship of his father. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > Me: I think Snape would have LOVED to show Harry that James was a > pillock, EXCEPT if it involved Harry also seeing his scary Potions > Master helpless, humiliated, out-gunned, and literally with his pants > down. It just seems out of character for him to let anyone see him > being weak. > > I think that's why this is Snape's 'worst' memory-- it's the worst one > for Harry to see. No matter what dreadful things we could have seen > from his Death Eater days, Snape knows that they wouldn't change > Harry's opinion of him, really. Snape doesn't care if people think > he's a bastard, so long as they think he's a scary bastard. To > witness Snape being weak and an object of pity, that's a different > kettle of fish altogether. In Snape's emotionally crippled world > view, that wouldn't arouse someone's compassion; it would just make > him vulnerable prey. > > IMO, Snape would have assumed that Harry would have been on his > father's side in that scene-- that he would have thought it was > hilarious to see his dad getting one over on ol' Snape. I've always interpreted Snape's reaction in this scene as embarassment. If you look closely at the way he reacts when he pulls Harry out he seems like that was the last thing he wanted *Harry* (or anyone else really) to see (specifically him "bellowing" that Harry not tell anyone about what he saw). Embarassment appears to be the reason he stopped the lessons as well, judging by his reaction I doubt he wanted to face Harry after that. I agree that Snape assumed Harry was be on his father's side, from day one Snape has had a problem separating Harry from James (even with his knowledge of Harry's upbringing). > Plus, his anger was absolutely genuine, IMO. If he left the Pensive > out to hurt Harry, I think he would have wandered in and gloated, not > grabbed him and thrown him to the floor. Why would he hide his > triumph? It would be more Snapey, I think, for him to say, "So, you > fell for my little trap. How predictable you are." Not only that, but he didn't really have time to orchestrate a trap (unless he planned something out with Draco), he leaves in sort of a rush, its not like he excused himself to go to the bathroom in the middle of the lesson. -HG From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 09:12:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:12:02 -0000 Subject: Re-reading In-Reply-To: <001e01c35f6e$c452ae20$de516751@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > I re-read PS/SS this weekend and picked up on a couple of points > which hadn't stuck in my mind before - wondered what others thought > about them? > > 1. Snape's worst memory > > Chapter 16. It's a sunny day, and the exams are over. HRH go looking > for Dumbledore and don't find him. > bboy_mn: No comment. But I will add, I don't think the memory in OotP was Snape's worst memory. Remember he put several in the Pensieve. But it was the memory that most moved the plot forward. Harry now has empathy for Snape. He understands that his Dad, James, wasn't a saint. So I think the intended selection process of the particular memory from the Pensieve was suppose to appear random, but as literary fate would have it, it was randomly the one that worked best in the story. I think Snape probably has close to seven years of treatment very similar to that one memory. > > 2. Dead Weasleys > > Chapter 12. It snows > > "The lake froze solid and the Weasley twins were punished for > bewitching several snowballs so that they followed Quirrell around, > bouncing off the back of his turban" > > Ouch. Voldemort's reaction to being snowballed isn't recorded, but I > suspect he wasn't unduly happy about it. > bboy_mn: If Quirrel wasn't to fussed about it, why should Volemort be? There was nothing to stop Quirrel or to stop Voldemort from forcing Quirrel to turn around and give the Weasley brothers a month of detentions. So, again, if Quirrel doesn't react, then I think it's because he sees no need to react, and the extension of that is that Voldemort didn't react either. I think Voldemort consistently has more important things on his mind than a few playful snowballs. > > 3. Big Hogwarts? Big Hufflepuff? > > Chapter 7. The sorting process. Of the students whose house is given > here, ... > 3 Hufflepuff (Abbott, Bones, Finch-Fletchley), > 3 Ravenclaw (Boot, Brocklehurst, Turpin), > 3 for Slytherin (Bulstrode, Malfoy, Zabini), > 6 for Gryffindor (Brown, Finnegan, Granger, Longbottom, Potter, > Weasley). > > It's not conclusive, but it sounds as if JKR is trying to emphasise > that the houses are roughly equal ... bboy_mn: No, I think what JKR is doing is introducing characters. We have to make a distinction between 'students' and 'student characters'. Students are all those nameless faceless people who are milling around in the background. Student characters are students who have a presents in the story, a presents in that they are named, a presents in the form of spoken lines, or lines being spoken about them, or reaction 'shots'. Many people use the list of Students from JKR personal note book as an indication of how many students are in the various houses and therefore, in the school, but again, the list doesn't define all the students; it defines all the characters. Also, by my analysis of the House personality types relative to size; I say that Slytherin and Griffindor are in the minority, Ravenclaw is in the middle, and Hufflepuff is the majority. (illustration: 15% Gryf, 15% Slyth, 30% Rav, 40% Huff) There are a lot of smart people in the world, and there are a lot of ordinary people in the world, but not that many who a cunning, ambitious, and ruthless, and not that many that are outstandingly brave. > > :Later in the same chapter > > "Percy directed the girls through one dooe to their dormitory and > the boys through another" > > The singular is used in both cases. ...edited... > bboy_mn: Just want to point out that in Europe, 'dormitory' refers to single student living space; a room. For example, the room with Harry, Ron, Neville, Dean, and Seamus is a dormitory, but the residence hall, Gryffindor Tower, is not a dormitory. Frequently, in the US, dormitory and residence hall are used interchangable. (You probably already know that) So, in the examply you cite, Percy is directing them to a stairway that will take the students to the single room to which they have been assigned. Certainly, that spiral stair way, in general, leads to dormitories; the 1st year's dorm, the 2nd year's dorm, 3rd year's dorm, etc.... But in the example you cited, it refers to one boy's room and one girl's room. > 4. Wand Cores > > Chapter 5. Ollivander talks about production techniques > > "We use unicorn hairs, phoenix tail feathers and the heartstrings of > dragons" > > It doesn't sound like he has any problems with sourcing phoenix > feathers for wands... > > Cheers > > Ffred bboy_mn: Well, if you've been around for a while then you probably know that I have my own long elborate draw out theories on wands, but rather than bore you with the whole thing, I will just make two points - 1.) Phoenix are relatively rare birds. They do exist in the wild, but I'm under the impression that these are found in Egypt, India, and China. So, not readily available in England. We do see and it is implied that there are a few of them like Fawkes in Britain, but I suspect you can count them on one hand. 2.) A vast majority of wands sold by Ollivander are Unicorn and Dragon Heart. I won't say that Phoenix wands are rare, but they are uncommon. So, I think through available birds in UK and by ordering them from Africa and Asia, Ollivander is able to get all the Phoenix cores he needs. Of course, I can't prove a word of it, but it meets my standard which is 'does it seem likely?'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From hpmelandme at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 22:18:54 2003 From: hpmelandme at yahoo.com (hpmelandme) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:18:54 -0000 Subject: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" In-Reply-To: <78E7CDFC.0750F96D.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76509 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/10/2003 5:34:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KathyK writes: > > Perhaps she does have a questionable wizarding family past and could be a potential inmate at Azkaban if she breaks this rule, at least DD tells her so. > I do not believe DD would lie to her about any of it or tell her she'd wind up in Azkaban if she breaks this rule. I do think she has had to keep up with DD. I believe she knows a lot more about the WW than she lets on. I just cannot believe DD would be manipulative with her. Thanks for listening! :) D From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 10 22:34:50 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 22:34:50 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76510 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > > > > I love the way she plays with language and images ---Mimbulus mimbletonia, Bellatrix LeStrange --- although her grammar can be a bit loose. Oh me too. It is really a strength with her. Only Rowling could make me think 'Hermione Granger' is a perfectly normal name for the girl next door. I love all the names of the places and the people. I even like 'Shacklebolt'. Frankly just fun to say. > > In a way this makes Hermione an even more culturally relevant character. > How do we stay conscious during these multicultural times in which social > inequities are more subtle? Well... I am always hoping it will be that. But I fear she has little desire to be such a subtle writer. She's very attached to the boldness of charicature. It isn't a bad thing but it might get in the way of developing more subtle themes. Look at how much time was spent on developing Umbridge versus Hermione's ongoing interaction (or non interaction) with the elves. Of course only time will tell... But I have my doubts. I am sure the elves will be important plotwise, but I am not sure there will be any effectively drawn comment on Hermione's views. > > > Is OOTP just brain candy or is it literature? It can't be both. > > > Perhaps neither? > For me it's rather more candified than literary, but maybe really, really > great candy? Like those Godiva dark chocolate scallop shells with the soft hazelnut mousse in the inside? > Oooo I like that - very funny. Not good for you - but certainly more respectable than a kitkat. > > > I found Byatt unduly grumpy, myself, like a cranky adult in 1963 who loves > classical music and utterly misses the point of rock n roll. she seemed to > be tuned into the wrong frequency and thus missing the essense of > Potterversality. Did you happen to catch the John Leonard piece that was > released close to the Byatt? It was a nice antidote, I thought. Nice point. We may not be reading becuase of what the press is saying at all. We may just like it - simple as that. And my attack on the inflated reviews may be nothing more than a straw man. I found the emphasis on what Byatt deemed magic SHOULD be to be unwarranted. I'm closer to thinking Hensher got it right by being more charitable to the goals of the work. > > I think that there certainly are "better" books than Potter out there, > for sure. But this is a special sort of cultural phenomenon. I could see > a Chekhov play instead of watching "6 Feet Under", but I'd rather > participate in a more culturally relevant experience. Besides, Peter > Krause is hot. But I digress... LOL! That is true as well. I never watched Smallville for its deep characters or sophisticated themes. > To quote the charming Leonard piece: (As if we were choosing up for a secret society; as if we couldn't enjoy Hermione in the library while at the same time taking a bloodthirsty interest in Hazel the Warrior Rabbit.) And finally the world-weary and wart-afflicted who complain about the mediocre movies, the media hype, the marketing blitz I really liked this article - unlike Taylor's piece it had something to say instead of just launching a ridiculous attack on Byatt. Well I agree about the first point - we can like all types of stories. I have to disagree about the second. To say that by criticizing the work are only making fools of oneself by trying to be contrary to the media blitz but in reality following along is oxymoronic. I think the only way to keep me from becoming a weary media lemming (what can I say - I'm weak) is for people within communities (whatever they are - political, literary etc...) to use said media to challange the status quo. Status quo was that the new Potter was sublime and Rowling was better than ever. Byatt simply had a different view. A good media bounds the ball around and makes us think. I think Fay Weldon was also very insightful when she said that Byatt was a party pooper but then they usually are right. But really who ever liked it when the kid next to us said wisely - no we shouldn't. (Thus the reason so many hate Hermione. She's an infuriating party pooper for much of the time. No Firewhisky for Ron I'm afraid....Byatt would not approve.) > You sound like you have some sort of aesthetic gun pointing at your head and you'll be damned forever if you do the wrong thing. > I say: really, what difference does it make? LOL! No not at all ... Just my dramatic way of thinking I am afraid. > madeyemood who has an incredibly disheartening summer cold. Ahhh poor you. Golly From greatraven at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:04:17 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:04:17 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumenc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76511 Sydney wrote: > On the other hand, I can definitely see a case for Snape having > SUBCONSIOUSLY left the Pensive out, for the reasons you describe, and > also as a... cry for help? See that big volume of Freud behind > Rowling in her author's picture? Um, I was right with you till this bit. It seems to me he left the Pensieve out because he got interrupted and had to dash off to handle an emergency (sorry, my sister has my copy of OoTP, so I can't check this). And Harry being Harry, and just as nosy as he was the last time he saw the thing and the time he caught poor old Filch doing magic by correspondence, he had a look, didn't he? And it moved the plot along without exposition. Sometimes, as it's said, "a cigar is just a cigar." : - ) . My own question is - if this guy, Snape is so crash hot in Occlumency, why does he need the Pensieve at all to hide his thoughts from a mere student? Sue B From agnes_braunerhielm at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:13:59 2003 From: agnes_braunerhielm at hotmail.com (agnesbrauner) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:13:59 -0000 Subject: OoP - GUILTY Dumbledore (was Dumbledore's true sorrow motives) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76512 "--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "talisman22457" wrote: > > 1. Dumbledore doesn't neutralize Bellatrix; > 2. JK is coy about where crucial jet came from; > 3. If Sirius just stunned, does Dumbledore "float" him > through veil?; > 4. Fast-draw Dumbledore doesn't try to save Sirius from > falling through veil; > 5. Dumbledore doesn't comfort Harry. > 6. Dumbledore manages the LV scene in lobby; > 7. Dumbledore knows LV going to possess Harry; > 8. Dumbledore knows Sirius love/grief thought repels LV; > 9. Dumbledore gets: > a. special power activation; > b. chosen one verification; > c. Prophecy preparation; > d. LV repellent; > e. no sirius interference. > > > > Oh, yes. Sirius had to die. DUMBLEDORE IS GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!" You guys, isn't this too much analyzing? Maybe that Sirius dies isn't DD's heartless, "noble" plan, but JKR's? SHE needed him to die to get "the power that Dark Lord has not" activated within Harry and all of the above (a-e) that Talisman wrote, so that her book series could go on ;). Maybe it was all just a "lucky coincidence" that all of that (a-e) happeded for Harry and DD when Sirius fell through the death viel. Because, if it in fact was DD's plan, would not he then had FAKE Sirius death instead of making sure he died? Neither Lupin, the rest of the Order nor DD is THAT cold-hearted, being able to KILL an order-member, even if it helps Harry to defeat LV. I mean, if DD would FAKE Sirius' death, would not that bring out "the power the Dark Lord has not" as well? Harry has no PROOF Sirius is dead, he just believes it because everyone else says it is so. Harry hasn't even asked what the veil was. (but I guess WE all have guessed now, based on the fact that the room was called the Death Chamber...) So, they could just as easaly have faked Sirius' death. But I don't think they have, but I don't think DD planned it either. Harry could just have continued with Occulmency lessons and developped LV repellent that way. And we all know he is the chosen one, don't we? (the night of the scar!) So, I would be very surprised if JKR suddenly makes DD and Lupin(if he was the one to send the jet of light at Sirius as Kathy K suggests in post 76335) the Sirius-killers and they thereby become as cold- hearted as Bellatrix. If DD killed Sirius and he simply looks upon as a LV-weapon... I think the books would lose some of their charm if it turned out that DD fibbeled with Harry's destiny like that. /Agnes (who thinks JKR is GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY!) (But somewhere inside still thinks it was suspicious that DD did not stop Bella from fighting with Sirius and that he did not save Sirius from going through the veil...= can't wait until Book Six.) From greatraven at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:14:33 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:14:33 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76513 Lee wrote: - I'm wondering if Ottery St. Catchpole has a > grist mill, or a farmers market. Do they sell some of the food they > grow? > Good point, but it's made very clear in the Weasleys' scenes that they know very little about the Muggle world, apart from Mr Weasley's enthusiasm for its gadgets. They don't even know how to post a letter. They must handle Muggle money sometimes, for Mrs W to buy all those stamps, but if they were communicating regularly enough to sell their produce, they would know more than they seem to. Sue B From greatraven at hotmail.com Sun Aug 10 23:19:20 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:19:20 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: <3F369A64.10007@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76514 > >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" > > wrote: > > > > > > > >>Kim I'm beginning to get a bit concerned about the enormous amount > >>of food consumed by everyone at Hogswarts. Hardly a healthy diet, > >>even for growing teens. I'm glad someone has brought up this point! They should look like young elephants by the time they leave Hogwarts. From what I have heard of boarding school food, it's pretty awful. My guess is that this is the equivalent of Enid Blyton's "midnight feasts". (Well, the Gryffindor common-room parties certainly are, anyway). The author is writing a fantasy and children reading it think, "Ooh, wouldn't it be nice to go to school *there* Sue B From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 00:09:14 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 16:09:14 -0800 Subject: Other Children's Lit (Re: [HPforGrownups] Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030810155446.00a68a90@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 76515 At 05:16 PM 8/9/2003 +0000, feetmadeofclay wrote: >And I would like to know if Potter is the only children's lit you are >reading. Or what books you loved as kids. And of course why... Another series that I read and enjoy is Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events. I find its sense of humor entertaining. I also like the break from traditional children's stories...because none of the stories in the series ends happily. The speculations into the deeper mysteries in the book are also very entertaining. As for my opinion on the OoP, I find it to be an enjoyable book. I liked getting more of the story line. I think it is unfair to judge one book in a series, but rather look at the whole series. I can't think of any series of books (that progress the same story) where all the individual stories were equally good. Every series has its "Temple of Doom", "Search for Spock", OR "Return of the King"...and I'm sure you will find people that proclaim these were their favorites in the series. I found them dull or weak, but I'm glad I read/saw them because it added to the overall story. From fc26det at aol.com Mon Aug 11 00:31:28 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:31:28 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76516 Does it say anywhere that Petunia and Lily were the only children of their parents? What if they had a brother or brothers who were wizards? Then what Petunia says about her parents were so proud they had a witch in the family would also fit. Just a thought. Susan From dradamsapple at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 01:35:29 2003 From: dradamsapple at yahoo.com (dradamsapple) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 01:35:29 -0000 Subject: Evanesco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Just reading the Order of the Phoenix chapter, and found that the evanesco charm was used to clear up parchments left over from the recent meeting... Snape uses it to empty cauldrons, and it is Seamus, I believe who uses it to empty a puke-filled pail. What does evanesco actually do? Does it move a substance or object to somewhere else or does it just transfigure it into air (in which case, I would think it's not permanent)? Thoughts? > > -Dan > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Dan, Funny you should ask . . . I just recently looked it up upon getting the new "Evanescence" cd. go check these out . . . http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=evanesce http://evanescence.com I hope these links work. Anna . . . From kellywlsc at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 02:59:01 2003 From: kellywlsc at yahoo.com (KellyWLSC) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 02:59:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > POA, ch. 11, pg. 228, American Edition, Trelawney speaking: > "'I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! > Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine > together, the first to rise will be the first to die.'" > > > GOF, ch. 23, pg. 415-419, American Edition > "The House tables had vanished; instead there were about a hundred > smaller, lantern-lit ones, each seating about a dozen people." > > > (Reading through that section, we know that the judges and the > champions with their partners are seated together at the top table: > Dumbledore, Karkaroff, Bagman, Maxime, Percy, Krum & Hermoine, Harry > & Parvati, Roger & Fleur, Cedric & Cho. Thirteen people.) > > > "When the food had been consumed, Dumbledore stood up and asked the > students to do the same." > > > Uh. Oh. > > Bohcoo That gave me chills at first, but................ Actually, I don't think this can be true, because Cedric was sitting ther and he was the first to die. Am I right? -Kelly From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 03:35:56 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 03:35:56 -0000 Subject: The timeline (How Old Are Snape/Sirius/Lupin...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76519 > In AdultHPFanatics at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" > wrote: > 1841ish Albus Dumbledore > 1921 Minerva McGonagall (revised) > 1926 Tom "Lord Voldemort" Riddle (16 when opened the Chamber) > 1929 Hagrid (3rd year when expelled at 13) > 1931 Moaning Myrtle (only IF she was a first year when she died) > 1945-6 Petunia, Vernon > 1948 Lucius, Arthur, Molly > 1955-6 Snape, Lily, James, Remus, Peter, Sirius (Possibly > Narcissa, Andromeda & Bellatrix) > 1963(?) Barty Crouch, Jr. > 1968(?) Bill (revised) > 1970(?) Charlie (Possibly Tonks)(revised) > 1976 Percy, Oliver > 1978 Fred & George, Lee, Angelina, etc. > 1980 Harry, Ron, Hermione, Neville, Draco, Dudley, etc. > 1981 Ginny, Luna, Colin, etc. > 1983 Dennis Creevey *** Sorry to everyone who read and replied to this post. I thought I was wrong about who was the oldest Weasley child so I switched them. Apparently, I was right the first time with Bill. The brothers have been switched. Hopefully, it makes more since now with Bill (and his cool ponytail) 13 years older than Ginny. Marci (my bad) From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Mon Aug 11 06:35:44 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:35:44 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookraptor11" wrote: > The more I read these discussions, the more I'm convinced Snape left > the Pensieve out on purpose. > Donna I have a hard time to believe that, because of the way he changed his behavior towards Harry after this incident. If it was a all a setup, you would think that he would be pleased with himself when his plan worked out so well, and keep picking on Harry even more during potions. This is something he normally seems to enjoy doing. The fact that Snape starts picking on Harry again at the end of the book is a good sign in my mind. Marika From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 06:40:05 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 06:40:05 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76521 > > > Buttercup's original message: > > > > >I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > > >is plausible. > Steve B replies: > > > > I agree that Ginny's personality has changed drastically, but I disagree > > that it is unbelievable. First of all, we barely even see her in > books 3 and > > 4, so its been 3 years. Nobody's personality changes faster than a young > > teenage girl. > Sydney: > I AM an expert on otherwise outgoing teenage girls who turn into dithering ninnies in > the presence of their crush! I often cringed to think of what > impression I must be leaving the Boy of My Dreams with. > Having suffered from Crush-Induced Brain-Cloud syndrome, I badly > wanted to see Ginny come into her own. Me (Margaret): I just had to post that I am in total agreement with Sydney on this one. I personally am one of those people who never shuts up, and is generally making (good hearted) jokes at her friend's expense (is it any wonder my favorite characters are Fred and George?) but who couldn't form a coherent sentence when around a boy I was interested in in high school (still sneaks up on me occassionally). My friends actually found it an amusing indicator of who I currently had a crush on at the time. Luckily I went through crushes like socks, so after my affection switched to another guy, I went back to my real personality. A (former) crush remarked on this turn-around on more than one occassion. (my friends were forbidden from revealing the cause, though ;-) So yes, Ginny's evolving into a more outgoing character was not only realistic, I actually expected it to happen. ~Margaret From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 07:41:38 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:41:38 -0000 Subject: Portkeys - Curses foiled again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76522 > > bboy_mn: > > I have a theory in this area of magical travel. Much like Star Trek > Transporter teleportation, I think, with in reasonable limits, magic > has a certain safeguard built in that prevent you from materializing > inside solid objects. > Me (Margaret): This would be a really nice thing to have, but one of the most vivid images from the Weasley kitchen in GoF (at least for me) is Mr Weasley explaining what "squelching" is, (apparating poorly and leaving part of yourself behind: OW!) and talking about the magical reversal squad having to sort them out "they were stuck you see, couldn't move either way" and having to perform memory charms on the muggles who saw the random body bits. But the people in question were fined for apperating without a license, so maybe once you've passed the test it becomes second nature to avoid apparating into solid objects. But Fred and George did have a pretty good idea of the setup of Ron's bedromm, and could have avoided most of the furniture. ~Margaret From hpmomandmel at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 09:36:54 2003 From: hpmomandmel at yahoo.com (hpmomandmel) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:36:54 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumenc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76523 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "HunterGreen" wrote: > > > Donna wrote: > > > The more I read these discussions, the more I'm convinced Snape > left > > > the Pensieve out on purpose. > [snip] > > > He may have been hoping that Harry > > > would look into the pensieve and so chose the best memory that > would > > > put James in the worst possible light. Knowing what Harry went > > > through, Snape would have a better idea of what would deflate > Harry's > > > worship of his father. > Unless DD had told Snape that Harry knew what a pensieve was, then how could Snape think that Harry would look into it? No, I think Snape was very horrified to find Harry in his awful memory. His reaction was rage and not, "Aha, you fell for my trap! Now what do you think of that father of yours?" D From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 09:37:55 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:37:55 -0000 Subject: The Traitor (was: Colin Creevey...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76524 Hickengruendler: > > > > > > A while ago I posted that prof. Trelawney refers to Voldemort > > as "the Dark Lord", like > > > Harry tells Snape he (Harry) has only heard Death Eaters call LV. > > In reply to this, > > > Ximena (post #74179) listed everyone (I think :)) who uses that > > term, and the most > > > surprising name on the list was Ernie Macmillan. I haven't been > > watching him all that > > > closely, and the Dark Lord theory may not be completely fool- > > proof... but it's > > > interesting nevertheless. :) > > > me (Margaret) : I don't think this has anything to do with Ernie going over to Voldemort, I think it's because Ernie has a tendency to be rather pompous at times (okay, MOST times), and "the Dark Lord" certainly sounds better than Fudge's "Lord... Thingy" ;-) From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 10:04:19 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:04:19 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sorting (was:Re: Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency) In-Reply-To: <20030809162316.24090.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76525 Buttercup: He didn't ask about the > sorting hat telling Harry he would do well in > Slytherin. > Me (Margaret): This was probably discussed years ago (I've been here about a week) but the orig post made me think of it again, as I just went through all the sorting hat's songs again. The Sorting Hat's exact words are: "You could be great you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on you way to greatness, no doubt about that." (SS-paperback) At the time, and even since, everyone has followed Harry's lead in thinking that this meant he should be in Slytherin HOUSE (strongly influenced by the theory in CoS that he was the one responsible) but I think this was meant another way. I think it's a reference to the Harry/Voldemort(the last (ancestor or decendant depending on you r copy of CoS) of Salazar Slytherin) conflict. Now, please indulge my insanity a bit further :-) If it was a reference to Harry being "the boy who lived" it would have said 'helped' not 'will help'. It could be a reference to protecting the Stone, but I think DD could have done that (we don't know the mirror of Erised wouldn't have worked). It could have been the escape in the graveyard, but that didn't make Harry great, in a way it made him a laughingstock (the Daily Prophet's attacks in OoP). Or the duel in the MOM in OoP, but I have a feeling Fudge will hush that up, he won't want to admit that not only was he wrong about Voldemort's rebirth, Voldemort walked er... apperated right INTO the ministry. I think it was a sign of the prophecy coming to light AND being fulfilled, that Harry has to be the one to defeat Voldemort. And I think it was quite possibly a prophecy (if a hat can make a prophecy, of course) that Harry WILL defeat Voldemort, since being killed by Voldemort isn't all that special. He's killed a lot of people, as we all know. Just an idea, I could be wrong. ~Margaret, advancing her first theory (if it really is mine ;-) and hoping people will not send her dozens of howlers From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 10:35:11 2003 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (cressida_tt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:35:11 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > Lee wrote: > > - I'm wondering if Ottery St. Catchpole has a > > grist mill, or a farmers market. Do they sell some of the food they > > grow? Whether the wizarding world or not, this is England and the systems are very different here. I am unfamiliar with either of those terms in actual fact. Farmers generally sell their produce in bulk to distributors although a certain ammount of produce is sold 'over the farm gate'. I strongly suspect that the Weasleys actually grow a certain amount of food in their garden and also if you remember Harry's first visit to the Burrow, there are hens scratching in the farmyard. D. From sppstjulien at aol.com Sun Aug 10 22:14:49 2003 From: sppstjulien at aol.com (sppstjulien at aol.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 18:14:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Harry Tell Neville About The Prophecy? (was R & H) Message-ID: <1ce.f154a47.2c681dd9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76527 I think you are absolutely correct about this theory regarding Neville. Not only did he become more involved and stand up for himself more in OOTP, he was the only student standing when the fighting was over. I think if Harry tells anyone about the prohecy, it will be to Neville, who was the only other person to whom the prophecy could have pertained. I think this will happen especiallly if Neville continues to show his courage and improvement in his magical abilities. Didn't it mention in OOTP that he did well during OWLS away from the pressure of the teachers? Also, DD told HP in the SS that people can have marks that are unseen, i.e. the mark of love given to HP by his mother when she died protecting him. Surely Nevillle's parents being tortured into insanity would have left some sort of mark on Neville, especially one that couldn't be seen (i.e. mental anxiety from anger over his parents being tortured). Since DD told HP in OOTP that Voldemort didn't have access to the entire prophecy and assumed Harry was to be his equal, perhaps Voldemort chose the wrong boy when he went after Harry and his parents. Seeing Neville's remarkable growth and determination to learn defense against the dark arts in OOTP seems to be a clue that he will be playing a much larger role than previously thought in the downfall of Voldemort and his Death Eaters. JK has given hints in interviews that Harry might not survive into adulthood, so perhaps it will be Neville who will bring about Voldemort's demise. From wkduke51 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 00:01:37 2003 From: wkduke51 at yahoo.com (wkduke51) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 00:01:37 -0000 Subject: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" In-Reply-To: <78E7CDFC.0750F96D.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/10/2003 5:34:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, KathyK writes: > > <> > > I agree. I thought, with words to describe her speech like "jerkily," that Petunia was simply lying. > > Here's what I think: > > Petunia has had to keep in touch with DD, at DD's orders, and in secret so as to not upset Vernon. She hasn't liked it, but DD has told her all about Azkaban and the Dementors, so she fears him enough to follow his orders. > > Perhaps she does have a questionable wizarding family past and could be a potential inmate at Azkaban if she breaks this rule, at least DD tells her so. Why else would she seem to know so little about the WW (or be able to feign ignorance about it), but still have evident knowledge of Azkaban? Harry was actively involved in the WW for a couple of years without knowing of Azkaban. > > Brief Chronicles Hello. Petunia Dursely, I believe, is going to be a big surprise. Dumbledore has a "plan." He has had Harry raised like a Spartan. No family, no affection, starved, worked, abused. The result we've seen is Harry's inability to trust anyone, including Dumbledore (except unbelievably, Sirius). Harry's distrust was evident in GoF in the second task, when he thought Dumbledore would allow Ron and the other hostages to die, and was fatal to Sirius in the battle at the MoM, which would not have occurred if Harry had applied himself to the training Dumbledore imposed, or had thought to confide in (trust) Snape. Harry shows no ability whatsoever to accept criticism. Petunia's function is to raise a hardened magical warrior who trusts no one,and she has. She has to have a quid pro quo. From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 10:43:31 2003 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (cressida_tt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:43:31 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76529 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acciosirius" wrote: > Buttercup wrote: > > I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > > is plausible. She goes from being pretty much > > unnoticeable to being almost a female version of > > Harry. > > > > I do have one problem with her though. She switches > > boyfriends a little too quickly for a girl of only > > fourteen years. One second it's Michael Corner, then > > Dean Thomas. Cressida replies: The suggestion that Ginny has had a sudden personality change is debatable if not entirely erroneous. If you read the first four books then the clues to her personality are all their. It is simply that she ha an embarassing crush on Harry that makes her awkward in his eyes. Ron actually says that it is unusual for her to be shy and she is normally talkative. After her rescue from the Chamber, she is upset but pushes Ron away when he tries to baby her. She is a Weasley with six big brothers and also Hermione's confidante at some points. We also see before the Yule ball her ability to give a sharp comment when she mentions to Hermione that the two boys have just been turned down for the ball. There is also the fact that she is still only 14/15 and still developing as a person as well as a character in the series. As to changing boyfriends quickly? She has had one relationship with Michael Corner and I am inclined to agree that Dean Thomas might have been a deliberate attempt to pull Ron's leg. D. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 12:26:36 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:26:36 -0000 Subject: Re-reading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > > 1. Snape's worst memory > > > > Chapter 16. It's a sunny day, and the exams are over. HRH go looking > > for Dumbledore and don't find him. > > > > bboy_mn: > No comment. > > But I will add, I don't think the memory in OotP was Snape's worst > memory. Remember he put several in the Pensieve. But it was the memory > that most moved the plot forward. Harry now has empathy for Snape. He > understands that his Dad, James, wasn't a saint. > > So I think the intended selection process of the particular memory > from the Pensieve was suppose to appear random, but as literary fate > would have it, it was randomly the one that worked best in the story. > I think Snape probably has close to seven years of treatment very > similar to that one memory. Laura: I wonder what kinds of picture of Snape we would have seen if we had been able to see the memories of James, Sirius and Remus. The text we have now makes it sound like Snape's worst crime against them was being nosy, and they retaliated with some serious bullying and humiliation. But there's always another side to the story. We know that Snape is heavy into the Dark Arts from the moment he arrives at Hogwarts. Any theories about what Snape might have done to them? > From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 11 12:45:55 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:45:55 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76531 There's been lots of commentary on Snape's grey underwear, but I noticed that in GoF chapter 25, Snape is walking about the castle at night in a long grey nightshirt. Now, whatever his circumstances as a boy, he can't now be too poor to afford new clothes. Nor can I believe that he never washes his clothes, if that's even his responsibility. I imagine the House Elves take care of the laundry, anyway. But there's more than one reason for white things to turn grey, besides being unwashed. If his nightgown is old, it would very likely turn grey after much washing, especially if some of his regular black clothes got into the pile. And everyone knows that old clothes are the most comfortable, so maybe Snape is just one of those people who don't care too much about what their things look like, as long as they're nice and soft and comfy. Wanda From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 13:28:11 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:28:11 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape in OotP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76532 This may have been discussed before, and if it has, sorry for double posting. In SS Quirrel talks of Snape trying to stop him from finding the SS and thwarting him in his attempt to kill Harry during the quidditch match. He does this while Lord Voldy is attached to the back of his head. Now my question is how is Snape going to pull off being a DE while he was actively trying to stop Lord Voldy from coming back to power in the first book? Lord Voldy had to hear the conversations Quirrell had with Snape and Harry, and he is probably pretty angry about a former DE being against him.(serious understatement) IMHO I think Snape is toast, Lord Voldy is just trailing him on, until his usefulness runs out, Snape must be feeding him some information, just nothing very critical to the OotP, just enough to keep him alive. What does everyone else think? This has been bothering me after re-reading the SS. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Mon Aug 11 13:31:55 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:31:55 -0000 Subject: The Traitor (was: Colin Creevey...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76533 Margaret wrote: > Hickengruendler: > > > > > > > > A while ago I posted ... (etc)... > me (Margaret) : > > I don't think this has anything to do with Ernie going over to > Voldemort, I think it's because Ernie has a tendency to be rather > pompous at times (okay, MOST times), and "the Dark Lord" certainly > sounds better than Fudge's "Lord... Thingy" ;-) That could be a reason, but when I look at the list I still think that Ernie is in some company. I think that apart from Dobby Ernie was the only non-DE there. (I didn't get this verified though by actually checking the list right now...) And I really feel I have to point out that it wasn't Hickengruendler who wrote the post to which you replied, but me... :) evangelina From tracie622 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 13:37:24 2003 From: tracie622 at yahoo.com (Tracie) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:37:24 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Does it say anywhere that Petunia and Lily were the only children of > their parents? What if they had a brother or brothers who were > wizards? Then what Petunia says about her parents were so proud they > had a witch in the family would also fit. > Just a thought. > Susan Oh, I think it's very possible that Petunia and Lily had another sibling, a brother. Mark Evans comes to mind. I really don't think it's a coincidence that he has Lily's and Petunia's maiden name. Tho, it does not necessarily mean that there was another sibling, DD did say that Petunia was Harry's only direct bloodline relative "alive". Yet, it may just mean that Mark's parents are dead too and he is being raised by relatives. So, it could be very possible that Lily and Petunia had a sibling. Tracie From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 13:44:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:44:41 -0000 Subject: Food in wizarding world In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76535 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lee" wrote: > > I'm wondering if Ottery St. Catchpole has a > grist mill, or a farmers market. Do they sell some of the food they > grow? > > I think they're doing fine. History tends to show that people with > little money will find ways around it. > > Lee :) bboy_mn: Of course, there are Farmer's Market all over England, but more importantly, I think street markets are quite common. If you watch the British TV show called 'East Enders', you see them out in the street buying fruits and vegetables from street vendors in small neighborhood markets all the time. London Farmer's Market- http://www.lfm.org.uk/index.asp National Association of Farmers Markets- http://www.farmersmarkets.net/ London Street Markets- http://www.londontown.com/London/General_Street_Markets http://www.1st4londonhotels.co.uk/guide/markets/ http://www.travelbritain.com/londonstreetmarkets.html In fact, there is a famous London Street Market just a few short blocks from Diagon Alley. Berwick Street Market, five blocks west of Charing Cross Road just south of Oxford Street. Berwick Street Market is one of that last big fruit and vegitable markets. Most of what used to be produce markets have now been converted to Yuppy markets selling antiques and other more durable goods. For reference, Berwick Street Market is just north of Chinatown. On Berwick Street are a sausage shop and Finn's of Picadilly, a meat market. I needed these tid bit for a story, so I've done my research. There is also a London open air market where meat is butcher right on the spot. Live cattle slaughtered before your very eyes. Doesn't get much fresher than that. Relating this back to the wizard world, the 'farm market' and 'street market' seem to be an old world traditions, and it is very likely that wizard markets look much that same. I think wizards exist in almost every profession. For example; I have to assume there are wizard farmers. They do the same thing all farmers do, but wizards do it with magic; plow the field, harvest the crops, etc..... Let's also remember that transportation is no big deal to wizards. Molly and Arthur live in Devon, but Arthur works in London; and he can pop back and forth between them in the blink of an eye. So, for Molly to pop off to Diagon Alley for some groceries would be extremely convinient. So, why don't we see these markets and grocer shops? Because Harry get's his food cooked for him were ever he goes, so he doesn't have much need to go to grocery stores. First year out of Hogwarts and you can bet he will know where every grocery store is. Either that, or he will spend all his money eating in cafes. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bibphile at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 13:48:39 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:48:39 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracie" wrote: > Oh, I think it's very possible that Petunia and Lily had another > sibling, a brother. Mark Evans comes to mind. I really don't think > it's a coincidence that he has Lily's and Petunia's maiden name. I do think Mark is connected somehow to Lily and Petunia. I don't think JKR would pick the name Evans if he wasn't. (Though I suppose it could be deliberate misdirection.) I don't think he's a brother though. First of all, there is no way he could be a brother if Lily's parents were dead when Lily was killed. That was four years before he was born. Secondly, even if Lily and Petunia's more was only 20 when Lily was born, she'd be about 47 when Mark was born. I know that's not impossible, but it doesn't happen often. I suppose their mother could have been younger than 20 when Lily was born, but I doubt it because I think Petunia is a few years older than Lily (though I have no proof). bibphile From Lynx412 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 13:51:31 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:51:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:So Happy to Have a Witch... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76537 In a message dated 8/11/03 9:39:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, tracie622 at yahoo.com writes: > Oh, I think it's very possible that Petunia and Lily had another > sibling, a brother. Mark Evans comes to mind. I really don't think > it's a coincidence that he has Lily's and Petunia's maiden name. > Tho, it does not necessarily mean that there was another sibling, DD > did say that Petunia was Harry's only direct bloodline > relative "alive". Yet, it may just mean that Mark's parents are > dead too and he is being raised by relatives. So, it could be very > possible that Lily and Petunia had a sibling. I don't think that Petunia and Lily had a brother. I think that Mark Evans is related, but suspect that his dad is/was a cousin of the sisters, making Mark a second cousin. That, IMO, would fit better with the comment about Petunia being Harry's only 'blood' relative. The Evans line would look something like this: 1. Great-grandfather Evans 2a. Grandfather Evans 2b. Great Uncle Evans 2a. Grandfaher Evans 3a. Petunia 3b. Lily 2b. Great Uncle Evans 3c. Cousin Evans 3a. Petunia 4a. Dudley 3b. Lily 4b. Harry 3c. Cousin Evans 4c. Mark [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tracie622 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 13:56:06 2003 From: tracie622 at yahoo.com (Tracie) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:56:06 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76538 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracie" > wrote: > > Oh, I think it's very possible that Petunia and Lily had another > > sibling, a brother. Mark Evans comes to mind. I really don't > think > > it's a coincidence that he has Lily's and Petunia's maiden name. > > I do think Mark is connected somehow to Lily and Petunia. I don't > think JKR would pick the name Evans if he wasn't. (Though I suppose > it could be deliberate misdirection.) > > I don't think he's a brother though. First of all, there is no way > he could be a brother if Lily's parents were dead when Lily was > killed. That was four years before he was born. > > Secondly, even if Lily and Petunia's more was only 20 when Lily was > born, she'd be about 47 when Mark was born. I know that's not > impossible, but it doesn't happen often. > > I suppose their mother could have been younger than 20 when Lily was > born, but I doubt it because I think Petunia is a few years older > than Lily (though I have no proof). > > bibphile no no no...i meant that Lily and Petunia could have had a brother...and that Mark is the child of that brother. Not that Mark himself was their brother, that wouldn't work. It's just a theory. He could just be a distant cousin or something. I'm kind of expecting to see a first year by the name of Mark Evans being sorted at the beginning of the next book tho. Tracie From sara1412au at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 13:57:05 2003 From: sara1412au at yahoo.com (Sara_ELL) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:57:05 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76539 Wanda wrote: > There's been lots of commentary on Snape's grey underwear, Wanda, As much as I hate to admit it (slurring the name of Snape and all of that), I have to point out that in order for laundry to become laundry, it has to be removed from the wearer's body and placed in a designated location, usually called "a laundry basket". Lily's retort to troubled-teenage-upsidedown!Snape is of course, is the implication that he has not managed to acquire the level of hygiene associated with regular laundering of undergarments, hence greying underwear. Actually - as an aside, this may be another thing that troubled- teenage!Snape has with highly-troubled-teenage!Harry, if you read the article put out on "The Leaky Cauldron" website which recalls the number of times Harry is mentioned bathing or cleaning himself in the series and finds it... lacking. The long grey nightshirt is, by extrapolation therefore somewhat troubling as in my deepest of hearts, I really, really would hope that Snape would have mastered the art of bathing by the age 35 (or however old he is meant to be). I shall comfort myself with the thought that Snape's nightshirt, neither black nor white, is a reflection of his character itself - mysterious and grey. *** Sara-ELL (who cannot argue with your logic of nice, soft and comfy old flannel jammies) From jedillore at rcn.com Mon Aug 11 12:12:39 2003 From: jedillore at rcn.com (Emily Rose) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 07:12:39 -0500 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: <1060409104.5563.8060.m3@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76540 on 8/9/03 1:05 AM, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com at HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > <<< The Entwife wrote: Since places like Hogwarts and the Quidditch > Cup Stadium are spelled to make muggles avoid them (and make muggle > artifacts not work in them?) - if someone was say flying overhead and > dropped an atom-bomb - would it go off? Would it fall crooked? What? >>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > Ooh, ooh! Something else I never thought would come up in the > conversation! > > It all depends on WHY muggle artifacts don't work, which possibly > involves what exactly is defined as a 'muggle artifact'. Electricity, > but why? Would batteries work? A steam-powered generator? Solar > cells? TNT? This reminds me of one of those "could Superman beat up Batman?" conversations, but it is interesting to speculate about. :-) I've actually had a theory about this for some time. Not about atom bombs per say, but I think it applies. My theory is that in the magical world, the laws of physics don't necessarily apply. My reason for thinking this came around book 3 when Harry looked at Hermione's Muggle Studies notes and saw pictures of levers and ramps and muggles lifting heavy objects. These are all basic physics concepts and when I thought about the Burrow whose architecture defies the laws of physics and is held up by magic, it seemed to make sense that what separates wizards and muggles is physics. So the fundamental forces, such as gravity (Fg) and electricity (Fe) are "replaced" by the force of magic. This means that wizards don't know about how levers and ramps work because they have "wingardium leviosa" and "accio". Concepts such as velocity and light speed would be irrelevant because they have Firebolts and apparition. So muggle studies is studying how the forces of physics replace the force of magic. Based on this theory a few things might happen: A plane might fly over and drop a bomb, which for some odd reason (to the pilot) didn't immediately fall out of the plane. The reason is because over a powerfully magical place like the Quidditch Cup stadium, gravity was negated. Or, perhaps at that very moment, the instruments malfunctioned because the force of electricity was interrupted so that electrons did not flow. The detonation of an atom bomb complies with the laws of physics (detonation of unstable radioactive atomic particles cause a chain reaction) so perhaps it would drop and land as a useless hunk of metal. My thoughts are that a plane full of muggles would never be able to fly over the stadium at all. Arthur Weasley described a charm that made muggles suddenly remember they had to do something else whenever they approached the stadium so that they turned around. I expect that that would apply in the plane and the pilots would suddenly need to make a course correction or return to the airport or something. But you never know. I doubt even Rowling thinks about this kind of stuff! :-) -e From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 11 13:32:12 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:32:12 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: so maybe Snape is just one of > those people who don't care too much about what their things look > like, as long as they're nice and soft and comfy. > > Wanda Or maybe he just didn't expect that everyone would be viewing his knickers that day! But I still believe there are worst things in the world than being pants. You get over it - expecially if you joined a group of people called Deatheaters who branded you and involved you in a social fascist revolution. Perhaps it was always grey. I have knickers of all colours - including grey. You never know, He might have been lucky. It could have been pink with bunnies on it. Golly From bibphile at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 14:22:51 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:22:51 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracie" wrote: > no no no...i meant that Lily and Petunia could have had a > brother...and that Mark is the child of that brother. Not that Mark himself was their brother, that wouldn't work. It's just a theory. > He could just be a distant cousin or something. Oh. ::looks embarassed at mistake:: I'm still not sure it would work though. His parents would have to be alive at the time of Lily's death. I think the idea that his father is a cousin of Lily's makes more sense. I'll go with that one for the time being. Tracie: > I'm kind of expecting to see a first year by the name of Mark Evans being sorted at the beginning of the next book tho. Me too. bibphile From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 11 14:45:01 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:45:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Grey laundry References: Message-ID: <000c01c36017$266874c0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76543 From: Wanda Sherratt There's been lots of commentary on Snape's grey underwear, but I noticed that in GoF chapter 25, Snape is walking about the castle atnight in a long grey nightshirt. <> so maybe Snape is just one of those people who don't care too much about what their things look like, as long as they're nice and soft and comfy. Wanda ------------ Or, as the description is again supposedly Harry's POV, he has the usual early teen male disregard for finer fashion detail and instead of describing Snape as in something like a silver or smoke grey silk nightshirt, we simply get a long grey nightshirt? I've not really considered Snape as the 'nice and soft and comfy' type. :) (I will now try to get rid of the image of a nice, soft and comfy Snape in a silk nightshirt.....) Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Aug 11 14:49:27 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:49:27 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76544 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > This may have been discussed before, and if it has, sorry for double > posting. In SS Quirrel talks of Snape trying to stop him from > finding the SS and thwarting him in his attempt to kill Harry during > the quidditch match. He does this while Lord Voldy is attached to > the back of his head. Now my question is how is Snape going to pull > off being a DE while he was actively trying to stop Lord Voldy from > coming back to power in the first book? Lord Voldy had to hear the > conversations Quirrell had with Snape and Harry, and he is probably > pretty angry about a former DE being against him.(serious > understatement) IMHO I think Snape is toast, Lord Voldy is just > trailing him on, until his usefulness runs out, Snape must be > feeding him some information, just nothing very critical to the > OotP, just enough to keep him alive. What does everyone else > think? This has been bothering me after re-reading the SS. There's a minority of us out here that do not think that Snape has necessarily returned to being a DE. The evidence militates against it. 1. Snape starts working for the Order two years before Voldy falls. At this time, it looks as if Voldy is winning. Snape has no need to act as Voldys' agent, especially as:- 2. For at least one year in that time, Pettigrew is Voldys' informer. 3. At the mass trials (GoF pensieve scene) Snape is publicly revealed as a baddy turned good. 4. The Quirrell affair. Why should V. trust Snape whatever he says? Sirius in OoP -"No-one leaves Voldemort and lives." The way V. acts, *anybody* is expendable if he has the slightest doubt or if they don't perform as required. The way he is depicted, he would explode at Snape saving Harry from falling from his broom. Here was a chance to nail Potter. Snape prevented it. No excuses accepted. Zap! Snape is definitely up to something, what? is a very good question, but DE? Unlikely I think. Kneasy From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 11 14:53:30 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:53:30 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: <000c01c36017$266874c0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76545 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > Or, as the description is again supposedly Harry's POV, he has the usual early teen male disregard for finer fashion detail and instead of describing Snape as in something like a silver or smoke grey silk nightshirt, we simply get a long grey nightshirt? > > I've not really considered Snape as the 'nice and soft and comfy' type. :) > > (I will now try to get rid of the image of a nice, soft and comfy Snape in a silk nightshirt.....) > Ah, but the underwear and nightshirt would be worn next to the skin, where Snape would know about them but nobody else would (unless they rudely flipped him upside-down). Maybe he has a sensuous streak to him that is hidden by his forbidding exterior. I think maybe I'll keep that nice image of a grey silk nightshirt... Wanda From akhillin at rcn.com Mon Aug 11 15:11:18 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:11:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pride and Prejudice (it's OT, honest!) Message-ID: <20030811151118.95806.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76546 I was rereading "Snape's Worst Memory" last night with great care, given the lively discussion I've been reading on this list. As an avid (rabid) Jane Austen fan, I began to compare the James/Lily interaction with the proposal scene between Elizabeth and Darcy in P & P, and I was struck with the similarities. James/Darcy is an arrogant, overconfident (not without reason) young man who is smitten with Lily/Elizabeth, and he is rebuffed in no uncertain terms, to the point of saying "You are the last man I'd ever be interested in dating/marrying." Both Lily and Elizabeth also base part of their dislike on the perceived wrongs James/Darcy have perpetrated on a seemingly innocent victim. In Elizabeth's case, we discover the truth about the "victim;" what will we discover in James's case? Without venturing into Sirius/Bingly, Snape/Wickham territory, which is risky at best and foolhardy at worst (however tempting some comparisons may be), I wonder if we will continue to see some parallels. After all, the end result does appear to be the same. akh --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Aug 11 15:17:45 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:17:45 -0000 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Emily Rose wrote: > on 8/9/03 1:05 AM, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com at > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > > >> > My theory is that in the magical world, the laws of physics don't > necessarily apply. My reason for thinking this came around book 3 when > Harry looked at Hermione's Muggle Studies notes and saw pictures of levers > and ramps and muggles lifting heavy objects. These are all basic physics > concepts and when I thought about the Burrow whose architecture defies the > laws of physics and is held up by magic, it seemed to make sense that what > separates wizards and muggles is physics. > > So the fundamental forces, such as gravity (Fg) and electricity (Fe) are > "replaced" by the force of magic. This means that wizards don't know about > how levers and ramps work because they have "wingardium leviosa" and > "accio". Concepts such as velocity and light speed would be irrelevant > because they have Firebolts and apparition. So muggle studies is studying > how the forces of physics replace the force of magic. > > Based on this theory a few things might happen: A plane might fly over and > drop a bomb, which for some odd reason (to the pilot) didn't immediately > fall out of the plane. The reason is because over a powerfully magical > place like the Quidditch Cup stadium, gravity was negated. Or, perhaps at > that very moment, the instruments malfunctioned because the force of > electricity was interrupted so that electrons did not flow. The detonation > of an atom bomb complies with the laws of physics (detonation of unstable > radioactive atomic particles cause a chain reaction) so perhaps it would > drop and land as a useless hunk of metal. > >> :-) > > -e Please don't mess with electrons! So far as JKR has told us, the WW does not have a replacement for nerve impulses or acid/base reactions in the digestive and respiratory systems. Even 'Lumos!' requires photons to impinge on the retina. Electron transfer would also be necessary for potion making to proceed. And where electrons can go, neutrons can follow. Levers and mechanical devices still work (unless the wheels on the Threstral carriages do not rotate), and Harry had a watch that only stopped after immersion in the lake (mechanical clockwork or battery?) Throughout the books, a lot of rain falls, so gravity still rules. Yep, a dumb bomb, mechanical or chemical fuse: it'd work. Kneasy From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 11 15:28:55 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:28:55 -0000 Subject: Pride and Prejudice (it's OT, honest!) In-Reply-To: <20030811151118.95806.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76548 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Anita Hillin wrote: > > Without venturing into Sirius/Bingly, Snape/Wickham territory, which is risky at best and foolhardy at worst (however tempting some comparisons may be), I wonder if we will continue to see some parallels. As long as it's just a Snape/Wickham comparison! I thought at first that you were heading for a Snape/Jane parallel, and was really wondering where that line of thought was going to lead! Wanda From yellows at aol.com Mon Aug 11 15:41:10 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:41:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Death Message-ID: <6D837A9D.5DA7ACC3.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76549 In a message dated 8/11/2003 4:14:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Hickengruendler writes: > But there were 13 people on the table when Harry first ate with the OOTP (Harry, Ron, Hermione, Molly, Arthur, Fred, George, Ginny, Sirius, Lupin,Tonks, Mundungus Fletcher and Bill) and the first to rise was indeed Sirius. I love it. Okay. I'm going to start a list here of some main characters and perhaps we can fill in the list with various bits of canon that hint their deaths in future books (if you see hints about other characters, add them in!). I'll put the first one in that I find: Harry -- PS. Harry's first Potions class is filled with references to death (Snape begins to berate Harry right after saying his class can teach you to stopper death; two of the potions he asks Harry about that Harry can;t identify are meant to prevent death) Ron Hermione Neville Dumbledore -- GoF. 13 people at table and Dumbledore is the first to rise, when Trelawney once stated that first to rise from a table of 13 will die. (Bohcoo's note) Mrs. Weasley Mr. Weasley Snape Lupin Hagrid Brief Chronicles From shaman at mac.com Mon Aug 11 15:44:48 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:44:48 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76550 On Sunday, August 10, 2003, at 05:33 PM, bohcoo wrote: > POA, ch. 11, pg. 228, American Edition, Trelawney speaking: > "'I dare not, Headmaster! If I join the table, we shall be thirteen! > Nothing could be more unlucky! Never forget that when thirteen dine > together, the first to rise will be the first to die.'" > > GOF, ch. 23, pg. 415-419, American Edition > "The House tables had vanished; instead there were about a hundred > smaller, lantern-lit ones, each seating about a dozen people." > > (Reading through that section, we know that the judges and the > champions with their partners are seated together at the top table: > Dumbledore, Karkaroff, Bagman, Maxime, Percy, Krum & Hermoine, Harry > & Parvati, Roger & Fleur, Cedric & Cho. Thirteen people.) > > "When the food had been consumed, Dumbledore stood up and asked the > students to do the same." > > Uh. Oh. Now me (Charlie): Except for the fact that *Cedric* was the first to die. Once again, Trelawney is spouting superstition as if it were insight. Charlie From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 15:47:08 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:47:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030811154708.89618.qmail@web40203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76551 --- Wanda Sherratt wrote: > And everyone knows > that > old clothes are the most comfortable, so maybe Snape is just > one of > those people who don't care too much about what their things > look > like, as long as they're nice and soft and comfy. I like the visual of Snape spending his down time in a grey sweatsuit, lounging in his undoubtably fashionable quarters (adorned in black velvet, I expect). Maybe he's a flannel fan.... some grey plaid flannel pants. Too good! Lisa G __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 15:48:05 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:48:05 -0000 Subject: Poisoned Honey (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76552 This is a companion to Wendy's filk Cornelius (#74076), in which Dolores sings of her abiding passion for the Minister. It is dedicated to Wendy and to all you other hopeless romantics out there whose souls are stirred by the Fudge/Umbridge SHIP. Poisoned Honey To the tune of Funny Honey from Chicago THE SCENE: A smoky nightclub next to The Ministry of Magic. Draped atop a piano (with PERCY at the keyboard) is the Minister himself, dressed in his sexiest pinstripe suit and green bowler. PERCY (spoken): For his next number, Minister Cornelius Fudge sings a song of love and devotion dedicated to his dearest minion (next to me). FUDGE (music): Sometimes I'm Right Sometimes I'm Left But of her sweet HEM I'm not bereft She loves me so That poisoned honey of mine! Sometimes I'm sharp Sometimes I'm flat But she rallies 'round Like a good bureaucrat She loves me so That poisoned honey of mine! She don't dress chic Her voice has a squeak Her speeches can be awful bland But tell her some lies And you'll realize That she knows her job Like the back of your hand And she's appointed by me To make Dumble flee . What if Hogwarts Dare disagrees Why, she'll be right there Writing decrees She loves me so And my pinstripes so fine That glorious, uproarious, notorious Delores of mine! (UMBRIDGE Apparates beside the piano) UMBRIDGE (spoken): I mean supposin', just supposin', we use violence against Potter...you know what I mean...violence? FUDGE (spoken, distracted by Umbridge's beauty): I know what you mean... UMBRIDGE (spoken): ...or somethin'. Think how "terrible" that would be. What that boy needs is some mentoring. I'm tellin' ya that! Get it? "Mentoring?" FUDGE (music): She loves me so That poisoned honey of mine! (WILLIAMSON, a MINISTRY official, Apparates beside the piano) WILLIAMSON (to FUDGE, spoken): Break-in tonight at the Department of Mysteries, sir. Name of intruder .Lord Voldemort. FUDGE (spoken) Lord Voldemort. How could he be a burglar? UMBRIDGE (spoken): Why, Lucius knows him. All those contributions to St. Mungo's .. FUDGE (music) Dark Lord's back, we don't look smart.... PERCY (spoken): She told us that he wasn't back. FUDGE (spoken): You mean we were wrong and Dumbledore's right? UMBRIDGE(spoken): We had it covered in the press that it was just some cock and bull story dreamed up by Potter. Stick to our plan, Minister, so that the two of us can run Hogwarts together. Voldemort, ha! It's just another of those Albus lies! What a horse's ass . Enter BANE and MAGORIAN, glaring angrily at UMBRIDGE BANE and MAGORIAN (spoken): Yes, human? UMBRIDGE (her soliloquy is spoken simultaneously over FUDGE'S song) You cannot interfere with official government business in this presumptuous manner! I am Dolores Umbridge! Senior Undersecretary to the Minister of Magic and Headmistress and Grand Inquisitor of the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry! By the laws laid down by the Department for the Regulation and Control of Magical Creatures, any attack by half-breeds such as yourselves on a human NO! NOOOOO! I AM SENIOR UNDERSECRETARY .YOU CANNOT .UNHAND ME, YOU ANIMALS .. NOOOOO! . FUDGE (music, sung over UMBRIDGE's soliloquy above) Now, she's caught by centaurs Can't stand this manure! So Hogwarts School's Out of control She let `mentors loose To snatch Harry's soul They will string me up If she does Not resign That dumpy, frumpy Jumpy Umbridge of mine! (Exit BANE and MAGORIAN, dragging a very loud UMBRIDGE with them. Her screams gradually fade. Several seconds of silence.) FUDGE: (spoken, still atop the piano, to PERCY) Uh, so you got any plans for tonight after the show ..? - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 15:58:17 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:58:17 -0000 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Emily Rose wrote: > > on 8/9/03 1:05 AM, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com at > > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > > >> > > My theory is that in the magical world, the laws of physics don't > > necessarily apply. I agree with the above statement, but that is only when Physics' laws need to be broken or bent to provide the result the woutch or wizard is after. > Yep, a dumb bomb, mechanical or chemical fuse: it'd work. > > Kneasy A bomb for many reasons would work, but only if the laws of physics were left to their own ends. But if the bomb was to be dropped over the stadium, the laws of physics no longer apply, since physics rules that you cannot fly on a broom, bludgers would not be self propelled or semi intelligent, the bomb could fall without the big bang created by the rules of physics, or it could dissappartate to a safe location, or not even fall at all. This is all saying that the pilots in the aircraft could find the stadium in the first place, it could be similar to platform 9-3/4 where there is actually not enough space for it to exist, but is still there anyhow. The ford angelia had a spacial displacement spell put on it so it could be loaded with many more people and items than it should be physically possible for it to carry. Mad Eye Moody's trunk also had the spacial displacement spell worked on it as well, since it was physically impossible for a whole room to exist in a trunk you could carry by youself. Same thing with the tents. Hence the term "physically possible",or "physically impossible", physic laws no longer apply when it suits the witches or wizards. Severus "visual mathmatician" Snape From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 16:21:16 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:21:16 -0000 Subject: Lucius and Snape (was Secret Agent Snape in OotP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76554 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > This may have been discussed before, and if it has, sorry for double posting. In SS Quirrel talks of Snape trying to stop him from > > finding the SS and thwarting him in his attempt to kill Harry during the quidditch match. He does this while Lord Voldy is attached to the back of his head. Now my question is how is Snape going to pull off being a DE while he was actively trying to stop Lord Voldy from coming back to power in the first book? snip> Now Kneasy:> > > There's a minority of us out here that do not think that Snape has > necessarily returned to being a DE. The evidence militates against it. > 1. Snape starts working for the Order two years before Voldy falls. At this time, it looks as if Voldy is winning. Snape has no need to act as Voldys' agent, especially as:- > 2. For at least one year in that time, Pettigrew is Voldys' informer. > 3. At the mass trials (GoF pensieve scene) Snape is publicly revealed as a baddy turned good. > 4. The Quirrell affair. > > Why should V. trust Snape whatever he says? Sirius in OoP -"No-one > leaves Voldemort and lives." The way V. acts, *anybody* is expendable if he has the slightest doubt or if they don't perform as required. . Snape is definitely up to something, what? is a very good question, but DE? Unlikely I think. Now me: Snape could definitely be spying without being a DE, or pretending to be one--the idea of Snape being an animagus has been much discussed--bat, snake.... But then there's the question of his relationship with Lucius. He could use his Legilimency/Occlumens skills to prevent Lucius from knowing his motives and to get info on the D.E's, but there's still the assumption (from the interactions with Quirrell) that Voldemort knows Snape's betrayal and would forbid D.E's from contacting Snape. Still, as recently as OOTP, Umbridge remarks on Lucius "speaking highly" of Snape. Is Lucius, *GASP* pretending to be a DE? He did keep the other D.E.'s from harming Harry in the Dept. of Mysteries, and he didn't try to find Voldemort after his downfall...of course, there's the muggle-baiting incident at the World Cup, if Draco is to be believed. The Lucius/Snape relationship just doesn't fit if Voldemort knows Snape's betrayal. Ariadne From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Aug 11 16:22:09 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:22:09 -0000 Subject: Evanesco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dradamsapple" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > Just reading the Order of the Phoenix chapter, and found that the > evanesco charm was used to clear up parchments left over from the > recent meeting... Snape uses it to empty cauldrons, and it is Seamus, > I believe who uses it to empty a puke-filled pail. What does evanesco > actually do? Does it move a substance or object to somewhere else or > does it just transfigure it into air (in which case, I would think > it's not permanent)? Thoughts? > > > > -Dan > Dan, > Funny you should ask . . . > > I just recently looked it up upon getting the new "Evanescence" cd. > > go check these out . . . > > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=evanesce > > http://evanescence.com > > > I hope these links work. > > Anna . . . I was also a little surprised to see this spell said in OotP, as it was one that we heard in the film, CoS. I have to assume that maybe JKR gave Kloves the spell so Snape had something to say to get rid of the conjured snake(not just waving the wand). Anyway, we see it several times in OotP and I have to imagine that this is the incantation to the Vanishing Spell. The only queston I have, is to where do things vanish? To a place of which the caster is thinking? If it makes conjured things vanish, do they just go back into nothing? Anyway, I'll stop thinking abou this and go back to my boring old job now..... Arya From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 16:33:13 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:33:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evanesco References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76556 > Just reading the Order of the Phoenix chapter, and found that the evanesco charm was used to clear up parchments left over from the recent meeting... Snape uses it to empty cauldrons, and it is Seamus, I believe who uses it to empty a puke-filled pail. What does evanesco actually do? Does it move a substance or object to somewhere else or does it just transfigure it into air (in which case, I would think it's not permanent)? Thoughts? > > -Dan > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Anna: I just recently looked it up upon getting the new "Evanescence" cd. go check these out . . . http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=evanesce http://evanescence.com I hope these links work. Dan: Yes, they did! Thank you! According to dictionary.com, evanesce is, "to vanish away; to become dissipated and disappear, like vapor." Sounds pretty accurate. The things that evanesco is cast upon "vanish way" and "disappear like vapor." So, first of all, I assume that this is permanent. If I was making some soup that went horribly awry, evanesco would transfigure the liquid into air, but permanently. Right? The spell would not fail and then, a few days later, I wake up to find the stove covered in my old soup? The term "disappear" has confused me throughout the series. I always read it to mean, "make invisible" but the way Mr. Weasley describes the waste in toilets tampered with my anti-muggle pranksters as "not disappearing," the waste is clearly not invisible but just gone. If it is a permanent transfiguration, that would make sense (even though if might be a bit disconcerting to think that you're breathing in potions/waste/scrolls, etc. -Dan, who still thinks that stuff is sent somewhere. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Mon Aug 11 16:34:38 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 12:34:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Death Message-ID: <31D73D91.0768E6A7.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76557 In a message dated 8/10/2003 6:23:40 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Bohcoo writes: > One of the funniest posts I have ever seen on this subject came from > Pippy right after OOP came out when she was explaining all the > foreshadowing about Sirius being the one to die, making the statement > that he all but had the words, "Dead Meat" tatooed on his forehead. > Funny. So-o-o-o funny. Don't have the post number here but > it is > worth looking up. I'd love to read this one. Does anyone recall which post it was? :) Brief Chronicles From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 11 16:38:21 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:38:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: name of Salazar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308111838.21072.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76558 Catlady: > I kept on looking and found some sources: << and http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/S/salazar.html says (among other things): "Well this is what Jaime Kerexeta says in his Diccionario Onomastico y heraldico Vasco. The meaning: is sure that is a basque name; ZAR means old, and SALA is Palace, so te meaning is "The old Palace".">> I've read it and references 1300. Random muslim words from XI-XIIth century, not only in the peninsula (just grab my History Enciclopaedia and copy as they appear): sejucida, almoravide, almohade, omaya, fatimi, abbasida, sunnita, Mu'tasim, samanida,sabuktagin,ghaznavidas, Mahmud, al-biruni, madrasas, ikta, Nizam al-Muk, Malik-Shah, Ayub, and Saladino, Sulaiman, Al-Azhar. Salazar is easily reached from this ones. compare the sound with this: Mutil gazte bat 26 atxilotu dute gaur goizaldean Bilbon, bere bikotekidea ustez erasotzeagatik. Emakumea osasun zentro batera eraman behar izan dute, Ertzaintzaren eta DYAren iturriek Europa Press-i jakinarazi diotenez. Gertakizunak Bilboko Benito Alberdi kalean izan ziren sounds different I'm not a linguistic, but I've looked up the wikipedia: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_language By contact with neighbouring peoples, Basque has borrowed words from Latin, Spanish, French, Gascon etc. Some studies claim that half of its words come from Latin. Some other words are thought to go back to the Stone Age because they include the root haitz- (rock). For example, haiztoa (knife), haizkora (axe). >> SALAZAR > Explicaci?n de los componentes / Osagaien azalpena: > SALA-=SALA > -CASA, PALACIO, CORTIJO > -ZAR=ZAHAR > -VIEJO > is what I got from: > http://www.kaixo.com/euskaletxea/>> Can be, why not, but add this to the picture: >From the RAE www.rae.es (Royal Spanish Academy of Language), standard dictionary, 2001 [Salaz: (Del lat. salax, -?cis). 1. adj. Muy inclinado a la lujuria.] [ -ar (as a particle, not a word): (Del lat. -?ris). 1. suf. En los adjetivos significa condici?n o pertenencia. Espectacular, axilar. 2. suf. En los sustantivos indica el lugar en que abunda el primitivo. Pinar, palomar.] 'He who belongs to lust' or 'place of lust' and [Sala: from germanic 'sal', yes a house, but not from basque.] I don't think the meaning is so clear. That it is a basque surmane doesn't imply it does not come from arabian, latin or germanic. silmariel From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 16:35:41 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:35:41 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Evanesco References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76559 Arya: The only queston I have, is to where do things vanish? To a place of which the caster is thinking? If it makes conjured things vanish, do they just go back into nothing? Anyway, I'll stop thinking abou this and go back to my boring old job now..... Dan: But what happens to things that weren't conjured, like potions ingredients, scrolls, and vomit? They could be permanently turned into air, but I can't get rid of this weird idea that there's a world/dimension out there that's become the wizarding world's trash dump. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 11 16:37:24 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:37:24 -0000 Subject: Pride and Prejudice (it's OT, honest!) In-Reply-To: <20030811151118.95806.qmail@web41803.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Anita Hillin wrote: I began to compare the James/Lily interaction with the proposal scene between Elizabeth and Darcy in P & P, and I was struck with the similarities. James/Darcy is an arrogant, overconfident (not without reason) young man who is smitten with Lily/Elizabeth, and he is rebuffed in no uncertain terms, to the point of saying "You are the last man I'd ever be interested in dating/marrying." Both Lily and Elizabeth also base part of their dislike on the perceived wrongs James/Darcy have perpetrated on a seemingly innocent victim. In Elizabeth's case, we discover the truth about the "victim;" what will we discover in James's case? Pip!Squeak: The James/Darcy parallel is plausible, but I think that in comparing James/Snape to Darcy's treatment of Wickham, you are ignoring the Darcy/Jane Bennet parallels (which, as Wanda points out, may lead us into interesting territory). Darcy is prejudiced against Jane Bennet for what appears to be good reason. She's of doubtful gentility, has the most appalling relatives. He treats her with snobbery and disdain, and nearly ruins her life. James is prejudiced against Snape, and may possibly have what he thinks are good reasons (black magic family). He bullies him, treats him with disdain, and if he was the cause of Snape turning to the DE's, nearly ruined Snape's life. AKH: Without venturing into Sirius/Bingly, Snape/Wickham territory, which is risky at best and foolhardy at worst (however tempting some comparisons may be), I wonder if we will continue to see some parallels. After all, the end result does appear to be the same. Pip!Squeak: Snape is not a Wickham. He might be an anti-Wickham figure though. Wickham is charming. Snape is most certainly not charming. Wickham is described as handsome. Snape is described as ugly. Wickham is personable. Snape has dirty underwear ;-) Wickham deserved Darcy's treatment of him. Snape (apparently) didn't deserve James's treatment of him. Wickham flatters Elizabeth Bennet. Snape insults Lily Evans. Wickham leads a profligate and immoral life and throughout the entire book, shows no sign of repentance. It takes some time for Elizabeth to discover this. Snape's racist views are immediately obvious to Lily Evans. His biased and sadistic behaviour is immediately obvious to Harry. What it takes Harry some time to discover is that he is showing signs of turning against (repenting?) his DE past. I hesitate to call Snape Mr Darcy ::blinks in vague horror:: but Snape starts off with Lily in pretty much the same way Darcy starts off with Elizabeth in the Assembly Rooms. He insults her. He's prejudiced against her because of her background. Again, it's anti- Wickham, not Wickham (who is a flatterer). So Snape may have the Wickham role of `distrust first impressions', but in characterisation he is very much an anti-Wickham. James's `Darcy' role may parallel more Elizabeth's *correct* assessment of Darcy, who *was* arrogant, and rude, and interfering. The point with Darcy was that his good qualities outweighed his bad ones; and when his bad qualities were pointed out to him he was capable of recognising that he needed to change. Presumably, since James became Head Boy, he changed from the `worst memory' scene. Like Darcy, his good qualities outweighed his bad ones. But if Snape is an `anti-Wickham' then he will also continue to change in our perception. Wickham appeared nice, and moral, and hard done by, but underneath was morally rotten and incapable of remorse. Snape appears nasty, and sadistic, and to have deserved every bad thing he's ever got, but underneath Pip!Squeak From C_fax at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 16:57:20 2003 From: C_fax at hotmail.com (ceefax2002) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:57:20 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini (Slytherin boy) theory based on his first name. Another theoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76561 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "neith_seshat" > wrote: > > Hi all, > Snip> > > The theory: Blaise is the name of Merlin's tutor, who helped him > to become the wizard he was, instead of an evil devilish wizard. I > think it could make sense to name a child after Merlin's tutor. > > What do you think? > > > > Neith > > It may sound corny, but given JKR's way of playing with names, could > Blaise be the one to "blaze the way" for Slytherin? > Ravenclaw Bookworm Personally, I think Blaise's going to be a red herring. Bear in mind that he/she/it (I lean towards he, but that's just my problem ^_^) has only been mentioned once, at the sorting ceremony in Philosopher's Stone (is that right? I don't recall any other mentions...). For all we know, it/she/he could've transferred to Beauxbatons in the second year, or something. If I was JKR, seeing as how all the fans in the world (or on the internet, at least) have latched on to her/him, I'd forget about him/her, just to be unexpected. But I'm probably wrong... After all, we do need a Slytherin character that isn't a complete goit, and all the Slytherins with personalities so far need hitting with large mallets. Unless we get an entirely new character showing up in book 6/7 like Luna did, Blaise could very well blaze the way... Ceefax (thinking that she should really stop undermining her own points like this) From o_caipora at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 17:12:56 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:12:56 -0000 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76562 Emily Rose wrote: > My thoughts are that a plane full of muggles would never be able to fly over > the stadium at all. Arthur Weasley described a charm that made muggles > suddenly remember they had to do something else whenever they approached the > stadium so that they turned around. I expect that that would apply in the > plane and the pilots would suddenly need to make a course correction or > return to the airport or something. Two similar examples from fiction come to mind. In _The Diamond as Big as the Ritz_, F. Scott Fitzgerald had a place that was unmapped because surveying instruments with a slight error had been substituted for the mapmakers' usual tools. This didn't work against airplanes, though, which was important to the plot. In "True Names", Vernor Vinge's protagonist was able to confuse a modern military force because all of their GPS devices, maps, communications, etc. worked through a computer network, and the protagonist had subverted the network. The avoidance spell is canon. Also, of all magical powers, that of illusion is the most common. A pilot could simply feel like changing his route, or if he flew over the stadium, could see something else. Some twenty years ago I read a book on Dungeons and Dragons (alas I do not recall the title) whose author had a firm grasp of the principles rather than the details of such games. One recommendation he made to adventurers is to always carry . . . a winch. For springing booby traps, moving immovable objects, or what have you, "a winch is a wonderful thing." Straightforward mechanical contrivances trump any number of magical or physical obstacles. It's clear that simple physical processes (e.g. burning at the stake) are perfectly effective against wizards. Why shouldn't any sort of bomb work at Hogwarts? - Caipora From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 17:32:45 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:32:45 -0000 Subject: Evanesco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Arya: > The only queston I have, is to > where do things vanish? To a place of which the caster is thinking? > If it makes conjured things vanish, do they just go back into > nothing? Anyway, I'll stop thinking abou this and go back to my > boring old job now..... > > Dan: > But what happens to things that weren't conjured, like potions ingredients, scrolls, and vomit? They could be permanently turned into air, but I can't get rid of this weird idea that there's a world/dimension out there that's become the wizarding world's trash dump. > -Dan > Just in passing, how does this tie in with "scourgify"? Or is that just a !clearing up" type of spell? From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 17:36:23 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:36:23 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini (Slytherin boy) theory based on his first name. Another theoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76564 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ceefax2002" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "neith_seshat" > > wrote: > > > Hi all, > > Snip> > > > The theory: Blaise is the name of Merlin's tutor, who helped him > > to become the wizard he was, instead of an evil devilish wizard. I > > think it could make sense to name a child after Merlin's tutor. > > > What do you think? > > > > > > Neith > > > > It may sound corny, but given JKR's way of playing with names, could > > Blaise be the one to "blaze the way" for Slytherin? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > > > Personally, I think Blaise's going to be a red herring. Bear in mind > that he/she/it (I lean towards he, but that's just my problem ^_^) has > only been mentioned once, at the sorting ceremony in Philosopher's > Stone (is that right? I don't recall any other mentions...). For all > we know, it/she/he could've transferred to Beauxbatons in the second > year, or something. > > If I was JKR, seeing as how all the fans in the world (or on the > internet, at least) have latched on to her/him, I'd forget about > him/her, just to be unexpected. > > But I'm probably wrong... After all, we do need a Slytherin character > that isn't a complete goit, and all the Slytherins with personalities > so far need hitting with large mallets. Unless we get an entirely new > character showing up in book 6/7 like Luna did, Blaise could very well > blaze the way... > > Ceefax > (thinking that she should really stop undermining her own points like > this) I would imagine that Zabini is a boy (as per the thread title). Blaise was not only Merlin's tutor but also the first name of the notable mathematician Blaise Pascal.... Geoff From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 17:41:06 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:41:06 -0000 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" wrote: > Emily Rose wrote: > It's clear that simple physical processes (e.g. burning at the stake) > are perfectly effective against wizards. Why shouldn't any sort of > bomb work at Hogwarts? > > - Caipora We are never told if witches and wizards are burned at the stake, are we? Well, if muggles tried to capture a wizard or witch, do you think the witch or wizard would allow it? Isn't a witch or wizard easily able to over power a muggle? The ones burned at the stake during the witch trials were only accused of witchcraft or wizardry, not neccessarily real witches or wizards, probably just muggles in the wrong place at the wrong time. A WW witch or wizard would probably just disapparate or work a memory charm on the offending muggles (or any other type of spell)to effect their escape. What I am saying is, if the bomb was wizard in nature then yes, if it was muggle in nature then no. Muggle technologies seem to malfunction in the WW. Even the criminals of the WW are impossible for the muggles to catch, hence the need for aurors. Laws of physics need not apply, seems most of the items in the WW are "physically impossible" anyways. Severus Snape From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 11 17:49:31 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:49:31 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re-reading References: <1060558074.6624.77553.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001801c36030$ed56eee0$de516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 76566 Geoff: > But not everybody is named. Surely Crabbe and Goyle are in the same > year as Malfoy but are not named at that point in the book. Indeed so. And having got from there to here we can fill in a lot more names besides. But I was casting back to the perspective of the very first book (which does a remarkable amount of scene-setting, description, and so on) and still feel that the _impression we are meant to come away with_ is that the houses shake down roughly equally. Now I certainly wouldn't want to argue that that is definite proof one way or the other. But my reading of it is that it is "essential background" rather than something that we are meant to look behind and see something quite different. You may think otherwise, of course :-) Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 17:50:56 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:50:56 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76567 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > There's been lots of commentary on Snape's grey underwear, but I > noticed that in GoF chapter 25, Snape is walking about the castle at > night in a long grey nightshirt. Now, whatever his circumstances as > a boy, he can't now be too poor to afford new clothes. Now me: In the beginning of SS, prior to Harry receiving his letter, we find Petunia dyeing some of Dudley's old clothes for Harry's school uniform, and they are described as grey. (can't remember the exact quote, and I am at work). Maybe at least while he was at school, Snape also had to suffer by wearing hand-me-downs. When I first read this thread, I immediately made a connection with Harry, even though there may not actually be one there. Mhershey From kewiromeo at aol.com Mon Aug 11 17:55:34 2003 From: kewiromeo at aol.com (kewiromeo at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 13:55:34 EDT Subject: Harry and Voldy Message-ID: <46.3c429c5b.2c693296@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76568 What does The Order know that Voldy doesn't? What is it about the prophesy that made it so interesting that Voldy goes nuts and sacrifices half of his inner circle just to try and get his hands on it? All it says is that the boy will be marked and he will have powers the Dark Lord knows not. Why would this be a weapon? Tzvi of Brooklyn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 18:00:57 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:00:57 -0000 Subject: OoP, Neville & Harry and their 'connection' - foreshadowing In-Reply-To: <20030811083019.98070.qmail@web20006.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vanessa Heggie wrote: > Ooh, now we have three connections > > 1) my original comment about Harry's choice of secret > identity on the night bus > > 2) Annemehr said: > >Yes, there is at least one. In GoF, Ch. 31, after > Harry had seen > >the trial of the DEs who had tortured the Longbottoms > he is lying > >awake in bed relating Neville's plight to his own. > > 3) and Julie/farmcatnow said > >There seem to be A LOT of Harry/Neville references > now that I am re- > >reading the books. One that strikes me (because I am > 1/2 way through > >PoA) When he is worried about quiddich, Harry has a > dream where he > >forgot to go to the game and they replaced him with > Neville. > > A fourth, and one which may be very significant, is > that the sorting hat also took a long time to deal > with Neville, in PS, just as it did with Harry. > > Perhaps we should gather these somewhere... > > Vanessa And here is another, from GoF: After the DADA lesson in which Moody/Crouch demonstrated the Unforgivable Curses, Harry lays in bed thinking, and JKR mentions that if Harry had been paying attention, the lack of snoring from Neville's bed would have indicated that not everyone in the dorm was sleeping. Mhershey > > > ______________________________________________________________________ __ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 18:08:33 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:08:33 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldren, real location? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76570 I know this is strange, but has anyone who is a resident of London, gone looking for the physical address of the Leaky Cauldren? Using any information JKR used in the book? I thought it would be fun to know what is actually sitting there. I did the same thing for Anne Rice's books that took place in New Orleans, and it was very interesting to be able to truly visualinze the exact location she was writting about. Just wondering. Severus "from evil" Snape From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 11 18:19:15 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:19:15 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: name of Salazar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308112019.15155.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76571 Catlady: > and http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/S/salazar.html says (among > other things): "Well this is what Jaime Kerexeta says in his > Diccionario Onomastico y heraldico Vasco. > The meaning: is sure that is a basque name; ZAR means old, and SALA is > Palace, so te meaning is "The old Palace"." Sorry, I misread. The first reference date is 1344, but the line goes from before. >From http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/S/salazar.htm [[ El origen de este noble y antiguo linaje es como sigue: arribaron a Santona dos hermanos naturales de Normandis, estableciendose el mayor en el lugar de Salazar, del Ayuntamiento de la Merindad de Castilla la Vieja y partido de Villarcayo (Burgos), y el segundo en el lugar de El Tobar (Burgos) ]] Translation: The origin from the linage: two brothers from Normandis arrived at Santona, the older settled in Salazar, Castilla la vieja (Burgos), the younger in El Tobar (Burgos) I don't know how the author concludes from this that Salazar is a basque name. It seems to be from Burgos, Castilla the Old. I've found another page that cites dates, here http://www.geocities.com/salazarisaias/ [[Salazar es un apellido topon?mico de origen sefardita-castellano, del valle de dicho nombre, en la provincia de Burgos, Comunidad Aut?noma de Castilla y Le?n, Espa?a. El fundador de ?ste linaje fue Galindo de Salazar, primer se?or de aquel valle. Tuvo entre otros hijos a Mart?n Galindez de Salazar, segundo Se?or de Salazar en el a?o 884]] Translated: Salazar is a toponimic with sephardite-castillian origin, from the valley of the same name, in Burgos, in Comunity of Castilla and Leon. Founder was Galindo de S, first lord of the valley. One of his sons was Mart?n Galindo de S, second lord of S in 884. And here is more information, from http://www.sephardim.com/namelist.shtml?mode=form&from=S&to=S&Search=Search [[ Salazar(1)(2)(3)(6c)(9)(14)(29) (~): upload completed (1) From the civil records of Amsterdam, The Netherlands.(~) (2) From the records of Bevis Marks, The Spanish and Portuguese Congregation of London.(~) (3) From the burial register of Bethahaim Velho Cemetery, Published by the Jewish Historical Society of England.(~) (6c) Reports the names of people who appeared before the inquisition in El Peru.(~) (9) From the book, "Precious Stones of the Jews of Curacao Jewry 1657-1957.(~) (14) From the publication, "Los Sefardes", by Jose M. Estrugo. Published by Editorial Lex La Habana, 1958. (Apellidos corrientes entre los Sephardies)(~) (29) "Sangre Judia" ("Jewish Blood") by Pere Bonnin. A list of 3,500 Jewish names as created and defined by the Holy Office (la Santo Oficio) of Spain. The list is a result of a census of Jewish communities of Spain by the Catholic Church. All the names listed here are those of Jewish origin. ]] Don't seems basque. silmariel From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 18:17:25 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:17:25 -0000 Subject: FILK: Mundungus Man Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76572 FILK: Mundungus Man To the tune of Billy Joel's "Piano Man" (Dedicated to those characters mentioned in passing in earlier books who receive fuller development later in the series.) It's Twelve Grimmauld Place on my first day Dumbledore's old crowd shuffles in There's a rag pile sitting next to me Making love to his tobacco tin He says, "Son, I owe you an apology But I had a real need to flee See, I would not have left Except I was to net A business opportunity" Puff on your pipe you're the Mundungus Man Puff on your pipe tonight Well we're not in the mood for a smelly cloud And you've got us feeling uptight Now Sirius was my father's best friend He sometimes confuses me And he's quick to confess or to clean up the mess But there's someplace that he'd rather be He says, "Harry, I think this is killing me" As a smile ran away from his face "Well, I'm sure that I could help the Order out If I could get out of this place" Now Lupin is an unemployed werewolf For whom there is no lasting cure And he's talking with brother Bill, who's with Gringotts still And probably will marry Fleur And Fred and George are practicing magic tricks As Mrs. Weasley quickly gets mad They have a talent for making happiness Which is better than keeping us sad Cut us a deal you're the Mundungus Man Cut us a deal tonight Well we're not in the mood for a pleaseman bust And you've got us feeling uptight It takes a skillful crowd to fight Death Eaters And Mr. Weasley gives me a smile `Cause he knows it's my fate to be Voldemort's bait To rid the world of wizards so vile And the Black portraits sound like a carnival And the door handle looks like a snake And they sit at the table and dole stew with a ladle And say "When will we get our big break?" Stay on your guard you're the Mundungus Man Stay on your guard tonight We're not in the mood for a dementor's kiss And you've got us feeling uptight ~Phyllis who has caught filker's fever! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 18:22:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:22:20 -0000 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Emily Rose > wrote: > > > on 8/9/03 1:05 AM, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com at > > > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > > > > > >> > > > My theory is that in the magical world, the laws of physics > > > don't necessarily apply. > > > I agree with the above statement, but that is only when Physics' > laws need to be broken or bent to provide the result the woutch or > wizard is after. > > > > A bomb for many reasons would work, but only if the laws of physics > were left to their own ends. But if the bomb was to be dropped over > the stadium, the laws of physics no longer apply, since physics > rules that you cannot fly on a broom, bludgers would not be self > propelled or semi intelligent, the bomb could fall without the big > bang created by the rules of physics, or it could dissappartate to a > safe location, or not even fall at all. ...edited... > > Severus "visual mathmatician" Snape bboy_mn: Our pathetic earthly knowledge of chemistry and physics is horrible incomplete. The atomic model for chemistry, which models atoms like little solar systems, falls apart when you apply it to electronics. In electronics to make our belief in physics work, we use the 'Tinker Toy' model. I think the techinical name might be covalent bonds. (It's been a while since I was in College.) Even Einstein's Theory of Relativity is incomplete. Einstein spent most if his life trying to resolve what I believe was called the Unified Field Theory. The theory that resolves all the inconsistencies of modern physics. So, it could just as easily be that the wizard world has tapped into the full potential of the physical world. A full potential that we are mere muggles will not resolve for many many centuries. It's just a thought. bboy_mn From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Aug 11 18:24:16 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:24:16 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76574 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sara_ELL" wrote: > Wanda wrote: > > > There's been lots of commentary on Snape's grey underwear, > > possibly grey clothes> > > Wanda, > > As much as I hate to admit it (slurring the name of Snape and all of > that), I have to point out that in order for laundry to become > laundry, it has to be removed from the wearer's body and placed in a > designated location, usually called "a laundry basket". Lily's > retort to troubled-teenage-upsidedown!Snape is of course, is the > implication that he has not managed to acquire the level of hygiene > associated with regular laundering of undergarments, hence greying > underwear. > > Actually - as an aside, this may be another thing that troubled- > teenage!Snape has with highly-troubled-teenage!Harry, if you read > the article put out on "The Leaky Cauldron" website which recalls > the number of times Harry is mentioned bathing or cleaning himself > in the series and finds it... lacking. > > The long grey nightshirt is, by extrapolation therefore somewhat > troubling as in my deepest of hearts, I really, really would hope > that Snape would have mastered the art of bathing by the age 35 (or > however old he is meant to be). I shall comfort myself with the > thought that Snape's nightshirt, neither black nor white, is a > reflection of his character itself - mysterious and grey. > > *** > Sara-ELL (who cannot argue with your logic of nice, soft and comfy > old flannel jammies) I think we are reading too much into all this - let's face it it would have totally destroyed his image if he'd had "a dazzling white freshly laundered and starched nightshirt" or "silk pyjamas and a maroon silk dressing gown" or "bikini scanties". He may crave good nightwear and underwear the way I crave good red wine of a night, but he's is just not going to cut it as the resident spooky guy if he dresses up better. My own advice to him would be that black undies and nightwear would improve his image a helluva lot - and would go with all his other black stuff. Just a thought. June "It is a comfort in wretchedness to have companions in woe" Christopher Marlowe, Dr Faustus From manawydan at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 11 18:23:49 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:23:49 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re-reading References: <1060602945.4690.84522.m1@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003401c36035$b5e012c0$de516751@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 76575 bboy_mn: >But I will add, I don't think the memory in OotP was Snape's worst >memory. Remember he put several in the Pensieve. But it was the memory >that most moved the plot forward. Harry now has empathy for Snape. He >understands that his Dad, James, wasn't a saint. True. It was the phrase about the "odd, twisted smile" and the particular time of year that the encounter occurred that led me to link the two. Of course, in PS/SS, Harry has no idea that Snape is anything other than the bad guy... >If Quirrel wasn't to fussed about it, why should Volemort be? There >was nothing to stop Quirrel or to stop Voldemort from forcing Quirrel >to turn around and give the Weasley brothers a month of detentions. It's not said _who_ gave the twins the punishment so your suggestion could well be how it worked out. But Quirrel would have had to punish within the confines of the school rules (admittedly that gives him considerable scope). And though Voldemort would certainly have had other things on his mind, I don't think _I'd_ want to pelt a snowball at him "ah, come on Tommy, mate, where's your sense of fun"! >Students are all those nameless faceless people who are milling around >in the background. Student characters are students who have a presents >in the story, a presents in that they are named, a presents in the >form of spoken lines, or lines being spoken about them, or reaction >'shots'. But there are several names mentioned who really _haven't_ been developed as characters (as our frequent discussions about Blaise Zabini on this list show - I'd put Boot and Abbott in roughly the same category. Meanwhile, students like Ernie MacMillan and the Patil sisters _have_ been developed even though their houses weren't mentioned in the original list. As I commented to Geoff a couple of postings ago, my own reading of this passage is that it's scene-setting and that we are meant to come away with the idea that the houses shake down roughly equally. Though I don't think that your split is too far distant from my own mental picture (I'd probably see more Slyths and fewer Huffles, but that's just my personal view. >So, in the examply you cite, Percy is directing them to a stairway >that will take the students to the single room to which they have been >assigned. That was indeed the point that I was highlighting - that it was a single room and there was no indication that there were any "hidden Griffs" in other dorms. There are just the 5 first years that we've met. Cheers FFred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 11 18:26:59 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:26:59 -0000 Subject: Lucius and Snape (was Secret Agent Snape in OotP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > > > wrote: > > > This may have been discussed before, and if it has, sorry for > double posting. In SS Quirrel talks of Snape trying to stop him from > > > finding the SS and thwarting him in his attempt to kill Harry > during the quidditch match. He does this while Lord Voldy is > attached to the back of his head. Now my question is how is Snape > going to pull off being a DE while he was actively trying to stop > Lord Voldy from coming back to power in the first book? snip> Ariadne says: > Now me: Snape could definitely be spying without being a DE, or > pretending to be one--the idea of Snape being an animagus has been > much discussed--bat, snake.... > > But then there's the question of his relationship with Lucius. He > could use his Legilimency/Occlumens skills to prevent Lucius from > knowing his motives and to get info on the D.E's, but there's still > the assumption (from the interactions with Quirrell) that Voldemort > knows Snape's betrayal and would forbid D.E's from contacting Snape. > Still, as recently as OOTP, Umbridge remarks on Lucius "speaking > highly" of Snape. Is Lucius, *GASP* pretending to be a DE? He did > keep the other D.E.'s from harming Harry in the Dept. of Mysteries, > and he didn't try to find Voldemort after his downfall...of course, > there's the muggle-baiting incident at the World Cup, if Draco is to be believed. > The Lucius/Snape relationship just doesn't fit if Voldemort knows > Snape's betrayal. Ariadne Me: The LV/Lucius/Snape relationship as described above makes perfect sense if LV knows Snape if spying and is choosing to use it to his advantage. It is not necessary for LV to let Lucius know this especially if LV mistrusts Lucius, which I believe he does. (GoF LV calls Lucius "My slippery friend.") Lucius isn't stupid but he is arrogant and legitimately powerful enough within the WW to be a potential danger to LV and it is certainly to LV to advantage to have something on Lucius to use if necessary. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 11 18:36:05 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:36:05 -0000 Subject: Harry and Voldy In-Reply-To: <46.3c429c5b.2c693296@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > What does The Order know that Voldy doesn't? What is it about the prophesy that made it so interesting that Voldy goes nuts and sacrifices half of his inner circle just to try and get his hands on it? All it says is that the boy will be marked and he will have powers the Dark Lord knows not. Why would this be a weapon? > Tzvi of Brooklyn Knowledge itself is a weapon besides Voldemort knows there is more to the Prophesy but doen't know what that is. He franticly searching for anything he can get his hands on to destroy Harry Potter. Everyday LV waits, Harry get stronger and closer to manhood and harder to kill. For all Voldemort knows the Prophesy names the way to kill Harry or names the way Harry will kill LV. Voldemort just wants any and all info on the future he can find. Mandy From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Mon Aug 11 18:38:27 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:38:27 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black is Stubby Boardman???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76578 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "barbara_mbowen" wrote: > Forgive me if this has been discussed before; I read as many > posts as I can, but...! > > I noticed that Regulus Black, Sirius' kid brother and murdered > DE, had a date of death "fifteen years previously" (p.112). And > Stubby Boardman "retired from public life after being struck in > the ear by a turnip...nearly fifteen years ago" (p192). Maybe > Regulus is in hiding, impersonating Stubby? Maybe the REAL > Stubby was Regulus all along? Or maybe Stubby died from the > turnip in the ear, and Regulus, on the run from Voldemort, > knowing he would get no protection from the MoM, took Stubby's > identity. Why hasn't he come out of hiding since? Well, maybe > he likes being Stubby? Or, maybe he's still scared, both of > Voldy's old supporters and the MoM (big brother Sirius being the > most notorious prisoner in Azkaban probably didn't help...) > > Probably not true, but wouldn't it be fun if Stubby, AKA Regulus > Black, turns up in Book Six? > > Marmelade's Mom Regulus being Stubby Boardman is an interesting theory, but one that did not come to my mind. When Harry mentioned Sirius's name, it was Luna who said to him "you mean Stubby Boardman?" I think it might be important to consider the source JKR used to introduce this new clue to the story. Why did SHE mention Stubby? Does or did Stubby have something to do with The Quibbler and/or her father? My theory is that Sirius may have been using the pseudonym Stubby Boardman (same initials) in order to be secretive (and we all know that Sirius had many things to be secretive about). I think Sirius may have been leading a sort of double life under that name. The only thing i don't like about my theory is that Stubby is now gone as well... I am hoping that there was some sort of switching spell involved and it was Stubby rather than Sirius that Bellatrix finished off! Brookeshanks :o) From Lynx412 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 18:46:52 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:46:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Voldy Message-ID: <148.1709bdf1.2c693e9c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76579 In a message dated 8/11/03 1:58:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kewiromeo at aol.com writes: > What does The Order know that Voldy doesn't? What is it about the prophesy > that made it so interesting that Voldy goes nuts and sacrifices half of his > inner circle just to try and get his hands on it? All it says is that the > boy will > be marked and he will have powers the Dark Lord knows not. Why would this be > > a weapon? > Because it also implies that *ONLY* Harry and LV can kill each other. Voldy is save as long as he avoids Harry and doesn't provoke Harry into coming for him. LV could set a different trap to lure and kill Harry knowing this...and might even stop blaming his DEs for blowing things when they can't actually kill Harry. He could try to force Harry to sacrifice himself for his friends or even get one of his DEs to permenantly cripple/incapacitate Harry a la the Longbottoms. LV knowing the whole prophecy is very dangerous to Harry and the Order as Voldy no longer needs to fear them killing him, freeing him up to pick them off one-by-one. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 11 18:50:18 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:50:18 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black is Stubby Boardman???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "barbara_mbowen" > wrote: > > Forgive me if this has been discussed before; I read as many > > posts as I can, but...! > > > > I noticed that Regulus Black, Sirius' kid brother and murdered > > DE, had a date of death "fifteen years previously" (p.112). And > > Stubby Boardman "retired from public life after being struck in > > the ear by a turnip...nearly fifteen years ago" (p192). Maybe > > Regulus is in hiding, impersonating Stubby? Maybe the REAL > > Stubby was Regulus all along? Or maybe Stubby died from the > > turnip in the ear, and Regulus, on the run from Voldemort, > > knowing he would get no protection from the MoM, took Stubby's > > identity. Why hasn't he come out of hiding since? Well, maybe > > he likes being Stubby? Or, maybe he's still scared, both of > > Voldy's old supporters and the MoM (big brother Sirius being the > > most notorious prisoner in Azkaban probably didn't help...) > > > > Probably not true, but wouldn't it be fun if Stubby, AKA Regulus > > Black, turns up in Book Six? > > > > Marmelade's Mom > > > > > Regulus being Stubby Boardman is an interesting theory, but one that > did not come to my mind. When Harry mentioned Sirius's name, it was > Luna who said to him "you mean Stubby Boardman?" I think it might be > important to consider the source JKR used to introduce this new clue > to the story. Why did SHE mention Stubby? Does or did Stubby have > something to do with The Quibbler and/or her father? My theory is > that Sirius may have been using the pseudonym Stubby Boardman (same > initials) in order to be secretive (and we all know that Sirius had > many things to be secretive about). I think Sirius may have been > leading a sort of double life under that name. The only thing i > don't like about my theory is that Stubby is now gone as well... I am > hoping that there was some sort of switching spell involved and it > was Stubby rather than Sirius that Bellatrix finished off! > Brookeshanks :o) Now me: Now I say this gently but firmly: Sirius is not coming back! Unfortunate, but a fact of life is death. :-( We know for a fact that Sirius was in Azkaban for 13 years so he was definatly not Stubby during that time. But I love the idea that Sirius disguised himself as Stubby while he was on the run. After all he had to eat and live some how. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 18:51:05 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:51:05 -0000 Subject: Lucius and Snape (was Secret Agent Snape in OotP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76581 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" > > But then there's the question of his (Snape's) relationship with Lucius. He could use his Legilimency/Occlumens skills to prevent Lucius from knowing his motives and to get info on the D.E's, but there'still the assumption (from the interactions with Quirrell) that Voldemort knows Snape's betrayal and would forbid D.E's from contacting Snape. > > Still, as recently as OOTP, Umbridge remarks on Lucius "speaking highly" of Snape. Is Lucius, *GASP* pretending to be a DE? He did > > keep the other D.E.'s from harming Harry in the Dept. of Mysteries, and he didn't try to find Voldemort after his downfall...of course, there's the muggle-baiting incident at the World Cup, if Draco is to be believed.The Lucius/Snape relationship just doesn't fit if Voldemort knows Snape's betrayal. >Mandy: The LV/Lucius/Snape relationship as described above makes perfect sense if LV knows Snape if spying and is choosing to use it to his advantage. It is not necessary for LV to let Lucius know this > especially if LV mistrusts Lucius, which I believe he does. (GoF LV > calls Lucius "My slippery friend.") Lucius isn't stupid but he is > arrogant and legitimately powerful enough within the WW to be a > potential danger to LV and it is certainly to LV to advantage to have something on Lucius to use if necessary. Ariadne again: I'm just wondering why Lucius would so openly support Snape, even after Dumbledore has vouched for him as a "past DE" in open trials. Lucius could be doing this on orders from Voldemort, but then, Snape is no fool...he would surely pick up on this fairly quickly. Of course, Snape already knows there's a huge risk involved as pointed out by Dumbledore in GOF, so that wouldn't necessarily stop him. I agree with you that Voldy doesn't trust Lucius (or anyone, it appears!), but he does see his usefulness. So, I'm back to Ex-DE! Lucius. Any supporters out there?!? Not since the beginning of course (the diary in COS doesn't support it), just since GOF and the return of Voldemort. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 18:52:01 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:52:01 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldren, real location? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > I know this is strange, but has anyone who is a resident of London, > gone looking for the physical address of the Leaky Cauldren? Using > any information JKR used in the book? ...edited... > > Severus "from evil" Snape bboy_mn: I really don't think there is enough information to nail it down. It's not like number 10 Charing Cross Road (which of course is a real street on the east edge of Soho in London). All we know is that it is on Charing Cross Road which is not a very long street, and that it is between a book store and a record shop. People have gone there and found a relatively non-discript building between a record shop and book store and photographed it, but I can't remember where I saw the photo. Don't know if it means anything to you but the City of London traffic control has what are called Jam Cams; web cameras on two Charing Cross Road intersections. In case, you would like to look for yourself. Cut and pasted from one of my post in the HP Off-Topic Group- Here are some good examples- General UK Web Cams- http://www.ukwebcameras.co.uk/ Family friendly (inoffensive) Web cam; 100's of them. General World Web Cams- http://www.earthcam.com/ Has a search feature that will allow you to search 'London', 'UK', 'England', etc.... This is a directory so it redirects you to other web cam sights. From what I can tell to see anything that might be offensive, you have to have a username and password. SOHO Cam- http://www.camvista.com/england/london/latino01.php3 Cameras updates the image reasonably fast, but the camera also rotates periodically so you aren't constantly looking at the same scene. BBC Jam Cams- http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/travel/jamcams/north_central.shtml These are traffic cameras in London (get it? Jam Cam ->Traffic Jam), although the BBC sight has lists of other nationwide web cams (A nice one in Torquay). On the page link I have given you, on the bottom right of the map are 6 camera location configured in a small arc with two more cameras just to the right of them. In the arc, the two middle cameras are Charring Cross Road. There are more on or near Charring Cross, but they aren't operational right now. Just passing it along. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 18:59:32 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:59:32 -0000 Subject: Harry and Voldy In-Reply-To: <46.3c429c5b.2c693296@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76583 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, kewiromeo at a... wrote: > What does The Order know that Voldy doesn't? What is it about the prophesy > that made it so interesting that Voldy goes nuts and sacrifices half of his > inner circle just to try and get his hands on it? All it says is that the boy will > be marked and he will have powers the Dark Lord knows not. Why would this be > a weapon? > > Tzvi of Brooklyn > The whole point is that Voldemort /doesn't/ know what the prophecy says. He obviously realised after the "disaster" when Harry was one that he hadn't got the whole story. Presumably, he still doesn't know the whole of it. Geoff From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 11 19:11:56 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:11:56 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Leaky Cauldren, real location? References: Message-ID: <002d01c3603c$6fb457a0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76584 From: severusbook4 I know this is strange, but has anyone who is a resident of London, gone looking for the physical address of the Leaky Cauldren? Using any information JKR used in the book.<> ------------- The descriptions are probably too vague, so unless there is some evidence in an interview or the like, all I could see was that it is not too far from a Tube station, but not that close, on a reasonably large street comprising of a wide variety shops and facilities. Considering that the shops that flank it could well change use as well (as in JKR could have been describing her memory of a place, which has since changed). That description could fit dozens of places, although I should think it would have to be one of the smaller stations, as one of the ones with lots of platforms, miles of corridors or more impressive ticket halls would probably have been remembered by Harry as it was the first time he'd been on the Tube. I mean, we don't even know which side of the river it is on, let alone the borough. Dawn Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 11 19:23:27 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:23:27 -0000 Subject: Lucius and Snape (was Secret Agent Snape in OotP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76585 Ariadne says: So, I'm back to Ex-DE! Lucius. Any supporters out there?!? Not since the beginning of course the diary in COS doesn't support it), just since GOF and the return of Voldemort. Me: If not a DE where do you think Lucius stands? I don't agree with the ex-DE Lucius but I do believe Lucius switches sides and supports whomever is on top and therefore can advance himself, his son and family name for future generations. (He did warned Draco, in one of the books I can't remeber which, PS I think, about the danger of alienating Harry as Harry is considered the 'saviour' of the WW.) Lucius was definatly a DE during the first war, weasled out of any responsiblity after LV defeat by baby Harry, and now I think he is back where he really belongs, with Voldemort. But I'm very interested in hearing your thought on Ex-DE Lucius. Or just point me in the direction of your other posts if I have missed them. Mandy. From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 11 19:44:43 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:44:43 -0000 Subject: Who were Lily's Hogwarts friends? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76586 I'm throwing around ideas I've had in my head for a while about Lily Evans' friends. We know, or hope at least, that Lily's story, whatever that may be, is coming in books 6 and 7. And as we've found out a lot of information about James through his friends and enemies what about Lily's? Lily had to have had girl friends in school and most likely one particular girlfriend. I'm sure all of you other female fans out there, like me, know just how close school age girlfriends can be. What do you think of any of the names we've heard so far? We haven't heard many, but there is Emmaline Vance and Dorcas Meadows who is unfortunatly deceased, could they hold ties to Lily? Or I've wondered about the Black sisters, who had to have been at Hogwarts too, and in particularly Narcissa, who seems to me the youngest and most likely the same age. I have a crazy idea that Narcissa could have been Lily's best friend in school and is a keeper of Lily's story. I would love to know what you all think? Mandy, an obsessed Lily fan. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 11 14:35:35 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:35:35 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape in OotP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76587 --- "severusbook4" wrote: > In SS, Quirrel talks of Snape trying to stop him from > finding the SS and thwarting him in his attempt to kill Harry > during the quidditch match. He does this while Lord Voldy is > attached to the back of his head. So how is Snape going to pull > off being a DE while he was actively trying to stop Lord Voldy from > coming back to power in the first book? Lord Voldy had to hear the > conversations Quirrell had with Snape and Harry, and he is probably > pretty angry about a former DE being against him.(serious > understatement) IMHO I think Snape is toast, Lord Voldy is just > trailing him on, until his usefulness runs out, Snape must be > feeding him some information, just nothing very critical to the > OotP, just enough to keep him alive. What does everyone else > think? This has been bothering me after re-reading the SS. ANSWER: Voldi was left without knowing who suppoeted him for many years. Even though Snape WAS a Death Eater, Voldi didn't know if he could trust Snape enough in PS/SS to reveal that he was attatched to Quirrel's head. Snape thought he was thwarting Quirrel from stealing the Stone that could create Gold. He had no knowledge that Voldi was there. After all, Snape cornered Quirrel and almost threatened him saying, "You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell." (not the sort of thing anyone is brave enough to say to Voldemort himself.) After Harry faced Voldi in that book, everyone heard of the Quirrel/Voldi connection - Snape too. When Snape returned, he didn't go naively. He had to explain in a way Voldi liked. Part of what Snape took to Voldi was the same thing he gave Voldi before the Lord's downfall - an inside agent close to the only wizard Voldi feared, Dumbledore. - and now, also, the only person who survived the Dark Lord's assasination attempt, Harry. Does Voldi plan to kill Snape? Voldi cares about power, not people. The only thing that could save him is if JKR has other plans for Snape. Norbert's Mummy / aussie From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 11 19:47:27 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:47:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Symbolism: The Four Houses of Hogwarts and Liberation Message-ID: <20030811194727.90552.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76588 In previous messages I have expounded my theory that HP is the timeless story of human liberation. The posts include 55793, 55907, 56071, 56254, 56477, 67775, 70287, 70318 and others. Time pressure has prevented me from explaining my theories in greater depth. However the number of positive reactions has greatly encouraged me and now Id like to look at the four houses as an aspect of the Path of Liberation which, according to my theory, is the purpose of life. Probably the most recent roadmap to liberation before HP was the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosencreutz published in Strasbourg in 1616. In my posts I have pointed out the many similarities in the two stories. Harry at the beginning of his sojourn at Hogwarts is sorted into one of four houses. CRC at the beginning of his journey is sorted into one of four paths. Both achieve this sorting through a choice they make. Harry does so by rejecting what he considers wrong. CRC does the same thing. To both of them apply the words: It is our choices that show what we truly are. Harrys choice is symbolically shown by him rejecting the House of Slytherin. CRC chooses the right Path by chasing away a black raven which is trying to take some bread CRC is giving to a white dove. I presume I dont have to explain what white and black and the dove symbolize. What do the Houses of Hogwarts and the Paths to the Castle of CRC symbolize? Basically people going the Path of Liberation can be divided into four main categories; those going: 1. the esoteric path 2. the path of evolution 3. the path of magic 4. the astral path. The AW says of the first Path: The first one is short but dangerous, for it is full of many high rocks which you will barely be able to pass. The group going this esoteric path is symbolized in HP by the House of Slytherin and in the AW by the path of the kings and emperors. This group consists of people who are endowed with tremendous inner qualities. They have great personal charisma and when were near them we can almost feel their power radiating from them. This is a fairly small group of very exceptional people who show great leadership qualities and have an extraordinary number of gifts and talents. When they are called by the Original Spirit to return as the prodigal son to the Fathers House they react by going the path using their talents and spiritual faculties. They want to take the Kingdom of Heaven by storm. Lucius Malfoy is a wonderful example of such people. He knows everyone whos anyone, is very rich and is gifted in magic. By extension we see Draco following in his footsteps. In the Bible the story of the rich young man can give us a beautiful clue. Matthew chapter 19 verses 16-24 tells us the story of a young man who came to Jesus asking how he could go the Path of Liberation. The young man had obeyed all the commandments but when Jesus told him he also had to sell all he had, he turned away sadly, for he had great possessions. Many people interpret this to mean that people who have a lot of money have trouble earning eternal life, but in my theory the Bible is more subtle than that. In the universal symbology wealth means personal inner wealth, as described above. As I said, these people can go the Path of Liberation, symbolized by the number 13; in HP by 9 and 3 quarters (3 quarters of 13). However unless they realize that they have to surrender their gifts to their Inner God, to their inner Harry Potter, they will have as much trouble going the Path as a camel does going through the eye of a needle. Many of them choose instead to go the Path of Occultism where they end up serving the nuclear force of the fallen world, Lucifer, called Voldemort in HP. They become death eaters. In the AW many of these kings and emperors fail on the Path of Liberation. They are tested by a set of scales on which are placed seven golden weights. The virtues of most of the kings and emperors are not heavy enough to outbalance the weights and so they are sent away from the castle, but a few do withstand all the weights and so are allowed to stay for the Alchemical Wedding. It is very exciting to see that CRC, because of the extremely great weight of his virtues, is given the choice of setting one person free who would otherwise have had to be sent away. He chooses an emperor who has passed all but the seventh weight. I wonder with bated breath whether Harry will also be able to redeem one Slytherin when he, Harry, is liberated. Will it be Draco? I want to emphasize that the Slytherins are not inherently evil; its just that the Path of Liberation requires the giving up of all earned talents and gifts. These are no use in the Universe of Love, which is the Home of the Original Spirit. And thats very difficult for any one. All God wants is a pure heart. This is why Harry is so successful. When Slytherins are faced with this choice they generally choose to keep their spiritual wealth and follow Lucifer. That is a foolish choice because anyone who purifies his heart (Lily) and thirsts for liberation (the stag) receives the inheritance that God pours so abundantly into the lap of those who choose Him. This is why Harry inherits a vault full of gold. The second path, the one of evolution, symbolizes the great mass of people who are called to go the Path but are followers rather than leaders. They of course are the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws. The AW says of this path: The second one is longer, because it takes you on circuitous roads, although it will not lead you astray. It is a smooth and easy road if only, with the help of the compass, you let yourself be led astray neither to the left nor to the right. These people are us, the ordinary plodders, neither greatly gifted nor stupid, not standing out from the masses. We may very well be loving people, showing great devotion, great intelligence; we may be very learned, but when it comes to going the Path of Liberation we show passive docility. With respect to the Path we do not show enough self-activity and therefore our road is long and winding. We may be hard working Hufflepuffs or learned Ravenclaws, but we just dont have Harrys initiative and courage to make decisions that look as if they could be detrimental to our own interests. The fourth path is not discussed in the AW or in HP. This is the Path of those who have passed through the veil referred to in OOP. That leaves the third group: Gryffindor. The AW says of the path gone by this group: The third is the truly royal road. This is why JK Rowling always mentions Harry, Ron and Hermione in that order; she never deviates from it. HRH is His Royal Highness a reference to the Royal Path. This is the Path of Harry, son of the Potter, the Path of Liberating Magic. The 7 books of HP show in great details how the candidate for liberation systematically frees himself from all fetters to the three-dimensional universe of fallen humanity, and I have described these in my previous posts. Harry is the prototype of the Son of the Most High who is asleep in each of us. What is required of us to return to the Original Spirit is not personal ambition even in the spiritual sense: Slytherin, nor learning and cleverness: Ravenclaw, nor toil: Hufflepuff, but courage to choose what is right over what is easy, loyalty to the Spirit (Dumbledore), and Love of God and our fellow humans: Gryffindor. Hans in Holland ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 11 15:01:42 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:01:42 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > Instead, she seems to be > labouring for heavy meaning and drama, and she's just not good > enough to pull it off. OotP reminds me of the progress of many good > sitcoms, like "MASH", which start off very funny, then somewhere > along the line decide that making people laugh is a bit beneath > them, and it's time to start dealing with *serious* issues, and > improving people with moral lectures. Rowling hasn't started > moralizing yet, but she does seem to have cast off her former role > as entertainer in favour of something more exalted. I very much > fear that she is going to try something that she is not fitted for - > a lofty tale of sacrifice and redemption. ] Hmmmm that may be it. It may be that I didn't come to like HP because Harry would be the saviour of the Wizarding World but just because I love Molly's uber momness and Arthur's wonderfully steadfast obsession with his unimportant job. I love Ron Weasley's sweet blend of absolute arrogance and selfconsciousness. I even liked Hermione's consistent belief that she could do anything. Even take every class Hogwarts had to offer. And they LET HER! It may be that what I love about the series isn't what the series will end up being about. We can I guess see that in the desire to see Charlie and Bill again and in the large fan emphasis on Ginny's crush. And really it isn't just the uber fans. Afterall shipping has been a major theme in every interview I've seen. I can't imagine people on the edge of their seats asking that for the Narnia series or Lemony Snicket's SUE. I couldn't care less is Violet gets a boyfriend. I think that it shows where the strengths of the HP series is. In personal relationship of friends and family rather than the tumultous battle between good and evil. I frankly am more interested in Harry's battle with Snape than his destiny with Voldemort. It is possible that JKR will end up not writing to her strengths. I feel the moralizing in HP already. He's filled with love? What is that? Is it like Dollman from The Tick - "I'm filled with tinier men!" Is he going to unleash this love on Voldemort through kisses? Is Harry filled with candied harts? I'm just not feeling it to my bones. There's no form. Though I liked the moral attitude thus far - it has been very simple almost prosaic. Moral uprightness about Harry. everyone complained he was too much of a boy scout. I like boy scout ethics and really that ideal produces a pleasant young man who will grow to be a pleasant adult, growing pains aside I don't think Harry was really tortured. Eberhard was right - he's snotty rather than dark. Parly that is why I found it so punishing for 766 pages. That is really unnecessary to get snottiness across and just darn painful to read. The HP ethic was like the beaver oath. I promise to do my best and help my family and friends. Good, simple, honourable, widely applicable and sunny. But hardly the stuff of a battle with the devil and redmption through God's messanger. Good books don't have to have deep meanings but I do agree Rowling is heading in that. And I challange anyone to discount the obvious plotting of a Christ theme.... So is deeper themes a good or a bad thing in this series? Golly From galadriel1 at mail.charter.net Mon Aug 11 15:59:05 2003 From: galadriel1 at mail.charter.net (abhamghp) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:59:05 -0000 Subject: houses/ snape's worst memory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76591 Forgive me if this has already been discussed; I try to stay up with postings, but sometimes it's hard. Anyway,the further I get into the series, I become more and more intrigued about Lily and James and occurrences before Harry was even around. I'm listening to the cassette version of OotP, (the first time around, I read the book) and am noticing some subtleties and some items to think about. One of those continues to be what houses MMWP and Lily were in when they were in school. I'm almost convinced that the foursome were all in Slytherin, with Snape, and were all five in the same year. My reasons are: there seems to be a parallel drawn with MMWP and Snape and the five boys in Harry's dorm. Dean and SEamus are quite chummy, and obviously, Harry and Ron are. This leaves Neville the odd man out, at least in the first four books. MMWP were all friends, Snape being the odd one out. Also, Sirius' lineage lends to him being in Slytherin. Wormtail, while maybe not incredibly cunning, has the tendency to save his own hide, a Slytherin attribute mentioned by Phineus Nigellus to Harry. James, although he probably matured past his wretched behavior in his fifth year, is an arrogant somebody (almost reminds me of Draco). The only one I can't really place in Slytherin definitely is Lupin. Anyway, that's my theory and my reasons behind it. I know that Harry says Ron reminds him of another Gryffindor Quidditch Player, but could Harry just be assuming that James was in Gryffindor? THe sorting hat considered putting Harry in Slytherin. Could that be because he possesses many of his father's characteristics? What do you think? Thanks, abhamghp From pentzouli at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 15:41:13 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 15:41:13 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: <55BC386F.51F32B2D.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76593 > Okay, I'm officially going to accept that Lupin *may* have had something to do with Sirius' death. :) But I need some more convincing. Who wants to analyze DD's and Lupin's behaviors both before and after the death? JKR usually presents us with a number of clues. Other than the surprise and the jet of light from nowhere, what do we have to work with? > > Brief Chronicles me, holly: I think you have some good points regarding the fact that JKR does not literally prepare us for what is coming. For all I can say, she had all the people fooled with her convincing style, that Snape and not Quirrel was the villain in PS/SS. I have some second thoughts, though, because it is really hard for me to be convinced that anyone, even Dumbledore, would sacrifice someone's life, even for the greater good, especially if they trully belong to the good side. For me, the biggest difference between the Order and the Death Eaters is the value they give to human or any kind of life. The Death Eaters find it extremely easy to kill, whereas the Order's members show great respect for the life and the rights of others. For example,surely if Sirius thought that Kreacher could very much help the situation simply by not interfering, he would try to find a way to restrain him in places where outside contacts would be impossible for him to have. Instead, we see Kreacher walking freely around the house, many times eavesdropping and leaving a sensation that he is a dangerous creature to be around hearing things. Another example is Dumbledore's own discussion with LV, where he says that there are far more worse things than death. Still, he does not harm Bellatrix, he does not even try to kill anyone LV. Not because he can't or because he is really the evil one, but because IMHO he does not think he has a right to decide who lives and who dies. Lupin, on the other hand, has shown his good side early enough, in PoA. He does not harm Pettigrew, he is not evil to do something like that. If there is a suggestion here that Sirius really wanted to harm Peter, well, he had all the rights of the world to feel like that, after 12 years of injustice. The point is that one way or another, he did not. If he really meant to do it, not all the people of the world would be able to stop him. To me, it seems that he really wanted to see justice being served, and not revenge. Even if we take a look at the Aurors, they are not said to have killed anyone, even if they were fighting against evil Death Eaters. They just put everyone to prison. No one but the impostor Moody in GoF exercises the Uforgivable Curses. I think that if there had been the real Mad Eye Moody in the classroom, he would never have exercised the Cruciatus Curse, not even on spiders. Because to be on the good side means that you can't use the Unforgivable Curses, you have to be really eager to harm someone. The good ones only try to defend themselves against evil. That is why the school subject is called "Defence against the dark arts". It is all about defence, not offence. All this, of course, bearing in mind that none of the people in the Order are willingly evil, even if they can be subject to Imperius Curses (which is my humble opinion as well). cheers holly_phoenix_11 From pentzouli at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 16:41:10 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:41:10 -0000 Subject: All in favor if the really good guys, raise your hands! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76594 Hello, grownups! Recently I decided to post this first thread, as I have been lurking for quite some days now, silent and really interested in reading your very thought-provoking threads and posts. The reason behind this desire is simple : I believe that none of the members of the Order can willingly harm each other. Some posts and thoughts here have been really intriguing for me, expecially those that express a very rational and detailed fear that JKR could do the really unexpected and show the evil side of a very trustworthy character, like DD for example. If you bear with me for a while, I will try to show you why I do not believe this to be coming to life. Taking in consideration many great story tellers of our age (and of ages before us) and having read lots of "children's literature" (oh, how I hate this labelling!), I dare say that I can't believe JKR would play with our minds so much as to finally materialise our worst fears, in other words to uncover a great evil character behind that great father figure of Dumbledore. In my opinion, by doing that, the author would compromise her whole point of writing the books. Some points that have been made clear along the way (for me, at least) are the following : 1) You can be as ordinary as you can get, but you can still be a hero (Harry in the wizarding world is a hero, whereas in Muggle world he is "just Harry"). 2) Evil can sometimes take the most unsuspected form (Quirrel vs Snape, impostor Mad Eye). 3) Choices are far more important than inclination ( Gryffindor is the choice of Harry, but if the hat was to decide his fate, it would chose Slytherin). 4) Help and love can be found along the way, from people you never expected (Sirius). 5) One does not have to be your biological father in order to love you and guide you the best way they can think of (Dumbledore), whereas your biological relatives can make your life hell (Dursleys). 6) Compassion and love are essential in the battles with our own demons as well as in our battles with external evil (Harry feels awfully bad about himself and lonely almost every time he behaves badly to his friends, but in addition all the people he has shown love or compassion have been kind to him along the way, like Dobby and Neville). 7) Being a teenager means being in doubt, but most of the fears we have as teenagers turn out to be bogus (that I say from my own experience...). But most important of all, these books have shown me that when you keep faith to some things, like true friendship, you never lose. This can apply to Harry, but it can surely apply to other characters as well. Yes, Peter betrayed Harry's parents, but from my pont of view, it wasn't true affection he had for Sirius ot James, it was awe (until he met another wizard who really made him gasp in awe, I might say...) and envy. He was faithful to them simply because they put up with him, not because he loved them. Sirius, Lupin and James are another story. It is like the trio that is depicted between HRH. Real friendship. That is something that remains always true and cherrished. It cannot be altered by years, by circumstances or by even by fate. It may change forms, but it still remains strong and true. The same is with Dumbledore. He has true affection for Harry. It may blurr his judgement a bit, but his intentions can never be evil. Why? Because he can be strong in his goodness, he doesn't need the Dark Arts or the fear of the others to feel strong. He is strong in his kindness, in his love for all beings. He does not discriminate between races (he could trust Hagrid with his life) and he always tries to win his battles by reason and not by force. He has a profound faith in the goodness of people, and he always tries to summon this goodness from the bottom of their hearts, if he can (for example, he has faith in Snape to teach Harry occlumency, and even if the latter fails him ,he doesn't seem to be angry or something. He understands). I, for one, cannot believe that all this can change in the course of the books. Maybe with the twitches in the eyes and the frailty in the voices, JKR just tries to remind us that nobody is perfect, many good people can be the subject of evil powers (I cannot imagine a smarter way than the Cruciatus Curse to make impecable characters do evil things) and even the most solid personas can make mistakes. But that is the end of it, they are just mistakes that make the path more difficult and twisted. In the end, I do not think that these books need any more villains than they already have. The evil ones are right before our eyes, more dangerous than ever, it does not serve a purpose for the writer to make us witnesses of an evil so profoundly hidden, that we can close the books and not have any shred of hope that something in this world or in other worlds is worth it. Thank you for your patience, feel free to comment or raise the hands in favour af all the good guys! cheers holly_phoenix_11 From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 19:52:00 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:52:00 -0000 Subject: Who were Lily's Hogwarts friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76595 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I'm throwing around ideas I've had in my head for a while about Lily > Evans' friends. > > We know, or hope at least, that Lily's story, whatever that may be, > is coming in books 6 and 7. And as we've found out a lot of > information about James through his friends and enemies what about > Lily's? > I have wondered the same thing myself. At the end of SS/PS, Hagrid gives Harry a photo album containing pictures of Harry's parents, which he obtained by writing all of James' and Lily's school friends. Obviously, he could not have gotten any pictures from Sirius or Pettigrew at the time, leaving only Lupin as the only named friend of Lily and James who could have sent pictures. And it doesn't seem his nature to be an avid photographer, so I have also wondered who else they were friends with. Mhershey From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 20:01:34 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:01:34 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldron, real location? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76596 Severus "from evil" Snape asked: > I know this is strange, but has anyone who is a resident of London, > gone looking for the physical address of the Leaky Cauldron? Using > any information JKR used in the book? Check out the HPfGU files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Graphics/Geographic% 20Locations/%20Locating%20the%20Leaky%20Cauldron/ ~Phyllis From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 20:16:17 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:16:17 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldren, real location? In-Reply-To: <002d01c3603c$6fb457a0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > > From: severusbook4 > > > I know this is strange, but has anyone who is a resident of London, > gone looking for the physical address of the Leaky Cauldren? Using > any information JKR used in the book.<> > > ------------- > Dawn: > The descriptions are probably too vague, so unless there is some evidence in an interview or the like, all I could see was that it is not too far from a Tube station, but not that close, on a reasonably large street comprising of a wide variety shops and facilities. Considering that the shops that flank it could well change use as well (as in JKR could have been describing her memory of a place, which has since changed). That description could fit dozens of places, although I should think it would have to be one of the smaller stations, as one of the ones with lots of platforms, miles of corridors or more impressive ticket halls would probably have been remembered by Harry as it was the first time he'd been on the Tube. I mean, we don't even know which side of the river it is on, let alone the borough. Re the comment made by someone about Charing Cross Road, it is not exactly a short road. It makes an end-on connection with St.Martin's Lane just north of the National Gallery and ends at St.Giles Circus, the meeting point with Tottenham Court Road and New Oxford Street. I am prepared to hazard that it is meant to be on the north side. Most of the big shopping streets are on that side of the Thames - Oxford Street, Regent Street, Bond Street for example. If you go south of the river, you're tending to get into the administrative district - Whitehall, Parliament Square etc. The major shopping street here is Victoria Street. I seem to recall that in the film, the shooting location was Borough Market, further to the east. Geoff From ajlboston at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 20:18:54 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:18:54 -0000 Subject: Is Ron a Seer? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76598 Hi, I can't find the thread that was here a while back (tried a search) but felt upon the latest rereading of OOP and GOF, it's too weirdly coincidental. I dunno if he's a 7th son of a 7th son or not, but when Ron actually remembers his dreams, or comes up with fake predictions for homework, or even saw himself in Erised., it's eerie how accurate they are. Nobody notices yet, especially Ron. I'd want to pay attention to anything that comes up in the future, even if he thinks Divination is rubbish. Has this thread died out? I wonder who else among purebloods he is related to-- Cassandra or anyone? Thinking, A.J. From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 11 20:25:14 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:25:14 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76599 Holly says: > Even if we take a look at the Aurors, they are not said to have > killed anyone, even if they were fighting against evil Death > They just put everyone to prison. No one but the impostor Moody in > GoF exercises the Uforgivable Curses. I think that if there had been the real Mad Eye Moody in the classroom, he would never have > exercised the Cruciatus Curse, not even on spiders. Because to be on the good side means that you can't use the Unforgivable Curses, you have to be really eager to harm someone. The good ones only try to defend themselves against evil. That is why the school subject is > called "Defence against the dark arts". It is all about defence, not offence. Me: I agree with a lot of the points you raise and love your faith in the goodness of the good in the story. I'm intrigued to hear about what you think of Harry using the Cruciatus Curse at the end of OotP. I was stunned and saddened when I read Harry shout "Crucio" at Bellatrix in the Ministry. There has to be some huge consequences for him using it. I don't mean he's off of Azkaban of anything but surly using that Curse it the first dangerous step in the wrong direction. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 11 20:45:58 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:45:58 -0000 Subject: houses/ snape's worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abhamghp" wrote: > Forgive me if this has already been discussed; I try to stay up with > postings, but sometimes it's hard. Anyway,the further I get into > the series, I become more and more intrigued about Lily and James > and occurrences before Harry was even around. I'm listening to the > cassette version of OotP, (the first time around, I read the book) > and am noticing some subtleties and some items to think about. One > of those continues to be what houses MMWP and Lily were in when they > were in school. I'm almost convinced that the foursome were all in > Slytherin, with Snape, and were all five in the same year. My > reasons are: there seems to be a parallel drawn with MMWP and Snape > and the five boys in Harry's dorm. Dean and SEamus are quite > chummy, and obviously, Harry and Ron are. This leaves Neville the > odd man out, at least in the first four books. MMWP were all > friends, Snape being the odd one out. Also, Sirius' lineage lends > to him being in Slytherin. Wormtail, while maybe not incredibly > cunning, has the tendency to save his own hide, a Slytherin > attribute mentioned by Phineus Nigellus to Harry. James, although > he probably matured past his wretched behavior in his fifth year, is > an arrogant somebody (almost reminds me of Draco). The only one I > can't really place in Slytherin definitely is Lupin. > > Anyway, that's my theory and my reasons behind it. I know that > Harry says Ron reminds him of another Gryffindor Quidditch Player, > but could Harry just be assuming that James was in Gryffindor? THe > sorting hat considered putting Harry in Slytherin. Could that be > because he possesses many of his father's characteristics? > > What do you think? > > Thanks, > abhamghp Me: I have often thought the same thing. Sirius and James seem like Slytherins to me but the Lexicon states that James was in Gryfindor. They state that the information came from Rowling herself in an interview with Scholastic October 16th 2002. Rowling was asked: What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was he seeker like Harry, or something different? Her answer: James was Chaser. Now call me a skeptic, but she doesn't actually say he was in Gryfindor, just that he was a Chaser. But logically one would deduce from her answer that she agreed with the first part and corrected the interviewer on the second part. So I reluctantly concede that James was in Gryiffindor along with Lupin. Mandy From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 21:06:06 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:06:06 -0000 Subject: Lucius and Snape (was Secret Agent Snape in OotP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76601 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Ariadne says: > > So, I'm back to Ex-DE! Lucius. Any supporters out there?!? Not since > the beginning of course the diary in COS doesn't support it), just > since GOF and the return of Voldemort. > > Me: If not a DE where do you think Lucius stands? I don't agree with the ex-DE Lucius but I do believe Lucius switches sides and supports > whomever is on top and therefore can advance himself, his son and > family name for future generations. (He did warned Draco, in one of > the books I can't remeber which, PS I think, about the danger of > alienating Harry as Harry is considered the 'saviour' of the WW.) > Lucius was definatly a DE during the first war, weasled out of any > responsiblity after LV defeat by baby Harry, and now I think he is > back where he really belongs, with Voldemort. > > But I'm very interested in hearing your thought on Ex-DE Lucius. Or > just point me in the direction of your other posts if I have missed > them. > Mandy. Ah, well, it's just a hunch really and here's why: 1)What's in it for a man like Lucius, to take up as a DE again when Voldemort isn't as powerful as before, doesn't have the same followers (and the followers he has are aging, recently released from prison, etc.), and esp. Voldemort has to contend with Harry Potter and OOTP at every turn? As you said, Lucius is in it for himself. 2) Lucius would be the type to wait and see how the tide will turn. Since GOF, he's seen Voldemort's plans fail twice --Lucius could be keeping both doors open, one to the DE's and one to Snape and, indirectly, Dumbledore. 3)I DO believe he is into the pureblood mania, and perhaps the diary in COS was an attempt to bring Tom Riddle back, or perhaps really, he just underestimated the power of the diary and only meant to scare people. I don't believe he truly wanted to see Voldemort return and potentially ruin the "good life" he's made for himself and family. 4) Fear is a great motivator, but if fear is the only force pushing Lucius to join the DE's again, it will only motivate as long as it's more powerful than the alternative. Right now, with the MOM affirming Voldy's return, and with Lucius's connctions to Fudge, he may feel the power is shifting. 5) Lucius directing the prophecy retrieval and his insistence on not hurting Harry. Yes, he said it was to protect the prophecy. Could there be alternative reasons? Just some ideas. I'm not convinced, but I'm wondering if there are other sides to Lucius, just as we've been pondering Lupin and Dumbledore's allegiance to the Order. Ariadne From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 21:14:30 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:14:30 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76602 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > I think we are reading too much into all this - let's face it it > would have totally destroyed his image if he'd had "a dazzling white > freshly laundered and starched nightshirt" or "silk pyjamas and a > maroon silk dressing gown" or "bikini scanties". He may crave good > nightwear and underwear the way I crave good red wine of a night, > but he's is just not going to cut it as the resident spooky guy if > he dresses up better. My own advice to him would be that black > undies and nightwear would improve his image a helluva lot - and > would go with all his other black stuff. > > Just a thought. > > June > Laura: Oh my. The image of Snape in binikis does not bear thinking about. Well, maybe if you're a Snape fan. But still...where do wizards get their lingerie anyhow? *blushes and grins* From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 21:34:44 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:34:44 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: >...I think Petunia is a few years older than Lily (though I have no proof). > > bibphile I can't remember anything in canon that suggests which sister is older. This one seems a total blank. Hints, anyone? From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 21:50:20 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:50:20 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldron, real location? I Know! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76604 I remember, even though cannot say exactly which page, in PS/SS that Hagrid and Harry get the train to LONDON BRIDGE, which is south of the river, full of little scruffy non-descriptive shops, back alleys hidden to public view, and with a pub near it on a main road with loads of passing-by-fast-but-not-stopping-here trafic. I have seen the place before I read the books, and associated straight away with Diagon Alley and The Leaky Cauldron. In fact, the pub I am talking about is very thin, and has a hidden alley on the back with loads of warehouse suppliers that you can only get to if you know they are there, thruw a small hidden passage in a back road. You can hear the buzz from the wharehouses from the pub, but from the main road you can`t. Also from the warehouses you can only see the brick wall of the pub and other buildings, that form a high wall in the shape of a half moon, where you do`t hear the main road either. The locals at the pub look "suspicious" or like hags. And the warehouses are suppliers of imported goods, such as exotic spices, oils, and some strange things in glass jars. I have been meaning to go back there, but never really had the time. London Bridge is a most weird place, and it fits in with JKR's description. Nineve. From sydpad at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 21:53:19 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:53:19 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldren, real location? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76605 > > I seem to recall that in the film, the shooting location was Borough > Market, further to the east. > > Geoff That was actually Leadenhall Market, if you're thinking of the pretty frilly structure Harry and Hagrid walk through just before going into the Leaky Cauldron in the first movie (I can't remember what the exterior was in CoS though). It's right in the heart of the City, about two minutes from Bank. A much more promising location than Charing Cross, there isn't a really nice pub anywhere near there. I assumed Rowling put the entrance to the magical world there, symbolically speaking, because of all the bookshops. Charing Cross is such a loud, modern street, but you can step into one of the second-hand shops and be transported away by an old book! I did read somewhere that PoA was shooting the Leaky Cauldron scenes around the Borough Market, which is quite a gritty location (the fabulous gourmet food market aside) with a lot of grim brick railway bridges crisscrossing it. Sydney From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Mon Aug 11 21:55:26 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:55:26 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76606 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > wrote: > > I think we are reading too much into all this - let's face it it > > would have totally destroyed his image if he'd had "a dazzling > white > > freshly laundered and starched nightshirt" or "silk pyjamas and a > > maroon silk dressing gown" or "bikini scanties". He may crave good > > nightwear and underwear the way I crave good red wine of a night, > > but he's is just not going to cut it as the resident spooky guy if > > he dresses up better. My own advice to him would be that black > > undies and nightwear would improve his image a helluva lot - and > > would go with all his other black stuff. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > June > > > Laura: > > Oh my. The image of Snape in binikis does not bear thinking about. > Well, maybe if you're a Snape fan. But still...where do wizards get > their lingerie anyhow? *blushes and grins* I am a Snape fan, but I feel overlong contemplation of some of the above thoughts requires an exceptionally diseased imagination. Damn, my exceptionally good visuals are working way way too well tonight. June (Mops brow, contemplates cold shower, followed by long lie down in very darkened room counting imaginary hedgehogs to ward off unwelcome imagery) "It is a comfort in wretchedness to have companions in woe" Christopher Marlowe, Dr Faustus From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 22:00:45 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:00:45 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76607 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" > wrote: ...I think Petunia is a few years older than Lily (though I have no proof). bibphile > I can't remember anything in canon that suggests which sister is > older. This one seems a total blank. Hints, anyone? ************* I think Petunia is older, because if she was younger she would be amazed with the novelty, and grown used to the idea of having a witch for a sister. But being older, more set on her own ways, envious of the little sister's attention and already in school, so she would know she wasn't going to Hogwarts. There is no proof, of course, that is only my oppinion, my I think it makes sense. Nineve. From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 14:01:30 2003 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:01:30 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76608 > > evangelina839 at y... writes: > > > as I was saying, near as I can tell Tolkien's works are WORLD > driven. The > > characters are props. Look for descriptions of people in the > books. The main > > characters. Legolas gets Blond, and bright-eyed and that's pretty > much it. > > Oh, and he has a nice voice, and he talks to trees so much he > sounds mildly > > scitzo. > > > > Did I mention that Almost ALL (namely the ones he actually > mentions) elves > > are described as having a nice voice and being bright-eyed? > > > "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > That is patronising to the elves. Legolas is a lot more than that. > All the peoples of LOTR are fleshed out with their own > characteristics, specch patterns, idiocyncracies etc. > Me: I really don't want to debate JRRT with JKR because all to often I am defending Harry on my Tolkien site and Fantasy lit in general to my all to snobby friends (of course, I did hang around with them through college and grad school so debating is a little fun ;) ) Anyway I wanted to make the quick point that if you would have read the discription of Legolas a little closer you would have noticed that he does not even have blonde hair...it was changed for the movie a la Dursley...so if you are going to make a point regarding a book using one example, the example better be founded. Imagine the posts among Tolkien geeks when the movie came out! You think this board nitpicks! ha! Anyway, I agree with Geoff. The characters in LTR and beyond (Tolkien's world streches to more than three/four books) are so developed they have there own bloodlines/ histories /backgrounds /not read about in any book etc. In fact, most Tolkien fans believe that JKR got her idea of writing down all of the Characters histories first FROM Tolkien who was a master at this. (How many people know that Galadriel is Arwen's Grandmother?) The guy wrote languages for gosh sakes! Also, Frodo as a character has an inner battle unlike I have seen yet in HP. I am *hoping* to see it mind you, at this point in my life I apreciate JKR more than Tolkien because of the humor and lightheartedness along with the depth. *That* Tolkien has very little of! Trish. From annee19 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 14:46:02 2003 From: annee19 at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:46:02 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76609 Greetings! I'm coming out of lurk mode to make just one little contribution to this conversation. Wiley said: "I have to side with the people who feel criticizing the series is a bit pretentious. For cripe's sake, people...this is young adult literature, not Joyce or Tolkein or Hemmingway. I don't ever expect Rowling to be brought up in a university literature course." My reply: Actually, I know of at least one university English course already that is specifically devoted to Harry Potter. Dr. Philip Nel, author of "J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter Novels: A Reader's Guide," teaches a course called "Harry Potter's Library" at Kansas State University. In addition to all the Harry texts, they also read works by Philip Pullman, E. Nesbit, Roald Dahl, and C.S. Lewis, among others. Oh, how I would love to take that course! :) --Anne From fuguewriter at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 18:48:34 2003 From: fuguewriter at yahoo.com (fuguewriter) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:48:34 -0000 Subject: Evanesco In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76610 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: : > I just recently looked it up upon getting the new "Evanescence" cd. > > go check these out . . . > > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=evanesce > > http://evanescence.com > > > I hope these links work. > > Dan: > Yes, they did! Thank you! According to dictionary.com, evanesce is, "to vanish away; to become dissipated and disappear, like vapor." Sounds pretty accurate. The things that evanesco is cast upon "vanish way" and "disappear like vapor." > -Dan, who still thinks that stuff is sent somewhere. > Maybe the thing that is vanishing turns into gases like oxygen, hydrogen, etc. That way they would just turn into thin air. I don't know that much about chemistry, but I do know that there are processes that will reduce carbon-based things into water, gas, and some solids. Since water is 2 parts hydrogen, one part oxygen, maybe evanesco reduces things down so far that they are just thin air -- with maybe just a sprinkling of inert solids on the floor to be swept up by the house elves. From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 22:33:52 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:33:52 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76611 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" > > wrote: > ...I think Petunia is a few years older than Lily (though I have no > proof). > bibphile This isn't conclusive, but we know that Lily Potter was quite young when she had Harry--about nineteen. This is fairly young, but not psychotically so, to be married and have a child. If Petunia is younger than Lily and has a child slightly older than Lily's, then Petunia got married *really* early. So unless Petunia and Vernon had to get hitched in a hurry at seventeen years old, we can assume that Petunia is older or the same age. -kg From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Mon Aug 11 22:35:53 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:35:53 -0000 Subject: "We Didn't Start the Story" FILK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76614 I've been reading (and greatly enjoying) the HP filks here for quite some time. I finally worked up the nerve to create and post one of my own. I humbly dedicate this to all of the wonderful HP filk-sters - I had NO IDEA how *bleeping* tough it was (until now). to the tune of "We Didn't Start the Fire" by Billy Joel (It covers PS/SS chapter by chapter) Vernon Dursley, fateful day, owls flying, baby stays Albus sighs, Hagrid cries, Harry is so young. Dudley's birthday, at the zoo, I think Arabella knew, Harry went, Piers too, we meet a Parsletongue. "Harry Hunting", Dudley's mates, post's in, Vernon waits see's what's come, goes berserk, the Dursley's run away. Harry's birthday, on the rock, Hagrid arrives, Vernon's shocked pink umbrella, Dudley's tail, Harry's on his way. Chorus: We didn't start the story It was always Rowling Since the train's been going We didn't start the story No we didn't write it But we love to read it Leaky Cauldr'n, Barkeep Tom, Quirrill and his tur-ban Ollivander's, Eeylops, Flourish & Blotts Plat-form hid-den, Molly Weasley helps him off to school, we meet Ron, skinny but eats lots Great Hall, Hat sings, and then sorting begins Gryffindor, and the rest, I hope there won't be a test! Flitwick, McGongall, Peeves, Filch, I hope that's all Professor Snape, mouth agape, trouble in the dark hall Chorus Midnight Duel, trophy room, almost caught, sudden doom "Alohomora!", run fast, Fluffy growls, haul ass! Learning Quidditch, racing broom, Hermy's in the bathroom. Troll got loose inside, I can't believe it --Hermy lied! Gryffindor 'gainst Slytherin, wonder who's gonna win Harry's broom under spell, caught the snitch as he fell! Holidays at the school, Harry' gifts are really cool! With the cloak, he found, Mirror shows family 'round Chorus Finding Flamel's proven hard, here he is on the card! Quidditch, match again, victory, too! Secret birth of Ridgeback, Malfoy sees the egg crack, Charlie to the rescue. But Draco told - I knew! Detentions, Centuars, silver blood, seeing stars. 50 points, taken anyway, what else do I have to say! Chorus Final exams, they're done, but where'd that egg come from? Cloaked man, in the bar, hood up, painful scar! Trapdoor, Devil's Snare, Wizard's Chess played with flair! Harry's off on his own, just got to save the Stone! Erised here once more, Quirrell's turban's on the floor Voldy's head, eyes of red, awoke in hospital bed. Heard the news from Dumbledore, sadly, Quirrell is no more. Finally Gryffs win the cup! Can't wait 'til book 2 comes up! Chorus From cherishedvette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 20:37:06 2003 From: cherishedvette at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:37:06 -0000 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76615 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" > wrote: > > Emily Rose wrote: > > It's clear that simple physical processes (e.g. burning at the > stake) > > are perfectly effective against wizards. Why shouldn't any sort of > > bomb work at Hogwarts? > > > > - Caipora > > We are never told if witches and wizards are burned at the stake, > are we? Well, if muggles tried to capture a wizard or witch, do you > think the witch or wizard would allow it? Isn't a witch or wizard > easily able to over power a muggle? The ones burned at the stake > during the witch trials were only accused of witchcraft or wizardry, > not neccessarily real witches or wizards, probably just muggles in > the wrong place at the wrong time. A WW witch or wizard would > probably just disapparate or work a memory charm on the offending > muggles (or any other type of spell)to effect their escape. What I > am saying is, if the bomb was wizard in nature then yes, if it was > muggle in nature then no. Muggle technologies seem to malfunction > in the WW. Even the criminals of the WW are impossible for the > muggles to catch, hence the need for aurors. Laws of physics need > not apply, seems most of the items in the WW are "physically > impossible" anyways. > > Severus Snape Just wanted to point out that in POA it says that " The witch or wizard would perform a basic Flame Freezing Charm and then pretend to shriek with pain while enjoying a gentle, tickling sensation." Karen From nansense at cts.com Mon Aug 11 20:53:47 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:53:47 -0000 Subject: Pride and Prejudice (it's OT, honest!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76616 Anita Hillin wrote: > > I began to compare the James/Lily interaction with the proposal > scene between Elizabeth and Darcy in P & P, and I was struck with > the similarities. James/Darcy is an arrogant, overconfident (not > without reason) young man who is smitten with Lily/Elizabeth, and > he is rebuffed in no uncertain terms, to the point of saying "You > are the last man I'd ever be interested in dating/marrying." Madeyemood (me, that is): Interesting you should bring this up since Rowling has described herself as= a major Austen fan. For me, Sirius possesses more of a quality of Darcyness than bonnie James. = * from an aristocratic background (where James seems middle or upper middle) * disdainfully places himself away from the company of most (James seems more extroverted, Sirius, more intro-) * has a close relative (mom) who resembles Darcy's aunt (Lady Catherine) in= her crazy, loudmouthed snobbery and rather extreme opinions about which marriages do justice to the family bloodline * possesses aloof self-assurance married to a certain heaviness of purpose = (although he seems to only have eyes for James.) contextual differences that spring to mind between characters of the two books: * difference in the ages of the characters * distinct absence of a sister so that both of the guys have a (hetero) lov= e object Pip!Squeak: > But if Snape is an `anti-Wickham' then he will also continue to > change in our perception. Wickham appeared nice, and moral, and hard > done by, but underneath was morally rotten and incapable of remorse. > > Snape appears nasty, and sadistic, and to have deserved every bad > thing he's ever got, but underneath Madeyemood (me, that is): Ms. Squeak, your words got me thinking of a favorite Sondheim song. The following's an excerpt for you viewing pleasure: She was smart, tart, dry as a martini. Ah, but underneath... She was all heart, something by Puccini, Ah, but underneath... In the depths of her interior Were fears she was inferior. And something even eerier. But no one dared to query her superior exterior. Salutations, madeyemood From sarahlizzy at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 21:02:26 2003 From: sarahlizzy at hotmail.com (sarah_haining) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:02:26 -0000 Subject: houses/ snape's worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abhamghp" > wrote: > > Forgive me if this has already been discussed; I try to stay up > with > > postings, but sometimes it's hard. Anyway,the further I get into > > the series, I become more and more intrigued about Lily and James > > and occurrences before Harry was even around. I'm listening to the > > cassette version of OotP, (the first time around, I read the book) > > and am noticing some subtleties and some items to think about. One > > of those continues to be what houses MMWP and Lily were in when > they > > were in school. I'm almost convinced that the foursome were all in > > Slytherin, with Snape, and were all five in the same year.> > Me: > I have often thought the same thing. Sirius and James seem like > Slytherins to me but the Lexicon states that James was in Gryfindor. Just to add, JK has stated that Lily was in Gryffindor, also. >From http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-scholastic-chat.htm "Which house was Lily Potter in, and what is her maiden name? Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally)." >From this, the above quote, Lupin's statement to Harry in POA and Harry's 'assumption' in OOP I am 98% certain all the Marauder's plus Lily were in Gryffindor. Sarah From patnkatng at cox.net Mon Aug 11 21:11:19 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:11:19 -0000 Subject: name of Salazar In-Reply-To: <200308112019.15155.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76618 I'd say the most likely connection is from Antonio Salazar, the former dictator of Portugal. Katrina From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 11 21:26:18 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:26:18 -0000 Subject: Re-reading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > I wonder what kinds of picture of Snape we would have seen if we had > been able to see the memories of James, Sirius and Remus. The text > we have now makes it sound like Snape's worst crime against them was > being nosy, and they retaliated with some serious bullying and > humiliation. But there's always another side to the story. We know > that Snape is heavy into the Dark Arts from the moment he arrives at > Hogwarts. Any theories about what Snape might have done to them? In GoF Sirius actually discusses this. He said that Snape was heavily into the dark arts, was hanging out with a group of Slytherins who all turned out to be Death Eaters (including the Lestranges) and was always trying to find out stuff to get the four friends expelled. In OoP he said that Snape was always trying to curse James. The pensieve incident shows the ugly side of James and Sirius but it should be seen in context, which of course was not provided. That was what Lupin and Sirius were trying (unsuccessfully) to explain to Harry. Salit From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 11 21:42:38 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:42:38 -0000 Subject: Is Ron a Seer? In-Reply-To: <6386597790.20020116202543@mindspring.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76620 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook wrote: > Well, the one that always stands out for me is when in _CoS_ they're > wondering what Tom Riddle got the "Award for Special Services" for, > and Ron says, "Maybe he killed Myrtle, that would have done everyone a > favor." And bingo! -- It turned out Riddle *DID* kill Myrtle (via the > basilisk)!! One of the most interesting themes that we see about that is Ron's view of Snape. Beginning with the first book, Ron has always been suspicious of Snape, in effect viewing him as a double agent. Hermione always defends Snape arguing that he must be good because Dumbledore trusts him. The first such argument started out in SS/PS but there was a lot more said on the subject in OoP. Essentially Ron's opinion was that Snape made it easier for Voldemort to penetrate Harry's mind during occlumency, and that perhaps it was done on purpose. Hermione refuses to admit it and again relies on Dumbledore's trust of Snape. I have a feeling that Ron will end up being right. Snape will eventually turn out to be a double double agent. I think that Dumbledore has Snape pretend to Voldemort (using his skills at occlumency) that he is spying on Dumbledore, when in fact he is spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore. But just like Snape can use occlumency to deceive Voldemort, he can do the same to deceive Dumbledore. Or perhaps he is now in Dumbledore's camp due to personal loyalty to him. But Dumbledore is almost certain to die sometimes in book 6 or 7. Will Snape's loyalty to the OoP (if it is genuine...) survive Dumbledore's death, especially when the person he has to help is Harry whom he hates so much? So I think that Snape at the end will turn to the dark side vindicating Ron's assessment of him... Salit From cubs9911 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 21:54:54 2003 From: cubs9911 at aol.com (cubs99111) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:54:54 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76621 I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about what James and Lily's occupations were. Are we to assume that they were Aurors? I remember vaguely in an interview with J.K. a long time ago, she said that she couldn't say what there occupations were because it would be revealed later on. Now we know that they have thrice defeated He who blah blah blah but does that neccessarily mean that they were Aurors. I also remember in that interview that J.K said that James inherited a lot of money so he didn't have to have a real high paying job. Any thoughts? Joe From madelynx at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 22:34:12 2003 From: madelynx at yahoo.com (Madelyne X) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:34:12 -0000 Subject: Veritaserum question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76622 Canon related question: What are the side effets of Veritaserum? Does anyone recall the specifics mentioned in the books? Thanks, ~M From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 22:52:41 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:52:41 -0000 Subject: Is Ron a Seer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76623 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Dave Hardenbrook > wrote: > > Well, the one that always stands out for me is when in _CoS_ they're > > wondering what Tom Riddle got the "Award for Special Services" for, > > and Ron says, "Maybe he killed Myrtle, that would have done > everyone a > > favor." And bingo! -- It turned out Riddle *DID* kill Myrtle (via > the > > basilisk)!! > > One of the most interesting themes that we see about that > is Ron's view of Snape. Beginning with the first book, Ron > has always been suspicious of Snape, in effect viewing him as > a double agent. Hermione always defends Snape arguing that he > must be good because Dumbledore trusts him. The first such > argument started out in SS/PS but there was a lot more said > on the subject in OoP. Essentially Ron's opinion was that Snape > made it easier for Voldemort to penetrate Harry's mind during > occlumency, and that perhaps it was done on purpose. Hermione > refuses to admit it and again relies on Dumbledore's trust of Snape. > > I have a feeling that Ron will end up being right. Snape will > eventually turn out to be a double double agent. I think that > Dumbledore has Snape pretend to Voldemort (using his skills at > occlumency) that he is spying on Dumbledore, when in fact he > is spying on Voldemort for Dumbledore. But just like Snape can > use occlumency to deceive Voldemort, he can do the same to > deceive Dumbledore. Or perhaps he is now in Dumbledore's camp > due to personal loyalty to him. But Dumbledore is almost certain > to die sometimes in book 6 or 7. Will Snape's loyalty to the > OoP (if it is genuine...) survive Dumbledore's death, especially > when the person he has to help is Harry whom he hates so much? > > So I think that Snape at the end will turn to the dark side > vindicating Ron's assessment of him... > > Salit Another thing thats been talked about that really has no proof is His dad becoming Minister of magic. Ron says " Whats the point? We have about a good a chance of winning the Quiditch Cup as dad has of becoming the Minister of Magic". I for one really like this theroy. Garrett From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 23:06:49 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:06:49 -0000 Subject: Portkeys - Curses foiled again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76624 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > I have a theory in this area of magical travel. Much like Star Trek > > Transporter teleportation, I think, with in reasonable limits, magic > > has a certain safeguard built in that prevent you from materializing > > inside solid objects. > > > > Me (Margaret): This would be a really nice thing to have, but one of > the most vivid images from the Weasley kitchen in GoF (at least for > me) is Mr Weasley explaining what "squelching" is, (apparating poorly > and leaving part of yourself behind: OW!) and talking about the > magical reversal squad having to sort them out "they were stuck you > see, couldn't move either way" and having to perform memory charms on > the muggles who saw the random body bits. But the people in question > were fined for apperating without a license, so maybe once you've > passed the test it becomes second nature to avoid apparating into > solid objects. But Fred and George did have a pretty good idea of > the setup of Ron's bedromm, and could have avoided most of the > furniture. > > ~Margaret *****\(@@)/***** Knowing Fred and George they probably intentionally apparated on top of Ron for the maximum effect! I bet Ron "squelches" when he is learning..... Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 23:08:38 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:08:38 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumenc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: Sue wrote: My own question is - if this guy, Snape is so crash hot in Occlumency, why does he need the Pensieve at all to hide his thoughts from a mere student? Me: >From a teenage point of view, everything is done because of the teen. Maybe Snape didn't use the pensieve to keep Harry from seeing those memories - after all he left the other ones Harry did access directly, where he was a child cowering in the corner. Maybe he removed them to temper his own reaction to Harry. He knew what he was doing was important, and knew he had to keep cool-headed while working with him. Perhaps putting the memory in the pensieve keeps him for remembering just how much he hated James. Of course, when he pulled Harry out, it was no longer a matter of hating Harry for something James did - Harry violated Snapes privacy, and in Snapes eyes is probably becoming more like his father. Melinda From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 23:27:14 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:27:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Veritaserum question References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76626 M: Canon related question: What are the side effets of Veritaserum? Does anyone recall the specifics mentioned in the books? Dan: There are none that I can recall--according to canon, all it does is force the drinker to tell the truth. I'd imagine that there are, though, or that it is extremely expensive/difficult to make. -Dan, who wonders what would have happened if Harry had drunk one of Umbridge's Veritaserum-overloaded drinks [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Cfitz812 at aol.com Mon Aug 11 23:57:48 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:57:48 -0000 Subject: Second guessing JKR In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76627 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I sometimes wonder whether, here on the group, we get a little too > involved in second guessing what Jo Rowling is intending us to read > into her books. This thought came to mind when the writer of a recent > message commented on whether there was any significance that > when "Moody" had been using the Imperius curse in GOF, Hermione was > not in the list of those named. Was there a deep and significant > reason which books 6 & 7 would reveal? On the other hand, did Moody > use all the members of the class? Or did he use Hermione but this > fact wasn't mentioned in the text? > > I have cogitated for some time as to whether JKR spent a great deal > of time putting together the words of the prophecy so that > ambiguities would be perceived by those who like to dissect every > paragraph of the book with a scalpel! By way of example, we have had > deep treatises (and a good deal of fun) in trying to interpret what > was meant by the use of "either" and to whom it referred. I wonder > whether this was the case. Have readers ever written an email or a > letter or said something to find that the reader or hearer has put a > totally different slant on what was meant? Maybe JKR wrote down the > words of the prophecy with her own specific line of thought in mind > without stopping to consider how the readers might choose to see a > different meaning ? or did she consider every word thinking "Aha! > This'll get `em going. He, he". This is perhaps a trap of critical > analysis that we assume that the writer has paralleled our line of > thought and has indeed inserted material which can be analysed in > umpteen ways; or perhaps we are tripping ourselves up in our own > eagerness to "unfog the future". > > I shall await the arrival of books 6 & 7 with increasing impatience > to see how accurate the outcomes of our musings are. One hope is that > it is not a dream in the manner of Dallas or I shall be joining the > lynch party! My only wish would be that HP does not die. He is a > great survivor already; may it remain so. > > Geoff Bannister Me: I do agree. Although I believe half the fun of this group is to read which of the theories turns out to be correct. The fact that we cannot persuade JKR one way or another is irrelevant. I, for one, appreciate the chance to debate, ad nauseum perhaps, the minutiae of HP and where we think JKR is going with a particular thread (much the same way we do in the group). If one is correct, more the better (that fist pump in the air, followed by a shouted "YES!!!") or the converse ("oh no, I never thought THAT would happen"). Claire From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Aug 12 00:00:32 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:00:32 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76628 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > But there were 13 people on the table when Harry first ate with the > OOTP (Harry, Ron, Hermione, Molly, Arthur, Fred, George, Ginny, > Sirius, Lupin,Tonks, Mundungus Fletcher and Bill) and the first to > rise was indeed Sirius. > > Hickengruendler --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > Yes, but the first to die of that group of 13 was Cedric, and he > wasn't the first to rise. Though it is interesting that 13 sat down at table, and one of them did die soon after. > > Wanda Oh, well, there's that. . . and that . . . (Wanda, you have such a nice, gentle way of, shall we say, guiding one in the right direction. . .) (And Hickengruendler, good catch!) Does anyone else sit there and get an attack of the Emily Latellas (spelling not sure about)? Big stroke of what you just know is pure genius. You and you alone have spotted something in the books that certainly answers at least a dozen questions and clears up two dozen more. You rush to share it with the group. And then, well, you know the rest: "Oh. Well then. That's different. Never mind." Big grins and a hearty, thanks guys! :) Bohcoo (or, boo hoo coo) From natmichaels at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 00:01:50 2003 From: natmichaels at hotmail.com (lorien_eve) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:01:50 -0000 Subject: OoP, Neville & Harry and their 'connection' - foreshadowing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76629 It's funny that this thread came up, because I was listening to POA on my way home from work today and I was at chapter 3 "The Knight Bus." When Stan asks Harry his name, Harry tells him his name is Neville Longbottom because that was the first name that came to his mind. I thought it was funny that *Neville* of all people would be the one he thought of first--why not Ron? But now I see why it might be significant. Lorien_Eve --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mhershey2001" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Vanessa Heggie > wrote: > > Ooh, now we have three connections > > > > 1) my original comment about Harry's choice of secret > > identity on the night bus > > > > 2) Annemehr said: > > >Yes, there is at least one. In GoF, Ch. 31, after > > Harry had seen > > >the trial of the DEs who had tortured the Longbottoms > > he is lying > > >awake in bed relating Neville's plight to his own. > > > > 3) and Julie/farmcatnow said > > >There seem to be A LOT of Harry/Neville references > > now that I am re- > > >reading the books. One that strikes me (because I am > > 1/2 way through > > >PoA) When he is worried about quiddich, Harry has a > > dream where he > > >forgot to go to the game and they replaced him with > > Neville. > > > > A fourth, and one which may be very significant, is > > that the sorting hat also took a long time to deal > > with Neville, in PS, just as it did with Harry. > > > > Perhaps we should gather these somewhere... > > > > Vanessa > > And here is another, from GoF: After the DADA lesson in which > Moody/Crouch demonstrated the Unforgivable Curses, Harry lays in bed > thinking, and JKR mentions that if Harry had been paying attention, > the lack of snoring from Neville's bed would have indicated that not > everyone in the dorm was sleeping. > > Mhershey > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > __ > > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE > Yahoo! > > Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 00:11:31 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:11:31 -0000 Subject: Lily and Petunia-Who is older (was:Re:So Happy to Have a Witch...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76630 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > I can't remember anything in canon that suggests which sister is > older. This one seems a total blank. Hints, anyone? There is nothing concrete. I think Petunia is older though. Lily was only about 22 (I think) when Harry was born. Vernon and Petunia could aready afford a nice four-bedroom house. That implies to me that Vernon was making a good salary and had probably been working for a few years. I also assumed (for no reason I can think of)that Vernon and Petunia were fairly close in age. Like I said, we have nothing conclusive at all. bibphile From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Aug 12 00:11:51 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:11:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > Does anyone else sit there and get an attack of the Emily Latellas > (spelling not sure about)? Big stroke of what you just know is pure > genius. You and you alone have spotted something in the books that > certainly answers at least a dozen questions and clears up two dozen > more. You rush to share it with the group. And then, well, you know > the rest: "Oh. Well then. That's different. Never mind." > > Big grins and a hearty, thanks guys! :) > Oh, absolutely! I was so excited a few days ago - I thought I'd spotted my first Flint. I ransacked the house to find my OotP, absolutely sure I'd be vindicated; in fact, I was so sure I was right I was going to post it anyway, but I thought I'd just look it up so I could refer to the chapter number. Well, what do you know...I was totally wrong. Just for the record, I thought there was a mixup in the Potions class; Snape told the class that their Draught of Strength should have been steeping for a week, so it was time to go on to the next phase of the potion, and I was sure that that was the potion Harry had mixed up and Snape had thrown away, so he couldn't be working on part two of the potion if part one had been wrecked. Turned out that it was the Draught of Peace he'd spoiled...oh, it was such a letdown! Wanda From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 00:24:53 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:24:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who were Lily's Hogwarts friends? Message-ID: <32.3c922d2e.2c698dd5@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76632 In a message dated 8/11/2003 3:46:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, rredordead at aol.com writes: > Lily had to have had girl friends in school and most likely one > particular girlfriend. I'm sure all of you other female fans out > there, like me, know just how close school age girlfriends can be. > Well, my vote for a best friend would be Alice Longbottom. I know we have no idea how old the Longbottom's are, except that 1)they were young in the picture Harry saw of the original Order and 2)they had to be at least 20 because they were Aurors, which takes 3 yrs training past Hogwarts. Though there's no canon to support it, I can definitely see Alice and Lily as friends, heck, they even had their babies within days of each other (Neville and Harry were both born "as the seventh month died", or something like that, according to DD). I imagine that Harry and Neville played together as babies, before the Potters went into hiding. It would definitely explain why Harry has never heard from Lily's best friend. Just my guess though :) ~RSFJenny :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 00:26:56 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:26:56 -0000 Subject: Lily and Petunia-Who is older (was:Re:So Happy to Have a Witch...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76633 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > > > I can't remember anything in canon that suggests which sister is > > older. This one seems a total blank. Hints, anyone? > > There is nothing concrete. > > I think Petunia is older though. Lily was only about 22 (I think) > when Harry was born. Vernon and Petunia could aready afford a nice > four-bedroom house. That implies to me that Vernon was making a > good salary and had probably been working for a few years. I also > assumed (for no reason I can think of)that Vernon and Petunia were > fairly close in age. > > Like I said, we have nothing conclusive at all. > > bibphile Also, in addition to that, I think that there is also supposed to be somewhat of a generational gap between the two. My mother-in-law was too old to really be part of the sexual and cultural revolution of the 1960's but her sister who is about five years younger came of age just as it was happening and was very hippiesh. I think Petunia is old enough that there is somewhat of a generational gap between the sisters. So Petunia is of a more conservative nature, while Lily is a little more liberal (for lack of better terms) Serena From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Aug 12 00:38:34 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 00:38:34 -0000 Subject: Dead Meat Tatoo - From Bluesqueak Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76634 For those who wondered, the post for the hilarious comment about Sirius's death being thoroughly foreshadowed was by bluesqueak and can be found at post #66794. From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Tue Aug 12 00:44:32 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:44:32 -0400 Subject: chocolate frog cards Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76635 I wonder why Harry isn't on a chocolate frog card? He's in many books, and he's extremely famous. I think he would be on a chocolate frog card. Joj From Cfitz812 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 01:00:52 2003 From: Cfitz812 at aol.com (Claire) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:00:52 -0000 Subject: HQ for the order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yairadubin" wrote: > Where was the HQ for the old ORDER OF TH PHOENIX? Are they going to > relocate now that Sirius is dead, or did the owners of that place die? Me: Perhaps the HQ was Godric's Hollow. It would make sense, in a way, that it was totally destroyed when LV killed Lily and James. Why demolish the house AFTER you've killed the people (minus Harry, of course) in it, unless it had some other function/use? Claire From akhillin at rcn.com Tue Aug 12 01:07:18 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pride and Prejudice (it's OT, honest!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812010718.10245.qmail@web41802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76637 bluesqueak wrote: The James/Darcy parallel is plausible, but I think that in comparing James/Snape to Darcy's treatment of Wickham, you are ignoring the Darcy/Jane Bennet parallels (which, as Wanda points out, may lead us into interesting territory). akh: Thanks for your post to this. In fact, I thought of this late last night, and I was beginning to work out other parallels, but that led me to more speculation than I was ready to post. Snape's mistreatment is ONE reason Lily dislikes James, but there may be other wrongs we don't yet know. Those MIGHT more closely parallel the Bennett/Darcy issue. Snape is not a Wickham. He might be an anti-Wickham figure though. Wickham deserved Darcy's treatment of him. Snape (apparently) didn't deserve James's treatment of him. akh: As far as we know, this is true. I agree in the main that Snape is quite the opposite of Wickham, which would be wise on JKR's part, if she'd like to use the conceit but not muck it up with too many comparisons. I hesitate to call Snape Mr Darcy ::blinks in vague horror:: but Snape starts off with Lily in pretty much the same way Darcy starts off with Elizabeth in the Assembly Rooms. He insults her. He's prejudiced against her because of her background. Again, it's anti- Wickham, not Wickham (who is a flatterer). akh: You're right, and it horrifies me, too. Sirius fits rather well into the Darcy mold, too, with his good looks, patrician background and apparent disdain for the feelings of others. James's `Darcy' role may parallel more Elizabeth's *correct* assessment of Darcy, who *was* arrogant, and rude, and interfering. The point with Darcy was that his good qualities outweighed his bad ones; and when his bad qualities were pointed out to him he was capable of recognising that he needed to change. Presumably, since James became Head Boy, he changed from the `worst memory' scene. Like Darcy, his good qualities outweighed his bad ones. But if Snape is an `anti-Wickham' then he will also continue to change in our perception. Wickham appeared nice, and moral, and hard done by, but underneath was morally rotten and incapable of remorse. Snape appears nasty, and sadistic, and to have deserved every bad thing he's ever got, but underneath ? Pip!Squeak akh: I'd love to see this transformation, given how very much I enjoyed seeing the transformation in P & P. That goes for the Snape transformation, too, and I'd like to see that he really was a rather horrible person and made better choices. Whether we get the full scene or just moments remains to be seen. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 01:13:03 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:13:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HQ for the order References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76638 Yairadubin: > Where was the HQ for the old ORDER OF TH PHOENIX? Are they going to > relocate now that Sirius is dead, or did the owners of that place die? Claire: Perhaps the HQ was Godric's Hollow. It would make sense, in a way, that it was totally destroyed when LV killed Lily and James. Why demolish the house AFTER you've killed the people (minus Harry, of course) in it, unless it had some other function/use? Dan: Unless, of course, The Potters' house was obliterated because of the reversal of AK. If other people had access to the house, they would have known who the Secret Keeper was (thus, everyone would have known it was Peter who had betrayed the Potters). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Tue Aug 12 01:20:32 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:20:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HQ for the order Message-ID: <14e.2267b08c.2c699ae0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76639 In a message dated 8/11/2003 9:16:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dangermousehq at hotmail.com writes: > Claire: > Perhaps the HQ was Godric's Hollow. It would make sense, in a way, > that it was totally destroyed when LV killed Lily and James. Why > demolish the house AFTER you've killed the people (minus Harry, of > course) in it, unless it had some other function/use? > > Dan: > Unless, of course, The Potters' house was obliterated because of the > reversal of AK. If other people had access to the house, they would have known who > the Secret Keeper was (thus, everyone would have known it was Peter who had > betrayed the Potters). Cassie: Not entriely true. Remember, Sirius switched with Peter at the last minute. Not even Dumbledore new about it until later. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From doliesl at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 01:21:54 2003 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:21:54 -0000 Subject: Veritaserum question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76640 > -Dan, who wonders what would have happened if Harry had drunk one of Umbridge's Veritaserum-overloaded drinks According to Dumbledore, Snape gave Umbridge fake Veritaserum. And I don't see the reason why Snape would wasted good precious truth potions for Umbridge. In his usual subtle way, Snape seemed to be anti-Umbridge as well. -D. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 02:27:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:27:28 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldren, real location? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > > > > Re the comment made by someone about Charing Cross Road, it is not > exactly a short road. It makes an end-on connection with St.Martin's > Lane just north of the National Gallery and ends at St.Giles Circus, > the meeting point with Tottenham Court Road and New Oxford Street. > > I am prepared to hazard that it is meant to be on the north side. > Most of the big shopping streets are on that side of the Thames - > Oxford Street, Regent Street, Bond Street for example. If you go > south of the river, you're tending to get into the administrative > district - Whitehall, Parliament Square etc. The major shopping > street here is Victoria Street. > > I seem to recall that in the film, the shooting location was Borough > Market, further to the east. > > Geoff bboy_mn: I will always yield to superior knowledge but I have consulted several maps, both on-line and off, and the only Charing Cross Road I can find is about 1 kilometer long, and is on the eastern border of the Soho neighborhood. Charing Cross Rd is a roughly north/south street that starts out as Tottenham Court Road, but the name changes when it intersects with Oxford Street. It then runs south until it is near the bend in the Thames River, and near Charing Cross Station. Then it crosses Strand which is an East/West road, the next nearest north/south road is Whitehall which continues south until the name changes to Parliment Street. This intersection of Charing Cross Rd and Oxford St. is less than a kilometer east of the intersection of Regent Street and Oxford Street. And, yes, I have been lead to believe that this general Oxford/Regent area is a famous shopping area in London; also near the theater district, the famous Soho neighborhood, and not far from St. James Park, St. James Palace, and Green Park which is the location of Buckingham Palace. But then what do I know, I've never been there. By the way is it Char-ing Cross Rd. as in Charcoal, or is it a long 'A', more like Chair-ing Cross Rd. On the other hand, it could be Kar-ing Cross or Kare-ing Cross. bboy_mn From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 02:27:43 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:27:43 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76642 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sara_ELL" wrote: > > Actually - as an aside, this may be another thing that troubled- > teenage!Snape has with highly-troubled-teenage!Harry, if you read > the article put out on "The Leaky Cauldron" website which recalls > the number of times Harry is mentioned bathing or cleaning himself > in the series and finds it... lacking That was a good article, I personally believe it was written under a nom de plume by none other than Severus Snape as retaliation against Harry's snooping. . > > The long grey nightshirt is, by extrapolation therefore somewhat > troubling as in my deepest of hearts, I really, really would hope > that Snape would have mastered the art of bathing by the age 35 (or > however old he is meant to be). I shall comfort myself with the > thought that Snape's nightshirt, neither black nor white, is a > reflection of his character itself - mysterious and grey. Oh come on...maybe that nightshirt CAME grey. It is possible to buy grey clothing you know. I don't have either book with me now but wasn't a distiction made about the underwear--that it "greying" to indicate it wasn't new/clean or however one chooses to read that? The nightshirt was just...well grey. I agree with the other post...what ELSE could JKR have written Snape in as far as nightwear---ok a velvet smoking jacket perhaps but I just don't see it. Besides as it's been mentioned 1,000 times, the house elves at HW do the laundry. Unless Snape is wearing this nightshirt under his robes every day to hide it from them just to see how grimy he can get it, (ok, yes it's a possibility) the house elves are keeping it as clean and as grey as it was the day it arrived in its 3-pack from the Wizarding World's version of the Sears catalog. Melpomene--who knows a little about single men of the scientific type and how little value they place on fashion, especially fashion no one else is supposed to see--and who actually owns grey jammies that came that way from the store (NOT in a 3-pack)--and who is a raving Snapefan who would rather NOT entertain that bikini picture. From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 03:05:10 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:05:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] chocolate frog cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812030510.15918.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76643 mom31 wrote: Joj said: I wonder why Harry isn't on a chocolate frog card? He's in many books, and he's extremely famous. I think he would be on a chocolate frog card. --------------- It's got to be coming, and about time, too! Maybe the last line of the 7th book will be a reflection by a 1st year Hogwart's student on their first train ride, looking at a chocolate frog card of Harry and commenting on his scar . . . owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Aug 12 03:09:44 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 03:09:44 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76644 Joe asked: > I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about what James and > Lily's occupations were. Are we to assume that they were Aurors? I > remember vaguely in an interview with J.K. a long time ago, she said > that she couldn't say what there occupations were because it would be > revealed later on. Now we know that they have thrice defeated He who > blah blah blah but does that neccessarily mean that they were > Aurors. I also remember in that interview that J.K said that James > inherited a lot of money so he didn't have to have a real high paying > job. Any thoughts? I don't know what their jobs were, but I'm pretty sure they weren't Aurors. First of all, the Auror training program seems to be pretty intensive, and James and Lily were between two and four years out of Hogwarts when they died. Seems a pretty short time period to complete training and on top of that see enough action to defeat Voldemort three times. Also, the Order members who were Aurors have been identified as such repetitively. Why would everyone fail to mention this fact when talking about James' and Lily's involvement in VW1? It would be a natural point to bring up, but no one has. Makes me think they were doing something either much more secretive or completely unrelated when the war began. -Corinth From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 03:09:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 03:09:46 -0000 Subject: HQ for the order- Curse Destructive Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Yairadubin: > > Where was the HQ for the old ORDER OF TH PHOENIX? Are they going > > to relocate now that Sirius is dead, or did the owners of that place > > die? > > Claire: > Perhaps the HQ was Godric's Hollow. It would make sense, in a way, > that it was totally destroyed when LV killed Lily and James. ... > > Dan: > Unless, of course, The Potters' house was obliterated because of the > reversal of AK. > bboy_mn: People keep wondering how the Death Curse could destroy a house. Afteral, the people who are killed by the Death Curse are left unmarked. But they are forgetting all the battle scenes including the ones in the current book where spells that miss their target blast a chunk of the wing off a stone angel, blast a crater into the floor where Neville's hand had been just seconds before, where Dumbledore smashed a door with a Stunning Curse when he stuns fake!Moody who is standing behind the door, where Bellatrix Death Curse tears the head off a metal statue. Also, note that spells that the student DA's practice on each other basically just do their intended task. The Impediment Jinx that just slows things down in practice sessions, violently knocks people off their feet under actual battle conditions. The magical intent behind a curse determines it's distructive potential. Point? Even spells that typically don't have a physically destructive effect when they are on target, can become distructive when they are off target, or are backed up with a vicious intent. I would say that Voldemort's intent in killing Harry was about a vicious and powerful as it could possible be, therefore, when it rebounded it carried a huge potential for physical damage. Just a thought. bboy_mn From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 03:39:27 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 20:39:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Writing Faster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812033927.3893.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76646 I just saw a guy being interviewed on CNN tonight (I didn't catch his name because I didn't see the whole interview), and he made a comment that JKR is trying to write the last two books faster. Apparently to keep up with the movies since they're going to start filming the 4th movie soon, while the 3rd one is still being made (because of the kids are aging). ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From subrosax at earthlink.net Tue Aug 12 03:54:20 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 03:54:20 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "junediamanti" > > wrote: > > > I think we are reading too much into all this - let's face it it > > > would have totally destroyed his image if he'd had "a dazzling > > white > > > freshly laundered and starched nightshirt" or "silk pyjamas and > a > > > maroon silk dressing gown" or "bikini scanties". He may crave > good > > > nightwear and underwear the way I crave good red wine of a > night, > > > but he's is just not going to cut it as the resident spooky guy > if > > > he dresses up better. My own advice to him would be that black > > > undies and nightwear would improve his image a helluva lot - and > > > would go with all his other black stuff. > > > > > > Just a thought. > > > > > > June > > > > > Laura: > > > > Oh my. The image of Snape in binikis does not bear thinking > about. > > Well, maybe if you're a Snape fan. But still...where do wizards > get > > their lingerie anyhow? *blushes and grins* > > I am a Snape fan, but I feel overlong contemplation of some of the > above thoughts requires an exceptionally diseased imagination. > > Damn, my exceptionally good visuals are working way way too well > tonight. > > June > > (Mops brow, contemplates cold shower, followed by long lie down in > very darkened room counting imaginary hedgehogs to ward off > unwelcome imagery) > > "It is a comfort in wretchedness to have companions in woe" > > Christopher Marlowe, Dr Faustus When I first read the infamous "underwear scene", all I could think was "please God, let him NOT be wearing those hideous euro-trash bikini underpants!" I prefer to think of Snape as a boxer man. One can only hope that the traumatic humiliation he received at the hands of the Marauders at least motivated him to ditch those manky grey drawers in favor of something a bit...cleaner. As for the nightshirt, I always pictured it as being similar to this awful thing I was given to wear when I was staying in East Berlin. (Back when it was still part of the Evil Empire.) It was distinctly greying, with one sleeve slightly shorter than the other. It had clearly never come into contact with anything remotely resembling fabric softener and though it was clean, it smelled very institutional. In other words, right up Snape's alley. I think I'll go put on some Barry White records and dream about Snape and his Stalinist lingerie. I'll contact a mental health facility in the morning. Allyson From patientx3 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 04:22:22 2003 From: patientx3 at aol.com (HunterGreen) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 04:22:22 -0000 Subject: houses/ snape's worst memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76648 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abhamghp" wrote: > Anyway, that's my theory and my reasons behind it. I know that > Harry says Ron reminds him of another Gryffindor Quidditch Player, > but could Harry just be assuming that James was in Gryffindor? THe > sorting hat considered putting Harry in Slytherin. Could that be > because he possesses many of his father's characteristics? Personally I very much doubt that James could have been in Slytherin. There's a statement in OoP (made by Sirius toward the end of chapter 29) that James 'always hated the dark arts', which would make it doubtful that he would be put in Slytherin. He could be in any house (except maybe hufflepuff) and still be a jerk. Harry was most likely nearly put into Slytherin because of having Voldemort's characteristics, not his father's (I'm referring to the parseltongue and the other 'powers' passed unintentially to Harry that DD hinted at in CoS). James was also *very* offended by the mudblood comment in the pensieve scene, which he'd be more used to hearing if he was in Slytherin (and would a Slytherin marry a muggle-born?). -HG From angellslin at yahoo.com.hk Tue Aug 12 04:46:36 2003 From: angellslin at yahoo.com.hk (angellslin) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 04:46:36 -0000 Subject: Lily and Petunia-Who is older & Marvolo - faternal or maternal grandfather In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > > > I can't remember anything in canon that suggests which sister is > > older. This one seems a total blank. Hints, anyone? > > There is nothing concrete. > > I think Petunia is older though. Lily was only about 22 (I think) > when Harry was born. Vernon and Petunia could aready afford a nice > four-bedroom house. That implies to me that Vernon was making a > good salary and had probably been working for a few years. I also > assumed (for no reason I can think of)that Vernon and Petunia were > fairly close in age. > > Like I said, we have nothing conclusive at all. > > bibphile I read these threads coming out from time to time, being interested to know the specific relationships among the characters of the book. Let me share some "hints" with you. We Chinese put a great emphasis on family, giving exact and specific term of how each member relate to one another within her/his clanship. In the Chinese version of Harry Potter (from Taiwan), Lily is the *YOUNGER* sister of Petunia. On the other hand, Tom Riddle explained his name in CoS that "Tom after my father, Marvolo after my grandfather". In Chinese, the "grandfather" was translated into "the MATERNAL grandfather", i.e. the father of Tom's witch mother. Angel From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 22:58:05 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:58:05 -0000 Subject: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76650 Buttercup's original message: > > > >I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > > > >is plausible. Margaret said: > I just had to post that I am in total agreement with Sydney on this > one. I personally am one of those people who never shuts up, and is > generally making (good hearted) jokes at her friend's expense (is it > any wonder my favorite characters are Fred and George?) but who > couldn't form a coherent sentence when around a boy I was interested > in in high school (still sneaks up on me occassionally). My friends > actually found it an amusing indicator of who I currently had a crush > on at the time. Luckily I went through crushes like socks, so after > my affection switched to another guy, I went back to my real > personality. A (former) crush remarked on this turn-around on more > than one occassion. (my friends were forbidden from revealing the > cause, though ;-) > > So yes, Ginny's evolving into a more outgoing character was not only > realistic, I actually expected it to happen. Ginny reminds me very much of Lily. I cannot remember exactly where I read it, but Lily was supposed to be very good at Charms. And it is either Fred or George who says that Ginny is also good at cursing. She is after all, the one who frees everyone from Draco and his gang in Umbridge's office. Her personality is also very much like Lily. I wonder if anyone will make that connection and point this out to Harry. Ron certainly wants Ginny to be with Harry. Witness his reaction when Ginny says she isn't going with Michael anymore. Ron gives Harry a very pointed look. I think it would be the "happy ever after" ending. After all, this is a children's book. I know JKR has given hits that Harry won't survive into adulthood. But she is notorious for giving Red Herrings! It seems to me that having Harry become a real part of a large and loving wizarding family would be the perfect juxtaposition to Harry at the beginning of his history. It gives the story a sort of balance. Donna From fc26det at aol.com Mon Aug 11 23:03:47 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:03:47 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76651 Hi, > But if the brother or brothers were also killed by LV, that would > also explain Petunia's look of terror when Harry tells her he's > back. She may have lost her whole family at his hand and that is why > she is trying to keep Harry from being a wizard. > Susan From michelle_malfoy at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 23:24:11 2003 From: michelle_malfoy at hotmail.com (Michelle Malfoy) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 19:24:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups]: Snape in James' debt? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76652 Hi, Just a ramdom thought, could be right could be wrong. But in the prophecy it says that James and Lily went up against Voldemort three times, during one of those encounters whouldn't it be possible for James to encounter some DE and have Snape being just one of those DE's? When James realizes that one of the DE's is his old 'friend' Severus Snape could he have not spared him, leaving Snape in his debt. This would obviously spark even more hatred for James in Snape's heart. Yet, Snape is left in the debt of James, he owes him. Snape does not strike me as the person to want to stay in somebodies debt, especially his arch rival, James' debt. Now, when one of Volemort's spies finds out about the curse and comes and tells Voldemort, Snape hears this and goes to Dumbledore. Thus, enabling James and Lily to hide there son and eliminating Snape's debt to James! I can only support this by these following questions: 1. How does Dumbledore, know that he was being over-heard in Hog's Head Inn? He says that he learned that night that is was not safe to assume that you are not being over heard when in Hog's Head Inn. Dumbledore would have to be told that he was overheard in the Inn, because he states that in the fifth book that there is only one person who remembers the prophecy perfectly. Since, Professor Trelawney has proven in the past to have no knowledge of here prophecies. So in my opinion it was safe to say that Dumbledore believed that he was the only one who heard it until Snape shows up and tells him that somebody else heard part of the prophecy. 2. How does James and Lily know that they are being targeted themselves? The prophecy leaves the door open for two couples to be possible targets. Why then had not Neville's parents went into hiding? Snape telling Dumbledore that Voldemort was going after Harry could allow James and Lily to go into hiding before it was too late. Could this by why Snape is soooo angry at James, and notice just James. Snape doesn't have a lot of hard feelings for Lily. Snape wants to believe that James is an arrogent, self-centered bully that delighted in torturing people. With James sparing Snapes life, it would show to Snape that James is not what or who Snape orginally thought him to be. This would also explain the fact why Snape hates Harry, Harry is a constant reminder of James and what James did for Snape. Also, it would support why Snape in Book #1 was actually using a counter-curse on Professor Quirrel's curse to attempt to curse Harry's new broom, if Harry died, Snape's betrayel of Voldemort would have been in vain. I would interested on what anyone else has to say, this is just one of my theories. I really have only speculation to rely on when it comes to this plot, but could you imagine Snape in James' debt. Interesting story-line, at least in my opinion. I am anxious to hear peoples thoughts on this. Michelle_Malfoy _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 23:24:56 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:24:56 -0000 Subject: FILK- Harry, Harry Little Star Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76653 It's to the tune of Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. Hope you enjoy! (Harry, Harry, Little Star is based on SS chapters 1 - 6) Harry, Harry, little star, on his forehead, there's a scar He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named tried to take Harry Potter's life The curse backfired, for years he hid, Harry is The Boy Who Lived When his mum and dad were gone, he was left without a home Hagrid flew him to Privet Drive on Sirius' borrowed ride Minerva put up a little struggle; "Don't leave him with these crazy muggles!" Dudley's birthdays were the pits, He'd get sent to Mrs. Figg's Dudley'd eat cake, getting fat; Harry'd look at all Figg's cats One year, she'd broken her leg; Harry went to the zoo instead Visiting the reptile house, snake wishes he could get out Dudley runs up to the glass, knocks poor Harry on his ass One blink and the glass just vanished, to his cupboard, Harry was banished One day, mail came through the slot, one letter young Harry got Mr. H. Potter, Privet Drive, you won't believe what's inside Uncle Vernon's face turns red tearing the letter to shreds Vernon took the family to a hut out in the sea Midnight strikes and Hagrid knocks, to see such a man they are all shocked Flames and pigtails, this guy's scary, then he says, "You're a wizard, Harry." Off to Diagon Alley to buy the things Harry needs Gringotts, wand, that blond boy's foul, Hagrid buys Harry an owl "Happy Birthday!" says Hagrid, Harry names his owl Hedwig. King's Cross Station to the train, Harry thinks it's all in vain He sees platforms ten and nine, three-quarters he cannot find Molly helps; he has success; there it is! Hogwarts Express! Red-haired boy enters the car; Harry shows his lightning scar "Wow!" is all that he can say, he's Ron Weasley, by the way Reading cards from Chocolate Frogs, toad-less boy enters the car Here's some girl in Hogwarts robes to help him look for his lost toad Sunshine, daisies, butter mellow, turn this stupid, fat rat yellow Are you sure that's a real spell? Mine all seem to work real well! D'you know what House you will be in? Hufflepuff or Slytherin? Ravenclaw would not be bad, if that was the choice I had I hope I am in Gryffindor, just like Albus Dumbledore! Then three boys enter the car, Harry wonders who they are. One he's seen and knows on sight, his blond hair is almost white Draco Malfoy is his name; Crabbe and Goyle are dumb and lame. A voice calls for the first year kids, Harry sees that it's Hagrid The giant and the kids all take little boats across the lake Windows sparkle underneath the stars, "Welcome, Harry, to Hogwarts!" From daluben4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 01:07:51 2003 From: daluben4 at yahoo.com (daluben4) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:07:51 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76654 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > Personally, I think either Dumbledore or Harry HAS to tell Neville. > Especially, because Voldemort only knows the part of the prophecy > that refers to both boys. Therefore, there is at least the > possibility that Voldemort wants to kill both boys because of the > prophecy, and Neville must IMO be warned. But maybe his grandmother > already knows and decides to tell him. If Harry doesn't tell Ron & Hermione about the prophecy, then Dumbledore might choose to do so himself. I think there's no question that he recognizes their role as Harry's friends, advisors, and *backup*. It would make sense for them to know how serious the threat to Harry is, for their own protection as well as Harry's, but also because it might (will!) influence what decisions are "right" and "wrong" for Harry in 6 & 7. I know that Dumbledore has previous shown a reluctance to reveal personal information (Neville's parents) but I see this as less of an emotional issue for Harry and more of a practical one. From catportkey at aol.com Tue Aug 12 01:16:17 2003 From: catportkey at aol.com (catportkey at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:16:17 EDT Subject: Final Battle Message-ID: <17a.1ec66a38.2c6999e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76655 Final Battle There has to be a final standoff between Harry and LV. My assumption is that Harry, who, much like his dad, may want to learn how to become an Animagi in book 6, i.e., a stag. If that is so, and assuming LV is also an Animagi, (obviously a snake . . . a VERY LARGE venomous snake), there should be a battle between them in this form in book 7. Also taking into consideration Dumbledore's comment that Peter may help Harry later on, the final battle may be as such: It will take place in a cave (snakes like to hide in rocks). Harry and LV know their wands are useless, since they cancel each other out. Harry changes into a stag, which has "prongs" to stab with, while LV becomes a snake with fangs of poison. The battle is heavy and wounds are given in both directions. It is Peter, as Scabbers, who realizes that only he can turn the tide. Harry may be losing the battle and is about to be finished, when Scabbers bites the tail of LV. The distraction is enough for Harry's antlers to maul and pin LV to the cave wall, then toss LV across the cave floor. Only then can Harry turn human again and grab his wand to preform "Avada Kedevra" (the killing curse) against LV. But it is Nagini who attacks Scabbers. Harry kills Nagini and pulls Scabbers from Nagini's mouth. Once again human, Peter begs for forgiveness, which Harry grants. Peter dies. As in each book, Harry has been close to death and risen again and again. I feel the same will be here. As to how, I'm not sure. Possibly the Philosopher's Stone was not completely destroyed as Dumbledore claimed and Harry is brought back to life with that. Pook [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From daluben4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 01:18:17 2003 From: daluben4 at yahoo.com (daluben4) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:18:17 -0000 Subject: Department of Mysteries In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76656 blaisezz (Ria) wrote: >... I got to thinking about the > mysterious Department of Mysteries. There are twelve doors off the > circular room, one of which leads back to the corridor, and the > other eleven (I assume) lead into other rooms. Each of these rooms seem > to represent a fundamental mystery of life: > > 1. The room with the veil== death (even Dumbledore confirms this > by calling it the death room) > 2. The room with the brains== human intelligence or possibly > memories as that is what the brain attacks Ron with. > 3. The room with the planets== the wider Universe (?) > 4. The room with the time-turners== time > 5. The locked room == `a force that is at once more wonderful > than and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the > forces of nature' love or human emotion > 6. The above quote makes me think there may be a room concerned > with the forces of nature > 7. ? > 8. ? > 9. ? > 10. ? > 11. ? > 12. The door back to the corridor >... An interesting thought that occurred to me is that all these "mysteries" may be tied up in one central theme: Death. JKR has said that death is very important and that we'd learn more about it. Don't have specific quotes handy. But, the point is: Studying the process of dying (the Death Room), human mind/consciousness (the Brain Room), the nature of time (the Time-Turner Room), and the Universe at large (the Planet Room) could all be associated with trying to understand what it means to be alive and, at some point, die. That doesn't explain the "Powerful Force" room (although love does seem to be the main thing that links us to people who have died) nor the remaining unidentified rooms, though. Also, on a possibly related note, we know that Voldemort has been trying to conquer death. He was doing it before he took on Harry, and that's why (or so we are led to believe) he didn't actually DIE when his own A.K. curse backfired on him. So, maybe Voldemort has some connection to the MoM's research on death or, at least, maybe we're getting a hint that overcoming death is a major fascination for the wizarding community. From daluben4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 01:30:59 2003 From: daluben4 at yahoo.com (daluben4) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:30:59 -0000 Subject: Rise of the next Dark Lord? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jonathan" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" > wrote: > > Seeing how evil in the Harry Potter Universe doesn't seem to take a > > break first with Grindelwald who is followed later by Voldemort > does > > anyone think that after the fall of Voldemort at the hands of our > > heroes that someone else perhaps Draco Malfoy will just come and > > replace Riddle as the next big bad? > > Draco doesn't have the brains or the initiative. Lucius, on the > other hand, might make a fine replacement. > > In my mind, this ties in with the thread about what Harry will do > after Book 7, if he survives. Every hero needs a villian. Most > posts I've read seem to think Harry will either become an auror (more > likely in my opinion), or will retire to the county living off a > percentage of the Gred and Forge business. > > These options both sound anti-climactic to me, unless a suitable > villian replaces Voldemort. I can't imagine Harry retiring in the country at the ripe old age of 17. That'd have to get boring after about 20 years, right? As for the Auror thing, I think JKR is toying with us. IMO, it's too obvious. I think it will stay around as a potential career, at least in book 6, but I don't think that's where he'll end up. Partly, that's because I *don't* think there will be a post-Voldemort super- villain right at the end of the series (although I also don't think we'll be left with the impression that evil is banished forever). All that to say, I think Harry could end up DADA teacher at Hogwarts. We've seen some hints that he has talent in this area, in fact I even saw a comment from a teacher somewhere (probably on TLC!) saying that he used good technique in the DA sessions. The DADA job would put Harry in a position to continue fighting dark wizardry *and* stay at Hogwarts, the first real home he has ever known. Also, it would be sort of a fitting epilogue if we learned that Harry was the first DADA teacher to survive more than a year! From diverchick41 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 00:53:41 2003 From: diverchick41 at hotmail.com (diverchick41@hotmail) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 17:53:41 -0700 Subject: The Original Order of the Phoenix References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76658 RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > A curious question about the original Order - did DD found it before or after > the prophecy was made? We know it's a secret society against LV, but back > then everyone knew LV was a bad guy and they were all fighting him, so why the > necessity of creating this Order? > ~RSFJenny And Ravenclaw Bookworm said: >>>Voldemort seemed to be picking people off one at a time and everyone was terrified. I think it was Arthur Weasley who said (scene after the Dark Mark at the QWC?) that no one would talk to others because no one knew who to trust. So the order was formed around a small core of people to coordinate the defense against Voldemort.<<<< I think the Orginal Order was founded before the prophecy mainly because L/J and Neville's parents had already gone up against Voldemort 3 times when the prophecy was made (or before they were killed, it's uncertain, but THREE times is alot!) since you don't just randomly bump into LV on the street, their parents had probaly been on missions. -my thoughts for what they're worth! Fortuna Fatum From duckumu222 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 23:12:03 2003 From: duckumu222 at hotmail.com (Duckumu) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 23:12:03 -0000 Subject: Is Ron a Seer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ajlboston" wrote: > Hi, I can't find the thread that was here a while back (tried a > search) but felt upon the latest rereading of OOP and GOF, it's too > weirdly coincidental. I dunno if he's a 7th son of a 7th son or not, > but when Ron actually remembers his dreams, or comes up with fake > predictions for homework, or even saw himself in Erised., it's eerie > how accurate they are. Nobody notices yet, especially Ron. I'd want > to pay attention to anything that comes up in the future, even if he > thinks Divination is rubbish. Has this thread died out? I wonder > who else among purebloods he is related to-- Cassandra or anyone? > > Thinking, > > A.J. There is a section on this in Ron's character page on the HPFGU FAQ that provides a few examples of evidence to this and, I think, links to a few threads. From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 05:30:16 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:30:16 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Lupin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76660 Hi everybody, here is a new poster who was just asking himself about Dumbledore's lack of reaction concerning the fact that Snape informed (as Lupin himself states it at the end of PoA) the students' parents of his "werewolfsness" ; something that, as a consequence, led to the latter's getting fired and prevented him from hoping for another job (as far as I know, Dumbledore did not really manage to keep him as in Hogwarts). That surely means (as we have begun to aknowledge it in GoF and OoP) that Dumbledore relies heavily on Snape but at the same time he refuses to give him the job of professor of defense against the dark arts however skilled and well-suited for that job he may seems (save Dumbledore and Voldemort, he is probably with Bellatrix, of course, the one character that best knows what you got to learn in order to master the dark arts ; and remember, as Lupin himself tells Harry in OoP, he is as well "a superb occlumens" - and there are only three known occlumens in the book, Snape, Dumbledore and Voldemort : that definitely sets him apart from the other wizards (including the DEs)). There must be something about Snape and Dumbledore that we don't know yet. What do you think that might be ? aam. From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 05:37:20 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:37:20 -0000 Subject: Will Harry Tell Ron & Hermione About The Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "daluben4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > Personally, > I think either Dumbledore or Harry HAS to tell Neville. > > Especially, because Voldemort only knows the part of the prophecy > > that refers to both boys. Therefore, there is at least the > > possibility that Voldemort wants to kill both boys because of the > > prophecy, and Neville must IMO be warned. But maybe his grandmother > > already knows and decides to tell him. > > If Harry doesn't tell Ron & Hermione about the prophecy, then > Dumbledore might choose to do so himself. I think there's no > question that he recognizes their role as Harry's friends, advisors, > and *backup*. It would make sense for them to know how serious the > threat to Harry is, for their own protection as well as Harry's, but > also because it might (will!) influence what decisions are "right" > and "wrong" for Harry in 6 & 7. I know that Dumbledore has previous > shown a reluctance to reveal personal information (Neville's parents) > but I see this as less of an emotional issue for Harry and more of a > practical one. As I see things at the end of OoP, it is unlikely that Dumbledore will do anything against Harry's will and assent. Since he blames himself for the event that took place in OoP, I really don't think he will repeat what he already considers a tremendous mistake : going against Harry's will by treating him like a child. aam. From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 05:40:55 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 22:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] JKR Writing Faster In-Reply-To: <20030812033927.3893.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030812054055.78881.qmail@web20513.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76662 Buttercup wrote: I just saw a guy being interviewed on CNN tonight (I didn't catch his name because I didn't see the whole interview), and he made a comment that JKR is trying to write the last two books faster. Apparently to keep up with the movies since they're going to start filming the 4th movie soon, while the 3rd one is still being made (because of the kids are aging). now me- I hope that is true. I am also excited that they are filming faster, I believe it would be horrendous if we all of the sudden got a new Harry or Ron or Hermione or anyone, that would change the aesthetics of the films. i am grateful they are filming faster because the kids are aging, I hope that we get to see them all finish these movies. eowynn_24 ********** ADMIN: Please direct all replies to this thread to the HPfGU-Movie list, because the thread is no longer discussing the books: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPFGU-Movie/ Thanks! --Dicentra, for the Admin Team *********** From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 06:32:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:32:57 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76663 This post isn't going to amount to much. I guess it's just as much a comment on JKR's writing style as it is about Harry's personality. Have you noticed that every (nearly every) time Harry lies, it's called a lie and usually includes a reflection of quilt and self-awareness of his action on Harry's part. This is significant because, in nearly every case, we as the reader are well aware that Harry is lying. The act is so clear that it really matters not whether the narrative says '...Harry said.' or '...Harry lied.'. If the lie itself is so self-evident to the reader then why point it out? I think it is because JKR want to constantly remind us, that Harry is aware that he is lying. Of course, common sense says Harry knows his statement is false, but he knows it in a much deeper sense; there is a part of him that is intimately aware that what he is doing is wrong. In a sense, when the narrative say, '...Harry lied' we are seeing a bit of Harry conscience peaking through. Also, notice in the latest book, now that Harry knows he must ultimately kill Voldemort or be kill by him, and even though he is well aware of how evil the Dark Lord is, and even knowing that he will probably have to kill Voldemort in the defense of his own life, Harry still calls it murder. He will have to murder or be murdered. I think that is a very special insight into Harry's conscience too, and I think it should make us realize just what a horrible burden this Prophecy is. When Dumbledore and Harry are talking about power Harry has that Voldemort doesn't, Harry finds that hard to believe. He reminds Dumbledore that he couldn't possible do all the things that he saw the Dark Lord do in the Ministry of Magic battle scene. Most poignantly, he reminds Dumbledore that "...I can't possess people--or kill them--". I think he is speaking of something far deeper and more ingrained in himself than the knowledge of the appropriate curses or skill. These were just a couple of little clues that gave me an insight into Harry's character. Many other people have said, that they just can't picture Harry killing Voldemort, not even in self-defense. I haven't alway held that opinion, but as I think about it in light of the current book, I find it hard and hard to imagine Harry doing such I thing. I would prefer to think that Harry will vanquish and destroy Voldemort, not with a show of force, but with an unexpected act of mercy. The trouble is, I just don't know how JKR could ever maneuver Voldemort into a state of mind where that act of mercy would have that enormous impact on him. One the other hand, if I am to maintain my faith in Harry and the principle he appears to stand for, there has to be some kind of passive vanquishing of Voldemort, but I don't have a clue what it could be. Just a thought. bboy_Mn From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Aug 12 06:38:20 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:38:20 -0000 Subject: Other Children's Lit (Re: [HPforGrownups] Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030810155446.00a68a90@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76664 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth wrote: > At 05:16 PM 8/9/2003 +0000, feetmadeofclay wrote: > >And I would like to know if Potter is the only children's lit you > >are reading. Or what books you loved as kids. And of course why... > > Another series that I read and enjoy is Lemony Snicket's A Series > of Unfortunate Events. I find its sense of humor entertaining. I > also like the break from traditional children's stories...because > none of the stories in the series ends happily. The speculations > into the deeper mysteries in the book are also very entertaining. I absolutely loved Susan Coopers "The Dark is Rising" series, and still do. (Book 2, "The Dark is Rising, especially, as I accidentally started the series with that one, and still find it the best of the series) The writing, imagery, and back story was wonderful on this series. (A piece of fanfiction that is an excellent crossover between HP & "The Dark is Rising" has been written, too, "Harry Potter and The Legacy of Light".) Two things I noticed on rereading: Will Stanton's father is named James, and the towns postmistress is named Mrs. Pettigrew... --Arcum From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 12 05:54:09 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 01:54:09 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: the Fat Lady - Name References: Message-ID: <3F388101.4010806@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76665 Steve wrote: > > As long as we are on the subject, does anyone find it odd that the Fat > Lady has never been identified? Not at all. There are many paintings of unnamed subjects. To pick a single example, Vermeer's "Girl with a Pearl Earring". From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 12 06:07:10 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 02:07:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Marauders Map References: Message-ID: <3F38840E.20706@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76666 tallulah_sam wrote: > Hello! My first post so very sorry if this has been mentioned and > sorted out before but here goes anyway! In PoA why didn't Harry or > Fred and George ever see Peter Pettigrew on the marauders map? Lupin > saw both Peter and Sirius so we know it shows animagi.... any ideas > or theories?? It is possible that the map shows different things to different people. Like spam-blocking software, it could filter out information that would not be useful to the person looking at it. Lupin knew Pettigrew, so he showed up on the map. Harry didn't, so he didn't. Or, even more likely, the creators of the map made sure that they themselves did not show up on it when someone other than themselves was using it. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 06:47:43 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:47:43 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldron, real location? I Know! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76667 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" wrote: > I remember, even though cannot say exactly which page, in PS/SS that > Hagrid and Harry get the train to LONDON BRIDGE, which is south of > the river, full of little scruffy non-descriptive shops, back alleys > hidden to public view, and with a pub near it on a main road with > loads of passing-by-fast-but-not-stopping-here trafic. I have seen > the place before I read the books, and associated straight away with > Diagon Alley and The Leaky Cauldron. In fact, the pub I am talking > about is very thin, and has a hidden alley on the back with loads of > warehouse suppliers that you can only get to if you know they are > there, thruw a small hidden passage in a back road. You can hear the > buzz from the wharehouses from the pub, but from the main road you > can`t. Also from the warehouses you can only see the brick wall of > the pub and other buildings, that form a high wall in the shape of a > half moon, where you do`t hear the main road either. The locals at > the pub look "suspicious" or like hags. And the warehouses are > suppliers of imported goods, such as exotic spices, oils, and some > strange things in glass jars. > I have been meaning to go back there, but never really had the time. > London Bridge is a most weird place, and it fits in with JKR's > description. Geoff: I see no reference to London Bridge in the book. "Harry had never been to London before. Although Hagrid seemed to know where he was going, he was obviously not used to getting there in an ordinary way. He got stuck in the ticket barrier on the Underground and complained loudly that the seats were too small and the trains too slow. "I don't know how the Muggles manage without magic", he said as they climbed a broken-down escalator which led up to a bustling road lined with shops." Geoff: That isn't London Bridge. The exits from the Tube bring you into the main railway station concourse which is a bus station. London Bridge is very much a commercial district and there are no major shopping roads immediately by the station. A few line further on... "They passed book shops and music stores, hamburger bars and cinemas..." I wonder if you are confusing this with the film? I said yesterday that I think I read somewhere that the film location for the Leaky Cauldron was the Borough Market area which /is/ in the area where the main railway line to Cannon Street diverges from the Charing Cross- London Bridge line. Geoff From greatelderone at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 06:52:00 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:52:00 -0000 Subject: Rise of the next Dark Lord? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76668 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "daluben4" wrote: > > I can't imagine Harry retiring in the country at the ripe old age of > 17. That'd have to get boring after about 20 years, right? Right, but after defeating Voldemort and probably losing many of his friends and undergoing lots of suffering I think the kid definitely needs a vacation. > As for the Auror thing, I think JKR is toying with us. IMO, it's too > obvious. I think it will stay around as a potential career, at least > in book 6, but I don't think that's where he'll end up. Partly, > that's because I *don't* think there will be a post-Voldemort super- > villain right at the end of the series (although I also don't think > we'll be left with the impression that evil is banished forever). However there would still be the problem of hunting down the remaining DEs and Voldemort supporters like in the last war. If anything I think the position of auror will be an interim job that he could use to get more experience on fighting the dark arts and help him in becoming the next Dumbledore or the great wizard that Riddle would have become if he didn't go to the dark side. > All that to say, I think Harry could end up DADA teacher at > Hogwarts. We've seen some hints that he has talent in this area, in > fact I even saw a comment from a teacher somewhere (probably on TLC!) > saying that he used good technique in the DA sessions. Couldn't possibly be a livejournal could it? > *and* stay at Hogwarts, the first real home he has ever known. That just makes him seem psychologically messed up and unable to move on with life. However i can certainly see the merits of him becoming the next dada teacher since he would be training a new generation of wizards to fight the next dark lord. From ktd7 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 07:08:06 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:08:06 -0000 Subject: Pensieve question... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76669 Do we know if the pensieve works more as a video recorder or as a personal recollection of events? In Snape's penseive, Harry saw Snape following James & Co. He was concerned that Snape wouldn't stay where he could see his father, but Snape stayed near them. It appeared as though Snape was deliberately staying in viewing/hearing range of the group in spite of the fact that Snape was a frequent target of their derision. Was Snape spying on them? Was he taunting them? Was he looking for a chance to show up James? It seems odd that he would be innocently hanging around so close by. If the penseive records memories from the user's perspective, can those memories be trusted as fact, or are they tainted by the user's own feelings? Few of us can trust our memories to be completely accurate... too many things can "color" our recollections. If you were the person who was "picked on", you might imagine the events as being much worse than they actually were. If you were the "bully", you might remember the victim doing something to provoke the event that the victim never thought about. Either way, the memories would be less than 100% accurate. If the penseive works like a video recorder, it would be a convenient way to find out from any person whether they are telling the truth about a given event without having to use a veritas potion. If it is a video recorder, then why couldn't the MoM use it with Harry to find out if Voldemort really returned or not? One more question... was Snape using Dumbledore's penseive or did he have one of his own? I can't imagine sharing such a personal item, though, can you? Karen From acoteucla at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 07:22:02 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:22:02 -0000 Subject: Final Battle In-Reply-To: <17a.1ec66a38.2c6999e1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > Final Battle > > If that is so, and assuming LV is > also an Animagi, (obviously a snake . . . a VERY LARGE venomous snake), > there should be a battle between them in this form in book 7. I am pretty sure that LV is NOT an animagus. If he were, he would have had no problem sneaking into the MoM to grab the prophecy. Instead, he possesses Nagini (who obviously CAN'T grab the prophecy) to scope out the place. From acoteucla at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 07:24:58 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:24:58 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > Joe asked: > > > I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about what James and > > Lily's occupations were. My favorite theory regarding this is that James was the DADA professor at Hogwarts. No idea about Lily - her wand was good for charms, wasn't it? Her work was probably related to this in some way.... Gringotts, perhaps? From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 07:38:13 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:38:13 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldren, real location? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76672 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > > > Geoff: > I seem to recall that in the film, the shooting location was Borough > > Market, further to the east. > > > > Geoff > > Sydney: > That was actually Leadenhall Market, if you're thinking of the pretty > frilly structure Harry and Hagrid walk through just before going into > the Leaky Cauldron in the first movie (I can't remember what the > exterior was in CoS though). It's right in the heart of the City, > about two minutes from Bank. A much more promising location than > Charing Cross, there isn't a really nice pub anywhere near there. I > assumed Rowling put the entrance to the magical world there, > symbolically speaking, because of all the bookshops. Charing Cross > is such a loud, modern street, but you can step into one of the > second-hand shops and be transported away by an old book! > > I did read somewhere that PoA was shooting the Leaky Cauldron scenes > around the Borough Market, which is quite a gritty location (the > fabulous gourmet food market aside) with a lot of grim brick railway > bridges crisscrossing it. > Just picked up on this post after my last reply. I think you're right. But if underscores my comments. Leadenhall Market is in the same basic area. It's about 10 minutes walk from London Bridge Station on the north side of the river, LB station being on the south bank, Again, the surroundings are commercial/financial and you don't get the shops/cinemas etc. described in the book. I have a strong suspicion (i'd have to chase this one up) that the Leaky Cauldron & Diagon Alley location filmwise are totally different. But again the book is quite vague in some ways. Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 07:43:24 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:43:24 -0000 Subject: Veritaserum question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76673 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > M: > Canon related question: What are the side effets of Veritaserum? > Does anyone recall the specifics mentioned in the books? > > Dan: > There are none that I can recall--according to canon, all it does is force the drinker to tell the truth. I'd imagine that there are, though, or that it is extremely expensive/difficult to make. > > -Dan, who wonders what would have happened if Harry had drunk one of Umbridge's Veritaserum-overloaded drinks > Geoff: Snape says that it takes a month to prepare. It is also revealed in OOTP that Umbridge was given "pretend" Veritaserum. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Aug 12 07:43:40 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:43:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: <6D837A9D.5DA7ACC3.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/11/2003 4:14:37 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Hickengruendler writes: > > > But there were 13 people on the table when Harry first ate with the OOTP (Harry, Ron, Hermione, Molly, Arthur, Fred, George, Ginny, Sirius, Lupin,Tonks, Mundungus Fletcher and Bill) and the first to rise was indeed Sirius. > > I love it. Okay. I'm going to start a list here of some main characters and perhaps we can fill in the list with various bits of canon that hint their deaths in future books (if you see hints about other characters, add them in!). I'll put the first one in that I find: > > Harry -- PS. Harry's first Potions class is filled with references to death (Snape begins to berate Harry right after saying his class can teach you to stopper death; two of the potions he asks Harry about that Harry can't identify are meant to prevent death) > > Ron > > Hermione > > Neville > > Dumbledore -- GoF. 13 people at table and Dumbledore is the first to rise, when Trelawney once stated that first to rise from a table of 13 will die. (Bohcoo's note) > > Mrs. Weasley > > Mr. Weasley > > Snape > > Lupin > > Hagrid > > Though she's not a main character: Hedwig -- Foreshadowing: "Just as he limped past the window, Hedwig soared through it with a soft rustle of wings like a small ghost." Of course you need a motive for killing her off: "In addition to every other miserable feeling, he now felt guilty that he'd been irritable with Hedwig; she was the only friend he had at number four, Privet Drive." As far as a method goes, I can only imagine another attack on her when delivering a crucial message... --Arcum From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 12 07:48:01 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:48:01 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Grey laundry References: Message-ID: <004901c360a6$0f73f0c0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76675 From: Wanda Sherratt --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > Or, as the description is again supposedly Harry's POV, he has the usual early teen male disregard for finer fashion detail and instead of describing Snape as in something like a silver or smoke grey silk nightshirt, we simply get a long grey nightshirt? > > I've not really considered Snape as the 'nice and soft and comfy' type. :) > > (I will now try to get rid of the image of a nice, soft and comfy Snape in a silk nightshirt.....) > Ah, but the underwear and nightshirt would be worn next to the skin, where Snape would know about them but nobody else would (unless they rudely flipped him upside-down). Maybe he has a sensuous streak to him that is hidden by his forbidding exterior. I think maybe I'll keep that nice image of a grey silk nightshirt... Wanda ---------------- Having read my thoughts on the idea of a silver grey silk nightshirt, my husband pointed out that silver is one of the Slytherine colours - a gift from a former pupil? Would look great with a dark green velvet robe.... Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 06:38:43 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:38:43 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76676 Catlady: > > But it occured to me that they could be in the same year at school > despite being ELEVEN MONTHS different in age, if the older brother > was born right after the cut-off date for Hogwarts. Ravenclaw Bookworm: > There are 2 boys in my son's class who are in exactly that > situation. Most people think they are twins. However, I think > something would have been said before now if that was the case with > Bill and Charlie. It hasn't been mentioned because it isn't possible. It's mentioned several times that Bill, Charlie, and Percy were all Head Boy in their respective last years at Hogwarts. If Bill and Charlie were in the same year, it would have been one or the other. ~Margaret From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 12 07:19:47 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:19:47 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > One the other hand, if I am to maintain my > faith in Harry and the principle he appears to stand for, there has to > be some kind of passive vanquishing of Voldemort, but I don't have a > clue what it could be. Somehow getting him to go through the death door perhaps... or making him get into the locked room that has the power (love?) that Harry possesses but V does not. Salit From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Aug 12 08:01:58 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:01:58 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: <004901c360a6$0f73f0c0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76678 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > > > From: Wanda Sherratt > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" > wrote: > > Or, as the description is again supposedly Harry's POV, he has the usual early teen male disregard for finer fashion detail and instead of describing Snape as in something like a silver or smoke grey silk nightshirt, we simply get a long grey nightshirt? > > > > I've not really considered Snape as the 'nice and soft and > comfy' type. :) > > > > (I will now try to get rid of the image of a nice, soft and > comfy Snape in a silk nightshirt.....) > > What about the slippers!? Those cold dungeon floors can play merry hell with your chilblains. Bunny slippers anyone? Okay. Honestly, I'm going to stop this. Right. Now. Really I am. June From koticzka at wp.pl Tue Aug 12 08:43:26 2003 From: koticzka at wp.pl (Koticzka) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:43:26 +0200 Subject: Nagini vs. Fawkes? Message-ID: <003801c360ad$d561f000$205863d9@ola> No: HPFGUIDX 76679 On the page http://parentingteens.about.com/library/sp/harry/blharryrumor-6-index.htm I found a rumour that Fawks may be Gryffindor-Animagus. So perhaps the final battle between good and Evil will be played by Fawkes-Gryffindor and Nagini who is Slytherin-Animagus? Perhaps there is an indication that Fawkes was reborn in July on Harry's year of birth? I have not found it - perhaps missed it? Koticzka "We, Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice we will always chose to save our own necks." http://rambambula.fm.interia.pl/chitchats.htm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 08:43:47 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:43:47 -0000 Subject: chocolate frog cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76680 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > I wonder why Harry isn't on a chocolate frog card? He's in many books, and > he's extremely famous. I think he would be on a chocolate frog card. > > Joj Probably because they hadn't got a picture of him when he came to Hogwarts. Also, it will be better if he is a little older.... A chocolate frog card with a sleeping baby on might not be so collectable! From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 08:53:19 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:53:19 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldren, real location? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Re the comment made by someone about Charing Cross Road, it is not > > exactly a short road. It makes an end-on connection with St.Martin's > > Lane just north of the National Gallery and ends at St.Giles Circus, > > the meeting point with Tottenham Court Road and New Oxford Street. > > > > I am prepared to hazard that it is meant to be on the north side. > > Most of the big shopping streets are on that side of the Thames - > > Oxford Street, Regent Street, Bond Street for example. If you go > > south of the river, you're tending to get into the administrative > > district - Whitehall, Parliament Square etc. The major shopping > > street here is Victoria Street. > > > > I seem to recall that in the film, the shooting location was Borough > > Market, further to the east bboy_mn: > I will always yield to superior knowledge but I have consulted several > maps, both on-line and off, and the only Charing Cross Road I can find > is about 1 kilometer long, and is on the eastern border of the Soho > neighborhood. > > > But then what do I know, I've never been there. > > By the way is it Char-ing Cross Rd. as in Charcoal, or is it a long > 'A', more like Chair-ing Cross Rd. On the other hand, it could be > Kar-ing Cross or Kare-ing Cross. I have an adavntage in that I lived in South London from 1949-94. 1 kilometre is not a short road in London terms. To me, a short road would be a couple of hundred yards and there are plenty of central London streets in that category. It's a matter of perception. Pronunciation. It's a short "a" ie Charring Cross would give you the best result. It's named after the one of the Eleanor crosses which stands in the forecourt of the main railway station. Geoff From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Tue Aug 12 09:39:19 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:39:19 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! (just correcting) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76682 Sorry for my meticulousness, Trish, but I didn't write that about Tolkien, Nemi did. (#76481) evangelina --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Trish" wrote: > > > evangelina839 at y... writes: > > > > > as I was saying, near as I can tell Tolkien's works are WORLD > > driven. The .... From sara1412au at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 09:48:55 2003 From: sara1412au at yahoo.com (Sara_ELL) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:48:55 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76683 Melpomene wrote: > Oh come on...maybe that nightshirt CAME grey. It is possible to >buy grey clothing you know. I don't have either book with me now >but wasn't a distiction made about the underwear--that it "greying" >to indicate it wasn't new/clean or however one chooses to read >that? The nightshirt was just...well grey. I agree with the other >post...what ELSE could JKR have written Snape in as far as >nightwear---ok a velvet smoking jacket perhaps but I just don't see it. Me: I didn't think that it was possible to find a theory that would be found over the top on a board where Rudolf the Red-nosed reindeer was discussed in relation to OoTP (such a post, and a very funny one at, does exist somewhere in the 7000 odd posts published in the last month and a half). For the record(extracting tongue from confines of cheek), I honestly, really, truely do not believe that the description of one Professor S. Snape's night-time attire in one paragraph of a five- book series is meant to provide us with any great insight into the story other than to demonstrate that this same said S.Snape is an 'older-fashioned' gent. It also probably reflects his estrangement from the world of muggles (no muggle-wear jammies for former Death Eaters, apparently). I shall extract the slur put on said professor's hygiene and state that for the record, I think that he is as frugal with his clothing as with his words and probably just gets the same two or three nightshirts washed by the house elves over and over again... which makes me wonder what he does with his wages (if he gets paid for teaching at all, come to think of it). **** Sara_ELL (in fuzzy bunny-slippers but, alas, no grey pjamas and in complete agreement with Melpomene about disturbing images of Snape and bikinis) From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 12 10:20:07 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:20:07 -0000 Subject: Pensieve question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76684 Karen wrote: > Do we know if the pensieve works more as a video recorder or as a personal recollection of events? In Snape's penseive, Harry saw Snape following James & Co. He was concerned that Snape wouldn't stay where he could see his father, but Snape stayed near them. It appeared as though Snape was deliberately staying in viewing/hearing range of the group in spite of the fact that Snape was a frequent target of their derision. Was Snape spying on them? Was he taunting them? Was he looking for a chance to show up James? It seems odd that he would be innocently hanging around so close by.> The Pensieve appears to offer the user an objective point of view from which to view events, otherwise Harry would not be able to see Snape or Dumbledore from an external viewpoint, nor move away from Snape at all. As a device, I feel it exists not really to create space for extra thoughts, as Dumbledore told Harry during his "talk down to the child" phase, but to help the user form mental links,ie "a connection I could have made without assistance, but never mind". I wonder if the Pensieve works similarly to Omnioculars, which allow time to be recorded and replayed, where the field of vision is slightly different from what the viewer already saw. I think that Harry's experience of being in Tom Riddle's head is slightly different, but then again he's still able to see an external Riddle, which can be no part of the actual memory, as none of us are able to watch our external selves at all times. I also don't find Snape being around the Marauders particularly odd, as it's made clear that the entire year have gone down beside the lake to relax after the exam, just as HRH and co do twenty-odd years later. Finally, I'm afraid that James really did behave like that, and that what we see in the Pensieve has to be an objective recording rather than biased subjective memory. Part of the central theme of OotP - Harry coming to learn that people aren't just simply "good" and "bad" - is lost if James turns out to be the bland heroic type after all. Apologies if some of my quotes aren't quite right- I'm convalescing canonlessly at my mum's. Kirstini, rather bewildered to come back to the list after a two-week absence and find that she only recognises six names in the last hundred-odd posts. Sheer volume of listees is amazing at the moment. "The External Riddle" probably wouldn't make a very good band name, but it sounds appropriate for a heavy-going tome of philosophy. I'm not sure that finding pretenious book titles is going to be as fun as the band-name game, however... From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 12 10:41:18 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:41:18 -0000 Subject: Snape, Dumbledore and Lupin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76685 Aam wrote: > Hi everybody, here is a new poster who was just asking himself about Dumbledore's lack of reaction concerning the fact that Snape informed (as Lupin himself states it at the end of PoA) the students' parents of his "werewolfsness" ; something that, as a consequence, led to the latter's getting fired and prevented him from hoping for another job. That surely means (as we have begun to aknowledge it in GoF and OoP) that Dumbledore relies heavily on Snape but at the same time he refuses to give him the job of professor of defense against the dark arts however skilled and well-suited for that job he may seem. There must be something about Snape and Dumbledore that we don't know yet. What do you think that might be ?> Hi Aam. Try searching back through all the TBay MAGIC DISHWASHER posts for some interesting theorising on this point (just type "TBay" into the search archive facility, and click on "Previous" for a rather long time.) You might also want to try "Fantastic Posts and Where to Find Them". It's very possible that, among all the other reasons Snape had for coming to the good side, he owes Dumbledore a life debt. Think of the finality of DD's Pensieve statement professing (pardon the pun) his trust in Snape. There must be other reasons for Snape's about face, as we have seen that a life-debt does not a double agent make (young master Pettigrew, for example). I think that the generally received wisdom on list is that the DADA job would be too big a temptation for Snape to unleash his sadistic streak/dark side. Possibly something even more potent, as DD hasn't shied from hiring crap and absolutely unsuitable DADA teachers before. Not that I'm implying that Severus is a crap teacher. Oh Lordy, another barrage of abuse from the Snapeologists... Leave me alone! I'm ill! Kirstini From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 11:42:20 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:42:20 -0000 Subject: name of Salazar In-Reply-To: <200308112019.15155.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > Catlady: (snip) ZAR means old, and SALA is Palace, so te meaning is "The old Palace"." (snip) > From http://www.buber.net/Basque/Surname/S/salazar.htm (snip) > Translation: The origin from the linage: two brothers from Normandis arrived > at Santona, the older settled in Salazar, Castilla la vieja (Burgos), the > younger in El Tobar (Burgos) > > I don't know how the author concludes from this that Salazar is a basque name. > It seems to be from Burgos, Castilla the Old. > > I've found another page that cites dates, here > http://www.geocities.com/salazarisaias/ (snip) > > Translated: Salazar is a toponimic with sephardite-castillian origin, from the > valley of the same name, in Burgos, in Comunity of Castilla and Leon. Founder > was Galindo de S, first lord of the valley. One of his sons was Mart?n > Galindo de S, second lord of S in 884. > > And here is more information, from > http://www.sephardim.com/namelist.shtml? mode=form&from=S&to=S&Search=Search > > [[ > Salazar(1)(2)(3)(6c)(9)(14)(29) > (~): upload completed > (1) From the civil records of Amsterdam, The Netherlands.(~) > (2) From the records of Bevis Marks, The Spanish and Portuguese Congregation > of London.(~) > (3) From the burial register of Bethahaim Velho Cemetery, Published by the > Jewish Historical Society of England.(~) > (6c) Reports the names of people who appeared before the inquisition in El > Peru.(~) > (9) From the book, "Precious Stones of the Jews of Curacao Jewry 1657-1957.(~) > (14) From the publication, "Los Sefardes", by Jose M. Estrugo. Published by > Editorial Lex La Habana, 1958. (Apellidos corrientes entre los Sephardies)(~) > (29) "Sangre Judia" ("Jewish Blood") by Pere Bonnin. A list of 3,500 Jewish > names as created and defined by the Holy Office (la Santo Oficio) of Spain. > The list is a result of a census of Jewish communities of Spain by the > Catholic Church. All the names listed here are those of Jewish origin. > ]] > > Don't seems basque. > > silmariel >From CW: Silmariel, this is quite fascinating. Are you saying that Salazar is actually an ancient Jewish name ? Given the whole good v.evil theme of the series, Harry as potential saviour/but as yet unknown, possible family relationship with Voldemort, descendent of Slytherin etc, the twists to the end confrontation are very complex to contemplate. Harry as modern saviour of the Jewish race ? Oh lordy... but maybe I have not quite understood your post, is this what you mean? From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 12:19:41 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:19:41 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: Also, notice in the latest book, now that Harry knows he must > ultimately kill Voldemort or be kill by him, and even though he is > well aware of how evil the Dark Lord is, and even knowing that he will > probably have to kill Voldemort in the defense of his own life, Harry > still calls it murder. He will have to murder or be murdered. > > I think that is a very special insight into Harry's conscience too, > and I think it should make us realize just what a horrible burden this > Prophecy is. > I would prefer to think that Harry will vanquish and destroy > Voldemort, not with a show of force, but with an unexpected act of > mercy. The trouble is, I just don't know how JKR could ever maneuver > Voldemort into a state of mind where that act of mercy would have that > enormous impact on him. One the other hand, if I am to maintain my > faith in Harry and the principle he appears to stand for, there has to > be some kind of passive vanquishing of Voldemort, but I don't have a > clue what it could be. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_Mn Laura: At Nimbus, someone suggested that the way Harry will defeat LV will be with the weapon LV can never use: love (in the manner of Meg in "Wrinkle in Time"). I found this to be a very powerful theory and I hope it's borne out. Having said that, however, I'd like to point out that killing in self-defense (or in defense of others) is not an immoral act in many religious traditions. If you honor life as God's greatest gift, then allowing someone to take it away from you without defending yourself shows a failure to understand the value of that gift. I don't mean to get overly theological here; I'm just saying that it would be nice if someone sat Harry down and explained the difference between killing and murder. Of course, even a justified killing is something to be avoided if at all possible. Harry would certainly take it very hard if he had to kill anyone, even with the best of reasons. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 12:27:21 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:27:21 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote:> > When I first read the infamous "underwear scene", all I could think > was "please God, let him NOT be wearing those hideous euro-trash > bikini underpants!" I prefer to think of Snape as a boxer man. One > can only hope that the traumatic humiliation he received at the hands > of the Marauders at least motivated him to ditch those manky grey > drawers in favor of something a bit...cleaner. > > As for the nightshirt, I always pictured it as being similar to this > awful thing I was given to wear when I was staying in East Berlin. > (Back when it was still part of the Evil Empire.) It was distinctly > greying, with one sleeve slightly shorter than the other. It had > clearly never come into contact with anything remotely resembling > fabric softener and though it was clean, it smelled very > institutional. In other words, right up Snape's alley. > > I think I'll go put on some Barry White records and dream about Snape > and his Stalinist lingerie. I'll contact a mental health facility in > the morning. > > Allyson Laura: Okay, I think we can agree that gray can be a fashion statement, but graying is a fashion faux pas...;-) But then, Snape wouldn't exactly be the type to subscribe to GQ, would he? Lucius and Draco, on the other hand...I bet their house-elves (whoever they may be at this point) have to learn to give manicures and facials. *grins* From happybluebirdie at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 12:28:54 2003 From: happybluebirdie at yahoo.com (Lisa G) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 05:28:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812122854.20919.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76689 Egad 250 emails this morning, I don't know if I can keep up! Skimming quickly now.... --- junediamanti wrote: > What about the slippers!? Those cold dungeon floors can play > merry > hell with your chilblains. > > Bunny slippers anyone? > > Okay. Honestly, I'm going to stop this. Right. Now. > > Really I am. > > June Oh come now, we all know that Snape is just a closet lush. He's got posters of Liza and Babs papering the walls, and when nobody is around he sings glorious renditions of 'I Feel Pretty' whilst twirling about the floor with a lavish black satin and velvet robe, topped off with a stunning pink feather boa. The oppressive motherings of the Mary Poppins-esque nanny we all just /know/ he had (back in the days when he wore little velvet suits, patent leather shoes, knee socks and had curls to his sholders) surely left some sort of demented mark. For the record, I think bunny slippers are perfectly acceptable, so long as the little bunnies are grey and have tiny little vampiric teeth. Lisa G __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Tue Aug 12 12:38:02 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:38:02 -0000 Subject: Retrospective Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76690 While going through PS/SS the other day, I noticed something that hadn't caught my eye in the many, many readings I've done of the first book. Chapter 16 (Through the Trapdoor) starts with "In years to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting through the door at any moment." I can recall Harry being many things throughout the series - but not retrospective. For one thing, he's too young for much of that. Very few teens are retrospective. Is this line an indication that Harry will live for quite some time? That is to say, he won't die or sacrifice himself within the first 7 books - or am I reading too much into this sentence? Any thoughts? Tcy From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 12:57:12 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 12:57:12 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76691 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > It hasn't been mentioned because it isn't possible. It's mentioned > several times that Bill, Charlie, and Percy were all Head Boy in > their respective last years at Hogwarts. If Bill and Charlie were in > the same year, it would have been one or the other. > Not so. They were all prefect, but Charlie wasn't Headboy. Didn't Molly say "Second Headboy in the family" when Percy made it? You're right though that Bill and Charlie couldn't both be made prefect the same year since there appears to be only one boy and one girl chose from the fifth years of each house. I never thought they were in the same year anyway though. bibphile From tracie622 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 13:28:49 2003 From: tracie622 at yahoo.com (Tracie) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:28:49 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" > wrote: > > Joe asked: > > > > > I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about what James and > > > Lily's occupations were. > > My favorite theory regarding this is that James was the DADA > professor at Hogwarts. > > No idea about Lily - her wand was good for charms, wasn't it? Her > work was probably related to this in some way.... Gringotts, perhaps? I always thought that James was an Auror for some reason. I know it was never stated anywhere, and as far as I know JKR has never said what James and Lily did, we only know that they were in the Order. But for some reason, I picture him as an Auror. He always hated the dark arts. I suppose he could have been the DADA teacher as well. Also, we dont' know what Sirius did either, before the murders and his sentence in Azkaban. My guess...he was an Auror too. They were both exceptional with magical abilities...the best at Hogwarts when they were students. And Aurors have to be expectional. So, that's my guess :-) Tracie...who likes the idea of Harry becoming an Auror too and taking after Dad (I know, sentimental...that's me tho ) From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 13:30:09 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:30:09 -0000 Subject: Pensieve question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen" wrote: > Do we know if the pensieve works more as a video recorder or as a > personal recollection of events? In Snape's penseive, Harry saw > Snape following James & Co. He was concerned that Snape wouldn't > stay where he could see his father, but Snape stayed near them. It > appeared as though Snape was deliberately staying in viewing/hearing > range of the group I don't think Snape was within earshot of them. "Harry managed to keep Snape in sight while straining his ears to catch the voices of James and his friends." (US pp. 643) I sounds like Harry was considerably closer to James than Snape and Harry could barely keep Snape in sight and hear James at the same time. There's no way (except magic, which we have no reason to suspect) that Snape can hear James. He was within sight of them, but he was so absorbed in his exam paper that I don't even know if he was aware of their presence until they called out his "name." Karen: > If the penseive records memories from the user's perspective, can > those memories be trusted as fact, or are they tainted by the user's > own feelings? I don't think it does. If we were limited to what Snape couls see and hear, we wouldn't know James was doodling "L.E." on his paper. James was three aisle over from Snape. Snape certainly wasn't looking on his paper. Karen: > If the penseive works like a video recorder, it would be a > convenient way to find out from any person whether they are telling the truth about a given event without having to use a veritas potion. If it is a video recorder, then why couldn't the MoM use it with Harry to find out if Voldemort really returned or not? > They don't want the truth. They want comfortable lies. bibphile From chitrasahai at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 13:38:18 2003 From: chitrasahai at yahoo.com (hermys_quill) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:38:18 -0000 Subject: Who is Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76694 Lots of discussion happened about who actually Snape is? Most of the people believe in half human concept(Vampire or something else). I also guess almost the same thing. If you read Chapter Occlumency in OOTP, Snape and Sirius had a hot argument and Sirius said something like- Dumbledore thinks you are reformed but I do not. then Snape said why do you not tell him, would he believe on someone like you - I do not have the book right now. What could the word "reformed" indicate? Any ideas? -Hermys_Quill From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 14:11:11 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:11:11 -0000 Subject: Wizards, physics masters? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76695 bboy mn had an interesting concept and it picked my inmagination and interest. He stated that we non magic muggles would not resolve the understanding or knowledge of the physical world, as wizards and witchs have, for many years. So as my inmagination ran wild, I came up with these physic traits that could be applied to magic situations. First, the time turner, is a worm hole generator able of punching small holes in the space time continueum so people and objects can pass through time. Instead of elaborate magnetic fields, and electronics to control your travel, the wizard or witch uses their magical influence over the surrounding world to achieve this (they receive their magic abilities through a more intimate relationship and understanding with the earth and surrounding planets). Apparate / disapparate is achieved by manipulating the quantum foam we all possess. Quantum foam is the space between the atoms that make up everthing physical, earth, air, water, etc. You actually only use 1/3 of the space you occupy, you get the idea. If you could break that bond in the quantum foam then you could reassemble almost instantly somewhere else, since atoms can achieve near light speed velocity with very little energy expence. This also applies the the evanesco charm of dissapearing the contents of cauldrens and also the scowerfy (SP?) charm of magically cleaning your cloths or yourself, the reassembly part has just been left out. Accio is accomplished by communicating or rather extending your reach through the atoms that surround you completely at any given moment. Bringing you whatever you called for. the leviosa charm could also be accomplished through this principal. What do you think? Is this a feasible explanation of why the magical are able to do what they do scientifically speaking? They are endowed with a gene or protein strand that enables them to interact on a much closer relationship with the very atoms that make everything? Just letting my inmagination run wild. Severus "don't tell people I care" Snape "it would ruin my image" From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Aug 12 14:12:49 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:12:49 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter names - tribute to Roald Dahl? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76696 My kids were watching the movie of 'James and the Giant Peach' this morning, and I was struck by the name of the main character: James Henry Trotter. Could "James and Harry Potter" possibly have been named in tribute to Dahl? I've always thought of Harry's muggle life as something straight out of one of Dahl's blackly comic novels. His Christmas presents from the Dursleys - a toothpick one year, and a tissue another - could have come straight out of "James and the Giant Peach", where the poor little boy has to do all the work and his vile aunts give him a boiled fish head for supper. As a result, I could never get into the sombre discussions about the sort of psychological effect Harry's upbringing would have on him, or if he's suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome. His life is just too farcical in its blackness. Yes, yes, I know that things that bad and worse happen in real life, but this isn't real life. It isn't even just a novel; it's a fairy-tale novel (or it was, in the earlier books) and I feel sure that Rowling meant her description of the Dursleys to be a black comedy, not a serious expose about the things that go on behind the doors of neat suburban houses. Wanda From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 12 14:36:48 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:36:48 +0100 Subject: BANG! You're dead! Message-ID: <67A3B8D0-CCD2-11D7-B827-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76697 Deaths in the series so far, 5 (not counting an unknown number of Giants). Plenty pre- PS, but in the five books published, that's depressingly few; one would have expected more than that in the MoM battle alone. Anyone else feel cheated? This despite JKRs assertion that "...you must be brutal." In the tradition of such epics, all the deaths are on the wrong side. Cedric, an innocent Sirius, a plot device Crouch Snr, misguided but anti-Voldemort Quirrell, possessed Bode, under an Imperius curse from Malfoy, then deranged by a security device, then attacked by a refugee from the herbaceous border. Not lucky, that man. The baddies have escaped unscathed, hopefully to receive their just desserts in the final resolution. It's interesting that in the posts from those with a morbid taste, the predicted deaths are also of goodies; DD, Harry, Ron, Hermione, etc. Why? There is even a large faction that seem to think that Voldy will be defeated but not killed. Again, why? Being an evil minded sadist, I raise my standard to the cause of blood-boltered mayhem, cathartic come-uppance and satisfying slaughter. Away with this namby-pamby redemption through the power of love! Can you think of anything more Mills and Boon? More adolescent fantasy? Ugh! All you need is love? Rubbish. In the words of the song, "If Lennon had packed a .44, The eighties wouldn't have been such a bore" Projecting loving thoughts at a murderous psychopath does not stop him reaching for the meat-axe. Expounding tolerance to bigots just enrages them. Those that preach that violence never solves anything should read some history. The meek shall inherit the Earth, yes, but only after everybody else has finished with it. Love *creates* problems and dilemmas. (Here I bare my arm and show my scars. Count the grey hairs! I didn't get these from enemies, but from loved ones!) This is supposed to be a war, for Heavens sake! Even (especially!) in a fictional war the casualties mount, friends grieve, then they stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, and zap the bastards! In the first war against Voldemort, Crouch authorised Aurors to kill if necessary. This seems a reasonable response to the threat posed at the time. Notice that canon does not mention any dissent; it was considered unfortunate but realistic. Umbrage, in her own eyes striving for the common good, seems to think a Cruciatus curse is justified occasionally. Harry tries one against Bella (ignore Bellas' taunt that you have to enjoy inflicting pain for it to work. When did Harry *ever* get a wand spell to work properly the first time he tried it?) This is an encouraging trend, hopefully heading towards a raised body count. True, DD uses non-lethal spells in the Ministry, but who else is as powerful a wizard as he? Sure DEs can be captured, but keeping them secure when AK-toting friends are available to get them out is not likely. Unless DD does all the fighting, and keeps personal guard over them, the DEs are going to win by default. No, now that Azkaban is no longer secure, now that the Dementors have joined Voldy, I think we can gleefully rub our hands and anticipate obituaries in the Daily Prophet. So cheer up, friends! The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse may yet emerge from the Dark Forest. And to those who raise their hands in horror and claim the moral high ground for peace-lovers, remember that the Commandment "Thou shalt not kill" is a mis-translation; in the original it read "Thou shalt not murder." Kneasy (with a gleeful cackle) From gromm at cards.lanck.net Tue Aug 12 14:58:48 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:58:48 +0400 Subject: OT:Re: Sirius, Voldemort and Firenze pronunciations References: <20030805223910.71300.qmail@web20511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000801c360e2$3d8f9040$3d42983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 76698 A Featheringstonehaugh wrote > The "T" wouldn't be missing from Tom's name anagram simply because it isn't pronounced. Many words contain silent letters, but to be spelled correctly, they must be included. Just look at my name.....! Maria: Is it spelled something like Fanshaw? Maria. From joym999 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 15:02:41 2003 From: joym999 at aol.com (joywitch_m_curmudgeon) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:02:41 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter names - tribute to Roald Dahl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > My kids were watching the movie of 'James and the Giant Peach' this > morning, and I was struck by the name of the main character: James > Henry Trotter. Could "James and Harry Potter" possibly have been > named in tribute to Dahl? The Roald Dahl influence has been discussed here before. (You could try using Yahoo's horrible search engine to find other posts.) I've always thought that the Dursleys were a clear Roald Dahl tribute -- they are virtually identical to the parents in Dahl's Matilda. As for the similarity between the names Trotter and Potter, that may be a (conscious or not) nod in Dahl's direction, but you have to consider that JKR has said that Potter was the last name of a close childhood friend. But there's no question that HP has a number of literary references, influences and tributes, many of which have been noticed by clever HPfGUers. --Joywitch From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 15:09:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:09:25 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars, Murderers, & Deaths Door. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > One the other hand, if I am to maintain my faith in Harry and the > > principle he appears to stand for, there has to be some kind of > > passive vanquishing of Voldemort, but I don't have a clue what it > > could be. > > Somehow getting him to go through the death door perhaps... or > making him get into the locked room that has the power (love?) > that Harry possesses but V does not. > > Salit bboy_mn: Funny you should mention the Death's Door (actually Death's Archway). I've had this vision of the end of the book or at least the end of Voldemort. Voldemort has been captured with the help of Harry, because of the heinous nature of Voldemort's crimes, he has been sentenced to death; a penalty that is rarely given in the modern wizard world. So they take Voldemort to the Death Room, which I believe is a room that is used to carry out the death penalty, they read the final judgement of the Wizengamot, and before witnesses he is told he must die. They give him the option of voluntarily walking through the Veil, or being forced through by the executioner. Voldemort while showing a great deal of fear, still tries to bluff his way through with his evil overlord persona. He says he will go on his own. He walks toward the Veil, as he gets closer, he becomes more and more fearful until he collapes in a quivering, whining, pathetically wailing mass of dispare and regret. Harry takes pity on him and mounts the dais, grabs Voldemort arm and pulls him to his feet. He repeats Dumbledore's great line that death is not to be feared, it's just the next great adventure. Then in a nearly divine gesture of compassion, Harry offers to escort Voldemort through the Veil. As a stunned Voldemort stares into Harry bright green eyes, Harry lends Voldemort beyond the veil. Now one of two things happen, either Harry steps into the brilliant white light behind the Veil and meets his mother, father, and Sirius. He hugs them, they comfort him, then they tell him it's not his time, he must go back. At first Harry wants to stay; behind the veil he has everyone he has ever longed for and loved. But in the end, they persuade him to return to the realm of the living. Alternate: They hear Harry speak from beyond the Veil, and someone pulls the Veil back to reveal Harry standing with his whole family including Sirius. He makes a long tender heartwarming farewell speech, the Veil closes, and Harry is no more. Although, escorting or forcing Voldemort into the Room of Love and Compassion might work just as well. Voldemort enters and has a spiritual revelation, see the error of his way, and comes out transformed back into Tom Riddle. Sadly, this new man with a new sense of love and compassion is doomed to spending his remaining days on earth confined to Azkaban. A tragic ending for a tragic life. I'm not saying that I think any of these things WILL happen, I'm just telling you the vision that has been haunting me for the last week or two. A vision and nothing more, though, pehaps, a prophetic vision. bboy_mn From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 15:11:00 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:11:00 -0000 Subject: Retrospective Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tcyhunt" wrote: > While going through PS/SS the other day, I noticed something that > hadn't caught my eye in the many, many readings I've done of the > first book. Chapter 16 (Through the Trapdoor) starts with "In years > to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get > through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting > through the door at any moment." > > I can recall Harry being many things throughout the series - but not > retrospective. For one thing, he's too young for much of that. Very > few teens are retrospective. Is this line an indication that Harry > will live for quite some time? That is to say, he won't die or > sacrifice himself within the first 7 books - or am I reading too much > into this sentence? > > Any thoughts? > > Tcy That is interesting - is this just a narrative slip-up by JKR - because it is a common phrase and easy just to throw in without thinking, or is it a hint? And how many 'years' does it have to be, to be 'in years to come@? That does sound rather a few years, rather than just a couple. Interesting - though, JKR does deviate from her usual narrative style again in PS/SS, when she shows Harry's first quidditch match from Hermione/Ron'Hagrid's perspective - something that's never done again. So maybe it was just a first book style-thing - or maybe it is a huge clue... Ffi From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 12 15:17:30 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:17:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: name of Salazar In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308121717.30387.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76702 > From CW: > Silmariel, this is quite fascinating. Are you saying that Salazar is > actually an ancient Jewish name ? Given the whole good v.evil theme > of the series, Harry as potential saviour/but as yet unknown, > possible family relationship with Voldemort, descendent of Slytherin > etc, the twists to the end confrontation are very complex to > contemplate. Harry as modern saviour of the Jewish race ? Oh lordy... > but maybe I have not quite understood your post, is this what you > mean? This needs clarification. I've tried to find where the thread started but I can't, I recall an ff author asked if Slytherin could've fly from Spain to Britain near Moorish invasion, and if Salazar was a Basque name. My reply to this is contained in post number 76473, Catlady's response. I checked up the sources cited and posted number 76571, then reread and researched a little more, which brings up post number 76558. The funny thing is I didn't try to link Salazar and Jews, it popped out while searching for "salazar heraldica" in Google, I was just trying to disprove Salazar being a Basque word. www.sephardim.com was interesting, because they show the references for each name, and seems pretty conclusive. It is a mixed Spanish/English page, so anyone can check it. Salazar seems to have a Jew name, but, as by 844 there was already a lord of Salazar in the Christian side, he could have pretended to be Catholic. Anyway is his name, not his surname, so it doesn't link him forcefully to Salazar line. I think the author was just speculating about how could SS have lived in the Peninsula Iberica about 650-1000 period, just previous of Howgarts. Moorish invasion started 711 and lasted about a century, then reconquer started. He could find refuge with Jews, later with Christians, and with this name, with Moorish also. but I'd advise him to change Slytherin to something with a lower profile, unless he acts as a magician, er, astrologer. Curious enough, while witches were commonly disposed off, magicians were more likely to gave advice to kings and caliphas. Here is a link to a map, period 850-950: http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~rs143/spain.jpg I hope I have cleared it up. silmariel From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 12 15:40:38 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:40:38 -0000 Subject: Retrospective Harry? (slips in writing style...clues?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76703 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ffimiles" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tcyhunt" wrote: > > While going through PS/SS the other day, I noticed something that > > hadn't caught my eye in the many, many readings I've done of the > > first book. Chapter 16 (Through the Trapdoor) starts with "In > years > > to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get > > through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting > > through the door at any moment." > > > > I can recall Harry being many things throughout the series - but > not > > retrospective. For one thing, he's too young for much of that. > Very > > few teens are retrospective. Is this line an indication that Harry > > will live for quite some time? That is to say, he won't die or > > sacrifice himself within the first 7 books - or am I reading too > much > > into this sentence? > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > Tcy > That is interesting - is this just a narrative slip-up by JKR - > because it is a common phrase and easy just to throw in without > thinking, or is it a hint? And how many 'years' does it have to be, > to be 'in years to come@? That does sound rather a few years, rather > than just a couple. > > Interesting - though, JKR does deviate from her usual narrative style > again in PS/SS, when she shows Harry's first quidditch match from > Hermione/Ron'Hagrid's perspective - something that's never done > again. So maybe it was just a first book style-thing - or maybe it > is a huge clue... > Ffi Me: Also what about the first chapter of GoF 'The Riddle House'? It's all from Frank Bryce and Voldemorts point of view when everything else, up to that point and after it, has been only what we see through Harry's eyes? I always thought that was odd and very exciting when I read it. It gives me hope that we may learn more deeply about other characters, in particular the somewhat flat and two-dimensional Malfoys. If we continue to only see Draco (and Lucius) through Harry's POV we will never learn what is really going on inside their heads and as a result they will always be seen in such a narrow perspective. I know there is much more to Draco that what we've been so far allowed to see, but if Rowling continues in the present style we will only get to see more of Draco if he and Harry are forced to deal with each other. Mandy From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 12 15:56:42 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:56:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: <67A3B8D0-CCD2-11D7-B827-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: <20030812155642.66258.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76704 --- B Arrowsmith wrote: --------------------------------- Deaths in the series so far, 5 (not counting an unknown number of Giants).[...] All you need is love? Rubbish. Projecting loving thoughts at a murderous psychopath does not stop him reaching for the meat-axe. [...] Kneasy Hans in Holland replies: Thanks for this provocative post. I feel provoked. I agree with you under normal conditions and I can see your point of view. If HP were an ordinary novel you'd be quite right, but I'm sticking to my theory that HP is not a fictional story but an allegory on how to go the Path of Liberation. No, I agree, loving thoughts sent by an unliberated person wouldn't stop a murderous psychopath. But things are totally different when one is liberated. In his fifth year Harry has liberated his mental ego. Voldemort can no longer possess Harry's mind because of the love in his heart. In his sixth year Harry will liberate his emotional ego, situated in the heart, obviously. My theory (and it really is only a theory) is that this means that Harry will be able to open his heart to Divine Love totally. It will become a powerful magic force that he can consciously use. I don't know exactly how JK Rowling will turn this into a story, but if the coincidences with the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosencreutz continue, it probably means that Harry will be able to open the Room of Love and, to put in into the AW terms, "behold Lady Venus". Harry will gain mastery over "a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature." In other words, Harry will be able to expel Voldemort not only from himself, but also from others, including his enemies. The power of his love will be so intense that it can radiate far outside of himself. I want to provide some evidence of this force. I found an article written in a magazine published in the Netherlands in 1946. ("Nieuwe Religieuze Orientering") It was written by a person whom I suspect is quite advanced on the road of liberation. The name of the article is, "Love your Enemies" (a quote from the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament for those who don't know). I would like to provide you with a translation which, to my mind, proves my theory. "...In February 1941 I was seated opposite an ober-oberfhrer of the Gestapo. I had been arrested! (The author had written an article a warning against NAZISM - Hans) He had a handsome, regular face, light blue eyes. The photos of his wife and children stood on his desk. He was an absolutely normal person. There was nothing evil, nothing bestial about him. He looked at me and I looked back at him. We smiled at each other. For a moment we saw the tragic humour of the situationand then, suddenly, it came. His eyes became fixed and the pupils widened. He was being overshadowed. His throat was being controlled. This can always be discerned by an unnecessary rising and falling of the voice and a total change in sound. His head was bent slightly forward as if he were being gripped in the neck. I understood. This man was being possessed. He himself was pushed into the background and what was talking to me was the spirit in the background: the roaring black beast. I shoved aside my resistance and the reason why I was there, and I was filled with an intense compassion for this Mr ober-ober thingy. While a torrent of abuse and vituperation were being poured out over me, I prayed for this peculiar enemy and wrapped him in the light of the Rosycross. And his possession left him. He shook himself like a wet poodle. My strange enemy returned to normal and became himself again. I had seen and heard my enemy. I had resisted and defeated my enemy; I had driven him away. But my enemy was not the ober-fhrer. It was someone else. This German man was just a victim because of the special quality of German blood. He was hereditarily burdened, a sick man. Did you know that Hitler was possessed?..." The author states further on that he was never again contacted by the Gestapo. This to me proves that Liberation above all liberates one from hatred, fear and ignorance. JK Rowling has said that she doesn't believe in ordinary magic, but she does believe in the magic of love. That really is the understatement of the century. This is not a question of "Away with this namby-pamby redemption through the power of love! Can you think of anything more Mills and Boon? More adolescent fantasy? Ugh!" to quote Kneasy, but the undeniable reality of Love as a magic force more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. And I add: than hatred, than the greatest evil. And this is the inheritance promised to us if we succeed in going the Path of Liberation! Hans in Holland ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 16:02:36 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:02:36 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > I would prefer to think that Harry will vanquish and destroy > Voldemort, not with a show of force, but with an unexpected act of > mercy. The trouble is, I just don't know how JKR could ever maneuver > Voldemort into a state of mind where that act of mercy would have that > enormous impact on him. One the other hand, if I am to maintain my > faith in Harry and the principle he appears to stand for, there has to > be some kind of passive vanquishing of Voldemort, but I don't have a > clue what it could be. Something like V/TR's falling into the Shrinking Solution and becoming a cute helpless baby Harry wouldn't want to kill... not necessarily that scenario exactly, but any of the replies to this thread seems possible... A.J. From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 16:47:42 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:47:42 -0000 Subject: Final Battle In-Reply-To: <17a.1ec66a38.2c6999e1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76706 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: Pook: As in each book, Harry has been close to death and risen again and again. I feel the same will be here. As to how, I'm not sure. Possibly the Philosopher's Stone was not completely destroyed as Dumbledore claimed and Harry is brought back to life with that. Me: The stone is used to prolong life - not for healing. Phoenix tears are useful for healing. In CoS Fawkes cries over Harry bringing him back from the brink of death. In SS/PS Dumbledore says something to the effect that he got there just in time; in other words, he could save him as long as he wasn't actually dead. In PoA and GoF Harry was at risk of death, but was never actually close to death. In neither case did Harry end up spending the end of term in the Hospital wing. In OoP, Everyone else is hurt, but Harry doesn't really suffer much physical damage. Melinda From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 16:58:48 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:58:48 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry In-Reply-To: <20030812122854.20919.qmail@web40207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76707 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lisa G wrote: > > Oh come now, we all know that Snape is just a closet lush. He's > got posters of Liza and Babs papering the walls, and when nobody > is around he sings glorious renditions of 'I Feel Pretty' whilst > twirling about the floor with a lavish black satin and velvet > robe, topped off with a stunning pink feather boa. The > oppressive motherings of the Mary Poppins-esque nanny we all > just /know/ he had (back in the days when he wore little velvet > suits, patent leather shoes, knee socks and had curls to his > sholders) surely left some sort of demented mark. > Ten points for bringing Frauline Maria back into Snape's past! *She* wouldn't put with greying linens. And she *certainly* wouldn't approve of "euro-trash" bikinis. Not even if they were made out of the nursery curtains! Personally, I'm having a wonderful time conjuring up images of Snape in various undie incarnations. Back before my last HD crash I had a great pic somone had put together of him in longjohns. And scuffy slippers. Melpomene--off in search of that pic. Hoping she *doesn't* find the one by the same "artist" of Snape in a tutu. Hoping that the artist does not stumble upon this bikini convo. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 12 17:07:24 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:07:24 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter names - tribute to Roald Dahl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > His (Harry's)life is just too farcical in its blackness. Yes, yes, I know that things that bad and worse happen in real life, but this isn't real life. It isn't even just a novel; it's a fairy- tale novel (or it was, in the earlier books) and I feel sure that Rowling meant her description of the Dursleys to be a black comedy, not a serious expose about the things that go on behind the doors of neat suburban houses. Thank you for helping me solve a mystery about why I didn't like OOTP as much as the other books--those magical, fairy-tale qualities JKR sprinkled throughout the rest of the series seemed absent. I so enjoyed that each book brought something magical to life, from our entrance to the WW, to learning about basics such as choosing a wand, exploring magical creatures, learning about spells, animagus, Qudditch Cup, etc. along with Harry. OOTP feels bleak to me, that's the best word I can think of. From the dark House of Black, to Umbridge, to the basement of the MOM and Sirius's death, the story took a turn down a different road. That's not to say it isn't an equally important story, or that what happened in OOTP isn't crucial to the big picture, I just missed the quirky daily events that are so part of Harry's magical world. Ariadne From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 17:11:10 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:11:10 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Also, notice in the latest book, now that Harry knows he must > ultimately kill Voldemort or be kill by him, and even though he is > well aware of how evil the Dark Lord is, and even knowing that he will probably have to kill Voldemort in the defense of his own life, Harry still calls it murder. He will have to murder or be murdered. > These were just a couple of little clues that gave me an insight into Harry's character. > > I would prefer to think that Harry will vanquish and destroy > Voldemort, not with a show of force, but with an unexpected act of > mercy. The trouble is, I just don't know how JKR could ever maneuver Voldemort into a state of mind where that act of mercy would have that enormous impact on him. > bboy_Mn Laura also said: If you honor life as God's greatest gift, then allowing someone to take it away from you without defending yourself shows a failure to understand the value of that gift. I agree with bboy that Harry is going to agonize over what he has to do. We have alread seen some of it in Harry's attitude at the end of OoP. I like the idea of defeating by mercy and hope JKR will do some more of *her* magic to make it happen. Laura makes a good point. However, just because Harry values the gift God gave him, he would probably have a very difficult time dealing with the taking of the gift God gave to another, even if it was to save his life or the lives of others. Ravenclaw Bookworm From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 12 17:12:56 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:12:56 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: <67A3B8D0-CCD2-11D7-B827-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Deaths in the series so far, 5 (not counting an unknown number of > Giants). > > Cedric, an innocent > Sirius, a plot device > Crouch Snr, misguided but anti-Voldemort > Quirrell, possessed > Bode, under an Imperius curse from Malfoy, then deranged by a security device, then attacked by a refugee from the herbaceous border. Not lucky, that man. > Ariadne: Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce, too, so 7 in all. From lziner at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 17:24:21 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:24:21 -0000 Subject: Oh Rats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76711 Did anyone notice how often dead rats are mentioned in connection with Sirius? He eats them in GoF and feeds them to buckbeak in OOtP. A vicarious way of murdering Peter - perhaps? Just a thought- missing snuffles. Lz From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 09:40:07 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:40:07 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini (Slytherin boy) theory based on his first name. Another theoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76712 > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "neith_seshat" > > > wrote: > > > > The theory: Blaise is the name of Merlin's tutor, who helped > him > > > to become the wizard he was, instead of an evil devilish wizard. > > > > I would imagine that Zabini is a boy (as per the thread title). > Blaise was not only Merlin's tutor but also the first name of the > notable mathematician Blaise Pascal.... > > Geoff Pardon me, if my memory of the Arthurian legend is a bit off, but wasn't the name of Merlin's tutor Galapas? See "The Hollow Hills" by Mary Stewart. Donna From redfish5 at onetel.com Tue Aug 12 09:42:55 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:42:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76713 I haven't seen this mentioned once in the SHIP talks (altough I havent't read them in its entirety) is it the general consensus on here that it didn't mean anything? Hermione didn't kiss harry in support before his quidditch match, but obviously she was far far younger then? I think its a clear but not so clear sign of affection from Hermione to ron, in that i mean it's such an obvious statement that readers have trouble beliveing that rowling would put such a statement in without fully exploiting romatic feelings between to two with some more important statments, so readers disregard it as moral support but I'm not so sure. From coonkell at msu.edu Tue Aug 12 13:45:15 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly M.) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:45:15 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76714 > > > Joe asked: > > > > I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about what James > and > > > > Lily's occupations were. > > > > My favorite theory regarding this is that James was the DADA > > professor at Hogwarts. I never really thought about James being the DADA teacher, but it could make sense. Maybe that is another reason Snape wants the position so badly. He hated James and what he accomplished, so he wants to prove that he could be a better teacher in the DADA position? Just a thought. My first post in a very long time! :-) -Kelly From pentzouli at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 14:24:52 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:24:52 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76715 > > I'm intrigued to hear about what you think of Harry using the > Cruciatus Curse at the end of OotP. I was stunned and saddened when I > read Harry shout "Crucio" at Bellatrix in the Ministry. There has to > be some huge consequences for him using it. I don't mean he's off of > Azkaban of anything but surly using that Curse it the first dangerous > step in the wrong direction. > Mandy me, holly: thank you for your good words! As for what I believe about the Cruciatus curse that Harry tried to use, well, it takes to lose a loved one in an unjust way to understand how Harry felt that way and why he reacted like this. He wanted desperately to show how lost and mad he was about Sirius's death. That does not mean he could do it, besides, you have the answer right there, from Bellatrix's lips : "You have to really want to cause pain, to enjoy it,righteous anger won't hurt me for long" etc. Harry did bot want to cause pain, he only wanted to get rid of his own painf for loss of Sirius. That is what I think about this circumstance, anyway. cheers holly_phoenix_11 From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 17:34:32 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:34:32 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76716 > > I have some second thoughts, > though, because it is really hard for me to be convinced that anyone, > even Dumbledore, would sacrifice someone's life, even for the greater > good, especially if they trully belong to the good side. > For me, the biggest difference between the Order and the Death Eaters > is the value they give to human or any kind of life. > > cheers > holly_phoenix_11 Hi Holly, I would think the same thing about Dumbledore but I found the following reagarding Dumbledore just TOO incriminating... 1.) During the death as Sirius is falling (arcing) into the veil of death, why is there careful mention that Dumbledore turns towards the dais. We know he can cast spells without a wand and just moments before we see him " Dumbledore's spell pulled him back as easily and effortlessly as though he had hooked him with an invisible line"... Could Dumbldore have done the same for Sirius? I think so. But instead the veil blows as if a great wind blew Sirius through it. Conicidence? I think not. 2.) Dumbldore tells Harry the following: "`There is no shame in what you are feeling, Harry,' said Dumbledore's voice. `On the contrary the fact that you can feel pain like this is your greatest strength." So in Sirius's passing, Harry gains his greatest strength (the ability to repel voldemort) which DD seems to think is CRUCIAL to the epic struggle between good and evil. It is KEY that Harry have this or else (by his own admission) DD would have killed a Voldemort controlled Harry: "`Voldemort's aim in possessing you, as he demonstrated tonight, would not have been my destruction. It would have been yours. He hoped, when he possessed you briefly a short while ago, that I would sacrifice you in the hope of killing him. So you see, I have been trying, in distancing myself from you, to protect you, Harry. An old man's mistake " So DD is essentially saying that it was not necessary to sacrifice Harry for the greater good becuase (though not saying it outright) he has already sacrificed Sirius so that Harry could have his greatest gift. 3.) You mentioned you didn't think DD capable of this type of rationalization... but he himself says the following: `Is there a defence? I defy anyone who has watched you as I have - and I have watched you more closely than you can have imagined - not to want to save you more pain than you had already suffered. WHAT DID I CARE IF NUMBERS OF NAMELESS and FACELESS PEOPLE AND CREATURES WERE SLAUGHTERED IN THE VAUGE FUTURE, if in the here and now you were alive, and well, and happy? I never dreamed that I would have such a person on my hands. By this statement he shows he not only capable of such thought... but guilty of it as well. I believe wholeheartedly that DD was responsible for Sirius's death. Done for the greater good to ensure that Harry recieved his greatest weapon. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 17:34:44 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:34:44 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: > > Deaths in the series so far, 5 (not counting an unknown number of > > Giants). > > > Cedric, an innocent > > Sirius, a plot device > > Crouch Snr, misguided but anti-Voldemort > > Quirrell, possessed > > Bode, under an Imperius curse from Malfoy, then deranged by a > security device, then attacked by a refugee from the herbaceous > border. Not lucky, that man. > > > > > Ariadne: Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce, too, so 7 in all. Don't forget Crouch Jr., wasn't he kissed by a dementor? And he's a bad guy. From issyippon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 16:50:05 2003 From: issyippon at hotmail.com (aint_no_muggle) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:50:05 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76718 --- "ajlboston" wrote: if I am to maintain my faith in Harry and the principle he appears to stand for, there has to be some kind of passive vanquishing of Voldemort, but I don't have a clue what it could be. --- me reading the books i have an impression that Harry will defeat Voldermort but not actually kill him. I've read Dumbledore often saying/commenting that there are worse things than death. Like in book4 when Dumbledore commented upon the room of requirment. It was this comment that pursuaded harry (and his gang) to go look for it as a solution to their problem in book5 issy From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 17:51:06 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:51:06 -0000 Subject: name of Salazar In-Reply-To: <200308121717.30387.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76719 Carolina wrote: > This needs clarification. I've tried to find where the thread started but I > can't, I recall an ff author asked if Slytherin could've fly from Spain to > Britain near Moorish invasion, and if Salazar was a Basque name. I think I started this. The origin of Slytherin's first name can be looked at in two ways. The "meta" question is where did Rowling get it? And the answer is, as someone pointed out, it's the name of the Portuguese dictator, who was a nasty fellow. Rowling lived in Portugal (after the dictatorship) and IIRC even said in an interview that that's where she got the name. Looking at it from "inside" the books, the other three founders all have very British names. The Sorting Hats sings that Salazar Slytherin came "from the fen", but his name is so foreign as to suggest that the fen was very far away. It's clear that we will hear more about the founders in the next two books, and perhaps Rowling will elaborate on this. Future canon aside, the name sparks the imagination. Where could he have come from? The first name suggests the Iberian penninsula. The epic "Song of Roland" tells of Charlemagne's invasion of Spain at just about the right time for Slytherin to have left Spain for England. As to ethnic background, wizards are in some sense a race apart, misunderstood and persecuted. Robert Silverberg, in "Star of Gypsies", had the Gypsies be non-humans with certain magical abilities that humans don't have. It worked as fiction. The Basque, whose language is related to no other, have some analogies to the race of wizards, and might make good fiction too. The Jews, of course, would work as well. In medieval times they were barred from the usual way of being rich (owning large amounts of land and exploiting the peasants) and had to resort to activities the the nobility would not or could not engage in, such as commerce and banking. History has shown those activities to be more lucrative than land-owning. I assume that analogies between the wizards and the Jews have been discussed here at great and probably acrimonius length (I'm new here, and don't know) and so will drop the topic. My limited experience with fanfiction suggests that while a postulate such as "Slytherin was a foreign immigrant" just sits there, something specific like "Slytherin was a Basque wizard who fled the invasion of Spain by Charlemagne" tends to start all sorts of gears turning. Thus the initial speculation. I must say that the responses here have been illuminating. - Caipora From meltowne at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 18:08:43 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:08:43 -0000 Subject: Pensieve question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76720 bibphile" wrote: Karen wrote: In Snape's penseive, Harry saw Snape following James & Co. He was concerned that Snape wouldn't stay where he could see his father, but Snape stayed near them. It appeared as though Snape was deliberately staying in viewing/hearing range of the group bibphile : I don't think Snape was within earshot of them... He was within sight of them, but he was so absorbed in his exam paper that I don't even know if he was aware of their presence until they called out his "name." ME: It certainly looked like he was absorbed in the exam, but it's possible he was pretending to be absorbed so they wouldn't notice him - of if they did, they wouldn't know he was spying. This of course would imply that he may have known more about Lupin's status than he let on. Karen: If the penseive records memories from the user's perspective, can those memories be trusted as fact, or are they tainted by the user's own feelings? Bibphile: I don't think it does. If we were limited to what Snape couls see and hear, we wouldn't know James was doodling "L.E." on his paper. James was three aisle over from Snape. Snape certainly wasn't looking on his paper. ME: Our brains "see" much more than we pay attention to. It is possible that James was visible doing this in Snape's peripheral vision. His brain recorded it, even if it didn't register. I view it much like photographic memory. I knew someone in high school who truly had photographic memory following a head injury. He had difficulty studying/memorizing, but if he made sure he read everything relevant, he could recall it an "reread" it from memory during his exams. Karen: If the penseive works like a video recorder, it would be a convenient way to find out from any person whether they are telling the truth about a given event without having to use a veritas potion. If it is a video recorder, then why couldn't the MoM use it with Harry to find out if Voldemort really returned or not? Bibphile: They don't want the truth. They want comfortable lies. ME: I absolutely agree. Admitting the LV is back would require Fudge to actively do something about it (but he has no idea what to do). By not admitting it to the WW in general, he doesn't have to listen to the Wizarding public compain that nothing is being done. I view the pensieve as recording what that person *could* perceive if they were paying attention to details. It might be much like using only 1 sense rather 2 or 3 to experience something; much like a deep gash in your leg hurting more once you see the blood. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 18:11:42 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:11:42 -0000 Subject: Pensieve question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76721 Karen asked: > One more question... was Snape using Dumbledore's penseive or did > he have one of his own? Well, this is an interesting question. Ch. 24 states: "Harry recognized it at once - it was Dumbledore's Pensieve." But the fact that the Pensieve belonged to Dumbledore could have been an assumption on Harry's part, since Dumbledore is the only one Harry has ever seen with a Pensieve before. It strikes me as strange that Dumbledore would loan out his Pensieve to another person, since the Pensieve holds a lot of important information (not the least of which is the exact wording of Trelawney's first genuine prediction). Perhaps this is yet another indication of how strongly he trusts Snape? ~Phyllis From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 12 07:12:51 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 03:12:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What's going on under Snape's robes (longish) References: <003e01c3590c$315c0660$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: <3F389373.2020509@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76722 The Crashing Boar wrote: > > Snape comes sweeping into the dungeons, and before a stunned > class breaks out with "Raindrops on roses and whiskers on > kittens, bright copper kettles and warm woolen mittens, brown > paper packages tied up with string..." before turning back to > the blackboard "....will be some of the ingredients you will > need for the emetic potion we will be brewing today." "Just a spoonful of sugar makes the Polyjuice go down ..." From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 12 18:22:32 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:22:32 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > > wrote: > > > Deaths in the series so far, 5 (not counting an unknown number > of > > > Giants). > > > > Cedric, an innocent > > > Sirius, a plot device > > > Crouch Snr, misguided but anti-Voldemort > > > Quirrell, possessed > > > Bode, under an Imperius curse from Malfoy, then deranged by a > > security device, then attacked by a refugee from the herbaceous > > border. Not lucky, that man. > > > > > > > > > Ariadne: Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce, too, so 7 in all. > > Don't forget Crouch Jr., wasn't he kissed by a dementor? And he's a > bad guy. Bertha Jorkins and Frank Bryce, yes. Missed those. Barty Crouch Jr., no. The Dementors kiss does not kill, just remove the soul. Kneasy From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Tue Aug 12 18:23:06 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:23:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76724 Sebfish5 said: I haven't seen this mentioned once in the SHIP talks (altough I havent't read them in its entirety) is it the general consensus on here that it didn't mean anything? Hermione didn't kiss harry in support before his quidditch match, but obviously she was far far younger then? I think its a clear but not so clear sign of affection from Hermione to ron, in that i mean it's such an obvious statement that readers have trouble beliveing that rowling would put such a statement in without fully exploiting romatic feelings between to two with some more important statments, so readers disregard it as moral support but I'm not so sure. Joj says: I?m rereading Oop and just read that part. The first time I read it, I thought Hermione kissed both. Ron, then Harry. On the second read, I?m thinking she just kissed Ron. I just don?t know. Both times though, I thought she kissed Ron to distract him from seeing the ?Weasly is our King? badges. I do thing R/H have feelings for each other. Hermione really never shows them though, except in her reactions to Ron?s jealousy. She knew kissing Ron would throw him for a loop for a minute, at least long enough for Harry to get him past the Slytherins. During my first reading of Oop, I got a H/H feeling for the first time. I?m half way through my second read, and I can?t figure out where I got that impression from. It must be from the end. :-) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 18:26:40 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:26:40 -0000 Subject: Pensieve question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > It certainly looked like he was absorbed in the exam, but it's > possible he was pretending to be absorbed so they wouldn't notice > him - of if they did, they wouldn't know he was spying. This of > course would imply that he may have known more about Lupin's status than he let on. > But how could he hear them if Harry (who was much closer) couldn't. Besides, I don't think Snape would have been stupid enough to go looking for Lupin on a full moon if he knew Lupin was a werewolf. > ME: > Our brains "see" much more than we pay attention to. It is possible that James was visible doing this in Snape's peripheral vision. His brain recorded it, even if it didn't register. > >From three aisle away? And with his own face less than an inch from his paper. I doubt it. > I view the pensieve as recording what that person *could* perceive if they were paying attention to details. It might be much like using only 1 sense rather 2 or 3 to experience something; much like a deep gash in your leg hurting more once you see the blood. > I disagree. I don't think a pensieve is that limited. It is magic after all. Unless I'm mistaken, when Harry went into Dumbldore's memory, he could see thing that were happening behind Dumbledore. I think a pensive is an absolutely objective and accurate recording of everything that happened within sight of the subject. I mean I bet you can stand with you're back to the direction the subject is facing and still see something. Otherwise Harry would have turned in some direction and seen nothing. A human geing cannot see 360 degrees at once, much less up and down as well. bibphile From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 18:28:19 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:28:19 -0000 Subject: Pensieve question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Phyllis" wrote: > It strikes me as strange that Dumbledore would loan out his Pensieve > to another person, since the Pensieve holds a lot of important > information (not the least of which is the exact wording of > Trelawney's first genuine prediction). Perhaps this is yet another > indication of how strongly he trusts Snape? > I'n not saying it's the same Pensieve. But if it is, Dumbledore could have just taken the memories out before he loaned it to Snape. bibphile From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 12 14:57:28 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:57:28 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter names - tribute to Roald Dahl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76727 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I could never get into the sombre discussions about the > sort of psychological effect Harry's upbringing would have on him, > or if he's suffering from Post-Traumatic Stress Syndrome. His life > is just too farcical in its blackness. Yes, yes, I know that things It is played like a Punch and Judy show. Am I really to believe that Judy is traumatised by the death of her child. No! It is all surface and that is where farce lives and breaths. I have to agree entirely about this... Toothpick and kleenex???! I'm supposed to make some sort of deep psychological connection when with that kind of stuff. Harry doesn't seem tortured to me. Not one bit. Even his teen angst is nothing more than moderate to heavy ordinary teen behaviour. He sulks but that is hardly an expression of a tortured soul. If it was I'm much deeper than previously thought. Well, if you want to see what Harry would really look like a good book is A Man Named Dave. This is the story of one of California's worst abuse cases. And Dave Peltzer is very Harry-like in that he is a very kind and gentle man who grew up to be a fighter. He didn't let his past destroy him. Very inspirational man. One of my heroes. This book gave me nightmares. Also good are his previous ones, but A man Name Dave covers the same ground the other two did in less detail and extends into his adult life. The difference btween him and our dear brave Harry is his story as an adult is filled with the struggle to put his past behind him and deal with the abuse and its aftermath. His post abusive childhood is filled with atypical behaviour. He didn't behave like a snotty teenager; he expressed his pain and damage in the way many people express pain and damage - by being damaged and different. I just can't believe that Rowling is some brilliant novelists exploring the psychology of childhood pain and the teenage mind. She's simply not that good. She should have stuck with the fairytale. > it's a fairy-tale novel (or it was, in > the earlier books) and I feel sure that Rowling meant her > description of the Dursleys to be a black comedy, not a serious > expose about the things that go on behind the doors of neat suburban > houses. Absolutely. Though frankly I never found it THAT funny. She's witty but truly dark humour isn't her strength either. Compare her iwth Lemony Snicket's inexhaustible stock of horribly delightful adults. Or Lewis Carrol's Queens. Or Edward Gorey (the prince of dark kiddie humour). Even Johnny the Homicidal Maniac is better in its adoption of this tradition. (I recommend Johnny highly to anyone who loves a dark story - but it is a comic...) JKR is better in the middle ground dealing with her good characters. Her strength is in pleasantness IMHO rather than the big good and evil drama. The Burrow is a hundred times funnier, than the our first meeting with the Dursleys. That tumbledown house, shirts hanging everywhere, the chickens in the front and Molly's rages. Molly greeting Harry so sweetly in CoS always makes me laugh. I can just hear her soft loving tone. JKR's just generally better with the goodies than the baddies. Snape being the notable exception. But I think that might be explained by the fact that she knew and still knows that Snape is a better man than he sometimes comes off as. With characters like Draco she seems incapable of not reminding us how pathetic he is .... It keeps it from being as funny as it could be. But JKR's mystified why kids would want to dress up as Draco. Well if you can't understand why kids would want to play at being the bad guy or why women would want to play at dating Serverus Snape, you don't understand the dark side of people. The Brontes knew that much... She should read Whuthering Heights (or read it again). Emily Bronte had full faith in the ability of darkness to be attractive and facinating. Heathcliff's the most horrible romantic hero I have ever seen. Yet you pull for him! Golly From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 12 15:03:02 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:03:02 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! (bring it on) In-Reply-To: <67A3B8D0-CCD2-11D7-B827-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Why? There is even a large faction that seem to think that Voldy will > be defeated but not killed. Again, why? > > Being an evil minded sadist, I raise my standard to the cause of > blood-boltered mayhem, cathartic come-uppance and satisfying > slaughter. Away with this namby-pamby redemption through the power of > love! Can you think of anything more Mills and Boon? More adolescent > fantasy? Ugh! > > All you need is love? Rubbish. Hey you have one fan on your side. I wanted a rising war. Danger and all I got was a piffling little battle motivated by Harry's stupidity. Bring on the slaughter! I want to DD get the axe. I want to see Hermione get the full BLOODY AXE. Harry was too much to hope for. So long as it isn't Molly or Arthur's, let the thames run with blood! At least that would be exciting. > So cheer up, friends! The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse may yet > emerge from the Dark Forest. > Kneasy It she brings them in, she'll probably just make them as impotent as the Thestrals. Golly. From mbush at lainc.com Tue Aug 12 19:00:05 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:00:05 -0000 Subject: Retrospective Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76729 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tcyhunt" wrote: > While going through PS/SS the other day, I noticed something that > hadn't caught my eye in the many, many readings I've done of the > first book. Chapter 16 (Through the Trapdoor) starts with "In years > to come, Harry would never quite remember how he had managed to get > through his exams when he half expected Voldemort to come bursting > through the door at any moment." Isn't there something similar in GoF of OoP? near the end about "in the month that followed" or something... (must be GoF, since there was speculation as to when the opening paragraphs of OoP were in relation to it prior to the book coming out) and then it jumps back to those days before leaving Hogwarts for the summer... I'm not sure what the significance is, but they certainly jump out at you because it is so different from the styling of the rest of the books. Mtwelovett From carmenharms at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 19:02:24 2003 From: carmenharms at yahoo.com (snazzzybird) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:02:24 -0000 Subject: Lily and Alice Longbottom Was: Who were Lily's Hogwarts friends? In-Reply-To: <32.3c922d2e.2c698dd5@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76730 > rredordead at a... wrote: > > > Lily had to have had girl friends in school and most likely one > > particular girlfriend. Then RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > Well, my vote for a best friend would be Alice Longbottom. > > It would definitely explain why Harry has never heard from > Lily's best friend. Just my guess though :) > Now snazzzybird says: That's exactly what I've been thinking -- Alice Longbottom as Lily Potter's best friend. As a matter of fact, I first thought of this when considering the fact that, although we know a lot about Harry's godfather, Sirius Black, we don't even know the identity of his godmother. Surely she would have made herself known to him by now, if she were able. It occurred to me that Alice, Lily's co-worker and sister-in-arms, would be a natural choice. Perhaps Lily was Neville's godmother as well. --snazzzybird, who hopes the Longbottoms get restored to sanity somewhere along the line. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 19:05:38 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:05:38 -0000 Subject: Final Battle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > In PoA and GoF Harry was at risk of death, but was never actually > close to death. In neither case did Harry end up spending the end of term in the Hospital wing. > Harry didn't spend the end of term there, but he did spend time in the hospital at the end of GoF. (p699, US) "You will come with me to the hospital wing. I do not want you returning to the dormitory tonight....[Sirius] walked with Harry and Dumbledore out of the office, accompanying them down a flight of stairs to the hospital wing." He didn't suffer physical damage, but certainly suffered emotionally. Ravenclaw Bookworm From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 12 19:19:41 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:19:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: Symbology: Quidditch and Liberation Message-ID: <20030812191941.67847.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76732 Continuing my theory that HP is an allegory for the universal Path of Liberation, I would like to examine quidditch to see what message it contains. It appears that the wand originated in ancient Egypt. The early wand was actually a caduceus. Thats a stick with a serpent wound around it. Id like to discuss especially the caduceus carried by Hermes or Mercury. View a straight rod held vertically, with a sphere at the top and a smaller sphere at the bottom. The top sphere has two wings extending from it. Around the rod are two serpents intertwined around each other and the stick three times. In liberating symbology this wand or staff symbolizes the liberated human being. The top sphere symbolizes the consciousness. It has wings to symbolize the heights to which it can rise and the speed with which it can move. The rod is the spinal column, the two serpents (among many levels of meaning) symbolize the two strings of the sympathetic nervous system on the right and left of the spinal cord. The lower sphere is the unconscious mind, and its mirror in the plexus sacralis (the sacred plexus!). The basilisk (kundalini) which normally sleeps there has been killed. Conscious and unconscious are united. There is total harmony. Of course the golden snitch is the top part of the caduceus: the new consciousness! Quidditch is an allegory within an allegory, to press the point home as it were. Harry is the reborn soul. He is the seeker for the new consciousness. He flies among players who belong to two opposite teams. Quidditch is a game of two opposing forces. Yes, obviously, so what, I hear you say. Well my theory is that there are two universes: the universe of opposites and the universe of Love. We all know the bi-polar universe. All of us continuously make our way between two poles, between dark and light, between hatred and love, war and peace, life and death. I have a theory that HP is the roadmap to a parallel universe which is not bi-polar. I believe it is our original home and our destination. I read a very recent post, in which the writer said, no love without hate. That is true in our universe. We define everything by comparing it to its opposite. However in the Universe of Love things are not defined at all. There is the original spirit (God, Adona, Jehovah, Allah, call it what you like) and there is the original living creation, living in eternal growth to ever greater divinity and glory, according to a Divine Plan. There is no such thing as sin. What we call sin is the deviation from the Divine Plan, which results in immediate ejection from the Universe of Love, not by an arbitrary act of an angry God but by a natural law. Its like a swimmer in an extremely fast moving current. You swim with the current: you get places. Swim against it and you end up in big trouble. What has all this to do with quidditch? Well, what happens when the seeker catches the snitch? The game ends! Its the end of the interplay of opposites! The consciousness is at harmony. There are people who want JK Rowling to have the Nobel Prize for Literature. Id say wholeheartedly YES! But give her the Peace Prize as well. For she is showing us the way to ETERNAL PEACE. Hans in Holland ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 19:27:57 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:27:57 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly M." wrote: > > > > Joe asked: > > > > > > My favorite theory regarding this is that James was the DADA > > > professor at Hogwarts. > > > I never really thought about James being the DADA teacher, but it > could make sense. Maybe that is another reason Snape wants > the position so badly. He hated James and what he > accomplished, so he wants to prove that he could be a better > teacher in the DADA position? Just a thought. > > My first post in a very long time! :-) > -Kelly Now this is a bit morbid, but think about the how the DADA position is cursed (I mean no one has held onto it for a year in the books. Quirell obivously was into his second year, but we don't know how long her was there). Do you think maybe James was subject to the curse of the DADA too? Serena From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 19:32:12 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:32:12 -0000 Subject: Oh Rats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: > Did anyone notice how often dead rats are mentioned in connection > with Sirius? He eats them in GoF and feeds them to buckbeak in > OOtP. A vicarious way of murdering Peter - perhaps? Just a thought- > missing snuffles. > Lz Ok--wild speculation. Not only is representative of his hatered of Peter, but some way most likely indirectly he manages to get his revenge on Peter towards the end of the books (but for all you Sirius fans out there, maybe this indicates that in some way he will come back from the dead!). Serena From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 19:38:32 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:38:32 -0000 Subject: Paintings vs. Photos Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76735 I've not seen this posted, but I'm sorry if it's been discussed: Why is it that painted portraits can talk but photos can't. And in that case, why doesn't everyone have a portrait painted of themselves to they can leave a bit of themselves behind after they die. I mean maybe there are portraits of James, Lily, and Sirius out there that Harry could talk to. Or at least some of his relatives. Also, if you have a portrait painted when your say, ten, does it know everything you know until you die or is just everything you knew up to age 10. Or maybe it's like Dorian Grey, only the picture just stops aging when you die. Thoughts,opinions? Serena From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Tue Aug 12 19:40:11 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:40:11 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76736 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly M." > wrote: > > > > > Joe asked: > > > > > > > > My favorite theory regarding this is that James was the DADA > > > > professor at Hogwarts. > > > > > > I never really thought about James being the DADA teacher, but it > > could make sense. Maybe that is another reason Snape wants > > the position so badly. He hated James and what he > > accomplished, so he wants to prove that he could be a better > > teacher in the DADA position? Just a thought. > > > > My first post in a very long time! :-) > > -Kelly > > Now this is a bit morbid, but think about the how the DADA position > is cursed (I mean no one has held onto it for a year in the books. > Quirell obivously was into his second year, but we don't know how > long her was there). Do you think maybe James was subject to the > curse of the DADA too? > > > Serena I have always wondered why Harry has not asked anyone what his parents did for a living. I would like to hear JKR's reason for his lack of curiousity there. Since book four, I have thought the obvious - that the Potters were Aurors. But since everyone seems to be so secretive about them, maybe James and/or Lily worked for the Department of Mysteries. If one or both of them were Unspeakables, maybe that explains why no one ever talks about J&L's careers - no one really knows what the Unspeakables actually do. Just a thought.. Brookeshanks From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 12 19:41:02 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:41:02 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: <20030812155642.66258.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ivan Vablatsky wrote: > --- B Arrowsmith wrote: > --------------------------------- > Deaths in the series so far, 5 (not counting an unknown number of > Giants).[...] > All you need is love? Rubbish. Projecting loving thoughts at a murderous > psychopath does not stop him reaching for the meat-axe. [...] > Kneasy > > Hans in Holland replies: > > Thanks for this provocative post. I feel provoked. > > I agree with you under normal conditions and I can see your point of view. > If HP were an ordinary novel you'd be quite right, but I'm sticking to my > theory that HP is not a fictional story but an allegory on how to go the > Path of Liberation. > ] Hi, Hans. Glad you responded; I enjoy provoking responses, lets me know who's paying attention. Grit your teeth! More provocation coming up, with some clipping. ] An allegory is a symbolic representation, not fact, therefore fiction. > In his fifth year Harry has liberated his mental ego. Voldemort can no > longer possess Harry's mind because of the love in his heart. ] Mental liberation requires discipline. That Harry does not have, yet. Will he ever? Anybody's guess. And I'll bet my second best cauldron against a chocolate frog that V. enters Harrys' mind again in the next book. > > In his sixth year Harry will liberate his emotional ego, situated in the > heart, obviously. My theory (and it really is only a theory) is that this > means that Harry will be able to open his heart to Divine Love totally. It > will become a powerful magic force that he can consciously use. I don't know > exactly how JK Rowling will turn this into a story, but if the coincidences > with the Alchemical Wedding of Christian Rosencreutz continue, it probably > means that Harry will be able to open the Room of Love and, to put in into > the AW terms, "behold Lady Venus". Harry will gain mastery over "a force > that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human > intelligence, than the forces of nature." > ] I'm sorry to have to say this, but I think you're way off. Yes, we all have our pet theories, and some of them are based on the slenderest of canon, but you seem to be ignoring canon entirely and basing future events on a book that you, personally have found to be profound. Has JKR read this book? Even if she has, why should she slavishly follow its precepts? Can't she tell her own tale? > > I want to provide some evidence of this force. I found an article written in > a magazine published in the Netherlands in 1946. ("Nieuwe Religieuze > Orientering") It was written by a person whom I suspect is quite advanced on > the road of liberation. The name of the article is, "Love your Enemies" (a > quote from the Sermon on the Mount in the New Testament for those who don't > know). I would like to provide you with a translation which, to my mind, > proves my theory. ] The quote is "Love your enemies as you would yourself." Yet self love is not considered to be something to be proud of. The quote is almost as contradictory as the prophesy in OoP. > > "...In February 1941 I was seated opposite an ober-oberf?hrer of the > Gestapo. I had been arrested! (The author had written an article a warning > against NAZISM - Hans) He had a handsome, regular face, light blue eyes. The > photos of his wife and children stood on his desk. He was an absolutely > normal person. There was nothing evil, nothing bestial about him. He looked > at me and I looked back at him. We smiled at each other. For a moment we saw > the tragic humour of the situation and then, suddenly, it came. His eyes > became fixed and the pupils widened. He was being overshadowed. His throat > was being controlled. This can always be discerned by an unnecessary rising > and falling of the voice and a total change in sound. His head was bent > slightly forward as if he were being gripped in the neck. I understood. This > man was being possessed. He himself was pushed into the background and what > was talking to me was the spirit in the background: the roaring black beast. > I shoved aside my resistance and the reason why I was there, and I was > filled with an intense compassion for this Mr ober-ober thingy. While a > torrent of abuse and vituperation were being poured out over me, I prayed > for this peculiar enemy and wrapped him in the light of the Rosycross. And > his possession left him. He shook himself like a wet poodle. My strange > enemy returned to normal and became himself again. I had seen and heard my > enemy. I had resisted and defeated my enemy; I had driven him away. But my > enemy was not the ober-f?hrer. It was someone else. This German man was just > a victim because of the special quality of German blood. He was hereditarily > burdened, a sick man. Did you know that Hitler was possessed?..." The author > states further on that he was never again contacted by the Gestapo. ] I'm sorry, I cannot take such musings and reminisences as established fact. If a third party had been present and reported them, I might view them differently. Even then, the prisoner has no means of establishing the interrogators thoughts or mental state, except in his own imagination. That is what I suspect is reported, imagination. And by todays standards, it could be classed as rascist, which is not very liberating. > > > JK Rowling has said that she doesn't believe in ordinary magic, but she does > believe in the magic of love. That really is the understatement of the > century. This is not a question of "Away with this namby-pamby redemption > through the power of love! Can you think of anything more Mills and Boon? > More adolescent fantasy? Ugh!" to quote Kneasy, but the undeniable reality > of Love as a magic force more wonderful and more terrible than death, than > human intelligence, than the forces of nature. ] No. Meaningful love cannot exist without intelligence and there is no reason to consider death wonderful. That is the philosophy of anti-life; listen to potential suicide bombers. Death comes to every living thing and I have seen too much of it. Sometimes life goes like a whisp of smoke on a breeze, but usually it is hard and painful and the victim is helpless against inevitability. Even if they welcome death, it rarely treats them well. But I relish it in fiction. Then I can laugh at it. The forces of Nature will remain when all life is extinct. I agree, love can be more terrible than death; is that a good thing? Love too can be that destructive. I know, I've seen it. Only one Being has presumed to redeem through love and He could hardly be classed as a normal human. Even He never claimed to provide the promised redemption in the here and now. As a practicing Christian, I doubt JKR would be so presumptious or so provocative. Kneasy ___________________________________________________ > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From frantyck at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 19:04:08 2003 From: frantyck at yahoo.com (frantyck) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:04:08 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: <004d01c3581b$1bc40ba0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76738 >Snape has physically got very close to Harry (and others), looming over them and getting his face close to them, but no one has ever suggested that he smells - either from some kind of body odour or any kind of masking scent. Unattended greasy hair and teeth would generate an unpleasant smell, and I doubt that Harry & co. would fail to make comment to the fact. > > Dawn Well, Rowling never did do much building of sensory environments for the reader. She says what everything looks like -- approximately -- but rarely what it sounds or smells like. I'd say this book stands out among them all for the number of times she describes the smell of something (Trelawney smelling of cooking sherry is especially pathetic). Quite a noteworthy change, I think, one of several in her writing style with this book. So -- even if Snape isn't described as having a personal pong, it doesn't signify much. Neither does Hagrid smell, and he really should. Rrishi From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 12 19:07:15 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:07:15 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter names - tribute to Roald Dahl? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" > wrote: > > His (Harry's)life is just too farcical in its blackness. > Yes, yes, I know that things that bad and worse happen in real life, > but this isn't real life. It isn't even just a novel; it's a fairy- > tale novel (or it was, in the earlier books) and I feel sure that > Rowling meant her description of the Dursleys to be a black comedy, > not a serious expose about the things that go on behind the doors of > neat suburban houses. > > OOTP feels bleak to me, that's the best word I can think of. From > the dark House of Black, to Umbridge, to the basement of the MOM and > Sirius's death, the story took a turn down a different road. That's > not to say it isn't an equally important story, or that what happened > in OOTP isn't crucial to the big picture, I just missed the quirky > daily events that are so part of Harry's magical world. > Ariadne Well you're not alone... I think that is because fairytales are psychologically crude. Cinderella doesn't develop anorexia, descend into self abuse or prostitute herself because she wasn't loved as a child. We are able to hate the bad guys and glory when the little cinder girl triumphs. In really psychological tales of how pain affects people the triumphs are bitter sweet because they can't remove the pain of what has come before. It is still there. The Scarlett Letter is like that. You never get away from Hester's own view of herself or the effect the persecution has had on her. The problem with HP is that Harry has been from books 1-4 (in my opinion anyway) a cinderella figure with his stunning ability to be free from any desire to gain Petunia's love or a punishing lack of selfconfidence. He's even rather bold with Petunia when she's dying is new school clothes. He hates them and encourages us to hate them too. Just like we hate Cinderella's step sisters and step mother. We triumph whether they are bound in hot iron shoes or whether they are just forced to call Cinderella 'You Highness'. We don't wonder about the psychological reality of her happily ever after. OOTP aims at being much more and therefore fails IMHO because you cannot retroactively make Harry's life with the Dursleys more painful than what we saw or make his trials with Voldemort more traumatizing. Sure they were hard but he seemed fine after them once Mme Pomfrey patched him up. Even in GOF he seems to have dealt with his pain and is already raising himself up for battle like the good little soldier we know he is. The same boy who fought the basilisk and never thought about it again. I laughed when he railed about his past. All I could think is "Come on! You loved it!" It was so discordent with the tone of the rest of the series. IME Rowling thinks she can write Harry out of his past. I think she's kidding herself. She can't turn Cinderella into Christ. It doesn't work that way. A Cinderella tale is far too psychologically crude. And she enver bothered to make it anything but that. I think we liked it that way. HP's popularity may have been something of a modern day Punch and Judy show. Part fun and farce with some modern family values and boy scout ethics mixed in. Something the old and young all agreed was a good time. Golly From yellows at aol.com Tue Aug 12 19:50:59 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:50:59 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: HQ for the order- Curse Destructive Power Message-ID: <50BFA261.3A25266E.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76740 In a message dated 8/11/2003 11:09:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > Yairadubin: > > > Where was the HQ for the old ORDER OF TH PHOENIX? Are they going to relocate now that Sirius is dead, or did the owners of that place die? > > Claire: > > Perhaps the HQ was Godric's Hollow. It would make sense, in a way, that it was totally destroyed when LV killed Lily and James. ... > > Dan: > > Unless, of course, The Potters' house was obliterated because of the reversal of AK. > bboy_mn: > People keep wondering how the Death Curse could destroy a house. Afteral, the people who are killed by the Death Curse are left unmarked. (snip) I would say that Voldemort's intent in killing Harry was about a vicious and powerful as it could possible be, therefore, > when it rebounded it carried a huge potential for physical damage. Now me: I agree with Bboy that even the AK curse, which leaves no marks on its victims, can tear a place up if it misses its mark a few times. My problem with this theory is not with the place being obliterated by the curse. I don't think the old HQ could have been Godric's Hollow because then most of the Order would have to have known that Peter was the secret keeper. In OoP, Harry got a note from DD, and presumably so did the other current Order members, unless they were told directly from DD's mouth. If the 1970s Order members wanted to go to HQ, they had to learn its location from the secret keeper. If the location was Godric's Hollow, the secret keeper was Peter. They would have known all along that it wasn't Sirius. Brief Chronicles From rayheuer3 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 19:52:22 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:52:22 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Paintings vs. Photos Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76742 serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com writes: > Why is it that painted portraits can talk but photos can't. And in > that case, why doesn't everyone have a portrait painted of > themselves to they can leave a bit of themselves behind after they > die. I mean maybe there are portraits of James, Lily, and Sirius > out there that Harry could talk to. Or at least some of his > relatives. > > Also, if you have a portrait painted when your say, ten, does it > know everything you know until you die or is just everything you > knew up to age 10. Or maybe it's like Dorian Grey, only the picture > just stops aging when you die. This has been discussed here and there, but perhaps we need it all in one thread. I'm not sure why paintings and photographs should work differently, but perhaps it has something to do with a "machine" capturing a photograph, while the talent (and thus the "magic") of a portrait artist is also contained in a painting. My take is that a small piece of the spiritual essence ("soul" if you will) of the subject is captured in the painting. This "soul" has the knowledge and memories of the person at the time of the painting, but from there on, acquires memories separately. We know from canon that portraits can move from one painting to another, and in OotP, we find that they can move from one portrait of themselves to another portrait in another place (this was hinted at in PS/SS with the frog cards). As in the muggle world, certain people of stature have portraits of themselves in their home and/or office, and can thus "spy" n a wide range of places through this "portrait network". James and Lily had photographs taken, but it is possible that, being fairly young and active, they never sat for a portrait. It is also possible that Voldemort destroyed all known portraits of those he fought, just to keep the "spy network" blind. Another question is what effect physical damage to the portrait has on the subject. In PoA, we saw "the fat lady" suffer harm as though she were physically attacked, and that also brings up the possibility of "portrait doctors" in the WW. Enough from me, what do others think? -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From artcase at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 06:07:30 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 06:07:30 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind In-Reply-To: <20030810223815.58486.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, A Featheringstonehaugh wrote: ...> > AF: Indeed. Speaking of grammatical nightmares...... > AF: Yes. "Spare" us, (PLEASE), from "cliches" such as "purple prose that trickles down from the Muse." and from the "overuse" of ("punctuation") marks and CAPS. Quoted: "purple prose" as used by Stephen King in "On Writing." ... > AF: What is improving - JKR's lack of training and experience? And this perceived lack of training and experience is improving with ____ training and experience? ...of training and experience are part of the preposition, therefore the noun is "lack" which is improving. ... > AF: "their" and "In retrospective"? Typos, no doubt. Surely you intended to write "his" and "in retrospect". I used the plural intentionally to avoid sexism. ... > AF: To qualify? Even with that curious word choice, perhaps a better phrasing would be: "To qualify any of these books as stunning examples of Literature would, for a start, be an insult to Strunk and White." You have proved a point here. To quote Buffy The Vampire Slayer, "My Bad." ... > AF: Surely , just surely, you meant Literature, not literature. Let's not forget that capital letter, shall we? I stand by the original capitalization, "literature" with a little "l" because the series is unfinished and unproven. Art From yellows at aol.com Tue Aug 12 19:53:29 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:53:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily and Petunia-Who is older & Marvolo - faternal or maternal grandfather Message-ID: <20272450.12483331.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76744 In a message dated 8/12/2003 12:46:36 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Angel writes: > On the other hand, Tom Riddle explained his name in CoS that "Tom > after my father, Marvolo after my grandfather". In Chinese, > the "grandfather" was translated into "the MATERNAL > grandfather", > i.e. the father of Tom's witch mother. I wonder where they get the information to make these decisions. Do you think they could possibly contact JKR? It would make a good case for the Grindel. theory. Brief Chronicles From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 20:12:20 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:12:20 -0000 Subject: Symbolism: The Four Houses of Hogwarts and Liberation In-Reply-To: <20030811194727.90552.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ivan Vablatsky wrote: > In previous messages I have expounded my theory that HP is the timeless > story of human liberation. > > In the Bible the story of the rich young man can give us a beautiful clue. > Matthew chapter 19 verses 16-24 tells us the story of a young man who came > to Jesus asking how he could go the Path of Liberation. The young man had > obeyed all the commandments but when Jesus told him he also had to sell all > he had, he turned away sadly, "for he had great possessions." Many people > interpret this to mean that people who have a lot of money have trouble > earning eternal life, but in my theory the Bible is more subtle than that. Actually, the young man came to Jesus and asked what he needed to do to gain eternal life, which I so not condsider equates with the four sections of your Path of Liberation. The young man did say to Jesus that he had kept the commandments which Jesus had listed but Jesus did then say that he needed to go and sell his possessions. It has been pointed out that in the list of commandments which Jesus cited, he left out "you shall no covet". This was possibly the young man's failing. Jesus in other places summarised the commandments as two - love your God and love your neighbour as you would love yourself. The crux of Christian teaching came be summed up in John 3:16 and not by looking at the four paths which are not founded in the teaching of Christ. Geoff From yellows at aol.com Tue Aug 12 20:13:02 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:13:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's Death -- 13 to a table defense Message-ID: <59E50D09.50500CBF.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76746 I had a thought this morning about the 13-to-a-table issue. Trelawney tells us that, when 13 people sit at one table, the first to rise will be the first to die. In OoP, 13 people sit at a table and Sirius is the first to rise and the first to die. Yet, in GoF, 13 people sit at a table and DD is the first to rise while CEDRIC is the first to die. But I've thought of something -- GoF is the book in which JKR gives us quite a lot of references to DD's old age. She seems to go on and on about it toward the end, calling him "old and weary" (pg. 604, UK paperback), and, even during The Pensieve chapter, "it struck Harry suddenly how very old he was looking" (pg. 520, UK paperback). What if DD was *supposed* to die during this book? What if he has grown very, very old by now and is starting to show it? What if his life couldn't hold out much longer than The Pensieve chapter -- BEFORE Cedric meets his own end? But DD senses his own death coming and knows that Harry still needs his help. DD can't leave Harry alone so early in the game, so DD cheats death. Perhaps he calls his old friend, Nicolas, as asks for some of the Elixir to give him just three more years. In that case, DD *should* have been the first to die, but because he beat the system, he was an exception to the rule. :) Brief Chronicles From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Aug 12 20:18:37 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:18:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76747 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frantyck" wrote: > So -- even if Snape isn't described as having a personal pong, it > doesn't signify much. Neither does Hagrid smell, and he really should. > Not to mention all the weird animals about the place. What about the giant horses of Beauxbatons? Or the dragons? wanda From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 20:32:59 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:32:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frantyck" wrote: > So -- even if Snape isn't described as having a personal pong, it > doesn't signify much. Neither does Hagrid smell, and he really should. > True. But I still think it would be in Harry's thoughts if Snaped smelled bad evn if he didn't "mention" it with Hagrid. It could be sort of like the "fat" thing. In the first four books Harry thought about Dudley being fat just about everytime Dudley was mentioned, but only once in passing about Mrs. Weasley's weight. Besieds, I'm 99% sure Ron would be making comments about it if Snape stank. bibphile From mbush at lainc.com Tue Aug 12 20:35:57 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:35:57 -0000 Subject: Paintings vs. Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76749 > serenamoonsilver writes: > > > Why is it that painted portraits can talk but photos can't. Ray Wrote: This has been discussed here and there, but perhaps we need it all in one thread. I'm not sure why paintings and photographs should work differently, but perhaps it has something to do with a "machine" capturing a photograph, while the talent (and thus the "magic") of a portrait artist is also contained in a painting. We know from canon that portraits can move from one painting to another, and in OotP, we find that they can move from one portrait of themselves to another portrait in another place (this was hinted at in PS/SS with the frog cards). As in the muggle world, certain people of stature have portraits of themselves in their home and/or office, and can thus "spy" n a wide range of places through this "portrait network". Another question is what effect physical damage to the portrait has on subject. In PoA, we saw "the fat lady" suffer harm as though she were physically attacked, and that also brings up the possibility of "portrait doctors" in the WW. Now me: (mtwelovett) I posed some similar questions in post #63180 regarding Photos, portraits, choclate frog cards, and mirrors, but didn't get a lot of response but that may have been due to possibly being burried in the thread, and since it was June 24, there was a whole lot of activity around here. I made some additional points in message # 72123. There certainly seems to be a difference in photos and paintings. We haven't seen anyone talking to the Daily Prophet photos, or ones in Witch Weekly, or the Quibbler... (or is that what Luna is doing???) My pet theory is that Dumbledore uses the Choclate frog cards as information gathering devices or is the "more relyable method of communication" for the order members. But some of these items, you probably have to know how to use them in order to do so. Who would have thought that the portrait images could "jump location"? Maybe there are other secrets to these items. I'd like to think so. the moving portraits have had me hooked since SS. ;) Mtwelovett From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 20:39:53 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:39:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Retrospective Harry? (slips in writing style...clues?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812203953.85382.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76750 Ffi wrote: JKR does deviate from her > usual narrative > style > > again in PS/SS, when she shows Harry's first > quidditch match from > > Hermione/Ron'Hagrid's perspective - something > that's never done > > again. So maybe it was just a first book > style-thing - or maybe it > > is a huge clue... Mandy wrote: > Also what about the first chapter of GoF 'The Riddle > House'? It's > all from Frank Bryce and Voldemorts point of view > when everything > else, up to that point and after it, has been only > what we see > through Harry's eyes? > > I always thought that was odd and very exciting when > I read it. It > gives me hope that we may learn more deeply about > other characters, > in particular the somewhat flat and two-dimensional > Malfoys. If we > continue to only see Draco (and Lucius) through > Harry's POV we will > never learn what is really going on inside their > heads and as a > result they will always be seen in such a narrow > perspective. I know > there is much more to Draco that what we've been so > far allowed to > see, but if Rowling continues in the present style > we will only get > to see more of Draco if he and Harry are forced to > deal with each > other. > Mandy > Buttercup: I guess it's traditional to write children's books from one point of view, the main character's, either in first or third person. But JKR must have felt it necessary to tell other aspects of the plot in the omniscient (all-knowing) point of view. She had to since Harry wasn't there for scenes "Ffi" and Mandy mentioned above. They say that sticking to one point of view throughout the book makes a stronger story. But I think JKR's occasional omniscient point of view was essential for the story. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Tue Aug 12 20:48:03 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:48:03 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry - vampire clue?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > There's been lots of commentary on Snape's grey underwear, but I > noticed that in GoF chapter 25, Snape is walking about the castle at > night in a long grey nightshirt. Now, whatever his circumstances as > a boy, he can't now be too poor to afford new clothes. Nor can I > believe that he never washes his clothes, if that's even his > responsibility. I imagine the House Elves take care of the laundry, > anyway. But there's more than one reason for white things to turn > grey, besides being unwashed. If his nightgown is old, it would > very likely turn grey after much washing, especially if some of his > regular black clothes got into the pile. And everyone knows that > old clothes are the most comfortable, so maybe Snape is just one of > those people who don't care too much about what their things look > like, as long as they're nice and soft and comfy. > > Wanda In many vampire legends, vampires were buried in their black or GREY shrouds, or they wore shabby shrouds underneath their cloaks. I know lots of HP fans don't think Snape is a vampire, but I think that JKR has hinted too often at it. I have a theory that Snape is a half- vampire (one of his parents was one, or he has been bitten only once or twice...) I think the reference to Snape's grey drawers (during the OOP pensieve scene) could be a clue that he was wearing shrouds or shroud-like clothing underneath his cloak because those were the only clothes provided to him by his parents. It may sound silly, but I don't think it is as far-fetched as other theories I have read! Brooke From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 12 21:07:19 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:07:19 -0000 Subject: Retrospective Harry? (slips in writing style...clues?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76752 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Also what about the first chapter of GoF 'The Riddle House'? It's > all from Frank Bryce and Voldemorts point of view when everything > else, up to that point and after it, has been only what we see > through Harry's eyes? > Ariadne: I thought that scene was supposed to be a dream Harry was having, so the scene inside the house was still from his perspective. It's true we hear Frank Bryce's thoughts, but could that be Harry's connection with Voldemort and Voldemort is actually the one who knows what Frank is thinking? It seems now like a precursor to the snake dream/Mr. Weasley in OOTP, where Harry is actually the snake. Only in the GOF dream he's an observer, b/c he sees Voldemort when the chair is turned around by Wormtail. From erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 21:08:32 2003 From: erisedstraeh2002 at yahoo.com (Phyllis) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:08:32 -0000 Subject: Pensieve question... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76753 I originally wrote: > It strikes me as strange that Dumbledore would loan out his > Pensieve to another person, since the Pensieve holds a lot of > important information (not the least of which is the exact wording > of Trelawney's first genuine prediction). Perhaps this is yet > another indication of how strongly he trusts Snape? and bibphile responded: > I'n not saying it's the same Pensieve. But if it is, Dumbledore > could have just taken the memories out before he loaned it to Snape. Me again: Ah, good point. I went back and re-read the passage when Dumbledore uses the Pensieve to re-enact Trelawney's prediction for Harry's benefit, and Dumbledore does extract this memory and place it in the Pensieve first. So his thoughts aren't always in there, and he most definitely could have taken them out before he loaned it to Snape. This makes it much more believable that Snape borrowed the Pensieve from Dumbledore. And it also lets me go back to my belief that Snape is Ever-so-Evil, which I was starting to doubt! ~Phyllis From yellows at aol.com Tue Aug 12 21:09:01 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:09:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paintings vs. Photos Message-ID: <5D16C522.2C64589B.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76754 I'm sorry, but my OoP is loaned out and I can't look at it. Maybe someone can look this up for me: Don't a few of the Order members in Moody's photograph make sounds when he pushes them to the side? Brief Chronicles From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Tue Aug 12 21:25:11 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:25:11 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frantyck" > wrote: > > So -- even if Snape isn't described as having a personal pong, it > > doesn't signify much. Neither does Hagrid smell, and he really > should. > > > > True. But I still think it would be in Harry's thoughts if Snaped > smelled bad evn if he didn't "mention" it with Hagrid. > > It could be sort of like the "fat" thing. In the first four books > Harry thought about Dudley being fat just about everytime Dudley was > mentioned, but only once in passing about Mrs. Weasley's weight. > > Besieds, I'm 99% sure Ron would be making comments about it if Snape > stank. > > bibphile I remember us (me and my schoolmates) being utterly scathing about any shortcomings teachers had. A friend of mine a few years ago, was training as a mature student to be a teacher. He went on his first teaching practice and after a week of teaching a bunch of 15 year old boys he thought he was doing ok. Then he overhears them imitating the way he talked - he had no idea that he kept saying "Don't be cheeky" all the time - but apparently he did. Kids of that age are cruelly observant and don't miss a trick - nor will they possibly not pick up an available stick to beat the teacher with - especially if they dislike them. The kids at Hogwarts dislike Snape intensely - that's a given and yet not a word about body odour - I don't think it can be there to be commented on is all. Mind you, the Hogwarts kids are a model of politeness compared the real youth of today. June From o_caipora at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 21:26:47 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:26:47 -0000 Subject: Paintings vs. Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76756 mtwelovett asked: > There certainly seems to be a difference in photos and paintings. We > haven't seen anyone talking to the Daily Prophet photos, or ones in > Witch Weekly, or the Quibbler... (or is that what Luna is doing???) Note also that presumably newspaper photos are regularly destroyed, unless all wizarding houses are filled with stacks of old paper. If they possessed the same degree of self-awareness and volition of portraits, then why would anyone pose for the camera? > My pet theory is that Dumbledore uses the Chocolate frog cards as > information gathering devices or is the "more reliable method of > communication" for the order members. I have a less interesting theory. P.G. Wodehouse on being knighted said that he had no ambitions left, now that he was knighted and there was a waxwork of him in Madame Tussard's. I think that Dumbledore's comment on not being taken off Chocolate Frog cards is merely Rowling's reuse of a bon mot, one with which she is certainly familiar, and which pithily expresses the value placed on honors by a man who is above pretension. In computer terms, I'd say that a wizard photo is something a little more sophistcated than an animated GIF in that it responds in a limited way to limited stimuli, while a portrait is like an AI program, but far beyond anything now existing. As to the nature of "portrait space", it confuses me but I assume it's been explained here before. - Caipora From rayheuer3 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 21:28:17 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 17:28:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paintings vs. Photos Message-ID: <1ef.ee1b388.2c6ab5f1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76757 yellows at aol.com writes: > I'm sorry, but my OoP is loaned out and I can't look at it. Maybe someone > can look this up for me: Don't a few of the Order members in Moody's > photograph make sounds when he pushes them to the side? Moody speaks to them, which would seem to indicate that photo images can "hear", but none of them make any sounds that are mentioned in the book. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mbush at lainc.com Tue Aug 12 21:40:45 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:40:45 -0000 Subject: Lily & Runes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76758 Since there is all this speculation on Petunia and Lily and their family history, I'd like to pose another thought to the group that has had me thinking over the last several days. In post #75851 Erica speculated that perhaps Harry's scar was part of the protectionLily placed on him. She suggests that it is the rune Eiwaz (sometimes spelled (Eihwaz) (which Hermione mentions in OoP and says it means Defense/protection...she gets it confused with Ehwaz on her OWL)additionally, it's tree is the Yew which is what Lord Thingy's wand ismade of.... (there is a rune link at http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/ ) she (Erica) figures that when Voldermort attacks Harry the rune protects and scars him. (this might be an explanation of the shape of the scar anyway, but this rune isn't the most lightening bolt like rune, but could possibly be described as such) What I found terribly intriguing though, in addition to this is the Rune that represents "L" (Laguz) has as some of it's qualities: female, the color Green, and it's tree is stated as Osier which is a WILLOW. Lily (starts with "L") has a willow wand and her eyes are "importantly" green. Her wand according to Olivander is good for Chams, and since the wand chooses the wizard we can perhaps imply from this that Lily was strong in charmwork... and so *could* be a student of Ancient Runes (in my mind, I find I think of her as something like Hermione) But that is as far as I've gotten I think there may be something to this, but know little about runes and how they function. Or where to further take this... anyone else have any thoughts? (I posted this at TLC's discussion too) Mtwelovett From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 21:53:19 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 14:53:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812215319.43398.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76759 But James wasn't hailed as being good at Defense, even though he was Headboy. He was hailed for Transfigurations and Quiddich. I would also think they would decide against placing a just graduated student as a full time teacher. He was have no respect from the upperclassmen, even if he was the famed James Potter. Second, he was able to disappear easily, which he would not have been able to do as a teacher. Third, many characters many times say Hogwarts is the safest place in the world. Why would James and Lily go out of Hogwarts into hiding if they were already safe? This goes with what I thought about Harry becoming a teacher. I think he will, but not until many, close to seven, years pass after he graduates. --- "Kelly M." wrote: > > > > Joe asked: > > > My favorite theory regarding this is that James > was the DADA > > > professor at Hogwarts. > > I never really thought about James being the DADA > teacher, but it > could make sense. Maybe that is another reason > Snape wants > the position so badly. He hated James and what he > accomplished, so he wants to prove that he could be > a better > teacher in the DADA position? Just a thought. > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From andie at knownet.net Tue Aug 12 21:53:12 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:53:12 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! (bring it on) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: > > > Why? There is even a large faction that seem to think that Voldy > will > > be defeated but not killed. Again, why? I have to interject here that the prophecy does not say kill; yes, most of us assume this is the meaning, including Dumbledore and even Harry. However, the word that is used in the prophecy is "vanquish." To vanquish does not mean to kill, but simply to defeat in battle or to overcome. You can paste this link if you'd like to read all of the definitions: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vanquish Therefore, while it is still possible that Voldemort will be killed, it is also not necessary according to the prophecy, and we all know how much JK likes to play on words. :) grindieloe :) From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 21:57:18 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:57:18 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: <67A3B8D0-CCD2-11D7-B827-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: < Message-ID: <001d01c3611e$70d75820$8ef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 76762 > > > > > > I noticed that Regulus Black, Sirius' kid brother > > and murdered > > > DE, had a date of death "fifteen years previously" > > (p.112). And > > > Stubby Boardman "retired from public life after > > being struck in > > > the ear by a turnip...nearly fifteen years ago" > > (p192). > > > > acoteucla wrote: > > Good catch! I don't know if it's been discussed > > before, but I > > personally like this theory. > > Buttercup: > > Possibly...that's why his candle light dinner date > thought Stubby was Sirius. They're brothers and they > look alike. > > If Stubby isn't Regulus, I still think he'll come into > play in one or both of the last two books. Why else > would Sirius have mentioned him to Harry? Harry will > probably meet Regulus, who may look like Sirius, and > get all excited thinking it's his godfather, only to > be disappointed again. > > Marmelade Mom: > > Yes! I think so too. On further musing, I think Regulus was > ALWAYS Stubby Boardman, because all he wanted was to be a > rock'n'roll star. Mama Black would NOT have approved, so he > hid it from his family, and joined the DE to please his impossible > Mom. He was aboutu as good a rock singer as he was a DE, > though, if the turnip thrown at him is any indication. But, like > Sirius, he's drop dead handsome (ahem), so he has lots of > candlelight dinners with lots of addled fans. > > If he shows up in Books 6/7, I think he will be a kind of comic > relief -- an anti-Serius--or unserious--kind of character: the ne'er > do well kid brother. He will, however, look a lot like Sirius > anyway...giving Harry some turns. Harry may even feel some > responsibility for Reg, and this may help pull him out of his funk. > Also, it would be interesting to see how Crookshanks, who > adored Sirius, reacts to Reg. Will he stare at him insolently, with > a half-eaten garden snake protruding from his mouth? > > Oh, what fun. > > Marmelade Mom > >Me: This would be funny and also could bring some more light into Harry's life. It gets even more plausible when you look at a star map. Regulus is, als I already posted, the heart of the little lion (and not snake!!!). Stars and their maening are not out of discussion in the Black family. Sirius is the dog star! So Regulus could be some kind of little lion: not tough enough to be the open rebel as his older brother was but still knows exactly what's right or wrong. This also could enlight some new aspects on the task he had to do as a DE and refused to do... Yours Finchen From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 22:23:13 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:23:13 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldron, real location? I Know! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nineve_laguna" > wrote: > > I remember, even though cannot say exactly which page, in PS/SS that > > Hagrid and Harry get the train to LONDON BRIDGE, which is south of > > the river, full of little scruffy non-descriptive shops, back > alleys > > hidden to public view, and with a pub near it on a main road with > > loads of passing-by-fast-but-not-stopping-here trafic. > > London Bridge is a most weird place, and it fits in with JKR's > > description. *****************> > > Geoff: > I see no reference to London Bridge in the book. "I > don't know how the Muggles manage without magic", he said as they > climbed a broken-down escalator which led up to a bustling road lined > with shops." > > Geoff: > That isn't London Bridge. The exits from the Tube bring you into the > main railway station concourse which is a bus station. London Bridge > is very much a commercial district and there are no major shopping > roads immediately by the station. A few line further on... > "They passed book shops and music stores, hamburger bars and > cinemas..." > > I wonder if you are confusing this with the film? I said yesterday > that I think I read somewhere that the film location for the Leaky > Cauldron was the Borough Market area which /is/ in the area where the > main railway line to Cannon Street diverges from the Charing Cross- > London Bridge line. > > Geoff **************** I am most definitely NOT confusing it with the film. If you had known London Bridge seven years ago, and very well, as I did then, you would find that The Leaky Cauldron did indeed have a South London feel, and that the shops and businesses around fit in the description. Anyway, it doesn't exist, and JKR is not describing a place in London, but creating one. Nineve. From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 22:47:12 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:47:12 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry - vampire clue?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76764 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" > wrote: > > There's been lots of commentary on Snape's grey underwear, but I > > noticed that in GoF chapter 25, Snape is walking about the castle > at > > night in a long grey nightshirt. Now, whatever his circumstances > as > > a boy, he can't now be too poor to afford new clothes. Nor can I > > believe that he never washes his clothes, if that's even his > > responsibility. I imagine the House Elves take care of the > laundry, > > anyway. But there's more than one reason for white things to turn > > grey, besides being unwashed. If his nightgown is old, it would > > very likely turn grey after much washing, especially if some of his > > regular black clothes got into the pile. And everyone knows that > > old clothes are the most comfortable, so maybe Snape is just one of > > those people who don't care too much about what their things look > > like, as long as they're nice and soft and comfy. > > > > Wanda > > > In many vampire legends, vampires were buried in their black or GREY > shrouds, or they wore shabby shrouds underneath their cloaks. I know > lots of HP fans don't think Snape is a vampire, but I think that JKR > has hinted too often at it. I have a theory that Snape is a half- > vampire (one of his parents was one, or he has been bitten only once > or twice...) I think the reference to Snape's grey drawers (during > the OOP pensieve scene) could be a clue that he was wearing shrouds > or shroud-like clothing underneath his cloak because those were the > only clothes provided to him by his parents. It may sound silly, but > I don't think it is as far-fetched as other theories I have read! > > Brooke Part of being a vampire means you can't reproduce. So he cant be half, and its very unlikely that he is, remember he was outside DURING THE DAYTIME in the penceive (i dont know if thats how you spell it or not :-P) Garrett From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 22:52:59 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:52:59 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry - vampire clue?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76765 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: Part of being a vampire means you can't reproduce. So he cant be > half, and its very unlikely that he is, remember he was outside > DURING THE DAYTIME in the penceive (i dont know if thats how you > spell it or not :-P) > Garrett It may have been daytime - BUT "...Snape had settled himself on the grass in the dense SHADOW of a clump of bushes." Inge From sydpad at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 22:53:28 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:53:28 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldron, real location? I Know! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76766 Nineve wrote: > I am most definitely NOT confusing it with the film. If you had known > London Bridge seven years ago, and very well, as I did then, you > would find that The Leaky Cauldron did indeed have a South London > feel, and that the shops and businesses around fit in the > description. Anyway, it doesn't exist, and JKR is not describing a > place in London, but creating one. > Nineve. I thought from PoA that the Leaky Cauldron was either on or directly off of Charing Cross. It's identified by name: "BANG! They were thundering along Charing Cross road. Harry sat up and watched buildings and benches squeezing themselves out of the Night Bus' way. The sky was getting a little lighter. He would lie low for a couple of hours, go toGringotts the moment it opened, then set off-- where, he didn't know. Ern slammed on the brakes and the Knight Bus skidded to a halt in fornt of a small and shabby-looking pub, the Leaky Cauldron..." This COULD be interepreted as going along Charing Cross, then past it to some other location, but if they'd crossed the river I think it would have been mentioned. In any case, there are definitely no cinemas around London Bridge, while if you got off the tube at Leiscter Square you'd pass several. Ditto the music and book stores for which Charing Cross is famous. I agree with you that Southwark would be a way more evocative location for the Leaky Cauldron than Charing Cross though! I love that part of the South Bank. Sydney From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 22:57:23 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:57:23 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry - vampire clue?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76767 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" > wrote: > Part of being a vampire means you can't reproduce. So he cant be > > half, and its very unlikely that he is, remember he was outside > > DURING THE DAYTIME in the penceive (i dont know if thats how you > > spell it or not :-P) > > Garrett > > It may have been daytime - BUT > "...Snape had settled himself on the grass in the dense SHADOW of a > clump of bushes." > > Inge But what about walking too the shadow?????? and then having to go back up to the castle?????????? Garrett From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 23:16:44 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:16:44 -0000 Subject: Lily & Runes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76768 > Since there is all this speculation on Petunia and Lily and their > family history, I'd like to pose another thought to the group that has > had me thinking over the last several days. In post #75851 Erica > speculated that perhaps Harry's scar was part of the protectionLily > placed on him. She suggests that it is the rune Eiwaz (sometimes > spelled (Eihwaz) (which Hermione mentions in OoP and says it means > Defense/protection...she gets it confused with Ehwaz on her > OWL)additionally, it's tree is the Yew which is what Lord Thingy's > wand ismade of.... (there is a rune link at > http://www.netlabs.net/hp/skatty/runes/ ) she (Erica) figures that > > Mtwelovett I looked at the Link above and I persomaly think that the victory symbile (i dont know how to spell this word but hopefully you now what im talking about) looks just like HP scar, what do y'all think? (I think the syimble is callad sumilu) Garrett P.S. I personaly think this theroy is very valid From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 23:17:14 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Writing insturments - why not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812231714.63456.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76769 Don't get me wrong, I love the whole HP series. I wonder why it is that the WW is so big on quills and bottles of ink, though? Leaving aside the "magic" aspects of certain inks, quills, and etc., really you might think the muggle borns would have become rather used to conventional modern writing instruments like pencils and pens. Even fountain pens seem more practical than dipping a feather into ink bottles. I half expected Hermione to start tutting about it, but it's just the way it's done, I suppose. Are pens considered muggle artifacts? struggling to think of new threads . . . owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 23:29:55 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030812232955.19967.qmail@web20704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76770 scoutmom21113 wrote: "Steve" wrote: > Also, notice in the latest book, now that Harry knows he must ultimately kill Voldemort or be killed by him I would prefer to think that Harry will vanquish and destroy Voldemort, not with a show of force, but with an unexpected act of mercy. The trouble is, I just don't know how JKR could ever maneuver Voldemort into a state of mind where that act of mercy would have that enormous impact on him. Laura also said: I agree with bboy that Harry is going to agonize over what he has to do...I like the idea of defeating by mercy and hope JKR will do some more of *her* magic to make it happen. Ravenclaw Bookworm commented: Laura makes a good point. However...Harry ...would probably have a very difficult time dealing with (taking a life) even if it was to save his life or the lives of others. --------------------- We've already glimpsed Harry's reactions under such circumstances. He's in a rage to kill Sirius when he first encounters him and believes he's the man who betrayed his parents. He holds off. When proof of Pettigrew's guilt is set forth, and he's about to witness Pettigrew's execution by Lupin and Sirius, he actually intervenes to stop it. Voldemort, however, is the exception to the mercy rule, and I think Harry's being braced to face a showdown. This is where Pettigrew, perhaps inadvertently, comes in to somehow act as the agent that "kills" voldy. It's a spin on Tolkein's "Gollum," but it will be a uniquely JKR variant. owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kai_z at operamail.com Tue Aug 12 23:31:35 2003 From: kai_z at operamail.com (mkaliz) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:31:35 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry - vampire clue?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76771 Inge and Garrett were discussing the possibility (or lack thereof) of Snape being a vampire or part-vampire... Though I'm not yet totally sold on the idea (but I can be convinced!) there is certainly enough vampire lore about dhampirs who are the offspring of vampires (usually the widow of a newly turned male vampire), according to some Eastern European legends. The lore seems to indicate that dhampirs, though they had some abilities in common to vampires (i.e. super-human strength, ability to transform in to animal shapes, sprout fangs) they were also able to blend in with regular humans, roam around in sunlight, eat/drink food other than blood, etc. According to lore, these dhampirs were often vampire slayers. I think you might be able to make a case for Snape being a dhampir given what we've seen/heard about him in canon. Certainly JKR seems to drop a lot of hints in that kind of direction, whether she's just being metaphorical or not. ::g:: --kai From dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 12 23:47:20 2003 From: dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca (Lee) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:47:20 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers In-Reply-To: <20030812232955.19967.qmail@web20704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76772 *spoilers ahead* *snip* > scoutmom21113 wrote: > "Steve" wrote: > > Also, notice in the latest book, now that Harry knows he must ultimately kill Voldemort or be killed by him I would prefer to think that Harry will vanquish and destroy Voldemort, not with a show of force, but with an unexpected act of mercy. The trouble is, I just don't know how JKR could ever maneuver Voldemort into a state of mind where that act of mercy > would have that enormous impact on him. > This quote brought to mind the scene in the MoM (Ministry of Magic) The door, that Dumbledor said is so full of "something" that Voldemort has nothing of, despises in fact. Would Mercy be a facet of whatever is behind that door? If so, than the act of Mercy itself could be killing to Voldemort. Kindness, rather than fear, love rather than hate, might actually destroy "Voldemort" and leave, perhaps, a very confused Tom Riddle, or who knows what else. Is mercy perhaps what is at the MoM? I think that might be a big part of it. Voldemort shows very little, to no mercy to even his followers, and certainly no kindness or love. Call me a sap, but I think that has something to do with it, in the small bit at least. And, doesn't Snape and Harry have that sort of wizard bond now? Snape tried to save Harry in SS/PS, so does that mean Harry owe's something to Snape? (I don't know if the broomstick scene was a failed attempt at saving Harry or a successful one, but it is important, nonetheless) Lee (getting ideas from fanfics for all this. Gah, I'm bad! XD) From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 23:51:45 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:51:45 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Writing insturments - why not? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76773 Owlery2003: Don't get me wrong, I love the whole HP series. I wonder why it is that the WW is so big on quills and bottles of ink, though? Leaving aside the "magic" aspects of certain inks, quills, and etc., really you might think the muggle borns would have become rather used to conventional modern writing instruments like pencils and pens. Even fountain pens seem more practical than dipping a feather into ink bottles. I half expected Hermione to start tutting about it, but it's just the way it's done, I suppose. Are pens considered muggle artifacts? Dan: I suppose it's the same reason that wizards wear robes. In my opinion, it's a part of wizard culture, a part of the Good Old Days that they're not willing to let go of. Surely pens and pencils are much faster and more efficient (no ink dipping, they don't break as easily, etc), so I think this is just one of the many eccentricities of the wizarding world. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lziner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 00:26:49 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:26:49 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry - vampire clue?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mkaliz" wrote: > Inge and Garrett were discussing the possibility (or lack thereof) of > Snape being a vampire or part-vampire... > > Though I'm not yet totally sold on the idea (but I can be convinced!) > there is certainly enough vampire lore about dhampirs who are the > offspring of vampires (usually the widow of a newly turned male > vampire), according to some Eastern European legends. > > The lore seems to indicate that dhampirs, though they had some > abilities in common to vampires (i.e. super-human strength, ability to > transform in to animal shapes, sprout fangs) they were also able to > blend in with regular humans, roam around in sunlight, eat/drink food > other than blood, etc. According to lore, these dhampirs were often > vampire slayers. > > I think you might be able to make a case for Snape being a dhampir > given what we've seen/heard about him in canon. Certainly JKR seems to > drop a lot of hints in that kind of direction, whether she's just > being metaphorical or not. ::g:: > > --kai One big hint is in PoA where Lupin (sorry the book is not with me) mentions his Vampire essay in front of Snape. It's the maurader's map bit. A little payback perhaps for the werewolf essay he assigned. Maybe some Vampire blood in Snape is a very good theory! However, paybacks seem uncharacteristic for Lupin. When will book six come out - ugh! Lz From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 00:53:12 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:53:12 -0000 Subject: Wizards, physics masters? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76775 <<<"severusbook4" wrote:...So as my inmagination ran wild, I came up with these physic traits that could be applied to magic situations...Is this a feasible explanation of why the magical are able to do what they do scientifically speaking? They are endowed with a gene or protein strand that enables them to interact on a much closer relationship with the very atoms that make everything?...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Hear, hear. This is the justification for my theory that 'magic' is what you call technology before it has been codified, before anybody has figured out how to make money off of it. The problem with Potterverse magic is that it's been co-opted by the Luddites. As readily-available mass-market alternatives become available, sensible modern folk drop the old ways. In my young days, things like ballpoint pens, pocket calculators and electric typewriters were considered tools of Satan intended to lull good students into bad study habits. Now, even religious schools teach computer science. --JDR From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 13 01:22:26 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:22:26 -0000 Subject: Pride and Prejudice (and more Jane Austen!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > I hesitate to call Snape Mr Darcy ::blinks in vague horror:: but > Snape starts off with Lily in pretty much the same way Darcy starts > off with Elizabeth in the Assembly Rooms. He insults her. He's > prejudiced against her because of her background. Again, it's anti- > Wickham, not Wickham (who is a flatterer). Snape/Lily does follow the Darcy/Elizabeth pattern, but, interestingly enough, so does the Snape/Harry relationship. If we take it out of the romantic sphere, their interaction follows a similar path, with Snape immediately categorizing and dismissing Harry, and Harry reacting with repulsion and dislike. Their relationship is the more important one, as we can trace it through all the books so far. We haven't yet had any breakdown on Snape's side, but Harry has had his convictions shaken by his glimpse into the Pensieve, just as Elizabeth had to re-evaluate her opinion of Wickham and Darcy after reading the explanatory letter Darcy sent her. It's also obvious to the reader that these two characters belong on the same side, and that their hostility is hampering both of them from accomplishing what they're capable of. But another Jane Austen parallel occurred to me while thinking this over; Mansfield Park is also a good match for HP. Harry is poor, downtrodden Fanny, who is magically whisked away from a life of drudgery and finds happiness in the big mansion far away. Of course, his life isn't perfect, but he eventually finds that he belongs at Hogwarts, despite its hardships. He even has his yearly trips back to Privet Drive, just as Fanny returns to her family at Portsmouth, just to underline how unhappy and out of place he is in his original surroundings. And as Fanny ends up being the moral center of Mansfield Park, Harry stands as the bulwark against encroaching evil at Hogwarts. And if all that fails, Mansfield Park even has the original Mrs. Norris! (Though I always thought it was a dirty trick to name even a scrawny cat after such a despicable woman.) Wanda From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 13 01:37:30 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:37:30 -0000 Subject: fading of the Order (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76777 dan wrote: > And my sense is that the DA will, in some > measure, supplant the OOP. Yes, mine too. I (along with many other listies) guessed in advance that the Order of the Phoenix would be more or less what it turned out to be - an association of anti-Voldemort wizards led by Dumbledore. Where I guessed (I hope, temporarily) wrong was that I thought it would turn out to be an organisation so flawed that the reader would be very ambivalent about the prospect of Harry joining - just as GOF leaves one ambivalent about the prospect of him being an auror. In fact it is clear (IMO) that the Order is flawed, the crucial weakness being Dumbledore's use of knowledge from which Harry suffers in OOP (the book). That Sirius, Molly and the others have no real compass for deciding how much to tell Harry is very telling, IMO, and indicates the bankruptcy of the order to act as the harbinger of Dumbledorian inclusiveness. But it's not in your face the way the lawlessness and violence of the aurors as law enforcers and peacekeepers is. David, hoping Elkins is reading this From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 13 02:22:49 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:22:49 -0000 Subject: fading of the Order (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > dan wrote: > > > And my sense is that the DA will, in some > > measure, supplant the OOP. > > Yes, mine too. > > I (along with many other listies) guessed in advance that the Order > of the Phoenix would be more or less what it turned out to be - an > association of anti-Voldemort wizards led by Dumbledore. Where I > guessed (I hope, temporarily) wrong was that I thought it would turn > out to be an organisation so flawed that the reader would be very > ambivalent about the prospect of Harry joining - just as GOF leaves > one ambivalent about the prospect of him being an auror. > > In fact it is clear (IMO) that the Order is flawed, the crucial > weakness being Dumbledore's use of knowledge from which Harry > suffers in OOP (the book). That Sirius, Molly and the others have > no real compass for deciding how much to tell Harry is very telling, > IMO, and indicates the bankruptcy of the order to act as the > harbinger of Dumbledorian inclusiveness. > Would it really be a good thing, story-wise, though, for the DA to become the main engine of the fight against Voldemort? I completely acknowledge that these are primarily kids' books, and that a kid audience might very well love it that Harry & Co. succeed where the adults have failed, but I don't think it will make for a more involving story. I've always found the adults in the HP books more interesting than the children, and to sideline them would be, in my opinion, a mistake. A reviewer of OotP in "The Spectator" compared the HP books to extended Scooby Doo adventures, and leaving it all to the students would just increase that theme. I can visualize Voldemort at the end of Book 7, snarling, "And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!" Besides, it would, I think, knock HP down a rung in the "classic literature" competition. Most really good children's literature manages to involve grownups in the story, and treats at least some of them in a sensible fashion. They maybe be fiction, but they are taking place in a recognizable world, where children are NOT always superior, don't know everything, and can't handle it all by themselves. Dumbledore, the Weasleys, Lupin, even Moody, have up until now fitted into that world quite well, in the roles of wise councillor, loving, nurturing supporters, reflective steadying influence, and hardbitten but well-meaning expert. Sirius's role was a bit more sketchy, and started to fragment in OotP, while Snape, being seen so completely from Harry's POV so far, is too nightmarish and conflicted to take a simple role like the others. But I think to shunt these adults aside because they weren't fully successful in OotP would be a mistake. The last thing I want is to see HP turn into a Renaissance Fayre version of "Spy Kids". Wanda From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 02:29:33 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Writing insturments - why not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813022933.42054.qmail@web21006.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76779 > Owlery2003 wrote: > Don't get me wrong, I love the whole HP series. I > wonder why it is that the WW is so big on quills and > bottles of ink, though? Leaving aside the "magic" > aspects of certain inks, quills, and etc., really > you might think the muggle borns would have become > rather used to conventional modern writing > instruments like pencils and pens. Even fountain > pens seem more practical than dipping a feather into > ink bottles. I half expected Hermione to start > tutting about it, but it's just the way it's done, I > suppose. Are pens considered muggle artifacts? > Buttercup: Funny you should mention this. I had the same idea just the other day. This is one area where muggles are more efficient, in writing instruments. Surely even muggle haters such as Lucius Malfoy can see this. But quills do add to the atmosphere and give this fantasy world wizard authenticity. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 02:42:26 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:42:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813024226.75030.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76780 June wrote: I remember us (me and my schoolmates) being utterly > scathing about > any shortcomings teachers had. A friend of mine a > few years ago, > was training as a mature student to be a teacher. > He went on his > first teaching practice and after a week of teaching > a bunch of 15 > year old boys he thought he was doing ok. Then he > overhears them > imitating the way he talked - he had no idea that he > kept > saying "Don't be cheeky" all the time - but > apparently he did. > > Kids of that age are cruelly observant and don't > miss a trick - nor > will they possibly not pick up an available stick to > beat the > teacher with - especially if they dislike them. The > kids at > Hogwarts dislike Snape intensely - that's a given > and yet not a word > about body odour - I don't think it can be there to > be commented on > is all. > > Mind you, the Hogwarts kids are a model of > politeness compared the > real youth of today. Buttercup: Yes, with today's youth, I've often felt bad for teachers or any adult out numbered by kid's at that age. Kid's can be very cruel, especially when their in groups. You just see the expression in their eyes and know they're thinking horrible thoughts about you and voicing them to their friends. Are Hogwart students typical British kids as far as manners go? Because I know they're a lot more polite than American kids. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 02:51:02 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:51:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paintings vs. Photos In-Reply-To: <5D16C522.2C64589B.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030813025102.90415.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76781 --- yellows at aol.com wrote: > I'm sorry, but my OoP is loaned out and I can't look > at it. Maybe someone can look this up for me: Don't > a few of the Order members in Moody's photograph > make sounds when he pushes them to the side? > Buttercup: Is this what you're talking about? "...poking the picture, and the little photographic people edged sideways, so that those who were partially obscured could move to the front." or "The little people in the photograph jostled among themselves, and those hidden right at the back appeared at the forefront of the picture." ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 03:01:48 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: BANG! You're dead! (bring it on) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813030148.91851.qmail@web21010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76782 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > > > wrote: > > > > > Why? There is even a large faction that seem to > think that Voldy > > will > > > be defeated but not killed. Again, why? > > Grindieloe wrote: > I have to interject here that the prophecy does not > say kill; yes, > most of us assume this is the meaning, including > Dumbledore and even > Harry. However, the word that is used in the > prophecy > is "vanquish." To vanquish does not mean to kill, > but simply to > defeat in battle or to overcome. > > You can paste this link if you'd like to read all of > the definitions: > http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=vanquish > > Therefore, while it is still possible that Voldemort > will be killed, > it is also not necessary according to the prophecy, > and we all know > how much JK likes to play on words. :) Buttercup: Yes, I think JKR was very careful in choosing the words for the prophecy, so that there were multiple meanings. She didn't want the writing to be on the wall. She likes to keep us guessing. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From yellows at aol.com Wed Aug 13 03:17:41 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:17:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paintings vs. Photos Message-ID: <6FE9E246.71A618EF.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76783 In a message dated 8/12/2003 10:51:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Buttercup writes: > Is this what you're talking about? "...poking the > picture, and the little photographic people edged > sideways, so that those who were partially obscured > could move to the front." or "The little people in the > photograph jostled among themselves, and those hidden > right at the back appeared at the forefront of the picture." Is that all there is? :) Well, then, nevermind. I imagined the sounds. :) I tend to do that. Send me to a cool world like Harry Potter's and I'll dream up all kinds of things. Brief Chronicles From kkearney at students.miami.edu Wed Aug 13 03:20:20 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 03:20:20 -0000 Subject: Writing insturments - why not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76784 Owlery2003 wondered: I wonder why it is that the WW is so big on quills and bottles of ink, though? Leaving aside the "magic" aspects of certain inks, quills, and etc., really you might think the muggle borns would have become rather used to conventional modern writing instruments like pencils and pens. Dan replied: ...it's a part of wizard culture, a part of the Good Old Days that they're not willing to let go of. Surely pens and pencils are much faster and more efficient (no ink dipping, they don't break as easily, etc) And Buttercup agreed: This is one area where muggles are more efficient, in writing instruments. Now me: Actually, I disagree on the efficiency issue. We can probably assume that Harry had never used a quill, fountain pen, calligraphy pen, or anything similar before he came to Hogwarts; I simply can't see the Dursleys splurging on something like that. However, he begins using his quills without problem from day one. As far as I remember, he's never complained about running out of ink, messing up a paper with blots of ink, etc. This makes me think that the quills used in the wizarding world are magically enhanced, for example, they hold more ink (enough for an entire paper rather than a few words), keep ink flowing evenly even if the user isn't careful, etc. It would also explain why everyone buys their quills rather than making their own. If this is true, then the wizarding world never switched to Bic ballpoints because they didn't need to. Why fix something that isn't broken? -Corinth From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 10:12:27 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 10:12:27 -0000 Subject: Is Ron a Seer? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76785 "ajlboston" wrote: > > ... I dunno if he's a 7th son of a 7th son or not, > > but when Ron actually remembers his dreams, or comes up with fake > > predictions for homework, or even saw himself in Erised., it's > eerie how accurate they are. But here's a thought...Ron is the 6th son. Molly looks upon Harry as another son...so that would make Harry the 7th son! Interesting thought, isn't it? Donna From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 03:27:48 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Paintings vs. Photos In-Reply-To: <6FE9E246.71A618EF.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030813032748.76446.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76786 Buttercup writes:> > > Is this what you're talking about? "...poking the > > picture, and the little photographic people edged > > sideways, so that those who were partially > obscured > > could move to the front." or "The little people in > the > > photograph jostled among themselves, and those > hidden > > right at the back appeared at the forefront of the > picture." Brief Chronicles writes: > Is that all there is? :) Well, then, nevermind. I > imagined the sounds. :) I tend to do that. Send me > to a cool world like Harry Potter's and I'll dream > up all kinds of things. > Buttercup: The only other thing I can see is "A small crowd of people, some waving at him, others lifting their glasses, looked back up at him." Maybe it was another picture. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From nansense at cts.com Tue Aug 12 11:08:19 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:08:19 -0000 Subject: Moral Clues - Liars and Murderers In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76787 "Steve" wrote: > Have you noticed that every (nearly every) time Harry lies, it's > called a lie and usually includes a reflection of quilt and > self-awareness of his action on Harry's part. madeyemood: No, I hadn't. This had been lurking in my subconscious. Thanks for making the thought conscious. JKR want to constantly remind us, that Harry is > aware that he is lying. madeyemood: Good point. bboy: > Of course, common sense says Harry knows his > statement is false, madeyemood: How about the idea that knowing but not knowing can vary tremendously person to person? The ways that we see something about ourselves, and yet don't, can name it, but fail to act on it, tell ourselves something but part of us still doesn't believe it... bboy: > But he knows it in a much deeper sense; there is a > part of him that is intimately aware that what he is doing is wrong. madeyemood: Yeah, but how big a part? bboy: > In asense, when the narrative say, '...Harry lied' we are seeing a > bit of Harry conscience peaking through. > Also, notice in the latest book, now that Harry knows he must > ultimately kill Voldemort or be kill by him, and even though he is > well aware of how evil the Dark Lord is, and even knowing that he will > probably have to kill Voldemort in the defense of his own life, Harry > still calls it murder. He will have to murder or be murdered. madeye: Another good point. bboy:> > I think that is a very special insight into Harry's conscience too, > and I think it should make us realize just what a horrible burden this > Prophecy is. madeye: The way you broke that down made that come through for me. > I would prefer to think that Harry will vanquish and destroy > Voldemort, not with a show of force, but with an unexpected act of > mercy. madeye: I like the way your comments fleshed out this hypothesis bboy: >the trouble is, I just don't know how JKR could ever maneuver > Voldemort into a state of mind where that act of mercy would have that > enormous impact on him. madeye: I think it will happen in a way that's a play of forces, such as in martial arts when you allow the opponent to exhaust himself by indulging in his imbalances. (I'm trying to describe my vague intuition about how what you say in the paragraph below makes sense to me.) Perhaps JKR believes that the illness of imbalance (for ex, the inability to feel love, connection, compassion) ultimately leaves one vulnerable on the naked playing field of energetics. sheer bodacious power can go only so far (which is a distance considerable) that will ultimately be undermined, with a little luck, by the more integrated powers of good that are anchored in humane truths like it's better to love your neighbor than to zap him 'til he does your bidding. bboy: > One he other hand, if I am to maintain my > faith in Harry and the principle he appears to stand for, there has to > be some kind of passive vanquishing of Voldemort, but I don't have a > clue what it could be. > > Just a thought. madeye: Or maybe even more than one. Thanks for sharing. From happydenim at netscape.net Wed Aug 13 02:07:46 2003 From: happydenim at netscape.net (denimtoday) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 02:07:46 -0000 Subject: Writing Instruments why not? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76788 Hi Dan, I like the idea of quills in the HP series a lot! Simply because it *is* very foreign to us now. If they used pens of 'our day' it would blunt the whole effect of the 'wizarding world.' Although, I must admit that using a quill like the 'Quick Quote' one Rita uses would, likely, be the norm if they were looking to increase the speed of their writing. Hmmm, a thought just struck. Why in the age of tablet computers do we still use pens and pencils voraciously? Perhaps, because they are more affordable, disposable, and flexible? I would never buy a PDA because that's a lot of money down the drain if I every lost it. If I just lost a pen, not a problem. ;) I have a glass quill with five different colored bottles of ink. I bought it a long time ago (before Harry Potter). At least, I think that it could be considered a quill as you must dip it into the bottle of ink and it is fashioned like a spiral near the tip. I thought it was very unique and although it wasn't as convenient as a ballpoint, rollerball, etc it was fun to write with, occasionally. Since I enjoy collecting and using unique pens to write with it was 'just the ticket.' Denim From tomcats at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 12 13:05:21 2003 From: tomcats at bellsouth.net (Nick M.) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:05:21 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumenc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76789 Sue wrote: > My own question is - if this guy, Snape is so > crash hot in Occlumency, why does he need the Pensieve at all to > hide his thoughts from a mere student? Melinda: > From a teenage point of view, everything is done because of the > teen. Maybe Snape didn't use the pensieve to keep Harry from seeing > those memories - after all he left the other ones Harry did access > directly, where he was a child cowering in the corner. Maybe he > removed them to temper his own reaction to Harry. He knew what he > was doing was important, and knew he had to keep cool-headed while > working with him. Perhaps putting the memory in the pensieve keeps > him for remembering just how much he hated James. > > Of course, when he pulled Harry out, it was no longer a matter of > hating Harry for something James did - Harry violated Snapes privacy, > and in Snapes eyes is probably becoming more like his father. Hi everybody, first post here, so please don't AK me if this was already answered... Is there anything in canon which says that once you put a memory into a pensieve it is completely removed from your own memories, until you view it again (which would create a new memory, sort of like opening one box with another, smaller box inside it, and the smaller box holds the goods).. I wouldn't think, logically speaking, that you would lose all knowledge of a memory you place in the pensieve, but to think of it more like a videocopy of a memory, used for objective viewing of it... -Nick From hpgirl4life87 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 01:46:19 2003 From: hpgirl4life87 at hotmail.com (hpgirl4life87) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:46:19 -0000 Subject: Grey laundry - vampire clue?! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: > One big hint is in PoA where Lupin (sorry the book is not with me) > mentions his Vampire essay in front of Snape. It's the maurader's > map bit. A little payback perhaps for the werewolf essay he > assigned. Maybe some Vampire blood in Snape is a very good theory! > However, paybacks seem uncharacteristic for Lupin. >>> Personally I think people are reading into the grey underwear thing a bit too much. It could be possible that he just likes the color grey and he bought grey underwear. Just because they're grey doesn't mean he's poor. The vampire thing could be possible but I don't believe it but I'm not that learned in vampire lore. But if people think he's a vampire, more power to you. :-) ~Corinne~ From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Aug 13 01:23:23 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:23:23 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is Snape? References: Message-ID: <3F39930B.90100@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76791 hermys_quill wrote: (SNIP) > What could the word "reformed" > indicate? Any ideas? >>> Reformed Death Eather, of course. Jazmyn From tomcats at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 12 13:19:41 2003 From: tomcats at bellsouth.net (Nick M.) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:19:41 -0000 Subject: James' Quidditch position? (was: houses/ snape's worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76792 Mandy said: > Rowling was asked: What position did James play on the Gryffindor > Quidditch team? Was he seeker like Harry, or something different? > Her answer: James was Chaser. Something to think about: In the Snape's pensieve scene - James was showing off his extreme talents with the Snitch... it doesn't make sense to me why he would be a Chaser if he was THAT good with catching Snitches... "Nick M." From pokeypokey at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 01:17:55 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:17:55 -0000 Subject: Number of Students at Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76793 I'm just shooting off theories and questions left and right, and I apologize, but I keep thinking of more. I hope no one finds my posts annoying!..... Anyway... I might be mistaken, but I heard tell of an interview with JKR in which she said that Hogwarts had about 2,000 or so students. (Was that the right number... I really can't remember, I'm sorry) Well, whatever she said, it was much more than could have been possible at Hogwarts. We are actually able to calculate the exact number of students at Hogwarts, and it's nowhere near the thousands. If there are 5 girls and 5 boys (10 alltogether) in a year in each house, and there are 7 years, then that make 70 students per house. Now, there are 4 houses, with 70 each, so 4 x 70 is 280. There are 280 students at Hogwarts. I don't know how JKR could have said the number of students that she said (whatever it was), because it seems that in the books she knew how many students there were. In PS/SS, during Harry's first flying lesson, the book said that there were twenty brooms lying on the ground. This makes perfect sense... seeing as they had lessons with the Slytherins, that would be ten Gryffindors and ten Slytherins. Twenty. This was just something that bothered me. And I apologize if there was no such interview and that I made out JKR to not know what she was talking about!!!!! One last thing I was wondering, was who the last 2 Gryffindor girls who are in HRH's class. We have Harry, Ron, Neville, Dean, and Seamus for the boys, and Hermione, Parvati, and Lavender for the girls, but who are the other two Gryffindors girls? We have never met them! "angelberri56" From fuguewriter at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 15:26:44 2003 From: fuguewriter at yahoo.com (fuguewriter) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 15:26:44 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: <67A3B8D0-CCD2-11D7-B827-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Deaths in the series so far, 5 (not counting an unknown number of > Giants). > > Cedric, an innocent > Sirius, a plot device > Crouch Snr, misguided but anti-Voldemort > Quirrell, possessed > Bode, under an Imperius curse from Malfoy, then deranged by a security > device, then attacked by a refugee from the herbaceous border. Not > lucky, that man. > > > Kneasy > (with a gleeful cackle) Actually 7, if you count Frank Bryce and Bertha Jorkins. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 13 01:00:58 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:00:58 -0000 Subject: Paintings vs. Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76795 > mtwelovett asked: > > There certainly seems to be a difference in photos and paintings --- "o_caipora" wrote: > I think that Dumbledore's comment on not being taken off Chocolate > Frog cards is merely Rowling's reuse of a bon mot, one with which > she is certainly familiar, and which pithily expresses the value > placed on honors by a man who is above pretension. > > In computer terms, I'd say that a wizard photo is something a > little more sophistcated than an animated GIF in that it responds > in a limited way to limited stimuli, while a portrait is like an AI > program, but far beyond anything now existing. As to the nature > of "portrait space", it confuses me but I assume it's been > explained here before. >>> Paintings join in conversattions - Photos act like home videos. Harry's parents would do something more than just wave to him otherwise. So can a painting be done post-mortum to have some interaction with those wizards/witches? Could Harry commision a painting to be done of James, Lily and Sirius? (or has this been asked before?) Norbert's Mummy / aussie From mollsballs322 at aol.com Tue Aug 12 18:29:44 2003 From: mollsballs322 at aol.com (mmouse322) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 18:29:44 -0000 Subject: Retrospective Harry? (slips in writing style...clues?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Me: > Also what about the first chapter of GoF 'The Riddle House'? It's > all from Frank Bryce and Voldemorts point of view when everything > else, up to that point and after it, has been only what we see > through Harry's eyes? > > I always thought that was odd and very exciting when I read it. It > gives me hope that we may learn more deeply about other characters, > in particular the somewhat flat and two-dimensional Malfoys. If we > continue to only see Draco (and Lucius) through Harry's POV we will > never learn what is really going on inside their heads and as a > result they will always be seen in such a narrow perspective. I know > there is much more to Draco that what we've been so far allowed to > see, but if Rowling continues in the present style we will only get > to see more of Draco if he and Harry are forced to deal with each > other. > Mandy --Yes, but didn't it turn out that most of what happened in the Riddle House was part of Harry's dream? So, unless Harry starts dreaming about the Malfoys (which could happen, as his dreams have been all over the place throughout the series), I don't think we'll get to see the 'real' Draco Molly Thank you, Interuppter Jones. From pokeypokey at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 01:00:47 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:00:47 -0000 Subject: Peeves and The Bloody Baron Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76797 I really hope that JKR reveals in book 6 or 7 why Peeves listens to the Bloody Baron and no one else. I hope that the Bloody Baron's story is explained. I've been wondering about it for a while. Also- Why do the Gryffindors always have classes with the Hufflepuffs and Slytherins, but none with Ravenclaws? Maybe they do but it's just not mentioned. Ravenclaws are hardly mentioned at all in the books, actually. We only meet some Ravenclaws in OotP. "angelberri56" From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Aug 13 00:52:22 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:52:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Grey laundry - vampire clue?! References: Message-ID: <3F398BC6.2020107@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76798 lziner wrote: > One big hint is in PoA where Lupin (sorry the book is not with me) > mentions his Vampire essay in front of Snape. It's the maurader's > map bit. A little payback perhaps for the werewolf essay he > assigned. Maybe some Vampire blood in Snape is a very good theory! > However, paybacks seem uncharacteristic for Lupin. > When will book six come out - ugh! > > Lz > The vampire essay thing was likely a red herring thrown in by the author just to get the goths all stirred up thinking Lupin was aiming it at Snape somehow. I am sure Hermione would have been telling Harry and Ron that Snape was a vampire after the essay. No, she figured out Lupin, but obviously she didn't think Snape was a vampire. I don't think Snape is a vampire at all. He saw himself in the foe mirror, he walks in daylight, he bleeds and he doesn't snack on the students (no students wandering about with bite marks). Dumbledore might hire a werewolf, who is only dangerous during full moons, but vampires are dangerous every night. I'd sooner believe Percy was a vampire then Snape.. I think the grey laundry is just a sign that he was from a poor family. There's nothing to make me believe that Snape wears velvet and silk.. Its just not something I feel he would do. I see him as suffering depression, withdrawing from contact with others because he is unable to develop close relationships. This is a problem linked to depression. There is plenty of canon to support it. He was unpopular and an outcast as a student, he was a Death Eater, then turned spy for whatever reason, perhaps because he found the DEs were not 'real friends' and were only using him. He doesn't feel a part of the 'family' in the order and doesn't hang out with them any longer then it takes to make a report. He prowls the halls by night.. Depression can cause sleeplessness. He tends to not take care of his teeth and hair, more symptoms of depression. I think Severus is just a lonely, depressed, jaded, bitter man whose greatest fear may be looking over those walls he built around himself. Give him Prozac and an understanding person he can confide his problems to and he might be a nice person.. Jazmyn From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 12 20:01:01 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:01:01 -0000 Subject: Symbology: Quidditch and Liberation In-Reply-To: <20030812191941.67847.qmail@web21502.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ivan Vablatsky wrote:What has all this to do with quidditch? Well, what happens when the seeker > catches the snitch? The game ends! It's the end of the interplay of > opposites! The consciousness is at harmony. > Yes but it doesn't end the underlying problem behind Quidditch - which is to battle the opponent and score points and win the game. If the snitch is caught before any points are scored neither team wins. After it is caught, there are still two teams and they have not been destroyed. There are still two seekers and only one has the snitch. The war or action has ended the goals that underly it remain. Meaning when you open up the game again you are back at the same place you always were. You are fighting your opponent. The whole idea that the otherside is your opponent never goes away. Chess is no different. Nothing greater than fictional territory or a win has been achieved by taking the King. The only thing won is the game. All the rules are still in play. My prediction for HP is quite different. Quidditch could symbolize the opposite of what you believe - the constant and never ending divisions that tear the Wizarding World apart. (as ridiculous as I believe it is, it already has been hinted by the hat's recent comemnts about the sorting. Personally I think it silly to fear the house system.) I believe in the end there will be a destruction or melding of the WW into the muggle one. The secrecy will be gone. Only then can wizards rid themselves of that which breeds their darkness and divisions - the idea that there are good and bad ways to live. The idea they are better than muggles. And of course it will remove the ignorance of both sides. For example the hate of Mr. Riddle that bred up Tom into Lord Voldemort. Squibs like Arabella and Filch (or even Petunia whom I suspect comes from a mixed family of both muggles and witches and therefore is more properly called a muggle than a squib) could symbolize how this secrecy is both damaging and painful to both sides. Those who are denied magic cannot comfotably settle in as muggles. Just like the many who seem not to fully accept the muggle born. (or so Rowling has told us about mudbloods but rarely shown.) What you say to that? Golly Who thinks peace prizes are for people whose work actually advances peace rather than just for people think it a good idea. (and who keeps forgetting to log out her friend before posting... sorry...) From miss_america_03 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 00:50:49 2003 From: miss_america_03 at yahoo.com (miss_america_03) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:50:49 -0000 Subject: HARRY'S JOB Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76800 I, unlike many people, do NOT believe he will become an Auror. I think he has the talent but will choose instead to become Defense against the dark arts teacher. "miss_america_03" From caitybugcreations at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 20:16:57 2003 From: caitybugcreations at hotmail.com (Trish) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:16:57 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76801 > I have always wondered why Harry has not asked anyone what his > parents did for a living. I would like to hear JKR's reason for his > lack of curiousity there. Since book four, I have thought the > obvious - that the Potters were Aurors. But since everyone seems to > be so secretive about them, maybe James and/or Lily worked for the > Department of Mysteries. If one or both of them were Unspeakables, > maybe that explains why no one ever talks about J&L's careers - no > one really knows what the Unspeakables actually do. Just a thought.. > > Brookeshanks It has always bothered me that Harry does not ask ANY questions about his family! I mean, you find out your a wizard and you meet all of these people who knew your parents and you don't ask what they did for a living? Do you have any aunts or uncles who are wizards? cousins? Who were your grandparents? What happened to them? This bothers me so so much in these books. I don't think Harry is so dim as to not think about these things so why are they absent since JKR must assume they would interest the reader (even if storyline irrelevent, she does write a long book after all). I alway had this theory that all (or at least some) of Harry's answers are in "Hogwarts, A History" and that some day he is going to listen to that darn Hermione and find out something really cool about his mum (after all have you ever heard Harry tell Hermione his mum is an Evans?) I just thought it would be a cute way to say that a clue was under Harry's nose *all this time* and he never listened and just read that silly book! Trish. From pokeypokey at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 00:45:04 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:45:04 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Reading Minds Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76802 I'm sorry if this has already been said, but: How did Dumbledore know that Voldemort had possesed Ginny, at then end of CoS... when Harry stopped talking because he didn't want to say that Ginny had done all the Petrifying? I'm pretty sure it was because of Occlumency, but if someone else has an idea, please tell me. Also, in PS/SS, when Hermione and Harry go up to the North Tower to drop off Norbert, and then leave the invisibility cloak, how did Dumbledore know where it was to return it to Harry's bed? Remember, it had a note attached to it that said: "Just in case." That was most likely Dumbledore who left it. How did he know it was there? Did he just find it there by accident and then return it to Harry? "angelberri56" From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 12 20:18:38 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:18:38 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > ] Mental liberation requires discipline. That Harry does not have, > yet. Will he ever? Anybody's guess. And I'll bet my second best > cauldron against a chocolate frog that V. enters Harrys' mind > again in the next book. > Kneasy Well he has a point. I wouldn't disagree that we haven't seen Harry show a great deal of discipline. But we didn't see Harry show a great deal of magical skill in DADA either. Sure he's battled Voldemort a few times and he has a kick ass patronus, but most of it is either his untapped talent (the Imperious) or just luck (the sister wand thing). Harry's got intuition but he's never been shown to be a great strategist beyond the Patronus he's never really honed any skill - not even Occulumency. He is pretty much lucky most of the time. Book 1 he barely did anything. Hermione was the smart one and Ron the stragegist. Harry just had the Mum Gaurd on. Fawkes saved him in book 2 and he got a a sword (though he succeeded in using it). Book 3 he never showed any action because in the end he didn't need to. What we saw instead was compassion. In book 4 he cheated his way through the tournament when it was clear that Barty expected him to be able to win of his own accord. Afterall he was Harry Potter... Even after cheating Cedric nearly beat him. Really it wasn't expelleramus alone that saved him. Harry had a big helping hand from fate with that wand thing. But none of Harry's past passivity or luck with respect to fighting Voldemort kept Rowling from bodly telling us in Book 5 that Harry was just perfect to lead the kids into battle and teach them all to be soldiers against evil. Because he's Harry Potter - man of many talents. (None of which are being able to remember that the Wizarding World is concealed from the Muggle one.) What is to stop her from saying that pushing Voldemort out of his mind is a kind of mental discipline? Afterall he did succeed mildly with Snape in the end... Perhaps that will be enough. Lame I'll grant you. But I haven't your faith that the story has to have any internal logic. Afterall witches and wizards aren't good a logic. ;) So ... I have a couple of packs of chocolate frogs. I'll take that bet. I could use a decent cauldron. Mine current one's bottom is too thin. Keeps leaking my draught of peace all over the floor. Golly From coonkell at msu.edu Tue Aug 12 20:29:54 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly M.) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:29:54 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76804 > I have always wondered why Harry has not asked anyone what his > parents did for a living. I would like to hear JKR's reason for his > lack of curiousity there. Since book four, I have thought the > obvious - that the Potters were Aurors. But since everyone seems to > be so secretive about them, maybe James and/or Lily worked for the > Department of Mysteries. If one or both of them were Unspeakables, > maybe that explains why no one ever talks about J&L's careers - no > one really knows what the Unspeakables actually do. Just a thought.. > > Brookeshanks Me: I always thought that Aurors were maybe too obvious. It just seems like whatever I think is going to happen, doesn't! JKR has a great knack of doing that to readers! But, you bring up a great point! Why doesn't Harry ask about his parents? Obviously the Dursley's didn't tell Harry anything about his parents, so shouldn't he be at least a little curious? How did they leave him all that money? They were part of the Order, but was that the only reason Voldy went after them 3 times? (other than the obvious reason of Harry) From Erthena at aol.com Tue Aug 12 20:40:33 2003 From: Erthena at aol.com (werebearloony) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:40:33 -0000 Subject: FILK: Bellatrix Lestrange Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76805 To the tune of Cruella Deville from Disney's 101 Dalmatians the midi can be found at http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Trail/4269/midis.html . All thanks go to Mariner for her Delores Umbridge to the same tune (see it at http://home.att.net/~coriolan/faculty/umbridge.htm) and getting it stuck in my head for weeks! Bellatrix Lestrange, Bellatrix Lestrange She works for Lord Thingy and she is deranged She made Neville's parents go insane(g) Bellatrix, Bellatrix Lestrange Her thick-hooded eyes, her deep scary voice Ya know what I would do if I had the choice All kinds of horrid stuff could I arrange for Bellatrix, Bellatrix She might go bald if she could get the mange Bellatrix, Bellatrix Lestrange At first you think Bellartix' after Neville For that she'd deserve anything she got. But then you realize, she's after Voldy's prize That scar head kid, you guessed it Harry Pot! She killed Sirius, Made him go away If you listen to what JKR's gotta say Her coming back will herald lots of change! Bellatrix, Bellatrix Lestrange Bellatrix, Bellatrix Lestrange Bellatrix, Bellatrix Lestrange From pokeypokey at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 00:33:45 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:33:45 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and thestrals Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76806 This is just kind of an off-hand thought: The only people who can see thestrals are people who have witnessed death. We find out that Neville can see them because he saw his grandfather die, Luna can because of her mother, and Harry because of Cedric. But wait! Hagrid can see them, too! I wonder who he saw die... was it his father, perhaps? If anyone has any theories on this matter, please tell me! Thanks a lot! "angelberri56" From kalmeeeh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 20:43:22 2003 From: kalmeeeh at yahoo.com (kalmeeeh) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:43:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76807 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "frantyck" > wrote: > > So -- even if Snape isn't described as having a personal pong, it > > doesn't signify much. Neither does Hagrid smell, and he really > should. > > > > True. But I still think it would be in Harry's thoughts if Snaped > smelled bad evn if he didn't "mention" it with Hagrid. > > It could be sort of like the "fat" thing. In the first four books > Harry thought about Dudley being fat just about everytime Dudley was > mentioned, but only once in passing about Mrs. Weasley's weight. > > Besieds, I'm 99% sure Ron would be making comments about it if Snape > stank. > > bibphile You can't forget about Quirrel, all the students always mentioned the smell of Garlic aroubnd him, and they teased him for this. If Snape smelled, I think someone would have mentioned it. From redfish5 at onetel.com Tue Aug 12 20:48:53 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:48:53 -0000 Subject: Oh Rats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: > > Did anyone notice how often dead rats are mentioned in connection > > with Sirius? He eats them in GoF and feeds them to buckbeak in > > OOtP. A vicarious way of murdering Peter - perhaps? Just a > thought- > > missing snuffles. > > Lz > > Ok--wild speculation. Not only is representative of his hatered of > Peter, but some way most likely indirectly he manages to get his > revenge on Peter towards the end of the books (but for all you > Sirius fans out there, maybe this indicates that in some way he will > come back from the dead!). > > > Serena I think this is an example of good writing, to have him eating plenty of rats symbolises his hatred of peter and his agressiveness towards him, for those who recognise it, as you certainly have, it's a very good way of showing sirius's feelings(even if they were overtly clear already) Seb From HMaffioli at cox.net Tue Aug 12 20:55:40 2003 From: HMaffioli at cox.net (Heather Maffioli) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:55:40 -0700 Subject: Other Children's Lit (Re: [HPforGrownups] Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind!) References: <5.2.1.1.2.20030810155446.00a68a90@localhost> Message-ID: <005e01c36114$16d98460$6401a8c0@sd.cox.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76809 At 05:16 PM 8/9/2003 +0000, feetmadeofclay wrote: >And I would like to know if Potter is the only children's lit you >are reading. Or what books you loved as kids. And of course why... Admittedly I am a 3rd grade teacher so reading children's lit is my job, but I just re-read James and the Giant Peach, which I had not read in years, and loved it. It, as many have pointed out, has huge similarities to HP including the main character's name James Henry Trotter. If it were to have just been released (instead of on 1961) I would bet JK's crack legal team would be trying to sue Mr. Dahl. Of course it does not have nearly the epic flavor of HP but if you are looking for a quick read I am sure you would love it. Heather Maffioli (Hi I'm new!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pokeypokey at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 00:26:12 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:26:12 -0000 Subject: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76810 In the beginning of Goblet of Fire, when Harry dreamed (or rather saw) what was happening at the Riddle House that night between Frank Bryce, Voldemort, and Wormtail, and then wrote to Sirius about his scar, but left out the dream part, did anyone realize that by putting in the dream he could have maybe saved Cedric from dying, or at least stopped Voldemort from rising again? Harry didn't of course realize it at the time, but what he dreamed was not actually a dream, but a vision of what was really happening. Dumbledore had thought that Harry might feel what Voldemort was feeling, and that he was connected to Voldemort. And since Sirius was in contact with Dumbeldore, if Harry had described the dream to Sirius, Sirius would have most likely passed it on to Dumbledore. Then Dumbledore would have, I'm sure, figured Voldemort's plan out in the end... given this information from the dream. If he wouldn't have figured out the whole plan, he would have at least been suspicious and might have canceled the Triwizard Tournament, or done SOMETHING. So everytime I read the part where Harry leaves out the dream in the letter, I think, "Oooh, if he had JUST put that in..." Of course, I know that it was essential to the plot that Voldemort rose again, just so Harry can defeat him once and for all in the end (which I think will happen.) Did anyone else make this realization? "angelberri56" From pokeypokey at comcast.net Wed Aug 13 00:10:02 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:10:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sleepingblyx" wrote: > Has anyone started putting their covers up to mirrors yet? With all of the talk about Harry's wand being in the wrong hand on the > covers, it made me think that perhaps we are supposed to look at them in reverse.... >> Me: I don't think you are supposed to look at them in reverse- if you put them up to the mirror, he does have the wand in the right hand, yes- but the words are backward, and that doesn't make sense. So perhaps it was just a fluke, or maybe he is clutching the prophecy in his other hand, and we can't see it... hmmm... "angelberri56" From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 03:52:01 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 03:52:01 -0000 Subject: Number of Students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelberri56" wrote: > I'm just shooting off theories and questions left and right, and I > apologize, but I keep thinking of more. I hope no one finds my > posts annoying!..... > > Anyway... I might be mistaken, but I heard tell of an interview with > JKR in which she said that Hogwarts had about 2,000 or so > students. I've been told (several times) that JKR said there were 100 students. The information we're given in the books is very inconsitent. For example at one quidditch game we're told there are 800 people in the stands. Yet as you said, there appears to be 8-12 students per year per house. That would be 224-336 students. In PS it said there were 100 turkeys at dinner, but most of the students had gone home. How many people does it take to eat 100 turkeys? It could be exageration, but it's still a lot of food with most of the school home for the holidays. I tend to go with the low number, both because we see classes more and because of the number of teachers. Sprout seems to be the only Herbology teacher. Assuming all classes were the size of Harry's, she would have to teach 35-36 diffeent herbology classes just to handle the first through fifth years. Plus one 6th and one 7th year class. Even if each class only meet once a week 38 classes is alot. How many times does Harry attend Herbology a week anyway? The same goes for Potions. Not to mention Transfiguration and DADA, where it seems that only one house is taught at a time. You can take your pick though because the low number doesn't work with the quidditch stands. bibphile From pokeypokey at comcast.net Tue Aug 12 23:52:15 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:52:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76814 I'm sorry if this has already been said, but I checked the posts and I couldn't find any threads. I've been wondering alot about how old Dumbldore is. The Lexicon states that he is around 150 years old. I find this hard to believe. I don't think that anyone, even wizards, (and even Dumbledore) could live that long, and still be healthy enough to run a school, battle against LV, and so forth. On what pretense did the Lexicon figure Dumbedore's age? Did they just assume? It seems like they did, because I dont remember any facts supporting this information- though I could be wrong. The Chocolate Frog Card says that Dumbeldore was famous for the defeat of the dark wizard, Grindelwald, in 1945. Dumbledore could quite possibly have been 30 something when this happened-quite young. He is the most powerful wizard, afterall, what's not to say that he wasn't powerful in his youth? Who says he had to defeat him when he was much older? Besides, if you look at the conversation between Umbridge and Professor Marchbanks in OotP, chapter 31, it gives evidence that Dumbledore was exceptionally talented in his years at Hogwarts: "'No idea where he is, I suppose?" ... "None at all," said Umbridge... "But i daresay the Ministry of Magic will track him down soon enough...." "I doubt it," shouted tiny Professor Marchbanks, "not if Dumbledore doesn't want to be found! I should know.... Examined him personally in Transfiguration and Charms when he did N.E.W.T.s... Did things with a wand I'd never seen before..."' Professor Marchbanks testing Dumbedore on N.E.W.T.s also supports my theory- if she was old enough to test Dumbedore when he was at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore is supposedly 150 years old, she must be even older! To me, this is ridiculous. I dont think that anyone could live that long. Also, some people think that Dumbledore borrowed some Elixir of Life from his friend, Nicolas Flamel. But the stone was destroyed in PS/SS... and Dumbledore said that once the stone was destroyed, Nicolas and his wife would die. So if Dumbedore was borrowing some Elixir, and the stone was destroyed, then Dumbedore would have died, too. ( I also don't think that Dumbeldore borrowed enough Elixir to last him a lot more years...) If anyone knows why the Lexicon would state that Dumbledore was around 150, please tell me. I'm sorry this post skipped around a lot, but I wanted to get all my thoughts in. Thanks! "angelberri56" From fc26det at aol.com Wed Aug 13 03:51:50 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 03:51:50 -0000 Subject: Writing insturments - why not? In-Reply-To: <20030812231714.63456.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > Don't get me wrong, I love the whole HP series. I wonder why it is that the WW is so big on quills and bottles of ink, though? > > If you think about it our type pens and pencils are manufactured. Most of the items that we are told about in Harry's world are hand crafted. It seems that even the clothing stores sell hand made robes and such. Mrs. Weasley makes their sweaters (jumpers). The potions are made from potion ingredients rather than bought ready-made. Even the wands are all hand made. I think the wizard world is just a non- industrial world. Plus they use parchment which if I remember correctly is either waxy or oily paper which a ball point pen would not be able to write on. Susan From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 03:54:05 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 03:54:05 -0000 Subject: Number of Students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > I've been told (several times) that JKR said there were 100 students. > 1000. I meant 1000. Don't kill me. I'm sorry. bibphile From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 12 23:06:30 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:06:30 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy and LV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76817 Ok, first, How did LV get into Slytherine? I thought you had to be a pure blood to get into that house. Only one of LV's parents was magical. Now, we do know that the Malfoys are pureblood. I wonder what Malfoy may have on LV. He has a large amount of LV's old school things as evidenced in COS. Not only does he give Ginny the diary but he also sells some items and is fearful of the raids by the Ministry because of the other items still hidden. He is helping LV by conveniently placing the diary in Ginny's hands. He (Malfoy) had to have heard Harry shout to the death eaters about LV's heritage. Will Malfoy (if he did not know about this previously) use this information to go against LV to try to be the next Dark Lord? I cannot picture Malfoy in all his pompousness remaining that loyal to a muggleborn. How did he get so many of LV's old items? Many questions...... Susan From issyippon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 21:17:27 2003 From: issyippon at hotmail.com (aint_no_muggle) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:17:27 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76818 -----someone said --- >>>> During my first reading of Oop, I got a H/H feeling for the first time. I'm half way through my second read, and I can't figure out where I got that impression from. It must be from the end. :-) <<< I get the same impression of H/H too while reading oop. On re-reading, I realized this was because in this book there was little Ron and Herm interaction/conversation at all. However did anyone notice the x-mas perfume Ron gave Herm? That was odd and in an even odder way, gave me a little subtle R/H (which I love coming across when reading Harry Potter) From 8434793 at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 12 21:33:09 2003 From: 8434793 at bellsouth.net (greymalkin0602) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:33:09 -0000 Subject: Points to Ponder: The Fate of Voldemort Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76819 Near the end of OotP, Harry questions Nearly Headless Nick about how it is that Nick is dead and yet remains on earth at Hogwarts as a ghost. Nick replies that he remained behind as a ghost because he was afraid of death and chose to remain behind. Is this to be the fate of Voldemort at the end of Book 7? Like the once fierce Bloody Baron will he be another Sytherin ghost? From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 03:58:23 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:58:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Retrospective Harry? (slips in writing style...clues?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813035823.59930.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76820 Molly writes: > --Yes, but didn't it turn out that most of what > happened in the > Riddle House was part of Harry's dream? Buttercup: I don't think all of that first chapter in GOF was Harry's dream, just the part when Frank is killed. The rest of it, the police arresting and questioning Frank, the town's people shunning him, the neighborhood boy's teasing him, all this wasn't in Harry's dream or his POV. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 12 21:48:24 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:48:24 -0000 Subject: Final Battle In-Reply-To: <17a.1ec66a38.2c6999e1@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > Final Battle > > There has to be a final standoff between Harry and LV. > > > Pook > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Ok, but what you need to keep in mind is that the major power that Dumbledore says Harry possesses is LOVE. He also tells LV that there are worse things than death. I think that Harry will have to tackle LV with some sort of outpouring of love or affection (yuk). I cannot imagine how this will come about. You are right, they cannot use their wands against each other. So then what? Dumbledore explained to Harry that the reason LV could not possess him at the MOM is because of his overwhelming emotion over the loss of Sirius. This is a huge weapon but as I say, I cannot picture running up to LV and planting a big kiss on his cheek. Any thoughts? Susan From phoebesophia at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 22:57:09 2003 From: phoebesophia at yahoo.com (phoebesophia) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:57:09 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini (Slytherin boy) theory based on his first name. Another theoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76822 --- "neith_seshat" wrote: > > The theory: Blaise is the name of Merlin's tutor, who helped him to become the wizard he was, instead of an evil devilish wizard. > > Geoff: > > I would imagine that Zabini is a boy (as per the thread title). > > Blaise was not only Merlin's tutor but also the first name of the > > notable mathematician Blaise Pascal.... My association w/ the name Blaise comes from growing up Roman Catholic. The Feast of St. Blaise (a male) is 3 February and includes the blessing of throats. Ccandles that have been blessed are held in a "v" around one's throat and a blessing is recited. St. Blaise was martyred (sorry, I don't know how) in the fourth century. Because of St. Blaise, I've always assumed Blaise Zabini was male. In fact, I think he's the unidentified Slytherin boy in the care of magical creatures class who can see thestrals. phoebesophia From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 04:04:37 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 04:04:37 -0000 Subject: LV in Slytherin (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy and LV) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76823 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Ok, first, How did LV get into Slytherine? I thought you had to be a > pure blood to get into that house. Only one of LV's parents was > magical. > I think the standards have been relaxed since Salazar's time. After all, Godric only wanted to take "those with brade deeds to their name." I seriously doubt every 11 year-old ever sorted into Gryffindor had brave deeds to his or her name. I was also told that JKR notebook said Millicent was half-blood (but I haven't seen the pictures so I don't know). bibphile From nansense at cts.com Tue Aug 12 21:04:16 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:04:16 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76824 holly_phoenix_11: > > ...it is really hard for me to be convinced that anyone, > > even Dumbledore, would sacrifice someone's life, even for the > > greater good, especially if they trully belong to the good side... lupinwolf2001: > Hi Holly, I would think the same thing about Dumbledore but I found > the following reagarding Dumbledore just TOO incriminating... > > 1.) During the death as Sirius is falling (arcing) into the veil of > death, why is there careful mention that Dumbledore turns towards the > dais. We know he can cast spells without a wand and just moments > before we see him " Dumbledore's spell pulled him back as easily and > effortlessly as though he had hooked him with an invisible line"... > Could Dumbldore have done the same for Sirius? I think so. But > instead the veil blows as if a great wind blew Sirius through it. > Conicidence? I think not. madeyemood: very interesting observation, LW2001. you've got my attention lupinwolf2001: > 2.) Dumbldore tells Harry the following: "`There is no shame in what > you are feeling, Harry,' said Dumbledore's voice. `On the contrary the f= act that you can feel pain > like this is your greatest strength." madeyemood: one thinks, for instance, of the climactic moment in PS/SS where Vol. can't= withstand contact with Harry's skin. then, in CoS, Harry's loyalty paves the way for two instrumental weapons against the basilisk: ability to summon Fawkes in PoA, Harry's refusal to give in to his rage by killing Peter, his compas= sion, is a much greater source of power than his desire to kill, kill, kill in GoF---darn, i can't find that book for some reason, do the people come o= ut of Vol's wand who advise him, including mom and dad, is that tied into that= Love Power Thing? These ideas do seem to line up. lupinwolf2001: > So in Sirius's passing, Harry gains his greatest strength (the > ability to repel voldemort) which DD seems to think is CRUCIAL to the > epic struggle between good and evil. madeyemood: is it possible to say that emotional power is an instinctual power source t= hat needs to be liberated (released) then coaxed and disciplined? Harry's life has such a bipolar quality! from hero to abused orphan to susp= ect hero to hero again to weird kid associated with those weird dangerous people. if anything's gonna get your adrenalin going, it's quidditch, and h= e's shown that he's resistant to cultivating the calming meditative powers necessary to becoming an accomplished occlumens. lupinwolf2001: It is KEY that Harry have this > or else (by his own admission) DD would have killed a Voldemort > controlled Harry: "`Voldemort's aim in possessing you, as he > demonstrated tonight, would not have been my destruction. It would > have been yours. He hoped, when he possessed you briefly a short > while ago, that I would sacrifice you in the hope of killing him. madeyemood: so, like, Voldy was going for the old bait n switch? he was counting on his= powers to disentangle before the zap hit? lupinwolf2001: > WHAT DID > I CARE IF NUMBERS OF NAMELESS and FACELESS PEOPLE AND CREATURES WERE > SLAUGHTERED IN THE VAUGE FUTURE, if in the here and now you were > alive, and well, and happy? I never dreamed that I would have such a > person on my hands. madeyemood: but sirius had both name and face, both of which mean a great deal to DD lupinwolf2001: > I believe wholeheartedly that DD was responsible for Sirius's death. > Done for the greater good to ensure that Harry recieved his greatest > weapon. you certainly have made me wanna read the passage for the millionth time. thanks, lw! madeyemood From acoteucla at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 04:12:44 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 04:12:44 -0000 Subject: Final Battle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76825 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > > Final Battle > > > > There has to be a final standoff between Harry and LV. > > > > > > Pook > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > Ok, but what you need to keep in mind is that the major power that > Dumbledore says Harry possesses is LOVE. He also tells LV that there > are worse things than death. I think that Harry will have to tackle > LV with some sort of outpouring of love or affection (yuk). I cannot > imagine how this will come about. You are right, they cannot use > their wands against each other. So then what? Dumbledore explained > to Harry that the reason LV could not possess him at the MOM is > because of his overwhelming emotion over the loss of Sirius. This is > a huge weapon but as I say, I cannot picture running up to LV and > planting a big kiss on his cheek. > Any thoughts? > Susan I agree that Harry will destroy Voldemort through love, and not anger. My best theory as to how that will work goes as follows: Harry will be facing LV, and Peter will be there as well. Harry will perform some act of mercy/pity/love for Peter, who will then make good on his life-debt by renouncing his loyalty to LV. Since the ingredients in LV's revival ceremony involved "flesh of the loyal servant", the fact that his "loyal" servant switches loyalties to the "enemy" of said ceremony will cause the entire spell to backfire, destroying LV permanently. Phew! From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 04:15:20 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Writing Instruments why not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813041520.34323.qmail@web20713.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76826 denimtoday wrote: Denim commented: I like the idea of quills in the HP series a lot! Simply because it *is* very foreign to us now. If they used pens of 'our day' it would blunt the whole effect of the 'wizarding world.' Although, I must admit that using a quill like the 'Quick Quote' one Rita uses would, likely, be the norm if they were looking to increase the speed of their writing. Hmmm, a thought just struck. Why in the age of tablet computers do we still use pens and pencils voraciously? I have a glass quill with five different colored bottles of ink. I bought it a long time ago (before Harry Potter). At least, I think that it could be considered a quill as you must dip it into the bottle of ink and it is fashioned like a spiral near the tip. I thought it was very unique and although it wasn't as convenient as a ballpoint, rollerball, etc it was fun to write with, occasionally. Since I enjoy collecting and using unique pens to write with it was 'just the ticket.' --------------- I'm with you all the way on the enjoyability factor of writing with "old style" instruments. I have a PDA too, but I still use my cheap-o Parker fountain pen every day (though the cartridges are getting harder to find). Just thinking that fountain pens (forget about the dreaded ball points - I can just hear Arthur now - "those muggles, ingenious, really!") would seem more practical for students, particularly those from muggle backgrounds. The post regarding WW hand crafting many items seems right on target. Seems most don't even balk at the WW throwbacks, though (and that's OK!). owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From acoteucla at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 04:17:45 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 04:17:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Reading Minds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelberri56" wrote: > I'm sorry if this has already been said, but: > > How did Dumbledore know that Voldemort had possesed Ginny, > at then end of CoS... when Harry stopped talking because he > didn't want to say that Ginny had done all the Petrifying? I'm pretty > sure it was because of Occlumency, but if someone else has an > idea, please tell me. > > Also, in PS/SS, when Hermione and Harry go up to the North > Tower to drop off Norbert, and then leave the invisibility cloak, > how did Dumbledore know where it was to return it to Harry's > bed? Remember, it had a note attached to it that said: "Just in > case." That was most likely Dumbledore who left it. How did he > know it was there? Did he just find it there by accident and then > return it to Harry? > > "angelberri56" Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry "closer than he realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. The best explanation to how he knows so much is that he was there when the incidents happened. I personally favor the idea that Dumbledore is (yet another) unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we see during Harry's transfiguration OWL. From acoteucla at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 04:19:22 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 04:19:22 -0000 Subject: HARRY'S JOB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76828 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > I, unlike many people, do NOT believe he will become an Auror. I > think he has the talent but will choose instead to become Defense > against the dark arts teacher. > > "miss_america_03" I used to like this theory as well. Unfortunately, JKR has stated in an interview that Harry will NOT become a Hogwarts teacher. I'm hoping Neville gets the DADA position. From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 12 16:25:10 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 16:25:10 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! ( no thanks) In-Reply-To: <20030812155642.66258.qmail@web21504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76829 Ivan Vablatsky wrote: > He was hereditarily burdened, a sick man. Did you know that > Hitler was possessed?..." > The author states further on that he was never again contacted > by the Gestapo. > > This to me proves that Liberation above all liberates one from > hatred, fear and ignorance. Yes... And I suppose that all this talk will lead to how we are supposed to pity and sympathize with Hitler because he was a bitter man. I'm sorry but I find that a bit hard to take. Fact is that the Christian message of loving one's neighbour is a hard pill to swallow. The New Testament if one looks at it just as a story (and of course the hundreds of stories patterned after it) makes this idea compelling. Question remains can Rowling make her story compelling? I think we won't see any thing that makes so much sense. Already she has shown a low to moderate desire of depicting the exact evils Harry and his world are experiencing. What does Voldemort want? I know what the Pharasies wanted and what Pilot wanted. I know their motivations. I know what the Temple merchants wanted. I have no idea what Voldemort or the Malfoys or Lestranges want. They are not people with feelings. Rowling relies too much on our understanding of this theme and story. We're steeped in it. She expects us to be doing all the work. Fact that she refrences it doesn't make her work profound. She has to put in more effort. Give Harry's love some form. > JK Rowling has said that she doesn't believe in ordinary magic, but > she does believe in the magic of love. Just as cheesy a statement as "Harry followed hot on his heels". I'd forgive the trite use of metaphor in everyday speech if she didn't also apply it to her novels. > but the undeniable reality of Love as a magic force more wonderful > and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the > forces of nature. And I add: than hatred, than the greatest evil. > And this is the inheritance promised to us if we succeed in going > the Path of Liberation! Sorry Hans but not every one believes what you do. It is deniable. I think very much so. Hate is very strong. But I did like the treatment in Star Wars. Frankly, your path to Liberation is IMO not the only way to seek God. Bravery is not God's only gift. Hard work and loyalty are real human strengths. The kind that can build great things. So "undeniable"? Hardly! It is up to JKR to SHOW us this rather than tell it. If she wants to postulate the theory through her characters she has to prove it will work by developing them. Until I see some development beyond the cheap refrencing to standard stock characters I'm holding onto the idea that Hitler was a very bad man. He was nasty and I'm not going to forgive his ass. He wasn't possessed by the devil, he was just mean and perhaps crazy. Golly From swmil at msn.com Wed Aug 13 04:24:32 2003 From: swmil at msn.com (whizbee2000) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 04:24:32 -0000 Subject: HARRY'S JOB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76830 "miss_america_03" wrote: > > I, unlike many people, do NOT believe he will become an Auror. I > > think he has the talent but will choose instead to become Defense > > against the dark arts teacher. "acoteucla" wrote: > I used to like this theory as well. Unfortunately, JKR has stated in an interview that Harry will NOT become a Hogwarts teacher. I'm > hoping Neville gets the DADA position. >>> I'm wondering if Harry will end up being an author and writing about his adventures. Maybe that's a lame idea, but JK could be projecting on her character a bit. Harry will write his memoirs and become famous for them in both the wizarding world and muggle world, and bring about some kind of harmony or connection between the two worlds. Just a thought. Wendi From Pottymouth65 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 04:35:17 2003 From: Pottymouth65 at aol.com (Pottymouth65 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:35:17 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid and thestrals Message-ID: <11a.26ed695e.2c6b1a05@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76831 "angelberri56" writes: > This is just kind of an off-hand thought: > > The only people who can see thestrals are people who have > witnessed death. We find out that Neville can see them because > he saw his grandfather die, Luna can because of her mother, > and Harry because of Cedric. But wait! Hagrid can see them, too! > I wonder who he saw die... was it his father, perhaps? > > If anyone has any theories on this matter, please tell me! > Thanks a lot! I may be wrong but didn't Hagrid witness the death of some giants last summer? I don't think it states that death/thestrals apply only on Hogwarts' grounds. ~Traci From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 04:43:55 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 04:43:55 -0000 Subject: Number of Students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76832 bibphile:"The information we're given in the books is very inconsitent. For example at one quidditch game we're told there are 800 people in the stands." I missed that one. Where was it? Actually, people in the stands would be one of the easier things for low number advocates to explain; the extra people are alumni/school Quidditch fans/Hogsmeade residents out for a game. Of course, this is one of the oldest debates in the fandom. The very popular 300 number has a lot of things going for it - the number of teachers, the number of students in Harry's dorm, other things - but has a lot of problems too, IMO. There's a new datum in favor of a higher number, too: in Snape's memory of his own OWL, there are over 100 tables in the Great Hall, each with a student seated in it for a test. Since the test-takers are fifth years, and we haven't heard that the fifth year was unusal in terms of numbers, then that's something over 700 students. The answer low-number advocates might give is that the wizard population declined as a result of the war in the intervening years, and that's plausible, I guess, but lacking in backup. SOME DATA FAVORING HIGHER NUMBERS OF STUDENTS: Seating for a 1,000+ persons at the Yule Ball in GoF Over 100 students (fifth years) taking OWL's in Snape's time 100+ carriages that take at least four to six students from Hogsmeade Station to the school (first years in the boats) A COUPLE OF ARGUMENTS FOR A HIGHER NUMBER OF STUDENTS If the school population is 300, and Hogwarts is *the* wizarding school for Britain, then the wizard population is very, very low, too low to sustain all the business and industry they have. Why the huge castle for 300 students? I've been in a couple of castles, and they're *huge.* Why? 300 is lower than you think. My daughters' elementary school is 466 students, and it's not big at all. True, there's no dorms and the Great Hall, aka the All Purpose Room, doesn't hold the whole student body, but still. (BTW, there's 11 elementary schools in town for a population of 55,000 people; work it out and you see the problem for wizarding society if there's only 300 students) We see more mixing of students and classes in later years. It would seem there have to be sections and subjects we aren't seeing; if not, where are all the upperclassmen spending their time? I understand the objections based on the number of teachers and students we see, and I can't answer some of them. However: we have to remind ourselves that the Harry Potter stories are not a window into the wizarding world, they're a tiny little peephole. They leave out much more than they include. That's unavoidable. From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 05:02:33 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:02:33 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76833 I'm just re-reading "Sorcerer's Stone." Hagrid explains the rise and fall of Voldemort on meeting Harry. He mentions that Lily and James were Head Boy and Girl. How can this have been if, per the later books, James was never a Prefect? Hasn't Mrs. Weasley pointed out that Prefecthood is the path to Head kidship? Sof From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 05:08:43 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:08:43 -0000 Subject: Number of Students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76834 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: bibphile:"The information we're given in the books is very > inconsitent. For example at one quidditch game we're told there are 800 people in the stands." Jim: > I missed that one. Where was it? In POA. Athe the Slyther-Gryffindor match it said that three- quarters of the stands were suppoting Gryffindore, but that there were 200 people wearing green Jim: > If the school population is 300, and Hogwarts is *the* wizarding > school for Britain, then the wizard population is very, very low, too low to sustain all the business and industry they have. > I seriously doubt anyone thought about that when they first wrote the number of students. Oh, and did anyone accout for the longer lifespan of wizards? And would 1000 student make the population big enough? If it wouldn't then it doesn't matter. Jim: > 300 is lower than you think. My daughters' elementary school is 466 students, and it's not big at all. True, there's no dorms and the Great Hall, aka the All Purpose Room, doesn't hold the whole student body, but still. > I know how few students 300 is. It suggest 42.85 stdent per year. There were 43 students in my graduating class. Frankly even 100 is extreamly low whemn you consider that Hogwarts seems to be the biggest wizarding school in Europe. > I understand the objections based on the number of teachers and > students we see, and I can't answer some of them. However: we have to remind ourselves that the Harry Potter stories are not a window into the wizarding world, they're a tiny little peephole. They leave out much more than they include. That's unavoidable. > I'm sorry. I just don't buy that. I know there are a lot of things at Hogwarts that we don't see. I admit that. But I don't think any subject (except maybe divination next year) has more than one teacher. If they did then the heads of houses would probably only teach upperclass men. I'm pretty sure Snape would rather teach only the older kids (and he seems to be an incredibly talented potions brewer, so I doubt they need anyone of his skill level to teach first years). They way I see it both numbers are unreasonably low and the more specific evidence (students and dorm we've actually looked at) points to the lower number. Of course, the number of students is like the value of a galleon. I don't see a way to reconcile the evidence so I just have to pick. bibphile From acoteucla at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 05:09:30 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:09:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76835 I came up with this theory a while ago, but I decided it didn't work because it painted Dumbledore as significantly more cold and conniving than I believed him to be. However, some recent posts have made me question just how innocent Dumbledore really is. Evidence that Dumbledore may be a noble, but heartless and conniving old man: 1 - Dumbledore manufactured the entire Shrieking Shack incident. He wanted Peter Pettigrew to owe a life-debt to Harry, and he did NOT want Sirius' name to be cleared. The original post for this theory is 39662, "The Spying Game and the Shrieking Shack". 2 - Dumbledore is directly responsible for Sirius' death. He did this because he (correctly) guessed that the emotions this death evoked in Harry would prevent LV from possessing him. The original post for this theory is 66983, "Guilty Dumbledore". I would now like to add my own addition to Dumbledore's increasing list of heartless but necessary actions: he is responsible for James & Lily's death. There has been speculation that Snape is the one who overheard the prophecy in the Hog's Head, and reported it to LV. All renditions of this theory (that I have heard) involve Snape switching sides AFTER informing LV of the prophecy. I have a different take on it. Severus Snape, die-hard death-eater, overhears the prophecy IN ITS ENTIRETY when Trelawney utters it in the Hog's Head. Lily Potter should be pregnant at this point. Snape can figure out quite easily that the Potters' child might be born around the end of July. His life-debt to James comes into play, forcing him to renounce his loyalty to LV and help Dumbledore. Dumbledore recognizes the life- debt, and thus trusts Snape's conversion. Upon Harry's birth, the two of them cook up a plan that will help bring the prophecy to fruition. Dumbledore instructs Snape to relate the prophecy to LV, but ONLY THE FIRST PART. Snape is to pretend that he was kicked out of the Hog's Head before he could hear the entire prophecy. This plan works perfectly. LV thinks that he is supposed to go kill Harry now, not knowing the dangers of doing so. Due to this mistake, 1 - LV's body is destroyed, and it takes him about 13 years to gain a permanent new one. In the mean-time, Harry has a chance to grow up. 2 - LV passes on some of his abilities to Harry. These abilities have kept Harry and his friends alive numerous times. There's just one draw-back to this neat and clever plan: Lily & James will have to die. Noble, heartless Dumbledore knows that this is well worth the price, however. Severus Snape agrees to the plan because James would want it this way (so his actions do not contradict his life-debt to James). Instead, his life-debt passes on to Harry, which is why he worked so hard to keep Harry alive in SS/PS. Thoughts? Criticisms? From o_caipora at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 05:14:40 2003 From: o_caipora at yahoo.com (o_caipora) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:14:40 -0000 Subject: Paintings vs. Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76836 "Hagrid" wrote: > Paintings join in conversattions - Photos act like home videos. > Harry's parents would do something more than just wave to him > otherwise. > > So can a painting be done post-mortum to have some interaction with > those wizards/witches? Could Harry commision a painting to be done of > James, Lily and Sirius? (or has this been asked before?) > Are there any examples of painting of living persons in the books? Can the subject talk to his portrait, or does it only get come alive once he's no longer there? Sort of like Katherine Hepburn's biography? Is Tom Riddle's diary a sort similar to a "portait in words"? Except for its vampiric abilities, it's not very dissimilar to a portrait in its ability to converse. If it's a similar spell, it show that the object captures the subject at his age and knowledge when it's created, but it's capable of learning and remembering. Where do portraits keep their brains, anyways? I suspect a post-mortem portrait would be like a any other painting from a photograph: with a certain lifeless quality. - Caipora From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 05:30:57 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:30:57 -0000 Subject: Paintings vs. Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76837 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Serena Moonsilver" wrote: > I've not seen this posted, but I'm sorry if it's been discussed: > > Why is it that painted portraits can talk but photos can't? > ...edited... > Thoughts,opinions? > > Serena bboy_mn: Here is my best guess as to the difference between a photo and a portrait. Photo - cathces the essense of the moment. Portrait - catches the essense of the person. In the photo that Colin Creevey took of Harry and Lockhart, the images in the photo are acting according to the essense of those people at that moment. Harry wanted out of the photo and Lockhart desperately wanted him in. Photos are also capable of portraying an implied 'essense of the moment'. In the news articles about Harry that were bad, the photo acted shifty and sullen. In the photos of Harry that accompanied good articles, the photos were happy, bright, and smiling. It's possible it was the same photo each time, but the 'actor essense' of the photo followed the context. So not only do photos capture the essense of the moment they portray, but they will also portray an essense that reflects the context in which they are used. This is part of the foundation for my belief that enchanted images are more like actors playing a role. (more on that later) A portrait is capable of portraying a person's essense with a much greater scope. First because the artist pours his time and talent into the portrait, and because, to complete the 'living' enchantment, a piece of the living person is added to the portrait image; finger nail, hair, piece of skin, drop of blood. So a portrait truly does contain a piece of the living person that it, as an actor, can draw on. That piece of the person is like a life DNA in that it truly contains the essense of that person, their personality, and their life; and therefore is able to project itself as a seeming extension of the original person. For more discussion of portraits in general and on my portraits as actors theory, here is a link to a recent thread- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74923 This is the beginning of the thread, my post have been re-titled- 'Re: Portraits - living and dead' 'Re: Portraits - Additional: Actors Playing a Role' Just a thought. bboy_mn From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 13 05:33:01 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:33:01 -0000 Subject: Snape's greasy hair In-Reply-To: <20030813024226.75030.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > . > > > > Mind you, the Hogwarts kids are a model of > > politeness compared the > > real youth of today. > > Buttercup: > > Yes, with today's youth, I've often felt bad for > teachers or any adult out numbered by kid's at that > age. Kid's can be very cruel, especially when their in > groups. You just see the expression in their eyes and > know they're thinking horrible thoughts about you and > voicing them to their friends. > > Are Hogwart students typical British kids as far as > manners go? Because I know they're a lot more polite > than American kids. > > ===== > Buttercup Unbelievably polite. Mind you if JKR had wanted to go for gritty realism, the book would have been so full of **** and $@*#'s! that it would have been pretty nigh incomprehensible and it certainly wouldn't be sold to children. I don't count that against the books - if I want gritty realism and lots of profanities I'll go out and read the likes of Irvine Welsh. I certainly wouldn't want my daughter reading something like that either. June > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From subrosax at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 05:34:25 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:34:25 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76839 I just did a quick re-read of GoF, and something caught my eye that I missed the first time. At Karkaroff's hearing (or whatever that was), Karkaroff gives out the names of several people that he knows to be DE's. One of the names was, of course, Snape. Then Dumbledore says something to the effect of "Snape is no longer a DE, he turned spy for us at great personal risk." Obviously Karkaroff heard this. Wouldn't he have turned around and shared that information with his fellow DE's in Azkaban? Though I don't recall Karkaroff being mentioned in OoP, it's safe to assume he's still on the loose. What if he uses his information about Snape to save himself from LV? On top of this, wasn't it kind of stupid for Dumbledore to mention the fact that Snape was a spy in front of Karkaroff? Sorry if this has all been mentioned before. (And I'm sure it must have been.) Allyson From Meliss9900 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 05:42:31 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 01:42:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76840 There was an excellent post explaining this on the Psychic Serpent yahoo group. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent/message/4629 Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ktd7 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 05:47:18 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:47:18 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Trish" wrote: > I alway had this theory that all (or at least some) of Harry's > answers are in "Hogwarts, A History" and that some day he is going to > listen to that darn Hermione and find out something really cool about > his mum (after all have you ever heard Harry tell Hermione his mum is > an Evans?) I just thought it would be a cute way to say that a clue > was under Harry's nose *all this time* and he never listened and just > read that silly book! > > Trish. I think that there will be a lot of information in the book that was at 12 Grimmauld Place, "Nature's Nobility; A Wizarding Genealogy". I think that many things may become clearer if we get to look at that book! Then again, as a frustrated genealogist, I'd give my eye teeth for a book like that with MY family in it!!! Karen From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 05:49:06 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:49:06 -0000 Subject: Reggie and Old Mother Black (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76842 Reggie and Old Mother Black (OOP, Chap. 6) To the tune of Bobby and Jackie and Jack from Sondheim's Merrily We Roll Along Sorry, no MIDI or RealAudio! Dedicated to Roxanne (fellow Sondheim fan) THE SCENE: 12 Grimmauld Place. Canonically, this scene is between Sirius and Harry only, but I needed a third voice, hence Hermione's presence. HARRY 1995 HERMIONE It's 1995 SIRIUS And man, what a bad year it's been! ALL THREE So many terrors, Such horrors it has brought, We hardly know where to begin: There's Voldy and Barty, And Cedric Diggory HERMIONE Achieving victory HARRY But now he's history SIRIUS & HERMIONE Harry keeps dreaming And Hopkirk's owl came in. HARRY: And my scar hurts again. ALL THREE Good bye then to Four Privet Drive, At least till the end of Book Five. SIRIUS (unveiling a tapestry showing the "Noble and Most Ancient House of Black") Grimmauld that we enter Is as cheerful as dementors ? Thanks to my dark Black Family "Toujours C'est Pur" . The music turns into an Irish jig HARRY: There's Reggie HERMIONE: And Old Mother Black. ALL THREE With a Sticking Charm on her back: There's Aram and Phin and Elladora HARRY: Plus Alphard HERMIONE: Narcissa SIRIUS: Andromeda HARRY: And what's-her-name ? ? HERMIONE: Pansy? HARRY: No, no, nada ? The one in the Pensieve ? HERMIONE & SIRIUS: The one in the Pensieve? HARRY: LeOdd LeWeird . SIRIUS: LeStrange. HARRY: That's it! ALL THREE The family tree goes way back, And here's the most salient fact This one was a pureblood and Slytherin That one was a pureblood and Slytherin The rest are all purebloods and Slytherins ? With half-bloods they never used tact, Not Reggie and Old Mother Black And Ella and Bella and Ari and Al and Reg and Dad and Andy and Narcy and Phin And the others all raising this terrible din Such noise! ? And the Malfoys Segue to the kitchen, where MOLLY leads her four youngest children in a vigorous clean-up campaign MOLLY AND WEASLEY CHILDREN We're changing the style of the Black House. MOLLY I'm cleaning it up for a start. GINNY & RON We're making it into a Phoenix attack house To battle the Dark Lord's Dark Arts. FRED & GEORGE Evenings of some shady deals with Mundungus And Snape making snarky reports. MOLLY I'll get old Kingsley Shacklebolt To dine with us and tackle all the Meatballs made in our food court RON: Together? MOLLY He'll lend such perfect support. FRED: Moody will show photos Of those who've decomposed RON: And Podmore reads memos all day . GINNY: .To the morphing Nymphodora? The stylish young Auror? Just don't call her by name or she'll hex you six ways! MOLLY AND WEASLEY CHILDREN We're changing the style of the Black House Begone to each boggart-ish fear MOLLY: Get rid of the Doxies ? RON: They sting a guy real bad. GEORGE (aside to FRED): But save some with toxins ? They prankish appeal have. GINNY: And soon we'll see Diggle FRED: And Lupin! RON & GEORGE: And dear Dad! WEASLEY CHILDREN (aside, from MOLLY) And later, when the coast is clear, Get out the Extendable Ears! The WEASLEY CHILDREN dissolve in laughter. Segue back to SIRIUS, HARRY & HERMIONE HARRY: Now Father HERMIONE: And Old Mother Black. ALL THREE Some family branches subtract SIRIUS: Weasleys are off-limits, yes, that whole crew HARRY: And that includes Arthur ? HERMIONE: ? And Molly, too ? SIRIUS: And Charlie and Ginny ? HARRY ?And Ronald too? HERMIONE: ? And then there's the Dog Star ? SIRIUS & HARRY Dog Star? SIRIUS: ?Pluto?? HARRY Lassie? HERMIONE: You know ? ! HARRY: Padfoot! HERMIONE: Yes! ALL THREE As all the paintings get packed The house-elf is blowing his stack. HERMIONE: And Dumble says treat him with great respect HARRY His rights and his privileges pledge protect SIRIUS: It would be more fun to wring his elf-neck ? That worthless old family hack? ALL THREE For he will not forfeit Not one of the portraits Of Reggie or Old Mother Black Or Ella or Bella or Ari or Al or Reg or Dad or Andy or Narcy or Phin Or other Blacks in stacks and stacks and stacks And stacks and stacks and stacks and stacks ? The Grimmauld Place at Number 12, Is home to one packratting elf. - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Wed Aug 13 00:07:46 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 20:07:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry the Auror... or not? References: Message-ID: <3F398152.7050205@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76843 annemehr wrote: > I don't know why they take the prophecy that way, because to > me, "either must die" means one or the other. If it said, "one must > die at the hand of the other" it would make it sound like a > *certain* one must die. By saying "either must die" the prophecy > doesn't specify which one it is. > > It's like if someone asks you, "do you want eggs or cereal this > morning?" and you reply, "either," it means you'll have one or the > other, not *both*. You're just not specifying which one. 'Either' can mean both, and Rowling has used it with that meaning when she described the QWC arena with goals at either end of the field. It doesn't have to mean both, but it can. Which is undoubtedly exactly why she chose to use the word. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Wed Aug 13 01:51:06 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 21:51:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The trios SHIPPING options References: Message-ID: <3F39998A.3090403@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76844 mom31 wrote: > > Ron/Hemione: Certainly many clues there. Until book 5, I thought it was a > given. They seem to have taken a step back in OOP though, IMO. Meaning, > less happened than in book 4, and that really surprised me. Why would JKR > do that? Probably because when they pair off the relations among the three of them will be greatly affected, so it can't occur too early. My guess is near the end of the 6th book. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Wed Aug 13 02:40:03 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 22:40:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] chocolate frog cards References: Message-ID: <3F39A503.6050206@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76845 mom31 wrote: > I wonder why Harry isn't on a chocolate frog card? He's in many books, and > he's extremely famous. I think he would be on a chocolate frog card. Because he never licensed the use of his likeness to the Chocolate Frog Company, Ltd. If they use his likeness without permission, he could sue them. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Wed Aug 13 04:10:24 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:10:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who's going to betray the Order? References: Message-ID: <3F39BA30.7020303@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76846 a_reader2003 wrote: > > CW: I'd put my money on Hermione. She wouldn't do it on purpose, but > it would be a repeat of the broomstick episode. She'd think she was > doing something for the best, but then screw up big time. Hermione did not "screw up big time" in the broomstick. She was 100% correct to be suspicious of it, and McGonagall agreed. That it turned out to be harmless does not mean that the suspicions were unjustified on the evidence available to her at the time. > I think she > shows so much reluctance to go along with his various dangerous > sounding schemes, that there's going to be one time too many, and she > makes the wrong decision, supposedly for his own good, and provokes > disaster. Harry's schemes are not just dangerous-sounding, they are dangerous. His using the fireplace in Umbridge's office to talk to Sirius the first time, just so he could feel better about his father, was incredibly stupid. His insistence on "rescuing" Sirius, despite many warnings that it was a ruse, did provoke disaster. It is Harry, not Hermione, who repeatedly makes the wrong decisions. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Wed Aug 13 04:14:31 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 00:14:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Firenze (was: Re: Pronunciation of Voldemort) References: Message-ID: <3F39BB27.8010904@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76847 Susan Miller wrote: > > One could conclude that there are no females, and that new centaurs > are somehow "made", I think one ought to conclude that the ancients who invented the legends of the centaurs did not worry about such details. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 04:56:26 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 04:56:26 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76848 > wrote: > > > It hasn't been mentioned because it isn't possible. It's > mentioned > > several times that Bill, Charlie, and Percy were all Head Boy in > > their respective last years at Hogwarts. If Bill and Charlie were > in > > the same year, it would have been one or the other. > > biphile: > > Not so. They were all prefect, but Charlie wasn't Headboy. Didn't > Molly say "Second Headboy in the family" when Percy made it? > > You're right though that Bill and Charlie couldn't both be made > prefect the same year since there appears to be only one boy and one > girl chose from the fifth years of each house. I never thought they > were in the same year anyway though. > Darn, you're right. I was confusing being HB with the statement Molly made when Ron was made prefect "that's everyone in the family!" (Fred or George then said "What are we, next door neighbors?" ;-) Being a graduate of US public school system, I fear, has permanently hindered my abilty to keep that rather important distinction straight. ~Margaret From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 05:51:56 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:51:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76849 Golly: >>>>>> One of the reasons I think that confirms for me that OOTP is so badly > written is that I cannot shake the idea that Rowling is planning an > R/H romance. She has all but said it in interviews. And book 4 > clearly established a pattern between Ron and Hermione that made me > look back at POA and say "Yah I can see that is somewhat sexual in > nature." I see where you are going... Me (Margart): Yup, I saw that too. But personally I liked it. It was subtle (in my opinion) but there. >>>>>>> > But IMHO OOTP is an H/Hers dream and an R/Her nightmar. No matter > how many say the Pumpkin Ship is dead in the water I think it gained > new boyancy. Margaret: I don't think so. I rather think it was the first nail in that coffin. >>>>>>> > Hermione knows Ron likes her - that is clear. However, she does > nothing to encourage this beyond that kiss. She also does one very > strong thing to discourage Ron persuing her. She never tells him the > status of her relationship with Krum. If she isn't with him she > certainly lets him think that. (If she is with him, that is enough > to discourage Ron.) Margaret: I'm not sure if she's completely registered it, though she may have an inkling. She might just see it as "Well Hermione's my friend, and she should stay available in case I want to date her." That's a bit to much. And is valid 'know it all' thinking. Been there myself. But after all the rotten things Ron said about Krum in GoF, but then asked for an autograph at the end, wouldn't you want to torment him with that just a little? >>>> So at best she didn't mean anything but a friendly kiss for a friend > and at worst she's a tease. Margaret: Not touching this one. I think she wanted to make him feel better, and it was an impulse. That's it. >>>> But look at Harry and Hermione.... > > I think it clear that Harry doesn't like Hermione now... But feelings > change. Cho is done opening up some room on Harry's dance card. > Although I think that Hermione doesn't much seem like his type he > seems to respect and listen to her more than he does other girls. > Plus he might feel safer in liking a girl he trusts and already > admires than just any random chick... (That being said she' not the > only person. But I mean to say it could work.) Margaret: I think the fact that Harry gave her a book for Christmas, and Ron gave her perfume shows Harry isn't interested in Hermione romantically. I hope he doesn't just go for her because she's comfortable and familiar. Not good psychologically, that. >>>>>>>>>>> > It is Hermione that I think promotes H/Her here... > > 1. Though she advises him about Cho, asking him to come to meet Rita > on Valentines day was unnecessary and rather thoughtless. (My real > opinion is that it is a cheap plot device). Seeing as how she > expected him to deal with Cho in some acceptable manner, one wonders > why she didn't just make meeting for some other weekend or have Rita > meet them secretly on campus. Margaret: I think it was the only practical way for them to meet up with Rita Skeeter. Asking her to come on campus would have been breaking the rules, and given that all of Hermione's leverage is based on Rita being a felon, it wouldn't set a good precedent. As Valentine's Day was only the second Hogsmeade weekend of the year, who know's how long they would have had to wait for a third? I do think it would have been prudent of Hermione to tell Harry how to get Cho to the 3 Broomsticks though, she wasn't surprised at Cho's reaction, so she should have expected Harry to mess everything up. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > What Hermione did strikes me as the type of thing a girl does when > she likes her best friend and doesn't a)want to admit it to herself > or b) is determined to get over it. She sabatoges (perhaps > unconciously) his date with Cho. Had she not shown that she could > predict Cho's reaction I would think it was merely Hermione being > obtuse. The brainy girls who doesn't consider romance when planning > things. But clearly she's not obtuse. > > 2. Harry is the only boy Hermione seems to respect (other than > Krum). But seeing as how Krum is not at Hogwarts I will surmise he > won't be a major figure in the romantic plotlines. I personally > suspect she's not dating Krum since Rowling conviently left that a > grey area. > > So Hermione seems not to respect Ron at all. She tears him down > publically for not being able to say Voldemort. She seems endlessly > frustrated with him. She MOCKS his fear about failing at Quidditch - > very nice Hermione... She frankly sees him as being both weak and > something less than Harry. (Not what I would want a lady love to > think about me...) Margaret: I think this sounds like the actions of a girl who has feelings for Ron and can't believe what a dolt he can be. She's either not comfortable with the idea of being with Ron, and tries to point out his faults to herself, or she's just one of those people who shows affection by nitpicking. There are alot of those people out there. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > Contrast this with the way she interacts with Harry. She feels and > seems to respect every one of his emotions - even the nasty unfair > bouts of loutiness. When she thinks he's on the wrong path she's > considerate and gentle about her advice being careful to take his > feelings into account. She works with him promoting his goal and > helping him out - for example with questioning his logic about Sirus' > abduction. She respects and admires Harry. She thinks him the best > thing since sliced bread. Oh Harry you're so amazing at X, Y, Z... > Yada Yada... *spew*... Margaret: Another point where I agree it's an important observation, but totally disagree about the cause/meaning. I think it seems like Hermione feels bad for Harry, his life has been awful, his parents are dead, and he's in constant danger from someone people still insist on calling Lord Thingy (gotta love Fudge's take-charge attitude, don't you?) She is constantly amazed he manages to function day to day. Probably afraid if she critisizes him to much, he'll snap and end up in the long term care ward of St. Mungo's. >>> In the end I can't see how it wouldn't work. Me either. >>> But that is ok if Hermione doesn't want Ron - She doesn't deserve him > anyway.... (bushy haired freak!) I actually want Ron and Hermione together, and am dreadfully afraid she'll end up with Harry (and watch those bushy hair comments!) ~Margaret, who fears she has gone on too long with this, but reallyreallyreallyreally wants to sink the H/H SHIP, and so felt she had to add her cannonball to the barrage. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 13 05:05:26 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:05:26 -0000 Subject: Peeves and The Bloody Baron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76850 --- "angelberri56" wrote: > I really hope that JKR reveals in book 6 or 7 why Peeves listens > to the Bloody Baron and no one else. I hope that the Bloody > Baron's story is explained. I've been wondering about it for a > while. > > Also- Why do the Gryffindors always have classes with the > Hufflepuffs and Slytherins, but none with Ravenclaws? Maybe > they do but it's just not mentioned. Ravenclaws are hardly > mentioned at all in the books, actually. We only meet some > Ravenclaws in OotP. SUGGESTION: The Baron came from a time when "... witches and wizards suffered much persecution." (CoS - Chap 9) Binns was talking about the starting of Hogwarts 1000 yrs ago. Salazar Slytherin distrusted Muggles after that time ... so is the ghost Baron Slytherin, Salazar's father, who was killed by a mob of muggles? and RAVENCLAWS ?!? They act like Hermione before she overheard Ron say, "It's no wonder no one can stand her, she's a nightmare, honestly." aussie From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 13 05:42:01 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:42:01 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76851 --- "angelberri56" wrote: > I've been wondering alot about how old Dumbldore is. The > Lexicon states that he is around 150 years old. > > The Chocolate Frog Card says that Dumbeldore was famous for > the defeat of the dark wizard, Grindelwald, in 1945. Dumbledore > could quite possibly have been 30 something when this > happened-quite young. > > I should know.... Examined him personally in Transfiguration and > Charms when he did N.E.W.T.s... Did things with a wand I'd never > seen before..."' > > Professor Marchbanks testing Dumbedore on N.E.W.T.s also > supports my theory- if she was old enough to test Dumbedore > when he was at Hogwarts, and Dumbledore is supposedly 150 > years old, she must be even older! COMMENT: CoS has Harry see Dumbledore in Riddle's Diary. He is described as "a tall wizard with long, sweeping auburn hair and a beard" I found an interview JKR gave on Oct 6th 2000. Question: "How old is old in the wizarding world, and how old are Professors Dumbledore and McGonagall?" "Dumbledore is a hundred and fifty, and Professor McGonagall is a sprightly seventy. Wizards have a much longer life expectancy than Muggles. (Harry hasn't found out about that yet.)" aussie From acoteucla at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 06:46:55 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:46:55 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76852 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > I just did a quick re-read of GoF, and something caught my eye that I > missed the first time. At Karkaroff's hearing (or whatever that was), > Karkaroff gives out the names of several people that he knows to be > DE's. One of the names was, of course, Snape. Then Dumbledore says > something to the effect of "Snape is no longer a DE, he turned spy > for us at great personal risk." Obviously Karkaroff heard this. > Wouldn't he have turned around and shared that information with his > fellow DE's in Azkaban? > Though I don't recall Karkaroff being mentioned in OoP, it's safe to > assume he's still on the loose. What if he uses his information about > Snape to save himself from LV? > On top of this, wasn't it kind of stupid for Dumbledore to mention > the fact that Snape was a spy in front of Karkaroff? > Sorry if this has all been mentioned before. (And I'm sure it must > have been.) There is WAY too much evidence laying around that Snape is a double agent for Dumbledore. There are his actions against Quirrell (whom LV was possessing), there's the umpteen million people who have heard Dumbledore say Snape is trustworthy, there's the fact that he's a member of the Order of the Phoenix and there's probably a spy within the order.... LV HAS to know that Snape is a double agent. That leaves the following possibilities: 1. Snape isn't really spying against LV. JKR has just written it in such a way that it SEEMS like that's his job in the Order. But she hasn't come right out and said it. 2. Snape is pretending to be a double-double agent. He returns to LV with the wonderful news that he is within Dumbledore's inner circle, but LV is his true master. All the "spy-work" he did for Dumbledore a long time back was about unimportant stuff, so as to gain DD's trust. 3. Snape really IS a double-double agent. From foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 06:08:12 2003 From: foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com (FoxyDoxy) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 23:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813060812.64214.qmail@web20511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76853 holly_phoenix_11 wrote: >Even if we take a look at the Aurors, they are not said >to have killed anyone, even if they were fighting >against evil Death Eaters. They just put everyone to >prison. Sirius Said, "I?ll say this for Moody, though, he never killed *if he could help it*. Always brought people in alive *where possible*." (GoF pg 532 US paperback, emphasis added). I interpreted that as, sometimes even Aurors have to resort to killing. I?m particularly fond of Moody apprehending Rosier on information given to him by Snape (or DD who got the information from Snape), and Rosier dead at Moody?s hands. Makes for an interesting interaction between Fake!Moody and Snape IMO. Foxydoxy, (picking up a FEATHERBOA) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 06:49:40 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:49:40 -0000 Subject: Leaky Cauldron, real location? I Know! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > Nineve wrote: > > > I am most definitely NOT confusing it with the film. If you had known > > London Bridge seven years ago, and very well, as I did then, you > > would find that The Leaky Cauldron did indeed have a South London > > feel, and that the shops and businesses around fit in the > > description. Anyway, it doesn't exist, and JKR is not describing a > > place in London, but creating one. > > Nineve. > Sydney: > I thought from PoA that the Leaky Cauldron was either on or > directly off of Charing Cross. It's identified by name: "BANG! They > were thundering along Charing Cross road. Harry sat up and watched > buildings and benches squeezing themselves out of the Night Bus' way. > The sky was getting a little lighter. He would lie low for a couple > of hours, go toGringotts the moment it opened, then set off-- where, > he didn't know. > > Ern slammed on the brakes and the Knight Bus skidded to a halt in > fornt of a small and shabby-looking pub, the Leaky Cauldron..." > > This COULD be interepreted as going along Charing Cross, then past it > to some other location, but if they'd crossed the river I think it > would have been mentioned. > > In any case, there are definitely no cinemas around London Bridge, > while if you got off the tube at Leiscter Square you'd pass several. > Ditto the music and book stores for which Charing Cross is famous. > > I agree with you that Southwark would be a way more evocative location > for the Leaky Cauldron than Charing Cross though! I love that part of > the South Bank. Geoff: I agree with Sydney re things like cinemas. As I have pointed out, London Bridge/Monument/Bank district is very much the commercial/financial area of the City of London. Charing Cross and the City of Westminster north of the river are much more the shopping/entertainment sector. I get two different "feels" from the book and the film. I agree that the south side around London Bridge/Southwark bridge are mor evocative areas; they have always tended to be more tatty and the Leaky Cauldron gives the impression that it seems to be a "low dive" - perhaps to mask its importance as the entry to Diagon Alley. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 06:56:09 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:56:09 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sofdog_2000" wrote: >... Hagrid ... mentions that Lily and James were Head Boy and Girl. How > can this have been if,..., James was never a Prefect? Hasn't Mrs. > Weasley pointed out that Prefecthood is the path to Head kidship? > > Sof bboy_mn: If you become a Prefect, it's an indicator that you have the characteristics necessary to perhaps eventually become Head Boy/Girl. That is, Perfects reflect students who are outstanding, so it's logical that these outstanding students would frequently become Head Boy/Girl. But the two aren't directly interrelated. Head Boy isn't king of the Prefects, it is a separate honor; think of it as valedictorian. This Headship is an honor on all fronts but leaning mostly to outstanding academic achievement and inherent magical skill. Prefectship is related more toward responsible and trustworthy boys and girls who by their nature would also do reasonably well in academics. Just a thought. bboy_mn From subrosax at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 06:58:53 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:58:53 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > > I just did a quick re-read of GoF, and something caught my eye that > I > > missed the first time. At Karkaroff's hearing (or whatever that > was), > > Karkaroff gives out the names of several people that he knows to be > > DE's. One of the names was, of course, Snape. Then Dumbledore says > > something to the effect of "Snape is no longer a DE, he turned spy > > for us at great personal risk." Obviously Karkaroff heard this. > > Wouldn't he have turned around and shared that information with his > > fellow DE's in Azkaban? > > Though I don't recall Karkaroff being mentioned in OoP, it's safe > to > > assume he's still on the loose. What if he uses his information > about > > Snape to save himself from LV? > > On top of this, wasn't it kind of stupid for Dumbledore to mention > > the fact that Snape was a spy in front of Karkaroff? > > Sorry if this has all been mentioned before. (And I'm sure it must > > have been.) > > There is WAY too much evidence laying around that Snape is a double > agent for Dumbledore. There are his actions against Quirrell (whom > LV was possessing), there's the umpteen million people who have heard > Dumbledore say Snape is trustworthy, there's the fact that he's a > member of the Order of the Phoenix and there's probably a spy within > the order.... LV HAS to know that Snape is a double agent. That > leaves the following possibilities: > > 1. Snape isn't really spying against LV. JKR has just written it in > such a way that it SEEMS like that's his job in the Order. But she > hasn't come right out and said it. > > 2. Snape is pretending to be a double-double agent. He returns to LV > with the wonderful news that he is within Dumbledore's inner circle, > but LV is his true master. All the "spy-work" he did for Dumbledore > a long time back was about unimportant stuff, so as to gain DD's > trust. > > 3. Snape really IS a double-double agent. I'm starting to think Snape isn't really spying on VD. As you rightly point out, there is too much evidence out there that Snape is with Dumbledore. I can't imagine what he would be doing, but the prospect of him spying directly on VD is starting to seem much more unlikely. To tell you the truth, I don't know what the hell is going on anymore. Allyson From EnsTren at aol.com Wed Aug 13 07:00:54 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 03:00:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secret Agent Snape Message-ID: <32.3ca04382.2c6b3c26@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76857 In a message dated 8/13/2003 2:48:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, acoteucla at hotmail.com writes: > 1. Snape isn't really spying against LV. JKR has just written it in > such a way that it SEEMS like that's his job in the Order. But she > hasn't come right out and said it. > > 2. Snape is pretending to be a double-double agent. He returns to LV > with the wonderful news that he is within Dumbledore's inner circle, > but LV is his true master. All the "spy-work" he did for Dumbledore > a long time back was about unimportant stuff, so as to gain DD's > trust. > > 3. Snape really IS a double-double agent A fourth theroy: Snape is, in true Slytherin fashion, spying for both sides. Both sides are convinced that Snape's ultimate loyalty is for them, though are perhaps a little worried about "temptations." Or one or both thinks he's working ultimately for the otherside, but they still get information out of him and thus he is too valuable to simply toss away. Voldemort feeds Snape information and misinformation and sends him back to Dumbledore, where Snape delivers the info and helps him decipher it. Dumbledore does the exact same thing and sends him on back, and Snape does the exact same thing. Snape could be the main playing piece in the game that Dumbledore and Voldemort play with each other. Chasers the followers, the loyalists. Beaters the inner circles. Bludgers the idiots at the Ministry, as likely to hurt one side as the other. Keepers the base of operations. Seekers the kings, Voldemort and Dumbledore. Snape is the Quaffal, messages written all over it, and can be used either for or against you. And Harry is the Snitch, or rather the sniget, to be crushed to death once on side catches him and squeases too tight. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From darkthirty at shaw.ca Wed Aug 13 07:19:51 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (lunalovegoodrules) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:19:51 -0000 Subject: Dangers of theosophy and alchemy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76858 I have posted a number of times now thoughts regarding Rowling's amoral stance, her instance on tackling issues on the basis of a certain ethical imperative - like "is this helpful or harmful to others" and the like, as someone posted in OT. But let's remember that alchemy was a symbolic practise, a grammar, if you will, not a science, and, like so many so-called practises, saw liberation and enlightenment as pretty self-centred and self-contained. And one of the main criticisms of alchemy as such is that it can, and indeed was, used, very very often, as a system to justify horrendous crimes against humanity. There is absolutely nothing that will turn lead (the word, "spells") into gold (reality). Rowling has explicitly stated she doesn't believe in that kind of magic. The protocols of the elders of zion was composed of words, and certainly cast some kind of "spell". Here is the danger of using a symbolic language to recreating a facile picture of reality. It is slight of hand, nothing more. And it is always a lie in its nature, and mendacious, more often than not, it its intent. To cross from the symbolic to the literal in referencing "possession" regarding Hitler is anathema, to me, crossing the line from conjecture to propaganda. This is an intentional and fundamental misreading of Rowling, and racist ("special quality of German Blood") to boot, in Hans quoted piece anyway. >"I had resisted and defeated my enemy; I had driven him away. But my >enemy was not the ober-f?hrer. It was someone else. This German man >was just >a victim because of the special quality of German blood. He was >hereditarily >burdened, a sick man. Did you know that Hitler was possessed?..." >The author >states further on that he was never again contacted by the Gestapo. >This to me proves that Liberation above all liberates one from >hatred, fear and ignorance. This proves the man wasn't Jewish, for one thing. Although I find some of Hans speculation entertaining, in terms of literary criticism, I is appologist and sickening when turned upon the RW. dan (shaking head) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 13 08:50:39 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:50:39 -0000 Subject: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76859 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelberri56" wrote: > In the beginning of Goblet of Fire, when Harry dreamed (or rather > saw) what was happening at the Riddle House that night > between Frank Bryce, Voldemort, and Wormtail, and then wrote > to Sirius about his scar, but left out the dream part, did anyone > realize that by putting in the dream he could have maybe saved > Cedric from dying, or at least stopped Voldemort from rising > again? That's a good point, and I never realized it until now. But I've become a bit inured to Harry "leaving out things" every time he has to convey some information to someone. It's almost a rule now - if he's asked an important question, he'll automatically tell only half the story. (Dumbledore would save a lot of time if he just assumed he'd have to beat the truth out of Harry at every interview.) Maybe Rowling has realized that this kink of Harry's is starting to get dull, because now she's upped the ante by also turning him into a compulsive liar. Maybe, as has been suggested elsewhere, this is a sign of a strong moral character at work, but I see very little shame or hesitation on Harry's part. He lies without any hesitation, and to anyone, and on subjects of no importance whatsoever. It's practically his default setting. He's often "angry" when he does it, too, especially when he's lying to his friends, and that seems to be presented as a good enough reason. It's one of the reasons I didn't like Harry in this book; not just the incessant screaming fits and sulks, but his lying and laziness are moral flaws that seemed to suddenly come out of nowhere. Wanda From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 13 09:41:36 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:41:36 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > > > > ] Mental liberation requires discipline. That Harry does not have, > > yet. Will he ever? Anybody's guess. And I'll bet my second best > > cauldron against a chocolate frog that V. enters Harrys' mind > > again in the next book. > > Kneasy > > Well he has a point. I wouldn't disagree that we haven't seen Harry > show a great deal of discipline. But we didn't see Harry show a > great deal of magical skill in DADA either. Sure he's battled > Voldemort a few times and he has a kick ass patronus, but most of it > is either his untapped talent (the Imperious) or just luck (the > sister wand thing). > > snip. > So ... I have a couple of packs of chocolate frogs. I'll take that > bet. I could use a decent cauldron. Mine current one's bottom is too > thin. Keeps leaking my draught of peace all over the floor. > > Golly Have at you, Sir Percy! Bet accepted. Though I should warn you my cauldrons have a default mode that Evanesces! Draughts of Peace. Also, it's got a hole in it, that's why it's second best; but some well-chewed Droobles should solve that. Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 13 09:59:43 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:59:43 +0100 Subject: Vampires Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76861 In the Potterverse are vampires considered to be human? Yes, in mythology they are classed as derived from humans, but does this apply in the WW? I've searched the likely sites seeking clarification but can't find any canon or near canon references. It makes a difference to the theory of Snape being one. According to MBAWTFT, only humans are allowed wands. Suppositions based on accepted lore are not particularly helpful, JKR tends to put her own twist on folk legends. Can anybody find a canon reference? Kneasy From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 13 10:14:22 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:14:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Grey laundry - depression References: <3F398BC6.2020107@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <001701c36183$cf864880$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76862 From: jazmyn <>I think the grey laundry is just a sign that he was from a poor family. There's nothing to make me believe that Snape wears velvet and silk.. Its just not something I feel he would do. I see him as suffering depression, withdrawing from contact with others because he is unable to develop close relationships. This is a problem linked to depression. There is plenty of canon to support it. He was unpopular and an outcast as a student, he was a Death Eater, then turned spy for whatever reason, perhaps because he found the DEs were not 'real friends' and were only using him. He doesn't feel a part of the 'family' in the order and doesn't hang out with them any longer then it takes to make a report. He prowls the halls by night.. Depression can cause sleeplessness. He tends to not take care of his teeth and hair, more symptoms of depression.<> _________________ Whilst I agree that Snape displays symptoms of a depressive nature, I can't agree with all of your reasoning, and some of it is a little self contradictory. If he was such an outsider or an outcast, there was no way he could have been inducted into a group which was formed and operated in secrecy and which therefore had to have at least a minimal level of 'trust' between its members (if only 'I trust you to stick a knife in my back the moment I show weakness, and vice versa'). If he became disillusioned with the attitude of the other DEs towards him, he wouldn't immediately turn to another group which he takes mortal risks for with no acknowledgement of, or acceptance for, his efforts, he would just try to withdraw and become less of a target. Most of the Order actively show they are using him, don't like him, and are not his friends, so what would be the attraction, if those were the reasons he decided to betray LV and the DEs? As for his physical appearance, he has obviously put a lot of effort into it. He no longer hunches or moves like a scuttling spider, but protects himself with an intimidating stance, attitude and way of dressing. The point is the hair and teeth don't completely fit with this image he has built, and seems reasonably obssesive to maintain. If he lets the image slip because of depression, then it is highly likely the clothing would suffer too, and I think Harry and co. would be quick to make comment about stains (which would still still show on black), tears and patches. They noticed them on Lupin, before they decided he was a nice guy, and Malfoy and the like certainly made comment. We have seen that Snape can get very impassioned about things, if only about things concerning him personally, and so he obviously has highs as well as lows, and it would be likely that during the highs he would take better care if himself, and the suddenly spruced up Snape would not go uncommented amongst the student body. We have no indication this happens, so I tend to believe that the hair and teeth are either a sign of a different underlying problem (like the lead poisoning I mentioned in the golden cauldron thread) or else are being specifically cultivated by Snape for some unfathomable reason - they certainly don't fit with the powerful, self reliant and intimidating image his stance, demeanour and clothing project. As for silks and other sensual stimuli, several friends of mine who suffer from clinical depression to one degree or another find that luxury fabrics (specifically silks and velvets) have a very positive affect on them. Maybe when he feels all the WW is against him, Snape puts on a silk shirt under the robes, and tells himself he is better than they say, and worth it? I see nothing wrong with this idea, and again, it does fit the image. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 06:47:58 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:47:58 -0000 Subject: Peeves and The Bloody Baron In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76863 > --- "angelberri56" wrote: > > > > > > Also- Why do the Gryffindors always have classes with the > > Hufflepuffs and Slytherins, but none with Ravenclaws? Maybe > > they do but it's just not mentioned. Ravenclaws are hardly > > mentioned at all in the books, actually. We only meet some > > Ravenclaws in OotP. > > It could be a good thing they don't have many classes with the Ravenclaws, given their history as "the Gryffindors dating service". ;-) Keep their minds on their studies. ~Margaret From spi00000000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 06:49:01 2003 From: spi00000000 at yahoo.com (spi00000000) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:49:01 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76864 Newbie response----- I have a theory. When Lupin or Sirious(can't remember who said it) Said that Remus was the prefect and none of the rest of the friends-- maybe he was just refering to FIFTH YEAR. Remus was a fifth year Gryfindor prefect, But what if JAmes was made a prefect in sixth year? Spi-- going back to lurking. From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 13 06:50:18 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:50:18 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76865 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > On top of this, wasn't it kind of stupid for Dumbledore to mention > the fact that Snape was a spy in front of Karkaroff? > Sorry if this has all been mentioned before. (And I'm sure it must > have been.) My guess is that Snape's role in Voldemort's camp is a spy on Dumbledore (that is the same role in reverse that he does for Dumbledore). Therefore, for Voldemort, any public demonstration of Dumbledore's support for Snape strengthens his belief that his spying is working. Snape's occlumency powers make him an ideal spy for Dumbledore - but also for Voldemort if he so chooses. Clearly he cheats one of his two masters. In the books we are made to believe that Snape is firmly on the good side. It is repeated in nearly every book how Dumbledore trusts Snape. Ron's suspicions about Snape are also repeated in every book however. It will be interesting to find who was right - Ron or Dumbledore... Salit (who thinks that Snape is currently on the good side but will turn bad due to his hatered of Harry, perhaps after DD dies) From cressida_tt at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 07:24:07 2003 From: cressida_tt at hotmail.com (cressida_tt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:24:07 -0000 Subject: HARRY'S JOB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whizbee2000" wrote: > "miss_america_03" wrote: > > > I, unlike many people, do NOT believe he will become an Auror. I totally agree with you on this one. It is simply too obvious and the fact that JK Rowling has mentioned it on several occasions seems to seal its fate as being a red herring - she is simply never OBVIOUS In addition to that I would have to say that any of Harry's friends would advise him to steer clear of the Dark Arts after the life he has led so far. We know that the Magical World is very wide and I am sure that JK Rowling has someting much less clicheed and more imaginative up her sleeve. D. From melissa_haslam at moldflow.com Wed Aug 13 10:13:27 2003 From: melissa_haslam at moldflow.com (Me1is) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:13:27 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76867 > bboy_mn: > > If you become a Prefect, it's an indicator that you have the > characteristics necessary to perhaps eventually become Head Boy/Girl. > That is, Perfects reflect students who are outstanding, so it's > logical that these outstanding students would frequently become Head > Boy/Girl. But the two aren't directly interrelated. Head Boy isn't > king of the Prefects, it is a separate honor; think of it as > valedictorian. > > This Headship is an honor on all fronts but leaning mostly to > outstanding academic achievement and inherent magical skill. > Prefectship is related more toward responsible and trustworthy boys > and girls who by their nature would also do reasonably well in academics. > I think being head boy/girl is actually more like being school captain. You have to be someone who can relate to both students and teachers, and have leadership qualities. >From what I have gained from American TV shows (not sure how accurate they are) Valedictorian is mainly just an academic honor. I think to be head boy/girl you need to be academic/intelligent, but more important is that you can act as a role model and lead the school. This is why Harry could definitely end up being Head boy - he may not be the most academic in the school but he's a role model (except for the times when everyone thinks he's evil :), he does extremely well in his extra-curricular activity (quidditch), has respect from both Teachers and Students (except the slytherins, but you can't please everyone),and he has shown leadership qualities (the DA). Plus he's Dumbledores favorite which will help, providing Harry gets over Dumbledores behaviour towards him from year 5. From laikokae at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 10:30:05 2003 From: laikokae at hotmail.com (Kae *) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:30:05 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secret Agent Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76868 In a message dated 8/13/2003 2:48:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, acoteucla at hotmail.com writes: > 1. Snape isn't really spying against LV. JKR has just written it in > such a way that it SEEMS like that's his job in the Order. But she > hasn't come right out and said it. > > 2. Snape is pretending to be a double-double agent. He returns to LV > with the wonderful news that he is within Dumbledore's inner circle, > but LV is his true master. All the "spy-work" he did for Dumbledore > a long time back was about unimportant stuff, so as to gain DD's > trust. > > 3. Snape really IS a double-double agent Well, Harry thinks at the end of book four that Snape must've gone back to being a double-agent, and since Harry has a habit of being wrong about this stuff (at least at first), I'd say he's wrong. We know Snape is keeping tabs on the Death Eaters. He says so himself in OotP. I just don't think he's doing it the way we think (being a double agent). I imagine there'll be quite a bit on exactly what Snape is doing in book six. Laik, not saying much that hasn't already been said. _________________________________________________________________ Hot chart ringtones and polyphonics. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilemania/default.asp From sylviablundell at aol.com Wed Aug 13 10:43:42 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:43:42 -0000 Subject: More Jane Austen Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76869 I was thinking along thesame lines about Mansfield Park. Harry could indeed represent poor downtrodden little Fanny Price, but who stands for boring Edmund Bertram and lovely Henry Crawford? Or am I pushing the parallels too far? Good game, though, isn't it! Shall we move on to Emma? From mkeller01 at alltel.net Wed Aug 13 11:45:55 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:45:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Reading Minds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76870 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelberri56" > wrote: > > I'm sorry if this has already been said, but: > > > > How did Dumbledore know that Voldemort had possesed Ginny, > > at then end of CoS... when Harry stopped talking because he > > didn't want to say that Ginny had done all the Petrifying? I'm > pretty > > sure it was because of Occlumency, but if someone else has an > > idea, please tell me. > > > > Also, in PS/SS, when Hermione and Harry go up to the North > > Tower to drop off Norbert, and then leave the invisibility cloak, > > how did Dumbledore know where it was to return it to Harry's > > bed? Remember, it had a note attached to it that said: "Just in > > case." That was most likely Dumbledore who left it. How did he > > know it was there? Did he just find it there by accident and then > > return it to Harry? > > > > "angelberri56" acoteucla wrote: > Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry "closer than he > realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. The best explanation to how > he knows so much is that he was there when the incidents happened. I > personally favor the idea that Dumbledore is (yet another) > unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we see during Harry's > transfiguration OWL. In chapter 16 of PoA while Harry is waiting to take his Divination exam; "He settled himself on the floor with his back against the wall, listening to a fly buzzing in the sunny window...." That caught my attention because it caught Harry's attention. Could Dumbledore be a multi-animagus? Or does Filch need to buy some fly strips? Toad (who sincerely hopes that if D. can turn himself into buggies that Trevor doesn't get wind of it.) From Lynx412 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 11:50:32 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 07:50:32 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves and The Bloody Baron Message-ID: <8.3b33acc2.2c6b8008@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76871 In a message dated 8/13/03 2:40:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au writes: > SUGGESTION: The Baron came from a time when "... witches and wizards > suffered much persecution." (CoS - Chap 9) Binns was talking about > the starting of Hogwarts 1000 yrs ago. Salazar Slytherin distrusted > Muggles after that time ... so is the ghost Baron Slytherin, > Salazar's father, who was killed by a mob of muggles? Interesting. Personally, I had always theorized that the BB was Salazar, keeping an eye on his house. The other ghosts know this, which is why they all seem to fear him. Now that we know about metamorphomagi [sp?] such an imposture becomes explainable. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 12:07:51 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 05:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore Watching Over Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813120751.50130.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76872 > > wrote: > > > I'm sorry if this has already been said, but: > > > > > > How did Dumbledore know that Voldemort had > possesed Ginny, > > > at then end of CoS... when Harry stopped talking > because he > > > didn't want to say that Ginny had done all the > Petrifying? I'm > > pretty > > > sure it was because of Occlumency, but if > someone else has an > > > idea, please tell me. angelberri56 wrote: > > > Also, in PS/SS, when Hermione and Harry go up to > the North > > > Tower to drop off Norbert, and then leave the > invisibility > cloak, > > > how did Dumbledore know where it was to return > it to Harry's > > > bed? Remember, it had a note attached to it that > said: "Just in > > > case." That was most likely Dumbledore who left > it. How did he > > > know it was there? Did he just find it there by > accident and > then > > > return it to Harry? > > acoteucla wrote: > > > Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry > "closer than he > > realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. The best > explanation to > how > > he knows so much is that he was there when the > incidents > happened. I > > personally favor the idea that Dumbledore is (yet > another) > > unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we > see during > Harry's > > transfiguration OWL. > Toad wrote: > In chapter 16 of PoA while Harry is waiting to take > his Divination > exam; "He settled himself on the floor with his back > against the > wall, listening to a fly buzzing in the sunny > window...." That > caught my attention because it caught Harry's > attention. Could > Dumbledore be a multi-animagus? Or does Filch need > to buy some fly > strips? Buttercup: This is possible. Perhaps this is a subtle indication from JKR, who doesn't want to draw too much attention, yet knows that she must must show how Dumbledore is actually watching over Harry. I wonder if there are other passages in the books where Harry notices a fly or other insects. What other reason would JKR write a scene that included Harry seeing a bug? Very good observation, Toad. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 12:36:39 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:36:39 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76873 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: > < When did Harry *ever* get a wand spell to work properly the first > time he tried it?) > < This post just made me think, "can't wizards use ordinary weapons > like guns etc.? Is their only way of fighting using wands and spells?" > (snip) > I can just picture Harry facing Voldemort the same way. Voldemort > waving his wand - ready to strike - Harry wandless on the ground.... > when suddenly he remembers the gun in his pocket and BANG! You're > dead! > Heh heh heh...... if that wouldn't cause Voldemort's jaw to drop - > nothing would :) > > Inge >From CW: Inge, for further hilarious results of faery meeting high tech read the Artemis Fowl series - small, highly devious Irish boy plus laptop & assorted weaponry takes on the whole magical world in an effort to pull off the heist of the century; I fear that Gringotts wouldn't last two seconds ! Seriously (?possibly the wrong word in this context), I have always thought that JKR has evaded the computer and Internet issue. It is stated several times that Dud has a computer, and Harry must be aware of the Internet - the books are set in the mid to late 90s after all, and he has spent at least five years at a Muggle school. I refuse to believe that he and Hermione don't know about computers and the communication possibilities they offer. As part of the attraction of the series is its apparent parallel existence with our world -it could all be real if only we Muggles looked a little more carefully around us- I am a bit surprised that Harry doesn't bring some Muggle solutions to bear on his WW dilemmas. Arthur Weasley would be so fascinated apart from anything else ! Although wizards seem to have the ability to make Muggle mechanical devices not work (ref the long and funny Atom Bomb posts recently !), I still think Harry could sneakily use the Internet from time to time when at Privet Drive. I can't imagine either Voldie or DD understanding what it does, so both could underestimate it as a secret weapon.....Philip Pullman has a good bit in his Dark Materials trilogy where the protagonists use computers to track themselves, (or the 'dust' they are covered in)in other universes. Come on JKR.. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 12:39:37 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:39:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Sherlock Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76874 I'm a big Sherlock Homes fan, and it occurred to me the other day that if JKR decides to bring Sirius back somehow, she will have some pretty solid literary precedent. After all, Conan Doyle thought he'd killed off Sherlock pretty definitively but it turned out he was wrong. No body, you see. Of course, there are differences-JKR has the whole HP plotline thought out whereas ACD deliberately wrote the Holmes stories and novels to stand independently. Still...hope springs eternal. In my heart, I think Sirius is really gone but with JKR, anything is possible. Laura (still in mourning for her beloved Sirius even though her teenage daughter thinks she should get over it already) From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Aug 13 12:44:09 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:44:09 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Number of Students at Hogwarts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308131444.09154.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76875 bibphile: > They way I see it both numbers are unreasonably low and the more > specific evidence (students and dorm we've actually looked at) > points to the lower number. > Of course, the number of students is like the value of a galleon. I > don't see a way to reconcile the evidence so I just have to pick. I had a brief discussion about the number of Gryffindors in Harry's year with another list member, she said she couldn't recall this point being brought up in the dissusions, so I'll post it. In the pre-yule ball period, there are conversations about who's going with whom, and wich are the free to ask out. If there were 2 more Gryffindor dormitories, their names, or at least existance, should have been brought up as possible dates. If there are more Gryff than stated, the conversations don't make sense. Add this to the lot of contradictory evidence. silmariel From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 10:37:08 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:37:08 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76876 Just a thought, but... I think Aging in the wizarding world has everything to do with your use of magic and where you live. Dumbledore, McGonagall, et al all live and work at Hogwarts (of course I am assuming the living arrangements). They live in an environment embued with magic. They use powerful magic on a regular basis. Could this use and where they live extend their lives? I know this theory does not apply to Voldemort. But in his case, he traveled quite a long time immersing himself in the Dark Arts. Finding ways to extend his lifespan. So therefore, half my theory works. So, I postulate, intense use of magic (not everyday use as in cleaning, or cooking, etc.) and the environment you live in can enhance the span of years. That is why Dumbledore can be 150. If you recall in SS, McGonagall is described as having black hair, not a mention of gray. And in OotP she tells Umbridge she has been teaching at Hogwarts for 37 years. D From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 13 12:52:31 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:52:31 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76877 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > > holly_phoenix_11: > > > ...it is really hard for me to be convinced that anyone, > > > even Dumbledore, would sacrifice someone's life, even for the > > > greater good, especially if they trully belong to the good side... massive snippage > lupinwolf2001: > > WHAT DID > > I CARE IF NUMBERS OF NAMELESS and FACELESS PEOPLE AND > CREATURES WERE > > SLAUGHTERED IN THE VAUGE FUTURE, if in the here and now you were > > alive, and well, and happy? I never dreamed that I would have such a > > person on my hands. > madeyemood: > but sirius had both name and face, both of which mean a great deal to DD. And this leads to another incongruity in the "Dumbledore Had to Kill Sirius" idea. DD seemed to have a certain fondness for Sirius in GoF in that he helped find a hiding place so that Sirius could be near Hogwarts for the Tournament. He had also been in touch with Sirius throughout the year, which had to have been a welcome interaction for a man on the run who was pretty cut off from society. He brings Sirius in to be with Harry after the end of the Tournament. Then, in OoP, his professed reason for keeping Sirius locked up in Grimmauld Place, as he states flat out to Harry, was that he wanted to keep Sirius alive. Okay, is he lying through his teeth here? Or is he shading the truth? Is he telling Harry his original reason for insisting Sirius stay hidden, and not telling Harry that circumstances had changed over the months? In other words, had Dumbledore's assessment of the situation indicated to him that Sirius might have to be sacrificed in order to push Harry in a certain direction? And, that when Sirius showed up at the Dept. of Mysteries, Dumbledore was presented with a golden oppportunity to ensure that happened? And, if that is indeed the case, how will Harry react to that, should he ever find out? Marianne From akhillin at rcn.com Wed Aug 13 13:07:07 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 06:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Jane Austen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813130707.1040.qmail@web41802.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76881 sylviablundell2001 wrote: I was thinking along thesame lines about Mansfield Park. Harry could indeed represent poor downtrodden little Fanny Price, but who stands for boring Edmund Bertram and lovely Henry Crawford? Or am I pushing the parallels too far? akh: I've been thinking about this, too, and with some stretching and pulling, I thought Dumbledore COULD stand in for Edmund as the mentor who is admired, almost worshipped, but who is not without faults. Henry's much trickier, but this is too much fun to give up. I was having more success comparing Mrs. Norris to Dolores Umbridge. Both are spiteful, toadying (!), manipulative people who show blatant favoritism along with astoundingly bad judgment. From that, I suppose we could draw a few parallels between Sir Thomas Bertram and Cornelius Fudge: flattered by Norris/Umbridge into making bad decisions, determined to keep Harry/Fanny in his/her place, unwilling (perhaps unable, in Sir Thomas's case) to see the reality before him, forced in the end to admit his own failings in dealing with issues. Good game, though, isn't it! Shall we move on to Emma? akh: I can't wait! ;-) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 13:09:14 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:09:14 -0000 Subject: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Brooke" > > I have always wondered why Harry has not asked anyone what his > parents did for a living. I would like to hear JKR's reason for his > lack of curiousity there. > Brookeshanks But JK, has told us why Harry doesn't ask more questions. The Dursleys have got him trained to not ask questions about his parents. Serena From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 13 13:09:32 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:09:32 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House References: Message-ID: <003d01c3619c$23f5a740$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76883 From: Wanda Sherratt <He lies without any hesitation, and to anyone, and on subjects of no importance whatsoever. It's practically his default setting. He's often "angry" when he does it, too, especially when he's lying to his friends, and that seems to be presented as a good enough reason. It's one of the reasons I didn't like Harry in this book; not just the incessant screaming fits and sulks, but his lying and laziness are moral flaws that seemed to suddenly come out of nowhere. ---------------- Just sounds like a normal teenager to me :) Seriously, his behaviour is fairly typical of someone in the awkward inbetween stage of development - not quite adult enough to be taken seriously by the adult community, still being coddled and condescended to, but expected to start behaving in an appropriately adult manner without any of the benefits (or responsibilities). Not one thing or another, and not coping too well. Harry is also reflecting the adults around him. Everywhere he turns, he finds he has been lied to, things have been kept from him 'for his own good' or 'until the right time', people take out their own anger and insecurities on him for no reason he can see, people don't trust him, and he is finding different, hidden aspects of people that means he sees them in a new light, usually at odds with his established view of them. There is also the fact he could well become the salvation or destruction of both the WW and the mundane world, and has no idea how, that he has to come to terms with. All this, and raging hormones, too. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 13:16:24 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:16:24 -0000 Subject: HARRY'S JOB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76884 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whizbee2000" wrote: > "miss_america_03" wrote: > > > I, unlike many people, do NOT believe he will become an Auror. > > "acoteucla" wrote: > I'm wondering if Harry will end up being an author and writing about > his adventures. Wendi CW: This would be so Tolkein, I don't think she would want to be accused of the similarity. In a previous post (74023)I suggested he might lose all his powers and just go back to being a Muggle. However, I admit this thought is rather influenced by Pullman and his loss of innocence theme. From harryp at stararcher.com Wed Aug 13 12:53:03 2003 From: harryp at stararcher.com (ecaplan_52556) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 12:53:03 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76885 If anyone is having any trouble seeing how a Ron and Hermoine relationSHIP would play out, just take a look at Mr. and Mrs. Weasley. I can just see in my mind's eye an adult Ron having some spell backfire on him and Hermione rolling her eyes and fixing it up for him. From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 13 13:21:31 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:21:31 -0000 Subject: Lily and Alice Longbottom Was: Who were Lily's Hogwarts friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76886 > > rredordead at a... wrote: Lily had to have had girl friends in school and most likely one > > particular girlfriend. > Then RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > Well, my vote for a best friend would be Alice Longbottom. > > > > It would definitely explain why Harry has never heard from > > Lily's best friend. Just my guess though :) > > Now snazzzybird says: > That's exactly what I've been thinking -- Alice Longbottom as Lily > Potter's best friend. As a matter of fact, I first thought of this > when considering the fact that, although we know a lot about Harry's godfather, Sirius Black, we don't even know the identity of his godmother. Surely she would have made herself known to him by now, if she were able. It occurred to me that Alice, Lily's co- worker and sister-in-arms, would be a natural choice. Perhaps Lily was Neville's godmother as well. Mandy (Rredordead at a) again: I agree but I was hoping for a best friend who was alive enough to tell us (through Harry) what the deal is with Lily! Can we expect Alice to recover after 15 years in insanity? :-( In the UK the deal with Godparents is this: any child given Godparents (and it's usually the vaguely religious to religious protestant families) get tree. Two of the same sex and one of the opposite sex. So I had two Godmothers and one Godfather. I have always wondered where the other Godparents are and it makes sense that they could be Alice and Frank Longbottom which is why they have never come forward. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 13:21:29 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:21:29 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: <001701c36183$cf864880$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76887 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > If he was such an outsider or an outcast, there was no way he could have been inducted into a group which was formed and operated in secrecy and which therefore had to have at least a minimal level of 'trust' between its members Most of the Order actively show they are using him, don't like him, and are not his friends, so what would be the attraction, if those were the reasons he decided to betray LV and the DEs? > > As for his physical appearance, he has obviously put a lot of effort into it. He no longer hunches or moves like a scuttling spider, but protects himself with an intimidating stance, attitude and way of dressing. > > Dawn Laura: Ah, the ever-puzzling Severus. I agree that his behavior doesn't look like depression, nor do I think it's any kind of sociopathic syndrome. My guess is that his behavior is the adaptive strategy he found would work best for someone in his position. Sometimes people who have been deprived of a healthy emotional environment go looking for the love they didn't get, and they become very social. And sometimes it's the opposite. Snape has learned not to trust anyone except himself. He arrived at Hogwarts already very familiar with the dark arts, which he must have seen as the best self-protection available. His relations with his fellow Slytherins couldn't really be called friendship per se-more like an alliance based on a common interest. You never get the idea that the gang with whom Snape hung out in school went bowling together or whatever wizard kids do for fun. And I don't think the DEs had a social relationship either, so whatever network Snape was part of after Hogwarts didn't provide any emotional support for him. The secretive nature of the DEs would just reinforce his trust-no-one-but-himself strategy. Dawn's point about SS creating his teacher persona is a very good one. He may not be liked (I wonder if even Draco really *likes* him) but he's damn well feared. No one's going to mess with this guy ever again. Of course, no one's going to invite him over for tea, either. Now Snape is playing the double-agent game, and that can't be good for his self-esteem, whatever he has of it. If you've ever read Graham Greene or John LeCarre, you learn that spies don't think much of themselves because they know that they are professional betrayers, even if it's for a good cause. (Whether this is true in real life, I don't know, but that seems to be the literary convention.) And if you're a double agent, you must have incredible inner confusion about what it is you believe and who you truly are. The sheer mental effort of keeping up that level of deception means you don't have a lot of energy for much else-like healthy relationships. I don't agree that most of the people in the Order don't like Snape-I don't see any evidence of this in the text. The only person who really hated Snape is (apparently) gone. No one else fights with him. Even Remus is trying to get along with him. So here's his chance to break out of his isolation with people who understand and respect the difficulty of what he's doing. Will he allow them to break through his isolation? We'll see. > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 13 13:24:27 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:24:27 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secret Agent Snape References: Message-ID: <3F3A3C0B.7010306@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76888 slgazit wrote: > In the books we are made to believe that Snape > is firmly on the good side. It is repeated in nearly every book > how Dumbledore trusts Snape. Ron's suspicions about Snape are also > repeated in every book however. > It will be interesting to find who was right - Ron or Dumbledore... > > Salit > (who thinks that Snape is currently on the good side but will turn > bad due to his hatered of Harry, perhaps after DD dies) > digger writes: I too am still pondering Snape's position. He is in an interesting and complex situation. Having (I imagine) become a DE when he was full of hate and desiring revenge (never a good time for career decisions), some of which was aimed, with good cause, at James Potter, something made Snape change his mind about Voldemort and turn to Dumbledore instead. I'd just love to know what that *something* was, but it must have indebted Snape to Dumbledore. I think this is the point at which DD offers him a teaching post at Hogwarts, and that part of the deal is that Snape continues undercover as a DE spy. Snape, as a member of OotP, must be aware of the complete prophecy. If he really wants to stop DeathEating for good, he must realise his only chance of escaping from this highly dangerous double-agent spying-game, without getting caught and dying a traitor's death like Regulus, is for him to protect and preserve Harry from any *real* harm, so that our TeenageEternalHero can fulfill the prophecy and Vanquish The Dark Lord. How it must grate on Snape that only Harry can release him from this awful situation! That would account for Snape taking every opportunity to be petty and nasty to Harry in school, while also ensuring he does not fall off jinxed broomsticks from a great height. digger From vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz Wed Aug 13 13:30:00 2003 From: vinnia_chrysshallie at yahoo.co.nz (=?iso-8859-1?q?Vinnia?=) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:30:00 +1200 (NZST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: James and Lily's Occupations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813133000.70015.qmail@web41214.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76889 Joe asked: I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts about what James and Lily's occupations were. Me : I was reading the Snape's worst memory when I had an interesting thought. Some hundred posts ago, it was mentioned that there's a similarity between what James did, and the DE's muggle torture in GoF. Could it be.... James Potter was a death eater? Maybe Dumbledore asked him to be a DE, to get information for the order? Think about it, before Snape changed side, there must be someone in LV fold to inform the order of what he's up to. Harry is very good at throwing imperius curse. Snape says that this is related to occlumency. So Harry could have inherited this ability from James, James was probably a superb occlumens. Probably James was given a task to kill Dumbledore or someone and he failed. He escaped LV's death penalty. He then left the DE, and managed to stay alive. That's defying LV twice. Then, of course, he married Lily the muggle-born. No wonder LV killed James! The period between James leaving the DE and Snape turning good was the time when LV killed the order's one by one. The order didnot have any spy to forewarned them. That's also why nobody in the order tells HArry about James. They know that James was not really a DE, but still, it would be hard on Harry. What do you think? Vinnia http://search.yahoo.com.au - Yahoo! Search - Looking for more? Try the new Yahoo! Search From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 13:47:37 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:47:37 -0000 Subject: Who's going to betray the Order? In-Reply-To: <3F39BA30.7020303@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > a_reader2003 wrote: > > > > CW: I'd put my money on Hermione. She wouldn't do it on purpose, but > > it would be a repeat of the broomstick episode. She'd think she was > > doing something for the best, but then screw up big time. > > Hermione did not "screw up big time" in the broomstick. She was > 100% correct to be suspicious of it, and McGonagall agreed. That > it turned out to be harmless does not mean that the suspicions > were unjustified on the evidence available to her at the time. > > > I think she > > shows so much reluctance to go along with his various dangerous > > sounding schemes, that there's going to be one time too many, and she > > makes the wrong decision, supposedly for his own good, and provokes > > disaster. > > Harry's schemes are not just dangerous-sounding, they are > dangerous. His using the fireplace in Umbridge's office to talk > to Sirius the first time, just so he could feel better about his > father, was incredibly stupid. His insistence on "rescuing" > Sirius, despite many warnings that it was a ruse, did provoke > disaster. It is Harry, not Hermione, who repeatedly makes the > wrong decisions. CW replies: My point in the post (75897)was essentially about the interplay of the two types of emotional temperament, and its potential for disaster. Of course the tiresome girl is always right, and hot-headed Harry always does the first thing that comes into his head, stampedes in all directions and gets himself and everyone else into trouble. In this, he and Sirius are pretty similar, and they irritate most of the females around them, who prefer the attractions of cool logic and doing what's right and best (yawn, some pretty stereotypic stuff here about the intrinsic natures of men and women). But I think the conclusion of OotP, and Harry surviving Voldemort's possession is generally in favour of Harry's temperament being the winner at the end of the day. I'm afraid I can just see Hermione taking a principled decision on something that just turns out to be a big mistake plot-wise. Of course she will be utterly mortified and possibly even die in her attempts to put things right (hope, hope), but I still think it could happen. I even think the plot twist might fulfil a morbid amusement in JKR, who supposedly has based Hermione on her younger self, whom she has described as 'swotty'. Maybe she'd like to point up the shortcomings of that particular approach to life ? From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 13:49:06 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:49:06 -0000 Subject: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76891 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > > That's a good point, and I never realized it until now. But I've > become a bit inured to Harry "leaving out things" every time he has > to convey some information to someone. It's almost a rule now - if > he's asked an important question, he'll automatically tell only half > the story. (Dumbledore would save a lot of time if he just assumed > he'd have to beat the truth out of Harry at every interview.) Maybe > Rowling has realized that this kink of Harry's is starting to get > dull, because now she's upped the ante by also turning him into a > compulsive liar. Me: I think he's just used to a)being on his guard and b)being told off any time he lets something slip he shouldn't. He just doesn't want to start any trouble. Like when he doesn't want anyone to find out he gave money to the twins 'cause he's afraid he'll start a row in the W. family that will alienate the twins from Molly and Arthur (which I think is paranoia set off by Harry not having a family file in his brain to refer to). Then there are the many times he watches what he says because he's afraid he'll get kicked out of Hogwarts (Harry hoping he'll get to stay and be assistant game keeper). I guess what I'm trying to say is that he's pretty much used to the fact that whatever he really wants to say will get him a world of hurt. I think that's why he keeps the real Harry to himself. James Redmont, who will defend my ickle Harry to the ends of the Earth...(I'm here for ya, Harry!) From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 13:54:52 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:54:52 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape In-Reply-To: <3F3A3C0B.7010306@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: bad due to his hatered of Harry, perhaps after DD dies) > > > > digger writes: > > I too am still pondering Snape's position. > > He is in an interesting and complex situation. Having (I imagine) become > a DE when he was full of hate and desiring revenge (never a good time > for career decisions), some of which was aimed, with good cause, at > James Potter, something made Snape change his mind about Voldemort and > turn to Dumbledore instead. I'd just love to know what that *something* > was, but it must have indebted Snape to Dumbledore. I think this is the > point at which DD offers him a teaching post at Hogwarts, and that part > of the deal is that Snape continues undercover as a DE spy. > > Snape, as a member of OotP, must be aware of the complete prophecy. If > he really wants to stop DeathEating for good, he must realise his only > chance of escaping from this highly dangerous double-agent spying- game, > without getting caught and dying a traitor's death like Regulus, is for > him to protect and preserve Harry from any *real* harm, so that our > TeenageEternalHero can fulfill the prophecy and Vanquish The Dark Lord. > > How it must grate on Snape that only Harry can release him from this > awful situation! That would account for Snape taking every opportunity > to be petty and nasty to Harry in school, while also ensuring he does > not fall off jinxed broomsticks from a great height. > > digger Severus here: At first Severus may have been harsh and condescending towards Harry in order to goade him into pushing harder at his studies, and thus becoming a better weapon. Snape may be being petty and nasty to keep up his image as a evil person as not to compromise his standing with the death eaters. Karkoroff's knowledge of his good side is not much to worry about, since he turned in a few DE to save his own skin at the prison. The minute he thought LV was back he took off as fast as he could. There is little chance for him to tell on Snape unless he is caught by the DE's and brought before LV to be killed. As far as LV knowing that he tried to save Harry from the broom incident, Snape could say he had to, so as to keep his good standing with DD, he didn't really succeed in saving Harry, Hermione is the one to facilitated that when she lit Snape on fire. So Snape could say he was only going through the motions of saving Harry to save face in front of DD, but really didn't intend to, so as to appease LV. We could speculate almost any situation as to make Snape the good guy in hiding or the DE in hiding, but I think IMHO, he is going to be a very important figure in the destruction of LV, with taking Harry's back. He was a DE and he is not unknowledgable of the unforgivable curses, he may be able to use the dark arts to benefit the OotP. From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 13 13:55:33 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:55:33 -0000 Subject: Rise of the DA was (fading of the Order & Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76893 > > dan wrote: > > And my sense is that the DA will, in some > > > measure, supplant the OOP. > > Yes, mine too. > > In fact it is clear (IMO) that the Order is flawed, the crucial > > weakness being Dumbledore's use of knowledge from which Harry > > suffers in OOP (the book). That Sirius, Molly and the others have no real compass for deciding how much to tell Harry is very > telling, IMO, and indicates the bankruptcy of the order to act as the harbinger of Dumbledorian inclusiveness. Wanda says: > Would it really be a good thing, story-wise, though, for the DA to > become the main engine of the fight against Voldemort? > But I think to shunt these adults aside because they weren't fully successful in OotP would be a mistake. The last thing I want is to see HP turn into a Renaissance Fayre version of "Spy Kids". Now me: I agree with you all and would like to add a thought. The DA will become instrumental in assisting Harry 'vanquish' Voldemort. Possibly without the Order. The Order is in pieces right now, despite what Lupin say in OotP about it being different this time around. Last time the DE were picking of the Order one by one and I see it happening again. (Assuming the DE get out of Azkanban) The DA on the other hand are protected at Hogwarts and untouchable at least for two more years. So my thought is this: The new Sorting Hat song warned of the danger of the Houses of Hogwarts splitting and the school being in danger of destruction because of this. Bear with me on this one please. The weakening of Hogwarts leaves it open to penetration by outside forces namely Voldemort. I wonder if Harry the DA will have to fight Voldemort on Hogwarts ground? Vanquishing Voldemort, saving Hogwarts and including possible a redemption of Draco Malfoy by Harry as all four houses have to unite to save the school. Mandy From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 13 13:55:57 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:55:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish References: Message-ID: <004801c361a2$9ff2edc0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76894 From: jwcpgh --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, <> Most of the Order actively show they are using him, don't like him, and are not his friends, so what would be the attraction, if those were the reasons he decided to betray LV and the DEs?<> > > Dawn Laura: Ah, the ever-puzzling Severus<> Sometimes people who have been deprived of a healthy emotional environment go looking for the love they didn't get, and they become very social. And sometimes it's the opposite. Snape has learned not to trust anyone except himself. <>Dawn's point about SS creating his teacher persona is a very good one. He may not be liked (I wonder if even Draco really *likes* him) but he's damn well feared. No one's going to mess with this guy ever again. Of course, no one's going to invite him over for tea, either. <> I don't agree that most of the people in the Order don't like Snape-I don't see any evidence of this in the text. The only person who really hated Snape is (apparently) gone. No one else fights with him. Even Remus is trying to get along with him. So here's his chance to break out of his isolation with people who understand and respect the difficulty of what he's doing. Will he allow them to break through his isolation? We'll see. ------------- Perhaps it might have been better put that this is what Snape perceives as people's reaction to him. I see Lupin's banter as a (usually) good natured attempt to be friendly towards Snape, drawing on shared memories and the like, but Snape has more to fear and dislike about those days than Lupin, so sees it as a taunt. None of the others are particularly friendly, but Snape isn't either - again, he has what he sees as good reason to dislike Aurors and Unspeakables. He also probably understands better than most that any of them could become *acceptable casualties*, sacrificed for the greater good, so chooses not to become close (something he learned under LV?). He probably suspects that he'd be the first they'd throw to the Fates, given the choice. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 13:57:12 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:57:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Reading Minds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76895 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelberri56" > wrote: > > I'm sorry if this has already been said, but: > > > > How did Dumbledore know that Voldemort had possesed Ginny, > > at then end of CoS... when Harry stopped talking because he > > didn't want to say that Ginny had done all the Petrifying? ... > > bboy_mn: Or perhaps deductive reasoning. Maybe when he saw the Enchanted Diary, he used his many years of wisdom and experience to understand what kind of object it was. Maybe he combined that with Harry's story and the events that had occurred, put them in a tumbler, shook them all up, and came to the logical conclusion. > > Also, in PS/SS, when Hermione and Harry go up to the North > > Tower to drop off Norbert, and then leave the invisibility cloak, > > how did Dumbledore know where it was to return it to Harry's > > bed? ...edited... > > > > "angelberri56" > bboy_mn: Maybe Dumbledore just assumed that a boy known to have an invisibility cloak who was caught sneaking around the castle afterhours, might have been using the cloak and might have ditched it to keep his captors from finding it and confiscating it. It's not that unlikely a conclusion to draw. > acoteucla: > > Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry "closer than he > realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. ...edited... Dumbledore is > (yet another) unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we see > during Harry's transfiguration OWL. bboy_mn: Or maybe, Dumbledore is up in his office using a crystal ball as a remote viewing device. Or maybe he has the house-elves spying on Harry. Or maybe he has student 'moles'. Or maybe he gets constant reports from the staff. While I have no doubt that a powerful wizard, and a former Transfiguration teacher would most likely be an animagus, I really do think Dumbledore has more to do than hang around all day as a 'fly on the wall'. He has a school to run. He is the head of the wizard's council of Justice and Law; wizangamot. He is one of the top members of the International Confederation of Warlock. He is talented, wise, and experienced, and his counsel is sought by many people. So while I have no doubt that he is keeping a close eye on Harry, I really don't think the BUG animagus idea is the most efficient way of doing it. In fact, I think the crystal ball remote viewing thing is a very clever way of watching Harry. He can do it whenenver he has a spare minute, and he never has to leave his office. He can probably do it when he is out of the castle. Seems like a very convinient method. But then, it's just a thought. bboy_mn From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 13 14:07:21 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:07:21 -0000 Subject: James' Quidditch position? (was: houses/ snape's worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76896 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nick M." wrote: > Mandy said: > > Rowling was asked: What position did James play on the Gryffindor > > Quidditch team? Was he seeker like Harry, or something different? > > Her answer: James was Chaser. > > Something to think about: In the Snape's pensieve scene - James was > showing off his extreme talents with the Snitch... it doesn't make > sense to me why he would be a Chaser if he was THAT good with > catching Snitches... > > "Nick M." Mandy again: I disagree as I think the position James played is irrelevant to the fact he was messing about with a Snitch. The Snitch is small enough to steal, pocket, pull out, play with and show off to anyone who cared. He could hardly do that with a Quaffle. All James wanted was to been seen with a representation of the game of Quiditch to remind everyone what a great player he was (or thought he was) on the team. Also I have to agree with Ginny in OotP and have always thought being a Chaser was much more exciting than being a Seeker, as the Seeker spend most of the game hovering and waiting to catch a glimpse of the Snitch only charging into action when it was seen. The chaser is a more active position to play. Mandy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 14:15:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:15:24 -0000 Subject: Peeves and The Bloody Baron In-Reply-To: <8.3b33acc2.2c6b8008@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynx412 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/13/03 2:40:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > aussie_lol at y... writes: > > > > SUGGESTION: ...eited... so is the ghost Baron Slytherin, > > Salazar's father, who was killed by a mob of muggles? > Lynx: > > ... I had always theorized that the BB was Salazar, keeping an eye > on his house. ...edited... > > Cheryl the Lynx bboy_mn: I will accept that the Baron could be a Slytherin. When I say that I;m referring to a member of the Slytherin family, not the house, although he could have been a member of the house too, but that's not the key point. But I don't think he would be older that Salazar; personally I would say, if he is a member of the family, he is many generations younger that Salazar. Also, is the royal title 'Baron', a title of English nobility? I always thought 'Baron' was a German title of nobility; as in Baron Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron', a very successful World War I fighter pilot. Just a thought. bboy_mn From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 13 14:31:53 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:31:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves and The Bloody Baron References: Message-ID: <005501c361a7$a4fbbd60$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76898 From: Steve <<<>Also, is the royal title 'Baron', a title of English nobility? I always thought 'Baron' was a German title of nobility; as in Baron Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron', a very successful World War I fighter pilot. Just a thought. bboy_mn -------------- It's the lowest rank of British peerage (nobility). Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 13 14:32:32 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:32:32 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76899 Melis wrote: > > Plus he's Dumbledores favorite which will help, providing Harry > gets over Dumbledores behaviour towards him from year 5. > > Golly wrote: > It is simple let us just ask someone who is British and went to a > school with a house system. Anyone go to Eton? > > Obviously this system is modeled after a real system with a little > magic sorting thrown in. > > How does the real system work? Hi, I'm British and went to Private school. It wasn't Eton (as I'm female and Eton is boys only) but we did have Prefects, Headgirl and Houses. >From what I remember you do not have to have been a Prefect to be a Headgirl but it is unusual. The Headboy/girl is the equivalent to Valedictorian intelligence, which James had, leadership qualities, again James had that to, and sporting achievement, again James wins. The only thing he was lacking was compassion, understanding, patience and respect for those below him. So if James is supposed to have had this 360-degree personality change that Sirius and Lupin hinted at in his 6th year I imagine it could have happened. It seems to me that James would have not been suitable for the role of Prefect in the 5th year, as he was already a bully and extremely arrogant and no sane teacher would give a child like that a Prefect badge. Why Malfoy got one I will never understand. Does Lucius influence reach into Hogwarts too? To Snape possibly but doesn't Dumbledore choose the Prefects? If James showed a remarkable change in year 6, perhaps he just grew up, but it seemed to have convinced Lily as well as the faculty he could have been given the Headboyship. Mandy From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 13 14:35:48 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:35:48 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Peeves and The Bloody Baron References: <005501c361a7$a4fbbd60$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: <005b01c361a8$31559c40$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 76900 From: The Crashing Boar From: Steve <<<>Also, is the royal title 'Baron', a title of English nobility? I always thought 'Baron' was a German title of nobility; as in Baron Manfred von Richthofen, 'The Red Baron', a very successful World War I fighter pilot. Just a thought. bboy_mn -------------- It's the lowest rank of British peerage (nobility). Dawn PS It's not a Royal title or ranking, there's a difference. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 14:39:15 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:39:15 -0000 Subject: James' Quidditch position? (was: houses/ snape's worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76901 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nick M." wrote: > > Mandy said: > > > Rowling was asked: What position did James play on the Gryffindor > > > Quidditch team? Was he seeker like Harry, or something different? > > > Her answer: James was Chaser. > > > > Something to think about: In the Snape's pensieve scene - James was > > showing off his extreme talents with the Snitch... it doesn't make > > sense to me why he would be a Chaser if he was THAT good with > > catching Snitches... > > > > "Nick M." Severus here: It's mentioned in the book that James was the seeker for his team, and in the movie the plaque had him listed as house seeker, so why would JKR say he was a chaser? The movie seemed to try and make it a point that James was a seeker and Harry was the youngest seeker in a century, so JKR changed her mind between the time the book was written and the movie was produced? Hermione says "You won't make a fool of yourself. It's in your blood" and then leads them to the plaque (movie). I remember her or Ron saying something along the same line in the book SS, and Gred and Forge teasing him abit about how badly players get hurt, and how the players sometimes dissapear for a month or two. Or am I mistaken and confusing the movie with the book and vice versa? From dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 13 14:41:29 2003 From: dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca (Lee) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:41:29 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76902 *snip* > > Darn, you're right. I was confusing being HB with the statement > Molly made when Ron was made prefect "that's everyone in the family!" > (Fred or George then said "What are we, next door neighbors?" ;-) > Being a graduate of US public school system, I fear, has permanently > hindered my abilty to keep that rather important distinction straight. > > ~Margaret But this doesn't include Ginny either, what about her? What if she becomes a Prefect? I think Molly was just being Zealous about Ron's badge that day, but still, its almost like Ginny's presence is almost an after thought. I don't know, that just sort of stood out to me. O.o Lee From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 13 14:07:51 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:07:51 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! (forget the internet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > > wrote: > > < > When did Harry *ever* get a wand spell to work properly the first > > time he tried it?) > > < > > This post just made me think, "can't wizards use ordinary weapons > > like guns etc.? Is their only way of fighting using wands and > spells?" They should learn. Imagine it like that indiana jones movie. Harry pulls his wand... BANG! He's dead. One shot to the head. Bye bye Harry. Great scene... Bad for plot. I say they just give Draco a portkey. Get Draco to slip it somehow into Harry's stuff or get Harry to take it. And then have it set into space. Bang! No more Harry. > > > Seriously (?possibly the wrong word in this context), I have always > thought that JKR has evaded the computer and Internet issue. It is > stated several times that Dud has a computer, and Harry must be aware > of the Internet - the books are set in the mid to late 90s after all, > and he has spent at least five years at a Muggle school. I refuse to > believe that he and Hermione don't know about computers and the > communication possibilities they offer. >Come on JKR.. Well how about that very new-fangled invention called a TELEPHONE! Really cutting edge I know but.... I will never understand why Hermione didn't just look Harry up if she was so worried about him after first year. If he wasn't writing back, why not call? Obviously Ron's parents were worried and seemed to believe he wasn't being treated well. Why does Ron make the call? Sure it is funny but, why wouldn't he just write to Hermione... And why doesn't Hermione ever call later and just not say anything about Hogwarts. She could say she lives down the street. She's a smart girl... (or so we are lead to believe). Herm, You're down with all that muggle stuff, right? Dad says they talk through this thing called a fellytone. He has one in the garage. It is made out of some weird material, I've never seen before. But I'm not sure I can work it. You every heard of it? Can you get your hands on one? I'm worried about Harry. Perhaps you could call him and ask what is up? I'm sure he wouldn't just not write back, would he? Mum and dad seem worried about him too. Write back with any suggestions, Ron Golly From sylviablundell at aol.com Wed Aug 13 15:01:12 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:01:12 -0000 Subject: More Jane Austen Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76904 Emma is undoubtedly Hermione - clever, charming but thinks she knows everything and has a right to order other people's lives. Mr. Knightley, the only person who dares to criticise Emma in any way - could be Snape, possibly Ron. Miss Bates, muddle-headed gossip - who else but Bertha Jorkins. Harriet - sweet little idiot who finally grows up, is Ginny Dear motherly Mrs. Weston is Molly Weasley. Mr. Elton, slimy flatterer that he is, could be Percy. Frank Churchill - a Slytherin type if I ever saw one, but who in Slytherin is capable of fooling Hermione as Frank fools Emma? Can't find parallels for Jane Fairfax or Mr. Woodhouse (my own darling favourite character). Anyone help? From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 15:02:18 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:02:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76905 For all you H/H shippers out there, I don't think it will happen, at least not until LV is out of the way. Harry will not purposely put any of his friends in harms way and falling for Hermione would be putting a bullseye on her forehead, and this would be true for any girl he has intense feelings for. I know Harry lead his group into a fight at the DOM, but they would not let him go alone. Harry will remain single for the following two books at his own decision. IMHO I think Harry is going to pull away from the trio so as to protect them, that doesn't mean his friends will allow this. This will put a strain on the feelings Hermione has for Harry and may push her towards Ron (a shoulder to cry on). Ginny will be the one to pull Harry's head out and point it out to him that they will be forever in danger and no matter his feelings for any one girl in particular. That is when Harry will notice Ginny in a different light (red hair and green eyes like his mom? good with charms like his mom? pretty good as a seeker like him? etc.). Who knows? Harry's girl may not have been even mentioned in the books yet. We can only speculate. That is why this is so much fun. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 15:26:30 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:26:30 -0000 Subject: Origin of word Muggles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76906 Has anyone come up with a theory of where JKR got the world 'muggles'? Can't find anything on Fantastic posts or by searching the archive. I came across a reference to Muggletonians today, which turned out to be an obscure UK religious sect in the 1600s. Did not seem a very obvious source ! Any ideas ? CW From akhillin at rcn.com Wed Aug 13 15:28:39 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:28:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Jane Austen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813152839.64085.qmail@web41807.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76907 sylviablundell2001 wrote: Frank Churchill - a Slytherin type if I ever saw one, but who in Slytherin is capable of fooling Hermione as Frank fools Emma? akh: Maybe he could be Gilderoy Lockhart - he certainly hoodwinked Hermione early on. Can't find parallels for Jane Fairfax or Mr. Woodhouse (my own darling favourite character). Anyone help? akh: I'm a big fan of Mr. Woodhouse, too. I suppose Mrs. Figg MIGHT have some similarities, but she's not nearly as endearing as Mr. Woodhouse. I'll have to think some more about Jane Fairfax. Fortunately, I'm on vacation right now, so I can ruminate all I want! Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ajlboston at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 15:27:59 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:27:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76908 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: Well... not to print everyone's text... After GOF I thought, well R/H is obvious, at least to the point that Ron has something for Hermione and she realizes it, but he won't admit it. After OOP I thought, well, that was a surprise, that seemed more H/H. But it is CLEAR now that Ron does have something for Hermione. Upon my second reading, it seemed that she not only realizes this, but is frustrated with his immaturity on various levels. I remember how, er, good students saw their peers who might have been nice or popular but blew off homework or copied notes. There was just not as much respect. I also am reminded of author John Granger's idea that due to the connotations behind Hermione's name, there will be a triangle. That seemed silly in GOF, when Harry was bored spending time with H. during the cold war with Ron. But one poster here had the idea that it could simply mean that Ron is jealous or perceives that H. might like Harry more, and that would be enough to make it a triangle. (even if H/H remain platonic supporters, at least with enough friendship understanding and maturity that Ron has not caught up with by OOP). Anyhow, let's see what happens. Harry's got a lot on his plate right now if he's thinking of Quidditch and homework as rubbish when Death Eaters escape, so he may not wish to focus on girls. A.J. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 15:29:02 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:29:02 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76909 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > In the Potterverse are vampires considered to be human? > > Yes, in mythology they are classed as derived from humans, but does > this apply in the WW? > I've searched the likely sites seeking clarification but can't find any > canon or near canon references. > > It makes a difference to the theory of Snape being one. According to > MBAWTFT, only humans are allowed wands. > > Suppositions based on accepted lore are not particularly helpful, JKR > tends to put her own twist on folk legends. > > Can anybody find a canon reference? > > Kneasy Severus Here: So far JKR's touch on vampires has been very light and unsupportive of Snape being one or even half one (visions of Blade dance in my mind). Vampires, the mythalogical creatures of the night, are either explained as a human that has evolved to a higher stage or as a human that has contracted a disease like condition through possesion by a spirit that lusts after human blood. This has been supported through beliefs predating the birth of Christ. Vampires are also the only supernatural being to have tales in every major culture in the world. The scientific reason vampires do not like the sun is because it destroys red blood cells. Same goes for garlic and silver. People inflicted with a certain blood ailment that inpeads their production af red blood cells are extremely sun sensitive and must stay out of direct sunlight or suffer nasty reprocussions. Since JKR seems to do her homework when dealing with mythical creatures and beasts, we can only hope that she will stay semi true to vampires. And if she does then Snape is not a vampire in any stretch af the term. Snape prefers the dark clothing and the dark arts (can anyone say image conscious?), and IMHO I believe he is Gothic in nature, the brooding, depressed, unhappy person he is portraid to be in the books. And we goths do prefer black over any other colour, even on really hot days. But I always go for lighter colours myself and save the blacks for the night time. Severus "night-time goth" Snape From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 16:01:01 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:01:01 -0000 Subject: St Mungo's Secret messages? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76910 I will give the obligatory "if this was brought up before I apoligize" statement... that said. Taking a look back at the St. Mungo's visit there are some hidden messages there. Warnings of events to come. I found this one... but havn't been able to make sense of any others. The one I found is as follows: "They climbed a flight of stairs and entered the "Creature-Induced Injuries" corridor, where the second door on the right bore the words 'DANGEROUS' DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES. " Now, picture that as it might appear on a sign: CREATURE-INDUCED INJURIES DANGEROUS DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES Looking only at the first word of each line, you get (phonetically) Kreacher Dangerous Die Sirius. Anyone else get this. And can anyone get any other predictions from this? From DMCourt11 at cs.com Wed Aug 13 16:08:13 2003 From: DMCourt11 at cs.com (bookraptor11) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:08:13 -0000 Subject: Origin of word Muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Has anyone come up with a theory of where JKR got the world 'muggles'? > Can't find anything on Fantastic posts or by searching the archive. I > came across a reference to Muggletonians today, which turned out to > be an obscure UK religious sect in the 1600s. Did not seem a very > obvious source ! Any ideas ? > > CW I don't know if this has ever been mentioned before, but there was a children's book published in the 1960's I think (I read it when I was 10 or 11 back in the early 70s), The Gammage Cup. The main character's name was Muggles. I remembered the book when the lawsuit with the other author came up a few years back. Donna From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 13 16:14:43 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:14:43 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: <004801c361a2$9ff2edc0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > Perhaps it might have been better put that this is what Snape perceives as people's reaction to him. I see Lupin's banter as a (usually) good natured attempt to be friendly towards Snape, drawing on shared memories and the like, but Snape has more to fear and dislike about those days than Lupin, so sees it as a taunt. None of the others are particularly friendly, but Snape isn't either - again, he has what he sees as good reason to dislike Aurors and Unspeakables. > > He also probably understands better than most that any of them could become *acceptable casualties*, sacrificed for the greater good, so chooses not to become close (something he learned under LV?). He probably suspects that he'd be the first they'd throw to the Fates, given the choice. > I thought I detected a certain warmth in his reunion with McGonagall at the end of OotP. He interrupted one of his favourite pastimes, punishing Harry, in order to stride over to greet her when she arrived, and I think she seemed glad to see him too, though neither of them is the demonstrative type. The little exchange that followed, where she added points so Snape could then subtract them, and thus do no damage, seemed to me rather playful. I definitely got the feeling they were teasing each other; in the earlier books, they were primarily school colleagues, and shared the competitiveness between their houses. Now, they share more important things, and this business of points gained and lost is recognized by both to be rather trifling in the long run. But they must put on a show for the benefit of the students, of course, particularly Draco and his chums. I think Harry is so numbed by everything he's been through, he doesn't even notice what's going on. Wanda From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 16:27:25 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 09:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: <004801c361a2$9ff2edc0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: <20030813162725.67204.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76913 snip he has what he sees as good reason to dislike > Aurors and Unspeakables. > > He also probably understands better than most that > any of them could become *acceptable casualties*, > sacrificed for the greater good, so chooses not to > become close (something he learned under LV?). He > probably suspects that he'd be the first they'd > throw to the Fates, given the choice. snip Snape has to have a very strong inner emotional and mental state of mind. Just endure the constant hate and dislike, to know he's expendable, to know he will be killed (assuming, that is) by Voldie and then denied by trusted (?) Dumbledore. The last would be hardest, in my opinion. I knew depressed people (dead now, may she rest) and there is no way Snape could be depressed. Slightly manic and scitzophrentic (sp??), definately. But then we have not seen him during private times and only through a teenage stilted perceptions. Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 13 16:34:13 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:34:13 -0000 Subject: St Mungo's Secret messages? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76914 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" wrote: > I will give the obligatory "if this was brought up before I > apoligize" statement...that said. > > Taking a look back at the St. Mungo's visit there are some hidden > messages there. Warnings of events to come. > I found this one... but havn't been able to make sense of any others.The one I found is as follows: "They climbed a flight of stairs and entered the "Creature-Induced Injuries" corridor, where the second door on the right bore the words 'DANGEROUS' DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES. " > > Now, picture that as it might appear on a sign: > CREATURE-INDUCED INJURIES > DANGEROUS > DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: > SERIOUS BITES > > Looking only at the first word of each line, you get (phonetically) > Kreacher Dangerous Die Sirius. > Anyone else get this. And can anyone get any other predictions from > this? I have to admit that's quite amazing but surly a coincidence? I know JKR loves to put clues and red hearings through out her books but not ones that give away a major event so clearly. I believe JKR is more subtle than that. Unless she is having fun with us knowing there are so many fans who love to dissect every detail. Mandy From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 16:37:24 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:37:24 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76915 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > ] Mental liberation requires discipline. That Harry does not have, > > > yet. Will he ever? Anybody's guess. And I'll bet my second best > > > cauldron against a chocolate frog that V. enters Harrys' mind > > > again in the next book. > > > Kneasy > > Severus Here: I'll take that bet. Harry has been stumbling around in a fog of self relization for the first five books. Wouldn't you have been a little more that curious as for as why LV would not leave you alone? And kept trying to kill you? I think Harry was in a state of self denial, trying to forget about it and make it will go away. Now that he has been named by the prophecy and heard the prophecy himself, his self discipline is going to soar. He has a cause now, he is the chosen one to save all wizard kind. When it came to the tri-wizard competition, Harry busted his hump learning new spells to help him out and he succeeded in his quest and yes he was helped out by his friends also. I will agree occulemencie (sp?) was not his strong side but as it was said I think LV will not want to go there anymore, LV will find it painful. Remeber Harry is quite powerful in his magical ability, his patronus is superior to many other full grown wizards, and he did force LV's AK beam back into LV's wand, it was his power behind his wand that enabled him to do that. I think we will see a much older Harry after the summer is done. From alaskamy at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 16:41:06 2003 From: alaskamy at hotmail.com (kneazelkid) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:41:06 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore mystery -- please explain Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76916 OK I have obvisouly missed somthing. I understand that DD would avoid Harry after the whole Arthur-Weasley-snake-incident-combined-with- possible-V-possession. But why was he avoiding Harry in the first half of the book? I know this is probably simple and I just missed it but I'm a little confused and figured yall could clear me up quickly. Thanks, kneazelkid -- who is usually pretty good about these things From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 16:42:30 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:42:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76917 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > I would now like to add my own addition to Dumbledore's increasing > list of heartless but necessary actions: he is responsible for James > & Lily's death. > > There has been speculation that Snape is the one who overheard the > prophecy in the Hog's Head, and reported it to LV. All renditions of > this theory (that I have heard) involve Snape switching sides AFTER > informing LV of the prophecy. I have a different take on it. > > Severus Snape, die-hard death-eater, overhears the prophecy IN ITS > ENTIRETY when Trelawney utters it in the Hog's Head. Lily Potter > should be pregnant at this point. Snape can figure out quite easily > that the Potters' child might be born around the end of July. His > life-debt to James comes into play, forcing him to renounce his > loyalty to LV and help Dumbledore. Dumbledore recognizes the life- > debt, and thus trusts Snape's conversion. > > Upon Harry's birth, the two of them cook up a plan that will help > bring the prophecy to fruition. Dumbledore instructs Snape to relate > the prophecy to LV, but ONLY THE FIRST PART. Snape is to pretend > that he was kicked out of the Hog's Head before he could hear the > entire prophecy. > > This plan works perfectly. LV thinks that he is supposed to go kill > Harry now, not knowing the dangers of doing so. Due to this mistake, > > 1 - LV's body is destroyed, and it takes him about 13 years to gain a > permanent new one. In the mean-time, Harry has a chance to grow up. > 2 - LV passes on some of his abilities to Harry. These abilities > have kept Harry and his friends alive numerous times. > > There's just one draw-back to this neat and clever plan: Lily & James > will have to die. Noble, heartless Dumbledore knows that this is > well worth the price, however. Severus Snape agrees to the plan > because James would want it this way (so his actions do not > contradict his life-debt to James). Instead, his life-debt passes on > to Harry, which is why he worked so hard to keep Harry alive in SS/PS. > > Thoughts? Criticisms? KathyK: Just some comments/questions. Dumbledore tells Harry that the prophecy could have pertained to Neville as well as Harry, at least how Voldemort heard it. Does this mean, then, that Dumbledore and Snape chose which of the children Voldemort should go after? Maybe Snape didn't know about the Longbottoms but had kept an eye on the Potters because of his life debt to James. But Dumbledore surely knew. So Dumbledore gives Snape the duty of telling Voldemort part of the prophecy and does Snape tell him it's James and Lily? Does Voldemort know both about the Potters and the Longbottoms? He must know who has defied him three times, at least. Perhaps he's unaware of the Longbottoms pregnancy and Dumbledore is in no hurry to let him know. How does Dumbledore ensure that Voldemort goes after the Potters? I guess what I'm really getting at is, why did Dumbledore choose Harry over Neville in this scenario? KathyK (all for noble and heartless Dumbledore) From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 16:46:31 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:46:31 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I thought I detected a certain warmth in his reunion with McGonagall > at the end of OotP....(snip) seemed to me rather playful. I definitely > got the feeling they were teasing each other; in the earlier books, > they were primarily school colleagues, and shared the > competitiveness between their houses. Now, they share more > important things, and this business of points gained and lost is > recognized by both to be rather trifling in the long run. > > Wanda CW's horrified thought: Perhaps this is the married couple at Hogwarts that has been anticipated ??? No, I have just come to my senses, she is supposed to be 70+ and Snape is in his mid-30s. Phew......... From watsola79 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 17:05:20 2003 From: watsola79 at yahoo.com (watsola79) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:05:20 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" > wrote: > > > > > I would now like to add my own addition to Dumbledore's increasing > > list of heartless but necessary actions: he is responsible for > James > > & Lily's death. > > > > There has been speculation that Snape is the one who overheard the > > prophecy in the Hog's Head, and reported it to LV. All renditions > of > > this theory (that I have heard) involve Snape switching sides AFTER > > informing LV of the prophecy. I have a different take on it. > > > > Severus Snape, die-hard death-eater, overhears the prophecy IN ITS > > ENTIRETY when Trelawney utters it in the Hog's Head. Lily Potter > > should be pregnant at this point. Snape can figure out quite > easily > > that the Potters' child might be born around the end of July. His > > life-debt to James comes into play, forcing him to renounce his > > loyalty to LV and help Dumbledore. Dumbledore recognizes the life- > > debt, and thus trusts Snape's conversion. > > *snip* Forgive me if I missed something, but why, in your theory, do you state that Snape owes James a life-debt? Lana Lovegood From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 13 17:06:31 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:06:31 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall References: Message-ID: <3F3A7017.000003.55841@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 76920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I thought I detected a certain warmth in his reunion with McGonagall > at the end of OotP....(snip) seemed to me rather playful. I definitely > got the feeling they were teasing each other; in the earlier books, > they were primarily school colleagues, and shared the > competitiveness between their houses. Now, they share more > important things, and this business of points gained and lost is > recognized by both to be rather trifling in the long run. > CW's horrified thought: Perhaps this is the married couple at Hogwarts that has been anticipated ??? No, I have just come to my senses, she is supposed to be 70+ and Snape is in his mid-30s. Phew......... Me - I agree that they seem close - I think they're probably good friends under it all. The quidditch rivalry seemed more like friendly rivalry than the inter-house *hate* we see from the kids. Personally I don't think they're married *but* you have to remember that while 70 seems old to us muggles in wizarding terms she's middle-aged. 70-35 is really only the same age gap as a woman in her mid thirties with a guy in his early twenties (not that it corresponds exactly because while they seem to age slower/live longer Snape is of course a lot more experienced than most twenty year olds - reading that back I did *not* mean what that sounds like, get your minds out of the gutter ). Probably unusual but not unheard of and not really icky. I don't get that feel from them - although I wouldn't be overly shocked if they did turn out to be married. I get more of friendship vibe coming from them. Since McGonagall would have taught Snape I think that says something about him that she can treat him as an equal in the way she seems to. While I wouldn't expect her to deliberately look down on him/patronise him it wouldn't be surprising for her still to vaguely see him as he was at school (although they have had quite a few years to get beyond that) K From C_fax at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 17:06:22 2003 From: C_fax at hotmail.com (ceefax2002) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:06:22 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumenc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76921 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nick M." wrote: > Sue wrote: > > My own question is - if this guy, Snape is so > > crash hot in Occlumency, why does he need the Pensieve at all to > > hide his thoughts from a mere student? > > Melinda: > > From a teenage point of view, everything is done because of the > > teen. Maybe Snape didn't use the pensieve to keep Harry from > seeing > > those memories - after all he left the other ones Harry did access > > directly, where he was a child cowering in the corner. Maybe he > > removed them to temper his own reaction to Harry. He knew what he > > was doing was important, and knew he had to keep cool-headed while > > working with him. Perhaps putting the memory in the pensieve > keeps > > him for remembering just how much he hated James. > > > > Of course, when he pulled Harry out, it was no longer a matter of > > hating Harry for something James did - Harry violated Snapes > privacy, > > and in Snapes eyes is probably becoming more like his father. > > > > Hi everybody, first post here, so please don't AK me if this was > already answered... > > Is there anything in canon which says that once you put a memory > into a pensieve it is completely removed from your own memories, > until you view it again (which would create a new memory, sort of > like opening one box with another, smaller box inside it, and the > smaller box holds the goods).. > > I wouldn't think, logically speaking, that you would lose all > knowledge of a memory you place in the pensieve, but to think of it > more like a videocopy of a memory, used for objective viewing of > it... > > -Nick To quote Dumbledore (GoF, p519, UK version) "I sometimes find... that I simply have too many thoughts and memories crammed into my mind... At these times... I use the Pensieve. One simply siphons the excess thoughts from one's mind, pours them into the basin, and examines them at one's lesiure. It becomes easier to spot patterns and links, you understand, when they are in this form." To me, that suggests that the memories are being removed, otherwise the mind would still be crammed full. Ceef beginning to think she should start keeping the books next to the computer... From lbiles at flash.net Wed Aug 13 17:06:54 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:06:54 -0000 Subject: Final Battle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > > There has to be a final standoff between Harry and LV. > > Pook > > Ok, but what you need to keep in mind is that the major power that > Dumbledore says Harry possesses is LOVE. He also tells LV that there > are worse things than death. I think that Harry will have to tackle > LV with some sort of outpouring of love or affection (yuk). I cannot > imagine how this will come about. You are right, they cannot use > their wands against each other. So then what? Dumbledore explained > to Harry that the reason LV could not possess him at the MOM is > because of his overwhelming emotion over the loss of Sirius. This is > a huge weapon but as I say, I cannot picture running up to LV and > planting a big kiss on his cheek. > Any thoughts? > Susan *g* I can see it now *g* . . . right as Harry is about to head into battle with LV Dumbledore leans over and whispers into his ear the story of his great grandfather Marvolo Evans. Other than the Dursleys LV is his only living relative. Harry realizes that even a dark lord has got to be better than the Dursleys so he rushes over to LV, taking him by surprise and grabs him up in a bear hug, planting the above-questioned big kiss on his cheek! Or maybe . . . to bring in 'the hand of the other' from the prophecy he just blows him a kiss from across the room. leb -- who is being entirely cheeky and nowhere near serious about this From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 17:12:31 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:12:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76923 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "watsola79" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I would now like to add my own addition to Dumbledore's > increasing > > > list of heartless but necessary actions: he is responsible for > > James > > > & Lily's death. > > > > > > There has been speculation that Snape is the one who overheard > the > > > prophecy in the Hog's Head, and reported it to LV. All > renditions > > of > > > this theory (that I have heard) involve Snape switching sides > AFTER > > > informing LV of the prophecy. I have a different take on it. > > > > > > Severus Snape, die-hard death-eater, overhears the prophecy IN > ITS > > > ENTIRETY when Trelawney utters it in the Hog's Head. Lily Potter > > > should be pregnant at this point. Snape can figure out quite > > easily > > > that the Potters' child might be born around the end of July. > His > > > life-debt to James comes into play, forcing him to renounce his > > > loyalty to LV and help Dumbledore. Dumbledore recognizes the > life- > > > debt, and thus trusts Snape's conversion. > > > > > *snip* > > Forgive me if I missed something, but why, in your theory, do you > state that Snape owes James a life-debt? > > Lana Lovegood Severus here: He stopped me from proceding to the haunted house in Hogsmead, and kept me from being killed by Lupin, the werewolf. For this I owe him a life debt. Severus "damn my moral conscience" Snape From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 17:16:02 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:16:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "watsola79" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I would now like to add my own addition to Dumbledore's > increasing > > > list of heartless but necessary actions: he is responsible for > > James > > > & Lily's death. > > > > > > There has been speculation that Snape is the one who overheard > the > > > prophecy in the Hog's Head, and reported it to LV. All > renditions > > of > > > this theory (that I have heard) involve Snape switching sides > AFTER > > > informing LV of the prophecy. I have a different take on it. > > > > > > Severus Snape, die-hard death-eater, overhears the prophecy IN > ITS > > > ENTIRETY when Trelawney utters it in the Hog's Head. Lily Potter > > > should be pregnant at this point. Snape can figure out quite > > easily > > > that the Potters' child might be born around the end of July. > His > > > life-debt to James comes into play, forcing him to renounce his > > > loyalty to LV and help Dumbledore. Dumbledore recognizes the > life- > > > debt, and thus trusts Snape's conversion. > > > > > *snip* > > Forgive me if I missed something, but why, in your theory, do you > state that Snape owes James a life-debt? > > Lana Lovegood Geoff: "And then, your father did something Snape could never forgive." "What?" "He saved his life." "/What?/" "Yes..." said Dumbledore dreamily. "Funny, the way people's minds work, isn't it? Professor Snape couldn't bear being in your father's debt... I do believe he worked so hard to protect you this year because he felt that would make him and your father quits. Then he could go back to hating your father's memory in peace...." PS p.217 "The Man with Two Faces" chapter. From lbiles at flash.net Wed Aug 13 17:18:31 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:18:31 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > I'm starting to think Snape isn't really spying on VD. As you rightly > point out, there is too much evidence out there that Snape is with > Dumbledore. I can't imagine what he would be doing, but the prospect > of him spying directly on VD is starting to seem much more unlikely. > To tell you the truth, I don't know what the hell is going on anymore. > > Allyson Maybe Snape's job was to go and make contact with the vampires (at great personal risk) just like Hagrid's job was to go make contact with the giants. leb From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 17:18:29 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:18:29 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Laura: > I don't agree that most of the people in the Order don't like Snape- I > don't see any evidence of this in the text. The only person who > really hated Snape is (apparently) gone. No one else fights with > him. Even Remus is trying to get along with him. So here's his > chance to break out of his isolation with people who understand and > respect the difficulty of what he's doing. Will he allow them to > break through his isolation? We'll see. > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] When Harry firsts arrives at HQ, Ginny says that Bill doesn't like him {Snape} or Bill doesn't even like Snape, I know those sentences have very different connotations so could someone please specify the correct one? I don't know if his opinion changed but if the Penseive scene in GOF means anything, Moody doesn't trust Snape. Given the way Barty was able to pull of the impersonation in fourth year, I think Moody STILL doesn't trust Snape or Severus would have at least remarked on the change in behaviour. Indeed, the way Severus tells Barty!Moody that DD trusts him [Snape] seems to suggest that that is what Snape has to tell Moody to at least remind him for corssing the line. I may be making an erroneous assumption here but could Tonks possibly be a Slytherin, more so a Slytherin from Snape's era of teacher. Just in consideration of the way she spoke about not getting a prefect position and metamorphing her nose into a protrudence that resembles Snape's (which could solely be the influence of attending meetings with the man also), She may choose to dislike him but recognize his usefullness? -SophineClaire From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 17:19:42 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:19:42 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lee" wrote: > But this doesn't include Ginny either, what about her? What if she > becomes a Prefect? I think Molly was just being Zealous about Ron's > badge that day, but still, its almost like Ginny's presence is almost > an after thought. I don't know, that just sort of stood out to me. O.o > > Lee I don't think Ginny is an issue. She's not olde enought to be prefect so she doesn't count in this converation. Fred and George, on the other hand are actually being excluded. I'm sure Molly didn't mena to say they weren't part of the faimly but (as they pointed out) that's what it sounded like. If Ginny makes Prefect I'm sure Molly will gush just like she did for Rom. bibphile From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 17:27:09 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:27:09 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76928 > > acoteucla: > > > I would now like to add my own addition to Dumbledore's > increasing > > > list of heartless but necessary actions: he is responsible for > > James > > > & Lily's death. > > > > > > There has been speculation that Snape is the one who overheard > the > > > prophecy in the Hog's Head, and reported it to LV. All > renditions > > of > > > this theory (that I have heard) involve Snape switching sides > AFTER > > > informing LV of the prophecy. I have a different take on it. > > > > > > Severus Snape, die-hard death-eater, overhears the prophecy IN > ITS > > > ENTIRETY when Trelawney utters it in the Hog's Head. Lily Potter > > > should be pregnant at this point. Snape can figure out quite > > easily > > > that the Potters' child might be born around the end of July. > His > > > life-debt to James comes into play, forcing him to renounce his > > > loyalty to LV and help Dumbledore. Dumbledore recognizes the > life- > > > debt, and thus trusts Snape's conversion. > > > > > *snip* >Lana Lovegood: > Forgive me if I missed something, but why, in your theory, do you > state that Snape owes James a life-debt? > > Lana Lovegood While this is not my theory, the idea of Snape owing the life debt comes from James saving Snape when they were in school. James saved Snape's life when Sirius told Snape how to get into the passage under the Whomping Willow. In PS/SS Dumbledore says that Snape was trying to protect Harry because he felt indebted to James for saving his life (without going into any details about why Snape's life needed saving) and wanted to repay the debt so he could go back to hating James' memory in peace. As it pertains to the theory above, Dumbledore knew of the incident (as he forbids Snape from telling anyone about Lupin) and therefore knows Snape feels indebted to James and knows then that he can trust Snape to have switched sides because of this debt. At least, that's how I read it. KathyK (wondering when Crunchberries started coming in a variety of colors and shapes. mmm...cereal for lunch) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 13 17:38:34 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:38:34 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > CW's horrified thought: > > Perhaps this is the married couple at Hogwarts that has been > anticipated ??? No, I have just come to my senses, she is supposed to > be 70+ and Snape is in his mid-30s. Phew......... Yikes! That is not what I was getting at, at all, at all, at all! I really meant "just friends", based on an earlier statement that even members of the Order didn't like Snape, and only tolerated him because he was useful. I think McGonagall would consider Snape a friend as well as a colleague. I wouldn't have sworn to that in Book 1, when they were caught up in the House Cup and Quidditch competitions, but now I'm pretty sure. No romance, but just appreciation and friendship. She probably worries about him just as Dumbledore does. Wanda From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 17:46:18 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:46:18 -0000 Subject: polite kids (was: Snape's greasy hair) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76930 Don't forget, Buttercup and June, that many of the Hogwarts kids are from all-wizarding families. The wizarding world is in many ways stuck in the middle ages. Language and technology (Hagrid's crossbow) are two examples. Perhaps this includes manners as well? And as for the kids who don't come from the WW, well, they start Hogwarts at a very young age, 11, too soon for the teenage rebellion thing. Then they are at school for ten months of every year with the polite WW kids, soaking up that atmosphere. Also, a lot of the things regular teens have to be angry about simply aren't present at Hogwarts. No parents to be angry at, the teachers don't try to interfere in their private lives, and they actually LIKE going to school and learning magic (who wouldn't!) so not too much complaining that subjects are irrelevant and they're never going to use this stuff in "real life" anyway. What's to be angry about? Erin > Buttercup wrote: > > Mind you, the Hogwarts kids are a model of > > politeness compared the > > real youth of today. June wrote: > Unbelievably polite. Mind you if JKR had wanted to go for gritty > realism, the book would have been so full of **** and $@*#'s! that > it would have been pretty nigh incomprehensible and it certainly > wouldn't be sold to children. > > I don't count that against the books - if I want gritty realism and > lots of profanities I'll go out and read the likes of Irvine Welsh. > I certainly wouldn't want my daughter reading something like that > either. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 17:51:29 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:51:29 -0000 Subject: James' Quidditch position? (was: houses/ snape's worst memory) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Severus here: > > It's mentioned in the book that James was the seeker for his team, > and in the movie the plaque had him listed as house seeker, so why > would JKR say he was a chaser? Do you have a reference for the book? I tried to find one a few weeks ago when this subject came up and couldn't. When Ron took Harry to the trophy room it was to show Tom Riddle's trophy for "Service to the School." McGonagall only told Harry that his father had been a good Quidditch player. Unless there is another scene I dont' remember, I think we have been contaminated by the movie. Ravenclaw Bookworm From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 13 17:53:20 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:53:20 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" > wrote: > > > > CW's horrified thought: > > Perhaps this is the married couple at Hogwarts that has been > anticipated ??? No, I have just come to my senses, she is supposed to > be 70+ and Snape is in his mid-30s. Phew......... Harold and Maude.... June From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 17:57:19 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:57:19 -0000 Subject: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > Darn, you're right. I was confusing being HB with the statement > Molly made when Ron was made prefect "that's everyone in the family!" > (Fred or George then said "What are we, next door neighbors?" ;-) > Being a graduate of US public school system, I fear, has permanently > hindered my abilty to keep that rather important distinction straight. > > ~Margaret As much as I like Molly, I was surprised by the way she discounted Fred and George by this statement. The only thing I can think of is that the twins had emphatically stated (in book 1, I think) that being Prefect would take the fun out of things, so they were never really contenders. If you were a teacher, would you put either of these two in charge of rule enforcement? Especially if it meant setting one twin against the other? Ravenclaw Bookworm From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 18:00:21 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:00:21 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > In the Potterverse are vampires considered to be human? > It makes a difference to the theory of Snape being one. According to > MBAWTFT, only humans are allowed wands. > > Suppositions based on accepted lore are not particularly helpful, JKR > tends to put her own twist on folk legends. > > Can anybody find a canon reference? "K": Perhaps this is what you are looking for: GoF/Ch 9 No non-human creature is permitted to carry or use a wand.~~~~ That doesn't mean that a non-human 'will not' carry a wand. It just means they are not suppose to do so. This could be one of the many reasons Snape does not go around stating what he is. Plus it doesn't appear that the wizarding world is that crazy over vampires. For instance: In GoF/Ch 10 Percy, "Last week she (Rita) was saying we're wasting our time quibbling about cauldron thickness, when we should be stamping out vampires! As if it wasn't specifically stated in paragraph twelve of the Guidelines for the Treatment of Non-Wizard Part-Human --- GoF/125-126 Young wizards are trying to impress veelas by saying, "but I'm a vampire hunter. I've killed about nine so far____'. OoP/302 (Scholastic version)Umbridge hates part-humans including werewolves and merpeople. Sirius, "Apparently she loathes part- humans. "So what are Umbridge's lessons like? Sirius interrupted. "Is she training you all to kill half-breeds? Further defintion of how a vampire is classified: FB/x-xiii There are beasts and there are beings. Problems arose as to who would be classified as beings and who would be beasts. A 'being' is a creature worthy of legal rights and would have a voice in the governance of the magical world. Finally the magical community found an acceptable definition. 'Beings' are any creature that has sufficient intelligence to understand the laws of the magical community and to bear part of the responsibility in shaping those laws (FB xii). However, the centaurs have refused 'being' status and requested to remain 'beasts'. The centaurs objected to some of the creatures with whom they were asked to share 'being' status, such as hags and 'vampires' (FB footnote xiii). So vampires are classified as 'beings'. "severusbook4" Message 76909 So far JKR's touch on vampires has been very light and unsupportive of Snape being one or even half one (visions of Blade dance in my mind). "K": Oh I disagree . There are plenty of references to vampires in all the books. There are references to vampires and Snape in the books. Sure, JKR hasn't put a big "V" on his forehead but I wouldn't expect her to do so. I keep hearing how all the vampire references are a red herring. Why would JKR bother to do that? Is it her intent to just turn around and laugh at the end of book seven if we find out Snape isn't a vampire? Why even bother to tease? Unless Snape is something other than a vampire/dhampire and she is drawing our attention away from what that is. However, it is always vampires that we hear about. severusbook4: Since JKR seems to do her homework when dealing with mythical creatures and beasts, we can only hope that she will stay semi true to vampires. And if she does then Snape is not a vampire in any stretch af the term. "K": How is Snape not a vampire? What if he is hiding what he is? That's not totally out of the question. severusbook4: Snape prefers the dark clothing and the dark arts (can anyone say image conscious?), and IMHO I believe he is Gothic in nature, the brooding, depressed, unhappy person he is portraid to be in the books. "K" Now I can go along with the idea that JKR just loves that Gothic look. I have no problem with that but I might also ask why Snape loves dark clothing and is so interested in the dark arts. Could his interest in the dark arts not be because he is a dark creature? One can make a vampire whatever they so desire. JKR does not have to follow Anne Rice or any other author. Sure, she should probably stay true to what we know about vampires. But there's a problem in that line of thinking also. One could spend all day reseaching vampire folklore and come up with many different types of vampires. For instance, some of the folklore says vampires have always been able to walk in the sunlight and it hasn't been till more recent times that others have decided they could not withstand sunlight. I can find gaunt or plump vampires, those with fangs and those without, those who eat and those who don't, those who can have children and those who can't, those who have long fingernails and those who don't, those who sleep in coffins and those who don't. If JKR doesn't want Snape to have fangs or nails and gives Snape the ability to wander in sunlight why can't she do that? She would be staying true to some versions of vampire folklore. At the same time I would not be surprised to see Snape one day showing off his beautiful set of fangs. What will be interesting to see is if Umbridge and the Ministry does go ahead and checks the background of Snape as Umbridge stated they would be doing. Until we hear from JKR that Snape isn't a vampire, I'll stick with that theory! "K" v-v (best I could do for fangs) From jendiangelo at cox.net Wed Aug 13 18:14:09 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:14:09 -0000 Subject: Stubby Boardman is Regulus Black In-Reply-To: <001d01c3611e$70d75820$8ef3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76935 Finchen: > This also could enlight some new aspects on the task he had to do as a DE > and refused to do... AccioSirius Jen: Was this mentioned? If so, I apologize. Could he be the DE that Voldemort says will be killed? It would make sense that he's in hiding... I never thought of the possibility that Regulus could be Stubby... very interesting theory! AccioSirius Jen From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 18:15:06 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:15:06 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Mandy >Why Malfoy got one I will never understand. Does Lucius influence reach into Hogwarts too? To Snape possibly but doesn't Dumbledore choose the Prefects? Just think of the other Slytherin possibilities: Goyle (ugh), Crabbe (double ugh), Nott or Zabini (neither of whom we know much about). Malfoy was probably the least offensive choice. Ravenclaw Bookworm From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 12 18:07:04 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 19:07:04 +0100 Subject: Atom Bomb Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76937 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com , "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com , "arrowsmithbt" > < arrowsmithbt at b... > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com , Emily Rose < jedillore at r... > > wrote: > > > on 8/9/03 1:05 AM, HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com at > > > HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com wrote: > > > > > >> > > > My theory is that in the magical world, the laws of physics > > > don't necessarily apply. > > > I agree with the above statement, but that is only when Physics' > laws need to be broken or bent to provide the result the woutch or > wizard is after. > > > A bomb for many reasons would work, but only if the laws of physics > were left to their own ends. But if the bomb was to be dropped over > the stadium, the laws of physics no longer apply, since physics > rules that you cannot fly on a broom, bludgers would not be self > propelled or semi intelligent, the bomb could fall without the big > bang created by the rules of physics, or it could dissappartate to a > safe location, or not even fall at all. ...edited... > > Severus "visual mathmatician" Snape Yes, I agree that in the Potterverse muggle physical theories have been superceded by an alternative science. However, even if us muggles are living in a state of sublime ignorance, 'real effects' remain. For example, even though the medieval theory of Phlogiston has been overtaken, it doesn't mean that wood doesn't burn and granite does. In the WW, for their 'science' to have effect, defined objects or persons are deliberately targeted to achieve the desired result. If not so targeted, the object remains subject to muggle scientific theory. So the broom flies, but anything it carries, ie, person, trunk, cannot do so independently without further intervention. A hedgehog is transfigured, but not the surface it rests on. So, unless a bomb is specifically targeted by suitable spells, its muggle properties remain. Muggle repelling spells are different, I think. They work on the mind, not on a tangible object; also they don't seem to have a great range, just enough to discourage passers-by from intruding. Now, back to the bang. If a plane is at 30,000 ft, impact would occur 43seconds after bomb release. If the jet is traveling at 600 mph, the point of release would be about 7.5 miles away, probably well outside the spell effect area. Finding the Stadium might be a problem; have to think about that one. Hogwarts is easy. Observe the railway line until it vanishes. Lovely puzzles! Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From siskiou at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 18:40:58 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:40:58 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <81431189693.20030813114058@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 76938 Hi, Wednesday, August 13, 2003, 5:17:43 AM, feetmadeofclay wrote: > And he even think she's pretty... Isn't that sweet???!!!! As an > R/Her you have reason to worry. Well, he thinks she's *not ugly*. I don't exactly equate that with him thinking she's stunningly pretty. There is lots in between, and Harry never seems to think of Hermione in romantic ways. Meaning, commenting on her hair, eyes, or general appearance in a loving way. Of course, it could hit him out of the blue that she's the perfect girl for him, but I'm hoping this is not the case. They just don't seem to have much to talk about besides Harry's problems and how to solve them, and I'm not sure how good a foundation this would make in the case Harry survives and doesn't have new problems for Hermione to solve every week. And Harry doesn't seem interested in Hermione's pursuits much at all. He just avoids being drawn into talking about them... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 13 18:41:56 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:41:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Sherlock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > I'm a big Sherlock Homes fan, and it occurred to me the other day > that if JKR decides to bring Sirius back somehow, she will have some > pretty solid literary precedent. After all, Conan Doyle thought he'd > killed off Sherlock pretty definitively but it turned out he was > wrong. No body, you see. Of course, there are differences-JKR has > the whole HP plotline thought out whereas ACD deliberately wrote the > Holmes stories and novels to stand independently. Still...hope > springs eternal. In my heart, I think Sirius is really gone but with > JKR, anything is possible. > > Laura (still in mourning for her beloved Sirius even though her > teenage daughter thinks she should get over it already) The great Sherlock would be anathema on this site. Don't forget his dictum "It is a capital mistake to theorise before you have the facts." Definitely not the motto of HPfGU. Kneasy From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 18:41:54 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:41:54 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76940 I was skimming SS last night and noticed in the first chapter that Dumbledore tells McGonagall that he has been trying for years to get people to call LV by his "proper name: Voldemort." Contrast that with the battle in OoP when Dumbledore keeps calling him "Tom." Is that because it would be confusing to introduce too many facts at the beginning of the first book? Or is there a more subtle reason for Dumbledore's (and JKR's) wording? Ravenclaw Bookworm From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 18:43:07 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:43:07 -0000 Subject: Atom Bomb In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > > > Yes, I agree that in the Potterverse muggle physical theories have > been superceded by an alternative science. > However, even if us muggles are living in a state of sublime ignorance, > 'real effects' remain. For example, even though the medieval theory of > Phlogiston has been overtaken, it doesn't mean that wood doesn't burn > and granite does. > > In the WW, for their 'science' to have effect, defined objects or > persons are deliberately targeted to achieve the desired result. If > not so targeted, the object remains subject to muggle scientific > theory. So the broom flies, but anything it carries, ie, person, trunk, > cannot do so independently without further intervention. A hedgehog is > transfigured, but not the surface it rests on. So, unless a bomb is > specifically targeted by suitable spells, its muggle properties remain. > > Muggle repelling spells are different, I think. They work on the mind, > not on a tangible object; also they don't seem to have a great range, > just enough to discourage passers-by from intruding. > > Now, back to the bang. > If a plane is at 30,000 ft, impact would occur 43seconds after bomb > release. If the jet is traveling at 600 mph, the point of release would > be about 7.5 miles away, probably well outside the spell effect area. > > Finding the Stadium might be a problem; have to think about that one. > Hogwarts is easy. Observe the railway line until it vanishes. > > Lovely puzzles! > > Kneasy > Kneasy, I don't recall exactly if the stadium was 3-d on the exterior? What I am saying is like the tents most of the wizarding families used, and like the trunk of Moody's. Did they just walk through some sort of gate and find them selves in a stadium that you could not see from the outside? Spacial displacement again, I know but it is used through out the last couple of books. First the Ford of Arthur's, then the neccessary room, and finally Moody's trunk. If the stadium was created in this state, would the resulting blast from a bomb breach the barrier? Don't know, and I think I am spending way too much on this subject. Severus "my head hurts now" Snape > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed From acoteucla at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 18:44:52 2003 From: acoteucla at hotmail.com (acoteucla) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:44:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76942 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > I guess what I'm really getting at is, why did Dumbledore choose > Harry over Neville in this scenario? Well... I don't think any part of my theory requires it to be Harry, rather than Neville that Voldemort chooses. In fact, the part of the prophecy that says "the dark lord will mark him as his equal" sort of implies that LV made the choice as to who he feared most. So, I suppose that Dumbledore was ready to sacrifice EITHER the Potters OR the Longbottoms for his plan. LV got to choose which one to go after. The only problem this creates is that it makes Snape's life-debt to James more complex. Maybe, when Snape related the prophecy to LV, he urged him to go after the Longbottoms, since they were the purebloods and thus more of a danger. Seems kind of a weak response for a life-debt, though. From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 18:58:33 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:58:33 -0000 Subject: Occlumency/Was Snape's Worst Mem: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ceefax2002" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nick M." wrote: > > Sue wrote: > > > My own question is - if this guy, Snape is so > > > crash hot in Occlumency, why does he need the Pensieve at all to > > > hide his thoughts from a mere student? I can't find the original post from Sue so I'll just comment on the above. Instead of looking at Snape as not being too hot in Occlumency, why not look at Harry as having superb talent in this area that he has yet to figure out? Also, Harry is not just a mere student. Don't forget that Voldemort transferred some of his powers over to Harry. This could be one of them. Snape is just playing it safe. I'm sure there are many things Snape would rather Harry not see. "K" From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 13 19:07:29 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:07:29 -0000 Subject: The magic power of love. Was: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" > > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > ] Mental liberation requires discipline. That Harry does not > have, > > > > yet. Will he ever? Anybody's guess. And I'll bet my second > best > > > > cauldron against a chocolate frog that V. enters Harrys' mind > > > > again in the next book. > > > > Kneasy > > > > Severus Here: > > I'll take that bet. Harry has been stumbling around in a fog of > self relization for the first five books. Wouldn't you have been a > little more that curious as for as why LV would not leave you alone? > And kept trying to kill you? I think Harry was in a state of self > denial, trying to forget about it and make it will go away. Now > that he has been named by the prophecy and heard the prophecy > himself, his self discipline is going to soar. He has a cause now, > he is the chosen one to save all wizard kind. When it came to the > tri-wizard competition, Harry busted his hump learning new spells to > help him out and he succeeded in his quest and yes he was helped out > by his friends also. I will agree occulemencie (sp?) was not his > strong side but as it was said I think LV will not want to go there > anymore, LV will find it painful. Remeber Harry is quite powerful in > his magical ability, his patronus is superior to many other full > grown wizards, and he did force LV's AK beam back into LV's wand, it > was his power behind his wand that enabled him to do that. I think > we will see a much older Harry after the summer is done. What he's been through would turn anyone old and grey. But I think that you're overestimating Harry. He's not a skillful wizard, he stumbles from one crisis to another, coming through by sheer luck or outside influence (such as co-incidental wand conflict). What he is though, is lucky. He can learn a new spell when needed, but a whole new state of mind, plus a new mental discipline, plus a new magical subject? Don't think so. He could probably manage to stay ahead of most of the students, but Voldemort? Arch-fiend and super-mentat? I'd better start dieting now, I'm going to have a lot of choccie frogs. Kneasy From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 19:14:28 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:14:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > I guess what I'm really getting at is, why did Dumbledore choose > > Harry over Neville in this scenario? > > I don't think DD chose, I think LV chose who he feared most and also who fit the prophecy the best. Also we don't know that if LV had chosen Neville and attacked him, if Neville would have survived. What I am saying is that LV knew something that we don't know yet, a piece of infomation crucial to his picking the Potters over the Longbottoms. If LV had killed Neville, would he have then seeked out Harry? And if Harry had not been attacked, would he still be as strong and gifted as he is today? DD did say that something happened that night and some of LV's powers and traits were passed to Harry. In LV's attack on the Potters, LV inadvertantly created the only weapon that could be used to destoy him? I am still not sure if this would hold true if he attacked Neville in the same manner, since Neville even says he is almost a squib. Forgot where I was going with this. Oh, yea. Did Snape have something to do with LV's choice? I don't think so, if Snape was the one to deliver the bits of the prophecy LV heard then I think that is as far as Snapes influence on the choice goes. Now upon hearing LV pick the Potters, Snape may have had a change of heart since he does owe James a life debt. This may have been when Snape changed sides and warned the Potters and DD about LV's plans. Once again merely speculation but it does fit well with DD trusting Snape so much, because Snape chose to come to the good side. Severus Snape From jendiangelo at cox.net Wed Aug 13 19:19:35 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:19:35 -0000 Subject: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76946 Angelberri56 wrote: > So everytime I read the part where Harry leaves out the dream in > the letter, I think, "Oooh, if he had JUST put that in..." Of course, I > know that it was essential to the plot that Voldemort rose again, > just so Harry can defeat him once and for all in the end (which I > think will happen.) AccioSirius Jen: In the U.S. version, Chapter 2, page 17 - "Harry put his face into his hands, blocking out his bedroom, trying to hold on to the picture of that dimly lit room, but it was like trying to keep water in his cupped hands; the details were now trickling away as fast as he tried to hold on to them..." The only part he could remember was that Voldemort and Wormtail were plotting to kill him and that they had killed someone else. In hindsight, I don't think it would've mattered if he had included his dream in the letter since Dumbledore already knew about the prophecy and knew that Lord Thingy was trying to find a way to kill Harry. The rest of the vision is what would've mattered, IMO. When I had first read about Harry not including it, I thought the same thing that you did, but then I thought of him not being able to remember the dream. I hope this makes some sense... because I'm starting to confuse myself! AccioSirius Jen (who thinks she might take a nap...) From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 19:24:02 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:24:02 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76947 >Greetings! I'm coming out of lurk mode to make just one little >contribution to this conversation. > >Wiley said: >"I have to side with the people who feel criticizing the series is a >bit pretentious. For cripe's sake, people...this is young adult >literature, not Joyce or Tolkein or Hemmingway. I don't ever expect >Rowling to be brought up in a university literature course." > >My reply: >Actually, I know of at least one university English course already >that >is specifically devoted to Harry Potter. Dr. Philip Nel, author of >"J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter Novels: A Reader's Guide," teaches a >course called "Harry Potter's Library" at Kansas State University. >In >addition to all the Harry texts, they also read works by Philip >Pullman, E. Nesbit, Roald Dahl, and C.S. Lewis, among others. > >Oh, how I would love to take that course! :) > >--Anne > It's likely to, going forward, if for no other reason than it is truly an amazing *literacy* (note slightly different word choice than *literary*) phenomenon and has many people, especially young people, reading. I have found that people strike up conversations with me on public transit - people of all ages and races - if they see me reading an HP book. And I'd like to make a recommendation that people bag the word 'pretentious' from their vocabulary - it's simply a bit much to make assumptions about other people's motives in that way. In the particular case of HP (but for almost anything, really) the series and some of the themes and memes in it strike powerful resonating chords in some of the readers; using your mind to actually pursue, develop, talk about and write about these themes is quite *healthy* in a literal sense. I won't stray so far off topic as to list any of the numerous URLs showing quite definitive research linking active mental pursuits - reading, composing written material, even crossword puzzles - as more mentally stimulating long term than passive entertainments like watching TV or video games, but I suspect most of you know they are out there. I'd also like to recommend that one not be so quick to urge passive and non-interactive absorption of *anything* - for the same reasons. You might say it's sort of a faddish American "anti-pretension" to not use your mind to critique anything...but I don't buy it for personal and for health-related reasons, and for the latter at least, there's ample data to support my position. It's wonderful that HP has people reading, writing fanfics and songs, examining why something they read makes them feel a certain way, and *thinking*. A mind is a terrible thing to waste. :-) Jesta Hijinx _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From mbush at lainc.com Wed Aug 13 19:25:22 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:25:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's powers (was: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76948 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: if Harry had not been attacked, would he > still be as strong and gifted as he is today? DD did say that > something happened that night and some of LV's powers and traits > were passed to Harry. I've wondered about this myself. From all accounts, Lily and James were good strong wizards, so presumably Harry got some of their talent. It is easy for everyone to say, "that trait is one Voldermort passed on to Harry when he attacked him" but we don't really know do we? Might any of them come from his parents? and what skills might he not have discovered yet? Anyone care to flush out a list? Mtwelovett From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 13 19:28:47 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:28:47 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore responsible for Lily & James' death? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" > wrote: > > > I guess what I'm really getting at is, why did Dumbledore choose > > > Harry over Neville in this scenario? > > > > I don't think DD chose, I think LV chose who he feared most and > also who fit the prophecy the best. Also we don't know that if LV > had chosen Neville and attacked him, if Neville would have > survived. What I am saying is that LV knew something that we don't > know yet, a piece of infomation crucial to his picking the Potters > over the Longbottoms. If LV had killed Neville, would he have then > seeked out Harry? And if Harry had not been attacked, would he > still be as strong and gifted as he is today? DD did say that > something happened that night and some of LV's powers and traits > were passed to Harry. In LV's attack on the Potters, LV > inadvertantly created the only weapon that could be used to destoy > him? I am still not sure if this would hold true if he attacked > Neville in the same manner, since Neville even says he is almost a > squib. Forgot where I was going with this. Oh, yea. Did Snape have > something to do with LV's choice? I don't think so, if Snape was > the one to deliver the bits of the prophecy LV heard then I think > that is as far as Snapes influence on the choice goes. Now upon > hearing LV pick the Potters, Snape may have had a change of heart > since he does owe James a life debt. This may have been when Snape > changed sides and warned the Potters and DD about LV's plans. Once > again merely speculation but it does fit well with DD trusting Snape > so much, because Snape chose to come to the good side. > > Severus Snape I've pondered (and posted) on DDs actions with James and Lily before. I think Snape is an irrelevence in this scenario; what matters is DD and what he knew. He knew the prophecy. One possible interpretation of the prophecy *could* (not definite) foretell the deaths of the parents of the chosen one. If this is so, then the deaths have to happen to provide Voldemorts Bane. If true, DD had no alternative but to be prepared to sacrifice the parents of the child Voldy picked. And he's cold-blooded enough to do it. Kneasy From jendiangelo at cox.net Wed Aug 13 19:44:36 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:44:36 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76950 Ravenclaw Bookworm: > I was skimming SS last night and noticed in the first chapter that > Dumbledore tells McGonagall that he has been trying for years to get > people to call LV by his "proper name: Voldemort." Contrast that > with the battle in OoP when Dumbledore keeps calling him "Tom." > > Is that because it would be confusing to introduce too many facts at > the beginning of the first book? Or is there a more subtle reason > for Dumbledore's (and JKR's) wording? Me (AccioSirius Jen): My guess is that Dumbledore knew Lord Thingy personally as "Tom Riddle", so that's what he calls him when they meet in the MoM. But Dumbledore also realizes that no one else in the WW recognizes Lord Voldemort as Tom Riddle, so he refers to him as Lord Voldemort when around other wizards (they would think that was his "proper" name). (Boy, I really need a nap, because I'm confusing myself again!) Just my babbling thoughts... AccioSirius Jen From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 19:45:35 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:45:35 +0000 Subject: Other Children's Lit (Re: [HPforGrownups] Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76951 > >At 05:16 PM 8/9/2003 +0000, feetmadeofclay wrote: > >And I would like to know if Potter is the only children's lit you >are >reading. Or what books you loved as kids. And of course why... > >Admittedly I am a 3rd grade teacher so reading children's lit is my job, >but I just re-read James and the Giant Peach, which I had not read in >years, and loved it. It, as many have pointed out, has huge similarities >to HP including the main character's name James Henry Trotter. If it were >to have just been released (instead of on 1961) I would bet JK's crack >legal team would be trying to sue Mr. Dahl. > >Of course it does not have nearly the epic flavor of HP but if you are >looking for a quick read I am sure you would love it. > >Heather Maffioli >(Hi I'm new!) > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > I read lots of juvenile literature - to me it's much more interesting than a lot of "adult" stuff that tries too hard to be "gritty" and winds up being gross. Young adult literature, mind. I tend to like things with historical themes and some with slightly fantastical but not too way-out themes. Let me recommend to the group Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain" and Susan Cooper's "The Dark Is Rising" series for starters. JH _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Wed Aug 13 19:45:58 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:45:58 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76952 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "flying_meese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" > wrote: > > While thinking about the "flower" names of female characters, it > > occurred to me that the names of the Weasley children seem to be > > resolutely commonplace. Other pure-blood families seem to give > their > > children names like Sirius or Draco. The Weasleys have names like > > Ron, Percy, Fred and George. Does this reflect Mr. Weasley's > > fasination with all things Muggle > > You may have something there but I remember from Harry's trial in > OoP, Percy's name was given as Percy Ignatius Weasley and even DD > had a common name, Albus Percival Wulfric Brian Dumbledore. (I don't > have access to my book so spelling or order may be incorrect.) > > FM I think that Percy can be a nickname for Perseus or Percival. Some children are given family names that have been handed down through decades (maybe even centuries in the Wizarding World?). With one of Dumbledore's middle names being Percival, it makes me wonder if the Weasleys might somehow be descended from Dumbledore's line (although Arthur & Molly may have named Percy aware of it being an old family name, but unaware of the connection to Dumbledore). So far there is no evidence to suggest Dumbledore ever produced any offspring, or that he had any other siblings other than Aberforth (but Aberforth may have have children). JKR has disclosed little information about Dumbledore's past & relations, which makes me suspicious that she his hiding a big old family tree clue. Plus, she has made references to the red hair thing more than once with Dumbledore, Weasleys & Lily - although hair color is not a strong enough clue. Could Harry, Ron & Ginny be descendents of one of Dumbledore's relatives? A shot in the dark - but stranger things have happened! Brookeshanks From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 19:48:07 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:48:07 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76953 --- > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: Laura: I don't agree that most of the people in the Order don't like Snape- > I > > don't see any evidence of this in the text. In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophineclaire" wrote: > When Harry firsts arrives at HQ, Ginny says that Bill doesn't like > him {Snape} or Bill doesn't even like Snape, I know those sentences > have very different connotations so could someone please specify the > correct one? > I don't know if his opinion changed but if the Penseive scene in > GOF means anything, Moody doesn't trust Snape. > > I may be making an erroneous assumption here but could Tonks > possibly be a Slytherin, more so a Slytherin from Snape's era of > teacher. > -SophineClaire Laura again: Several generations are involved in the Order. Those who may have had Snape as a teacher (Bill, Tonks) may not harbor particularly warm feelings toward him. Can you imagine Tonks in Potions class? She'd be Neville with an attitude-Snape would have detested her. Then there are those who are his contemporaries, who in OoP would be Sirius and Remus. Remus, sweetie that he is, would just as soon let bygones be bygones. Then there are those who are older than SS, which would include Molly and Arthur, McGonagall and DD. My impression is that the people who were in the advance guard were mostly Molly and ARthur's ages or thereabouts. Shackelbolt (sp? don't have my book with me) seems to be a career MoM type. I don't have text to support this, though. Mad-Eye, of course, isn't the forgiving type, so we know where he stands. But I don't see evidence of hostility from anyone else in this group. I agree that McGonagall and SS have a cordial relationship. So I think that the brevity of Snape's visits to Grimmauld Place has to do with Snape rather than the Order. He's not exactly the social butterfly of the WW at the best of times, and he probably figures that the less time he spends at HQ the safer he is. Besides, this *is* Sirius's house, and Snape has to be extremely uncomfortable there. Still, if he decided to hang out, debrief and have a glass of wine with the crew, I don't see that anyone (except Sirius) would have discouraged him. They all know what a dangerous position SS has placed himself in and they have to respect him for that. From coonkell at msu.edu Wed Aug 13 15:29:21 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly M.) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:29:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76954 wrote: > I think Harry is going to pull away from the trio so as to protect > them, that doesn't mean his friends will allow this. This will put > a strain on the feelings Hermione has for Harry and may push her > towards Ron (a shoulder to cry on). Ginny will be the one to pull > Harry's head out and point it out to him that they will be forever > in danger and no matter his feelings for any one girl in > particular. That is when Harry will notice Ginny in a different > light (red hair and green eyes like his mom? good with charms like > his mom? pretty good as a seeker like him? etc.). Me: Is there a theory out there that says that the trio will just remain friends? That none of them will "get together"? Just curious. It will be interesting to see Harry's character develop in the next few books and how he relates to his friends. Obviously people he cares for are in danger, so will he pull away from them completely? I think he'll want to seclude himself more, but it's obvious that he is better off with them than without them. I really liked your theory though, about Harry and Ginny. It's interesting the similarities you pointed out between Ginny and Harry's mother - I had not noticed that before. But that's why I read these boards - to learn from everyone else. :-) -Kelly From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 19:52:45 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:52:45 -0000 Subject: Sirius and Sherlock In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76955 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > I'm a big Sherlock Homes fan, and it occurred to me the other day > > that if JKR decides to bring Sirius back somehow, she will have some > > pretty solid literary precedent. > > > > "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > The great Sherlock would be anathema on this site. Don't forget his > dictum "It is a capital mistake to theorise before you have the facts." > Definitely not the motto of HPfGU. > > Kneasy Laura: On the other hand, neither Holmes nor JKR is reluctant to engage in a bit of misdirection when it suits their purposes. :-) From marika_thestral at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 15:30:07 2003 From: marika_thestral at hotmail.com (stuffandstuffandstuffus) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:30:07 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76956 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura: > > I don't agree that most of the people in the Order don't like Snape- I > don't see any evidence of this in the text. The only person who > really hated Snape is (apparently) gone. No one else fights with > him. Even Remus is trying to get along with him. Me: We do see examples that Snape is not liked. Yes, Lupin is trying to get along with him, something that makes me like and respect him a lot, but he might still dislike him, even if I hope that's not the case. But we do know that Moody "was wearing a look of deep scepticism behind Dumbledore's back" when Dumbledore defended Snape in the pensieve. p 513 GoF "Bill doesn't like him either, said Ginny" p 67 OotP Tonks makes fun of Snape's nose by immitating it p 81 OotP. Not the nices thing to do towards a person who obviously hates being made fun of, specially not behind his back. Isn't it also likely that Snape can sence peoples dislike, without them having to show it, by using Legilimency? Marika From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 19:54:28 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:54:28 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76957 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > For all you H/H shippers out there, I don't think it will happen, at > least not until LV is out of the way. I believe that is exactly one of the main arguments of the many H/HR shippers which is that we'll see the beginning and end of the R/HR ship in books vi-vii, but that the only thing we'll see of the H/HR ship is perhaps an acknowledgement of their feelings at the very end of vii. > I think Harry is going to pull away from the trio so as to protect > them, that doesn't mean his friends will allow this. This will put > a strain on the feelings Hermione has for Harry and may push her > towards Ron (a shoulder to cry on). Ginny will be the one to pull > Harry's head out and point it out to him that they will be forever > in danger and no matter his feelings for any one girl in > particular. This situation you described is exactly what happened during the christmas chapters where Harry isolated himself from the others in Buckbeak's room and guess what it wasn't Ginny who got him out of the room, but Hermione. > Who knows? > Harry's girl may not have been even mentioned in the books yet. We > can only speculate. That is why this is so much fun. I believe Rowling has said that the girl that Harry will end up with was in the first book. However I'd take anything she is saying with a large grain of salt. From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 17:50:17 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 10:50:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore mystery -- please explain In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813175017.79601.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76958 kneazelkid wrote: OK I have obviously missed something. I understand that DD would avoid Harry after the whole Arthur-Weasley-snake-incident-combined-with- possible-V-possession. But why was he avoiding Harry in the first half of the book? I know this is probably simple and I just missed it but I'm a little confused and figured yall could clear me up quickly. Thanks, kneazelkid -- who is usually pretty good about these things IMO-- I believe that DD knew of the connection between Harry and Voldy, via the scar, for a long time. However, Voldy was not back to his full strength yet and he did not worry about Voldy realizing the connection or the power that was at his fingers. When Voldy came back in GoF, DD worst fears would be possible, DD knew of the dangerous connection long before Voldy and harry would realize it. That is why he avoided Harry in the beginning of the book. Eowynn From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 13 20:02:29 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:02:29 -0000 Subject: polite kids (was: Snape's greasy hair) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > Erin: > Don't forget, Buttercup and June, that many of the Hogwarts kids are > from all-wizarding families. The wizarding world is in many ways > stuck in the middle ages. Language and technology (Hagrid's crossbow) > are two examples. Perhaps this includes manners as well? > And as for the kids who don't come from the WW, well, they start > Hogwarts at a very young age, 11, too soon for the teenage rebellion > thing. Then they are at school for ten months of every year with the > polite WW kids, soaking up that atmosphere. Also, a lot of the > things regular teens have to be angry about simply aren't present at > Hogwarts. No parents to be angry at, the teachers don't try to > interfere in their private lives, and they actually LIKE going to > school and learning magic (who wouldn't!) so not too much > complaining that subjects are irrelevant and they're never going to > use this stuff in "real life" anyway. What's to be angry about? > > Erin > > > > Buttercup wrote: > > > > Mind you, the Hogwarts kids are a model of > > > politeness compared the > > > real youth of today. > > June wrote: > > > Unbelievably polite. Mind you if JKR had wanted to go for gritty > > realism, the book would have been so full of **** and $@*#'s! that > > it would have been pretty nigh incomprehensible and it certainly > > wouldn't be sold to children. > > > > I don't count that against the books - if I want gritty realism and > > lots of profanities I'll go out and read the likes of Irvine Welsh. > > I certainly wouldn't want my daughter reading something like that > > either. Geoff: Follow up to that - what has surprised me about the films is that some of the characters (Ron in particular) have been allowed to indulge in (mildish) swearing which is not in the book. As someone who was brought up in the dim and distant past not to swear, it rather grates with me on occasions. From coonkell at msu.edu Wed Aug 13 19:02:09 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly M.) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:02:09 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > I was skimming SS last night and noticed in the first chapter that Dumbledore tells McGonagall that he has been trying for years to get > people to call LV by his "proper name: Voldemort." Contrast that with the battle in OoP when Dumbledore keeps calling him "Tom." > Ravenclaw Bookworm My 2 cents: Maybe Dumbledore was trying to get into LV's "emotional" side - or appeal to the deeper person instead of the monster that he has become. Another possibility- calling him Tom could be considered an insult? Instead of calling him Voldemort like I'm sure he'd like to be called, Dumbledore is then talking down to him? Just a thought... -Kelly From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 20:09:14 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:09:14 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > In the Potterverse are vampires considered to be human? > > Yes, in mythology they are classed as derived from humans, but does > this apply in the WW? > I've searched the likely sites seeking clarification but can't find any > canon or near canon references. They are most likely classfied under half-humans like Lupin, Hagrid, Firenze and the Mermen under the lake in that they possesse human characteristics, but are not fully human and possesse characteristics of other creatures magical or otherwise. > It makes a difference to the theory of Snape being one. According to > MBAWTFT, only humans are allowed wands. But Half-humans are allowed wands since we see Lupin carrying one and Hagrid has or had one. From lmbolland at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 20:10:21 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (eric_and_lauri) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:10:21 -0000 Subject: Lily and Alice Longbottom Was: Who were Lily's Hogwarts friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76962 > Then RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > > > Well, my vote for a best friend would be Alice Longbottom. > > > > It would definitely explain why Harry has never heard from > > Lily's best friend. Just my guess though :) > > I think you're on to something there. There's also the possibility of Dorcas Meadows. She was killed BY Voldemort himself, tho we don't yet know *when* she was killed. Perhaps V. suspected her (as Lily's best friend and/or Harry's Godmother, if she might have been) of being secret keeper. Just a theory. Lily's friends could also could be Hestia Jones (the pink cheeked witch) and/or Marlene McKinnon. Lauri From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 13 20:23:27 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:23:27 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76963 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "stuffandstuffandstuffus" wrote: >> > We do see examples that Snape is not liked. > > Yes, Lupin is trying to get along with him, something that makes me > like and respect him a lot, but he might still dislike him, even if I > hope that's not the case. > > But we do know that Moody "was wearing a look of deep scepticism > behind Dumbledore's back" when Dumbledore defended Snape in the > pensieve. p 513 GoF > > "Bill doesn't like him either, said Ginny" p 67 OotP > > Tonks makes fun of Snape's nose by immitating it p 81 OotP. Not the > nices thing to do towards a person who obviously hates being made fun > of, specially not behind his back. > > Isn't it also likely that Snape can sence peoples dislike, without > them having to show it, by using Legilimency? > > Marika If he's being a double agent, being an tragic anti-hero too, AND being able to read that no one likes him as well, no wonder he's a miserable bugger. I wouldn't want to hang with the crowd and do cocktails either. June From Elvishooked at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 20:25:10 2003 From: Elvishooked at hotmail.com (Inge) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:25:10 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76964 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: In the Potterverse are vampires considered to be human? Yes, in mythology they are classed as derived from humans, but does this apply in the WW? I've searched the likely sites seeking clarification but can't find any canon or near canon references. It makes a difference to the theory of Snape being one. According to MBAWTFT, only humans are allowed wands. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" greatelderone at y...> wrote: But Half-humans are allowed wands since we see Lupin carrying one and Hagrid has or had one. Me (Inge): Just a quick-question. Has Snape ever been shown or told about to have a wand? From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 20:27:49 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:27:49 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76965 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > Me (Inge): > Just a quick-question. Has Snape ever been shown or told about to > have a wand? Didn't he have a wand in COS when he and Lockheart did the dueling club? bibphile From yellows at aol.com Wed Aug 13 20:28:24 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:28:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Secret Agent Snape Message-ID: <73645912.701F8294.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76966 In a message dated 8/13/2003 9:54:52 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Severus writes: > At first Severus may have been harsh and condescending towards Harry in order to goade him into pushing harder at his studies, and thus becoming a better weapon. Snape may be being petty and nasty to keep up his image as a evil person as not to compromise his standing with the death eaters. Absolutely. This is what I've been saying all along. Snape hated James Potter, and perhaps the child in him still does, but James is dead. James also saved Snape. Snape also, for whatever reason, changed sides (or appeared to). This leaves me to believe: 1. SS has likely moved on and made peace with his hatred for JP. Why hold a grudge with a dead person? I think SS is smarter than that. 2. SS is working as a double, double, double, double, whatever agent. :) He's ultimately on the side of the Order, but is obviously not telling LV that. 3. LV and the DEs think SS is still one of them, spying on the Order. 4. SS MUST treat Harry badly for two reasons -- a. to push Harry to work harder b. to convince the DE children that he does, in fact, hate Harry Potter. Brief Chronicles From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 20:31:09 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:31:09 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > > wrote: > In the Potterverse are vampires considered to be human? > > Yes, in mythology they are classed as derived from humans, but > does this apply in the WW? > I've searched the likely sites seeking clarification but can't find > any canon or near canon references. > > It makes a difference to the theory of Snape being one. According > to MBAWTFT, only humans are allowed wands. > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" > greatelderone at y...> wrote: > But Half-humans are allowed wands since we see Lupin carrying one and > Hagrid has or had one. > > Me (Inge): > Just a quick-question. Has Snape ever been shown or told about to > have a wand? He makes harry's potions disapear with the same spell Lee jordon does when the weasleys are puking there g uts out to make money. Garrett P.S. He can't be a vampire if you want my reason email me at Aimking0110 at yahoo.com From ajlboston at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 20:33:16 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:33:16 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatelderone" wrote: > > I believe Rowling has said that the girl that Harry will end up with > was in the first book. WHAT? Where?! A.J. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 20:35:13 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:35:13 -0000 Subject: Lily and Alice Longbottom Was: Who were Lily's Hogwarts friends? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eric_and_lauri" wrote: > > Then RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > > > > > Well, my vote for a best friend would be Alice Longbottom. > > > > > > It would definitely explain why Harry has never heard from > > > Lily's best friend. Just my guess though :) > I think you're on to something there. There's also the possibility > of Dorcas Meadows. She was killed BY Voldemort himself, tho we don't > yet know *when* she was killed. Perhaps V. suspected her (as Lily's > best friend and/or Harry's Godmother, if she might have been) of > being secret keeper. Just a theory. Lily's friends could also could > be Hestia Jones (the pink cheeked witch) and/or Marlene McKinnon. > Or, how about the Bones family... Susan's relatives who were killed off... I would like to see her have a more prominent role as the septology winds down, now that she's mentioned again in OOP and Harry at least knows her now... A.J. From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 13 20:40:08 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:40:08 -0000 Subject: Another Literary Comparison Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76971 Well less lit than legend. Spot some parrallels. Stop me if this had been said before. In Arthurian legend which is possibly the only truly "homegrown" British Legend (Alright - Welsh, Celtic whatever...)the hero, Arthur is the son of the King of England, Uther Pendragon, born at a time of great strife etc. He is born as a result of a scandalous and adulterous mating between Uther and Igraine, the Countess of Cornwall, whose husband is an enemy of Uther (this is not disconnected with the fact that Uther fancies Igraine). Luckily - one might say - Gorlois the Earl of Cornwall gets himself killed shortly after this coupling. Meanwhile, Merlin a magician or wizard had fixed it up for Uther to visit Igraine under a glamour as her husband - enabling the conception of Arthur. The price that Merlin extracted for this useful piece of magic is the baby. Arthur is born and Merlin takes the baby away in his arms and places it secretly with a family far away who treat it rather poorly - Arthur is only a squire while his foster brother Kay is to become a Knight and so on. Uther dies in battle. Arthur draws a sword out of a stone (not a hat) to become King of England. He is betrayed by his best friend and greatest companion. He establishes a fellowship of knighthood to combat evil. He is killed in the final battle with his greatest enemy who is his son and nephew at the same time (I don't think this is going to be an element that JKR draws on somehow) - this is because he unknowingly commits incest. He had half sisters but due to the scandal surrounding his birth does not know who his maternal family is. So Arthur has a life-long problem about his identity and background. He is never re-united with his mother and never sees his father. I'm not saying that JKR is re-telling the Arthurian legend cycle - not but what they couldn't bear another telling. The point of this post is to say that I think all the great fantasy stories have echoes of each other which come from myths. While I think the Arthur story is only a distant informant of the HP series, I do think that Harry is an Arthur like figure. June From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 13 20:41:45 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:41:45 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76973 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" >> Mandy wrote: > If James showed a remarkable change > > in year 6, perhaps he just grew up, but it seemed to have > > convinced Lily as well as the faculty he could have been given > the Headboyship. > Golly wrote: > So is Head Boy anyone they choose? Or does he have to be a prefect. > Pip!Squeak replies: Honestly, there are so many different ways of selecting Head Boy/Head Girl in British schools, that JKR can select practically any system she likes. James could be appointed without having been a prefect, James could become an 'extra' prefect in year six, James could be elected by the students ... Take your pick, there'll be a school that does it that way. Pip!Squeak From keltobin at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 15:25:20 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:25:20 -0000 Subject: Writing insturments - why not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76974 > wrote: Plus they use parchment which if I remember > correctly is either waxy or oily paper which a ball point pen would > not be able to write on. > Susan I agree with this. I would also like to add that in ceremonial magic, the writing instruments as well as the "paper/parchment" used to write on are very important to the magic as a whole. Even though Harry and Co. are not using their quills/parchment to write out spells and "Books of Shadow" all the time, they are most likely encouraged to use quills as it is an integral part of wizarding lifestyle. This is my first post so I would like to say Hello to all. I've been enjoying lurking and reading here for a few weeks now. I'm a stay at home mom to 6 kids -- I read the series after people started commenting about my twins (Seamus and Finnegan) being named after a character in HP! My other son with an HP name is Cornelius. Kelly From pentzouli at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 16:11:13 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:11:13 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76975 Marianne: > Then, in OoP, his professed reason for keeping Sirius locked up in > Grimmauld Place, as he states flat out to Harry, was that he wanted > to keep Sirius alive. Okay, is he lying through his teeth here? Or > is he shading the truth? Is he telling Harry his original reason for > insisting Sirius stay hidden, and not telling Harry that > circumstances had changed over the months? In other words, had > Dumbledore's assessment of the situation indicated to him that Sirius > might have to be sacrificed in order to push Harry in a certain > direction? And, that when Sirius showed up at the Dept. of > Mysteries, Dumbledore was presented with a golden oppportunity to > ensure that happened? > > And, if that is indeed the case, how will Harry react to that, should > he ever find out? me, holly : I totally agree with you. I think that had it been his choice, DD would allow Harry to live with Sirius at the end of PoA, but the magic surrounding the Dursleys house was the reason he had to persuade Sirius not to push Harry in the direction of living with him. I think that DD's love for Harry was the only thing that prevented him from having a very clear picture of what to do, and finally, the whole passage with the scene at the Death Room gave me a feeling that DD was not in position to really see what was going on between Bellatrix and Sirius. Of course, this is only what I got from the passage myself, I am not stating here that I am definitely correct. English is my second language (although I really enjoyed reading the fifth book in English, more than the previous four which I read in my native language). I could have been mistaken. But the fact that DD explains to Harry so clearly the intentions of LV by possessing him indicates to us that he is by far persuaded to do anything in the direction of hurting possessed Harry. If he was the least tempted, I don't think that he would have any clear and thorough way of explaining it to Harry. cheers holly_phoenix_11 From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 13 16:48:29 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:48:29 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" > wrote: > > > I thought I detected a certain warmth in his reunion with > McGonagall > > at the end of OotP....(snip) seemed to me rather playful. I > definitely > > got the feeling they were teasing each other; in the earlier books, > > they were primarily school colleagues, and shared the > > competitiveness between their houses. Now, they share more > > important things, and this business of points gained and lost is > > recognized by both to be rather trifling in the long run. > > > Wanda > > CW's horrified thought: > > Perhaps this is the married couple at Hogwarts that has been > anticipated ??? No, I have just come to my senses, she is supposed to > be 70+ and Snape is in his mid-30s. Phew......... Why not? She's a spry healthy witch. If charlie chaplin could have babies in his 70's why can't McGonagall marry Snape. I can just see the chess games over tea. Oh to be the child of that marriage would be bliss. Golly From fc26det at aol.com Wed Aug 13 16:53:02 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:53:02 -0000 Subject: Delores Umbridge Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76977 I think that Delores Umbridge is a Death Eater. She sent dementors after Harry. She is trying harder than anyone else to keep Harry quiet. She goes after Trelawney. Ok, Trelawney is a seer but an apparently poor one. Of course, I don't know how often a good seer actually sees things. Dumbledore is obviousley keeping Trelawney at the school so that she is under the Hogwarts protective properties. He may have even convinced Trelawney that she cannot leave the school grounds. (I seem to remember reading that she rarely even left her own rooms let alone the castle.) Why go after an apparently insignificant teacher? If Umbridge is simply trying to defend the ministry wouldn't it be more prudent to go after McGonnagal or Dumbledore? But she goes after Trelawney. A teacher who apparently is a nothing. No threatening power. Unliked by many of the students and teachers. A joke really compared to the other teachers. It makes no sense unless she is working for Voldemort and knows (as I am sure Voldemort knows) that Trelawney is the one who spoke the prophecey. She goes after Trelawney to get her out of the castle and out from under its protection so that Voldemort can access her. Voldemort would them be able to get into Trelawney's mind and see the prophecy for himself without having to get into the Department of Mysteries. She also is very close to Malfoy and the Slytherins. However, she basically attacks Snape during her evaluation of him. She also is out of control when she contemplates using the unforgivable curse on Harry. How does she know it will work on him unless she has used it before. She has no problem doing things behind the Ministers back (what he doesn't know won't hurt him). She is so evil, evil, evil. I also wonder if she was not controlling Fudge to a point especially where it concerned the educational decrees that she never had a problem getting. Just my thoughts. Susan From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 20:44:54 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813204454.21168.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76978 --- ajlboston wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "greatelderone" > wrote: > > > > I believe Rowling has said that the girl that > Harry will end up > with > > was in the first book. > > WHAT? Where?! > > A.J. > I've heard that it was in non-English magazine (German, I think, but don't hold me to it) but that she said it would be someone from the first book but not Hermione. But I've also heard that it's unconfirmed. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 20:48:55 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:48:55 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > > He makes harry's potions disapear with the same spell Lee jordon does > when the weasleys are puking there g uts out to make money. > Garrett > P.S. He can't be a vampire if you want my reason email me at > Aimking0110 at y... Yes, Snape has a wand and he does use it. The first time Harry attends a potions class Snape makes a comment about wands. In SS Snape mentions there is 'little foolish wand waving here'. Now I think if those of us who believe Snape is a vampire are willing to state why we believe so, then surely you could post on why he can't be . I'll be waiting... I do believe there are several clues in OoP that haven't been discussed before. I'll ask again, why so many hints at Snape/Vampire if he isn't? "K" From pisola6363 at netzero.com Wed Aug 13 19:29:05 2003 From: pisola6363 at netzero.com (occam6363) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:29:05 -0000 Subject: Viktor Krum (first random musing from newbie Occam) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76981 This the first of a few random musings and questions from a newbie, inspired by reading some of the messages and my third reading of OoP. I'll be sending a few messages with different subjects to keep the threads neat -- will I get an O or extra credit from my list elf (greetings Merry Elf!!)? VIKTOR KRUM What's the buzz out there on Viktor? I think he's got all the makings of an important character and I'd be interested in others' opinion. Hermione still corresponds with Viktor because she likes him and because it fits in with her strong social consciousness -- corresponding with Viktor promotes the aim fostering friendship between schools and nations, maintaining a united front against LV. She might even see this correspondence as her duty, apart from any personal attraction to Viktor. She certainly threw her heart and soul into SPEW and the defense of Buckbeak, and was keen to remind H and R throughout GoF, particularly more towards the beginning, that the Triwizard Cup was meant to encourage fellowship between the wizarding schools. I do not agree that she could be saying anything that even indirectly deals with OoP or the fight generally against LV, too stupid for Hermione, too dangerous. (I admit the possibility of Dumbledore perhaps giving her some kind of charm to protect the correspondence, but then I'm at a loss as to why Dumbledore would facilitate OoP-type activity by someone who is not of age.) The most interesting things about Viktor are 1) he's out of school and of age, and 2) he's always seemed ashamed of the dark side of Durmstrang and certainly mortified by the unmasking of Karkaroff's true nature, 3) even though he's a WW-famous Quidditch player, he's always slouching around and seeming gloomy -- in this respect, he reminds me of athletes of the former Soviet-bloc era, who were identified young and vigorously groomed for the glory of the state, not necessarily their own happiness, and 4) he's shown exceptional good taste as well as unguessed-at depths by falling for Hermione -- who'd have picked a slouchy jock to be the first one to ask Hermione out on a date? Viktor seems to be a very well-developed and sympathetic character for someone who's not seen that much page time yet, and I hope we see more of him in the last books. It would be a waste of a potentially heroic (maybe tragic, like Cedric) character if we don't. I'd be surprised if the only thing he did when he got out of Durmstrang was to continue as the Bulgarian seeker. -- call me Occam From pisola6363 at netzero.com Wed Aug 13 19:40:24 2003 From: pisola6363 at netzero.com (occam6363) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:40:24 -0000 Subject: Harry after Hogwarts Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76982 I don't think we've seen any role model yet in the books for what Harry will become. He is sui generis. Perhaps life after Hogwarts for Harry will depend more on finding out what Harry IS, and not on finding out what Harry's going to BECOME. There's more to that boy than Lily's sacrifice and LV's marking him as an equal. How did he get to be the subject of a prophecy in the first place? There is probably something independently special about him. Just as LV is unprecedented, a creature of his own making, I believe that Harry will similarly turn out to be unprecedented, something special apart from the gifts from Lily and LV. I hope that in spite of this, JKR will give Harry some simple peace and fulfillment in his life, no matter how long that life turns out to be. -- Occam From pisola6363 at netzero.com Wed Aug 13 19:37:12 2003 From: pisola6363 at netzero.com (occam6363) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:37:12 -0000 Subject: SHIPs: Two "nots," no "shoulds" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76983 My SHIP cents: I have only two "nots," no "shoulds": Harry is not going to end up with Cho. Duh. Unless she shows in the future some real strength of character not exhibited by any of her actions to date, she's just too far beneath him. Harry is not going to end up with Hermione. That would leave Ron as the odd man out, which makes no sense given the development of everyone's characters and the importance (so far) of the stability of the Trio to the structure of the series. I don't think Ron's character supports a "loner" status. Harry of course might be best off as a loner (and perhaps will end up that way), given the heartache and the danger that's followed him around, which is why I'm agnostic on Hermione/Ron. Hermione/Ron would break up the three-way friendship dynamic, but I definitely think that Harry's love for them would not at all be diminished if Hermione & Ron ended up a couple -- and vice versa. So I think we'd still have a stable Trio with Herminone/Ron, but not with Hermione/Harry. I'm rooting for Ginny -- JKR hasn't yet given any female character besides Ginny (not even Hermione) the experiences and the supreme self-confidence to match Harry's larger-than-life life. Gotta love a girl who was able with perfect assurance to put Harry in his place when he was wallowing in all that misdirected angst over the attack on Arthur Weasley. (I know this is sounding like OBHWF, but that's a by-product. And I don't rule out Ron/Luna, see below.) Luna's cool, what a terrific character, definitely can't be ruled out as a love interest for Harry or Ron. There's been evidence of chemistry between Harry and Luna AND Ron and Luna. She would be a kind of balm for Harry's troubled soul, and as an object of pity, perhaps perfect for Ron, who's got this huge protective urge towards both Ginny and Hermione. She'd also be great for Ron because she seems quite capable of indulging in hero worship with Ron as the object. I'm having a hard time matching Neville up with anyone because he's starting to look tragic hero-y to me. Maybe the next tear-jerking death? I admit I haven't read that many posts on Neville, so anyone who wants to fill me in on the most popular theories about Neville's fate feel free to do so. I have seen the posts regarding Neville perhaps being "the other" of the prophecy and that's intriguing. -- Occam From pisola6363 at netzero.com Wed Aug 13 19:31:56 2003 From: pisola6363 at netzero.com (occam6363) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:31:56 -0000 Subject: Karkaroff and LV's speech at the end of GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76984 I know we didn't hear much about him in OoP, but I'm sure Karkaroff's a dead duck. He seems to me to be the one LV referred to as "too cowardly to return" (because he knows he's toast if LV or a DE gets within wand range). He can't be the one who's "left forever," b/c Karkaroff struck me as still being on the dark side, just too chicken to take his chance at redemption by throwing himself at LV's feet and asking for mercy. Snape's got to be the one who's "left forever," because whatever else snape might be, he's not too cowardly for anything (wonder if the Sorting Hat ever considered him for Gryffindor). I've been surprised to see posts that seemed to imply that Severus is still LV's boy, and I think, not a chance. Not the most vanishingly small chance. I'd love feedback on Karkaroff or direction to good threads discussing him. -- Occam From britta at britta.com Wed Aug 13 20:37:14 2003 From: britta at britta.com (brittadotcom) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:37:14 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76986 B Arrowsmith: > > In the Potterverse are vampires considered to be human? > > > > Yes, in mythology they are classed as derived from humans, but > > does this apply in the WW? > > I've searched the likely sites seeking clarification but can't find > > any canon or near canon references. > > > > It makes a difference to the theory of Snape being one. According > > to MBAWTFT, only humans are allowed wands. greatelderone: > > But Half-humans are allowed wands since we see Lupin carrying one > and > > Hagrid has or had one. > > Inge: > > Just a quick-question. Has Snape ever been shown or told about to > > have a wand? Garrett: > He makes harry's potions disapear with the same spell Lee jordon does > when the weasleys are puking there g uts out to make money. > Garrett > P.S. He can't be a vampire if you want my reason email me at > Aimking0110 at y... Me (Britta): Also in the "showdown" between Sirius and Snape at Grimmauld Place, they both hastily put their wands away when everyone else walked into the room...I guess there are plenty of Snape-with-wand instances, even though it doesn't seem obvious as Potions Master... - Britta http://www.britta.com/hogwarts From sylviablundell at aol.com Wed Aug 13 20:57:46 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:57:46 -0000 Subject: Re Weasley Christian names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76987 Wasn't Percival one of the knights of the Round Table, and Mr. Weasley's name, of course, is Arthur. (Though actually I think the suggestion that Percy is short for Perseus much more thought- provoking). You would think, if they were going to use an old family name, they would have given it to the eldest son, not one half way down the list. Interesting that Percy who is always regarded as the odd one out in the family should be the only one with a magical name. From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 20:58:40 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:58:40 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" > wrote: > > > > > He makes harry's potions disapear with the same spell Lee jordon > does > > when the weasleys are puking there g uts out to make money. > > Garrett > > P.S. He can't be a vampire if you want my reason email me at > > Aimking0110 at y... > > Yes, Snape has a wand and he does use it. The first time Harry > attends a potions class Snape makes a comment about wands. In SS > Snape mentions there is 'little foolish wand waving here'. > > Now I think if those of us who believe Snape is a vampire are willing > to state why we believe so, then surely you could post on why he > can't be . I'll be waiting... > > I do believe there are several clues in OoP that haven't been > discussed before. I'll ask again, why so many hints at Snape/Vampire > if he isn't? > > "K" In SS/PS Quirell has garlic in his turban, now he wouldnt have been able to stand being near him if he were a vampire, and when he is in the pencieve his legs were exposed when he was fliped up side down. And DD might have teacher who is bad once a month but he wouldnt endanger all his students at monster night every night to a monster. Garrett P.S. i would like to see you counter this From redfish5 at onetel.com Wed Aug 13 20:55:26 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:55:26 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Journalistic interpretation or solid evidence? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76989 Extracted from a 2001 interview off quick quotes, so obviously the book hasn't been read, however, if he is stating what rowling said (just not as a quote) then the clues and general feeling in OOTP towards a H/H ship are quite important. Or is the journalist interpreting what rowling has said? If it is his interpretation then how did he know about Quidditch team mate? is Cho a "teammate"? Extract: There will also be further romance following on from Harry Potter And The Goblet Of Fire in which he has a date with a quidditch team- mate - and develops more of an interest in pal Hermione. Rowling said there will be "more boy-girl stuff, inevitably", adding: "They're 15 now, hormones working overtime. And Harry has to ask some questions that I hope the reader will think 'well why hasn't he asked this before'?" Quite a lot too debate here Seb From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 21:07:33 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:07:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76990 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > > Well she already has a bullseye on her head. They are best friends. > He hangs around with her constantly and it was generally believed > that they are a couple. > > Somehow I don't think LV is going to go to great lengths to discern > the truth of the rumours. If he wants to get to Harry through > friends, Hermione would do just fine. > > As would Ron or even Ginny. > > Golly Severus here: I just thought of a completely different tangent, what if Harry, in his fear for his friends, turns? He doesn't want to care or feel for his friends anymore, as to take them out of the equation completely? Harry starts to feel as if his emotions are a weakness instead of the strength as DD told him? And Harry, at this time, does not have much to trust DD for, does just the opposite? Stops caring, and is lead to the dark side? (I know it sounds star-wars- jedi-knight-esque). And Neville, being the true chosen one, steps up and saves the day by defeating LV and Harry, the wanna be LV? Or Ginny, in her infinite wisdom of 15 years is the one not to give up on him and makes him see the error of his way? And brings him back to good just in time to use his secret strength of love to defeat LV and save his friends? Sorry, just a wild tangent that sprouted roots in my head. I would really like to own a pensieve for times like these and be able to empty my mind of errant thoughts. Severus "jeez, that one was weird" Snape From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 21:10:29 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:10:29 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76991 > wrote: > > Isn't it also likely that Snape can sence peoples dislike, without > > them having to show it, by using Legilimency? > > > > Marika > "junediamanti" wrote: > If he's being a double agent, being an tragic anti-hero too, AND > being able to read that no one likes him as well, no wonder he's a > miserable bugger. I wouldn't want to hang with the crowd and do > cocktails either. > > June Laura: Do you really see Snape going into people's minds for personal purposes, though? That seems beneath him somehow. I think it's more in character for him just to assume that people don't like him and (re)act accordingly-based on his assumption, he treats people coldly, whereupon they really do dislike him. I have to hope that members of the Order are better people than that-if he'd give them a chance, they would try to form real friendships with him. Especially now that Sirius is [wipes away stray tear] gone. Jeez, though, can you imagine Severus after 5 or 6 mojitos with the crew? Now there's a scary thought. Release that inner diva, Severus! *evil grin* From rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es Wed Aug 13 21:17:35 2003 From: rubeus_hagrid at wanadoo.es (fridwulfa) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:17:35 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] More Jane Austen References: Message-ID: <002301c361e0$868222f0$9f5a253e@takun> No: HPFGUIDX 76992 "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Emma is undoubtedly Hermione - clever, charming but thinks she knows > everything and has a right to order other people's lives. > Mr. Knightley, the only person who dares to criticise Emma in any > way - could be Snape, possibly Ron. > Miss Bates, muddle-headed gossip - who else but Bertha Jorkins. > Harriet - sweet little idiot who finally grows up, is Ginny > Dear motherly Mrs. Weston is Molly Weasley. > Mr. Elton, slimy flatterer that he is, could be Percy. > Frank Churchill - a Slytherin type if I ever saw one, but who in > Slytherin is capable of fooling Hermione as Frank fools Emma? > Can't find parallels for Jane Fairfax or Mr. Woodhouse (my own > darling favourite character). Anyone help? > Me (Izaskun) And who would be Mr. Martin??? Neville, maybe??? Then we'd have a basis for a Ginny - Neville SHIP. HEHEHE. Cool. Cheers, Izaskun > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 21:19:37 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:19:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813211937.29566.qmail@web12203.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76993 Snape uses his wand quite a bit in the shack (with sparks flying out and all) and in OotP (using it to 'write' on the board). But we are never told what kind of wand, not even the color. Chris --- bibphile wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" > > wrote: > > > Me (Inge): > > Just a quick-question. Has Snape ever been shown > or told about to > > have a wand? > > Didn't he have a wand in COS when he and Lockheart > did the dueling > club? > > bibphile > > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From greatelderone at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 21:21:02 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:21:02 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76994 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > In SS/PS Quirell has garlic in his turban, If you bother reading the conclusion it was Lord Voldemort under the turban. > and when he is in > the pencieve his legs were exposed when he was fliped up side down. And how exactly does that prove that he isn't a vampire? > And DD might have teacher who is bad once a month but he wouldnt > endanger all his students at monster night every night to a monster. > Garrett He is a potions master. No doubt there he can brew a potion as a substitute for real blood. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 21:31:10 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:31:10 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76995 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > > > > Yes, Snape has a wand and he does use it. The first time Harry > > attends a potions class Snape makes a comment about wands. In SS > > Snape mentions there is 'little foolish wand waving here'. "There will be no foolish waving or silly incantations in this class room." > > In SS/PS Quirell has garlic in his turban, now he wouldnt have been > able to stand being near him if he were a vampire, and when he is in > the pencieve his legs were exposed when he was fliped up side down. > And DD might have teacher who is bad once a month but he wouldnt > endanger all his students at monster night every night to a monster. > Garrett > P.S. i would like to see you counter this It isn't garlic that smells, it is Lord Moldywart stuck to the back of Quirrel's head. And just because Snape is potions professor does not mean he has not been schooled in the finer arts of incantations, charms, hexes, jinxes, or in the defence against the dark arts (which he wants to teach very badly). From subrosax at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 21:33:39 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:33:39 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76996 I'm sure this question has been asked and answered a million times on this board, but could someone kindly explain the Snape/Vampire theory to me? We know from the books that Snape eats normal food and walks around in broad daylight. He's not apparently bothered by Quirrel's garlic smell (except perhaps in an aesthetic sense) and in GoF, he sees his reflection in Moody's foe glass. Sounds like a pretty half-assed vampire to me. Even if we allow that he isn't "that" kind of vampire, or that he smears some greasy potion all over his body to protect himself from sunlight, I think we can agree that the need to drink blood would be the bare minimum requirement for someone to be considered a vampire. How then, could DD justify taking Snape as a student, then hiring him as a teacher? Lupin was one thing, but protecting the students and staff from Snape would be a logistical nightmare. Snape's appearence doesn't really suggest much to me either. Half the people in the wizarding world are going around dressed like the Son of Dracula. And where are Snape's gleaming white fangs? The most you could say for his teeth is that they could use a good cleaning and possibly some tartar-control toothpaste. The half-vampire theory makes even less sense to me. How does that work? Isn't that sort of like being half-pregnant? Vampires aren't some seperate species. As far as I'm aware, vampires are, or were at one time, humans. So, does that mean one of Snape's parents was a vampire? If so, at least we know vampires have domestic problems like everyone else. I rather doubt JKR would make Snape a vampire for the simple reason that vampires have been done to death by that Rice woman. If I were her, I wouldn't touch that literary hot-potato with an industrial strength oven mitt. Not to mention all the back-tracking that would have to be done to explain everything. I admit that I don't know a whole lot about vampires. I've read some literary analyses of Stoker's "Dracula", but that's about the extent of it. I am not conversant at all in fantasy/horror literature, and less so in actual vampire folklore (assuming ownership of a couple of Bauhaus records in the 80's doesn't count.) I must be totally out to lunch, somehow, as I cannot understand the Snape/vampire connection. Could someone please explain this to me? Allyson From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 21:35:49 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 14:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813213549.24081.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 76997 KFR never has said once that her vamps are repeled by the usual things. And most conversations have Snape reasonably pegged as a Dhampire or half-vampire. Convention says Dhampires are not affected by garlic, sunlight or have bloodlust impulses. Check out the other posts for this question is already answered. Chris > > In SS/PS Quirell has garlic in his turban, now he > wouldnt have been > able to stand being near him if he were a vampire, > and when he is in > the pencieve his legs were exposed when he was > fliped up side down. > And DD might have teacher who is bad once a month > but he wouldnt > endanger all his students at monster night every > night to a monster. > Garrett > P.S. i would like to see you counter this > > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 13 21:51:28 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:51:28 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76998 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > > I don't think DD chose, I think LV chose who he feared most and > also who fit the prophecy the best. Also we don't know that if LV > had chosen Neville and attacked him, if Neville would have > survived. What I am saying is that LV knew something that we don't > know yet, a piece of infomation crucial to his picking the Potters > over the Longbottoms. If LV had killed Neville, would he have then > seeked out Harry? And if Harry had not been attacked, would he > still be as strong and gifted as he is today? DD did say that > something happened that night and some of LV's powers and traits > were passed to Harry. In LV's attack on the Potters, LV > inadvertantly created the only weapon that could be used to destoy > him? I am still not sure if this would hold true if he attacked > Neville in the same manner, since Neville even says he is almost a > squib. I think this is important - we don't yet have a full picture of what happened in Godric's Hollow, and why it happened. Why DID Voldemort pick the Potters as the threat to be eliminated? It wasn't just Harry he was trying to get; he was after them for some time before his birth, and they had to go into hiding. I still hold to the time travel theory, and I keep seeing little dangling clues that don't seem to lead to anything, but might fit together this way. One of them is a mysterious sentence in CoS, when Harry is looking at Tom Riddle's diary. "And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten. But this was absurd." I think that Harry and Tom Riddle do meet - in Harry's future and Tom's past. This would explain why Voldemort chose Harry and not Neville once he heard about the prophecy; it would be the final piece in the puzzle for him. Some 50 years ago, he'd had some sort of encounter with a certain Harry Potter, maybe not in person, but he'd have learned his name; the name would have meant nothing to him THEN, but whatever happened between them must have been important, because years later, when he was coming to power, he became very interested when the name of "Potter" started cropping up among those who were opposed to him. By the time of his third failed confrontation with them, he must have connected them with the "Harry Potter" he remembered, and when he finally heard of the prophecy, he knew that THIS was where the threat was coming from. He would act to eliminate it by killing Harry, before his birth if possible, but if not, then as soon as he could. This would explain why he didn't care about killing Lily - it didn't matter what she might do after, it was only THIS child he had to worry about. But it turned out not to be so straightforward, because while the risks of changing the past to influence the future are obvious, it's also risky to change the present if it influences the past. This is tricky, but it draws together a number of disconnected threads. By killing Harry in the PRESENT, Voldemort eliminates the future Harry who encounters the past Tom Riddle. In effect, Voldemort is short- circuiting history. He is eliminating a future incident which also acted on his past, and in fact led him to become who he is in the present. As he tells Harry in CoS "Voldemort is my past, present, and future..." The scar on Harry's forehead is the moment when past, present and future all intersected. I can well imagine that this would cause an enormous disruption; in effect, Voldemort was turning all his power upon himself, destroying his own past with the curse that was to destroy Harry. It would explain why the house exploded - not a typical result of the killing curse. And it could explain why Harry did not die - because Voldemort was himself destroying the curse at the same moment he was delivering it. I've never been quite convinced that Lily's death saved Harry's life at that moment; Dumbledore has always spoken of the lingering protection it gave him through the years that followed, after Harry went to the Dursleys. But I just don't think that it could have thwarted a killing curse. For one thing, I can't believe that nobody else had ever tried it before; life is full of stories of mothers dying for their children, or men giving their lives to save others. If doing so could protect a person from the AK, why would it never have happened before? And love is not some unique thing that only Lily possessed - I can't believe that Voldemort had never encountered it before, or had no idea how to deal with it. As an explanation, it's also a bit arbitrary. It doesn't have an inevitability about it; it's just something that Rowling could make up, like one of Madame Pomfrey's antidotes for a nasty hex. But to have Voldemort himself bringing about his own destruction and also saving his enemy would be a very clever and logical way of explaining what happened. Wanda From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 21:56:34 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:56:34 -0000 Subject: Delores Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 76999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > I think that Delores Umbridge is a Death Eater. She sent dementors > after Harry. She is trying harder than anyone else to keep Harry > quiet. She goes after Trelawney. If Umbridge is simply trying to defend the > ministry wouldn't it be more prudent to go after McGonnagal or > Dumbledore? But she goes after Trelawney. It > makes no sense unless she is working for Voldemort and knows (as I am > sure Voldemort knows) that Trelawney is the one who spoke the > prophecey. She goes after Trelawney to get her out of the castle and > out from under its protection so that Voldemort can access her. > Voldemort would them be able to get into Trelawney's mind and see the > prophecy for himself without having to get into the Department of > Mysteries. She also is very close to Malfoy and the Slytherins. > However, she basically attacks Snape during her evaluation of him. > She also is out of control when she contemplates using the > unforgivable curse on Harry. How does she know it will work on him > unless she has used it before. She has no problem doing things > behind the Ministers back (what he doesn't know won't hurt him). She > is so evil, evil, evil. I also wonder if she was not controlling > Fudge to a point especially where it concerned the educational > decrees that she never had a problem getting. Just my thoughts. > Susan Laura: To say that Umbridge is a DE is giving her too much credit, imo. You may be familiar with the "banality of evil" theory that was developed by political philosopher Hannah Arendt after WWII to explain why ordinary people cooperated so readily with the Nazis. (I know I'm treading on dangerous territory here, but bear with me.) Umbridge is a classic example of this process. She is a nasty piece of work but would be relatively harmless in a MoM that was behaving morally. In the absence of moral guidance, her instincts for self-protection (and by extension, the protection of the structure in which she exercises power) and her love of petty rules leads to evil consequences. What she does to Trelawney is power for power's sake. I didn't get the sense that she arrived at Hogwarts with the intent to get rid of DD but rather to keep an eye on him. Once she has her backside covered, though, she can then imagine eliminating anyone powerful who would impede Hogwarts itself becoming a branch of the MoM. That, I think, is what she really wants-control. She could no more control the DEs than she could control DD and friends. The result of someone behaving like Umbridge, however, is that she ends up playing into the hands of the bad guys. They see that they can use her. Her pettiness and her utter lack of imagination work perfectly for them. They need people like her to keep things destabilized and people frightened while they prepare to put their ultimate takeover plans into action. While her victims become sidetracked worrying about what new rules they have to be aware of and making sure their papers are in order (so to speak), the baddies move into positions of power. It's a very clever and subtle plan, and it takes people like Hermione, George and Fred and the DA group to call the bluff of the people trying to work it. They can see the whole situation rather than just its components-and they aren't afraid to point out the emperor's lack of clothing in public. Anyhow, that's my take. Too bad the centaurs didn't chop her up into tiny pieces. From subrosax at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 21:56:48 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:56:48 -0000 Subject: Viktor Krum (first random musing from newbie Occam) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" wrote: > This the first of a few random musings and questions from a newbie, > inspired by reading some of the messages and my third reading of OoP. > I'll be sending a few messages with different subjects to keep the > threads neat -- will I get an O or extra credit from my list elf > (greetings Merry Elf!!)? > > VIKTOR KRUM > > What's the buzz out there on Viktor? I think he's got all the makings > of an important character and I'd be interested in others' opinion. > > Hermione still corresponds with Viktor because she likes him and > because it fits in with her strong social consciousness -- > corresponding with Viktor promotes the aim fostering friendship > between schools and nations, maintaining a united front against LV. > She might even see this correspondence as her duty, apart from any > personal attraction to Viktor. She certainly threw her heart and soul > into SPEW and the defense of Buckbeak, and was keen to remind H and R > throughout GoF, particularly more towards the beginning, that the > Triwizard Cup was meant to encourage fellowship between the wizarding > schools. I do not agree that she could be saying anything that even > indirectly deals with OoP or the fight generally against LV, too > stupid for Hermione, too dangerous. (I admit the possibility of > Dumbledore perhaps giving her some kind of charm to protect the > correspondence, but then I'm at a loss as to why Dumbledore would > facilitate OoP-type activity by someone who is not of age.) > > The most interesting things about Viktor are 1) he's out of school > and of age, and 2) he's always seemed ashamed of the dark side of > Durmstrang and certainly mortified by the unmasking of Karkaroff's > true nature, 3) even though he's a WW-famous Quidditch player, he's > always slouching around and seeming gloomy -- in this respect, he > reminds me of athletes of the former Soviet-bloc era, who were > identified young and vigorously groomed for the glory of the state, > not necessarily their own happiness, and 4) he's shown exceptional > good taste as well as unguessed-at depths by falling for Hermione -- > who'd have picked a slouchy jock to be the first one to ask Hermione > out on a date? > > Viktor seems to be a very well-developed and sympathetic character > for someone who's not seen that much page time yet, and I hope we see > more of him in the last books. It would be a waste of a potentially > heroic (maybe tragic, like Cedric) character if we don't. I'd be > surprised if the only thing he did when he got out of Durmstrang was > to continue as the Bulgarian seeker. > > -- call me Occam I am thrilled that you brought this up! I was just thinking about this the other day after doing a re-read of GoF. I thought the romance between Viktor and Hermione was absolutely charming! I would love to see more of him in the next books, and I don't mind saying that I would rather see Hermione with Viktor than with Ron. He seems much more complex and interesting to me. It would be a waste of a great character if he doesn't show up again. Allyson From sylviablundell at aol.com Wed Aug 13 21:57:54 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:57:54 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77001 Has anyone out there read Robert Tressell's great book The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists? The attitude of the house elves is precisely that of the working-class characters the hero, Frank Owen, is trying to help. Tressell calls them "philantropists" because they are happy to give away the fruits of their labours to their "betters" who are happy to exploit them. "House elves has no right to be unhappy when there is work to be done and masters to be served" forsooth!! Admitted Hermione goes about it in a rather ham-fisted way, but I prefer her attitude to Ron's, who doesn't give a damn about house-elves, so long as they get a decent breakfast on the table at the right time. P.S. An earlier poster thought the book was about the nobility of the working class. It's nothing of the kind. Say rather sheer breathtaking stupidity and poverty of ambition. From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 22:25:27 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:25:27 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77002 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: I still hold to the time > travel theory, and I keep seeing little dangling clues that don't > seem to lead to anything, but might fit together this way. . . . > Harry and Tom Riddle do meet - in Harry's future and Tom's past. > This would explain why Voldemort chose Harry and not Neville once he > heard about the prophecy; > > Wanda This could play into the first chapter of book 4. The dark haired teenager that Frank saw around the Riddle's house the day of their deaths could have been Harry, as he and Riddle look alike; this would have been a good time for Harry and Tom to meet. And Tom could have been after the Potters because he 1) thought that boy had been James (as Harry and James look alike); or 2) knew Harry would show up eventually, and if he got James out of the way Harry would never exist. -kg From dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 13 22:30:39 2003 From: dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca (Lee) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:30:39 -0000 Subject: Re Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77003 *snip* > Wasn't Percival one of the knights of the Round Table, and Mr. > Weasley's name, of course, is Arthur. (Though actually I think the > suggestion that Percy is short for Perseus much more thought- > provoking). You would think, if they were going to use an old family > name, they would have given it to the eldest son, not one half way > down the list. Interesting that Percy who is always regarded as the > odd one out in the family should be the only one with a magical name. All the Weasley males seem to have royal names Arther Bill (short for William) Charley (for Charles) Percy (Percival) Ron (Ronald) They are all royal names. Molly and Ginny I'm leaving off here as Molly isn't short for anything that I know of, but could possibly be a royal name. But Virginia is, lol! Lee From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Wed Aug 13 22:39:45 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:39:45 -0000 Subject: Re Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77004 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lee" wrote: > *snip* > > Wasn't Percival one of the knights of the Round Table, and Mr. > > Weasley's name, of course, is Arthur. (Though actually I think the > > suggestion that Percy is short for Perseus much more thought- > > provoking). You would think, if they were going to use an old > family > > name, they would have given it to the eldest son, not one half way > > down the list. Interesting that Percy who is always regarded as > the > > odd one out in the family should be the only one with a magical > name. > > All the Weasley males seem to have royal names > > Arther > Bill (short for William) > Charley (for Charles) > Percy (Percival) > Ron (Ronald) > > They are all royal names. > > Molly and Ginny I'm leaving off here as Molly isn't short for > anything that I know of, but could possibly be a royal name. But > Virginia is, lol! > > Lee Me here: Molly is a pet name for Mary. Yes that is a royal name as well. (ha ha I think :D ) Just wanted 'ta share... I never noticed they all had royal names.. But, I don't remember a good queen Virginia... am I missing something.. Thanks Tj From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 13 22:44:59 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:44:59 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77005 > >> Mandy wrote: > > If James showed a remarkable change > > > in year 6, perhaps he just grew up, but it seemed to have > > > convinced Lily as well as the faculty he could have been given > > the Headboyship. > > > Golly wrote: > > So is Head Boy anyone they choose? Or does he have to be a > prefect. > > > > Pip!Squeak replies: > Honestly, there are so many different ways of selecting Head > Boy/Head Girl in British schools, that JKR can select practically > any system she likes. James could be appointed without having been a prefect, James could become an 'extra' prefect in year six, James > could be elected by the students ...> Take your pick, there'll be a school that does it that way. Mandy again: Golly, as I said in the first part of my post the headboy/girl is almost alway a prefect but there are exceptions. In most British schools Headboy and Headgirl are chosen by the faculty. Unless this has changed in the 15 or so years I've been out of school and gone democratic but I doubt it. Mandy From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 13 22:47:14 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:47:14 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Re Weasley Christian names References: Message-ID: <3F3ABFF2.000003.40899@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 77006 Tj Me here: Molly is a pet name for Mary. Yes that is a royal name as well. (ha ha I think :D ) Just wanted 'ta share... I never noticed they all had royal names.. But, I don't remember a good queen Virginia... am I missing something.. Me - Well firstly there has been some debate about whether Ginny's name is actually Virginia - could be Guenevere. But anyway Virginia (the state) is named after Elizabeth I the Virgin queen. So Ginny's name could be described as royal K From slytherin501 at yahoo.es Wed Aug 13 21:36:45 2003 From: slytherin501 at yahoo.es (Sembei Grindelwald) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:36:45 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Watching Over Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77007 HP1: SS "And it showed your friend Ron himself as head boy." "How did you know --?" "I don't need a cloak to become invisible," said Dumbledore gently. ***** Something gold was glinting just above him. The Snitch! He tried to catch it, but his arms were too heavy. He blinked. It wasn't the Snitch at all. It was a pair of glasses. How strange. He blinked again. The smiling face of Albus Dumbledore swam into view above him. ***** He smiled and popped the golden-brown bean into his mouth. Then he choked and said, "Alas! Ear wax!" HP5: OotP 'Fizzing Whizzbee,' sang Umbridge; the stone gargoyle jumped aside, the wall behind split open, and they ascended the moving stone staircase. They reached the polished door with the griffin knocker, but Umbridge did not bother to knock, she strode straight inside, still holding tight to Harry. ***** Harry stared fixedly at the first question. It was several seconds before it occurred to him that he had not taken in a word of it; there was a wasp buzzing distractingly against one of the high windows. Slowly, tortuously, he at last began to write an answer. ***** From sugarv at lycos.co.uk Wed Aug 13 22:57:35 2003 From: sugarv at lycos.co.uk (Viktoria Sugar ) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:57:35 +0100 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall Message-ID: <1060811855021257@lycos-europe.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77008 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > I thought I detected a certain warmth in his reunion with McGonagall > at the end of OotP. Me: I also have the feeling McGonagall wanted to talk to Snape - about what, I can only guess (stuff related to the Order, I suppose) (by the way, is *she* in the Order? I think she should be). First they greeted each other, then McGonagall sent Crabbe and Goyle to her office with bag and cloak, then they awarded/took points, and finally McGonagall told Harry and Malfoy to get out into the grounds. That means she and Snape had a chance to have a private chat - what other reason could she possibly have to make sure the kids were not around? Just makes me curious what the chat was about... Viki Film & TV Extras urgently required in your area - See Yourself in major Films & TV? Call 0907 1512440 to Register. calls cost 150pm [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jestahijinx at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 22:50:27 2003 From: jestahijinx at hotmail.com (Jesta Hijinx) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 22:50:27 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Ginny's Sudden Personality Change Believeable? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77009 > > > Buttercup's original message: > > > > > > >I'm wondering if Ginny's 180 degree personality change > > > >is plausible. > > > Steve B replies: > > > > > > I agree that Ginny's personality has changed drastically, but I >disagree > > > that it is unbelievable. First of all, we barely even see her in > > books 3 and > > > 4, so its been 3 years. Nobody's personality changes faster than >a young > > > teenage girl. > > > >Sydney: > > > I AM an expert on otherwise outgoing teenage girls who turn into >dithering ninnies in > > the presence of their crush! I often cringed to think of what > > impression I must be leaving the Boy of My Dreams with. > > > Having suffered from Crush-Induced Brain-Cloud syndrome, I badly > > wanted to see Ginny come into her own. > > > >Me (Margaret): >I just had to post that I am in total agreement with Sydney on this >one. I personally am one of those people who never shuts up, and is >generally making (good hearted) jokes at her friend's expense (is it >any wonder my favorite characters are Fred and George?) but who >couldn't form a coherent sentence when around a boy I was interested >in in high school (still sneaks up on me occassionally). My friends >actually found it an amusing indicator of who I currently had a crush >on at the time. Luckily I went through crushes like socks, so after >my affection switched to another guy, I went back to my real >personality. A (former) crush remarked on this turn-around on more >than one occassion. (my friends were forbidden from revealing the >cause, though ;-) > >So yes, Ginny's evolving into a more outgoing character was not only >realistic, I actually expected it to happen. > >~Margaret > Now Jesta: First of all, we haven't really *seen* enough of Ginny to argue that her personality has "changed 180 degrees". Yes, she gets all twittery and clumsy in front of her pre-adolescent crush when she's a few years younger; as Margaret notes, that's *not* uncommon and not that big of a deal - although it seems so at the time. :-) Secondly, the remark about Ginny "never shutting up" comes from the very prejudiced eye of one of numerous older brothers. I wouldn't take it all that seriously. What I think is far more revealing and worth noting are the conversations she's had with Hermione over the years she's now known her - it seems as though Ginny was hiding her light under a bushel as far as her older brothers were concerned, preferring to 'fly below the radar' rather than get into such obvious scrapes as Fred and George did. She's proven herself clever, resourceful and courageous this year; and there really is not much evidence to say that she *wasn't* before this, since she is (rightly) offstage for much of the time with her own year and her own set of friends once she comes to Hogwarts. So I don't think it's a "sudden personality change" at all; I think it's what is known as "maturing". JH _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From drdara at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 23:07:27 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:07:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Other Children's Lit (Re: [HPforGrownups] Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030813230727.75654.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77010 I've just started reading a series called Redwall, about mice and such. The first book Redwall is about these warrior rats comming to take over Redwall Abbey, and one of the rat in the story os called Wormtail and he just lost his paw in an accident. The books are by Brian Jacques and are compared to Watership down, found in the kiddies section of the library and were published starting in 1986. \ Danielle --- arcum42 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth > > wrote: > > At 05:16 PM 8/9/2003 +0000, feetmadeofclay wrote: > > >And I would like to know if Potter is the only > children's lit you > > >are reading. Or what books you loved as kids. > And of course why... > > > > Another series that I read and enjoy is Lemony > Snicket's A Series > > of Unfortunate Events. I find its sense of humor > entertaining. I > > also like the break from traditional children's > stories...because > > none of the stories in the series ends happily. > The speculations > > into the deeper mysteries in the book are also > very entertaining. > > I absolutely loved Susan Coopers "The Dark is > Rising" series, and > still do. (Book 2, "The Dark is Rising, especially, > as I accidentally > started the series with that one, and still find it > the best of the > series) > > The writing, imagery, and back story was wonderful > on this series. (A > piece of fanfiction that is an excellent crossover > between HP & "The > Dark is Rising" has been written, too, "Harry Potter > and The Legacy > of Light".) > > Two things I noticed on rereading: Will Stanton's > father is named > James, and the towns postmistress is named Mrs. > Pettigrew... > > --Arcum > > __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rredordead at aol.com Wed Aug 13 23:07:39 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:07:39 -0000 Subject: Dorcas Meadows: who was she? (was snape's love) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77011 > Remi and Atropos posted about the women Snape could have loved. > Another possiblity is the mysterious Dorcas Meadows--a woman in the > order who was killed by Voldemort personally (It must mean that she > was pretty important) What does anybody think? Barbara Dorcas must have been very important to have been killed by LV himself. LV simply does not do his own dirty work, why should he when he was almost at the top of his power and had legions of loyal DE's to do it for him. And they did it so well too. The only other people LV gave the personal touch to were Lily and James Potter in his attempt to get at Harry, and the reason for that was because LV had learned this baby could quite possibly be the only human in the universe who could kill him! I wouldn't trust that execution to anyone else either. Another thought I had about Dorcas was the whole chapter she was mentioned in seemed very contrived. The whole business with Molly Weasely's Woes was devastating yes, but obvious, right? After all Molly is a mother and the death of her children is of course her greatest fear. After rereading the chapter again I began to think it was written to cover the revelation of some other piece of important information that JKR is feeding to us in preparation for later. The only new pieces of information were the introduction of the original members of the Order Mad Eye Moody showed Harry in the photo. And of that just about everyone else has a description of death, all except Dorcus. One last thought, how does Moody know Dorcas was killed personally by LV? There has to have been a witness. Who? So who was Dorcas Meadows?? And what did she represent or know? any thoughts. Mandy From sydpad at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 23:11:05 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:11:05 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > I'm sure this question has been asked and answered a million times on > this board, but could someone kindly explain the Snape/Vampire theory > to me? > > Personally I can't stand the Vampire theory, but the evidence IS compelling. You can find it exhaustively discussed at Fantastic Posts here: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/snape.html#vampire . Most of it is mightly flimsy, but the Vampire Essay hints ARE very JKR. Lupin ushers Harry and Neville out of Snape's office saying he 'needs to talk to them about his vampire essay'-- only a couple of weeks after Snape assigned the werewolf essay. Vampires were not listed on the original curriculum. A bit later, Neville is dithering over the same vampire essay, when Snape suddenly appears in a mighty bad temper. Of course, Snape in a temper isn't evidence of anything! But it is hint-y in JKR kind of way. Then there's the oddly pointed mention in OoP, "Snape never eats here". For my part, I just find it aesthetically displeasing for Snape to be a vampire-- it's TOO MUCH GOTH. He's already nearly over the top as it is! If a vampire is introduced, I want it to be a fat, belching, lorry-driver. Also, sunlight, garlic, yadda yadda... the main point of vampires is that they're UNDEAD. They don't age or die. I'm not a vampire fan, but a mortal vampire isn't a vampire in my book, it's just someone who drinks blood. Sydney From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 13 23:30:11 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:30:11 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Reading Minds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" wrote: > Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry "closer than he > realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. The best explanation to how he knows so much is that he was there when the incidents happened. I personally favor the idea that Dumbledore is (yet another) unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we see during Harry's transfiguration OWL. I agree that Dumbledore must be an animagus (the greatest wizard in the world and former transfiguration teacher wouldn't pass on that opportunity!). I do remember reading in a post one time that he might not be unregistered, either, b/c Hermione only looked at registered animagus for "this century." So he would be using this skill to watch Harry, but I also think he relies heavily on other people to pass info on to him. We didn't find out until Book 5 (or maybe book 4 for some people) that Mrs. Figg is always keeping an eye on Harry, as well as Mundungus and Mr. Tibbles, when he's with the Dursleys. Then there's the Weasley's at the Burrow; Snape, Lupin, McGonagall and presumably fake!Moody at Hogwarts. And we find out in Book 4 that Sirius passes on info from his correspondence to Dumnbledore. My guess is Harry rarely has a moment of privacy unless he's bathing, which he never seems to do!! Ariadne From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 23:39:14 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:39:14 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: <1060811855021257@lycos-europe.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77014 Wanda: > I also have the feeling McGonagall wanted to talk to Snape . . . (by the way, is *she* in the Order? I think she should be). Me: Minor point: McGonagall visits Grimmauld Place while Harry is there. Harry notes that its odd to see her in a muggle dress and coat. You have to wonder what McGonagall says about Harry to Snape. As seen in the career guidance scene amongst others, McGonagall likes Harry as a student and believes in him. Must create some interesting Snape-McGonagall discussions in the staff room. -kg From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 23:42:09 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:42:09 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77015 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I think this is important - we don't yet have a full picture of what > happened in Godric's Hollow, and why it happened. Why DID Voldemort > pick the Potters as the threat to be eliminated? It wasn't just > Harry he was trying to get; he was after them for some time before > his birth, and they had to go into hiding. Am I the only one who thought that Voldemort was planning to kill both Harry and Neville. Maybe he just found Harry first. I guess that's not very satisfying but it makes sense. I mean, if Voldemort was willing to kill one baby to protect himself, why not two? It's not like he didn't kill people all the time anyway. Of course he was after James and Lily. They were fighting him. They weren't the only people he was after by any means. Didn't Moody mention some witch that was killed by Voldemort personally? bibphile From bibphile at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 23:46:19 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:46:19 -0000 Subject: Re Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77016 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lee" wrote: > *snip* > All the Weasley males seem to have royal names > > Arther > Bill (short for William) > Personally, I think Bill is short for Bilius after the Uncle Bilius Ron mentioned in PoA. There's not reason it has to be Willam, just because it's more common. Of course, there's also no reason it couldn't be. I just like the idea of somebody as cool as Bill having a name like Bilius. bibphile From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 13 16:54:50 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:54:50 -0000 Subject: Origin of word Muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookraptor11" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > wrote: > > Has anyone come up with a theory of where JKR got the > world 'muggles'? > > Can't find anything on Fantastic posts or by searching the archive. > I > > came across a reference to Muggletonians today, which turned out to > > be an obscure UK religious sect in the 1600s. Did not seem a very > > obvious source ! Any ideas ? > > > > CW > > I don't know if this has ever been mentioned before, but there was a > children's book published in the 1960's I think (I read it when I was > 10 or 11 back in the early 70s), The Gammage Cup. The main > character's name was Muggles. I remembered the book when the lawsuit > with the other author came up a few years back. > > Donna My personal favourite theory is that it is a refrence to pot. Golly From issyippon at hotmail.com Wed Aug 13 20:21:19 2003 From: issyippon at hotmail.com (aint_no_muggle) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:21:19 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77018 Someone earlier said > > Who knows? > > Harry's girl may not have been even mentioned in the books yet. We can only speculate. That is why this is so much fun. What's to say Harry ends up with a girl? Why not a guy? Perhaps Malfoy? iz From sylviablundell at aol.com Wed Aug 13 23:58:52 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:58:52 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian Names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77019 I certainly hadn't noticed that they are royal names (William, Charles etc.)as the names are so common in England. Who exactly is King Ronald.? Dont recollect him. Or King Percival either. There is a Molly Queen of the Beggars in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books (Feet of Clay, I think). From redfish5 at onetel.com Wed Aug 13 21:10:03 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:10:03 -0000 Subject: SHIPs: Two "nots," no "shoulds" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" wrote: > My SHIP cents: I have only two "nots," no "shoulds": (snip) > Harry is not going to end up with Hermione. That would leave Ron as > the odd man out, which makes no sense given the development of > everyone's characters and the importance (so far) of the stability of > the Trio to the structure of the series. I don't think Ron's > character supports a "loner" status. Harry of course might be best > off as a loner (and perhaps will end up that way), given the > heartache and the danger that's followed him around, which is why I'm > agnostic on Hermione/Ron. Hermione/Ron would break up the three- way > friendship dynamic, but I definitely think that Harry's love for them > would not at all be diminished if Hermione & Ron ended up a couple -- > and vice versa. So I think we'd still have a stable Trio with > Herminone/Ron, but not with Hermione/Harry. > > I'm rooting for Ginny -- JKR hasn't yet given any female character > besides Ginny (not even Hermione) the experiences and the supreme > self-confidence to match Harry's larger-than-life life. Gotta love a > girl who was able with perfect assurance to put Harry in his place > when he was wallowing in all that misdirected angst over the attack > on Arthur Weasley. > > (I know this is sounding like OBHWF, but that's a by-product. And I > don't rule out Ron/Luna, see below.) > > Luna's cool, what a terrific character, definitely can't be ruled out > as a love interest for Harry or Ron. There's been evidence of > chemistry between Harry and Luna AND Ron and Luna. She would be a > kind of balm for Harry's troubled soul, and as an object of pity, > perhaps perfect for Ron, who's got this huge protective urge towards > both Ginny and Hermione. She'd also be great for Ron because she > seems quite capable of indulging in hero worship with Ron as the > object. (snip) Good post occam, a sentiment I agree with. I would like to see Luna as a potential romantic interest for any male character. I don't think Harry/Luna would work but I would certainly not be suprised at Luna/Ron or others. I think J.K. Rowling will neeed to pair off a few people simply for...bear with me here...believability factor. The idea that not one of Harry's mates found a partner (because it would be obvious, wouldn't it, thats another interesting point) is a little unbelivable though not totally so. So I expect a few short-term casual pairings and maybe one long-term serious pairing outside the main three. In the main three, a one-day thing with a kiss will be a serious matter because they are the central characters. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 13 23:59:50 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:59:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > Am I the only one who thought that Voldemort was planning to kill > both Harry and Neville. Maybe he just found Harry first. I guess > that's not very satisfying but it makes sense. I mean, if Voldemort > was willing to kill one baby to protect himself, why not two? It's > not like he didn't kill people all the time anyway. Dumbledore says that Voldemort "chose" Harry, as the one most likely to be a danger to him. And I have the impression that the Potters were *special* - clearly, the danger they were in was immense, as they finally resorted to the use of a Fidelius Charm to protect them. I can't recall any mention that the Longbottoms had to do the same, so it doesn't sound as if Voldemort considered both babies equal threats. And consider, Voldemort must have heard about the prophecy in the spring before Harry was born (it was a cold, wet night, according to Dumbledore). It wasn't until almost 18 months later that he finally got his chance to kill the Potters, and yet in that time, there was no attempt to murder Neville as well. It doesn't sound as if he was devoting equal effort to getting both kids; it sounds as if he made his decision, and put all his energies toward finding and killing Harry Potter. Wanda From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 23:03:20 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 23:03:20 -0000 Subject: Ron's consolations (was: Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match...) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77022 Hi everybody. I agree with what Golly said about a possible Harry/Hermione relationship. However, if JKR were to follow the Christ/redemption path (or if Harry choosed the dark side, as I have just read), all these thoughts would become instantaneously pointless cos' Harry woul say something like "I got my destiny to fulfil, Hermy, and this is why I'm definitly not the one you need ... Viktor is the man ! (I must admit that I'd prefer to see Hermione with Krum rather than Ron. After all, we tend to prefer Ron because he is always there, why wouldn't Krum be a bad choice for Hermione ?) Conrcening the argument stating that Harry would reject Hermione, fearing for her life, leading her to dry her tears with Ron while Harry would engage in a relationship with Ginny, I tend to disagree : Hermione is determined enough to not endure such a refusal and its consequences - say, Ron as a second-choice (and besides, Ginny's life would be threatened as well should she engage a relationship with Harry, so the latter would realize that it shouldn't prevent him from living his own life with whomever he wants, especially if his power is the true power of love. Of course it could be "abstract love", but I do not think that this is love at all. If Harry cannot love a singular person, don't expect him to love the whole world). Another thing that makes me feel (hope ?) that a Harry/Hermione relationship is something that we should expect is the fact that Harry certainly doesn't want to feel too isolated again, especially after Sirius' loss (remember his outburst of furry at the beginning of OoP when he first met Ron and Hermione ? This was the toughest of several in the book). Again, since the one person that constantly keeps supporting him is Hermy (see the Rita Skeeter example for instance), I dare say that she has become the closest character to Harry (forget Dumbledore, Ron, Lupin, etc.), and the one that really succeeds in helping him (let's repeat it : forget Dumbledore ; if you're not convinced compare his attitude towards Harry's dreams : who was the wisest, Dumbledore - doesn't talk to Harry anymore, asks Snape to give him lessons - or Hermione - had Harry followed her advice, Sirius would still be there). Another example seems very intesting to me on the symbolical point of view. Remember with who Hermione was when Ron's triumph as a goal- keeper occurred ? A clue, first letter is H... Talking about that makes me think of something that concerns the whole scheme of OoP. In this book we see Ron achieving ALL his goals, all his dreams, just as expressed in PS when he was looking in the mirror. He becomes a prefect AND plays Quidditch (actually, he is the new star of the G team). Maybe that's the compensation he gets throughout OoP, for his dreams become true but at the same time this is made possible at a great cost as Hermione seems to withdraw. One last thing, it has also been said that Harry and Hermione would have nothing to say if they had a love-affair. This leads me to add two comments : a) Same problem (perhaps even worse) with Ron. b) Hermione isn't just interested in someone because he or she has problems. Even if this was true, she would then find Ron REALLY uninteresting and boring. Quite long, isn't it. Well, see ya ;-) AAm. From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 13 16:53:23 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:53:23 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! (the internet) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Inge" > wrote: >the books are set in the mid to late 90s after > all, > > and he has spent at least five years at a Muggle school. I refuse > to > > believe that he and Hermione don't know about computers and the > > communication possibilities they offer. > > >Come on JKR.. > It just occurs to me that a nice yahoo address and a library card would do Harry wonders. I am assuming English libraries have free internet access of course. Surely if the gang is stupid enough to use the fire which they know is being watched, they wouldn't have worried about sending eachother emails. Wow... That never occured to me before... Thanks Golly From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 13 13:54:46 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 13:54:46 -0000 Subject: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House In-Reply-To: <003d01c3619c$23f5a740$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > > From: Wanda Sherratt > > <He lies without any hesitation, and to anyone, and on subjects of no importance whatsoever. It's practically his default setting. He's often "angry" when he does it, too, especially when he's lying to his friends, and that seems to be presented as a good enough reason. It's one of the reasons I didn't like Harry in this book; not just the incessant screaming fits and sulks, but his lying and laziness are moral flaws that seemed to suddenly come out of nowhere. > > ---------------- > > Just sounds like a normal teenager to me :) Really? Most teenagers lie to their friends and everyone they know about anything and everything? Parents maybe ... but many have decent working relationships with their parents (who BTW aren't dumb as bricks and can tell when a kid is lying). Sorry but I can't say it was average teenage behaviour... Because it simply isn't. Some kids are like that. On average most kids aren't reflexive liars. People (and little CHILDREN TOO) tend to lie when they have something to gain. > > Seriously, his behaviour is fairly typical of someone in the awkward inbetween stage of development - not quite adult enough to be taken seriously by the adult community, still being coddled and condescended to, but expected to start behaving in an appropriately adult manner without any of the benefits (or responsibilities). Not one thing or another, and not coping too well. Sure but Harry was always capable of handling himself. He was mature (unaturally so) and he knew right from wrong. So that should continue unless he had a personality transplant over the summer. Gone is boyscout!Harry - here is Teenager!Harry.... I find it hard to believe that the Harry we knew is going to grow over one month into the Harry that is. Maybe the problem is that Boyscout!Harry simply wasn't realistic. Given that he had 4 books behind him, I think it would have been nice to at least have nods to the idea that kids don't morph into Average Teenagers. From my experience they become teenage versions of themselves. They generally retain their personalities or shuck them through hard work - Ginny might be an overdone and poorly written example. It is rather hard to just become someone completely different overnight. But don't worry Boyscout Harry will be back. Afterall that is what heros are.... He has love inside him ... > Harry is also reflecting the adults around him. Everywhere he turns, he finds he has been lied to, things have been kept from him 'for his own good' or 'until the right time', people take out their own anger and insecurities on him for no reason he can see, people don't trust him, and he is finding different, hidden aspects of people that means he sees them in a new light, usually at odds with his established view of them. Since when does Harry reflect the behaviour around him? He never has; why start now? Besides I think many teenagers are far more demanding than Harry was. I kept wondering why he never demanded to know more if that is what he wanted? If he's so rebellious and angry why not lash out in a way that is geared to getting what he wants? If he wanted to know why he had to stay with the Dursleys, why not ask and refuse to go until he got an answer? If he wanted to know if he was possessed - ask someone. If he wanted Sirius to stop treating him like James most rebellious kids would just scream "I'm not James!" or something to that effect. If he wanted to know what was going on, why not barge right into the meeting sit down and demand to stay and refuse to leave. Or how about walking right up to DD and looking him straight in the eye and demanding to know why you are being ignored? Most kids do a bit of both. They complain and they demand. Average kids don't take to being kept in the dark. And in this situation there was no reason for Harry to go along and take it - especially since he was so angry. I think particularly the talk with McGonnagal shows how conviently constructed Harry's attitude is. Someone said there is an amazing amount of times the opportunity to just have a simple discussion is just passed over. Too many times to seem intelligent or sane. For instance ... It was obvious to Snape that Harry wasn't trying with Occulumency. He'd be reporting to DD. What happens? Nothing. The fate of the wizarding world rests on this boy's shoulders but they do nothing to ensure he's doing what he is supposed to. Well you know what they say about assuming.... > There is also the fact he could well become the salvation or destruction of both the WW and the mundane world, and has no idea how, that he has to come to terms with. > > All this, and raging hormones, too. Yes yes... Those hormones. Because no boy ever kept his eye on a girl and his brain in his head at the same time. No boy ever managed to do his work, struggle through rough times and not be entirely thrown by hormones... Wow we should have told that to all those boys who for centuries ran farms, helped their families through famine and hardship, ran countries, went to college, became clergy, went to war, learned a trade - all admist their teenage years. That would be simply impossible with all those hormones raging. Teenage boys are really good for nothing at that age. So... let us not forget how stupid boys get when hormones enter the picture. Except Neville seems devoid of them and remains the sane pleasant child he always was. How'd that happen? Guess he's a late bloomer. Golly From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 14 00:01:42 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:01:42 -0000 Subject: Origin of word Muggles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > My personal favourite theory is that it is a refrence to pot. > As a gardener, I prefer to think that it's derived from "Mugwort", a plant whose leaves were used to flavour beer before hops were used. It was also thought to have magical properties! Wanda From bibphile at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 00:06:08 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:06:08 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77026 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: It > doesn't sound as if he was devoting equal effort to getting both > kids; it sounds as if he made his decision, and put all his energies > toward finding and killing Harry Potter. > I really agree with the bulk of what you said. I do think he considered Harry more dangerous and went after Harry first. But I also believe he would have gone after Neville after he'd killed Harry. Might as well play it safe. bibphile From catportkey at aol.com Thu Aug 14 00:06:24 2003 From: catportkey at aol.com (catportkey at aol.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 20:06:24 EDT Subject: Harry's eyes Message-ID: <11d.251687cd.2c6c2c80@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77027 This question must have been asked before, but I missed the answer. If the school's hospital has remedies to grow back bones, a plant to bring Miss. Morris back and cures to make H's teeth grow shorter, how come they can't improve eye sight? Even DD wears glasses. What is it about the eyes that they can't get 20/20 vision? If I were LV, all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- and finish him off ( unless Harry is like Luke Skywalker, who has the FORCE with him and can zap attacks blindfolded). Pook [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 14 00:35:52 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:35:52 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77028 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thetruthisoutthere_13" wrote: > This could play into the first chapter of book 4. The dark haired > teenager that Frank saw around the Riddle's house the day of their > deaths could have been Harry, as he and Riddle look alike; this > would have been a good time for Harry and Tom to meet. And Tom could > have been after the Potters because he 1) thought that boy had been > James (as Harry and James look alike); or 2) knew Harry would show > up eventually, and if he got James out of the way Harry would never > exist. > I'm thinking something along those lines, too. We'll have to wait until future books come out, as there just are not enough clues to make an airtight case. But with Rowling's love of "meaningful" names, I think the fact that she keeps talking about the "Riddle House" is a hint: there is a riddle about this house. There's something about the whole scene at the opening of book 4 that is not what it seems - a riddle is something that fools us and puzzles us, and isn't obvious. I think that we're going to find that that episode at the Riddle House is not what we thought it was. Maybe even Tom Riddle was not named solely to form an anagram - maybe there's a riddle about his identity, too. Wanda From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 00:47:03 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 17:47:03 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <191453125545.20030813174703@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77029 Hi, Wednesday, August 13, 2003, 12:22:51 PM, feetmadeofclay wrote: > Well this is just hilarious... I AM NOT AN H/Her. This is so > bizzare... Why am I even posting this? My point is only that OOTP > is an H/Her's dream. I'm not sure what caused this reaction!? What does this have to do with being an H/Her? I just posted my opinion on the subject, and didn't say anywhere you were for H/Her (not that it would make a difference if you were). I also elaborated why I thought they might not be a great match and why I didn't think Harry necessarily means Hermione is pretty by saying he doesn't think she's ugly, but you didn't respond to that. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:01:15 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:01:15 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ecaplan_52556" wrote: > If anyone is having any trouble seeing how a Ron and Hermoine > relationSHIP would play out, just take a look at Mr. and Mrs. > Weasley. I can just see in my mind's eye an adult Ron having > some spell backfire on him and Hermione rolling her eyes and > fixing it up for him. I envision their adult relationship as being exactly like that also. I did find a few instances in the book, specifically in chapter 14 where Hermaine says she is not going to let Ron copy from her homework anymore and she's rather cool toward both Ron and Harry because they go out to practice Quidditch instead. But she looks up at Ron and "her frostiness seemed to melt".. And a little while later after he gets that letter from Percy and tears it up, Hermione "was looking at Ron with an odd expression on her face" and she ends up helping both he and Harry. Definitely a R/Hr shipping chapter! Jacquie - really hoping for the R/Hr and H/G ships! From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 01:12:28 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:12:28 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77031 > Am I the only one who thought that Voldemort was planning to kill > both Harry and Neville. Maybe he just found Harry first. I guess > that's not very satisfying but it makes sense. I mean, if Voldemort > was willing to kill one baby to protect himself, why not two? It's > not like he didn't kill people all the time anyway. > > Of course he was after James and Lily. They were fighting him. > They weren't the only people he was after by any means. Didn't > Moody mention some witch that was killed by Voldemort personally? > bibphile No, I agree with you bibphile. Nobody including DD new which child it was until LV chose the boy and 'marked' him. That's why the Prophecy had a ? mark initially and then later had Harry Potter's name added. DD new two families were at risk but had to wait for LV to make his move first. Did both families know? I'd like to think they did and I'm sure they both went into hiding but they were also fighting a war and were severely out numbered and were being picked off slowly one by one, so I bet they were in hiding reluctantly and I'm sure they broke the rules as it must have been hard to watch their friends die and be unable to help. The question is did LV know there was a choice of two boys, and chose Harry first or did he just believe there was only one? He would certainly go for both babies if there was a chance it could be one or the other. I suppose it depends on his information. Who told LV about the first part of the Prophecy and who or what was his information source on the potential candidates? How much was LV influenced by those he relied on to supply him with information. The witch was Dorcus Meadows. A name we are going to hear again. She has to be very important to get LV's personal touch. Mandy From jennyemike3 at cox.net Thu Aug 14 01:23:58 2003 From: jennyemike3 at cox.net (klra2ra) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:23:58 -0000 Subject: Snape adopt Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77032 Goblet of Fire, Chapter 22p 392 US paperback edition: "...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them play games in class than adopt Harry." Any hidden meanings? I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but I thought I would run it past the "reading too much into things" experts :) and see if anyone thought this was one of those offhand remarks that might mean something in the future. klra2ra From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 01:25:06 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:25:06 -0000 Subject: Please explain Ron and Luna? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77033 I just don't see a 'ship' between Ron and Luna at all. I've even seen it mentioned that Luna has a hero worship of Ron?? Sorry don't see it. The couple of times I read Luna was staring at Ron what I saw in that was that she, being the special girl that she is, sees some kind of aura around him she either can't explain or has seen before and is unsure of. I got the distinct impression she can see into people's souls and perhaps their future. Luna is a seer and she see's something in Ron's future. Luna and Harry...that's another story. Definatly a strong connection. Mandy, ducking in anticipation of a slew of Howlers from Luna/Ron ship fans. From rshuson80 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:26:15 2003 From: rshuson80 at yahoo.com (oh have faith) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:26:15 -0000 Subject: Snape adopt Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77034 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klra2ra" wrote: > Goblet of Fire, Chapter 22p 392 US paperback edition: > > "...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them play games in class > than adopt Harry." > > Any hidden meanings? I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but I > thought I would run it past the "reading too much into things" > experts :) and see if anyone thought this was one of those offhand > remarks that might mean something in the future. > > klra2ra I say: Well, if Snape starts letting them play games in class in Book 6, I'd say we could put money on it! Faith's Girl From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:27:50 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:27:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77035 Severusbook:"know yet, a piece of infomation crucial to his picking the Potters over the Longbottoms. If LV had killed Neville, would he have then seeked out Harry? And if Harry had not been attacked, would he still be as strong and gifted as he is today?" Wanda:" One of them is a mysterious sentence in CoS, when Harry is looking at Tom Riddle's diary. "And while Harry was sure he had never heard the name T.M. Riddle before, it still seemed to mean something to him, almost as though Riddle was a friend he'd had when he was very small, and had half-forgotten. But this was absurd." Don't forget that part of Tom Riddle, d/b/a Lord Voldemort, is now part of Harry. The bond exists already - and perhaps a shadow of memory as well. Remember that the Tom Riddle Harry sees in the chamber is a memory, a shadow, a virtual Tom Riddle, looking to become real. After Riddle detached/copied himself, he likely couldn't communicate between the real and the virtual Riddle. Perhaps. I always prefer the simplest explanation to anything. If Voldemort had succeeded in killing baby Harry, kept his body and his powers, he wouldn't have considered his night's work done without visiting the Longbottom household and taking care of business there. It's the King Herod, kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out system, but right up Voldemort's alley. OTOH, he waited until the Potters were betrayed before making his move. Why? There's possibilities: The Longbottom's Secret Keeper stayed loyal, or simply nobody knew where they were. Voldemort wanted to kill both boys the same night, lest the survivor's parents take even more extraordinary measures. Tactical surprise, IOW. Voldemort does in fact know that he will encounter Harry again, or perhaps the Potters were better Dark fighters and he feared Harry's bloodline in light of the prophecy. I believe Harry had a good shot at being a way above average wizard anyway. His parents were Head Boy and Girl, good at everything they did. Harry had good bloodlines. No guarantee, but look at Bobby Bonds's son Barry. Sometimes it works out. Jim F. From jennyemike3 at cox.net Thu Aug 14 01:30:21 2003 From: jennyemike3 at cox.net (klra2ra) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:30:21 -0000 Subject: Dragons, Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: <11d.251687cd.2c6c2c80@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- > and finish him off OMG, so this has been swimming around in my brain for about a week and this post clicked something. This is sheer speculation, completely raw data, and I have no conclusion, but I was hoping someone here could help me make sense of it all. Lily's eyes are green. Harry has her eyes. This is a big deal over and over again. Evans is a Welsh name. The quintessential Welsh name from what I understand. (There is a series of mysteries set in rural Wales who's protagonist is named Evan Evans and people often joke about how truly Welsh he is.) A very common dragon is the Welsh green. The eyes are a dragon's weakest point. Discuss. klra2ra From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 01:32:18 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:32:18 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77037 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunachapter10" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ecaplan_52556" wrote: > > If anyone is having any trouble seeing how a Ron and Hermoine > > relationSHIP would play out, just take a look at Mr. and Mrs. > > Weasley. I can just see in my mind's eye an adult Ron having > > some spell backfire on him and Hermione rolling her eyes and > > fixing it up for him. > > I envision their adult relationship as being exactly like that also. > I did find a few instances in the book, specifically in chapter 14 > where Hermaine says she is not going to let Ron copy from her homework > anymore and she's rather cool toward both Ron and Harry because they > go out to practice Quidditch instead. But she looks up at Ron and > "her frostiness seemed to melt".. And a little while later after he > gets that letter from Percy and tears it up, Hermione "was looking at > Ron with an odd expression on her face" and she ends up helping both > he and Harry. Definitely a R/Hr shipping chapter! > > Jacquie - really hoping for the R/Hr and H/G ships! No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to be Minister of Magic one day and Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice simple girl to love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. Weasley. Mandy - anticipating a H/R/H triangle that's going to end badly but all will be friends in the end. If they all survive. ;-) From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 01:35:58 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:35:58 -0000 Subject: Vampires In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > In SS/PS Quirell has garlic in his turban, now he wouldnt have been > able to stand being near him if he were a vampire, "K": That's possible. But if Snape is indeed taking a potion then maybe the effects of garlic wouldn't be so bad. Now I know Moldy Voldy probably does smell under that turban but the room still smelled of garlic and we know Quirrel had met some vampires in his life. SS pg 70 Professor Quirrell had to pick up a new book on vampires. pg 71 Hagrid says Quirrel met vampires in the Black Forest. pg 134 Quirrell's classroom smelled strongly of garlic, which everyone said was to ward off a vampire he'd met in Romania and was afraid would be coming back to get him one of these days. pg 134 The Weasley twins insisted Quirrell's turban was full of garlic to protect him wherever he went. SS/pg 226 Later in the book, Snape exits the castle as the sun sets, and meets with Quirrell. "You don't want me as your enemy, Quirrell," said Snape, taking a step toward him. "I-I don't know what you--- " "You know perfectly well what I mean." GoF/654 "Then...four years ago...A wizard --young, foolish, and gullible--wandered across my path in the forest I had made my home. Oh , he seemed the very chance I had been dreaming of...for he was a teacher at Dumbledore's school... This would be Quirrell of course and earlier we see where Quirrell has met up with vampires in a forest. Garrett: and when he is in > the pencieve his legs were exposed when he was fliped up side down. "K": As mentioned before, this was a technique that the DE's used in GoF. Could it also not be that James hung him upside down like a bat for a reason? That whole *because he exists* thing. Garrett: > And DD might have teacher who is bad once a month but he wouldnt > endanger all his students at monster night every night to a monster. "subrosax99" 76996 I think we can agree that the need to drink blood would be the bare minimum requirement for someone to be considered a vampire. How then, could DD justify taking Snape as a student, then hiring him as a teacher? Lupin was one thing, but protecting the students and staff from Snape would be a logistical nightmare. "K": Now this is interesting. Who would be a bigger threat? Lupin or Snape? A werewolf has been classified as a ~Known wizard killer/impossible to train or domesticate XXXXX~ in Fantastic Beasts. It is the most dangerous classification. FB also says the 'otherwise sane and normal wizard or Muggle afflicted transforms into a *murderous* beast. Almost uniquely among fantastic creatures, the werewolf actively seeks humans in preference to any other kind of prey.' I don't know if the vampire is any worse than that and Dumbledore was sure willing to allow Lupin in as a student and as a teacher. If Snape does have to have his share of blood, how do we know he isn't getting it? PoA (Bloomsbury) pg 34 Harry had never met a vampire, but he had seen pictures of them in his Defence Against the Dark Arts (DADA) classes, and Black, with his waxy white skin, looked just like one. Also, in OoP/106, in Black's house, there is an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, full of what Harry was quite sure was blood.~~~ I wonder if that really was blood in the stopper and who was it for? Garrett: > P.S. i would like to see you counter this "K": Aw, surely you can come up with some more stuff? I'm sure I can convince you one day :-D "severusbook4" 76995 "There will be no foolish waving or silly incantations in this class room." "K": Hmmm....that sounds more like the movie to me ;-) "subrosax99" 76996 The most you could say for his teeth is that they could use a good cleaning and possibly some tartar-control toothpaste. "K": Now,now...that was uncalled for . Not all vampires have fangs but I have this feeling Snape does. PoA Harry wouldn't have thought it possible that Snape's dislike for him could increase, but it certainly had done. *A muscle twitched unpleasantly at the corner of Snape's thin mouth* every time he looked at Harry, and he was constantly flexing his fingers, as though itching to *place them around Harry's throat*. Notice that muscle twitching at the corner of the mouth and the desire to place his fingers around Harry's throat? At least that is what Harry observed. "subrosax99" 76996 The half-vampire theory makes even less sense to me. How does that work? "K": Actually it might make even more sense. Just research Dhampirs. "subrosax99" 76996 I rather doubt JKR would make Snape a vampire for the simple reason that vampires have been done to death by that Rice woman. "K": Does that mean that no other author should ever write a book about vampires? "subrosax99" 76996 Not to mention all the back-tracking that would have to be done to explain everything. "K": Back-tracking? Not at all. She has left us all these hints since book one. "K" v-v From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 01:41:12 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:41:12 -0000 Subject: Dragons, Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77039 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- > > and finish him off > > OMG, so this has been swimming around in my brain for about a week > and this post clicked something. This is sheer speculation, > completely raw data, and I have no conclusion, but I was hoping > someone here could help me make sense of it all. > > Lily's eyes are green. Harry has her eyes. This is a big deal over > and over again. Evans is a Welsh name. The quintessential Welsh name > from what I understand. (There is a series of mysteries set in rural > Wales who's protagonist is named Evan Evans and people often joke > about how truly Welsh he is.) > > A very common dragon is the Welsh green. The eyes are a dragon's > weakest point. > Discuss. > klra2ra Wow you stopped me for a minute! You are absolutely right about the Dragon connection. The Dragon is the Welsh nation symbol. The Pen- Dragons, the ancient Welsh kings. Evens is the commonest Welsh name. Harry's eyes are his weakest physical point, I'm guessing. How does this link with Lily? Will she turn out to be his weak point as well as his greatest source of strength? Or perhaps LV will use her as Harry weak spot? I'm enthralled. Mandy From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:58:58 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vampire thread add-on In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814015858.31158.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77040 I''m not sure I buy the Snape-half-vampire theory, but here's another log for that fire. Remember when Snape assigns Lupin's DADA class the essay on werewolves? Clearly a shot at Lupin, and Herminone picks up on it. Later, we hear Lupin comment on the essay he assigned the class - the subject - vampires. Think this might have been a bit of quid pro quo to old Snivellus? owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 02:03:49 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 19:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814020349.88240.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77041 Sydney wrote: wrote: > I'm sure this question has been asked and answered a million times on this board, but could someone kindly explain the Snape/Vampire theory to me? Sydney said: Personally I can't stand the Vampire theory, but the evidence IS compelling. You can find it exhaustively discussed at Fantastic Posts here: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/snape.html#vampire . Most of it is mightly flimsy, but the Vampire Essay hints ARE very JKR. Lupin ushers Harry and Neville out of Snape's office saying he 'needs to talk to them about his vampire essay'-- only a couple of weeks after Snape assigned the werewolf essay. Vampires were not listed on the original curriculum. A bit later, Neville is dithering over the same vampire essay, when Snape suddenly appears in a mighty bad temper. Of course, Snape in a temper isn't evidence of anything! But it is hint-y in JKR kind of way. Then there's the oddly pointed mention in OoP, "Snape never eats here". For my part, I just find it aesthetically displeasing for Snape to be a vampire-- it's TOO MUCH GOTH. He's already nearly over the top as it is! If a vampire is introduced, I want it to be a fat, belching, lorry-driver. Also, sunlight, garlic, yadda yadda... the main point of vampires is that they're UNDEAD. They don't age or die. I'm not a vampire fan, but a mortal vampire isn't a vampire in my book, it's just someone who drinks blood. --------------- I knew I should not have answered that last post so quickly - just read this one and realized you'd already made the same point (better said, too!). I saw a program on people who considered themselves "vampires," and the modern term they gave themselves was "sanguinarians." Disturbing, but true. owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 02:35:59 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:35:59 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > Personally I can't stand the Vampire theory, but the evidence IS > compelling. You can find it exhaustively discussed at Fantastic Posts > here: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/snape.html#vampire . > > Most of it is mightly flimsy, but the Vampire Essay hints ARE very > JKR. Lupin ushers Harry and Neville out of Snape's office saying he > 'needs to talk to them about his vampire essay'-- only a couple of > weeks after Snape assigned the werewolf essay. Vampires were not > listed on the original curriculum. A bit later, Neville is dithering > over the same vampire essay, when Snape suddenly appears in a mighty > bad temper. Of course, Snape in a temper isn't evidence of anything! > But it is hint-y in JKR kind of way. Then there's the oddly pointed > mention in OoP, "Snape never eats here". > > For my part, I just find it aesthetically displeasing for Snape to be > a vampire-- it's TOO MUCH GOTH. He's already nearly over the top as > it is! If a vampire is introduced, I want it to be a fat, belching, > lorry-driver. > > Also, sunlight, garlic, yadda yadda... the main point of vampires is > that they're UNDEAD. They don't age or die. I'm not a vampire fan, > but a mortal vampire isn't a vampire in my book, it's just someone who > drinks blood. > > Sydney Exactly. How is Snape supposed to be in danger from LV if he is undead?!! Other than a well positioned stake through the heart, it's not as if he can be killed. Where then is the danger? If Snape was so hot for LV in the beginning, why didn't he just turn him into a vampire? That would have quickly dispensed with the whole eternal life problem. I agree also that Snape has more than enough going on without being a vampire to boot. Could some of this be movie contamination? The sight of Rickman dressed up like Ichabod Crane in a scuzzy Trent Reznor wig surely hasn't helped matters much. (Not that I'm complaining about Rickman, mind you.) Again, I agree; it's too much goth. Allyson From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 02:54:39 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:54:39 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > Exactly. How is Snape supposed to be in danger from LV if he is > undead?!! Other than a well positioned stake through the heart, it's > not as if he can be killed. Where then is the danger? "K": Vampires can be done away with. They can be killed. Stake through the heart, the head cut off, etc. >If Snape was so > hot for LV in the beginning, why didn't he just turn him into a > vampire? That would have quickly dispensed with the whole eternal > life problem. "K": Because Voldemort has vampiric qualities also. It was Voldemort who went on a quest for immortality and who seems to be familiar with vampires. He seems to be the main connection to those creatures. > > I agree also that Snape has more than enough going on without being a > vampire to boot. "K": Such as? Could not being a vampire be the root of most of his problems? I guess we could say the same for Hagrid and Lupin. >Could some of this be movie contamination? The sight > of Rickman dressed up like Ichabod Crane in a scuzzy Trent Reznor wig > surely hasn't helped matters much. (Not that I'm complaining about > Rickman, mind you.) Again, I agree; it's too much goth. "K": Not from me. I'm not a big fan of the movies as it is. The vampire theory has been around for a lot longer than any of the movies. "K" v-v From jendiangelo at cox.net Thu Aug 14 03:11:28 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:11:28 -0000 Subject: Snape adopt Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77044 klra2ra wrote: > Goblet of Fire, Chapter 22p 392 US paperback edition: > > "...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them play games in class > than adopt Harry." > > Any hidden meanings? I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but I > thought I would run it past the "reading too much into things" > experts :) and see if anyone thought this was one of those offhand > remarks that might mean something in the future. Me (AccioSirius Jen): I think if it had a been an off-hand remark of Ron's, then it could possibly come true! Although... that would make things VERY interesting! Jen From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 03:44:38 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:44:38 -0000 Subject: Viktor Krum (first random musing from newbie Occam) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" > wrote: > > This the first of a few random musings and questions from a newbie, > > inspired by reading some of the messages and my third reading of > OoP. > > I'll be sending a few messages with different subjects to keep the > > threads neat -- will I get an O or extra credit from my list elf > > (greetings Merry Elf!!)? > > > > VIKTOR KRUM > > > > What's the buzz out there on Viktor? I think he's got all the > makings > > of an important character and I'd be interested in others' opinion. > > > > Hermione still corresponds with Viktor because she likes him and > > because it fits in with her strong social consciousness -- > > corresponding with Viktor promotes the aim fostering friendship > > between schools and nations, maintaining a united front against LV. > > She might even see this correspondence as her duty, apart from any > > personal attraction to Viktor. She certainly threw her heart and > soul > > into SPEW and the defense of Buckbeak, and was keen to remind H and > R > > throughout GoF, particularly more towards the beginning, that the > > Triwizard Cup was meant to encourage fellowship between the > wizarding > > schools. I do not agree that she could be saying anything that even > > indirectly deals with OoP or the fight generally against LV, too > > stupid for Hermione, too dangerous. (I admit the possibility of > > Dumbledore perhaps giving her some kind of charm to protect the > > correspondence, but then I'm at a loss as to why Dumbledore would > > facilitate OoP-type activity by someone who is not of age.) > > > > The most interesting things about Viktor are 1) he's out of school > > and of age, and 2) he's always seemed ashamed of the dark side of > > Durmstrang and certainly mortified by the unmasking of Karkaroff's > > true nature, 3) even though he's a WW-famous Quidditch player, he's > > always slouching around and seeming gloomy -- in this respect, he > > reminds me of athletes of the former Soviet-bloc era, who were > > identified young and vigorously groomed for the glory of the state, > > not necessarily their own happiness, and 4) he's shown exceptional > > good taste as well as unguessed-at depths by falling for Hermione -- > > > who'd have picked a slouchy jock to be the first one to ask > Hermione > > out on a date? > > > > Viktor seems to be a very well-developed and sympathetic character > > for someone who's not seen that much page time yet, and I hope we > see > > more of him in the last books. It would be a waste of a potentially > > heroic (maybe tragic, like Cedric) character if we don't. I'd be > > surprised if the only thing he did when he got out of Durmstrang > was > > to continue as the Bulgarian seeker. > > > > -- call me Occam > > I am thrilled that you brought this up! I was just thinking about > this the other day after doing a re-read of GoF. I thought the > romance between Viktor and Hermione was absolutely charming! I would > love to see more of him in the next books, and I don't mind saying > that I would rather see Hermione with Viktor than with Ron. He seems > much more complex and interesting to me. It would be a waste of a > great character if he doesn't show up again. > > Allyson I agree with everything you said Occam about Viktor & Hermione's relationship but It does seem like more of a 'duty calls' thing than a boyfriend&girlfriend relationship. Hermione was flattered that Krum liked her so much, but didn't seem to feel the same way about him- She seemed more interested in talking about their schools and life where he is and... well, I just dont think she's the type of girl who would fall for a guy who can't even say her name properly. I also wondered about Krum's role in the last 2 books - but I had a less heroic view of what his role might be. Their correspondence may very well be a good thing that helps defeat LordV but my thoughts lean towards a more dangerous outcome (don't know why, maybe I'm just a pessimist). I (like ron, ok maybe not like ron) didn't trust Krum. I see the potential for good, in that he doesn't support the dark arts that his school promotes, but he also seemed a little singleminded and pushy. Maybe he just brought back bad memories of a few stalkers I've had in my youth, but I just didn't see him as such a good guy. He seemed more like a Mad-Eye Moody character - just when you think he's cool you realize he had it in for ya' all along. Am I the only one? If so I'll just go deal with my issues ; ) -QoE From subrosax at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 03:45:55 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:45:55 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77046 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "koinonia02" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > > > Exactly. How is Snape supposed to be in danger from LV if he is > > undead?!! Other than a well positioned stake through the heart, > it's > > not as if he can be killed. Where then is the danger? > > "K": > Vampires can be done away with. They can be killed. Stake through the > heart, the head cut off, etc. Me: I thought that's what I just said. Driving a stake through Snape's heart would be quite a bit more involved than a simple Avada Kedavra. (By the way, does anyone else think Avada Kedavra sounds like a hair care product?) > >If Snape was so > > hot for LV in the beginning, why didn't he just turn him into a > > vampire? That would have quickly dispensed with the whole eternal > > life problem. > > "K": > Because Voldemort has vampiric qualities also. It was Voldemort who > went on a quest for immortality and who seems to be familiar with > vampires. He seems to be the main connection to those creatures. Me: Who cares if he has "vampiric qualities"? Why not just be a vampire and forget all that other mess? If VD were a vampire, he'd be immortal, end of story. > > I agree also that Snape has more than enough going on without being > a > > vampire to boot. > > "K": > Such as? Could not being a vampire be the root of most of his > problems? I guess we could say the same for Hagrid and Lupin. Me: We haven't seen a shred of evidence that Snape's problems are caused by his being a vampire. Hagrid and Lupin do seem to suffer from discrimination due to their "half-breed" status (though how this applies to Lupin I do not understand.)By contrast, Snape seems to get on well with Lucious Malfoy, who seems to be about as snobby as they come in the wizarding world. What we know about Snape from canon suggests far more mundane reasons for his problems. > >Could some of this be movie contamination? The sight > > of Rickman dressed up like Ichabod Crane in a scuzzy Trent Reznor > wig > > surely hasn't helped matters much. (Not that I'm complaining about > > Rickman, mind you.) Again, I agree; it's too much goth. > > "K": > Not from me. I'm not a big fan of the movies as it is. The vampire > theory has been around for a lot longer than any of the movies. Me: OK, but I still don't get where this vampire thing comes from. If Snape is in fact a vampire, he's pretty pathetic. No one in the books is even turning up with bite marks! Please, don't tell me he's living off chickens or something. That's just undignified. Allyson From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 04:20:50 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:20:50 -0000 Subject: SHIPs: Two "nots," no "shoulds" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" > wrote: > > My SHIP cents: I have only two "nots," no "shoulds": > > (snip) > > > Harry is not going to end up with Hermione. That would leave Ron > as > > the odd man out, which makes no sense given the development of > > everyone's characters and the importance (so far) of the stability > of > > the Trio to the structure of the series. I don't think Ron's > > character supports a "loner" status. Harry of course might be best > > off as a loner (and perhaps will end up that way), given the > > heartache and the danger that's followed him around, which is why > I'm > > agnostic on Hermione/Ron. Hermione/Ron would break up the three- > way > > friendship dynamic, but I definitely think that Harry's love for > them > > would not at all be diminished if Hermione & Ron ended up a > couple -- > > and vice versa. So I think we'd still have a stable Trio with > > Herminone/Ron, but not with Hermione/Harry. Well said, and I agree... mostly, that's why I don't see whatever may end up happening with Ron and Hermione as a relationship necessarily. This is not the most social bunch. I see mostly some more awkward moments, maybe a date or even a kiss (maybe with each other, maybe not), but their friendship will still come first. The relationship with Hermione & Ron, if they do have feelings for each other that are more than friendly , would take a longer time to develop than your average schoolage-boyfriend/girlfriend scenario - There is much more at stake (insert dramatic music here) they have been through too much together (musical crescendo) to risk it all on some silly fleating crush, so they will carefully examine their feelings... (cue violins) until they are truly ready to admit to each other how they really feel (music fades). Meanwhile, Harry would hardly notice. >J.K. Rowling will neeed to pair off a > few people simply for...bear with me here...believability factor. > The idea that not one of Harry's mates found a partner (because it > would be obvious, wouldn't it, thats another interesting point) > is a little unbelivable though not totally so. So I expect a few > short-term casual pairings and maybe one long-term serious pairing > outside the main three. > > In the main three, a one-day thing with a kiss will be a serious > matter because they are the central character I... mostly... agree again, but Why not a long term pairing within the three, and by this I mean a few expository "where-are-they-now"-type lines in the last chapter. I can't see anyones school romance becoming a major focus while everyone's trying to defeat the most evil wizard who ever lived. -QoE From daluben4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:01:56 2003 From: daluben4 at yahoo.com (daluben4) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:01:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > > CW: This would be so Tolkein, I don't think she would want to be > accused of the similarity. In a previous post (74023)I suggested he > might lose all his powers and just go back to being a Muggle. Is there any evidence that Harry had *any* magical powers before he was attacked by LV? DD told Harry that LV gave Harry some of his powers when he gave him the scar. Could he perhaps have gotten *all* of his powers from LV? Seems unlikely, but not impossible. Daluben From kodiak6of9 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:29:51 2003 From: kodiak6of9 at yahoo.com (Michaela Ross) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 18:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape adopt Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814012951.59227.qmail@web42003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77049 klra2ra wrote:Goblet of Fire, Chapter 22p 392 US paperback edition: "...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them play games in class than adopt Harry." Any hidden meanings? I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but I thought I would run it past the "reading too much into things" experts :) and see if anyone thought this was one of those offhand remarks that might mean something in the future. ***** Snape hates Harry, or so it seems, and since he is the meanest teacher at Hogwarts wouldn't let them play games. That would be nice. Michaela -a newbie. From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 14 01:32:33 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:32:33 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly M." wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: he has been trying for > years to get > > people to call LV by his "proper name: Voldemort." Contrast > that with the battle in OoP when Dumbledore keeps calling him > "Tom." > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > > My 2 cents: > > Another possibility- calling him Tom could be considered an > insult? Instead of calling him Voldemort like I'm sure he'd like to > be called, Dumbledore is then talking down to him? Just a > thought... > > -Kelly I wonder if Dumbledore feels that since Voldemort has returned to his body that he is not the "most powerful" wizard he was before he attacked Harry as a baby. Plus Voldemort used Harry's blood to come back so he would (maybe) be more human than even Voldemort realises? The look of triumph in Dumbledore's eyes has me baffled. That is the only thing I can come up with is that it has made some major changes to Voldemorts physical being without Voldemort knowing it. Susan From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:36:13 2003 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:36:13 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77051 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracie" > wrote: >> > I'm kind of expecting to see a first year by the name of Mark > Evans being sorted at the beginning of the next book tho. Tracie > >OK Am new at this so will try it again. Hope the punctuation comes out ok. Who is Mark Evans and where does he come up in the book? sherry From rubykelly at webtv.net Thu Aug 14 01:40:22 2003 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:40:22 -0000 Subject: Re Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: <3F3ABFF2.000003.40899@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77052 Tj: > > Molly is a pet name for Mary. Yes that is a royal name as > well. (ha ha I think :D ) > > Just wanted 'ta share... I never noticed they all had royal names.. > But, I don't remember a good queen Virginia... am I missing > something.. > K - > > Well firstly there has been some debate about whether Ginny's name is > actually Virginia - could be Guenevere. But anyway Virginia (the state) is > named after Elizabeth I the Virgin queen. So Ginny's name could be described > as royal Ginny's name could also be Regina, Latin for "queen" and used by many English queens in their signatures. If anyone remebers the BBC series "Elizabeth R" (with Glenda Jackson playing the title role), the "R" stands for Regina; according to a biography I recently read about Victoria, she also signed "Victoria Rwgina". KAT/rxk From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 04:33:10 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:33:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77053 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunachapter10" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ecaplan_52556" > wrote: > > > If anyone is having any trouble seeing how a Ron and Hermoine > > > relationSHIP would play out, just take a look at Mr. and Mrs. > > > Weasley. I can just see in my mind's eye an adult Ron having > > > some spell backfire on him and Hermione rolling her eyes and > > > fixing it up for him. > > > > I envision their adult relationship as being exactly like that > also. > > I did find a few instances in the book, specifically in chapter 14 > > where Hermaine says she is not going to let Ron copy from her > homework > > anymore and she's rather cool toward both Ron and Harry because they > > go out to practice Quidditch instead. But she looks up at Ron and > > "her frostiness seemed to melt".. And a little while later after he > > gets that letter from Percy and tears it up, Hermione "was looking > at > > Ron with an odd expression on her face" and she ends up helping both > > he and Harry. Definitely a R/Hr shipping chapter! > > > > Jacquie - really hoping for the R/Hr and H/G ships! > > > No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to be Minister of Magic one day and > Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice simple girl to > love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. Weasley. > > Mandy - anticipating a H/R/H triangle that's going to end badly but > all will be friends in the end. If they all survive. ;-) Do you honeslty think Ron would care if Hermione was Miinister of Magic? Ron will be too busy starting a quidditch little league with his kids and 37 red headed nieces and nephews, and he doesn't need his wife Hermione at home nagging everyone about homework while they're trying to practice. -QoE -expecting a R/Hr Ship because the result is bound to be hilarious. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Wed Aug 13 08:35:43 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 04:35:43 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency References: <20030809162316.24090.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F39F85F.1050803@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77054 Buttercup wrote: > Perhaps this has been asked and answered before. If > so, I missed it. During the first Occlumency lesson, > why would Snape ask Harry "To whom did the dog > belong?" Why would he care? It wasn't anything > important that I can see. He asks about a dog, yet he > doesn't ask the more interesting question about the > sorting hat telling Harry he would do well in > Slytherin. You'd think that would interest him more. > Who cares about his Aunt Marge's dog? I don't get it. > Could this have been another clue? I think he asked that particular question precisely because it was uninteresting. He wanted to show Harry that he really could see his memories, so that Harry would take the lessons seriously. By asking such an innocuous and impersonal question he got his point across without needlessly angering or embarassing Harry. Since such consideration is unusual for Snape, it indicates to me that he also was taking the lessons very seriously. From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:42:23 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:42:23 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77055 > Mandy wrote : "No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to be Minister of Magic one day and > Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice simple girl to > love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. Weasley." I agree with you on that one. After all, Hermione, as you just said could well end up becoming the new minister of magic while Harry, at the same time, would become the new Dumbledore (after his killing by VD ?), following after him to the charge of Howart's director. Rowling may have stated that Harry was not to become a Hogwart teacher, but (to my knowledge) she didn't say that he couldn't be the school's director... Just a thought. Bye. AAm. From autumnskeye at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 01:52:12 2003 From: autumnskeye at yahoo.com (autumnskeye) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:52:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: <11d.251687cd.2c6c2c80@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > This question must have been asked before, but I missed the answer. > If the school's hospital has remedies to grow back bones, a plant to bring > Miss. Morris back and cures to make H's teeth grow shorter, how come they can't > improve eye sight? > Even DD wears glasses. > What is it about the eyes that they can't get 20/20 vision? > If I were LV, all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- > and finish him off ( unless Harry is like Luke Skywalker, who has the FORCE > with him and can zap attacks blindfolded). > Pook > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] My first post... Aren't Dumbledoor, Harry, Myrtle and Percy the only ones that wear glasses? I have always wondered why so few wear glasses. Autumn From rubykelly at webtv.net Thu Aug 14 02:43:34 2003 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 02:43:34 -0000 Subject: Flitwick-What Is he-and Which Side IS He On? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77058 This is something that's occurred to me recently, involving Professor Flitwick. We don't know exactly what he is-I've seen speculation as to him being par house-elf, a dwarf/midget...BUT: Inthe first movie, the scene where the one particular goblin at Gringott's takes Harry and Hagrid to Hary's vault, that goblin is Warwick Davis. (I recognized his voice.) THEN, when Harry get's to Hogwarts' and we see him in his various classes with different teachers, there's Warwick Davis again playing the part of Prof. Flitwick. Now, this seemed to be a bit strange to me, so I thought maybe I was mistaken about the goblin; upon reading the cast credits at the end of the movie I saw that I was, in fact, correct-that he did play both Flitwick and the goblin. Now, it's fairly well known that JKR saw to it that certain things were included in the films. So, why have the same actor play two parts, especially since one part seems like nothing more than a "bit" part? If Flitwick is part-goblin, it could explain both his obviously powerful magical skills as well as his small stature. In almost every book, there arew references to the "goblin rebellions", of which there have been more than one.(There also hasn't been much mention of which side the goblins took during the previous war with LV, or Grindlewold, etc. It was also pointed out that there may be some teacher recruiting for the Dark Side - that might mean recruiting for the side of a particular Dark Wizard, or just someone spotting likely candidates for the Dark Arts in general. We know the goblins have had some (unknown) greivances with the WW in general; recruiting students to the Dark Arts might be seen as a way to disrupt the wizarding world in general. Dumbledore warns in OOtP that the wizarding world is going to have to stop treating other magical beings and Muggles as inferior, or pay the consequences. So, if we have Severus Snape as the "obvious suspect" right from book 1 (Quirrel's words), Flitwick seems to me to be one of the top "un-obvious suspects"; and why have we never really heard the rebellions explained? KAT O'Klzmk/rxk From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 04:41:25 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:41:25 -0700 Subject: FILK - "I Feel Happy" Message-ID: <410-22003841444125178@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77059 "I Feel Happy" An OoP "Hogwarts Story" filk to "I Feel Pretty" from the movie "West Side Story." (Scene: DOLORES UMBRIDGE is in her office, celebrating her new position as Hogwarts Headmistress, along with DRACO, CRABBE, GOYLE & PANSY) DOLORES: I feel happy! Oh, so happy, Dumbledore's gone, and I've got his job! How I pity, That white-bearded dingbat of a slob. I feel cheerful, Yes, so cheerful, Hogwarts is now under my control! I'm headmistress, Complete subjugation is my goal. (DOLORES dances to the mirror and looks at herself, vamping) See the happy girl in that mirror there: Who can that new headmistress be? Such a happy face, Such a happy job, Such a happy school, Such a happy ME! I'm ecstatic, Yet pragmatic. Yes, my antics will soon reach new heights! I can torment young Harry morning 'till night! DRACO, CRABBE, GOYLE & PANSY: Have you met Headmistress Dolores? She's just taken over the school. You'll know her the minute you see her: She's the one who'll be making up all of the rules. She's in power now, She'll need no decrees. Whatever she wants, She'll do it with ease. The Gryffindors now Will all feel the pain. And points that they lose, Are Slytherins' gain! Keep away from her When her quill's out; She'll pull her inquisitor Skills out! Wicked and mean, And rather unkind. She's headmistress now, No longer maligned! DOLORES: I feel happy, Oh, so happy, I accept this postition with glee! I have proof now, Of Cornelius's love for me. I'm elated, How I've waited, To be joyful and blissful and blithe! For I'm sure to become the Minister's wife! See the happy girl in that mirror there: DRACO, CRABBE, GOYLE & PANSY: What mirror where? DELORES: Who can that new headmistress be? DRACO, CRABBE, GOYLE & PANSY: Which, what, where, whom? DOLORES: Such a happy face, Such a happy job, Such a happy school, Such a happy ME! DRACO: Such a happy me, CRABBE & GOYLE: Such a happy me, PANSY: Such a happy me! ALL: I'm elated, How I've waited, To be joyful and blissful and blithe! For I'm sure to become the Minister's wife! :-) Wendy St. John Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From carlpelleg at aol.com Thu Aug 14 03:32:30 2003 From: carlpelleg at aol.com (arcturusfelire) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:32:30 -0000 Subject: The Killing Curse Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77060 I have been a member of this group for a while now but I haven't had any questiones or any thoughts to add. Well now I do. My question is what is the underlying nature of the Killing Curse. Does it just kill, like if somebody was shot. I ask this because if it just kills a person then it could be used as a legal method for giving the death penalty or if you want to put somebody who is sick and will die anyway out of their missery. Or does getting hit by the Killing Curse do something else. Like send your soul to hell, destory your soul, banish it, or something else of that nature. Like being hit with the Curse stops the normal process when a person dies. If this is true then it would more than likely account for the reason its an Unforgivable. I would like to know because it seems that if it just kills a person than it could be used for legal/medical purposes. Thanks for taking the time and effort to read and answer my question. CarlPelleg. From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 14 03:36:29 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:36:29 -0000 Subject: Viktor Krum (first random musing from newbie Occam) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77061 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" > wrote: > > > > What's the buzz out there on Viktor? I think he's got all the > makings > > of an important character and I'd be interested in others' opinion. > > > > -- call me Occam > > I am thrilled that you brought this up! I was just thinking about > this the other day after doing a re-read of GoF. I thought the > romance between Viktor and Hermione was absolutely charming! I would > love to see more of him in the next books, and I don't mind saying > that I would rather see Hermione with Viktor than with Ron. He seems > much more complex and interesting to me. It would be a waste of a > great character if he doesn't show up again. > > Allyson Hi, I think that Harry, Hermoine and Ron have been living as brothers and sister for the past 5 years. I don't know about you but I know I tried to go out on a date with one of my best friends once. What a joke. We tried to kiss and burst out laughing. You can't kiss your brother or sister like that!! I think that Hermoine will end up having a relationship with Viktor (at least I sure hope so). Maybe Harry will end up with Ginny which would be cute. Ron will find someone but so far I haven't seen anyone that fits yet. All three of them are also very encouraging with each other (even tho Ron sputters on occasion) about who they like. Ron did not have too much trouble talking to Harry about what Hermoine sees in Viktor. Susan From mad_scientist459 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 03:58:59 2003 From: mad_scientist459 at hotmail.com (nosilla allison) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 03:58:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dragons, Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77062 > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > > all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- > > > and finish him off > > > > OMG, so this has been swimming around in my brain for about a week > > and this post clicked something. This is sheer speculation, > > completely raw data, and I have no conclusion, but I was hoping > > someone here could help me make sense of it all. > > > > Lily's eyes are green. Harry has her eyes. This is a big deal over > > and over again. Evans is a Welsh name. The quintessential Welsh >name > > from what I understand. (There is a series of mysteries set in >rural > > Wales who's protagonist is named Evan Evans and people often joke > > about how truly Welsh he is.) > > > > A very common dragon is the Welsh green. The eyes are a dragon's > > weakest point. > > Discuss. > > klra2ra > >Wow you stopped me for a minute! You are absolutely right about the >Dragon connection. The Dragon is the Welsh nation symbol. The Pen- >Dragons, the ancient Welsh kings. Evens is the commonest Welsh name. >Harry's eyes are his weakest physical point, I'm guessing. >How does this link with Lily? Will she turn out to be his weak point >as well as his greatest source of strength? Or perhaps LV will use >her as Harry weak spot? >I'm enthralled. >Mandy Do you guys remember that in the 5th bk. Harry see's through the eye of the snake! LV has already used Harry's weakness! and Jk hinted that Harry will get a new pet well she said the he will could be a dragon?and he said that dragons are not that bad in bk.4 so that could count as a hint From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 14 04:00:17 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:00:17 -0000 Subject: Molly and Hermoine Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77063 >From reading the posts- mostly the SHIP posts- I see a lot of people refer to Molly as simple. I think there is a whole lot more to Molly than we think. The way that Dumbledore allows Harry to stay at the Burrow under mainly her care (since Arthur goes to work) and the way Dumbledore speaks to her at the end of GOF I think that Molly is a much more powerful witch than she appears. She is doing guard duty just like all the others and she is basically running the Order Headquarters and I am not referring to just the cleaning of it. The other members of the Order have a lot of respect for her. I think in the books to come, we will see a very different Molly come out. I also think there is a huge side of Hermoine that we don't know about yet. She seems to be in close contact with Dumbledore and McGonnagal. There have been several times when she comes out with bits of conversations that she has had with them. I think she is a much bigger player than we think. I wish we could see things from her POV sometime. Of course, I would love to read Hogwarts a History also. : ) Susan From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 04:49:10 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:49:10 -0000 Subject: Please explain Ron and Luna? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I just don't see a 'ship' between Ron and Luna at all. I've even > seen it mentioned that Luna has a hero worship of Ron?? Sorry don't > see it. The couple of times I read Luna was staring at Ron what I > saw in that was that she, being the special girl that she is, sees > some kind of aura around him she either can't explain or has seen > before and is unsure of. I got the distinct impression she can see > into people's souls and perhaps their future. Luna is a seer and she > see's something in Ron's future. > > Luna and Harry...that's another story. Definatly a strong connection. > > Mandy, ducking in anticipation of a slew of Howlers from Luna/Ron > ship fans. I'm not a Luna/Ron Ship fan (though the idea does seem quite entertaining), but I definitely saw Luna acting a little like a giggley-school-girl-with-a-crush (a very awkward one, but still...) when it came to Ron (she actually giggled!). Didn't she make a ROARING LION'S HEAD hat to support the Gryffindor Quidditch team? And that is not even her house - and don't forget her humming "Weasley is our King" (I know it wasn't a pro-Ron song but I'm not sure if she caught on). She's wierd and I love her for that. She's the perfect stalker for Ron - Why should Hermione (Krum), and Harry (Ginny?) have all the stalker fun? -QoE From l10r77 at juno.com Thu Aug 14 04:52:54 2003 From: l10r77 at juno.com (Lisa) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:52:54 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: Other Children's Lit (Re: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind!) Message-ID: <3F3B15A6.000006.39807@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 77065 From: "Jesta Hijinx" Let me recommend to the group Lloyd Alexander's "Chronicles of Prydain" and Susan Cooper's "The Dark Is Rising" series for starters. JH Me: I read "The Dark is Rising" series years ago and loved it! In fact, as I'm sorting through everything getting ready to move, I've found the books and am reading them again. I definitely recommend them as well. Lisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From greatraven at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 04:30:48 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:30:48 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Has anyone out there read Robert Tressell's great book The Ragged > Trousered Philanthropists? The attitude of the house elves is > precisely that of the working-class characters the hero, Frank Owen, > is trying to help. I confess I haven't read the book, though I've heard of it, sorry! However, it would be interesting to see where this goes. Although the characters all poke fun at Hermione for SPEW and her attitude, by OoP, it's made a *lot* clearer that the wizards have *not* been treating their fellow magical beings fairly. Dumbledore actually says so somewhere - sorry, don't have my book with me, my sister is still reading it but the comment on that ridiculous statue in the Ministry is that theonly accurate part of it is the adoration of the house-elves. One reviewer I know comments that Dobby needs a militant union, although he is the closest thing the elves *have* to a militant unionist. Let's hope there are more of them in the last two books and that this matter is resolved. I suspect it will be. JKR doesn't write in important issues for nothing. From rubykelly at webtv.net Thu Aug 14 04:35:15 2003 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:35:15 -0000 Subject: Dragons, Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77067 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > > all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- > > > and finish him off > > > > OMG, so this has been swimming around in my brain for about a week > > and this post clicked something. This is sheer speculation, > > completely raw data, and I have no conclusion, but I was hoping > > someone here could help me make sense of it all. > > > > Lily's eyes are green. Harry has her eyes. This is a big deal over > > and over again. Evans is a Welsh name. The quintessential Welsh > name > > from what I understand. (There is a series of mysteries set in > rural > > Wales who's protagonist is named Evan Evans and people often joke > > about how truly Welsh he is.) > > > > A very common dragon is the Welsh green. The eyes are a dragon's > > weakest point. > > Discuss. > > klra2ra > > Wow you stopped me for a minute! You are absolutely right about the > Dragon connection. The Dragon is the Welsh nation symbol. The Pen- > Dragons, the ancient Welsh kings. Evens is the commonest Welsh name. > Harry's eyes are his weakest physical point, I'm guessing. > How does this link with Lily? Will she turn out to be his weak point > as well as his greatest source of strength? Or perhaps LV will use > her as Harry weak spot? > I'm enthralled. > Mandy Or will it be a clue that Harry, through lily, is related to Salazar Slytherin through Slytherin's Muggle side? Dragons were also called the "Great Wyrm" in ancient times, and were often portrayed as serpents, or serpent-bodied. (The Kraken seamonster/sea-serpent that Persues saved the maiden Andromeda is a good example). Perhaps it isn't Harry's physical vision that is his weak point, but rather his (as yet) inability to look at things/people/events surrounding him in a less subjective way, since one of the signs of maturity is trying to at least make an effort to be objective. This has been one of his main weaknesses so far, and we saw it truly displayed in the OOtP where Voldemort uses his lack of judgement to lead Harry to blindly follow his own will despite warnings from those around him....to the point where he refuses to even attempt to subjugate his emotions despite knowing/experiencing clear signs of the connection Voldemort has made. Also, if it is possible that Lily was related to Slytherin Muggle-wise, maybe the mark left on Harry isn't a scar that's shaped like s lightening-bolt, but one shaped like an "S". Kat O'Klzmk/rxk From rubykelly at webtv.net Thu Aug 14 04:47:45 2003 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:47:45 -0000 Subject: Re Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rubyxkelly" wrote: > Tj: > > > > Molly is a pet name for Mary. Yes that is a royal name as > > well. (ha ha I think :D ) > > > > Just wanted 'ta share... I never noticed they all had royal names.. > > But, I don't remember a good queen Virginia... am I missing > > something.. > > > K - > > > > Well firstly there has been some debate about whether Ginny's name is > > actually Virginia - could be Guenevere. But anyway Virginia (the state) is > > named after Elizabeth I the Virgin queen. So Ginny's name could be described > > as royal > > > Ginny's name could also be Regina, Latin for "queen" and used by many English queens in their signatures. If anyone remebers the BBC series "Elizabeth R" (with Glenda Jackson playing the title role), the "R" stands for Regina; according to a biography I recently read about Victoria, she also signed "Victoria Rwgina". > > KAT/rxk Arrgh, and it's just now occurred to me the another royal name that might have Ginny as a nick-name for is Eugenie, the name of Napoleon's 2nd wife and, if memory serves, the name of one of the daughters of the present Duke of York. katoklzmk/rxk From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 04:58:28 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:58:28 -0700 Subject: FILK - "Dark Mark Still Burns" Message-ID: <410-22003841445828710@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77069 "Dark Mark Still Burns" An OoP "Hogwarts Story" filk to "One Hand, One Heart" from the stage production of "West Side Story." Dedicated to Talisman (you wanted more Snape, you got it!), and to SnapeFilk Maven Gail B., (for loving our darling Potions Master *almost* as much as I do) ;-) (Scene: SNAPE is alone in his office, standing in front of the Pensieve. He raises his wand to his head, and removes one shimmering strand of memory and places it into the Pensieve, and then another. He taps his wand on the surface of the Pensieve, and watches the liquid swirl. A scene emerges - teenaged Severus standing in front of Voldemort. The liquid swirls again, revealing a somewhat older Severus, sitting across from Album Dumbledore. Another swirl, and Teenage!Snape appears again). TEENAGE!SNAPE (spoken, from the Pensieve): I, Severus Snape, pledge my loyalty to the Dark Lord. (The liquid in the Pensive swirls again) YOUNGADULT!SNAPE (spoken, from the Pensieve): I, Severus Snape, pledge my loyalty to you, Albus, against the Dark Lord. (Swirl) TEENAGE!SNAPE: To promote the purity of Wizard blood. (Swirl) YOUNGADULT!SNAPE: To stop the spread of evil. (Swirl) TEENAGE!SNAPE: To avenge the wrongs I suffered at the hands of others. (Swirl) YOUNGADULT!SNAPE: To redress the wrongs I have done to others. (Swirl) TEENAGE!SNAPE: Today, and always. (Swirl) YOUNGADULT!SNAPE: Now and forever. (Swirl) TEENAGE!SNAPE: With this Dark Mark, I thee pledge. (Swirl) YOUNGADULT!SNAPE: Against this Dark Mark I am pledged. (The liquid swirls again, then grows cloudy. SNAPE turns from the Pensieve) SNAPE (sung): Mark on my arm, Dark Mark. I swore to serve, Dark Lord. Then Dumbledore, I fought for. Who shall be my master now? TEENAGE!SNAPE (from Penseive): So many years, hiding. YOUNGADULT!SNAPE (from Pensieve): Paid for my sins, hiding. SNAPE: Now they return, my past haunts me now, Haunts me. And both sides, they want me now. (Interlude of music and solo ballet by SNAPE) Knew this would come, someday. I'd have to choose, one way. Dark Mark still burns, I will fight it now, Fight now. Even if it kills me now. :-) Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 05:01:38 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:01:38 -0000 Subject: So Happy to Have a Witch... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77070 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tracie" > > wrote: > >> > I'm kind of expecting to see a first year by the name of Mark > > Evans being sorted at the beginning of the next book tho. > Tracie > > > > >OK Am new at this so will try it again. Hope the punctuation comes > out ok. Who is Mark Evans and where does he come up in the book? > sherry OOP, US, p 13: "So who've you been beating up tonight?" Harry asked, his grin fading. "Another ten-year-old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago-" KathyK From l10r77 at juno.com Thu Aug 14 05:03:28 2003 From: l10r77 at juno.com (Lisa) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 01:03:28 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) Subject: But what if?? (was Re: Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from?) Message-ID: <3F3B1820.00000B.39807@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 77071 I am completely not in the "Snape is a Vampire" camp. But if he could brew a potion for Lupin to allow his werewolf tendencies to subside, who's to say Snape hasn't brewed himself a "Stay-Normal (or semi-normal, lol)-so-as-not-to-turn-into-a-Vampire" potion. You know, one that would allow him to live amongst the living, be out during the day, etc.? Lisa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 05:25:12 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 21:25:12 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Please explain Ron and Luna? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030813212014.00a66b80@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 77072 At 04:49 AM 8/14/2003 +0000, queenofeverythang wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > I just don't see a 'ship' between Ron and Luna at all. I've even > > seen it mentioned that Luna has a hero worship of Ron?? > >I'm not a Luna/Ron Ship fan (though the idea does seem quite >entertaining), but I definitely saw Luna acting a little like a >giggley-school-girl-with-a-crush (a very awkward one, but still...) >when it came to Ron (she actually giggled!). Didn't she make a >ROARING LION'S HEAD hat to support the Gryffindor Quidditch >team? And that is not even her house - and don't forget her >humming "Weasley is our King" (I know it wasn't a pro-Ron song >but I'm not sure if she caught on). I always had the feeling that she was humming "Weasley Is Our King" as she invented new words. I have no canonical evidence for my assertion, but I believe she wrote the revised words to WIOK that were sung after they won the last game. Luna is head over heals in "like" with Ron. But alas, I believe it will be a great big happy Weasely family in the end.... From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 05:41:01 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:41:01 -0000 Subject: FILK- Hermione Can! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77073 This is my very first attempt at one. I read so many great FILKs & it seemed like such fun - so I had to jump on the band wagon (get it? BAND wagon. work with me people, it's late) You may have created a monster (insert evil laughter here) Sung to the tune of "Candy Man" from Willy Wonka and The Chocolate Factory - a simple tune that still brings joy to my heart Hit It ! "Hermione Can!" Who can hear a question - Answer it with glee Learn about a spell and then perform it perfectly Hermione! Hermione Can! Hermione can because she read it in a book and her memory 's good Who can learn her lessons - In 2 classes at once Then nag Ron and Harry cuz their homework isn't done Hermione! Hermione Can! Hermione can because her school work 's almost perfect and her grades are so good Hermione knows - most everything she knows from reading "Hogwarts a History" Finding her should be no mystery She's researching in the library Using 'muggle-logic' - and 'wizarding-finesse' who figures out the details when her friends can only guess Hermione! Hermione Can! Hermione can because she did some 'light reading' now it's all understood And it's all understood cuz Hermione's memory 's good. -QoE (dedicated to the power of Reading, and to people who can remember every detail in the books they read because I sure can't : ) From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Thu Aug 14 05:50:52 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:50:52 -0000 Subject: Snape adopt Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klra2ra" wrote: > Goblet of Fire, Chapter 22p 392 US paperback edition: > > "...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them play games in class > than adopt Harry." > > Any hidden meanings? I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but > I thought I would run it past the "reading too much into things" > experts :) and see if anyone thought this was one of those offhand > remarks that might mean something in the future. > > klra2ra It could be that Snape had the option of adopting Harry at one point. I'd file this under "Severus Snape = Perseus Evans". If Snape was a relative of Lily, however distant, it could be that his blood would also protect Harry, and that he may have refused to adopt Harry when Lily died, causing Harry to go to the Dursleys. All speculative, but it's fun imagining Harry's reaction to finding out that: a) He is related to Snape. b) If it wasn't for Snape, he wouldn't be living with the Dursleys. c) Growing up with Snape was a possibility at one point. You still have to assume a slightly tangled family tree with a 1st generation muggle or so on Lily's side to account for Snape's "mudblood" comment, though... --Arcum From elfundeb at aol.com Thu Aug 14 06:09:14 2003 From: elfundeb at aol.com (elfundeb2) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:09:14 -0000 Subject: More Jane Austen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Emma is undoubtedly Hermione - clever, charming but thinks she knows > everything and has a right to order other people's lives. Absolutely. Hermione becomes bolder with each success, but is blind to her failure with the house-elves. JKR has indicated both that Hermione is a bit of a caricature of herself and that Emma was one of her favorite novels. Indeed, "[t]he real evils of [Hermione's] situation were the power of having rather too much her own way, and a disposition to think a little too well of herself." (Emma, ch. 1.) > Mr. Knightley, the only person who dares to criticise Emma in any > way - could be Snape, possibly Ron. Snape, IIRC, generally reserves his criticisms for Harry and Neville. He has on occasion told Hermione to shut up, but does not ever directly criticize her. Therefore, I agree with the second choice: Ron is Knightley to Hermione's Emma, as he alone continues to challenge her on the house-elf issue, and I can't think of anyone else who really argues with her on other issues, either. Ron also plays the role of knight to Harry, as well as when he pulls out his wand every time Draco insults her. And he was also the knight in the chess game. There is another Knightley. Lily takes on that role in Snape's worst memory when she defends him against James' taunts. And under this theory, James becomes Emma, except with one difference: James knew full well how he was treating Snape and did it for effect. Emma, OTOH, blithely believed that Miss Bates did not understand. > Miss Bates, muddle-headed gossip - who else but Bertha Jorkins. Or, under the Lily-as-Knightley theory, it is Snape who plays Miss Bates. Neither is pleasant company, but both feel the pain of an insult intensely. I allow, however, that Miss Bates is a bit more gracious than Snape is. But that's because these parallels are not meant to be exact. I think JKR drew extensively from Austen in characterization, in certain scenes, and in threading the mystery elements into a plot. But the plotlines are very different and the parallels, like generational parallels, are only echoes that bounce off several characters at once. > Can't find parallels for Jane Fairfax or Mr. Woodhouse (my own > darling favourite character). Anyone help? The parallel for Jane Fairfax is clearly Lupin, IMO. They are alike in both personality and position. Both are very reserved, and their reticence allows them to hide their secrets. In addition, neither gets the respect that others do, Jane for her poverty and the fact that it will require her to take a demeaning job and Lupin for his lycanthropy that leads to his unemployability and consequent poverty. In both cases, however, their inner pain is evident, even though we don't see either one frequently and never from their point of view. Mr. Woodhouse's resistance to change and the unknown bears not a small resemblence to the Dursleys' mania with normality. Though I wouldn't regard the Dursleys as sweetly eccentric, he stifles Emma in his own way, so that instead of living her own life she directs others' as if it was a dramatic performance. Debbie now preparing the argument that Hermione and Ron are Elinor's Sense and Marianne's Sensibility in their relationship to Harry From rubykelly at webtv.net Thu Aug 14 05:16:09 2003 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 05:16:09 -0000 Subject: Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency In-Reply-To: <3F39F85F.1050803@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > Buttercup wrote: > > Perhaps this has been asked and answered before. If > > so, I missed it. During the first Occlumency lesson, > > why would Snape ask Harry "To whom did the dog > > belong?" Why would he care? It wasn't anything > > important that I can see. He asks about a dog, yet he > > doesn't ask the more interesting question about the > > sorting hat telling Harry he would do well in > > Slytherin. You'd think that would interest him more. > > Who cares about his Aunt Marge's dog? I don't get it. > > Could this have been another clue? > > I think he asked that particular question precisely because it was > uninteresting. He wanted to show Harry that he really could see his > memories, so that Harry would take the lessons seriously. By asking > such an innocuous and impersonal question he got his point across > without needlessly angering or embarassing Harry. Since such > consideration is unusual for Snape, it indicates to me that he also was > taking the lessons very seriously. I must say I completely disagree. I think the reason that question was asked was because Snape was startled, startled enough to actually ask a personal question (not something he's exactly known for). Seeing Harry experiencing being the brunt of cruelty at the hands of those whose were raising him and in whose care he was in seems very likely to have been the first time he saw what the reality of Harry's life at Privet Drive has been. Up until then, Snape-along with most of the magical community-would have assumed that "The Boy Who Lived" was in the care of some doting relatives. Seeing that Harry was not only not with a family who spoiled or indulged him (as seems likely with James) was probably the first time it ever crossed Snape's conciousness that the spoiled brat who caused him so much misery at school was quite different from the orphaned child left behind. It likely showed him that although Harry may look like his father, and share some of his personality traits, Harry has suffered some of the very kinds of things Snape did. Then just as this realization is starting to sink in a bit, Snape puts a little trust in Harry-who immediatly violates it. I think much of Snape's anger over the incident was directed as much at himself as Harry, for being so "foolish" to trust James' son. I also think that the memorymight have been one that Dumbledore requested Snape put away, not wanting Harry to deal with the shock of seeing his father in a more realistic light on top of everything else the boy was dealing with. (Amistake, perhaps, but an understandable one.) Snape would have been furious that Harry had seen something the Headmaster had wished to keep secret-after all, from what we know about Snape I think he personally would have been more than happy to let Harry see the kind of schoolmates he'd had in James and Sirius. KAT/rxk From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 07:57:14 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 00:57:14 -0700 Subject: Vampire!Snape Message-ID: <410-22003841475714182@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77077 I wasn't planning on responding to this thread this time around, but someone e-mailed me privately and asked for my take on the subject. In the course of writing my response to her, I decided that some of my thoughts are probably post-worthy, and since I'd already written the thing, I might as well spruce it up a bit and post it to the list. Some of my points have already been made admirably by K in another thread, I think she and I are on pretty much the same page. But I'm also saying some things that I haven't seen mentioned anywhere in this particular round of the discussion. So, onward! Okay. My take on Vampire!Snape. My answer to this is in two parts. I don't think it's a bunch of hooey, but I'm also not certain that Snape will prove to be a vampire in canon. I feel certain that JKR put in the clues deliberately, but whether she meant them as clues or as red herrings, it's difficult to say. There is just too much vampire imagery surrounding Snape for it to be our imaginations. Oops. I slipped there, and I think that my use of the word "our" has probably given my position away. ;-) But bear with me, and you'll see why I'm personally in favour of it. I won't go through and detail all the evidence (that's been done admirably elsewhere), but IMO the big bit is the vampire essay that Lupin assigned, seemingly in "retaliation" for Snape's werewolf essay. There are plenty of smaller "clues" as well. Okay. So we've got clues. The question is this: JKR is obviously clever at putting in her clues. But just how clever? Is she trying to trick us, or trying to trick us into tricking us? (That makes no sense, does it?) I believe the vampire clues are intentional, which means that she either A) put them in so that when we learn he's a vampire, she can say, "look, it was there all along;" or B) she's put the clues in to trick us into thinking he's a vampire, so she can say, "Gotcha!" with something else when he turns out *not* to be. What's interesting to me is that there are people who have analysed pretty much every tiny detail of these books (anyone who has been following HP4GU for any length of time, for example), and I don't think JKR ever expected that to happen. She knows that it's happening now, and I do believe the popularity of these books may have affected the way she wrote in her clues in OoP, and possibly even in GoF. However, there were plenty of good vampire clues in PoA and PS/SS, and I'm not sure she was trying to be quite so sneaky way back when. Sneaky, yes. Knowing that every word she writes is going to be analysed 40,000 times, and trying to outsmart these obsessed readers? No. I don't believe that she's changing the fundamental content or storyline because of the popularity of the books, but I do think she's trying harder to be deceptive with her clues and red herrings now that she knows just how closely people are reading. Part of the fun (for her and for us) is the plot twists and surprises, and it's obvious from interviews that she doesn't want that to be spoiled. However, since this whole vampire thing appeared in the first book, I think it's possible that she intended for the revelation that Severus is a vampire to be a big bang later in the series, and she just never thought so many of us would pick up on it, and find it so obvious. Of course, I think there is also a good chance that it is a total red herring, and she would laugh herself silly to find out just how much discussion goes on about it. That's the first part of my answer. Obviously, we don't yet know for certain whether he's a vampire or not, but I think a good argument can be made either way. And I certainly don't think we can safely say that JKR has written this particular piece of her puzzle with the utmost deviousness, because I just don't believe she realised from the start just how devious she would need to be to outsmart us! :-) Now, for the second part of my answer, which is why I choose to read Snape as a vampire. Well, actually a half-vampire. The answer is: purely personal preference, and nothing particularly to do with the actual canon. I do think there is compelling canon for this. I also think it's equally valid when people say they aren't compelled by the canon. But I have always been fascinated with vampires, as long as I can remember. In general, I think they're sexy, and the idea of Snape (who is already Dead Sexy in my book) being a vampire just adds another layer of attraction to him for me. Bent? Maybe. But I'm not the only one! ;-) Why Half-Vampire? Because I like to think he was born that way, and was already vampiric as a Hogwarts' student. But in canon, we've seen him age, so he couldn't have been just a pure vampire, or his age would remain static (unless JKR decides to play with that, which could very well be the case - more on this in a bit). I actually have a rather specific backstory in my head for this: Snape's maternal grandmother was a pureblood "aristocrat" who'd fallen on hard times, and so basically "sold" her daughter (Snape's human mother) in marriage to Snape's vampire father. That's delving into fanfiction, obviously, and there's no canon to support it at all, although the canon we have about the abusive man and cowering woman doesn't contradict it, either (although the fact that Snape's family looks to have been poor would indicate that grandma made a poor choice if she was trying to boost the family fortunes. I think Snape Sr. may have had a nifty Addams Family style mansion, but no cash in Gringotts). Now, this next bit is the other major thing I want to say. As soon as the subject of Vampire!Snape comes up, there are tons of posts back and forth about "but he can go out in daylight," and "What about the garlic in Quirrell's turban," blah blah blah. Well, none of that matters. I think this bears repeating. None. Of. That. Matters. Any inconsistencies with what we *believe* to be "the truth about vampires" have *no relevance* here, because JKR can make her vampires exactly the way she wants them to be. (K also pointed this out in one of her posts). As long as they drink blood, pretty much anything else goes. Vampire myths are wide-spread throughout the world, and vary significantly in details from place to place. For example, many vampire myths *don't* include any reference to the vampire being unable to survive in sunlight. In fact *most* vampire myths don't make reference to this trait. Arguably the most famous vampire of all time, Stoker's "Dracula" was able to go around in daylight; he just had reduced supernatural powers. So, the fact that Snape refereed that Hufflepuff Quidditch game in daylight isn't a deal breaker. This also applies to questions of "what the heck is a half-vampire, anyway?" If JKR wants a half-vampire, she can write one. There is no one to stop her, and there is no one "true vampire myth" to which she must remain faithful, so any arguments that Snape doesn't follow existing vampire "conventions" just flat out have NO VALIDITY WHATSOEVER. None. Nada. Zip. Zlich. Additionally, JKR has given us precious little canon for what it means to be a vampire in the Potterverse, and none of what she has given us contradicts anything we know to be true about Snape. So, at this point there is simply no way to "prove" that Snape either is or is not a vampire. It just can't be done, not to my knowledge, anyhow. So how about we stop trying, eh? So, since I dig vampires in general, and the idea of a blood-sucking Severus in particular, I choose to believe that the vampire clues in the books are genuine. In fact, if, by the end of Book 7, JKR hasn't come out and specifically mentioned that Snape is *not* a vampire, I will forever believe him to be one, even if she never *confirms* this in the text. Someone who really doesn't like the idea of Vampire!Snape can easily take the opposite approach.There have been several people lately who've said they don't like Vampire!Snape because it makes the character "too Goth." I also remember arguments that Snape's snarkiness seems somehow diminished if we find out later that he's nasty because he's a vampire, and there are other arguments along these lines. Personally, I don't agree. HOWEVER, it's important for me to note that *these* are all valid counter-arguments: personal preferences for what it does to the storyline, or Snape's characterisation, or whatever. Some people like to read Snape as a vampire; others don't. That's cool. I think there's plenty of evidence in the text to support the theory, and plenty of reasons for its detractors to believe it's a red herring, and that for now it comes down *purely* to personal preference. I get annoyed with people who post, "Snape can't possibly be a vampire because blah blah blah." That's just not true. JKR can most certainly make Snape a vampire if that's what she wants to do. We don't yet know if she will, but there is absolutely nothing in the canon or anywhere else that rules it out conclusively. We just don't have enough information. So, to each his own, I say. I like to think of him that way. Those who don't are certainly entitled to think of him the other way. Both sides have equal validity at this point, because JKR hasn't come out and told us yet, one way or the other. Maybe she never will, in which case we'll each get to decide after the end how we prefer our Snape. :-) Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 07:58:28 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 07:58:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Reading Minds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > My guess is Harry rarely has a > moment of privacy unless he's bathing, which he never seems to do!! > > Ariadne Why is it that we have to have this thing about Harry's ablutions? How many books have you read in which you get sentences like (all imaginary by the way): "I'm off for a bath", said Bill, See you at tea". While Jim was changing his underpants, he was thinking over the problem of the third letter. Jean decided that the best way to think about her relationship with her aunt was to take a shower. Freda sat on the toilet seat reading the article on "Occlumency" and trying trying to make sense of it. :-)) Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 08:05:26 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:05:26 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > I certainly hadn't noticed that they are royal names (William, > Charles etc.)as the names are so common in England. Who exactly is > King Ronald.? Dont recollect him. Or King Percival either. There is > a Molly Queen of the Beggars in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld > books (Feet of Clay, I think). They don't necessarily have to be names of kings and queens. We've never had a King Albert in the UK, but it was the first name of Queen Elizabeth's father, who reigned as Goege VI. (It has been a royal name in Belgium admittedly). Percival (or more accurately Percivale) was a Knight of the Round Table (in Malory at least). Ronald, I must admit, leaves me in the dark for the moment. Perhaps someone can say "Lumos" for my benefit. The thought of Bill as Bilius leave me feeling slightly green [but not with envy :-)] Geoff From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Thu Aug 14 08:07:18 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:07:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: <11d.251687cd.2c6c2c80@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > This question must have been asked before, but I missed the answer. > If the school's hospital has remedies to grow back bones, a plant to bring > Miss. Morris back and cures to make H's teeth grow shorter, how come they can't > improve eye sight? > Even DD wears glasses. > What is it about the eyes that they can't get 20/20 vision? > If I were LV, all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- > and finish him off ( unless Harry is like Luke Skywalker, who has the FORCE > with him and can zap attacks blindfolded). > Pook It's strange though - Harry has Lily's eyes, but it's James who wears glasses. (Or is that just fan art/movie contamination?) Is there any significance to this? Something along the line of Lily's strengths, James' weaknesses? evangelina From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 08:24:58 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:24:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > > It's strange though - Harry has Lily's eyes, but it's James who wears glasses. (Or is > that just fan art/movie contamination?) Nope. PS p.153 "The Mirror of Erised": The tall, thin, black-haired man standing next to her put his arm around her. He wore glasses and his hair was very untidy. It stuch up at the back, just like Harry's did. POA p.311/2 "Owl Post Again": "Last night... I thought it was my dad who'd conjured my Patronus. I maean, when I saw myself across the lake... I though I was seeing him." "An easy mistake to make," said Dumbledore softly, "I expect you're tired of hearing it but you do look /extraordinarily/ like James. Except for your eyes.... you have your mother's eyes." Geoff From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 14 08:39:58 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:39:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Christian Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814083958.55949.qmail@web21501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77082 --- Geoff Bannister wrote: --------------------------------- "sylviablundell2001" wrote > I certainly hadn't noticed that they are royal names (William, > Charles etc.)as the names are so common in England. Who exactly is > King Ronald.? Dont recollect him. Ronald, I must admit, leaves me in the dark for the moment. Perhaps someone can say "Lumos" for my benefit. Hans in Holland: Ronald is a variation of Reginald, meaning "strong ruler". ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From valkyrievixen at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 08:40:56 2003 From: valkyrievixen at yahoo.com (M.Clifford) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:40:56 -0000 Subject: The Killing Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77083 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcturusfelire" wrote: > I have been a member of this group for a while now but I haven't had any questiones or any thoughts to add. Well now I do. > Hi Carl, I am Valky Carl wrote: > My question is what is the underlying nature of the Killing Curse. > > Does it just kill, like if somebody was shot. I ask this because if > it just kills a person then it could be used as a legal method for > giving the death penalty or if you want to put somebody who is sick > and will die anyway out of their misery. > > Or does getting hit by the Killing Curse do something else. Like send your soul to hell, destory your soul, banish it, or something else of that nature. Like being hit with the Curse stops the normal process when a person dies. If this is true then it would more than likely account for the reason its an Unforgivable. > I would like to know because it seems that if it just kills a person than it could be used for legal/medical purposes. > > Valky replies: I always relate the matter of killing to a story I was told about my Grandfather when I was younger. He was a sharp shooter by trade he performed it for entertainment and travelled the world with his wife and daughter (my mother) performing skill shots with rifles and bow and arrow. Being so skilled with a rifle he was also valuable to the English army during his years of service in the Second World war. He served as a sniper. He did this for a long time and one could imagine what kind of shooting he was required to do. He left service discharged honourably not long before the war ended. The story he brought back with him about killing people is harrowing. I was told that for him the most profound feeling that he had after sniping someone was the feeling of having taken something from them. If you take someone's possession from them you may feel some remorse and want to return it to them, he said the thing about taking a life is that you can't give it back. For my Grandfather it was a revelation of his authority and control in the world. It humbled him and he would say that is the realisation of the authority of man. Knowing this is how we know the difference between us and the divine and he said it made him realise that as a man he had no authority to give someone back life and so no authority to take one from anyone. For me the unforgivable nature of a killing curse is explained in this story. Hence and answer to any use of it as a death penalty for crime. But not an answer to your question about euthanasia. Not so sure about that one. From silmariel at telefonica.net Thu Aug 14 09:13:31 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:13:31 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: BANG! You're dead! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308141113.32091.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77084 CW: > I still think Harry could sneakily use the Internet from time to time > when at Privet Drive. I can't imagine either Voldie or DD > understanding what it does, so both could underestimate it as a > secret weapon... Golly: <> He could underestimate it, but if you are an Evil Overlord it's called not being professional. If you know he is the one prophetised to vanquish you, ejem, you should try to recollect the maximum amout of data about him. If Voldie doesn't know by now if Harry is left, ambidextrous or right-handed he is a suicidal. I don't see Voldie or DD understanding muggle tech, but I see Voldie veritasericing anyone working in the library to learn what he is doing. I can see him finding computer maintenace staff, and using Imperiod muggles to decipher who is writing to him and what. I mean, what kind of security has a library located near Privet Drive, from Voldie's PoV? If he were as dangerous and brilliant as we are supossed to believe, of course. silmariel From naama2486 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 09:48:05 2003 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (Naama) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:48:05 -0000 Subject: JKR and reusing names (was: Augustus) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77085 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susanbones2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "susannacedric" > > wrote: > > Did anyone else notice there were two characters (albeit both minor > > characters) named Augustus in OOP-Augustus Rookwood-DE and Augustus > > Pye-Trainee Healer. I didn't think JKR ever reused names. I can't > > think of any other characters that have the same first names. Am I > > forgetting some? Is there any significance to this, or am I just > > being overly analytical. > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arioth1" wrote: > > There are two named Tom aswell. Tom Riddle and the barman in the > > Leaky Cauldron. > > > > Me: > > > > Actually, the usual way in which she reuses names is by going the > > father/son route. We had two Tom Riddles, one a Muggle father and > > one an evil spawn of a son; we had two Barty Crouches, each one > more > > vile than the last, and Harry himself bears his father's first name > > as his middle name, as we finally have confirmed when he has his > > trial in OotP. Frankly, I'm surprised that we don't see more names > > reused in this manner in the HP books, but authors have a certain > > amount of control over their worlds to avoid this when it would be > > undesirable ****snip**** > Two more: > Nicholas Flamel and Sir Nicholas (Gryffendor ghost!) > Jennifer And here are some more: Ernie Macmillan and Ernie Prang (Knight Bus driver) Sturgis Podmore and Patrick Delaney (aka Properly Decapitated) Podmore Frank Bryce and Frank Longbottom Tyberius Ogden (I'm not sure I got her first name right- she's a friend of Professor Tofty) and Ogden's Old Firewhisky (well maybe that doesn't really count...) That's what I like about JKR's names - they *do* repeat themselves. It's practical. I mean what are the odds of having so many different characters and not having two Joes or something? --Naama From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Aug 14 09:53:11 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:53:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Has anyone out there read Robert Tressell's great book The Ragged > Trousered Philanthropists? The attitude of the house elves is > precisely that of the working-class characters the hero, Frank Owen, > is trying to help. Tressell calls them "philantropists" because they > are happy to give away the fruits of their labours to their "betters" > who are happy to exploit them. "House elves has no right to be > unhappy when there is work to be done and masters to be served" > forsooth!! Admitted Hermione goes about it in a rather ham-fisted > way, but I prefer her attitude to Ron's, who doesn't give a damn > about house-elves, so long as they get a decent breakfast on the > table at the right time. > P.S. An earlier poster thought the book was about the nobility of the > working class. It's nothing of the kind. Say rather sheer > breathtaking stupidity and poverty of ambition. The previous poster was me and I haven't taken any offence - I'm happy for anyone to interpret any book the way they want to, it adds to the fun. I first read it when I was 19 and idealistic; I read it again 35 years later and found it unbearably trite and contrived. Tastes change and so do critical standards. Tressell *was* a socialist activist and the book was intended to be a polemic against exploitation and for the innate stiff- upper-lip, bearing-up in difficult circumstances of the oppressed. It was intended to help increase Trade Union activism. (This is from a relative who talked to Tressell soon after it was published.) So far we've three Elves suffering from supposed ill-treatment (Dobby, yes; Winky, maybe, though Crouch was involved in a cover-up, and Winky was the fall-guy; and Kreacher who for whatever reason has been turned into a monster). Set against this are scores happily beavering away at Hogwarts and by implication, other establishments. Of the three Elves, two of them are unhappy (Winky and Kreacher), but only because they cannot do their duty as they see it. Maybe there are parallels, but I think it's stretching it a bit. Kneasy From naama2486 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 10:16:04 2003 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (Naama) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:16:04 -0000 Subject: Rookwood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77087 I was pretty annoyed by this, don't know if it's been discussed before (searched the archive and found nothing): In GoF, Pensieve scene, Karkaroff names AUGUSTUS Rookwood who passed LV information from within the Ministry. In OoP, the Daily Prophet announces the escape of ten DEs, among whom there is one ALGERNON Rookwood. I've checked and double-checked, and I can't see how they can be two different people- in GoF, when Karkaroff rats on Rookwood I remember Crouch Sr. saying: "Augustus Rookwood, from the Department of Mysteries?" and Karkaroff answering -"The very same". And the caption for Rookwood's picture in the Prophet says he betrayed Ministry secrets to LV. Besides, the fact that Karkaroff says "Rookwood" and Crouch automatically replies "Augustus Rookwood" implies, to me at least, that there was only one Rookwood in the Ministry of Magic at the time. Any thoughts? --Naama, the petty-details obssessed. What kind of a name is Algernon anyway?! :-\ From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Aug 14 10:32:38 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:32:38 +0100 Subject: Half Vampire? (was: Vampire!Snape) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77088 Wendy St. John wrote: Why Half-Vampire? Because I like to think he was born that way, and was already vampiric as a Hogwarts' student. But in canon, we've seen him age, so he couldn't have been just a pure vampire, or his age would remain static (unless JKR decides to play with that, which could very well be the case - more on this in a bit). I actually have a rather specific backstory in my head for this: Snape's maternal grandmother was a pureblood "aristocrat" who'd fallen on hard times, and so basically "sold" her daughter (Snape's human mother) in marriage to Snape's vampire father. Me now: This stirred my somewhat perverted imagination in a delicate direction. How does one ...umm...produce a half vampire? The ..ah.. mechanics of it intrigue me. Some safeguards must be in place otherwise you immediately end up with *two* vampires who eventually produce a vampire child. Obviously, an impervious neck guard would be useful. Maybe the afflicted mate has to visit the dentist for a total extraction before the ceremony. Of course, if you're into more exotic fun and games, various types of bondage might appeal. Entering a Honeymoon Suite heavily laden with garlic cloves, crucifixes, a coffin filled with earth and a wooden stake is original, to say the least. How is it done? I think we should be told. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 14 10:47:06 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:47:06 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dorcas Meadows: who was she? (was snape's love) References: Message-ID: <002401c36251$69f45880$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 77089 From: ghinghapuss <<<>>Another thought I had about Dorcas was the whole chapter she was mentioned in seemed very contrived. The whole business with Molly Weasely's Woes was devastating yes, but obvious, right? After all Molly is a mother and the death of her children is of course her greatest fear. After rereading the chapter again I began to think it was written to cover the revelation of some other piece of important information that JKR is feeding to us in preparation for later. The only new pieces of information were the introduction of the original members of the Order Mad Eye Moody showed Harry in the photo. And of that just about everyone else has a description of death, all except Dorcus. <> Mandy ------------------------------- I'll pay more attention when I get a chance to reread it, but I felt that Molly's fear of seeing her loved ones dead was more camouflage for who would eventually die, such as the attacks on Arthur and McGonagal. I have to admit, from various things I had a feeling JKR was going to kill a Weasley (although I couldn't see her crying over Percy). It may be that the reference to Dorcas is contrived, but another reason for her inclusion could simply have been to up the danger element in reference to members of the Order coming up against LV. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 11:57:38 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:57:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and how he knew about Ginny's possession Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77090 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelberri56" > > wrote: > > > I'm sorry if this has already been said, but: > > > > > > How did Dumbledore know that Voldemort had possesed Ginny, > > > at then end of CoS... when Harry stopped talking because he > > > didn't want to say that Ginny had done all the Petrifying? I'm > > pretty > > > sure it was because of Occlumency, but if someone else has an > > > idea, please tell me. > > > > > > Also, in PS/SS, when Hermione and Harry go up to the North > > > Tower to drop off Norbert, and then leave the invisibility cloak, > > > how did Dumbledore know where it was to return it to Harry's > > > bed? Remember, it had a note attached to it that said: "Just in > > > case." That was most likely Dumbledore who left it. How did he > > > know it was there? Did he just find it there by accident and then > > > return it to Harry? > > > > > > "angelberri56" > > > > Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry "closer than he > > realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. The best explanation to > how > > he knows so much is that he was there when the incidents happened. > I > > personally favor the idea that Dumbledore is (yet another) > > unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we see during Harry's > > transfiguration OWL. Doesn't anyone remember Dumbledore saying he didn't need the invisibilty cloak to be invisisble? He did say it after Ron and Harry had visited the mirror of Erised. I don't remember exactly where in SS. But he is able to move about the school invisibly. I think that is how he kept an eye on Harry. I also think that Dumbledore is quite the master of logic. Even though Harry didn't say Ginny was possessed, I am sure he realized the diary had some strong magic attached to it. Tom Riddle created the magic when he was only 16. Even though he was pretty powerful even then, I am sure Dumbledore was able to realize the power behind that particular item. Perhaps, he logically concluded that Ginny had been writing in it and knowing the kind of magic used and whose diary it was, he figured Ginny was possessed. The man may be a little mad, but he is brilliant. D From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 12:04:11 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:04:11 +0000 Subject: (FILK) A Rant About Trust Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77091 A Rant About Trust (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _A Matter Of Trust_ by Billy Joel) A Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Coffeehouse/9175/billyjoel.html Dedicated to "tcyhunt" Ron (to Hermione): This Snape, he is a horrible guy But now they tell us that this person is one of our spies I am finding this hard to believe I think Snape has got something up his sleeve You're saying I'm only being dumb If we can't trust Dumbledore than we can't trust anyone And that ought to be enough Because Snape is somebody Dumbledore trusts I know they say that he risked his life When he left You-Know-Who and joined us on Dumbledore's side I've never seen any proof That him swapping sides is really the truth And so he's been instructing Harry Some kind of mind defense but hearing this rather scares me We know he hates Harry's guts Tell me why should we trust? Teaching Occulmancy There is a good chance he's Not trying to help Opening his mind with those spells You say I should look at the facts And that I have a tendency now to over-react I should have faith in Dumbledore And you point out how I've been wrong before Like the time we were in our first year Was Quirrell's hex that made Harry's new broomstick start to veer Snape helped Harry on his Nimbus And so you say in him we should also trust Wearing the Dark Mark he Was in the hierarchy Of the Death Eaters How do we know he's not a cheater? Remember how Snape once reacted? He tied Lupin up in the Shack and he wanted Black dead And I'm sure you can also recall The day when he called you a Know-It-All The way this git behaves is a clue That he remains a Death Eater faithful to You-Know-Who I'll continue to think thus Will be a long time before he earns my trust Before he earns my trust He is the last person I'm gonna trust -Gail B....who sees there are so many wonderful new filkers out there and who now feels like a small fish in a big pond... _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From nansense at cts.com Thu Aug 14 08:23:26 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:23:26 -0000 Subject: Did Lupin do it? (was Tactics & Prescience) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77092 !> > > > holly_phoenix_11: > > > > ...it is really hard for me to be convinced that anyone, > > > > even Dumbledore, would sacrifice someone's life, even for the > > > > greater good, especially if they trully belong to the good side... > > massive snippage < > > > lupinwolf2001: > > > WHAT DID > > > I CARE IF NUMBERS OF NAMELESS and FACELESS PEOPLE AND > > CREATURES WERE > > > SLAUGHTERED IN THE VAUGE FUTURE, if in the here and now you were > > > alive, and well, and happy? I never dreamed that I would have > such a > > > person on my hands. > > > > madeyemood: > > but sirius had both name and face, both of which mean a great deal to DD. > > Marianne/kiricat: > And this leads to another incongruity in the "Dumbledore Had to Kill > Sirius" idea. DD seemed to have a certain fondness for Sirius in GoF > in that he helped find a hiding place so that Sirius could be near > Hogwarts for the Tournament. He had also been in touch with Sirius > throughout the year, which had to have been a welcome interaction for > a man on the run who was pretty cut off from society. He brings > Sirius in to be with Harry after the end of the Tournament. madeyemood: Thanks for the response, Marianne! Very interesting. If it's possible you've provided me with even more motivation to find my copy of GoF. > Marianne/kiricat: > Then, in OoP, his professed reason for keeping Sirius locked up in > Grimmauld Place, as he states flat out to Harry, was that he wanted > to keep Sirius alive. Okay, is he lying through his teeth here? Or > is he shading the truth? Is he telling Harry his original reason for > insisting Sirius stay hidden, and not telling Harry that > circumstances had changed over the months? In other words, had > Dumbledore's assessment of the situation indicated to him that Sirius > might have to be sacrificed in order to push Harry in a certain > direction? And, that when Sirius showed up at the Dept. of > Mysteries, Dumbledore was presented with a golden oppportunity to > ensure that happened? > madeyemood: Sometimes I regard DD as an energetic anomale whose consciousness is difficult for most anyone to begin to comprehend. His extraordinary abilities include effortless transfiguration, time travel, ability to communicate with all sorts of beings, toy with his mortality. There's this way that he Knows that is beyond our ken. He's involved in some wacky chess game with an evil madman, and he needs to make sure that the "weaknesses" of his personality, such as attachment to any individual, don't impede the chances of an overall win. That is, although he's a very downhome guy who can enjoy risking the occassional Bertie Bott's Bean (Alas, earwax!) and a fine pair of socks, he is one formidable wizard dude. If I were in such a position, I don't think that I would reveal what I know because it would simply overwhelm those around me. I can't imagine JKR's agenda including such a disclosure from DD. I just don't think it's her style. I wonder, once the books have been completed, how in depth JKR will go into the motivations of her characters. For obvious reasons she has to be rather closed of mouth now. Maybe in her sixties she'll write a tell-all about Dumbledore's unseemly nightlife! > marianne: > And, if that is indeed the case, how will Harry react to that, should > he ever find out? madeyemood: I think DD would want to spare Harry that pain. It's too late at night to know if I've done your questions justice. Thanks again for your insights about Sirius, Dumbledore and the Goblet of Fire. madeyemood From nansense at cts.com Thu Aug 14 09:18:56 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:18:56 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77093 "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Only Rowling could make > me think 'Hermione Granger' is a perfectly normal name for the girl > next door. madeyemood: Strange but true. How does she *do* that? > feetmadeofclay: > I love all the names of the places and the people. I even > like 'Shacklebolt'. madeyemood: It even feels satisfying in the mouth. > > < madeyemood> > > In a way this makes Hermione an even more culturally relevant > > character. > > How do we stay conscious during these multicultural times in which > > social inequities are more subtle? > > feetmadeofclay: > Well... I fear she has little > desire to be such a subtle writer. She's very attached to the > boldness of charicature. It isn't a bad thing but it might get in > the way of developing more subtle themes. madeyemood: Whereas I feel that Rowling has succeeded here. Hermione is trying to come to terms with a difficult concept without the help of a mentor. I find her (both Hermione's and JKR's) mistakes a little beautiful. > feetmadeofclay: >Look at how much time was spent on developing Umbridge versus > Hermione's ongoing interaction (or non interaction) with the elves. madeyemood: I do notice this problem with proportion: like, almost every chapter having something to do with Umbridge. Okay! She's toad-like! Got it! But there's this way I'm still into the books. They just don't bug me, for the most part, except when it comes to grammatical faux pas. And even that's much less of a deal than it would have been for me a decade ago. For now I'm suspending critical faculties and skating on Rowling's sheer, gleeful inspiration. I find her books satisfying as a gestalt experience. They seem channelled, like some wacky New Age prophecy. > < > Of course only time will tell... But I have my doubts. I am sure the > elves will be important plotwise, but I am not sure there will be any > effectively drawn comment on Hermione's views. madeyemood: Were DD's words to Harry about Kreacher at all helpful? For me the elves are a pretty amazing component of the WW. And I profess a distinct fondness for the water coming out of the ears of the fountain elf. > > > < > > > Is OOTP just brain candy or is it literature? > > > > Perhaps neither? > > For me it's rather more candified than literary, but maybe really, really > > great candy? Like those Godiva dark chocolate scallop shells with > > the soft hazelnut mousse in the inside? > > > > > Oooo I like that - very funny. Not good for you - but certainly more > respectable than a kitkat. madeyemood: Interesting word, respectable. > > We may not be reading becuase of what the press is saying at all. madeyemood: This isn't absolutely true for me. I seek resonance from reviews, as well as deeper insight. But it's not as if anyone could even stop me from reading something I like, or get me to read something I don't. I'm familiar with this phenomenon of academics becoming furious at popular writers, even if those popular writers are academics as well. Wendy Donniger (who supposedly wrote a cool Potter article for some classy London rag) is a brilliant, innovative scholar who freaked when Joseph Campbell became so popular. The triumph of the mediocre! cried she. And she was right, but sort of missing another sort of point, imho. I guess I'm not an either/or kind of gal. I can eat a range of things and they don't all have to provide maximum nutrition. > > I found the emphasis on what Byatt deemed magic SHOULD be to be > unwarranted. I'm closer to thinking Hensher got it right by being > more charitable to the goals of the work. madeyemood: I'm not familiar with Hensher. > > > > > > There certainly are "better" books than Potter out there, > > for sure. But this is a special sort of cultural phenomenon. I could see > > a Chekhov play instead of watching "6 Feet Under", but I'd rather > > participate in a more culturally relevant experience. Besides, Peter > > Krause is hot. But I digress... > < > LOL! That is true as well. I never watched Smallville for its deep > characters or sophisticated themes. madeyemood: Oh, my dear, now I must object to the quality of 6 Feet Under being made analogous to that of Smallville. I simply must. You see, I can be judgemental! > < > I think the only way to keep me from becoming a weary media lemming > (what can I say - I'm weak) is for people within communities > (whatever they are - political, literary etc...) to use said media to > challange the status quo. > > Status quo was that the new Potter was sublime and Rowling was better > than ever. Byatt simply had a different view. A good media bounds > the ball around and makes us think. madeyemood: I wouldn't go so far as to say that Byatt was wrong. I guess I don't share her values. I don't need something to be aesthetically immaculate to deeply enjoy it. I am a fan of a number of forms of expression. Also, I don't relate to the idea of my opinions being strongly shaped by the media in that particular way. And yes, I'm all for active, open debate. I objected to Byatt's claim that there was something wrong about our passion for Potter indicating an adolescent quality. I found it fascinating to observe, then boorish of her to judge. I guess I don't believe that everyone is supposed to be so grown up. Thanks for the copious response, Golly! I hope you can find mine among the masses of other messages. madeyemood From melissa_haslam at moldflow.com Thu Aug 14 08:10:47 2003 From: melissa_haslam at moldflow.com (Me1is) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:10:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "daluben4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > > > > CW: This would be so Tolkein, I don't think she would want to be > > accused of the similarity. In a previous post (74023)I suggested he > > might lose all his powers and just go back to being a Muggle. > > Is there any evidence that Harry had *any* magical powers before he > was attacked by LV? DD told Harry that LV gave Harry some of his > powers when he gave him the scar. Could he perhaps have gotten *all* > of his powers from LV? Seems unlikely, but not impossible. > > Daluben Are you suggesting Harry might have been a sqib before voldermorts attack on him? Interesting. The other alternative to him losing all his powers and becoming a muggle is that the transferal of Voldemorts powers to Harry will be complete and he'll become all-powerful (I was going to suggest dark, but I don't think that's in the spirit of the series). There is no reason to assume that Volemorts powers will die with him. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 08:12:10 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:12:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77095 > wrote: > > > I think Harry is going to pull away from the trio so as to protect > > them, that doesn't mean his friends will allow this. This will put > > a strain on the feelings Hermione has for Harry and may push > her > > towards Ron (a shoulder to cry on). Ginny will be the one to pull > > Harry's head out and point it out to him that they will be forever > > in danger and no matter his feelings for any one girl in > > particular. That is when Harry will notice Ginny in a different > > light (red hair and green eyes like his mom? good with > charms like > > his mom? pretty good as a seeker like him? etc.). > > >Kelly: > Is there a theory out there that says that the trio will just remain > friends? That none of them will "get together"? Just curious. > > It will be interesting to see Harry's character develop in the next > few books and how he relates to his friends. Obviously people > he cares for are in danger, so will he pull away from them > completely? I think he'll want to seclude himself more, but it's > obvious that he is better off with them than without them. > > I really liked your theory though, about Harry and Ginny. It's > interesting the similarities you pointed out between Ginny and > Harry's mother - I had not noticed that before. Margaret (me): I personally prefer the Ron/Hermione ship, I think he needs someone sane around. And I love Ginny, but I don't want her to end up with Harry (As I fear she might) she'll always be Mrs. Harry Potter, never an entity in her own right, and pardon my using an overused phrase, but that girl's going places. Not sure where, but I have a feeling it'll be big. I actually want Ginny to end up with Neville, I just like them both so much, I think it would be perfect. ~Margaret From melissa_haslam at moldflow.com Thu Aug 14 08:20:06 2003 From: melissa_haslam at moldflow.com (Me1is) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:20:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77096 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > > This question must have been asked before, but I missed the answer. > > If the school's hospital has remedies to grow back bones, a plant to bring > > Miss. Morris back and cures to make H's teeth grow shorter, how come they can't > > improve eye sight? > > Even DD wears glasses. > > What is it about the eyes that they can't get 20/20 vision? > > If I were LV, all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- > > and finish him off ( unless Harry is like Luke Skywalker, who has the FORCE > > with him and can zap attacks blindfolded). > > Pook > > It's strange though - Harry has Lily's eyes, but it's James who wears glasses. (Or is > that just fan art/movie contamination?) Is there any significance to this? Something > along the line of Lily's strengths, James' weaknesses? > evangelina James wearing glasses isn't just movie contamination. In PS, (p153 UK version) when Harry is looking at his parents in the mirror of erised it says about James: "The tall, thin, black-haired man standing next to her put his arm around her. He wore glasses, and his hair was very untidy. It stuck up at the back, just like Harry's did." So you could be right :) From doomfloatie at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 08:31:15 2003 From: doomfloatie at yahoo.com (Diana) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:31:15 -0000 Subject: Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77097 > I must say I completely disagree. I think the reason that question was asked was because Snape was startled, startled enough to actually ask a personal question (not something he's exactly known for). > Seeing Harry experiencing being the brunt of cruelty at the hands of those whose were raising him and in whose care he was in seems very likely to have been the first time he saw what the reality of Harry's life at Privet Drive has been. Up until then, Snape-along with most of the magical community- would have assumed that "The Boy Who Lived" was in the care of some doting relatives. > Seeing that Harry was not only not with a family who spoiled or indulged him (as seems likely with James) was probably the first time it ever crossed Snape's conciousness that the spoiled brat who caused him so much misery at school was quite different from the orphaned child left behind. Fascinating theory! In my mind, I always imagined Snape asking this in a sneering sort of fashion, as though he was highly amused by the idea of Harry being chased around by a great big dog. For some reason, I've always assumed that Snape already knew about Harry's past, but now that I think of it, if Snape had known, he surely would have baited Harry about it during classes. > It likely showed him that although Harry may look like his father, and share some of his personality traits, Harry has suffered some of the very kinds of things Snape did. This was my first thought after having finished the book. I wonder exactly why Snape always dotes on Draco and prizes him so highly, when it's obvious Draco serves more of a parallel to James Potter than Harry ever has. There are, of course, huge differences between James and Draco, but the cockiness, the adoring fans from his house, the bullying and picking on people when they're doing harmless things -- all the traits of Pensieve!James that came as such a shock to Harry can be found in Draco. Is Snape really completely blind? I imagine so, he's carrying a heavy vendetta against Harry for his father's offenses, and we already know Snape is happy enough to turn a blind eye in the general direction of Slytherin house. But is it possible Snape has other motives for praising/prizing Draco? Besides the obvious (getting in Lucius's good graces, for one), does Snape have some psychological aspect, some feeling in his subconscious blinding him towards Draco's malicious actions? Perhaps Snape could realize the parallels between Draco and James and realize how easy it is to encourage a cocky teenage boy, and to aggravate the cockiness to new heights. *snerk* I, for one, would love a future chapter in which Draco sits, horrified, as someone recounts all the similarities between James Potter and himself. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 08:31:25 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:31:25 -0000 Subject: Hermoine's unexpected aiding of Fred/George Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77098 Does anyone else find it very amusing that Hermione is the reason Fred and George perfect one of their skiving snackboxes??? The fever fudge was giving them trouble (causing boils in a place generally not displayed to the public *g*) and they later say that Lee Jordan told them about murtlap essence, which fixes that. Lee Jordan was told by Harry about essence of mrtlap after a detention with Umbridge and her extra pointy quill. Hermione originally gave Harry the essence of strained murtlap tentecals (wonder if that's a plant or a squid type creature?) after one of his detentions with Umbridge. Just posting an amusing point very late at night ~Margaret, whyo secretly hopes this means Hermione is going to end up a product developer for Weasley Wizarding Weazes From melissa_haslam at moldflow.com Thu Aug 14 08:39:19 2003 From: melissa_haslam at moldflow.com (Me1is) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:39:19 -0000 Subject: The Killing Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77099 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcturusfelire" wrote: > I have been a member of this group for a while now but I haven't had > any questiones or any thoughts to add. Well now I do. > > My question is what is the underlying nature of the Killing Curse. > > Does it just kill, like if somebody was shot. I ask this because if > it just kills a person then it could be used as a legal method for > giving the death penalty or if you want to put somebody who is sick > and will die anyway out of their missery. > > Or does getting hit by the Killing Curse do something else. Like send > your soul to hell, destory your soul, banish it, or something else of > that nature. Like being hit with the Curse stops the normal process > when a person dies. If this is true then it would more than likely > account for the reason its an Unforgivable. > > I would like to know because it seems that if it just kills a person > than it could be used for legal/medical purposes. > > Thanks for taking the time and effort to read and answer my question. > > CarlPelleg. Wow - it's hard not to respond emotionally to this post, but I guess it depends on the culture you are bought up in. In Australia is is completly illegal and unforgiving to kill for any reason. You are most definitly NOT allowed to kill for medical reasons, and there is no death penalty for criminals so you can't kill for legal reasons either. So what I'm saying is that the fact that the curse simply kills a person is MORE than enough to make it unforgivable. I do see what you are saying though - if you live in a country where it is legal to kill for certain reasons, I'm sure (hypothetically) that the Avada Kedavra curse could be used. From redfish5 at onetel.com Thu Aug 14 10:11:57 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 10:11:57 -0000 Subject: Ron's consolations (was: Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote: (snip) > > Another thing that makes me feel (hope ?) that a Harry/Hermione > relationship is something that we should expect is the fact that > Harry certainly doesn't want to feel too isolated again, especially > after Sirius' loss (remember his outburst of furry at the beginning > of OoP when he first met Ron and Hermione ? This was the toughest of > several in the book). > > Again, since the one person that constantly keeps supporting him is > Hermy (see the Rita Skeeter example for instance), I dare say that > she has become the closest character to Harry (forget Dumbledore, > Ron, Lupin, etc.), and the one that really succeeds in helping him > (let's repeat it : forget Dumbledore ; if you're not convinced > compare his attitude towards Harry's dreams : who was the wisest, > Dumbledore - doesn't talk to Harry anymore, asks Snape to give him > lessons - or Hermione - had Harry followed her advice, Sirius would > still be there). > > Another example seems very intesting to me on the symbolical point of > view. Remember with who Hermione was when Ron's triumph as a goal- > keeper occurred ? A clue, first letter is H... > > Talking about that makes me think of something that concerns the > whole scheme of OoP. In this book we see Ron achieving ALL his goals, > all his dreams, just as expressed in PS when he was looking in the > mirror. He becomes a prefect AND plays Quidditch (actually, he is the > new star of the G team). Maybe that's the compensation he gets > throughout OoP, for his dreams become true but at the same time this > is made possible at a great cost as Hermione seems to withdraw. > > One last thing, it has also been said that Harry and Hermione would > have nothing to say if they had a love-affair. This leads me to add > two comments : > a) Same problem (perhaps even worse) with Ron. > b) Hermione isn't just interested in someone because he or she has > problems. Even if this was true, she would then find Ron REALLY > uninteresting and boring. > > Quite long, isn't it. Well, see ya ;-) > > AAm. Good post AAm I have to admit, even as a ardent R/H shipper(i.e, it's what I want), the evidence is piling up for a H/H ship, there little to nothing from Harry yet but it is easy to argue now he is over Cho he may look again, Hermione's feelings became pretty clear to me in OOTP, Her reaction to him kissing Cho, Trying to get Harry to spend a night making hats with her, and dare I say it...Ginny's crush on Harry evaporating during the summer, when she was with Hermione most of the time? Ron's feelings are clear and the fog around Hermione's is lifting ever so slighty. Harry is the wild card. Seb From sarahlizzy at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 11:04:25 2003 From: sarahlizzy at hotmail.com (sarah_haining) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:04:25 -0000 Subject: DD responsible for L&J- Lily's sacrifice DD's doing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > I've pondered (and posted) on DDs actions with James and Lily before. > I think Snape is an irrelevence in this scenario; what matters is DD and > what he knew. He knew the prophecy. One possible interpretation of > the prophecy *could* (not definite) foretell the deaths of the parents > of the chosen one. If this is so, then the deaths have to happen to > provide Voldemorts Bane. > If true, DD had no alternative but to be prepared to sacrifice the parents > of the child Voldy picked. > And he's cold-blooded enough to do it. > > Kneasy Might be going off on a tangent a little here but my own theory on this is yes, Dumbledore knew that for Harry to be saved his parents would have to die. Not becuase of an untapped meaning in the prophecy, but because he knew that a baby would be no match for Voldy - the whole love-sacrifice scenario. But, I don't (or can't:) believe that DD is as cold blooded as all that; I think he told James, Lily, Alice and Frank about this. If Voldemort were to find them they knew that they would have to sacrifice themselves to protect their child. DD may have presumed that Lily and Alice would do this anyway but the stakes were too high to gamble the possible saviour of the wizarding world on a presumption. The reason this works for me is becuase, like Wanda mentions, I can't believe that Lily was the first mother in the history of the Wizarding World to die to protect her child. In fact, her sacrifice was the first time ever anyone has shielded a loved one from the curse - even with the 'whole family cursing' going on during Voldemort's first reign (The Bones, the Prewetts, the Fawcetts...). That's not even including Grindlewald's reign. I'd expect at this time alone there would be more than one occasion where someone said 'Please, take me, just don't kill [name]' Therefore I explain it away by DD telling the parents that Voldy was after their children, the Fidelus Charm would hide them but if they were found they would have to perform a Charm that would save their baby's lives. This protection would have to be specifically conjured before-hand, and would be incredibly tricky to perform. This would explain (for me, anyway) why it hasn't happened before now - it can only be done if you have prior knowledge that you are a target and if you are a very powerful wizard. So yes, with refernce to your statement, Kneasy, I think DD was responsible for James and Lily's deaths but only in that he told them the Charm they would have to perform. :-) -Sarah From eyalronel at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 11:30:38 2003 From: eyalronel at hotmail.com (luppl) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:30:38 -0000 Subject: Harry doesn't focus on girls In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77102 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ajlboston" wrote: Anyhow, let's see what happens. Harry's got a lot on his plate right now if he's thinking of Quidditch and homework as rubbish when Death Eaters escape, so he may not wish to focus on girls. > A.J. Eyal agrees: Since the whole story is told from Harry's point of view (PoV), you can't ignore the fact that girls not very often cross his mind, and we are well-briefed of every dilemma, ponder or dream that Harry experience, with a vivid description of the going in his stomach (especially around Cho, in Goblet of Fire). Some posters pointed out that Harry doesn't show any romantic feelings towards Hermione, and gosh, does he look disoriented on his date with Cho in that cafe in Order of the Pheonix! In my opinion, Harry hasn't matured yet the feelings he has are not very solid. It could all change drastically at a specific point with no problem, if a girl will happen to fall into his lap and lead the whole relationship. Cho expected him to lead the way, much like Cedric Diggory and the other guy from Ravenclaw, and Harry just can't supply this demand. That's just another proof that he's not built up yet for a serious relationship. Until Ms. right arrives and sweeps him off his feet. I can't wait for *this* to happen. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 14 12:25:35 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:25:35 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Don't forget that part of Tom Riddle, d/b/a Lord Voldemort, is now > part of Harry. The bond exists already - and perhaps a shadow of > memory as well. Wanda: I agree - the "recognition" Harry feels at his name is due to the transferrence of some of Voldemort's personality to Harry. But, as we discussed before, it's interesting that he did not feel this recognition when he first heard the name "Voldemort", only "Riddle", and it was a strange feeling of familiarity, almost like he was hearing of a lost friend. > > Jim: > I always prefer the simplest explanation to anything. Wanda: In real life, I do too, but in a Rowling novel, it doesn't always work that way! :) Jim: If Voldemort > had succeeded in killing baby Harry, kept his body and his powers, he > wouldn't have considered his night's work done without visiting the > Longbottom household and taking care of business there. It's the King > Herod, kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out system, but right up > Voldemort's alley. Wanda: I'm not so sure of that. Even the King Herod story is a little more complicated. If you recall, Herod first tried to get specific information about the new King of Kings - from the Magi. He told them to come back and tell him where to find the baby. When that plan failed, he went on to his next solution: kill ALL the children, in the hopes of getting the one he wanted. He went that route because he didn't know which child was the dangerous one, but that wasn't his first choice. In the case of Voldemort, his task is considerably easier: he only has a choice of two babies. He went after the Potters. At the moment, we don't know exactly what his thinking was at the time. Was it just the first of two planned killings? Or did he go for them because he thought he knew which baby was the right one? The fact that he went in person to do the killing, which was not a typical occurrence, seems to me to indicate that he considered the Potters a special case. I think Voldemort thought that he had the right kid - if he'd succeeded in killing Harry, as he expected to, maybe he would have then killed Neville, maybe not. It couldn't hurt, as far as Voldemort was concerned, but it also wouldn't be as important - only ONE child was a threat to him, not both. If he wasn't sure, he'd kill them both; if he WAS sure, he'd kill one for certain, and maybe two, but not necessarily. If he got the right one, and was SURE he had the right one, then Neville would just be an ordinary baby. I'm hoping that we'll hear more about what Voldemort was thinking on the day he killed the Potters. Maybe Wormtail will provide some information - he was the one who made the killing possible, maybe Voldemort said something when he got the news of where to find the Potters, and we'll find out if he really had zeroed in on them as the prophecied danger. Wanda From Lynx412 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 12:35:31 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:35:31 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Job Message-ID: <62.3366fab5.2c6cdc13@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77104 In a message dated 8/14/03 12:27:13 AM Eastern Daylight Time, daluben4 at yahoo.com writes: > Is there any evidence that Harry had *any* magical powers before he > was attacked by LV? DD told Harry that LV gave Harry some of his > powers when he gave him the scar. Could he perhaps have gotten *all* > of his powers from LV? Seems unlikely, but not impossible. > I think Hagrid's comment about Harry's name being down for Hogwarts since his birth [SS/PS] negates that theory. According to JKR a magic quill writes down the names of all the magical children at birth. Harry would have had to have magical ability then. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 12:57:30 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:57:30 -0000 Subject: Re Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77105 > > Tj: > > > Molly is a pet name for Mary. Yes that is a royal name as > > > well. (ha ha I think :D ) > > > Well firstly there has been some debate about whether Ginny's name is > > > actually Virginia - could be Guenevere. But anyway Virginia (the state) is > > > named after Elizabeth I the Virgin queen. So Ginny's name could be described > > > as royal > > > > Ginny's name could also be Regina, Latin for "queen" and used by many English queens in their signatures. If anyone remebers the BBC series "Elizabeth R" (with Glenda Jackson playing the title role), the "R" stands for Regina; according to a biography I recently read about Victoria, she also signed "Victoria Rwgina". > > > > KAT/rxk > > Arrgh, and it's just now occurred to me the another royal name that might have Ginny as a nick-name for is Eugenie, the name of Napoleon's 2nd wife and, if memory serves, the name of one of the daughters of the present Duke of York. > katoklzmk/rxk Here's another one: Ginny is also short for Georgina. The feminine of George a very Royal name. Mandy From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 13:04:02 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:04:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and how he knew about Ginny's possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77106 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "angelberri56" > > > wrote: > > > > I'm sorry if this has already been said, but: > > > > > > > > How did Dumbledore know that Voldemort had possesed Ginny, > > > > at then end of CoS... when Harry stopped talking because he > > > > didn't want to say that Ginny had done all the Petrifying? I'm > > > pretty > > > > sure it was because of Occlumency, but if someone else has an > > > > idea, please tell me. > > > > > > > > Also, in PS/SS, when Hermione and Harry go up to the North > > > > Tower to drop off Norbert, and then leave the invisibility > cloak, > > > > how did Dumbledore know where it was to return it to Harry's > > > > bed? Remember, it had a note attached to it that said: "Just > in > > > > case." That was most likely Dumbledore who left it. How did he > > > > know it was there? Did he just find it there by accident and > then > > > > return it to Harry? > > > > > > > > "angelberri56" > > > > > > Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry "closer than he > > > realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. The best explanation to > > how > > > he knows so much is that he was there when the incidents > happened. > > I > > > personally favor the idea that Dumbledore is (yet another) > > > unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we see during > Harry's > > > transfiguration OWL. > Also remember in GOF there was a wasp in the room when Harry and Hermione were practicing spells. I dont remember the page number but I stood out as I read GOF again. IMO the wasp is significant but I am not sure if the wasp is DD or maybe a DE, possibly Lucious Malfoy. Yeah, Lucious Malfoy is out there, and I connect the wasp to him because in OOtP, the wasp is buzzing around about the time Harry falls asleeps and sees LV and Sirius. I am thinking the wasp told LV that Harry is most vulnerable at this point so LV and get into his mind. Fran From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 13:05:48 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:05:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77107 > > No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to be Minister of Magic one day > and > > Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice simple girl to > > love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. Weasley. > > > > Mandy - anticipating a H/R/H triangle that's going to end badly > but > > all will be friends in the end. If they all survive. ;-) > > Do you honeslty think Ron would care if Hermione was Miinister > of Magic? Ron will be too busy starting a quidditch little league > with his kids and 37 red headed nieces and nephews, and he > doesn't need his wife Hermione at home nagging everyone > about homework while they're trying to practice. > > -QoE -expecting a R/Hr Ship because the result is bound to be > hilarious. Mandy again: That's just the point Hermione would't be at home, she's going to be running the country, well the WW at least. And yes Ron would care. The yongest of 5 brothers and a thirst to prove himself, Ron has an ego that that would never let him be happy with such an highly sucessful wife. Ron needs is be the King of his Castle and like I said before a loving supportive wife who will stay at home and raise his 10 redheaded kids. That's not to say R/H won't go out but it would never last. Mandy expecting Howlers. From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 13:19:38 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:19:38 -0000 Subject: Molly and Hermoine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > From reading the posts- mostly the SHIP posts- I see a lot of people > refer to Molly as simple. I think there is a whole lot more to Molly > than we think. The way that Dumbledore allows Harry to stay at the > Burrow under mainly her care (since Arthur goes to work) and the way > Dumbledore speaks to her at the end of GOF I think that Molly is a > much more powerful witch than she appears. She is doing guard duty > just like all the others and she is basically running the Order > Headquarters and I am not referring to just the cleaning of it. The > other members of the Order have a lot of respect for her. I think in > the books to come, we will see a very different Molly come out. > > I also think there is a huge side of Hermoine that we don't know > about yet. She seems to be in close contact with Dumbledore and > McGonnagal. There have been several times when she comes out with > bits of conversations that she has had with them. I think she is a > much bigger player than we think. I wish we could see things from > her POV sometime. Of course, I would love to read Hogwarts a History > also. : ) > Susan Susan I absolutely agree with you. Anyone who thinks of Molly as simple needs to wake up. She is a very strong, powerful women who is undoubtedly the head of her family. A loving mother and as we saw in Ootp who is not afraid to be come a warrior and possibly die to fight for what she believes is right. She was the only one to stand up to Sirius and tell him to his face that he is the worst possible choice to be Harry's surrogate father. I get the impression there are not many people who would have stood up to Sirius Black like that. Yes, she is a 'stay at home mum' but I for one was very glad JKR showed her in such a strong light in this last book. It's about time we saw just how strong a person it take to be a mum, she's given birth to 7 time no less!!!! Mandy, in support of strong warrior mothers. From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 13:22:59 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:22:59 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Why not? She's a spry healthy witch. If charlie chaplin could have > babies in his 70's why can't McGonagall marry Snape. > > I can just see the chess games over tea. Oh to be the child of that > marriage would be bliss. > Trying to shake that image is harder than shaking the bikini-undies on! I wonder if perhaps "we're" looking in the wrong direction here as to their relationship. They have *always* been friendly and except for DD, who Snape is deferential to (grammar police on the way) and who treats Snape like an annoyance at best--garbage at worst, she's really the only one who seems to have any sort of camaraderie with SS that we are privvy to. Given how long she's been at HW and looking at the awful scenes of SS's childhood we've been given I wonder if perhaps MMcG didn't at one time play a surrogate mother role or at least that of a caring aunt at some point during SS's school days. I find this far more palatable than thinking of her as his wife... I might go as far as Mother-in-Law but there's no evidence of that either. Melpomene From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 13:23:15 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:23:15 -0000 Subject: Dragons, Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rubyxkelly" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > > > all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- > > > > and finish him off > > > > > > OMG, so this has been swimming around in my brain for about a week > > > and this post clicked something. This is sheer speculation, > > > completely raw data, and I have no conclusion, but I was hoping > > > someone here could help me make sense of it all. > > > > > > Lily's eyes are green. Harry has her eyes. This is a big deal over > > > and over again. Evans is a Welsh name. The quintessential Welsh > > name > > > from what I understand. (There is a series of mysteries set in > > rural > > > Wales who's protagonist is named Evan Evans and people often joke > > > about how truly Welsh he is.) > > > > > > A very common dragon is the Welsh green. The eyes are a dragon's > > > weakest point. > > > Discuss. > > > klra2ra > > > > Wow you stopped me for a minute! You are absolutely right about the > > Dragon connection. The Dragon is the Welsh nation symbol. The Pen- > > Dragons, the ancient Welsh kings. Evens is the commonest Welsh name. > > Harry's eyes are his weakest physical point, I'm guessing. > > How does this link with Lily? Will she turn out to be his weak point > > as well as his greatest source of strength? Or perhaps LV will use > > her as Harry weak spot? > > I'm enthralled. > > Mandy > > Or will it be a clue that Harry, through lily, is related to Salazar Slytherin through Slytherin's Muggle side? > Dragons were also called the "Great Wyrm" in ancient times, and were often portrayed as serpents, or serpent-bodied. (The Kraken seamonster/sea-serpent that Persues saved the maiden Andromeda is a good example). Perhaps it isn't Harry's physical vision that is his weak point, but rather his (as yet) inability to look at things/people/events surrounding him in a less subjective way, since one of the signs of maturity is trying to at least make an effort to be objective. This has been one of his main weaknesses so far, and we saw it truly displayed in the OOtP where Voldemort uses his lack of judgement to lead Harry to blindly follow his own will despite warnings from those around him....to the point where he refuses to even attempt to subjugate his emotions despite knowing/experiencing clear signs of the connection Voldemort has made. > Also, if it is possible that Lily was related to Slytherin Muggle- wise, maybe the mark left on Harry isn't a scar that's shaped like s lightening-bolt, but one shaped like an "S". > Kat O'Klzmk/rxk Mandy (rredordead at a) again: Very interesting. I'm a great fan of Lily being a desendant of Slytherin and possibly LV through his Marvolio side of the family. From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 13:28:15 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:28:15 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: : OK, but I still don't get where this vampire thing comes from. If > Snape is in fact a vampire, he's pretty pathetic. No one in the books > is even turning up with bite marks! Please, don't tell me he's living > off chickens or something. That's just undignified. > LOL! AND I still say the whole issue was shut in OoP. If he was a Vampire and ESPECIALLY if he was a Half/Quarter/Eighth/Sixteenth/adinfinitem Vampire UMBRIDGE WOULD HAVE FIRED HIM! She'd have been checking students for bite marks during his "reviews". She certainly wouldn't have stood around expecting the best of him based on anything Lucius said. Melpomene, sick to DEATH of the Vampire "theory". From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 13:32:36 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:32:36 -0000 Subject: Snape adopt Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klra2ra" wrote: > Goblet of Fire, Chapter 22p 392 US paperback edition: > > "...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them play games in class > than adopt Harry." > > Any hidden meanings? I haven't given it a whole lot of thought, but I > thought I would run it past the "reading too much into things" > experts :) and see if anyone thought this was one of those offhand > remarks that might mean something in the future. > Considering that "next year" Harry will be of legal age and therefore in no need of adoption,I'd say no. No hidden meanings. Melpomene From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 13:39:24 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:39:24 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Family? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77113 Does anyone else out there wonder if Dumbledore has or had any family? He seems to be a wonderful man and I'd be surprised if he was not married at some point. If so, who are and where are his children and grandchildren? Wouldn't his grandkids be about James and Lily's age? Could any of his family have been in the Order? And this is a long shot but...could someone like Dorcus Meadows have got murdered by LV himself because she was a relative? It's a stretch, but I has occurred to me a couple of time and I'd thought I'd throw it in there. What do you all think about Dumbledore's family? Mandy From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 14 13:40:16 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:40:16 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House (long) References: Message-ID: <001801c3626a$4910d080$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 77114 From: feetmadeofclay <>> Just sounds like a normal teenager to me :) Really? Most teenagers lie to their friends and everyone they know about anything and everything? Parents maybe ... but many have decent working relationships with their parents (who BTW aren't dumb as bricks and can tell when a kid is lying). Sorry but I can't say it was average teenage behaviour... Because it simply isn't. Some kids are like that. On average most kids aren't reflexive liars. People (and little CHILDREN TOO) tend to lie when they have something to gain. <> -------------- Or protect. As I said, this is a difficult transition time. Most kids, due to increased hormone levels, suddenly start to feel more impassioned about the things around them (and not just about sex). They also start to think more about their personal tastes, and sometimes something as simple as a musical preference or style of clothing can break up a life long friendship. They are growing, and uncomfortable with changes to their own bodies, and the changes of feelings towards people around them. So they cover up more and more of the things that as children they were candid about. This is typical behaviour. It is something that usually decreases as they get more confident with themselves.(Dawn) -------------- <>Sure but Harry was always capable of handling himself. He was mature (unaturally so) and he knew right from wrong. So that should continue unless he had a personality transplant over the summer. Gone is boyscout!Harry - here is Teenager!Harry.... I find it hard to believe that the Harry we knew is going to grow over one month into the Harry that is. <<>> ---------- Hmm, so when a 'game' goes wrong, he sees a school mate murdered before his eyes, he is partly responsible (however unwillingly) for the return of Voldermort and with him the threat of destruction of society as he has come to know it, and is then completely seperated from everyone he has come to trust and rely on, he just continues life as the same loveable schoolboy? (Dawn) ----------- <> Since when does Harry reflect the behaviour around him? He never has; why start now? Besides I think many teenagers are far more demanding than Harry was. I kept wondering why he never demanded to know more if that is what he wanted? If he's so rebellious and angry why not lash out in a way that is geared to getting what he wants? If he wanted to know why he had to stay with the Dursleys, why not ask and refuse to go until he got an answer? If he wanted to know if he was possessed - ask someone. If he wanted Sirius to stop treating him like James most rebellious kids would just scream "I'm not James!" or something to that effect. <> Average kids don't take to being kept in the dark. And in this situation there was no reason for Harry to go along and take it - especially since he was so angry. ------------ Harry spent all his formative years under the abusive regime of the Dursleys. He has spent the majority of his life learning not to ask questions or display his joys and fears openly. I can see that he fears rocking the boat too far, although he has rarely resisted the occassional wobble. Harry has always hidden things from those around him, but he is now coming to realise that this is not just a case of keeping things to himself, but it affecting the lives of other people. He had not really had to deal with this kind of thing before. He needs the support, love and friendship of those around him, but at the time he needs it most he discovers that everyone has been keeping secrets from him, have their own agendas. He desperatly wants to maintain their affection, but also to prove himself. He seems to see their attempts to protect both him and the secrets of the Order as rejection and exclusion, because this is what he has been used to. Vernon won't let him read a newspaper or listen to the news reports, Dumbledore and his friends won't tell him what's going on, either. He has not the temperment or the experience to cope very well with this, so he continues to hide things from others. He is now considering that the people he thought he could open up to and rely on aren't so close after all, and being too demanding will drive them away, or to behave like the Dursleys. He doesn't want to lose even a semblance of affection and support. Harry might think if he asked 'Am I possessed?', everyone will fear and avoid him, distrust him, or worse, so he keeps his fear in. If he turned on Sirius and said 'I'm not my father', Sirius might say, 'No, I realize now you are just some school kid I've met a few times that happens to be related to someone I knew many years ago'. He wants to be accepted and loved. His anger (irrational or not) has increased because he has discovered that noone unconditionally or fully does so. He thinks revealing his fears, anger and other feelings will only earn him further rejections. As for him starting to reflect the behaviour of those around him, this is again a natural result of his growing up - he is echoing and adapting his personal and social behaviour independantly, rather than being led, like a child.(Dawn) ------------- <> For instance ... It was obvious to Snape that Harry wasn't trying with Occulumency. He'd be reporting to DD. What happens? Nothing. The fate of the wizarding world rests on this boy's shoulders but they do nothing to ensure he's doing what he is supposed to. ------------- All we actually know is that at the time Harry sees nothing happen about his failure. What is going on behind closed doors at the Order and the school we are not privy to. There could be concerns, for instance, that too much interference might actually make Harry susceptable to Voldermort in some way, or else rob him of too much of his independence. They don't know yet whether they will have to use Harry as a tool to destroy LV, or he will independantly find the means within him. Tipping the balance could be disasterous. (Dawn) ------------- <> Yes yes... Those hormones. Because no boy ever kept his eye on a girl and his brain in his head at the same time. No boy ever managed to do his work, struggle through rough times and not be entirely thrown by hormones... Wow we should have told that to all those boys who for centuries ran farms, helped their families through famine and hardship, ran countries, went to college, became clergy, went to war, learned a trade - all admist their teenage years. That would be simply impossible with all those hormones raging. Teenage boys are really good for nothing at that age. So... let us not forget how stupid boys get when hormones enter the picture. Except Neville seems devoid of them and remains the sane pleasant child he always was. How'd that happen? Guess he's a late bloomer. Golly -------------------------- Again, I point out that the 'raging hormones' are not just a dramatic increase in sex drive. It means that the flood of testosterone and other hormones (and girls get this too) makes you more impassioned and heightens your senses generally. How many teenagers will sit listening to the some album at full volume for hours on end? At the time it feels right, then they (usually) outgrow it. Some will throw themselves into following or taking part in a sport (and remember, Harry is prevented from that release in this year), or some other hobby. It can also mean that without proper support and guidance it is easier to go hurtling off in the wrong direction or to overreact to the smallest things. Raging hormones are powerful, but are no excuse for 'bad' behaviour, and can be a good thing with a suitable outlet. As for his being unaffected, the effort Neville puts into taking part in the DA could well be where he is channelling at least some of his hormonal ardour, or else in other areas that Harry has no real interest, so we don't hear about it. I accept that for generations those going through puberty have managed to cope with the things you suggest - but with the support and guidance of others, like family, government or ministers, religon and other authority figures and support structures(and there is plenty of evidence that they still went of the rails and had tantrums, as well). Harry has not only gone through some very upsetting times, but when he comes back, he finds that Dumbledore has withdrawn from him, the authority of the teachers is being undermined by Umbridge and the MoM, the media is convincing even his school mates that he is untrustworthy, and his godfather is behaving irresponsibly. Just when he needs it most, his support network is flawed. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From losangelis at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 13:47:38 2003 From: losangelis at yahoo.com (Wiley Willowsbough) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:47:38 -0000 Subject: How Many Forum Members Does It Take.... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77115 Apologies if this has been posted before, but I laughed so hard when I saw it. Feel free to flame me off list if you wish. How many forum members does it take to change a lightbulb? 1 to change the light bulb and 1 to post that the light bulb has beenchanged 14 to share similar experiences of changing light bulbs and how the light bulb could have been changed differently 7 to caution about the dangers of changing light bulbs 27 to point out spelling/grammar errors in posts about changing light bulbs 53 to flame the spell checkers 41 to correct spelling/grammar flames 6 to argue over whether it's "lightbulb" or "light bulb" ... another 6 to condemn those 6 as anal-retentive 2 industry professionals to inform the group that the proper term is "lamp" 15 know-it-alls who claim they were in the industry, and that "light bulb"is perfectly correct 156 to email the participant's ISPs complaining that they are in violation of their "acceptable use policy" 109 to post that this forum is not about light bulbs and to please take this discussion to a lightbulb forum 203 to demand that cross posting to hardware forum, off-topic forum, and lightbulb forum about changing light bulbs be stopped 111 to defend the posting to this forum saying that we all use light bulbs and therefore the posts are relevant to this forum 306 to debate which method of changing light bulbs is superior, where to buy the best light bulbs, what brand of light bulbs work best for this technique and what brands are faulty 27 to post URL's where one can see examples of different light bulbs 14 to post that the URL's were posted incorrectly and then post the corrected URL's 3 to post about links they found from the URL's that are relevant to this group which makes light bulbs relevant to this group 33 to link all posts to date, quote them in their entirety including all headers and signatures, and add "Me too" 12 to post to the group that they will no longer post because they cannot handle the light bulb controversy 19 to quote the "Me too's" to say "Me three" 4 to suggest that posters request the light bulb FAQ 44 to ask what is a "FAQ" 4 to say "didn't we go through this already a short time ago?" 143 to say "do a Google search on light bulbs before posting questions about light bulbs" 1 new forum member to respond to the original post 6 months from now and start it all over again From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 13:50:18 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:50:18 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > wrote: > > > : OK, but I still don't get where this vampire thing comes from. If > > Snape is in fact a vampire, he's pretty pathetic. No one in the > books > > is even turning up with bite marks! Please, don't tell me he's > living > > off chickens or something. That's just undignified. > > > > > LOL! AND I still say the whole issue was shut in OoP. If he was a > Vampire and ESPECIALLY if he was a > Half/Quarter/Eighth/Sixteenth/adinfinitem Vampire UMBRIDGE WOULD HAVE > FIRED HIM! She'd have been checking students for bite marks during > his "reviews". She certainly wouldn't have stood around expecting > the best of him based on anything Lucius said. > > Melpomene, sick to DEATH of the Vampire "theory" Severus here: Vampires, unlike werewolves, are civilized, intellegent, and socially minded in most cases. Werewolves, when in their wolf state, cannot control their urges, cannot be reasoned with, or controlled like pets. They are wild and conpletely unpredictable, James and Sirius, in human form, would have been eaten by Lupin if they had tried to reason with Lupin while in his wolf state. Vampires are not the risk that werewolves are. Umbridge would have kept Snape, at Malfoy's input, and Snapes performance as a bane to Harry's existence. Umbridge set the Dementors on Harry and we still do not know if she in league with LV or not. What I am saying is Umbridge would have kept any non-human if it meant Harry more grief and strife, the woman is a sadistic ****. Sorry, had to vent. I believe Unbridge would have kept anyone or rather anything that she could use to make Harry and Co. lives any more grievous. She would have kept Hagrid if he had not been Harry's and DD close friend. Severus "she makes me look like an angel" Snape From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 14 13:51:51 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:51:51 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77117 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: They have *always* been friendly and except for DD, who Snape is > deferential to (grammar police on the way) and who treats Snape like > an annoyance at best--garbage at worst, she's really the only one who > seems to have any sort of camaraderie with SS that we are privvy to. Do you really think Dumbledore thinks so little of Snape? I think he's rather protective of Snape - he never lets Harry get away with just calling him by his last name, he always makes a point of correcting him, and reminding Harry that it's *Professor* Snape. He does countermand him sometimes, and at the end of PoA he ends up making him look foolish, but honestly, Snape can be IMPOSSIBLE sometimes! I don't think it's inconsistent that Dumbledore can feel concern and even affection for his prickly Potions Master, while being perfectly aware of his faults and limitations. Snape doesn't seem like the sort who would be unaware if Dumbledore really thought so little of him, and I don't think he would take it tamely. He'd react the way he did with Umbridge - outwardly polite, but obviously seething. I never get the impression that he feels that way about Dumbledore Wanda From tatiana6336 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 13:57:58 2003 From: tatiana6336 at hotmail.com (daelyn_duprer) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:57:58 -0000 Subject: Eyes in the WW (was Re: Dragons, Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77118 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rubyxkelly" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > > > > all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point - -- > > > > > and finish him off > > > > > > > > OMG, so this has been swimming around in my brain for about a > week > > > > and this post clicked something. This is sheer speculation, > > > > completely raw data, and I have no conclusion, but I was hoping > > > > someone here could help me make sense of it all. > > > > > > > > Lily's eyes are green. Harry has her eyes. This is a big deal > over > > > > and over again. Evans is a Welsh name. The quintessential Welsh > > > name > > > > from what I understand. (There is a series of mysteries set in > > > rural > > > > Wales who's protagonist is named Evan Evans and people often > joke > > > > about how truly Welsh he is.) > > > > > > > > A very common dragon is the Welsh green. The eyes are a > dragon's > > > > weakest point. > > > > Discuss. > > > > klra2ra > > > > > > Wow you stopped me for a minute! You are absolutely right about > the > > > Dragon connection. The Dragon is the Welsh nation symbol. The > Pen- > > > Dragons, the ancient Welsh kings. Evens is the commonest Welsh > name. > > > Harry's eyes are his weakest physical point, I'm guessing. > > > How does this link with Lily? Will she turn out to be his weak > point > > > as well as his greatest source of strength? Or perhaps LV will > use > > > her as Harry weak spot? > > > I'm enthralled. > > > Mandy > > > > Or will it be a clue that Harry, through lily, is related to > Salazar Slytherin through Slytherin's Muggle side? > > Dragons were also called the "Great Wyrm" in ancient times, and > were often portrayed as serpents, or serpent-bodied. (The Kraken > seamonster/sea-serpent that Persues saved the maiden Andromeda is a > good example). Perhaps it isn't Harry's physical vision that is his > weak point, but rather his (as yet) inability to look at > things/people/events surrounding him in a less subjective way, since > one of the signs of maturity is trying to at least make an effort to > be objective. This has been one of his main weaknesses so far, and we > saw it truly displayed in the OOtP where Voldemort uses his lack of > judgement to lead Harry to blindly follow his own will despite > warnings from those around him....to the point where he refuses to > even attempt to subjugate his emotions despite knowing/experiencing > clear signs of the connection Voldemort has made. > > Also, if it is possible that Lily was related to Slytherin Muggle- > wise, maybe the mark left on Harry isn't a scar that's shaped like s > lightening-bolt, but one shaped like an "S". > > Kat O'Klzmk/rxk > > Mandy (rredordead at a) again: > Very interesting. I'm a great fan of Lily being a desendant of > Slytherin and possibly LV through his Marvolio side of the family. I'm sure this has been discussed before, but eyesight seems the predominate way of doing magic in the WW. For the vast majority of spells, the object needs to be within view, or the spell-caster needs to have a mental image of the object (ex: Harry summoning the Firebolt in GoF) I'm sure there are counterexamples to this, but note that not even powerful wizards such as DD can cast a spell from a distance, or even from a different room if he is attacking someone. We have yet to hear of a physically blind wizard, but we have found that figurative blindness (Harry and DD in OoP) results in chaos and casualties. And many of us are hoping that Voldy's "blindness" about something will lead to his downfall. It's also interesting that much of JKR's imagery is visual; rather than describe sounds or smells she uses sight. I know this has been covered before, so I needn't elaborate. The only 'character' so far that has functioned without eyesight was the Basilisk - and Harry recovered from that encounter by Fawkes' tears - from his eyes. Dreams, visions, contact with DD, and Lily's Eyes - it all adds up to say that his eyes are Harry's greatest strength as well as his weakness. He needs glasses to correct his vision, and I wish he'd had some sort of glasses for the soul in OoP, maybe then he would have seen LV's plan for what it truly was. I hope that aside from inheriting the shape and color of his mother's eyes, Harry has gained something of her vision as well. Sorry that was so long, and I know it had nothing to do with dragons - unless you want to say that unlike a snake, (or a basilisk) a dragon relies on eyesight more than smell, so perhaps it is not a wyrm after all, and therefore farther removed from Slytherin than we have guessed. But this is all stuff and nonsense. Anyone else have ideas? ~Daelyn~ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 14:00:52 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:00:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore-Reading Minds In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77119 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" > wrote: > > My guess is Harry rarely has a > > moment of privacy unless he's bathing, which he never seems to do!! > > Geoff: Why is it that we have to have this thing about Harry's ablutions? > How many books have you read in which you get sentences like (all > imaginary by the way): > > "I'm off for a bath", said Bill, See you at tea". > > While Jim was changing his underpants, he was thinking over the > problem of the third letter. > > Jean decided that the best way to think about her relationship with > her aunt was to take a shower. > > Freda sat on the toilet seat reading the article on "Occlumency" and > trying trying to make sense of it. Ariadne: LOL! I have to agree with you there--who has time to find a bathroom in the MOM with Lord Thingy on the loose? Not to mention the average HP book would be the size of a dictionay. Besides, I remembered Harry doesn't get to be alone in the bath--he's accompanied by a mermaid and Moaning Myrtle--so he's offically being "watched over" ALL the time.... From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 14 14:01:57 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:01:57 -0000 Subject: The Killing Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcturusfelire" wrote: > I have been a member of this group for a while now but I haven't had > any questiones or any thoughts to add. Well now I do. > > My question is what is the underlying nature of the Killing Curse. > > Does it just kill, like if somebody was shot. I ask this because if > it just kills a person then it could be used as a legal method for > giving the death penalty or if you want to put somebody who is sick > and will die anyway out of their missery. > I just remember Crouch/Moody saying in GoF that it takes a powerful lot of magic to make the AK work, and that the whole class could point their wands at him and say it, and it probably wouldn't do a thing. Where this magic could come from, he doesn't explain, but I suspect that it would have to be from Hate. The Killing Curse is part of the Dark Arts, after all. When you AK someone, it's almost like hating them to death; I don't think it could ever be performed compassionately. I don't know if you could even perform it DISpassionately, as a judge would, impartially sentencing a criminal to death. It seems to me that the AK is evil from its root. Wanda From tatiana6336 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 14:05:09 2003 From: tatiana6336 at hotmail.com (daelyn_duprer) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:05:09 -0000 Subject: Please explain Ron and Luna? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > I just don't see a 'ship' between Ron and Luna at all. I've even > > seen it mentioned that Luna has a hero worship of Ron?? > Sorry don't > > see it. The couple of times I read Luna was staring at Ron > what I > > saw in that was that she, being the special girl that she is, > sees > > some kind of aura around him she either can't explain or has > seen > > before and is unsure of. I got the distinct impression she can > see > > into people's souls and perhaps their future. Luna is a seer > and she > > see's something in Ron's future. > > > > Luna and Harry...that's another story. Definatly a strong > connection. > > > > Mandy, ducking in anticipation of a slew of Howlers from > Luna/Ron > > ship fans. > > I'm not a Luna/Ron Ship fan (though the idea does seem quite > entertaining), but I definitely saw Luna acting a little like a > giggley-school-girl-with-a-crush (a very awkward one, but still...) > when it came to Ron (she actually giggled!). Didn't she make a > ROARING LION'S HEAD hat to support the Gryffindor Quidditch > team? And that is not even her house - and don't forget her > humming "Weasley is our King" (I know it wasn't a pro-Ron song > but I'm not sure if she caught on). She's wierd and I love her for > that. She's the perfect stalker for Ron - Why should Hermione > (Krum), and Harry (Ginny?) have all the stalker fun? > > > -QoE Oh, can't you just see it? Luna stalking Ron - and I'm sure she wouldn't be at all subtle about it. It's just steeped in comedic possibilities. I would love a Harry/Luna SHIP, but then who would Ron get? I'm not a Ron/Hermione shipper, so this leaves me stumped. No soulmate for Ron? Unthinkable. ~Daelyn~ From spinelli372003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 13:35:26 2003 From: spinelli372003 at yahoo.com (spinelli372003) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:35:26 -0000 Subject: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77122 Please bear with me here. This is my first totally new post. I wondered if anyone else had noticed that the Dursleys had sent things to Harry at Hogwarts. In GOF when he opens his gifts he gets "a tissue an all time low" from the Dursleys. So my question is how did it get to Hogwarts? We know the muggle mail does not go to Hogwarts as it is unplottable. So does Petunia use the owl mail to get it to him? Which brings up a whole new subject of how much does she actually know about the Wizerding World? Sherry From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 15:15:17 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:15:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814151517.86530.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77123 --- aamonn2000 wrote: > > > Mandy wrote : "No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to > be Minister of > Magic one day and > > Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice > simple girl to > > love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. > Weasley." > > I agree with you on that one. After all, Hermione, > as you just said > could well end up becoming the new minister of magic > while Harry, at > the same time, would become the new Dumbledore > (after his killing by > VD ?), following after him to the charge of Howart's > director. > Rowling may have stated that Harry was not to become > a Hogwart > teacher, but (to my knowledge) she didn't say that > he couldn't be > the school's director... Just a thought. > Bye. > > AAm. > Well, I find it highly offensive. No one thinks anything of a man being great and significant and having a wife who is either a helpmate or has a much less glamorous job. But if it's the otherway around there's a problem? Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 15:20:34 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:20:34 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and how he knew about Ginny's possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77124 > Also remember in GOF there was a wasp in the room when Harry and > Hermione were practicing spells. I dont remember the page number but > I stood out as I read GOF again. > IMO the wasp is significant but I am not sure if the wasp is DD or > maybe a DE, possibly Lucious Malfoy. Yeah, Lucious Malfoy is out > there, and I connect the wasp to him because in OOtP, the wasp is > buzzing around about the time Harry falls asleeps and sees LV and > Sirius. I am thinking the wasp told LV that Harry is most vulnerable > at this point so LV and get into his mind. > Fran Hey, how about Ludo Bagman? He has all the wasp imagery around him with the Wimbourne Wasps and his robe. Don't know what he'd be doing spying on HRH, unless he's ESE!Bagman, as theorized in Fantastic Posts....Ariadne From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 15:28:49 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:28:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814152849.88067.qmail@web20004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77125 --- severusbook4 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" > > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > > > wrote: > > > > > > : OK, but I still don't get where this vampire > thing comes from. > If > > > Snape is in fact a vampire, he's pretty > pathetic. No one in the > > books > > > is even turning up with bite marks! Please, > don't tell me he's > > living > > > off chickens or something. That's just > undignified. > > > > > > > > > LOL! AND I still say the whole issue was shut in > OoP. If he was a > > Vampire and ESPECIALLY if he was a > > Half/Quarter/Eighth/Sixteenth/adinfinitem Vampire > UMBRIDGE WOULD > HAVE > > FIRED HIM! She'd have been checking students for > bite marks during > > his "reviews". She certainly wouldn't have stood > around expecting > > the best of him based on anything Lucius said. > > > > Melpomene, sick to DEATH of the Vampire "theory" > > Severus here: > > Vampires, unlike werewolves, are civilized, > intellegent, and > socially minded in most cases. Wouldn't matter to Umbridge. She hates all "half-breeds." That hatred, I believe, blinds her to all else. Centaurs are intelligent too, and look how she treated them. And besides, there's wolfsbane potion now, and she only crafted anti-werewolf legilation after it was invented. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Aug 14 16:01:40 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:01:40 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House-Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77126 Hi Kneasy. Glad no offence taken, as certainly none meant.I just hate the idea of one race/class/whatever not only being subseviant to another race/class/whatever, but actually enjoying it, the poor saps.This is getting a bit off-topic but I would just ask why you don't consider destroying Winky in order to achieve your cover-up as ill-treatment. Best wishes, Sylvia P.S. Never had theluck to meet Tressell but I met his daughter. A very interesting woman. From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 16:03:34 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:03:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lily and Alice Longbottom Was: Who were Lily's Hogwa... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77127 In a message dated 8/13/2003 9:22:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, rredordead at aol.com writes: > Mandy (Rredordead at a) again: > I agree but I was hoping for a best friend who was alive enough to > tell us (through Harry) what the deal is with Lily! Can we expect > Alice to recover after 15 years in insanity? :-( > > Now me: Um, yes, actually :) I'm a supporter of the theory that there's something in the Droobles Blowing Gum that's keeping the Longbottoms insane and that they *will* be cured. I'd guess it'll happen in book 7 because we know we find out more about Lily in book 7 and I think the Longbottoms hold the key to something, I've got a bunch of theories as to what it is we need them for though and haven't narrowed it down yet. Do we have an acronym for the Gum/Longbottom theory yet?? ~RSFJenny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ajlboston at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 16:08:04 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:08:04 -0000 Subject: Hermoine's unexpected aiding of Fred/George In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77128 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > Does anyone else find it very amusing that Hermione is the reason > Fred and George perfect one of their skiving snackboxes??? > YES, I thought of it at midnight and was planning on posting it this morning! How odd! It is subtle humor when they say that Lee tipped them off to the murtlap essence, after Harry had tipped him off to it, after Hermione had given it to Harry. I wonder if she realized it... A.J. From sues0101 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 13:50:21 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:50:21 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77129 >From: "Diana" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's Insignificant Question During >Occlumency >Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:31:15 -0000 > >>This was my first thought after having finished the book. I wonder exactly >>why >Snape always dotes on Draco and prizes him so highly, when it's obvious >Draco serves more of a parallel to James Potter than Harry ever has. There >are, of course, huge differences between James and Draco, but the >cockiness, the adoring fans from his house, the bullying and picking on >people when they're doing harmless things -- all the traits of >Pensieve!James >that came as such a shock to Harry can be found in Draco. Is Snape really >completely blind? I imagine so, he's carrying a heavy vendetta against >Harry >for his father's offenses, and we already know Snape is happy enough to >turn >a blind eye in the general direction of Slytherin house. But is it possible >Snape has other motives for praising/prizing Draco? Besides the obvious >(getting in Lucius's good graces, for one), does Snape have some >psychological aspect, some feeling in his subconscious blinding him towards >Draco's malicious actions? Perhaps Snape could realize the parallels >between Draco and James and realize how easy it is to encourage a cocky >teenage boy, and to aggravate the cockiness to new heights. > >*snerk* I, for one, would love a future chapter in which Draco sits, >horrified, as >someone recounts all the similarities between James Potter and himself. > > Dipping a little into fanfiction here (only slightly though, as ever since we discovered that Snape is trusted by DD, I have actually thought this) I believe Snape has an ulterior motive for 'doting' on Draco and turning a blind eye to most Slytherin bad behaviour. IMHO he is 'softening up' the Slytherins. By making the Griffindors work harder for any slight compliment or even an absence of criticism, he is making them tougher, learn more and be prepared for when things dont always go their way. Case in point - Neville. (I have always believed he had a much bigger role in the series than what we had seen of him). In OoTP, he is fighting back. I dont remember any mention in canon about the treatment Snape hands out to other houses, so I have no proof that it isnt just an anti-Griffindor attitude. However, by making things easy for the Slytherins, they get lazy and complacent. The attitude is that they will get good grades by not doing anything much at all. Hence we usually see Slytherins coming off second best in most instances. There has to be some compelling reason why DD trusts Snape so much. He has asserted this often enough, but I just cant see DD allowing such blatant favoritism if there were not a benefit to his beloved Griffindors. Has this thought already been posted? Sorry in advance if it has. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage comes with McAfee Virus Scanning - to keep your Hotmail account and PC safe. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From pentzouli at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 14:19:50 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:19:50 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77130 > > Another possibility- calling him Tom could be considered an > insult? Instead of calling him Voldemort like I'm sure he'd like to > be called, Dumbledore is then talking down to him? Just a > thought... > > -Kelly me, holly : I agree with you, Kelly, and to strenghten this opinion, I'd like to add my own thoughts : Dumbledore is the only one that Voldemort fears, because Dumbledore knew Voldemort from the age of 11. I recently saw the second film, and from what I recall, the second book had this scene almost identical : Harry gets in the diary and finds out about the dead student. He witnesses the discussion between Riddle and Dumbledore, and he also witnesses the soft spot of Riddle, even if he was not aware of the orphanage background in order to combine the fact that Riddle was somewhat terrified by the chance of the school closing. So, Dumbledore knows the soft spots of Riddle, and that is why he will always be superior. He knows his weaknesses, he knows what drove him to that monstrous direction. To Dumbledore, Tom Riddle is just Tom. He could never be Voldemort, because he could never exceed Dumbedore in the magical abilities. His weaknesses make him so obvious to DD, that he can't expect any kind of credit from him. cheers holly_phoenix_11 From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 16:23:18 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 09:23:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Vampire? (was: Vampire!Snape) Message-ID: <410-220038414162318684@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77131 I wrote: Why Half-Vampire? Because I like to think he was born that way, and was already vampiric as a Hogwarts' student. But in canon, we've seen him age, so he couldn't have been just a pure vampire, or his age would remain static (unless JKR decides to play with that, which could very well be the case - more on this in a bit). To which Kneasy responded: This stirred my somewhat perverted imagination in a delicate direction. How does one ...umm...produce a half vampire? The ..ah.. mechanics of it intrigue me. How is it done? I think we should be told." Now me again (Wendy): I think you may have been joking when you asked this, Kneasy, but you know what they say about being careful what you wish for. I'm going to answer this, as I've actually given it rather a lot of thought. Sad but true. ;-) As to the mechanics, I say it happens the same way it happens with humans. Just because some vampire myths don't allow vampires to be fertile (or even have intercourse) doesn't mean that Potterverse vampires can't. Some vampire myths allow a male vampire to be fertile one night a year, but I tend to think that JKR might very well allow her vampires to be capable of reproducing all the time. And this really isn't a stretch at all, actually, considering that we already have canon for human/non-human relationships. Humans can breed with giants and veela (maybe there are others, but those are the two that come to mind). So I don't think it's outlandish at all to think that humans and vampires could reproduce in the Potterverse. You joked about an impervious neckguard, but there's no need for that. Let's say that a human and a vampire have fallen in love. Why couldn't this human voluntarily allow her (or his) vampire lover to feed on her/his blood? In fact, OoP gives us a lovely bit of canon to make this plausible: the blood replenishing draught. Every time Mr. V gets hungry, he has a little snack courtesy of Mrs. V, after which she takes a swig of the potion, and she's good as new. There's literary precedent for this sort of thing, it's been done before. No reason to assume that anyone bitten once is doomed to become a vampire afterwards. (Although, I do like to think that at some time after Snape was born, daddy dearest might very well have done the deed to mommy Snape, and she's a vampire too, now. Or dead. I don't think he was a nice guy at all). So maybe our beloved Potions Master has a blood donor hidden away somewhere, which is why he's not running around attacking the students. ;-) So, it is possible? Absolutely. As I said (rather strongly) in my other post, there is no "one true vampire myth" to which JKR must adhere. If she wants half-vampires, she can write them. And I don't think it's even a big stretch, given what we already know about the Potterverse. That doesn't mean she will deifinitely go this route with her vampires. Maybe she will, maybe not. But she hasn't yet written anything to rule it out as being possible. I know there are people out there who will think, "But what's the point of a half-vampire?" or whatever, and these people just hate the idea, think it's stupid or contrived or pointless or whatever. And that's absolutely fine! Those are all perfectly valid arguments as to why they don't choose to read Snape as a vampire. It's not for everyone. I gave my reasons why I like it. And I love reading the reasons others have posted about why they don't like it. As long as those arguments are valid, and don't hinge on, "well vampires can't have sex, because Rice's didn't," or "vampires can't go out in the daytime, and Snape does." It's JKR's world, and she gets to make up the rules. In cases where there aren't specific rules in canon, there's no reason we can go in and make up our own for the time being. Eventually, they'll all either be proven, disproven, or left open for us to speculate eternally. I'm not trying to convert anyone to belive in HalfVampire!Snape. I'm just saying it's how I prefer to read the canon because I think it's fun. You don't have to agree with me. Just so long as you don't say I'm obviously wrong about it, because fact is JKR just hasn't given us enough information one way or the other to prove or disprove this theory. Hope this helps! Wendy From YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com Thu Aug 14 15:44:24 2003 From: YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com (vivamus42) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:44:24 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77132 I'm afraid I don't have time to keep up with all the messages here, so forgive me if this has already been discussed, but I haven't seen anything on this, and was wondering . . . Umbridge was described in the Daily Prophet as "totally revolutionizing the Defense Against the Dark Arts," when whe was doing her level best to suppress it altogether. At the end of the book, she ran off, apparently in control of her faculties, and probably not totally disgraced. (I personally still think she is at least a Voldemoort sympathizer, if not a direct supporter, but I guess we'll find that out later.) What I'm wondering is, even though she did nothing in class but tell them to read a textbook which was obviously on NOT doing DADA, the Prophet said that she was revolutionizing the subject, and the students in her class probably did better on their OWLs than students have in many years. All as a result of Harry and the DA, of course, but that won't be public knowledge. So, I'm wondering if Umbridge will be lifted up as some kind of hero, teaching the Hogwarts students so bravely and so successfully when Voldemoort was secretly building his forces, etc., etc., (throw up when you need to), and working behind the scenes for the Ministry to finally run V to ground. Makes it look to the general wizarding public like Fudge was more successful than he really was, doesn't it? I wonder if we'll see some kind of redemption of Umbridge in the Prophet, based on her obvious gifts as a DADA teacher. Here's another thought: U seems to be very loyal to the MoM, but she is also a loathsome toad of a petty beaurocrat, who exists to play climbing power games. IF she gets redeemed, what if she uses that newfound popularity to unseat Fudge and take his place? Wouldn't that be a fascinating and horrible turn of events? And while we're on the subject of Umbridge, does anyone familiar with English law care to guess what the consequences of her midnight attack upon Hagrid might be (not to mention the unprovoked attack on McGonagall in front of many witnesses)? Vivamus From keltobin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 15:45:08 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 15:45:08 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Family? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > What do you all think about Dumbledore's family? \ I know that JKR mentioned that we would find out more about the teacher's families. However, I always assumed that the wizarding world, being somewhat old fashioned, could be compared to the muggle world of 100 years ago or so. I believe that when people entered the teaching profession (especially boarding schools) at that time, they were rarely married. This is especially true of females who entered professions such as this in lieu of marriage and often were expected to leave their teaching posts if they did get married. The second point to this is that the books are from Harry's POV. I know that kids rarely know much about their teacher's private lives and often assume they don't have a private life at all. So, from Harry's point of view, it makes sense that we don't see the teacher's spouses and children if, in fact, there are any. Kelly From nappyronin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 13:34:40 2003 From: nappyronin at yahoo.com (Evelyn Cash) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 06:34:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Vampire? (was: Vampire!Snape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814133440.58343.qmail@web80701.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77134 Wendy St. John wrote: >Why Half-Vampire? Because I like to think he was born that way, >and was >already vampiric as a Hogwarts' student. But in canon, we've >seen him >age, >so he couldn't have been just a pure vampire, or his age would >remain >static (unless JKR decides to play with that, which could very >well be >the >case - more on this in a bit). Okay, this is my first post so go easy on me. If Snape was *born* anything vampiric, he would have to be half-vampire since we know that pure vampires traditionally can't go out in the sun (and yes I'm assuming JKR's vamps can't stand sunlight). When he was at Hogwarts he certainly could go out in the sun because in Snapes Worst Memory JKR points out that the sun was shining brightly (or dazzling or something like that) just before James starts taunting Snape outside the castle. Since he was out in the sunlight at that point, he couldn't have been born pure vampire. Just backing you up although I also don't know how you make a half vampire but I guess if you can make a half giant then anythings possible. ~Lady Ronin (who really doesn't think he's a vampire at all but is willing to see all sides of this) --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sues0101 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 14:20:50 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:20:50 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House (long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77135 >From: "The Crashing Boar" >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House >(long) >Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:40:16 +0100 > > > From: feetmadeofclay > <>> Just sounds like a normal teenager to me :) > > > I accept that for generations those going through puberty have managed >to cope with the things you suggest - but with the support and guidance of >others, like family, government or ministers, religon and other authority >figures and support structures(and there is plenty of evidence that they >still went of the rails and had tantrums, as well). Harry has not only >gone through some very upsetting times, but when he comes back, he finds >that Dumbledore has withdrawn from him, the authority of the teachers is >being undermined by Umbridge and the MoM, the media is convincing even his >school mates that he is untrustworthy, and his godfather is behaving >irresponsibly. Just when he needs it most, his support network is flawed. > > > Dawn > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > Me" What teenager in the history of man has been through puberty, family problems, wars or whatever without ever maiking a mistake? Without ever behaving badly? Name me one and I'll accept that JK was wrong in letting Harry behave badly. His problems dont excuse his behaviour, bad behaviour is bad behaviour whatever age and whatever the extenuating circumstances are. Even kids with the best support network do the wrong thing sometimes. They make mistakes, learn from them if they're lucky and move on. I have two teenage boys at home (16 and 13) and I know they dont always do the right thing, their reactions to things I find pretty innocuous, are often dramatic, and vice versa. Misinterpretation of intent and actions is a certainty. at times they feed on the injustice of just being a teenager. Its almost a rite of passage to becoming an adult. Sometimes they behave the way we would expect young adults to behave, and sometimes they dont. The two major differences I see between my boys and Harry, is that my boys have me, plus they are not expected to save the world. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. Get five times more storage - 10MB in your Hotmail account. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 17:05:30 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:05:30 -0000 Subject: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: We know the muggle mail does not go to Hogwarts > as it is unplottable. So does Petunia use the owl mail to get it to > him? Which brings up a whole new subject of how much does she > actually know about the Wizerding World? > Sherry I always assumed that the Harry sent a note to the Dursley's with Hedwig, and then Hedwig waited for a few minutes to Petunia/Vernon to write a response, give it to Hedwig, and then Hedwig would bring the message back to Harry. However, Petunia's knowledge of the Wizarding World in OotP implies she is or has been more in touch with the WW then Harry knows, but further speculation is simply . . . speculation until the next two books come out. Or perhaps Hogwarts has some system for students like Hermione to stay in touch with their parents. Perhaps the Muggle Studies teacher makes trips to the nearest muggle post office for the students? The students of muggle birth should know how to address/stamp/etc an evelope, and (I hope) the Muggle Studies prof should know how to blend in and send letters at a Muggle Post Office. Hmm, wonder who the muggle studies prof is . . . -kg From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 17:07:56 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:07:56 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and how he knew about Ginny's possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Doesn't anyone remember Dumbledore saying he didn't need the > invisibilty cloak to be invisisble? He did say it after Ron and > Harry had visited the mirror of Erised. I don't remember exactly > where in SS. But he is able to move about the school invisibly. I > think that is how he kept an eye on Harry. > Geoff: He speaks of not needing an invisibility cloak in "The Mirror of Erised" while speaking to Harry after Harry's third visit to the mirror. p.156 in my copy. From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Aug 14 17:09:22 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:09:22 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House-Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77138 Hi Kneasey Just re-reading your post. You mention a relative speaking to Tressell just after the book was published. But Tressell never lived to see his book published. He left the manuscript to his daughter and it was some years after his death that the book was finally published (in a much bowlderised form) Perhaps your relative spoke to Kathleen (the daughter) who was very much her father's confidante. I met her when she was a very old lady, but still as sharp as a pin. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 14 17:13:01 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:13:01 -0000 Subject: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thetruthisoutthere_13" wrote: > Or perhaps Hogwarts has some system for students like Hermione to > stay in touch with their parents. Perhaps the Muggle Studies teacher > makes trips to the nearest muggle post office for the students? The > students of muggle birth should know how to address/stamp/etc an > evelope, and (I hope) the Muggle Studies prof should know how to > blend in and send letters at a Muggle Post Office. Hmm, wonder who > the muggle studies prof is . . . > Maybe Hogwarts has a Post Office box somewhere in London, where Muggle mail can be sent and then picked up by a MoM employee and forwarded by owl. There have to be some contact points between the WW and Muggle world; remember in Gringott's in CoS, Arthur Weasley is so interested when he sees Hermione's parents exchanging money there. Someone through the bank has to be able to transfer that Muggle money back into the outside banking system, or it would just sit there uselessly. And I suspect the Goblins are intent upon getting whatever interest they can, even if they have to do business with a Muggle bank. Wanda From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Thu Aug 14 08:33:30 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 04:33:30 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lucius Malfoy and LV References: Message-ID: <3F3B495A.1010405@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77140 S Handel wrote: > Ok, first, How did LV get into Slytherine? I thought you had to be a > pure blood to get into that house. Only one of LV's parents was > magical. According to the Sorting Hat's songs in the previous books, it puts people in Slytherin not based on genetics but on cunning and ambition. Even if genetics were the criterion, I'm sure that any descendant of Slytherin would qualify, even if of 'impure' blood somewhere along the line. From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 17:19:01 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:19:01 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77141 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > Am I the only one who thought that Voldemort was planning to kill > > both Harry and Neville. Maybe he just found Harry first. (snip) Did both families know? I'd like to think > they did and I'm sure they both went into hiding but they were also > fighting a war and were severely out numbered and were being picked > off slowly one by one, so I bet they were in hiding reluctantly and > I'm sure they broke the rules as it must have been hard to watch > their friends die and be unable to help. > > > The witch was Dorcus Meadows. A name we are going to hear again. She > has to be very important to get LV's personal touch. > Mandy CW comments: My theory is that only baby Neville had been hidden by his parents, maybe with his grandmother, and the two of them were protected by the same Fidelius charm that the Potters used. His parents, the Lestranges, remained out in the world fighting with the rest of the Order, and Bellatrix was detailed off by Voldemort to try and torture them into revealing his whereabouts. When she failed, Voldie guessed it was a Fidelius charm and that Dorcas Meadows was the secret keeper, so he went after her personally. From eberte at vaeye.com Thu Aug 14 17:19:35 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:19:35 -0000 Subject: Hermoine's unexpected aiding of Fred/George In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77142 > In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > > Does anyone else find it very amusing that Hermione is the reason > > Fred and George perfect one of their skiving snackboxes??? > > >"ajlboston" wrote: > YES, I thought of it at midnight and was planning on posting it this > morning! How odd! It is subtle humor when they say that Lee tipped > them off to the murtlap essence, after Harry had tipped him off to > it, after Hermione had given it to Harry. I wonder if she realized > it... > Me: One of the major themes of the interactions between Hermione and the twins in OoP is Hermione's initial lack of respect for the skills and talents of the twins, a view that seemed to soften a little by the end of the book. Hermione has a very rigid view of the world and has trouble accepting that others genuinely may have different priorities. For Hermione, the world revolves around books, tests, grades and academic honors. When Fred and George scoff at Ron for becoming a prefect, she thinks that they are jealous (Ron knows that they are *not*.) She makes disparaging remarks about the type of magical knowledge that the twins have when they are demonstrating the snackboxes in the common room (saying that they only know "flashy" stuff, not about anything really useful.) But she is wrong, I think. The twins are *very* bright and the type of practical magic at which they excel likely will serve them very well in life. Being the most successful test- taker in school does not always translate into being the most successful person in post-school life. (The latter is *not* sour grapes, I am a Hermione-like test-taker myself! :-> ) By the end of OoP, Hermione is less dismissive of Fred and George's magical abilities (and is even somewhat impressed by the vanishing charm that they use with their joke hats!) She still does not approve of their early exit from school or their lack of concern about their exams. I suspect that there may be more development of these issues in the last two books. Elle From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 17:19:42 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:19:42 -0000 Subject: Ron's consolations (was: Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" > > Again, since the one person that constantly keeps supporting him > is > > Hermy (see the Rita Skeeter example for instance), I dare say that > > she has become the closest character to Harry (forget Dumbledore, > > Ron, Lupin, etc.), and the one that really succeeds in helping him > > (let's repeat it : forget Dumbledore ; if you're not convinced > > compare his attitude towards Harry's dreams : who was the wisest, > > Dumbledore - doesn't talk to Harry anymore, asks Snape to give him > > lessons - or Hermione - had Harry followed her advice, Sirius > would > > still be there). I can't say that I agree that Harry and Hermione have become the closest friends. Hermione is a very important person for Harry to have on his side because her level-headedness is a good balance to his quick-to-act nature, but that makes her a great ally not a best friend. In the past (GoF) when Ron and Harry stopped speaking to each other briefly, Harry spent more time with Hermione but admitted that it just wasn't as enjoyable having Hermione as his best friend. I didn't see any signs of that changing in OotP. Harry was pretty awful to everyone, Hermione included. > > Another example seems very intesting to me on the symbolical point > of > > view. Remember with who Hermione was when Ron's triumph as a goal- > > keeper occurred ? A clue, first letter is H... > > That's a bit of a stretch. Remember they didn't want to leave the quidditch match, and Ron was still doing horribly from what they saw (a very painful thing to watch). It was an H than persuaded them both to leave the match, but that H wasn't Harry. I'll give you a clue, it still starts with an H... oh nevermind... It was a bloody, black-eyed, and insistent Hagrid. > > Talking about that makes me think of something that concerns the > > whole scheme of OoP. In this book we see Ron achieving ALL his > goals, > > all his dreams, just as expressed in PS when he was looking in the > > mirror. He becomes a prefect AND plays Quidditch (actually, he is > the > > new star of the G team). Maybe that's the compensation he gets > > throughout OoP, for his dreams become true but at the same time > this > > is made possible at a great cost as Hermione seems to withdraw. > > Well, when it comes down to Ron as a prefect, isn't it Ron who spends more time with Hermione - and Harry who is left out. As a Quidditch player, Ron spends a lot of time in practice, just as Harry did in the previous books. The three-amigos still spend roughly the same amount of time together - we just get to see what Harry and Hermione are up to and it's been nothing romantic IMHO. > > One last thing, it has also been said that Harry and Hermione > would > > have nothing to say if they had a love-affair. This leads me to > add > > two comments : > > a) Same problem (perhaps even worse) with Ron. > > b) Hermione isn't just interested in someone because he or she has > > problems. Even if this was true, she would then find Ron REALLY > > uninteresting and boring. > > > > Quite long, isn't it. Well, see ya ;-) > > > > AAm. If either Harry or Ron were to date Hermione they would of course have loads to talk about. Isn't that a large part of their friendship bond? They can discuss with each other things that they would never discuss with anyone else. > > Good post AAm > I have to admit, even as a ardent R/H shipper(i.e, it's what I > want), the evidence is piling up for a H/H ship, there little to > nothing from Harry yet but it is easy to argue now he is over Cho he > may look again, Hermione's feelings became pretty clear to me in > OOTP, Her reaction to him kissing Cho, Trying to get Harry to spend > a night making hats with her, and dare I say it...Ginny's crush on > Harry evaporating during the summer, when she was with Hermione most > of the time? > > Ron's feelings are clear and the fog around Hermione's is lifting > ever so slighty. Harry is the wild card. > > Seb What if Hermione's reaction to Cho kissing Harry wasn't because she liked him at all (it seemed to lack that emotional charge that was so noticeable in GoF). I think Hermione and Ginny may be in cahoots with each other when it comes to the guys they may like (for arguments sake - Ron & Harry). I remember having those kind of allies at that age - girlfriends who stuck up for me and a guy that I liked even if he didn't show signs of liking me or I gave up on him - and vice versa. Maybe Hermione thinks Harry is better off with Ginny but tries to pretend to be impartial, thus the coldness of her response. Maybe thats why Ginny tries to stop her brother from putting his foot in his mouth in GoF. Was it definitely said that Ginny no longer liked Harry, or was it that Ginny just gave up on the idea of Harry ever liking her. If it's the later then that may explain Hermione's reaction. Harry is still the wild card though - but I think If he really liked someone, we would definitely know. -QoE From lmbolland at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 17:24:01 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:24:01 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix Lestrange & Mrs. Bradley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77144 Just had an "AHA!" moment myself - Gladys Mitchell's http://www.gladysmitchell.com/ infamous psychologist/sleuth Mrs. Bradley's full name is Beatrice Lestrange Bradley. The names are too similar for JKR to not be giving a 'hat tip' to Gladys Mitchell (consciously or subconsciously) but I wonder if there might not be some clues there? There were a lot of bathtub deaths in Gladys Mitchell's mysteries!! Any thoughts? Lauri From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 17:30:21 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:30:21 EDT Subject: Presenting: SILK GOWNS Message-ID: <129.2fb34f2d.2c6d212d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77145 Please be nice, I worked for quite some time (ok, fine, it was only an hour or so, but it FELT like a long time!!) to come up with this. I am, however, open to suggestions for bettering the acronym :) What are SILK GOWNS, you ask? People who believe in the theory of the: Suspiciously Insane Longbottoms, the Key is the Gum Or Wrappers that Neville Saves. You know who you are, out there, you ran back to your other books to find all previous references the Droobles (Best) Blowing Gum, noted the Lucius Malfoy supports St. Mungo's, saw Bode's death as a sign that things *can* be tampered with quite easily in St. Mungo's, and are sure there's a reason Grandma Longbottom mentioned that Neville could paper his wall with the gum wrappers he has from his mum. SILK GOWNS potentially has a lot of canon to support it, and I'm going to try to gather every bit of it and would love contributions! ~RSFJenny From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Thu Aug 14 17:30:59 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:30:59 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and thestrals In-Reply-To: <11a.26ed695e.2c6b1a05@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77146 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pottymouth65 at a... wrote: > "angelberri56" writes: > > > This is just kind of an off-hand thought: > > > > The only people who can see thestrals are people who have > > witnessed death. We find out that Neville can see them because > > he saw his grandfather die, Luna can because of her mother, > > and Harry because of Cedric. But wait! Hagrid can see them, too! > > I wonder who he saw die... was it his father, perhaps? > > > > If anyone has any theories on this matter, please tell me! > > Thanks a lot! > > > I may be wrong but didn't Hagrid witness the death of some giants last > summer? I don't think it states that death/thestrals apply only on > Hogwarts' grounds. > > ~Traci Yes, but Hagrid must have seen them longer. Grubbly-Plank mentioned before his return, that he has trained them not to go after the owls. Therefore he must have seen them. Hickengruendler From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Aug 14 17:35:43 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:35:43 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77147 I am intrigued by the idea of what makes good literature, indeed, what makes anything great. I studied both the Iliad and Odyssey at some length. Both are seen as "great", and yet, there is strong evidence that they are written down versions of oral poems. They are very repetitive, and again and again characters are introduced with the same epithets, just as JKR reinforces her characterisations with repeat descriptions ? horse faced, bony Petunia or Vernon with his throbbing vein in his forehead and purple face. These may be simple characterisations, but they are still very effective. Is great literature then only something which meets standard practices of English and grammar, or is it something more? English is after all evolving all the time. Purists might protest, but I would rather see "they" written down than he/she - It is or it is becoming an acceptable practice. To me, Harry Potter is great because it speak to me and speaks of my time. My favourite pop group is The Beatles. Music critics rubbished their music in the early `60s: it wasn't real music, it was pop, it wasn't classical. Yet, 30 years later, the Beatles are still incredibly popular, but more than that, they are become a classic. Perhaps in 200 years they will still be liked, but they will still be a mouth-piece of their day and I believe that as tastes change, they will have become a "new" classical music. I don't think that Harry Potter is "new" and ground breaking in the way that the Beatles were, but what it does do, is speak to and for our generation. I don't think Harry is great because of its popularity, - that would infer that the Sun newspaper is great because it's the most popular paper in Britain, and I don't think that anyone can really claim greatness by reason of popularity. I think that Harry Potter is great because of the way it has captured the popular imagination, and does strike a chord with young and old alike. A parallel that I can draw, although others might disagree is Lady/Princess Diana. Diana recently came second to Winston Churchill in a poll of "Greatest" Britons. Arguably, what had Diana done? She might have been great with kids, great with the disadvantaged and under privileged, but is that really great compared to the likes of Elizabeth the First and Winston Churchill? Diana had shown herself to be real, some might say even damaged, but both in her life, and in her death she was able to reach out to people. This was her greatness. Perhaps history will forget Diana and Harry, I don't know, but both have reached the national and international conscience in a way that few have paralleled in any field. Ali From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Aug 14 17:36:16 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:36:16 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House-Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Hi Kneasey > Just re-reading your post. You mention a relative speaking to > Tressell just after the book was published. But Tressell never lived > to see his book published. He left the manuscript to his daughter and > it was some years after his death that the book was finally published > (in a much bowlderised form) Perhaps your relative spoke to Kathleen > (the daughter) who was very much her father's confidante. I met her > when she was a very old lady, but still as sharp as a pin. Really? Huh! Unfortunately I can't put my uncle through the third degree, he died 40 years ago (in his late eighties), a die-hard socialist and Trade Unionist to the end. Never knew him to lie, so he either confused the time when the conversation took place, or he confused Tressell with some-one else. However, he was convinced about the motivation behind the book. If it turns out he was having me on, I'll have to go and shout at him through the veil. To make this post valid, I'd better mention something on topic. Do you see Hermione as a Karl Marx figure? She knows what's best for the Elves, absolutely convinced, but she ignores every- thing that they and everyone else says. She is the font of all that is right on this subject. Exactly the way the old monster acted. Alll it needs is for her to inherit some money and have a servant that she doesn't pay for 30 years or so. Kneasy From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 17:38:48 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:38:48 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to be Minister of Magic one day and > Ron will be left far behind her. Me: I think Hermione would make a great MoM, but I really think Ernie McMillan will be one. The way Harry describes him, he sticks out (to me) as a politician, the way he likes hearing himself speak, and how he always makes pompous speeches. James Redmont From brookeshanks at mugglenet.com Thu Aug 14 17:42:07 2003 From: brookeshanks at mugglenet.com (Brooke) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:42:07 -0000 Subject: Petunia?! (formerly Christmas Gifts from Dursleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77150 wrote: I wondered if anyone else had noticed that the Dursleys had sent things to Harry at Hogwarts. I always wondered why the Dursleys ever bothered to send Harry Christmas gifts, knowing how much they despise him, (and how toothpicks and kleenex tissues are hardly worth the effort of sending off even as a joke). Up till now it seemed to me that they just found it amusing to tease Harry with worthless gifts to remind him that he is a thorn in their side. But now that Dumbledore has revealed to Harry why he has to go back to the Durlseys every summer, I am thinking there might have been another reason for the pathetic gifts. Now that we know what magic protects Harry at Privet Drive, I am betting that Petunia had been the one sending the "gifts" to Harry at Christmas. If she had not cared a bit, she would not have even thought of him. But the fact that something was sent to Harry at all, means that he was on her mind (or someone's mind). Petunia has always known that Harry is protected by her presence. Maybe the gifts had magical qualities (because they belonged to a blood relative) that were hidden by their commonplace appearance - convenient for Petunia to send off without attracting any attention. Perhaps she did not know that Harry did not need her protection while he was at Hogwarts... The only problem with this hypothesis is - why would Petunia take care to make sure that Harry remains protected? She obviously knows more than we thought she did. How much does she know? How far would Aunt Petunia go to protect Harry in a crisis? Could her apparent loathing of him ever subside? Any thoughts? -Brookeshanks (who is still hoping for the redemption of Petunia, Dudley, Malfoy OR Snape!) From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 17:42:51 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:42:51 -0000 Subject: Re Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: <3F3ABFF2.000003.40899@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77151 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > Tj > > Me here: Molly is a pet name for Mary. Yes that is a royal name as > well. (ha ha I think :D ) > Me: I agree that it seems they have royal names, but I always thought Molly was named for "mollycoddling"...Rowling even describes her this way in OotP. The two are not exclusive of each other, of course. =) James Redmont From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Aug 14 17:45:50 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:45:50 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House-Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77152 Good point. There is an element of old Karl in Hermione or indeed any other theorist and/or politician who is convinced he knows what is best for us. I would like to have known your uncle. He sounds like my kind of guy. From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 17:50:53 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:50:53 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77153 We know that Dumbledore watches over Harry. We know that he protects him while at the same time must prep him for being "the one" (so to speak). But for all of that... for all of the attention given to a promising student like Harry, where was all that when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts? Is Dumbledore somewhat making ammends (through his actions with Harry) for the attention he didn't give Tom Riddle? Could Dumbledore have made a profound difference in an adolesant young Riddle? I would imagine that it would have. While Dumbledore was not yet the headmaster, it seems that he had more contact with Tom (as a teacher) than most headmasters would. I can't believe that in some fashion, Dumbledore doesn't hold himself partly responsible for failing to recognize or make a difference with Tom Riddle to stop him becoming something abhorrantly evil like Voldemort. If Harry is REALLY supposed to "kill" voldemort with "love" are we then to conclude that he will "save" Tom Riddle with "love"? Either way, this is a pretty profound statement to assert how big of a difference love and attention can make in two similar lives. And why, was Dumbledore inacapable of making a positive difference in the life of Tom Riddle? From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 17:53:43 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:53:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77154 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > > No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to be Minister of Magic one day > > and > > > Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice simple girl to > > > love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. Weasley. > > > > > > Mandy - anticipating a H/R/H triangle that's going to end badly > > but > > > all will be friends in the end. If they all survive. ;-) > > > > Do you honeslty think Ron would care if Hermione was Miinister > > of Magic? Ron will be too busy starting a quidditch little league > > with his kids and 37 red headed nieces and nephews, and he > > doesn't need his wife Hermione at home nagging everyone > > about homework while they're trying to practice. > > > > -> QoE -expecting a R/Hr Ship because the result is bound to be > > hilarious. > > Mandy again: That's just the point Hermione would't be at home, she's > going to be running the country, well the WW at least. And yes Ron > would care. The yongest of 5 brothers and a thirst to prove himself, > Ron has an ego that that would never let him be happy with such an > highly sucessful wife. Ron needs is be the King of his Castle and > like I said before a loving supportive wife who will stay at home and > raise his 10 redheaded kids. That's not to say R/H won't go out but > it would never last. > Mandy expecting Howlers. This is not a howler but rather a soft-spoken disagreement ;0 If Ron truly needs to be King of the castle he will need to make new friends ASAP. If Ron's wife is anything like his mom she will hardly be the submissive supporive type. If Ron does hum 'Wealey is our king' around the house it will probably be a Ralph Kramden situation based on a lot of mouth and not reality. I think Ron will be more like his dad, mellow - taking a job because he likes it. As much as he complains about being poor and not having nice things, he also looks down on Percy who's ambitions come before everything else. Hermione is very goal-oriented and ambitious herself, and like countless other people have posted, I think Ron balances her out. If Hermione is ruling the WW she's going to need someone to remind her that there is life outside of the library. I don't think Ron needs to be the center of the earth, he just needs to achieve greatness in his own mind. Like arthur has his muggle stuff - let Ron have his little league quidditch. Maybe Ron will surprise us all, like with the prefect thing, and he and Hermione will both become aurors. There are so many maybes but again imagine all the R/Hr comedic possibilities. -> QoE - who hopes for a moment where Ron is right and Hermione is wrong for once. That sound like a fun read. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Aug 14 18:08:48 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:08:48 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House-Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77155 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Hi Kneasy. Glad no offence taken, as certainly none meant.I just > hate the idea of one race/class/whatever not only being subseviant to > another race/class/whatever, but actually enjoying it, the poor > saps.This is getting a bit off-topic but I would just ask why you > don't consider destroying Winky in order to achieve your cover-up as > ill-treatment. > Best wishes, Sylvia > P.S. Never had theluck to meet Tressell but I met his daughter. A > very interesting woman. First off, read post 77148. If he weren't already dead, I'd murder my uncle. Now, Winky. Do we agree that 'clothes' is the ultimate punishment so far as an Elf is concerned? And that it is considered suitable for gross dereliction of duty? So far as Crouch was concerned, gross dereliction is putting it mildly for what happened. Winky was charged with guarding his son, who is an escapee from Azkaban, is a DE and has been sheltering in his fathers house for months, if not years. It was only by the persuasion of Winky that B.C.Jr. was at the World Cup. Yet Winky fails in her duty, he gets away, sets off a Dark Mark, riots, muggles attacked and every- one in the family looking at n years in the Azkaban slammer. What would be a suitable chastisement? Clothes. I haven't been able to find any other mention of Crouch ill-treating Winky. Yes, Sirius does go on about it, but if Kreacher had done the same, what would Sirius have done? Probably kill him. After the event, Winky turns into the local wino, but refuses, on all occasions, to hear any criticism of Crouch. Unlike Dobby who regards the Malfoys as bad wizards. Unlike Kreacher who regards Sirius as a traitor. Winky didn't want to be set free, but I can't find any evidence that she thinks Crouch was unjust. If you can, please post. Apart from the heads on the wall at the Black House, I haven't been able to find any Elf deaths mentioned at all. Suspicious? Kneasy From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 18:19:03 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:19:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's Poor Ickle Head In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77156 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > wrote: > > When I first read OP, I wondered if Harry getting hit in the head > > repeatedly might mean anything. It might not mean anything, but didn't > > it seem like poor Harry got smacked in the head quite a bit? > > > > James Redmont --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen" wrote: > Interesting juxtaposition of events... It could also be that Harry > exudes magic when he is stressed and/or hurt. When the Ford Anglia > fell through the Whomping Willow, Harry yelled "REVERSE" and it > did... either the car was sentient at that time or Harry magicked it > out of harm's way. Was he hit on the head by the Whomping Willow? :-) > > Karen Me: I'm rereading OP again, and sure enough, he complains of headaches, through most of the beginning of the book. Especially above his right eye, to be exact. I keep thinking, you know, J.K. Rowling doesn't really write much that isn't important, and she took the time to give poor Harry headaches, not to mention the repeated whacking of his little head. I think he's definitely growing more powerful, since he did wandless magic twice in OP, and with the Whomping Willow, as well. You know what else? I was thinking the other day about how the books are written totally from Harry's point of view. We all think doing the types of magic Harry did as a child is normal for any wizarding child, but maybe Hermione's going to bust out one day with "yeah, my parents thought it was weird when I'd make strange things happen, like the time my kidney beans shivered ever so slightly when I didn't want to eat them", then Harry says, "one time I jumped on the school roof, then one time I turned my teacher's hair blue, then there was the time I grew all my hair back over night...but I'm sure loads of that kind of thing happened to you guys, too!", and everybody just sits around gaping at him. There is definitely somethign going on with Harry! James Redmont From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 18:20:23 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:20:23 -0700 Subject: Hermione the MoM? wasRe: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64516231823.20030814112023@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77157 Hi, Thursday, August 14, 2003, 10:38:48 AM, James wrote: > I think Hermione would make a great MoM, Maybe when she's older and has learned to not offend people as much . Right now she'd bulldozer along, without taking the opinions of her charges into account. How do you become the MoM, anyhow. Is s/he elected? I just can't quite see Hermione be the MoM for long. She doesn't seem to be the politician's type, so far, and smartness alone doesn't keep you in the office long, or get you there in the first place... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 14 18:32:05 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:32:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House (long) References: Message-ID: <002301c36292$64237b20$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 77158 From: Sue Porter <>Me" What teenager in the history of man has been through puberty, family problems, wars or whatever without ever maiking a mistake? Without ever behaving badly? Name me one and I'll accept that JK was wrong in letting Harry behave badly. His problems dont excuse his behaviour, bad behaviour is bad behaviour whatever age and whatever the extenuating circumstances are. Even kids with the best support network do the wrong thing sometimes. They make mistakes, learn from them if they're lucky and move on. I have two teenage boys at home (16 and 13) and I know they dont always do the right thing, their reactions to things I find pretty innocuous, are often dramatic, and vice versa. Misinterpretation of intent and actions is a certainty. at times they feed on the injustice of just being a teenager. Its almost a rite of passage to becoming an adult. Sometimes they behave the way we would expect young adults to behave, and sometimes they dont. The two major differences I see between my boys and Harry, is that my boys have me, plus they are not expected to save the world. Sue _________________ Which was the point I tried to make in the first place :) Harry went through a lot, and expected to have the friendship, support and love of the people he knew when he returned to the WW. What he found was that they had all been having 'fun and adventures' without him, and hidden it from him, to boot. He doesn't act outraged or betrayed, and start making great overblown gestures - he knows that won't get him anywhere - but he is a little hurt and angry, and a little less trusting. So he makes gestures by getting angry, keeping things to himself and telling lies to cover things up, after all, that is what everyone else is doing, right? He gets angry over small things, but lets things like Umbridge's detention slide. He misreads situations because hormonal changes are changing the way people are acting towards each other (like when he is upset that Cho wants to talk about Cedric, but can't understand why she should be upset that he has arranged to meet Hermione). He is making mistakes, sometimes fueled by his hormones, and sometimes by the confusion of no longer being a child, but not an adult. Afterwards, he feels guilty. He needs to listen to advice, but finds it difficult to accept it from authority figures that he sees as flawed and/or treating him like a child, although he hasn't the experience to dispute them, and feels that maybe he can find a better way of his own to do things. Most of the time, he just tries to get by. He can be obnoxious, stoic, brave, lazy, industrious and incredibley thick - all on the same day! So I stand by my original comment 'Just sounds like a normal teenager to me :)' Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Thu Aug 14 18:30:03 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:30:03 -0400 Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Harry's eyes Message-ID: <002101c36292$13eb4980$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 77159 First: This question must have been asked before, but I missed the answer. If the school's hospital has remedies to grow back bones, a plant to bring Miss. Morris back and cures to make H's teeth grow shorter, how come they can't improve eye sight? Even DD wears glasses. What is it about the eyes that they can't get 20/20 vision? If I were LV, all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses - - his weakest point --- and finish him off ( unless Harry is like Luke Skywalker, who has the FORCE with him and can zap attacks blindfolded). Pook Then: > Harry's eyes are his weakest physical point, I'm guessing. > How does this link with Lily? Will she turn out to be his weak point > as well as his greatest source of strength? Or perhaps LV will use > her as Harry weak spot? > I'm enthralled. > Mandy Now: JKR said this at Quickquotes http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1200-readersdigest-boquet.htm " But when Rowling saw young British actor Daniel Radcliffe's screen test, she knew the 11-year-old was perfect for the part. Rowling's quality control is legendary, as is her obsession with accuracy. She's thrilled with Stephen Fry's taped version of the books, outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his vulnerability?" " Hmm. I'll have to think about what that could mean. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Thu Aug 14 18:31:47 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:31:47 -0400 Subject: Fw: [HPforGrownups] Re: Origin of word Muggles Message-ID: <002d01c36292$51d16310$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 77160 - > > Has anyone come up with a theory of where JKR got the > world 'muggles'? This is from Quick Quotes http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/1999/0999-slj-feldman.htm?layout=articleArchive&articleId=CA153024&display=searchResults&stt=001&publication=slj " Most of the words came in my head full-formed and I have to kind of trace them back. And I can only try to speculate to where they came from. I think that I derived "Muggle" [theword wizards use to describe humans without magical powers] from the word "mug," which in Britain means a stupid person or a fellow who's easy to dupe. " Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 18:42:19 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:42:19 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77161 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Pottymouth65 at a... wrote: > > "angelberri56" writes: > > > > > This is just kind of an off-hand thought: > > > > > > The only people who can see thestrals are people who have > > > witnessed death. We find out that Neville can see them because > > > he saw his grandfather die, Luna can because of her mother, > > > and Harry because of Cedric. But wait! Hagrid can see them, too! > > > I wonder who he saw die... was it his father, perhaps? > > > > > > If anyone has any theories on this matter, please tell me! > > > Thanks a lot! > > > > > > I may be wrong but didn't Hagrid witness the death of some giants > last > > summer? I don't think it states that death/thestrals apply only on > > Hogwarts' grounds. > Hickelgruendler: > Yes, but Hagrid must have seen them longer. Grubbly-Plank mentioned > before his return, that he has trained them not to go after the owls. > Therefore he must have seen them. > Geoff: Two possibilities. In GOF, Hagrid tells Harry that his father died during Hagrid's second year at Hogwarts. Did he see his father after his death? Additionally, in POA when Harry overheards the conversation between McGonagall/Fudge/Flitwick/Hagrid in the Thre Broomsticks ("The MArauder's Map" p.153), Hagrid says that he pulled Harry from the ruins of the Potter house after Voldemort's attack just after Lily and James were killed. Does this imply that he must have seen their bodies? From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 18:45:14 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:45:14 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: >Other than a well positioned stake through the heart, > it's > > not as if he can be killed. Where then is the danger? subrosax99: Me: I thought that's what I just said. Driving a stake through Snape's heart would be quite a bit more involved than a simple Avada Kedavra. "K": There are many ways to kill a vampire and I'm sure Voldemort knows those ways. Just because Snape could be a vampire doesn't mean there isn't any danger. subrosax99: Me: Who cares if he has "vampiric qualities"? "K": It would matter if Voldemort and vampiric qualities have something to do with the plot. subrosax99: Why not just be a vampire and forget all that other mess? If VD were a vampire, he'd be immortal, end of story. "K": Well, Voldy does seem to think he is pretty much immortal. GoF/Ch 33 Voldemort: "And then I ask myself, but how could they have believed I would not rise again? They, who knew the steps I took, long ago, to guard myself against mortal death?" What steps did Voldemort take? CoS/18 Dumbledore speaking of Tom Riddle: "He disappeared after leaving the school...traveled far and wide...sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind..." GoF/Ch 33 "Then...four years ago...A wizard --young, foolish, and gullible--wandered across my path in the forest I had made my home. Oh , he seemed the very chance I had been dreaming of...for he was a teacher at Dumbledore's school... This would be Quirrell of course and earlier we see where Quirrell has met up with vampires in a forest. Voldemort has been on a quest for immortality. When one thinks of immortality, one often thinks of vampires. GoF/Ch 33 Voldemort, "The dementors will join us...they are our natural allies...we will recall the banished giants...I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear..." OoP/Ch 5 "Well, firstly, he wants to build up his army again, said Sirius. "In the old days he had huge numbers at his command; witches and wizards...his faithful Death Eaters, a great variety of Dark creatures. You heard him planning to recruit the giants; well, they'll be just one group he's after." Could not vampires be part of the Dark creatures Voldemort will try and recruit? subrosax99: Me: We haven't seen a shred of evidence that Snape's problems are caused by his being a vampire. Hagrid and Lupin do seem to suffer from discrimination due to their "half-breed" status (though how this applies to Lupin I do not understand.) "K": Part of the reason there might not be that much evidence is because we haven't been told yet that Snape is a vampire. Let's face it, after five books we still don't know much about Snape. We don't know where he came from or if he indeed has suffered any discrimination. The HP books do discuss discrimination and why wouldn't vampires be included in that group? We read about them in every book yet are we suppose to believe we won't see them? Who is going to represent the vampires? Who better than Snape? He has been a teacher at Hogwarts for 14 years with no bite marks to any students that we know of. That's a pretty good track record for a vampire . subrosax99: By contrast, Snape seems to get on well with Lucious Malfoy, who seems to be about as snobby as they come in the wizarding world. What we know about Snape from canon suggests far more mundane reasons for his problems. "K" I'm not sure what in canon tells us the reasons for Snape's problems. subrosax99: Me: OK, but I still don't get where this vampire thing comes from. If Snape is in fact a vampire, he's pretty pathetic. "K": How can you say he is pathetic if we have never seen Snape in that form yet? subrosax99: No one in the books is even turning up with bite marks! Please, don't tell me he's living off chickens or something. That's just undignified. "K": Lupin hasn't killed anyone yet and neither has Hagrid. Darn. Aren't they pathetic to what they are? Chickens? Who needs chickens: OoP/Ch 6, in Black's house, an ornate crystal bottle with a large opal set into the stopper, full of what Harry was quite sure was blood. "melclaros" 77111 LOL! AND I still say the whole issue was shut in OoP. If he was a Vampire and ESPECIALLY if he was a Half/Quarter/Eighth/Sixteenth/adinfinitem Vampire UMBRIDGE WOULD HAVE FIRED HIM! "K": Why would she fire him for being a vampire if she doesn't know what he is? Now she did say the teachers backgrounds would be checked and let's see happens after that. What else in OoP shut the door on the vampire theory? "melclaros": Melpomene, sick to DEATH of the Vampire "theory". "K": Then why read the vampire threads? I admit there are theories I don't like that I will peek at every now and then but for the most part (Lily/Snape an exception) I just don't comment on them or I will ignore them. severusbook4 Message 77116 Vampires, unlike werewolves, are civilized, intellegent, and socially minded in most cases. Werewolves, when in their wolf state, cannot control their urges, cannot be reasoned with, or controlled like pets. They are wild and conpletely unpredictable, James and Sirius, in human form, would have been eaten by Lupin if they had tried to reason with Lupin while in his wolf state. Vampires are not the risk that werewolves are. "K": I think this is a good point. We seem willing to excuse Lupin being a werewolf when in fact he can't control what he does in werewolf form and is a danger to all around him. I do love Lupin but it isn't as if he is harmless. If Lupin is going to be shown to be discriminated against because of his furry time of the month, why shouldn't JKR do the same thing for vampires? severusbook4 Severus "she makes me look like an angel" Snape "K" She makes me look pretty good also ;--) From YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com Thu Aug 14 17:08:05 2003 From: YahooGroups at TaprootTech.com (vivamus42) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:08:05 -0000 Subject: Twelve Subjects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77163 Has anyone identified the twelve subjects making up the 12 possible OWLs? (BTW, how could anyone take that many subjects, yet Percy got twelve OWLs? Even Hermione couldn't do that many with a Time Turner.) Classes Everyone Takes: 1. Defense Against the Dark Arts 2. Transfiguration 3. Charms 4. Herbology 5. Potions 6. History of Magic 7. Astronomy Elective Classes: 8. Care of Magical Creatures 9. Divination 10. Arithmancy 11. Muggle Studies 12. The Study of Ancient Runes I can't find reference to any more than that. Is that it, or are there more? Vivamus From christian.miles at lineone.net Thu Aug 14 17:15:36 2003 From: christian.miles at lineone.net (christian) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:15:36 +0100 Subject: Death clues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F3BC3B8.5060201@lineone.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77164 looking on mugglenet today i found a very interesting death clue: " In St. Mungos, when they are going to visit Mr. Weasley- 'They climbed a flight of stairs and entered the "Creature-Induced Injuries" corridor, where the second door on the right bore the words 'DANGEROUS' DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES.' If you put these words on a sign, they would read Creature-Induced Injuries Dangerous Dai Llewellyn Ward Serious Bites Take the first word of each of these and what do you get get? Creature Dangeous Dai Serious? No - Kreacher dangerous, Die Sirius..." very interesting. wow. now we know why it took JK 3 years to complete OotP!!! has anyone found any other clues to future events? Christian Miles :-) From gaspode2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 17:22:48 2003 From: gaspode2002 at yahoo.com (gaspode2002) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:22:48 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" > wrote: > > I certainly hadn't noticed that they are royal names (William, > > Charles etc.)as the names are so common in England. Who exactly is > > King Ronald.? Dont recollect him. Or King Percival either. There > is > > a Molly Queen of the Beggars in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld > > books (Feet of Clay, I think). > > They don't necessarily have to be names of kings and queens. We've > never had a King Albert in the UK, but it was the first name of Queen > Elizabeth's father, who reigned as Goege VI. (It has been a royal > name in Belgium admittedly). > > Percival (or more accurately Percivale) was a Knight of the Round > Table (in Malory at least). Ronald, I must admit, leaves me in the > dark for the moment. Perhaps someone can say "Lumos" for my benefit. > > The thought of Bill as Bilius leave me feeling slightly green [but > not with envy :-)] > > Geoff I think Ronald is a variation if Roland. That may not be a Royal name but it is a heroic, knightly one. Gaspode From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 14 17:28:31 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:28:31 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" wrote: > And while we're on the subject of Umbridge, does anyone familiar with > English law care to guess what the consequences of her midnight > attack > upon Hagrid might be (not to mention the unprovoked attack on > McGonagall in front of many witnesses)? > > Vivamus The wizarding world apparently does not adhere to English common law. The thought of condeming a person to death without offering even any semblence of a trial is very much against the spirit of the common law. That being said I am sure people can pick out times when it happened... But I still think it shows the WW cannot be adhering to the same legal system. As well Harry had a panel of judges which one only usually gets at an appeal level. English Common law requires that the justices be a self-administered body distinguished from the legislative and the executive arms of government. Fudge may repesent the excutive, Arthur's job may represent the legislative since we know he writes laws even if he doesn't pass them. I get the feeling bureaucrats like Arthur write the laws, Fudge's team looks them over and they are sent directly to the Queen for official signing. The problem here is that we've never got a clear picture of how the WW is integrated into the english parlimentary system. It is clear that Fudge is Her Majesty's Minister of Magic. But ordinarily that requires that Fudge would be elected to the house and then selected by the Prime Minister to sit in that position. It could be that Fudge is part of a single magical riding and elected to serve in that praticular position. Or it could be that Fudge is appointed within the Wizaring community and sent to serve as Minister and thus not elected by it. He probably either way does not formally sit in the house. It is hard to imagine that Rowling intends us to believe that the house hears readings on bills like The Muggle Protection Act. One wonders if Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition has a shadow minister of magic. I doubt it. Ordinarily (English style) judical branches are set up as self administering bodies to prevent instances where political goals and bias may influence the work of administering justice. It prevents the e appearances and actuality of bais. England's highest court is the Judicial Commitee of the House of Lords. Distinguished barristers and justices are appointed to sit in the house as Law Lords and oversee cases that are appealed to that House. One wonders if Harry could have taken his case to any other court for an appeal if he had lost. I don't think Rowling has any intricate knowledge of English law beyond what any English person might know. Nor does she seem interested in depicting its idyosyncracies or history. I think it is meant to be evocative of the corrupt nature of the WW's political administration. Kangaroo courts and all that. Injustice happens all the time, but usually people at least get a trial no matter how fake it may be. Harry's trial as well was somewhat slapdash in nature. No traditional formal proceedures were followed. I wondered when I read it if she had ever even seen a trial. There don't appear to be barristers or solicitors in the WW. The trial had none of the trappings of trials, like formal pleadings, writs or presentations of affidavits. Those trappings have always been rather a hallmark of the English legal system. Hallmarks so stunningly lambasted in books like Bleak House. I found Rowling's Wizarding legal system to be bit of a straw man. Golly From coonkell at msu.edu Thu Aug 14 17:47:13 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly M.) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:47:13 -0000 Subject: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" wrote: > Please bear with me here. This is my first totally new post. I > wondered if anyone else had noticed that the Dursleys had sent things > to Harry at Hogwarts. In GOF when he opens his gifts he gets "a > tissue an all time low" from the Dursleys. So my question is how did > it get to Hogwarts? We know the muggle mail does not go to Hogwarts > as it is unplottable. So does Petunia use the owl mail to get it to > him? Which brings up a whole new subject of how much does she > actually know about the Wizerding World? > Sherry Me: That is a very interesting point! This made me think of something else as well. Obviously, the WW doesn't want muggles to know about them. What kind of precautions are taken, if any, for muggle parents who have kids who go to Hogwarts? Are they told to lie to friends about where their child goes to school? -Kelly From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 14 17:53:19 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:53:19 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > I am intrigued by the idea of what makes good literature, indeed, > what makes anything great. Quality - pure and simple. I can't think of any classic novel I have ever read that wasn't well written. The only exception was my great annoyance at the Iilad for repeating itself so often and even given that stylistic idiosyncracy, it had compensations. Even the bible is well written at most points. Job is powerful stuff. The reason we are still reading Alice in Wonderland or the fact that Pride and Prejudice remains one of the top grossing novels of all time is that despite many of their issues being irrelevant (like the limited options for women - Austen and the dead boring school lessons - Carroll) the writing is excellent. Every generation connects with Hamlet because Hamlet is well written. It has insight into being human and we remain as human as ever. Re: the Beatles. Their tunes are still as good as any pop song on the chart as fresh and as singable as ever. But remember it is still too soon to tell if the Beatles will be around in 200 years. We still listen to rock and pop. People who saw the beatles in concert are still functing as a large percentage of the population and the world is not wholly different. Only time will tell if people still connect with HP in a 100 years. Of course many books are good and still go unremembered. HP may be unable to do what the Xmen has been able to do - Its ongoing format, allows its world to remain relevant by reshaping itself for every generation. Its basic themes are relevant but it still needs an updated ever so often. Given the odd way HP is written (with every book being set for the age Harry is) and the prose like warm flat beer (as someone other than I noted), I suspect HP is not destined to be a classic. > A parallel that I can draw, although others might disagree is > Lady/Princess Diana. Diana recently came second to Winston Churchill > in a poll of "Greatest" Britons. Arguably, what had Diana done? She > might have been great with kids, great with the disadvantaged and > under privileged, but is that really great compared to the likes of > Elizabeth the First and Winston Churchill? > > Ali Well poll an idiot get an idiotic answer. Golly From coonkell at msu.edu Thu Aug 14 18:12:51 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly M.) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:12:51 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77169 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" wrote: > We know that Dumbledore watches over Harry. We know that he protects > him while at the same time must prep him for being "the one" (so to > speak). > Is Dumbledore somewhat making ammends (through his actions with > Harry) for the attention he didn't give Tom Riddle? Could Dumbledore > have made a profound difference in an adolesant young Riddle? I would > imagine that it would have. While Dumbledore was not yet the > headmaster, it seems that he had more contact with Tom (as a teacher) > than most headmasters would. snipped... My 2 cents: Well, I think that Dumbledore kept a close eye on Riddle while he was at school, but was he really to know exactly how he would turn out and what he would become? He may feel guilty for not watching Tom more carefully, but I don't think that's the reason he watches over Harry now. He was taking care of Harry to begin with out of need - he didn't think LV was really gone and felt obligated almost to take care of Harry. But we learned in OotP that Dumbledore is watching over Harry now because he cares about him so much....maybe too much. Maybe Dumbledore didn't feel this sort of affection towards Tom while he was at Hogwarts - he didn't have a need to. -Kelly From redfish5 at onetel.com Thu Aug 14 18:14:06 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:14:06 -0000 Subject: Ron's consolations (was: Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77170 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > Harry is still the wild card though - but I think If he really liked > someone, we would definitely know. > That's a good point, it is pointless arguing what harry's feelings are and trying to guess them from the canon because we KNOW what Harry is Feeling(I know I'm stating an obvious point) . If he felt anything romantically at all towards, we would know in a flash. "sebfish" From keltobin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 18:22:57 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:22:57 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77171 Hickengruendler wrote: > Yes, but Hagrid must have seen them longer. Grubbly-Plank mentioned > before his return, that he has trained them not to go after the owls. > Therefore he must have seen them. I think that a person of Hagrid's age (I believe around 65 or so? according to timelines) could be witness to a number of deaths. I didn't take this to be very unusual or a clue in any way because of his age. Also, Hagrid has lived through the last "war," so there is a good chance he saw friends/ colleagues die at that time. On a side note, do the deaths have to be human? Hagrid is game keeper, and as such most likely has witnessed any number of creature deaths. I don't have book 1 with me but I seem to remember him mentioning the possibility of putting down the unicorn if it was in pain? In this light, he may have been responsible for any number of mercy deaths in the forrest. Kelly From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 18:38:54 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:38:54 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77172 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > This is not a howler but rather a soft-spoken disagreement ;0 > > If Ron truly needs to be King of the castle he will need to make > new friends ASAP. If Ron's wife is anything like his mom she will > hardly be the submissive supporive type. If Ron does hum > 'Wealey is our king' around the house it will probably be a Ralph > Kramden situation based on a lot of mouth and not reality. > > I think Ron will be more like his dad, mellow - taking a job > because he likes it. As much as he complains about being poor > and not having nice things, he also looks down on Percy who's > ambitions come before everything else. Hermione is very > goal-oriented and ambitious herself, and like countless other > people have posted, I think Ron balances her out. If Hermione is > ruling the WW she's going to need someone to remind her that > there is life outside of the library. > > I don't think Ron needs to be the center of the earth, he just > needs to achieve greatness in his own mind. Like arthur has his > muggle stuff - let Ron have his little league quidditch. Maybe Ron > will surprise us all, like with the prefect thing, and he and > Hermione will both become aurors. There are so many maybes > but again imagine all the R/Hr comedic possibilities. > > -> QoE - who hopes for a moment where Ron is right and > Hermione is wrong for once. That sound like a fun read. I also am not sending a howler, but wish to remind folks of one fact: JKR has said that a Weasley will die. My leading candidates are, in order of my perception of probability, Ron, Molly and Percy. Before I get into discussing why I think these the likeliest candidates, let me just point out that though JKR has also said that she sees more "chemistry" between Ron and Hermione, a permanent R-H relationship can't happen if he's dead, BUT there is lots of room for a triangle that could get interesting. Also, I think the theme of how to deal with a relationship that contains a considerable amount of both grief and guilt (a la Harry and Cho) is likely to reappear. If Ron dies, regardless of what has happened among the three of them, Harry and Hermione will be left devastated, and with only each other understanding just how devastating it is for both of them. Thus, unlike with Harry and Cho, regardless of any guilt felt by the two survivors, they would not be able to simply lose interest and walk away from each other. Now, as for WHY I think Ron, Molly and Percy the leading candidates for dead Weasley, it isn't exactly on topic in this thread, so I apologize here and now. In the chapter "Mrs. Weasley's Woes," when Harry walks in on her with the Bogart, it is RON who is first lying there. So, of the family members that she fears the death of, Ron is the one whose death she most fears ... at least of the bodies we are shown. If Ron really does achieve his dream of being captain of the house quidditch team, head boy and winning the cup comes true (which thus far there is every indication of happening), he will have become the "best and brightest" Weasley, which we also know he aspires to. This would make his death still more devastating to his family, and to his mother. All this fits in well with JKR's pattern of showing life realistically, and we all know that not all our heroes come home from wars. It is often the best and brightest who die ... and heroically. Mrs. Weasley comes in second because it is she who fears so much the deaths of the others, and thus is most likely to try most desperately to save any one of them she sees in imminent peril. I can see her unthinkingly and unflinchingly sacrificing herself for her children, her husband and even for Harry, who was, after all, one of the dead bodies the Bogart transformed into. Percy is one of the Weasleys we didn't see, but as he is now at odds with his family, it could well be that we would have seen his body, had Harry opened the door sooner. Why? Think back to the World Cup and Molly's reaction upon the family's return home. It was Fred and George that she went to first, and that because she felt so guilty about having been cross with them before they had left. If the bad feelings between Percy and his parents (and particularly Molly) are not resolved soon, it could be a pretty permanent rift, and thus all the more painful for Molly should Percy die. He has also alligned himself most firmly with forces NOT favorable to Dumbledore's and the rest of the Weasley's views regarding good, evil, etc., making reconciliation (after the bitter row he had with his father) both more difficult and less likely. There are other Weasleys, and reasons for each to die, but these are the most persuasive arguements to me ... So what do others think? "Richard" From miss_america_03 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 18:48:12 2003 From: miss_america_03 at yahoo.com (miss_america_03) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:48:12 -0000 Subject: MALFOY and HARRY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77173 Does anyone other than myself believe that Malfoy and Harry will make amends? I few of my other "predictions" for coming books are: *Wormtail will give his life for Harry's because of the life pact they made in book 3 *Harry will learn more about his parents *Kreacher becomes a grave danger for the order *Snape will NOT be a vampire *If anyones the traitor i believe Lupin will probably be it, no reasons why tho *Harry will be an animagus and fight Voldemort like that *Nevilles parents will become ok *S.P.E.W will finally see some closure (I hope... its rather annoying) Thanks!! *Winky* From miss_america_03 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 18:52:33 2003 From: miss_america_03 at yahoo.com (miss_america_03) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 18:52:33 -0000 Subject: Presenting: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: <129.2fb34f2d.2c6d212d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77174 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > Please be nice, I worked for quite some time (ok, fine, it was only an hour > or so, but it FELT like a long time!!) to come up with this. I am, however, > open to suggestions for bettering the acronym :) > > What are SILK GOWNS, you ask? > People who believe in the theory of the: > > Suspiciously > Insane > Longbottoms, the > Key is the > > Gum > Or > Wrappers that > Neville > Saves. > *Snip Snip* Where does it refer to Silk gowns in the canon? just wondering Its a very neat anagram but I dont believe JKR would think that much into it.. just doesnt seem that way to me Thanks From kodiak6of9 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 18:54:10 2003 From: kodiak6of9 at yahoo.com (Michaela Ross) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 11:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814185410.33062.qmail@web42003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77175 lupinwolf2001 wrote: We know that Dumbledore watches over Harry. We know that he protects him while at the same time must prep him for being "the one" (so to speak). But for all of that... for all of the attention given to a promising student like Harry, where was all that when Tom Riddle was at Hogwarts? Is Dumbledore somewhat making ammends (through his actions with Harry) for the attention he didn't give Tom Riddle? Could Dumbledore have made a profound difference in an adolesant young Riddle? I would imagine that it would have. While Dumbledore was not yet the headmaster, it seems that he had more contact with Tom (as a teacher) than most headmasters would. I can't believe that in some fashion, Dumbledore doesn't hold himself partly responsible for failing to recognize or make a difference with Tom Riddle to stop him becoming something abhorrantly evil like Voldemort. If Harry is REALLY supposed to "kill" voldemort with "love" are we then to conclude that he will "save" Tom Riddle with "love"? Either way, this is a pretty profound statement to assert how big of a difference love and attention can make in two similar lives. And why, was Dumbledore inacapable of making a positive difference in the life of Tom Riddle? It was said that Dumbledore "saw through" Tom, maybe he knew all along that he was destined for evil. Michaela From keltobin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:01:07 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:01:07 -0000 Subject: Twelve Subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" wrote: > Has anyone identified the twelve subjects making up the 12 possible > OWLs? (BTW, how could anyone take that many subjects, yet Percy got > twelve OWLs? Even Hermione couldn't do that many with a Time Turner.) > > Vivamus I was thinking that you would receive an OWL for the written and the practical. That would make a total of 6 courses with written and practical passes in each to receive 12 OWLs. Kelly From carlpelleg at aol.com Thu Aug 14 19:06:04 2003 From: carlpelleg at aol.com (arcturusfelire) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:06:04 -0000 Subject: The Killing Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "M.Clifford" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcturusfelire" > wrote: > > I have been a member of this group for a while now but I haven't > had any questiones or any thoughts to add. Well now I do. snip > Valky replies: > I always relate the matter of killing to a story I was told about my > Grandfather when I was younger. > He was a sharp shooter by trade he performed it for entertainment and > travelled the world with his wife and daughter (my mother) performing > skill shots with rifles and bow and arrow. > Being so skilled with a rifle he was also valuable to the English > army during his years of service in the Second World war. He served > as a sniper. He did this for a long time and one could imagine what > kind of shooting he was required to do. > He left service discharged honourably not long before the war ended. > The story he brought back with him about killing people is harrowing. > I was told that for him the most profound feeling that he had after > sniping someone was the feeling of having taken something from them. > If you take someone's possession from them you may feel some remorse > and want to return it to them, he said the thing about taking a life > is that you can't give it back. For my Grandfather it was a > revelation of his authority and control in the world. It humbled him > and he would say that is the realisation of the authority of man. > Knowing this is how we know the difference between us and the divine > and he said it made him realise that as a man he had no authority to > give someone back life and so no authority to take one from anyone. > > For me the unforgivable nature of a killing curse is explained in > this story. Hence and answer to any use of it as a death penalty for > crime. But not an answer to your question about euthanasia. > Not so sure about that one. Hi Valky On a personal level that is so true. It is also something that is very heart warming to hear. But I must say it doesn't apply directly to society. Without insult (cause what you said is something that is needed to be rememberd) a number of nations within this world have the death penalty (I know the United States does, where I live) so in some cases its not illegal (or unforgivable) to kill. Not to mention if Harry used the Killing Curse on Voldemort do think that action is unforgivable. I do not thing so. Anyway, thankyou for your post. It is something I will remember as in real life it is something to think about. CarlPelleg From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:12:08 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:12:08 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77178 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly M." wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" > wrote: > > We know that Dumbledore watches over Harry. We know that > he protects > > him while at the same time must prep him for being "the one" > (so to > > speak). > > Is Dumbledore somewhat making ammends (through his > actions with > > Harry) for the attention he didn't give Tom Riddle? Could > Dumbledore > > have made a profound difference in an adolesant young > Riddle? I would > > imagine that it would have. While Dumbledore was not yet the > > headmaster, it seems that he had more contact with Tom (as a > teacher) > > than most headmasters would. > snipped... > > My 2 cents: > Well, I think that Dumbledore kept a close eye on Riddle while he > was at school, but was he really to know exactly how he would > turn out and what he would become? He may feel guilty for not > watching Tom more carefully, but I don't think that's the reason > he watches over Harry now. > > He was taking care of Harry to begin with out of need - he didn't > think LV was really gone and felt obligated almost to take care of > Harry. But we learned in OotP that Dumbledore is watching over > Harry now because he cares about him so much....maybe too > much. > > Maybe Dumbledore didn't feel this sort of affection towards Tom > while he was at Hogwarts - he didn't have a need to. > > -Kelly While I certainly understand the "Dumbledore has an affinity for Harry becuase he has come to care for him since he has needed him" perspective... I just don't think that says TOO much about Dumbledore. IF Dumbledore is having trouble differentiating between his obligation to the greater good and his emotion as it applies to Harry (and his happiness) it suggests that he is subject to being swayed emotionally. Is it as "simple" as he likes Harry more than he likes Tom? Is it as complex as he has "grown" to love Harry because he has been forced to be part of his life due to his role in Voldemort's demise? IF so, what if Dumbledore HAD shown Tom Riddle this same affection/attention... would there have ever been a Voldemort? Are these some of the mistakes that Dumbledore is alluding to in the end of OOTP? From kodiak6of9 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:06:54 2003 From: kodiak6of9 at yahoo.com (Michaela Ross) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 12:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia?! (formerly Christmas Gifts from Dursleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814190654.33048.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77179 Brooke wrote: wrote: I wondered if anyone else had noticed that the Dursleys had sent things to Harry at Hogwarts. I always wondered why the Dursleys ever bothered to send Harry Christmas gifts, knowing how much they despise him, (and how toothpicks and kleenex tissues are hardly worth the effort of sending off even as a joke). Up till now it seemed to me that they just found it amusing to tease Harry with worthless gifts to remind him that he is a thorn in their side. But now that Dumbledore has revealed to Harry why he has to go back to the Durlseys every summer, I am thinking there might have been another reason for the pathetic gifts. Now that we know what magic protects Harry at Privet Drive, I am betting that Petunia had been the one sending the "gifts" to Harry at Christmas. If she had not cared a bit, she would not have even thought of him. But the fact that something was sent to Harry at all, means that he was on her mind (or someone's mind). Petunia has always known that Harry is protected by her presence. Maybe the gifts had magical qualities (because they belonged to a blood relative) that were hidden by their commonplace appearance - convenient for Petunia to send off without attracting any attention. Perhaps she did not know that Harry did not need her protection while he was at Hogwarts... The only problem with this hypothesis is - why would Petunia take care to make sure that Harry remains protected? She obviously knows more than we thought she did. How much does she know? How far would Aunt Petunia go to protect Harry in a crisis? Could her apparent loathing of him ever subside? Any thoughts? Maybe secretly she does have feelings for Harry, but since she seemed to despise her sister for being a witch she couldn't show it. Like Snape, I think he secretly respects Harry. Michaela From carlpelleg at aol.com Thu Aug 14 19:10:25 2003 From: carlpelleg at aol.com (arcturusfelire) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:10:25 -0000 Subject: The Killing Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77180 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Me1is" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcturusfelire" > wrote: snip > > Wow - it's hard not to respond emotionally to this post, but I guess > it depends on the culture you are bought up in. In Australia is is > completly illegal and unforgiving to kill for any reason. You are > most definitly NOT allowed to kill for medical reasons, and there is > no death penalty for criminals so you can't kill for legal reasons > either. > > So what I'm saying is that the fact that the curse simply kills a > person is MORE than enough to make it unforgivable. > > I do see what you are saying though - if you live in a country where > it is legal to kill for certain reasons, I'm sure (hypothetically) > that the Avada Kedavra curse could be used. I live in the United States and we have the death penalty in many states (my home state included). And as you said we are shaped by our society and thus what is right and wrong. Because of where I come from I do not think that justifiable killing is unforgivable. That means that the soldiers in armies are all bad people cause they shot their enemies. This is not something I agree with. Now, in Harry Potter I see the killing curse as something more than just killing the body. Cause I would think that their are other spells out there that can stop the heart, something else must happen in this case. We probablly will never know. Thanks for your response it has made me think. CarlPelleg From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:16:28 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:16:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20030814185410.33062.qmail@web42003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michaela Ross > > > It was said that Dumbledore "saw through" Tom, maybe he knew all along that he was destined for evil. > > Michaela Hi Michaela, That would Definetely be in direct contrast to Dumbledore's whole expression that choices are what defines us... not destiny. Really the entire nature of the books are based on the principal that we are our choices and actions not our heritage or upbringing. A shining example of this is the attention (or lack there of in Riddle's case) given to an orphaned child. One chose a dark path, one has chosen a lighter one. I can't help but think that Dumbledore doesn't see that if done all over again HIS choices could have made a profound difference. That said, if Dumbledore did "see through Tom" and held him accountable for actions that he had not performed, then he is the biggest fraud of all! From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:21:16 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:21:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and how he knew about Ginny's possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > > Also remember in GOF there was a wasp in the room when Harry and > > Hermione were practicing spells. I dont remember the page number > but > > I stood out as I read GOF again. > > IMO the wasp is significant but I am not sure if the wasp is DD or > > maybe a DE, possibly Lucious Malfoy. Yeah, Lucious Malfoy is out > > there, and I connect the wasp to him because in OOtP, the wasp is > > buzzing around about the time Harry falls asleeps and sees LV and > > Sirius. I am thinking the wasp told LV that Harry is most > vulnerable > > at this point so LV and get into his mind. > > Fran > > > Hey, how about Ludo Bagman? He has all the wasp imagery around him > with the Wimbourne Wasps and his robe. Don't know what he'd be doing > spying on HRH, unless he's ESE!Bagman, as theorized in Fantastic > Posts....Ariadne Me again: That really fits doesn't it! In GOF, he was always in his Wilbourne wasp unifrom. He had bet on Harry to win the Triwizards Tournement, so it would make since to see him as a wasp checking on Harry. Winky also said Bagman was a bad wizard. He was tried for passing info to DE's. Although he comes across as a bumble, and many poeple comment on how dumb he is, could this be a clever coverup? Think about hte wasp hovering around when Harry is taking the OWL's....If it wasn't significant why did JKR put it in the book. IMO, after your enlightening post, I would say Bagmans back on LV's side. He may be the betrayer everyone is looking for. Fran From eberte at vaeye.com Thu Aug 14 19:24:32 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:24:32 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77183 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Only time will tell if people still connect with HP in a 100 years. > Of course many books are good and still go unremembered. HP may be > unable to do what the Xmen has been able to do - Its ongoing format, > allows its world to remain relevant by reshaping itself for every > generation. Its basic themes are relevant but it still needs an > updated ever so often. > > Given the odd way HP is written (with every book being set for the > age Harry is) and the prose like warm flat beer (as someone other > than I noted), I suspect HP is not destined to be a classic. > > Me: I disagree. To my mind, the HP series is in a class by itself-- particularly if one is viewing it as "children's literature". It is easily as well-written as the LOTR and the Narnia series (at least 50 year "classics", I would argue.) The best parts of the series are as cleverly written as parts of Jane Austin's work. I think that the series will be popular 50 years from now. As to whether it will be deemed a "classic" by the academic-powers-that-be on the order of a Shakespeare play, I suspect that its very popularity and accessibility will work against it on that front. Elle (who *strongly* disagrees that JKR's prose is like "warm flat beer" but has not had time to read all the ranting back and forth on that particular thread) From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Thu Aug 14 19:25:35 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:25:35 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: <20030814151517.86530.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- aamonn2000 wrote: > > > > > Mandy wrote : "No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to > > be Minister of > > Magic one day and > > > Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice > > simple girl to > > > love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. > > Weasley." > > > > I agree with you on that one. After all, Hermione, > > as you just said > > could well end up becoming the new minister of magic > > while Harry, at > > the same time, would become the new Dumbledore > > (after his killing by > > VD ?), following after him to the charge of Howart's > > director. > > Rowling may have stated that Harry was not to become > > a Hogwart > > teacher, but (to my knowledge) she didn't say that > > he couldn't be > > the school's director... Just a thought. > > Bye. > > > > AAm. > > > > Well, I find it highly offensive. No one thinks > anything of a man being great and significant and > having a wife who is either a helpmate or has a much > less glamorous job. But if it's the otherway around > there's a problem? > > > Rebecca > > ===== HERE HERE AND HIP HORAY, I AGREE WITH REBECCA. I DON'T SEE WHY RON WOULD BE UPSET IF HERMIONE WAS M.O.M., GOODNESS, I THINK THAT RON WOULD BE SHOCKED IF SHE WASN'T M.O.M. That having been said I do think that Ron wouldn't care what she did as long as he was doing what he wanted (play quiditch, eat, play quiditch). Why can't Hermione have a husband that is not as powerful, or famous? Happness has very little to do with either of those things. Happness comes from doing what is enjoyable to oneself. Happness rarely has anything to do with a balance of equals, it has more to do with a balance of *respect* of one another. Which r/h do show once in a great while. Harry is better at it, than both Ron and Hermione. But, that's antoher post.. Ta ta.. Tj From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Aug 14 19:32:18 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:32:18 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House-Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77185 OK, I guess I'll have to give you Winky. To be honest, I'd forgotten just how much mayhem she actually set in motion, so I suppose she deserved what she got. She's sad though, isn't she? Naturally, she wont hear any criticism of Crouch. Apart from her (quite deserved) guilt, it goes against the ingrained nature of house-elves to speak against their masters. Even that dangerous red Dobbie feels it necessary to punish himself if he lets slip a word that could tell against the Malfoys. Perhaps I'm a bit hard on the elves. It's just that I find something a bit Uriah Heep-like about them. Absolutely agree about the heads on the wall in the Black House. The whole premise is so utterly horrible. I also agree with people who think that we are going to learn a lot more about the elves in the last two books. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 14 19:37:38 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:37:38 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77186 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellejir" wrote: > Me: > I disagree. To my mind, the HP series is in a class by itself-- > particularly if one is viewing it as "children's literature". It is > easily as well-written as the LOTR and the Narnia series (at least 50 > year "classics", I would argue.) The best parts of the series are as > cleverly written as parts of Jane Austin's work. I have to disagree. There is no way JKR can remotely come close to the power of writers like Tolkien and Austen, nor is she anywhere near as literate as Lewis. "Warm flat beer" is not too bad as a description; I enjoy a lot of things about the HP books (the first 4 especially), the tricky plotting, the red herrings, the clever windup tying all the loose ends together, the energy, the humour. But literary style would come somewhere near the bottom of the list. She's like Agatha Christie - a great read, but not a literary master craftsman. I think that the > series will be popular 50 years from now. I think it depends on how well she finishes the series. Another volume like OotP would finish off a lot of the enthusiasm for HP. But a good conclusion would probably establish it as a mid- level "classic". Wanda From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:40:47 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:40:47 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77187 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" > wrote: > They have *always* been friendly and except for DD, who Snape is > > deferential to (grammar police on the way) and who treats Snape > like > > an annoyance at best--garbage at worst, she's really the only one > who > > seems to have any sort of camaraderie with SS that we are privvy > to. > "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > Do you really think Dumbledore thinks so little of Snape? I think > he's rather protective of Snape - he never lets Harry get away with > just calling him by his last name, he always makes a point of > correcting him, and reminding Harry that it's *Professor* Snape. He > does countermand him sometimes, and at the end of PoA he ends up > making him look foolish, but honestly, Snape can be IMPOSSIBLE > sometimes! I don't think it's inconsistent that Dumbledore can feel > concern and even affection for his prickly Potions Master, while > being perfectly aware of his faults and limitations. > Wanda Laura: Wanda, I agree with you. Even in the PoA scene when Snape has his meltdown, DD is gentle. He knows exactly what's going on, which is why he tells Fudge that Snape has just suffered a severe disappointment. And he leaves it at that-to go into detail would not only compromise Sirius, it would embarrass Snape. At the end of GoF, he is one of the 2 teachers DD trusts to deal with the crisis after Harry returns from the cemetery. And he trusts Snape, which he says repeatedly, despite numerous challenges. Up until his utter mishandling of Harry in OoP, DD showed himself to be remarkably compassionate and understanding of everyone at Hogwarts. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:47:43 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:47:43 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" wrote: > > Umbridge was described in the Daily Prophet as "totally > revolutionizing the Defense Against the Dark Arts," when whe was > doing > her level best to suppress it altogether. At the end of the book, > she ran off, apparently in control of her faculties, and probably not > totally disgraced. > > What I'm wondering is, even though she did nothing in class but tell > them to read a textbook which was obviously on NOT doing DADA, the > Prophet said that she was revolutionizing the subject, and the > students in her class probably did better on their OWLs than students > have in many years. All as a result of Harry and the DA, of course, > but that won't be public knowledge. > > So, I'm wondering if Umbridge will be lifted up as some kind of hero, > teaching the Hogwarts students so bravely and so successfully when > Voldemoort was secretly building his forces, etc., etc., (throw up > when you need to), and working behind the scenes for the Ministry to > finally run V to ground. Makes it look to the general wizarding > public like Fudge was more successful than he really was, doesn't it? > > I wonder if we'll see some kind of redemption of Umbridge in the > Prophet, based on her obvious gifts as a DADA teacher. > > Here's another thought: U seems to be very loyal to the MoM, but she > is also a loathsome toad of a petty beaurocrat, who exists to play > climbing power games. IF she gets redeemed, what if she uses that > newfound popularity to unseat Fudge and take his place? > > Wouldn't that be a fascinating and horrible turn of events? > > Vivamus Laura: No, no, please no! Now that I've taken a deep calming breath...I don't see this happening. Bureaucracies tend to bury their mistakes and then act like they never happened. So I think Umbridge is history. And now that the entire WW knows for sure that VL is back, Fudge is also seriously compromised. If he's smart, Fudge will step down before he's thrown out. And not a moment too soon. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:56:26 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:56:26 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77189 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" > wrote: > > > > > Umbridge was described in the Daily Prophet as "totally > > revolutionizing the Defense Against the Dark Arts," when whe was > > doing > > her level best to suppress it altogether. At the end of the book, > > she ran off, apparently in control of her faculties, and probably > not > > totally disgraced. > > > > What I'm wondering is, even though she did nothing in class but > tell > > them to read a textbook which was obviously on NOT doing DADA, the > > Prophet said that she was revolutionizing the subject, and the > > students in her class probably did better on their OWLs than > students > > have in many years. All as a result of Harry and the DA, of > course, > > but that won't be public knowledge. > > > > So, I'm wondering if Umbridge will be lifted up as some kind of > hero, > > teaching the Hogwarts students so bravely and so successfully when > > Voldemoort was secretly building his forces, etc., etc., (throw up > > when you need to), and working behind the scenes for the Ministry > to > > finally run V to ground. Makes it look to the general wizarding > > public like Fudge was more successful than he really was, doesn't > it? > > > > I wonder if we'll see some kind of redemption of Umbridge in the > > Prophet, based on her obvious gifts as a DADA teacher. > > > > Here's another thought: U seems to be very loyal to the MoM, but > she > > is also a loathsome toad of a petty beaurocrat, who exists to play > > climbing power games. IF she gets redeemed, what if she uses > that > > newfound popularity to unseat Fudge and take his place? > > > > Wouldn't that be a fascinating and horrible turn of events? > > > > Vivamus > > Laura: > > No, no, please no! > > Now that I've taken a deep calming breath...I don't see this > happening. Bureaucracies tend to bury their mistakes and then act > like they never happened. So I think Umbridge is history. And now > that the entire WW knows for sure that VL is back, Fudge is also > seriously compromised. If he's smart, Fudge will step down before > he's thrown out. And not a moment too soon. Umbridge will be lucky if she doesn't end up in Azkaban for setting the dementors on Harry and Dudley, in full view of muggles. I know no muggles saw the dementors, but still it happened in the middle of a muggle neiborhood. She had no written order or authorization to do so, so she must have broken a few laws. Severus "She is more evil than I" Snape From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 20:03:55 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:03:55 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: > > Two possibilities. In GOF, Hagrid tells Harry that his father died > during Hagrid's second year at Hogwarts. Did he see his father after > his death? > > Additionally, in POA when Harry overheards the conversation between > McGonagall/Fudge/Flitwick/Hagrid in the Thre Broomsticks ("The > MArauder's Map" p.153), Hagrid says that he pulled Harry from the > ruins of the Potter house after Voldemort's attack just after Lily > and James were killed. Does this imply that he must have seen their > bodies? Me: J.K. Rowling said you had to digest a death, which to me implies it's more than simply witnessing a person dying, since Harry more than likely saw his mom die, but didn't see the thestrals until after Cedric's death, which was much more traumatic for him because he was older. Now as far as Hagrid goes, he was probably with his dad when he died, if not at the exact moment, I'm sure he went home for the funeral and stuff. Beyond that, he was in the Order the first time around...he probably saw tons of death. Plus he *is* in his 60's, so he's been around a while...more than likely he's gone through lots of deaths in his lifetime. James Redmont From rredordead at aol.com Thu Aug 14 20:09:10 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:09:10 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: <20030814151517.86530.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77191 Mandy said: "No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to be Minister of Magic one day and Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice simple girl to love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. Weasley." AAm said: I agree with you on that one. After all, Hermione, as you just said could well end up becoming the new minister of magic while Harry, at the same time, would become the new Dumbledore (after his killing by VD ?), following after him to the charge of Howart's director. Rowling may have stated that Harry was not to become a Hogwart teacher, but (to my knowledge) she didn't say that he couldn't be the school's director... Just a thought. Bye. Rebecca Said: Well, I find it highly offensive. No one thinks anything of a man being great and significant and having a wife who is either a helpmate or has a much less glamorous job. But if it's the otherway around there's a problem? Me again: I don't think either of us is saying that a man supporting a womam who is in power is a problem. I know I'm not at all, although I can't honestly speak for AAm. I just don't believe it is something Ron Weasley is capable of. But the are many more Wizards and Muggle men in the sea and I trust Hermione to pick a good one who will support her great ambitions. Mandy From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:10:02 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:10:02 -0000 Subject: Paintings vs. Photos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77192 o_caipora asked: > > Are there any examples of painting of living persons in the books? Actually, yes. There is a portrait of Harry, painted by Dobby, but we haven't heard it speak yet. I'm guessing it will become important in a future book. Was there a portrait of Lockhart somewhere, or is that movie contamination? Again, no speach, though. As I think of it, we don't know that those in the portraits we have seen are dead, do we? We just assume so because the subjects are usually old and revered. I know I haven't helped at all, but I did want to address your question. Constance Vigilance From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:10:42 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Family? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814201042.182.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77193 Mandy wrote: > Does anyone else out there wonder if Dumbledore has > or had any > family? He seems to be a wonderful man and I'd be > surprised if he > was not married at some point. Mandy, I was thinking just that the other day when I read a post saying that he was around 150 years old. Surely, he's been married at least once. If not, that's a very lonely way to spend that many years--alone. If he had a wife or children maybe they were killed in the first war. Perhaps JKR will enlighten us into his past. Since the books are thorough Harry's POV, you'd think he'd be curious and ask Dumbledore. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Aug 14 20:13:55 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:13:55 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House-Elves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77194 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > OK, I guess I'll have to give you Winky. To be honest, I'd forgotten > just how much mayhem she actually set in motion, so I suppose she > deserved what she got. She's sad though, isn't she? Naturally, she > wont hear any criticism of Crouch. Apart from her (quite deserved) > guilt, it goes against the ingrained nature of house-elves to speak > against their masters. Even that dangerous red Dobbie feels it > necessary to punish himself if he lets slip a word that could tell > against the Malfoys. Perhaps I'm a bit hard on the elves. It's just > that I find something a bit Uriah Heep-like about them. > Absolutely agree about the heads on the wall in the Black House. The > whole premise is so utterly horrible. I also agree with people who > think that we are going to learn a lot more about the elves in the > last two books. There have been so many postings going waaaaay back about Elves, with theories galore. Everything from magical contracts to not being what we would consider a traditional elf, but a Scottish Brownie instead, which is very different. In the past I've postulated that it's all Tolkiens' fault. Until LotR Elves were traditionally nasty little beasties, spiteful and causing birth defects and cattle disease; but he made them noble and beautiful; can't think why. They're not my favourite creatures, either. Uriah Heap is a paragon of upright independence by comparison. Almost makes one think of Disney (*spit*). As a dedicated blood, thunder and wholesale slaughter enthusiast, I keep hoping the Goblins will discover that they are good eating and remove them from the plot - saving of course the Guide to Multi-Species Gourmet Cuisine by Honey Bastings. "Right Dobby, stick this apple in your gob and hop in the oven." "Oh yes! Harry Potter is so wise and powerful!" "Regulo five, I think. Give us a shout when you're done." Ah, happy dreams. Kneasy From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:14:20 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:14:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape adopt Harry/Legal age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814201420.81418.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77195 "klra2ra" wrote: > > > > "...Snape, of course, would no sooner let them > play games in class > > than adopt Harry." > > > > Any hidden meanings? I haven't given it a whole > lot of thought, but > I > > thought I would run it past the "reading too much > into things" > > experts :) and see if anyone thought this was one > of those offhand > > remarks that might mean something in the future. > > Melpomene wrote: > Considering that "next year" Harry will be of legal > age and therefore > in no need of adoption,I'd say no. No hidden > meanings. > Buttercup: I thought 18 was the legal age of adulthood. Is it 16 in the UK? ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 20:23:44 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:23:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > Percy is one of the Weasleys we didn't see, but as he is now at odds > with his family, it could well be that we would have seen his body, > had Harry opened the door sooner. Me: Why does everybody keep saying that?? P. 176, U.S. version: "No!" Mrs. Weasley moaned. "No...riddikulus! Riddikulus! RIDDIKULUS!" Crack. Dead twins. Crack. Dead Percy. Crack. Dead Harry... Honestly... James Redmont From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:25:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:25:52 -0000 Subject: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thetruthisoutthere_13" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spinelli372003" > wrote: > > So does Petunia use the owl mail to get it to him? Which brings > > up a whole new subject of how much does she actually know about > > the Wizerding World? > > Sherry > -kg > > I always assumed that the Harry sent a note to the Dursley's with > Hedwig, and then Hedwig waited for a few minutes to Petunia/Vernon > to write a response, ...edited... > > -kg bboy_mn: I always assumed that Hedwig, of her own initiative, flew down to the Dursley's around Christmas time and hung around annoying the Dursleys until they finally gave her a present to take to Harry. Remember that Hedwig flew all the way to France to find Hermione, just to make sure Harry would have a birthday present. I can see Hedwig doing the same thing every Christmas. Just a thought. bboy_mn From greatelderone at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:29:51 2003 From: greatelderone at yahoo.com (greatelderone) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:29:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" wrote: > HERE HERE AND HIP HORAY, I AGREE WITH REBECCA. I DON'T SEE WHY RON > WOULD BE UPSET IF HERMIONE WAS M.O.M., GOODNESS, I THINK THAT RON > WOULD BE SHOCKED IF SHE WASN'T M.O.M. Possibly because Ron has pretty much been overshadowed by either his friends or brothers for most of his life. If Hermione becomes Minister of Magic it won't do any wonders for his self-esteem. > Why can't Hermione > have a husband that is not as powerful, or famous? The question is can Ron have a wife that continues to overshadow him and who would have more concern for the welfare of the wizard world than for her husband? > Happness has very > little to do with either of those things. Happness comes from doing > what is enjoyable to oneself. Happness rarely has anything to do with > a balance of equals, it has more to do with a balance of *respect* of > one another. And how are you going to create a balance of respect when the wife is more powerful politically and magically than her husband? From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:30:14 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:30:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814203014.79737.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77199 I'm wondering if Snape really likes Draco or is it a masquerade to conceal his loyalty to Dumbledore. He calls Draco by his first name instead of "Malfoy," as he does the other students he's not crazy about like Potter, Longbottom, Weasley, etc. I can't see Snape as a flawless liar 24/7, year after year. Sooner or later even the best fibbers fumble and let's their true feelings slip. I think he genuinely has feelings for Draco. How about you? ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 20:32:57 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:32:57 -0000 Subject: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > Maybe Hogwarts has a Post Office box somewhere in London, where > Muggle mail can be sent and then picked up by a MoM employee and > forwarded by owl. There have to be some contact points between the > WW and Muggle world; remember in Gringott's in CoS, Arthur Weasley > is so interested when he sees Hermione's parents exchanging money > there. Someone through the bank has to be able to transfer that > Muggle money back into the outside banking system, or it would just > sit there uselessly. And I suspect the Goblins are intent upon > getting whatever interest they can, even if they have to do business with a Muggle bank. I've been wondering about the Muggle/WW interaction since POA, when we find out that Fudge has consulted with the Muggle Prime Minister about Sirius (when he escapes from Azkaban). Yet in GOF, the WW takes SO many precautions for the Quidditch WC, and places constant memory charms on all the Muggles. Can we assume the Prime Minister has extensive memory work done at some point as well? Of course, Sirius was supposedly an escaped convict for approximately two years--that's a lot of "Obliviates!" It's also hard to imagine how a Goblin goes about getting money changed without suspicion. Oh, well, I'll just keep imagining that somehow wizards and witches are clever enough to make it all work. Ariadne From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 20:37:19 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:37:19 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: <20030814203014.79737.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > I'm wondering if Snape really likes Draco or is it a > masquerade to conceal his loyalty to Dumbledore. He > calls Draco by his first name instead of "Malfoy," as > he does the other students he's not crazy about like > Potter, Longbottom, Weasley, etc. I can't see Snape as > a flawless liar 24/7, year after year. Sooner or > later even the best fibbers fumble and let's their > true feelings slip. I think he genuinely has feelings > for Draco. How about you? > > Geoff: I don't recall him calling Malfoy by his first name. He certainly rfers to him as "Mr.Malfoy" in the "Duelling Club" chapter in COS and, in "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" in POA, where Malfoy has Hurt" his arm and Ron and Harry are browbeaten by Snape into getting ingredients ready for DM, Snape calls him "Malfoy" on at least three occasions. From siskiou at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 20:39:49 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:39:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <118524559308.20030814133949@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77202 Hi, Thursday, August 14, 2003, 1:29:51 PM, greatelderone wrote: > And how are you going to create a balance of respect when the wife is > more powerful politically and magically than her husband? Are you trying to say that all couples have to be equally powerful in all respects, to be able to respect each other? Or is it just if the *female* is more powerful, that something is wrong? I'm not sure what you are trying to say here, but I'm pretty sure that most people would be single if the above were true. If Hermione can't respect anyone who is less powerful than she, I truly hope she never becomes the Minister of Magic! -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 20:41:34 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:41:34 -0000 Subject: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > bboy_mn: > > I always assumed that Hedwig, of her own initiative, flew down to the > Dursley's around Christmas time and hung around annoying the Dursleys > until they finally gave her a present to take to Harry. (edited) > bboy_mn Hmm, maybe now that Harry has given Hedwig the idea that she can peck someone until they write a decent response (re: his "when am I getting out of here?" note to Ron, Hermione, and Sirius after the Dementor attack in OotP), perhaps Hedwig will do the same to Petunia until Petunia sends Harry a proper Christmas gift.:) -kg From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 14 20:42:02 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:42:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77204 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" wrote: > That would Definetely be in direct contrast to Dumbledore's whole > expression that choices are what defines us... not destiny. Really > the entire nature of the books are based on the principal that we are our choices and actions not our heritage or upbringing. > > A shining example of this is the attention (or lack there of in > Riddle's case) given to an orphaned child. One chose a dark path, one has chosen a lighter one. I can't help but think that Dumbledore doesn't see that if done all over again HIS choices could have made a profound difference. > > That said, if Dumbledore did "see through Tom" and held him > accountable for actions that he had not performed, then he is the > biggest fraud of all! Ariadne: Yet Dumbledore believes the prophecy for Harry, a destiny if there ever was one. Why the contradiction with Riddle? Was he also fulfilling a destiny that Dumbledore didn't want to interfere with? Of course, we only see one scene of interaction between Dumbledore/Riddle, and presumably it's from Riddle's perspective through the diary. We don't actually know that Dumbledore offered no support. And Riddle WAS already making dark choices at that time by opening the chamber. I'm not sure how the prophecy fits in with Dumbledore's foundation that "we are our choices." If this is his bottom-line belief, then surely Harry will get to choose his destiny as well. From ratalman at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:46:11 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:46:11 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77205 > Geoff: > I don't recall him calling Malfoy by his first name. He certainly > rfers to him as "Mr.Malfoy" in the "Duelling Club" chapter in COS > and, in "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" in POA, where Malfoy has Hurt" > his arm and Ron and Harry are browbeaten by Snape into getting > ingredients ready for DM, Snape calls him "Malfoy" on at least three > occasions. Yes, Snape calls him "Draco" just before the pensieve scene: "It's all right, Draco," said Snape, lowering his wand. Potter is here for a little Remedial Potions." (OoP, p. 638, US ed.) This is the only instance, however, that I can think of. Robyn From mbush at lainc.com Thu Aug 14 20:46:27 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:46:27 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vivamus42" Vivamus wrote: > > What I'm wondering is, even though she did nothing in class but tell > them to read a textbook which was obviously on NOT doing DADA, the > Prophet said that she was revolutionizing the subject, and the > students in her class probably did better on their OWLs than students > have in many years. All as a result of Harry and the DA, of course, > but that won't be public knowledge. Well, Dumbledore is back in charge now, and He knows about the DA, and that it was to learn DADA, so he'll be able to put two and two together even if it were only a handful of students (and he has that list). Anyone in Harry's year that wasn't also in the DA probably learned from Luin and "fake" Moody as well. So they may not be as bad off as one might think. Are general scores on the OWLS public knowledge anyway? Hogwarts uses them to determine if you're ready for more advanced classes, and each student knows their scores but would say, the Daily Prophet have any general acces to that information? (DADA scores were up 30% over last year at Hogwarts or something like that....) so where they may have been stronger in theory of DADA having to read the text for Umbridge, it may not translate to higher scores. Not to mention, were they retaining what they were *supposed* to be reading for her, or were they simply staring at the page for an hour or so? Mtwelovett From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 20:48:07 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:48:07 -0000 Subject: Snape adopt Harry/Legal age In-Reply-To: <20030814201420.81418.qmail@web21005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > Buttercup: > I thought 18 was the legal age of adulthood. Is it 16 > in the UK? > > > ===== > Buttercup > Me: In the previous post, they said he'd be of age in a year. He's only like a month from being 16, so in a year he'll be 17, which if you read OP you'd know is the age wizards and witches come of age (this seems too obvious to point out, but...the twins??!) James Redmont From eberte at vaeye.com Thu Aug 14 20:48:53 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:48:53 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > I have to disagree. There is no way JKR can remotely come close to > the power of writers like Tolkien and Austen, nor is she anywhere > near as literate as Lewis. "Warm flat beer" is not too bad as a > description; I enjoy a lot of things about the HP books (the first 4 > especially), the tricky plotting, the red herrings, the clever > windup tying all the loose ends together, the energy, the humour. > But literary style would come somewhere near the bottom of the > list. She's like Agatha Christie - a great read, but not a literary > master craftsman. Me: I have to disagree with you again. Although I *adore* Jane Austen's writing (one of my all time favorites), I question the description of her writing style in terms of "power". She is brilliantly witty, but her themes are intentionally commonplace, with self-realization and who-will-marry-whom being the most earth-shattering issues dealt with in most of her books. And I must point out that even Jane Austen's work was not always uniformly brilliant (e.g. Northanger Abbey, IMO, and, yes, I do realize that it is meant to be a satire.) Tolkien is a very powerful writer (IMO), with sweeping themes and well-developed relationships between well-drawn characters. But his books are peppered with long, long, boring passages that describe the topography of Middle Earth in grueling detail (not uniformly brilliant writing, IMO, in other words.) I think that Tolkien's writing has more resonance but less wit than JKR's. I am currently reading the Narnia series to my son at bedtime, and I must say that "literary" though C.S. Lewis may be, he sure can write some awkward, rambling, run-on sentences. The Agatha Christie comparison is not accurate, IMO. The characters in those books are (for the most part) completely forgettable the moment that you put the book down. I would not say that is the case with the HP series. Wanda again (responding to whether or not the series will be popular 50 years from now): > I think it depends on how well she finishes the series. Another > volume like OotP would finish off a lot of the enthusiasm for HP. > But a good conclusion would probably establish it as a mid- > level "classic". > Me (again): What exactly is a "mid-level" classic, in your opinion? Perhaps the following: Classic--univerally acknowledged fabulously written piece of literature that no one reads outside of a classroom assignment. (e.g. Dante's Inferno) Mid-level classic--well written piece that people actually read for pleasure (e.g. LOTR) Just kidding (for the most part!) Elle (with apologies to all those who happily listen to the audiobook of Dante's Inferno on their way into work everyday) From ratalman at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:50:33 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:50:33 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ratalman" wrote: > > Geoff: > > I don't recall him calling Malfoy by his first name. He certainly > > rfers to him as "Mr.Malfoy" in the "Duelling Club" chapter in > COS > > and, in "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" in POA, where Malfoy > has Hurt" > > his arm and Ron and Harry are browbeaten by Snape into > getting > > ingredients ready for DM, Snape calls him "Malfoy" on at least > three > > occasions. > > > Yes, Snape calls him "Draco" just before the pensieve scene: > "It's all right, Draco," said Snape, lowering his wand. Potter is > here for a little Remedial Potions." (OoP, p. 638, US ed.) > > This is the only instance, however, that I can think of. > > Robyn Robyn again: Except for 6 lines down, on the same page, where Snape calls him "Draco" again: '"Well, Draco, what is it?' asked Snape." From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:52:10 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 13:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814205210.40977.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77210 --- Richard wrote: > I also am not sending a howler, but wish to remind > folks of one fact: > JKR has said that a Weasley will die. When did she say that? Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 20:57:16 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:57:16 -0000 Subject: Question: Crookshanks and Mundungus In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Susan Smith" wrote: > > Now me (mtwelovett): > Mundungus was discribed as such, in one of the #12 Grimmauld scenes, > but I don't have the book here with me at present (maybe the one at > Christmas time when he brings the stuff to Fred and George and refuses > to give up his coat--Mrs Weasley's vision chaper I think.). I thought > about this discription some too, and wondered if maybe Mundungus is an > animangus as a cat/kneazle that maybe lives with Mrs Figg since they > seem to have a closer relationship. I don't think Mundungus is > Crookshanks, but could have similar markings as a "cat". > > > > Mundungus' description is early on in OoP-pg 22 (American edition) > "He had short bandy legs, long straggly ginger hair, and bloodshot > baggy eyes that gave him the doleful look of a basset hound..." > Atropos Gryffin Me: Maybe he is, but I know for sure they are not one and the same. They are both in the kitchen at Grimmauld Place on page 82 of the US version. James From manawydan at ntlworld.com Thu Aug 14 21:05:13 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:05:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dragons, Lily, and eyes References: <1060836096.4876.19003.m4@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003001c362a7$c1683b80$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 77212 klra2ra > Lily's eyes are green. Harry has her eyes. This is a big deal over > and over again. Evans is a Welsh name. The quintessential Welsh name > from what I understand. (There is a series of mysteries set in rural > Wales who's protagonist is named Evan Evans and people often joke > about how truly Welsh he is.) Evans (and similar names such as Evan, Bevan, and so on) are certainly very common Welsh names, though the true quintessential Welsh name is of course Jones! Lily (and presumably also Petunia) are both Evanses, but if they are a Welsh family living in Wales, how did Petunia meet Vernon, who seems firmly English? Other Welsh names are Caradoc Dearborn (first name only) and Evan Rosier (Rosier, by contrast to Evans, is an uncommon name, though most often found in south east Wales, where JKR went to school - the most common versions of that name are Rosser, Prosser, and so on), not to mention Dangerous Dai Llewellyn. Given that JKR is actually quite sensitive to issues of nationality and nomenclature, I don't think that the Evanses are Welsh other than by origin. Cheers Ffred (who has yet to read the Welsh version of PS/SS, but notes that Neville is translated as Nefydd Llewellyn and Draco as Dreigo Mallwyd...) O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 21:15:18 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030814211518.39944.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77213 --- greatelderone wrote: > Possibly because Ron has pretty much been > overshadowed by either his > friends or brothers for most of his life. If > Hermione becomes > Minister of Magic it won't do any wonders for his > self-esteem. His self-esteem is already improving. And if he wanted to be top-of-the heap he'd have hung out with Neville. I do not believe that Ron has to have a wife who is "less" than him. Yes, he wants some attention and praise sometimes; who doesn't? But have we ever seen him have a problem with Hermione being a better student? (excepting PS before they were friends). He gets annoyed at her know-it-all attitude sometimes, but sometimes she deserves it. There are definitely times when she's just showing off and needs to be called on it. > > > Why can't Hermione > > have a husband that is not as powerful, or famous? > > > The question is can Ron have a wife that continues > to overshadow him > and who would have more concern for the welfare of > the wizard world > than for her husband? WHOA! I say he can. If she is reasonable. But no one should have a spouse on the back-burner and expect that spouse to make all the concessions so that he/she can obtain greatness. That makes for a poor marriage. > > Happness has very > > little to do with either of those things. > Happness comes from doing > > what is enjoyable to oneself. Happness rarely has > anything to do > with > > a balance of equals, it has more to do with a > balance of *respect* > of > > one another. > > And how are you going to create a balance of respect > when the wife is > more powerful politically and magically than her > husband? > > Are you saying that she wouldn't respect someone who had less power? That makes no sense. Besides, who if she's MOM, then no one would have equal power politically, and she couldn't be married to anyone. Who says power has to be equal for respect to be equal? When you make this aruguement I think of Star Wars (before the god-awful NJO books). Leia is Chief of State and learning in the force and Han has no job and takes care of the kids often. Oh, and they both save the galaxy occasionally. And yes, there are rough spots, but they work it out. Works for me. I don't see this rampant inequity in Hermione and Ron that you do. I think they're pretty equal. She's more gifted academically, but that's it. Big deal. And, for the record, I don't think she'll be MOM. Doesn't seem like a job she'd like it, and I don't think it'd suit her(and I think a muggle-born would have difficulty obtaining the office, no matter how deserved it was). She doesn't have the temprament. She too self-righteous and unwilling to compromise. No, the MOM shoudn't give in on every little thing. But they need to be able to listen, and that skill is serverely lacking in Hermione. Unless that changes, she wouldn't do well. Because she's going to do things her way without ever listening to anyone else's way. And even if her way isn't working, she won't change it. And that's a dangerous trait in someone with so much power. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Aug 14 21:17:36 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:17:36 -0000 Subject: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House-Elves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77214 Loved the image of Dobbie cooking himself! Have you read Terry Pratchett's Lords and Ladies? The elves in that are as beautiful as Tolkien's but are unspeakably nasty, cruel, vicious and vain. The absolute essence of cool, though. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 21:28:26 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:28:26 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77215 Someone mentioned recently that Harry had travelled in the Hogwarts carriages four times. This should of course be only three because the didn't travel in them in COS. This is arrival journeys; there is an implication in POA that this is the only time each year because Harry seemed to be using them for the first time in POA. In PS, we are told that the First Years used the boats again and nothing is said in COS. The interesting thing which caught my eye when doing research into this tonight was the following from POA: "Harry, Ron and Hermione followed the rest of the school out onto a rough mud track, where at least a hundred stagecoaches awaited the remaining students, each pulled, Harry could only assume, by an invisible horse......." (p.68, "The Dementor" chapter) Geoff From carlpelleg at aol.com Thu Aug 14 19:16:57 2003 From: carlpelleg at aol.com (arcturusfelire) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:16:57 -0000 Subject: The Killing Curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcturusfelire" > wrote: snip > I just remember Crouch/Moody saying in GoF that it takes a powerful > lot of magic to make the AK work, and that the whole class could > point their wands at him and say it, and it probably wouldn't do a > thing. Where this magic could come from, he doesn't explain, but I > suspect that it would have to be from Hate. The Killing Curse is > part of the Dark Arts, after all. When you AK someone, it's almost > like hating them to death; I don't think it could ever be performed > compassionately. I don't know if you could even perform it > DISpassionately, as a judge would, impartially sentencing a criminal > to death. It seems to me that the AK is evil from its root. > > Wanda Wanda That is a good point about the need for hatred to actually cast the spell successfully. But I also thought he said that its because of an adults understanding of death that allows it to successed wherein a child casting the spell would fail. This might have been in a fanfiction I read, I am not entirely sure (lol). Now, the remaining section of the post I can't really agree with. Unless I am reading it wrong, you thing dark magic is inherently evil. I do not see it that way. I see magic as naturally neutral and its human's that make it good or bad by our actions. I could easily take a lumos spell and blind somebody with its brilliance, or levitate somebody on to a piece of rock. I am killing them by my actions. I am using a 'light' spell and turning it 'dark'. Now, that is the way I see the killing curse if, and only if, it only kills the body. If it does something else that disrupts the natural cycle of life and death (like destroying the soul or banishing it to a wand, etc.) than it is unforgivable in all cases (except against voldemort as he is not human). I am glad you have given your response. Cause it helps to see what other people are thinking. CarlPelleg From Ali at zymurgy.org Thu Aug 14 21:44:41 2003 From: Ali at zymurgy.org (Ali) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:44:41 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77217 I wrote:- I am intrigued by the idea of what makes good literature, indeed, what makes anything great. Golly replied:- Quality - pure and simple. I can't think of any classic novel I have ever read that wasn't well written. The only exception was my great annoyance at the Iilad for repeating itself so often and even given that stylistic idiosyncracy, it had compensations. Even the bible is well written at most points. Job is powerful stuff. >>> Given the odd way HP is written (with every book being set for the age Harry is) and the prose like warm flat beer (as someone other than I noted), I suspect HP is not destined to be a classic.<<< You've rather made my point here though. Who defines quality? Top quality vegetables in British supermarkets all have to be perfectly shaped, the same size, the same colour; quality vegetables in Italy are all different shapes and sizes, but IMO have much more flavour. Quality is not objective, it's subjective. British supermarkets go wrong by trying to use many objective standards and end up with tastless fruit. Is there not a danger that by assessing books against objective measures we are missing the point? I do think that Jane Austen's books are classics and are "great". LOTR is different again. I find the story itself and creation of Middle Earth amazing, and yet, the first time I tried to read the books, I only got half way before I gave up in boredom. IMO Tolkein made brilliant stories, but was not always brilliant at telling them. Golly again with regard to Lady Diana recently being voted one of the Greatest Britons: >>>> Well poll an idiot get an idiotic answer.<<< So you mean that the general populace shouldn't have the right to decide whether something is great or not? What is the alternative a body of say English Literature Professors dictating to us what is quality or what is great? Ali From ratalman at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 21:54:52 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:54:52 -0000 Subject: Voices and Magic - Eyes & More In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77218 > Now what if the wizard thinks the words; he mentally vocalizes them. > That is his same voice speaking the same words, only internally. That > should create the same resonance and harmony necessary to make the > spell work. The mind and the magic hear it even if the ears don't. And > indeed, I think that is how wizards do wandless wordless magic. Picking up the thread from bboy_mn's very excellent post: In "Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them", JKR gives a lengthy description of a beast called the Lethifold (pp. 25-7). Therein is an account by a wizard who escaped an attack by a Lethifold. With wand in hand, and unable to breathe or cry out, as the creature was wrapped about his face, the wizard subdued the Lethifold with the Patronus charm. Prior to the Patronus charm, the wizard had attempted to perform the Stupyfying Charm and the Impediment Hex, neither of which succeeded in driving off the Lethifold, but which did blast a hole in his bedroom door. Robyn From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 21:57:39 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:57:39 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus Mimbletonia (was Neville's Wand) In-Reply-To: <200307311810.19045.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77219 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, silmariel wrote: > Complex, isn't it? Neville is more than meets the eye. I'd like to know if > another detail has been discussed. We know the constant references to > Mimbulus Mimbletonia. Given there is a phrase I wish I could locate in the > book as the plant being assyrian (or sirian), is it a reference to the book > about mediterranean plants he was given in GoF? > > silmariel Me: Uncle Algie got it in Assyria. Page 186, US version of OP, towards the bottom. I for one KNOW this is going to be v. important, so I think it would benefit us all to figure out everything we can about it. Neville said he's going to breed from it. Do you think he means cross breeding with another plant? What could mimbulus mimbletonia mean? One website had it listed as meaning "moonlit cactus", which utterly bewildered me, until I was rereading OP yesterday and saw where they all go to bed and Neville is looking at his moonlit cactus. I think the thing was actually moonlit. I don't think that's what the name means. Anyway, it's got an awesome defensive mechanism, we know that. It squirts the stink sap. It looks like a cactus, but has boils instead of spines. I for one don't know for sure if Great Uncle Algie is all that great. He nearly killed Neville trying to force the magic out of him. He almost drowned him, then he nearly killed him when he dropped him out the window. What if Gran and Algie aren't who they appear to be? Let's not forget that Algie got Trevor for Neville, then he gets the plant. Trevor always seemed important to me. Maybe I'm wrong. But doesn't it seem a big coincidence that Gran is there in the hospital when the devil's snare is delivered? And what if by giving the gum wrappers to Neville, his mom is trying to warn him about his Gran? (who knows how that might work, but Gran did tell him to throw it away) Anyway, I'm very anxious to hear any ideas about Neville's plant. James Redmont From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 22:07:05 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:07:05 -0000 Subject: Metamorphmagus!Harry? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77220 Remember when Harry was little and he grew all his hair back over night? You think maybe Harry's a meta? Seems to me that could come in handy when he battles Lord Thingy, and when he eventually becomes an auror. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 19:31:29 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:31:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? In-Reply-To: <20030814185410.33062.qmail@web42003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77221 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Michaela Ross wrote: > > lupinwolf2001 wrote: > We know that Dumbledore watches over Harry. We know that he > protects him while at the same time must prep him for being > "the one" (so to speak). > > But for all of that... for all of the attention given to a > promising student like Harry, where was all that when Tom > Riddle was at Hogwarts? Presumably, Tom now Voldemort is devoid of the qualities of love and its consequent character traits, such as compassion. These are hardly things one can teach to or into another person. Harry, despite the unpleasantness of his adoptive Muggle family (as opposed to his virual adoptive wizarding family, the Weasleys) knew, however briefly, the love of his parents, and is loving by nature ... even if he definitely acts like a self-centered teen at times. > Is Dumbledore somewhat making ammends (through his actions with > Harry) for the attention he didn't give Tom Riddle? Could > Dumbledore have made a profound difference in an adolesant > young Riddle? I would imagine that it would have. While > Dumbledore was not yet the headmaster, it seems that he had > more contact with Tom (as a teacher) than most headmasters would. Even if he is not making amends, it is consistent with his behavior towards Tom, Harry and everyone else that he is caring and nurturing. Being nurturing and caring and all doesn't mean one cannot be somewhat suspicious of and watchful regarding a problem student. Further, it is, as is pointed out repeatedly in the series, our choices that make us what we are, and Tom made his own choices based upon his character. About all Dumbledore is likely to have taught Tom in the seven years he was at Hogwarts is to be more careful about revealing things. (We are, if psychologists are write, pretty much who are are going to be by age six, and eleven is a bit late to make really fundamental changes in another without such things as war, medical school and extended psychotherapy intervening.) > I can't believe that in some fashion, Dumbledore doesn't hold > himself partly responsible for failing to recognize or make a > difference with Tom Riddle to stop him becoming something > abhorrantly evil like Voldemort. As all caring people will, Dumbledore surely sees his role in how things have turned out, and as a loving person he will feel actively responsible for setting things right ... but that doesn't require that he feel guilt, and that that guilt drive him to present actions. > If Harry is REALLY supposed to "kill" voldemort with "love" are we > then to conclude that he will "save" Tom Riddle with "love"? I don't think it is love taht Harry will use to kill Voldemort, but that the power love gives one in care and defense of those loved will be the deciding factor. As Voldemort is devoid of both love and conscience, I don't see him being in any sense "redeemed," regardless of how his downfall is encompassed. > Either way, this is a pretty profound statement to assert how big > of a difference love and attention can make in two similar lives. > And why, was Dumbledore inacapable of making a positive difference > in the life of Tom Riddle? We can teach others many things, but we can't make them love, and we can't make them make the choices we would rather they make. > It was said that Dumbledore "saw through" Tom, maybe he knew all > along that he was destined for evil. I don't think Dumbledore saw Tom as evil, but saw the danger in the choices that Tom was making, and saw where these choices would likely lead if Tom did not at some point choose a different path. From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 22:25:55 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:25:55 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore Watching Over Harry In-Reply-To: <20030813120751.50130.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77222 --- Buttercup asked: > > I wonder if there are other passages in the books > where Harry notices a fly or other insects. What other > reason would JKR write a scene that included Harry > seeing a bug? Very good observation, Toad. Harry notices a wasp when he is taking one of his OWL exams. Maybe History of Magic? (At work. No books.) Constance Vigilance From coonkell at msu.edu Thu Aug 14 19:30:15 2003 From: coonkell at msu.edu (Kelly M.) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:30:15 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77223 Lupinwolf wrote: > Is it as "simple" as he likes Harry more than he likes Tom? Is it > as complex as he has "grown" to love Harry because he has been > forced to be part of his life due to his role in Voldemort's demise? > > IF so, what if Dumbledore HAD shown Tom Riddle this same > affection/attention... would there have ever been a Voldemort? > > Are these some of the mistakes that Dumbledore is alluding to > in the end of OOTP? Dumbledore has had to watch Harry ever since he was little because of the prophesy and because he didn't believe LV was gone. So in that respect, I think he has grown to love Harry because he has known him and watched over him for so long. If Dumbledore had shown Riddle that same affection, who knows what would have happened. But Riddle seems to me to have already made his choices by the time he is in school. With his family situation, he hated muggle-borns. Obviously evil enough to find the chamber, etc. So would Dumbledore's "love" really have changed the course of things? I don't think so, but that is just my opinion. From pisola6363 at netzero.com Thu Aug 14 19:47:17 2003 From: pisola6363 at netzero.com (occam6363) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:47:17 -0000 Subject: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77224 I'm re-reading CoS. Harry gets a toothpick for Xmas from the Dursley's with a note asking him to see if he can stay at Hogwarts for the summer holidays, too. I'm at work so I don't have a page reference, but if you're browsing the book this is the time when the Polyjuice Potion is about ready and the Trio and Malfoy stay at Hogwarts for Christmas. What the h*** is Petunia thinking? Is this a FLINT? Since OoP we know that Petunia knows Harry has to come home to keep LV off his back, and we also know that Petunia has completely (if grudingly) accepted this burden. Are we to assume she had nothing to do with the note, that it was from Vernon Dursley and not "the Dursleys?" -- Occam From pisola6363 at netzero.com Thu Aug 14 19:57:16 2003 From: pisola6363 at netzero.com (occam6363) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:57:16 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77225 "Richard" wrote: JKR has said that a Weasley will die. me, Occam: Ooooh, call me a muggle but I did not know that! When did she say it, where, do you have a source? Richard: My leading candidates are, in order of my perception of probability, Ron, Molly and Percy. me, Occam: What about the Twins? With all that good magic they've been conjuring getting Wheezes up and running, you know they've got skills to share with the OoP. Remember the Extendable Ears? Remember when they read Molly the riot act when she tries to send them to bed before Sirius tells Harry about the OoP, don't they argue how they're of age? Don't they say they want to join the Order? *If* a Weasley has to die (I still need to be convinced JKR said that!), I vote for either Fred or George, or both, going down in a blaze of glory, perhaps knowingly and with a wink and a nod at the readers, like Butch and Sundance. Just like they left Hogwarts. -- Occam From tatiana6336 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 22:43:29 2003 From: tatiana6336 at hotmail.com (daelyn_duprer) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:43:29 -0000 Subject: Dragons, Lily, and eyes In-Reply-To: <003001c362a7$c1683b80$db7d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77226 Hasn't it been speculated that Godric's Hollow is in Wales? If so, could it be the Evan's ancestral cottage? Perhaps way way back before all this mudblood bigotry the Evans and Godric Gryffindor were friends. Interesting, but admittedly a very obscure connection. ~Daelyn~ --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > klra2ra > > Lily's eyes are green. Harry has her eyes. This is a big deal over > > and over again. Evans is a Welsh name. The quintessential Welsh name > > from what I understand. (There is a series of mysteries set in rural > > Wales who's protagonist is named Evan Evans and people often joke > > about how truly Welsh he is.) > > Evans (and similar names such as Evan, Bevan, and so on) are certainly very > common Welsh names, though the true quintessential Welsh name is of course > Jones! > > Lily (and presumably also Petunia) are both Evanses, but if they are a Welsh > family living in Wales, how did Petunia meet Vernon, who seems firmly > English? > > Other Welsh names are Caradoc Dearborn (first name only) and Evan Rosier > (Rosier, by contrast to Evans, is an uncommon name, though most often found > in south east Wales, where JKR went to school - the most common versions of > that name are Rosser, Prosser, and so on), not to mention Dangerous Dai > Llewellyn. > > Given that JKR is actually quite sensitive to issues of nationality and > nomenclature, I don't think that the Evanses are Welsh other than by origin. > > Cheers > > Ffred (who has yet to read the Welsh version of PS/SS, but notes that > Neville is translated as Nefydd Llewellyn and Draco as Dreigo Mallwyd...) > > O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon > Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion > Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From tatiana6336 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 22:56:33 2003 From: tatiana6336 at hotmail.com (daelyn_duprer) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:56:33 -0000 Subject: Alohamora Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77227 Perhaps someone who has paid more attention to this spell can help me out a bit. Alohamora has been an integral part of the series for so long that I imagine JKR has thought it out with great precision, but I'm confused about its uses in the Dept. of Mysteries. As far as I can tell, there are several ways to lock doors in the WW: 1. the normal way with a key - open with Alohamora or Sirius' knife 2. with a spell none but a wizard could break - Alohamora? the knife? Umbridge may have used such a spell on her office, as snape did, but both these doors have been broken into 3. with the collecorpus (sp? sorry, i don't have the book) spell (maybe this is the spell Snape and/or Dolores uses. My question is this - when does Alohamora work, and when doesn't it? In the dept of mysteries, I seem to remember (correct me if i'm wrong, since I don't have OoP and it's been a while since I've read) One of the girls uses the Collecorpus spell to seal a door, but the DE's break through with Alohamora. The heroes then retreat into the room with many doors, which they begin sealing with the same spell, one door at a time. The DE's, rather than using Alohamora to open the doors, race all they way around until they beat the spellcasters to an unlocked entrance. Why didn't they take the easy way in? Or is Alohamora such an obsolete spell that only Hermione and an apparantly well-read DE remember it? Any explanations would help, this is a nitpicky thing that is driving me nuts. ~Daelyn~ From c4bchief at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 23:24:33 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:24:33 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77228 > George, or both, going down in a blaze of glory, perhaps knowingly > and with a wink and a nod at the readers, like Butch and Sundance. > Just like they left Hogwarts. > > -- Occam I see where your going with that and you certainly have a valid point in thinking Fred & George might be killed. Although, I'm thinking Percy. I realize many out there think Percy isn't so bad. But i absolutely hate the bugger right now. I can see Percy being redeemed in only 2 ways. First, If he does turn out to be working for the OOP OR if he somehow sacrifices himself for his family or the OOP. No matter how the story goes, unless one of those ways occurs ill never forgive him. Even if JKR has everyone else forgive. Joe From drednort at alphalink.com.au Thu Aug 14 23:33:09 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:33:09 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F3CA8D5.5102.648BB6@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 77229 On 13 Aug 2003 at 12:21, feetmadeofclay wrote: > It is simple let us just ask someone who is British and went to a > school with a house system. Anyone go to Eton? > > Obviously this system is modeled after a real system with a little > magic sorting thrown in. > > How does the real system work? The problem is there is no single real system. I went to an Australian school, one of a number strongly modelled on British traditions, with a house system and with prefects. I know a lot of other people who went to similar schools in Australia and in the UK - and the simple fact is, there's a wide range of systems used. They all have some similarities - but there's a lot of different ways Hogwarts could work. I've made several posts on this myself in the past based on my experiences - but really all we can do is guess - those of us with experiences of such systems can probably make more informed guesses - but nobody can know until and unless JKR spells it out. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From gandharvika at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 23:51:22 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:51:22 +0000 Subject: (FILK) We've Got All The Jokes That You'd Want To Buy At Weasley Wizard Whee Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77230 In my continuing endeavor to see all Beatle songs filked, there are some songs that I have to say, "Let's just get this over with." This is one of them... We've Got All The Jokes That You'd Want To Buy At Weasley Wizard Wheezes (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except For Me And My Monkey_ by the Beatles) Yes, that's really a title of a Beatles song. Midi is here (it sux, but what can I do? Listen to the album): http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html Dedicated to my Partner-In-Crime...you don't hate me, do you? Think of this as an advertisement for Fred & George's new joke shop... Fred and George (Lee Jordan is ringing the bell): Come on, come on Come on, come on Come on into our store Come on through the front door It's on Diagon Alley We'll be here with our pal, Lee We're the Weasleys, we're the Weasleys We've got all the jokes that you'd want to buy at Weasley Wizard Wheezes Eat the orange half - then you'll start to puke To stop puking you - eat the purple half So come on, come on Buy a Skiving Snackbox We've got plenty in stock Some will make your nose bloody Give boils or a sore tummy It is funny, it is funny We've got all the jokes that you'd want to buy at Weasley Wizard Wheezes You put on this hat - and your head disappears Your head reappears - when you take off the hat So come on, come on Buy a Portable Swamp And fireworks that don't stop Fred: My name is Fred Weasley George: My name is George Weasley F & G: We're the Weasleys, we're the Weasleys We've got all the jokes that you'd want to buy at Weasley Wizard Wheezes Come on, come on, come on, come on.... -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus From yellows at aol.com Thu Aug 14 23:53:46 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 19:53:46 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive Message-ID: <1F9E380F.3A56C24D.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77231 In a message dated 8/14/2003 3:47:17 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Occam writes: > What the h*** is Petunia thinking? Is this a FLINT? Since OoP we know that Petunia knows Harry has to come home to keep LV off his back, and we also know that Petunia has completely (if grudingly) accepted this burden. Are we to assume she had nothing to do with the note, that it was from Vernon Dursley and not "the Dursleys?" I was of the impression that Petunia gathered if it was safe for Harry at Hogwarts over the winter holidays, when most students return home, then it must also be safe for him there during the summer holidays. It seems she thought she had found a way out of the whole situation of taking care of Harry and she wanted to take advantage of it right away. Brief Chronicles From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Thu Aug 14 18:41:00 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:41:00 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hermione and the Ragged Trousered House Elves References: Message-ID: <3F3BD7BC.4060904@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77232 arrowsmithbt wrote: > Set against this are scores happily beavering away at Hogwarts and > by implication, other establishments. Of the three Elves, two of them > are unhappy (Winky and Kreacher), but only because they cannot do > their duty as they see it. I don't think you can draw any conclusions about house-elfs in general from those at Hogwarts. Dumbledore is exceptionally enlightened; he allows the elfs to call him a barmy old codger if they want. I have no doubt at all that he would gladly give clothes to any elf who asked for them. They don't, though, because unlike Dobby, Winky, and Kreacher they are well-treated and happy. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Thu Aug 14 18:35:26 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 14:35:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? References: Message-ID: <3F3BD66E.4070509@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77233 subrosax99 wrote: > If Snape was so > hot for LV in the beginning, why didn't he just turn him into a > vampire? That would have quickly dispensed with the whole eternal > life problem. That question applies regardless of whether or not Snape is a vampire. If he isn't, other are, so if vampire-style immortality had been agreeable to Voldemort, he could have had it. And for all we know, vampires played some part in the precautions Voldemort took against dying. From yellows at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:11:01 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:11:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Mimbulus Mimbletonia (was Neville's Wand) Message-ID: <43820566.5A7BCD8F.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77234 In a message dated 8/14/2003 5:57:39 PM Eastern Daylight Time, JAmes Redmont writes: > Maybe I'm wrong. But doesn't it seem a big coincidence that Gran is there in the hospital when the devil's snare is delivered? And what if by giving the gum wrappers to Neville, his mom is trying to warn him about his Gran? (who knows how that might work, but Gran did tell him to throw it away) This is where you picked me up to join your theory. I thought the scene was meaningful and packed with things I wasn't catching onto, and this could be part of the mystery. There's *clearly* something more going on with Neville, that's accepted. But Gran and his uncle are likely part of his mystery, too. The bubblegum wrapper makes me really wonder. There has to be a reason Neville's mom handed it to him -- when I get my copy of OoP back, I'm going to check it out. :) I wish I had it with me now. What could bubblegum symbolize? Hasn't she given him a lot of them already? Do the wrappers say anything on them? Have we ever heard of bubblegum wrappers before in the series? Could bubblegum be a device to save the world from LV? ;) Brief Chronicles From sydpad at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 00:11:05 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:11:05 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77235 I wrote: > > > > Also, sunlight, garlic, yadda yadda... the main point of vampires is > > that they're UNDEAD. They don't age or die. I'm not a vampire fan, > > but a mortal vampire isn't a vampire in my book, it's just someone > who > > drinks blood. > > > > Sydney Allyson replies: > Exactly. How is Snape supposed to be in danger from LV if he is > undead?!! Other than a well positioned stake through the heart, it's > not as if he can be killed. Where then is the danger? If Snape was so > hot for LV in the beginning, why didn't he just turn him into a > vampire? That would have quickly dispensed with the whole eternal > life problem. That's not even my main problem with the undead thing. It's the aging. We've now seen Snape as child, as a teenager, aging perfectly normally. That's just not undead. If the point of Vampires is that they have somthing to do with immortality, then what's with the parents, the childhood, the aging? I'm wondering if Lupin's Vampire-tease may not have been related to Snape having had some vampire-thing in school-- I mean beeing keen on them or wanting to be one. It's not a great explanation, but I've been trying to think of some other Snape/Vampire connection and that's the best I could come up with. Sydney From kfc4588 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 00:14:47 2003 From: kfc4588 at yahoo.com (kfc4588) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:14:47 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77236 Sorry if this has been posted before but while I was rereading book 3 for about the 200th time (i had lots of time because of the huge blackout here.. i havent had lights for about 4 hours) I started thinking, is there a reason besides how they make you feel that dumbledore hates dementors? i mean does he have bad things in his past or does he just not like them? i think there has to be something deeper to this... or maybe im just reading too deeply into this, i dont know those four hours without electricty might have made me go insane! off to enjoy the lights! -casey- From yellows at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:15:20 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:15:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Presenting: SILK GOWNS Message-ID: <0858958A.191111AC.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77237 In a message dated 8/14/2003 1:30:21 PM Eastern Daylight Time, RSFJenny writes: > SILK GOWNS potentially has a lot of canon to support it, and I'm going to try to gather every bit of it and would love contributions! I'm joining! :) Of course, as I've stated with a frown, my book is loaned out and so I'm having some difficulty researching what exactly I think the bubblegum is all about. :P But I'm with you anyway. :) I'll get my mother to finish reading quickly and perhaps then I'll be of more use. Brief Chronicles From yellows at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:19:53 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:19:53 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Petunia?! (formerly Christmas Gifts from Dursleys) Message-ID: <65A972A8.46469EA9.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77238 In a message dated 8/14/2003 1:42:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brookeshanks writes: > why would Petunia take care to make sure that Harry remains protected? She obviously knows more than we thought she did. How much does she know? How far would Aunt Petunia go to protect Harry in a crisis? Could her apparent loathing of him ever subside? Any thoughts? I think you have a good point -- her gifts may have a protective magical quality to them and DD may have required that she send *something* while he's at Hogwarts. Here's my question: Does he keep the things she sends, or does he chuck them? How useful could they be? But in response to yours: I believe that DD has told her about Azkaban, which is why she seems to know all about it better than other aspects of the WW. If Petunia has heard about and fears Azkaban, she'll obey DD's every wish. For all we know, Petunia may actually be considered a potential inmate if she refuses to protect Harry. She may be held responsible by a magically-binding contract. Brief Chronicles From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 00:21:22 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:21:22 -0000 Subject: a Weasley will die? Canon? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" > wrote: > > > > > I also am not sending a howler, but wish to remind folks of one fact: > JKR has said that a Weasley will die. Richard or anybody else who knows this, PLEASE show us canon where JKR said a Weasley would die......... Jacquie From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 00:21:31 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:21:31 -0000 Subject: Ollivander and Luna: Silvery Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77240 Forgive me if I'm re-posting on this one. I'm just re-reading PS/SS and Ollivander's, "silvery, misty" eyes reminded me of Luna's "silvery" and "misty and protuberant" eyes. Then, I searched the archives and saw people discussing Ollivander's possible pshychic abilities that enable him to help people choose wands, and of course Luna has a strong intuitive side to her. Are they related, perhaps, or does JKR have so many characters now that we're seeing overlap!?! And then with Trelawney, she's got the misty eyes, even though Harry gives you the impression that she can make those come and go at will, that it's an affectation she developed to imitate a person with psychic abilities. Ariadne From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:22:03 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:22:03 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] is there a reason? Message-ID: <11.172854d9.2c6d81ab@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77241 Casey writes: > > Sorry if this has been posted before but while I was rereading book 3 > for about the 200th time (i had lots of time because of the huge > blackout here.. i havent had lights for about 4 hours) I started > thinking, is there a reason besides how they make you feel that > dumbledore hates dementors? i mean does he have bad things in his > past or does he just not like them? i think there has to be something > deeper to this... or maybe im just reading too deeply into this, i > dont know those four hours without electricty might have made me go > insane! Cassie: I've always felt it was because of people's (mainly Fudge's) naive trust in them. I'm not sure where (I'm pretty sure it was GoF), but somewhere Dumbledore tells Fudge something along the lines of "They (the Dementors) will not remain loyal to you. Voldemort can give them more, etc...etc.." Whatever the reasons...they must be very foul for kind, trusting Dumbledore to not like them. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:37:28 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:37:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and thestrals Message-ID: <3ECE4042.722C1204.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77242 In a message dated 8/14/2003 2:42:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 writes: > Geoff: > > Two possibilities. In GOF, Hagrid tells Harry that his father died > during Hagrid's second year at Hogwarts. Did he see his father after > his death? > > Additionally, in POA when Harry overheards the conversation between > McGonagall/Fudge/Flitwick/Hagrid in the Thre Broomsticks ("The > MArauder's Map" p.153), Hagrid says that he pulled Harry from the > ruins of the Potter house after Voldemort's attack just after Lily > and James were killed. Does this imply that he must have > seen their > bodies? I thought the person had to *watch* someone die in order to see the Thestrals, not see a dead body after the fact. That's why, I think, it was so eerie to notice that a few of the students could see the beasts in their teenage years. Many adults haven't seen a person die in front of their eyes; it made us all wonder who Neville, etc., had already watched snuff it. Brief Chronicles From mollsballs322 at aol.com Thu Aug 14 20:13:28 2003 From: mollsballs322 at aol.com (mmouse322) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:13:28 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellejir" wrote: > I think that the > > series will be popular 50 years from now. > > I think it depends on how well she finishes the series. Another > volume like OotP would finish off a lot of the enthusiasm for HP. > But a good conclusion would probably establish it as a mid- > level "classic". ---I'm not a literary expert (in fact, I doubt I could carry on a conversation about it without sounding like a 12 year old), but I do agree that if book six is anywhere close to OotP's tone, it would kill a lot of the excitement people have for HP. I know it's not "realistic" for a boy like Harry to not show some anger and bitterness, but flying over London on an invisable horse isn't very realistic either, is it? I just hope that book six shows Harry back to normal and not so brooding; I don't even want an explaination as to why he's semi-happy again. That's not likely though, damn. From redfish5 at onetel.com Thu Aug 14 20:40:29 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:40:29 -0000 Subject: Weasley Death Candidates (WAS: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" > wrote: J.K.Rowling has said a Weasley will die (snip) > > Now, as for WHY I think Ron, Molly and Percy the leading candidates > for dead Weasley, it isn't exactly on topic in this thread, so I > apologize here and now. > > In the chapter "Mrs. Weasley's Woes," when Harry walks in on her with > the Bogart, it is RON who is first lying there. So, of the family > members that she fears the death of, Ron is the one whose death she > most fears ... at least of the bodies we are shown. If Ron really > does achieve his dream of being captain of the house quidditch team, > head boy and winning the cup comes true (which thus far there is > every indication of happening), he will have become the "best and > brightest" Weasley, which we also know he aspires to. This would > make his death still more devastating to his family, and to his > mother. All this fits in well with JKR's pattern of showing life > realistically, and we all know that not all our heroes come home from > wars. It is often the best and brightest who die ... and heroically. > (snip) I had to snip the Percy and Molly explanations as my quote would be too long, I think the only real candidates for a Weasley death are Bill or Charlie , percy less so, J.K.Rowling has said that the "body count" would rise, I think Bill or Charlie could die, add the effect of a war, not distress the plot too much and simple be a good death the fill out this body count. From catportkey at aol.com Thu Aug 14 20:48:29 2003 From: catportkey at aol.com (catportkey at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 16:48:29 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77245 Harry may have his mother's eyes in shape and color, but the poor kid inherited the poor eyesight from Dad! Yet, the question remains ... is there no cure? And if Harry went to a muggle for glasses, do wizards go to specialists for their eyes? Do they purchase them at Lenswizards? And are the frames as expensive as muggle frames? Come to think of it, Harry probably got his glasses from Muggle Lenscrafters - - they keep on breaking. Wizard glasses are probably unbreakable. Pook [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk Thu Aug 14 20:48:19 2003 From: mainecoon at wytopitlock.dk (Anette Becker) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:48:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? References: Message-ID: <00b701c362a5$65485170$cd00a8c0@presario> No: HPFGUIDX 77246 Hi > Geoff: > I don't recall him calling Malfoy by his first name. He certainly > rfers to him as "Mr.Malfoy" in the "Duelling Club" chapter in COS > and, in "The Boggart in the Wardrobe" in POA, where Malfoy has Hurt" > his arm and Ron and Harry are browbeaten by Snape into getting > ingredients ready for DM, Snape calls him "Malfoy" on at least three > occasions. Snape calls him Draco somewhere in the end of OofP. I don't remember it for sure, but I think it's where Draco interrupt the occlumency lesson. Greetings Anette From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 21:30:51 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:30:51 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77247 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > Why does everybody keep saying that?? P. 176, U.S. version: > > "No!" Mrs. Weasley moaned. "No...riddikulus! Riddikulus! > RIDDIKULUS!" > > Crack. Dead twins. Crack. Dead Percy. Crack. Dead Harry... Obviously because old age is getting the better of me ... Actually, it was a simple error, as what I WANTED to say at one point is that we were likley seeing a portion of a sequence that might have been repetitive, using that as a counter-arguement for one of my hypotheses ... But, I deleted that part of the message because the message itself was getting pretty long, and the result was a somewhat mangled message. Of course, that may be age induced too ... There's no fool like an old fool, after all ;) From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 21:36:33 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:36:33 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: <20030814205210.40977.qmail@web20002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- Richard wrote: > > > I also am not sending a howler, but wish to remind > > folks of one fact: > > JKR has said that a Weasley will die. > > When did she say that? I *THINK* it was in a Barnes and Nobles interview a couple of years ago, but can't remember precisely. I'll see if I can dig it up. I do know that she has in a couple of interviews stated that the deaths will continue, and that one in particular will make her cry when she writes it. As Ron is based loosely on a close friend of hers (again from an interview I'll have to dig up), that would fit Ron, even if I think she would cry a great deal over "killing" Dumbledore, Hagrid, Mr. or Mrs. Weasley, et al. ... She does seem to love so many of her characters! From susannacedric at passagen.se Thu Aug 14 21:56:28 2003 From: susannacedric at passagen.se (susannacedric) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:56:28 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian Names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" > wrote: > > I certainly hadn't noticed that they are royal names (William, > > Charles etc.)as the names are so common in England. Who exactly is > > King Ronald.? Dont recollect him. Or King Percival either. There > is > > a Molly Queen of the Beggars in one of Terry Pratchett's Discworld > > books (Feet of Clay, I think). > > They don't necessarily have to be names of kings and queens. We've > never had a King Albert in the UK, but it was the first name of Queen > Elizabeth's father, who reigned as Goege VI. (It has been a royal > name in Belgium admittedly). > > Percival (or more accurately Percivale) was a Knight of the Round > Table (in Malory at least). Ronald, I must admit, leaves me in the > dark for the moment. Perhaps someone can say "Lumos" for my benefit. > > The thought of Bill as Bilius leave me feeling slightly green [but > not with envy :-)] > > Geoff Now me: Arthur= Noble, courageous William= Resolute protector, Determined protector Ronald= Powerful, Rules with counsel, Mighty or powerful Percy= Pierces Percival= Destroyer (in latin),Pierces Charles= A man- variant of Carl Fred= Variant of Frederick "peaceful ruler." George= Farmer Molly= From the Gaelic Maili which is a pet form of Mary "bitter." Could not find any meaning to the name Bilius. Susanna From redfish5 at onetel.com Thu Aug 14 21:58:21 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:58:21 -0000 Subject: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase with her interviews?? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77250 To fellow I realise this is another post by me in reference to ships, but it seems to have peaked to the top of my attention recently, another topic will sone turn up having me post a million things on it, bu for the moment this is it. Jk Rowling has REPEATEDLY SAID in interviews that Harry will NOT end up with Hermione, however(I am a ardent R/H, by the way) why would she say this so explicitly? I think (but deperately pray against) that she may just be trying to lure everyone into think this way before WHAM! massive H/H relationship. Okay, far fetched, but how many times has she said it, a lot, I looked up every interview(well, someone did it for me and put it on a site). I pray it isn't another POA situation a la Sirius Black. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 22:23:24 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:23:24 -0000 Subject: Metamorphmagus!Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77251 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > Remember when Harry was little and he grew all his hair back over > night? You think maybe Harry's a meta? Seems to me that could come > in handy when he battles Lord Thingy, and when he eventually becomes > an auror. I'd thought of that possibility myself, and posted the question at The-Leaky-Caudron.org. Not much discussion followed, but most others didn't seem to like the idea, pointing out Harry's unruly hair and scar, while others pointed out that Tonks had to concentrate rather hard to bring about a change. I think he has the potential to be a metamorphmagus, and that we shall yet see this. One item to contemplate in this regard is that he has (until well into OotP) idolized both his parents. While he may well have his father's looks and his mother's eyes by genetic inheritance, how do we explain the unruly hair? It was apparently an affectation on his father's part, but has Harry unwittingly chosen to make his hair unruly like his father's all these years, based upon submerged memories of James? From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 22:54:20 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:54:20 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" wrote: > "Richard" wrote: > > JKR has said that a Weasley will die. > > me, Occam: > > Ooooh, call me a muggle but I did not know that! When did she say it, > where, do you have a source? > > Richard: > > My leading candidates are, in order of my perception of probability, > Ron, Molly and Percy. > > me, Occam: > > What about the Twins? With all that good magic they've been conjuring > getting Wheezes up and running, you know they've got skills to share > with the OoP. Remember the Extendable Ears? Remember when they read > Molly the riot act when she tries to send them to bed before Sirius > tells Harry about the OoP, don't they argue how they're of age? Don't > they say they want to join the Order? *If* a Weasley has to die (I > still need to be convinced JKR said that!), I vote for either Fred or > George, or both, going down in a blaze of glory, perhaps knowingly > and with a wink and a nod at the readers, like Butch and Sundance. > Just like they left Hogwarts. As I said, there are good reasons for selecting each Weasley as the future corpse-in-chief. The problem is figuring out which is the best arguement for each, dealing with pertinent objections, and then selecting which appears the most convincing of all. There is one serious problem with this, though. JKR can "kill" who she pleases for reasons that have nothing to do with any speculation on our part. Fred and George certainly display an appalling recklessness at times, but they are also now somewhat off to the side in all this, being in business for themselves and apparently doing quite well. And will Voldemort be so brave as to mount an attack within the confines of Diagon Alley? I have my doubts. The Death Eaters seem to be more comfortable in ambushing folks, or attacking them when they are isolated. Ginny has been mentioned by some, especially as JKR has also said that a "special fan" of Harry's will die ... though I don't recall if that interview was prior to the release of OotP, in which case that "fan" could have been Sirius. If after, or if not Sirius, we have a short list of "special" fans that includes the Creevey brothers and Dobby. As I don't see Ginny in the "fan" role anymore, but as a friend and to some extent colleague, I think that if she does die it will be as a Weasley and not as a fan. Back on the topic of Ron, let's not forget the tendency for Ron's off- hand predictions to come true, although not always with the predicted timing. (Things he says CAN'T happen also have a way of coming true, but that kinda supports the predictions observation, else how would Ron have so consistently come up with the right idea?) He and Harry did spend a good deal of time predicting their imminent tragic demises, after all. PS: I take it your first name is William ... if so, I love your razor. From redfish5 at onetel.com Thu Aug 14 22:55:04 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:55:04 -0000 Subject: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" wrote: > I'm re-reading CoS. Harry gets a toothpick for Xmas from the > Dursley's with a note asking him to see if he can stay at Hogwarts > for the summer holidays, too. I'm at work so I don't have a page > reference, but if you're browsing the book this is the time when the > Polyjuice Potion is about ready and the Trio and Malfoy stay at > Hogwarts for Christmas. > > What the h*** is Petunia thinking? Is this a FLINT? Since OoP we know > that Petunia knows Harry has to come home to keep LV off his back, > and we also know that Petunia has completely (if grudingly) accepted > this burden. Are we to assume she had nothing to do with the note, > that it was from Vernon Dursley and not "the Dursleys?" > > -- Occam Harry would be just as safe as Hogwarts as long as Albus Dumbledore is there, but obviously, Dumbledore wants his own holiday, but you can't blame Petunia and the Dursleys for trying. From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 00:56:45 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:56:45 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote:> > > > > > I do know that she has in a couple of interviews stated that the > deaths will continue, and that one in particular will make her cry > when she writes it. Are you sure she wasn't just referring so writing about Sirius's death? His death seems to me to be the only time she has talked about crying over in any interview. I just think that if she said that a Weasley would die it would have been publicized a lot by now! I respectfully suggest that maybe you mistaken about this. Jacquie From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 22:58:40 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 22:58:40 -0000 Subject: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77255 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" wrote: > What the h*** is Petunia thinking? Is this a FLINT? Since OoP we know > that Petunia knows Harry has to come home to keep LV off his back, > and we also know that Petunia has completely (if grudingly) accepted > this burden. Are we to assume she had nothing to do with the note, > that it was from Vernon Dursley and not "the Dursleys?" I can just see Petunia insisting to her husband that it is in fact Christmas, and that they should send SOMEthing to Harry. He scowls a bit, tells her he'll take care of it, then sends the toothpick and note to "take care of it." She knows she has to keep him, he has no desire to do any such thing. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 23:05:37 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:05:37 -0000 Subject: Dragons, Lily, and eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "daelyn_duprer" wrote: > Hasn't it been speculated that Godric's Hollow is in Wales? If so, > could it be the Evan's ancestral cottage? Perhaps way way back > before all this mudblood bigotry the Evans and Godric Gryffindor > were friends. Interesting, but admittedly a very obscure connection. My personal, largely baseless, and decidedly faux-humble opinion is that the reason that they were in Godric's Hollow is because one or the other of them was a direct descendant of Godric Gryffindor, which would also help explain why Harry is a true enough Gryffindor to pull Godric's sword out of the sorting hat. Descent would, of course, be by distaff line at least once to account for the "Potter" or "Evans." From Lolatsukino at aol.com Thu Aug 14 23:09:10 2003 From: Lolatsukino at aol.com (Kelly) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:09:10 -0000 Subject: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77257 Occam wrote: > I'm re-reading CoS. Harry gets a toothpick for Xmas from the > Dursley's with a note asking him to see if he can stay at Hogwarts > for the summer holidays, too. What the h*** is Petunia thinking? Is this a FLINT? Since OoP we know > that Petunia knows Harry has to come home to keep LV off his back, > and we also know that Petunia has completely (if grudingly) accepted > this burden. Are we to assume she had nothing to do with the note, > that it was from Vernon Dursley and not "the Dursleys?" I definitely don't think it's a FLINT. I think it is a perfect example of why Dumbledore sent Petunia that Howler in OOTP. Old man (evil too, if you ask me) that he is, he knew that Petunia was likely slipping away from her original promise. After all it had been 14 full years (pre-OOTP) that Dumbledore left Petunia to her own devices without any sort of a reminder of its importance (that we know of). That said, you also raise the equally likely possibility that Vernon alone could have been the one to slip Harry that little note with his prized toothpick. Neither situation would surprise me. Kelly, who is relieved to know that Vernon cares about the state of Harry's gums. From truebeliever60 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 14 23:20:41 2003 From: truebeliever60 at hotmail.com (truebeliever60) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:20:41 -0000 Subject: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" wrote: > I'm re-reading CoS. Harry gets a toothpick for Xmas from the > Dursley's with a note asking him to see if he can stay at Hogwarts > for the summer holidays, too. I'm at work so I don't have a page > reference, but if you're browsing the book this is the time when the > Polyjuice Potion is about ready and the Trio and Malfoy stay at > Hogwarts for Christmas. > > What the h*** is Petunia thinking? Is this a FLINT? Since OoP we know > that Petunia knows Harry has to come home to keep LV off his back, > and we also know that Petunia has completely (if grudingly) accepted > this burden. Are we to assume she had nothing to do with the note, > that it was from Vernon Dursley and not "the Dursleys?" Well, that could be a concern. But really, didn't dumbledore say it only took one visit home a year to call it "home"? They didn't suggest he make Hogwarts his new home, just that he extend his visit. Petunia is most likely aware that spending his summers there is sufficient for the deal to work. Tim From pruneau934 at wanadoo.fr Thu Aug 14 23:46:18 2003 From: pruneau934 at wanadoo.fr (Pruneau) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:46:18 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77259 Jonathan wrote: > > For example.. OoP 16/342 (US) it sounds like a big secret that > > Harry can cast a Patronus. > > > > But, in PoA 13/262, Harry casts a Patronus *in the middle of a > > Quidditch match*. You'd think a few Hogwarts students might have > > noticed then. and bboy_mn replied: > I don't think it's fair to say that no one knows what Harry Patronus > looks like, but I think it's fair to say that few understood it, and > those few didn't really spread the word around. now me (Pruneau): I don't think Harry's Patronus was corporeal at the Quidditch match. First, in chapter 21 (Hermione's secret) of PoA, he performs what I think is his first *real* Patronus: 'And out af the end of his wand burst, not a shapeless cloud of mist, but a blinding, dazzling, silver animal.' (p.300 Bloomsbury paperback) I understood it was the first time he succeeded in doing a Patronus. And second, in OotP, Lupin asks Harry what form his Patronus takes to check he really *is* Harry. If Harry's Patronus at the Quidditch match had been corporeal, Lupin would have known, and he would also have known that dozens, if not hundreds, of students, might have seen this Patronus. Maybe Theodore Nott could have seen it, and told his father, just in case it could be useful. But Lupin did ask that question to Harry, as a question only Harry could answer. Of course, he might have asked the first question he thought of, just to reassure Moody, but I doubt it. If Lupin had been aware that there was a chance that a DE could know that Harry's Patronus was a stag, he would have asked another question (such as "What form does a Boggart take in front of you?" - only Harry and Lupin could answer that one) But he chose the Patronus, so I assume that very few people (only Lupin, Hermione, and maybe Snape, Ron and Sirius) knew it was a stag. So IMHO, the Quidditch Patronus was just a (large) silvery wisp of vapour. Pruneau From summerdazeno1 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 00:15:23 2003 From: summerdazeno1 at yahoo.com (summerdazeno1) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:15:23 -0000 Subject: Blaise Zabini (Slytherin boy) theory based on his first name. Another theoy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77260 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "neith_seshat" > > > > > > > > I would imagine that Zabini is a boy (as per the thread title). > > Blaise was not only Merlin's tutor but also the first name of the > > notable mathematician Blaise Pascal.... > > > > Geoff > > Pardon me, if my memory of the Arthurian legend is a bit off, but > wasn't the name of Merlin's tutor Galapas? See "The Hollow Hills" by > Mary Stewart. > > Donna I don't have the Hollow Hills in front of me, but Merlin had another tutor after he went to live with his father, Ambrosius. Wasn't his name Blaise or something similar? Summer From jwright at amdocs.com Fri Aug 15 00:31:10 2003 From: jwright at amdocs.com (pitaprh) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:31:10 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77261 Where has it been said that a Weasley is going to die? From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 01:03:39 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:03:39 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus Mimbletonia (was Neville's Wand) In-Reply-To: <43820566.5A7BCD8F.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77262 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: The bubblegum wrapper makes me really wonder. There has to be a reason Neville's mom handed it to him -- when I get my copy of OoP back, I'm going to check it out. :) I wish I had it with me now. > > What could bubblegum symbolize? Hasn't she given him a lot of them already? Do the wrappers say anything on them? Have we ever heard of bubblegum wrappers before in the series? Could bubblegum be a device to save the world from LV? ;) > > Brief Chronicles Me: The wrappers are from Droobles Best Blowing Gum, aka Drobbles Blowing Gum. Lots of people are going on about finding an anagram in the name of the gum. I don't have any strong theory on what the significance of the gum actually is, only that it probably *is* significant. Actually, I think I'll look up what effects the gum has...I think they were the ones that made the giant bubbles that wouldn't pop or something (correct me if I'm wrong). I'd like to know where they're getting this gum in the first place! Maybe Great Uncle Algie's sending it, and maybe he's put some kind of plant extract in it that's making them stay insane. Or maybe Alice knows that Gran is giving Neville some gum that's tainted, maybe it makes him clumsy/forgetful. I really think we can figure this out if we try. James Redmont From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:35:05 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:35:05 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77263 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > > George, or both, going down in a blaze of glory, perhaps knowingly > > and with a wink and a nod at the readers, like Butch and Sundance. > > Just like they left Hogwarts. > > > > -- Occam > > I see where your going with that and you certainly have a valid point > in thinking Fred & George might be killed. > > Although, I'm thinking Percy. I realize many out there think Percy > isn't so bad. But i absolutely hate the bugger right now. > > I can see Percy being redeemed in only 2 ways. First, If he does > turn out to be working for the OOP OR if he somehow sacrifices > himself for his family or the OOP. > > No matter how the story goes, unless one of those ways occurs ill > never forgive him. Even if JKR has everyone else forgive. > > Joe Hi, If Percy is working for the OOP, why did he send his jumper back to his mom at x-mas and Molly getting so upset? I don't see why he would have had to send it back. I do hope that it would be Charlie. I do like Charlie but he has not been a major character so I don't have the attachment to him that I do the others. Just me being selfish and still angry with Percy even tho some feel he is really good underneath. Susan From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 15 00:45:56 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:45:56 -0000 Subject: Mundungus and the Prophecy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77264 Does anyone else think that Mundungus is the LV informant that was thrown out of the Hogshead the night Trelawney recited the prophecy? He is indebted to Dumbledore for getting him out of a tight spot. Being found out and thrown out of the Hogshead before hearing the whole prophecy and then LV losing his power because of the error could put him in a very tight spot. Plus he has to go to the Hogshead in disguise because he got on the wrong side of the owner/bartender years ago...... Susan From subrosax at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 01:09:10 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:09:10 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77265 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > That's not even my main problem with the undead thing. It's the > aging. We've now seen Snape as child, as a teenager, aging perfectly > normally. That's just not undead. If the point of Vampires is that > they have somthing to do with immortality, then what's with the > parents, the childhood, the aging? > > I'm wondering if Lupin's Vampire-tease may not have been related to > Snape having had some vampire-thing in school-- I mean beeing keen on > them or wanting to be one. It's not a great > explanation, but I've been trying to think of some other Snape/Vampire > connection and that's the best I could come up with. > > Sydney Exactly! What is with the parents? I'm no expert, but I always understood that vampires were created by one vampire biting a person, not by two adult vampires getting it on. Even if one of the parents were human, I imagine the vampire parent would be infertile. To me, that would be a natural by-product of being undead. We also see teenaged Snape sitting in a dark bedroom. In my experience, bedrooms tend to have beds in them. Why is he sleeping in a bed? Surely the bed isn't there for decoration. What gives? Also, how the hell is Snape supposed to owe a life-debt to James if he's UNDEAD?!! If Snape is a vampire, he's the crappiest one in literary history. He walks around in daylight, eats normal food, looks in mirrors, sleeps in a bed, has cruddy yellow teeth, dirty underpants and, apparently, isn't even immortal. Next thing you know, we'll be seeing him in church! Allyson From rvotaw at i-55.com Fri Aug 15 01:13:29 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 20:13:29 -0500 Subject: FILK: Drift Away Message-ID: <008401c362ca$70e57e70$bda2cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 77266 Disclaimer first of all. This is my first attempt at a FILK, I am not a talented Filker like so many others on this list, and I don't even know what possessed me to try, other than being bored during my second day of faculty meetings. So there. The title is "Drift Away" from Harry's point of view, OoP, during the time he had detention with Umbridge, to the song "Drift Away" (Uncle Kracker--somebody else did it first, but I can't remember who). I tried in vain to find a sound file someplace out there, no luck. (Other than the 20 odd second clip on Amazon.com, that is) Verse 1 Every evenin' in detention I look out the window at the pitch Out there's a game that I wanna play I'm feelin' the pain, tryin' to keep sane Chorus Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away Verse 2 Beginnin' to think that I've lost my mind I don't understand what's happenin' here All that I did was tell the truth Now I'm tryin' to hide my pain from you Chorus Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away Verse 3/Bridge And when my hand is bleedin' I need anything to soothe me And when I'm feelin' down My Firebolt's comin' through to help me Thanks for the freedom you've given me I'll take my broom & fly away The wind & the clouds & the sunshine All help me along, makin' me free Chorus Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away ____________ Okay, that's all folks. :) Richelle [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 01:15:52 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:15:52 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77267 Me: > > Why does everybody keep saying that?? P. 176, U.S. version: > > > > "No!" Mrs. Weasley moaned. "No...riddikulus! Riddikulus! > > RIDDIKULUS!" > > > > Crack. Dead twins. Crack. Dead Percy. Crack. Dead Harry... Richard: >Obviously because old age is getting the better of me ... > Actually, it was a simple error, as what I WANTED to say at one point > is that we were likley seeing a portion of a sequence that might have > been repetitive, using that as a counter-arguement for one of my > hypotheses ... Me: *blushes* I'm really sorry. I've been testy all day. Given the amount of time she was up there, I'm pretty sure there was some sort of cycle. James Redmont From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 01:21:54 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:21:54 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "pitaprh" wrote: > Where has it been said that a Weasley is going to die? -- Richard wrote: > > > >I *THINK* it was in a Barnes and Nobles interview a couple of years >ago, but can't remember precisely. I'll see if I can dig it up. >I do know that she has in a couple of interviews stated that the >deaths will continue, and that one in particular will make her cry >when she writes it. As Ron is based loosely on a close friend of >hers (again from an interview I'll have to dig up), that would fit >Ron, even if I think she would cry a great deal over "killing" >Dumbledore, Hagrid, Mr. or Mrs. Weasley, et al. ... She does seem to >love so many of her characters! My reply: I think Richard is mistaken, the only thing I have seen is where she talks about Sirius's death making her cry. IF ANYBODY CAN COME UP WITH AN INTERVIEW STATING JKR SAID A WEASLEY WILL DIE, PLEASE POST IT. I am not saying that one won't (it especially worries me when Ron joked about tea leaves saying, die, Ron, die), but it really bothers me when people say, JKR said.... and then can't find an interview transcript to back it up!!! Jacquie From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 01:23:26 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:23:26 -0000 Subject: Metamorphmagus!Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > > I'd thought of that possibility myself, and posted the question at > The-Leaky-Caudron.org. Not much discussion followed, but most others > didn't seem to like the idea, pointing out Harry's unruly hair and > scar, while others pointed out that Tonks had to concentrate rather > hard to bring about a change. > > I think he has the potential to be a metamorphmagus, and that we > shall yet see this. One item to contemplate in this regard is that > he has (until well into OotP) idolized both his parents. While he > may well have his father's looks and his mother's eyes by genetic > inheritance, how do we explain the unruly hair? It was apparently an > affectation on his father's part, but has Harry unwittingly chosen to > make his hair unruly like his father's all these years, based upon > submerged memories of James? Me: Very interesting. I think maybe he would need to be trained up a bit before he could do it, but as to whether or not he *is* a meta, why not? He grew the hair back when he *really* wanted to. And even though he tries to hide his scar sometimes, he's admitted it's the only part of his appearance he likes. And who knows, he might have gotten a bit of perverse pleasure by having his hair so crazy...Vernon *hated* it! James Redmont From estesrandy at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 01:50:55 2003 From: estesrandy at yahoo.com (Randy) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:50:55 -0000 Subject: HP FILK Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77270 Hi, I have not posted for a long time on this list. I thought I would share a few items. I posted this on another list awhile back. DJ takes to microphone....I'd like to dedicate the following to Penny and Carole and all you lovely ladies out there in cyberspace.... After reading all the posts on this "old crowd" list, I feel we should follow this one up with an old Beatles' tune: sung to the tune of Hey, You've Got to Hide Your Love Away! By Lennon & McCartney Hey, She Just Can't Kill off Sirius Black! words by Randy Estes Here I stand book in hand Just got back from the mall. Now he's gone I can't go on Feelin' two foot small. I read Book four and yelled for more I waited three long years Then I find she's lost her mind I'm fighting back the tears! Hey, She just can't kill off Sirius Black! Hey, She's got to bring my Sirius Back! Waited in line to get Book five I stayed up way too long Then I read that my baby's dead How could things go so wrong? How can she say to me Harry will find a way. I don't care cause it's just not fair Sirius Black must stay! Hey, She just can't kill off Sirius Black! Hey, She's got to bring my Sirius Back! JKR, wherever you are You've got some explaining to do! Listen hon, our Fanfics aren't done And he's our favorite dude! Hey, You just can't kill off Sirius Black! Hey, Go find some way to bring him back! Hey, You just can't kill off Sirius Black! Hey, Find a way to bring Padfoot Back! musical interlude.... JKR's response... sung to the tune of We Can Work it Out by the Beatles "I Just Wrote Him Out!" words by Randy Estes Try to see it my way I could get it right and still you'd think that its all wrong! Why should I do it your way? If I left him in, then these books would all be twice as long! What's this all about? I just wrote him out! These books aren't that short and there's no time For fussing and fighting my friends. I have always thought these characters were mine So I will ask you once again. Try to see it my way Only time will tell if I am right or I am wrong. It's not your story anyway And who's this idiot who keeps writing these stupid songs! :0) What's this all about? I just wrote him out! These books aren't that short and there's no time For fussing and fighting my friends. I have always thought these characters were mine So I will ask you once again. Try to see it my way I'm the one in charge and there are things that you don't know. Why should I do it your way? My husband's getting jealous and said that Padfoot's got to go! What's this all about? I just wrote him out! music fades...."That's another back to back hit request on WJKR ...All Potter....All the time...." Red Eye Randy signing off... From estesrandy at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 01:52:54 2003 From: estesrandy at yahoo.com (Randy) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:52:54 -0000 Subject: yet another FILK The OOPS Song Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77271 This song is sung to the tune of "I am the very model of a Modern British General" by Gilbert and Sullivan.... The OOPS Song .... By Randy Estes I had a dream I'm running down a corridor that's filled with doors. I sometimes get the feeling that I'm turning into Voldemort. The Phoenix Order's taking flight, And Weasley suffers a snake bite And Hagrid looks a horrid sight. Hey, what's that Blueish Shining Light? The Orders taking me to visit Number 12, Grimmaud Place. The pictures started screaming when Tonks knocked a troll's leg out of place. The house has elf heads on the wall, And Percy's not returning calls. And Harry's about to lose it all When Sirius takes no curtain call. (Background Group starts to sing:) If you're getting tired of this song. He's sorry he meant nothing wrong! But JK Rowling takes too long Where do these fans of hers belong? We meet a nasty teacher who keeps trying to take over here. There's never been a Dark Arts teacher that could last more than one year. The Hogwarts High Inquisitor Keeps tabs on Every Professor. Then shows Trelawney to the door. And next she's after Dumbledore. So Harry starts the DA to prepare kids to fight Voldemort. He had to find something to do. He can't play Quidditch anymore. And Fred and George start to attack, While Harry contacts Sirius Black. And Hagrid brings a Giant back Before he finally gets the sack! (Background Group sings...) If you're getting tired of this song He's sorry he meant nothing wrong! But JK Rowling takes too long We don't know where her fans belong! Professor Snape was ordered to teach young Harry Occumency. When Snape was forced to leave the room, Harry saw Snape's worst memory! Where James exposed Snape's underwear Sirius and Lupin did not care If Snape's feelings were trampled there. When Snape found Harry, his teeth were bared! The Centaurs carry off Umbridge and do things we wish we could see. Then Harry and the gang go to the Department of Mysteries. The Death Eaters are waiting there. The doors keep spinning everywhere. And Brains go flying through the air The battle leaves us in dispair. The Death Eaters try to steal prophecies and then get out of there. The wands are firing, people shouting, bodies lying everywhere. Harry and Neville drop the ball. Voldemorte misses it after all. And Dumbledore makes Tom look small And Fudge is forced to believe it all! (Background Group sings:) We're not sure where this song belongs He's sorry he meant nothing wrong But JK Rowling takes too long And now we're finished with this song! (Red Eye Randy bows and falls off the stage...) From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Fri Aug 15 01:50:29 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:50:29 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase with her interviews?? References: Message-ID: <004b01c362cf$9b4860b0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 77272 ---sebfish5 said: To fellow I realise this is another post by me in reference to ships, but it seems to have peaked to the top of my attention recently, another topic will sone turn up having me post a million things on it, bu for the moment this is it. Jk Rowling has REPEATEDLY SAID in interviews that Harry will NOT end up with Hermione, however(I am a ardent R/H, by the way) why would she say this so explicitly? I think (but deperately pray against) that she may just be trying to lure everyone into think this way before WHAM! massive H/H relationship. Okay, far fetched, but how many times has she said it, a lot, I looked up every interview(well, someone did it for me and put it on a site). I pray it isn't another POA situation a la Sirius Black. Joj says: You've brought up something I've been wondering about. I know JKR- -refuses to answer questions -misdirects -gives partial answers Has she ever out-right lied so far? Anything she has said that we know isn't true? I'm sure she would do it for the greater good. I'm just wondering if we've any proof yet. Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 01:56:12 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:56:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Presenting: SILK GOWNS Message-ID: <14a.22cc9fb7.2c6d97bc@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77273 In a message dated 8/14/2003 3:09:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, miss_america_03 at yahoo.com writes: > Where does it refer to Silk gowns in the canon? just wondering > Its a very neat anagram but I dont believe JKR would think that > much into it.. just doesnt seem that way to me > Me: Actually, it's an acronym, not an anagram, and... it doesn't. SILK GOWNS is simply a name to my theory(obtained via the acronym), not the theory itself. It's a way to refer to what I'm talking about without writng a novel every time. The theory itself does have what I consider supporting canon. You don't have to support the theory, of course, but I know I'm not the only one! :) ~RSFJenny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From estesrandy at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 02:06:26 2003 From: estesrandy at yahoo.com (Randy) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:06:26 -0000 Subject: HP BOOK 5 Word Scramble Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77274 I wrote this for another list but no responses came back. If anyone is interested in killing time, try to unscramble the following phrases from Book 5. The words themselves have no significance, only the letters matter. (example: HARRY POTTER = HER TOP RAT YR) HP Book 5 Word Scramble Game Unscramble the letters to make phrases related to Harry Potter Book 5. Send your guesses to estesrandy at yahoo.com . I will be happy to send you the answers in reply. 1. Vellma Petigrew Camel Mud Burn 2. Nelsons Scumo Cycle 3. Hire the Open Fox Rod 4. A Lame Ben Blunt Often Lost His Canoe Dock 5. No Lo Dog Value 6. Teen Read Sex Lab 7. Stain Dilemma is Judicious For Gallant Shop Managers. 8. Bless Or Burn Porky P- Flag 9. W Never Quit Their Bible 10. Bum Sold Pig Dresser For Oreo 11. Rush Here, Feel Hot Cake From meltowne at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 02:09:43 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:09:43 -0000 Subject: Harry after Hogwarts In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77275 "occam6363" wrote: How did he get to be the subject of a prophecy in the first place? There is probably something independently special about him. Me: If we think about the significant dates in the HP books, Halloween comes up twice - not just the date LV attacked Harry, but also the approoximate date he was conceived. I'm sure that is significant - don't know if his parents tried to conceive that night knowing it might produce power, or what. Melinda From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 02:20:18 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:20:18 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus Mimbletonia (was Neville's Wand) In-Reply-To: <43820566.5A7BCD8F.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > This is where you picked me up to join your theory. I thought the scene was meaningful and packed with things I wasn't catching onto, and this could be part of the mystery. > > There's *clearly* something more going on with Neville, that's accepted. But Gran and his uncle are likely part of his mystery, too. The bubblegum wrapper makes me really wonder. There has to be a reason Neville's mom handed it to him -- when I get my copy of OoP back, I'm going to check it out. :) I wish I had it with me now. > > What could bubblegum symbolize? Hasn't she given him a lot of them already? Do the wrappers say anything on them? Have we ever heard of bubblegum wrappers before in the series? Could bubblegum be a device to save the world from LV? ;) > > Brief Chronicles Me: I just read through the whole hospital part, and when they get in the queue to find out where Mr. Weasley's room is, (p. 486 U.S. version)...well let me quote: A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to the front of the queue now. "I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed. "Ward forty-nine, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time," said the witch dismissively. "He's completely addled, you know, still thinks he's a teapot....Next!" Could this be Great Uncle Algie, delivering the devil's snare?? James Redmont From kfc4588 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 02:53:37 2003 From: kfc4588 at yahoo.com (kfc4588) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:53:37 -0000 Subject: FILK: Drift Away In-Reply-To: <008401c362ca$70e57e70$bda2cdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > Disclaimer first of all. This is my first attempt at a FILK, I am not a talented Filker like so many others on this list, and I don't even know what possessed me to try, other than being bored during my second day of faculty meetings. So there. > > The title is "Drift Away" from Harry's point of view, OoP, during the time he had detention with Umbridge, to the song "Drift Away" (Uncle Kracker--somebody else did it first, but I can't remember who). I tried in vain to find a sound file someplace out there, no luck. (Other than the 20 odd second clip on Amazon.com, that is) > > Verse 1 > > Every evenin' in detention > I look out the window at the pitch > Out there's a game that I wanna play > I'm feelin' the pain, tryin' to keep sane > > Chorus > > Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly > I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away > Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly > I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away > > Verse 2 > > Beginnin' to think that I've lost my mind > I don't understand what's happenin' here > All that I did was tell the truth > Now I'm tryin' to hide my pain from you > > Chorus > > Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly > I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away > Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly > I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away > > Verse 3/Bridge > > And when my hand is bleedin' > I need anything to soothe me > And when I'm feelin' down > My Firebolt's comin' through to help me > Thanks for the freedom you've given me > I'll take my broom & fly away > The wind & the clouds & the sunshine > All help me along, makin' me free > > Chorus > > Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly > I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away > Oh, give me my Firebolt and let me fly > I wanna get lost in the sky above and drift away > > ____________ > Okay, that's all folks. :) > > Richelle > > just a quick additon (love the FILK by the way) dobie gray did the first version and a unclecracker.com they have the full version... just a quickie! -Casey- From trinity61us at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 04:05:54 2003 From: trinity61us at yahoo.com (alex fox) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:05:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death clues In-Reply-To: <3F3BC3B8.5060201@lineone.net> Message-ID: <20030815040554.17455.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77278 Wow! That is SO very interesting! I'm glad I'm re-reading (4th time) OOP after all the studying I have done on HPFGU! It has taken on a whole new life! And it is taking a LOT longer to read this time! Paying attention to every little detail! Sharp eyes, Christian! Keep it up! Alex Fox christian wrote: looking on mugglenet today i found a very interesting death clue: " In St. Mungo?s, when they are going to visit Mr. Weasley- 'They climbed a flight of stairs and entered the "Creature-Induced Injuries" corridor, where the second door on the right bore the words 'DANGEROUS' DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES.' If you put these words on a sign, they would read Creature-Induced Injuries Dangerous Dai Llewellyn Ward Serious Bites Take the first word of each of these and what do you get get? Creature Dangeous Dai Serious? No - Kreacher dangerous, Die Sirius..." very interesting. wow. now we know why it took JK 3 years to complete OotP!!! has anyone found any other clues to future events? Christian Miles :-) ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 04:09:10 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:09:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past m... Message-ID: <77.1703ffe6.2c6db6e6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77279 In a message dated 8/14/03 3:17:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time, lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com writes: > That said, if Dumbledore did "see through Tom" and held him > accountable for actions that he had not performed, then he is the > biggest fraud of all! I had always assumed that the 'saw through me' comment was concerning the opening of the Chamber, the attacks by the Basilisk, and Myrtle's death. Then!Riddle suspected that DD knew that Riddle had been responsible but couldn't prove it. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Lynx412 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 04:27:07 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:27:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Weasley Christian Names Message-ID: <15d.2308eb23.2c6dbb1b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77280 I had a weird thought on this naming thread. We know that JKR tends to use names with linked, clued meanings...and suddenly I remembered another Percy. If his name is a clue to what is going on, I love it. Surely everyone here has heard of Sir Percy Blakeney, the Scarlet Pimpernel? Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 05:06:34 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:06:34 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77281 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "holly_phoenix_11" wrote: To Dumbledore, Tom Riddle is just > Tom. He could never be Voldemort, because he could never exceed > Dumbedore in the magical abilities. His weaknesses make him so > obvious to DD, that he can't expect any kind of credit from him. > > cheers > holly_phoenix_11 This actually goes back to my original observation, that Dumbledore said he was trying "to get people to call LV by his "proper name: Voldemort." I agree that Dumbledore was trying to get behind Tom's defenses in the battle. But why make such a point of saying Voldemort was his "proper name" in the beginning? Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 05:37:01 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:37:01 -0000 Subject: Petunia?! (formerly Christmas Gifts from Dursleys) In-Reply-To: <65A972A8.46469EA9.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/14/2003 1:42:07 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Brookeshanks writes: > > > why would Petunia take care to make sure that Harry remains protected? She obviously knows more than we thought she did. How much does she know? How far would Aunt Petunia go to protect Harry in a crisis? Could her apparent loathing of him ever subside? Any thoughts? > > I think you have a good point -- her gifts may have a protective magical quality to them and DD may have required that she send *something* while he's at Hogwarts. Here's my question: Does he keep the things she sends, or does he chuck them? How useful could they be? > > But in response to yours: I believe that DD has told her about Azkaban, which is why she seems to know all about it better than other aspects of the WW. If Petunia has heard about and fears Azkaban, she'll obey DD's every wish. For all we know, Petunia may actually be considered a potential inmate if she refuses to protect Harry. She may be held responsible by a magically-binding contract. > > Brief Chronicles I think Petunia's attitude towards Harry is the same as Snape's, except in reaction to jealousy over his mother instead of hatred for his father. However, I still believe that she knows much more about the WW than she has ever let on. Knowledge of Azkaban is only one example. Her reaction when Harry told the Dursleys that Voldemort had returned was not a muggle reaction. She seemed to know, not only Voldemort's name, but the implications of his return. Dumbledore may have told her about Azkaban, but I don't think would have threatened her with it. And being described as that "awful boy" (or whatever the exact quote) doesn't fit Dumbledore. IMHO it strikes me as a childish threat for him to have made and is out of character. He never has to tell students "do this or I will..." He is able to get his point across while being polite and soft-spoken. Ravenclaw Bookworm From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 05:49:38 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:49:38 -0000 Subject: Hideous Morning (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77283 Inspired by Veresna's Ussep Sound of Magic (a CoS musical using the Sound of Music score) and Wendy's on-going Hogwarts Story (from West Side Story), here's the opening song from a GoF musical I'll be working on over the next few weeks, A!Kedavra, based on Rodgers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma! Hideous Morning To the tune of Beautiful Morning, from Oklahoma Dedicated to Haggridd, for all his support THE SCENE: Before the Riddle House. Enter LORD VOLDEMORT and WORMTAIL, the former in an expansive mood. VOLDEMORT: There's a bleak dreary home that's my mansion I've a nostalgic glow for this mansion I recall the day I first used an AK When three of my family got blown away WORMTAIL: Oh, what a hideous morning Oh, what a hideous face I've insidious feelins Since I've been stuck in this place VOLDEMORT: All my minions are schemin' and plottin' All my minions are schemin' and plottin' When Hogwarts returns later this Fall we use A most fiendish plan that involves Polyjuice Oh, what a dutiful minion Oh, what a beautiful plan Run by my dutiful minion Who got sprung from Azkaban All my spells conjure up darkest magic All my spells conjure up darkest magic Nagini's so sneaky, she don't miss a trick An' an ol' mumblin' Muggle departs from the Quick .. (Two hundred miles away, HARRY awakens in a cold sweat) HARRY Oh, what a hideous warning Oh, what a hideous dream Oh, how my curse scar is burnin' (He begins writing a letter to Sirius) I'm so glad Black's on my team I'm so glad Black's on my team! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 05:52:43 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:52:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase with her interviews?? In-Reply-To: <004b01c362cf$9b4860b0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > > ---sebfish5 said: > Jk Rowling has REPEATEDLY SAID in interviews that Harry will NOT > end up with Hermione, however(I am a ardent R/H, by the way) why > would she say this so explicitly? I think (but deperately pray > against) that she may just be trying to lure everyone into think > this way before WHAM! massive H/H relationship. I haven't been able to get the TV away from the kids long enough (including my husband at times;) the check it, but I remember in JKR's interview on the CoS DVD that there was a hint of a romantic something put into that movie that didn't show up in the books until GoF. The only thing I can think of that fits this is Hermione's reaction to Harry and Ron when she enters the Great Hall at the end. She is comfortable with Harry, but suddenly seems nervious around Ron and shakes his hand instead of hugging him - a typical teen crush reaction. This scene is not in the book, but does hint at a Ron/Hermione SHIP. When I have a chance to watch what *I* want to see I'll check it out... Unless one of you gets to it first . Ravenclaw Bookworm From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 06:17:47 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 23:17:47 -0700 Subject: FILKLET - "Delores" Message-ID: <410-22003851561747189@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77285 This one is NOT part of "Hogwarts Story," but instead is just a teensy, tiny little filklet that popped into my head while I was putting my son to bed this evening. It's small, but hopefully you'll get a moment or two of enjoyment from it. :-) "Delores" An OoP filk to "Her Majesty," by the Beatles HARRY: Delores is a nasty old girl, And she's always got a lot to say. Delores is a nasty old girl, New decrees comin' every day. I want to tell her that the Dark Lord is back, But on my hand her quill is cutting lines. Delores is a nasty old girl, I really wish that she'd resign, oh yeah, I really wish that she'd resign. Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 15 04:12:24 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:12:24 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher References: Message-ID: <3F3C5DA8.1070105@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77286 feetmadeofclay wrote: > > English Common law requires that the justices be a self-administered > body distinguished from the legislative and the executive arms of > government. Fudge may repesent the excutive, Arthur's job may > represent the legislative since we know he writes laws even if he > doesn't pass them. I get the feeling bureaucrats like Arthur write > the laws, Fudge's team looks them over and they are sent directly to > the Queen for official signing. The Queen has nothing to do with wizarding law. The decrees emanating from the Ministry were signed by Fudge, not the Queen. And note that they were decrees, not laws passed by a legislature. The wizarding government more resembles that of the Soviet Union than it does the UK. The legislative, executive, and judicial functions are all contained in a single organization, with a single head, who is simultaneously chief executive, chief legislator, and chief judge. Not to mention secret trials in which the accused is not allowed counsel. > The problem here is that we've never got a clear picture of how the > WW is integrated into the english parlimentary system. It is clear > that Fudge is Her Majesty's Minister of Magic. It is quite clear from the books that the MoM is not connected at all with the rest of English government. The reports in the Prophet indicated that some people were shocked that Fudge had told the PM of Sirius's escape. Obviously, the PM is aware of the existence of the wizarding world, but that must be a very closely held secret--the 30-year rule does not apply. Go back as far as you like and you won't find a single reference to it in the PRO. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 15 04:48:14 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:48:14 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? References: Message-ID: <3F3C660E.1090502@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77287 Wanda Sherratt wrote: > > I have to disagree. There is no way JKR can remotely come close to > the power of writers like Tolkien and Austen, nor is she anywhere > near as literate as Lewis. "Warm flat beer" is not too bad as a > description; I enjoy a lot of things about the HP books (the first 4 > especially), the tricky plotting, the red herrings, the clever > windup tying all the loose ends together, the energy, the humour. > But literary style would come somewhere near the bottom of the > list. She's like Agatha Christie - a great read, but not a literary > master craftsman. It is somewhat unfair to compare the styles of Rowling with Austen and Tolkien, because she, unlike them (with the exception of the Hobbit), is writing to be read by children. That puts some rather severe limits on style. However, the comparison with Christie may be apt. People have been reading Christie for, what, 75 years now? And will continue to read her for the foreseeable future. Not bad for someone who is not a master literary craftsman. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 06:40:08 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:40:08 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77288 CW comments: > > My theory is that only baby Neville had been hidden by his parents, > maybe with his grandmother, and the two of them were protected by the > same Fidelius charm that the Potters used. His parents, the > Lestranges, remained out in the world fighting with the rest of the > Order, and Bellatrix was detailed off by Voldemort to try and torture > them into revealing his whereabouts. When she failed, Voldie guessed > it was a Fidelius charm and that Dorcas Meadows was the secret > keeper, so he went after her personally. But the Lestranges and Crouch Jr didn't torture the Longbottoms until after Voldemort tried to kill Harry and lost all his powers. They tortured the Longbottoms for information on the whereabouts of Voldemort. In GoF, Dumbledore (I think) mentions that the incident was so horrific because it occurred after things were settling down from the war. KathyK From sues0101 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 01:15:59 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:15:59 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MALFOY and HARRY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77289 >From: "miss_america_03" > >Does anyone other than myself believe that Malfoy and Harry will >make amends? Me (Sue): Coming from a dedicated Harry/Draco shipper, I certainly hope so. Apart from the fact that i seriously doubt that JK would do a gay hero, I still think that they should at least be able to be friends. Something about the sorting hat wanting the houses to unite and stand together makes me think that one of Harry and the DA's missions in the next book will be to tackle that problem. The DA is still not strong enough to tackle LV yet, they need a lot more experience, skill etc etc and in the next book, maybe the Minstry will be doing most of the fighting of the DE's and Harry's world will be condensed to Hogwarts, marturing, learning how to negotiate etc etc and building up the DA. JMHO of course Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. Get larger attachments - send/receive up to 3MB attachments (up to three times more per e-mail). Click here http://join.msn.com/ From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 06:47:45 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:47:45 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77290 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > Ali: > So you mean that the general populace shouldn't have the right to > decide whether something is great or not? What is the alternative a > body of say English Literature Professors dictating to us what is > quality or what is great? > Heaven forbid! Read both Tom Shippey and Michael White in their latest books on Tolkien about the reaction of the literary "establishment" to JRRT - especially when the polls persistently put LOTR at the top. I laughed out loud at Germaine Greer's reported reaction! I have loved the "Rings" since I first discovered it as a 15 year old a year after publication. I also think Harry Potter is great. They are different types of book - the style is different but they each have the ability to transport me away to new worlds where I can also use my own imagination to think through "What happened behind the scenes here?", "What would I have done here in Ron's shoes?" and this sort of mental exercise. Don't ask me to vote for one or the other - I'll spoil my ballot paper and vote for both of 'em! Geoff From sues0101 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 02:03:18 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:03:18 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77291 >From: "Wanda Sherratt" >>I have to disagree. There is no way JKR can remotely come close to >the power of writers like Tolkien and Austen, nor is she anywhere >near as literate as Lewis. "Warm flat beer" is not too bad as a >description; I enjoy a lot of things about the HP books (the first 4 >especially), the tricky plotting, the red herrings, the clever >windup tying all the loose ends together, the energy, the humour. >But literary style would come somewhere near the bottom of the >list. She's like Agatha Christie - a great read, but not a literary >master craftsman. > > I think that the > > series will be popular 50 years from now. > >I think it depends on how well she finishes the series. Another >volume like OotP would finish off a lot of the enthusiasm for HP. >But a good conclusion would probably establish it as a mid- >level "classic". For heavans sake, whoever said she wanted to write 'the great literary classic'? its a childrens book! I for one dont care how badly or well its written. I personally judge books on how they make me feel. I'm 42 years old and have been reading for most of my life. I think I have read every 'classic' and popular novel around (well not really - but thousands of book from all genres). I'm not an academic, neither are the children/teenagers these books are written for, and I find many of the 'classics' boring. YES BORING! For example, I cannot stand the lengthy wordy books of Tolkein, they make me want to give up reading them before I get to the point of the book. I didnt, I persevered, made it through but was dissatisfied. The whole three books of LOTR could have been put into one book after all. (and I love big long books) Neither of my kids (boys) can read them either. If it wasnt for the movies bringing them back into the limelight, they would not even have attempted them BUT both of them (16 and 13) are mad, crazy HP fans because they are written for them by someone who wants them to enjoy reading. In 50 years, many academics might not regard them as classics for the way they are written, but they will be classics for what they did to childrens literacy skills. There have been so many, many reports that children who would not ever read a book, started reading HP books and now love reading. She has reintroduced a whole generation to the written word and for that alone, the books will always be classic. Just like the Beatles, IMHO, they changed the way the world viewed popular music, and their music will always be regarded as classic. Their songs are great, not the best in the world, but great all the same, but it is their impact on our society that makes them greater. Further, in movies, somewhere recently I read that Jaws was voted the Classic Movie of all time - not the best movie ever, but rated for the impact it had on us at the time, and its still a great movie to watch. This is not a 'howler' just expressing my opinion. Sue (ducking the lengthy tomes being flung in her direction :) ) _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage comes with McAfee Virus Scanning - to keep your Hotmail account and PC safe. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From sues0101 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 01:06:33 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:06:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's attention to Harry an ammends for past mistakes? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77292 >From: "Kelly M." >Reply-To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com >> >My 2 cents: >Well, I think that Dumbledore kept a close eye on Riddle while he >was at school, but was he really to know exactly how he would >turn out and what he would become? He may feel guilty for not >watching Tom more carefully, but I don't think that's the reason >he watches over Harry now. > >He was taking care of Harry to begin with out of need - he didn't >think LV was really gone and felt obligated almost to take care of >Harry. But we learned in OotP that Dumbledore is watching over >Harry now because he cares about him so much....maybe too >much. > >Maybe Dumbledore didn't feel this sort of affection towards Tom >while he was at Hogwarts - he didn't have a need to. Plus dont forget Tom was a Slytherin and Dumbledore would not have had as much to do with him as his own Housemaster. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. 30MB of storage on ninemsn Groups - great for sharing photos and documents. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 07:20:22 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 07:20:22 -0000 Subject: What do Muggles Know? (Was: Re: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77293 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" > wrote: > > Maybe Hogwarts has a Post Office box somewhere in London, where > > Muggle mail can be sent and then picked up by a MoM employee and > > forwarded by owl. There have to be some contact points between the > > WW and Muggle world; remember in Gringott's in CoS, Arthur Weasley > > is so interested when he sees Hermione's parents exchanging money > > there. Someone through the bank has to be able to transfer that > > Muggle money back into the outside banking system, or it would just > > sit there uselessly. And I suspect the Goblins are intent upon > > getting whatever interest they can, even if they have to do > business with a Muggle bank. Ariadne: > I've been wondering about the Muggle/WW interaction since POA, when > we find out that Fudge has consulted with the Muggle Prime Minister > about Sirius (when he escapes from Azkaban). Yet in GOF, the WW takes > SO many precautions for the Quidditch WC, and places constant memory > charms on all the Muggles. Can we assume the Prime Minister has > extensive memory work done at some point as well? Of course, Sirius > was supposedly an escaped convict for approximately two years-- that's > a lot of "Obliviates!" It's also hard to imagine how a Goblin goes > about getting money changed without suspicion. Oh, well, I'll just > keep imagining that somehow wizards and witches are clever enough to > make it all work. Ariadne I always thought the Prime Minister was one of those muggles who *needed* to know about the WW for such instances as the one above. A dangerous murderer who kills both wizards and muggles on the loose is just as important to the muggle world as it is to the WW, the difference being that the muggles (even those in the know) don't truly know what, in this instance, Sirius Black is capable of. I don't think it's necessary to "Obliviate" the Prime Minister. Otherwise, every time something occurred in the WW that affects the muggle world, the Minister of Magic would have to once again convince the Prime Minister that there is a such thing as magic and a Wizarding World. Besides, it's not like the muggle government is going to spread around the existence of magic. People might think they're a bit insane, especially given there's probably no proof. And then I think, but what if the muggle government wants to take advantage of the WW? What's to stop them from exploiting the magic? I answer myself that the magical Ministry probably has precautions about that sort of thing and rules against what the muggle government can know. If they learn too much, perhaps a little "obliviate" once in a while goes a long way? Plus, the WW isn't completely unknown to muggles, anyway. I doubt very much that the Ministry erases the Grangers' memories every time Hermione heads off to school. Of course, I'm surprised they remember they even have a daughter, with the small amount of time she spends with them each year. The QWC was just an instance where an unmanageable number of wizards and witches were gathering, likely to be loud both in volume and in behavior. That could not go unnoticed by the muggles, hence the many memory charms there. There was a greater likelihood for exposure by a greater number of people. As far as money changing goes...hmm...well, yes, someone in the muggle banks has to know about the WW in order to exchange money in the first place. But the Goblins don't actually have to be the ones to do it. Remember that Bill Weasley works for Gringott's as a curse breaker. He's not a goblin. Perhaps Goblins employ other wizards to interact with the muggle banking institutions. KathyK (always eager to jump in when she can) From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 02:48:50 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 02:48:50 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Mandy said: > "No, no, no!!! Hermione is going to be Minister of > Magic one day and Ron will be left far behind her. Ron needs a nice > simple girl to love and support him just like Mr. & Mrs. > Weasley." > > AAm said: > I agree with you on that one. > > Rebecca Said: > Well, I find it highly offensive. No one thinks > anything of a man being great and significant and > having a wife who is either a helpmate or has a much > less glamorous job. But if it's the otherway around > there's a problem? > Mandy: > I don't think either of us is saying that a man supporting a womam > who is in power is a problem. I know I'm not at all, although I > can't honestly speak for AAm. I just don't believe it is something > Ron Weasley is capable of. But the are many more Wizards and Muggle > men in the sea and I trust Hermione to pick a good one who will > support her great ambitions. You're right Mandy and, again, I must say that I completely agree with you. Rebecca, neither me nor - as far as I can judge (but it's impossible for me to speak for her) Mandy - meant to be offensive. I don't believe that a man supporting a woman who is successful in whatever she does is or should be a problem for anyone. Unfortunately it is sometimes what happens for some men cannot stand such a situation, and I suspect Ron being one of them because, as we have seen in PS when he, following Harry, looks into the mirror, his dreams are those of a person who seeks personnal success (being prefect, a great Quidditch player, etc.), perhaps even to the detriment of other people (remember his attitude towards Harry in GoF ?) . We can understand that he somehow seeks revenge because he was living in the shadow of his brothers. But does that mean that he will be able to support his wife if HE is not as successful as she is ? A least this seems doubtful for me. This is all I meant. Fortunately I'm just talking about Ron, not men and women in general ;-) See You. AAm. From lilaforest03 at yahoo.fr Fri Aug 15 07:46:03 2003 From: lilaforest03 at yahoo.fr (forestlily) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:46:03 +0200 (Paris, Madrid (heure d'?t?)) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase with her interviews?? References: Message-ID: <3F3C8FBB.000001.61775@valley> No: HPFGUIDX 77295 "mom31" wrote: > > ---sebfish5 said: > Jk Rowling has REPEATEDLY SAID in interviews that Harry will NOT > end up with Hermione, however(I am a ardent R/H, by the way) why > would she say this so explicitly? I think (but deperately pray > against) that she may just be trying to lure everyone into think > this way before WHAM! massive H/H relationship. Then Ravenclaw Bookworm said: >I haven't been able to get the TV away from the kids long enough >(including my husband at times;) the check it, but I remember in >JKR's interview on the CoS DVD that there was a hint of a romantic >something put into that movie that didn't show up in the books until >GoF. The only thing I can think of that fits this is Hermione's >reaction to Harry and Ron when she enters the Great Hall at the >end. She is comfortable with Harry, but suddenly seems nervious >around Ron and shakes his hand instead of hugging him - a typical >teen crush reaction. This scene is not in the book, but does hint >at a Ron/Hermione SHIP. >When I have a chance to watch what *I* want to see I'll check it >out... Unless one of you gets to it first . Now me (LF): You're right and to support your theory here you can find an interresting sentence of Chris Columbus about the R/H relation : http://www.allstarz org/%7Eharrypotter/emma/main.htm go in the 'trivia' section. If you don't find read the quote below: 'Chris Columbus on Emma filming the hug scene in HP2 "I asked Emma to hug Dan, and she said, 'No way,' and that was the day she was the most nervous being on the set. She was like, 'I am not going to hug him, no I'm not.' And I said, 'You've been petrified, this is one of your best friends, if not your best friend, you have to hug him,' I said, 'but you won't hug Ron, because that's where the tension is' LF (who really want a R/H relationship because 'that's where the tension is !) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 03:53:43 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 03:53:43 -0000 Subject: Ron's consolations (was: Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" > > QoE wrote:> > I can't say that I agree that Harry and Hermione have become the > closest friends. Hermione is a very important person for Harry to > have on his side because her level-headedness is a good > balance to his quick-to-act nature, but that makes her a great ally > not a best friend. In the past (GoF) when Ron and Harry stopped > speaking to each other briefly, Harry spent more time with > Hermione but admitted that it just wasn't as enjoyable having > Hermione as his best friend. I didn't see any signs of that > changing in OotP. Harry was pretty awful to everyone, Hermione > included. He admitted that it wasn't enjoyable having Hermione as his best friend. That's perfectly true, but we are no longer talking about best friends here. But you're right, Harry was pretty awful with everyone (except Sirius perhaps - not even Hagrid escaped his wrath). That means that if anything is ever going to happen between him and a female character (whichever it is) he must first improve the way he behaves. I wrote: > > > Another example seems very intesting to me on the > symbolical point > > of > > > view. Remember with who Hermione was when Ron's > triumph as a goal- > > > keeper occurred ? A clue, first letter is H... > > > > QoE wrote: > That's a bit of a stretch. Remember they didn't want to leave the > quidditch match, and Ron was still doing horribly from what they > saw (a very painful thing to watch). It was an H than persuaded > them both to leave the match, but that H wasn't Harry. I'll give you > a clue, it still starts with an H... oh nevermind... It was a > bloody, black-eyed, > and insistent Hagrid. I'm sorry but I think that you actually miss the point I was (perhaps badly ;-) ) trying to stress. What I was talking about did not concern the succession of events and who's responsible for what, but I just tried to underline what appeared to me as an "artifice" - can't presently think of another word and, as you may have realized, english is not my mother-tongue - from the narrative point of view. We're no longer dealing with the characters' actions but with the writer's motivations (but you're absolutely right to say that the two of them were more than reluctant - especially Hermione - to follow Hagrid. Perhaps, if I dare say - but you'll tell me that once again I do stretch things, and more than a little bit this time... - that in the future H and H (not H) might get closer driven by forces that, at first, they don't fully explain and understand, just as they did not understand why Hagrid was taking them to the FF. Just another thought.). I wrote : > > > Talking about that makes me think of something that > concerns the > > > whole scheme of OoP. In this book we see Ron achieving > ALL his > > goals, > > > all his dreams, just as expressed in PS when he was > looking in the > > > mirror. He becomes a prefect AND plays Quidditch (actually, > he is > > the > > > new star of the G team). Maybe that's the compensation he > gets > > > throughout OoP, for his dreams become true but at the same > time > > this > > > is made possible at a great cost as Hermione seems to > withdraw. > > > > QoE wrote: > Well, when it comes down to Ron as a prefect, isn't it Ron who > spends more time with Hermione - and Harry who is left out. > As a Quidditch player, Ron spends a lot of time in practice, just > as Harry did in the previous books. The three-amigos still spend > roughly the same amount of time together - we just get to see > what Harry > and Hermione are up to and it's been nothing romantic IMHO. Well, I'd say that even though Ron and Hermione are spending more and more time together (as prefects, when they were spending their holidays in the Black's mansion, etc.) at the meantime they don't seem to get any closer. That's not a good point for Ron (and remember that Hermione barely has any esteem for Ron as a prefect ; it even took her some time to understand that it was Ron and not Harry that was being chosen for the task - and don't forget that she was really happy at first to share that distinction with Harry...) I wrote : > > > One last thing, it has also been said that Harry and > Hermione > > would > > > have nothing to say if they had a love-affair. This leads me to > > add > > > two comments : > > > a) Same problem (perhaps even worse) with Ron. > > > b) Hermione isn't just interested in someone because he or > she has > > > problems. Even if this was true, she would then find Ron > REALLY > > > uninteresting and boring. > > > > > > Quite long, isn't it. Well, see ya ;-) > > > > > > AAm. QoE wrote : > If either Harry or Ron were to date Hermione they would of > course have loads to talk about. Isn't that a large part of their > friendship bond? They can discuss with each other things that > they would never discuss with anyone else. I agree with you (I was implicitly responding to someone else's post). Seb wrote : Good post AAm [Thanks!!!] > > I have to admit, even as a ardent R/H shipper(i.e, it's what I > > want [I have to say that it's the same thing with me, I'd really like to see Harry with Hermione (^_^) ], the evidence is piling up for a H/H ship, <(snip)> > > Ron's feelings are clear and the fog around Hermione's is lifting > > ever so slighty. Harry is the wild card. Absolutely. QoE wrote : > Harry is still the wild card though - but I think If he really liked > someone, we would definitely know. Only if JKR wants us to know it. She will let us kow a) when there is really something to aknowledge b) when she judges that it is the right moment for us to know that (a and b may occur at very different moments !). Bye everyone. AAm. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 04:11:01 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 04:11:01 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77297 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunachapter10" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" > wrote:> > > > > > > > I do know that she has in a couple of interviews stated that the > > deaths will continue, and that one in particular will make her cry > > when she writes it. > > Are you sure she wasn't just referring so writing about Sirius's > death? His death seems to me to be the only time she has talked about > crying over in any interview. I just think that if she said that a > Weasley would die it would have been publicized a lot by now! I > respectfully suggest that maybe you mistaken about this. As I recall (and please forgive imperfect memory) she said that she cried while "killing" Sirius, but that she expects to cry far more when she writes a later death ... in fact, she rather dreads writing it. From kodiak6of9 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 04:18:26 2003 From: kodiak6of9 at yahoo.com (Michaela Ross) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2003 21:18:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] is there a reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030815041826.19628.qmail@web42002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77298 Casey kfc4588 wrote: Sorry if this has been posted before but while I was rereading book 3 for about the 200th time (i had lots of time because of the huge blackout here.. i havent had lights for about 4 hours) I started thinking, is there a reason besides how they make you feel that dumbledore hates dementors? i mean does he have bad things in his past or does he just not like them? i think there has to be something deeper to this... or maybe im just reading too deeply into this, i dont know those four hours without electricty might have made me go insane! I think it is because he knows that they will turn on the M.O.M at the drop of a hat, "they suck the happiness out of a person". Voldemort could give them more. You don't have to have had a run in with someone or thing to know if they are good or evil and Albus is very intune to good and evil. Just my opion. Michaela Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. RESPECT AND BELIVE IN YOURSELF EVEN IF NO ONE ELSE DOES!!!!! M --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From veritabatim at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 07:58:42 2003 From: veritabatim at yahoo.com (Valli Porter) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 00:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: <1060904062.7798.32566.m2@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030815075842.43228.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77299 An interesting proposition, which I reply to with an anecdote: I am planning on going back to school to get my MFA in creative writing, and in the past week I spent some time in the library, reading graduates' dissertations. Can I even begin to express my disappointment with the works produced at my next alma mater? I expected to find stories filled with rich, poetic, or even experimental language; I expected word play and wit, rhythm and cadence. Instead I discovered stories that were well-told and even, I suppose, reflective of our time. But none of them exhibited the mastery of language that I am interested in. Often I think there are two factions among people who author books: the storytellers and the writers. I want to be a writer because I'm attracted to expression through language and "saying something," which isn't always conducive to story form. But often storytellers are the authors that capture the public. Who cares about the writers? Let them retreat to their little coves in academia and produce their literary journals. Of course, our greatest books are written by authors who have both the knack for weaving a worthwhile tale in such mesmerizing words that we can't help but read. That is the highest definition of "literature" I can conjure. Toni Morrison's work is, for me, the ultimate example of the marriage of lyricism and storyline in the last twenty years. I have no doubt the world will be reading her works in one hundred years, even after Oprah's stupid, stupid book club is dead and stamped out of our cultral memory. For me, J.K. Rowling's work is great because she is plainly a wonderful storyteller. And she doesn't drag us through the tale with the same sordid approach all of those MFA graduates did. She incorporates word play and a certain colloquial rhythm. She isn't constructing sentences that are impossible to diagram, and she is of course limited by the form she chose in writing the series (how many times do we have to joke that the most shattering events in Harry's life always happen in the first three weeks of June?). But I know that I love to lose myself in Jo's imagination. Sometimes I wish I could live in it instead of my own -- the Wizarding World seems to hold so many possibilities. If people in fifty or a hundred years want to lose themselves in the same way we all have been, then I don't doubt Harry will survive the harsh critic of time, even if our best simile for how his story is written is warm beer. (And this from the chick who has had absolutely no use for fantasy novels of any sort -- give me nineteenth century British literature over Tolkien any day.) I just recently became and will remain, Veritabatim, who thinks Dumbledore and Lupin are the two characters off-limits to be ESE!, but she'll save it for a more sane hour of the day --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 08:15:52 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:15:52 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: <20030814203014.79737.qmail@web21007.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77300 Buttercup: I'm wondering if Snape really likes Draco or is it a > masquerade to conceal his loyalty to Dumbledore. He > calls Draco by his first name instead of "Malfoy," as > he does the other students he's not crazy about like > Potter, Longbottom, Weasley, etc. I can't see Snape as > a flawless liar 24/7, year after year. Sooner or > later even the best fibbers fumble and let's their > true feelings slip. I think he genuinely has feelings > for Draco. How about you? > Margaret (me): You may be on to something with this. It's quite possible that Snape sees Malfoy as what he wanted to be in school, but wasn't. Draco has money, parents with influence, he's popular, he doesn't seem to get picked on much (in fact he's usually doing the bullying), he's (presumably, I know there's still House debate) in the same house Snape was in as a student. He could be living vicariously through Draco as much as Sirius was through Harry. I hope he realizes at some point that Draco Malfoy's a hudred times worse than James Potter ever was. ~Margaret Who fears her newfound fondness of Snape after OoP may be drawing her back towards the unfortunate tendency she used to have of sympathizing with the dark mysterious type and defending him to the bitter death. From acpurplekitty at juno.com Fri Aug 15 07:52:02 2003 From: acpurplekitty at juno.com (jedi_hermione) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 07:52:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: <002101c36292$13eb4980$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77301 > JKR said this at Quickquotes http://www.the-leaky- cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1200-readersdigest-boquet.htm > > " But when Rowling saw young British actor Daniel Radcliffe's screen test, she knew the 11-year-old was perfect for the part. Rowling's quality control is legendary, as is her obsession with accuracy. She's thrilled with Stephen Fry's taped version of the books, outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his vulnerability?" " > > Hmm. I'll have to think about what that could mean. > > Joj This comes from the thread "Harry's Eyes", but I think it's too disconnected a tangent to be posted under that heading. What thoughts have you on what this could mean? My personal inclination is that they're metaphorical. Perhaps Harry is blind to something or somethings going on around him, and this will be his undoing? Or perhaps he will be too trusting of his friends and blind to their faults until it's too late and one of them has turned on him? The other end of the spectrum is the possibility that the meaning is 100% literal. Maybe all LV has to do is take off his glasses so he can't see where to aim his wand? Or perhaps the lenses can be used to channel a spell directly into his eyes. Since there is so much emphasis on Harry's eyes being inherited from his mother, from whom he received his protection from LV, perhaps channeling an AK to enter his body through them is what is necessary to kill him? *~Aeryn~* From acpurplekitty at juno.com Fri Aug 15 06:57:39 2003 From: acpurplekitty at juno.com (jedi_hermione) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:57:39 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" wrote: > "Richard" wrote: > > JKR has said that a Weasley will die. A brief introduction before I launch into my own theory- I'm Aeryn, from the U.S., and one of those "mature teenagers who may benefit from the group". I also doubt the validity of this claim, since no one has yet produced a source. Even if Rowling has not stated it herself, however, it's likely that a Weasley will die because of her attention to nomenclature. In one of the ancient mythologies (I can't recall which one; they all tend to run together in my mind), a man named Weasley (Weasly in some variants) was killed by a rat. I've always assumed this was one of Rowling's cruel namings and indicated that a Weasley would be murdered by Peter Pettigrew. If no one can find a direct Rowling quote contributing to this theory, it could have originated from mythology instead, and, given Rowling's record with the matter, is likely accurate. From sylviablundell at aol.com Fri Aug 15 08:41:35 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:41:35 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian names Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77303 Can't find a meaning for Bilius. A bit off the point, but in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather, Bilious is the OhGod of Hangovers.Cheers From qmasters at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 09:33:22 2003 From: qmasters at yahoo.com (quimbyquidditch) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:33:22 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77304 According to (I believe) the Harry Potter Lexicon website, the myth of Running Weasel is a complete and total fabrication. No such legend exists. quimbyquidditch, who will go into a deep mourning if anything happens to any of the Weasleys --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jedi_hermione" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" > wrote: > > "Richard" wrote: > > > > JKR has said that a Weasley will die. > > A brief introduction before I launch into my own theory- I'm Aeryn, > from the U.S., and one of those "mature teenagers who may benefit > from the group". > > I also doubt the validity of this claim, since no one has yet > produced a source. Even if Rowling has not stated it herself, > however, it's likely that a Weasley will die because of her attention > to nomenclature. > > In one of the ancient mythologies (I can't recall which one; they all > tend to run together in my mind), a man named Weasley (Weasly in some > variants) was killed by a rat. I've always assumed this was one of > Rowling's cruel namings and indicated that a Weasley would be > murdered by Peter Pettigrew. > > If no one can find a direct Rowling quote contributing to this > theory, it could have originated from mythology instead, and, given > Rowling's record with the matter, is likely accurate. From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 15 10:15:40 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:15:40 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77305 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: Margaret wrote: > > I hope he (Snape)realizes at > some point that Draco Malfoy's a hudred times worse than James Potter > ever was. Me: I'm not sure I agree that Draco is that much worse than James Potter. Draco makes rude comments, he is spiteful towards Harry and his friends and he sniggers a lot. A few times he has done some really bad things, but it's not like his favourite sport is to attack an unprepared and lonely student and humiliate this person in front of all his class mates. We did see him go overboard under the influence of Umbridge, which makes me believe this is a good reason for Snape to treat Draco the way he does. If Snape can make Draco trust and respect him, he might be able to use this in the future to prevent Draco from doing something really horrible. Snape might not be the best role model for most kids, but probably a perfect one for the Slytherins. Marika From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 10:17:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:17:23 -0000 Subject: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77306 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" > wrote: > > Maybe Hogwarts has a Post Office box somewhere in London, where > > Muggle mail can be sent and then picked up by a MoM employee and > > forwarded by owl. There have to be some contact points between > > the WW and Muggle world; ...edited... > > > I've been wondering about the Muggle/WW interaction since POA, when > we find out that Fudge has consulted with the Muggle Prime Minister > about Sirius (when he escapes from Azkaban). Yet in GOF, the WW takes > SO many precautions for the Quidditch WC, and places constant memory > charms on all the Muggles. Can we assume the Prime Minister has > extensive memory work done at some point as well? ...edited... > Ariadne bboy_mn: Regarding the Prime Minister, I think the situation is explained to him when he/she first takes office much like the existance of outer space aliens is explained to each new incoming president (or so some people claim). It is impressed upton this new person the revealing this information to anyone could have very grave socical, political, religious, and very very personal consequences. Then once that persons term has ended, those minor inconvinient aspects of their memory are erased, thus securing the secrecy of the wizard world. If any particular Prime Minister violates this trust, it become a matter for the Obilivator Squard to manage any damage control. Now, as to the more routine interaction between the wizard world and the muggle world, I believe there are many people who act as gateways between the two worlds. Example; Seamus Finnigan's father is pure muggle and his mother is a witch. It's conceivable that Mr. Finnigan prefers to live and do business in the muggle world where he is more comfortable, although, that by no means implies that he avoids or shuns the magic world, he is simply more comfortably living in the muggle world in his daily life. But being a good business man, and knowing a good opportunity when he sees one, he finds himself in the perfect position to use his muggle business as a go-between point for trading goods and services between the two worlds. In a sense, his businesses acts as import/export businesses; importing and exporting for the wizard world. I also believe that Gringotts bank has several muggle 'front' organizations that act as go-between points for the exchange of money and business investments between the two worlds. There are many older posts and threads in this group where we discuss the nature and extent of business operations in the wizard world. I was going to post some links but Yahoo's search feature is being very uncooperative at the moment. just a thought. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 15 10:51:47 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:51:47 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > I wrote:- > I am intrigued by the idea of what makes good literature, indeed, > what makes anything great. > > Golly replied:- > > Quality - pure and simple. I can't think of any classic novel I > have ever read that wasn't well written. The only exception was my > great annoyance at the Iilad for repeating itself so often and even > given that stylistic idiosyncracy, it had compensations. Even the > bible is well written at most points. Job is powerful stuff. > > > > > You've rather made my point here though. Who defines quality? > Quality is not objective, it's subjective. > > I do think that Jane Austen's books are classics and are "great". > LOTR is different again. I find the story itself and creation of > Middle Earth amazing, and yet, the first time I tried to read the > books, I only got half way before I gave up in boredom. IMO Tolkein > made brilliant stories, but was not always brilliant at telling them. > > > So you mean that the general populace shouldn't have the right to > decide whether something is great or not? What is the alternative a > body of say English Literature Professors dictating to us what is > quality or what is great? > > Ali What fun! I wholeheartedly agree that the quality or otherwise of written works is subjective. It has to be. Start imposing objective criteria and you'll get some silly results. The Canterbury Tales become a collection of bawdy anecdotes characterised by poor spelling, Joyce lacks the ability to construct a decent plot line, is careless with punctuation, and so on. I think 'Literature' is a very slippery concept. The OED gives the following definitions:- 1. Acquaintance with books, polite or humane learning... 2. Literary work or production, the realm of letters. 3. Literary productions as a whole, the body of writings produced in a particular country or period. Now also spec., that kind of written composition valued on account of its qualities of form or emotional effect. It's this last one that is the cause of contention. Particularly the last six words. HP does have an emotional effect on many of the posters to the site, it's form is better than most of the stuff produced these days, but *technical* analysis of the text shows it leaves something to be desired by some. If we are arround in fifty years time we might be able to make better judgements as to its values. Whether or not the later books in the series match up to the earlier ones does not diminish their quality. Many claim acquaintance with Dantes 'Inferno'. How many read his 'Heaven'? Damn few. It's boring. We also tend to forget that this series has been the work of a neophyte; seven books plotted out by a beginner, planned as an entertainment, a tale to get lost in. Looked at from that angle it is a literary wonder. It may be a rough diamond, but still a gem. Thank you JKR. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 10:55:28 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:55:28 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? In-Reply-To: <11.172854d9.2c6d81ab@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77308 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > Casey writes: > > > > > > Sorry if this has been posted before but while I was rereading book 3 > > for about the 200th time (i had lots of time because of the huge > > blackout here.. i havent had lights for about 4 hours) I started > > thinking, is there a reason besides how they make you feel that > > dumbledore hates dementors? i mean does he have bad things in his > > past or does he just not like them? i think there has to be something > > deeper to this... or maybe im just reading too deeply into this, i > > dont know those four hours without electricty might have made me go > > insane! > > Cassie: I've always felt it was because of people's (mainly Fudge's) naive > trust in them. I'm not sure where (I'm pretty sure it was GoF), but somewhere > Dumbledore tells Fudge something along the lines of "They (the Dementors) will > not remain loyal to you. Voldemort can give them more, etc...etc.." > > Whatever the reasons...they must be very foul for kind, trusting Dumbledore > to not like them. Geoff: "Preposterous!" shouted Fudge again. "Remove the Dementors! I'd be kicked out of office for suggesting it! Half of us only feel safe in our beds at night because we know the Dementors are standing guard at Azkaban" "The rest of us sleep less soundly in our beds, Cornelius, knowing that you have put Lord Voldemort's most dangerous supporters in the care of creatures who will join him the instant he asks them!" said Dumbledore. "They will not remain loyal to you, Fudge! Voldemort can offer them much more scope for their powers and their pleasures than you can!...." GOF "The Parting of the ways" p.614 From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 11:02:33 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:02:33 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and thestrals In-Reply-To: <3ECE4042.722C1204.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/14/2003 2:42:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 writes: > > > Geoff: > > > > Two possibilities. In GOF, Hagrid tells Harry that his father died > > during Hagrid's second year at Hogwarts. Did he see his father after > > his death? > > > > Additionally, in POA when Harry overheards the conversation between > > McGonagall/Fudge/Flitwick/Hagrid in the Thre Broomsticks ("The > > MArauder's Map" p.153), Hagrid says that he pulled Harry from the > > ruins of the Potter house after Voldemort's attack just after Lily > > and James were killed. Does this imply that he must have > > seen their > > bodies? > Brief Chronicles: > I thought the person had to *watch* someone die in order to see the Thestrals, not see a dead body after the fact. That's why, I think, it was so eerie to notice that a few of the students could see the beasts in their teenage years. Many adults haven't seen a person die in front of their eyes; it made us all wonder who Neville, etc., had already watched snuff it. > Geoff: "The only people who can see Threstals" she said, "are people who have seen death." Depends how you interpret this. It is not everybody who has seen folk after death and possibly even fewer who have seen folk actually pass away. I saw both my parents just after they died but was prevented being there when my mother passed on because of traffic (of all things!). I believe that HP, LL and NL can see them for the former reason. Just my view..... From tallulah_sam at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 10:35:24 2003 From: tallulah_sam at hotmail.com (tallulah_sam) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:35:24 -0000 Subject: Harry Quidditch Champ! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77310 Has anybody considered that apart from Harry becoming an auror or DADA teacher he could play Quidditch proffessionally? In PS when Harry gets picked as seeker Wood tells him (sorry i dont have the book so the quote isnt perfect) that Charlie Weasley could have played for England if he hadnt run off to look after dragons. Since then we have been told on numerous occassions that the Griffindor team is the best ever and harry is better than Charlie ever was. So.... do we have the new Krum/Bagman on our hands? Just a thought! Tallulah From catherinemck at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 11:31:10 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:31:10 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "acoteucla" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" > > wrote: > > > I just did a quick re-read of GoF, and something caught my eye > that > > I > > > missed the first time. At Karkaroff's hearing (or whatever that > > was), > > > Karkaroff gives out the names of several people that he knows to > be > > > DE's. One of the names was, of course, Snape. Then Dumbledore > says > > > something to the effect of "Snape is no longer a DE, he turned > spy > > > for us at great personal risk." Obviously Karkaroff heard this. > > > Wouldn't he have turned around and shared that information with > his > > > fellow DE's in Azkaban? > > > Though I don't recall Karkaroff being mentioned in OoP, it's safe > > to > > > assume he's still on the loose. What if he uses his information > > about > > > Snape to save himself from LV? > > > On top of this, wasn't it kind of stupid for Dumbledore to > mention > > > the fact that Snape was a spy in front of Karkaroff? > > > Sorry if this has all been mentioned before. (And I'm sure it > must > > > have been.) > > > > There is WAY too much evidence laying around that Snape is a double > > agent for Dumbledore. There are his actions against Quirrell (whom > > LV was possessing), there's the umpteen million people who have > heard > > Dumbledore say Snape is trustworthy, there's the fact that he's a > > member of the Order of the Phoenix and there's probably a spy > within > > the order.... LV HAS to know that Snape is a double agent. That > > leaves the following possibilities: > > > > 1. Snape isn't really spying against LV. JKR has just written it > in > > such a way that it SEEMS like that's his job in the Order. But she > > hasn't come right out and said it. > > > > 2. Snape is pretending to be a double-double agent. He returns to > LV > > with the wonderful news that he is within Dumbledore's inner > circle, > > but LV is his true master. All the "spy-work" he did for > Dumbledore > > a long time back was about unimportant stuff, so as to gain DD's > > trust. > > > > 3. Snape really IS a double-double agent. > > I'm starting to think Snape isn't really spying on VD. As you rightly > point out, there is too much evidence out there that Snape is with > Dumbledore. I can't imagine what he would be doing, but the prospect > of him spying directly on VD is starting to seem much more unlikely. > To tell you the truth, I don't know what the hell is going on anymore. > > Allyson I thought that Snape's activities in OotP were something to do with Lucius Malfoy rather than direct contant with Voldemort, which would surely be too risky. Snape is clearly in contact with Lucius (hence his remark to Sirius about L recognising S). However whether he is in touch with Lord V. through Lucius or doing something else entirely is up in the air (until someone finds a really good clue). Of course, if Voldemort can read Malfoy's mind ("The Dark Lord knows," "He always knows") then he?ll know about Snape's activities. Catherine McK From catherinemck at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 11:42:56 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:42:56 -0000 Subject: FILK: Statues in the Fountain Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77312 A filk to the tune of Three Coins in the Fountain The foyer of the Ministry of Magic. Cornelius Fudge has swopped his green bowler for a lilac trilby and stands holding a microphone trying to look debonair and cool. Suddenly the lights dim, all save a single spotlight on Fudge and the pink glow that leaps up around the fountain itself, so that it seems to be flowing with fizzy ros? wine. Fudge taps the microphone, the violins ripple and he begins to croon... FUDGE Statues in the fountain Demonstrate our wizard pride. House-elf, centaur and sexpot (coughs) witch, Standing by her wizard's side. Statues in the fountain, Show us all how things should be. Symbolised in the fountain; The order of our Ministry. The scene is interrupted as Bellatrix Lestrange dashes into the foyer, hotly pursued by Harry Potter. Fudge watches aghast was they are joined first by Lord Voldemort and then by Dumbledore and proceed to blast the fountain into smithereens. Closer observers will notice that his horror does not prevent him loosening his tie a bit as he watches the witch pin down the writhing Mrs Lestrange. Bugger! Where's the fountain gone? Bugger! Where's the fountain gone? DUMBLEDORE Statues in the fountain, Show a world built on a lie. We must recognise each other talents Or surely we're all gonna die. VOLDEMORT (with DEATH EATER CHORUS) That's bad, why? That's bad, why? That's bad, whhhyyy? Catherine McK From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 11:46:53 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:46:53 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > > Casey writes: > > > > > > > > > > Sorry if this has been posted before but while I was rereading > book 3 > > > for about the 200th time (i had lots of time because of the huge > > > blackout here.. i havent had lights for about 4 hours) I started > > > thinking, is there a reason besides how they make you feel that > > > dumbledore hates dementors? i mean does he have bad things in his > > > past or does he just not like them? i think there has to be > something > > > deeper to this... or maybe im just reading too deeply into this, > i > > > dont know those four hours without electricty might have made me > go > > > insane! > > > > Cassie: I've always felt it was because of people's (mainly > Fudge's) naive > > trust in them. I'm not sure where (I'm pretty sure it was GoF), > but somewhere > > Dumbledore tells Fudge something along the lines of "They (the > Dementors) will > > not remain loyal to you. Voldemort can give them more, > etc...etc.." > > > > Whatever the reasons...they must be very foul for kind, trusting > Dumbledore > > to not like them. > > > Geoff: > > "Preposterous!" shouted Fudge again. "Remove the Dementors! I'd be > kicked out of office for suggesting it! Half of us only feel safe in > our beds at night because we know the Dementors are standing guard at > Azkaban" > > "The rest of us sleep less soundly in our beds, Cornelius, knowing > that you have put Lord Voldemort's most dangerous supporters in the > care of creatures who will join him the instant he asks them!" said > Dumbledore. "They will not remain loyal to you, Fudge! Voldemort can > offer them much more scope for their powers and their pleasures than > you can!...." > > GOF "The Parting of the ways" p.614 Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he is a LV supporter if not a DE. Around the same passage quoted above, DD accuses Fudge of "putting too much importance on purity of blood". Things that bother me about Fudge: 1) Puts the blame on Sirius for the Potter's, and Wormtails supposed death without a trial or asking for an explanation. 2)The deatheaters in POA 3)The dementors kiss on Barty jr without taking the opportunity to question him. 4)The whole parting of the ways. 5)His continuing reluctance to believe LV is back at the end of OOP. He didn't exactly go Oh MY God you were right all along DD, he reacted begrudgingly to it. 6)He thinks so highly of Lucious Malfoy. Yes I know Lucious gives money but giving money isnt that big a deal for someone who has alot. I realize that this is out there but I just dont believe he is that naive. I also believe Ludo Bagman is a DE.....Wimbourn Wasp...Wasp buzzing around in GOF and OOP..... Fran From alison.williams at virgin.net Fri Aug 15 11:47:26 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (bluetad2001) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:47:26 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Ali" wrote: > > I wrote:- > > I am intrigued by the idea of what makes good literature, indeed, > > what makes anything great. > > > > Golly replied:- > > > > Quality - pure and simple. I can't think of any classic novel I > > have ever read that wasn't well written. The only exception was my > > great annoyance at the Iilad for repeating itself so often and even > > given that stylistic idiosyncracy, it had compensations. Even the > > bible is well written at most points. Job is powerful stuff. > > > > > > > > > > You've rather made my point here though. Who defines quality? > > Quality is not objective, it's subjective. > > > > I do think that Jane Austen's books are classics and are "great". > > LOTR is different again. I find the story itself and creation of > > Middle Earth amazing, and yet, the first time I tried to read the > > books, I only got half way before I gave up in boredom. IMO Tolkein > > made brilliant stories, but was not always brilliant at telling them. > > > > > > > So you mean that the general populace shouldn't have the right to > > decide whether something is great or not? What is the alternative a > > body of say English Literature Professors dictating to us what is > > quality or what is great? > > > > Ali > > > What fun! > I wholeheartedly agree that the quality or otherwise of written works > is subjective. It has to be. Start imposing objective criteria and you'll > get some silly results. The Canterbury Tales become a collection of > bawdy anecdotes characterised by poor spelling, Joyce lacks the > ability to construct a decent plot line, is careless with punctuation, > and so on. > I think 'Literature' is a very slippery concept. > The OED gives the following definitions:- > 1. Acquaintance with books, polite or humane learning... > 2. Literary work or production, the realm of letters. > 3. Literary productions as a whole, the body of writings produced > in a particular country or period. > Now also spec., that kind of written composition valued on > account of its qualities of form or emotional effect. > > It's this last one that is the cause of contention. Particularly the last > six words. HP does have an emotional effect on many of the posters > to the site, it's form is better than most of the stuff produced these > days, but *technical* analysis of the text shows it leaves something > to be desired by some. > > If we are arround in fifty years time we might be able to make better > judgements as to its values. Whether or not the later books in the > series match up to the earlier ones does not diminish their quality. > Many claim acquaintance with Dantes 'Inferno'. How many read > his 'Heaven'? Damn few. It's boring. > > We also tend to forget that this series has been the work of a > neophyte; seven books plotted out by a beginner, planned as an > entertainment, a tale to get lost in. Looked at from that angle it > is a literary wonder. It may be a rough diamond, but still a gem. > Thank you JKR. > > Kneasy Is there not also a case to be made for a prose style that is *appropriate* to the tale being told? Would we enjoy Pride and Prejudice written in the style of James Joyce? Or, in another field, Debussy played in the style of Beethoven? The HP series is, above all, the work of a storyteller and is written in that style. If it was written in a prose style that was deeply and beautifully poetic it would hardly be appropriate to the content which is, apart from the superficial level of fantasy, very much about everyday life, ordinary people and real feelings. The fact is that it is written in a vernacular style, everyday language, the way people speak, (run on sentences and all) and with some very down to earth humour. Some people seem to think this puts it beyond the pale in terms of literature - great or otherwise. I don't see why it should. Did someone earlier mention Chaucer? I would be surprised if it becomes a classic, but the term 'classic' is only earned in time, and even then, is open to dispute. Alison From qmasters at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 11:48:42 2003 From: qmasters at yahoo.com (quimbyquidditch) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:48:42 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77315 Catherine wrote: > I thought that Snape's activities in OotP were something to do with > Lucius Malfoy rather than direct contant with Voldemort, which would > surely be too risky. Snape is > clearly in contact with Lucius (hence his remark to Sirius about L > recognising S). However whether he is in touch with Lord V. through > Lucius or doing something else entirely is up in the air (until > someone finds a really good clue). Of course, if Voldemort can read > Malfoy's mind ("The Dark Lord knows," "He always knows") then he?ll > know about Snape's activities. > > Catherine McK This is just a wilde theory. I am entirely unable to back it up with canon and it's only half-developed. We know that talented leglimancists can plant thoughts (as Voldemort did with Harry when Harry thought Sirius was in the Ministry of Magic). To what extent can they plant thoughts? Do you think Snape could plant a thought in Malfoy's mind, without Malfoy knowing the thought had been planted, and then Malfoy could pass that thought on to Voldemort? Could Snape be passing misinformation on to Voldemort using Malfoy as the vessel, or is that just too far out of the bounds of leglimancy? quimbyquidditch, who admits it's a very weak theory . . . From alison.williams at virgin.net Fri Aug 15 11:51:19 2003 From: alison.williams at virgin.net (bluetad2001) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:51:19 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77316 I wrote - >...I would be surprised if it becomes a classic, but the term 'classic' is only earned in time, and even then, is open to dispute. Ooops! I meant, of course, to say I would be surprised if it DOESN'T become a classic! Alison From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Fri Aug 15 11:53:57 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:53:57 +0100 Subject: My Order of the Phoenix Review. Message-ID: <3F3CC9D5.6000904@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77317 Hello everyone, I finally got around to writing up a review of Harry Potter. I threw it up on my web page ( http://www.colingregorypalmer.net ) and I thought I would share it here. Feedback welcome. June 25th was a happy day. I, like uncounted others ran to the post office to pick up a copy of a book I had ordered months ago. Before I even handed the postwoman my package slip, she gave me the custom amazon.com box. ``I got mine first thing in the morning.'' She said. ``I'm here to pick up my copy too.'' Said the man behind me. Everyone was friends that day. I got in my car and literally yelled with unbridled joy. After seemingly endless waiting and repeated delays, \emph{The Order of the Phoenix} was finally in my hands. I tried to spread out the reading, but three days was the best I could do. I'm sad to report that I was disappointed. It something was wrong, something was different. I waited until I reread the book at a much slower pace before I wrote this review. I hoped that the speed at which I first tore through the book had tainted my opinion. While it was better the second time, I still felt let down. I am criticizing J. K. Rowling because I love her work so deeply. I spend time thinking about her world; it is precious to me. I began reading the series when I was a freshman in college and thus had empathy with Harry. He was in a new world and so was I. He was taking magic classes, and I was taking the closest muggle equivalent: science. Quantum mechanics is the closest I will ever get to apparating, and Nuclear physics the closest to transfiguration. Please keep in mind, when I criticize, it is not because I dislike, but because I like the potterverse so much that I have placed expectations beyond what anyone could achieve. Before continuing, I warn you. This is not so much a review as it is my thoughts on the book. If you have not yet read \emph{The Order}, please do not read any farther. Obligatory spoiler space follows. H e r e b e d r a g o n s My disappointment began with chapter thirty seven: \emph{The Lost Prophesy}. Within a few moments, we go from believing that an invaluable piece of information has been lost forever, to discovering that Dumbledore had it the whole time. He uses the Pensieve to recall the words Sibyll Trelawney spoke to him sixteen years ago. So what was the point? Why bother guarding the prophecy at all? Try as I might, I could find no reason given in the text to guard the prophecy other than to keep it from Voldemort. If keeping this information from You-Know-Who was so important, why not have Harry retrieve it. Or, if Dumbledore does not yet want Harry to know about his future, why not destroy the prophecy? Harry destroyed hundreds during his battle with the death eaters. I have seen a few good theories proposed by fans as to why the prophecy remained in the Ministry of Magic, but they do not satisfy me. The world itself should make sense, and not need outside explanation to keep it rational and consistent. Star Trek fans do their best to concoct theories to keep their universe internally logical, but it does not change that the world is a mess. I do not wish to see the potterverse take this same direction. I worry about the size of Rowling's world. I fear it has gotten larger that she can manage. There are too many spells and magical items interacting with one another. There are many times when magic would solve a problem that seems to exist only to advance the plot. For example, Sirius's confinement to 12 Grimuald Place. Rowling has already shown us a number of ways Sirius could get a breath of fresh air or see Harry. We have invisibility cloaks, polyjuice potions, and apparational transport. Surely a man who had the ability to became an animajous at 15, could as an adult, discern a way to move unseen. Especially considering he has nothing else to do with his time. But alas, the plot requires he remain indoors, so indoors he stays. Very little happens in this book. Sure, Dolourus Umbridge is an masochistic, worthless bureaucrat who does her best to bring Hogwarts under the control of the ministry. But does it matter? No. She has no lasting effect on Hogwarts. Fudge and the Ministry deny the existence of Voldemort, but once again, this is irrelevant. Voldmort does nothing with the time. I am reminded of the movie version of \emph{The Two Towers}. Peter Jackson added a scene where Aragon is thrown off a cliff edge and the audience is lead to believe he has died. But, sure enough, he show up in time for the storming of Helm's Deep. So why bother with this fake death? It didn't matter. If he was late for Helm's Deep, then it would have made a difference. The Potter universe is no different at the end of book 5 than it was at the end of book 4. Finally, the big issue: the death of Sirius Black. Sirius was my favorite character in the book. The series will me much less interesting for me to read knowing he is no longer lurking in the background as Harry's shadowy protector. I will miss him. His death was abrupt and pointless. That, in itself is not a bad thing. Most death in the world in abrupt and pointless. We do not all get to die heroically and deliver a last speech to our loved ones. However, I do not think his death was handled well. To kill him by means of a device we have only just learned about 10 pages previously leaves a bad taste in my mouth. JKR has repeatedly stated in interviews that his death is permanent. He is not coming back. If this is the case, why not kill him in a more 'clearly dead' manner? Hit him with Avanda Kadarvra. Have him poisoned. Perhaps a wild hippogryph could kill him. But no. Poof. He's dead. There is no body. Very unsatisfying. I did like that his death was a complicated matter. Harry Potter and Dumbledore are the reasons for Sirius's death. Dumbledore badly misjudges other people. He ignores Harry and thinks this will have no ill effect. Dumbledore believes Snape, a man who's whole life is driven by bitterness, can overlook old grudges. He also feels thatSnape's taunting of Sirius inablitly to help is meaningless to a manconfined to his mother's house. Dumbledore judges people so badly that I can't help wonder how well he really understands Tom Riddle. Harry did not take occlumency lessons seriously even when Black insisted that he learn. Harry's foolishness with Snapes's (sorry \emph{professor} Snapes's) pensive, and his refusal to even see what Sirius's present was sealed his Godfather's fate. The most emotional moment in the book is when Harry finds the mirror. He could have prevented it all. While I did love this book for bringing me back into the Widzarding World, it has displaced \emph{Chamber of Secrets} as my least favorite in the series. I hope no future book displace this one. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Aug 15 12:13:11 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:13:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] St Mungo's Secret messages? Message-ID: <44.342ece19.2c6e2857@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77318 In a message dated 8/13/2003 9:02:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com writes: > Taking a look back at the St. Mungo's visit there are some hidden > messages there. Warnings of events to come. > > I found this one... but havn't been able to make sense of any others. > > The one I found is as follows: > > "They climbed a flight of stairs and entered the "Creature-Induced > Injuries" corridor, where the second door on the right bore the > words 'DANGEROUS' DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES. " > > Now, picture that as it might appear on a sign: > > CREATURE-INDUCED INJURIES > DANGEROUS > DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: > SERIOUS BITES > > Looking only at the first word of each line, you get (phonetically) > Kreacher Dangerous Die Sirius. > Actually, the sign would be: CREATURE-INDUCED INJURIES 'DANGEROUS' DAI LLEWELLYN WARD SERIOUS BITES The ward is named for "Dangerous" Dai Llewellyn, a Quidditch player who didn't know when to quit teasing a chimaera. The story's in QttA. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Fri Aug 15 12:15:10 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:15:10 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: <3F3CC9D5.6000904@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> References: <3F3CC9D5.6000904@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> Message-ID: <3F3CCECE.2030307@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77319 Whoops, looks like I forgot to remove the LaTeX commands and replace them with HTML. Sorry. From acpurplekitty at juno.com Fri Aug 15 09:56:22 2003 From: acpurplekitty at juno.com (acpurplekitty at juno.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 04:56:22 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Which Weasley's going to die? Message-ID: <20030815.045622.-433455.1.acpurplekitty@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77320 quimbyquidditch wrote: According to (I believe) the Harry Potter Lexicon website, the myth of Running Weasel is a complete and total fabrication. No such legend exists. >> Hmm.... I would have sworn that I'd heard that somewhere before I was ever sucked into the Potterverse, although I don't remember the man's name being Running Weasel. Internet research on this topic is, of course, completely useless. I'll hit the library and see if I can turn up anything, or if I'm just a moron who's gotten her facts all screwy. Advance apologies if I was mistaken. *~Aeryn~* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 11:29:32 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:29:32 -0000 Subject: Weasley Death Candidates (WAS: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > ... I think the only real candidates for a Weasley death are > Bill or Charlie , percy less so, J.K.Rowling has said that > the "body count" would rise, I think Bill or Charlie could > die, add the effect of a war, not distress the plot too much > and simple be a good death the fill out this body count. I don't think JKR does anything so simple as "fill out" body counts, and with Ron almost perpetually right beside the fulcrum of the war (Harry), he is certainly in greater danger than is someone like Ernie McMillan, who we rarely find so close to Harry. As for a death that will not "distress the plot," as we still don't know precisely where JKR is leading is with this plot, any assertion that Ron's death would distress it is a bit brazen. We don't know who will die ... except Voldemort, who is a near certain lock for the honor, given Trelawney's prophecy. If we are to be absolutely honest, we still aren't absolutely sure that Harry is the one referred to in Trelawney's prophecy in the first place. Certainly Dubledore believes this to be the case, but we keep seeing very interesting parallels between Neville and Harry, and at no point in the prophecy was it stated WHEN Voldemort would mark his bane as his equal. From the discussions of Lily and runes, we aren't sure that that scar wasn't put there not by Voldemort but by Lily! About all I can say is, please keep an open mind. JKR has a wonderful way of surprising us all, and many of the plot-dogmas we individually cherish (think of all the 'ship wars) are certain to prove ill-held. So, Ron may die ... or Bill, or Charlie, or Ginny ... We don't know, and can only discuss the potential whys. From keltobin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 11:54:59 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:54:59 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77322 > > Marika wrote: > I'm not sure I agree that Draco is that much worse than James Potter. > Draco makes rude comments, he is spiteful towards Harry and his > friends and he sniggers a lot. A few times he has done some really > bad things, but it's not like his favourite sport is to attack an > unprepared and lonely student and humiliate this person in front of > all his class mates. I respectfully disagree. I think humiliating unprepared and lonely students is definitely one of Draco's favorite sports. A few examples: In SS/PS when Draco puts Neville in the leg locker curse and forces him to "bunny hop" back to Griffindor tower from the library? The "Potter Stinks" buttons. Numerous cruel attacks on Hermione concerning her appearance (teeth, hair) and her Muggle parentage ("Mudblood" remarks). His willingness to curse Harry with his back turned in the famous "bouncing ferret" scene in GoF. I also think that the Weasley is Our King in OoTP counts as humiliating someone in front of their classmates. Ron isn't exactly the best person to deal with humiliation considering his low self- esteem. Draco seems to have the ability to find a persons weak point and aim for it. He also seems to have a charismatic way of leading others to join him in his taunting. This is evidenced by at least two incidences where Draco involved all of Slytherin (Weasley is Our King) and almost all of the school (Potter Stinks) in his taunting. Cheers, Kelly From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Aug 15 12:25:14 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:25:14 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Final Battle Message-ID: <1c8.de29c65.2c6e2b2a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77323 In a message dated 8/11/2003 10:13:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time, catportkey at aol.com writes: > There has to be a final standoff between Harry and LV. > My assumption is that Harry, who, much like his dad, may want to learn how > to > become an Animagi in book 6, i.e., a stag. JKR has said that Harry will NOT become an Animagus. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Fri Aug 15 12:31:48 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:31:48 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] MALFOY and HARRY Message-ID: <91.31b9e397.2c6e2cb4@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77324 In a message dated 8/14/2003 12:07:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, miss_america_03 at yahoo.com writes: > Does anyone other than myself believe that Malfoy and Harry will > make amends? JKR has said that harry & Draco will not become friends. Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 15 12:33:42 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:33:42 -0000 Subject: My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: <3F3CC9D5.6000904@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77325 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ravenclaw Black wrote: Nice review. I hope it's okay to give my opinion to some of your points: > > My disappointment began with chapter thirty seven: \emph{The Lost > Prophesy}. Within a few moments, we go from believing that an > invaluable piece of information has been lost forever, to discovering > that Dumbledore had it the whole time. He uses the Pensieve to recall > the words Sibyll Trelawney spoke to him sixteen years ago. I was not surprised at all about this. The fact, that the Order wanted to guard the prophecy, and not hear it, made me already guess, that at least Dumbledore would know its content. > > So what was the point? > > Why bother guarding the prophecy at all? > > Try as I might, I could find no reason given in the text to guard the > prophecy other than to keep it from Voldemort. If keeping this > information from You-Know-Who was so important, why not have Harry > retrieve it. Or, if Dumbledore does not yet want Harry to know about > his future, why not destroy the prophecy? Harry destroyed hundreds > during his battle with the death eaters. That indeed, would be a very logical and good way, and I know that my explanation is unsatisfying. But if the Order had smashed the prophecy, there would have been no story. You could as well ask, why the fake Moody didn't transport Harry to the graveyard much earlier by telling him: "Harry, please bring me that", instead of using such a difficult way with the Triwizard Tournament. It happens anytime, in most films I have ever seen and books I have read. The characters often behave stupid, because for the sake of the plot. I honestly think, this "mistake" was more harmless than the one in GOF, I mentioned above. > > > For example, Sirius's confinement to 12 Grimuald Place. Rowling has > already shown us a number of ways Sirius could get a breath of fresh air > or see Harry. We have invisibility cloaks, polyjuice potions, and > apparational transport. Apparation is to much of a risk, Sirius still could be seen. Polyjuice potions takes a long time, Hermione needed weeks to make it, and my guess is that the Order needed their invisibility cloaks for more important reasons, than Sirius going out for a walk. > > Very little happens in this book. Sure, Dolourus Umbridge is an > masochistic, worthless bureaucrat who does her best to bring Hogwarts > under the control of the ministry. But does it matter? No. She has no > lasting effect on Hogwarts. I think you are wrong here. Umbridge was the main reason most parts of the school started to work together. That is exactly what the Sorting Hat wanted and was very important. Therefore she was more important for the overall plot, as, for example, Gilderoy Lockhardt. > Fudge and the Ministry deny the existence > of Voldemort, but once again, this is irrelevant. Voldmort does nothing > with the time. No. He sends envies to the giants, he brings the Dementors to his side. He tries to get the prophecy. This is at least something. Although not to much, considering that he had a year time. Maybe this is the reason the Order didn't destroy the prophecy? They wanted Voldemort to waste his time with it. > > His death was abrupt and pointless. That, in itself is not a bad > thing. Most death in the world in abrupt and pointless. We do not all > get to die heroically and deliver a last speech to our loved ones. > However, I do not think his death was handled well. To kill him by > means of a device we have only just learned about 10 pages previously > leaves a bad taste in my mouth. JKR has repeatedly stated in interviews > that his death is permanent. He is not coming back. If this is the > case, why not kill him in a more 'clearly dead' manner? Hit him with > Avanda Kadarvra. Have him poisoned. Perhaps a wild hippogryph could > kill him. But no. Poof. He's dead. There is no body. > > Very unsatisfying. > Yes, I agree with you. I think Rowling did this on surpose, so that at first neither Harry nor the readers realise that he is alraedy dead, and it needed time to sink in. Nonetheless, I also am a bit disappointed with the way it was written. However, the scene afterwards with Nearly Headless Nick and all were IMO excellent. > > While I did love this book for bringing me back into the Widzarding > World, it has displaced \emph{Chamber of Secrets} as my least favorite > in the series. I hope no future book displace this one. I hardly doubt a book in this series will be able to displace COS from my least favourites list. COS was IMO a pretty boring book, plus it had to much Gilderoy Lockhardt and Colin Creevey. Hickengruendler From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 15 12:34:39 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:34:39 -0000 Subject: My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > > > > I hardly doubt a book in this series will be able to displace COS > from my least favourites list. COS was IMO a pretty boring book, plus > it had to much Gilderoy Lockhardt and Colin Creevey. > > Hickengruendler I wanted to write "I doubt...". Forget the hardly. *g* Hickengruendler From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Fri Aug 15 12:42:00 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:42:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F3CD518.6030509@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77327 > That indeed, would be a very logical and good way, and I know that my > explanation is unsatisfying. But if the Order had smashed the > prophecy, there would have been no story. You could as well ask, why > the fake Moody didn't transport Harry to the graveyard much earlier > by telling him: "Harry, please bring me that", instead of using such > a difficult way with the Triwizard Tournament. It happens anytime, in > most films I have ever seen and books I have read. The characters > often behave stupid, because for the sake of the plot. I honestly > think, this "mistake" was more harmless than the one in GOF, I > mentioned above. To me, to have characters do something for the sake of the plot is bad writing. I wasn't too pleased with the portkey in book four either : ) > I think you are wrong here. Umbridge was the main reason most parts > of the school started to work together. That's a good point, but I don't think most of the school was working together. It was pretty much the D.A. that became and inter house organization. > Maybe this > is the reason the Order didn't destroy the prophecy? They wanted > Voldemort to waste his time with it. That's the best reason I've heard yet. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From drdara at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 12:46:24 2003 From: drdara at yahoo.com (danielle dassero) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:46:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: <3F3CA8D5.5102.648BB6@localhost> Message-ID: <20030815124624.9933.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77328 After the Shrieking Shack incident, Lupin could have felt necessary to stop being a prefect. He felt that it was his fault. When Lupin stepped down, maybe DD gave James the prefect position for the rest of their 6th year. Because of that and his popularity with students, quidditch and all that he became Headboy. Danielle __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 12:50:29 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:50:29 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mmouse322" wrote: > > ..., but I do agree that if book six is anywhere close to OotP's > tone, it would kill a lot of the excitement people have for HP. I > knowit's not "realistic" for a boy like Harry to not show some anger > and bitterness, but flying over London on an invisable horse isn't > very realistic either, is it? I just hope that book six shows Harry > back to normal and not so brooding; ...edited... > > mmouse322 bboy_mn: I'm going to weigh in on several points on this issue of Harry Potter as 'great' literature. 1.) You statement above RE: book 5 and Harry's anger. I am baffled by people not understand Harry's anger. He went through a massively tramatics experience, then he was shipped off home with no support system of any kind; of ANY KIND. He left with limited contact, no information on an event to which he is intimately and integrally tied. Left with his boiling emotions, doubt, uncertainy, regret, guilt, anger, fear, resentment, and most important of all, no way to purge these feeling, or means to put them in perspective. No resources what so ever to help him deal with them. He is in fact, left alone and unsupported to stew in overwhelming unresolved mostly negative emotions, and people wonder why those emotions are amplified????? Duh, what else could happen? Is there anyone one of us whose emotions would not be compounded under these circumstances? Is there any one of us who would not feel an ever increasing boil of anger and resentment at being emotionally and physically abondoned in our most desperate and needy time? If you think you could get through this massive trama, sense of abandonment, fear, and uncertainy, and come out of it calm, cool, and collected, then you are certainly more emotionally stable than 99.999999% of the rest of the humans on this earth. Personally, I think if Harry had reacted to any milder degree than he did, I would have been far more worried about his sanity. His reaction was, in my opinion, the only normal and reasonable reaction under the circumstances. 2.) Literature- Explain to my why some authors who are technically proficient, follow all the rules of style and construct, and create technically perfect books, end up gather dust on the shelves, just barely published and mostly unread? Why are there books with high techical acclaim, but little or know popular acclaim? Because it is not the technicalities that create a great book. For a moment let's move to the realm of story telling in the oral tradition. I was watching a PBS documentary on stories in the oral tradition. Did you know that there are festivals where people gather together in the spirit of fun and competition to hear people tell stories? In any event, I recall one specific story teller. He was from the hills of Appalachia (mountain range, east coast, USA). He was uneducated, his gramar was atrocious, his speech was fragemented and rambling, in other words, his techinical proficiency at public speaking stunk to high heaven, but he was a captivating story teller; a master. Once he started to speak, you were mesmerized. He was like a living train wreck, you just could not turn your eyes away. I started to read 'The Hobbit' because everyone told me it was the most wonderful book and an essential lead in to the even better 'Lord of the Rings' series. So, I borrowed a copy and started to read it. DAMN IT WAS BORING. As technically perfect as it may have been, NOTHING EVER HAPPENED. I read page after page, and I couldn't find any story anywhere. It just rambled on and on with incomprehensible names and places, and in my opinion, pointless rambling that by no means ever added up to any kind of story. I thought if I kept reading I would surely die of bordom, so I gave the book back and said, 'thanks, but no thanks'. JKR does a lot of things that by most standards of writing, are wrong. You DON'T WRITE IN ALL CAPS, (and you don't use paranthesis). You don't write short 3, 4, and 5 word sentences; everybody know you are suppose to elaborate on every scene in order to create a mental image for the reader. Most high school English composition teachers would be very critical of the technical structure of JKR's work. Ask youself how much you know about Ron? To what degree has he been described in detail? He's tall, lanky, has a pointed nose, and an inference of big feet, and that is about it. But, on the other hand, how many of you have your own very precise mental image of Ron? Most of you do, I would speculate. I know exactly what Ron looks like. I know how he combs and parts his hair. I know subtle barely distinguishable inflections in his speech. I know how he walks. I know every detail of is face. I know his attitute, his demeanor, his posture, I even know what goes on inside his head. I know his secret dreams and fears. I predicted in my own writing a couple years ago, just how Ron would react to Ginny dating. So where did I get that? What do I know about any Hobbit? Other than they were bland, dull, boring and short, not much. What does that all add up to? It adds up to a story. Not a techincally correct complilation of words, because many of them never ever ever make it into print. Those who can tell a good tale, those who can spin a captivating yarn, a tale the readers can identify with, a tale that has both superficial, and much deeper more poignant underlying meaning; these are the things that make great literature. Technical perfection is nothing without a captivating story, and without a doubt, and irrespective of technicalities, JKR tells a masterful story, thoughly captivating and enchanting. It is never technical perfection that makes a piece of literature stand the test of time, it is the presents of a captivating, entrancing, and emotionally moving story. THE STORY IS KING. 3.) Where will Harry, or at least, his emotions go next? Harry's already overburdened life has had heaped upon it the heaviest burden of all, and life in the last year has taught him a lesson that he probably has not learned with the clearest of minds. Give that he has no support network to help him put that lesson into perspective, I can see no other reaction from Harry than the worst possible reaction. I think the subconscious lesson he learn or thinks he has learned, is that to know him and to love him is to die. Better to not be known or loved, than to have those you know and love die because of you. JKR has already set Harry's self-imposed sense of and act of isolation into motion. I think we will see this as a major theme in the next book; Harry displaying a self-imposed, thoroughly misguided, and ultimately dangerous self-isolation. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. bboy_mn From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 12:55:47 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:55:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's Scar Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77330 Okay, I admit that his scar does resemble the ruin Ewaiz (sp?), but everyone in the book says the scar was created by LV's spell that was meant to kill Harry. DD says it, Hagrid says it, and so forth. I know no one was there to see the scar created as the green beam of light bounced off Harry's head and back to LV, but JKR is not vague in the recounting the events of the night. She leaves out only descriptive details. If the argument of Harry didn't come back out of the wand in OotP, well, the spell didn't work, so, IMHO Harry would not be in there. What I am asking is, where did the the belief come from that his scar is not from LV, but from his mother? Is there something in the book? Or is this purely speculation that has a small cult following? Severus "just the facts, maam" Snape From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 13:11:26 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:11:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77331 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > Harry may have his mother's eyes in shape and color, but the poor > kid inherited the poor eyesight from Dad! > Yet, the question remains ... is there no cure? YES. > And if Harry went to a muggle for glasses, do wizards go to > specialists for their eyes? YES. > Do they purchase them at Lenswizards? YES. > And are the frames as expensive as muggle frames? NO. Eye glasses are the consummate RIP OFF. $350 for some wire and a couple pieces of pastic; please. > Come to think of it, Harry probably got his glasses from Muggle > Lenscrafters - - they keep on breaking. Wizard glasses are probably > unbreakable. > > Pook bboy_mn: You are aware, or perhaps not, that muggle can cure nearsightedness. There is a method developed decades ago called the Bates method. developed by William Bates. It is a proven method for curing neardsightedness. So why don't we muggles us it? Why, because we are a society driven by commerce. There is no money to be made in curing people. Especially, when those people can go home and cure themselves after a few consultations, and there is nothing to prevent those people from passing the information on to their friends free of charge. Search Google for 'Bates Method' and you'll find hunderds of sites on this subject. I suspect wizards can cure many vision problems, afterall, most vision problems are just a change in the shape of the eyeball that prevents the eye lense from sharply focusing on the retina. Magically forcing the eyeball back into shape can't be that hard. But ask yourself this, why does Dumbledore still have a scar on his knee? Why does Dumbledore still have a broken nose? Certainly those could be fixed. I think partly it is because, they are battle scars, momentos and signs of past experience. You see a scared and broken wizard (Moody) and you respect him because you know that this is a person who has been many place, seen many things, and has much life experience. As far as most glasses we see, I get the sense that they are reading glasses, it seems like I remember Dumbledore frequently looking over the top of his glasses. As far as the eyes in general, Dumbledore is +150 years old; wizards live and die, they are not immortal. Their bodies do deteriorate with time, and apprently that normal deterioratoin can not be completely undone. Wizard, like all living things, eventually run out of time. There is also a vanity aspect of it. I think to some extent, the presents of glasses enhances a wizard's or witches' appearance of 'wisdom' and intelligence. Don't we automatically associate glasses with Nerds? Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 15 13:20:24 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:20:24 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77332 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly" wrote: Marika wrote: > > I'm not sure I agree that Draco is that much worse than James > Potter. > > Draco makes rude comments, he is spiteful towards Harry and his > > friends and he sniggers a lot. A few times he has done some really > > bad things, but it's not like his favourite sport is to attack an > > unprepared and lonely student and humiliate this person in front of > > all his class mates. > Kelly's answer: > I respectfully disagree. I think humiliating unprepared and lonely > students is definitely one of Draco's favorite sports. A few examples: > > In SS/PS when Draco puts Neville in the leg locker curse and forces > him to "bunny hop" back to Griffindor tower from the library? > > The "Potter Stinks" buttons. > > Numerous cruel attacks on Hermione concerning her appearance (teeth, > hair) and her Muggle parentage ("Mudblood" remarks). > > His willingness to curse Harry with his back turned in the > famous "bouncing ferret" scene in GoF. > > I also think that the Weasley is Our King in OoTP counts as > humiliating someone in front of their classmates. Ron isn't exactly > the best person to deal with humiliation considering his low self- > esteem. > Marika again: Ooops, I had totally forgotten the "Neville-episode". You're right. That's absolutely a bad one. But when it comes to Harry and his friends, I believe that Draco feels justified in acting the way he does. I'm not saying he is - but in his mind he is just getting even. Harry humiliated him the first day at school when he turned down his offer of friendship. Harry reacted like every decent person would have done, but since Draco is raised to believe that your family history is important, he can't see what's so upsetting about his offer. Harry, Ron and Hermione stand up for each other. They are not lonely outsiders. When Potter and Black on the other hand attacked Snape, it seemed like they did it just for fun and that Snape didn't have any real friends. This might not be true, but for now, that's all we know. I'm not trying to say that Draco is a nice guy. He isn't. But from what I have seen of him so far, I don't think he is a hundred times worse than James Potter. But he might be very soon, unless something happens to change his view of the world. Marika From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 14:20:23 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:20:23 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: <3F3C5DA8.1070105@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77333 > feetmadeofclay wrote: > > English Common law requires that the justices be a self- administered > > body distinguished from the legislative and the executive arms of > > government. Fudge may repesent the excutive, Arthur's job may > > represent the legislative since we know he writes laws even if he > > doesn't pass them. I get the feeling bureaucrats like Arthur write > > the laws, Fudge's team looks them over and they are sent directly to > > the Queen for official signing. "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > The Queen has nothing to do with wizarding law. The decrees emanating > from the Ministry were signed by Fudge, not the Queen. Me: Why is everybody talking about the Queen? Who cares about her? She doesn't have any power...I'd be more concerned with how the Prime Minister relates to all this (which T.M. Sommers did), if you wanted to related it to the British Ministry at all! I know the PM knows about the WW, but it seems to me that the MoM spends most of its times making sure the rest of the muggle world *don't* know about the WW. As far as making laws go, the British government has absolutely NOTHING to do with the MoM. And the Queen? Are you serious, feetmadeofclay??? James Redmont From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 14:28:36 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:28:36 -0000 Subject: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > But the Lestranges and Crouch Jr didn't torture the Longbottoms until > after Voldemort tried to kill Harry and lost all his powers. They > tortured the Longbottoms for information on the whereabouts of > Voldemort. In GoF, Dumbledore (I think) mentions that the incident > was so horrific because it occurred after things were settling down > from the war. > > KathyK Me: Too right. Am I the only one who's sick of telling people things like this? I think the admins should start making a list of facts people keep screwing up and list them in the database somewhere. For instance: Percy *was* one of the bodies Mrs. Weasley saw with the boggart. Narcissa's maiden name *was* Black. Mundungus and Crookshanks have been in the same room at the same time! Droobles Best Blowing Gum is called such in the AMERICAN BOOKS as well as the U.K. edition. See the first book (which apparently, no one feels they have to read anymore since it's made into a movie!) And of course the Lestranges tortured Frank and Alice *after* Harry got rid of Voldemort. James Redmont, who feels that getting the facts straight will allow these discussions to be more enjoyable! From darkthirty at shaw.ca Fri Aug 15 14:33:33 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (lunalovegoodrules) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:33:33 -0000 Subject: What's different about OOP (WAS: a great representation of our time) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77335 "Between the absence of Hagrid and the presence of those dragonish horses, he had felt that his return to Hogwarts, so long anticipated, was full of unexpected surprises, like jarring notes in a familiar song." JKR is telling us here exactly what she is doing in the book. This is the definitive meta, as it were, in OOP. The sentence thus in fact reads - "Between the absence of naivete and the presence of death's remembrance, the book, so long anticipated, is full of unexpected surprises, like jarring notes in a familiar song." I posted this before, but in these "Rowling's worth as a writer" threads, it might be time to ask those who gripe about OOP not being "the same" to clarify WHAT is different about it, because perhaps some of the criticism, being applicable to the whole series, but focussing on OOP, betrays what is in fact a criticism of where Rowling has taken the thematic material. That is to say - the "defend OOP" and "Rowling's pedestrian style" threads are, in fact, not about anything that has changed in Rowling's style, but about changes in Rowling's presentation of her themes. That's what I believe, actually. First, what is different about it, we should ask, the more specific the better, and then we should ask why. For, do the original posts in fact present a case at all, or are they just pouts? It seems, in fact, reading these threads, that some listees want other listees to reassure them of the validity of Rowling as literature, and by extension their own interest in Rowling. While some might enjoin responding, and others enjoy asking, I think seeking clarification from the original thread posters might refocus the discussion to more interesting areas than those that seem to be taking up so much list space. >From the SOED 5th Edition - literature 3. a. Literary productions as a whole; the body of writings produced in a particular country or period. Now also spec., that kind of written composition valued on account of its qualities of form or emotional effect. E19. American literature, English literature, Russian literature, etc. Wisdom literature: see WISDOM. S. Spender Trying to distinguish the kind of writing which is literature from that which is worthless. J. Plamenatz The quality of a literature does not always improve..as population increases and literacy spreads. This is obviously the sense about which some are talking. Translated roughly, it means, will Rowling be filed under "classics" at the chain bookstores in some decades? Now, in the used book stores there is often no such aisle. And in university bookstores, there is rather a "course" aisle, and a "fiction" aisle. Is the concept so central? How long has "literature" been "literature." Are we discussing Chapters' filing criteria? Or what? That is why I think, to all those posters, we must address the questions I've suggested. Because if we're discussing Chapters' filing criteria, I can happily go on to a more fruitful thread, but if we are talking about Rowling, style and meaning, that is, at least, interesting. dan From tatiana6336 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 14:39:40 2003 From: tatiana6336 at hotmail.com (daelyn_duprer) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:39:40 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: <20030815075842.43228.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Valli Porter wrote: Valli said: Often I think there are two factions among people who author books: the storytellers and the writers. I want to be a writer because I'm attracted to expression through language and "saying something," which isn't always conducive to story form. But often storytellers are the authors that capture the public. Of course, our greatest books are written by authors who have both the knack for weaving a worthwhile tale in such mesmerizing words that we can't help but read. That is the highest definition of "literature" I can conjure. Me: Well said! For me, books are often like trying on clothes. I have to slip into the language and story of each one. Both Austen and Tolkien, the first time around, were difficult for me, and I didn't understand their popularity. However, I grew into them, and now both are among my favorite and most re-read authors. Some other "classics" I have never enjoyed, but recognize their masterly use of language. Some books I have enjoyed despite poor use of language but excellent storytelling. Vallie: For me, J.K. Rowling's work is great because she is plainly a wonderful storyteller. And she doesn't drag us through the tale with the same sordid approach all of those MFA graduates did. She incorporates word play and a certain colloquial rhythm. She isn't constructing sentences that are impossible to diagram, and she is of course limited by the form she chose in writing the series (how many times do we have to joke that the most shattering events in Harry's life always happen in the first three weeks of June?). But I know that I love to lose myself in Jo's imagination. Sometimes I wish I could live in it instead of my own -- the Wizarding World seems to hold so many possibilities. If people in fifty or a hundred years want to lose themselves in the same way we all have been, then I don't doubt Harry will survive the harsh critic of time, even if our best simile for how his story is written is warm beer. Me: The thing I love about HP is the way I am lost in her world, and long after I have put the book down I think about its characters and qualities. My favorite books do this to me - I am consumed by them even when not reading. Typically, poorly written books don't do this to me. This is why I rarely read newspapers or magazines, and the Left Behind series was a torment. JKR is a master storyteller, and while I wouldn't describe her as a master of language, she is certainly proficient, and her simplicity of style and ingenious wordplay is evidence that she is well familiar with her craft. Ray Bradbury she isn't, but none of us care. On occasion, I am jarred out of my 'suspension of disbelief' by what I consider to be a horrendous juxtaposition of words, but such moments are few and far between, and likely only noticed by Literature nuts such as myself. So, while I doubt JKR will end up in a Survey of English Lit course, I know for a fact this will matter very little to her admirers, or even to her status as a classic. Valli: I just recently became and will remain, Veritabatim, who thinks Dumbledore and Lupin are the two characters off-limits to be ESE!, but she'll save it for a more sane hour of the day Me: Long live Lupin! I quite agree with you. > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 14:42:04 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:42:04 -0000 Subject: Which Weasley's going to die? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jedi_hermione" > > In one of the ancient mythologies (I can't recall which one; they all > tend to run together in my mind), a man named Weasley (Weasly in some > variants) was killed by a rat. I've always assumed this was one of > Rowling's cruel namings and indicated that a Weasley would be > murdered by Peter Pettigrew. > > If no one can find a direct Rowling quote contributing to this > theory, it could have originated from mythology instead, and, given > Rowling's record with the matter, is likely accurate. Me: This "myth" has been discussed and dismissed on some sites. If you're going to post something like this, please, PLEASE post a link or page number of a book where we can look it up. We're having enough problems with people misquoted the HP books without spreading rumors about myths... James Redmont, who is happy that some teens can benefit from HP4GU From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 14:54:28 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:54:28 -0000 Subject: My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77338 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > > I hardly doubt a book in this series will be able to displace COS > > from my least favourites list. COS was IMO a pretty boring book, > plus > > it had to much Gilderoy Lockhardt and Colin Creevey. > > Hickengruendler Me: IMHO, I believe if you don't love Lockhart you don't have a sense of humor! My friends and I loff him, but mainly because of the audio books. If you ever get a chance to hear the audio books, please do so...my friend Ginny and I were laughing out loud when we finally heard him say "Harry, Harry, Harry" in the movie, because it was our favorite line from the audio books. James Redmont, who thinks Lockharts vanity is as funny as a baboon's backside From ajlboston at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 15:08:27 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:08:27 -0000 Subject: Harry Quidditch Champ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77339 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tallulah_sam" wrote: > Has anybody considered that apart from Harry becoming an auror or > DADA teacher he could play Quidditch proffessionally? > In PS when Harry gets picked as seeker Wood tells him (sorry i dont > have the book so the quote isnt perfect) that Charlie Weasley could > have played for England if he hadnt run off to look after dragons. > Since then we have been told on numerous occassions that the > Griffindor team is the best ever and harry is better than Charlie > ever was. So.... do we have the new Krum/Bagman on our hands? Oh, yeah, I'd thought that would be the most appropriate career. It's what makes him happiest, and what he does naturally, and is fantastic at it, and if he survives to have a career he won't be chasing LV... and you need no Potions OWLS either... A.J. From catherinemck at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 15:10:46 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:10:46 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77340 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" > > wrote: > > They have *always* been friendly and except for DD, who Snape is > > > deferential to (grammar police on the way) and who treats Snape > > like > > > an annoyance at best--garbage at worst, she's really the only one > > who > > > seems to have any sort of camaraderie with SS that we are privvy > > to. > > > "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > > > Do you really think Dumbledore thinks so little of Snape? I think > > he's rather protective of Snape - he never lets Harry get away with > > just calling him by his last name, he always makes a point of > > correcting him, and reminding Harry that it's *Professor* Snape. > He > > does countermand him sometimes, and at the end of PoA he ends up > > making him look foolish, but honestly, Snape can be IMPOSSIBLE > > sometimes! I don't think it's inconsistent that Dumbledore can > feel > > concern and even affection for his prickly Potions Master, while > > being perfectly aware of his faults and limitations. > > Wanda > > Laura: > > Wanda, I agree with you. Even in the PoA scene when Snape has his > meltdown, DD is gentle. He knows exactly what's going on, which is > why he tells Fudge that Snape has just suffered a severe > disappointment. And he leaves it at that-to go into detail would not > only compromise Sirius, it would embarrass Snape. At the end of GoF, > he is one of the 2 teachers DD trusts to deal with the crisis after > Harry returns from the cemetery. And he trusts Snape, which he says > repeatedly, despite numerous challenges. Up until his utter > mishandling of Harry in OoP, DD showed himself to be remarkably > compassionate and understanding of everyone at Hogwarts. More agreement. Dumbledore is willing to tease people, but he knows not to push too far and is good at oil on troubled waters. I'm particularly thinking of the Christmas dinner scene in PoA when Snape gets the vulture hat and Dumbledore immediately swops it. He knows that Snape is simply incapable of finding this funny and steps in before anything can happen. Very fatherly. Catherine McK From jendiangelo at cox.net Fri Aug 15 15:19:48 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:19:48 -0000 Subject: Question on GoF fight scene Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77341 I know this has been discussed before, but I would appreciate it if someone could lead me to a thread number or URL, because I'm having a hard time finding any info on this (especially since the power outage yesterday disrupted my search). During the fight scene in Chapter 24 of GoF, when James comes out of Voldemort's wand before Lily, I'd like to look at past discussions on this... whether or not it's a FLINT or what theories people have on it. Thanks in advance for any help on this! AccioSirius Jen (who is going back on the hunt) From Meliss9900 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 15:29:24 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:29:24 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Question on GoF fight scene Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77342 In a message dated 8/15/2003 10:20:13 AM Central Standard Time, jendiangelo at cox.net writes: > During the fight scene in Chapter 24 of GoF, when James comes out of > Voldemort's wand before Lily, I'd like to look at past discussions > on this... whether or not it's a FLINT or what theories people have > on it. > Its a Flint. JKR admitted to the error and it has been corrected in subsquent editions [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jendiangelo at cox.net Fri Aug 15 15:34:05 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:34:05 -0000 Subject: Question on GoF fight scene In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Meliss9900 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/15/2003 10:20:13 AM Central Standard Time, > jendiangelo at c... writes: > > > During the fight scene in Chapter 24 of GoF, when James comes out of > > Voldemort's wand before Lily, I'd like to look at past discussions > > on this... whether or not it's a FLINT or what theories people have > > on it. > > > > Its a Flint. JKR admitted to the error and it has been corrected in > subsquent editions Thank you very much! I hadn't heard that it had been corrected, so I was starting to search through her interviews. Thanks again, I appreciate it! From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 15:46:04 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030815154604.5439.qmail@web20008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77344 I wasn't sure what I thought of OOTP when I first read it. It's so different. You spend the majority of the book incredibly frustrated, because that's how the characters feel. I reread it later, and liked it better. But the reason I know that it's good (to me) is that every time I pick it up to read a certain portion (usually the sorting hat song, as I love it) I end up reading through the entire rest of the book. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 15:48:35 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:48:35 -0000 Subject: Harry Quidditch Champ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tallulah_sam" wrote: > Has anybody considered that apart from Harry becoming an auror or > DADA teacher he could play Quidditch proffessionally? > In PS when Harry gets picked as seeker Wood tells him (sorry i dont > have the book so the quote isnt perfect) that Charlie Weasley could > have played for England if he hadnt run off to look after dragons. > Since then we have been told on numerous occassions that the > Griffindor team is the best ever and harry is better than Charlie > ever was. So.... do we have the new Krum/Bagman on our hands? > > Just a thought! > Tallulah Severus here: Isn't there a tread stating Harry is no longer going to play Quidditch? I don't remember anything in OotP that backs this up. I know Umbridge instated a life long ban of Harry playing quidditch, but she is gone, and of course DD is not going to let the ban stay in effect. So, if Harry, like I think he is, starts playing quidditch again, I see no reason for him not to become a star player for England. Harry did say he would like to be an auror after Moody/Crouch Jr. said he had the makings for a auror. But this could be just a phase Harry is going through. McGonagal is supporting him in this endevor also, so you never know. After this war is all over, if I was Harry, I would not want anything to do with law inforcement, I would choose a profession that made me happiest. And it's not like Harry needs to make a serious income since he seems to be quite affluent. If he inheirets Sirius' money, (which must be large sum, since he bought a Firebolt for Harry) He may be as affluent as the Malfoys. Just my opions and mental meanderings. Severus "I wanna play quidditch" Snape From ajlboston at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 15:54:43 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:54:43 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77346 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, IAmLordCassandra at a... wrote: > > > Casey writes: > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he is a > LV supporter if not a DE. I want to know what's going on with Fudge and the Goblins, since it seems clear that something will happen in the upcoming books after the repeated mention of Goblin rebellions, even Three Broomsticks as one of the sites, the Goblin's displeasure with what the wizards have done and with bagman, the unlikely fountain, and then all the Quibbler stuff about Fudge and his angering/persecuting goblins. Similarly, Lichtenstein and what the Giants have amounted to (being crowded unsafely due to wizarding harrassment) all seem to serve as background for whatever happens in the All Beings Cataclysmic War coming up. (But what will the centaurs do? And will the wizards stop being so snobbish so that things are better in the future?) Perhaps Fudge has so alienated the goblins that DE's can entice them, or something... A.J. From keltobin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 12:47:15 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:47:15 -0000 Subject: Fudge Naive or DE? (was "is there a reason?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77347 Fran wrote: > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he is a > LV supporter if not a DE. Around the same passage quoted above, DD > accuses Fudge of "putting too much importance on purity of blood". > Things that bother me about Fudge: > 1) Puts the blame on Sirius for the Potter's, and Wormtails supposed > death without a trial or asking for an explanation. > 2)The deatheaters in POA > 3)The dementors kiss on Barty jr without taking the opportunity to > question him. > 4)The whole parting of the ways. > 5)His continuing reluctance to believe LV is back at the end of OOP. > He didn't exactly go Oh MY God you were right all along DD, he > reacted begrudgingly to it. > 6)He thinks so highly of Lucious Malfoy. Yes I know Lucious gives > money but giving money isnt that big a deal for someone who has > alot. > I realize that this is out there but I just dont believe he is that > naive. I also believe Ludo Bagman is a DE.....Wimbourn Wasp...Wasp > buzzing around in GOF and OOP..... You have some very good points. I think that there is a chance, albeit slim, that Fudge may be a DE after all. Personally, I think he is representative of a bureaucratic politician who prefers "business as usual" and will avoid "rocking the boat" at all costs. I also get the feeling that he is almost completely unable to make decisions on his own. Instead, it appears that he takes other peoples solutions and acts on them. This can be evidenced by the following points: - In SS/ PS when Hagrid tells Harry "They wanted Dumbledore fer Minister, o' course, but he's never leave Hogwarts, so old Cornelius Fudge got the job. Bungler if ever there was one. So he pelts Dumbledore with owls every morning, askin' fer advice (SS 64-5)." - In CoS in the chapter Cornelius Fudge there are numerous quotes from Fudge that make him appear to be doing the bidding of others rather than making a decision of his own. "'Hagrid's record's against him. Ministry's got to do something -- the school's governors have been in touch -- CoS 261).'" In the same scene in CoS Fudge is seen with his "Upper lip sweating" and "fiddling with his bowler." He only makes a show of a stance against Malfoy and seems, in general, more worried about what people will think than future deaths at Hogwarts. We have the glaring example at the end of GoF. Fudge is much more worried about being thrown out of office than the possibility that people are in danger. I believe he orders the dementor's kiss on Crouch without a trial because of his fear that Dumbledore is telling the truth. In fact, I think he knows that Voldemort is back, yet is in a serious stage of denial. The most obvious examples of Fudge's incompetence are in OoTP. He blindly passes the "Educational Decree"s seemingly based on Umbridge's recommendations. His relationship with Malfoy seems to be a surrogate for his lost relationship with Dumbledore (i.e. he needs a person to help him make decisions). In short, I think that it is unlikely that Fudge is a death eater. However, his incompetence and naivete are rungs in the ladder that could allow the DE to rise to power. His pure blood attitude could be seen as a DE trait. However, I think that it is safe to say that many non DE wizards have similar feelings about this. Bagman... well not so sure about him. I think he is a tad smarter than he portrays himself, but there just doesn't seem to be enough evidence pointing one way or the other. The fact that he was cleared of charges means little since the court is fallible and the jury was certainly blinded by his celebrity status. Hopefully we see him again and find out one way or the other. From rubykelly at webtv.net Fri Aug 15 12:57:40 2003 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:57:40 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77348 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Can't find a meaning for Bilius. A bit off the point, but in Terry > Pratchett's Hogfather, Bilious is the OhGod of Hangovers.Cheers Bilius is a Slavic/Eastern European surname; there is a boxer with the name Bilius and also a physicist. I think there may be a St. Bilius, and it may be a Roman name too. I don't know what it means though. Kat O'Klzmk/rxk From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 15:55:31 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:55:31 -0000 Subject: Why the Order didn't destroy the prophecy in OoP(was: Re: My Order of the Phoen In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77349 Hickengruendler wrote: > Maybe this > is the reason the Order didn't destroy the prophecy? They wanted > Voldemort to waste his time with it. You're right. Maybe Dumbledore's plan was to ambush Voldemort who, himself, was trying to ambush Harry (aka : the ultimate human bait). Let's summarize it that way: 1 Voldemort's intentions a) to lay hands on the prophecy b) to have control on Harry/kill him 2 Dumbledfore's intentions a) to take advantage of VD's attempt against Harry by putting a trap in which he fell (very risky as far as we can judge from the result) b) to give strong (undeniable) evidence of VD's return (after all, Fudge wasn't there witnessing the whole thing by a mere chance : DD had set up everything) c) to stregthen his personnal authority vis-?-vis the MOM and consequently the WW d) to back up and corroborate what Harry said about the Death Eaters e) to reinforce the latter's position in the WW (he is no longer the crazy boy as described in the Daily Prophet but a true hero) f) (thanks to e)) to ensure the unity of the four Houses of Hogwarts behind Harry thus complying with the sorting hat's request. After all, the book's last chapter is entitled "The Second War Begins". It was perhaps DD's will to have his "army" drawn up in battle array before the war really begins - something that was cruelly lacking during the first war against VD as stated by many of its actual members, i.e. Molly (DD needed time to achieve that and get the MOM to back him ; VD gave him time enough AND the MOM's support but at a great cost : Sirius' life and Harry's wrath throughout the book and perhaps beyond). (Of course, DD could have destroyed the prophecy while trying to gull VD, but it would have been even more risky. Had there been a traitor amongst the members of the Order, his attempt would have been doomed to failure.) P.S. : Hickengruendler wrote : > I hardly doubt a book in this series will be able to displace COS > from my least favourites list. COS was IMO a pretty boring book, plus > it had to much Gilderoy Lockhardt and Colin Creevey. Am I the only person outa here who loved CoS ?! I found G. Lockheart very VERY funny (much more than in the movie, beyond compare dare I say ;-) ) AAm. -!(^_^)!- From tminton at deckerjones.com Fri Aug 15 16:21:59 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:21:59 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE248780@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77350 James said: Am I the only one who's sick of telling people things like this? James Redmont, who feels that getting the facts straight will allow these discussions to be more enjoyable! Now Me (Tonya) I really agree!! Nothing more I can say!! Tonya (stepping back into the corner where I am much more comfortable) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 16:25:21 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:25:21 -0000 Subject: Voldemort's choice of Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > CW comments: > > > > My theory is that only baby Neville had been hidden by his parents, > > maybe with his grandmother, and the two of them were protected by > the > > same Fidelius charm that the Potters used. His parents, the > > Lestranges, remained out in the world fighting with the rest of the > > Order, and Bellatrix was detailed off by Voldemort to try and > torture > > them into revealing his whereabouts. When she failed, Voldie > guessed > > it was a Fidelius charm and that Dorcas Meadows was the secret > > keeper, so he went after her personally. > > But the Lestranges and Crouch Jr didn't torture the Longbottoms until > after Voldemort tried to kill Harry and lost all his powers. They > tortured the Longbottoms for information on the whereabouts of > Voldemort. In GoF, Dumbledore (I think) mentions that the incident > was so horrific because it occurred after things were settling down > from the war. > > KathyK CW reply: Kathy, you are quite right, I had forgotten the timing. Thanks for pointing this out ........ From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 16:32:11 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 09:32:11 -0700 Subject: Writing the death...was Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1671977097.20030815093211@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77352 Hi, Thursday, August 14, 2003, 9:11:01 PM, Richard wrote: > As I recall (and please forgive imperfect memory) she said that she > cried while "killing" Sirius, but that she expects to cry far more > when she writes a later death ... in fact, she rather dreads writing > it. I'm pretty sure JKR said she cried when writing Cedric's death, and dreaded writing another (which I now assume was Sirius). I don't recall a Weasley death specifically mentioned at all, though this doesn't mean it won't happen, of course... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 16:43:41 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:43:41 -0000 Subject: Fudge Naive or DE? (was "is there a reason?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly" wrote: > Fran wrote: > > > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he is > a > > LV supporter if not a DE. Around the same passage quoted above, DD > > accuses Fudge of "putting too much importance on purity of blood". > > Things that bother me about Fudge: > > 1) Puts the blame on Sirius for the Potter's, and Wormtails > supposed > > death without a trial or asking for an explanation. > > 2)The deatheaters in POA > > 3)The dementors kiss on Barty jr without taking the opportunity to > > question him. > > 4)The whole parting of the ways. > > 5)His continuing reluctance to believe LV is back at the end of > OOP. > > He didn't exactly go Oh MY God you were right all along DD, he > > reacted begrudgingly to it. > > 6)He thinks so highly of Lucious Malfoy. Yes I know Lucious gives > > money but giving money isnt that big a deal for someone who has > > alot. > > I realize that this is out there but I just dont believe he is that > > naive. I also believe Ludo Bagman is a DE.....Wimbourn Wasp...Wasp > > buzzing around in GOF and OOP..... > > You have some very good points. I think that there is a chance, > albeit slim, that Fudge may be a DE after all. Personally, I think > he is representative of a bureaucratic politician who > prefers "business as usual" and will avoid "rocking the boat" at all > costs. I also get the feeling that he is almost completely unable to > make decisions on his own. Instead, it appears that he takes other > peoples solutions and acts on them. This can be evidenced by the > following points: > > - In SS/ PS when Hagrid tells Harry "They wanted Dumbledore fer > Minister, o' course, but he's never leave Hogwarts, so old Cornelius > Fudge got the job. Bungler if ever there was one. So he pelts > Dumbledore with owls every morning, askin' fer advice (SS 64-5)." > > - In CoS in the chapter Cornelius Fudge there are numerous quotes > from Fudge that make him appear to be doing the bidding of others > rather than making a decision of his own. > "'Hagrid's record's against him. Ministry's got to do > something -- the school's governors have been in touch -- CoS 261).'" > > In the same scene in CoS Fudge is seen with his "Upper lip > sweating" and "fiddling with his bowler." He only makes a show of a > stance against Malfoy and seems, in general, more worried about what > people will think than future deaths at Hogwarts. > > We have the glaring example at the end of GoF. Fudge is much more > worried about being thrown out of office than the possibility that > people are in danger. I believe he orders the dementor's kiss on > Crouch without a trial because of his fear that Dumbledore is telling > the truth. In fact, I think he knows that Voldemort is back, yet is > in a serious stage of denial. > > The most obvious examples of Fudge's incompetence are in OoTP. He > blindly passes the "Educational Decree"s seemingly based on > Umbridge's recommendations. His relationship with Malfoy seems to be > a surrogate for his lost relationship with Dumbledore (i.e. he needs > a person to help him make decisions). > > In short, I think that it is unlikely that Fudge is a death eater. > However, his incompetence and naivete are rungs in the ladder that > could allow the DE to rise to power. His pure blood attitude could > be seen as a DE trait. However, I think that it is safe to say that > many non DE wizards have similar feelings about this. > > Bagman... well not so sure about him. I think he is a tad smarter > than he portrays himself, but there just doesn't seem to be enough > evidence pointing one way or the other. The fact that he was cleared > of charges means little since the court is fallible and the jury was > certainly blinded by his celebrity status. Hopefully we see him > again and find out one way or the other. Thanks for the great reply! However, something just doesn't sit well with me concerning Fudge. Labeling him as a DE may be well out there but I still feel he is a LV supporter at the least. I remember reading something Sirius said about his family, while not DE's except his brother, but supporters of LV. Now for Bagman: still see him as the wasp flying around when Harry was practicing in GOF to make sure that Harry is doing well in preparation for the Triwizards Tournement and me thinks same said wasp buzzing around during the OWLs. IMO Harry seeing Bagman in the pensieve as a possible DE, and Winky's comments indicate that there is more to Bagman than meets the eye. JKR said in an interview that Harry's eyes are his vulnerability and I think it applies to other characters in the book as well. There seems to be alot of short- sightedness in the book. Fran From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 16:48:02 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:48:02 -0000 Subject: Fudge Naive or DE? (was "is there a reason?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77354 > Fran wrote: > > > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he is > a > > LV supporter if not a DE. > "Kelly" wrote: > You have some very good points. I think that there is a chance, > albeit slim, that Fudge may be a DE after all. Personally, I think > he is representative of a bureaucratic politician who > prefers "business as usual" and will avoid "rocking the boat" at all > costs. I also get the feeling that he is almost completely unable to > make decisions on his own. Instead, it appears that he takes other > peoples solutions and acts on them. > The most obvious examples of Fudge's incompetence are in OoTP. He > blindly passes the "Educational Decree"s seemingly based on > Umbridge's recommendations. His relationship with Malfoy seems to be > a surrogate for his lost relationship with Dumbledore (i.e. he needs > a person to help him make decisions). Laura: I would again suggest the relevance of the "banality of evil" theory. Most of us are neither outstandingly evil nor outstandingly good, it seems to me. We do our best and try to make the right decisions, and we're vulnerable to lots of different kinds of pressures that can allow us to convince ourselves that "right" means "what's best for me". That's how evil can take power-by putting people in a position to, as DD put it, choose between what is right and what is easy, and giving them reasons to choose the latter. LV and those real-life villains with whom we are all too familiar don't need everyone to be a party member, as it were. They just need people to go along and not fight back. That's Fudge's sin. It appears from a couple of his interactions with DD (for instance, at the end of GoF when he says "[Voldemort] can't be back, Dumbledore, he just can't be" (GoF p 709 US) that he knows in his heart what's going on, but to avoid controversy that might cost him his job, he covers it up. Yes, Fudge has that stupid pure-blood thing, but that doesn't make him a DE, just a bigot. I'd also suggest that Fudge isn't looking to Lucius so much as a replacement for DD as for someone who will suck up to him and support his wretched decisions. (An occasional pocketful of galleons never hurts either.) Malfoy may be manipulating Fudge, which would be pretty easy to do, but I think Fudge likes the idea of this old- family pure-blood bigshot toadying to him. From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 16:50:49 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:50:49 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape /SHIP McGonagall In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77355 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, I wrote: except for DD, who Snape is deferential to (grammar police on the way) and who treats Snape like an annoyance at best--garbage at worst, > > then "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > > > Do you really think Dumbledore thinks so little of Snape? I think > > > he's rather protective of Snape - he never lets Harry get away with > > > just calling him by his last name, he always makes a point of > > > correcting him, and reminding Harry that it's *Professor* Snape. Laura agreed: > > > > Wanda, I agree with you. And so did Catherine: > More agreement. Dumbledore is willing to tease people, but he knows > not to push too far But you misunderstand me. I never said what I believe DD *thinks* of Snape. He obviously trusts him. He trusts him with students, he trusts him as a spy, he trusts him with Harry--the son of his (Snape's) enemy. But he still treats him SHABBILY. A couple of quick examples off the top of my head: He discounts everything he says (what we've seen of it) with idiotic comments about things like pudding. He wipes the floor with his beloved Slytherin House points at the leaving feast. How EVER you feel about who deserved how many points at that moment, you should agree DD SHOULD have given Severus a 'heads up' on what was going to happen. No, there's no indication that he didn't do just that, but there is certainly nothing to suggest he did. I would LOVE to imagine that DD took him aside and poured him a large drink after the Shrieking Shack Tantrum incident and explained the Sirius/Peter situation to him. (Remember, S. was unconcious. He honestly believed he was doing the right thing there). Unfortunately I'd be LESS surprised to find out DD let Severus go on believing they'd all been duped by a 13 year old. The scene at the end of OoP in which DD confesses mishandling Harry makes me wonder if he's not also thinking he might have mishandled Severus. His comments about the depth of the injury suffered at the hands of James "way back when" makes me hope so. I do not dispute DD has faith in Snape and might even like him. That just makes his outward treatment of the man even more painful. As you point out, Severus seems to have very little of the sense of humor that appreciates gentle teasing (DUH! Wonder Why?) Why then does DD persist in that sort of treatment? Ok, that's my Severus comfort rant for now. Melpomene From artcase at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 03:43:56 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 03:43:56 -0000 Subject: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase with her interviews?? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > (*Snip*) > > Jk Rowling has REPEATEDLY SAID in interviews that Harry will NOT > end up with Hermione, however(I am a ardent R/H, by the way) why > would she say this so explicitly? I think (but deperately pray > against) that she may just be trying to lure everyone into think > this way before WHAM! massive H/H relationship. Okay, far fetched, > but how many times has she said it, a lot, I looked up every > interview(well, someone did it for me and put it on a site). I pray > it isn't another POA situation a la Sirius Black. Call me evil, but they may not be able to have a relationship by the end of the series because one or the other could be dead. Art From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 15 06:51:49 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:51:49 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? In-Reply-To: <11.172854d9.2c6d81ab@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77357 --- IAmLordCassandra wrote: > Casey writes: > > > > is there a reason besides how they make you feel that > > dumbledore hates dementors? i mean does he have bad things in his > > past or does he just not like them? i think there has to be > > something deeper to this... or maybe im just reading too deeply > > into this! > > Cassie: I've always felt it was because of people's (mainly Fudge's) naive trust in them. I'm not sure where (I'm pretty sure it was GoF), but somewhere Dumbledore tells Fudge something along the lines of "They (the Dementors) will not remain loyal to you. Voldemort can give them more, etc...etc.." > > Whatever the reasons...they must be very foul for kind, trusting > Dumbledore to not like them. AUSSIE: I think it is in "Fantastic Creatures and Where to Find Them" that Dementors are said to be, not a natural creature, but a being devised by wizards to be used as a weapon against other wizarding folk. Some of the most dangerous Creatures were developed in this means, so there are a lot of arguements in the WW as to keeping Dementors in a list of Sentient Beings or not. Arguements may say something like, "OK, so you want to keep Dementors. Fine, but let's make them only 2 parts Vampire instead of 7 ... and add a bit of something safer ... like Flubberworms." aussie From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 08:52:22 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 08:52:22 -0000 Subject: Hermoine's unexpected aiding of Fred/George In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77358 Margaret: > > > Does anyone else find it very amusing that Hermione is the reason > > > Fred and George perfect one of their skiving snackboxes??? > > > ajlboston: > > YES, I thought of it at midnight and was planning on posting it > this > > morning! How odd! It is subtle humor when they say that Lee > tipped > > them off to the murtlap essence, after Harry had tipped him off to > > it, after Hermione had given it to Harry. I wonder if she realized > > it... Elle: > One of the major themes of the interactions between Hermione and the > twins in OoP is Hermione's initial lack of respect for the skills and > talents of the twins, a view that seemed to soften a little by the > end of the book. > Hermione has a very rigid view of the world and has trouble accepting > that others genuinely may have different priorities. For Hermione, > the world revolves around books, tests, grades and academic honors. > When Fred and George scoff at Ron for becoming a prefect, she thinks > that they are jealous (Ron knows that they are *not*.) She makes > disparaging remarks about the type of magical knowledge that the > twins have when they are demonstrating the snackboxes in the common > room (saying that they only know "flashy" stuff, not about anything > really useful.) But she is wrong, I think. The twins are *very* > bright and the type of practical magic at which they excel likely > will serve them very well in life. Being the most successful test- > taker in school does not always translate into being the most > successful person in post-school life. (The latter is *not* sour > grapes, I am a Hermione-like test-taker myself! :-> ) > By the end of OoP, Hermione is less dismissive of Fred and George's > magical abilities (and is even somewhat impressed by the vanishing > charm that they use with their joke hats!) She still does not > approve of their early exit from school or their lack of concern > about their exams. I suspect that there may be more development of > these issues in the last two books. Margaret (me) again: I hope so! Fred and George are my personal favorite charcters, I desperately hope them leaving school does not translate into dissappearing from Harry's radar (since his perspective is all we have) I've always thought Hermione was far too dismissive of their magical talent, I've always thought knowing how to actually do what ever it is they're teaching you is more important than proving you can do it (although I too am a Hermione like test taker ;-) so their less than overwhelming success on their O.W.L.s is not nessecarrily a bad thing. Active defense seems like it could be right up their alley, I have no doubt now that they are out of school they will be joining the Order (my hopes for their continued presence are not dashed yet!) maybe they can cross the Headless Hats with the Extendable Ears and start doing surveillence. I reallyreallyreally hope neither of them is the Weasley Rowling supposedly said was going to die (I can't be the only one who hopes it's Percy). ~Margaret P.s. I don't remember what post it was in but someone asked why no one ever says 'George and Fred'. There is defenite merit to the Fred's older theory, but if it is that, there has to be some reason Rowling made Fred older (knowning she'd be saying 'Fred and George' a LOT). I've been thinking about it, and I think it's because it is awkward to follow a word that ends with a vowel sound with one that starts with a vowel sound. If you have poor enunciation, it comes out (in this instance) sounding like 'Georgeanne' which I'm sure no one wants, it's bad enough to be called by a wrong name of the same gender. With F&G you get the nice crisp 'd' sound before 'and'. Just had to get that out of my head ;-) From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 16:59:34 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:59:34 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77359 Fran: > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he is a > LV supporter if not a DE. Around the same passage quoted above, DD > accuses Fudge of "putting too much importance on purity of blood". > Things that bother me about Fudge: > 1) Puts the blame on Sirius for the Potter's, and Wormtails supposed > death without a trial or asking for an explanation. KathyK replies: Crouch Sr. was the one to throw Sirius in Azkaban. Sirius says so himself in GoF. "Oh I know Crouch all right," he said quietly. "He was the one who gave the order for me to be sent ot Azkaban--without a trial." (US paperback, 526) Fudge wasn't even minister until after this. Until Crouch Jr and the Lestranges tortured the Longbottoms, everyone thought Crouch Sr was going to become the next Minister. Fran: 2)The deatheaters in POA KathyK: I don't know what you're referring to with this. Are you talking about the dementors, perhaps? Fran: > 3)The dementors kiss on Barty jr without taking the opportunity to > question him. > 4)The whole parting of the ways. > 5)His continuing reluctance to believe LV is back at the end of OOP. > He didn't exactly go Oh MY God you were right all along DD, he > reacted begrudgingly to it. KathyK: His reluctance is understandable, if not outright explained. Fudge loves his power as Minister of Magic. He's afraid of anything that will upset his position, especially Dumbledore. He grudgingly accepts Voldemort's return at the end of OoP not because he's a DE and doesn't want to admit that his "master" is back, but because he didn't want to admit Dumbledore is right and that he's been not just wrong about Voldemort's return but that he's been actively covering up the evidence Dumbledore and Harry give so he can remain in power. (ugh that's not a pretty sentence, is it?) And in the "Parting of the Ways" I saw Fudge's refusal to entertain Voldemort's return as great fear of Voldemort and of what it could do to his position. The image that always sticks with me from that scene is (US paperback, 709): He rocked backward and forward on his small feet for a moment and spun his bowler hat in his hands. Finally, he said, with a hint of a plea in his voice, "He can't be back, Dumbledore, he just can't be..." To me he doesn't seem like a DE or Voldemort supporter, just a small man afraid to face the truth. Fran: > 6)He thinks so highly of Lucious Malfoy. Yes I know Lucious gives > money but giving money isnt that big a deal for someone who has > alot. > I realize that this is out there but I just dont believe he is that > naive. I also believe Ludo Bagman is a DE.....Wimbourn Wasp...Wasp > buzzing around in GOF and OOP..... > Fran KathyK: I don't think Fudge is naive, either. He's in love with his own power. He believes in the purity of blood. These things do not a Death Eater make, IMO. He's stupid for not believing Dumbledore, for placing himself above the safety of the WW, and for continuing to hold onto the notion of purity of blood. But he's not a Voldemort supporter. He's also not the only one unwilling to believe that Voldemort returned without proof beyond Dumbledore's word. Dumbledore's word probably should be enough, but not for people who want to believe their world is still safe and Voldemort-free. KathyK (who does not believe Fudge and Umbridge are Death Eaters, no matter how evil they act) From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 15 13:14:40 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 13:14:40 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sydney" wrote: > > That's not even my main problem with the undead thing. It's the > > aging. We've now seen Snape as child, as a teenager, aging > perfectly > > normally. > > It's not a great > > explanation, but I've been trying to think of some other > Snape/Vampire > > connection and that's the best I could come up with. > > > > Sydney > > Exactly! What is with the parents? > If Snape is a vampire, he's the crappiest one in literary history. > > Allyson Ok, let me put another thought into your head. What if the pensieve thing of Bertha Jorkins where she said "I saw him kissing her..." was actually Snape being bitten by a female vampire? There are female vampires aren't there? and he may have been grown at the time. Just fuel to the fire.... Susan From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 14:44:47 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:44:47 -0000 Subject: Weasley Christian names In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Can't find a meaning for Bilius. A bit off the point, but in Terry > Pratchett's Hogfather, Bilious is the OhGod of Hangovers.Cheers It isn't a name, but it is a word. Bilious is derived from "bile," and indicates being bile-like, over-producing bile, being sickly and such. One additional meaning, when applied to a person, is that a bilious person is ill-humored, or peevish. From rlai1977 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 15:05:31 2003 From: rlai1977 at yahoo.com (RP) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:05:31 -0000 Subject: MALFOY and HARRY In-Reply-To: <91.31b9e397.2c6e2cb4@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77362 Sherrie said: > JKR has said that harry & Draco will not become friends. > > Sherrie Could I ask when did JKR say that and what were her exact words? Unless you were referring to the interview in which she said that the speculation of Harry and Draco become allies and fight Voldermort together was a rumour.. RP From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 16:22:01 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:22:01 -0000 Subject: Harry Quidditch Champ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77363 Severus "I wanna play quidditch" Snape wrote : And it's not like Harry needs to make a serious income > since he seems to be quite affluent. If he inheirets Sirius' money, > (which must be large sum, since he bought a Firebolt for Harry) He > may be as affluent as the Malfoys. Even more if you consider that the Blacks and the Malfoys are very close (in every sense of the term) : the Blacks must have been as wealthy as the Malfoys. Besides, Sirius (once) being the last Black alive had already inherited the whole fortune of his family. No doubt Harry will inherit what remains and become one of the most well-off wizard of the WW. AAm. From pisola6363 at netzero.com Fri Aug 15 16:51:20 2003 From: pisola6363 at netzero.com (occam6363) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:51:20 -0000 Subject: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77364 me, Occam: > I'm re-reading CoS. Harry gets a toothpick for Xmas from the > Dursley's with a note asking him to see if he can stay at Hogwarts > for the summer holidays, too > What the h*** is Petunia thinking? Is this a FLINT? Since OoP we know > that Petunia knows Harry has to come home to keep LV off his back, > and we also know that Petunia has completely (if grudingly) accepted > this burden. Are we to assume she had nothing to do with the note, > that it was from Vernon Dursley and not "the Dursleys?" sebfish5: Harry would be just as safe as Hogwarts as long as Albus Dumbledore is there, but obviously, Dumbledore wants his own holiday, but you can't blame Petunia and the Dursleys for trying. me, Occam: Nope, can't blame her, but doesn't Harry have to be there once a year to preserve the protection with Petunia? If she succeeded in getting Harry to stay at Hogwarts for the summer, wouldn't that mean that AD became HP's only safe haven, and that the Petunia protection would be lost forever? -- Occam From rredordead at aol.com Fri Aug 15 17:16:14 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:16:14 -0000 Subject: Hermione the MoM? wasRe: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: <64516231823.20030814112023@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77365 > Hi, > > Thursday, August 14, 2003, 10:38:48 AM, James wrote: > > > I think Hermione would make a great MoM, > > Maybe when she's older and has learned to not offend people > as much . > > Right now she'd bulldozer along, without taking the opinions > of her charges into account. > > How do you become the MoM, anyhow. Is s/he elected? > > I just can't quite see Hermione be the MoM for long. > > She doesn't seem to be the politician's type, so far, and > smartness alone doesn't keep you in the office long, or > get you there in the first place... > Best regards, > Susanne I had origionaly posted my idea of Hermione becoming the MOM one day. I see her uniting all the magical creatures together in peace and forging a bridge between the WW world and the Muggle world. Just my silly Hermione fantasy. Mandy. From pisola6363 at netzero.com Fri Aug 15 17:11:40 2003 From: pisola6363 at netzero.com (occam6363) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:11:40 -0000 Subject: Harry Quidditch Champ! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77366 tallulah: > Has anybody considered that apart from Harry becoming an auror or > DADA teacher he could play Quidditch proffessionally? Yes, absolutely I've thought of this! I love the thought of Harry having a non-serious life after Hogwarts. -- Occam From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 17:17:05 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 10:17:05 -0700 Subject: Legislation Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77367 How does legislation work in the WW? Is the Wizengamot responsible not only for trials but for the passing of laws? Any insights into the British system would be welcome as well. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 17:17:29 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:17:29 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he is a > LV supporter if not a DE. Me: Dumbledore doesn't seem to think so. maneelyfh: >Around the same passage quoted above, DD > accuses Fudge of "putting too much importance on purity of blood". Me: So do a lot of people, but that doesn't make them death eaters. Even the Black family, according to Sirius, didn't join Voldemort when they found out what he was willing to do to get power. Things that bother me about Fudge: > 1) Puts the blame on Sirius for the Potter's, and Wormtails supposed > death without a trial or asking for an explanation. Me: Fudge didn't do that...he had Percy's job when that happened (see PoA, the scene in the Three Broomsticks where Harry finds out what Black supposedly did.) On the other points, I agree that Fudge is a terrible person. I don't think he's just naive, I think he's power hungry and refuses to wake up to reality. But I really don't think he's a death eater. James Redmont From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 17:27:06 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:27:06 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > AUSSIE: I think it is in "Fantastic Creatures and Where to Find Them" > that Dementors are said to be, not a natural creature, but a being > devised by wizards to be used as a weapon against other wizarding > folk. Some of the most dangerous Creatures were developed in this > means, so there are a lot of arguements in the WW as to keeping > Dementors in a list of Sentient Beings or not. > Arguements may say something like, "OK, so you want to keep > Dementors. Fine, but let's make them only 2 parts Vampire instead of > 7 ... and add a bit of something safer ... like Flubberworms." > > aussie Me: Just curious, where does it say that in FB? I just looked up "Dementors", though I was pretty sure it wasn't listed in the alphabetical list of beasts, and sure enough it's not there. Sounds like something that might be in some of the introductions, since it's about illegal breeding. Can you point this out to me? James Redmont From rredordead at aol.com Fri Aug 15 17:29:57 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:29:57 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77370 > > HERE HERE AND HIP HORAY, I AGREE WITH REBECCA. I DON'T SEE WHY > >RON WOULD BE UPSET IF HERMIONE WAS M.O.M., GOODNESS, I THINK THAT RON WOULD BE SHOCKED IF SHE WASN'T M.O.M. Possibly because Ron has pretty much been overshadowed by either his friends or brothers for most of his life. If Hermione becomes Minister of Magic it won't do any wonders for his self-esteem. > > Why can't Hermione > > have a husband that is not as powerful, or famous? The question is can Ron have a wife that continues to overshadow him and who would have more concern for the welfare of the wizard world than for her husband? Thank-you whoever you are! I in no way meant to suggest that it is wrong, inappropriate or indeed offensive for a man to stay at home and support a woman! I merely meant that Ronald Weasly couldn't do it. But there are plenty more fish in the sea and Hermione is smart enough to find a good man who will support her huge ambitions. Mandy From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 15 17:28:46 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:28:46 -0000 Subject: Legislation and Regulation (Was: Re: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher) In-Reply-To: <3F3C5DA8.1070105@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77371 > > Golly: English Common law requires that the justices be a self- administered body distinguished from the legislative and the executive arms of government. Fudge may repesent the excutive, Arthur's job may represent the legislative since we know he writes laws even if he doesn't pass them. I get the feeling bureaucrats like Arthur write the laws, Fudge's team looks them over and they are sent directly > to the Queen for official signing. TM Sommers: > > The Queen has nothing to do with wizarding law. The decrees > emanating > > from the Ministry were signed by Fudge, not the Queen. And note > that > > they were decrees, not laws passed by a legislature. GOLLY: > Not necessarily. They are not called laws. They are decrees... Decrees may be nothing more than regulation... They are not stated to be bills or laws. Her majesty's executive has the power to institute regulations without going through the parlimentary process. Essentially there are laws on the books that gives the executive such power to create such enforcable regulations. Many have a problem when the executive uses this power to bypass the ordinary legislative system. There is always an outcry if the regulations are considered to be too opressive or important not to be introduced as law in the House. TM Sommers: It is quite clear from the books that the MoM is not connected at all with the rest of English government. The reports in the Prophet indicated that some people were shocked that Fudge had told the PM of Sirius's escape. Obviously, the PM is aware of the existence of the wizarding world, but that must be a very closely held secret-- the 30-year rule does not apply. Go back as far as you like and you won't find a single reference to it in the PRO. If he was aware of it, then they have to be connected someway. GOLLY: It says only that the PM is not intimately involved in the going ons in the WW. It does not mean that they are not connected. The very fact that on an important matter the MoM felt the need to connect up with PM is important in my book. They at least work together on some things. It may merely be an autonomous form of self government. Hardly unheard of in the Commonwealth. In fact, Canada is flirting with such ideas with Quebec. To make a parallel... Quebec has power over many issues that are generally of federal jurisdiction like immigration. The MOM may be a more extreme version of that. Golly From n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 16:05:00 2003 From: n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com (n_longbottom01) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:05:00 -0000 Subject: Metamorphmagus!Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77372 > > Very interesting. I think maybe he would need to be trained up a > bit before he could do it, but as to whether or not he *is* a meta, > why not? He grew the hair back when he *really* wanted to. And > even though he tries to hide his scar sometimes, he's admitted it's > the only part of his appearance he likes. And who knows, he might > have gotten a bit of perverse pleasure by having his hair so > crazy...Vernon *hated* it! > > James Redmont Now Me: I also think the possiblity of a connection between Tonks abilities and the things we have been told about Harry's hair is interesting. I tip my hat to those of you who first made the connection. Something at least similar, if not exactly the same as, Tonks Metamorphmagus magic did occur when Harry regrew his hair over night. I like the hint that Harry could possibly have some Metamorphmagus powers that he is unaware of, but I don't think I want it to go any further than that as a potential plot point. I can't exactly put my finger on why, but I think this power to change his appearance at will would make Harry harder for me as the reader to relate to. I like Tonks. I'm not sure how big of a role she and her abilities will play in the coming books, but I do think some future plot point was set up by her inclusion in book 5. Maybe Tonks will show up in disguise with some role at Hogwarts? From rredordead at aol.com Fri Aug 15 17:48:26 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:48:26 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > > This is where you picked me up to join your theory. I thought the > scene was meaningful and packed with things I wasn't catching onto, > and this could be part of the mystery. > > > > There's *clearly* something more going on with Neville, that's > accepted. But Gran and his uncle are likely part of his mystery, > too. The bubblegum wrapper makes me really wonder. There has to be a > reason Neville's mom handed it to him -- when I get my copy of OoP > back, I'm going to check it out. :) I wish I had it with me now. > > > > What could bubblegum symbolize? Hasn't she given him a lot of them > already? Do the wrappers say anything on them? Have we ever heard of > bubblegum wrappers before in the series? Could bubblegum be a device > to save the world from LV? ;) > > > > Brief Chronicles > > Me: > > I just read through the whole hospital part, and when they get in > the queue to find out where Mr. Weasley's room is, (p. 486 U.S. > version)...well let me quote: > > A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to > the front of the queue now. > "I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed. > "Ward forty-nine, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time," said the > witch dismissively. "He's completely addled, you know, still thinks > he's a teapot....Next!" > > Could this be Great Uncle Algie, delivering the devil's snare?? > > James Redmont Wow. I hadn't see this coming at all! I was very suspicious of the gum wrappers though. So you think that perhaps Gran and Great Uncle Algie are keeping Neville's parents insane! Are they working of LV? But why? I can't think of a good enough reason. Help me out please. Could it be perhaps Gran and Great Uncle Algie are just trying to keep Neville out of the fight, keep him safe? Mandy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 17:55:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:55:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jedi_hermione" wrote: > > JKR said this at Quickquotes > > > > ... outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his > glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his > vulnerability?" " > > > > Hmm. I'll have to think about what that could mean. > > > > Joj > > ... Or perhaps the lenses can be used to channel a spell directly > into his eyes. ...edited... > > *~Aeryn~* bboy_mn: Kind of makes you go 'hummmm...'. Suddenly I see Harry spending the entire books 7 wearing a pair of chrome/mirror finish clip-on sunglasses. Well, we can associate glasses with eye, and the association with eyes has always been to Harry having his mother's eyes, and for some reason, we have always associated that with a strength or perhaps a tool/weapon. The above could now imply that having Lily's eyes is not a strength but a weakness. But then who knows. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 15 18:05:40 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:05:40 -0000 Subject: Legislation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > How does legislation work in the WW? Is the Wizengamot responsible not only for trials but for the passing of laws? Any insights into the British system would be welcome as well. > > -Dan Unfortunately, English Law is in a state of flux at the moment, with the most anti-libertarian government since Charles I. Attempts are being made to restrict trial by jury, presumption of innocence has been abolished in certain cases, so that defendants have to prove a negative (i.e. they must prove they didn't do it, instead of the Crown proving guilt). If the accused stays mute, the inference can be made that they have something to hide, searches are made without warrants, goods and chattels seized. Makes you wonder what happened to Magna Carta. I think that they've been taking lessons from Barty Crouch Snr. Check back in a few years, to see if we have survived this onslaught on Civil Liberties. Kneasy From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 18:06:19 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:06:19 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77376 Mandy: Wow. I hadn't see this coming at all! I was very suspicious of the gum wrappers though. So you think that perhaps Gran and Great Uncle Algie are keeping Neville's parents insane! Are they working of LV? But why? I can't think of a good enough reason. Help me out please. Could it be perhaps Gran and Great Uncle Algie are just trying to keep Neville out of the fight, keep him safe? Dan: I think you're right--Remember what Sirius said! To paraphrase: the world is not divided into good guys and Death Eaters. I do think that Umbridge, Fudge, and probably Gran/Algie all fall into this grey area, where people have their own agendas and motives. Perhaps they are "evil" but that does not mean at all that they are supporters of Voldemort. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 18:07:06 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:07:06 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > > feetmadeofclay wrote: > > > > English Common law requires that the justices be a self- > administered > > > body distinguished from the legislative and the executive arms > of > > > government. Fudge may repesent the excutive, Arthur's job may > > > represent the legislative since we know he writes laws even if > he > > > doesn't pass them. I get the feeling bureaucrats like Arthur > write > > > the laws, Fudge's team looks them over and they are sent > directly to > > > the Queen for official signing. > > "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > > The Queen has nothing to do with wizarding law. The decrees > emanating > > from the Ministry were signed by Fudge, not the Queen. > > Me: > > Why is everybody talking about the Queen? Who cares about her? Geoff: I do, as a matter of fact. I'd sononer have her as head of state that that clot at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue or the Rt.Hon.Member for Sedgfield. James: > She doesn't have any power... Geoff: Perhaps, but she is the one who actually signs the Acts of Parliament. James: > I'd be more concerned with how the Prime > Minister relates to all this (which T.M. Sommers did), if you wanted > to related it to the British Ministry at all! I know the PM knows > about the WW, Geoff: I think he lives in it for most of the time :-) From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 18:09:48 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:09:48 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77378 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Mandy: > Wow. I hadn't see this coming at all! I was very suspicious of the > gum wrappers though. > > So you think that perhaps Gran and Great Uncle Algie are keeping > Neville's parents insane! > Are they working of LV? > But why? I can't think of a good enough reason. > Help me out please. > > Could it be perhaps Gran and Great Uncle Algie are just trying to > keep Neville out of the fight, keep him safe? > > Dan: > I think you're right--Remember what Sirius said! To paraphrase: the world is not divided into good guys and Death Eaters. I do think that Umbridge, Fudge, and probably Gran/Algie all fall into this grey area, where people have their own agendas and motives. Perhaps they are "evil" but that does not mean at all that they are supporters of Voldemort. > Has anyone thought that instead of trying to force magic out of neville Good Ole' Uncle Aglie was trying to kill neville? Garrett From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 18:16:40 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:16:40 -0000 Subject: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77379 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" > wrote: > > > But the Lestranges and Crouch Jr didn't torture the Longbottoms > until > > after Voldemort tried to kill Harry and lost all his powers. They > > tortured the Longbottoms for information on the whereabouts of > > Voldemort. In GoF, Dumbledore (I think) mentions that the > incident > > was so horrific because it occurred after things were settling > down > > from the war. > > > > KathyK > > James: > > Too right. Am I the only one who's sick of telling people things > like this? I think the admins should start making a list of facts > people keep screwing up and list them in the database somewhere. > For instance: > > Percy *was* one of the bodies Mrs. Weasley saw with the boggart. > Narcissa's maiden name *was* Black. > Mundungus and Crookshanks have been in the same room at the same > time! > Droobles Best Blowing Gum is called such in the AMERICAN BOOKS as > well as the U.K. edition. See the first book (which apparently, no > one feels they have to read anymore since it's made into a movie!) > And of course the Lestranges tortured Frank and Alice *after* Harry > got rid of Voldemort. > > James Redmont, who feels that getting the facts straight will allow > these discussions to be more enjoyable! Bear in mind that we all feel the same way at times. I have answered queries on several occasions lately only to find someone asking the same thing a day or so later. We just have to remember that there are a huge number of posts coming in; I don't think I've been in a Usenet group or a Yahoo! group with such a heavy post before. Even if, as I do, you concentrate on certain threads, you find that a reply sometimes slips through your fingers and you miss out on it. Again, its no good getting steamed up when perhaps another writer who does not possess your good memory for where a quote or event occurs, which fortunately I think I share with you, and making the atmosphere prickly. We already have an Umbridge around to take umbrage! :-) Geoff From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 18:19:08 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 11:19:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77380 Garrett: Has anyone thought that instead of trying to force magic out of neville Good Ole' Uncle Aglie was trying to kill neville? Dan: Oh dearie me! Perhaps! That would make sense... "I was trying to get him to do some magic" would be a LIKELY STORY when Neville's slightly flatter and *deader* than usual. Then again, it could have been what he was trying to do and he could be Ever So Good. Dagnabbit. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 15 18:20:40 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:20:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hagrid and Thestrals References: <1060888369.11703.27678.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004401c36359$ef2319c0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 77381 Geoff >Two possibilities. In GOF, Hagrid tells Harry that his father died >during Hagrid's second year at Hogwarts. Did he see his father after >his death? > >Additionally, in POA when Harry overheards the conversation between >McGonagall/Fudge/Flitwick/Hagrid in the Thre Broomsticks ("The >MArauder's Map" p.153), Hagrid says that he pulled Harry from the >ruins of the Potter house after Voldemort's attack just after Lily >and James were killed. Does this imply that he must have seen their >bodies? There's another reference in POA, when Hagrid is talking about his experiences in Azkaban, he mentions that one of the worst times in his life was his father's death. Sounds like a strong possibility that that was the death that Rubeus saw - I think the Thestral ability means that you have to have seen someone _die_ rather than someone _dead_ which is what he would have seen at Godric's Hollow Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 15 18:25:20 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:25:20 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > wrote: > > > feetmadeofclay wrote: > > > > Why is everybody talking about the Queen? Who cares about her? > > Geoff: > I do, as a matter of fact. I'd sononer have her as head of state that > that clot at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue or the Rt.Hon.Member for > Sedgfield. > > James: > > She doesn't have any power... > > Geoff: > Perhaps, but she is the one who actually signs the Acts of Parliament. > > James: > > I'd be more concerned with how the Prime > > Minister relates to all this (which T.M. Sommers did), if you > wanted > > to related it to the British Ministry at all! I know the PM knows > > about the WW, > > > Geoff: > I think he lives in it for most of the time :-) Nice one. The Queen does matter. The Armed Forces, the Police and the Judicuary all swear personal oaths of loyalty to the Queen, not to Parliament, even though that's who pays their salaries. If the Queen ( upon advice) refused to sign a piece of legislation, it could not be passed into law. There would be a constitutional crisis. Parliament *could* depose the Queen, or at least force an abdication in these circumstances, but it would get very messy, especially if some of the above groups decided to take their oaths seriously. Unfortunately for A. Blair Esq., the post of Prime Minister does not figure in the English Constitution. It is a courtesy title for the leader of the party forming the government. He is supposed to derive his power and authority through Parliament and has no other constitutional powers. I don't think he's happy with this. Kneasy From artcase at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 03:42:12 2003 From: artcase at yahoo.com (artcase) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 03:42:12 -0000 Subject: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77383 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "occam6363" > wrote: > > I'm re-reading CoS. Harry gets a toothpick for Xmas from the > > Dursley's with a note asking him to see if he can stay at Hogwarts (*snip*)> > -- Occam > > Harry would be just as safe as Hogwarts as long as Albus Dumbledore > is there, but obviously, Dumbledore wants his own holiday, but you > can't blame Petunia and the Dursleys for trying. Another reason could be that the last student to stay at Hogwarts over summer vacation was.... Tom M. Riddle Perhaps Dumbledore is keeping Harry away during summer vacation because he does not want him to follow too closely in LV's footsteps. Art From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 18:27:43 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:27:43 -0000 Subject: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77384 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Possibly because Ron has pretty much been overshadowed by either his > friends or brothers for most of his life. If Hermione becomes > Minister of Magic it won't do any wonders for his self-esteem. Ron would like to be overshadowed less, but it's not *that* imortant to him. If it was, he wouldn't be best friends with Harry. He'd be best friends with someone like Neville. If if doesn't matter enought to keep their relationship from working why would to matter enough to keep a romatic relationship with Herminone from working? As far as what would be good for Ron's self-esteem, the best thing he could do would be to quit measuring himeself agasinst other people. (Easier said than done, I know.) bibphile From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 18:29:57 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:29:57 -0000 Subject: Fudge Naive or DE? (was "is there a reason?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77385 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Fran wrote: > > > > > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he > is > > a > > > LV supporter if not a DE. > > > "Kelly" wrote: > > > You have some very good points. I think that there is a chance, > > albeit slim, that Fudge may be a DE after all. Personally, I think > > he is representative of a bureaucratic politician who > > prefers "business as usual" and will avoid "rocking the boat" at > all > > costs. I also get the feeling that he is almost completely unable > to > > make decisions on his own. Instead, it appears that he takes other > > peoples solutions and acts on them. > > The most obvious examples of Fudge's incompetence are in OoTP. He > > blindly passes the "Educational Decree"s seemingly based on > > Umbridge's recommendations. His relationship with Malfoy seems to > be > > a surrogate for his lost relationship with Dumbledore (i.e. he > needs > > a person to help him make decisions). > > > Laura: > > I would again suggest the relevance of the "banality of evil" > theory. Most of us are neither outstandingly evil nor outstandingly > good, it seems to me. We do our best and try to make the right > decisions, and we're vulnerable to lots of different kinds of > pressures that can allow us to convince ourselves that "right" > means "what's best for me". That's how evil can take power-by > putting people in a position to, as DD put it, choose between what is > right and what is easy, and giving them reasons to choose the > latter. LV and those real-life villains with whom we are all too > familiar don't need everyone to be a party member, as it were. They > just need people to go along and not fight back. That's Fudge's > sin. It appears from a couple of his interactions with DD (for > instance, at the end of GoF when he says "[Voldemort] can't be back, > Dumbledore, he just can't be" (GoF p 709 US) that he knows in his > heart what's going on, but to avoid controversy that might cost him > his job, he covers it up. Yes, Fudge has that stupid pure-blood > thing, but that doesn't make him a DE, just a bigot. > > I'd also suggest that Fudge isn't looking to Lucius so much as a > replacement for DD as for someone who will suck up to him and support > his wretched decisions. (An occasional pocketful of galleons never > hurts either.) Malfoy may be manipulating Fudge, which would be > pretty easy to do, but I think Fudge likes the idea of this old- > family pure-blood bigshot toadying to him. Me: There is an old saying which I am sure many of you have heard: "For evil to triumph, good men only have to do nothing." or words to that effect. I distrust Fudge but he is ,as someone said, a typical politician who looks over his shoulder to see if his position is safe and wants a quiet life - a latter day Neville Chamberlain perhaps? From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 15 18:33:59 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:33:59 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77386 > > > > > > Has anyone thought that instead of trying to force magic out of > neville Good Ole' Uncle Aglie was trying to kill neville? > Garrett Aha! This puts Trevor in a whole new light! He was a present from Uncle Algie, remember. And therefore suspect. I sense that some of the old posters are awakening to revive the old theories argued over in the long ago. (See Magical Posts for lots of fun.) Kneasy From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 15 05:53:23 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:53:23 -0000 Subject: Death clues In-Reply-To: <20030815040554.17455.qmail@web14907.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77387 Christian Miles wrote: > i found a very interesting death clue: > " In St. Mungo's, when they are going to visit Mr. Weasley- 'They > climbed a flight of stairs and entered the "Creature-Induced > Injuries" corridor, where the second door on the right bore the > words 'DANGEROUS' DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES.' If you put > these words on a sign, they would read > > Creature-Induced Injuries > Dangerous > Dai Llewellyn Ward > Serious Bites > > Take the first word of each of these and what do you get get? > Creature Dangeous Dai Serious? No - Kreacher dangerous, Die Sirius" > very interesting. wow. > now we know why it took JK 3 years to complete OotP!!! > has anyone found any other clues to future events? > :-) The US book has Umbridge's Decree's and other signs in picture form, while here in Australia, the words are just printed like other parts of the book. So was the "Dai Llewellyn" in picture form (I still wouldn't have picked it even if it was)? Maybe JKR has spoken to a few aussies. "Day" and "Dai" always sounds like "Die" with our accent ... lol aussie / Norbert's Mummy From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 15 18:37:42 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:37:42 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Umbridge's great success References: <1060888369.11703.27678.m20@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004801c3635c$50751fa0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 77388 Golly: >The wizarding world apparently does not adhere to English common >law. The thought of condeming a person to death without offering >even any semblence of a trial is very much against the spirit of the >common law. I think you are quite right on this. The WW form of justice seems not to be derived from any of the more common systems around in our world, be it English common law, Roman law, Celtic law, etc, etc. It's a pretty rough system of justice too, arbitrary, without the kinds of concepts of rights that we would recognise as being "natural justice". I wonder if it's something which the WW bureaucracy has evolved over the years as its judicial arm. It seems to suit the kind of bureaucratic methodology which underpins WW civil society - it's a tribunal and an inquisitorial system rather than an adversarial one - there seems to be no concept of prosecution and defence, it's up to the tribunal to make up its own mind about the way that the trial should be conducted and the guilt or otherwise of the defendant. There are some rights, but it's not clear what they are or whether their infringement would affect the validity of the verdict. >English Common law requires that the justices be a self-administered >body distinguished from the legislative and the executive arms of >government. Fudge may repesent the excutive, Arthur's job may >represent the legislative since we know he writes laws even if he >doesn't pass them. I get the feeling bureaucrats like Arthur write >the laws, Fudge's team looks them over and they are sent directly to >the Queen for official signing. I don't think there is any support in canon for there being a WW queen. [slipping into fanficcy mode for a second] "Muggles have a queen", said Voldemort, "They are like ants, and wasps, and other crawling things." >The problem here is that we've never got a clear picture of how the >WW is integrated into the english parlimentary system. It is clear That's because it's highly unlikely that it is! Given that the WW has spent the last 300 years doing its level best to obscure any evidence that it exists, letting muggle politicians meddle sounds like the last thing they would do. >that Fudge is Her Majesty's Minister of Magic. But ordinarily that >requires that Fudge would be elected to the house and then selected >by the Prime Minister to sit in that position. It could be that I think it is precisely that requirement that means that Fudge is nothing to do with the muggle government. He is the pinnacle of the bureaucracy. The WW understands _no_ "separation of powers" between executive, legislature, and judiciary - they are all part of the same thing. Percy wanted to be Minister of Magic so he joined the MoM as a bureaucrat - why? because that's the beginning of the route to the top. >oversee cases that are appealed to that House. One wonders if Harry >could have taken his case to any other court for an appeal if he had >lost. It doesn't sound like it. It's more probable that there are various different types of tribunal, depending on the type of case being heard (Harry's tribunal was different from Buckbeak's, for example) >I found Rowling's Wizarding legal system to be bit of a straw man. I'd have to disagree on that one. Once you decide (as JKR has) that the WW is a bureaucracy, then that has all sorts of implications for justice, lawmaking, and politics generally - I think she's drawn out those implications very effectively. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 15 05:59:54 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 05:59:54 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77389 > --- "holly_phoenix_11" wrote: > To Dumbledore, Tom Riddle is just Tom. Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > > This actually goes back to my original observation, that Dumbledore > said he was trying "to get people to call LV by his "proper name: > Voldemort." Why make such a point of saying > Voldemort was his "proper name" in the beginning? Dmbledore said that in the very 1st book. It would have given away the secret of the diary in CoS if he used Riddle's real name. aussie From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 18:40:36 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:40:36 -0000 Subject: Simple acronym for theory (was: Myrtle an Evans? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77390 MYRTLE: Maybe You're Related To Lily Evans I wrote: > Ok, maybe she has already served her purpose and there really is > nothing more to her. But, what if there is more? A last name has > not been given yet (has it?) so could Moaning Myrtle be an Evans? > (Please correct me if I'm wrong and her last name has in fact been > mentioned.) My crude timeline makes this possible, BUT ONLY IF > Myrtle was a FIRST YEAR when she died in 1942-43. This would mean > she was born in 1931. I feel that Petunia is 10 years older than > Lily, so Myrtle could have been 10 or more years older than Petunia. > It could hold true that the Evanses did not have another child until > after the first one, Myrtle, died. Yet, this one did not receive a > letter from Hogwarts. The youngest one, however, did. Could they > have been so proud to have a witch in the family because the first > one died? (Although, I don't know if you would be so happy as to send > you child to the same school where another one died years before.) > > Am I making any sense? What do you all think? There are a lot > of 'flower' theories out there. People are also trying to connect > Myrtle to the Blacks. I thought of connecting her to the Potters > (dark hair and glasses) but she was muggle-born, as was Lily. > > Marci From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 15 06:32:30 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 06:32:30 -0000 Subject: Alohamora In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77391 --- "daelyn_duprer" wrote: (editted by aussie) > My question is this - when does Alohamora work, and when doesn't > it? In the dept of mysteries, I seem to remember (Hermione) uses the Collecorpus spell to seal a door, but the DE's break through > with Alohamora. The heroes then retreat into the room with many > doors, which they begin sealing with the same spell, one door > at a time. The DE's, rather than using Alohamora to open the > doors, race all they way around until they beat the spellcasters > to an unlocked entrance. Why didn't they take the easy way in? Or > is Alohamora such an obsolete spell that only Hermione and an > apparantly well-read DE remember it? Any explanations would help, > this is a nitpicky thing that is driving me nuts. Umm .. dunno, but if it is any use, 12 DE went down to 5. The one that used Alohomora on the Colloportus spell (I had to look up the spelling) was a victim of a "Stupify spell" and didn't make it to the Brain Room. If Alohomora was such common knowledge, locks would be obsolete in Hogwarts .. lol. aussie From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 18:41:54 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:41:54 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: > Has anyone thought that instead of trying to force magic out of > neville Good Ole' Uncle Aglie was trying to kill neville? > Garrett Me: Yes! I posted just that in my original post (Mimbulus Mimbletonia), and I'd mentioned it before. Neville said that Great Uncle Algie not only tried to throw him out the window (the time Neville bounced down the hill), but he also nearly drowned him before that. Plus the fact that the way that the man is described who asks to see Bode fits the bill...he is old and has a hearing trumpet! (he'd have to be very old, wouldn't he?) Plus, what do you think about this...maybe Uncle Algie is the one who always gives Alice gum when he comes to see her, and that's why Alice keeps giving them to Neville...for instance, the day Harry's there, maybe she's trying to tell him that Algie was just there and gave the Devil's Snare to Bode. Or maybe if Algie is putting something in the gum, she's trying to tell him that... I'd like to read that Harry gets closer to Neville and begins to notice something odd...something that would lead him to realize something's going on with Gran and Algie. (And now I'm going to do something I don't normally do...I usually like to pinpoint my facts *before* speculating, but isn't there a known deatheater who has a name that could be shortened to Algie? If anyone can find it, please post it.) James "Evil!Gran/Algie" Redmont From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 15 18:50:26 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:50:26 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > > (And now I'm going to do something I don't normally do...I usually > like to pinpoint my facts *before* speculating, but isn't there a > known deatheater who has a name that could be shortened to Algie? > If anyone can find it, please post it.) > > James "Evil!Gran/Algie" Redmont You probably think of Algernon Rookwood. See message 77087 Marika From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Fri Aug 15 18:51:03 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:51:03 +0200 Subject: Ron's academic achivements in book 5 Message-ID: <3F3D2B97.3020001@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 77394 Hello, During 3rd reread of OotP, I focused mainly on Ron & Hermione interactions (which I'll try to deeper describe in another post coming real soon now), but accidentally I find out, that I had collected some interesting quotes regarding Ron's academic achievements during 5th year. So I decided to post those here. Odd thing is, that every time Ron is making some mistake during lessons it is accompanied by similar error made by Harry (all quotes from Bloomsbery edition): See those 2 different charms lesson: >>'- He'd probably be back in Azkaban this morning.' He [Harry] waved his wand without really concentrating; his bullfrog swelled like a green balloon and emitted a high-pitched whistle. [...]said Ron. 'He's not stupid, he knows she nearly got him. Silencio.' The large and ugly raven in front of him let out a derisive caw. 'Silencio. SILENCIO!' The raven cawed more loudly.<< And the second: >>He and Ron both tapped the teacups they were supposed to be charming with their wands. Harry's spouted four very short legs that could not reach the desk and wriggled pointlessly in midair. Ron's grew four very thin spindly legs that hoisted the cup off the desk with great difficulty, trembled for a few seconds, then folded, causing the cup to crack into two.<< They also didn't do any good during Transfiguration: >>By the end of a double period neither he nor Ron had managed to vanish the snails on which they were practicing, though Ron said hopefully he thought his looked a bit paler.<< The same is still true during OWLs. The only time we hear about Ron's results is when Harry was not happy about his exam: Charms exam: >>His is Levitation Charm was certainly much better than Malfoy's had been, though he wished he had not mixed up the incantations for Colour Change and Growth Charms, so that the rat he was supposed to be turning orange swelled shockingly and was the size of a badger before Harry could rectify his mistake.[...] He could tell Ron, though; Ron had caused a dinner plate to mutate into a large mushroom and had no idea how it had happened.<< and Divination: >>Even by Harry's low standards in Divination, the exam went very badly.[...] He [Ron] had just made Harry feel rather better by telling him how he had told the examiner in detail about the ugly man with a wart on his nose in his crystal ball, only to look up and realise he had been describing his examiner's reflection.<< There are some places in the book, when Ron actually did something (presumably) better than Harry. He received better grade for Moonstone essay: >>[...]when they arrived for double Potions, where Harry's moonstone essay was handed back to him with a large, spiky black 'D' scrawled in an upper corner.[...]'I got a "P",' said Ron, ladling soup into his bowl.<< Ron also made some progress in Vanishing spell: >>'Well, it's a start,' said Ron, holding up a long wriggling mouse-tail and dropping it back into the box Lavender was passing around.<< -- here he almost mastered vanishing mammals during one lesson. So it seems, that in the 5th book Ron made some progress -- he is no more as bad in magic as he was before -- I believe he is as good as Harry at least in Charms and Transfiguration. Therefore I respectfully submit notion of Ron being worse than Harry in classes is no longer valid. Regards, -- Pshemekan From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 18:56:17 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:56:17 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77395 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > Nice one. > The Queen does matter. > The Armed Forces, the Police and the Judicuary all swear personal > oaths of loyalty to the Queen, not to Parliament, even though that's > who pays their salaries. If the Queen ( upon advice) refused to sign > a piece of legislation, it could not be passed into law. There would > be a constitutional crisis. Parliament *could* depose the Queen, or > at least force an abdication in these circumstances, but it would > get very messy, especially if some of the above groups decided to > take their oaths seriously. > > Unfortunately for A. Blair Esq., the post of Prime Minister does > not figure in the English Constitution. It is a courtesy title for the > leader of the party forming the government. He is supposed to > derive his power and authority through Parliament and has no > other constitutional powers. I don't think he's happy with this. > > Kneasy Me: So by saying the Queen *does* matter (in the Potterverse), you mean one of two things: 1)The WW is under the Queen (am I the only one who thinks this is doubtful?) or... 2)You believe the Queen, rather than the PM (which is supported in canon), would be involved in matters such as securing the secrecy of the WW? (Here's the OT part, which you guys seem to be enjoying. If having a Queen could potentially cause so much instability, isn't Tony Blair quite right to feel unhappy about the situation? JMHO ) James "thank buddha for democracy" Redmont From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Sat Aug 16 12:22:55 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:22:55 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Family? References: <20030814201042.182.qmail@web21003.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02b901c363f6$56057a10$7d984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 77396 Mandy wrote: > > Does anyone else out there wonder if Dumbledore has > > or had any > > family? He seems to be a wonderful man and I'd be > > surprised if he > > was not married at some point. > How about the Druidess Clidona, former owner of Fawkes? Dumbledore had to get that Phoenix from somewhere! Perhaps she was his wife when she was alive. Sorry, I can't remeber where the refernce to her is found... Nox (just a thought - never mind. As you were...) From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Fri Aug 15 18:57:18 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:57:18 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F3D2D0E.8050500@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77397 > > > I'm re-reading CoS. Harry gets a toothpick for Xmas from the > > Dursley's with a note asking him to see if he can stay at Hogwarts > > for the summer holidays, too > > > What the h*** is Petunia thinking? Is this a FLINT? Since OoP we > know > > that Petunia knows Harry has to come home to keep LV off his back, > > and we also know that Petunia has completely (if grudingly) > accepted > > this burden. Are we to assume she had nothing to do with the note, > > that it was from Vernon Dursley and not "the Dursleys?" > > sebfish5: > > Harry would be just as safe as Hogwarts as long as Albus Dumbledore > is there, but obviously, Dumbledore wants his own holiday, but you > can't blame Petunia and the Dursleys for trying. > > me, Occam: > > Nope, can't blame her, but doesn't Harry have to be there once a > year to preserve the protection with Petunia? If she succeeded in > getting Harry to stay at Hogwarts for the summer, wouldn't that mean > that AD became HP's only safe haven, and that the Petunia protection > would be lost forever? > > -- Occam > Based on what we know about the Dursleys, I don't see any reason that they wouldn't want to hand over Harry to Dumbledore. It would be a great weight off their shoulders and they wouldn't have to worry about what the neighbors think anymore. -- Colin's American Weblog in London [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 19:01:34 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:01:34 -0000 Subject: Death clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > The US book has Umbridge's Decree's and other signs in picture form, > while here in Australia, the words are just printed like other parts > of the book. So was the "Dai Llewellyn" in picture form (I still > wouldn't have picked it even if it was)? > > Maybe JKR has spoken to a few aussies. "Day" and "Dai" always sounds > like "Die" with our accent ... lol > > aussie / Norbert's Mummy Me: While the decrees are in picture form, the sign in the hospital with Creature-Induced Injuries was printed just like the rest of the book in the U.S. version. James Redmont From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 19:03:12 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:03:12 -0000 Subject: Toothpick and un-invitation to Privet Drive In-Reply-To: <3F3D2D0E.8050500@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Ravenclaw Black wrote: > Based on what we know about the Dursleys, I don't see any reason that > they wouldn't want to hand over Harry to Dumbledore. It would be a > great weight off their shoulders and they wouldn't have to worry about > what the neighbors think anymore. > Dumbledore seemed to iply that Petunia knew what keeping Harry meant. My thoughts are that she doesn't want him, but she doesn't want him to die either. Vernon may not know. Maybe he wrote the letter asking if Harry could stay over the summer. bibphile From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 19:05:19 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:05:19 -0000 Subject: Simple acronym for theory (was: Myrtle an Evans? ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77400 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Marci" wrote: > MYRTLE: Maybe You're Related To Lily Evans But, what if there is more? A last name has > > not been given yet (has it?) so could Moaning Myrtle be an Evans? Me: Ugh, I hope not, since Myrtle has a crush on Harry and has seen him naked...blech. James Redmont From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 19:06:21 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:06:21 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ron's academic achivements in book 5 In-Reply-To: <3F3D2B97.3020001@ipartner.com.pl> References: <3F3D2B97.3020001@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: <4411229643.20030815120621@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77401 Hi, Friday, August 15, 2003, 11:51:03 AM, Przemyslaw wrote: > Therefore I respectfully submit notion of Ron being worse than Harry > in > classes is no longer valid. I actually don't recall Ron *ever* being much worse than Harry in their classes. They seem pretty equal, overall. Of course, Harry is the main character and has inherited all this talent (or was some of it transferred from LV?) and can do some things without even having to practice much (like flying, being a keeper, defeating the Imperius Curse). He also receives a lot more individual tutoring in some areas, while other students are just not even thought capable at the same age. I'm sure the Patronus could be achieved by a lot more students at a younger age, if they just received instructions. I'm actually a little surprised how hard magic seems to come to most students. Hermione seems to be the only one in their year who can do anything on the first try. Most kids seem to have trouble remembering simple incantations, or follow a potion recipe written down right in front of them, for some reason. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Fri Aug 15 19:09:04 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:09:04 -0000 Subject: Alohamora In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77402 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > --- "daelyn_duprer" wrote: (editted by aussie) > > My question is this - when does Alohamora work, and when doesn't > > it? In the dept of mysteries, I seem to remember (Hermione) uses > the Collecorpus spell to seal a door, but the DE's break through > > with Alohamora. The heroes then retreat into the room with many > > doors, which they begin sealing with the same spell, one door > > at a time. The DE's, rather than using Alohamora to open the > > doors, race all they way around until they beat the spellcasters > > to an unlocked entrance. Why didn't they take the easy way in? Or > > is Alohamora such an obsolete spell that only Hermione and an > > apparantly well-read DE remember it? Any explanations would help, > > this is a nitpicky thing that is driving me nuts. > > > Umm .. dunno, but if it is any use, 12 DE went down to 5. The one > that used Alohomora on the Colloportus spell (I had to look up the > spelling) was a victim of a "Stupify spell" and didn't make it to the > Brain Room. If Alohomora was such common knowledge, locks would be > obsolete in Hogwarts .. lol. > > aussie It's my theory that it takes one (or several combined) with equal or greater power to undo or "counter" another's spell. Perhaps not just anyone Death Eater could unlock the door sealing spells. As far as Harry and Hermione, I think it is plausible that they are both rather gifted and powerful people. Some of the lesser DE may not be of the same power and able to unlock them while only some are. I think the "power" of a witch or wizard is very important as it seems to bstressed by lots of people. I think Voldemort is an example of a wizard who is gifted with a lot of natural power and talent but has an insatiable thirst for more and more power and will not stop at any cost to gain ever more power. Many of his DE followers, it seems to me, join him for a share or promise of a portion of this power or the knowledge to gain power. Dumbledore, on the other hand, is one gifted with awesome natural power and talent, as well, however, he regard it as a gift and a responisbility which he must be careful to wield only to protect lesser people from other powerful wizards. Arya From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 19:09:48 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:09:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) Message-ID: <410-22003851519948176@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77403 Hello, Everyone, I'm a bit leery of posting this to the main list, as I fear it's not on topic. However, I think some important stuff is being addressed here, and I want to add my comments. And if it ends up on OT, most of the people to whom I'm speaking probably wouldn't see it. I'm not a moderator, and have absolutely no official authority to say these things. But I've been a member of this list for a while now, and I enjoy it, and it's important to me that it remains a pleasant place for us to discuss all things Potter. So, I apologise to the Mods if this is inappropriate, but here goes: James wrote: > > Too right. Am I the only one who's sick of telling people things > like this? I think the admins should start making a list of facts > people keep screwing up and list them in the database somewhere. > For instance: > James Redmont, who feels that getting the facts straight will allow > these discussions to be more enjoyable! To which Geoff responded: "Bear in mind that we all feel the same way at times. I have answered queries on several occasions lately only to find someone asking the same thing a day or so later. We just have to remember that there are a huge number of posts coming in; I don't think I've been in a Usenet group or a Yahoo! group with such a heavy post before. " Now me (Wendy): I'm with James on this one. I see your point Geoff, but the fact is that we have rules on this list, and lately, IMHO, there are lots and lots of posters who haven't been following them. I know there are TONS of new people on this list in the past couple of months, and that they need a bit of time to get up to speed with how the list works. But when I joined, I made a point of carefully reading through all the posting guidelines and following them to the best of my ability, and I don't think it's too much to expect for others to do the same. In my own case, I went back and read some of the things that had been posted in the past, and I lurked for a while before posting, so I could get a feel for the tone of the discussions on the board. I'm not suggesting everyone else should do this, but I do think that it's not too much to expect for someone to do a bit of research of their own before submitting something to the list. Of course discussion topics are going to come up again and again here. That's part of the fun. But I get really annoyed to read a first time poster starting out with, "I haven't seen this discussed on the list. I joined yesterday," and then continue on with a post about something that had been discussed in depth the week before (sometimes, literally, even the day before). There is a search function on the message board, and no matter how much we joke about Yahoomort, I've always had pretty good luck searching. It's at least worth a try. Reading through all the messages in a thread before making a response is also a good idea. If everyone did that, we could avoid having twelve different people repeating the same answers to one-line questions. And I don't see it as being the job of the Mods to create yet another FAQ. There already is an impressive FAQ on this list. It's up to each list member to take the time to read it before posting messages to the list. Moving on to a slightly different subject, I have also been really annoyed lately with the number of posts which have just not been following the basic posting rules. There's even been one on this thread - a "Me Too" post in which the poster then blithely admitted she had nothing else to say. Not to pick on this person in partcular, but that post should have been seent privately to James. I'm totally in favour of the "Me Too" post to the author - it's great to hear from someone that they enjoyed something you wrote. But that is supposed to happen off-list if there's nothing new being added to the discussion. Of course, I'm much angrier about it when I've had to scroll down six pages of unsnipped material to find the one line of non-info. Snipping seems to have become a bit of a problem here, even with people who are adding something new to the discussion. My understanding of the posting guidelines is that we should be trying to leave only the *minimum* information from past messages in our responses, just to put our comments into context. If someone wants to read the first poster's comments in their entirety, that message can be found by going upthread, or by looking around a bit on the message board. I love this list, and I've been a member for about a year and a half now, and in that time I have done my best to follow the posting rules (although I'm probably breaking several with this post). We're all grownups here, so I expect other posters to do the same. Of course, it's the job of the moderators to make sure things run smoothly, and I think they do a great job. I can't even imagine how much work it must be to keep up with the volume of posts now that list membership is up over 10,000. And in general, the rules and the current system DO work. Very well, in fact. I'm amazed now to go out onto other lists and be utterly shocked by the low-quality of messages that float around out there. This list is not like that at all - our discussions are conducted at a very high level, and I really appreciate that. Having said that, I have also found that in recent weeks, there are a huge number of posts which have been a waste of my time, purely because of carelessness on the part of the poster, and failing to follow list guidelines. I would humbly suggest that maybe some regular reminders go out about how we are supposed to be posting on this list. I agree that discussions here will be a lot more enjoyable for everyone if we are all following the rules, or at least making a conscious effort to do so - we all make mistakes now and again. (I made one myself yesterday, off-list thankfully). But if we're all aware of the guidelines and doing our best to follow them, this group will continue to be a fantastic place for us to discuss these books that we all love so very much. Respectfully, Wendy St. John From redfish5 at onetel.com Fri Aug 15 17:49:27 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:49:27 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77404 J.K.Rowling has said there is something which is the "heart of it all" and that "none of the fans have guessed it yet, though they have skirted around it" (Newsnight interview, before order of the phoenix) she also said "she has laid all her clues" in a sense there will still be more but she has laid plenty. okay so 1) What do you think this heart is, if you are that much of a god but, more likely 2) What, or who, do you think this "heart" revolves around? I think it has to be something to do with Snape, and his relationship with Lily and James, and his current job. Although he specifically states that his job is to spy on the Death Eaters. I'm not saying Snape is a bad guy, infact, I think he is a good guy, but I think he is the centre of everything. From redfish5 at onetel.com Fri Aug 15 17:57:01 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:57:01 -0000 Subject: Most powerful wizard in the books? barring DD and LV Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77405 I'd say Severus Snape or Bellatrix Lestrange, Mcgonagall and Flitwick are both very good wizards but there is little "power" about them. Lupin is also vrey powerful but I think he is a notch below. If I was picking duelling teams I'd pick snape first. Now, create your own, duelling team, can't have dumbledore or Voldemort. Mine 1.Severus Snape 2.Bellatrix Lestrange 3.Remus Lupin 4.Sirius Black(yes you can have him) 5.Alastor "Mad Eye" Moody. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 19:18:50 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:18:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jedi_hermione" > wrote: > > > JKR said this at Quickquotes > > > > > > ... outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his > > glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his > > vulnerability?" " > > > > > > Hmm. I'll have to think about what that could mean. > > > > > > Joj > > > > ... Or perhaps the lenses can be used to channel a spell directly > > into his eyes. ...edited... > > > > *~Aeryn~* > > > bboy_mn: > > Kind of makes you go 'hummmm...'. Suddenly I see Harry spending the > entire books 7 wearing a pair of chrome/mirror finish clip-on sunglasses. > > Well, we can associate glasses with eye, and the association with eyes > has always been to Harry having his mother's eyes, and for some > reason, we have always associated that with a strength or perhaps a > tool/weapon. The above could now imply that having Lily's eyes is not > a strength but a weakness. > > But then who knows. > > bboy_mn Perhaps it is his "vision" that is his weakness. Not his eyes physically but what he can see with them. If he was unable to see Sirius in the DOM, then he would not have put Sirius or his friends at risk by trapsing off to save Sirius. (I know they were mental projections of LV's) It seems that what he sees does get him in trouble alot, the mirror, the spiders, etc. Maybe Harry will see the death of a friend too close to him, Ron or Hermione perhaps, and this "vision" will push him too far to the brink of insanity. Harry must be pretty close to a mental break down now, after all he has been through and everything he knows (through the prophecy) that is still to come. Talk about stress, geez. Severus "letting my caring side show" Snape From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 15 19:19:31 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:19:31 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77407 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > > Nice one. > > The Queen does matter. > > The Armed Forces, the Police and the Judicuary all swear personal > > oaths of loyalty to the Queen, not to Parliament, even though > that's > > who pays their salaries. If the Queen ( upon advice) refused to > sign > > a piece of legislation, it could not be passed into law. There > would > > be a constitutional crisis. Parliament *could* depose the Queen, or > > at least force an abdication in these circumstances, but it would > > get very messy, especially if some of the above groups decided to > > take their oaths seriously. > > > > Unfortunately for A. Blair Esq., the post of Prime Minister does > > not figure in the English Constitution. It is a courtesy title for > the > > leader of the party forming the government. He is supposed to > > derive his power and authority through Parliament and has no > > other constitutional powers. I don't think he's happy with this. > > > > Kneasy > > Me: > > So by saying the Queen *does* matter (in the Potterverse), you mean > one of two things: > > 1)The WW is under the Queen (am I the only one who thinks this is > doubtful?) > > or... > > 2)You believe the Queen, rather than the PM (which is supported in > canon), would be involved in matters such as securing the secrecy of > the WW? > > (Here's the OT part, which you guys seem to be enjoying. If having > a Queen could potentially cause so much instability, isn't Tony > Blair quite right to feel unhappy about the situation? JMHO ) > > James "thank buddha for democracy" Redmont You've missed one. Maybe the Queen *is* magical. After all, she just has to say the word and ships slide into the sea, bridges are opened and personages elevated. What could be more magical than that? Tony Blair, like Fudge, is a politician. Like Fudge, you'd be a fool to trust him. The Queen knows when to keep her mouth shut, unlike every politician that grasps at expediency instead of principle. The royal children used to go to some weird school in the wilds of Scotland for their education (sound familiar?). Since they never seemed to learn anything of significance to the muggle world, we must assume they learned something else. Charles talks to plants, perhaps they talk back. Prof Sprout would be proud of him. Merlin was advisor to a king, maybe the Order of Merlin is an ancient decoration bestowed by the Crown. And that isn't a sceptre, it's an Ollivander special with tail hairs from the unicorn on the Royal Coat of Arms. Kneasy P.S. What's democracy? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 15 19:20:52 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:20:52 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77408 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ratalman" wrote: > > Yes, Snape calls him "Draco" just before the pensieve scene: > > "It's all right, Draco," said Snape, lowering his wand. Potter is > > here for a little Remedial Potions." (OoP, p. 638, US ed.) > > > > This is the only instance, however, that I can think of. > > > > Robyn > > Robyn again: > Except for 6 lines down, on the same page, where Snape calls > him "Draco" again: '"Well, Draco, what is it?' asked Snape." I noticed that, too, and I think it is significant. I don't think we've ever seen Snape address any student by his or her given name until now. In fact, it's unusual altogether at Hogwarts. I think the only other teacher who does so is Dumbledore when he speaks to Harry. (I don't count Hagrid, because he's a bit outside the "academic" world.) He refers to "Ron", but doesn't address him directly by his given name. I think it indicates an unusual degree of closeness, and I also think that it shows that Snape feels genuine concern about Draco, and is not just putting on an act. Wanda From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 19:23:15 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:23:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what is "the heart of it all"? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77409 sebfish5: J.K.Rowling has said there is something which is the "heart of it all" and that "none of the fans have guessed it yet, though they have skirted around it" (Newsnight interview, before order of the phoenix) she also said "she has laid all her clues" in a sense there will still be more but she has laid plenty. okay so 1) What do you think this heart is, if you are that much of a god but, more likely 2) What, or who, do you think this "heart" revolves around? I think it has to be something to do with Snape, and his relationship with Lily and James, and his current job. Although he specifically states that his job is to spy on the Death Eaters. I'm not saying Snape is a bad guy, infact, I think he is a good guy, but I think he is the centre of everything. Dan: I believe the "heart of it all" is Neville. This *was* before OoP's release, and though many fans guessed it (myself, and others on this list, for example) we've seen it spelled out rather clearly that There's Something About Longbottom. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 19:25:17 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:25:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Most powerful wizard in the books? barring DD and LV References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77410 sebfish5: I'd say Severus Snape or Bellatrix Lestrange, Mcgonagall and Flitwick are both very good wizards but there is little "power" about them. Lupin is also vrey powerful but I think he is a notch below. If I was picking duelling teams I'd pick snape first. Now, create your own, duelling team, can't have dumbledore or Voldemort. Mine 1.Severus Snape 2.Bellatrix Lestrange 3.Remus Lupin 4.Sirius Black(yes you can have him) 5.Alastor "Mad Eye" Moody. Dan: I don't agree that McG/Flitwick have little "power." McG is getting older, and Flitwick's tiny, but they're very skilled, if only in their individual subjects. Now, for my team: 1. (Whatever his first name is) Flitwick, a dueling champion 2. Severus Snape, with his skill in curses 3. Minerva McGonagall, because I'm sure some heavy transfiguration would come in handy 4. Lily Evans, the charming one 5. Rubeus Hagrid--if he trains up a bit, his 1/2 giant protection is a major plus; I wonder what other charms he easily withstands... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 19:31:52 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:31:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jedi_hermione" > wrote: > > > JKR said this at Quickquotes > > > > > > ... outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his > > glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his > > vulnerability?" > Well, we can associate glasses with eye, and the association with > eyes has always been to Harry having his mother's eyes, and for > some reason, we have always associated that with a strength or > perhaps a tool/weapon. The above could now imply that having > Lily's eyes is not a strength but a weakness. > > But then who knows. > > bboy_mn Another idea just struck me, Lily could not bear to "see" her son Harry die, so she sacrificed herself to spare him. LV said she didn't have to die. HMMMM? So what if Harry has the same intense amount of love for his friends (his only family in his eyes) that, in seeing one of them about to be AK'ed by LV, he does the same thing? LV askes him to join him instead, but Harry refuses and sacrifices his life for his friends instead? Passing the protection to someone new, so now LV is no longer protected from it by Harry's blood? Just a thought. One more thing. Has anyone notice Kadavra sounds alot like cadaver? Severus Snape From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 19:34:18 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:34:18 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > J.K.Rowling has said there is something which is the "heart of it > all" and that "none of the fans have guessed it yet, > ::snip:: I think it has to be something to do with Snape, and his > relationship with Lily and James, and his current job. Although he > specifically states that his job is to spy on the Death Eaters. > I'm not saying Snape is a bad guy, infact, I think he is a good > guy, but I think he is the centre of everything. I have to agree--Snape is just too...THERE. It CAN'T be that he's just in the right place at the right time or in the wrong place at the wrong time. He's far too important to turn out a "peripheral character". Although I've said time and time again that I can't put any credance into anything JKR says in interviews, her "Keep an eye on old Severus" comments and assertions that 'there's more there than meets the eye' (well she's never been HERE obviously! ;-)) I have to admit, all roads DO seem to lead to Severus. I think what's being "danced around" is this "Life Debt" issue. We might not have it *exactly* right on HER terms, but I bet we're close. I don't think it's really a DEBT as such, is it? Didn't Dumbledore *actually* call it a "BOND"? (I don't have the book here.) Snape himself probabaly sees it as a debt, but that's him just wanting to be shut of James IMHO. I mean, does he Want to be Bonded to James??? Or by extension, James' son? ANYWAY, Add the new theory of it being Snape who 1. Overheard The Prophecy to the old one of it being Snape who 2. Tipped Off Dumbledore and I say we have a pretty good dance. Melpomene, dancing as fast as she can. (and isn't even a LOLLIPOPS adherant--there's plenty of music without that!) From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Fri Aug 15 19:34:23 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:34:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] what is "the heart of it all"? References: Message-ID: <004801c36364$3afa0890$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 77413 sebfish5 asks: J.K.Rowling has said there is something which is the "heart of it all" and that "none of the fans have guessed it yet, though they have skirted around it" (Newsnight interview, before order of the phoenix) she also said "she has laid all her clues" in a sense there will still be more but she has laid plenty. okay so 1) What do you think this heart is, if you are that much of a god but, more likely 2) What, or who, do you think this "heart" revolves around? Joj answers: I think it means that Harry is not going to kill Voldemort with the Avada Kedavra curse. I think Harry will do something he never did before, or do something unintentionally, like he usually does. Anyone could hit V with Avada Kedavra. I think it will have something to do with love. Either love Harry feels for others or love others feel for him. He has very loyal friends. I probably haven't answered your question, but I think Avada Kedavra is beneath Harry. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Aug 15 19:08:36 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:08:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308152108.36748.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77414 Allyson: > Exactly! What is with the parents? I'm no expert, but I always > understood that vampires were created by one vampire biting a person, > not by two adult vampires getting it on. Even if one of the parents > were human, I imagine the vampire parent would be infertile. To me, > that would be a natural by-product of being undead. Search for Dhampires. You know about cells and reproduction theory, but this knowledge wasn't in vogue when vampire myths spreaded, so it wasn't a natural by-product and certain vampire versions can have children. <> He sleeps in it? What's the matter? Again, certain vampires sleep wherever they want. <> Easy. Vampire, human or half, he was a newbie that a werewolf would have cut into tiny little pieces. Vampires usually appreciate their undead state and do not want to be vanished from existance. It would be an unlife-debt. <> John William Polidori, 'The Vampire' (? ESL, 'El Vampiro'), first published 1819. <> Dhampires are supossed to grow up. And, why not the church? I don't happen to think Snape is a vampire/dhampire, btw, but a big red herring covering a real one. silmariel From rredordead at aol.com Fri Aug 15 19:48:47 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:48:47 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77415 > > (And now I'm going to do something I don't normally do...I usually > > like to pinpoint my facts *before* speculating, but isn't there a > > known deatheater who has a name that could be shortened to Algie? > > If anyone can find it, please post it.) > > > > James "Evil!Gran/Algie" Redmont > > You probably think of Algernon Rookwood. See message 77087 > > Marika No it was Augustus Rookwood. According to the Lexicon and they're very reliable. But there are many DE's whose first names we don't know yet. Mandy From june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 15 19:49:10 2003 From: june.diamanti at blueyonder.co.uk (junediamanti) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:49:10 -0000 Subject: FILK: Smells Like Gryffindor Spirit Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77416 Noticing the sudden proliferation of FILKs on the site, what could I do, but add my own: Smells Like Gryffindor Spirit To the tune of Oh for God's sake do I need to spell this out? Scene: Harry is getting behind the idea of the DA. This number is the recruiting song. Harry: Load up on wands and Bring your friends It's fun to spell And just repell Curse over board And not allowed I know, I know An evil word Chorus: Hello, hello, how low would you go? (repeat x 4) Chorus: In this room it's much less dangerous Here we are now Go on and train us Neville: I feel stupid and so dangerous Chorus: Here we are now Go on and train us We are pureblood, Harry train us! 'Gainst the terror, `Gainst the fear-o Yeah! Hey! Hey! Harry: I'm best at kicking Voldy's ass And with a curse I'll always blast Our little group has always been The best until the very last Hello, hello, how low would you go? (x 4 times) Hermione: In this room it's much less dangerous Chorus: Here we are now Get on and train us 'Gainst the Dark Arts very dangerous We are Muggles! Harry train us! 'Gainst the terror, `Gainst the fear-o Neville: My lack of skill-o, of knowledge! Yeah! Hey! Hey! [Harry does fantastic air guitar solo using wand] Harry: And I'll forget all about Snape , And other things that just make me shake I find it hard, it's hard not to mind That Dumbledore's dropped me out his mind Hello, hello, how low would you go? (x 4 times) Chorus: Dolores Umbridge! That's too scary! Forbidden Forest ? things so hairy Here's Filch ? looking really lary Here we are now Get on and train us 'Gainst the Dark Arts very dangerous We are Muggles! Harry train us! 'Gainst the terror, `Gainst the fear-o No denial, lets get going No denial, let s get ready No denial No denial Hope you like it Jeez you'd better ? try listening to the original for 20 minutes or so on continuous loop at high volume. Actually, going on holiday on Sunday night so really don't give a stuff whether you all like it or not! Cheers June From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 19:49:33 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:49:33 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77417 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > J.K.Rowling has said there is something which is the "heart of it > all" and that "none of the fans have guessed it yet, though they > have skirted around it" (Newsnight interview, before order of the > phoenix) she also said "she has laid all her clues" in a sense there > will still be more but she has laid plenty. > okay so > 1) What do you think this heart is, if you are that much of a god > but, more likely > 2) What, or who, do you think this "heart" revolves around? > > I think it has to be something to do with Snape, and his > relationship with Lily and James, and his current job. Although he > specifically states that his job is to spy on the Death Eaters. > I'm not saying Snape is a bad guy, infact, I think he is a good > guy, but I think he is the centre of everything. Snape here: I think it is why everthing seems to revolve around Harry, and I am not saying this because the books are about him. Think about it for a moment... Harry is always putting himself into various perdicaments because he cares enough to risk his life for others. He did it in PS/SS, because there was noone else around to stop LV from getting the stone and coming back to destroy everyone. In COS, it is Ginny he has to rescue, he just met this girl a year before and he goes off to fight an enormous snake for her? In POA, he cares enough to spare wormtails life, give Sirius the benefit of the doubt and except him as family even though he thought him a murderer just moments before. In GOF he has a hard time leaving all the others stranded at the bottom of the lake, and has serious issues in dealing with Cedrick's death. In OotP, Harry lets his emotions rule him and this makes him very dangerous to himself and others around him, as we saw at the end. His emotional out break over Serius is what caused Serius to be at the DOM in the first place. LV plays Harry emotions well through each book. But... As DD says, Harry's strongest attribute is his love that he has from him mother. This also pertains to my post about Harry's glasses. The heart of the matter is the heart. Severus "geez, that was glurgy" Snape From lmbolland at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 19:51:55 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:51:55 -0000 Subject: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: <004b01c362cf$9b4860b0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77418 > > ---sebfish5 said: > > Jk Rowling has REPEATEDLY SAID in interviews that Harry will NOT > end up with Hermione, however(I am a ardent R/H, by the way) why > would she say this so explicitly? I think (but deperately pray > against) that she may just be trying to lure everyone into think > this way before WHAM! massive H/H relationship. Would you be willing to post either links or quotes on this? Has she actually said that Harry "will not end up with" Hermione? It seems to me she hasn't made too many promises for the future on *any* character - I'd like to see the quotes... Lauri From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 19:51:54 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 12:51:54 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's glasses. References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77419 Severus Snape: Has anyone notice Kadavra sounds alot like cadaver? Dan: Yes--Further, according to the Lexicon, Avada Kedavra comes from: Aramaic: "adhadda kedhabhra" - "let the thing be destroyed". NOTE: Abracadabra is a cabbalistic charm in Judaic mythology that is supposed to bring healing powers. One of its sources is believed to be from Aramaic avada kedavra, another is the Phoenician alphabet (a-bra-ca-dabra). Further, according to the Magical Worlds of Harry Potter, "That phrase...was used by ancient wizards to make illnesses disappear. However, there's no proof it was ever used to kill anyone." (pp.17-19) -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Aug 15 19:54:54 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:54:54 -0000 Subject: My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: <3F3CD518.6030509@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77420 It feels like I'm butting in rather unnecessarily on this, but I'm just gonna do it anyway... Hickengruendler wrote: Umbridge was the main reason most parts > > of the school started to work together. Ravenclaw Black replied: > That's a good point, but I don't think most of the school was working > together. It was pretty much the D.A. that became and inter house > organization. evangelina (which is me) ... I just want to point out that the DA was a direct result of Umbridge. Had the students had a decent teacher who actually taught them DADA, they would never have formed Dumbledore's Army. From sylviablundell at aol.com Fri Aug 15 19:59:55 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:59:55 -0000 Subject: Who was kissing Florence? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77421 Is it possible that it was Barty Crouch Junior who Bertha Jorkins saw kissing Florence. Please don't kill me if (a) it isn't possible or (b) this has already been suggested dozens of times. From rredordead at aol.com Fri Aug 15 20:01:00 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:01:00 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77422 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > > > Nice one. > > > The Queen does matter. > > > The Armed Forces, the Police and the Judicuary all swear personal > > > oaths of loyalty to the Queen, not to Parliament, even though > > that's > > > who pays their salaries. If the Queen ( upon advice) refused to > > sign > > > a piece of legislation, it could not be passed into law. There > > would > > > be a constitutional crisis. Parliament *could* depose the Queen, or > > > at least force an abdication in these circumstances, but it would > > > get very messy, especially if some of the above groups decided to > > > take their oaths seriously. > > > > > > Unfortunately for A. Blair Esq., the post of Prime Minister does > > > not figure in the English Constitution. It is a courtesy title for > > the > > > leader of the party forming the government. He is supposed to > > > derive his power and authority through Parliament and has no > > > other constitutional powers. I don't think he's happy with this. > > > > > > Kneasy > > > > Me: > > > > So by saying the Queen *does* matter (in the Potterverse), you mean > > one of two things: > > > > 1)The WW is under the Queen (am I the only one who thinks this is > > doubtful?) > > > > or... > > > > 2)You believe the Queen, rather than the PM (which is supported in > > canon), would be involved in matters such as securing the secrecy of > > the WW? > > > > (Here's the OT part, which you guys seem to be enjoying. If having > > a Queen could potentially cause so much instability, isn't Tony > > Blair quite right to feel unhappy about the situation? JMHO ) > > > > James "thank buddha for democracy" Redmont > > You've missed one. Maybe the Queen *is* magical. After all, she > just has to say the word and ships slide into the sea, bridges are > opened and personages elevated. What could be more magical > than that? > > Tony Blair, like Fudge, is a politician. Like Fudge, you'd be a fool > to trust him. The Queen knows when to keep her mouth shut, > unlike every politician that grasps at expediency instead of > principle. > > The royal children used to go to some weird school in the wilds > of Scotland for their education (sound familiar?). Since they never > seemed to learn anything of significance to the muggle world, we > must assume they learned something else. Charles talks to plants, > perhaps they talk back. Prof Sprout would be proud of him. > > Merlin was advisor to a king, maybe the Order of Merlin is > an ancient decoration bestowed by the Crown. And that isn't a > sceptre, it's an Ollivander special with tail hairs from the unicorn > on the Royal Coat of Arms. > > Kneasy > P.S. What's democracy? Thank-you all for some very entertaining posts!! I for one thinks the Queen, in relation to the WW, is most definitely a Witch. Properly had Dumbledore for transfuration and was in the same year as Tom Riddle. ER was definitely a Griffindor, so had little to do with Tom but I'll place money on the fact they were Head boy and girl together. Her children: Charles ? Squib (Diana - witch), Anne ? Witch, Andrew ? Wizard, Edward ? Squib. Mandy in anticipation of being arrested for Treason. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 20:02:33 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:02:33 -0000 Subject: Most powerful wizard in the books? barring DD and LV In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > sebfish5: > I'd say Severus Snape or Bellatrix Lestrange, Mcgonagall and > Flitwick are both very good wizards but there is little "power" > about them. Lupin is also vrey powerful but I think he is a notch > below. > If I was picking duelling teams I'd pick snape first. > > Now, create your own, duelling team, can't have dumbledore or > Voldemort. > Mine > 1.Severus Snape > 2.Bellatrix Lestrange > 3.Remus Lupin > 4.Sirius Black(yes you can have him) > 5.Alastor "Mad Eye" Moody. > > Dan: > I don't agree that McG/Flitwick have little "power." McG is getting older, and Flitwick's tiny, but they're very skilled, if only in their individual subjects. Now, for my team: > > 1. (Whatever his first name is) Flitwick, a dueling champion > 2. Severus Snape, with his skill in curses > 3. Minerva McGonagall, because I'm sure some heavy transfiguration would come in handy > 4. Lily Evans, the charming one > 5. Rubeus Hagrid--if he trains up a bit, his 1/2 giant protection is a major plus; I wonder what other charms he easily withstands... Try considering who is feared, why they are feared, and by whom they are feared. (For now I'll stick with the living.) Lucius Malfoy is definitely feared, as per Dumbledore's comment at the end of CoS about the other school governers being under the impression that Lucius would curse them if they didn't vote in support of suspending Dumbledore. Lucius seems to display a complete lack of conscience, but some adroitness in politics. That lack of conscience is an advantage in a serious duel, as there would be no hesitation in the attack, being unconcerned about the effects upon the target. Snape is feared for being very knowledgeable with regard to curses, as well as potions, including poisons. Though the potions and poisons would not be of direct help in a duel or combat, he may well have a number of potions in mind and hand that would give him an edge, and he is a nasty enough cuss to not hestitate in either duel or combat. Moody is both feared and respected. He's powerful enough to "bring 'em back alive," if at all possible, or to kill them if it isn't. Sure, he's now getting old, and a little paranoid, but his undeniable power and skill derived from long experience in the most desperate of combat has to count for something, and a little paranoia keeps the reflexes quick. Flitwick isn't feared ... or at least we haven't heard about it. However, a dueling champion is a dueling champion, and you don't earn a title without some very real power and skill. Also, we know that he and McGonagall are able to easily clean up magical messes that at least some others find near impossible (the swamp, etc., in OotP). If better isn't available, he'll do as a reserve or a stand-in. McGonagall is, without question, both powerful and knowledgable, but though feared by students, she doesn't seem to be feared much outside Hogwarts ... unless you consider the number of stunners that hit her a kind of homage due a feared witch charging at you. Again, she's likely a reserve. Lupin is feared for being a werewolf, which doesn't involve magical ability at all, but still, we know his a talented wizard, and has little to lose. All that time running around with James and Sirius definitely rubbed off, so he is at least a reserve. Kingsley Shacklebolt is, as an auror, feared, and he has the experience to be a rather senior one. He did a nifty little memory charm in a somewhat crowded room without being noticed by the wrong people, which shows some real intelligence and skill. Thus, he is likely a lower pick for the team, but probably on it. Beatrix Lestrange is feared, she's now probably more than a little crazy, and she is devoid of anything remotely resembling a conscience. Particularly if you were in combat, and you could be assured that she really was on your side, she could come in quite handy. No hesitation, good power and a serious attitude. She's on the team, but others are unlikely to turn their backs toward her unnecessarily. So, who else do we know enough about to make at least preliminary estimates of their abilities? And what do YOU think of them? From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 15 20:04:14 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:04:14 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" wrote: > > > For heavans sake, whoever said she wanted to write 'the great literary > classic'? its a childrens book! I for one dont care how badly or well its > written. I personally judge books on how they make me feel. Ahem. Since this is a reply to my post, I'd like to point out that I didn't start this question of HP's status among the classics. I was responding to an earlier post, which rather provocatively claimed that Rowling was a better writer than Tolkien, Austen or Lewis. I said she wasn't, and will not be considered their equal in the future. Furthermore, I think Rowling herself would laugh if someone made such a claim to her. She seems like a smart, sensible woman, and has every right to be proud of what she's accomplished. But being sensible, she'd probably admit that she's not in the same league with those writers, and it's foolish to claim that she is. Wanda From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 15 20:05:08 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:05:08 -0000 Subject: Dudley Demented Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77425 I was just listening to Oop again and it struck me that just a couple days before the dementor attack Harry received Honeyduke's chocolate from BOTH Ron and Hermoine. For one thing, that is a minor gift from Hermoine compared to the other birthday gifts she has given him in the past. Plus both of them are together. Couldn't they have coordinated to give him different gifts? I do also think Mrs. Figg did actually see the dementors because while Harry was kneeling next to Dudley is when she came running up talking about dementors being in Lttle Whinging. She did not come running up asking Harry what happened. Just my thoughts. : ) Susan From rredordead at aol.com Fri Aug 15 20:18:46 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:18:46 -0000 Subject: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ratalman" > wrote: > > > Yes, Snape calls him "Draco" just before the pensieve scene: > > > "It's all right, Draco," said Snape, lowering his wand. Potter > is > > > here for a little Remedial Potions." (OoP, p. 638, US ed.) > > > > > > This is the only instance, however, that I can think of. > > > > > > Robyn > > > > Robyn again: > > Except for 6 lines down, on the same page, where Snape calls > > him "Draco" again: '"Well, Draco, what is it?' asked Snape." > > I noticed that, too, and I think it is . I don't think > we've ever seen Snape address any student by his or her given name > until now. In fact, it's unusual altogether at Hogwarts. I think > the only other teacher who does so is Dumbledore when he speaks to > Harry. (I don't count Hagrid, because he's a bit outside > the "academic" world.) He refers to "Ron", but doesn't address him > directly by his given name. I think it indicates an unusual degree > of closeness, and I also think that it shows that Snape feels > genuine concern about Draco, and is not just putting on an act. > > Wanda I imagine it has to do with Snape's outside connection with Lucius Malfoy which has been hinted at repeatedly. Possibly Snape has had contact with Draco outside school, and has to show more respect toward him if he's working for his dad. (What was it Sirius said 'Now Lucius has go his Lap dog back' or something.) But how this new Snape/Draco relationship is significant I'm not sure. Mandy From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Fri Aug 15 20:34:49 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:34:49 +0200 Subject: Harry/Cho SHIPping in book 5 (and Hermione's reaction for it -- H/H debunking) Message-ID: <3F3D43E9.2080107@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 77427 Hello again, Making R/H shipping notes during 3rd reread of OotP, I also make some observations about Harry/Cho relationship (which, I believe hadn't been yet discussed on this forum). Firstly, from my point of view, all Harry/Cho affair was inspired or even forced by Cho. True, Harry had some romantic feelings toward her, but he was for sure not expecting to have a full relationship with her. He was always approached by her: in the Hogwarts Express, and during lessons break. The Xmas snogging was also her idea -- it was Cho who noticed mistletoe. Also let's analyze what was said after in the common room: >>[Harry just entered and Ron was awkwardly trying to learn what has happened.] Hermione took matters out of his hands. 'Is it Cho?' she asked in a businesslike way. 'Did she *corner* [emphasis mine - P.] you after the meeting?'<< I don't think the word 'corner' should be used when describing romantic relationships. Same thing had happened during Valentines' Hogsmead weekend; obviously Cho knew exactly why she chosen Madam Malkin's cafe: >>[Decorations of Madam Malkin's caused that] Harry was reminded unpleasantly of Umbridge's office. 'Cute, isn't it?' said Cho happily. 'Er... yeah,' said Harry untruthfully. 'Look, she's decorated it for Valentine's Day!' said Cho, indicating a number of golden cherubs that were hovering over each of the small, circular tables, occasionally throwing pink confetti over the occupants. 'Aaah...'<< And later we remember Harry worrying immensely if he should kiss or hold hands with Cho. He definitely was not prepared for relationship, and Cho's forcing it on him made it even worse. Catastrophe was imminent and of course had happened: >>'You're meeting Hermione Granger? Today?'<< What was the reason of such jealousy? It seems that from Cho's point of view, when boy meets girl on February 14th, he *must* do it from romantic reasons. Does Hermione on purpose sabotaged Harry's date? I don't think so. Let's again reference book 5 for Hermione inquiring Harry about his relationship with Cho. Let's note that those inquiring are usually apropos: >>[Trio was returning from DA's founding meeting] 'And talking about Michael and Ginny... what about Cho and you?' 'What d'you mean?' said Harry quickly. [...] 'Well,' said Hermione, smiling slightly, 'she just couldn't keep her eyes off you, could she?'<< More importantly is the time when Hermione is asking Harry about Valentine's date she allegedly sabotaged: >>Cho Chang walked into the Hall with her friend Marietta. Harry's stomach gave an unpleasant lurch, but she did not look over at the Gryffindor table, and sat down with her back to him. 'Oh, I forgot to ask you,' said Hermione brightly, glancing over at the Ravenclaw table, 'what happened on your date with Cho? How come you were back so early?'<< It was only Cho Chang's entering the Hall that made Hermione remember that Harry indeed have a date on previous day -- yes the previous day, that dialogue took place during Monday's dinner. This seems to be in agreement with Hermione's remark toward Skeeter: >>'Yes, yes, one of these days you'll write more horrible stories about Harry and me,' said Hermione indifferently. 'Find someone who cares, why don't you?'<< Same thing before Gryff/Raven quidditch match: >>'Oh, gosh, I forgot!' said Hermione, watching the eagle flapping its wings as Luna walked serenely past a group of cackling and pointing Slytherins. 'Cho will be playing, won't she?' Harry, who had not forgotten this, merely grunted.<< Before I move to Xmas snogging debriefing with Ron and Hermione, I'd like, for the sake of SHIP's equality, to quote some pieces of OotP, which might in fact support H/H ship (remember however that I reread the book with R/H notion in mind, so that list is for sure biased and incomplete): 1. Let us see what memories Harry had during first Occlumency lessons:H&H Concession: >>He was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle, and his heart was bursting with jealousy... [...]he was sitting under the Sorting Hat, and it was telling him he would do well in Slytherin... *Hermione* [emphasis mine - P.] was lying in the hospital wing, her face covered with thick black hair... [...] Cho Chang was drawing nearer to him under the mistletoe...<< 2. The fact that when Hermione came to Grimmauld for Xmas, the first thing she had done, was going upstairs to Harry: >>Around six o'clock in the evening the doorbell rang and Mrs Black started screaming again. [...] 'I know you're in there,' said Hermione's voice. 'Will you please come out? I want to talk to you.'[...]So, I've come here for Christmas.' There was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold. [...] Anyway,' she said briskly, 'let's go to your bedroom, Ron's mum has lit a fire in there and she's sent up sandwiches.' Harry followed her back to the second floor. When he entered the bedroom, he was rather surprised to see both Ron and Ginny waiting for them, sitting on Ron's bed.<< Now I think that all those was staged. Apparently Hermione was recalled from her vacations because Harry's withdrawal (or she was just informed of it by Ron's letter), and after consultations with Ron and Ginny, they decided to lure Harry for a honest talk. Let's remember that Hermione is not a Weasley (yet! ). 3. Harry was helping Hermione with lessons -- with obvious results: >>Harry agreed to test Hermione after lunch on Sunday, but regretted it almost at once; she was very agitated and kept snatching the book back from him to check that she had got the answer completely right, finally hitting him hard on the nose with the sharp edge of Achievements in Charming. 'Why don't you just do it yourself?' he said firmly, handing the book back to her, his eyes watering.<< If you know some other quotes supporting H/H feel free to add there. And now, let's move for a crucial event in 5th book R/H and H/H shipping war. Post Xmas snogging debriefing starring: Harry, Ron and Hermione: [What they speak to each other was already analysed, I'd like to point out non-verbal communication between (surprise!) Ron & Hermione, so I cut almost all speech]: >>Numbly surprised, Harry nodded. Ron sniggered, breaking off when Hermione caught his eye. [...] Ron made a triumphant gesture with his fist and went into a raucous peal of laughter that made several timid-looking second-years over beside the window jump. A reluctant grin spread over Harry's face as he watched Ron rolling around on the hearthrug. Hermione gave Ron a look of deep disgust and returned to her letter. [...] Oh,' said Ron, his smile fading slightly. 'Are you that bad at kissing?' 'Dunno,' said Harry, who hadn't considered this, and immediately felt rather worried. 'Maybe I am.' 'Of course you're not,' said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at her letter. 'How do you know?' said Ron very sharply. [...] 'Ron,' said Hermione in a dignified voice, dipping the point of her quill into her inkpot, 'you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.' [...] A slightly stunned silence greeted the end of this speech, then Ron said, 'One person can't feel all that at once, they'd explode.' 'Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have,' said Hermione nastily picking up her quill again. [...]'<< Points to note here: Hermione still indifferent to Harry's dating life (see above), and Hermione's two attacks on Ron's lack of emotions. And that's make us leaving H/H ship, and entering R/H ship which I'll describe in another post in a moment. Regards, -- Pshemekan From eloiseherisson at aol.com Fri Aug 15 20:37:13 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloise_herisson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:37:13 -0000 Subject: Rookwood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77428 Naama: > I was pretty annoyed by this, don't know if it's been discussed > before (searched the archive and found nothing): > > In GoF, Pensieve scene, Karkaroff names AUGUSTUS Rookwood who passed > LV information from within the Ministry. In OoP, the Daily Prophet > announces the escape of ten DEs, among whom there is one ALGERNON > Rookwood. <> > Any thoughts? Well, actually this was the subject of my little TBAY, posted the day posting resumed after the OoP release (61396). I *believe* (do we have confirmation of this?) that this is yet another of those pesky edition differences, with the UK and UK- derived editions having Algernon and the US one having Augustus. > What kind of a name is Algernon anyway?! :-\ A very respectable, if old-fashioned one. Jack Worthing's best friend in _The Importance of being Ernest_is Algernon Moncrief. I believe that P.G.Wodehouse had more than one character named Algernon. What I find interesting is that, as an Englishwoman (via Wilde and Wodehouse) "Algernon" has inescapably upper-class connotations, which I do not recall anyone claiming for the Longbottoms. What is also inescapable is the argument that Augustus Rookwood is Ever So Sexy (46935) falls flat on its face, once you substitute the name "Algernon". "The Importance of Being Augustus" ~Eloise From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 15 20:38:36 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:38:36 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77429 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > sebfish5: > J.K.Rowling has said there is something which is the "heart of it > all" and that "none of the fans have guessed it yet, though they > have skirted around it" (Newsnight interview, before order of the > phoenix) she also said "she has laid all her clues" in a sense there > will still be more but she has laid plenty. > okay so > 1) What do you think this heart is, if you are that much of a god > but, more likely > 2) What, or who, do you think this "heart" revolves around? > I think it has something to with Dumbledore's satisfaction when he learned that Voldemort has used Harry's blood. I don't believe any minute, that Dumbledore is evil, therefore Voldemort must have made a mistake there somehow. Many fans guessed, that it was because he now has human blood in his body, which means he can die. But maybe it has something to do with the fact, that it is partly Lily's blood. Lily's blood is Harry's protection in Privet Drive, and now Voldemort has part of it in his body. Maybe this has something to do with his downfall. Of course he has the blood now for around a year, and he seems very healthy, so there must be more to it, if my theory is right. Hickengruendler From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 20:39:57 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:39:57 -0000 Subject: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77430 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" > wrote: > > > But the Lestranges and Crouch Jr didn't torture the Longbottoms > until > > after Voldemort tried to kill Harry and lost all his powers.. > > > > KathyK > > Me (Redmont): > > Too right. Am I the only one who's sick of telling people things > like this? I think the admins should start making a list of facts > people keep screwing up and list them in the database somewhere. > For instance: > (snip) > James Redmont, who feels that getting the facts straight will allow > these discussions to be more enjoyable! CW replies: Am I the only one who thinks you are over-reacting by posting such an unpleasant message ? Ok, I forgot the order of something when I was tired late at night, and I've thanked Kathy for pointing out my mistake. For goodness sake, its a free discussion board about a series of children's books. I suggest you read a funny and perceptive post from Wiley Willowsbough (77115) on the intrinsic nature of such sites and get some perspective. I also think it would be very hard to find enough people to moderate everything that's sent to a site like this with the volume of posts that it carries, and that such draconian policing would deter people from participating. Perhaps you think that would be a good thing, but it seems to me better to encourage as many people to join in as possible, than risk encouraging a clique of contributors to develop, with the narrowness of vision that might entail. Personally, I am quite prepared to wade through, tolerate/ignore the various mistakes, repeated questions, utterly boring FILKS and interminable SHIP discussions, in the interests of turning up some novel idea from a fresh mind. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 20:40:24 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:40:24 -0000 Subject: Lockhard and CoS; WAS Why the Order didn't destroy the prophecy in OoP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77431 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote: > > Am I the only person outa here who loved CoS ?! I found G. Lockheart > very VERY funny (much more than in the movie, beyond compare dare I say ;-) ) > > AAm. -!(^_^)!- Lockhart is the character I love to hate. He is so funny, but I cringe with sympathy for Harry whenever he tried to give Harry advise. He was so delightfully wrapped up in himself, he would be impossible to deal with personally, but can you just imagine the fun students would have with him in a modern school? As for the book, it was my least favorite only because I liked the other books more, not because I disliked CoS. I'm still pondering OoP and getting ready to reread. It may be that OoP is necessary, not so much for a stand-alone story, but because it advances the entire story arc. If nothing else, Fred and George's fireworks and swamp were worth the price of admission. Ravenclaw Bookworm From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 20:46:46 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 20:46:46 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho SHIPping in book 5 (and Hermione's reaction for it -- H/H debunking) In-Reply-To: <3F3D43E9.2080107@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77432 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Przemyslaw Plaskowicki" wrote: > Hello again, > > Making R/H shipping notes during 3rd reread of OotP, I also make some > observations about Harry/Cho relationship (which, I believe hadn't been > yet discussed on this forum). > > Firstly, from my point of view, all Harry/Cho affair was inspired or > even forced by Cho. True, Harry had some romantic feelings toward her, > but he was for sure not expecting to have a full relationship with her. > He was always approached by her: in the Hogwarts Express, and during > lessons break. > The Xmas snogging was also her idea -- it was Cho who noticed mistletoe. > Also let's analyze what was said after in the common room: > >>[Harry just entered and Ron was awkwardly trying to learn what has > happened.] Hermione took matters out of his hands. 'Is it Cho?' she > asked in a businesslike way. 'Did she *corner* [emphasis mine - P.] you > after the meeting?'<< > I don't think the word 'corner' should be used when describing romantic > relationships. > > Same thing had happened during Valentines' Hogsmead weekend; obviously > Cho knew exactly why she chosen Madam Malkin's cafe: > >>[Decorations of Madam Malkin's caused that] Harry was reminded > unpleasantly of Umbridge's office. > 'Cute, isn't it?' said Cho happily. > 'Er... yeah,' said Harry untruthfully. > 'Look, she's decorated it for Valentine's Day!' said Cho, indicating a > number of golden cherubs > that were hovering over each of the small, circular tables, occasionally > throwing pink confetti > over the occupants. > 'Aaah...'<< > And later we remember Harry worrying immensely if he should kiss or hold > hands with Cho. He definitely was not prepared for relationship, and > Cho's forcing it on him made it even worse. > Catastrophe was imminent and of course had happened: > >>'You're meeting Hermione Granger? Today?'<< > > What was the reason of such jealousy? It seems that from Cho's point of > view, when boy meets girl on February 14th, he *must* do it from > romantic reasons. Does Hermione on purpose sabotaged Harry's date? I > don't think so. > > Let's again reference book 5 for Hermione inquiring Harry about his > relationship with Cho. Let's note that those inquiring are usually apropos: > >>[Trio was returning from DA's founding meeting] > 'And talking about Michael and Ginny... what about Cho and you?' > 'What d'you mean?' said Harry quickly. > [...] > 'Well,' said Hermione, smiling slightly, 'she just couldn't keep her > eyes off you, could she?'<< > More importantly is the time when Hermione is asking Harry about > Valentine's date she allegedly sabotaged: > >>Cho Chang walked into the Hall with her friend Marietta. Harry's > stomach gave an > unpleasant lurch, but she did not look over at the Gryffindor table, and > sat down with her > back to him. > 'Oh, I forgot to ask you,' said Hermione brightly, glancing over at the > Ravenclaw table, 'what > happened on your date with Cho? How come you were back so early?'<< > It was only Cho Chang's entering the Hall that made Hermione remember > that Harry indeed have a date on previous day -- yes the previous day, > that dialogue took place during Monday's dinner. This seems to be in > agreement with Hermione's remark toward Skeeter: >>'Yes, yes, one of > these days you'll write more horrible stories about Harry and me,' said > Hermione indifferently. 'Find someone who cares, why don't you?'<< > > Same thing before Gryff/Raven quidditch match: > >>'Oh, gosh, I forgot!' said Hermione, watching the eagle flapping its > wings as Luna walked > serenely past a group of cackling and pointing Slytherins. 'Cho will be > playing, won't she?' > Harry, who had not forgotten this, merely grunted.<< > > > Before I move to Xmas snogging debriefing with Ron and Hermione, I'd > like, for the sake of SHIP's equality, to quote some pieces of OotP, > which might in fact support H/H ship (remember however that I reread the > book with R/H notion in mind, so that list is for sure biased and > incomplete): > 1. Let us see what memories Harry had during first Occlumency > lessons:H&H Concession: > >>He was five, watching Dudley riding a new red bicycle, and his heart > was bursting with > jealousy... [...]he was sitting under the Sorting Hat, and it was telling > him he would do well in Slytherin... *Hermione* [emphasis mine - P.] was > lying in the hospital wing, her face > covered with thick black hair... [...] Cho Chang was drawing nearer to > him under the mistletoe...<< > > 2. The fact that when Hermione came to Grimmauld for Xmas, the first > thing she had done, was going upstairs to Harry: > >>Around six o'clock in the evening the doorbell rang and Mrs Black > started screaming again. [...] > 'I know you're in there,' said Hermione's voice. 'Will you please come > out? I want to talk to > you.'[...]So, I've come here for > Christmas.' There was snow in her hair and her face was pink with cold. > [...] Anyway,' she said briskly, > 'let's go to your bedroom, Ron's mum has lit a fire in there and she's > sent up sandwiches.' > Harry followed her back to the second floor. When he entered the > bedroom, he was rather > surprised to see both Ron and Ginny waiting for them, sitting on Ron's > bed.<< > Now I think that all those was staged. Apparently Hermione was recalled > from her vacations because Harry's withdrawal (or she was just informed > of it by Ron's letter), and after consultations with Ron and Ginny, they > decided to lure Harry for a honest talk. Let's remember that Hermione is > not a Weasley (yet! ). > > 3. Harry was helping Hermione with lessons -- with obvious results: > >>Harry agreed to test Hermione after lunch on Sunday, but regretted it > almost at once; she was very > agitated and kept snatching the book back from him to check that she had > got the answer > completely right, finally hitting him hard on the nose with the sharp > edge of Achievements in > Charming. 'Why don't you just do it yourself?' he said firmly, handing > the book back to her, his eyes watering.<< > > If you know some other quotes supporting H/H feel free to add there. > > And now, let's move for a crucial event in 5th book R/H and H/H shipping > war. Post Xmas snogging debriefing starring: Harry, Ron and Hermione: > [What they speak to each other was already analysed, I'd like to point > out non-verbal communication between (surprise!) Ron & Hermione, so I > cut almost all speech]: > >>Numbly surprised, Harry nodded. Ron sniggered, breaking off when > Hermione caught his > eye. > [...] > Ron made a triumphant gesture with his fist and went into a raucous peal > of laughter that > made several timid-looking second-years over beside the window jump. A > reluctant grin > spread over Harry's face as he watched Ron rolling around on the hearthrug. > Hermione gave Ron a look of deep disgust and returned to her letter. > [...] > Oh,' said Ron, his smile fading slightly. 'Are you that bad at kissing?' > 'Dunno,' said Harry, who hadn't considered this, and immediately felt > rather worried. 'Maybe > I am.' > 'Of course you're not,' said Hermione absently, still scribbling away at > her letter. > 'How do you know?' said Ron very sharply. > [...] > 'Ron,' said Hermione in a dignified voice, dipping the point of her > quill into her inkpot, 'you > are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.' > [...] > A slightly stunned silence greeted the end of this speech, then Ron > said, 'One person can't feel > all that at once, they'd explode.' > 'Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean > we all have,' said > Hermione nastily picking up her quill again. > [...]'<< > Points to note here: Hermione still indifferent to Harry's dating life > (see above), and Hermione's two attacks on Ron's lack of emotions. > And that's make us leaving H/H ship, and entering R/H ship which I'll > describe in another post in a moment. > > Regards, > > -- > Pshemekan Or the reason she is so kind to Harry is because she does like him and she vents her anger on Ron, who is very deserving of it sometimes. Why would she get upset over Ron's happiness for Harry's first kiss, maybe because she wanted to be Harry's first kiss. Now Hwermione is as emotional as Harry sometimes and I think she would not try to be with Harry as Ginny wants to be. Sorry if I am way off, its just my opinion. SS From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 15 20:54:45 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:54:45 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rookwood References: Message-ID: <3F3D4895.000001.47901@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 77433 ~Eloise What is also inescapable is the argument that Augustus Rookwood is Ever So Sexy (46935) falls flat on its face, once you substitute the name "Algernon". Me - Why do you say that? K From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Fri Aug 15 20:55:14 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:55:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rookwood In-Reply-To: <3F3D4895.000001.47901@monica> References: <3F3D4895.000001.47901@monica> Message-ID: <3F3D48B2.5020105@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77434 Kathryn Cawte wrote: > > > ~Eloise > > What is also inescapable is the argument that Augustus Rookwood is > Ever So Sexy (46935) falls flat on its face, once you substitute the > name "Algernon". Isn't he described in the books as having a pot marked and scared face? -- Colin's American Weblog in London [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 15 20:58:42 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:58:42 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Legislation References: Message-ID: <001801c36370$03f85840$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 77435 From: Danger Mouse How does legislation work in the WW? Is the Wizengamot responsible not only for trials but for the passing of laws? Any insights into the British system would be welcome as well. -Dan ----------------------- I'm presuming that the system would be, with the name relationship, based on the witangamot, which is very closely related to the old Norse system (both ran concurrently in different parts of England at one time). The current UK systems are based originally on the Norman law. For a working 'British, system (but definitely NOT UK!), try the Norse based parliament of the Isle of Man. The Manx parliament is over 1000 years old, and is called the Tynwald. For more info on the history and modern running, look at http://www.tynwald.org.im/. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 21:10:05 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:10:05 -0000 Subject: Ron's Development Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77436 Reading through various posts in this group, I see a lot of statements being applied to Ron that are clearly considered by many to be definitive truths about his character, i.e., that he's resentful of and/or angry about his brothers' accomplishments, his family's financial status, and his being "shunted to one side" in his friendship with Harry. Throughout the first four books of the series, we were given ample evidence to support these statements. Even the most ardent Ron fans can't dispute that. By the conclusion of OOP, however, it seemed to me that Ron had changed a great deal in ways that would combat those decidedly negative traits. He was more even-tempered (he was only briefly disappointed/irritated by Harry and Hermione missing the final Quidditch match), he was more confident (he helped win that match by giving himself a mini pep talk) and no longer seemed so concerned with money (he didn't seem remotely affronted by Harry giving his Triwizard winnings to F&G). Am I alone in thinking that Ron has had some noticeably positive development? He's far from perfect and still has a lot of maturing to do, but as I read posts that mention him (usually related to SHIPs or who'll be the "ultimate betrayer"), I can't help feeling that the changes evident in him by the end of Book 5 are being completely overlooked by many people. I don't expect everyone to simply chuck the view of Ron that they formed over the course of the first four books, but I wonder if there isn't a general reluctance to acknowledge any of the "good Ron stuff" in OOP, perhaps because it would interfere with long-held theories or beliefs about the character and where he's headed. Of course, one could argue that all of these seeming "improvements" are a fluke; that Ron will revert back to the way he was pre-OOP in the very next book. We won't know until then, but in the meantime I'll continue to contend that what we saw in Book 5 was a (slowly, to some) maturing Ron who is well on his way to coming to terms with who he is and where he fits in his family, his group of friends, and the world as a whole. A Ron who, IMO, is becoming less and less likely to envy his friends' achievements and/or turn traitor. CM From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 21:11:50 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:11:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses/now origins of AK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jedi_hermione" > > wrote: > One more thing. Has anyone notice Kadavra sounds alot like cadaver? > > Severus Snape CW: I've always thought it was a play on the conjuror's cry of 'Abracadabra' eg when pulling a rabbit out of a hat. It would be very like JKR to imply that the innocent-sounding incantation had a more sinister origin. I've searched on the site, but this topic does not seem to have come up before, or Yahoo can't find the reference.. From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 15 21:21:03 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:21:03 -0000 Subject: Rookwood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eloise_herisson" wrote: Naama: > > In GoF, Pensieve scene, Karkaroff names AUGUSTUS Rookwood who > passed > > LV information from within the Ministry. In OoP, the Daily Prophet > > announces the escape of ten DEs, among whom there is one ALGERNON > > Rookwood. > I *believe* (do we have confirmation of this?) that this is yet > another of those pesky edition differences, with the UK and UK- > derived editions having Algernon and the US one having Augustus. > > ~Eloise Me: There's an author named Algernon Blackwood. Two of his books are named "the Centaur" and "Dudley and Gilderoy" (http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/Algernon_Blackwood.htm). Makes me curious. Marika From mbush at lainc.com Fri Aug 15 21:25:24 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:25:24 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77439 Hickengruendler wrote: > I think it has something to with Dumbledore's satisfaction when he > learned that Voldemort has used Harry's blood. I don't believe any > minute, that Dumbledore is evil, therefore Voldemort must have made a > mistake there somehow. Many fans guessed, that it was because he now > has human blood in his body, which means he can die. But maybe it has > something to do with the fact, that it is partly Lily's blood. Lily's > blood is Harry's protection in Privet Drive, and now Voldemort has > part of it in his body. Maybe this has something to do with his > downfall. Of course he has the blood now for around a year, and he > seems very healthy, so there must be more to it, if my theory is > right. > > Well, not only does he have some of "Lily's" blood, he also has blood of someone (the Servant, Wormtail) who has a life debt to Harry, which probably weakens him, and he still may have that "half-life" from where he drank the Unicorn's blood... so his evilness may not be as strong as he thinks I think there is more important stuff coming regarding 1) Petunia & Lily (and perhaps James) 2) Snape 3) Neville & Family 4) Mrs Figg and of course, Dumbledore holds a lot of keys as well. Mtwelovett From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 21:39:53 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:39:53 -0000 Subject: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" > > wrote: > > > > > But the Lestranges and Crouch Jr didn't torture the Longbottoms > > until > > > after Voldemort tried to kill Harry and lost all his powers.. > > > > > > KathyK > > > > Me (Redmont): > > > > Too right. Am I the only one who's sick of telling people things > > like this? I think the admins should start making a list of facts > > people keep screwing up and list them in the database somewhere. > > For instance: > > > (snip) > > James Redmont, who feels that getting the facts straight will allow > > these discussions to be more enjoyable! > > CW replies: > > Am I the only one who thinks you are over-reacting by posting such an > unpleasant message ? Ok, I forgot the order of something when I was > tired late at night, and I've thanked Kathy for pointing out my > mistake. For goodness sake, its a free discussion board about a > series of children's books. Talisman, who, like Snape, does not have unlimited leisure time, points out: 1) JKR has said about 100 times, and it has been repeated on this list about 1000 times, that she is not writing her HP series for children. Opps again, CW. 2)Discussions, free or otherwise, are always more enjoyable and productive if people actually know what they are talking about. 3)It's a sorry state of affairs if preferring actual canon makes one an elitist. Talisman, who knows how to check her text. From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 21:46:31 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030815214631.24139.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77441 --- ghinghapuss wrote: > > > HERE HERE AND HIP HORAY, I AGREE WITH REBECCA. > I DON'T SEE WHY > > >RON WOULD BE UPSET IF HERMIONE WAS M.O.M., > GOODNESS, I THINK THAT > RON WOULD BE SHOCKED IF SHE WASN'T M.O.M. > > Possibly because Ron has pretty much been > overshadowed by either his > friends or brothers for most of his life. If > Hermione becomes > Minister of Magic it won't do any wonders for his > self-esteem. I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't think he'd have a problem with it. Sure, it's going to bother him occasionally that he often gets shunted to the side. It would bother anyone. But he does not need to outshine his wife. After all, he doesn't need to outshine his friends. If he did, he'd have picked less capable friends. After all, he'd look pretty good next to Neville (pre-OOTP). Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Fri Aug 15 21:49:37 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:49:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Correction to Harry/Cho SHIPping in book 5 (and Hermione's reaction for it -- H/H debunking) In-Reply-To: <3F3D43E9.2080107@ipartner.com.pl> References: <3F3D43E9.2080107@ipartner.com.pl> Message-ID: <3F3D5571.3060805@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 77442 Przemyslaw Plaskowicki wrote (2003-08-15 22:34): [myself] >Hello again, > > [...] > >Same thing had happened during Valentines' Hogsmead weekend; obviously >Cho knew exactly why she chosen Madam Malkin's cafe: > Of cource it is Madam Puddifoot's teashop -- Madam Malkin is selling robes. Sorry about that. -- Pshemekan From yellows at aol.com Fri Aug 15 21:50:20 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 17:50:20 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Neville's Evil Family (was Mimbulus Mimbletonia) Message-ID: <33C97F24.6FFCE43E.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77443 In a message dated 8/14/2003 10:20:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, James Redmont writes: > I just read through the whole hospital part, and when they get in the queue to find out where Mr. Weasley's room is, (p. 486 U.S. version)...well let me quote: > > A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to the front of the queue now. > "I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed. > "Ward forty-nine, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time," said the witch dismissively. "He's completely addled, you know, still thinks he's a teapot....Next!" > > Could this be Great Uncle Algie, delivering the devil's snare?? Okay, I'm going to steal back my OoP right now... *snatching it right out of my mother's hands* Right. St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. :) Yes, I see the part you mean. Now, let's flip ahead a bit... Yes, it's most likely SOMEONE delivering the Devil's Snare. But there's nothing to indicate this is Uncle Algie, unless we have some reason to believe that Uncle Algie uses a hearing trumpet. It's not even the same visit during which we run into Neville and his Gran. Here's a thought: Gran doesn't seem to care much for Neville's mom (with her strict manner regarding the bubblegum wrapper, etc.), and I assumed this was because she is Neville's paternal grandmother, and doesn't have any real love for Neville's mom. Which side of the family is Uncle Algie from? Could the father's side be baddies? :) Brief Chronicles From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Aug 15 21:54:23 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:54:23 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: References: <004b01c362cf$9b4860b0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030815235000.02454620@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 77444 At 19:51 15-08-03 +0000, goodnight_moon5 wrote: > > Jk Rowling has REPEATEDLY SAID in interviews that Harry will NOT > > end up with Hermione, I know of only one, unverified, interview where she sais so explicitly. There are, however, several interviews where she appears to say so implicitly. >Would you be willing to post either links or quotes on this? Has she >actually said that Harry "will not end up with" Hermione? It seems >to me she hasn't made too many promises for the future on *any* >character - I'd like to see the quotes... A message that appears to me to be quite thorough (it included all the passages I knew of and a few I didn't know) was posted a few months back on alt.fan.harry-potter. It can be found on google: HTH Troels From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Aug 15 21:56:42 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:56:42 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's glasses/now origins of AK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308152356.42387.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77445 Severus Snape: > One more thing. Has anyone notice Kadavra sounds alot like > cadaver? CW: > I've always thought it was a play on the conjuror's cry > of 'Abracadabra' eg when pulling a rabbit out of a hat. >From the wikkipedia: [[[The term may come from the Arabic Abra Kadabra, meaning 'let the things be destroyed' or from the Aramaic abhadda kedhabhra, meaning 'disappear like this word'. Rather than being used as a curse, the phrase is believed to have been used as a means of treating illness. Either of the original phrases may have brought into being the term Abracadabra. In common language, the word kedavra has evolved into cadaver, meaning dead body. But note also cadaver may come from Latin cadere, "to fall". ]]] & Harry Houdini used it. silmariel From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 21:54:41 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:54:41 -0000 Subject: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030815235000.02454620@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > > A message that appears to me to be quite thorough (it included all > the passages I knew of and a few I didn't know) was posted a few > months back on alt.fan.harry-potter. It can be found on google: > > > > HTH > Troels The link didn't work for me. How/where did you enter your search? Ravenclaw Bookworm From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 21:58:21 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:58:21 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and Thestrals In-Reply-To: <004401c36359$ef2319c0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77447 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Geoff > >Two possibilities. In GOF, Hagrid tells Harry that his father died > >during Hagrid's second year at Hogwarts. Did he see his father after > >his death? > > > >Additionally, in POA when Harry overheards the conversation between > >McGonagall/Fudge/Flitwick/Hagrid in the Thre Broomsticks ("The > >MArauder's Map" p.153), Hagrid says that he pulled Harry from the > >ruins of the Potter house after Voldemort's attack just after Lily > >and James were killed. Does this imply that he must have seen their > >bodies? > Ffred: > There's another reference in POA, when Hagrid is talking about his > experiences in Azkaban, he mentions that one of the worst times in his life > was his father's death. > > Sounds like a strong possibility that that was the death that Rubeus saw - I > think the Thestral ability means that you have to have seen someone _die_ > rather than someone _dead_ which is what he would have seen at Godric's > Hollow > Geoff: Thought suddenly occurred to me. One writer speculated that a person would only see a threstal after they had witnessed a death and that was why Harry could see them in Book 5. The flaw in this is that Harry didn't /see/ Cedric die. GOF p.553 ("Flesh, Blood and Bone") "And then, without warning, Harry's scar exploded with pain. It was agony such as he had never felt in all his life; his wand slipped from his fingers as he put his hands over his face; his knees buckled; he was on the ground and he could see nothing at all, his head was about to split open. >From far away, above his head, he heard a high cold voice say, "Kill the spare." A swiahing noise and a second voice, which screeched the words to the night: "Avada Kedavra!" A blast of green light blazed through Harry's eyelids, and he heard something heavy fall to the ground beside him; the pain in his scar reached such a pitch that he retched, and then it diminished; terrified of what he was about to see, he opened his stinging eyes. Cedric was lying spread-eagled on the ground beside him. He was dead." From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 21:59:31 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 14:59:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Family? Message-ID: <410-220038515215931469@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77448 Mandy wrote: > > Does anyone else out there wonder if Dumbledore has > > or had any > > family? He seems to be a wonderful man and I'd be > > surprised if he > > was not married at some point. > Nox added: "How about the Druidess Clidona, former owner of Fawkes? Dumbledore had to get that Phoenix from somewhere! Perhaps she was his wife when she was alive. Sorry, I can't remeber where the refernce to her is found..." Now me (Wendy): Here's the canon on Cliodna: She appears in the books in "The Journey From Platform Nine and Three-Quarters" chapter in PS/SS (page 78, UK paperback). She is on one of the chocolate frog cards that Harry gets: Harry "finally tore his eyes away from the druidess Cliodna, who was scratching her nose, to open a bag of Bertie Botts Every-Flavour Beans." I don't remember another mention of her in the books (someone please jump in if there is one and I've forgotten it), but we have a bit of additional information about Cliodna, which may or may not be canon (depending on how you define it): she appears on one of the American "Chocolate Frog" cards (which, btw, are completely different from the ones released in Britain. Not even remotely similar). The card reads: "Cliodne [yes, it's spelled differently on the card than in the text of the book] Bird Animagus The beautiful druid Cliodne had three magical birds that sang the sick to sleep and cured them. Legends say that she could take the shape of a sea bird or change into a wave. Her favourite hobby was flying." As to whether or not the chocolate frog cards are to be believed, according to Lexicon Steve, Rowling did approve of their content, so I think it's not unreasonable to consider them canonical, unless there is a conflict with the text of one of the actual books. :-) Wendy From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 22:04:03 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:04:03 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77449 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > > > > This actually goes back to my original observation, that > > Dumbledore said he was trying "to get people to call LV by his "proper name: Voldemort." Why make such a point of saying > > Voldemort was his "proper name" in the beginning? > > > Dmbledore said that in the very 1st book. It would have given away > the secret of the diary in CoS if he used Riddle's real name. > > aussie Maybe I'm being picky about the semantics (ignoring the all posts discussing the word "either" ) but why would JKR have DD calling it his "proper name" instead of just his "name?" Obviously she wouldn't want to give away the key to CoS, but phrasing struck me as unusual in light of all he has said about the power of names, etc. Add to that the fact that DD knows it isn't his "proper" name, just a stage name, if you will. Ravenclaw Bookworm From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 22:06:42 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:06:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything? In-Reply-To: <20030815214631.24139.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030815214631.24139.qmail@web20005.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <19922047832.20030815150642@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77450 Hi, Friday, August 15, 2003, 2:46:31 PM, Rebecca wrote: > I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't > think he'd have a problem with it. Sure, it's going > to bother him occasionally that he often gets shunted > to the side. It would bother anyone. I agree. The other characters have their problems, too. Ron *occasionally* gets upset at the money issue, or feels bad about being shunted to the side, but it's not as if he constantly stews about this. He also has never done anything underhanded to change this. When angry with Harry, he didn't talk to him, but he also didn't stab him in the back in any way. He doesn't try and get other people to spread some of their wealth to him, in fact he doesn't want this at all. No sign of him being easily bribed. He wouldn't do harm for money. Ron seems to admire Hermione's abilities, and doesn't appear jealous or insecure about his own magical abilities in any way (as far as we learn about this from Harry's POV). I find this overly negative image I sometimes read about completely overblown. And I still doubt very much Hermione would be a good choice for MoM. She doesn't have nearly enough people skills to be effective. At the end of the first month, she'd have offended just about everyone with her manner (unless she completely changes in later years). -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 22:06:57 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:06:57 -0000 Subject: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) In-Reply-To: <410-22003851519948176@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77451 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" wrote: > > > Now me (Wendy): > > I'm with James on this one. I see your point Geoff, but the fact is that we > have rules on this list, and lately, IMHO, there are lots and lots of > posters who haven't been following them. I know there are TONS of new > people on this list in the past couple of months, and that they need a bit > of time to get up to speed with how the list works. But when I joined, I > made a point of carefully reading through all the posting guidelines and > following them to the best of my ability, and I don't think it's too much > to expect for others to do the same. In my own case, I went back and read > some of the things that had been posted in the past, and I lurked for a > while before posting, so I could get a feel for the tone of the discussions > on the board. I'm not suggesting everyone else should do this, but I do > think that it's not too much to expect for someone to do a bit of research > of their own before submitting something to the list. Of course discussion > topics are going to come up again and again here. That's part of the fun. > But I get really annoyed to read a first time poster starting out with, "I > haven't seen this discussed on the list. I joined yesterday," and then > continue on with a post about something that had been discussed in depth > the week before (sometimes, literally, even the day before). There is a > search function on the message board, and no matter how much we joke about > Yahoomort, I've always had pretty good luck searching. It's at least worth > a try. Geoff: And then you get a situation such as I had three days ago when I used the search function to backtrack a thread and then found after a great deal of digging around that it had changed its thread title at least twice prior to that which made following the thread back to its origin rather difficult....... From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Fri Aug 15 22:10:26 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:10:26 -0000 Subject: Death clues In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: **BIGSNIP** > Maybe JKR has spoken to a few aussies. "Day" and "Dai" always sounds > like "Die" with our accent ... lol > > aussie / Norbert's Mummy Me - AmanitaMuscaria : Hey, Hagrid - Dai is a Welsh name, pronounced 'die', not 'day'. Cheers. From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 22:12:02 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:12:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77453 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jedi_hermione" > > wrote: > > > > > JKR said this at Quickquotes > > > > > > > > ... outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus > his > > > glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his > > > vulnerability?" > > > > Well, we can associate glasses with eye, and the association with > > eyes has always been to Harry having his mother's eyes, and for > > some reason, we have always associated that with a strength or > > perhaps a tool/weapon. The above could now imply that having > > Lily's eyes is not a strength but a weakness. > > > > But then who knows. > > > > bboy_mn > Severus Snape: > Another idea just struck me, Lily could not bear to "see" her son > Harry die, so she sacrificed herself to spare him. LV said she > didn't have to die. HMMMM? So what if Harry has the same intense > amount of love for his friends (his only family in his eyes) that, > in seeing one of them about to be AK'ed by LV, he does the same > thing? LV askes him to join him instead, but Harry refuses and > sacrifices his life for his friends instead? Passing the protection > to someone new, so now LV is no longer protected from it by Harry's > blood? Just a thought. > > One more thing. Has anyone notice Kadavra sounds alot like cadaver? > Geoff: I hadn't. I tend to associate it more with "Abracadabra". Also "cadaver" is not a word which is used much in the UK. It's more of an American word. We stick to the more genteel "corpse". :-) From eberte at vaeye.com Fri Aug 15 22:17:28 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:17:28 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77454 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > Since this is a reply to my post, I'd like to point out that I > didn't start this question of HP's status among the classics. I was > responding to an earlier post, which rather provocatively claimed > that Rowling was a better writer than Tolkien, Austen or Lewis. I > said she wasn't, and will not be considered their equal in the > future. Furthermore, I think Rowling herself would laugh if someone > made such a claim to her. She seems like a smart, sensible woman, > and has every right to be proud of what she's accomplished. But > being sensible, she'd probably admit that she's not in the same > league with those writers, and it's foolish to claim that she is. Me: Whoa! Wanda, I think that you were responding to *my* earlier post (although the question of HP's status among the classics was brought up by someone else.) To clarify, I never said that JKR is a *better* writer than Jane Austen. I believe that I said that some of her best parts are as cleverly written as Jane Austen's books. As far as Tolkien and Lewis, I *do* happen to think that she is in the same league as those two. I love the work of all three of them but definitely can find stylistic flaws in the writing of all of them (if I care to look.) And I politely point out that your opinion that Tolkien and Lewis are head-and-shoulders above JKR in terms of their writing skills is merely *your opinion*. I find it presumptuous of you to state that JKR would be on your side in this debate. Finally, referring to the opinions of others as "foolish" sounds rather dogmatic and could crush the little feelings (of one less self- confident than I.) That said, I enjoy reading your posts Wanda. They are thoughtfully written. Elle From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 22:18:26 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 15:18:26 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: what is "the heart of it all"? Message-ID: <410-220038515221826881@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77455 > sebfish5 wrote: > 1) What do you think this heart is, if you are that much of a god > but, more likely > 2) What, or who, do you think this "heart" revolves around? > Hickengruendler added: "I think it has something to with Dumbledore's satisfaction when he learned that Voldemort has used Harry's blood. I don't believe any minute, that Dumbledore is evil, therefore Voldemort must have made a mistake there somehow. Many fans guessed, that it was because he now has human blood in his body, which means he can die. But maybe it has something to do with the fact, that it is partly Lily's blood. Lily's blood is Harry's protection in Privet Drive, and now Voldemort has part of it in his body. Maybe this has something to do with his downfall. Of course he has the blood now for around a year, and he seems very healthy, so there must be more to it, if my theory is right." Now me (Wendy): A while back I heard a great theory to explain this (sorry, I can't for the life of me remember who came up with it first). The gleam *was* because of the blood. Harry is protected by something in his blood, and now that blood also flows in Voldemort's veins. HOWEVER, part of Harry's protection is reliant upon Harry returning to his "home" once a year, more specifically to Privet Drive where his blood relatives live (Petunia and perhaps even Dudley being essential to this protection). So, for the first year after Voldemort's resurrection, they were both protected. But once that year has elapsed, Harry will continue to be protected because he'll return to Privet Drive, thus renewing the protection. But the protection in Voldemort's blood will "expire" because he won't have returned to Privet Drive (and, most likely, it wouldn't work even if he did go to Privet Drive, as he is not "family" to Petunia. Not as far as we know, anyhow). There. I think I've explained it properly. Don't know if it'll prove to be true in the end, but it's the theory I like best, so far. Wendy From yellows at aol.com Fri Aug 15 22:21:25 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:21:25 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort vs. Riddle Message-ID: <39B6D72E.77D2CFB7.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77456 In a message dated 8/15/2003 6:04:03 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Ravenclaw Bookworm writes: > Maybe I'm being picky about the semantics (ignoring the all posts discussing the word "either" ) but why would JKR have DD calling it his "proper name" instead of just his "name?" Obviously she wouldn't want to give away the key to CoS, but phrasing struck me as unusual in light of all he has said about the power of names, etc. > Add to that the fact that DD knows it isn't his "proper" name, just a stage name, if you will. I think that Voldemort *is* Lord ... Thingy's proper name now, as far as DD's concerned. On Page 824 of OoP, American hardback, DD says, "Harry, suffering like this proves you are still a man! This pain is part of being human --" DD evidently sees this as something that should make Harry glad; Harry should rejoice that he is still human. Does this mean that Harry is ever in danger of *not* being human? I think so. The closer Harry and LV get, the less human Harry may become. This, I believe, is because LV himself is no longer human. When he became Voldemort, he renounced his previous life, perhaps even underwent a physical change, and Tom Riddle died, or was hidden away. Lord Voldemort was born in his place. When DD fought Voldemort in the MoM (YAY!), he tried to appeal to the human side of LV, Tom Riddle, if he's still in there. That would allow LV to feel pain and love and suffering, and might make him human -- vulnerable -- again. Back to GoF, the much-discussed gleam of triumph in DD's eyes could likely be about this same thing. What if Harry's blood has awakened Tom Riddle within LV? During the MoM battle in OoP, DD tried to call upon this human side that he knows must be hiding in LV. That's why DD called him Tom for the first time in many years. Hoping this made some sense... :) Brief Chronicles From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 22:22:10 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:22:10 -0000 Subject: Ron's Development In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77457 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: > Reading through various posts in this group, I see a lot of > statements being applied to Ron that are clearly considered by many to be definitive truths about his character, i.e., that he's > resentful of and/or angry about his brothers' accomplishments, his > family's financial status, and his being "shunted to one side" in his friendship with Harry. > By the conclusion of OOP, however, it seemed to me that Ron had > changed a great deal in ways that would combat those decidedly > negative traits. He was more even-tempered (he was only briefly > disappointed/irritated by Harry and Hermione missing the final > Quidditch match), he was more confident (he helped win that match by giving himself a mini pep talk) and no longer seemed so concerned > with money (he didn't seem remotely affronted by Harry giving his > Triwizard winnings to F&G). > > Am I alone in thinking that Ron has had some noticeably positive > development? > We won't know until then, but in the meantime > I'll continue to contend that what we saw in Book 5 was a (slowly, to some) maturing Ron who is well on his way to coming to terms with who he is and where he fits in his family, his group of friends, and the world as a whole. A Ron who, IMO, is becoming less and less likely to envy his friends' achievements and/or turn traitor. > > CM I agree that Ron has grown up alot. Even before though, his comments struck me as "family" griping, but if anyone else made the same kind of comments he would get upset. Most of the griping was done to a member of his family or to Harry and in a private setting - definately not in public. My impression is that even Hermione didn't hear as much of it. Example, I might complain about my kids not doing chores, homework, etc. to family or friends (especially those who have kids the same age), but never to people I don't know well. Short of an imperious curse, I will be shocked if Ron turns traitor. IMO it's not in his character. Friendship is so important to Harry that traitor!Ron would be such a betrayal. I just don't see JKR going that direction. Ravenclaw Bookworm From MagRig13 at aol.com Fri Aug 15 22:26:18 2003 From: MagRig13 at aol.com (american_pie8887) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:26:18 -0000 Subject: Rookwood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77458 "Naama" wrote: I was pretty annoyed by this, don't know if it's been discussed > before (searched the archive and found nothing): > > In GoF, Pensieve scene, Karkaroff names AUGUSTUS Rookwood who passed > LV information from within the Ministry. In OoP, the Daily Prophet > announces the escape of ten DEs, among whom there is one ALGERNON > Rookwood. > > I've checked and double-checked, and I can't see how they can be two > different people- in GoF, when Karkaroff rats on Rookwood I remember > Crouch Sr. saying: "Augustus Rookwood, from the Department of > Mysteries?" and Karkaroff answering -"The very same". And the caption > for Rookwood's picture in the Prophet says he betrayed Ministry > secrets to LV. Besides, the fact that Karkaroff says "Rookwood" and > Crouch automatically replies "Augustus Rookwood" implies, to me at > least, that there was only one Rookwood in the Ministry of Magic at > the time. > > Any thoughts? > > > --Naama, the petty-details obssessed. > What kind of a name is Algernon anyway?! :-\ Mags~~I dont know if this helps but i once read a short story called "Flowers for Algernon." anyone read it? Algernon was a mouse who's i.q. was raised traumatically from these test pills and once he hit the "peak" of his intelligence, his mind slowly deteriorated until his death. I just thought i'd put that in there. oh and i took the whole Crouch saying "Augustus Rookwood?" as meaning there might be another person b/c if Karkaroff had just said Rookwood,wouldn't he have known exactly who it was? ~~Mags From yellows at aol.com Fri Aug 15 22:45:01 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:45:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's glasses. Message-ID: <40E41CA2.516F9A1B.001B530F@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77459 In a message dated 8/15/2003 6:12:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 writes: > Geoff: > I hadn't. I tend to associate it more with "Abracadabra". > Also "cadaver" is not a word which is used much in the UK. > It's more of an American word. We stick to the more genteel "corpse". > :-) Well, I don't know what Americans you know, but I'm from the US, and we don't walk around saying "Cadaver, cadaver, cadaver." We usually just say "Dead body." Or "Corpse." But cadaver *is* a word for dead body, and I think JKR must have used this in her alteration of "Abracadabra" to create her meaning. Brief Chronicles From rredordead at aol.com Fri Aug 15 22:46:37 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:46:37 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77460 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > > > (And now I'm going to do something I don't normally do...I > usually > > > like to pinpoint my facts *before* speculating, but isn't there a > > > known deatheater who has a name that could be shortened to > Algie? > > > If anyone can find it, please post it.) > > > > > > James "Evil!Gran/Algie" Redmont > > > > You probably think of Algernon Rookwood. See message 77087 > > > > Marika > > No it was Augustus Rookwood. According to the Lexicon and they're > very reliable. But there are many DE's whose first names we don't > know yet. > > Mandy Mandy again: It seems as if there is both an Augustus and an Algernon Rookwood. Brothers? Or, as another post has suggested, another pesky US vs UK edition change? Can anyone help? Thanks From jmmears at comcast.net Fri Aug 15 22:55:57 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:55:57 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron (was Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditch match, anything?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77461 > Mandy: > > I don't think either of us is saying that a man supporting a womam > > who is in power is a problem. I know I'm not at all, although I > > can't honestly speak for AAm. I just don't believe it is something > > Ron Weasley is capable of. But the are many more Wizards and > Muggle > > men in the sea and I trust Hermione to pick a good one who will > > support her great ambitions. Aam replied: > You're right Mandy and, again, I must say that I completely agree > with you. Rebecca, neither me nor - as far as I can judge (but it's > impossible for me to speak for her) Mandy - meant to be offensive. I > don't believe that a man supporting a woman who is successful in > whatever she does is or should be a problem for anyone. Unfortunately > it is sometimes what happens for some men cannot stand such a > situation, and I suspect Ron being one of them because, as we have > seen in PS when he, following Harry, looks into the mirror, his > dreams are those of a person who seeks personnal success (being > prefect, a great Quidditch player, etc.), perhaps even to the > detriment of other people (remember his attitude towards Harry in > GoF ?) . We can understand that he somehow seeks revenge because he > was living in the shadow of his brothers. But does that mean that he > will be able to support his wife if HE is not as successful as she > is ? A least this seems doubtful for me. This is all I meant. > Fortunately I'm just talking about Ron, not men and women in > general ;-) Now me: Well, now *I'm* offended! If there's anything at all in canon that suggests that Ron "can't stand" Hermione's academic achievements, I must have missed it, so I'd appreciate an example (and not just examples of his teasing remarks, which no one including Hermione takes seriously). Is it really a sign of pathological insecurity for an 11 year old boy to wish for personal success at school when all his older brothers have distinguished themselves in various ways? I'd find it much more disturbing if he didn't have any dreams and ambitions. As for his rift with Harry in GoF ::sighs::, where does it indicate that he wants success to Harry's detriment? He's upset with Harry because he (wrongly) believes that Harry has put his name in the goblet without telling Ron in advance how he plans to do it, and then refuses to admit that he did so. No where does it suggest that Ron thinks that he should be champion instead of Harry. And where are the examples of his seeking revenge toward Harry? Does he join the Slytherns in making fun of him? No. Does he wear a "Potter Stinks" badge? No. Does he short-sheet Harry's bed? No. He doesn't even really refuse to speak to him. Where's this idea of his seeking revenge coming from? I think that Ron would be just as supportive of any future achievements of Hermione's as anyone else, maybe more so since he so plainly expresses admiration for her current ones throughout all the books. As for the assumption that Hermione is destined to be MoM, I sincerely doubt that is likely unless the office is automatically awarded to the witch or wizard with the most NEWTS. Her people skills and political instincts are not nearly as well developed as her intellect. Frankly, I can see Ron being MoM more easily than I can see Hermione in that position, but it's purely speculative. Jo Serenadust, back on the job From rredordead at aol.com Fri Aug 15 23:00:24 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:00:24 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77462 Is any one else out there tired of the differences in the UK and US editions, merchandising, movies etc. etc. etc?? Can't we all write or email Scholastic and Warner Bros., and tell them to stop changing the details? I have heard JKR has to approve all the changes when it comes to the books but it sure makes our life more complicated when it comes to analyzing every single detail. Now I hear the Chocolate Frog Cards are different! I know the Every Flavor Beans are different. What next? Mandy, who is somewhat frustrated and can't keep up with it all.... From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 15 23:02:25 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:02:25 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: <410-220038515221826881@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77463 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" wrote: > > A while back I heard a great theory to explain this (sorry, I can't for the > life of me remember who came up with it first). The gleam *was* because of > the blood. Harry is protected by something in his blood, and now that blood > also flows in Voldemort's veins. HOWEVER, part of Harry's protection is > reliant upon Harry returning to his "home" once a year, more specifically > to Privet Drive where his blood relatives live (Petunia and perhaps even > Dudley being essential to this protection). So, for the first year after > Voldemort's resurrection, they were both protected. But once that year has > elapsed, Harry will continue to be protected because he'll return to Privet > Drive, thus renewing the protection. But the protection in Voldemort's > blood will "expire" because he won't have returned to Privet Drive (and, > most likely, it wouldn't work even if he did go to Privet Drive, as he is > not "family" to Petunia. Not as far as we know, anyhow). There. I think > I've explained it properly. Don't know if it'll prove to be true in the > end, but it's the theory I like best, so far. I think that the reason is quite different - and simpler. Harry's protection stems from the love of his mother and her sacrifice. His protection at the Dursleys is still based on that same love (his relatives do not love him, but were willing to take him in to protect him). Harry's greatest power (according to DD) is his humanity (specifically his ability to love). Voldemort took Harry's blood but he is completely devoid of humane feelings, especially love. In fact, that power was how he was forced off when he possessed Harry at the end of OoP. If the protection Harry has is based on love, it will not protect Voldemort in the same way, of at all. If Voldemort is relying on that to save him then he is bound to be disappointed... Salit From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Fri Aug 15 23:17:35 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:17:35 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's Development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F3D6A0F.4010307@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 77464 scoutmom21113 wrote (2003-08-16 00:22): >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: > > >I agree that Ron has grown up alot. > > Yup. Just two OotP quotes: 1. >>[Ron was] sweeping his hair back quite unnecessarily so that it looked interestingly windswept and glancing around to see whether the people nearest to them -- a bunch of gossiping third-year Hufflepuffs -- had heard him.[...] 'Why are you grinning?' 'I'm not,' said Harry quickly, and looked down at his Transfiguration notes, attempting to straighten his face. The truth was that Ron had just reminded Harry forcibly of another Gryffindor Quidditch player who had once sat rumpling his hair under this very tree. [...] 'Well, you're just going to have to break your promise, that's all,' said Ron firmly. [...] 'I know, it's just that - we promised,' said Hermione in a small voice. Ron smoothed his hair flat again, looking preoccupied. 'Well,' he sighed, 'Hagrid hasn't been sacked yet, has he? He's hung on this long, maybe he'll hang on till the end of term and we won't have to go near Grawp at all.'<< Here we see Ron in a similar situation as James, but contrary to James he instantly came back to his usual responsibility (and flattened his hair). 2. Ron was also behaving most mature when his father was attacked -- he was the only one who didn't argue with Sirius about immediatelly going to St. Mungo's. Note that he hid his face during that time. Regards, -- Pshemekan From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 15 23:22:53 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:22:53 -0000 Subject: Harry Potter: a great representation of our time? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellejir" wrote: to claim that she is. > > Me: > Whoa! Wanda, I think that you were responding to *my* earlier post > (although the question of HP's status among the classics was brought > up by someone else.) To clarify, I never said that JKR is a *better* > writer than Jane Austen. I believe that I said that some of her best > parts are as cleverly written as Jane Austen's books. As far as > Tolkien and Lewis, I *do* happen to think that she is in the same > league as those two. I love the work of all three of them but > definitely can find stylistic flaws in the writing of all of them (if > I care to look.) Well, okay, I went back and looked at your post, and you're right, I did overstate your argument - I'm sorry. My only excuse is that it's hot as Hades here, because we've been without electricity for going on a day and a half PLUS we're in a heat wave! I used a little return of electricity in the afternoon to look at the board again (and found about 300 new posts since my computer had gone down!) but I think I was a little too hot and un-airconditioned to make a really sensible reply. I should have waited until I was cooler and less tired. Sorry again. Wanda From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Fri Aug 15 23:33:42 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:33:42 +0200 Subject: Ron & Hermione relationSHIP development (in book 5) Message-ID: <3F3D6DD6.1070104@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 77466 Hi, it's me again ;-) Having already discussed Ron's progress in magic skills, and Harry's catastrophic love life, I'll try in this post describe progress in Ron/Hermione relationship. While there was little progress in pair's romance, their friendship, I believe, reached unprecedented heights. First thing I'd like to point out is that in OotP their bickering almost totally diminished. It is unbelievably, but true! During two first days they argued twice: 1. After Tornadoes bashing: >>She walked away. Hermione waited until Cho was halfway across the courtyard before rounding on Ron. 'You are so tactless!' 'What? I only asked her if -' 'Couldn't you tell she wanted to talk to Harry on her own?' 'So? She could've done, I wasn't stopping -' 'Why on earth were you attacking her about her Quidditch team?' 'Attacking? I wasn't attacking her, I was only -' 'Who cares if she supports the Tornadoes?' 'Oh, come on, half the people you see wearing those badges only bought them last season -' 'But what does it matter!' 'It means they're not real fans, they're just jumping on the bandwagon -' That's the bell,' said Harry dully, because Ron and Hermione were bickering too loudly to hear it. They did not stop arguing all the way down to Snape's dungeon, which gave Harry plenty of time to reflect that between Neville and Ron he would be lucky ever to have two minutes of conversation with Cho that he could look back on without wanting to leave the country.<< 2. Later they argued about Snape creditability, which caused: >>'Oh, shut up, the pair of you,' said Harry heavily, as Ron opened his mouth to argue back. Hermione and Ron both froze, looking angry and offended. 'Can't you give it a rest?' said Harry. 'You're always having a go at each other, it's driving me mad.'<<[...] As a result Ron later said: >>Hermione and me have stopped arguing,'<<; 3. On that day they have last serious argument in the book: >>'Yes, but to employ someone who's actually refusing to let us do magic! What's Dumbledore playing at?' 'And she's trying to get people to spy for her,' said Ron darkly. 'Remember when she said she wanted us to come and tell her if we hear anyone saying You- Know-Who's back?' 'Of course she's here to spy on us all, that's obvious, why else would Fudge have wanted her to come?' snapped Hermione. 'Don't start arguing again,' said Harry wearily, as Ron opened his mouth to retaliate. 'Can't we just... let's just do that homework, get it out of the way...'<< Correct me if I am wrong (with quotes!), but I found out that from that day, they were no more arguing. If one of them have different opinion than the other, they just exchange them without immersing themselves in pointless bickering: like here: 1. >>Hermione kept showing signs of wanting to talk about Sirius, but Ron tended to make hushing noises every time she mentioned his name.<< or there: 2. >>Ron seemed determined to give neither his opinion nor his advice; he would not look at Harry, though when Hermione opened her mouth to try dissuading Harry some more, he said in a low voice, 'Give it a rest, OK? He can make up his own mind.'<< Another change in Ron's behaviour during book 5 is the fact, that he was complimenting Hermione: 1. >>'Someone must have blabbed to her!' Ron said angrily. 'They can't have done,' said Hermione in a low voice. 'You're so naive,' said Ron, 'you think just because you're all honourable and trustworthy - '<< 2. >>'Hermione, you are honestly the most wonderful person I've ever met,' said Ron weakly, 'and if I'm ever rude to you again - '<< 3. >>'You don't even try to listen to him, do you?' 'We do try,' said Ron. 'We just haven't got your brains or your memory or your concentration - you're just cleverer than we are - is it nice to rub it in?' 'Oh, don't give me that rubbish,' said Hermione, but she looked slightly mollified as she led the way out into the damp courtyard.<< 4. >>Hermione, who seemed determined to be in a towering temper, and she swept off towards the girls' dormitories, banging the door behind her. 'Such a lovely, sweet-tempered girl,' said Ron, very quietly [I know that wasn't exactly a compliment, but still...],<< And another change in Ron's behaviour is the fact, that he actually was supporting (sort of -- he was no more negative) toward Hermione's SPEW. (I know how it sounds, but it's true -- see below). 1. Let's observe what Ron did when Hermione planted her knitted 'bladders': >>[Hermione:] 'Don't you dare touch those hats, Ron!' She turned on her heel and left. Ron waited until she had disappeared through the door to the girls' dormitories, then cleared the rubbish off the woolly hats. 'They should at least see what they're picking up,' he said firmly. '<< 2. Perhaps it was Xmas atmosphere, but when Hermione was caring her present to Kreacher, Ron doesn't say anything negative -- pre-5th-book Ron would surely said something. He even actively helped Hermione: >>"So, is this Kreacher's bedroom?' said Ron, strolling over to a dingy door in the corner opposite the pantry. Harry had never seen it open. 'Yes,' said Hermione, now sounding a little nervous. 'Er... I think we'd better knock.' Ron rapped on the door with his knuckles but there was no reply. 'He must be sneaking around upstairs,' he said, and without further ado pulled open the door.<< [All Ron's, rather weak, rants about SPEW took place before leaving to Hogwarts] On the other hand it appears that Hermione started being interested in Quidditch (or at least in certain keeper's progress). 1. Ron was accepted: >>Harry moved over to sit next to Hermione, who awoke with a jerk as he put down his bag. 'Oh, Harry, it's you . . . good about Ron, isn't it?' she said blearily. << 2. First practice: >>'How was practice?' asked Hermione rather coolly half an hour later, as Harry and Ron climbed through the portrait hole into the Gryffindor common room. 'It was -' Harry began. 'Completely lousy,' said Ron in a hollow voice, sinking into a chair beside Hermione. She looked up at Ron and her frostiness seemed to melt. 'Well, it was only your first one,' she said consolingly, 'it's bound to take time to -' 'Who said it was me who made it lousy?' snapped Ron. 'No one,' said Hermione, looking taken aback, 'I thought -' 'You thought I was bound to be rubbish?' 'No, of course I didn't! Look, you said it was lousy so 1 just -' 'I'm going to get started on some homework,' said Ron angrily and stomped off to the staircase to the boys' dormitories and vanished from sight. Hermione turned to Harry. 'Was he lousy?' 'No,' said Harry loyally. Hermione raised her eyebrows. 'Well, I suppose he could've played better,' Harry muttered, 'but it was only the first training session, like you said...'<< 3. After first match: >>'Have you seen Ron?' Hermione asked in a low voice. Harry shook his head. 'I think he's avoiding us,' said Hermione. 'Where do you think he-?' But at that precise moment, there was a creaking sound behind them as the Fat Lady swung forwards and Ron came clambering through the portrait hole. He was very pale indeed and there was snow in his hair. When he saw Harry and Hermione, he stopped dead in his tracks. 'Where have you been?' said Hermione anxiously, springing up. 'Walking,' Ron mumbled. He was still wearing his Quidditch things. 'You look frozen,' said Hermione. 'Come and sit down!'<< 3. The Monday after Valentine's (Ginny and Ron returned from Quidditch practice): >>'Has Ron saved a goal yet?' asked Hermione, peering over the top of Magical Hieroglyphs and Logograms.[...]<< 4. Some time during spring: >>[There is a discussion about merits of Quidditch] 'Well, it does!' she [Hermione] said impatiently. 'It's only a game, isn't it?' 'Hermione,' said Harry, shaking his head, 'you're good on feelings and stuff, but you just don't understand about Quidditch.' 'Maybe not,' she said darkly, returning to her translation, 'but at least my happiness doesn't depend on Ron's goalkeeping ability.'<< [I think however that it does, if it doesn't why she said so *darkly*?] 5. Before last match: >>'You know,' said Hermione, as she and Harry walked down to the pitch a little later in the midst of a very excitable crowd, 'I think Ron might do better without Fred and George around. They never exactly gave him a lot of confidence.'<< 6. And after last match: >>'Weasley is our King, Weasley is our King, He didn't let the Quaffle in, Weasley is our King..." 'And I wish they'd stop singing that stupid song,' said Hermione miserably, 'haven't they gloated enough?'<< 7. Easter: >>Ron had been startled to discover there were only six weeks left until their exams. 'How can that come as a shock?' Hermione demanded, as she tapped each little square on Ron's timetable with her wand so that it flashed a different colour according to its subject. 'I dunno,' said Ron, 'there's been a lot going on.' 'Well, there you are,' she said, handing him his timetable, 'if you follow that you should do fine.' Ron looked down it gloomily, but then brightened. 'You've given me an evening off every week!' That's for Quidditch practice,' said Hermione.<< Let's quote another examples of R&H friendship. Ron caring for Hermione and vice-versa: 0. Obligatory mention of Ron defending Hermione: >>Oh yeah, I forgot, you're a Mudblood, Granger, so ten off for that.' Ron pulled out his wand, but Hermione pushed it away, whispering, 'Don't!'<< 1. Hermione at OWLs: [The day before]>>Ron was just telling her that she ought to eat a decent meal or she would not sleep that night, [...]<< [Day one]>>'She'll be fine, remember she got a hundred and twelve per cent on one of our Charms tests?' said Ron.<< >>On Friday, Harry and Ron had a day off while Hermione sat her Ancient Runes exam, [...] - when the portrait hole opened and Hermione clambered in, looking thoroughly bad-tempered. 'How were the Runes?' said Ron, yawning and stretching. 'I mis-translated ehwaz,' said Hermione furiously. 'It means partnership, not defence; I mixed it up with eihwaz.' 'Ah well,' said Ron lazily, 'that's only one mistake, isn't it, you'll still get -' 'Oh, shut up!' said Hermione angrily. 'It could be the one mistake that makes the difference between a pass and a fail. [...]<< >>'Well, I think I've done all right in Arithmancy' she said, and Harry and Ron both sighed with relief.<< 2. Hermione consoling Ron, after he learned that H&H didn't saw last match >>Well, actually... no, Ron,' said Hermione with a heavy sigh, putting down her book and looking at him apologetically. 'As a matter of fact, the only bit of the match Harry and I saw was Davies's first goal.' Ron's carefully ruffled hair seemed to wilt with disappointment. 'You didn't watch?' he said faintly, looking from one to the other. 'You didn't see me make any of those saves?' 'Well - no,' said Hermione, stretching out a placatory hand towards him. 'But Ron, we didn't want to leave -- we had to!'<< 3. Ron just received a letter from Percy: >>Hermione was looking at Ron with an odd expression on her face. 'Oh, give them here,' she said abruptly.<< 4. Ron is worrying about F&G: >>'If you want to worry about anyone, Hermione, worry about me!' 'You?' she said, [...]. 'Why should I be worried about you?' 'When Mum's next letter finally gets through Umbridge's screening process,' said Ron bitterly, [...] 'I'm going to be in deep trouble. I wouldn't be surprised if she's sent another Howler.' But -' 'It'll be my fault Fred and George left, you wait,' said Ron darkly. 'She'll say I should've stopped them leaving, I should've grabbed the ends of their brooms and hung on or something... yeah, it'll be all my fault.' 'Well, if she does say that it'll be very unfair, you couldn't have done anything! But I'm sure she won't, I mean, if it's really true they've got premises in Diagon Alley, they must have been planning this for ages.'<< Hermione & Ron cooperating for common goal: 1. Convincing Harry to teach DA: >>'Awful. You know, I was just saying to Ron when you came in . . . we've got to do something about her.' 'I suggested poison,' said Ron grimly.<< [...] >>Then he turned to Ron, ready to exchange the exasperated looks they sometimes shared when Hermione elaborated on far-fetched schemes like SPEW. To Harry's consternation, however, Ron did not look exasperated. He was frowning slightly, apparently thinking. Then he said, 'That's an idea.'<< 2. For Harry's welfare: >>'You can't tell me you've stopped having funny dreams,' Hermione said now, 'because Ron told me you were muttering in your sleep again last night.' Harry threw Ron a furious look. Ron had the grace to look ashamed of himself.<< They spend time together without Harry: 1 . Harry just returned from Xmas snogging: >>He returned to the common room half an hour later to find Hermione and Ron in the best seats by the fire; nearly everybody else had gone to bed. Hermione was writing a very long letter; she had already filled half a roll of parchment, which was dangling from the edge of the table. Ron was lying on the hearthrug, trying to finish his Transfiguration homework.<< 2 After potions: >>When at long last the bell rang, Harry was first out of the dungeon and had already started his lunch by the time Ron and Hermione joined him in the Great Hall.<< 3 detention with Dolores: >>He expected the common room to be empty when he returned, but Ron and Hermione had sat up waiting for him.<< 4. After Occlumency: >>Harry found Ron and Hermione in the library, where they were working on Umbridge's most recent ream of homework. (...) When he sat down opposite Ron and Hermione,(...)<< 5. Leaving feast. 6. DA meetings (they were a pair here) 7. Various prefects duties. Above, I have shown examples of mature friendship between Ron & Hermione. Kindly note Ron's development & Hermione softening: 'I think I'm feeling a bit...rebellious.' (see also parallel thread named: /Ron's/ /development/) And what about romance between them? Well there is still no definite proofs, I'll just enumerate clues from book 5: 0. "Good Luck" kiss! 1. Ron gave Hermione perfumes for Xmas, 2. Whenever emerges topic of Harry's dating Cho, Hermione makes some comments about Ron: >>Ron,' said Hermione in a dignified voice, dipping the point of her quill into her inkpot, 'you are the most insensitive wart I have ever had the misfortune to meet.'<< >>'Just because you've got the emotional range of a teaspoon doesn't mean we all have,' said Hermione nastily picking up her quill again.<< >>'Harry you're worse than Ron... well, no, you're not,' she sighed, as Ron himself came stumping into the Hall[...]<< 3. Arthur & Molly comparison: >>'What do you think about this?' Hermione demanded of Ron, and Harry was reminded irresistibly of Mrs Weasley appealing to her husband during Harry's first dinner in Grimmauld Place. 'I dunno,' said Ron, looking alarmed at being asked to give an opinion. 'If Harry wants to do it, it's up to him, isn't it?'<< 4. Ron is still jealous about Krum. R & H miscellany: 1. >>'Dragon claw does work!' said Ron. 'It's supposed to be incredible, really gives your brain a boost, you come over all cunning for a few hours - Hermione, let me have a pinch, go on, it can't hurt -'<< [It's like Arthur is asking Molly isn't it?] 2. >>'Hermione,' said Ron in a low and indignant voice, 'are you going to stop telling Harry off and listen to Binns, or am I going to have to take my own notes?' 'You take notes for a change, it won't kill you!'<< 3. >>'Where are you going?' said Ron, startled. To send a letter,' said Hermione, swinging her bag on to her shoulder. 'It... well, I don't know whether... but it's worth trying... and I'm the only one who can.' 'I hate it when she does that,' grumbled Ron, as he and Harry got up from the table and made their own, slower way out of the Great Hall. 'Would it kill her to tell us what she's up to for once? It'd take her about ten more seconds (...)<< 4. >>'You should write a book,' Ron told Hermione as he cut up his potatoes, 'translating mad things girls do so boys can understand them.'<< 5. >>`Yeah, she shows signs of life if you do this,' said Ron, and with his tongue he made soft clipclopping noises. Umbridge sat bolt upright, looking around wildly. `Anything wrong, Professor?' called Madam Pomfrey, poking her head around her office door. `No... no...' said Umbridge, sinking back into her pillows. `No, I must have been dreaming...' Hermione and Ginny muffled their laughter in the bedclothes. `Speaking of centaurs,' said Hermione, when she had recovered a little, [...]<< I tried here showing how deep is Ron/Hermione friendship, and how their development is making them more similar. If Ron/Hermione ship come true, it won't be a romance of bossy Hermione and lazy Ron, but a romance of two people who have met in the middle of their differences and who had learned from each other how to overcome them. When responding to this post please remember to snip all you can. This post is huge. Regards, -- Pshemekan From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Fri Aug 15 23:40:00 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 16:40:00 -0700 Subject: Chocolate Frog Cards (was: UK vs US Harry Potter) Message-ID: <410-22003851523400428@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77467 Mandy wrote: "Is any one else out there tired of the differences in the UK and US editions, merchandising, movies etc. etc. etc?? Can't we all write or email Scholastic and Warner Bros., and tell them to stop changing the details? I have heard JKR has to approve all the changes when it comes to the books but it sure makes our life more complicated when it comes to analyzing every single detail. Now I hear the Chocolate Frog Cards are different! I know the Every Flavor Beans are different. What next?" Now me (Wendy): LOL, Mandy! I agree that all the detail changes are a big pain, but what the heck else would we have to talk about for the next however many months until Book 6. ;-) I'm the one who mentioned the Chocolate Frog cards, though, so I thought I'd clarify exactly what the changes are (it's probably not as bad as you think). The chocolate frog cards released in the U.S. are more like the ones described in the books. These cards were put out by Wizards of the Coast (who also put out the Trading Card Game, which is a lot of fun, btw). Each card features a famous witch or wizard, including a "moving" picture on the front (I don't think it's a hologram, but rather one of those pictures that has two or three different scenes that make it look as though the person is "moving" when you tilt the card back and forth. Stupid description, I know, but I don't know what the name is for that sort of "animation"). On the back is a brief biography of the witch or wizard, and apparently all this text was edited or at least reviewed and approved by JKR. So now we have a bit more information on some of the characters in the Potterverse. Instead of typing them all out here, I'll just thank Lexicon Steve for already doing that work, and refer you to the following link where descriptions can be found: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/card_wizards.html The UK chocolate frog cards are totally different, but not in such a way as to "conflict" with the US ones as far as canon is concerned. The cards in the UK portray scenes or characters from the Harry Potter books. For example, there are cards for Quidditch, the Great Hall, Fluffy, Harry, Hermione, Norbert, the Sorting Hat, etc. They are illustrated in a similar manner to much of the licensed merchandise, with the "cartoony" drawings of the characters. They also feature the same sort of "moving" pictures as the US cards. There really isn't any "information" on these cards that could add to our understanding of canon, so they don't conflict with the American ones. They are a totally different sort of thing altogether. Here's a link to pictures/descriptions of all the cards. This site refers to them as the "Australian" cards, but they are the same as the ones I bought in the UK, so they were obviously released in places other than Britain. http://harrypottertrading.itgo.com/frog_list.htm) And yes, the Bertie Botts Beans are different. They don't have nearly as many disgusting flavours in the UK as can be found in the American version. I think there are only two nasties in the UK (tomato - which actually isn't bad; and it's either onion or horseradish, don't remember which). I may be forgetting some. And instead of saying "Harry Potter" (or whatever the good beans say), the nasty ones have an exclamation point as a warning. The U.S. has at least dirt, booger, vomit, sardine, and grass. Also from memory, and I'm pretty sure I'm forgetting some of these. In any case, there are lots more icky ones in the US version. The sardine flavour ones are really disgusting. I've never gotten a vomit flavoured one in any of the boxes I've bought, so I don't know about that one. In any case, I've never really liked either of the two sets of beans - even the "normal" flavoured ones are pretty icky as far as jelly beans are concerned, IMO. :-) The Harry Potter candy that I think is fantastic are the Fizzing Whizbees. They are yummy, and I used to buy them at my local Tesco (chain supermarket) in Scotland. Now, I can't find them anywhere in the U.S. and it's a shame, because they're really good. Cheers! Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 00:14:29 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:14:29 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77468 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > sebfish5: > J.K.Rowling has said there is something which is the "heart of it > all" and that "none of the fans have guessed it yet, though they > have skirted around it" (Newsnight interview, before order of the > phoenix) she also said "she has laid all her clues" in a sense there > will still be more but she has laid plenty. > okay so > 1) What do you think this heart is, if you are that much of a god > but, more likely > 2) What, or who, do you think this "heart" revolves around? > > I think it has to be something to do with Snape, and his > relationship with Lily and James, and his current job. Although he > specifically states that his job is to spy on the Death Eaters. > I'm not saying Snape is a bad guy, infact, I think he is a good > guy, but I think he is the centre of everything. > > Dan: > I believe the "heart of it all" is Neville. This *was* before OoP's release, and though many fans guessed it (myself, and others on this list, for example) we've seen it spelled out rather clearly that There's Something About Longbottom. > MHO: I think the "heart of it all" is vision literally, and metaphorically. Harry needs his glasses repaired a number of times. """"" sees through the eyes of LV. """" has his vision of things is clouded by emotion. Ron and Hermione see Snape doing a curse during the quidditch match but think its Quirrell. DD didn't see the flaw of his plan or something like that. Fudge turns a blind eye to LV's return. (still think he is LV supporter or DE). And those are just a few. Fran Most all of the characters are not seeing things clearly at some point. From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 00:16:07 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:16:07 -0000 Subject: Origins of AK Redux In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77469 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com,> > CW[re: meaning of AK]: > > I've always thought it was a play on the conjuror's cry > of 'Abracadabra' eg when pulling a rabbit out of a hat. "snip" I've searched on the site, but this topic does not seem to have come up before, or Yahoo can't find the reference.. Talisman, adjusting her pince-nez to get a good look at you, suggests: I notice that you are spelling it "Kadavra" in the original message. Perhaps this is the source of your problem. Check your texts for the correct spelling, "Kedavra," and you will increase the chances of a successful search. This subject has been discussed since the dawn of group time. Not only has JKR explained in interviews that Avada Kedavra is a real--not made up-- term, but its definition is listed in the HP lexicon at www.theninemuses.net. Although I recall seeing this in much earlier discussions, it can be found at message #49449, thanks to Tyler Hewitt. For the search-challenged, it means "may the thing be destroyed" in Aramaic. From t.forch at mail.dk Sat Aug 16 00:24:10 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:24:10 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: References: <4.3.2.7.2.20030815235000.02454620@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030816022026.0246b100@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 77470 At 21:54 15-08-03 +0000, scoutmom21113 wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > wrote: > > > > A message that appears to me to be quite thorough (it included all > > the passages I knew of and a few I didn't know) was posted a few > > months back on alt.fan.harry-potter. It can be found on google: > > > > > <http://google.com/groups?selm=e536d9e6.0307031614.6e5296f6% > > 40posting.google.com> > > > > HTH > > Troels > >The link didn't work for me. How/where did you enter your search? >Ravenclaw Bookworm Odd - it works perfectly for me ... I can see that the line wrapped - might that be it? Anyway the message ID can be extracted as Msg.ID Which is searchable. Otherwise you can search for the phrase "Harry wird mit jemandem beenden" - the message is from 3rd July this year. Troels From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 00:32:38 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:32:38 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: <40E41CA2.516F9A1B.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/15/2003 6:12:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 writes: > > > Geoff: > > I hadn't. I tend to associate it more with "Abracadabra". > > Also "cadaver" is not a word which is used much in the UK. > > It's more of an American word. We stick to the more genteel "corpse". > > :-) > > Well, I don't know what Americans you know, but I'm from the US, and we don't walk around saying "Cadaver, cadaver, cadaver." We usually just say "Dead body." Or "Corpse." But cadaver *is* a word for dead body, and I think JKR must have used this in her alteration of "Abracadabra" to create her meaning. > > Brief Chronicles >From the US: Cadaver is used mostly in medicine. Medical examiners and Pathologists refer to a dead person as a cadaver. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 00:35:31 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:35:31 -0000 Subject: Compromise: WAS Factual Errors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Geoff: > And then you get a situation such as I had three days ago when I used the search function to backtrack a thread and then found after a great deal of digging around that it had changed its thread title at least twice prior to that which made following the thread back to its origin rather difficult....... I have to back up Geoff on this one. I just did a search for messages on Cho and came up with the following subjects (partial list): Fudge Naive or DE? (was "is there a reason?") Re: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? What do Muggles Know? (Was: Re: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys) Re: Metamorphmagus!Harry? Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? Re: Hagrid and thestrals Chocolate Frog Cards (was: UK vs US Harry Potter) Re: Dumbledore's Family? If Cho's name is even mentioned in most of these messages, I missed it. So if I ask a question about Cho that was answered two weeks ago will I get jumped on? In the interest of sanity and harmony, I propose a little compromise. Posters will make every *reasonable* attempt to see if the information is already there. And readers will just skip the messages that have been answered to their satisfaction. Afterall, we still have several years to go before book 6. Most of what we are saying now will be discussed many many times again before then. Ravenclaw Bookworm From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 00:35:59 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:35:59 -0000 Subject: is there a reason? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77473 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > Fran: > > > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he is > a > > LV supporter if not a DE. Around the same passage quoted above, DD > > accuses Fudge of "putting too much importance on purity of blood". > > Things that bother me about Fudge: > > 1) Puts the blame on Sirius for the Potter's, and Wormtails > supposed > > death without a trial or asking for an explanation. > > KathyK replies: > Crouch Sr. was the one to throw Sirius in Azkaban. Sirius says so > himself in GoF. "Oh I know Crouch all right," he said quietly. "He > was the one who gave the order for me to be sent ot Azkaban-- without > a trial." (US paperback, 526) Fudge wasn't even minister until > after this. Until Crouch Jr and the Lestranges tortured the > Longbottoms, everyone thought Crouch Sr was going to become the next > Minister. > > Fran: > 2)The deatheaters in POA > > KathyK: > I don't know what you're referring to with this. Are you talking > about the dementors, perhaps? > > Fran: > > > 3)The dementors kiss on Barty jr without taking the opportunity to > > question him. > > 4)The whole parting of the ways. > > 5)His continuing reluctance to believe LV is back at the end of > OOP. > > He didn't exactly go Oh MY God you were right all along DD, he > > reacted begrudgingly to it. > > KathyK: > His reluctance is understandable, if not outright explained. Fudge > loves his power as Minister of Magic. He's afraid of anything that > will upset his position, especially Dumbledore. He grudgingly > accepts Voldemort's return at the end of OoP not because he's a DE > and doesn't want to admit that his "master" is back, but because he > didn't want to admit Dumbledore is right and that he's been not just > wrong about Voldemort's return but that he's been actively covering > up the evidence Dumbledore and Harry give so he can remain in power. > (ugh that's not a pretty sentence, is it?) > And in the "Parting of the Ways" I saw Fudge's refusal to entertain > Voldemort's return as great fear of Voldemort and of what it could do > to his position. The image that always sticks with me from that > scene is (US paperback, 709): > He rocked backward and forward on his small feet for a moment and > spun his bowler hat in his hands. Finally, he said, with a hint of a > plea in his voice, "He can't be back, Dumbledore, he just can't be..." > To me he doesn't seem like a DE or Voldemort supporter, just a small > man afraid to face the truth. > > Fran: > > 6)He thinks so highly of Lucious Malfoy. Yes I know Lucious gives > > money but giving money isnt that big a deal for someone who has > > alot. > > I realize that this is out there but I just dont believe he is that > > naive. I also believe Ludo Bagman is a DE.....Wimbourn Wasp...Wasp > > buzzing around in GOF and OOP..... > > Fran > > KathyK: > I don't think Fudge is naive, either. He's in love with his own > power. He believes in the purity of blood. These things do not a > Death Eater make, IMO. He's stupid for not believing Dumbledore, for > placing himself above the safety of the WW, and for continuing to > hold onto the notion of purity of blood. But he's not a Voldemort > supporter. He's also not the only one unwilling to believe that > Voldemort returned without proof beyond Dumbledore's word. > Dumbledore's word probably should be enough, but not for people who > want to believe their world is still safe and Voldemort-free. > > KathyK (who does not believe Fudge and Umbridge are Death Eaters, no > matter how evil they act) Reply: yes I meant dementors for deatheaters--sorry about that. If LV took over then fudge would surely loose his position as MOM! Fran Thanks for all the response as I enjoy all views! From ezzle at aol.com Sat Aug 16 01:01:03 2003 From: ezzle at aol.com (ezzleberry621) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:01:03 -0000 Subject: Who will teach Defense Against the Dark Arts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77474 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > One other thing: Harry's boggart will now look like Dolores > Umbridge. Draco Malfoy's boggart will look like Harry. me: Harry's boggart will continue to be a dementor... (PoA, US HB Ch. 8 The Flight of the Fat Lady, p.155)-- Harry is asking Lupin why he didn't allow him to fight the boggart in his DADA lesson... "I didn't think of Voldemort," said Harry honestly. "I--I remembered those dementors." "I see," said Lupin thoughtfully. "Well, well... I'm impressed." He smiled slightly at the look of surprise on Harry's face. "That suggests that what you fear most of all is-- fear. Very wise, Harry." -Eri From lmbolland at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 01:06:44 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:06:44 -0000 Subject: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030816022026.0246b100@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77475 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > > > > Odd - it works perfectly for me ... > I can see that the line wrapped - might that be it? > Anyway the message ID can be extracted as > > Msg.ID > > Which is searchable. > > Otherwise you can search for the phrase "Harry wird mit jemandem > beenden" - the message is from 3rd July this year. > > Troels OK, here's a shorter link to the post Troels tried to send: http://www.google.com/groups?selm=e536d9e6.0307031614.6e5296f6% 40posting.google.com&output=gplain I hope that works for most of you. The original assertion was that "JKR repeatedly said Harry won't end up with Hermione." So I asked for proof... quotes. According to *these* quotes, I don't find where JKR "repeatedly" says Harry won't end up with Hermione - she's just teasing and allowing some speculation on the whole issue. I didn't think she had ever said anything specific like that - of course everyone is free to continue to speculate! Lauri From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 01:10:34 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (ariadnemajic) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:10:34 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > J.K.Rowling has said there is something which is the "heart of it > all" and that "none of the fans have guessed it yet, though they > have skirted around it" (Newsnight interview, before order of the > phoenix) she also said "she has laid all her clues" in a sense there will still be more but she has laid plenty. If one of the primary themes is "the choice between what is right and what is easy" (Dumbledore GOF), then I believe the "heart of it all" is that, ultimately, Harry has a *choice* about fulfilling the prophecy. It's like Dumbledore's charm on the Mirror of Erised, "only someone wishing to find the stone but not use it..." In this case, Harry "has the power to vanquish the Dark Lord" but that power has to be activated in some way by his choices. I'm guessing that would be some sacrifice of love, like his mom; it won't be killing LV out of hatred. I just can't believe that Harry's life would be pre-destined if the whole moral is about choices. Ariadne From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 16 01:12:13 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:12:13 -0000 Subject: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77477 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goodnight_moon5" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer > > > > > > Odd - it works perfectly for me ... > > I can see that the line wrapped - might that be it? > > Anyway the message ID can be extracted as > > > > Msg.ID > > > > Which is searchable. > > > > Otherwise you can search for the phrase "Harry wird mit jemandem > > beenden" - the message is from 3rd July this year. > > > > Troels > > > > > > OK, here's a shorter link to the post Troels tried to send: > http://www.google.com/groups?selm=e536d9e6.0307031614.6e5296f6% > 40posting.google.com&output=gplain > > I hope that works for most of you. > > The original assertion was that "JKR repeatedly said Harry won't end > up with Hermione." So I asked for proof... quotes. According to > *these* quotes, I don't find where JKR "repeatedly" says Harry won't > end up with Hermione - she's just teasing and allowing some > speculation on the whole issue. > > I didn't think she had ever said anything specific like that - of > course everyone is free to continue to speculate! > I don't understand how this quote can be considered at all since it doesn't exist/is not referenced outside of the alt.fan.harry-potter group. Searching the Web (Google) for "Harry wird mit jemandem beenden" returns nothing. Erica From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sat Aug 16 01:49:07 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:49:07 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lockhard and CoS; WAS Why the Order didn't destroy the prophecy in OoP References: Message-ID: <000a01c36398$94bae140$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 77478 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote: > > Am I the only person outa here who loved CoS ?! While COS is my least favorite book, it does have my favorite line in it. page 2, when Dudley tells Harry to "pass the frying pan". Harry replies "You've forgotten the magic word". I wish that had been in the movie! Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eberte at vaeye.com Sat Aug 16 02:06:07 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:06:07 -0000 Subject: Lockhard and CoS; WAS Why the Order didn't destroy the prophecy in OoP In-Reply-To: <000a01c36398$94bae140$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77479 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote: > Am I the only person outa here who loved CoS ?! > Me: No, I believe that you are in good company. If I recall correctly, JKR said in an interview at some point that CoS is one of *her* personal favorites in the series. (An even more obsessive fan will need to tell you which interview and when she said it.) Elle (who loved CoS, but loved it a little bit less than the others) From shaman at mac.com Sat Aug 16 02:21:57 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:21:57 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <690782D5-CF90-11D7-9860-000393C324F6@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77480 On Friday, August 15, 2003, at 09:06 PM, goodnight_moon5 wrote: > The original assertion was that "JKR repeatedly said Harry won't end > up with Hermione." So I asked for proof... quotes. According to > *these* quotes, I don't find where JKR "repeatedly" says Harry won't > end up with Hermione - she's just teasing and allowing some > speculation on the whole issue. > > I didn't think she had ever said anything specific like that - of > course everyone is free to continue to speculate! That's the way it reads to me, as well: she even references the SHIPpers fairly directly on that page: > JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan > sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is > fun. She seems to be deliberately trolling for R/H SHIPpers, even (in at least one of those quotes)...certainly, the page offers no proof of JKR repeatedly ruling out romance between ANY two characters. On the contrary: she is quite clever at stirring the pot, and unabashed in doing so - what I mean is, I think JKR enjoys the wild goose/SHIP chase, and eggs it on. She's been very careful to avoid saying anything definitive about any pairing, but she pretty obviously can't bring herself to quit teasing & flirting on the topic. I imagine 'Ginny & the Giant Squid' must be her favorite(!). -- Charlie From octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 02:29:41 2003 From: octaviaempressofmars at hotmail.com (belsum) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:29:41 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Is any one else out there tired of the differences in the UK and US > editions, merchandising, movies etc. etc. etc?? > Can't we all write or email Scholastic and Warner Bros., and tell > them to stop changing the details? I have heard JKR has to approve > all the changes when it comes to the books but it sure makes our life > more complicated when it comes to analyzing every single detail. > Now I hear the Chocolate Frog Cards are different! I know the Every > Flavor Beans are different. What next? > Mandy, who is somewhat frustrated and can't keep up with it all.... Oh my god Mandy, I am totally with you on this one. I am _this close_ to breaking down and getting a UK set just to be able to compare on my own. (But I suppose if Scholastic heard that, it would just give them more reason not to release one edition only. Sigh.) Belsum From editor at texas.net Sat Aug 16 03:23:29 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:23:29 -0500 Subject: Not exactly an Admin, Was: Compromise: WAS Factual Errors References: Message-ID: <000c01c363a5$c4a04fa0$0e04a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77482 Ravenclaw Bookworm (love that name) said: > In the interest of sanity and harmony, I propose a little > compromise. Posters will make every *reasonable* attempt to see if > the information is already there. And readers will just skip the > messages that have been answered to their satisfaction. Afterall, > we still have several years to go before book 6. Most of what we > are saying now will be discussed many many times again before then. List Geist on deck, serving that "word to the wise" function of Geists. Listen. People get details wrong. The Yahoo search function sucks. If you only see a subject discussed six times in one year, you're lucky. New people are excited and want to jump right in to discussion and most don't read the archives. Some people are conscientious about subject lines and some aren't and some forget to change it. These are facts of life. >From the perspective of nearly three years on this list: even L.O.O.N.s* slip up and post things that are flat wrong. And even when you've seen a topic brought up multiple times, each time is usually an original thought, for that particular poster, and they're genuinely interested and want input. They don't do it to irritate; in fact, I get very tired of the apologetic way people post--"sorry if this has been covered," etc. This isn't a college course, where a topic is discussed and laid aside. This is a living and growing (at an alarming rate) list. Usually, if I feel like responding yet again, I'll try to recap the high points of some of what has been mentioned for them; if I'm really feeling dutiful, I'll find them a link to the relevant Fantastic Post or a couple likely past post numbers. But I, and most of the older listmembers, do this in the spirit of "here's what some other people had thought," not "hey, we've already covered that." I mean, realistically, newcomers didn't read the archives when there were only a couple thousand posts there. Or a couple hundred. *I* didn't. The admins do a terrific job, but they can't be everywhere. We depend on the quality of our listmembers to help us maintain the atmosphere of the list--to be tolerant, patient, and in catching factual errors, to show their mettle for possible L.O.O.N. membership. [I suspect many of you in this particular thread are potential L.O.O.N.s; Ms. Curmudgeon, I, and the esteemed Mr. Lardbottom will have to begin paying more attention.] People *do* join this list who have read the books only once and are idly interested in discussion. Not everyone has a steel-trap memory, and not everyone shares the same level of passion about details. I cannot possibly number the times I've clarified What Snape Knew and When in the Shrieking Shack, whether Ron or Hagrid tells Harry that all bad wizards were Slytherins, etc. *It happens.* If it irritates you, *don't respond.* In the past, the theory was that someone would set them straight. If that were true when there were only a couple hundred members, it's certainly true now, when there's close to 10, 500. And in that spirit, I wish to warn everyone now: I haven't been following *diddly* on this list for the past few months. If I choose to make an observation, I do so in the full knowledge that it's probably been discussed. But honestly, if it's been discussed more than a week ago, there's a couple hundred newcomers who didn't see it; and in my experience, there's almost *always* another angle to examine. That's part of the fun. I mean, Kelley and I found a previously undiscovered Flint in GoF, two days before OoP release! If you don't want to revisit a topic, don't; and if you don't want to correct yet another factual error, don't; but if you do, my experience has shown that it can lead to new and interesting perspectives. So let there be peace. At least until I break out the balloons. ~Amanda, list poltergeist, founding L.O.O.N., and premier Snapologist (who, to be honest, has allowed the number of times she's read new versions of the same Snape theories to affect *her* list participation) *League Of Obsessive Nitpickers, for those of you who don't know; people who obsess about tiny HP details to an extent involving considerations of their sanity or quality of life. To wear the title they must be publicly acknowledged as a kindred spirit by a sitting L.O.O.N. From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 03:40:17 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 03:40:17 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Gran?! (was: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > > > (And now I'm going to do something I don't normally do...I > > usually > > > > like to pinpoint my facts *before* speculating, but isn't there > a > > > > known deatheater who has a name that could be shortened to > > Algie? > > > > If anyone can find it, please post it.) > > > > > > > > James "Evil!Gran/Algie" Redmont > > > > > > You probably think of Algernon Rookwood. See message 77087 > > > > > > Marika > > > > No it was Augustus Rookwood. According to the Lexicon and they're > > very reliable. But there are many DE's whose first names we don't > > know yet. > > > > Mandy > > Mandy again: > It seems as if there is both an Augustus and an Algernon Rookwood. > Brothers? Or, as another post has suggested, another pesky US vs UK > edition change? > Can anyone help? > Thanks I saw somewere on a website that Its one of those pesky U.S./U.K> thing. But i dont see why they would change a name..... Garrett From Koinonia2 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 03:57:11 2003 From: Koinonia2 at hotmail.com (koinonia02) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 03:57:11 -0000 Subject: Vampire!Snape(long) In-Reply-To: <410-22003841475714182@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" wrote: Okay. My take on Vampire!Snape. My answer to this is in two parts. I don't think it's a bunch of hooey, but I'm also not certain that Snape will prove to be a vampire in canon. I feel certain that JKR put in the clues deliberately, but whether she meant them as clues or as red herrings, it's difficult to say. There is just too much vampire imagery surrounding Snape for it to be our imaginations. "K": I agree with almost all that Wendy had to say. So, from one vampire lover to another...it is amazing that some people don't see Snape and vampires connected at all. I would like to know how some of us can pick up on the hints and others can't even seem to find one. I would also like to know why JKR would bother to even place the hints if Snape wasn't some type of vampire. Why the red herrings? What would she be trying to draw our attention away from? Just 'what' is Snape? If he isn't a vampire/dhampir then what is he? There's something about this man besides just some oddball who is a depressed young soul. Wendy St John ...but IMO the big bit is the vampire essay that Lupin assigned, seemingly in "retaliation" for Snape's werewolf essay. "K" I know others can't believe Lupin would stoop to that level but I don't agree with that at all. Not only does Lupin make a point of mentioning that vampire assignment in front of Snape, but Snape doesn't bother to stop Lupin and the boys from leaving. We are never told what his reaction is to Lupin's statement. Personally, I think it's funny and wish we could have seen Snape's reaction. Why didn't JKR bother to show us? That would have been a dead give away. Also, right before Harry leaves Hogwarts (prior to the Lupin thingy) he meets up with Neville and they are discussing vampires just as Snape walks up. These are only two of the examples of Snape/vampire in a very short amount of time. Wendy St John: Is she trying to trick us, or trying to trick us into tricking us? (That makes no sense, does it?) "K": I understand it! Wendy St John: I believe the vampire clues are intentional, which means that she either A) put them in so that when we learn he's a vampire, she can say, "look, it was there all along;" or B) she's put the clues in to trick us into thinking he's a vampire, so she can say, "Gotcha!" with something else when he turns out *not* to be. "K": JKR has admitted to planting red herrings and of course this could be one of them. I still don't understand why she would bother unless she is trying to hide something about Snape. If I'm wrong on this vampire stuff I'll laugh along with everybody else. It's just fun to think about and discuss. Wendy St John: and I do believe the popularity of these books may have affected the way she wrote in her clues in OoP, and possibly even in GoF. However, there were plenty of good vampire clues in PoA and PS/SS, and I'm not sure she was trying to be quite so sneaky way back when. "K": I have only read OoP once and I read it only to enjoy. I wasn't reading it looking for clues. At first I didn't think there were very many hints at vampires in OoP but I do believe there are a few and I'll address them at a later time. Wendy St John: I don't believe that she's changing the fundamental content or storyline because of the popularity of the books... "K": I don't think she is either and I wouldn't want her to do so. Wendy St John: However, since this whole vampire thing appeared in the first book, I think it's possible that she intended for the revelation that Severus is a vampire to be a big bang later in the series, and she just never thought so many of us would pick up on it, and find it so obvious. "K": It's like Snape wanting the DADA job and never getting it. She has finally admitted that he indeed does want the job but won't say why Dumbledore (who is in no way evil or to blame for every little thing that goes wrong)does not allow him to have it. What's all this 'it would bring out the worst in him'? I think this DADA thing was suppose to be sort of a big bang in the later books and I think it is in some way connected to what Snape is. Whatever that may be. Wendy St John: Of course, I think there is also a good chance that it is a total red herring, and she would laugh herself silly to find out just how much discussion goes on about it. "K": I've been wrong before and I might be wrong on this. As long as Snape doesn't turn out to be truly evil I don't care. Wendy St John: But I have always been fascinated with vampires, as long as I can remember. In general, I think they're sexy, and the idea of Snape (who is already Dead Sexy in my book) being a vampire just adds another layer of attraction to him for me. Bent? Maybe. But I'm not the only one! ;-) "K": I have always loved vampires also and I think he would make a great vamp. The way he looks and the way he moves is wonderful. If he just turns out to be a greasy-haired, sneering wizard who wears black that's fine also except the vampire thing would be great as far as I'm concerned. Wendy St John: Why Half-Vampire? Because I like to think he was born that way, and was already vampiric as a Hogwarts' student. But in canon, we've seen him age, so he couldn't have been just a pure vampire, or his age would remain static (unless JKR decides to play with that, which could very well be the case - more on this in a bit) "K": Here's just a few definitions on dhampirs: ~~In the shadows of gypsy folklore lurks the dhampir, the offspring of a vampire and a human. Shunned by both branches of his family tree and conflicted by his dual nature, the dhampir is nevertheless particularly effective as a mercenary siding with the living, relentlessly tracking down and relieving the undead of their pesky "un-" status.~~ ~~A dhampir is the product of a vampire and a human, stemming from gypsy folklore. A dhampir retains some power from its vampire side, although it does not have all of its weakness, or feel it's weaknesses as strongly.~~ ~~"The term Dhampir in modern folklore refers to the offspring of a vampire and a human mate, traditionally a male vampire mating with a human female. This offspring is normally male. The dhampir was thought to have special qualities. He could sense where vampires hid themselves from the world, and therefore he had the ability to be a superb vampire hunter. These qualities would be passed down genetically to his offspring, and it was thought to last many generations."~~ ~~When a vampire has a child with a mortal, the child is a dhampir, half-mortal, half-vampire. Dhampir seek to hunt vampires almost instinctively as soon as they become aware of their dhampiric nature. The theme of Dhampir is one of self-hatred and trying to make up for your parent's mistakes, trying to fix things that keep breaking.~~ ~~The dhampir comes from the gypsy lore of eastern Europe. The vampires of some gypsy legends have insatiable sexual appetites (along with their appetite for blood), mainly directed towards their widows. Although a female vampire cannot bear children, a child can be produced from the union of a male vampire and living woman. These children, most of whom are male, are called dhampirs, and have the special ability to detect vampires (many of whom can become invisible in gypsy legend). The dhampir may hire himself out as a vampire killer, either engaging in all sorts of odd rituals, wrestling with the invisible spirit, and/or doing it in with a single shot from a pistol. Just like vampires, the exact names and characteristics of the dhampir differ from region to region. Most of the time, dhampirs were considered to be normal humans, other than their special abilities of detection...~~ Notice that the dhampir is especially known for hunting vampires. In some folklore it seems the dhampir makes a point of tracking down his father. Wendy St John: Now, this next bit is the other major thing I want to say. As soon as the subject of Vampire!Snape comes up, there are tons of posts back and forth about "but he can go out in daylight," and "What about the garlic in Quirrell's turban," blah blah blah. Well, none of that matters. I think this bears repeating. None. Of. That. Matters. "K": I'm not an expert on vampires. I admit that. However, I have spent time researching vampires and they are all different. Many of the sites differ as to where the folklore started and what a vampire can and can't do. One site has a vampire being able to look in a mirror. Another site has a vampire walking in the daylight. Who is right? Wendy St John: In fact, if, by the end of Book 7, JKR hasn't come out and specifically mentioned that Snape is *not* a vampire, I will forever believe him to be one, even if she never *confirms* this in the text. "K": I'm sure we will know one way or another whether Snape is a vampire/dhampir or whatever else he might be. Actually, there are a couple of things that Snape reminds me of but I'll keep those weird thoughts to myself. The vampire theory causes enough problems. Wendy St John Message 77131 Why Half-Vampire? Because I like to think he was born that way, and was already vampiric as a Hogwarts' student. But in canon, we've seen him age,so he couldn't have been just a pure vampire, or his age would remainstatic (unless JKR decides to play with that, which could very well be thecase - more on this in a bit). "K": I read on one site that a dhampir doesn't even know they are different or have any special abilities until they get older. Whether Snape was born a dhampir or not I'm not sure. silmariel Message 77414 I don't happen to think Snape is a vampire/dhampire, btw, but a big red herring covering a real one. "K" To cover what? That's what I would like to know. If it's a red herring just what is JKR hiding from us? Here's my POV of a certain scene in OoP. Chapter 28 Round-shouldered yet angular, he walked in a twitchy manner that recalled a spider, his oily hair swinging about his face. When I read this I thought James or Sirius had put a hex on Snape. It made me think of how Neville was always having something done to his legs. Yet others take this to mean that Snape is slouching and has no self-confidence. IMO I don't see that at all but I think it's because of the way I look at the books. Also, I'm just not into all that psychology stuff. It doesn't say Snape is slouching or stooped over. It describes him as round shouldered. Plus, I've never heard of a person with emotional problems walking like a spider. *Twitching*? As I was researching vampires I ran across the following: ~~Powers and Abilities of Vampires /Scale walls Vampires can be as nimble as spiders. The most well known case comes from a scene in Dracula.~~ ~~Wall Climbing Vampires can climb walls without the aid of any equipment. They can climb up or down the steepest walls the way insects do (much like Spiderman), enabling them to seek refuge in places where no mere mortal can reach.~~ I ran across several sites that mentioned vampires climbing like spiders or having special climbing abilities. Also in OoP we have the mother of Black yelling about half-breeds, traitors, and Creatures of Dirt. In some folklore a vampire had to have dirt in his shoes. ~~In Bram Stoker's Dracula, the vampire did not rest in a coffin, but needed to rest on his native soil. Thus Dracula transported large crates full of soil with him when he traveled to England. The desecration of his soil eventually forced him back to his native land.~~ Let me mention here that evidently some of the early folklore did not have vampires sleeping in a coffin. ~~Early literaray vampires did not have coffins.Geraldine from "Christabel", Lord Ruthven, and Varney the Vampire had no casket. Carmilla brought no coffin with her, although she was eventually found resting in her own crypt. Otherwise, these vampires had perfectly comfortable rest wherever they might have been.~~ As has been said many times before, the are many different types of vampire lore and JKR can do as she so pleases. So, if Snape isn't a vampire that's okay. Though I would like to see him as such, I would sure get over it. As I have said before, I believe Snape is going to be the example of how a vampire can live in the wizarding world. Vampires are hated and feared. There is a strong theme of racism in the books and I believe vampires will come into the story. Someone has to represent the vampires. Personally, I'd rather it be Snape. "K" From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 03:57:11 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 03:57:11 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77485 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "belsum" > Oh my god Mandy, I am totally with you on this one. I am _this close_ > to breaking down and getting a UK set just to be able to compare on my > own. (But I suppose if Scholastic heard that, it would just give them > more reason not to release one edition only. Sigh.) > Belsum I wonder, do the UK editions have those same hideous illustrations? I noticed that the covers are different. I absolutely cannot abide that Grandpre woman. Her drawing of Snape in PoA is crime against humanity! Allyson From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Fri Aug 15 21:08:00 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:08:00 -0000 Subject: Half Vampire? (was: Vampire!Snape) In-Reply-To: <410-220038414162318684@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77486 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" <> > Let's say that a human and a vampire have fallen in love. Why couldn't this > human voluntarily allow her (or his) vampire lover to feed on her/his > blood? In fact, OoP gives us a lovely bit of canon to make this plausible: > the blood replenishing draught. <> And just for fun...... Maybe Bertha caught him behind the greenhouse getting a meal from Florence. Lliannanshe (who likes the theory and would like to believe but still needs proof) From alicepmint at yahoo.com Fri Aug 15 21:56:13 2003 From: alicepmint at yahoo.com (alicepmint) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 21:56:13 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77487 I always thought it has something to do with "shipping/relationships theories", since she said it under the context of being asked about fan's unlikely pairings theories. Quote from article ============================================= JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that? JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. No-one has ever - I have gone and looked at some of it and no-one's ever ... There is one thing that if anyone guessed I would be really annoyed as it is kind of the heart of it all. And it kind of explains everything and no- one's quite got there but a couple of people have skirted it. So you know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues. ============================================= My take? It has something to do with Lily and the men related to her (including Voldemort). Or Harry & Neville, since their counter-part qualities and similiaries were "built up" since Book 1. Alice From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Sat Aug 16 22:57:59 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:57:59 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Family? References: <410-220038515215931469@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <001101c36449$d7c6dc30$6b984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 77488 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Wendy St John" To: Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2003 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Family? > > Mandy wrote: > > > Does anyone else out there wonder if Dumbledore has > > > or had any > > > family? He seems to be a wonderful man and I'd be > > > surprised if he > > > was not married at some point. > > > > Nox added: > > "How about the Druidess Clidona, former owner of Fawkes? Dumbledore had to > get that Phoenix from somewhere! Perhaps she was his wife when she was > alive. Sorry, I can't remeber where the refernce to her is found..." > > Now me (Wendy): > > Here's the canon on Cliodna: She appears in the books in "The Journey From > Platform Nine and Three-Quarters" chapter in PS/SS (page 78, UK paperback). > She is on one of the chocolate frog cards that Harry gets: > > Harry "finally tore his eyes away from the druidess Cliodna, who was > scratching her nose, to open a bag of Bertie Botts Every-Flavour Beans." > > I don't remember another mention of her in the books (someone please jump > in if there is one and I've forgotten it), but we have a bit of additional > information about Cliodna, which may or may not be canon (depending on how > you define it): she appears on one of the American "Chocolate Frog" cards > (which, btw, are completely different from the ones released in Britain. > Not even remotely similar). The card reads: I think I remember her mentioned as being the previous owner of Fawkes, but I cannot remember where (and my books are not here ATM). That's where my idea came from. I could, of course, have been imagining it... Nox Notte Torrente "We have normality. I repeat, we have normality. Anything you still can't cope with is therefore your own problem." ~Trillian. "Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy" From patnkatng at cox.net Fri Aug 15 23:26:00 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:26:00 -0000 Subject: Augustus vs. Algernon (was:Neville's Evil Gran?! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77489 > > Mandy again: > It seems as if there is both an Augustus and an Algernon Rookwood. > Brothers? Or, as another post has suggested, another pesky US vs UK > edition change? > Can anyone help? > Thanks Hi Mandy, The Lexicon says under Augustus Rookwood, "In first British editions of The Order of the Phoenix, Rookwood's name is erroneously given as Algernon" Katrina From mg_mchenry at hotmail.com Fri Aug 15 23:40:39 2003 From: mg_mchenry at hotmail.com (mg_mchenry) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:40:39 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77490 > (DADA scores were up 30% over last year at Hogwarts or something like > that....) so where they may have been stronger in theory of DADA > having to read the text for Umbridge, it may not translate to higher > scores. Not to mention, were they retaining what they were *supposed* > to be reading for her, or were they simply staring at the page for an > hour or so? > > Mtwelovett If Umbridge's instruction improved OWL scores, either: a) The DADA OWL test needs to be changed or b) Umbridge's text book should rightfully be used again But my interpretation is that Umbridge's textbook did not include DADA theory; DADA was considered "by the Ministry" too dangerous in the hands of underage wizards. (I wonder whether this was Umbridge's view, or it extended to Fudge's regime, or if the Ministry as a whole is rotten) Umbridge's students instead learned to avoid conflict, which I doubt helped the students with their OWLs. I don't know how many 5th years there are at Hogwarts, but if DA can't make up even half of that amount. I'm sure the non-DA students did worse on their OWLs, and therefore the scores did not go up. I wonder if the MoM really fits the WW and how the coming battle will change that. It seems to have no sense of justice at its core. Then again, perhaps no change is needed. The power of the WW seems to rest in the non-sensical, the unlikely, and the unstable. Perhaps the wizards prefer to live in anarchy. But some organization is needed to keep muggles out of their affairs, and the WW tolerates such an organization so long as it remains unstable and easily thwarted by the likes of Dumbledore, LV, and teenage newcomers to the WW. Dubledore seems to be the embodiment of good in the WW, yet he cares less about his position within the WW's governing bodies than he does about chocolate frog cards. Perhaps he declined the post of Minister because the MoM really isn't all that important. "mg_mchenry" From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Aug 15 23:40:05 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 18:40:05 -0500 Subject: Thestral References: Message-ID: <3F3D6F55.2080605@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77491 I did a picture of a Thestral. It might not be exactly like people pictured them, but its how I see them. http://www.altpet.net/vrpet/wildspirits/images/puma/thestral1.jpg Jazmyn From summerdazeno1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 00:16:05 2003 From: summerdazeno1 at yahoo.com (summerdazeno1) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:16:05 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: <200308152108.36748.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77492 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, silmariel wrote: > > > I don't happen to think Snape is a vampire/dhampire, btw, but a big red > herring covering a real one. > > silmariel What if the real one just happened to be Dumbledore? Summer - suffering from improbable, but not imposible, delusions. From summerdazeno1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 00:42:32 2003 From: summerdazeno1 at yahoo.com (summerdazeno1) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:42:32 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks = Regulus Black ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77493 If this has been discussed before, I apologize. Somewhere in the "Stubby Boardman is Regulus Black" thread a post was made (which I can't find) stating that Regulus is a star positioned in the heart of the little lion constellation. (Forgive me, my knowledge of astronomy is abysmal.) But having said that, here is my rationalization: Crookshanks adores Sirius. There has been lots of speculation that Crookshanks may be an animagus. Crookshanks is a large ginger-colored cat(little lion?). Isn't it possible that Crookshanks and Regulus could be one and the same? Anyone? Just a thought. Summer - who really should get out more :) From mschnall at gmx.net Sat Aug 16 00:50:35 2003 From: mschnall at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 00:50:35 -0000 Subject: Fudge/Capture of Sirius (was "is there a reason?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77494 "maneelyfh" : > > Things that bother me about Fudge: > > 1) Puts the blame on Sirius for the Potter's, and > > Wormtails supposed death without a trial or asking > > for an explanation. "James Redmont" : > Fudge didn't do that...he had Percy's job when that > happened (see PoA, the scene in the Three Broomsticks > where Harry finds out what Black supposedly did.) Wellllllllll, Fudge wasn't the one (Crouch) who sentenced Sirius without a trial, but he was the first on the scene of the Ministry wizards who apprehended Sirius, and it might reasonably be surmised that his account would have been instrumental in convincing Crouch of Sirius' guilt. Moreover, if I recall correctly, Fudge was the one charged with modifying the memories of the witnesses, which would have put him in a unique position to conduct an investigation if he had wished to scratch beneath the surface. But the path of least resistance is always well-trod when Fudge is doing the walking. It's hard for me to characterize either Crouch's or Fudge's actions as evil, but they certainly make for bad government. -- Matt From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sat Aug 16 02:41:18 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 02:41:18 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77496 --- "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Is any one else out there tired of the differences in the UK and US > editions, merchandising, movies etc. etc. etc?? I am wondering what differences there are in other language ... esp the languages JKR uses to create spells. For example are ... ? - "SILENCIO" (silence) in Spanish books could be "Shut Up" - "REDUCIO" (reduce in size) becomes "Pip Squeek" - "TARANTALLEGRA" (jelly-legs Jinx) is an Italian dance. So that could become "Hokey Pokey" - "ALOHOMORA" in Hawaii becomes "Welcome Mora" Am I close? ... lol aussie From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 03:18:02 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 03:18:02 -0000 Subject: Lockhard and CoS; WAS Why the Order didn't destroy the prophecy in OoP In-Reply-To: <000a01c36398$94bae140$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77497 I wrote: > Am I the only person outa here who loved CoS ?! Joj replied : > While COS is my least favorite book, it does have my favorite line in it. > page 2, when Dudley tells Harry to "pass the frying pan". Harry replies "You've forgotten the magic word". I wish that had been in the movie! > Well, I must say that it also has my favorite line. I havn't the original book with me, only a translation of it so that actually I will translate the translation... Here it is. It goes something like this : Uncle Vernon asks his family to prepare some compliments to pay to his guests. Dudley : "I could say : "This morning at school we had to do a composition on our favourite hero Mr Mason, and you are the one I have chosen..." (^_^) AAm (who hasn't even quoted gilderoy Lockheart...). From miss_america_03 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 03:51:27 2003 From: miss_america_03 at yahoo.com (miss_america_03) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 03:51:27 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77498 There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments like that? --Winky P.S. I think Harry will lose his scar when he defeats Voldemort :) sorry had to throw that in From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 04:49:59 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:49:59 -0000 Subject: what is "the heart of it all"? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77499 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "alicepmint" wrote: > JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan > sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. And some of them even get quite close. So you > know, I would be pretty miffed after thirteen or fourteen years of > writing the books if someone just came along and said I think this > will happen in book seven. Because it is too late, I couldn't divert now, everything has been building up to it, and I've laid all my clues. Note to JKR: Even it someone did accurately guess what will happen in book 7, there would be countless postings discussing it, half a dozen alternate theories, and essays describing why it couldn't happen. I suspect your secrets are still safe. Ravenclaw Bookworm From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 04:58:07 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:58:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77500 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > > Harry may have his mother's eyes in shape and color, but the poor > > kid inherited the poor eyesight from Dad! > > Yet, the question remains ... is there no cure? > > YES. > > > And if Harry went to a muggle for glasses, do wizards go to > > specialists for their eyes? > > YES. > > > Do they purchase them at Lenswizards? > > YES. > > > And are the frames as expensive as muggle frames? > > NO. Eye glasses are the consummate RIP OFF. $350 for some wire and a > couple pieces of pastic; please. > > > Come to think of it, Harry probably got his glasses from Muggle > > Lenscrafters - - they keep on breaking. Wizard glasses are probably > > unbreakable. > > > > Pook > > bboy_mn: > You are aware, or perhaps not, that muggle can cure nearsightedness. > There is a method developed decades ago called the Bates method. > developed by William Bates. It is a proven method for curing > neardsightedness. > > So why don't we muggles us it? > > Why, because we are a society driven by commerce. There is no money to > be made in curing people. Especially, when those people can go home > and cure themselves after a few consultations, and there is nothing to > prevent those people from passing the information on to their friends > free of charge. > > Search Google for 'Bates Method' and you'll find hunderds of sites on > this subject. > > I suspect wizards can cure many vision problems, afterall, most vision > problems are just a change in the shape of the eyeball that prevents > the eye lense from sharply focusing on the retina. Magically forcing > the eyeball back into shape can't be that hard. > > But ask yourself this, why does Dumbledore still have a scar on his > knee? Why does Dumbledore still have a broken nose? Certainly those > could be fixed. I think partly it is because, they are battle scars, > momentos and signs of past experience. You see a scared and broken > wizard (Moody) and you respect him because you know that this is a > person who has been many place, seen many things, and has much life > experience. > > As far as most glasses we see, I get the sense that they are reading > glasses, it seems like I remember Dumbledore frequently looking over > the top of his glasses. As far as the eyes in general, Dumbledore is > +150 years old; wizards live and die, they are not immortal. Their > bodies do deteriorate with time, and apprently that normal > deterioratoin can not be completely undone. Wizard, like all living > things, eventually run out of time. > > There is also a vanity aspect of it. I think to some extent, the > presents of glasses enhances a wizard's or witches' appearance of > 'wisdom' and intelligence. Don't we automatically associate glasses > with Nerds? > > Just a few thoughts. > > bboy_mn Mlle Bienvenu (Me): I would like to point out that not all types of nearsightedness can be cured and that it's not always about the cynical capitalist conspiracy you paint. I am very nearsighted. In fact, I'm so nearsighted, that I am legally considered blind (think Mr. Magoo). If Harry's eye problem is related to retinal damage, then it is incurable by the Bates method. (Although I'm sure it works for those with eye shape problems) When they can cure that class of nearsightedness, they can make paraplegics walk and deaf people hear as well. If you haven't got enough functioning rods and cones to see clearly, you just don't have enough to see... Heh...sorry for going off like that...I guess you just touched a nerve...^_^ Lol... Mlle Bienvenu -who agrees that glasses are WAY too expensive in proportion to the raw materials used :)- From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 05:08:40 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 05:08:40 -0000 Subject: A!Kedavra (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77501 Here's the second (and title) filk from my filk-musical in progress, A!Kedavra (I'm in the process of filking the musical Oklahoma to GoF) A!Kedavra (GoF, Chap. 34) To the title tune of the musical Oklahoma! By Rodgers and Hammerstein Dedicated to Gail B. (who will always be a big fish in my book) THE SCENE: The newly resurrected LORD VOLDEMORT and his CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS prepare to rid the world of one HARRY JAMES POTTER. MCNAIR: He couldn't pick a better time to be reborn CRABBE: Just what good wizard folk all fear and hate. AVERY: Right now, little Potter's looking quite forlorn NOTT: Soon be livin' in a lifeless state CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS Lifeless state, let's reiterate! Here then is your ending for The Goblet of Fire Harry Potter joinin' the Invisible Choir Powers crushin' Harry as the June days fell Many a jinx and many a spell Many a hex and many a curse Only a one that is the most worse LUCIUS: A!Kedavra, when the green comes blazing from our wands When the stench of death fills every breath With aroma of which we're so fond. A!Kedavra, your effects are easy to predict First the vital signs are all flat-lined And the famous bucket then gets kicked CHORUS OF DEATH EATERS You know we belong to that crew We're the crew proud to serve You-Know-Who And when we say Yeow! Avada-yadda-yay! We're only sayin' Potter must die, A!Kedavra, A!Kedavra, A.K. VOLDEMORT A!Kedavra, all of those who my Death Eaters hate Meet a single blast and breathe their last And they're carted off to Peter's gate A!Kedavra, in a duel there is no substitute With a flick and swish, I'll get my wish And the Potter lad I'll execute VOLDEMORT & DEATH EATERS (to HARRY) You saw Cedric hit by my/his hex And the ex-Boy Who Lived, you are next! And when we say Yeow! Avada-yadda-yay! We're only sayin' Potter must die, A!Kedavra, A!Kedavra, A.K. (As the duel is about a begin, the DEs began chanting in the background) DEATH EATERS Davra, davra, davra, davra, davra, davra, davra, davra, davra .. (But as the duel commences, we hear another voice quickly swelling) FAWKES (off stage, at first, but then entering with incandescent color and light) Riori, riori, riori, riori, riori, riori, riori, riori, riori, riori, riori FAWKES: A!Priori, here are facts from which you may deduct First the wands connect and then eject Ghosts who'll tell Voldy he's out of luck GHOSTS OF JAMES & LILY, CEDRIC, BERTHA & FRANK BRYCE A!Priori, we are back thanks to these magic vibes Your victim list we all insist Shall not have the name "Harry" inscribed We have come here to rescue the boy And that boy you shall never destroy! (to HARRY) On count of three Yeow! We want you, kid, to flee! We're only sayin' Freedom for you, Harry Potter's, a Portkey away! HARRY: OK, I'll ? VOLDEMORT: ? Nay! ? HARRY: ? Stretch ? VOLDEMORT: ? No Damn Way! ? HARRY: Oh, Accio!!!! (HARRY Accio's the Portkey and vanishes) GHOSTS (joyously) Yeow! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 15 19:08:22 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 19:08:22 -0000 Subject: Justice in the WW (WAS: Re: Umbridge's great success) In-Reply-To: <004801c3635c$50751fa0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77502 Well... You have a point about Riddle's comment. I meant that the same Queen of England would be Queen of her magical subjects. From what I can see they still live in England and the English governement seems aware of them. I find the idea that the English crown would just allow the magical to form a seperate form of self-government within its borders highly improbable. But you may be right... If Riddle says so, it must be true. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > Golly: I found Rowling's Wizarding legal system to be bit of a straw man. > Ffred: > I'd have to disagree on that one. Once you decide (as JKR has) that the WW > is a bureaucracy, then that has all sorts of implications for justice, > lawmaking, and politics generally - I think she's drawn out those > implications very effectively. > > Cheers > > Ffred GOLLY: Well, then it is even more of straw man. If the point is to discuss the implications of corruption then in creating a government with a system to easily bent towards corrupt, you create a straw man. The independence of the judiciary was an important step towards reducing the interfering arm of state control over justice. It promotes the idea of natural justice or even the idea that justice is commonly applicable. There is a reason the system has evolved to look as it does. It dealt with weaknesses. The reason the UK had Chancery courts was because the courts of Common Law were too rigid and justice requited a way around such rules. In time, it became clear each system was so byzantine that almost none recieved justice and the system was altered yet again to combine the two courts. The system is constantly evolving both to maintain its ability deliver justice and to maintain its appearance of justice before the community it serves. If the WW is nothing more than some South American style dictatorship with its justice, rules and enforcement flowing all from one single source, its weaknesses are obvious and Rowling belabours them. Afterall nobody in the western democratic world thinks that is a super to run a government. She's hardly even making an important point about people and corruption. She's merely set up a straw man we all know is going to be unjust so she can then wag her finger at it and tell us how corruption harms others (and perhaps the soul). She's made it easy for readers to turn off the brain and not question why society fails to promote justice and harmony. Her society is so entirely unlike mine... The simple answer is that bad leaders - make the world bad. Then the grey area is gone. There good fathers like DD (ruler of Hogwarts) and bad fathers like Fudge or Crouch. If your leaders are like DD then you must trust them to do what is right. If your leaders are not DDesque - do not trust them. Hardly highbrow stuff - in fact it is stunningly conservative. Failure of our father figures to shelter and protect us. The whole idea gives me shivers .... The end result is also to paint witches and wizards as foolish (for trusting their government) or powerless against it. I don't get the feeling that is what I'm supposed to be getting though in the books. Golly From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 05:03:09 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 05:03:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77504 Joj: ... outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus > his glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his > > > vulnerability?" " > > > > Hmm. I'll have to think about what that could mean. > bboy_mn: > > >Well, we can associate glasses with eye, and the association with >eyes has always been to Harry having his mother's eyes, and for some >reason, we have always associated that with a strength or perhaps a >tool/weapon. The above could now imply that having Lily's eyes is > not a strength but a weakness. Severusbook4: > Perhaps it is his "vision" that is his weakness. Not his eyes > physically but what he can see with them. If he was unable to see > Sirius in the DOM, then he would not have put Sirius or his friends > at risk by trapsing off to save Sirius. (I know they were mental > projections of LV's) It seems that what he sees does get him in > trouble alot, the mirror, the spiders, etc. Maybe Harry will see the death of a friend too close to him, Ron or Hermione perhaps, and > this "vision" will push him too far to the brink of insanity. >Harry must be pretty close to a mental break down now, after all he >has been through and everything he knows (through the prophecy) that >is still to come. Talk about stress, geez. Me, Margaret: I've been thinking along those lines too, but not with the same result. I think what he sees is a weakness he will have to overcome. He sees, whether by fate or Volemort's design, but he lacks the maturity to comprehend and evaluate what he sees with any semblance of logical detachment. Look at how he reacts when Hermione just wants to make sure Sirius really isn't at Gimmauld Place? (sorry, don't have the book on me for pg #s) He refuses to think through the consequences and/or implications of what he sees. Yes, this is a sign of how much he loves Sirius, and cannot stand the idea of him being tortured. And Dumbledore has said that this is his greatest strength. But what if he is so swayed by believing what he sees, he cannot focus on his task (duty, destiny, whatever you want to call it) : to defeat Voldemort. Harry's greatest strength could inevitably lead to his greatest weakness, unless he learns to temper his reactions to other's manipulations. ~Margaret, wondering when people will realize seeing is not believing, believing is seeing. From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 05:29:24 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 05:29:24 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77505 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > > --Winky > > P.S. I think Harry will lose his scar when he defeats Voldemort :) > sorry had to throw that in Now that you mention it, yeah, I had the same reaction. It's not exactly breaking news that the Dursleys are horrible, but they always seemed cartoonishly so to me. That scene made me realize what a truly sad childhood Harry had. I found Snape's memories pretty depressing too, especially the one where his parents were fighting. I won't EVEN go into that pensieve scene. Dreadful. Allyson From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 16 05:15:58 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:15:58 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) References: Message-ID: <3F3DBE0E.7020906@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77506 Talisman wrote: > > 1) JKR has said about 100 times, and it has been repeated on this > list about 1000 times, that she is not writing her HP series for > children. She has also said that she expects the books to be readable by, and read by, children as young as 8 or 9. The books are certainly written in such a way to be understood by children. The only way I can see to resolve this contradiction is to conclude that when she says she is not writing for children, she means that she is not writing exclusively for children. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 16 05:51:10 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 01:51:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Legislation and Regulation (Was: Re: Umbridge's Great Success as a DADA Teacher) References: Message-ID: <3F3DC64E.1060502@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77507 feetmadeofclay wrote: > TM Sommers: > It is quite clear from the books that the MoM is not connected > at all with the rest of English government. The reports in the > Prophet indicated that some people were shocked that Fudge had told > the PM of Sirius's escape. Obviously, the PM is aware of the > existence of the wizarding world, but that must be a very closely > held secret-- the 30-year rule does not apply. Go back as far as you > like and you won't find a single reference to it in the PRO. If he > was aware of it, then they have to be connected someway. > > GOLLY: > > It says only that the PM is not intimately involved in the going ons > in the WW. It does not mean that they are not connected. The very > fact that on an important matter the MoM felt the need to connect up > with PM is important in my book. They at least work together on some > things. Working together is not the same as being subject to. France and Britain occasionally work together, but neither is subject to the other. In fact, most countries work together to apprehend dangerous criminals (when politics is not involved). > It may merely be an autonomous form of self government. Hardly > unheard of in the Commonwealth. In fact, Canada is flirting with > such ideas with Quebec. But there is no indication that the MoM accepts the Queen as head of state. The WW is not autonomous, it appears to be completely independent. > To make a parallel... Quebec has power over many issues that are > generally of federal jurisdiction like immigration. The MOM may be a > more extreme version of that. The difference is the Quebec is a distinct geographical entity. It would make no sense for the WW to secede from the UK. From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 06:28:57 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:28:57 -0000 Subject: Ron's academic achivements in book 5 In-Reply-To: <4411229643.20030815120621@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Friday, August 15, 2003, 11:51:03 AM, Przemyslaw wrote: > > > Therefore I respectfully submit notion of Ron being worse than Harry > > in > > classes is no longer valid. > > I actually don't recall Ron *ever* being much worse than > Harry in their classes. > > They seem pretty equal, overall. > i never got the impression while reading any of the books that Ron was flunking his classes - I thought He just hated homework and tests and isn't that (dare i say) normal? > Of course, Harry is the main character and has inherited all > this talent (or was some of it transferred from LV?) and can > do some things without even having to practice much (like flying, being a > keeper, defeating the Imperius Curse). He also receives a lot more > individual tutoring in some areas, while other students are > just not even thought capable at the same age. > > I'm sure the Patronus could be achieved by a lot more > students at a younger age, if they just received > instructions. > > I'm actually a little surprised how hard magic seems to come > to most students. Hermione seems to be the only one in their > year who can do anything on the first try. > Most kids seem to have trouble remembering simple > incantations, or follow a potion recipe written down right > in front of them, for some reason. > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne mailto:siskiou at e... This isn't exactly a response to what you said, but rather it was inspired by it. (sorry if thats against protocol). A major difference between Ron's experience of Hogwarts and H&H's experience is that the wizarding world is not new to Ron. Hermione and Harry (yes, after five years) are still getting a handle on the world of magic verses the muggle world they lived in most of their life. This is why Ron is so important to the trio. He is the eye of the wizarding world, he may not have the facts that Hermione does but he has the culture of it ingrained in him. Whats my point? Do I have one? Let me see... I guess i'll use this analogy - a student who lives in a place where education is a priviledge, taking full advantage of all a school has to offer, realizing that this is the key to their success and it is up to them to make the most of it - vs- a student who knows that they'll have to go to school, taking for granted the fact that they will eventually graduate, and hoping that they won't get in trouble if they fail one or two classes. A large part of Hermione's achievements are due to her personality and natural ability, but also her desire to make the most of this opportunity she was given. She truly realizes that going to Hogwarts is a priviledge, I think this is what sets her apart from the rest. Other students, I'm sure, have as much ability as Hermione but they may be missing that last little bit to push them. Why would Ron read Hogwarts a history anyway? He's the 8th Weasley to go to Hogwarts, I'm sure he heard enough about Hogwarts to write a book of his own - or so he may think. And the only way to mess up a potion that is right in front of you (unless you're Neville) is if you weren't paying attention- a very easy thing to do in a class you hate/you're just taking because you have to. -QoE From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 06:34:22 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 22:34:22 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030815222929.00ae0e08@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 77509 At 11:46 PM 8/14/2003 +0000, Pruneau wrote: >But he chose the Patronus, so I assume that very few people (only >Lupin, Hermione, and maybe Snape, Ron and Sirius) knew it was a >stag. So IMHO, the Quidditch Patronus was just a (large) silvery >wisp of vapour. Actually, at the end of PoA Dumbledore remarks on noting the curious form of Harry's patronus at the match after he learns of James's Animagus form. So by that point in time Harry's Patronus was a stag and had a form...else DD could not have noted it and seen the connection between the patronus and James. From dicentra at xmission.com Sat Aug 16 06:47:39 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:47:39 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Scriptwriting for Pleasure and Profit (1 of 2) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77510 This post was originally presented at Nimbus 2003 on July 19th, 2003 under the title "Scriptwriting for Pleasure and Profit: The Power of the Written Word in *Harry Potter*." This version includes some extra stuff that time did not permit. <*((>< <*((>< <*((>< <*((>< <*((>< <*((>< <*((>< <*((>< <*((>< Dicentra stood anxiously on the shore of Theory Bay, her toes curling in the sand. With her hand over her eyes, she scanned the water, looking for the familiar stumbling gait of Stoned!Harry amid the flotilla of theories that had survived the latest ravages of Hurricane Jo. To her left was the perennially seaworthy destroyer Big Bang, which represents the theory that JKR prefers to use highly dramatic, cinematic, or even melodramatic events to serve as catalytic turning points in her characters' lives. Farther out was the popular ship LOLLIPOPS, which posits that Snape once had a crush on Lily. Barely visible on the shore, a few meters away, was the wreckage of the Fourth Man hovercraft, which once postulated that the fourth man convicted with Barty Crouch Jr. was none other than the hapless Avery from the graveyard scene. Finally, Dicentra saw someone emerge from behind the Big Bang, trip on his robes and fall face-first onto the water's surface. Stoned!Harry -- the personification of the theory that Harry is the living embodiment of the Philosopher's Stone and therefore has the potential for immortality -- is able to walk on water, but because he's, well, stoned, he tends to be a little clumsy. As Harry stumbled toward the shore, Dicentra glared at him, hands on hips. He swerved to avoid running straight into her. "Hey!" she said, grabbing a handful of Stoned!Harry's robes. "You promised you'd help." "Wha...?" He turned around and stared at her blankly. "Just come with me," she said, dragging Stoned!Harry up toward the Canon Museum, the only structure in Theory Bay that grows every time Hurricane Jo sweeps through. Its shiny new fifth story glinted in the sunlight. Once at the museum, Dicentra took Stoned!Harry straight down into the basement and stopped expectantly at a door marked "Prop Room." "I don't have the key," she explained. Stoned!Harry obliged with a quick Alohomora and they went inside. They entered an enormous room filled with shelves from floor to ceiling, all of them populated with objects found in canon. "See, I promised I'd put up a new exhibit in that dusty display case near the men's room," Dicentra explained. "So I have to go through all this stuff and find some things that have a common thread. Put that down...!" Stoned!Harry had found a half-filled box of Bertie Bott's Every Flavour Beans and was poking through it. "You don't know where those have been. Now help me find something interesting." Dicentra began to walk slowly down the aisles, looking at the objects on the shelves. She saw neatly folded school uniforms, hedgehogs in various stages of becoming pincushions, stacks of golden dishes, telescopes, glass vials... "Ah, here's something." She plucked at something fluid and silvery gray, which slithered to the floor and lay there in gleaming folds. "That's my invisibility cloak," whispered Stoned!Harry. "Dumbledore gave it to me." Dicentra stowed it back on the shelf. "You're not the real Harry," she said under her breath, and not for the first time. She had tried to explain to Stoned!Harry that he was only a theory, not a canonical character, but he was always too dazed to understand the difference. Dicentra continued down to the end of that aisle, then up the next. Stoned!Harry wandered off into another aisle. She found broomsticks, cages, cauldrons, candlesticks, inkpots, quills. Just as she was lifting the visor on a suit of armor, she heard a loud crash. "What have you done now?" she called out as she strode off toward the noise. A muffled voice answered, "puhfuh." Dicentra stopped at the end of the aisle whence the noise came and saw an enormous pile of paper, some of it moving slightly. It appeared that at least a dozen boxes had tumbled from the shelves and emptied themselves directly on top of him. She hurried over and began to dig through the papers until Stoned!Harry's head emerged from the pile. "Papers!" he cried out. "You don't say," Dicentra said, lips pursed. "Now we're going to have to put all these back where they belong. Not that way!" She grabbed the wand that Stoned!Harry had just begun to wave. "You don't even know where they all belong. We're going to have to sort through them by hand." Pouting slightly, Stoned!Harry climbed out of the pile and plopped down on the floor. He poked at the paper with his wand, causing an avalanche of envelopes. "Don't do that either!" Dicentra protested. "Just look through them and see where they go." "They're all the same," said Stoned!Harry, petulantly. "They all go in the same place." "What do you mean they're all the same?" Dicentra said, looking up. "They're all like this." He held up an envelope and passed it to her. The envelope was unopened, but Dicentra knew immediately what was inside. It was thick and heavy, made of yellowish parchment, and the address was written in emerald-green ink. There was no stamp. On the other side of the envelope was a purple wax seal bearing a coat of arms: a lion, an eagle, a badger, and a snake surrounding a large letter H. The address read: Mr. Harry Potter The Cupboard under the Stairs 4 Privet Drive Little Whinging Surrey "Those are all my letters," said Stoned!Harry. "The first letters I ever got." "Of course," mused Dicentra. "These are the Letters From No One, from *Philosopher's Stone*." "I didn't even know I was a wizard then," added Stoned!Harry. "Hey!" He reached up into the pile and plucked out a small slip of paper from near the top. "I bet there's only one of these." Dicentra took the paper from his hand. It was small strip of parchment, slightly singed at the edges, with the words "Harry Potter" scrawled on one side. "That's the one that came out of the goblet of fire, isn't it?" he said. "I sure wish I never saw that one. It caused nothing but trouble for me." "Everything causes Harry nothing but trouble," said Dicentra absently, staring hard at the envelope and the parchment. "Wait a minute," she said slowly. "Both of these papers cause something awfully big to happen, don't they?" "I suppose so," Stoned!Harry shrugged. "I wonder how many other of these papers make something big happen." She immediately grabbed a sheaf of papers off the pile and began to rifle through them. "Come on, help me find more important papers. I think I've got an idea for the display." As Dicentra sorted through a stack of Transfiguration exams, third-year class schedules, and History of Magic essays, another piece of paper fell into her lap. It was a clipping from the *Daily Prophet*, folded neatly, but the paper was dirty and worn thin at the folds. Gingerly, she opened it up. It was a photo of an Egyptian pyramid. The headline beneath it read, "Ministry of Magic Employee Scoops Grand Prize." "Hey, isn't this the clipping Ron sends to Harry?" she asked Stoned!Harry. "No," he said, squinting at it. "The one Ron gave me wasn't all icky like that. And you could see Ron's family." Dicentra looked at the photo again. The head of Percy Weasley poked into the frame from the left side of the picture. He frowned and disappeared from view, only to return a moment later dragging George and Ron with him. Fred soon followed, and Molly, Arthur, and Ginny hurried in from the right side of the frame. They posed again for their group photo, Percy donning his fez and Ron placing Scabbers on his shoulder. "You mean like this," she said, holding up the clipping again. "Yeah," said Stoned!Harry, "but it still looks too old." "Oh, I know!" she exclaimed. "This is the clipping that Sirius Black carries with him all through *Prisoner of Azkaban*." She cradled it reverently in her hands. "I think this one most definitely qualifies as causing something big to happen. I mean, if it weren't for this, Sirius never would have found it in him to escape." She set it down beside the parchment scrap and the admission letter. Stoned!Harry leaned over the pile to look at the papers in front of Dicentra. "One from the first year, one from the third year, and one from the fourth year," he observed. "Hey, you're right," she said. And then after a moment, "Galloping gargoyles, do you know what these three pieces of paper have in common? They're what kick off the action of each novel. Look," she said, picking up the envelope. "The plot of *Philosopher's Stone* doesn't really start until Harry gets his letter from Hogwarts. The central mystery of *Prisoner of Azkaban* begins when Sirius sees this article in the *Daily Prophet*. And when this scrap of paper pops out, that's when the action of *Goblet of Fire* really starts." Stoned!Harry stared blankly at her. "So?" "So? Don't you get it? This is a pattern! Pieces of paper are the catalyst for all of Harry's adventures!" "What about my second year?" "Oh. Yeah," Dicentra said, frowning. "Let's see. When does the action of *Chamber of Secrets* start?" "With the pudding," said Stoned!Harry, a wistful look on his face. "Not with the pudding," sighed Dicentra. "I got a letter because of the pudding," he persisted. "That's right -- the letter from Mafalda Hopkirk warning him about the use of magic outside of school. But I don't think that really kicks off the action. I mean, the central mystery of the novel is who is the Heir of Slytherin and where is the Chamber of Secrets. That letter has nothing to do with it." Stoned!Harry stood suddenly and jabbed his wand in the air, shouting, "The Chamber of Secrets has been opened! Enemies of the Heir, Beware!" Some purple sparks shot out of his wand. "Oh, sit down," said Dicentra, annoyed. She resumed digging through the pile of papers, but stopped. "Wait," she said. "That is when the action began in *Chamber of Secrets*. When they see the handwriting on the wall. That's what kicks off the central mystery." "It's not paper," Stoned!Harry said cheekily. "No, but it is writing," said Dicentra. "*That's* it then. It's not the paper that kicks off the action, but the writing. Writing is the key, regardless of whether it's on paper or not. Writing is what makes things happen in the Potterverse." An hour later, Dicentra sat surrounded by neat stacks of parchment. "OK," she said to herself, "I think I've got it all figured out. Hey!" she kicked Stoned!Harry's foot; he sat up suddenly from where he had been napping on the floor. "Check this out; I was right about the papers..." but she trailed off when she saw Stoned!Harry's face. He was staring wide-eyed at something above and behind her, his mouth hanging open. Dicentra wheeled around to see two figures standing behind her. She felt the blood drain from her face as she realized who they were. "Hey, whatcha doin'?" boomed one of them. Captain Cindy strode over to the piles of parchment, recklessly grabbed a handful, and began to sift through them, tossing them randomly on the floor. Cindy was captain of the Big Bang and had a reputation as one of the most formidable denizens of Theory Bay. She made her crewmembers scrub the deck of the Big Bang with toothbrushes, tried to drown a theory she didn't like, tossed the local tavern when she encountered a theory she thought was too complicated, and spectacularly failed her anger management class. Tucked underneath one arm was her trademark Big Paddle, which everyone knew to stay clear of. "Yeah, Dicey, what gives?" said Elkins, who sat down next to Dicentra and began to poke through the piles. Elkins was another of the more formidable denizens of the bay but for different reasons. Elkins had delivered a three-day Memory Charm Symposium in the basement of the Canon Museum, a nine-part treatise on the Crouch family saga, used words like "subsumption" and "bildungsroman" and "realpolitik" without blinking, and frequently got away with subversive readings of canon. Dicentra finally found her voice. "You guys, put that stuff back," she squeaked. "Back where?" said Cindy, "on the floor, where I found it? Well, OK." She opened her hand and let the parchment drop to the floor. "Oh look," said Elkins. "Here are all those chocolate frog cards. A couple of Dumbledores, some Circes and a Merlin... what's all this about, Dicey? What are you doing down here." "Nothing," Dicentra said, shortly. "Doesn't look like nothing to me," said Cindy as she sat herself down right next to Stoned!Harry, who, to her great amusement, slid away from her. "Actually, it looks like you're trying to put together an exhibit for that dusty old display case by the men's room." "They told us at the front desk why you were down here," Elkins said, grinning at Dicentra's startled expression. "So it's about parchment, is it?" asked Cindy. "Sort of," said Dicentra, relaxing only a little. "I think I've found a pattern. See, in each book, the action is kicked off by something somebody wrote." She held up the admission letter, the clipping of the Weasleys in Egypt, and the singed scrap. "In *Chamber of Secrets*, it's the handwriting on the wall that starts it all." Elkins looked mildly impressed. "Say, you're right. Who knew?" "What about *Order of the Phoenix*?" smirked Cindy. "Which bit of writing kicks off the action there -- the Muggle newspapers Harry pulls out of the dumpsters?" "Trick question," replied Dicentra. "*Order of the Phoenix* doesn't have a central mystery like the first four. The action is kicked off by the return of Voldemort in *Goblet of Fire*." "What about the rest of the papers, Dicey?" said Elkins quickly, seeing Cindy's hands tighten around her Paddle. "I figure that the other important moments are provoked by written material," she continued. "I've got it... well, I had it sorted by book..." "Say no more," said Cindy, grabbing Stoned!Harry's wand and magicking the paper back into place. Without missing a beat, Elkins grabbed the stack nearest her, which contained the papers from *Philosopher's Stone*. "Well, here's the letter that Hagrid presents to the goblins at Gringotts, authorizing the stone's retrieval from the vault," she said. "Yeah, that's a real turning point in the story," said Cindy, barely concealing the sarcasm in her voice. "And here are the letters between Ron and his brother Charlie when they arrange to send Norbert to Romania," Elkins continued. "A moment so pivotal it didn't even make it into the movie," Cindy said, rolling her eyes. "Hey, they leave pivotal scenes out of the movies all the time," protested Dicentra. "Like that one from Chamber of Secrets where they figure out that Tom Riddle was around the last time the chamber was opened, and the ones that show Harry wondering if he..." "The chocolate frog cards are pretty important," interrupted Elkins, as she fanned them out in her hand. "Yes, the frog cards are important," said Dicentra. "They are one of the clues that help the Trio figure out what is hidden under the trap door. And so are these..." she pulled some papers from the stack Elkins was holding. "Look, here's the one that came with the invisibility cloak, the one that says 'Use it well,' and the other one that says 'Just in case.' And this article in the Daily Prophet about the break-in at Gringotts: it says the break-in happened on July 31st, so that leads Harry to wonder if the thief was looking for whatever Hagrid took from vault 713." "Oh yeah?" challenged Cindy. "What about the first clue: the three-headed dog? That wasn't writing." Dicentra sat, dumbfounded; her eyes began to well up with tears. "It's ok, Dicey," Elkins said, patting her gently on the shoulder. "You just have to adjust your theory a little. I think you're onto something. There is a preponderance of written material in the series. It's just a matter of discovering what it means." Elkins returned to the papers in her hand. "Let's look at some more. Ok, here's the riddle for Snape's potions..." She held up the roll of paper with the logic puzzle. "It's the final obstacle before Harry finds the Stone... and what's this?" She unrolled a large piece of tissue paper. "Erised stra ehru oyt...?" "Oh, I made a rubbing of the inscription on the Mirror of Erised," Dicentra explained. "It's up in one of the dioramas upstairs." Elkins had two pieces of paper left in her hands. One was an envelope, the other a small piece of rolled parchment. "I've never seen those before," said Stoned!Harry in a very, very small voice as he edged away from Cindy. "No I don't expect you would have," said Dicentra, forgetting for a moment that he was not really Harry. "The envelope is the letter that Dumbledore wrote to the Dursleys and left on the doorstep with you; the other is the note that was supposedly from the Ministry of Magic, calling Dumbledore away from Hogwarts on urgent business." "Well, hey!" said Cindy jovially, as she put Stoned!Harry in a headlock and pulled him closer. "That looks like a good exhibit to me, eh Stoner?" She gave him a furious noogie before releasing him. Elkins frowned. "No, I don't think we've figured this out yet. Maybe we need to group them differently. But according to what...?" For a moment, there was silence. Elkins stared at the papers in front of her, Dicentra tried not to look at Stoned!Harry, who was sullenly combing his fingers through his hair; Cindy began to balance her Big Paddle on one finger. "By author!" Elkins said, suddenly. Stoned!Harry jumped a little at the sound of her voice. Elkins began to sort the papers and soon had them in the order she wanted. "All right, now," said Elkins. "In this largest pile are things written by Dumbledore: the letter to the Dursleys, the letter authorizing the Stone's removal from Gringott's, and the two notes that accompanied the invisibility cloak." "What about the Hogwarts acceptance letter?" asked Dicentra. "Well, that was signed by McGonagall," said Elkins. "But with Dumbledore's blessing," Dicentra persisted, "so I think it should go with his letters." "Fine by me," said Elkins, moving the letter. Dicentra stared at the Dumbledore pile for a moment, then gasped loudly. "Oh! I know what it is!" she said excitedly. "A long time ago I posted something on Harry Potter for Grownups about Dumbledore's role in *Philosopher's Stone*. Get it for me, will you?" she said, turning to Stoned!Harry. Without taking his eyes off Cindy, Stoned!Harry conjured document 33289 from Jan. 12, 2002. Cindy intercepted it as he passed it to Dicentra. "Give me that," she barked. "Lessee... 'I'd like to propose a theory that builds on all that's been said and then goes one step further: The spells were breakable by first-year students because Dumbledore MEANT for Harry to face Voldemort. And in fact, most of the events of *Philosopher's Stone* were engineered by Dumbledore for Harry's benefit. (Sincere apologies if this very argument has been made before, but parsing 33,000 posts to find out was a bit daunting.)' "Ha!" she crowed. "It's the 'Sorry if this has been discussed before but...' line! What a newbie!" "Hey!" Dicentra protested, trying to retrieve the document and failing. "Everyone's a newbie once." She turned to Stoned!Harry. "Get me another copy, would you?" He obliged, and Dicentra sat back with the document, narrowing her eyes at Cindy. "Listen to what Harry concludes after his adventure," Dicentra continued. "Harry says '"I think he sort of wanted to give me a chance. I think he knows more or less everything that goes on here, you know. I reckon he had a pretty good idea we were going to try, and instead of stopping us, he just taught us enough to help. I don't think it was an accident he let me find out how the mirror worked. It's almost like he thought I had the right to face Voldemort if I could...."' "See, Dumbledore is grooming Harry to play a particular role," Dicentra explained. "Harry isn't fully aware of what it is, but you know Dumbledore is looking at a much larger picture than Harry is." "And that is related to these papers how?" Cindy arched her eyebrows. "He uses these papers to assign Harry his role," said Elkins suddenly, eyes widening. "It's as if Harry were an actor in a play, but instead of seeing the whole script up front, he gets these occasional cues from backstage. Look!" She held up the Hogwarts admission letter. "What kind of change did receiving this letter effect in Harry? He went from being an ordinary kid in lousy circumstances to a wizard who belonged to a whole different world. And not just any wizard, either. He became The Boy Who Lived. New life, new role." "Right!" said Dicentra, "but it didn't end there." She read again from the document. "'It cannot be a coincidence that Harry is with Hagrid when he recovers the Stone. Dumbledore sends Hagrid to collect Harry and get the Stone at the same time.' See, that's where this comes in," she said, holding up the letter Hagrid took to Gringotts. "Harry doesn't know it at the time, but Dumbledore is setting him up by letting him be privy to the existence of the Stone." Elkins took the document from Dicentra and read, "'Dumbledore gave Harry the Cloak of Invisibility for Christmas, telling him to "use it wisely." What could that mean except "go roaming about the school after hours to figure out this mystery"?' "That's right," she mused. "And he gave Harry the cloak not once but twice, both times with a mysterious note giving Harry implicit permission to use the cloak in solving the mystery. He was definitely using written materials to assign Harry his role." "What about this?" said Cindy, holding up the letter to the Dursleys. "Fat lot of good this did. Harry was supposed to know all of this stuff but the Dursleys never told him." "They never wanted me to get the letters from Hogwarts, either," piped up Stoned!Harry. "Ladies and gentlemen, I think we have a function for the Dursleys," Elkins said dramatically. "Just as Dumbledore uses writing to assign Harry his role, the Dursleys suppress writing to keep Harry from fulfilling his destiny." Cindy snorted. "Well, that's nice and all, but you've forgotten something. The item that is explicitly associated with passing out roles has nothing to do with paper or writing: the Sorting Hat." Elkins let out her breath in a long, low hiss. Dicentra rubbed her chin thoughtfully. Stoned!Harry summoned the hat from a shelf two rows away and began to play with it. "Well, the hat is an object in a book and is therefore a literary construct," said Dicentra, hesitantly. "So it's made up of words." "Nice try, but no dice, Dicey," said Cindy, staring fixedly at Dicentra, who averted her gaze and pretended to be interested in her fingernails. "You got us there," said Elkins, "but that's ok. You could always argue that the hat isn't Dumbledore's tool. After all, everyone gets sorted, and what happens between Harry and the hat is, well, between Harry and the hat. Dumbledore knows about it, but he didn't tell either the hat or Harry what to do." "Maybe not every single thing that assigns Harry his role is written matter, but that doesn't mean the theory isn't valid," Dicentra said, regaining a modicum of confidence. "What if we find stuff in the other books to show how Harry gets his role handed to him in writing. Would that convince you at all?" "Humph," said Cindy, crossing her arms defiantly. "Well," said Elkins, clapping her hands cheerfully. "That sounds like a yes. On to Chamber of Secrets." She scooted the pile toward Dicentra. "Your turn." "This pile seems a little bigger than the last," Dicentra observed. "Longer book," snarled Cindy. Dicentra picked up a bundle of unopened letters. "These are all addressed to Harry." "Those are *mine*," said Stoned!Harry, lunging at them. "Gimme." Dicentra held them out of his reach. "These are the letters that Dobby intercepted after Harry's first year at Hogwarts," she said, laughing. "Dobby never gave them to Harry, so I won't give them to you." Stoned!Harry sat back down sulkily, grabbed the Sorting Hat, and jammed it down on his head so far it almost covered his chin. "Another instance of someone trying to manipulate Harry by keeping written material away from him," observed Elkins. "They're not from Dumbledore," said Cindy in a sarcastic monotone. "They don't have to be," retorted Elkins. "The important part is that Dobby was trying to alter Harry's role by keeping the letters from him, almost an echo of what the Dursleys did to him in Philosopher's Stone." "The Dursleys deny him writing in this book, too," said Dicentra. "They won't let Hedwig out of her cage because they're afraid Harry will send letters to his friends at 'that freak place,' as Dudley calls it." "See if you can find things written by Dumbledore," suggested Elkins. Dicentra shuffled through the pile and produced a handful of identical envelopes addressed to Harry and the five youngest Weasleys. "These are the letters from Hogwarts with the list of textbooks for the next year. They were all delivered to the Burrow, and Arthur observes that Dumbledore knows where Harry is." "So Dumbledore presents Harry with his new role as a second-year student," grumbled Cindy. "Big whoop." "Well, sometimes a letter is just a letter," replied Dicentra. "I don't think this one really counts, do you think?" "Probably not," replied Elkins. "See if you can find writing that plays a larger role in Harry's life." "There aren't any more from Dumbledore," Dicentra said slowly. "But here's one *for* Dumbledore." She produced a roll of parchment from the stack. "The order of suspension from Lucius Malfoy," said Elkins. "Looks like ol' Lucius is trying to write Dumbledore's role for him." "He *did* write it," said Dicentra. "That is, until these came along." She pulled out a handful of envelopes and parchment scraps. "I don't recognize the names of the senders, but they're all asking Dumbledore to return to Hogwarts at once. Which he does." "Well, there you go," said Elkins triumphantly. "Harry's not the only one whose role is given to him in writing." "No kidding," said Dicentra quietly, pulling out a small, black-covered book with a ragged puncture hole through the center. "That's Tom Riddle's diary," said Cindy, sitting bolt upright. "Get that out of here." "Don't worry: this is the one from the end of the book," said Dicentra, poking her finger through the hole. "Tom's not in it anymore." "I don't care; it creeps me out. Get rid of it." "Actually, Dicey, it kinda creeps me out, too," said Elkins, leaning away from her. "I mean, talk about having your role written for you..." "I think this should be at the center of the exhibit," Dicentra continued, flipping through what was left of the pages. "Of all the written material in the series, this diary is most emblematic of one character trying to manipulate another by writing a role for that character. Poor Ginny: she just thought she had found a sympathetic interlocutor, when in reality Tom Riddle's memory was writing her a role she never would have consciously accepted." "But did he tell her to open the Chamber through writing or did he simply control her mind while she was in a trance?" Elkins asked, still edging away from the book. "He never explains that," said Dicentra, "but he does get her to pour her soul out to him by telling her what she wants to hear. I mean, read. So in some ways she unwittingly wrote a role for herself in the diary, too. And then later, Harry gets pulled in by Tom's writing, though Tom used writing to lie to Harry about who opened the Chamber the last time. In both cases, it was an eerie collaboration between innocence and evil that resulted in..." "A lame collaboration, you mean," Cindy interrupted. "All those people were supposed to have been *killed* by the basilisk, but they were only petrified, and early on we learn that they'll eventually be healed. Yawn! And don't even get me started on that idiot Gilderoy Lockhart..." "Speaking of people who write their own roles..." Dicentra passed the diary to Stoned!Harry, who promptly removed one of his socks and stuffed the diary into it. "Lockhart's whole identity is contained in his collected works. He had decided at some point that he wanted to play the role of the fearless, famous fighter of Dark forces, but instead of actually doing the fighting, he wrote about it, stealing experiences from others and substituting his name for theirs." "And because it's in writing -- published writing -- it legitimizes his claim," Elkins added. "Writing is often much more authoritative than speech, especially when the writing comes between the pages of a bound book. People are more likely to trust what has been published than what they merely hear." "Exactly," Dicentra said. "Once he had his supposed deeds published, he could step into his role. And once people read his books, they played their roles as the adoring crowd, further supporting his written, though fraudulent, role." Dicentra paused to gather up the Lockhart books that Stoned!Harry had summoned while she and Elkins were speaking. She set them aside and began to sort through the pile for Chamber of Secrets again. "Looks like writing provides the clues to solve the central mystery again," said Cindy, carefully. "That page Hermione tears out of a library book--very out of character for her, if you ask me--and the word 'pipes' that she writes on the scrap, are what clinch it eventually." "I guess so," said Dicentra, slowly, "but then there's what Aragog said, what Tom Riddle showed, and what Moaning Myrtle told them. I'd call it pretty even between written, verbal, and visual in this case." "Ha!" Cindy shouted. "Writing doesn't furnish even half of the clues to the mystery. I got you!" "I don't know about that," said Elkins, who had been quietly thinking. "If we go back to the premise that Harry's role comes to him as written cues, we can find a clearer pattern. So far, we've identified the letters Dobby intercepted, the Dursleys not letting Hedwig fly, and Tom Riddle's diary..." "Oh look," said Cindy dryly, as she pulled a handful of lilac-colored envelopes out of the pile, the addresses written in purple ink. "Here are all those envelopes Harry addressed for Lockhart. What does this tell us? Why, it tells us that Lockhart also assigned Harry a role... as cheap slave labor." Dicentra and Elkins grinned and Stoned!Harry snorted loudly from underneath the Sorting Hat. "Actually, Lockhart spent quite a bit of time trying to assign Harry a role" said Elkins, chuckling, "but I don't think that was exactly it. Lockhart's thematic role in *Chamber of Secrets* is the same as Colin Creevey's: to present two unsavory aspects of fame. Lockhart is the preening, self-absorbed lover of fame, and Colin is the lover of the famous. Lockhart believes that he can tutor Harry in how to be properly famous, and one of those tutoring moments is when Harry does detention addressing those envelopes. Harry isn't the only one writing in that instance: Lockhart is autographing photos of himself, something only a celebrity does. And yet on two previous occasions, Colin pesters Harry for an autograph and Harry flatly refuses. I think we can safely say that autographing photos symbolizes embracing fame, and refusing to autograph means refusing fame. In that simple act of writing -- or lack thereof -- we get the essence of Harry's attitude toward fame." Dicentra applauded. "Well done, Elk! Now, here are two more letters I found while you were talking. Filch's Kwikspell letter and Nearly Headless Nick's letter from Sir Patrick Delaney-Podmore. In both cases, the letters identify the recipient as someone who cannot assume a particular role. Nearly Headless Nick's letter tells him that he is not qualified to join the Headless Hunt, and the Kwikspell letter identifies Filch as a Squib. Both Nick and Filch deeply resent the fact that they have been excluded, and both see the letters as evidence of their disgrace." "There are only a few more pieces of paper left," Elkins said, picking them up, "but I don't know what kind of significance they have. Here we have the letter from Mafalda Hopkirk informing Harry that they know about the hovering charm and that if he does it again he'll be expelled..." "That's a set-up for later events: Harry thinks he has to assume the role of renegade when he blows up Aunt Marge," said Dicentra. "And then when he produces the Patronus in Order of the Phoenix, he gets a second letter from Mafalda Hopkirk telling him he's been expelled. "Here's Ron's Howler..." Elkins held up a red envelope sandwiched between two panes of glass and tied tightly with about a mile of twine. "To showing the consequences of stealing the car," Dicentra said, "but I don't think it assigns a role." "The note from Snape authorizing the Slytherins to use the Quidditch pitch..." "That is an example of the authority of written material," said Dicentra. "Because Snape himself writes the note, it has a kind of proxy value: it's the same as if he were standing there saying it. And yet it's not assigning anyone a role." "The note from Lockhart authorizing Hermione to check out Moste Potente Potions..." "...same as the note from Snape.." "A few clippings from the Daily Prophet. This one is about Muggles seeing the flying Ford Anglia and this other one is about Arthur Weasley getting into trouble for bewitching it in the first place..." "Backstory!" Cindy shouted, brandishing her Big Paddle. "That's just backstory -- information. Don't even think about making it more important than that." "I wouldn't dream of it," said Dicentra, eyeing Cindy's paddle, "because you're right. In this case, that's all it is: backstory. But I can't promise I won't find meaning in Daily Prophet articles in the next three books." Cindy frowned. "Are you done yet?" she asked Elkins. "Just these two scraps of parchment with the Dursley's phone number on it." "And I suppose you're going to tell us that they represent Harry's first tentative attempts to reconcile his Muggle and wizard worlds," Cindy said sarcastically. "Well, yeah," said Elkins, surprised. "He's asking Hermione and Ron to call. That's more invasive than a letter." "I just didn't want my letters to get intercepted again," said Stoned!Harry, pulling off the Sorting Hat. "See," said Cindy. "Practical function only. No need to turn it all into this symbolic literary crap." "Whatever," muttered Elkins. "You've forgotten something," Dicentra blurted out. "The writing on the wall. After Tom Riddle's diary, that's the most important writing in the book." "Oh yeah," said Elkins, her eyes glinting. "That has Biblical overtones, too." "Biblical?" said Cindy, eyebrows arched. "I thought it was just that old saying about reading the writing on the wall, when you can see you're goin' down because you're picking up on clues from the situation." "That saying came from an incident in the Old Testament," said Dicentra, motioning to Stoned!Harry to conjure a Bible. "It's right here in the book of Daniel, chapter 5. Belshazzar, the king of Babylon, is having a big feast with his cronies, and they're using the sacred vessels that his father took from the temple when he conquered Jerusalem. Suddenly, they see a hand appear and write something on the wall that they can't understand. They bring in Daniel, who interprets it. It says, in part, 'thou art weighed in the balances and found wanting.' That very night, the Persians conquer Babylon." "'Enemies of the Heir, beware,' carries a similar message," explained Elkins. "It also says 'You're goin' down.' It's another example of how Rowling borrows imagery from outside sources and makes it fit her own needs." "What does that have to do with assigning roles?" demanded Cindy. "It forces the students to think of themselves as 'pure-bloods' and muggleborns," said Dicentra. "That's its first role-creating function. It also seems to put Harry in the role of bad guy, to the point that Harry himself wonders if he is the Heir of Slytherin. Ultimately, it launches Harry into his inevitable role as Hero Who Saves The Day." "WooHoo!" cried Elkins. "We've made it through *Chamber of Secrets*." "No, you haven't," said Cindy darkly. "There's one more." She grabbed Stoned!Harry's wand and wrote in the air: Tom Marvolo Riddle. "Of course," said Elkins. "Tom created the name for his new identity by manipulating the letters of his given name. It's a unique way of using writing to create a role." "Can we go now?" said Cindy impatiently. "But there are three more books to go!" protested Elkins. "Fine, you play with your papers; I'm going to the beach." Cindy got up and left the room. ********** Continued in the next message... ********** --Dicentra spectabilis From dicentra at xmission.com Sat Aug 16 06:48:11 2003 From: dicentra at xmission.com (Dicentra spectabilis) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:48:11 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Scriptwriting for Pleasure and Profit (2 of 2) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77511 Continued from post #77510 ************* Stoned!Harry relaxed visibly and Dicentra let out a slow breath. She pushed the pile for *Prisoner of Azkaban* toward Elkins. "Your turn." "Ok, what is going on with Harry during *Prisoner of Azkaban*," she murmured to herself as she sifted through the papers. "The threat of Sirius Black on the periphery," said Dicentra. "That's provoked by this." She held up the clipping of the Weasleys in Egypt. "Sirius assumes the role of protector when he sees Scabbers on Ron's shoulder." "Right," said Elkins, "and Harry isn't allowed to go to Hogsmeade because of this." She produced the unsigned permission slip. "Once again, the Dursleys function is to negate writing." "But he does get into Hogsmeade," said Dicentra, "because of another piece of writing." "And what a piece of writing it is," said Elkins, as she pulled a blank piece of parchment from the middle of the pile. She placed it in front of Stoned!Harry, who tapped it with his wand and swore he was up to no good. The Marauder's Map unfurled. "It's not hard to identify this as the assignment of a role," she mused. "The twins decide to assign Harry the role of rule-breaking adventurer, so they give him this." "And *they* had assumed that role when they first stole the map from Filch's office," added Dicentra. "A role that the original manufacturers of the map intended for anyone who possessed it." "Possessed being the operative term," said Elkins. "There's evidence that the map can exercise a little undue influence over its owner. I can't help but think that the Twins didn't make the decision to give it to Harry by themselves." "Let's see, what else is there?" said Dicentra. "This pile isn't very big, is it?" She looked at the birthday cards and letters from Ron, Hermione, and Hagrid; the notes from Hagrid to the Trio notifying them of Buckbeak's trial; the notice in Hogsmeade about the dementor patrols; and Neville's password list. "Here's something," said Elkins, producing a roll of parchment. "Hermione's werewolf essay. Snape assigned the students to write about werewolves in the hopes that they would assume the role of informers when they put two and two together. But only Hermione wrote the essay, and she declined to assume the role he wanted her to take. Interesting." "Not much written material in *Prisoner of Azkaban*, is there?" said Dicentra, a bit crestfallen. "No..." Elkins said, sitting back on her heels. "But you know, there is an awful lot of *reading* going on. Think of Trelawney's class. She's trying to get them to read the future in all kinds of media: tea leaves, lines on the palm, crystal balls. And she keeps trying her hardest to assign Harry the tragic role of The Student Who Dies This Year by finding it 'written' in all manner of signs. Harry tries not to read the sign of the Grim, but he has a hard time ignoring it, and it messes with his head." Dicentra lowered her voice. "The strongest forces that Harry has to wrest with are how the Dementors affect him and his desire for revenge against Sirius Black. Neither of those things involve writing, but don't tell Cindy." "Don't worry Dicey," said Elkins. "The instances of writing in *Prisoner of Azkaban* make up in importance what they lack in number." "Thanks, Elk," said Dicentra, brightening. "Ready for *Goblet of Fire*?" "Ready," she said, pushing the pile toward Dicentra. "But you've already identified the most important instance of writing: the scrap of parchment that came out of the goblet." "Right, this is the writing that assigns Harry his primary role in *Goblet of Fire*, but I can think of two *prolific* writers right off the top of my head: Rita Skeeter and Sirius Black." "Oh, Rita produces an awful lot of writing," moaned Elkins. "And all of it manipulative," said Dicentra. "But interestingly, instead of writing a role for someone to follow, she writes about people playing roles they've never assumed. Arthur Weasley as incompetent bureaucrat, Harry as tragic orphan, Hermione as, uh, 'scarlet woman.'" "And the readers react to the unfortunate subjects of her stories as if they really had played those roles. Look at how Molly reacts to Hermione when Rita says she's toying with Harry's affections, not to mention how Draco revels in the stories about Harry crying for his mum." "As if he didn't have enough problems," said Dicentra. "Would you say that Rita is writing Draco's role for him?" "His role as chief irritant?" replied Elkins. "No, he's been like that from the beginning. The only person who writes his role so far is JKR. Come to think of it, we haven't seen him associated with writing much at all. Except for ferreting out articles from the Daily Prophet to use in embarrassing Harry, he's kind of writing-free." "Hee!" giggled Stoned!Harry to himself. "She said 'ferret.'" "But Draco did write a role once," said Dicentra, reaching for a shoebox that had fallen down with the papers. She extracted a handful of "Potter Stinks" badges. "By distributing these badges to his fellow Slyths, Draco ensures that Harry knows where his place is: at the bottom of the social totem pole. I find it significant that Harry chucks one of these at Ron. It's Harry's way of accusing Ron of playing the same antagonist role as Draco." Dicentra fell silent for a moment. "You said that the other prolific writer is Sirius Black," prompted Elkins. "Oh yeah," Dicentra said, returning to the moment. "His correspondence with Harry inserts a suggestion of the epistolary novel genre into *Goblet of Fire*. In almost all of his letters he's flat-out telling Harry what to do. And in writing these letters, Sirius is fulfilling his long-delayed role as Harry's protector." "But Harry puts Sirius in the protector role first," observed Elkins, "by sending him that letter telling him his scar hurt. And later, when Sirius says he is going to return to Hogwarts, Harry sends him another letter telling him it was no big deal in the hopes that Sirius won't endanger himself. So, for the first time we have an example of Harry using writing to assign a role to someone else. In this case, he's trying to get Sirius to lighten up on the protector role and concentrate more on the Accused Man In Deep Hiding role." "Harry may have written more than that role," said Dicentra as she extracted a large roll of parchment from the pile. "Here are those phony predictions that he and Ron made up for divination class. Remember that this takes place before his name comes out of the goblet of fire. The first three things off the top of Harry's head are: being in danger of burns, losing a treasured possession, and coming off the worse in a fight. Those are the three tasks, right there. And then Harry's last prediction is his own death by decapitation." "Yeah, you're big into that decapitation thing, aren't you Dicey?" said Elkins, "that plus Ron's tin parrot lopping off the head of Harry's rubber fish, plus Nearly Headless Nick, plus the Twins' headless hats..." "Shhhh!" Dicentra hissed, pointing at Stoned!Harry, whose eyes had become wide and just a little watery. "He doesn't know." "Ha ha, just kidding!" said Elkins brightly. "No one's getting decapitated. Least of all you, Harry." Stoned!Harry blinked a few times and wiped his sleeve across his eyes. "Got an eyelash..." he muttered. "But you have to admit it's a little spooky that he would finish up with that particular prediction," Dicentra said in a low voice. "Not half as spooky as these," replied Elkins in the same low voice. She had a stack of letters in her hand. Dicentra didn't recognize the handwriting. "These are the letters from Crouch Sr. to Percy, telling him how to run the department. It's another blatant example of someone handing someone else his role in writing. Percy, being Crouch Sr.'s biggest fan, went ahead and did everything he read without question. It doesn't seem like such a big deal until you remember that Crouch was under Imperius at the time. What we have is yet another Weasley unwittingly putting his trust in written material that ultimately comes from Voldemort." Dicentra shivered. "I think I can find something creepier," she said, digging into the pile. "Ah, here it is. In his dream, Harry is riding the eagle owl that delivers this. It tells Voldemort that Crouch Sr. has been neutralized. We have to assume that Voldemort told Barty Jr. about his father's escape by owl post, too, so Voldemort wrote Barty the role of parricide. This is the evidence that he fulfilled that role." "I can go you one better than that," said Elkins. "Look at these." Dicentra looked. They were all addressed to Ludo Bagman. "They're the letters the twins write to Bagman, asking for their winnings," said Dicentra. "What's so creepy about that?" "Ok, I was kidding about the creepy part. But only a little. By writing these, the twins put themselves into the role of blackmailers. I can't help but feel that they're going to flirt with more criminal behavior in the future." Dicentra sighed. "Is that it for *Goblet of Fire*?" "Looks like it. My turn," she said. But it took a great deal of pushing plus a magical assist from Stoned!Harry to move the tottering *Order of the Phoenix* pile toward her. "That thing is huge," observed Dicentra. "Of course it's huge," said Elkins. "Look at the size of the book whence it came." She looked up and down the pile of newspapers, letters, notebooks, and parchment. "Where do I start?" Dicentra sighed. "Isn't there any way we can sort these things into smaller groups?" "Probably," grinned Elkins. She snapped her fingers, and the contents of the Phoenix pile flew into the air. For a moment, it appeared that a highly localized blizzard had appeared over their heads, then the papers fluttered to the ground and settled into several small piles. Dicentra blinked. "I didn't know you could do... that." Elkins pretended not to hear her as she straightened the piles, idly humming something that sounded strangely like "Weasley Is Our King." "Check it out: Muggle newspapers," said Dicentra, as she gingerly pulled some greasy, smelly papers off the top of one pile. "Ewww! Where did those come from?" demanded Elkins. "Harry went dumpster-diving in Chapter 1, remember? He was looking for any sign of Voldemort's activities," Dicentra replied. "That's right! Instead of Harry receiving writing from others, he's looking for it himself, not only in the Muggle newspapers but also in the *Daily Prophet*." She took all of the *Daily Prophets* from June 1995 and set them on top of the Muggle newspapers to cover their odor. "I don't know what he thought he would do if he found something." "They were keeping me totally in the dark," Stoned!Harry loudly protested. "What else was I supposed to do?" Dicentra and Elkins turned to stare at Stoned!Harry. He was standing over them, defiantly, wand in hand. "What are you looking at?" "Uh, nothing," Dicentra said, not taking her eyes off him. "You just seem a little... different." "WHAT'S THAT TO YOU?" Stoned!Harry turned on his heel and stormed off. They heard the clatter of cauldrons at the far end of the room before he finally settled in a corner to sulk. Elkins mouthed the word "teenager" to Dicentra, who nodded. "Back to the stack," Elkins said quietly, pulling out a handful of letters. They all were addressed to Harry, and they were from Ron, Hermione, and Sirius. "These are those letters they sent during the summer that made Harry so frustrated. He could tell they were all in on something but they weren't telling him. So again we have absence of writing being a driving force, only this time it doesn't come from the Dursleys -- it's coming from Harry's most trusted friends." "Which makes it doubly ironic in 'A Peck of Owls,'" adds Dicentra, "when Harry is peppered with letters and Vernon is beside himself with rage at their invading his home. "Unlike the Letters From No One, which he kept from Harry with some measure of success, he's totally powerless to stop these letters from coming. It's a sign of the increasing blurring between the Wizarding and Muggle worlds -- between Harry's two modes of existence." "Those letters are also competing with each other to assign Harry roles," observed Elkins. "The first letter, from the Ministry of Magic, tells Harry he's been expelled from Hogwarts, which would cement his future as a failed wizard. Then we get the letter from Arthur telling Harry to not yield his wand and to stay home. The next letter from the Ministry tells Harry that he's merely been suspended pending a hearing, and then Sirius tells him to not leave home. Vernon determines that Harry might be a danger to his home and tries to throw him out, but Dumbledore's Howler to Petunia intervenes on his behalf. All these pieces of writing are tugging at Harry in different directions at the same time, not unlike the conflicting emotions and other forces of adolescence that pull at him." They heard a derisive snort from the far side of the room. Dicentra grinned. "So to respond," she said loudly, making sure her voice carried far enough, "Harry writes three identical letters and sends them to three different people. It demonstrates how Harry's psyche is becoming fragmented into ego, id, and superego, represented by Ron, Sirius, and Hermione, respectively." Elkins raised an eyebrow. "No, it doesn't," she whispered, "and besides, you don't even believe in Freudian interpretations." "I know. I'm just playing with his head," replied Dicentra, as a Galleon came flying toward them and landed with a resounding clatter near Elkin's right foot. "Here, why don't you two buy a real life," came the petulant voice from across the room. With great effort, Dicentra and Elkins stifled a good five-minutes' worth of laughter Elkins reached into the pile again and withdrew another letter, this time with Muggle stamps and addressing on it. "The letter from Tonks telling the Dursleys about the All-England Best-Kept Suburban Lawn Competition," she said. "It also serves as a means to manipulation, as it lures the Dursleys from their house while the Advance Guard rescues Harry." "Check these out," she added, dragging a large pile of newspapers toward her. "A whole year's worth of Daily Prophets -- from June 1995 through June 1996." "Geez," said Dicentra. "*Order of the Phoenix* was long, but I don't remember it mentioning all of those." "It doesn't mention each one individually," replied Elkins, "but they all play a significant part in shaping Harry's role. Hermione rightly deduces that the remaining reporters for the Prophet take up where Rita Skeeter left off, characterizing him as a 'deluded, attention-seeking person who thinks he's a great tragic hero or something.' Harry may not really play that role, but most people believe that he does. The way they react to him affects the role Harry does play -- that of misunderstood martyr." "Martyr?" Dicentra said doubtfully. "Isn't that a bit melodramatic?" "He's a teenager," Elkins said. "Everything is melodramatic to him. Only in his case, it's not an exaggeration. Voldemort's return is no small event, and not being believed about something of this magnitude is one of the factors that drives Harry's anger throughout the book." "It also results in these," said Dicentra soberly, picking up a pile of puckered parchment. "Look at these: rolls and rolls of the same thing over and over again, 'I must not tell lies. I must not tell lies' in that creepy dark-red ink. Blood, I mean..." she sat the parchment down carefully, as if setting down a sleeping creature that she couldn't afford to waken. "We don't have the most important component of this bit of writing, though," Elkins said quietly. "We don't have the back of Harry's hand." Dicentra shivered. "That episode has Biblical overtones, too. You remember how Moses came down from the mount with the 10 Commandments engraved on two stone tablets? Well, in later scripture, the image of engraving the commandments on one's heart was a metaphor for internalizing the ethical code as opposed to giving it lip service. Proverbs 7 says 'Keep my commandments, and live; ... write them upon the tablet of thine heart.' Then in the New Testament, 2nd Corinthians 3 uses the phrase 'written ... not in tablets of stone, but in fleshy tablets of the heart.' Umbridge said she wanted Harry to write 'I must not tell lies' until he internalized the message, which to her meant that the words were permanently etched on the flesh of his hand. Considering that Harry was telling the truth, and considering the fact that she obviously enjoyed making him suffer, the whole episode makes for an extraordinarily twisted, perverse variation on the Biblical metaphor." "What role does this writing assign to Harry?" asked Elkins. "Umbridge is trying to make him into yet another mindless unbeliever," answered Dicentra, "and furthermore, she's showing him that she won't be challenged -- that the price for questioning her version of the truth is his own blood." "She uses the writing as a tool of coercion, then," concluded Elkins, "which goes right along with these." She picked up a stack of official-looking documents. "The Educational Decrees: with each decree she tightens the thumbscrews a bit more; with each one, she extends the range of her power while severely curtailing the power of others. Because these are documents from the Ministry, she only has to post them around the school to assert her new status." "That clipboard she writes on while inspecting the teachers is another means of coercion," said Dicentra. "Whatever she writes in her notes is considered to be the Truth, at least as far as she's concerned. And she uses this concocted 'Truth' to sack Trelawney and Hagrid, and to do who knows what else." "Aren't you guys finished yet?" boomed Cindy as she bounced into the room. Elkins and Dicentra exchanged glances. "Almost," said Elkins. "And?" "We've discovered that it is rather common for the characters in the Potterverse to quite literally write roles for each other, and sometimes for themselves," explained Dicentra. "But we've got one more thing to determine," said Elkins. "I wonder if we can find a common theme to these roles, perhaps on a book-by-book basis." Dicentra poked idly through the piles for a moment. "In *Philosopher's Stone*, Dumbledore writes Harry's role to introduce him to the Wizarding World and to Voldemort," she said slowly. "Initiation, then," said Elkins. "And in *Chamber of Secrets*, the prominent examples of role-writing concern transforming the self into a written work and vice versa." "*Prisoner of Azkaban* is about escape," said Dicentra. "Sirius escapes prison because of the *Daily Prophet* article, and Harry escapes Hogwarts using the Marauder's Map." Elkins paused for a moment. "The writing in *Goblet of Fire* seems to emphasize false roles. Harry wasn't supposed to be a Triwizard Champion, and all those Rita Skeeter articles paint Harry in a very false light." "And in *Order of the Phoenix*," concluded Dicentra, "it's coercion." Elkins nodded. "Tell me this, though," challenged Cindy. "Did JKR do this on purpose or are you just reading too much into the books again?" "I very much doubt that JKR consciously planned to use writing in this way," said Dicentra, "but that doesn't matter. If we can see it, it's there." "Reading too much into it. I thought as much. So what are you going to call your exhibit?" "I think I'll call it 'Scriptwriting for Pleasure and Profit: The Power of the Written Word in *Harry Potter*.'" "That's a stupid name," said Cindy. She swaggered over to where Stoned!Harry was sulking and poked him with her paddle. "Hey, Stoner! Get up! We need another body for volleyball." She grabbed his robes, pulled him to his feet, and dragged him protesting from the room. "Oh, would you look at the time," said Elkins, checking her watchless wrist. "I've got another seminar to give over at the Canon College on the Crouch Family Saga." She jumped to her feet and ran out of the room. Dicentra sat alone amid the stacks of papers. Rising slowly, she extracted a wand from her robes and magicked the parchment blizzard into the air again. "Come on," she said wearily. "We've got a display to put together." And she sloped out of the room, trailing papers, parchment, and letters in her wake. --Dicentra spectabilis Appendix Incidents of Writing in the *Harry Potter* Series (Page numbers refer to Scholastic editions) *Philosopher's Stone* 016 ? Dumbledore: Letter to Dursleys about Harry 034 ? McGonagall: Acceptance letter 073 ? Dumbledore: Letter authorizing Stone's removal 102 ? Chocolate frog cards 141 ? *Daily Prophet* (DP): Gringott's break-in 202 ? Dumbledore: "Use it well" 206 ? Erised inscription 219 ? Chocolate frog card; Flamel 236 ? Charlie: "I'll take Norbert" 261 ? Dumbledore: "Just in case" 267 ? Owl from "MoM" 285 ? Potion riddle *Chamber of Secrets* 007 ? Dursleys don't allow letters to Hermione & Ron 018 ? Letters intercepted by Dobby 020 ? Mafalda Hopkirk: One more and you're expelled 043 ? List of school materials goes to Burrow 043 ? Lockhart's books (throughout) 078 ? DP: Ford Anglia seen by muggles 087 ? Molly: Ron's howler 097 ? Harry won't sign autographs 106 ? Harry won't sign autographs 111 ? Snape: Slytherins have Quidditch pitch 120 ? Harry addresses envelopes for Lockhart 124 ? Nick can't be in Headless Hunt 127 ? Kwikspell Letter 138 ? Writing on the wall: "The Chamber of Secrets has been opened..." 163 ? Permission to check out *Moste Potente Potions* 221 ? DP: Arthur in trouble for enchanting the Ford Anglia 231 ? Tom Riddle's Diary 233 ? Diary insinuates itself in Harry's mind 240 ? Harry writes in Diary 262 ? Order of Suspension for Dumbledore 290 ? Page from book: "pipes" 293 ? "Her skeleton will lie..." 314 ? Riddle's anagram name 341 ? Harry: phone number to Ron and Hermione *Prisoner of Azkaban* 001 ? Harry writes an essay under the covers 008 ? Birthday card, clipping from Ron 011 ? Card & letter from Hermione 014 ? Note from Hagrid about book 014 ? Unsigned Permission slip 037 ? DP: Harry reads about Sirius Black on bus 107 ? Tea leaves 186 ? Werewolf essay from Snape 191 ? Marauder's Map 199 ? Notice of Dementor's patrol in Hogsmeade 217 ? Buckbeak's trial notification 223 ? No card with Firebolt 249 ? Neville's passwords 271 ? Gran Longbottom's howler 362 ? DP: Sirius's copy of Ron's article 432 ? Note from Sirius; signed permission slip *Goblet of Fire* 029 ? Harry: tells Sirius about scar 030 ? Molly: invites Harry to QWC 035 ? Ron: "Dad got tickets" 036 ? Harry: "See you at 5" 056 ? Cauldron-bottom report 146 ? Rita: rumors of bodies, Arthur not forthcoming 151 ? Howlers to MoM making claims for damaged tents, etc. 152 ? Twins to Ludo: "Pay us back" (multiple) 203 ? Rita: alarm at Mad ? eye's 221 ? Ron & Harry's divination predictions 226 ? Sirius: "I'm coming north" 220 ? *Magical Water Plants of the Mediterranean* 228 ? Harry: "Don't come north" 240 ? Sirius: "Nice try" 271 ? Parchment from goblet 291 ? Harry tells Sirius about goblet 297 ? "Potter Stinks" badges 304 ? Rita's quill 312 ? Sirius: Meet me in the fireplace 314 ? Rita: "I still cry" 328 ? Molly believes Rita 406 ? Sirius: good 1st task; watch for Karkaroff 437 ? Rita: Hagrid is half-giant 467 ? Marauder's Map; "Egg & Eye" 483 ? Sirius: Tell me when the next Hogsmeade weekend is 510 ? Sirius: Meet me by the stile 511 ? Rita: "Harry Potter's secret heartache" 522 ? Sirius has DPs in cave 541 ? Hate mail for Hermione 549 ? Crouch Sr. sends letters to Percy 572 ? Sirius: don't hang out with Krum 576 ? Barty Jr.: Crouch is dead 578 ? Harry obeys Sirius 600 ? Dumbledore tells Harry he's been writing to Sirius 609 ? Sirius: take no risks (multiple) 611 ? Rita: Harry disturbed & dangerous *Order of the Phoenix* 003 ? Harry scavenges Muggle newspapers from dumpsters 008 ? Harry reads p.1 only of DP 008 ? Empty letters from Hermione, Ron, and Sirius 026 ? Mafalda Hopkirk: Harry expelled 028 ? Arthur: Don't yield wand; stay home 032 ? Mafalda Hopkirk: Harry only suspended but must attend Hearing 035 ? Sirius: Don't leave home 040 ? Dumbledore: "Remember my last, Petunia!" 042 ? Harry: 3 letters to Hermione, Ron, and Sirius 048 ? Tonks: sends letter to Dursleys about contest 054 ? Lupin: explaining to Dursleys where Harry has gone 058 ? Dumbledore: reveals location of Order's headquarters 073 ? DP takes jabs at Harry 080 ? Secret plans on kitchen table 103 ? Lockhart's guide to pests 111 ? Black family tapestry 126 ? Harry's guest badge at Ministry 130 ? Flying memos 134 ? Memo about changed venue for hearing 138 ? Percy takes notes 140 ? Charges against Harry 161 ? Ron makes prefect 185 ? Luna's *Quibbler* 190 ? *Quibbler* articles 222 ? Twins' advert for test subjects 232 ? Snape's potion ingredients on board 239 ? Umbridge's Course Aims 259 ? Bowtruckle sketch 266 ? "I must not tell lies" 274 ? "I must not tell lies" 280 ? Harry's cryptic note to Sirius 287 ? DP: Sturgis Podmore article 296 ? Percy's letter to Ron 299 ? Hermione corrects Sinistra's essays for Ron and Harry 306 ? DP: Umbridge is High Inquisitor 309 ? Snape's potions grades 347 ? Jinxed list of DAs 351 ? Ed. Decree 24: No clubs 359 ? Sirius: "Today, same time, same place." 383 ? Potions book: recklessness 389 ? Books in Room of Requirement 404 ? Weasley Is Our King badges 415 ? Ed. Decree 25: High Inquisitor can override staff punishments 447 ? Umbridge's clipboard 501 ? Homework planner from Hermione 509 ? Lockhart autographs 511 ? Lockhart fan mail 543 ? DP: DEs escape from Azkaban 546 ? DP: Death of Bode 551 ? Ed. Decree 26: No non ? course-related info to students 558 ? Wanted poster in Hogsmeade of 10 DEs 565 ? Rita's interview in the *Quibbler* 578 ? Owls in support of Harry 581 ? Ed. Decree 27: anyone with *Quibbler* will be expelled 584 ? Enchanted poster of Harry's cover shot in Common Room 617 ? List of DAs; "Dumbledore's Army," not "Potter's" 619 ? Percy's note-taking 624 ? Ed. Decree 28: Umbridge is Headmistress 641 ? Snape's DADA OWL 656 ? Career advice notice; leaflets 673 ? Approval for whipping 725 ? History OWL 780 ? Label on prophecy: SPT to APWBD 845 ? DP: Voldemort is back 858 ? Note from Sirius with mirror 862 ? Luna's request for her stuff From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 16 06:50:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:50:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77512 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 8/15/2003 6:12:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gbannister10 writes: > > > > > Geoff: > > > I hadn't. I tend to associate it more with "Abracadabra". > > > Also "cadaver" is not a word which is used much in the UK. > > > It's more of an American word. We stick to the more > genteel "corpse". > > > :-) > > > > Well, I don't know what Americans you know, but I'm from the US, > and we don't walk around saying "Cadaver, cadaver, cadaver." We > usually just say "Dead body." Or "Corpse." But cadaver *is* a word > for dead body, and I think JKR must have used this in her alteration > of "Abracadabra" to create her meaning. > > > > Brief Chronicles > > From the US: > Cadaver is used mostly in medicine. Medical examiners and > Pathologists refer to a dead person as a cadaver. Geoff: I was probably thinking medically in the back of my mind. If you said to a fair number of UK folk, "what's a cadaver?", a fair percentage wouldn't have met the word. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 16 06:50:12 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:50:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 8/15/2003 6:12:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > gbannister10 writes: > > > > > Geoff: > > > I hadn't. I tend to associate it more with "Abracadabra". > > > Also "cadaver" is not a word which is used much in the UK. > > > It's more of an American word. We stick to the more > genteel "corpse". > > > :-) > > > > Well, I don't know what Americans you know, but I'm from the US, > and we don't walk around saying "Cadaver, cadaver, cadaver." We > usually just say "Dead body." Or "Corpse." But cadaver *is* a word > for dead body, and I think JKR must have used this in her alteration > of "Abracadabra" to create her meaning. > > > > Brief Chronicles > > From the US: > Cadaver is used mostly in medicine. Medical examiners and > Pathologists refer to a dead person as a cadaver. Geoff: I was probably thinking medically in the back of my mind. If you said to a fair number of UK folk, "what's a cadaver?", a fair percentage wouldn't have met the word. From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 06:44:58 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:44:58 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? (was: Defending Ron (was Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77514 Jo Serenadust wrote : Well, now *I'm* offended! > As for his rift with Harry in GoF ::sighs::, where does it indicate > that he wants success to Harry's detriment? He's upset with Harry > because he (wrongly) believes that Harry has put his name in the > goblet without telling Ron in advance how he plans to do it, and > then refuses to admit that he did so. I have to advise you to reread the end of chapter 17 of GoF (sorry, I can't quote it myself because I've got a foreign - non UK/US - version of it, but if you follow my advice you will surely be able to notice that Ron is "quite" bitter : he really lets things out when Harry goes back to sleep in his dormitory. Let me paraphrase it that way : [Ron is talking to Harry] "Of course you didn't mean to do it ! You didn't want those thousands galleons cos' you don't need them, you're already sooooooooooo richy !!! And now you've just insulted me [Harry said something like "you're a moron" to him], go to sleep, you lucky boy, you have to sign autographs to the screaming crowd tomorrow (aka : Gilderoy Lockhard's old grievance against Harry in Ron's mouth)". OK, I have to admit that I may amplify things a little bit too much, but Ron does not only harbour resentment against Harry simply on account on what he considers being Harry's refusal to tell him what really happened and how he managed to dupe everybody (something that even Fred and George couldn't achieve). Definitely not. There is something more, and that "something more" is described in the book. Talking about GoF, remember what he said after the second test : I fought plenty of merepeoples that were trying to capture me (which was not true as we all know, but Harry was supporting enough to let Ron enjoy his moment of fame... He, for once, wanted to be at the center of attention). Same thing with OoP : after his triumph as a Quidditch goal-keeper he keeps talking about it again and again until the next day so that he isn't even aware of Harry and Hermione's unforgettable trip with Hagrid into the forbidden forest. > No where does it suggest that Ron thinks that he should be champion instead of Harry. Yes you're right. But this is not what I said. It has never been suggested that Ron thinks that he *should* be a champion. But he certainly *would like* to become one (Which is normal. It just becomes more complicated when you have got a strong desire burning inside you and when your best friends are Harry Potter and Hermione Granger...). > Does he join the Slytherns in making fun of him? Fortunately not (had it been true, we wouln't be discussing that point)!!!!!! > Does he wear a "Potter Stinks" badge? Same answer. > Does he short-sheet Harry's bed? Ibid. > He doesn't even really refuse to speak to him. Hey, wait a minute. You really like Ron, don't you ? > As for the assumption that Hermione is destined to be MoM, I > sincerely doubt that is likely unless the office is automatically > awarded to the witch or wizard with the most NEWTS. Her people > skills and political instincts are not nearly as well developed as > her intellect. Frankly, I can see Ron being MoM more easily than I > can see Hermione in that position, but it's purely speculative. Now, *I* am offended. Hermione sometimes "offends" people (as we all happen to do ;-) ) but you cannot say that her "people skills are not nearly as well developped as her intellect". Not only is she always telling Harry and Ron why other people do behave the way they do, but she also explains to the two of them how these people, and how they - R and H - are feeling. Of course, she sometimes acts like a bull in a china shop but she's becoming more and more full of empathy for everyone (I won't work out that precise point here but it would be something worth discussing at length IMO : Who is Hermione beyond the caricature ? Another topic coming soon ?). See you. AAm (Hermy for MOM). From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 07:49:49 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2003 23:49:49 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] MALFOY and HARRY In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030815234141.00a69ce8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 77515 At 06:48 PM 8/14/2003 +0000, miss_america_03 wrote: >Does anyone other than myself believe that Malfoy and Harry will >make amends? I few of my other "predictions" for coming books are: >*Wormtail will give his life for Harry's because of the life pact >they made in book 3 >*Harry will learn more about his parents >*Kreacher becomes a grave danger for the order >*Snape will NOT be a vampire I agree that the above are probably good prediticions. But I think the following sound as though you should have signed this Sybil rather than Winky... >*If anyones the traitor i believe Lupin will probably be it, no >reasons why tho I think evil!Lupin has been debunked several times. Once again, as he represents unjustified persecution, it would hurt JKR's cause to have him be evil. >*Harry will be an animagus and fight Voldemort like that This theory has been debunked also as JKR has stated in interviews that none of the Trio will become animagus >*Nevilles parents will become ok I doubt it...but I do believe we will learn more about his family and the significance of Uncle Algie's gifts. I personally like U.A. and his quirkiness. I think he is probably the only one who really cares for Neville in a supportive way. All his blunders were in trying to help Neville. >*S.P.E.W will finally see some closure (I hope... its rather >annoying) I second that...Die SPEW! DIE!!! > Thanks!! > *Winky* > > > > >________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > >Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! >http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > >Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from >posts to which you're replying! > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 16 08:12:54 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:12:54 -0400 Subject: Screwtape Message-ID: <3F3DE786.8000900@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77516 I happened to take Screwtape down from the shelf the other day, and noticed some interesting correspondences to the Potter books. First and most trivially, the name of Screwtape's nephew: Wormwood. I am pretty sure, but not absolutely certain, that Wormwood predates Tolkien's Wormtongue by a few years. Not that Wormtail necessarily derived from either, but if it did then Wormwood would be the ultimate source. Then, in his second preface (to, I think, the 1961 edition), Lewis wrote: "We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where everyone lives the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment. ... The greatest evil ... is conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern." Except for the white collars, this seems to fit Fudge, Umbridge, Percy, and the whole ministry perfectly. Fudge is willing to risk letting Voldemort have a free hand, because to acknowledge his return would make him look foolish, and might lose him his job. He certainly envies and resents Dumbledore and his powers and allies. And, of course, self-importance is every politician's major characteristic. Earlier in the preface, Lewis wrote of the "great harm" done by Goethe and Milton in making the devil appear so appealing and even sympathetic: "The humourous, civilized, sensible, adaptable Mephistopheles" and "the grandeur and high poetry" of Milton's devils create the "illusion" that evil is less evil than it really is. This brings to mind, at least to me, the attraction Snape and the Malfoys seem to have for a number of readers. While I don't think either Snape or the Malfoys can really compare to the Mephistopheles of Goethe (and Boito), and I don't think Rowling intended them to do so, it appears that many others disagree. Rowling seems to have unintentionally committed the offense Lewis attributed to Milton and Goethe. Lewis included two epigrams at the beginning of his book. The first, from Luther: "The best way to drive out the devil, if he will not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn." The second, from More, expresses the same idea. That is exactly what Dumbledore did when he kept calling Voldemort 'Tom', and exactly what Hogwarts did to Umbridge after she forced Dumbledore out. Not just Fred and George with their mayhem, not just the teachers who refused to repair the damage wreaked by F&G, but Hogwarts itself "jeer[ed] and flout[ed]" Umbridge by refusing her entry into the headmaster's office. Lastly, Percy's letter to Ron bears a striking resemblance in tone and content to Screwtape's letters (at least the earlier ones) to his nephew. Both give "diabolical" advice (as an outraged vicar wrote when cancelling his subscription to the periodical in which the letters first appeared) in a perfectly reasonable, even superficially affectionate, manner. I would be very much surprised if Rowling did not have Screwtape's letters in the back of her mind (or even the front) when she wrote Percy's. From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 08:14:54 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:14:54 -0000 Subject: Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030815222929.00ae0e08@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth wrote: > At 11:46 PM 8/14/2003 +0000, Pruneau wrote: > >But he chose the Patronus, so I assume that very few people (only > >Lupin, Hermione, and maybe Snape, Ron and Sirius) knew it was a > >stag. So IMHO, the Quidditch Patronus was just a (large) silvery > >wisp of vapour. > > Actually, at the end of PoA Dumbledore remarks on noting the curious form > of Harry's patronus at the match after he learns of James's Animagus form. > So by that point in time Harry's Patronus was a stag and had a form...else > DD could not have noted it and seen the connection between the patronus and > James.] Sof: Also, Lupin was shaken when he congratulated Harry after the match. He must also have been surprised to see it was James' animagus form. You don't choose the Patronus' shape. Harry didn't know what shape it was until he'd gone back in time and cast the Patronus from the far side of the lake. From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sat Aug 16 08:39:44 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:39:44 -0000 Subject: MALFOY and HARRY In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030815234141.00a69ce8@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth wrote: > At 06:48 PM 8/14/2003 +0000, miss_america_03 wrote: > >Does anyone other than myself believe that Malfoy and Harry will > >make amends? Not in my opinion. I think that the ending of OoP shows clearly that Malfoy and his pals have chosen the dark side. I think that Malfoy will create a secret DA-like organization to practice the dark arts in the school, with emphasis on how to break the protective spells and permit LV and his DE's access. I believe the final battle may very well take place in the school (perhaps in the Chamber of Secrets which can only be accessed by the two main protagonists - HP and LV), pitting the DA and Malfoy's organization against each other. > >*S.P.E.W will finally see some closure (I hope... its rather > >annoying) > > I second that...Die SPEW! DIE!!! I disagree. SPEW is implemented rather clumsily because Hermione has not so far been willing to accept that house elves have a different value system than herself, but the fight for better treatment of non-human magical creatures is at the heart of the crisis facing WW (see the problems caused by the wizards' treatment of goblins, giants, centaurs, and even some house elves - and the way LV is exploiting them). Salit From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Aug 16 09:27:50 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:27:50 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77519 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "belsum" > Oh my god Mandy, I > am totally with you on this one. I am _this close_ > > to breaking down and getting a UK set just to be able to compare on > my > > own. (But I suppose if Scholastic heard that, it would just give > them > > more reason not to release one edition only. Sigh.) > > Belsum > > > I wonder, do the UK editions have those same hideous illustrations? I > noticed that the covers are different. I absolutely cannot abide that > Grandpre woman. Her drawing of Snape in PoA is crime against humanity! > > Allyson FYI, the main UK editions do not have illustrations (apart from the dust jacket). There might be some special editions around that do, but we just have words, with nothing else to distract. Hooray! Kneasy From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sat Aug 16 09:51:42 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:51:42 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77520 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > FYI, the main UK editions do not have illustrations (apart from the > dust jacket). There might be some special editions around that do, > but we just have words, with nothing else to distract. Hooray! > > Kneasy Really? I thought I had the UK version, and my book has a Phoenix on the front and the MoM Atrium on the back. ((utterly bewildered)) And well... if anyone's interested, the swedish illustrations are great, IMO. :) Some guy named Alvaro Tapia made them. evangelina my deepest apologies if this is criminally off topic... From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 10:27:45 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 03:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030816102745.70882.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77521 There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments like that? --Winky The world's most heartbreaking momment to me is when Harry was listening to his mother and father while learning the patronus. Very scary. We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Aug 16 11:26:52 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:26:52 -0000 Subject: Who sets the passwords? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77522 I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the Gryffindor students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a new one every week. It seemed to me more than odd that the password for the first week would be "mimbulus mimbletonia". Any ideas as to why this word would have been chosen, or is it really just a huge coincidence? Wanda From silmariel at telefonica.net Sat Aug 16 11:34:50 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:34:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rookwood In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308161334.50756.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77523 Mags~~ <> Nice story, but wasn't it a man instead of a mouse? An we have Sturgis Podmore, that has other references, but to me is linked to 'Sturgeon, Theodore', another Sci-fi writer also known for shaping the Sna... the Spock character. silmariel From silmariel at telefonica.net Sat Aug 16 11:59:26 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:59:26 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308161359.26333.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77524 >> I don't happen to think Snape is a vampire/dhampire, btw, but a big >> red herring covering a real one -- silmariel > What if the real one just happened to be Dumbledore? > Summer - suffering from improbable, but not imposible, delusions. It is a nice candidate, just for the audience shock, and would explain why he trusts Snape, who could make blood replenishing potions and let him feed. McGonadall is so opposed to the standard vampire idea that is nice to imagine her as the vampire. Sinistra - her name, sinister, speaks for itself. Trelawney hides a lot, but that would be the crappiest vampire in literary history. Just rambling, these ideas need maturing. silmariel From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 11:59:29 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 04:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: <20030816102745.70882.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20030816115929.83158.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77525 Winky wrote: > > There have been lots of moments where my heart > just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't > know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind > and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his > heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! > Any other moments > like that? > Melanie Black: > The world's most heartbreaking momment to me is when > Harry was listening to his mother and father while > learning the patronus. Very scary. > Me: When Harry looks into the two-way mirror and calls out "Sirus Black." ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From tcyhunt at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 12:05:32 2003 From: tcyhunt at earthlink.net (tcyhunt) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:05:32 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > > --Winky > > P.S. I think Harry will lose his scar when he defeats Voldemort :) > sorry had to throw that in Near the end of GoF when Molly is hugging Harry in the hospital bed. My Mommy heart was breaking. I still get weepy (I know, pathetic) when I read this. Tcy From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 16 12:06:29 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:06:29 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who sets the passwords? References: Message-ID: <003901c363ee$d4a73500$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 77527 From: Wanda Sherratt I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the Gryffindor students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a new one every week. It seemed to me more than odd that the password for the first week would be "mimbulus mimbletonia". Any ideas as to why this word would have been chosen, or is it really just a huge coincidence? Wanda Eeek - Wild Theory Alert! Great Uncle Algie is a member of the Order, who showed off his latest prezzie for NL at Grimmauld place while MM was there? Algie and Minerva had been having a clandestine holiday romance at the time he picked up the plant? Minerva is actually Uncle Algie??!!!??? Have they ever been seen together? Dawn (ducking and running to a safe distance) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Aug 16 12:15:13 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:15:13 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77528 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > > --Winky > > P.S. I think Harry will lose his scar when he defeats Voldemort :) > sorry had to throw that in I think he'll lose his scar and most of his magical ability. Heartgrabbers: There were 2 for me in OoP. The first was right after Sirius' death when Neville, legs still dancing, crawls his way down the stone benches to Harry and asks, through his broken nose, if Sirius was a friend of Harry's. And, when Harry nods, Neville says, "I'm sorry." Here's this battered, hexed kid who's in way over his head dealing with DEs, but who has the decency and empathy to ignore all that just to say he's sorry. The second was the image of Harry sitting alone with his grief under the tree by the lake. Marianne From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 12:22:46 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 05:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who sets the passwords? In-Reply-To: <003901c363ee$d4a73500$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: <20030816122246.43567.qmail@web20706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77529 I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the Gryffindor students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a new one every week. It seemed to me more than odd that the password for the first week would be "mimbulus mimbletonia". Any ideas as to why this word would have been chosen, or is it really just a huge coincidence? Wanda I bet the prefects vote on the password. It seems pretty appropriate to me for Hermione to suggest that they chose "mimbulus mimbletonia" because she would want Neville to be able to remember it. ~Melanie --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 12:33:27 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:33:27 -0000 Subject: Fudge/Capture of Sirius (was "is there a reason?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77530 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > "maneelyfh" : > > > Things that bother me about Fudge: > > > 1) Puts the blame on Sirius for the Potter's, and > > > Wormtails supposed death without a trial or asking > > > for an explanation. > > "James Redmont" : > > Fudge didn't do that...he had Percy's job when that > > happened (see PoA, the scene in the Three Broomsticks > > where Harry finds out what Black supposedly did.) > > Wellllllllll, Fudge wasn't the one (Crouch) who sentenced Sirius > without a trial, but he was the first on the scene of the Ministry > wizards who apprehended Sirius, and it might reasonably be surmised > that his account would have been instrumental in convincing Crouch of > Sirius' guilt. Moreover, if I recall correctly, Fudge was the one > charged with modifying the memories of the witnesses, which would > have put him in a unique position to conduct an investigation if he > had wished to scratch beneath the surface. But the path of least > resistance is always well-trod when Fudge is doing the walking. > > It's hard for me to characterize either Crouch's or Fudge's actions > as evil, but they certainly make for bad government. > > -- Matt Me again: Sorry for not quoating correctly as well as my spelling. It's just gut instinct that there is more to Fudge than meets the eye. Look at it this way if LV won, would fudge remain as MOM? I think the ARt of Deception is at play. If you haven't seen the movie Usual Suspects, check it out as it is a great demonstration of decption by a seemingly bumbler. Fran From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 16 12:42:38 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:42:38 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Writing insturments - why not? Message-ID: <20.174062d9.2c6f80be@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77531 In a message dated 8/12/2003 4:18:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owlery2003 at yahoo.com writes: > Don't get me wrong, I love the whole HP series. I wonder why it is that the > WW is so big on quills and bottles of ink, though? Leaving aside the "magic" > aspects of certain inks, quills, and etc., really you might think the muggle > borns would have become rather used to conventional modern writing > instruments like pencils and pens. Even fountain pens seem more practical than dipping > a feather into ink bottles. I half expected Hermione to start tutting about > it, but it's just the way it's done, I suppose. Are pens considered muggle > artifacts? A) The WW as a whole seems rather old-fashioned. IMHO, this is not necessarily a bad thing. B) Writing with a quill takes a great deal of concentration - you have to focus on what you're doing. For that reason, a lot of magickal "authorities" suggest strongly that a quill be used to write out spells. (It's not just the dove's blood ink - it's the focus of the spellcaster.) Sherrie (who needs to buy some new quills) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 16 12:45:36 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:45:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Age Message-ID: <14a.22d7c0cb.2c6f8170@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77532 In a message dated 8/12/2003 8:54:37 PM Pacific Daylight Time, pokeypokey at comcast.net writes: > On what pretense did the Lexicon figure Dumbedore's age? Did > they just assume? It seems like they did, because I dont > remember any facts supporting this information- though I could > be wrong On statements by JKR in interviews that Dumbledore is "around 150", McGonagall "a sprightly 70", & Snape "35 or 36". Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 16 12:56:33 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:56:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77533 In a message dated 8/13/2003 12:48:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jwcpgh at yahoo.com writes: > So I think that the brevity of Snape's visits to Grimmauld Place has > to do with Snape rather than the Order. Perhaps he doesn't truly trust the protections on the house, & fears that Voldykins might be able to trace the place through his Dark Mark if he stays there too long? Just a random thought that popped into my (very tired after opening night) brain. Probably not worth even one Knut... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 13:06:57 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:06:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77534 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > > In a message dated 8/15/2003 6:12:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > gbannister10 writes: > > > > > > > Geoff: > > > > I hadn't. I tend to associate it more with "Abracadabra". > > > > Also "cadaver" is not a word which is used much in the UK. > > > > It's more of an American word. We stick to the more > > genteel "corpse". > > > > :-) > > > > > > Well, I don't know what Americans you know, but I'm from the US, > > and we don't walk around saying "Cadaver, cadaver, cadaver." > We > > usually just say "Dead body." Or "Corpse." But cadaver *is* a word > > for dead body, and I think JKR must have used this in her > alteration > > of "Abracadabra" to create her meaning. > > > > > > Brief Chronicles > > > > From the US: > > Cadaver is used mostly in medicine. Medical examiners and > > Pathologists refer to a dead person as a cadaver. > > Geoff: > I was probably thinking medically in the back of my mind. If you said > to a fair number of UK folk, "what's a cadaver?", a fair percentage > wouldn't have met the word. Me again: In the US news sources such as the evening news, and news papers usually just say "body" as in a body was found floating in the river..... Fran From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 16 13:22:20 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:22:20 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Alohamora Message-ID: <167.2465218f.2c6f8a0c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77535 In a message dated 8/15/2003 11:42:00 AM Pacific Daylight Time, aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au writes: > If Alohomora was such common knowledge, locks would be > obsolete in Hogwarts .. lol Yet it's in chapter seven of "The Standard Book of Spells, Level One" - it should be known to everyone past the middle of first year, I'd think... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 13:28:37 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 13:28:37 -0000 Subject: Screwtape In-Reply-To: <3F3DE786.8000900@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > I happened to take Screwtape down from the shelf the other day, and > noticed some interesting correspondences to the Potter books. > > First and most trivially, the name of Screwtape's nephew: Wormwood. I > am pretty sure, but not absolutely certain, that Wormwood predates > Tolkien's Wormtongue by a few years. Not that Wormtail necessarily > derived from either, but if it did then Wormwood would be the ultimate > source. > > Then, in his second preface (to, I think, the 1961 edition), Lewis > wrote: "We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually > concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a > grievance, and where everyone lives the deadly serious passions of > envy, self-importance, and resentment. ... The greatest evil ... is > conceived and ordered (moved, seconded, carried, and minuted) in > clean, carpeted, warmed, and well-lighted offices, by quiet men with > white collars and cut fingernails and smooth-shaven cheeks who do not > need to raise their voice. Hence, naturally enough, my symbol for > Hell is something like the bureaucracy of a police state or the > offices of a thoroughly nasty business concern." > > Except for the white collars, this seems to fit Fudge, Umbridge, > Percy, and the whole ministry perfectly. Fudge is willing to risk > letting Voldemort have a free hand, because to acknowledge his return > would make him look foolish, and might lose him his job. He certainly > envies and resents Dumbledore and his powers and allies. And, of > course, self-importance is every politician's major characteristic. > So, what would happen to Fudge if LV won? wouldn't LV have power over Fudge or so away with the MOM altogether? IF fudge supportts LV in hopes LV will come to power, then Fudge would be in good standing with LV and hopefully come away with some power. Fran From MadameSSnape at aol.com Sat Aug 16 13:50:09 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 09:50:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK vs US Harry Potter Message-ID: <187.1df86a37.2c6f9091@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77537 In a message dated 8/15/2003 8:57:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, subrosax at earthlink.net writes: > I wonder, do the UK editions have those same hideous illustrations? I > noticed that the covers are different. I absolutely cannot abide that > Grandpre woman. Her drawing of Snape in PoA is crime against humanity! NO they DON'T, thank all the gods!!!! It's one reason I also collect the UK editions - I DETEST those pictures!!!! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dunknegg at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 14:22:33 2003 From: dunknegg at yahoo.com (Rania Melhem) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 07:22:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who sets the passwords? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030816142233.41431.qmail@web20510.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77538 I think that we can be reasonably certain that the prefects set the password. I would guess that either Ron or Hermione decided to use mimbulus mimbeltonia as the password to make sure that Neville doesn't forget it. Wanda Sherratt wrote: I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the Gryffindor students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a new one every week. It seemed to me more than odd that the password for the first week would be "mimbulus mimbletonia". Any ideas as to why this word would have been chosen, or is it really just a huge coincidence? Wanda ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Sat Aug 16 14:29:12 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:29:12 -0000 Subject: Ron's academic achivements in book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77539 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne > wrote: > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Friday, August 15, 2003, 11:51:03 AM, Przemyslaw wrote: > > > > > Therefore I respectfully submit notion of Ron being worse > than Harry > > > in > > > classes is no longer valid. > > > > I actually don't recall Ron *ever* being much worse than > > Harry in their classes. > > > > They seem pretty equal, overall. > > i never got the impression while reading any of the books that > Ron was flunking his classes - I thought He just hated > homework and tests and isn't that (dare i say) normal? Me here: Side bar please... Harry is a better student than Ron in a few ways. We never here of Harry's handwriting getting progressively bigger the further he gets in his homework. Ron is forever crossing out things, I don't here of that from Harry.. and when Hermione corrects his homework, she says, thats fine Harry, I just had to correct mice to ice. Ron on the other hand had Hermione write an entire conclution for him. And that paper (if I'm not mistatken and I very well could be) was the paper that he got a failing grade on from Snape. And Ron got a passing. Harry didn't say anything because he didin't want to hear *again* how UNFAIR Snape is to him. Harry didn't deserve a rotten grade from Snape, if he did Hermione would have told Harry what he had was rubish and re-written it, and had harry copy out what it should say. But that is another topic "Harry's unfair life!" But, I do think that Ron and Harry are very normal about there school work. And frankly I wonder how Harry does any at *all* with everything going on in his life. And Ron is *well* your normal boy would plays sports and wants to have fun. Why make them grow up too soon... I can tell you now I wouldn't read the books if they were all perfect and did their homework on time and never got mad of goofed off or well, started necking in the D.A. room. That's the fun of the books. Ta ta for now.. Tj From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sat Aug 16 14:55:03 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:55:03 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77540 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: Winky: >There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for >Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. >Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his >memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting >with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments >like that? > Marianne: Heartgrabbers: > There were 2 for me in OoP. The first was right after Sirius' death > when Neville, legs still dancing, crawls his way down the stone > benches to Harry and asks, through his broken nose, if Sirius was a > friend of Harry's. And, when Harry nods, Neville says, "I'm sorry." > Here's this battered, hexed kid who's in way over his head dealing > with DEs, but who has the decency and empathy to ignore all that just > to say he's sorry. > > The second was the image of Harry sitting alone with his grief under > the tree by the lake. Me: I feel for Neville as well, but I have another episode in mind. It's the one when Harry learns about the state of Nevilles parents and what happened to them (at the end of GoF). It must have been traumatic for Harry to lose his parents, but if he had been raised by warm people who loved him, his life could have been nice anyway. Neville on the other hand has never had the opportunity to forget. His parents are still alive, but never there for him. He can't turn his back to the past and look forward. Every time he visits them he is reminded of what happened. Marika From andie at knownet.net Sat Aug 16 14:58:05 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:58:05 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77541 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > Is any one else out there tired of the differences in the UK and US > > editions, merchandising, movies etc. etc. etc?? I know that many of you don't think so, but personally, I enjoy the differences between the UK and US editions. I love to get both and compare them. It makes HP even more fun for me! :) grindieloe From rredordead at aol.com Sat Aug 16 14:59:38 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 14:59:38 -0000 Subject: Augustus vs. Algernon (was:Neville's Evil Gran?! ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77542 > > Mandy again: > > It seems as if there is both an Augustus and an Algernon > Rookwood. > > Brothers? Or, as another post has suggested, another pesky US vs > UK edition change? > > Can anyone help? > > Thanks > > Hi Mandy, > The Lexicon says under Augustus Rookwood, "In first British editions of The Order of the Phoenix, Rookwood's name is erroneously given as Algernon" > Katrina Thanks Katrina I had missed that. However, how do we know it was a mistake in the UK first edition? Surly that came first before the US 'translation'. I'd be interested in what JKR has to say about it. Especially if there turns out to be a connection between Uncle Algie and Algernon Rookwood. Of course it could be just a wild goose chase anyway. Lol Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Sat Aug 16 15:15:03 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:15:03 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77543 > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > > --Winky > > P.S. I think Harry will lose his scar when he defeats Voldemort :) sorry had to throw that in I have two heartbreakers that are not actually Harry's, so forgive me for breaking the rules a bit but these did make me weep. The first in PoA, the Shrieking Shack chapter, when Lupin embraces Sirius like a brother after realizing the extent of betrayal between them. A betrayal that had him hating his best friend for the belief he had murdered the Potters for 13 long years! I get sad just thinking about it. The second on is when Neville's mum gives Neville the sweetie wrapper and Neville puts it in his pocket. Sigh. Mandy. From editor at texas.net Sat Aug 16 15:17:43 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:17:43 -0500 Subject: Calling Lexicon Steve, was Augustus vs. Algernon (was:Neville's Evil Gran?! ) References: Message-ID: <001701c36409$8bbfec40$ef05a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77544 Katrina: > > The Lexicon says under Augustus Rookwood, "In first British > editions of The Order of the Phoenix, Rookwood's name is erroneously > given as Algernon" Mandy: > Thanks Katrina I had missed that. However, how do we know it was a > mistake in the UK first edition? Surly that came first before the > US 'translation'. > I'd be interested in what JKR has to say about it. Especially if > there turns out to be a connection between Uncle Algie and Algernon > Rookwood. The Lexicon is insanely selective about what it states as fact. If it says that it was a mistake, I'm betting that is based on some source. Why don't you email Lexicon Steve and ask? Or--Hey, Steve? What's it based on? ~Amanda From shaman at mac.com Sat Aug 16 15:32:26 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:32:26 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: <20030816102745.70882.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77545 Winky wrote: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? Yeah...Harry standing in front of the Mirror of Erised, seeing in it the family he's longed for so desperately for so long.... I tear up every time I think of it. -- Charlie From shaman at mac.com Sat Aug 16 15:35:54 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:35:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rookwood In-Reply-To: <200308161334.50756.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <531E9C0B-CFFF-11D7-9860-000393C324F6@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77546 On Saturday, August 16, 2003, at 07:34 AM, Carolina wrote: > Mags~~ > < called "Flowers for Algernon." >> > > Nice story, but wasn't it a man instead of a mouse? Algernon was the mouse they experimented on; Charly was the janitor they performed (*ahem*) human trials on following the early success w/ the mouse. Good book. -- Charlie From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 08:32:26 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:32:26 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77547 Allyson: > I wonder, do the UK editions have those same hideous illustrations? I > noticed that the covers are different. I absolutely cannot abide that > Grandpre woman. Her drawing of Snape in PoA is crime against humanity! > Margaret (me): I completely agree. I hate most of the drawings of characters in the books (with the exception of Dumbledore) and it's gotten to the point where I don't even register that there are drawings at the head of every chapter. After you posted that comment about her drawing of Snape, I had to go look for it though. It is a crime against humanity! (or at least illustration) I actually missed it my first time through, thinking it was someone else. It actually looked very similar to how I imagined Karkaroff, who I detested from his very first word. Where does it say Snape is balding and has a goatee? Did I miss that? I find that hard (though not impossible) to believe. I doubt Grandpre has even read the character discriptions, let alone the books themselves. ~Margaret, who is now addmitting to being firmly in the pro-Snape camp From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 11:39:16 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:39:16 -0000 Subject: Portkeys - Curses foiled again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77548 > > > bboy_mn: > > > I have a theory in this area of magical travel. Much like Star > Trek > > > Transporter teleportation, I think, with in reasonable limits, > magic > > > has a certain safeguard built in that prevent you from > materializing > > > inside solid objects. > > Me (Margaret): This would be a really nice thing to have, but one > of > > the most vivid images from the Weasley kitchen in GoF (at least > for > > me) is Mr Weasley explaining what "squelching" is, (apparating > poorly > > and leaving part of yourself behind: OW!) and talking about the > > magical reversal squad having to sort them out "they were stuck > you > > see, couldn't move either way" and having to perform memory charms > on > > the muggles who saw the random body bits. {snipped} Margaret, replying to my own post: It's called SPLINCHING not squelching. I seem to have sustituted this because I always imagined a rather squelchy sound when I thought about the mechanics of how being splinched would happen. It's been driving me nuts for days, I'm veryveryvery sorry, you would not believe how long it took me to find my own post again. ~Margaret, hoping the L.O.O.Ns do not send her howlers, because she did remedy her own mistake (without anyone(!) mentioning it to her) as soon as she possibly could. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 12:11:13 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 12:11:13 -0000 Subject: Who sets the passwords? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77549 Wanda: > I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the Gryffindor > students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a new > one every week. It seemed to me more than odd that the password for > the first week would be "mimbulus mimbletonia". Any ideas as to why > this word would have been chosen, or is it really just a huge > coincidence? I always assumed that the prefects made up the passwords, it would account for them always knowing what they were and when they were changed, as well as the fact that McGonagall is rarely seen near Gryffindor tower (I think it's mentioned in CoS that when she came to tell them Ginny had been taken into the chamber it was the first time arry had ever seen her there). If she had to tell the Fat Lady the new passwords, she'd have to be there on a fairly regular basis. (I also don't think they are changed nearly as often as once a week, it seemed like the password was mimbulus mimbeltonia for a really long time, but I'd have to check.) Given that the Gryffindor prefects are Ron and Hermione, both of whom are well aquainted with Neville's poor memory, it would be very kind of them to have made it something easy for him to remember for the beginning of the year. Get him off on the right foot and all that :-) ~Margaret (can you tell I have a soft spot for Neville?) From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 10:21:09 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:21:09 -0000 Subject: Severus, Sever Us? In-Reply-To: <5950D12C-C1A5-11D7-8D3E-0003939A0BA2@rcbooks.org> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77550 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Random wrote: > Funny, i'd always read the name as being based on the word "Severe", > and it seems this never gets mentioned, lost among all the severing and > the perseuses. What about "sever" and "nape" -- could it allude to this vampire idea? or that he'll be beheaded? From redfish5 at onetel.com Sat Aug 16 10:21:20 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 10:21:20 -0000 Subject: Harry/Cho SHIPping in book 5 (and Hermione's reaction for it -- H/H debunking) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77551 What about Hermione's slight frown during the aftermath of cho's kiss, I don't understand that, or the fact she wants and expects Harry to be a prefect? (I am a R/H but I'm never going to work it out without looking at evidence against? From keltobin at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 15:00:11 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:00:11 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? In-Reply-To: <200308161359.26333.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77553 I have been reading the Snape Vampire theories for a long time and I, personally, do not subscribe to them. Most of the responses on the matter harp on how the cannon supports, or detracts from, this theory. However, I think it would be interesting to discuss the following: First, assume that Snape IS, in fact, a vampire (no matter how you feel). 1. How is this relevant to the plot and how does this aid to further the development of the books? 2. Does this directly affect the course of the books or the final outcome of book 7? I am actually very interested to hear the theories on this. It must be the latent English teacher in me. Cheers! Kelly From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 16 15:46:53 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:46:53 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Vampire!Snape References: Message-ID: <3F3E51ED.70000@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77554 koinonia02 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wendy St John" > > Wendy St John: > I believe the vampire clues are intentional, which > means that she either A) put them in so that when we learn he's a > vampire, > she can say, "look, it was there all along;" or B) she's put the > clues in > to trick us into thinking he's a vampire, so she can say, "Gotcha!" > with > something else when he turns out *not* to be. > digger writes: There are so many references to vampires, but we have yet to meet one for sure. We are definitely being set-up with clues to recognise one, but I think JKR is leading us up her well-trodden path of mis-direction. Snape "seems the type, doesn't he?" So I don't think it will turn out to be him. If not Snape then who? I think it is Voldemort who has the vampiric blood, and I think he used it in part to gain his 'immortal' status. "He (Riddle) disappeared after leaving the school ... traveled far and wide ... sank so deeply into the Dark Arts, consorted with the very worst of our kind, underwent so many dangerous, magical transformations, that when he resurfaced as Lord Voldemort, he was barely recognizable" Prof Quirrell takes a years sabbatical and heads east for some practical experience. He meets a vampire in Romania, and thats where he encounters Voldemort. For someone who is in search of immortality, studying the 'undead' in Romania seems a good place to start. I bet Charlie, Krum, and Romania will feature in book 6/7 ;-) digger From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 15:49:43 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:49:43 -0000 Subject: Rookwood In-Reply-To: <531E9C0B-CFFF-11D7-9860-000393C324F6@mac.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Charlie Moody wrote: > On Saturday, August 16, 2003, at 07:34 AM, Carolina wrote: > > > Mags~~ > > < > called "Flowers for Algernon." >> > > > > Nice story, but wasn't it a man instead of a mouse? > > Algernon was the mouse they experimented on; Charly was the janitor > they performed (*ahem*) human trials on following the early success w/ > the mouse. > > Good book. > -- > Charlie It was made into a movie called Charlie if I remember correctly. I was about 8 when I saw it and I am WELL past 8 yo.... Fran From tuck668 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 15:41:11 2003 From: tuck668 at yahoo.com (tuck668) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:41:11 -0000 Subject: Fudge Naive or DE? (was "is there a reason?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77556 Fran wrote: > > > > > Everyone seems to think that Fudge is just naive but I think he > is > > a > > > LV supporter if not a DE. It's been said before and I'll say it again.. the world is not separated into good people and Death Eaters. I think that's pretty self-explanatory. Anna From jmmears at comcast.net Sat Aug 16 15:55:50 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:55:50 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? (was: Defending Ron (was Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77557 AAm wrote (quoting me): > Jo Serenadust wrote : Well, now *I'm* offended! Just to clarify, I was just kidding when I wrote that. I'm not *that* touchy, honest :--D. You left out my when you snipped. I continued: > > As for his rift with Harry in GoF ::sighs::, where does it indicate > > that he wants success to Harry's detriment? He's upset with Harry > > because he (wrongly) believes that Harry has put his name in the > > goblet without telling Ron in advance how he plans to do it, and > > then refuses to admit that he did so. AAm responded: > I have to advise you to reread the end of chapter 17 of GoF (sorry, I > can't quote it myself because I've got a foreign - non UK/US - > version of it, but if you follow my advice you will surely be able to > notice that Ron is "quite" bitter : he really lets things out when > Harry goes back to sleep in his dormitory. > Let me paraphrase it that way : > [Ron is talking to Harry] "Of course you didn't mean to do it ! You > didn't want those thousands galleons cos' you don't need them, you're > already sooooooooooo richy !!! And now you've just insulted me [Harry > said something like "you're a moron" to him], go to sleep, you lucky > boy, you have to sign autographs to the screaming crowd tomorrow > (aka : Gilderoy Lockhard's old grievance against Harry in Ron's > mouth)". I did go back and re-read the end of Chap. 17, as you suggested, and I'd characterize Ron as quite hurt and skeptical, rather than bitter. As far as really letting things out, my impression is that he's actually struggling to keep in control during this exchange. He's not lashing out at Harry for being champion, he's telling Harry that he would have liked to have been included in his apparently successful attempt to get his name in the goblet. He would have liked Harry to have confided in him, as he always has in the past, before going forward with the plan (and leaving Ron out). The only note of "bitterness" creeps in when Harry refuses to admit to Ron that he put his name in. Ron is quite wrong about that, of course, but Harry is so angry about Ron not believing him that he misses the signs of hurt and betrayal on Ron's part. That's what makes the whole episode so heartbreaking, IMO. Since you are apparently working from a translated copy of GoF, it's hard to know exactly how the nuances come across, so I can see how you may have a different impression of this passage. AAm continued: > OK, I have to admit that I may amplify things a little bit too much, > but Ron does not only harbour resentment against Harry simply on > account on what he considers being Harry's refusal to tell him what > really happened and how he managed to dupe everybody (something that > even Fred and George couldn't achieve). Definitely not. There is > something more, and that "something more" is described in the book. My point is that there really isn't the "something more" you speak of, IMO. Can I ask you to go back and read messages 52038 and 52039? This is Dicentra's famous "Anatomy of a Rift" essay where she does a spectacular job of dissecting this episode. Please don't be put off by the length, as it's very tightly and clearly written, and IMO covers these points better than anyone else has, before or since. It's truly a classic. (End of fangirly gushing about Dicey's posts) AAm. > Same thing with OoP : after his triumph as a Quidditch goal-keeper he > keeps talking about it again and again until the next day so that he > isn't even aware of Harry and Hermione's unforgettable trip with > Hagrid into the forbidden forest. But how would he have been aware of H&H's trip into the forbidden forest? Was he supposed to be keeping an eye on them while he played the most sucessful Quidditch match of his life? After all the time he's spent helping Harry bask in the glory of his achievements, I think he was entitled to spend a little time enjoying his own. I was surprised at how quickly he dropped any feelings of resentment and disappointment at their having missed it, once they explained why. Me: > > He doesn't even really refuse to speak to him. AAm. > Hey, wait a minute. You really like Ron, don't you ? Me: Er...does it really show? ;-) I said: > > As for the assumption that Hermione is destined to be MoM, I > > sincerely doubt that is likely unless the office is automatically > > awarded to the witch or wizard with the most NEWTS. Her people > > skills and political instincts are not nearly as well developed as > > her intellect. Frankly, I can see Ron being MoM more easily than I > > can see Hermione in that position, but it's purely speculative. AAm responded: > Now, *I* am offended. Hermione sometimes "offends" people (as we all > happen to do ;-) ) but you cannot say that her "people skills are not > nearly as well developped as her intellect". Not only is she always > telling Harry and Ron why other people do behave the way they do, but > she also explains to the two of them how these people, and how they - > R and H - are feeling. Of course, she sometimes acts like a bull in a > china shop but she's becoming more and more full of empathy for > everyone (I won't work out that precise point here but it would be > something worth discussing at length IMO : Who is Hermione beyond the > caricature ? Another topic coming soon ?). Now me: I really didn't mean to offend you, but I do stand by my statement about Hermione's "people skills" vs intellect. Yes, she does a good (possibly "too good") job of explaining other people's behavior and feelings, which makes her own poor people-handling all the more amusing. Do you really think she "empathises" with the house-elves, or the centaurs? I really hoped to see her develop more empathy for the feelings of others in OOP, but I didn't see any progress in this area. I do look forward to your "Hermione beyond the caricature" post. I think there's lots to explore there. Jo Serenadust From przepla at ipartner.com.pl Sat Aug 16 16:12:57 2003 From: przepla at ipartner.com.pl (Przemyslaw Plaskowicki) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:12:57 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry/Cho SHIPping in book 5 (and Hermione's reaction for it -- H/H debunking) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F3E5809.3040805@ipartner.com.pl> No: HPFGUIDX 77558 sebfish5 wrote (2003-08-16 12:21): > What about Hermione's slight frown during the aftermath of cho's >kiss, I don't understand that, or the fact she wants and expects >Harry to be a prefect? (I am a R/H but I'm never going to work it >out without looking at evidence against? > Regarding prefect's see this mine post: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74841, and dissenting opinion to it by Charlie Moody: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/74900 and rest of the thread. It is, I believe best analysis of prefect incident so far on this list (mainly because its includes both sides of controversy). I tried not be repetitive in what I posted, so I deliberately skipped all matters which were already covered here. If you are interested try our message search http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/messages Regarding, Hermione's frown, as I pointed out up in this thread, that frown (as other non-verbal communication) was addressed to Ron. Regards, -- Pshemekan Ps. Sorry for not including chapter and page information on my previous three posts. I forget to do it during reread, and was to lazy to come back and fill it in. From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 16:31:23 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:31:23 -0000 Subject: Who sets the passwords? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77559 > Wanda: > > I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the Gryffindor > > students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a new > > one every week. It seemed to me more than odd that the password > for > > the first week would be "mimbulus mimbletonia". Any ideas as to > why > > this word would have been chosen, or is it really just a huge > > coincidence? > Margaret responded: > > I always assumed that the prefects made up the passwords, it would > account for them always knowing what they were and when they were > changed, (snip) > Given that the Gryffindor prefects are Ron and Hermione, both of whom > are well aquainted with Neville's poor memory, it would be very kind > of them to have made it something easy for him to remember for the > beginning of the year. Get him off on the right foot and all that :-) > Now Ginger: Cheers to you Margaret! Long ago I wondered to the list the very question that Wanda posed. My problem was that in CoS (p.221 US paperback) the Slytherin password was "pureblood". I couldn't imagine Dumbledore approving, much less inventing that for a password. I had wondered if the heads of houses gave the passwords. I then wondered what this said about Snape. Was it real prejudice or keeping in character as "pure" Slytherin? Your idea of the prefects is so perfectly sensible and answers that old question of mine. I can now go back to working on the filk I promised Gail and quit wondering about how "Snape's Worst Memory" where he calls Lily a mudblood fits in with the "pureblood" password. Ginger, off to filk From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 16:31:45 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:31:45 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77560 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "belsum" > > Oh my god Mandy, I am totally with you on this one. I am _this > > close_ to breaking down and getting a UK set just to be able to > > compare on my own. ... > > Belsum > > > I wonder, do the UK editions have those same hideous illustrations? I > noticed that the covers are different. I absolutely cannot abide that > Grandpre woman. Her drawing of Snape in PoA is crime against humanity! > > Allyson bboy_mn: General: The latest book has much fewer changes that the first books. There were changes to the first few book that, as far as I am concerned, are gross error. On change in the latest book is when Fred and George say they managed to keep their spirits up; 'spirits' is 'pecker' in the UK edition. They managed to keep their peckers up. In the UK 'pecker' refers to the heart, and in the abstract sense to the spiritual or emotional heart. In the US, it refers to a male appendage located several inches south of the belt buckle (if you know what I mean; nudge, nudge, wink, wink). But, by and large, the two latest edtions are very close in the written content of the story. Previous editions, not so close. The UK edition does not have a chapter index. The paper dust cover and the actual hard cover are the same. The font is smaller; smaller point size, and is a thinner less bold font. That made it much harder for my tired weary eyes to read. The line spacing is much narrower in the UK edition, also making it more difficult to read. As already pointed out, there are no chapter illustrations. In the USA editions, the Ministry Decrees are in a special font with a hand written signature and show the Ministry of Magic Seal. Hand written notes are usually in a handwriting font. Those that are in standard text font usually have a handwritten signature. The Chapter Illustration- I don't mind that chapter illustrations in the US edition. They are sufficiently cartoony that they don't force a particular character image into you mind. That is they don't subconsciously force you to think this is how Snape is suppost to look. Because they are cartoon-like, Snape's image is like a characture, and I don't feel compelled to believe that's actually what he looks like. It would be much more difficult to like the illustrations if they had been drawn more life-like because the fall far short of my mental image. So, I think the choice of artist and the choice of illustration style was very good. Just a thought. bboy_mn From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 16:42:05 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:42:05 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77561 > > > --- "holly_phoenix_11" wrote: > > To Dumbledore, Tom Riddle is just Tom. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > > > > This actually goes back to my original observation, that Dumbledore > > said he was trying "to get people to call LV by his "proper name: > > Voldemort." Why make such a point of saying > > Voldemort was his "proper name" in the beginning? > > > Dmbledore said that in the very 1st book. It would have given away > the secret of the diary in CoS if he used Riddle's real name. > > aussie Ginger pops in with a thought: Maybe when Dumbledore is encouraging them to use the "proper" name (you know, the one that starts with V) he is encouraging them to face their fears. None of them are afraid of Tom Riddle. Most have never heard of Tom Riddle. The thing(y) that terrorizes them is the name they are afraid to say. Thus he is trying to get them to face their fears by calling fear personified by the name by which it is known to them. Calling him Tom in the MoM is also an example of calling someone by the real name. Tom is a human, a wizard and a personal acquaintance. Calling him Tom rather than an ego-inflated self- imposed title is calling him by the real person behind the persona. Just some thoughts. Although I like the logic of not spoiling the CoS surprise :) Ginger, off to filk, and really means it this time. From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 17:00:57 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (linlou43) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:00:57 -0000 Subject: Who sets the passwords? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > Wanda: > > I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the Gryffindor > > students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a new > > one every week. Margaret replied: > > I always assumed that the prefects made up the passwords, it would > account for them always knowing what they were and when they were > changed, as well as the fact that McGonagall is rarely seen near > Gryffindor tower (I think it's mentioned in CoS that when she came to > tell them Ginny had been taken into the chamber it was the first time > arry had ever seen her there). Now linlou: I was under the impression that the passwords are made up by the portraits that guard the common room entrances. In POA, Neville wrote them down in the first place because Sir Cadogen kept changing them and he couldn't keep up. However, do we know one way or the other if all the common room entrances are guarded by portraits? I know in the COS movie Slytherin's was not, but does the book describe it at all?( Sorry, not sure where my copy is at the moment.) If this is the case it may give us a further clue as to the extent of the abilities of the portraits. just a stray thought, linlou From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 17:14:48 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:14:48 -0000 Subject: Filk: The Burrow Fair Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77563 Based on Scarborough Fair/Canticle by Simon and Garfunkel Dedicated to Gail B. and CMC, who have led me to dig out the old S&G songbook. Note: The canticle is imposed over the verses in the original. I have tried to achieve this effect by putting the canticle in parentheses. You may want to bring a friend if you are like me and attempt to sing along with filks. I imagine a younger Harry (circa CoS) singing the verses whilst an older Harry (latter OoP) sings the canticle. The Burrow Fair. Are you going to the Burrow fair? Percy, Fred, George, Ginny and Ron. Remember me to one who lives there. Like a mum since my mum is gone. Tell her to knit me a sweater of jade. (In a bed in a tower with hangings around) Percy, Fred, George, Ginny and Ron. (Dreaming of hallway in buildings unknown) Like one for whom each Weasly's made. (Wrapped up in bedclothes the child who is dreaming) Like a mum since my mum is gone. (Sleeps and yet slithers in Ministry halls) Tell her to make me a dozen mince pies. (At the end of a hall a doorway appears) Percy, Fred, George, Ginny and Ron. (Prophesy there in beckoning dreams) Her domestic skills which all of us prize. (A wizard grasps and posseses a mind) Like a mum since my mum is gone. Tell her to make me fudge that is homemade. (Dumbledore's Army from thestrals dismounted) Percy, Fred, George, Ginny and Ron. (You-Know-Who orders Death Eaters to kill) With her added love, it's Honeyduke's grade. (And to fight for a cause that's best to be forgotten) Like a mum since my mum is gone. Peaceful thoughts and dreams to all, Ginger From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 17:19:57 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:19:57 -0000 Subject: Who sets the passwords? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77564 > > Wanda: > > > I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the > Gryffindor > > > students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a > new > > > one every week. > > > Margaret replied: > > > > I always assumed that the prefects made up the passwords, it would > > account for them always knowing what they were and when they were > > changed, as well as the fact that McGonagall is rarely seen near > > Gryffindor tower (I think it's mentioned in CoS that when she came > to > > tell them Ginny had been taken into the chamber it was the first > time > > arry had ever seen her there). > > > Now linlou: > > I was under the impression that the passwords are made up by > the portraits that guard the common room entrances. In POA, Neville > wrote them down in the first place because Sir Cadogen kept changing > them and he couldn't keep up. However, do we know one way or the > other if all the common room entrances are guarded by portraits? I > know in the COS movie Slytherin's was not, but does the book > describe it at all?( Sorry, not sure where my copy is at the moment.) > If this is the case it may give us a further clue as to the extent > of the abilities of the portraits. > > just a stray thought, > linlou Now Ginger (yeah, again) Good thought linlou! Although I think Sir Cadogen might not have been one to take orders from prefects or heads of houses if he could at all help it ;) You are right, though, that it does give us insights into the abilities of portraits. Sir Cadogen definately had those abilities. Pax et Lux, Ginger From tuck668 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 16:06:38 2003 From: tuck668 at yahoo.com (tuck668) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:06:38 -0000 Subject: Who sets the passwords? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77565 Margaret: > I always assumed that the prefects made up the passwords, it would > account for them always knowing what they were and when they were > changed, as well as the fact that McGonagall is rarely seen near > Gryffindor tower (I think it's mentioned in CoS that when she came to > tell them Ginny had been taken into the chamber it was the first time > arry had ever seen her there). If she had to tell the Fat Lady the > new passwords, she'd have to be there on a fairly regular basis. (I > also don't think they are changed nearly as often as once a week, it > seemed like the password was mimbulus mimbeltonia for a really long > time, but I'd have to check.) > > Given that the Gryffindor prefects are Ron and Hermione, both of whom > are well aquainted with Neville's poor memory, it would be very kind > of them to have made it something easy for him to remember for the > beginning of the year. Get him off on the right foot and all that :-) Though this makes a lot of sense, I always thought that it was the Fat Lady (or, in PoA, Sir Cadogan) who made up the passwords. In PoA, I'm not sure of the exact spot, but when Sir Cadogan has replaced the Fat Lady following the 'slashing incident'.. it says that he changes the password several times a day, making it very difficult to remember them.. Anna From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 16 10:07:50 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 06:07:50 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Justice in the WW (WAS: Re: Umbridge's great success) References: Message-ID: <3F3E0276.8030907@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77566 feetmadeofclay wrote: > Well... You have a point about Riddle's comment. I meant that the > same Queen of England would be Queen of her magical subjects. From > what I can see they still live in England and the English governement > seems aware of them. I find the idea that the English crown would > just allow the magical to form a seperate form of self-government > within its borders highly improbable. What makes you think the muggles could do anything about it? > If the WW is nothing more than some South American style dictatorship It's more like the Soviet system, to my mind. Or something out of Kafka. From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 18:23:48 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 11:23:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030816182348.60122.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77567 I know that many of you don't think so, but personally, I enjoy the differences between the UK and US editions. I love to get both and compare them. It makes HP even more fun for me! :) grindieloe What exactly were the differences in the editions this year. I really did not see how the UK book could be very different. The US book was highly loaded with British words, phrases and such. We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 18:36:17 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 18:36:17 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? (was: Defending Ron (was Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" wrote: > My point is that there really isn't the "something more" you speak > of, IMO. Can I ask you to go back and read messages 52038 and > 52039? This is Dicentra's famous "Anatomy of a Rift" essay where > she does a spectacular job of dissecting this episode. Please don't be put off by the length, as it's very tightly and clearly written, and IMO covers these points better than anyone else has, before or since. It's truly a classic. (End of fangirly gushing about Dicey's posts) > Jo Serenadust Thanks for pointing out these posts. They are truly excellent. And before I'm accused of "me, too", I pull this paragraph out of your (well-written) longer post for those who might have skimmed over it and missed the reference. Ravenclaw Bookworm From jkscherme at adelphia.net Sat Aug 16 19:09:39 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:09:39 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: <200308041217.07975.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77569 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > El Lun 04 Ago 2003 11:54, arrowsmithbt escribi?: > > Yes, I'm prejudiced towards my own theory; no, I won't dismiss other > > theories off- > > hand if they look good, but so far as I know this is the > > interpretation that comes > > closest to the Occams Razor criteria. If it gets rubbished by better > > theorizing or > > additional information, then so be it. > > > > This Harry Potter stuff is hard work sometimes! > > > > Kneasy > > The problem with this theory is that don't say anything we didn't know yet. If > all the question in OoP is that Harry is the chosen one, I'll throw the book > to Jo's head. I knew perfectly well before that Harry was the one, so, the > prophecy, what for? Unless we can grab new information of it, the prophecy is > useless (from a reader's POV). > > silmariel Where? In which book, prior to the revelation of the Prophecy, does it say that Harry is the chosen one? Up to that point, all we know about him is that he's "the boy who lived;" he looks like his father, has his mother's eyes, is a talented flier, and has a penchant for rule breaking, and getting into life threatening situations that ultimately force him to face Voldemort in some manner. We know that Voldemort and Harry have a "connection" of some sort, but what that entails is very slowly revealed. I'm an Occum's Razor theory fan. Until I find out what JKR has in store in books 6 & 7, I'm through with trying to figure this one out. Frankly, the myriad of theories lead to nothing unless you're going to write your own fanfic. Signing off on this one...madeyesgal From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 16 19:20:22 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:20:22 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Justice in the WW References: <1061019973.3234.40057.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004601c3642b$70aa82e0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 77570 Golly: >Well... You have a point about Riddle's comment. I meant that the >same Queen of England would be Queen of her magical subjects. From >what I can see they still live in England and the English governement >seems aware of them. I find the idea that the English crown would What we don't know (and which has created speculation in the past) is exactly _how_ the English government is made aware of things that the MoM deems it appropriate for them to know. I'm not convinced that the Queen is the means of transition (but then there's nothing in canon to contradict it!) I've posted before in terms of what means of communication the _MoM_ might think, from its WW perspective, the best way to do it, and wondered if there is a wizard working in the central part of the English civil service, the Cabinet Office. S/he doesn't actually work _for_ the Cabinet Office, so there's no records: s/he is officially on secondment from another department. The only thing is that anyone who starts wondering _which_ department, how long s/he's been there, what exactly s/he does, etc, gets a sudden overpowering urge to think about something else... What is the MoM mole really doing there? Mostly I think passing information back to the MoM about possible threats to its secrecy: giving the MoM the opportunity and the impetus to put new enchantments in place to circumvent whatever the Muggles are thinking about doing. But if something has to be passed in the other direction, then they can do that too - a top priority paper will go via the head of the civil service straight to the Prime Minister's desk. I think the WW _understands_ bureaucracy, because it is one. Therefore it looks for another bureaucracy to channel information. >Well, then it is even more of straw man. If the point is to discuss >the implications of corruption then in creating a government with a >system to easily bent towards corrupt, you create a straw man. Well, a bureaucracy isn't necessarily corrupt. It _can_ be highly moral and have all sorts of internal safeguards and procedures which keep its employees on the straight and narrow. Basically what matters in the bureaucracy is the system. The system, the way things are done, is the boss. But here's what I think is the _root_ of the problem in the WW. The way to change the system itself appears to be a Wizarding Congress. But if you have a Wizarding Congress, the wizards who go to it are the ones who are motivated towards matters political. Again, where are wizards who are motivated by matters political going to be working? Answer - for the bureaucracy. It is self-perpetuating and "stuck". >If the WW is nothing more than some South American style dictatorship >with its justice, rules and enforcement flowing all from one single >source, its weaknesses are obvious and Rowling belabours them. But there isn't any suggestion that the WW is a dictatorship. Fudge is the minister, and he must work within the system, as must they all. Umbridge cannot impose herself on the School without directives to back her up. And even more importantly, the system appears to have the _support_ of the general population. Although characters criticise individual members of the bureaucracy, none of them, even muggle borns, do any bitching about the need to overthrow the system and install a new one. Apart from the DEs that is - and of course they _do_ want a dictatorship/ >The end result is also to paint witches and wizards as foolish (for >trusting their government) or powerless against it. I don't get the >feeling that is what I'm supposed to be getting though in the books. I think that _is_ a possible reading of the books though, even if it's not yours... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From Tasukibeth1 at cs.com Sat Aug 16 19:37:49 2003 From: Tasukibeth1 at cs.com (Tasukibeth1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:37:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heartgrabbing moment Message-ID: <18d.1e430de0.2c6fe20d@cs.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77571 Winky says: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > > Beth says: In OotP. the most emotional moment for me was when Molly had the breakdown while the boggart showed her family dying. in the WHOLE SERIES, nothing twists my heart like the scene in GoF when Moody performs the Cruciatus curse on the spider and Neville clutches his desk, white-knuckled. Hermione sees Neville and screams "STOP IT!" to Moody. No one, at this point, knows why Neville reacts this way. So sad!!!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sandyluppino at comcast.net Sat Aug 16 19:42:34 2003 From: sandyluppino at comcast.net (sjlupin) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:42:34 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > > --Winky > > P.S. I think Harry will lose his scar when he defeats Voldemort :) > sorry had to throw that in There are SO many ... one that springs to mind because we just listened to it in the car, is the scene with Neville at St. Mongo's at Christmas. That scene is so sublty and beautifully written. When Neville says 'Thanks, Mum' and puts the wrapper in his pocket, my heart just breaks! sjlupin From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 16 19:48:40 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:48:40 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77573 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: Winky: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > Me: The moment towards the end of GOF when Harry's feelings about all that has happened begin to overtake him and he wishes that Ron would look away. Molly Weasley hugs him and he obviously wants to have a good bawl. This is something I have known in the past when I've wanted to let everything out and the wretched "stiff upper lip - boys don't cry" which is often drummed into UK lads gets in the way. I felt so sorry for HP here, caught between the two extremes. From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Aug 16 20:13:14 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:13:14 EDT Subject: Augustus vs. Algernon (was:Neville's Evil Gran?! ) Message-ID: <3a.3d1cfc13.2c6fea5a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77574 Katrina: > The Lexicon says under Augustus Rookwood, "In first British >editions of The Order of the Phoenix, Rookwood's name is erroneously >given as Algernon" Mandy: >Thanks Katrina I had missed that. However, how do we know it was a >mistake in the UK first edition? Surly that came first before the >US 'translation'. Except that this is OoP that we're talking about. The UK and US editiions were published simultaneously (well, OK, five hours apart). Given that JKR had contracts with both publishers before completing the manuscript, I doubt that Bloomsbury got hold of it much ahead of Scholastic. If, in the UK GoF, we have an Augustus Rookwood of the Dept of Mysteries mentioned at Bagman's court appearance as having passsed on Ministry secrets (I'm working from memory - a child has had the audacity to borrow the book ) and then in the UK OoP, we have an Algernon Rookwood convicted of leaking MoM secrets, application of Occam's razor suggests that "Algernon" is an error. OK, it might not be, but in that case, we have to assume that JKR's US editors made a mistake, *assumed* it was an error and "corrected" it, presumably with JKR's consent. In previous discussions of the discrepancies between the UK and US editions, it has become clear, at least to me, that the UK and US editorial processes are quite separate. Time and again we find errors that have been corrected in one edition and left in the other. Why this should be, I can't imagine. Why, if her US editor picks up an apparent error (which presumably needs to be checked with the author before correction), this isn't then brought to the attention of JKR's UK publisher (or vice versa) is something I've never fathomed. ~Eloise Although he could just be Augustus Algernon Rookwood, which has a certain ring to it. Or perhaps he's *really* Algernon, but before he was outed as a DE and a mole, assumed the name Augustus as he felt it cut a bit more of a dash. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eloiseherisson at aol.com Sat Aug 16 20:34:12 2003 From: eloiseherisson at aol.com (eloiseherisson at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:34:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK vs US Harry Potter Message-ID: <140.1753f876.2c6fef44@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77575 While I'm about it.... Melanie (princessmelabela) >What exactly were the differences in the editions this year. I really did not >see how the UK book could be very different. The US book was highly loaded >with British words, phrases and such. I'd been wondering whether, and if so how much, the text had been Americanised this time. For example, what is the tailor's dummy in the window of Purge and Dowse (the shop fronting St Mungo's, Ch. 22) wearing in the US edition? In the UK edition it's a pinafore dress. Has that been changed to jumper as Harry's jumper was changed to sweater in PS/SS? ~Eloise [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 20:49:23 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:49:23 -0000 Subject: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/13/2003 12:48:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, > jwcpgh at y... writes: > > > So I think that the brevity of Snape's visits to Grimmauld Place has > > to do with Snape rather than the Order. > > Perhaps he doesn't truly trust the protections on the house, & fears that > Voldykins might be able to trace the place through his Dark Mark if he stays > there too long? > > Sherrie Laura again- I bet you're right-that would be in keeping with Snape's general mistrust of everything and everyone. Especially if he's aware of the Black family drama and the Kreachur situation. And we know he's not crazy about Remus... Voldykins? Hee hee...if there's an LV plush toy, that's what it could be called...I saw some Nazgul plushies in a store-what kind of person would give one of those to a little kid? *shivers* > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Sat Aug 16 21:36:35 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:36:35 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > I completely agree. I hate most of the drawings of characters in the > books (with the exception of Dumbledore) and it's gotten to the > point where I don't even register that there are drawings at the head > of every chapter. After you posted that comment about her drawing of > Snape, I had to go look for it though. It is a crime against > humanity! (or at least illustration) I actually missed it my first > time through, thinking it was someone else. It actually looked very > similar to how I imagined Karkaroff, who I detested from his very > first word. Where does it say Snape is balding and has a goatee? > Did I miss that? I find that hard (though not impossible) to > believe. I doubt Grandpre has even read the character discriptions, > let alone the books themselves. > > > ~Margaret, who is now addmitting to being firmly in the pro-Snape camp I wish I could say the same! At first I didn't notice the illustrations at all, but now that I've fully realized how god-awful they are, they're like a car crash. I can't help but look! I'm going to replace all my books with UK editions. Besides, I'm pretty sure there was criminal malfeasance involved with the "translation" of the first couple of books. How stupid do they think Americans are? By the way, doesn't it feel good to be in the pro-Snape camp?! Allyson From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Sat Aug 16 21:59:14 2003 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:59:14 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus Mimbletonia (a remedy for fears?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77578 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote about Neville's plant Mimbulus Mimbletonia: > Uncle Algie got it in Assyria. Page 186, US version of OP, towards > the bottom. I for one KNOW this is going to be v. important, so I > think it would benefit us all to figure out everything we can about > it. > [...] > I for one don't know for sure if Great Uncle Algie is all that > great. He nearly killed Neville trying to force the magic out of > him. He almost drowned him, then he nearly killed him when he > dropped him out the window. What if Gran and Algie aren't who they > appear to be? Let's not forget that Algie got Trevor for Neville, > then he gets the plant. Trevor always seemed important to me. > [...] > Anyway, I'm very anxious to hear any ideas about Neville's plant. > James Redmont There is a plant called "MIMULUS", which is used in Bach Flower Therapy. It is "the remedy for known fears. In other words whenever you are frightened of something or you are anxious about something, and you can say what that something is, then Mimulus is the remedy to take. Mimulus fears are everyday fears - fear of public speaking, of the dark, of aggressive dogs, or of illness or pain. [...] Mimulus is used as a type remedy for people who tend to be nervous, timid and shy generally. Sometimes people of this type may blush easily or stammer, and they will usually avoid social occasions and any event where they will be in the limelight. Mimulus is the remedy to encourage the quiet courage and strength that lies hidden in such people, so that they can face the everyday trials of life with steadfastness." (http://www.bachcentre.com/centre/38/mimulus.htm) Maybe Uncle Algie is not evil after all, but in fact just trying to help Neville? Yours, Florentine From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 23:05:30 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:05:30 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77579 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" > wrote: > > My point is that there really isn't the "something more" you speak > > of, IMO. Can I ask you to go back and read messages 52038 and > > 52039? This is Dicentra's famous "Anatomy of a Rift" essay where > > she does a spectacular job of dissecting this episode. ... > > > > Jo Serenadust > > Thanks for pointing out these posts. They are truly excellent. And > before I'm accused of "me, too", I pull this paragraph out of your > (well-written) longer post for those who might have skimmed over it > and missed the reference. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm bboy_mn: Well yes, Dicentra's Posts titled 'Anatomy of a Rift - Parts 1 & 2' are a most excellent essay, but I recommend- Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42739 Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43801 Why, you might ask? Because I wrote them, I reply. Contain line by line analysis (Am Ed) of the first time Ron and Harry speak after Harry's name comes out of the Goblet of Fire. There are other Posts on the same subject but I think these two thread are the most comprehensive analysis by this group of the fight between Harry and Ron in 'Goblet of Fire'. Opinions weighing strongly on both sides. Direct Links to 'Anatomy of a Rift'- Anatomy of a Rift (Part 1 of 2) LONG http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52038 Anatomy of a Rift (Part 2 of 2) LONG http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52039 Just thought I would pass it along. For the record; I say BETRAYAL. bboy_mn From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sat Aug 16 23:32:37 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:32:37 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77580 I'm interested in the line, "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal..." First of all, the word "mark" could have two meanings: 1. "to put a mark on something" - I assumed this was a reference to Harry's scar, the mark he received from Voldemort when V. tried to kill him. But then I realized that there is a second meaning for the word: 2. "to notice or observe...to consider" - in this case, there wouldn't necessarily be anything physical going on at all. Voldemort could just have *identified* Harry as the one he was looking for. It doesn't necessarily mean that he *made* Harry into his match. It's a piddly distinction, but it could turn out to be worth something. In this case, Dumbledore could be wrong, as was the person who relabelled the prophecy in the MoM. Voldemort might have "marked" the wrong person, and the transfer of powers will not be decisive in defeating him. Next point, in what way is Harry Voldemort's "equal"? He has nowhere near as much power; even though he's outwitted him 4 times, he himself says that it had as much to do with luck and help as anything. My dictionary says that one can be an equal in "rank or standing", in "power or achievement, or in any specified quality," and "in age; a contemporary". Which of these would match Harry and Voldemort? I'd say it could be #1 - Harry is as *important* as Voldemort, although in this book he is at the lowest point of his influence and importance in the WW. It could be #2, though not in an obvious way; it may be because of some innate quality, not sheer wizarding ability or knowledge, and perhaps Voldemort is drawn to this inner power that Harry has, and recognizes the threat. Wanda From MagRig13 at aol.com Sat Aug 16 23:41:51 2003 From: MagRig13 at aol.com (american_pie8887) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:41:51 -0000 Subject: Rookwood In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77581 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Charlie Moody > wrote: > > On Saturday, August 16, 2003, at 07:34 AM, Carolina wrote: > > > > > Mags~~ > > > < > > called "Flowers for Algernon." >> > > > > > > Nice story, but wasn't it a man instead of a mouse? No they did it to the mouse as well. That was part of the symbolism was that what happened to the mouse was going to happen to Charlie. ~~Mags From MagRig13 at aol.com Sat Aug 16 23:48:55 2003 From: MagRig13 at aol.com (american_pie8887) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:48:55 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77582 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > > --Winky > The story of what happened to the Marauders throughout their life always tugs at my heartstrings. I mean talk about having it tough! (esp Remus!) Another one was when Neville puts the wrapper in his pocket from his mom. That always makes me tear up. ~~Mags From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 23:57:02 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 23:57:02 -0000 Subject: Non Admin. Chat going on Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77583 As you can see, I will be in the chat room if anyone wants to talk Hp for the next hour or so, hopefully I'll see y'all there Garrett (who is from texas :-D) From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 00:16:42 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:16:42 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77584 I just don't "get" this Secret Keeper arrangement and am wondering if anyone else has given this much thought. Yes, I understand the *idea* behind it and that was illustrated nicely when Harry read the address of 12 Grimmaud Place off DD's parchement and the place "appeared" to him. My question is this, once the Secret Keeper imparts his information to you, are you free to pass it on? I'd say not. It was made pretty darn clear that ONLY the Secret Keeper would be able to impart said secret. So, following that path, what happens if you try? (Say Mundungus is expecting a delivery of dented cauldrons and wants to give #12 to UPS.) Will the person you are speaking to just hear jibberish? See you moving your mouth but nothing coming out? (Flash on that annoying Verizon guy "can you hear me NOW?"). What if you tried to write it down and hand it to someone. Would the paper be blank or would you unkowingly hand the person you're trying to tell a tic-tac-toe diagram? Do you suddenly "forget" either what you were about to say or the whole secret? Or maybe you'd just be struck dead on the spot. Any speculation? Melpomene, who should have better things to think about. From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 00:37:46 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:37:46 -0000 Subject: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77585 > > CW replies: > > > > Am I the only one who thinks you are over-reacting by posting such > an > > unpleasant message ? Ok, I forgot the order of something when I > was > > tired late at night, and I've thanked Kathy for pointing out my > > mistake. For goodness sake, its a free discussion board about a > > series of children's books. > > Talisman, who, like Snape, does not have unlimited leisure time, > points out: > > 1) JKR has said about 100 times, and it has been repeated on this > list about 1000 times, that she is not writing her HP series for > children. Opps again, CW. > > 2)Discussions, free or otherwise, are always more enjoyable and > productive if people actually know what they are talking about. > > 3)It's a sorry state of affairs if preferring actual canon makes one > an elitist. > > > Talisman, who knows how to check her text. Me: Sorry if I was unpleasant, but I wasn't responding to your post exclusively, CW. I really don't think it's too much trouble to check a page number if you're not sure about something. Thank you, Talisman, for backing me up. I'm not asking people to make it some kind of chore that makes HP4GU unpleasant, but when you're not 100% about something, shouldn't you at least admit it, and ask for confirmation (for people who are busy, for instance, at work, and don't have their books with them) from other members? It would keep people from beginning elaborate theories about something based on false information. James "lover not a fighter, hugs for all HP fans" Redmont From jendiangelo at cox.net Sun Aug 17 00:41:29 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:41:29 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77586 Winky wrote: There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments like that? P.S. I think Harry will lose his scar when he defeats Voldemort :) sorry had to throw that in Now me (AccioSirius Jen): I also have quite a few... many already listed by others, including Winky's above. Another one that stands out that may seem silly, but it just made my heart ache was when Sirius left on Buckbeak in PoA. Harry just stood there staring as they flew off. Poor Harry, here he thought he'd be going onto a better home, and that chance was flying away. Thanks for letting me share! Jen BTW, I also think that Harry WILL defeat Voldemort and lose his scar. I just couldn't imagine his death - it's too horrible to think that he wouldn't live! From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 00:47:43 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:47:43 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Scriptwriting for Pleasure and Profit In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77587 Laurasia was frolicking merrily on her first ever Theory Bay Self- Guided Tour inspecting the damage inflicted by Hurricane Jo when she passed by the Canon Museum to hear a small section of conversation drifting through the window. It appeared to be a conversation about the use of writing in HP. Laurasia moved a few steps closer to the window the better to hear There were three people discussing how each instance of writing in HP is a significant part of developing the book Interesting! Dicentra wrote: >"These are the letters from Hogwarts with the list of textbooks for >the next year. They were all delivered to the Burrow, and Arthur >observes that Dumbledore knows where Harry is." > >"So Dumbledore presents Harry with his new role as a second-year >student," grumbled Cindy. "Big whoop." > >"Well, sometimes a letter is just a letter," replied Dicentra. "I >don't think this one really counts, do you think?" > >"Probably not," replied Elkins. "See if you can find writing that >plays a larger role in Harry's life." `Hang on!' Laursia mumbled to herself as she turned towards the entrance to the museum Surely this piece of writing is much more significant than is being assumed here She stumbled around trying to find the entrance to the Museum, however, seeing as this was her first trip to Theory Bay she ended up getting lost and falling headfirst into a large patch of particularly spiky shrubbery somewhere near the door. By the time she had untangled herself from the foliage it seemed the conversation had ceased and two of its participants left `Good thing too ' she mumbled to herself as she tried to remove all traces of plant material from her hair. `That one with the paddle Don't want to meet her in a bad mood ' She glanced over her shoulder just before she entered the door just to make sure Cindy had left for good, and then entered the museum. Laurasia wandered around the museum aimlessly before finally seeing two people over the far side near the men's toilet One of them appeared as if they wouldn't be standing up had they not impaled the back of their robes over a candle bracket coming out from the wall, the other was busily assembling papers in a display cabinet. `Hello there!' Laurasia said merrily as she approached the pair. `You must be Dicentra! I overheard a small section of the conversation that you were having with Cindy and Elkins just a little while ago. I thought I could add something to your display ' Dicentra looked surprised, but due to the fact that she did not carry a large paddle Laurasia continued towards her. `It's about this piece of writing here ' Laurasia fumbled through the discards pile next to Dicentra before extracting a few envelopes addressed to The Burrow from Harry's second year. `Those are just the envelopes addressed to Harry and the five youngest Weasleys.' Interuppted Dicentra before Laurasia could begin her addition to the theory. `They're just the letters from Hogwarts with the list of textbooks for the next year. That's nothing important Sometimes a letter is just a letter.' `But they can symbolise much more than that ' Laurasia said cryptically. `You said it yourself- All these envelopes were delivered to The Burrow, and Arthur remarks that Dumbledore must know that Harry is there.' Dicentra looked confused. Here eyes seemed to be lingering on the small fragments of shrubbery still clinging to Laurasia's hair. `But why is that important?' Dicentra said. `Elkins, Cindy and I decided that the examples of writing from CoS were all concerned with transforming oneself. I hardly think Harry getting a letter confirming that he's in second year really transforms him in any way ' `But it's not the contents of the letter that transforms him- it's the fact that he gets it at *The Burrow.* An *identical* letter to all the other Weasley children. And *Dumbledore* had sent it to him. If you're looking for a really big transformation in Harry's life- I think the fact that he's finally a surrogate family is pretty big! He does admit that his time at The Burrow was the happiest of his life. So by getting his Hogwarts' letter whilst he's staying there it confirms that he's really a part of their family. His letter is identical to all the other Weasley's after all! And *Dumbledore* sends it to him- it shows that Dumbledore accepts that Harry is now a part of the Weasley family as well as Harry accepting it. If you want an example of Dumbledore assigning people roles through his written works- this one is pretty important.' Dicentra looked stunned by all this new information. Stoned!Harry who had finally removed himself from the candle bracket was now crawling around on the ground. `Yeah!' he added,' What she said The Weasleys' really like me ' `And,' Laurasia continued, ` Seeing as the most climactic part of the book is Harry diving into the Chamber of Secrets to rescue Ginny Weasley, we can see how this new role that Harry as been assigned, one of part of a family, has truly affected his character. Family becomes increasingly important in CoS- what, with Hagrid being arrested leading to Harry and Ron nearly being killed by Aragog, and Hermione's petrification All these events are because Harry thinks of these people as his family. So, this piece of writing- it's highly significant from a thematic point of view. It enables Harry to feel connected with the people around him. And that, is how it is.' Laurasia finished lamely and looked around Stoned!Harry was still crawling around on the floor, but Dicentra had not moved "I'll just wait over here then, until you've digested all that, eh?' ~<(Laurasia)>~ From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 01:00:39 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 01:00:39 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77588 Melpomene wrote: > I just don't "get" this Secret Keeper arrangement and am wondering if > anyone else has given this much thought. Yes, I understand the *idea* > behind it and that was illustrated nicely when Harry read the address > of 12 Grimmaud Place off DD's parchement and the place "appeared" to > him. > My question is this, once the Secret Keeper imparts his information > to you, are you free to pass it on? I'd say not. It was made pretty > darn clear that ONLY the Secret Keeper would be able to impart said > secret. > So, following that path, what happens if you try? (Say Mundungus is > expecting a delivery of dented cauldrons and wants to give #12 to > UPS.) Will the person you are speaking to just hear jibberish? See > you moving your mouth but nothing coming out? (Flash on that annoying > Verizon guy "can you hear me NOW?"). What if you tried to write it > down and hand it to someone. Would the paper be blank or would you > unkowingly hand the person you're trying to tell a tic-tac-toe > diagram? > Do you suddenly "forget" either what you were about to say or the > whole secret? > Or maybe you'd just be struck dead on the spot. Any speculation? I think that you could pass the information on to anyone who you choose, it's just that Number 12 Grimmauld Place would never appear to them. If Harry, for instance, told Umbridge that Sirius was at #12, she would be able to go there, stand in front of number 11, except that #12 would never appear to her, because Dumbledore never told her. So, using your example, if Dung got some of his dodgy cauldrons delivered and said 'Drop them off at Number 12 Grimmauld Place.' I'm, sure that he would be understood perfectly, except that the people dropping them off would never be able to find number 12. It's makes perfect sense when you think that Kreacher went over the the Malfoys ver Christmas- if Kreacher was there it must have been pretty clear to Narcissa et al that Sirius was at the Black home (Number 12). So, theoretically, Narcissa must know where that is. BUT, because Dumbledore hasn't told her, she would never be able to get in. Also- note that the note that Dumbledore gives to Harry has a full sentence procclaiming that "The Headquarters fot the Order of the Phoenix etc..." So perhaps you have to *name* the place a certain thing for it to have the charm placed around it. So, therefore, Narcissa may be looking for 'Sirius's House' not 'Headquarters.' And only Dumbledore telling someone where 'Headquarters' was found would let the location appear to them. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From patnkatng at cox.net Sat Aug 16 20:26:21 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:26:21 -0000 Subject: Crookshanks = Regulus Black ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77589 Summer said: > Isn't it possible that Crookshanks and Regulus could be one and the > same? Anyone? Just a thought. An interesting thought. My astronomy software says this about the star Regulus: Alpha Leonis, "Regulus," is the 21st brightest star in the sky. For thousands of years Regulus has been associated with royalty and kings. Called "the Kingly One" by the Arabs, "The King" by the Babylonians, Regulus is a double star with an orange 7.9 magnitude companion 177" distant. And yes, it is the brightest star in the constellation Leo. I'm not sure if there's more connection than that. > > Summer - who really should get out more :) Katrina (who really should, too!) From Batchevra at aol.com Sat Aug 16 20:28:33 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 16:28:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK vs US Harry Potter Message-ID: <199.1e7ba5d5.2c6fedf1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77590 In a message dated 8/16/03 2:24:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, princessmelabela at yahoo.com writes: > > I know that many of you don't think so, but personally, I enjoy the > differences between the UK and US editions. I love to get both and > compare them. It makes HP even more fun for me! :) > > grindieloe > > > > What exactly were the differences in the editions this year. I really did > not see how the UK book could be very different. The US book was highly > loaded with British words, phrases and such. > > > There are some minor differences, like a word or two added or deleted. Only one major difference in a spell, in the Pensieve scene of Snape's worst memory, Sirius uses Locomotor Mortis in the US version, Petrificus totalus in the UK version. There are differences like that. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 21:25:04 2003 From: samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com (samwise_the_grey) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 21:25:04 -0000 Subject: Harry's glasses/now origins of AK In-Reply-To: <200308152356.42387.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77591 > From the wikkipedia: > [[[The term may come from the Arabic Abra Kadabra, meaning 'let the things be destroyed' or from the Aramaic abhadda kedhabhra, meaning 'disappear like this word'. Rather than being used as a curse, the phrase is believed to have been used as a means of treating illness. It would help explain why a victim of AK is in perfect health save from being dead. Perhaps some evil wizard discovered a new way to use the spell. It's been shown that the wizard's intent is more important than the actual incantation. ~Samwise From liliana at worldonline.nl Sat Aug 16 22:04:05 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 22:04:05 -0000 Subject: The gleam & protection (was:Re: what is "the heart of it all"?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77592 "Wendy St John" wrote: > >The gleam *was* because of the blood. Harry is protected by > something in his blood, and now > that blood > > also flows in Voldemort's veins. HOWEVER, part of Harry's > protection is > > reliant upon Harry returning to his "home" once a year, more > specifically > > to Privet Drive where his blood relatives live > > the first year > after > > Voldemort's resurrection, they were both protected. But once that > year has > > elapsed, Harry will continue to be protected because he'll return > to Privet > > Drive, thus renewing the protection. But the protection in > Voldemort's > > blood will "expire" because he won't have returned to Privet Drive Then "Salit" wrote: > Harry's protection stems from the love of > his mother and her sacrifice. > Voldemort took Harry's blood but he is completely devoid of humane > feelings, especially love. In fact, that power was how he was forced > off when he possessed Harry at the end of OoP. If the protection > Harry has is based on love, it will not protect Voldemort in > the same way, of at all. If Voldemort is relying on that to save > him then he is bound to be disappointed... > Now me: I have been digesting DD's (rather poor IMO) explanation in OOtP for quite a while, when suddenly connecting the gleam in DD's eyes and the blood protection. But for a somewhat different reason. As DD states to Harry, he knew that his most complex and powerful protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if LV ever returned to full power. So DD gave Harry the blood (sacrifice) protection because LV would underestimate it (OOtP UK ed., pg 736). A bit later DD states that while Harry is with his relatives at Privet Drive and he can still call it home, LV cannot harm him there. This last statement of DD is what I believe caused the gleam in his eyes in GOF, as he understood that LV had realized what shield exactly Harry was protected by, and that LV consequently had realized that it was useless for him (LV I mean) to try and harm Harry at Privet Drive. So DD could still allow Harry to go to Privet Drive during summer holiday (the need to return there once a year as, simply, Hogwarts is closed during this time). The gleam is one of triumph for DD as he has outwitted LV with this. Laylalast (aka Lilian) From tabs183 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 16 22:10:06 2003 From: tabs183 at yahoo.com (tabs183) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 15:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: discovery of Harry's mysterious heritage Message-ID: <20030816221006.5086.qmail@web12202.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77593 I have been thinking this quite seriously now and has even discussed it with my best friend. I think that on Book 6, all the mysteries of Harry's Parent's Past and all the people who surrounds them will be revealed. Therefore having Harry to decide what he has to do on Book 7 as he will know everything about him and his purpose to the Wizarding World. I hope so that this will all be known as it is high time Rowling reveals all the questions left unanswered in the books. Like the mystery of Harry's inheritance from his parents, the story of Snape's hatred etc. Hope am making sense!!! Any ideas??? "tabs" --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hmtomcat at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 17 00:18:01 2003 From: hmtomcat at sbcglobal.net (TJ Mallon) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:18:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: UK vs US Harry Potter References: Message-ID: <023e01c36455$0565eef0$da5cfea9@mallonthome> No: HPFGUIDX 77594 I'm new to this list, but had to throw my two cents in on this.... I recently obtained the UK versions of all five books and was reading PoA (still my favorite HP book) and a line jumped out at me during the scene in the Shrieking Shack that I didn't remember ever reading before.... >From the UK version (p. 272, 'The Servent of Lord Voldemort') - 'Er - Mr Black - Sirius?' said Hermione timidly. Black jumped at being addressed like this and stared at Hermione as though being spoke to politely was something he'd long forgotten. >From the US version (p. 370) - "Er - Mr. Black - Sirius?" said Hermione. Black jumped at being addressed like this and stared at Hermione as though he had never seen anything quite like her. So what is the point exactly of the changes made? Although I figured out the tone Hermione was speaking in through the pauses in her speech and can do without the 'timidly' in the sentence, what was the point of changing the next paragraph? I like the UK version of that line better as it brings home the point that Hermione is the first person to speak respectfully to Sirius in twelve years (it probably means as much to Sirius for her to address him like this as for Remus to speak kindly to him as Remus has figured out the real story and was his friend going way back - all Hermione knew about him until this point was that he was the only person ever to escape Azkaban, yet she's being respectful). Now, I can see the point of changing words like 'boot' and substituting 'trunk' (unless you've been in the UK for a significant length of time, the average American is not going to understand why people would put their luggage in the boot of the car, although if you think about it in context, it should make sense) and substituting American spellings for British (favorite/favourite, etc. - unfortunately, some people spell badly enough without being confused them even more by British spellings), but in the example I just cited, the US version changes the entire meaning of the sentence unnecessarily. It makes it sound like Sirius has just come across some strange animal he doesn't quite know what to do with. Tracy From pjcousins at btinternet.com Sun Aug 17 00:37:37 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:37:37 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77595 I have checked Lexicon and archives in vain for any clues to who was able to tell WW that LV had lost his powers and indeed his body in the attack on Harry. For the WW to know of the extent of LV's downfall in such detail requires an eyewitness, and the witness must have been from the good side, since a DE would not have let the news out so quickly. My theory also may explain "the lost hours" when Hagrid is thought to be caring for Harry before delivering him to Privet Drive. My witness is Frank Longbottom. The Potters and Longbottoms are linked by the prophesy, they were all in the original Order of the Phoenix, and maybe were neighbours in Godric's Hollow. I think Frank was in or near the Potter house unknown and unseen by LV. LV kills James, then Lily with Harry runs toward Frank but LV kills Lily and attacks Harry without seeing Frank. Frank sees the 'destruction' of LV and the house falling down. He knows James and Lily are dead but Harry is unconcious at least, and trapped by heavy timbers or masonry. He sends high speed owl to DD. DD and Hagrid arrive. Hagrid uses his strength to uncover and release Harry. Frank takes Harry to his home where Alice can care for him while DD decides on Harry's long term future. DD sends Hagrid to Hogwarts, perhaps for the 'Put Outer', where Hagrid also tells Professor McGonagall what has happened and the plan to deliver Harry to Privet Drive. Hagrid returns to Longbottoms to collect Harry and meets Sirius and borrows the motorcycle. The rest is canon. accio snitch - game over From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 01:18:33 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 01:18:33 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77596 Here's the prophecy one more painful time: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches...born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have a power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." Kneasy says in post 75035: "1. For successful analysis we must accept that the Prophecy is complete and accurate. Otherwise, forget it - we're reduced to guesswork. 2. Any analysis must fit the existing plot-line as we know it. Past as well as present and hints for the future too. No extra bits of wishful thinking to force it to fill in any gaps. Strict canon only. 3. It must explain Dumbledores' certainty that Harry is indeed the one to fight Voldemort, without any reservations." The assumption upon first reading the prophecy is that it says: "...either (A or B) must die at the hand of the other (one of A and B), for neither (A nor B) can live while the other (one of A and B) survives..." This read makes sense in light of Kneasy's assertions, which i agree with. What has always stuck out to me was that the end of the prophecy sounds like it's referring to three people: "...either A OR B must die at the hand of C, for neither A NOR B can live while C survives..." This could still make sense. Replace the pronouns similarly in Sachmet's idea, post 75158: "...when I first read that I understood it that Harry and Voldemort will die. According to my dictionary either can mean 'each of two'. So I took it they both die." That would be "...either (both A AND B) must die at the hand of (each) other, for neither (A nor B) can live while the other (one of them) survives..." This could still make sense. The first assumption seems too simple and straightforward for most of us to accept, knowing JK. But the body of the same chapter in which we read about the prophecy, we also learn that Dumbledore is very wise, but not infallible. It's entirely possible, therefore, that he's overlooked something. In light of that, the second theory could make sense. It's also entirely possible, knowing Dumbledore as we do, that he's omitted a detail, such as Harry having to die along with Voldemort; and in light of that, the third theory could make sense. hg From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Aug 17 02:07:19 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 02:07:19 -0000 Subject: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77597 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: But the body of the same chapter in which > we read about the prophecy, we also learn that Dumbledore is very > wise, but not infallible. It's entirely possible, therefore, that > he's overlooked something. In light of that, the second theory could > make sense. It's also entirely possible, knowing Dumbledore as we > do, that he's omitted a detail, such as Harry having to die along > with Voldemort; and in light of that, the third theory could make > sense. > I think we have to know whether or not Dumbledore is telling the truth when he starts his explanation by saying to Harry, "I am going to tell you everything." If this is really, absolutely true, then JKR must have given us all the information we need to see how these books will turn out. (I think she's even said this in an interview somewhere.) If he's NOT telling the truth, then we might find out that there was an extra detail left out that will be disclosed later, but I dont see how Rowling can honestly do that. Dumbledore may have disclosed some weaknesses in this book, but he's not a liar; it would be cheating to say in the next book, that "everything" didn't really mean "everything". So the clue has to be in that long explanation. It *might* be in the prophecy, but I've suddenly gotten the strange feeling that it's not. Just because it's SO obscure, and we're all going nuts turning it upside down and inside out to figure out what it means. I've seen enough magic tricks to sense when there's some misdirection going on, even if I don't realize it right away, and I think we're being very forcefully directed toward the prophecy to keep our attention away from the REAL clue. What it is, I haven't figured out yet - I'll have to slog through that chapter again and see if anything hits me. From cymru1ca at yahoo.ca Sun Aug 17 02:16:14 2003 From: cymru1ca at yahoo.ca (Erica) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 02:16:14 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" > > wrote: > > > My point is that there really isn't the "something more" you speak > > > of, IMO. Can I ask you to go back and read messages 52038 and > > > 52039? This is Dicentra's famous "Anatomy of a Rift" essay where > > > she does a spectacular job of dissecting this episode. ... > > > > > > Jo Serenadust > > > > Thanks for pointing out these posts. They are truly excellent. And > > before I'm accused of "me, too", I pull this paragraph out of your > > (well-written) longer post for those who might have skimmed over it > > and missed the reference. > > > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > > > bboy_mn: > > Well yes, Dicentra's Posts titled 'Anatomy of a Rift - Parts 1 & 2' > are a most excellent essay, but I recommend- > > > Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42739 > > Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43801 > > Why, you might ask? Because I wrote them, I reply. > > Contain line by line analysis (Am Ed) of the first time Ron and Harry > speak after Harry's name comes out of the Goblet of Fire. > > There are other Posts on the same subject but I think these two thread > are the most comprehensive analysis by this group of the fight between > Harry and Ron in 'Goblet of Fire'. Opinions weighing strongly on both > sides. > > Direct Links to 'Anatomy of a Rift'- > > Anatomy of a Rift (Part 1 of 2) LONG > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52038 > > Anatomy of a Rift (Part 2 of 2) LONG > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52039 > > Just thought I would pass it along. For the record; I say BETRAYAL. > > bboy_mn When Harry returns from his trial at the MoM, Ron is ecstatic to learn that Harry 'got off', however, what I find interesting is the way that he puts it: 'I knew it!' yelled Ron punching the air. 'You always get away with stuff'. Do you suppose there is anything 'lurking' in the 'You always get away with stuff'? Erica From jmmears at comcast.net Sun Aug 17 03:11:05 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:11:05 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77599 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica" wrote: > When Harry returns from his trial at the MoM, Ron is ecstatic to > learn that Harry 'got off', however, what I find interesting is the > way that he puts it: > > 'I knew it!' yelled Ron punching the air. 'You always get away with > stuff'. Do you suppose there is anything 'lurking' in the 'You > always get away with stuff'? Yeah, I noticed that too and I admit I wondered about it. It reminded me of the conversation in PoA with R & H in Florean Fortescue's ice cream parlor. Harry is telling them about Fudge letting him off the hook for the Aunt Marge blow-up and wondering why he did. Ron responds with, "'Probably 'cause it's you, isn't it?", shrugged Ron, still chuckling.'" He then goes on to speculate about what would happen to him if he did something like that, and concludes that Molly would kill him before the MoM could take any action against him. The thing is, there's no resentment at all in either of these statements on Ron's part. IMO he's quite aware that Harry gets special treatment very often, and we know, as readers that it's true. I think that he would probably resent it if he and Harry got in trouble for the same thing, and his (Ron) punishment were more severe than Harry's. However, the only time I can think of where they are both in trouble for the same thing at the same time is in CoS, and they both get detentions for the Flying Ford Anglia escapade, so Harry doesn't get any special treatment there. Don't forget that Ron helps get Harry off the hook with Snape in PoA, when he backs him up concerning the illegal trip to Hogsmeade. If Ron were secretly nursing resentment towards Harry, he could have easily failed to get back to Snapes office in time, and let Harry twist in the wind, with no risk to himself. Anyway, I think that while Ron is certainly aware that Harry's likely to receive special treatment in the WW because of who he is (hello? TWO anonymous gift brooms in 3 years?), he's also well aware of the downside of being Harry. In other words, there's no evidence of ongoing jealousy/envy/bitterness toward Harry. He's just his very best friend. Jo S. From pjcousins at btinternet.com Sun Aug 17 02:08:57 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 02:08:57 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77600 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > My theory also may explain "the lost hours" when Hagrid is thought to > be caring for Harry before delivering him to Privet Drive. > > My witness is Frank Longbottom. I have snipped from my earlier post number 77595. I forgot to add that Frank must have been the witness because he, and his wife, suffered the brutal torture from the DEs in their attempts to learn the whereabouts of LV from Frank. From veritabatim at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 02:32:23 2003 From: veritabatim at yahoo.com (Veritabatim) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: <1061054402.3852.77077.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030817023223.78227.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77601 This thread reminded me of a series of postings I read about a week before OOP came out that questioned whether Voldemort was a lich. Paul Prideaux started the fun in post 60060. I suggest going back and reading the post, but the two vital pieces of information pertinent to the discussion at hand are this: Pryd. X writes: For those who don't know, a Lich is a powerful wizard has used dark magic to gain a form of immortality. This seems to agree with what DD says to Harry in CoS when discussing Riddle's journey after leaving school. Pryd. X quotes: "Few liches call themselves by their old names when the years have drained the last vestiges of their humanity from them. Instead, they often adopt pseudonyms like 'the Black Hand' or 'the Forgotten King.' "Learning the true name of a lich is rumored to confer power over the creature." Back to me, Veritabatim: Assuming, then, that Dumbledore has this knowledge of what Voldemort could possibly be, it would only make sense that he would call him "Tom" during their showdown in the Ministry of Magic. In battle, Dumbledore could draw some power over Lord Thingy by calling him Tom Riddle. While reading the scene the first time, I thought, "Bingo! Lich!" as soon as Dumbledore started with all the Tom business. This lich theory would perhaps rectify his insisting in PS/SS that the Wizarding World should call him by his name -- Voldemort. For after all, Voldemort *is* his new identity. If this theory is true, though, the one thing that doesn't fit is this: If one can gain power over a lich by confronting the, uh, being with the true name, wouldn't Dumbledore tell everyone in the Order -- heck, everyone he met -- to call Voldemort Tom Riddle? It gets me thinking that there's a reason for Dumbledore to keep Voldemort's previous identity to himself. But I don't feel like thinking about that right now. The conspiracy theorists can run amok. Veritabatim, who has been meaning to bring up this lich post for awhile but never got around to it until now --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 03:13:01 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:13:01 -0000 Subject: Who sets the passwords? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77602 > > > Wanda: > > > I was just wondering, who makes up the passwords for the > Gryffindor > > > students? I assumed it was McGonagall, and she probably sets a > new > > > one every week. > > > Margaret replied: > > > > I always assumed that the prefects made up the passwords, it would > > account for them always knowing what they were and when they were > > changed, as well as the fact that McGonagall is rarely seen near > > Gryffindor tower (I think it's mentioned in CoS that when she came > to > > tell them Ginny had been taken into the chamber it was the first > time > > arry had ever seen her there). > > > Now linlou: > > I was under the impression that the passwords are made up by > the portraits that guard the common room entrances. In POA, Neville > wrote them down in the first place because Sir Cadogen kept changing > them and he couldn't keep up. However, do we know one way or the > other if all the common room entrances are guarded by portraits? I > know in the COS movie Slytherin's was not, but does the book > describe it at all?( Sorry, not sure where my copy is at the moment.) > If this is the case it may give us a further clue as to the extent > of the abilities of the portraits. Margaret, again: The Slytherin common room is located near the dungeons (how appropriate), and has a door that appears to be part of the stone wall. There is no portrait, you tap the wall with your wand and say the password. It's in CoS when Ron and Harry take the polyjuice potion to look like Crabbe and Goyle. ~Margaret Apologies if this has been answered by the time this post appears on list, I'm still on moderated status. From haloeight042202 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 03:13:40 2003 From: haloeight042202 at yahoo.com (haloeight042202) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:13:40 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77603 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > I have checked Lexicon and archives in vain for any clues to who was > able to tell WW that LV had lost his powers and indeed his body in > the attack on Harry. > > For the WW to know of the extent of LV's downfall in such detail > requires an eyewitness, and the witness must have been from the good > side, since a DE would not have let the news out so quickly. > > My theory also may explain "the lost hours" when Hagrid is thought to > be caring for Harry before delivering him to Privet Drive. > > My witness is Frank Longbottom. The Potters and Longbottoms are > linked by the prophesy, they were all in the original Order of the > Phoenix, and maybe were neighbours in Godric's Hollow. > > I think Frank was in or near the Potter house unknown and unseen by > LV. LV kills James, then Lily with Harry runs toward Frank but LV > kills Lily and attacks Harry without seeing Frank. > > Frank sees the 'destruction' of LV and the house falling down. He > knows James and Lily are dead but Harry is unconcious at least, and > trapped by heavy timbers or masonry. He sends high speed owl to DD. > DD and Hagrid arrive. Hagrid uses his strength to uncover and release > Harry. Frank takes Harry to his home where Alice can care for him > while DD decides on Harry's long term future. DD sends Hagrid to > Hogwarts, perhaps for the 'Put Outer', where Hagrid also tells > Professor McGonagall what has happened and the plan to deliver Harry > to Privet Drive. Hagrid returns to Longbottoms to collect Harry and > meets Sirius and borrows the motorcycle. The rest is canon. > > accio snitch - game over That would make sense because Frank and Alice Longbottom were tourtured for the whereabouts of LV shortly after LV "died" (i use the word loosely). Somebody must have seen Frank alert Dumbledore, maybe Peter, or another deatheater nearby. In the movie, we don't see James die, only Lily. This sequence was written especially for the movie by Jk herself. Maybe the voice Harry hears in PoA is Frank telling lily to run. James might have already been dead, and Frank attacked LV, but LV just knocked Frank out or something. I like the way you think. I believe this is the first original thought I have read. From siskiou at earthlink.net Sun Aug 17 03:36:10 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 20:36:10 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3625886058.20030816203610@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77604 Hi, Saturday, August 16, 2003, 7:16:14 PM, Erica wrote: > Do you suppose there is anything 'lurking' in the 'You > always get away with stuff'? Maybe the truth? ;) -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 03:36:03 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 19:36:03 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030816192639.00a67000@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 77605 At 12:16 AM 8/17/2003 +0000, melclaros wrote: >My question is this, once the Secret Keeper imparts his information >to you, are you free to pass it on? I'd say not. It was made pretty >darn clear that ONLY the Secret Keeper would be able to impart said >secret. >So, following that path, what happens if you try? (Say Mundungus is >expecting a delivery of dented cauldrons and wants to give #12 to >UPS.) Will the person you are speaking to just hear jibberish? As Flitwick explains in PoA Ch10 (pg 205US): "...As long as the SECRET-KEEPER refuses to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room window!" So it would appear that the person given the address by the non-secret-keeper would simple see the houses on either side and not find #12. What I never understood was why James wasn't Lily's secret keeper and Lily wasn't James' secret keeper...other than the fact that it would have made the series non-existant....OK, I guess that is why they didn't do it that way...but still, to use a wimp like PP (who would sell his mother for a nickle and never showed signs of bravery) instead of DD or SB is mind boggling. From ratalman at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 03:53:39 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:53:39 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: <20030817023223.78227.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77606 W?? me, Veritabatim: > > Assuming, then, that Dumbledore has this knowledge of what Voldemort could possibly be, it would only make sense that he would call him "Tom" during their showdown in the Ministry of Magic. In battle, Dumbledore could draw some power over Lord Thingy by calling him Tom Riddle. While reading the scene the first time, I thought, "Bingo! Lich!" as soon as Dumbledore started with all the Tom business. This lich theory would perhaps rectify his insisting in PS/SS that the Wizarding World should call him by his name -- Voldemort. For after all, Voldemort *is* his new identity. > > If this theory is true, though, the one thing that doesn't fit is this: If one can gain power over a lich by confronting the, uh, being with the true name, wouldn't Dumbledore tell everyone in the Order -- heck, everyone he met -- to call Voldemort Tom Riddle? It gets me thinking that there's a reason for Dumbledore to keep Voldemort's previous identity to himself. But I don't feel like thinking about that right now. The conspiracy theorists can run amok. > > Veritabatim, who has been meaning to bring up this lich post for awhile but never got around to it until now Interesting idea, but a problem occurs to me. Lucius Malfoy must know of LV's previous identity, as he had had in his possession T.M. Riddle's diary, and undoubtedly knew that Riddle was the younger version of LV. Perhaps others of the DEs don't have this same information; it can be argued that Bellatrix doesn't know LV's "heritage", so to speak, as shown by her reaction to Harry telling her that LV was not a pureblood in the battle scene in OoP. Of course, she could well have had the same hostile reaction to anything Harry might have said, as that's her game, to protect LV. Certainly Wormtail knows that Riddle = LV, as he was in Riddle Sr.'s house, and took part in "robbing" his grave in GoF. Robyn From eberte at vaeye.com Sun Aug 17 03:58:31 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:58:31 -0000 Subject: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77607 It strikes me that we (the readers of the series) most likely have knowledge that the characters in the book *do not* seem to have. *We* know that the story is going to end in two more years, and, thus, that the final showdown between Harry and Lord V. is going to happen during that time frame. (I really doubt that JKR will end the series with the trio taking their N.E.W.T.S. and throwing their graduation caps in the air--if that is even done in the U.K.--and then toss in an epilogue stating that Harry subsequently defeated Lord V. and lived happily ever after.) That said, Harry seems very ill-prepared. No one seems very interested in preparing Harry for the final showdown. Three of his 5 DADA teachers have been incompetent (and a fourth was an insane DE...) If the prophecy is true, the fate of the whole WW depends on Harry defeating Voldemort. If anyone needs to learn defense against the dark arts, it is Harry. Yet DD remains strangely unconcerned about Harry's preparation. He sets Snape up as the Occlumency teacher, and everyone falls all over himself telling Harry how important it is that he master Occlumency. Then Snape's ickle- feelings get hurt and he says "Screw the last hope of the wizarding world!" and stops the lessons. I suppose one explanation is that DD realizes that Harry is hopelessly outmatched by LV in terms of his magical skill and thinks that the power that Harry has to defeat Lord V must be something innate (i.e cannot be taught.) Wizarding power seems to be mostly inborn--rather like intelligence (i.e. you are born either to be a squib or a Dumbledore, and no amount of academic instruction will make you into a DD if you are a squib.) Still....it seems to me that Harry could use a bit more quality teaching. And they better get cracking... Elle (who believes--like Hermione--that Harry needs to stop fiddling as Rome burns and study longer and harder) From eberte at vaeye.com Sun Aug 17 04:17:32 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 04:17:32 -0000 Subject: Voldemort vs. Riddle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77608 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Veritabatim wrote: > > > > > If one can gain power over a lich by confronting the, uh, being > with the true name, wouldn't Dumbledore tell everyone in the > Order -- heck, everyone he met -- to call Voldemort Tom Riddle? > It gets me thinking that there's a reason for Dumbledore to keep > Voldemort's previous identity to himself. > > Robyn replied: > Interesting idea, but a problem occurs to me. Lucius Malfoy > must know of LV's previous identity, as he had had in his > possession T.M. Riddle's diary, and undoubtedly knew that > Riddle was the younger version of LV. Perhaps others of the > DEs don't have this same information; it can be argued that > Bellatrix doesn't know LV's "heritage", so to speak, as shown by > her reaction to Harry telling her that LV was not a pureblood in > the battle scene in OoP. Of course, she could well have had the > same hostile reaction to anything Harry might have said, as > that's her game, to protect LV. Certainly Wormtail knows that > Riddle = LV, as he was in Riddle Sr.'s house, and took part in > "robbing" his grave in GoF. > Now Me: Yes but Lucius Malfoy, Bellatrix and Wormtail are all baddies, so it doesn't matter whether or not they know the name. More problematic is why DD would not tell others in the order (perhaps he did) and why Tom Riddle *himself* tells Harry that he is Lord Voldemort. (You could argue that the last instance was just garden-variety ill- advised gloating of an evil overlord before he attempted to kill his seemingly-cornered victim.) There is a similar theme in the Susan Cooper "The Dark is Rising" series in that the representatives of the "Dark" can be vanquished by calling them by their true names. Elle From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Aug 17 06:12:32 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:12:32 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77609 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "haloeight042202" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" > wrote: > > I have checked Lexicon and archives in vain for any clues to who > was > > able to tell WW that LV had lost his powers and indeed his body in > > the attack on Harry. > > > > For the WW to know of the extent of LV's downfall in such detail > > requires an eyewitness, and the witness must have been from the > good > > side, since a DE would not have let the news out so quickly. > > > > My theory also may explain "the lost hours" when Hagrid is thought > to > > be caring for Harry before delivering him to Privet Drive. > > > > My witness is Frank Longbottom. The Potters and Longbottoms are > > linked by the prophesy, they were all in the original Order of the > > Phoenix, and maybe were neighbours in Godric's Hollow. > > > > I think Frank was in or near the Potter house unknown and unseen by > > LV. LV kills James, then Lily with Harry runs toward Frank but LV > > kills Lily and attacks Harry without seeing Frank. > > > > Frank sees the 'destruction' of LV and the house falling down. He > > knows James and Lily are dead but Harry is unconcious at least, and > > trapped by heavy timbers or masonry. He sends high speed owl to DD. > > DD and Hagrid arrive. Hagrid uses his strength to uncover and > release > > Harry. Frank takes Harry to his home where Alice can care for him > > while DD decides on Harry's long term future. DD sends Hagrid to > > Hogwarts, perhaps for the 'Put Outer', where Hagrid also tells > > Professor McGonagall what has happened and the plan to deliver > Harry > > to Privet Drive. Hagrid returns to Longbottoms to collect Harry and > > meets Sirius and borrows the motorcycle. The rest is canon. > > > > accio snitch - game over > > > That would make sense because Frank and Alice Longbottom were > tourtured for the whereabouts of LV shortly after LV "died" (i use > the word loosely). Somebody must have seen Frank alert Dumbledore, > maybe Peter, or another deatheater nearby. In the movie, we don't see > James die, only Lily. This sequence was written especially for the > movie by Jk herself. Maybe the voice Harry hears in PoA is Frank > telling lily to run. James might have already been dead, and Frank > attacked LV, but LV just knocked Frank out or something. I like the > way you think. I believe this is the first original thought I have > read. Well, a problem with this theory is that both Hagrid and Sirius say that they met at the Potters' house. Hagrid tells us that he rescued Harry out of the ruins of the Potters' house and then Sirius turns up with his motorcycle. (PoA, US edition, pg. 206.) And, at this point, the discussion takes place as to whether Harry should be handed over to his godfather or if Hagrid's instructions from Dumbledore should take precedence. There is absolutely no canon to indicate that this encounter takes place anywhere other than at the Potters'. Marianne From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 04:50:47 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 04:50:47 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory: Why I think Snape's not the vampire In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77610 Silmariel: > > I don't happen to think Snape is a vampire/dhampire, btw, but a big > red > > herring covering a real one. > > Margaret (me): I couldn't track up thread to anywhere this made more sense to post, so I'm putting it here because I agree with silmariel, and that basic belief is what prompted this. It was originally an email to someone, but I've fleshed it out a bit more. ***************** I am a recent convert from the "Snape's not a nice guy, but he's on DD side" camp to the "Snape's misunderstood, he's a good guy" camp. I realize that neither of these are mutually exclusive with the Vampire!Snape theory, in fact most people who believe he's a vampire think he's a good vampire, but I'm not (at the moment) very conviced Snape is a vampire/dhampire. I know it's possible, but it doesn't seem, in my mind, very probable. I'm sure someone at some point will be a vampire (whether it's someone we already know or a new character altogether) hopefully on the side of good, but I also think it's likely the JKR might make the vampire a bad guy. I know, I know, one of the big theories on this board is that through the werewolves and the house elves and the giants JKR is trying to make the point that wizards see themselves as better than other magical beings, and that's wrong. But sometimes dark creatures/beings really are dark. (Plus, it would be very like JKR to spend all this time convincing us creatures that were previously thought evil are good, and them WHAM! evil vampire.) Look at the dementors, almost certainly part vampire, no one's saying that they're misunderstood victims of prejudice, mistreated by the wizards that created them. Because they really are dangerous, and enjoy inflicting pain (emotional pain at least) on others. They are a dark creature that most defintely deserves the title. Werewolves really are dangerous once a month, and while it's incredibly unfair that they should be prevented from getting jobs and living as a normal human/wizard the other 27 days of the month, they should be controlled in some way the other 3 (the wolfsbane potion for instance). I'm a huge Lupin fan, so don't think this means I'm anti-werewolf. But when he forgets to take his potion, he turns into a viscious killer without a conscience. I realize that everything I just said goes totally against the very liberal politics I was raised to (and do) believe in in the real world, but reading over, I still agree with it. ~Margaret From michelle_malfoy at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 04:27:49 2003 From: michelle_malfoy at hotmail.com (Michelle Malfoy) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:27:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pondering that Secret Keeper thing Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77611 Melpomene: >I just don't "get" this Secret Keeper arrangement and am wondering if >anyone else has given this much thought. Yes, I understand the *idea* >behind it and that was illustrated nicely when Harry read the address >of 12 Grimmaud Place off DD's parchement and the place "appeared" to >him. >My question is this, once the Secret Keeper imparts his information >to you, are you free to pass it on? I'd say not. It was made pretty >darn clear that ONLY the Secret Keeper would be able to impart said >secret. >So, following that path, what happens if you try? (Say Mundungus is >expecting a delivery of dented cauldrons and wants to give #12 to >UPS.) Will the person you are speaking to just hear jibberish? See >you moving your mouth but nothing coming out? (Flash on that annoying >Verizon guy "can you hear me NOW?"). What if you tried to write it >down and hand it to someone. Would the paper be blank or would you >unkowingly hand the person you're trying to tell a tic-tac-toe >diagram? >Do you suddenly "forget" either what you were about to say or the >whole secret? >Or maybe you'd just be struck dead on the spot. Any speculation? My interpretation of this is that once the secret keeper gave you the information you could see it but even if you were told #12 Grimwald (sp?) you would see nothing. I took this from PoA when Professor Flitwick states, and I quote: "An immensely complex spell,' he said squeakily, 'involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret_Keeper refused to speak, You-Know-Who could search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting-room window!" -pg.152, bottom of the page. So the information has to come directly from the Secret-Keeper otherwise nobody could find what the Secret-Keeper was hiding. IMO, of course, but it is interesting the point you raise. I just think that because it didn't come from the Secret-Keeper it wouldn't matter. No matter how hard the tried to find #12 Grimwald (sp?) it would be as if it didn't exsist. Hope that helps. Michelle_Malfoy _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 06:38:58 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:38:58 -0000 Subject: The Goblins (was:Re: is there a reason?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ajlboston" wrote: > I want to know what's going on with Fudge and the Goblins, since it > seems clear that something will happen in the upcoming books after > the repeated mention of Goblin rebellions, even Three Broomsticks as > one of the sites, the Goblin's displeasure with what the wizards have > done and with bagman, the unlikely fountain, and then all the > Quibbler stuff about Fudge and his angering/persecuting goblins. > Similarly, Lichtenstein and what the Giants have amounted to (being > crowded unsafely due to wizarding harrassment) all seem to serve as > background for whatever happens in the All Beings Cataclysmic War > coming up. (But what will the centaurs do? And will the wizards > stop being so snobbish so that things are better in the future?) > > Perhaps Fudge has so alienated the goblins that DE's can entice > them, or something... > > A.J. I found some more: In the beginning of ch. 15 (The Hogwarts High Inquisitor), there is an article from the Daily Prophet headlined "Ministry Seeks Educational Reform; Delores Umbridge Appointed First-Ever 'High Inquisitor." I quote the final two paragraphs: "Wizengamot elders Griselda Marchbanks and Tiberius Ogden have resigned in protest at the introduction of the post of Inquisitor to Hogwarts. "'Hogwarts is a school, not an outpost of Cornelius Fudge's office,' said Madam Marchbanks. 'This is a further disgusting attempt to discredit Albus Dumbledore.' (For a full account of Madam Marchbanks' alleged links to subversive goblin groups, turn to page 17)." If Madam Marchbanks is linked to goblin groups that the Ministry and the Daily Prophet think are "subversive," then I'll bet she has something to do with wanting to have the goblins treated with more respect. I also look forward to seeing those goblin groups coming into the story. We actually meet Madam Marchbanks as "Professor Marchbanks" in ch. 31 (O.W.L.S.). She is one of the examiners. Draco says that she is the head of the Wizarding Examinations Authority and that his father had dinner with her and "fixed" his O.W.L.S; Neville doesn't think that last part can be true as she's a friend of his Gran's and hadn't mentioned the Malfoys. I'm running out of time, but I note that M. Marchbanks oversaw Harry's practical Potions O.W.L. I think we will be seeing her and her involvement with goblins again. BTW, Tiberius Ogden, mentioned in the Daily Prophet article also, is another of the O.W.L. examiners. Annemehr who also wonders if there isn't a grain of truth in every Quibbler article (perhaps they'll have to put a Crumple-Horned Snorkack into the new MoM statue if they ever make one) From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 06:46:23 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:46:23 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77613 Wanda wrote: > I'm interested in the line, "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his > equal..." In this case, Dumbledore could be wrong, as was > the person who relabelled the prophecy in the MoM. Voldemort might > have "marked" the wrong person, and the transfer of powers will not > be decisive in defeating him. > > Next point, in what way is Harry Voldemort's "equal"? He has > nowhere near as much power; even though he's outwitted him 4 times, > he himself says that it had as much to do with luck and help as > anything. Me: Okay, so what you have to consider is this- Voldemort has been told that a baby has the power to vanquish him. He doesn't have to accept it. He could just say that Trelawney is a fraud or that the prophecy is not true, or not specific enough to actually predict his own demise... BUT he goes out there and believes it. Voldemort believes that Harry has the power to defeat him. He is scared of him. He considers Harry to be a real threat. This is why he went out and tried to kill him- nearly causing his own destruction. This is why he's obsessed with laying hands on him in GoF and finding out the prophecy in OoP. The point I'm trying to make here is that Voldemort has marked Harry as equal just by considering him a threat. Voldemort considers Harry to be his equal- this is why he went out and tried to kill him. If Voldemort didn't consider Harry to be his equal then he wouldn't have bothered to try and destroy him. So, the very fact that Voldemort believes that Harry is his equal is 'marking as equal.' Harry mightn't necessarily be Voldemort's equal in power (Harry definitely doesn't think he is)- BUT Voldemort thinks that he is. This is the whole crux of the prohpecy- it *could* have been either Harry or Neville, but at the second when Voldemort chose Harry as thought- 'Harry Potter is the one of whom this prophecy speaks. He has the power to defeat me. I must defeat him.' he is 'marking him as equal.' He is saying that Harry is a threat. And in doing so he passes on his own powers to him. So, you see, before Harry was attacked he wasn't Voldemort's equal at all. It is Voldemort's attack on him that transfers the powers, links Voldemort and Harry together via the scar and makes Harry become more powerful than he would have been. Think about the people who Voldemort fears... Dumbledore... and Harry Potter. It's a very short list. He's afraid of them because he considers them to has more power than he does, or be equal to him in power. No matter how much power Harry actually has, the very fact that Voldemort thinks he has plenty is an advantage than no-one else (bar Dumbledore) in the wizarding world has. Also to note- Voldemort has in no way marked Neville as equal. The very fact that Voldemort has not bothered Neville at all proves that he thinks that Neville poses no threat to him whatsoever. The prophecy hangs together on this line "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal..." Voldemort *can't* have marked the wrong person because it was always his choice. The was no right or wrong person until Voldemort chose who they would be. He chose between Harry and Neville. And he chose Harry. He *marked* Harry by trying to kill him. His choice of Harry sealed his fate- by considering Harry to be a threat to him would mean accepting that he is the one in the prophecy. By trying to kill him he passed on his powers to Harry. By giving these powers to Harry he gave Harry the powers to kill him. They do have a connecting scar after all. Even if you don't want to believe that the power that Voldemort tranferred to Harry (eg Parseltongue) will help Harry defeat him, the whole scar thing is harder to explain away. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 07:07:23 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 07:07:23 -0000 Subject: Compromise: WAS Factual Errors In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77614 "Geoff Bannister" wrote: "scoutmom21113" wrote: I have to back up Geoff on this one. I just did a search for messages on Cho and came up with the following subjects (partial list): Fudge Naive or DE? (was "is there a reason?") Re: Does Snape Think Of Draco As The Son He Never Had? What do Muggles Know? (Was: Re: Christmas Gifts from Dursleys) Re: Metamorphmagus!Harry? Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? Re: Hagrid and thestrals Chocolate Frog Cards (was: UK vs US Harry Potter) Re: Dumbledore's Family? If Cho's name is even mentioned in most of these messages, I missed it. So if I ask a question about Cho that was answered two weeks ago will I get jumped on? In the interest of sanity and harmony, I propose a little compromise. Posters will make every *reasonable* attempt to see if the information is already there. And readers will just skip the messages that have been answered to their satisfaction. Afterall, we still have several years to go before book 6. Most of what we are saying now will be discussed many many times again before then. ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; What bothers me most, mainly because getting "false info" does not bother me, I pretty much know what's in the books, is the fact that some people either do not know how to or plainly REFUSE to cut out all the extra stuff from the message before sending it to the list. For example: (and I copied this as-is, EXACTLY off message 77440)... From: "Talisman" Date: Fri Aug 15, 2003 5:39 pm Subject: Re: Factual Errors (was Voldemort's choice of Harry) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" > > wrote: > > > > > But the Lestranges and Crouch Jr didn't torture the Longbottoms > > until > > > after Voldemort tried to kill Harry and lost all his powers.. > > > > > > KathyK > > > > Me (Redmont): > > > > Too right. Am I the only one who's sick of telling people things > > like this? I think the admins should start making a list of facts > > people keep screwing up and list them in the database somewhere. > > For instance: > > > (snip) > > James Redmont, who feels that getting the facts straight will allow > > these discussions to be more enjoyable! > > CW replies: > > Am I the only one who thinks you are over-reacting by posting such an > unpleasant message ? Ok, I forgot the order of something when I was > tired late at night, and I've thanked Kathy for pointing out my > mistake. For goodness sake, its a free discussion board about a > series of children's books. Talisman, who, like Snape, does not have unlimited leisure time, points out: 1) JKR has said about 100 times, and it has been repeated on this list about 1000 times, that she is not writing her HP series for children. Opps again, CW. 2)Discussions, free or otherwise, are always more enjoyable and productive if people actually know what they are talking about. 3)It's a sorry state of affairs if preferring actual canon makes one an elitist. Talisman, who knows how to check her text.>>>> If Talisman would have cleaned up this post, most of it would have been much easier to read, and it would only have taken about half the amount of space. So, to me, a mistake is better than all the clutter, but, this is just MHO though. Fred Waldrop Who hopes Talisman does not think I am picking on her personally, but was reading her meaasge while answering another. And also hopes that if she gets mad at him, she will please forgive him. From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 06:36:26 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:36:26 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? (was: Defending Ron (was Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77615 JO serenadust wrote: > AAm wrote (quoting me): > > Jo Serenadust wrote : Well, now *I'm* offended! > Just to clarify, I was just kidding when I wrote that. I'm not > *that* touchy, honest :--D. If that may reassure you, same thing for me (^_^). > You left out my when you snipped. Oops ! That was not intended. > Since you are apparently working from a translated > copy of GoF, it's hard to know exactly how the nuances come across, > so I can see how you may have a different impression of this > passage. Yes, you're right. I definitely need to buy more original versions. > AAm (I) continued: > > OK, I have to admit that I may amplify things a little bit too > much, but Ron does not only harbour resentment against Harry simply > on account on what he considers being Harry's refusal to tell him > what really happened Definitely not. There is > something more, and that "something more" is described in the book. > Jo replied : > My point is that there really isn't the "something more" you speak > of, IMO. Can I ask you to go back and read messages 52038 and > 52039? This is Dicentra's famous "Anatomy of a Rift" essay where > she does a spectacular job of dissecting this episode. Please > don't be put off by the length, as it's very tightly and clearly > written, and IMO covers these points better than anyone else has, > before or since. It's truly a classic. (End of fangirly gushing > about Dicey's posts) Your were kind enough to reread the end of the 17th chapter of GoF so I'll go and read these messages. Thus said, I cannot comment at depth on the "something more" point right now. Jo serenadust quoted that part of my former message : > Same thing with OoP : after his triumph as a Quidditch goal-keeper > he keeps talking about it again and again until the next day so that > he isn't even aware of Harry and Hermione's unforgettable trip with > Hagrid into the forbidden forest. Jo serenadust replied : > I think he was entitled to spend a little time > enjoying his own. I was surprised at how quickly he dropped any > feelings of resentment and disappointment at their having missed > it, once they explained why. I agree, I had the same impression but I think that H and H (and later on, Ron) were really really struck to hear not only that Hagrid had brought back a (tiny ? ) Giant with him from his mission for the Order but also that he was also asking them, *including Ron*, to take care of him. Maybe when you hear that a friend of yours who happens to be a half-giant asks you to take care of his half-brother (actually, a real giant) you may tend to forget everything including your quidditch life-time best performace :) . And when I wrote that he wasn't even aware of what had happened, what I meant was this : he couldn't even stop speaking to let the two of them set forth the *deal* with Hagrid. > > Me: > > > He doesn't even really refuse to speak to him. > AAm: > > Hey, wait a minute. You really like Ron, don't you ? > Me: > Er...does it really show? ;-) Hmmm...... I'd say just a lil' bit... Jo serenadust said: > > > As for the assumption that Hermione is destined to be MoM, I > > > sincerely doubt that is likely unless the office is > > > automatically awarded to the witch or wizard with the most > > > NEWTS. Her people skills and political instincts are not > > > nearly as well developed as her intellect. I missed the last bit of this passage so it's now time to respond. Hermione's political skills are well developped. One example taken in OoP. Who perfectly understands Umbridge's new teaching politics for Hogwarts ? Ron ? Harry ? Nope. The one... The only... Hermione !! See, for example, what professor McGanagall says to Harry (end of chapter twelve): ""Didn't you listen to DU's speech at the start-of-term feast ?" "Yes" said Harry . 'Yeah... she said... progress will be prohibited or... well, it means that... the MOM is trying to interfere at Hogwarts." Professor McGonagall eyed him closely for a moment, then sniffed, walked around her desk and held open the door for him. "Well I'm glad you listen to Hermione Granger at any rate", she said, pointing him out of her office." > > > Frankly, I can see Ron being MoM more easily than I can see Hermione in that > > > position, but it's purely speculative. (I missed this one too) Ron (?_?) ?! No comment ;-) . > AAm (I) responded: > > Now, *I* am offended. Hermione sometimes "offends" people (as we > > all happen to do ;-) ) but you cannot say that her "people skills > > are not nearly as well developped as her intellect". Not only is > > she always telling Harry and Ron why other people do behave the > > way they do, but she also explains to the two of them how these > > people, and how they - R and H - are feeling. Of course, she > > sometimes acts like a bull in a china shop but she's becoming > > more and more full of empathy for everyone (I won't work out that > > precise point here but it would be something worth discussing at > > length IMO : Who is Hermione beyond the caricature ? Another > > topic coming soon ?). > Now me (Jo serenadust): > I really didn't mean to offend you, You didn't. > but I do stand by my statement about Hermione's "people skills" vs > intellect. Yes, she does a good (possibly "too good") > job of explaining other people's behavior and > feelings, which makes her own poor people-handling all the more > amusing. I'd follow you and even say sometimes her job is "probably" too good. > Do you really think she "empathises" with the house-elves, > or the centaurs? Frankly ? Yes I do. Sure she's still got to make a lot of progress, and she's sometimes a little bit tactless but at the same time I do believe her efforts are genuine (also remember that she had a hard time dealing with the centaurs in the FF parly because of the circumstances !). Not so many people in the WW are spending energy trying to understand the centaurs or the house-elves > I really hoped to see her develop more empathy for the feelings of > others in OOP, but I didn't see any progress in this area. Really. I must say that I did (and I read the UK version of OoP ;-D ). > I do look forward to your "Hermione beyond the caricature" post. I > think there's lots to explore there. Thanks ! I'll have to work this out but it could take me some time because I have to finish an academic job first (something that shouln't prevent other people from posting on that particular subject : every idea and suggestion is welcome). See you. AAm (Hermione for Gov'). From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 06:59:16 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:59:16 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77616 JO serenadust wrote : > The thing is, there's no resentment at all in either of these > statements on Ron's part. That's also my opinion but this could become the ground for some resentment and/or bitterness if things go wrong between them in the future (your present state of mind can easily transform your memory of the past and thus lead you to a whole new attitude - not very well written, isn't it ?). > IMO he's quite aware that Harry gets special treatment very often, > and we know, as readers that it's true. I think that he would > probably resent it if he and Harry got in trouble for the same > thing, and his (Ron) punishment were more severe than Harry's. > However, the only time I can think of where they are both in > trouble for the same thing at the same time is in CoS, and they > both get detentions for the Flying Ford Anglia escapade, so Harry > doesn't get any special treatment there. Well... they don't get exactly the same treatment ! Of course, Harry never asked for spending his time in detention with Lockhard but in the end, that's what happened. However annoying (I personnally find him very funny) Lockhard may be, it is still a slightly less painful punishment than Ron's one. AAm. From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 17 07:44:39 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 07:44:39 -0000 Subject: The gleam & protection (was:Re: what is "the heart of it all"?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" wrote: > As DD states to Harry, he knew that his most complex and powerful > protective spells and charms were unlikely to be invincible if LV > ever returned to full power. So DD gave Harry the blood (sacrifice) > protection because LV would underestimate it (OOtP UK ed., pg 736). A > bit later DD states that while Harry is with his relatives at Privet > Drive and he can still call it home, LV cannot harm him there. > This last statement of DD is what I believe caused the gleam in his > eyes in GOF I doubt it. These two conversations are not only 1 whole year apart but there is no mention of the Dursleys in that entire GOF chapter. I think the significance of Dumbledore's statement that "While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort" (which he then rephrases and repeats again) - lies in the first word "While". To me this statement indicates that there will come a time - probably the beginning of book 7 - where Harry will no longer be able to call Privet Drive 4 his home. Whether it will be because his source of protection (Petunia - and perhaps Dudley) will be killed, or because they will disown him for fear for their own safety, it is not clear. But I am sure that event will happen. A point to note is that in all the books, Harry never leaves the Dursleys before a complete month has passed. His birthday occurs approximately at the 4-week mark, but always at least 3-4 days must pass before he can leave. My guess is that when he turns 17 and can do magic legally would be the breaking point with the Dursleys - he'll either have to leave their home before the complete month has passed, or his source of protection (Petunia) will abandon him or die. As I see the progression of events in the series, Harry's protections are gradually being stripped - the blood protection is mostly nulified by Voldemort using his blood to return. The wand protection is no more now, since Voldemort is aware of it so will not get into such a situation again. The person most dedicated to him was killed in OoP. Eventually it's pretty much a given that Dumbledore will also die. So at some point, Harry will have to lose the protection of Privet Drive as well. How this will come about - whether by death or abandonment is the question, but for him to face Voldemort "as an equal", he cannot have these props at the final encounter. salit From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 17 08:16:25 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:16:25 -0000 Subject: Ron's academic achivements in book 5 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77618 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" wrote: > and when Hermione > corrects his homework, she says, thats fine Harry, I just had to > correct mice to ice. Ron on the other hand had Hermione write an > entire conclution for him. And that paper (if I'm not mistatken and I > very well could be) was the paper that he got a failing grade on from > Snape. And Ron got a passing. No, that paper was for his astronomy class, and we are never told what grade he or Ron received. The potion essay that Harry received a failed grade on was the one he did while he was in detention with Umbridge and simply did not have a time to do homework. > But, I do think that > Ron and Harry are very normal about there school work. Yes, I have a 15 year old boy and it drives me nuts how he always forget his homework. His grades suffer a lot, and yet he knows well the subject matter (as indicated by tests). I think this is also the case for Harry - he knows the material a lot better than what his grades show. I am not sure if this is also true for Ron. Ron is certainly bright (or he could not be such a good chess player), but I suspect that Harry is smarter - and will get better OWL results. > I can tell you now I > wouldn't read the books if they were all perfect and did their > homework on time and never got mad of goofed off or well, started > necking in the D.A. room. That's the fun of the books. Yup that's why I loved OoP - because their behaviour was so realistic. What I hate about most children's books is how the hero is never angry or displays negative emotions or behaviours (although a supporting character may). But I read that younger readers had trouble with Harry in OoP for that reason. I guess you need to have been a teen yourself to really understand how he felt and accept it as normal. Salit From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 08:19:56 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:19:56 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030816192639.00a67000@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77619 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth wrote: > At 12:16 AM 8/17/2003 +0000, melclaros wrote: > >My question is this, once the Secret Keeper imparts his information > >to you, are you free to pass it on? I'd say not. It was made pretty > >darn clear that ONLY the Secret Keeper would be able to impart said > >secret. > >So, following that path, what happens if you try? (Say Mundungus is > >expecting a delivery of dented cauldrons and wants to give #12 to > >UPS.) Will the person you are speaking to just hear jibberish? > > As Flitwick explains in PoA Ch10 (pg 205US): > "...As long as the SECRET-KEEPER refuses to speak, You-Know-Who could > search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never > find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room > window!" > So it would appear that the person given the address by the > non-secret-keeper would simple see the houses on either side and not find > #12. What I never understood was why James wasn't Lily's secret keeper and > Lily wasn't James' secret keeper...other than the fact that it would have > made the series non-existant....OK, I guess that is why they didn't do it > that way...but still, to use a wimp like PP (who would sell his mother for > a nickle and never showed signs of bravery) instead of DD or SB is mind > boggling. The question is - is it possible to keep your own secret? Since James & Lily share the same secret maybe they can't keep the secret - maybe that defeats the purpose of the spell somehow. Perhaps having an uninvolved party keeping the secret is the key to what makes the spell work - a trust thing or something. at least thats what i told myself so that it would make sense to me. but perhaps it still doesn't make complete sense - it's 4am, sue me :) -QoE From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 17 08:24:52 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 04:24:52 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rookwood References: Message-ID: <3F3F3BD4.7060100@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77620 eloise_herisson wrote: > Naama: >>What kind of a name is Algernon anyway?! :-\ > > A very respectable, if old-fashioned one. > > Jack Worthing's best friend in _The Importance of being Ernest_is > Algernon Moncrief. Don't be silly; Algy's name was Ernest. > I believe that P.G.Wodehouse had more than one > character named Algernon. What I find interesting is that, as an > Englishwoman (via Wilde and Wodehouse) "Algernon" has inescapably > upper-class connotations, which I do not recall anyone claiming for > the Longbottoms. Neville is rather a posh name, too, isn't it? I can easily see the Longbottoms being part of the wizarding equivalent of the lesser gentry. Regarding the name Algernon, there is also Algernon Sydney, 17th century radical, second son of the Earl of Leicester, tried by Judge Jeffreys for treason, convicted on the basis of his _Discourses Concerning Government_, and executed in 1683. This may actually be on-topic. Sydney's book was written in oppostion to Filmer's _Patriarcha_, a book supporting the idea of absolute monarchy. While there is no suggestion in the HP books that the MoM justifies itself by invoking divine right, it does seem to rule absolutely. Harry's trial, and the trials in the pensieve, bear a certain resemblance to Star Chamber proceedings. If Voldemort wins, he too would surely rule absolutely, and I gather he fancies himself justified by, if not divine right, then diabolical right. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 17 04:36:17 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:36:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Augustus vs. Algernon (was:Neville's Evil Gran?! ) References: Message-ID: <3F3F0641.1050801@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77621 ghinghapuss wrote: > > However, how do we know it was a > mistake in the UK first edition? Surly that came first before the > US 'translation'. That suggests that it was a mistake. Assume the UK publisher gets the manuscript first, but their editors don't catch the mistake. Then the US publisher gets it, and their editors do catch the mistake. By then it might be too late for the UK publisher to fix it, so the mistake appears in print. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 17 04:53:21 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 00:53:21 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Ron's academic achivements in book 5 References: Message-ID: <3F3F0A41.9030504@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77622 vecseytj wrote: > > Harry is a better student than Ron in a > few ways. We never here of Harry's handwriting getting progressively > bigger the further he gets in his homework. That's because his handwriting started out big. > Ron is forever crossing > out things, I don't here of that from Harry.. That just shows that Ron is more conscientious; he is not satisfied with his first draft, but goes back and revises until he is satisfied with it. Harry, on the other hand, just writes down the first thing that pops into his mind, and leaves it at that. > and when Hermione > corrects his homework, she says, thats fine Harry, I just had to > correct mice to ice. That mistake shows that Harry does not really understand what he is writing, but has just memorized the lectures, in this particular instance incorrectly. > Ron on the other hand had Hermione write an > entire conclution for him. The conclusion of a school paper is really just a formality, a few lines or a paragraph hitting the main points. Not a big deal. > And that paper (if I'm not mistatken and I > very well could be) was the paper that he got a failing grade on from > Snape. And Ron got a passing. Harry didn't say anything because he > didin't want to hear *again* how UNFAIR Snape is to him. Harry didn't > deserve a rotten grade from Snape, if he did Hermione would have told > Harry what he had was rubish and re-written it, and had harry copy out > what it should say. No, that paper was for, I think, astronomy. Hence the mice on Ganymede (or whichever moon it was). [I hope it is obvious that, except for the last point and for the point about the mice, I am being partly facetious. There is no evidence at all, one way or the other, for how big Harry's handwriting was. I just want to show that the evidence is open to other interpretations.] From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 17 06:54:54 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 02:54:54 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Charlie Weasley's age References: Message-ID: <3F3F26BE.6070001@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77623 Lee wrote: > > But this doesn't include Ginny either, what about her? What if she > becomes a Prefect? I think Molly was just being Zealous about Ron's > badge that day, but still, its almost like Ginny's presence is almost > an after thought. I don't know, that just sort of stood out to me. O.o I've wondered about that, too. I can see why Molly wouldn't count Fred and George, since it was obvious that they could never be prefects. But Ginny? It seems at least as plausible as Ron. Is Molly's statement supposed to suggest that Ginny is not really part of the family, perhaps that she is adopted? It seems highly unlikely; Bill and Charlie would surely be old enough to know, if she were. And she surely looks like a Weasley. But then why did Molly forget her only daughter? I guess she must have meant "That's everyone in the family so far", but that just doesn't sound right. "That's everyone in the family" sounds so final, as if there are no more to come. Is a puzzlement. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 17 07:20:02 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 03:20:02 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Atom Bomb References: Message-ID: <3F3F2CA2.6050708@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77624 Emily Rose wrote: > > I've actually had a theory about this for some time. Not about atom bombs > per say, but I think it applies. > > My theory is that in the magical world, the laws of physics don't > necessarily apply. My reason for thinking this came around book 3 when > Harry looked at Hermione's Muggle Studies notes and saw pictures of levers > and ramps and muggles lifting heavy objects. These are all basic physics > concepts and when I thought about the Burrow whose architecture defies the > laws of physics and is held up by magic, it seemed to make sense that what > separates wizards and muggles is physics. > > So the fundamental forces, such as gravity (Fg) and electricity (Fe) are > "replaced" by the force of magic. If gravity didn't work for wizards, they'd all go flying off into space. More importantly, if the electromagnetic force didn't work, they'd all be dead. EM is the foundation of chemistry, and chemistry is the foundation of biology. No EM, no molecules (no DNA, no proteins, etc.); and no molecules, no cells and no organisms. Note that Harry, a wizard, grew up in a 100% muggle environment, eating muggle food. Now he eats wizard food, with no ill effects. That means that, biochemically speaking, muggle food and wizard food are indistinguishable, which in turn means that muggle biology and wizard biology are the same. And that means that chemistry is the same, and that means that physics is the same. It is ultimately futile to try to reconcile real physics with the kind of magic in these books (as opposed to kind of magic that sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from). It just can't be done. Magic is physically impossible. (As a side note, it is also biologically impossible; there is no way that it could have evolved.) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Aug 17 08:45:41 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:45:41 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > > Also to note- Voldemort has in no way marked Neville as equal. The > very fact that Voldemort has not bothered Neville at all proves that > he thinks that Neville poses no threat to him whatsoever. > We don't actually know this, that he hasn't bother Neville. In fact, if I were Voldemort and heard, that a baby could be my downfall, I would try to kill both possible candidates, just to get sure. It is IMO absolutely possible, if not likely, that Voldemort wanted to kill both babies, but that he had the opportunity to kill Harry first, because the Longbottoms had a secret keeper, that wasn't a Death Eater. Hickengruendler From shokoono at gmx.de Sun Aug 17 08:59:36 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:59:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Half Vampire? (was: Vampire!Snape) Message-ID: <003701c3649d$e2bce860$0100007f@laptopcjs> No: HPFGUIDX 77626 > > > Wendy St. John wrote: > > >Why Half-Vampire? Because I like to think he was born that way, >and was > >already vampiric as a Hogwarts' student. But in canon, we've >seen him > >age, > >so he couldn't have been just a pure vampire, or his age would >remain > >static (unless JKR decides to play with that, which could very >well be > >the > >case - more on this in a bit). > > Okay, this is my first post so go easy on me. If Snape was *born* anything vampiric, he would have to be half-vampire since we know that pure vampires traditionally can't go out in the sun (and yes I'm assuming JKR's vamps can't stand sunlight). When he was at Hogwarts he certainly could go out in the sun because in Snapes Worst Memory JKR points out that the sun was shining brightly (or dazzling or something like that) just before James starts taunting Snape outside the castle. Since he was out in the sunlight at that point, he couldn't have been born pure vampire. > > Just backing you up although I also don't know how you make a half vampire but I guess if you can make a half giant then anythings possible. > > ~Lady Ronin (who really doesn't think he's a vampire at all but is willing to see all sides of this) > Me: The reason why those who prefer the Perseus Evans theory have found out that the mythological Perseus is the son of the Greec god Zeus and the mortal woman Danae. So if he was Perseus why shouldn't he have an immortal father (=vampire) ..... Yours Finchen ---------- Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei. _berpr_ft durch AVG Antivirensystem (http://www.grisoft.com/de). Version: 7.0.154 / Virendatenbank: 259.11.1 - Ausgabedatum: 14.08.2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Sun Aug 17 09:00:06 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:00:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Voldemort vs. Riddle Message-ID: <004401c3649d$f41a1920$0100007f@laptopcjs> No: HPFGUIDX 77627 > Maybe I'm being picky about the semantics (ignoring the all posts > discussing the word "either" ) but why would JKR have DD calling > it his "proper name" instead of just his "name?" Obviously she > wouldn't want to give away the key to CoS, but phrasing struck me as > unusual in light of all he has said about the power of names, etc. > Add to that the fact that DD knows it isn't his "proper" name, just > a stage name, if you will. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > Me: I wonder BTW how many people know that LV is Tom Riddle... It seem to me to be an additional "I know who you are and it's ridiculus that you do this pure blood thing as a half blood!" He also was his teacher and DD is a very powerfull wizard (this fight in the MOM ... wow DD really gave a hint about his powers!!!) If you knew a person for seven years you could also send out another message hat is not yet up to us to understand but might be solved in the next Order related part in book six. Yours Finchen ---------- Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei. _berpr_ft durch AVG Antivirensystem (http://www.grisoft.com/de). Version: 7.0.154 / Virendatenbank: 259.11.1 - Ausgabedatum: 14.08.2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shokoono at gmx.de Sun Aug 17 09:01:53 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:01:53 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory: Where did this come from? Message-ID: <005601c3649e$342339c0$0100007f@laptopcjs> No: HPFGUIDX 77628 > > > : OK, but I still don't get where this vampire > > thing comes from. > > If > > > > Snape is in fact a vampire, he's pretty > > pathetic. No one in the > > > books > > > > is even turning up with bite marks! Please, > > don't tell me he's > > > living > > > > off chickens or something. That's just > > undignified. > > > > > > > > > > > > > LOL! AND I still say the whole issue was shut in > > OoP. If he was a > > > Vampire and ESPECIALLY if he was a > > > Half/Quarter/Eighth/Sixteenth/adinfinitem Vampire > > UMBRIDGE WOULD > > HAVE > > > FIRED HIM! She'd have been checking students for > > bite marks during > > > his "reviews". She certainly wouldn't have stood > > around expecting > > > the best of him based on anything Lucius said. > > > > > > Melpomene, sick to DEATH of the Vampire "theory" > > > > Severus here: > > > > Vampires, unlike werewolves, are civilized, > > intellegent, and > > socially minded in most cases. Me: She just couldn't fire him that easy. Even Hagrid had to prove he's a bad teacher (which she found very easily). But Snape does a very good job. So she had no real reason for she made it much more difficult for halfbloods to find a job BUT THAT'S ALL!!! yours Finchen ---------- Ausgehende E-Mail ist virenfrei. _berpr_ft durch AVG Antivirensystem (http://www.grisoft.com/de). Version: 7.0.154 / Virendatenbank: 259.11.1 - Ausgabedatum: 14.08.2003 [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 17 09:27:12 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:27:12 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77629 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" > wrote: > > > My theory also may explain "the lost hours" when Hagrid is thought > to > > be caring for Harry before delivering him to Privet Drive. > > > > My witness is Frank Longbottom. > > > I have snipped from my earlier post number 77595. > > I forgot to add that Frank must have been the witness because he, and > his wife, suffered the brutal torture from the DEs in their attempts > to learn the whereabouts of LV from Frank. Good thinking! Fits the canon and ties up a loose end (why did the DEs think the Longbottoms knew where Voldy was?). Now if you would only turn your rigorous logic to the Prophecy.... Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 17 09:51:52 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:51:52 +0100 Subject: Scar? Message-ID: <6DCB3CF9-D098-11D7-A5C7-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77630 There's a throw-away line in 'Snapes worst memory' that interests me. 'But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, spattering his robes with blood.' This sounds as if it's more than a scratch. Now, will this heal to form a curse scar; if so, what shape will the scar be, and does it mean anything? Kneasy From pen at pensnest.co.uk Sun Aug 17 09:51:40 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:51:40 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: <3F3CC9D5.6000904@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> Message-ID: <66514309-D098-11D7-A639-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> No: HPFGUIDX 77631 On Friday, Aug 15, 2003, at 12:53 Europe/London, Ravenclaw Black wrote: > Very little happens in this book. Sure, Dolourus Umbridge is an > masochistic, worthless bureaucrat I just have to say that this is the *best* mis-spelling I have ever seen. Most enlightening, and I can't think why I didn't see it before! Pen From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Sun Aug 17 10:44:30 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:44:30 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Order of the Phoenix Review. In-Reply-To: <66514309-D098-11D7-A639-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> References: <66514309-D098-11D7-A639-0030654DED6A@pensnest.co.uk> Message-ID: <3F3F5C8E.7010105@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77632 Pen Robinson wrote: > > On Friday, Aug 15, 2003, at 12:53 Europe/London, Ravenclaw Black wrote: > > Very little happens in this book. Sure, Dolourus Umbridge is an > > masochistic, worthless bureaucrat > > I just have to say that this is the *best* mis-spelling I have ever > seen. Most enlightening, and I can't think why I didn't see it before! > > Pen Whoops. Well you can't blame me. The spell checker goes nuts with all the Harry Potter centric words when I write posts. I guess I've gotten too used to hitting skip on the names. Thanks for pointing it out though, now I can fix it on my web page. -Ravenclaw Black -- Colin's American Weblog in London [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Sun Aug 17 10:47:46 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:47:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Charlie Weasley's age In-Reply-To: <3F3F26BE.6070001@mail.ptd.net> References: <3F3F26BE.6070001@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: <3F3F5D52.6040801@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77633 T.M. Sommers wrote: > Lee wrote: > > > > But this doesn't include Ginny either, what about her? What if she > > becomes a Prefect? I think Molly was just being Zealous about Ron's > > badge that day, but still, its almost like Ginny's presence is almost > > an after thought. I don't know, that just sort of stood out to me. O.o > > I've wondered about that, too. I can see why Molly wouldn't count > Fred and George, since it was obvious that they could never be > prefects. But Ginny? It seems at least as plausible as Ron. Is > Molly's statement supposed to suggest that Ginny is not really part of > the family, perhaps that she is adopted? It seems highly unlikely; > Bill and Charlie would surely be old enough to know, if she were. And > she surely looks like a Weasley. > > But then why did Molly forget her only daughter? I guess she must > have meant "That's everyone in the family so far", but that just > doesn't sound right. "That's everyone in the family" sounds so final, > as if there are no more to come. > > Is a puzzlement. > Perhaps she just assumes that Ginny will be prefect as well. But I agree, it didn't sit right with me the way she excluded Fred and George. -Ravenclaw Black. -- Colin's American Weblog in London [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Sun Aug 17 10:58:04 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:58:04 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F3F5FBC.9060000@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77634 queenofeverythang wrote: > > The question is - is it possible to keep your own secret? Since > James & Lily share the same secret maybe they can't keep the > secret - maybe that defeats the purpose of the spell somehow. > Perhaps having an uninvolved party keeping the secret is the key > to what makes the spell work - a trust thing or something. at > least thats what i told myself so that it would make sense to me. > > but perhaps it still doesn't make complete sense - it's 4am, sue > me :) > > -QoE > Dumbledore in the Order's secret keeper, so it seems that yes, you can be your own keeper. Which does make one wonder why the Potters didn't keep their own secret. Ravenclaw Black -- Colin's American Weblog in London [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 17 11:25:04 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:25:04 -0000 Subject: EgyptWand-MoreWonderful-Snitch-SocialDE-1/2Human-Myopia-OWLs-Bilius-Cliod-etc Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77635 Hans from Holland wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76732 : << It appears that the wand originated in ancient Egypt. The early wand was actually a caduceus. That's a stick with a serpent wound around it. >> Nitpick: the wand-equivalent in ancient Egypt was not a cadeucus. It was boomerang shaped, carved from bone or ivory, carved with pictures which could include a *serpent* being defeated by a wildcat optionally using a flint knife instead of claws, or by a cheetah-headed goddess. Meow. Kneasy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76737 : << there is no reason to consider death wonderful. >> "Wonderful" means it fills people with wonder. Just as 'terrible' means it fills people with terror and 'awful' means it fills people with awe. (The word 'awful' having drifted in meaning, 'awesome' was a fair substitute until the Valley-girl slang destroyed it.) Death indeed does cause people to wonder. Gollymadeofclay wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76799 : << If the snitch is caught before any points are scored neither team wins. >> False. Catching the Snitch is worth 150 points, so if the Snitch is caught before any goals are scored, the team that catch it wins 150-0. jwcpgh wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76887 : << I don't think the DEs had a social relationship either, >> If not, where did Severus learn to call "Igor" by his given name? I don't think we saw Snape call anyone else by first name until Draco in OoP. Greatelderone wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76961 : << But Half-humans are allowed wands since we see Lupin carrying one and Hagrid has or had one. >> And Fleur, who is quarter-Veela. Pook catportkey wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77027 : << If the school's hospital has remedies to grow back bones, a plant to bring Mrs. Norris back and cures to make H's teeth grow shorter, how come they can't improve eye sight? Even DD wears glasses. What is it about the eyes that they can't get 20/20 vision? If I were LV, all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses --- his weakest point --- and finish him off (unless Harry is like Luke Skywalker, who has the FORCE with him and can zap attacks blindfolded). >> Some people suggested that wizards' eyes are resistant to magic like dragons are. Other people suggested that the wizarding folk simply haven't yet discovered the spells for fixing eyesight. Autumn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77056 : << Aren't Dumbledore, Harry, Myrtle and Percy the only ones that wear glasses? I have always wondered why so few wear glasses. >> Trelawney, Skeeter, McGonagall. Arthur Weasley. Ernie Prang. Vivamus wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77163 : << Has anyone identified the twelve subjects making up the 12 possible OWLs? (snip) 1. Defense Against the Dark Arts 2. Transfiguration 3. Charms 4. Herbology 5. Potions 6. History of Magic 7. Astronomy 8. Care of Magical Creatures 9. Divination 10. Arithmancy 11. Muggle Studies 12. The Study of Ancient Runes >> Could there be OWLs in subjects that aren't specific classes in the curriculum? Like maybe "Reading and Writing", "Arithmetic, Algebra, and Geometry", "Music"? Susanna Cedric wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77249 : << Could not find any meaning to the name Bilius. >> Bilious. It's a pun. From the joke about the primary school teacher on the first day of school. She asks one kid: "What is your name?" "Julie, ma'am." "Julius. We do not use nicknames in school." Then she asks the next kid: "What's your name?" "Um, Bilius, I guess." So I go on to the joke about the new father being congratulated by his work mates: "So what you going to name him?" "Jack, I think." "No, no! When I brought my son to be baptised, I said his name is Tom, and the priest he said ThomAS, so your son he'll say JackASS." Wendy St. John wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77448 : << she appears on one of the American "Chocolate Frog" cards (which, btw, are completely different from the ones released in Britain. Not even remotely similar). The card reads: "Cliodne [yes, it's spelled differently on the card than in the text of the book], Bird Animagus: The beautiful druid Cliodne had three magical birds that sang the sick to sleep and cured them. Legends say that she could take the shape of a sea bird or change into a wave. Her favourite hobby was flying." >> That description of Cliodna's birds sounds like Rhiannon's birds from the Mabinogion, or at least from Evangeline Walton's retelling thereof. I wonder whether one is the original bird-keeper and the other copied that trait in modern times or in folkloric times. Summer wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77493 : << Isn't it possible that Crookshanks and Regulus could be one and the same? >> I am impressed by the originality of your suggestion. But I'm a little dubious that Regulus in cat form would adore Sirius, when it seems that Regulus in human form didn't get along well with Sirius. Batchevra wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77590 : << in the Pensieve scene of Snape's worst memory, Sirius uses Locomotor Mortis in the US version, Petrificus totalus in the UK version. >> Which reminds me how much I was disturbed to see so much Locomotor this and Locomotor that in OoP (US edition): shouldn't it have been Mobilicorpus instead of Locomotor Mortis? And Mobili-something for Tonks to move Harry's trunk? From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 11:31:51 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:31:51 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77636 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Erica" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serenadust" > > > wrote: > > > > My point is that there really isn't the "something more" you > speak > > > > of, IMO. Can I ask you to go back and read messages 52038 and > > > > 52039? This is Dicentra's famous "Anatomy of a Rift" essay > where > > > > she does a spectacular job of dissecting this episode. ... > > > > > > > > Jo Serenadust > > > > > > Thanks for pointing out these posts. They are truly excellent. > And > > > before I'm accused of "me, too", I pull this paragraph out of > your > > > (well-written) longer post for those who might have skimmed over > it > > > and missed the reference. > > > > > > Ravenclaw Bookworm > > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > Well yes, Dicentra's Posts titled 'Anatomy of a Rift - Parts 1 & 2' > > are a most excellent essay, but I recommend- > > > > > > Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42739 > > > > Ron: GoF: Betrayed or Jealous? Revisited. > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43801 > > > > Why, you might ask? Because I wrote them, I reply. > > > > Contain line by line analysis (Am Ed) of the first time Ron and > Harry > > speak after Harry's name comes out of the Goblet of Fire. > > > > There are other Posts on the same subject but I think these two > thread > > are the most comprehensive analysis by this group of the fight > between > > Harry and Ron in 'Goblet of Fire'. Opinions weighing strongly on > both > > sides. > > > > Direct Links to 'Anatomy of a Rift'- > > > > Anatomy of a Rift (Part 1 of 2) LONG > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52038 > > > > Anatomy of a Rift (Part 2 of 2) LONG > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52039 > > > > Just thought I would pass it along. For the record; I say BETRAYAL. > > > > bboy_mn > > When Harry returns from his trial at the MoM, Ron is ecstatic to > learn that Harry 'got off', however, what I find interesting is the > way that he puts it: > > 'I knew it!' yelled Ron punching the air. 'You always get away with > stuff'. Do you suppose there is anything 'lurking' in the 'You > always get away with stuff'? > > Erica Wouldn't that be a normal reaction? I mean kids tend to say exactly what they mean. Ron's response is definately something a teenager would say. Harry does "get away with stuff." And Ron has said it in a very happy moment, "Punching the air". It was not said in a mean, dispirted way. D From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 07:59:10 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 07:59:10 -0000 Subject: Is Draco worse than James Was? (was: Does SSthink of DMas the son he never had) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77637 > Marika wrote: >I'm not sure I agree that Draco is that much worse than James >Potter. Draco makes rude comments, he is spiteful towards Harry and >his friends and he sniggers a lot. A few times he has done some >really bad things, but it's not like his favourite sport is to >attack an unprepared and lonely student and humiliate this person in >front of all his class mates. Some replies snipped out here, as I don't want to cover the same ground twice in one thread. > Marika again: >But when it comes to Harry and his friends, I believe that Draco >feels justified in acting the way he does. I'm not saying he is - >but in his mind he is just getting even. Harry humiliated him the >first day at school when he turned down his offer of friendship. >Harry reacted like every decent person would have done, but since >Draco is raised to believe that your family history is important, he >can't see what's so upsetting about his offer. >Harry, Ron and Hermione stand up for each other. They are not >lonely outsiders. When Potter and Black on the other hand attacked >Snape, it seemed like they did it just for fun and that Snape didn't >have any real friends. This might not be true, but for now, that's >all we know. >I'm not trying to say that Draco is a nice guy. He isn't. But from >what I have seen of him so far, I don't think he is a hundred times >worse than James Potter. But he might be very soon, unless >something happens to change his view of the world. Margaret (me): The last part first: I don't see Draco coming to any great spiritual epiphany, he seems to have pretty firmly chosen the dark side at the end of OoP. Maybe he will, I'm not saying it's impossible. Maybe Pansy Parkinson will get killed and he'll realize Voldemort is evil (and not in the warm fuzzy way). He seems to have been raised to follow the Dark Arts, and he doesn't seem to be rebelling like Sirius did. James was a basically good person who's ego was the size of Cleveland. I don't see 'justification due to humiliation' as being Draco's reasoning here. The only people present when Harry turned down Draco's offer of friendship were Ron, Crabbe, and Goyle. Ron obviously doesn't count in Draco's opinion, as we've seen numerous times. C&G are too stupid to do any independent resoning of their own, they just do what they're told. I think it might have been Harry's holier than thou attitude, saying Draco was the "wrong sort" of wizard, someone like Draco won't take kindly to someone who doesn't think he's wonderful. About Snape: He may not have had the kind supportive friends that HRH provide for each other, but he did have some friends. Either Lupin or Sirius said in PoA that Snape was part of a gang of Slytherins that all became Death Eaters. It was after their O.W.L. exams, so it was their 5th year. If he was going to have a gang, he probably had some of them by then. Compare SS/JP to HP/DM Sirius said Snape never missed an opportunity to curse/hex/jinx James, then implied that James was just faster so Snape didn't get many opportunities. James retaliates in kind, partly because he doesn't like Snape personally, and partly because "What ever kind of idiot your father was, James always hated the Dark Arts." And no matter how awful he was to a kid who was obsessed with the DAs (he became a DE after all) I don't think James would have tormented someone like Neville. (I have a soft spot for Neville, which may be part of why I'm so anti-Malfoy.) Sirius also said Snape was always following MWPP around trying to get them in trouble, even expelled. Makes Snape sound more like the bully than the victim, doesn't it? (yes I know it's a very biased source, but it's canon that's never been contradicted.) Harry would never curse/hex/jinx someone without provocation of some kind. Draco is perfectly willing to hit Harry when his back is turned (the infamous 'bouncing ferret'), gang up on him with C&G every time they're on the Hogwarts Express to and from school. Draco abuses his position, both as prefect and as a member of Umbridge's Inquisitorial Squad. ("nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!" Sorry, had to throw that in ;-) JRK has even said she's a Monty Python fan.) Basically, Draco torments everyone who isn't a Slytherin (except maybe the Ravenclaws, I don't remember him doing anything to them) and they can't ALL have humiliated him at some point! ~Margaret, still a member of the Pro-Snape movement From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 08:34:17 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 08:34:17 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77638 > Wanda wrote: >I'm interested in the line, "and the Dark Lord will mark him as his >equal..." >In this case, Dumbledore could be wrong, as was >the person who relabelled the prophecy in the MoM. Voldemort might >have "marked" the wrong person, and the transfer of powers will not >be decisive in defeating him. >Next point, in what way is Harry Voldemort's "equal"? He has >nowhere near as much power; even though he's outwitted him 4 times, >he himself says that it had as much to do with luck and help as >anything. > ~<(Laurasia)>~ >Okay, so what you have to consider is this- Voldemort has been told >that a baby has the power to vanquish him. He doesn't have to accept >it. He could just say that Trelawney is a fraud or that the prophecy >is not true, or not specific enough to actually predict his own >demise... BUT he goes out there and believes it. Voldemort believes >that Harry has the power to defeat him. He is scared of him. He >considers Harry to be a real threat. This is why he went out and >tried to kill him- nearly causing his own destruction. This is why >he's obsessed with laying hands on him in GoF and finding out the >prophecy in OoP. >The point I'm trying to make here is that Voldemort has marked Harry >as equal just by considering him a threat. Voldemort considers Harry >to be his equal- this is why he went out and tried to kill him. If >Voldemort didn't consider Harry to be his equal then he wouldn't >have bothered to try and destroy him. So, the very fact that >Voldemort believes that Harry is his equal is 'marking as equal.' >Harry mightn't necessarily be Voldemort's equal in power (Harry >definitely doesn't think he is)- BUT Voldemort thinks that he is. >This is the whole crux of the prohpecy- it *could* have been either >Harry or Neville, but at the second when Voldemort chose Harry as >thought- 'Harry Potter is the one of whom this prophecy speaks. He >has the power to defeat me. I must defeat him.' he is 'marking him >as equal.' He is saying that Harry is a threat. And in doing so he >passes on his own powers to him. So, you see, before Harry was >attacked he wasn't Voldemort's equal at all. It is Voldemort's >attack on him that transfers the powers, links Voldemort and Harry >together via the scar and makes Harry become more powerful than he >would have been. >Think about the people who Voldemort fears... Dumbledore... and >Harry Potter. It's a very short list. He's afraid of them because he >considers them to has more power than he does, or be equal to him in >power. No matter how much power Harry actually has, the very fact >that Voldemort thinks he has plenty is an advantage than no-one else >(bar Dumbledore) in the wizarding world has. >Also to note- Voldemort has in no way marked Neville as equal. The >very fact that Voldemort has not bothered Neville at all proves that >he thinks that Neville poses no threat to him whatsoever. >The prophecy hangs together on this line >"and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal..." >Voldemort *can't* have marked the wrong person because it was always >his choice. The was no right or wrong person until Voldemort chose >who they would be. He chose between Harry and Neville. And he chose >Harry. He *marked* Harry by trying to kill him. His choice of Harry >sealed his fate- by considering Harry to be a threat to him would >mean accepting that he is the one in the prophecy. By trying to kill >him he passed on his powers to Harry. By giving these powers to >Harry he gave Harry the powers to kill him. They do have a >connecting scar after all. Even if you don't want to believe that >the power that Voldemort tranferred to Harry (eg Parseltongue) will >help Harry defeat him, the whole scar thing is harder to explain >away. Margaret (me): I still think the prophecy *may* mean Neville. No, Voldemort did not "mark him" in the physical sense, but not all marks are visible. Perhaps it means psychologically, in a way Voldemort's responsible for who Neville is, just as he is for who Harry is. The attack on Harry could be what 'marked' Neville (just go with me for a sec on this one). - Voldemort attacks the infant Harry Potter, causing his own destruction. His downfall is why the Lestranges and Barty Crouch Jr. tourtured Frank and Alice Longbottom into insanity, thus insuring Neville has a constant reminder of why Voldemort MUST be defeated. It's after the breakout from Azkaban that Neville starts showing real improvement magically. - Voldemort seems to discount Neville as the one meant in the prophecy, even though Neville is the pureblood wizard (the only type worth associating with according to Voldemort) and it's the people you least expect that turn out to be the dangerous ones sometimes. The fact that Voldemort does NOT see Neville as his equal could cause him some problems if he ever comes face to face with Neville in combat. He won't think Neville's worth the trouble of his best abilites, and he'll probably let his guard down. A foolish mistake, but one that has many precedents. The scar could really just be a scar. Dumbledore said in SS/PS "that is what you get when a powerful evil curse touches you." It could just be what we've always been told, it's what happens when someone is shielded from an Avada Kedavra curse. In which case, if Voldemort had decided Neville was the dangerous one, he would have attacked the Longbottoms, I'm sure Alice would have done the same thing for her son that Lily did for hers, and Neville would have a scar. It still fulfills the theory I've outlined here, just changes the cast around a little. ~Margaret From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 09:09:02 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 09:09:02 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77639 Confusinglyso wrote: >I have checked Lexicon and archives in vain for any clues to who >was able to tell WW that LV had lost his powers and indeed his body >in the attack on Harry. For the WW to know of the extent of LV's >downfall in such detail requires an eyewitness, and the witness must >have been from the good side, since a DE would not have let the news >out so quickly. {snipped} My witness is Frank Longbottom. {major snip} Marianne's reply: >Well, a problem with this theory is that both Hagrid and Sirius say >that they met at the Potters' house. Hagrid tells us that he >rescued Harry out of the ruins of the Potters' house and then Sirius >turns up with his motorcycle. (PoA, US edition, pg. 206.) And, at >this point, the discussion takes place as to whether Harry should be >handed over to his godfather or if Hagrid's instructions from >Dumbledore should take precedence. There is absolutely no canon to >indicate that this encounter takes place anywhere other than at the >Potters'. Margaret (me): (Possibly) wild theory alert! We know that Godric's Hollow must have contained muggle homes as well as wizards, since Hogsmeade is the only entirely wizard settlement in Britan. Dumbledore has been using Arabella Figg to keep an eye on Harry since he's been living at the Dursleys. Now it is very unlikely that a Squib member of the OoP just happened to be living across the street from the only surviving maternal realative of 'the boy who lived'. So what if Arabella Figg was living in Godric's Hollow to keep an extra eye on the Potters? She wouldn't even have to be in on the Secret Keeper bit, just keeping an eye out for anyone in town who might cause trouble. A wizard must stick out like a sore thumb to a squib, even if he is in muggle clothing. Anyone who isn't in the Order drops by, and she alerts Dumbledore. Since she's not a witch, she'd probably be off of Voldemort's radar (I have no canon to back this up except Voldemort's total contempt of muggles and muggle- born wizards) You can't disguise a house blowing up (especially one that appeared out of no where as my personal theory of a spilled Kept Secret implies) even if the Death Eaters and Voldemort tried (I'm gussing they didn't, they liked to advertise their kills) and she alerted Dumbledore. Dumbledore told Hagrid, who went to find Harry. She was then moved to Privet Drive to keep watch over Harry. ~Margaret From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 11:34:45 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:34:45 -0000 Subject: EgyptWand-MoreWonderful-Snitch-SocialDE-1/2Human-Myopia-OWLs-Bilius-Cliod-etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77640 > > Pook catportkey wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77027 : > >If the school's hospital has remedies to grow back bones, a plant >to bring Mrs. Norris back and cures to make H's teeth grow shorter, >how come they can't improve eye sight? Even DD wears glasses. What >is it about the eyes that they can't get 20/20 vision? If I were LV, >all I'd do is remove Harry's glasses --- his weakest point --- and >finish him off (unless Harry is like Luke Skywalker, who has the >FORCE with him and can zap attacks blindfolded). >> Catlady replied: >Some people suggested that wizards' eyes are resistant to magic like >dragons are. Other people suggested that the wizarding folk simply >haven't yet discovered the spells for fixing eyesight. Margaret (me): That theory won't work. A dragon's eyes are it's WEAKEST point (GoF US hardcover pg 406) as Sirius said in his letter to Harry in the chapter The Yule Ball: "I was going to suggest a Conjunctuvitis Curse as a dragon's eyes are it's weakest point." "That's what Krum did!" Hermione whispered. And as we know, Krum's way hurt the dragon so much, it crushed a lot of it's own eggs. ~Margaret, patiently awaiting demodded status From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 11:49:17 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:49:17 -0000 Subject: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77641 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellejir" wrote: > It strikes me that we (the readers of the series) most likely have > knowledge that the characters in the book *do not* seem to have. > *We* know that the story is going to end in two more years, and, > thus, that the final showdown between Harry and Lord V. is going to > happen during that time frame. (I really doubt that JKR will end the > series with the trio taking their N.E.W.T.S. and throwing their > graduation caps in the air--if that is even done in the U.K.--and > then toss in an epilogue stating that Harry subsequently defeated > Lord V. and lived happily ever after.) > That said, Harry seems very ill-prepared. No one seems very > interested in preparing Harry for the final showdown. Three of his 5 > DADA teachers have been incompetent (and a fourth was an insane > DE...) If the prophecy is true, the fate of the whole WW depends on > Harry defeating Voldemort. If anyone needs to learn defense against > the dark arts, it is Harry. Yet DD remains strangely unconcerned > about Harry's preparation. He sets Snape up as the Occlumency > teacher, and everyone falls all over himself telling Harry how > important it is that he master Occlumency. Then Snape's ickle- > feelings get hurt and he says "Screw the last hope of the wizarding > world!" and stops the lessons. > I suppose one explanation is that DD realizes that Harry is > hopelessly outmatched by LV in terms of his magical skill and thinks > that the power that Harry has to defeat Lord V must be something > innate (i.e cannot be taught.) Wizarding power seems to be mostly > inborn--rather like intelligence (i.e. you are born either to be a > squib or a Dumbledore, and no amount of academic instruction will > make you into a DD if you are a squib.) Still....it seems to me that > Harry could use a bit more quality teaching. And they better get > cracking... > Elle (who believes--like Hermione--that Harry needs to stop fiddling > as Rome burns and study longer and harder) I can appreciate your thinking here. But does that explain Lockhart? He is not a squib. He can perform magic. He said himself that he was particularly good at Memory Charms. (Not sure if that was a quote from the book or the movie or both, as I do not have CoS handy). There are degrees of talent in the WW. Pettegrew was not particularly talented. Witness how he had to work harder to become an animagus. Yes, Harry should be getting more intensive training and perhaps paying better attention. But now that he knows about the prophesy, don't you think, once he gets over his grief and anger, he might apply himself more knowing that it's either Voldemort or him? I also believe that Harry is quite powerful. There are various clues given in all the books. Take, SS for example. Harry is the only student who is able to summon his broom immediately. Even Draco wasn't as quick as Harry. In PoA wasn't Lupin surprised at Harry being able to summon even a weak patronus? And what about GoF, when Harry is able to defy the Imperious Curse, albeit with a little practice? By the end of that lesson, he is able to throw off the curse entirely. Just a few ideas. D From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 11:54:53 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:54:53 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77642 Margaret wrote): > I still think the prophecy *may* mean Neville. No, Voldemort did > not "mark him" in the physical sense, but not all marks are visible. > Perhaps it means psychologically, in a way Voldemort's responsible > for who Neville is, just as he is for who Harry is. > > The attack on Harry could be what 'marked' Neville (just go with me > for a sec on this one). Okay, so I accept that Neville is *marked* by Voldemort. But he's not *marked as equal*. You said it yourself: >"The fact that Voldemort does NOT see Neville as his equal could >cause >m some problems if he ever comes face to face with Neville in >combat." Voldemort, whilst he has marked Neville in many ways- through the torturing of his parents etc, none of those ways constitute being 'marked as equal.' Voldemort does not consider Neville to be his equal. The prophecy is referring to someone being 'marked as equal' by the Dark Lord, not someone who is merely marked. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 11:56:51 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:56:51 -0000 Subject: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellejir" wrote: > > It strikes me that we (the readers of the series) most likely have > > knowledge that the characters in the book *do not* seem to have. > > *We* know that the story is going to end in two more years, and, > > thus, that the final showdown between Harry and Lord V. is going to > > happen during that time frame. (I really doubt that JKR will end > the > > series with the trio taking their N.E.W.T.S. and throwing their > > graduation caps in the air--if that is even done in the U.K.--and > > then toss in an epilogue stating that Harry subsequently defeated > > Lord V. and lived happily ever after.) > > That said, Harry seems very ill-prepared. No one seems very > > interested in preparing Harry for the final showdown. Three of his > 5 > > DADA teachers have been incompetent (and a fourth was an insane > > DE...) If the prophecy is true, the fate of the whole WW depends > on > > Harry defeating Voldemort. If anyone needs to learn defense > against > > the dark arts, it is Harry. Yet DD remains strangely unconcerned > > about Harry's preparation. He sets Snape up as the Occlumency > > teacher, and everyone falls all over himself telling Harry how > > important it is that he master Occlumency. Then Snape's ickle- > > feelings get hurt and he says "Screw the last hope of the wizarding > > world!" and stops the lessons. > > I suppose one explanation is that DD realizes that Harry is > > hopelessly outmatched by LV in terms of his magical skill and > thinks > > that the power that Harry has to defeat Lord V must be something > > innate (i.e cannot be taught.) Wizarding power seems to be mostly > > inborn--rather like intelligence (i.e. you are born either to be a > > squib or a Dumbledore, and no amount of academic instruction will > > make you into a DD if you are a squib.) Still....it seems to me > that > > Harry could use a bit more quality teaching. And they better get > > cracking... > > Elle (who believes--like Hermione--that Harry needs to stop > fiddling > > as Rome burns and study longer and harder) > > I can appreciate your thinking here. But does that explain > Lockhart? He is not a squib. He can perform magic. He said himself > that he was particularly good at Memory Charms. (Not sure if that > was a quote from the book or the movie or both, as I do not have CoS > handy). There are degrees of talent in the WW. Pettegrew was not > particularly talented. Witness how he had to work harder to become > an animagus. > > Yes, Harry should be getting more intensive training and perhaps > paying better attention. But now that he knows about the prophesy, > don't you think, once he gets over his grief and anger, he might > apply himself more knowing that it's either Voldemort or him? > > I also believe that Harry is quite powerful. There are various clues > given in all the books. Take, SS for example. Harry is the only > student who is able to summon his broom immediately. Even Draco > wasn't as quick as Harry. > > In PoA wasn't Lupin surprised at Harry being able to summon even a > weak patronus? And what about GoF, when Harry is able to defy the > Imperious Curse, albeit with a little practice? By the end of that > lesson, he is able to throw off the curse entirely. > > Just a few ideas. > > D Another show of Harry's inherent power was givenin PS/SS when he stated he found himself on the roof of the school cafeteria. Obviously Harry can apparate without any training and from everything written in the books about apparating its not easy thing to do. Harry is very powerful IMNO, its just not been brought to fruition. Fran From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 12:06:55 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:06:55 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77644 I originally wrote: > > Also to note- Voldemort has in no way marked Neville as equal. The > > very fact that Voldemort has not bothered Neville at all proves > that > > he thinks that Neville poses no threat to him whatsoever. Hickengruendler responded: > We don't actually know this, that he hasn't bother Neville. In fact, > if I were Voldemort and heard, that a baby could be my downfall, I > would try to kill both possible candidates, just to get sure. It is > IMO absolutely possible, if not likely, that Voldemort wanted to kill > both babies, but that he had the opportunity to kill Harry first, > because the Longbottoms had a secret keeper, that wasn't a Death > Eater. Me (Laurasia): Well, he didn't seem remotely interested in Neville at the Department of Mysteries. Neville wasn't kidnapped and tied to a Gravestone in his fourth year. So maybe Voldemort *wanted* to kill both Harry and Neville when they were one, but he seems to have stopped trying to kill Neville since then. This, IMO, shows that Voldemort has accpeted that Harry is the one spoken of in the prophecy. The prophecy hangs together on one line 'the Dark Lord will mark him as equal.' The Dark Lord *chooses* who is his equal. He thinks that Harry is his equal, not Neville. Maybe 14 years ago he thought that they both *could* be the one in the prophecy, but ever since Harry thwarted him he seems to have focussed entirely on Harry as his equal, Harry as the one who he must defeat and Harry who poses the biggest danger to him. In other words- even if Voldemort was originally planning to kill both babies he now only considers Harry to be his equal and considers Neville to be no threat to him at all. Voldemort never got the chance to mark Neville. Maybe he was going to... but he's only ever marked Harry as equal and to be a threat. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 12:10:32 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:10:32 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77645 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > > Margaret wrote): > > > I still think the prophecy *may* mean Neville. No, Voldemort did > > not "mark him" in the physical sense, but not all marks are > visible. > > Perhaps it means psychologically, in a way Voldemort's responsible > > for who Neville is, just as he is for who Harry is. > > > > The attack on Harry could be what 'marked' Neville (just go with me > > for a sec on this one). > > Okay, so I accept that Neville is *marked* by Voldemort. But he's not > *marked as equal*. > You said it yourself: > > >"The fact that Voldemort does NOT see Neville as his equal could > >cause > >m some problems if he ever comes face to face with Neville in > >combat." > > Voldemort, whilst he has marked Neville in many ways- through the > torturing of his parents etc, none of those ways constitute > being 'marked as equal.' Voldemort does not consider Neville to be > his equal. The prophecy is referring to someone being 'marked as > equal' by the Dark Lord, not someone who is merely marked. > > > ~<(Laurasia)>~ Sorry this post will be so short, but... Being marked as an equal, could that possibly mean that there is a familial connection between Harry and Voldemort? Since "blood" is so important to Voldemort, wouldn't he think that someone in his own bloodline be more powerful than someone who wasn't? D From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Aug 17 12:21:58 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:21:58 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77646 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: >> Sorry this post will be so short, but... > > Being marked as an equal, could that possibly mean that there is a > familial connection between Harry and Voldemort? > > Since "blood" is so important to Voldemort, wouldn't he think that > someone in his own bloodline be more powerful than someone who > wasn't? > > I wonder that too; and maybe that's why he didn't particularly want to kill Lily. Maybe she is a blood relation, and he preferred not to kill "one of his own" if he could help it. Wanda From t.forch at mail.dk Sun Aug 17 13:17:09 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:17:09 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030817141844.00bb2c50@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 77647 At 01:12 16-08-03 +0000, Erica wrote: >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goodnight_moon5" >wrote: > > > > OK, here's a shorter link to the post Troels tried to send: > > > http://www.google.com/groups?selm=e536d9e6.0307031614.6e5296f6% > > 40posting.google.com&output=gplain Otherwise it should work as http://tinyurl.com/k9t0 >I don't understand how this quote can be considered at all since it >doesn't exist/is not referenced outside of the alt.fan.harry-potter >group. Searching the Web (Google) for "Harry wird mit jemandem >beenden" returns nothing. That specific quotation is fortunately denoted as "unverified". The rest of the quotations are, however, quite all right - whatever people wish to make of it must be their own business (I didn't post it because I wanted to prove anything - I just thought it contained just about everything JKR has said about that matter). Troels From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 13:30:28 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 06:30:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030817133028.16016.qmail@web20709.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77648 D wrote: I can appreciate your thinking here. But does that explain Lockhart? He is not a squib. He can perform magic. He said himself that he was particularly good at Memory Charms. (Not sure if that was a quote from the book or the movie or both, as I do not have CoS handy). There are degrees of talent in the WW. Pettegrew was not particularly talented. Witness how he had to work harder to become an animagus. My reply: The memory charms was in both the movie and the book. Obviously as in real life, the wizarding world has degrees of talent. As for Pettigrew, look who his best friends were. By all accounts James and Sirius were two of the most talented wizards in the school at that time. I doubt Pettigrew was that untalented but he still had to work.Just nothing in comparison to Sirius and James, who to me represented students who were able to succeed at things with little or no effort at all. ~Melanie ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From rredordead at aol.com Sun Aug 17 13:51:06 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:51:06 -0000 Subject: Augustus vs. Algernon (was:Neville's Evil Gran?! ) In-Reply-To: <3a.3d1cfc13.2c6fea5a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > Katrina: > > The Lexicon says under Augustus Rookwood, "In first British > >editions of The Order of the Phoenix, Rookwood's name is erroneously > >given as Algernon" > > Mandy: > >Thanks Katrina I had missed that. However, how do we know it was a > >mistake in the UK first edition? Surly that came first before the > >US 'translation'. > > Except that this is OoP that we're talking about. The UK and US editiions > were published simultaneously (well, OK, five hours apart). Given that JKR had > contracts with both publishers before completing the manuscript, I doubt that > Bloomsbury got hold of it much ahead of Scholastic. > > If, in the UK GoF, we have an Augustus Rookwood of the Dept of Mysteries > mentioned at Bagman's court appearance as having passsed on Ministry secrets (I'm > working from memory - a child has had the audacity to borrow the book ) and > then in the UK OoP, we have an Algernon Rookwood convicted of leaking MoM > secrets, application of Occam's razor suggests that "Algernon" is an error. > > OK, it might not be, but in that case, we have to assume that JKR's US > editors made a mistake, *assumed* it was an error and "corrected" it, presumably > with JKR's consent. > > In previous discussions of the discrepancies between the UK and US editions, > it has become clear, at least to me, that the UK and US editorial processes > are quite separate. Time and again we find errors that have been corrected in > one edition and left in the other. > > Why this should be, I can't imagine. Why, if her US editor picks up an > apparent error (which presumably needs to be checked with the author before > correction), this isn't then brought to the attention of JKR's UK publisher (or vice > versa) is something I've never fathomed. > > ~Eloise > > Although he could just be Augustus Algernon Rookwood, which has a certain > ring to it. Or perhaps he's *really* Algernon, but before he was outed as a DE > and a mole, assumed the name Augustus as he felt it cut a bit more of a dash. > Thanks again. I do like Augustus Algernon Rookwood. Mandy From innovan at broadviewnet.net Sun Aug 17 14:00:33 2003 From: innovan at broadviewnet.net (innovan) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:00:33 -0000 Subject: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellejir" wrote: > No one seems very > interested in preparing Harry for the final showdown. > Three of his 5 > DADA teachers have been incompetent (and a fourth was an insane > DE...) If the prophecy is true, the fate of the whole WW depends on > Harry defeating Voldemort. If anyone needs to learn defense against > the dark arts, it is Harry. Yet DD remains strangely unconcerned > about Harry's preparation. Prophecies are difficult to read correctly except in hindsight. Harry defeated Voldemort in the first book of the series --was that fufilling the prophecy? What a fortunate coicidence, that HP fufills the prophecy in his first year at Hogworts and no more Voldemort ever again. Harry then defeated the Lord Voldemort diary in volume II --was that fufilling the prophecy --again? The only thing the prophecy establishes conclusively is that DD, a wizard strong enough to effect the outcome of WWII, can't defeat Lord Voldemort for Harry this time. And if Love Conquers All, or at least Love Conquers Voldemort, Harry's hardly going to learn the Power of Love by grimly being reduced to an efficent Terminator-like killing machine. [Plus he'd become a one-dimensional bore] --Innovan From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 17 14:13:16 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:13:16 -0000 Subject: EgyptWand-MoreWonderful-Snitch-SocialDE-1/2Human-Myopia-OWLs-Bilius-Cliod-etc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77651 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > Hans from Holland wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76732 : > > > Kneasy wrote in > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/76737 : > > << there is no reason to consider death wonderful. >> > > "Wonderful" means it fills people with wonder. Just as 'terrible' > means it fills people with terror and 'awful' means it fills people > with awe. (The word 'awful' having drifted in meaning, 'awesome' was > a fair substitute until the Valley-girl slang destroyed it.) Death > indeed does cause people to wonder. > I love a nit-picker! Gives me a chance to return the favour plus add some sophistry of my own. According to the OED Wonder *can* mean thought or speculation or curiosity. It has the original meaning of great surprise or astonishment, of something impressively unusual - The Seven Wonders of the World, for example. Wonderful has only one context:- Wonder or astonishment, marvellous, very remarkable or admirable, extremely good, excellent. No negative implications, you'll note. I repeat, there is nothing wonderful about death. It may cause speculation, curiosity or thoughtfulness, but it is not marvellous, admirable or impressively unusual - there's one per person, after all. Kneasy From rredordead at aol.com Sun Aug 17 14:20:48 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:20:48 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77652 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > I have checked Lexicon and archives in vain for any clues to who was > able to tell WW that LV had lost his powers and indeed his body in > the attack on Harry. > > For the WW to know of the extent of LV's downfall in such detail > requires an eyewitness, and the witness must have been from the good > side, since a DE would not have let the news out so quickly. > > My theory also may explain "the lost hours" when Hagrid is thought to > be caring for Harry before delivering him to Privet Drive. > > My witness is Frank Longbottom. The Potters and Longbottoms are > linked by the prophesy, they were all in the original Order of the > Phoenix, and maybe were neighbours in Godric's Hollow. > > I think Frank was in or near the Potter house unknown and unseen by > LV. LV kills James, then Lily with Harry runs toward Frank but LV > kills Lily and attacks Harry without seeing Frank. > > Frank sees the 'destruction' of LV and the house falling down. He > knows James and Lily are dead but Harry is unconcious at least, and > trapped by heavy timbers or masonry. He sends high speed owl to DD. > DD and Hagrid arrive. Hagrid uses his strength to uncover and release > Harry. Frank takes Harry to his home where Alice can care for him > while DD decides on Harry's long term future. DD sends Hagrid to > Hogwarts, perhaps for the 'Put Outer', where Hagrid also tells > Professor McGonagall what has happened and the plan to deliver Harry > to Privet Drive. Hagrid returns to Longbottoms to collect Harry and > meets Sirius and borrows the motorcycle. The rest is canon. > > accio snitch - game over Great theory. It would mean of course Frank was in on the Secret Keeper business, as Peter would have had to have told him the address of the house for Frank to see it and gain entry. But it's possible Peter did not pass this info on to LV or didn't think it was important or perhaps he did and LV didn't care and tried and failed to kill Frank. I love the idea that the voice Harry has heard shouting to his mum was not actually his dad but Frank Longbottom. Mandy From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 14:23:38 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:23:38 -0000 Subject: house elf questions Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77653 As I was rereading OoP and wanting to have that wretched Kreachur join his relatives on the wall of Grimmauld Place, some questions about house elves crossed my mind. I went back and looked in the archives, the Lexicon and the Fantastic Posts but I didn't find answers. However, I didn't go all the way back to the beginning of the archive, so if these questions have been discussed and resolved in the past, please forgive me for bringing them up again. Where do house elves come from? How long do they live? How do they reproduce, that is, do they marry or pair off in some other way? How does a family acquire one? Are there house elves without families (or family substitutes, like Hogwarts)? Some of the posts in the archive suggested parallels between house elves and other elves in literature-Tolkien's, for instance. But I don't see the comparison, really-they are entirely different sorts of beings. (What do Legolas and Dobby have in common, after all?) Any ideas? Laura From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 14:44:41 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:44:41 -0000 Subject: TBAY: The Return of the Trimaran Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77654 It's a beautiful TBAY morning. Gentle waves lap rhythmically against the shore, and a cool breeze makes the heat bearable. On the pier at the back of the Royal George Tavern (sometimes known as the Pink Flamingo), George the barman surveys the bay with satisfaction. The beaches seem to have been cleared of the driftwood of splintered theories, and are pristine once again. Even Stoned!Harry's amputated leg, which washed ashore a few days ago and had been causing quite a stink, seems to have been carried off by a passing seagull. George sighs contentedly and gets on with sweeping the pier when he hears the unmistakable sound of oars in the water, followed shortly by a cheerful cry. "George! Over here, George! Throw me a rope, would ya?" "Abigail?" George cries in astonishment, for it is indeed Abigail, rowing towards him in George's very own dingy, which he lent her right before Hurricane Jo hit. George has had, in the intervening weeks, quite a few second thoughts about lending Abigail the boat. She had set out in search of the Imperius!Arthur trimaran, which hadn't been heard from since the storm hit. "You're alive!" He exclaims. "I thought you were a goner when you didn't reappear right after the hurricane. And the trimaran hasn't been spotted..." The words die in George's mouth as he gazes in the direction from which Abigail has been sailing. The Imperius!Arthur trimaran looms impressively on the horizon. Its triple canon gleaming in the sunlight. In fact, the entire ship seems to gleam, although George notices a few patches on one of its sides. One of the cabins appears to have undergone a serious renovation. Wordlessly, George helps Abigail climb the ladder up to the pier. She is sunburnt, and wears a gaudy Hawaiian shirt. Her many-pocketed overcoat is slung over one arm, and the other bears a black armband with the letters SB written on it. Joyfully, she flings herself in George's arms. "Sweet George!" She cries. "I knew you were canonically sound!" "Nah, I was just lucky." George says with deprecating smile. "You should have seen that Hurricane Jo, Abigail. The way it passed one theory completely untouched and devastated another one. There was no rhyme or reason to it." "Tell me about it." Abigail replies. "We were all of a panic on the trimaran. Triple canon or not, that was one scary storm. But we made it." She beams, "And with new canon!" "Come inside and tell me all about it." Making sure that his dingy is firmly tied to the pier, George guides Abigail into the cool, dark interior of the inn. He gets behind the bar and pours Abigail a drink while she climbs a barstool. "Well," She begins. "As you well know, the Imperius!Arthur trimaran, home of the theory that Arthur was placed under an Imperius curse during the first war with Voldemort, is based on the irrefutable triple canon of the Unforgivable Curses lesson, as laid out by Elkins in message #37121." Abigail clears her throat and recites: >>I also see a certain symmetry emerging in [The Unforgivable Curses] chapter if we accept as our hypothesis that Ron's father was indeed, at one time, a victim of the Imperius Curse. Crouch calls on Ron to volunteer the name of the Imperius. He calls on Neville to volunteer the name of the Cruciatus. I feel absolutely certain that he was just *dying* for Harry to raise his hand, so that he could force him to speak the name of the Avada Kedavra. Alas for Crouch, though, Harry was an ignoramus, and so he was forced to call on Hermione instead; all the same, he *did* go out of his way to draw the class' attention to Harry after his demonstration of the curse. Crouch is just like that. He's a sadist, and he has some...well, let's just say some parental issues.>> "Elkins further suggested that Arthur's weakness to the Imperius curse is genetic, and may have been passed on to Ron, in support of which she offered Ron's prolonged reaction to the Imperius curse when cast by Fake!Moody, and his violent reactions to another kind of mind-control magic - Veelas." "Well, I'm here to tell you that OOP offers us yet another glimpse of this alleged weakness of Ron's. During the fight in the Department of Mysteries, all of the rescue party are injured except for Harry. Neville is hit with a Jelly-Legs curse and his nose is broken. Ginny suffers a broken ankle. Hermione and Luna are knocked out, each by a different curse. Ron is also incapacitated, but unlike every other member of the team, his incapacitation is mental rather than physical. In fact, he is still capable of casting magic spells, and casts one that ends up causing him harm." Abigail smiles widely. "Don't you see? JKR is trying to reinforce the perception of Ron as mentally vulnerable, and reminding us that when one's mind is addled, even a capable wizard can cause destruction to himself or others." "Hardly something we needed a reminder of." George points out as he sets out a bowl of pretzels. "Besides, Ron's condition in the DoM is not a result of lack of volition - he chooses to summon one of the brains." "True, but with as with the Veelas - whose magic is a far cry from an Imperius curse - this is a spell that prevents Ron from acting on his own desires and replaces them with others. The fact that these desires can't be controlled, and are in fact the desires of some infantile version of Ron is secondary. After all, there's no doubt that Ron is attracted to Fleur Delacouer - her controlling magic only causes him to ask her out when his own intelligence might tell him to do otherwise." Abigail grabs a handful of pretzels. "Anyway, I've got some more canon from OOP. Do you remember Harry's trial and the full names listed for everyone?" "Don't tell me." George cuts her off. "You think Percy was named for Dumbledore. People have suggested that already, you know." "I know." Abigail nods. "But they haven't suggested this reason for it. I believe that Dumbledore helped break the Imperius curse on Arthur, or testified that Arthur had been under Imperius when he did whatever he did. In gratitude, Molly and Arthur named their next child after him." "Percy's name is stated as Percy, not Percival." George points out. "And that's also been dealt with already." Abigail replies. "Percy is trying to distance himself from Dumbledore - and his father. He'd hardly like to remind Fudge, or anyone else who might be listening, just how much of a debt he and his family bear to Dumbledore." George cleans glasses in silence for a few minutes. Then he says, in a gentle voice, "They're nice canons, I admit, but hardly something to get worked up about, are they? I mean, OOP didn't really change Imperius!Arthur's status as a theory." Abigail says nothing. "But there's another theory, isn't there?" George insists. "One a lot closer to your heart?" "I don't know what..." Abigail starts to say. "Abigail," George says, "I saw the repairs on the trimaran." Abigail flushes. "It's not completely dead, you know." She says defensively. "Of course not." George agrees quickly. "I just had to... tweak it a little." Abigail offers a brave smile. "I mean, I thought everything was over when we met all those Aurors, and then we saw the Auror department, and no one there seemed to so much as know Arthur's name! The lynchpin of Auror!Arthur is that after the first Voldemort war ended the Auror department was disbanded. There was no further use for them, and Arthur was shunted off to Misuse of Muggle Artifacts. But if there's an active division..." "It does sound rather hopeless." George says. "Oh, but is isn't!" Abigail answers brightly. "All I had to do was make Auror!Arthur an offshoot of Imperius!Arthur. You know I was always a little awkward about admitting that those two theories *had* to go together." "I remember you very nearly scuttled the trimaran once because of that." George answers sardonically. "Yes, well." Abigail smirks, "Now it seems I have no choice in the matter. If Arthur had never been placed under Imperius, there would be no reason for him not be an Auror to this day. Oh, I suppose we might say that Molly had wanted him to quit and take a less dangerous job, but we'd still have to explain the complete non-reaction the other Aurors we meet have to him. What I now suggest happened is that, following his Imperius experience, Arthur was put to pasture. Cindy once asked me how I could believe that the MoM might hire as an Auror a man with a weakness for the Imperius curse. Well, now I agree with her. Once Arthur's weakness was discovered, he was shunted off to another job. The old Aurors don't talk about him. The new Aurors don't know anything about him. He's the skeleton in the closet, the Auror gone sour. And you know what else?" Abigail gives George an evil smile. "I think Percy knows. I think that was one of the things he threw in his father's face when he and Arthur had their falling out, and I think he found out from Fudge." "Careful now." George says. "You don't want a Yellow Flag, do you?" "Oh, come on, George!" Abigail cries. "Arthur can't hear Percy's name without breaking anything! Molly bursts into tears whenever his name is mentioned! There's got to be more to it then the fact that the Weasleys are poor! Elkins herself said that Molly's rush to assure Dumbledore that Arthur's lack of advancement in the Ministry is due to his love of Muggles at the end of GoF is her attempt to forestall the suggestion that it was his Imperius experience that caused his career to stall. What if Arthur Weasley's name is whispered in the corridors of power as a man who can't be trusted completely? What if this is the legacy that Percy has been struggling against? Isn't it entirely typical of Fudge to reveal this dark chapter of Arthur's past to Percy, and isn't Percy's horrified reaction understandable, if not excusable?" Abigail stops to take breath. George starts cleaning glasses again, but stops when he realizes that Abigail is collecting her things. "Where are you going?" "You didn't think I came back just to defend the trimaran, did you?" Abigail asks. "I've got quite a bit to do before I leave again. I plan to visit quite a bit of the 'BAY before I'm done. Wanna come along?" Abigail Imperius!Arthur and Auror!Arthur are rather self-explanatory, but if anyone is interested in reading more about them, you can do so in the following messages. Elkins' original Imperius!Arthur manifesto: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37121 and the extended version http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/40168 And my original Auror!Arthur extrapolation: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37136 and http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/37179 And, of course, Elkins' dedication of the Imperius!Arthur trimaran and the sundry discussions stemming from it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/45290 From eberte at vaeye.com Sun Aug 17 14:47:38 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:47:38 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77655 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > This, IMO, shows that Voldemort has accpeted > that Harry is the one spoken of in the prophecy. The prophecy hangs > together on one line 'the Dark Lord will mark him as equal.' The Dark > Lord *chooses* who is his equal. He thinks that Harry is his equal, > not Neville. Me: I do not believe that Voldemort has heard the part of the prophecy that states that he will mark his foe as his equal. DD indicated that if LV had heard that part he would have been more careful about attacking Harry as a baby. Elle From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 17 15:02:15 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 17 Aug 2003 15:02:15 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1061132535.21.6369.m12@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77656 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, August 17, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 17 16:13:15 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:13:15 -0000 Subject: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77657 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ellejir" wrote: > It strikes me that we (the readers of the series) most likely have > knowledge that the characters in the book *do not* seem to have. > *We* know that the story is going to end in two more years, and, > thus, that the final showdown between Harry and Lord V. is going to > happen during that time frame. (I really doubt that JKR will end the > series with the trio taking their N.E.W.T.S. and throwing their > graduation caps in the air--if that is even done in the U.K Geoff: Just for information. Students in England and Wales take their Advanced Level GCEs at 18. They do not have graduation caps - graduation is something that occurs at the end of their degree courses, probably at 21 or 22 years old at the earliest. From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 16:23:19 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:23:19 -0000 Subject: SHIP Is J.K.Rowling leading us on a wild goose chase In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030817141844.00bb2c50@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77658 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > At 01:12 16-08-03 +0000, Erica wrote: > >--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goodnight_moon5" > >wrote: > > > > > > OK, here's a shorter link to the post Troels tried to send: > > > > > http://www.google.com/groups?selm=e536d9e6.03 07031614.6e5296f6% > > > 40posting.google.com&output=gplain > > Otherwise it should work as > http://tinyurl.com/k9t0 > > >I don't understand how this quote can be considered at all since it > >doesn't exist/is not referenced outside of the alt.fan.harry-potter > >group. Searching the Web (Google) for "Harry wird mit jemandem > >beenden" returns nothing. > > That specific quotation is fortunately denoted as "unverified". > The rest of the quotations are, however, quite all right - whatever > people wish to make of it must be their own business (I didn't post > it because I wanted to prove anything - I just thought it contained > just about everything JKR has said about that matter). > > Troels I thank you for the post. Sure, from my biased R/Hr SHIP POV, it 'confirms' some things for me - but still a large part of the fun of waiting impatiently til the next book comes is all the differences of opinion on these matters. Having JkR give a difinitive answer would kill the party so to speak. JEREMY PAXMAN: Unlikely pairings? Not Hermione and Draco Malfoy or anything like that? JK ROWLING: I don't really want to say as it will ruin all the fan sites. They have such fun with their theories ... and it is fun, it is fun. too right you are JKR -QoE From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sun Aug 17 16:29:10 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:29:10 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77659 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "haloeight042202" wrote: (very snipped) Maybe the voice Harry hears in PoA is Frank telling lily to run. Interesting! One thing I'd like to ask; do you think Lupin might have known anything about this? Maybe it has no relevance but when I read that, I looked that part up (Harry hearing his dad - he assumes - in PoA), and apparently Lupin had something weird in his voice when he replied... (hrrm) This is really loose but I just really like the thought of someone unexpected being involved in that Godric's Hollow event. From silmariel at telefonica.net Sun Aug 17 17:23:04 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:23:04 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308171923.05091.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77660 Kristen: > Where? In which book, prior to the revelation of the Prophecy, > does it say that Harry is the chosen one? Up to that point, all we > know about him is that he's "the boy who lived;" he looks like his > father, has his mother's eyes, is a talented flier, and has a > penchant for rule breaking, and getting into life threatening > situations that ultimately force him to face Voldemort in some > manner. We know that Voldemort and Harry have a "connection" of some > sort, but what that entails is very slowly revealed. Aha, and adding and he is a Griffindor, a Leo (31st July), he is given a legendary sword in order to beat a legendary monster, we knew there was a previous phrophecy from Trelanwney, he did powerful spontaneus magic, he had an extraordinary upbringing (as Neville), the Shat said he would do well in four houses, and more clues I don't remember right know... > I'm an Occum's Razor theory fan. I used it to deduct Harry was 'the one', with all those clues together, it was clear as cristal (for me) that Harry fulfilled the role of a hero, so he was 'the one', wich was the simplest explanation, but I didn't like it, btw, I expect Jo to surprise me. Given there is 'something that is the heart of it all', I hope the phrophecy is not so dull and has a hidden meaning, but I was quite glad whe Neville turned out to be important. silmariel From melclaros at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 17:24:06 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:24:06 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030816192639.00a67000@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77661 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth > > As Flitwick explains in PoA Ch10 (pg 205US): > "...As long as the SECRET-KEEPER refuses to speak, You-Know-Who could > search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and never > find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their sitting room > window!" See this is where I start to get confused. "Nose against the window". So THIS person can see a house just not who is in it. Those who haven't been told the location of the HQ can't see the house. I'm guessing that it all depends on precisly how the secret itself is worded. The Potter's secret only hid THEM since from what Flitwick said it did not neccessarily hide thier HOUSE. The HQ IS a house and so the whole thing becomes hidden. That's the best I can come up with so far. Melpomene From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Sun Aug 17 17:57:57 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 13:57:57 EDT Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? Message-ID: <110.26cf70d4.2c711c25@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77662 (Sorry if I misspelled Leglimency, my mom has OotP, so I can't refer to it) Repeatedly (at least a couple times) somewhere in the first four books Harry wonders if Snape can read minds (I know I don't have page references, but I will find at least one if you need proof), and we find out in OotP that, hey, he can! Knowing that, this passage in PoA caught my eye, "'But then...,' Lupin muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind," (PoA, . 344 paperback, US ver). Perhaps he *was* reading his mind. Not convinced? I knew it wasn't the only time Lupin did that, and, sure enough, I found this, "'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read Harry's mind." (PoA p.187 paperback, US ver) Just food for thought, perhaps we'll see this aspect of Lupin come out in one of the future books. ~RSFJenny From lziner at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 18:31:38 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:31:38 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: <110.26cf70d4.2c711c25@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77663 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > (Sorry if I misspelled Leglimency, my mom has OotP, so I can't refer to it) > > Repeatedly (at least a couple times) somewhere in the first four books Harry > wonders if Snape can read minds (I know I don't have page references, but I > will find at least one if you need proof), and we find out in OotP that, hey, he > can! > > Knowing that, this passage in PoA caught my eye, "'But then...,' Lupin > muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind," > (PoA, . 344 paperback, US ver). Perhaps he *was* reading his mind. Not > convinced? I knew it wasn't the only time Lupin did that, and, sure enough, I found > this, "'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin sharply, as > though he had read Harry's mind." (PoA p.187 paperback, US ver) > > Just food for thought, perhaps we'll see this aspect of Lupin come out in one > of the future books. > > ~RSFJenny Good post. I think you are right. Since Snape tells Harry that LV is skilled at legllimency (spelled wrong too), Harry may have this skill and not be aware of it yet. Wasn't he reading someones mind when he was taking the OWL about history? I'll have to look this up. Anyway, back to Lupin , maybe he will be Harry's new occulmency/legllimency teacher? I would love to see that happen. Lziner From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 18:58:42 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:58:42 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77664 RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > (Sorry if I misspelled Leglimency, my mom has OotP, so I can't refer to it) > > Repeatedly (at least a couple times) somewhere in the first four books Harry > wonders if Snape can read minds (I know I don't have page references, but I > will find at least one if you need proof), and we find out in OotP that, hey, he > can! > > Knowing that, this passage in PoA caught my eye, "'But then...,' Lupin > muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind," > (PoA, . 344 paperback, US ver). Perhaps he *was* reading his mind. Not > convinced? I knew it wasn't the only time Lupin did that, and, sure enough, I found > this, "'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin sharply, as > though he had read Harry's mind." (PoA p.187 paperback, US ver) > > Just food for thought, perhaps we'll see this aspect of Lupin come out in one > of the future books. > > ~RSFJenny Lziner: Good post. I think you are right. Since Snape tells Harry that LV is skilled at legllimency (spelled wrong too), Harry may have this skill and not be aware of it yet. Wasn't he reading someones mind when he was taking the OWL about history? I'll have to look this up. Anyway, back to Lupin , maybe he will be Harry's new occulmency/legllimency teacher? I would love to see that happen. Dan: Quite. I made a post about this a while back--Harry was sitting behind Parvati, I believe, and was at a loss on the essay (was there a practical?). He kept staring at the back of her head and started piecing together bits of the essay. It seemed a bit interesting, even more so, because JKR dedicated 2+ pages to this particular exam--why? I think to demonstrate Harry's legilimency (another skill I believe Voldemort passed to Harry, though not equally strong). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From andie at knownet.net Sun Aug 17 19:04:12 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:04:12 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77665 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: I knew it wasn't the only time Lupin did that, and, > sure enough, I found > > this, "'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin > sharply, as > > though he had read Harry's mind." (PoA p.187 paperback, US ver) > > > > Just food for thought, perhaps we'll see this aspect of Lupin come > out in one > > of the future books. > > > > ~RSFJenny I agree... there is more evidence of Lupin's possible Legilimency skills in OoP also. Chapter Three - The Advance Guard pg. 50 US Edition pg. 49 & 40 UK Edition Harry inclined his head awkwardly at each of them as they were introduced. He wished they would look at something other than him; it was as though he had suddenly been ushered onstage. He also wondered why so mnay of them were there. "A surprising number of people volunteered to come and get you," said Lupin, as though he had reqad Harry's mind; the corners of his mouth twitched slightly. Yes, I definately think there is something about Lupin! Andrea :) (who decided to sign her post with her read name as opposed to the usual sign in name - grindieloe) From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 19:12:13 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: <110.26cf70d4.2c711c25@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030817191213.55380.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77666 Jenny wrote: nowing that, this passage in PoA caught my eye, "'But then...,' Lupin muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he was trying to read his mind," (PoA, . 344 paperback, US ver). Perhaps he *was* reading his mind. Not convinced? I knew it wasn't the only time Lupin did that, and, sure enough, I found this, "'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read Harry's mind." (PoA p.187 paperback, US ver) Just food for thought, perhaps we'll see this aspect of Lupin come out in one of the future books. ~RSFJenny Now Me: The only thing I have agaist this idea, which I believe has validity, is why didn't Remus occlumency to begin with. I'm sure there were places that they could have done this in private (I could be wrong about that though). It seems obvious to me that if Remus was skilled in occulemency they would allow him work with Harry. We know they work well, look at the Patronus. And Lupin is gentle. Which is what Harry needed more than anything ~Melanie ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 19:19:28 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:19:28 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? References: <20030817191213.55380.qmail@web20710.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77667 > Jenny wrote: > > nowing that, this passage in PoA caught my eye, "'But > then...,' Lupin > muttered, staring at Black so intently it seemed he > was trying to read his mind," > (PoA, . 344 paperback, US ver). Perhaps he *was* > reading his mind. Not > convinced? I knew it wasn't the only time Lupin did > that, and, sure enough, I found > this, "'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said > Professor Lupin sharply, as > though he had read Harry's mind." (PoA p.187 > paperback, US ver) > Just food for thought, perhaps we'll see this aspect > of Lupin come out in one > of the future books. > ~RSFJenny > > Melanie: The only thing I have agaist this idea, which > I believe has validity, is why didn't Remus occlumency > to begin with. I'm sure there were places that they > could have done this in private (I could be wrong > about that though). It seems obvious to me that if > Remus was skilled in occulemency they would allow him > work with Harry. We know they work well, look at the > Patronus. And Lupin is gentle. Which is what Harry > needed more than anything > Dan: Closing one's mind and opening another's are two different skills and two different ways of thinking--Lupin very well may be a legilimens, but perhaps does not know anything at all about occlumency. From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Sun Aug 17 19:25:54 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 15:25:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? Message-ID: <145.1750c854.2c7130c2@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77668 Melanie wrote: > why didn't Remus occlumency > to begin with. I'm sure there were places that they > could have done this in private (I could be wrong > about that though). It seems obvious to me that if > Remus was skilled in occulemency they would allow him > work with Harry. now me: I have no idea if he's skilled in Occlumency though. Occlumency is the ability to block one's mind from people entering. Legilimency is the ability to read minds. Just because you can do one doesn't necesssarily mean you can do the other. So without knowing if he can do Occlumency, it's a moot point. Secondly, why have Harry sneak around to meet Lupin when Snape is right there? I know they hate each other, but DD does trust him and the point was for Harry to learn Occlumency. Admittedly, it would be *nicer* for Harry for Lupin to teach him, but logically Snape is the right person if DD himself wouldn't do it, IMO. ~RSFJenny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From profwildflower at mindspring.com Sun Aug 17 19:30:03 2003 From: profwildflower at mindspring.com (whimsyflower) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:30:03 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77669 I appreciated elle's important reminder (ellegir, post 77655, 8.17.03, 10:47 am) that LV does not know the part about the "Dark Lord will mark him as his equal." As I read OoP LV still does not know that part of the prophecy. At this point I think only Dumbledore and Harry know this part (and Sibyll Trelawney, if she remembers). I'd like to shift focus a bit to the part of the prophecy that says, ". . . for neither can live while the other survives." Forgive me for stating the obvious, but since GOF, both Harry and LV seem to be living while the other survives. The fact that they are both living and functioning, and in Harry's case, growing seems to fly in the face of this part of the prophecy. Like many of us, I found other parts of the prophecy confusing, but I can't make sense of this fragment, no matter how hard I try. Whimsyflower From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 19:36:41 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:36:41 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" > wrote: > >> Sorry this post will be so short, but... > > > > Being marked as an equal, could that possibly mean that there is a > > familial connection between Harry and Voldemort? > > > > Since "blood" is so important to Voldemort, wouldn't he think that > > someone in his own bloodline be more powerful than someone who > > wasn't? > > > > > I wonder that too; and maybe that's why he didn't particularly want > to kill Lily. Maybe she is a blood relation, and he preferred not > to kill "one of his own" if he could help it. > > Wanda I was thinking more along the line of Voldemort being a blood relation to James. After all, James and Sirius were considered to be the most talented and strongest wizards at Hogwarts in their time. We know that Voldemort wasn't in Sirius' blood line. He would have been listed on the tapestry. Consider James, though. We don't know anything about the witch who was Voldemort's mother. Perhaps she was James' Aunt? That would explain why Voldemort wasn't so interested in killing Lily. Why should he bother? But he did kill James. Another support for the familial relationship between Harry and Voldemort are their wands. Fawkes gave two feathers only. The one in Voldemort's and the one in Harry's. I think that is whu there was that reaction between the wands. If you remember when Amos used his wand for Prior Incanto in the beginning of GoF there was no great reaction. We know that wizards can use other people's wands. But how well can they use them if there is no prior relationship with a family memeber. Ron's first wand was a hand-me-down. Something to think about. D From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 17 19:40:25 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:40:25 -0000 Subject: Is Draco worse than James Was? (was: Does SSthink of DMas the son he never had) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > > > > Margaret (me): > > The last part first: I don't see Draco coming to any great spiritual > epiphany, he seems to have pretty firmly chosen the dark side at the > end of OoP. Maybe he will, I'm not saying it's impossible. Maybe > Pansy Parkinson will get killed and he'll realize Voldemort is evil > (and not in the warm fuzzy way). He seems to have been raised to > follow the Dark Arts, and he doesn't seem to be rebelling like Sirius > did. James was a basically good person who's ego was the size of > Cleveland. > Cleveland Ohio or County of Cleveland UK? :-) > I don't see 'justification due to humiliation' as being Draco's > reasoning here. The only people present when Harry turned down > Draco's offer of friendship were Ron, Crabbe, and Goyle. Ron > obviously doesn't count in Draco's opinion, as we've seen numerous > times. C&G are too stupid to do any independent resoning of their > own, they just do what they're told. I think it might have been > Harry's holier than thou attitude, saying Draco was the "wrong sort" > of wizard, someone like Draco won't take kindly to someone who > doesn't think he's wonderful. > > Geoff: I think that is an unfair comment about Harry. What was Draco's comment immediately prior to Harry's?: "You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better than others, Potter. You don't want to go making friends with the wrong sort. I can help you there." Now, if that isn't arrogant and holier-than-thou........(Also remember that DM had already been rather dismissive of non-purebloods at Madam Malkin's. I think that HP's answer: "I think I can tell the wrong sort sort for myself, thanks". isn't necessarily directed straight at Draco. It's more a "mind your own business. Go away" sort of response. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 17 08:31:03 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 04:31:03 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy References: Message-ID: <3F3F3D47.6080301@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77672 aamonn2000 wrote: > JO serenadust wrote : >>However, the only time I can think of where they are both in >>trouble for the same thing at the same time is in CoS, and they >>both get detentions for the Flying Ford Anglia escapade, so Harry >>doesn't get any special treatment there. > > > Well... they don't get exactly the same treatment ! Of course, Harry > never asked for spending his time in detention with Lockhard but in > the end, that's what happened. However annoying (I personnally find > him very funny) Lockhard may be, it is still a slightly less painful > punishment than Ron's one. Not in Harry's mind. He asked if he couldn't have the same job as Ron. From profwildflower at mindspring.com Sun Aug 17 20:08:17 2003 From: profwildflower at mindspring.com (whimsyflower) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:08:17 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Legilimency? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77673 In post 77668 RSFJenny wrote," . . .the point was for Harry to learn Occlumency. Admittedly it would be 'nicer' for Harry for Lupin to teach him, but logically Snape is the right person if DD himself wouldn't do it." I think there are a few ways JKR advanced the plot by having Snape begin Occlumency lessons with Harry. First, I'm not sure Harry would have seen his father's and Sirius' tormenting Snape if Harry looked into Lupin's mind. I think this is an important piece of information for Harry. It certainly helped him de- idealize his father and perhaps Sirius, but to a lesser extent than James. Bringing one's parents down off The Pedestal is an important task of adolescence. I think Harry's seeing this memory also gave Harry a chance ti understand Snape's feelings somewhat better. Potentially Harry might develop some of the "subtlety" Snape often points out Harry is lacking if Harry knows more than one side of the story. Another thing the Occlumency lessons do is give Snape a glimpse of Harry's vunerabilities. For better or worse, Snape now has direct knowledge of events during which Harry felt scared and jealous. Whimsyflower From profwildflower at mindspring.com Sun Aug 17 20:08:28 2003 From: profwildflower at mindspring.com (whimsyflower) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:08:28 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77674 I appreciated elle's important reminder (ellegir, post 77655, 8.17.03, 10:47 am) that LV does not know the part about the "Dark Lord will mark him as his equal." As I read OoP LV still does not know that part of the prophecy. At this point I think only Dumbledore and Harry know this part (and Sibyll Trelawney, if she remembers). I'd like to shift focus a bit to the part of the prophecy that says, ". . . for neither can live while the other survives." Forgive me for stating the obvious, but since GOF, both Harry and LV seem to be living while the other survives. The fact that they are both living and functioning, and in Harry's case, growing seems to fly in the face of this part of the prophecy. Like many of us, I found other parts of the prophecy confusing, but I can't make sense of this fragment, no matter how hard I try. Whimsyflower From silmariel at telefonica.net Sun Aug 17 20:21:36 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (silmariel) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:21:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory (kinda long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308172221.36746.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77675 **ESL warning** Kelly: << However, I think it would be interesting to discuss the following: First, assume that Snape IS, in fact, a vampire (no matter how you feel). 1. How is this relevant to the plot and how does this aid to further the development of the books? 2. Does this directly affect the course of the books or the final outcome of book 7? >> The problem here is many people has been discouraged to post because of the non-canon responses, like "vampires can't go out on sunlight", "vampires can't eat", "vampires don't grow", so disscussion level has fallen in a pit. I'm glad your post makes sense, I'll try to answer, but I am a newbie (joined in April) so I wish posters with more experience would join. In GoF(ch36), DD mentions dementors and giants, but Vampires are left appart, as goblins, merfolk, centaurs. Not mentioned. If DD considered them dangerous, maybe a word of caution, or at least a hint during OoP would have been really helpful. If Snape or someone that DD(*) trusts is a vampire, they can be introduced as a surprise faction in the war and so alter the balance of power. She has left enough clues. (*) has anyone ever take a lemon drop except him? are they lemon, really? (this is a totally newbie question, I fear) Wild Theory Alert: Also, it's tradition in literature/movie that a vampire kills his/her family/loved. Is like mating a werewolf. You can do it, but better don't forget the once a month potion, because one error is usually the last. Snape actually killing his wife and son would explain why he sometimes looks like he would like Harry but usually despises him, he resembles the child he should have seen grow, and that James didn't deserve (in his opinion, of course). also, Margaret writes: <> I'd love Lucius to be a vampire, you know. I think vampires *may* be good, just because they sell things for them at Honeydukes, and this gives a 'sweet home' impression to me. But I also think vampires can't be categorized as a whole, as dementors. If they are not born, but former humans, it is up to them to be bad or good. This is my aproach on vampires usually, but vampire society falls out of canon right know, and we should move to ot-chatter. <> One thing is the real world and other is a complex magic one. Your post regards multiple species interrelation, just imagine you are an alien observer of this planet, no one important (is an administrative task to monitorice thousands of planets), so you just try to analize :) silmariel From issyippon at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 10:09:28 2003 From: issyippon at hotmail.com (aint_no_muggle) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 10:09:28 -0000 Subject: JKR and Ron Weasley Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77676 Reading the five books over again in order I get the impression that JKR doesn't like Ron that much. I came to this conclusion mainly because Ron doesn't seem to have that close a relationship with Hagrid compared to the other two in the trio. (People who don't get along with Hagrid tend to be bad such as Malfoy, and Umbridge - however Ron and Hagrid do get along but they just don't seem as strong). Also JKR hasn't given him a girlfriend or admirer yet! Hermy has had Krum (and Neville?) whereas Harry has had Cho and Ginny. What has Ron had? He's had no such plots and it's this also that makes me believe that JKR isn't too keen on Ron. Ron is sometimes compared to Percy (Prefect and Fred & George once said they were ashamed that he was their brother). Perhaps however, it's not that JKR doesn't like Ron but that this is simply how Ron's character is? Fred & George also pick on Ginny but they evidently like her. Also, Ron seems to hide his feelings with dislike (ie- Scrabbers / Pig / Hermy) perhaps he does like Hagrid as much as the other two except finds it harder to express so. But I get the impression that it's Hagrid that doesn't really 'get along' with Ron. Issy From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 11:59:51 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 11:59:51 -0000 Subject: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77677 Donna: >I can appreciate your thinking here. But does that explain >Lockhart? He is not a squib. He can perform magic. He said himself >that he was particularly good at Memory Charms. (Not sure if that >was a quote from the book or the movie or both, as I do not have CoS > handy). It's from the book, Chapter 16: The Chamber of Secrets pg 298 in my copy (US paperback) "Harry, Harry," said Lockhart shaking his head impatiently, "it's not nearly as simple as that. There was work involved. I had to track these people down. Ask them exactly how they managed to do what they did. Then I had to put a Memory Charm on them so they wouldn't remember doing it. If there's one thing I pride myself on, it's my Memory Charms." And on the original topic, aside from the picky need of mine to verify things (at least for my own piece of mind) on the movie/book contamination, I think Gilderoy was pretty awful at most magic because it would involve actual work. Notice, the one thing he mastered is the one that allows him to take all the credit for fantastic acomplishments without doing anything himself. ~Margaret From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 12:09:38 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 12:09:38 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77678 Margaret wrote: >I still think the prophecy *may* mean Neville. No, Voldemort did >not "mark him" in the physical sense, but not all marks are >visible. Perhaps it means psychologically, in a way Voldemort's >responsible for who Neville is, just as he is for who Harry is. >The attack on Harry could be what 'marked' Neville (just go with me >for a sec on this one). ~<(Laurasia)>~ replied: > Okay, so I accept that Neville is *marked* by Voldemort. But he's >not *marked as equal*. > You said it yourself: > >>"The fact that Voldemort does NOT see Neville as his equal could >>cause >>him some problems if he ever comes face to face with Neville in >>combat." > >Voldemort, whilst he has marked Neville in many ways- through the >torturing of his parents etc, none of those ways constitute >being 'marked as equal.' Voldemort does not consider Neville to be >his equal. The prophecy is referring to someone being 'marked as >equal' by the Dark Lord, not someone who is merely marked. Margaret again: I still think my theory holds up. Perhaps by not considering Neville his equal, Voldemort marked him as his equal. (yes, I'm aware that sounds weird) Way back when Voldemort was Tom Riddle, he probably felt ignored and misstreated by pureblood wizards because he was a halfblood himself. The fact that he was Head Boy doesn't mean he couldn't have had a massive infiriority complex (disguised with an equally massive ego) Neville feels the same way (minus the ego). The prophecy doesn't say he will acknowledge that he's marked him as his equal, just that he will mark him. ~Margaret From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Sun Aug 17 14:51:10 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 14:51:10 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77679 Confusinglyso wrote: > >I have checked Lexicon and archives in vain for any clues to who > >was able to tell WW that LV had lost his powers and indeed his > >body in the attack on Harry. ... since a DE would not have let the > >news out so quickly. > {snipped} > > My witness is Frank Longbottom. > {major snip} --- "princesspeaette" wrote: > Marianne's reply: > > >Well, a problem with this theory is that both Hagrid and Sirius > >say that they met at the Potters' house. Hagrid tells us that he > >rescued Harry out of the ruins of the Potters' house and then > >Sirius turns up with his motorcycle. (PoA, US edition, pg. 206.) > ... the Death Eaters and Voldemort ... they liked to advertise their kills The witnesses could have been Death Eaters. - They "bravely" attack in gangs (eg. Quidditch World Cup and the grave yard - GoF; OotP members in the photo killed by DE - OotP, Chap "Molly's Fears"). - Many were drawn to LV when he was strong, but those that wanted to leave (like Sirius's brother - OotP) were killed. What better time to leave, and report to WW, than when LV looses his power? - Lestrange at her trial (GoF) said, "The Dark Lord will rise again, ... he will reward us beyond any of his other supporters! We alone were faithful! We alone tried to find him!" So the 4 tried together were not witnesses, but others may have been. - 3 DE that come to mind are Peter Pettigrew (he was the secret keeper), Karkaroff (who ran and hid - GoF), and Snape (I add Severus because I think he is still more loyal to LV than DD. I want to finish reading other files on Snape first to see if my arguements have already been presented). Others could have also been there. aussie From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 20:36:40 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (linlou43) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:36:40 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77680 whimsyflowerwrote: > I'd like to shift focus a bit to the part of the prophecy that says, ". . . for neither > can live while the other survives." Forgive me for stating the obvious, but > since GOF, both Harry and LV seem to be living while the other survives. The > fact that they are both living and functioning, and in Harry's case, growing > seems to fly in the face of this part of the prophecy. > > Like many of us, I found other parts of the prophecy confusing, but I can't > make sense of this fragment, no matter how hard I try. linlou: I posted an analysis of the prophecy a little over a month ago that addresses this as well as the rest of the prophecy. The list volume has been so high that I'm sure most people probably didn't even see it. I tried to get to it by post number(69589) but yahoo can't seem to find it that way. If any one following this thread is interested, it can be found by using linlou and prophecy as archive search terms, just keep hitting next until you get to it. Try following the thread all the way through. It also addresses the idea of vanquishing but not killing as discussed in the present thread. Hope it helps. -linlou From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sun Aug 17 20:42:43 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:42:43 -0000 Subject: Is Draco worse than James Was? (was: Does SSthink of DMas the son he never had) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77681 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: Margaret wrote: I don't see Draco coming to any great spiritual epiphany, he seems to have pretty firmly chosen the dark side at the end of OoP. Maybe he will, I'm not saying it's impossible. Maybe Pansy Parkinson will get killed and he'll realize Voldemort is evil (and not in the warm fuzzy way). He seems to have been raised to follow the Dark Arts, and he doesn't seem to be rebelling like Sirius did. Marikas response: Yes, Draco is raised to follow the Dark Arts. He keeps walking in his father's footsteps without trying to see things from different perspectives before he makes his choices. He obviously thinks very highly of his father and wants to please him. He knew from the very beginning (when he meets Harry at Madam Malkin's) that he wanted to be in Slytherin, like the rest of his family. He does what's expected from him. He trust his father to know what's best for him, because that's what matters to Draco - what's best for himself. Therefore I believe that if Voldemort turns out to be bad for Lucius, Draco might realize that Voldemort is bad for himself as well. So if something happens to Lucius (besides having to spend some time in Azkaban) and Voldemort is the one responsible, I can see Draco's image of the world (including what's right and wrong) collapsing. Margaret: C&G are too stupid to do any independent resoning of their own, they just do what they're told. Marika: So it seems. But Draco is not stupid, so what on earth is he getting out of this friendship, besides always being backed up in whatever he says? Margaret: About Snape: He may not have had the kind supportive friends that HRH provide for each other, but he did have some friends. Either Lupin or Sirius said in PoA that Snape was part of a gang of Slytherins that all became Death Eaters. It was after their O.W.L. exams, so it was their 5th year. If he was going to have a gang, he probably had some of them by then. Marika: When it comes to Snape and friendship it's a bit tricky. In GoF (p. 460 f) Black says, "Snape [---] was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters." But what does it mean? There are so many possibilities. They might not have been his friends at all, but let him be a part of the gang because of his knowledge. Or, they might have been great friends who supported him all the time. Unfortunately they were not around every time Black and Potter wanted to have some "fun". Or, they were older than him and had already left school when Snape was in his fifth year. Margaret: I don't think James would have tormented someone like Neville. (I have a soft spot for Neville, which may be part of why I'm so anti- Malfoy.) Sirius also said Snape was always following MWPP around trying to get them in trouble, even expelled. Makes Snape sound more like the bully than the victim, doesn't it? Marika: I have a very soft spot for Neville myself, but that doesn't stop me from being empathic with Snape, who certainly doesn't treat Neville the way he should. About Snape following MWPP around - there might have been another reason for him to do so, besides the one Black suggested. And for Snape being a bully or a victim, why not both? I really hope it doesn't sound like I'm supporting Draco, because I'm not. I'm just trying to see things from his point of view, and then he appears to be a mean bully with a big ego - like James Potter. Neither more, nor less :-) Marika From alicepmint at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 17:00:29 2003 From: alicepmint at yahoo.com (alicepmint) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:00:29 -0000 Subject: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77682 ~Margaret wrote: > About Snape: He may not have had the kind supportive friends that HRH provide for each other, but he did have some friends. Either Lupin or Sirius said in PoA that Snape was part of a gang of Slytherins > that all became Death Eaters. It was after their O.W.L. exams, so it was their 5th year. If he was going to have a gang, he probably had some of them by then. <<< We have no canon prove of the timing when he adopted his "friends." For now we can only interpret things according to your take on Snape. It just made much more sense to me that Snape started to join the gang of Slytherin later on in the game, especially AFTER the humiliate incidents (or even after the prank), out of the need for protection and allies. Snape did not seem the type who would make friends unless in some desperation. Based on his "nature" in making himself unpopular, he' just seems to me the loner/anti-social type. There is just no way out of the entire class who took that OWL exam, none of the Slytherin students came over social with Snape (or vice versa). It seemed so natural for him to go on with himself drowning in his exam papers without chit-chating with any of his classmate. The way he wrote his essay longer than anyone and studying his exam paper afterward, are almost obsessed-bookworm/over-achiever/Hermione- ish in a way, and they tend to be friend-less and lonely at one point. Not to mention when Snape was being brutally bullied, no one stood up for him. James and Sirius approached "Snivellus" in such a casual predatory manner (just because Sirius was "bored", and they noticed Snape "like a dog that has scented a rabbit"). They do not see him as some threatening rival who would have known to have a dangerous gang to back him up anyday. James and Sirius did not wonders if "hey Snivelly where are your Dark Arts pals?" or "Maybe we better not go too far in case Snivelly's Dark Arts pals would go nasty on us later (in sarcasm of course)." When Snape said, "you - wait..." Sirius said coolly, "Wait for what? What're you going to do, Snivelly, wipe your nose on us?" Sirius could have OBVIOUSLY said, "Wait for what? That you would run back crying to your lovely Slytherin gangs to tell them how we mistreated you, how they'll come and get us for you?" According to JKR's style, she would put all sort of necessary details in there. She could have, in many different ways, to insert somewhere in the penseive scene to remind us about Snape's "gang", but she did not. Nor did Sirius and Lupin mentioned "but Snape has a dangerous gang of friends too" later when Harry confronted them. Therefore it is clear to me Snape was completely alone and friendless at that point in life. > Sirius said Snape never missed an opportunity to curse/hex/jinx > James, then implied that James was just faster so Snape didn't get > many opportunities. James retaliates in kind, partly because he > doesn't like Snape personally, and partly because "What ever kind > idiot your father was, James always hated the Dark Arts." And no > matter how awful he was to a kid who was obsessed with the DAs (he > became a DE after all) I don't think James would have tormented > someone like Neville. (I have a soft spot for Neville, which may be > part of why I'm so anti-Malfoy.) <<< Remember, James "hexes anyone who annoyed him." When Lily asked, "what's he ever done to you?" James replied with that awlful "because he exists." No matter James was saying this to make himself look cool to Lily, there must be certain level of truth in there. James despised Snape as some low-form of trash, that his existence are either amusement or/and James has the right to disapprove such existence. James exercised his superiority by bullying the weak and the "wrong-kind" (according to him, the Dark Arts oddball kid has no reason to waste space on earth and James probably felt self-righteous in rid of their existence). Since we have little canon details, we can only interpret things based on your view on these characters. Snape "never missed an opportunity to curse/hex/jinx James" could easily be an REACTION of being constantly the tormented target. You hate this popular ego-maniac who kept bullied you, but you can never fight back at him because he is faster and always has his own gang of friends around him. This is what Snape result to do - attack James whenever there's opportunities, to fight back at his tormentor the only way he can. Not to say Snape is justified to do that. But right now from what we have in canon, Snape is shown to be the weak and outnumber one in their rivalry (is it even a rivalry or a mere "bully-victim" relationship? For now I'm seeing the latter according to Lily's reaction). Notice they did not mention Snape "never missed an opportunity to curse/hex/jinx attack Lupin/Sirius/Peter", while Snape is NOT James's only victim (Lily said James "walking down corridors and hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can,"). James hexes a whole lot more other people even if they did nothing as well, just because their mere existence "annoyed" James. We would never know, but what if the Neville-type also annoys James (because James could have been annoyed by the forgetful?) It's just not too far-fetch to think the ego- maniac James *thinks* he could hexes the sense/wit out of a Neville- like. > Sirius also said Snape was always following MWPP around trying to get them in trouble, even expelled. Makes Snape sound more like the bully than the victim, doesn't it? (yes I know it's a very biased source, but it's canon that's never been contradicted.) <<< Now this is where I have to strongly disagree. You see Snape as the bully and MWPP the victim?? Again you can interpret things differently. Why would Snape wanted to get MWPP expelled? Is it because he is a evil mean big bully therefore it is only natural for him get "good people" expelled? Or because he hated his tormentors who made his school life hell so much that he wanted to get his bullies expelled? No one could contradict what was said canon, but the motivation and intention are arguable. Before OOP I didn't bother to think of this situation because MWPP were used to be these nice fun kids, prankster at most in Fred and George level, and Snape was this evil git (potentially bully) whose hobbies was getting Gryfinddor expel. But now knowing the true power dynmaics between MWPP and Snape, I'm not one-sided toward MWPP anymore. MWPP were NOT completely innocent in provoking someone who hated them enough to want to get them expel. I'm not trying to make Snape some poor innocent victim here. He did call Lily a mudblood. He has his Slytherin ways to get back to MWPP which in many of us are "scum-like behaviors" (as if some people seem to believe that "hexing someone in his back" is million times worst and unforgivable than "hanging someone upside down and take off his undies in public"). But you are stretching there in claiming School!Snape is the bully and MWPP the victim. Honestly, with big bully like James, it's no wonder someone would want him out of school for good. > Basically, Draco torments everyone who isn't a Slytherin (except maybe the Ravenclaws, I don't remember him doing anything to them) and they can't ALL have humiliated him at some point! <<< I'm no fan of Draco, but even that sounds weak. Draco torment and humiliate the entire school who are non-Slytherin? I just can't see that, he is just so useless, not nasty nor powerful enough to impact little in the story other than writing stupid lyrics (direct at Ron) and making stupid Support-Cedric/Potter-stinks badges, or to do Umbridge's dirty work, to have such an "honor" really. Alice From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 17:11:47 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:11:47 -0000 Subject: Sirius, Look Sharp (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77683 Here is a filk of the song "Momma, Look Sharp" from the musical 1776, the latest in my continuing effort to filk the entire musical. I dedicate this filk to Caius Marcius, Wendy St. John, and Severus Snape-- oops, I meant Veresna Ussep-- who are engaged in a similar quest. Sirius, Look Sharp SCENE: In the middle of taking his History of Magic O.W.L., Harry has a vision of his godfather in mortal peril. HARRY: Sirius, hey Sirius, in the Ministry, I see you by the power of Occlumency. Sirius, hey Sirius, look sharp, there's LV! Hey, hey, Sirius, look sharp! He's trying to curse you. Oh Padfoot, please run; The room full of spheres is a place you must shun. Once he says, "Crucio!" Padfoot's undone. Hey, hey, Sirius, look sharp! My eyes are wide open, I see down the hall Is that you who's lyin' on the floor in a sprawl? Sirius get out even if you must crawl. Hey, hey, Sirius, look sharp! SIRIUS (IN THE DREAM): I won't betray my Harry I won't do as you please. 'Twill be my place of victory, the Department of Mysteries. HARRY: And then, to my horror, the Curse came from me. Hey, hey, Sirius, look sharp! (Harry realizes that he is looking through the eyes and speaking out of the mouth of LV) -Haggridd From shaman at mac.com Sun Aug 17 20:45:49 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 16:45:49 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rookwood In-Reply-To: <3F3F3BD4.7060100@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77684 On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 04:24 AM, >> Naama: >>> What kind of a name is Algernon anyway?! :-\ >> > eloise_herisson wrote: >> A very respectable, if old-fashioned one. >> >> Jack Worthing's best friend in _The Importance of being >> Ernest_ is Algernon Moncrief. > > Then T.M. Sommers wrote: > Don't be silly; Algy's name was Ernest. Now me (Charlie): Beg to differ, m'lud: JACK's name was Earnest (it was he who was found in the hand-bag); Algy's name was Algernon (or "Bunbury", if you prefer). Charlie From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 20:46:14 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:46:14 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77685 "*Here,* puppy-puppy-puppy!" Derannimer sits on a fallen tree at the edge of the forest, waiting. After a minute's thought, she stands up, waiting. She hates it when dogs try to lick her face, and she doesn't see why she should present an easier target if she can avoid it. She doesn't have to wait for long, in any case. "Puppy!" Sand sprays up and over Derannimer as Prank skuds abruptly into the sand in front of her. The dog promptly bounds up at her, trying to lick her face. ?Yeah, yeah, all right, all *right!* Argh!? Derannimer shoves the slavering beast away from her and down into a sitting position. It looks up at her with hurt brown eyes. ?Suck it up,? says Derannimer firmly. ?I?m not a dog person. Anyway, I *am* going to play with you, so you?re not getting off too badly.? Prank whaps his tail hopefully. Derannimer sighs, breaks a small branch-like-unit off the tree she had been sitting on, and throws it for Prank, who whips after it as though he has never seen a stick before, crashing into the surf. ?Hey! Derannimer!? Derannimer turns to see a figure approaching on the beach. It?s. . . oh. It?s Marina. This will, Derannimer reflects, be a bit awkward. She hasn?t had a conversation with a Sirius Apologist since. . . since. . . since the lives of Sirius Apologists got quite a bit sadder. She notices, uncomfortably, that Marina is still proudly wearing her rather bedraggled red robes. Derannimer averts her eyes slightly as she responds to Marina?s call. ?Ah -- hi, Marina! Um. . . how, um. . . how are you doing?? Marina gives her a withering glare. ?How do you think?? ?Er. . . ? ?I came over here,? says Marina abruptly, ?because I saw that you were gamboling about with that *dog.* I must say, it seems rather tactless, right after poor. . . after poor. . . ? ?Just pretend you said it,? says Derannimer hastily. ?after poor. . . he. . . after he. . . ? ?Just pretend you said that too.? ?Right. Well, anyway.? Marina glares at Derannimer. ?Rather tactless.? ?Um. Yes, well.? Derannimer stands on one foot, then stands on the other, then -- as she is standing in the sand -- almost falls over, then stands on both. She feels rather a bit. . . *uncomfortable.* It *is* an unfortunate time to be bringing up Prank, especially, she reflects, what with the beatings Sirius has been taking lately from various hordes of -- perhaps understandably -- gloating Snapefans. But she had had that idea about Prank. . . and it wasn?t really *that* tactless. . . ?Look, Marina,? says Derannimer firmly. ?It isn?t even something about Si --? ?Ah!? ?-- him. It?s about Snape, actually. Just a little thought I had about the Prank, given what we see in that Pensieve scene.? ?I *knew* it. I?m getting a bit fed-up with all of you Bent Snapefans going after poor. . . . . . just because he was a bit of a git at the age of fifteen. I mean, when you consider what your Severus --? ?Don?t I wish,? interupts Derannimer. ?-- was like, at the age of an awful lot *more* than fifteen, I don?t see why you can?t simply cut -- *him* a br-- ? ?Hey, hey!? Derannimer holds up both hands quickly, as if to ward off Marina, who is, come to think of it, striking a fairly aggressive attitude. ?Hey, I don?t want to get into that one now. I *do,* I think, cut Snape more breaks than I do -- um -- but I don?t want to get into that one now. And anyway, it?s totally irrelevant to my point. *Sirius,*? she says ruthlessly, ignoring the little shudder from Marina, ?*Sirius* is totally irrelevant to my point. My Prank idea has nothing to do with what we learn of Sirius in the Pensieve scene. It has to do with what we learn about James, and Lily, and Snape.? There is a short silence. ?Well,? says Marina finally, ?All right. As long as you're not being rude about. . . What?s the idea?? Derannimer does not immediately reply. When she does, she seems to be speaking rather carefully. ?Now, look, Marina, I know that you -- and, well, that George -- well, and a lot of people really --? ?Derannimer.? ?-- and I am sometimes willing to concede that they have a point in regards to some issues --? ?*Derannimer.*? ?-- and, well, I?m not crazy about the All-Day-Sucker version myself --? ?WHOA! Derannimer, no, not -- whoa whoa whoa.? Derannimer stops and looks apprehensively at Marina. ?Yes, I know,? she says. ?I know you. . . don?t care for Lollipops. But, please, just give me a minute with this one.? She sits back down on the fallen tree -- Prank is still off in the surf, trying to deliver the death blow to the stick -- and, after a moment?s hesitation, Marina shrugs and sits down too. ?Okay,? says Marina, ?What?s your --? she shudders -- ?Lollipops!Prank idea?? ?Well, let me just mention a couple of points here and see if you can guess where I?m going.? ?Okay. . . ? ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> Now, I doubt that I would have even *thought* of this theory a few months ago; for one thing, I would have considered it *highly* unlikely to be confirmed in canon, and for another, we didn't have that wonderful Pensieve scene. But we have it now -- -- and I think that a few of the things we discover there about the relationships between James and Lily, Snape and Lily, and Snape and James, have a possible relevance to the Prank. As of the Pensieve scene -- we have *got* to find another way to refer to that scene, btw -- here are how the relevant relationships between James, Lily, and Snape seem to stand. James wuvs Lily. James hates and abuses Snape. Lily hates James, at least in part for his treatment of Snape. Snape absolutely hates James. Snape does not like Lily intervening on his behalf. How, entirely, he feels about her, we aren't all of us altogether sure. (Hey, this is *Snape.*) As of some time by the end of seventh year -- so, okay, about a two year difference -- there have been some rather interesting developments, on more than one front. James still wuvs Lily. James saved Snape's life. He still, apparently, hates and abuses Snape. But not in front of Lily, but not in front of Lily. Because Lily has softened up to James considerably. Snape has definitely not. Snape seems, particularly, to harbour bitterness and resentment over the fact that James once saved his life. We still don't know entirely how Snape feels about Lily. Oh, and one more thing. James once said, in Snape's hearing, that he, James, would start treating him, Snape, better -- ". . . if you'll go out with me, Evans." ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))?> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> ><))'> "What are you *saying,*" demands Marina of a now slightly smirking Derannimer. "Weeellllll. . . you know, it's not impossible that James's actions in the Prank were motivated partly by a desire to --" "*What!*" "-- to impress his would-be lady-love." "Yes, but --" "And you know, pre-OOP, Pip and Elkins and Captain Cindy and Eileen and I had a conversation about how James found out about the Prank? Because it seems like James didn't find out from -- er? And Pip and the Captain and I thought that James found out from Lily? Well, I must say, *that* idea seems to have held up reasonably well in the aftermath of Hurricane Jo, wouldn't you say?" "No! How would Lily have even *known* about the Prank in the first place?" Derannimer doesn't reply for a minute. She sits there, frowning. Then, at last, she says slowly: "That is a hard one. But, you know, I think I've found a way to work it. "As I said a minute ago, Pip and the Captain and I thought that it was probably Lily who told James. That's not what Elkins and Eileen thought, though. They thought that it was more likely to have been Peter. "Elkins wrote: > part of the social function of the guy in the group of > friends who isn't *quite* in the same league as everyone else > is to serve as admiring audience to tales of the others' exploits. >snip< > I don't find it at all inconceivable that Sirius would have > told Peter that he'd just sent Snape down the tunnel. I don't > find it at all inconceivable that Peter, who does seem to be > prone to seeing the more pessimistic possibilities inherent > in any given situation ("He was taking over everywhere!" > "You're going to kill me too?"), might have twigged to the > godawful potential ramifications of this action long before > Sirius would have. And I don't find it at all inconceivable > that he would have then gone and told James all about it. > Isn't that what Peter does? He's a *rat,* isn't he? A > tale-teller? A betrayer of secrets? And someone who looks to > those he perceives as more powerful than he is to resolve > problems for him. "And, you know, I can agree with *almost* everything in that statement. Given what we see of Peter in OOP, he seems to have been very much the 'admiring audience'; I don't have a problem believing that Sirius told him; I don't have a problem believing that Peter freaked out. I *do,* however, have a problem believing that Peter would have looked to James Potter to resolve this particular problem. Does Peter have any reason to believe that James would try to stop Sirius? That James wouldn't just laugh and heartily concur with Sirius that it was a good joke?" "So you're saying that Peter instead told *Lily*? Did he even *know* her?" "I'm not saying he exectly *told* her; he sort of 'slipped,' and mentioned something in front of her at dinner or in the Common Room, let's say. Peter does seem to have been regarded as an idiot by James and Sirius -- 'forgetting' and mentioning a thing like that might be exactly the sort of thing they'd *expect* Peter to do. And after all, he'd *seen* Lily go so far as to pull her wand on James when she thought he'd gone too far. He might easily have figured that she wouldn't be a bad person to tell." "And he didn't just go to a teacher. . . " "Snitch. 'Forgetting' and dropping a hint to a fellow classmate, even a disliked one, is one thing. Running to a teacher, who had direct power of punishment, would both be seen as a bigger betrayal and be far, far harder to explain away as an accident." "Oh, right." Marina sits, apparently brooding, for a minute, then abruptly says: "Well, why didn't *Lily* go to a teacher? Why in the world would she have gone to *James*? Lily *hated* James, why would she have told him about the Prank?" "Easy. Or -- er, well, possibly not. But Not That Hard, anyway. She didn't *tell* him about the Prank -- she *confronted* him about the Prank! She assumed he was in on it! So she told him how disgusting he was and then he protested that he didn't even know what she was talking about and then he found out about the Prank! And *then*" says Derannimer with relish, "James decides to go after Snape. Possibly he's afraid of expulsion, because Lily says she's going to Dumbledore. Possibly he wants to salvage some hope of at least halfway amicable relations with Lily, and he knows that if Lupin kills Snape because of -- er -- and Lily thinks that he, James, was in on it, that's *it.* Possibly when he was faced with her disgust he had a vague suspicion that Er had gone a bit too far in his fun, and gets the brilliant insight that perhaps something ought to be done about it. "I personally suspect that it's some of all of those three. But for purposes of the current discussion, it's number two that's really important." "Well, Derannimer," says Marina skeptically, "this is all very well and good -- and, yes, I suppose it's *possible* that James learned of the Prank from Lily -- but. . . well, granted, the view of the Marauders that we get from that Pensieve scene was a far more negative one than most posters thought JKR was going for, but even so -- d'you really think she'd go so far as to have James save Snape's life in an effort to. . . what, score points?" "Win the favor of a fair lady," says Derannimer easily. "It doesn't sound *half* so sleazy if you put it in heraldic terms. It's a very Gryffindor thing to do, too, isn't it? "Actually, though," she says, looking around and lowering her voice, "I kind of *prefer* the sleazier sounding version of this theory in some ways. I think. Or maybe I don't. *That,* however, is not the point. In a way, the point is not even whether or not James had any Lily-directed motives at all, ignoble or otherwise. The point is whether or not Snape *thought* he had; as long as you've got that, you can have at least a pared- down version of the theory, although. . . " she hesitates briefly before plunging on, "although I think there's *quite* a good possibilty that James did indeed have impressing Lily in mind when he went to save Snape." "Ah." If Marina had been reading from a script, her line would have "resignedly" written in front of it, just before the colon. "So then Lollipops!Snape thinks that James only saved his life to score points with the girl that Snape himself had the hots for --" "-- and it *worked.*" "And this causes great bitterness and resentment and what-have-you." "Well," says Derannimer reasonably, "it would, wouldn't it?" "Well, yeah, *if* you accept Lollipops!Snape --" "-- which I do --" " -- which I don't." "Well. It's an idea, anyway." "Not a great one, though. Derannimer, I do hope you know that this is all fanfiction?" "No!" says Derannimer, in a strangely shrill voice. "No! I don't know what you're talking about! I'm not. . . ". . . I mean. . . ". . . er. "Oh, very well." She sighs. "You don't suppose I could have dibs, do you?" Derannimer --------- There's an awful lot of good "reading material" to draw on for this topic; I think that if you read these two posts and their respective responses, however, you'll get a lot of it. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/51157 (Pip's original "Harry Has TWO Parents" post) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/51195 (My "Who told James about the Prank?" post) From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 18:05:55 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:05:55 -0000 Subject: Sex and Harry Potter ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77686 Here it is. As time is running, the kids are no longers *kids* anymore. In book 7, Harry will be something like seventeen years-old. As we live in a real world and so does Harry too (at least this is what J.K. Rowling wants us to believe - thanks to the Dursleys !), he will perhaps engage into love-affairs that will lead him to experience intimacy with a woman(1) (I don't really know if such an euphemism sounds odd or not in english, so correct me if it's not an appropriate way of setting things forth). Now my question is : do you think that it should be possible or even desirable for an author like J.K.R. who, to be sure, not only writes for children but also writes for them, to introduce such a topic (and, why not, descriptions - for example his first experience with a woman ; after all we already got the description of what really seems to be his very first kiss) in her future novels ? [Let me precise something : When I talk about descriptions, what I have in mind are not pornographic or crude descriptions, of course, but something that remains to be found out : it seems almost easy for an author who writes for children to write about such a topic as death, but incomparably harder to talk about love, physical love]. I for one think that it would really be interesting. Not interesting in a libidinous sense, but it would be something like a challenge for a writter (how to achieve such a prowess with all the legitimate constraints pertaining to this genre ?), one that Rowling should take up. After all, when she writes her story she also has in mind the fact that, just like Harry, her readers are growing up and her books definitely reflect that (Harry in OoP, for example, behaves like many teenagers actually do - something that many readers found to be a problem for, owing to that, OoP can easily be described as a psychological book which describes and analyses some typical teenagers' attitudes(2)). Thus said, my main point, if I have to summarize it, would be : so far Rowling has gone a bit of the way with her (less and less) young readers. Do you believe she will keep on following her readers' evolution by describing what concerns them - or, at least, for those who began reading HP in 1997, what *will* concern them when the 6th or 7th books are published - because they are bound to experience it. After all, she has already written about such topics as death, murder, betrayal, injustice, greed, cowardice, etc. I don't believe that, as an essential part of love, sexual relationships should be automatically considered as being more obscene - in a book - than those topics (at least, this is MHO). AAm. (1) You can replace *woman* by *man* if you believe that it better fits Harry's taste. (2) See for instance chapter twenty-three ("Chrismas on the Closed Ward"): [Phineas Nigellus's portrait is talking to Harry] "You know" sais Phineas, this is why I loathed being a teacher ! Young people [AAm : notice that this lesson not only applies to Harry but to young people in general - dare I say some of Rowling's readers ? Yes.] are so infernally convinced that they are absolutely right about everything. Has it not occurred to you , my poor puffed- up popinjay, that there might be an excellent reason why the Headmaster of Hogwarts is not confinding every tiny detail of his plan to you ? Have you never paused, while feeling hard-done-by, to note that following Dumbledore's orders has never led you into harm ? No. No, like all young people, you are quite sure that you alone feel and think, you alone recognise danger, you alone are the only one clever enough to realise what the Dark Lord may be planning -" and chapter thirty-seven ("The Lost Prophecy") : [Phyneas Nigellus's portrait is commenting Harry's behaviour] "You see Dumbledore ?" said Phineas Nigellus slyly. "Never try to understand the students. They hate it. They would much rather be tragically misunderstood, wallow in self pity, stew in their own-" "That's enough, Phineas", said Dumbledore. These remarks are very important in order to understand one of the main interests of the book namely, the psychological descriptions it contains. Each time it's the same character who teaches the lesson. This was not done on account of pure luck if you believe me : it rather sounds like what I would call a "narrative intervention" intended for a peculiar category of readers (one that may very well remain deaf to the lesson which it has been inculcated upon, just as Harry did). From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 18:09:06 2003 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:09:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77687 Snape's worst memory is not being humiliated by James. Snape does not seemed suprised by James coming to taunt/harass him, as he attempts to pull out his wand. Rather,I think Snape's worst memory is how he, Snape, treated Lily. Snape never says a dirty word about Harry's mum to Harry. "kempermentor" From mschnall at gmx.net Sun Aug 17 18:17:36 2003 From: mschnall at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:17:36 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77688 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" > wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > My witness is Frank Longbottom. > > [snip] > > I forgot to add that Frank must have been the witness > because he, and his wife, suffered the brutal torture > from the DEs in their attempts to learn the whereabouts > of LV from Frank. It's an interesting theory. I agree that the theory would explain the belief of the Lestrange crew that Frank would know LV's whereabouts. OTOH, another explanation is that they targeted Frank because of his position as an auror. We have pretty strong indications that the Ministry was keeping track of LV at least by the time Harry entered school -- multiple the references to his last known whereabouts being Albania. It would be reasonable to assume that the aurors would have had access to such information. Like Mandy (see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77652 ), I noticed that your theory needs a little supporting theory to explain why the Fidelius charm did not keep Frank away from the house. Mandy's explanation that Pettigrew told Frank *before* telling Voldemort doesn't square with the spirit of the account we heard in the Shrieking Shack: though I don't have PA in front of me, my recollection is that Peter is portrayed as having gone more or less straight to Voldemort with the information. Moreover, if Peter *had* told Frank, then the Ministry would have known that Peter was the secret-keeper, not Sirius, in which case it's hard to believe that Sirius would have ended up in Azkaban for 12 years. Could, perhaps, Frank (or another witness) have followed Voldemort to the residence? And what would such a witness have observed without being privy to the secret of the Potters' location? -- Matt From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 17 20:52:52 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:52:52 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77689 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linlou43" wrote: > > linlou: > > I posted an analysis of the prophecy a little over a month ago > that addresses this as well as the rest of the prophecy. The list > volume has been so high that I'm sure most people probably didn't > even see it. I tried to get to it by post number(69589) but yahoo > can't seem to find it that way. Geoff: Just got it with no problems using the msg# entry. Interesting! From susannahlm at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 20:55:01 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:55:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four OT FORMATTING APOLOGY Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77690 Aaargh. My *formatting!* Look at my *formatting!* I'm really sorry guys -- and I know this is OT, but it was *so awful* -- I think that what happened is, I typed some of this up in Apple Works, and Apple Works does the "smart" quotes; when I pasted it in here those must have been converted to question marks. And my apostrophes, apparently. I'd resend the post, but I'm not sure if I ought to. Fortunately, though, the "smart" quotes -- now the question marks -- don't appear to be in the entire post. Again, apologies. Derannimer, wishing that Yahoo had an Edit function From leef at comcast.net Sun Aug 17 21:05:43 2003 From: leef at comcast.net (marephraim) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:05:43 -0000 Subject: JKR and Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77691 Issy wrote: > Reading the five books over again in order I get the impression that > JKR doesn't like Ron that much. I thought I've read her say in several places that Ron is one of her favourite characters. > I came to this conclusion mainly because Ron doesn't seem to have that > close a relationship with Hagrid compared to the other two in the > trio. (People who don't get along with Hagrid tend to be bad such as > Malfoy, and Umbridge - however Ron and Hagrid do get along but they > just don't seem as strong). > > Also JKR hasn't given him a girlfriend or admirer yet! Hermy has had > Krum (and Neville?) whereas Harry has had Cho and Ginny. What has Ron > had? He's had no such plots and it's this also that makes me believe > that JKR isn't too keen on Ron. This is fodder for all us Ron/Luna Shippers. Refer back to my original series of quotations supporting this most important ship! > Ron is sometimes compared to Percy (Prefect and Fred & George once said > they were ashamed that he was their brother). > > Perhaps however, it's not that JKR doesn't like Ron but that this is > simply how Ron's character is? > Fred & George also pick on Ginny but they evidently like her. > Also, Ron seems to hide his feelings with dislike (ie- Scrabbers / > Pig / Hermy) perhaps he does like Hagrid as much as the other two > except finds it harder to express so. But I get the impression that > it's Hagrid that doesn't really 'get along' with Ron. > > > Issy Also, I agree with all who have noted the clear development of Ron's character in OoP as he finds success and thereby differentiation from Harry's 'faithful side-kick'. The inner strength and maturity we are likely to see in Six and Seven will, I firmly believe (and I am unanimous in that -- a la Mrs Slocum), belay any fears of Ron the betrayer, etc.. Marephraim From sax_maniac81 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 18:31:14 2003 From: sax_maniac81 at hotmail.com (sax_maniac81) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:31:14 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Motorcycle, Licenses (was "Re: Harry's 16th birthday") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77692 Vik: > But wouldn't a flying motorbike be illegal as a charmed muggle thing, like Mr Weasley's car and flying carpets? I'd assume that wizards do need to drive (ministry cars) so they would probably have licenses, and the age for driving would probably be the UK one, which is 17 I think. That's when my brother started learning. > I wonder why the ministry gets away with having charmed cars and > ordinary wizards don't. Such double standards. < < I think that's a good point to make, Vik. When the Weasleys had the Ford Anglia, they weren't supposed to fly it as it would be a violation under the Use of Muggle Artifacts. How does Sirius get away with this? "sax_maniac81" From alastriona at valornet.com Sun Aug 17 18:35:59 2003 From: alastriona at valornet.com (alastrionashouse) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:35:59 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77693 In reply to post 77616: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77616 snip<< > Well... they don't get exactly the same treatment ! Of course, Harry > never asked for spending his time in detention with Lockhard but in > the end, that's what happened. However annoying (I personnally find > him very funny) Lockhard may be, it is still a slightly less painful > punishment than Ron's one. > > AAm. >> end snip I looked this up in my version of COS, and from Harry's pov Ron was not getting a worse punishment: quote: "Filch'll have me there all night," said Ron heavily. "no magic! There must be about a hundred cups in that room. I'm no good at muggle cleaning." "I'd swap anytime," said Harry hollowly. "I've had loads of practice with the Dursleys. Answering Lockhart's fan mail...he'll be a nightmare...." So this instance, at least, is not a valid argument that Harry gets better treatment then Ron when it comes to punishments. Alastriona (who misses Sirius very much) From kempermentor at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 18:38:03 2003 From: kempermentor at yahoo.com (kempermentor) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:38:03 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77694 It would be nice to have Lupin back to teach Harry. But I think it would be even better if Snape continued as this was left unresolved in the book. Snape was violated by Harry and Harry hasn't taken any responsibility/ownership for it. "kempermentor" From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sun Aug 17 21:19:19 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:19:19 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: <145.1750c854.2c7130c2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77695 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > Melanie wrote: > why didn't Remus occlumency to begin with. I'm sure there were > places that they could have done this in private (I could be > wrong about that though). It seems obvious to me that if Remus > was skilled in occulemency they would allow him work with Harry. > > Jenny: > So without knowing if he can do Occlumency, it's a moot point. > Secondly, why have Harry sneak around to meet Lupin when Snape is > right there? I know they hate each other, but DD does trust him > and the point was for Harry to learn Occlumency. Admittedly, it > would be *nicer* for Harry for Lupin to teach him, but logically > Snape is the right person if DD himself wouldn't do it, IMO. Me: You would also think that Harry would be extra motivated to learn occlumency, having Snape as a teacher. As Jenny pointed out, Lupin is nice, and therefor it wouldn't be so intimidating for Harry to share his memories with him. But to have to share them with Snape of all people. If I were Harry, I would work really hard, to learn how to keep him out. Marika From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 17 21:05:23 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 17:05:23 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Defending Ron ? (was: Defending Ron (was Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditc References: Message-ID: <3F3FEE13.9050507@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77696 serenadust wrote: > I really didn't mean to offend you, but I do stand by my statement > about Hermione's "people skills" vs intellect. Yes, she does a good > (possibly "too good") job of explaining other people's behavior and > feelings, which makes her own poor people-handling all the more > amusing. Do you really think she "empathises" with the house-elves, > or the centaurs? I really hoped to see her develop more empathy for > the feelings of others in OOP, but I didn't see any progress in this > area. Hermione's problem with the centaurs was due to naivete, not lack of empathy. She mistakenly assumed that they were noble and intelligent beings, capable of rational thought. It turned out that they were hot-headed, closed-minded, and intolerant, and had absolutely no interest in hearing anything that contradicted their prejudices. It's hard to empathize with bigots. From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 22:01:57 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:01:57 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77697 Elle wrote: > I do not believe that Voldemort has heard the part of the prophecy > that states that he will mark his foe as his equal. DD indicated > that if LV had heard that part he would have been more careful about > attacking Harry as a baby. Me (Laurasia): Yeah- you're right. Dumbledore says that whoever overheard them was expelled from the pub before them. So all Voldemort knows is that there is a boy being born who could defeat him. Voldemort thinks that the baby will be born with the innate gift to defeat him, whereas those who have head the entire prophecy see that the action of attacking the baby causes Harry to have the power to defeat Voldemort. That is- Voldemort thinks that the baby was *born* his equal hence wants to destroy him as soon as possible. We know that Harry *became* Voldemort's equal after Voldemort failed to kill him and tranferred powers, became obsessed with killing him yet failing continually- essentially making Voldemort fear him as a threat. If Voldemort *had* heard the rest of the prophecy the smart thing to do would be never to mark anyone. That is, until he marks someone as equal there is no-one who can defeat him. Of course, then we're left with no books... :-) ~<(Laurasia)>~ From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 22:02:27 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:02:27 -0000 Subject: exchanging WW money for Muggle money In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77698 Of course, the goblins or anyone else from Grigott's may not ever even have to come in contact with Muggles. When Mrs. Weasley sent the letter with all the stamps on it through the Muggle Post, she had to buy the stamps. Where did she get the money to buy those stamps? By exchanging for it at Gringotts. Muggle-born students put the muggle money into the system when they need to purchase supplies; other wizards take it back out when they need to purchase something in the Muggle world - no different than our own exchange system. The bank employee who exchanges your US Dollars for Yen or Lira (or any other money) doesn't need to know anything about the language or cluture of that country. They just need to know the exchange rate. Melinda From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 22:10:28 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:10:28 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore and how he knew about Ginny's possession In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ariadnemajic" wrote: > Hey, how about Ludo Bagman? He has all the wasp imagery around him > with the Wimbourne Wasps and his robe. Don't know what he'd be doing > spying on HRH, unless he's ESE!Bagman, as theorized in Fantastic > Posts....Ariadne What if Bagman is the one who is the one who is scared to return to LV, and Karkaroff is the one who is gone forever? JKR gets to play with our minds, thinking Snape is one of the 3 he's referring to, but I've always thought maybe he wasn't. Yes, he had his troubles with gambling, but maybe he also was afraid to return to LV. Nobody knows where he went, but maybe he's hanging around as the wasp. He could be checking Harry's progress because at least some of his troubles are gone if Harry can indeed defeat LV... or maybe he's laid odds on Harry's defeat of success. Melinda From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 22:13:49 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:13:49 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77700 I (Laurasia) wrote: > > Okay, so I accept that Neville is *marked* by Voldemort. But he's > >not *marked as equal*. Margaret wrote: > I still think my theory holds up. Perhaps by not considering Neville > his equal, Voldemort marked him as his equal. Me (Laursia): The only problem that I have with this is that therefore Voldemort must consider many thousands of wizards his equal. In fact, if Voldemort considers people equal by not considering them equal then every wizard in the world (minus a couple) are equal to him. ;-) Although, I can see how this theory might work. You'll just have to tweak the definition of 'equal' a bit. Equal to what??? Equal in *powers* to the Dark Lord??? We seem to have assumed this. Or is it equal in something else... Damn non-specific prophecies!!! They can mean anything... ~<(Laurasia)>~ From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Sun Aug 17 22:14:01 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:14:01 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77701 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > I was thinking more along the line of Voldemort being a blood > relation to James. > > Consider James, though. We don't know anything about the witch who > was Voldemort's mother. Perhaps she was James' Aunt? That would > explain why Voldemort wasn't so interested in killing Lily. Why > should he bother? But he did kill James. Me: I was thinking maybe Voldemort *was* related to Lily, through his muggle dad's family. That might explain why Petunia is willing to protect Harry even though she loathes him...maybe by staying there, he's protecting her and Dudley? That's v. far fetched, but it crept into my mind anyway. James Redmont From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 22:44:50 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:44:50 -0000 Subject: Metamorphmagus!Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: While he may well have his father's looks and his mother's eyes by genetic inheritance, how do we explain the unruly hair? It was apparently an affectation on his father's part, but has Harry unwittingly chosen to make his hair unruly like his father's all these years, based upon submerged memories of James? me: What if James isn't really his father? What if he was charmed as a baby to always look like James - it would have to be powerful magic, but what if it was imperative to hide who his real father was? A very wild thought... what if Snape was Harry's real father, but because of the prophesy he isn't able to raise his own son. Not that I belive this is really a possibility, but it would have some interesting implications. Melinda From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 17 22:46:31 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:46:31 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77703 Down on the shore, Derranimer was in full flow, as Prank frolicked happily about in the sea. "I *do,* however, have a problem believing that Peter would have looked to James Potter to resolve this particular problem. Does Peter have any reason to believe that James would try to stop Sirius? That James wouldn't just laugh and heartily concur with Sirius that it was a good joke? I'm not saying Peter exactly *told* Lily; he sort of 'slipped,' and mentioned something in front of her at dinner or in the Common Room, let's say. Peter does seem to have been regarded as an idiot by James and Sirius -- 'forgetting' and mentioning a thing like that might be exactly the sort of thing they'd *expect* Peter to do. And after all, he'd *seen* Lily go so far as to pull her wand on James when she thought he'd gone too far. He might easily have figured that she wouldn't be a bad person to tell." Marina sat, apparently brooding, for a minute, then abruptly said: "Well, why didn't *Lily* go to a teacher? Why in the world would she have gone to *James*? Lily *hated* James, why would she have told him about the Prank?" "Easy. Or -- er, well, possibly not. But Not That Hard, anyway. She didn't *tell* him about the Prank -- she *confronted* him about the Prank! She assumed he was in on it! So she told him how disgusting he was and then he protested that he didn't even know what she was talking about and then he found out about the Prank! And *then*" said Derannimer with relish, "James decides to go after Snape." There was a noise between a cough, a sneeze, a pop and a crack behind them. Derranimer and Marina looked round. "Whoa! You frightened me!" said Derranimer to the person who had appeared on the shore. "Sorry," said the newcomer in a muffled kind of way. She began to unwrap twenty-odd scarves from around her head, revealing herself as Kirstini. "Haven't we met before?" asked Derranimer, narrowing her eyes. "Once, I think. In the George. I bored the pants off you about Rita Skeeter and Lucius Malfoy. I'm sorry about that. Anyway, it's about that Prank..." However, Marina had shot up with a look of loathing on her face. "You! Last time I saw you, you made me very angry." "Yerrrs, I'm sorry about that too." Kirstini said, through what was obviously a very blocked nose. "You might want to sit down, because I might be about to do it again. I'd just like to point out first of all that I am really rather ill, and if you hit me, it's murder." "Yeah, yeah, get on with it." growled Marina. "Right. What I was wondering was, have you proposed a timescale for all of this? Sirius brags to Wormtail about what he's done. Wormtail runs all the way back to (let's say for argument's sake) Gryffindor tower, from some unknown point where Sirius was when he told him. He then accidentally yet immediately manages to let slip to Lily that Sirius has told Snape that he'll be able to work out what MWPP are up to every full moon if he goes down to the Whomping Willow and presses a knot on the tree - and that he'll see Lupin, who is a werewolf and transforming right at the moment..." "Yes, we know what the Prank is, thank you." said Derranimer. "Yes, but did Lily? If she wasn't going out with James at this point? It's a lot of information to absorb in a relatively short period of time. Anyway, let's say, for convienience sake, that James is sitting in the armchair next to them at this point, and Lily can just turn around and confront him with what Sirius has done. James them makes a snap descision to run and save Snape, because he'll look a lot better in Lily's eyes if he does so, and runs out of Gryffindor tower, all the way down to the entrance hall, out into the grounds, to the Whomping Willow, where he finds a stick, presses the knot on the trunk, the tree opens, he goes inside and along the passageway. All this time, Snape has obviously been walking very, very slowly along the passageway, and has only just reached - not the Shrieking Shack, but a viewpoint from where he can see into the Shrieking Shack and the werewolf inside it. It takes too long. Snape would have been toast - slightly greasy toast, but toast nonetheless. But the thing is that as a theory it's still very persuasive, especially all that heraldic Gryffindor stuff. So, if we want to believe in it, we have to create more time. At this point I'd just like to remind YOU" - here she gestured at Marina - "that I was aboard the SAD DENIAL that night in a state of mourning too, I was just expressing it differently. I'm here because this nasty little suspicion popped into my head when I was listening in to what Derranimer was saying, and I'd like to be disabused of it, please." She paused, and took a deep breath. "Sirius planned the Prank in advance. Not necessarily to any great degree, but he had had it in mind for a while, just toying it over in his mind - "yeah, wouldn't that greasy little slimeball like to know the *real* reason we disappear at full moon, heh heh heh...", something like that. However, at some point in his mind, it became a little more solid, and he mentioned it to Peter. Not James, because James, for all his Snivellus-cursing, actually had brains, and might well have pointed out all the spoil-sporty dangerous bits. For all that Sirius told Harry that he was acting too responsibly to be like his father after all, at some point over the last year at Hogwarts/ couple of years in the real world, James must have grown up enough to shoulder the responsibility of marriage and a family, and judging from Sirius' behaviour in the Gryffindor fire, Sirius wouldn't have liked this. I'm going to source this turn around as beginning slightly before the Prank, because (am I right in thinking?) James was already Head Boy at this point. So he mentions it to Peter, whose opinions don't really count, and who is stupid enough (Sirius thinks) to think it a good idea. Peter, however, takes the idea a lot more seriously than Sirius thought he would - as we've seen from the werewolf question bit of the Memory, he has a history of doing this. Therefore, he's had a long time to play around in his head with the moral implications of the question - yes, I know that doesn't sound very Wormtail, but bear with me - before he actually overhears Sirius giving Snape the fatal piece of info. He's worked out that going to Lily would be a good bet, maybe he's even laid some groundwork towards approaching her. *Then*, events pan out as Derranimer suggested, and they change the entire dynamic of the group. James and Lily are thrown together, causing Sirius a lot of resentment, which he takes out on Wormtail. Wormtail, subconciously decides that his first experiment in moral behaviour hasn't really been a success, and it's back to the drawing board on that one. Lupin is probably appalled by Sirius' behaviour - it probably hits home to him a lot harder than to the others - and here's the beginning of the seed sown by which they both suspect each other and not Wormtail of being the spy. Sirius is isolated (this is why I don't think James can have known in advance) and resentful for some time, and instead of blaming it all on his own stupidity, cyrstallises it into loathing of Snape, which is how we get to the hospital scene in GoF and the kitchen confrontation in OotP. Sirius didn't *hate* Snape before hand - his life had just never really been of any consequence to him. Now he has a "valid" reason for all the hatred we see - it's more of a hatred of equals than of bully and victim. " Kirstini stopped talking, finally, to scratch Prank lazily behind the ears. "You call yourself a Siriophile!" Marina snorted indignantly. "All I ever catch you doing is abusing him." Kirstini sneezed in agreement. "I know. But like I said,it occured to me, and I was kind of hoping you could disabuse me of it. I don't like all that premeditation, quite frankly. Please, take your time. I haven't got anything to do for a few days - no-one will buy anything from the Shack at the moment as they're afraid I'll give them the flu - and all these ideas are making me feel a bit dirty." She sighed, and turned her six-bobblehatted head to the other two in a rather snotty gesture of appeal. From subrosax at earthlink.net Sun Aug 17 23:01:30 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:01:30 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory (kinda long) In-Reply-To: <200308172221.36746.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, silmariel wrote: > > The problem here is many people has been discouraged to post because of > the non-canon responses, like "vampires can't go out on sunlight", > "vampires can't eat", "vampires don't grow", so disscussion level has > fallen in a pit. I'm glad your post makes sense, I'll try to answer, > but I am a newbie (joined in April) so I wish posters with more > experience would join. I swore I would stay out of this Snape/vampire discussion from now on, but I think I'll step in one more time. I don't want to step on the toes of anyone who subscribes to the Snape/vampire theory. We can all happily agree to disagree on that one. That being said, I don't see whats wrong (or non-canonical) with pointing out that Snape goes out in daylight, eats regular food, etc. (And yes, I'm aware that those points have probably been done to death on this board) JKR can make vampires do whatever she wants in her books, but they aren't a brand-new creature, like dementors for example. All of us have notions of what vampires are, based on folklore or literary descriptions. Would JKR put vampires in her books, then expect the reader to imagine something wildly different from the norm? The apples in the WW could be purple, weigh 50 pounds and have tentacles sticking out, but no one would recognize them as apples. Maybe Snape is a vampire, but I don't see how the reader is supposed to work that out, considering that he isn't described as behaving in a way that an average person would associate with vampires. I may be stupid, but I'm going to continue wallowing in the pit with everyone else who thinks that a vampire who isn't undead and doesn't drink blood, just isn't a vampire. Allyson From fc26det at aol.com Sun Aug 17 23:24:35 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:24:35 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth > > > As Flitwick explains in PoA Ch10 (pg 205US): > > "...As long as the SECRET-KEEPER refuses to speak, You-Know-Who > could > > search the village where Lily and James were staying for years and > never > > find them, not even if he had his nose pressed against their > sitting room > > window!" > > > See this is where I start to get confused. > "Nose against the window". So THIS person can see a house just not > who is in it. Those who haven't been told the location of the HQ > can't see the house. > > > Melpomene Hi Melpomene, The way I took the "Nose against the window" quote to mean was that the people in the house would see someone outside looking in their window but the person outside sees nothing. I am confused by most of this also.... Susan From sylviablundell at aol.com Mon Aug 18 00:01:47 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:01:47 -0000 Subject: Rookwood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77706 If we are going to really, really, nit-pick, Jack's name is ERNEST . Earnest is the quality that it is important to be. (and that is a really uncouth sentence!) From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 00:29:33 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:29:33 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77707 There were so many good thoughts in this thread that I tried to collect them and comment in just one post. I think I've managed to give credit where necessary. If not, my apologies. Wanda wrote (77580): Voldemort could just have *identified* Harry as the one he was looking for. It doesn't necessarily mean that he *made* Harry into his match. Next point, in what way is Harry Voldemort's "equal"? He has nowhere near as much power; even though he's outwitted him 4 times, he himself says that it had as much to do with luck and help as anything. RB responds: How is it that that a teenage boy has been so lucky on numerous occasions against one of the most powerful wizards of the age? Normally luck will only go so far before a certain amount of experience or talent is necessary to continue on. But Harry as a baby, then again as an innocent 11-year old, had no experience. So was it luck or was it talent? Is that potential talent what Voldemort noticed (marked)? Laurasia wrote (77613): The point I'm trying to make here is that Voldemort has marked Harry as equal just by considering him a threat. RB responds: Did Voldemort mark him by considering him a threat? Or by the failure of the killing curse? IMHO, there is something more involved with this failed curse ? whether it's Lily's sacrifice, or something within Harry himself. The prophecy says: "...he will have power..." not "...he will be given power..." Hickengruendler wrote (77625): We don't actually know this, that he hasn't bother Neville. In fact, if I were Voldemort and heard, that a baby could be my downfall, I would try to kill both possible candidates, just to get sure. It is IMO absolutely possible, if not likely, that Voldemort wanted to kill both babies, but that he had the opportunity to kill Harry first, because the Longbottoms had a secret keeper, that wasn't a Death Eater. RB responds: I agree this is the most likely scenario. Didn't Sirius tell Lupin in PoA that Wormtail was made Secret Keeper only a week before the Potters were killed. That would support this idea. On the other hand this is a very simple explanation and we all know how sneaky JKR is . Laurasia wrote (77644): Well, he didn't seem remotely interested in Neville at the Department of Mysteries. Neville wasn't kidnapped and tied to a Gravestone in his fourth year. So maybe Voldemort *wanted* to kill both Harry and Neville when they were one, but he seems to have stopped trying to kill Neville since then. This, IMO, shows that Voldemort has accpeted that Harry is the one spoken of in the prophecy. RB responds: Or by this time he really really wants revenge. And did he even notice Neville at the Ministry? Voldemort didn't show up until Harry had chased Bellatrix into the entrance hall. If he watched the earlier fight he likely thought Neville was just one of the students. Margaret wrote (77638): I still think the prophecy *may* mean Neville. No, Voldemort did not "mark him" in the physical sense, but not all marks are visible. Perhaps it means psychologically, in a way Voldemort's responsible for who Neville is, just as he is for who Harry is. RB responds: There have been a number of posts discussing whether or not Neville is involved in the prophecy (mine included). I think Harry is "the one", mainly because he is the main character, but I think Neville will be involved in some way. Otherwise, Neville's development in OoP makes a nice, but unimportant, side plot. There is so much in this book that sets that stage for books 6 and 7 (JKR supposedly said that she had to made sure all the right clues were included) that there isn't room for anything that isn't necessary. Donna wrote (77645): Since "blood" is so important to Voldemort, wouldn't he think that someone in his own bloodline be more powerful than someone who wasn't? RB responds: There has been a lot of speculation on Harry's family, and JKR is being very cagey about James and Lily. I'm certain there will be some kind of family connection, but IMHO, I don't think we are going to read "...Harry, I *am* your [grand]father..." Margaret wrote (77700): The prophecy doesn't say he will acknowledge that he's marked him as his equal, just that he will mark him. RB responds: Actually, it does. Page 841 (US): "...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." Another thought: do Harry and Neville share the same birthday or was Neville born a day or two before? Ravenclaw Bookworm From erikal at magma.ca Mon Aug 18 01:49:45 2003 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:49:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take Message-ID: <01f501c3652b$00f8a480$c2a31a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 77708 hg wrote: Replace the pronouns similarly in Sachmet's idea, post 75158: "...when I first read that I understood it that Harry and Voldemort will die. According to my dictionary either can mean 'each of two'. So I took it they both die." That would be "...either (both A AND B) must die at the hand of (each) other, for neither (A nor B) can live while the other (one of them) survives..." This could still make sense. now me Erika (Wolfraven): I know the question of the meaning of 'either' has come up before, but I haven't followed all of the prophecy threads, so I just wanted to add my two knuts on this one. Here's what my Concise Oxford Dictionary says about "either" "one or the other of two people or things" But it then also adds "each of two". I was initially confused by this, so I checked the twelve-volume OED to which I also have access. It gives the same two definitions, but also gives a short history of the word which I thought was rather illuminating: "In OE. [Old English] and early ME. [Middle English] the word appears only in its original sense of 'each of two', or as an adv. = 'both' ; but about the beginning of the 14th c. it assumed the disjunctive sense 'one or the other of two' [...] This disjunctive sense has so far prevailed that in mod. Eng. such expressions as 'on either side' = 'on both sides' are felt to be somewhat arch. [archaic], and must often be avoided on account of their ambiguity." It's true that in the expression 'on either side' 'either' means 'both' : There was tension on either side = There was tension on both sides. However, I don't think that 'either' has this sense in any other context, and the dictionary doesn't give any other example of the word having this meaning. In light of this, I don't see how 'either' in the context of the prophecy can meaning anything other than 'one or the other' Erika (Wolfraven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 00:48:41 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:48:41 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77709 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: >> "A surprising number of people volunteered to come and get you," said > Lupin, as though he had reqad Harry's mind; the corners of his mouth > twitched slightly. > > Yes, I definately think there is something about Lupin! > Interesting--this would lend extra credance to his assertion that Snape is a superb Occlumens. Who else would be better to judge the ability of someone attempting to block attempts at "mind reading" (sorry, Severus) than the reader himself? Melpomene--who is really trying to like Lupin again after he dissapointed her so badly in OoP From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 00:56:00 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:56:00 -0000 Subject: JKR and Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim" wrote: > > I thought I've read her say in several places that Ron is one of her > favourite characters. > Here's a JKR quote from a barnes and noble interview in the quick quill quotes: "Now Ron, that is interesting. I didn't mean to base him on anyone, but after I had been writing a bit, I realized he was a lot like a childhood friend of mine from school." Jacquie From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 18 00:58:05 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:58:05 -0000 Subject: Will Draco get out in Time?(Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marika_thestral" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" > wrote: > > Margaret wrote: > I don't see Draco coming to any great spiritual epiphany, he seems to > have pretty firmly chosen the dark side at the end of OoP. Maybe he > will, I'm not saying it's impossible. Maybe Pansy Parkinson will get > killed and he'll realize Voldemort is evil (and not in the warm fuzzy > way). He seems to have been raised to follow the Dark Arts, and he > doesn't seem to be rebelling like Sirius did. > > Marikas response: > Yes, Draco is raised to follow the Dark Arts. He keeps walking in his > father's footsteps without trying to see things from different > perspectives before he makes his choices. He obviously thinks very > highly of his father and wants to please him. He knew from the very > beginning (when he meets Harry at Madam Malkin's) that he wanted to > be in Slytherin, like the rest of his family. He does what's expected > from him. He trust his father to know what's best for him, because > that's what matters to Draco - what's best for himself. Therefore I > believe that if Voldemort turns out to be bad for Lucius, Draco might > realize that Voldemort is bad for himself as well. So if something > happens to Lucius (besides having to spend some time in Azkaban) and > Voldemort is the one responsible, I can see Draco's image of the > world (including what's right and wrong) collapsing. This reminds me of something that Phineas Nigellus says to Harry, and for the life of me, I can't find the passage right now. It was something like "Slytherins will always act to save their own necks." I can see Draco coming to the realization that the path his father has always followed, and that he has emulated as he's grown up, is going to be a dead end. In that sense, I can see him shifting his allegiance to protect himself. I don't see him having an epiphany and deciding that all the pure blood nonsense advocated by Voldemort and Lucius is wrong. I think Draco's more likely to keep those beliefs hidden, and act just enough against them to be able to avoid paying a price for them. We tend to draw parallels between Harry's generation and the generation of his parents. Perhaps Draco is this generations' Regulus. Draco still has the opportunity to turn away from the teachings and beliefs he's grown up with. Whether he ever does so, or whether he does it unwillingly or whether he does a complete about- face in his attitudes remains to be seen. Marianne From fc26det at aol.com Mon Aug 18 01:01:48 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:01:48 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77712 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whimsyflower" wrote: > I appreciated elle's important reminder (ellegir, post 77655, 8.17.03, 10:47 > am) that LV does not know the part about the "Dark Lord will mark him as his > equal." As I read OoP LV still does not know that part of the prophecy. At this > point I think only Dumbledore and Harry know this part (and Sibyll Trelawney, > if she remembers). > > I'd like to shift focus a bit to the part of the prophecy that says, ". . . for neither > can live while the other survives." Forgive me for stating the obvious, but > since GOF, both Harry and LV seem to be living while the other survives. The > fact that they are both living and functioning, and in Harry's case, growing > seems to fly in the face of this part of the prophecy. > > Like many of us, I found other parts of the prophecy confusing, but I can't > make sense of this fragment, no matter how hard I try. > > Whimsyflower Hi, What if the "shall mark him as his equal" is not referring to the same powers? What if it means that Voldemorts evil and hatred are equal to Harrys love and goodness. They can have equal amounts of both. And then the next section of "neither can live while the other survives" would work. Good and Evil constantly battle each other even in real life. Do I make any sense? Susan From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 18 01:05:40 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:05:40 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Motorcycle, Licenses (was "Re: Harry's 16th birthday") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77713 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sax_maniac81" wrote: > > Vik: > > But wouldn't a flying motorbike be illegal as a charmed muggle > thing, like Mr Weasley's car and flying carpets? I'd assume that > wizards do need to drive (ministry cars) so they would probably > have licenses, and the age for driving would probably be the UK one, > which is 17 I think. That's when my brother started learning. > > I wonder why the ministry gets away with having charmed cars and > > ordinary wizards don't. Such double standards. < < > > > I think that's a good point to make, Vik. When the Weasleys had > the Ford Anglia, they weren't supposed to fly it as it would be a > violation under the Use of Muggle Artifacts. How does Sirius get > away with this? > > "sax_maniac81" Perhaps at the time Sirius had his motorbike, it was not a violation of the use of Muggle artifacts. Marianne From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 01:09:36 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:09:36 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: <145.1750c854.2c7130c2@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77714 > Melanie wrote: > > why didn't Remus occlumency > > to begin with. I'm sure there were places that they > > could have done this in private (I could be wrong > > about that though). It seems obvious to me that if > > Remus was skilled in occulemency they would allow him > > work with Harry. > RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > I have no idea if he's skilled in Occlumency though. Occlumency is the > ability to block one's mind from people entering. Legilimency is the ability to > read minds. Just because you can do one doesn't necesssarily mean you can do > the other. > Laura I don't see any convincing evidence that Remus is a legilimens. I think the citations from the text in the original post were turns of phrase by JKR to indicate that Remus is a sensitive man who takes pains to make himself aware of how others are feeling. Although Snape is probably the person who has the best skills to teach Harry Occlumency, he certainly loses no opportunity to provoke and insult him while doing so (well before the pensieve scene). And then he tells Harry to clear his mind and rid himself of emotion! I believe that Snape had good intentions, just because he does what DD tells him to do, but subconsciously he is just delighted to see Harry fail. That can't hurt him with LV either, come to think of it. From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 01:12:01 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:12:01 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" Suck it up,? > ? > >> Oh, and one more thing. > > James once said, in Snape's hearing, that he, James, would start treating him, Snape, > better -- > > ". . . if you'll go out with me, Evans." >> > "What are you *saying,*" demands Marina of a now slightly smirking Derannimer. > > "Weeellllll. . . you know, it's not impossible that James's actions in the Prank were > motivated partly by a desire to --" > > "*What!*" > > "-- to impress his would-be lady-love." > > "Yes, but --" About a mile down the beach Melpomene abrubtly stops scribbling in the sand and starts looking out for Darrin to come charging towards Marina with the same crazed look as he took on when she suggested this a while back.... She seriously considers sending up a warning flare.... From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 18 01:18:41 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:18:41 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77716 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Hi, > What if the "shall mark him as his equal" is not referring to the > same powers? What if it means that Voldemorts evil and hatred are > equal to Harrys love and goodness. They can have equal amounts of > both. And then the next section of "neither can live while the other > survives" would work. Good and Evil constantly battle each other > even in real life. Do I make any sense? > I'd say it's possible, because the prophecy doesn't specify in what way they are equal. It seems to be Voldemort's call, though - *he* is the one who looks at Harry and for some reason says "We are equals" (not literally, of course). What does he see in Harry that equals himself? I'm wondering if it may be their circumstances, because he refers to that in a number of places. I don't have my books, but in the confrontation with Harry in CoS he points out how similar they are, even down to their looks. I think he mentions it again in GoF, when he compares Harry's mother with his own father, and says how they were both Muggles and both died the same way. Perhaps he sees Harry as another Tom Riddle. Wanda From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Mon Aug 18 01:24:46 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:24:46 -0000 Subject: Metamorphmagus!Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" > wrote: > > While he may well have his father's looks and his mother's eyes by > genetic inheritance, how do we explain the unruly hair? It was > apparently an affectation on his father's part, but has Harry > unwittingly chosen to make his hair unruly like his father's all > these years, based upon submerged memories of James? > > me: > > What if James isn't really his father? What if he was charmed as a > baby to always look like James - it would have to be powerful magic, > but what if it was imperative to hide who his real father was? > > A very wild thought... what if Snape was Harry's real father, but > because of the prophesy he isn't able to raise his own son. Not that > I belive this is really a possibility, but it would have some > interesting implications. > > Melinda Me Here: Ummm I wasn't gonna write to this post but, gee I just have to. (vbg) Okay. Yes James did *ruffle* his hair. BUT it was as Harry noticed just like his stood up in the same places. and I quote: pg 640-641 US ed. Professor Flitwick was walking past a boy with untidy black hair...very untidy black hair... Harry moved so quickly that, had he been solid, he would have knocked desks flying. Instead he seemed to slide, dreamlike, across two aisles and up a third. The back of the black-haired boy's head drew nearer and nearer... He was straightenig up now, putting down his quill, pulling his roll of parchment toward him so as to read what he had written.... Harry stopped in front of the desk and gazed down at his fifteen year old father. Excitment exploded in the pit of his stomach: It was as though he was looking at himself but with deliberate mistakes. James's eyes were hazel, his nose was slightly longer than Harry's, and there was no scar on thi forehead, but they had the same thin face, same mouth, same eyebrows. james's hair *stuck up* at the back exactly as Harry's did, his hands could have been Harry's and Harry could tell that when James stood up, they would be within an inch of each other's heights. James yawned hughly and rumpled up his hair, making it even messier than it had *been*. So, James *hair* stood up right where Harry's does. *But* he rumpled up his hair to make it look like he had just got off his broom. Even when Harry is talking to Siris and Lupin, they both laughed because they remember James ruffling his hair to try and look *cool*. Harry found that silly... but James is Harry's father. They are not carbon copies. Just very much alike. But, maybe I'm wrong and Snape the * astard* who treats Harry like dirt is *really* his father. Won't *that* be a HAPPY reunion?(lol) Harry your Mum was a tramp.. and played her *husband* false.?? But *look* you get the greasy haired *git* as a dad ain't life grand! (I'm sorry, I'm laughing as I write this.. ) Okay, I've stoped now. Well, any way.. I'm off to put the dog to bed.. Ta ta.. Tj From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 01:26:20 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:26:20 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: "Sirius planned the Prank in advance. Not necessarily to any great > degree, but he had had it in mind for a while, just toying it over in > his mind - "yeah, wouldn't that greasy little slimeball like to know > the *real* reason we disappear at full moon, heh heh heh...", > something like that. However, at some point in his mind, it became a > little more solid, and he mentioned it to Peter. Not James, because > James, for all his Snivellus-cursing, actually had brains, and might > well have pointed out all the spoil-sporty dangerous bits. For all > that Sirius told Harry that he was acting too responsibly to be like > his father after all, at some point over the last year at Hogwarts/ > couple of years in the real world, James must have grown up enough to > shoulder the responsibility of marriage and a family, and judging > from Sirius' behaviour in the Gryffindor fire, Sirius wouldn't have > liked this. I'm going to source this turn around as beginning > slightly before the Prank, because (am I right in thinking?) James > was already Head Boy at this point. So he mentions it to Peter, whose > opinions don't really count, and who is stupid enough (Sirius thinks) > to think it a good idea. Lupin is probably appalled by Sirius' behaviour - > it probably hits home to him a lot harder than to the others - and > here's the beginning of the seed sown by which they both suspect each > other and not Wormtail of being the spy. Sirius is isolated (this is > why I don't think James can have known in advance) and resentful for > some time, and instead of blaming it all on his own stupidity, > cyrstallises it into loathing of Snape, which is how we get to the > hospital scene in GoF and the kitchen confrontation in OotP. Sirius > didn't *hate* Snape before hand - his life had just never really been > of any consequence to him. Now he has a "valid" reason for all the > hatred we see - it's more of a hatred of equals than of bully and > victim. " Laura: Kirstini, say it isn't so! Your theory is all too convincing, which is very unpleasant for a Sirius fan to admit-especially the part about Lupin. If this appears in books 6 or 7, it might be JKR's way of helping us (and Harry) stop grieving for Sirius. And it would explain why neither Sirius nor Remus figured out that Peter was the spy, given that they knew he was the weakest of the Marauders. But...but... *begins to pace the floor* PS I don't know what the accepted method is of responding to a tbay post in the conventional letter-type format, so I hope I haven't committed a gross breach of etiquette here. From fc26det at aol.com Mon Aug 18 01:33:26 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:33:26 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" > wrote: > > Hi, > > What if the "shall mark him as his equal" is not referring to the > > same powers? What if it means that Voldemorts evil and hatred are > > equal to Harrys love and goodness. They can have equal amounts of > > both. And then the next section of "neither can live while the > other > > survives" would work. Good and Evil constantly battle each other > > even in real life. Do I make any sense? > > > I'd say it's possible, because the prophecy doesn't specify in what > way they are equal. It seems to be Voldemort's call, though - *he* > is the one who looks at Harry and for some reason says "We are > equals" (not literally, of course). What does he see in Harry that > equals himself? I'm wondering if it may be their circumstances, > because he refers to that in a number of places. I don't have my > books, but in the confrontation with Harry in CoS he points out how > similar they are, even down to their looks. I think he mentions it > again in GoF, when he compares Harry's mother with his own father, > and says how they were both Muggles and both died the same way. > Perhaps he sees Harry as another Tom Riddle. > > Wanda Hi Wanda, The sections that you are referring to are about their upbringing and from what I can remember LV never refers to power or type of power. He also refers as you say to their looks and heritage. I think LV is a little baffled by the fact that Harry does not hate the world because he is not a pureblood. I think LV is so filled with hatred and evil that he cannot understand anything about Harry for all the good and love Harry possesses. Susan From fc26det at aol.com Mon Aug 18 01:37:23 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:37:23 -0000 Subject: US vs UK Canadian Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77720 Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between the UK version and the UK Canadian version? Is the Canadian version in French maybe? Thanks, Susan From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 01:49:18 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:49:18 -0000 Subject: Sex and Harry Potter ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote: > > Here it is. As time is running, the kids are no longers *kids* > anymore. In book 7, Harry will be something like seventeen years- old. > As we live in a real world and so does Harry too (at least this is > what J.K. Rowling wants us to believe - thanks to the Dursleys !), he > will perhaps engage into love-affairs that will lead him to > experience intimacy with a woman(1) (I don't really know if such an > euphemism sounds odd or not in english, so correct me if it's not an > appropriate way of setting things forth). > > Now my question is : do you think that it should be possible or even > desirable for an author like J.K.R. who, to be sure, not only writes > for children but also writes for them, to introduce such a topic > (and, why not, descriptions - for example his first experience with a > woman ; after all we already got the description of what really seems > to be his very first kiss) in her future novels ? > After all, she has already written about such topics as death, > murder, betrayal, injustice, greed, cowardice, etc. I don't believe > that, as an essential part of love, sexual relationships should be > automatically considered as being more obscene - in a book - than > those topics (at least, this is MHO). > > AAm. > Laura: Your English is perfect-don't worry! But I hope JKR doesn't write such a scene. It's not because I don't think she couldn't do it sensitively. Nor do I think that it would automatically be dirty. I do think, though, that it doesn't necessarily fit into the list you gave of the other difficult topics the books have already addressed. Part of being an adolescent anywhere is learning to handle the more hurtful and disappointing aspects of human behavior. Betrayal, injustice, greed and cowardice are all on display daily at your local public or private high school. Even death can happen in a teenager's life-grandparents and parents die sometimes, not to mention other students. (Murder, of course, is not so ordinary, thank goodness, but kids do experience divorce, which can get pretty ugly at times. And besides, these are fantasy stories, so the evils the kids face would be larger than those most of us confront in ordinary life.) And what would a portrait of growing up be without elements of sexuality and the ups and downs of romantic relationships? But although I'd venture to say that all teenagers have sexual feelings, not all teenagers have sex before they leave high school. I don't think JKR would need to write an actual sex scene to portray exactly what it feels like to suffer teenage sexual angst. In fact, such a scene might be something of a distraction as the climactic (you should forgive the expression) battle approaches. I just feel that a sex scene would be out of place. And besides, if it were a het sex scene, all the Harry/Draco slashers would go into mourning. Given that I live with one such, I'm not up for it. :-) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 18 01:57:08 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:57:08 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Hi Wanda, > The sections that you are referring to are about their upbringing and > from what I can remember LV never refers to power or type of power. > He also refers as you say to their looks and heritage. Yes, but the prophecy doesn't say that Harry is Voldemort's equal *in power*, either. It just says "equal". "Power" comes in the next phrase, and is not necessarily connected. It seems natural to think that the sentence is talking about power throughout, because we're thinking about it in terms of a "weapon", like Voldemort was - Is Harry strong enough to defeat Voldemort? But I think it might be talking about their "equality" in a different sense. I remembered a line from "Jane Eyre", when Mr. Rochester asks Jane to marry him: "My bride is here, because my equal is here, and my likeness." I don't think the equality spoken of in the prophecy is one of strength or power, but of resemblance. Wanda From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 02:04:08 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:04:08 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77723 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > My witness is Frank Longbottom. The Potters and Longbottoms are > linked by the prophesy, they were all in the original Order of the > Phoenix, and maybe were neighbours in Godric's Hollow. RB responds: I love this theory. Matt wrote (77688): Mandy's explanation that Pettigrew told Frank *before* telling Voldemort doesn't square with the spirit of the account we heard in the Shrieking Shack: though I don't have PA in front of me, my recollection is that Peter is portrayed as having gone more or less straight to Voldemort with the information. RB responds: This is the second time tonight that I've thought of this scene, so I finally found where my daughter left our copy to look it up. PA, p365, US: Sirius tells Harry "I persuaded Lily and James to change to Peter at the last moment, persuaded them to use him as Secret- Keeper instead of me........The night they died, I'd arranged to check on Peter, make sure he was still safe, but when I arrived at his hiding place, he'd gone. I set out for your parents' house straight away. And when I saw their house, destroyed, and their bodies..." On p369, Sirius says, "Lily and James only made you Secret-Keeper because I suggested it. I thought it was the perfect plan...a bluff....Voldemort would be sure to come after me, would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless thing like you...." Does "at the last minute" mean before a Secret-Keeper was designated, or just before the Potters died? I had previously thought that Pettigrew had been the only Keeper, but that the Potters had arranged for one after receiving clear information Voldemort was looking for them. If the prophecy was made just before Harry and Neville were born, why didn't the Potters and Longbottoms designate a Secret-Keeper as soon as Dumbledore told them about it. Harry was 15 months old when his parents were killed. It is unlikely that Pettigrew would have kept the secret for that long. So either Sirius had the Potters *transfer* the designation to Pettigrew, or they had no Secret- Keeper for most of that time. What were they doing for protection for more than a year? As for how Frank Longbottom would know where the Potters were, I would have given my Secret-Keeper a list of people I wanted to know how to find me. Many of the members of the Order were probably on the list, otherwise how would Sirius, Dumbledore and Hagrid know where they were? Ravenclaw Bookworm From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Aug 18 02:18:47 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:18:47 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with Remus?Was: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77724 SNIP > Melpomene--who is really trying to like Lupin again after he > dissapointed her so badly in OoP Why were you disappointed with Lupin in OotP???? Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Aug 18 02:28:14 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:28:14 -0000 Subject: JKR and Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77725 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunachapter10" < lunachapter10 at y...> wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marephraim" wrote: > > > > I thought I've read her say in several places that Ron is one of her > > favourite characters. > > > > Here's a JKR quote from a barnes and noble interview in the quick > quill quotes: > > "Now Ron, that is interesting. I didn't mean to base him on anyone, > but after I had been writing a bit, I realized he was a lot like a > childhood friend of mine from school." > > Jacquie Hmm, just on first impulse upon reading that quote, it seems perhaps, that Ron was spun off as a brainstorm to create a plot device, more of what he may do and who he is to Harry and not for the individual qualities of his own. Whisch, and here goes anothergreat debate, perhaps, but what the hell, may speak towards Ron turning against Harry, turning evil alltogether, or at least biting the dust (as I think was foreshadowed by the sacraficial knight on PS). I am beginnning to think more and more that Best-Friend-Ever!Ron is just not the fate in store for the bloke. He's a mere plot device, noe more so than Evil (Create father figure and giver of hope to Harry and then kill off to guel anger and resentment towards Volde/bad guys). Arya From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 02:30:51 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:30:51 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Pettegrew was not > particularly talented. Witness how he had to work harder to become an animagus. In re-reading the scene in the Shrieking Shack (PoA, chapters 17-19) I noticed something odd about Pettigrew. According to Lupin and Sirius, Pettigrew was not as strong a wizard as themselves and James. Sirius tried to bluff Voldemort by making Pettigrew the Secret-Keeper because he "would never dream they'd use a weak, talentless think like you..." (p369, US). Earlier (p363), Sirius told Lupin and HRH that he cornered Pettigrew on the street, where Pettigrew accused Sirius of betraying Lily and James. "Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street with the wand behind his back". Wouldn't he have needed to point his wand for that strong an attack, especially if he was not a strong wizard? Ravenclaw Bookworm From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Aug 18 02:42:38 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:42:38 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77727 SNIP > > Does "at the last minute" mean before a Secret-Keeper was > designated, or just before the Potters died? I had previously > thought that Pettigrew had been the only Keeper, but that the > Potters had arranged for one after receiving clear information > Voldemort was looking for them. > > If the prophecy was made just before Harry and Neville were born, > why didn't the Potters and Longbottoms designate a Secret-Keeper as > soon as Dumbledore told them about it. Harry was 15 months old when > his parents were killed. It is unlikely that Pettigrew would have > kept the secret for that long. So either Sirius had the Potters > *transfer* the designation to Pettigrew, or they had no Secret- > Keeper for most of that time. What were they doing for protection > for more than a year? SNIP > > Ravenclaw Bookworm In PoA, (US, p205, bottom) Fudge says "And then, barely a week after the Fidelius Charm had been performed--" that Black betrayed them (meaning that was Halloween night when Volde lost his powers). So we have the Potters only going under Fidelius a week before their death. and nearly a year and a half after the prophecy was made. I say that Dumbledore kept it a secret for a long time until such a time as his "network of spies (same chapter of PoA) could inform him that the Potters were in danger. It would be risky but he knows all too well, that it is very tricky business to predict the future (end of PoA) and may have been resolved to keep the knowledge as secret as possible and let fate take its course. Arya From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Mon Aug 18 02:50:30 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:50:30 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77728 SNIP > Earlier (p363), Sirius told Lupin and HRH that he cornered Pettigrew > on the street, where Pettigrew accused Sirius of betraying Lily and > James. "Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street > with the wand behind his back". > > Wouldn't he have needed to point his wand for that strong an attack, > especially if he was not a strong wizard? > > Ravenclaw Bookworm I have a theory on this--- I think Peter had and used Voldemort's wand (Yew, very powerful, etc) and whatever Peter had tried to do, he didn't perhaps get the best results (from another wizard's wand) and was certainly not accustomed or fit to handle such a powerful wand. I think this is a possibility because I see Peter as bening made to go with Voldemort, at least to the house at Godric's Hollow to show him the location and break the charm (yes, I know he could have written it down, but I think Volde would make him come along). Peter then could have witnessed everything and after it was all done, have retreived the wand (maybe he even has other wands-- Lily's and James'???) Also, it is evident that Voldemort has his wand back in GoF, after Peter returned to him and was with him. I am pretty certain that Fallen Voldemort could not possess and wield a wand so someone had to have saved it from the wrecjkage at GH and then given it back to him by the beginning of GoF (when the wand is used to kill Frank Bryce). There are only two options: Crouch and Wormtail (or anyone of several ESE: Snape, etc). As Crouch is dead and gone, I see Wormtail as the most likely candidate. Arya From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 03:08:53 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:08:53 -0000 Subject: Is Draco worse than James Was? (was: Does SSthink of DMas the son he never had) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77729 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marika_thestral" wrote: Yes, Draco is raised to follow the Dark Arts. He keeps walking in his father's footsteps without trying to see things from different perspectives before he makes his choices. He obviously thinks very highly of his father and wants to please him. RB responds: I read the scene where Draco meets Harry on the train in 2 different ways: 1. Harry is the one who defeated Voldemort. As a Death Eater, he might have told Draco to make friends with him to get his "power" on their side. Think of how people would react if "The Boy Who Lived" became buddy-buddy with one of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's followers. 2. Draco knew that Harry had been away from the wizarding world and wouldn't know how to get around in it. He might have planned to become Harry's mentor and gain some of Harry's notoriety. And I don't mean in the sharing-kind of way that Ron does. Remember the Slytherins are known for their cunning and ambition. Margaret: C&G are too stupid to do any independent resoning of their own, they just do what they're told. Marika: So it seems. But Draco is not stupid, so what on earth is he getting out of this friendship, besides always being backed up in whatever he says? RB responds: They are the brawn to his brains. I see Draco leading his gang (Crabbe and Goyle) just like Dudley has Piers, Malcolm and Gordon as his "faithful gang" (OoP, p10 & 12). Not that Dudley is a brain. ) Ravenclaw Bookworm From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 17 22:33:06 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 18:33:06 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? References: Message-ID: <3F4002A2.7090301@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77730 Donna wrote: > > Being marked as an equal, could that possibly mean that there is a > familial connection between Harry and Voldemort? More likely it means that, just as Voldemort is descended from Slytherin, Harry is descended from Gryffindor. This in addition to the transfer of powers from V to H. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 03:28:10 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:28:10 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77731 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > > > Dan: > Closing one's mind and opening another's are two different skills and two > different ways of thinking--Lupin very well may be a legilimens, but perhaps > does not know anything at all about occlumency. Even if Lupin could teach Harry occlumency, how would they explain his presence at Hogwarts? He was forced to leave because of being a werewolf. Snape "accidentally let slip that I am a werewolf this morning at breakfast. This time tomorrow, the owls will start arriving from parents....They will not want a werewolf teaching their children, Harry." (PoA, p423, US) Trying to keep his presence a secret would be chancy, there are always snoopy students around, and those same parents would go crazy if a werewolf were "hanging around" the school. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 03:47:18 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:47:18 -0000 Subject: Sex and Harry Potter ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77732 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote: > > (1) You can replace *woman* by *man* if you believe that it better > fits Harry's taste. I'm curious. Where did the idea that Harry might be gay come from? The only person he seems to notice romantically is Cho. I don't remember any particular description of a male student that would indicate Harry was interested. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 04:05:40 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 04:05:40 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77733 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > SNIP > I think this is a possibility because I see Peter as bening made to go with > Voldemort, at least to the house at Godric's Hollow to show him the location > and break the charm (yes, I know he could have written it down, but I think > Volde would make him come along). Peter then could have witnessed > everything and after it was all done, have retreived the wand (maybe he even > has other wands-- Lily's and James'???) > Also, it is evident that Voldemort has his wand back in GoF, after Peter > returned to him and was with him. I am pretty certain that Fallen Voldemort > could not possess and wield a wand so someone had to have saved it from > the wrecjkage at GH and then given it back to him by the beginning of GoF > (when the wand is used to kill Frank Bryce). There are only two options: > Crouch and Wormtail (or anyone of several ESE: Snape, etc). As Crouch is > dead and gone, I see Wormtail as the most likely candidate. > > Arya A good explanation for how Voldemort got his wand back, too. This could also tie into the theory that Frank Longbottom witnessed the attack on the Potters. (Cross reference: thread starting with #77595 / Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow). If both Pettigrew and Frank Longbottom witnessed the attack, that would explain why the Death Eaters thought the Longbottoms knew where Voldemort was - Pettigrew would have told them he saw Frank there. Possibly Pettigrew hid so that Frank didn't see him, but he saw Frank. Ravenclaw Bookworm From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 04:08:38 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 04:08:38 -0000 Subject: JKR and Ron Weasley In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77734 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: >>>Hmm, just on first impulse upon reading that quote, it seems perhaps, that Ron was spun off as a brainstorm to create a plot device, more of what he may do and who he is to Harry and not for the individual qualities of his own.<<< Me: I think it's important to look at the quote in context: "Q: You said earlier that Harry is the only character who is not based on someone you have known. Did you have friends like Ron and Hermione when you were growing up? JKR: As I said, Hermione is a caricature of me. Now Ron, that is interesting. I didn't mean to base him on anyone, but after I had been writing a bit, I realized he was a lot like a childhood friend of mine from school." Me: I think that the "that is interesting" is referring to the fact that the interviewer specifically mentioned the idea of basing characters on friends and, in the case of Ron, it turned out to be correct. What I'd guess was also interesting to JKR is that she thought Ron, like Harry, was an original character and she realized later that that wasn't entirely so. >>>Arya: I am beginnning to think more and more that Best-Friend-Ever! Ron is just not the fate in store for the bloke. He's a mere plot device, noe more so than Evil (Create father figure and giver of hope to Harry and then kill off to guel anger and resentment towards Volde/bad guys).<<< Me: I think we saw in OOP that Ron is more than Harry's best friend/faithful sidekick. While he's still those things, he's also developing an identity of his own. And I disagree that he's a mere plot device; he's been a major character since Book 1. If he's a plot device, who isn't? CM, who firmly believes that Ron will remain loyal to Harry/The Order. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 18 04:30:42 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:30:42 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Rookwood References: Message-ID: <3F405672.2030203@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77735 Charlie Moody wrote: > On Sunday, August 17, 2003, at 04:24 AM, >>> >>eloise_herisson wrote: >> >>>A very respectable, if old-fashioned one. >>> >>>Jack Worthing's best friend in _The Importance of being >>>Ernest_ is Algernon Moncrief. >> >>Then T.M. Sommers wrote: >>Don't be silly; Algy's name was Ernest. > > Now me (Charlie): > Beg to differ, m'lud: JACK's name was Earnest (it was he who > was found in the hand-bag); Algy's name was Algernon (or "Bunbury", > if you prefer). The Ernest I referred to was Jack's imaginary brother, whom Jack impersonated while in London. When Algy went to Jack's country house, *he* impersonated the imaginary Ernest. Nobody ever impersonated the equally imaginary Bunbury. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 18 03:50:32 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:50:32 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years References: Message-ID: <3F404D08.7090003@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77736 scoutmom21113 wrote: > > Earlier (p363), Sirius told Lupin and HRH that he cornered Pettigrew > on the street, where Pettigrew accused Sirius of betraying Lily and > James. "Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street > with the wand behind his back". > > Wouldn't he have needed to point his wand for that strong an attack, > especially if he was not a strong wizard? The wand had to be pointing somewhere; I doubt Pettigrew really cared exactly where (that is, he didn't need to aim with precision). And it could be that he blew up the street behind him, not in front of him. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 18 03:59:11 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 23:59:11 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That damn Prophecy - an alternative take References: <01f501c3652b$00f8a480$c2a31a40@oemcomputer> Message-ID: <3F404F0F.6080707@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77737 Erika L. wrote: > > It's true that in the expression 'on either side' 'either' means > 'both' : There was tension on either side = There was tension on > both sides. However, I don't think that 'either' has this sense in > any other context, and the dictionary doesn't give any other > example of the word having this meaning. In light of this, I don't > see how 'either' in the context of the prophecy can meaning > anything other than 'one or the other' In describing the stadium at the QWC, Rowling mentions the goals at either end of the field, so she is certainly aware of this usage. I also don't see how the example you cite is significantly different from the wording of the prophecy. I am certain that Rowling chose to use 'either' in the prophecy precisely because it is ambiguous. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Mon Aug 18 04:01:12 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:01:12 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Will Draco get out in Time?(Is Draco worse than James Was?) References: Message-ID: <3F404F88.9040905@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77738 kiricat2001 wrote: > > We tend to draw parallels between Harry's generation and the > generation of his parents. Perhaps Draco is this generations' > Regulus. Draco still has the opportunity to turn away from the > teachings and beliefs he's grown up with. Whether he ever does so, > or whether he does it unwillingly or whether he does a complete about- > face in his attitudes remains to be seen. Draco is more likely his generation's Lucius, who, after all, kept out of Azkaban by claiming he never really meant it, and was under the Imperious curse. From starry765 at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 18 04:57:24 2003 From: starry765 at yahoo.ca (starry765) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 04:57:24 -0000 Subject: US vs UK Canadian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between the UK version > and the UK Canadian version? Is the Canadian version in French maybe? > Thanks, > Susan The only difference I know of is the note at the beginning from JKR commenting on the Canadian editions being printed on recycled paper. -starry765- From jane_starr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 05:08:44 2003 From: jane_starr at yahoo.com (Jane Starr) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:08:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: US vs UK Canadian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818050844.56415.qmail@web13803.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77740 --- S Handel wrote: > Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between > the UK version > and the UK Canadian version? Is the Canadian > version in French maybe? No, it's in English. It is identical to the UK version except for being published by Raincoast instead of Bloomsbury. And the recycled paper thing that someone else mentioned. Same cover as the UK version and like the UK version has no internal illustrations (which is good from my POV). ===== JES Canada __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 05:26:04 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:26:04 -0000 Subject: Is Draco worse than James Was? (was: Does SSthink of DMas the son he never had) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77741 Margaret: >The last part first: I don't see Draco coming to any great >spiritual epiphany, he seems to have pretty firmly chosen the dark >side at the end of OoP. Maybe he will, I'm not saying it's >impossible. Maybe Pansy Parkinson will get killed and he'll realize >Voldemort is evil (and not in the warm fuzzy way). He seems to have >been raised to follow the Dark Arts, and he doesn't seem to be >rebelling like Sirius did. James was a basically good person who's >ego was the size of Cleveland. Geoff: > Cleveland Ohio or County of Cleveland UK? :-) Well originally I meant OH (I'm in Ohio, the county didn't leap to mind) Margaret: >I don't see 'justification due to humiliation' as being Draco's >reasoning here. The only people present when Harry turned down >Draco's offer of friendship were Ron, Crabbe, and Goyle. Ron >obviously doesn't count in Draco's opinion, as we've seen numerous >times. C&G are too stupid to do any independent resoning of their >own, they just do what they're told. I think it might have been >Harry's holier than thou attitude, saying Draco was the "wrong >sort" of wizard, someone like Draco won't take kindly to someone who >doesn't think he's wonderful. > Geoff: >I think that is an unfair comment about Harry. What was Draco's >comment immediately prior to Harry's?: > >"You'll soon find out some wizarding families are much better than >others, Potter. You don't want to go making friends with the wrong >sort. I can help you there." > >Now, if that isn't arrogant and holier-than-thou........(Also >remember that DM had already been rather dismissive of non- >purebloods at Madam Malkin's. > >I think that HP's answer: > >"I think I can tell the wrong sort sort for myself, thanks". > >isn't necessarily directed straight at Draco. It's more a "mind your >own business. Go away" sort of response. Margaret again: I didn't mean it as a comment on Harry's behavior. I was trying to be a bit sympathetic to Draco's (possible) position. I think Harry was perfectly justified (maybe even restrained) in his response (especially after that "the Weasleys all have red hair and more children than they can afford" comment). I think Draco probably has some serious problems dealing with rejection. He's been taught that purity of blood is everything, and can't believe that someone else would think that was meaningless. The description of Harry was from Draco's perspective. ~Margaret From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 05:53:27 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 05:53:27 -0000 Subject: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77742 > ~Margaret wrote: >About Snape: He may not have had the kind supportive friends that >HRH provide for each other, but he did have some friends. Either >Lupin or Sirius said in PoA that Snape was part of a gang of >Slytherins that all became Death Eaters. It was after their O.W.L. >exams, so it was their 5th year. If he was going to have a gang, >he probably had some of them by then. <<< Alice replied: >We have no canon prove of the timing when he adopted his "friends." >For now we can only interpret things according to your take on Snape. >It seemed so natural for him to go on with himself drowning >in his exam papers without chit-chating with any of his classmate. >The way he wrote his essay longer than anyone and studying his exam >paper afterward, are almost obsessed-bookworm/over-achiever/Hermione- >ish in a way, and they tend to be friend-less and lonely at one >point. >>>>>>>>> Margaret again: Snape was concentrating on his papers at the time. Perhaps his "friends" (and I use the term loosely) were in another year, and were in class. >Not to mention when Snape was being brutally bullied, no one >stood up for him. James and Sirius approached "Snivellus" in such a >casual predatory manner (just because Sirius was "bored", and they >noticed Snape "like a dog that has scented a rabbit"). They do not >see him as some threatening rival who would have known to have a >dangerous gang to back him up anyday. >Nor did Sirius and Lupin mentioned "but Snape has a dangerous >gang of friends too" later when Harry confronted them. Therefore it >is clear to me Snape was completely alone and friendless at that >point in life. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Margaret again: Or they just didn't think much of his friends. They were pretty overconfident in their own abilities at this point in life, they did become unregistered Animagi and run around with a very dangerous werewolf every month, because they assumed they could control it. They probably assumed they could beat anybody in a duel. > Margaret: > > Sirius also said Snape was always following MWPP around trying > to get them in trouble, even expelled. Makes Snape sound more > like the bully than the victim, doesn't it? (yes I know it's a > very biased source, but it's canon that's never been contradicted.) <<< > Alice replied: >Now this is where I have to strongly disagree. You see Snape as the >bully and MWPP the victim?? Again you can interpret things >differently. Why would Snape wanted to get MWPP expelled? Is it >because he is a evil mean big bully therefore it is only natural for >him get "good people" expelled? Or because he hated his tormentors >who made his school life hell so much that he wanted to get his >bullies expelled? No one could contradict what was said canon, but >the motivation and intention are arguable. > >Before OOP I didn't bother to think of this situation because MWPP >were used to be these nice fun kids, prankster at most in Fred and >George level, and Snape was this evil git (potentially bully) whose >hobbies was getting Gryfinddor expel. But now knowing the true power >dynmaics between MWPP and Snape, I'm not one-sided toward MWPP >anymore. MWPP were NOT completely innocent in provoking someone who >hated them enough to want to get them expeled. I'm not trying to >make Snape some poor innocent victim here. He did call Lily a >mudblood. He has his Slytherin ways to get back to MWPP which in >many of us are "scum-like behaviors" (as if some people seem to >believe that "hexing someone in his back" is million times worst and >unforgivable than "hanging someone upside down and take off his >undies in public"). But you are stretching there in claiming School! >Snape is the bully and MWPP the victim. Honestly, with big bully >like James, it's no wonder someone would want him out of school for >good. Me again: I NEVER meant that Snape was the bully in this situation, just that he displayed a lot of less than honourable tendencies. And I completely see where Snape was probably coming from (I wasn't popular myself in high school) and that MWPP (or at least PP) were awful to people they thought weren't as important as them (which was pretty much everybody as far as I can tell) I was simply trying to point out that Snape was not the defenseless victim some people were painting him to be. I think Sirius and James were both majorly at fault here. The only person who came out of that smelling like a rose is Lily. ~Margaret, still firmly in the pro-Snape camp, and was just trying to see the other side From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 06:04:47 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:04:47 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77743 Laurasia wrote: >Okay, so I accept that Neville is *marked* by Voldemort. But he's >not *marked as equal*. >Margaret wrote: >I still think my theory holds up. Perhaps by not considering >Neville his equal, Voldemort marked him as his equal. (yes, I knw that sounds weird) Laursia replied: >The only problem that I have with this is that therefore Voldemort >must consider many thousands of wizards his equal. In fact, if >Voldemort considers people equal by not considering them equal then >every wizard in the world (minus a couple) are equal to him. ;-) > >Although, I can see how this theory might work. You'll just have to >tweak the definition of 'equal' a bit. Equal to what??? Equal in >*powers* to the Dark Lord??? We seem to have assumed this. Or is it >equal in something else... Damn non-specific prophecies!!! They can >mean anything... Margaret (me) again: Ah yes, but they don't fulfill the rest of prophecy now do they? Those nameless other wizards didn't have parents that thrice defied Voldemort (DD says that's very unusual, I believe) and weren't born at the end of July 1980. And I don't what *equal* means (damn non-specific proph...oh you said that already didn't you? ;-) Maybe it means they'll always play to a draw in checkers, who knows? ~Margaret , who had a dream last night in which she was holding a copy of: Book 6 Neville Longbottom and The Git at the Department of Mysteries Who Mislabels Things Does that mean I spend waaaaaay too much time thinking about that damn prophecy? ;-) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Sun Aug 17 19:17:00 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:17:00 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77744 wrote: > Voldemort believes > that Harry has the power to defeat him. He is scared of him. He > considers Harry to be a real threat. This is why he went out and > tried to kill him- nearly causing his own destruction. This is why > he's obsessed with laying hands on him in GoF and finding out the > prophecy in OoP. > > The point I'm trying to make here is that Voldemort has marked Harry > as equal just by considering him a threat. ... > Harry mightn't necessarily be Voldemort's equal in power (Harry > definitely doesn't think he is)- BUT Voldemort thinks that he is. > This is the whole crux of the prohpecy- it *could* have been either > Harry or Neville, but at the second when Voldemort chose Harry as > thought- 'Harry Potter is the one of whom this prophecy speaks. He > has the power to defeat me. I must defeat him.' he is 'marking him as > equal.' He is saying that Harry is a threat. And in doing so he > passes on his own powers to him. So, you see, before Harry was > attacked he wasn't Voldemort's equal at all. It is Voldemort's attack > on him that transfers the powers, links Voldemort and Harry together > via the scar and makes Harry become more powerful than he would have > been. This is a very fascinating take on this--I like it very much. What you've said about Voldy marking Harry as his equal simply by BELIEVING him to be a threat is very insightful. My only quibble is with this one portion: **So, you see, before Harry was attacked he wasn't Voldemort's equal at all. It is Voldemort's attack on him that transfers the powers, links Voldemort and Harry together via the scar and makes Harry become more powerful than he would have been.** If it's true that Harry wasn't powerful before this, then how did he deflect the AK curse? Surely not *just* by the power of love from his mother's sacrificing herself? I actually believe Harry WAS the more powerful of the two possibilities [he & Neville, that is], and that he IS gifted beyond ordinary wizards, and that gift came BEFORE Voldy did anything *to* him. The two wizards Voldy fears--DD and HP. Perhaps there is something about those two--something like pure GOODNESS? Something even "savior-like"? I realize that crosses over into the "world of religion" to say that, but it has occurred to me.... Maybe that goes too far, but I don't think it goes too far to suggest that Harry was powerful from the get-go, from *before* Voldy's attack. Susan From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 19:29:14 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:29:14 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77745 Melanie said > > ...why didn't Remus occlumency > > to begin with. I'm sure there were places that they > > could have done this in private (I could be wrong > > about that though). It seems obvious to me that if > > Remus was skilled in occulemency they would allow him > > work with Harry. We know they work well, look at the > > Patronus. And Lupin is gentle. Which is what Harry > > needed more than anything > Dan: > Closing one's mind and opening another's are two different skills and two > different ways of thinking--Lupin very well may be a legilimens, but perhaps > does not know anything at all about occlumency. I think it's more than that cos' Lupin somewhere in the book (I'll try to find where as soon as possible) tells Harry to study occlumensy with Snape because the latter is (I quote him from my memory) "a superb occlumens". How come he knows that ? Did he practice with him ? At least there seems to be many indications that should lead to aknowledge that there is definitely something here. From matt at bostoncoop.net Sun Aug 17 19:33:35 2003 From: matt at bostoncoop.net (mgborus) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:33:35 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77746 So I'm new to this list, so I may be asking about something that's already been discussed. But how does Harry still have the Marauder's Map in OotP? In GoF, he gives it to the fake Moody when Moody saves him from being caught by Snape on the stairs the night that Harry is listening to the triwizard egg. Moody had obviously seent that the map revealed him to be Barty Crouch Jr. Then, after Harry has returned from his encounter with Voldemort and Dumbledore is interrogating Crouch, he mentions the map. Dumbledore replies quickly, "Map? What map is this?" After the map has caused this much trouble and is somewhere among Crouch's posessions, ti seems unilkely that Dumbledore would have returned it to Harry. It also seems unlikely that Harry, traumatized by Cedric's death and Voldemort's return, would have snuck back into Moody's office to get it. It certainly isn't mentioned anywhere. So how does Harry have the map? -matt From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 19:44:58 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 19:44:58 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77747 Ha! Ha! Found it. Here it is : [Lupin is speaking to Harry] "Look after yourself", said Lupin, shaking hands all round and reaching Harry last. "And listen..." he lowered his voice while the rest of them exchanged last-minute goodbyes with Tonks, "Harry, I know you don't like Snape, but he is a *superb Occlumens* and we all - Sirius included - want you to learn to protect yourself, so work hard, all right ?" (OoP, chapter twenty-four). Maybe Lupin is only skilled in Leglimency and tried to use it with/against Snape who happened to be a master Occlumens ? Or the two of them practiced together ? What do you think ? AAm. From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 17 21:33:43 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 21:33:43 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77748 I wrote : > > Well... they don't get exactly the same treatment ! Of course, > > Harry never asked for spending his time in detention with > > Lockhard but in the end, that's what happened. However annoying > > (I personnally find him very funny) Lockhard may be, it is still > > a slightly less painful punishment than Ron's one. Alastriona (who misses Sirius very much) wrote : > I looked this up in my version of COS, and from Harry's pov Ron was > not getting a worse punishment: > quote: "Filch'll have me there all night," said Ron heavily. "no > magic! There must be about a hundred cups in that room. I'm no > good at muggle cleaning." > "I'd swap anytime," said Harry hollowly. "I've had loads of > practice with the Dursleys. Answering Lockhart's fan mail...he'll > be a nightmare...." > So this instance, at least, is not a valid argument that Harry gets > better treatment then Ron when it comes to punishments. I have already replied to identical comments but let's add something else. a) first of all, I never denied the fact that from Harry's POV his punishement is hell compared to Ron's. But we were not discussing Harry's feelings but... Ron's! And you aknowledged it when you quoted CoS, Ron quite prefers Harry's punishement. b) Of course Harry hates Lockhard (and Lockhard sees Harry as a potential rival). But what is Harry doing with him during his detention ? He answers Lockhard fan mail, something that he could almost do without Lockhard (once again, see GoF end of chapter 17). In fact, the two of them are famous wizards having problems of famous wizards (Ohhh! That hurts! I won't be able to keep smiling any longer !). c) Now, concerning Ron, what is he doing ? A job that seems a lot more degrading from his own POV. Plus, you have to keep in mind that he quite despises whatever deals with muggles, so "muggle cleaning", as he calls it, is even worse than *simple* cleaning. See you. AAm. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 06:19:53 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:19:53 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77749 > Margaret wrote (77700): >The prophecy doesn't say he will acknowledge that he's marked him as >his equal, just that he will mark him. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm responds: >Actually, it does. Page 841 (US): "...and the Dark Lord will mark >him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not..." > >Another thought: do Harry and Neville share the same birthday or was >Neville born a day or two before? Margaret again: Actually that proves my point. It says: "He will mark him as his equal...." Does it say 'he will mark and acknowledge him as his equal'? No. Just that he will mark him. "He will have power the Dark Lord knows not.." Well Voldemort doesn't even seem to care that Neville exists, it's possible he's even forgotten there were two possible boys. That seems like "knows not" to me. Of course I very much doubt that Neville is the key (it would just be dirty pool a this point to say "Whoops, it was supposed to be Neville all along") but I argue it is still Possible. Perhaps the fact that 2 people can technically fulfill the prophecy will be Voldemort's undoing. Maybe friendship is "the power the Dark Lord knows not". ~Margaret From mschnall at gmx.net Sun Aug 17 20:56:46 2003 From: mschnall at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:56:46 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Taught Occlumency (was: Is Lupin skilled at Legilimency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77750 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whimsyflower" wrote: > > I think there are a few ways JKR advanced the > plot by having Snape begin Occlumency lessons > with Harry. First, I'm not sure Harry would > have seen his father's and Sirius' tormenting > Snape if Harry looked into Lupin's mind. I > think this is an important piece of information > for Harry. > . . . . . > Another thing the Occlumency lessons do is give > Snape a glimpse of Harry's vunerabilities. For > better or worse, Snape now has direct knowledge > of events during which Harry felt scared and > jealous. I agree: Those lessons just *have* to be critical in developing the relationship between Harry and Snape, even though neither of them manages to develop much resulting empathy in OP. Harry is eventually going to find it impossible to blame Snape for hating James. And Snape now knows (and will eventually process the fact) that Harry is *not* really so much like James, particularly the parts of James' character and background that Snape most hated. Harry hasn't been the star all his life, as James seems to have been (indeed, Harry has much more frequently been the target of discrimination, bullying and derision) and he has never much enjoyed star treatment when he does get it. Along those particular lines, Harry arguably has more in common with Snape than with James. From stasiaskasia at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 00:54:34 2003 From: stasiaskasia at yahoo.com (stasiaskasia) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 00:54:34 -0000 Subject: Snape as a Vampire Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77751 Allyson wrote: "JKR can make vampires do whatever she wants in her books, but they aren't a brand-new creature, like dementors for example. All of us have notions of what vampires are, based on folklore or literary descriptions. Would JKR put vampires in her books, then expect the reader to imagine something wildly different from the norm? The apples in the WW could be purple, weigh 50 pounds and have tentacles sticking out, but no one would recognize them as apples." This is strictly my opinion, but I agree with Allyson. It's my observation to date that, when JKR introduces a character of her creation she seems to, rightly I think, decide what it will be and how it will act. When she is working with a "known" fantasy type of being, it pretty much conducts itself according to Hoyle. Pure giants are antisocial types even if they are Hagrid's half brother; with Lupin, other than the device of providing a potion that will make his affliction manageable but not cured, he is a werwolf as we know its behavior from folklore. If he forgets the potion, he transforms and is dangerous. Centaurs and merpeople I am not all that familiar with in folklore, but I would be interested to read any insights from others. Also my opinion, I think that having Snape as a vampire would take away from his character. Much of what he does might then be attributed to what he is and not the choices he makes. To me, he is more interesting and complex if he acts from choice. Kasia From dumbledore818 at aol.com Mon Aug 18 01:09:48 2003 From: dumbledore818 at aol.com (biglou4171) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 01:09:48 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Motorcycle, Licenses (was "Re: Harry's 16th birthday") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77752 > Vik: > > But wouldn't a flying motorbike be illegal as a charmed muggle > thing, like Mr Weasley's car and flying carpets?... < wrote: I think that's a good point to make, Vik. When the Weasleys had > the Ford Anglia, they weren't supposed to fly it as it would be a > violation under the Use of Muggle Artifacts. How does Sirius get > away with this? I don't think that Sirius's bike is a charmed muggle object. It's propbably a magical artifact that takes part of its form from a muggle device, much like the Hogwarts Express or Knight Bus. If it is an enchanted rather that conjured device then its very heavily enchanted as it apparently can't be seen or heard by muggles and changes size to fit its rider be it half giant or tall wizard. From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Aug 18 01:11:02 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 20:11:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' Motorcycle, Licenses (was "Re: Harry's 16th birthday") References: Message-ID: <3F4027A6.4060005@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77753 kiricat2001 wrote: > Perhaps at the time Sirius had his motorbike, it was not a violation > of the use of Muggle artifacts. > > Marianne > Or he could care less about the laws? Not all the characters are law abiding, you know and the MOM is not all knowing/all powerful and can't catch all the scofflaws. Not that they would even try to as the MOM is pretty corupt itself. Jazmyn From soleta_nf at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 18 02:13:41 2003 From: soleta_nf at yahoo.ca (=?iso-8859-1?q?House=20Yolande?=) Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2003 22:13:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: US vs UK Canadian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818021341.87689.qmail@web40408.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77754 S Handel wrote: > Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between the UK version and the UK Canadian version? Is the Canadian version in French maybe? The Canadian version is identical to the British version (text and cover art), except it's printed on different paper. Here's a link to the Canadian publishers if you want to go straight to the source. http://www.raincoast.com/harrypotter/library.html As for the French editions in Canada, the site says that Gallimard Jeunesse of France distribute their edition in Canada, and that the French edition will be available in Canada on December 3, 2003. And this marks my first post to this list. I'm glad I could contribute something. I'm very much a newbie - I just started the first HP book three weeks ago and finished all five two weeks later. Now I'm experiencing a strange yearning I've never felt before - to re-read the series again (if I ever do re-read books, it's after months or years have past). And now I get excited with every HP merchandise I see (I love the Bertie Botts Every Flavour Beans - especially when my little brother eats the vomit-flavoured ones! ;) And a little bit about me: I'm Canadian (could you guess?), 26 years old, just completed my MA (in history) and currently job hunting in my hometown of Fredericton, New Brunswick. This list looks very interesting, though I may have to set it to no mail tomorrow so I can focus on job hunting (il y a beaucoups beaucoups des messages)*! Okay, have a good night everyone! Yolande * just some French to spice things up. It literally reads: "There are many, many messages!" --------------------------------- L?che-vitrine ou l?che-?cran ? Yahoo! Magasinage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From urghiggi at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 02:49:31 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:49:31 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whimsyflower" < profwildflower at m...> wrote: > I'd like to shift focus a bit to the part of the prophecy that says, ". . . for neither > can live while the other survives." Forgive me for stating the obvious, but > since GOF, both Harry and LV seem to be living while the other survives. The > fact that they are both living and functioning, and in Harry's case, growing > seems to fly in the face of this part of the prophecy. > > Like many of us, I found other parts of the prophecy confusing, but I can't > make sense of this fragment, no matter how hard I try. > I'm with you. Obviously it is not literally true; ergo it can't be meant literally. Perhaps JKR is using "live'' in a more figurative sense -- that neither of them can live their destined life as long as the other one is surviving. LV can't proceed with his evil plans freely with Harry out there causing a threat to his future, and interfering with his plots on a regular basis. And Harry can't live any kind of fulfilling existence with the threat of LV out there -- worse than the mere threat, also the oppressive physical and psychological manifestations of his intimate link with LV. This interp is the only way i can make sense of that section of the prophecy. urghiggi in Chgo From alesiamalec at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 03:44:06 2003 From: alesiamalec at yahoo.com (finnavarran) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 03:44:06 -0000 Subject: US vs UK Canadian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between the UK version > and the UK Canadian version? Is the Canadian version in French maybe? > Thanks, > Susan Hi I live in Canada and as I understand it, the UK and the Canadian versions are identical (including the cover art), except perhaps for a message written by JKR referencing the use of 100% post-consumer paper for the production of the Canadian edition. And the only differences between the UK and the US versions are the cover art and chapter illustrations (Canadian version has no illustrations). A friend is bringing me a US edition later this week so I can make accurate comparisons when it gets here. Hope this helps From nanadetoronto at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 04:18:38 2003 From: nanadetoronto at hotmail.com (catimini15) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 04:18:38 -0000 Subject: US vs UK Canadian In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77757 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Can anyone tell me if there is a difference between the UK version > and the UK Canadian version? Is the Canadian version in French maybe? > Thanks, > Susan The Canadian version (Raincoast Books Publisher)is the same as the UK version. The French version will be released in December by les ?ditions Gallimard from France. The Canadian francophone readers will have this version. Voil?! Nadine From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 06:39:12 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:39:12 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Motorcycle, Licenses (was "Re: Harry's 16th birthday") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77758 > > Vik: >But wouldn't a flying motorbike be illegal as a charmed muggle >thing, like Mr Weasley's car and flying carpets? I'd assume that >wizards do need to drive (ministry cars) so they would probably >have licenses, and the age for driving would probably be the UK >one, which is 17 I think. That's when my brother started learning. >I wonder why the ministry gets away with having charmed cars and >ordinary wizards don't. Such double standards. < < sax_maniac81: >I think that's a good point to make, Vik. When the Weasleys had >the Ford Anglia, they weren't supposed to fly it as it would be a >violation under the Use of Muggle Artifacts. How does Sirius get >away with this? Marianne: >Perhaps at the time Sirius had his motorbike, it was not a violation >of the use of Muggle artifacts. Margaret (me): I don't think it was at the time. In CoS chapter 3 'The Burrow' Mrs. Weasly says: "Yes Aurthur, cars. Imagine a wizard buying a rusty old car and telling his wife all he wanted to do with it was take it apart and see how it worked, while really he was enchanting it to FLY." "Well dear, I think you'll find that he would be quite within the law to do that, even if- er- he maybe would have done better to , uh, tell his wife the truth...there's a loophole in the law, you'll find....As long as he wasn;t intending to fly the car, the fact that the car could fly wouldn't --" "Aurthur Weasly you made sure there was a loophole when you wrote that law!" >From this we know Mr Weasly wrote the law (probably recently or Ron would have mentioned a flying car in SS/PS when he told Harry his father was interested in muggle things) but defenitly after the attack on Harry as an infant. It says somewhere (I've looked in vain, but I'm sure I read in a book) that Aurthur was a junior officer in the Department of Magical Law Enforcement when Pettigrew framed Sirius and killed all those muggles. And he wouldn't have been drafting muggle-artifact laws from that department. ~Margaret From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 06:47:53 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 06:47:53 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter In-Reply-To: <140.1753f876.2c6fef44@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77759 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, eloiseherisson at a... wrote: > While I'm about it.... > I'd been wondering whether, and if so how much, the text had been > Americanised this time. For example, what is the tailor's dummy in the window of Purge > and Dowse (the shop fronting St Mungo's, Ch. 22) wearing in the US edition? In > the UK edition it's a pinafore dress. Has that been changed to jumper as > Harry's jumper was changed to sweater in PS/SS? > > ~Eloise No, in the US it's a "green nylon pinafore dress," so I guess no change. A pinafore dress to us is not quite like a jumper, but is a two-piece dress, where the ruffly, sleevless overdress allows the sleeved, slightly longer under one to show -- is that what it is in the UK? What *I* wondered about is the scene where Harry has been sent to see Prof. McGonagall with a pink note from Umbridge, and McG says: "Have a biscuit, Potter." "Have -- what?" "Have a biscuit," she repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin of /cookies/ lying on top of one of the piles of papers on her desk. "And sit down." [emphasis mine, quote from ch. 12] What does the UK edition say where US has "cookies"? Biscuits again, or Ginger Newts? That passage made me smile, anyway, (aside from McG letting a little affection show) because it seemed like Scholastic wanted to make sure we knew what a "biscuit" was. Annemehr whose first thrill of joy (after actually cracking OoP) came in the second paragraph, in which "...the soles of his TRAINERS were peeling away from the uppers." From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 07:01:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:01:50 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77760 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mgborus" wrote: > > ...edited... > > After the map has caused this much trouble and is somewhere among > Crouch's posessions, ti seems unilkely that Dumbledore would have > returned it to Harry. It also seems unlikely that Harry, traumatized > by Cedric's death and Voldemort's return, would have snuck back into > Moody's office to get it. It certainly isn't mentioned anywhere. > > So how does Harry have the map? > > -matt bboy_mn: Well, you are right, what happens to the map never appears on the printed page, but the map does belong to Harry, and it's not likely something Dumbledore would take away from Harry. Certainly, it's something most students would not be allowed to have but Harry is a special case. The problems, conflicts, and unexpected circumstances that befall Harry's life are usual, and I can't see Dumbledore making them any more difficult than they all ready are by taking the map away. So... short version... Dumbledore returned the map to Harry before he left school, but it happened 'off page'. So how does Harry get his Broomstick back at the end of OotP? We don't see it happen that I can remember, but I think it is safe to say that Harry does have it. Again, there is only just so much room on the printed page, so certain things have to occur 'off page'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 07:20:26 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:20:26 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: <3625886058.20030816203610@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Saturday, August 16, 2003, 7:16:14 PM, Erica wrote: > > > Do you suppose there is anything 'lurking' in the 'You > > always get away with stuff'? > > Maybe the truth? ;) > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne No, NOT the truth, not in this case, anyway. Harry could no more help blowing up Aunt Marge, as hard as he tried, than Ron could ever help his ears turning red when he's upset. Annemehr thinking it's about time the "defenders of Harry" came up with a clever name or acronym or something to identify themselves -- how about D'OH! That's Defenders Of Harry with pointless punctuation... maybe someone should come up with a better idea! From nansense at cts.com Mon Aug 18 07:21:47 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:21:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77762 aamonn2000" : > > (1) You can replace *woman* by *man* if you believe that it better > > fits Harry's taste. > Ravenclaw Bookworm: > I'm curious. Where did the idea that Harry might be gay come from? > The only person he seems to notice romantically is Cho. I don't > remember any particular description of a male student that would > indicate Harry was interested. now, madeyemood: When I first joined the list a few weeks ago we were discussing a gay vibe in tOotP. (For example, the intensity of Sirius's feelings for James, Professor Grubbly-Plank, Tonks) Some appalled listees responded that if anybody was gay or gayish because of certain observations made by some of the other listmembers, then every character in the book may as well be gay. I don't remember any suggestions from the more interested, pro-gay discussion people that implied that Harry was gay. And of course I could have easily missed a mention (in the book or on the group!) ~madeyemood From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 07:21:51 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:21:51 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77763 AAm wrote: > Ha! Ha! Found it. Here it is : > [Lupin is speaking to Harry] > "Look after yourself", said Lupin, shaking hands all round and > reaching Harry last. "And listen..." he lowered his voice while the > rest of them exchanged last-minute goodbyes with Tonks, "Harry, I > know you don't like Snape, but he is a *superb Occlumens* and we > all - Sirius included - want you to learn to protect yourself, so > work hard, all right ?" > (OoP, chapter twenty-four). > Maybe Lupin is only skilled in Leglimency and tried to use it > with/against Snape who happened to be a master Occlumens ? Or the > two of them practiced together ? What do you think ? I think it's very unlikely that Snape and Lupin did -anything- together. I think it's more likely that Lupin and Sirius voiced concerns about Snape teaching Harry (I'm sure Lupin insisted they make sure Snape didn't know they did that of course), and Dumbledore assured them that Snape was a *superb occlumens*. ~Margaret From RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net Mon Aug 18 07:31:50 2003 From: RavenclawBlack at ColinGregoryPalmer.net (Ravenclaw Black) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:31:50 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' Motorcycle, Licenses (was "Re: Harry's 16th birthday") In-Reply-To: <3F4027A6.4060005@pacificpuma.com> References: <3F4027A6.4060005@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <3F4080E6.8080202@ColinGregoryPalmer.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77764 jazmyn wrote: > > > kiricat2001 wrote: > > > Perhaps at the time Sirius had his motorbike, it was not a violation > > of the use of Muggle artifacts. > > > > Marianne > > > > > Or he could care less about the laws? Not all the characters are law > abiding, you know and the MOM is not all knowing/all powerful and can't > catch all the scofflaws. > > Not that they would even try to as the MOM is pretty corupt itself. > > Jazmyn > Or his family's wealth and reputation could let him get away with it. -Ravenclaw Black -- Colin's American Weblog in London [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 07:35:46 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:35:46 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77765 Erica wrote: >Do you suppose there is anything 'lurking' in the 'You always get >away with stuff'? > >Susanne: Maybe the truth? ;) >Annemehr: >No, NOT the truth, not in this case, anyway. Harry could no more >help blowing up Aunt Marge, as hard as he tried, than Ron could ever >help his ears turning red when he's upset. > > Annemehr >Thinking it's about time the "defenders of Harry" came up with a >clever name or acronym or something to identify themselves -- how >about D'OH! That's Defenders Of Harry with pointless punctuation... >maybe someone should come up with a better idea! Margaret (me): I like D'OH, but it could be a bit more specific...how about: HARRY FAN? Harry's Advocates Regarding Ron's Yearning For Appreciative Noteriaty ? If you don't like it, toss it. No biggie. ~Margaret, who does NOT believe Ron will EVER turn traitor From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 07:54:49 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:54:49 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77766 > I'm with you. Obviously it is not literally true; ergo it can't be meant literally. > Perhaps JKR is using "live'' in a more figurative sense -- that neither of them > can live their destined life as long as the other one is surviving. LV can't > proceed with his evil plans freely with Harry out there causing a threat to his > future, and interfering with his plots on a regular basis. And Harry can't live > any kind of fulfilling existence with the threat of LV out there -- worse than the > mere threat, also the oppressive physical and psychological manifestations of > his intimate link with LV. > > This interp is the only way i can make sense of that section of the prophecy. > > urghiggi in Chgo I'm not taking it literally either. It could perhaps illude to the fact that neither can live as leaders - LV of the dark side Harry of the good. As Harry isn't yet of age, then he isn't yet a leader/able to rally others. Once he can, both sides can't 'live' in unison...am I rambling? Ffi From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 07:54:56 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:54:56 -0000 Subject: Metamorphmagus!Harry? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77767 Tj: >and I quote: >pg 640-641 US ed. Professor Flitwick was walking past a boy with >untidy black hair...very untidy black hair... Harry moved so quickly >that, had he been solid, he would have knocked desks flying. Instead >he seemed to slide, dreamlike, across two aisles and up a third. This gives me an opportunity to post an observation I though of during my 5th reread of OoP. Does anyone else notice that the way Harry moves to get to his father: over 2, up 1, is the same move that a knight makes on a chessboard? It seems very appropriate given Harry's "saving people thing" (to quote Hermione). Just a random thought ~Margaret From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 08:19:35 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:19:35 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77768 > > Annemehr > >Thinking it's about time the "defenders of Harry" came up with a > >clever name or acronym or something to identify themselves -- how > >about D'OH! That's Defenders Of Harry with pointless punctuation... > >maybe someone should come up with a better idea! > > > > Margaret (me): > > I like D'OH, but it could be a bit more specific...how about: > HARRY FAN? > > Harry's Advocates Regarding Ron's Yearning > For Appreciative Noteriaty ? > > If you don't like it, toss it. No biggie. > > ~Margaret, who does NOT believe Ron will EVER turn traitor It's a good acronym, but I was thinking about something *less* specific, actually -- we want to defend Harry against all unjustified attacks on the list, such as "he's too moody" or "he's mean to Cho," anything. After all, Ron has C.R.A.B. (Cut Ron A Break); Snape has Snapologists; and... er... ::whispers:: Percy has a much reduced P.I.N.E. (that's Percy Is Not Evil), and ::very quietly:: Sirius had the (unexpected) Sirius Apologists... Annemehr always willing to defend Molly Weasley too, come to think of it... From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 08:29:54 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:29:54 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77769 > > > Annemehr > > >Thinking it's about time the "defenders of Harry" came up with a > > >clever name or acronym or something to identify themselves -- how > > >about D'OH! That's Defenders Of Harry with pointless > punctuation... > > >maybe someone should come up with a better idea! > > > > > > > > Margaret: > > > > I like D'OH, but it could be a bit more specific...how about: > > HARRY FAN? > > > > Harry's Advocates Regarding Ron's Yearning > > For Appreciative Noteriaty ? > > > > If you don't like it, toss it. No biggie. > > > > ~Margaret, who does NOT believe Ron will EVER turn traitor > Annemehr: > It's a good acronym, but I was thinking about something *less* > specific, actually -- we want to defend Harry against all > unjustified attacks on the list, such as "he's too moody" or "he's > mean to Cho," anything. > > After all, Ron has C.R.A.B. (Cut Ron A Break); > Snape has Snapologists; > and... > > er... > > ::whispers:: Percy has a much reduced P.I.N.E. (that's Percy Is Not > Evil), and > ::very quietly:: Sirius had the (unexpected) Sirius Apologists... > > Annemehr > always willing to defend Molly Weasley too, come to think of it... Margaret again: Good point, I forgot about C.R.A.B. (which is odd I think that a lot) Maybe we need something saying we'll defend all Weasleys too (except Percy until he shows real remorse for sending back his mum's sweater!) Oh well, I'l try and think of something. ~Margaret who's ever so relieved Mr. Weasly didn't die From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Aug 18 09:19:18 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:19:18 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > > The two wizards Voldy fears--DD and HP. Perhaps there is something > about those two--something like pure GOODNESS? Something > even "savior-like"? I realize that crosses over into the "world of > religion" to say that, but it has occurred to me.... Maybe that goes > too far, but I don't think it goes too far to suggest that Harry was > powerful from the get-go, from *before* Voldy's attack. > > Susan I don't think Voldy fears Harry, not yet at least; certainly he didn't act as if he did in the MoM fight. No, Voldy considers him an unmitigated pest who keeps getting in the way and somehow avoids all attempts to swat him. A bit like Sylvester and Tweety Pie. Kneasy From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Aug 18 09:42:47 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:42:47 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <120134297606.20030818024247@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77771 Hi, Monday, August 18, 2003, 12:20:26 AM, annemehr wrote: > No, NOT the truth, not in this case, anyway. Harry could no more > help blowing up Aunt Marge, as hard as he tried, than Ron could ever > help his ears turning red when he's upset. I (and Ron, I think) was referring to the punishment for said happenings :) If it had been another character using underage magic in this manner, they would most likely not have gotten away without any repercussions. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 18 10:11:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:11:09 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77772 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > > Hi Wanda, > The sections that you are referring to are about their upbringing and > from what I can remember LV never refers to power or type of power. > He also refers as you say to their looks and heritage. I think LV is > a little baffled by the fact that Harry does not hate the world > because he is not a pureblood. I think LV is so filled with hatred > and evil that he cannot understand anything about Harry for all the > good and love Harry possesses. > Susan Geoff: A bit OT, but this reminds me of a section in the Lord of the Rings - it's in the third volume but I haven't tracked it at the moment. In it, Gandalf points out that Sauron (Another Dark Lord of course!) is looking for signs of dissent among the leaders of the Free Peoples to show that they are falling out over the Ring and he expects a new Lord to arise to challenge him. Gandalf remarks that the evil nature of Sauron cannot comprehend the possibility that his opponents may want to destroy the Ring rather than allow it to fall to evil use again.This is much the same idea that you have proposed above. From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 18 10:22:00 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:22:00 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: <3F404D08.7090003@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > scoutmom21113 wrote: > > > > Earlier (p363), Sirius told Lupin and HRH that he cornered Pettigrew > > on the street, where Pettigrew accused Sirius of betraying Lily and > > James. "Then, before I could curse him, he blew apart the street > > with the wand behind his back". > > > > Wouldn't he have needed to point his wand for that strong an attack, > > especially if he was not a strong wizard? > TMS: > The wand had to be pointing somewhere; I doubt Pettigrew really cared > exactly where (that is, he didn't need to aim with precision). And it > could be that he blew up the street behind him, not in front of him. Geoff: This has always been my interpretation. Plus the fact that PP tries (and succeeds) in dropping the blame onto Sirius, it wouldn't be quite so easy if he was waving a wand around at the time the event happened. From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 18 10:24:50 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:24:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory (kinda long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308181224.50183.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77774 Allyson: << That being said, I don't see whats wrong (or non-canonical) with pointing out that Snape goes out in daylight, eats regular food, etc. (And yes, I'm aware that those points have probably been done to death on this board)>> Dracula goes out in daylight, if we are basing on wide-known references. Isn't he vampire enough for you? Eats regular food: You, as a human, can eat a leather shoe. It won't do much good, but you can. And allowing vampires can't eat, they can fool the eye. If you are good, and I know Snape is, you can just pretend you are eating normal food. <> Repeating: Ugly mermaids. That's wildy different from the norm. House-elfs. I doubt the medium young reader brainwashed by LOTR knew elves could be small, ugly and, well, as house-elfs. Fairies. Turned into Barbies. But as she uses the same name, we recognize them. However, she changes a bit a creature (Nightmare) and gives a different name (Thestrals) and the medium reader doesn't recognize them. The power of names. <> Should he have long fangs, a red cloak and sleep in a coffin for us to deduct? Then we should banish PPetigrew for being such a beliable rat during the first novels, how were we expected to deduct he was an animagus? <> And I'd love you to find counterarguments that are not repeatedly answered, it would be so fun. I'm not even a Snave-vampire one, but I'd like for the theory to be disproved, and it isn't, so I'm playing the opposite role. silmariel From joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 10:32:24 2003 From: joy_the_lemur at yahoo.com (joy_the_lemur) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:32:24 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77775 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > > I agree... there is more evidence of Lupin's possible Legilimency skills in OoP > also. > > Chapter Three - The Advance Guard > pg. 50 US Edition > pg. 49 & 40 UK Edition > Harry inclined his head awkwardly at each of them as they were > introduced. He wished they would look at something other than him; it was as > though he had suddenly been ushered onstage. He also wondered why so > mnay of them were there. > "A surprising number of people volunteered to come and get you," said > Lupin, as though he had reqad Harry's mind; the corners of his mouth > twitched slightly. > > Yes, I definately think there is something about Lupin! > This is *very* interesting! You know, during Sirius and Molly's argument over whether or not Harry should be let in on Order business, Lupin has his eyes "fixed" on Sirius for an extended period of time. (US 88-89; UK 84-85) I always got the impression there that Lupin was trying to *read* Sirius. When Lupin finishes his eye-fixing activities, he comes out on Sirius' side of the argument. Almost as if he saw something in Sirius that had greater weight than his words. Ah, pure speculation on my part of course. -joy (the lemur) From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 10:32:59 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:32:59 -0000 Subject: Sirius' Motorcycle, Licenses (was "Re: Harry's 16th birthday") In-Reply-To: <3F4027A6.4060005@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77776 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > kiricat2001 wrote: > > > Perhaps at the time Sirius had his motorbike, it was not a violation > > of the use of Muggle artifacts. > > > > Marianne > > > > > Or he could care less about the laws? Not all the characters are law > abiding, you know and the MOM is not all knowing/all powerful and can't > catch all the scofflaws. > > Not that they would even try to as the MOM is pretty corupt itself. > > Jazmyn Also, other wizards were aware of his having the cycle. Don't you think that they would have reported him? Especially his cousins, who were not all that fond of him. Surely, Bellatrix would have given that bit of info away. It is therefore, entirely possible that the cycle was a legal device. D From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 10:38:36 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:38:36 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mgborus" wrote: > > > > ...edited... > > > > After the map has caused this much trouble and is somewhere among > > Crouch's posessions, ti seems unilkely that Dumbledore would have > > returned it to Harry. It also seems unlikely that Harry, traumatized > > by Cedric's death and Voldemort's return, would have snuck back into > > Moody's office to get it. It certainly isn't mentioned anywhere. > > > > So how does Harry have the map? > > > > -matt > > bboy_mn: > > Well, you are right, what happens to the map never appears on the > printed page, but the map does belong to Harry, and it's not likely > something Dumbledore would take away from Harry. Certainly, it's > something most students would not be allowed to have but Harry is a > special case. The problems, conflicts, and unexpected circumstances > that befall Harry's life are usual, and I can't see Dumbledore making > them any more difficult than they all ready are by taking the map away. > > So... short version... Dumbledore returned the map to Harry before he > left school, but it happened 'off page'. > > So how does Harry get his Broomstick back at the end of OotP? We > don't see it happen that I can remember, but I think it is safe to say > that Harry does have it. Again, there is only just so much room on the > printed page, so certain things have to occur 'off page'. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn If you want to get technical...Harry is still banned from Quidditch for life at then end of OotP. Although, I am sure that all those MoM decrees were recinded (sorry about spelling) nowhere does it say so. I am sure though that the ban was lifted and the decrees were recinded. D From sydpad at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 12:07:56 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:07:56 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory (kinda long) In-Reply-To: <200308181224.50183.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77778 Silmariel wrote: > > Ugly mermaids. That's wildy different from the norm. > > House-elfs. I doubt the medium young reader brainwashed by LOTR knew > elves could be small, ugly and, well, as house-elfs. > > Fairies. Turned into Barbies. > > But as she uses the same name, we recognize them. However, she changes a > bit a creature (Nightmare) and gives a different name (Thestrals) and > the medium reader doesn't recognize them. The power of names. But these are all cosmetic things-- like, ultimately, going out in daylight or the garlic thing. But saying you have a non-undead vampire, is like saying you have a non-turning-into-a-wolf werewolf. Lupin isn't unusually hairy, the silver thing has never been mentioned, nor have of the other folkloric associations of werewolfhood. But he DOES turn into a wolf. That's what makes him a werewolf. JKR wouldn't even have to call him a werewolf, we would all still recognize him as one. I'm not a vampire fan, but at the level of basic definitions, isn't a vampire an undead creature (that is, a human being who has, rather than dying, entered a twilight state of non-life, non-death), that keeps itself going by sucking up the life-force of living creatures, be it blood or whatever. Isn't it? If Snape is aging normally, he is not undead, is he? Seeing as immortality and the nature of death are such HUGE themes in the books, I can't see JKR dropping the undead part, not to mention the selfishness of hanging on to life by sucking it out of other people part. It still seems impossible to avoid some sort of Snape/Vampire association, but, well, I might have to sign up for the half-vampire theory, so he can get in the parade with the other half-people like Hagrid and Fleur. Sydney From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Mon Aug 18 12:26:06 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:26:06 -0000 Subject: Why Snape Taught Occlumency (was: Is Lupin skilled at Legilimency?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77779 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whimsyflower" > wrote: > > > > I think there are a few ways JKR advanced the > > plot by having Snape begin Occlumency lessons > > with Harry **SNIP** > > For better or worse, Snape now has direct knowledge > > of events during which Harry felt scared and > > jealous. > > I agree: Those lessons just *have* to be critical in developing the > relationship between Harry and Snape.*SNIP* Harry is eventually > going to find it impossible to blame Snape for hating James. And > Snape now knows (and will eventually process the fact) that Harry is > *not* really so much like James, particularly the parts of James' > character and background that Snape most hated. Harry hasn't been the > star all his life, as James seems to have been (indeed, Harry has much > more frequently been the target of discrimination, bullying and > derision) and he has never much enjoyed star treatment when he does > get it. Along those particular lines, Harry arguably has more in > common with Snape than with James. NOW ME (AmanitaMuscaria): I agree with this - I think we've now finished with the childish things (well, maybe not entirely - should at least get some action sequences), and the next books will concentrate on Harry developing his human characteristics. He and Snape (Oops, sorry, Professor Snape) will have to overcome their antipathy, I think. My guess is Harry HAS to do Potions, and he HAS to learn Occlumency, and I believe he HAS to learn both from Prof.Snape. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 12:50:44 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:50:44 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Family (was Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: <33C97F24.6FFCE43E.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77780 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: Here's a thought: Gran doesn't seem to care much for Neville's mom (with her strict manner regarding the bubblegum wrapper, etc.), and I assumed this was because she is Neville's paternal grandmother, and doesn't have any real love for Neville's mom. Which side of the family is Uncle Algie from? Could the father's side be baddies? :) A few days ago, someone reading the Chinese editions clarified that Marvolo was Tom Riddle's maternal grandfather (there is apparently a distinct word for each relationship). I have emailed her to ask about Gran as well - once I get her response, hopefully I will get back to this message. Personally I doubt Neville's plant is bad. Somebody with knowledge would have spotted it by now - time to go back and see if there are any references to this type of plant in previous books. Melinda From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 12:55:30 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 12:55:30 -0000 Subject: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77781 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" > > I think Sirius and James were both majorly at fault here. The only > person who came out of that smelling like a rose is Lily. > > > ~Margaret, still firmly in the pro-Snape camp, and was just trying to > see the other side Laura: Now wait a minute. We read in canon more than once that James and sirius were popular. Bullies tend not to fit that description. So I would deduce that their bad behavior was directed at people who were out of line in some obvious way. And we know that James straightened up by the time he was 16 (or else he couldn't have been a candidate for Head Boy when he was 17). Once he did that, Sirius would probably have cooled out himself, since he held James in greater esteem than anyone else (and he would have lost his favorite co- conspirator). We just don't have the whole picture of the James/Sirius-Snape relationship. And now it looks like we never will. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 13:02:31 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:02:31 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote:> > > I think it's very unlikely that Snape and Lupin did -anything- > together. I think it's more likely that Lupin and Sirius voiced > concerns about Snape teaching Harry (I'm sure Lupin insisted they > make sure Snape didn't know they did that of course), and Dumbledore > assured them that Snape was a *superb occlumens*. > > ~Margaret Laura Or it could just be a logical deduction, given that Snape is a double agent. He can't have lasted as long as he has unless he has great powers to deceive LV, who definitely has legilimens abilities. From rmm7e at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 13:33:18 2003 From: rmm7e at yahoo.com (Regina) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:33:18 -0000 Subject: Moody and the boggart Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77783 Question: If nobody knows what a boggart looks like when it's alone (according to Lupin in Book 3), how could Moody confirm that there was a boggart in the desk at 12 Grimmauld Place? Related question: If the boggart knew Moody was looking at it through the ceiling and desk, and therefore assumed the shape of his worst fear, what do you think it was? Crouch Jr? or something more abstract? --Regina From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Aug 18 13:48:06 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:48:06 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Moody and the boggart Message-ID: <12a.2fd6c39d.2c723316@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77784 In a message dated 8/18/2003 8:34:41 AM Central Standard Time, rmm7e at yahoo.com writes: > Question: If nobody knows what a boggart looks like when it's alone > (according to Lupin in Book 3), how could Moody confirm that there > was a boggart in the desk at 12 Grimmauld Place? > Maybe its more a case of process of elimination. He just rules out what its not and is left with only one possible thing it could be. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pen at pensnest.co.uk Mon Aug 18 13:50:47 2003 From: pen at pensnest.co.uk (Pen Robinson) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:50:47 +0100 Subject: HPfGU: Attn Steve - a belated Bathrooms post! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77785 I've just been going through the HPfGU archive - strangely, a number of the posts I have made in the past month or so have not shown up in my own mail. Anyway, I found your reply, below, to a post I'd made, and on the offchance that you are still interested in having my answers, here they are! --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com , Pen Robinson < pen at p... > wrote: > At my boarding school there were several bathrooms which each > contained a bath, and usually also a washbasin. > > ...edited... bboy_mn: I'm curious as to whether you are referring to one bathroom (as you described) per dorm/student_living room, or in some cases, one shared bath per two dorm rooms, or if you are referring to one large common facility full of several separate individual baths and sinks. I got the impression of individual private bathrooms. The second question is, when you say 'bath' for you mean bathing area, or specifically, a bathtub; if bathtub, then a bathtub with or without shower capability? Ho-kay. Now, then. I think we ought to be clear on the meaning of 'dorm', here. I feel fairly sure that it means something different on opposite sides of the Atlantic. When I was at boarding school, we girls slept in dormitories. A dormitory, generally known as a dorm, was a bedroom. Younger students (I keep wanting to call them 'juniors' but that is open to misinterpretation too!) were not supposed to be in their dorms for leisure - they slept, and got dressed/changed, in the dorms but spent the rest of the non-school time in the common room downstairs (or outside). In the sixth form, we were allowed to spend more time in our dorms if we so wished. In the early years, we were in dorms of 8, 10 or 12. Dorm furniture was (per student): bed (often but not always bunkbeds), bedside locker (not something that locked, but a fairly minimalist little cupboard about 3' high) and chest of drawers. There were, if I remember rightly, a couple of wardrobes per dorm, for us to hang up such clothes as required hanging up. As we increased in seniority, the dorms got smaller, so that in the fifth year I shared with two or three others, and in the sixth form, was in a room for two. The basic dorm furniture remained the same, though for our tiny sixth form two-dorm, the wardrobe was on the landing outside, and we had two very basic stackable desks to accommodate in the (very tiny) dorm itself: sixth-formers did their homework in their dorms, while the younger students did their homework in the common rooms downstairs. There were (actually, this varied, but we won't go into that!) three common rooms, Junior (1st, 2nd and 3rd years), Senior (4th and 5th) and Sixth Form. It's probably worth explaining that our boarding house was a largeish Edwardian house just opposite the school. The top corridor on which the various sixth-form dorms were located had obviously been the servants' quarters, hence the tiny rooms! Anyway. None of our dormitories contained so much as a washbasin. Washing facilities were to be found in various cloakrooms - a cloakroom being the place which contained a row of toilet cubicles and, opposite them, a row of handbasins. The cloakrooms varied in size (and just to confuse you, we also referred to the rooms in which we hung up our outdoor coats, as cloakrooms. But never mind that now.) -- the one on the sixth form landing was quite small, but see next paragraph... JKR, of course, refers to "the girls' toilets" instead of saying "the girls' cloakroom", but the thing is understood to be the same - ie Moaning Myrtle lives in a room with a row of loos in cubicles, and a row of washbasins. The bathrooms contained: a bathtub. Sometimes also a washbasin. Sometimes (it's a bit vague, after so long!) even a toilet. But when I refer to 'a bathroom', what I mean is 'a room which contains a bath'. Anyway, there were various bathrooms all over the place. Those on the sixth form landing were equipped with loo and washbasin, which was handy. We did not (this was in the 1970s) have showers at all, except for those hideous plastic/rubber attachment thingies which fitted over the taps and were used to facilitate the washing of hair. With fifty girls in the house, bath times were regulated, ie the juniors had to have their baths on pre-specified nights at specified times. Sixth formers were allowed to bath when they chose (and when they could find an empty bathroom!). (There was a similar arrangement when I was at university: individual bathrooms on every corridor, with separate toilets next to them. While I lived in the most modern part of the college I had a washbasin in my room; a subsequent move to a bigger, more beautiful room in the older part of college meant going along the corridor to a bathroom with handbasin, or a mini cloakroom containing loo and basin.) Perhaps the first question we should ask and answer is whether Hogwarts is likely to have private/semi-private bathrooms, or if they have common/communal bathrooms? From my own experience, therefore, bathrooms would be individual, private rooms. NO communal bathing! I did experience communal showering once I went to college, as there was a shower area in the changing room at the boat club. And I suppose the showers by our school swimming pool were more or less communal, but those were really only used for getting the chlorine off, not for 'proper' showers involving actual soap... I can only use my personal NOT-UK college experience where dorm rooms has a sink but that's all. A floor of dorm rooms used a common bathroom and shower (no partitions between showers). I suspect that covers a vast majority of colleges in the US. So the first question - Hogwarts Boarding School... Private bath - one bathroom per dorm room? Semi-private bath - one bathroom per two dorm rooms? Although, living in a tower, doesn't make that likely. Common/Communal bathroom? - Perhaps one floor of the tower is a large bathroom for the boys, and another floor of the tower is a large bathroom for the girls. Personally, this is has my vote. I'd suggest there would be at least one communal cloakroom (ie washing facilities and toilets) as described above, with individual bathrooms as well. Or as an alternative, one floor split in half; boy on the right half, girls on the left half, solid stone wall with no 'peep' holes separating the two. Then the next question is, what facilities, that is, what equipment is contained in each bathroom? Tubs, stools, sinks? Tub/shower combinations, stools, sinks? Showers only, stools, sinks? I think Hogwarts is old-fashioned enough to have baths rather than showers. In my childhood homes, the only shower available was the aforementioned plastic/rubber attachment thingies. When I acquired a step-grandmother, the shower built in over her bathtub seemed very posh. Primarily group showers with a few tubs, stools, sinks? No saunas, no hot tub/Jacuzzi, no steam room, no tanning beds, no masseuse, etc... Only for prefects! Of course, there is no way for me to know, but here is what I suspect. One tower floor for boys, and one for girls bathroom facilities, open group showers with a few semi-private tubs, private toilet stalls, rows of sinks, and a changing area outside the shower area. One wash sink in each dorm room. But, like I said, I have know way of knowing, so this is pure speculation. I speculate that JKR hasn't really thought it out, to be honest! My own boarding school life was fairly free and easy by comparison with my sister's (she attended a different boarding school), but there was quite a bit more regulation than there is at Hogwarts. Bells rung to regulate the rising from bed, attendance at meals, departure for school, the beginning and end of 'prep' (ie homework time), and so forth. I spose the house elves are a bit more amenable than mere human staff to supplying a rather staggered breakfast time, but if the Hogwarts students really do wander about as they please, the place must be a madhouse! Cheers, Pen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 14:00:21 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:00:21 -0000 Subject: Sex and Harry Potter ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77786 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote: > > Here it is. As time is running, the kids are no longers *kids* > anymore. In book 7, Harry will be something like seventeen years- old. > As we live in a real world and so does Harry too, he > will perhaps engage into love-affairs that will lead him to > experience intimacy with a woman > Now my question is : do you think that it should be possible or even > desirable for an author like J.K.R. who, to be sure, not only writes > for children but also writes for them, to introduce such a topic > (and, why not, descriptions - for example his first experience with a > woman ; after all we already got the description of what really seems > to be his very first kiss) in her future novels ? [Let me precise > something : When I talk about descriptions, what I have in mind are > not pornographic or crude descriptions, of course, but something that > remains to be found out : it seems almost easy for an author who > writes for children to write about such a topic as death, but > incomparably harder to talk about love, physical love]. (snip) Ginger: One of the things I love about JKR's writing is how well she lets her readers maintain their own comfort level. Violence, swearing, and even "the kiss" are more alluded to than directly described unless the plot dicatates that the specifics be known. I think of the Graveyard scene. I was surprised at the detail of the violence described, yet it is important that we know exactly how the rebirth took place. At the same time, she doesn't describe Wormtail actually cutting off his hand. She does it in a roundabout way. Harry closes his eyes as Wormtail screams. Later we hear of the bleeding stump. Enough to let us know what happened without a graphic description. On to sex! If anyone does have sex, I think we will only find out if it is important to the plot. I *really* don't think we will see a full-blown graphic description involving things parents may not want their children to be reading. I can see JKR alluding to a couple being gone for a while and blushing when asked for an explanation, perhaps followed by a "What's that smugde on your robe?" "Oh, er, just, er, toothpaste." Kind of an "inappropriate charms on a goat" kind of wink to the adults that kids would just read over. Given what we know about ourselves, I think we can fill in the details and have a *lot* of fun doing it (pardon the expression);) Ginger, who thinks an "adult" version might not be a bad read From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 18 14:02:27 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:02:27 -0000 Subject: HPfGU: Attn Steve - a belated Bathrooms post! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77787 Pen Robinson and his bewildering assortment of bathroom furniture: > Then the next question is, what facilities, that is, what equipment is contained in each bathroom? Tubs, stools, sinks? Tub/shower combinations, stools, sinks? Showers only, stools, sinks? I think Hogwarts is old-fashioned enough to have baths rather than showers.> Kirstini (c'est moi, you know) It has both. Showers in the Quidditch changing rooms (ie "Where's Wood?" "Still in the showers. We think he's trying to drown himself.", baths (presumably) in the dormitories - I noticed last night when reading OoP that Ron and Ginny go off for baths after a particularly bad Quidditch practise. Ron could always be off to the Prefects bathroom, but Ginny couldn't. This bit is either "The Beetle At Bay" or the chapter immediately after it, as Hermione and Harry have just been talking about Cho and her particular brand of waterworks. Another bit of scintillating canonical discussion there. Actually, if you're interested in the subject, try typing "plumbing" and "toilet" into the Search Archive and clicking "Previous" a few times. I think back in February or so there was a fantastic post on lavatorial humour and Rabelasian preoccupations in the series. The Leaky Cauldron also archived an article from an Australian paper a few weeks back, on why Harry never washes. Kirstini, feeling a bit mucky. From gansecki at hawaii.edu Mon Aug 18 09:23:09 2003 From: gansecki at hawaii.edu (lavaluvn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:23:09 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > > AAm wrote: > > Maybe Lupin is only skilled in Leglimency and tried to use it > > with/against Snape who happened to be a master Occlumens ? Or the > > two of them practiced together ? What do you think ? > > > > I think it's very unlikely that Snape and Lupin did -anything- > together. I think it's more likely that Lupin and Sirius voiced > concerns about Snape teaching Harry (I'm sure Lupin insisted they > make sure Snape didn't know they did that of course), and Dumbledore > assured them that Snape was a *superb occlumens*. > > ~Margaret I agree that Snape and Lupin were _highly_ unlikely to have practiced together, but I think S&L might know about Snape's prowess in occlumency because it has something to do with his service for the Order. It just doesn't seem to me that he could go in person to spy on Voldy or the DEs. Not after V's comment in GoF about having him killed. Perhaps he's using some form of legilimens/ occlumency to get information from their minds. Or maybe it's that he's such a superb occlumens that V can't tell when Snape is lying, so he could worm his way back in. Hmm. -CAG From gansecki at hawaii.edu Mon Aug 18 09:53:31 2003 From: gansecki at hawaii.edu (lavaluvn) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:53:31 -0000 Subject: Why the Veil? (as plot device) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77789 Beg pardon if this has already been discussed - I couldn't find a thread, but I'm only recently back after a long period of post-OotP mourning. My question is: why did JKR use the veil for Sirius' (sniff) death? I ask because because my husband (who has only read the HP books once - can you imagine?- and hasn't read any of the JKR interviews) had the reaction - "oh he'll be back" after reading the part with the death. "What? What makes you think that?" I asked, faintly hopeful. "Well, there's no body! Nothing to make it final." I know everyone quotes JKR on how death is final, etc, etc, no one can come back. The conversation with NHNick would seem to support that. But in this case we have no obvious proof of death, other than the word of DD and Lupin. Why did JKR make it such a vague, metaphorical death? Why not just have him get AKed and make it really clear that he's dead? Why the elaborate set up with the death chamber, voices, etc? Here's a few possibilities I've thought of... any others would be highly appreciated. 1. AK has been used for one death already, just needed something different. 2. She didn't want to deal with the logistics of Sirius' body being discovered in the MOM. Who gets the credit/blame? What about the funeral? 3. She's leaving open possibilities for Sirius to return in some form or other. (I know, wishful thinking) 4. She's setting up the Veil for some future role (I believe b_boy had some vision of it being used on Voldemort in the end?) 5. ??? Thanks, CAG From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 14:05:54 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:05:54 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > aamonn2000" : > > > (1) You can replace *woman* by *man* if you believe that it better > > > fits Harry's taste. > > Ravenclaw Bookworm: > > I'm curious. Where did the idea that Harry might be gay come from? > > The only person he seems to notice romantically is Cho. I don't > > remember any particular description of a male student that would > > indicate Harry was interested. > Severus here: I really hope this does not become a pride fest saying that Harry is gay. He obviously is not, since he is infactuated with Cho for a short time, but he still finds her nice to look at. And he did look at Hermione in a new light when she showed up at the ball with Krum. I am slightly tired of the homosexual front reading gay themes into everything from comics to cartoons that my children watch, Sponge Bob comes to mind. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the alternative lifestyle of this group of people, (my sister is, and I adore her partner) I just don't care for their "it has to be in your face" policy. Sorry for the rant, just my honest opinion. Severus "no thank you, I'm straight" Snape From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 18 14:10:18 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:10:18 -0000 Subject: Why the Veil? (as plot device) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77791 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lavaluvn" wrote: > > My question is: why did JKR use the veil for Sirius' (sniff) death? My opinion: JKR wanted to make it clear, that she believes in life after Death. Therefore she created the veil, as the barrier between the life and the afterlife, and let Harry hear the voices. herefore he has a strong reason to believe Luna, when she later said, that Sirius and the others are just lurking out of sight. This would be much more difficult, if Sirius died in another way. Hickengruendler From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 14:14:20 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:14:20 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77792 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > See this is where I start to get confused. > "Nose against the window". So THIS person can see a house just not > who is in it. Those who haven't been told the location of the HQ > can't see the house. > > I'm guessing that it all depends on precisly how the secret itself is > worded. The Potter's secret only hid THEM since from what Flitwick > said it did not neccessarily hide thier HOUSE. The HQ IS a house and > so the whole thing becomes hidden. That's the best I can come up with > so far. This would perhaps explain why James and Lily couldn't be their own secret keepers. If someone can't see you because they haven't been told the secret, how can you tell them? Someone who is not being hidden must tell them. Dumbledore is able to be the Order's secret keeper because it is the house, not DD who is being hidden. My questin is how Dumbledore, Hagrid, and anyone else knew where the house was? Hagrid had to be let in on the secret to be able to get Harry after the attack, but Hagrid didn't really know much in terms of details. Did PP give Serius a series of notes to give to the appropriate people telling them where J&L were hiding? If he didn't, how did they know where to find them? From annemehr at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 14:25:58 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:25:58 -0000 Subject: Defending Ron ? Ultimate Betrayal vs Jealousy In-Reply-To: <120134297606.20030818024247@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77793 > annemehr wrote: > > > No, NOT the truth, not in this case, anyway. Harry could no more > > help blowing up Aunt Marge, as hard as he tried, than Ron could ever > > help his ears turning red when he's upset. Susanne replied: > I (and Ron, I think) was referring to the punishment for > said happenings :) > > If it had been another character using underage magic in > this manner, they would most likely not have gotten away > without any repercussions. Annemehr again: Well, we have two questions here. The first is, did Harry commit a punishable offense? The second is, would the MoM know or care that the magic was *uncontrolled*? In justice, uncontrolled magic should never be punished. The MoM should take pains to find out whether it was uncontrolled, as this is something that is bound to happen to underage wizards at least occaisionally. Of course, we know the MoM's record in meting out justice these days. Harry, of course, told Ron that he didn't mean to blow up Aunt Marge. Even though he didn't get too many words in edgewise at the time, and even though he didn't go into what led up to Aunt Marge being inflated, he said enough that Ron should understand that Harry didn't do anything wrong. Ron should know that Harry doesn't deserve punishment. But I do take your point. Ron may just be referring to the fact that the MoM would ordinarily have (unjustly) punished a student who had the misfortune to do uncontrolled magic, but as it was Harry they "let him off". Still, I wouldn't refer to that as Harry "getting away with stuff" as it seems to imply guilt on Harry's part. Is that just a quirk of my own? Annemehr who notes that "being Harry" causes a lot more trouble than it gets him out of! :-/ From catherinemck at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:29:19 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:29:19 -0000 Subject: Secret Agent Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77794 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quimbyquidditch" wrote: > > Catherine wrote: > > I thought that Snape's activities in OotP were something to do with > > Lucius Malfoy rather than direct contant with Voldemort, which would > > surely be too risky. Snape is > > clearly in contact with Lucius (hence his remark to Sirius about L > > recognising S). However whether he is in touch with Lord V. through > > Lucius or doing something else entirely is up in the air (until > > someone finds a really good clue). Of course, if Voldemort can read > > Malfoy's mind ("The Dark Lord knows," "He always knows") then he?ll > > know about Snape's activities. > > > > Catherine McK > > This is just a wilde theory. I am entirely unable to back it up with > canon and it's only half-developed. We know that talented > leglimancists can plant thoughts (as Voldemort did with Harry when > Harry thought Sirius was in the Ministry of Magic). To what extent > can they plant thoughts? Do you think Snape could plant a thought in > Malfoy's mind, without Malfoy knowing the thought had been planted, > and then Malfoy could pass that thought on to Voldemort? Could Snape > be passing misinformation on to Voldemort using Malfoy as the vessel, > or is that just too far out of the bounds of leglimancy? > > quimbyquidditch, who admits it's a very weak theory . . . No it isn't, it's a great theory. Snape doesn't even have to 'plant' if merely say things that bubble in Malfoy's mind for V. to pick up on. Catherine McK From Lynx412 at aol.com Mon Aug 18 14:29:49 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:29:49 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scar? Message-ID: <19c.18e46871.2c723cdd@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77795 In a message dated 8/17/03 5:51:57 AM Eastern Daylight Time, arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: > There's a throw-away line in 'Snapes worst memory' that interests me. > > 'But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was > a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, > spattering his robes with blood.' > I've wondered if this isn't the same spell Dolohov [? don't have my book handy] later used on Hermione? The gestures and effect seem similar, and when it's used on Hermione, it's also cast without a word. Cheryl the Lynx [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 14:30:44 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 07:30:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818143044.58980.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77796 > > aamonn2000" : > > > > (1) You can replace *woman* by *man* if you > believe that it > better > > > > fits Harry's taste. > > > Ravenclaw Bookworm: I like to read certain characters as certian ways. And until JKR comes out and says 'Harry is straight' or 'Harry is gay', then I will continue to read him how I want. I see him as a very confused boy afraid of any sexuality. His relatives are not the best, as they do not treat Harry well and show him what true affection is. He obviously had no idea how to treat Cho both before and after. I can see him as, in later books, experimenting with another boy. I do not know how he will settle later (but's it's fun to play). And to severusbook4, if you don't like to read it, don't. There is no canon either way for gay or straight, especially after Harry says specifically he was not moved by the kiss or the date. _And he says in book four he was not sure if he liked Cho for being a woman, herself or beauty, but for her Quiddich skills. And what if Harry turns out to be bisexual and forms the realization that it doesn't matter the sex of the partner, just as long as it is love? Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From catherinemck at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 14:39:15 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:39:15 -0000 Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "joy_the_lemur" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "grindieloe" wrote: > > > > > I agree... there is more evidence of Lupin's possible Legilimency > skills in OoP > > also. > > > > Chapter Three - The Advance Guard > > pg. 50 US Edition > > pg. 49 & 40 UK Edition > > Harry inclined his head awkwardly at each of them as they were > > introduced. He wished they would look at something other than him; > it was as > > though he had suddenly been ushered onstage. He also wondered why > so > > mnay of them were there. > > "A surprising number of people volunteered to come and get > you," said > > Lupin, as though he had reqad Harry's mind; the corners of his > mouth > > twitched slightly. > > > > Yes, I definately think there is something about Lupin! > > > > > This is *very* interesting! > > You know, during Sirius and Molly's argument over whether or not > Harry should be > let in on Order business, Lupin has his eyes "fixed" on Sirius for an > extended period > of time. (US 88-89; UK 84-85) I always got the impression there > that Lupin was > trying to *read* Sirius. When Lupin finishes his eye-fixing > activities, he comes out > on Sirius' side of the argument. Almost as if he saw something in > Sirius that had > greater weight than his words. > > Ah, pure speculation on my part of course. > > -joy (the lemur) Or Lupin is trying to get Sirius to read him and restrain himself, after which he comes out on Sirius's side in the argument, but in a more conciliatory way than S's style. It _is_ interesting, isn't it! Catherine From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Mon Aug 18 14:40:15 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:40:15 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "linlou43" > wrote: > > > > linlou: > > > > I posted an analysis of the prophecy a little over a month ago > > that addresses this as well as the rest of the prophecy. The list > > volume has been so high that I'm sure most people probably didn't > > even see it. I tried to get to it by post number(69589) but yahoo > > can't seem to find it that way. > > Geoff: > Just got it with no problems using the msg# entry. Interesting! Now Me: The only problem with linlou's analysis is that (s)he is using Merriam-Webster as the source. As JKR is British, Oxford English would be the dictionary of choice (and there are differences), in preference the Complete OED. Otherwise, the analysis brings up good points. Cheers. AmanitaMuscaria From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Mon Aug 18 14:46:30 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:46:30 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Family (was Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77799 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > > Personally I doubt Neville's plant is bad. Somebody with knowledge > would have spotted it by now - time to go back and see if there are > any references to this type of plant in previous books. > I also think Neville would know this. He is good in Herbology and likely to recognize a dangerous plant. Hickengruendler From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Aug 18 15:07:46 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:07:46 +0100 Subject: Lily - Snape. An AGGIE? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77800 SHIPs are the source of endless fascination for the more romantically minded in the Group, others, miserable old misogynist curmudgeons that we are, tend to sigh and pass on to the next post. But I feel that there should be a similar form of harmless entertainment for us too. So why not explore the relationships that are never to be, the one-sided passion that is doomed to wither unrequited as the targeted party make their excuses and leave - hurriedly. It helps if reasons are given for the ultimate failure of love to conquer all; that way we can all nod sagely at the pathetic efforts of a cock-eyed Cupid to ensnare the unsuitable. To match the SHIPpers we need an identifier. As a possible contender I tentatively offer AGGIE after St Agnes who rejected her suitors. If anyone can come up with something better we can change it. Of course, the Lily - Snape AGGIE has been the subject of many posts, with many fans speculating that Snapey had a thing for Lily. I've searched the canon and have found absolutely zero evidence or even the slightest hint that this is the case. Maybe it's the other way round, with Lily having a pash for ole Sevvie. But so far as I can see no-one has explained just why romance never blossomed. The Snape character is a fascinating one for many posters; dark, mysterious, forceful. Some girls would go weak at the knees when confronted by a rampant Snape; did Lily? After all, she made a public scene when James had a go at him. What does that tell you? A soft spot in Lilys' heart for the vulnerable heart-throb of the fifth year, perhaps? I've been told that vulnerability in a male is supposed to attract females and here was a shy retiring lad, subject to bullying, no idea of how to pick a decent shampoo and with sub- standard laundry arrangements. Obviously, he needs some-one to take care of him. Nowhere is there any evidence that Snape returned her feelings. Here he was, struggling to excel in his exams and Lily pushes herself into his life. You need good marks to be a Death Eater; study hard, early nights, all that stuff. Meanwhile, there's this love-struck female dogging his footsteps, following him down to the lake, defending him in front of everybody. What can a chap do? One should be polite, but that may cause misunderstandings and encourage her. And her family! Who'd want to marry into that!? So it was the hard word, the rejection. James was over-joyed. Snaffled the object of his obsession on the rebound after trying for so long. Being the under-handed sort of person he was, it didn't stop him sniping at Snape, though he didn't dare let him come to a sticky end investigating the Shrieking Shack. Lily would have gone ballistic and given him the elbow for sure. What was it that caused the breach? Was Snape eventually put off by Lily's green eyes - one pointing north-east, the other pointing nor'-nor'-west? Is this why everyone mentions her eyes but nothing else about her? Is this why Harry wears glasses? Could it be that her charms were not up to the standard implied by Ollivander? Perhaps Snape was too career orientated to be bothered with the opposite sex, exams to pass, muggles to torture. So the opportunity slipped by; one of the great romances of literature never comes to pass. But we can dream Kneasy From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 15:11:05 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:11:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > > > Severus here: > > I really hope this does not become a pride fest saying that Harry is > gay. He obviously is not, since he is infactuated with Cho for a > short time, but he still finds her nice to look at. And he did look > at Hermione in a new light when she showed up at the ball with > Krum. I am slightly tired of the homosexual front reading gay > themes into everything from comics to cartoons that my children > watch, Sponge Bob comes to mind. Now don't get me wrong, I have no > problem with the alternative lifestyle of this group of people, (my > sister is, and I adore her partner) I just don't care for their "it > has to be in your face" policy. Sorry for the rant, just my honest > opinion. > > Severus "no thank you, I'm straight" Snape \ Laura: What? No "Queer Eye for the Straight Wizard" to look forward to? I think our dear Snape (the book one, not the person who just posted) could definitely benefit from a day at the spa to deal with that hair and skin problem, and he could stand to have an office makeover, don't you think? And just imagine what the Fab 5 could do with Grimmauld Place... Laura (hoping to defuse a potentially volatile situation with a bit of humor) From dwoodward at towson.edu Mon Aug 18 15:09:47 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Deirdre F Woodward) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:09:47 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77802 LOL The thread that won't die. I just joined today and went back to the first post (more than 77,000 messages ago!) and found this interesting thread (which appeared in August 2001, was revived in August 2002, and lives on in August 2003!). With five books under my belt, the character who scares me the most is Bellatrix Lestrange. There is something about her character that creeps me out more than any of the other baddies. I guess she's had the most fleshing out of the inner core of Voldemort's circle. The other person who creeps me out is Lucius Malfoy. Quelle snake. So hi everyone and I look forward to the flood of e-mails this list is sure to generate. Deirdre From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 15:35:39 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:35:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77803 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > > > > Severus here: > > > > I really hope this does not become a pride fest saying that Harry > is > > gay. He obviously is not, since he is infactuated with Cho for a > > short time, but he still finds her nice to look at. And he did > look > > at Hermione in a new light when she showed up at the ball with > > Krum. I am slightly tired of the homosexual front reading gay > > themes into everything from comics to cartoons that my children > > watch, Sponge Bob comes to mind. Now don't get me wrong, I have no > > problem with the alternative lifestyle of this group of people, (my > > sister is, and I adore her partner) I just don't care for their "it > > has to be in your face" policy. Sorry for the rant, just my honest > > opinion. > > > > Severus "no thank you, I'm straight" Snape > \ > > Laura: > > What? No "Queer Eye for the Straight Wizard" to look forward to? I > think our dear Snape (the book one, not the person who just posted) > could definitely benefit from a day at the spa to deal with that hair > and skin problem, and he could stand to have an office makeover, > don't you think? And just imagine what the Fab 5 could do with > Grimmauld Place... > > Laura (hoping to defuse a potentially volatile situation with a bit > of humor) Ok why on God's green earth would you say that harry is gay? If it has even crossed J.K. Rowlings mind she would have said nope, way to much contreversy(i dont think thats how you spell it but,,,). If she does make him gay she will lose a lor of fan's. Including me. Garrett P.S. I'm a christian and think this gay thread is evil! From pentzouli at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 15:49:19 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:49:19 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77804 > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? > > --Winky My heartbreaking moments are these : 1) In PS : The time when Harry finds out the truth about the mirror of Erised. Total disilusionment... 2) In PoA : The scene where he watches himself opposite the lake, thinking it is his father. 3) In GoF : The scene where he is put on the grave and all the DEs are just chatting, while he can't react (I simply cannot imagine a fourteen-year-old in such a state...), as well as the moment when Wormtail cuts him to take his blood, as he realises what the Death Eaters and their evilness is all about. But what shook me the most in that book, was his desperation while he pretended to sleep in the hospital wing, when the others were chattering. He had all these people around him, but I think it was one of these moments when he felt really lonely. 4) In OoP : Well, after Sirius's death, the rest of the book was really heartbreaking. Not bad, but really heartbreaking. His grief for Sirius is very obvious, especially when he visits Hagrid but realises that he can't feel any more at ease. When he is with company, he wants to be alone, and when he is alone, he is overwhelmed with the feeling of loneliness. So sad... holly_pheonix_11 From molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 15:50:51 2003 From: molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 08:50:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818155051.12738.qmail@web11604.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77805 --- Deirdre F Woodward wrote: > With five books under my belt, the character who > scares me the most > is Bellatrix Lestrange. There is something about > her character that > creeps me out more than any of the other baddies. I > guess she's had > the most fleshing out of the inner core of > Voldemort's circle. > > The other person who creeps me out is Lucius Malfoy. > Quelle snake. Kathryn: I would have to agree with you on both of those. They both scare me because they're so ruthless that they almost seem unhuman. Bellatrix mostly scares me because I think being in Azkaban only made her worse. Lucius scares me because he still has some affect on Hogwarts, alot of influence at the Ministry and likely some at St. Mungos. It's like he has a monopoly over the Wizard World. I have one person to add to the list. And that is Cornelius Fudge. He's in a very powerful position and he's stupid. Dangerously stupid. Fudge has already proved to be a huge problem to the Order. I hope it will get better now that he realizes he's been wrong this whole time, but I fear be will be harder on Dumbledore because he knows Dumbledore has been doing the Ministry's job all year, leading the war against Voldemort. Just my two knuts, Kathryn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 16:03:12 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818160312.90016.qmail@web21009.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77806 --- Deirdre F Woodward wrote: > LOL The thread that won't die. > > I just joined today and went back to the first post > (more than 77,000 > messages ago!) and found this interesting thread > (which appeared in > August 2001, was revived in August 2002, and lives > on in August > 2003!). > > With five books under my belt, the character who > scares me the most > is Bellatrix Lestrange. There is something about > her character that > creeps me out more than any of the other baddies. I > guess she's had > the most fleshing out of the inner core of > Voldemort's circle. > > The other person who creeps me out is Lucius Malfoy. > Quelle snake. > > So hi everyone and I look forward to the flood of > e-mails this list > is sure to generate. > > Deirdre > Bellatrix is as bad as the Dark Lord. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jkscherme at adelphia.net Mon Aug 18 16:16:28 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:16:28 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sister, Petunia Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77807 Throughout the first four books, we are told that Petunia is a muggle. However, in book five, after Dudley is attacked by a Dementor, she lets it slip that she knows that Dementors are guards at Azkaban Prison (pg. 31). She covers herself by saying that she overheard Harry's father telling Lily about them. Which leads me to wonder...? We know nothing about Lily's family other than what we've heard from Petunia. Petunia hates her sister...or is it jealousy? Is it possible that Petunia is a squibb? When Lily received her letter for Hogwarts maybe her parents really said, "Isn't it wonderful, "another" witch in the family." Petunia is obviously bitter and hateful because her parents were proud of Lily's witchcraft abilities. If she's a witch, without witchcraft it might account for the strong "blood" connection between Harry and Petunia. It would also account for Petunia's capitulation to Dumbledore when she kept Harry in the house after the attack. It was obvious that she knew more than she was sharing with Vernon or anyone else. Anyway, this is just a thought that's been rattling around in my head. If it's been put on the board before, I apologize. I don't remember reading about it. Anyway, I'm sure there are those of you who have plenty of ammunition to blow this one right out. Shoot away! Madeyesgal From cmurph18 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 16:23:56 2003 From: cmurph18 at yahoo.com (C M) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:23:56 -0000 Subject: Harry "always gets away with stuff" (Was Re: Defending Ron ?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77808 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: >>>Harry could no more help blowing up Aunt Marge, as hard as he tried, than Ron could ever help his ears turning red when he's upset.<<< Me: I don't think that's necessarily true. Harry *was* responsible for Aunt Marge blowing up; he failed to control his temper. He seemed fully aware that he had done something wrong, too. My impression has always been that any emotion-produced Magic a child does pre-Hogwarts is overlooked by the MoM, but once the child is aware of who/what they are, they have a responsibility to keep their powers in check. In PoA, Harry didn't do that. Honestly, of all the Restriction- breaking he's gotten in trouble for (CoS's pudding, OOP's Patronus), blowing up Aunt Marge is the only one that's valid and he *did* "get away with it." It was blown off completely due to the Sirius Black situation. >>>annemehr: In justice, uncontrolled magic should never be punished.<<< Me: I disagree. If Harry had started punching or kicking Aunt Marge when he lost his temper, it would have been just as wrong as what he did. Not holding him responsible for Magic he does in the heat of anger would send the message that it's "okay," that because he's a wizard, he deserves preferential treatment. And while many in the WW would agree, the prevailing attitude of their government seems to be on the other side of that fence. I personally don't think there was anything sinister in Ron's remark. Harry *does* get away with stuff (Aunt Marge, flying when Madame Hooch left in SS), but that's not a bad thing, is it? I assume that most of us cheer for him at those moments (as Ron and the rest of Weasleys did in OOP). He's the hero, we want things to go his way. CM, who loves it when things work out in Harry's favor. From dkewpie at pacbell.net Mon Aug 18 16:24:42 2003 From: dkewpie at pacbell.net (Kewpie) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:24:42 -0000 Subject: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" > > > Now wait a minute. We read in canon more than once that James and > sirius were popular. Bullies tend not to fit that description. So There are different types of bully, and obviously James and Sirius are very similar to the "jock-type" bully based on canon. They are popular, everyone (including teachers) loves them, they're usually the sport stars of the school, some are good in grades, they usually became president of the student body. When this particular type of bullies pick on someone, it's usally the lonely social outcast people they pick on. Usually they pick on people in the public when there are lots of people around. That only add on their popularity. The crowd would urge them on and sometimes they do it as a show. They know they can get away with it because everyone loves them. Your school never has these type of bullies? Then you're either lucky or from a very different school than I was. I've know these type of bullies in the schools I went to all my life as well as the schools all the people I know went to. I have almost fallen into the status of the "outcast victim" before and I know people who are victims of these popular bullies, I can tell you lots of personal stories and some are quite similar to what happen to Snape. > would deduce that their bad behavior was directed at people who were > out of line in some obvious way. And we know that James For popular bullies, pick on "people who were out of line in some obvious way" is one of the reasons they became (and remain) popular in the school. Of course they pick on the outcast nobody likes, if they pick on another popular student, they'll lose their popularity wouldn't they? that's the logical thing to do. > We just don't have the whole picture of the James/Sirius-Snape > relationship. And now it looks like we never will. I thought the Pensieve scene show the Bully/victim dynamics between James+Sirius/Snape very clearly. The rivalship is no way balance. Not everything have to be completely spelled out to be understand. I think there are enough facts in canon right now to conclude that Sirius and James WERE bullies back in their school days. JKR deliberately wrote that scene with clarifications too (ex: the whole thing start out only because Sirius is bored, Harry even got this confirmed later from Sirius himself, Lily asked "what has he ever done to you?" James "becoz he exist", more lily saying "hexing anyone who annoys you just because you can", the "snape reacted so fast it was as though he had been expecting an attack". the "Like a dog that has scented a rabbit"...etc). I don't see much ambiguity in her writing to suggest the other way at all. I guess people just cannot believe James and sirius are bullies and that their bully ways must have reasons since they're suppose to be "good" people. Well those popular bullies I've encountered not necessary evil/bad either, I'm sure they turn out to be decent people by now. J From andie at knownet.net Mon Aug 18 16:34:53 2003 From: andie at knownet.net (grindieloe) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:34:53 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77810 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "holly_phoenix_11" < > 4) In OoP : Well, after Sirius's death, the rest of the book was > really heartbreaking. Not bad, but really heartbreaking. His grief > for Sirius is very obvious, especially when he visits Hagrid but > realises that he can't feel any more at ease. When he is with > company, he wants to be alone, and when he is alone, he is > overwhelmed with the feeling of loneliness. So sad... > > holly_pheonix_11 This post actually brought tears to my eyes. This truly is a sad moment. There is no longer anyplace where Harry can find comfort. No place, no one can make him feel better. Everywhere he turns, he finds pain because the pain is really in his heart. He cannot escape it. JK did an excellent job here of portraying those feelings of loss that I'm sure most people can relate to in one way or another. Again, great heartbreaking moment, Andrea From lupinesque at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 16:36:22 2003 From: lupinesque at yahoo.com (Amy Z) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:36:22 -0000 Subject: Fwd: Re: Is It Just Me? (Cont.) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77811 jumping into the Niagara without so much as a barrel --- In HPFGU-OTChatter at yahoogroups.com, "Amy Z" wrote: Debbie wrote: > > I agree 100% with Abigail's point on how best to > > maintain quality on > > the list: > > > <<<< So post. Don't be afraid that someone's said the > same thing already - they have. >>>> That's good for quality in some ways, but I continue to be concerned about how it affects the volume problem. It goes like this: (1) I can't read all the posts, so I post my opinion, (2) and no one else can read all the posts either (except for the devoted and life-less ), so they don't read my opinion but post their own, (3) and you get even MORE people talking past each other. Overhigh volume is the enemy of high-quality conversation. I've had this sensation of escalating an arms race whenever I've clenched my teeth, said "damn the last 4000 posts, I'm posting without reading them," and posted. I'm glad to have an administrative blessing on doing so, but I'm still not content with the solution. Amy Z --- End forwarded message --- From jendiangelo at cox.net Mon Aug 18 16:37:32 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:37:32 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77812 Deirdre wrote: > The other person who creeps me out is Lucius Malfoy. Quelle snake. Acciosirius Jen: Lucius makes me nervous for the reasons provided by others (influence over the Ministry, at the school, etc.), but also the fact that he acts like that when he is a father. I know that may sound strange. I cannot understand how a man with a son the same age as Harry could willingly, viciously participate in the torment and torture of a child. I understand that Draco and Harry have no love towards one another, but how is it that Lucius does not have a problem with this? Makes me wonder how he would react if Dumbledore said, "To hell with all this nobility... Lucius has gone after Harry, so let's see how Draco responds to the Cruciatus Curse!" Bellatrix is a woman to be afraid of, because she apparently feels invincible and has serious mental issues! =) Just my thoughts, Jen From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 16:41:08 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:41:08 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Garrett" wrote: Severus: I really hope this does not become a pride fest saying that Harry is gay. He obviously is not, since he is infactuated with Cho for a short time, but he still finds her nice to look at. Chris: I like to read certain characters as certian ways. And until JKR comes out and says 'Harry is straight' or 'Harry is gay', then I will continue to read him how I want. I see him as a very confused boy afraid of any sexuality. His relatives are not the best, as they do not treat Harry well and show him what true affection is. He obviously had no idea how to treat Cho both before and after. Laura: What? No "Queer Eye for the Straight Wizard" to look forward to? Laura (hoping to defuse a potentially volatile situation with a bit of humor) Ok why on God's green earth would you say that harry is gay? Garrett P.S. I'm a christian and think this gay thread is evil! Now RB: I was truely not trying to start something here. JKR seems to be fairly liberal in her social outlook, from what I've heard her say, so the idea that some of her characters are gay isn't shocking to me. It's just that I've seen several references to a possilbe Harry/Draco SHIP and am totally befuddled (isn't that a great word?). Can anyone point to something more specific than teen angst and emotional abuse that leads them to think that Harry is gay? And lets keep this academic instead of moralizing, thanks. Ravenclaw Bookworm From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 16:40:53 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 09:40:53 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Scar? References: <19c.18e46871.2c723cdd@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77814 arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com writes: > There's a throw-away line in 'Snapes worst memory' that interests me. > > 'But too late; Snape had directed his wand straight at James; there was > a flash of light and a gash appeared on the side of James's face, > spattering his robes with blood.' > Cheryl: I've wondered if this isn't the same spell Dolohov [? don't have my book handy] later used on Hermione? The gestures and effect seem similar, and when it's used on Hermione, it's also cast without a word. Dan: Nope--the one that Dolohov used on Hermione was, I recall, purple and bloodless. She just dropped to the ground, unconscious, and had to get a lot of medical treatment later. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 16:44:33 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:44:33 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > TMS: > > The wand had to be pointing somewhere; I doubt Pettigrew really > cared > > exactly where (that is, he didn't need to aim with precision). And > it > > could be that he blew up the street behind him, not in front of him. > > Geoff: > This has always been my interpretation. Plus the fact that PP tries > (and succeeds) in dropping the blame onto Sirius, it wouldn't be > quite so easy if he was waving a wand around at the time the event > happened. I realize the wand was pointing somewhere. I just pictured the explosion between Sirius and Pettigrew, not behind Pettigrew. Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 17:08:36 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:08:36 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77816 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: Did PP give Serius a series of notes to give to the appropriate people telling them where J&L were hiding? If he didn't, how did they know where to find them? Instead of re-posting I'll refer you to my post #77733. It was in response to Arya's post #77728. I think her post ties in with this post, especially the theory about Frank Longbottom (for those who are skipping around and missed that thread). Ravenclaw Bookworm From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 18 16:19:34 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:19:34 -0000 Subject: Lily - Snape. An AGGIE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77817 --- B Arrowsmith wrote: > Of course, the Lily - Snape AGGIE has been the subject of many > posts, with many fans speculating that Snapey had a thing for Lily. > I've searched the canon and have found absolutely zero evidence or > even the slightest hint that this is the case. Maybe it's the other > way round, with Lily having a pash for ole Sevvie. But so far as > I can see no-one has explained just why romance never blossomed. > > So the opportunity slipped by; one of the great romances of > literature never comes to pass. > But we can dream > > Kneasy Canon evidence? Just the choice of words here when talking about Snape's view/feelings of James: 1) "Strutting around the place with his friends and ADMIRERS." Snape about James (PoA - Chap 14) 2) Lupin said of Snape, "He especially disliked James. JEALOUS, I think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field... " (PoA - Chap 14) Not conclusive evidence, but it's canon, and is similar to other clues JKR gives. aussie From mschnall at gmx.net Mon Aug 18 16:32:04 2003 From: mschnall at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:32:04 -0000 Subject: Marauder's Map In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77818 mgborus wrote: > > After the map has caused this much trouble and is > > somewhere among Crouch's posessions, ti seems > > unilkely that Dumbledore would have returned it > > to Harry. Steve/bboy_mn replied: > Well, you are right, what happens to the map never > appears on the printed page, but the map does belong > to Harry, and it's not likely something Dumbledore > would take away from Harry. Certainly, it's > something most students would not be allowed to have > but Harry is a special case. Agreed, and as someone pointed out in another thread on this recently, it's also one of James's old things, which DD may feel a special obligation to return to Harry despite its potential for use in mischief, cf. the Invisibility Cloak. As for "most students" not being allowed to have such things, we have not really seen DD's attitude toward special magical objects being held by students in general. We've been given to understand that Filch confiscates a lot of things, but I can only remember a few instances in which DD has been involved with whether students can keep such objects: 1) The Invisibility Cloak (given to Harry and returned to him when mislaid). 2) The Time Turner (I can't remember whether anything is said about his approval when Hermione recounts getting it from McGonagall, but DD is at least aware that Hermione is using it b/c he suggests its use in the Buckbeak/Sirius rescue sequence). 3) Magic carpets (presumably DD needed to approve the ban that, iirc, is stated in Harry's first Hogwarts letter). I'm not ruling out the possibility that the map is something DD would view as a threat to safety in other students' hands, but I think it just as credible that his laissez-faire approach would carry over here as well. From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 17:00:45 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:00:45 -0000 Subject: Gay Wizards and the W(real)W ? (was: Re: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77819 Garrett wrote : > Ok why on God's green earth would you say that harry is gay? Actually the main colour on earth is blue not green. > If it has even crossed J.K. Rowlings mind she would have said nope, > way to much contreversy(snip). The general topic of her books (whitchcraft) already seems WAY too controversial for some people. > If she does make him gay she will lose a lor of fan's. She already has plenty. > Including me. Er... No comment. > > P.S. I'm a christian and think this gay thread is evil! Are you serious ? Well if you are, let me add a lil' something to amend what you (and Severus) said. Originally, it was not supposed to be a gay thread (see my "Sex and Harry Potter" post for the little note that lead to the whole discussion); thus we were not wondering whether or not Harry is gay. In fact, the main point was this : since we don't know yet, people are just free to depict Harry that way if they want. Some seemed a bit confused with that very idea. I personally don't understand why, but hey, that's just my opinion... AAm (straight, but who cares ?). P.S.: Hermione should definitely assume the reins of the ww's government! From lkotur at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 17:10:47 2003 From: lkotur at yahoo.com (Damit Lazarus) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:10:47 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deirdre F Woodward" wrote: None of the characters "scare" me. I believe that Lord Voldemort claims to be really powerful, but he can't beat up a kid with glasses. The DeathEaters paniced when Harry and LV were "dueling". Yea that whole group is scary when they outnumber a 14 year old boy 30 to 1. And they ( the Deatheaters" )tried to run when Dumbledore showed up at the MOM. They are a scary group when picking on the helpless and hopelessly outnumbered. Actually, the character that is the most dangerous is Cornelius Fudge. He is in a position of power and misuses his office to persecute a 14 year old and deny the return of LV and his DE's. Misinformation can be quite deadly. LK From dropaad at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 17:14:38 2003 From: dropaad at yahoo.com (dropaad) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:14:38 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sister, Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: Is > it possible that Petunia is a squibb? Harry is a half-blood wizard. If Lily's family is all wizard than that means James' family is muggle? I don't think so. I do agree that there is a lot more about Petunia than just being a mean ole aunt. I am completely puzzled by her reaction to Dumbledore's howler. Can't image Dumbledore sending howler, for one thing. May be one bully meets another bully. Something very interesting is coming. Gosh, can't wait. drop From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 18 17:25:33 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:25:33 -0000 Subject: Lily - Snape. An AGGIE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > --- B Arrowsmith wrote: > > Of course, the Lily - Snape AGGIE has been the subject of many > > posts, with many fans speculating that Snapey had a thing for Lily. > > I've searched the canon and have found absolutely zero evidence or > > even the slightest hint that this is the case. Maybe it's the other > > way round, with Lily having a pash for ole Sevvie. But so far as > > I can see no-one has explained just why romance never blossomed. > > > > So the opportunity slipped by; one of the great romances of > > literature never comes to pass. > > But we can dream > > > > Kneasy > > Canon evidence? Just the choice of words here when talking about > Snape's view/feelings of James: > > 1) "Strutting around the place with his friends and ADMIRERS." Snape > about James (PoA - Chap 14) > > 2) Lupin said of Snape, "He especially disliked James. JEALOUS, I > think, of James's talent on the Quidditch field... " (PoA - Chap 14) > > Not conclusive evidence, but it's canon, and is similar to other > clues JKR gives. > > aussie Now, you're losing me. Kneasy commented that there didn't seem to be canon evidence of Snape's unrequited feelings for Lily. The canon quoted above certainly supports Snape's feelings about James. But I don't see how this is evidence of Snape's feelings for Lily. Or her feelings for him. Marianne From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 17:39:13 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 10:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818173913.2273.qmail@web20706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77823 Laura wrote: Now wait a minute. We read in canon more than once that James and sirius were popular. Bullies tend not to fit that description. So I would deduce that their bad behavior was directed at people who were out of line in some obvious way. And we know that James straightened up by the time he was 16 (or else he couldn't have been a candidate for Head Boy when he was 17). Once he did that, Sirius would probably have cooled out himself, since he held James in greater esteem than anyone else (and he would have lost his favorite co- conspirator). We just don't have the whole picture of the James/Sirius-Snape relationship. And now it looks like we never will. My reply: Isn't that sad? I really hope we get more backstory on them. But I supposse it's not meant to be. It bothers me that we are basing our entire opinion on young James and Sirius by one memory. I personally do not think they were that bad, Lily reminds me a great deal of Hermione. Even if people deserve to be taunted she would not put up with it. However, I refuse to believe that Snape was the innocent victim. There is absolutely nothing cannon to back that up besides this memory. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nappyronin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 17:39:47 2003 From: nappyronin at yahoo.com (nappyronin) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:39:47 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77824 linlou: I posted an analysis of the prophecy a little over a month ago that addresses this as well as the rest of the prophecy. me: I just read your post and the ones after it and they got me to thinking. Personally, I've always felt that Harry wouldn't make it out of the series alive. (call it a gut feeling since I don't have much more concrete proof than whats been debated here) And remember that the protection that Lilly gave Harry happened when she sacrificed herself for him. It could be that this self sacrifice could be the "power the Dark Lord knows not." I mean, he clearly doesn't know squat about giving up ones life for a friend, he has no problem leaving his DEs out to dry. At any rate, I'm starting to think that perhaps the "love that will defeat LV" that people have been alluding to could be the act of Harry sacrificing himself for LV, thereby showing his Tom Riddle side what true "love" really is and allowing the Dark Lord to be defeated and destroyed once and for all. Just my two knuts.. ~Ev who still thinks all you need is love From stasiaskasia at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 17:41:39 2003 From: stasiaskasia at yahoo.com (stasiaskasia) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:41:39 -0000 Subject: Why the veil? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77825 I think that the reason for using the veil is quite simple. One of my favorite books, "Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase & Fable" (originally published in 1870), says: "Veil, Beyond the: The unknown state of those who have departed this life." I am a member of the pre-personal computer generation when the only real outlet for a child's curiosity was the printed word. I can remember seeing innumerable references to "piercing the veil" and "beyond the veil" as I grew up and read anything I could lay my hands on. As a newcomer with moderated posting privileges, this information may have appeared a dozen times by now. As I hadn't had this particular book off the shelf for some time, I inevitably ended up browsing and came across the following under "werwolf": ". . .Its skin was proof against shot or steel unless the weapon had been blessed in a chapel dedicated to St. Hubert. . . ." This makes me suspect, initially at least, that the "silver bullet" to kill the werwolf may have been a later contamination because, again citing "Brewer's," the precious metal silver "Among the alchemists, represented the moon" and "With silver weapons you may conquer the world: The Delphic ORACLE to Philip of Macedon, when he went to consult it. Philip, acting on the advice, sat down before a fortress which his staff pronounced to be impregnable, `You shall see,' said the King, `how an ass laden with silver will find an entrance.'" Really makes me wonder whether Wormtail's newly acquired silver hand will indeed be significant. St. Hubert died in 727 and is the patron saint of huntsmen. He is usually depicted as a bishop with a miniature stag resting on the book he carries or as kneeling before a stag bearing a crucifix. A passing thought, not yet clearly defined: whether it is significant that Harry's patronus and his father's animagus form were a stag. Kasia From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 18 17:55:30 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:55:30 -0000 Subject: Lily - Snape. An AGGIE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77826 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > SHIPs are the source of endless fascination for the more romantically > minded in the Group, others, miserable old misogynist curmudgeons that > we are, tend to sigh and pass on to the next post. But I feel that > there should be a similar form of harmless entertainment for us too. > > So why not explore the relationships that are never to be, the > one-sided passion that is doomed to wither unrequited as the targeted > party make their excuses and leave - hurriedly. It helps if reasons > are given for the ultimate failure of love to conquer all; that way we > can all nod sagely at the pathetic efforts of a cock-eyed Cupid to > ensnare the unsuitable. Oh wonderful idea! So much angst so little time. > Of course, the Lily - Snape AGGIE has been the subject of many posts, > with many fans speculating that Snapey had a thing for Lily. I've > searched the canon and have found absolutely zero evidence or even the > slightest hint that this is the case. Maybe it's the other way round, > with Lily having a pash for ole Sevvie. But so far as I can see > no-one has explained just why romance never blossomed. First of all Snape calls her a mud-blood, never a good thing to do. And second. Well, he's not that good looking is he. Oh, I admit that I have a very twisted little crush on him but I think if you stood the palid and thin Snape next to the good looking James or Sirius I think the outcome would be obvious. Second of all whats all this about no evidence of Snapes crush on Lily. I picked that up after PS. Have you people heard of LOLLIPOPS (Love of Lily left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus). Full explination can be found in Hypothetic Ally. Amy From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 18:17:24 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:17:24 -0000 Subject: Gay Wizards and the W(real)W ? (was: Re: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote:...Originally, it was not supposed to be a gay thread...In fact, the main point was this : since we don't know yet, people are just free to depict Harry that way if they want. Some seemed a bit confused with that very idea. I personally don't understand why, but hey, that's just my opinion...AAm (straight, but who cares ?). The Sergeant Majorette says: Right, then: let's get this vehicle back on track. I'm not a "shipper" of any kind, but it does seem to me that in the speculative fan fiction I've read, the Harry/Draco relationship comes across most natural. The canon Harry/Cho thing was extremely awkward, like watching an actor who's a notorious flamer romance a woman. Ick! Squick! Eeew! And from my observation, there are few things more damaging to a teenage girl's fragile ego than being hit on by a guy everybody knows is gay but the guy himself. Look at how everybody is so down on poor Cho for being unstable! Cho seemed to me from the beginning to be a red herring, as if she was there only to prove that Harry is straight, even if he doesn't respond to Ginny or Hermione in a typical teenage-boy way. For me, that was what put the bug in my ear about Harry's sexuality. He is said to notice her because she is pretty, but what about the Patils? What are they, chopped liver? Harry is too damaged to sustain a conventional relationship without a severe strain on the female's nerves. If, as seems likely, JKR plans to touch on most aspects of adolescent struggle, we are going to see Harry question his sexuality; however, if the kissing scene with Cho is any indication, nobody's going to get naked, so don't worry. Oh, and watch out for Spongebob. That's a very subversive cartoon there; change the channel after the theme song... --JDR From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 18 18:18:15 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:18:15 -0000 Subject: Lucius Death in 6 or 7? ( was: Will Draco get out in Time?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77828 Margaret wrote: I don't see Draco coming to any great spiritual epiphany,... (snip) Marikas response: (Snip) ... He obviously thinks very highly of his father and wants to please him. He knew from the very beginning (snip) that he wanted to be in Slytherin, like the rest of his family. He does what's expected from him. He trust his father to know what's best for him, because that's what matters to Draco - what's best for himself. Therefore I believe that if Voldemort turns out to be bad for Lucius, Draco might realize that Voldemort is bad for himself as well. So if something happens to Lucius (besides having to spend some time in Azkaban) and Voldemort is the one responsible, I can see Draco's image of the world (including what's right and wrong) collapsing. Now me: Very interesting. Something is going to have to turn Draco around, shift his perspective and enable the four houses of Hogwarts to unite. His anger right now at Harry for his father's imprisonment is huge. It makes me wonder if the two will ever unite to fight a common goal? What ever it is, it has to be huge for Draco, just as whatever turned Snape had to have been huge. It makes me speculate on the potential for Lucius Malfoy's death in book 6 or 7. As we know Lucius is going to spend time in Azkaban, not long I imagine. Either his own influence will get him out or the lack of Dementor support at the prison will facilitate the early release of the DE's. But let's assume LV is less that pleased at loosing the Prophecy and loosing to Harry Potter again! And Lucius was in command of the retrieval of the orb from the Department of Mysteries. This is an assumption, of course, but I base it on the fact that Lucius must have found himself in an very awkward position of having to explain to LV (at the end of GoF) why he choose to save his own skin instead of coming to look for the injured Voldemort and thus had to prove his loyalty to LV again. It was just plain stupid for Lucius Malfoy to put himself in a raid of the MOM. The risks of him being caught easily out way the personal benefits to himself, and Lucius Malfoy is only interested in what is good for him. So for Lucius to agree to so reckless an act, he simply could not say no. Well, as we know the mission failed for the DE's, LV lost almost all of what is left of his entire army. Only Bellatrix got out, with LV's help and who else is left? Wormtail? I imagine LV is pretty damn angry. Who's to say he won't take his anger out on Lucius Malfoy and kill him? It would let Draco see his image of the world collapsing, as Marikas pointed out above. Allow Draco to shift allegiances enough to work with Harry. Just a thought. Mandy, disapointed in her own theroy as I would hate to see the end of Lucius Malfoy! From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 18:24:20 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:24:20 -0000 Subject: Getting the secret out... PP instead of SB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: Me: > Did PP give Serius a series of notes to give to the > appropriate people telling them where J&L were hiding? If he > didn't, how did they know where to find them? Ravenclaw: > Instead of re-posting I'll refer you to my post #77733. It was in > response to Arya's post #77728. I think her post ties in with this > post, especially the theory about Frank Longbottom (for those who > are skipping around and missed that thread). Me again: Yes, I read that post. I'm not talking about how he told LV - I agree LV probably made PP go with him; not necessarily to make sure he got it right, but to force PP to witness James and Lily's destruction. What I wondor is how members of the order found out where they were. I would assume they had 3 or 4 options before they cast the fidelius, and then informed the secret keeper of that choice. Since the charm was cast only shortly before they were killed, I would assume Harry was directly protected by it, meaning that for Hagrid to rescue him, Hagrid had to know the location. That, of course, means someone told Hagrid where they were - yes, we know Dumbledore sent him, but since Dumbledore was not the secret keeper, he couldn't have told Hagrid where to go - just that he needed to go! So this all begs the questions of how the order was informed of the location, without anyone finding out that PP was the secret keeper instead of SB. We know DD wrote out the location of Grimauld Place to give the Harry, or he would not have been able to enter. Did PP similarly write down the location of the hiding place, and then deliver it to everyone else, giving the impression that SB sent him? From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 18 18:31:21 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:31:21 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Family (was Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77830 > > Personally I doubt Neville's plant is bad. Somebody with knowledge > > would have spotted it by now - time to go back and see if there are > > any references to this type of plant in previous books. > > > Hickengruendler wrote: > I also think Neville would know this. He is good in Herbology and > likely to recognize a dangerous plant. I think the point is the plant Mimbulus Mimbletonia is good. Possibly holding the cure to his parents insanity. His family might not realise this and if Neville is so good with plants he is able to create a new cure for them. Mandy From pentzouli at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 18:34:04 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:34:04 -0000 Subject: A question about Legilimency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77831 Hey all, I wonder if you could help me with this question: I have been reading another thread about legilimency, and the same question I had while reading the book popped up immediately: While many think that Lupin (and Dumbledore) can read minds via legilimency, they seem to do it in a very silent way. No wands, no pronouncing any words. Nothing but constant eye-contact (at least that is how I feel when I get the impression that someone reads another's mind), that certainly is not making the object of legilimency crawl over the floor, like it happens with Harry and Snape. I think that Voldemort is also using a rather silent method to read and penetrate Harry's mind (while he is asleep in most cases). Now, how is it that Snape is using such an obvious method to penetrate Harry's mind and more important, if legilimency is a dengerous art just because it is silent, how is it that Snape does not make Harry understand this first of all? He allows Harry to use spells to repel his penetration, but what use can this have when someone is invading in your mind in your sleep? IMHO, the method used by Snape to teach Harry Occlumency has nothing to do with the method that is actually used when practicing Legilimency. What I am trying to say is that I don't think that Harry will ever learn to block his mind to outside penetration with the method Snape is using to attack him. I'd be delighted to read your comments or any enlightening answers to my question. holly_phoenix_11 From hieya at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 18:38:18 2003 From: hieya at hotmail.com (greatlit2003) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:38:18 -0000 Subject: Snape's son at Hogwarts?!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77832 "There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see them [the thestrals]: a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on his face, and Neville..." (OoP, US hardcover, 445) "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him..." (p. 640) JKR doesn't use the word "stringy" too often. (I don't recall seeing that word in the book series before, if anyone *has* seen it, please let me know). So when she uses it twice in the same book, I am suspicious. The boy wore a disgusted expression on his face. For me, this is an important clue, because JKR repeatedly mentions Snape's habitual sneers and smirks. If Snape has a son at Hogwarts, his position as a character will completely change. Perhaps he is not a spy for Dumbledore out of a sense of honor. Maybe he wasn't in love with Lily, or have some kind of vendetta against Voldemort. Perhaps he's just trying to protect his kid. Snape became a spy for DD circa 1980. I had previously assumed that this was somehow connected to Harry's birth in 1980. But what if it wasn't? If Snape's own son was born in 1980, he had a reason for stopping the violence. Maybe he had witnessed atrocities against other families, and he didn't want his own son mixed up in that. The possiblities are endless. And it also accounts for Dumbledore's trust in Snape. DD knows that Snape would never betray him, because by doing so he would be killing his own son. As for Snape's hatred for James, I have a feeling that the mysterious Florence was Snape's girlfriend, and maybe James killed her in his work for the Order. Maybe the boy witnessed his mother die, which is why he can see thestrals? If the boy is Snape's son, one might wonder why he isn't good friends with Malfoy, who clearly likes Snape? Maybe Snape has chosen not to tell anyone that the boy is his, because he is afraid that someone might harm him. The boy himself might not know. Maybe Snape would like to teach DADA so badly because he wants to teach his own son how to fight, without anyone suspecting that the two are related. Why doesn't Snape raise his own son? Maybe he's just afraid that he will be a bad parent like his own father was. He may not want his son to inherit his reputation and get picked on. More importantly, he may not want Voldemort to know he has a son, in case Voldemort wants to recruit him into the Death Eaters, or people like Malfoy try to befriend him. (I think that Snape dislikes the Malfoys deep down). Does anyone else think it's crazy that although there are only twenty kids in Harry's Potions and Care of Mag. Creatures class (the same kids too, year after year), and Harry still doesn't know their names? We only know Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dean, Neville, Seamus, Parvati, Lavender, Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, and Pansy. What about the other eight? But I digress. Any thoughts about this? greatlit2003 Snape Daddy: name has a nice ring From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 18 18:38:28 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:38:28 -0000 Subject: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77833 Laura: Now wait a minute. We read in canon more than once that James and sirius were popular. Bullies tend not to fit that description. So I would deduce that their bad behavior was directed at people who were out of line in some obvious way. And we know that James straightened up by the time he was 16 (or else he couldn't have been a candidate for Head Boy when he was 17). Once he did that, Sirius would probably have cooled out himself, since he held James in greater esteem than anyone else (and he would have lost his favorite co- conspirator). We just don't have the whole picture of the James/Sirius-Snape relationship. And now it looks like we never will. Now me: Bullies can be very popular. And some of the most popular kids in school are often the worst bullies. Power corrupts especially in teens. However, I do agree that James and Sirius were both good boys who grew into good men. They were the Kings of Hogwarts and once they learned compassion they shaped up. Mandy From molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 18:39:25 2003 From: molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:39:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Getting the secret out... PP instead of SB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818183925.64028.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77834 meltowne: > > > Did PP give Serius a series of notes to give to > the > > appropriate people telling them where J&L were > hiding? If he > > didn't, how did they know where to find them? > meltowne(from a second message): > Since the (fidelius)charm was cast only shortly before they were killed, I would assume Harry > was directly protected by it, meaning that for > Hagrid to rescue him, > Hagrid had to know the location. That, of course, > means someone told > Hagrid where they were - yes, we know Dumbledore > sent him, but since > Dumbledore was not the secret keeper, he couldn't > have told Hagrid > where to go - just that he needed to go! > > So this all begs the questions of how the order was > informed of the > location, without anyone finding out that PP was the > secret keeper > instead of SB. We know DD wrote out the location of > Grimauld Place > to give the Harry, or he would not have been able to > enter. Did PP > similarly write down the location of the hiding > place, and then > deliver it to everyone else, giving the impression > that SB sent him? Kathryn: It's nice they you're trying to find an explanation, but I think you've actually found a flint. Since Peter has gone completely to the dark side, I don't think he would have told the Order where the Potters were because it would probably get him in trouble. Lupin, Sirius or both said in the Shrieking Shack that they thought there was a Mole in the Order so they probably told Peter not to tell the Order the location because someone could report to Voldemort. I doubt Peter told anyone other than Voldemort that Lily and James were at Godric's Hollow. Therefore, there is no way that Dumbledore could know the location and tell Hagrid. So, unless there is something we don't know about the Fidelius Charm, that's a mistake. Nice find, Kathryn __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 18:47:41 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:47:41 -0000 Subject: A question about Legilimency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "holly_phoenix_11" wrote: > Hey all, I wonder if you could help me with this question: > > I have been reading another thread about legilimency, and the same > question I had while reading the book popped up immediately: > While many think that Lupin (and Dumbledore) can read minds via > legilimency, they seem to do it in a very silent way. No wands, no > pronouncing any words. Nothing but constant eye-contact (at least > that is how I feel when I get the impression that someone reads > another's mind), that certainly is not making the object of > legilimency crawl over the floor, like it happens with Harry and > Snape. I think that Voldemort is also using a rather silent > method to read and penetrate Harry's mind (while he is asleep in most > cases). Now, how is it that Snape is using such an obvious method to > penetrate Harry's mind and more important, if legilimency is a > dengerous art just because it is silent, how is it that Snape does > not make Harry understand this first of all? He allows Harry to use > spells to repel his penetration, but what use can this have when > someone is invading in your mind in your sleep? > > IMHO, the method used by Snape to teach Harry Occlumency has nothing > to do with the method that is actually used when practicing > Legilimency. What I am trying to say is that I don't think that Harry > will ever learn to block his mind to outside penetration with the > method Snape is using to attack him. > > I'd be delighted to read your comments or any enlightening answers to > my question. > > > holly_phoenix_11 You have to start somwhere I'd say. If Harry continued on with his occlumency lessons and practiced more, Snape might have introduced the more subtle methods of mind reading. On the other hand, Snape is a superb Occlumens, his skills at Legilimency are never noted but isn't it interesting how it's always hard for Harry to think about Snape at times that he has to stop? ie. the end of PS/SS and the end of OoTP. Maybe a bit of a bonus in occlumency is not only being able to block your thoughts from others, but to also be able to prevent people from thinking about you or anything related to you. -Sophineclaire From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 18:49:49 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:49:49 -0000 Subject: Harry "always gets away with stuff" (Was Re: Defending Ron ?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77836 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > wrote: > >>>Harry could no more help blowing up Aunt Marge, as hard as he > tried, than Ron could ever help his ears turning red when he's > upset.<<< > > Me: > > >>>annemehr: In justice, uncontrolled magic should never be > punished.<<< Snape here: I agree. > Me: I disagree. If Harry had started punching or kicking Aunt Marge > when he lost his temper, it would have been just as wrong as what he > did. Snape here: Harry did not think of making his aunt swell to enourmous proportions, but if he had gotten up and started kicking her then he would be guilty of premeditation. The magical oops was brought on by his temper, and he did fail to keep his anger in check, but he did not pull his wand out and scream "humongusize" at his aunt. This should be a know brainer, he didn't try to make it happen, and that is that. I agree with Fudge, Harry should walk on this. What if Harry had a dream and lashed out and magicked something, should he be punished for this nocturnal emmission of magic? Severus "don't tell Harry" Snape "I would have to be fair all the time" From rredordead at aol.com Mon Aug 18 18:57:06 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:57:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's son at Hogwarts?!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77837 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "greatlit2003" wrote: > "There were only two other people who seemed to be able to see them > [the thestrals]: a stringy Slytherin boy standing just behind Goyle > was watching the horse eating with an expression of great distaste on > his face, and Neville..." (OoP, US hardcover, 445) > > "Snape-the-teenager had a stringy, pallid look about him..." (p. 640) > > JKR doesn't use the word "stringy" too often. (I don't recall seeing > that word in the book series before, if anyone *has* seen it, please > let me know). So when she uses it twice in the same book, I am > suspicious. > > The boy wore a disgusted expression on his face. For me, this is an > important clue, because JKR repeatedly mentions Snape's habitual > sneers and smirks. If Snape has a son at Hogwarts, his position as a > character will completely change. Perhaps he is not a spy for > Dumbledore out of a sense of honor. Maybe he wasn't in love with > Lily, or have some kind of vendetta against Voldemort. Perhaps he's > just trying to protect his kid. > > Snape became a spy for DD circa 1980. I had previously assumed that > this was somehow connected to Harry's birth in 1980. But what if it > wasn't? If Snape's own son was born in 1980, he had a reason for > stopping the violence. Maybe he had witnessed atrocities against > other families, and he didn't want his own son mixed up in that. The > possiblities are endless. And it also accounts for Dumbledore's trust > in Snape. DD knows that Snape would never betray him, because by > doing so he would be killing his own son. > > As for Snape's hatred for James, I have a feeling that the mysterious > Florence was Snape's girlfriend, and maybe James killed her in his > work for the Order. Maybe the boy witnessed his mother die, which is > why he can see thestrals? > > If the boy is Snape's son, one might wonder why he isn't good friends > with Malfoy, who clearly likes Snape? Maybe Snape has chosen not to > tell anyone that the boy is his, because he is afraid that someone > might harm him. The boy himself might not know. > > Maybe Snape would like to teach DADA so badly because he wants to > teach his own son how to fight, without anyone suspecting that the > two are related. > > Why doesn't Snape raise his own son? Maybe he's just afraid that he > will be a bad parent like his own father was. He may not want his son > to inherit his reputation and get picked on. More importantly, he may > not want Voldemort to know he has a son, in case Voldemort wants to > recruit him into the Death Eaters, or people like Malfoy try to > befriend him. (I think that Snape dislikes the Malfoys deep down). > > Does anyone else think it's crazy that although there are only twenty > kids in Harry's Potions and Care of Mag. Creatures class (the same > kids too, year after year), and Harry still doesn't know their names? > We only know Harry, Hermione, Ron, Dean, Neville, Seamus, Parvati, > Lavender, Draco, Crabbe, Goyle, and Pansy. What about the other eight? > But I digress. > > Any thoughts about this? > > greatlit2003 > Snape Daddy: name has a nice ring I love it! Can it hold up..:-) Only one thought right now: James doesn't have to have killed Florence. (Although it does raise the stakes if he did.) He could just be the boy kissing her behind the greenhouses. That would certainly feed Snape's hatred of the 'arrogant' James Potter. I'll continue to mull on your interesting theory. Mandy From pentzouli at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 19:03:50 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:03:50 -0000 Subject: A question about Legilimency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77838 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sophineclaire" wrote: >> On the other hand, Snape is a superb Occlumens, his skills at > Legilimency are never noted me, holly : In terms of dividing Occlumency and Legilimency equally, I would say that Snape's inclination would be Legilimency, as it is an offensive art, related to the Dark arts that he so fancies, but eventually he would have to learn Occlumency as well, in order to keep his identity and his real thoughts away from minds that should not know about them, as Malfoy's and Voldemort's. What I am concerned about is how can he teach Harry anything, when all he does seems merely an exhibition of how great a Legilimens he is, but leaving Harry weakened and more fragile than he was before the lesson. "sophineclaire" wrote: >>but isn't it interesting how it's always > hard for Harry to think about Snape at times that he has to stop? ie. > the end of PS/SS and the end of OoTP. me, holly : I don't follow you here, I'm sorry. Could you elaborate? Thanks holly_phoenix_11 From pegruppel at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 19:04:02 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:04:02 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77839 Ravenclaw Bookworm wrote: > A good explanation for how Voldemort got his wand back, too. > > This could also tie into the theory that Frank Longbottom witnessed > the attack on the Potters. (Cross reference: thread starting with > #77595 / Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow). If both > Pettigrew and Frank Longbottom witnessed the attack, that would > explain why the Death Eaters thought the Longbottoms knew where > Voldemort was - Pettigrew would have told them he saw Frank there. > Possibly Pettigrew hid so that Frank didn't see him, but he saw > Frank. Now Peg: Ravenclaw--thanks for the cross reference--I never would have found it on my own, and I *love* the reasoning behind that theory. It makes perfect sense in terms of canon and explains some apparent inconsistencies very nicely. I never take anything in the Potterverse at face value. I've eaten so much red herring in this series, I should grow gills . . . Cheers all! Peg From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Mon Aug 18 19:04:44 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:04:44 -0000 Subject: A question about Legilimency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77840 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "holly_phoenix_11" wrote: holly_phoenix_11: > While many think that Lupin (and Dumbledore) can read minds via > legilimency, they seem to do it in a very silent way. No wands, no > pronouncing any words. Nothing but constant eye-contact (at least > that is how I feel when I get the impression that someone reads > another's mind), that certainly is not making the object of > legilimency crawl over the floor, like it happens with Harry and > Snape. > IMHO, the method used by Snape to teach Harry Occlumency has > nothing to do with the method that is actually used when practicing > Legilimency. What I am trying to say is that I don't think that > Harry will ever learn to block his mind to outside penetration with > the method Snape is using to attack him. Marika: You could be right, but I actually think it's the other way around. How can you learn to defend yourself from something you can't detect? If Snape uses a method to make Harry aware of the intrusion, he can practice blocking it, and once he knows how to do it, he can use this method when needed. Maybe there are ways of sensing the silent legilimency as well, but first you have to get familiar with the feeling. It seems like Snape is capable of using legilimency silently as well ("I suggest, Headmaster, that Potter is not being entirely truthful" CoS p 109), so maybe that had been the next step if the lessons had continued. Marika From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 19:16:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:16:47 -0000 Subject: UK vs US Harry Potter - Cookies In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77841 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > What *I* wondered about is the scene where Harry has been sent to > see Prof. McGonagall with a pink note from Umbridge, and McG says: > > "Have a biscuit, Potter." > "Have -- what?" > "Have a biscuit," she repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin > of /cookies/ lying on top of one of the piles of papers on her > desk. "And sit down." [emphasis mine, quote from ch. 12] > > What does the UK edition say where US has "cookies"? > > Annemehr > whose first thrill of joy (after actually cracking OoP) came in the > second paragraph, in which "...the soles of his TRAINERS were > peeling away from the uppers." bboy_mn: The Cookie/Biscuit- UK edition leaves out the words '...of cookies...'. I assume that was for us Americans who are too stupid to know that a biscuit is a cookie. Although, even if you don't know that, does it really matter if she is offering him a cookie or a small piece of bread? "Have a biscuit," she repeated impatiently, indicating a tartan tin lying on top of one of the piles of papers on her desk. Trainers- Is your vision of 'trainers' something that a very very young child might wear? Perhaps a child who has not yet been trained to properly deal with common bodily functions? (Is that subtle enough?). Just a thought. bboy_mn From rmatovic at ssk.com Mon Aug 18 19:20:25 2003 From: rmatovic at ssk.com (Rebecca M) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:20:25 -0000 Subject: Wizards, witches, warlocks, and hags ... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77842 Rather than just re-reading OotP, I'm circling back and re-reading PoA, GoF, then OotP ... when Harry is staying at the Leaky Cauldron at the beginning of PoA, it talks about the clientele passing through the inn and mentions warlocks and hags as distinct types of people -- any thoughts on how they might differ from witches/wizards? Is there canon on this that I've overlooked? I haven't looked at the magical creatures book for a very long time (can't even remember the title!), but my misty recollection is that it doesn't discuss the types of magical humans in detail -- if I'm remembering that right (and I realize it's not up to par for the list to be posting while not checking canon on something like this), I think it's interesting because I'm convinced that the denouement of the series will turn on a radical reshuffling of the relationships between the differnt categories of humans (muggles, wizards, elves, giants, etc.) Rebecca From aimking0110 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 19:24:29 2003 From: aimking0110 at yahoo.com (Garrett) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:24:29 -0000 Subject: Wizards, witches, warlocks, and hags ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77843 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca M" wrote: > Rather than just re-reading OotP, I'm circling back and re-reading > PoA, GoF, then OotP ... when Harry is staying at the Leaky Cauldron > at the beginning of PoA, it talks about the clientele passing > through the inn and mentions warlocks and hags as distinct types of > people -- any thoughts on how they might differ from > witches/wizards? Is there canon on this that I've overlooked? > > I haven't looked at the magical creatures book for a very long time > (can't even remember the title!), but my misty recollection is that > it doesn't discuss the types of magical humans in detail -- if I'm > remembering that right (and I realize it's not up to par for the > list to be posting while not checking canon on something like this), > I think it's interesting because I'm convinced that the denouement > of the series will turn on a radical reshuffling of the > relationships between the differnt categories of humans (muggles, > wizards, elves, giants, etc.) > > Rebecca I think Warlocks are just the Wizards in a high postition of power. Garrett From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Aug 18 19:24:57 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:24:57 -0000 Subject: Lily - Snape. An AGGIE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amy_marblefeet" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: > > SHIPs are the source of endless fascination for the more > romantically > > minded in the Group, others, miserable old misogynist curmudgeons > that > > we are, tend to sigh and pass on to the next post. But I feel that > > there should be a similar form of harmless entertainment for us too. > > > > So why not explore the relationships that are never to be, the > > one-sided passion that is doomed to wither unrequited as the > targeted > > party make their excuses and leave - hurriedly. It helps if > reasons > > are given for the ultimate failure of love to conquer all; that way > we > > can all nod sagely at the pathetic efforts of a cock-eyed Cupid to > > ensnare the unsuitable. > > Oh wonderful idea! So much angst so little time. > > > Of course, the Lily - Snape AGGIE has been the subject of many > posts, > > with many fans speculating that Snapey had a thing for Lily. I've > > searched the canon and have found absolutely zero evidence or even > the > > slightest hint that this is the case. Maybe it's the other way > round, > > with Lily having a pash for ole Sevvie. But so far as I can see > > no-one has explained just why romance never blossomed. > > > Second of all whats all this about no evidence of Snapes crush on > Lily. I picked that up after PS. Have you people heard of LOLLIPOPS > (Love of Lily left Ire Polluting Our Poor Severus). Full explination > can be found in Hypothetic Ally. > > Amy Plenty of theories: *NO* canon. The romantically inclined let themselves go over the top hoping that evidence would turn up later. So far it hasn't. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 18 19:25:13 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:25:13 -0000 Subject: Harry "always gets away with stuff" (Was Re: Defending Ron ?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "C M" wrote: > Me: I disagree. If Harry had started punching or kicking Aunt Marge > when he lost his temper, it would have been just as wrong as what he > did. Not holding him responsible for Magic he does in the heat of > anger would send the message that it's "okay," that because he's a > wizard, he deserves preferential treatment. And while many in the WW > would agree, the prevailing attitude of their government seems to be > on the other side of that fence. > > I personally don't think there was anything sinister in Ron's remark. > Harry *does* get away with stuff (Aunt Marge, flying when Madame > Hooch left in SS), but that's not a bad thing, is it? I assume that > most of us cheer for him at those moments (as Ron and the rest of > Weasleys did in OOP). He's the hero, we want things to go his way. > > CM, who loves it when things work out in Harry's favor. Geoff: I get the impression that, when Harry has been angry or frightened, magic has happened which he has not expected: finishing up on the school roof; re-growing his hair; the glass in the zoo disappearing. He was annoyed with Aunt Marge but there is no indication that he intended her to inflate. Had the Sirius Black situation not arisen, perhaps he would have had to appear before the MoM (not one hopes the entire Wizengamot!). Second, with the broom incident, who started it? Draco. Harry was trying to protect Neville from this buffoon and, in so doing, needed to follow him. OK, somebody tell me that two wrongs don't make a right but Draco needed to be shown that he wasn't the only kid on the stick. From rlai1977 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 16:17:18 2003 From: rlai1977 at yahoo.com (RP) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:17:18 -0000 Subject: Is Draco worse than James Was? (was: Does SSthink of DMas the son he never had) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77846 RB said: > I read the scene where Draco meets Harry on the train in 2 different > ways: > 1. Harry is the one who defeated Voldemort. As a Death Eater, he > might have told Draco to make friends with him to get his "power" on > their side. Think of how people would react if "The Boy Who Lived" > became buddy-buddy with one of He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named's followers. > 2. Draco knew that Harry had been away from the wizarding world and > wouldn't know how to get around in it. He might have planned to > become Harry's mentor and gain some of Harry's notoriety. And I > don't mean in the sharing-kind of way that Ron does. Remember the > Slytherins are known for their cunning and ambition. I've read quite a number of posts proposing that 11-year-old little Draco was being *strategic* when trying to befriend Harry, that he was trying to *recruit* Harry to the dark side, because he knew Voldermort would uprise again when the rest of the WW, his father likely included, did not have such "faith"? I find this truly absurd.. for the 100% canon reason of Draco's attempt to befriend Harry, I quote JKR's words in an interview she gave in 1999: Yes It was as simple as that! Draco wanted to be Harry's friend MERELY because "it would be cool to turn up at the school being Harry Potter??s friend because Harry's so famous". RP From prongs at marauders-map.net Sat Aug 16 21:46:09 2003 From: prongs at marauders-map.net (prongs) Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 17:46:09 -0400 Subject: Why is everyone surprised at Harry's Patronus? Message-ID: <000101c365c0$0f8b27d0$e7b0bd3f@bettysue> No: HPFGUIDX 77847 huge snippage Pruneau: But he chose the Patronus, so I assume that very few people (only Lupin, Hermione, and maybe Snape, Ron and Sirius) knew it was a stag. So IMHO, the Quidditch Patronus was just a (large) silvery wisp of vapour. Pruneau Now me, silver stag: I think it was corporial during the quidditch match. There wasn't any interference from real or fake dementors so it may have been easier, but more importantly is this from Chapter 22, when Dumbledore's talking to Harry just after Prof. Lupin leaves. Last night Sirius told me all about how they became Animagi," said Dumbledore, smiling. "An extraordinary achievement -- not least, keeping it quiet from me. And then I remembered the most unusual form your Patronus took, when it charged Mr. Malfoy down at your Quidditch match against Ravenclaw. You know, Harry, in a way, you did see your father last night.... You found him inside yourself." One of my favorite quotes, but apart from that it shows, imo at least, that Harry's patronus was distinct during the match. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Aug 18 19:37:13 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:37:13 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77848 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" > wrote: > > > See this is where I start to get confused. > > "Nose against the window". So THIS person can see a house just not > > who is in it. Those who haven't been told the location of the HQ > > can't see the house. > > > > I'm guessing that it all depends on precisly how the secret itself > is > > worded. The Potter's secret only hid THEM since from what Flitwick > > said it did not neccessarily hide thier HOUSE. The HQ IS a house > and > > so the whole thing becomes hidden. That's the best I can come up > with > > so far. > > This would perhaps explain why James and Lily couldn't be their own > secret keepers. If someone can't see you because they haven't been > told the secret, how can you tell them? Someone who is not being > hidden must tell them. > > Dumbledore is able to be the Order's secret keeper because it is the > house, not DD who is being hidden. > > My questin is how Dumbledore, Hagrid, and anyone else knew where the > house was? Hagrid had to be let in on the secret to be able to get > Harry after the attack, but Hagrid didn't really know much in terms > of details. > > Did PP give Serius a series of notes to give to the appropriate > people telling them where J&L were hiding? If he didn't, how did > they know where to find them? A thought from CW: The killing of Lily and James perhaps instantly destroyed the effect of the Fidelius charm ? And as the house was apparently also reduced to rubble as part of the attack, presumably any number of witches and wizards in the Godric Hollow area would immediately be able to see what had happened and send owls to all and sundry ? I posted a few week's ago something I had found in 'Quidditch through the ages' (76289), that Godric's Hollow had close associations with the history of Quidditch (it was where the Snitch was invented), so although it was perhaps not an all-wizard village like Hogsmead, there may have been quite a few wizards settled there because of this tradition, many of whom may have been close neighbours of Lily and James, even though they couldn't see them temporarily whilst the Fidelius charm was protecting them. I thought it was a very appropriate place for James to want to live anyway. From freddie_mac1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 18:19:24 2003 From: freddie_mac1 at yahoo.com (freddie mac) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 11:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: <1061224966.13207.51730.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030818181924.81697.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77849 > > > Ravenclaw Bookworm: > > > I'm curious. Where did the idea that Harry might be > > > gay come from? > > > The only person he seems to notice romantically is > > > Cho. I don't > > > remember any particular description of a male student > > > that would indicate Harry was interested. > > IMHO, Harry has *waay* too much stuff going on in his life to worry about dating/relationships right now. I really can't see him going beyond dances/trips to Hogsmeade until Voldie is defeated, or at least the Voldie-related activity dies down. Think about it: here's a 15-year-old who's been saddled with a lot of responsibility for the past five years; has seen an acquaintaince die; found his godfather and saw him "disappear" (die); found out that he (and he *alone*) is the savior of the wizarding world. Add to this the fact that he personally has been close to death a number of times, plus the problems faced by a typical 15-year-old (not that Harry's typical), and what Harry needs is a really good friend who can help him deal with all of this crap. Maybe Ron & Herm fit the bill here, or maybe someone else will, but Harry needs to get his head straightened out. Besides, would *you* want to date someone who is interested in "The Boy Who Lived", or would you prefer to wait for someone who's interested in Harry Potter? How many possible dates would simply be interested in TBWL (and how much would the Daily Prophet pay for a scoop on "My Date with TBWL"?)? Harry's pretty good at juggling the school/quidditch/world-saving stuff, but I don't think there's enough room for relationship stuff at this time. Freddie (who thinks the sexual ship won't even be relevant until books 8 & 9) __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 19:41:53 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:41:53 -0000 Subject: Getting the secret out... PP instead of SB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > What I wondor is how members of the order found out where they were. > I would assume they had 3 or 4 options before they cast the fidelius, > and then informed the secret keeper of that choice. Since the charm > was cast only shortly before they were killed, I would assume Harry > was directly protected by it, meaning that for Hagrid to rescue him, > Hagrid had to know the location. That, of course, means someone told > Hagrid where they were - yes, we know Dumbledore sent him, but since > Dumbledore was not the secret keeper, he couldn't have told Hagrid > where to go - just that he needed to go! Yes! Yes, see??? This is what I can NOT figure out. If ONLY PP knew how to find the Potters, even if the HOUSE was in plain view, then How did Hagrid (and whoever else showed up in those missing hours) manage to find James and Lily's bodies (unless the charm is broken at death) and Harry? (Who was alive so if the death/charmbreak is true would have been INVISIBLE.) Melpomene (my brain hurts!) From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 19:46:47 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:46:47 -0000 Subject: Getting the secret out... PP instead of SB In-Reply-To: <20030818183925.64028.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Kathryn Wolber > > Since the > > Since Peter has gone completely to the dark side, I > don't think he would have told the Order where the > Potters were because it would probably get him in > trouble. > Lupin, Sirius or both said in the Shrieking Shack that > they thought there was a Mole in the Order so they > probably told Peter not to tell the Order the location > because someone could report to Voldemort. > I doubt Peter told anyone other than Voldemort that > Lily and James were at Godric's Hollow. > Therefore, there is no way that Dumbledore could know Even if the order DID know the location--let's assume this legendary spy said to Dumbledore; "P.Pettigrew told voldemort that the potters are at godrics hollow and we're going to get them on halloween"--if what we think we know about this charm is true it wouldn't have mattered a damn. Because he didn't hear it from PP HIMSELF, Hagrid should have wandered all over those smoldering ruins and found nothing. No bodies, no Harry. Melpomene who started all this and is regretting it From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Mon Aug 18 20:13:02 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:13:02 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizards, witches, warlocks, and hags ... References: Message-ID: <001301c365c5$22294ac0$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 77852 From: Garrett To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com <<>>> at the beginning of PoA, it talks about the clientele passing > through the inn and mentions warlocks and hags as distinct types of > people -- any thoughts on how they might differ from > witches/wizards? Is there canon on this that I've overlooked? > <<>>> Rebecca I think Warlocks are just the Wizards in a high postition of power. Garrett ---------------------------- Warlock is actually defined as 'oath-breaker', and as hag is another derogatory word, I would think they were more the rougher, subclass of the WW. Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 20:15:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:15:50 -0000 Subject: Why the Veil? 'I'll be Back' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lavaluvn" wrote: > > My question is: why did JKR use the veil for Sirius' (sniff) death? > I ask because because my husband ... had the reaction - "oh he'll be > back" ... > > I know everyone quotes JKR on how death is final, etc, etc, no one > can come back. ...edited... > > ...edited... > > > Thanks, CAG bboy_mn: Let's make a distinction here- There is a big difference between someone coming back into the story and someone coming back from the dead. I say Sirius is dead; completely, totally, finally and forever dead, but I also believe he will be back. He can come back to the story without coming back from the dead. He'll be back, as in - a.) Harry goes into the veil and talks to Sirius. b.) Harry pulls back the veil and sees Sirius on the other side, and while standing on the 'life' side, he talks to Sirius who remains on the death side. c.) Flashback as in the pensieve scene in Snapes office. d.) more pensieve scenes. e.) Long rambling late night coversations with Lupin or some other person during which we gain a very very deep insight into Sirius. f.) Harry crosses over to 'the other side' where he remains for eternity, but has just enough time for a farewell from beyond that veil which resolves and closes the story. The end. Fini. Finis. The veil as a plot device- I think part of the reason for using the veil to kill Sirius as opposed to a mortal curse wound that would allow a nice heartfelt death bed scene, is that real life rarely allows us those 'heartfelt death bed scenes' where everyone confesses all, all conflicts are resolved, everyone says 'I love you' and everyone part sad but satisfied. Real death catches us by suprise, and is it so often pointless, no time to say 'goodbye' or 'I love you'; we just go about our daily lives then suddenly the loved one we took for granted is gone. Hopeless and irreversably gone. I think JKR intentionally wanted to leave us with a very unsatisfying unresolved death. I think she wanted to (figuratively) throw us into outer space and leave us hanging in the emptiness. I think she wanted it to be a death that we could hardly believe, because when people we love are lost forever, it is hard to believe; a death that leaves us stunned and confused. Where is Harry's resolution in this death? Where is his chance to say goodbye? Where is his chance to morn the loss? Where is his chance to view Sirius's body one more time, a chance to memorialize him, to eulogize and pay tribute to him? There aren't any of these things; just a pointless, unsatifying, unresolved, confused, heartaching, gut wrenching, huge empty void where love used to be. I think this is the feeling JKR intended to leave a with; a pointless empty void. I also feel the the Veil was not a 'one trick pony'. I think it's important and it will play a very siginificant roll in the future. Just a few thoughts. bboy_mn From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Aug 18 20:19:12 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:19:12 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry "always gets away with stuff" (Was Re: Defending Ron ?...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <156172483095.20030818131912@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77854 Hi, Monday, August 18, 2003, 11:49:49 AM, severusbook4 wrote: > This should be a know brainer, he didn't try to make it happen, and > that is that. I agree with Fudge, Harry should walk on this. What > if Harry had a dream and lashed out and magicked something, should > he be punished for this nocturnal emmission of magic? So, you think any witch/wizard should be let off without any repercussions, if they cause harm to others through a magical "oops" brought on by anger/hate...? I'm not quite comfortable with this at all. I agree that it's not quite the same as planning an attack, but just saying: "It's okay, you didn't do anything wrong, it's not your fault", seems wrong somehow. Witches/wizards with the ability to do spells without a wand could use this to get away with murder, so to speak. The circumstances need to be evaluated, and the "oops" magicer has to be made aware that this isn't just okay. Maybe there is a difference as to how instances like this are treated between adults and underage wizards/witches? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From EnsTren at aol.com Mon Aug 18 20:19:59 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:19:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Wizards, witches, warlocks, and hags ... Message-ID: <13.20faa779.2c728eef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77855 In a message dated 8/18/2003 4:15:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, crashing.boar at ntlworld.com writes: > From: Garrett > To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com > <<>>> at the beginning of PoA, it talks about the clientele passing > >through the inn and mentions warlocks and hags as distinct types of > >people -- any thoughts on how they might differ from > >witches/wizards? Is there canon on this that I've overlooked? > > > <<>>> Rebecca > > I think Warlocks are just the Wizards in a high postition of power. > Garrett > > ---------------------------- > > Warlock is actually defined as 'oath-breaker', and as hag is another > derogatory word, I would think they were more the rougher, subclass of the WW. > > Dawn > Perhaps it used to mean oath breaker and now it means politician? Or something of the sort Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 18 20:33:25 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:33:25 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Damit Lazarus" wrote: > None of the characters "scare" me. I believe that Lord Voldemort > claims to be really powerful, but he can't beat up a kid with > glasses. The DeathEaters paniced when Harry and LV were "dueling". > Yea that whole group is scary when they outnumber a 14 year old boy > 30 to 1. And they ( the Deatheaters" )tried to run when Dumbledore > showed up at the MOM. They are a scary group when picking on the > helpless and hopelessly outnumbered. Actually, the character that > is the most dangerous is Cornelius Fudge. He is in a position of > power and misuses his office to persecute a 14 year old and deny the return of LV and his DE's. Misinformation can be quite deadly. I totally agree that it's hard to see Voldemort and the DE's as scary anymore. After their failed attempt to manage Harry and Co., I'm finding it harder to buy that the Second War will be as scary and devastating as the first apparently was. The build-up of the fear factor was so convinicing in the first four books, especially the end of GOF (with three years to ponder the meaning of it all). Now, Voldy is half-human, the DE's are aging and seem to be ambivalent about their loyalty. Except for Bellatrix and Crouch Jr. who are believeable in their obssession with the "cause", I don't buy that any of the other DE's are back for reasons other than fear. I suppose the scariest characters to me are the ones who act other than they *should* given their roles ---Fudge for the reasons mentioned above. Umbridge for her total disregard of the law. Percy for putting principles ahead of people. Jen (formerly known as Ariadne, who wanted to come out of the closet!) From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 18 20:42:04 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:42:04 -0000 Subject: Harry "always gets away with stuff" (Was Re: Defending Ron ?...) In-Reply-To: <156172483095.20030818131912@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Monday, August 18, 2003, 11:49:49 AM, severusbook4 wrote: > > > This should be a know brainer, he didn't try to make it happen, and > > that is that. I agree with Fudge, Harry should walk on this. What > > if Harry had a dream and lashed out and magicked something, should > > he be punished for this nocturnal emmission of magic? > > So, you think any witch/wizard should be let off without any > repercussions, if they cause harm to others through a > magical "oops" brought on by anger/hate...? > > I'm not quite comfortable with this at all. > > I agree that it's not quite the same as planning an attack, > but just saying: "It's okay, you didn't do anything wrong, > it's not your fault", seems wrong somehow. > > Witches/wizards with the ability to do spells without a wand > could use this to get away with murder, so to speak. > > The circumstances need to be evaluated, and the "oops" > magicer has to be made aware that this isn't just okay. > Perhaps there is something equivalent in the WW to the distinction between murder and manslaughter. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 20:49:47 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:49:47 -0000 Subject: Lucius Death in 6 or 7? ( was: Will Draco get out in Time?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Margaret wrote: > I don't see Draco coming to any great spiritual epiphany,... > (snip) > > Marikas response: > (Snip) > ... He obviously thinks very highly of his father and wants to please > him. He knew from the very beginning (snip) that he wanted to be in > Slytherin, like the rest of his family. He does what's expected from > him. He trust his father to know what's best for him, because that's > what matters to Draco - what's best for himself. Therefore I believe > that if Voldemort turns out to be bad for Lucius, Draco might realize > that Voldemort is bad for himself as well. So if something happens to > Lucius (besides having to spend some time in Azkaban) and Voldemort > is the one responsible, I can see Draco's image of the world > (including what's right and wrong) collapsing. > > > Now me: > Very interesting. Something is going to have to turn Draco around, > shift his perspective and enable the four houses of Hogwarts to > unite. His anger right now at Harry for his father's imprisonment is > huge. I've always been surprised at Draco's lack of ability to see the big picture, history, or cause and effect, in cases where he is angry at Harry but doesn't realize that Draco's parents helped cause Harry's parents' deaths; he mocks Harry with the dementors but doesn't realize why Harry reacts so, again thanks to Draco's parents; he milks problems with Hagrid as much as he can even though it was Draco's own inattention that got him injured by Buckbeak; he reminds Harry on the train how there were sides to pick and Harry (and Cedric, unknowingly) were on the wrong one, without thinking 'well Harry wouldn't logically want to be on the side that killed his parents'; most ridiculsouly, he tells Harry "I'll kill you" for having caused Malfoy Sr. to go to prison, when Harry's never expressed anything of the sort to Draco for his parents' having caused the Potters' DEATHS! This last part is too ridiculous. I wish someone would point out to him, You know, your dad and the Death Eaters caused Harry Potter's parents' deaths, did you notice? and see if he ignores or scoffs it off or has half a brain cell enlightened... A.J. From bookhound1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 20:47:44 2003 From: bookhound1 at yahoo.com (Lynda Pringle) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 13:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry "always gets away with stuff" (Was Re: Defending Ron ?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818204744.7809.qmail@web41503.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77859 Harry does get away with stuff that would result in expulsions of other students and it's irritating how he is favored. I'm surprised that the other students don't complain about the inequity of the punishments meted out. Of course, the punishment meted out by Umbridge makes up for the other times Harry got away with stuff. Lynda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Mon Aug 18 20:37:33 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:37:33 -0000 Subject: Getting the secret out... PP instead of SB In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77860 --- Melpomene wrote: > > Even if the order DID know the location--let's assume > this legendary spy said to Dumbledore; "P.Pettigrew > told voldemort that the potters are at godrics hollow > and we're going to get them on halloween"--if what we > think we know about this charm is true it wouldn't > have mattered a damn. Because he didn't hear it from > PP HIMSELF, Hagrid should have wandered all over those > smoldering ruins and found nothing. No bodies, no Harry. I guess I have to side with CW's theory -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77848 -- that the deaths of James & Lily (possibly coupled with the failed attempt to kill Harry, or the destruction of the house) broke the charm. If Peter had told Hagrid or Dumbledore of the Potters' location, it would have been impossible for them to go on believing (as at least Hagrid and apparently DD still did until the climax of PA) that Sirius was the one who betrayed the Potters. I suppose slips of paper conveyed from Peter to Sirius for delivery, a la DD's in OP, would work in theory, but it seems farfetched -- wouldn't a recipient wonder why Sirius would write it down, and mightn't someone like DD be attentive enough to recognize Peter's (doubtless ratlike) handwriting? Also, the news spread *so* fast that it seems unlikely that the perception of what had occurred was limited to a few people. From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 20:29:23 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:29:23 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: <20030818181924.81697.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77861 Freddie wrote : > IMHO, Harry has *waay* too much stuff going on in his life > to worry about dating/relationships right now. I really > can't see him going beyond dances/trips to Hogsmeade until > Voldie is defeated, or at least the Voldie-related activity > dies down. You mean, assuming Voldie is bound to be defeated (after all, it may never happen). As Harry just doesn't know if he will survive or not at the end of book 7 (well... his POV may be a little bit different but the main idea remains the same), he *should* definitely worry about that too. > Think about it: here's a 15-year-old who's been saddled > with a lot of responsibility for the past five years; has > seen an acquaintaince die; found his godfather and saw him > "disappear" (die); found out that he (and he *alone*) is > the savior of the wizarding world. Add to this the fact > that he personally has been close to death a number of > times, plus the problems faced by a typical 15-year-old > (not that Harry's typical), and *what Harry needs is a > really good friend who can help him deal with all of this > crap*. Things do not always correspond to what you need (he could easily *fall in love* without choosing it - well, actually, that's how it often works !). And remember, his power is the power of LOVE, not friendship (and love is not just a word. If so, then it's abstract and empty). > > Maybe Ron & Herm fit the bill here, or maybe someone else > will, but Harry needs to get his head straightened out. > Besides, would *you* want to date someone who is interested > in "The Boy Who Lived", or would you prefer to wait for > someone who's interested in Harry Potter? How many possible > dates would simply be interested in TBWL (and how much > would the Daily Prophet pay for a scoop on "My Date with > TBWL"?)? Harry's pretty good at juggling the > school/quidditch/world-saving stuff, but I don't think > there's enough room for relationship stuff at this time. IMO the Daily Prophet will have a lots of things to write about VD's return so that it probably won't bother to report such a scoop as : "The Patils sisters are both hanging out with Harry Potter (aka: *the boy who lived*)!!!!!!! See the whole story on page four!". (And if I may add something : NOT all the girls are venal...) > > Freddie (who thinks the sexual ship won't even be relevant > until books 8 & 9) I have to admit that you got a point here. AAm (Looking forward to those books). From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 20:20:07 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:20:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: <20030818143044.58980.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > I like to read certain characters as certian ways. And > until JKR comes out and says 'Harry is straight' or > 'Harry is gay', then I will continue to read him how I > want. Just because you can doesn't mean you are right, or that others will like it when you express "divergent" opinions. If you express such views, don't blame the rest of us if you get a few flames. > I see him as a very confused boy afraid of any > sexuality. His relatives are not the best, as they do > not treat Harry well and show him what true affection > is. He obviously had no idea how to treat Cho both > before and after. I can see him as, in later books, > experimenting with another boy. I do not know how he > will settle later (but's it's fun to play). I don't see him as confused, but as simply without any models for a good relationship of any kind in his early life. (He was too young to get much out of his parents' relationshiop.) With no model for affection of any kind, it isn't surprising that he would not know how to act upon his own feelings or to react to others expressing affection (or whatever else) towards him. > And to severusbook4, if you don't like to read it, > don't. There is no canon either way for gay or > straight, especially after Harry says specifically he > was not moved by the kiss or the date. _And he says in > book four he was not sure if he liked Cho for being a > woman, herself or beauty, but for her Quiddich skills. > And what if Harry turns out to be bisexual and forms > the realization that it doesn't matter the sex of the > partner, just as long as it is love? He noticed her as being pretty first. Later confusion is a different matter. Harry did NOT say he was unmoved by the kiss or the date, apart from saying that the kiss was wet, and that the date didn't go well at all, we know that he was surprised and apparently desirous of the kiss, and very unsure of what he should (and shouldn't) do on a date. It all worried him. He didn't know what to do. This isn't unexpected for a teen boy who is entirely straight, and even less so for a boy with no model for what constitutes a healthy relationship, courting, or much of anything else, having been kept in a cupboard for most of his first eleven years. I remember very well my first kiss, and being very surprised by just how wet it was. We were both clueless, though, as it was also HER first kiss. It took a little experimentation before we decided that wet is good, but kissing in general was good no matter the moisture content. Thus far, Harry is portrayed very well as a heterosexual boy with little experience. That's it. If people want to read homosexual overtones into what has been presented thus far, it is no indication of his really being gay or bi, but of the character and predilections of those readers. From keltobin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 20:05:54 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:05:54 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77863 > A thought from CW: > > The killing of Lily and James perhaps instantly destroyed the effect > of the Fidelius charm ? And as the house was apparently also reduced > to rubble as part of the attack, presumably any number of witches and > wizards in the Godric Hollow area would immediately be able to see > what had happened and send owls to all and sundry ? I posted a few > week's ago something I had found in 'Quidditch through the ages' > (76289), that Godric's Hollow had close associations with the history > of Quidditch (it was where the Snitch was invented), so although it > was perhaps not an all-wizard village like Hogsmead, there may have > been quite a few wizards settled there because of this tradition, > many of whom may have been close neighbours of Lily and James, even > though they couldn't see them temporarily whilst the Fidelius charm > was protecting them. I thought it was a very appropriate place for > James to want to live anyway. I think the snitch invention is right on target with "what James family did to make so much money." I think there are further hints to this in "Snapes Worst Memory" when James is doodling a snitch, then later is playing with one outside. People have been wondering why James would be playing with a snitch when he was not a seeker... I think the reason is that he is showing off his family's importance and not his Quidditch position. Kelly From samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 21:04:32 2003 From: samwise_the_grey at yahoo.com (samwise_the_grey) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:04:32 -0000 Subject: Why the Veil? 'I'll be Back' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: *snip* > I also feel the the Veil was not a 'one trick pony'. I think it's important and it will play a very siginificant roll in the future. > Just a few thoughts. > bboy_mn I agree. After reading OotP I thought the Veil would be a good way to kill LV. Since he's so afraid of death it seems he would have to come back as a ghost and would still be troublesome if not harder to get rid of. Presumably the Veil would solve that problem. Of course that Veil could be used for anything, who knows? As for Sirius Harry still has that mirror so you just know it's going to come in handy. What I want to know is what's behind the door that wouldn't open? And why is it worth mentioning that Gryffindor and Slytherin were such good friends once? Is it possible they collaborated on something? Random thoughts. ~Samwise From keltobin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 21:05:32 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:05:32 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77865 > A thought from CW: > > The killing of Lily and James perhaps instantly destroyed the effect > of the Fidelius charm ? And as the house was apparently also reduced > to rubble as part of the attack, presumably any number of witches and > wizards in the Godric Hollow area would immediately be able to see > what had happened and send owls to all and sundry ? Sorry about the double post on this subject. I sent the first in haste before completing it. Here are a few points I have been pondering regarding the Fidelius charm on the Godric Hollow House. 1. If Lily and James dying lifted the charm then why wasn't Harry protected as well. Harry was still alive, so the death of the occupants being the charm would mean baby Harry was not part of the spell. Also, if the owner of the house being dead lifts the Fidelius charm, would that nullify the charm on Grimmauld Place now that Sirius is dead? 2. I think a key to this is the destruction of the house. We know from GoF (Chapter One: The Riddle House) that Avada Kadavra only kills the body when it hits (notice I say when it hits). It seems, however, that curses that don't hit a person can do quite a bit of destruction: "Another jet of green light flew from behind the silver shield. This time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces. . .(OoTP AM 814)" We also see some evidence of this is the graveyard scene in GOF when the gravestone cracks after being hit with a curse. I assume this is an effect of particularly strong curses or the walls of Hogwarts would be pockmarked with students missed attempts at each other. Therefore, I think that the destruction of the house shows that quite a bit more went on at Godric's Hollow that a clean and easy killing of James and Lily. 3. We know that the secret keeper can write the location and have that paper be handed over by a third party (OoTP "'Here,' Moody muttered, thrusting a piece of parchment toward Harry's Disillusioned hand and holding his lit wand close to it, so as to illuminate the writing. "Read quickly and memorize.' (OoTP AM 58)" There does seem to be a wording issue here as the note carefully spells out the "what" and "where" of the location. It is possible that the charm on James, Lily and Harry's house was something to the effect of: James and Lily Potter may be found at (address here) Godric's Hollow. This would make more sense if their death's did, in fact, nullify the charm. Whereas the wording of the Grimmauld is: "The Headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London (OoTP AM 58)." Under this logic it would take the dissolution of the Order of the Phoenix to break the charm and not simply the death of the owner. If a note such as this 2was made by Pettigrew upon becoming Secret Keeper, it would explain Sirius being at the scene. I can see the Potter's allowing their friend to know their whereabouts and that would mean he could visit the house without further ado. Since only Sirius, Peter and the Potters knew about the change in keepers, though, it does not explain Hagrid though. Here is the most logical explaination I can arrive at: Sirius, who was told the location by Peter, went into the ruins of the house and came out with baby Harry. He then turned Harry over to Hagrid (along with his motorbike). The other explaination is that JKR, while writing the first book, had no idea people would be picking it apart to this degree and it is simply an oversight... Kelly From jedimaster_alec at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 20:03:29 2003 From: jedimaster_alec at yahoo.com (not displayed) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:03:29 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77866 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" <: > > > > > See this is where I start to get confused. > > > "Nose against the window". So THIS person can see a house just > not > > > who is in it. Those who haven't been told the location of the HQ > > > can't see the house. > > > > > > I'm guessing that it all depends on precisly how the secret > itself > > is > > > worded. The Potter's secret only hid THEM since from what > Flitwick > > > said it did not neccessarily hide thier HOUSE. The HQ IS a house > > and > > > so the whole thing becomes hidden. That's the best I can come up > > with > > > so far. Me: This is just a thought: What if the Fidelus Charm can't hide you from people who already know where you are? What I suspect is that James and Lily switched to Peter Petigrew as sceret keeper "at the last moment", but Sirus helped with the preparations of the their stay in Godric's Hallow. So Sirus knew where they'd be-- maybe not the exact house address, but just the general township. So when he set out for Godric's Hallow, he didn't really know where they were, but was able to determine which was their house by the smoldering wreckage. By having Sirus know the township would sovle the problem of "How did he know where to go", while also not knowing enough to betray Lily and James should he be captured and tortured by LV or his Death Eaters. He could have also sent out an owl to Dumbledore before he set out for Godric's Hallow... and of course Dumbledore could have told Hagrid to go to Godric's and look for Sirus. -alec From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 18 19:51:05 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:51:05 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > > > The two wizards Voldy fears--DD and HP. Perhaps there is something > > about those two--something like pure GOODNESS? Something > > even "savior-like"? I realize that crosses over into the "world of > > religion" to say that, but it has occurred to me.... Maybe that goes > > too far, but I don't think it goes too far to suggest that Harry was > > powerful from the get-go, from *before* Voldy's attack. > > > > Susan > > I don't think Voldy fears Harry, not yet at least; certainly he didn't > act as if he did in the MoM fight. > > No, Voldy considers him an unmitigated pest who keeps getting > in the way and somehow avoids all attempts to swat him. A bit > like Sylvester and Tweety Pie. > > Kneasy Hmmm. That is something to consider--whether Voldy actually *fears* Harry or not. But are you sure he sees him only as a pest? I don't have my copy of GoF here with me at work, but I thought, during their duel, Voldy was *shocked* at how Harry was able to repel him. Yes, he's definitely a pest, but I think he has begun to realize that there is Something About Harry [to be feared]. Anybody else have an opinion about whether V. fears H. in any way??? Snapey Susan From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 19:28:30 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:28:30 -0000 Subject: Snape, Legilimency and end of "Prisoner of Azkaban" Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77868 Just one question : why didn't Snape used his Legilimency skills at the end of PoA to find out the thuth about Sirius and Peter (or to discover what happened after that ?) AAm. From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Mon Aug 18 18:15:46 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 18:15:46 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sister, Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77869 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dropaad" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" > wrote: > Is > > it possible that Petunia is a squibb? > > > Harry is a half-blood wizard. If Lily's family is all wizard than > that means James' family is muggle? I don't think so. Are the descendents of a squib still called a squib or are they muggles? There is some very old magic protecting Harry, Petunia and the rest of the family on Privet Drive. Dumbledore and Petunia are aware of a lot more then they are telling Harry at this time. And this magic runs in the families' bloodline. >From OoP we learn that the ministry does NOT keep track of squibs. If there was a squib descendent, for the sake of argument a great grandparent, this would increase the chances of a "witch in the family" Lily and Harry's Eyes may be the key to this puzzle. Neither Petunia nor Dudley seems to have these eyes. Lily may have inherited them from a witch or wizard in the families' distant past. >From SS we learn that witches and muggles marry. Seamus is "half and half". Seamus had the same chance of being a muggle instead of a wizard. Does that make him any less half muggle? Does the possibility exist that Seamus may have muggle (squib) children. And the opposite, if Seamus was a muggle, could he pass the wizard gene onto his children? Madeyesgal, in JKR's world, anything is possible. Lliannanshe (Who just realized she could reread Harry Potter over and over again for the rest of her life) From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 18 15:48:20 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 15:48:20 -0000 Subject: Hagrid and thestrals In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77870 > > gbannister10 writes: > > > > > Geoff: > > > > > > Additionally, in POA when Harry overheards the conversation > > > between McGonagall/Fudge/Flitwick/Hagrid in the Thre > > > Broomsticks ("The MArauder's Map" p.153), Hagrid says that he > > > pulled Harry from the ruins of the Potter house after > > > Voldemort's attack just after Lily and James were killed. Does > > > this imply that he must have seen their bodies? > > In 1981, when the Potters died, Hagrid used Sirius' motorcycle to deliver Harry. When he delivered Harry's letter in 1991, no bike was seen, but Hagrid tells Harry he "Flew" to the Hut-on-the-Rock. At first I thought Hagrid had a Flying Carpet that has recently been banned (GoF - Chap 7) in the WW (Hagrid ignors rules that doesn't suit him - eg. Norbert). He could have it conveniently folded inside the back of his overcoat (after all, no broomstick fits Hagrid). But now I am thinking he may have used a Thestral since it was a one- way flight. That would mean Hagrid trained Thestrals between 1981 and 1991. The death he saw may have been while in the Order (eg. Rosier, a DE, died rather than accept capture). aussie From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 18 14:38:53 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 14:38:53 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > > aamonn2000" : > > > > (1) You can replace *woman* by *man* if you believe that it > better > > > > fits Harry's taste. > > > Ravenclaw Bookworm: > > > I'm curious. Where did the idea that Harry might be gay come > from? > > > The only person he seems to notice romantically is Cho. I don't > > > remember any particular description of a male student that would > > > indicate Harry was interested. > > > Severus here: > > I really hope this does not become a pride fest saying that Harry is > gay. He obviously is not, since he is infactuated with Cho for a > short time, but he still finds her nice to look at. And he did look > at Hermione in a new light when she showed up at the ball with > Krum. I am slightly tired of the homosexual front reading gay > themes into everything from comics to cartoons that my children > watch, Sponge Bob comes to mind. Now don't get me wrong, I have no > problem with the alternative lifestyle of this group of people, (my > sister is, and I adore her partner) I just don't care for their "it > has to be in your face" policy. Sorry for the rant, just my honest > opinion. > > Severus "no thank you, I'm straight" Snape I don't doubt that Harry is straight, anything else is a very complicated type of characterisation that would take far too much time an effort and ditract from this type of story. HOWEVER - it is not uncommon for gay kids to have crushes on the opposite sex. Harry's feelings for Cho are rather mild and nebulous. It could easily turn out that once he settles into relationships with girls, Harry finds them unsatisfying or uncomfortable. Many gay kids have boyfriends/girlfriends they actually really liked before they hit on where their sexual orientation lies. Sexuality is a complex thing - especially when your sexuality is not the reinforced norm. I have had friends who occillated for years before settling into the their skin. When gay boys date girls it isn't always a coverup or a lie. Sometimes they really have feelings for the girl. I think it is just that straight boys don't experiment or wonder as much because their main sexual orientation is considered normal. Golly From soleta_nf at yahoo.ca Mon Aug 18 06:49:50 2003 From: soleta_nf at yahoo.ca (=?iso-8859-1?q?House=20Yolande?=) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 02:49:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818064950.97632.qmail@web40411.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77872 Arya said: > SNIP > I think this is a possibility because I see Peter as being made to go with Voldemort, at least to the house at Godric's Hollow to show him the location and break the charm (yes, I know he could have written it down, but I think Volde would make him come along). Peter then could have witnessed everything and after it was all done, have retreived the wand (maybe he even has other wands-- Lily's and James'???) > Also, it is evident that Voldemort has his wand back in GoF, after Peter returned to him and was with him. I am pretty certain that Fallen Voldemort could not possess and wield a wand so someone had to have saved it from the wrecjkage at GH and then given it back to him by the beginning of GoF (when the wand is used to kill Frank Bryce). There are only two options: Crouch and Wormtail (or anyone of several ESE: Snape, etc). As Crouch is dead and gone, I see Wormtail as the most likely candidate. Then Ravenclaw Bookworm said: > A good explanation for how Voldemort got his wand back, too. > This could also tie into the theory that Frank Longbottom witnessed the attack on the Potters. (Cross reference: thread starting with #77595 / Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow). If both Pettigrew and Frank Longbottom witnessed the attack, that would explain why the Death Eaters thought the Longbottoms knew where Voldemort was - Pettigrew would have told them he saw Frank there. Possibly Pettigrew hid so that Frank didn't see him, but he saw Frank. And Yolande responds: But if Pettigrew used Voldemort's wand, then wouldn't the Muggle victims of that attack have emerged from the wand at the end of The Goblet of Fire along with Harry's parents, Cedric, et al? Everyone who had died through the use of that wand emerged from it, starting with the most recent deaths. The scene with Sirius and Pettigrew happened after Harry's parents died; therefore, the Muggle victims would have come out of the wand before them, if in fact the wand had been used. Since they did not, it seems to me that this is solid proof that Pettigrew did not use Voldemort's wand. What do you think? Yolande --------------------------------- L?che-vitrine ou l?che-?cran ? Yahoo! Magasinage. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 21:29:55 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:29:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77874 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > I remember very well my first kiss, and being very surprised by > just how wet it was. We were both clueless, though, as it was > also HER first kiss. Actually, there is no reason to assume that. In fact, one thing Harry might have been worried about was how he might stack up to Cedric in the kissing department. Although Harry only saw Cedric and Cho holding hands while walking through the corridors, I think we've had ample evidence of other students snogging (Percy and Penelope, Roger and, well, any girl within spitting distance ) that it's quite likely that two students in fifth and sixth years who were seeing each other might have kissed. That pressure alone could be a very big reason why Harry didn't seem too thrilled with his first kiss--he was probably too busy worrying about being compared to Cho's late boyfriend to really enjoy himself. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 21:34:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:34:16 -0000 Subject: Wizards, witches, warlocks, and hags ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77875 ADVERTISEMENT --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca M" wrote: > ... when Harry is staying at the Leaky Cauldron ... PoA, ... and > mentions warlocks and hags ... -- any thoughts on how they might > differ from witches/wizards? Is there canon on this that I've > overlooked? > > ...edited.... > > Rebecca bboy_mm: This is a question we dealt with recently, but without much resolution. Wizard or Warlock- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/73992 It is quite clear that Harry knows a warlock when he sees one, and they are generally characterized as a little rough and rowdy. I speculated that it might be a regional/cultural distinction, but even I admit that it is a little weak. Points- Warlock: - Ernie Macillan can trace his ancestry back through 9 generations of warlocks. - there is both - - - International Confederation of Wizards (SS4, GF17) - - International Federation of Warlocks (PA3) - Perkins, who is Mr. Weasley's assistant is a warlock. - Dumbledore is Chief Warlock. - in the Leaky Cauldron, Harry sees "wild-looking warlocks". - In the Three Broomsticks, Harry sees a "bunch of rowdy warlocks". (from HP Lexicon http://www.hp-lexicon.org/titles.html#Warlock ) I think to draw any information on Hags we have to us formal definitions and mythology. Hag n. 1. An old woman considered ugly or frightful. 2.a. A witch; a sorceress. b. Obsolete. A female demon (Am Heritage Dic) I think the female demon is probably the most significant as I don't think Hags are considered very nice people. In mythology, the only thing I really know about Hags is that they typically eat children. Note that the Hag in the Leaky Cauldron orders a plate of RAW liver. Having said all that and what I said in my previous posts, I have to add that I don't think we really know what the distinction is. Just a thought. bboy_mn From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 21:39:06 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 21:39:06 -0000 Subject: Snape, Legilimency and end of "Prisoner of Azkaban" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77876 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" wrote: > Just one question : why didn't Snape used his Legilimency skills > at the end of PoA to find out the thuth about Sirius and Peter (or > to discover what happened after that ?) What makes you think he didn't? In fact, it seems quite possible that he DID, or else I don't see how to explain his accusation that Harry had something to do with Sirius getting away, although the thoughts he might have been accessing in Harry's mind might have been quite jumbled at the time, due to the number of things he'd just been involved in, including conjuring a Patronus to get rid of a huge number of Dementors. (I think many of us used to assume that he automatically blamed whatever he could on Harry, but his reading Harry's mind is far more plausible, really, given that he CAN do it.) Dumbledore might also have been using HIS Legilimency skills to communicate with Sirius and put the kibosh on any further accusations of that sort--to shut him up, in other words. We see that Snape is VERY frustrated about the way it all turns out, yet he stops pushing and storms off after Dumbledore says very little (aloud, that is). While rereading the first book with my daughter last night, I came on a part where Harry suspects that Snape can read minds. And now we know that that's true thanks to the fifth book! The Occlumency angle really puts ALL of the Harry/Snape interactions in previous books in an entirely new light, IMO. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From jkscherme at adelphia.net Mon Aug 18 22:37:16 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:37:16 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sister, Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77877 > > Lliannanshe: Are the descendents of a squib still called a squib or are they muggles? Me: If they chose to live in the muggle world, I assume the WW would refer to them as muggles (non-magic folk) unless it was known that they were really squibs (as in Mrs. Figg's case). > > Lliannanshe: There is some very old magic protecting Harry, Petunia and the rest of the family on Privet Drive. Dumbledore and Petunia are aware of a lot more then they are telling Harry at this time. And this magic runs in the families' bloodline. Me: Exactly! Until Book Five, we're unaware that there is any sort of magic at Privet Drive. Now that it's revealed, so much more is starting to make sense. We're also introduced to "squibs" at the same time. I think this is more important than just knowing that Mrs. Figg and Filch can't practice magic. > > Lliannanshe: From OoP we learn that the ministry does NOT keep track of squibs.If there was a squib descendent, for the sake of argument a great grandparent, this would increase the chances of a "witch in the family" Lily and Harry's Eyes may be the key to this puzzle. Neither Petunia nor Dudley seems to have these eyes. Lily may have inherited them from a witch or wizard in the families' distant past. Me: It would also explain why Lily's parents were so keen on the idea of having "a witch in the family." They obviously knew about the WW before Lily received her letter for Hogwarts. Lliannanshe: From SS we learn that witches and muggles marry. Seamus is "half and half". Seamus had the same chance of being a muggle instead of a wizard. Does that make him any less half muggle? Does the possibility exist that Seamus may have muggle (squib) children. And the opposite, if Seamus was a muggle, could he pass the wizard gene onto his children? Me: Genetics at work...of course it has to work that way! Me, again... this brings me to another question. Both of Hermoine's parents were muggles. How did they know about the WW? Did Hermoine read about the WW in a book, apply for a scholarship to Hogwarts through some sort of spell she found? Frankly, if my daughter had received a letter from a Witchcraft and Wizardry School, I'd have tossed it into the trash as a joke or fraud. Why did they pay attention? Why did any of the muggle parents pay attention? Lliannanshe, I could "live" in JKR's WW. I may never stop re-reading the books. madeyesgal From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 22:59:06 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:59:06 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sister, Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77878 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: > > > Shirley says: I'm sorry, I lost track of who "me" was in this thread..... and now for the relevant part of the thread: > Me, again... this brings me to another question. Both of Hermoine's > parents were muggles. How did they know about the WW? Did Hermoine > read about the WW in a book, apply for a scholarship to Hogwarts > through some sort of spell she found? Frankly, if my daughter had > received a letter from a Witchcraft and Wizardry School, I'd have > tossed it into the trash as a joke or fraud. Why did they pay > attention? Why did any of the muggle parents pay attention? Shirley replies: I don't have my book with me, but somewhere in book 5 it is said that when a witch/wizard is born, their name is recorded in a book at Hogwart's, so that the letter automatically goes out to them when they turn 11 (or are at the proper age to attend). So Hermione didn't have to know about the WW, but I guess her parents *would* have to suspend their disbelief. Or, since this is JKR's world, that wasn't a problem; muggle parents whose children get those letters just "go with the flow"! Shirley (who wonders if she would go with the flow if her almost-11- year-old daughter got a letter! ;)) From huntleyl at mssm.org Mon Aug 18 23:06:01 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:06:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP Message-ID: <047801c365dd$4b3b9680$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 77879 Garrett: >Ok why on God's green earth would you say that harry is gay? If it >has even crossed J.K. Rowlings mind she would have said nope, way to >much contreversy(i dont think thats how you spell it but,,,). If she >does make him gay she will lose a lor of fan's. Including me. >Garrett >P.S. I'm a christian and think this gay thread is evil! *blinks* You're joking, right? *looks around helplessly* It's a joke. Right? Frankly I'm appalled at the lack of *civility* that has been shown in HPFGU lately. I know I'm far from the last person to get excited and say something thoughtless, but some of you don't even seem to be *trying*. That said, while I don't think that Harry himself if gay, I don't rule out homosexuality as a possibility in the Potterverse -- esp. for other characters (witness Wormtail's fan-girl adoration of James). Furthermore, just because I don't think Harry is gay in *canon*, that doesn't mean I don't enjoy it in *fanon*. Fanfiction is a way to explore and experiment with our favorite characters. That means you can have fun with pairing that most likely will never happen in canon (such as H/D). > Severus: > I really hope this does not become a pride fest saying that Harry is > gay. He obviously is not, since he is infactuated with Cho for a > short time, but he still finds her nice to look at. And he did look > at Hermione in a new light when she showed up at the ball with > Krum. Um, *actually*...many gay boys (and girls) have heterosexual crushes and relationships, esp. before they have completely worked out their identity. Personally, I think hardly *anyone* is *completely* gay or *completely* straight (but that's just me). Plus, he could be bisexual. Harry is just so starved for love (esp. physical love/affection/*anything*), I think he'd take it anywhere he could get it. Anyway, let's try for the kind of polite, thought-provoking conversation HPFGU is famous for, okay people? ^_^ Laura (Christian, bisexual, AND and Harry Potter fan, thankyouverymuch.) P.S. A great big "ME TOO!" to Golly's last post on this subject. P.P.S. *sees another Laura and waves* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 23:08:45 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:08:45 -0000 Subject: Snape, Legilimency and end of "Prisoner of Azkaban" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77880 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aamonn2000" > wrote: > > Just one question : why didn't Snape used his Legilimency skills > > at the end of PoA to find out the thuth about Sirius and Peter (or > > to discover what happened after that ?) > > What makes you think he didn't? In fact, it seems quite possible > that he DID, or else I don't see how to explain his accusation that > Harry had something to do with Sirius getting away, although the > thoughts he might have been accessing in Harry's mind might have > been quite jumbled at the time, due to the number of things he'd > just been involved in, including conjuring a Patronus to get rid of > a huge number of Dementors. (I think many of us used to assume that > he automatically blamed whatever he could on Harry, but his reading > Harry's mind is far more plausible, really, given that he CAN do > it.) > --Barb > Laura I think maybe too much is being made of this whole legilimancy thing. First, Snape: he's got quite enough on his plate without going around reading random minds. SS's hatred of Harry would lead one to believe that he'd want less contact with him, not more. And thinking of Harry would make him think of James, and we all know how he loves to do that. At the end of PoA, I don't think he was in any state to do any sophisticated magic, being in the midst of a major league hissy fit. He wouldn't want to know any exonerating evidence about Sirius. This is a guy who's fueled by hatred, anger and resentment. We've already seen a tiny bit of evidence in OoP that seeing the reality of Harry's childhood touches him, just for a moment. So if he's going to be vulnerable to feelings of compassion and understanding as a result of legilimency, I suspect he'd avoid it strenuously. As for Remus, I don't think he needs legilimency to "read minds". I think he's just a deeply compassionate person who truly tries to put himself in the place of the person to whom he's talking. All the intense looking he does at people while he's listening to them means he's trying to absorb all the clues he can in his effort to understand. Notice that he seems to be the peacekeeper at Grimmauld Place. He's able to calm people who are angry or upset (i.e., Sirius and Molly). And when he steps into an argument, it's usually after hearing everyone speak and giving them time to express their points of view. He rarely, if ever, has a bad word to say about anyone else- Sirius says he's not too happy with Umbridge, but we don't hear Remus himself saying anything. People listen to him. And that's probably because he listens to them. That kind of mind-reading is one we can all do! From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 18 23:10:15 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:10:15 -0000 Subject: Why the Veil? 'I'll be Back' In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lavaluvn" wrote: > > > > > My question is: why did JKR use the veil for Sirius' (sniff) death? > > I ask because because my husband ... had the reaction - "oh he'll be > > back" ... > > > > I know everyone quotes JKR on how death is final, etc, etc, no one > > can come back. ...edited... > > > > ...edited... > > > > > > Thanks, CAG > > > bboy_mn: > > Let's make a distinction here- > > There is a big difference between someone coming back into the story > and someone coming back from the dead. > > I say Sirius is dead; completely, totally, finally and forever dead, > but I also believe he will be back. > > He can come back to the story without coming back from the dead. > > He'll be back, as in - > > a.) Harry goes into the veil and talks to Sirius. > b.) Harry pulls back the veil and sees Sirius on the other side, and > while standing on the 'life' side, he talks to Sirius who remains on > the death side. > c.) Flashback as in the pensieve scene in Snapes office. > d.) more pensieve scenes. > e.) Long rambling late night coversations with Lupin or some other > person during which we gain a very very deep insight into Sirius. > f.) Harry crosses over to 'the other side' where he remains for > eternity, but has just enough time for a farewell from beyond that > veil which resolves and closes the story. The end. Fini. Finis. I am firmly on board with this. > The veil as a plot device- > I think part of the reason for using the veil to kill Sirius as > opposed to a mortal curse wound that would allow a nice heartfelt > death bed scene, is that real life rarely allows us those 'heartfelt > death bed scenes' where everyone confesses all, all conflicts are > resolved, everyone says 'I love you' and everyone part sad but satisfied. Well, I understand what you're saying here, but I think a good, old fashioned AK would have done the trick of making sure Sirius was instantly dead. As in dead, no goodbyes, no final messages, no teary death throe scene. He'd be just as suddenly, pointlessly and irreversibly gone. In that sense I think the death was written this way specifically to introduce the veil and give hints on what may be behind it. And, that's why the death struck me as too rigged, too convenient that the duel would take place right where it did and Sirius would fall in just the right direction to go through the veil. > I think she wanted it to be a death that we could hardly believe, > because when people we love are lost forever, it is hard to believe; a > death that leaves us stunned and confused. Leaving aside for the moment the role or use the veil may have in books 6 and 7, the whole lack of a body has caused confusion with some readers. A number of people (maybe those who are not quite as obsessive as a lot of us are) have posted on this list, and on other HP-related lists that they can't believe that this death is final. And, I'm not talking the SAD DENIAL people here. I'm talking about those folks who don't seek out JKR interviews and don't look for that information that has to be gleaned outside of actually reading the books. So, for these people, there isn't necessarily a stunned sense of loss and what this means to Harry. There's a sense of waiting for the other shoe to drop to see how JKR will bring Sirius back. > Where is Harry's resolution in this death? Where is his chance to say > goodbye? Where is his chance to morn the loss? Where is his chance to > view Sirius's body one more time, a chance to memorialize him, to > eulogize and pay tribute to him? I'm very interested to see how this is handled. I think, from previous posts, that you and I are on the same wavelength in thinking that Harry has suffered a certain lack of support by the adults around him and that the message he may internalize is that it doesn't pay to love anyone, because they will become targets. And, that becomes more likely the closer Harry gets to his ultimate show-down with Voldemort. > I also feel the the Veil was not a 'one trick pony'. I think it's > important and it will play a very siginificant roll in the future. Yes, either for someone finding out what goes on behind there, or perhaps making a journey through it. I think we've just scratched the surface of what goes on in the Dept. of Mysteries. Marianne From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 23:16:26 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:16:26 -0000 Subject: Lily - Snape. An AGGIE? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > SHIPs are the source of endless fascination for the more romantically > minded in the Group, others, miserable old misogynist curmudgeons that > we are, tend to sigh and pass on to the next post. But I feel that > there should be a similar form of harmless entertainment for us too. Mel starts sweating... Uh oh....I HATE SHIPS. Which means of course I'm about to get into big trouble. You can tell because not only have I read and re-read this post but I'm now *replying* to it.... Maybe it's the other way round, > with Lily having a pash for ole Sevvie. But so far as I can see > no-one has explained just why romance never blossomed. > The Snape character is a fascinating one for many posters; dark, > mysterious, forceful. Some girls would go weak at the knees when > confronted by a rampant Snape; me: Uh huh...yup...guilty... I'm listening go on... OH and did you HAVE to say 'Rampant Snape?' (steadies knees, wipes brow) > did Lily? After all, she made a public > scene when James had a go at him. What does that tell you? A soft >spot in Lilys' heart for the vulnerable heart-throb of the fifth >year, perhaps? I've been told that vulnerability in a male is >supposed to > attract females and here was a shy retiring lad, subject to >bullying, no idea of how to pick a decent shampoo and with sub- >standard laundry arrangements. Obviously, he needs some-one to take >care of him. Nowhere is there any evidence that Snape returned her >feelings. Here he was, struggling to excel in his exams and Lily >pushes herself into his life. You need good marks to be a Death >Eater; study hard, early nights, all that stuff. Meanwhile, >there's this love-struck female dogging his footsteps, following >him down to the lake, defending him in front of everybody. What can >a chap do? One should be polite, but that may cause >misunderstandings and encourage her. And her family! Who'd want to >marry into that!? So it was the hard word, the rejection. > Me: This, my friend, is growing on me. Really growing...roots spreading like that tiny struggling bergamot plant I set in this spring--the very one that I now spend half my time yanking stray sprouts out of the REST of the garden. It's everywhere! This "Non-SHIP" fits SO many of the pieces together. It could very well be the "really big thing" we learn about Lily in book 7. It could explain Petunia's "that awful boy" is. (Why would James, so vehemently against the Dark Arts of any kind be discussing Dementors with Lily? Of course the question remains why would Snape be hanging around Lily if he's outright rejected her, but let's run with this a while) It could even go towards explain Snape's adult attitude towards Harry to some extent. Not only that but it seems so true to character...Lily the charging into the rescue could certainly have been a "this will get him to notice me!" moment she has been waiting for. The teenage Snape's reaction to her attmept fits your description--as does his non-interest. It fits the criteria of being very close to a theory that's been kicked around from the start but that JKR has denied...while saying there is SOMETHING "we've" come close to but not got quite right yet. Oh and again...that interview...I'll find it...where she told us "You learn something important about Lily in book 5. You learn something REALLY important about her in book 7." Melpomene--who might change her mind but is thinking "by george, i think we've got it!" From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 23:26:27 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:26:27 -0000 Subject: Snape, Legilimency and end of "Prisoner of Azkaban", MD Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77883 Back from a two-month break from the list... I don't think I'll be reading the 17000 messages I missed during vacation. AAm wrote: <<< Just one question : why didn't Snape used his Legilimency skills at the end of PoA to find out the thuth about Sirius and Peter (or to discover what happened after that ?) >>> Barb replied: <<< What makes you think he didn't? In fact, it seems quite possible that he DID, or else I don't see how to explain his accusation that Harry had something to do with Sirius getting away >>> I find this point really interesting. There are several possibilities here, IMO. Firstly, as Laura just said, Snape was much too angry at Sirius, Lupin and the Trio to even try to use Legilimency in the Shrieking Shack. This is the most plausible variant, IMO. Secondly, it's possible that he *did* find out the truth about Pettigrew and Sirius just by "reading Sirius's mind," but chose to ignore that knowledge and arrange a date with a Dementor for Sirius anyway. (I think I'd be tempted to do that as well, had someone threated me like Sirius threated Snape. Or at least, I'd take pleasure in threatening them for a while). It's certainly possible. Thirdly (And you knew this was coming, right? ), Snape's (and Dumbledore's as well) Legilimency skills can be used to support MAGIC DISHWASHER. Unfortunately, I can't really expand on that. My MD knowledge isn't very in-depth. Barb continues: <<< I think many of us used to assume that he automatically blamed whatever he could on Harry, but his reading Harry's mind is far more plausible, really, given that he CAN do it. >>> All those times when Harry makes eye contact with Snape, definitely. I don't know if I like it better with the Legilimency or without it. Before, I'd tell eveyone who'd listen how smart and perceptive Snape is. At first, when I realized where Dumbledore was heading with the Occlumency lessons bit, I felt a little cheated. It subtracts from Snape's intelligence somehow. <<< The Occlumency angle really puts ALL of the Harry/Snape interactions in previous books in an entirely new light, IMO. >>> Oh, yes. And it also sheds new light on Snape/Dumbledore interactions, does it not? ---------- Snape: Headmaster, you must do something about Potter. He just tried to convince me that he hadn't visited Hogsmeade just now, but I know he had. I suggest you expell him. Oh, and you can fire Lupin as well - the werewolf was helping Potter. Dumbledore: Have a lemon sherbet, Severus. ---------- I bet they have these conversations all the time. Don't they do wonders for Snape's love of Dumbledore? Maria Alena From nansense at cts.com Mon Aug 18 23:34:06 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:34:06 -0000 Subject: Tolerance and contacting one's inner Umbridge (Was Re: Sex Pref SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77884 Severus "no thank you, I'm straight" Snape: I really hope this does not become a pride fest saying that Harry is gay. H= e obviously is not, ... I am slightly tired of the homosexual front reading g= ay themes into everything from comics to cartoons that my children watch, Sponge Bob comes to mind. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the alternative lifestyle of this group of people, (my sister is, and I ado= re her partner) I just don't care for their "it has to be in your face" policy. NOW madeyemood: Interesting, this idea of tiresome in your faceness. I imagine if I were a member of a sub-group (a Jew during the "holiday" season, for instance) I might feel compelled to express how tiresome I foun= d the assumption that I am a member of the majority. Merry Xmas for you, perhaps, but how can you possibly know about *me*? In these multicultural times the backlash seems to take the form of "oh, pl= ease, don't ask me to be politically correct." Well I say, whence this expectation that everyone submit to the norm. Is th= at considered remotely hip or interesting anymore? I imagine if one is gay or less conventional in one's self-definition in a = predominantly straight and somewhat identity prescribed world it rapidly becomes tiresome to consistently encounter the assumption of whatever norm. Whether or not one is straight one can still be bored/offended/annoye= d by the constraining of expressive options. I was reminded how, as a not officially partnered person, I tire of the imperative to procreate or be legally partnered. I don't understand what su= ch things have to do with health insurance or property acquisition, for exampl= e. My big question is: where does the entitlement come from to literally state "I don't want this = public forum to include discussions of whatever?" Since whatever happens to have been the gay topic more than once, I wonder how people can rationalize saying not only do I not want to bother t= o simply avoid the clearly labelled posts, I'd rather everyone think and talk= about this aspect of the books in a way that I enjoy rather than in a way t= hat's interesting to them. What nerve! Really, who cares about honoring anyone's phobias, gay or straight, Christi= an or Jew, TBAY, SHIP or FILK? In the context of this sort of forum, such a request is creeepily self-indulgent, and, I'm going to disagree with you he= re, Snape, inherently bigoted; no matter how you feel about gayness in general,= it's simply not appropriate or consistent with guidelines to ask people to = constrain their expression according to your proclivities.Further, it doesn= 't make sense given the ease with which your involvement can be sidestepped. In short, who cares what you care for, Severus. On a canonical note, this whole issue strikes me as rather Umbridgesque. No= actual Dark Arts, kiddies, could be seen as Please refrain from exploration= of the cultural shadow, listees. Perhaps we should all confine ourselves to theoretical discussions of how to avoid the need to post. I think JKR would find this whole outburst similar to mudbloodthirsty madne= ss and feel both amused and disappointed by our folly. > Garrett > P.S. I'm a christian and think this gay thread is evil! As for the comment by Garrett, is that sort of thing permitted? I find the = tone startling. Does this seem unfairly censorious of me? South Park's Museum of Tolerance comes to mind, all of a sudden. I know humans are in large part despicably obtuse, but I do my best to shine some = sort of light into this skanky dark discourse. I hope (maybe even pray) that my forthrightness has agitated just the right= amount. My goal is to illumine rather than to shame. This sort of discussio= n makes me fear for us muggles. Rather than collapse in fear, or elegantly sidestep, occassionally I attempt the reasonably assertive posture. madeyemood From melclaros at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 23:45:58 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:45:58 -0000 Subject: What's wrong with Remus?Was: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77885 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > SNIP > > Melpomene--who is really trying to like Lupin again after he > > dissapointed her so badly in OoP > > > Why were you disappointed with Lupin in OotP???? > He's one of my favorite characters and perhaps I expected too much of him. I was profoundly disappointed with him as a prefect during the bullying episode. I might have got past that given his age at the time, but he was given the job because he was thought more responsible than Sneerius and Snotter responsible--in fact Sirius even mentions near the beginning of the book that Lupin "got the badge" in the hopes he'd be able to reign in his buddies. *What a STELLAR job we witnessed!* I was disappointed with his adult reaction to the same event when Harry confronted them. Admittedly it was better than Sneerius' but then I've never been a fan of SB. THEN he said that he would go talk to Snape about continuing Occlumency lessons. One would hope he'd have attempted some feather smoothing however there is no evidence that he ever followed through with that chat. Melpomene--hoping Remus can redeem himself without kicking it. From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 23:47:58 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:47:58 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77886 Susan wrote: Perhaps there is something about those two [DD and HP]--something like pure GOODNESS? Susan Me: If you look up "phoenix" in FB, you'll find that Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart. Therefore, I guess Harry *is* pure of heart. James Redmont From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Mon Aug 18 23:49:26 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:49:26 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77887 Susan wrote: Perhaps there is something about those two [DD and HP]--something like pure GOODNESS? Susan Me: If you look up "phoenix" in FB, you'll find that Phoenix song gives courage to the pure of heart. Therefore, I guess Harry *is* pure of heart. James Redmont From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 18 23:58:24 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:58:24 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77888 Alec wrote: >>> This is just a thought: What if the Fidelus Charm can't hide you from people who already know where you are? What I suspect is that James and Lily switched to Peter Petigrew as sceret keeper "at the last moment", but Sirus helped with the preparations of the their stay in Godric's Hallow. So Sirus knew where they'd be>>> This isn't possible. Narcissa Black must have made visits to 12 Grimmauld Place as a child - she knows it well enough to be on close terms with the resident House Elf. From Kreacher's little Christmas visit, Narcissa and thus Lucius -> Voldemort will have worked out that the Order are using Number 12 as HQ. But they can't get at them in it, or even, apparently, in the surrounding area. Narcissa Malfoy could walk past her old childhood stomping ground a hundred times a day, *know* that it must be there, and yet not be able to get at the house at all without Dumbledore telling her so. Think you might be onto something with the bit about "guessing which house it was from the smouldering wreckage", though. Kirstini From erikal at magma.ca Tue Aug 19 01:06:46 2003 From: erikal at magma.ca (Erika L.) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 20:06:46 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: That damn Prophecy - 'either' Message-ID: <017901c365ee$2a007240$f88b1a40@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 77889 hg wrote: >Replace the pronouns similarly in >Sachmet's idea, post >75158: "...when I first read that I >understood it that Harry and >Voldemort will die. According to my >dictionary either can mean 'each >of two'. So I took it they both die." Erika L. wrote: > > It's true that in the expression 'on either side' 'either' means > 'both' : There was tension on either side = There was tension on > both sides. However, I don't think that 'either' has this sense in > any other context, and the dictionary doesn't give any other > example of the word having this meaning. In light of this, I don't > see how 'either' in the context of the prophecy can meaning > anything other than 'one or the other' T.M. Sommers replied: >In describing the stadium at the QWC, >Rowling mentions the goals at >either end of the field, so she is >certainly aware of this usage. I >also don't see how the example you cite is >significantly different >from the wording of the prophecy. I am >certain that Rowling chose to >use 'either' in the prophecy precisely >because it is ambiguous. me Erika (Wolfraven) I did not in any way mean to imply that JKR was unfamiliar with both meanings of 'either'. Both usages are current, so I'm sure she does know them both. My problem, however, is that I can't think of an example of 'either' meaning 'both' in a context that doesn't have some sort of spacial connotation. To my knowledge (and yes I realize I don't know everything ;) 'either' as 'both' _almost_ always occurs in the expression 'on either side'. Granted, that's not always the case, just the most frequent. Here's a link that provides a few literary examples: http://www.hyperdictionary.com/dictionary/either It's definition 1.2 and here are the examples: His flowing hair In curls on either cheek played. --Milton. On either side . . . was there the tree of life. --Rev. xxii. 2. The extreme right and left of either army never engaged. --Jowett (Thucyd). Each of these instances refers to location or position in one way or another. In the Milton quote the question is where is his flowing hair? On either cheek. In the quote from Revelations, where was the tree? On either side. The Jowett's Thucydides quote is a little different, but it still has a spacial connotation-- it's the sections of the army that are to the right and to the left that are the subject here. Look, I'm not an expert at grammar. I'm one of those people who knows how to write grammatically, but has trouble explaining grammar. What I'm asking is can anyone give me any example in which 'either' is used to mean 'both' in a context in which the subject relates to two people? "Either must die" That means either _person_-- Harry or Voldermort (or some other two depending on one's interpretation of the prophecy). The point is that it's either of two people; it's not one of two sides, areas, or sections, or anything like that. I just can't see 'either' meaning 'both' *in this context*. Best, Erika (Wolfraven) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 00:06:00 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:06:00 -0000 Subject: Snape, Legilimency and end of "Prisoner of Azkaban" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77890 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" While rereading the first book with my daughter last night, I came > on a part where Harry suspects that Snape can read minds. And now > we know that that's true thanks to the fifth book! The Occlumency > angle really puts ALL of the Harry/Snape interactions in previous > books in an entirely new light, IMO. I find the early descriptions of Snape's eyes as "dark tunnels" to be more interesting than the idea that certain characters suspect he can read minds. I remember wondering about those "dark tunnels" when I first read that. An odd description I thought, what's at the end of a dark tunnel? In Snape's case now we know. A locked door. Just what I suspected. Melpomene From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 00:17:37 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:17:37 -0000 Subject: Lucius/James/Ginny's age & birthdays Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77891 I was reading OoP (again!) over the weekend and picked up for the first time the fact that in the Daily Prophet article about Umbridge being installed as high inquisitor Lucius Malfoy is quoted as being 41. I know this has been picked up before but I thought it was interesting that this means he was 26 when Draco was born. Now from what I've read in the archives Lucius is presumed to be five or six years older than James and Sirius so that would make James only 20 or 21 when he had Harry. I always thought he was much older for some reason. Another thing that I found intersting towards the end of OoP is when Harry is trying to go to the MoM without Ginny, Neville and Luna. Harry tries to tell Ginny she is too young but Ginny says she is three years older than he was when he fought Voldemort for the PS. Harry was 11. So Ginny is still 14 on this day in June although we don't know what the date is. The reason I find this interesting is that Ron's birthday is 1 March. Which means Ginny's birthday must now be between mid/late June (depending on the date)because she hasn't turned 15 as of this time, and the end of September (which seems to be the cut off date for Hogwarts). I think my theory about Ginny's birthday being June 21 is looking shaky now! I was sure that other smashed prophecy "at the solistice will come another" referred to her but now I've got doubts. Any thoughts on this? LDP From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 00:21:47 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:21:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's ability to love (was: Re: Why the Veil? 'I'll be Back') In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77892 In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Where is Harry's resolution in this death? Where is his chance to > say > > goodbye? Where is his chance to morn the loss? > Where is his chance to > > view Sirius's body one more time, a chance to memorialize him, to > > eulogize and pay tribute to him? > "kiricat2001" wrote: > I'm very interested to see how this is handled. I think, from > previous posts, that you and I are on the same wavelength in thinking > that Harry has suffered a certain lack of support by the adults > around him and that the message he may internalize is that it doesn't > pay to love anyone, because they will become targets. And, that > becomes more likely the closer Harry gets to his ultimate show-down > with Voldemort. > Marianne Laura: The grownups around Harry have failed him dismally by the climax of OoP, that's for sure. But it looks like they've finally learned their lesson. (Of course, Sirius paid with his life for Dumbledore's cowardice, but that's another rant.) The scene at the very end where the group of adults from the Order lay down the law to the Dursleys is very encouraging. We can only hope that Harry is able to accept what they have finally realized they have to give. From lizcrosssmith at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 00:25:09 2003 From: lizcrosssmith at yahoo.com (Liz) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:25:09 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77893 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" > wrote: > > I don't think Voldy fears Harry, not yet at least; certainly he > didn't act as if he did in the MoM fight. > > > > No, Voldy considers him an unmitigated pest who keeps getting > > in the way and somehow avoids all attempts to swat him. A bit > > like Sylvester and Tweety Pie. > > > > Kneasy > > Hmmm. That is something to consider--whether Voldy actually *fears* > Harry or not. But are you sure he sees him only as a pest? I don't > have my copy of GoF here with me at work, but I thought, during their > duel, Voldy was *shocked* at how Harry was able to repel him. Yes, > he's definitely a pest, but I think he has begun to realize that > there is Something About Harry [to be feared]. > > Anybody else have an opinion about whether V. fears H. in any way??? > > Snapey Susan My two knuts: I would have to agree with Kneasy up until Harry's escape at the end of GoF. Up until then, Lord Thingy considered Harry a pest with the luck of the devil -- but nothing more than that. I think the whole priori incantatum thing, Harry's ability to resist Voldy's Imperius Curse and Harry's subsequent escape changed Harry's status a little in Voldy's mind. But not all that much. I don't have my books with me, but as I recall, Voldy and the DEs were taken aback by Harry's ability to resist the Imperius Curse. After that, as I recall, Lord Thingy stopped playing and started to take him seriously. In OotP, the EvilMeister didn't seem as ready to play with Harry, but pretty much just wanted to kill him right off. Mind you, he was in the MoM, didn't have much of an audience to impress and knew he didn't have all that much time. Maybe that accounted for the change, but Voldy did seem to take Harry a bit more seriously than in previous encounters. Regardless, Lord Thingy doesn't really see Harry as a threat -- doesn't really fear him as he does Dumbledore. Harry is young, inexperienced, cannot control his emotions, and wears his heart on his sleeve. To Voldy, all those things are weaknesses and leverage to be used against the boy. Liz From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 00:32:38 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:32:38 -0000 Subject: Giving Umbridge what she deserves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77894 We had some posts a little while back that suggested that Umbridge might be rehabilitated by the MoM so as to cover up the disasters she caused at Hogwarts. But...I'd like to suggest another fate. We all remember that she sent dementors after Harry without Fudge's knowledge or permission-and she admitted as much in front of a roomful of witnesses, bless her spiteful little heart. Shouldn't she be arrested, tried and sentenced to a nice long stretch in Azkaban herself? Laura, getting in touch with her vindictive side From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 19 00:34:04 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:34:04 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77895 Marina sits on a sun-warmed boulder near the waterline, watching Prank chase his tail in endless, futile circles. This is fairly routine activity for the pup, but Marina doesn't mind. It's cute to watch, and even a cat lover like herself enjoys playing with a big, frisky puppy once in a while. Marina whistles and snaps her fingers and whistles, and Prank runs over, tongue lolling, to put his shaggy head on her knee. Marina rubs behind his floppy ears as she listens to Kirstini expound her latest theory. > "Sirius planned the Prank in advance.", says Kirstini, after convincingly explaining why the timing just doesn't support the conventional "Peter tells Lily and Lily tells James" theory. >"Not necessarily to any great degree, but he had had it in mind for a while, just toying it over in > his mind - "yeah, wouldn't that greasy little slimeball like to know > the *real* reason we disappear at full moon, heh heh heh...", > something like that. However, at some point in his mind, it became a > little more solid, and he mentioned it to Peter. *Oh, great, yet another "Sirius attempted premeditated murder" theory,* Marina thinks with resignation, but decided to hold her tongue until she has heard the whole thing. > James must have grown up enough to > shoulder the responsibility of marriage and a family, and judging > from Sirius' behaviour in the Gryffindor fire, Sirius wouldn't have > liked this. I'm going to source this turn around as beginning > slightly before the Prank, because (am I right in thinking?) James > was already Head Boy at this point. At this point, Marina can't resist an interruption. "He couldn't have been Head Boy," she says. "We know from PoA that Sirius was sixteen when the Prank took place, therefore it must've been sixth year. Kirstini glares. "Now you're just being nitpicky. Even if James wasn't Head Boy yet, he must've started showing at least *some* leadership and maturity in sixth year in order for Dumbledore to choose him, so it's not much of a stretch that he would've started to turn around some time before the Prank, and that Sirius would've resented it." "Point taken," Marina sighs. "Do continue." >So he mentions it to Peter, whose > opinions don't really count, and who is stupid enough (Sirius thinks) > to think it a good idea. Peter, however, takes the idea a lot more > seriously than Sirius thought he would - as we've seen from the > werewolf question bit of the Memory, he has a history of doing this. > *Then*, events pan out as Derranimer suggested, and they change the > entire dynamic of the group. James and Lily are thrown together, > causing Sirius a lot of resentment, which he takes out on Wormtail. > Wormtail, subconciously decides that his first experiment in moral > behaviour hasn't really been a success, and it's back to the drawing > board on that one. Lupin is probably appalled by Sirius' behaviour - > it probably hits home to him a lot harder than to the others - and > here's the beginning of the seed sown by which they both suspect each > other and not Wormtail of being the spy. Sirius is isolated (this is > why I don't think James can have known in advance) and resentful for > some time, and instead of blaming it all on his own stupidity, > cyrstallises it into loathing of Snape, which is how we get to the > hospital scene in GoF and the kitchen confrontation in OotP. Sirius > didn't *hate* Snape before hand - his life had just never really been > of any consequence to him. Now he has a "valid" reason for all the > hatred we see - it's more of a hatred of equals than of bully and > victim. " > Kirstini stopped talking, finally, to scratch Prank lazily behind the > ears. "Wow," says Marina. "That's a good one. Most people are content with just blaming Sirius for every bad decision Snape ever made in his life, but you're saddling him with responsibility for all of Peter and Remus' mistakes, too. Forget Voldemort, sixteen-year-old Sirius was the true source of evil in the wizarding world. I bet if we try hard enough, we can pin the breakup of the Beatles and the hole in the ozone layer on him, too." "Sarcasm will get you nowhere," Kirstini smirks, unimpressed. "You want to shoot down my theory? Show me some canons." "You want canons? I'll give you canons. First of all, your theory doesn't really solve the timing problem. No matter how long Sirius might've premeditated the Prank, in the end you still have Sirius bragging to Peter, Peter running to tell Lily, Lily confronting James, and James dashing off to the rescue, all in less time that it takes for a very eager Snape to travel the length of the tunnel. Peter taking the time to think it over in advance shaves off at most a couple of minutes." "Yeah," says Kirstini. "But maybe they were the crucial couple of minutes that made all the difference." "Sounds shaky to me," says Marina. "And anyway, there are other points to consider. It's already been pointed out that Peter wouldn't have gone to a teacher, because that would be snitching. Trouble is, he wouldn't have gone to Lily for the same reason." "No way," Derrainmer puts in. "Going to a classmate, even a disliked one, is not the same as going to a teacher." "But Lily wasn't just a classmate," Marina points out smugly. "This is sixth year, remember? Lily was a *prefect.*" Kirstini shakes her head. "We don't know that. James' example proves that you don't have to be prefect in order to become Head Boy or Girl." "In theory, no," Marina agrees. "But do you really think Dumbledore would choose a notorious former troublemaker who'd never been prefect for Head Boy, and then pair him with a Head Girl who's never had any prefecting experience either? Why, they'd spend most of the year just trying to figure out the logistics of the job. That's a bit too inefficiently eccentric, even for Dumbledore." "Lily wasn't prefect in fifth year," Kirstini points out. "Otherwise she would've used her authority in the Pensieve scene." "True," says Marina. "But if you don't have to be prefect to become Head Girl, I don't see why you have to be prefect in fifth year in order to become one in Sixth. Fifth-year Lily showed willingness and ability to confront James and Sirius about their bullying -- something Remus failed to do, even though he was made prefect for precisely that reason. Whoever the female Gryffindor prefect was in fifth year, she didn't do much good in that respect either. Lily was the logical choice for the job in sixth year. And that puts her in a position of authority, and disqualifies her as someone Peter could run to without being branded a snitch." "Maybe," says Kirstini. "But you're still working on speculation here." "So are you," snaps Marina. "And anyway, I'm not done. Because in all your speculations about Peter's actions, you're forgetting the biggest and most obvious question." "Which is?" prompts Kirstini. "*Why didn't Peter go to Remus?*" There is a lengthy silence. Kirstini and Derrainmer look at each other,then at Marina, then at each other again. "That is a good question," says Kirstini after a while. "Remus would be the sensible choice..." "He's the blindingly obvious choice!" Marina yells. She's getting quite worked up over her own argument now. "He's the one who's being set up for a fall! He needs no explanations or advance groundwork to realize the gravity of the situation! He's guaranteed not to run to a teacher. And he's the only one who's in a position to stop the whole thing simply by going to Sirius and saying, 'don't do that, you moron.' If Peter knew about the Prank in advance -- long enough to ponder the moral implications and to carefully lay the groundwork for approaching Lily -- then he had plenty of time to warn Remus. If he didn't, it must've been because the Prank came into being on extremely short notice, at a time when Remus was already unavailable due to the full moon!" Marina stops and catches her breath, bending down to pet Prank, who is cowering at her feet, frightened by all the shouting. "I could also add," she mutters darkly, "that while Sirius is capable of doing extremely stupid and reckless things in the heat of the moment, he is far too intelligent to spend an extended period of time plotting a murder without ever realizing that he was, in fact, plotting a murder. But since it appears to be the fashion this year to deny Sirius any redeeming human qualities whatsoever, under any circumstances, I suppose it won't do much good. Come on, pup." She gives Prank another pat and gets up. "Let's go for a walk." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 00:41:02 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:41:02 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Giving Umbridge what she deserves References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77896 Laura: We had some posts a little while back that suggested that Umbridge might be rehabilitated by the MoM so as to cover up the disasters she caused at Hogwarts. But...I'd like to suggest another fate. We all remember that she sent dementors after Harry without Fudge's knowledge or permission-and she admitted as much in front of a roomful of witnesses, bless her spiteful little heart. Shouldn't she be arrested, tried and sentenced to a nice long stretch in Azkaban herself? Dan: I hope we see her again, and I think Azkaban would serve her right (except for the lack of dementors--she'd just be sitting in a cell with monochomatic robes, which is an ungodly punishment). If she were charged (which she should), perhaps add to the list child abuse (the quill) and attempted use of an Unforgivable curse (if that's illegal). [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Tue Aug 19 00:55:51 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 00:55:51 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory (kinda long) In-Reply-To: <200308181224.50183.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77897 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > Dracula goes out in daylight, if we are basing on wide-known references. > Isn't he vampire enough for you? > Should he have long fangs, a red cloak and sleep in a coffin for us to deduct? > Me: Surely you aren't implying that I lack all subtlety and imagination? I am more than capable of deducing that Snape is a vampire without him prancing around like Bela Lugosi. My conclusions are based on the assumption that vampires are categorically undead, and must drink the blood of the living to survive. Snape does not appear to meet either of these criteria. The fact that he goes out in daylight or sleeps in a bed does not prove or disprove anything. It merely adds to the overall impression that Snape does not behave in a way typically associated with vampires (folkloric and literary variations aside.) I happen to like some of the pro-vampire theories, but they seem to be based primarily on speculation, not actual evidence (insofar as you can have evidence in a fictional world where anything and everything can be explained by magic.) In contrast, the anti-vampire partisans have quite a few "known" facts which suggest that Snape is nothing more or less than a disgruntled human being. We don't know whether or not Snape is a vampire because JKR hasn't told us yet. As I said before, she can make her vampires do whatever she wants. It's her story, after all. But to me, it would be counterintuitive to construct a vampire character who bears little or no resemblence to what most of us concieve vampires to be. I suspect that much of the pro-vampire sentiment is based on aesthetic preference. I don't have any problem with that. I certainly don't let JKR's canonical descriptions of Snape as a greasy-haired snaggletooth intrude upon my, um...thoughts about Snape. >And I'd love you to find counterarguments that are not repeatedly > answered, it would be so fun. I'm not even a Snave-vampire one, but I'd > like for the theory to be disproved, and it isn't, so I'm playing the > opposite role. > > silmariel Me:I doubt there are any arguements that haven't been repeated a dozen or more times on this board. I'm sure you aren't asking me to prove that Snape isn't a vampire, as I'm sure you know it isn't possible. But if you'd like to give your own categorical definitions of what a vampire is, we could have some fun with Venn diagrams ;) Allyson From jkscherme at adelphia.net Tue Aug 19 01:06:44 2003 From: jkscherme at adelphia.net (Kristen) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:06:44 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sister, Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77898 *snip*>this brings me to another question. Both of Hermoine's > > parents were muggles. How did they know about the WW? Did Hermoine > > read about the WW in a book, apply for a scholarship to Hogwarts > > through some sort of spell she found? *snip* Why did they pay attention? Why did any of the muggle parents pay attention? > > Shirley replies: > I don't have my book with me, but somewhere in book 5 it is said that when a witch/wizard is born, their name is recorded in a book at > Hogwart's, so that the letter automatically goes out to them when > they turn 11 (or are at the proper age to attend). So Hermione > didn't have to know about the WW, but I guess her parents *would* > have to suspend their disbelief. Or, since this is JKR's world, that wasn't a problem; muggle parents whose children get those letters just "go with the flow"! > > Shirley (who wonders if she would go with the flow if her almost-11- > year-old daughter got a letter! ;)) Madeyesgal: I do remember reading about the recording of the births of witches and wizards. For some reason, don't ask me why, I attributed it only to the births of children born to magical families. I see now that I was short sighted. My question still lingers, though...why would a muggle child and his/her parents even pay attention to such a letter? I think JKR "has a lot of "splainin' to do." Kristen...who wishes she'd received a letter to attend Hogwarts. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Tue Aug 19 01:18:31 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:18:31 -0000 Subject: Pettigrew WAS: Harry/Voldemort showdown in 2 years In-Reply-To: <20030818064950.97632.qmail@web40411.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77899 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, House Yolande wrote: > Arya said: > > SNIP > > I think this is a possibility because I see Peter as being made to go with Voldemort, at least to the house at Godric's Hollow to show him the location and break the charm (yes, I know he could have written it down, but I think Volde would make him come along). Peter then could have witnessed everything and after it was all done, have retreived the wand (maybe he even has other wands-- Lily's and James'???) > > > Also, it is evident that Voldemort has his wand back in GoF, after Peter returned to him and was with him. I am pretty certain that Fallen Voldemort could not possess and wield a wand so someone had to have saved it from the wrecjkage at GH and then given it back to him by the beginning of GoF (when the wand is used to kill Frank Bryce). There are only two options: Crouch and Wormtail (or anyone of several ESE: Snape, etc). As Crouch is dead and gone, I see Wormtail as the most likely candidate. > > Then Ravenclaw Bookworm said: > > > A good explanation for how Voldemort got his wand back, too. > > > This could also tie into the theory that Frank Longbottom witnessed the attack on the Potters. (Cross reference: thread starting with #77595 / Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow). If both Pettigrew and Frank Longbottom witnessed the attack, that would explain why the Death Eaters thought the Longbottoms knew where Voldemort was - Pettigrew would have told them he saw Frank there. > Possibly Pettigrew hid so that Frank didn't see him, but he saw Frank. > > And Yolande responds: > > But if Pettigrew used Voldemort's wand, then wouldn't the Muggle victims of that attack have emerged from the wand at the end of The Goblet of Fire along with Harry's parents, Cedric, et al? Everyone who had died through the use of that wand emerged from it, starting with the most recent deaths. The scene with Sirius and Pettigrew happened after Harry's parents died; therefore, the Muggle victims would have come out of the wand before them, if in fact the wand had been used. Since they did not, it seems to me that this is solid proof that Pettigrew did not use Voldemort's wand. What do you think? > > Yolande > ME: (Arya again) I say that if the spel that Pettigrew cast with the wand was like a reducter curse or some other thing that just 'blew up the street' and only killed people as a result of the explosion, then, no we would not see all these people coming out of the wand. We see people who were killed directly by the killing curse. During Priori Incantatum, we see the solvery hand that voldemort conjured for Peter, we hear the screams of those tortured under the cruciatus and we see the shadows of those killed by the killing curse. Every spell there is probably doesn't have a reverse effect to see-- for example, what would you see for Wigardium Leviosa or for alohamora? Whatever it was that Peter may have cast that day when Sirius was apprehended, I think it very plausible that it didn't have a Priri Incantatum efffect for us to see or one that Harry noticed. Arya From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 01:28:10 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:28:10 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77900 But before Marina could make her way down the beach with the attention-demanding Prank, Laura tentatively poked her head around a tall sand dune. "I couldn't help overhearing your conversation," she said in an uncertain voice. "I don't usually get involved in this sort of thing, but...I had a thought." Marina, Kirstini and Derrainmer looked up and squinted at the intrusive stranger digging her toe into the sand (not an endearing thing for a woman in her late 40's to do). "Okay,", Marina responded encouragingly, "what is it?" "Well...much as I'd love for Sirius to get off the hook here, I couldn't help recalling DD's words about Neville at the end of PS/SS. " 'It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends'. (p 306 US) I just can't see Wormtail standing up to Sirius, even if it meant going behind his back." Laura contemplated the physical dexterity this might require for a moment. "Wormtail had to know that he was in the Marauders only because the others enjoyed his hero-worship of them. Would he really do anything do endanger his status as a member of the coolest group in the school? Not to mention risking Sirius's wrath." The others stared at Laura for a moment. Then Kirstini looked at Marina and said, "Well?" Marina threw a disgruntled look at Laura. "Oh great-another Sirius-basher. Just what we need aroud here." "No, no", cried Laura earnestly. "I love Sirius! And I truly don't believe he was spiteful or stupid enough to plan the...well, you know", she continued, letting the puppy sniff her hand. "Surely, Marina, you can come up with another theory? Please?" Tears filled her eyes as she turned and disappeared as suddenly as she had come. Laura (hoping she hasn't made an utter fool of herself) From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 01:30:56 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:30:56 -0000 Subject: My rather inflamatory post Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77901 Zesca, I did state in my first sentence that I hoped. In no terms was I telling everyone to stop having their opinions, wants, or hopes posted. It was my opinion. I am not the person who would ask for censorship of these posts either. Living in America today, one has to step lightly in order to appease the thin skinned nature of the minorities. And I am one of them, being a native of the Cherokee tribe. I do not abhore gays or their lifestyle, or go looking for gays to roll on a Saturday night. Some of my best friends pratice a alternative lifestyle, my sister being one of them. She recently did marry her partner of many years, legally. And I was there to celebrate their happiness. I wished to voice my opinion, and have been flamed for that. In no terms was my post derogatory, or meant to be. I am not gifted with your artful use of words and apologize for that. I thought this was for posting opinions and free thought, clearly I was mistaken. And still I do not understand the need to be so vocal about ones sexual preference, and I apologize to the people that I may have offended with my nearsightedness. Severus "humbly beg for forgiveness" Snape From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 19 01:31:14 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:31:14 -0000 Subject: Lucius/James/Ginny's age & birthdays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77902 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: Another thing that I found intersting towards the end of OoP is when Harry is trying to go to the MoM without Ginny, Neville and Luna. Harry tries to tell Ginny she is too young but Ginny says she is three years older than he was when he fought Voldemort for the PS. Harry was 11. So Ginny is still 14 on this day in June although we don't know what the date is. The reason I find this interesting is that Ron's birthday is 1 March. Which means Ginny's birthday must now be between mid/late June (depending on the date)because she hasn't turned 15 as of this time, and the end of September (which seems to be the cut off date for Hogwarts). I think my theory about Ginny's birthday being June 21 is looking shaky now! I was sure that other smashed prophecy "at the solistice will come another" referred to her but now I've got doubts. Any thoughts on this? Me (Bill): The events at the MoM had to have happened at least a week before the train back to King's Cross Station, and probably longer, according to the Lexicon. OotP does not say when the term ended, but in PS/SS, the Lexicon states that the Hogwarts express left on June 20, in CoS, it was June 19, in PoA, it was June 18, and in GoF, it was July 3. (???) A week to two weeks earlier than this suggests a date of around June 4-13, going by the first three books, or around June 11-25, going by GoF. If Ginny says that she is 14 when she is at the MoM, then I would say that the chances of her being born on the summer solstice are actually increased significantly. Bill From mongo62aa at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 19 01:35:16 2003 From: mongo62aa at yahoo.ca (mongo62aa) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:35:16 -0000 Subject: Lucius/James/Ginny's age & birthdays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77903 I meant to type June 18-25, according to GoF Sorry. Bill From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 01:37:44 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:37:44 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory (short) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77904 From kelly at protocallonline.com Tue Aug 19 01:48:39 2003 From: kelly at protocallonline.com (kellymcj2000) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:48:39 -0000 Subject: row 97 Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77905 Hi. Trying to get an answer to a quick question if I can manage to actually send this. I somehow deleted this same message a minute ago. At least I think I did. I'm wondering if it's going to post somehow. If it does, sorry for the repeat. How did the prophecy keeper know in what row to put the prophecy about Harry? As far as I know, it is generally assumed the rows refer to years and there is nothing in the prophecy about what year the big confrontation takes place or how old Harry or Voldy will be. SO Did Dumbledore not reveal the entire prophecy to Harry? or Is it just an oversight by the author? or Damn. I can't think of the third possibility I'd thought of, but I'm sure someone else will. If anyone can answer this for me it'd be great. Thank you KelMc From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 01:51:01 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:51:01 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory (short) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77906 I noticed in POA Harry remembers studying vampires in DADA and states that they have waxy, pale skin. But he is talking of Sirius at the time. Pg. 38 POA U.S. softback "Harry looked into the shadowed eyes of Sirius Black, the only part of the sunken face that seemed alive. Harry had never met a vampire, but had seen pictures of then in his DADA classes, and Black, with his waxy white skin, looked just like one." Is Severus ever portraid to look like this? It is the only description of vampires I have found in the books thus far. Sorry if this has been posted. Severus "would be cool to ba a vampire" Snape From debmclain at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 01:57:11 2003 From: debmclain at yahoo.com (Debbie) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:57:11 -0000 Subject: Lucius/James/Ginny's age & birthdays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77907 "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > I was reading OoP (again!) over the weekend and picked up for the > first time the fact that in the Daily Prophet article about Umbridge > being installed as high inquisitor Lucius Malfoy is quoted as being > 41. I know this has been picked up before but I thought it was > interesting that this means he was 26 when Draco was born. Now from > what I've read in the archives Lucius is presumed to be five or six > years older than James and Sirius so that would make James only 20 or > 21 when he had Harry. I always thought he was much older for some > reason. ME: LDP, yes, I find it interesting that James and Lily get married directly out of Hogwarts, then had Harry. When did Lucius and Narcissa get married? Was she in James' class and that's why they didn't get married until about the same time as the Potters? Perhaps they did get married after Hogwarts, but waited to have kids because of working for Voldemort? At least we know the time period when Lucius went to school and that he was with MWPP for a couple years before graduating, and not with Tom Riddle. -Debbie From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 02:20:48 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 19:20:48 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] row 97 References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77908 KelMc How did the prophecy keeper know in what row to put the prophecy about Harry? As far as I know, it is generally assumed the rows refer to years and there is nothing in the prophecy about what year the big confrontation takes place or how old Harry or Voldy will be. SO Did Dumbledore not reveal the entire prophecy to Harry? or Is it just an oversight by the author? or Damn. I can't think of the third possibility I'd thought of, but I'm sure someone else will. Dan: I didn't assume that the row related to years at all--I just thought that prophecies are just... well... shelved. You get a prophecy? Stick it on the shelf. Run out of space? Get another. However, you raise an interesting point. Harry and the Gang enter their 7th Year (when the big fight does happen) in 1997... *GADZOOKS!!!* [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From nansense at cts.com Tue Aug 19 02:27:32 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:27:32 -0000 Subject: My rather inflamatory post In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77909 severusbook4 at y...> wrote: >In no terms was I telling everyone to stop having their opinions, wants, or hopes posted. madeyemood: perhaps it's time to examine the difference between the meaning of your choice of words v. the meaning you intended for them to have. >severusbook4: >It was my opinion. I am not the person who would ask for censorship of these posts either. madeyemood: okay, sev, say i'm williing to give you the benefit of the doubt. the possibility exists that you didn't understand how your words would be construed. if that's the case, is it time to consider how to best express yourself in a public forum? instead of calling others thin-skinned, perhaps you'd generate less bad feeling if you chose topics where your word choice is more in line with your meaning. i find that such constraints on myself motivate me to learn how to generate the skills to express myself in a way that leaves others feeling respected. sev: >Living in America today, > one has to step lightly ... m.e.mood: indeed. sev: > I do not abhore gays or their lifestyle m.e.mood: okay. sev: > I wished to voice my opinion, and have been flamed for that. m.e.mood: i think that this is more because your opinion implied a lack of tolerance for others despite your intentions. the sorry truth about being an adult is that we are responsible for the way in which we express ourselves. not all opinions are meant to be aired. there are always comments that will incur the wrath of any given group. now you've learned about this particular group and what feels safe and appropriate. it's helpful to keep in mind that listmembers know you exclusively by your words. they can't read body language, know your personal history, etc. In no terms was my > post derogatory, or meant to be. again, i encourage you to examine the difference between those two ideas. > I am not gifted with your artful use of words and > apologize for that. thank you? > I thought this was for posting opinions and free thought, clearly I > was mistaken. madeyemood: In my experience, free does not mean unconscious or insensitive. also, nota bene, no one has thrown you in jail. i don't understand the basis of your idea that listmembers should interpret what you've written based on your intention. i'm afraid that as far as list life is concerned, what you write is who you are, for all intents and purposes. sev: > And still I do not understand the need to be so vocal about ones > sexual preference. madeyemood: perhaps it would be more apt to replace need with desire to do so without being illogically criticized or inhibited. where i may not be a big fan of every topic, i would not expect listmembers to tolerate an airing of such an opinon. esp if that sort of stance were held in a spooky way by some listmembers. such are the general mores of group living. while i do understand your "need" to talk about your opinions, it just doesn't wash in a setting that includes people with a commitment to tolerance and a certain level of expressive finesse. > and I apologize to the people that I may have offended with my nearsightedness. > > Severus "humbly beg for forgiveness" Snape madeyemood: sweetly uttered. here's your chance to back it up with meaningful action. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 19 02:36:25 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:36:25 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77912 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > "Well...much as I'd love for Sirius to get off the hook here, I > couldn't help recalling DD's words about Neville at the end of > PS/SS. " 'It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our > enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends'. (p 306 US) I > just can't see Wormtail standing up to Sirius, even if it meant going > behind his back." Laura contemplated the physical dexterity this > might require for a moment. "Wormtail had to know that he was in the > Marauders only because the others enjoyed his hero-worship of them. > Would he really do anything do endanger his status as a member of the > coolest group in the school? Not to mention risking Sirius's wrath." Marina contemplated Laura's words with some confusion. "I'm not sure what the difficulty here is," she said "The whole 'premeditated Prank' theory is based around the claim that Peter did go behind Sirius' back. If you don't believe Peter would do that, then all this premeditation business falls apart. You should be happy!" > "Surely, > Marina, you can come up with another theory? Please?" Tears filled > her eyes as she turned and disappeared as suddenly as she had come. > "Prank! Fetch!" Marina ordered. Prank gave a loud, gleeful bark and ran off down the beach. He returned a few minutes later, dragging a startled-looking Laura behind him, a corner of the skirt clutched firmly in between his teeth. "There you are!" Marina said happily. "What do you mean by asking me if I have a theory and then disappearing on me? Of course I have a theory! Do you want to actually hear it or not?" "Uhm... yeah." Laura bent down to wring the dog drool from the skirt, while Prank frolicked and wagged his tail. "But the way you've been going on, I figured I could hear you from a distance." "I won't yell this time," Marina promised. Laura looked skeptical, but stayed where she was. "Okay, so what's your theory?" "My theory," said Marina, "is that Peter had nothing whatsoever to do with either the Prank or with James' interference, until after the whole thing was over. There was no middle man. Sirius, spurred on by some event we don't yet know about, sent Snape to the Whomping Willow -- an impulsive, unplanned act of the sort we know Sirius is prone to. Having done it, he goes off to brag to James -- James his best buddy, James his parner in crime, James who hates Snivellus too. Except that James hadn't been around for whatever event got Sirius so riled up at Snape. James is able to think rationally. James realizes that Sirius had just done something monumentally stupid. He rushes off to the rescue, and gets to Snape just in time. "There. Isn't it lovely and clean?" Marina gave a pleased smile. "No timing problems. No need to come up with explanations as to why Peter didn't go to Remus, or why Lily failed to act until the last moment. Sometimes the simplest explanations really are best." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Aug 19 02:46:07 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:46:07 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77913 On the edge of a forest in Theory Bay were three women (or at least, Corinth thought they were all women; one was so covered in scarves and hats that it was difficult to tell), accompanied by a dog. "You call yourself a Siriophile!" one of them shouted at the bundled figure. "All I ever catch you doing is abusing him." Kirstini sneezed in agreement. "I know. But like I said,it occured to me, and I was kind of hoping you could disabuse me of it. I don't like all that premeditation, quite frankly. Please, take your time. I haven't got anything to do for a few days - no-one will buy anything from the Shack at the moment as they're afraid I'll give them the flu - and all these ideas are making me feel a bit dirty." "Excuse me." Corinth strolled up the shore toward the three women. "I was listening to this conversation, and I would like to offer still another theory. Well, actually, a combination of your two theories with a few small changes." She turned to Kirstini and Marina. "I don't know if it will completely exonerate Sirius of blame, but it might help." She pulled a tape recorder from her pocket. Kirstini's voice began playing: "I'm here because this nasty little suspicion popped into my head when I was listening in to what Derranimer was saying, and I'd like to be disabused of it, please. Sirius planned the Prank in advance. Not necessarily to any great degree, but he had had it in mind for a while, just toying it over in his mind - "yeah, wouldn't that greasy little slimeball like to know the *real* reason we disappear at full moon, heh heh heh...", something like that." "Okay, I can easily believe this part," Corinth said, stopping the recording for a moment. "It's perfectly in character with Sirius as we saw him in the Pensieve scene (which I agree needs a more descriptive name). When he's bored, he finds someone to entertain him, in a not-so-pleasant way. I'm sure he occassionally thought about new ways to torment his favorite victim, Snape. I don't for a moment believe he actually meant to kill or even hurt Snape. What would he gain from that? He'd certainly get himself in trouble, he'd ruin the life of one of his best friends, and he'd have to live with the guilt of having seriously injured or murdered a fellow student. No, Sirius didn't thrive on Snape's pain, he, like most popular teenage bullies, thrived on the reaction he got from the other students. "I don't think Sirius fully realized what he was setting Snape up for. Sirius himself spent several nights every four weeks or so wandering around with a werewolf. Lupin mentions in PoA that he shuddered at the thought of what might have happened during those trips once he had graduated (or left school or whatever it's called in the UK), but that at the time the Marauders didn't really care. They were young, knew more about the school than anyone else, had outsmarted not only their teachers but the Ministry of Magic in becoming Animagi...they must have felt pretty invincible. So in Sirius' mind, Lupin really wasn't dangerous. I think Sirius expected Snape to go down the tunnel, see a werewolf, get the pants scared off of him, and come tearing back up the tunnel. At which point Sirius, and a convenient group of onlookers, would laugh hysterically at the little wimp who loved studying the Dark Arts but was terrified of facing them." Corinth pressed the fast forward button. "This is where you explain that Sirius doesn't think James would support his plan. I don't think he intentionally left James out of the plans, but it's kind of irrelevant to my idea, so we'll just continue." She pressed another button and Kirstini's voice resumed. "So he mentions it to Peter, whose opinions don't really count, and who is stupid enough (Sirius thinks) to think it a good idea." Corinth quickly stopped the tape. "Now where does everyone come up with this idea that Sirius, James, and Lupin felt Peter was so incredibly stupid? Did they feel he was up to their standards academically? No. But then, no one in the school was. Peter was their friend, sycophant or no. They thought him intelligent and capable enough to join them in becoming Animagi, and trusted him with all their secrets. I think that of all the teachers and students at Hogwarts, James, Sirius, and Lupin were the only ones who didn't seriously underestimate his abilities. They were probably the ones who eventually got him into the Order. However, I do agree with your assessment of how Peter would react if he heard about the plan." Kirstini's recorded voice began again. "Peter, however, takes the idea a lot more seriously than Sirius thought he would - as we've seen from the werewolf question bit of the Memory, he has a history of doing this. Therefore, he's had a long time to play around in his head with the moral implications of the question - yes, I know that doesn't sound very Wormtail, but bear with me - before he actually overhears Sirius giving Snape the fatal piece of info. He's worked out that going to Lily would be a good bet, maybe he's even laid some groundwork towards approaching her." Slipping the tape recorder back into her pocket, Corinth turned to the group. "So if I don't think Sirius leaked the plan, who do I think did so? The obvious person...the only person we're absolutely certain knew about the Prank...Snape. The whole Sirius telling Snape how to follow Lupin scenario has always struck me as a bit implausible. Picture it: Sirius strolls up to Snape one day, taunts him and explains exactly how to get by the Whomping Willow and discover the deep dark secret of Sirius' very close friend. Step into my lair, said the spider to the fly. If you were Snape, would you follow those instructions? Of course not. My own personal experience says that when a person habitually taunts you and attempts to make a fool of you, you tend to treat everything that person says with intense paranoia. Snape would have to have the IQ of a rock to blindly follow Sirius' instructions, and whatever else he might be, Snape is not a fool. "Sirius would have to be much more conniving to get Snape to do what he wanted. So instead, he lets Snape think he discovered this info on his own. 'Accidently' let some small detail slip while taunting Snape, or ensure he was overheard talking to one of the other Marauders, or something along those lines. Snape figures out the mystery, and resolves to take action and finally turn the tables on the Marauders. He makes some comment about getting revenge and is overheard, perhaps by Peter, perhaps by Lily, perhaps by someone completely unrelated to the story. Said person doesn't necessarily need to understand exactly what Snape following Lupin implies, only that Snape is planning to do this and expects to take down the Marauders by doing so. Either way, I like the idea that the news finally got back to James via Lily, James put two and two together, and then took action in part to impress Lily." Corinth turned to Kirstini. "I love your description of a change in the group dynamic as a direct result of the Prank. It explains the future feelings between the group perfectly. And I really don't think this theory is that offensive to Sirius apologists. Was Sirius a jerk when he was 15? Yes, we really can't deny that. But, like I said in the beginning, I don't think his intentions were evil, just thoughtless. He made a really stupid mistake, which ended up having more far-reaching ramifications than anyone involved could have predicted." From Veritas771 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 02:51:20 2003 From: Veritas771 at hotmail.com (michaelkgidlow) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:51:20 -0000 Subject: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77914 I can't help but think that Dumbledore's seeing socks in the Mirror of Erised is a clue to something important. We know that to a house elf a sock means freedom, so could it be that Dumbledore wants to be freed from something? Any ideas? Michael Gidlow From annemehr at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 03:50:31 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:50:31 -0000 Subject: Harry "always gets away with stuff" (Was Re: Defending Ron ?...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77915 Oooh, something to chew on! Annemehr, previously: > >>>Harry could no more help blowing up Aunt Marge, as hard as he > tried, than Ron could ever help his ears turning red when he's > upset.<<< CM: > I don't think that's necessarily true. Harry *was* responsible > for Aunt Marge blowing up; he failed to control his temper. Annemehr: He was *trying* his hardest. He had developed a strategy of reciting parts of his /Handbook of Dot-It-Yourself Broomcare/ in his head to take his mind off what Marge was saying to him, during a *full week* mind you, but when she started in on his mother and father he lost his ability to concentrate on it. The difference between us seems to be how we view the source of uncontrolled magic. It seems to me that you want to hold a school- age wizard responsible just for *getting angry*. Not just for what he decides to do when he's angry, but just for feeling the emotion itself. Because, when a school-age wizard feels the emotion of anger (or fear) strongly enough, something is going to happen. I am remembering my biology courses, when we learned about the voluntary and involuntary nervous systems. The voluntary system controls what you decide to do, and the involuntary controls things like digestion and heart rate. I would see this "breakthrough" magic as stemming from the involuntary nervous system, perhaps occurring when the rush of adrenalin triggers it -- something like that. And what Marge did to him was more than a thirteen-year-old boy can be expected to bear without even getting angry. CM: >He seemed fully aware that he had done something wrong, too. Annemehr: Well, the impression I got was that he was aware that he was in trouble -- not necessarily the same thing at all. After all, he got in trouble for the Hover Charm that Dobby had put on the pudding the year before. So now he expected to be expelled because it was his supposed "second offense." > >>>annemehr: In justice, uncontrolled magic should never be > punished.<<< > > CM: I disagree. If Harry had started punching or kicking Aunt Marge > when he lost his temper, it would have been just as wrong as what he > did. Not holding him responsible for Magic he does in the heat of > anger would send the message that it's "okay," that because he's a > wizard, he deserves preferential treatment. And while many in the WW > would agree, the prevailing attitude of their government seems to be > on the other side of that fence. Annemehr: First of all, if Harry had started kicking Marge, or if he had pointed his wand at her and hexed her, then yes, that would have been wrong, and punishment would be appropriate. And often when people lash out in anger, they *say* that they "lost control" but that is not IMO, the same thing that happens when uncontrolled magic happens (as I explain above). Secondly, it is true that the MoM would have to look closely at major instances of supposed uncontrolled magic, just to make sure that someone wasn't doing harm on purpose and then claiming it was uncontrolled. Finally, remember the instances of uncontrolled magic that Harry did before he knew he was a wizard. Harry did not do any of those on purpose. He did not even know that it was possible; it just happened. Now that he knows why it happens, he can try to control it, and he's had some success, but there is no way he can absolutely prevent himself from ever being angry or upset enough to cause a magical mishap. That's why they have the "Accidental Magic Reversal Squad." CM: > I personally don't think there was anything sinister in Ron's remark. > Harry *does* get away with stuff (Aunt Marge, flying when Madame > Hooch left in SS), but that's not a bad thing, is it? I assume that > most of us cheer for him at those moments (as Ron and the rest of > Weasleys did in OOP). He's the hero, we want things to go his way. Annemehr: I wouldn't call Ron's remark sinister, either, it just irks me given the panic Harry felt when he left Privet Drive, and my feeling that it's ALL MARGE'S FAULT! After all, what she did, she certainly did on purpose. It's like I said before, "being Harry" causes him more trouble than it gets him out of. > > CM, who loves it when things work out in Harry's favor. And on that you have my 100% agreement! Annemehr who would be sporting a C.R.A.B. badge if she knew where to get one From estesrandy at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 03:57:06 2003 From: estesrandy at yahoo.com (Randy) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:57:06 -0000 Subject: Neville's Evil Family ...FILK Rock Opera In-Reply-To: <33C97F24.6FFCE43E.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77916 > > A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to the front of the queue now. > > "I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed. > > "Ward forty-nine, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time," said the witch dismissively. "He's completely addled, you know, still thinks he's a teapot....Next!" > > > > Could this be Great Uncle Algie, delivering the devil's snare?? > This Brings to mind the Who's production of "Tommy" sung to the tune of "Uncle Ernie(Fiddle About)" by Pete Townsend I'm your Uncle Algie And I'm doing something Nasty As I fiddle about, fiddle about! That guy Broderick Is starting to get too close for comfort Better Fiddle About, Fiddle About! As Neville's parents think: (sung to the tune of Tommy Can you hear me?) Neville can you hear me? Please won't you come near me? I've got something for you I really do adore you! Neville Neville AS Draco thinks aloud: (sung to the tune of Pinball Wizard) (BADUUUMMMM! BADUUUUUUM!) Ain't seen nothing like him He can beat my best. He always gets attention Loved by all the rest! I've got to find a way now To put him to the test! That Damn Harry Potter Sure makes me feel so Small! (danna dant dant danna!!!....) Sorry 'bout that ... got carried away.... Right then. Enter John Cleese And now for something completely different..... We leave the Ministry of Magic and enter "the Department of Silly Songs displayed over the Internet" Arrest that man for impersonating a songwriter!!! >> Right. St. Mungo's Hospital for Magical Maladies and Injuries. :) > Yes, I see the part you mean. Now, let's flip ahead a bit... > Yes, it's most likely SOMEONE delivering the Devil's Snare. But there's nothing to indicate this is Uncle Algie... From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 04:13:28 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:13:28 -0000 Subject: Lucius/James/Ginny's age & birthdays In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77917 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" > wrote: > > Another thing that I found intersting towards the end of OoP is > when Harry is trying to go to the MoM without Ginny, Neville and > Luna. Harry tries to tell Ginny she is too young but Ginny says > she is three years older than he was when he fought Voldemort for > the PS. Harry was 11. > > So Ginny is still 14 on this day in June although we don't know > what the date is. The reason I find this interesting is that > Ron's birthday is 1 March. Which means Ginny's birthday must now > be between mid/late June (depending on the date)because she hasn't > turned 15 as of this time, and the end of September (which seems > to be the cut off date for Hogwarts). > > I think my theory about Ginny's birthday being June 21 is looking > shaky now! I was sure that other smashed prophecy "at the > solistice will come another" referred to her but now I've got > doubts. Any thoughts on this? Yes--I think Ginny's statement is being taken far too literally. Harry was dealing with Voldemort at the end of his first year. Ginny is at the end of her fourth year. In ballpark figures, she is three years older than Harry was (or, to put it another way, she's had three more years of magical education). I don't think there's any way to get a concrete birthday for Ginny out of this remark, and wouldn't be surprised if JKR ever reveals the day and it turns out to be incompatible with the idea that she's literally 14 at the time she says this. Harry was NEARLY 12 when he was finishing his first year, after all. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 04:27:20 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:27:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: <20030818181924.81697.qmail@web21409.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77918 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, freddie mac wrote: > > > > Ravenclaw Bookworm: > > > > I'm curious. Where did the idea that Harry might be > > > > gay come from? > IMHO, Harry has *waay* too much stuff going on in his life > to worry about dating/relationships right now. I really > can't see him going beyond dances/trips to Hogsmeade until > Voldie is defeated, or at least the Voldie-related activity > dies down. > > Freddie (who thinks the sexual ship won't even be relevant > until books 8 & 9) I agree that Harry, especially after OoP, has too much to worry about to go looking for romance. (That's not to say it won't find him.) Before this book, he seemed just a typical teenage boy, too shy to talk to the girl he has a crush on. Harry is full of love and caring. I think his desire for love is more of the friends and family style than the romantic style, especially after Dumbledore's little revelation. It's obvious on the train home that his crush on Cho is over. Maybe I'm naive, but I just don't see any indications that Harry is gay. I was hoping that someone who thinks he is could explain what they saw that I didn't. I guess it's just individual belief at this point. Ravenclaw Bookworm From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 04:30:30 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:30:30 -0000 Subject: Lily's Sister, Petunia In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kristen" wrote: > *snip*>this brings me to another question. Both of Hermoine's > > > parents were muggles. How did they know about the WW? Did > Hermoine > > > read about the WW in a book, apply for a scholarship to Hogwarts > > > through some sort of spell she found? *snip* > Why did they pay attention? Why did any of the muggle parents pay > attention? > > > > Shirley replies: > > I don't have my book with me, but somewhere in book 5 it is said > that when a witch/wizard is born, their name is recorded in a book at > > Hogwart's, so that the letter automatically goes out to them when > > they turn 11 (or are at the proper age to attend). So Hermione > > didn't have to know about the WW, but I guess her parents *would* > > have to suspend their disbelief. Or, since this is JKR's world, > that wasn't a problem; muggle parents whose children get those > letters just "go with the flow"! > > > > Shirley (who wonders if she would go with the flow if her almost-11- > > year-old daughter got a letter! ;)) > > Madeyesgal: > > I do remember reading about the recording of the births of witches > and wizards. For some reason, don't ask me why, I attributed it only > to the births of children born to magical families. I see now that I > was short sighted. My question still lingers, though...why would a > muggle child and his/her parents even pay attention to such a letter? > I think JKR "has a lot of "splainin' to do." > > Kristen...who wishes she'd received a letter to attend Hogwarts. Since were asking questions. I thought i'd add a few more to the mix about muggle wizards going to hogwarts. do they get some kind of extended letter or handy-dandy instructional booklet? - if not - how do they get to diagon alley, exchange their money, and make it on to the train platform? Harry had Hagrid, but I just assumed everyone didn't get that same kind of 'service'. and heres another random question do these kids wash frequently they often seem to go to bed late - then get up, get dressed, and go (very college-dorm-style. i'm surprised they don't wear pajamas to class). just another one of those random things that come to mind when you're reading the book again and realize 'hey, harry hasn't brushed his teeth today' ; ) -QoE From navarro198 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 04:48:01 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 04:48:01 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77920 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly" wrote: Kelly: > Here is the most logical explaination I can arrive at: > Sirius, who was told the location by Peter, went into the ruins of > the house and came out with baby Harry. He then turned Harry over to Hagrid (along with his motorbike). RB: I couldn't find the passage in a quick look through SS/PS, but I thought I read that Hagrid told Harry (Dumbledore, maybe) he got to the house before the muggles did, and while he was there Sirius arrived and loaned Hagrid his motorcycle. Does anyone else remember this? Or is it movie contamination? Kelly: > The other explaination is that JKR, while writing the first book, had no idea people would be picking it apart to this degree and it is simply an oversight... This may be the answer. Each book has gotten more detailed, so JKR may not have thought this through as much as we have. Afterall, she didn't have dozens of people debating each point for her . Ravenclaw Bookworm From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 05:22:14 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:22:14 -0000 Subject: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77921 Margaret: > >I think Sirius and James were both majorly at fault here. The only >person who came out of that smelling like a rose is Lily. > >~Margaret, still firmly in the pro-Snape camp, and was just trying >to see the other side > Laura replied: > >Now wait a minute. We read in canon more than once that James and >Sirius were popular. Bullies tend not to fit that description. So I >would deduce that their bad behavior was directed at people who were >out of line in some obvious way. And we know that James >straightened up by the time he was 16 (or else he couldn't have been >a candidate for Head Boy when he was 17). Once he did that, Sirius >would probably have cooled out himself, since he held James in >greater esteem than anyone else (and he would have lost his favorite >co-conspirator). > >We just don't have the whole picture of the James/Sirius-Snape >relationship. And now it looks like we never will. Margaret again: I have known many popular bullies over the years. It's all in WHO you bully. In school I saw people who were totally off the social radar *become* popular after publicly picking on the right person. And those people were not 'out of line in some way' unless you consider not being a part of the "in-crowd" being out of line. They were the people who's parents didn't have a lot of money, the people who were too smart, too quiet, too short, too tall, too fat, too skinny, too "weird" (whatever the hell that means). Anything that deviated from the people who prided themselves on being 'normal', never realizing what sheep that made them into. Some of those former bullies eventually grew up and some of those became very nice people. Others never grew up, and always thought they had been justified in what they had done, and I'm afraid Sirius may fall in this catagory. That may be because I was never a big Sirius fan, I like what he represented to Harry, but that's about it. Most of the people who were treated like this, the ones I've talked to at least, didn't forget. The more I think about it, the more I believe that the James & Sirius vs. Severus relationship fits into this dynamic. ~Margaret From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 05:50:02 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 05:50:02 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77922 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki > wrote: > > I like to read certain characters as certian ways. And > > until JKR comes out and says 'Harry is straight' or > > 'Harry is gay', then I will continue to read him how I > > want. > Richard: > > Just because you can doesn't mean you are right, or that others will > like it when you express "divergent" opinions. If you express such > views, don't blame the rest of us if you get a few flames. > bboy_mn: Actually, I would guess that a majority of us DO like it when 'divergent' opinions are expressed, because when opinions diverge, that's when the conversation gets interesting. It really is so boring when everyone agrees with each other or hold that same opinion; pretty much ends the conversation. > > ...EDITED... > > Richard: > If people want to read homosexual overtones into what has been > presented thus far, it is no indication of his really being gay or > bi, but of the character and predilections of those readers. bboy_mn: To coin a British phrase, 'Too right you are.'. Of course, people see themselves in the book. Of course, gay/bi people reflect themselves in the personalities of certain characters. Partly because it's fun speculation, partly, I admit, because it is fantasy. That is, the reader's fantasy; not the writer OF fantasy. And I think there are gay characters in the books, but the fact that there are hints that they might be gay is insignificant to the greater story, just like the existence of gay people in everyday life is insignificant to the day to day operation of the world. They do their jobs, they live their lives, and life goes on. This whole thing started with someone taking what I saw as a light hearted comment by the original poster, and an innocent question by what I assume is a new member, as being much much more serious than either the original poster or the question asker intended. As far as the gay issue, this has been discussed many times in this group and the OT group with a wide range of opinions, and most people are able to keep it in perspective. That perspective is not absolute fact, but conversation and dialog amoung people with a common interest. Do you really think I believe that Snape is a vampire? Not on your life; it's stupid, but I think it is great fun for people who do believe it, or who are interested in discussing the possibility. More power to them. And, I may even weigh in with my own opinions on the matter, because my 'it's stupid' opinion could still lend valuable perspective and counterpoint to the discussion. The gay issue is the same. Those who post opinions with leaning in that direction add perspective and counterpoint... and well, of course, a significant amount of personal fantasy, but fantasy is fun. You don't have to agree, and you obviously don't; to that I say 'Excellent'. It's always good to have a counter-perspective and a counter-counterpoint. Mainly, to all, lighten up. Like I said, I took the original statement that trigger this run of posts as being much more lighthearted and insignificant to the point the poster was making than some of you appear to have taken it. Of course, that just a thought. bboy_mn From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 19 05:52:31 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:52:31 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Hagrid and thestrals References: Message-ID: <3F41BB1F.4040405@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77923 Hagrid wrote: > In 1981, when the Potters died, Hagrid used Sirius' motorcycle to > deliver Harry. When he delivered Harry's letter in 1991, no bike was > seen, but Hagrid tells Harry he "Flew" to the Hut-on-the-Rock. > > But now I am thinking he may have used a Thestral since it was a one- > way flight. That would mean Hagrid trained Thestrals between 1981 and > 1991. Not necessarily. It could just be that he wasn't near a thestral when he had to deliver Harry, or the thestrals were being used by others. Or, since he had to get to Godric's Hollow somehow, he took a thestral there, but used the bike to go to Privet Drive because it was easier to fly, or more convenient, or faster, or just because he wanted to. So he could have trained the thestrals before 1981. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Aug 19 06:11:05 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:11:05 -0000 Subject: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four (was TBAY) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > > "My theory," said Marina, "is that Peter had nothing whatsoever to > do with either the Prank or with James' interference, until after > the whole thing was over. There was no middle man. Sirius, spurred > on by some event we don't yet know about, sent Snape to the Whomping > Willow -- an impulsive, unplanned act of the sort we know Sirius is > prone to. Having done it, he goes off to brag to James -- James his > best buddy, James his parner in crime, James who hates Snivellus > too. Except that James hadn't been around for whatever event got > Sirius so riled up at Snape. James is able to think rationally. > James realizes that Sirius had just done something monumentally > stupid. He rushes off to the rescue, and gets to Snape just in time. > > "There. Isn't it lovely and clean?" Marina gave a pleased > smile. "No timing problems. No need to come up with explanations > as to why Peter didn't go to Remus, or why Lily failed to act until > the last moment. Sometimes the simplest explanations really are > best." > Too straightforward, though. JKR loves nothing more then to throw unexpected curves our way. How about this? James wants to impress Lily, and knows how protective she can be of Snape. Sirius wants to get back at Snape for something. So they get together and form a plan. Sirius sends Snape to the Whomping Willow, and lets James know that everything is in place. James then watches the Marauders Map, and "finds out" about the prank in front of Lily when he sees Snape on the map headed towards the Whomping Willow, timing it so he can pull Snape out and act like a hero before Snape was far enough in to get more then a major fright. James is then a "hero", impressing Lily, and Snape is scared out of his wits, per Sirius's intention. In this case, there isn't even the random factor of getting there "just in time". Everything is premeditated from the beginning, and murder isn't intended by Sirius at all... --Arcum From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 06:28:34 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 06:28:34 -0000 Subject: inflamatory post - Internet=Misunderstanding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > severusbook4 at y...> wrote: > >In no terms was I telling everyone to stop having their opinions, > >wants, or hopes posted. > > madeyemood: > perhaps it's time to examine the difference between the meaning of > your choice of words v. the meaning you intended for them to have. > > >severusbook4: > >It was my opinion. I am not the person who would ask for censorship > > of these posts either. > > madeyemood: > okay, sev, say i'm williing to give you the benefit of the doubt. > the possibility exists that you didn't understand how your words > would be construed. > > madeyemood: bboy_mn: I think we all need to remember that the Internet is ideally suited for fostering misunderstanding. There is a tendency to reply in the heat of the moment. There is little time to ponder the full impact of your words; hit [Send] and they are on their way. The internet also lack crucial ingredients for understanding of communictation because there are no non-verbal clues; no demeanor, no attitude, no facial experssion, no body language. Frequently, and I'm sure we've all experienced this, little 'toss away' comments that we throw in to our posts get blown way out of proportion. I remember trying to draw a parallel between the smell of cabbage in Perkin's loaner tent at the World cup and the smell of cabbage in Mrs. Figg's house, to make the point that sometime a cigar is just a cigar. That is Perkin's had descriptive characteristics of an old person, Mrs. Figg had descriptive characteristics of an old person, given the parallels, it was unlikely that Mrs. Figg was a young fair maiden living her life under the spell of Polyjuice so she could keep an eye on Harry. Really, that was one of the big theories a while back. Seemed a simple point to make by comparison, but the next thing I knew people were accusing me of insulting old people, or claiming that I was saying that all English people stink, or that cabbage it the vegitable spawn of the devil. And the more I tried to explain what I really meant, the more the things cascaded out of control. A simple post with a simple point, came close to enraging some people on points I never made and certainly never intended to make. So, at some point I just had to walk away; shrug my shoulders and accept that sometimes on the Internet, no matter how hard you try, your real point, and your real attitude, and your real intent just DOES NOT come across. So, you walk away, older and wiser, and life goes on. Point: With any communication on the Internet, we need to temper what we read and what we write with a little quiet wisdom, and when in doubt, just lighten up and have some fun. It's just a thought. bboy_mn From caradon_2000 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 03:51:42 2003 From: caradon_2000 at yahoo.com (Kevin) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:51:42 -0000 Subject: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77926 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "michaelkgidlow" wrote: > I can't help but think that Dumbledore's seeing socks in the Mirror > of Erised is a clue to something important. We know that to a house > elf a sock means freedom, so could it be that Dumbledore wants to be > freed from something? Any ideas? > > Michael Gidlow Freedom, perhaps, from the awesome responsibilities of being the leader of the "good" faction in the Harry Potter universe? Freedom from the constant scrutiny from his "peers" at the MoM? At least, those are what came into my mind as I read that passage... Kevin From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 22:20:44 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:20:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77927 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" > wrote: > > I remember very well my first kiss, and being very surprised by > > just how wet it was. We were both clueless, though, as it was > > also HER first kiss. > > Actually, there is no reason to assume that. In fact, one thing > Harry might have been worried about was how he might stack up to > Cedric in the kissing department. Although Harry only saw Cedric > and Cho holding hands while walking through the corridors, I think > we've had ample evidence of other students snogging (Percy and > Penelope, Roger and, well, any girl within spitting distance ) > that it's quite likely that two students in fifth and sixth years > who were seeing each other might have kissed. That pressure alone > could be a very big reason why Harry didn't seem too thrilled with > his first kiss--he was probably too busy worrying about being > compared to Cho's late boyfriend to really enjoy himself. I believe you missed my point, and there is no assumption involved. I was describing MY first kiss, and how I felt about it, and that "wet" being a first and most-striking impression for someone's first kiss isn't that odd ... and thus doesn't support a gay Harry hypothesis. As for Harry's first kiss, well, in a sense it wasn't his first kiss FROM a girl. He already had one from Hermione. (Whether that kiss was "with intent" or not is a different debate.) But, he hadn't kissed her. There is also all that background snogging implied by various events, so yes, Harry was likely worried at some level about how he stacked up ... but not until later, a la his response comment about him being "that bad" at it, did he worry about how that kiss stacked up to Cho's past experience. Before that kiss, he seemed to be wondering how one went about ALL this romance stuff period, and not about how to kiss Cho. That just sort of happened, from his perspective, as she initiated it. And this gets back to what I had said before. Harry has no early model of affection, tenderness and love before age eleven, except that of his parents who died too early in his life to be models for much of anything. It should be no surprise, then, that Harry has more than a few open questions about how romance is supposed to work. From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 22:36:20 2003 From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (Anna) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:36:20 -0000 Subject: Heartgrabbing moment In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77928 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "miss_america_03" wrote: > There have been lots of moments where my heart just hurts for > Harry but one particularly stands out and I don't know why.. > Its in OOTP when Snape is reading Harry's mind and one of his > memories is when he was 9 (or something) and his heart was bursting > with jealousy watching Dudders ride his bike! :(! Any other moments > like that? I am pretty sure that nobody will agree with me, because my choices are not obvious tear jerkers. Maybe these moments do not belong here at all, because they didn't grab me right away. It is only when I thought about it after the fact that I realized how powerful they were. My most heart grabbing "Harry" moment is not a single moment, but a series of similar situations in OoP. My heart hurt for Harry each time he was forced to confront the fact that his heros are not infallible. I think the subtle jabs that accompany growing up can be more emotionally painful than a singular event. However, in my opinion, the most heart grabbing moment is not a Harry moment. Overall, I think the most heart grabbing moment is really a non- event - Lupin's reaction to Sirius' death in OoP. You would expect someone in Lupin's situation to be really bitter and angry at his lot in life. However, Lupin seems so caring, selfless, soft spoken and introspective (notwithstanding the full moon episodes). In fact, I can't think of any explicit expression of rage or anger on his part. When Lupin witnesses the violent death of the only remaining person with whom he spent the happiest moments of his life, (Peter Pettigrew, being evil, doesn't count), he internalizes what has to be heart wrenching pain. Instead of raging, he focuses his attention on keeping Harry safe. I think that is incredibly sad. "Anna" From jedimaster_alec at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 22:38:44 2003 From: jedimaster_alec at yahoo.com (not displayed) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:38:44 -0000 Subject: Pondering that Secret Keeper thing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kelly" wrote: > > Here are a few points I have been pondering regarding the Fidelius > charm on the Godric Hollow House. > > 1. If Lily and James dying lifted the charm then why wasn't Harry > protected as well. Harry was still alive, so the death of the > occupants being the charm would mean baby Harry was not part of the > spell. Also, if the owner of the house being dead lifts the Fidelius > charm, would that nullify the charm on Grimmauld Place now that > Sirius is dead? > > 2. I think a key to this is the destruction of the house. We know > from GoF (Chapter One: The Riddle House) that Avada Kadavra only > kills the body when it hits (notice I say when it hits). It seems, > however, that curses that don't hit a person can do quite a bit of > destruction: > > "Another jet of green light flew from behind the silver shield. This > time it was the one-armed centaur, galloping in front of Dumbledore, > that took the blast and shattered into a hundred pieces. . .(OoTP AM > 814)" > > We also see some evidence of this is the graveyard scene in GOF when > the gravestone cracks after being hit with a curse. I assume this is > an effect of particularly strong curses or the walls of Hogwarts > would be pockmarked with students missed attempts at each other. > > Therefore, I think that the destruction of the house shows that quite > a bit more went on at Godric's Hollow that a clean and easy killing > of James and Lily. Me: I think we can all agree with Kelly that there is more going on here. JK has made a point that the snipets of what we read are just the tips of the ice berg. Generally she explains things within a couple of chapters or else during the course of a single novel. However, the death (and the night) of James and Lilly have only been explained in parts. So I think it's safe to assume that there is a lot more going on... But on to my point about what happend: 1. Sirus knew the township of where J and L were. But not the house. The destruction of the house was the evidence Sirus had to determine the exact location. 2. Voldermort was defeated with his failed AK curse on Harry that fateful night. But it was Wormtail (Peter Pettigrew) who blew up the house. The proof I offer is this: Having cornered Peter after L and J's deaths, Sirus is framed by Peter in the death of several Muggles. To paraphrase, Peter yelled to the crowd: How could you, Sirus?!!?!? James and Lily?!?!? Then Peter (with his wand behind his back) "blew up" the street, transformed into a rat, and ran into the sewer with the other rats. Any one ever notice that Peter knew how and could blow things up to such a degree that mass death and destruction could occur? And did anyone ever notice that James and Lily's house had also blow up? My theory is this: Voldermort killed James and Lily, attempted to kill Harry all while Peter was outside watching and waiting. But he realized that his Master was defeated-- not dead, but not alive; went into the house to find the James and Lily dead, Harry alive, and Voldermorts wand. Peter took his Master's wand and hid it before Sirus caught up with him the next day. But before leaving he attempted to kill Harry by blowing up the house. He reasoned that if a direct curse from LV could not kill Harry, then he should try something different. However, the charm that saved Harry's life protects him not just from voldermort, but from voldermort's plans and mingeons-- while living at the place where "his blood lives". And where could his blood live, but at his parents's home? I think this explanation helps explain, how Voldermort got his wand back; why the house was destoryed and why Harry survived the destruction of the house... any thoughts? "Alec" From nansense at cts.com Tue Aug 19 07:07:24 2003 From: nansense at cts.com (zesca) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:07:24 -0000 Subject: inflamatory post - Internet=Misunderstanding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77930 > > >severusbook4: > > >I am not the person who would ask for censorship > > > of these posts either. > > > > madeyemood: > > okay, sev, say i'm williing to give you the benefit of the doubt. > > bboy_mn: > > Point: With any communication on the Internet, we need to temper what > we read and what we write with a little quiet wisdom, and when in > doubt, just lighten up and have some fun. madeyemood: Sorry about the triple post, guys. I must say, I agree that lightening up is pragmatic in many cases. in others, a bit of an oversimplification. To quote Dr. Einstein: Things should be made as simple as possible, but not any simpler. it feels like the end of a South Park episode...i think what we've all learned here today... not sure, actually. bboy's words miss the mark for me. time to let go of the topic and assimilate knowledge in some non-intellectual fashion. i think i'll try to find a pick up quidditch game or something. beware of doxie droppings, madeyemood From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 22:40:27 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:40:27 -0000 Subject: Harry "always gets away with stuff" (Was Re: Defending Ron ?...) In-Reply-To: <20030818204744.7809.qmail@web41503.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77931 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Pringle wrote: > Harry does get away with stuff that would result in > expulsions of other students and it's irritating how > he is favored. I'm surprised that the other students > don't complain about the inequity of the punishments > meted out. Of course, the punishment meted out by > Umbridge makes up for the other times Harry got away > with stuff. Lynda As we have yet to see an expulsion other than Hagrid's (which involved murder), and little discussion of the mis-behaviors of most other students (other than Fred and George who have BELIEVED that they have been skirting expulsion for years, and the marauders, who seem to have really run amok), I think it a bit bold to say that what Harry has done is all that much worse than what others have done, or that he has not been expelled when others would have been. After all, he hasn't murdered anyone. Malfoy does rather nasty things, such as trying to ambush Harry, stealing things (Neville's remembrall), attempting to destroy things (again, Neville's remembrall) and jinxing people. He hasn't been expelled, either. From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 23:25:33 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:25:33 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" wrote: > Anybody else have an opinion about whether V. fears H. in any way??? I think we already have some very strong evidence that Voldemort DOES fear Harry in at least one regard: the fact that Harry is alive at all, after Voldemort's repeated attempts upon Harry's life, threatens Voldemort's control over his Death Eaters. Why should they fear and unquestioningly obey him if this mere child can so successfully defy him? From gaspode2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 01:17:20 2003 From: gaspode2002 at yahoo.com (gaspode2002) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 01:17:20 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" > wrote: > > I remember very well my first kiss, and being very surprised by > > just how wet it was. We were both clueless, though, as it was > > also HER first kiss. > > I think the reason that Harry described the kiss as "wet" was because Cho was crying at the time. Gaspode (named for the famous Gaspode) From catportkey at aol.com Tue Aug 19 02:16:42 2003 From: catportkey at aol.com (catportkey at aol.com) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 22:16:42 EDT Subject: wizards living among muggles Message-ID: <9.175b34c2.2c72e28a@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77934 a friend wants to know In the HP books, many wizards and witches live among the muggles and many of their buildings are right next to muggle buildings, although the muggles are unaware. Since that is the case, why is Ron so clueless about how muggle things operate. Wouldn't he have seen someone using a pay phone on the street or maybe been so curious about how a bus worked that he got on one? Your thoughts, please. "Pook" [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From urghiggi at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 03:36:32 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 03:36:32 -0000 Subject: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > The grownups around Harry have failed him dismally by the climax of > OoP, that's for sure. But it looks like they've finally learned > their lesson. (Of course, Sirius paid with his life for Dumbledore's > cowardice, but that's another rant.) The scene at the very end where > the group of adults from the Order lay down the law to the Dursleys > is very encouraging. We can only hope that Harry is able to accept > what they have finally realized they have to give. I think the whole veil device is a strong message re JKR's philosophy about death -- to wit, that it's not the end of the line for the soul, only the end for the physical body. All the stuff about James' spirit and Lily's love living on in Harry is further evidence for this view. How the "death is final but it's not the end" idea will manifest itself in books 6/7 is hard to predict. The suddenness of Sirius' death is clearly deliberate, as is the lack of a body for a mourning ritual. Unfortunately this is how it sometimes happens in the real world as well, as we saw on 9/11 at the World Trade Center (sudden catastrophe, lack of identifiable remains for many, lack of closure for many). The Wiz World's now on a wartime footing; these kinds of deaths happen in a war. JKR's talking about some pretty hard stuff here, and she herself is a woman clearly marked by losing her mother at a rather young age. Death is a bitter thing to be discussing in what's ostensibly kid's literature, but being a kid is no shield from the harsh realities, so I think it's a brave thing for her to be doing, too. The mystery of the veil is just one more sign of her powerful symbolist philosophy, which is so evident throughout the Potter books (ie the belief that there's more to existence than meets the eye), vs. the materialist worldview prevalent in the books of an author like Pullman (ie there's no such thing as an afterlife or any kind of transcendent existence, so life's pretty much a WYSIWYG proposition). Re Dumbledore's "cowardice" -- I think that's a bit strong. He admits an error in judgment in trying to shield Harry from all the bitter truth before he's ready, and in allowing his affection for Harry to cloud his judgment regarding when "ready" might be. But as others have said, "Damn, if he couldn't be in the same room as Harry for fear of manipulation by LV, why didn't he just explain to Harry in a letter, and save everyone a lot of anguish?" (I have some theories about where JKR's going in the overall story arc, and feel this plot device was necessary in order for her to be able to explore one of the main issues I perceive in OoP -- which is how does a person try to make good/ obedient choices when his God/guide is silent? If this is one of the themes she's exploring, the plot device makes sense. If not, then it's really kind of lame.) Besides, all kinds of errors combined to cause Sirius' death, not just Dumbledore's error. Sirius himself chose to leave the house though he knew that doing so could put him in mortal peril. It never occurred to Harry to turn to Snape first after having the Sirius vision, due to his mistrust of Snape, even though Snape is a member of the Order and would certainly have been able to get him more reliable info re Sirius' status than was available from Kreacher. Harry thus wasted valuable time with the floo powder stunt and getting caught in Umbridge's office -- and got fed a crucial load of misinformation to boot. Harry also forgot to try using the mirror Sirius had given him at the critical juncture. And (more important than forgetting), Harry deliberately chose to fight the occlumency lessons -- and even chose not to practice occlumency on his own, when the lessons got nasty -- although both Ddore and Lupin had made it clear that this was vital for his own protection and for the protection of the Order. He wanted the knowledge of what was at the end of that dark dream corridor more than he wanted to obey his elders. Thus he was in a perfect position to be exploited by LV, exactly as Ddore had feared. (But what can ya reasonably expect of the kid -- he's 15, and damaged, and the veteran of previous heroic rescue missions -- all of which baggage contributed to his errors in OoP.) The whole scenario will either make Harry irredeemably bitter (which would make sense in real life but not in a series like this), or it will make him humble about his destiny and his gifts in a character-building way, as further preparation for his final battles. The whole Hogwarts Express and Kings Cross 'solidarity" scenes in the final chapter were a hopeful touch, as I think he's slowly starting to realize how much he needs his teammates (including his DA peers and his OoP guides) in order to survive, both psychologically and literally. urghiggi, Chicago From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 07:13:01 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:13:01 -0000 Subject: Getting the secret out...and breaking the Charm ( Was: PP instead of SB) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77936 "meltowne" > wrote: > >What I wonder is how members of the order found out where they >were. I would assume they had 3 or 4 options before they cast the >fidelius, and then informed the secret keeper of that choice. >Since the charm was cast only shortly before they were killed, I >would assume Harry was directly protected by it, meaning that for >Hagrid to rescue him, Hagrid had to know the location. That, of >course, means someone told Hagrid where they were - yes, we know >Dumbledore sent him, but since Dumbledore was not the secret keeper, >he couldn't have told Hagrid where to go - just that he needed to go! Melopene replied: >Yes! Yes, see??? This is what I can NOT figure out. If ONLY PP knew >how to find the Potters, even if the HOUSE was in plain view, then >How did Hagrid (and whoever else showed up in those missing hours) >manage to find James and Lily's bodies (unless the charm is broken >at death) and Harry? (Who was alive so if the death/charmbreak is >true would have been INVISIBLE.) > Margaret (me): Someone, I forget who (sorry!) suggested that there might me a trust issue required for the charm to be performed. You have to trust the person who will be keeping your secret for the secret to be "hidden inside a single living soul" (Professor Flitwick, PoA). Harry was only an infant, and therefore incapable of trusting anyone with his life, and therfore might not have been protected by the spell itself, just by association of being with his parents. I also have a theory (pretty much unconfirmed by canon to date, see bottom for space filling 'maybe') that since the spell is so complex, it might be possible there's a part where the person refuses to divulge the secret to a certain person(s). In this case the person would have been either Voldemort himself, or any Death Eater, depending on whether or not the Order thought the spy was in direct contact with Voldemort. By violating this part of the agreement, Pettigrew Spilled the secret. I think that once this happened, and the trust was violated, the spell may have been broken. I don't think not being the Secret Keeper affects knowing where to find them if you knew before i.e. if Dumbeldore knew before the Fidelius Charm was done where the Potters would be hiding he still knew afterwards. Since Dumbledore's the Head of the Order, and he obviously wasn't the spy (even if you subscribe to the Evil!DD theory you have to admit he was the one who arranged for them to go into hiding) it would make sense for him to have found an unlikely place for the Potters to hide. But he would have had to have been told by the Secret Keeper if he wanted to find/contact them (the "nose pressed against their sitting room window" part). So he would have known where to look once he heard they were attacked, and anyone could have found them after the charm was broken. I also think it was just the Potters and not their house that was protected by the charm. People would notice if a house that had always been there (even if they hadn't been the ones living there and it was new to them) suddenly vanished. The house probably appeared unoccupied from the outside unless you knew the Secret. *The fact that 12 Grimmauld Place appears from nowhere when you think about it is NOT due to the Fidelius Charm but to the fact that it is unplottable. (Sirius said his father had put "every protection known to wizard kind" on the house, including making it unplottable.) Just theories of course, I hope JKR explains the Fidelius Charm in more detail as Harry learns more about his parents (and their deaths). ~Margaret ***My "possible" canon confirmation: PoA pg 205 (US Hardback) (Fudge speaking)"One of them [DD spies] tipped him off, he alerted James and LIly at once. He advised them to go into hiding. Well of course You-know-who wasn't an easy person to hide from. Dumbledore told them their cest chance was the Fidelius Charm." "How does that work?" Madame Rosmerta Professor Flitwick cleared his throat. "An immensly complex spell, involving the magical concealment of a secret inside a single, living soul. The information is hidden inside the chosen person, or Secret-Keeper, and is henceforth impossible to find-- unless, of course, the Secret-Keeper chooses to divulge it. As long as the Secret-Keeper *refused* (my emphasis) to speak, You-know-who could search the village where James and Lily were staying for years and never find them, not even if he had his nose ressed against their sitting room window!" I think Petigrew divulging the secret to the one person it most needed to be kept from is what breaks the charm, and *could* be confirmed by 'as long as [he] refused to speak', perhaps even by anwsering a direct question it breaks the Charm, and it doesn't matter who asks it. From pjcousins at btinternet.com Mon Aug 18 23:59:29 2003 From: pjcousins at btinternet.com (confusinglyso) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 23:59:29 -0000 Subject: Why the Veil? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77937 lavaluvn posted Mon Aug 18, 2003 at 10.53 am post number 77789 Why the Veil? I only joined the group in July and my first post just over a week ago, post number 76403, was sent under the heading "Re:Tactics & Prescience(was Why Bella didn't disapparate) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "confusinglyso" wrote: > Hello. First post from an oldie. > > post 76335 and others have been speculating whether DD and Lupin > killed Sirius, or even whether Sirius volunteered to die. > What if the three of them took advantage of LV's plot of using > Harry's love for Sirius to lure H to MoM to stage Sirius' > disappearance/death? With Sirius dead, neither Fudge nor LV would be > concerned about Sirius anymore, and Sirius would have more freedom > (maybe in disguise). > Sirius "died" at the veil. What if Moody's missing Invisibility Cloak > was suspended in front of the veil, could Sirius then disappear as if > passing through the veil? I think DD and Lupin were nearest to Sirius > at the time and Lupin prevents Harry from approaching the veil after > Sirius disappears. > After Sirius' death the adults did not act upset to any great extent. > comments? Sirius' death seems to be solely for the "benefit" of Harry's emotional development! If Sirius is indeed still alive, I would not expect Harry to be told until end of book 6 at the earliest. If Sirius uses Fred & George Headless Hats and the Invisibility Cloak he could enjoy freedom once more, the Headless Hat allowing movement without the cumbersome stooping required if just using the cloak. "confusinglyso" From bookhound1 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 18 23:56:01 2003 From: bookhound1 at yahoo.com (Lynda Pringle) Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 16:56:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tolerance and contacting one's inner Umbridge (Was Re: Sex Pref SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030818235601.65150.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77938 Severus "no thank you, I'm straight" Snape: I really hope this does not become a pride fest saying that Harry is Gay. He obviously is not, ... I am slightly tired of the homosexual front reading g= ay themes into everything from comics to cartoons that my children watch, Sponge Bob comes to mind. Now don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the alternative lifestyle of this group of people, (my sister is, and I adore her partner) I just don't care for their "it has to be in your face" policy. >> Although I shrug off books or shows with gay themes (not offended but just can't relate), I understand what you are saying. But, alternatively, you don't have to read the fanfic with the gay themes. I hate the fact that the people who write the fanfic (mostly women) feel compelled to couple up the HP characters, as if the meaning of life can only be found through a romantic relationship. The HP books are very well written with little romance so it's not really necessary. I don't think that there are any gay themes in the book as I doubt that Rowling would put such themes in a book with an audience of children, but, with fanfic, anything goes. :-) Lynda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From lucchaser at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 02:02:01 2003 From: lucchaser at yahoo.com (Lady Luck) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 02:02:01 -0000 Subject: Giving Umbridge what she deserves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77939 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Laura: > We had some posts a little while back that suggested that Umbridge > might be rehabilitated by the MoM so as to cover up the disasters she > caused at Hogwarts. But...I'd like to suggest another fate. We all > remember that she sent dementors after Harry without Fudge's > knowledge or permission-and she admitted as much in front of a > roomful of witnesses, bless her spiteful little heart. Shouldn't she > be arrested, tried and sentenced to a nice long stretch in Azkaban > herself? > > Dan: > I hope we see her again, and I think Azkaban would serve her right (except for the lack of dementors--she'd just be sitting in a cell with monochomatic robes, which is an ungodly punishment). If she were charged (which she should), perhaps add to the list child abuse (the quill) and attempted use of an Unforgivable curse (if that's illegal). > > luck: Azkaban is not a good enough punishment. I think she needs to spend some time with Hagrid's brother Grawp. that will be interesting. From qmasters at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 07:38:17 2003 From: qmasters at yahoo.com (quimbyquidditch) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:38:17 -0000 Subject: wizards living among muggles In-Reply-To: <9.175b34c2.2c72e28a@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77940 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, catportkey at a... wrote: > a friend wants to know > In the HP books, many wizards and witches live among the muggles and many of > their buildings are right next to muggle buildings, although the muggles are > unaware. Since that is the case, why is Ron so clueless about how muggle > things operate. Wouldn't he have seen someone using a pay phone on the street or > maybe been so curious about how a bus worked that he got on one? Your thoughts, > please. > > "Pook" > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Actually, while many wizards live among muggles, Ron and the Weasley family does not. They live on the outskirts of a small town. I believe it's in Goblet of Fire where Mrs. Weasley says the muggle postman probably doesn't even know where their house is? I get the feeling the Weasleys don't have a lot of interaction with muggles. From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 19 08:00:12 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:00:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77941 If I may put in my twopennyworth for what it's worth. When I was the same age as (OOTP) Harry (just a few years ago!!), I was probably in the same boat. There is a tendency for boys to take an interest in one another in early teens and being in an all boys senior school (which was quite the norm in the UK at that time), your attention was drawn more to your own physical changes and also to other boys - sometimes at the level of comparison. Girls were a strange set of beings who were very difficult to read. I can remember even at teacher training college making the same sort of gaffes that Harry has made. A la GOF, I can still recall (blushing somewhat) having a disastrous evening at a college ball when everything seemed to go wrong. I hope that HP will get his feet well grounded in the next couple of years in his teens and feel more at home with himself by the end of Hogwarts. Geoff From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Aug 19 08:26:03 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:26:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) References: Message-ID: <003c01c3662c$a4183570$3af3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 77942 > Laura: > > Now wait a minute. We read in canon more than once that James and > sirius were popular. Bullies tend not to fit that description. So I > would deduce that their bad behavior was directed at people who were > out of line in some obvious way. And we know that James straightened > up by the time he was 16 (or else he couldn't have been a candidate > for Head Boy when he was 17). Once he did that, Sirius would > probably have cooled out himself, since he held James in greater > esteem than anyone else (and he would have lost his favorite co- > conspirator). > > We just don't have the whole picture of the James/Sirius-Snape > relationship. And now it looks like we never will. > Me: The bullies that were in my class were the most popular. That's what I had to feel when I tried to defend myself (I was totally unpopular). So it's not always that bullies anunpopular.... the more popular they get the better their chance is to go on with what they are doing and not being stoped! Yours Finchen From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 08:44:23 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:44:23 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "nappyronin" wrote: > linlou: > I posted an analysis of the prophecy a little over a month > ago > that addresses this as well as the rest of the prophecy. > > me: > I just read your post and the ones after it and they got me to > thinking. Personally, I've always felt that Harry wouldn't make it > out of the series alive. (call it a gut feeling since I don't have > much more concrete proof than whats been debated here) And remember > that the protection that Lilly gave Harry happened when she > sacrificed herself for him. It could be that this self sacrifice > could be the "power the Dark Lord knows not." I mean, he clearly > doesn't know squat about giving up ones life for a friend, he has no > problem leaving his DEs out to dry. At any rate, I'm starting to > think that perhaps the "love that will defeat LV" that people have > been alluding to could be the act of Harry sacrificing himself for > LV, thereby showing his Tom Riddle side what true "love" really is > and allowing the Dark Lord to be defeated and destroyed once and for > all. > > Just my two knuts.. > > ~Ev who still thinks all you need is love That is quite interesting, but let us all remember, these are basically children's stories. (Ripping good tales for us adults, too.) I don't seriously consider that Harry will die. It wouldn't make sense for the children. I know that JKR has jokingly hinted that Harry would die. But isn't she notoriously known for giving red herrings in her interviews? She has said that death is a part of life and she wanted to bring to children that death can be sometimes sensless. But to kill off Harry? I doubt that. I doubt that any of the trio will die. I believe that even though she tends to lead us to other places, she still believes in "happily ever after". (Not in the Brother's Grimm sense, although if you read the original tales, they are also quite gruesome. We tend to think of Fairy Tales in the Disney Sense. I was thinking more in the "Into the Woods" sense of happily ever after.) Yes, terrible things are still to happen. But to kill off Harry, Ron, or Hermione? I think not. As the kids love to say in the books - I don't like this, I don't like this, at all. D From shokoono at gmx.de Tue Aug 19 09:05:28 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:05:28 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How to do Legillimency [was: Snape, Legilimency and end of "Prisoner of Azkaban", MD] References: Message-ID: <006a01c36631$1cbb3f50$3af3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 77944 > > AAm wrote: > <<< Just one question : why didn't Snape used his Legilimency skills > at the end of PoA to find out the thuth about Sirius and Peter (or to > discover what happened after that ?) >>> Me: It might be off page but didn't anbody realise that you neet to mutter under aour breath? It's (like) a curse. It's in the book. Shortly before Harry breaks into Snape's memory he can see him standing there muttering under his breath! It's not said that he did so in PoA and I think Fudge would have noticed it. I don't even think it's not that legal for it looks like a curse and most of all: It's one of LV weapons to detect untruthfulness! It might be that DD used it when talking to Sirius but it's not quoted. Legillimency is not something you do without any obvious sing everybody standing beside you wouldn't see! Yours Finchen From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 19 09:18:20 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:18:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin as next Headmaster References: Message-ID: <3F41EB5C.4010606@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77945 Anna wrote: > Lupin seems so caring, selfless, soft spoken > and introspective (notwithstanding the full moon episodes). > I can't think of any explicit expression of rage or anger on > his part. When Lupin witnesses the violent death of the only > remaining person with whom he spent the happiest moments of his > life, (Peter Pettigrew, being evil, doesn't count), he internalizes > what has to be heart wrenching pain. Instead of raging, he focuses > his attention on keeping Harry safe. I think that is incredibly > sad. > > "Anna" Lupin's combination of deep wisdom, selfless attitude, deep feeling, calm exterior, and excellent methods of bringing out the best in people, mark him out to me as Dumbledore's natural sucessor at Hogwarts. This assumes that DD is going to die in book 6/7, but I think we all accept that is inevitable. I also am inclined to think a permanent cure for his afliction will be found before then. Maybe Neville can help us here? What say you? digger From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 19 09:27:09 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:27:09 -0000 Subject: Wizards, witches, warlocks, and hags ... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > ADVERTISEMENT > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rebecca M" wrote: > > > ... when Harry is staying at the Leaky Cauldron ... PoA, ... and > > mentions warlocks and hags ... -- any thoughts on how they might > > differ from witches/wizards? Is there canon on this that I've > > overlooked? > > > > ...edited.... > > > > Rebecca > > bboy_mm: (edited) > > I think to draw any information on Hags we have to us formal > definitions and mythology. > > Hag n. 1. An old woman considered ugly or frightful. 2.a. A witch; a > sorceress. b. Obsolete. A female demon (Am Heritage Dic) > > I think the female demon is probably the most significant as I don't > think Hags are considered very nice people. In mythology, the only > thing I really know about Hags is that they typically eat children. > > Note that the Hag in the Leaky Cauldron orders a plate of RAW liver. > > Having said all that and what I said in my previous posts, I have to > add that I don't think we really know what the distinction is. > > Just a thought. > bboy_mn In the section of FBAWTFT on 'What is a beast?', hags are described as "gliding about the place in search of children to eat." The use of 'gliding' is interesting; it could imply magical means of locomotion, somewhat like Dementors. They always seem to keep their faces covered, too. Kneasy From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Tue Aug 19 07:47:08 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:47:08 -0000 Subject: Witness to LV attack on Harry at Godric's Hollow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77947 --- "Arya" wrote: > SNIP > In PoA, (US, p205, bottom) Fudge says "And then, barely a week > after the Fidelius Charm had been performed--" that Black betrayed > them (meaning that was Halloween night when Volde lost his > powers). So we have the Potters only going under Fidelius a week > before their death. and nearly a year and a half after the prophecy > was made. > I say that Dumbledore kept it a secret for a long time until such a > time as his "network of spies (same chapter of PoA) could inform > him that the Potters were in danger. Earlier in that same chapter Fudge said, "Not many people are aware that the Potters knew You-Know-Who was after them. Dumbledore, who was of course working tirelessly against You-Know-Who, had a number of useful SPIES. One of them tipped him off, and he alerted James and Lily at once. He advised them to go into hiding." I think this is where Snape proved his loyalty to Dumbledore. He was that spy. After Black went to Azkaban, Snape was awarded the Hogwarts teaching position (that is why Sirius was suprised to hear that Snape taught at Hogwarts. It happened after he went to prison.) However, I think Snape was more loyal to LV than OotP then. Even though no DE knew all the others (because LV didn't trust them with all the information) Snape knew Peter was a DE. He may have even recruited Wormtail into the DE. (I still don't trust Snape completely. Because of: - JKR interviews - his delay of 2 to 4 hours to send Harry help in the MoM - the bad intuitive feelings from Harry, Neville, Moody and Black - LV would want a spy close to Dumbledore ... before and now - how my dad hid christmas gifts "Don't hide something in a place you think no-one will ever look. Hide it in a place where they have already looked, and thought they found eveything." Snape was thought to be the bad guy in PS/SS, but wasn't.) aussie From elfundeb at comcast.net Tue Aug 19 10:14:11 2003 From: elfundeb at comcast.net (elfundeb2) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:14:11 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Covering Old Ground Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77948 Greetings from Hexquaters! The list is extremely busy these days, and many members are frustrated to see the same questions being asked again and again. HPfGU does not ban the discussion of old topics. What *is* very irritating to other list members, however, is the repeating points and questions that have been discussed *very* recently. Therefore, we would like all posters to do the following: Please read the VFAQ and OoP FAQ (links on homepage) which will give you an overview of the most frequently asked questions. Please check to see if your questions have already been covered. Asking why Harry couldn't see the Thestrals at the end of GoF, for instance, is not acceptable, but giving a *new* theory as to *why* he couldn't, on the other hand, *is*. Please at least glance at the Fantastic Posts site, http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/ (also available via link on home page) so that you know what is there and where to check up on various old topics of conversation. If you want to discuss something which is likely to have been discussed in the past (whether Snape is a Vampire, for example) you can then refer to old posts on the subject and build on these, rather than presenting as new ideas which have already been documented. Please, if you are not regularly keeping up to date with discussion at least glance over the subject lines of posts for the last few days, preferably a week or so, so as to know whether what you want to say may have been dicussed recently. If you want to reply to a thread, then please read *all* of that thread first. Please attempt to use the search function. It isn't great, but you should get some results with persistence. If you see someone bringing up a topic that has recently been discussed, please don't get angry at that person. However, feel free to guide that person towards previous discussions where relevant. Thank you The HPfGU Administration Team From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Tue Aug 19 10:34:23 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:34:23 -0000 Subject: row 97 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kellymcj2000" wrote: > How did the prophecy keeper know in what row to put the prophecy > about Harry? As far as I know, it is generally assumed the rows > refer to years and there is nothing in the prophecy about what year > the big confrontation takes place or how old Harry or Voldy will be. Oh, I always assumed the prophecies were put up there when they were made, meaning they are somewhat sorted after *that* date. It's interesting though that it's row number 97, I never really noticed that, but remember: if the big confrontation takes place at the end of book 7, it will already be 1998. evangelina From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 19 11:12:59 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:12:59 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape Vampire Theory (kinda long) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308191312.59588.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77950 subrosax99: > Me: Surely you aren't implying that I lack all subtlety and > imagination? I am more than capable of deducing that Snape is a > vampire without him prancing around like Bela Lugosi. My conclusions > are based on the assumption that vampires are categorically undead, > and must drink the blood of the living to survive. Snape does not > appear to meet either of these criteria. The fact that he goes out in > daylight or sleeps in a bed does not prove or disprove anything. Not really, I owe you an apology for nasty uncalled humor, I'm sorry. I was trying to reach the last line, that a lot of details doesn't prove or disprove anything. If you like the vamp theories, I'd like to know your responses to Kelly's questions: <<<<1. How is this relevant to the plot and how does this aid to further the development of the books? 2. Does this directly affect the course of the books or the final outcome of book 7?>>>> <> If I'd knew about a werewolf like Lupin... he was not the kind, to me. <> Dunno. I prefer other characters as vampires, but I am a little extrange about vampires. The vampires I'd like to see are DD, McG or Lucius. <> Thank you. I knew it wasn't possible, but I was let with the image, from all the thread, that some people thought it was. I scanned the 33400-34100 range yesterday, I just wanted someone to say it can't be proved. <> As I haven't a too categorical definition, they can be a hell to plot :) I hate dhampires, let me say, so I'll let them appart. A vampire is undead. I don't see much of a point on a vampire not being dead. They are not invulnerable but don't age, as Tolkien elves. They feed on blood. I think WW vampires do, at least, as I allow vampires that drain life, as in Life-Force. But I don't know if they can eat normal food (thought it is useless for them in a nutritional sense) or just pretend to. Vampirism transmision is not made by means that would result in a plague, or they have enough resources to control it, otherwise the status quo of vampires as beings is a bit shocking. As the rest of the WW, they are 'unseen' by humans. What I wonder is what happens if one of them goes trough the Veil, because he's already dead. Repeating the sorry line, silmariel From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Aug 19 11:20:03 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 11:20:03 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77951 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > Yes, terrible things are still to happen. But to kill off Harry, > Ron, or Hermione? I think not. As the kids love to say in the > books - I don't like this, I don't like this, at all. > > It wouldn't be unprecedented, though. The final Narnia book is pretty strong stuff, too, describing the end of the world and the final judgement - the good receiving eternal life and the bad disappearing into the darkness. And in the last paragraph we find out that all of our favourite characters DID die - but it's still a happy ending. Wanda From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 19 11:28:37 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:28:37 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape, Legilimency and end of "Prisoner of Azkaban" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308191328.37937.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77952 Laura: > At the end of PoA, I don't think he was in any > state to do any sophisticated magic, being in the midst of a major > league hissy fit. He wouldn't want to know any exonerating evidence > about Sirius. This is a guy who's fueled by hatred, anger and > resentment. I don't know. He could have more motives, and he could be managing more things than we imagine. There's a great post, number 39662, "The Spying Game and the Shrieking Shack" that covers it. Also, some cases were ligilimency could have been used are at the Lexicon, http://www.hp-lexicon.org/legilimency.html (I hope this wasn't posted yesterday) silmariel From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 12:06:24 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:06:24 -0000 Subject: Giving Umbridge what she deserves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77953 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Luck" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > wrote: > > Laura: > > We had some posts a little while back that suggested that Umbridge > > might be rehabilitated by the MoM so as to cover up the disasters > she > > caused at Hogwarts. But...I'd like to suggest another fate. We > all > > remember that she sent dementors after Harry without Fudge's > > knowledge or permission-and she admitted as much in front of a > > roomful of witnesses, bless her spiteful little heart. Shouldn't > she > > be arrested, tried and sentenced to a nice long stretch in Azkaban > > herself? > > > > Dan: > > I hope we see her again, and I think Azkaban would serve her right > (except for the lack of dementors--she'd just be sitting in a cell > with monochomatic robes, which is an ungodly punishment). If she were > charged (which she should), perhaps add to the list child abuse (the > quill) and attempted use of an Unforgivable curse (if that's illegal). > > > > > > > > luck: > Azkaban is not a good enough punishment. I think she needs to spend > some time with Hagrid's brother Grawp. that will be interesting. Maybe she should be made to do lines with that evil quill or hers! fran From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue Aug 19 12:06:59 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:06:59 -0000 Subject: Fidelius curse/What went on in Godric's Hollow ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77954 CW writes: Kelly and Alec came back with some very interesting responses to my post (77848) about (a)how the Fidelius charm worked, (b)what really went on in Godric's Hollow - see snipped bits from their posts below. My further thoughts are: (a)Perhaps the Fidelius charm was only destroyed for James and Lily when they were killed, but not for Harry, who still lived ? Therefore, concerned neighbours would be able to see their bodies, but not know that Harry was there too. Harry could only be found by someone who knew the secret, and theories abound as to who knew, and how they found out. I still think Dumbledore was alerted to the catastrophe by someone at Godric's Hollow who sent him an owl almost as soon as it happened. Although that person would not know about James and his family being there, a blown-up house is an unusual- enough event for someone on the look out in nervous times to report it anyway. Dumbledore would twig instantly it was James & Lily because of the associations of Godric's Hollow with James' family (see below). An aside - I still can't work out why Dumbledore wasn't the secret keeper in the first place. I thought he was supposed to be the one person Voldie was afraid of. Given what DD knew of the prophecy, it seems almost criminally incompetent of them all......... (b)I think Alec is very possibly right that Peter blew up the house in an effort to kill Harry by more normal means. What I cannot understand is why Peter returned the next day to face Sirius. He may well have learned somehow that he had not killed Harry (perhaps he could hear the baby crying under the rubble when none of the neighbours could, since they didn't know the secret ?). But Peter is supposed to be a weak, frightened individual - why on earth return to face an unknown number of muggles and wizards swarming about the place, including potentially DEs, and in particular, a terrifyingly angry Sirius, intent on vengeance ? Ok, I understand it is necessary for the plot for Sirius to be misunderstood, go to Azkaban etc, but the action seems very out of character for Peter. Why didn't he just run for it ? After all, there was no point in fighting for Voldemort anymore. I can only think that, in the classic murder mystery style, Peter left behind some terribly incriminating piece of evidence, and just had to retrieve it. Maybe his own wand ? On the events of that subsequent day, is it possible that amongst the 12 muggles that were killed, were relatives of James & Lily ? If Godrics Hollow was indeed the family home of the James's, then it is entirely possible that members of their family were around the wreck, trying to see what had happened. Although they were Muggles, we know that this could include Lily's family, and for all we know, James was the son of muggles, or had lots of muggles in his family too. It would explain why there is only Petunia left to look after Harry, if the whole family was wiped out that day. Also, although all the newspaper reports say 'muggles', this could also include 'squibs', as Harry's trial seemed to indicate that the WW treated squibs more or less the same as Muggles. Finally, note another instance of the 13 motif in these killings - 12 muggles and 'dead' Peter. Many people have posted on this repeated symbolism in the books. CW wrote: The killing of Lily and James perhaps instantly destroyed the effect of the Fidelius charm ? And as the house was apparently also reduced to rubble as part of the attack, presumably any number of witches and wizards in the Godric Hollow area would immediately be able to see what had happened and send owls to all and sundry ? Kelly wrote: If Lily and James dying lifted the charm then why wasn't Harry protected as well. Harry was still alive, so the death of the occupants being the charm would mean baby Harry was not part of the spell. ..... I think that the destruction of the house shows that quite a bit more went on at Godric's Hollow that a clean and easy killing of James and Lily. Alec wrote: Any one ever notice that Peter knew how and could blow things up to such a degree that mass death and destruction could occur? And did anyone ever notice that James and Lily's house had also blow up? My theory is this: Voldermort killed James and Lily, attempted to kill Harry all while Peter was outside watching and waiting. But he realized that his Master was defeated-- not dead, but not alive; went into the house to find the James and Lily dead, Harry alive, and Voldermorts wand. Peter took his Master's wand and hid it before Sirus caught up with him the next day. But before leaving he attempted to kill Harry by blowing up the house. He reasoned that if a direct curse from LV could not kill Harry, then he should try something different. However, the charm that saved Harry's life protects him not just from voldermort, but from voldermort's plans and mingeons-- while living at the place where "his blood lives". And where could his blood live, but at his parents's home? CW wrote: Godric's Hollow had close associations with the history of Quidditch (it was where the Snitch was invented), so although it was perhaps not an all-wizard village like Hogsmead, there may have been quite a few wizards settled there because of this tradition, many of whom may have been close neighbours of Lily and James, even though they couldn't see them temporarily whilst the Fidelius charm was protecting them. I thought it was a very appropriate place for James to want to live anyway. Kelly wrote: I think the snitch invention is right on target with "what James family did to make so much money." I think there are further hints to this in "Snapes Worst Memory" when James is doodling a snitch, then later is playing with one outside. People have been wondering why James would be playing with a snitch when he was not a seeker... I think the reason is that he is showing off his family's importance and not his Quidditch position. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 19 12:12:59 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:12:59 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77955 Down on the beach, Marina was smiling, having just explained the Prank rather concisely. "Sometimes the simplest explanations really are best." She loosened her grip on Kirstini's throat for a moment. Kirstini emitted a few sputtery noises. "I think she wants to say something," Derranimer observed. Marina dropped Kirstini onto the beach. Kirstini picked herself up, and began whispering hoarsely. "For goodness sake! Didn't you read any of my pre-exposition disclaimers? I *love* Sirius. I do! The thing is - " Befofre she could carry on, an owl had swooped out of nowhere with a piece of parchment attached to its leg. It landed on Kirstini's shoulder, money bag held out expectantly. "It's from Arcum," said Kirstini. "It says that your explanation is too straightforward for JKR. And I'm inclined to agree with him or her. Although he/she does says something else which, while offering a more complex explanation, can't be right. Ahem - "How about this? James wants to impress Lily, and knows how protective she can be of Snape. Sirius wants to get back at Snape for something. So they get together and form a plan. James then "finds out" about the prank in front of Lily when he sees Snape on the map headed towards the Whomping Willow, timing it so he can pull Snape out and act like a hero before Snape was far enough in to get more then a major fright. James is then a "hero", impressing Lily, and Snape is scared out of his wits, per Sirius's intention. In this case, there isn't even the random factor of getting there "just in time". Everything is premeditated from the beginning, and murder isn't intended by Sirius at all..." " Kirstini concluded, and looked at the assembled company, her face slightly screwed up. "The thing is, there isn't any life debt there, is there? I remember this coming up in an old SUNLIGHT ULTRA discussion - if Remus hadn't really intended to kill Peter in the Shrieking Shack, then Peter wasn't bound by a real magical contract to Harry. Ditto Snape to James in this scenario, which is why I feel that James hadn't been in on it from the beginning. The reason I was so long-winded with my first" - here she paused, and glared at Marina - "explanation was that I felt that the Prank had to be the catalyst for the emotional changes which take place in the group dynamic over the next five years. It's the latest piece of information about the Marauders that we have before Peter betrays James, and because it hasn't been discussed in canon fully, I think that there's got to be something more to it. In Arcum's version, there's no explanation of any moral turnaround in James. There doesn't necessarily have to be one, as James carried on hexing Snape after the Prank (the sensitive wee bugger), but this version of James isn't one that Hagrid etc. would describe in such glowing terms. And Marina's explanation, which cuts out Peter and Lily completely, offers no potential for motivation in Peter to betray or Lily to fall in love. Again, it doesn't have to - I'm still working on the fact that this is the last piece of information we have about the group. But Lily has to understand the danger that both James and Snape were in if the Prank is the point where she begins to see James in another light - and the fact that Remus was a werewolf wasn't ever disclosed to the rest of the school. And as for Sirius," Kirstini sighed sadly. Marina bristled. "Sirius isn't stupid. He couldn't be plotting murder for weeks without realising that he was plotting murder." "Well, he managed not to realise it in the time it took to come up with the scheme, put it into practise, have James informed of what he had done (somehow), and have Snape rescued. Nope, I'm sticking with my original idea on this one. Sixteen" (she extended a friendly tongue at Marina) "year-old Sirius was such a superior, oblivious creature that he'd never really thought about wee Snivelley as a human being. His life wasn't an issue, up until the point where it became endangered. Actually, I think he comes out of my version slightly better than he does in yours. At least in mine it can all be attributed to *adolescent* stupidity..." Something in Marina's face at this point made Kirstini wonder if perhaps she'd gone too far with that one. She took a couple oof steps back, and adjusted her scarves round her neck. "And I'm really, really ill." she said, pathetically. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 12:29:03 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:29:03 -0000 Subject: inflamatory post - Internet=Misunderstanding In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77956 > > > >severusbook4: > > > >I am not the person who would ask for censorship > > > > of these posts either. > > > > > > madeyemood: > > > okay, sev, say i'm williing to give you the benefit of the doubt. > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > Point: With any communication on the Internet, we need to temper what > > we read and what we write with a little quiet wisdom, and when in > > doubt, just lighten up and have some fun. > Laura: Maybe we should just go back to discussing underwear...seems to create a lot fewer hard feelings. *sighs* Is there such a thing as a virtual cookout or something where we can all indulge in our favorite summer beverages and chill? (I'll bring the root beer and vanilla ice cream!) From sylviablundell at aol.com Tue Aug 19 12:51:11 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:51:11 -0000 Subject: Full Moon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77957 Forgive me if I'm being really slow on the uptake, but in the Snape's Worst Memory scene, why does Sirius wish it was full moon.? Apart from being an extremely fraught time for one of his closest friends, what possible advantage can it be to Sirius? I'd hate to think it was the excitement of being close to a wearwolf at that time. Both Sirius and James remind me in this scene of Steerforth in David Copperfield, when he is taunting poor Mr. Mell. A lot of people seem to like him too, I can't think why. From melclaros at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 13:24:29 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:24:29 -0000 Subject: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: <003c01c3662c$a4183570$3af3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77958 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > The bullies that were in my class were the most popular. That's what I had > to feel when I tried to defend myself (I was totally unpopular). > So it's not always that bullies anunpopular.... the more popular they get > the better their chance is to go on with what they are doing and not being > stoped! There are a number of reasons for that--and yes it's universally true, bullies of the James/Sirius starjock variety are popular because 1. no one DARE cross them for fear of becoming their next victim and 2. because maybe just maybe they'll let me hang out with them and then maybe just maybe some of that "coolness" will rub off on me. Melpomene, who was in the "weird" category and was never invited to hang out with the cool, popular bullies, thank heavens! From ajlboston at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 13:24:35 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:24:35 -0000 Subject: small thought on Mark Evans Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77959 So I was pondering the recent thread that the thin thestral-seeing Slytherin boy could be Snape's son, and I wondered what name he would have, and remembered the Severus Snape =Perseus Evans Anagram threads, and thought of Mark Evans whom Dudley had beaten up, and recalled that people were theorizing that Mark might be a cousin related to Lily and show up at Hogwarts next year when he turns 11. But I thought, well if he is a magical child, why would he get so beaten up by Dudley-- surely in that case he would have displayed some magical surprise defense, similar to Harry's ending up on the roof when he was running from Dudley as a child. (Getting pulverized by the buff junior heavyweight champ teenager surely would qualify as a reason for his hidden abilities to kick in, would it not?) (Then I wondered why Harry doesn't get cited by the MoM for the jolt that shocked Vernon when he was strangling Harry in OOP Chap 1, which some people here thought was part of the magical protection on Privet Drive...) --A.J. From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 13:26:01 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:26:01 -0000 Subject: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: <003c01c3662c$a4183570$3af3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77960 Laura: > > > > Now wait a minute. We read in canon more than once that James and > > sirius were popular. Bullies tend not to fit that description. Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > The bullies that were in my class were the most popular. That's what I had > to feel when I tried to defend myself (I was totally unpopular). > So it's not always that bullies anunpopular.... the more popular they get > the better their chance is to go on with what they are doing and not being > stoped! > > Yours Finchen Laura again: Hmm. It sounds like bullies have changed since my high school days, lo those many years ago. I don't think of bullies as smart or likeable, and James and Sirius were both. Also, in my day, smart kids were very rarely jocks of any sort, as James was. Smart kids tended to be sort of isolated in their (our) own group and the general attitude toward them was a mixture of respect (because our school was very college-oriented and everyone knew that the winners of the high-school game were the ones who went to the "best" colleges) and contempt (because we tended to be more socially awkward than jocks or popular kids). So maybe these lines have blurred in the intervening years. And it depends on how you define bullying. The kind of relentless, merciless teasing to which J&S subject Snape is one kind; subjecting people to actual physical harm is another. J&S are clearly fond of indulging in the former kind, but there's no canon suggesting that they truly put Snape in harm's way (until, perhaps, the prank). In the pensieve scene, James humiliates SS, without a doubt. But SS slices James's face open. I'm not saying it's unprovoked, but it's a different order of magnitude. Moreover, I think of bullies as people who are indiscriminate in their attacks-whoever is in their way gets run over. J&S don't give me that impression; they seem to save their harsh treatment for Snape. Bullying is done to gain power. J&S already have it-they don't need to hurt or intimidate people. It seems like their nastiness was reserved for SS, who, let's face it, didn't put up much of a fight. Sure, he threw hexes and jinxes at James whenever he could, but verbally he wasn't in the game at all. I guess my point is that I don't think any of the three boys was a bully in the conventional sense of the word. They clearly had a personal war going, but there isn't any indication that it extended beyond the three of them. We don't see student!Snape go after Peter or Remus (again, the prank is an exception, but even then Snape wasn't trying to hurt Remus physically). Adult!Snape takes out his festering anger at J&S on Remus in PoA, but I imagine it's only because neither James nor Sirius is available. In OoP, Snape leaves Remus alone and does all his fighting with Sirius. It figures that of the three of them, the one who seemed to mature the most quickly died first. From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 19 13:29:07 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:29:07 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: <3F41EB5C.4010606@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77961 Anna said: Lupin seems so caring, selfless, soft spoken and introspective (notwithstanding the full moon episodes). digger said: Lupin's combination of deep wisdom, selfless attitude, deep feeling, calm exterior, and excellent methods of bringing out the best in people, mark him out to me as Dumbledore's natural sucessor at Hogwarts. Snip What say you? Now me: I say no. He's a Werewolf! I love him but the man turns into a violent animal that kills on the full moon. Fantastic Beasts & Where to find them rates Werewolves as XXXXX x 16: "A known Wizard killer / impossible to train or domesticate who actively seeks out Human pray above all others." Of course, this is not Lupin's fault that's the tragedy of his life. But what parent would ever allow such a person to be in charge of their children? I have read in other posts the idea that Lupin carries a decease like AIDS and there are defiantly similarities in the way the public shuns him and are terrified of him and there are lessons to be learn in tolerance and compassion from Lupins but this is also very different. Lupin has a decease that turns him into an uncontrollable mass murder once every month. There is not Headship in his future. Mandy From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 13:33:19 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:33:19 -0000 Subject: Full Moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77962 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Forgive me if I'm being really slow on the uptake, but in the Snape's > Worst Memory scene, why does Sirius wish it was full moon.? Apart > from being an extremely fraught time for one of his closest friends, > what possible advantage can it be to Sirius? I'd hate to think it > was the excitement of being close to a wearwolf at that time. > Both Sirius and James remind me in this scene of Steerforth in David > Copperfield, when he is taunting poor Mr. Mell. A lot of people seem > to like him too, I can't think why. Severus here: Sirius is missing the groups romps. At every full moon, Lupin is scuttled away to the screaming shack, so his lycanthrope change can take place unseen. Sirius, James, and wormtail (forgot his real name) Change into their animal forms and run with their friend in wolf form. They are the ones that keep him from trying to eat innocent people. Yes, it is the idea of running around with a werewolf. At least that is my take on the subject. Severus Snape From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 13:33:53 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:33:53 -0000 Subject: Getting the secret out... PP instead of SB In-Reply-To: <20030818183925.64028.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77963 > meltowne: > > Since the (fidelius)charm was cast only shortly > before they were killed, I would assume Harry > > was directly protected by it, meaning that for > > Hagrid to rescue him, > > Hagrid had to know the location. That, of course, > > means someone told > > Hagrid where they were - yes, we know Dumbledore > > sent him, but since > > Dumbledore was not the secret keeper, he couldn't > > have told Hagrid > > where to go - just that he needed to go! > > > > So this all begs the questions of how the order was > > informed of the > > location, without anyone finding out that PP was the > > secret keeper > > instead of SB. We know DD wrote out the location of > > Grimauld Place > > to give the Harry, or he would not have been able to > > enter. Did PP > > similarly write down the location of the hiding > > place, and then > > deliver it to everyone else, giving the impression > > that SB sent him? > > Kathryn: It's nice they you're trying to find an > explanation, but I think you've actually found a > flint. > Since Peter has gone completely to the dark side, I > don't think he would have told the Order where the > Potters were because it would probably get him in > trouble. > Lupin, Sirius or both said in the Shrieking Shack that > they thought there was a Mole in the Order so they > probably told Peter not to tell the Order the location > because someone could report to Voldemort. > I doubt Peter told anyone other than Voldemort that > Lily and James were at Godric's Hollow. > Therefore, there is no way that Dumbledore could know > the location and tell Hagrid. > So, unless there is something we don't know about the > Fidelius Charm, that's a mistake. A thought popped into my head: Prof. Flitwick said that "You-Know- Who could search the villiage where James and Lily were staying and never find them, not even if he had his nose pressed his against their sitting room window." Maybe the charm was placed only for You-Know-Who. Death Eaters may have been repelled by a different charm. Friends and family would not have been affected. This would make sense in light of the prophesy. LV would have gone there himself, thinking he was the only one who could destroy Harry. Just for a twist, maybe it was placed so that the protection would lift if anything happened to any of the principles so that help could arrive. It just seemed odd to me that Flitwick specificly mentioned "You-Know- Who" rather than saying that "anyone" could search...and not find them... Ginger, ready for a long nap From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Tue Aug 19 13:37:06 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:37:06 -0000 Subject: Giving Umbridge what she deserves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77964 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lady Luck" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" > > wrote: > > > Laura: > > > We had some posts a little while back that suggested that > Umbridge > > > might be rehabilitated by the MoM so as to cover up the disasters > > she > > > caused at Hogwarts. But...I'd like to suggest another fate. We > > all > > > remember that she sent dementors after Harry without Fudge's > > > knowledge or permission-and she admitted as much in front of a > > > roomful of witnesses, bless her spiteful little heart. Shouldn't > > she > > > be arrested, tried and sentenced to a nice long stretch in > Azkaban > > > herself? > > > > > > Dan: > > > I hope we see her again, and I think Azkaban would serve her > right > > (except for the lack of dementors--she'd just be sitting in a cell > > with monochomatic robes, which is an ungodly punishment). If she > were > > charged (which she should), perhaps add to the list child abuse > (the > > quill) and attempted use of an Unforgivable curse (if that's > illegal). luck: > > Azkaban is not a good enough punishment. I think she needs to spend > > some time with Hagrid's brother Grawp. that will be interesting. > > Maybe she should be made to do lines with that evil quill or hers! > fran Hi Fran~ I agree, and will take it a step futher and say they should snap her wand (or not let her get another since the Centaurs broke hers), and make her work in the forbidden forest with the giant, werewolfs, and centaurs ... you know be *junior* grounds keeper with Hagrid as her boss. It would be one of those community serice jobs... she would have to do it for a few years... (said with very evil grin) Ta Ta ... Tj From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Tue Aug 19 13:38:27 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:38:27 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full Moon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77965 In a message dated 8/19/2003 8:52:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, sylviablundell at aol.com writes: > Forgive me if I'm being really slow on the uptake, but in the Snape's > Worst Memory scene, why does Sirius wish it was full moon.? Apart > from being an extremely fraught time for one of his closest friends, > what possible advantage can it be to Sirius? I'd hate to think it > was the excitement of being close to a wearwolf at that time. > me: Well, saying it that way does paint it in a different light than I had seen it. My perception was that Sirius was saying it because when the four of them are roaming about during the full moon, it is very exciting (and yes, dangerous), and they plan adventures to do during that time. Sirius, I think we can safely say, is a daredevil, he likes the thrill, the dangers. That said, I don't really think it's the danger of being close to a werewolf, in particular, because werewolves are only dangerous to humans, so not a threat to him as a dog. But the memory definitely solidified that Sirius was very much into himself at that age (people can argue he still is, but I'm not going there) and wasn't thinking about Remus's horrible transformations when he said it. ~RSFJenny, who adores Sirius, even if he was an arrogant jerk in school ;) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 19 13:41:30 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:41:30 -0000 Subject: Full Moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77966 No: HPFGUIDX 77967 Sorry if this has already been asked. Lupin is always descibed as being a little worse for wear, or unhealthy. Do you think this is a result of not feeding on humans at every full moon? Or a result of the serious potion he has to take? If it's the lack of fresh meat, I say the MOM should feed Umbridge to him if it would help build his strength. Severus From bibphile at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 13:51:51 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:51:51 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > Now me: > I say no. He's a Werewolf! I love him but the man turns into a > violent animal that kills on the full moon. I say no and it has nothing to do with him being a werewolf. In PoA he didn't tell anyone about Sirius being Snuffles or knowing about the tunnels. He fully believed that Sirius was trying to kill Harry. He chose to endager a students life rather that reveal he youthful rule-breaking. Until I see eidence that he wouldn't do the same thing again, he doesn't need to be Headmaster. I know he admitted he was wrong, but that doesn't indicate to me that he wouldn't do it again. He knew it was wrong when he did it. I favor the obvious choice of McGonagall as a successor. If she dies to, then who knows? I have no idea. bibphile From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 19 13:58:05 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:58:05 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin as next Headmaster References: Message-ID: <3F422CED.1010406@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77969 ghinghapuss wrote: > Anna said: > Lupin seems so caring, selfless, soft spoken > and introspective (notwithstanding the full moon episodes). > > digger said: > Lupin's combination of deep wisdom, selfless attitude, deep feeling, > calm exterior, and excellent methods of bringing out the best in > people, mark him out to me as Dumbledore's natural sucessor at > Hogwarts. > Snip > What say you? > > Now me: > I say no. He's a Werewolf! I love him but the man turns into a > violent animal that kills on the full moon. Fantastic Beasts & Where > to find them rates Werewolves as XXXXX x 16: "A known Wizard killer / > impossible to train or domesticate who actively seeks out Human pray > above all others." > > Of course, this is not Lupin's fault that's the tragedy of his life. > But what parent would ever allow such a person to be in charge of > their children? I have read in other posts the idea that Lupin > carries a decease like AIDS and there are defiantly similarities in > the way the public shuns him and are terrified of him and there are > lessons to be learn in tolerance and compassion from Lupins but this > is also very different. Lupin has a decease that turns him into an > uncontrollable mass murder once every month. There is not Headship in > his future. > Mandy > digger again: Ahem. You snipped out the bit where I said I think a permanent cure will be found for him before that. Neville will be a whizz with plants AND potions by then. Thats why he will be the next herbology professor. digger From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Tue Aug 19 14:11:53 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:11:53 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin always being sickly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77970 Severus Said: >>> Sorry if this has already been asked. Lupin is always descibed as being a little worse for wear, or unhealthy. Do you think this is a result of not feeding on humans at every full moon? Or a result of the serious potion he has to take? If it's the lack of fresh meat, I say the MOM should feed Umbridge to him if it would help build his strength.<<< Lady Macbeth: Yuck. I prefer the 'being fed to a box of starving blast-ended skrewts' method myself. XD Umbridge completely and totally disgusts me, and I'm fairly certain that she'd taste disgusting to anything that might attempt to eat her as well. I had thought of tossing both her and Percy to the giant squid, but I figured it'd take on bite and toss them both back up on shore. XD LOL That aside... I think Lupin's being sickly has more to do with the physical and mental toll that the transformation takes on him during each full moon. Even with the Wolfsbane Potion, he still transforms, and if anyone's ever spent time truly looking at what that involves on the physical body and mental state of the person it happens to, it's a wonder most of them survive it and NO wonder that they go mad. Then we pair that up with the fact that Lupin can't keep regular employment and really can't even enjoy being a full member of society because of his werewolf status - now he not only has the physical and mental trauma of the transformation to deal with, but the knowledge that he's considered a "monster" by society because of that transformation that he hates so much. It's just a little more stress than anyone should really have to take, and because Lupin IS taking it, and still trying to be a friend to Harry, a member of the order, and a member of society, it's showing in his health. -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RoxyElliot at aol.com Tue Aug 19 14:46:55 2003 From: RoxyElliot at aol.com (RoxyElliot at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:46:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Full Moon Message-ID: <1d6.f5f041f.2c73925f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77971 In a message dated 8/19/2003 8:52:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sylviablundell at aol.com writes: > Forgive me if I'm being really slow on the uptake, but in the Snape's > Worst Memory scene, why does Sirius wish it was full moon.? Apart > from being an extremely fraught time for one of his closest friends, > what possible advantage can it be to Sirius? Sirius enjoys the thrill of the escape and the risks involved. He gets a high from it. Also Lupin said in POA that having his friends come along made his transformations some of the best times he'd ever had at Hogwarts. Roxanne ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Hearing voices no one else can hear isn't a good sign, even in the wizarding world. -Ron Weasley [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 14:49:59 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:49:59 -0000 Subject: My Homework (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77972 I feel a bit bad filking this tune right after Mariner's brilliant filk on the same song (see #76159), but I was moved by the fact that HARRY, in addition to all the extraordinary challenges facing him, has also to deal with that most mundane of academic trials, namely HOMEWORK! My Homework To the tune of Tom Lehrer's My Home Town Dedicated to Mariner See the original text and hear a MIDI at: http://members.aol.com/quentncree/lehrer/hometown.htm THE SCENE: Gryffindor Common Room. Enter HARRY, in an intensely anxious state HARRY: This year I have my OWLS Should I throw in the towel? Our teachers have all proven to be jerks They have dispensed a mega-monumental mass As my homework. I cannot help but snore Before that ghostly bore Who turns all history to utter murk And he's assigned another 27 scrolls As my homework I remember Snape Potions was always dreadful and And it always left my head full At the end And there's a branch of magic they call Occlumency That Snape wants in my brain I just wish that man felt pain Professor Minnie M Will curse like Eminem If Transfiguration lessons you dare shirk So after 4 a.m. I'm still transforming cushions For my homework Sibyll demands journals On dreams that we recall As Umbridge over every lesson lurks (Shall I ? no, I think I've had enough detention) As my homework And there's also Charms, a class long-taught by Filius He was never supercilious Oh no He showed us just precisely how to hush a crow But mine still gives a caw I say there oughta be a law .. My teachers have a scheme To stop outlandish dreams It's working, though it's driving me berserk If I don't sleep then I can never dream at all, Thanks to homework! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 19 14:59:10 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:59:10 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: <3F422CED.1010406@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77973 digger again: Ahem. You snipped out the bit where I said I think a permanent cure will be found for him before that. Neville will be a whizz with plants AND potions by then. Thats why he will be the next herbology professor. digger Yes you are right and I apologize. I was caught up in the first part of your post and read it through without focusing on the end . However even if a cure can be found I'm inclined to agree with bibphile in his reply to both our posts. Lupin chose to endanger student's lives rather than reveal he broke school rules. Mandy, who will in future read posts full before shooting of a reply. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 15:26:23 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:26:23 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77974 What about Harry ? Anyone else scared of Harry ? Seriously, this boy is : a) powerful b) emotionally abused c) without any authority/father figure anymore d) stubborn e) proud (he thinks he can deal with almost anything on his own) f) led exclusively by his emotions (hatred, curiosity, resentment, love, etc... ) g) not mindful of most of other people's feelings (not even his own best friends, if he feels they've wronged him) That makes a particularly nasty and explosive mix... Del From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Tue Aug 19 15:33:26 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:33:26 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77975 I was reading OOP last night and this page just jumped out at me. Because Hermione is saying so forcfully that to trust DD is a given. But, we (Harry) learns that Dumbledore makes mistakes too, and his ego can lead him astray. (ie; that DD is the *most* powerful wiz that was. And not telling Harry *very* important things) Things that should have been shared *long* before. quote from Ch. 25 end of page 554 to 555. Harry is upset about Occlumency. Saying it's not a bag of laughs. And Ron is saying... Pg 554: Maybe it's not Harry's fault he can't close his mind," said Ron darkly, "What do you mean? said Hermione. Well, maybe Snape isn't really trying to help Harry..." Harry and Hermione starred at him. Ron looked darkly and meaningfully from one to the other. "Maybe," he said agin in a lower voice "he's actually trying to open Harry's mind a bit wider...make it easier for You-know-" "Shut up, Ron" said hermione angrily. "How many times have you suspected Snape, and when have you *ever* been right? Dumbledore trust him, he works for the Order, that ought to be enough." "He used to be a Death Eater," said Ron stubbornly. "And we've never seen proof that he really swapped sides..." "Dumbledore *trusts* him," Hermione repeated. "And if we *CAN'T TRUST DUMBLEDORE, WE CAN'T TRUST ANYONE."* And this is my point. Harry can't *trust* DD anymore (well not fully). Harry has learned a very hard lesson. But, my concern is that Harry is not going to share this lesson with R/H and I think this might lead to; in the next book Snape sliping up, and prove Ron right. I think for all of Hermione's smarts, *she* like DD are blinded by their abilities. Snape is going to try and kill Hermione. I think this for various reasons... but, the big one is that Hermione puts too much trust in DD. What do ya think? A new off the wall theory, but, I wanted to see what others thought of it. Thanks Tj From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 19 15:41:02 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:41:02 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77976 I know this has been discussed before and I'm raising it again in the hope that 2 months of digesting OotP has shed more light on the subject. What is the `something' we find out about Lily in book 5? Her hating James Potter? (Rowling herself said something would be reveled about her in book 5 and even more in book 7. If anyone out there knows where and when and what the exact quote by JKR is could you let me know?) The only new thing we learned about Lily that I can find was that she hated James Potter in their 5th year in school. Not very unusual and very understandable considering whom he was at that time. She obviously changed her mind later as she marred the boy and had a child with him, according to James' friends that happened sometime during their 7th year of school. I can't count the amount of times I changed my mind about boys when I was in secondary (high) school. That, in my opinon, is not much of a revelation. Are we to then assume she didn't in fact change her mind? If not, she then married him out of duress or necessity? I don't think so. Why? Let's see: Duress? Well children's lit is full of beautiful princesses being forced to marry evil Kings, although usually they are rescued just in the nick of time by their true love. So I suppose it could be possible, but all the photo's Harry has seen of his parents they both look very happy so I don't think so. Duress through an arranged marriage? Possible between two Pure Blood family, especially as the WW still seems to exist in the 19th century anyway, but Lily's family are 20th century muggles, so I don't see an arranged married there. Ok so we are left with necessity, which deals with teenage pregnancy. Happens all the time, but is still a big taboo in our society and I'm not sure it would show up in JKR's Harry Potter books. Even if it did it implies, through her choice to slept with him, that she liked him, even just a little bit so what's the big deal with her hating him a couple of years earler? Sorry I'm rambling on tryng to find a clue..... Is there another revelation that is hidden and I've just missed? Please help. Mandy From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 19 15:46:44 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:46:44 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77977 > What about Harry ? Anyone else scared of Harry ? Seriously, this boy is : > a) powerful > b) emotionally abused > c) without any authority/father figure anymore > d) stubborn > e) proud (he thinks he can deal with almost anything on his own) > f) led exclusively by his emotions (hatred, curiosity, resentment, > love, etc... ) > g) not mindful of most of other people's feelings (not even his own > best friends, if he feels they've wronged him) > That makes a particularly nasty and explosive mix... > Del Don't forget physically abused too. He was often thrown up against walls and throttled by his uncle. Beaten by his cousin in front of others. Forced to live in a cupboard, under the stairs. Never hugged once for 10 years! Between the ages of 1 and 11. I can't imagine what that does to a child. Mandy. From saitaina at wizzards.net Tue Aug 19 15:44:00 2003 From: saitaina at wizzards.net (Saitaina) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:44:00 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:TBAY - Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four References: Message-ID: <004701c36668$ba5b8da0$ab301c40@aoldsl.net> No: HPFGUIDX 77978 Two points I have to make here: Point One: The theory of Sirius telling Peter, Peter telling Lily and then Lily telling James could conceivably work. Granted I was only around for a few posts so my thoughts could be hogwash but this came to me while reading. What if Sirius told Peter the day before, ("Hey Pete, come here, I've got this AWESOME idea to get back at that weasel..."), Peter tells Lily that day, unsure what to do about it, Lily is where the hold up is though. She waits, debating, not sure if it's all a joke or if Sirius is really going through with it until she SEES Snape head for the Whomping Willow. She's standing near James, tells him, James, who knows what an idiot his friend can be takes off without a thought to go stop his best friend from becoming a murder... As for not going to Remus...well that I can't explain perfectly thought I have two thoughts: A. Peter doesn't feel comfortable confronting Remus with this. He doesn't want to hurt his friend by saying their other best buddy's going to try to use him as a weapon of revenge. It would destroy the friendship the four have. B. Peter panicked and the only person he could think of was Lily. Now I don't think Sirius thought he was plotting a murder because it just didn't occur to him of that. He's sitting there thinking he's got the perfect revenge, not realizing how stupid his plan was. I'm not saying he's got no redeeming human values, I'm just saying that fact didn't register. And it doesn't sometimes. People plan stupid pranks for great periods of time not realizing the harm both physical and emotional they can truly cause. Anyway, that's my thoughts on Point 1. Point 2: James could have been a prefect. Now hold on, stay with me here. Remus is prefect up until say...the last part of sixth year, about where this event takes place (or any other that we haven't seen yet). He does the whole "I'm not worthy" thing to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore, unable to talk Remus out of it, hands over the role to James, trouble maker yet brilliant student whom he KNOWS can do better. James is a little awed by the power vested in him. And yes, he for a bit he sees himself pulling a Slytherin and totally using it to his advantage. But maturity creeps in and viola, the James Potter we all know and love...well, maybe not voila but you get the point...I hope. Saitaina **** "Sorry Vig...just seems like I'm about to come out of a closet I didn't even know I was in." http://www.livejournal.com/users/saitaina "No, one day I'm going to look back on all this and plow face-first into a tree because I was looking the wrong bloody way. And I'll still be having a better day than I am today." From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 16:00:45 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:00:45 -0000 Subject: Back to the Bay ( was:Re: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77979 Marina began to regret losing her lovely solitude on the beach. The increasingly noisy group now included Kirstini, Derrainmer, Laura, Corinth and Arcum, as well as Prank, who couldn't decide whether to be funny and harmless or fierce and menacing and settled for running around the group, yipping and growling wildly. Laura caught Marina's eye and signalled an apology (was it legilimency? who knows?). Then, she slowly sank down on the sand, holding her aching head in her hands. The others looked down, concerned. "Are you all right, Laura?", Kirstini asked between sneezes. "Well, yes, but...all of this intrigue and deviousness people are positing is making me dizzy. I've never been a teenage boy, but I know quite a few. And even though they're smart and clever and all that, they are most certainly *not* devious. In my experience, boys would much rather go for the quick and spectacular explosion rather than the longer-term but more subtle sneak attack. Compare Hermione and her treatment of Rita to Fred and George with Umbridge, for instance. I'm just not seeing James and Sirius sitting around plotting a complicated assault on Snape. Can you imagine any 15 year old boy you know saying to his best friend, 'You know, I really fancy Lily but I think she likes Snape better than me. Can you help me figure out how to get her to change her mind?'" "Well, it didn't have to be such a big thing," Arcum argued back. "Maybe Sirius was ticked at SS for something or other and told James, who then suggested, for reasons he didn't say expressly, that they play a little trick on Severus. Sirius wouldn't question James's motives, and besides, it wasn't a big secret to Sirius how James felt about Lily." Prank threw himself down on the sand beside Laura, who absently rubbed his belly. "You're still suggesting that Sirius thought up this whole scheme and got James to go along. Sirius as a teenager doesn't show a whole lot of patience or subtlety, though. I think it's more likely that when Snape wasn't around, Sirius just didn't think about him at all. We can agree that he was, um, a bit impressed with himself, and I'd bet he spent a lot more time contemplating how cool he was and getting up to other sorts of mischief than coming up with complicated plots to torture Snape. Why bother, when the Marauders could infuriate him with remarks off the tops of their heads? YOu're such a cute puppy, aren't you?" she cooed to Prank. "Corinth", she continued, "are you really a Wormtail apologist? Does anyone ever have a good word to say about him? In the Leaky Cauldron scene in PoA, there's some discussion about how Peter never seemed to fit in with the other 3. Madame Rosmerta calls him 'that fat little boy who was always tagging around after them'. McGonagall says Peter was 'never quite in their league, talent-wise...he was always hopeless at dueling." And in the pensieve scene in OoP, James tells Peter not to be 'thick' and Sirius mocks his open admiration of James's skill with the snitch. There's absolutely no evidence of cleverness. In fact, the reason Sirius can be framed by Peter is exactly because he doesn't realized Peter has any cleverness in him. It only comes out when his back is to the wall. I think canon suggests that the others let Peter hang around because he provided an endlessly appreciative audience. He was probably handy as a gofer and the butt of some of their jokes. But I don't think they ever thought of Peter as their equal." Prank suddenly jumped up and snarled at Laura, who quickly snatched her hand away from him. "What's with that dog, anyhow?" Laura, who's thinking of buying a little vacation home on the Bay From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Tue Aug 19 16:04:20 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:04:20 -0000 Subject: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77980 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: > I think the whole veil device is a strong message re JKR's philosophy about > death -- to wit, that it's not the end of the line for the soul, only the end for the > physical body. All the stuff about James' spirit and Lily's love living on in Harry > is further evidence for this view. How the "death is final but it's not the end" > idea will manifest itself in books 6/7 is hard to predict. The suddenness of > Sirius' death is clearly deliberate, as is the lack of a body for a mourning ritual. > Unfortunately this is how it sometimes happens in the real world as well, as > we saw on 9/11 at the World Trade Center (sudden catastrophe, lack of > identifiable remains for many, lack of closure for many).(SNIP, lots of interesting stuff)> (I have some > theories about where JKR's going in the overall story arc, and feel this plot > device was necessary in order for her to be able to explore one of the main > issues I perceive in OoP -- which is how does a person try to make good/ > obedient choices when his God/guide is silent? If this is one of the themes > she's exploring, the plot device makes sense. If not, then it's really kind of > lame.) (Another snip) > The whole scenario will either make Harry irredeemably bitter (which would > make sense in real life but not in a series like this), or it will make him humble > about his destiny and his gifts in a character-building way, as further > preparation for his final battles. The whole Hogwarts Express and Kings > Cross 'solidarity" scenes in the final chapter were a hopeful touch, as I think > he's slowly starting to realize how much he needs his teammates (including > his DA peers and his OoP guides) in order to survive, both psychologically > and literally. > Some very interesting ideas in your post, and I agree, I think OotP was a "dark night of the soul" book for Harry. I think the Christian parallels are getting too strong not to notice; one thing that jumped out for me in your last paragraph was the name of the train station. Funny, but it never really registered before that the station Harry uses to go between the wizarding and the muggle worlds is "King's Cross". I think Rowling is modelling her story on the Way of the Cross, and Harry is going to suffer like Christ before winning in the end. We should make a list of all the Christ- symbols used so far. One I noticed just by chance when looking through GoF last week was during the Weighing of the Wands chapter. First of all, Harry's wand is made of holly; the Christmas carol "The Holly and the Ivy" lists all the Christian associations with holly - blood red berries, sharp thorns, green in winter, etc. Also, when Mr. Ollivander tests it out, it spouts a fountain of wine, which reminds me of Jesus turning water into wine, not to mention all the other associations with wine in the New Testament. Wanda From doliesl at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 16:15:56 2003 From: doliesl at yahoo.com (doliesl) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:15:56 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" wrote: > > > I was reading OOP last night and this page just jumped out at me. > Because Hermione is saying so forcfully that to trust DD is a given. > But, we (Harry) learns that Dumbledore makes mistakes too, and his > ego can lead him astray. (ie; that DD is the *most* powerful wiz that > was. And not telling Harry *very* important things) Things that > should have been shared *long* before. > > quote from Ch. 25 end of page 554 to 555. > > Harry is upset about Occlumency. Saying it's not a bag of laughs. > And Ron is saying... > Pg 554: > Maybe it's not Harry's fault he can't close his mind," said Ron > darkly, "What do you mean? said Hermione. Well, maybe Snape isn't > really trying to help Harry..." Harry and Hermione starred at him. > Ron looked darkly and meaningfully from one to the other. "Maybe," he > said agin in a lower voice "he's actually trying to open Harry's mind > a bit wider...make it easier for You-know-" "Shut up, Ron" said > hermione angrily. "How many times have you suspected Snape, and when > have you *ever* been right? Dumbledore trust him, he works for the > Order, that ought to be enough." "He used to be a Death Eater," said > Ron stubbornly. "And we've never seen proof that he really swapped > sides..." > "Dumbledore *trusts* him," Hermione repeated. "And if we *CAN'T > TRUST DUMBLEDORE, WE CAN'T TRUST ANYONE."* > > And this is my point. Harry can't *trust* DD anymore (well not > fully). Harry has learned a very hard lesson. The books are told through Harry's very biased-tinted glasses; turns out he's wrong about many things and people all the time. And there has been plenty of redherrings (notice how many of those were Snape- related?). So as readers, we have to make our own judgement about who says the right thing, as Harry's own judgement is very untrustworthy. However, we should be familiar that Hermione always seems to be "right", that at least there are voices of 'truth' somewhere in the text. JKR has done well in inputing JKR has said that sometimes she used Hermione and Dumbledore to speak for herself, the "author's voice of truth". Snipped from thd CoS DVD interview ================================== JKR: Absolutely right, I find that all the time in the book, if you need to tell your readers something just put it in her. There are only two characters that you can put it convincingly into their dialogue. One is Hermione, the other is Dumbledore. In both cases you accept, it's plausible that they have, well Dumbledore knows pretty much everything anyway, but that Hermione has read it somewhere. So, she's handy. ...skipped... JKR: Oh yes, very much so. Dumbledore often speaks for me. ================================== So I believe that line "if we *CAN'T TRUST DUMBLEDORE, WE CAN'T TRUST ANYONE."* is another thing the author wants to tell us. Now you can read it more than one way. I tend to read that, even if Dumbledore will disappoint reader by the end of the book that he's not infallible afterall, he is still the one to trust. And Hermione will stand by him. Plus, I think the game of "Ha! I played you! Now all you readers can't trust anyone anymore ha-ha!' is such a cheat, total cheap shot of the writer. So out of all the redherrings and Harry's biased glasses' window, there is no more ground to base on? Therefore, until there's any evidence that clearly show Snape's loyalty to Dumbldore was shaky,or that he's capable of killing students....for now, like Hermione, I trust Dumbldore. Snape is just too much of a redherring device JKR loves to fool us. D. From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 16:30:43 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 09:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030819163043.550.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 77982 --- ghinghapuss wrote: > What is the `something' we find out about Lily in > book 5? Her hating > James Potter? (Rowling herself said something would > be reveled about > her in book 5 and even more in book 7. If anyone > out there knows > where and when and what the exact quote by JKR is > could you let me > know?) > Why? Let's see: Duress? Well children's lit is > full of beautiful > princesses being forced to marry evil Kings, > although usually they > are rescued just in the nick of time by their true > love. So I suppose > it could be possible, but all the photo's Harry has > seen of his > parents they both look very happy so I don't think > so. Duress through > an arranged marriage? Possible between two Pure > Blood family, > especially as the WW still seems to exist in the > 19th century anyway, > but Lily's family are 20th century muggles, so I > don't see an > arranged married there. Ok so we are left with > necessity, which > deals with teenage pregnancy. > I like the forced marriage theme. It has always been my impression that Lily was from a wizarding family, one that had a squib a few generations back and then married muggles. They would be so proud then because they could re-enter the WW. I argue the teenage pregnacy for time issues. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is there not a five year difference between their graduation and death? Of course, it is quite possible the WW has a way of suspending the developement processes of a fetus, but I doubt they would use it. Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 16:33:03 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:33:03 -0000 Subject: The 'Other' in the HP books (was: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP) - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77983 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > There is a tendency for boys to take an interest in one another in > early teens and being in an all boys senior school (which was > quite the norm in the UK at that time), your attention was drawn > more to your own physical changes and also to other boys - > sometimes at the level of comparison. A lot of discussion has gone on about whether Harry's character could be interpreted to be gay. I don't believe that JK Rowling is depicting Harry as LITERALLY gay in the books. I also doubt whether she will ever include any overtly gay characters in the books (although it may be possible to read between the lines concerning some characters--and I also don't ever expect her to confirm whether any character is gay). However, that said, I have always believed that any such overt depictions of sexual minorities in the books would be redundant and blunt the ways in which she addresses these issues using analogy and metaphor. I believe, for instance, that in the books Squibs are METAPHORICAL gays, and this article (http://www.alternet.org/story.html? StoryID=16314 ) discusses the fact that the HP series is, in many ways, 'queer.' However, while the article does a good job of enumerating the many things pointing to the HP books depicting Harry as metaphorically gay, nothing is made of this also occurring in the wizarding world with Squibs or others. To be clearer about what is meant about Harry's metaphorical gay- ness, I believe, and the author of the above article believes, that she is using many aspects of Harry's life--such as the fact that he is 'different' in a way that is both not immediately obvious and that is not tolerable to his normality-obsessed Muggle relatives--to engage in a metaphorical discussion of how the 'other' is treated in human society. Just as wizarding world attitudes toward elves, werewolves and giants are used to insert discussions of racism into the books, and just as the dark wizard Voldemort is used to show that genocide is a bad thing (as he wants to rid the wizarding world of Muggle-borns and others who are not sufficiently bigoted against Muggle-borns, those who are blood-traitors), there are numerous things about Harry's life (and some other people's as well) that point to a 'queer' point of view. This is not just accomplished by his literal 'closeting,' followed by his emerging from the closet upon the truth of his inner nature being revealed by the Hogwarts letters--it becomes impossible at that point to continue to hide who Harry is, least of all from himself. Harry, as noted above, has a secret that makes him different from the rest of his family. Normally, minorities are part of a family structure, set off from the majority culture by ethnicity, religion, etc. Sexual minorities, however, are born into a family in which they are the 'other.' Like a Squib born into a wizarding family, Harry is encouraged to be something other than what he is, to 'change.' He is encouraged to hide his true identity. Neville Longbottom's family fears that he might be a Squib and his great uncle nearly kills him in an effort to prove otherwise. Sirius Black is born into a family of dark wizards in which HE is the 'other,' as he does not believe in purity of blood. Whether a family is Muggle, wizarding, or dark wizarding (okay, I just made up that term ) in the HP series, someone who is not considered to be 'normal' for his family is forcibly indoctrinated to be 'normal,' and if the indoctrination fails, that person is ostracized (although it's possible that if Neville HAD been a Squib he would not have been rejected). Across the board, no matter the environment, she depicts this forced indoctrination as a bad thing. However, there are refuges for the rejected 'other.' Harry finds his refuge at Hogwarts, with people like him. One has to wonder whether Stonewall High could have been another sort of refuge for Harry, given the name's association with the gay-rights movement and the fact that Dudley wouldn't have been there--although the grey uniform seems dreadfully similar to a prison-camp outfit, so this might be a commentary on segregation of minorities into what could be considered prisons. (Perhaps this is a response to people who complain about sexual minorities being 'in your face' about their orientation, rather than slinking off someplace where 'normal' people do not have to see them or think about them). Sirius finds his refuge with James Potter's family, who do not consider his 'blood-traitor' qualities to be a bad thing at all. Filch finds his refuge at Hogwarts, and yet he is depicted as being very discontented with his lot as a Squib. The Kwik-spell course Harry finds in his office is eerily reminiscent of ex-gay programs, in which people often enroll voluntarily (although sometimes young people are forcibly enrolled in such programs by their families). In this case the impetus for change is not coming from without but within. Filch is depicted as a rather tragic figure in this non- acceptance of himself as he is. He is constantly around young kids who can do more magic than he can--it's like he can look through the window of the candy store, but never go inside. Because doing magic would be 'normal' for him, and he will never be 'normal,' he is terminally unhappy (and he seems to believe solidly in the old adage 'Misery loves company'). On the other hand, we are also given depictions of Muggle-born witches and wizards who are born into very loving, supportive, accepting families. Justin Finch-Fletchley is one such case, and it is interesting that he is often depicted as gay in fanfiction. I've seen explanations of this that say the reason could be the mention of Eton (a stereotype, admittedly), among other things, but I think that in some ways there is a strong undercurrent coming from Justin's character of the gay son who is born into a family that does NOT reject him, but looks for the good in everything. He doesn't have to be LITERALLY gay for this interpretation to be valid. Hermione is also born into a loving, accepting family, and her activism seems to stem from a somewhat liberal upbringing--she is the metaphorical accepted lesbian daughter. The Evans family, for that matter, also seemed to accept Lily without question, which infuriated Petunia. She evidently regarded Lily as a prodigal, someone who was accepted without question just by dint of being a member of the family, while Petunia's 'normalcy' went unappreciated, unrecognized and unrewarded. I think that JK Rowling's clever and non-preachy way of addressing these issues allows readers to draw their own conclusions about how we treat the 'other' and how those who ARE 'other' can search for and find their places in the world. So, no, people who see gay undercurrents in the books are NOT imagining things, I believe, but I would also be very surprised if the undercurrents ever become overt references to sexual minorities. She's engaging in stealth tactics that are necessary to get these themes into a series that is read by huge numbers of children. Given the Potter-denouncers who are already incensed about the magic in the books, I doubt she wants to give them more ammunition. Let's hope they never notice the gay- friendly subtext in the books. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Tue Aug 19 17:15:05 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:15:05 -0000 Subject: Tolerance and contacting one's inner Umbridge (Was Re: Sex Pref SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "zesca" wrote: > I hope (maybe even pray) that my forthrightness has agitated just the right= > > amount. My goal is to illumine rather than to shame. This sort of discussio= > n > makes me fear for us muggles. Rather than collapse in fear, or elegantly > sidestep, occassionally I attempt the reasonably assertive posture. > > madeyemood Comment from CW: I think madeyemood has stated the case for grown-up, open discussion of any HP-related subject very clearly in this post, and do hope enlightened, liberal attitudes will prevail. Just take a look at the 'Wall of Shame' on mugglenet.com to see the depths which aggressive de-limiting of discussion can plumb. From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 17:19:38 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:19:38 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77985 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > Margaret again: > Of course I very much doubt that Neville is the key (it would just be > dirty pool a this point to say "Whoops, it was supposed to be Neville > all along") but I argue it is still Possible. Perhaps the fact that > 2 people can technically fulfill the prophecy will be Voldemort's > undoing. Maybe friendship is "the power the Dark Lord knows not". During the entire series JKR emphasizes over and over that the deciding factor in one's fate is their choices - with the notable exception of Harry, of course, whose fate appears mostly pre-ordained. By marking Harry, Voldemort chose the one who will oppose him. I think the point about having Neville mentioned was to emphasize that it was Voldemort's choice that decided who of the two boys will end up facing him. But that choice was clearly *not* random. I don't believe that Voldemort considered Neville a greater threat than he did Harry. I suspect that he went after Harry because of something related to James, that made him believe that Harry would be the one, not Neville. Salit From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 17:39:07 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:39:07 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: <20030819163043.550.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77986 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > > --- ghinghapuss wrote: > > What is the `something' we find out about Lily in > > book 5? Her hating > > James Potter? (Rowling herself said something would > > be reveled about > > her in book 5 and even more in book 7. If anyone > > out there knows > > where and when and what the exact quote by JKR is > > could you let me > > know?) > > > Why? Let's see: Duress? Well children's lit is > > full of beautiful > > princesses being forced to marry evil Kings, > > although usually they > > are rescued just in the nick of time by their true > > love. So I suppose > > it could be possible, but all the photo's Harry has > > seen of his > > parents they both look very happy so I don't think > > so. Duress through > > an arranged marriage? Possible between two Pure > > Blood family, > > especially as the WW still seems to exist in the > > 19th century anyway, > > but Lily's family are 20th century muggles, so I > > don't see an > > arranged married there. Ok so we are left with > > necessity, which > > deals with teenage pregnancy. > > > I like the forced marriage theme. It has always been > my impression that Lily was from a wizarding family, > one that had a squib a few generations back and then > married muggles. They would be so proud then because > they could re-enter the WW. > > I argue the teenage pregnacy for time issues. Correct > me if I'm wrong, but is there not a five year > difference between their graduation and death? Of > course, it is quite possible the WW has a way of > suspending the developement processes of a fetus, but > I doubt they would use it. > > Chris > > ===== > "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables Mlle Bienvenu: Ohh! heheh... another Javert fan I see :D I like your idea of Lily's family being of mostly wizards but for her immediate family... I've always had the impression that they at least knew about the wizarding world before Lily got her letter by their reaction to it. I also find the idea that their marriage might have been forced upon them to be an interesting idea as well... and I am wondering now if Dumbledore had heard the prophecy in time to actually create the conditions to fulfil it. For example: Ddore hears the prophecy and tells the Order of the Phoenix. a handful of the Order had defied Voldmort three times, Lily and James are two of them. If they wanted to get rid of LV bad enough, I can see them planning out the pregnancy so it would fall in July just to fulfil that end of the prophecy. The same could have happened with the Longbottoms. The only other Lily revelation that could have occured was that she stood up for Snape, although I can't think of any ramifications it might have on the plot. Mlle Bienvenu "I have often been severe in my life. Towards others. This is just. I have done well. Now, if I were not severe towards myself, all the justice that I have done would turn to injustice." - Javert, Les Miserables From lmbolland at earthlink.net Tue Aug 19 17:45:36 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:45:36 -0000 Subject: Tolerance and contacting one's inner Umbridge (Was Re: Sex Pref SHIP) In-Reply-To: <20030818235601.65150.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77987 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Pringle wrote: > I hate > the fact that the people who write the fanfic (mostly > women) feel compelled to couple up the HP characters, > as if the meaning of life can only be found through a > romantic relationship. Lynda, I think you've made an excellent point. And, tho I am part of a "couple", the idea that everyone MUST be mated is not only overly romantic abd unrealistic, but a little insulting! In US culture, finding a partner seems to be the major focus of society. To me, that sells people short. Isn't it possible to live a beautiful, healthy, productive life and *not* have a romantic relationship? I think marriage is wonderful, but *everyone* pairing up happily-ever-after is VERY unrealistic. If JKR intends the relationships in the books to be realistic, we won't see romantic pairings for everyone, IMHO, and *forcing* characters into a "couple", just for the sake of romance, seems to deny them an individuality. Lauri From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 17:54:19 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:54:19 -0000 Subject: How to do Legillimency [was: Snape, Legilimency and end of "Prisoner of Azkaban", MD] In-Reply-To: <006a01c36631$1cbb3f50$3af3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > > > > AAm wrote: > > <<< Just one question : why didn't Snape used his Legilimency skills > > at the end of PoA to find out the thuth about Sirius and Peter (or to > > discover what happened after that ?) >>> > Me: > It might be off page but didn't anbody realise that you neet to mutter under > aour breath? It's (like) a curse. It's in the book. Shortly before Harry > breaks into Snape's memory he can see him standing there muttering under his > breath! > It's not said that he did so in PoA and I think Fudge would have noticed it. > I don't even think it's not that legal for it looks like a curse and most of > all: It's one of LV weapons to detect untruthfulness! > It might be that DD used it when talking to Sirius but it's not quoted. > Legillimency is not something you do without any obvious sing everybody > standing beside you wouldn't see! > > Yours Finchen Mlle Bienvenu: Also I don't get the impression that Snape is particularly good at Legillimency. I don't think LV has to mutter anything under his breath, I think he just can 'read' people's minds, which is what makes it a powerful weapon for him. But Snape is an expert Occlumens, not Legillimens and therefore must use an incantation to focus his power. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 19 17:56:22 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:56:22 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77989 The only other Lily revelation that could have occured was that she > stood up for Snape, although I can't think of any ramifications it > might have on the plot. > > Mlle Bienvenu The above revelation is important, I think, b/c it shows that Lily was one of only a very few people brave enough to stand up to James and Sirius. Also, in this scene, James and Sirius "eyed her wand warily" so no matter how clever they were at curses and hexes, Lily was an equal or more powerful witch. The other revelation from this scene, discussed in a prior thread,was we found out Lily's eyes were almond-shaped. Another person pointed out to me that the only character so far with almond-shaped eyes was the sphinx in GOF. What that translates to in future books, or if that's merely a red herring--who knows. My slightly tongue-in-cheek guess was she's a "sphinxamorphagus" who can do magic with her eyes (and Harry, too). And of course, there's the often discussed theory that Snape and/or Lily had a crush on the other, so her standing up for him and Snape's reaction could be support for those theories. Jen From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 19 17:55:59 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:55:59 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's Sister, Petunia References: <1061251355.7262.87800.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004601c3667b$25f17ea0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 77990 madeyesgal: >Me, again... this brings me to another question. Both of Hermoine's >parents were muggles. How did they know about the WW? Did Hermoine >read about the WW in a book, apply for a scholarship to Hogwarts >through some sort of spell she found? Frankly, if my daughter had >received a letter from a Witchcraft and Wizardry School, I'd have >tossed it into the trash as a joke or fraud. Why did they pay >attention? Why did any of the muggle parents pay attention? I think the letter is different, depending on the parental circumstances. If the parents know about the WW, it's a different letter from the one that pure Muggles get - there would have to be more information about the school, how to do things like getting hold of the required clothes and supplies, getting on to platform 9.75, keeping in touch by owl, and other things that Muggle parents of a Hogwarts student would need to know. There may well be an extra book for the student too, just to get them au fait with what happens in the WW. Harry, of course, being of wizard parents, doesn't get the muggle letter, which explains his culture shock (as well of course as giving JKR the necessary opportunity of explaining the way the WW works!) But - and it's an important but - I also think that the letter to Muggle parents has some sort of charm attached, which constrains the parents not to question or object to the Hogwarts place, not to draw attention to the fact that their child is in a wizard school, and also protects them from nosy friends and family who might want to know what little Hermione is doing as school. It keeps "The Secret". Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From lmbolland at earthlink.net Tue Aug 19 18:06:00 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:06:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: <3F41EB5C.4010606@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > Lupin's combination of deep wisdom, selfless attitude, deep feeling, > calm exterior, and excellent methods of bringing out the best in people, > mark him out to me as Dumbledore's natural sucessor at Hogwarts. > > This assumes that DD is going to die in book 6/7, but I think we all > accept that is inevitable. I also am inclined to think a permanent cure > for his afliction will be found before then. Maybe Neville can help us here? > > What say you? > > digger Oh, Digger, this is difficult. I *am* a Lupin fan - he is easily my favorite character (followed closely by Neville) - both characters being very complex, kind, troubled, and much deeper (and stronger) than they appear. However - tho this pains me to say - I believe JKR is making a point w/Lupin. He is *supposed* to be a tragic character. JKR says in an interview (I'm seeking the exact quote) that Lupin is "He's a damaged person, literally and metaphorically. I think it's important for children to know that adults, too, have their problems, that they struggle. His being a werewolf is a metaphor for people's reactions to illness and disability." In the RAH interview in June she said he was the "nice man and wonderful teacher" but he's got this "incurable disease." I think if she makes it all "go away" by finding a miraculous cure, it defeats the purpose she created into the character. However, I do agree w/you (well, my suspicion is) that DD will die in the next book. JKR's said lupin will play a "very big part" in book 7 and I suspect he will be taking DD's place - metaphorically not necessarily literally. Dumbledore's place in leadership of the OOP, DD's place in Harry's trust, etc. We now know that the person Voldy fears most is Harry, so in literary terms, Dumbledore's purpose might have run out. If the emerging theme of the HP books is bigotry and this covers a LOT of "species" - goblins, house elves, werewolves, centaurs, giants - then perhaps we'll see a change in climate in the wizarding world at the end of book 7. Perhaps a world where these "creatures" are a productive part of society, respected, and not shunned will make "happy endings" for many of our favorite characters. In *this* scenario, a wolfsbane-controlled Lupin could hold a job at Hogwarts, tho I don't know about Headmaster. Lauri From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 19 18:32:16 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:32:16 -0000 Subject: Rising from the Ashes ( re: veil/Ddore's cowardice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77992 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: > I think the whole veil device is a strong message re JKR's philosophy about death -- to wit, that it's not the end of the line for the soul, only the end for the > physical body. All the stuff about James' spirit and Lily's love living on in Harry > is further evidence for this view. How the "death is final but it's not the end" idea will manifest itself in books 6/7 is hard to predict. > urghiggi, Chicago I agree that the veil is a poetic example of JKR's philosopy on death. It's another piece of imagery from the "Phoenix rising from the ashes" theme, such a prominent symbol throughout the series. Previous threads on the Phoenix mentioned the literal example of Lord Voldemort rising from the *dead* in GOF, and one figurative example was the OOTP rising from the death of so many original members to form again (thanks steve-bboy, that was your post). Here are some others I thought of (several just expand on urghiggi's thoughts above): 1) Lily's love is reborn in Harry out of the "curse that failed." 2) James is reborn, activated in Harry the night he produces the Prongs patronus, and DD tells him, " you think the dead we love ever truly leave us?...Your father is alive in you, Harry, and shows himself most plainly when you have need of him." 3)The partial reformation of Tom Riddle through the diary and Ginny. 4) LV seeking the Elixer of Life to transform from vapor to physical form. 4) The veil, through which people die and are transformed. 5) Fawkes swallowing the AK curse meant for Dumbledore, and returning to ashes. So, I do think Sirius will return, albeit as a memory or transformed in some way. Sigh, I'll miss him in human form though--he wasn't perfect, but his love and loyalty toward Harry were unwavering. Jen From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 18:38:26 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:38:26 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77993 tj:" And this is my point. Harry can't *trust* DD anymore (well not fully). Harry has learned a very hard lesson. But, my concern is that Harry is not going to share this lesson with R/H and I think this might lead to; in the next book Snape slipping up, and prove Ron right. I think for all of Hermione's smarts, *she* like DD are blinded by their abilities. Snape is going to try and kill Hermione. I think this for various reasons... but, the big one is that Hermione puts too much trust in DD." Why will Snape do that? For Snape to try to kill her, you must believe him to be a mole, a Death Eater. And why, if Snape is a DE, did he not kill Harry (the real target)when he had numerous opportunities? To kill Hermione, because it might destroy Harry's helper and close companion, would out Snape completely and destroy his value to Voldemort as a secret agent. If Snape's going to declare himself as a DE, it will be against Harry directly. About trust: Trust is about believing that someone won't betray you, a knowing that their loyalty is with you, not about perfection. Dumbledore never betrayed Harry, nor will he. The "zero defects" definition makes trusting anyone impossible, which means that Voldemort is right about everything. As far as other kinds of "trusting" goes, I like Reagan's saying with respect to Gorbachev: "Trust, but verify." Dumbledore, the Order, and the Trio alike would be well advised to keep their eyes and ears open with respect to Snape, Mundungus, or anybody else. So what does "trust" mean? In this context, I'd say it means, "I assume that _______ is loyal unless I see reason to believe otherwise." Mistakes don't have anything to do with that. Jim Ferer From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Tue Aug 19 18:40:12 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:40:12 -0000 Subject: Full Moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77994 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: Mandy: I think Sirius was board and simply wanted the excitement of the hunt, thrill of running around the Forbidden Forest as an animal, the thrill of the kill...Also remember the violent fight between Snuffles and Werewolf Lupin at the end of PoA? I think Sirius gets off on that. And the fact that it is an "extremely fraught time for one of his closest friends"...I don't think Sirius cares. His longing for the thrill out ways his care for his friend. Me (Marika): I find Mandy's last sentence very interesting. It's also backed up by the fact that he seemed so willing to hurt the Fat Lady and Ron in PoA to achieve his goal (catching PP). His needs outweigh the needs of others. He makes me think of a person who is driven to act the way he does to keep some inner anguish away, and when bored or left alone with his own thoughts he gets restless or depressed. (Bipolar personality maybe?) Back in high school I had a friend who learned to manipulate others in order to have a normal social life without letting anyone realize what her life back home was like. She used her charm and learned how to get what she wanted. I'm sure she never meant to hurt anyone, but of course she did. I can easily see Black being a master of this skill as well - to use his charm and charisma to manipulate others to do what he wants them to do. Just look at James in Snape's memory - when Black asks him to put the Snitch away he does, when Black says he's bored, James eagerly starts to harass Snape. Black knows how to set up a game, and when he says "play", people play. Was it a game he played - unconsciously? - when he suggested that PP become Potter's secret keeper? No, I don't really think so, but it's a fascinating thought. He just couldn't resist (what he thought to be) the small risk factor. Then everything turned out horribly wrong, and for the first time in his life he totally lost control of the situation. OK, OK. It's a bit extreme, but I enjoy the idea J Marika From gaspode2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 07:36:49 2003 From: gaspode2002 at yahoo.com (gaspode2002) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:36:49 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho. . . possible gayness Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77995 I'm a straight man who can remember being a not particularly suave 15 year old. I thought the dynamic between Harry and Cho was pretty accurate. The fact that they were both easily flustered and sort of mystified by the kiss is not evidence of any kind of "sexual confusion" other than the sexual confusion experienced by most people that age, whether they are gay or straight. That said, I don't really care if Harry is gay or not. That's not what is interesting about him. Gaspode (named for the famous Gaspode) ps: I think Snape might be gay though. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 19 18:34:14 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 18:34:14 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77996 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger > wrote: > > > Lupin's combination of deep wisdom, selfless attitude, deep > feeling, > > calm exterior, and excellent methods of bringing out the best in > people, > > mark him out to me as Dumbledore's natural sucessor at Hogwarts. > > > > This assumes that DD is going to die in book 6/7, but I think we > all > > accept that is inevitable. I also am inclined to think a permanent > cure > > for his afliction will be found before then. Maybe Neville can help > us here? > > > > What say you? > > > > digger > > I think you may be gilding the lily a bit, here. For 'deep wisdom' I would substitute 'common sense', for 'selfless attitude' I would substitute 'reasonably objective', for 'deep feeling' and 'calm exterior' I would substitute with 'emotional burnout' and 'resignation'. He looks good compared to say, Sirius or Lockhart, but that is not a sufficient reason to make him Headmaster of Hogwarts. He seems to know and accept exactly what his situation is, and even if it is not his fault, he doesn't whine about it. Even if the post were offered to him, I don't think he would accept it. Common sense would prevail. Kneasy From gaspode2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 07:45:33 2003 From: gaspode2002 at yahoo.com (gaspode2002) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 07:45:33 -0000 Subject: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "michaelkgidlow" wrote: > I can't help but think that Dumbledore's seeing socks in the Mirror > of Erised is a clue to something important. We know that to a house > elf a sock means freedom, so could it be that Dumbledore wants to be > freed from something? Any ideas? > > Michael Gidlow I have thought about that too. Especially since Harry received socks as a present from the Dursleys one year. Woolen socks. I don't know what it means, but it is interesting. Gaspode (named for the famous Gaspode) From gaspode2002 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 08:03:28 2003 From: gaspode2002 at yahoo.com (gaspode2002) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 08:03:28 -0000 Subject: My Take on the Veil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77998 I think Harry will visit the dead at some point in the series. It's standard Hero behavior. He will go and talk to Sirius and his parents (and maybe Dumbledore. . .) and he will return. Thats what i think the veil is for as far as the plot goes. Gaspode (named for the famous Gaspode) ps: I was reading OP again and i noticed that one of the OWL examiners who tested Harry also tested Dumbledore. Wizards must live a long time. From leu02ram at rdg.ac.uk Tue Aug 19 10:47:15 2003 From: leu02ram at rdg.ac.uk (leu02ram) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 10:47:15 -0000 Subject: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 77999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "michaelkgidlow" > wrote: > > I can't help but think that Dumbledore's seeing socks in the Mirror > > of Erised is a clue to something important. We know that to a house > > elf a sock means freedom, so could it be that Dumbledore wants to > be > > freed from something? Any ideas? > > > > > Michael Gidlow > > > Freedom, perhaps, from the awesome responsibilities of being the > leader of the "good" faction in the Harry Potter universe? Freedom > from the constant scrutiny from his "peers" at the MoM? > > At least, those are what came into my mind as I read that passage... > > Kevin Michael, I think this is a great idea, but socks only mean freedom to Dobby, not all house elves. He loves socks (bless him) because thats how Harry set him free from the Malfoys in CoS (some time near the end, don't have my book on me!). The fact that DD says he see's himself with lots of socks, IMO, is because he's lying to Harry about what he actually see's and this is the first thing that pops into his head. Now, is there any reason why its socks that come to mind? I can't see that its the freedom thing because the Mirror of Erised is in PS and the association with socks doesn't come until CoS, has JKR done that before? Maybe DD does want some freedom from the facts Kevin mentioned, but I don't think it has anything to do with socks. Rachel From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 19:00:45 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:00:45 -0000 Subject: How to do Legillimency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78000 Mlle Bienvenu wrote: Also I don't get the impression that Snape is particularly good at Legillimency. I don't think LV has to mutter anything under his breath, I think he just can 'read' people's minds, which is what makes it a powerful weapon for him. But Snape is an expert Occlumens, not Legillimens and therefore must use an incantation to focus his power. Maria Alena: Snape doesn't mutter anything under his breath in POA after the mud- slinging Hogsmeade scene, in GOF when he accuses Harry of stealing the boomslang skin, and in any of the other instances that are compiled on this Lexicon page: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/legilimency.html But other than that, I agree with you that no one has called Snape a good Legilimens. Besides, it's probably not too hard to read the truth in a kid's eyes, especially when he doesn't know that you're doing just that. Maria Alena From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 19:04:33 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:04:33 -0000 Subject: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78001 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > > What about Harry ? Anyone else scared of Harry ? Seriously, this boy > is : > a) powerful > b) emotionally abused > c) without any authority/father figure anymore > d) stubborn > e) proud (he thinks he can deal with almost anything on his own) > f) led exclusively by his emotions (hatred, curiosity, resentment, > love, etc... ) > g) not mindful of most of other people's feelings (not even his own > best friends, if he feels they've wronged him) > > That makes a particularly nasty and explosive mix... > > Del Mlle: Oddly, Gilderoy Lockhart was the scariest character to me. I actually had nighmares about him after seeing the movie (lol!) Memory theft is like stealing someone's identity, what do we have but our memories? I almost find it more dispicable than what LV does. Obviously now that Lockhart's had his comuppance, he is no longer very frightening, but rather pathetic and sad. But when he was stealing others accomplishments... Did anyone else find Lockhart scary? Mlle Bienvenu From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Aug 19 19:02:14 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:02:14 -0000 Subject: Great JKR quote, WAS: Re: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78003 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > > Although, I can see how this theory might work. You'll just have to > tweak the definition of 'equal' a bit. Equal to what??? Equal in > *powers* to the Dark Lord??? We seem to have assumed this. Or is it > equal in something else... Damn non-specific prophecies!!! They can > mean anything... > > ~<(Laurasia)>~ Bohcoo response: >From "Movie Magic, Life Story" magazine, Deluxe Collector's Edition, an article entitled, "Creating Harry," "Exploring Themes:" JKR: "I think it is often the case that the biggest bullies take what they know to be their own defects, as they see it, and they put them on someone else and then try and destroy the other. That's what Voldemort does." OOP, ch. 37, page 842, American edition: Dumbledore speaking to Harry: "And notice this, Harry. He chose, not the pureblood (which, according to his creed, is the only kind of wizard worth being or knowing), but the half-blood, like himself. He saw himself in you before he had ever seen you." When Voldemort marked Harry as his "equal" it was in everything loathsome he saw in himself. With all these abhorrent qualities about himself projected onto Harry, in his mind, Voldemort stands a chance of destroying them by destroying Harry. Now Neville, on the other hand, represents everything Voldemort WANTS: Pureblood status and what sounds like a large, tightly-knit, loving family. Why destroy a representation of that? I sense another of Lord Thingy's infamous, "But, alas, I declare myself mistaken, I have made a mistake. . ." speeches, don't you? Bohcoo From keltobin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 15:08:59 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:08:59 -0000 Subject: Let's pick at that prophecy a little more, shall we? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78004 "cubfanbudwoman" > wrote: > > Anybody else have an opinion about whether V. fears H. in any way??? "Richard" I think we already have some very strong evidence that Voldemort DOES > fear Harry in at least one regard: the fact that Harry is alive at > all, after Voldemort's repeated attempts upon Harry's life, threatens > Voldemort's control over his Death Eaters. Why should they fear and > unquestioningly obey him if this mere child can so successfully defy > him? I think Voldemort's fear of Harry is on a much deeper level. Voldy fears Harry because Harry represents a part of himself that he denies and despises. To me Voldemorts biggest fear is to go back to being the poor, half-blood orphan who desperately wants to stay at Hogwarts over the summer. He hated (and that which we fear we tend to hate) this aspect of himself to the point that he changed his name and denied his past as "Tom Riddle." Harry is the living embodiment of Voldemorts past... what he was -- orphan, half-blood, even his appearance is similar. I have been trying to avoid saying that Voldemort fears his "inner child" but this is part of it also (as corny as it sounds). Kelly From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Aug 19 19:12:06 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:12:06 -0000 Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78005 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leu02ram" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kevin" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "michaelkgidlow" > > wrote: > > > I can't help but think that Dumbledore's seeing socks in the > Mirror > > > of Erised is a clue to something important. We know that to a > house > > > elf a sock means freedom, so could it be that Dumbledore wants to > > be > > > freed from something? Any ideas? > > > > > > > > Michael Gidlow > > > > > > Freedom, perhaps, from the awesome responsibilities of being the > > leader of the "good" faction in the Harry Potter universe? Freedom > > from the constant scrutiny from his "peers" at the MoM? > > > > At least, those are what came into my mind as I read that passage... > > > > Kevin > > > Michael, > > I think this is a great idea, but socks only mean freedom to Dobby, > not all house elves. He loves socks (bless him) because thats how > Harry set him free from the Malfoys in CoS (some time near the end, > don't have my book on me!). > > The fact that DD says he see's himself with lots of socks, IMO, is > because he's lying to Harry about what he actually see's and this is > the first thing that pops into his head. Now, is there any reason why > its socks that come to mind? I can't see that its the freedom thing > because the Mirror of Erised is in PS and the association with socks > doesn't come until CoS, has JKR done that before? > > Maybe DD does want some freedom from the facts Kevin mentioned, but I > don't think it has anything to do with socks. > > Rachel Bohcoo replies: I'm sure a lot of you have seen this, but I thought I'd pass it along anyway since it is such a good chuckle. And, who knows? Could be something to it. You never know. . . The following quote can be found here: http://www.wizardingworld.com/hpsleuth.shtml "S-O-C-K-S This one really makes you think. It may not be what JKR had in mind, but knowing her sense of humor, you can sure see the possibility! An HP Super Sleuth informed us that there is a classic Spanish-English joke that is derived from a pun about socks. Since we are looking so hard for a "Eureka!" about socks, this just may be relevant. HP Super Sleuth Donn in San Luis Obispo explains his theory: JKR has lived in Portugal and it seems likely that she would know some (maybe a lot) of Spanish/Portuguese. If you spell "socks" in English [s-o-c-k-s], it comes out in Spanish as "?Eso si que es!" with the rough translation: "Yes, that's it!" The original joke went roughly as follows: A Spanish speaking man goes into a men's shop for some socks. The clerk only speaks English. The verbal communication just isn't working - so the clerk starts pointing to some different items. Shoes? No. Belt? No. Shirt? No. Finally the clerk points to some socks. The customer's face brightens and he says "?Eso si que es!". The clerk is a little exasperated and responds "Well, why didn't you spell it in the first place?" Cool, huh? So, what about those socks? Of course, since the phrase means 'that's it' - we still have to wonder 'WHAT's it'...?" From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 19:13:15 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:13:15 -0000 Subject: Fidelius curse/What went on in Godric's Hollow ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78006 a_reader2003 wrote: <<>> KathyK: My understanding is that Peter wanted to make sure the deaths of James and Lily got pinned on Sirius. In post #75858, I speculated on this just a little bit. Here are my hopefully relevant thoughts: "I think Pettigrew, though weak and talentless, could have and did learn some tricks from Voldemort...edit...It would have helped him blow apart the street and kill a bunch of muggles. ...edit... "Yes, yes, he must have planned at least part of what he did, because he knew enough to leave "evidence" that he was dead. He also blew up a street, killing a bunch of people while leaving Sirius alive and well so he could take the punishment for the Potters' deaths. Being in Voldemort's service taught him some things and maybe he felt a bit more powerful with such a strong and powerful leader." Back to this message: Pettigrew knew what he was doing when he accused Sirius and faked his own death. He did both these things to save his own neck. If he hadn't "died" in such a spectacular fashion, taking a bunch of muggles with him, the ministry and Dumbledore would have been more likely to listen to what Sirius had to say about switching Secret- Keepers. Especially if Pettigrew just up and disappeared after the incident. If they'd listened, not only would he have Sirius to contend with but a bunch of Aurors as well. And do we think that Sirius, were he not locked up in Azkaban, would just let Peter go quietly into the night? No. He'd track him down, just as he did, and make sure Pettigrew paid for what he did. By faking his own death, Pettigrew also got away from angry Death Eaters looking for the man who led Voldemort to his destruction. This way, none of them would have any reason to look for him. If Pettigrew just ran, he'd always be looking over his shoulder. And while he could have hid out as a rat from the DE's (assuming they didn't know of his illegal animagus status), he could never hide from a free and vengeful Sirius. Faking his death and pinning it on Sirius are completely within Pettigrew's weak and fearful character, IMO. Just some speculation, KathyK From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 19 19:15:09 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:15:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's potection (WAS: Re: small thought on Mark Evans) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78007 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ajlboston" > wrote: > > A.J: > > (Then I wondered why Harry doesn't get cited by the MoM for the > jolt > > that shocked Vernon when he was strangling Harry in OOP Chap 1, > which > > some people here thought was part of the magical protection on > Privet > > Drive...) Golly: > Harry was sent a letter in COS for magic going on in a Muggle home. > The assumption was that Harry had been performing magic. They > obviously know when magic is being performed. > > POA is another good example. They tracked Harry very quickly. Fudge > met him in London. > > This shouldn't be different - unless someone has a reason. > > I still don't understand how a Demetor could hurt him if Petunia's > home is supposed to be protecting him. > Geoff: Two thoughts here from this post and its predecessor. With reference to Mark Evans being beaten up, there is an implied suggestion in PS that Harry did get hit by Dudley; "Dudley's favourite punch-bag was Harry, but he couldn't often catch him. Harry didn't look it but he was very fast." (PS p.20) ie he got away sometimes and he obviously didn't produce a magic reaction every time. Second, although the Ministry traced a magic event at the time Dobby interfered and again when Aunt Marge went for a flight, it doesn't appear that their sensors (or whatever) register the reflex actions which Harry produced on occasions - hair re-growing, getting on the schoo roof, removing the snake area glass..... From kfc4588 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 19:16:22 2003 From: kfc4588 at yahoo.com (kfc4588) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:16:22 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78008 though I agree Lupin would make a good headmaster and I for one would love to see that, but it seems kind of obvious and kinda a given that McGonagall is due to be the new headmaster once Dumbledore *dies*.. but then perhaps provided Lupin was in Gryffindor... he could be the new head of house just some thoughts! -casey- From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 19:23:07 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:23:07 -0000 Subject: The 'Other' in the HP books (was: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP) - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78009 <<<"psychic_serpent" wrote:...I think that JK Rowling's clever and non-preachy way of addressing these issues allows readers to draw their own conclusions about how we treat the 'other' and how those who ARE 'other' can search for and find their places in the world. So, no, people who see gay undercurrents in the books are NOT imagining things, I believe, but I would also be very surprised if the undercurrents ever become overt references to sexual minorities. She's engaging in stealth tactics that are necessary to get these themes into a series that is read by huge numbers of children. Given the Potter-denouncers who are already incensed about the magic in the books, I doubt she wants to give them more ammunition. Let's hope they never notice the gay-friendly subtext in the books...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Huh. Common sense, pooh. And we had a such lovely rousing cyber- barfight going here... --JDR From keltobin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 16:25:34 2003 From: keltobin at yahoo.com (Kelly) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:25:34 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78010 > > Is there another revelation that is hidden and I've just missed? > Please help. > > Mandy I've been pondering this question myself lately. I think it could be a few things: 1. She is good with her wand. "'LEAVE HIM ALONE!' Lily shouted. She had her own wand out now. James and Sirius eyed it warily (OoTP US 648)." This would comply with statements by JKR that Lily's wand/ charm work was important. 2. Her last name was Evans. There was another Evans in the book (the 10-year old Dudley beat up). This could be a red herring. 3. We found out that along with James, she defied Voldemort 3 times. 4. We found out that she has had some contact with her sister in her later years. Petunia knows about the dementors because of something she heard from "that awful boy". We can assume, although it could be incorrect, that this is James. We can also assume that Lily probably didn't introduce James to any members of her family until they were "together" which would be post "Snape's Worst Memory." Therefore, Petunia had contact with Lily (and James) sometime between L&J's 5th year and when they were killed (~6-7 years later). I suppose indirectly that Petunia knowing more about the wizarding world than we thought tells us something about Lily in general... or hints at much deeper mysteries. 5. The only other thing I can think of is that Lily and James are sitting on either side of Wormtail in the photo that Moody shows Harry. Somewhat of a strange arrangement for husband and wife not to be next to each other. What this could mean, I'm not sure, but there were fewer "revelations" about Lily than I was expecting in the book. Kelly From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 19 17:17:09 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:17:09 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78011 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I know this has been discussed before and I'm raising it again in the > hope that 2 months of digesting OotP has shed more light on the > subject. > > What is the `something' we find out about Lily in book 5? Her hating > James Potter? (Rowling herself said something would be reveled about > her in book 5 and even more in book 7. If anyone out there knows > where and when and what the exact quote by JKR is could you let me > know?) > > The only new thing we learned about Lily that I can find was that she > hated James Potter in their 5th year in school. Not very unusual and > very understandable considering whom he was at that time. > > Mandy I'm afraid it isn't any more than that. That is all we learned. We already knew Lily's sacrifice bestowed special gifts. And the new added CONFIRMATION of the protection at 4 Privet is not really about Lily herself. Lily hated James - or at least thought he was arrogant and rude. 'Hate' might be too strong. But I have the feeling that what Rowling considers "information" is not what I would. For me information has to have meat which adds to my understanding. This only added the question - what did James to to change her mind. I suspect he saved her life. That would explain Harry's patronus. Why does it have to be important information... We all expected some great reason why LV was attacking the POtters - perhaps related to Lily or perhaps related to James. It turned out to be nothing more or less than he wanted to kill Harry - which was obvious from the earlier text. Had we asked ourselves what is the most ordinary reason LV could want to kill Harry - Harry's future power to overthrow him would have been it. The reason it was often rejected is that it seemed too simplistic at the time - or too derivative (I often heard that one ... "JKR would never do that - too dervative. She's more original.") It also told nothing more about LV's reign of terror and functions of his rising power. We're thinking too hard. Golly From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 19 17:32:49 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:32:49 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78012 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "doliesl" wrote: > ================================== > > So I believe that line "if we *CAN'T TRUST DUMBLEDORE, WE CAN'T TRUST > ANYONE."* is another thing the author wants to tell us. Now you can > read it more than one way. I tend to read that, even if Dumbledore > will disappoint reader by the end of the book that he's not > infallible afterall, he is still the one to trust. And Hermione will > stand by him. Plus, I think the game of "Ha! I played you! Now all > you readers can't trust anyone anymore ha-ha!' is such a cheat, total > cheap shot of the writer. GOLLY: Why should constant wondering about the alliances of the characters be a cheap shot. I grant you I'm not questioning DD's allegances. And it might be problematic with the HP series... But there are plenty of writers that keep you guessing about the characters and who is good and who is bad - and of course there are the grey characters Diana Wynne Jones is great at that. You can never fully trust your impressions but they aren't entirely wrong either. You grow into your understanding of the characters as you get more information. The books are like puzzles and until you have all the peices you can't really trust yourself. Because most of the characters are so fully human they have human weaknesses. Her books are full of Snapes. Some turn out to be better than one suspected in a crisis - others turn out to be more horrid than you could have imagined. It depends on how it is written. DWJ is a master at this. She never lets you settled to comfortably into your opinion - so you never feel cheated. Rowling has simply made DD too good to allow us to belive he'd be evil. But he could make a fatal mistake. He already has - he let Harry participate in the TWT. That ended in Cedric's death. If I had his job I would never have allowed the Tournament to continue. I would have sent everyone home rather than let Harry participate. It was a bad omen from the start. Golly. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 20:04:37 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:04:37 -0000 Subject: Harry and Cho. . . possible gayness In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "gaspode2002" wrote: > I'm a straight man who can remember being a not particularly suave 15 > year old. I thought the dynamic between Harry and Cho was pretty > accurate. The fact that they were both easily flustered and sort of > mystified by the kiss is not evidence of any kind of "sexual > confusion" other than the sexual confusion experienced by most people > that age, whether they are gay or straight. > ps: I think Snape might be gay though. I agree with your opinion of Harry's awkwardness during his first kiss and date with Cho. There have been times that I have been with a girl that has the ability to give me the brain farts, and I act like an idiot, unable to form coherent sentences and unable to read the subtle signs given by my date. Still happens today, and I still insist upon asking these females out. I'll never learn. The Snape statement really did spark my interest. Many times homosexual people (two spirited, to the native americans) will not let themselves be openly gay. They force themselves into a life of celibacy instead of being themselves. This is extremely hard on ones mental happiness and can facilitate some really nasty outward personality traits. Snape is really secretive about everything that has to do with himself (still in the closet?) and his persecution complex may be due to the fact that he does not feel the WW society as a whole would except his sexual preference. Many of the people that have been found guilty of hate crimes against gays are later on found out to have homosexual tendencies themselves. Kind of fits his personality doesn't it? Also, his secretive nature could also be caused by his time of being a DE, and he is still unsure if the WW society would except him back into the fold as a trustworthy, productive person. Either way it still fits his personality. Severus Snape p.s. if the remark about Snape was directed at me. I wish I was, dating would be so much easier. From huntleyl at mssm.org Tue Aug 19 20:13:04 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:13:04 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail in LURVE! WAS: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! References: Message-ID: <05eb01c3668e$4cbfc010$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 78014 Kelly said: >5. The only other thing I can think of is that Lily and James are >sitting on either side of Wormtail in the photo that Moody shows >Harry. Somewhat of a strange arrangement for husband and wife not to >be next to each other. It's because Wormtail was MADLY IN LOVE WITH JAMES POTTER! No, wait. Hear me out. >From the pensieve scene in OotP, it is pretty obvious that Peter has a creepy fangirl obsession with James. (All that *gasping* and *cheering*. Honestly.) James, however, loves Lily. Even before Lily, he obviously liked Sirius (especially Sirius) and Remus much better than Peter. Wormtail is left flitting around the edges of the group like a one-boy fan club. And when they all grow up, Wormtail is frustrated trying to wrest James's precious attention not only from the charming and charismatic Sirius, but also from James's new wife and baby, and THE CAUSE. So, Peter does what he can. He wedges himself between Lily and James at Order meetings, not caring a whit about The Cause. He only wants to be close to James. Naturally, he hates them all. Sirius, Lily, Harry, and The Cause, that is. He *loathes* and *resents* them -- and every day that passes his frustrations grows. Eventually he goes round the bend like the homicidal head of Selena's fan club. What is the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back, you ask? Well, I suspect that while Lily felt sorry for the lovelorn Peter, James eventually got fed up with Wormtail. And who wouldn't? By this point, Peter's actions were becoming wildly stalker-esque and frankly creepy. Annoying, to say the least. So James blew up at him once (and quite effectively) and promptly forgot all about it. But Wormtail didn't. He withdrew from the rest of them, becoming sullen and brooding. And when that arrogant *idiot* Sirius nominated him to become Secret Keeper, he saw his chance. His chance to get back at the *condescending* Sirius for taking James's friendship. His chance to get back at the *patronizing* Lily for taking James's love. His chance to annihilate the wretched child of that *whore*. His chance to ruin that blasted Cause that took so much of James's time and attention. But most of all, his chance to get back at James for not loving him. And so, wa-la. I give you, Betrayal. After all, if Snape could go over to the Light for love of Lily, who's to say that Wormtail didn't go over to the Dark for love of James? *looks pointedly at the LOLLIPOPS crew* Laura (who acknowledges that this theory is a bit far-fetched, but is quite fond of it anyway.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bookhound1 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 20:01:46 2003 From: bookhound1 at yahoo.com (Lynda Pringle) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:01:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: What HP Character Scares You Most? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030819200146.47972.qmail@web41502.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78015 > Obviously now that Lockhart's had his comuppance, he > is no longer very frightening, but rather pathetic and sad. But when he was stealing others accomplishments... Did anyone else find Lockhart > scary?>> Mlle Bienvenu I found Lockhart scary too because of the memory charms he cast on people. It would be dreadful to lose one's memory. Lynda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 19 16:59:51 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:59:51 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78016 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" > wrote: > > issues I perceive in OoP -- which is how does a person try to make > good/ > > obedient choices when his God/guide is silent? If this is one of > the themes > > she's exploring, the plot device makes sense. If not, then it's > really kind of > > lame.) But isn't this problematic for the series. The series has not real spiritual core. None of the kids refrence god with the latest exception of Luna's belief in life after death. And are we really meant to believe DD is the father? That to me is somewhat disturbing. He's a man; not a god. If DD is meant to symbolize Harry's spiritual guide, he's done a very poor job of it. Harry's entirely unprepared to be what he is. DD has allowed Harry to think he's been breaking rules for years instead of training Harry to follow his path. Essentially in books 1-3 Harry did what he wanted and what he felt was right. DD was there to fish his fat out of the fryer but it was Harry who put himself there without guidence. It was Hermione who laboured to save Buckbeak and eventhough DD suggested they change history (or fulfill it - I hate time paradoxes), I can't see that as overriding his general hands off approach. Lupin guides Harry's moral/emotional development as much in POA as DD did in PS - perhaps more. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: WANDA: > Also, when Mr. Ollivander tests it out, it spouts a fountain of > wine, which reminds me of Jesus turning water into wine, not to > mention all the other associations with wine in the New Testament. Goodness me... I think I we should create a list. But doesn't anyone wish we had been given more than a silly sporting hero for about 4 books if Harry's going to be a Christ figure? Shouldn't a spiritual allegory have the feeling of a spiritual core m as does CS Lewis' series even if you don't pick up the Christ allegory - laughably as a child many of my friends were wild about CS Lewis with its lions and what not. But I never felt a spiritual core in HP. JKR went so far as to make Hogwarts (and HP in general) particularly not secularly Christian instead of religiously so. There is no mentioned of a Chapel, no sunday services, no going to Church on Christmas. No mention of the religions of other kids' names - 'Goldstein' is a generally Jewish name and the Patils could very well be Hindu (or Christian or Muslim... I know) Seamus could be Catholic. If you're writing a Christ allegory, shouldn't you inform your readers at the outset with something more obvious than a wand wood? We could have known from the outset about the prophecy (and let that frame the story as it does with the New Testament) and LV's determination to destroy the one who would set his star to fall. We could have had Harry being knowledgeable beyond his years in some areas instead of being such an average kid with Quidditch and flying as his gifts. Or perhaps people could have treated him with more reverance and less like a TV star.... As a non-Christian I would not be happy with my (nonexsistant) children reading this series. I won't be giving it to them nor when I have children will it even be in my home - that would just encourage them to read it. If they picked it up by themselves I wouldn't censor it (or anything). But we'd certainly be talking about why 'love' is not a force and why marytdom is not a solution to prejudiced facist overlords. That I guess is just my minority position... Golly From neonsister at ameritech.net Tue Aug 19 15:21:30 2003 From: neonsister at ameritech.net (Tracy) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:21:30 -0000 Subject: Pajamas (was Lily's Sister, Petunia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78017 QoE wrote: "they often seem to go to bed late - then get up, get dressed, and go (very college-dorm-style. i'm surprised they don't wear pajamas to class)." me: They did wear their pajamas at the end-of-the-year feast (which went on all night) in CoS. I was just rereading that part last night. I've always loved the descriptions of the feasts at Hogwart's and wished I could attend one! Tracy *wondering if Snape wore his bunny slippers...heheheh* From urghiggi at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 16:38:06 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 16:38:06 -0000 Subject: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78018 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" < wsherratt3338 at r...> wrote: I think the > Christian parallels are getting too strong not to notice; one thing > that jumped out for me in your last paragraph was the name of the > train station. Funny, but it never really registered before that > the station Harry uses to go between the wizarding and the muggle > worlds is "King's Cross". I think Rowling is modelling her story on > the Way of the Cross, and Harry is going to suffer like Christ > before winning in the end. We should make a list of all the Christ- > symbols used so far. One I noticed just by chance when looking > through GoF last week was during the Weighing of the Wands chapter. > First of all, Harry's wand is made of holly; the Christmas > carol "The Holly and the Ivy" lists all the Christian associations > with holly - blood red berries, sharp thorns, green in winter, etc. > Also, when Mr. Ollivander tests it out, it spouts a fountain of > wine, which reminds me of Jesus turning water into wine, not to > mention all the other associations with wine in the New Testament. > > Wanda Wanda -- well spotted! Anyone interested in this angle should read John Granger's "Hidden Key to Harry Potter," which analyzes the Christian symbols in the books in great detail (griffin, phoenix, unicorn, centaur, philosopher's stone, lion, to name a few). Granger's book has numerous annoying typos and some flaws of organization, but is otherwise very persuasive in many respects. JKR's use of these symbols, many of which date in common use from the medieval period, is certainly pervasive, and it's hard for me to believe it's coincidental. (Though the books are emphatically not allegories, which fall into a different category...)Granger also has interesting ideas about the alchemical symbolism in the books, and how that ties in with mystical notions about soul-purification in various major world religions (vs. a mere metallurgical trick). I'd love to see a listserv devoted to the discussion of spiritual issues raised by the Harry Potter books, actually, and I know there are others at HPfGU who've talked along these lines in the past -- but I have no time to moderate such a list. On a general list such as HPfGU, such discussions are likely to annoy more folks than they entertain. Any takers for starting a new targeted list??? urghiggi, Chgo From issyippon at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 12:14:42 2003 From: issyippon at hotmail.com (aint_no_muggle) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 12:14:42 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Mrs Figg Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78019 My theory, or ponder - is Mrs Figg McGonagall sister? 1) At the very end of the first chapter in OoP Mrs Figg wears "Tartan carpet slippers." McGonagall is often sporting Tartan garments. 2) Mrs Figg LOVES cats! she talks to her cats. And McGonagall is an animugus (Sorry if i spelt it wrong) who tranformes into a cat. See the uncanny correlation between the two characters? 3) What *was* Mrs Figgs maiden name anyway? We don not know? We know (presume) that McGonagall isn't married. Prehaps Mrs figg was once a Miss McGonagall? 4) They are both quite old. 5) Plus - just a little point hardly worth mentioning - Why does Mrs Figg look out for Harry and not some other Squib? Is it prehaps because M.McGonagall (who is a protector of Harry) also got her Sister to help her protect him? I really hope that this hasnt been discussed before but i did have a look in the archive before posting this. Issy From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 20:18:53 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:18:53 -0000 Subject: The 'Other' in the HP books (was: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP) - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78020 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<<"psychic_serpent" wrote:...I think that JK Rowling's clever and > non-preachy way of addressing these issues allows readers to draw > their own conclusions about how we treat the 'other' and how those > who ARE 'other' can search for and find their places in the world. > So, no, people who see gay undercurrents in the books are NOT > imagining things, I believe, but I would also be very surprised if > the undercurrents ever become overt references to sexual minorities. > She's engaging in stealth tactics that are necessary to get these > themes into a series that is read by huge numbers of children. Given > the Potter-denouncers who are already incensed about the magic in the > books, I doubt she wants to give them more ammunition. Let's hope > they never notice the gay-friendly subtext in the books...>>> > >Severus here: The under currents could be read by any persecuted minority group as references to them. Anyone that has been singled out because of their genetic, religous, sexual, or racial differences can identify with Harry and his want of a place where he feels he belongs. So these books deal with that subject all the time, everyone longs to be in a society that excepts them completely as one of their own. Earlier, we were talking sexual preference, not social acceptance. Severus From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 20:44:29 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:44:29 -0000 Subject: The 'Other' in the HP books (was: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP) - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78021 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > The under currents could be read by any persecuted minority > group as references to them. Anyone that has been singled out > because of their genetic, religous, sexual, or racial differences > can identify with Harry and his want of a place where he feels he > belongs. Actually, that's not true. As I said, normally, minorities have company. They are in a family or community in which there is a shared heritage, religion, language, etc. Sexual minorities are unique in that they are born into a family where they are the ones who are different from everyone else (although there have been some documented cases of same-gender orientation seeming to 'run' in a family). The 'ordinary' minorities who are depicted as oppressed or marginalized in the HP series are elves, werewolves and giants (or part-giants). These individuals undergo an entirely different experience from Muggle-raised Harry or the 'blood-traitor' Sirius. These minorities are being marginalized by people outside their group, not by other elves, werewolves, etc. There is a difference between being rejected by one's culture and being rejected by one's own family, which would normally be a refuge from rejection from the larger culture. (Dobby is the metaphorical gay in the elf community! He still enjoys cleaning as much as the next elf, but he ENJOYS being free, and other elves are highly suspicious of him because of this difference. I do not think that it is a coincidence that she repeats this theme so many times in the books.) Harry is different from his aunt, uncle and cousin. He is magical while the rest of them are not. Filch is a Squib, which means he is a non-magical person born into a magical family. Now, wizards as a community are like a minority existing in a larger society, but most of them seem to have a superiority complex about this, not an inferiority complex, and their segregation is wholly voluntary. They do not suffer discrimination at the hands of Muggles because Muggles do not know about them (although they once did and there WAS persecution, but we are told that true witches and wizards did things like use flame-freezing charms when they were burned at the stake and were never really at risk). They are a minority, but these days they are a minority like the very wealthy, who do not actually WANT to be a part of the great unwashed masses and relish their separateness and the fact that they are virtually untouchable. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Tue Aug 19 21:00:09 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:00:09 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78022 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > tj:" And this is my point. Harry can't *trust* DD anymore (well not > fully). Harry has learned a very hard lesson. But, my concern is that > Harry is not going to share this lesson with R/H and I think this > might lead to; in the next book Snape slipping up, and prove Ron > right. I think for all of Hermione's smarts, *she* like DD are blinded > by their abilities. Snape is going to try and kill Hermione. I think > this for various reasons... but, the big one is that Hermione puts > too much trust in DD." > > Why will Snape do that? For Snape to try to kill her, you must > believe him to be a mole, a Death Eater. And why, if Snape is a DE, > did he not kill Harry (the real target)when he had numerous > opportunities? Me here: I said he was going to slip, and try to kill Hermione. Slip as in oops, that was a really stupid move. And he can't try to kill harry, LV would kill him. LV wants to Kill Harry. And if someone else did and LV can't... wouldn't that make Snape the more powerful wizard... that would bring LV calling to knock off Snape. To kill Hermione, because it might destroy Harry's > helper and close companion, would out Snape completely and destroy his > value to Voldemort as a secret agent. If Snape's going to declare > himself as a DE, it will be against Harry directly. Me here: Yes that's it. Destroy Harry's helper, close compainion, the person Harry depends on most to help him when he *needs* something. Harry would be LOST without Hermione to help him with his tasks. And Snape knows that, and shows his contempt of Hermione, because she is Harry's friend at every oportunity. > > About trust: Trust is about believing that someone won't betray you, a > knowing that their loyalty is with you, not about perfection. > Dumbledore never betrayed Harry, nor will he. The "zero defects" > definition makes trusting anyone impossible, which means that > Voldemort is right about everything. Me here: I didn't say DD betrayed Harry. I said he couldn't trust him (and I guess I should have also said) *completly*. DD had his own plans, but he unfortunely didn't *share* them with Harry. DD wanted Harry to be a little boy. He wanted Harry to be *like everyone else* But, Harry isn't like everyone else. Sad but true. So Harry can't trust DD. Harry is going to have to grow up. and at 16, that is sad as well, but as far as Potterverse is concerned, how the cookie seems to crumble. > > As far as other kinds of "trusting" goes, I like Reagan's saying with > respect to Gorbachev: "Trust, but verify." Dumbledore, the Order, and > the Trio alike would be well advised to keep their eyes and ears open > with respect to Snape, Mundungus, or anybody else. ME again: Yes yes yes.. that is why, Harry can't *trust* He must assume that perfection, childish trust in the adults that we respect and love goes out the window when we become adults. Trust is earned and DD loves Harry. So what does that mean Harry won't listen to what is said? No. But, it does mean that Harry has to wake up and know that one of his parents best friend betrayed them. And while I don't think DD will betray Harry. I do think that DD was a weak link for Harry all through OOP. I don't think that Harry is going to forgive that easily. So *complete* trust is gone. (snip) Mistakes > don't have anything to do with that. > > Jim Ferer ME again; But, don't you think that DD made a *really* big mistake in OOP? Really? I think that DD was the real reason that Siris was killed. While Harry blames himself, he was only working with a fraction of the information that he needed. And that is all because of DD. So, I can say with conviction Harry can't trust anyone even DD. Tj From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 19 21:05:20 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:05:20 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" wrote: >> "Dumbledore *trusts* him," Hermione repeated. "And if we *CAN'T > TRUST DUMBLEDORE, WE CAN'T TRUST ANYONE."* > > And this is my point. Harry can't *trust* DD anymore (well not > fully). Harry has learned a very hard lesson. But, my concern is > that Harry is not going to share this lesson with R/H and I think this > might lead to; in the next book Snape sliping up, and prove Ron right. > I think for all of Hermione's smarts, *she* like DD are blinded by > their abilities. Snape is going to try and kill Hermione. I think > this for various reasons... but, the big one is that Hermione puts > too much trust in DD. > > What do ya think? A new off the wall theory, but, I wanted to see > what others thought of it. > Thanks Tj I actually don't agree with this. I think Dumbledore CAN still be trusted. It's true that he let his love for Harry get in the way by "protecting" him from the true, full story longer than he should have. But in what other way can we say he hasn't proven trustworthy? Also, I've always felt that whenever Hermione says something this strongly, she's been proven correct. Am I way off on that? It just seemed as I re-read these books to my daughter this past year, more often than not, if Hermione said, "Don't!" or otherwise tried to instruct or warn Harry/Ron, she turned out to be right. (Of course, in my mind I attributed this to Hermione's "being" JKR...and of course JKR knows what's right & best.) Okay, that may be a load of malarky. Have at me! Snapey Susan From huntleyl at mssm.org Tue Aug 19 21:11:41 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:11:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) References: Message-ID: <060801c36696$7d6cb670$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 78024 GOLLY said: >If you're writing a Christ allegory, shouldn't you inform your >readers at the outset with something more obvious than a wand wood? Well, there is a comment made by Jo to THE OTTAWA CITIZEN that is often quoted when this topic comes up. ahem. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last year, she told a reporter the fact she is a Christian "seems to offend the religious right far worse than if I said I thought there was no God. Every time I've been asked if I believe in God, I've said 'yes', because I do. "But no one ever really has gone any more deeply into it than that and I have to say that does suit me. If I talk too freely about that, I think the intelligent reader -- whether 10 or 60 -- will be able to guess what is coming in the books," she said ------------------------------------------------------- Personally, I *don't* think Rowling is writing a strict Christian allegory (in the sense that C.S. Lewis did). But I *do* think she is drawing symbolism, themes, and possibly plot points from the Bible, esp. given this quote. As for using this information to "guess what is coming in the books," many listees have come up with 1 Corinthians 13:8. "Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away." See how *perfectly* that fits in to Dumbledore's "Power of Love" speech to Harry at the end of OotP? The prophecy *will* fail. And then all Harry or all the rest of them will have left is Love. That power which Harry possesses "in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all." Really, I think all of 1 Corinthians 13 is useful in predicting Harry's future and understanding the theme of Love in the Potterverse. Go ahead and read it. ^_~ If nothing else, it's really pretty. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1) If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2) If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3) If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. 4) Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5) It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6) Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7) It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. 8) Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9) For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10) but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11) When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12) Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13) And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. ------------------------------------------------------- Laura (who isn't really one for quoting scripture all over the place, but felt it was applicable to this thread) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Tue Aug 19 21:14:43 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:14:43 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78025 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aint_no_muggle" wrote: > > 5) Plus - just a little point hardly worth mentioning - Why does Mrs > Figg look out for Harry and not some other Squib? Is it prehaps > because M.McGonagall (who is a protector of Harry) also got her > Sister to help her protect him? > This is IMO a very interesting point. I wondered about this, too. Or better, I wondered why it was a squib at all. Mrs Figg might be loyal to Dumbledore, but she isn't much of a help, if Harry is attacked. Why not plant a witch or a wizard instead to watch over Harry (okay, some, like Mundungus are there. But it is Mrs Figg, who is there all the time). I thought if she might be Dumbledore's sister, but she calls him Dumbledore, instead of Albus. Mrs Figg being McGonnagal's sister is an idea, this might even explain why McGonnagal was in Little Winging, before Dumbledore told her, that he wanted to give Harry to the Dursleys. Hickengruendler From pegruppel at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 21:31:48 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:31:48 -0000 Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78026 Big Snip > Bohcoo replies: > > I'm sure a lot of you have seen this, but I thought I'd pass it along > anyway since it is such a good chuckle. And, who knows? Could be > something to it. You never know. . . > > > The following quote can be found here: > http://www.wizardingworld.com/hpsleuth.shtml > > > "S-O-C-K-S > > This one really makes you think. It may not be what JKR had in mind, > but knowing her sense of humor, you can sure see the possibility! An > HP Super Sleuth informed us that there is a classic Spanish-English > joke that is derived from a pun about socks. Since we are looking so > hard for a "Eureka!" about socks, this just may be relevant. > > HP Super Sleuth Donn in San Luis Obispo explains his theory: > > JKR has lived in Portugal and it seems likely that she would know > some (maybe a lot) of Spanish/Portuguese. If you spell "socks" in > English [s-o-c-k-s], it comes out in Spanish as "?Eso si que es!" > with the rough translation: "Yes, that's it!" > > The original joke went roughly as follows: A Spanish speaking man > goes into a men's shop for some socks. The clerk only speaks English. > The verbal communication just isn't working - so the clerk starts > pointing to some different items. Shoes? No. Belt? No. Shirt? No. > Finally the clerk points to some socks. The customer's face brightens > and he says "?Eso si que es!". The clerk is a little exasperated > and > responds "Well, why didn't you spell it in the first place?" > > Cool, huh? So, what about those socks? Of course, since the phrase > means 'that's it' - we still have to wonder 'WHAT's it'...?" Me: I love the joke! But maybe that's just it--the socks are a joke. Look out, it's a running gag! Really, I think the socks are just part of the humor. Socks are funny. We wonder where they go in the washing machine, hunt for matching pairs, laugh at funny-looking socks (usually on other people), tell people to pull their socks up and get to work, make remarks about smelly socks, and on and on. I don't believe that the socks keep making guest appearances except as a source of giggles. After all, Dobby said he needs to be given clothes, but who'd have thought it would be a single, icky, soggy sock that would do it? JKR is just having fun. Peg From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 21:49:22 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 14:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030819214922.78059.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78027 --- feetmadeofclay wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" > > > wrote: > > > issues I perceive in OoP -- which is how does a > person try to > make > > good/ > > > obedient choices when his God/guide is silent? > If this is one of > > the themes > > > she's exploring, the plot device makes sense. If > not, then it's > > really kind of > > > lame.) > > But isn't this problematic for the series. The > series has not real > spiritual core. None of the kids refrence god with > the latest > exception of Luna's belief in life after death. > As a non-Christian I would not be happy with my > (nonexsistant) > children reading this series. I won't be giving it > to them nor when > I have children will it even be in my home - that > would just > encourage them to read it. If they picked it up by > themselves I > wouldn't censor it (or anything). But we'd > certainly be talking > about why 'love' is not a force and why marytdom is > not a solution to > prejudiced facist overlords. > > That I guess is just my minority position... > > Golly > > > As a fellow non-christian, I can see the overtones. However, I do not see Harry as Christ or Dumbledore as God. I perceive the entire wizarding world as the christian religon as a whole. Excluding the purebreds (not burebloods in my opinion because how they breed like dogs), the wizarding world is very accepting of all those that have the talent, just as all those that want to practice the christian faith are accepted. Taken more strongly, the wizarding world actively recruits children, just like christian church does. The wizarding world has the high wizard, or the Minister (or Dumbledore, depending on perspective) just as the christian church has the pope or other (sorry, I don't know of many other church leaders outside of catholism). The wizarding world sees itself as better and more idealic than the muggle world, just as the christian religions do (or we would have never had the crusades [all 47 of them over 2000 years]). Now dealing with the purebreds, they want to keep the wizarding world inside just the purebred families. Many of the most prominant member of the church (including clergy) only want the faith to remain within faithful families. They see converts as second class and will not accept them into any positions of power within the church. Now to stretch theories, I would compare Dumbledore, Voldemort and Harry to God, Satan and Job respectfully. Will Harry return to Dumbledore in that case, like the King James Bible says, or will he curse Dumbledore to his death as Job did in the original Jewish versions of the bible from the pre-1000s? (Yes, the story was changed in the middle ages to keep people beleiving what they should. Most scholors beleive this was a reaction to the Plagues, 'History of the Bible' by Dr. Edward Christian.) I make a general disclaimer. This was not meant as an attack on the christian church. I think it is a wonderful religion if only the masses who hold power would follow what it should teach. There are good christians, I know some. In fact, I bless Father Scott in everything he does because he is the embodiment of the catholic religion. No one here was meant to be attacked, I was just making some comparisons. Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Aug 19 22:06:16 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:06:16 -0000 Subject: COS Burning Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78028 How did Professor McGonagall know it was Ginny who had been taken into the Chamber? No one saw it happen or they would have known where the entrance to the Chamber was. Obviously no head count was done, or Ron and Harry would have seemed to be missing too as they were hiding in the teacher's cloak room. This is driving me crazy. . . If this has been answered before, please clue me in. Thanks! Bohcoo From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 22:10:30 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:10:30 -0000 Subject: Canon Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78029 Do forgive me for being dense, but everyone seems to mention canon. Where is this canon? I have only been a member of the group a very short time. I would like to access this canon. So sorry for my ignorance, D From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 22:12:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:12:39 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78030 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > I know this has been discussed before and I'm raising it again in the > hope that 2 months of digesting OotP has shed more light on the > subject. > > What is the `something' we find out about Lily in book 5? Her hating > James Potter? (Rowling herself said something would be reveled about > her in book 5 and even more in book 7. If anyone out there knows > where and when and what the exact quote by JKR is could you let me > know?) > > ...edited... > > Is there another revelation that is hidden and I've just missed? > Please help. > > Mandy bboy_mn: Most people responded with a reference to 'Lily hated James', but I think the real key is that Lily defended Snape. I think a miserable persecuted isolated odd-ball like Snape, as much as he would never admit it, would take those acts of kindness in his defense to heart. There are many people that speculate that Snape loves Lily. I don't think that is quite true, but I think they are on the right track. I think Snape admires and appreciates Lily's, I beleive, more that one attempt to defend him. As evil, spitefull, and sadistic as Snape is, I think Lily planted the seeds of compassion in him, and when he found out that Voldemort was going to kill the Potters, out of his new found sense of compassion for Lily, he couldn't allow that to happen, so he turned on Voldemort. I think we will find, as many people already suspect, that Snape was the one who tried to save the Potters. Just a thought. bboy_mn From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 22:19:00 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:19:00 -0000 Subject: Lupin always being sickly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78031 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Sorry if this has already been asked. > > Lupin is always descibed as being a little worse for wear, or > unhealthy. Do you think this is a result of not feeding on humans > at every full moon? Or a result of the serious potion he has to > take? > > If it's the lack of fresh meat, I say the MOM should feed > Umbridge to him if it would help build his strength. > > Severus I do believe that it is not lack of feeding on humans. There is a great physical and mental toll taken during transformation. Re-read PoA. It wasn't a pretty sight. Also, I believe it is also probably from malnutrition. He is pretty shabby and hasn't been able to find work. That in itself would suggest that his nutrition has been sadly lacking. He puts me in mind of a homeless person. Where did he live before he turned up at Hogwarts? Where did he live after? In OotP, if I recall correctly, (my daughter is hoarding my copy and I can't get access to it) there is no mention of his shabbyness. Perhaps he has been staying with Sirius, part time and Moody or Tonks. What does anyone else think. D From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 19 22:28:21 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:28:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon References: Message-ID: <001c01c366a1$33cc4a20$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 78032 Canon is simply the information we have from the actual works (the seven books printed so far) plus additional information supplied by JKR through various means such as interviews. Hope that helps :) Dawn [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Aug 19 22:37:59 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:37:59 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78033 POA, ch. 22, page 420, American Edition: "'And the dememtors?' said Dumbledore. 'They'll be removed from the school, I trust?' 'Oh yes, they'll have to go,' said Fudge, running his fingers distractedly through his hair. 'Never dreamed they'd attempt to administer the Kiss on an innocent boy... Completely out of control... no, I'll have them packed off back to Azkaban tonight.'" How did Fudge know the dementors tried to Kiss Harry? Harry was the only one who knew about the Kiss, the others having passed out, been knocked out, or fled. He did not tell Dumbledore about the Kiss and the only other person conscious at the lakeside at any time was Snape. But: POA, ch. 21, page 387, American Edition, Fudge speaking to Snape: "'What amazes me most is the behavior of the dementors... you've really no idea what made them retreat, Snape?' 'No, Minister...by the time I had come 'round they were heading back to their positions at the entrances...'" Thanks for your input, Bohcoo From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Aug 19 22:59:00 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 22:59:00 -0000 Subject: Back to the Bay ( was:Re: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78034 > "Corinth", [Laura] continued, "are you really a Wormtail apologist? >Does > anyone ever have a good word to say about him? In the Leaky Cauldron > scene in PoA, there's some discussion about how Peter never seemed to > fit in with the other 3. Madame Rosmerta calls him 'that fat little > boy who was always tagging around after them'. McGonagall says Peter > was 'never quite in their league, talent-wise...he was always > hopeless at dueling." And in the pensieve scene in OoP, James tells > Peter not to be 'thick' and Sirius mocks his open admiration of > James's skill with the snitch. There's absolutely no evidence of > cleverness. In fact, the reason Sirius can be framed by Peter is > exactly because he doesn't realized Peter has any cleverness in him. > It only comes out when his back is to the wall. I think canon > suggests that the others let Peter hang around because he provided an > endlessly appreciative audience. He was probably handy as a gofer > and the butt of some of their jokes. But I don't think they ever > thought of Peter as their equal." "A Wormtail apologist?" Corinth looked at Laura in surprise. "No, of course not. I think he's a cowardly little weasel. But it's not what I think of him, it's what the Marauders thought of him. And I've seen nothing to indicate that they shared the same opinions of Peter as others did. From what we've seen, they put a lot of trust in him. James, Sirius, and Lupin could easily have distanced themselves from Peter simply by keeping the Animagus idea from him. What Peter didn't know couldn't hurt him; he'd still hero-worship James and Sirius during the day, and provide a little audience for their genious. Instead, they include him, even take the time and effort to help him. Peter was a true member of this group of friends. "As for Sirius' comments to Peter during the Penseive scene, well, look at how he treats Lupin. Lupin asks Sirius to help him study by testing him in Tranfiguration, and Sirius laughs and says he already knows it all so he doesn't need to look at the book. Perhaps not quite as blatant, but it's the same sort of insult Sirius flung at Peter earlier. Yet no one ever questions Sirius' friendship with Lupin. "Like I said in my earlier post, James and Sirius certainly didn't consider Peter to be anywhere near their level in intelligence, ability, etc. But that doesn't mean they thought he was all the way to the other end of the spectrum either. They thought him simply average. Peter was able to fool his best friends because they believed in his friendship, not his stupidity." -Corinth From eberte at vaeye.com Tue Aug 19 23:07:35 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:07:35 -0000 Subject: Wormtail in LURVE! WAS: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: <05eb01c3668e$4cbfc010$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78035 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Laura wrote: > It's because Wormtail was MADLY IN LOVE WITH JAMES POTTER! <> > From the pensieve scene in OotP, it is pretty obvious that Peter > has a creepy fangirl obsession with James. (All that *gasping* > and *cheering*. Honestly.) > < hating Sirius, Lily, Harry and the Cause and his taking his chance > to get back at them all when he is made the Potter's secret > keeper>> > But most of all, his chance to get back at James for not loving > him. > And so, wa-la. I give you, Betrayal. > After all, if Snape could go over to the Light for love of Lily, > who's to say that Wormtail didn't go over to the Dark for love of > James? *looks pointedly at the LOLLIPOPS crew* Me: There is certainly canon to support Wormtail's hero-worship of James. Your theory about Wormtail actually "being in love" with James is interesting, but I doubt that it is the case (or at least it will not ever be *explicitly* stated in the series.) JKR has said in interviews that although she is not writing the books for children, she realizes that the series has a large fan-base made up of children and that she would not have the characters do anything that was inappropriate to the tone of the books (she gave an example of Hermione having a teen pregnancy, I believe.) A subplot of unrequited romatic love between Wormtail and James would definitely baffle *my* seven-year-old son (I know, I know, he doesn't get to watch enough TV, I guess.) I really do not think that JKR is going to open that can of worms (ditto to all the "Harry is gay" theorists.) That said, I think that your theory about Peter idolizing James and feeling rejected by him (for whatever reason) is a valid motivation for him betraying the Potters to LV. Sirius and James certainly had no problem with ridiculing Peter ("How thick can you be!" and "Stop before WT wets himself." etc. from the pensieve scene.) Perhaps it finally got to be too much for Peter and when LV came calling, he saw an opportunity finally to have some *power* over his supercilious friends. The fact that he wedged himself in between Lily and James in the picture of the Order perhaps was meant to symbolize how much James and Lily *both* trusted him as a friend (what dummies! ) or to suggest that WT was forcing himself into a group where he didn't really belong (by skills or by allegiance.) Elle From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 23:25:17 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:25:17 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78036 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: Golly: -->snipping<-- > But I have the feeling that what Rowling considers "information" is > not what I would. For me information has to have meat which adds to > my understanding. This only added the question - what did James to > to change her mind. I suspect he saved her life. That would explain > Harry's patronus. >snipped< > Golly Shirley's potentially stupid question: Why would James saving Lily's life explain Harry's patronus? That's a connection that I have totally missed. BTW, I agree with your "information" and "meat" comments above. As much as I have loved reading all the HP books, I was also somewhat disappointed by the lack of *substantive* plot advancement in OoP. I remember reading (last week, I think) a post in which you had expressed a similar (but much more elegantly worded) opinion. At any rate, if you can explain your patronus comment above, I'd greatly appreciate it. Shirley (whose all-time favorite movie appears to also be yours, Golly - every time I see the Calvin Klein logo (CK), I think of Jimmy Stewart's character drunkenly yelling out, "C. K. Dexter Haney!" From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 19 23:28:05 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:28:05 -0000 Subject: TBAY - Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78037 Kirstini adjusts her scarves, brushes sand from her clothes, and edges a few steps away from Marina as she offers another argument in favor of her theory. > Marina's explanation, which cuts out Peter and Lily completely, > offers no potential for motivation in Peter to betray or Lily to fall > in love. Again, it doesn't have to - I'm still working on the fact > that this is the last piece of information we have about the group. > But Lily has to understand the danger that both James and Snape were > in if the Prank is the point where she begins to see James in another > light - and the fact that Remus was a werewolf wasn't ever disclosed > to the rest of the school. "I don't cut them out *completely*," Marina said quickly. "They weren't involved during the prank, but they would've come into it quickly afterwards. Peter was a part of the in-group, after all. He would've been told what happened as soon as James and Sirius got back. And there are any number of ways Lily could come into it. If she was prefect at the time, she could've been caught James or Peter or Sirius (or all three) trying to sneak back into the dorm on the night of the Prank. She could've overheard them fighting about it. She could've noticed the new tension and alienation among previously inseparable friends and confronted one of them about it. (Peter would be the obvious weakest link here, so the "Lily finds out from Peter" theory could still be made to work that way.) Given a reason to start paying attention to Remus, I bet it wouldn't take her too long to figure out that his illnesses always coincided with the full moon. Lily seeing James in a new light because of the Prank does not require Lily knowing about the Prank in advance. > And as for Sirius," Kirstini sighed sadly. > Marina bristled. > > "Sirius isn't stupid. He couldn't be plotting murder for weeks > without realising that he was plotting murder." > > "Well, he managed not to realise it in the time it took to come up > with the scheme, put it into practise, have James informed of what he > had done (somehow), and have Snape rescued. "But under my theory," Marina points out yet again, "the time in question is only a few minutes, and involves no advance planning. I don't think anyone, Sirius apologist or not, would dispute that Sirius is perfectly capable of being stupid for a few minutes at a time." >Nope, I'm sticking with > my original idea on this one. Sixteen" (she extended a friendly > tongue at Marina) "year-old Sirius was such a superior, oblivious > creature that he'd never really thought about wee Snivelley as a > human being. His life wasn't an issue, up until the point where it > became endangered. Actually, I think he comes out of my version > slightly better than he does in yours. At least in mine it can all be > attributed to *adolescent* stupidity..." Once again, Marina finds herself confused by a turn in the conversation. "I'm not sure I know what you mean here. A lot of things about the Prank are in dispute, but the fact that Sirius was an adolescent when it happened seems to me quite solidly canonical and accepted without question by all theories. Did something I say suggest to you that I'm arguing Sirius *wasn't* really sixteen at the time?" She scratches her head in puzzlement and wonders if it's time to move the conversation to George's tavern. Maybe it would all make more sense if she had a few beers first... Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 19 23:35:57 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:35:57 -0000 Subject: Lupins name. Just a silly thought. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78038 OK this is just a silly pedantic thought. 'Cause I slightly obsessed with HP right now. Do you think Remus Lupin named himself after her was bitten or his parents gave him that name from birth? If they did they were tempting fate a bit weren't they. I mean after the got bit a few years later, his mum and dad must have thought "Damn, why didn't we just name him Tom, Dick or Harry!" Mandy. Who realizes JKR named him really and it's all just fiction. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 19 23:44:24 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:44:24 -0000 Subject: Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four (no TBAY here) In-Reply-To: <004701c36668$ba5b8da0$ab301c40@aoldsl.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78039 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Saitaina" wrote: > What if Sirius told Peter the day before, ("Hey > Pete, come here, I've got this AWESOME idea to get back at that > weasel..."), Peter tells Lily that day, unsure what to do about it, > Lily is where the hold up is though. She waits, debating, not sure if > it's > all a joke or if Sirius is really going through with it until she SEES > Snape head for the Whomping Willow. She's standing near James, > tells him, James, who knows what an idiot his friend can be takes off > without a thought to go stop his best friend from becoming a murder... It's possible, but I have trouble imagining Lily waffling like that. The Lily we see in the Pensieve scene is aggressive, outspoken, and quite willing to confront people she thinks are being jerks. If Peter came to her and told her that Remus is a werewolf and Sirius was going to feed Snape to him, I think she'd do something about it immediately. Even if she did suspect it was a joke, she would at the very least confront them about making such a tasteless, stupid joke. > > As for not going to Remus...well that I can't explain perfectly > thought I have two thoughts: > > A. Peter doesn't feel comfortable confronting Remus with this. > He doesn't want to hurt his friend by saying their other best buddy's > going to try to use him as a weapon of revenge. It would destroy the > friendship the four have. I can kind of see that, I suppose. Peter does seem like the kind of guy who would not have wanted to make waves inside the group. But it seems to me that by revealing Remus' secret to an outsider, he was running a high risk of making much bigger and nastier waves. Going to Remus would've at least made sure that the conflict was contained within the Marauders. > Point 2: James could have been a prefect. Now hold on, stay with me > here. Remus is prefect up until say...the last part of sixth year, > about where this event takes place (or any other that we haven't seen > yet). He does the whole "I'm not worthy" thing to Dumbledore, and > Dumbledore, unable to talk Remus out of it, hands over the role to > James, trouble maker yet brilliant student whom he KNOWS can do > better. James is a little awed by the power vested in him. And yes, > he for a bit he sees himself pulling a Slytherin and totally using it > to his advantage. But maturity creeps in and viola, the James Potter > we all know and love...well, maybe not voila but you get the point...I > hope. Yeah, I can see that. I've already argued that Lily could've been a prefect in sixth year without having been one in fifth, so it's possible that James eventually became one too. The one thing that argues against it is the bit in OOP where Harry asks if his father was a prefect, and Sirius says no. He doesn't say, "Yeah, he was a prefect, but not until a year later." It's possible that he was trying to spare Harry's feelings, since Harry was upset at not being made prefect himself. But in that case, wouldn't Sirius have wanted to encourage him by saying, "Hey, you could still do it next year, just like your Dad?" Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rredordead at aol.com Tue Aug 19 23:45:50 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:45:50 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78040 Mandy said: Is there another revelation that is hidden and I've just missed? Please help. bboy_mn said Most people responded with a reference to 'Lily hated James', but I think the real key is that Lily defended Snape. I think a miserable persecuted isolated odd-ball like Snape, as much as he would never admit it, would take those acts of kindness in his defense to heart. There are many people that speculate that Snape loves Lily. I don't think that is quite true, but I think they are on the right track. I think Snape admires and appreciates Lily's, I beleive, more that one attempt to defend him. As evil, spitefull, and sadistic as Snape is, I think Lily planted the seeds of compassion in him, and when he found out that Voldemort was going to kill the Potters, out of his new found sense of compassion for Lily, he couldn't allow that to happen, so he turned on Voldemort. I think we will find, as many people already suspect, that Snape was the one who tried to save the Potters. Mandy again: You know I absolutely agree with you. I have thought the same thing myself about Lily defending Snape being important too. I don't know why but I always thought her response to Snape after him calling her a Mudblood was very harsh, especially coming from someone risking herself to defend him. To then snap back a nasty comment about washing his clothes and calling him `Snivellus'. Although I know nothing about her, it seem almost below her in a way and the sort of nasty, snippy answer you would get between two people who have a relationship already that has gone sour. I'm just reading too much into it I expect. Mandy From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 23:47:53 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 23:47:53 -0000 Subject: Canon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: Do forgive me for being dense, but everyone seems to mention canon. Where is this canon? I have only been a member of the group a very short time. I would like to access this canon. Maria Alena: This question is brought up from time to time on this list (I think it's the third time since I joined last December). The Crashing Boar's explanation gives you the gist of the term's meaning, I suppose, but I suggest you read a whole thread on the topic. I think you'll be surprised to find out that there are many different opinions about what to consider canon. I just searched for the thread we had in April, and it starts with post # 55452. This thread is nice since it deals with the delicate questions of JKR's interviews, the movies and the merchandise. If you don't want to read the whole thread, here are some of the more important moments: Posts 55455, 55493, 55944, 55947, 55617, 55763, 55799, 55830, 55831, 55786, 55887, 55899. Most of them are pretty short, so don't let the number of them scare you . Maria Alena From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Wed Aug 20 00:01:50 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:01:50 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] McGonagall and Mrs Figg Message-ID: <3e.33d1eb61.2c74146e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78042 Issy writes: > My theory, or ponder - is Mrs Figg McGonagall sister? > now me: Funny you should bring this up. I don't have actual canon supporting any kind of relationship between McGonagall and Figg, but something in OotP caught my eye. I posted this once before a month ago or so but I don't think I got much response (or any!), so instead of trying to find the old post, I'll just copy it below here: As you can see, your theory of Figg and McGonagall being related fits in quite nicely to my ponderings over a possible connection. I like it! :) Now...did Figg move there before or after Harry went to live with the Dursleys?? As for the cat connection though, I tend to see more of a connection between Squibs and cats and think that that's why Figg has cats (part Kneazle cats?). I need to read up more on the Squib/cat theories though before I attempt to add to that. ~RSFJenny :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 20 00:06:27 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:06:27 -0000 Subject: The 'Other' in the HP books (was: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP) - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78043 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "psychic_serpent" wrote: > Whether a family is Muggle, wizarding, or dark wizarding (okay, I > just made up that term ) in the HP series, someone who is not > considered to be 'normal' for his family is forcibly indoctrinated > to be 'normal,' and if the indoctrination fails, that person is > ostracized (although it's possible that if Neville HAD been a Squib > he would not have been rejected). Across the board, no matter the > environment, she depicts this forced indoctrination as a bad thing. Not only that, but people who do fail to brake their indoctrination are portrayed as severely messed up, and tend to come to bad ends. Regulus Black buys into his family's pureblood propaganda, falls in with the Death Eaters, finds himself in over his head, and winds up murdered. Draco, at present, appears to be headed down a scarily similar path. Winky and Kreacher are far more twisted and unhappy than Dobby. Dudley is completely unequipped to function as a human being in a world where Mummy and Daddy aren't there to take care of his every need. And Snape appears to be spending his entire life paying for his youthful failure to resist indoctrination. > On the other hand, we are also given depictions of Muggle-born > witches and wizards who are born into very loving, supportive, > accepting families. Justin Finch-Fletchley is one such case, and it > is interesting that he is often depicted as gay in fanfiction. > Hermione is also born into a loving, accepting family, and > her activism seems to stem from a somewhat liberal upbringing--she > is the metaphorical accepted lesbian daughter. The Evans family, > for that matter, also seemed to accept Lily without question, I think Lupin fits in here too, as a werewolf in a family of "normal" human wizards. And Rowling's portrayal of the physical and social consequences of lycanthropy resonates very strongly as a metaphor for AIDS, which strengthens the "queer" metaphor. Lupin doesn't appear to have been rejected by his family, even though he's been rejected by society at large. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 00:10:42 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:10:42 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78044 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" wrote: > > > I was reading OOP last night and this page just jumped out at me. > Because Hermione is saying so forcfully that to trust DD is a given. > But, we (Harry) learns that Dumbledore makes mistakes too, and his > ego can lead him astray. (ie; that DD is the *most* powerful wiz that > was. And not telling Harry *very* important things) Things that > should have been shared *long* before. > > quote from Ch. 25 end of page 554 to 555. > > Harry is upset about Occlumency. Saying it's not a bag of laughs. > And Ron is saying... > Pg 554: > Maybe it's not Harry's fault he can't close his mind," said Ron > darkly, "What do you mean? said Hermione. Well, maybe Snape isn't > really trying to help Harry..." Harry and Hermione starred at him. > Ron looked darkly and meaningfully from one to the other. "Maybe," he > said agin in a lower voice "he's actually trying to open Harry's mind > a bit wider...make it easier for You-know-" "Shut up, Ron" said > hermione angrily. "How many times have you suspected Snape, and when > have you *ever* been right? Dumbledore trust him, he works for the > Order, that ought to be enough." "He used to be a Death Eater," said > Ron stubbornly. "And we've never seen proof that he really swapped > sides..." > "Dumbledore *trusts* him," Hermione repeated. "And if we *CAN'T > TRUST DUMBLEDORE, WE CAN'T TRUST ANYONE."* > > And this is my point. Harry can't *trust* DD anymore (well not > fully). Harry has learned a very hard lesson. But, my concern is > that Harry is not going to share this lesson with R/H and I think this > might lead to; in the next book Snape sliping up, and prove Ron right. > I think for all of Hermione's smarts, *she* like DD are blinded by > their abilities. Snape is going to try and kill Hermione. I think > this for various reasons... but, the big one is that Hermione puts > too much trust in DD. > > What do ya think? A new off the wall theory, but, I wanted to see > what others thought of it. > Thanks Tj I disagree with you. Ron tends to be right when he says things off the cuff or when he's not really thinking about it ( ie. Mirror of Erised, and the infamous divination project) rarly does Ron's out and out accusations been right. Maybe we're about to have the rug pulled out from under our feet, but Harry still listens to Ron a bit more than Hermione and I think JKR is going to use Book 6 or 7 to establish a plot point where we think that Ron is finally right about Snape, Harry agrees with Ron, and that this dislike of the Potion's master is going to backfire on them in a most nasty way. ( I think Snape is in till at least book 7 due to the hints given by JKR, though maybe DD or someone that Harry is close to dies due to the boy's error). -Sophineclaire From lziner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 00:25:53 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:25:53 -0000 Subject: Lupin always being sickly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78045 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > Sorry if this has already been asked. > > > > Lupin is always descibed as being a little worse for wear, or > > unhealthy. Do you think this is a result of not feeding on humans > > at every full moon? Or a result of the serious potion he has to > > take? > > > > If it's the lack of fresh meat, I say the MOM should feed > > Umbridge to him if it would help build his strength. > > > > Severus > > I do believe that it is not lack of feeding on humans. There is a > great physical and mental toll taken during transformation. Re- read > PoA. It wasn't a pretty sight. Also, I believe it is also probably > from malnutrition. He is pretty shabby and hasn't been able to find > work. That in itself would suggest that his nutrition has been sadly > lacking. > > He puts me in mind of a homeless person. Where did he live before he > turned up at Hogwarts? Where did he live after? In OotP, if I > recall correctly, (my daughter is hoarding my copy and I can't get > access to it) there is no mention of his shabbyness. Perhaps he has > been staying with Sirius, part time and Moody or Tonks. > > What does anyone else think. > D I agree with your post in regard to Lupin's transformation causing his "peaky" look. Even at hogwarts, Harry notices he looks ill/tired -no book in front of me :) In OOtP, his robe is mentioned - I think its the Advance Guard chapter - as being shabby and darned in several places. In that book, I do think he is staying at Grimmauld place. I bet over the years, he spent a lot of time staying with the mauraders. I have a feeling that he keeps getting "chucked-out" of any flat he has because he's a werewolf. Of course, there is the possibility that he may be married. JKR has said we would find out about teachers and families. In this case, he'd be staying with Sirius out of concern/friendship. OOtP does mention that he was gone for long periods of time. I just hope she doesn't kill him :) Lziner From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Wed Aug 20 00:40:24 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 17:40:24 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1303902337.20030819174024@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78046 Tuesday, August 19, 2003, 3:10:30 PM, Donna wrote: D> Do forgive me for being dense, but everyone seems to mention canon. D> Where is this canon? I have only been a member of the group a very D> short time. I would like to access this canon. "Canon" is a general term in various literary venues. It originated as a biblical term: The "Canon" was the official holy scriptures that the Christian Priesthood back in the First Millennium declared to be "The Word of God". The other gospels -- "The Apocrypha" -- were deemed unofficial and excluded from the Bible. This scheme has carried over to literary fandoms, such as Sherlock Holmes or Harry Potter: In the analogy, the "Canon" is defined as everything that is "the word of the god" of that universe. In HP's case, the "goddess" is JKR, so her writings and statements (the books + interviews) are the "Canon". The "Apocrypha" would be everything else -- The pastiches, or as we more commonly refer to them as, "fanfiction". Of course, this all tongue-and-cheek to a certain extent; although some literary fandoms, such as the Oz community, take it much more seriously, often getting into raging arguments over what is really the "Real" Oz. (A bit ironic since L. Frank Baum, unlike JKR, never had a "grand scheme" in mind for his series, and strove only "to please a child".) -- Dave From bookhound1 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 20:18:54 2003 From: bookhound1 at yahoo.com (Lynda Pringle) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 13:18:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wormtail in LURVE! WAS: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: <05eb01c3668e$4cbfc010$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: <20030819201854.39109.qmail@web41508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78047 --- Laura Ingalls Huntley wrote: <> Crazy!! Snape's falling in love with Lily would be such a cliche - outcast loser in love with class beauty. Lynda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 20:54:33 2003 From: n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com (n_longbottom01) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 20:54:33 -0000 Subject: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" In-Reply-To: <78E7CDFC.0750F96D.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78048 KathyK writes: > > <> > Brief Chronicles writes: > I agree. I thought, with words to describe her speech like "jerkily," that Petunia was simply lying. > > Here's what I think: > > Petunia has had to keep in touch with DD, at DD's orders, and in secret so as to not upset Vernon. She hasn't liked it, but DD has told her all about Azkaban and the Dementors, so she fears him enough to follow his orders. Now Me (n_longbottom01): The first thing that occured to me when Petunia let slip that she knows what Dementors are was that she had been secretly reading the Wizard newspapers that Harry had piling up in his room. We are told that Petunia is an extremly nosey person; I can easily see Petunia being tempted to read the Daily Prophet while Vernon is at work and Harry is out roaming the neighborhood. Petunia's access to the Daily Prophet could explain how she has some knowledge of the Wizarding World. The "I heard it from that aweful boy" line could have been a cover so that Vernon didn't get upset about her reading Harry's paper. The "Remember my last" howler message would seem to indicate, though, that Petunia did, at one point have some non-Daily-Prophet contact with at some point in the past. n_longbottom01 From urghiggi at yahoo.com Tue Aug 19 21:00:35 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:00:35 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78049 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" < feetmadeofclay at y...> wrote: >> As a non-Christian I would not be happy with my (nonexsistant) > children reading this series. I won't be giving it to them nor when > I have children will it even be in my home - that would just > encourage them to read it. If they picked it up by themselves I > wouldn't censor it (or anything). But we'd certainly be talking > about why 'love' is not a force and why marytdom is not a solution to > prejudiced facist overlords. > Hi Golly -- I think you're right to feel that way if you don't want your putative kids exposed to such messages -- since the books do seem to me (and not a few others) to be subversively Christian. (To write anything overtly Christian is the kiss of death for the general lit market, and would be asking to be consigned to the ash-heap of bad religious fiction and never taken seriously by "normal" -- ie secular -- readers..... :-) Harry as Christ, I don't buy. I think you're right to be skeptical about that idea. I don't see a lot of evidence for it either. And the books are not allegorial in the true sense -- not like "Pilgrim's Progress" is allegory and like some (not all) of the Narnia passages are allegory. However, to interpret Harry as everyman on a journey of spiritual purification, facing common obstacles (both societal and internal) and the threat of human & supernatural evil, and getting guidance from a spiritual mentor (while constantly surrounded by a bunch of Christian symbols) -- I think you can make a very plausible argument for that. Thus the whole Christian fundamentalist outcry about the magical milieu of the stories is ironic, to say the least..... Re the lack of a god, church, etc in Potterworld -- there's none of that stuff in the world of LOTR, either. No god in Middle Earth at all (until of course you get into the Silmarillion and beyond). And yet the LOTR books -- taken strictly on their own terms, without the whole "first age" theological back story -- are pretty much universally acknowledged to be profoundly religious in terms of their prescriptions for right actions, and especially in their exploration of the theme of sacrificial love that benefits others. The messages in LOTR about the kinds of behaviors that are beneficial and not beneficial for the soul and for society are not explicitly religious but these messages are nevertheless completely consistent with Christian theology, and serve as reinforcements of that world view. Tolkein was a writer whose work was informed by his theology, but he wasn't writing theology; he was writing stories whose message, symbols, character development, and plotlines were consistent with his theology. I think JKR falls into this camp too, and I'm not the only one. Of course the story arc in books 6 & 7 will necessarily prove if this theory is correct or cockamamie. Ultimately it should be pretty easy to interpret Harry's final triumph, or bitter defeat, or victorious death, or victorious but painful life (a la frodo), or WHATEVER happens in terms of whether it is consistent with this kind of theology or whether it's merely another stupid case of (as JKR herself likes to say) reading into a story whatever you want to find there. :-) Thanks for your comments and your patience .... urghiggi, Chgo ADMIN note: Please be sure any replies posted to this list discuss the HP books; please post any responses relating solely to Tolkien, LOTR, or Christian-themed literature to OTChatter. Thanks! From jujupoet29 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 19 21:21:05 2003 From: jujupoet29 at hotmail.com (sienna291973) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 21:21:05 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78050 -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Golly wrote: Sienna: If you are referring here to Harry (which, I assume you are), I don't think it is accurate to say that the main emphasis of the first four books was Harry's prowess as a sporting hero. Naturally Harry's Quiddich skills are a point of focus, but far more important to the overall plot of each books is Harry's relationship with Voldemort and his destiny therein. I'm not sure whether or not he will be a `Christ' figure as such, but spirituality is far more far reaching than just the traditional Christ story. -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Golly wrote: < I never felt a spiritual core in HP. JKR went so far as to make Hogwarts (and HP in general) particularly not secularly Christian instead of religiously so. There is no mentioned of a Chapel, no sunday services, no going to Church on Christmas. No mention of the religions of other kids' names - 'Goldstein' is a generally Jewish name and the Patils could very well be Hindu (or Christian or Muslim... I know) Seamus could be Catholic.> Sienna: I disagree. I see many spiritual messages contained with this series. Spirituality is not limited to Christianity. We live in a secular and multi-faith world and yet the Christ story still holds relevance for many people ? Christian or not. -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Golly wrote: Sienna: As far as I understand the nature of an `allegory', it is a metaphor rather than a direct translation of the exact events. Does Harry's story need to exactly mirror Christ's in order to explore similar themes or even to incorporate similar imagery? I personally don't believe it does. I would not have enjoyed a story of the type you describe above. Also, don't forget that it depends on how you personally interpret the Christ story. I've read nothing that leads me to believe that Jesus as 13 was actively fulfilling his destiny nor was he treated by the people around him with any particular reverence (outside of his disciples) as an adult. He was persecuted and executed for his beliefs. The whole beauty of the story for me is that of the transmutation of God into man with all of man's temptations and weaknesses. It shows a man surrounded my temptation who managed to fulfill his destiny in the face of extreme persecution. That is God `as' man and not man as God. (I believe Nikos Kazantzakis explores this well in `The Last Temptation of Christ'). One could also argue that Harry is far from an `average' wizard who just happens to be good at flying around on a broomstick. In my opinion he shows a great deal of latent magical ability as demonstrated by his successful execution of very complex and advanced magic. When Harry focuses, he proves that he is anything but `average'. A 15 year old wizard who speaks Parceltongue and can produce a fully fledged Patronus (a Corporeal Patronus at that ;) ) at age 13 could hardly site Quiddich as his most impressive attribute. -- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Golly wrote: Sienna: I'd be interested to hear more from you on this. If the HP book contains no spiritual core and is not demonstrably a Christian allegory, why would you have an issue with your children reading the series? Not trying to be provocative, just genuinely interested. :) Sienna Who hopes she's finally gotten the hang of this posting thing From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 20 00:32:03 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:32:03 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: <060801c36696$7d6cb670$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > GOLLY said: > >If you're writing a Christ allegory, shouldn't you inform your > >readers at the outset with something more obvious than a wand wood? > Laura: > 13) And now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love. > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Laura (who isn't really one for quoting scripture all over the place, but felt it was applicable to this thread) > Yes, I am decently versed in the New Testament (for a non Christian) but that wasn't really my point. Why keep that a secret? It may not be a strict blow by blow replay but if your work is going to be series about a religious belief - namely the ethics of the New Testament and the role of a messiah - surely you should frame your story as what it is rather than hiding it for over half the series. What about those who would like to know what they are getting themselves into? I thought I was reading a nice story about evil vs. good with a standard nod to majority culture. Christanity is just so much a dominant force in Western culture that of course any good v. evil story will reflect that. This goes way beyond the traditional treatment. This is into full blown ethics. Frankly if I was a non Christian parent of an HP loving child I would be furious with JKR. It is subversive and not very respectful of minorities (or even majorities in places where it is translated). Parents who are of minority faiths already have a very difficult time battling the more obvious pressures on their children's faiths - they don't need to start worrying about the literature their children are reading too when it is simple mainstream adventure stories. Had I been a parent, I would have had no idea I should have been building up my child against Rowling's ethics from the start. For me, my faith is well solidified by children are very influenced by such ideas. Openess might have been nice on JKR's part to at least allow parents and readers the chance to choose and discuss before we were already involved. If she was basing it on a story that has already been written there was no reason to be cagey about it - after all it isn't her story. She's not exactly the first writer to base a story on the New Testament. She could have simply been honest with the press by saying that she was intentionally exploring the New Testament and that she thought the all the naysayers were being ridiculous. She could have said she shared similar goals to C S Lewis and such. But most writers don't hide their main themes for 4 books. Golly. From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 01:47:36 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:47:36 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78054 TJ:" Me here: I said he was going to slip, and try to kill Hermione. Slip as in oops, that was a really stupid move. And he can't try to kill Harry, LV would kill him. LV wants to Kill Harry. And if someone else did and LV can't... wouldn't that make Snape the more powerful wizard... that would bring LV calling to knock off Snape." Not anymore. Voldemort is so anxious now to kill Harry that he wouldn't care which of his followers kills him. His DE's in the Ministry didn't feel that restriction beyond protecting the prophecy, and Barty!Moody, who was close to Voldemort, felt free to kill Harry at the end of GoF. TJ:" Me here: I didn't say DD betrayed Harry. I said he couldn't trust him (and I guess I should have also said) *completely*." You did say completely, but because Dumbledore didn't betray Harry, Harry can still trust him. It takes more than a desire to spare a boy pain because you love him to make DD, or anyone else, untrustworthy. That's my point. Harry will know now, I believe, that Dumbledore won't withhold anything from him again. TJ:" Yes yes yes.. that is why, Harry can't *trust* He must assume that perfection, childish trust in the adults that we respect and love goes out the window when we become adults. Trust is earned and DD loves Harry. So what does that mean Harry won't listen to what is said? No. But, it does mean that Harry has to wake up and know that one of his parents best friend betrayed them. And while I don't think DD will betray Harry. I do think that DD was a weak link for Harry all through OOP. I don't think that Harry is going to forgive that easily. So *complete* trust is gone." I guess it's we have different feelings about the concept of trust. Blind, childish trust will be replaced by a more mature faith in the loyalty and goodwill of those close to Harry, who will also think for himself. My twelve year old daughter doesn't trust me the way she did when she was three, but she still trusts me. IOW, Harry will have grown up more. I think Harry will forgive Dumbledore, because I think Harry is smart enough to understand what was in Dumbledore's heart and head. Dumbledore will remain Harry's guide for a while, until he leaves Harry to carry on alone (by dying). Jim Ferer From peckham at cyberramp.net Wed Aug 20 01:51:59 2003 From: peckham at cyberramp.net (luna_loco) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:51:59 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78055 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aint_no_muggle" > wrote: > > > > > 5) Plus - just a little point hardly worth mentioning - Why does > Mrs > > Figg look out for Harry and not some other Squib? Is it prehaps > > because M.McGonagall (who is a protector of Harry) also got her > > Sister to help her protect him? > > > > This is IMO a very interesting point. I wondered about this, too. Or > better, I wondered why it was a squib at all. Mrs Figg might be loyal > to Dumbledore, but she isn't much of a help, if Harry is attacked. > Why not plant a witch or a wizard instead to watch over Harry (okay, > some, like Mundungus are there. But it is Mrs Figg, who is there all > the time). > > Hickengruendler Dumbledore's selection of a squib to be the long-term protector makes more sense than a witch or wizard. The use of magic to handle routine tasks such as preparing meals or cleaning the house appears to be firmly ingrained onto most magical persons that very few witches or wizards would be able to adapt to a muggle lifestyle. Mrs Figg, as a squib, would have a much easier time converting to the muggle way of doing things. A squib, unlike a muggle, would also be able to have some type of enchanted communications device. Mrs Figg is able to receive directions from the Order, and can presumably send information also. Allen From d.marchel at comcast.net Wed Aug 20 01:05:34 2003 From: d.marchel at comcast.net (dysisgirl) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 01:05:34 -0000 Subject: We can't trust anyone... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78056 sophineclaire is right. If you read through the books carefully, you'll notice that Ron makes up theories all the time, and they are constantly wrong. But, when Ron jokes, his joke is usually on the right track. Hermione's theories, on the other hand, are almost always right on. I don't remember Hermione joking, so I can't say anything about her jokes. What I'm trying to say, though, is that Hermione might be right in this passage. If you can't trust DD, then you can trust nobody. HP learns that he cannot fully trust DD. Therefore, he can probably trust no one. Maybe this suggests that Ron and Hermione will turn against Harry in a very important situation. -Dysis From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 02:00:49 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:00:49 -0000 Subject: Full Moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78057 > Mandy: > I think Sirius was board and simply wanted the excitement of the > hunt, thrill of running around the Forbidden Forest as an animal, the > thrill of the kill...Also remember the violent fight between Snuffles > and Werewolf Lupin at the end of PoA? I think Sirius gets off on > that. And the fact that it is an "extremely fraught time for one of > his closest friends"...I don't think Sirius cares. His longing for > the thrill out ways his care for his friend. > > "marika_thestral" wrote: > Me (Marika): > I find Mandy's last sentence very interesting. It's also backed up by > the fact that he seemed so willing to hurt the Fat Lady and Ron in > PoA to achieve his goal (catching PP). His needs outweigh the needs > of others. He makes me think of a person who is driven to act the way > he does to keep some inner anguish away, and when bored or left alone > with his own thoughts he gets restless or depressed. (Bipolar > personality maybe?) > Was it a game he played - unconsciously? - when he suggested that PP > become Potter's secret keeper? No, I don't really think so, but it's > a fascinating thought. He just couldn't resist (what he thought to > be) the small risk factor. Then everything turned out horribly wrong, > and for the first time in his life he totally lost control of the > situation. OK, OK. It's a bit extreme, but I enjoy the idea J > > Marika Laura: Geez, the guy's dead and can't defend himself...wait, he wasn't real, was he? Oh, right. Well, what I meant to say before getting carried away was that this all seems way too hard on Sirius. What evidence do we have that he was a manipulator? The only person we see him manipulating as a teenager is James, and that's on one occasion. Other textual references about the friendship suggests that they were equally likely lead the other into mischief. And as for the Fat Lady and Ron-the Fat Lady is a picture. She's not alive-she can be repaired. And as is pointed out by someone in the Shrieking Shack scene, if Sirius had wanted to hurt Ron, he easily could have. He was after Peter, and only Peter, and only because he was convinced (with good reason) that Peter was still working for LV and would put Harry in danger. The text doesn't make it clear whose idea it originally was to make Sirius the Potters' secret keeper, but it does say that DD offered to do it instead and James "insisted" (p 203, PoA)on Sirius. Sirius's idea to switch to Peter would not have reduced the risk to himself at all, but would have protected the Potters completely-if Wormtail hadn't gone over. And that apparently caught everyone by surprise- even DD. I can't believe that Sirius would ever knowingly have put James's life at risk for any reason. I'll agree that Sirius is unhappy, and has good reasons for being so, and he's thoughtless at times, especially as a kid. But never, never would he have endangered James. From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 02:07:37 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:07:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's Job In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820020737.95426.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78058 Perhaps this was mentioned before, but does anyone have any idea what Lupin is doing for the Order? ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From david_p at istop.com Wed Aug 20 02:17:12 2003 From: david_p at istop.com (David Paterson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:17:12 -0000 Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78059 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" wrote: > > Really, I think the socks are just part of the humor. Socks are > funny. We wonder where they go in the washing machine, hunt for > matching pairs, laugh at funny-looking socks (usually on other > people), tell people to pull their socks up and get to work, make > remarks about smelly socks, and on and on. I don't believe that the > socks keep making guest appearances except as a source of giggles. > > After all, Dobby said he needs to be given clothes, but who'd have > thought it would be a single, icky, soggy sock that would do it? JKR > is just having fun. > > Peg Or, look at the Lexicon for another take on Socks in Harry Potter: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/socks.html David P. From tiamik72 at aol.com Wed Aug 20 02:34:08 2003 From: tiamik72 at aol.com (katie_wible) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:34:08 -0000 Subject: Neville and Luna joining the order Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78060 Hi everyone. I was just wondering what everyone thinks will happen over the summer with Neville and Luna. (not romantically)Will they want to join the Order when they are of age, because now they know too much, with regards to Sirius Black, and that Kingsley Shacklebolt and Tonks, who are supposed to be The Ministry's Aurors, are secretly working for Dumbledore. I personally think that they will join because they went that far for Harry, but if they change thier minds after seeing the danger, will they still be forced to join? Will Dumbledore force them,kind of like how they could never let Kreacher go because he already knew too much about the Order? I don't think that if they told The Ministry (not that they would) it would do much harm, because know eveyone knows Voldy's back, but still? About the over the summer part, do you think that they will invite Luna and Neville over to the old headquarters, or the new one, or the Burrow? I can imagine that everyone will try to start recruiting people who are willing to fight with Dumbledore, and Luna and Neville already seem to want to. I'm still not sure that we can trust the entire DA, someone might pull a Marietta. Some of the DA will probably go on thier own way, like some of the gryffindor chasers might go on to play outside of hogwarts like Wood did, and I'm not to sure Cho would want to join now. I think Fred and George will help out along with thier joke shop. And for some reason Lavendar and Parvati never seemed that trustworthy to me, like I would never tell them something important to me(that would include Padma, but we don't know her that well). And I know alot of people wonder about Dean and Seamus, like how they just gossiped about Harry when he was getting sick with Mr. Weasley's vision. Colin and Dennis Creevey seem too excitable to me, and too young still. Ginny will join.(for obvious reasons) Ernie Macmillan annoys me so much, and he reminds me of Percy kind of, so I don't necessarily trust him, same with Justin, Finch-Fletchley. We know too little about Hannah Abbot and Susan Bones to really judge. I don't know if Ginny's ex and his friends will stick around. Lee jordan is funny but we still don't know much about his character. I love Zacharias Smith though. He is so annoying, yet hilarious. He says what most people are thinking but they would never dare say. He doesn't care about offending anyone (which is a little fault),but he is still hilarious just the same, and I would like him to be involved somehow. Thats it. What does everyone else think about the different members of the DA? From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 02:34:36 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:34:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820023436.16779.qmail@web20713.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78061 Of course, this is not Lupin's fault that's the tragedy of his life. But what parent would ever allow such a person to be in charge of their children? I have read in other posts the idea that Lupin carries a decease like AIDS and there are defiantly similarities in the way the public shuns him and are terrified of him and there are lessons to be learn in tolerance and compassion from Lupins but this is also very different. Lupin has a decease that turns him into an uncontrollable mass murder once every month. There is not Headship in his future. Mandy My reply Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the potion help to eliminate much of that? I personally doubt very seriously he will be the next headmaster of Hogwarts it would be wonderful but I just don't see it happening. Perhaps in the distant future. However, I do think it is a great deal similar than aides. You can contract it but their are ways to prevent an attack from happening. The shack is available for Lupin, and I'm sure McGonagall could run the school in his absence. I doubt very seriously he will attack another student as headmaster. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From shortcake2 at frontiernet.net Wed Aug 20 02:42:07 2003 From: shortcake2 at frontiernet.net (Michelle Loeffler) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:42:07 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prank and the (Second) Pensieve Four (no TBAY here) References: Message-ID: <004701c366c4$a6f67a20$5637d7aa@net> No: HPFGUIDX 78062 Marina wrote: It's still possible if she was completely unsure of what to do. Yes Lily's outspoken and assertive and that but she's grown up with these boys. She knows they do stupid things but potential murder? That's hard to wrap one's head around. She probably thought she'd wait it out a bit, keep an eye on things, not at all positive that what Peter said was happening WAS what was happening. Especially since it could be an elaborate prank on her. If you've been burned too many times you tend to stay away from the fire. Not if Peter never told about Remus being a werewolf. I know that would be the easiest way to get Lily to MOVE but that also ties in with her waffling. He just leaves that part out and explains as best he can that if Sirius pulls off this trick, Snape will be killed (perhaps using the Whomping Willow in exchange for Remus as the killer). Could Sirius still be annoyed at James AND Remus being prefects? He's not the type to like authority and I'm sure both got a little cautious once they got the "power". Sirius LOVES to just do what he wants, damned the consequences, and while James appeared to have as well, he had to grow up sometime if just for the sheer fact that Lily looked at him twice. I think that James started pulling back in the pranks and goofing off and Sirius is still annoyed about that. So he tells Harry "No," leaving out the bit about James later becoming prefect, hoping Harry won't become one and he'll still have his little buddy. Saitaina [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 02:47:40 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 19:47:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: School! Snape the bully? (was: Is Draco worse than James Was?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820024740.30149.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78063 There are a number of reasons for that--and yes it's universally true, bullies of the James/Sirius starjock variety are popular because 1. no one DARE cross them for fear of becoming their next victim and 2. because maybe just maybe they'll let me hang out with them and then maybe just maybe some of that "coolness" will rub off on me. Melpomene, who was in the "weird" category and was never invited to hang out with the cool, popular bullies, thank heavens! My reply: Neither was I...ever. But my current best friend was one of the most popular girls in my high school. She and I were never enimies like Snape and Sirius, however, we did not really associate with eachother. However, we see people everyday in our world who have attitudes that say "I hate jocks" "I hate popular people" when the truth was a lot of them never got to know eachother. Do we know if Snape knew what Sirius went through as a child? No, not at all. On that same note does Sirius know what Snape went through as a child. It is obvious to me that neither James/Sirius or Snape liked eachother. I find it very hard to believe that Snape never provoked any confrontation between them We only know of a couple of instances and I know JKR is trying to play mindgames on us. James is a good guy, Sirius is a good guy. They both did stupid things when they were young. Call it immaturity, call it popularity, call it whatever you want. What saddens me the most about the situation is that Sirius and Snape never had a chance to make amends. Children grow up. And sometimes those people that annoyed us the most when we were young can turn into some of the best friends one can have. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fc26det at aol.com Wed Aug 20 03:14:36 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 03:14:36 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luna_loco" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "aint_no_muggle" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > 5) Plus - just a little point hardly worth mentioning - Why does > > Mrs > > > Figg look out for Harry and not some other Squib? Is it prehaps > > > because M.McGonagall (who is a protector of Harry) also got her > > > Sister to help her protect him? > > > > > > > This is IMO a very interesting point. I wondered about this, too. Or > > better, I wondered why it was a squib at all. Mrs Figg might be loyal > > to Dumbledore, but she isn't much of a help, if Harry is attacked. > > Why not plant a witch or a wizard instead to watch over Harry (okay, > > some, like Mundungus are there. But it is Mrs Figg, who is there all > > the time). > > > > Hickengruendler > > Dumbledore's selection of a squib to be the long-term protector makes > more sense than a witch or wizard. The use of magic to handle routine > tasks such as preparing meals or cleaning the house appears to be > firmly ingrained onto most magical persons that very few witches or > wizards would be able to adapt to a muggle lifestyle. Mrs Figg, as a > squib, would have a much easier time converting to the muggle way of > doing things. > > A squib, unlike a muggle, would also be able to have some type of > enchanted communications device. Mrs Figg is able to receive > directions from the Order, and can presumably send information also. > > Allen Now Susan: I think that Mrs. Figg being the one to watch over Harry was very appropriate for the reasons that Allen stated. However, until the Dark Lord returned to his body, no one (even DD) felt he needed a full witch or wizard looking over him. Hence the Guard Duty of the Order with the invisibility cloaks. Susan From phluxist at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 02:09:52 2003 From: phluxist at yahoo.com (phluxist) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:09:52 -0000 Subject: Harry's first legilimant dream (legilimant?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78065 Yeah, so ligilimant, as being under the influence of legilimancy, but I digress... I've been having a lot of fun rereading the first four books under the new info imparted in book five, mostly that of mind-reading, and something interesting in the first book caught my attention. During Harry's first night at Hogwarts, he has a really interesting dream: "(Harry) was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didnt want to be in Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but it tighened painfully- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he struggled with it- then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, Snape, whose laugh became high and cold- there was a burst of green light and harry woke, sweating and skaking." Mybe this is just stream-of-consciousness dreaming, but the connections between Malfoy, Snape, and Voldemort's killing curse is very interesting. Maybe snape played a first-hand role in the deaths of Lily and James? Just a thought, Phluxist From louieneira at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 02:26:34 2003 From: louieneira at yahoo.com (louieneira) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:26:34 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78066 Could it be that Snape has a love/hate thing for Lily and has passed it on to Harry? He might have been infatuated with Lily at one point, but being unaccustomed to romance, might have said the wrong thing, or shown his jealousy of James once to often., or just realized she would never return his feelings in the way he would like. Now, when he sees Harry, he's reminded of his rejection, but through Harry's green eyes, he also remembers the love he had for Lily, but the rest of Harry, especially his hair and favored status, reminds him of his hatred for James. No wonder he has so much interest in Malfoy geting the better of Harry. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Mandy said: > Is there another revelation that is hidden and I've just missed? > Please help. > > > bboy_mn said > Most people responded with a reference to 'Lily hated James', but I > think the real key is that Lily defended Snape. I think a miserable > persecuted isolated odd-ball like Snape, as much as he would never > admit it, would take those acts of kindness in his defense to heart. > There are many people that speculate that Snape loves Lily. I don't > think that is quite true, but I think they are on the right track. I > think Snape admires and appreciates Lily's, I beleive, more that one > attempt to defend him. > > As evil, spitefull, and sadistic as Snape is, I think Lily planted the > seeds of compassion in him, and when he found out that Voldemort was > going to kill the Potters, out of his new found sense of compassion > for Lily, he couldn't allow that to happen, so he turned on Voldemort. > > I think we will find, as many people already suspect, that Snape was > the one who tried to save the Potters. > > > Mandy again: > You know I absolutely agree with you. I have thought the same thing > myself about Lily defending Snape being important too. > > I don't know why but I always thought her response to Snape after him > calling her a Mudblood was very harsh, especially coming from someone > risking herself to defend him. To then snap back a nasty comment > about washing his clothes and calling him `Snivellus'. Although I > know nothing about her, it seem almost below her in a way and the > sort of nasty, snippy answer you would get between two people who > have a relationship already that has gone sour. > I'm just reading too much into it I expect. > > Mandy From happydenim at netscape.net Wed Aug 20 02:39:43 2003 From: happydenim at netscape.net (denimtoday) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:39:43 -0000 Subject: Writing insturments - why not? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78067 Corinth wrote: << As far as I remember, he's never complained about running out of ink, messing up a paper with blots of ink, etc. This makes me think that the quills used in the wizarding world are magically enhanced <> Hi Corinth, I like your theory and wish it were so. Unfortunately, though, when Harry was using a quill to write in Tom Riddle's diary, the very first time that he set quill to paper a large drop of ink blotted the page. Of course, it disappeared and that set off the chain of questions and answers between Harry and Tom. Still, we could always forget about that couldn't we? I really really like your idea. I desparately want quills to be the writing instrument of choice for the wizarding world. To me seeing a wizard or witch using anything modern like a ballpoint pen would be like seeing a vampire using a medical syringe to remove the blood for feeding instead of the notorious bite. Denim From happydenim at netscape.net Wed Aug 20 02:55:16 2003 From: happydenim at netscape.net (denimtoday) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 02:55:16 -0000 Subject: Lupin always being sickly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78068 Lziner wrote: > I just hope she doesn't kill him :)> Not to worry, Lziner. When she was interviewed at Albert Hall in London she revealed that he's her most favorite character (or if not character her most favorite professor, I can't remember which now). Denim From navarro198 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 03:38:20 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 03:38:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78069 Kneasy wrote: > I think you may be gilding the lily a bit, here. > > For 'deep wisdom' I would substitute 'common sense', > for 'selfless attitude' I would substitute 'reasonably objective', > for 'deep feeling' and 'calm exterior' I would substitute with 'emotional > burnout' and 'resignation'. I agree with your first two substitutions, but disagree with the third, at least about the 'calm exterior.' Lupin has always remained calm, even when he met Sirius in the Shrieking Shack, and in Snape's pensieve. He may be 'resigned' to his situation, but I don't think he is 'burned out'. That said, even if someone discovers a miraculous cure for being a werewolf, I don't think Lupin would make a good headmaster. He is too gentle. He is a good mentor one-on-one, but IMHO I don't think he is forceful enough to take on the entire student body. They would walk all over him. Ravenclaw Bookworm From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 20 03:40:02 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 03:40:02 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Removing Prank to the George (are dogs allowed?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78070 "I'll get them in, George" said Kirstini, wearily, reaching for her wallet. "I seem to have prolonged this entire thing mercilessly, which is why these poor people (whose numbers keep increasing) are suffering exposure and in need of a drink. Or eight." George, wisely, didn't ask. Kirstini turned her slightly throbbing head back to Marina. "I'm not sure I know what you mean here." Marina was saying. "A lot of things about the Prank are in dispute, but the fact that Sirius was an adolescent when it happened seems to me quite solidly canonical and accepted without question by all theories. Did something I say suggest to you that I'm arguing Sirius *wasn't* really sixteen at the time?" "Umm, no. I *think* I was trying to point out that my theory, or the bit of my theory where Sirius is oblivious to Snape's life as a thing that has any worth is an adolescent phase that is overcome. When you said that Sirius wasn't stupid, I tried to be clever and twist it round to prove that Sirius must have had some realisation of what he was doing at some point, because otherwise you could attribute his behaviour to some sort of character flaw rather than adolescent phase. I *think* that's what I was doing. And I think the confusion arose because we have a completely different idea of the length of time between Sirius tipping the wink to Snape and James pulling Snape out." "Kirstini, I think you're making things a bit complicated for yourself. And me." Marina added, rubbing her head. Kirstini handed her a glass from the tray she had been holding, stupidly, for the last five minutes, and was astonished to see the contents vanish in record time. Marina placed the glass back, and began again. "I favour a simple reading of the Prank. No middle man. Sirius, spurred on by some event we don't yet know about, acts alone on a nasty *adolescent* whim, and totters off to brag to James, his best mate. James, developing a conscience, runs in and undoes the damage. Lovely and clean." Kirstini had been handing out drinks round the table, and gestured to Marina to listen. Laura and Corinth were engaged in a discussion of Wormtail's moral character and whether or not the other Marauders had underestimated his powers. Derranimer was telling George about James behaving as an archetypal, chivalrous Gryffindor, and asking whether or not he found it creepy. Arcum was playing darts, a piece of Lily 'n' James fan art tacked onto the board. He or she (it was still impossible to tell) was muttering under her or his breath "That darn, sneaky, conniving so and so." Saitaina was drawing a diagram on a beer mat to prove that Lily could still have been the one to sound the alert, even if she didn't know there was any real danger involved. Kirstini took a sip from the lovely single malt which George had taken to keeping behind the bar for her, and poured a bit from the bottle into Marina's glass. She sighed. "The thing is, that no-one's really satisfied with that explanation, which is basically the standard one we gleaned from the books. It's like you said - we don't yet know about the thing that spurred Sirius on. Why not? Why has this knowledge been held back if the explanation is only what we knew anyway? We also don't know enough about why Peter turned traitor, and now we have a new, unsolved mystery - why on earth did Lily capitulate and go out with James. And because there's all these gaps in our knowledge, and because they all stem from more or less the same time, it's tempting to put them all together. So although your theory is lovely and clean and doesn't give me a headache, I *want* Budding Moralist!Peter, and Emotional Repercussions in Group Dynamics, and Isolated!Sirius turning to hatred as a hobby (anyway, brooding is sexy. He looks good brooding), even though it all makes my head spin. I'm going to be so disappointed if it does turn out like you predict - just another damp- squibby Neville-doesn't-even-need-a-memory-charm sort of scenario." Then, with a movement so swift it might have been choreographed, Marina and Kirstini ducked under the table to avoid the glass that Corinth had just sent flying. "Nobody calls *me* a Wormtail Apologist!" she screamed. Kirstini pulled a face. "Probably a bad idea to get everyone quadruples, then." From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 04:09:32 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:09:32 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78071 I don't know about you guys, but when I was reading OP, I kept thinking that the reason Umbridge hates half-breeds so much is because she *is* one. Canon to back it up? She looks very odd (toad-like, short, stubby fingers, just weird-looking in general), then there's the extreme hate of half-breeds (Voldemort hates muggles and mudbloods...why? 'cause he *is* one). If she is a half- breed, then what is she half of? Also, and excuse me if you think it's crude (we're all grown-ups here, right?), when Umbridge gets back from the Centaurs, I kept thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't think so, yet this still occurred to me) that she had been, um, sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped. It would be the ultimate revenge, esp. if she were pregnant and had a half breed child. I know this sounds crazy, but when I finished reading the scene, I told my husband it was almost like Rowling was making it to where an adult might just take it that way, but of course it's not spelled out because children read it. Anyway, I thought I'd throw that out there. There's no canon that supports it except that she came back mentally hurt, yet there weren't any huge physical injuries...why else would she be so scarred? And by the way, I don't feel the centaurs are creatures who are likely to do something like that or anything... James Redmont, who is waiting for a tirade, but hopes someone else thought this so she can sleep easier From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 04:16:08 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:16:08 -0000 Subject: McGonagall and Mrs Figg In-Reply-To: <3e.33d1eb61.2c74146e@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78072 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > Issy writes: > dress??? When Harry was at OotP headquarters he saw her at the door dressed in > one, but no further mention was made of it, nor any muggle-related plotline > involving LV. ~RSFJenny :) Me: Maybe she dressed in muggle clothing because she was in muggle London, going to Grimmauld Place? James Redmont From shaman at mac.com Wed Aug 20 04:19:01 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 00:19:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon In-Reply-To: <001c01c366a1$33cc4a20$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: <6D1A2ED8-D2C5-11D7-BB08-000393C324F6@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78073 On Tuesday, August 19, 2003, at 06:28 PM, The Crashing Boar wrote: Dawn: > Canon is simply the information we have from the actual works > (the seven books printed so far) plus additional information > supplied by JKR through various means such as interviews. Me (Charlie): Dictionary.com has this: >> 3. The collection of books received as genuine Holy Scriptures, >> called the sacred canon , or general rule of moral and religious >> duty, given by inspiration; the Bible; also, any one of the canonical >> Scriptures. Removing the religious overlay, we arrive at something like this: "a collection of books accepted as authoritative, or any text included in that collection". Which tells me that HP canon is the published body of work by JKR about HP & the Wizarding World - specifically, the 5 "HP &" books & the two 'school books', plus such as she may add in the future. You include public utterances of JKR in canon; I do not. Any interview with JKR is not her authoritative work, but the work of the interviewer - and JKR's wicked characterisation of Rita Skeeter shows directly, I think, how she feels about that line of work. The books, on the other hand, have been slaved over to ensure that they say *exactly* what she wants them to say. Even barring interviews, it's hard to imagine that any off-the-cuff public remark can have the weight, the certainty the immutability of what she's already committed to print. Until it's committed to print, she can change her mind about anything she says, if she wants to bad enough. Print - published works - are authoritative. Likewise, I consider fanfic to be a different conversation about a different topic. -- Charlie From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 04:34:59 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:34:59 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: >And yet the LOTR books -- taken strictly on > their own terms, without the whole "first age" theological back story -- are > pretty much universally acknowledged to be profoundly religious in terms of > their prescriptions for right actions, and especially in their exploration of the > theme of sacrificial love that benefits others. > urghiggi, Chgo Me: Harry Potter's actions do seem to be based on a "force", ie, love, and many people relate this to Christ. LOTR is likened to the life of Christ, as well, because it's about making the right decisions, etc. People (especially westerners, those from the occident) must remember that the life of Christ is not the quintessential deity. Christ did what was right, but he'd surely not the only one. Christianity is a youthful religion. Many religions have come and gone, and many were/have been around longer than Christianity. I don't think we should say it's "Christian", we should look deeper. The fact is that most religions have the same core beliefs (doing right) and that *this* is something fundamental in the human psyche. The fact that this says something to us (HP is a huge deal, right?) is important...there's something about Harry that appeals to us. And part of this is spiritual, or moral, or however you choose to put it into terms. James Redmont From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 04:41:43 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:41:43 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Figg_Girl_Can=92t_Fly_(filk)?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78075 Figg Girl Can't Fly (OOP, Chap. 2) To the tune of Big Girls Don't Cry by The Four Seasons Hear the original at http://www.buffnet.net/~ambrosia/home.htm Dedicated to CW, who wrote in #77430 "Personally, I am quite prepared to wade through, tolerate/ignore the various mistakes, repeated questions, utterly boring FILKS and interminable SHIP discussions, in the interests of turning up some novel idea from a fresh mind." That's exactly the kind of tolerance and acceptance that brings the Potterfanverse together! (although "filks" needn't be capitalized: don't feel compelled by our collective charisma!) THE SCENE: Wisteria Walk. Immediately after the dementor attack, HARRY is accosted by ARABELLA FIGG, who makes a surprising declaration HARRY (spoken): You're ? you're a witch? FIGG (spoken): I'm a Squib, as Mundungus knows full well .. FIGG: (music) Figg girl can't fly Figg girl can't fly HARRY & (FIGG) Fi-igg girl, you came by-yi-yi (I came by) Fi-igg girl, tell me why-yi-yi (I am your ally) Figg girl (where's that Dungus guy?) Dungus guy? (I will that man fry) That man will die! (MUNDUNGUS FLETCHER Apparates onto the scene) (FIGG) & MUNDUNGUS (Dungy boy) I stood guard but had to sneak off (Dungy boy) Cauldrons 90% off (Dungy boy) Now she swings, and gives this cry: FIGG & MUNDUNGUS "Figg girl fists fly" FIGG & (MUNDUNGUS) Fi-igg girl fists fly-yi-yi (please don't fly) Fi-igg girl fists fly-yi-yi (she will crucify) Perhaps (I was du-uh-umb) you were dumb Dumb sap (I'll tell Dumb) yes, go tell Dumb FIGG & (MUNDUNGUS) (Figgy girl) Shame on you, Dementors came (Figgy girl) Poor Harry they'll blame (Figgy girl) Dumbledore's not satisfied FIGG, MUNDUNGUS & HARRY Be horrified! MUNDUNGUS & HARRY & (FIGG) Fi-igg girl she's awry-yi-yi (I'm awry) Fi-igg girl's still spry (I am not mollified) Figg girl's still spry Figg girl's still spry Figg girl's still spry Figg girl's still spry...... (MUNDUNGUS Apparates to Dumbledore while FIGG leads HARRY back to Privet Drive with Dudley in tow) - CMC (Yes, I'm still working on A!Kedavra) HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 05:06:02 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 05:06:02 -0000 Subject: Full Moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: He was after Peter, and only Peter, and only because he was convinced > (with good reason) that Peter was still working for LV and would put > Harry in danger. . Me: Um, wait a minute, I don't think he was trying to protect Harry...I think he wanted revenge. Small point, but a point nevertheless. James Redmont From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Tue Aug 19 19:43:28 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2003 15:43:28 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's death (was: Lupin as next Headmaster) References: <3F41EB5C.4010606@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3F427DE0.1050708@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78077 digger wrote: > > This assumes that DD is going to die in book 6/7, but I think we all > accept that is inevitable. I don't think it inevitable at all. For one thing, this is fiction, so I expect the Good Guys to win, but if Dumbledore dies, they won't. No one, with the possible exception of Arthur, is capable of leading the fight against Voldemort. If Dumbledore dies, Voldemort wins (unless he dies just before the Final Battle). From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 05:52:47 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 05:52:47 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Figg the Guardian (was: Re: McGonagall and Mrs Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78078 Hickengruendler: >>>This is IMO a very interesting point. I wondered about this, too. Or better, I wondered why it was a squib at all. Mrs Figg might be loyal to Dumbledore, but she isn't much of a help, if Harry is attacked. Why not plant a witch or a wizard instead to watch over Harry (okay, some, like Mundungus are there. But it is Mrs Figg, who is there all the time).<<< Allen: >>Dumbledore's selection of a squib to be the long-term protector makes more sense than a witch or wizard. The use of magic to handle routine tasks such as preparing meals or cleaning the house appears to be firmly ingrained onto most magical persons that very few witches or wizards would be able to adapt to a muggle lifestyle. Mrs Figg, as a squib, would have a much easier time converting to the muggle way of doing things.<< A squib, unlike a muggle, would also be able to have some type of enchanted communications device. Mrs Figg is able to receive directions from the Order, and can presumably send information also. Susan: >I think that Mrs. Figg being the one to watch over Harry was very appropriate for the reasons that Allen stated. However, until the Dark Lord returned to his body, no one (even DD) felt he needed a full witch or wizard looking over him. Hence the Guard Duty of the Order with the invisibility cloaks.< KathyK jumps in with: >From OOP chapter 8 (on US edition p 143): "We have no record of any witch or wizard living in Little Whinging other than Harry Potter," said Madam Bones at once. "That situation has always been closely monitored, given...given past events." That seems a good enough reason right there not to have a wizard or witch watching over Harry. If the Ministry is monitoring the area that closely, why would Dumbledore risk using a wizard or witch and alerting the Ministry that he was also watching, outside their scope of power? He's much too smart for that. Arabella Figg is a very important member of Dumbledore's network in that respect. She can keep an eye on Harry and the neighborhood for anything unusual. As a squib not monitored by the ministry, she can get so close to Harry that she's babysat him on occasion. Also as a squib, she has knowledge of the WW and the means it uses to communicate. I believe she's kept in touch with Dumbledore over the years, reporting on Harry's condition from the times she sees him. But I don't think she's communicated with him through conventional magical means such as owl post or the Floo Network. If the Ministry was keeping an eye on Harry's neighborhood, that probably meant watching the skies, too, for suspiciously acting owls. And the Floo network is controlled by the Ministry, so Mrs. Figg's house couldn't possibly be connected. The Ministry would have to notice that. OOP, chapter 37 (US p 830) Dumbledore says: "I should explain that members of the Order of the Phoenix have more reliable methods of communicating than the fire in Dolores Umbridge's office." Mrs. Figg is probably using one of these "more reliable methods" to keep Dumbledore apprised of what is going on in Little Whinging. Perhaps he (or other trusted people like McGonagall) even visited her once in a while. Or maybe she met them somewhere. In response to Allen's message that squibs are better equipped at managing the muggle world: I agree with you, generally. But what about muggle born witches and wizards? Surely they could dig back into the past to remember the muggle ways they grew up with. They may not like it, but I'll bet they could manage. But they'd be noticed by the Ministry as magical folks living in close proximity to Harry Potter. To reply to Susan's comment that not even Dumbledore believed Harry needed full protection while LV was not in his right body: I disagree. Dumbledore always knew that Voldemort would find a way to return one day (OOP, US p 835). He didn't know when that would be. Plus he says in the same paragraph that he needed to keep Harry safe from Voldemort's "angry, desperate, and violent" Death Eaters right after the attack in Godric's Hollow. So he chose to put Harry with the Dursley's and used Lily's sacrifice to create that blood protection between Harry and Petunia. Voldemort couldn't hurt Harry there is my understanding of it. Until Harry came to Hogwarts he just dropped off the general WW radar, more safe from both Voldemort and his supporters, who would find Harry easier if he'd been given to a wizarding family. So I believe the Dursleys' home was as safe as Harry could get. Having wizards guarding Harry at that point would be an unnecessary risk. As far as the guard duty in OOP, at that point Voldemort's rising was a certainty as Harry saw it himself. Additionally, the Order had to be wary of the Ministry that spent the majority of the book doing everything possible to make Harry and Dumbledore look like unhinged fools. Indeed, they were quite right to be watching out for the Ministry as Dolores Umbridge sent Dementors after Harry. In that instance the Ministry was a more imminent threat than LV or his DEs. A little aside here, I always equated those few wizards and witches who bowed to Harry and stared at him pre-Hogwarts with Elvis sightings. Excited fans think they've seen the King, but who knows? I wonder how many witches and wizards think they spotted Harry but were mistaken. Actually probably not many as they would all be looking for the scar but I do like the idea of Harry sightings. Just thought I'd share. KathyK From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 06:06:27 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:06:27 -0000 Subject: Neville and Luna joining the order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katie_wible" wrote: > Ernie Macmillan annoys me so much, and he reminds me of > Percy kind of, so I don't necessarily trust him, same with Justin, > Finch-Fletchley. I think Ernie's gonna be MoM one day. He's got that politician attitude, loving to hear hisself speak and such. Self-importance (Percy-like). He's not like Percy, however, in that I *think* he looks at the situation and speaks for himself (unless his parents are huge Harry supporters, which is unlikely, yeah?). > I love Zacharias Smith though. He is so > annoying, yet hilarious. He says what most people are thinking but > they would never dare say. He doesn't care about offending anyone > (which is a little fault),but he is still hilarious just the same, > and I would like him to be involved somehow. Dude, yeah, he's cool. I didn't even think so until I read that...why shouldn't he be skeptical? He's got every right! Everyone doesn't have the trio's experience in how DD is reliable...he prob. just wants to make sure he's right before he goes off on a limb and rebels against the hig inquisitor! I would do the same. Am huge Z.S. supporter now. James Redmont From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 06:17:20 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:17:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin always being sickly In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "denimtoday" wrote: > > Lziner wrote: > > > I just hope she doesn't kill him (Lupin):)> > > Not to worry, Lziner. When she was interviewed at Albert Hall in > London she revealed that he's her most favorite character (or if not > character her most favorite professor, I can't remember which now). > > Denim Me: What? Just because she likes him doesn't mean she won't kill him. She loved Sirius but did it anyway. She's not just killing off characters because she has no affection for them. James Redmont From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 06:29:02 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:29:02 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death (was: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: <3F427DE0.1050708@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > digger wrote: > I don't think [the death of DD is] inevitable at all. For one thing, this is fiction, > so I expect the Good Guys to win, but if Dumbledore dies, they won't. Me: So the good guys are fighting for the life of DD? Huh? I thought they were fighting for the safety and lifestyle of the WW!? Sirius Black said there are things were dying for...and I don't think they're just fighting for DD's life! They're fighting for a "way" of life. To me, DD seems to be hanging on so he can save their way of life for others...esp. Harry, who he loffs. James Redmont From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 06:36:21 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 06:36:21 -0000 Subject: Lupin's Job In-Reply-To: <20030820020737.95426.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78082 Buttercup wrote: > Perhaps this was mentioned before, but does anyone > have any idea what Lupin is doing for the Order? > Perhaps he's using the werewolf angle to contact the outsiders of the WW. The tired, the hungry, the huddled masses yearning to breathe free. One of Dumbledore's arguments at the end of GoF is that Fudge must contact the giants before Voldemort does, because Voldemort will be willing to give them freedoms the WW has been denying them for centuries. So perhaps Lupin's been contacting other magical species the wizards seem to think they're soooo much better than. ~Margaret From slytherin_jenn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 20 05:04:31 2003 From: slytherin_jenn at yahoo.co.uk (slytherin_jenn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 05:04:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's first legilimant dream (legilimant?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78084 Been lurking for a while so...hi... Phluxist: > something interesting in the first book caught my attention. During > Harry's first night at Hogwarts, he has a really interesting dream: > > "(Harry) was wearing Professor Quirrell's turban, which kept talking > to him, telling him he must transfer to Slytherin at once, because > it was his destiny. Harry told the turban he didnt want to be in > Slytherin; it got heavier and heavier; he tried to pull it off but > it tighened painfully- and there was Malfoy, laughing at him as he > struggled with it- then Malfoy turned into the hook-nosed teacher, > Snape, whose laugh became high and cold- there was a burst of green > light and harry woke, sweating and skaking." I've always thought there was something to this dream but I haven't been able to figure out what except thinking that maybe Harry is truly a Slytherin(and he does possess many qualities of a Slytherin) but I think that there is something to it...& i'd love to hear more thoughts on it.... also I think that there is another reason that Snape hates James Potter and Sirius so much, something more personal than the stuff that has been presented so far and it would explain the hatred btw Harry & Snape...JRK said in an interview that the Snape factor would be explained in the last book and maybe in the next one(i'm really not sure) anyway really curious to what's going to happen next....I'm also wondering about the perfection of James and Lily...so far none of the characters have been presented as 'perfect' even Dumbledore admits to mistakes, and James' perfection has been struck down in POA and OoP, Lily seems to be without fault and most descriptions of her, and of James & Lily are too perfectionistic(is that a word?) I'm thinking could James or Lily actually be less than less then perfect? There are many references to not all who are evil being Death Eaters or on Voldemort's side.... insomniac's rant here anyway Jenn From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 07:12:20 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 07:12:20 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death (was: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: <3F427DE0.1050708@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78085 > digger wrote: >This assumes that DD is going to die in book 6/7, but I think we all >accept that is inevitable. > T.M Sommers replied: >I don't think it inevitable at all. For one thing, this is fiction, >so I expect the Good Guys to win, but if Dumbledore dies, they won't. >No one, with the possible exception of Arthur, is capable of leading >the fight against Voldemort. If Dumbledore dies, Voldemort wins >(unless he dies just before the Final Battle). Now me, Margaret: I agree with digger that Dumbledore's death seems inevitable. He is very old (even for a wizard methinks) and is exposing himself to a lot of danger being the head of the Order of the Phoenix. It seems (at least to me) very likely he will be killed by Voldemort himself (Dumbledore dying of old age would be so anti-climatic). It's interesting you should mention Aurthur Weasley as the only person who could lead the fight against Voldemort. I quote from Fantastic Posts (and Where to Find Them): "Members of the group have noted the similarity between the names Arthur Weasley and Arthur Wellesley, The Duke of Wellington. Arthur Wellesley led the British forces in the Battle of Waterloo in which Napoleon was defeated. Later he was the Prime Minister of the UK. Today there is widespread appreciation of his military genius and of his character as an honest and selfless politician, uncorrupted by vast prestige. The similarity in political careers is obvious, and it has been noted that this may be an indication that Arthur will have an important role in the upcoming fight against Lord Voldemort."* *For more information look at the following messages: Yahoo Group 6208, 6215 I thought that was very interesting when I read it, since I had thought the same thing. I think so especially after reading OoP. ~Margaret, who was very afraid Mr. Weasley was killed by that snake. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 08:13:03 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:13:03 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78086 <<"James Redmont" wrote:...Also, and excuse me if you think it's crude (we're all grown-ups here, right?), when Umbridge gets back from the Centaurs, I kept thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't think so, yet this still occurred to me) that she had been, um, sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: I thought it was pretty obvious that's exactly what happened, and very mean it was of Ron to make those "clop-clop" noises...reminds me of a scene from "Animal House". --JDR From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 08:59:43 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:59:43 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" > wrote: > >And yet the LOTR books -- taken strictly on > > their own terms, without the whole "first age" theological back > story -- are > > pretty much universally acknowledged to be profoundly religious in > terms of > > their prescriptions for right actions, and especially in their > exploration of the > > theme of sacrificial love that benefits others. > > urghiggi, Chgo > > > Me: > > Harry Potter's actions do seem to be based on a "force", ie, love, > and many people relate this to Christ. LOTR is likened to the life > of Christ, as well, because it's about making the right decisions, > etc. People (especially westerners, those from the occident) must > remember that the life of Christ is not the quintessential deity. > Christ did what was right, but he'd surely not the only one. > Christianity is a youthful religion. Many religions have come and > gone, and many were/have been around longer than Christianity. I > don't think we should say it's "Christian", we should look deeper. > The fact is that most religions have the same core beliefs (doing > right) and that *this* is something fundamental in the human > psyche. The fact that this says something to us (HP is a huge deal, > right?) is important...there's something about Harry that appeals to > us. And part of this is spiritual, or moral, or however you choose > to put it into terms. > > James Redmont This is an interesting discussion. IMO, however, it is more a case of lots of cultural stuff, references to Greek and Celtic myth and such, by an educated novelist. And some references to things mediaeval - like the Philosopher's stone and all those heraldic animals, etc. You can't do mediaeval stuff without religion being in there, simple as that. I know - I did mediaeval English literature for my Honours thesis. Sue B From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 20 09:05:14 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:05:14 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Figg the Guardian (was: Re: McGonagall and Mrs Figg) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78088 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > A little aside here, I always equated those few wizards and witches > who bowed to Harry and stared at him pre-Hogwarts with Elvis > sightings. Excited fans think they've seen the King, but who knows? I don't have my copy of HP#1 with me, but I think the wizards who bowed to him when he was little were all of them OoP members who were keeping an eye on him. One of them was Dedalus Diggle (not sure of the name - he always drops his hat). Another was described as wearing an emerald green robe - just like Emmeline Vance from the OoP. I don't remember the others, but I think they fit the description of the veteran OoP members. Remember - Dumbledore said he had him supervised very closely. He must have used his order members for that. Salit From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 09:27:45 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:27:45 -0000 Subject: Neville and Luna joining the order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78089 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katie_wible" > wrote: > > > > Ernie Macmillan annoys me so much, and he reminds me of > > Percy kind of, so I don't necessarily trust him, same with Justin, > > Finch-Fletchley. > > I think Ernie's gonna be MoM one day. He's got that politician > attitude, loving to hear hisself speak and such. Self-importance > (Percy-like). He's not like Percy, however, in that I *think* he > looks at the situation and speaks for himself (unless his parents > are huge Harry supporters, which is unlikely, yeah?). > > > > > I love Zacharias Smith though. He is so > > annoying, yet hilarious. He says what most people are thinking but > > they would never dare say. He doesn't care about offending anyone > > (which is a little fault),but he is still hilarious just the same, > > and I would like him to be involved somehow. > > > Dude, yeah, he's cool. I didn't even think so until I read > that...why shouldn't he be skeptical? He's got every right! > Everyone doesn't have the trio's experience in how DD is > reliable...he prob. just wants to make sure he's right before he > goes off on a limb and rebels against the hig inquisitor! I would > do the same. Am huge Z.S. supporter now. > > James Redmont Forgive me, if I am wrong, but wasn't the evil doctor in Lost in Space named Zachary Smith? Didn't Gary Oldman play him in the movie? Just a little irony there, don't you think? D From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 20 09:38:39 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:38:39 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78090 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" > wrote: > >And yet the LOTR books -- taken strictly on > > their own terms, without the whole "first age" theological back > story -- are > > pretty much universally acknowledged to be profoundly religious in > terms of > > their prescriptions for right actions, and especially in their > exploration of the > > theme of sacrificial love that benefits others. > > urghiggi, Chgo > I think it more accurate to say that they have been *interpreted* as profoundly religious. It's quite possible to do the same to The Epic of Gilgamesh (written about 3000BC) and Beowolf (pagan and from the Dark Ages). Anyone with a personal philosphy to expound can offer examples supporting that philosophy from just about anything. What does bother me is when claims are made that their accepted beliefs of what is moral behaviour is only valid when practiced by the adherents to their code. This is plainly rubbish. Self sacrifice for the benefit of others, defence of the weak, resisting evil, etc. has a history going back as far as historians can dig. I hope that Harry does have a moral code, but that could be very different to submission to a religious orthodoxy. Kneasy From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Wed Aug 20 09:57:36 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:57:36 -0000 Subject: Neville and Luna joining the order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78091 I am not sure, if the order, in the form of OOTP, will continue to exist. There doesn't seem to be a reason, now that everyone knows the truth. Of course the members of the order will still fight Voldemort, but now they have a lot of help, from the other aurors, for example. About the several DA members: The six members who went to the DOM, plus the Weasley twins, are IMO trustworthy. I would be very surprised, if one of them turns out to be a traitor. Especially, because JKR seems to like all eight of them very much. I think Dennis is to young, so he won't directly fight Voldy, Colin isn't younger than Ginny or Luna, so I can see him joining the fight in later books. I still don't trust Colin very much, but I am totally biased, because I dislike the character. He can very well turn out to be a brave fighter. I don't think Cho will play much of a role in the remaining two books. Maybe she and Harry will decide to become friends, but I think she will remain in the background. I don't know enough about most of the Hufflepuffs, Ravenclaws und remaining Gryffindors to judge them, but I do think Zacharias is the most trustworthy character, after the eight I mentioned above. He seems to be honest type, and has no problem to say his opinion. People like Marietta, who doesn't say anything, but are still bitter, are IMO far more dangerous. Hickengruendler From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 20 10:34:00 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 10:34:00 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > Me: > > Harry Potter's actions do seem to be based on a "force", ie, love, > and many people relate this to Christ. LOTR is likened to the life > of Christ, as well, because it's about making the right decisions, > etc. People (especially westerners, those from the occident) must > remember that the life of Christ is not the quintessential deity. > Christ did what was right, but he'd surely not the only one. > Christianity is a youthful religion. Many religions have come and > gone, and many were/have been around longer than Christianity. I > don't think we should say it's "Christian", we should look deeper. > The fact is that most religions have the same core beliefs (doing > right) and that *this* is something fundamental in the human > psyche. The fact that this says something to us (HP is a huge deal, > right?) is important...there's something about Harry that appeals to > us. And part of this is spiritual, or moral, or however you choose > to put it into terms. > Well, part of it is that we KNOW that those authors are or were Christian, so there's a natural tendency to locate the spiritual themes in that context. If Rowling were Hindu, or an outspoken atheist, I'd be more hesitant about tracing these themes in HP to a Christian source. As it is, though, I'm pretty sure that she's tapping into that vein for inspiration. It isn't exclusive, though, and I don't believe she's writing an allegory. She's drawing from a lot of sources, but I think they harmonize with a Christian outlook. Wanda From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 20 10:38:46 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:38:46 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's death (was: Lupin as next Headmaster) References: Message-ID: <3F434FB6.6000306@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78093 > > > Now me, Margaret: > > I agree with digger that Dumbledore's death seems inevitable. He is > very old (even for a wizard methinks) and is exposing himself to a > lot of danger being the head of the Order of the Phoenix. It seems > (at least to me) very likely he will be killed by Voldemort himself > (Dumbledore dying of old age would be so anti-climatic). > > ~Margaret, who was very afraid Mr. Weasley was killed by that snake. digger adds: I agree, Margaret, that DD will die at the hand of Voldemort during battle. This will (imho) mark the 'darkest just before dawn' moment for the OotP. The DEs will think they have won the war, but will have miscalculated or ignored some vital point that will bring them down. Fawkes will remain, and the Order will stay loyal to The Phoenix and The Greater Good, and will prevail over Evil and Voldemort eventually. Harry will also 'inherit' Fawkes when DD passes on. digger From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 11:36:40 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 04:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820113640.45914.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78094 --- > > This is an interesting discussion. IMO, however, it > is more a case > of lots of cultural stuff, references to Greek and > Celtic myth and > such, by an educated novelist. And some references > to things > mediaeval - like the Philosopher's stone and all > those heraldic > animals, etc. You can't do mediaeval stuff without > religion being in > there, simple as that. I know - I did mediaeval > English literature > for my Honours thesis. Sue B > > This is more of what I know, now. Ahyhoo, JKR did her homework into Alchemical beliefs. Every one of her reference to herbs and liquids already exist in real world literature, mostly Corpus Hermetica and The Flying Scrolls of The Golden Dawn. Since Alchemy is based off Christian, Egyptian, Greek/Roman and Isalmic (and others) beleifs, it makes sense that christian beliefs run as deep as they do in the book, simply because that is what she knows best. Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From Lynx412 at aol.com Wed Aug 20 12:05:33 2003 From: Lynx412 at aol.com (Lynx412 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 08:05:33 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] TBAY: Removing Prank to the George (are dogs allowed?) Message-ID: <154.23474e56.2c74be0d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78095 In a message dated 8/19/03 11:47:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk writes: > .Marina placed the glass back, and began again. "I favour a simple reading > of the Prank. No middle man. Sirius, spurred on by some event we don't yet > know about, acts alone on a nasty *adolescent* whim, and totters off to brag to > James, his best > mate. James, developing a conscience, runs in and undoes the damage. Lovely > and clean." "Hem, hem...er...sorry about that..." The voice seems to be coming from a small, stubby-tailed cat, who blinks when Marina turns to look at her. Seeing George eyeing her oddly, she starts to speak quickly. "My name is Cheryl, and I have a suggestion on the event that triggered the 'Prank'. I believe that I've mentioned it before, but it's been a while and this is my first time here." Sitting up straighter, she continues, "I believe that the Map played a part in the events leading up to the prank. I see the situation as going something like this: Snape is following Sirius, trying to find something to get on them. And yes, I think both aides were a bit guilty in the harrassment/bullying department. Snape sees Sirius with the Map, possibly watching Pomfrey escorting Lupin out to the Shack, and challenges him. 'Not so brave by yourself are you? And what's this?' grabbing for the Map. Sirius wipes it. Then Filch appears. I'm sure that he would have hated MWPP as much as he hated Fred & George. Snape claims, truthfully, that Sirius was up to something and that the parchment is proof. Filch takes at it and it starts insulting him. He confiscates it, drags them both to his office and gives Sirius a detention. Sirius, furious, tells Snape that if he wants to find out what they were up to, just head out to the Whomping Willow and use a long branch to press a certain knot on the trunk. After Filch is done, Sirius heads back to the Common Room and tells James what happened, including the information that he's given Snape a bit of payback...'want to go see him run out of there wetting his pants? hehehe' "James, developing a conscience, realizes that Snape is in real danger and the rest is canon..." Realizing she's now the center of attention, the Lynx blushes, leaps down and runs out. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 12:15:43 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:15:43 -0000 Subject: Full Moon In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78096 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > He was after Peter, and only Peter, and only because he was > convinced > > (with good reason) that Peter was still working for LV and would > put > > Harry in danger. > . > > Me: > > Um, wait a minute, I don't think he was trying to protect Harry...I > think he wanted revenge. Small point, but a point nevertheless. > > James Redmont Laura again: "But then I saw Peter in that picture...I realized he was at Hogwarts with Harry...perfectly positioned to act, if one hint reached his ears that the Dark Side was gathering strength again...{a}nd to deliver the last Potter to them. If he gave them Harry, who'd dare say he'd betrayed Lord Voldemort?...[S]o you see, I had to do something. I was the only one who knew Peter was still alive..." (p.371, PoA US) There's no doubt Sirius wanted revenge, but I think his primary goal was to protect Harry. Call me a die-hard Sirius-lover. :-) From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 20 10:41:13 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:41:13 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon References: <6D1A2ED8-D2C5-11D7-BB08-000393C324F6@mac.com> Message-ID: <000c01c36707$bdde4b80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 78097 From: Charlie Moody Dawn: > Canon is simply the information we have from the actual works > (the seven books printed so far) plus additional information > supplied by JKR through various means such as interviews. Me (Charlie): Dictionary.com has this: >> 3. The collection of books received as genuine Holy Scriptures, >> called the sacred canon , or general rule of moral and religious >> duty, given by inspiration; the Bible; also, any one of the canonical >> Scriptures. Removing the religious overlay, we arrive at something like this: "a collection of books accepted as authoritative, or any text included in that collection". Which tells me that HP canon is the published body of work by JKR about HP & the Wizarding World - specifically, the 5 "HP &" books & the two 'school books', plus such as she may add in the future. You include public utterances of JKR in canon; I do not. Any interview with JKR is not her authoritative work, but the work of the interviewer - and JKR's wicked characterisation of Rita Skeeter shows directly, I think, how she feels about that line of work. <> Charlie ------------------- Actually, I agree with you. Personally, I rarely take interviews into account when mulling over theories, and wouldn't consider them canon, but commentary. However, I've noticed a lot of people on this list consider anything apparently written or said by JKR to be 'canon', which is why I put it into a message designed to be a friendly shove in the right direction, and so that reading those posts might make more sense. Dawn (who would have probably jumped on her reply if she hadn't made it in the first place :)) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From abigailnus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 12:59:58 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:59:58 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Oh, What a Tangled Web - Generational Parallels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78098 Abigail's footfalls echo in the dusty halls of the Canon Museum. Galleries stretch in every direction, completely deserted. Everyone, it seems, is having too much fun frolicking on the beach, collecting driftwood, buying souvenirs and generally doing summer things. Abigail can't blame them. The Canon Museum is good for a field trip now and then, but it can be a little dry. Still, she's heard a great deal about this new exhibit. Now if she could only find it. She squints at the grubby piece of paper she picked up at the information desk. It is completely blank. "Oh, for heaven's sake." Abigail says, and pulls out her wand. She touches it to the paper and recites "I solemnly swear that I am up to no good." Lines begin to flow and connect, forming a map of the museum. Unfortunately, this map only serves to increase Abigail's confusion. She stares at it for a few minutes, turning it this way and the other, when she notices that there seems to be a dot moving in her direction. She squints at the tiny lettering, trying to read the newcomer's name. "Dicentra?" She calls out. "Is that you?" "Hello, Abigail." Dicentra replies. She's wearing work clothes and is covered in dust. "I'm just here putting up a display on The Role of Writing In the Series. Wanna come see?" "I've seen it." Abigail says. "It's very good, but I'm looking for the new wing. You know? The Stubby Boardman Modern Art Wing?" Dicentra tries, and fails, to conceal her distaste. "Why would you want to go there? It's all weird installations that no one understands. I hear one of their latest acquisitions is a copy of Captain Cindy's big paddle made of cheese. It's called 'Plastic Crouch Extravaganza 13'." "Well, if you must know." Abigail replies. "George made me promise to go take a look. Apparently he has a piece there." "I didn't know George dabbled in the arts." "He's quite the renaissance man, for an anthropomorphic personification, isn't he?" Abigail says. "Shall we go see?" Dicentra assents, and leads the way. Unlike the rest of the Canon Museum, the modern art wing is all glass and high ceilings. Beams of sunlight fall from the skylights overhead and illuminate canvases, sculptures, and things that Abigail can only describe as 'installations'. "I wonder what that's supposed to represent?" She asks, pointing at a pile of bricks and timber in the corner of a gallery. Dicentra frowns. "I think those are the building materials that have gone missing from the new fifth floor of the museum. I'll have to tell the director where they are. I think George's piece is in the next gallery..." She looks up to see Abigail staring, horror-struck, at a large canvas hanging on the far wall. "My God." Abigail whispers. "What is that thing?" There's very little that offensive about the canvas, in Dicentra's opinion. It is comprised of five straight lines. Looking closer, Dicentra can see that each line is in fact two separate, differently shaded lines, running parallel to each other. "It says in my brochure that this is..." She looks up. "Oh, dear." "Generational Parallels 1." Abigail reads tonelessly from the plaque on the wall. "Look at the list of artists! Nearly everyone on the list contributed to this piece at one point or another." She walks up to the canvas. From this close, she can see that each line has a name written on it in silver letters. "It's the Marauders plus Snape." She says. "Compared to the Trio plus Neville plus Draco." "Let me guess." Dicentra says. "Harry equals James, Ron equals Sirius, Hermione equals Lupin, Neville equals Peter and Draco equal Snape." "It's just so..." Abigail begins to say. "So... so wrong!" She turns her back to the canvas and strides off, looking determined. "Well, I won't stand for it. *Alohomora!*" A door bearing the sign "Museum Staff Only" bursts open in front of her. Dicentra follows in Abigail's wake, and finds herself in yet another high-ceilinged, well-lit room. This one, however, is unmistakably a workshop. Blank and half-painted canvasses are ranged against the walls. Boxes of paints and crayons are stored on shelves. In a corner of the room are planks of wood and lengths of metal. "I think for this we require a three-dimensional medium." Abigail waves her wand and cries "Accio!" and several pipes and a welding torch fly towards her. She procures a stand for her new piece, and proceeds to stand six pipes in a circle and weld them to the base. "Which of those is meant to represent the Trio?" Dicentra asks. "None." Abigail replies. "These pipes represent the Marauders plus Snape plus Lily." With a flick of a wand, she makes names appear on each pipe. "It makes no sense to draw generational parallels from the children to the parents. Parents don't parallel their children. We'll start with the past, and see how the future echoes it." She approaches the pipe labeled 'James Potter'. "So, who parallels James?" "That's easy." Dicentra answers, making herself comfortable on a worktable. "Harry." "Yes." Abigail says, picking up a pipe and labeling it 'Harry Potter'. She begins to weld the two pipes together at the base. "And no." A short way up, she twists the Harry pipe away from the James pipe. "The similarities between Harry and James are only superficial." "They look alike." Dicentra offers. Abigail snorts. "If that's not superficial, I don't know what is. They are also both athletes - gifted Quidditch players, but I think that's deceptive. Look at their roles on the team. James was a Chaser [1], Harry is a Seeker. I can't imagine two positions more unalike. The Seeker is an integral part of the team, but at the same time separate from the rest of the players. His interaction with other players is limited to avoiding Bludgers and watching his opposite number. He may be crucial to winning the game, but he has only one purpose and one useful moment. The Chaser, on the other hand, is constantly in the thick of things. He scores points for the team, and is in constant interaction with the other players - he passes and receives the Quaffle from his fellow Chasers, is defended and targeted by Beaters, and has to get past the Keeper. The Chaser's function exists only while the Seeker is inactive, searching for the Snitch, and once the Seeker performs his task, the Chaser has no further purpose." "Besides," Abigail says, picking up another pipe. "Harry and James' reactions to the sport of Quidditch and their roles as members of the Gryffindor team couldn't be more different. Harry is a preternaturally gifted Quidditch player, and he knows it. I don't mean that he's arrogant, but rather that he doesn't doubt himself. Not since his first match has Harry felt doubts about his ability as a flier. He only feels nervous about a match in PoA when he worries that Dementors might affect him during play. He never doubts himself while flying, and indeed Harry's reaction to flying has been described from day one as natural - he belongs on a broom." "For all you know, James was just such a flyer." Dicentra comments. "Sirius even says that Harry flies as well as James." "True, but I'm not talking about skill." Abigail says. "I'm talking about the terms in which Harry thinks about his abilities. Harry's skill on a broomstick doesn't translate to arrogance but rather the opposite. Quidditch is such an ingrained part of Harry that he takes it for granted. He neither questions his skill not takes pride in it. Unlike James, who obviously had Quidditch on the brain at the age of fifteen." "James had a lot less on his plate at the age of fifteen then Harry does." Dicentra points out. "But I think I see where you're going with this - it's rather obvious, after all. JKR draws our attention to the resemblance herself." "Indeed." Abigail replies, and produces a brick-sized copy of OOP. She opens it to chapter 31, OWLs, page 620 of the UK edition. "Ron has just finished regaling Harry and Hermione with his victory over Ravenclaw." ------------------------- '.... he concluded modestly, sweeping his hair back quite unnecessarily so that it looked interestingly windswept and glancing around to see whether the people nearest to them - a bunch of gossiping third-year Hufflepuffs - had heard him. "And then, when Chambers came at me about five minutes later - What?" Ron asked, having stopped mid-sentence at the look on Harry's face. "Why are you grinning?" "I'm not," said Harry quickly, and looked down at this Transfiguration notes, attempting to straighten his face. The truth was the Ron had just reminded Harry forcibly of another Gryffindor Quidditch player who had once sat rumpling his hair under this very tree.' ------------------------- "Harry has once, and only once, regaled anyone with tales of his quick flying." Abigail points out. "And that was Sirius, who wanted to know and hadn't witnessed the First Task - at this point, Ron hasn't yet learned that Harry and Hermione weren't watching him, but he still feels the need to give them a play-by-play." Abigail labels the new pipe 'Ron Weasley' and attaches it to the James pipe about halfway up. "Unlike Harry, and much like James, Ron displays his excitement - and nerves - about his flying abilities. Which, I suspect, is the reason JKR made him a player in the first place. There's no longer any suspense when Harry plays Quidditch. Besides, there's another way in which James and Ron parallel each other. They are both the best friends of a pure-blood wizard whose home life is unbearable, and they both provide that friend with a surrogate home in the form of their own family." "That would mean that Harry parallels Sirius." Dicentra points out. "But now we're getting ahead of ourselves. There's yet another parallel to James that we haven't covered." She summons a pipe and labels it 'Fred & George Weasley'. "You really believe that?" Abigail says, frowning. "I'm not crazy about OOP Fred & George, but I don't think they've ever reached the depths to which we saw James and Sirius sink in the Pensieve scene. In fact, I might say that just as that scene shows Harry that his father was quite a bit like Snape described him, it also offers us a sharp contrast to F&G's behavior. I don't think it's any accident that it is in 'Snape's Worst Memory' that we discover that the Twins have decided to escalate their pranks. I think we're meant to be thinking about them, and to see the difference between them and real bullies." "Sirius and James may have been bullies." Dicentra says. "But they were also pranksters. We have that from McGonagal, Hagrid and Madam Rosemerta. We also know that Fred and George inherited the Marauder's Map. If there's a better indication of generational parallels, I'd like to know what it is." Abigail nods, and takes the pipe from Dicentra. She bends it into a U shape and welds one side of it to the James pipe and the other side to a pipe labeled 'Sirius Black'. "There," she says. "Now we don't have to decide which twin equals who. Honestly, could JKR make the twins any more interchangeable? Their own mother can't conceive of them dying apart from each other!" "Is that it for James?" Dicentra asks. "Hardly." Abigail smirks. She picks up a new pipe and, with a flourish of her wand, labels it 'Draco Malfoy'. "Both bullies." She says thoughtfully. "Both use as an excuse for their bullying an ideological disagreement - hatred of Muggle-borns and their friends in Draco's case, hatred of the Dark Arts in James' case. Both prefer to gang up on their victims - note Draco's attempt on Harry at the end of OOP. Both enjoy the adoration of sycophantic friends." "You're asking for trouble with that one." Dicentra points out. "What does equating James with Draco tell us about Draco's future? What does it say about James? Doesn't the fact that James' bullying was motivated by a hatred of the Dark Arts make him better then Draco?" "That last one is a definite no." Abigail says sternly. "Harry hates the Dark Arts, and so does Ron. Neither of them would even consider the kind of display that James and Sirius make of Snape. As for the future... we know that James cleaned up his act. He went from a boy Lily despised to the man she married, from treating Peter like dirt to trusting him with his life and that of his family. I don't know what that tells us about Draco, because I think that when it comes to Draco's future, he parallels another character, one that we've heard of only in passing." Abigail finds a rather short pipe and welds it to the Draco pipe. She labels it 'Regulus Black'. "A while back [2], I offered the observation that, >> My own personal view of Draco has for a long time been that he's the Potterverse equivalent of A.J. Soprano - the privileged son of a corrupt father who is simply too soft to successfully take over the family business. I believe, as many people do, that Draco will find himself unequal to the task of being a DE, although not necessarily for any moral reasons - he simply won't be able to hack it. And I also agree that in such a case, there's a very good chance that either Lucius or LV will kill him. Frankly, I don't see any way that the series could end without Draco being either redeemed or dead.>> "I think the introduction of Sirius' brother strengthens that possibility. To quote Elkins [3], >> It's just plain sad, is what it is. Draco just doesn't have very much in the way of strengths, while his weaknesses are legion. He is a coward, both in terms of his visceral response to immediate peril (the Unicorn-blood-swilling Quirrell in Book One, Buckbeak in Book Three) and in terms of his lack of longer-term resilience. He does not bounce back well from traumatic events: after being ferret-bounced by Fake Moody, even the mere mention of the man's *name* is enough to make him blanch. He can't control his emotions very well. He loses his temper; he speaks when it is unwise for him to do so; he can dish out verbal abuse, but he can't take it. Furthermore, on the two occasions when we have seen his behavior when he's not putting on a front for Harry and his friends -- the Knockturn Alley scene and the Polyjuice scene, both in _CoS_ -- he is sulky, petulant and whiny.>> "Which cements the parallel in my opinion. Draco is in no way his father's son. He is whiny, demanding and thinks the world should be handed to him on a platter. If he joins the Death Eaters, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he follows in Regulus' footsteps." "James sure gets around, doesn't he." Dicentra says drily. "Not bad for a guy who's had only one appearance in canon." "Two, if you count his shade at the graveyard in GoF." Abigail points out. "But it is still impressive. I wonder if James is a sort of all-encompassing father. He echoes in every male of Harry's age." "What about Neville?" Dicentra asks. "Neville is a special case, and we'll get to him later." Abigail replies. She moves over to the pipe labeled 'Sirius Black'. "Now, we've already said that within the Harry/Ron relationship, Harry parallels Sirius, so let's just take care of that." She bends the Harry pipe towards the Sirius pipe and welds them together. "Now, the general assumption is that Sirius is paralleled by Ron, and frankly that's not entirely off-base. In terms of personality, Ron and Sirius are both hot-tempered and not a little reckless. They tend to act first, think second, and leave more cerebral activities to their companions - Hermione in Ron's case, Lupin in Sirius' case." "You've just made a lot of Sirius/Lupin slashers very happy." Dicentra says. "Be that as it may," Abigail continues, "A lot of people seem to think that this similarity of temperament means that Ron will end up perpetrating this generation's Prank. In light of the revelations in OOP, and the new parallels drawn between James and Draco, and between Harry and Snape (but more on that in a minute), the situation seems less clear-cut to me. Let's not forget that unlike Sirius, Ron is a prefect, and that he has far more potent influences around him." Abigail picks up two more short pipes and welds them to the Ron pipe. She labels them 'Bill Weasley' and "Percy Weasley'. "The Weasley children seem to fall into two camps. The Charlie camp, which seems to include Fred, George and Ginny, is more rambunctious, less concerned with rules, more physical and has interests that lean towards the dangerous and irreverent. The Bill camp, which includes Percy and Ron, tends to be more responsible. They have positions of authority both in and out of Hogwarts, and tend to be more concerned about propriety. (The two groups are also apparently divided by body types - Bill and his group are taller and thinner, whereas Charlie and his group are shorter and stockier.) Of course, the lines aren't clearly drawn - witness Ron's skill at Quidditch and Bill's long hair and earring - but I think it's safe to guess that Ron has in his two brothers two possible role models. I think his future will be more affected by these two examples then by any possible similarity to Sirius." "That brings us to Lupin." Abigail says, as she walks to the next standing pipe, which is labeled 'Remus Lupin'. "I didn't use to see a great deal of merit in the comparisons that were constantly being made between Lupin and Hermione, but OOP won me over. They're both prefects, both studious - in between OWLs, Lupin is poring over a Transfiguration textbook just like Hermione. More importantly, they've both taken to heart the plight of the disenfranchised in the wizarding world. Lupin criticizes the treatment of goblins by the MoM, and is the only person, child or adult, willing to take SPEW seriously." Abigail labels a pipe 'Hermione Granger' and welds it to the Lupin pipe. "You're forgetting something here." Dicentra says. "When Lupin talks about prejudice in the wizarding world, he speaks from an insider's perspective - he is a member of a marginalized minority. Hermione, in contrast, is nothing but a well-intentioned philanthropist." "Yes and no." Abigail replies. "Hermione is a member of a marginalized group, albeit one whose segregation is more subtle then that of werewolves or goblins. Hermione is muggle-born, and it is becoming increasingly clear that in many circles, including the MoM, that makes her a second-class witch. I suspect that Hermione came to Hogwarts in a golden age for muggle-borns - one championed by Dumbledore. Had she been a student under another headmaster, her experiences might have been marked with a great deal of unpleasantness. I think there is an exact parallel in this case between Lupin and Hermione. They're both talented wizards who can 'pass' in regular society, but are discriminated against because their blood is impure." "Alright, but there's another difference between Lupin and Hermione." Dicentra says. "Hermione speaks out. Lupin remains silent. Whether it's about the rights of house-elves, or werewolves, or classmates, Lupin prefers to look the other way. He only speaks out against discrimination when he is in a group of people he knows agree with him. We might not approve of Hermione's prostelizing, but at least she's trying to make the world a better place. Lupin prefers to be liked, whereas Hermione doesn't give a damn what people think about her. In fact, we might even say that Ron parallels Lupin - his reluctance to upbraid Fred and George for testing their products on first-years is reminiscent of Lupin's reluctance to stop Sirius and James from tormenting Snape." "Especially when you consider the F&G/S&J parallel." Abigail smiles, and welds the Ron pipe to the Lupin pipe. "I like that. And in contrast, the fact the Hermione challenges the twins, not to mention her outburst at Malfoy in PoA, dovetails nicely with Lily's defense of Snape." She welds the 'Hermione' pipe to a standing one, labeled 'Lily Evans Potter'. "Plus, they're both muggle-borns, and rather talented witches. And that, I think, is all we can say about Lily. We know so little about her." "Some people compare her to Ginny." Dicentra suggests. "But that's mainly because of the red hair." "And because they're trying to Ship Ginny and Harry." Abigail points out. "But given that we see more persuasive parallels to James in Ron and Draco, to parallel Ginny to Lily would be to suggest either Ginny/Draco or Ginny/Ron." She shudders. "Which one do you find more disturbing?" Dicentra ignores this. "Who's next? Snape, right?" "Right." Abigail moves to the next standing pipe, which is labeled 'Severus Snape'. "Now, I don't think we can avoid paralleling Snape and Draco, because they both hold (or held) anti-muggle beliefs and represent Slytherin." She welds the Draco pipe to the Snape pipe. "But there I think the parallel ends. Draco is a bully, Snape was a victim of bullying. Draco has a group that follows him around, Snape seems to have been, at least in his fifth year, a loner. Draco's parents coddle and indulge him, Snape's home life was, in the brief glimpse we saw of it, unpleasant. Draco is wealthy and entitled, Snape is..." Abigail flushes bright red. "Oops, that's not canon, is it? More on that at some other time." "In light of OOP, the real parallel is obvious." Dicentra says. "Snape and Harry both come from unhappy homes. They were both bullied and ostracized." "But for different reasons." Abigail points out. "Just as Draco and James have different reasons for being bullies, Snape and Harry are bullied for opposite reasons - siding with Voldemort and siding with Dumbledore." She welds the Harry pipe firmly to the Snape pipe. "Do you know, I really hated the discovery that Snape had an unhappy childhood and that he was bullied as a boy? I anticipated it, of course, but I hoped that I would be proven wrong. It seemed such a lazy thing for JKR to do - try to make us feel sorry for Snape because he had a rotten childhood. Then I realized that of course she wasn't trying to do anything of the sort - quite the opposite in fact. Harry and Snape come from similar backgrounds, but one chose evil and other has so far chosen good. What's important is not what they have in common but what sets them apart - what prompted them to choose different paths." "It is our choices that tell us who we are." Dicentra quotes. "Of course, there are other similarities between Harry and Snape." Says Abigail. "Will you listen to this? It's from chapter 24 of OOP, Occlumency, page 473 of the UK hardcover, during Harry's first Occlumency lesson." She opens her book and begins to read: --------------------- '"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!"' --------------------- Abigail closes the book with a bemused expression. "That gave me quite a chuckle when I first read it. Snape might as well be describing himself. I especially liked the bit about wallowing in sad memories." "Not always." Dicentra objects. "Snape can be cool as a cucumber at time. Look at him when faced with Quirrel or Lockhart. Or Lupin, for that matter. How cool would you be if you were face to face with a man who almost ate you? The most Moody can get out of Snape is an involuntary shudder, and he willingly exposes himself to Fudge as a DE. Apart from Sirius, the only person who consistently gets under Snape's skin is Harry." "And vice versa." Abigail says, nodding. "Harry proves himself capable of self-control in OOP. He stops himself from crying out or reacting in any way to Umbridge's punishment. There's a similar dynamic at play - Harry is attempting to control his emotions out of spite. He succeeds with Umbridge, but fails with Snape." "Snape looks at Harry and sees James." Dicentra says. "No matter how unlike James Harry is. Weren't you surprised when Sirius told Harry so?" "Well, it was a rather mean-spirited thing to say." Abigail admits. "Apart from that." Dicentra insists. "Even before the OOP pensieve scene it was obvious that Harry and James are nothing alike. James was obviously an extrovert - we could see that just by the comparison to F&G in PoA and the existence of the Marauder's Map. Harry keeps himself to himself. He doesn't show his emotions, he isn't demonstrative. He doesn't laugh often or draw attention to himself or show his feelings. Neither Sirius nor Snape seem capable of seeing this." "Well, now that you mention it." Abigail says thoughtfully. "There is another parallel I'd like to offer, although it isn't generational. Have you compared the behavior of OOP Sirius to GoF Sirius? Don't they seem remarkably out of sync? In GoF, Sirius was rather mature. It was in fact a welcome surprise after PoA, which he spent mostly in a deranged stupor. He offered Harry support and advice. He behaved like a parent. In OOP he behaves, as Dumbledore says, like an older brother, and not in a good way. I've been wondering if it wasn't at least partly due to his surroundings." "Well, being cooped up didn't do him any good." Dicentra concedes. "It's more then that, I think." Abigail says. "Sirius was a sullen, unhappy teenager in his parents' house, and lo and behold, after a few months living there he reverts to that sullen, unhappy teenager. He admits as much, when he tells Harry that he doesn't like being back. It's one of the few moments in OOP where you can see the mature Sirius shining through." "What does this have to do with Snape?" Dicentra asks. "Snape was a sullen, unhappy teenager at Hogwarts." Abigail replies. "And then Harry shows up, looking exactly like James, and you're right, no matter how different father and son are, Snape looks at Harry and sees James. I wonder if Hogwarts isn't a really bad place for Snape to spend his life, if he wouldn't have an easier time letting go of his hatred if he weren't constantly reminded of the reasons for it." "We're off track." Dicentra says. "And it's getting late. We have one last person left. Mark that last pipe 'Peter Pettigrew' and let's get on with it. Who are you attaching to him, Neville?" "No!" Abigail exclaims. "Why is this such a pervasive perception? Neville is compared to Peter once, by Harry, and at the time, not only is Harry not in possession of all the facts regarding Peter, he obviously doesn't know Neville very well. Peter is a sycophant, Neville is nobody's dog. He does not follow Harry around - he seeks out his company once, in PoA, and that's it. Like Peter, Neville keeps his own feelings well hidden - but that's a trait that Harry also possesses. When faced with a difficult decision, Neville chooses an unpopular and possibly dangerous path - not only when he stands up to the Trio in PS, but when he freely admits to losing his passwords in PoA, or when he chooses to accompany Harry to face Voldemort himself at the end of OOP. Peter is not a coward, but he always acts in his own self-interest, whereas Neville almost always acts selflessly." "Then who parallels Peter?" Dicentra asks. "Nobody, as far as I can see." Abigail replies. "That is, nobody in the present generation. It's a bit of a pickle, in fact, and what do we do when we're in a pickle?" "Quote Elkins?" "Exactly!" Abigail procures a dusty copy of message #45496 [4] and begins to read: >>Now that I am handed this opportunity, allow me to reiterate my claim that Peter Pettigrew serves as a literary double to Severus Snape. Peter Pettigrew is a fallen Gryffindor. Severus Snape is a fallen Slytherin. The two characters are "mirror images" to each other: they exhibit both symmetry and reversal. The mirror reflects, but it also reverses. The mirror always reverses that which it reflects.>> Abigail rolls up the scroll, tucks it into a convenient pocket and, with what seems to Dicentra like quite an effort, bends the entire Peter pipe so that it runs parallel to the Snape pipe. She stands back to survey her work. "There, I think we're done." "Not so fast!" Dicentra cries. "What about Neville?" Abigail rubs her chin. "Neville." She picks up one last pipe and labels it 'Neville Longbottom'. She walks around the fearsome-looking sculpture several times, testing the new pipe out against all the ancestor pipes. Finally, she smiles, and begins welding. Dicentra jumps off the worktable and grabs Abigail's arm. "What are you doing? You're welding Neville to Harry! You think Neville parallels James, or Sirius, or Snape?" "No." Abigail shakes her head. "I think he parallels Harry. Neville and Harry are mirror images of each other, just like Snape and Peter. The fact that they were both possible candidates in Trelawney's prophecy only makes it more obvious. Take a look at this post by Elkins [5]:" >>In terms of their respective coming-of-age stories, Harry and Neville seem to me to represent mirrored archetypes. Harry's story is that of the orphan boy revealed to be the heir to the throne. His adoptive family had denied him the knowledge of the potency of his legacy: his magical power, his financial wealth, the social status that he holds by default within the wizarding world. His story then, the coming of age story that accompanies his own particular archetype, is one of acceptance, of "coming into ones own" by proving oneself worthy of the legacy that one has inherited, and by learning to accept that legacy's negative aspects along with its positive ones. Neville, on the other hand, I tend to read as a representation of the opposing archetype: the prince renunciate, the abdicator or the apostate. Neville has always known that he is (or that he is "supposed to be") a wizard. He has always known that his family is old and proud and well-respected, that they are "pureblood." He has always known that his father was a kind of a war hero, albeit a martyred one. And he has always been aware -- far too well aware, I'd say -- of the role that he is expected to play within his society.>> "I don't know exactly what Neville's role is going to be," Abigail continues, "but I feel certain that he and Harry are walking the same path. Shall I tell you a secret? I think Neville walked into McGonagal's office and told her that he too wants to be an Auror. I see no other reason why Neville would choose to continue his Potions lessons, and I find it hard to believe that JKR would separate Neville and Snape, especially now that we know that Harry and Neville's lives are so closely linked (and I don't doubt that Harry will continue studying Potions). And once again, Harry and Neville are equal and opposite, because while Harry chooses to pursue the career of an Auror, which I suspect might not be the path his family would want him to take, Neville has probably had it drilled into him from birth that he should follow in his parents' footsteps, whether he wants to or not." "You're just asking for a Yellow Flag [6] there. You know that, right?" Dicentra yawns hugely. "Alright, I'll accept Neville as Harry's parallel. Stand back, let's take a look at this thing." The sculpture looks like the unwanted love-child of the Pompidou Center and a London Underground map. Pipes coil around each other, twisting in impossible knots, their jagged edges rearing towards the heavens. Dicentra frowns. "I don't get it." She says. "What does it mean? What does this... thing tell us about generational parallels, and more importantly, about the future?" "That it isn't set in stone." Abigail replies. "That none of these children have their paths decided for them, and that we can't look at the past for a clear road-map to the future. That our choices are the most important things about us." She blinks tears out of her eyes. "Isn't it beautiful? I think I'll call it 'The Next Generational Parallels'. Oh, Dicentra, you'll help me get it into the permanent collection, won't you?" Abigail [1] From an online chat with JKR on October 16th, 2000: Q: What position did James play on the Gryffindor Quidditch team? Was it seeker like Harry, or something different? A: James was Chaser. The entire chat can be found at http://www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm [2] Posted in message http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/51593 [3] Once again, the full post can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39083 Read the whole thing. Trust me on this. For that matter, just do a Yahoomort search on Elkins. You won't regret it. [4] In the interest of conserving space (ha!) I snipped most of Elkins' definitive list of the ways in which Snape and Peter are equal and opposite. If you're interested, read the whole post. [5] The entire post can be found at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/38398 I know I'm repeating myself, but for God's sake read the whole thing. [6] A Yellow Flag is a TBAY term which represents a warning to the poster. It is given when a theory assumes facts not in evidence - such as my assumption that Neville or his family want him to be an Auror - although in this case I don't think either is a far-fetched assumption. Yellow Flags are also given when a theory requires the existence of a previously unheard-of spell or person. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 20 12:59:20 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:59:20 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78099 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" > > wrote: > > >And yet the LOTR books -- taken strictly on > > > their own terms, without the whole "first age" theological back > > story -- are > > > pretty much universally acknowledged to be profoundly religious in > > terms of > > > their prescriptions for right actions, and especially in their > > exploration of the > > > theme of sacrificial love that benefits others. > > > urghiggi, Chgo > > > > Kneasy: > I think it more accurate to say that they have been *interpreted* as > profoundly religious. > > It's quite possible to do the same to The Epic of Gilgamesh (written > about 3000BC) and Beowolf (pagan and from the Dark Ages). > > Anyone with a personal philosphy to expound can offer examples > supporting that philosophy from just about anything. What does bother > me is when claims are made that their accepted beliefs of what is moral > behaviour is only valid when practiced by the adherents to their code. > > This is plainly rubbish. Self sacrifice for the benefit of others, defence > of the weak, resisting evil, etc. has a history going back as far as > historians can dig. > > I hope that Harry does have a moral code, but that could be very > different to submission to a religious orthodoxy. > First, may I remind folk who have commented on LOTR that JRR Tolkien was a deeply committed Christian. His mythology reflects Christianity although the time scale of the books is set in an ancient pre- Christian age. He, along with Hugo Dyson, had a profound influence on CS Lewis, although Lewis was a Potestant and Tolkien a Catholic. I, as an evangelical Christian, was rather cautious about HP to begin with (mainly because I allowed myself to be influenced by other's opinions without investigating for myself) but have now taken the books and films on board and enjoy them and discussion thereof with great delight. I have sometimes used references from HP when discussing matters with my church Youth Group to underline certain aspects of belief and action and I become increasingly of the opinion that Harry is very much more like a Christian believer than a Christ figure. For example, in PS, Dumbledore tells him that his mother's sacrifice left it's own mark ? "Not as a scar, no visible sign .to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection for ever." This is some ways the Christian experience. Of course, you have to decide what you mean by Christian. George Carey, while still Archbishop of Canterbury, chided a TV announcer gently on one occasion by saying that he was confusing "Churchianity" with "Christianity" which is what a huge number of people do. If people say to me "You're religious aren't you?" my reply is "No, I'm a Christian". True Christianity is believing that Jesus was God taking on human form and sacrificing himself to save us to give us "protection for ever." It is more than rituals and rules, it is more that a set of rules for life or a religious orthodoxy, it is knowing that God lives within us personally. Again, to finish, Dumbledore points out to Harry in COS that what we are is a result of our choices, not our abilities and this again is part of the core of real Christian belief. Harry reminds me so much of myself in many ways when I was at that age, looking for answers, being impatient, not listening to wiser counsels, making a pig's ear of things but I believe that I finally reached decisions which have given me a full and satisfying life because I made the right choices at the right time. I am sure that many contributors to this group will snort and say "Rubbish" because they do not share my view of life - and they have a perfect right to do so. My point is that people who are at the stage of making choices for themselves at crucial moments could do far worse than looking at the advice Harry receives from all directions and the ultimate (and sometimes flawed) choices he makes. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 20 13:04:07 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:04:07 -0000 Subject: Canon In-Reply-To: <000c01c36707$bdde4b80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Crashing Boar" wrote: > > From: Charlie Moody > > > > Removing the religious overlay, we arrive at something like this: > "a collection of books accepted as authoritative, or any text included > in that collection". > > Which tells me that HP canon is the published body of work by JKR > about HP & the Wizarding World - specifically, the 5 "HP &" books > & the two 'school books', plus such as she may add in the future. > > You include public utterances of JKR in canon; I do not. Any > interview with JKR is not her authoritative work, but the work of the > interviewer - and JKR's wicked characterisation of Rita Skeeter > shows directly, I think, how she feels about that line of work. > <> > Charlie > Interestingly as an aside, much of what was in the phenomenal output of letters from Tolkien is accepted as canon by readers and analysts. Maybe this is because so much of his "back story" was outlined in letters and appendices. I hope the suggestion isn't that Jo Rowling is peppering her interviews etc. with scarlet coloured fish to create havoc amongst those trying to first guess her? :-) From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Wed Aug 20 13:38:13 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:38:13 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<"James Redmont" wrote:...Also, and excuse me if you think it's > crude (we're all grown-ups here, right?), when Umbridge gets back > from the Centaurs, I kept thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't > think so, yet this still occurred to me) that she had been, um, > sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > I thought it was pretty obvious that's exactly what happened, and > very mean it was of Ron to make those "clop-clop" noises...reminds me > of a scene from "Animal House". > > --JDR I thought I was the only one thinking this. I didn't want to bring it up, 'cause ,rape is ... well horrible. But, I didn't feel too bad only 'cause she had tried to *kill* Harry with dementors and about the use the Ak curse on him. I think she is one rotten apple. And the clop-clop sound Ron made, well, he is always a bit clueless. And don't forget Ron thinks she is *evil* so being nasty to Umbridge is just getting a little of his own back. Tj From scooting2win at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 13:53:27 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:53:27 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78102 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > > <<"James Redmont" wrote:...Also, and excuse me if you think it's > > crude (we're all grown-ups here, right?), when Umbridge gets back > > from the Centaurs, I kept thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't > > think so, yet this still occurred to me) that she had been, um, > > sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped...>>> > > > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > > > I thought it was pretty obvious that's exactly what happened, and > > very mean it was of Ron to make those "clop-clop" noises...reminds me > > of a scene from "Animal House". > > > > --JDR > > I thought I was the only one thinking this. I didn't want to bring it > up, 'cause ,rape is ... well horrible. But, I didn't feel too bad > only 'cause she had tried to *kill* Harry with dementors and about the > use the Ak curse on him. I think she is one rotten apple. And the > clop-clop sound Ron made, well, he is always a bit clueless. And > don't forget Ron thinks she is *evil* so being nasty to Umbridge is > just getting a little of his own back. > Tj Don't we all have dirty minds, I never thought that, not once, it's a childrens book when it comes right down to it. I think she might have had the hell stomped out of her, but raped, no, that's just not even JKR's style. Give her some credit! I think she was in shock from the attack and that part of the book is rather small, so we don't know what really happened. It seemed to me that she behaved as if she faced dragons not centuars. As I am sure that if she did manage to get away from the centuars that she was frightened by more then just them, like maybe a giant or what other creatures are in the forrest. Lori From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 13:54:57 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:54:57 -0000 Subject: COS Burning Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78103 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > How did Professor McGonagall know it was Ginny who had been taken > into the Chamber? > > No one saw it happen or they would have known where the entrance to > the Chamber was. > > Obviously no head count was done, or Ron and Harry would have seemed > to be missing too as they were hiding in the teacher's cloak room. > > This is driving me crazy. . . If this has been answered before, > please clue me in. > > Thanks! > > Bohcoo Reply as requested: It is alluded to in CoS ch. 17 (US paperback p.313) Tom and Harry are chatting in the chamber. Tom is doing the obligitory eight-page ramble of exactly what he had been up to all book to toy with his intended victim and inform the reader. He tells Harry about how Ginny had told him all about Harry, at which point he decided he wanted Harry and was going to use Ginny as bait. "So I made Ginny write her own farewell on the wall and come down here to wait." As McG correctly told the staff that it was Ginny in the chamber, I guess we can figure that Ginny signed the note. (Or wall, as the case may be) What I want to know now, is what did that note say? But, alas, we are not told. Ginger, who is always happy to answer obscure questions, as long as they are actually obscure and stated in canon. (I'm not much of an original thinker, eh?) From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 20 13:50:20 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:50:20 +0100 Subject: Removing the Prank to the George (are dogs allowed?) Message-ID: <3CFCC33B-D315-11D7-B694-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78104 There was a racking cough, followed by a wheezing chuckle from a dark corner of the bar. Out of the gloom a dishevelled figure in a shiny suit, bow tie and winkle-picker shoes that had seen better days, became apparent. He was accompanied by a small, snivelling child. "Heh, heh heh. Evenin' all! Havin' fun? enquired Kneasy (for it was he). My word, you are gettin' yourselves into a state, ain't you?" Kirstini shuddered in disgust. "What's it got to do with you?" "Nothin', nothin'." said Kneasy, placatingly. "Well, push off then, if you can't be constructive" said Marina. "Constructive! constructive!" expostulated Kirstini, "This one is the most destructive stirrer in the Bay! And that's saying something!" "Now, now, no need to be like that," Kneasy wheedled. "Just thought I could put you right on a couple o' things." "Like what?" asked Corinth "Don't encourage him! You'll regret it!" "Funny you should ask" said Kneasy, ignoring the interruption, "Can't say as I know anything about them timings you was on about, but I reckon you're way off on one thing. Been takin' an interest in old Snape as you know, what with looking after his kid," here he patted the head of the mucus be-ribboned child, "and one thing I know is that Snapey knew all the curses. He warn't afraid of no werewolf - AK it as soon as look at it, he would." He sighed. Where you gone wrong, you see, is the motivation. James didn't go there to save Snapes life, he went there to save Lupins!" There was a stunned silence. "Yep, hated Snape, he did, that James. Wouldn't have crossed the road to spit at him. But the only way he could save Lupin was to get Snape out o' there. Just thought you'd like to know. Mine's a double, seeing as how that bottle don't seem to be doing anythin'." From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 20 13:58:20 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:58:20 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? References: Message-ID: <3F437E7C.2090006@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78105 vecseytj wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > > <<"James Redmont" wrote:...Also, and excuse me if you think it's > > crude (we're all grown-ups here, right?), when Umbridge gets back > > from the Centaurs, I kept thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't > > think so, yet this still occurred to me) that she had been, um, > > sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped...>>> digger writes: Thats just what I assumed had happened. It is typical of JKR to leave it 'unsaid' and therefore OK for the foals to read and not understand ;-) Just be careful and don't go telling the Religious Extremists what we think *really* happened between the Centaurs and Prof. Umbridge, because they will have a foaming at the mouth kind of fit and call for OOP to be banned. Its not a nice thing for the Centaurs to have done (if indeed they did 'do it') and it won't do much for Being/Beast relationships in the future. This must be a backward step for those who hope for future harmony between all magical beasts and beings by the end of book 7. I just pray that Umbridge won't get back into the Ministry with any powers, because that would be a disaster for all concerned. digger From jsmgleaner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 14:08:48 2003 From: jsmgleaner at yahoo.com (jsmgleaner) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:08:48 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78106 > > <<"James Redmont" wrote:...Also, and excuse me if you think it's > > crude (we're all grown-ups here, right?), when Umbridge gets back > > from the Centaurs, I kept thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't > > think so, yet this still occurred to me) that she had been, um, > > sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > > > I thought it was pretty obvious that's exactly what happened, and > > very mean it was of Ron to make those "clop-clop" noises...reminds me > > of a scene from "Animal House". > > Tj: > > I thought I was the only one thinking this. I didn't want to bring it > up, 'cause ,rape is ... well horrible. But, I didn't feel too bad > only 'cause she had tried to *kill* Harry with dementors and about the > use the Ak curse on him. I think she is one rotten apple. [snip] Now Me: I feel dumb for not cottoning on to the rape in my first read, but now that you've pointed it out, I think that it further supports the reading of Umbridge as someone who muddies the good/bad, OOP/DE distinctions. The desire on the list for Umbridge to receive punishment (I'm now referring to many threads, not just this one), sometimes (as in this case) summary punishment and torture, creates an interesting and important parallel to Sirius Black and how Crouch, Sr. sent him to Azkaban without a trial. Let me just tack on one other important parallel for Umbridge. There was some talk about whether Umbridge will be back and whether she is a Death Eater. I don't think she's a Death Eater in Book 5 (since it would ruin my belief that she muddies those binary waters) but is someone who took advantage of the chaos produced by Voldemort's return (I'm all aboard the "banality of evil" reading here) to seize power for herself and Fudge. I do adamentally believe that she will be back. Here's why: her running from the school reminded me so much of the end of PoA, when Wormtail escapes to the forest, albeit much more public. Umbridge, in my opinion, is an unfinished thread of the narrative. --jsmgleaner From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 20 14:39:57 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:39:57 -0000 Subject: Petunia reading the Daily Prophet? (Was Petunia/"That Boy") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78107 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "n_longbottom01" wrote: > > The first thing that occured to me when Petunia let slip that she > knows what Dementors are was that she had been secretly reading the > Wizard newspapers that Harry had piling up in his room. We are told > that Petunia is an extremly nosey person; I can easily see Petunia > being tempted to read the Daily Prophet while Vernon is at work and > Harry is out roaming the neighborhood. > > Petunia's access to the Daily Prophet could explain how she has some > knowledge of the Wizarding World. The "I heard it from that aweful > boy" line could have been a cover so that Vernon didn't get upset > about her reading Harry's paper. The "Remember my last" howler > message would seem to indicate, though, that Petunia did, at one > point have some non-Daily-Prophet contact with at some point in the > past. Now Jen: That's a really good theory and one that fits in with Petunia's character. There's more support in OOTP for your theory,too: The scene where she and Vernon are watching the news and Petunia says: "as if we're interested in their sordid affairs" about the celebrity divorce, when really Petunia has "followed the case obssessively in every magazine she can lay her bony hands on." She's definitely portrayed as a snoop and gossip throughout the series. Why now, though? Is she just pretending an abhorrence for all things magic and her curiousity caught up with her? Petunia doesn't find out until later in the Azkaban conversation that LV is back, so she can't be looking for information on his return in the Daily Prophet. I wonder if it's some change in Harry she sees that reminds her of Lily. Certainly he is acting different, constantly trying to watch the news, getting the newspaper by owl post. Maybe Petunia saw a change in Lily when Voldemort took power. That reminds me, one of my all-time favorite scenes is during this conversation, when Harry tells the Dursleys that Lord Voldemort is back: "[Petunia]was looking at him as she had never looked at him before. And all of a sudden, for the very first time in his life, Harry could fully appreciate that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister....All he knew was that he was not the only person in the room who had an inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean." That scene still gives me chills, it's only the second time Petunia seems like a multi-dimensional character, instead of a cartoon figure. My first thought was, "the woman has MANY secrets that no one, including her family, are privvy to." After all, her whole family life is built on a lie that keeps compounding year after year. I'm suddenly very interested in knowing more about Petunia--Jen From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 20 14:58:40 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:58:40 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78108 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > Also, and excuse me if you think it's crude (we're all grown-ups > here, right?), when Umbridge gets back from the Centaurs, I kept > thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't think so, yet this still > occurred to me) that she had been, um, sexually abused by the > centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped. Anyway, I thought I'd throw that out > there. There's no canon that supports it except that she came back > mentally hurt, yet there weren't any huge physical injuries...why > else would she be so scarred? And by the way, I don't feel the > centaurs are creatures who are likely to do something like that or > anything... Jen: You said above Umbridge came back "mentally hurt, yet there weren't any huge physical injuries" which seems to indicate more of a mental/emotional trauma. Why is she so opposed to "half-breeds" to begin with, is my question. Did she experience a traumatice incident prior to the centaurs and was reminded of that? Was it passed down to her by family? Typically such a zealous opinion about others doesn't come from a vacuum. The centaurs have never been portrayed as creatures who would rape, as you said above. They ARE being portrayed in OOTP as capable of physical violence and more territorial than ever before, although the only incident we have proof of was against one of their own kind. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 15:02:12 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:02:12 -0000 Subject: Harry and free agency (was : Harry and Christ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78109 "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > Again, to finish, Dumbledore points out to Harry in COS that what > we are is a result of our choices, not our abilities I liked it so much when the principle of free agency was thus pointed out in CoS. And I hated it so much when the Prophecy came along in OoP, and destroyed everything. According to this Prophecy, Harry is the one who will destroy Voldemort, whether he likes it or not, whether he wants it or not, whether he decides to or not. Where is Harry's free agency in all of this ? What choice does he have ? Basically, he was born "Harry Potter, the one who will destroy LV", and nothing he can do will change that. I hate it, because it completely goes against what DD said. Harry is the Saviour, he is the result of other people's choices and his own abilities (some of which are not even his own, but LV's anyway), not the result of his own choices. Del From abigailnus at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 15:21:53 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:21:53 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jsmgleaner" wrote: > > > > <<"James Redmont" wrote:...Also, and excuse me if you think it's > > > crude (we're all grown-ups here, right?), when Umbridge gets back > > > from the Centaurs, I kept thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't > > > think so, yet this still occurred to me) that she had been, um, > > > sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped...>>> And several others offered the same observation, to which I say: Oh, thank God! I thought I was really twisted, but the very first reaction I had to the centaurs pursuing Umbridge was that they were going to rape her. And then I felt really, really bad. Still do, in fact. Because there's a reason why rape is such an immediate reaction to Umbridge and the centaurs, and it has nothing to do with the centaurs themselves (although they are an entirely male group, and horses are a rather masculine animal) but with Umbridge and her portrayal. I don't like Umbridge, and by that I don't mean that she's a bad person. She is, and there are instances in which she is a superb bad guy. The punishment quill with which she makes Harry write lines is disturbing in the extreme, and so is the obvious fact that she gets off on Harry's pain. She does a masterful job of manipulating the staff and engaging in Orwellian tactics (her only misstep was banning The Quibbler article, which ensured that it was read by the entire student body). On the other hand, Umbridge often caters to the ugliest stereotypes on how women in power act and look. I don't mind that she's physically unappealing, although I do find the constant references to her toad-like face disturbing, but there's something almost laughable about the way she dresses and carries herself. She wears bows and pink clothing and carries a little handbag. Her office is decorated with kittens. Is this supposed to lull anyone into a false sense of security? If so, who? It can't be the readers, who cotton on to her almost from her first appearance. Are we meant to believe that the students, rather then being put off by a grown woman who dresses and acts like a thirteen-year-old, will find her reassuring? Everyone must be able to see through Umbridge's charade, so why does she keep it up? It gets worse when you consider the way she behaves towards other adults. With women she's often brusque, even rude. When speaking to men, even ones she despises such as Dumbledore, she is placating. Her voice is most often described as 'simpering'. She is obviously Fudge's toady - the only person more in his thrall is Percy, and he has the justification of being 20. You might ask what I'm complaining about. After all, Umbridge is a bad guy - she's meant to be off-putting - but the manner in which she is described makes my teeth stand on end. I'm reminded of Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest (shameless plug: read the book, avoid the movie). Ratched is evil. She is a psychiatric nurse who dominates the men under her care, and seems determined to prevent them from ever becoming healthy. Ratched is described as cool and unflappable, but a great deal of description is given over to her big breasts, which are kept hidden, caged, in her nurse's uniform. The book's hero, McMurphy, is a wild and highly-sexed man who, in the climactic scene, strikes Ratched down and tears off her shirt, exposing her breasts. I hated Ratched when I read Cuckoo's Nest. I wanted her to be punished. I cheered when McMurphy struck her down, and then I was horrified by what he did next. Not because of the sisterhood and the need to stand beside any victim of sexual assault, but because of what that assault meant. In order to take power away from Ratched, McMurphy exposes to the world the fact that she is a woman - her sexuality makes her weak. Penetrable. I think the fact that so many people jumped the conclusion of rape in Umbridge's case - despite very little hard evidence in the matter - is emblematic of the same kind of perception. Umbridge needs to be taken down a peg, and how do we do that? By raping her. Compare Umbridge to the other evil female in OOP, Bellatrix Lestrange. She wears her sexuality on her sleeve, as opposed to Umbridge who tries to conceal her own sexuality behind her childish clothing and demeanor. Bellatrix bows to no man except Voldemort, whereas Umbridge kowtows to any powerful male in the room. I'm not saying that we should admire Bellatrix - her delight in inflicting physical and emotional pain (so similar to Umbridge's) sticks in my craw - but I prefer her as a portrayal of a woman in power. No one could take Bellatrix's sexuality and use it as a weapon against her. I'm not pleased by the way JKR wrote Umbridge. The immediate reaction to OOP is that finally JKR has remembered her female readers. She gives us Tonks and Emmeline Vance, makes Molly significant in the Order, brings Ginny to the fore and makes McGonagal infinitely more interesting than she ever was before. But then there's Umbridge, and the readers who delight in the assumption that she was raped, because the stuck-up bitch deserved it. I don't like that at all. Abigail From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 15:26:52 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:26:52 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78111 "James Redmont" wrote: > I don't know about you guys, but when I was reading OP, I kept > thinking that the reason Umbridge hates half-breeds so much is > because she *is* one. Canon to back it up? She looks very odd > (toad-like, short, stubby fingers, just weird-looking in general), > then there's the extreme hate of half-breeds (Voldemort hates > muggles and mudbloods...why? 'cause he *is* one). If she is a > half-breed, then what is she half of? She could be, but I don't think so. She looks like a toad the same way Snape looks like a bat : to make them more scary, and to make our mental image of them more vivid. And unlike LV who changed his name and thus managed to hide his being a mudblood, Umbridge couldn't hide her being a half-breed, because there are records (school, Ministry, etc...) that would show it, and journalists to find it out and point it out. Unless she is not who she says she is, I don't think she's a half-breed. > Also, and excuse me if you think it's crude (we're all grown-ups > here, right?), when Umbridge gets back from the Centaurs, I kept > thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't think so, yet this still > occurred to me) that she had been, um, sexually abused by the > centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped. It would be the ultimate > revenge, esp. if she were pregnant and had a half breed child. I > know this sounds crazy, but when I finished reading the scene, I > told my husband it was almost like Rowling was making it to where > an adult might just take it that way, but of course it's not > spelled out because children read it. Anyway, I thought I'd throw > that out there. There's no canon that supports it except that she > came back mentally hurt, yet there weren't any huge physical > injuries...why else would she be so scarred? And by the way, I > don't feel the centaurs are creatures who are likely to do > something like that or anything... I think we've all been living in an overly violent society for too long :-) We can't imagine a group of guys capturing a woman and not raping her. I must admit I had that feeling too. But as you said, it is mentioned that she came back physically unharmed. And a rape by horses (bah yes, that's what they are, when it comes to that particular part of their anatomy) would most probably seriously hurt such a small woman as Umbridge. Moreover, I don't think the Centaurs would ever lower themselves to such degrading practices. Especially considering the contempt with which they view humans. They have a high opinion of themselves, so such a thing wouldn't be consistent with their general attitude. Still, the idea of the half-breed baby is appealing... Even though she would just probably dump him somewhere and make his life miserable... Del From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 15:28:48 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:28:48 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > Also, and excuse me if you think it's crude "snip" when Umbridge gets back from the Centaurs, I kept thinking that she had been, um, sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped. It would be the ultimate revenge, esp. if she were pregnant and had a half breed child. Talisman, placing her fingers in Trevor's ears, responds: And to think Bane didn't want Firenze to give _Harry_ a ride. Umbridge deserves whatever she gets, but do the Centaurs? (Talisman, thinking of toads with horse bodies, or men with toad bodies, or horses with human ears that hop like toads, hurries off to make some badges for S.C.A.R.E.:the Sexually-scarred Centaur Amelioration Resource Entity.) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 20 15:34:14 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:34:14 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death (was: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: <3F434FB6.6000306@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78113 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > > I agree, Margaret, that DD will die at the hand of Voldemort during > battle. This will (imho) mark the 'darkest just before dawn' moment for > the OotP. The DEs will think they have won the war, but will have > miscalculated or ignored some vital point that will bring them down. > Fawkes will remain, and the Order will stay loyal to The Phoenix and The Greater Good, and will prevail over Evil and Voldemort eventually. Harry will also 'inherit' Fawkes when DD passes on. > digger That reminds me, do we know for sure Fawkes didn't belong to James and Lily? Perhaps he is loyal to whoever heads the OOTP--are we sure that has always been Dumbledore? He's definitely leading the movement this time around, but I don't recall canon for the leader in the last war. We know for sure DD is the wizard LV fears most, but we also know Lily and James defied LV three times--perhaps DD was more in the background last time b/c of his knowledge of the prophecy, and James/Lily were the leaders? Dumbledore had some of their valuable possessions: key to the vault, invisibility cloak. We know Harry assumes Fawkes is Dumbledore's because he's first seen in DD's office. Then in COS, DD tells Harry "you must have shown real loyalty to me" for Fawkes to appear in the chamber, but that could be loyalty to the OOTP, symbolized by DD. Just some thoughts, prompted by digger's idea that Harry will inherit Fawkes. Jen From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 15:41:07 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:41:07 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78114 This turned out to be a longish post. I've checked the archives, and I can't find anything on this subject. Please excuse me if I'm wrong on that. Umbridge had many uses in OOP, and I think one was to provide information about other characters. One way she did that was by interviewing the teachers while she was high inquisitor. We find out that Snape began teaching fourteen years ago and that he keeps applying for the DADA position. None of that is very enlightening. We know he wants that job, and we can assume that he took the potions position upon the disappearance of Voldemort, after he proved himself loyal to Dumbledore. We also find out that Professor Trelawney has been at Hogwarts for sixteen years, but later on, we find out the story behind her hire as well. Now, McGonagall's answer is what I find intriguing. We learn that she has been at Hogwarts for thirty-nine years, but we don't find out any new information behind her arrival at Hogwarts. Is this information that we're supposed to keep in the back of our minds for a later purpose? I have my own opinions about McGonagall. She came to Hogwarts twenty- four years before Harry was born. I believe she is Harry's great-grandmother on James's side, and that, for some reason (perhaps James's father was killed), it became necessary for her to take on a job to help the family out when James was born. Now, I know this theory doesn't fall in line with the "James was well-off" theory, and it's a little far-fetched besides. What do you think? Elli From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 07:45:58 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 07:45:58 -0000 Subject: Sit Down, Ron (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78115 This is a filk of the song "Sit Down, John" from the musical 1776. I seek to tread in virgin pastures, unmarked by any trace of previous exploration. Wherever I go, however, no matter how high the mountain or how long the valley, Ever do I see the tracks of one who has gone before, and willy-nilly, I must step in his footprints. I speak of Caius Marcius Coriolanus, and it is to him I dedicate this filk. Sit Down, Ron (with apologies to John Adams, the Second Continental Congress and the city of Philadelphia) SCENE: Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger, newly-minted Gryffindor prefects, confront the Weasley twins, Fred & George, who are using first-years as guinea pigs. Hermione urges Ron to exercise his authority. The twins are unimpressed by their little brother's new office. HERMIONE: Come on, Ron! Come on, Ron! By Godric, Ron, come on! Come on, Ron! Come on, Ron! By Godric, Ron, come on! Ron, you must remember you're a prefect! (to the Twins) Don't hurt those first-years! FRED & GEORGE: They're all volunteers! Besides, you see they all are still alive! HERMIONE: Ron, you must remember you're a prefect! RON WEASLEY (reluctantly): I say skive off! Skive off! No more Fainting Fancies, please! FRED & GEORGE: Hey! Our ickle Ronnie's now a prefect! RON: I say skive off! FRED & GEORGE: Sit down, Ron! RON WEASLEY (practically begging): No more Fainting Fancies, please! FRED & GEORGE: Listen hard now, Ronniekins the prefect! No, no, no! Two dozen tries! Nobody dies! See? The ickle Firsties all are still alive! Say, Ron, go and ask your fellow prefect Can't she compromise here? RON WEASLEY: Skive off! HERMIONE: No, the law applies here! RON WEASLEY: Skive off! FRED & GEORGE: For Godric's sake, Ron, sit down! RON WEASLEY: Good Godric! Consider yourself lucky that you have brother Ron to abuse; Hermione'll never tolerate it! FRED & GEORGE: Ron, you're a bore; we've heard this before For Godric's sake, Ron, sit down! RON WEASLEY: I say skive off! FRED & GEORGE: No! RON WEASLEY: Skive off! FRED & GEORGE: No! RON WEASLEY: No more Fainting Fancies, please! HERMIONE: And I'll post an owl to your mother! RON WEASLEY: I say skive off! FRED & GEORGE: Sit down, Ron! RON WEASLEY: No more Fainting Fancies, please! FRED & GEORGE (to Ron): Will you please stop Hermione? RON WEASLEY: Never! (Even the Weasley Twins must bow before the elemental moral force that is prefect Hermione) -Haggridd From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 20 09:09:28 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:09:28 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: <3F422CED.1010406@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78116 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, digger wrote: > > digger said: > > Lupin's combination of deep wisdom, selfless attitude, deep feeling, > > calm exterior, and excellent methods of bringing out the best in > > people, mark him out to me as Dumbledore's natural sucessor at > > Hogwarts. > > Snip > > What say you? First of all Lupin is one of my favourite characters but I think he is too unfair and irresponsible to make a good headmaster. He forgot to take his wolfsbane potion. I mean he has suffered from being a werewolf for so long and then he just forgets to take it? That shows how irresponsible he is imo. And he is unfair and unjust to people he doesn't like or who his friends don't like (he is very influenceable too). He was prefect but didn't do anything to stop his friends tormenting Snape (and not on just one occasion, he admits himself somewhere in OOtP, that Dumbledore made him prefect to keep his friends in line, but he obviously didn't). Then during POA he didn't stop Harry and his friend banging Snape's head against the ceiling of the tunnel. This doesn't speak for his character. I think he couldn't be fair enough to be a responsible headmaster (even if he is generally a likeable person), but on the other hand neither is Dumbledore, so maybe we will see him as headmaster. This is all my opinion of course. Sachmet From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 20 12:21:38 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:21:38 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78117 --- "James Redmont" wrote: > I don't know about you guys, but when I was reading OP, I kept > thinking that the reason Umbridge hates half-breeds so much is > because she *is* one. Canon to back it up? She looks very odd > (toad-like, short, stubby fingers, just weird-looking in general), > then there's the extreme hate of half-breeds (Voldemort hates > muggles and mudbloods...why? 'cause he *is* one). If she is a > half-breed, then what is she half of? Half-breed? or what about " ... the Animagus transformation can go horribly wrong -- one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch on those attempting to do it." (PoA - Chap 18)? aussie From lilymaid_0 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 11:15:38 2003 From: lilymaid_0 at hotmail.com (lilymaid_9) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:15:38 -0000 Subject: Schooling in the WW Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78118 Something that has mystified me since I began reading Harry Potter is the education of both muggle-born and wizard-raised witches and wizards. There is the long-running question about wizarding primary schools, but my question is to do with the level of other education of the children of the WW. At 11 years of age, young wizards and witches start at Hogwarts. >From this time on, they are expected to write essays, read textbooks, measure potions ingredients and so on. How do they manage to improve their, for example, language skills, to compose essays of ever- increasing difficulty without further English education? The same goes for Mathematics and other core subjects. I can see that the action of writing the essays would improve the skills of the children but I cannot see most writing a 7th year History of Magic composition with eleven year old literacy capabilities. Any thoughts? Fiona, a long-time lurker From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 11:12:01 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 11:12:01 -0000 Subject: The 'Other' in the HP books (was: Harry's Sexual Preference SHIP) - LONG In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78119 severusbook4 wrote : > > The under currents could be read by any persecuted minority > > group as references to them. Anyone that has been singled out > > because of their genetic, religous, sexual, or racial differences > > can identify with Harry and his want of a place where he feels he > > belongs. > psychic_serpent wrote : > Actually, that's not true. As I said, normally, minorities have > company. They are in a family or community in which there is a > shared heritage, religion, language, etc. Sexual minorities are > unique in that they are born into a family where they are the ones > who are different from everyone else (snip) Actually, that's not completely true. IMHO Severus was right saying that sexual minorities are not that unique for the "heritage" you were talking about is not always shared and that's precisely the reason why people are often isolated *within* their own family, relatives, community, etc. This is not something that only affects sexual minorities. Thus said, I find your analysis really really interesting although I don't believe it should only apply to gay or lesbian people. > The 'ordinary' minorities who are depicted as oppressed > or marginalized in the HP series are elves, werewolves and giants > (or part-giants). These individuals undergo an entirely different > experience from Muggle-raised Harry or the 'blood-traitor' Sirius. > These minorities are being marginalized by people outside their > group, not by other elves, werewolves, etc. There is a difference > between being rejected by one's culture and being rejected by one's > own family, which would normally be a refuge from rejection from > the larger culture. (Dobby is the metaphorical gay in the elf > community! He still enjoys cleaning as much as the next elf, but > he ENJOYS being free, and other elves are highly suspicious > of him because of this difference. I do not think that it is a > coincidence that she repeats this theme so many times in the books.) Yes, and don't forget Firenze likewise ... See you. AAm. From nelliot at ozemail.com.au Wed Aug 20 13:08:07 2003 From: nelliot at ozemail.com.au (njelliot2003) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:08:07 -0000 Subject: Fudge Naive or DE? (was "is there a reason?") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78120 I don't think Cornelius is able to go all the way for or against LV. As far as his position goes, he's 'fudging' it! Good name for a bureaucrat. Nicholas From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 20 12:24:16 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:24:16 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78121 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- > The fact is that most religions have the same core beliefs (doing > right) and that *this* is something fundamental in the human > psyche. The fact that this says something to us (HP is a huge deal, > right?) is important...there's something about Harry that appeals to > us. And part of this is spiritual, or moral, or however you choose > to put it into terms. > > James Redmont I have to disagree here and this is the main problem I have with such the treatment of Christian ethics in the book. In books 1-4 the beliefs were relatively compatable with my own. They were general western ethics. Proably ethics held by a great many peoples. Do good, help your family and friends and try your best. HOWEVER - the idea that Harry will destroy Voldemort through love and that love is a force within him is NOT a universal theme. It is very Christian. It has nothing at all to do with my beliefs. I must admit to some annoyance when Christians or people with a Christian background (who are irreligious themselves) think that everyone part of some general theory of ethics. I think different things and believe different things. And I have no problem with HP being particularly Christian in is theological bent. I merely wish it was a theme strung more obviously through the story from the beginning. I think it would have been more honest. There is a big difference between drawing on magical traditions of Christianity and drawing on a Jesus theme... ONe is a part of a magical tradition - ie part of the point of the book and not particularly deeply treated. For instance Rowling allows Alchemy to be part of the background. The kids never use the stone. But Harry martying himself through his love is distinctly Christian. And it ain't universal. Golly From sharon8880 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 14:02:23 2003 From: sharon8880 at yahoo.com (sharon) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:02:23 -0000 Subject: Suprises in OOP or is JKR Teasing Us? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78122 This is my first real post here, but I've been reading the recent posts about the Lily revelation not really materializing into a big thing alot of people thought it might be. This got me thinking, as I recall, in some interviews JKR indicated we would find out significant info on Lily & Snape in OOP. I was thinking we would find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much. I was kind of disappointed to find out it was just a memory of him being tormented by James. As far as Lily is concerned, I thought there would be some revelation related to her saving Harry during Voldemort's attack. JKR also indicated there would be alot more boy-girl stuff in OOP. The Harry-Cho pairing & mentioning of other characters dating was mostly incidental. It makes me think that JKR was teasing us in these interviews by giving little tidbits of what to expect, but wanting us to wait until the very end of the series for all the questions to be answered. I was quite surprised by the development & amount of coverage (for lack better term) that Neville received. Will his character be further developed in the next books, possibly as a late bloomer? I was also kind of suprised how little Draco appeared compared to the previous books. Also, what happened to Ron & Hermione's prefect roles that started out strongly at the beginning, but virtually faded into nothingness at the end? Anyone have any thoughts on these items? Sharon From rachnastar at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 20 14:47:07 2003 From: rachnastar at yahoo.ca (Rachna) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:47:07 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: <20030815124624.9933.qmail@web14501.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78123 Maybe James was never Head Boy. I mean, most people assume that Hagrid was exaggerating when he said that all the dark wizards were from slytherin, so he could've also been exaggerating when he said that Lily and James were Head Girl and Boy. You know, when people say they were at the top of the class it doesn't necessarily mean they were literally number one, it just means they're doing well. I think that makes more sense than Lupin stopping being a prefect or Dumbledore giving James Lupin's position. Rachna From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 20 13:21:29 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:21:29 -0000 Subject: COS Burning Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78124 --- "bohcoo" wrote: > How did Professor McGonagall know it was Ginny who had been taken > into the Chamber? > No one saw it happen or they would have known where the entrance to > the Chamber was. > No head count was done, or Ron and Harry would have seemed > to be missing too as they were hiding in the teacher's cloak room. > This is driving me crazy. . . If this has been answered before, > please clue me in. > Thanks! > Bohcoo McGonagall is the head of Gryffindor House, and able to talk to the girls in their dorms. If Ginny was acting weird after stealing back Tom's diary, her roommates would have alerted the Professor. McGonagall may have heard she was heading for that area when the new message was found. I am completely and utterly 20% sure of this ... lol From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 15:31:46 2003 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:31:46 -0000 Subject: I'm new here Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78125 You have all probably discussd this into the ground. If so, please point me to the discussion. I'm interested in the idea that Stubby Boardman might be Regulus Black rather than Sirius. And then extending the idea, that he might be Snape. There is something about the way that Sirius and Snape interact. I know they are in the same year at Hogwarts, but if Sirius was born in say September or October and Regulus was born in August, it could happen. (I actually went to school with sibs who were eleven months apart.) From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 20 15:22:33 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:22:33 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death (was: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: <3F427DE0.1050708@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78126 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > digger wrote: > > > > This assumes that DD is going to die in book 6/7, but I think we all > > accept that is inevitable. > > I don't think it inevitable at all. For one thing, this is fiction, > so I expect the Good Guys to win, but if Dumbledore dies, they won't. > No one, with the possible exception of Arthur, is capable of leading > the fight against Voldemort. If Dumbledore dies, Voldemort wins > (unless he dies just before the Final Battle). Hmmmm. No one with the possible exception of Arthur? What about MOLLY Weasley? She may spend a lot of time on the home front, but didn't anyone else think she came across as an incredibly talented and powerful witch in OoP?? I was so impressed with her! Okay, so maybe she's not on the same plane as DD, but she surprised me with her abilities and forcefulness in OoP, as opposed to the way she came across in the first 4 books. [Kinda how Ginny "came along" in OoP, too.] Siriusly Snapey Susan From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 20 15:32:49 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:32:49 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ and the series as "Christian" In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78127 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > > Anyone with a personal philosphy to expound can offer examples > supporting that philosophy from just about anything. What does bother > me is when claims are made that their accepted beliefs of what is moral > behaviour is only valid when practiced by the adherents to their code. > I hope that Harry does have a moral code, but that could be very > different to submission to a religious orthodoxy. > > Kneasy I think you make a good point, Kneasy. I don't think Harry [or the books themselves] have to "turn out" to be Christian. Why not just let them continue to BE...and people can draw from them what they like? Different people so far have been able to see them as Good vs. Evil, or as in-tune-with-Christianity, or as god-and-dogma-free, etc. Why not let that just continue? It's the same way I feel about the gay "treatment" of the books. For some it's fun to think that the series is a metaphor for gay life, and I've read some interesting articles elsewhere and posts here on that take. It can still continue to be that w/o any one character (or the series) being overtly labeled as gay by JKR, right? And can continue NOT being that for others. I just doubt that JKR is going to switch gears at this point and begin *labeling* things "Christian" or "gay" or whatever. Let the reader get what he/she will from the books! Siriusly Snapey Susan From susannahlm at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 16:07:22 2003 From: susannahlm at yahoo.com (derannimer) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:07:22 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the Pensieve Four Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78128 Marina places the glass back, and begins again. "I favour a simple reading of the Prank. No middle man. Sirius, spurred on by some event we don't yet know about, acts alone on a nasty *adolescent* whim, and totters off to brag to James, his best mate. James, developing a conscience, runs in and undoes the damage. Lovely and clean." Derannimer, who was *trying* to get some work done on an acronym before all of these *people* came in, looks up from her pad of paper and frowns. "Marina," she calls. Marina looks across the room at the corner table where Derannimer is sitting. "What?" "Well, I know you're in mourning, but that's no excuse!" "Huh?" "You're disregarding the canon that got Pip started on all of this the *last* time around! As Lupin is telling Harry about the Prank in the Shrieking Shack, he says that "James heard what Sirius was planning" and went to save Snape. James *heard* what Sirius was planning, which implies -- and everyone agreed on this one last time -- that Sirius himself didn't tell him!" Marina is the one frowning now. Derannimer bends back over her pad of paper, still talking. "I know it's complicated, I know the timing's difficult to finagle, but it sounds like James did hear about it from someone other than Sirius. "Anyone know a word beginning with 'J'?" Derannimer, who apologizes for the brevity of this post, and who is working on something longer From sandyluppino at comcast.net Wed Aug 20 16:22:21 2003 From: sandyluppino at comcast.net (sjlupin) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:22:21 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78129 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elizabeth1603" wrote: > > Now, McGonagall's answer is what I find intriguing. We learn that she has > been at Hogwarts for thirty-nine years, but we don't find out any new > information behind her arrival at Hogwarts. Is this information that we're > supposed to keep in the back of our minds for a later purpose? > > I have my own opinions about McGonagall. She came to Hogwarts twenty- > four years before Harry was born. I believe she is Harry's great- grandmother > on James's side, and that, for some reason (perhaps James's father was > killed), it became necessary for her to take on a job to help the family out > when James was born. Now that is far more interesting than the assumtion I jumped to. I figured that 39 years prior, Dippet ceased to be headmaster, whether through death or retirement, Dumbledore took over and the post of Transfiguration teacher became available. If this simple theory is true, I'd love to know more about what Minerva did before and how she was chosen. I love her character, never more so than in OoTP! sjlupin From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 16:23:00 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 09:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sit Down, Ron (a filk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820162300.23678.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78130 I generally do not like song-type fics/filks, but this was good. You did a good job keeping the character where they should be. Chris --- Haggridd wrote: > > This is a filk of the song "Sit Down, John" from the > musical 1776. > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jsmgleaner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 16:46:52 2003 From: jsmgleaner at yahoo.com (jsmgleaner) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:46:52 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78131 Abigail wrote: [huge snip] In order to take > power away from Ratched, McMurphy exposes to the world the > fact that she is a woman - her sexuality makes her weak. > Penetrable. > > I think the fact that so many people jumped the conclusion of > rape in Umbridge's case - despite very little hard evidence in the > matter - is emblematic of the same kind of perception. Umbridge > needs to be taken down a peg, and how do we do that? By > raping her. [snip] > I'm not pleased by the way JKR wrote Umbridge. The immediate > reaction to OOP is that finally JKR has remembered her female > readers. She gives us Tonks and Emmeline Vance, makes Molly > significant in the Order, brings Ginny to the fore and makes > McGonagal infinitely more interesting than she ever was before. > But then there's Umbridge, and the readers who delight in the > assumption that she was raped, because the stuck-up bitch > deserved it. I agree with your reading (which I snipped a bit), which was I posted too (when you did your snipping it looked like you attributed to me someone else's quote, one I was responding to). Whether or not Umbridge was raped, there is a sense in which JKR puts her readers in the position of desiring revenge, particularly physical revenge agaist a woman. You've covered the issue of using women's sexuality to reduce their power so well, that I will simply agree. I had meant to point out that the many calls for Umbridge to receive more punishment, particularly physical punishment, or the excitement about the centaurs' possible revenge/justice can be read in another way, paying attention to the overall ethics JKR is mapping out. My point is that JKR uses Umbridge to place her readers in the position of acting like Barty Crouch, Sr., throwing important ethical boundaries out the window in order to fight evil on its own terms. Just as Crouch allows aurors to use the illegal curses and throws suspects into prison without trial (Sirius), readers are suddenly forced to confront their own reactions to an ostensibly bad character who has done wrong but is taken down for it, but not within a justice system. Some parts of Umbridge's character were heavy-handed (why "Inquisitor"?; why not something subtle like "Chief of Excellence"?), and I was really disappointed when JKR has Umbridge admit that she sent the dementors after Harry, just like an evil, inept villain at the end of a James Bond film, telling the good guys the whole plan and all of her evil deeds. On the other hand, the fact that she represents the kind of mundane evil that proliferates during times of crises was very important, and I think it speaks back to the first war with LV (through Crouch Sr.) and looks forward to Harry and others realizing that people who are on the bad side don't always know they are (or know they are helping it), which will make the ethics of the last two books more mature. I hope. --jsmgleaner, who is fascinated by the Umbridge character, and not just because of her visceral reaction as a teacher From lkotur at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 12:31:58 2003 From: lkotur at yahoo.com (Damit Lazarus) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:31:58 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death (was: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: <3F427DE0.1050708@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78132 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > digger wrote: > > > > This assumes that DD is going to die in book 6/7, but I think we all > > accept that is inevitable. > > I don't think it inevitable at all. For one thing, this is fiction, > so I expect the Good Guys to win, but if Dumbledore dies, they won't. > No one, with the possible exception of Arthur, is capable of leading > the fight against Voldemort. If Dumbledore dies, Voldemort wins > (unless he dies just before the Final Battle). If you look closley at Dumbledore, he always appears calm and almost "a weakling", but when push comes to shove he shows his powers. If Dumbledore is to die, I firmly believe it will be in a manner to save Harry, thereby proding Harry to the next level of his hidden talents and abilities. I believe that DD's death will bring the downfall of LV and his Deat Eaters. Harry will finally show us what he's got in the way of wizard power. LK From dragonlet9 at excite.com Wed Aug 20 17:02:29 2003 From: dragonlet9 at excite.com (drago9nine) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:02:29 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Death -- 13 to a table defense In-Reply-To: <59E50D09.50500CBF.001B530F@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > Brief Chronicles said: > I had a thought this morning about the 13-to-a-table issue. > > Trelawney tells us that, when 13 people sit at one table, the first to rise will be the first to die. > > In OoP, 13 people sit at a table and Sirius is the first to rise and the first to die. Snip > Somebody please tell me if I'm crazy, but I went back to the scene where the Order members finish dinner specifically because I wanted to reread the part where Sirius rises first. I'm at work and cannot quote directly (woefully unprepared for my first post, sorry!) but I was really puzzled because right before Sirius stands up, I believe we see Ginny sitting on the floor playing with Crookshanks. Doesn't that mean she had to have gotten up from the table before Sirius stands? Could someone let me know if this is correct? I'm rather afraid I'm losing my mind reading everyone's posts that mention Sirius rising first. Thanks, Dragonine From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 20 13:00:28 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 13:00:28 -0000 Subject: Neville and Luna joining the order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78134 --- "hickengruendler" wrote: (editted) > > About the several DA members (joining OotP): > The six members who went to the DOM, plus the Weasley twins, are > IMO trustworthy. Colin isn't younger than Ginny or Luna, so I can > see him joining the fight in later books. He can very well > turn out to be a brave fighter. I don't think Cho will > play much of a role in the remaining two books. Maybe she and Harry > will decide to become friends, but I think she will remain in the > background. I don't know enough about most of the Hufflepuffs, > Ravenclaws und remaining Gryffindors to judge them, but I do think > Zacharias is the most trustworthy character, after the eight I > mentioned above. He seems to be honest type, and say his opinion. > People like Marietta, who doesn't say anything, but > are still bitter, are IMO far more dangerous. Just as the twins were too young to be OotP members and join in the discussions downstairs, the DA members will have to wait. I would like the Sorting Hat's advice to be followed though. A unity between the Hogwarts' houses. (Slytherin too?) From rachnastar at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 20 16:33:14 2003 From: rachnastar at yahoo.ca (Rachna) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:33:14 -0000 Subject: significance in McGonagalls years of service? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78135 wrote: > Now, McGonagall's answer is what I find intriguing. We learn that > she has been at Hogwarts for thirty-nine years, but we don't find out any > new information behind her arrival at Hogwarts. Is this information > that we're supposed to keep in the back of our minds for a later purpose? > > I have my own opinions about McGonagall. She came to Hogwarts > twenty-four years before Harry was born. I believe she is Harry's great- > grandmother on James's side, and that, for some reason (perhaps James's > father was killed), it became necessary for her to take on a job to help the > family out when James was born. > > Now, I know this theory doesn't fall in line with the "James was > well-off" theory, and it's a little far-fetched besides. What do you think? > > Elli I agree in that I also think McGonagall is James's mother or grandmother. When I read the message, I immediately remembered this: --- Sheila McCleary: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why. (Comic Relief, March 2001 Live Chat) --- It could very well be restricted because she is related to Harry. As well, she is the transfiguration teacher and James was very good at it - and one of the reasons he got to be one of the top students could be because he had a professor at home. I know there is very little canon evidence, but I still like this theory. Rachna From carla68 at adelphia.net Wed Aug 20 16:04:08 2003 From: carla68 at adelphia.net (basilhummus) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:04:08 -0000 Subject: Professor Umbridge: Descendant of Tsathoggua? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78136 http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/tsatho.htm I came across this website and of course my mind went straight to Dolores! It would explain how she seems to be everywhere at once, and also there is a connection to serpents and the "dark side". "Tsathoggua has the power to travel between dimensions and the power to survive and move through the vacuum of outer space faster than light." "Tsathoggua forges some sort of alliance with the Elder God Set and his minions the Serpent Men." Hmmmm...... ~Carla From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 16:18:41 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:18:41 -0000 Subject: Harry and free agency (was : Harry and Christ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78137 Geoff Bannister wrote: > > > Again, to finish, Dumbledore points out to Harry in COS that what > > we are is a result of our choices, not our abilities Del wrote : > I liked it so much when the principle of free agency was thus > pointed out in CoS. And I hated it so much when the Prophecy came > along in OoP, and destroyed everything. According to this Prophecy, > Harry is the one who will destroy Voldemort, whether he likes it or > not, whether he wants it or not, whether he decides to or not. > Where is Harry's free agency in all of this ? What choice does he > have ? Basically, he was born "Harry Potter, the one who will > destroy LV", and nothing he can do will change that. I hate it, > because it completely goes against what DD said. Harry is the > Saviour, he is the result of other people's choices and his own > abilities (some of which are not even his own, but LV's anyway), > not the result of his own choices. I don't think the prophecy changes the overall message of HP as we presently know it, namely that, as Geoff Bannister puts it, "what we are is a result of our choices not our abilities". In a previous post (n? 78024) Laura Ingalls Huntley quoted a striking passage from 1 Corinthians 13:8. Here it is " Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease ; where there are tongues, they will be stilled ; where there is knowledge, it will pass away". I do really believe that at the bottom of the Potterverse we find such words as "love never fails" and "where there are prophecy, they will cease". IMHO, the prophecy is bound to "cease" in order to exhibit the true power of love, a power that will probably (I mean, in the book) show itself strong enough to contradict every prophecies and every determinisms so that in the end, it will become crystal clear that we really are the overall result of our choices. AAm. From carla68 at adelphia.net Wed Aug 20 16:25:31 2003 From: carla68 at adelphia.net (basilhummus) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 16:25:31 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78138 While a theory of Umbridge being sexually tortured would certainly be a horrifying possiblilty, I have a different opinion about what happened late in the forest that night. Since the centaurs are able to read the stars and "know" the future, I theorize that they may have held her captive and exposed her to the horrifying details of the war to come, its fallout, and perhaps the events that culminate in her own death. This would certainly cause a mental trauma without "visible scars". I don't accept a rape scenario, simply because it would be too vulgar and "human" for the centaurs' taste. ~Carla From flavia_pozzatti at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 17:13:52 2003 From: flavia_pozzatti at yahoo.com (flavia_pozzatti) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:13:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's warning Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78139 I'm sorry if this subject has been discussed before, but I'm new here and the search engine hasn't helped me. As I was rereading the final chapters of OoP, a question crossed my mind. After checking whether Sirius was OK, how long did it take Snape to realise that Harry and the others had gone to the MoM? I can't help thinking that if Snape had warned the members of the Order sooner, the outcome of the battle could have been different. Flavia From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 20 17:29:50 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:29:50 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78140 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachna" wrote: > Maybe James was never Head Boy. > > I mean, most people assume that Hagrid was exaggerating when he said > that all the dark wizards were from slytherin, so he could've also > been exaggerating when he said that Lily and James were Head Girl > and Boy. You know, when people say they were at the top of the > class it doesn't necessarily mean they were literally number one, > it just means they're doing well. No, Head Boy/Girl is a very specific position. It's not like the difference between being THE top of the class and being 'top of the class' (ie always pretty near the top). You are either Head Boy - or you aren't. It's like saying someone was President of the United States. They either were, or they weren't. No in-between. > > I think that makes more sense than Lupin stopping being a prefect > or Dumbledore giving James Lupin's position. > I think the likeliest explanation is that JKR has picked one of the many systems where it is *possible*, though unusual, for a Head Boy/Girl to be selected from outside the ranks of Prefects. If James had been a prefect later, I think Lupin or Sirius would have said so. It would have made Harry feel that he, also, might become a Prefect later. Pip!Squeak From urghiggi at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 17:18:59 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:18:59 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78141 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" < feetmadeofclay at y...> wrote: > > I think different things and believe different things. And I have no > problem with HP being particularly Christian in is theological bent. > I merely wish it was a theme strung more obviously through the story > from the beginning. I think it would have been more honest. > > There is a big difference between drawing on magical traditions of > Christianity and drawing on a Jesus theme... ONe is a part of a > magical tradition - ie part of the point of the book and not > particularly deeply treated. For instance Rowling allows Alchemy to > be part of the background. The kids never use the stone. But Harry > martying himself through his love is distinctly Christian. > Hi Golly -- well, we don't know for sure that Harry is going to martyr himself (which would make him a Christ figure for sure). As I mentioned elsewhere, I'm more inclined to think that he's everyman on a spiritual journey, in which case he could win in another way. I do think themes consistent w/a Christian perspective are present in the 1st 4 books as well, but somewhat less overt than in OoP. For instance the idea that death is not the end of the line (discussed w/reference to the Flamels in bk 1) is contrary to a number of belief/nonbelief systems but consistent with other belief systems, including (but not exclusive to) Christianity. The entire climax of CoS can be interpreted as allegorical: man descends to battle evil on behalf of a fellow human, man is losing when he tries to fight evil alone, man is rescued by a phoenix and rises triumphantly. (The phoenix has appeared in Christian symbolism for centuries, due to its death/resurrection characteristics. Traditional Christian theology holds that you die with Christ and you rise with Christ, which you can sure overlay on that CoS scene with ease....) The stuff is there, all right. But you are right in that it is getting more overt, esp in OoP. The theme that Harry is defined by his choices and not necc by predestination has been explored elsewhere -- and even now, despite that prophecy, he would be free to walk away from the fight, to hide as long as possible, and let LV have a free rein. The choice is his. He doesn't have to subscribe to all this prophecy stuff. Some belief systems endorse the notion of predestination, some are more choice-oriented, and it will be interesting to see where JKR ultimately goes with this. But you are right --- the whole idea of love as a force that can be used as a tool to conquer evil is very overt by this point. Also the whole 'beyond the veil' thing, that souls go on after death... is much, much more strongly stated in OoP than previous books. All that stuff is going to resonate positively with some and repel others. (I also think that teachers using these books in public schools need to start reading them pretty closely and deciding whether they are truly appropriate for use in that setting.) Still, considering that there are over 10k people on this list, and this hasn't been a huge topic of discussion here in the past -- I think you have had to stick the right glasses on in order to see this in the books, at least until OoP. I think it's been possible just to read them as fun stories, let the symbolism go right past you -- and I think a lot of people, kids and adults, can and will continue to enjoy them on that level. (Again, depending on what happens in 6&7....) Re your protest that she ought to be more clear about her intentions -- that's a fair criticism. But given in Western culture the idea that "intelligent/rational Christian" is seen as an oxymoron, it's hard to blame JKR for not advertising this stuff. It's a different world than Tolkein's and Lewis' (and even LOTR was not interpreted much as religious until he started giving interviews after their publication -- a lot of critics did not see it on first reading, apparently). I'm not surprised JKR wants to keep it somewhat under the radar, both in public interviews and in the texts themselves, if her goal is to have the books as widely read as possible. (If subversive religion is indeed what she is intentionally doing, which is still somewhat debatable -- books 6&7 will confirm that for sure, or blow the theory sky high.) But books ascribing to other world views don't necc come with labels either. For example, there aren't any big stickers on the Artemis Fowl stories or Pullman's "Dark Materials" series to tell you before launching into them that they are books with a humanist/ materialist worldview (one that rejects the notion of a soul or any transcendent dimension). (Pullman's books are really well-written, also -- technically better crafted than the Potter books, IMHO.) Anyway -- I appreciate your comments, your critical thinking, and your willingness to look deeper into the philosophy/intent behind the plotline of the HP stories. I am enjoying our discussion. urghiggi, Chgo From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Wed Aug 20 17:36:25 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:36:25 -0000 Subject: Fidelius curse/What went on in Godric's Hollow ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78142 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > > a_reader2003 wrote: > > << face Sirius. (snip) > > KathyK: > My understanding is that Peter wanted to make sure the deaths of > James and Lily got pinned on Sirius. (snip)> By faking his own death, Pettigrew also got away from angry Death > Eaters looking for the man who led Voldemort to his destruction. > This way, none of them would have any reason to look for him. If > Pettigrew just ran, he'd always be looking over his shoulder. > > And while he could have hid out as a rat from the DE's (assuming they > didn't know of his illegal animagus status), he could never hide from > a free and vengeful Sirius. > > Faking his death and pinning it on Sirius are completely within > Pettigrew's weak and fearful character, IMO. > > Just some speculation, > > KathyK CW: Hmmm.. I suppose so, but what bothers me is the stupendous risk involved. If Peter got his timing wrong by a millisecond, Sirius would have killed him, and Peter by all accounts had no reputation for duelling. Also, he was still condemming himself to live as a rat indefinitely by this plan.... From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 17:58:14 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:58:14 -0000 Subject: Suprises in OOP or is JKR Teasing Us? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78143 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sharon" wrote: > This is my first real post here, but I've been reading the recent > posts about the Lily revelation not really materializing into a big > thing alot of people thought it might be. This got me thinking, as I > recall, in some interviews JKR indicated we would find out > significant info on Lily & Snape in OOP. I was thinking we would > find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much. I was kind of > disappointed to find out it was just a memory of him being tormented > by James. As far as Lily is concerned, I thought there would be some > revelation related to her saving Harry during Voldemort's attack. > JKR also indicated there would be alot more boy-girl stuff in OOP. > The Harry-Cho pairing & mentioning of other characters dating was > mostly incidental. It makes me think that JKR was teasing us in these > interviews by giving little tidbits of what to expect, but wanting us > to wait until the very end of the series for all the questions to be > answered. I was quite surprised by the development & amount of > coverage (for lack better term) that Neville received. Will his > character be further developed in the next books, possibly as a late > bloomer? I was also kind of suprised how little Draco appeared > compared to the previous books. Also, what happened to Ron & > Hermione's prefect roles that started out strongly at the beginning, > but virtually faded into nothingness at the end? Anyone have any > thoughts on these items? > Sharon Hi Sharon, Here are some of my thoughts on what you wrote: 1.) "I was thinking we would find out why Dumbledore trusts Snape so much. I was kind of disappointed to find out it was just a memory of him being tormented by James." I agree, I thought we would at least get some idea what his secret mission is. One thing is for sure... DD trusts Snape. 2.) "As far as Lily is concerned, I thought there would be some > revelation related to her saving Harry during Voldemort's attack." Admittedly, knowing that Lily detested James in school was not the profound revelation I was expecting. As usual, JKs answers lead to more questions... 3.) "JKR also indicated there would be alot more boy-girl stuff in OOP. > The Harry-Cho pairing & mentioning of other characters dating was > mostly incidental." Of everything that I enjoyed, it was the way she wrote the awkwardness and confusion of Harry (and the complexity of Cho's emotions). What we find is a lesson that the object of your hearts desire isn't always so magnificent when you obtain it. 4.) "I was quite surprised by the development & amount of > coverage (for lack better term) that Neville received. Will his > character be further developed in the next books, possibly as a late > bloomer?" I really enjoyed seeing Neville step up. It makes it pretty clear that he knows and has abilities that he has been too fearful to tap into. The evolution of Neville gives Harry a really worthy classmate/ally to fight the dark forces. For all their smarts and humor, Herminoe and Ron offer little help in the area of firepower. Neville looks as if (especially when he gets his OWN wand) he could be a burgeoning monster of power. How he reacts to that and how he is developed further will be VERY interesting. Suffice to say... he has been closer to the thick of things increasingly. To know that he is potentially the "one" also adds a WHOLE lot more complexity and intrigue to the entire thing. 5.) "I was also kind of suprised how little Draco appeared > compared to the previous books." Yeah, I have been SEVERELY dissapointed with Draco. Where once he seemed to be the future rival/antagonist to Harry, he has become like a fly. Something easily discarded, easily shrugged off. Even his threats seem like childplay as Harry really seems as if he could take Crabbe Goyle and Malfoy by himself whenever he liked. I beleive that we will see a major transformation with Draco in that his hatred overwelms him. Instead of being a catalyst in uniting the houses, I feel that Draco's actions will turn his house against him and allow the other slytherin students to see the danger of NOT uniting. 6.) "Also, what happened to Ron & > Hermione's prefect roles that started out strongly at the beginning, > but virtually faded into nothingness at the end?" I think that with the resemblance of order absolutely deterioating (through umbridge's actions) as the book went on, the idea of prefect (and its importance) became less and less meaningful. Prefects are supposed to help insure that people adhere to the rules. When the rules are COMPLETELY in the wrong... it doesn't make sense to enforce them! From watsola79 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 17:57:51 2003 From: watsola79 at yahoo.com (watsola79) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:57:51 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78144 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachna" wrote: > wrote: > > > I have my own opinions about McGonagall. She came to Hogwarts > > twenty-four years before Harry was born. I believe she is Harry's great- > > grandmother on James's side, and that, for some reason (perhaps James's > > father was killed), it became necessary for her to take on a job to help the > > family out when James was born. > > > > Now, I know this theory doesn't fall in line with the "James was > > well-off" theory, and it's a little far-fetched besides. What do you think? > > > > Elli > > > Rachna replied: > I agree in that I also think McGonagall is James's mother or > grandmother. When I read the message, I immediately remembered this: > > --- > Sheila McCleary: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? > > JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort > of restricted - you'll find out why. > > (Comic Relief, March 2001 Live Chat) > --- > It could very well be restricted because she is related to Harry. > As well, she is the transfiguration teacher and James was very good > at it - and one of the reasons he got to be one of the top students > could be because he had a professor at home. > > I know there is very little canon evidence, but I still like this > theory. Now me: I can't imagine this without picturing the scene where McGonagall and Dumbledore are at the Dursleys in PS/SS awaiting Harry's arrival. If McGonagall is a blood relative of Harry's, why wouldn't SHE have taken him in and thus sealed the "ancient magic" that protects Harry? Furthermore, it seems she would have known more about what was happening at the point Harry was brought to the Dursleys...as I recall she seemed pretty clueless and was asking DD for specifics. - Lana Lovegood From ratalman at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 18:03:07 2003 From: ratalman at yahoo.com (ratalman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:03:07 -0000 Subject: COS Burning Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78145 Bohcoo said: How did Professor McGonagall know it was Ginny who had been taken nto the Chamber? No one saw it happen or they would have known where the entrance to the Chamber was. Obviously no head count was done, or Ron and Harry would have seemed to be missing too as they were hiding in the teacher's cloak room. Ginger said: "So I made Ginny write her own farewell on the wall and come down here to wait." As McG correctly told the staff that it was Ginny in the chamber, I guess we can figure that Ginny signed the note. (Or wall, as the case may be) What I want to know now, is what did that note say? But, alas, we are not told. Now me: I think that the "farewell note" is the message that was written on the wall: "The Heir of Slytherin," said Professor McGonagall, who was very white, "left another message. Right underneath the first one. 'Her skeleton will lie in the Chamber forever.' "(p. 293, US paper) I doubt that she signed it, but who knows? The fact that the message says "Her skeleton" means that there could well have been a head count among the female students, and that Ginny was the only female that turned up missing. Ron and Harry, hidden in the cloak closet would not, therefore, be an issue. Robyn From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 20 17:41:59 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:41:59 -0000 Subject: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78146 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachna" > > > > > I think that makes more sense than Lupin stopping being a prefect > > or Dumbledore giving James Lupin's position. > > Is it possible that Lupin *requested* he not be Head Boy, either because of the toll his monthly transformations took on him (or simply because they took him away each month), or because he felt guilty about his choice to look the other way in the Sirius-prank-on- Snape situation?? If I'm remembering correctly, Lupin does seem to express real regret to Harry over his having stood by & done nothing when James & Sirius bullied Snape. Perhaps he felt true regret or remorse over the shrieking shack prank as well, and didn't feel he *deserved* to be Head Boy. [Would DD listen to such a request, though? I'm not sure.] Just a thought. Siriusly Snapey Susan From scooting2win at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 18:17:21 2003 From: scooting2win at yahoo.com (scooting2win) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:17:21 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78147 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > --- "James Redmont" wrote: > > I don't know about you guys, but when I was reading OP, I kept > > thinking that the reason Umbridge hates half-breeds so much is > > because she *is* one. Canon to back it up? She looks very odd > > (toad-like, short, stubby fingers, just weird-looking in general), > > then there's the extreme hate of half-breeds (Voldemort hates > > muggles and mudbloods...why? 'cause he *is* one). If she is a > > half-breed, then what is she half of? > > Half-breed? or what about " ... the Animagus transformation can go > horribly wrong -- one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch on > those attempting to do it." (PoA - Chap 18)? > > aussie you think she was trying to turn into a frog?! that's just sick! Lori From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 18:30:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:30:35 -0000 Subject: Neville and Luna joining the order In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "katie_wible" wrote: > Hi everyone. > > ... what ... will happen ... with Neville and Luna. > ... Will they... join the Order when they are of age, because > now they know too much, ... re:... Sirius Black, Kingsley > Shacklebolt ...Tonks, who ..., are secretly working for Dumbledore. > I personally think that they will (want to) join ..., but if they > change thier minds..., will they still be forced to join? > bboy_mn: I don't put Neville an Luna in the same catagory when analysing their future parts in the story. Neville will join Harry/Ron/Hermione as the fourth in their group in future stories; he will be at or near the forefront of the story. Luna, on the other hand, will remain a secondary character. I do think she has a purpose in the story, but nothing of the magnitude of Neville's purpose. So, I can't make one judgement that will cover them both. Will they join the Order? Probably not. While the book will conclude in their 17th year, we can reasonably assume that they will still be in school, which means they can't join the Order. When they are finally out of school, the story will be resolved and there will be no need to join the order. So, without a doubt, they will join the fight, but I don't seem them becoming formal members of the Order. That also included Harry, Ron, and Hermione. They will not formally join the Order, but I think Dumbledore has learn his lesson, and will do a better job of keeping Harry informed. As far as them knowing too much, I think they have estabilished that they are trustworth and loyal, and I don't think the Order has anything to worry about. > katie_wible: > > About the over the summer part, do you think that they will invite > Luna and Neville over to the old headquarters, or the new one, or > the Burrow? bboy_mn: I don't see anyone being brought to 12 Grimmauld Place unless there is a strategic necessity for it. So, while I can't say circumstance won't occur that will bring them there, I don't see it as likely. The Burrow is a possiblity, but I see Neville as being much more likely than Luna. Luna is a very interesting character, but Neville has a direct role in what will happen. The place I do want to see them go is Neville's house, say Neville invites Harry/Ron/Hermoine to a joint Harry/Neville birthday party. I want them to go there so that Neville's grandmother can start putting him down again, and then see the Trio set her straight in no uncertain terms. > > ...edited... > > Thats it. What does everyone else think about the different members > of the DA? bboy_mn: I think the DA and the Order will stay separate. Again, by the end of book 7, it will all be over with and there will be no need for anyone to join the Order. In the mean time, I see the DA Club functioning on it's own at the school. I also speculate that it is in the now officially sanctioned DA Club that the bringing together of the houses will play out. Just a thought bboy_mn From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Wed Aug 20 09:02:01 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 05:02:01 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Death clues References: <3F3BC3B8.5060201@lineone.net> Message-ID: <3F433909.7080500@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78149 christian wrote: > the second door on the right bore the words 'DANGEROUS' > DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES.' The name Dangerous Dai Llewellyn makes me think of Dangerous Dan McGrew. Does anyone think Rowling is a Robert Service fan? From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 18:46:57 2003 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:46:57 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory In-Reply-To: <200308191312.59588.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78150 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: (to Subrosax99) > What I wonder is what happens if one of them goes trough the Veil, > because he's already dead. > silmariel A Goldfeesh: You may have just found the point of having a vampire in the series. I've seen some posters ask "what's the point of having another outcast in the group at Hogwarts? The role of outcast has been filled by Lupin." This would give the role of vampire some purpose at least. So far as I see it, the only reason otherwise for Snape to be a vampire would be because it would be neat to have another mythological creature to show up in the flesh instead of mentioned in passing. However, as JKR has stated, I don't think anyone can be brought back from death. Plus, I wouldn't want to see it-it'd be too much of a "fooled you- he's not dead" scenario. The scenario being Snape able to rescue Sirius if he could be talked into it. A Goldfeesh (who seems to post on theories she doesn't truly believe in, remembers my first post involved Shipping of all things) From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 18:56:57 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:56:57 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78151 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > Abigail wrote: > [huge snip] > > I'm not pleased by the way JKR wrote Umbridge. The immediate > > reaction to OOP is that finally JKR has remembered her female > > readers. She gives us Tonks and Emmeline Vance, makes Molly > > significant in the Order, brings Ginny to the fore and makes > > McGonagal infinitely more interesting than she ever was before. > > But then there's Umbridge, and the readers who delight in the > > assumption that she was raped, because the stuck-up bitch > > deserved it. > "jsmgleaner" wrote: I had meant to point out that the many calls for Umbridge to receive more > punishment, particularly physical punishment, or the excitement about the > centaurs' possible revenge/justice can be read in another way, paying > attention to the overall ethics JKR is mapping out. My point is that JKR uses > Umbridge to place her readers in the position of acting like Barty Crouch, Sr., > throwing important ethical boundaries out the window in order to fight evil on > its own terms. Just as Crouch allows aurors to use the illegal curses and > throws suspects into prison without trial (Sirius), readers are suddenly forced > to confront their own reactions to an ostensibly bad character who has done > wrong but is taken down for it, but not within a justice system. ...the fact that she represents the kind of mundane evil that proliferates > during times of crises was very important, and I think it speaks back to the first > war with LV (through Crouch Sr.) and looks forward to Harry and others > realizing that people who are on the bad side don't always know they are (or > know they are helping it), which will make the ethics of the last two books > more mature. I hope. > > --jsmgleaner, who is fascinated by the Umbridge character, and not just > because of her visceral reaction as a teacher Laura: A few things: First, in my original post asking for ideas on punishments for Umbridge, I did make it clear that any punishment imposed should be *after* a public trial. If the WW didn't learn anything else last time around, I hope that they learned that in the realm of law, the ends do NOT justify the means. Corrupt procedure leads to corrupt results-just ask Sirius (if you can find him...sigh). Second, I think Fudge and Umbridge are quite aware that they're flirting with serious danger in their behavior. Their hubris lets them convince themselves that they can control the situation. But Fudge knows in his heart that LV is back and it's only a matter of time before things explode. If they hadn't realized it before, the escape of the DEs from Azkaban and the defection of the dementors is all the evidence anyone should need. I don't think they deserve the benefit of the doubt here-they chose to obstruct the good guys, which is tantamount to helping the bad guys. Third, you won't find a more dedicated feminist than me out there, but the reality is that some women are bad people. If the entire spectrum of human behavior doesn't apply to us, we aren't really human, are we? There are real-life examples of Umbridge out there- Phyllis Schafly, for instance, and her ilk, who act very "feminine" but are vicious and dangerous people. Women like that don't, in my opinion, like themselves for being women and they don't like other women who challenge them. JKR can't be accused of woman-bashing because she shows us a villain whose prototype can be found in real life-probably more often than the Bellatrix in-your-face-Cruella- Deville type. Having said all that, I am wierded out by the rape stuff too. That seems so *not* JKR to me. And I also agree that the centaurs wouldn't lower themselves-well, you know what I mean. From jendiangelo at cox.net Wed Aug 20 19:14:35 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:14:35 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's death and Arthur (was: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: <3F434FB6.6000306@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78152 Margaret wrote: It seems(at least to me) very likely he will be killed by Voldemort himself. digger adds: I agree, Margaret, that DD will die at the hand of Voldemort during battle. This will (imho) mark the 'darkest just before dawn' moment for the OotP. Harry will also 'inherit' Fawkes when DD passes on. Now me (AccioSirius Jen): I'm really hoping that Dumbledore doesn't die - but if he has to, I agree with digger that it will be "darkest just before dawn" for the good guys. However, I keep getting a nagging feeling that I've been trying to shake off that his death will be the result of betrayal by someone he trusts, like Snape (I like Snape, that's why it's so hard for me to admit that I feel that way! And I'm really hoping that JKR gives us a solid reason why DD trusts him in Book Six, not Seven, so I can trust him completely as well!) A couple of other people have talked about Arthur's role if Dumbledore were to die in this thread. I, personally, would like some of Arthur's shining moments to include taking Lucius Malfoy down a few pegs (perhaps by becoming MoM and having the respect of the WW - that would really burn Lucius, who's now known as a "scumbag".) But am I the only one who would like to see Arthur and Lucius paired against each other in battle? Just my rambling thoughts, AccioSirius Jen (who also wonders how Hedwig would react if Harry inherited Fawkes) From ajlboston at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 19:19:59 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:19:59 -0000 Subject: Snape's warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78153 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "flavia_pozzatti" wrote: > > I'm sorry if this subject has been discussed before, but I'm new here > and the search engine hasn't helped me. > > As I was rereading the final chapters of OoP, a question crossed my > mind. After checking whether Sirius was OK, how long did it take > Snape to realise that Harry and the others had gone to the MoM? > > I can't help thinking that if Snape had warned the members of the > Order sooner, the outcome of the battle could have been different. > Someone pointed this out (with such a waste of time, with Harry's not returning from the forest, etc.) as support that Snape could be a double agent. Someone ELSE had ointed out that perhaps Ron's supposed seer abilities might have been correct about Snape this time. So you are not the first to wonder. A.J. From jennyemike3 at cox.net Wed Aug 20 19:27:25 2003 From: jennyemike3 at cox.net (klra2ra) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:27:25 -0000 Subject: Harry and free agency (was : Harry and Christ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78154 > Geoff Bannister wrote: Basically, he was born "Harry Potter, the one who will > > destroy LV", and nothing he can do will change that. I hate it, > > because it completely goes against what DD said. Harry is the > > Saviour, he is the result of other people's choices and his own > > abilities (some of which are not even his own, but LV's anyway), > > not the result of his own choices. I sort of disagree. Harry's part in the prophecy was determined by the choices of others but, he does have the choice to join Lord Thingy and therefore save his life and not require him to kill. But Harry would never choose to do that and as DD said, it is our choices that makes us what we are. We all are a product at least in some part of choices of others. We are here because of the choices of our parents, we have different life experiences in school, etc because of the choices of the other students at the school (determining how popular we are, etc.) It therefore falls to us (or Harry) to make choices based upon the options given to us. Harry wasn't given the unlimited option of Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw, Slytherin or Gryffindor . It was Slytherin and Gryffindor that were the choices available to him. klra2ra From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 19:03:09 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:03:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820190309.46489.qmail@web20706.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78155 Maybe James was never Head Boy. I mean, most people assume that Hagrid was exaggerating when he said that all the dark wizards were from slytherin, so he could've also been exaggerating when he said that Lily and James were Head Girl and Boy. You know, when people say they were at the top of the class it doesn't necessarily mean they were literally number one, it just means they're doing well. I think that makes more sense than Lupin stopping being a prefect or Dumbledore giving James Lupin's position. Rachna My reply: Personally I think headboy is given to the top male student in the class. Thus, that is why James was headboy. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From melclaros at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 19:33:04 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:33:04 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<"James Redmont" wrote:...Also, and excuse me if you think it's > crude (we're all grown-ups here, right?), when Umbridge gets back > from the Centaurs, I kept thinking (maybe I'm perverted, I don't > think so, yet this still occurred to me) that she had been, um, > sexually abused by the centaurs as a punishment...ok, raped...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > I thought it was pretty obvious that's exactly what happened, and > very mean it was of Ron to make those "clop-clop" noises...reminds me Me: Same here. I thought the same thing exactly and didn't know whether to be more shocked at JK for the implicatoin or at myself for immediately jumping to such a conclusion. Then her condition when she was brought back...I'm sure that's just what happened to her. EW! Melpomene, not quite as ashamed of herself as she was. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 20 19:02:01 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:02:01 +0100 Subject: An alternative reading Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78157 Over the past few weeks I've attempted to shuffle the HP accepted canon around a bit to see if it can be fitted together differently to the standard pattern. In two instances I've switched the viewpoint, reversing the conclusions that are usually drawn. If correct, these alterations could also, in a sort of cascade effect, alter perceptions on two further episodes in the time line. I know I'm going to cop a lot of flak for this, but who cares? The only people who are never wrong are those that don't do anything. Right; the first review (literally) was the Lily-Snape AGGIE (77800), reversing the opinion that Snape had a thing for Lily. It is just as possible, with more circumstantial evidence, that Lily had a thing for Snape and was rejected. James was as jealous as hell about this, but the rejection meant that he caught Lily on the rebound. But his hatred of Snape remained. Second; a TBAY (78104) which postulates that James did not save Snapes life at the Shrieking Shack out of altruistic motives. Sirius had lured Snape into the tunnel. Maybe he thought he was doing James a favour. Get rid of any competition for Lily. They knew that Snape was well versed in curses when he arrived at Hogwarts (this is canon) and had presumably learned more since. It is possible that James thought that Snape could deal with a werewolf, even kill it. James got Snape out to save Lupin from Snape's curses. James and Sirius were on a hiding to nothing. If Snape was killed, no matter how personally satisfying that would be, James and Sirius would be blamed; if Snape killed Lupin, when he was in wolf form, Snape would be treated as a hero and they would have lost a friend through their own stupidity. Only option, get Snape out of there and as a bonus claim that he was saving Snapes life. Sirius would have to take his chances for goading Snape into the tunnel. They got away with it. James gets the kudos and Sirius doesn't seem to be punished for his actions. First repercussion: James started having doubts about Sirius. Not about his friendship; about his judgement. He showed a tendency to rashness, downright dangerous at times, to not thinking things through. Could he be trusted with anything critical? These doubts might start to show, so that even Sirius was aware of them, making him uncomfortable. Hence the decision to change Secret Keeper with all the fallout from that brilliant idea. Sirius strikes again in the planning department. Second repercussion: Lupin does some thinking. Sirius put me at risk - maybe. Sirius was certainly responsible for Snape finding out that I am a werewolf. Snape is responsible for me losing my job at Hogwarts, for telling the pupils parents, for me being unemployable. Ultimately, it's all Sirius' fault, yet he's the one getting all the sympathy. This pisses me off. What shall I do about it? Well, the opportunity arises during the fight at the MoM. Lupins actions (or inaction) have caused comment on the site before. Perhaps he took the revenge option - zap! and Sirius falls through the curtain. Maybe that particular finale was planned, most likely not. But a free shot at Sirius could have had great appeal for some-one feeling hard done by. Could even give one thoughts of betrayal? Kneasy From sylviablundell at aol.com Wed Aug 20 19:51:04 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:51:04 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78158 I am surprisedthat Mrs. Weasley is still using this, considering that its author has not only been shown to be a complete fraud but has also placed her son in considerable danger. I would have expected her to have binned it, together with her back-numbers of Witch Weekly. Perhaps, though, he is only a fraud as a wizard, but is really hot at dealing with Doxys. From shaman at mac.com Wed Aug 20 19:53:51 2003 From: shaman at mac.com (Charlie Moody) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:53:51 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Canon In-Reply-To: <000c01c36707$bdde4b80$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> Message-ID: <05CD6F00-D348-11D7-8E48-000393C324F6@mac.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78160 On Wednesday, August 20, 2003, at 06:41 AM, The Crashing Boar wrote: > > Me (Charlie): > You include public utterances of JKR in canon; I do not. Any > interview with JKR is not her authoritative work, but the work of the > interviewer - and JKR's wicked characterisation of Rita Skeeter > shows directly, I think, how she feels about that line of work. Then Dawn: > Actually, I agree with you. Personally, I rarely take interviews > into > account when mulling over theories, and wouldn't consider them > canon, but commentary. However, I've noticed a lot of people on > this list consider anything apparently written or said by JKR to be > 'canon', which is why I put it into a message designed to be a friendly > shove in the right direction, and so that reading those posts might > make more sense. > > Dawn (who would have probably jumped on her reply if she hadn't > made it in the first place :)) Then me again (Charlie): Dawn, I had no intent to land on your post, but on reflecting, I guess I *did*. Would it surprise you to know that I worried over how that first line (above) would come across before I posted? Maybe it was the late hour, but I just couldn't work out how to word it better. What I would have said today is more like: "The definition you give includes...." I don't know if that would have made it better, but please know that I was just reflecting on the issue, not chasing you around about anything. Thing was, your post got me thinking, and that set me to pawing thru the archives, and when I came back to your post to respond, your definition seemed to explicitly include JKR extemporaneae, and I just wanted to make a case for the stricter definition. My 'direct' tone aside, in a high-traffic list like this (*are* there any high traffic lists like this one?), keeping things going means keeping things focused, and agreement on what is canon is crucial, 'cause that IS the focus. -- Charlie, who wants so badly to make a point sometimes, that he loses what grace he has.... From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 18:52:10 2003 From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (Anna) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:52:10 -0000 Subject: Wizard Fashion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78161 Okay, I know this is not a very "adult" question, but it has been annoying me for quite some time now, so here goes. From all indications, Remus Lupin is a pretty good wizard, eh? So, I have always wondered why he can't swish and flick himself some new robes - or at least a better, less noticeable patch job. Am I missing something? Maybe Lupin just doesn't care about such superficial things. -Anna From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Wed Aug 20 18:59:43 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:59:43 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78162 --- carla wrote: > While a theory of Umbridge being sexually tortured > would certainly be a horrifying possiblilty, I have > a different opinion about what happened late in the > forest that night. > > ..... > > I don't accept a rape scenario, simply because it > would be too vulgar and "human" for the centaurs' > taste. I agree, and have a couple of things to add on your point. Although I can see why one might read the Umbridge's re-entry scene as the aftermath of a sexual assault (and although this thread raises some terrific points for discussion), I submit that such a reading is at odds both with the centaurs' concept of honor and with their particular brand of wildness. Centaurs are violent and unconstrained by the conventions of humans, but not sexually rapacious (assuming here, that, as appears to be the case with other mythical creatures that JKR has adopted into the Potterverse -- such as werewolves and merpeople -- she intends the centaurs to correspond to the common myths surrounding such creatures). Even if they have little respect for the humans who enter the forest -- perhaps *because* they have so little respect for them -- the centaurs are *unlike* we the readers, in that they have no reason to wish to abuse or disempower Umbridge. The factors that make this thread such an interesting psycho-moral investigation from the reader's perspective are simply irrelevant to the centaurs. Conversely, an assault would contradict much of what we have heard about the centaurs' moral principles. It would be an act of abuse, inconsistent with the Centaurs' rejection of evil (and good). It would be a supreme act of interference with the affairs of humans. It would treat Umbridge as a means rather than an end, just what the centaurs blamed Hermione for doing to them. I can believe that the centaurs would imprison Umbridge, and would use physical force if she tried to escape; I can even believe that they might kill her out of random violence; but rape strikes a chord that is out of tune with the rest of their behavior. -- Matt From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 19:36:22 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 12:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Just a couple of wild thoughts on the Dursley's and Lupin. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820193622.56446.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78163 I was sitting here thinking about Petunia and the Dursley's last night. We know that Harry is safe as long as he goes to their house once a year. Petunia's agreement to continue the bond that Lily set on Harry has managed to keep him safe all these years. But that got me thinking, Harry is safe with them. But what if Voldemort killed them? Granted it's looking less and less likely to happen, but I could see Pettigrew showing up at Privet Drive this summer. What do you guys think? And thinking about Remus last night got me thinking about ways that the dark side might try to take advantage of him. Does anyone else think that Pettigrew is likely to play the "James and Sirius they never really included us" card? "We were always the outsiders of the group?" There really is nothing cannon to suggest that at any point Sirius and James were not the closest out of the two. In light of what JKR has said about Lupin, liking to be liked, this whole idea scares me very much. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 20:04:53 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:04:53 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "basilhummus" wrote: > Since the centaurs are able to read the stars and "know" the future, > I theorize that they may have held her captive and exposed her to > the horrifying details of the war to come, its fallout, and perhaps > the events that culminate in her own death. > Me: You know, that's a great idea. Since her big thing was having Harry write "I must not tell lies", realizing that not only was he not lying, but that she will come to a sticky end because of her actions would be perfect. If Umbridge was raped, it would also have a sort of justice, like I said in my original post, if she had a half-breed child, since she loaths half-breeds so much. > > I don't accept a rape scenario, simply because it would be too > vulgar and "human" for the centaurs' taste. > > > ~Carla Me: You'd think they wouldn't be willing to kill people either, would you? Honestly I think it's one of those things where you draw your own conclusion...if she doesn't tell us what happened, we can only guess and try to figure out the best scenario. James Redmont From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 20 20:02:59 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:02:59 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests References: Message-ID: <3F43D3F3.000001.27485@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 78165 sylviablundell2001 - I am surprisedthat Mrs. Weasley is still using this, considering that its author has not only been shown to be a complete fraud but has also placed her son in considerable danger. I would have expected her to have binned it, together with her back-numbers of Witch Weekly. Perhaps, though, he is only a fraud as a wizard, but is really hot at dealing with Doxys. Me - Well first of all since she would know the complete story of GL (presumably) she would know that his books are only inaccurate in as far as they portray *him* as the protagonist when actually the events happened to other people. Secondly, the title of this book sounds very much to me like some enterprising book publisher with a poorly selling guide to household pests on his hands got Gilderoy to put his name to it, perhaps write a prologue and have his picture stuck on the front. I can't see this as being the sort of book GL would actually bother writing himself - doesn't fit with all the vampire hunting style of adventure books we saw as the DADA curriculum in CoS. In either case the book is probably perfectly accurate and Molly seems the practical type who wouldn't get rid of a useful tool just because it has the picture of a self-aggrandising, malicious idiot on the cover - maybe she s ditched the dustjacket though :) K From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 20:27:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:27:06 -0000 Subject: Wizard Fashion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anna" wrote: > Okay, I know this is not a very "adult" question, but it has been > annoying me for quite some time now, so here goes. From all > indications, Remus Lupin is a pretty good wizard, eh? So, I have > always wondered why he can't swish and flick himself some new robes - > or at least a better, less noticeable patch job. Am I missing > something? Maybe Lupin just doesn't care about such superficial > things. -Anna bboy_mn: We are in the realm of conjuring, and this has been discussed before, although not exactly in the light that you are presenting it. Here is the basic rule of magic- You can't create something out of nothing. JKR has set definite limits to magic, to keep magic out of the realm of miracles, or divine acts. She has specifically said in interviews that things that are conjured or created solely by magic are not permanent. If you conjured up hamburgers with magic and ate nothing else, you would starve to death. Because just as the hamburger was made from nothing, it would eventually return to nothing. So, repairing spells can fix something that is broke, like a broke drinking glass or a vase, if all the original material is still there. But it can't repair a worn robe because some of the material has been lost. There is no cloth thread to repair the threadbare and worn away spots on the robe. Now a sewing charm of some sort could be used to make thread magically sew itself over a hole, but you are supplying that needed material. One thing I really like about the concept of something from nothing eventual goes back to nothing, is that it means you could eat all the ice cream you want, and you would never get fat. Conjure a huge bowl of your favorite ice cream and eat to your hearts content, and in time the ice cream vanishes, and you are left with FULL pleasure and little or no calories. ...mmmmmm..... yummy.... Note: if you use the Search feature and search for 'conjure' or 'conjuring', you will find some very interesting post on the subject. To narrow it down, because this is a subject I like to talk about, you could search for 'bboy_mn conjure', and that will lead you to some threads. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 20:34:44 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:34:44 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78167 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > HOWEVER - the idea that Harry will destroy Voldemort through love and > that love is a force within him is NOT a universal theme. It is very > Christian. It has nothing at all to do with my beliefs. First I'd like to say I have a degree in history, concentrated in the study of Asian cultures and Hindu/Buddhist/Jain religions. Now, if you know anything about eastern religion, it is centered around compassion, which is how they describe the type of love Christ had for humanity. Buddhists believe those who are very near to enlightenment can choose to stay behind and help others (bodhisattvas)...why? Compassion. Hindus believe in the universal world spirit, which *is* a force, and is contained in everyone. Dharma - the law, how one should behave...doing what is right, not what is easy. I could easily write a paper on how Harry Potter's life is a learning tool for Hindus. It doesn't even matter if she wrote it purposefully from a Christian view. The whole point of my post was to point out that most religions are nearly the same when it comes to their philosophy, and "love" (which is a word, by the way, and not a v. specific one) is the center of most. Benevolence, compassion, love, dharma, right thinking...just because you're familiar with the Christ story, don't think it's the *only* story like that. A good example? Read the Ramayana. James Redmont, who believes westerners will think Christianity is the quintessential religion, no matter how much evidence they are shown to the contrary From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 20:36:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:36:25 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > I am surprisedthat Mrs. Weasley is still using this, considering that > its author has not only been shown to be a complete fraud .... bboy_mn: Keep in mind that Lockhart thoroughly researched all his books, so the books were never fake. Everything that happened really did happen, Lockhart just gave himself credit for all those things. The household pest books would simply be a matter of researching and documenting the information, then taking this standard information, he would dress it up with stories and anicdotes of his adventures to give it that certain 'Lockhart style'. Since the book was well research, it was probably still a good reference book. Just a thought. bboy_mn From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Aug 20 20:14:46 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:14:46 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] small thought on Mark Evans References: Message-ID: <005701c3675c$39e1d720$49f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78169 A.J. : > So I was pondering the recent thread that the thin thestral-seeing > Slytherin boy could be Snape's son, and I wondered what name he would > have, and remembered the Severus Snape =Perseus Evans Anagram > threads, and thought of Mark Evans whom Dudley had beaten up, and > recalled that people were theorizing that Mark might be a cousin > related to Lily and show up at Hogwarts next year when he turns 11. > But I thought, well if he is a magical child, why would he get so > beaten up by Dudley-- surely in that case he would have displayed > some magical surprise defense, similar to Harry's ending up on the > roof when he was running from Dudley as a child. (Getting pulverized > by the buff junior heavyweight champ teenager surely would qualify as > a reason for his hidden abilities to kick in, would it not?) Me: My theor ist that a child is not always showing it's magical powers before going to Hogwarts. In other ways I think that Harry would have done it much more often than is implicated in book one and also by showing the legillimency-scene in book five when Snape saw Harry struggeling with Dudley and his fellows who are trying to make him stand in a toilett... > (Then I wondered why Harry doesn't get cited by the MoM for the jolt > that shocked Vernon when he was strangling Harry in OOP Chap 1, which > some people here thought was part of the magical protection on Privet > Drive...) Me: Well I think it is a diffrent kind of magic and the ministry can detect that difference. If not so he would have been receiving his first warning long before joining school and other muggle borns, too. I am sure this was this uncontrolled undangerous kind of pre-tought magic that little children show, too. Yours Finchen From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Aug 20 20:36:02 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:36:02 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: School! Snape the bully? (kind of about to be long]e than James Was?) References: Message-ID: <005801c3675c$3abddf40$49f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78170 Laura : Hmm. It sounds like bullies have changed since my high school days, lo those many years ago. I don't think of bullies as smart or likeable, and James and Sirius were both. Me: I thnk they really have or there are just several types of bullies. But BTW I am reading a book about bullying in school (students bullying students). It suggests some reasons: - seeing it is "funny" (e.g. at adults or older peaople in general) - getting respect and advantages by doing so - trying to get more selfesteem (one reason could be no real "backup" from its parents -> Sirius was in such a situation) - children often get reinforced in bullying others by not being punished or even praised for it So there are many reasons and some I think do clearly fit into what the books one to five tell us and what both of us experienced. Sirius had no good relationship whith his family so he might have tried to get rid of the bad feeling that stayed by bullying somebody who was equal but reachable for him. This also might have given him the advantage that he could just let out his anger and all the bad feelings about his family. Seeing it's "funny" or OK could be relating to what he saw in his early childhood at home (treating "rubbish" (= house elves) badly and as far as I could see he regards Snape very equal to something like that for he reminds him of his family). As far as we were told there was no punishment that was so bad that it had to be mentioned. He only said to Harry that he wouldn't be proud of it (so finally he grew up!). But this could have been reinforcing him when he was a student... So now the future teacher had her go on the topic. Sorry if I bored you with the length of my post.... Yours Finchen From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Aug 20 20:40:49 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:40:49 +0200 Subject: Where is Snape???? References: Message-ID: <005901c3675c$3b708d70$49f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78171 Hi everyone! I wonder if it has been discussed before (as many others I couldn't manage to read all postings): Rereading OoP I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a photograph of the original Order at the "prefect party". He showed Harry everybody on it... but there was no Snape! Did he not join yet? Was he already working for DD but was not in it officially, because of the traitor within the Order? Had he already changed sides? What do you think? Yours Finchen From jendiangelo at cox.net Wed Aug 20 20:52:20 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:52:20 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78172 bboy_mn wrote: Keep in mind that Lockhart thoroughly researched all his books, so the books were never fake. Everything that happened really did happen, Lockhart just gave himself credit for all those things. Since the book was well research, it was probably still a good reference book. Now me: In addition to what bboy_mn wrote, given the Weasley's financial situation, I can't see Mrs. Weasley chucking anything out that is still useful. AccioSirius Jen From fc26det at aol.com Wed Aug 20 20:55:03 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:55:03 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78173 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > Abigail wrote: > > [huge snip] > > > I'm not pleased by the way JKR wrote Umbridge. > > > "jsmgleaner" wrote: > > I had meant to point out that the many calls for Umbridge to > receive more > > punishment, particularly physical punishment, or the excitement > about the > > centaurs' possible revenge/justice can be read in another way, > paying > > attention to the overall ethics JKR is mapping out. > > > > Laura: > > A few things: > > First, in my original post asking for ideas on punishments for > Umbridge, I did make it clear that any punishment imposed should be > *after* a public trial. If the WW didn't learn anything else last > time around, I hope that they learned that in the realm of law, the > ends do NOT justify the means. Corrupt procedure leads to corrupt > results-just ask Sirius (if you can find him...sigh). > > Having said all that, I am wierded out by the rape stuff too. That > seems so *not* JKR to me. And I also agree that the centaurs > wouldn't lower themselves-well, you know what I mean. Sorry for the huge snips...With my line of work (investigator of rapes, and child abuse) I immediately thought of the rape aspect also. I discounted it tho as it really didn't seem to fit the "feel" of the books. I also considered that Hermoine says" Madame Pomfrey says she's just in shock." The paragraph right before that says "Nobody really knew what was wrong with her either." I do think that even in the WW the healers would check for signs of assault just as they do in the muggle world. I am not saying that all of our first instincts are wrong....but ya know what they say about wise 'ol Hermoine!! Susan From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Aug 20 21:03:05 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:03:05 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Theory: Petunia/"That Boy" References: Message-ID: <00b201c36760$984efaa0$49f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78174 > n_longbottom01: The "Remember my last" howler > message would seem to indicate, though, that Petunia did, at one > point have some non-Daily-Prophet contact with at some point in the > past. > Me: Yes she had and DD tells you when. In the scene when he tells Harry about the prophecy and why he has to stay at the Dursley's he agrees that the howler referrs to the letter that was given with baby-Harry to Petunia (book one, chapter one). Of course it is not impossible that he returned to talk to her but in book five DD says the howler meant this letter. Yours Finchen From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Aug 20 20:52:17 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:52:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question References: Message-ID: <00b001c36760$97067510$49f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78175 Bohcoo: > > POA, ch. 22, page 420, American Edition: > > "'And the dememtors?' said Dumbledore. 'They'll be removed from the > school, I trust?' > > 'Oh yes, they'll have to go,' said Fudge, running his fingers > distractedly through his hair. 'Never dreamed they'd attempt to > administer the Kiss on an innocent boy... Completely out of > control... no, I'll have them packed off back to Azkaban tonight.'" > > > How did Fudge know the dementors tried to Kiss Harry? > > > Harry was the only one who knew about the Kiss, the others having > passed out, been knocked out, or fled. He did not tell Dumbledore > about the Kiss and the only other person conscious at the lakeside at > any time was Snape. But: > > > POA, ch. 21, page 387, American Edition, Fudge speaking to Snape: > > "'What amazes me most is the behavior of the dementors... you've > really no idea what made them retreat, Snape?' > > 'No, Minister...by the time I had come 'round they were heading back > to their positions at the entrances...'" > Me: A totally weird idea. What if there was more than one person at Hogwarts that owned a time turner? I tought about it not only because of that... another hint (if you like to call it like that) is the just in time interruption of getting out of Haggrids hutt when Harry "steals" Buckbeak... just like it would have been planned. Also the idea of DD's freeing Sirius and the hippogriff came so prompt ... a bit too much for my taste... Yours Finchen From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Aug 20 20:57:17 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:57:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupins name. Just a silly thought. References: Message-ID: <00b101c36760$97b18220$49f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78176 > Mandy: > OK this is just a silly pedantic thought. 'Cause I slightly obsessed > with HP right now. > > Do you think Remus Lupin named himself after her was bitten or his > parents gave him that name from birth? > If they did they were tempting fate a bit weren't they. I mean after > the got bit a few years later, his mum and dad must have > thought "Damn, why didn't we just name him Tom, Dick or Harry!" > .Me: I just think it's a telling name (stylistic feature of literature). BTW who would name their son "the white" (=Albus) or something that has to do with Lucifer (=Lucous) or dragon (=Draco, it's Latin!). Maybe it was just some kind of a weird kind of taste for Lupin was of course the childs last name... BTW JKR uses some funny last names (Dumbledore = bumblebee in old English). Yours Finchen From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 21:21:57 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:21:57 -0000 Subject: Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests In-Reply-To: <3F43D3F3.000001.27485@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kathryn Cawte" wrote: > > sylviablundell2001 - > > I am surprisedthat Mrs. Weasley is still using this, considering that > its author has not only been shown to be a complete fraud but has > also placed her son in considerable danger. I would have expected > her to have binned it, together with her back-numbers of Witch > Weekly. Perhaps, though, he is only a fraud as a wizard, but is > really hot at dealing with Doxys. > > K replied - > > Well first of all since she would know the complete story of GL (presumably) she would know that his books are only inaccurate in as far as they portray *him* as the protagonist when actually the events happened to other people. Secondly, the title of this book sounds very much to me like some enterprising book publisher with a poorly selling guide to household pests on his hands got Gilderoy to put his name to it, perhaps write a prologue and have his picture stuck on the front. I can't see this as being the sort > of book GL would actually bother writing himself - doesn't fit with all the vampire hunting style of adventure books we saw as the DADA curriculum in CoS. In either case the book is probably perfectly accurate and Molly seems the practical type who wouldn't get rid of a useful tool just because it has the picture of a self- aggrandising, malicious idiot on the cover - maybe she ditched the dustjacket though :) > K *****\(@@)/***** Don't forget Gilderoy habitually stole his information from others so the contents are probably true and very usable - He just took credit for it. Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 21:26:31 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 14:26:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030820212631.92308.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78178 --- James Redmont wrote: > If Umbridge was raped, it would also have a sort of > justice, like I > said in my original post, if she had a half-breed > child, since she > loaths half-breeds so much. Rape is never justice. And that child would never be born. If, by some miracle, it was born, it would be subject to worse treatment than Harry ever was if kept by Umbridge. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 20 21:00:28 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:00:28 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where is Snape???? References: <005901c3675c$3b708d70$49f3a986@caro> Message-ID: <3F43E16C.000001.05697@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 78179 Finchen Rereading OoP I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a photograph of the original Order at the "prefect party". He showed Harry everybody on it... but there was no Snape! Did he not join yet? Was he already working for DD but was not in it officially, because of the traitor within the Order? Had he already changed sides? What do you think? K - I think that it is possible he wasn't a member yet, but even if he was it is a monumentally stupid idea to take a picture of your spy surrounded by what pretty much amounts to Voldemort's Ten Most Wanted list, so he wouldn't be in the picture even if he was already in the Order. Plus of course to actually be in the picture he'd have to willingly put himself in close proximity to the others in the pic - several of whom he dislikes intensely. K From rayheuer3 at aol.com Wed Aug 20 21:35:07 2003 From: rayheuer3 at aol.com (rayheuer3 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:35:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) Message-ID: <174.1f48a726.2c75438b@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78180 rsteph1981 at yahoo.com writes: > Rape is never justice. And that child would never be > born. If, by some miracle, it was born, it would be > subject to worse treatment than Harry ever was if kept > by Umbridge. As I understand biology (which may NOT be how the WW understands biology), I have to agree. In one episode of "Hercules: The Incredible Journey", Lucy Lawless, who would later play Xena, played a woman who shared a forbidden love with a centaur. When the child was revealed to be a centaur, my wife couldn't say anything except "ow" for about 20 minutes. -- Ray [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Wed Aug 20 21:53:37 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 17:53:37 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where is Snape???? Message-ID: <19b.19653a4a.2c7547e1@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78181 In a message dated 8/20/2003 4:55:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, shokoono at gmx.de writes: > Rereading OoP I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a photograph of > the > original Order at the "prefect party". He showed Harry everybody on it... > but there was no Snape! > Did he not join yet? Was he already working for DD but was not in it > officially, because of the traitor within the Order? Had he already changed > sides? If you had a spy in the enemy's camp, AND you suspected there was one in your Order as well, would you endanger that spy by including him in such a gathering? Would that spy so endanger himself? I think not... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydpad at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 21:53:41 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:53:41 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78182 Matt wrote > Centaurs are violent and unconstrained by the > conventions of humans, but not sexually rapacious > (assuming here, that, as appears to be the case > with other mythical creatures that JKR has adopted > into the Potterverse -- such as werewolves and > merpeople -- she intends the centaurs to correspond > to the common myths surrounding such creatures). > Even if they have little respect for the humans who > enter the forest -- perhaps *because* they have so > little respect for them -- the centaurs are *unlike* > we the readers, in that they have no reason to wish > to abuse or disempower Umbridge. The factors that > make this thread such an interesting psycho-moral > investigation from the reader's perspective are > simply irrelevant to the centaurs. >From what I remember of my mythology, weren't centaurs commonly seen as strongly sexual creatures? Just a quick google to check, came up with this: http://members.aol.com/JWFvase2/page/dionysian.html, and this: http://www.classicsunveiled.com/mythnet/html/centaur.html ( I knew I'd seen images of centaurs carting off screaming women somewhere). Whatever happened in the woods, I think JKR intended to leave it VERY ambiguous. I'm not sure if functionally it's about justice or revenge though. It may be more generally ironic, that a character who is so obsessed with control becomes swept away by an animal frenzy. Like whats his face who was torn to pieces by the Bacchae. Uh.. Pentheus, that's the guy (thank god for google, makes me sound so clever... synopsis of the Bacchae here: http://www.cnr.edu/home/bmcmanus/bacchaebg.html ) > Conversely, an assault would contradict much of what > we have heard about the centaurs' moral principles. > It would be an act of abuse, inconsistent with the > Centaurs' rejection of evil (and good). It would be > a supreme act of interference with the affairs of > humans. It would treat Umbridge as a means rather > than an end, just what the centaurs blamed Hermione > for doing to them. I'm not so sure. If they'd be okay with executing her, why not other violations? Umbridge, as they saw it, had left the circle of her civilization and entered into their domain. I think they would feel (rather like the spiders) that anyone in the Forest is in a realm of chaos, so to speak, where it is the law of nature, not humanity, that applies. > > I can believe that the centaurs would imprison > Umbridge, and would use physical force if she tried > to escape; I can even believe that they might kill > her out of random violence; but rape strikes a > chord that is out of tune with the rest of their > behavior. Possibly, I'd just like to know a bit more about their behaviour, before I'd trust myself with them. Sydney From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 21:55:10 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:55:10 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78183 Elli wrote: I believe she is Harry's great-grandmother on James's side Rachna replied: I agree in that I also think McGonagall is James's mother or grandmother. When I read the message, I immediately remembered this: Sheila McCleary: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is sort of restricted - you'll find out why. (Comic Relief, March 2001 Live Chat) It could very well be restricted because she is related to Harry. Lana Lovegood: I can't imagine this without picturing the scene where McGonagall and Dumbledore are at the Dursleys in PS/SS awaiting Harry's arrival. If McGonagall is a blood relative of Harry's, why wouldn't SHE have taken him in and thus sealed the "ancient magic" that protects Harry? Furthermore, it seems she would have known more about what was happening at the point Harry was brought to the Dursleys...as I recall she seemed pretty clueless and was asking DD for specifics. Me (Barb): I agree that it is highly unlikely that McGonagall is Harry's relative, but not the for reason cited above. We learn in the fifth book that it was Petunia's relationship to Lily, not just to Harry, that was important, since it was Lily's blood that had protected Harry. A relative on his father's side wouldn't have had the same effect, according to OotP. The thing in the first chapter of the first book that strongly implies that McGonagall is not related to Harry is this passage: ------------------------ 'Hagrid's late. I suppose it was he who told you I'd be here, by the way?' 'Yes,' said Professor McGonagall. 'And I don't suppose you're going to tell me WHY you're here, of all places?' 'I've come to bring Harry to his aunt and uncle. They're the only family he has left now.' 'You don't mean - you CAN'T mean the people who live HERE?' cried Professor McGonagall, jumping to her feet and pointing at number four. ------------------------- At this point, Dumbledore does not reveal to McGonagall the basis of the ancient magic that will protect Harry (Petunia/Lily). If she truly were a relative of Harry's, she would have jumped in here and corrected Dumbledore's statement and say that SHE was family to him, that the Dursleys were NOT all he had left. But she didn't do that. Instead she argues about how famous Harry will be, causing Dumbledore to respond that because of that it would be better for him to grow up away from the sort of attention that would likely bring him. Her 'fame' argument seems like grasping at straws, frankly, and if she had a much better argument, like being his great- grandmother, I don't doubt that she would have used it. I believe that JKR's answer about the marital status of professors is completely irrelevant here, and that the information is restricted for reasons having nothing to do with Harry. There is absolutely nothing in the books to indicate that McGonagall is related to Harry and, indeed, the above passage from the first book strongly implies quite the opposite. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:00:46 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:00:46 -0000 Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David Paterson" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" wrote: > > > > Really, I think the socks are just part of the humor. Socks are > > funny. <> I don't believe that the socks keep making guest appearances except as a source of giggles. After all, Dobby said he needs to be given clothes, but who'd have thought it would be a single, icky, soggy sock that would do it? JKR is just having fun. > > > > Peg > > Or, look at the Lexicon for another take on Socks in Harry Potter: > > http://www.hp-lexicon.org/socks.html > > David P. *****\(@@)/***** As a long time knitter I have to say there is a lot more to socks that there appears (and not just the knitting part)! JKR wouldn't mention such a mundane item unless there was something in it. I think the socks are important in some way. Also I think the sweaters Molly knits for the Weasleys (and Harry) are important too. Maybe she knits some sort of protection into them. Also maybe that is another reason she was so upset that Percy returned his sweater - possibly he is without an important protection now. Dudemom_2000 who has knitted every one of the sweaters in the books and was vastly disappointed the sweater in OoP was not described but is steadily knitting the socks now..... *****\(@@)/***** From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Aug 20 21:13:07 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:13:07 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_significance_in_McGonagall's_years?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?_of_service=3F?= References: Message-ID: <00b301c36760$98e01710$49f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78185 > This turned out to be a longish post. > > I've checked the archives, and I can't find anything on this subject. Please > excuse me if I'm wrong on that. > > Umbridge had many uses in OOP, and I think one was to provide information > about other characters. One way she did that was by interviewing the > teachers while she was high inquisitor. > > We find out that Snape began teaching fourteen years ago and that he keeps > applying for the DADA position. None of that is very enlightening. We know he > wants that job, and we can assume that he took the potions position upon the > disappearance of Voldemort, after he proved himself loyal to Dumbledore. > > We also find out that Professor Trelawney has been at Hogwarts for sixteen > years, but later on, we find out the story behind her hire as well. > > Now, McGonagall's answer is what I find intriguing. We learn that she has > been at Hogwarts for thirty-nine years, but we don't find out any new > information behind her arrival at Hogwarts. Is this information that we're > supposed to keep in the back of our minds for a later purpose? > > I have my own opinions about McGonagall. She came to Hogwarts twenty- > four years before Harry was born. I believe she is Harry's great-grandmother > on James's side, and that, for some reason (perhaps James's father was > killed), it became necessary for her to take on a job to help the family out > when James was born. > > Now, I know this theory doesn't fall in line with the "James was well-off" > theory, and it's a little far-fetched besides. What do you think? > > Elli > Me: Nice Idea but a problem within: 1. JKR says in an interview James and Lily had so much money it didn't matter to them to get a well paied job. Yours Finchen From jsmgleaner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:24:34 2003 From: jsmgleaner at yahoo.com (jsmgleaner) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:24:34 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78186 > Laura: > First, in my original post asking for ideas on punishments for > Umbridge, I did make it clear that any punishment imposed should be > *after* a public trial. If the WW didn't learn anything else last > time around, I hope that they learned that in the realm of law, the > ends do NOT justify the means. Corrupt procedure leads to corrupt > results-just ask Sirius (if you can find him...sigh). Me: That was part of my main point in the post, but I think I was responding to a lot of one-liner threads about Umbridge, not your original (sorry for the confusion). But I think, moreover, that what OOtP reminds us is that unjust laws can be passed and that legal systems do not necessarily mean justice, even in the WW. What if the trial just has to be a show trial? What if they made torture legal (or maybe torture is legal?)? I was trying to tease out the ethics involved in punishment, made very grey in the book by MoM's treatment of Harry and the weird centaur trauma and public humiliation of Umbridge. Laura again: [snip] > Third, you won't find a more dedicated feminist than me out there, > but the reality is that some women are bad people. If the entire > spectrum of human behavior doesn't apply to us, we aren't really > human, are we? [snip] Me again: I actually thought the Umbridge character was terrific for the narrative, especially compared to other villains in the series (and I would never ask anyone to pull out their feminist credentials). Stylistically, though, I thought it was a bit too much at the end with JKR practically saying "Look Umbridge is * really* evil" with Umbridge about to use the AK curse on Harry and having set the demnetors on him -- like the finale rack of a fireworks display. And I thought Umbridge appeared much sneakier and smarter than that; I would have preferred a more subtle approach. And, at times, I did find it annoying that Umbridge is depicted as so ugly and so evil. I'm in the middle of reading Dickens right now, and I have to say that it is too stock Victorian, but then again I have argued elsewhere that these novels are very Victorian in their plot structures and characterization. Which leads back to the question of the centaurs' violence. I was amazed by the suggestion of rape because once I thought about it, the language was very similar to how this would be obliquely hinted at in eighteenth and nineteenth century literature, particularly in captivity narratives. --jsmgleaner From rios0119 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:01:32 2003 From: rios0119 at yahoo.com (rios0119) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:01:32 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Cure? (Was Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78187 > bboy_mn: > > Keep in mind that Lockhart thoroughly researched all his books, so > the books were never fake. Everything that happened really did > happen, Lockhart just gave himself credit for all those things. Now Rios: Which leads me to believe that there just might be a Werewolf cure for Lupin yet. Lockhart was no doubt exaggerating when he claimed he performed the "homomorphus charm" and cured a Werewolf. However, while he does take credit for other people's work, as Steve says, his so-called magical feats are not made up. They've just been performed by others -- not HIM. In his books, he writes of his exploits fighting various types of magical creatures, but in reality, he has simply interviewed the wizards who really dealt with the creatures. Lockhart then performed Memory Charms on the wizards so they would forget. So, it's possible the "homomorphus charm" does exist -- but he has actually never performed it himself. So, all we need is for someone to find out how it works, and cure Lupin! Wouldn't it be loverly? Rios From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Wed Aug 20 18:17:33 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:17:33 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78188 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: > > Re your protest that she ought to be more clear about her intentions -- that's a > fair criticism. But given in Western culture the idea that "intelligent/rational > Christian" is seen as an oxymoron, it's hard to blame JKR for not advertising > this stuff. Not my fault really that the popular media is rejecting Christianity or its believers. If she truly believes then she could have been a beacon for other rational minds like her own. People who are both intelligent and faithful. I never had trouble reading about my own religion - the difference is that those authors were honest about their goals because they never attempted to hide them. But I like the reference to school literature. Having gone to a private religious schools, I never much thought about it. But you're right. They aren't going to be appropriate for children as required reading. If I were a public school teacher I would never teach the Narnia Series even not matter what its quality. I probably wouldn't include Pullman either - but he may be too difficult for public school on average anyway. However there is nothing wrong with books that overtly are about religious kids. It is good for kids to read about kids of other faiths and cultures. >(If subversive religion is indeed what she is > intentionally doing, which is still somewhat debatable -- books 6&7 will > confirm that for sure, or blow the theory sky high.) I have a feeling she's NOT missionizing or anything.(Though it smacks of that to me) She's probably just insensitive to the idea others may not want their children reading such material. Not uncommon amongst Christians I find. Many seem to believe their faith is a kind of universal belief. I wouldn't be surprised if Rowling thought the same and never considered the issue at all. She doesn't seem particularly insightful to me on other social issues either. I wouldn't assume her to be particularly insightful on this one. >Pullman's "Dark Materials" series to > tell you before launching into them that they are books with a humanist/ > materialist worldview (one that rejects the notion of a soul or any transcendent > dimension). (Pullman's books are really well-written, also -- technically better > crafted than the Potter books, IMHO.) Pullman is honest about his atheism and he doesn't pull punches in his book. It is clear from the start how he feels about it all. Rowling on the other hand went out of her way to deliberately make Hogwarts inclusive - giving nods to kids who might be of other relgions like Finnigan, the Patils, and Goldstein (whose name like Cho's was rather butchered). Hogwarts wasn't religious. It hasn't even a chapel that I know of - and for an old school that is unsual. I used to theorize it was a nod to the Old Ways before Wizards converted to Chrstianity for the most part. (It goes along with my theory that Hogwarts is one of Slytherin's castles. I have lots of fun stories about the founders in my head.) Christmas was deliberately distanced from its religious source and isn't even spiritual. There is more focus on gift giving and fun than spiritual celebration. Given the framework JKR established, I think she hid her views far more than Pullman does. But I wouldn't have a problem with someone not wanting their child to read Pullman on the grounds that he dislikes the church. Rowling didn't give us a chance to decide for FOUR books. That is over half the series. Obsucre medeival imagery and wood symbolism doesn't count. It could mean anything. PLus that stuff is obviously not going to be picked up by non Christians. I had to explain the veil thing to several friends who were just mystified. She could have at least given us the prophecy to frame the picture - very Jesus like. Of course it works in a very NT kind of way. Jesus chooses to embrace his fate even if he knows it is fated he still makes the choice to do it. > Anyway -- I appreciate your comments, your critical thinking, and your > willingness to look deeper into the philosophy/intent behind the plotline of the > HP stories. I am enjoying our discussion. Thank you. How kind. I would also like to say that as a Christ story I can't say how good a job she does. I just don't find the idea of love very compelling. But perhaps someone else can say if it is well done. I think I've seen better but I can't really say for sure. I just can't shake the feeling that if I was Harry I wouldn't want to set one toe in Hogwarts after GOF. I guess home is where the heart is :). Golly From n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:11:44 2003 From: n_longbottom01 at yahoo.com (n_longbottom01) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:11:44 -0000 Subject: Petunia reading the Daily Prophet? (Was Petunia/"That Boy") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78189 snip > Now Jen: That's a really good theory and one that fits in with > Petunia's character. There's more support in OOTP for your > theory,too: The scene where she and Vernon are watching the news and > Petunia says: "as if we're interested in their sordid affairs" about > the celebrity divorce, when really Petunia has "followed the case > obssessively in every magazine she can lay her bony hands on." She's > definitely portrayed as a snoop and gossip throughout the series. > > Why now, though? Is she just pretending an abhorrence for all things > magic and her curiousity caught up with her? Petunia doesn't find out > until later in the Azkaban conversation that LV is back, so she can't > be looking for information on his return in the Daily Prophet. > > I wonder if it's some change in Harry she sees that reminds her of > Lily. Certainly he is acting different, constantly trying to watch > the news, getting the newspaper by owl post. Maybe Petunia saw a > change in Lily when Voldemort took power. > snip > > I'm suddenly very interested in knowing more about Petunia--Jen now me (n_longbottom01): As a possible answer to the "Why would Petunia now be possibly snooping through Harry's copies of the Daily Prophet, when she wouldn't have anything to do with anything magical in the past?" question: If Petunia is as nosy as she is made out to be, I think she would be tempted to start reading (secretly, of course) Harry's copies of the Daily Prophet as soon as she first realized Harry had started taking the paper. I think her apparent hatred of all things magical might keep her from snooping through Harry's other things, but I think her nosiness would get the better of her when it comes to the newspaper. I think she is just too big of a gossip and a snoop to stay away from those copies of the Daily Prophet, regardless of what her feelings about magic may be. In the summer before Harry's fifth year, the Dursleys do know that Harry has begun taking the paper. So, for the first time, the temptation would be there for Petunia. If you believe Petunia would have read those papers, then Petunia doesn't have to be a witch or a squib to know what she knows about dementors, and she wouldn't had to have gotten the information Lilly or James (or anyone else). I don't think there was necessarily anything that prompted her to suddenly become interested in the Wizarding world, such as fears of Voldemort's return; I think she started learning about the wizarding world because the Daily Prophet was right there in her house, and she couldn't help herself. n_longbottom01 From taykimson at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:12:51 2003 From: taykimson at yahoo.com (taykimson) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:12:51 -0000 Subject: Wizard Fashion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78190 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anna" wrote: > Okay, I know this is not a very "adult" question, but it has been > annoying me for quite some time now, so here goes. From all > indications, Remus Lupin is a pretty good wizard, eh? So, I have > always wondered why he can't swish and flick himself some new robes - > or at least a better, less noticeable patch job. Am I missing > something? Maybe Lupin just doesn't care about such superficial > things. -Anna Tay: I've always found the state of Lupin's robes interesting as well. I find it hard to believe that he could not at least afford robes from the second-hand shop (that Molly Weasley visits). I know in POA Lupin states that until Dumbledore gave him a chance he had been unable to find paid work - so I guess things were so difficult he had to ensure he had food and there was no money for anything else? Taykimson From huntleyl at mssm.org Wed Aug 20 22:34:45 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:34:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? References: Message-ID: <076801c3676b$41e145f0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 78191 Jen Reese said: >The centaurs have never been portrayed as creatures who would rape, >as you said above. They ARE being portrayed in OOTP as capable of >physical violence and more territorial than ever before, although the >only incident we have proof of was against one of their own kind. But in a lot of traditional mythology, being a rapist goes hand in hand with being a centaur. I *think* this is because A) As there are no female centaurs, they must rape human women in order to reproduce (much like minotaurs) and B) the legend of centaurs was started by people who had never seen horses (or at least not *mounted* horses) and mistook the soldiers that conquered them for half-human beasts. And what do soldiers do when they conquer a village? (Other than pillage and set fire to things, that is.) Uh-huh. So, that's why I thought of rape when the centaurs carted Umbridge off. Because, as sophisticated and honorable as JKR has been portraying them, *actual* (^_~) centaurs are known for their violence and brutality. However, I discounted this theory on the grounds that it isn't really Jo's style and on the fact that Umbridge didn't *seem* raped when she was returned to Hogwarts. (no physical damage, no one could figure out what was wrong with her, etc.) Plus, if I were to decide that she *had* been raped, I would have had to feel bad for her, which I had no intention of doing. ^_~ James Redmont: >If Umbridge was raped, it would also have a sort of justice, like I >said in my original post, if she had a half-breed child, since she >loaths half-breeds so much. You did NOT just say "rape" and "justice" in the same sentence. *scowls at you* For shame. Laura (who has rather strong feelings about sexual assault and doesn't believe that *anyone* -- under *any* circumstances -- deserves it.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:34:58 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:34:58 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jsmgleaner" agreed with Abigail who wrote: > I think the fact that so many people jumped the conclusion of > rape in Umbridge's case - despite very little hard evidence in the > matter - is emblematic of the same kind of perception[using sex as a weapon against women]. Talisman, who must be getting the truncated version wonders: What posts were you reading? "So many people jumped to the conclusion?" In my world OoP came out June 21, 2003 and it is now August 20, 2003. When I jump to a conclusion, I'm usually quicker than that. Actually it seems that it was Abigail who immediately saw rape in this scene: >"Oh, thank God! I thought I was really twisted, but the very >first reaction I had to the centaurs pursuing Umbridge was that >they were going to rape her. And then I felt really, really bad. >Still do, in fact." In fact, feeling so badly, she goes on to scold everyone else, including disparaging readers _of her own invention_ "who delight in the assumption that [Umbridge] was raped, because the stuck-up bitch deserved it." Frankly I didn't see the "rape" possibility until I read the posts this afternoon. Moreover, in all the posts I read, the writers seem more horrified than delighted at the prospect that JKR would use rape as a punishment. (And, where is that "stuck-up" business coming from?) Leaving possible subconscious motivations (of author or readers) aside, I don't think Umbridge was raped. I think JKR is brave enough to tackle any subject, but it does seem out of character for the centaurs. As many have pointed out, they abhor any contact with humans, and with their reverence for foals, certainly wouldn't want to risk mating with one. An ugly idiotic one at that. That is why I wrote what is obviously an irreverent reply, expressing concern for the traumatized centaurs. If you have to spank someone, you can spank me for being irreverent. (There is also the fact that, until Grawp saved them, the centaurs were considering having Harry and Hermione pay "the same consequences" as Umbridge. (757) "They can join the woman!" You see, the scene just gets ugly to the point it really cannot be maintained.) jsmgleaner goes on to say: Whether or not Umbridge was raped, there is a sense in which JKR puts her readers in the position of desiring revenge, particularly physical revenge against a woman. Talisman notes: Justice versus Revenge. Lex Talionis? Specific or general deterrence? Jurisprudential distinctions without, in my studied opinion, a difference. Time to bust another myth we live by. And there are plenty of guys we want to get, too. Jsmgleaner continues: My point is that JKR uses Umbridge to place her readers in the position of acting like Barty Crouch, Sr., throwing important ethical boundaries out the window in order to fight evil on its own terms. Just as Crouch allows aurors to use the illegal curses and throws suspects into prison without trial (Sirius), readers are suddenly forced to confront their own reactions to an ostensibly bad character who has done wrong but is taken down for it, but not within a justice system. Talisman rebuts: You've got the wrong end of it here. Crouch was working within the wizard justice system. And, I hate to tell you this, but Crouchian justice is going on at this very minute, in the real world, for the same reasons, and under the guise of legitimate systems. JKR is always blasting sacred ideological fallacies. And, if you look a little closer, you'll see that she is not arguing for the supremacy of the entrenched legal system over natural justice. Crouch, Sr. is a very good example of justice systems gone wrong. So is Umbridge. (Nor is she arguing for vigilantism as shown, e.g., in the Shrieking Shack scene of PoA. Look for a more dialectical meditation ? la Melville's "Billy Budd.") Rather, Crouch is to the greater wizarding community as Umbridge is to the students. In the extended analogy, the centaurs are to Umbridge what Crouch, Jr. is to Crouch, Sr. Both are classic examples of the poetic justice that evil calls down upon itself by its own actions. Umbridge's "punishment," whatever it was, was actually meted out within a justice system, albeit a rather intolerant one. "Our ways are not yours, nor are our laws." (Magorian to Hagrid, 698) Nonetheless, JKR clearly shows us that it is Umbridge's unabated persecution of the D.A. and blind bigotry--reiterated as she stomps off to the forest, and continued to the point of hurling insults, threats and spells at the centaurs (with the Classical Greek hubris that signals impending judgment) that triggers her fall. Unfortunately, most of us think the cosmic scales fell a little short. Hence the clamor for Azkaban, etc. I personally expected Umbridge to be stomped into toad jelly. I was quite disappointed to see her toddling out on Dumbledore's arm. On the other hand, I don't want her to "get more" in Book 6 or 7, because I'm hoping never to hear of her again. jsmgleaner goes on to say: I think it . . . looks forward to Harry and others realizing that people who are on the bad side don't always know they are (or know they are helping it), which will make the ethics of the last two books more mature. I hope. . .jsmgleaner, who is fascinated by the Umbridge character, and not just because of her visceral reaction as a teacher Talisman, handing out an aromatic cup of coffee, responds: A moral landscape in infinite shades of gray has been on exhibit since Book One. Talisman --who is not fascinated by Umbridge, and though an attorney, has no "visceral" problems facing the warts of justice. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:46:33 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:46:33 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Cure? - Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78193 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rios0119" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > > > Keep in mind that Lockhart thoroughly researched all his books, so > > the books were never fake. Everything that happened really did > > happen, Lockhart just gave himself credit for all those things. > > Now Rios: > > Which leads me to believe that there just might be a Werewolf > cure for Lupin yet. Lockhart was no doubt exaggerating when he > claimed he performed the "homomorphus charm" and cured a Werewolf. " " ...edited... > > So, it's possible the "homomorphus charm" does exist -- but he > has actually never performed it himself. So, all we need is for > someone to find out how it works, and cure Lupin! Wouldn't it be > loverly? > > Rios bboy_mn: This has never been resolved because we don't have enough information to accurately determine the nature of the Homomorphus Charm, but discussions in the past have taken the tract that the Charm only forces the werewolf to transform back to his human form temporarily. That allowed the villagers to identify who the werewolf was, and it may have stop an imminent attack by the wolf. But there is no indication that the transformation reversal is permanent. It may have lasted for only an hour, which would have been enough time for the villagers to protect themselves, or move the werewolf to a safe location. Or, sadly, it is the general theory that werewolves are hard to kill in wolf form, maybe by forcing him back to human form, the werewolf became easier to kill. At any rate, this seems to be the belief held by most people who have discussed this in the past; the Charm in not a cure. Just a thought. bboy_mn From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:50:18 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:50:18 -0000 Subject: Harry and free agency (was : Harry and Christ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "klra2ra" wrote: > > Geoff Bannister wrote: > Basically, he was born "Harry Potter, the one who will > > > destroy LV", and nothing he can do will change that. I hate it, > > > because it completely goes against what DD said. Harry is the > > > Saviour, he is the result of other people's choices and his own > > > abilities (some of which are not even his own, but LV's anyway), > > > not the result of his own choices. > > I sort of disagree. Harry's part in the prophecy was determined by > the choices of others but, he does have the choice to join Lord > Thingy and therefore save his life and not require him to kill. But > Harry would never choose to do that and as DD said, it is our choices > that makes us what we are. > > We all are a product at least in some part of choices of others. We > are here because of the choices of our parents, we have different > life experiences in school, etc because of the choices of the other > students at the school (determining how popular we are, etc.) It > therefore falls to us (or Harry) to make choices based upon the > options given to us. Harry wasn't given the unlimited option of > Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw, Slytherin or Gryffindor . It was Slytherin and > Gryffindor that were the choices available to him. > > klra2ra We must remember there is still a choice inherent in the prophesy also. Harry can either choose to fight or let Voldemort kill him. D From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 23:06:41 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:06:41 -0000 Subject: Werewolf Cure? - Charm In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, ": Rios wrote: > > So, it's possible the "homomorphus charm" does exist -- but he > > has actually never performed it himself. So, all we need is for > > someone to find out how it works, and cure Lupin! Steve (bboy_mn) wrote: > This has never been resolved because we don't have enough > information to accurately determine the nature of the Homomorphus > Charm, but discussions in the past have taken the tract that the > Charm only forces the werewolf to transform back to his human form > temporarily. Me (Barb): Not to mention that what we do know of Lockhart's methods strongly implies that even if the charm did exist, if he took credit for it that would mean that he had probably also memory-charmed the person who should really get the credit, which in turn means that it's probably lost now and someone else will have to recreate the work of the person who originated it. I don't get the impression Lockhart ever bothered to actually LEARN the spells he was taking credit for having performed. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 23:09:23 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:09:23 -0000 Subject: Wizard Fashion + Lupin Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78197 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "taykimson" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Anna" > wrote: > > ... So, I have always wondered why he can't swish and flick > > himself some new robes - ... > > > > -Anna > > Tay: > I've always found the state of Lupin's robes interesting as well. I > find it hard to believe that he could not at least afford robes from > the second-hand shop (that Molly Weasley visits). ...edited... > > Taykimson bboy_mn: One small additional thought. Lupin is a outcast in wizard society. Most wizards, I am lead to believe, greatly fear werewolves, and I suspect Lupin has been around long enough that most of the wizard community knows who he is, but at the same time, don't actually know him. Consequently, I don't see Lupin strolling through the streets of Diagon Alley on a shopping spree. My guess is he gets by in the wizard world but only by skirting the very edges of it. For the most part, I suspect he keeps out of sight as much as possible. I also think that this is one of the reason Lupin is so valuable to the Order, because Lupin has skirted the edges of society, he would logically know all the other marginalize people who are out there on the edge with him. So, in a sense, he is like Mundungus Fletcher, Lupin knows people who know things that the average wizard would never have access to. My own private Lupin theory- Some people have wondered how Lupin as an outcast from society could have possible gained all the knowledge of magic that he seems to have. The first part of my theory involved Lupin's mother. I think she constantly supported him and encouraged him to say home and study, that is, put his time to good use instead of moping around the house all day feeling sorry for himself. So this gave him a great deal of time to gain academic knowledge. The second part is that Lupin is too well know in British wizard society, so I assume that Lupin has spent a lot of time traveling to distant lands; Africa, Asia, Middle East, etc.... In these travels, he gained a great deal of practical experience in dealing with dark wizards and dark creatures. Lupin would have had some advantage in these travels in that no one in these new places would know that he was a werewolf. But he would have had to go into hiding, perferably I assume in a deep dark forest for one week out of the month (full moon). So even in his travels far and wide, he would have still had to keep a low profile, stay away from large population areas, and not draw too much attention to himself. I think Lupin's mother is still alive and that he still lives with her, and she still encourages him to make productive use of his time and try to make something out of his life. Sure hope we get to meet her. Just a thought. bboy_mn From ninnamie at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 23:09:19 2003 From: ninnamie at yahoo.com (ninnamie) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:09:19 -0000 Subject: Wizard Fashion In-Reply-To: <20030820224643.14691.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Buttercup wrote: > > > annabellejane97 at yahoo wrote: > > > Okay, I know this is not a very "adult" question, > > but it has been > > > annoying me for quite some time now, so here goes. > > From all > > > indications, Remus Lupin is a pretty good wizard, > > eh? So, I have > > > always wondered why he can't swish and flick > > himself some new > > robes - > > > or at least a better, less noticeable patch job. > > Am I missing > > > something? Maybe Lupin just doesn't care about > > such superficial > > > things. > > > Taykimson wrote: > > > I've always found the state of Lupin's robes > > interesting as well. I > > find it hard to believe that he could not at least > > afford robes from > > the second-hand shop (that Molly Weasley visits). I > > know in POA > > Lupin states that until Dumbledore gave him a chance > > he had been > > unable to find paid work - so I guess things were so > > difficult he had > > to ensure he had food and there was no money for > > anything else? > > Buttercup: > I don't think wizards/witches can conjure up clothes. > Otherwise why wouldn't Mrs. Weasley do so for her > children when they're so financially burdened? > > And I think you're right, Annabelle, about Lupin not > being materialistic. He seems very much secure with > himself just the way he is. He doesn't need nice > clothes or possessions to impress others. > > ===== > Buttercup I've always had the impression that anything conjured by magic eventually disappears, like the leprechaun gold. I think that things like the chairs conjured by Dumbledore, extra tables conjured by the Weasleys for their garden dinner, the fan that wafted Nick up the staris, etc., only last for a short while, then disappear. The part that confuses me, though, is that Lupin and the Weasleys don't have a better method of fixing things that already exist, but are shabby. Hermione always fixes Harry's broken glasses, and Bill and Charlie repaired the table leg they broke. So why can't they magically mend their robes? -ninnamie From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 22:10:52 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:10:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Tear In-Reply-To: <00b201c36760$984efaa0$49f3a986@caro> Message-ID: <20030820221052.29278.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78199 Maybe I'm being hard on Dumbledore or maybe I misunderstood the last part of Chapter 37 (The Lost Prophecy), but when he finally sheds a tear it seems to be for the wrong reason. He doesn't cry when he and Harry are discussing Sirius' death. He doesn't cry when he sees how torn up Harry is. He doesn't cry when he finally burdens Harry with the prophecy. He DOES cry when he tells Harry why he didn't choose him as prefect, which is probably the last and least important thing on Harry's mind. I know JKR needed to let the readers know why Dumbledore didn't choose Harry, and this was obviously a good time to do so. But I don't think his tear was the final result of discussing the accumulated events. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 20 23:22:41 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:22:41 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <005901c3675c$3b708d70$49f3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78200 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a photograph of the > original Order . . .was no Snape! > What do you think? > Yours Finchen Talisman, hanging by her toes from the monitor, suggests: Usually vampires (even double agent spy ones) don't show up in photographs. (Yes, I do think that the reason Snape was so innnnterrrested to see his face in the GoF "foe glass" is that, not working like a normal reflection, it was a rare opportunity for him to see himself.) From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 20 23:30:04 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:30:04 -0000 Subject: 13 to a table defense - Ginny was the first to rise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drago9nine" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > Brief Chronicles said: > > > I had a thought this morning about the 13-to-a-table issue. > > > > Trelawney tells us that, when 13 people sit at one table, the > first to rise will be the first to die. > > > > In OoP, 13 people sit at a table and Sirius is the first to rise > and the first to die. > > Snip > > > > Somebody please tell me if I'm crazy, but I went back to the scene > where the Order members finish dinner specifically because I wanted > to reread the part where Sirius rises first. I'm at work and cannot > quote directly (woefully unprepared for my first post, sorry!) but I > was really puzzled because right before Sirius stands up, I believe > we see Ginny sitting on the floor playing with Crookshanks. Doesn't > that mean she had to have gotten up from the table before Sirius > stands? > > Could someone let me know if this is correct? I'm rather afraid I'm > losing my mind reading everyone's posts that mention Sirius rising > first. > > Thanks, > Dragonine Good catch - pg. 87 US edition "Ginny, who had lured Crookshanks out from under the dresser, was sitting cross-legged on the floor..." This is right before the argument about what Harry should be told regarding the Order. Marianne From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 20 23:33:04 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:33:04 -0000 Subject: Harry and free agency (was : Harry and Christ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > We must remember there is still a choice inherent in the prophesy > also. Harry can either choose to fight or let Voldemort kill him. > > Prophecies are tricky things. It may LOOK as though Harry is fated to fight Voldemort to the death, but when we read a prophecy it's like reading a life backwards. Harry has appeared to me to be acting freely throughout all the books so far, but a strict adherence to the fatalistic approach to the prophecy would say that throughout the past 5 years he's had no choice at all in what he did. It's just all part of the big "plan". That isn't the impression I've gotten from the books. I really do get the impression that he could have done anything differently at any time, and he has often weighed different courses of action - nothing feels forced. I don't see why the end of the series should be any different. I see a prophecy as not so much a prediction about what "will" happen, but as an observation about what *is happening*, once the future gets here. It's as if a prophet from the past were to walk into the room right now, watch me typing for a few minutes, then go away, back to their own time, and write a prophecy about women sitting at glowing screens, talking to invisible thousands. *I* wouldn't be any less free than I am in any other part of my life, prophecy notwithstanding. I hope the ending of the HP stories will be well done; the big climax of LOTR is my idea of a great ending, a "prophecy" that comes true, but in a very natural way. We may get to the end of the 7th book and say, "So Trelawney's prediction came true in the end, even though that seemed to be the most UNlikely outcome." Wanda From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 23:43:28 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:43:28 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > How did Fudge know the dementors tried to Kiss Harry? > Thanks for your input, > > Bohcoo Me: DD told him, I'll bet. How did DD know? He knows everything, doesn't he? James Redmont From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 20 23:48:54 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:48:54 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Prank and the Pensieve Four Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78205 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "derannimer" wrote: > Marina looks across the room at the corner table where > Derannimer is sitting. "What?" > > "Well, I know you're in mourning, but that's no excuse!" > > "Huh?" > > "You're disregarding the canon that got Pip started on all of this > the *last* time around! As Lupin is telling Harry about the Prank > in the Shrieking Shack, he says that "James heard what Sirius > was planning" and went to save Snape. James *heard* what > Sirius was planning, which implies -- and everyone agreed on > this one last time -- that Sirius himself didn't tell him!" Marina shrugs, unconcerned, and holds out her glass toward George, who obligingly refills it. "I don't think we can read too much into that. The Shrieking Shack conversation is a tense, emotionally fraught sequence when people aren't choosing their words as carefully as they otherwise might, and Remus is describing an even that happened almost twenty years ago and which he himself did not witness. Hell, in the hailstorm of accusations, recriminations and desperate cover-ups that must've followed the Prank, no one may have ever gotten around to telling Remus exactly how James found out. In fact, if Remus knew that James had found out from Peter, I would've expected it to be mentioned, what with Peter standing right there. If not by Remus, then by Peter himself, in an attempt to remind Remus what a good and helpful friend he'd been in the past. Lord knows Peter tried everything else..." Marina leans back in her chair, cradling her glass of Lagavulin lovingly in her hands. "So that's my theory and I'm sticking to it," she says. "Acronym or no acronym." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 20 23:47:09 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:47:09 -0000 Subject: TBAY Re: Removing the Prank to the George (are dogs allowed?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78206 Marina is feeling much happier and more comfortable now that the party has moved to the bar. Nothing like a warm fire, a comfortable seat and a good single malt to put things in perspective. She is even moved to give a friendly smile to a disreputable-looking stranger who wanders up to her table, dragging an equally disreputable child behind him. Encouraged by his reception, the stranger introduces himself as Kneasy and begins to speak. > Been takin' an interest in old > Snape as you know, what with looking after his kid," here he patted the > head of the mucus be-ribboned child, "and one thing I know is that > Snapey knew all the curses. He warn't afraid of no werewolf - AK it as > soon as look at it, he would." He sighed. Where you gone wrong, you > see, is the motivation. James didn't go there to save Snapes life, he > went there to save Lupins!" The newcomer pauses, clearly expecting an outraged reaction to this statement, but Marina merely smiles and sipps a bit more Scotch. "Nice try," she says, "but Snape's own reaction argues against it. He clearly doesn't think he could've just AK's his way out of the trouble, or he wouldn't be so worked up about James saving his life, or about branding Sirius a murderer. And then there's the matter of the life-debt, which would not exist if Snape's life had not been in genuine and extreme danger. If James had gone to the Shack to save Lupin from Snape, the only possible life-debt that could've resulted would've been from Lupin to James." Marina pauses to hand the snivelly kid a handkerchief and to take some peanuts from the bowl George just put in front of her, then continues. "Of course, Lupin's fate must've loomed pretty large in James' mind no matter what -- I'm sure there are huge consequences when a werewolf kills a human, probably involving death or imprisonment. So if you want to argue *that* as James' primary motivation, you could make a case for it, though you'd then have to explain what caused James' newfound maturity if it wasn't the Prank. But I don't think you could argue that James actually thought Snape would kill Lupin." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 23:49:05 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:49:05 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: <20030820212631.92308.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- James Redmont wrote: > > > If Umbridge was raped, it would also have a sort of > > justice, like I > > said in my original post, if she had a half-breed > > child, since she > > loaths half-breeds so much. > > > Rape is never justice. And that child would never be > born. If, by some miracle, it was born, it would be > subject to worse treatment than Harry ever was if kept > by Umbridge. > Don't make this something it's not. I don't mean justice as in, that's what should happen to her, I mean it would be *ironic*. Did you honestly think I was suggesting rape as a new way to punish people? James Redmont From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 20 23:54:30 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:54:30 -0000 Subject: An alternative reading In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78208 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > > > Second; a TBAY (78104) which postulates that James did not save Snapes > life at the Shrieking Shack out of altruistic motives. Sirius had > lured Snape into the tunnel. Maybe he thought he was doing James a > favour. Get rid of any competition for Lily. They knew that Snape was > well versed in curses when he arrived at Hogwarts (this is canon) and > had presumably learned more since. It is possible that James thought > that Snape could deal with a werewolf, even kill it. James got Snape > out to save Lupin from Snape's curses. James and Sirius were on a > hiding to nothing. If Snape was killed, no matter how personally > satisfying that would be, James and Sirius would be blamed; if Snape > killed Lupin, when he was in wolf form, Snape would be treated as a > hero and they would have lost a friend through their own stupidity. > Only option, get Snape out of there and as a bonus claim that he was > saving Snapes life. Sirius would have to take his chances for goading > Snape into the tunnel. They got away with it. James gets the kudos and > Sirius doesn't seem to be punished for his actions. We don't know that Sirius received no punishment. Snape certainly thinks that Sirius got away with attempted murder, but then, he would probably not have been happy unless said punishment involved severe bodily injury, if not incarceration for life in Azkaban. Then again, Snape's perception of the entire incident seems to be different from Dumbledore's. Did Sirius pull the wool over almost-all-knowing, mind- reading Dumbledore's eyes and get away scot free? Certainly, if Dumbledore knows enough about why James and Snape were in the tunnel, he's got to know that Sirius played a major part in getting them there. Do you really think he merely said, "Tsk, tsk, Sirius. Bad boy. Go to your room." And that was the end of it? > First repercussion: James started having doubts about Sirius. Not about > his friendship; about his judgement. He showed a tendency to rashness, > downright dangerous at times, to not thinking things through. Could he > be trusted with anything critical? These doubts might start to show, so > that even Sirius was aware of them, making him uncomfortable. Hence the > decision to change Secret Keeper with all the fallout from that > brilliant idea. Sirius strikes again in the planning department. Then why consider him in the first place? Why not take Dumbledore up on his offer to be Secret Keeper? > Second repercussion: Lupin does some thinking. Sirius put me at risk - > maybe. Sirius was certainly responsible for Snape finding out that I am > a werewolf. Snape is responsible for me losing my job at Hogwarts, for > telling the pupils parents, for me being unemployable. Ultimately, it's > all Sirius' fault, yet he's the one getting all the sympathy. Umm...all what sympathy? He's a wanted criminal with a price on his head. Molly thinks he's unstable, Dumbledore has neatly imprisoned him in his own home, Snape still hates him, the other Weasleys seem indifferent, Hermione is convinced he's never given Harry any good advice (yes the same Hermione who kept rabbiting on in GoF insisting that Harry write to Sirius, tell Sirius what's going on...). The only people who seem at all sympathetic to Sirius are Harry, Mundungus and Remus. This > pisses me off. What shall I do about it? Well, the opportunity arises > during the fight at the MoM. Lupins actions (or inaction) have caused > comment on the site before. Perhaps he took the revenge option - zap! > and Sirius falls through the curtain. > > Maybe that particular finale was planned, most likely not. But a free > shot at Sirius could have had great appeal for some-one feeling hard > done by. Could even give one thoughts of betrayal? He could also have had a free shot at any time that Sirius was "lying low at Lupin's." Hell, he could have opened the door to Sirius' knock and plunged a knife in his chest, done away with the body, and then just simply said, in reponse to Dumbledore's inquiries, "Gee, Sirius never showed up. Don't know what happened to him." Ah, you say, but Dumbledore could have read his mind...This wouldn't be the same Dumbledore who couldn't read the minds of a couple of sixteen- year-old students when they made up whatever story they concocted to try to explain the Prank? Marianne From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Wed Aug 20 23:54:48 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:54:48 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: <174.1f48a726.2c75438b@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, rayheuer3 at a... wrote: > rsteph1981 at y... writes: > > > Rape is never justice. And that child would never be > > born. If, by some miracle, it was born, it would be > > subject to worse treatment than Harry ever was if kept > > by Umbridge. > > As I understand biology (which may NOT be how the WW understands biology), I > have to agree. In one episode of "Hercules: The Incredible Journey", Lucy > Lawless, who would later play Xena, played a woman who shared a forbidden love > with a centaur. When the child was revealed to be a centaur, my wife couldn't > say anything except "ow" for about 20 minutes. > > -- Ray Me: I don't think we're playing with the same rules here...for instance, how did Mr. Hagrid impregnate Fridwulfa? (ladder...) And I don't think it's going to be a major plot element or anything...I don't think Jo's gonna start a new series about Umbridge's weird looking baby. James Redmont From Zarleycat at aol.com Wed Aug 20 23:59:59 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:59:59 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <005901c3675c$3b708d70$49f3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > Hi everyone! > > I wonder if it has been discussed before (as many others I couldn't manage > to read all postings): > > Rereading OoP I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a photograph of the > original Order at the "prefect party". He showed Harry everybody on it... > but there was no Snape! > Did he not join yet? Was he already working for DD but was not in it > officially, because of the traitor within the Order? Had he already changed > sides? > > What do you think? > > Yours Finchen Well, we know that Snape at some point came over to Dumbledore's side. Maybe this picture was taken before then. Or perhaps Snape was never an official, recognized member of OoP the first time around. His spying activities might have been had better cover if everyone assumed he was on Vmort's side. Marianne From editor at texas.net Thu Aug 21 00:05:03 2003 From: editor at texas.net (Amanda Geist) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:05:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? References: Message-ID: <003501c36777$df7d3600$0704a6d8@texas.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78211 Carolin Mnkemeyer wrote: > Rereading OoP I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a photograph of the > original Order at the "prefect party". He showed Harry everybody on it... > but there was no Snape! > Did he not join yet? Was he already working for DD but was not in it > officially, because of the traitor within the Order? Had he already changed > sides? > > What do you think? Marianne: Well, we know that Snape at some point came over to Dumbledore's side. Maybe this picture was taken before then. Or perhaps Snape was never an official, recognized member of OoP the first time around. His spying activities might have been had better cover if everyone assumed he was on Vmort's side. Amanda now: I think the fewer people knew what he was doing, the better. And even if he was already on the good side at that point, and even *if* all of them knew it, documenting it in a form that could be stolen or otherwise used as damning evidence is not a good idea. ~Snape Is *SO* Not A Vampire!Amanda From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 00:12:18 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:12:18 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: <076801c3676b$41e145f0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > James Redmont: > >If Umbridge was raped, it would also have a sort of justice, like I > >said in my original post, if she had a half-breed child, since she > >loaths half-breeds so much. > > You did NOT just say "rape" and "justice" in the same sentence. *scowls at you* For shame. > > Laura (who has rather strong feelings about sexual assault and doesn't believe that *anyone* -- under *any* circumstances -- deserves it.) James Redmont: For the love of god. I was speaking of poetic justice, not legal justice. Not the fact that she was raped, but if she had a *half breed child*. I'm saying it's ironic, her prejudices came home to her. Read the sentence again, come on, read it...If Umbridge was raped, IT WOULD ALSO HAVE A SORT OF JUSTICE, like I said in my original post, IF SHE HAD A HALF-BREED CHILD.... And anyway, I'll bet you thought I was a man, didn't you? James "I'm a girl!" Redmont From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 21 00:11:27 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:11:27 -0000 Subject: Wizard Fashion + Lupin Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > My own private Lupin theory- > > Some people have wondered how Lupin as an outcast from society could > have possible gained all the knowledge of magic that he seems to have. > > The first part of my theory involved Lupin's mother. I think she > constantly supported him and encouraged him to say home and study, > that is, put his time to good use instead of moping around the house > all day feeling sorry for himself. So this gave him a great deal of > time to gain academic knowledge. > > I think Lupin's mother is still alive and that he still lives with > her, and she still encourages him to make productive use of his time > and try to make something out of his life. Sure hope we get to meet her. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Awwwww, this is a very sweet theory! You know, there's so little info about Lupin's parents, but what's there supports your theory. In POA, Lupin said his parents "tried everything" but he wasn't helped until the Wolfsbane potion came along. And his parents must have approached Dumbledore to push his admission to Hogwarts, assuming he was in St. Mungos after the bite and thus registered as a werewolf. So it naturally follows he wasn't invited to Hogwarts and his parents had to advocate for him. An example of inclusion at its finest--all parties working together in the best interest of the child. Do you think it's possible we've already met his Mom? Professor Sprout or Madam Pomfrey could hold their own with a werewolf child, and might be (?) old enough to have a child Lupin's age (I'll check the Lexicon on that). McGonagall certainly could, and we would never know he was her son b/c she's not one to show favoritism. Just having a little fun--I like the idea that Lupin has an advocate out there to help him through his trials....Jen From lziner at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 00:27:18 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:27:18 -0000 Subject: Wizard Fashion + Lupin Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > My own private Lupin theory- > > > > Some people have wondered how Lupin as an outcast from society could > > have possible gained all the knowledge of magic that he seems to > have. > > > > The first part of my theory involved Lupin's mother. I think she > > constantly supported him and encouraged him to say home and study, > > that is, put his time to good use instead of moping around the house > > all day feeling sorry for himself. So this gave him a great deal of > > time to gain academic knowledge. > > > > I think Lupin's mother is still alive and that he still lives with > > her, and she still encourages him to make productive use of his time > > and try to make something out of his life. Sure hope we get to meet > her. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > > > Awwwww, this is a very sweet theory! You know, there's so little info > about Lupin's parents, but what's there supports your theory. In POA, > Lupin said his parents "tried everything" but he wasn't helped until > the Wolfsbane potion came along. > > And his parents must have approached Dumbledore to push his admission > to Hogwarts, assuming he was in St. Mungos after the bite and thus > registered as a werewolf. So it naturally follows he wasn't invited > to Hogwarts and his parents had to advocate for him. An example of > inclusion at its finest--all parties working together in the best > interest of the child. > > Do you think it's possible we've already met his Mom? Professor > Sprout or Madam Pomfrey could hold their own with a werewolf child, > and might be (?) old enough to have a child Lupin's age (I'll check > the Lexicon on that). McGonagall certainly could, and we would never > know he was her son b/c she's not one to show favoritism. Just having > a little fun--I like the idea that Lupin has an advocate out there to > help him through his trials....Jen I have a different thought about his robe. Maybe he keeps it so shabby to show how the WW treats someone with his condition. He cannot work and is shunned. So it's just a reminder to him of his status. OR - an attempt to "wake-up" others about how those with his condition are treated. Also, in POA, Malfoy criticizes his manner of dress which says a lot about Malfoy. The other students overlook his shabby appearance as their respect for him grows. It's a good way to size someone up. I like the advocate idea - I would just hate for him to live with his Mom. Like he wouldn't have enough problems with women :) Lziner From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 00:44:45 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 00:44:45 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78215 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" > wrote: > > How did Fudge know the dementors tried to Kiss Harry? James Redmont said: > DD told him, I'll bet. How did DD know? He knows everything, > doesn't he? Talisman,swoops in to say: I believe Snape told DD. Snape was the only one in a position to do so. This is one of the many reasons I have for believing Aide-de- Camp!Snape was, once again, on the job (for DD) saving Harry. Without wading through the entire convoluted logic of time-turners, there had to be a first time through the dementor scene. I do not think we are to believe that time-turners can unsuck anyone, any more than they can bring the dead to life. Therefore, someone had to prevent the initial sucking, and the obvious answer is that Snape was not knocked out (either at all or as long as presumed) and saved Harry, Hermione, and yes, Sirius that first time through. I also point out that in Occlumency lessons, Harry has recurrent visions of the dementor scene form PoA.(OoP 534, 536, 591) JKR chooses this "dementor vision" as the final one for Harry's "resistance break-through" so that we see Snape's face layered with the dementors. (OoP 591) Ambiguous, yes. Just a coincidence. I think not. You might also notice that in PoA where M.O.M Law Enforcement could have been a problem,i.e. if Snape pressed charges for being injured by HRH's spells, he absolves them. "They weren't responsible for their actions." (PoA 386) But when it comes to severe academic punishment for interference, where only Dumbledore has the power (so there is no danger of it being exercised), he argues they should "be suspended--at the very least." (387) Snape's rhetoric and Snape's actions are two entirely different things. And while I'm at it, as to the business about Snape being unable to control his emotions where James/Harry are concerned: >"Only those skilled at Occlumency are able to shut down those feelings and memories that contradict the lie, and so utter falsehoods in his presence without detection. " (Snape OoP 531) "Harry, I know you don't like Snape, but he is a superb Occlumens . . ." (Lupin OoP 527) Talisman, who has decided to dye all of her underwear gray. > From lunachapter10 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 01:12:08 2003 From: lunachapter10 at yahoo.com (lunachapter10) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:12:08 -0000 Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78216 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" wrote: > - > *****\(@@)/***** > > As a long time knitter I have to say there is a lot more to socks > that there appears (and not just the knitting part)! JKR wouldn't > mention such a mundane item unless there was something in it. I > think the socks are important in some way. Also I think the sweaters > Molly knits for the Weasleys (and Harry) are important too. Maybe > she knits some sort of protection into them. Also maybe that is > another reason she was so upset that Percy returned his sweater - > possibly he is without an important protection now. > > Dudemom_2000 who has knitted every one of the sweaters in the books > and was vastly disappointed the sweater in OoP was not described but > is steadily knitting the socks now..... > > *****\(@@)/***** Sweaters with protection charms built in, I love that theory. I think the socks represent being happy with the simple things in life, maybe? Actually, I was just thinking lately about taking up knitting as a relaxing past-time when I am not contemplating Potterverse. I know the dragon and lion sweaters are probably extremely complicated, would it be too hard for a beginner to do a Hogwarts scarf or even a Weasley sweater? From EnsTren at aol.com Thu Aug 21 01:16:12 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 21:16:12 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests Message-ID: <1d2.f9b74e3.2c75775c@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78217 In a message dated 8/20/2003 3:59:18 PM Eastern Daylight Time, sylviablundell at aol.com writes: > I am surprisedthat Mrs. Weasley is still using this, considering that > its author has not only been shown to be a complete fraud but has > also placed her son in considerable danger. I would have expected > her to have binned it, together with her back-numbers of Witch > Weekly. Perhaps, though, he is only a fraud as a wizard, but is > really hot at dealing with Doxys. Well, he got the information from correct sources, that's number one. Number two, it worked before (supposedly). Number three, the Weasleys don't have money to spare Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rvotaw at i-55.com Thu Aug 21 01:52:57 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:52:57 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Tear References: <20030820221052.29278.qmail@web21001.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008901c36786$f2741bc0$f09ccdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 78218 Buttercup wrote: > he finally burdens Harry with the prophecy. He DOES > cry when he tells Harry why he didn't choose him as > prefect, which is probably the last and least > important thing on Harry's mind. I don't think it's over the Prefect issue that the tear came about, but over, in Dumbledore's words ". . . you had enough responsibility to be going on with." Considering he had just, in effect, told a fifteen year old boy who was already in great distress from grief that he had to by all accounts save the world, it's understandable. Since Dumbledore knew the prophecy all along, the first time he held Harry at Privet Drive when leaving him on the Dursley's doorstep he knew this was the child that would grow up to save the world. The WW from Voldemort at any rate. The tear wasn't from the "why Harry wasn't prefect issue" but from the "enough responsibility" part. Richelle From EnsTren at aol.com Thu Aug 21 02:26:55 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:26:55 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) Message-ID: <150.22f67bb4.2c7587ef@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78220 Forgive me for not quoting however I have a thought, We have seen reason for it not being rape, and the reason why somepeople think it was rape is simply "impressions" and "no physical evidence" of there being anything eld. I would like to point out that according to greek mythology there were no female centaurs. They were expected to reproduce via mares and humans. If Ms. Rowling is following that myth, well, we would have a more solid basis for the rape accusation that would bipass the "too human" statement Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 02:32:30 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:32:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's Tear In-Reply-To: <008901c36786$f2741bc0$f09ccdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: <20030821023230.61560.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78221 > Buttercup wrote: > > > he finally burdens Harry with the prophecy. He > DOES > > cry when he tells Harry why he didn't choose him > as > > prefect, which is probably the last and least > > important thing on Harry's mind. > Richelle wrote: > I don't think it's over the Prefect issue that the > tear came about, but > over, in Dumbledore's words ". . . you had enough > responsibility to be going > on with." Considering he had just, in effect, told > a fifteen year old boy > who was already in great distress from grief that he > had to by all accounts > save the world, it's understandable. Since > Dumbledore knew the prophecy > all along, the first time he held Harry at Privet > Drive when leaving him on > the Dursley's doorstep he knew this was the child > that would grow up to save > the world. The WW from Voldemort at any rate. The > tear wasn't from the > "why Harry wasn't prefect issue" but from the > "enough responsibility" part. Buttercup: Thanks for explaining that nicely. Now I understand. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 02:44:06 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:44:06 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78222 Jsmgleaner continues: > My point is that JKR uses Umbridge to place her readers in the > position of acting like Barty Crouch, Sr., throwing important > ethical boundaries out the window in order to fight evil on > its own terms. Just as Crouch allows aurors to use the illegal > curses and throws suspects into prison without trial (Sirius), > readers are suddenly forced to confront their own reactions to an > ostensibly bad character who has done wrong but is taken down for > it, but not within a justice system. > > Talisman rebuts: > You've got the wrong end of it here. > Crouch was working within the wizard justice system. And, I hate to > tell you this, but Crouchian justice is going on at this very > minute, in the real world, for the same reasons, and under the guise > of legitimate systems. > Laura: No, I don't think Crouch was working within the system. He (as is indeed going on at this very minute in the real world) decided, on his own, to suspend the laws that were in place and no one was able or willing to stop him. (Where was DD?) This, of course, goes back to the question of check and balances in the WW, which we are unable to resolve with the evidence we currently have. But they sure don't seem to work too darn well. Now Talisman again: > JKR is always blasting sacred ideological fallacies. And, if you > look a little closer, you'll see that she is not arguing for the > supremacy of the entrenched legal system over natural justice. > Crouch, Sr. is a very good example of justice systems gone wrong. > So is Umbridge. (Nor is she arguing for vigilantism as shown, e.g., > in the Shrieking Shack scene of PoA. Look for a more dialectical > meditation ? la Melville's "Billy Budd.") Laura: What exactly do you mean by natural justice? Imo, revenge is natural; justice isn't. Justice takes constant self-control (both personally and societally). Justice requires that we understand what revenge does to an individual and to society as a whole, and that, having gained that understanding, we reject "what is easy" for "what is right"-and what is more civilized. If you believe in God, it's reaching for that quality that is the more like God. Talisman: > Rather, Crouch is to the greater wizarding community as Umbridge is > to the students. In the extended analogy, the centaurs are to > Umbridge what Crouch, Jr. is to Crouch, Sr. Both are classic > examples of the poetic justice that evil calls down upon itself by > its own actions. > > Umbridge's "punishment," whatever it was, was actually meted out > within a justice system, albeit a rather intolerant one. "Our ways > are not yours, nor are our laws." (Magorian to Hagrid, 698) Laura: Again, the punishment she gets from the centaurs is for the violations she committed against them, not for the things she did in the school. If you'd taken her out of Hogwarts the day she arrived and dropped her in the Forest and she'd encountered the centaurs, she would have behaved the same way. Hubris, to be sure, but unconnected with Hogwarts. I guess that you can see any punishment a character gets as "poetic" justice, in that that character deserved it, no matter who dishes it out. But it's not justice the way we understand it in everyday life, where the aggrieved party gets to make his/her case in the public forum, the accused gets to defend him/herself and neutral representatives of the society decide on the course of action to be taken. Talisman: > Nonetheless, JKR clearly shows us that it is Umbridge's unabated > persecution of the D.A. and blind bigotry--reiterated as she stomps > off to the forest, and continued to the point of hurling insults, > threats and spells at the centaurs (with the Classical Greek hubris > that signals impending judgment) that triggers her fall. > > Unfortunately, most of us think the cosmic scales fell a little > short. Hence the clamor for Azkaban, etc. > > I personally expected Umbridge to be stomped into toad jelly. I was > quite disappointed to see her toddling out on Dumbledore's arm. On > the other hand, I don't want her to "get more" in Book 6 or 7, > because I'm hoping never to hear of her again. Laura: I can't say as I blame you. We Jews have a saying about Hitler-"may his memory be erased". Umbridge isn't quite in that league, but the idea is that the worst punishment is for the world to act as though you've never been. That would certainly be fitting for Umbridge... From sydenmill at msn.com Thu Aug 21 02:56:01 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:56:01 -0000 Subject: Death clues In-Reply-To: <3F433909.7080500@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > christian wrote: > > the second door on the right bore the words 'DANGEROUS' > > DAI LLEWELLYN WARD: SERIOUS BITES.' > > The name Dangerous Dai Llewellyn makes me think of Dangerous Dan > McGrew. Does anyone think Rowling is a Robert Service fan? Bohcoo responds, delightedly: Another Robert Service fan??? Yes-s-s-s-s! You might be onto something. Rowling incorporates so much into her storyline, it would be quite a hoot if she has included good ol' Robert Service. Now, lessee. . . All that happened to Dan McGrew is he got "played false" (to use a Rowling expression) by the "lady that's known as Lou." Hm.m.m.m. Lily and Snape, perchance? Don't think Lou actually took a bite out of dear Dan, but you never know, unless you count the serious bite she took when she "pinched his poke. . ." (And, no-o-o, that doesn't mean what it sounds like, to those who are not fans.) :) Bohcoo (OT but if you haven't read it, try, "A Sourdough Story" by Robert Service. What a scream!) From huntleyl at mssm.org Thu Aug 21 03:10:35 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:10:35 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? References: Message-ID: <07b401c36791$ca601840$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 78224 James Redmont: >For the love of god. I was speaking of poetic justice, not legal >justice. Not the fact that she was raped, but if she had a *half >breed child*. I'm saying it's ironic, her prejudices came home to >her. Read the sentence again, come on, read it...If Umbridge was >raped, IT WOULD ALSO HAVE A SORT OF JUSTICE, like I said in my >original post, IF SHE HAD A HALF-BREED CHILD.... Excuse me. I assumed that you meant it would have been justice for her to be raped and forced to bear the child of a centaur. As in, justice in the "moral" or the "comeuppance" sense. I see what you meant better now, although I think you could have been a little clearer in your wording, as I was not the only person to make this mistake. I do agree that it would be very ironic *if* Umbridge was raped and *if* that rape resulted in a child. However, I highly doubt that JKR will travel down that particular road. It would make a strong statement, yes. But it would also be too complicated to deal with properly, unless JKR suddenly decided to spend several dozen pages on a side-point that has no actual value to the plot. I do wonder what will become of Umbridge in the future books, however. Will she drop almost completely from the storyline (like Lockhart)? I don't know about the rest of you, but I spent so much time and energy hating the woman that I would feel a bit at loose ends if she just disappeared. (Just as a side note: *Does* everyone think that Lockhart is pretty much out of the main plotline for good?) >And anyway, I'll bet you thought I was a man, didn't you? Actually, I didn't. *smiles* Caught your pronoun usage when you were referring to yourself in the third person a couple posts back. Laura P.S. If I ever have three daughters (which I won't, because I'm not ever having kids), I'm going to name them James, Tomas, and Mordecai. In that order. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 03:22:43 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 20:22:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030821032243.99674.qmail@web20003.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78225 > James Redmont: > > For the love of god. I was speaking of poetic > justice, not legal > justice. Not the fact that she was raped, but if > she had a *half > breed child*. I'm saying it's ironic, her > prejudices came home to > her. Read the sentence again, come on, read it...If > Umbridge was > raped, IT WOULD ALSO HAVE A SORT OF JUSTICE, like I > said in my > original post, IF SHE HAD A HALF-BREED CHILD.... > > And anyway, I'll bet you thought I was a man, didn't > you? > > James "I'm a girl!" Redmont But that justice doesn't exist. She would not allow that child to be born, or she'd kill it soon after, or she'd keep it and torture it. She'd certainly never love it. She would not suffer from the treatment of people like herself; only the child would. And that's really the crux of it all. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From sydenmill at msn.com Thu Aug 21 03:26:48 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 03:26:48 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78226 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer > wrote: > > I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a photograph of the > > original Order . . .was no Snape! > > What do you think? > > > Yours Finchen > > Talisman, hanging by her toes from the monitor, suggests: > > Usually vampires (even double agent spy ones) don't show up in > photographs. > > (Yes, I do think that the reason Snape was so innnnterrrested to see > his face in the GoF "foe glass" is that, not working like a normal > reflection, it was a rare opportunity for him to see himself.) Bohcoo, amid a big case of creeps: Yah-arghh-h. Good point. I wondered why he was so fascinated with the foe glass reflection myself. Clues. Clues. The man is a vampire, sure as the world. We have all the other usual dark creatures -- werewolves, bats flying around at Halloween feasts, etc. The only one missing is the vampire. Or, is he? Bohcoo (BTW. Are you a fan of Bugs Bunny and the big orange monster where he is doing the monster's nails and says, "Monsters are very innnnterrresting...?" From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 03:52:59 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 19:52:59 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Lupin always being sickly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030820194158.00a6ec68@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 78227 At 12:25 AM 8/20/2003 +0000, lziner wrote: > >In OOtP, his robe is mentioned - I think its the Advance Guard >chapter - as being shabby and darned in several places. In that >book, I do think he is staying at Grimmauld place. Hmm...I believe the book states that Sirius is left alone quite a bit. That would lead me to believe that Lupin wasn't living there, but off doing Order business. >I bet over the years, he spent a lot of time staying with the mauraders. Haven't been many of them to stay with for the last fifteen years. One dead, one assumed dead (but living as a rat) and one in Azkahban (I don't care how desperate I am...I wouldn't want to spend the night with dementors)...so he's been without his core group of friends for a LONG time. Then once Sirius got out of prison, he was on the run for over a year before setting up camp at Grim Old Place. We have cannon evidence that Sirius and James spent a lot of holidays together, but they didn't mention Lupin. I wonder if Lupin spends much time with his folks? I don't think he would want to burden them, so I doubt he would want to live with them. >I have a feeling that he keeps getting "chucked-out" of any flat he has >because he's a werewolf. Very likely...as I've stated before, I picture him as sort of a David Banner (the Incredible Hulk TV series), except with a better outlook on his life...and not as good about getting new threads after a transformation. From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 04:06:40 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:06:40 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78228 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > James Redmont said: > > DD told him, I'll bet. How did DD know? He knows everything, > > doesn't he? > > Talisman,swoops in to say: > > I believe Snape told DD. Snape was the only one in a position to do > so. This is one of the many reasons I have for believing Aide-de- > Camp!Snape was, once again, on the job (for DD) saving Harry. > James Redmont: Yeah, I guess he could have used legilimency to do it, but he didn't *see* it...he said he didn't. This was already posted. Go upthread. James From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 04:22:32 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:22:32 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Oh, What a Tangled Web - Generational Parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78229 Laura fingered the engraved invitation that had accompanied the galleys of Abigail's latest scholarly article for the renowned Potter Quarterly Review. "Wow", she thought, "Abigail's branched out into three-dimensional conceptual realizations! And she's invited me to the unveiling of her first project! I can't wait!" Eagerly she unwrapped the draft of Abigail's article and sat down to read...Hours later, after several close readings and much mulling of Abigail's theories, Laura was able to collect her thoughts and make some critiques. She collected her quill and parchment and found her self- correcting ink, and wrote. [big snip-this was all great stuff] ...Abigail says, frowning. "I'm not > > crazy about OOP Fred & George, but I don't think they've ever > > reached the depths to which we saw James and Sirius sink in > > the Pensieve scene. Laura: Oh, I don't know about that. They sent Montague somewhere in the Vanishing Cabinet in OoP, and they had no idea where he went or when he'd return. Sounds a mite nasty to me-although he probably deserved it. > > "Is that it for James?" Dicentra asks. > > > > "Hardly." Abigail smirks. She picks up a new pipe and, with a > > flourish of her wand, labels it 'Draco Malfoy'. > > > > "Both bullies." She says thoughtfully. Laura: No, I don't think James or Sirius was a bully. We have no evidence that they gave a hard time to anyone but Snape. And Snape seemed to give as much as he got, even though we haven't seen details of any one incident (nor are we likely to hear a first person account with both James and Sirius gone). So it might have been a campaign of mutual provocation but it wasn't bullying. Draco, on the other hand, pushes around everyone he can get away with pushing around, for any reason and at every opportunity. Since we see things from Harry's POV, we don't see how Draco treats kids from other houses besides Gryffindor, but there's no reason to expect that he would be any kinder to them, especially since each of the other 2 houses would have mixed-parentage kids in it. ... Abigail says sternly. "Harry > > hates the Dark Arts, and so does Ron. Neither of them would > > even consider the kind of display that James and Sirius make of > > Snape. Laura: Want to bet? I have no doubt whatsoever that if either Harry or Ron had thought of it, Draco would have been hanging upside down faster than you can say "mudblood". They've both been enraged at him enough times-perhaps they just lack the necessary imagination. Abigail: > > "Now, we've already said that within the Harry/Ron relationship, > > Harry parallels Sirius, so let's just take care of that." She > bends > > the Harry pipe towards the Sirius pipe and welds them together. > > "Now, the general assumption is that Sirius is paralleled by > > Ron, and frankly that's not entirely off-base. In terms of > > personality, Ron and Sirius are both hot-tempered and not a > > little reckless. They tend to act first, think second, and leave > > more cerebral activities to their companions - Hermione in > > Ron's case, Lupin in Sirius' case." Laura: Sounds to me like that description could apply equally well to Harry or Ron. "Now, I don't think we can avoid > > paralleling Snape and Draco, because they both hold (or held) > > anti-muggle beliefs and represent Slytherin." Laura: Snape would have those in common with anyone in that house. > > "In light of OOP, the real parallel is obvious." Dicentra says. > > "Snape and Harry both come from unhappy homes. They were > > both bullied and ostracized." > > > > "But for different reasons." Abigail points out. "Just as Draco > > and James have different reasons for being bullies, Snape and > > Harry are bullied for opposite reasons - siding with Voldemort > > and siding with Dumbledore." Laura: See above for reasons why James isn't a bully. And I think you're off-base with the LV-DD parallel. Snape was ostracized by the Marauders because he was a creepy, misanthropic kid who even at age 11 was heavy into the dark arts and couldn't seem to keep his nose out of their affairs. His connection to LV came afterward. As for Harry, he was never ostracized for supporting DD by the other non- Slytherin students. The only people who gave him a hard time about that were Lucius, Fudge and Umbridge. When Harry had problems with the other students, it was because they suspected him of something, like being able to speak Parseltongue or being selected as champion. snip> > "Of course, there are other similarities between Harry and Snape." > > Says Abigail. "Will you listen to this? It's from chapter 24 of > OOP, > > Occlumency, page 473 of the UK hardcover, during Harry's first > > Occlumency lesson." She opens her book and begins to read: > > > > --------------------- > > > > '"Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said > > Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their > > sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad > > memories and allow themselves to be provoked so easily - > > weak people, in other words - they stand no chance against his > > powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!"' > > > > --------------------- > > > > Abigail closes the book with a bemused expression. "That gave > > me quite a chuckle when I first read it. Snape might as well be > > describing himself. I especially liked the bit about wallowing in > > sad memories." > > > > "Not always." Dicentra objects. "Snape can be cool as a > > cucumber at time. Look at him when faced with Quirrel or > > Lockhart. Or Lupin, for that matter. How cool would you be if you > > were face to face with a man who almost ate you? The most > > Moody can get out of Snape is an involuntary shudder, and he > > willingly exposes himself to Fudge as a DE. Apart from Sirius, the > > only person who consistently gets under Snape's skin is Harry." Laura: I'd have to agree with Dicentra here. Snape doesn't ever lose control in front of LV or his associates. The only person who can drive him to meltdown is Harry-and that's Snape's own doing. He was Harry's enemy before he ever met Harry. It's just as well for SS that Harry *wasn't* sorted into Slytherin-can you imagine the conflict he would have felt? And just because he removed memories into the Pensieve doesn't mean he was wallowing in them. He just wanted to keep them private. He does seem give most of his emotional energy to working out his past problems, though, which is probably why he's at Hogwarts-and why it's a bad idea for him to be there. He can never correct the past no matter how much control he can exert in the present. One more thing-it wasn't Lupin who would have attacked Snape, it was the werewolf. Remus had no control over what that creature did. Snape should have known that it wasn't anything personal in the Shack that night. > > > > "And vice versa." Abigail says, nodding. "Harry proves himself > > capable of self-control in OOP. He stops himself from crying out > > or reacting in any way to Umbridge's punishment. There's a > > similar dynamic at play - Harry is attempting to control his > > emotions out of spite. He succeeds with Umbridge, but fails with > > Snape." Laura: That's because Snape knows exactly which buttons to push-it's personal with him, whereas Umbridge treats everyone the way she treats Harry (except for her Squad members). > > > > "Snape looks at Harry and sees James." Dicentra says. "No matter > > how unlike James Harry is. Weren't you surprised when Sirius told > > Harry so?" > > > > "Well, it was a rather mean-spirited thing to say." Abigail admits. > > > > "Apart from that." Dicentra insists. "Even before the OOP > pensieve > > scene it was obvious that Harry and James are nothing alike. > > James was obviously an extrovert - we could see that just by the > > comparison to F&G in PoA and the existence of the Marauder's > > Map. Harry keeps himself to himself. He doesn't show his > > emotions, he isn't demonstrative. He doesn't laugh often or draw > > attention to himself or show his feelings. Neither Sirius nor > Snape > > seem capable of seeing this." Laura: Okay, maybe that wasn't Sirius's finest moment. But if you look at it from his POV, you can see where he had good reasons to think that Harry really was like James. Think about it: whenever Sirius encounters Harry, Harry shows bravery, audacity, leadership, intelligence and resourcefulness (in the Shack and during the Tournament in particular). Harry, like James, is absolutely loyal to his best friends and he detests the dark arts and everything about them. If Sirius and Harry had had the chance to live together under normal circumstances, in which neither one of them was under emotional pressure, Sirius would have come to see that Harry was his own person. As it is, it seems natural and reasonable enough for Sirius to identify in Harry qualities that he valued in his best friend-we're always looking for our friends in their children. There's a bit of sad irony in Sirius's jab at Harry. Most kids at 15 are looking for ways to be different from their parents-that's part of the process of building an identity and preparing to separate. But Harry is stuck in an earlier stage, never having had the chance to proceed through the normal course of development. So a remark that most kids might have shrugged off becomes deeply painful to him. Harry would have risked himself for Sirius (and did) but he wasn't willing to risk Sirius, and Sirius wasn't able to admit it. Sirius would have done better to direct his anger at the cause- Dumbledore. Yeah, I'm really ticked at DD. Laura reread her notes, then carefully sealed them into an envelope and sent them winging off to Abigail. "Now", she thought, "where should I go shopping for a dress for the opening? Something black, I think..." From tamliv at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 20 23:12:55 2003 From: tamliv at worldnet.att.net (Tamee Livingston) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 15:12:55 -0800 Subject: Umbridge and the Centaurs References: <1061399334.6909.92475.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <042001c36770$bb6b37f0$43c50c0c@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 78230 Abigail wrote: >>>[I'm mercilessly snipping this excellent post]I think the fact that so many people jumped the conclusion of rape in Umbridge's case - despite very little hard evidence in the matter - is emblematic of the same kind of perception. Umbridge needs to be taken down a peg, and how do we do that? By raping her. [Snip] I'm not pleased by the way JKR wrote Umbridge. [Snipping description of the positive female character development] But then there's Umbridge, and the readers who delight in the assumption that she was raped, because the stuck-up bitch deserved it. I don't like that at all. <<<< Now me (Tamee): I really appreciated Abigail's post since it described perfectly what squicks me out about the thought that Umbridge is raped by centaurs (even more than trying to figure out the physical logistics of such an act). And I personally don't believe that the centaurs did any such thing, mainly because I believe they would consider such a thing degrading to themselves. However, I believe that what sent Umbridge into such a catatonic state is that SHE believed they would do that and worse. After all, she calls them "filthy half-breeds" as well as "uncontrolled animals", and as she's being hauled off she's wandless and without defense, and knowing that in her position she'd be indulging in her own brand of cruelty, she expects them to behave in whatever bestial way she can imagine. For myself, I believe that she got carted off and dropped into a pit or placed in some kind of dank and unpleasant place of confinement while the centaurs fought with Grawp and each other trying to decide what to do, and that her own imagination reduced her to the state of shock. Tamee From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Aug 20 23:35:32 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:35:32 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? References: Message-ID: <3F4405C4.3080208@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78231 Talisman wrote: > > Talisman, hanging by her toes from the monitor, suggests: > > Usually vampires (even double agent spy ones) don't show up in > photographs. > > (Yes, I do think that the reason Snape was so innnnterrrested to see > his face in the GoF "foe glass" is that, not working like a normal > reflection, it was a rare opportunity for him to see himself.) > Just because Snape is not in the photo is not a sign of being a vampire. He either had not yet left the DEs OR he refused to be in the photo. I can't imagine that he would want to be in the photo in the first place or anyone forcing him to stand for it. The reason he saw himself in the foe glass is that the glass shows the person's 'foes'. Snape is his own worst enemy, after all. But at any rate, the mirror was owned by a Death Eater and Snape is a FOE to Death Eaters, including Barty... Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Aug 20 23:15:06 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 20 Aug 2003 18:15:06 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) References: Message-ID: <3F4400FA.4080300@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78232 Two reasons I cannot buy the rape scene. #1. The average centaur would be appalled at the idea of mating with a human. They can't stand humans and it would be to them like mating with an animal. #2. This is a children's book guys. There's NO WAY that they are going to include rape in it. And even less chance of non-humans raping humans. #3. Centaurs do have access to both magic and there are also many creatures they could go to for 'punishing Umbridge'. They could tie her up and leave her for the giant spiders for one. That would unhinge most people pretty badly. Jazmyn From EnsTren at aol.com Thu Aug 21 06:08:54 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:08:54 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? Message-ID: <1db.fa279a7.2c75bbf6@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78234 I have a simply solution to this. He walked off the edge of the picture. Really, even if he allowed a picture to be taken, do you think picture snape would stay in the buddy buddy happiness picture? No, he's haul himself off to picture land dungeons and potions lab Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From IAmLordCassandra at aol.com Thu Aug 21 06:11:36 2003 From: IAmLordCassandra at aol.com (IAmLordCassandra at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:11:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? Message-ID: <34.3e1630e9.2c75bc98@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78235 In a message dated 8/21/2003 2:04:00 AM Eastern Daylight Time, midgetsattack67 at yahoo.com writes: > > shokoono at g... writes: > > > > > Rereading OoP I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a > photograph of > > > the > > > original Order at the "prefect party". He showed Harry everybody > on it... > > > but there was no Snape! > > > Did he not join yet? Was he already working for DD but was not > in it > > > officially, because of the traitor within the Order? Had he > already changed > > > sides? > > > > Maybe snape joined the order after the photograph was made Or maybe he just didn't want to be in the photograph. ~cassie~ [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From subrosax at earthlink.net Thu Aug 21 06:17:30 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:17:30 -0000 Subject: Snape Vampire Theory (kinda long) In-Reply-To: <200308191312.59588.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78236 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > Not really, I owe you an apology for nasty uncalled humor, I'm sorry. I > was trying to reach the last line, that a lot of details doesn't prove > or disprove anything. Me: Not at all! I didn't think you were being nasty!I see what you are saying, but for me, alot of details DO seem to add up to something. Not conclusive proof obviously, but something. > If you like the vamp theories, I'd like to know your responses to > Kelly's questions: > > <<<<1. How is this relevant to the plot and how does this aid to > further the development of the books? > > 2. Does this directly affect the course of the books or the final > outcome of book 7?>>>> Me: The thing is, I don't think it's relevant to the plot at all, at least not so far. It's difficult to know, as we don't know the final outcome, but Snape is plenty interesting as it is. If JKR had been plotting to reveal that Snape is a vampire, then somewhere, in the middle of book 5 for example, decided "this vampire thing is crap" she could carry on with Snape and not have to change a thing. He's a great character as a plain old human. > If I'd knew about a werewolf like Lupin... he was not the kind, to me. I found Lupin completely believable. He DOES change into a wolf at the full moon. On the other hand, I don't really view Lupin as a "half-breed" or a fantastic creature of some kind. He was born a human wizard after all. Now, I rather think of him as a wizard with a medical condition, albeit a dangerous one. > I hate dhampires, let me say, so I'll let them appart. Me: I hate this theory too. I read the post where someone (sorry, forgot who) explains that Snape could be dhamphir, and carry on behaving like a normal person. That's true of course, and the person made some decent points. My problem with it is that it all comes back to how vampires or dhamphirs are made. JKR is still writing primarily for younger persons, and if she made Snape a dhamphir, she'd probably have to get into detail about what they were, as few children, nevermind adults would know. (I didn't) I just can't see JKR wanting to get into the details of how a vampire gets it on with the widow of one of it's victims in order to create a dhamphir. >A vampire is undead. I don't see much of a point on a vampire not being dead. They are not invulnerable but don't age> Me: This is my biggest problem with the vampire theory. The food, the daylight, the sleeping in a bed; that's just gravy. Bottom line for me is that Snape isn't undead. If he were, I can't see how he would owe a life debt. Even if he were a vampire and had met up with a werewolf, I still can't see how he could be killed. You're only dead once, as far as I know. > What I wonder is what happens if one of them goes trough the Veil, > because he's already dead. Me: I wish I knew!! I still don't understand how Sirius died in the first place. I hate that veil thing. I don't think JKR explained that very well (maybe on purpose) and I don't want to revisit the chapter because the scene where Sirius died was too horrible! *sniff* Allyson From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 06:28:11 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:28:11 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: <3F4400FA.4080300@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > Two reasons I cannot buy the rape scene. > > #1. The average centaur would be appalled at the idea of mating with a > human. They can't stand humans and it would be to them like mating with > an animal. > > #2. This is a children's book guys. There's NO WAY that they are going > to include rape in it. And even less chance of non-humans raping humans. > > #3. Centaurs do have access to both magic and there are also many > creatures they could go to for 'punishing Umbridge'. They could tie her > up and leave her for the giant spiders for one. That would unhinge > most people pretty badly. > > Jazmyn Me: Hmm. You said there's no way they would rape her, but have you read the posts describing the mythological character of the centaur? I'll paraphrase: Ancient peoples started the myth about centaurs presumably from seeing soldiers on horses...they had never seen horses before and thought myth came about that the rider and horse were one creature. These soldiers often raped and pilaged. Centaurs (who are all male) could only procreate by impregnating human women. They are depicted carting off screaming women. I'll bet J.K. knows this. And I'm not saying she definitely *did* intend on this scenario, but I think it's likely. She didn't spell it out...like you said, it's a "children's book". But an implied rape is NOT out of the question. You also said that they wouldn't want to mate with humans. This statement in itself is ridiculous, because rape is not having sex, it's an act of violence. Period. James Redmont From sberinsky at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 01:07:50 2003 From: sberinsky at yahoo.com (sberinsky) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 01:07:50 -0000 Subject: new thoughts after rereading SS/PS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78238 The prophecy talks about voldemort marking harry, which I had always taken to mean the scar. In the first book though, Dumbledore refers to Lily marking Harry with her love when she dies to save him. In the fourth book, Voldemort takes some of Harry's own blood, so he can get the residing protection. But it's almost like he's marking himself with something good, wherease Harry is good but marked with evil. Like they compliment each other, and in a very strange way slowly becoming one. In the fifth book, this trend continues, with Harry lapsing into Voldemorts thoughts, and at the end, with Voldemort possessing him. In book two, Harry himself points out how much he is like Tom Riddle. Except where Tom is choosing evil, Harry is choosing good. Opposites. And Harry shows mercy (book three, when he does not allow pettigrew to be killed) wherease Voldemort does not (his ditching Quirrel in book one). The problem with all these theories, is that I cannot tell where it's going. Summarizing, Harry and Voldemort are seeming to become one creation, (I keep thinking of them like a Yin and Yang) but where do we go from here? Stacy From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Thu Aug 21 02:04:14 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 02:04:14 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: She's probably just insensitive to the idea others may > not want their children reading such material. ME (Susan) here: I don't get this remark. These are HER books; she can write them any way she chooses! And the populace can decide whether to read them or not. She "owes" no one anything. > Not uncommon amongst > Christians I find. ME (Susan) here: This next comment isn't necessarily directed at you, but I am getting a little tired of the slams on Christians. "Christians" are a huge group, and not an especially homogenous one. I am one, but I posted earlier about how I believe JKR's books can "work" within all kinds of frameworks--Christian, Good vs. Evil, no god or dogma, etc. I *won't* be upset if we get to the end and she says nothing overt about Christianity. In fact, I think that's part of the beauty of her works--that they can be happily interpreted through so many different worldviews. Siriusly Snapey Susan From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 21 06:53:53 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:53:53 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" > wrote: > > > HOWEVER - the idea that Harry will destroy Voldemort through love > and > > that love is a force within him is NOT a universal theme. It is > very > > Christian. It has nothing at all to do with my beliefs. > James: > First I'd like to say I have a degree in history, concentrated in > the study of Asian cultures and Hindu/Buddhist/Jain religions. > > Now, if you know anything about eastern religion, it is centered > around compassion, which is how they describe the type of love > Christ had for humanity. Buddhists believe those who are very near > to enlightenment can choose to stay behind and help others > (bodhisattvas)...why? Compassion. Hindus believe in the universal > world spirit, which *is* a force, and is contained in everyone. > Dharma - the law, how one should behave...doing what is right, not > what is easy. I could easily write a paper on how Harry Potter's > life is a learning tool for Hindus. It doesn't even matter if she > wrote it purposefully from a Christian view. The whole point of my > post was to point out that most religions are nearly the same when > it comes to their philosophy, and "love" (which is a word, by the > way, and not a v. specific one) is the center of most. Benevolence, > compassion, love, dharma, right thinking...just because you're > familiar with the Christ story, don't think it's the *only* story > like that. A good example? Read the Ramayana. > Geoff: Possibly. But Jesus made it very clear that Christianity /was/ separated from other ideas of God and life. Look at John 3:16 and John 14:6 by way of example. I believe that true Christianity involves the Spirit of God living within a person. It is a personal, inidividual relationship not adherence to a religious orthodoxy or "signing up" to a set of rules like a club. From sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 21 04:14:52 2003 From: sachmet96 at yahoo.co.uk (sachmet96) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:14:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78241 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "flavia_pozzatti" > wrote: > > > > I'm sorry if this subject has been discussed before, but I'm new > here > > and the search engine hasn't helped me. > > > > As I was rereading the final chapters of OoP, a question crossed my > > mind. After checking whether Sirius was OK, how long did it take > > Snape to realise that Harry and the others had gone to the MoM? > > > > I can't help thinking that if Snape had warned the members of the > > Order sooner, the outcome of the battle could have been different. > > I don't have my copy of OOtP at hand but I think he wasn't aware that they had gone to the MOM. How could he? There should have been no way students could have gone there (no Floo and so on). He surely didn't count that they would use Thestrals to fly there. And Dumbledore says he went looking for them in the Forbidden Forest where he (rightly with all the information he had) assumed they were. And he did warn the others of the Order about Harry going missing (Dumbledore explains Snape's role in one of the last chapters). Harry was only too stupid to realize it was a trick of Voldemort and got all the others in danger. If he had stayed at school no one would have gotten hurt. I think the others only knew where he was after he had gone to the Ministry, they surely have some security system in case someone does break into it (what Harry and his friends did ? btw. why is no one accusing them of burglary and being out of school grounds? If I were Fudge I would.). So they went there and as Snape was in the Forest and they could hardly take their own spy with them to rescue Harry from Voldemort, he had to stay away. Sachmet From kkreinke at earthlink.net Thu Aug 21 05:01:56 2003 From: kkreinke at earthlink.net (Darklady) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 05:01:56 -0000 Subject: Possible silly question about Werewolves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78242 I'm sorry if this has been covered , but I searched the posts and couldn't find it. I was listening to my Harry Potter tapes ( unabridged American version ) at work today and was suprised by one line. (Spoiler here - but not for anything recent ) Lupin, in discussing his lycanthropy, says that "they didn't have a cure BACK THEN." (Emphasis obviously my own. ) Would that not imply that there is a cure NOW? If so - why has not Lupin been cured? Is it perhaps like a rabies cure - that is only effective if started before the disease takes hold? When was the cure discovered? Obviously fairly recently. ( At least within Lupin's lifetime.) Would this explain why the Wolfsbane Potion is currently rare? (Because few new werewolves are created - so few would need it. ) What effect would this have on current werewolves? On the laws re: werewolf bites? ( Which - while still dire - would be less terrible if they did not also pass on the curse.) Is this something strange re the Potterverse - or an I misunderstanding? Every fan-fic seems to treat lycanthropy as an ongoing risk, but? Just curious. Thank you. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 07:21:20 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:21:20 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78243 Sachmet wrote: >First of all Lupin is one of my favourite characters but I think he >is too unfair and irresponsible to make a good headmaster. He forgot >to take his wolfsbane potion. I mean he has suffered from being a >werewolf for so long and then he just forgets to take it? That shows >how irresponsible he is imo. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have to step in and say a few things here. I adore Remus Lupin, and think calling him unfair or irresponsible is comepletly unfair. He is not irresponsible for forgetting his potion on that particular night. How would you react in his position. He is looking at map (that he helped create, so he knows it never lies) that shows: A) One of his oldest friends, an escaped "murderer" is on Hogwarts grounds and is using the Shrieking Shack to get onto the grounds. Major guilt for never telling Dumbledore he suspected that's how Black could get on the grounds. (and although I understand Remus's hesitance to lose Dumbledore's trust by telling him about James, Black, and Wormtail becoming animagi, I don't condone it. But I do understand it.) B) Another of his oldest friends is also on Hogwarts grounds. The only problem is HE'S SUPPOSEDLY BEEN DEAD FOR 12 YEARS! The second he realized Pettigrew was alive, it threw everything he knew about James and Lily's deaths into total chaos. It meant everything he had believed for over a decade was comepletly wrong. Not something that can easily be reordered mentally in just a few minutes. Sachmet also wrote: >And he is unfair and unjust to people he doesn't like or who his >friends don't like (he is very influenceable too). He was prefect >but didn't do anything to stop his friends tormenting Snape (and not >on just one occasion, he admits himself somewhere in OOtP, that >Dumbledore made him prefect to keep his friends in line, but he >obviously didn't). Then during POA he didn't stop Harry and his >friend banging Snape's head against the ceiling of the tunnel. This >doesn't speak for his character. I think he couldn't be fair enough >to be a responsible headmaster (even if he is generally a likeable >person) but on the other hand neither is Dumbledore, so maybe we >will see him as headmaster. This is all my opinion of course. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Remus said "I think Dumbledore might have hoped that I would be able to exercise some control over my best friends. I need scarcely say that I failed dismally." (pg 170 US hardcover) and Dumbledore said in SS/PS at the end of term feast "It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends." I think Dumbledore may have made him a prefect *hoping* he might control some of S&J rule breaking, but he probably knew it wasn't very likely. Hogwarts was the first place Remus ever had friends (being a werewolf and all) he wasn't likely to risk losing them by criticizing them too much. (which is not nessecarily weakness of character but teenage human nature) From what we know of MWPP time at Hogwarts (which addmittedly isn't much) Remus seems like the best candidate for prefect in Gryffindor. As for not stopping Black from letting Snape's head scrape the ceiling in the tunnel to the Whomping Willow, he was chained to an injured student and a framing-for-murder spy for Voldemort. He was a bit busy at the moment. Cut him a little slack okay? ~Margaret From subrosax at earthlink.net Thu Aug 21 07:36:53 2003 From: subrosax at earthlink.net (subrosax99) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:36:53 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78244 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > I have a feeling she's NOT missionizing or anything.(Though it smacks > of that to me) She's probably just insensitive to the idea others may > not want their children reading such material. Not uncommon amongst > Christians I find. Many seem to believe their faith is a kind of > universal belief. I wouldn't be surprised if Rowling thought the > same and never considered the issue at all. She doesn't seem > particularly insightful to me on other social issues either. I > wouldn't assume her to be particularly insightful on this one. > Golly I am not a Christian either, and I hate having Christian ideology, particularly the fundementalist sort, rammed down my throught. That being said, I don't understand why you are getting so worked up about the Harry Potter books. Just because I'm not a Christian, doesn't mean I get all hot and bothered when there are Christian themes or symbolism in a book. I'd have missed out on some of the worlds finest literature (and from your previous posts, I gather you know what that is.) I find it absolutely hilarious that you are complaining about JKR's supposed "insensitivity" to your beliefs. You remind me of nothing so much as the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons of the world who are constantly on guard for any sign of creeping secular humanism. I don't care if Snape turns out to be John the Baptist. If these books turn out to be a reflection of JKR's sincere Christian beliefs, so be it. It's not hurting me, and it certainly doesn't hurt children, whatever their religious persuasion. Jeez, you'd think we were talking about the "Left Behind" books or something. By the way, why do you even read the Harry Potter books? If I held your standards, I wouldn't waste my time on crap Christian literature. Allyson From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 07:43:47 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:43:47 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78245 Lana Lovegood: >I can't imagine this without picturing the scene where McGonagall >and Dumbledore are at the Dursleys in PS/SS awaiting Harry's >arrival. If McGonagall is a blood relative of Harry's, why wouldn't >SHE have taken him in and thus sealed the "ancient magic" that >protects Harry? Furthermore, it seems she would have known more >about what was happening at the point Harry was brought to the >Dursleys...as I recall she seemed pretty clueless and was asking DD >for specifics. It had to be a blood relative of Lily's for the protection to work, because Lily is the parent that sacrificed herself for Harry. Even if she was related to James (which I doubt, Barb's right, she would have at least asked about taking him) it would not have fulfilled the requirements of the spell. ~Margaret From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 08:07:42 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:07:42 -0000 Subject: new thoughts after rereading SS/PS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sberinsky" wrote: > The prophecy talks about voldemort marking harry, which I had always > taken to mean the scar. In the first book though, Dumbledore refers > to Lily marking Harry with her love when she dies to save him. In > the fourth book, Voldemort takes some of Harry's own blood, so he > can get the residing protection. But it's almost like he's marking > himself with something good, wherease Harry is good but marked with > evil. Like they compliment each other, and in a very strange way > slowly becoming one. In the fifth book, this trend continues, with > Harry lapsing into Voldemorts thoughts, and at the end, with > Voldemort possessing him. > > In book two, Harry himself points out how much he is like Tom > Riddle. Except where Tom is choosing evil, Harry is choosing good. > Opposites. And Harry shows mercy (book three, when he does not > allow pettigrew to be killed) wherease Voldemort does not (his > ditching Quirrel in book one). > > The problem with all these theories, is that I cannot tell where > it's going. Summarizing, Harry and Voldemort are seeming to become > one creation, (I keep thinking of them like a Yin and Yang) but > where do we go from here? > > Stacy Mlle Bienvenu: You know, I've had a theory about that. I haven't really fleshed it out. There really isn't a lot of supporting canon. But maybe other people will have some thoughts on it. To me, LV's motivation has always been his fear of death. I think more than love of power and recognition, the fear of dying has motivated him. What he says to DD in OotP confirms my belief "What could be worse than death?" (I paraphrase) Also look at the things he's done; he's preserved himself in a diary, he's taken precautions which allowed him to become a 'shade' when his curse blows up in his face, he's not only been reborn, but reborn in such a way as to allow some protection from his mortal enemy. By the time Harry was born, LV was already an old man nearing the end of his life. What if Voldemort wasn't trying to kill Harry, but transfer his own soul into Harry's body? (and in essence, become young again) But something backfired and stopped the process (probably something to do with Lily) This would explain the mental connection between LV and Harry, and why Harry's got the same gifts LV has got, and also why LV chose Harry, who was most like him, in looks and in background. It would also explain the vagueness of the whole situation. The books never said specifically that it was an AK Harry saw. And even though everyone's said LV was trying to kill Harry, the soul transferring spell may have killed him anyway. (two scenarios, it's a soul-tranferring spell which basically shoves the other person's soul out, or it's a soul-switching spell which would put harry in LV's body and LV in Harry's body. Both cases effectivly kill Harry, as far as I can see.) Eh, I don't know. I've been toying with the idea for some time, just thought I get it out there. Mlle Bienvenu From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Aug 21 09:51:51 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 09:51:51 -0000 Subject: Re. Gilderoy Lockhart's Guide to Household Pests Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78247 Thanks for all the excellent explanations of a stupid point that was worrying me. I especially like the idea that Molly would have continued to use the book but would have binned the dustcover. She wouldn't want to be reminded that she once at a girly crush on the creep. From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 21 10:04:35 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:04:35 -0000 Subject: new thoughts after rereading SS/PS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78248 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mlle_bienvenu" wrote: Stacy: > > The prophecy talks about voldemort marking harry, which I had > always > > taken to mean the scar. In the first book though, Dumbledore > refers > > to Lily marking Harry with her love when she dies to save him. In > > the fourth book, Voldemort takes some of Harry's own blood, so he > > can get the residing protection. But it's almost like he's marking > > himself with something good, wherease Harry is good but marked with > > evil. Like they compliment each other, and in a very strange way > > slowly becoming one. In the fifth book, this trend continues, with > > Harry lapsing into Voldemorts thoughts, and at the end, with > > Voldemort possessing him. > > > > In book two, Harry himself points out how much he is like Tom > > Riddle. Except where Tom is choosing evil, Harry is choosing > good. > > Opposites. And Harry shows mercy (book three, when he does not > > allow pettigrew to be killed) wherease Voldemort does not (his > > ditching Quirrel in book one). > > > > The problem with all these theories, is that I cannot tell where > > it's going. Summarizing, Harry and Voldemort are seeming to become > > one creation, (I keep thinking of them like a Yin and Yang) but > > where do we go from here? > > Mlle Bienvenu: You know, I've had a theory about that. I haven't > really fleshed it out. There really isn't a lot of supporting canon. > But maybe other people will have some thoughts on it. > > To me, LV's motivation has always been his fear of death. I think > more than love of power and recognition, the fear of dying has > motivated him. What he says to DD in OotP confirms my belief "What > could be worse than death?" (I paraphrase) Also look at the things > he's done; he's preserved himself in a diary, he's taken precautions > which allowed him to become a 'shade' when his curse blows up in his > face, he's not only been reborn, but reborn in such a way as to allow > some protection from his mortal enemy. > > By the time Harry was born, LV was already an old man nearing the end > of his life. What if Voldemort wasn't trying to kill Harry, but > transfer his own soul into Harry's body? (and in essence, become > young again) But something backfired and stopped the process > (probably something to do with Lily) This would explain the mental > connection between LV and Harry, and why Harry's got the same gifts > LV has got, and also why LV chose Harry, who was most like him, in > looks and in background. It would also explain the vagueness of the > whole situation. The books never said specifically that it was an AK > Harry saw. And even though everyone's said LV was trying to kill > Harry, the soul transferring spell may have killed him anyway. (two > scenarios, it's a soul-tranferring spell which basically shoves the > other person's soul out, or it's a soul-switching spell which would > put harry in LV's body and LV in Harry's body. Both cases effectivly > kill Harry, as far as I can see.) > > Eh, I don't know. I've been toying with the idea for some time, just > thought I get it out there. > > Mlle Bienvenu Geoff: Re the scar matter in PS. Quote 1: Inside, just visible, was a baby boy, fast asleep. Under a tuft of jet-black hair over his forehead, they could see a curiously shaped cut, like a bolt of lightning. "Is that where -?" whispered Professor McGonagall. "Yes", said Dumbledore. "He'll have that scar for ever." "Couldn't you do something about it Dumbledore?" "Even if I could, I wouldn't....." (pp.15-16) Quote 2: "But why couldn't Quirrell touch me?" "Your mother died to save you. If there is one thing Voldemort cannot undestand, it is love. He didn't realise that love so powerful as your mother's for you leaves its own mark. Not a scar, no visible sign.... to have been loved so deeply, even though the person who loved us is gone, will give us some protection for ever. It is in your very skin....." (p.216 both quotes Bloomsbury UK edition) Re the different choices HP and Tom Riddle made, it reminds me of the different paths chosen by Gandalf and Saruman in LOTR, both from the same background. From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 10:31:34 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:31:34 -0000 Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunachapter10" wrote: > > Sweaters with protection charms built in, I love that theory. I think > the socks represent being happy with the simple things in life, maybe? > > Actually, I was just thinking lately about taking up knitting as a > relaxing past-time when I am not contemplating Potterverse. I know the > dragon and lion sweaters are probably extremely complicated, would it > be too hard for a beginner to do a Hogwarts scarf or even a Weasley > sweater? Last Halloween my son went as Harry Potter. Got the costume but it only came with the robe and glasses and wand. I did knit the Griffindor scarf. Basically it's knit a row and purl a row in the colors. As to the exact number of rows, I used at least twenty rows for each of the colors on a size 8 needle. That might help. But I really want the designs for all those lovely sweaters Dan Radcliffe wears in the movies. (Not the Weasly ones) D From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Thu Aug 21 07:40:23 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:40:23 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78250 Tara wrote: > I was just wondering what you thought about Sirius seeming to > confuse Harry for James in book 5. Ah, I'm glad that I saw this!! I was about to mention this as well. Both Snape and Sirius made this mistake, but as polar opposites. Snape hates Harry because he sees James in him, and Sirius *loves* Harry because of this,and yes, he wants his best friend back. I do suppose that thought is what kept him going all those years. He saw Harry as a baby,and while he might not have known James since that time, and didnt know that Harry might wear specs, I'm sure he *knew* that Harry would *be* like James. The fact that he isn't, shocked him. However, both Snape and Sirius apparently don't really understand how Harry was raised. He wasn't raised by James and Lily, therefore he *can't* be like them. Yes, he will have some of their genetic traits, but he grew up in a miserable enviroment. The fact that he isn't a serial killer is a miracle. It is also true that while most of us don't like how he's acting in the current book, its actually truer to how he should be acting all the time, considering how he was treated as a kid. I'm curious to learn what all occured between Snape and James prior to the little scene, as I think they have a really involved backstory, and something must've set them off early on. Jeff From aamonn2000 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 10:58:12 2003 From: aamonn2000 at yahoo.com (aamonn2000) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:58:12 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (was Umbridge a Half-Breed ?) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78251 Matt wrote : > > Conversely, an assault would contradict much of what > > we have heard about the centaurs' moral principles. > What have we really learned about their moral principles ? Besides, are those principles conscientiously applied ? From what I've already read I must say that I can't really judge. > > It would be an act of abuse, inconsistent with the > > Centaurs' rejection of evil (and good). It would be > > a supreme act of interference with the affairs of > > humans. Well, in fact, I had the impression that from the centaurs' POV the interference was H, H and Umbridge's fault. It was the three of them who broke into the centaur's territory inside the forbidden forest. Thus, it appeared to me that the latter were so enraged that the problem "to interfer or not to interfer with the affairs of humans" had somehow already been solved. There are no longer any *humans affairs* inside the centaurs' territory in the depths of the forbidden forest (something that has been noticed in quite similar terms by a previous poster). > > It would treat Umbridge as a means rather than an end, just what > > the centaurs blamed Hermione for doing to them. I'm sorry but IMHO their behaviour had nothing to do with some kind of kantian ethics (if this is what you were referring to, of course ; otherwise, please don't take in account that remark). On the contrary, they did what they did out of pride, resentment, anger, etc., not because they were following any peculiar form of ethics. > > I can believe that the centaurs would imprison > > Umbridge, and would use physical force if she tried > > to escape; I can even believe that they might kill > > her out of random violence; but rape strikes a > > chord that is out of tune with the rest of their > > behavior. I still cannot follow you here for the simple reason that not all the centaurs behave like Firenze does. In fact, his own attitude - compassionate, full of nobleness, etc. - fits to be sure the traditional imagery that belongs to our representation of what a centaur should be (1), but it certainly doesn't properly describe his peers' behaviour. Remember that they almost killed Firenze (nothing less than a half-giant like Hagrid was necessary to save him) and Harry, Hermione and Umbridge as well (a real giant this time was necessary to save H and H). Actually we don't really know what they are capable of doing. Thus, the problem is not : "The centaurs can't do that, that's just too horrible." No. The real problem is "Can *JKR* do that ?" Let's hypothesize that the answer is "yes". Then it raises difficult questions. Here are some of these questions : Can JKR write about such a horrible event without mentioning it overtly ? without referring to the person to whom it was inflicted as a victim ? Can she still poke fun at Umbridge as though nothing hadreally happened ? Can she instil the idea, inside her readers' mind,that it's a well- founded punishement owing to Umbridge's overall attitude ? And last (not really in fact) but not least, we know that JKR usually gives hints more than she actually describes things in their crudeness, sometimes even leading her to a kind of "euphemised" way of writing. Do you think her style is appropriate for such a topic ? AAm. (1) However, many posters have noticed that centaurs have often been depicted as very lusful creatures (they had a really bad reputation in the Greek mythology, except Chiron, whose equivalent in HP is Firenze - note that Firenze is a teacher just like Chiron was, and also that the two of them have non-centaurs students). From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 11:22:51 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <34.3e1630e9.2c75bc98@aol.com> Message-ID: <20030821112251.73708.qmail@web12204.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78252 It's also quite possible he was not invited to the picture. If they already knew there was a Voldie spy within the order, why would they compromise their spy by letting him into a picture? That would be pure proof to Voldie. Chris --- IAmLordCassandra at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/21/2003 2:04:00 AM Eastern > Daylight Time, > midgetsattack67 at yahoo.com writes: > > > > > shokoono at g... writes: > > > > > > > Rereading OoP I got caught by the scene Moody > is showing a > > photograph of > > > > the > > > > original Order at the "prefect party". He > showed Harry everybody > > on it... > > > > but there was no Snape! > > > > Did he not join yet? Was he already working > for DD but was not > > in it > > > > officially, because of the traitor within the > Order? Had he > > already changed > > > > sides? > > > > > > > Maybe snape joined the order after the photograph > was made > > Or maybe he just didn't want to be in the > photograph. > > ~cassie~ > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 11:40:56 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:40:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78253 > However, both Snape and Sirius apparently don't really > understand how Harry was raised. He wasn't raised by James and Lily, > therefore he *can't* be like them. Yes, he will have some of their > genetic traits, but he grew up in a miserable enviroment. The fact > that he isn't a serial killer is a miracle. It is also true that > while most of us don't like how he's acting in the current book, its > actually truer to how he should be acting all the time, considering > how he was treated as a kid. > > Jeff This is very true. JKR has kept Harry's reactions true to his age and how he was raised. I was quite impressed at how she accomplished this. Anyone in Harry's position would be angry most of the time. He doesn't really know a loving environment and has to deal with that. He has only just begun to learn how to handle people who care deeply for him. It's no wonder his anger bubbles so quickly to the surface. It has through all the books. Notice how he reacts to the Dursleys. That sniping carries over into his relationships at school. Although he is softening in his close relationships, he still has problems with authority. And even that problem is totally in character with a 15 year old. D From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 11:37:33 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 04:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sit Down, Ron (a filk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030821113733.68572.qmail@web12206.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78254 *Applause and ovation* Chris --- Haggridd wrote: > If you liked this filk, and as I see that you are > famililiar with > 1776, the musical, please allow me to present a > half-dozen other > filks of songs from the Broadway show. Read them or > not as you > please. > > Yours in HP fellowship, > Haggridd > ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 12:16:27 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:16:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78255 > Tara wrote: > > > I was just wondering what you thought about Sirius seeming to > > confuse Harry for James in book 5. > > Jeff wrote: > Ah, I'm glad that I saw this!! I was about to mention this as well. > Both Snape and Sirius made this mistake, but as polar opposites. > Snape hates Harry because he sees James in him, and Sirius *loves* > Harry because of this,and yes, he wants his best friend back. > Laura: If I may be so immodest as to quote myself from a tbay post earlier today: if you look at it from his POV, you can see where he had good reasons to think that Harry really was like James. Think about it: whenever Sirius encounters Harry, Harry shows bravery, audacity, leadership, intelligence and resourcefulness (in the Shack and during the Tournament in particular). Harry, like James, is absolutely loyal to his best friends and he detests the dark arts and everything about them. If Sirius and Harry had had the chance to live together under normal circumstances, in which neither one of them was under emotional pressure, Sirius would have come to see that Harry was his own person. As it is, it seems natural and reasonable enough for Sirius to identify in Harry qualities that he valued in his best friend-we're always looking for our friends in their children. What do you think? As for Snape, he had decided that Harry was James redux before ever meeting him, and nothing Harry could have done would have changed his mind. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 21 12:30:41 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:30:41 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ - other beliefs (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78256 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "subrosax99" wrote: > I am not a Christian either, and I hate having Christian ideology, > particularly the fundementalist sort, rammed down my throught. That > being said, I don't understand why you are getting so worked up about > the Harry Potter books. Just because I'm not a Christian, doesn't > mean I get all hot and bothered when there are Christian themes or > symbolism in a book. I'd have missed out on some of the worlds finest > literature (and from your previous posts, I gather you know what that > is.) I think the Christian themes in the HP books are a natural outgrowth of the author's beliefs; naturally, she's going to write about what she thinks is true and strong. But I don't think it's a surreptitious way of brainwashing unsuspecting children - it's just what Rowling thinks. I'm a Christian myself, and the first time I read the books I don't think I noticed any Christian overtones at all. After a while I spotted a few, and then it became a bit like an Easter egg hunt, to try to find more. I think they're starting to get more noticeable, but it remains to be seen if Rowling sticks with this trend. The thing about seeing it from a Christian perspective is that it can embrace all sorts of things that are not obviously orthodox Christianity. One example, which I just discovered by doing a quick web search, is the significance of Harry's birthday. It's been noted that he was born on Lammas, and important Wiccan festival. So I looked it up and found this description of the event: "The turning of the wheel now brings us to Lughnasadh (LOO-nus-uh), also known by its medieval Christian name of Lammas, named in honor of the Celtic god Lugh, a name which means "light" or "shining." Although somewhat confusing, we are not celebrating the death of Lugh (the God of light does not mythically die until the autumn equinox), but rather the funeral games that Lugh hosted to commemorate the death of his foster mother, Taillte....Lughnasadh is the first of the three harvest Sabbats, Mabon and Samhain being the other two, which celebrates the ripening grains and corn. With the harvest so prevalent, Pagans see the theme of the sacrificed god motif emerge. His death is necessary for rebirth of the land to take place. Called by many names, "Green Man," "Wicker Man," "Corn Man" or just the "Spirit of Vegetation," his essence begins to merge with the harvested crops, a sacrifice that will be realized with the new growth in the spring. In old times, it was the duty of the King to sacrifice himself for the land, an idea that has been seen in the many legends of cultures both new and old, throughout recorded history." Etc., and more interesting stuff. Now, none of this is Christian at all, but a Christian reader will be able to read it as a sort of "premonition" of the bigger story of Christ's sacrifice. But it's a perfectly good theme all on its own, and it's widespread in lots of other cultures. (Actually, the part that struck me was the fact that this festival marks the death of a mother! That's not Christian at all, but it ties in very nicely with the HP story. I'd like to hear more about that, if there are some Wiccan list members who can fill us in.) Wanda From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 21 12:45:39 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:45:39 -0000 Subject: Possible silly question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78257 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Darklady" wrote: > I'm sorry if this has been covered , but I searched the posts and > couldn't find it. > > I was listening to my Harry Potter tapes ( unabridged American > version ) at work today and was suprised by one line. > > (Spoiler here - but not for anything recent ) > > Lupin, in discussing his lycanthropy, says that "they didn't have a > cure BACK THEN." (Emphasis obviously my own. ) Would that > not imply that there is a cure NOW? If so - why has not Lupin > been cured? Is it perhaps like a rabies cure - that is only effective > if started before the disease takes hold? When was the cure > discovered? Obviously fairly recently. ( At least within Lupin's > lifetime.) Would this explain why the Wolfsbane Potion is > currently rare? (Because few new werewolves are created - so > few would need it. ) What effect would this have on current > werewolves? On the laws re: werewolf bites? ( Which - while still > dire - would be less terrible if they did not also pass on the > curse.) > > Is this something strange re the Potterverse - or an I > misunderstanding? Every fan-fic seems to treat lycanthropy as > an ongoing risk, but? Just curious. > > Thank you. Hi, In OOP Mr. Weasley refers to a person in St. Mungos "Bitten by a werewolf, poor chap. No cure at all." So even now there is no cure. I think in the book you were listening to they meant that when Remus was bitten there was no "treatment" either. Susan From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 12:48:32 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 12:48:32 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78258 > > Talisman,swooped in and said: > > I believe Snape told DD. Snape was the only one in a position to do so. This is one of the many reasons I have for believing Aide- de-Camp!Snape was, once again, on the job (for DD) saving Harry. > > > James Redmont: > Yeah, I guess he could have used legilimency to do it, but he didn't *see* it...he said he didn't. This was already posted. Go upthread. > James Talisman, tucking one of the Weasley Twins new Marauders Maps, version 2.0, under her arm responds: Thank you very much James, but not only have I been upthread, I've got my own copy of the book and I can read page 387. I still say it was Snape, and I wasn't going to resort to Legilimency to answer everything (though it does come in handy now and then doesn't it?) I'm not sure why you think Fudge enjoys Snape's confidence. I don't happen to think Fudge is in DD/Snape's inner circle, so Snape's not going to tell Fudge what really happened. Especially when Snape has worked so hard to free Sirius without clearing his name. In fine I don't think Snape is telling Fudge the truth. You can go way upstream and read bluesqueak/Gray Wolf's SPY GAMES/MAGIC DISHWASHER posts, and you can wonder about events for yourself. For example: Why would Snape, who has been brewing up, not to mention personally serving, Lupin's werewolf-safety potion all term 1)go to Lupin's office with a gobletful, 2)see on the Marauder's Map that Lupin is heading for his safe house, on the night of a full moon, 3) decide to go after Lupin (although Snape knows the Shrieking Shack was built specifically for Lupin's werewolf use) and yet 3) not bring any potion with him? Why does Snape reveal himself before Sirius and Co. discuss any new business? Like what they plan to do next, etc. He already knew the prank story. Why does he bind and GAG Lupin in the Shack, but not Sirius? Why doesn't Snape follow through on his threat to have the dementors "kiss" Sirius when they are all out there in the night together? ("Up to the castle? . . . I don't think we need to go that far. All I have to do is call the dementors . . . [t]hey'll be . . . pleased enough to give you a little kiss, I daresay ...") (360) Why does he shout down Hermione every time she tries to explain (in the Shack or the Hospital wing). Do you really believe that Snape can control his emotions enough to prevent even Voldemort from reading his "thoughts and feelings," but has to freak-out and scream every time Hermione wants to say that Pettigrew is alive? Who else was there to deflect the dementors the first time through? Why doesn't Snape want HRH to be punished for knocking him out and giving him that "nasty cut" on the head? (386) You either believe that DD, with Snape's help, is controlling the situation, or you believe in coincidence and that "DD just knows some things." If you decide to go with coincidence, you're on your own as to how Snape knows the dementor's tried to kiss Harry. Talisman, who wonders if that potion is good for cranky people, too. From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 21 13:20:13 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:20:13 -0000 Subject: Who is Dumbledore? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78259 Hi, I did search posts but couldn't find this.....If Dumbledore knows everything that is going on then how did he not know there were three unregistered animagi running around Hogwart? Why did he not know that Moody was not Moody? Why did he need Veritaserum when he did discover Barty/Moody? Does he have selective knowledge the same way some people (especially kids) have selective hearing? It is very confusing to me to really get a sense of who Dumbledore is and what his intentions are when one minute he already knows what is going on and what is going to happen and the next minute he is clueless. He also knew of the DA but didn't know they called themselves "Dumbledore's Army"? Susan who is on an emotional rollercoaster when it comes to Dumbledore. From chspnll at pacific.net.in Thu Aug 21 13:38:14 2003 From: chspnll at pacific.net.in (saieditor) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:38:14 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ and other observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78260 Wanda wrote, with great wisdom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think the Christian themes in the HP books are a natural outgrowth of the author's beliefs; naturally, she's going to write about what she thinks is true and strong. But I don't think it's a surreptitious way of brainwashing unsuspecting children - it's just what Rowling thinks. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >From what I read in one or two interviews, JKR has stated she is a Christian, and basically put a no comment [or a stop here, go no further] on her beliefs and their relationship to the narrative in the HP books and books to come. This has me speculating, particularly in the light of adamant replies by JKR to interviews that Sirius "is not coming back" in any shape or form. I thought Nearly Headless Nick made that clear also, in the uncomfortable conversation with Harry prior to the Leaving Feast. I am speculating now about Voldy's statement to Harry in SS, 'there is no good nor evil, only power'. This raises a further problem in that due Harry's absorption with dreams about doors and corridors, we now have a theme of mind possession, or possession of consciousness, which, in some part, has to be resolved before any conflict. I dont think Harry, in this vulnerable state, will be in any final face to face conflict with Voldy. How could he? Some one will have to take up the gauntlet to prod Harry into further Occlumens lessons or teach him new stategies to protect his mind. I have noted carefully the absence of any overt Christian themes or structures, (as someone else mentioned, there is no chapel, the main feast is the Yule Ball, and the exchange of presents)so this, without reading too much into it, simply reflects where most people are with Christmas. Where I come from, it is nothing but an opportunity for adverting, marketing, Santa commercials ad nauseum, and I am generally sick of the commercialisation of Christmas. I digress. Life after death is obviously going to be explored further in terms of how the Wizarding World copes with this. Wizards obviously live longer, and the Department of Mysteries obviously holds the teachings that the students at Hogwarts have yet to be exposed to about life after death, thank you Nearly Headless Nick for starting the conversation. Noting the absence of any overt Christian themes or symbology, In General, I can only come back to Dumbledore and his statement to Fudge, people are defined by their choices, and experience the consequences of their choices. In that, there is no difference between the Muggle world and the Wizarding World. What does seem strikingly odd to me is that there is some glaring gaps in morality in the Wizarding World regarding the acts of some of the characters. Take Doris Umbridge. Now the narrative portrayed her as a cruel person. I reckon she is possessed by Voldy, and I reckon that comes when she holds Harry's hand and this feeling of happiness came over Harry. For instance, in a rather LARGE moral slippage, she set Dementors onto Harry. How? Who authorised this? Voldemort, I reckon. She made quills carve into his hand. Fudge apparently has been taking Lucius's money for years. Ludo Bagman cheated on Fred and George, paying them with Leprechaun Gold, and is fleeing goblins. Apparently he owes money everywhere. Viktor used a crucio curse on Cedric in the Triwizard Tournament. Kakaroff was coaching Viktor to use avada kedavra in the Triwizard tournament. (If I am wrong, someone correct me). Take the duel in COS. Draco fires a spell at Harry on "two" instead of three. There were all these slips of integrity and morality in all the HP books and they bother me considerably. Perhaps JKR is just showing us what people are like, and how people attain what it is they desire. However, nothing gets in the way of them experiencing the consequences of their choices. As Dumbledore points out, as the twig is bent, so the tree is shaped. All these slips of morality point to the absence of Christian norms for this narrative. As for Harry being a Christ figure, well, Christ figures are generally fictional persons who give a life in order that others go free. Cool Hand Luke was one such christ figure, and there are plenty of others in movies and books. Seems to me that Harry is busy trying to stay alive, rather than to sacrifice his life. I am not yet convinced that Dumbledore is referring to LOVE as the great mystery locked behind that door in the Department of Mysteries. I think there is another surprise coming about that. I dont see an overt Christian myth or theme coming out, if JKR has completely closed the door on Sirius coming back. Ther is nothing Christian about being possessed by evil and defeated by evil if that is what you want to call Voldemort. Chris Parnell From tminton at deckerjones.com Thu Aug 21 13:35:21 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 08:35:21 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE2487CC@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78261 Bohcoo, amid a big case of creeps: Yah-arghh-h. Good point. I wondered why he was so fascinated with the foe glass reflection myself. Snip Now Me (Tonya) OH MY GOSH I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT!!! No one in their right mind would continue having greasy hair IF they actually SAW it in a mirror. BLUK how ugly is that?? You wouldn't know if you didn't see it!! I am on board with the vampire theory!! Tonya, also having a big case of the creeps!! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 21 13:55:54 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:55:54 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ and other observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78262 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saieditor" wrote: > Wanda wrote, with great wisdom > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > I think the Christian themes in the HP books are a natural > outgrowth of the author's beliefs; naturally, she's going to write > about what she thinks is true and strong. But I don't think it's a > surreptitious way of brainwashing unsuspecting children - it's just > what Rowling thinks. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > > From what I read in one or two interviews, JKR has stated she is a > Christian, and basically put a no comment [or a stop here, go no > further] on her beliefs and their relationship to the narrative in > the HP books and books to come. > > > Noting the absence of any overt Christian themes or symbology, In > General, I can only come back to Dumbledore and his statement to > Fudge, people are defined by their choices, and experience the > consequences of their choices. In that, there is no difference > between the Muggle world and the Wizarding World. What does seem > strikingly odd to me is that there is some glaring gaps in morality > in the Wizarding World regarding the acts of some of the characters. > > > Viktor used a crucio curse on Cedric in the Triwizard Tournament. > > Just to stand up for the poor guy, Viktor Krum was under the Imperius Curse (from Moody!Crouch) when he used the Cruciatus Curse on Cedric. (GOF p.588 Bloomsbury UK edition) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 14:02:29 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:02:29 -0000 Subject: The Power - need info Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78263 Most people on this list seem to have agreed that Harry's special power is Love. But does it specifically say so anywhere ? Del From christianrooster at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 14:16:28 2003 From: christianrooster at hotmail.com (Mark) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:16:28 -0000 Subject: 13 to a table defense - Ginny was the first to rise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78264 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drago9nine" > >...right before Sirius stands up, I believe > > we see Ginny sitting on the floor playing with Crookshanks. > Doesn't > > that mean she had to have gotten up from the table before Sirius > > stands? > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote in reply: > Good catch - pg. 87 US edition "Ginny, who had lured Crookshanks out > from under the dresser, was sitting cross-legged on the floor..." > > This is right before the argument about what Harry should be told > regarding the Order. If I understand this argument, it's that Ginny must have gotten up from the table in order to sit on the floor with Crookshanks? I don't buy that because we don't know when Molly sits down (during dinner she was serving, it would seem). The question in my mind is "is sitting on the floor sitting "at" the table"? If not, then Sirius's standing up didn't really mean anything (it could have been a red herring). If it is, it would explain the strange exchange where when Sirius stands up, Someone tells him sharply to sit down, and then molly was trembling and Sirius was "White". Why was Molly trembling? Was she truly afraid of Sirius? I see no other evidence. Now Whiteness is normally a reaction from fear - he was angry before (red face), was he fearful because he lost his temper or because he broke a taboo? Mark From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 14:19:05 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:19:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Rape (Was Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030821141905.24804.qmail@web20007.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78265 > > Me: > > Hmm. You said there's no way they would rape her, > but have you read > the posts describing the mythological character of > the centaur? > I'll paraphrase: > > Ancient peoples started the myth about centaurs > presumably from > seeing soldiers on horses...they had never seen > horses before and > thought myth came about that the rider and horse > were one creature. > These soldiers often raped and pilaged. > > Centaurs (who are all male) could only procreate by > impregnating > human women. They are depicted carting off > screaming women. > > I'll bet J.K. knows this. And I'm not saying she > definitely *did* > intend on this scenario, but I think it's likely. > She didn't spell > it out...like you said, it's a "children's book". > But an implied > rape is NOT out of the question. > > You also said that they wouldn't want to mate with > humans. This > statement in itself is ridiculous, because rape is > not having sex, > it's an act of violence. Period. > > James Redmont > > In mythology centaurs were also drunken and lewd and had nothing to do with astrology. Doesn't sound much like JKR's centaurs to me. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From catherinemck at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 14:36:23 2003 From: catherinemck at hotmail.com (catherinemckiernan) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:36:23 -0000 Subject: Filk: We are the Sister Black Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78266 A filk to Three Little Maids from The Mikado by Gilbert and Sullivan Dedicated to trios of sisters everywhere; which Black girl are you? See, it really is best being the eldest. Enter the young Bellatrix, Andromeda and Narcissa Black, all three wearing kimonos and twirling Japanese fans. Bellatrix has managed to make her outfit very close-fitting and slightly kinky if you like that kind of thing, Narcissa looks demure, and Andromeda pregnant. THE THREE Three little sisters Black are we, Born of a pure-blood family, Filled to the brim with wizardry, We are the sisters Black! BELLATRIX Everything is a source of fun, (Crucio!) NARCISSA Nobody's safe once she's begun, (nervous giggle) ANDROMEDA She uses Dark Arts we should shun! (throws up) THE THREE We are the sisters Black! Three magic sisters, we are sure we Are at the heart of this long story, Bound to our fate be it good or gory - We are the sisters Black! We are the sisters Black! NARCISSA One sister dear has a bride's gown donned, BELLATRIX All for the lure of his magic wand! ANDROMEDA I still think it's weird that she's a blonde. THE THREE We are the sisters Black! We are the sisters Black! NARCISSA >From three sisters now take one away BELLATRIX She has our pure-blood house betrayed ANDROMEDA Only Imperius could make me stay! THE THREE We are the sisters Black! We are the sisters Black! Three magic sisters, we are sure we Are at the heart of this long story, Bound for a fate be it good or gory - We are the sisters Black! We are the sisters Black! Catherine McK From ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 21 14:30:02 2003 From: ibotsjfvxfst at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?Ivan=20Vablatsky?=) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:30:02 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Power - need info In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030821143002.14051.qmail@web21506.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78267 --- Doriane wrote: --------------------------------- Most people on this list seem to have agreed that Harry's special power is Love. But does it specifically say so anywhere ? Del Hans in Holland writes: No it doesn't. But JK Rowling said in the Albert Hall interview about the force: "We all know what that is". In other words it's so obvious it doesn't need saying. I certainly don't have the slightest doubt. It's made clear at the moment when Voldemort is invading Harry's mind, that what Harry feels at that moment, and what drives Voldemort out, is love for Sirius. ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/ From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 14:47:09 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:47:09 -0000 Subject: Possible silly question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Darklady" > > > Lupin, in discussing his lycanthropy, says that "they didn't have a > > cure BACK THEN." (Emphasis obviously my own. ) Would that > > not imply that there is a cure NOW? If so - why has not Lupin > > been cured? Is it perhaps like a rabies cure - that is only > effective > > if started before the disease takes hold? "S Handel" wrote: Hi, > In OOP Mr. Weasley refers to a person in St. Mungos "Bitten by a > werewolf, poor chap. No cure at all." So even now there is no cure. > I think in the book you were listening to they meant that when Remus > was bitten there was no "treatment" either. > Susan Laura: I wonder if there's a vaccine kids can take to prevent the onset of lycanthropy in later life. That would explain Lupin's "in those days" remark, and if the guy in the hospital hadn't gotten the vaccine, that would explain why there's no cure for him. I know that a vaccine isn't a cure per se, but it's close. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 15:27:12 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:27:12 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78269 I've been thinking about it right from the moment I read DD's explanation of Harry's "special power" : OoP, chapter 37 : 'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries that is kept locked at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart that saved you.' Can you see how the word "love", or anything else for that matter, is not mentioned a single time ? Knowing JKR the way we know her, that should signal "Beware ! Trap !" We all think of love right away, and I think this is *precisely* what she *wants* us to think of ! But she never ever mentions it. So I think that power is not love at all. Let's see : -it's a power that is so special that the room where it is studied has to be locked at all times : why would anyone want to keep people out of the Love room ? In my idea, it should even be a room where everyone should be made to go once in a while : it would make the world a much nicer place :-) - it is a power more wonderful and more terrible than death : love is more wonderful than death, all right, but more terrible ?? - it's a mysterious power - Harry possesses lots of that power, and Voldemort none : I agree that Voldemort doesn't love, but I don't see Harry as being so full of love. He's full of many emotions, but love doesn't strike me as one of the most prominent ones. - it's the power that took Harry to save Sirius : it isn't love in itself that made Harry go to the MoM, but his desire to help him, his hope to save him. - it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't reside in a body full of it : Voldemort doesn't hate love. He doesn't understand it, he despises it, but he doesn't hate it. So what could that power be ? I'm not sure, but one possibility would be Hope. Not just hope that I'll get rich tomorrow, but Hope that things will turn out all right in the end. A Hope bordering on Faith, to use a Christian terminology. You see : -it's a power that is so special that the room where it is studied has to be locked at all times : remember what happens to people when they are faced with the Mirror of Erised ? They get fascinated by it. Some even waste their whole life away looking into it. I think it would be the same with a Hope room : people would get trapped into it, because they would feel so much hope in it, that the outside world would seem unbearably desperate to them. - it is a power more wonderful and more terrible than death : because he's got this hope of seeing Sirius again when he dies, Harry is ready to sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort. As such, it is more wonderful than death. But for other people who hope for what they can't ever obtain, it is more terrible than death, but it makes them live an excruciating nightmare every single day of their lives. - it's a mysterious power : why do many people hope for things when everything seems to tell them those things will never come true, that is a mystery indeed. - Harry possesses lots of that power, and Voldemort none : Harry always had a lot of hope, he keeps thinking he can get out of the trickiest and deadliest situations and that something will happen to turn a desperate situation around. That's why he's always trying, always acting, because he's got this hope that in the end things will turn out right if he gives his best. But LV doesn't have any Hope. He's got small desires, for sure, but no real hope for anything. He wants what he knows he can obtain, but he doesn't have any hope for a better life. - it's the power that took Harry to save Sirius : as I already said, it was his hope to save Sirius that took Harry all the way to the MoM. He kept hoping against reason that Sirius was still alive and that he, Harry, would somehow free him from Voldemort. - it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't reside in a body full of it : it was the joy Harry felt at the idea of seeing Sirius again that kicked LV out of Harry's body. And that joy came from that deep hope that Harry nurtured, that the people who go through the veil are still alive somewhere somehow. Moreover, Hope is the worst enemy of any tyrant : as long as people keep hoping that things can get better, they can't be crushed. They can be isolated, tortured, or whatever, as long as they have hope, they keep fighting. So for someone like Voldemort, Hope would be the worst feeling people can feel, because it keeps them fighting against him, no matter how powerful he gets. So what do you think ? Am I completely off-track or what ? Shoot away ! Del From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 15:36:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:36:24 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78270 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" > > wrote: > > > > How did Fudge know the dementors tried to Kiss Harry? > James Redmont said: > > DD told him, I'll bet. How did DD know? He knows everything, > > doesn't he? > > Talisman,swoops in to say: > > I believe Snape told DD. Snape was the only one in a position to do > so. > > ...edited... > > Talisman, bboy_mn: Here is a wild and crazy idea, maybe Fudge talked to the Dementors and asked them what happened. Fudge does seem to have an unusually keen abitlity to communicate with them. Can't see any reason why the Dementors would lie; they don't seem to have much of a conscience, and oddly, a guilty conscience is what frequently motivates people to lie. And Fudge may have had a chance to question Sirius, even though he doesn't believe Sirius, his story would have still filled in SOME of the details of what happened. It's also conceivable that they were able to get some information out of Harry before Dumbledore and Mdm. Pomphrey shooed them away. Harry could have been muttering somewhat incoherently, and may have given away the fact that the Dementors tried to kiss him. That might have been enough for Fudge to go question the Dementors. That's not actually required, Harry muttering, because Snape seems to have seen the Dementor retreating, so Fudge would know that they had been on the scene. So generally, I think enough time has past between Harry blacking out, and Fudge and Snape arriving at the hospital wing, for Fudge to have done some investigating and made some inquiries and pieced together the story, or at least, some version of the story. Short version: The Dementors told him. Just a thought. bboy_mn From abigailnus at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 15:53:44 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 15:53:44 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Oh, What a Tangled Web - Generational Parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78271 Abigail and Dicentra, having gotten the minor matter of creating the artwork out of the way, are now debating the much more important question of what to wear at the grand unveiling. Suddenly, they notice a shadow being cast on one of the high windows. "It's an owl." Dicentra says. She uses a long, hooked pole to open a skylight and let the bird in. It carries on its leg a rolled up piece of parchment, which Dicentra unrolls and begins to read. "It's from Laura." She says. "Oh, look, Abigail, it's your first review. Quite good, overall, but she has a few observations." "Everybody's a critic." Says Abigail, who is surveying herself in front of a full-length mirror. "I don't think this beret is quite me, is it?" "Shut up and listen to this." Dicnetra says. "Laura objects to your claim that Draco is a parallel for James. She doesn't think James or Sirius were bullies. We have no evidence that they gave a hard time to anyone but Snape. And Snape seemed to give as much as he got, even though we haven't seen details of any one incident (nor are we likely to hear a first person account with both James and Sirius gone). So it might have been a campaign of mutual provocation but it wasn't bullying. Draco, on the other hand, pushes around everyone he can get away with pushing around, for any reason and at every opportunity." "Since when is it a requirement that a bully victimize more then one person before we can call him a bully?" Abigail asks. "We called Dudley a bully back in PS, when we didn't know that he was bullying anyone but Harry. Besides, we have it from Lily that James walks down the corridors hexing *people*, not just Snape. I do agree that it's unlikely that the acrimony between James and Snape was unilateral - I'm sure Snape got his in from time to time, but that doesn't make the Pensieve scene any less an instance of bullying. James and Sirius pick on Snape, who was minding his own business, because they are bored. They gang up on him, two against one. That sounds to me *exactly* like pushing around everyone they can get away with pushing around for any reason and at any time. I'm sure that Snape was no angel, but in the particular instance that we see, James and Sirius engage in bullying behavior, and Lily's reaction makes me believe that it isn't out of the ordinary for them to do so." "Well." Dicentra says. "She also takes issue with your assertion that Harry and Ron would never stoop to Sirius and James' level. She says that she has no doubt whatsoever that if either Harry or Ron had thought of it, Draco would have been hanging upside down faster than you can say "mudblood". They've both been enraged at him enough times-perhaps they just lack the necessary imagination." "Isn't that telling?" Abigail asks. "They have both been enraged at him enough times, and yet neither of them ever stoops to that level. They never consider ganging up on him - that's Draco's game. Harry's attacks on Draco are always to his face - when he plans to duel with him in PS or when he attacks him in GoF. True, Draco, Crabbe and Goyle are ganged up on during the Train Incident at the end of GoF, but every person who attacks them acts on his or her own volition, not knowing that the others would do the same thing - the Trio, in fact, don't even know that Fred and George are there. Harry and Ron do take vicarious pleasure in seeing Draco humiliated - although Ron is more guilty of that then Harry - but they never even consider perpetrating those acts themselves, which I think draws a very clear distinction between them and Sirius and James." "Laura also objects to your equating Snape and Harry." Dicentra continues reading. "She says that she thinks you're off-base with the LV-DD parallel. Snape was ostracized by the Marauders because he was a creepy, misanthropic kid who even at age 11 was heavy into the dark arts and couldn't seem to keep his nose out of their affairs. His connection to LV came afterward. As for Harry, he was never ostracized for supporting DD by the other non- Slytherin students. The only people who gave him a hard time about that were Lucius, Fudge and Umbridge." "Well, the LV-DD comparison was a shorthand for Muggle-hating, Dark Arts vs. Muggle-loving, anti-Dark Arts." Abigail says. "But I can see how that would be confusing. However, I'm not the one who says that Harry knows what it's like to be bullied and ostracized - he says so himself. Harry's immediate reaction to the Pensieve scene is to commiserate with Snape, because he himself has undergone the same sort of treatment - be it from Dudlely, where he had no one to support him, or from Draco, where he had his friends but could still find himself emotionally damaged." "You realize this is never going to end, right?" Dicentra says, rolling up Laura's missive. "You'll just start a new round of Who's the Worst Bully in the Playground. Lots of people trying to prove that James was the devil incarnate, and that he probably forced Lily to marry him by using Dark Magic, vs. those who think that Snape deserved to have his underwear displayed to the entire student body, and that James was performing a public service." "In that case, I'd better get myself a drink." Abigail says wearily. "C'mon, help me crate this thing up and let's go down to the Royal George." "Not so fast," Dicentra smirks. "Take one last look at that sculpture. Don't you think you're missing something?" Abigail walks around the statue several times, examining it from every direction. She's about to plead ignorance when her mouth drops open and she gasps in horror. "Oh, Dicey! I can't believe I forgot! Thank God you stopped me in time!" "Oh, it's only to be expected." Dicentra says soothingly. "After all, you were so excited about all the new canon, it's only to be expected that you'd forget an old one, even one so important." She smiles benevolently and waves her wand. A short piece of piping flies into it, and with a flourish of her wand she labels it 'Tom Marvolo Riddle'. "May I do the honors?" Without waiting for an answer, she welds the new pipe to the one labeled 'Harry Potter'. "Both half-bloods, albeit by a rather loose definition in Harry's case." Abigail says. "Both parseltongues, and of similar appearance. And, of course, inextricably linked by a prophecy. I can't believe I almost forgot this parallel. Still, you do realize that this might be a red herring? Harry's destiny may be to prove himself just the opposite of Voldemort." "I thought that was the point." Dicentra replies. "These aren't strict parallels, merely echoes of the past." "Come on." Abigail says. "Let's pack this baby up and go drinking." Abigail who was tucked into bed last night, on the very cusp of sleep, when the Harry-Tom Riddle parallel occurred to her and she very nearly swore out loud. Also, Dicentra's last line about parallels vs. echoes originally belongs to Debbie, who wrote it in a private e-mail. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 16:09:43 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:09:43 -0000 Subject: Snape's warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "flavia_pozzatti" wrote: > > > ... After checking whether Sirius was OK, how long did it take > Snape to realise that Harry and the others had gone to the MoM? > > ... if Snape had warned the members of the Order sooner, the outcome > of the battle could have been different. > > Flavia bboy_mn: It's a tribute to the Yahoo Search feature that I couldn't even my my own pervious post where I addressed this subject, so, I'll try again. Snape did inform the Order right away, and he didn't just check to see if Sirius was at headquarters, but told them what Harry said(ie: he has Padfoot at the place where it's hidden). So the Order knew what Harry thought was happening. In the mean time, Harry and Hermione had lured Umbridge out into the forest. Snape would have no reason to suspect that they would or could leave the forest for any destination other than back to Hogwarts. Also, Snape was probably not priviledge to the excuse Hermione used to get Umbridge out of the castle, so he knew nothing about the group entering the forest for some secret weapon. So he waited assuming that once Harry and Hermione were done screwing around with Umbridge's head, they would return to the castle. After some length of time, he began to worry. Knowing the dangers of Umbridge, the dangers to Umbidge by Harry and Hermione, and the general dangers of the forest, he eventually decided to search for them. When the search turned up nothing, he started to wonder, and eventually came to the conclusion that somehow they must have tried to get to the Ministry of Magic. He then alerted the Order, and logically, it took them 'some' amount of time to react and get organized. I really don't see any unaccounted for time. I don't see any time wasted while Snape carelessly ignored the situation. If you think of the time waiting for their return from the forest, the time to search the forest, and the time to inform the Order a second time plus their time to react, all the time seems very reasonably accounted for. Just a thought. bboy_mn From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 16:11:32 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:11:32 -0000 Subject: Snape and the POA Dementor Kiss (Was POA Dementor kiss on Harry - In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78273 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: >> > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" > > wrote: > > > How did Fudge know the dementors tried to Kiss Harry? > Talisman,swoops in to say: > > > I believe Snape told DD. Snape was the only one in a position to do > bboy_mn said:: > > So generally, I think enough time has past between Harry blacking out, and Fudge and Snape arriving at the hospital wing, for Fudge to have done some investigating Short version: The Dementors told him. Talisman, banking for a return swoop, points out: I think a review of the coversation starting on PoA 386 makes it pretty clear that Fudge is getting his information from Snape, not the contrary. Moreover, if Fudge had been interviewing the dementors, he wouldn't be asking Snape: "you've really no idea what made them retreat, Snape?" (387) In the time-turned replay we see that Harry and Hermione watch Snape float everyone up to the castle (412), then, before they leave the bushes they see Macnair come out to get the Dementors.(413) They fly up, save Sirius and run back inside to hear Fudge talking about how Macair is still off getting the dementors. (416) Nope. I don't think Fudge was out talking to the dementors. Moreover, if Fudge had been out chatting with the dementors (in this bizarre conversation where he found out they tried to kiss Harry but didn't ask them why they stopped) he would no doubt have brought one back with him to promptly dispatch Black. But hey, if you're in the mood for Fudge, go with it...you've got a few more years before book 6. Talisman, who's not swallowing Fudge. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 16:26:54 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:26:54 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" > > > wrote: > > > > > How did Fudge know the dementors tried to Kiss Harry? > > > James Redmont said: > > > DD told him, I'll bet. How did DD know? He knows everything, > > > doesn't he? > > > > > Talisman,swoops in to say: > > > > I believe Snape told DD. Snape was the only one in a position to do > > so. > > Snape here: Snape came to as the dementors were proceding back to their guard posts. He would not have seen anything happen, as he did not mention Harry's patronus, Snape didn't know what caused the dementors to retreat. > > bboy_mn: > > Here is a wild and crazy idea, maybe Fudge talked to the Dementors and asked them what happened. Severus here: I believe it was DD's ability to read minds through that L word that Snape used on Harry to teach him that Occulemency (sp?). But if Fudge took this as fact, wouldn't he also except the fact that Wormtail was actually there, because DD would be able to see it in Harry's, Hemione's, and Ron's minds? And Sirious would receive a full pardon? There are too many inconsistencies, the only way that Fudge could know was that he either spoke to the dementors (can they speak?) or he had ordered the kiss to be used against Harry. Maybe under the mind control of MacNair, a know DE. > snip < > And Fudge may have had a chance to question Sirius, even though he > doesn't believe Sirius, his story would have still filled in SOME of the details of what happened. Severus here: Sirius was the first to go down from the dementors effect, he would not have seen anything either. And as far getting anything out of Harry, he was unconscious until woken by Fudges conversation with Snape outside the hospital wing door. Same with Hermione. Poppy never mentioned the fact that either was muttering in their sleep. Ron was out until they returned from using the time turner. bboy here: > snip < > Short version: The Dementors told him. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Severus here: Or he told them to do it and Harry drove them away with his patronus. And since Harry survived, Fudge had to cover his butt. I believe Fudge doesn't care for Harry or if he survives at all, to Fudge, he is just bait to get Sirius to show at Hogwarts. And this could be backed up in GoF, Fudge was helping Harry, so he could win the TWC and be the one to touch the cup. Does Fudge know that Wormtail is still alive and tried to catch Sirius before he got to Wormtail? I think Fudge is a DE sympathiser (sp?). Severus From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 16:41:09 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:41:09 -0000 Subject: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape (Was: ...Half-Breed???)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jsmgleaner" wrote: ->>big snip<<- Stylistically, though, I thought it > was a bit too much at the end with JKR practically saying "Look Umbridge is * > really* evil" with Umbridge about to use the AK curse on Harry and having set > the demnetors on him -- >>snipped again<< -- > --jsmgleaner now Shirley: I've read this several times in these Umbridge threads, and I just have to correct it: Umbridge was about to use the Cruciatis (sp?) curse on Harry; *not* the AK curse. And while I'm at it, I *didn't* think she had been raped any of the times I read (or heard) OoP; I thought she was completely in shock because she had been carted off by the very things she hated most (half-breeds). I thought she had probably been absolutely terrified during the whole ordeal and was suffering from post-traumatic-stress, for lack of a better description. However, I think I'll need to keep the centaurs' natural behavior (I read some of the mythological links) in mind when next I read OoP to see if it comes across differently to me now. Thanks for the enlightenment on other literature! ;) Shirley (who is re-reading all the books in order; now in the middle of PoA; and hoping she can put them to bed for awhile after this in order to read all the other books she has piled up!) From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 17:03:04 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:03:04 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78276 > Severus here: > > Or he told them to do it and Harry drove them away with his > patronus. And since Harry survived, Fudge had to cover his butt. > I believe Fudge doesn't care for Harry or if he survives at all, to > Fudge, he is just bait to get Sirius to show at Hogwarts. And this > could be backed up in GoF, Fudge was helping Harry, so he could win > the TWC and be the one to touch the cup. Does Fudge know that > Wormtail is still alive and tried to catch Sirius before he got to > Wormtail? I think Fudge is a DE sympathiser (sp?). Just a quick point: In GoF, Harry got help (or was offered help) from several people: Crouch/Moody helped Harry with every task, even though Harry didn't know it. And he manipulated the following people into giving Harry a hand so Harry would win. Hagrid told Harry about the dragons. Though Crouch/Moody tells Harry that he nudged Hagrid to reveal that. Cedric shared information (again from Crouch/Moody) with Harry about the egg. Dobby told Harry about the gillyweed, which he learned about from Crouch/Moody. Ludo Bagman, AFAIK the only one not being manipulated by Crouch/Moody, having made a bet that Harry would win the Tournament, offered to help Harry. Harry did not take him up. Oh, actually, Ron and Hermione helped out with researching and practicing. I don't think Crouch had anything to do with that, specifically. I don't recall Fudge doing anything to ensure Harry's getting to the Cup. KathyK (who thinks Fudge is many things, but not a Death Eater or a Voldemort Supporter) From sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 17:14:09 2003 From: sofdog_2000 at yahoo.com (sofdog_2000) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:14:09 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ and other observations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78277 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "saieditor" wrote: > I am speculating now about Voldy's statement to Harry in SS, 'there > is no good nor evil, only power'. This raises a further problem in > that due Harry's absorption with dreams about doors and corridors, > we now have a theme of mind possession, or possession of > consciousness, which, in some part, has to be resolved before any > conflict. I dont think Harry, in this vulnerable state, will be in > any final face to face conflict with Voldy. How could he? > > Some one will have to take up the gauntlet to prod Harry into > further Occlumens lessons or teach him new stategies to protect his > mind. Sof: I think Sirius' death would be all the motivation Harry needs to get that Occlumency down pat. > I have noted carefully the absence of any overt Christian themes or > structures, (as someone else mentioned, there is no chapel, the main feast is the Yule Ball, and the exchange of presents)so this, > without reading too much into it, simply reflects where most people > are with Christmas. Where I come from, it is nothing but an > opportunity for adverting, marketing, Santa commercials ad nauseum, > and I am generally sick of the commercialisation of Christmas. I > digress. Sof: I too wondered if the Christian protests were founded. The few references to God (My God!) seem to be offhand comments common in the Western world even for the unfaithful. In no way has this series ever seemed a Christ allegory to me. I say this because, well most stories and particularly distinct hero stories like HP follow the ancient storytelling construct of the Hero's Journey. This theme is repeated in almost all storytelling around the world far back before the rise of Christianity. Harry was clearly cast as a messianic character from Chapter One of "Sorcerer's Stone." He was the one person the Dark Lord could not kill, and his survival overcame the Dark Lord. I know someone argued against this last week but the fact is these are around us all the time (Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Xena: Warrior Princess, The Terminator, The Matrix, The Lord of the Rings). Those who frequently follow myth, classic tales, modern fiction and comic books are too familiar with the pattern not to spot it at a drop. It is simply to common. You can argue pro/con on the universality of Christianity, but the real question is does Harry Potter represent a spiritually universal message? Are the ideals that Rowling represents broad, relevant and compelling enough to illuminate - particularly for the young - what it means to be good and to do good? It really doesn't matter what the author's background is, where she derives her sensibilities. What matters is that she really understands the driving force of positive living and how best to impart that to children in a way that compels them to do good as well. Does that make sense? I'm thinking particularly of Bettelheim's "Uses of Enchantment." He describes the categories of fairy stories and how they work to motivate good behavior. Some motivate children through morality and others motivate them through identifying with a winner (the hero). Is Harry the Messiah of the Wizarding World? Sure. The narrative tells us so repeatedly. But readers need not see him as Christ-like. There is room to reference him against so many other, older figures from the world's myths. That there are Christian elements present isn't bothersome to me in the least. The series is rife with elements from all manor of literary, mythic, historical and religious sources. There's something in the HP books for everyone. > Noting the absence of any overt Christian themes or symbology, In > General, I can only come back to Dumbledore and his statement to > Fudge, people are defined by their choices, and experience the > consequences of their choices. In that, there is no difference > between the Muggle world and the Wizarding World. What does seem > strikingly odd to me is that there is some glaring gaps in morality > in the Wizarding World regarding the acts of some of the characters. > Sof: Wizards are humans. There is no imperative given that Wizards are morally superior to Muggles. All of these examples - cheating, assassination, torture - are the normal failings of people. Wizards are just people who do things in a different way. If you look too closely you'll see that none of this really makes any sense. Wizards have national pride, cleaving to Muggle symbols like Leprachauns and shamrocks, yet they don't know enough to wear pants instead of nightgowns in public? How is that possible? How can the Wizarding world have evolved alongside/within the Muggle world yet have such inconsistent concepts of Muggle society? Which seems to me to indicate clearly that this story was originally designed for children. From jsmgleaner at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 17:13:01 2003 From: jsmgleaner at yahoo.com (jsmgleaner) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:13:01 -0000 Subject: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape (Was: ...Half-Breed???)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78278 Shirley: > > I've read this several times in these Umbridge threads, and I just > have to correct it: Umbridge was about to use the Cruciatis (sp?) > curse on Harry; *not* the AK curse. Oops. Do I get to say that I was thinking "Cruciatus" when I wrote "AK"? I swear!! Still, the move is "unforgivable"? By the way, that makes me think: why "unfrorgivable"? Have people on this list parsed that word choice already? I mean, as opposed to "illegal," although I know that Fake!Moody uses that term in the GoF chapter as well. -- jsmgleaner, who must be the only list member to have read OOtP only once. From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 17:21:52 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 17:21:52 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78279 > > Talisman, hanging by her toes from the monitor, suggests: > > > > Usually vampires (even double agent spy ones) don't show up in > > photographs. > > > > (Yes, I do think that the reason Snape was so innnnterrrested to > see > > his face in the GoF "foe glass" is that, not working like a normal > > reflection, it was a rare opportunity for him to see himself.) Shirley: I am on the fence about the Snape:vampire theory, but must admit that I thought the same thing about the "foe glass" upon reading the theory.... > Bohcoo, amid a big case of creeps: > > Yah-arghh-h. Good point. I wondered why he was so fascinated with the > foe glass reflection myself. > > Clues. Clues. The man is a vampire, sure as the world. We have all > the other usual dark creatures -- werewolves, bats flying around at > Halloween feasts, etc. The only one missing is the vampire. > > Or, is he? > > Bohcoo > (BTW. Are you a fan of Bugs Bunny and the big orange monster where he > is doing the monster's nails and says, "Monsters are very > innnnterrresting...?" Shirley, again: I believe the "big orange monster" is named Gossamer (my sister and I are big fans of his) just putting in my 2 knuts..... From tharqueen at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 14:42:02 2003 From: tharqueen at hotmail.com (Nisha) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:42:02 -0000 Subject: Harry and Christ - other beliefs (longish) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78280 {{{{Now, none of this is > Christian at all, but a Christian reader will be able to read it as > a sort of "premonition" of the bigger story of Christ's sacrifice. > But it's a perfectly good theme all on its own, and it's widespread > in lots of other cultures. (Actually, the part that struck me was > the fact that this festival marks the death of a mother!}}}} I agree. I find that the themes found in HP are universal. I think people of every culture find similarities with their own religion/mythology. Mythologies are similar in many ways. One way to look at it is through the idea of the "Hero's Journey" which is used consciously and sub-consciously by many writers, movie makers and creatives. I think HP is no different and that Rowling has encompassed the universal values and the reality of cruelty in life very well. The idea of choice and consequence are very important ideas for both children and adults to learn. As for the 'death of a mother', Harry has a connection/protection from his mother even after her death which I feel will become significant later on. His mother gave her life so that he could live. It fits in very well with the cycle of life found in mythologies. Also JK Rowling is probably incorporating her own life experience as well, which is touching. Perhaps the greatest magic in life and death is Love after all. Nisha From bookhound1 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 14:12:52 2003 From: bookhound1 at yahoo.com (Lynda Pringle) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 07:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE2487CC@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: <20030821141252.34127.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78281 < their right mind would continue having greasy hair IF they actually SAW it in a mirror. BLUK how ugly is that?? You wouldn't know if you didn't see it!! I am > on board with the vampire theory!!>> Tonya I think that Snape's mind is "above" such petty matters as hygiene and clean hair. Even if he were to notice his appearance in the mirror, he probably would just shrug it off. I don't think he cares. Lynda __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From urghiggi at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 14:19:02 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:19:02 -0000 Subject: the Javert/Lucifer hypothesis Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78282 Chris' sig (quote from "Les Miserables") reminded me of a discussion over on the excellent Harry Potter Prognostications blog, regarding the OoP prophecy and possible outcomes of that. One of the feedbacks proposed that perhaps the big climax will involve HP forgiving LV somehow -- but the proposer of the theory then did not say how that was going to play out in the end. (I don't see LV repenting -- he's not Darth Vader, as far as I can tell.) However, it occurred to me that something like the Javert/Valjean climax possibly could happen. For those unfamiliar w/the tale, Javert is a self- righteous law enforcer -- really the villain of the piece -- who pursues the supposed criminal Valjean throughout their lives. (Valjean has really done nothing worse than commit petty theft in order to survive, early in the book. Javert's dogged pursuit is a constant threat that keeps Valjean from enjoying any kind of peace/joy with his ward, Cosette.) Javert ultimately tracks Valjean down, but it occurs in a situation where Valjean has physical power over him and could easily kill him for making his life a living hell. Javert fully expects this. Valjean, in an act of incredible human mercy, tells Javert that he isn't going to kill him and that he should just leave. Javert's rigid, "I'm good he's bad" world view is so rocked by this act of mercy on the part of a person whom he's pursued as a heinous criminal for decades that he commits suicide. So let's propose that somehow -- HOW remains to be seen -- the end of the series involves LV screwing up, being betrayed, or otherwise being delivered, disarmed, into the hands of Harry, the OoP, and DA. Suppose Harry, knowing full well that the prophecy says he must kill or be killed, decides not to kill LV - - decides that no prophecy is going to turn him into a murderer, even if he ultimately has to die himself. Suppose he's so sick of all the killing he's seen that he lowers his the wand and says, "no more." Now, suppose LV is so incensed by his humiliating defeat and this act of mercy that he prefers to annihilate himself rather than live in Harry's debt, under any sort of containment/subjection scheme designed for his rehabilitation. (Sort of like the Lucifer thing from Milton -- better a prince in hell than a servant in heaven....) LV gets his hands on a wand -- maybe he's even grabbing Harry's wand hand -- and offs himself. Result -- LV dead due to Harry's actions (figuratively, and possibly even literally, "at the hand of" Harry). Love as the force that causes LV's downfall. Harry not dead but surviving, due to his moral choices. Happy ending. It's a far-fetched scenario, I grant you. it would have to be written so carefully, too -- and it might not be possible to write it at all, in a way that did not appear sickeningly trite. But it would satisfy the prophecy, leave Harry alive at the end of the series, and confirm the power of choice over fate and of love over evil. It seems to me it would be consistent with the themes JKR has been pushing. (And we do know she's ... uhhh ... familiar with French literature.) OK, I know I'm nuts. Fire away .... :-) urghiggi, chicago From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Aug 21 16:46:11 2003 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:46:11 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78283 First, this is my first post, so forgive the interruption and the length. In reading the posts, it occurs to me that we actually know quite a bit more than we may realize about books 6&7. So I thought, with less than a couple thousand pages left (gasp!), what things do we KNOW must happen? Perhaps this could help us to better structure our discussion and/or predictions. I'll take a quick stab as a start, but please do add. Remember, we want events that are a reasonable certainty. BOOK # / DIRECTLY VIEWED? (vs. related to us via a third party) / EVENT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Book 6: Yes: Partial Summer at Dursleys Book 6: Yes: Explanation for Aunt Petunia's Dementor Knowledge Book 6: ???: MoM Takes Some Action Against LV/Des (2nd War) Book 6: Yes: Return to Hogwarts Book 6: Yes: New DADA Book 6: Yes: Harry and Ron on the Same Quidditch Team Book 6: Yes: Harry Keeps a Secret He Shouldn't Book 6: Yes: Something Terrible Happens Book 6: Yes: Harry Tries to Save the Day Book 6: Yes: Introduce 3-5 Minor Characters Book 6: Yes: 1-3 Minor Characters Become Major Book 6: ???: Dementors Returned to Azkaban Book 6: ???: Grawp Tamed or Leaves Book 6: ???: Harry Learns Occlumency Book 7: Yes: Partial Summer at Dursleys Book 7: Yes: Return to Hogwarts Book 7: ???: Head Boy/Girl Named Book 7: Yes: Introduce 3-5 Important New Characters Book 7: Yes: 1-3 Minor Characters Become Major Book ?: ???: Harry Learns Snape's Secret Book ?: ???: Goblins/Giants/Others Somehow Enter the Fray Book ?: Yes: Metamorphmagus Is Momentarily Important Book ?: Yes: Harry Learns More About His Parents Book ?: Yes: H/R/H's SHIPs Come In at Last Book 7: Yes: Full Disclosure of the Prophecy's Meaning Book 7: Yes: Final Harry vs. Voldemort Wow-that's already going to take up a dozen or more chapters! Remnant -with lots of time before #6 From DaveH47 at mindspring.com Thu Aug 21 17:16:25 2003 From: DaveH47 at mindspring.com (Dave Hardenbrook) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:16:25 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry and Christ (Was Re: veil/Ddore's cowardice? (longish) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1771626364.20030821101625@mindspring.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78284 Wednesday, August 20, 2003, 11:53:53 PM, Geoff Bannister wrote: GB> I believe that true Christianity involves the Spirit of God living GB> within a person. It is a personal, inidividual relationship not GB> adherence to a religious orthodoxy or "signing up" to a set of rules GB> like a club. Actually, I think the faith you're most accurately describing here is Unitarian Universalism (which is Christian-independent). -- Dave (Proud UU) From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Thu Aug 21 16:45:27 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:45:27 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78285 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tara" > wrote: > >> > Everyone knows Harry looks like James. It would be impossible for > those that knew James to look at Harry and not see his father. At > least, when they first meet him. It must be especially difficult for Sirius not to see his best friend when he looks at his godson. Even though James died many years ago, to Sirius it is probably still > freshest because of his time in Azkaban. He had the dementors there to constantly remind him of how he cost his best friend his life. Azkaban also lost Sirius a large chunk of his own life. He has not had the same time and space to adjust to what happened as, say James' other good friend, Lupin. > Agreed. To spend all that time locked up, and to see your godson is nearly a twin of your best friend, whom you were thinking about constantly , must've been quite a shock!! > I can see in OoP Sirius confusing Harry with his father. A > combination of the way Harry looks and wishful thinking causes him to > mix the two up a bit. He especially shows he does this when he was > disappointed that Harry felt Sirius shouldn't risk meeting Harry in > Hogsmeade and Sirius says, "You're less like your father than I > thought" (305, US) and was quite disappointed by this. So he was > obviously hoping for his best friend and got Harry instead. However, > I think Sirius was also extremely disappointed that he wouldn't be > getting out of the house and isn't able to do anything for Harry. > Yes, this is apparent. Sirius felt like he was back in school again, with James at his side, ready to cause mischief. I'd guess that maybe James had calmed down a bit, it looks like it might've been a case of him acting domestic around Lily, but still getting rowdy with the boys. Since they would've been what, 20 or so? That's to be expected. James hadn't totally settled down yet. > > As for this trait of Sirius' not showing up in the first two books, I > don't think it was an issue for two reasons mainly: > Excellent observations, and quite realistic, imho. I think had Sirius *not* taken his promise to James and Lily about protecting Harry and being a good godfather would've been disasterous for them both. I'd imagine that had Harry wrote to him asking about something and after his questions were answered if he started with the " Are you shaving yet?" " Are you still a virgin?" would've really freaked Harry and the others. It would've shown his obsession with Harry's resemblance to James and made him appear to be nutters. That would've ended the relationship earlier. > > Not to be repetetive, but I hope I made a little sense. If not, > well, I wrote a quite a bit. There's bound to be something useful in > there. Right? *crickets chirp in the silence* Right? > Ah, but you did make sense, at least to my dull brain you did, if that makes you feel better. ;) Jeff From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Thu Aug 21 16:48:21 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:48:21 -0000 Subject: Centaurs/Umbridge (was various threads re: Umbridge) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78286 Well, it appears that I didn't remember as much as I thought I did about the centaurs of Greek mythology! Let me just tie back down a couple of points about JKR's centaurs: --- AAm wrote: > Matt wrote : > > > Conversely, an assault would contradict > > > much of what we have heard about the > > > centaurs' moral principles. > > > What have we really learned about their > moral principles ? Besides, are those > principles conscientiously applied ? From > what I've already read I must say that I > can't really judge. We've learned that the ethics of the Forbidden Forest centaurs revolve around passivity. They observe, they experience, they predict, but they do not interfere with the course of human events. They are not interested in preventing Quirrell/Voldemort from hunting down and killing unicorns even when it occurs in their own backyard. I concede that we have learned most of this from Firenze (the others barely ever speak, except to warn folks out of the Forest). But Firenze is consistently portrayed as representing the views of his people in this regard at least. (Indeed, is that not supposed to be the reason DD hired him?) > > > It would be an act of abuse, inconsistent > > > with the Centaurs' rejection of evil (and > > > good). It would be a supreme act of > > > interference with the affairs of humans. > > Well, in fact, I had the impression that from > the centaurs' POV the interference was H, H and > Umbridge's fault. . . . > Thus, it appeared to me that the [centaurs] > were so enraged that the problem "to interfer > or not to interfer with the affairs of humans" > had somehow already been solved. I made two points, and you have addresed the second. I think your response largely comes back to your earlier premise that the centaurs do not consistently apply any particular moral framework (with a gloss that they would be particularly unlikely to do so when fired up). I disagree with the premise: when JKR has the centaurs say (I am paraphrasing) "our laws are not your laws," I think she means us to understand that the centaurs are creatures of principle, even if the principles they apply are different. I agree that the centaurs were angry and out of control, but (and this gets back to my first point, which you did not address) as I read them they were moved by a desire to assert control over their domain, not to abuse or torment Umbridge personally. > > > It would treat Umbridge as a means rather than > > > an end, just what the centaurs blamed Hermione > > > for doing to them. > > I'm sorry but IMHO their behaviour had nothing to > do with some kind of kantian ethics (if this is > what you were referring to, of course ; otherwise, > please don't take in account that remark). On the > contrary, they did what they did out of pride, > resentment, anger, etc., not because they were > following any peculiar form of ethics. > I was alluding to a Kantian principle in discussing treating people as a means vs. an end. This was not to assert that the centaurs are political liberalists, just that they were looking for this particular type of respect. Perhaps they would demand this respect from humans without being willing to give it in return, but again (and we may differ here) I think they are too principled to sink to that level of hypocrisy. Turning to a different post, Tamee wrote: > I believe that what sent Umbridge into such a > catatonic state is that SHE believed [the centaurs] > would do that and worse. After all, she calls them > "filthy half-breeds" as well as "uncontrolled > animals", and as she's being hauled off she's > wandless and without defense, and knowing that in > her position she'd be indulging in her own brand of > cruelty, she expects them to behave in whatever > bestial way she can imagine. I find this reading much more credible than the readings that infer an actual sexual assault. It is consistent with Umbridge's character, and also with JKR's portrayal of interspecies ignorance and prejudice in the WW in general (e.g., most of the wizarding public always assuming the worst about werewolves, giants, goblins, etc.). From tminton at deckerjones.com Thu Aug 21 18:02:17 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:02:17 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE2487D1@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78287 I said: < their right mind would continue having greasy hair IF they actually SAW it in a mirror. BLUK how ugly is that?? You wouldn't know if you didn't see it!! I am > on board with the vampire theory!!>> Tonya Lynda said: I think that Snape's mind is "above" such petty matters as hygiene and clean hair. Even if he were to notice his appearance in the mirror, he probably would just shrug it off. I don't think he cares. Lynda Now mea again: (Tonya) Yeah your probably right. IT's still gross, he needs to get rid of the the greasy hair. Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 18:03:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:03:50 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78288 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > > ...edited... > > bboy here: > > > snip < > > Short version: The Dementors told him. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > > Severus here: > > Or he told them to do it and Harry drove them away with his > patronus. And since Harry survived, Fudge had to cover his butt. > ... I think Fudge is a DE sympathiser (sp?). > > Severus bboy_mn: Very valid point but at this time (POA), I don't think Fudge feels at all threatened by Harry or Dumbledore. At times uncertain and frustrated, but not threatened to the point of paranoid, so think his general feelings are benevolent. Being Minister of Magic, Fudge knows the only hope for a free and open wizard world and the assurrance of Fudge's continued power is Harry, the prophesied savior of the wizard world, so it is in his best interests to protect him. Also, remember Lucius Malfoy's words of wisdom to Draco (paraphrased), it's not wise to give the wizard world the impression that you are less than fond of Harry Potter. So, if events do lean more toward your interpretation, I think it is because Fudge casually and carelessly authorized the Dementors to use the KISS if the appropraite occassion should arise. The Dementors took this as a much much broader license to kill or KISS than Fudge intended. Harry was protecting a known criminal and that was good enough for the Dementors. Generally, the Dementors don't seem too concerned about where or how they get their prey, just as long as they are getting what they want. They aren't inclined to ask too many philisophical questions. Just a thought. bboy_mn From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 18:04:42 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:04:42 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78289 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > > I've been thinking about it right from the moment I read DD's > explanation of Harry's "special power" : > > OoP, chapter 37 : > > 'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries that is kept locked > at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and > more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of > nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects > for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room > that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at > all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also > saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to > reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it > mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart > that saved you.' > > Can you see how the word "love", or anything else for that matter, is > not mentioned a single time ? Knowing JKR the way we know her, that > should signal "Beware ! Trap !" We all think of love right away, and > I think this is *precisely* what she *wants* us to think of ! But she > never ever mentions it. So I think that power is not love at all. > > Let's see : > > -it's a power that is so special that the room where it is studied > has to be locked at all times : why would anyone want to keep people > out of the Love room ? In my idea, it should even be a room where > everyone should be made to go once in a while : it would make the > world a much nicer place :-) > > - it is a power more wonderful and more terrible than death : love is > more wonderful than death, all right, but more terrible ?? > > - it's a mysterious power > > - Harry possesses lots of that power, and Voldemort none : I agree > that Voldemort doesn't love, but I don't see Harry as being so full > of love. He's full of many emotions, but love doesn't strike me as > one of the most prominent ones. > > - it's the power that took Harry to save Sirius : it isn't love in > itself that made Harry go to the MoM, but his desire to help him, his > hope to save him. > > - it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't reside in a body > full of it : Voldemort doesn't hate love. He doesn't understand it, > he despises it, but he doesn't hate it. > > So what could that power be ? I'm not sure, but one possibility would > be Hope. Not just hope that I'll get rich tomorrow, but Hope that > things will turn out all right in the end. A Hope bordering on Faith, > to use a Christian terminology. > > You see : > > -it's a power that is so special that the room where it is studied > has to be locked at all times : remember what happens to people when > they are faced with the Mirror of Erised ? They get fascinated by it. > Some even waste their whole life away looking into it. I think it > would be the same with a Hope room : people would get trapped into > it, because they would feel so much hope in it, that the outside > world would seem unbearably desperate to them. > > - it is a power more wonderful and more terrible than death : because > he's got this hope of seeing Sirius again when he dies, Harry is > ready to sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort. As such, it is more > wonderful than death. But for other people who hope for what they > can't ever obtain, it is more terrible than death, but it makes them > live an excruciating nightmare every single day of their lives. > > - it's a mysterious power : why do many people hope for things when > everything seems to tell them those things will never come true, that > is a mystery indeed. > > - Harry possesses lots of that power, and Voldemort none : Harry > always had a lot of hope, he keeps thinking he can get out of the > trickiest and deadliest situations and that something will happen to > turn a desperate situation around. That's why he's always trying, > always acting, because he's got this hope that in the end things will > turn out right if he gives his best. But LV doesn't have any Hope. > He's got small desires, for sure, but no real hope for anything. He > wants what he knows he can obtain, but he doesn't have any hope for a > better life. > > - it's the power that took Harry to save Sirius : as I already said, > it was his hope to save Sirius that took Harry all the way to the > MoM. He kept hoping against reason that Sirius was still alive and > that he, Harry, would somehow free him from Voldemort. > > - it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't reside in a body > full of it : it was the joy Harry felt at the idea of seeing Sirius > again that kicked LV out of Harry's body. And that joy came from that > deep hope that Harry nurtured, that the people who go through the > veil are still alive somewhere somehow. Moreover, Hope is the worst > enemy of any tyrant : as long as people keep hoping that things can > get better, they can't be crushed. They can be isolated, tortured, or > whatever, as long as they have hope, they keep fighting. So for > someone like Voldemort, Hope would be the worst feeling people can > feel, because it keeps them fighting against him, no matter how > powerful he gets. > > So what do you think ? Am I completely off-track or what ? Shoot > away ! > > Del Now Shirley: Excellent, *excellent* post!! I have been thinking along the same lines, but could never have worded it so well or argued it so convincingly. I have, in turn, considered the power to be faith, hope or love (yes, very Corinthians of me), but concluded it to be hope. So, no flames from here ;) From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 17:44:08 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 10:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030821174408.70400.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78290 --- Shirley wrote: > > > Talisman, hanging by her toes from the monitor, > suggests: > > > > > > Usually vampires (even double agent spy ones) > don't show up in > > > photographs. > > > > > > (Yes, I do think that the reason Snape was so > innnnterrrested to > > see > > > his face in the GoF "foe glass" is that, not > working like a > normal > > > reflection, it was a rare opportunity for him to > see himself.) > It's quite possible that the order did not invite him to the picture. If the Order knew they had a spy in their midst, it would be incredibly idiotic to allow their spy to have be identified in such a way. Him not being in a picture was an assurance he would not be identifed. I always was under the impression that only Dumbledore, and perhaps Moody, knew Snape was the spy the first time. Chris <- who feels Snape has gotten the short stick far to often in his life. ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 18:10:53 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:10:53 -0000 Subject: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape (Was: ...Half-Breed???)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jsmgleaner" wrote: > Shirley: > > > > I've read this several times in these Umbridge threads, and I just > > have to correct it: Umbridge was about to use the Cruciatis (sp?) > > curse on Harry; *not* the AK curse. > jsmgleaner: > Oops. Do I get to say that I was thinking "Cruciatus" when I wrote "AK"? I > swear!! Still, the move is "unforgivable"? > Shirley: No worries; I was certain that's what you meant, but still wanted to clarify it. jsmgleaner: > By the way, that makes me think: why "unfrorgivable"? Have people on this > list parsed that word choice already? I mean, as opposed to "illegal," > although I know that Fake!Moody uses that term in the GoF chapter as well. > > -- jsmgleaner, who must be the only list member to have read OOtP only once. Shirley, again: I don't know why the "unforgiveable" label, either, because "illegal" seems more appropriate to me. Unforgiveable to whom? But maybe I'm just being obtuse. (and I have no idea whether that's been discussed or not. I'm trying to get through the entire almost 80,000 posts in order, but it's extremely slow going, even when skimming/skipping!!) From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 18:14:51 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:14:51 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <20030821174408.70400.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > > --- Shirley wrote: > > > > Talisman, hanging by her toes from the monitor, > > suggests: > > > > > > > > Usually vampires (even double agent spy ones) > > don't show up in > > > > photographs. > > > > > > > > (Yes, I do think that the reason Snape was so > > innnnterrrested to > > > see > > > > his face in the GoF "foe glass" is that, not > > working like a > > normal > > > > reflection, it was a rare opportunity for him to > > see himself.) > > > > > It's quite possible that the order did not invite him > to the picture. If the Order knew they had a spy in > their midst, it would be incredibly idiotic to allow > their spy to have be identified in such a way. Him not > being in a picture was an assurance he would not be > identifed. > > I always was under the impression that only > Dumbledore, and perhaps Moody, knew Snape was the spy > the first time. > > Chris <- who feels Snape has gotten the short stick > far to often in his life. now Shirley: thanks for the credit above, but none of that was written by me (although obviously edited from one of my posts). It's not fair to the very eloquent 'talisman' to credit his/her words to me. Just wanted to clear that up. :) From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 18:28:40 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:28:40 -0000 Subject: Sharing ACRONYMS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78293 Thought I would share some (theory)acronyms from my group. Enjoy! ACT QUICK As Captain, The Quidditch team Uses Its Current Keeper Ron will be new Gryffindor Quidditch captain AW, MOM Arthur Weasley, Minister or Magic The Sr. Weasley will be named new MOM BARKEEP Brother Aberforth Really Keeps Everyone Evil Posted Aberforth left Order, turned evil BARKEEP Brother Aberforth Really Keeps Eyes Excellently Peeled Aberforth in Order, gets info in Hog's Head HAMBURGER Harry, As Metamorphmagus, Bears Uncanny Resemblance, but Green Eyes Remain Harry wills himself to look like James MAMAS McGonagall And Mrs. Figg Are Sisters Figg loves cats, McGonagall can change into one... MYRTLE Maybe You're Related To Lily Evans Moaning Myrtle is older sister to Petunia & Lily THE CHARMED ONE To Harry's Excitement, Clever Headmaster Apparently Remembers Meeting. Err Dumbledore? One is Neville? Excellent! The Prophecy refers to Neville, not Harry, so he hoped. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 18:29:46 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:29:46 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and the Dementors at Privet Drive Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78294 I was discussing the Dementor's action in POA with someone else on this list, and something occured to me. I was pointing out in this other thread that Fudge had specifically authorized the Dementors to execute the Kiss. That got me thinking about Umbridge sending the Dementors to Little Whinging, and I got a sudden chill. It would seem that Umbridge did not send the Dementors with orders to scare the hell out of Harry, or to try and force Harry into performing some magic, but to TAKE HIM OUT and TAKE HIM DOWN. Notice that the Dementors went straight for the kiss. They weren't there for a scary snack, they were there for the full course meal. If the Dementors were truly under the control of the Ministry, they wouldn't have execute the kiss without orders. So it seems crystal clear that Umbridge wanted far more than to discredit Harry and/or get him expelled. She was out for blood, or perhaps I should say out for SOUL. As a side note to a thread that is already going on, I wonder what will happen to Umbridge? She clearly broke the law, extremely broke the law, in sending the Dementors after Harry. She committed human right violation; tortured students, violated rights to privacy, executed unwarrented search and seizure, interference with postal deliver (a federal offense), engaged in a systematic corruption of the people's government and of an established school system, crimes against humanity, etc.... But I must confess that I am baffled at what the outcome will be. Certainly Fudge, if he is to stay if office, has to take some action to separate himself from her actions. As a politician, if he doesn't take a stand against her, then he is by default for her. Lose her job, and live in disgrace? ...don't have a clue. Certainly, lose her job at the very least. The 'live in disgrace' is a matter of her personal attitude; she may still consider herself a hero. Sent to Azkaban? ...not sure, seems extreme, but it would give her a chance to associate with the imprisoned DE's who could very easily recruit her. She already seems to have the right attitude to be a DR. But without her job at the Ministry, she would be of limited value to them. Still one more soldier increases the army. So, do I think Umbridge WAS a DE; no, but I think she has a very high potential to become one now. Maybe fade to the background and never be heard from again? She played her part, now she's gone. Basically, don't have a clue, not even a wild guess, but the future DE idea is looking better all the time. Just a thought. bboy_mn From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 18:44:01 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:44:01 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable v. Illegal (Was: Re: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78295 jsmgleaner: By the way, that makes me think: why "unfrorgivable"? Have people on this list parsed that word choice already? I mean, as opposed to "illegal," although I know that Fake!Moody uses that term in the GoF chapter as well. Shirley: I don't know why the "unforgiveable" label, either, because "illegal" seems more appropriate to me. Unforgiveable to whom? But maybe I'm just being obtuse. KathyK: Avada Kedavra: Three words, "Kill the spare." Cruciatus: Torturing people, sometimes to the point of insanity. Imperius: Removing someone's free will. To me, they're called unforgiveable because they're three curses that give an individual much too much power over other people. To use them in the manner they're used in the books is, IMO, "Unforgiveable." And perhaps at one point far in the wizarding past, these curses were newly discovered and used. At that point they would not be illegal because they'd just been found out and could have been dubbed "Unforgiveable" before they became illegal. The other thought I have is that "Unforgiveable" sounds much more dramatic than simply, "Illegal." KathyK From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 21 18:46:55 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:46:55 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and the Dementors at Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78296 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Lose her job, and live in disgrace? ...don't have a clue. Certainly, > lose her job at the very least. The 'live in disgrace' is a matter of > her personal attitude; she may still consider herself a hero. > > Sent to Azkaban? ...not sure, seems extreme, but it would give her a > chance to associate with the imprisoned DE's who could very easily > recruit her. She already seems to have the right attitude to be a DR. > But without her job at the Ministry, she would be of limited value to > them. Still one more soldier increases the army. So, do I think > Umbridge WAS a DE; no, but I think she has a very high potential to > become one now. > > Maybe fade to the background and never be heard from again? She played > her part, now she's gone. > > Basically, don't have a clue, not even a wild guess, but the future DE > idea is looking better all the time. > I'm thinking she's a likely candidate to go over the Voldemort now. She's one of those people who never forgets a slight - the gleeful way she got back at everyone who crossed her in OotP makes me think that she's not going to just fade from view. My take on her stunned behaviour in the Infirmary at the end of the book was that she was thinking over her humiliations and totting up the list of who was going to pay. And I'll bet the centaurs are at the top of the list - she was probably fantasizing about wiping out every one of them. I just don't think that she was reflecting on her experience, or had learned anything from it. I think it just provided her more ammunition for her hatreds, and she'll go over to Voldemort because he's the sort who can deliver the goods for someone who has a lot of scores to settle. Wanda From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 19:01:53 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:01:53 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and the Dementors at Privet Drive In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78297 bboy_mn: >>>That got me thinking about Umbridge sending the Dementors to Little Whinging, and I got a sudden chill. It would seem that Umbridge did not send the Dementors with orders to scare the hell out of Harry, or to try and force Harry into performing some magic, but to TAKE HIM OUT and TAKE HIM DOWN. Notice that the Dementors went straight for the kiss. They weren't there for a scary snack, they were there for the full course meal. If the Dementors were truly under the control of the Ministry, they wouldn't have execute the kiss without orders. So it seems crystal clear that Umbridge wanted far more than to discredit Harry and/or get him expelled. She was out for blood, or perhaps I should say out for SOUL.<<< KathyK: I thought this was the case the first time I read that Umbridge was the one to send the Dementors. She wanted Harry out of the way entirely. If she'd just wanted to help Fudge discredit Harry or get him expelled, she could have come up with a less dangerous scheme to get him in trouble with the MoM. After all, Harry got in trouble for Dobby's use of magic in CoS. Umbridge could have orchestrated something similar or could have come up with a plan that forced Harry into using magic without expressley threatening his very SOUL. Instead, she sent the most horrific dark creatures to Little Whinging and they, as bboy_mn mentioned, "went straight for the kiss." Unfortunately for Umbridge, Harry knew how to cast a Patronus (do we think she knew he could do this? I haven't been following the Patronus threads closely enough to say) and saved himself and Dudley from that fate worse than death. This may not have been what Umbridge was hoping for, but getting Harry to use magic was a decent consolation prize. At least they could still expel Harry and subject him to a hearing on his behavior. Too bad for them those efforts were thwarted as well. KathyK From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 18:56:09 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 11:56:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030821185609.32356.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78298 "Doriane" wrote: > > > > I've been thinking about it right from the moment > I read DD's > > explanation of Harry's "special power" : > > > > OoP, chapter 37 : > > > > 'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries > that is kept locked > > at all times. It contains a force that is at once > more wonderful > and > > more terrible than death, than human intelligence, > than the forces > of > > nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious > of the many > subjects > > for study that reside there. It is the power held > within that room > > that you possess in such quantities and which > Voldemort has not at > > all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. > That power also > > saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he > could not bear > to > > reside in a body so full of the force he detests. > In the end, it > > mattered not that you could not close your mind. > It was your heart > > that saved you.' > > > > Can you see how the word "love", or anything else > for that matter, > is > > not mentioned a single time ? Knowing JKR the way > we know her, that > > should signal "Beware ! Trap !" We all think of > love right away, > and > > I think this is *precisely* what she *wants* us to > think of ! But > she > > never ever mentions it. So I think that power is > not love at all. > > > > Let's see : > > > > -it's a power that is so special that the room > where it is studied > > has to be locked at all times : why would anyone > want to keep > people > > out of the Love room ? In my idea, it should even > be a room where > > everyone should be made to go once in a while : it > would make the > > world a much nicer place :-) > > > > - it is a power more wonderful and more terrible > than death : love > is > > more wonderful than death, all right, but more > terrible ?? > > > > - it's a mysterious power > > > > - Harry possesses lots of that power, and > Voldemort none : I agree > > that Voldemort doesn't love, but I don't see Harry > as being so full > > of love. He's full of many emotions, but love > doesn't strike me as > > one of the most prominent ones. > > > > - it's the power that took Harry to save Sirius : > it isn't love in > > itself that made Harry go to the MoM, but his > desire to help him, > his > > hope to save him. > > > > - it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't > reside in a body > > full of it : Voldemort doesn't hate love. He > doesn't understand it, > > he despises it, but he doesn't hate it. > > > > So what could that power be ? I'm not sure, but > one possibility > would > > be Hope. Not just hope that I'll get rich > tomorrow, but Hope that > > things will turn out all right in the end. A Hope > bordering on > Faith, > > to use a Christian terminology. > > > > You see : > > > > -it's a power that is so special that the room > where it is studied > > has to be locked at all times : remember what > happens to people > when > > they are faced with the Mirror of Erised ? They > get fascinated by > it. > > Some even waste their whole life away looking into > it. I think it > > would be the same with a Hope room : people would > get trapped into > > it, because they would feel so much hope in it, > that the outside > > world would seem unbearably desperate to them. > > > > - it is a power more wonderful and more terrible > than death : > because > > he's got this hope of seeing Sirius again when he > dies, Harry is > > ready to sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort. As > such, it is more > > wonderful than death. But for other people who > hope for what they > > can't ever obtain, it is more terrible than death, > but it makes > them > > live an excruciating nightmare every single day of > their lives. > > > > - it's a mysterious power : why do many people > hope for things when > > everything seems to tell them those things will > never come true, > that > > is a mystery indeed. > > > > - Harry possesses lots of that power, and > Voldemort none : Harry > > always had a lot of hope, he keeps thinking he can > get out of the > > trickiest and deadliest situations and that > something will happen > to > > turn a desperate situation around. That's why he's > always trying, > > always acting, because he's got this hope that in > the end things > will > > turn out right if he gives his best. But LV > doesn't have any Hope. > > He's got small desires, for sure, but no real hope > for anything. He > > wants what he knows he can obtain, but he doesn't > have any hope for > a > > better life. > > > > - it's the power that took Harry to save Sirius : > as I already > said, > > it was his hope to save Sirius that took Harry all > the way to the > > MoM. He kept hoping against reason that Sirius was > still alive and > > that he, Harry, would somehow free him from > Voldemort. > > > > - it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't > reside in a body > > full of it : it was the joy Harry felt at the idea > of seeing Sirius > > again that kicked LV out of Harry's body. And that > joy came from > that > > deep hope that Harry nurtured, that the people who > go through the > > veil are still alive somewhere somehow. Moreover, > Hope is the worst > > enemy of any tyrant : as long as people keep > hoping that things can > > get better, they can't be crushed. They can be > isolated, tortured, > or > > whatever, as long as they have hope, they keep > fighting. So for > > someone like Voldemort, Hope would be the worst > feeling people can > > feel, because it keeps them fighting against him, > no matter how > > powerful he gets. > > > > So what do you think ? Am I completely off-track > or what ? Shoot > > away ! > > Buttercup: EUREKA!! I think you've got it! I always thought love was too obvious too. But HOPE that's got to be it. That's what JKR had to keep hold of while she was unemployed and struggling. Hope is the key for everything: love, happiness, achievement, faith, etc. Without it you wouldn't get out of bed every morning. Without it you'd have a miserable existence. Brilliant! Thanks for sharing your thoughts. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 19:17:21 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:17:21 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <20030821141252.34127.qmail@web41511.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78299 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lynda Pringle wrote: > > I think that Snape's mind is "above" such petty > matters as hygiene and clean hair. Even if he were to > notice his appearance in the mirror, he probably would > just shrug it off. I don't think he cares. Lynda > Talisman, who has been riding DD's spiral staircase, twirls around to say: O.K., and that is exactly why it's notable that after DD, McG and Snape burst into the room, and DD was kicking Crouch, Jr. over, McG was rushing to Harry, but our vampishly dark and greasy hero continued "looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still visible. . .. (679) He just not used to showing up in mirrors, or pictures. Just to put a cap on the picture question, there is no way to determine when the picture was taken, no way to determine what Snape was doing at the time, and even no way of determining whether as a DE Snape was a mole for LV, giving him a perfect cover for being in any picture. I'm just saying that it's all moot because he wouldn't show up anyway. And, for anyone who has missed prior posts, Snape's being in Jr.'s Foe-Glass puts to rest the question of who's side he's on. For those who didn't catch the vibe early on. Talisman, who's putting her Galleons down on Snape for Defense Against Dark Arts Master in Book 6. And I do mean Master. From sydpad at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 19:22:13 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:22:13 -0000 Subject: Centaurs/Umbridge In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78300 Aam wrote: Can JKR write about such a horrible event without mentioning it overtly ? without referring to the person to whom it was inflicted as a victim ? Can she still poke fun at Umbridge as though nothing hadreally happened ? Can she instil the idea, inside her readers' mind,that it's a well- founded punishement owing to Umbridge's overall attitude ? And last (not really in fact) but not least, we know that JKR usually gives hints more than she actually describes things in their crudeness, sometimes even leading her to a kind of "euphemised" way of writing. Do you think her style is appropriate for such a topic ? Now me: I think there's a, for lack a better word, cruel streak in Rowling that reminds me a lot of Jane Austen. They seem like such cuddly writers, then in "Persuasion" Austen laughs at the "large fat sighs" of a mother who's son was killed, because "nobody much cared him for when he was alive". An on-screen rape would be a bit much, but so far we've had people tortured into insanity, slaughtered in their beds, held captive for decades in prisons of medieval cruelty, and murdered by their psychopathic sons (twice!). Despite the uniquely terrible glamour surrouding rape, I don't think she would shun the very concept. The more I think of it, the more Umbridge's being swept off by the Centaurs, seems more of a cosmic irony than a punishment. It was Hermionie, who shares a bit of Umbrigian overconfidence in civilization herself, who unleashed primal forces and narrowly escaped herself and Harry being consumed by them as well. I don't think Rowling believes that a tidiable, civilizible universe is possible; that rather at some point you have to accept the existence of awesome, uncontrollable forces, represented by the Forbidden Forest. I love, love, LOVE Porphyria's essay (findable here: http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oAhFP4l-dyBadaEzBAW5vbl5TbCLWSLShTxrpBfc85e10QYfxgX06JRrCG2HCzIaohInxlgSbaMd0gHE/Essays/job.html ) on the books' relationship to the Book of Job and specifically Hagrid's love of brutal, murderous monsters as referencing Behemoth and Leviathan. I don't have "Fantastic Beasts" on me, but I remember something about the centaurs insisting on remaining 'Beasts', refusing to subsume their animal nature. I guess that's why I thought of "The Bacchae", which is a similar sort of story to Umbrige's. Except that it's just possible that having your own mother rip your head off with her bare hands is a worse fate even than rape! As for what really happened; in a way, that's a "How many children had Lady Macbeth" sort of question. I know it's a bit of a cop-out, but if she's off-screen, and it's not going to hook back up to any plot point, "what really happened" exists in a kind of poetic limbo of implications (yikes, have to cut down on the coffee...). Is it possible it crossed JKR's mind? I think, personally, that it certainly did, that she knew perfectly well that writing about a screaming woman being dragged off into the woods by incarnations of bestial nature would, well, put ideas into people's heads. Plausible deniability, I says. Just a reply to some interesting points brough up by Matt-- > --- AAm wrote: > > Matt wrote : > > > > Conversely, an assault would contradict > > > > much of what we have heard about the > > > > centaurs' moral principles. > > > > > What have we really learned about their > > moral principles ? Besides, are those > > principles conscientiously applied ? From > > what I've already read I must say that I > > can't really judge. > > We've learned that the ethics of the Forbidden > Forest centaurs revolve around passivity. > They observe, they experience, they predict, > but they do not interfere with the course of > human events. They are not interested in > preventing Quirrell/Voldemort from hunting > down and killing unicorns even when it occurs > in their own backyard. I concede that we have > learned most of this from Firenze (the others > barely ever speak, except to warn folks out of > the Forest). But Firenze is consistently > portrayed as representing the views of his > people in this regard at least. (Indeed, is > that not supposed to be the reason DD hired > him?) > > > > > It would be an act of abuse, inconsistent > > > > with the Centaurs' rejection of evil (and > > > > good). It would be a supreme act of > > > > interference with the affairs of humans. > > > > Well, in fact, I had the impression that from > > the centaurs' POV the interference was H, H and > > Umbridge's fault. . . . > > Thus, it appeared to me that the [centaurs] > > were so enraged that the problem "to interfer > > or not to interfer with the affairs of humans" > > had somehow already been solved. > > I made two points, and you have addresed the second. > I think your response largely comes back to your > earlier premise that the centaurs do not > consistently apply any particular moral framework > (with a gloss that they would be particularly > unlikely to do so when fired up). I disagree with > the premise: when JKR has the centaurs say (I am > paraphrasing) "our laws are not your laws," I think > she means us to understand that the centaurs are > creatures of principle, even if the principles they > apply are different. > > I agree that the centaurs were angry and out of > control, but (and this gets back to my first point, > which you did not address) as I read them they > were moved by a desire to assert control over their > domain, not to abuse or torment Umbridge personally. Our view is complicated by the fact that the main Centaur we know personally is Firenze. But remember that he was already reprimanded for saving Harry's life in PS. In that sense, I don't think they subscribe to a different, but recognizably human, set of ethics than the wizarding world. It reminds me more, actually, of the Law that the animals followed in the Jungle Book. It set out every animals proper place in the scheme of things, but didn't say anything against wolves eating deer. I think the Centaur's law, as they perceive it, is the Law of Nature-- that interferring with the natural course of things is sinful in some way. The schemes and machinations of humans, and the attempts of governments to control fate, is the ultimate embodiment of hubris. Of course, I could just be totally getting carried away with my nice little force of nature/civilization thing...;) > This was not > to assert that the centaurs are political liberalists, > just that they were looking for this particular type > of respect. Perhaps they would demand this respect > from humans without being willing to give it in > return, but again (and we may differ here) I think > they are too principled to sink to that level of > hypocrisy. I'm not sure if that's hypocritical-- I don't know if a Centaur WOULD expect to be treated with respect if they went out of the forest. Matt again: > > Turning to a different post, Tamee wrote: > > > I believe that what sent Umbridge into such a > > catatonic state is that SHE believed [the centaurs] > > would do that and worse. After all, she calls them > > "filthy half-breeds" as well as "uncontrolled > > animals", and as she's being hauled off she's > > wandless and without defense, and knowing that in > > her position she'd be indulging in her own brand of > > cruelty, she expects them to behave in whatever > > bestial way she can imagine. > > I find this reading much more credible than the > readings that infer an actual sexual assault. It is > consistent with Umbridge's character, and also with > JKR's portrayal of interspecies ignorance and > prejudice in the WW in general (e.g., most of the > wizarding public always assuming the worst about > werewolves, giants, goblins, etc.). Yes, but giants really ARE, in general, brutal, violent, and murderous. In the earlier books, the happy version of "overcome your prejudices and everything will be fine" vision prevailed, as was appropriate for the younger viewpoint. I think this idea is starting to change into something else-- that you have to continue to be true to your principles of treating everyone as an individual and accepting them for who they are, without expecting everything to be all sunshiny because you do. Sydney From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 21 19:31:59 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:31:59 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Foe-Glass (was: Where is Snape????) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > Talisman, who has been riding DD's spiral staircase, twirls around > to say: > > O.K., and that is exactly why it's notable that after DD, McG and > Snape burst into the room, and DD was kicking Crouch, Jr. over, McG > was rushing to Harry, but our vampishly dark and greasy hero > continued "looking into the Foe-Glass, where his own face was still > visible. . .. (679) > > He just not used to showing up in mirrors, or pictures. > You know, I'd never thought until now about exactly how the Foe- Glass works. I'd assumed it was like the Mirror of Erised, and its reflection agreed with whoever was standing directly in front of it. But it sounds as if it's "set" to be used by one owner. I thought that Harry saw Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape because he wasn't looking directly at it. Frankly, I thought that Snape was looking at the Foe-Glass because it would be able to show him HIS enemy (and what if that was himself?) Wanda From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 19:35:40 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:35:40 -0000 Subject: new thoughts after rereading SS/PS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78302 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sberinsky" wrote: > The prophecy talks about voldemort marking harry, which I had always > taken to mean the scar. In the first book though, Dumbledore refers > to Lily marking Harry with her love when she dies to save him. In > the fourth book, Voldemort takes some of Harry's own blood, so he > can get the residing protection. But it's almost like he's marking > himself with something good, wherease Harry is good but marked with > evil. Like they compliment each other, and in a very strange way > slowly becoming one. In the fifth book, this trend continues, with > Harry lapsing into Voldemorts thoughts, and at the end, with > Voldemort possessing him. > > In book two, Harry himself points out how much he is like Tom > Riddle. Except where Tom is choosing evil, Harry is choosing good. > Opposites. And Harry shows mercy (book three, when he does not > allow pettigrew to be killed) wherease Voldemort does not (his > ditching Quirrel in book one). > > The problem with all these theories, is that I cannot tell where > it's going. Summarizing, Harry and Voldemort are seeming to become > one creation, (I keep thinking of them like a Yin and Yang) but > where do we go from here? > > Stacy There's one more thing: Voldemort chose to live his life the way he is. He got ambitious and gathered power and followers. Harry, however, was thrown into it without any choice. From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 19:41:16 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:41:16 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable v. Illegal (Was: Re: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > jsmgleaner: > By the way, that makes me think: why "unfrorgivable"? > Shirley: > I don't know why the "unforgiveable" label ..."illegal" seems more appropriate to me. > KathyK: > The other thought I have is that "Unforgiveable" sounds much more > dramatic than simply, "Illegal." Talisman, putting on her coif for a moment, suggests: In the English (and American) legal system, equity trumps the law. (May it ever be so.) Therefore, the law can be "put aside" for the right reasons--say where it leads to an unjust result. "Unforgivable" suggests to me that no equitable argument will be accepted as an excuse. (Though we see that no categorization can protect the community from evil leaders.) It also invokes moral as well as merely legal censure, and so is more dramatic. Talisman, who thinks the Yahoo curse should be unforgivable, too. From dropaad at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 19:54:12 2003 From: dropaad at yahoo.com (dropaad) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:54:12 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78304 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > First, this is my first post, so forgive the interruption and the > length. > > In reading the posts, it occurs to me that we actually know quite a > bit more than we may realize about books 6&7. So I thought, with less > than a couple thousand pages left (gasp!), what things do we KNOW must > happen? Perhaps this could help us to better structure our discussion > and/or predictions. I'll take a quick stab as a start, but please do > add. Remember, we want events that are a reasonable certainty. > > BOOK # / DIRECTLY VIEWED? (vs. related to us via a third party) / > EVENT > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > ----------- > Book 6: Yes: Partial Summer at Dursleys > Book 6: Yes: Explanation for Aunt Petunia's Dementor Knowledge > Book 6: ???: MoM Takes Some Action Against LV/Des (2nd War) > Book 6: Yes: Return to Hogwarts > Book 6: Yes: New DADA > Book 6: Yes: Harry and Ron on the Same Quidditch Team > Book 6: Yes: Harry Keeps a Secret He Shouldn't > Book 6: Yes: Something Terrible Happens > Book 6: Yes: Harry Tries to Save the Day > Book 6: Yes: Introduce 3-5 Minor Characters > Book 6: Yes: 1-3 Minor Characters Become Major > Book 6: ???: Dementors Returned to Azkaban > Book 6: ???: Grawp Tamed or Leaves > Book 6: ???: Harry Learns Occlumency > Book 7: Yes: Partial Summer at Dursleys > Book 7: Yes: Return to Hogwarts > Book 7: ???: Head Boy/Girl Named > Book 7: Yes: Introduce 3-5 Important New Characters > Book 7: Yes: 1-3 Minor Characters Become Major > Book ?: ???: Harry Learns Snape's Secret > Book ?: ???: Goblins/Giants/Others Somehow Enter the Fray > Book ?: Yes: Metamorphmagus Is Momentarily Important > Book ?: Yes: Harry Learns More About His Parents > Book ?: Yes: H/R/H's SHIPs Come In at Last > Book 7: Yes: Full Disclosure of the Prophecy's Meaning > Book 7: Yes: Final Harry vs. Voldemort > > Wow-that's already going to take up a dozen or more chapters! > > Remnant > -with lots of time before #6 Wow, an analytical mind :-) How about these: Book 6: Unveiling the veil Book 6 ending: Dumbledore is mortally wounded/dies/falls into the veil. Book 7: Wormtail saves Harry but then Lestrange killed Wormtail drop From ssk7882 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 20:01:33 2003 From: ssk7882 at yahoo.com (ssk7882) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:01:33 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable v. Illegal (Was: Re: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78305 jsmgleaner wrote: > By the way, that makes me think: why "unfrorgivable"? Have people > on this list parsed that word choice already? I mean, as opposed > to "illegal," although I know that Fake!Moody uses that term in the > GoF chapter as well. Hi, jsmgleaner. I have no idea whether this has been discussed recently or not either. I've been *totally* out of the loop, and I just got back, and really, you're all just lucky that I didn't ask about those thestrals. (Or maybe *I'm* just lucky that I didn't ask about those thestrals!) But for what it's worth, my understanding of the "Unforgivable" designation derives from these two passages, both from the "Unforgivable Curses" chapter of GoF. Crouch!Moody opens his lecture on the UCs with this: -------------------------------------------------------- "So. . . do any of you know which curses are most heavily punished by wizarding law?" -------------------------------------------------------- And concludes his demonstration of said curses with this: --------------------------------------------------------- "Now...those three curses -- Avada Kedavra, Imperius, and Cruciatus -- are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban." ---------------------------------------------------------- The phrasing of those two passages led me to assume that the UCs are classified as "Unforgivable," as opposed to merely "illegal," because no mitigating circumstance would be considered sufficient either to excuse ("forgive") their use or to justify softening the legal penalty. In other words, you can't AK someone and then plead self-defense in order to get a reduced sentence or to avoid going to prison. You would still be sent to Azkaban for life, no matter *why* you used the UC. Murder itself is illegal but potentially "forgivable" for reasons of self-defense, accident, lack of malicious intent, or what have you. But the use of the UCs carries with it automatic and unavoidable (and very strict) penalty. Of course, the fact that Crouch!Moody cheerfully Imperios his students in DADA class, presumably with the full sanction of Dumbledore, does rather imply that the WW's cultural attitudes towards the UCs have changed a bit. I imagine that Crouch Sr's sanction of the use of the UCs on suspects by Aurors likely had much to do with this shift in cultural attitude. In Umbridge, I think we're being shown an example of where such erosion of cultural taboo eventually leads. 'Ware the slippery slope! ;-) KathyK wrote: > To me, they're called unforgiveable because they're > three curses that give an individual much too much > power over other people. Absolutely. I think that they were, at one time, deemed "Unforgivable" because: (a) they have no other use but to strip an individual of his power of self-determination and volition (which given the series' thematic emphasis on *choice* is a particularly dire assault within the meta-textual construct of the world) [for a great post on this topic, check out Ali's message #45286 from last October]; and (b) if we are to believe dear Bellatrix, then in order to use them effectively, the intent must be there, and the intent must be pure. This makes the ramifications of their use rather more serious than other methods of achieving even the same dire effects would be; and possibly also (c) dark magic may well have a corrosive power over those who use it even above and beyond the normal levels of moral degradation that accompany the commission of evil acts. Elkins (who has also only read OoP once, and the last gazillion HPfGU messages not at all, and who therefore apologizes if she's just posted something totally redundant) From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 20:11:02 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:11:02 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Foe-Glass (was: Where is Snape????) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78307 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > > You know, I'd never thought until now about exactly how the Foe- > Glass works. I'd assumed it was like the Mirror of Erised, and its reflection agreed with whoever was standing directly in front of > it. But it sounds as if it's "set" to be used by one owner. I > thought that Harry saw Dumbledore, McGonagall and Snape because he > wasn't looking directly at it. Frankly, I thought that Snape was > looking at the Foe-Glass because it would be able to show him HIS > enemy (and what if that was himself?) > > Wanda Talisman, who knows she's supposed to be doing _something_else, says: Unless such defensivly magical objects are "set" per owner, all the rememberalls would go off every time I walked into the room. Seriously, under your earlier theory, if Harry was able to see Jr.'s foes only because he was not directly in front of the Foe-Glass, it amounts to the same result. Snape was there. (Although logistics are always tricky in these scenes, it seems DD, McG and S WERE in front of it, and they are not all foes to themselves/each other or Harry.) F o McG D e DD o H Jr.* X S o G r l a s s *(mirror (X) in line with where Jr.'s head used to be, Jr. now on floor)(GoF 679) Can't deny Snape is his own worst enemy, though. The lovely brooding darling that he is. Talisman, who is going to be good one of these days. From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Aug 21 20:39:59 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:39:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? Message-ID: <167.249de809.2c76881f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78308 In a message dated 8/21/2003 2:24:40 AM Eastern Daylight Time, EnsTren at aol.com writes: > I have a simply solution to this. > > He walked off the edge of the picture. > > Really, even if he allowed a picture to be taken, do you think picture snape > > would stay in the buddy buddy happiness picture? No, he's haul himself off > to > picture land dungeons and potions lab > Oooh - here's a horrid. PETTIGREW KNOWS about Snape's spying... Look out Sevvie!!!!!!!!! Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 20:50:41 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:50:41 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78309 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dropaad" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" > wrote: > > First, this is my first post, so forgive the interruption and the > > length. > > > > In reading the posts, it occurs to me that we actually know quite > a > > bit more than we may realize about books 6&7. So I thought, with > less > > than a couple thousand pages left (gasp!), what things do we KNOW > must > > happen? Perhaps this could help us to better structure our > discussion > > and/or predictions. I'll take a quick stab as a start, but please > do > > add. Remember, we want events that are a reasonable certainty. > > > > BOOK # / DIRECTLY VIEWED? (vs. related to us via a third party) / > > EVENT > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- -- > --- > > ----------- > > Book 6: Yes: Partial Summer at Dursleys > > Book 6: Yes: Explanation for Aunt Petunia's Dementor Knowledge > > Book 6: ???: MoM Takes Some Action Against LV/Des (2nd War) > > Book 6: Yes: Return to Hogwarts > > Book 6: Yes: New DADA > > Book 6: Yes: Harry and Ron on the Same Quidditch Team > > Book 6: Yes: Harry Keeps a Secret He Shouldn't > > Book 6: Yes: Something Terrible Happens > > Book 6: Yes: Harry Tries to Save the Day > > Book 6: Yes: Introduce 3-5 Minor Characters > > Book 6: Yes: 1-3 Minor Characters Become Major > > Book 6: ???: Dementors Returned to Azkaban > > Book 6: ???: Grawp Tamed or Leaves > > Book 6: ???: Harry Learns Occlumency > > Book 7: Yes: Partial Summer at Dursleys > > Book 7: Yes: Return to Hogwarts > > Book 7: ???: Head Boy/Girl Named > > Book 7: Yes: Introduce 3-5 Important New Characters > > Book 7: Yes: 1-3 Minor Characters Become Major > > Book ?: ???: Harry Learns Snape's Secret > > Book ?: ???: Goblins/Giants/Others Somehow Enter the Fray > > Book ?: Yes: Metamorphmagus Is Momentarily Important > > Book ?: Yes: Harry Learns More About His Parents > > Book ?: Yes: H/R/H's SHIPs Come In at Last > > Book 7: Yes: Full Disclosure of the Prophecy's Meaning > > Book 7: Yes: Final Harry vs. Voldemort > > > > Wow-that's already going to take up a dozen or more chapters! > > > > Remnant > > -with lots of time before #6 > > Wow, an analytical mind :-) > > How about these: > > Book 6: Unveiling the veil > > Book 6 ending: Dumbledore is mortally wounded/dies/falls into the > veil. > > Book 7: Wormtail saves Harry but then Lestrange killed Wormtail > > drop And a couple more: Book 6: Lucius Malfoy gets out of Azkaban and causes problems (id you really think he would stay put??) Book 7: We find out what happens to the survivors. Ravenclaw Bookworm From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 21 20:54:41 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:54:41 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Foe-Glass (was: Where is Snape????) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78310 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > Seriously, under your earlier theory, if Harry was able to see Jr.'s > foes only because he was not directly in front of the Foe-Glass, it > amounts to the same result. Snape was there. (Although logistics > are always tricky in these scenes, it seems DD, McG and S WERE in > front of it, and they are not all foes to themselves/each other or > Harry.) > F > o > McG D e > DD o H Jr.* X > S o G > r l > a > s > s > *(mirror (X) in line with where Jr.'s head used to be, Jr. now on > floor)(GoF 679) > Nice diagram! Funny, it didn't show up when I read the post on the numbered messages board, but it DID format itself correctly when I hit the "Reply" button. I only meant that nobody sees the same thing in the Foe-Glass. Like in the Mirror of Erised, Harry can't see Ron's vision, and Ron can't see Harry's. So Harry would not be able to see what Snape was seeing in the Foe-Glass, and presumably Dumbledore and McGonagall would each be seeing something different too. This doesn't explain, though, why he could see *Crouch's* enemies in the Foe-Glass, so that's why I think now that it must be set for a particular user. However, the Room of Requirement had a Foe-Glass in it, too - how would it have functioned? Was it set for Harry's use alone, as he was the one who requested the room? Wanda > Can't deny Snape is his own worst enemy, though. The lovely brooding > darling that he is. > > Talisman, who is going to be good one of these days. From navarro198 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 21 20:37:37 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:37:37 -0000 Subject: Who is Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Hi, > I did search posts but couldn't find this.....If Dumbledore knows > everything that is going on then how did he not know there were three > unregistered animagi running around Hogwart? Why did he not know > that Moody was not Moody? Why did he need Veritaserum when he did > discover Barty/Moody? > Susan who is on an emotional rollercoaster when it comes to > Dumbledore. Just a few hours ago, my daughter told me "Mom, you're so smart. You know everything." Since she is almost a teen (and had a hint of sarcasm in her voice ) I take the comment with a grain of salt, but your post reminded me of this comment. Even though I find out a lot of things, I would never claim to know everything my kids get into when out of my sight. To the rest of us, Dumbledore is "so smart" and "knows" everything that happens. He just *seems* omnipotent. Ravenclaw Bookworm (who wishes she had some Veritaserum on hand on *certain* occasions...) From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 21:14:09 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:14:09 -0000 Subject: Snape and the Foe-Glass/Urgh! (was: Where is Snape????) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78312 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > Nice diagram! Funny, it didn't show up when I read the post on the numbered messages board, but it DID format itself correctly when I hit the "Reply" button. > Wanda Talisman, thanking Wanda for the heads-up: Urgh! Yahoomort has jinxed my diagram into scrambled eggs! It DOES only make sense in reply mode. Please don't anyone try to figure out or respond to the one visible in the numbered post. Talisman, who wonders what Trelawney would make of those alphabetic entrails. From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 21:22:32 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:22:32 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable v. Illegal (Was: Re: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78313 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ssk7882" wrote: > > Elkins (who has also only read OoP once, and the last > gazillion HPfGU messages not at all, and who > therefore apologizes if she's just posted > something totally redundant) GASP! Elkins is back! I thought I recognized those s's! NOW we're in for a party. Melpomene, who's going to get the boot for this one but doesn't care 'cause she's too busy happy dancin'! From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 21:27:58 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:27:58 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" wrote: party) / > > > EVENT > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > Book 6: Unveiling the veil >> > And a couple more: > Book 6: Lucius Malfoy gets out of Azkaban and causes problems (id > you really think he would stay put??) > Book 7: We find out what happens to the survivors. me: Don't forget: Book 6: Harry misunderstands Snape's actions Book 6: Harry blames Snape Book 7: Harry misunderstands Snape's action Book 7: Harry blames Snape and yes I read the suggestion that Harry learns Snape's secret. What I didn't see was: Book 6: Harry *gives* a schnitt. Melpomene who is hoping the next 2 books *do* offer a couple of surprises. From shokoono at gmx.de Thu Aug 21 20:50:04 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:50:04 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] new thoughts after rereading SS/PS References: Message-ID: <008e01c3682a$9c2ce950$6cf3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78315 Stacy: > The prophecy talks about voldemort marking harry, which I had always > taken to mean the scar. In the first book though, Dumbledore refers > to Lily marking Harry with her love when she dies to save him. In > the fourth book, Voldemort takes some of Harry's own blood, so he > can get the residing protection. But it's almost like he's marking > himself with something good, wherease Harry is good but marked with > evil. Like they compliment each other, and in a very strange way > slowly becoming one. In the fifth book, this trend continues, with > Harry lapsing into Voldemorts thoughts, and at the end, with > Voldemort possessing him. > > In book two, Harry himself points out how much he is like Tom > Riddle. Except where Tom is choosing evil, Harry is choosing good. > Opposites. And Harry shows mercy (book three, when he does not > allow pettigrew to be killed) wherease Voldemort does not (his > ditching Quirrel in book one). > > The problem with all these theories, is that I cannot tell where > it's going. Summarizing, Harry and Voldemort are seeming to become > one creation, (I keep thinking of them like a Yin and Yang) but > where do we go from here? > Me: That's a good point! Well where we could go from here could be (It's odd I know!) that two things being its opposite neutralize each other. Relating to your theory: both are becoming one so far they netralize each other... sticks to the prophecy... but is verry nasty and bloody in my imagination, so I hope they're not. Yours Finchen From dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 21:36:27 2003 From: dudemom_2000 at yahoo.com (dudemom_2000) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:36:27 -0000 Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78316 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunachapter10" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" > wrote: > > - > > *****\(@@)/***** > > > > As a long time knitter I have to say there is a lot more to socks > > that there appears (and not just the knitting part)! JKR wouldn't > > mention such a mundane item unless there was something in it. I > > think the socks are important in some way. Also I think the sweaters > > Molly knits for the Weasleys (and Harry) are important too. Maybe > > she knits some sort of protection into them. Also maybe that is > > another reason she was so upset that Percy returned his sweater - > > possibly he is without an important protection now. > > > > Dudemom_2000 who has knitted every one of the sweaters in the books > > and was vastly disappointed the sweater in OoP was not described but > > is steadily knitting the socks now..... > > > > *****\(@@)/***** > > Sweaters with protection charms built in, I love that theory. I think > the socks represent being happy with the simple things in life, maybe? > > Actually, I was just thinking lately about taking up knitting as a > relaxing past-time when I am not contemplating Potterverse. I know the > dragon and lion sweaters are probably extremely complicated, would it > be too hard for a beginner to do a Hogwarts scarf or even a Weasley > sweater? *****\(@@)/***** The sweaters are very basic ones but I would start with a scarf. There are some great HP forums here that are for costuming and knitting - try MadameMalkins and HP Knits. My Quiddich Sweater Pattern is on HP Knits and I hope to get the others up there eventually. Also check with your local yarn shop or adult education for knitting lessons - I really feel there is something with JKR and knitting - it has come up in every book (hurray!) Dudemom_2000 *****\(@@)/***** From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Aug 21 21:42:27 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:42:27 -0000 Subject: Umbridge and the Centaurs In-Reply-To: <042001c36770$bb6b37f0$43c50c0c@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78317 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamee Livingston" wrote: > Abigail wrote: > > >>>[I'm mercilessly snipping this excellent post]I think the fact that so > many people jumped the conclusion of rape in Umbridge's case - despite very > little hard evidence in the matter - is emblematic of the same kind of > perception. Umbridge needs to be taken down a peg, and how do we do that? > By raping her. [Snip] I'm not pleased by the way JKR wrote Umbridge. > [Snipping description of the positive female character development] But then > there's Umbridge, and the readers who delight in the assumption that she was > raped, because the stuck-up bitch deserved it. I don't like that at all. > <<<< > > Now me (Tamee): > > I really appreciated Abigail's post since it described perfectly what > squicks me out about the thought that Umbridge is raped by centaurs (even > more than trying to figure out the physical logistics of such an act). And > I personally don't believe that the centaurs did any such thing, mainly > because I believe they would consider such a thing degrading to themselves. > > However, I believe that what sent Umbridge into such a catatonic state is > that SHE believed they would do that and worse. After all, she calls them > "filthy half-breeds" as well as "uncontrolled animals", and as she's being > hauled off she's wandless and without defense, and knowing that in her > position she'd be indulging in her own brand of cruelty, she expects them to > behave in whatever bestial way she can imagine. For myself, I believe that > she got carted off and dropped into a pit or placed in some kind of dank and > unpleasant place of confinement while the centaurs fought with Grawp and > each other trying to decide what to do, and that her own imagination reduced > her to the state of shock. > > Tamee Comment from CW: Tamee, I thought this was a very insightful reading of what might have happened, as I too was struggling with the idea of the centaurs anger taking the form of rape. Despite the mythological antecedents, it didn't seem to accord with the way JKR has chosen to write the species so far. Your post powerfully reminded me of the themes of EM Forster's 'Passage to India'. Umbridge could quite easily be seen an ageing Miss Quested, a bitter, repressed virgin, who has never had any success attracting men (I wonder why..), and whose deepest fears include bestial assault. The centaurs' cultural point of view would be quite as opaque to her as Aziz's was to the British Raj. It makes me think she might reappear and agitate for some sort of court case, perhaps about 'false imprisonment of a wizard by a half- breed under decree no XXX', to try and recover her self-esteem. Although we would all love to think she was totally discredited, I can quite imagine an ongoing sub-plot where certain factions in the MoM support her in this (for example, the appalling Percy, other wizards with non-PC/pure-blood 'racist' beliefs), their actions fomented by DEs wherever possible. It would all be part of a very believable chaos as the fight against Voldie gets going, with people lining up and having to choose which side they are on. In Forster's book there was a very ambiguous ending, and the misunderstanding between British and Indian cultures was not resolved, although the criminal charge was withdrawn. A court case against the Centaurs might take a similar course, and have the effect of alienating them for ever as allies. From shokoono at gmx.de Thu Aug 21 21:14:25 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:14:25 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Sirius confusing Harry and James References: Message-ID: <008f01c3682a$9cd97d00$6cf3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78318 > > Jeff wrote: > > Sirius *loves* > > Harry because of this,and yes, he wants his best friend back. > > > > Laura: > > If I may be so immodest as to quote myself from a tbay post earlier > today: > if you look at > it from his POV, you can see where he had good reasons to think that > Harry really was like James. Think about it: whenever Sirius > encounters Harry, Harry shows bravery, audacity, leadership, > intelligence and resourcefulness (in the Shack and during the > Tournament in particular). Harry, like James, is absolutely loyal to > his best friends and he detests the dark arts and everything about > them. If Sirius and Harry had had the chance to live together under > normal circumstances, in which neither one of them was under > emotional pressure, Sirius would have come to see that Harry was his > own person. As it is, it seems natural and reasonable enough for > Sirius to identify in Harry qualities that he valued in his best > friend-we're always looking for our friends in their children. > > What do you think? As for Snape, he had decided that Harry was James > redux before ever meeting him, and nothing Harry could have done > would have changed his mind. > Me: In addition to all of that. What would you do if the ONLY person being so close to you as a brother, for whom you would die because you care so much about died. Then you've been locked away for 13 Years (!) because everybody thought you guilty though you're not (!). After this time you find the son of this person and he looks like the incarnation of him! I imagine Sirius being very desperate about the loss of James (he told us so in PoA in the Shieking Shack, it was no happy thought). Of course, for James was the only Person he loved as one should love a member of his family, he wanted him back so badly. I can think he felt very lonely for nobody could replace this gap within his life... poor man! If I was him (with being so depressed about the loss of James, for there is evidence in the canon that he still was) I would have tried to search him (maily subconcious). I wouldn't be the first, many people do so in a situation like that... This is it for my way of getting into Sirius and trying to understand him (and his psycological conditions)... Yours Finchen From eberte at vaeye.com Thu Aug 21 22:13:50 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:13:50 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable v. Illegal (Was: Re: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78319 > Elkins wrote: > > But for what it's worth, my understanding of the "Unforgivable" > designation derives from these two passages, both from > the "Unforgivable Curses" chapter of GoF. > > Crouch!Moody opens his lecture on the UCs with this: > "So. . . do any of you know which curses are most heavily > punished by wizarding law?" > And concludes his demonstration of said curses with this: > "Now...those three curses -- Avada Kedavra, Imperius, > and Cruciatus -- are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The > use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough > to earn a life sentence in Azkaban." > > The phrasing of those two passages led me to assume that the UCs > are classified as "Unforgivable," as opposed to merely "illegal," > because no mitigating circumstance would be considered sufficient > either to excuse ("forgive") their use or to justify softening the > legal penalty. > Me: The word "unforgivable" certainly connotes that the use of these curses is *absolutely* taboo; however, Elkins gives several good examples of people using these curses without the repercussions one would expect if that were really the case (most notably Crouch/Moody using the Imperius curse on the DADA students.) Perhaps Crouch/Moody's statement that "The use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban" implies only that the curse alone *may be enough* to get you sent to Azkaban for life in some cases, but intent and mitigating circumstances can be taken into account. Notice that he did not say that the use of any of the UCs *mandates, no questions asked* a life sentence in Azkaban. That said, the "unforgivable" label gives these three curses alot of extra punch. There is an element of shock when Umbridge gears up to use the Cruciatus curse on Harry, and when Harry uses the same curse on Bellatrix. The students certainly do not use the UCs to hex each other and seem to take them very seriously. In the scene in DD's office when Umbridge is questioning Marietta and Kingsley "modifies her memory", IMO the description of what he does and how she behaves seems more consistent with the Imperius curse. Significantly, JKR does not let the "good guys" use an UC--even to good ends (at least so far she hasn't--Harry's attempted attack on Bellatrix excepted.) Elle (who loves Elkins' analysis of why the UCs were once deemed unforgivable and had to *force* herself to snip it as she had nothing to add to it and does not want to run afoul of the snipping police!) From eberte at vaeye.com Thu Aug 21 22:04:27 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:04:27 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable v. Illegal (Was: Re: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78320 > Elkins wrote: > > But for what it's worth, my understanding of the "Unforgivable" > designation derives from these two passages, both from > the "Unforgivable Curses" chapter of GoF. > > Crouch!Moody opens his lecture on the UCs with this: > "So. . . do any of you know which curses are most heavily > punished by wizarding law?" > And concludes his demonstration of said curses with this: > "Now...those three curses -- Avada Kedavra, Imperius, > and Cruciatus -- are known as the Unforgivable Curses. The > use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough > to earn a life sentence in Azkaban." > > The phrasing of those two passages led me to assume that the UCs > are classified as "Unforgivable," as opposed to merely "illegal," > because no mitigating circumstance would be considered sufficient > either to excuse ("forgive") their use or to justify softening the > legal penalty. > Me: The word "unforgivable" certainly connotes that the use of these curses is *absolutely* taboo; however, Elkins gives several good examples of people using these curses without the repercussions one would expect if that were really the case (most notably Crouch/Moody using the Imperius curse on the DADA students.) Perhaps Crouch/Moody's statement that "The use of any one of them on a fellow human being is enough to earn a life sentence in Azkaban" implies only that the curse alone *may be enough* to get you sent to Azkaban for life in some cases, but intent and mitigating circumstances can be taken into account. Notice that he did not say that the use of any of the UCs *mandates, no questions asked* a life sentence in Azkaban. That said, the "unforgivable" label gives these three curses alot of extra punch. There is an element of shock when Umbridge gears up to use the Cruciatus curse on Harry, and when Harry uses the same curse on Bellatrix. The students certainly do not use the UCs to hex each other and seem to take them very seriously. In the scene in DD's office when Umbridge is questioning Marietta and Kingsley "modifies her memory", IMO the description of what he does and how she behaves seems more consistent with the Imperius curse. Significantly, JKR does not let the "good guys" use an UC--even to good ends (at least so far she hasn't--Harry's attempted attack on Bellatrix excepted.) Elle (who loves Elkins' analysis of why the UCs were once deemed unforgivable and had to *force* herself to snip it as she had nothing to add to it and does not want to run afoul of the snipping police!) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 21 22:24:31 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:24:31 -0000 Subject: Can the Cruciatus Curse kill? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78321 We know that if it's used enough, the Cruciatus Curse can drive someone insane (the Longbottoms). Can it possibly kill someone, or can that only be done by the AK? Wanda From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 22:50:17 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:50:17 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE2487D1@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78322 Tonya said: Yeah your probably right. IT's still gross, he needs to get rid of the the greasy hair. Now me: Has anyone ever thought that perhaps Snape cultivated that look? It certainly would put people off from getting too close to him. His appearance makes the first impression. He wears all black. He is forbiding in his mannerisms. And his behavior in his class on Harry's first day there would certainly seem to tell the students to back off. I think that his appearance is to be equated with the "gothic" look that is popular among kids now. When Harry stared into the pensieve he witnessed some of Snape's early childhood. Seems to me that Snape was as neglected as Harry, but instead of taking the road that Harry is, he turned to the Dark Arts, and to put people off from getting too close for comfort, adopted his look. Greasy looking hair doesn't necessarily mean poor hygene. As Linda Richman would say, I'm ferklempt (sorry about the spelling), discuss... D From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 21 22:56:36 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:56:36 -0000 Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lunachapter10" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dudemom_2000" > > wrote: > > > - > > > *****\(@@)/***** > > > > > > As a long time knitter I have to say there is a lot more to > socks > > > that there appears (and not just the knitting part)! JKR > wouldn't > > > mention such a mundane item unless there was something in it. I > > > think the socks are important in some way. Also I think the > sweaters > > > Molly knits for the Weasleys (and Harry) are important too. > Maybe > > > she knits some sort of protection into them. Also maybe that is > > > another reason she was so upset that Percy returned his sweater - > > > > possibly he is without an important protection now. > > > > > > Dudemom_2000 who has knitted every one of the sweaters in the > books > > > and was vastly disappointed the sweater in OoP was not described > but > > > is steadily knitting the socks now..... > > > > > > *****\(@@)/***** > > > > Sweaters with protection charms built in, I love that theory. I > think > > the socks represent being happy with the simple things in life, > maybe? > > > > Actually, I was just thinking lately about taking up knitting as a > > relaxing past-time when I am not contemplating Potterverse. I know > the > > dragon and lion sweaters are probably extremely complicated, would > it > > be too hard for a beginner to do a Hogwarts scarf or even a Weasley > > sweater? > > *****\(@@)/***** > > The sweaters are very basic ones but I would start with a scarf. > There are some great HP forums here that are for costuming and > knitting - try MadameMalkins and HP Knits. My Quiddich Sweater > Pattern is on HP Knits and I hope to get the others up there > eventually. Also check with your local yarn shop or adult education > for knitting lessons - I really feel there is something with JKR and > knitting - it has come up in every book (hurray!) > > Dudemom_2000 > > *****\(@@)/***** This thread appears to be getting a little woolly. Could I shepherd it back on topic? Does anyone else on list find the moment when Ron chucks his mother's hand-knitted sweater at Dobby for a Christmas present (GoF) *supremely* ungrateful? I know he gets one every year, but to treat a lovingly hand made gift as something to thow away !!! As Dudemom says, there seems to be something about JKR and knitting. Hand knitting seems to be a shorthand for love. Molly lovingly knits sweaters for her children each Christmas (even with magic I shudder at the time it must take to knit seven of them). Dobby hand knits socks for Harry - showing that he has genuine affection for Harry. Dumbledore's deepest desire is for socks. Hand knitted socks, perhaps? Pip!Squeak [who will now wander off rather sheepishly] From rdhdwldflwr at comcast.net Thu Aug 21 23:13:41 2003 From: rdhdwldflwr at comcast.net (Sharon) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:13:41 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible silly question about Werewolves References: Message-ID: <005001c3683a$13a0c100$af587d18@ce1.client2.attbi.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78324 Dark Lady said -Lupin, in discussing his lycanthropy, says that "they didn't have a cure BACK THEN." (Emphasis obviously my own. ) Would that not imply that there is a cure NOW?" I wondered that too and why isn't the guy in book 5 getting the cure? Sharon [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 23:17:52 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:17:52 -0000 Subject: Can the Cruciatus Curse kill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78325 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > We know that if it's used enough, the Cruciatus Curse can drive > someone insane (the Longbottoms). Can it possibly kill someone, or > can that only be done by the AK? > > Wanda bboy_mn: Short version: Yes! Anything has potentially lethal implication if used to an extreme. Even a tickle charm, if carried on long enough, can become as painful as a pain curse. As a side note, I was once relentlessly tickled until I became hysterically violent; it wasn't fun or funny. I'm sure given the resulting knife wound scar on my brother's hand, he would be inclined to agree with me. So, I think the Cruciatus curse could be used to such an extreme that a person would simply give up living rather than continue to endure the pain. In the case of the Longbottoms, I think rather than simple give up life, their mind/body/spirit pushed them into a sensory numbing insanity as a way of escaping the pain. Sadly, once you have been pushed to the point where you've 'snapped' to escape that pain, it is extremely difficult to 'UN-snap'. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 23:23:16 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:23:16 -0000 Subject: Possible silly question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: <005001c3683a$13a0c100$af587d18@ce1.client2.attbi.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78326 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sharon" wrote: > Dark Lady said -Lupin, in discussing his lycanthropy, says that "they didn't have a cure BACK THEN." (Emphasis obviously my own. ) Would that > not imply that there is a cure NOW?" > > I wondered that too and why isn't the guy in book 5 getting the cure? > > Sharon bboy_mn: This assumes that Lupin used the term CURE in the absolute literal sense, and not in the general 'we all know what I mean' conversational sense. I think the intended context is the general conversational sense. It doesn't imply that there is a cure now, only that 'back then' there was nothing he could do. Now at least he has some form of treatment. But no cure THEN and no cure NOW, but maybe a cure in the very near future. But then, that's just my opinion. So now the big question. Will Neville's Mimblus Mimbletonia turn out to cure his parent, cure wereworlves, both, or neither? bboy_mn From saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk Thu Aug 21 23:24:01 2003 From: saraandra at whsmithnet.co.uk (amanitamuscaria1) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:24:01 -0000 Subject: SOCKS and other presents Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78327 From: "bluesqueak" Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:56 pm Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised Does anyone else on list find the moment when Ron chucks his mother's hand-knitted sweater at Dobby for a Christmas present (GoF) *supremely* ungrateful? *SNIP* Dobby hand knits socks for Harry - showing that he has genuine affection for Harry. Pip!Squeak [who will now wander off rather sheepishly] Now Me (AmanitaMuscaria) Agreed the disturbing lack of thought in that scene - Ron throwing Dobby the jumper from his mother, but also previous to that, Harry fishing out a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks to give Dobby, because he hadn't thought to get Dobby a present.. I'm sure it's been brought up before, but in the light of the 'protection', is that the reason the Dursleys(read Petunia here?) send Harry _something_, whether it's a coathanger, 50p, or a tissue, as a present? Is the 'present' a reinforcement of the protection in some way? Chweers. AmanitaMuscaria From Zarleycat at aol.com Thu Aug 21 23:00:59 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:00:59 -0000 Subject: 13 to a table defense - Ginny was the first to rise In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78328 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mark" wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "drago9nine" > > > >...right before Sirius stands up, I believe > > > we see Ginny sitting on the floor playing with Crookshanks. > > Doesn't > > > that mean she had to have gotten up from the table before Sirius > > > stands? > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" > wrote in reply: > > Good catch - pg. 87 US edition "Ginny, who had lured Crookshanks > out > > from under the dresser, was sitting cross-legged on the floor..." > > > > This is right before the argument about what Harry should be told > > regarding the Order. > > If I understand this argument, it's that Ginny must have gotten up > from the table in order to sit on the floor with Crookshanks? I > don't buy that because we don't know when Molly sits down (during > dinner she was serving, it would seem). I'm not sure what it is you're not buying - that Ginny had to have gotten up from the table or that she was not necessarily the first one to get up because we don't know exactly when Molly sat down. > The question in my mind is "is sitting on the floor sitting "at" the > table"? I would say not, not even if she simply slithered off her chair onto the floor under the table. If she is sitting on the floor, she is no longer sitting at the table. If not, then Sirius's standing up didn't really mean > anything (it could have been a red herring). Or something JKR completely overlooked. > If it is, it would explain the strange exchange where when Sirius > stands up, Someone tells him sharply to sit down, and then molly was > trembling and Sirius was "White". Why was Molly trembling? Was she > truly afraid of Sirius? I see no other evidence. > Now Whiteness is normally a reaction from fear - he was angry before > (red face), was he fearful because he lost his temper or because he > broke a taboo? > > Mark Sirius "started to rise from his chair" right after Molly, "her lip curling," makes her Azkaban comment. Lupin tells Sirius to sit down and he sinks slowly back into his chair, face white. Molly wasn't trembling. Her lip was trembling. I think she was angry at Sirius because he was pushing to tell Harry things, she was upset because none of the other adults jumped in to back her up, and she was also in high gear to prove that Harry was really almost her own son and that Sirius had no right to make any sort of judgements regarding Harry's welfare. I saw no evidence of Sirius being red-faced in that scene. Later on in the book, when the Weasleys show up the night Arthur is attacked, one of the twins snaps at Sirius about how he's not out there risking his life, and Sirius again pales. He's also clearly very annoyed, if not downright angry at that comment. I think JKR's standard description of an angry Sirius as being pale or white. Marianne From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Thu Aug 21 23:36:45 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:36:45 -0500 Subject: Telling Names (Was: RE: Lupins name. Just a silly thought.) In-Reply-To: <00b101c36760$97b18220$49f3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78329 Finchen Said : >>> I just think it's a telling name (stylistic feature of literature). BTW who would name their son "the white" (=Albus) or something that has to do with Lucifer (=Lucous) or dragon (=Draco, it's Latin!). Maybe it was just some kind of a weird kind of taste for Lupin was of course the childs last name... BTW JKR uses some funny last names (Dumbledore = bumblebee in old English).<<< Lady Macbeth: I agree that a lot of the names are probably "telling" names, but I'd make a small correction to your post. "Lucius" is a common Roman name, and was in fact the name of several prestigious Roman figures, including emperors. It's derived from the Latin "lux", which means "light". "Lucifer" is derived from "lux ferros", or "fire light". By the same token, many of her last names appear in the same manner. Just as "Lupin" refers to the wolf aspect of Remus as much as his first name does, there may very well be more to be learned about other characters by their last names. It's pretty common knowledge that "Malfoy" is derived from "mal foi", or "bad faith", but to whom does the bad faith apply? -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com Thu Aug 21 23:41:34 2003 From: LadyMacbeth at SexMagnet.com (Lady Macbeth) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:41:34 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Possible silly question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78330 Dark Lady Said: >>> Lupin, in discussing his lycanthropy, says that "they didn't have a cure BACK THEN." (Emphasis obviously my own. ) Would that not imply that there is a cure NOW? If so - why has not Lupin been cured? Is it perhaps like a rabies cure - that is only effective if started before the disease takes hold? When was the cure discovered? Obviously fairly recently. ( At least within Lupin's lifetime.) Would this explain why the Wolfsbane Potion is currently rare? (Because few new werewolves are created - so few would need it. ) What effect would this have on current werewolves? On the laws re: werewolf bites? ( Which - while still dire - would be less terrible if they did not also pass on the curse.)<<< Lady Macbeth: Owing mainly to the fact that the wizard who was in the bites ward with Arthur wasn't expecting a cure, I am inclined to think that Lupin made the same faux pas that many people make - he used the word "cure" when he wanted to indicate "treatment". Just like treatments for cancer, diabetes or other permanent diseases may alleviate the illness, the Wolfsbane Potion alleviates some of the worst effects of the transformation - however, it is in no way "cured". -Lady Macbeth [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eberte at vaeye.com Thu Aug 21 23:51:26 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:51:26 -0000 Subject: Can the Cruciatus Curse kill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78331 Wanda wrote: > We know that if it's used enough, the Cruciatus Curse can drive > someone insane (the Longbottoms). Can it possibly kill someone, or > can that only be done by the AK? Me: Good question. While it is not explicitly stated in canon, my initial response was *No* as we have an example (actually two examples), in the Longbottoms, of what happens when the curse is used in the extreme. But....on further reflection, it is *not* unreasonable to assume that someone can be tortured to death. Harry is certainly worried that LV is going to *kill* Sirius after he sees the vision of Voldemort torturing Sirius with the Cruciatus curse. Sirius's death could occur in one of two ways: 1. Sirius dies due to the repetitive use of the Cruciatus curse (assuming that this is a possibility) or 2. LV gets tired of Sirius's defiance and finishes him off with a well-placed AK curse (less likely, I think. Voldemort is a patient guy.) It appears that torture by the Cruciatus curse differs from RW torture in that the victim is not left with any physical marks/injuries. It is possible that the Cruciatus curse causes the neurologic perception of pain rather than actual physical injury to the end organ (i.e. like an electrode stimulating a pain fiber versus actual sharp or blunt trauma to the body part served by that pain fiber.) Even if that is the case, it would be possible for the Cruciatus curse to kill by causing a fatal cardiac event (such as an arrhythmia or heart attack.) Elle (apologizing for the "double post" of earlier this afternoon and assuring all that she has already ironed her own hands) From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 00:37:15 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:37:15 -0000 Subject: Generational Parallels - who is Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78332 Based on the tiny hint we saw about Lily in OoP who do you think of the current generation most fits her character? It needs to be someone who isn't afraid to stand up for themselves or others but who also obviously has a sense of humour and someone who has a strong sense of right and wrong. The two obvious female candidates to me are Ginny or Hermoine. LPD From sephora063 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 23:56:22 2003 From: sephora063 at yahoo.com (sephora063) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 23:56:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: <20030821185609.32356.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78333 "Doriane" wrote: To paraphrase: Hope would be the worst feeling people can feel, because it keeps them fighting against him, no matter how powerful he gets. Hi, I thought your post was great and very insightful. Somehow, I like this theory better than the love theory, but they are related. Interesting enough, Chapter 13 of Corinthians I is the Love Chapter. I think everyone has a pretty good idea of what it says. It lists the many qualities of love. However, I think the final verse says: And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. I have no idea what JKR intends, but I do enjoy that there are many possibilities. I think that it might be related to these three qualities. One way that I can think that love can be awful is when the love is unrequited. When love goes bad, all hell breaks loose. Seriously. I guess this could bring up the question of whether there is such a thing as good love or bad love. Love is an emotion, but it can bring about good or bad actions. Perhaps we must diferentiate between christian love (as in the Biblical text) and secular love. Another possibility, though I don't think this is it: what if what's in the room is humanity? I can think of no thing that is both wonderful and awful. Human compassion is a great thing as we have seen so far in HP, but at this moment we also know that humanity (as a species) can bring about much destruction. to quote Walter Benjamin: There is no document of civilization which is not at the same time a document of barbarism. I haven't thought it completely out (sorry, so tired...), but maybe this thing (another thing) that Voldemort lacks is humanity. He's not human anymore or is he? Or is it just mortal? Very much enjoying the posts. -Sephora From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 01:16:46 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:16:46 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Who is Dumbledore? References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78334 Susan: I did search posts but couldn't find this.....If Dumbledore knows everything that is going on then how did he not know there were three unregistered animagi running around Hogwart? Why did he not know that Moody was not Moody? Why did he need Veritaserum when he did discover Barty/Moody? Does he have selective knowledge the same way some people (especially kids) have selective hearing? It is very confusing to me to really get a sense of who Dumbledore is and what his intentions are when one minute he already knows what is going on and what is going to happen and the next minute he is clueless. He also knew of the DA but didn't know they called themselves "Dumbledore's Army"? Dan: Because he didn't know. Dumbledore does not know everything, though he does know a lot of what happens at the school. -Dan, who think Dumbledore is not all he's cracked-up to be [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 01:18:18 2003 From: ameliagoldfeesh at yahoo.com (ameliagoldfeesh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:18:18 -0000 Subject: Generational Parallels - who is Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78335 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > Based on the tiny hint we saw about Lily in OoP who do you think of > the current generation most fits her character? > > It needs to be someone who isn't afraid to stand up for themselves or > others but who also obviously has a sense of humour and someone who > has a strong sense of right and wrong. > > The two obvious female candidates to me are Ginny or Hermoine. > > LPD A Goldfeesh asks: Why couldn't it be Neville? After all Dicentra pointed out that these aren't strict parallels and Neville seems to fit all your criteria. 1- He stood up to the Trio in PS and he took on Crabbe and Goyle in PS also. 2-He has a sense of humor as he was able to laugh along when he was turned into a canary by Fred and George. 3-I believe he has a strong sense of right and wrong due to the attack on his parents. I find him similiar to Lily in another point. Both were willing to stand up to Housemates and say "You are doing wrong." Lily did this when James and Sirius were bullying Snape and Neville when he caught the Trio sneaking out of the dorm. A Goldfeesh (who, when she went to find the original Generational Parallels TBAY post couldn't find it. Hopes that perhaps this is due to the formatting getting fixed?) From gaspode2002 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 14:32:31 2003 From: gaspode2002 at yahoo.com (gaspode2002) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:32:31 -0000 Subject: Possible silly question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Darklady" wrote: > (Spoiler here - but not for anything recent ) > > Lupin, in discussing his lycanthropy, says that "they didn't have a > cure BACK THEN." (Emphasis obviously my own. ) Would that > not imply that there is a cure NOW? If so - why has not Lupin > been cured? Is it perhaps like a rabies cure - that is only effective > if started before the disease takes hold? When was the cure > discovered? Obviously fairly recently. ( At least within Lupin's > lifetime.) Would this explain why the Wolfsbane Potion is > currently rare? (Because few new werewolves are created - so > few would need it. ) What effect would this have on current > werewolves? On the laws re: werewolf bites? ( Which - while still > dire - would be less terrible if they did not also pass on the > curse.) > > Is this something strange re the Potterverse - or an I > misunderstanding? Every fan-fic seems to treat lycanthropy as > an ongoing risk, but? Just curious. As I understand the wolfsbane potion isn't a real cure. It is just a way to control the condition to an extent. As far as I can tell Lupin still turns into a wolf , but isn't as violent and bloodthirsty as he would be otherwise. Gaspode (named for the famous Gaspode). From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 22 02:01:44 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:01:44 -0000 Subject: FILK: Occlumency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78337 Occlumency To the tune of "Under the Sea" from Disney's "The Little Mermaid" SCENE: Harry and Snape reggae their way through their Occlumency lessons. SNAPE: To learn to rule your emotions, You must have an iron will. I may be master of potions, But that's not my only skill. I'll give you my expert instructions, Despite my life-long disdain, On how to put up obstructions In what passes for your brain. Occlumency! Occlumency! Potter, you moron, there is a war on, Listen to me! If you don't learn, one day you'll find There's a Dark Lord reading your mind. Control you need if you're to succeed at Occlumency! HARRY I'm stuck with Snape as my mentor, Though really it must be said I'd rather hug a Dementor Then let him inside my head. I'm only here under orders To learn the skill that I lack To bolster my mental borders Against Voldemort?s attack Wo-no, Occlumency! Occlumency! It?s such a chore, I?m down on the floor on My hands and knees. SNAPE Dark Lord, he want inside your head, Occlumency will stop him dead HARRY (SNAPE) Still, I?m confessin? I hate these lessons In Occlumency (Occlumency). Occlumency! (Occlumency!) It is so stiflin? to have Snape riflin? In my memory (your memory-ee-ee-ee). Snapey, he be inside my head, Maybe he see I?m not my Dad. Can we stop the hate or is it to late for Occlumency? *After Snape is called away by Draco, Harry gives in to temptation and peeks into the pensieve.* HARRY See James playing games With Black at his back. Such berks, watch them smirk As Snape they attack. And Pete thinks it?s neat! They all just apall! And Remus don?t seem to care. (Why?) Who?s there, with red hair? Oh, crumb! That?s my mum! Dumb squirt try to flirt, And she kick his bum! She sure gave him hell, That auburn-haired gal, And all I could do is stare. *Snape drags Harry out of the Pensieve and chases him out.* SNAPE No Occlumency! Occlumency! Touching my pensieve will prove expensive, As you will see. HARRY I went and saw what I shouldn?t see. Snapey, he throw roaches at me I saw his pants, now I won?t advance In Occlumency. He boot my ass right out of his class In Occlumency. I should feel bad for making him mad, But I don?t care, ?cos he?s out of my hair. SNAPE Get outta my face, you?re a disgrace at Occlumency! Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Thu Aug 21 16:36:54 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 16:36:54 -0000 Subject: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed??? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78338 --- In "scooting2win" wrote: > --- "Hagrid" > wrote: > > --- "James Redmont" wrote: > > > I don't know about you guys, but when I was reading OP, I kept > > > thinking that the reason Umbridge hates half-breeds so much is > > > because she *is* one. Canon to back it up? She looks very odd > > > (toad-like, short, stubby fingers, just weird-looking in > > > general), then there's the extreme hate of half-breeds > > > > Half-breed? or what about " ... the Animagus transformation can > > go horribly wrong -- one reason the Ministry keeps a close watch > > on those attempting to do it." (PoA - Chap 18)? > > you think she was trying to turn into a frog?! that's just sick! > Lori You don't try to turn into a specific animal, just like you don't choose your patronis. Whatever qualities are in you express themselves into the animal that you get as a patronis or animagus. We could ask Trevor, Neville's toad, what he thinks of Umbridge ... but she may be ugly as a toad, too. From liliana at worldonline.nl Thu Aug 21 18:04:14 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 18:04:14 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78339 Talisman, hanging by her toes from the monitor, suggests: > Usually vampires (even double agent spy ones) don't show up in > photographs. Now me, about to throw a few specks of cold water: We know that Snape became a spy before Voldemort's downfall, so before Sirius was convicted to Azkaban for the murder of Harry's parents. From the moment Sirius came into Harry's life he never let on that he knew that Snape was a spy, in fact everything he said or did with regard to Snape is in contradiction with this (as well as the actions and stories of others, like Remus). So, IMO, Snape should not show in that picture, regardless of whether he is a vampire or not. At that time he was not a member of the Order in the same way as he is now. In fact, I should have become very suspicious if he had been in the picture as well. Laylalast (aka Lilian) From kkreinke at earthlink.net Thu Aug 21 19:42:21 2003 From: kkreinke at earthlink.net (Darklady) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 19:42:21 -0000 Subject: vaccine Re: Possible silly question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78340 Laura: > > I wonder if there's a vaccine kids can take to prevent the onset of > lycanthropy in later life. That would explain Lupin's "in those > days" remark, and if the guy in the hospital hadn't gotten the > vaccine, that would explain why there's no cure for him. I know that > a vaccine isn't a cure per se, but it's close. That's rather along the lines that I was thinking when I mentioned rabies. Yes - there is a vaccine to prevent rabies. NO you do not want to ask your doctor for it. It has a VERY high bad-side-effect ratio. Much like ( for those who follow the news) the anthrax vaccine given to soldiers a la Desert Storm et al. Much worse then malaria vaccine. (And trust me - that's rough stuff. ) Even so - rabies vaccine IS given to animal control officers ( sometimes ) Vets in wild animal practices ( almost always ) and other people who are 'at high risk'. So - maybe there is a potion or preventative of some sort - but it only is taken by Aurors and similar folks. People who know in advance that they are at 'bite risk'. So a civillian who was bitten would still have 'no cure' availlable. As the man DID go to St. Mungo's- and apparently stay there after immediate treatment for bleeding and such - I tend to think there has to be some sort of treatment out there nowadays. But - just speculating. It is interesting. From acpurplekitty at juno.com Thu Aug 21 19:51:50 2003 From: acpurplekitty at juno.com (acpurplekitty at juno.com) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:51:50 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: How was James Head Boy without being a Prefect? Message-ID: <20030821.145150.-610371.0.acpurplekitty@juno.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78341 I know I've seen an interview somewhere online wherein JKR stated that a person did not have to be a prefect to become Head Boy/Girl. It seems odd, though, that no one else is familiar with it, so is it a hoax? I'm not sure of the link. If anyone else is familiar with it and can find it, I'd be grateful. *~Aeryn~* From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 20:56:16 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 13:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Unforgiveable v. Illegal (Was: Re: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030821205616.79088.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78342 KathyK wrote: jsmgleaner: By the way, that makes me think: why "unforgivable"? Have people on this list parsed that word choice already? I mean, as opposed to "illegal," although I know that Fake!Moody uses that term in the GoF chapter as well. Shirley: I don't know why the "unforgivable" label, either, because "illegal" seems more appropriate to me. Unforgivable to whom? But maybe I'm just being obtuse. KathyK: Avada Kedavra: Three words, "Kill the spare." Cruciatus: Torturing people, sometimes to the point of insanity. Imperius: Removing someone's free will. To me, they're called unforgivable because they're three curses that give an individual much too much power over other people. To use them in the manner they're used in the books is, IMO, "Unforgivable." KathyK Eowynn: I agree with kathy on this. In POA Harry and Lupin are talking about the Dementors kiss and how it would be the fate of Sirius: POA ch12 pg247 US edition: " He deserves it..." "You think so? Do you really think anyone deserves that..." "Yes...for...for some things..." Some things are just hard to forgive people for, now i know that conversation didn't have anything to do with the "unforgivable" curses, but it demonstrates what i am trying to say. You see there are already illegal curses, charms, etc... So how do you define something that is worse than all of those? You deem it unforgivable, it shows the magnitude of these particular curses and evil they are. IMO they help to create a better picture of the turmoil that they cause. Eowynn Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 21:40:52 2003 From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (Anna) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:40:52 -0000 Subject: Lupin as next Headmaster In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78343 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sachmet96" wrote: > > First of all Lupin is one of my favourite characters but I think he > is too unfair and irresponsible to make a good headmaster. > He was prefect but didn't do anything to stop his friends tormenting Snape >Then during POA he didn't stop Harry and his > friend banging Snape's head against the ceiling of the tunnel. I am afraid I must disagree. While Lupin's inability to keep James and Sirius in check when he was 15 is not the height of responsibility, he is not 15 anymore. I imagine Lupin has matured a bit in the twenty or so intervening years. I do not think he shows favoritism either. Remember how he reprimanded Harry and Ron in PoA after he learns they have the Marauder's Map: "I don't want to hear explanations. I happen to know that this map was confiscated by Mr. Filch many years ago. Yes, I know it's a map. I don't want to know how it fell into your possession. I am, however, disappointed that you didn't hand it in. Particularly after what happened the last time a student left information about the castle lying around. And I can't let you have it back, Harry." ... "Don't expect me to cover up for you again, Harry. I cannot make you take Sirius Black seriously. But I would have thought what you have heard when the Dementors draw near you would have had more of an effect on you. Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, Harry. A poor way to repay them - gambling their sacrifice for a bag of magic tricks." From anschutz at chem.umn.edu Thu Aug 21 21:48:35 2003 From: anschutz at chem.umn.edu (Amy) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 21:48:35 -0000 Subject: Income of professors at Hogwarts? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78344 Does anyone have any idea whether working as a professor at Hogwarts would be considered a high or low income job? I'm intrigued by the idea that James and Lily could have been professors before their deaths, but I don't feel there's enough canon to support it yet. We know that the teachers are paid (since Lupin's DADA position was his first paid job in many years). I'm inclined to assume that teachers earn a relatively low income but I don't know anything about the income of professors at British/Scottish boarding schools. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts or input on this topic. (This is my first post and I hope this topic hasn't been discussed too much before. I did a search and couldn't find anything.) Amy:) From simoncrowe1667 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 21 22:15:15 2003 From: simoncrowe1667 at yahoo.com (Simon Crowe) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:15:15 -0000 Subject: The Sorting Hat Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78345 Greetings! I'm new to the list and have been lurking and soaking up info. Many excellent posts! I have several questions that I hope are not so old as to have already been answered many times over. The first, and subject of this post, regards the Sorting Hat and the ongoing pureblood vs. muggle-born/'mudblood' story. I know this could get very complex, so I suppose I'd like to stick strictly to this magic/non-magic question. It struck me that the Sorting Hat appears to determine a new student's suitability for a house based on attributes that to be acquired. Without delving too deeply into the nature vs. nurture debate, is it aware, for example, of whether a new student is muggle-born or pureblood? If it is aware of this, then given Salazar Slytherin's prejudice against muggle-borns, why would the Sorting Hat place one in Slytherin House where there seem to an abundance of muggle haters? Of course, I'm aware that Tom Riddle was muggle-born. But he was also the heir. Would the Sorting Hat place only haters of the muggle-born in Slytherin regardless of their heritage? If it did, wouldn't it be perpetuating an already undesirable situation? Or is it the case that Hagrid's right and the distinction merely codswallop? Is it true that there's no wizard or witch out there that isn't half-blood or less? I think this one's a bit of a poser. Any takers? Thanks in advance for your help! From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 22 00:20:08 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:20:08 -0000 Subject: Telling Names (Was: RE: Lupins name. Just a silly thought.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78346 --- "Lady Macbeth" wrote: (editted) > Finchen Said : (editted) > >>> BTW who would name their son "the white" (=Albus) or Lucifer > >>>(=Lucous) or dragon (=Draco, it's Latin!). > > Lady Macbeth: > I agree the names are probably "telling" names, but I'd make a > small correction to your post. "Lucius" is a common Roman name > > It's pretty common knowledge that "Malfoy" is derived from > "mal foi", or "bad faith", but to whom does the bad faith apply? > > -Lady Macbeth "Dragon" is a regal and good name in Chinese / Korean cultures. Dragons are considered as dangerous as the Ocean, a Wind, or a Mountain ... in other words, respect it and your village can live in harmony with a dragon as a neighbour. It is European folklore that feared and hunted Dragons, not Asian. (I Role Play Hagrid in another group , so I did my homework on Dragons, plus several other Magical Creatures) PS. Not everyone is complimented by being called a Dragon. Use sparingly ... lol. From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Fri Aug 22 00:50:56 2003 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:50:56 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hats Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78347 I was looking at the picture of Dobby wearing all of Hermione's Hats in the American version of OOTP, and a question occurred to me: how do the students' clothes at Hogwarts get cleaned? Wouldn't the house elves be picking them up and cleaning them all the time? (The same would have been true for Dobby when he was with the Malfoys.) The elves wouldn't be freed by doing this because their masters had not directly handed them the clothing. But then how are the hats and socks that Hermione is knitting and hiding around the Gryffindor common room supposed to free them, since once again the elves would only pick them up themselves? (Dobby said the elves were annoyed and would not clean the Gryffindor common room, but was it just because someone was trying to trick them? They weren't in any danger of being freed.) JKR has made Hermione very brilliant, as her analyses in OOTP repeatedly showed -- so wouldn't Hermione think of this simple point too? What am I missing? Robert Jones (aka Boris the Bewildered) From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 00:54:36 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:54:36 -0000 Subject: Beaters, Seeker All Are Banned / We Won (filks) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78348 These are filks of the songs "Piddle, Twiddle and Resolve" and "Till Then" titled "Beaters, Seeker All Are Banned" and "We Won", from the musical 1776. I dedicate these filks to Frankie, that Princess of Puzzle Solvers Beaters, Seeker All Are Banned / We Won SCENES: Angelina Johnson, captain of the Gryffindor Quidditch team now that Oliver Wood has graduated, reacts to the consequences of infamous Educational Decree Number Twenty-Five. / The aftermath of the last Quidditch match of the year. ANGELINA JOHNSON: I do believe she's cast a curse. That Umbridge is a whore! A curse that we now here rehearse at House of Gryffindor! Her new office as Inquisitor Is a thing we must abide. Loss of Divinations Teacher I suppose I'll take in stride. But, now she hurts our Quidditch. That must surely be defied! I say this with humility for House of Gryffindor! We're your responsibility, this House of Gryffindor! If you don't want to see our won-lost Record take a sharp nose dive, If you still want our chance to win the Quidditch Cup To stay alive, Then Godric, put a stop to That Decree Twenty-Five. You see, our Beaters, Seeker, all are banned. That foul witch had it all planned! Beaters, Seeker all are banned. No more Quidditch wins for Bashed, bludgeoned, bloodied, besmirched, besieged House of Gryffindor! Their family played for years and years for House of Gryffindor! These new Weasleys play upon my fears for House of Gryffindor! I can't decide on whether they can fly, Or if they're good or bad; I'm convinced The only Purpose that Decree ever had Was to make us lose specifically To drive A. Johnson mad! You see, our Beaters, Seeker all are banned, Two new Weasleys now on hand. Beaters, Seeker all are banned. No more Quidditch wins for Bashed, bludgeoned, bloodied, besmirched, besieged House of Gryffindor! GRYFFINDORS: Someone said Ron Weasley's now our Keeper! Good Godric! HERMIONE: Ron, Ron, is that you carrying on, Ron? Just play your Keeper position; don't let the Quaffle in. Don't worry when the Slytherins sing, "Weasley is our King." There are six other players playing: Angelina flies with you; Little Ginny is our Seeker; And Alicia is there too. Now Katie Bell's a Chaser-- RON WEASLEY: Hermione, what else is new? HERMIONE: There's one thing that I think you missed while Training how to play. RON: (sniggers) HERMIONE: Don't smirk at me, you nervous boy; pay Heed to what I say. You have the legacy of Charlie, Champion of Gryffindor. "The Twins were human Beaters." All of this you should ignore. If you just play like Ron Weasley I'm sure you'll love the score! RON WEASLEY (after the match): We won, We won I played as I never did and followed your advice; Yours, yours, yours, yours, yours. HERMIONE: You did it, Ron. RON WEASLEY: Yeah, Hermione. GRYFINDORS: Yes, Weasley is our King! -Haggridd From sneewittchen at hoffnar.com Fri Aug 22 01:06:45 2003 From: sneewittchen at hoffnar.com (ekristah) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:06:45 -0000 Subject: Lily's Wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78349 LPD just mae a post about Lily that made me think of something I wanted to bring up regarding her wand. I can't get out of my head what Mr. Ollivander said to Harry about Lily's wand. He recalled which wand she purchased: "Ten and a quarter inches long, swishy, made of willow. Nice wand for charm work." Charm work. Ollivander stressed that it's the wand that chooses the wizard. I wonder if Rowling isn't revealing something about Lily's "specialty." Could it have been charms? Dumbledore later spoke of the love that protected Harry. Perhaps it was more than her love that did this. -EKH From sues0101 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 01:09:27 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:09:27 +0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual preference Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78350 bboy wrote: > >Those who post opinions with leaning in > >that direction add perspective and counterpoint... and well, of > >course, a significant amount of personal fantasy, but fantasy is fun. > > > >You don't have to agree, and you obviously don't; to that I say > >'Excellent'. It's always good to have a counter-perspective and a > >counter-counterpoint. > > > >Mainly, to all, lighten up. Like I said, I took the original statement > >that trigger this run of posts as being much more lighthearted and > >insignificant to the point the poster was making than some of you > >appear to have taken it. > > > >Of course, that just a thought. > > > >bboy_mn > > Sue: Of course people should lighten up, especially as we aren't talking world peace here. Personally, I think differing opinions are terrific. As long as people who disagree with an opinion only disagree with the opinion and don't start attacking the person things will stay civilised. The poster who added that he/she was a Christian and thinks homosexuality is evil is quite entitled to that opinion but that doesn't make those of us who disagree evil, and we shouldn't be made to feel that we are. I personally don't think that JK will have any gay characters in her book - not a main character anyway. At the risk of throwing the cat among the pidgeons here, *evil grin*, I have to reply to the poster who said that Harry had never ever indicated that there might be a boy he was interested in, and disagree. In GoF, Harry meets Bill for the first time (p. 50) and is surprised by his appearance. "Bill was, there was no other word for it - cool." Harry has never thought this about another wizard hehe. There are a couple of mentions about Bill in the OoTP too, which were added that didn't need to be there, that shows Harry was at least thinking about Bill. I'll have to go find them again. There was one about some wizard's hair being as long as Bill's, or longer, and something else I can't remember exactly what, but something. I know mention was also made on OoTP that Bill was giving Fleur 'private lessons' in English just after Harry asked if Bill was at headquarters (p.67). I was reading the post (about Harry not showing any indication of being interested in another boy)about the same time I started re-reading OoTP (for about the sixth time) that triggered this thought. I'll check it out and send later. I'll go now and hunt up some more clues for my evil plan. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage comes with McAfee Virus Scanning - to keep your Hotmail account and PC safe. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 01:59:36 2003 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:59:36 -0000 Subject: Who is Dumbledore? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: > Susan: If Dumbledore knows > everything that is going on then how did he not know there were three > unregistered animagi running around Hogwart? Why did he not know > that Moody was not Moody? Why did he need Veritaserum when he did > discover Barty/Moody? Does he have selective knowledge the same way > some people (especially kids) have selective hearing? It is very > confusing to me to really get a sense of who Dumbledore is and what > his intentions are when one minute he already knows what is going on > and what is going to happen and the next minute he is clueless. He > also knew of the DA but didn't know they called > themselves "Dumbledore's Army"? -=-=-=-=---=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==- I think he knew about the three unregistered animagi. But as he was harboring a werewolf anyway, why turn in his friends? Dumbledore in olde English means bumblebee. Remember the wasp Harry heard buzzing around during one of his OWLS? (Was it astronomy?) Also, remember when Dumbledore tells Harry that he doesn't need an invisiblity cloak to be invisible? (Disillusionment charm, perhaps?) I think Dumbledore isn't omnipresent, but he's definitely around. He's sees more than he's seen. I wouldn't be surprised if he has a time turner or something like it, (his watch with the planets?) at his disposal. He usually knows how things are going to turn out, so doesn't panic in the middle of an emergency. WhizBang From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 00:05:35 2003 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 00:05:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: <20030821185609.32356.qmail@web21002.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78352 > "Doriane" wrote: snip> > > > > > OoP, chapter 37 : > > > > > > 'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries > > that is kept locked > > > at all times. It contains a force that is at once > > more wonderful and more terrible than death, than human > > intelligence, than the forces of nature. It is also, perhaps, > > the most mysterious > > of the many > > subjects > > > for study that reside there. It is the power held > > within that room > > > that you possess in such quantities and which > > Voldemort has not at > > > all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. > > That power also > > > saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he > > could not bear > > to > > > reside in a body so full of the force he detests. > > In the end, it > > > mattered not that you could not close your mind. > > It was your heart > > > that saved you.' > > > > > > Can you see how the word "love", or anything else > > for that matter, > > is > > > not mentioned a single time ? > ?Moreover,Hope is the worst > > > enemy of any tyrant : as long as people keep > > hoping that things can get better, they can't be crushed. They can be > > isolated, tortured, > > or > > > whatever, as long as they have hope, they keep > > fighting. So for > > > someone like Voldemort, Hope would be the worst > > feeling people can > > > feel, because it keeps them fighting against him, > > no matter how > > > powerful he gets. > > > > > > So what do you think ? Am I completely off-track > > or what ? Shoot > > > away ! Hmmm... That's really well written and full of hope itself. And hope is a powerful quality. It fits in with JKR's tendency to weave elements of myth into the series. The story of how hope was released into the world after all the ills is seems like her style. But maybe Harry himself could be thought of as the hope of the magical world. I'm not sure it's an emotion, either. I think that like the Patronus and the Ridikkulus among others, it requires an emotional response. Remember when Uncle Vernon was throttling Harry in the first chapter. Suddenly a force rose through Harry that made him impossible to hold on to. There are other examples. In the "tell all" speech, Dumbledore made repeated references to Harry's bravery. Courage can be another term for "heart". Harry has extraordinary courage. He's not even afraid to die. But Voldemort is. Voldemort is so terrified of death that he has gone to incredible legnths to prevent it. In chapter 36, (page 814 am ed) "There is nothing worse than death, Dumbledore," snarled Voldemort. "You are quite wrong," said Dumbledore ... "Indeed, your failure to understand that there are things much worse than death has always been your greatest weakness-" I don't think the "power" in Harry is an emotion, but I think it is triggered by emotions. And I think what Harry has that Voldemort doesn't is courage. And he was willing to die when Voldemort possessed him. But it wasn't until he experienced a powerful emotion that Voldemort, unable to bear the rush of power, fled. Not unlike when Uncle Vernon couldn't hold on to him. What is this power triggered by emotion? From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 02:42:10 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:42:10 -0000 Subject: the Javert/Lucifer hypothesis In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78353 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: > Chris' sig (quote from "Les Miserables") reminded me of a discussion over on > the excellent Harry Potter Prognostications blog, regarding the OoP prophecy > and possible outcomes of that. One of the feedbacks proposed that perhaps > the big climax will involve HP forgiving LV somehow -- but the proposer of the > theory then did not say how that was going to play out in the end. (I don't see > LV repenting -- he's not Darth Vader, as far as I can tell.) > > However, it occurred to me that something like the Javert/Valjean climax > possibly could happen. For those unfamiliar w/the tale, Javert is a self- > righteous law enforcer -- really the villain of the piece -- who pursues the > supposed criminal Valjean throughout their lives. (Valjean has really done > nothing worse than commit petty theft in order to survive, early in the book. > Javert's dogged pursuit is a constant threat that keeps Valjean from enjoying > any kind of peace/joy with his ward, Cosette.) Javert ultimately tracks Valjean > down, but it occurs in a situation where Valjean has physical power over him > and could easily kill him for making his life a living hell. Javert fully expects > this. Valjean, in an act of incredible human mercy, tells Javert that he isn't > going to kill him and that he should just leave. Javert's rigid, "I'm good he's > bad" world view is so rocked by this act of mercy on the part of a person whom > he's pursued as a heinous criminal for decades that he commits suicide. > > So let's propose that somehow -- HOW remains to be seen -- the end of the > series involves LV screwing up, being betrayed, or otherwise being delivered, > disarmed, into the hands of Harry, the OoP, and DA. Suppose Harry, knowing > full well that the prophecy says he must kill or be killed, decides not to kill LV - > - decides that no prophecy is going to turn him into a murderer, even if he > ultimately has to die himself. Suppose he's so sick of all the killing he's seen > that he lowers his the wand and says, "no more." Now, suppose LV is so > incensed by his humiliating defeat and this act of mercy that he prefers to > annihilate himself rather than live in Harry's debt, under any sort of > containment/subjection scheme designed for his rehabilitation. (Sort of like > the Lucifer thing from Milton -- better a prince in hell than a servant in > heaven....) LV gets his hands on a wand -- maybe he's even grabbing Harry's > wand hand -- and offs himself. > > Result -- LV dead due to Harry's actions (figuratively, and possibly even > literally, "at the hand of" Harry). Love as the force that causes LV's downfall. > Harry not dead but surviving, due to his moral choices. Happy ending. > > It's a far-fetched scenario, I grant you. it would have to be written so carefully, > too -- and it might not be possible to write it at all, in a way that did not appear > sickeningly trite. But it would satisfy the prophecy, leave Harry alive at the end > of the series, and confirm the power of choice over fate and of love over evil. It > seems to me it would be consistent with the themes JKR has been pushing. > (And we do know she's ... uhhh ... familiar with French literature.) > > OK, I know I'm nuts. Fire away .... :-) > > urghiggi, chicago Mlle Bienvenu: No, you're not nuts at all! I've been writing a story with a similar ending (basically your theory with a third party involved, but I digress...) I've always loved this theory as I like how it would show Harry's character growth. It's all well and good to 'love thy neighbor' but 'Love thine enemy' is so much more difficult. We've been building toward the classic showdown of good and evil, for Harry to turn around and spare Voldemort as he spared Wormtail... that, to me, would be the ultimate heroic act and would, for me be a deeply satisfying ending. Also, I like your ending because it would work so well with the concept of a magical life-debt. Not only would Voldemort, as you say, be humiliated by his defeat. But he'd actually be indebted to Harry. I wonder if his killing himself would sort of be a way to fulfil that debt. (Are life-debts something that absolutely must be honored or are they a matter of chivalry?) The only snag I see is LV's fear of death. I'm not sure if LV is proud enough to die just out of humiliation. I think his fear of death is deeper than his pride. But according to the rules of your theory he doesn't neccesarily have to die to be defeated (it would still fulfil the prophecy) He could loose his powers and have to live like a muggle (poetic justice... gotta love it.) Or wind up in St. Mungo's or something... Anyway, I like your theory, very catchy that... Mlle Myriel Bienvenu (after Monseigneur Charles Myriel Bienvenu AKA The Bishop of Digne - Les Mis?rables It's hard to tell in the musical, but he's a really cool guy in the book ^_^) From c4bchief at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 02:44:28 2003 From: c4bchief at yahoo.com (Joe) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:44:28 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78354 But then how are the hats and socks that Hermione is knitting and hiding around the Gryffindor > common room supposed to free them, since once again the elves would > only pick them up themselves? (Dobby said the elves were annoyed > and would not clean the Gryffindor common room, but was it just > because someone was trying to trick them? They weren't in any > danger of being freed.) JKR has made Hermione very brilliant, as > her analyses in OOTP repeatedly showed -- so wouldn't Hermione think > of this simple point too? What am I missing? > > Robert Jones (aka Boris the Bewildered) This puzzled me at first. The best solution I came up with was that the hats and socks where GIFTS entitled to be given to the house elves. So that is what would set them free. The rest of the clothing for the students/teachers where simply that, property of the masters. So handling it wouldn't set them free. Only when given as a gift would it do so. So basically, Hermione was hiding gifts around the room hoping to trick the Elves. The only question I still have on the topic, is if Hermione had the power anyhow. Being that the gift would have to come from the Elves master, and although I'm sure the elves listen and respect the students, I'm not certain if a student would qualify as its master. Being that Dumbledore is Headmaster and the one who hired Dobby. Hope some of that helps, still curious on my question though.. Joe From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 02:56:08 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 02:56:08 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78355 Sachmet wrote: >First of all Lupin is one of my favourite characters but I think he >is too unfair and irresponsible to make a good headmaster. Maria Alena: Hi, Some thoughts on Remus Lupin here. BTW, to save myself some flames, I'll go ahead to say that I adore him and want to cook him three- course dinners... Margaret replied to Sachmet: > I have to step in and say a few things here. I adore Remus Lupin, > and think calling him unfair or irresponsible is comepletly unfair. I, uh, disagree. I'm going to argue against the unfairness claim, but for the irresponsibility claim here. You're going to wish that he were unfair rather than live with the shocking revelation of what he really is, though. Consider yourself warned. :-) > He is not irresponsible for forgetting his potion on that > particular night. How would you react in his position. Yes, Lupin is understandably disconcerted and stressed by the sudden exposure of the true events of November 1st, 1981. But, consider: `"NO!" Hermione screamed. "Harry, don't trust him, he's been helping Black get into the castle, he wants you dead too - *he's a werewolf!"' (Ch 17 POA) The phrase is followed by a long discussion of Lupin's ailment. In the next chapter, Lupin in great detail, and *quite calmly*, describes MWPP's full-moon romps in the Forbidden Forest and on Hogwarts grounds and the Prank. Also, he mentions Wolfsbane Potion. Right after that, entre Snape and says: `"I've been to your office, Lupin. You forgot to take your potion tonight, so I took a gobletful along."' (Ch 19 POA) OK, so all they do for at least a half an hour is discuss Lupin's lycanthropy. And not once, *not even once* did Lupin remember that that night ? big surprise ? was full moon and that it might be a good idea to run along to the castle and have a drink of that nice tasty potion. It has been suggested that Lupin is in denial about his illness. Whether it's true or not, he certainly acts irresponsibly in the Shrieking Shack. Sachmet wrote: >And he is unfair and unjust to people he doesn't like or who his >friends don't like He was prefect >but didn't do anything to stop his friends tormenting Snape Nah, that's not unfairness. That's cowardice, nothing more, and nothing less. I think that part of the Second Pensieve Scene's (we SO need another name for it) function is to underline this particular aspect of Lupin's character, in case any of us missed it in POA . BTW, Ron The Prefect's situation with the twins also serves to emphasize this. (Don't feel that you have to like Lupin less because of his cowardice, though. To me, this trait is actually endearing. It makes him astonishingly human in my eyes, even though there's absolutely no self-identification in this scene for me at all. Anyway, the Hurt- Comfort reaction was really kicking in. Apart from wanting to hug Remus and test him in Transfiguration, I felt an acute desire to strangle Sirius. It may be just me, though.) Aside - was JKR taking a risk in giving Lupin such an unappealing negative trait? There's no questioning the fact that cowardice is less likeable than hot-headedness, recklessness and a tendency to show off. It certainly increased *my* affection for Lupin, but how about other readers? Margaret continued: > Hogwarts was the first place Remus ever had friends > (being a werewolf and all) he wasn't likely to risk losing them by > criticizing them too much. (which is not nessecarily weakness of > character but teenage human nature) Well, in his case, it turned out to be a weakness of character, since he chose not to risk losing Dumbledore in POA by telling him about the MWPP Romps. > Remus seems like the best > candidate for prefect in Gryffindor. It's possible. > As for not stopping Black from letting Snape's head scrape the > ceiling in the tunnel to the Whomping Willow, He was a > bit busy at the moment. Heh. I think that Lupin didn't stop Sirius because, had he been the one levitating Snape, he would have done the same, and for the exact same reason ? a petty, childish wish for revenge. Maria Alena, happy to see that 15-year-old Lupin had Edge as well: "Loved it," said Lupin briskly. "Give five signs that identify the werewolf. Excellent question." (OOP, Snape's Worst Memory) From jesmck at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 03:11:55 2003 From: jesmck at yahoo.com (jesmck) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:11:55 -0000 Subject: SOCKS and other presents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "amanitamuscaria1" wrote: > From: "bluesqueak" > Date: Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:56 pm > Subject: SOCKS: Was: Re: What Dumbledore saw in the Mirror of Erised > > Does anyone else on list find the moment when Ron chucks his > mother's hand-knitted sweater at Dobby for a Christmas present (GoF) > *supremely* ungrateful? > *SNIP* > Dobby hand knits > socks for Harry - showing that he has genuine affection for Harry. > Pip!Squeak > [who will now wander off rather sheepishly] > > Now Me (AmanitaMuscaria) > Agreed the disturbing lack of thought in that scene - Ron throwing > Dobby the jumper from his mother, but also previous to that, Harry > fishing out a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks to give Dobby, because > he hadn't thought to get Dobby a present.. and now me (Jessica) If Harry gave Dobby socks and Ron gave him a jumper, wouldn't Dobby be free? And, if the reason these gifts didn't free him is because Harry and Ron aren't his master, then why is Hermione making all of those hats for the other house elves? From molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 03:14:33 2003 From: molly_weasley_wannabe at yahoo.com (Kathryn Wolber) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 20:14:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hermione's Hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030822031433.37723.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78357 --- Robert Jones wrote: > I was looking at the picture of Dobby wearing all of > Hermione's Hats > in the American version of OOTP, and a question > occurred to me: how > do the students' clothes at Hogwarts get cleaned? > Wouldn't the > house elves be picking them up and cleaning them all > the time? (The > same would have been true for Dobby when he was with > the Malfoys.) > The elves wouldn't be freed by doing this because > their masters had > not directly handed them the clothing. But then how > are the hats > and socks that Hermione is knitting and hiding > around the Gryffindor > common room supposed to free them, since once again > the elves would > only pick them up themselves? JKR has made Hermione very > brilliant, as > her analyses in OOTP repeatedly showed -- so > wouldn't Hermione think > of this simple point too? What am I missing? I think that's just Hermione being overly ambitious and not thinking things through. In addition to the fact that the elves are just picking up the hats, not being given them, Hermione is not their master. She can hand them as many socks or hats as she wants but it doesn't matter. On pg 380 US PB of GoF Dobby says "We upholds the family's honor, and we never speak ill of them --though Professor Dumbledore told Dobby he does not insist on this....He said we is free to call him a barmy old codger if we likes, sir!" So obviously Dumbledore is his master and Hermione has no control over the school elves' freedom. My guess about laundry is that they just pick it up and masters make sure they don't hand it to the elves. Or, maybe when doing laundry the elves know it's not meant as dismissal. Like how Kreacher decided that Sirius telling him to get out meant for him to leave the house. When Crouch dismisses Winky he said "This means clothes." (GoF 138, US PB) So I would think that a loyal elf like Winky would know that if handed something while doing laundry it doesn't mean she's dismissed. Dobby and Kreacher (who I hate to name side by side)on the other hand were looking for any chance to get away. So Sirius' instruction to leave the kitchen, and Harry causing Malfoy to unknowingly give Dobby a sock were enough for them to leave. Just some thoughts, ~Kathryn, who begs forgiveness for not getting a page number for Kreacher leaving the house but has no interest in unpacking her college stuff to get the book out. ===== "Difference of habit and language are nothing at all if our aims are identical and our hearts are open.-Dumbledore,GoF "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live, remember that."-Dumbledore-SS Ron: "Well, I had one that I was playing Quidditch the other night...what d'you reckon that means? Harry:"Probably that you're going to be eaten by a giant marshmallow or something." __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From david_p at istop.com Fri Aug 22 03:43:14 2003 From: david_p at istop.com (david_p2002ca) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:43:14 -0000 Subject: SPEW how do you do ? (was Re: SOCKS and other presents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78358 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jesmck" wrote: > and now me (Jessica) > If Harry gave Dobby socks and Ron gave him a jumper, wouldn't Dobby > be free? And, if the reason these gifts didn't free him is because > Harry and Ron aren't his master, then why is Hermione making all of > those hats for the other house elves? By the time Harry and Ron gave Dobby those gifts he had already received his manumission (1) (or should that be elfumission?) Thus, providing clothes to Dobby had no effect - he was already free, working for money and even the occasional holiday! Hermione's targets were the elves who were still bound to Hogwarts - those who had not yet been freed. It does raise an interesting question, though: could a student free a house elf, or would it require a prefect, professor or even the headmaster - a person in authority at the school - to release a house elf? David P. (Whose current laundry pile could free all the elves at Hogwarts) (1) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=manumission From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 22 04:05:25 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:05:25 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78359 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > > I've been thinking about it right from the moment I read DD's > explanation of Harry's "special power" : > > OoP, chapter 37 : > > 'There is a room in the Department of Mysteries that is kept locked > at all times. It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and > more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of > nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects > for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room > that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at > all. > > > Del Could this possibly mean innocence? LV is definitely not an innocent in any way shape or form. Innocence can be very harmful especially when exploited. As we grow older and loose our innocence we soon start to forget the simple, finer things in life. Granted Harry has been in some fixes. But weren't they due to his being exploited by his elders? Just a thought. Susan From navarro198 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 04:23:48 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:23:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78360 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" wrote: > At the risk of throwing the cat among the pidgeons here, *evil > grin*, I have to reply to the poster who said that Harry had never ever > indicated > that there might be a boy he was interested in, and disagree. In GoF, > Harry meets Bill for the first time (p. 50) and is surprised by his > appearance. > "Bill was, there was no other word for it - cool." Harry has never > thought this about another wizard hehe. RB: As the one (or at least one of the ones - if you follow that ) who provoked part of this thread I'm going to risk poking my head out again! Assuming I'm the one you are quoting, what I originally wrote was: "I don't remember any particular description of a male student that would indicate Harry was interested." Not that he had "never, ever..." etc. Obviously, I hit a few nerves without intending to , and managed to provoke a - what was it Sergeant Majorette called it? - lovely rousing cyber barfight. Good description. That said, I read this description of Bill as Harry's first meeting with adult wizards (wasn't Charlie there too?) who aren't authority figures. Here it is, pg 52, US, "Harry had always imagined Bill to be an older version of Percy: fussy about rule-breaking and fond of bossing everyone around. However, Bill was - there was no other word for it - cool." It was a realization that there are wizards who are young, modern, hip, with-it, whatever that latest synonym for "cool" is. From the description, Bill would be right at home at a trendy nightspot. I read it as admiration, not personal interest. But hey, to each his/her own... Ravenclaw Bookworm From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 04:50:12 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:50:12 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78361 Snipping the 99% of Talisman's post with which she has no argument, Annemehr notes that Talisman says of Snape: > Who else was there to deflect the dementors the first time through? The time-turned version of Harry was there, ever since 9:00, to deflect the dementors. This is so because later on (12:00 midnight), Hermione is going to use her time turner on them both. A neccessary result of time travel to the past is that an action you perform now (whatever it is that ennables time travel) is going to have an effect in the past, before the action was ever performed. The reason I believe JKR has written her time travel this way, where there is only one version of 9:00 to 12:00, is from reading about the time just after 9:00, when the "original" HRH (in invisibility cloak, about to leave for Hagrid's) and the "time-turned" HH (hiding in the broom cupboard off the entrance hall) each hear the other group's footsteps. So "original" HRH heard "timeturned" HH run through the entrance hall the "first" (and only) time through that moment. But you are probably tired of hearing this! Annemehr who is always ready to jump into the time-turner fray... who is aware of the many different types of time travel theories in literature, etc.... and who is muleheadedly sure of her interpretation! From two4menone4you88 at aol.com Fri Aug 22 05:05:45 2003 From: two4menone4you88 at aol.com (yairadubin) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:05:45 -0000 Subject: Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > Dear Grownups... > > So I want to know what you would say to me. Please leave ad hominum > arguments at home. I am well aware I could never write HP. But it > isn't my job to create HP. I am a reader and feel I have full right > to judge work I could never attempt to write. Afterall I paid for > OOTP. I deserve a good novel - the best one Rowling can write IMO. > > Thanks for all those who answer, > Golly Dearest Golly, I just wanted to meantion that no one forced you to buy Harry Potter. No one snatched the money out of your bank acount bought HP and rammed it down your throat. When you choose to buy a book the author owes you nothing. You bought the book based on its predecessors. Your bad! If you weren't pleased with it, well next time, wait and see if a book's your type before you buy it. However, I think you are grossly undermining HP. I think it has a lot more literary worth than you give it credit for. The portayal of Harry as an angst-driven team was simply brilliant. What your wrote about him being a "bratty teen" is absolute rubbish. Imagine if you had his life experiences. Would you not act in a similar fashion? Just wanted to mention all this. Cheers, *Yaira* From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 06:58:22 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:58:22 -0000 Subject: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Simon Crowe" wrote: I have several questions first, regards the Sorting Hat is it aware whether a new student is muggle-born or pureblood? why would [it] place one in Slytherin House Tom Riddle was muggle-born. But he was also the heir. Would the Sorting Hat place only haters of the muggle-born in Slytherin regardless of their heritage? If it did, wouldn't it be perpetuating an already undesirable situation? Or is it the case that Hagrid's right and the distinction merely codswallop? Is it true that there's no wizard or witch out there that isn't half-blood or less? Talisman, who thinks that, under all that grease, Snape's hair is wonderfully conditioned, responds: Debates about the Sorting Hat blossom and subside on this site, with the regularity of the seasons. I haven't followed a Sorting Hat thread lately, but there was a recent discussion, and you should find both new and old by searching for the topic. N.B. It's always a good idea to practice meditation while searching, just keep hitting , and you will find many posts. Eventually. Nonetheless: 1) Of course Hagrid's right. Hating a wizard for being muggle-born is nonsense. Muggle-borns aren't doing any damage to the magical community. As Hagrid points out in CoS, Hermione is the best in her class, while pure-blood Neville "can hardly stand a cauldron up the right way." (116) (I know, I know, Neville fans--he might be drugged/cowed by Grandma/stuck with Dad`s wand, etc. How about Crabbe and Goyle, then?) This hatred seems to stem from the days of medieval witch-hunting and so is parallel to the intolerance found on the Muggle side. 2) We are _not_ told that there are no purebloods anymore. Rather: "Most wizards are half-blood anyway. If we hadn't married Muggles we'd've died out." (CoS 116) Notice how Sirius was the last of Phineas Nigellus's direct line. Riddle is the last heir of Slytherin, and he's only around thanks(?) to the fact his mother married a muggle. Similarly, Harry is the last of the Potters, etc. Of course, intra-wizard wars have something to do with that. Grindelwald, Voldemort Phase I, Voldemort Phase II, etc. I think "Hagrid's Story" about the demise of the giant's race makes a nice cautionary tale on this point. 3) One of the reasons the Sorting Hat posts don't interest me, is that the distinctions are so obviously artificial. E.g.: Hermione is the smartest in her year and Riddle is called the brightest student Hogwarts has ever seen, but neither of them was sorted into Ravenclaw. On the other hand, the first Ravenclaw we have seen with an interesting mind is Luna--and the rest of the Ravenclaw reject her (as does Hermione) because she's intuitive rather than logical. No HufflePuff, not even Ernie McMillan, works harder than Hermione. Luna's a Ravenclaw, but she's more than brave enough to be a Gryffindor. We see her unhesitatingly put her life on the line to help Harry. And, of course, we know the Hat would have been happy to put Harry in Slytherin. If Dumbledore's not fibbing again, and the Hat wanted to put Harry in Slytherin because it smelled a little "curse dab" of Voldemort on him (though that's not among the reasons IT gives) then it can detect "blood." I tend to think it's more about who you think you are/want to be. This probably works out the same with regard to sorting Muggle- haters into Slytherin. 4) And yes, the whole sorting process perpetuates the problems wizard-kind is facing. The hatred now vitiating the magical world springs from the seedbeds of such artificial divisions. But the wizards, not the Hat, will have to sort that out. (Safe bet that "meddling" James and Lily were working for unity between magical creatures, and/or better magic/ Muggle relationships, before they got zapped.) Talisman, who sees that wasp is back, buzzing on the window, and is off to talk to it. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Fri Aug 22 02:20:19 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 22:20:19 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where is Snape???? References: <005901c3675c$3b708d70$49f3a986@caro> Message-ID: <3F457DE3.8040904@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78364 Carolin Mnkemeyer wrote: > > Rereading OoP I got caught by the scene Moody is showing a photograph of the > original Order at the "prefect party". He showed Harry everybody on it... > but there was no Snape! He was the one taking the picture. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 07:34:45 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:34:45 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <167.249de809.2c76881f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78365 Sherrie: >Oooh - here's a horrid. PETTIGREW KNOWS about Snape's spying... >Look out Sevvie!!!!!!!!! How would he know that? He knows that Snape hates Black, most of the DE probably do, knowing he is innocent and on Dumbledore's side. So what if Snape didn't help him escape? Black makes the point that Pettigrew wasn't just hiding from the Order, he was hiding from the DE because it was on his information Voldemort was (nearly) destroyed. As Scabbers he would know that Ron and Harry think Snape is evil. Please tell me if there is canon supporting Pettigrew having defenite proof Snape isn't spying on Dumbledore for Voldemort, I can't find my copy of PoA. ~Margaret, who genuinely likes Snape, even knowing he used to be a Death Eater From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 07:43:10 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:43:10 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hats In-Reply-To: <20030822031433.37723.qmail@web11607.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78366 Robert Jones: >>But then how are the hats and socks that Hermione is knitting and hiding around the Gryffindor common room supposed to free them, since once again the elves would only pick them up themselves? JKR has made Hermione very brilliant, as her analyses in OOTP repeatedly showed -- so wouldn't Hermione think of this simple point too? What am I missing?<< Kathryn: >I think that's just Hermione being overly ambitious and not thinking things through. In addition to the fact that the elves are just picking up the hats, not being given them, Hermione is not their master. She can hand them as many socks or hats as she wants but it doesn't matter. < KathyK: *waves to Kathryn before beginning* In GoF, HRH go to the kitchens because of Hermione's SPEW cause where they run across Dobby and Winky. The Trio discusses Dobby's freedom and his wages as well as what's happened to Winky since Crouch gave her the sack (or the clothes ). There are other House Elves there, we know, gladly handing food to them and listening to the conversation. (Chapter 21, The House-Elf Liberation Front) The house-elves have seen HRH in the company of that bad, rule breaking Dobby discussing freedom. I'm sure they noticed Hermione advocating house-elf freedom, as well as finding some SPEW buttons lying about somewhere. Perhaps they even read the SPEW manifesto. Maybe Hermione distributed them to the house-elves. Hermione, after all, wants to not only educate the human population about house-elf enslavement but also the house-elves themselves. Actually, while I've been looking up portions of the books in composing this response, I've begun thinking Hermione knows she can't free the house-elves. She's done all sorts of research on the subject (GoF, US paperback 224). She must know exactly what freeing a house-elf entails. So she's either learned that any student can free an elf or, more likely, she learned that she has no power to do so. What she's doing with the hats is symbolic of freeing them. She's trying to get the elves used to the idea of freedom. If the house- elves take the hats, in her mind it's a step in the right direction. If they were to begin wearing the hats, that would mean her message was getting through. The house-elves also obviously know that Hermione's hat's won't free them. They're refusal to even clean Gryffindor Tower because of the hats is their way of telling her that she is wrong. They do not want freedom. They're house-elves. They're built to serve. Hermione is offending their sense of being with her actions. Dobby says, "they finds them [the hats and socks] insulting." (OOP, US 385) Dobby, the only one to embrace freedom, is the only one willing to take Hermione's "gifts." Even Winky who was also freed, "still does not care for clothes." (OOP, US 385) She still rejects the idea of house-elf freedom and the hats that Dobby collects for her. KathyK (randomly wondering if Umbridge refused to pay Dobby wages while she was Headmistress...or does she *only* hate half-breeds? Something tells me she wouldn't be pleased a house-elf doesn't know his place) From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Fri Aug 22 02:20:44 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:20:44 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Income of professors at Hogwarts? References: Message-ID: <3F457DFB.000001.65189@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 78367 Amy: Does anyone have any idea whether working as a professor at Hogwarts would be considered a high or low income job? I'm intrigued by the idea that James and Lily could have been professors before their deaths, but I don't feel there's enough canon to support it yet. We know that the teachers are paid (since Lupin's DADA position was his first paid job in many years). I'm inclined to assume that teachers earn a relatively low income but I don't know anything about the income of professors at British/Scottish boarding schools. I'd love to hear anyone's thoughts or input on this topic. Me (K) - Well teachers at boarding schools tend to be paid a lot more than teachers at normal State schools, but that's because public schools always pay more than state schools - so I gues in part it goes back to is Hogwarts a 'state' school or is it independent and how well funded is it. Having said that the teachers would I imagine be living virtually for free 9 months of the year (board and food being provided by the school) so even if they weren't well-paid per se they would be a lot better of than people in jobs that on the surface appear to be better paid. But if James or Lily had been teachers I'm sure someone would have mentioned it to Harry by now. Besides when on earth would they have had the time? They were only in their early twenties when they died and in those few years they d managed to get married, have a child a repeatedly defy Voldemort - although bearing in mind Harry's defied Voldemort (so to speak) at least four times now I guess they could have done some of the 'defying' while at school. K From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 07:59:22 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 07:59:22 -0000 Subject: SOCKS and other presents In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78368 AmanitaMuscaria wrote: >Agreed the disturbing lack of thought in that scene - Ron throwing >Dobby the jumper from his mother, but also previous to that, Harry >fishing out a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks to give Dobby, >because he hadn't thought to get Dobby a present.. >I'm sure it's been brought up before, but in the light of >the 'protection', is that the reason the Dursleys(read Petunia >here?) send Harry _something_, whether it's a coathanger, 50p, or a >tissue, as a present? Is the 'present' a reinforcement of the >protection in some way? I think Ron just didn't want *another* maroon sweater. He didn't think about all the time his mum put into it, just he didn't really want it (teenagers are like that). And for someone who doesn't have a lot of money to spend on things, the thanks he got from an overjoyed Dobby were probably a very nice boost to his ego. Didn't Harry say/think on the very first train ride to Hogwarts : "Go on, have a pasty." said Harry, who had never had anything to share before or, indeed, anyone to share it with. It was a nice feeling. (pg 102 US softcover, Chapter 6- The Journey From Platform Nine and Three-Quarters) I actually think the Dursleys abominable gift choices (glad I'm not on their list) are *yet another* sign of their intense dislike for Harry. Think about it, it would be very easy to not send anything and claim they forgot him (which is what he wants a lot of the time) he's not their son after all. It takes forethought to send something so impersonal. It's like saying "This is how little we care for you." If sending a gift was enough to augment the blood sacrifice protection, I think the Dursleys would be more than happy (overjoyed more like it) to let Harry live somewhere else and send him things every so often. ~Margaret who could be very wrong, but thinks the Dursleys *were* just evil villians in the piece, but hopes they may be turning a corner with Voldemort back (Petunia and maybe Dudley at least) From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 08:24:35 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:24:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78369 "whizbang" wrote: (snip) > I don't think the "power" in Harry is an emotion, but I think it is > triggered by emotions. And I think what Harry has that Voldemort > doesn't is courage. And he was willing to die when Voldemort > possessed him. But it wasn't until he experienced a powerful > emotion that Voldemort, unable to bear the rush of power, fled. > Not unlike when Uncle Vernon couldn't hold on to him. > > What is this power triggered by emotion? Yep, I thought of courage too. But I don't know if we can really say that LV has no courage. He's afraid to die, this we know. But he doesn't seem to be afraid of anything else. Peter Pettigrew is for me the example of an ambitious coward, and Tom Riddle was nothing like him. Tom had the courage to go among dark wizards, and learn the Dark Arts. Also, isn't DD called "the only wizard LV was ever afraid of ?", which would imply that he wasn't ever afraid of anyone else. So I don't think we can say that LV doesn't have any courage. But I agree with you on the possible distinction between Harry's emotions and his special power, even though it leaves me very frustrated because I can't think of any other emotion-triggered power but the power of love, which just doesn't fit the description of Harry's power in my idea. Del From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 08:29:58 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:29:58 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Snipping the 99% of Talisman's post with which she has no argument, > Annemehr notes: The time-turned version of Harry was there to deflect the dementors. A neccessary result of time travel to the past is that an action you perform now (whatever it is that ennables time travel) is going to have an effect in the past, before the action was ever performed. Talisman, who really wanted to avoid the stink sap of time-travel theory, responds: 1) Even if time travel ultimately results in a single, albeit modified, reality, I maintain that you have to be functional to initiate the cycle. Sirius cannot use a time-turner to get himself out from behind the veil. Barty Crouch, Jr. can't get a time turner from Winky and take the Knight bus out of town before the last task. A soul-sucked Harry could not initiate the time travel that would create the one, seamless, unsucked reality you envision. 2)Moreover, even with one time, you have to concede multiple existences. That is to say, Hermione exists in all three of the classes for which she is triple booked, within the same "seamless" hour, but accruing all three experiences. If choosing to go to Arithmancy modified the earlier choice to go to Divination, there would be no benefit to the time turner. Therefore, if experiences accrue (albeit within one, somewhat overpopulated,time) as they do for Hermione, time-turned Harry would save an obviously soul-sucked Harry--under your "he was his own rescuer" theory. This he does not do. Even if you allow soul-sucked people to initiate time changes (which I don't), you can't allow Hermione to have apples the first time, oranges the second and bananas the third--and end up with all three; but say that Harry gets apples the first time, only these are taken away because he has oranges the second--so he gets only oranges. I don't know why the "footsteps" convince you so. Time-turned Harry and Hermione may well have heard original Harry and Hermione's footsteps in the entrance hall, but I'll bet they heard their own time-turned footsteps when they scampered out right after themselves. You can keep the time constant, but the experiences accrue. Ergo, either Hermione is going to fail 2/3 of her classes, or, if someone else didn't save Harry, you've always got a soul-sucked Harry experience to deal with. And don't even start with Buckbeak because, 1)Animal life is not human life; 2)Harry and Hermione HAVE "accrued" the experience of the original execution;and, 3)Dumbledore (not just time turned H & H)was obviously helping out here (stalling for time/looking amused/aware of what is going on) so there is no telling how he fiddle with this part of it. (PoA 401-402) Talisman, who noting the hour, wishes she had a time turner, too. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 08:38:07 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:38:07 -0000 Subject: Percy's House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78371 Forgive me if this has been discussed, I searched and always came up with either 1500 messages or 0 (darn the Yahoo powers that be!) Why isn't Percy in Slytherin? If the defining charcteristic of Slytherins is "use any means to achieve their ends" (Percy sending back his mum's sweater, that's just wrong!) "Power hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition" (definitly sounds like Percy) and the Weasleys are pureblood wizards as far back as anyone can remember, shouldn't he be? He seems like the type who's always wanted to be in the MoM, even before Hogwarts. I think JKR may have missed her chance for 'the good slytherin' here (assuming he shows some major redeeming qualities, including an apology for the sweater, in the last two books, until then, I'm counting him as evil-by-lack-of-goodness) ~Margaret who hopes Percy comes back and if not, hopes he's the Weasley who dies (if one really has to) From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 08:57:05 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:57:05 -0000 Subject: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78372 Talisman wrote: >Debates about the Sorting Hat blossom and subside on this site, with >the regularity of the seasons. I haven't followed a Sorting Hat >thread lately, >And, of course, we know the Hat would have been happy to put Harry >in Slytherin. I actually have a theory on this (see post #76525 for the whole thing, *I* think it's interesting ;-) The gist of which is that the hat, with its sneaky little sense of humour, was not going to put Harry in Slytherin HOUSE. It commented on the fact that he didn't want to be in Slytherin, and then said : "You could be great you know, it's all here in your head, and Slytherin will help you on you way to greatness, no doubt about that." (SS-paperback) Gratuitously quoting my own post here, be warned ;-) At the time, and even since, everyone has followed Harry's lead in thinking that this meant he should be in Slytherin HOUSE (strongly influenced by the theory in CoS that he was the one responsible) but I think this was meant another way. I think it's a reference to the Harry/Voldemort(the last (ancestor or decendant depending on you r copy of CoS) of Salazar Slytherin) conflict. I think it was a sign of the prophecy coming to light AND being fulfilled, that Harry has to be the one to defeat Voldemort. And I think it was quite possibly a prophecy (if a hat can make a prophecy, of course ;-) Just wanted to repeat myself I guess, but I do think it's an interesting idea. (you should SEE the ideas I have but reject for posting...oh wait, then you'll all think I'm nuts.....nevermind! ::hastily hiding pile of crumpled up papers with ideas on them::) ~Margaret Ps. Talismin: >while pure-blood Neville "can hardly stand a cauldron up the >right way." (116) (I know, I know, Neville fans--he might be >drugged/cowed by Grandma/stuck with Dad`s wand, etc. How about >Crabbe and Goyle, then?) I was all upset halfway through that sentence, but I'll give you the point on the moss covered boulders ;-) From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 08:58:07 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:58:07 -0000 Subject: Waspy Snape Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78373 Talisman, reviewing her field-guide to insects, notes: Many people seem to like the "Dumbledore means Bumblebee so he's the wasp" idea. Me? I say the fact that a Lily is a plant doesn't support the idea that Pottermum is the _Mimbulus mimbletonia_. Still I agree that the buzzing wasp that distracts Harry, as he is slipping into his ultimate Legilimency moment, is significant. (OoP 725) And I think we've seen that wasp before. "`Good training for when we're all Aurors,' said Ron excitedly, attempting the Impediment Curse on a wasp that had buzzed into the room and making it stop in midair." (GoF 608) Now who could it be? (Well, you should know me by now.) I've only noticed one character who is described in waspish terms. "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about the Gryffindors . . .." (CoS 186) "`I am here on Dumbledore's orders,' said Snape, whose voice, by contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish . . .." (OoP 518) Too right you are, Baby. If anyone notices this adjective applied to another character, please let me know. Talisman, who says, yes that's fangs and a stinger, for anyone who is keeping count. I don't even want to hear what Freud has to say. From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Fri Aug 22 09:05:11 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:05:11 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > > But then how are the hats and socks that Hermione is knitting and > hiding around the Gryffindor > > common room supposed to free them, since once again the elves would > > only pick them up themselves? Now Me- Because Hermione genuinely believes simply making the hats as gifts from her to the elves would set them free. What she's not aware of is that the hats have to be presented from master to elf, *personally*. And Dobby tells Harry in CoS the Malfoys are "careful not to pass Dobby even a sock, sir, for then he would be free to leave their house forever." So, since Harry's aware of this little fact, I don't know why he never mentioned it to Hermione. I guess he was too preoccupied... (Dobby said the elves were annoyed > > and would not clean the Gryffindor common room, but was it just > > because someone was trying to trick them? They weren't in any > > danger of being freed.) Me again- I think they were more annoyed at what Hermione believed she was doing, because technically they weren't being tricked. It's not like she hid the hats inside other obects and *handed* them to the house elves, like Harry with Malfoy. Though the elves know Hermione's way of trying to free them would not work, they still don't like the idea being pressed upon them. Dobby is the only "Dobby-like" house elf we've come across in the series, all the others take great offense to even having the word freedom being said in front of them. -Maritza (who doesn't believe Hermione's as well-rounded and wonderful as everyone tries to make her out to be, but still likes her) From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Fri Aug 22 09:09:13 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:09:13 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78375 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > The only question I still have on the topic, is if Hermione had the > power anyhow. Being that the gift would have to come from the Elves > master, and although I'm sure the elves listen and respect the > students, I'm not certain if a student would qualify as its master. > Being that Dumbledore is Headmaster and the one who hired Dobby. > > Hope some of that helps, still curious on my question though.. > > Joe This is just my honest oppinion, but- I think a master would be considered anyone whom the elves are *in service to*, which is everyone at Hogwarts. Yes, Dumbledore hired Dobby as well as Winky, but he didn't hire the rest of the elves. I'm guessing the current house elves were born in service to Hogwarts, just like the generations before them. Think of the Crouch family, isn't it one house elf family, serving one magical family? Or am I just making things up for the sake of my poor memory... I hope you get my general idea. -Maritza From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 09:35:10 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:35:10 -0000 Subject: SPEW how do you do ? (was Re: SOCKS and other presents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78376 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "david_p2002ca" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jesmck" wrote: > > > and now me (Jessica) > > If Harry gave Dobby socks and Ron gave him a jumper, wouldn't Dobby > > be free? And, if the reason these gifts didn't free him is because > > Harry and Ron aren't his master, then why is Hermione making all of > > those hats for the other house elves? > > By the time Harry and Ron gave Dobby those gifts he had already > received his manumission (1) (or should that be elfumission?) Thus, > providing clothes to Dobby had no effect - he was already free, > working for money and even the occasional holiday! > > Hermione's targets were the elves who were still bound to Hogwarts - > those who had not yet been freed. It does raise an interesting > question, though: could a student free a house elf, or would it > require a prefect, professor or even the headmaster - a person in > authority at the school - to release a house elf? > > David P. > > (Whose current laundry pile could free all the elves at Hogwarts) > > (1) http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=manumission Mlle: Ohh, maybe that's what the comment in SS/PS means... (the one about Dumbledore seeing himself with socks in the mirror of Erised) If DD is the only one who can free house-elves, the reason he wants the socks is to free the elves (Yes, I know this has been suggested many times ad nauseum. Bear with me...) If this was the case, he certainly could buy his own socks should he want to free the elves (or any other clothes for that matter) But it's the symbolism of the sock that is important to Dumbledore. So what he's really saying is that he wishes people would -want- him to free the house-elves. (as symbolized by people giving him socks). It's not an altogether different conclusion to the usual 'maybe DD wants the socks for the elves" theory, but I thought the distinction was worth mentioning. Mlle Bienvenu From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 09:42:30 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 09:42:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > "whizbang" wrote: > > (snip) > > > I don't think the "power" in Harry is an emotion, but I think it is > > triggered by emotions. And I think what Harry has that Voldemort > > doesn't is courage. And he was willing to die when Voldemort > > possessed him. But it wasn't until he experienced a powerful > > emotion that Voldemort, unable to bear the rush of power, fled. > > Not unlike when Uncle Vernon couldn't hold on to him. > > > > What is this power triggered by emotion? > > Yep, I thought of courage too. But I don't know if we can really say > that LV has no courage. He's afraid to die, this we know. But he > doesn't seem to be afraid of anything else. Peter Pettigrew is for me > the example of an ambitious coward, and Tom Riddle was nothing like > him. Tom had the courage to go among dark wizards, and learn the Dark > Arts. Also, isn't DD called "the only wizard LV was ever afraid > of ?", which would imply that he wasn't ever afraid of anyone else. > So I don't think we can say that LV doesn't have any courage. > Mlle Bienvenu: This might sound contradictory, but I define courage as feeling fear and still doing what you set out to do. LV, I don't think would fit this catagory. He may simply feel no fear towards the things, and therefore he didn't have to be brave to face them. Mlle Bienvenu From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Thu Aug 21 11:16:55 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 21 Aug 2003 06:16:55 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) References: <150.22f67bb4.2c7587ef@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F44AA27.1080100@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78378 EnsTren at aol.com wrote: > > I would like to point out that according to greek mythology there were no > female centaurs. They were expected to reproduce via mares and humans. > > If Ms. Rowling is following that myth, well, we would have a more solid > basis > for the rape accusation that would bipass the "too human" statement > > > > Nemi I have found no source in mythology to suggest that there are no female centaurs. Please provide some sort of proof for this. (ie. What book did you find this in. And no, Piers Anthony's Xanth is not acceptable as a source for Greek Myth) I would suspect that centaurs are so suspicious of humans that they do not allow their females to be seen by them. You don't see foals in their 'war party' that greets humans either. The most solid evidence that the centaurs didn't rape her is that its a CHILDREN'S BOOK. They would never publish it. Besides, its SATYRS, not centaurs that supposedly were all males and they mated with the 'all female' wood nymphs and anything else that would hold still long enough. In Greek Myth, only one centaur tried to run off with a woman (Hercules wife) and was killed. Jazmyn From hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 03:50:58 2003 From: hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com (say543) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:50:58 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay: Ouroboros in HP? (Pretty long!) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78379 This (or a version of this) is currently being debated in the Chamber of Secrets forums but that is closed know so I brought it here to see what everyone would make of it. The theory is that LV, after leaving Hogwarts, travels the world and gets steeped in the Dark Arts. (That part is canon). In the process, he comes across various prophecies written by Salazar Slytherin. They are full of anti-Muggle and Mudblood remarks and also foretell that there will be a Dark Lord (that LV recognizes as himself) who will be challenged by a boy. (This would explain why LV would later pay attention to a prophecy made by a fraud, SPT) If he kills the boy, he will become immortal. So LV eventually starts his gaining of power, killing people, etc.Eventually, SPT makes the prediction, and the 15 years of the books that we know already play out. In the climax of the final book, when Harry is 17, Harry and LV meet for a head on duel in the Department of Mysteries, specifically in the Time Room. Harry somehow utilizes love to partially disable LV, and then uses the first spell that come to mind - Obliviate, which he has learned in the past year. LV loses his memory, and wanders aimlessly around the room, eventually landing in a sort of time machine that sends him back about a thousand years. (We don't know exactly what everything in the Time Room is, and there being a Time machine would be probable. The time turner cabinet could possibly fill this role. Also, the whole "obliviate" deal is not essential to this theory - only the fact that LV is sent back in time is. How LV is sent back in time is not crucial. The memory charm idea is just one of many possibilities.) LV, in the past, gradually regains his memory - after all, Harry isn't too good at it, and Lockhart did have some coming back. He is recognized as a very strong wizard and becomes a part of the Hogwarts Founding Four - Slytherin. As he regains his anti-Muggle beliefs he fights the others more and more about who to let it, eventually leading to him leaving the castle. What has now occurred is an Ouroboros - a mythical snake in a circle that was perpetually eating its tail. Eventually he regains everything and writes prophecies about what happened in his past - others' future - to help his future self. His theory is that if his future self can defeat Harry, he will break the timeline that has occurred. After all, the prophecies had alrady been written by the time LV was born, and nothing can change that. If Harry was dead, the only one that could vanquish the Dark Lord is gone, and LV would live forever. So how does this fit in with Trelawney's prophecy?, you ask. For one, "vanquish" means to destroy or defeat, there is no mention of killing. By sending LV back to the past, Harry vanquished LV. However, there is a part of the theory that mentions killing: "Either must die at the other for neither can live while the other survives." Here, the word "for" is used in a poetic kind of way, and it really kind of equates and connects the two phrases, so that either they both are true or neither are true. In other words, if "neither can live while the other survives" - "they live at the same time" - is NOT true, than the first part about one dying at the hand of the other is NOT necessarily true. Furthermore, by banishing LV to another space-time sphere, Harry has in effect killed LV because he ceases to exist in Harry's space-time sphere. It is like how Sirius passes into another area when he goes through the veil. So, to sum up: LV is born, reads Slytherin's prophecies, and tries to kill Harry. Harry sends him back in time where he becomes Slytherin. In the past, Slytherin writes prophecies to help his future self. (Note: these prophecies are not real prophecies like SPT's, but they do have to come true.) Slytherin's theory is that LV could be able to break the timeline and the prophecies and everything that LV needed would still be there, as you can't change what has already occurred. This theory also explains the whole ancestor/descendent mistake/mystery-to-be-explained deal. While LV wouldn't be Slytherin's ancestor, but rather Slytherin itself, DD got confused in everything and just said that. Or, if that explanation doesn't suit you, LV went back to the past and became Slytherin's father but still wrote the prophecies. Either way, it explains the ancestor mystery. If it really should say ancestor and not descendent, than this is the only theory that makes sense that explains it. What does everyone think? From purrlygirlie at wildmail.com Fri Aug 22 04:29:45 2003 From: purrlygirlie at wildmail.com (purrlygirlie) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:29:45 -0000 Subject: new thoughts after rereading SS/PS--Warning: Long theory contained within In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78380 Stacy ("sberinsky") wrote, in reference to Harry and Voldemort: > > Like they compliment each other, and in a very strange way > > slowly becoming one. In the fifth book, this trend continues, with > > Harry lapsing into Voldemorts thoughts, and at the end, with > > Voldemort possessing him. > > > > In book two, Harry himself points out how much he is like Tom > > Riddle. >> > > The problem with all these theories, is that I cannot tell where > > it's going. Summarizing, Harry and Voldemort are seeming to become > > one creation, (I keep thinking of them like a Yin and Yang) but > > where do we go from here? > > > > Stacy > > Mlle Bienvenu: > > What if Voldemort wasn't trying to kill Harry, but transfer his own soul into >Harry's body? (and in essence, become young again) ... (two scenarios, it's a >soul-tranferring spell which basically shoves the other person's soul out, or >it's a soul-switching spell which would put harry in LV's body and LV in >Harry's body. Both cases effectivly kill Harry, as far as I can see.) Eh, I don't >know. I've been toying with the idea for some time, just thought I get it out >there. (these messages have been seriously cut to make way for my own long- winded theory) Purrly now: I love this. I logged on tonight because I just finished rereading OotP, and when I read the prophecy again, I was struck with a vision of how it could all end. My very own theory...well not really, part of it is borrowed. I thought I might post it, see what others thought. But first I wanted to read a few posts from the past day or so. And I am so glad I did. Because, this so ties into it all. So, my theory: I read a post a few weeks ago (sorry I don't remember the number and I don't have time to look it up. Can anyone help?) that introduced (to me at least) the idea that "Either must die at the hand of the other" might not be a case of "Either A must die at the hand of B, or B must die at the hand of A", but rather a case of "Either A or B must die at the hand of C, the 'other.'" This same post also brought up the point that as far as that "hand" is concerned, canon has a pretty significant one...Wormtail's. And Wormtail owes Harry his life. I was swaying towards the belief that the final confrontation would come down to Harry-Voldemort-Wormtail (formerly I had thought Snape would take that third slot), then I reread the prophecy. Now my new theory comes into play. Two parts struck me in reading the prophecy. First, the idea that Harry has a power that Voldemort "knows not", which I'm taking to mean "cannot grasp or use" versus "is not aware of." I think this must be love. We have the example from PS/SS: "If there is one thing Voldemort does not understand, it is love." SS/SP US paperback pg 299 And OotP gives us another example: "At least I'll see Sirius again.... "And as Harry's heart swelled with emotion, the creature's coils loosened, the pain was gone..." OotP US pg 816 The second thing that caught my eye was the use of the words "vanquish" & "die". Death is involved, and I'm going to go out on a limb and say it's going to be Voldemort not Harry. According to my dictionary, to vanquish means to defeat, to overcome or to subdue. No real mention of death. JKR could've made it "the one with the power to destroy" or "the power to kill." But it's "vanquish." Now I get to the part that has to do with this thread...My New Theory: I believe that in Bk 7, a confrontation will occur between Harry and Voldemort. Duh. I believe that Wormtail will be there and will surprise all-- or some-- by repaying his life-debt to Harry by killing Voldemort-- in some long and painful way involving his hand. As his body is dying, I believe Voldemort will try to possess Harry, taking over his body. Harry will by then truly be his "equal", and the two will come to an impass. In the end, it will be Harry's ability to love that will overcome-- perhaps hearing the cries of his friends-- allowing him to subdue, or defeat Voldemort, who will then be forced back into his own body and die by another's hand. So? What do ya'll think. I know that we still have two books to go and all the clues can't be out already. But seeing as Harry and Tom Riddle are such obvious doubles, and their bond is drawing them closer and closer, wouldn't it be a cool kind of analogy for fighting our own inner demons/ dark half and love being a force capable of saving souls? Well, if anyone's made it this far, thank you for your time and attention, Purrly From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 05:48:06 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:48:06 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumenc In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Nick M." > > > > I wouldn't think, logically speaking, that you would lose all > knowledge of a memory you place in the pensieve, but to think of it > more like a videocopy of a memory, used for objective viewing of > it... > > -Nick This gets at something I've been thinking about regarding the pensieve. (I've read through many posts and haven't seen this discussed yet, so let me know if I just missed it. ) The pensieve doesn't seem to be an objective viewing of a memory, but a totally subjective one, as it is taken directly from the person's mind. As we all know, our point of view totally colors how we remember things. So what I'm thinking is: 1) Maybe James wasn't that much of a jerk, 2) Maybe Lily wasn't that concerned with Snape, but did defend him, and 3) Maybe it wasn't all that big of a deal to other people at the time, but it loomed large for decades in Snapes mind. A lot of us play our humilations over and over again, don't we? serious_schwartz From impherring13 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 05:47:29 2003 From: impherring13 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:47:29 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78382 Sorry if this has been said, but yahoo has that notorious search engine and I can't find anything on it. If you would have seen the basilisk through a window? No. Just as Justin Finch-Fletchley didn't die looking straight through Nearly Headless Nick, and Collin Creevey didn't die when he saw it through the camera lens. Why then was Myrtle killed when viewing the basilisk straight through her glasses (CS 16)? Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, she should only have been petrified because of her glasses just as the camera and Nick saved the other two. -SD From slytherin_jenn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 22 05:49:46 2003 From: slytherin_jenn at yahoo.co.uk (slytherin_jenn) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 05:49:46 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Comment to Harry at the Ministry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78383 I've been trying to make some sense of this ever since I first read OoP and nothing has come to me yet. The scene right after the ministry hearing where Malfoy is talking to Fudge and Harry and Mr. Weasley see them, Malfoy says (p. 154 US version) "quite astonishing, the way you continue to wriggle out of very tight holes....*snakelike*, in fact(emphasis on snakelike by JKR)" I'm wondering what this quote means & would love to hear your comments. Thanks for listening to my insomniac rambles. Jenn From bjhage at aol.com Fri Aug 22 06:55:14 2003 From: bjhage at aol.com (BJHage) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 06:55:14 -0000 Subject: Were Harry's Temper Tantrums caused by Voldemort? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78384 One of the major points of OotP is Harry's behavior. How he seems to have fits of temper and throws tantrums or screams at his friends at the slightest provocation. I've been mulling this over and I have a few thoughts (yeah, I know... I have very few thoughts) anyways: 1) Throughout the entire series, Harry's scar has been a connection to Voldemort. It hurts when Voldemort is feeling strong emotions, etc. 2) The scar acts as some sort of link between Harry and Voldemort allowing either to view the actions and/or emotions of the other. 3) Harry shows a LOT of temper in OotP. 4) During every episode of Harry's temper that I could find in my sleep deprived scan of the book, Harry's outbursts are accompanied by a prickling sensation in his scar. 5) This indicate involvement by Voldemort. Therefore, isn't it likely that Harry's uncharacteristic fits of temper are not caused merely by the arrival of adolescence as we all seem to assume, but instead are caused by Voldemort using the link to either probe Harry's mind or even to insert these feelings of anger just as he inserts the dreams? Perhaps, JKR has a more subtle scenario going than we suspect? Perhaps, Snape's admonition to Harry about controlling his emotions is a key to controlling the intrusions? Although, I must admit that I still find his statements highly ironic considering that Snape himself is totally unable to control his own emotions, unless you consider stifling all virtuous emotions and giving free reign to your venial ones control. Can any of you good people out there show me where I've missed situations where Harry throws a tantrum that is not accompanied by activity from his scar? Perhaps I am just missing them. BJH From eclipse021342 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 08:21:03 2003 From: eclipse021342 at yahoo.com (Eclipse) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 01:21:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Order of Phoenix and the DA In-Reply-To: <200308191328.37937.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: <20030822082103.81218.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78385 Someone mentioned that the Order would be disbanded because now that everyone knew that Voldemort was back, the Ministry would probably be taking on this role. (Sorry, deleted the post.) However, I was thinking that Dumbledore ran the Order the first time around, when the Ministry should have been running things. Why? My only thought was that he realized that there were a lot of spies there, and knew that they would never get anything done. Still Dumbledore wasn't able to keep a spy out of his ranks. Dose this mean that he will run the Order this time around too? I would. After everything that happened, I wouldn't trust Fudge to take care of Voldemort. However, there has to be one person or group in charge. Otherwise, the groups will just end up fighting each other rather than Voldemort. I first thought that there should have been some Slytherin in the DA. However, after some thought I realized why there weren't any. They all knew that this was something that could get them in big trouble if they were caught. If I was running it, I would only want people that I trusted. Any from there would have to be vouched for by someone else. If I remember correctly, Harry and the others let people in who had overheard Ginny telling someone else. They had no way of knowing if these people would later tell on them. Eclipse --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From snosageau at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 10:30:07 2003 From: snosageau at hotmail.com (snosageau) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:30:07 -0000 Subject: SPEW how do you do ? (was Re: SOCKS and other presents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78386 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jesmck" wrote: and now me (Jessica) If Harry gave Dobby socks and Ron gave him a jumper, wouldn't Dobby be free? ***************************************************************** I guess it's because Dobby is already free - DD pays him a wage to serve at Hogwarts, so the clothes Ron and Harry present him are not going to change his arrangement for employment with DD. As for the hats, that confused me too. When Harry tricked Malfoy Snr into freeing Dobby, he gave the sock to M. Snr, who then threw it at Dobby. Harry didn't give it to him directly, so it seems that any bystander just can't come along and free any house elf he/she feels is being mistreated by it's master. So why does Hermione think she can free the house elves? Maybe because (as its already been stated I know), the house elves are in service to all who live at Hogwarts (see Kitchen scenes in Book Four - the way the elves rush to do HRH's bidding and see to their comfort)? I guess its just one of JKR's mysterys left for all of us to debate on and on and on, and lets face it, what would this list be like if JKR explained everything to finest detail? Snos From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 10:39:00 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:39:00 -0000 Subject: Generational Parallels - who is Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78387 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > Based on the tiny hint we saw about Lily in OoP who do you think of > the current generation most fits her character? > > It needs to be someone who isn't afraid to stand up for themselves or > others but who also obviously has a sense of humour and someone who > has a strong sense of right and wrong. > > The two obvious female candidates to me are Ginny or Hermoine. > > LPD Most definately Ginny. There are parallels between Ginny and Lily. Ginny is a strong female as was Lily. She is very good at cursing her brothers, Lily was strong at charms. She even reminds us of Lily physically as both have red hair. Wasn't it Ginny who freed the others from Draco and his cronies in Umbridge's office? D From sydpad at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 10:44:17 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 10:44:17 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: <3F44AA27.1080100@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78388 Jazmyn wrote: > > I have found no source in mythology to suggest that there are no female > centaurs. Please provide some sort of proof for this. (ie. What book > did you find this in. And no, Piers Anthony's Xanth is not acceptable > as a source for Greek Myth) > > I would suspect that centaurs are so suspicious of humans that they do > not allow their females to be seen by them. You don't see foals in their > 'war party' that greets humans either. > > The most solid evidence that the centaurs didn't rape her is that its a > CHILDREN'S BOOK. They would never publish it. > > Besides, its SATYRS, not centaurs that supposedly were all males and > they mated with the 'all female' wood nymphs and anything else that > would hold still long enough. In Greek Myth, only one centaur tried to > run off with a woman (Hercules wife) and was killed. That's incorrect, actually -- there's several myths that feature centaur's raping or attempting to rape human women, the wedding of Pirithous being the most famous: http://www.pantheon.org/articles/c/centaurs.html . According to Apollodorus, the mythological athlete Atlanta killed two centaurs, Rhoecus and Hylaeus, who attempted to rape her. For a loooong list of centaur names, click here: http://homepage.mac.com/cparada/GML/CENTAURS.html The existence of female centaurs is left up in the air until quite late in the classical period: http://hometown.aol.com/jwfvase2/page/centauress.html . Chiron, at least had a human (well, nymph) mother. The close association of satyrs and centaurs is explained a bit more here: http://hometown.aol.com/jwfvase2/page/dionysian.html#miscellaneous . As to how centaurs reproduce, it's not certain that they do (according to one version of the Greeks, anyhow)-- they were created under bizzare circumstances by a cloud. The 'nice' image of centaurs, at least from my own experience, comes from the fact that the only centaur myth we learn at school or in kid's greek myth books is the one about the gentle, learned Chiron. But Chiron (like Firenze!) was very much the exception to the general idea of centaurs. RE: Children's book-- that's a good reason why it wouldn't be on the page, necessarily, but there's plenty of horrible stuff going on in the series off-stage. Longbottoms tortured into insanity? And what were the Death Eaters doing to Muggle women, do you think? I think JKR deliberately left it ambiguous, so people could imagine whatever they could handle. -- Sydney (raving Classics geek) From crashing.boar at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 22 11:21:35 2003 From: crashing.boar at ntlworld.com (The Crashing Boar) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:21:35 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Myrtle's glasses References: Message-ID: <011101c3689f$8d6c9c60$7ad9fea9@l0t8v1> No: HPFGUIDX 78389 Although it is a wizard's camera, I assume the view finder is supplied with an image that is reflected up through the lens (a mirror system supplies a truer view), and I'd also assume that there is something to do with the 'substance' of NHNick that protected JF-F, he certainly isn't made of glass. Dawn From: Dave Sorry if this has been said, but yahoo has that notorious search engine and I can't find anything on it. If you would have seen the basilisk through a window? No. Just as Justin Finch-Fletchley didn't die looking straight through Nearly Headless Nick, and Collin Creevey didn't die when he saw it through the camera lens. Why then was Myrtle killed when viewing the basilisk straight through her glasses (CS 16)? Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, she should only have been petrified because of her glasses just as the camera and Nick saved the other two. -SD Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From abigailnus at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 11:27:27 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:27:27 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Thestral and Dark Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78390 Abigail, who's been testing out her new persona as a bohemian artiste, enters the Royal George in style. She's dressed entirely in black, with a single string of pearls hanging all the way down to her waist. Of course, Abigail can't really afford pearls, so what she's actually wearing is a string of pshychedelic love-beads that she found in the back of Stoned!Harry's closet. Nevertheless, she makes a grand entrance, flinging the doors wide open and striking an impressive pose against the setting TBAY sun. The image is somewhat spoiled when an overjoyed Prank leaps on her, knocking her to the ground, and begins licking her face. "Stupid mutt... gerroff!" She tries to shove the enthusiastic dog away. "George! Help!" George helps Abigail to her feet. "Whose dog is that?" She snaps at him, as she makes a vain attempt at brushing the dog hair off her clothes. "I think Marina brought him with her." He replies. "Well, in that case drinks are on her." Abigail says crossly, and trudges, artistic refinement all but forgotten, over to Marina's table, where a large group, including Derannimer and Kristini, are arguing happily. "Abigail!" Marina greets her happily. "Pull up a chair! We've just been discussing the mechanics of the Prank. We're trying to decide who told James about what Sirius had done. Some people say it was Lily, others that it was Peter, and still others say that there was no middleman and Sirius told James himself, JKR's awkward phrasing be damned. Care to offer an opinion?" "On the Prank? I don't think so." Abigail shakes her head as she accepts a drink from George. "I'm strictly a non-dog person when I'm on TBAY. But may I ask, who does that remarkable ship berthed outside belong to?" "You mean the ship that's covered in black crepe bunting?" Marina asks. "Yes." "The one with life-size mourning cameos attached to all the sails?" "Uh-huh." "And the flag-pole that's only reaches to half-mast?" "That's the one." "Why, that's my ship." Marina says proudly, but with a twinge of grief in her voice. "The USS SAD DENIAL." She lowers her glass and stares wistfully into the middle distance. "He will rise!" "Um, yeah." Abigail says, rather uncomfortably. "I only asked because a rather dour-faced person standing next to the gangplank gave me this pamphlet, and I've been hoping to discuss it with someone." She pulls out a piece of paper in shades of grey and dark purple. Sombre letters spell out 'The Importance of Thestrals'. "I think that's one of mine." Marina says. "Although Terry, that is, one of the Terrys, gave me the idea. You see," she settles herself more comfortably into her chair, "Terry said that we know the thestrals can find their way anywhere, and wasn't it a little mundane to waste that on the Ministry of Magic? Terry suggested that the Thestrals would take Harry to the place behind the veil." "And you agreed with her." Abigail says. "Oh, most certainly." Marina replies. "JKR did emphasize the Thestrals' connection with death and their ability to find any location you ask them to go to. And you know what that means, don't you? Not only can they find their way beyond the veil, but..." She pauses dramatically. "They can also find the way *back*! And Sirius is a special case, isn't he? Most people pass behind the veil as spirits, leaving their bodies on this side. You can't bring back a disembodied spirit. But Sirius went through physically. He should be able to come back physically. All he needs is transport." Abigail considers this for a few minutes. "I like it." She says finally. "You do? Oh, wonderful!" Marina enthuses. "Can I interest you in one of our STUFFED BEARs?" "Not hardly." Abigail says, accepting another drink from George and picking some more dog hair off her clothes. "I like the idea that Harry will travel to the underworld to retrieve Sirius. After all, by the end of OOP he's already attempted several desperate measures to contact him. He tries to go beyond the veil himself, he tries to use the mirror to contact Sirius, and he tries to find out if Sirius could become a ghost. His behavior when he speaks to Luna notwithstanding, it's clear that Harry hasn't accepted the fact or the finality of Sirius' death. Where we disagree is in whether Harry will succeed." "Oh, heavens, not another one." Marina says. "I've been hearing this argument day and night, you know. The one about thematic consistency. About how JKR worked so hard to show us that death is definite, the millions of assurances that no one can return from the dead. It's getting a bit old, you know." Abigail smiles. "Oh, I'm quite certain that it is possible to return Sirius from the dead in the manner which you've described, using the Thestrals, and I believe that Harry will attempt to do so. It's just that I firmly believe that any such attempt will fall under the category of Dark Magic." With a flick of a wand, Abigail produces a scroll of parchment so faded and covered with dust that it is barely legible. Marina can almost make out a message number - 35276. "I wrote this ever so long ago." Abigail says wistfully. "During a discussion on Harry and Voldemort's wands. Listen to this: >>Voldemort, representing and embodying evil, is all about the defeat of death. The name "Voldemort" with which he had been associated with since he was a child, means "the death of death", his followers are the eaters of death, even his symbol is the Morsmordre - death of death again. By his own admission, his final goal in the bad old days was to achieve immortality, and he worked very hard to protect himself against death so that, having been hit by the Avada Kedavra curse, he still managed to survive in some basic, bodyless form. Taking these ambitions away from Voldemort's other ambitions (namely, ruling the world, killing muggles and muggle-born wizards, and general murder and mayhem) they don't seem so terrible. After all, what could be better than conquering death? ... It's Hagrid who answers this question at the very beginning of the series when he says of Voldemort "Some say he died... Don't know if he had enough human left in him to die." In other words, in Potterverse, evil isn't represented by death and good by life, but almost the other way around. ... The pheonix, then, represents not immortality but resurrection - life *through* death, not without it, just as Harry's life is saved through the death of his mother. To be a dark wizard, then, is to dispute the natural order of things - that everything must change and die - and attempt to change it.>> "Voldemort's obsession with escaping death is reiterated in his confrontation with Dumbledore, immediately following Sirius' death. 'There is nothing worse the death!', he avers. I think at this point Harry agrees with him. I think he will attempt to change the natural order of things, and I think that it will be his darkest hour - we already see a hint that Voldemort's actions are beginning to draw Harry into darkness when he attempts to Crucio Bellatrix. I believe that, like Orpheus, Harry will find himself at the end of his trip to the realm of Hades clutching nothing but air, with the taste of ashes in his mouth." Abigail smiles. "His salvation will come only if he accepts Luna's assurances that he will indeed see Sirius again, and not through trying to defeat death but by accepting it." Abigail is silent for a few moments, and then begins frantically brushing at her clothes again. "Damn, Marina, how much hair does that dog have?" Abigail From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 22 11:41:42 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:41:42 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78391 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: > (Don't feel that you have to like Lupin less because of his > cowardice, though. To me, this trait is actually endearing. It makes > him astonishingly human in my eyes, even though there's absolutely no > self-identification in this scene for me at all. > Aside - was JKR taking a risk in giving Lupin such an unappealing > negative trait? There's no questioning the fact that cowardice is > less likeable than hot-headedness, recklessness and a tendency to > show off. It certainly increased *my* affection for Lupin, but how > about other readers? It was a risk, but then JKR has never shied away from saddling her heroes with serious personality flaws. (It's her villains who tend to lack balancing positive traits.) I don't know if the Pensieve scene actually *increased* my affection for Remus, but it did resonate strongly with his speech in the Shrieking Shack, and it underelined for me just how desperate for friendship and acceptance he's been all his life. I think the saving grace for Remus is that he's an emotional coward rather than a physical one. We never see him cringing away from pain or danger, or backing down from his enemies. It's his friends he gives in to. (Thus proving Dumbledore's point about how it's harder to stand up to your friends than to your enemies.) To me, at least, it makes him come across as sympathetic and vulnerable rather than despicable. Even as I strongly disapprove of many of the things he's done, I sympathize even more strongly with the fear and pain that led him to do them. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 11:56:57 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 11:56:57 -0000 Subject: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" > > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > > > wrote: > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > How did Fudge know the dementors tried to Kiss > Harry? > > > > > James Redmont said: > > > > DD told him, I'll bet. How did DD know? He knows everything, > > > > doesn't he? > > > > > > > > Talisman,swoops in to say: > > > > > > I believe Snape told DD. Snape was the only one in a position > to do > > > so. > > > > Snape here: > > Snape came to as the dementors were proceding back to their guard > posts. He would not have seen anything happen, as he did not mention > Harry's patronus, Snape didn't know what caused the dementors to > retreat. > > > > > bboy_mn: > > > > Here is a wild and crazy idea, maybe Fudge talked to the Dementors > and asked them what happened. > > Severus here: > > I believe it was DD's ability to read minds through that L word that > Snape used on Harry to teach him that Occulemency (sp?). But if > Fudge took this as fact, wouldn't he also except the fact that > Wormtail was actually there, because DD would be able to see it in > Harry's, Hemione's, and Ron's minds? And Sirious would receive a > full pardon? There are too many inconsistencies, the only way that > Fudge could know was that he either spoke to the dementors (can they > speak?) or he had ordered the kiss to be used against Harry. Maybe > under the mind control of MacNair, a know DE. > > > snip > Severus here: > > Sirius was the first to go down from the dementors effect, he would > not have seen anything either. And as far getting anything out of > Harry, he was unconscious until woken by Fudges conversation with > Snape outside the hospital wing door. Same with Hermione. Poppy > never mentioned the fact that either was muttering in their sleep. > Ron was out until they returned from using the time turner. > > bboy here: > > > snip < > > Short version: The Dementors told him. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > > Severus here: > > Or he told them to do it and Harry drove them away with his > patronus. And since Harry survived, Fudge had to cover his butt. > I believe Fudge doesn't care for Harry or if he survives at all, to > Fudge, he is just bait to get Sirius to show at Hogwarts. And this > could be backed up in GoF, Fudge was helping Harry, so he could win > the TWC and be the one to touch the cup. Does Fudge know that > Wormtail is still alive and tried to catch Sirius before he got to > Wormtail? I think Fudge is a DE sympathiser (sp?). > > Severus /comment: Further proof that Fudge is a LV supporter as I have said along, and gotten shot down more than once. IMVHO, I think Fudge showing up at the Leaky Cauldron to make sure Harry was alright was just a cover. Fudge was there to make sure that Harry will get to where Fudge wants him so the Dementors can do their job. I also wonder (this is going to be really out there for most people) if the army of creatures that all fear as stated by LV in GOF is the same creatures that Luna Lovegood says that Fudge is breeding in OOTP. Fran Its my party and I'll cry if I want to... From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 12:09:39 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:09:39 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78393 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > wrote: > party) / > > > > EVENT > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > Book 6: Unveiling the veil > >> > > And a couple more: > > Book 6: Lucius Malfoy gets out of Azkaban and causes problems (id > > you really think he would stay put??) > > Book 7: We find out what happens to the survivors. > > > me: > Don't forget: > Book 6: Harry misunderstands Snape's actions > Book 6: Harry blames Snape > Book 7: Harry misunderstands Snape's action > Book 7: Harry blames Snape > > and yes I read the suggestion that Harry learns Snape's secret. What > I didn't see was: > Book 6: Harry *gives* a schnitt. > > > Melpomene who is hoping the next 2 books *do* offer a couple of > surprises. ADD IN: *How about Harry learns Snapes secret from Hermione who has known along but sworn to secrecy. *We finally find out who was kissing Florence and why it is important, if it's important at all. *More about Luna, and her role in helping Harry. *and my favorite, even though people strongly disagree, it how deep Fudge is in with LV. Fran From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 22 12:18:53 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:18:53 -0000 Subject: Hermione's Hats In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78394 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Joe" wrote: > > > > But then how are the hats and socks that Hermione is knitting and > > hiding around the Gryffindor > > > common room supposed to free them, since once again the elves > would > > > only pick them up themselves? > > Now Me- > > Because Hermione genuinely believes simply making the hats as gifts > from her to the elves would set them free. > was too preoccupied... > (Dobby said the elves were annoyed > > > and would not clean the Gryffindor common room, but was it just > > > because someone was trying to trick them? They weren't in any > > > danger of being freed.) > > Me again- > > I think they were more annoyed at what Hermione believed she was > doing, because technically they weren't being tricked. . > > > -Maritza (who doesn't believe Hermione's as well-rounded and > wonderful as everyone tries to make her out to be, but still likes > her) now Susan: I think Maritza is very right. The house elves ran away from the trio and pushed them out of the kitchen when Hermoine went on one of her SPEW tirades in the kitchen. I think this is Hermoine's big flaw. When she feels strongly about something she becomes narrow minded and cannot understand the "other" side of the coin so to speak. She cannot fathom that a house elf truly is happy being a house elf. Therefore, she is blinded to the reality that she cannot free the elves. The house elves are ecstatic having a lot of work to do. Granted some of them realize that the masters they serve may be nasty but that does not discount the fact that they love hard work. I love Hermoine but when she gets off on a tangent her immaturity shines thru. I also think they are resentful of her for trying to force them to do something they are so very against and that is why they refuse to touch the items she makes or clean the Gryffindor tower. Susan just my 2 cents. From redfish5 at onetel.com Fri Aug 22 12:18:40 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:18:40 -0000 Subject: My ending of harry potter(very sad, gerneral overview) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78395 I thought of an ending dor Harry Potter, I hope uit doesnt happen...its too sad Note: during the battle hermione is killed by Draco Malfay Before the final battle, harry and ron take polyjuice of each other the confuse voldemort, ron is confronted by voldemort on the plinth, then killed Harry, in righteous anger, kills voldemort as ron, but, the reader doesnt know this, and then you have a great paragraph or page where the readers all confsued then he turns back to harry. few pages of feelings.... In anger, he tries to kill a weeping draco, stunning Dumbledore to get to a captured Draco, but he can't, then he picks ron and hermione up and takes them into the veil, there, he[s back at his first day at school, everyone is whispering its "harry, its potter", "the harry potter" "yeh, its really him". The sorting hat is sitting there harry walked through the hall of whispering, and tries it on, Mcgonagall is there, smiling. The sorting hat stays motionless, and Mogonagall frowns. ron and hermione are among the crowd holding hands(R/H shipper, but lets not debate that), beaming, Sirius is there to, waving. And most importantly, his parents are there. Mgonagall takes the hat off his head "must have made a mistake, she muttered. The doors burst open. It is dumbledore, he strides foward and takes Harry with him, he fights to stay with ron and hermione, and Sirius, but he can't break dumbledores grip. Dumbledore takes him back through the veil: "Harry, i told you once that no spell can re-awaken the dead, but this room, while the thin connection between death and life, the veil as you know it exists, you can utilise the power in your viens to bring one back" thats a GENERAL idea, I don't like that but you get the general idea. Harry, after several pages of thought, flashbacks, decides to bring neither back, he couldn't live with himself, let them be as one, in death, in the veil and in eternal happiness. Together. ginny (or whoever harry's in love with, again, lets not debate that here) takes him by the hand, and DOESN'T kiss him, just hugs him tight. I he is with no one, it would probably be ginny anyway. Whatcha think? its a bit sad, but I like the "its potter" "the harry potter?" bit, first day at school, it needs work and I would ove to hear your comments! From redfish5 at onetel.com Fri Aug 22 12:25:54 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:25:54 -0000 Subject: My ending of harry potter(very sad, gerneral overview) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78396 very sorry about the early typos! I feel I had to post this as my first post off moderated status I do some really horrible typos. Very sorry all. Seb From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 22 12:46:49 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:46:49 -0000 Subject: Narcissa Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78397 I noticed the post about Narcissa being bad or good. And I just wanted to add to it rather then just reply to the message already on the board. We have not seen enough of her to really make a judgement in this manner, but what we have seen tends to show me that she is a more or less jealous of Harry. She is agreeing to raise Draco to be a little Death Eater, but I don't think she wants him to be. I think that she is leaning on the lines of, why couldn't I just sacrifice myself like Lily did for her son. It saved him from Voldemort. I don't believe she wants to put her son into danger but could not find a way out of it like Lily did. I do not believe that Draco will become a Death Eater, even though JKR is pointing in that direction. Maybe something will change in Draco by the 7th book making us all look or feel like damn we should have got that one. Maybe Draco will fall in love with someone who makes him act right. JKR told us we are liking Draco more then we should. But I don't think it's because he is going to become a Death Eater, I think it's because he is too self centered to try to ruin his pretty looks. And I think he gets that from Narcissa. Lori From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Fri Aug 22 12:52:14 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 12:52:14 -0000 Subject: Percy's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > Forgive me if this has been discussed, I searched and always came up > with either 1500 messages or 0 (darn the Yahoo powers that be!) > > > > Why isn't Percy in Slytherin? > > If the defining charcteristic of Slytherins is "use any means to > achieve their ends" (Percy sending back his mum's sweater, that's > just wrong!) "Power hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition" > (definitly sounds like Percy) and the Weasleys are pureblood wizards > as far back as anyone can remember, shouldn't he be? > > He seems like the type who's always wanted to be in the MoM, even > before Hogwarts. > > I think JKR may have missed her chance for 'the good slytherin' here > (assuming he shows some major redeeming qualities, including an > apology for the sweater, in the last two books, until then, I'm > counting him as evil-by-lack-of-goodness) > > > ~Margaret > who hopes Percy comes back and if not, hopes he's the Weasley who > dies (if one really has to) Quite agree with you, except for one thing, Do you think that Fudge will remain Minister of Magic? And if he doesn't who do you think would want that post, Maybe someone like Mr Crouch, someone that is Percy! And given the fact that he is a Weasley he would be well liked by most of the WW. Regardless of his falling out with his parents. Percy to me should have been a slytherin but choose to be in Gryffindor because of his family. Weasley's are braver then most, as we can see from Ron with the Spiders. He wished they were butterflies but instead they were Spiders. Lori From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:08:30 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:08:30 -0000 Subject: Percy's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78399 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > Forgive me if this has been discussed, I searched and always came up > with either 1500 messages or 0 (darn the Yahoo powers that be!) > > > > Why isn't Percy in Slytherin? > > If the defining charcteristic of Slytherins is "use any means to > achieve their ends" (Percy sending back his mum's sweater, that's > just wrong!) "Power hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition" > (definitly sounds like Percy) and the Weasleys are pureblood wizards > as far back as anyone can remember, shouldn't he be? > Yes, but just because Percy is ambitious doesn't mean he's not brave. Really I wonder why people keep asking why he isn't in Slytherin. He works incredibly hard. That's usually seen a Hufflepuff trait. He seems to be very intelligent. That's Ravenclaw. How come no one ever asks why he isn't in Hufflepuff or Ravenclaw? Besides, Percy ins't willing to "use any means." Or at least he hasn't shown himself to be yet. If he were, he'd have stayed closed to his family and spied on them (like Athur suggested was the intent of his promotion) instead of breaking contact. Percy wants to succeed, but I don't think we've ever seen him cheat or walk all over someone else to do it. I think Percy belonged in Gryffindor and not Slytherin the same way Hermione belongs in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw. Partially by traits, partially by choice. bibphile From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:11:31 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:11:31 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78400 "Dave" wrote: > Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, she should only have > been petrified because of her glasses just as the camera and Nick > saved the other two. Colin : I don't know anything about how cameras are made, but I guess it could be a device in which most of the light received goes to the film, and only a small part of it to the viewer. It would then make sense that Colin didn't die. Of course, if his camera was one of those where the pre-view window is just a window, then it doesn't work. Justin : Nick took the full blast of the deadly gaze, Justin received only what went through Nick. Hermione and Penelope : the mirror reflected back to them only a part of the energy coming from the Basilisk's eyes. Myrtle : glasses do reflect and deflect light a bit, but really not much, so that most of the energy went directly into Myrtle's eyes. Del From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:18:04 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:18:04 -0000 Subject: Income of professors at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: <3F457DFB.000001.65189@monica> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78401 > Amy: > > Does anyone have any idea whether working as a professor at Hogwarts > would be considered a high or low income job? Laura: I don't know about income-the whole money thing is pretty vague in canon. But I surmise that it's a high-status job. These are the people who are training the next generation of leaders of the British wizarding establishment, after all. If they get a good salary, though, how come Remus didn't pick up at least one respectable robe? Maybe Snape was making him pay premium prices for the Wolfsbane... From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:26:17 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:26:17 -0000 Subject: The Order of Phoenix and the DA In-Reply-To: <20030822082103.81218.qmail@web80704.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78402 Eclipse:" Someone mentioned that the Order would be disbanded because now that everyone knew that Voldemort was back, the Ministry would probably be taking on this role. (Sorry, deleted the post.) However, I was thinking that Dumbledore ran the Order the first time around, when the Ministry should have been running things. Why? My only thought was that he realized that there were a lot of spies there, and knew that they would never get anything done." True, but there's more: everyone now knows that Dumbledore and Hogwarts, not the Ministry, is the center of resistance against Voldemort, and that the true leader is Dumbledore. Will Fudge survive as MoM? It depends on how the wizard world governs itself. If it was a European parliamentary system, there'd be a vote of no confidence in no time, and Fudge would be out on his ear. The Order of the Phoenix will survive, as the point of Dumbledore's spear. They will be effective in ways the Ministry won't be. The DA will also still exist, as an official group this time, with Harry as its leader. The best, NEWT level DADA students will be its members, and band together in defense of Harry and the school at a time when things are desperate. I believe that a time will come when Voldemort attacks Hogwarts directly. He almost has to, because he can't allow Dumbledore and Harry to have a safe, secure base while he has none. Jim Ferer From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:35:41 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:35:41 -0000 Subject: Narcissa (and Draco) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78403 "scooting2win" wrote: > We have not seen enough of Narcissa to really make a judgement > in this manner, Quite true. Very very little canon concerning Narcissa. > but what we have seen tends to show me that she is a more or less > jealous of Harry. What do you infer that from ? > She is agreeing to raise Draco to be a little Death Eater, We don't even know that. Maybe she doesn't want that. Maybe Lucius put her under an Imperius curse. > but I don't think she wants him to be. I think that she is leaning > on the lines of, why couldn't I just sacrifice myself like Lily did > for her son. It saved him from Voldemort. I don't believe she wants > to put her son into danger but could not find a way out of it like > Lily did. Interesting theory ! Do you have the smallest bit of canon to support it though ? > I do not believe that Draco will become a Death Eater, even though > JKR is pointing in that direction. Maybe something will change in > Draco by the 7th book making us all look or feel like damn we > should have got that one. Maybe Draco will fall in love with > someone who makes him act right. JKR told us we are liking Draco > more then we should. But I don't think it's because he is going to > become a Death Eater, I think it's because he is too self centered > to try to ruin his pretty looks. And I think he gets that from > Narcissa. Huh-huh. I'm not terribly convinced, but then I'm not convinced by JKR's treatment of Draco, Crabbe and Goyle anyway. Seems to me like she needed them in the previous books, but now that the serious stuff is going on, she doesn't know what to do with them. Del From bibphile at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:35:55 2003 From: bibphile at yahoo.com (bibphile) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:35:55 -0000 Subject: Income of professors at Hogwarts? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78404 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > Amy: > If they get a good salary, > though, how come Remus didn't pick up at least one respectable robe? > Lupin probably hasn't ever held one job for very long. That might create the habit of putting up every spare knut for later, when he probably wouldn't be employed. Sorry, that's the best I can come up with. bibphile From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:46:46 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:46:46 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78405 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > "Dave" wrote: > > > Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, she should only have > > been petrified because of her glasses just as the camera and Nick > > saved the other two. > > Colin : I don't know anything about how cameras are made, but I guess > it could be a device in which most of the light received goes to the > film, and only a small part of it to the viewer. It would then make > sense that Colin didn't die. Of course, if his camera was one of > those where the pre-view window is just a window, then it doesn't > work. > > Justin : Nick took the full blast of the deadly gaze, Justin received > only what went through Nick. > > Hermione and Penelope : the mirror reflected back to them only a part > of the energy coming from the Basilisk's eyes. > > Myrtle : glasses do reflect and deflect light a bit, but really not > much, so that most of the energy went directly into Myrtle's eyes. > > Del My turn: Colin, wizard camera? Did his camera give off the same smoke as the photographer's in Flourish & Blotts? I remember him saying something about developing the film in a certain potion. That is what makes the photographs move. So, about Myrtle. People who wear glasses, when they cry, don't they take them off? Simple answer. She was crying, heard a voice, stuck her head out of the stall and didn't put her glasses on quick enough. Maybe?? Marci From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:52:16 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:52:16 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78406 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: > "Dave" wrote: > > > Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, she should only have > > been petrified because of her glasses just as the camera and Nick > > saved the other two. > > > > Justin : Nick took the full blast of the deadly gaze, Justin received > only what went through Nick. > > Hermione and Penelope : the mirror reflected back to them only a part > of the energy coming from the Basilisk's eyes. > > Myrtle : glasses do reflect and deflect light a bit, but really not > much, so that most of the energy went directly into Myrtle's eyes. > > Del Snape here: The camera in question is a single lense reflex, meaning the image is bounced off a mirror then to the view finder (eye piece), so a mirror saved Creevy (sp?). Myrtle took the full blast as her glasses did not reflect the image into her eyes. The reason Cedric survived was that Nick is partialy alive and absorbed some of the dark magic. I believe if you were on one side of a window and a basilisk (sp?) was on the other and you looked at it's eyes, you would be toast. A clear window bends light, but it may not do anything to dark magic. A mirror is backed in silver, and silver does have some magical properties, it's use against vampires, werewolves, etc. So it could be because of the silver used in the mirrors that saved the two girls and Colin. Sorry for the ramble, my doc said I should be the poster child for adult ADD, and I have a hard time staying congruient (sp?). Severus "where's my adderall?" Snape From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 13:54:20 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:54:20 -0000 Subject: Narcissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78407 Lori:" We have not seen enough of her to really make a judgment in this manner, but what we have seen tends to show me that she is a more or less jealous of Harry. She is agreeing to raise Draco to be a little Death Eater, but I don't think she wants him to be." Why not? We've seen very little of Narcissa Malfoy, but what little we have, particularly the way she passed on Kreacher's information immediately and the mention of "the Malfoys" acting together, shows her as being a participant in Lucius's evildoing. There isn't one word in the canon that makes me think either Mummy or Daddy has any problem with Draco being the evil little SOB that he is. There's no sign they are not 100% behind Draco's desire to murder Buckbeak, throw out Hagrid and Dumbledore, everything he does, apparently. I don't know if Draco is going to be a Death Eater or not, but we know where his sympathies lie. Let's see: Draco is a bully (demonstrated over and over and over) Draco is a bigot (Mudbloods) Draco is a coward (flees at the first sign of trouble) Draco taunts his enemies with the death of a good person (disgusting) I will concede this: there's no sign that Draco has developed a coherent DE philosophy, he just follows Daddy and thinks being evil is much cooler. Also, we haven't seen him do serious harm to someone yet. He's got all the prejudices and attitudes to form a Death Eater, but we'll see. I think the chances of ever seeing a Redeemed!Draco are poor indeed. Jim F. From delwynmarch at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 14:00:10 2003 From: delwynmarch at yahoo.com (Doriane) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:00:10 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78408 "Marci" wrote: > So, about Myrtle. People who wear glasses, when they cry, don't > they take them off? Simple answer. She was crying, heard a voice, > stuck her head out of the stall and didn't put her glasses on quick > enough. It would make it nice and simple, for sure. I'd say it depends on how much she needed them. I'm severely short-sighted, and I was already so at Myrtle's age. I was wearing glasses. Did I take them off when crying ? Not necessarily. Would I have left the stall without them on ? Never ! Without them, everything is blurred. I would not deliberately have gone and talked to anyone without them on, because I feel terribly vulnerable without them or my lenses on. Moreover, short-sighted as I was, I would not have recognized the Basilisk's eyes for eyes, I would just have seen two big yellow thingys. But does it say whether Myrtle is short- or far-sighted ? If she's far-sighted, then all my objections vanish as smoke :-) Del From sylviablundell at aol.com Fri Aug 22 14:33:10 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:33:10 -0000 Subject: years between books Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78409 Why is everyone saying that there is going to be a wait of several years before we get Book 6. Is this official or just wild guesswork, based on the time between Books 4 and 5? I understood that Book 6 was going to be much shorter than the two previous ones, so I hardly think a wait of years is likely. God, I hope not. especially as there probably WILL be a healthy gap between Books 6 and 7. Please say it isn't so. Sylvia From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 14:36:37 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:36:37 -0000 Subject: Narcissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78410 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" wrote: > I noticed the post about Narcissa being bad or good. And I just > wanted to add to it rather then just reply to the message already on > the board. We have not seen enough of her to really make a judgement > in this manner, but what we have seen tends to show me that she is a > more or less jealous of Harry. She is agreeing to raise Draco to be > a little Death Eater, but I don't think she wants him to be. I think > that she is leaning on the lines of, why couldn't I just sacrifice > myself like Lily did for her son. It saved him from Voldemort. I > don't believe she wants to put her son into danger but could not > find a way out of it like Lily did. I do not believe that Draco will > become a Death Eater, even though JKR is pointing in that direction. > Maybe something will change in Draco by the 7th book making us all > look or feel like damn we should have got that one. Maybe Draco will > fall in love with someone who makes him act right. JKR told us we > are liking Draco more then we should. But I don't think it's because > he is going to become a Death Eater, I think it's because he is too > self centered to try to ruin his pretty looks. And I think he gets > that from Narcissa. Lori Snape here: Don't know about Narcissa, but IMHO I think Draco is a magical version of Dudley. I know Lucious sees no wrong in what Draco does but he doesn't gloss it over as Dudley's parents do. Jumps him pretty good for losing out to a mudblood, but I also remember the comment made to Draco by Lucious stating that Draco should not let it be known that he dislikes HP. This just is for pretences though. Dudley pals around with to smaller kids (dudley is the muscle), Draco pals around with two bigger kids (crabbe and goyle are the muscle, but draco is the brains). Both Draco and Dudley are slightly sadistic and like to cause pain, Draco goes for mental pain and Dudley, with his serious lack of mental faculties, goes for physical pain. Does JKR have plans for them?, I think so. They were a prominent part of Umbridges plot to destroy Hogwarts, as they went around and basically made everyones day miserable (except for the slytherins) and fed information to Umbridge. Draco was implemental in the stories printed in the Quibbler, he was the insider feeding information to whats her face. He is also the one to tell on Harry any chance he got, even got himself in detention during SS. I think he may end up being the insider at hogwarts that feeds information about the DA to the DE's (his dad). Will Lucious then use this knowledge and his power of influence to get the DA disbanned and outlawed? We can only wait and see. And as far as him being pretty, he is always described as sharp faced and long nosed, vulturish maybe? If he thinks he is pretty he must be slightly delusional, probably caused by his mother. Remember this just my opinion. Severus "I think Harry sounds plain too." Snape From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 14:42:57 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:42:57 -0000 Subject: years between books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78411 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Why is everyone saying that there is going to be a wait of several > years before we get Book 6. Is this official or just wild guesswork, > based on the time between Books 4 and 5? I understood that Book 6 > was going to be much shorter than the two previous ones, so I hardly > think a wait of years is likely. God, I hope not. especially as > there probably WILL be a healthy gap between Books 6 and 7. > Please say it isn't so. > Sylvia I remember JKR saying somewhere that she'd already started on book 6 - and that that was good going, with the small baby. I suppose her little son will slow things down, but if she's already started, and she said it takes her about a year to write it, maybe it could be a gap of two years at the most? I hope so - an agonisingly enormous gap would be torture, though I'll be dreading book 7 as that = the end. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 14:47:35 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:47:35 -0000 Subject: Waspy Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78412 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > Talisman, reviewing her field-guide to insects, notes: > > Many people seem to like the "Dumbledore means Bumblebee so he's the > wasp" idea. Me? I say the fact that a Lily is a plant doesn't > support the idea that Pottermum is the _Mimbulus mimbletonia_. > > Still I agree that the buzzing wasp that distracts Harry, as he is > slipping into his ultimate Legilimency moment, is significant. (OoP > 725) > > And I think we've seen that wasp before. > > "`Good training for when we're all Aurors,' said Ron excitedly, > attempting the Impediment Curse on a wasp that had buzzed into the > room and making it stop in midair." (GoF 608) > > Now who could it be? (Well, you should know me by now.) > > I've only noticed one character who is described in waspish terms. > > "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about the > Gryffindors . . .." (CoS 186) > > "`I am here on Dumbledore's orders,' said Snape, whose voice, by > contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish . . .." (OoP > 518) > > Too right you are, Baby. > > If anyone notices this adjective applied to another character, > please let me know. > > Talisman, who says, yes that's fangs and a stinger, for anyone who > is keeping count. I don't even want to hear what Freud has to say. Me: My theory is it is Ludo Bagman. He is alwasy described as walking around in his WILBORNE WASP UNIFORM. It would make sense that he was buzzing around Harry in the scene from GOF. Now, why would he be the wasp in the OWL exam scene in OOTP? Remember that Winky accuses him of being a bad dark wizard, and Harry see's him tried in the DD pensieve, but he got off. I think his bumbling characterization is just a deception for him still being a DE. IMHO it seems pertinent that he was flying around just before Harry had the Sirius/LV dream that upset Harry so. Bagman could have been spying for LV so as to let LV know when Harry was really tired therefore Vulnerable to LV controlling Harry's mind. Now, back to you! Fran From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 14:52:50 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:52:50 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Comment to Harry at the Ministry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78413 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slytherin_jenn" wrote: > I've been trying to make some sense of this ever since I first read > OoP and nothing has come to me yet. The scene right after the > ministry hearing where Malfoy is talking to Fudge and Harry and Mr. > Weasley see them, Malfoy says (p. 154 US version) "quite astonishing, > the way you continue to wriggle out of very tight > holes....*snakelike*, in fact(emphasis on snakelike by JKR)" I'm > wondering what this quote means & would love to hear your comments. > > Thanks for listening to my insomniac rambles. > > Jenn I think Lucious is just taunting Harry in front of Fudge. The snake- like comment is just referrring to LV. Harry really cant say anything as Fudge thinks he is a nutter, and does not believe LV is back. The interesting thing there is that Lucious is meeting with Fudge, and this rasises suspicions later on when Harry tells the group back at #12. Someone says we must notify DD about this. fran From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 15:08:50 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narcissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030822150850.1751.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78414 Lori wrote: I noticed the post about Narcissa being bad or good. And I just wanted to add to it rather then just reply to the message already on the board. We have not seen enough of her to really make a judgement in this manner, but what we have seen tends to show me that she is a more or less jealous of Harry. She is agreeing to raise Draco to be a little Death Eater, but I don't think she wants him to be. I think that she is leaning on the lines of, why couldn't I just sacrifice myself like Lily did for her son. It saved him from Voldemort. I don't believe she wants to put her son into danger but could not find a way out of it like Lily did. I do not believe that Draco will become a Death Eater, even though JKR is pointing in that direction. Maybe something will change in Draco by the 7th book making us all look or feel like damn we should have got that one. Maybe Draco will fall in love with someone who makes him act right. JKR told us we are liking Draco more then we should. But I don't think it's because he is going to become a Death Eater, I think it's because he is too self centered to try to ruin his pretty looks. And I think he gets that from Narcissa. Lori Now me: I think the verdict is still out on Draco. I think this whole mini deatheater thing is a redherring. I still maintain that he will turn good, how or why I do not know I just think he will. However, in regards to Narcissa. If she's such the moralistic person, then why is she married to Lucius. ~Melanie ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 15:15:18 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 08:15:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] years between books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030822151518.70308.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78415 Why is everyone saying that there is going to be a wait of several years before we get Book 6. Is this official or just wild guesswork, based on the time between Books 4 and 5? I understood that Book 6 was going to be much shorter than the two previous ones, so I hardly think a wait of years is likely. God, I hope not. especially as there probably WILL be a healthy gap between Books 6 and 7. Please say it isn't so. Sylvia My reply: I think it will be out in a little over a year, my reasoning for that is simple. JKR is ready to move on...she is going to finish the series and all that. The reason for the gap between four and five was mostly JKR's mental break down. That she has alluded to in the press. ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 15:17:56 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:17:56 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay: Ouroboros in HP? (Pretty long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78416 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" wrote: >>>The theory is that LV, after leaving Hogwarts, travels the world and gets steeped in the Dark Arts. (That part is canon). In the process, he comes across various prophecies written by Salazar Slytherin. They are full of anti-Muggle and Mudblood remarks and also foretell that there will be a Dark Lord (that LV recognizes as himself) who will be challenged by a boy. (This would explain why LV would later pay attention to a prophecy made by a fraud, SPT) If he kills the boy, he will become immortal.<<< ********** KathyK: I think that Voldemort's taking Trelawney's partial prophecy to heart (or whatever he has in its place) can be explained much more simply than that. The eavesdropper tells Voldemort the part of the prophecy that he overheard. Voldemort loves power and fears death. Upon hearing that there is someone out there with the potential to destroy or even kill him, he does everything he can to ensure that this child will not succeed. So he goes after Harry. Simple, and it doesn't involve all the headaches that time travel and extra prophecies create. The prophecy we have now is ambiguous enough without throwing more into the mix, I believe. Besides, we don't know the eavesdropper or Voldemort knows anything about Trelawney. How would they know she was a fraud? And even if they did find out, I don't think it would matter because Voldemort's fear of death runs deep and he wouldn't take any chances with a prophecy. ********** >>>LV, in the past, gradually regains his memory - after all, Harry isn't too good at it, and Lockhart did have some coming back.<<< ********** KathyK: Just an irrelevant question, but why wouldn't Harry be good at memory charms? And how do we know Lockhart's memory would come back at all if he'd had a proper wand at the time rather than Ron's busted one? Of course, Ron and Harry would be the ones in St Mungo's, but you know what I mean. Look at Bertha Jorkins. Crouch Sr. put such a strong memory charm on her that it permanently damaged her memory even though he was only out to destroy one memory. And Voldemort and Wormtail were only able to get at her missing memory by destroying the woman. ********** >>>Eventually he regains everything and writes prophecies about what happened in his past - others' future - to help his future self. His theory is that if his future self can defeat Harry, he will break the timeline that has occurred. After all, the prophecies had alrady been written by the time LV was born, and nothing can change that.<<< ********** KathyK: I love stories about time travel. It's just the logistics of it that give me a headache, making me think in circles. Like this, for instance. Lord Voldemort reads anti-muggle "prophecies" in the normal HP timeline that are attributed to Salazar Slytherin. In the meantime, he uses these prophecies to go after Harry when he hears Trelwaney's own prophecy about him. In the final battle, Harry obliviates him, or doesn't, and somehow sends him back 1000 years to the time of the Hogwarts founders where he becomes Salazar Slytherin. As Slytherin, he writes the "prophecies" that he himself read in the far future (but in his own past). I'm with you so far. He does this in an attempt to help himself to kill Harry before Harry has a chance to vanquish him like it says in Trelwaney's prophecy. And this is where I get completely lost and befuddled. Feel free to explain it to me. If Voldemort knows he's just going to end up back in the past, why does he write the "prophecies" at all? Why can't he change what he writes to say, "Don't kill the baby, wait until he's older," or something similar? I know, I know, they've already been written so they cannot be changed. But I just don't get it. How does he think writing the exact same thing will help him in the future? Why can't he write something different? Does he think the future Voldemort will interpret Slytherin's writing differently and be able to change the future/past? If he didn't change his fate, what makes him think his next self will? ********** >>>If Harry was dead, the only one that could vanquish the Dark Lord is gone, and LV would live forever.<<< ********** KathyK: Why can't he live forever beginning from Slytherin's time? He hasn't got Harry around to make life difficult. Or is it, as you say a little later, that he ceases to be Lord Voldemort because he's gone to a different time an assumed a different name. In that case, do we think Salazar Slytherin is still alive somewhere in Harry's time? Could he have taught himself some of the deep, dark, magic Voldemort learns? Your theory is interesting, I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around it. KathyK (who usually takes her time travel at face value when she has no ibuprophen with her) From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 15:26:34 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:26:34 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78417 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" > wrote: > > (Don't feel that you have to like Lupin less because of his > > cowardice, though. To me, this trait is actually endearing. It > makes > > him astonishingly human in my eyes, even though there's absolutely > no > > self-identification in this scene for me at all. > > > Marina > > I think the saving grace for Remus is that he's an emotional coward > rather than a physical one. We never see him cringing away from > pain or danger, or backing down from his enemies. It's his friends > he gives in to. (Thus proving Dumbledore's point about how it's > harder to stand up to your friends than to your enemies.) To me, at > least, it makes him come across as sympathetic and vulnerable rather > than despicable. Even as I strongly disapprove of many of the > things he's done, I sympathize even more strongly with the fear and > pain that led him to do them. > > Laura: We should distinguish between what Remus (this applies to James and Sirius and even Snape as well) was as a teenager and what hebecame as an adult. Remus may have been on the spineless side at school (at least toward J&S) but as an adult, he seems to me to carry a lot of moral authority. He never hesitates to stand up to adult!Sirius and he can keep such volatile personalities as Mad-eye, Tonks and Molly in line. We don't know what the course of events was that led Remus to evolve from a timid teen to a confident adult, but I wonder if it didn't have something to do with James and Lily's deaths. If he believed that Sirius was responsible, then he could have concluded that his failure to stand up and volunteer to be secret keeper despite his suspicions about Sirius contributed to their deaths. At that point, he must have done some very painful self-evaluation and decided that fighting LV was only one part of his moral responsibilities. He found in himself (belatedly, but better than never) what DD had known was there all along. I think he'd make a splendid headmaster. Of course, Snape's head would explode... From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 15:44:35 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:44:35 -0000 Subject: SPEW how do you do ? (was Re: SOCKS and other presents) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78418 Snos: >>>So why does Hermione think she can free the house elves? Maybe because (as its already been stated I know), the house elves are in service to all who live at Hogwarts (see Kitchen scenes in Book Four - the way the elves rush to do HRH's bidding and see to their comfort)? I guess its just one of JKR's mysterys left for all of us to debate on and on and on, and lets face it, what would this list be like if JKR explained everything to finest detail?<<< KathyK: This is also being discussed in the thread, "Hermione's Hats." I posted my thoughts on this very subject several hours ago. The more I think about it, the more sense it makes to me. Here is a snippet of my post: "What she's doing with the hats is symbolic of freeing them. She's trying to get the elves used to the idea of freedom. If the house- elves take the hats, in her mind it's a step in the right direction. If they were to begin wearing the hats, that would mean her message was getting through. "The house-elves also obviously know that Hermione's hat's won't free them. They're refusal to even clean Gryffindor Tower because of the hats is their way of telling her that she is wrong. They do not want freedom. They're house-elves. They're built to serve. Hermione is offending their sense of being with her actions." I base this on the assumption that in all Hermione's research into the enslavement and conditions of house-elves she learned exactly what freeing a house-elf entails, and probably knows what this means in terms of Hogwarts students. Hermione is a very careful and meticulous person when it comes to research. She reads everything she can on a subject. And since SPEW is so important to her, I find it unlikely that she's just confused or doesn't know how house-elf enslavement works. The house-elves abhor the very idea of freedom. Since clothing is the means to free the elves, Hermione knows she must do something to get the house-elves to see their condition. They may be well treated at Hogwarts, but in Hermione's book they're still slaves, forever working and never paid. Even if she cannot bring freedom to a house- elf's being, she hopes to bring freedom to its mind. And, as Snos mentioned but I snipped before thinking of adding this, it doesn't appear that just anyone can free a house-elf by looking at how Dobby was freed. It was Harry's sock and it was a mistake, but Malfoy was the one who gave Dobby the sock. Leaving hats and socks all over Gryffindor Tower may not be working, but at least Hermione is trying. Hope that makes some sense, KathyK From blackgold101 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 16:03:12 2003 From: blackgold101 at yahoo.com (Marci) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:03:12 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78419 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" > wrote: > > "Dave" wrote: > > > > > Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, she should only have > > > been petrified because of her glasses just as the camera and Nick > > > saved the other two. > > > > > > > Justin : Nick took the full blast of the deadly gaze, Justin > received > > only what went through Nick. > > > > Hermione and Penelope : the mirror reflected back to them only a > part > > of the energy coming from the Basilisk's eyes. > > > > Myrtle : glasses do reflect and deflect light a bit, but really > not > > much, so that most of the energy went directly into Myrtle's eyes. > > > > Del > > Snape here: > > The camera in question is a single lense reflex, meaning the image > is bounced off a mirror then to the view finder (eye piece), so a > mirror saved Creevy (sp?). Myrtle took the full blast as her > glasses did not reflect the image into her eyes. The reason Cedric > survived was that Nick is partialy alive and absorbed some of the > dark magic. I believe if you were on one side of a window and a > basilisk (sp?) was on the other and you looked at it's eyes, you > would be toast. A clear window bends light, but it may not do > anything to dark magic. A mirror is backed in silver, and silver > does have some magical properties, it's use against vampires, > werewolves, etc. So it could be because of the silver used in the > mirrors that saved the two girls and Colin. Sorry for the ramble, > my doc said I should be the poster child for adult ADD, and I have a > hard time staying congruient (sp?). > > Severus "where's my adderall?" Snape Remove Cedric, insert Justin. And Nick being 'partially alive'? I thought ghost=totally dead. But, anywho, it could have been his phosporic/protoplasmic ghostly makeup that spared Justin from the full blast. Marci From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 16:06:41 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:06:41 -0000 Subject: SOCKS and other presents -Elf Guide In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78420 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jesmck" wrote: > > and now me (Jessica) > If Harry gave Dobby socks and Ron gave him a jumper, wouldn't Dobby > be free? And, if the reason these gifts didn't free him is because > Harry and Ron aren't his master, then why is Hermione making all of > those hats for the other house elves? bboy_mn: Everything you ever wanted to know aobut house-elves but didn't know who to ask. House-Elves & the Tie That Binds. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71752 Near the end of this post (#71752) are several paragraphs on Hermione's misguided efforts to free the Hogwart's house-elves. Just a thought. bboy_mn From sandyluppino at comcast.net Fri Aug 22 16:30:06 2003 From: sandyluppino at comcast.net (sjlupin) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:30:06 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78421 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" wrote: > Sachmet wrote: > Aside - was JKR taking a risk in giving Lupin such an unappealing > negative trait? There's no questioning the fact that cowardice is > less likeable than hot-headedness, recklessness and a tendency to > show off. It certainly increased *my* affection for Lupin, but how > about other readers? Me: I may be in a minority too, but I found Remus' depiction in the Pensieve and JKRs showing of his weaknesses quite endearing. the hot- headnedness, reacklessness nad showing off is a big turn off to me. But showing this vulnerable side of Remus only made me adore him more. I agree wholeheartedly that he was wrong and should have made them stop - he obviously didn't like what they were doing, but I feel a great deal of understanding and empathy for what was probably going through his head. And when I reread the Shrieking Shack scene and heard him admit in what I picture as a pained voice and expression that he had been cowardly and wrong, it was even more affective to me. No one is perfect. Not a single human on the face of the planet. I do feel like as an adult Remus understands his faults and tries to come to terms with them, which is more than I can say for alot of the adult humans I know! :) sjlupin -- Lupin for Headmaster!!! --- I personally would *LOVE* to see Snapes hissy fit if THAT happened!!! From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 16:47:09 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:47:09 -0000 Subject: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78422 > Talisman wrote: > >Debates about the Sorting Hat blossom and subside on this site, with > >the regularity of the seasons. I haven't followed a Sorting Hat > >thread lately, > > >And, of course, we know the Hat would have been happy to put Harry > >in Slytherin. > > Margaret: > I actually have a theory on this (see post #76525 for the whole > thing, *I* think it's interesting ;-) The gist of which is that the > hat, with its sneaky little sense of humour, was not going to put > Harry in Slytherin HOUSE. It commented on the fact that he didn't > want to be in Slytherin, and then said : > > "You could be great you know, it's all here in your head, and > Slytherin will help you on you way to greatness, no doubt about > that." (SS-paperback) > ->>snipped<<- now Shirley: I don't have CoS with me, but I just re-read it last weekend. You are correct with your 'semi-quote' about what the Sorting Hat said to Harry when he was sorted. However, later in CoS, when Harry is in Dumbledore's office and puts the Hat on again, the hat says - something to the effect of - it stands by what it said, he would have *done well in Slytherin* (emphasis mine). This stood out to me, because I was happily laboring under the impression that the hat, during the sorting, was telling Harry that Slytherin would help him, but that he didn't have to be *in* that house. So, I think the Hat *was* saying it would put Harry in Slytherin HOUSE>. Also, I'm not sure that Harry has ever told any of his friends about either of those exchanges with the Hat.... Shirley, who really needs to get back to work, but keeps getting pulled back to see what the next posts will say.... From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 17:11:19 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:11:19 -0000 Subject: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78423 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > > Talisman wrote: > > >Debates about the Sorting Hat blossom and subside on this site, > with > > >the regularity of the seasons. I haven't followed a Sorting Hat > > >thread lately, > > > > >And, of course, we know the Hat would have been happy to put Harry > > >in Slytherin. > > > > Margaret: > > I actually have a theory on this (see post #76525 for the whole > > thing, *I* think it's interesting ;-) The gist of which is that > the > > hat, with its sneaky little sense of humour, was not going to put > > Harry in Slytherin HOUSE. It commented on the fact that he didn't > > want to be in Slytherin, and then said : > > > > "You could be great you know, it's all here in your head, and > > Slytherin will help you on you way to greatness, no doubt about > > that." (SS-paperback) > > > > ->>snipped<<- > > now Shirley: > I don't have CoS with me, but I just re-read it last weekend. You > are correct with your 'semi-quote' about what the Sorting Hat said to > Harry when he was sorted. However, later in CoS, when Harry is in > Dumbledore's office and puts the Hat on again, the hat says - > something to the effect of - it stands by what it said, he would have > *done well in Slytherin* (emphasis mine). This stood out to me, > because I was happily laboring under the impression that the hat, > during the sorting, was telling Harry that Slytherin would help him, > but that he didn't have to be *in* that house. So, I think the Hat > *was* saying it would put Harry in Slytherin HOUSE>. > > Also, I'm not sure that Harry has ever told any of his friends about > either of those exchanges with the Hat.... > > Shirley, who really needs to get back to work, but keeps getting > pulled back to see what the next posts will say.... Severus here: the section of book you are talking about is quite misleading in my opinion. Harry starts out by saying that the hat was wrong, does he mean that he thinks he belongs in the Slytherin house and was not suppose to be in Gryffindohr? And the had says it stands by it's choice, and but says he would have done well in Slytherin, it is slightly misleading. Harry asks DD about his own doubts of being in the right house, and DD replies only a true Gryff could have pull the sword out of the hat. Does that mean Harry was saying the hat was wrong for putting him in G or that it was wrong for suggesting S? Nothing seems to suggest either, and we are left wondering, maybe another of JKR's rather misty things that may be used later for some kind of confirmation? And remember DD says we are defind by the choices we make. And Harry chose not to go into Slytherin. Severus "Gothic Nutter" Snape From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 17:22:18 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:22:18 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78424 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scoutmom21113" > > wrote: > > party) / > > > > > EVENT > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------- --- > -- > > > > > Book 6: Unveiling the veil > > >> > > > And a couple more: > > > Book 6: Lucius Malfoy gets out of Azkaban and causes problems (id > > > you really think he would stay put??) > > > Book 7: We find out what happens to the survivors. > > > > > > me: > > Don't forget: > > Book 6: Harry misunderstands Snape's actions > > Book 6: Harry blames Snape > > Book 7: Harry misunderstands Snape's action > > Book 7: Harry blames Snape > > > > and yes I read the suggestion that Harry learns Snape's secret. > What > > I didn't see was: > > Book 6: Harry *gives* a schnitt. > > > > > > Melpomene who is hoping the next 2 books *do* offer a couple of > > surprises. > > ADD IN: > *How about Harry learns Snapes secret from Hermione who has known > along but sworn to secrecy. > *We finally find out who was kissing Florence and why it is > important, if it's important at all. > *More about Luna, and her role in helping Harry. > *and my favorite, even though people strongly disagree, it how deep > Fudge is in with LV. > Fran I agree with Fran on the Fudge and LV thing. ADD IN: book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. Severus From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 22 17:39:00 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:39:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Where was Snape References: <1061502221.14105.23215.m7@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003901c368d4$463f12c0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 78425 Talisman: >Talisman, who's putting her Galleons down on Snape for Defense >Against Dark Arts Master in Book 6. And I do mean Master. I don't usually post on Snape threads but Talisman's comments reminded me about something I've been musing about. JMR has said somewhere something about the key to the story being in the books but no one having picked it up and run with it. It struck me that there is one element that's mentioned in all the books but just passed over is the issue about Snape wanting the DADA post. Before OoP we had a degree of consensus that this was just urban myth among the students but we now know it's not. Only thing I can't see is how his appointment would take the story forward (after all, we've already had a leading bad guy in the post in GoF). Unless it's tied in with more information about Snape's murkier bits. For example, just what did he get up to as a DE? Did his hatred of James Potter lead him to do serious killing? Is that what happened to Harry's grandparents? And how James and Lily came to be part of the fight against Voldemort? Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From shirley2allie at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 17:44:21 2003 From: shirley2allie at hotmail.com (Shirley) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:44:21 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78426 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > ADD IN: > book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. > > Severus Shirley: That would be *too* weird! Not to mention, very "Dallas" (and I didn't even watch that show). Come to think of it, it would be pretty sad, too. What made you come up with that one? Shirley From bricken at terramail.pl Fri Aug 22 17:45:29 2003 From: bricken at terramail.pl (Ev vy) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:45:29 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78427 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sjlupin" > And when I reread the Shrieking Shack scene and > heard him admit in what I picture as a pained voice and expression > that he had been cowardly and wrong, it was even more affective to > me. No one is perfect. Not a single human on the face of the planet. > I do feel like as an adult Remus understands his faults and tries to > come to terms with them, which is more than I can say for alot of the > adult humans I know! :) > > sjlupin *delurking* Frankly, I disagree with the opinion that anything that Lupin did was done out of cowardice. I think that what motivated him (and still does) is his self-preservation and also a very strong sense of pragmatism. He's very well aware of his shortcomings, i.e. irresponsibility, sheer stupidity, inaction. And he's also well aware that given his knowledge as an adult, he would have reacted differently. Or maybe not. In 'Snape's Worst Memory' we see Lupin's inaction. He doesn't use his Prefect privileges to stop his friends from bullying Snape. Is he a coward? I don't think so. Neither in PoA, nor in OotP Lupin struck me as a coward. Quite the contrary, Lupin exudes authority in both books. He has this quiet, strong manner that allows him to take over the control over the situation. Naturally, as an adult he can see the cruelty of those events. What thay'd done to Snape was really unforgivable, and he might regret that he didn't stop it in time. But I wouldn't say he was afraid to act. Think of Ron. Ron doesn't act against his brothers, although he has the authority. Would you call him a coward? I wouldn't. I think both Lupin and Ron share a very strong sense of loyalty. Lupin is very loyal to his friends, so he simply won't go against them. As Ron won't go against his family. I'm sure that a counter-argument to this would be Neville's behaviour in SS/PS. The problem is that Neville isn't really the Trio's friend. Neville feels loyal to Gryffindor, but not to the Trio. Whereas Lupin formed a much stronger bond with the remaining three Marauders to be concerned solely about them. As for regretting what they did to Snape. Lupin certainly feels that the humiliation was something they could've spared Snape. And he might regret his decisions, but even with his current knowledge, if it were to happen again, it would happen exactly the same, or with little alteration. Lupin feels the wrongness of his actions, he regrets that Sirius put Snape in danger in the Shrieking Shack, he understand that Snape's hate runs deeply. But I don't think he's repentant of he or his friends did. Why? One, too many fond memories are connected with that period, and actually admitting that they were wrong would undermine the importance of those memories. Two, Lupin provokes Snape in PoA. The Boggart incident is nothing else than taunting. Three, when Harry asks about Snape's memory, Lupin says that he didn't have guts to go against his friends. In the Shrieking Shack he explains that he was afraid to tell Dumbledore about Sirius being an Animagus. Yes, start shouting at me, Lupin was a coward. I'll tell you, I think not. It's simply a very handy explanation. It's much easier to say 'I was a coward' than to say 'I wanted to see my old friend again' (Lupin very easily accepts Sirius's truth in PoA) or 'I really didn't care about Snape, I cared about my friends'. As I said, Lupin is a pragmatist. Not a coward, but someone who labelled himself as one. As I read Lupin (and it's only my very own pragmatic and very cynical interpretation), I think he's even more human as a self- preserving pragmatist, than as a coward. A coward would be ultimately unable to stand against anything or anyone (vide Pettigrew). A pragmatist would take a calculated risk. Especially if he formed a strong bond with someone. I don't know how many of you remember Highlander The Series. But Lupin resembles the character of Methos very much. And I'd call neither of them a coward. Ev vy *back to lurking* PS As for Lupin being a Headmaster, I think that he prefers life in a shadow rather than in a spotlight. Although, I think he possesses the natural power that Dumbledore has. Only to a lesser degree. From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 22 17:53:05 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:53:05 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Avery, Snape, Florence and a little bit of Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78428 Amy was still on the beach surrounded by driftwood trying to comfort poor Avery. No one seemed very interested in him, not after OotP, not after the Fourth Man HoverCraft had been blown to pieces by the brother-in-law of that dead sexy Mrs Lestrange. "It could be worse Avery, it really could have been." Amy sighed. "Look at me, I had this whole "Sirius Black is Ever So Evil" plot twist all written out in my head. I was convinced he was going to be the one who would betray the side of light and that it wouldn't be discovered until to late in book seven. And what does he do, Sirius goes and kicks the bucket, or rather passes through the black veil. In fact I may just post it up in off-topic as I have it all written out anyway." Avery didn't look at all impressed at Amy's attempt at empathy and turned away sulkily. He began muttering something about useless theorising and giving secondary characters false hope for future books. "Let's get back to you and this Hover Craft though." Amy said cheerfully, ignoring the dark looks from Avery. "The news really isn't as bad as it seems you know. There is the fact that you still exist unlike that dead sexy "Florence Lestrange". And, Avery, I do have some very good news for you, in fact. The main founding cannon for you ship seems to be very well intact." Avery looked confused and wrinkled his nose. "Look I'll show you," Amy stood up and walked down the beach a little way bent down and began to drag a cannon back to where Avery still sat, head in hands. There was a long piece of parchment attached and Amy quickly scanned down it. "Ah ha! Here we go." Elkins in message 35062 >So. JKR *wants* us to notice Avery. She wants him to be rooted in our minds. And yet -- and this is >an important point, so you there in the back: pay attention! -- she never actually shows us his *face.* >He is masked in the graveyard scene, and no hint is even given as to his overall body type. We -- or, >more to the point, *Harry* -- would be able to walk right past him on the street and not recognise >him. "This, " Amy exclaimed, "this is the main cannon point that allowed you to became the fourth man in the first place. We do not know what you look like, what your voice (when you are not screaming in terror that is) sounds like nor your general body shape. You could be anyone we have met or heard of in cannon or at least heard of." "So what if you are not the fourth man, cannon was shaky on that point anyway. As far as I can see the whole thing depend on the bleeding hearts of the wizarding world to set you free after Crouch had fallen from power and some of his old cases were re-examined." "The same bleeding heart nation that has produced Granny Longbottem. The woman who tells her own grandson to be proud of his parents and probably hopes that Neville will avenge their state of existence "But lets look at what you actually do in OoP," Amy said brightly. Avery tried to turn away to continued to sulk but Amy grabbed his arm. With a flourish Amy produced the huge book from a tiny pocket and flipped it open to page 516. "Here we go. I'm not sure if you are mentioned anywhere else in cannon but this was the only canon I remember: *** "Avery told me Bode would be able to remove it" (Harry-mort) ... "Very well...you may go. Send Avery to me." (Harry-mort) ... "No - everyone's fine -" gasped Harry, whose forehead felt as though it were on fire. "Well ...Avery isn't...he's in trouble.. he gave the wrong information...Voldemorts really angry." ... Harry's scar began to burn; he bit hard on his pillow to stop himself making a noise. Somewhere he knew Avery was being punished. *** "You are the one who Voldemort listens to when you say that Bode can collect the prophecy when being controlled by Malfoy. You clearly know where and how the prophecies are kept in the Department of Mysteries but do not know that only those whom the prophecy concerns can pick it up. It is very convenient however Harry-mort decides to take a quick peak in the mirror and real!Harry wakes up before you actually come to your master. But Harry knows that you are being tortured Avery. "I am getting very suspicious of your "almost" appearing act. I don't think you turn up in the end battle, you might be there you might not cannon is unclear. There were about 12 death eaters but only four are mentioned: Mr Malfoy, Mrs Lestrange, Dolohov and McNair. You are not mentioned, no one calls your name or points you out. Harry is rather more concerned with Bella for the whole battle, even before she does any killing. I can smell a very twisted little crush from here, she is dead sexy after all." "That however is all in the past and we need to find a new purpose for you in future books. There was enough cannon to ensure you are an important character. At least one containing an important bit of information for plot twist reasons anyway. You are pointed out specifically in books four and five. What we need is something to connect you to the plot...or someone." Amy looked up the bay and Avery followed her gaze. Suddenly his face darkened. He looked sullenly up to the bay where their eyes alighted on the tavern, George's tavern. "I know, I know, I think George is becoming a little too smug about the fact that his pub is still standing as well." Amy sighed. "It's true that there was very good odds that his bar would be crushed by Hurricane Jo and Cindy would chase George out of the bay with her Big Paddle(TM) but amazingly he survived. Not a hope for the future books though. Especially if, sorry I mean when, you turn up again. "You see I have this theory that our dear Severus is going to do something terrible in the next book. He is going to do something gut wrenchingly, vomit inducing-ly vile; but it wont even make him blink. And I think what ever Snape does is going to sicken Harry to his very soul and force Snape to have the conversation to him about the terrible things people do in war for the greater good. I can see a scene where Snape forces information from some captured Death Eater by torture and shows just what a truly awful Death Eater he used to be. This heinous act...well...it will be to you." Avery looked absolutely terrified. Snape after him. The Snape after him. Avery swallowed, sure Snape wasn't much good in an ambush, that was clear from school, but give him an inch... Where have we seen a competent Snape: in the Duelling Club, at the shrieking shack. Both of which scenes he has the upper hand. Sure Snape might have grown out of being bested by a couple of stuck up Gryfindors but really sit someone down in front of him and he could probably do something much worse than what happened to the Longbottems. And I'm not talking about Avada Kedavera people. Avery looks wildly around almost expecting Snape to ambush him there and then. "Which means I had better go and visit the tavern properly before book seven comes out. I would have dragged you in there already but I'm not sure of the licensing laws of fictional areas and I left my fake id in my other trousers." Amy seemed to realise that Avery's knuckles that were half buried in the sand were not usually that white and put a reassuring hand on his shoulder. "No, well perhaps we will give you another role. No one seems that bothered with you, but I have a feeling that you might become important in the future. And as long as no one is around to argue I can spin theories and no one shall disturb me by pointing out gapping holes in my theory and flinging around those yellow flags." Avery looked around hoping that Amy was not about to theorise any more torture for him. "I think we should try and pin another character for you to be. Someone who we have heard of before someone who doesn't have a name but does have a role. Someone who we haven't even met but has had theorists convinced of their importance in the plot stories of the future. Someone who has received more speculation than that sudden movement or god damm gleam." Amy smirked and pulled out her wand. "Accio cannon." A large cannon was flying through the air. Avery, alarmed, dived for cover but Amy sat there in silence as the canon landed with a soft phwomf on the sand. *** "He put a hex on me Professor Dumbledore, and I was only teasing him, sir, I only said I'd seen him kissing Florence behind the greenhouses last Thursday..." ** "Lets have a look at the facts shall we - this wont take long as there are shockingly few concerning you or the mysterious Florence. We know you were in Slytherin and most probably a pureblood, or at least a halfblood, and you hung out in a gang of other Slytherins. It is not stated what house Florence is but for this theory let's say she did not reside in the mighty house of the snake. You had a crush on her, didn't you Avery. Of course your relationship had to be kept completely secret but you did meet behind the greenhouses for some secret meetings, you are a sneaky little Slytherin after all. "Dumbledore, being the all knowing headmaster at the time, was overjoyed to see a Slytherin forming a "friendship" with anyone outside their own house. Unfortunately Bertha followed you one day, even if she didn't and just put two and two together, she began to tease you didn't she. This was a problem, you did not want to be seen as breaking away from the group. You did not want to be seen to have a crush on someone from out side your own house or, Merlin forbid, a muggleborn. Being a Slytherin you had to shut this wide mouthed girl up, but you didn't succeed did you "Yup, it was definitely you behind those greenhouses. At least I always had my doubts about it being Severus or Sirius. The trouble was that was the end of the relationship and you submersed yourself in dark dealings with the rest of the Slytherins. You had to convince those who you shared a dorm with that you wanted nothing to do with those other houses. Florence wanted you back of course, perhaps being a brave Gryffindor and all but you, being a cowardly Slytherin, wanted nothing more to do with the poor girl and just wanted a quiet life with the Slytherins. In fact there was this guy going about that all your "friends" seemed interested in joining. He seemed all right and he would offer you the chance to show the rest of the house just how loyal you were to them rather than that muggle lover Dumbledore. What was his name again? Lord Something? "Poor Avery, you're not exactly tough and steely are you." I also noticed back in the fourth man post 38342 this little idea; >7) Backstabbing Fourth Man: >Now. How do you think the Longbottom's Cruciators were caught, huh? Ahhh, that's right. Clever >Grownup. Got it in one. Avery pulled a Pettigrew. He turned them in. That's how he got off light, you >understand. Cut a deal with the Ministry. Now this could work with the smallest amount of tweeking. Avery fingers the pensieve four and gets off as he being the small fish helping catch the big ones. We do know that he wormed his way out of trouble after all and lets face it Mrs Lestrange is a pretty big fish. "Things could be a whole lot worse. I wasn't around when the great memory charm symposium took place. I did take a time turner and have a look back at it though. Somewhere near the back. Unfortunately it now looks to me that Neville has had no memory charm and just lacks confidence. Now it looks like that Neville could turn out to be tough and steely after all." Avery still did not look very happy. Amy sighed, he did look a little better than when she first sat down but then again she had suggested that Snape was after him and that was enough for anyone to consider their mortality. Perhaps Avery never was truly happy, ever and just tended to sulk. No wonder thought Amy as she looked over the broken hovercraft. "You know Avery, we might have enough for a kayak. We might just. Looks like it will be just me and you though." Amy sighed and pulled out a second bit of parchment and taped it to one of the larger pieces of debris. A description of Avery after the first downfall of Voldemort: >Elkins message 35062 >Traumatised, twitchy, and Having Had Quite Enough Of *That*, Thank You Very Much, Avery then >goes home to live in his mother's basement, where he takes up coin-collecting. He never pursues a >visible or prestigious career, stays as far away from the public eye as he can manage, and whenever >he gets an owl from one of his old DE comrades, scrawls "Return To Sender" hastily onto the outside >of the envelope and owls it right back unopened. >More to the point, he never makes the slightest effort to seek out Voldemort. Like I said, Avery Has >Had Enough. Amy who did not mean for this post to be so long but the soft spot, or rather, the dark and cobwebed corner of her mind for Avery may be a might larger than she first appreciated ~*~ "Dad has always had a soft spot for Muggles," said George "Yeah, a soft spot in his head," replied Fred. From shokoono at gmx.de Fri Aug 22 17:45:03 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:45:03 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? References: Message-ID: <007701c368d7$70eb1de0$7ef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78429 D: > > Has anyone ever thought that perhaps Snape cultivated that look? It > certainly would put people off from getting too close to him. His > appearance makes the first impression. He wears all black. He is > forbiding in his mannerisms. And his behavior in his class on > Harry's first day there would certainly seem to tell the students to > back off. > > I think that his appearance is to be equated with the "gothic" look > that is popular among kids now. When Harry stared into the pensieve > he witnessed some of Snape's early childhood. Seems to me that Snape > was as neglected as Harry, but instead of taking the road that Harry > is, he turned to the Dark Arts, and to put people off from getting > too close for comfort, adopted his look. > > Greasy looking hair doesn't necessarily mean poor hygene. > > As Linda Richman would say, I'm ferklempt (sorry about the spelling), > discuss... > Me: This is a good shot and Snape being some kind of wizardy goth came into my mind very quickly. If I had to give him some muggle-clothes I would shurely make him a goth, because that's what matches him most! The short step into his psychology is a good way to explain why he does cultivate this look. I am a little into goth myself and I know some real ones. It seems to me that they are always people that had at least one very bad experience in their past (and I mean really bad!!!). So of course Snape is one to me that also had a bad past and thogh he came over it (at least so far to be able to live a life thats not too much messed up), but it all shaped his character and made him what he is now: a wounded soul that doesn't want anybody to come too close to him. Maybe exept fore DD, I think he could be some kind of father for him as James was a brother to Sirius. This is my oppinion about Snape's reason to dress so (no matter if he is a vamipre/dhampire or not) Yours Finchen From shokoono at gmx.de Fri Aug 22 17:58:22 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:58:22 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Waspy Snape References: Message-ID: <007801c368d7$71a28700$7ef3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78430 > Talisman, reviewing her field-guide to insects, notes: > > Many people seem to like the "Dumbledore means Bumblebee so he's the > wasp" idea. Me? I say the fact that a Lily is a plant doesn't > support the idea that Pottermum is the _Mimbulus mimbletonia_. > > Still I agree that the buzzing wasp that distracts Harry, as he is > slipping into his ultimate Legilimency moment, is significant. (OoP > 725) > > And I think we've seen that wasp before. > > > Now who could it be? (Well, you should know me by now.) > > I've only noticed one character who is described in waspish terms. > > "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about the > Gryffindors . . .." (CoS 186) > > "`I am here on Dumbledore's orders,' said Snape, whose voice, by > contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish . . .." (OoP > 518) > > Too right you are, Baby. > > If anyone notices this adjective applied to another character, > please let me know. > > Talisman, who says, yes that's fangs and a stinger, for anyone who > is keeping count. I don't even want to hear what Freud has to say. > Me: I am sorry to disagree. I have the Germand copy and ot the books and if it would be so important as you suggest, it would have been in there too, wouldn't it? I more think it has a double meaning (one "real" and one figurative), because something like that in German would sound very odd. For it isn't there and nothing that comes close to it that suggests a wasp I don't think Snape is a wasp or has any other relation to it than using it in his potions. Yours Finchen From eberte at vaeye.com Fri Aug 22 18:01:48 2003 From: eberte at vaeye.com (ellejir) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:01:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78431 Doriane wrote: > > her reasoning why that power is *hope* and not *love*> > - Harry possesses lots of that power, and Voldemort none : I agree > that Voldemort doesn't love, but I don't see Harry as being so full > of love. He's full of many emotions, but love doesn't strike me as > one of the most prominent ones. > > So what could that power be ? I'm not sure, but one possibility > would be Hope. Not just hope that I'll get rich tomorrow, but Hope > that things will turn out all right in the end. A Hope bordering on > Faith, to use a Christian terminology. > Me: Your idea is very interesting, but I'm not sure that I would agree that Voldemort is without hope (although *his* idea of things "turning out all right in the end" is certainly very different from ours or Harry's.) *Something* sustained Voldemort during all those years when he was half dead and without a body of his own. In fact, if I am not mistaken, at the end of GoF he uses the word "hope" himself in the graveyard scene when describing what happened after Harry defeated him over the Sorcerer's stone and he had to abandon Quirrel's body ("I confess, I almost lost hope"--or something to that effect, I don't have the book right here at work.) I tend to think that Harry's power is love, in the sense of *compassion*. The scene in which he offers to help Luna find her lost belongings--with his own grief over Sirius still so raw-- demonstrates Harry's great ability to feel for others. He even feels compassion for *Snape* after seeing the scene in the pensieve. I do not think that Voldemort has one drop of compassion or empathy for others. He sneers at his own DE's, at Harry, at Ginny and at his own mother and father. Doriane again: > > it is a power more wonderful and more terrible than death: > love is more wonderful than death, all right, but more terrible ?? > Me: Love can be "more terrible than death" in the sense of the pain it can cause when a loved one suffers or is lost. Many people would rather die themselves than have a child or beloved spouse die. The pain that Harry is feeling at the end of OoP is due to love of Sirius and that loss, not loss of hope. I certainly agree that loss of hope is a terrible thing as well. Elle It contains a force that is at once more wonderful and > more terrible than death, than human intelligence, than the forces of > nature. It is also, perhaps, the most mysterious of the many subjects > for study that reside there. It is the power held within that room > that you possess in such quantities and which Voldemort has not at > all. That power took you to save Sirius tonight. That power also > saved you from possession by Voldemort, because he could not bear to > reside in a body so full of the force he detests. In the end, it > mattered not that you could not close your mind. It was your heart > that saved you.' > > Can you see how the word "love", or anything else for that matter, is > not mentioned a single time ? Knowing JKR the way we know her, that > should signal "Beware ! Trap !" We all think of love right away, and > I think this is *precisely* what she *wants* us to think of ! But she > never ever mentions it. So I think that power is not love at all. > > Let's see : > > -it's a power that is so special that the room where it is studied > has to be locked at all times : why would anyone want to keep people > out of the Love room ? In my idea, it should even be a room where > everyone should be made to go once in a while : it would make the > world a much nicer place :-) > > - it's a mysterious power > > > - it's the power that took Harry to save Sirius : it isn't love in > itself that made Harry go to the MoM, but his desire to help him, his > hope to save him. > > - it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't reside in a body > full of it : Voldemort doesn't hate love. He doesn't understand it, > he despises it, but he doesn't hate it. > > You see : > > -it's a power that is so special that the room where it is studied > has to be locked at all times : remember what happens to people when > they are faced with the Mirror of Erised ? They get fascinated by it. > Some even waste their whole life away looking into it. I think it > would be the same with a Hope room : people would get trapped into > it, because they would feel so much hope in it, that the outside > world would seem unbearably desperate to them. > > - it is a power more wonderful and more terrible than death : because > he's got this hope of seeing Sirius again when he dies, Harry is > ready to sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort. As such, it is more > wonderful than death. But for other people who hope for what they > can't ever obtain, it is more terrible than death, but it makes them > live an excruciating nightmare every single day of their lives. > > - it's a mysterious power : why do many people hope for things when > everything seems to tell them those things will never come true, that > is a mystery indeed. > > - Harry possesses lots of that power, and Voldemort none : Harry > always had a lot of hope, he keeps thinking he can get out of the > trickiest and deadliest situations and that something will happen to > turn a desperate situation around. That's why he's always trying, > always acting, because he's got this hope that in the end things will > turn out right if he gives his best. But LV doesn't have any Hope. > He's got small desires, for sure, but no real hope for anything. He > wants what he knows he can obtain, but he doesn't have any hope for a > better life. > > - it's the power that took Harry to save Sirius : as I already said, > it was his hope to save Sirius that took Harry all the way to the > MoM. He kept hoping against reason that Sirius was still alive and > that he, Harry, would somehow free him from Voldemort. > > - it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't reside in a body > full of it : it was the joy Harry felt at the idea of seeing Sirius > again that kicked LV out of Harry's body. And that joy came from that > deep hope that Harry nurtured, that the people who go through the > veil are still alive somewhere somehow. Moreover, Hope is the worst > enemy of any tyrant : as long as people keep hoping that things can > get better, they can't be crushed. They can be isolated, tortured, or > whatever, as long as they have hope, they keep fighting. So for > someone like Voldemort, Hope would be the worst feeling people can > feel, because it keeps them fighting against him, no matter how > powerful he gets. > > So what do you think ? Am I completely off-track or what ? Shoot > away ! > > Del From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 22 18:12:03 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:12:03 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Ouroboros References: <1061554335.15903.70375.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <006601c368d8$e3ff7460$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 78432 say543: > LV loses his memory, and wanders aimlessly around the room, eventually > landing in a sort of time machine that sends him back about a thousand > years. (We don't know exactly what everything in the Time Room is, and > there being a Time machine would be probable. The time turner cabinet > could possibly fill this role. Also, the whole "obliviate" deal is not First thing I wonder about is that the time turner cabinet doesn't seem to work that way - the DE that got in the way of it didn't physically disappear back in time (not even his head...), just got younger. > LV, in the past, gradually regains his memory - after all, Harry isn't > too good at it, and Lockhart did have some coming back. He is > recognized as a very strong wizard and becomes a part of the Hogwarts > Founding Four - Slytherin. As he regains his anti-Muggle beliefs he Second thing I wonder about is, given the physical changes that have happened to Voldemort, by what means he would have become a close friend of Godric Gryffindor before the Founding? doesn't say much for Godric's taste in friends! But I do like the concept of a corpus of "Salazarian" writings. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 18:40:06 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:40:06 -0000 Subject: years between books In-Reply-To: <20030822151518.70308.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78433 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > Why is everyone saying that there is going to be a > wait of several years before we get Book 6 ... > > Sylvia > > My reply: I think it will be out in a little over a > year, ... > > The reason for the gap between four and five was > mostly JKR's mental break down. > > Melanie Black bboy_mn: Mental breakdown? I don't remember hearing about that. I thought the reason the last book took so long was because of all the distractions and outside demands on her time; book signings, personal appearances, interviews, promotional tours, movie premiers, charity benefits, fame, plus the changes in her personal life (although, I'm amazed she has time for a personal life) like her marriage and new born child. I suspect now that things are somwhat back to normal, she should be able to spend more time writing. I know in a couple of interviews she said she already had a good start on book 6, so I'm agreeing with everyone else; new book in a year to a year and a half. ...or at least, that's what I'm hoping for. just a thought. bboy_mn From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 18:42:48 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:42:48 -0000 Subject: Waspy Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78434 > > Me: > My theory is it is Ludo Bagman. He is alwasy described as walking > around in his WILBORNE WASP UNIFORM. It would make sense that he was > buzzing around Harry in the scene from GOF. > Now, why would he be the wasp in the OWL exam scene in OOTP? Remember > that Winky accuses him of being a bad dark wizard, and Harry see's > him tried in the DD pensieve, but he got off. I think his bumbling > characterization is just a deception for him still being a DE. IMHO > it seems pertinent that he was flying around just before Harry had > the Sirius/LV dream that upset Harry so. Bagman could have been > spying for LV so as to let LV know when Harry was really tired > therefore Vulnerable to LV controlling Harry's mind. > Now, back to you! > Fran Mlle: This would fit in perfectly with something I found just yesterday. :gets out handy dandy Latin Dictionary: Ludo- to play, sport; to play at or with; to imitate, banter, decieve delude. And a related word: Ludio- an actor No sir, our Mr. Bagman is certainly not the bumbling but lovable character he appears to be. He is certainly quite waspish... Mlle Bienvenu From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 18:46:15 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:46:15 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78435 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > ADD IN: > > book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. > > > > Severus > > Shirley: > That would be *too* weird! Not to mention, very "Dallas" (and I > didn't even watch that show). > > Come to think of it, it would be pretty sad, too. > > What made you come up with that one? > > Shirley Snape here: The first book had Harry dreaming of being free, and then he was for part of the time. He even woke up the next day thinking that he had had the most wonderful dream of being a wizard. The other books seem to have some dream reference in them at one time or another, in CoS it is the Tom Riddle memory sequence, Harry had found himself on his bed lying back after he was through with the memory. In PoA doesn't he have a dream of the grim (AKA Sirius)? And Ootp his dreams are the source of much pain and eventually the cause of Sirius' death. In GoF the book opens with Harry dreaming the death of a muggle, but he didn't see it through the eyes of LV, it was as if he was standing there with everyone else. He saw Peter, the old man, Nagini, and LV as Peter turned the chair around. HMMM? I thought he was seeing through LV's eyes for the rest of the book. Kind of interesting, never noticed that before. The reason I came up with that one is, truthfully, it just came to me. If you have ever seen the movie Wisdom with Emilio Esteves and Demi Moore, the whole movie is a imagined reality and at the end after everone is killed, the main character sits up in his bed and starts his day, just as the movie started. And yes, I think it would be very sad, but an ending that no one would see coming. But I really hope it doesn't go that way, I like to think that JKR's reality in her books is real in the books, not a fevered dream of a child that is caught in a hopeless living situation. Severus From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 18:54:31 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:54:31 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78436 Mlle: Actually, I believe JKR answered the question of 'is it all a dream?' in an interview she did. (sorry I can't remember which one, anyone want do give me a Point Me?) Her reply was that it wasn't all a dream. Mlle Bienvenu --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > > wrote: > > > ADD IN: > > > book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. > > > > > > Severus > > > > Shirley: > > That would be *too* weird! Not to mention, very "Dallas" (and I > > didn't even watch that show). > > > > Come to think of it, it would be pretty sad, too. > > > > What made you come up with that one? > > > > Shirley > > Snape here: > > The first book had Harry dreaming of being free, and then he was for > part of the time. He even woke up the next day thinking that he had > had the most wonderful dream of being a wizard. > > The other books seem to have some dream reference in them at one > time or another, in CoS it is the Tom Riddle memory sequence, Harry > had found himself on his bed lying back after he was through with > the memory. In PoA doesn't he have a dream of the grim (AKA > Sirius)? And Ootp his dreams are the source of much pain and > eventually the cause of Sirius' death. In GoF the book opens with > Harry dreaming the death of a muggle, but he didn't see it through > the eyes of LV, it was as if he was standing there with everyone > else. He saw Peter, the old man, Nagini, and LV as Peter turned the > chair around. HMMM? I thought he was seeing through LV's eyes for > the rest of the book. Kind of interesting, never noticed that before. > > The reason I came up with that one is, truthfully, it just came to > me. If you have ever seen the movie Wisdom with Emilio Esteves and > Demi Moore, the whole movie is a imagined reality and at the end > after everone is killed, the main character sits up in his bed and > starts his day, just as the movie started. > > And yes, I think it would be very sad, but an ending that no one > would see coming. But I really hope it doesn't go that way, I like > to think that JKR's reality in her books is real in the books, not a > fevered dream of a child that is caught in a hopeless living > situation. > > Severus From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 18:59:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:59:59 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known in the END In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78437 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > ADD IN: > > book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. > > > > Severus > > Shirley: > That would be *too* weird! Not to mention, very "Dallas" (and I > didn't even watch that show). > > Come to think of it, it would be pretty sad, too. > > What made you come up with that one? > > Shirley bboy_mn: Oddly, the 'It Was All a Dream' ending was very popular point of discussion eons ago when we were discussing possible endings for the series. I say the discussion was popular, then ending was NOT very well favored. My personal speculated ending wasn't 'It's All a Dream', but 'It's All a Book'. The book ends on July 31, just as Harry turns 18. Since he is an adult in British society, the Durleys say they've done there bit and turn him out. In the last scene, Harry is in his bedroom writing the last few lines of a manuscript he has been writing since he was 11 years old. The last line goes something like this, '... and so ends the story of a little wizard boy with a scar'. There is a knock at the bedroom door. It's Vernon telling Harry it's time to go. Harry packs a few clothes and his manuscript into a battered suitcase, walks out the door with a smile on his face, pauses for one last look, then heads off to London where he will make his fame and fortune with a series of books about a boy with a scar who discovers he is a wizard. Fade to black. bboy_mn From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 19:25:21 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:25:21 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known in the END In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78438 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > > wrote: > > > ADD IN: > > > book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. > > > > > > Severus > > > > > Shirley: > > That would be *too* weird! Not to mention, very "Dallas" (and I > > didn't even watch that show). > > > > Come to think of it, it would be pretty sad, too. > > > > What made you come up with that one? > > > > Shirley > > bboy_mn: > > Oddly, the 'It Was All a Dream' ending was very popular point of > discussion eons ago when we were discussing possible endings for the > series. I say the discussion was popular, then ending was NOT very > well favored. > > My personal speculated ending wasn't 'It's All a Dream', but 'It's All > a Book'. The book ends on July 31, just as Harry turns 18. Since he is > an adult in British society, the Durleys say they've done there bit > and turn him out. In the last scene, Harry is in his bedroom writing > the last few lines of a manuscript he has been writing since he was 11 > years old. > > The last line goes something like this, '... and so ends the story of > a little wizard boy with a scar'. > > There is a knock at the bedroom door. It's Vernon telling Harry it's > time to go. Harry packs a few clothes and his manuscript into a > battered suitcase, walks out the door with a smile on his face, pauses > for one last look, then heads off to London where he will make his > fame and fortune with a series of books about a boy with a scar who > discovers he is a wizard. > > Fade to black. > > bboy_mn We all have to admit to ourselves that Harry isn't real in real life. Why do you want him not to be real in fantasy either? Elli From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 19:36:51 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:36:51 -0000 Subject: Waspy Snape In-Reply-To: <007801c368d7$71a28700$7ef3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78439 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > >Talisman, reviewing her field-guide to insects, notes> > I've only noticed one character who is described in waspish terms. > > > > "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about the Gryffindors . . .." (CoS 186) > > > > "`I am here on Dumbledore's orders,' said Snape, whose voice, by > > contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish . . .." (OoP > > 518) Finchin replies: I have the German copy ... o[f] the books and if it would be so important as you suggest, it would have been in there too, > wouldn't it? . . .because something like that in German would sound very odd. For it isn't there and nothing that comes close to it that suggests a wasp ... Talisman, who is not sure what we would find if we compared all translations, but is interested, asks: With what word does the German translation replace "waspish?" Even if the word is an important clue it might not be in your version, for the very reason that, as you seem to be saying, the term "waspish" doesn't translate well in German. Perhaps if you would share the German term(s) with us we could see some other connection. The alternate words might illuminate the original usage. Or not. Unfortunately trope, like poetry, often suffers in translation. Talisman, who is bringing her dragon-hide gloves, just in case. From hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 03:21:13 2003 From: hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com (say543) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:21:13 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78440 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" wrote: > I personally don't think that JK will have any gay characters in her book - > not a main character > anyway. Are you sure? What if there is a gay character in there already? And no, not Harry. Has anyone thought that Tonks might be gay? She doesn't seem like someone who would be attractive to males, for one. The whole pink hair deal is a stereotype for a lesbian. The fact that she can change her appearance could possibly be a metaphor for the fact that gays historically have changed their appearance to hide themselves. She doesn't act feminine at all. I just think that since there had been discussion about Harry being gay for years know, that JKR changed a member of the order from just a clumsy woman to a lesbian, to make a statement and to answer her critics. From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Aug 22 04:35:04 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:35:04 -0000 Subject: Sirius confusing Harry and James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78441 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > > Jeff wrote: > > Ah, I'm glad that I saw this!! I was about to mention this as > well. > > Both Snape and Sirius made this mistake, but as polar opposites. > > Snape hates Harry because he sees James in him, and Sirius *loves* > > Harry because of this,and yes, he wants his best friend back. > > > > Laura: > > If I may be so immodest as to quote myself from a tbay post earlier > today: > if you look at > it from his POV, you can see where he had good reasons to think that > Harry really was like James. Think about it: whenever Sirius > encounters Harry, Harry shows bravery, audacity, leadership, > intelligence and resourcefulness (in the Shack and during the > Tournament in particular). Harry, like James, is absolutely loyal to > his best friends and he detests the dark arts and everything about > them. If Sirius and Harry had had the chance to live together under > normal circumstances, in which neither one of them was under > emotional pressure, Sirius would have come to see that Harry was his > own person. As it is, it seems natural and reasonable enough for > Sirius to identify in Harry qualities that he valued in his best > friend-we're always looking for our friends in their children. > Yes, I would agree with that totally. In some cases, its ok, I guess, but in this it is not. Both Snape and Sirius are stressing Harry out due to their narrow views of him. I do fault Snape for doing that, but I can see his point, and I guess that if I were in his greasey, dirty robe, I'd feel the same way. Sirius' view isn't really bad, but it would certainly have caused Harry more stress as time went on, if he wasn't allowed to come into his own. > What do you think? As for Snape, he had decided that Harry was James > redux before ever meeting him, and nothing Harry could have done > would have changed his mind. I agree with this totally. Snape will *never* change his view of Harry. He's hated James, and the name Potter for so long, I seriously doubt that he could ever change his mind. Even if Harry saved his life, the greasy git would still look down his long crooked nose at him. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > > > This is very true. JKR has kept Harry's reactions true to his age > and how he was raised. I was quite impressed at how she accomplished > this. Anyone in Harry's position would be angry most of the time. > He doesn't really know a loving environment and has to deal with > that. He has only just begun to learn how to handle people who care > deeply for him. > That's so true. Harry's *never* had a real friend before. He tried to buy Ron's friendship with the candy, and he really loves Ron, as much as Ron loves him. Harry just can't really deal with friends yet, as he's so unacustomed to having any, and his poor social skills that he learned at home, have taught him only how to deal with things in anger. It is amazing that Harry doesn't swear. I'm sure that he heard a lot of it at home, and you can bet Dudley cussed him alot. But instead, Ron has the dirty mouth, but having 5 older brothers, one comes to expect that. :) > It's no wonder his anger bubbles so quickly to the surface. It has > through all the books. Notice how he reacts to the Dursleys. That > sniping carries over into his relationships at school. Although he > is softening in his close relationships, he still has problems with > authority. And even that problem is totally in character with a 15 > year old. > Agreed. Harry's very confused and socially/emotionally challenged. I would imagine that he'll be a late bloomer, but he'll really blossom into a fine man one day. If his faults don't cause his undoing, that is. Jeff From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Aug 22 04:46:32 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:46:32 -0000 Subject: Map of Hogwarts-LONG In-Reply-To: <3F2F570D.9736.361D048@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78442 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shaun Hately" > wrote: > > > > > > I mainly went with privacy stalls to avoid comments from certain > people > > - Oh, so who are these people and what is their problem? :) Lack of privacy, or having to share a tub/shower isn't going to promote same- sex activites that much. That's an old, errant misconseption. Sadly many US citizens feel that boys at boarding schools are all screwing each other. Frankly, from what I've seen of their structured days, when would they find time? :) Anyway, its just silly. > > bboy_mn: > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps the first question we should ask and answer is whether Hogwarts is likely to have private/semi-private bathrooms, or if they have common/communal bathrooms? > > Agreed. > > > > > > So the first question - Hogwarts Boarding School... > > > > > > > > > Semi-private bath - one bathroom per two dorm rooms? Although, living in a tower, doesn't make that likely. > > Hmmm...a toilet shared between two rooms, well, the way Ron eats, I doubt that would be a good idea. He's stink it up a bit too much. :) > > Common/Communal bathroom? - Perhaps one floor of the tower is a large bathroom for the boys, and another floor of the tower is a large bathroom for the girls. Personally, this is has my vote. > > Intresting. I like these ideas, and they all make sense. I'd have to say that I vote for the floor for each gender. Naturally, the female bath would be closer to their dorm than the male. Not to be sexist, but being polite. IIRC, some parks I've been to were set up like that, with the women's facilities being closer to the park area than the male. Also the bathing area would likely have a changing area right outside the actual bathing area, imho, and I guess they could have both showerheads and a few tubs, but in GOF, I think, Oliver is mentioned trying to drown himself in the shower after a Quidditch match, and I'm guessing that the shower is in the Quidditch lockerroom, but its not clear from the book. Its not that big of a deal, but I just think that they'd have the tubs in such an old school. > > > > Then the next question is, what facilities, that is, what equipment is contained in each bathroom? > > > > Tubs, stools, sinks? > > Yeah, I'd say so. > > Tub/shower combinations, stools, sinks? > > Well, the shower hose attachments would be ok, I guess. > > Showers only, stools, sinks? > > Dunno. Maybe for Qudditch, since they'd be covered with mud sometimes. :) > > Primarily group showers with a few tubs, stools, sinks? > > Dunno. I guess it could be, but the tubs only sounds closer, but I could be wrong. > > > > Of course, there is no way for me to know, but here is what I suspect. > > > > One tower floor for boys, and one for girls bathroom facilities, open group showers with a few semi-private tubs, private toilet stalls, rows of sinks, and a changing area outside the shower area. One wash sink in each dorm room. > > I don't know about the idea of having a washbasin in the dorm. Its not a bad idea, but with boys, such a thing would be rather dirty and most likely always dripping in the middle of the night since they'd not shut it off properly. ;) > > bboy_mn: > > > > Let me see if I understand the question. > > > > You are asking, are there privacy partitions in the bathing area, not are there privacy partitions in the 'bodily functions' area? > > > > I think it's clear that, at least for the 'sit down' bodily functions areas, there are privacy stalls. Although, I confess to having been places that didn't have that luxury. So that questions seems resolved. > > > > Now the actual bathing areas. I can't remember ever being in an European school, but I have been in public health clubs and baths in Germany, and they usually have open showers. They seem to be very big on privacy, the 'bodily functions' stalls go from floor to ceiling and don't let so much as a crack of light throught the seams. At the same time, Germans don't seem to be as hung up about nudity as Americans are, so showers we usually open 'gang' showers. > > > > > > Agreed. Its ok to need to have privacy to have a poo, and nobody wants to hear or smell it, but otherwise, you're all the same sex, so why worry. > > > > One thing I don't think many people are aware of, is that, to a limited extent, water is rationed in Europe, or at least in Germany when I was there. > > > > So my point is, based on admittedly limited experience, I'm going with open showers, and perhaps, in some cases, tubs with handheld showers. > > > > Ah, thanks for clearing some things up. I wasn't aware of the rationing in EE, but it makes sense. I've noticed the handheld shower nozzels in some movies, and had assumed that it was due to the large amount of construction done during the post WW2 era when home showers weren't that common, since I see in some movies that the homes are rather old, some even pre-WW2. I do recall seeing in some books, one that I borrowed from a library a few years ago was about boarding schools, but I dont recall if it was only in the UK or in Europe as well. It showed large tiled rooms with showerheads, no privacy, but I also saw a few tubs, with more than one boy in them. No privacy there either. I don't recall seeing the loo, so can't comment on that. I'm guessing that what we saw in the film of the girl's toilet is close to what most schools would have. It was odd that in the movie they had regular sinks near the toilet, yet they also had those older sinks in the lounge area. I'm guessing that was for the movie only, as I don't think they'd have 2 sets of wash basins in a loo, but then again, I don't go looking in the female washrooms, at least not since I was a wee lad. :) Jeff From sdpinoy2003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 10:40:36 2003 From: sdpinoy2003 at yahoo.com (Ephrem B) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 03:40:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030822104036.74160.qmail@web40012.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78443 Dave wrote: Sorry if this has been said, but yahoo has that notorious search engine and I can't find anything on it. If you would have seen the basilisk through a window? No. Just as Justin Finch-Fletchley didn't die looking straight through Nearly Headless Nick, and Collin Creevey didn't die when he saw it through the camera lens. Why then was Myrtle killed when viewing the basilisk straight through her glasses (CS 16)? Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, she should only have been petrified because of her glasses just as the camera and Nick saved the other two. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> There's two possibilities to why Myrtle's glasses didn't save her. First, unlike the silvery mist of ghost and the multiple lens of a camera, glasses may not distort the basilisk's stare enough to protect the wearer. Second, when Myrtle died she was in the girl's bathroom crying. I can say a majority of people who wear glasses will take them off if they're crying for a long period of time so they can wipe their eyes more frequently and easily. So it's a possibility that she wasn't wearing them when she was attacked. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 18:04:02 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:04:02 -0000 Subject: years between books In-Reply-To: <20030822151518.70308.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78444 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > Why is everyone saying that there is going to be a > wait of several > years before we get Book 6.? Is this official or just > wild guesswork, > based on the time between Books 4 and 5?? I understood > that Book 6 > was going to be much shorter than the two previous > ones, so I hardly > think a wait of years is likely.? God, I hope not. > especially as > there probably WILL be a healthy gap between Books 6 > and 7. > Please say it isn't so. > Sylvia > > My reply: I think it will be out in a little over a > year, my reasoning for that is simple. JKR is ready > to move on...she is going to finish the series and all > that. > > The reason for the gap between four and five was > mostly JKR's mental break down. That she has alluded > to in the press. > >From an interview I read at the time of release of OOTP, she stated she had already begun book 6. So I think it will be about a year since she is not going to have a baby, and seems relatively healthy. I think she also stated that she was working on some plot lines or something for book 7 as well. Fran From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Sat Aug 23 11:20:15 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:20:15 +1000 Subject: Mythology of Centaurs WAS Re:Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) References: <150.22f67bb4.2c7587ef@aol.com> <3F44AA27.1080100@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: <004e01c36968$87d11e10$6d984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 78445 HI Jazmyn, and anyone else who may be intersted in my inane > I have found no source in mythology to suggest that there are no female > centaurs. Please provide some sort of proof for this. (ie. What book > did you find this in. And no, Piers Anthony's Xanth is not acceptable > as a source for Greek Myth) > Besides, its SATYRS, not centaurs that supposedly were all males and > they mated with the 'all female' wood nymphs and anything else that > would hold still long enough. In Greek Myth, only one centaur tried to > run off with a woman (Hercules wife) and was killed. "World Mythology" edt Roy Willis "The centaurs, decendants of Ixion. (A notorius sexual transgressor and king of the Lapiths, a fabulous race of Thessaly. He attempted to rape the Goddess Hera, but she decieved him by putting a cloud in her shape in her bed, with which he mated when he was drunk. Zeus punished Ixion for attempting to seduce his wife by tying him to a burning wheel which would forever turn in the underworld. The offspring of Ixion and the cloud was Centuros, who became a sexual transgressor himself by coupling with a mare to produce the first Centaur.) Centaurs had the torsos of men and the lower bodies of horses. They were often associated with sexual license and violence. At the wedding of King Perithous of the Lapiths, the Centaurs attempted to carry off his bride, causing a war in which Theseus aided the Lapiths. However some Centaurs were wise and kindly, such as Chiron, who educated several heros including Jason and Achilles, and Pholus, who had played host to Herakles. (unfortunately Herakles's visit ended on a sour note when other Centaurs demanded to share the wine Pholus had offered him. They were beaten in battle by the angry hero. Another Centaur Nessus, ultimately caused Herakles's death.)" "Myths and Legends" Arthur Cotterell "In Greek Mythology, the Centaur was a creature with the head and torso of a man with the lower body of a horse. Centaurs were commonly lascivious, drunken followers of Dionysus, although some of them, notably Chiron, were teachers of men and nurturers of civilisation..." Just a couple of notes, anyway... Nox ~ Lead me not into temptation; I can find it myself. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 20:28:28 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:28:28 -0000 Subject: Waspy Snape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78446 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mlle_bienvenu" wrote: > > > > > Me: > > My theory is it is Ludo Bagman. He is alwasy described as walking > > around in his WILBORNE WASP UNIFORM. It would make sense that he > was > > buzzing around Harry in the scene from GOF. > > Now, why would he be the wasp in the OWL exam scene in OOTP? > Remember > > that Winky accuses him of being a bad dark wizard, and Harry see's > > him tried in the DD pensieve, but he got off. I think his bumbling > > characterization is just a deception for him still being a DE. IMHO > > it seems pertinent that he was flying around just before Harry had > > the Sirius/LV dream that upset Harry so. Bagman could have been > > spying for LV so as to let LV know when Harry was really tired > > therefore Vulnerable to LV controlling Harry's mind. > > Now, back to you! > > Fran > > Mlle: This would fit in perfectly with something I found just > yesterday. :gets out handy dandy Latin Dictionary: > > Ludo- to play, sport; to play at or with; to imitate, banter, decieve > delude. > > And a related word: > > Ludio- an actor > > No sir, our Mr. Bagman is certainly not the bumbling but lovable > character he appears to be. He is certainly quite waspish... > Hats off to you, Mlle Bienvenu! Apologies for the one liner... Fran From yankee_bubba at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 20:34:45 2003 From: yankee_bubba at hotmail.com (bubbaqrib) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:34:45 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78447 Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of Slytherin? I ask this question first based on the statement by JKR that one scene had to stay in CoS because it was important long term to the story. I'm thinking of the scene where Hermione says "Harry for all we know you could be the heir of Slytherin". I'm also struck by this because of Hermione's track record on statements like this. Second I ask this because Harry is a Parselmouth. He often has been mentioned with snake like terms. Example is Malfoy in front of Fudge and there has been other casual reference to snakes in suttle ways. Third is the sorting hat it wanted to put Harry in Slytherin. But he wasn't because of the choices he made not because of who he is. The sorting hat in OoP talks about uniting the school what better way to truely unite the school then if Harry was the heir of Slytherin. That would bring the house together. I'm not saying Harry is the Heir of Slytherin. But like Hermione says for all we know you could be. This note has nothing to do with above post but wouldn't it be funny if the person to learn magic latter in life was the Ultimate Muggle Uncle Vernon. BubbaQRib From quigonginger at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 20:37:37 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:37:37 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Avery, Snape, Florence and a little bit of Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78448 Amy sat on the beach patting Avery's hand. She had noticed a woman stumbling out of "the George" earlier, but had not paid much attention. Avery was now looking at her with a look of disgust. "Howdy-doo" the woman greeted them. Avery turned away. "Um, not to be rude," Amy said to the woman, "but who are you and have you been listening?" The woman swayed a bit. "Now that you mention it, I was listening pretty intently. I was keen on hearing what you had to say about Avery here." Avery gave a loud "harrumph". "I take it you've met?" Amy asked. "In a fashion," the woman replied. "Oh, my name's Ginger. I had a different fourth man theory that didn't include Avery. It got blown out of the bay completely. Worse than Avery's. But I think he kind of holds it against me." "So now you have a new theory?" Amy asked. "Nope, just a comment on what you said." Ginger scrunched her eyes shut and repeated: > "I am getting very suspicious of your "almost" appearing act. I > don't think you turn up in the end battle, you might be there you > might not cannon is unclear. There were about 12 death eaters but > only four are mentioned: Mr Malfoy, Mrs Lestrange, Dolohov and > McNair. You are not mentioned, no one calls your name or points you > out. Ginger cleared her throat in a nonhem-hem way and continued. "I was just reading that section today, and they did mention everyone that was there. It's on p. 788 US edition. Malfoy is telling the DE's to split up to look for the kids. Nott is down at that point. He divides the rest as follows: Belletrix and Rodolphus, Crabbe and Rastaban," Avery made a gagging motion at the mention of the actual fourth man. Ignoring him, Ginger went on, "Jugson and Dolohov, Macnair and Avery, Rookwood was sent solo, and Malfoy went with Mulciber." "Oh, Avery!" exclaimed Amy, "you *were* there!" "Yup" said Ginger. "Now what I wondered was why Goyle wasn't there. Kind of odd, don't you think?" "Well, take care, I'm back off to the George. I just came out for a bit of air. Place is full of dog hair." Ginger waved and shuffled back to her lurking hole. From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 21:26:29 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let It Be Known in the END In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030822212629.64771.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78449 --- elizabeth1603 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Shirley" > > > wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "severusbook4" > > > wrote: > > > > ADD IN: > > > > book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still > 11 years old. > > > > > > > > Severus > > > > > > > > Shirley: > > > That would be *too* weird! Not to mention, very > "Dallas" (and I > > > didn't even watch that show). > > > >SNIP > > The last line goes something like this, '... and > so ends the story of > > a little wizard boy with a scar'. > > I'm grabbing a few things here, but if JKR ended the series with 'It was all a dream', that would be upsetting to adults and devistating for kids. It would be the equivilant to saying 'Don't dream, they won't come true.' If that was ever her intent, I could see putting out an edited book a few months later with that ending, but not right at first. Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 14:18:35 2003 From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (Anna) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:18:35 -0000 Subject: Wizard Economics (was Re: Income of professors at Hogwarts?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78450 > > Laura: > > I don't know about income-the whole money thing is pretty vague in > canon. Regardless of what their salary is, I wonder where the money comes from. Do Hogwarts students pay tuition? I find it difficult to believe that the Weasley family could afford to send seven children to Hogwarts if it is expensive. At one point Percy, Fred, George, Ron and Ginny are there at the same time. Maybe children of Ministry employees are given a discount. Maybe Hogwarts is Ministry funded. Who pays Ministry employees? Do wizards pay income taxes. How is Azkaban funded? Is St. Mungos a private hospital or is it publically funded? Who develops wizard fiscal policy? Just Curious. From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 14:37:43 2003 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:37:43 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay: Ouroboros in HP? (Pretty long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78452 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" wrote: Either way, it explains the ancestor mystery. If it really > should say ancestor and not descendent, than this is the only theory > that makes sense that explains it. What does everyone think? This is the best explanation I've heard so far. The individual hows and wherefores may be a bit different, but the overall effect works out really well and possibly answers some tough questions. From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 21:32:33 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 14:32:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] How The Heck Did Hedwig Deliver Harry's Post? In-Reply-To: <004e01c36968$87d11e10$6d984cca@Monteith> Message-ID: <20030822213233.93720.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78453 When Harry sends Hedwig to deliver his encrypted letter to Sirus (Ch. 14), how did she deliver it? First, 12 Grimmauld Place is magically concealed. And in order for it appear you have to think, "The headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London." Right? That's what Lupin tells Harry to do. Hedwig is a magical animal, but she still doesn't have human intelligence. And even if she could think this in her owl brain, and 12 Grimmauld Place materializes, there's no open window for her to swoop in. Does she peck at the serpent door knocker until Mrs. Weasley or someone else in the Order answers? Just wondering. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From pinoypartygal at aol.com Fri Aug 22 16:24:14 2003 From: pinoypartygal at aol.com (hermy_luna81) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:24:14 -0000 Subject: Generational Parallels - who is Lily? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78454 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" > wrote: > > Based on the tiny hint we saw about Lily in OoP who do you think > > of the current generation most fits her character? > > > > It needs to be someone who isn't afraid to stand up for > > themselves or others but who also obviously has a sense of humour and > > someone who has a strong sense of right and wrong. > > > > The two obvious female candidates to me are Ginny or Hermoine. > > > > LPD "Donna" wrote: > Most definately Ginny. There are parallels between Ginny and > Lily. Ginny is a strong female as was Lily. She is very good at cursing > her brothers, Lily was strong at charms. She even reminds us of > Lily physically as both have red hair. > > Wasn't it Ginny who freed the others from Draco and his cronies in > Umbridge's office? > > D Couldn't it possibly be Hermione? The first similarity I see between Lily and Hermione is that they were both Muggle-born. Hermione is strong like Lily and just as clever...if not more (don't you see her becoming Head Girl like Lily when she reaches seventh year?)As far as being good at Charms, we can assume that Hermione is very good in the area as well, since she is pretty much good at everything. However, I think the important point concerning that topic would have to do with their wands. We know that Lily's wand was particularly good for charms. However, even up until now, we have not a clue as to what Hermione's wand is specifically good for or what it is made of. We know Hermione is never afraid to stand up for herself. How many times have we seen her do it, especially in dealing with Malfoy and his cronies? She was never once afraid to argue with Professor Umbridge about her teaching.That's only two points among MANY others. Hermione knows the difference between right and wrong and she's never afraid to call Ron or Harry out when she thinks that they're wrong in what they're doing...though, she can't always stop them. More importantly though, she's not afraid to fight for what's right and to risk her life to do the right thing...I think that was proven in the entirety of OotP. Especially at the end. More importantly, though, a trait that I found in both Lily and Hermione is that they're not afraid to stand up for others...especially the less fortunate. Like Lily, Hermione, now, always stands up for Snape (oops sorry PROFESSOR Snape) whenever Harry or Ron insult him or suspect of him of trying to harm Harry. She has done this pretty much throughout the series and I find that pretty poignant even though Snape is pretty horrible to Hermione, just like he was horrible to Lily. As for sense of humor...well Hermione could use a little bit of work in that area. But as she gets older she is easing off a bit, she is learning to have more fun. She can and does laugh, if only people would give her the chance.After she laughs with Krum, laughs with Ginny and Mrs. Weasley...Harry and Ron just fail to see that light side of her. So while Ginny may be the physical generational parallel of Lily, I think that when it comes to abilities and personality, Hermione and Lily are much more similar. Right, well then, that is my spiel...I hope I did all right as this was my first ever post. ~Emily~ From mail at andydarley.com Fri Aug 22 19:47:41 2003 From: mail at andydarley.com (andydarley) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:47:41 -0000 Subject: Lupin's house (WAS Lupin's personality) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78455 > Nah, that's not unfairness. That's cowardice, nothing more, and > nothing less. I think that part of the Second Pensieve Scene's (we SO > need another name for it) function is to underline this particular > aspect of Lupin's character, in case any of us missed it in POA . Lupin might be a coward. It's certainly one feasible explanation for aspects of his behaviour in PoA and OoP. But can he be both a coward and a Gryffindor? I must say that I struggle to see how, if bravery is the defining characteristic of that house. Now, I'm sure he's shown a lot of bravery throughout the books - but the proposition being tested here is not "is Lupin brave" but "is Lupin a coward". If Lupin's propensity to cowardice is a more important aspect of his character than Lupin's bravery then throw the following elements up in the air, and see what patterns they make this time around: Black, Potter, Lupin, Pettigrew, Gryffindor, Slytherin, Hufflepuff, Ravenclaw. Astrofiammante From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 22:21:42 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:21:42 -0000 Subject: Lupin's house (WAS Lupin's personality) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78456 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "andydarley" wrote: Astrofiammante: But can he be both a coward and a Gryffindor? I must say that I struggle to see how, if bravery is the defining characteristic of that house. Me (kg): In PS/SS, Neville gets ten points at the end of school year feast because (paraphrase) "It takes one type of courage to stand up to danger, another to stand up against our friends". Some one can be very brave but not able to tell his or her friends that what they're doing is wrong, and someone can be brave about telling the truth to friends but have problems acting in moments of danger. So I wouldn't go as far as to call Lupin a coward, and before OotP I wouldn't have said that Neville showed a tremendous amount of bravery (although he showed glimpses of potential). -kg From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Aug 22 22:43:05 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 22:43:05 -0000 Subject: Owl deliveries (Was: How The Heck Did Hedwig Deliver Harry's Post?) In-Reply-To: <20030822213233.93720.qmail@web21004.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78457 Buttercup wrote: > > When Harry sends Hedwig to deliver his encrypted > letter to Sirus (Ch. 14), how did she deliver it? > First, 12 Grimmauld Place is magically concealed. And > in order for it appear you have to think, "The > headquarters of the Order of the Phoenix may be found > at number twelve, Grimmauld Place, London." Right? > That's what Lupin tells Harry to do. Hedwig is a > magical animal, but she still doesn't have human > intelligence. And even if she could think this in her > owl brain, and 12 Grimmauld Place materializes, > there's no open window for her to swoop in. Does she > peck at the serpent door knocker until Mrs. Weasley or > someone else in the Order answers? Just wondering. > > ===== > Buttercup I have long suspected that owls do not travel by our normal space when delivering, but rather travel through some sort of "parallel" space where distances are the same but there is no obstacles. I call that O-Space (readers of Terry Pratchett might catch the reference). Why do I think this? It has always been an interesting idea that the ministry could not find Sirius in PoA. Why didn't they just send him an owl and follow it? It is a well known fact that an owl will always find its destination, even when the sender has no idea where that destination is. Magical owls seem to have some sixth sense of direction that allows them to find their destination no matter how well he or she is hidding (GoF - Harry sends Hedwig to Sirius who is hidding in some tropical place, or at least Sirius makes it look so - he could well be hidding in the London zoo). So an owl will always find its destination, and yet no-one thought of sending a note to Sirius ("Gotcha!" would be appropiate) and following the owl to him, so this is either a flint or - much more likely- owls have magical powers that allow them to go places where no-one can follow. This could include getting directly into Grimmauld Place. In fact, I can imagine Dumbledore setting a provision for owls to get in directly. This accomplishes two things - faster mailing and reduced danger of discovery, since they don't have to keep coming in and out for the mail. The only canon we have against this idea is Harry's PoV, who has seen owl arrive in several occasions and, in his house and in the shack in the middle of the sea, the owls knock on the windows. But those are muggle places, so owls cannot enter as easily as a wizard place. On the canon in favour of my idea of a spell that allows olws to enter places hidden outside normal space (such as Grimmauld, which is hidden between two other houses), I present Diagon Alley. Sure, there is no canon of owl post ever arriving, IIRC, but being the magical place it is, I'm sure that owl can and in fact do come and go as they please. And the only ways in from the outside world are through a wall that requires a wand and a few fireplaces, as well as (probably) other magical means we don't know about - but we *are* certain that the only way in from normal London is through the Leaky Cauldron (and thus, the wall). And yet I'm pretty sure that owls don't use that system. In short, I think magical places can be enchanted to allow owl in from whatever magical realm they move through (while muggle places still pose a problem, and have to be let in). Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Fri Aug 22 23:09:51 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:09:51 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78458 BubbaQRib wrote: > Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of > Slytherin? The short answer is no. But then, there has been no evidence that Harry is not the Heir of Gryyfindor, or of Hufflepuff, or Ravenclaw or the English Royal Family or even George Washington. Logic implies that you cannot prove a negative, anyway. > I ask this question first based on the statement by JKR that one > scene had to stay in CoS because it was important long term to the > story. I'm thinking of the scene where Hermione says "Harry for all > we know you could be the heir of Slytherin". IIRC, the scene she was refering to was one in the chamber of secrets, but don't quote me there. I've never been sure where that statement comes from, anyway (could someone provide a link? Thanks). > I'm also struck by > this because of Hermione's track record on statements like this. Oh, and that statement is perfectly correct - after 1000 years, *anyone* can, theorically, be a descendent of any given individual. The blood mixes so much over the years that it is very easy to track back to a particular person. Take my favourite (and often-used in this list) piece of maths for ascendents. Assuming all your greatgrandpas of the time were different people, how many grandpas did you have 1000 years ago? Assuming a (very low) rate of 4 generations per century, you would've had 2^40 grandfathers (about an European billion, an American trillion - a million million). Obviously, this cannot be, since there have never been so many people alive at the same time. Many of them are the same person. But really, who is to say that one of those million million wasn't such and such (in this case, Slytherin)? By those maths, Harry (and everyone else in the WW) might be descendant of Slytherin. Of course, now we get into the tricky part. What makes a descendent the Heir? Well, there have been many rules - from first born to first male born to first female born to first male born and if not first female and even selected by the previous heir between all candidates. Thus, depending on what rule of heir you use, if Harry indeed descends from Slytherin (which has not been proven nor even suggested) he could be the Heir. So Hermione is right - for all they know (i.e. nothing) Harry could be the heir. And so could Ron.And even Hermione. > Second I ask this because Harry is a Parselmouth. He often has been > mentioned with snake like terms. Example is Malfoy in front of > Fudge and there has been other casual reference to snakes in suttle > ways. It is canon that Harry is Parselmouth because Voldemort passed that power (and many others) onto him during the fateful night through the failed AK. Besides, being parselmouth doesn't make you heir of Slytherin in the usual sense - Slythering looked for parselmouths in his time, so they weren't restricted to his family. There is a theory (which I myself like) that says that anyone that speaks parseltongue is de fact Heir of Slytherin, since you can enter the chamber of secrets, but that's got nothing to do with the concept of "main descendant" heir that (I think) you are refering to. > Third is the sorting hat it wanted to put Harry in Slytherin. Harry does fit in Slytherin. He disobeys rules, cheats and steals (when the circunstances require it) and doesn't trust authority and all those other characteristics Dumbledore mentioned. He also fits in Gryffindor (and many members have pointed out how he fits in Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff too), though. And of course, just being in Slytherin doesn't make you the heir (or else, there are several hundreds of them walking around). > But > he wasn't because of the choices he made not because of who he is. He was placed in Gryffindor because of what he is too - he never asked to be in Gryffindor, just *not* to be in Slytherin. So the hat still chose for him between three houses, and placed him where he fit best of the three (we assume. Maybe he just throws dice to decide). > I'm not saying Harry is the Heir of Slytherin. But like Hermione > says for all we know you could be. Yes, indeed, and all Hermione knows is, in this case, equivalent to cero. They know *nothing* of Harry's family, and even if they knew, 1000 years have passed, and that is a *long* time. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf, who won't discard the theory but that wants to point out that there is little canon in its favour, in his opinion From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 23:15:29 2003 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TBAY: Avery,Snape, Florence et al In-Reply-To: <1061584550.43667.77004.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030822231529.55052.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78459 Message: 6 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:53:05 -0000 From: "amy_marblefeet" Subject: TBAY: Avery, Snape, Florence and a little bit of Neville Amy was still on the beach surrounded by driftwood trying to comfort poor Avery. No one seemed very interested in him, not after OotP, not after the Fourth Man HoverCraft had been blown to pieces by the brother-in-law of that dead sexy Mrs Lestrange. What is this and why is it here? I tried (in vain) to follow this post and to find a discussion thread but finally gave up. A general question - aren't there fanfiction sites for this type of flight of ideas? AF --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 23:19:07 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:19:07 -0000 Subject: FILK: Occlumency In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78460 <<<"marinafrants" wrote: > I went and saw what I shouldn?t see. > Snapey, he throw roaches at me > I saw his pants, now I won?t advance > In Occlumency. > He boot my ass right out of his class > In Occlumency.>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Excellent! This is my new favorite filk. When my grandniece insists on watching The Little Mermaid for the zillionth time, I can sing these words. Thank you! From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 23:28:31 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:28:31 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Possible silly question about Werewolves References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78461 Gaspode: As I understand the wolfsbane potion isn't a real cure. It is just a way to control the condition to an extent. As far as I can tell Lupin still turns into a wolf , but isn't as violent and bloodthirsty as he would be otherwise. Dan: You're exactly right. In PoA, Lupin tells the kids that he curls up in the shack as a harmless wolf. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 23:41:15 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 23:41:15 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78462 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Oooh! I have to say I agree that this gay thread is totally evil, and I have *so* missed it! Now, if only the folk who think "evil" refers "Satan and all his works and pomps" could go and relax with a cup of herbal tea, those of us who understand "evil" to mean stiletto heels and red, red lips can get on with the dishing... --JDR From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 23 00:00:04 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:00:04 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Thestral and Dark Magic Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78463 The talk and the alcohol are flowing freely at the Royal George. The warm, convivial atmosphere of the pub, combined with George's calming presence (and generous pouring), have defused the slight tension left over from the conversation on the beach, and now everyone is chatting in a friendly manner. Marina is contemplating the menu, trying to decide if she wants the fish and chips or the spicy chicken wings, when she notices Abigail coming over to her table. Abigail is wearing a nifty little black dress, whose bohemian elegance is only slightly marred by a thick coating of dog hair. Marina cheerfully invites the new arrival to sit down, thinking she's here to join the latest Prank discussion, but Abigail has something else on her mind. After a few brief inquiries, she pulls out a pamphlet which Marina recognizes from her own earlier work on the USS SAD DENIAL. > Abigail considers this for a few minutes. "I like it." She says finally. > > "You do? Oh, wonderful!" Marina enthuses. "Can I interest you in one of > our STUFFED BEARs?" > > "Not hardly." Abigail says, accepting another drink from George and > picking some more dog hair off her clothes. "I like the idea that Harry > will travel to the underworld to retrieve Sirius. After all, by the end of OOP > he's already attempted several desperate measures to contact him. He > tries to go beyond the veil himself, he tries to use the mirror to contact > Sirius, and he tries to find out if Sirius could become a ghost. His behavior > when he speaks to Luna notwithstanding, it's clear that Harry hasn't > accepted the fact or the finality of Sirius' death. Where we disagree is in > whether Harry will succeed." > Abigail smiles. "Oh, I'm quite certain that it is possible to return Sirius > from the dead in the manner which you've described, using the Thestrals, > and I believe that Harry will attempt to do so. It's just that I firmly believe > that any such attempt will fall under the category of Dark Magic." > "Dark Magic?" Marina frowns and reflexively clutches her STUFFED BEAR, spilling a few drops of Scotch on top of its plush head. > With a flick of a wand, Abigail produces a scroll of parchment so faded > and covered with dust that it is barely legible. Marina can almost make > out a message number - 35276. > > "I wrote this ever so long ago." Abigail says wistfully. "During a discussion > on Harry and Voldemort's wands. Listen to this: > > >>Voldemort, representing and embodying evil, is all about the defeat > of death. The name "Voldemort" with which he had been associated with > since he was a child, means "the death of death", his followers are the > eaters of death, even his symbol is the Morsmordre - death of death again. > By his own admission, his final goal in the bad old days was to achieve > immortality, and he worked very hard to protect himself against death so > that, having been hit by the Avada Kedavra curse, he still managed to > survive in some basic, bodyless form. > > Taking these ambitions away from Voldemort's other ambitions (namely, > ruling the world, killing muggles and muggle-born wizards, and general > murder and mayhem) they don't seem so terrible. After all, what could be > better than conquering death? ... It's Hagrid who answers this question at > the very beginning of the series when he says of Voldemort "Some say he > died... Don't know if he had enough human left in him to die." > > In other words, in Potterverse, evil isn't represented by death and good > by life, but almost the other way around. ... The pheonix, then, represents > not immortality but resurrection - life *through* death, not without it, just > as Harry's life is saved through the death of his mother. To be a dark wizard, > then, is to dispute the natural order of things - that everything must change > and die - and attempt to change it.>> "Oh, is that all?" Marina smiles with relief. "I totally agree with you on that." "You do?" Abigail looks surprised. "But then how do you reconcile this with bringing Sirius back from the dead." "I don't have to reconcile anything!" Marina says. "You see, under my theory, Sirius isn't dead to begin with. That's why it's so important that Sirius went through the Veil *physically*, and that he wasn't mortally hurt when he fell. Sirius is a living person trapped in the realm of the dead -- the exact opposite of a ghost, which is a dead person trapped in the realm of the living. Being here doesn't make Nearly Headless Nick or Professor Binns alive, and being there doesn't make Sirius dead. Bringing him back wouldn't dispute the natural order of things; it would restore it, by restoring Sirius to his proper place in the universe. It would be like helping a ghost pass on to the other side "In fact, this was part of my original thestral theory. You should be able to find it in the pamphlet. I believe that Sirius' return willinvolve some sort of soul-for-a-soul swap: Sirius will come back to this world, while Nick will pass beyond the Veil. After all, in his conversation with Harry, Nick seemed to be regretting his cowardice in not passing on at the time of his death." Feeling much cheered by her own theorizing, Marina raises her hand to wave toward the bar. "Hey, George! Come over here and take my order, will you? I need some food to go with all this booze." Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 23 00:02:08 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:02:08 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78464 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura: > > We should distinguish between what Remus (this applies to James and > Sirius and even Snape as well) was as a teenager and what hebecame as > an adult. Remus may have been on the spineless side at school (at > least toward J&S) but as an adult, he seems to me to carry a lot of > moral authority. He never hesitates to stand up to adult!Sirius and > he can keep such volatile personalities as Mad-eye, Tonks and Molly > in line. Well, it was the adult Remus who kept quiet about Sirius' Animagus abilities and knowledge of the secret tunnels into Hogwarts because he was unwilling to lose Dumbledore's regard by revealing his youthful indiscretions. I suspect that his current ability to keep the people around him in line comes not so much from increased moral authority as from increased facility for judging how far he can afford to go, and which buttons he needs to push. I think the adult Remus is a rather manipulative man, actually. Not from any malicious motive, but from the same defensiveness and need for acceptance that motivated him as a boy. Young Remus protected himself by not provoking reactions from other people. Older Remus protects himself by controlling the reactions he provokes. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 23 00:25:56 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:25:56 -0000 Subject: years between books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78465 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > I suspect now that things are somwhat back to normal, she should be > able to spend more time writing. I know in a couple of interviews she > said she already had a good start on book 6, so I'm agreeing with > everyone else; new book in a year to a year and a half. > > ...or at least, that's what I'm hoping for. Cynic that I am, I've been wondering how much *money* will play a role in the release date of Book 6. From a marketing perspective, would Warner Bros. want the release of Book 6 to coincide with the release of the POA movie (or shortly after, even)? Seems like staggered release dates of all the rest of the books and movies will allow for surges in past book/movie sales, 1-2 year intervals. Jen Reese, wishing Book 6 would be sooner.... From siskiou at earthlink.net Sat Aug 23 00:34:17 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:34:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16250278547.20030822173417@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78466 Hi, Friday, August 22, 2003, 3:44:17 AM, Sydney wrote: > RE: Children's book-- that's a good reason why it wouldn't be on the > page, necessarily, but there's plenty of horrible stuff going on in > the series off-stage. Longbottoms tortured into insanity? And what > were the Death Eaters doing to Muggle women, do you think? I think > JKR deliberately left it ambiguous, so people could imagine whatever > they could handle. Possibly, but with all the other instances mentioned, JKR makes it very clear (imo) what happened, and that it is wrong. There is no question about the Longbottom's being tortured, or that what the DEs are doing to the Muggle family is wrong. It isn't used as a humorous moment, while (again imo) the hospital scene with Umbridge reads as a lighter moment. It's possible that JKR will let us know later what exactly happened to Umbridge while she was with the Centaurs, and maybe the kids will feel guilty about having laughed at her reaction in the hospital scene. For now, I didn't get the feeling there was rape involved, because of the way JKR wrote the hospital scene. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 01:33:54 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:33:54 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78467 > > Laura: > > > > We should distinguish between what Remus (this applies to James and > > Sirius and even Snape as well) was as a teenager and what hebecame > as > > an adult. Remus may have been on the spineless side at school (at > > least toward J&S) but as an adult, he seems to me to carry a lot of > > moral authority. He never hesitates to stand up to adult!Sirius > and > > he can keep such volatile personalities as Mad-eye, Tonks and Molly > > in line. > "marinafrants" wrote: > Well, it was the adult Remus who kept quiet about Sirius' Animagus > abilities and knowledge of the secret tunnels into Hogwarts because > he was unwilling to lose Dumbledore's regard by revealing his > youthful indiscretions. I suspect that his current ability to keep > the people around him in line comes not so much from increased moral > authority as from increased facility for judging how far he can > afford to go, and which buttons he needs to push. I think the adult > Remus is a rather manipulative man, actually. Not from any > malicious motive, but from the same defensiveness and need for > acceptance that motivated him as a boy. Young Remus protected > himself by not provoking reactions from other people. Older Remus > protects himself by controlling the reactions he provokes. > Laura again: You bring up a tricky question. It is generally agreed, except among the ESE!Lupin crazies that Lupin is fundamentally a good person and was as a teenager as well. He seems to be vulnerable to sins of omission, especially where they concern his personal welfare, but in the balance he comes out on the good side. So why, then, did he not blow the whistle on Sirius in PoA if he truly felt that Harry was in danger? A vague shape of an idea is coming to me that says that somewhere inside him, Remus knew that Sirius was innocent. And so he didn't feel compelled to go to DD and tell him what he (Remus) knew. Canonically, his explanation is that he didn't want to suffer DD's disappointment in him (for either past or present conduct). But if he kept silent believing that Sirius was trying to kill Harry, that makes him a lot worse than weak. Jeez, first we lose Sirius, now this? The horror, the horror... From Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 01:37:22 2003 From: Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:37:22 -0000 Subject: No subject Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78468 ADVERTISEMENT Message: 6 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:53:05 -0000 From: "amy_marblefeet" Subject: TBAY: Avery, Snape, Florence and a little bit of Neville Amy was still on the beach surrounded by driftwood trying to comfort poor Avery. No one seemed very interested in him, not after OotP, not after the Fourth Man HoverCraft had been blown to pieces by the brother-in-law of that dead sexy Mrs Lestrange. What is this and why is it here? I tried (in vain) to follow this post and to find a discussion thread but finally gave up. A general question - aren't there fanfiction sites for this type of flight of ideas? AF ME: I'm a relative newcomer, but I love this TBAY stuff. As I understand it, TBAY stands for Theory Bay, and this is simply an alternate way of presenting one's ideas, as if they were being talked about by characters actually living in "Theory Bay". For instance, the preponderance of dog hair everywhere is a clue that these characters are serious Sirius fans. Flights of ideas is what HP discussion is all about; TBAY adds to the fun. Marmelade's Mom From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 01:54:19 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:54:19 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Thestral and Dark Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78469 As Marina and Abigail raise their glasses in a toast to the imminent reappearance of the last of the Blacks, Laura pulls up a chair and sits down, sipping at a root beer float in her hand. Oh, Abigail-oh, Marina-do you really think Sirius can come back? I so hope you're right! Abigail and Marina smiled understandingly at her, noting the BEAR clutched in her free hand and the USS SAD DENIAL brochures poking out of her pocket. "But", she said, her own happy expression faltering, "then why..." She looked down and mumbled her question into her lap. "Come on," Marina said bracingly, "let's hear it." Laura took a deep breath and blurted, "Why did JKR cry when she wrote the 'Sirius falls behind the veil' scene if she knew he wasn't really dead?" Marina and Abigail slowly lowered their glasses and looked at each other. "Maybe she was crying not for Sirius but for Harry and what he was about to suffer," Abigail suggested. "You know, Marina, food sounded good a minute ago, but now...Thanks a lot, Laura. Why are you drinking a root beer float in a bar anyway?" From tamliv at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 23 00:01:11 2003 From: tamliv at worldnet.att.net (Tamee Livingston) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 16:01:11 -0800 Subject: Gryffindor versus Slytherin References: <1061584550.43667.77004.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <063d01c36909$bec79980$43c50c0c@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 78470 In reading various discussions about whether Harry could have been Slytherin's heir or whether Percy should have been a Slytherin and whether we will ever see that rare and almost mythical creature a good Slytherin who is neither the ambiguous Snape or the portrait Phineas, it's made me think about the differences between how Slytherins and Gryffindors operate and the hostility between them. Slytherin House, speaking generally, is not only about ambition but also about subtlety and protecting their backs, leaving a way out if possible. For good and bad you see that in the way Lucius slips Ginny Riddle's diary and the way Snape reacts in Umbridge's office, as well as how he deals with Quirrel and the sideswipes he takes at Lupin (i.e. the Werewolf essay). Gryffindors, on the other hand, have a tendency to jump into things directly and bluntly. Subtle they are not. Harry's a perfect example. He does keep things to himself; however, on his own, his basic idea is charge straight ahead, and he generally relies on his instincts and first impressions. His most reckless example is of course in OOTP, where he ends up running headlong into an obvious trap, but he also decides to face Voldemort directly in the graveyard, when common sense would have told him to keep using his cover. Percy also, I think, represents Gryffindor well, in a more negative sense perhaps. I believe someone recently said something along the linesthat Percy could have been more devious with his parents, pretending to be in with them and spying for the Ministry, but it's obvious that he disdained such behavior, preferring to loudly and angrily break relations with them because he didn't approve of their siding with Dumbledore over Fudge. Personal animosity aside, I think the real reason Harry and Snape can't come to an understanding is because they react to things so differently. I think the key scene between them is the one in Umbridge's office where Harry tells Snape obliquely what he's on about and Snape does his usual sneer reaction, and Harry thinks he either can't or won't understand or do anything about it, when in fact Snape immediately heads off to find out what is going on. I think that Harry expected Snape to do a Dumbledore and take out Umbridge and her inquisitorial squad and then go charging to the rescue. That's the Gryffindor way, but it's not the Slytherin way. I hope what I've said makes some sense, and as this seems to be getting long, I'd better stop and let others draw what conclusions they may, or at least, help me untangle my own thoughts. Tamee From fc26det at aol.com Sat Aug 23 02:40:06 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 02:40:06 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78471 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maria_kirilenko" > > wrote: > > > > Laura: > > We should distinguish between what Remus (this applies to James and > Sirius and even Snape as well) was as a teenager and what hebecame as > an adult. Remus may have been on the spineless side at school (at > least toward J&S) but as an adult, he seems to me to carry a lot of > moral authority. He never hesitates to stand up to adult!Sirius and > he can keep such volatile personalities as Mad-eye, Tonks and Molly > in line. > > We don't know what the course of events was that led Remus to evolve > from a timid teen to a confident adult, but I wonder if it didn't > have something to do with James and Lily's deaths. If he believed > that Sirius was responsible, then he could have concluded that his > failure to stand up and volunteer to be secret keeper despite his > suspicions about Sirius contributed to their deaths. At that point, > he must have done some very painful self-evaluation and decided that > fighting LV was only one part of his moral responsibilities. He > found in himself (belatedly, but better than never) what DD had known > was there all along. > > I think he'd make a splendid headmaster. Of course, Snape's head > would explode...\ I agree with you Laura. I also see a lot of similarities in personalities between DD and Lupin. Both are soft spoken, both are tollerant, both see things in a totally different light than most and both trust certain individuals when others don't. I do not think that Lupin is DD's son or grandson but I have wondered if there isn't some relationship. Susan who truly does like Lupin From jmmears at comcast.net Sat Aug 23 03:30:30 2003 From: jmmears at comcast.net (serenadust) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:30:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Avery,Snape, Florence et al In-Reply-To: <20030822231529.55052.qmail@web20514.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78472 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, A Featheringstonehaugh wrote: > > > > Message: 6 > Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 17:53:05 -0000 > From: "amy_marblefeet" > Subject: TBAY: Avery, Snape, Florence and a little bit of Neville > > Amy was still on the beach surrounded by driftwood trying to comfort > poor Avery. No one seemed very interested in him, not after OotP, not > after the Fourth Man HoverCraft had been blown to pieces by the > brother-in-law of that dead sexy Mrs Lestrange. > > AF wrote: > What is this and why is it here? I tried (in vain) to follow this post and to find a discussion thread but finally gave up. A general question - aren't there fanfiction sites for this type of flight of ideas? Hi, I'd suggest you check the Humongus BigFile for the background of TBAY and how it differs from fanfic. I know they can be startling if you aren't used to it, but TBAY posts are sort of an alternative way of discussing canon and therefore perfectly legitimate on HPfGU. Here's a link http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#history Happy reading. Jo Serenadust From maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 04:01:09 2003 From: maria_kirilenko at yahoo.com (maria_kirilenko) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:01:09 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78473 Hee. I remember spending lots of time on Lupin posts this winter. Why is this a topic I just can't seem to leave alone? Anyway. Some responses, mainly to Ev vy's post. Ev vy wrote: > Frankly, I disagree with the opinion > that anything that Lupin did > was done out of cowardice. Did I miss something? Has someone actually said so? > I think that what motivated him (and > still does) is his self-preservation and > also a very strong sense of > pragmatism. I may be misunderstanding you, but I think you're saying that Lupin did not intervene during Snivellus-bullying because he knew that if he tried to stop James and Sirius, he'd lose their friendship (and possibly risk having his secret revealed) ? which was *exactly* the case, IMO. And you're calling it self-preservation and pragmatism. I suppose one can call it that, but to me, these two terms (especially "pragmatism") imply the presence of a thought-out position. Namely, that Lupin carefully evaluated the possible repercussions of him defending Snape, and came to the conclusion that he *would* lose WPP's friendship. But I find this theory implausible, mainly because it seems to me that neither James nor Sirius would pass up an opportunity to frolic in the Forbidden Forest with a werewolf during full moon, and Pragmatic!Lupin would certainly have known that. No, there is a definite element of cowardice in Lupin's inability to stand up to his friends in Pensieve Scene II. > He's very well aware of his shortcomings, i.e. > irresponsibility, sheer stupidity, inaction. I assume you're talking about Adult!Lupin's evaluation of Teenager! Lupin's behavior in Pensieve Scene II? Well then, let's look at this: "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. "Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?" (Careers Advice, OOP) Then, yes, he's aware of his shortcomings. And, if his word choice is anything to go by, he calls them "cowardice." (As an aside, I have to take issue with the "sheer stupidity" claim. Lupin's sheer stupidity made itself known in that he participated in the Full Moon Romps, but we're not discussing those right now ? are we?) But, as for this: > And he's also well > aware that given his knowledge as an adult, > he would have reacted differently. In the same situation, certainly. But his cowardice still makes itself known ? or at least, in POA. As Marina said, > Well, it was the adult Remus who kept > quiet about Sirius' Animagus > abilities and knowledge of the secret > tunnels into Hogwarts because > he was unwilling to lose Dumbledore's > regard by revealing his youthful indiscretions. Ev vy continued: > Is he a coward? I don't think so. Neither in PoA, nor in OotP Lupin > struck me as a coward. I know that "coward" is a very harsh word. But I'm having trouble coming up with a milder synonym. You see, cowardice exists in different forms. Here I'll quote Marina again, as she's ever so much more eloquent than I am: > I think the saving grace for Remus is that he's an emotional coward > rather than a physical one. We never see him cringing away from > pain or danger, or backing down from his enemies. It's his friends > he gives in to. Ev vy again: > But I wouldn't say he was afraid to > act. Think of Ron. Ron doesn't act > against his brothers, although he > has the authority. Would you call > him a coward? I wouldn't. Well, I would. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this point, although I have a nagging suspicion that out disagreement is really a disagreement about terminology, not facts. > I think both Lupin and Ron share a very > strong sense of loyalty. Lupin is > very loyal to his friends, so he simply > won't go against them. As > Ron won't go against his family. Ron's reaction to Hermione urging him to take control of the Weasley Wizard Wheezes situation IMO quite unambiguously shows that he is, in fact, afraid to curb the twins' actions. The fact that Ron's dilemma so obviously parallels Lupin's, coupled with Lupin's own admission of his gutlessness in "Career Advice," shows that Lupin is, indeed, afraid to exercise his authority over his friends. Oh, Remus made his disapproval known to James and Sirius ("you made us feel ashamed of ourselves sometimes" ? Sirius, Career Advice, OOP), but he never used his prefect status to stop them. But you're right; they both are loyal to their friends and family ? I just don't think that it's the reason for their actions, or rather, inactions. > Quite the contrary, Lupin exudes > authority in both books. He has > this quiet, strong manner that allows > him to take over the control over > the situation. Quoting Marina's answer to this: > I suspect that his current ability to keep > the people around him in line comes not > so much from increased moral > authority as from increased facility > for judging how far he can afford to go, > and which buttons he needs to push. I > think the adult Remus is a rather > manipulative man, actually. Oh, yes. Definitely. And the best phrase to illustrate Marina's words would be Lupin's "Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, Harry. A poor way to repay them ? gambling their sacrifice for a bag of magic tricks." (Snape's Grudge, POA) Ev vy, you might find Elkins's message #35040 interesting. I'll quote a bit of it that pertains to our discussion, but you really should read the whole thing, you won't regret it. >>>>>>> Even Lupin's compassion could, viewed in a certain light, make him seem a little suspicious, because it's a compassion born of sensitivity and insight, of the ability to "read" others, to deduce other people's personal vulnerabilities and motives. Lupin's very good at that; it's what makes him a good teacher. But that form of sensitivity can also be a rather unnerving trait, particularly in a paranoid situation, one in which there are *secrets* that must be kept hidden. On a certain level, an emotionally astute individual *is* a spy -- he knows your secrets...or at least he makes you feel as if he does -- and I don't think that it did much for the others' sense of security around Lupin. I think that his very sensitivity probably made him seem suspect. When we're talking about Darkness, also, I think that Lupin's sensitivity to others is one of his most suspect character traits because while wisely used that sort of sensitivity can lead to compassion, used with ill-intent it turns to sadism. If you can tell where somebody's vulnerabilities lie, then you may know how to help them, but you also really know how to *hurt* them. And while Lupin rarely uses his sensitivity cruelly, he certainly does know *how* to do it. His rebuke to Harry at the end of Chapter 14 -- "Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive..." -- is devestatingly effective. It's also slightly... Well, intent is everything here. Lupin truly believes that murderous Black is trying to hunt Harry down, and the kid really *isn't* taking the threat as seriously as he ought to be. But if Lupin's comment hadn't been delivered with such undeniably good intent, if the context had been different, then one might even be tempted to call it "vicious." Lupin really does know how to target the jugular, and there are times when I get the definite sense that he's got a bit of a taste for it as well. He's not a sadist...but he could be, and if he ever did go bad, I think that's exactly how he'd do it. >>>>>>>>> Ev vy again: > Yes, start shouting at me, Lupin was a coward. Aw, no one's going to shout. We're having a civilized discussion, that is all. > It's much easier to > say 'I was a coward' than to say > 'I wanted to see my old friend > again' (Lupin very easily accepts > Sirius's truth in PoA) or 'I > really didn't care about Snape, I > cared about my friends'. As I > said, Lupin is a pragmatist. Not > a coward, but someone who labelled > himself as one. Now, that's interesting. Could you expand on that a bit, with canonical support, if possible? I admit that I don't see any hints of such dire motives anywhere, but if you do, share them with us. > Lupin feels the wrongness of his actions, he > regrets that Sirius put Snape in danger > in the Shrieking Shack, he > understand that Snape's hate runs deeply. > But I don't think he's > repentant of he or his friends did. Er... Look, I keep getting the feeling that we're talking about different things all the time. The Prank and Snape's grudge are, at best, tangential to this discussion. What is relevant is Lupin's inaction in Pensieve Scene II and his hesitance to inform Dumbledore of Sirius's Animagus ability. But, about this comment: > But I don't think he's repentant > of [what] he or his friends did. "When he [Harry] had finished, neither Sirius nor Lupin spoke for a moment. Then Lupin said quietly, `I wouldn't like you to judge you father on what you saw there, Harry...'" (Careers Advice, OOP) I think that their behavior in that scene shows that neither one of them is particularly proud of that brilliant point in their lives. > Why? One, too many fond memories are > connected with that period, and > actually admitting that they were > wrong would undermine the > importance of those memories. Yeah, but he *did* admit they were wrong, and not only in that episode, but also in the Full Moon Romps part of their Hogwarts experience. > Two, Lupin provokes Snape in PoA. The > Boggart incident is nothing else than taunting. Yes, it's just plain taunting. And I love it. I'm not an expert on those Snape/Lupin POA interaction theories, but they are quite civil to each other most of the time. (Until the Shrieking Shack, of course.) In OOP it becomes evident that they have quite adjusted to working together within the Order. Lupin's "If anyone's going to tell Snape it will be me" phrase supports that. --------- Of course, Lupin is to be admired for his ability to admit his shortcomings, don't you think? Also, I can't help but get the feeling that JKR deliberately juxtaposes Lupin and Peter: They both share the quite unpleasant trait of being cowards, although in *very* different senses and *very* different situations. And it's not their only similarity. If I may quote one of JOdel's excellent essays (written pre-OOP), >>>>>>> James pitched in and tried to find a way to help him [Remus] through the worst of his difficulties. Sirius leaped into the project with both feet - chiefly on James's account - and because the project was such a *wonderful* challenge. (And, besides, having a friend who was an honest-to-ghod Dark Creature was just *so cool*.) Peter took a deep breath, and waded in as well, so as not to be left behind. And Remus was eternally grateful. >>>>>>> (http://www.redhen-publications.com/Padfoot,etc.html) Am I just seeing things, or is this not accidental? Is this an exploration of different types of cowardice and its possible repercussions? I am inclined to think that it is. Anyway, I'm really interested in what others think about this. Maria Alena, who can't picture Lupin as Headmaster for some reason From l10r77 at juno.com Sat Aug 23 04:27:38 2003 From: l10r77 at juno.com (l10r77) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:27:38 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3663 References: <1061554335.15903.70375.m17@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002f01c3692e$e31c4a40$49684b43@oemcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 78474 _ > From: "princesspeaette" > Subject: Percy's House > > Forgive me if this has been discussed, I searched and always came up > with either 1500 messages or 0 (darn the Yahoo powers that be!) > > > > Why isn't Percy in Slytherin? > > If the defining charcteristic of Slytherins is "use any means to > achieve their ends" (Percy sending back his mum's sweater, that's > just wrong!) "Power hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition" > (definitly sounds like Percy) and the Weasleys are pureblood wizards > as far back as anyone can remember, shouldn't he be? > > He seems like the type who's always wanted to be in the MoM, even > before Hogwarts. > > I think JKR may have missed her chance for 'the good slytherin' here > (assuming he shows some major redeeming qualities, including an > apology for the sweater, in the last two books, until then, I'm > counting him as evil-by-lack-of-goodness) > > > ~Margaret > who hopes Percy comes back and if not, hopes he's the Weasley who > dies (if one really has to) I agree with you Margaret. I've asked this before...isn't anyone concerned that Harry found Percy reading a book called "Prefects Who Gained Power" or some subject to that liking? It happened in PS/SS, I believe. My personal opinion is that Percy has his head stuck so far up his you know what that he sees things in black and white terms. You're either with the MoM or against it. He can't see it any other way. I think he was placed in Gryffindor on precedence...Charlie/Bill. It is my understanding that the Sorting Hat does not know definitely which house a student belongs it, it just makes its best guess. If it knew Charlie and Bill, or remembered them for that fact, the Hat may just have grouped him as a Weasley. Lisa From yswahl at stis.net Sat Aug 23 04:37:41 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (yale sam wahl) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 00:37:41 -0400 Subject: Harry's Power is Self-sacrifice References: <1061584550.43667.77004.m19@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002001c36930$53f026a0$89cafea9@yale> No: HPFGUIDX 78475 I have read the arguments here for love, hope, etc. but the one power that I believe is being referred to is self-sacrifice. His mom gave up her life for Harry, and Harry has time and again been willing to sacrifice himself if it means saving others. GOF - the underwater rescue of hostages not his own in the Second Task of GOF (gof 499 - "Your task is to retrieve your own friend .... leave the others...") and he stays to help Fleur's little sister even after Krum and Cedric leave. OOP - his attempted rescue of Sirius at all costs ( though he didnt fully appreciate the danger to his friends) SS - the rescue of Hermione from the giant troll It is also in Ron (SS the knight sacrifice in the chess game) I dont think that these are to be confused with courage -- self sacrifice is much more intense - and final. And clearly LV has none of this quality. He strives for life more than anything - even resorting to killing unicorns and occupying the bodies of others. Harry has none of this survival urge. These are just examples that quickly come to mind - there are probably many more .. As to why Self-Sacrifice would merit its own room and study area at the oM - i would think that many wizards would have trouble confronting their own feelings about self sacrifice and what event or person would prompt them to give up their own lives for someone else... not like playing with boggarts to imitate dementors. samnanya From terryljames at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 04:54:06 2003 From: terryljames at hotmail.com (terryljames76) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:54:06 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Thestral and Dark Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78476 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > Laura took a deep breath and blurted, "Why did JKR cry when she wrote > the 'Sirius falls behind the veil' scene if she knew he wasn't really > dead?" Marina and Abigail slowly lowered their glasses and looked at > each other. "Maybe she was crying not for Sirius but for Harry and > what he was about to suffer," Abigail suggested. "You know, Marina, > food sounded good a minute ago, but now...Thanks a lot, Laura. Why > are you drinking a root beer float in a bar anyway?" Laura ignored this dig at her chosen drink, and the arrival of their food, and leaned in closer to her two companions to hiss, "Look. That guy over there. He's been watching you ever since you came in here." Marina and Abigail looked over furtively at the cloaked and hooded figure who sat at a dark table. Only the sudden glow of coals in his pipe could be seen in the shadows. "Hey," Marina whispered. "Isn't that--" Another figure leaned forward from the shadows of the far table. "Well, it's been great, but you're in the wrong canon. I think you'd better go now." The hooded figure stood up with a dramatic swirl of his cloak, briefly revealing a broken sword-hilt, and strode away as Terry approached the table where the three sat. "How y'all doin'?" she greeted them. "I couldn't help but overhear--" This obvious transitional statement was interrupted by the arrival of a huge slobbering dog. Barking excitedly, he seemed determined to lick Abigail to death. "I told you, Prank, get off!" she yelled, brushing futilely at the ever-growing collection of dog hair on her formerly smart little black dress. Marina and Laura got George's attention and together, they managed to haul the enthusiastic dog away. When they turned their attention back to Terry, they found her sitting on top of the table. "How much butterbeer have you had, anyway?" Marina said suspiciously, remembering the time Terry had climbed up on the bar and tried to serenade the assembly. "None, honestly," Terry denied. "I'm sticking to root beer from now on. I'm just scared silly of dogs. Fidophobia or something." "Well, he's gone now, so come on down," Abigail urged. "No, that's OK." Terry wrapped her arms tightly around her legs and shuddered. "I'm fine right here, I'm actually kinda comfortable. So anyway, about Sirius. Marina's right, you know. DENIALists don't believe that Sirius will come back from the dead; we just don't think he's dead. Which is why I've asked Dobby to take down all that silly black crepe paper. There's a massive party going on over there; we need decorations to match. Dobby thought black was appropriate, given the family name, but it's led to a lot of misunderstanding." She wiggled around on the table a bit and continued, "Laura, you've brought up a point many have raised. Why did JKR say that she cried when she wrote that scene? Now, here's the thought I had. We know that the plots of the books are already thought out, and we know that at least the last sentence of the last book is written. I think it's reasonable to assume that some parts of the other books are written. For example, if Dumbledore dies in Book 6, that part may already be written." "OK, I follow you so far," Laura said doubtfully. She looked dolefully at the remains of her float, which had landed on the floor in Terry's mad scramble. Marina signaled for George to bring her another one. "So, since everyone already knew there was going to be a death in Book 5, JKR may have seen this question as a perfect opportunity to mislead everyone." Terry looked up apprehensively as a crowd of newcomers swept through the door and the sound of distant barking was heard. "When she spoke about writing 'the death', she may have been speaking about someone else's entirely. Someone who, on our radar, hasn't died yet." "But isn't there a quote from JKR which says-" "Hey, I'm still pretty new around here," Terry interrupted. "I'm not yet up to speed on all my interviews and quotes. If you find a relevant quote, please owl me. I'll be happy to refine my theory. But if it makes you feel better, I got this idea from something JKR already did." "Huh?" Abigail, who had been perusing Marina's SAD DENIAL leaflet, looked up. "Where did she claim somebody was dead who wasn't?" Ignoring Marina's cough of "Peter!", Terry shook her head. "Not that. The misleading statements. Before OOP was released, someone asked her if Gilderoy Lockhart would be back. Her answer was something along the lines of, Gilderoy was still in St. Mungo's, getting his memory back, so he would be far too busy and confused to come to Hogwarts. Which turned out to be exactly true, but still very misleading. The questioner really meant, would we see Lockhart again, and JKR avoided answering that one very neatly. CONSTANT VIGILANCE!" she barked, and George, bringing Laura's second root beer float, jumped. "Sorry," he said apologetically, handing a towel to Abigail, who mopped at her forlorn dress speechlessly. "Here, ma'am, I'll get you another," he added to Laura. "I guess you'll just have to go shopping," Terry said sympathetically to Abigail. "Is there a mall around here? Which reminds me. I've been reading the reviews about your new piece. Can I come to the showing? I've always found three-dimensional conceptualized abstract thingies to be just fascinating." Without waiting for an answer, she turned to Marina, which was probably fortunate, as she missed Abigail's rising eyebrows and silently mouthed, *Thingies*? "Hey, does this place serve pizza?" "It did," Marina answered, looking at the table. "You're sitting in it." Terry LJ From foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 03:54:16 2003 From: foxydoxy1 at yahoo.com (FoxyDoxy) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:54:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Owl deliveries (Was: How The Heck Did Hedwig Deliver Harry's Post?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030823035416.91572.qmail@web20507.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78477 Grey Wolf wrote: >I have long suspected that owls do not travel by our normal space when delivering, but rather travel through some sort of "parallel" space where distances are the same but there is no obstacles. I call that O-Space (readers of Terry Pratchett might catch the reference).< (snip) >So an owl will always find its destination, and yet no-one thought of sending a note to Sirius ("Gotcha!" would be appropiate) and following the owl to him, so this is either a flint or - much more likely- owls have magical powers that allow them to go places where no-one can follow. This could include getting directly into Grimmauld Place. In fact, I can imagine Dumbledore setting a provision for owls to get in directly. This accomplishes two things - faster mailing and reduced danger of discovery, since they don't have to keep coming in and out for the mail.< FoxyDoxy: I really like this "parallel space" idea. But now I'm wondering who attacked Hedwig if she wasn't being followed? Could it be Evil!Lupin because Hedwig wouldn't give him Harry's letter. Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From impherring13 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 03:46:08 2003 From: impherring13 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:46:08 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: <20030822104036.74160.qmail@web40012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78478 SD- > Why then was Myrtle killed when viewing the basilisk straight through her glasses > (CS 16)? Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, she should only have > been petrified because of her glasses just as the camera and Nick > saved the other two. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ephrem- > I can say a majority of people who wear glasses will take them off if they're crying for a long period of time so they can wipe their eyes more frequently and easily. So it's a possibility that she wasn't wearing them when she was attacked. Now me- I thought of this possibility too, however if she hadn't been wearing her glasses, how would she know that she had seen the eyes? Wouldn't it have been just a blur. Also if she were not wearing her glasses when she died,she wouldn't have had them as a ghost, would she? Back on the topic of the camera lens and the distortion it causes, would a person who is nearsighted (and therefore has distorted vision) die? -SD From sues0101 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 01:58:20 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 01:58:20 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry's Power Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78479 Del, wrote: >- it's a power Voldemort detests so much he can't reside in a body >full of it : it was the joy Harry felt at the idea of seeing Sirius >again that kicked LV out of Harry's body. And that joy came from that >deep hope that Harry nurtured, that the people who go through the >veil are still alive somewhere somehow. Moreover, Hope is the worst >enemy of any tyrant : as long as people keep hoping that things can >get better, they can't be crushed. They can be isolated, tortured, or >whatever, as long as they have hope, they keep fighting. So for >someone like Voldemort, Hope would be the worst feeling people can >feel, because it keeps them fighting against him, no matter how >powerful he gets. > >So what do you think ? Am I completely off-track or what ? Shoot >away ! > >Del > Sue writes: Gosh Del, I think you are right! I have been thinking over and over that 'love' didn't seem to be quite the right emotion for that paragraph. It just didn't fit somehow. I agree that Harry's mother may have give him some protection in sacrificing her life for his, but the 'hope' emotion is definitely a pervading emotion of Harry's psyche and all the meetings he has had with Voldemort. Even though Harry has many problems and other emotions to deal with, I don't see any evidence yet that he has lost hope that things will get better. Even though he now knows that he will either have to defeat Voldemort or die himself, he has not just given up. He doesn't yet know what to do, or how he will do it, or even what the outcome will be, BUT there is no loss of hope, just a struggle to accept his fate of either being killed or killer. So, no bullets from here, in fact I will stand beside you and help fend off the sharpshooters! :) Sue _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail is now available on Australian mobile phones. Go to http://ninemsn.com.au/mobilecentral/signup.asp From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Sat Aug 23 23:24:24 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 09:24:24 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat) References: Message-ID: <012501c369d0$64c286d0$6a984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 78480 severusbook4 at yahoo.com wrote > the section of book you are talking about is quite misleading in my > opinion. Harry starts out by saying that the hat was wrong, does he > mean that he thinks he belongs in the Slytherin house and was not > suppose to be in Gryffindohr? And the had says it stands by it's > choice, and but says he would have done well in Slytherin, it is > slightly misleading. Harry asks DD about his own doubts of being in > the right house, and DD replies only a true Gryff could have pull > the sword out of the hat. Does that mean Harry was saying the hat > was wrong for putting him in G or that it was wrong for suggesting S? > Nothing seems to suggest either, and we are left wondering, maybe > another of JKR's rather misty things that may be used later for some > kind of confirmation? And remember DD says we are defind by the > choices we make. And Harry chose not to go into Slytherin. Interesting. I'd always read this as as Harry telling the SH it was wrong for suggesting he'd be suited to Slytherin, since he was denying (or trying to) having anything in common with Slytherins, despite grudgingly admitting to DD he noticed that he shared several traits with Tom Riddle. He made his choice not to go the way of Riddle when he told the hat "Not Slytherin. Anything but Slytherin." But now that you mention it, the passage could be read another way entirely... Like that infernal prophesy. Nox ~ It's a thankless job; but I've got a lot of karma to burn off... From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 21:42:14 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:42:14 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78481 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bubbaqrib" wrote: > Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of > Slytherin? As far as I know, the only evidence that Harry is not the heir of Slytherin is that Tom Riddle was able to open the Chamber of Secrets, proving that he (Voldemort) is the heir of Slytherin. That's assuming, of course, that there is only one heir of Slytherin. I also believe Harry to be the heir of Gryffindor, for various reasons (his parents come from Godric Hollow, as in Godric Gryffindor, and numerous things that Dumbledore has said to Harry, such as "only a true Gryffindor could pull that out of the hat" after he get Gryffindor's sword from the sorting hat). But is that to say that Harry can't be both the heir of Gryffindor and the heir of Slytherin? His mom, Lily, was in Slytherin House, wasn't she? Anyway, after the last book, I'm certainly intrigued to see what kind of role Neville will play in all of this. Did Voldemort mess up when he tried to kill Harry? Should he have gone after Neville instead? Is he the true heir after all?? From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Aug 22 21:09:54 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 21:09:54 -0000 Subject: Gay characters (Was "Harry's Sexual preference") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78482 --- say543 wrote: > > What if there is a gay character in there already? > And no, not Harry. Has anyone thought that Tonks > might be gay? .... With much respect for all the strong feelings that have been expressed on this thread, and without meaning to refuel any fires, I think it would be rather odd if there were *not* any characters in the books who could be read as gay. In addition to her thematic rejection of prejudice, JKR has made an obvious effort to portray Hogwarts and her WW as a diverse society (witness, e.g., the ethnic diversity apparent in the surnames of the Hogwarts students). It would be out of keeping with that diversity, and with the fundamental principles she seems to be espousing thematically, for JKR to visualize the WW as entirely straight. I don't expect books 6 and 7 to make an issue out of sexual preference, but I would not be at all surprised if our young protagonists begin to notice the range of romantic relationships taking place around them as they get older. -- Matt From hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 20:51:26 2003 From: hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com (say543) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:51:26 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78483 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bubbaqrib" wrote: > Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of > Slytherin? > > I ask this question first based on the statement by JKR that one > scene had to stay in CoS because it was important long term to the > story. I'm thinking of the scene where Hermione says "Harry for all > we know you could be the heir of Slytherin". I'm also struck by > this because of Hermione's track record on statements like this. Like what? It seems to me it is Ron who makes this sort of speculative but joking things that actually come true. Can you give examples of Hermione's track record? > Second I ask this because Harry is a Parselmouth. He often has been > mentioned with snake like terms. Example is Malfoy in front of > Fudge and there has been other casual reference to snakes in suttle > ways. I don't know about all of you, but I'm satisfied with the explanation already given - that he got it from Voldemort. > Third is the sorting hat it wanted to put Harry in Slytherin. But > he wasn't because of the choices he made not because of who he is. > The sorting hat in OoP talks about uniting the school what better > way to truely unite the school then if Harry was the heir of > Slytherin. That would bring the house together. I think it wanted to put Harry in Slytherin because of his "nice thirst to prove himself." Harry was brought up being pushed down so often, he just wanted to rise up for once. That's a slytherin-type quality. Hesdead-dealwithit From hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 20:02:39 2003 From: hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com (say543) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 20:02:39 -0000 Subject: Ouroboros In-Reply-To: <006601c368d8$e3ff7460$db7d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78484 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > First thing I wonder about is that the time turner cabinet doesn't seem to > work that way - the DE that got in the way of it didn't physically disappear > back in time (not even his head...), just got younger. hesdead-dealwithit(aka say543) Actually, the DE fell into the bell jar, not the time turner cabinet - that fell and shattered then picked itself up again then fell and shattered . . . It is my opinion that there must be some sort of Time Machine in the Time Room. We haven't gone throught all the doors nor known what everything in the Time Room is. So your point is taken - there is no time machine that would send someone back in time so far. But we really do not know at all how anything in the time room works or what it does, so whether or not there is some sort of machine that sends someone back in time is not really up for argument right now - it is impossible to know whether or not there is one. > Second thing I wonder about is, given the physical changes that have > happened to Voldemort, by what means he would have become a close friend of > Godric Gryffindor before the Founding? doesn't say much for Godric's taste > in friends! hesdead-dealwithit: Well, I think it's kind of shady that Godric and Salazar friends in the first place! I'm confident that if Salazar/LV tried to become his friend, he could. Plus, as one of the most pwerful wizards of all time, Salazar/LV would naturally be one of the founders, and it makes sense that he would be more of Slytherin's friend that Rowena's or Helga's. Any other ideas from anyone else? Any holes you can punch through it? Post 'em! hesdead-dealwithit From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Aug 22 18:59:09 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 18:59:09 -0000 Subject: Narcissa Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78485 I've often wondered about Narcissa's relationship to Lily and Petunia. I know she's on the tapestry with Andromeda and Bellatrix, but I've always felt that JKR was giving us some kind of clue regarding Narcissa because her name, like the sisters Lily and Petunia, is that of a flower. No one else in the wizarding world seems to be named this way. Can it ba a clue that she may be somehow related to Lily, or could it possibly be a clue that she is simply a Deatheater counterpart of Lily's, the way Harry and Draco seem to be light/dark counterparts? From hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com Fri Aug 22 19:54:11 2003 From: hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com (say543) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 19:54:11 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay: Ouroboros in HP? (Pretty long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78486 > KathyK: > I think that Voldemort's taking Trelawney's partial prophecy to heart > (or whatever he has in its place) can be explained much more simply > than that. The eavesdropper tells Voldemort the part of the prophecy > that he overheard. Voldemort loves power and fears death. > > Upon hearing that there is someone out there with the potential to > destroy or even kill him, he does everything he can to ensure that > this child will not succeed. So he goes after Harry. Simple, and it > doesn't involve all the headaches that time travel and extra > prophecies create. The prophecy we have now is ambiguous enough > without throwing more into the mix, I believe. > > Besides, we don't know the eavesdropper or Voldemort knows anything > about Trelawney. How would they know she was a fraud? And even if > they did find out, I don't think it would matter because Voldemort's > fear of death runs deep and he wouldn't take any chances with a > prophecy. > ********** hesdead-dealwithit: Theory doesn't HAVE to be the reason LV paid attention to Trelawney. It's just that it is an interesting byproduct of the theory that he WOULD listen to it undoubtedly. > KathyK: > Just an irrelevant question, but why wouldn't Harry be good at memory > charms? And how do we know Lockhart's memory would come back at all > if he'd had a proper wand at the time rather than Ron's busted one? > Of course, Ron and Harry would be the ones in St Mungo's, but you > know what I mean. Look at Bertha Jorkins. Crouch Sr. put such a > strong memory charm on her that it permanently damaged her memory > even though he was only out to destroy one memory. And Voldemort and > Wormtail were only able to get at her missing memory by destroying > the woman. > ********** hesdead-dealwithit It seems to me that Ron's wand only resulted in the spell firing backward, not being weakened. And if it wasn't weakened, the fact that the memory came back after being obliviated by one of the most experienced users of the memory charm is pretty revealing. Also, Crouch's charm did not damage her memory - she was forgetful before that. Only when LV extracted the memory from her, it resulted in her being destroyed and useless - but not killed. There is no reason that before LV got to her her memory wouldn't have started to come back from what Crouch charmed her about. > ********** > KathyK: > I love stories about time travel. It's just the logistics of it that > give me a headache, making me think in circles. Like this, for > instance. Lord Voldemort reads anti-muggle "prophecies" in the > normal HP timeline that are attributed to Salazar Slytherin. In the > meantime, he uses these prophecies to go after Harry when he hears > Trelwaney's own prophecy about him. > > In the final battle, Harry obliviates him, or doesn't, and somehow > sends him back 1000 years to the time of the Hogwarts founders where > he becomes Salazar Slytherin. As Slytherin, he writes > the "prophecies" that he himself read in the far future (but in his > own past). I'm with you so far. He does this in an attempt to help > himself to kill Harry before Harry has a chance to vanquish him like > it says in Trelwaney's prophecy. > > And this is where I get completely lost and befuddled. Feel free to > explain it to me. If Voldemort knows he's just going to end up back > in the past, why does he write the "prophecies" at all? Why can't he > change what he writes to say, "Don't kill the baby, wait until he's > older," or something similar? > > I know, I know, they've already been written so they cannot be > changed. But I just don't get it. How does he think writing the > exact same thing will help him in the future? Why can't he write > something different? Does he think the future Voldemort will > interpret Slytherin's writing differently and be able to change the > future/past? If he didn't change his fate, what makes him think his > next self will? > ********** hesdead-dealwithit: LV/Slytherin CANNOT change what he wants to write. The prophecies have been written and cannot be changed. Plus, since his memory was destroyed, he has only regained a partial account of what happened to him. So maybe he could tell LV not to kill the boy, and to wait, but since LV came back anyway, it wouldn't matter. Slytherin would write everything that he could remember that could be useful to LV, including the fact that if LV killed Harry, the timeline would be broken and LV could not be vanquished by anyone else. He would become invincible. > >>>If Harry was dead, the only one that could vanquish the Dark Lord > is gone, and LV would live forever.<<< > > ********** > KathyK: > Why can't he live forever beginning from Slytherin's time? He hasn't > got Harry around to make life difficult. Or is it, as you say a > little later, that he ceases to be Lord Voldemort because he's gone > to a different time an assumed a different name. In that case, do we > think Salazar Slytherin is still alive somewhere in Harry's time? > Could he have taught himself some of the deep, dark, magic Voldemort > learns? hesdead-dealwithit No. Once LV becomes Slytherin, he is no longer the Dark Lord that Trelawney mentions. He will die at a normal time. But yes, he could teach himself some of the dark deep magic that LV learns, and he would put it in the prophecies for LV to come across. > Your theory is interesting, I just have a hard time wrapping my mind > around it. Just to set the record straight, because I don't want to take credit for what is not mine, this theory is not mine but was created by Auri de Mir on cosforums.com (Spoiler>Predictions and Theories>Ouroboros). Any other thoughts on this theory? hesdead-dealwithit From susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 22 15:11:52 2003 From: susiequsie23 at sbcglobal.net (cubfanbudwoman) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 15:11:52 -0000 Subject: years between books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78487 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Why is everyone saying that there is going to be a wait of several > years before we get Book 6. Is this official or just wild guesswork, > based on the time between Books 4 and 5? I understood that Book 6 > was going to be much shorter than the two previous ones, so I hardly > think a wait of years is likely. God, I hope not. especially as > there probably WILL be a healthy gap between Books 6 and 7. > Please say it isn't so. > Sylvia I don't know anything official other than that JKR said she was glad she had insisted upon NO set deadlines for books 5, 6 & 7. That being said, wouldn't you think from things she's said that #5 was so pivotal that it just took really long? That PLUS having put out FB and QTTA AND having gotten married AND having had a baby? It's no wonder it took three years! At least those are *my* rationalizations [read: hopes!] for why it won't take so long between 5 & 6. Siriusly Snapey Susan From hpfanmatt at gmx.net Fri Aug 22 13:04:20 2003 From: hpfanmatt at gmx.net (Matt) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 13:04:20 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Comment to Harry at the Ministry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78488 --- slytherin_jenn asks: > I've been trying to make some sense of this > ever since I first read OoP and nothing has > come to me yet. The scene right after the > ministry hearing where Malfoy is talking to > Fudge and Harry and Mr. Weasley see them, > Malfoy says (p. 154 US version) "quite > astonishing, the way you continue to wriggle > out of very tight holes....*snakelike*, in > fact(emphasis on snakelike by JKR)" I'm > wondering what this quote means & would love > to hear your comments. I can't remember what I thought when I read it in context, but reading it here, it sounds like a reference to Harry being a Parselmouth. Remember that, at the time, the Ministry -- presumably with LM's blessing and support -- is actively encouraging all sorts of rumors to discredit Harry and DD. Anything that subtly reminds people of Harry's inauspicious talent -- and perhaps also the dueling incident with Justin -- would help feed those rumors. In fact, doesn't just such an account make it into one of the Daily Prophet stories that year, or am I misattributing one of the stories recounted in GF? -- Matt From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Fri Aug 22 04:12:46 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2003 04:12:46 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78489 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" wrote: > > Sue: > Of course people should lighten up, especially as we aren't talking world > peace here. Personally, I think differing opinions are terrific. As > long as people who disagree with an opinion only disagree with the opinion > and don't start attacking the person things will stay civilised. The poster > who added that he/she was a Christian and thinks homosexuality is evil is > quite entitled to that opinion but that doesn't make those of us who > disagree evil, and we shouldn't be made to feel that we are. > I have to agree. I've read so many posts or articles from people rambling on and on about how the Potter books are dragging the world deeper into the abyss of hell. I can tell these people can't read about a 3rd grade level, which I think these books are more like a 5th grade level. :) I say this because had they read the books, they'd see they were about good winning over evil or at least kicking its butt real good. Its also about love, friendship and loyalty. How is that evil? > I personally don't think that JK will have any gay characters in her book - > not a main character > anyway. > I do have to agree, but she has made some hints that I think can't really be ignored. Percy is obvious to me. The way he's written in the books, he's gotta be gay, since I can picture him walking around with his nose in the air all the time, being a "drama queen". :) Heck, even Ron shows little intrest in girls that I can see. Other than the one comment to a girl about wanting to see "uranus". :) Even that could mean he's a bum man, or a shirt-lifter, as they say in the UK. : > At the risk of throwing the cat among the pidgeons here, *evil > grin*, I have to reply to the poster who said that Harry had never ever > indicated > that there might be a boy he was interested in, and disagree. In GoF, > Harry meets Bill for the first time (p. 50) and is surprised by his > appearance. > "Bill was, there was no other word for it - cool." Harry has never > thought this about another wizard hehe. > > There are a couple of mentions about Bill in the OoTP too, which > were added that didn't need to be there, that shows Harry was at least > thinking > about Bill. I'll have to go find them again. There was one about some > wizard's hair being as long as Bill's, or longer, and something else I can't > remember exactly > what, but something. I know mention was also made on OoTP that Bill was > giving > Fleur 'private lessons' in English just after Harry asked if Bill was at > headquarters (p.67). > I agree. He really did fall for Bill, didn't he. :) I know Ron worships him and Charlie as well, but Harry's reaction was almost like what I've seen in some sappy Mary Sue ficcies. :) Jeff From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sat Aug 23 05:42:56 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 05:42:56 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78490 Laura wrote: > You bring up a tricky question. It is generally agreed, except among > the ESE!Lupin crazies that Lupin is fundamentally a good person > and was as a teenager as well. He seems to be vulnerable to sins of > omission, especially where they concern his personal welfare, but in > the balance he comes out on the good side. So why, then, did he not > blow the whistle on Sirius in PoA if he truly felt that Harry was in > danger? In PoA, Lupin says he had convinced himself that Sirius was using Dark Arts learned from Voldemort in order to enter the castle. I'm sure if Lupin had heard reports of a large black dog on the grounds, he would have gone immediately to Dumbledore. However, as things were, he felt that revealing this secret would do nothing to protect Harry. Going to Dumbledore would only result in the loss of a trust Lupin desperately wanted. Needed, even, considering he could possibly lose his job over this, hurting both himself and Harry (who could consequently not continue his anti-dementor lessons). -Corinth From yswahl at stis.net Sat Aug 23 05:43:52 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 05:43:52 -0000 Subject: years between books In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78491 "Steve" wrote: I suspect now that things are somwhat back to normal, she should be able to spend more time writing. I know in a couple of interviews she said she already had a good start on book 6, so I'm agreeing with everyone else; new book in a year to a year and a half. ...or at least, that's what I'm hoping for. Me: I certainly hope the books will come sooner - the series is a lot farther along, and the longer the wait, the more likely someone will figure out a significant part of what will happen. It is truly amazing that in all the years the HP books have been in print, and with the millions of readers and dozens of websites analyzing every syllable of every book and every nuance of every JKR interview, there have been virtually no errors and no major "leaks" or "give aways" of the plot structure -- an EXTRAORDINARY FEAT for books this heavily analyzed and anticipated. Now that 5 of the 7 books have been published, the plot paths by necessity have been much more clearly defined and with clearer directions, even if DD has not necessarily told Harry EVERYTHING. It is also probably too late to introduce any new meaningful major characters, especially after she has said that "all the clues are out there" (probably her only mistake so far - "Shouldnt have said that ....." as Hagrid was always saying...). I just feel that JKR may suprise us as to how fast this book will be completed because above all else, she still want to maintain her ability to suprise and entertain her readers -- an ability that may become superhuman if she delays publishing the book too long. And plenty of people want to know exactly who or what was Rosebud to keep it a secret for long once the "clues" have been publicised and the rumors begin. I am hoping for a publishing date right around one of the two solstices next year .... 777 samnanya From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 06:01:50 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 06:01:50 -0000 Subject: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78493 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Severus here: > > the section of book you are talking about is quite misleading in my > opinion. Harry starts out by saying that the hat was wrong, does he > mean that he thinks he belongs in the Slytherin house and was not > suppose to be in Gryffindohr? And the had says it stands by it's > choice, and but says he would have done well in Slytherin, it is > slightly misleading. Harry asks DD about his own doubts of being in > the right house, and DD replies only a true Gryff could have pull > the sword out of the hat. Does that mean Harry was saying the hat > was wrong for putting him in G or that it was wrong for suggesting S? > Nothing seems to suggest either, and we are left wondering, maybe > another of JKR's rather misty things that may be used later for some > kind of confirmation? And remember DD says we are defind by the > choices we make. And Harry chose not to go into Slytherin. > > Severus "Gothic Nutter" Snape D says: In SS, the hat does not bring up Slytherin until Harry says he doesn't want to go there. If you remember, the hat describes many of Harry's qualities. Each quality goes to one of the different houses. When Harry asks not to be put in Slytherin, the hat asks if he is sure. Then places Harry in Slytherin. In CoS, the hat stands by what he said, but does not say he would have definately placed Harry in Slytherin, just that he would have done well there. I also think that the hat is confirming the house he did put Harry into. D From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 06:22:38 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 06:22:38 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78494 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bubbaqrib" > wrote: > > Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of > > Slytherin? > > As far as I know, the only evidence that Harry is not the heir of > Slytherin is that Tom Riddle was able to open the Chamber of Secrets, > proving that he (Voldemort) is the heir of Slytherin. That's assuming, > of course, that there is only one heir of Slytherin. > > I also believe Harry to be the heir of Gryffindor, for various reasons > (his parents come from Godric Hollow, as in Godric Gryffindor, and > numerous things that Dumbledore has said to Harry, such as "only a > true Gryffindor could pull that out of the hat" after he get > Gryffindor's sword from the sorting hat). But is that to say that > Harry can't be both the heir of Gryffindor and the heir of Slytherin? > His mom, Lily, was in Slytherin House, wasn't she? > > Anyway, after the last book, I'm certainly intrigued to see what kind > of role Neville will play in all of this. Did Voldemort mess up when > he tried to kill Harry? Should he have gone after Neville instead? Is > he the true heir after all?? D says: Sorry for the short reply, but didn't DD say that Tom Riddle was the last descendant of Slytherin? D - who is in a major bout of insomnia, so forgive me if I am a little incoherent From risako at nexusanime.com Sat Aug 23 06:25:54 2003 From: risako at nexusanime.com (Melissa McCarthy) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:25:54 -0300 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narcissa References: Message-ID: <02da01c3693f$68929980$6601a8c0@vaio> No: HPFGUIDX 78495 entropymail said: > I've often wondered about Narcissa's relationship to Lily and Petunia. > I know she's on the tapestry with Andromeda and Bellatrix, but I've > always felt that JKR was giving us some kind of clue regarding > Narcissa because her name, like the sisters Lily and Petunia, is that > of a flower. No one else in the wizarding world seems to be named > this way. Actually, flower names seem to be quite common for witches. Lavender Brown. Pansy Parkinson. Madam Poppy Pomfrey. Fleur Delacour. Olive Hornby. Moaning Myrtle. The Fat Lady's friend Violet. Rose Zeller. Daisy Pennifold (I just got QTTA!). There are probably more, but that's all I can remember right now. > Can it ba a clue that she may be somehow related to Lily, or could it > possibly be a clue that she is simply a Deatheater counterpart of > Lily's, the way Harry and Draco seem to be light/dark counterparts? I don't think she's related to Lily; I think the Evanses really are "just" Muggles (which doesn't preclude the idea of Petunia or Dudley being the one to develop magic late in life, of course). But I like that second idea... I like it a lot. Melissa From darkthirty at shaw.ca Sat Aug 23 07:36:17 2003 From: darkthirty at shaw.ca (lunalovegoodrules) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 07:36:17 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known in the END, BIC LIGHTER continues In-Reply-To: <20030822212629.64771.qmail@web12201.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78496 Let me, as the the theorist of BIC LIGHTER and ANOTHER HARRY, point out that, in my presentation "eons ago" regarding the boy in the closet, that I never stated, or implied, that Rowling would ever say "and he woke up and it was all a dream." That is clearly a misreading of the theory. See message 43358 for the beginning of the theory I presented. This is a reading of Rowling, not a "guess" at the end of the series. It IS the series, from the start, right now, and in the future, in a manner of speaking. What originally lead me to this reading was the peculiar, particular and problematic role that knowledge plays in Rowling. This theory has been developed, in more recent, post-OOP posts, to include the idea of liberation, not through some alchemical manipulation, but through the practice of a clear ethical imperative, "self-sacrific", as one recent poster has it, though I wouldn't call it that. Just as Wang Wei, on his way home from shopping, saw the tanks at Tienamen Square and stood in front of them, so Harry, for example, in the very centre of the series, in the centre of the middle book, in the centre of the Triwizard, decides to save the other "most valuable" people in the lake, not because of some moral reasoning, nor philosophical premise, but because it's "what needs to be done", in Harry's eyes. The movie Whale Rider is another good example of this ethical imperative at work. But the greatest magic there is not talking to whales, but that the society honors such behaviour as Paikea performs. Astounding! Generally, it is unappreciated, or even seen as dangerous, or, in Harry's case, as "thick." Now that Harry ostensibly knows the prophecy, and Dumbledore has ostensibly come clean, rather more dirtily than the simplest reading could have imagined, has this reading changed? Has the problem of knowledge been addressed? Has it been altered? The greatest addition to the theory is, in my estimation, the introduction of Luna. Partly, perhaps, she is a creation aimed at the so-called new age, but she is also, I take Rowling at her word here, the anti-Hermione. She relates directly to the Harry that has so rarely appeared in the series, the purely imaginary, outside the books Harry, third Harry, as I call him, liberated Harry. In OOP, for instance, Harry's contact with her, at the end, supplies us with the only real moment of openess, of opening. The door opens a crack. Strangely, in that other world, the Witchwizard world, this flakey kid Luna looks right at us, as if she can see us. Her gaze is purely of this world! How is this possible? Yet, it is so. Luna has been introduced because, somehow, she is essential to the liberation of the boy in the closet - and remember, this closet may be an actual closet, it may be spiritual, it may be emotional, it may be intellectual, but the boy is definitely in it. My guess, if I have to have one, is that the boy will be liberated from this closet almost without our knowing it, somehow almost a side effect of the series resolution. But the theory doesn't require any ending at all. The reading exists from page one of book one. It is a complete misreading of my theory to even connect it with some "ending". dan From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sat Aug 23 07:51:22 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 03:51:22 -0400 Subject: Rookwood and Potter Message-ID: <3F471CFA.7020405@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78497 I've run across a connection between the names Rookwood and Potter. It is almost certainly pure coincidence, but it is amusing. In 1880 Maria Longworth Nichol started an amateur pottery club in Cincinnati. She named it after her father's, Nicholas Longworth's, estate, Rookwood. Eventually it became the Rookwood Pottery Company, which survived until 1967. So Rookwood was a Potter. From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sat Aug 23 07:54:34 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 07:54:34 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78498 Ephrem- > > I can say a majority of people who wear glasses will take them off > if they're crying for a long period of time so they can wipe their > eyes more frequently and easily. So it's a possibility that she > wasn't wearing them when she was attacked. > > Dave- > I thought of this possibility too, however if she hadn't been > wearing her glasses, how would she know that she had seen the eyes? Wearing glasses doesn't make you blind without them. There is no canon for the vision quality of Myrtle. I myself wear glasses but can see colours and shapes quite far away. What I cannot is *read* at a distance (making catching buses a bother, as well as reading blackboards and such). All Myrtle had to see was the eyes of a giant (20+ feet long) snake at a distance of maybe 6-10 feet. That is *very* easy. To not see the eyes at that distance, you'd have to be *very* shortsighted (and of course, we cannot forget that she might be, for all we know, longsighted - i.e. need the glasses to read). > Wouldn't it have been just a blur. Also if she were not wearing her > glasses when she died,she wouldn't have had them as a ghost, would > she? No, that's not true. NH Nick frequently changes clothes, and it is downright unlikely (and unbelievable) that he was wearing all those sorts of clothes when he died. Besides, if Myrtle was crying and had taken the glasses off, she would've still been holding them in her hand. > Back on the topic of the camera lens and the distortion it > causes, would a person who is nearsighted (and therefore has > distorted vision) die? > -SD A (reflex) camara has a prism inside it that sends the image up into a mirror which then reflects it onto the person's eye. In essence, there are two mirrors inside a camara, which is why Colin got stoned and not killed. Besides, lens don't cause distortion (unless they're unfocused) but deliver a clear image (yes, there is no canon for a reflex camara, but Colin is fanatical enough to have a proper reflex camara. Besides, they're not that expensive, if it is your main hooby, even for a milkman). And of course, we're back to the problem of just how blind Myrtle is. Many people wear glasses with minor eye problems, and of course it was a giant snake (thus, with giant eyes) at a relatively short distance. Then we have to consider exactly how the power works. Why seeing the eyes directly kills you while seing their reflection (or through a ghost) just stones you? There is no physical explanaition I can think off, but how bad your eyes are is probably little defence - or else Basilisks wouldn't be that feared, since not everyone has 20/20 vision. hope that helps, Grey Wolf From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 08:00:37 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 08:00:37 -0000 Subject: Percy's House (long) In-Reply-To: <002f01c3692e$e31c4a40$49684b43@oemcomputer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78499 Margaret wrote: >Why isn't Percy in Slytherin? > > >If the defining charcteristic of Slytherins is "use any means to >achieve their ends" (Percy sending back his mum's sweater, that's >just wrong!) "Power hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition" >(definitly sounds like Percy) and the Weasleys are pureblood wizards >as far back as anyone can remember, shouldn't he be? > >He seems like the type who's always wanted to be in the MoM, even >before Hogwarts. > >I think JKR may have missed her chance for 'the good slytherin' here >(assuming he shows some major redeeming qualities, including an >apology for the sweater, in the last two books, until then, I'm >counting him as evil-by-lack-of-goodness) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >Lori : >Do you think that Fudge will remain Minister of Magic? And if he >doesn't who do you think would want that post, Maybe someone like Mr >Crouch, someone that is Percy! And given the fact that he is a >Weasley he would be well liked by most of the WW. Regardless of his >falling out with his parents. Percy to me should have been a >slytherin but choose to be in Gryffindor because of his family. >Weasley's are braver then most. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >bibphile : >Yes, but just because Percy is ambitious doesn't mean he's not >brave. >Besides, Percy ins't willing to "use any means." Or at least he >hasn't shown himself to be yet. If he were, he'd have stayed closed >to his family and spied on them (like Athur suggested was the intent >of his promotion) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lisa : >I agree with you Margaret. I've asked this before...isn't anyone >concerned that Harry found Percy reading a book called "Prefects Who >Gained Power" or some subject to that liking? It happened in PS/SS, >I believe. I think he was placed in Gryffindor on precedence... >Charlie/Bill. It is my understanding that the Sorting Hat does not >know definitely which house a student belongs it, it just makes its >best guess. If it knew Charlie and Bill, or remembered them for that >fact, the Hat may just have grouped him as a Weasley. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Me again: I admit there is some merit to the argument that if Percy was really evil he would have stayed and spyed on his family and Dumbledore. But I think that was his pride talking, not his integrity. He was offended by the idea that Fudge only made him junior undersecretary or whatever it was, to spy on his family. Percy believes firmly in his own worth. (And he was seen reading a copy of 'Prefects Who Gained Power: A Study of Hogwarts Prefects and Their Later Careers' in CoS ch 4, pg 58 US softcover) I just hope the proof of Fudge's covering up of the whole Voldemort's Back issue will cure him of his misguided faith in the MoM. (I think Fudge will do some MAJOR damage control and hold onto his tile as Minister, but it would be better for everyone if he got the boot. Then again, that's probably why he'll stay. ARTHUR WEASLEY FOR MINISTER OF MAGIC! Who's with me?) And just because he's shown some bravery (though I don't think he has, you can't use the "all Weasley's are brave" argument, you could just as easily say "all Blacks are evil" in regards to Sirius, if Percy's brave, I don't see any canon for it) doesn't mean anything. As Phineas Nigellus said: "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks". (OoP pg495 US hardcover) Sounds like Percy sending back his mum's sweater doesn't it? Or saying he has nothing to do with his father, who's reputation has been holding him (Percy) back at the ministry? The argument for being sorted into Gryffindor on the basis of family ties doesn't really hold up. Pavarti and Padma Patil are identical twins, but they're in different houses. But for there to be any surprise in Percy's defection to the MoM (what little there was) in OoP, he would have to have been in Gryffindor. ~Margaret, Who's still upset about the sweater thing. From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 23 08:15:49 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 08:15:49 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Avery, Snape, Florence and a little bit of Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78500 >"Howdy-doo" the woman greeted them. Avery turned away. >"Um, not to be rude," Amy said to the woman, "but who are you and >have you been listening?" >The woman swayed a bit. "Now that you mention it, I was listening >pretty intently. I was keen on hearing what you had to say about >Avery here." Avery gave a loud "harrumph". >"I take it you've met?" Amy asked. >"In a fashion," the woman replied. "Oh, my name's Ginger. I had a >different fourth man theory that didn't include Avery. It got blown >out of the bay completely. Worse than Avery's. But I think he kind >of holds it against me." "Wait, that was that Third Nott Theory rubber ducky wasn't it. You know I really liked that. Had a nice sort of symmetry about it. So now you have a new theory?" Amy asked. >"Nope, just a comment on what you said." Ginger scrunched her eyes >shut and repeated: >> "I am getting very suspicious of your "almost" appearing act. I >> don't think you turn up in the end battle, you might be there you >> might not cannon is unclear. There were about 12 death eaters but >> only four are mentioned: Mr Malfoy, Mrs Lestrange, Dolohov and >> McNair. You are not mentioned, no one calls your name or points >>you >> out. >Ginger cleared her throat in a nonhem-hem way and continued. "I was >just reading that section today, and they did mention everyone that >was there. It's on p. 788 US edition. Malfoy is telling the DE's to >split up to look for the kids. Nott is down at that point. He >divides the rest as follows: Belletrix and Rodolphus, Crabbe and >Rastaban," Avery made a gagging motion at the mention of the actual >fourth man. Ignoring him, Ginger went on, "Jugson and Dolohov, >Macnair and Avery, Rookwood was sent solo, and Malfoy went with >Mulciber." >"Oh, Avery!" exclaimed Amy, "you *were* there!" >"Yup" said Ginger. "Now what I wondered was why Goyle wasn't there. >Kind of odd, don't you think?" "Damn, I was really sure that Avery was never mentioned again. Serves me right for not re-reading the entire battle scene again. You know what doing a search in OotP is like though, worse than yahoomort. I hold my hands up and admit that I have only read the entire volume all the way through twice, mind you I loose count of the times I have read "Christmas on the closed ward" and "Snape's worst memory". "Damn, so he has been caught again," said Amy removing her hand from Avery's shoulder. "And somehow I doubt you will be able to talk your way out of this situation this time. Though what the narrative will do without Draco strutting around the school spouting quotes from his dad. Could there be any way to salvage the situation for Avery?" "It doesn't look like you can. Tied up by Dumbledore himself." Ginger replied. "Well at least we still don't know what you look like Avery. I wont say for definate as I have just lent out my book to my sister. Unless of course you were the "baby-head" death eater." Avery looked completely disgusted. First his hovercraft blown to pieces and now another shaky theory splintered all because of bad research. He was seriously considering going to hide in a shady little corner of theory bay and not coming out until book 6 when he might at least get a line of dialogue. > "Well, take care, I'm back off to the George. I just came out for a > bit of air. Place is full of dog hair." Ginger waved and shuffled > back to her lurking hole. "I'm sorry Avery, really I am. I just got a little carried away that's all." Amy From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 08:18:16 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 08:18:16 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay: Ouroboros in HP? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78501 KatyK: >Look at Bertha Jorkins. Crouch Sr. put such a >strong memory charm on her that it permanently damaged her memory >even though he was only out to destroy one memory. And Voldemort >and Wormtail were only able to get at her missing memory by >destroying the woman. ********** > hesdead-dealwithit >Also, Crouch's charm did not damage her memory - she was forgetful >before that. Only when LV extracted the memory from her, it resulted >in her being destroyed and useless - but not killed. There is no >reason that before LV got to her her memory wouldn't have started to >come back from what Crouch charmed her about. Me: Crouch *did* damage her memory permanently, and she was *not* forgetfull before that: Sirius in GoF pg 533 (US Hardcover) "Yes, he's [Bagman] quoted in the article in there, blustering on about how bad Bertha's memory is. Well, maybe she's changed since I knew her, but the Bertha I knew wasn't forgetful at all - quite the reverse. She was a bit dim, but had an excellent memory for gossip." This is said *after* Crouch Sr. does the memory charm that caused the damage to her memory. Barty Crouch Jr. GoF pg 685 (US Hardcover) "She [Bertha] came to investigate. She heard enough to guess who was hiding under the invisibility cloak. My father arrived home. She confronted him. He put a very powerful Memory Charm on her to make her forget what she'd found out. Too powerful. He said it damaged her memory permanantly." ~Margaret From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 23 08:21:02 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 08:21:02 -0000 Subject: flyingmotorcycle/eyes/HouseElves/Socks/L+J/nameRemus/canon/freewill/more Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78502 Vik Jarveys wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/75545 : << But wouldn't a flying motorbike be illegal as a charmed muggle thing, like Mr Weasley's car and flying carpets? >> Probably, but it seems to me that the Ministry of Magic doesn't care very much about ENFORCING its laws unless the violation gets into the Daily Prophet or the Muggles find out or the law enforcer welcomes the opportunity to "do" a disliked perpetrator. (Like JAZMYN said! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77753 ) << I'd assume that wizards do need to drive(ministry cars) so they would probably have licenses, >> Why would wizards who drive cars need to have a Muggle driver's license? They can just Obliviate or Confund any traffic cop who asks to see their license. << I wonder why the ministry gets away with having charmed cars and ordinary wizards don't. Such double standards. >> The Ministry is their government. The government always allows itself to do things that it doesn't allow ordinary people to do, I mean in RL ... if *I* grabbed some evildoer by force and locked him in a cage, I'd be guilty of kidnapping. Margaret wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77640 : << That theory won't work. A dragon's eyes are it's WEAKEST point (GoF US hardcover pg 406) as Sirius said in his letter to Harry in the chapter The Yule Ball >> Sorry, I meant that this theory said that a wizard's eyes are as resistant to magic as a dragon's brain or skin or whatever it is that needs 30 wizards to Stun one dragon, not as resistant as a dragon's eyes. So it could take 30 wizards casting the spell to even *temporarily* correct a wizard's myopia or astigmatism. Laura wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77653 : << Where do house elves come from? How long do they live? How do they reproduce, that is, do they marry or pair off in some other way? How does a family acquire one? Are there house elves without families (or family substitutes, like Hogwarts)? >> None of us actually *know* any of those answers, which has not kept us from wild speculation. There seems to be general agreement that since House Elves are humanoid and there are male and female House Elves (Dobby and Winky), they reproduce in the mammalian way. *I* think that House Elves go hang out together on some corner late at night while their humans are asleep and their work is all done, and that is how they meet their spouses, and how spouses get together for some canoodling after the wedding, and the sons belong to the father's family and the daughters to the mother's family. Others have, horrified, suggested that humans breed House Elves like pedigreed dogs or such. How many House Elve heads on plaque does it take to line a stairway? How long ago did Sirius's Aunt Elladora start the 'tradition' of beheading the House Elves when they get too old to carry a tea tray? If House Elves reproduced at age one year and were too old at age two years, that could be one head a year and the stairway would get all filled up very quickly. However, from our knowledge of Dobby, it seems that House Elves aren't quite that ephemeral. Dobby is old enough that he remembers Voldemort's first Reign of Terror (VRoT or "the Bad Years") and is still alive in OoP fourteen years after it ended. << Some of the posts in the archive suggested parallels between house elves and other elves in literature-Tolkien's, for instance. But I don't see the comparison, really-they are entirely different sorts of beings. (What do Legolas and Dobby have in common, after all?) >> I think everyone agrees that House Elves have nothing to do with Tolkien elves, but House Elves do resemble the "brownies" or little "elves" who did the shoemaker or housewife's work overnight while he/she was asleep, until heesh gratefully gave them little clothes as a present and they happily ran away and never did the work again. Someone mentioned a district of Britain where those brownies are traditionally called "dobbies". Michael Gidlow wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77914 : << I can't help but think that Dumbledore's seeing socks in the Mirror of Erised is a clue to something important. We know that to a house elf a sock means freedom, so could it be that Dumbledore wants to be freed from something? Any ideas? >> My friend has been saying since CoS that the Socks mean that Dumbledore is a House Elf disguised to look like a human and he wants to be freed. She says the reason he's such a great wizard is because he has House Elf magic. (Nicolas Flamel's House Elf, she speculated.) Some other people have suggested that the Socks mean Dumbledore wants to free the House Elves, perhaps specifically on purpose to have them join the fight againt Voldemort. Myself, I believe that what Dumbledore sees in the Mirror of Erised is not just any old socks, but a brand-new pair of the hideously ugly and somewhat uncomfortable hand-knitted socks that his late beloved wife or mother (or father or brother, I add to show that I'm not sexist about knitting) used to make for his Christmas gift every year, and his heart's true desire is not the socks, but to be still/again with the lost beloved. Quite separately, it seems to me that what Dumbledore wishes to be freed from is his very long life. One clue is how often GoF describes him looking old and tired. An earlier clue is his comment on his old friend Nicolas giving up the Philosopher's Stone at the end of PS/SS: "and then, yes, they will die." Dumbledore smiled at the look of amazement on Harry's face. "To one as young as you, I'm sure it seems incredible, but to Nicolas and Perenelle, it really is like going to bed after a very, very long day." I imagine that he is staying alive, in weariness and increasing physical discomfort, by sheer willpower, out of duty to fight Voldemort. Severus Book4 wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77967 : << Lupin is always descibed as being a little worse for wear, or unhealthy. Do you think this is a result of not feeding on humans at every full moon? Or a result of the serious potion he has to take? If it's the lack of fresh meat, I say the MOM should feed Umbridge to him if it would help build his strength. >> This is a forbidden LMAO post! Mandy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77976 : << If not, she then married him out of duress or necessity? I don't think so. Why? Let's see: Duress? (snip) So I suppose it could be possible, but all the photo's Harry has seen of his parents they both look very happy so I don't think so. Duress through an arranged marriage? (snip) Ok so we are left with necessity, which deals with teenage pregnancy. (snip) >> I believe that Lily and James married for love, and had their baby (whether or not planned) for love, and didn't know about any prophecy until after he was born. But there have long been theories that Lily and James found out that genetics or prophecy made them the only pair that could produce the child that would defeat Voldemort, and their loyalty to the struggle caused them to break up with their previous beloveds to marry each other for that strictly practical purpose. Mandy wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78038 : << Do you think Remus Lupin named himself after her was bitten or his parents gave him that name from birth? >> I believe his parents named him Remus Lupin, just as Sirius parent's named him Sirius Black (Dog-Star Black is a big Black Dog). One listie suggested that there is a Naming Spell. If the parents cast the Naming Spell, it gives the child a properly destined name; the catch is that the parents HAVE TO give the child that name. I don't believe in the Naming Spell because it couldn't control the surname. I prefer to believe that the destined names come from sheer magical co-incidence. Altho'that indicates destiny being inherited patrilineally: all Malfoys must be evil because their name means Bad Faith. Malcolm Baddock (sorted into Slytherin in GoF) must be evil because his name is MALxxxx BADxxxx. What happened to all that free will modern people believe in? Anyway, why don't the wizarding folk notice that names are meaningful and figure out that Remus Lupin is a werewolf as soon as they hear his name, so there is no secret to be kept by WPP in school days and Snape in PoA? Charlie Moody wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78073 : << Until it's committed to print, she can change her mind about anything she says, if she wants to bad enough. Print - published works - are authoritative. >> She can change the published works, too. She has done so. In the Priori Incantati scene in GoF, early printings had James's shadow exit Voldie's wand first and tell Harry his mother is coming, she has something to tell him. Since this contradicted either the statement that spell echoes leave the wand in reverse chronological order of casting or the description of James being killed before Lily, we listies came up with some half a dozen clever explanations. Later printings have Lily's shadow exit first and tell Harry his father is coming etc. The change is covered in the VFAQ. Del Doriane wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78109 : << "Geoff Bannister" wrote: << Again, to finish, Dumbledore points out to Harry in COS that what we are is a result of our choices, not our abilities >> I liked it so much when the principle of free agency was thus pointed out in CoS. And I hated it so much when the Prophecy came along in OoP, and destroyed everything. According to this Prophecy, Harry is the one who will destroy Voldemort, whether he likes it or not, whether he wants it or not, whether he decides to or not. Where is Harry's free agency in all of this? >> In general, philosophically, it's kind of difficult for free will to exist in a universe that has prophecy, or destiny, or time travel for that matter. (My answer to my own question, above.) I can't recall anything in canon that *states* that there is free will. Long ago, one wise and clever listie (whose name I have unfortunately forgotten) pointed out that Dumbledore, in that famous CoS scene, did *not* say that it is our choices that *make* us what we are. He said: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities." SHOW what we truly are. SHOW what we were and are *destined* to be, because we never had a choice about which choice we would choose: it was fixed from the beginning. Damn, she explained it so much better than I did. Steve bboy_mn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78197 : << I think Lupin's mother is still alive and that he still lives with her, and she still encourages him to make productive use of his time and try to make something out of his life. Sure hope we get to meet her. >> I think the "Lupin's place" to which Dumbledore referred at the end of GoF is some kind of small isolated cabin (*IN* the dragon preserve would be plenty isolated!) either inherited from his grandfather or lent to him by Dumbledore, rather than his parents' house. I think his parents are still alive but have retired to a small village in Greece --- I think they're English but spent most of their career working in Greece, managing a hotel for British wizarding tourists. Why Greece? Because it's in the Balkans, where werewolves seem to be less uncommon, so a likely place for their young son to have been bitten. (Btw I believe Lupin is living with Black in 12 Grimmauld Place during OoP.) Jeff wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78250 : << he grew up in a miserable enviroment. The fact that he isn't a serial killer is a miracle. >> I think Lily did that by magic. Read about it in my post http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/56252 Maritza wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78374 : << technically they weren't being tricked. It's not like she hid the hats inside other obects and *handed* them to the house elves, like Harry with Malfoy. >> But she did hide the hats under little piles of trash that the House Elves were supposed to clear away. Ron moved them out from under the little piles of trash, saying that the Elves deserved to know they were there and make their own choice. Jeff wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78489 : << even Ron shows little intrest in girls that I can see. >> I see Ron showing interest in girls. In PoA, the Trio go into the Three Broomsticks. "A curvy sort of woman with a pretty face was serving a bunch of rowdy warlock' up at the bar. "That's Madam Rosmerta," said Ron. "I'll get the drinks, shall I?" he added, going slightly red." When I first read PoA, I thought Ron was flushing with pride over buying the drinks for his friends (as money is such an issue for him). But the next year I read GoF, with all Ron's drooling over the Veelas at QWC and then Fleur at her first arrival, and I realised that back in PoA, the flush was because he had bought the round simply as an excuse to look down Madam Rosmerta's neckline. From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 06:11:21 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 06:11:21 -0000 Subject: Yours, Yours, Yours, (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78503 This is a filk of the song "Yours, Yours, Yours" from the musical 1776. It is the final song (at least until Book VII omes out) in my collection of filks from the musical 1776. This song is dedicated to Constance Vigilance, who is working on her first filk. I am certain it will be splendid. Yours, Yours, Yours (with apologies to John and Abigail Adams) SCENE: Harry is talking to his godfather, Sirius Black, via the fireplace in Delores Umbridge's office, after being very surprised by information gleaned from Professor Snape's Pensieve. HARRY: I live like a babe in a nursery Mollycoddled, kept from news; I hate it. SIRIUS: I live like a guest in my own house Tolerated, protected; I hate it HARRY: Help me cope with my paternal confusion. Was my father good? Was that an illusion? SIRIUS: Do you think your father grew up all at once? Remember, any fifteen-year-old boy can act the dunce. My best friend, James, I'll defend. James Became a most splendid young wizard. How else could he have won Lily's hand? HARRY: Then they both kept house in Godric's Grove together SIRIUS: And they joined the Order, Our faithful band. BOTH: They're gone, we're here I'll miss them forever; now Ever shall I be Yours, yours, yours, yours, yours SIRIUS: Godson, Harry HARRY: Godfather, Sirius BOTH: Now I must say, "Good night." -Haggridd From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 09:23:21 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:23:21 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Thestral and Dark Magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78504 Abigail takes a deep breath and tries to hold back her tears. "My dress! My beautiful new dress! First dog hair and now Butterbeer!" She dabs at the stains ineffectually. "Well, if it makes you feel any better, it seems that I've just sat in some pizza." Terry offers. "We were going to eat that pizza." Marina points out coldly. "I guess you'll just have to go shopping," Terry says sympathetically to Abigail. "Is there a mall around here?" "A mall?" Abigail asks, shocked. "A mall in Theory Bay?" She considers the question. "Is there?" She asks Marina. "No, but there are plenty of quaint, over-priced little shops." Marina answers. Abigail grimaces. "Look, both of you, I'm aware that you both think Sirius is still living beyond the veil." She says, eager to get her mind off the disaster that is her dress. "I probably should have mentioned that when I first came in. I'm afraid, however, that canon is against you. Let's assume that you're both right. If you go through the veil unharmed, you will still be alive on the other side. Do either of you believe that Dumbledore wouldn't know this?" "Aren't you the person who's always arguing against Dumbledore's omniscience?" Marina asks. "Dumbledore seems to know quite a bit about the Department of Mysteries - how else would he know about the locked room that he so ineffectually describes to Harry?" Abigail asks. "And Dumbledore is the one who uses the Thestrals for long distance travel - Hagrid tells us so. Let's suppose that it is possible to bring Sirius back from beyond the veil - wouldn't Dumbledore have done exactly that the minute Sirius went through?" Marina and Terry are silent, but finally they nod half-heartedly. "But he *doesn't*." Abigail emphasizes her words by banging her hand on the table, which is a mistake because it becomes covered in pizza sauce. She unconsciously wipes it on her dress, and then stares in horror at the new mess she's just created. "In fact, everything Dumbledore says to Harry in his office, a scant hour, at most, after Sirius goes through, makes Sirius sound dead and out of reach. For that matter, look at Lupin's reaction immediately after Sirius goes through - he clearly considers Sirius lost. If you two truly believe that it is possible to still be alive once going through the veil, then you have to explain the horrified reactions of every single person who sees Sirius go through - they clearly believe him to be dead. And if he's dead, then bringing him back is a dispute of the natural order of things, and would fall under the category of Dark Magic." "OK, but what about my interview canon?" Terry insists. "JKR seems to employ the same kind of deviousness in her answers to reporters as she does when writing the books. Look at Gilderoy Lockhart! She might not have been referring to Sirius when she spoke about the death that made her cry." Abigail frowns. "Well, I can't find the exact interview, but if I remember it correctly JKR painted herself into a corner when she spoke about this death - she specifically said that it was coming in book 5 and that writing it had made her cry. Also, if I remember the Albert Hall interview correctly, she pretty much said the OOP death was final." Abigail looks down at the disaster that is her dress. "You know, I might just go to the unveiling like this. It is a *modern* art exhibit, after all." Abigail From silmariel at telefonica.net Sat Aug 23 11:10:57 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:10:57 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: <16250278547.20030822173417@earthlink.net> References: <16250278547.20030822173417@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200308231310.57266.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78505 Susanne: > It's possible that JKR will let us know later what exactly > happened to Umbridge while she was with the Centaurs, and > maybe the kids will feel guilty about having laughed at her > reaction in the hospital scene. > > For now, I didn't get the feeling there was rape involved, > because of the way JKR wrote the hospital scene. I've been reading the thread and I've noticed the mythological references, I'll like to add that centaurs, bacchae, and berserks were also notorious for ingesting phychoactive fungus during rituals, which leads easily to the violence and lust fame. I don't think Jo is giving a view of centaurs that include uses of amanita muscaria in rituals that end with rapery, but the hint to the shock can be she has been drugged. They have forced her to 'see'. Links: silmariel From silmariel at telefonica.net Sat Aug 23 11:26:56 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:26:56 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The Undead (was Snape Vampire Theory) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308231326.56409.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78506 I've been ill, and Abigail has pointed out (nearly) in post 78390 TBAY: Thestral and Dark Magic what I was going to add. A Goldfeesh >> However, as JKR has stated, I don't think anyone can be brought back from death. Plus, I wouldn't want to see it-it'd be too much of a "fooled you- he's not dead" scenario. The scenario being Snape able to rescue Sirius if he could be talked into it. << The dead are dead, for what I know, I'm not trying to bring Sirius back, I was thinking of speaking to them, maybe one has crucial information for Harry. Anyway, I just enjoy realms of the dead. If is important the orientation sense of thestrals because they can find other realms, well, I suposse vampires by default are aware of thestrals and this can be a connection. silmariel From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 05:56:06 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 05:56:06 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78507 >In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, > "elizabeth1603" > wrote: > We find out that Snape began teaching fourteen years ago and that he keeps applying for the DADA position. None of that is very enlightening. > > We also find out that Professor Trelawney has been at Hogwarts for sixteen years, but later on, we find out the story behind her hire as well. > > Now, McGonagall's answer is what I find intriguing. We learn that she has been at Hogwarts for thirty-nine years, but wedon't find out any new information behind her arrival at Hogwarts. Is this information that we're supposed to keep in the back of our minds for a later purpose? > > I have my own opinions about McGonagall. She came to Hogwarts twenty-four years before Harry was born. I believe sheis Harry's great-grandmother on James's side, and that, for some reason(perhaps James's father was killed), it became necessary for her to take on a job to help the family out when James was born. > > > > Elli > > md (after snipping per my elf's instructions): I've been thinking about how Dumbledore uses Hogwarts as a safe house of sorts. Trewlaney was hired after the prophecy, and Dumbledore absoutely refused to let her leave after she was fired by Umbridge. Snape has stayed there sincethe fall of Voldemort. While I'm not conviced it has anything to do with Harry's family, I do wonder whether McGonagall did something or have something happen that requires her to stay at Hogwarts for her protection or safety. serious_schwartz From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 06:04:45 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 06:04:45 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power is Self-sacrifice In-Reply-To: <002001c36930$53f026a0$89cafea9@yale> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78508 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yale sam wahl" wrote: > I have read the arguments here for love, hope, etc. but the one power that I > believe is being referred to is self-sacrifice. His mom gave up her life for > Harry, and Harry has time and again been willing to sacrifice himself if it > means saving others. > I dont think that these are to be confused with courage -- self sacrifice is > much more intense - and final. > And clearly LV has none of this quality. He strives for life more than > anything - even resorting to killing unicorns and occupying the bodies of > others. Harry has none of this survival urge. ,snip> > > samnanya me: That is a really excellent point. And it explains why Harry even got himself into some of these predicaments in the first place. A good part of it was curiosity, but it did come down to self-sacrifice. I think the other qualities you mention in your post -- courage, love, and hope. -- all come into play. But it is the notion of giving yourself up for a greater good that brings all those qualities together. So, do you think Harry will ultimately sacrifice himself to bring down Voldemort? After all, the prophecy said that both can't survive, it didn't say they couldn't both perish. serious_schwartz From odilefalaise at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 11:40:33 2003 From: odilefalaise at yahoo.com (Odile Falaise) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 04:40:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narcissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030823114033.30976.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78509 --- entropymail wrote: > I've often wondered about Narcissa's relationship to > Lily and Petunia. > I know she's on the tapestry with Andromeda and > Bellatrix, but I've > always felt that JKR was giving us some kind of clue > regarding > Narcissa because her name, like the sisters Lily and > Petunia, is that > of a flower. No one else in the wizarding world > seems to be named > this way. > Now Odile (c'est moi): Whee! A chance to post about one of my favorite characters! Yes, Narcissa/Narcissus *is* a flower. I admit to being a wee bit annoyed whenever I see her name etymology linked only to the myth of Narcissus. Oh, well. Here are a couple of links (the second one has a picture): http://www.botany.com/narcissi.html http://www.flowers.org.uk/flowers/facts/k-r/narcissus.htm And according to the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols, p. 695: "...connection of this flower with the cults of the Underworlds... Narcissi were planted on graves. They symbolize the numbness of death, but of a death which is perhaps no more than a sleep." How. Cool. Is. That. But wait! There's more! (Fanfic authors take note?): on p. 696: "...relates to the symbolism of water and the seasonal cycle, and in consequence to fertility. This is the meaning of its ambivalence - death, sleep, rebirth." And: "Persephone was drugged with the scent of Narcissi when Hades, enraptured by love of her beauty, seized the girl and carried her off to the Underworld." Entropymail continued: > Can it ba a clue that she may be somehow related to > Lily, or could it > possibly be a clue that she is simply a Deatheater > counterpart of > Lily's, the way Harry and Draco seem to be > light/dark counterparts? > Great observation. Mwahahahaha. ^_~ From phluxist at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 08:01:16 2003 From: phluxist at yahoo.com (phluxist) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 08:01:16 -0000 Subject: Narcissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78510 entropymail said: > I've often wondered about Narcissa's relationship to Lily and > Petunia. I know she's on the tapestry with Andromeda and > Bellatrix, but I've always felt that JKR was giving us some kind > of clue regarding Narcissa because her name, like the sisters Lily > and Petunia, is that of a flower. No one else in the wizarding > world seems to be named this way. > > Can it ba a clue that she may be somehow related to Lily, or could > it possibly be a clue that she is simply a Deatheater counterpart > it Lily's, the way Harry and Draco seem to be light/dark > counterparts? Well, I've thought about this, too. But then I found a listing of other flower names (both male and female) from mugglenet.com. Here's their list: Petunia Dursley Lily Potter Narcissa Malfoy Violet (lady in a portrait who hangs out with the Fat Lady) Lavender Brown Fleur Delacour Moaning Myrtle Poppy Pomfrey Pansy Parkinson So I think its just a bit of flower-name fun. But no doubt there will be a big relevation in Harry's heritage (flower-related or not) coming up in the next books. Phluxist From fc26det at aol.com Sat Aug 23 12:23:08 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:23:08 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78511 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bubbaqrib" > wrote: > > Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of > > Slytherin? > > His mom, Lily, was in Slytherin House, wasn't she? > I'm sorry. I obviously missed something somewhere. Where does it say that Lily was in Slytherin House? Please direct me to where this came from. Thanks, Susan From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 12:47:16 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 12:47:16 -0000 Subject: Snape the Iconoclast Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78512 Severus Snape is, arguably, the most fascinating character in the Harry Potter series. The reason for this is clear - there is so little that's obvious about him. His personality, allegiance and emotional attachments are shrouded in mystery, but not nearly as much as his past. The two most frequently asked question about Snape are, why did he join the Death Eaters, and why did he leave? The second question has been answered in every way from the mundane to the melodramatic. Snape has lost countless friends and family members to the Dark Lord's murderous glee, forcing him to rethink his choices. The famous and popular theory LOLLIPOPS suggests that Snape was in love with Lily Potter, and that the threat to her life made him switch sides. Other theories suggest that his motives were mercenary - Snape simply chose the side he thought likely to win, or, alternatively, he was disappointed in his place within the DE hierarchy, and hoped Dumbledore would be able to offer him better. My own personal favorite, George [1], suggests that there was no single event that caused Snape to change sides, but merely the eventual realization of the immorality of his actions. The first question, however, has not been so frequently addressed. Is it sufficient to conclude that Snape came from a muggle-hating background, and that his membership of house Slytherin placed him on a collision course with Voldemort? Should we assume that the same Love of Lily which later forced Snape to renounce Voldemort first sent him into the Dark Lord's arms when Lily chose James? These are all good possibilities, but I would like to offer another one. I've been thinking for several months about Snape's past, and OOP has only served to cement my belief that Snape, though his wizarding credentials are no doubt impeccable, does not come from money. In fact, I am absolutely certain that Snape's family was poor. In order to explain how this relates to Snape's decision to join Voldemort, I'd like to first look at Voldemort himself, and at the changes that he sought to bring to wizarding society. And in order to do that, I'd like to first take a look at wizarding society itself. About a year ago, a discussion broke out on HPfGU about class in the wizarding world. Elkins argued that quite apart from the distinctions of purity, wizarding society also made distinctions according to class - that is, wealth. She argued that Hogwarts was strictly an upper-class institution, and that working and middle-class wizards never even went to school, or at least not to Hogwarts. Elkins suggested that there in fact exist several wizarding schools in England, Hogwarts simply being the most exclusive. [2] I disagreed with most of Elkins' conclusions, and still do. JKR has assured us that there is only one wizarding school in the UK, and there are enough instances of muggle-born students in Hogwarts to counter the assertion that only high-born wizards get to go there. However, I do find quite acceptable the idea that the wizarding world is class-conscious as well as blood-conscious. Time and time again we see that respectability and power in the wizarding world follow the trail of money even more inexorably then they follow the trail of pure wizarding blood. The Weasleys are as old and as respectable a family of pure-blood wizards as the Malfoys or the Blacks - so much so that there has been intermarriage between the three families - but, as Draco Malfoy tells Harry in PS, not all pure-blood families are equal. The difference, as he makes certain to point out whenever Ron is in earshot, is money. It is money that makes Lucius Malfoy as powerful as he is, and there is evidence that other powerful pure-blood wizards are also wealthy. Crouch Sr., for example, has a mansion, and can afford to keep a house-elf - and he was very nearly the Minister for Magic. Where does that leave Voldemort, or more accurately, the young Tom Riddle? He is neither pure-blood, nor wealthy, but he has developed a burning hatred of the world he leaves behind whenever he comes to Hogwarts. A different person might have chosen to climb the ladder. To play society's game. Class-conscious or not, the wizarding world, like any aristocratic society, can be cracked by a newcomer with enough wits and determination. Tom Riddle could have made a name for himself - become the youngest ever Minister for Magic - and the world would have been a very different place. He does not choose to do this. Rather then navigate the currents of society until he reaches the top, Tom Riddle chooses to tear society itself down. Let's examine Voldemort's stated purposes - they are surprisingly vague. Apart from his own desire to defeat death and accumulate power, Voldemort is eager to eliminate muggle-borns from wizarding society and subjugate muggles. People like Lucius Malfoy would have us believe that this is a reaction to the erosion of the status of old families over the last century. Our own eyes tell us a different story. Arthur Weasley's pro-muggle beliefs make him a pariah in his place of work. The Minister for Magic himself seems to hold anti-muggle beliefs, and treats Squibs as unworthy of his attention. Wizarding society without Voldemort's influence is not nearly as enlightened as we might like to believe, and I suspect that 50 years ago, when Voldemort's ideology began to form, things were even worse. It's possible, I suppose, that Voldemort felt the changes coming - Dumbledore was already shaping up as a figure of power, fresh from his defeat of Grindlewald, and may have already made his inclusive philosophy clear, but these changes could have been combatted from within - see, for example, Dolores Umbrdige's legislative attack on half-breeds. Voldemort chose not to do so. Voldemort's dream of a return to ancient wizarding values is about as true to the form of wizarding society as Hitler's claim that the Third Reich was a return to the Golden Age of Germany. In truth, what Voldemort was trying to do was to overturn society, tear it down, and erect in its place an entirely new social order, one with himself and his followers at the top. Hatred of muggles and muggle-borns is as incidental to this plan as Hitler's hatred of the Jews and other "inferior" races. WIthin this atmosphere, being the progeny of an old, wealthy wizarding family might be more of a hindrance then an asset. These families had benefitted from the social order as it stood - the foundations of their status were rooted in the very thing that Voldemort proposed to destroy. When Sirius tells us about his brother, we are led to believe that he didn't have the stomach to commit the atrocities that Voldemort desired of him, but I suspect that there's more to it then that. >From Chapter 6, The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black, page 104 in the UK hardcover edition. Sirius and Harry are discussing Regulus: ----------------------- '"Were - were your parents Death Eaters as well?' 'No, no, but believe me, they thought Voldemort had the right idea, they were all for the purification of the wizarding race, getting rid of Muggle-borns and having pure-bloods in charge. They weren't alone, either, there were quite a few people, before Voldemort showed his true colors, who thought he had the right idea about things ... they got cold feet when they saw what he was prepared to do to get power, though. But I bet my parents thought Regulus was a right little hero for joining up at first.' 'Was he killed by an Auror?' Harry asked tentatively. 'Oh, no, said Sirius. 'No, he was murdered by Voldemort. Or on Voldemort's orders, more likely; I doubt Regulus was ever important enough to be killed by Voldemort in person. From what I found out after he died, he got in so far, then panicked about what he was being asked to do and tried to back out. Well, you don't just hand in your resignation to Voldemort. It's a lifetime of service or death.'" ----------------------- What is it exactly that Regulus, and other early supporters of Voldemort, panicked about? What were the true colors that they saw? Was it simply the fact that Voldemort's methods involved murder? I find it hard to believe that Mrs. Black would blanche at the notion of killing muggle-borns. I think it was the realization that Voldemort was proposing anarchy. That he meant to make them all his servants, that made these old families reluctant to support him openly, and that makes me believe that Voldemort's greatest supporters did not necessarily come from those families. Lucius Malfoy is, I suspect, an anomaly. He desires power, and clearly doesn't believe that the world as it is today will provide him with enough of it. His son, however, is a throwback to those pure-blood families who didn't have it in them to support Voldemort. Draco enjoys his status too much to be willing to work for more of it. Crouch Jr. is obviously an anomaly. He hates the world he comes from because he hates his father - tearing the wizarding world down means tearing his father down with it. Bellatrix Lestrange is a sadist - Voldemort offers her an opportunity to indulge her desires, whereas her own society might expect her to be a woman of leisure, prettying up her husband's arm. In short, while being a pure-blood wizard is a requirement to join Voldemort's ranks, being a member of a wealthy family might very well count against you. Voldemort is looking for iconoclasts. And now we come, full circle, to Snape. One of my favorite theories about the events that drove Snape to join the Death Eaters has to do with the Prank, or rather, with the aftermath to it. This theory suggests that Snape was so disgusted with the punishment - or lack thereof - that the Marauders received after nearly getting him killed, that he lost all respect for Dumbledore. None of the Marauders are expelled. A dangerous werwolf is allowed to continue studying with unsuspecting students. Snape himself is cautioned against saying anything, as though he were at fault. To add insult to injury, the very next year, James is made Head Boy! According to this theory, Snape became disgusted with Dumbledore, seeing his claims of fairness and impartiality as hypocrisy, and rejected Dumbledore's ethics. I'd like to fold this theory into a new theory, which I'd like to call Iconoclast!Snape. I think Snape came from a poor wizarding family, and that his experience in the wizarding world taught him to despise the social order as her perceived it. Dumbledore, to this Snape, would have been a saviour - his philosophy seems to be one of judging people by their merits. Then the Prank happens, and Snape sees what he perceives to be Dumbledore aligning himself with the wealthy, entitled James and Sirius. Is it any wonder that Snape then turns to the next anarchist on his list? In suggesting this theory, I'm reminded of the character Steerpike in Mervin Peake's Gormenghast trilogy (Titus Groan, Gormenghast, Titus Alone). Gormenghast is an ancient castle, which is in fact an entire city, a world governed by ancient traditions, and an aristocratic ruling family going back 77 generations. Steerpike is a young kitchen boy with passionate ambitions. Through guile, deceit and treachery he manages to insinuate himself into the ruling family of Gormenghast. Steerpike despises the very things that he tries hardest to get, and which he eventually ends up destroying - the ruling family of Groan is decimated, and the last scion abdicates and leaves Gormenghast. I see Snape as a sort of Steerpike. Since he couldn't get the things he wanted by gentle means - Dumbledore's way, which he grew to believe was false - he chose to tear down the very fabric of the society that denied him entrance. In support of the claim that Snape come from a poor family, I'd like to reexamine the parallel that I drew between him and Harry a few days ago. It occurred to me, thanks to Laura's comments on that post, that Snape and Harry can be described as opposites as well as equals, and then I realized that this is because there are in fact two Harrys. Muggle Harry is the one without any friends. He is bullied by his cousin and is too weak to fight back. His family hates him, and his home life is miserable. He is a virtual nobody. Wizard Harry has powerful and devoted friends. He is more then capable of taking care of himself, and is in fact a sports hero. He has a large adoptive family who love him very much, to the point of fighting over him. He is so famous that every child knows his name. The problem is that Harry, consciously or not, sees himself as Muggle Harry even in the wizarding world. Laura took me to task for comparing Harry to Snape because Harry isn't really bullied in the wizarding world, and I pointed out that it is Harry himself who makes the comparison. Whereas Wizard Harry and Snape couldn't be more different (and it is this Harry that Snape sees), Muggle Harry seems to be an exact fit to the teenage Snape that we see in the Pensieve. And Muggle Harry is poor. Harry makes the point of noticing, even, that he can't bring any of his wizard money home, because the Dursleys would take it away from him. When he's in the Muggle world, Harry has nothing - everything he owns came from Dudley first, and was frequently broken. He often has nothing to eat. Before PS, he sleeps in a cupboard under the stairs. It is only in the wizarding world that Harry has possessions and the ability to purchase more of them. I think Snape's life was the same (in fact, I'm waiting to find out that the shouting man we see in Snape's memory is not his father but his uncle). The only difference is that when Snape came to Hogwarts, his life didn't magically change - he was still poor, weak and friendless. No wonder he wanted to tear the world down. Abigail [1] This is indeed George the barman from TBAY. He is the anthropomorphic personification of a theory suggested by Elkins ("Oh my, my very own Snapetheory! I will love him and squeeze him and I will name him George"). [2] This discussion originated with a question suggested by Phillip Nel, who wrote a book about Harry Potter. The discussion begins with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/41210 And continues in ensuing messages. It was a fun romp. From entropymail at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 13:13:29 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:13:29 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78513 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bubbaqrib" > > > wrote: > > > Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of > > > Slytherin? > > > > > His mom, Lily, was in Slytherin House, wasn't she? > > > > I'm sorry. I obviously missed something somewhere. Where does it > say that Lily was in Slytherin House? Please direct me to where this > came from. > Thanks, Susan >From message #1991: "Lily being in Slytherin also fits in with the theory of Snape being in love with her; on the other hand, I would suspect that most of the other Slytherins would have resented her, because she was Muggle born, while the majority of them would have come from old, pureblooded wizarding families. If so, it would have made sense for her to seek out friends from other houses, which might have helped lead to her meeting and eventually falling in love with James." However, after a bit of research, I've read JKR saying that Lily was actually in Gryffindor! From entropymail at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 13:03:13 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:03:13 -0000 Subject: Narcissa In-Reply-To: <20030823114033.30976.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78514 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Odile Falaise wrote: > > And according to the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols, p. > 695: > "...connection of this flower with the cults of the > Underworlds... Narcissi were planted on graves. They > symbolize the numbness of death, but of a death which > is perhaps no more than a sleep." > How. Cool. Is. That. > But wait! There's more! (Fanfic authors take note?): > on p. 696: "...relates to the symbolism of water and > the seasonal cycle, and in consequence to fertility. > This is the meaning of its ambivalence - death, sleep, > rebirth." Very cool. I've been far lazier than you in looking things up, but I do know that lilies are also often associated with death as well, particularly early death. Lilies have also been closely associated in Christianity with Christ's death and rebirth, as well as white lilies being important in Chinese culture, as white is the death color. Thanks to all who mentioned all of the other flower-names throughout HP. But I still think these two are uniquely related in a dark side/light side way somehow, now more than ever! Entropy From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 23 13:49:22 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:49:22 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Re-moderation and how to avoid it Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78515 Greetings from Hexquarters! As you may have noticed, the list volume has been somewhat overwhelming of late. This has caused your hard-working list elves to become ? well, overwhelmed. List rules have therefore been less strictly enforced than we would like. However, as list volume decreases, and elf numbers increase, those of you who tend to `forget' list rules will find that an increasing number of owls are winging your way. So if you don't want to feel like Vernon Dursley, plagued by a peck of owls, we suggest that you hightail it over to the distinctly slimmed down HB file at http://hpfgu.org.uk/hbfile.html There you can read our posting advice, if you don't have already have a copy. Be warned ? those who keep breaking the same list rules even *after* three warnings may find themselves doing remedial moderated status with our list elves. Unfortunately, this won't be as exciting or dramatic as Harry's experience of `remedial potions' with Snape. Moderated status is more akin to History of Magic with Professor Binns. Incredibly boring for all concerned, and everybody's praying for it to end. ;-) So skate over to the Hbfile today! You know it makes sense! O.W.L. T.R.E.A.T.S Our Wizarding Leaders: The Really Expanding Admin Team From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Aug 23 13:54:48 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:54:48 -0000 Subject: Percy's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78516 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bibphile" wrote: > > Yes, but just because Percy is ambitious doesn't mean he's not > brave. Really I wonder why people keep asking why he isn't in > Slytherin. He works incredibly hard. That's usually seen a > Hufflepuff trait. He seems to be very intelligent. That's > Ravenclaw. How come no one ever asks why he isn't in Hufflepuff or > Ravenclaw? > > > I think Percy belonged in Gryffindor and not Slytherin the same way > Hermione belongs in Gryffindor and not Ravenclaw. Partially by > traits, partially by choice. > > bibphile I agree. Also, we have seen that Percy is brave, when he fought the Death Eaters at the Quidditch-World Cup. He didn't seem to hesistate a second, when the older Weasleys went to help the Roberts family. Percy has many faults, but that doesn't mean he is a coward. Hickengruendler From urghiggi at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 14:42:13 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:42:13 -0000 Subject: Heir of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78517 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "thetruthisoutthere_13" < free_lunch_club at h...> wrote: > > I suspect that Harry will be the *chosen* heir of Gryffindor. Given > Rowling's stance that choices matter more than blood, it will not > make sense for Harry to be a blood relative of Gryffindor. > > -kg KG wrote this a few weeks ago; I came across it while I was searching posts about "who was the guy in behind the bar in the Hog's Head" -- and the above didn't seem to provoke a lot of comment. But it popped out at me today due to the strong King Arthur parallel. In such a case the "office" of being heir of Gryffindor would be analogous to becoming the Pendragon, as interpreted in CS Lewis' "Hideous Strength." (In other words, a nonhereditary, royal or semiroyal title conferred due to the proven worth of the recipient. In CSL's imagined world, the Pendragon is the titular heir of Arthur and the chosen leader of the essential Britain, as opposed to the 'realworld' sociopolitical Britain.) This would not be the first Arthurian referent in Potterworld (Arthur was reared in obscurity, tutored by a great wizard mentor, and revealed his lineage by pulling a sword from an unlikely place.) On the other hand there's the entirely plausible theory that the Potters were so flush with galleons because it's an inherited Gryffindor fortune, making Harry the actual heir, not just the titular one. Is there any group consensus (fanon) on the relationship between HP & GGryffindor? urghiggi, Chgo From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 15:23:21 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:23:21 -0000 Subject: Snape the Iconoclast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78518 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > Severus Snape is, arguably, the most fascinating character in the > Harry Potter series. ....AMEN! oh...sorry.... she continues: And now we come, full circle, to Snape. One of my favorite theories about the events that drove Snape to join the Death Eaters has to do with the Prank, or rather, with the aftermath to it. This theory suggests that Snape was so disgusted with the punishment - or lack thereof - that the Marauders received after nearly getting him killed, that he lost all respect for Dumbledore. None of the Marauders are expelled. A dangerous werwolf is allowed to continue studying with unsuspecting students. Snape himself is cautioned against saying anything, as though he were at fault. To add insult to injury, the very next year, James is made Head Boy! According to this theory, Snape became disgusted with Dumbledore, seeing his claims of fairness and impartiality as hypocrisy, and rejected Dumbledore's ethics. ME: This has been my pet theory as well and was only reinforced with the awful penseive scene. Much discussion has taken place here as to how or why that particular memory could possibly be Severus Snape's *worst*. He seems to have had a rotten childhood, lots of crap memories to be had there (budgie being found feet-up on Christmas morning and the like), it looks as though he come from poverty (despite what we've read in Dickens, that isn't usually cause for happy reminiscing either) and of course, he was, for an indeterminate length of time a *Death Eater*. It's rather difficult to believe that there isn't ONE memory from those days that isn't just a tiny bit more harrowing than a school-yard humilation. So...what is it about THIS memory? My belief is that if it wasn't "the straw that broke the camel's back" it was most certainly the "beginning of the end". I believe this memory is his worst, not because of the event itself, but because of its consequences. There are a few hints as to this--hints? No, slaps upside the head! The 1st is McG's tirade at Harry and George which actually occurs Prior to our witnessing the penieve memory. Harry and George are sent to McG's office for fighting with Draco after Quidditch. (pg 414 US ed.): "I have never seen such a disgraceful exhibition. Two onto one! Explain yourselves!" "Malfoy provoked us" "Provoked you?" shouted Professor McGonagall, slamming a fist onto her desk so that her tartan bisquit tin slid sideways off it and burst open littering the floor with Ginger Newts. "He'd just lost, hand't he, of course he wanted to prvoke you!" and etc.... WELL! We don't know if McG was Head of Gryf. when the James Gang were in residence but we do know she was on the staff. When I read this scene a second time (since again, it comes prior to the pensieve assault) I tasted bile. It is QUITE apparent that the little bit of fun by the lake was never reported to anyone in authority--even if McG was NOT head of house then, she CERTAINLY would have heard about it if it had been dealt with AT ALL. If she reacts this way to her students taking part in a *provoked* attack, what would have been her response had she witnessed what we saw? The 2nd slap comes from Snape himself during the Occulmency lesson. In what appears to be a hypocritical tirade about sulking and holding grudges, on closer reading becomes a WARNING to Harry. (pg 536 US ed) "I told you to empty yourself of emotion!" "Yeah? Well I'm finding that hard at the moment" Harry snarled. "Then you will find yourself easy prey for the Dark Lord!" said Snape savagely. "Fools who wear their hearts proudly on their sleeves, who cannot control their emotions, who wallow in sad memories and allow themselves to be provoked this easily--weak people, in other words-- they stand no chance against his powers! He will penetrate your mind with absurd ease, Potter!" A warning indeed. Severus has just given Harry a list of the weaknesses V. "looks for". One of them was his. He sees Harry sliding down that very same slippery slope. And if we didn't get it then (most of us didn't, I didn't at first) we are immediately smashed over the head with The Pensieve. Severus' slope becomes slipperier. The smoldering gets hotter, the plotting and behind-the-back hexing continues ("And why the hell not?" the boy thinks, "it's not like anyone's going to *do* anything!") and the feud escalates, apparently unnoticed--certainly without intervention of any authority--until The Prank. And THAT was "all she wrote" for Severus. The cicle is complete-- we've come back to Abby's post and the quote above. I remember posting in a fit of pique one evening on another forum "You're asking the wrong question! The question isn't 'why did Snape *join* the Death Eaters?' The question is 'why didn't he *invent* them?' Melpomene--who's happy with this theory AND the Lily pursued Severus Idea. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 15:24:27 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:24:27 -0000 Subject: The Toffee With the One-Ton Tongue (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78519 The Toffee With the One-Ton Tongue (GoF, Chap 3-4) The third A!Kedavra filk to the tune of The Surrey With the Fringe On Top from Rodgers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma! Dedicated to Catherine McK THE SCENE: Four Privet Drive. Having received a written invitation through the Muggle post, HARRY is hoping VERNON will allow him to depart with the WEASLEYS to the Quidditch World Cup. HARRY: Molly has this message sent to me Stamped over-enthusiastically VERNON It's the sort of thing that I hate to the utmost Something out of the ordinary.... HARRY The Weasleys sent this invitation To attend skilled broomstick gyrations In a clash of two Wizard nations at the Quidditch Cup They'll arrive at five here tomorrow My godpa will be filled with sorrow If they cannot his godson borrow for the Quidditch Cup VERNON These Weasley fellows, they're some of "his kind" Who sent him that weirdo letter There's a part o' me says, "Make him stay behind," But get rid of the kid, that's better! HARRY How will we launch this new safari? Will we fly a Ford or Ferrari Through a night sky moonlit and starry toward a Burrow stop? How I long to be departin' for the Quidditch World Cup! (Segue to the next day, as HARRY and THE DURSLEYS wait for the WEASLEYS to appear) VERNON: Did you say they be here at five? HARRY: Any moment now they should arrive VERNON: Hope that they don't think that they'll be asked for dinner. PETUNIA Take the boy, away then they must drive HARRY Uncle Vern has got his best suit on Which he does when there's a dispute on Dud's a-feared, now ain't he a cute one, safe-guardin' his butt (Much to the DUSRLEYS' consternation, confused voices are heard from behind the faux fireplace.) Now we hear a voice, does a nut lurk? ARTHUR (behind the wall) No, it's just us via Floo Network But the damn thing simply will not work If the chimney's blocked FRED, GEORGE & RON (behind the wall) We Weasleys are trapped behind the drywall This isn't quite what we were hopin' ARTHUR (behind the wall) There is a way out that I now recall It's a spell that'll blast it right open (The fireplace wall explodes, covering everyone and everything in dust as the WEASLEYS emerge.) ARTHUR (looking around, enraptured) Muggle home, I could stay here forever FRED, GEORGE & RON Yeah, right, sure, Dad, OK, whatever THE DURSLEYS No, no, no, no, no, never, never Go away and stop! We dislike it when a family of wizards in drops. FRED & GEORGE (to themselves) Aunt and Uncle ain't fun and cuddly Harry told us all about Dudley He's a git who appears none too studly, Just a greedy thug. We've a wheeze from the Weasley collection That's disguised as a harmless confection Once it's dropped, Dud might make a selection Of our Toffee Tongue. He's takin' the bait just as we had surmised Soon he'll know something he wrong ate For his tongue is gainin' an excessive size To a length of four feet it elongates (In the ensuing panic, ARTHUR sends his sons and HARRY away via the Floo Network, and remains behind to repair the damage.) ARTHUR Hush, l'il Dud, your tongue stop a-flappin' `Tunia & Vern, desist in your scrappin' Oh, those twins, their wrists I'll be slappin' For this isn't fun I'm so sorry `bout their Toffee And this tongue of one ton. (ARTHUR, having returned everyone and everything to normal, takes a final affectionate glance around the Muggle native habitat before departing via Floo Network.) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From shokoono at gmx.de Sat Aug 23 15:06:34 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:06:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Waspy Snape References: Message-ID: <003b01c3698c$1283eec0$32f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78520 Talisman, who is not sure what we would find if we compared all translations, but is interested, asks: With what word does the German translation replace "waspish?" Even if the word is an important clue it might not be in your version, for the very reason that, as you seem to be saying, the term "waspish" doesn't translate well in German. Perhaps if you would share the German term(s) with us we could see some other connection. The alternate words might illuminate the original usage. Or not. Unfortunately trope, like poetry, often suffers in translation. Talisman, who is bringing her dragon-hide gloves, just in case. Me: I showed the CoS scene up for you. It says "abfllig". If you type this in a Babylon dictionary it says: derogatory, belittling, disparaging, scornful; mean. The OoP scene is a little problem by now, because the Gernam edition will be out on 8th of November.... but if you are interested in it remind me after christmas (I told my fiance he is to buy it as a gift for me ;-) ). Yours Finchen From abigailnus at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 15:59:00 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:59:00 -0000 Subject: Snape the Iconoclast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78521 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: Snip great stuff about McGonagal's reaction to Harry and George attacking Malfoy two against one, versus the obvious non-reaction to James and Sirius' attack on Snape. I completely agree, and I'd like to add that we see how un-Gryffindor it is to gang up on someone later in the book, when the four Aurors attack McGonagal at once, and Hagrid is enraged and calls them cowards. > The 2nd slap comes from Snape himself during the Occulmency lesson. > In what appears to be a hypocritical tirade about sulking and holding > grudges, on closer reading becomes a WARNING to Harry. > > > A warning indeed. Severus has just given Harry a list of the > weaknesses V. "looks for". One of them was his. He sees Harry sliding > down that very same slippery slope. It's interesting that you should mention the slippery slope, Mel, because I've been wondering about another Occlumency lesson. Chapter 26, Seen and Unforseen, p. 521 UK Hardcover. Snape has just seen Harry's dream of Rookwood, and has concluded that Harry hasn't been practicing his Occlumency: ------------ '"Perhaps," said Snape, his dark, cold eyes narrowing slightly, "perhaps you actually enjoy having those visions and dreams, Potter. Maybe they make you feel special - important?" "No, they don't," said Harry, his jaw set and his fingers clenched tightly around the handle of his wand. "That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."' ------------ With his first observation, Snape hits the nail on the head. Harry may not exactly enjoy his dreams, but he does want to continue having them. By the end of the book he is as eager as Voldemort to see what is at the other side of the door to the Department of Mysteries. Snape's second observation, however, seems to come out of left field. It isn't so unusual for Snape to reinforce his opinion that Harry is nothing special - that's been his song and dance since Harry's very first Potions lesson - but this particular leap seems extreme even for him. It is an especially odd thing to say when one wonders whether or not Snape knows about the prophecy. Here are the opportunities Snape has had to find out about the prophecy - either its existence, the truncated version originally reported to Voldemort, or the full version as Dumbledore saw it: 1. Snape could have been the eavesdropper who heard Trelawney make the prophecy and reported it to Voldemort. 2. Snape was a member of Voldemort's inner circle after LV learned about the prophecy, and might very well have learned the reason that LV was suddenly so hell-bent on killing Harry and Neville. 3. If it was Snape who revealed to Dumbledore that the Potters were being targeted, it becomes even more likely that he learned the reason for it. 4. Following Voldemort's fall, Dumbledore had 14 years, up to and including Voldemort's rebirthing, to fill Snape in. For that matter, if members of the Order know about the prophecy or at least about its existence, then Snape might also have been told. 5. We're told that Voldemort has spent the year since his rebirthing obsessed with discovering the full text of the prophecy. If Snape has indeed gone back to spy on LV, it is quite likely that he heard of the prophecy from him. It is possible that Snape knows nothing about Harry's importance to Voldemort, but it is highly unlikely, and becomes even more so when we examine Harry's first Occlumency lesson. Chapter 24, Occlumency, p. 469 UK Hardcover: ---------- 'Harry's heart was pumping fast again. None of this added up. "But why does Professor Dumbledore want to stop it?" he asked abruptly. "I don't like it much, but it's been useful, hasn't it? I mean ... I saw that snake attack Mr Weasley and if I hadn't, Professor Dumbledore wouldn't have been able to save him, would he? Sir?" Snape stared at Harry for a few moments, still tracing his mouth with his finger. When he spoke again, it was slowly and deliberately, as though he weighed every word.' ---------- Snape then proceeds to give Harry the Dumbledore-approved truth - having seen through the eye of the snake at Christmas, Harry has made himself visible to Voldemort, who will try to break into Harry's mind. His carefully measured response, however, speaks volumes. While appearing to answer Harry's question he has left out the most important component - why would Voldemort choose to invade Harry's brain? Harry immediately assumes that Voldemort's purpose would be to posses him and force him to do things, and Snape does not disabuse him of this belief, even though it is patently absurd - what could Harry possibly accomplish that would be worth this effort? Later in that same lesson, Harry realizes that the corridor in his dream leads to the Department of Mysteries, and asks Snape about it: '"What did you say?" Snape asked quietly and Harry saw, with deep satisfaction, that Snape was unnerved.' Why would Snape be unnerved unless he knows that Harry is specifically *not* supposed to know about the DoM and the things it contains? Why would he so carefully evade the crux of Harry's question unless he had been carefully instructed not to allow him to learn of the existence of the prophecy? And how could he be so instructed unless he himself knew about it? Even if we were to accept, however, that Snape knows nothing about the prophecy, there is simply no way that he truly believes that Harry is neither special nor important. At the very least, Snape has to concede that Harry is important to Voldemort, and that makes him very important indeed. I think this is yet another warning. Perhaps Snape sees more clearly then we give him credit for - he recognizes himself in Harry, and doesn't like what he sees. Snape as a boy felt that he was special and important, and look where it got him. Perhaps Snape feels that the way to discourage Harry from following the same path is to disabuse him of this belief. Abigail Who has been corrected about the origin of the theory named George - apparently it was Marina who named it, not Elkins. My apologies to both of them. From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 16:17:44 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 09:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Narcissa In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030823161744.21707.qmail@web20704.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78522 Entropymail wrote: I've often wondered about Narcissa's relationship to Lily and Petunia. I know she's on the tapestry with Andromeda and Bellatrix, but I've always felt that JKR was giving us some kind of clue regarding Narcissa because her name, like the sisters Lily and Petunia, is that of a flower. No one else in the wizarding world seems to be named this way. Can it ba a clue that she may be somehow related to Lily, or could it possibly be a clue that she is simply a Deatheater counterpart of Lily's, the way Harry and Draco seem to be light/dark counterparts? Now me: I was doing a little research on name meanings today to see if their was a little more of a connection between the names Narcissa, Bellatrix, and Andromeda. Low and behold I believe that I may have hit jackpot. While the name Andromeda is a constellation (a galaxy at that) and is primarily of Greek origin. A mythical person at that. In Japan, the name or word "Andromeda has a very differente meaning. 3) n :broad-leaved evergreen Asiatic shrub with glossy leaves and drooping clusters of white flowers So, Andromeda is a flower also. Irony? Probably but I it would perhaps show a little more connection between the names Narcissa and Andromeda than what it originally appears. I can't really find any connection between Andromeda, Narcissa and Bellatrix though. So I must assume that the connection within the family lies within the second daughter Andromeda, indicating that she will be important in future books. ~Melanie ===== We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From dangermousehq at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 17:21:18 2003 From: dangermousehq at hotmail.com (Danger Mouse) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 10:21:18 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78523 Entropymail: His mom, Lily, was in Slytherin House, wasn't she? Dan: Nope! Well... maybe. We don't know--there's no canon I've ever, ever seen. But she does have green eyes which is good enough for me, lol. (mumbles something about Lily being the good non-Snape Slytherin he's been looking for) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From quigonginger at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 18:08:34 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:08:34 -0000 Subject: Filk: Fighter through the Veil Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78524 Fighter through the Veil based on Whiter Shade of Pale by Procol Harum Dedicated to Wendy St. John, cuz she's cool. Mr Neville Longbottom, accompanied by Sir Nicholas de Mimsy- Porpington on the organ, sings of his experiences in OoP. My folks were in St. Mungo's Because of that Black whore. I was feeling fear and anger, But my courage took the fore. I knew I had to fight her, So I joined with the DA When they all broke out of Azkaban I knew she had to pay. And so it was in mayhem As each curse and hex did sail, That her curse, which first hit closely, Blew our fighter through the veil. organ solo When Harry saw his vision And his Godfather did see, So he set out for the MoM I knew I had to be One of 6 teen threstraled virgins* Who would fight a deadly host. And although we fought with bravery, Our Headmaster did the most. And so it was in mayhem As each curse and hex did sail, That her curse, which first hit closely, Blew our fighter throught the veil. *with apologies to Fanfic writers Ginger From sues0101 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 13:26:07 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:26:07 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Sexual preference Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78525 >From: "say543" >Are you sure? What if there is a gay character in there already? And >no, not Harry. Has anyone thought that Tonks might be gay? She doesn't >seem like someone who would be attractive to males, for one. The whole >pink hair deal is a stereotype for a lesbian. The fact that she can >change her appearance could possibly be a metaphor for the fact that >gays historically have changed their appearance to hide themselves. >She doesn't act feminine at all. I just think that since there had >been discussion about Harry being gay for years know, that JKR changed >a member of the order from just a clumsy woman to a lesbian, to make a >statement and to answer her critics. > > Sue: Well, you do have a point. There may well be a gay character in there already. And it could be Tonks, we aren't given any indication one way or the other. However, to assume that pink hair isn't attractive to males makes a rather large assumption that men don't look past the exterior. And whilst I agree that most men think with something other than their brain (don't throw tomatoes at me either, I have just lost my cheating husband through him doing that very thing, so I'm not altogether happy with men these days), there are some out there that do. Tonks is an individual, and I like that. I dont particularly care if she's gay or not. Whether or not she acts feminine, or has pink or purple hair isn't a determining factor as to her sexuality. But I am prepared to concede, that you may have a point about JK putting in a stereotype in order to make a statement. The statement cannot be made however, unless she comes out, so to speak, and tells us that Tonks is gay. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage comes with McAfee Virus Scanning - to keep your Hotmail account and PC safe. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From lilithconnor at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 23 14:40:05 2003 From: lilithconnor at yahoo.co.uk (Lilith Kiera Connor) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:40:05 -0000 Subject: Gay characters (Was "Harry's Sexual preference") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78526 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Matt" wrote: > --- say543 wrote: > I don't expect books 6 and 7 to make an issue out > of sexual preference, but I would not be at all > surprised if our young protagonists begin to > notice the range of romantic relationships taking > place around them as they get older. I agree with all of this thread and would just like to add this point: JKR, for all that she has written brilliantly adult fiction, is billed as a children's author. I imagine this means that her publishers will set limits on what she can and cannot write about, similar to a rating on a film. She cannot write anything above at 12 certificate. She is also incredibly popular and so has to write a large commercial fan base. And this means? She can't do anything really controversial and unfortunately for all slash fans, this means writing openly gay characters in children's novels. However, to get back to Matt's point, this doesn't mean that JKR hasn't written gay characters into the books. I think that JKR will keep the main characters - namely the Trio and others of this age - straight, but has created some gay adult characters. Also, the series will end when Harry is 17. This is fairly young and in our time, means he would about to start University. This leaves plenty of scope for experimenting and changing of sexuality, and I would not be surprised if JKR hints about this in Book Seven. I believe that she cannot afford to have gay relationships openly explored in the novel, but I believe that there are many hints to show that they are present. Harry is simply oblivious to them, and as he is the voice of the novel, we can be as well. Or, we can look for the hints and see for ourselves what the true relationships are. As a Sirius/Remus Shipper amongst other things, I like to look for hints :) Numerous canon-supported arguments have been brought forth to support various SHIPs; my point is that I think at least one of them has to be true. The issue of homosexuality is a particularly active one at the moment and I do not believe JKR would just ignore it. I believe that she is very subtly putting an adult issue into a children's novel, and that adult readers can find it if they want to. ~Lilith Connor Author & Avatar http://uk.geocities.com/lilithconnor From jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net Sat Aug 23 14:43:49 2003 From: jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net (Robert Jones) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:43:49 -0000 Subject: Why do wizards wear glasses anyways? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78527 I have been reading the posts about Myrtle's glasses and earlier ones about Harry's glasses and thought of something: why do witches and wizards have to wear glasses at all? If they can correct the length of Hermione's teeth and regrow Harry's bones with potions, why can't they correct vision with potions or charms? Boris the Bewildered (who obviously wears glasses or he wouldn't have noticed this) From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 17:25:16 2003 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:25:16 -0000 Subject: Heir of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78528 >snip< > This would not be the first Arthurian referent in Potterworld (Arthur was reared in obscurity, tutored by a great wizard mentor, and revealed his lineage by pulling a sword from an unlikely place.) On the other hand there's the entirely plausible theory that the Potters were so flush with galleons because it's an inherited Gryffindor fortune, making Harry the actual heir, not just the titular one. Is there any group consensus (fanon) on the relationship between HP & GGryffindor? urghiggi, Chgo -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= The fact that the Potters were living in a place called Godric's Hollow makes me wonder. Dumbledore reference to Harry's pulling Gryffindor's sword out of Gryffindor's hat seems relevant. The conflict between Gryffindor and Slytherin makes me think that if Slytherin's heir can only be defeated by "the babe with the power", that one would be the heir of Gryffindor. I also wonder if Harry is the heir of both Gryffindor and Slytherin. He did open the CoS. And there's that whole ancestor/descendant thingy. In the end I think that Dumbledore's repeated references to choices rather than blood make sense in the light of the Pendragon comparison. Harry, as a Pendragon will be the titular heir of Dumbledore. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 23 19:02:04 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:02:04 -0000 Subject: TBAY:Kirstini's Big Theorising Adventure 1/3: A Handsome Stranger. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78529 Note to the reader ? I've finally pulled myself together enough to launch my Advanced HUMBLE theory on the world. It's massive, having had lots of help along the way from Talisman and Hayes, and so I've split it into three parts for your reading convienience. The final part is taken from an off-list email conversation between Talisman and myself, but I felt I needed to put the two other stages in to explain how we got there. Here goes ********************************************************************** It was very, very early morning now, and Kirstini had stumbled away from the George when the DENIAList wagon had rolled round again. DENIALists scared her a bit when they got together. They kept looking at her funny. Besides, she had work to do. She was now down at the Souvenir Shack, having just taken charge of a consignment of models of Abigail's new sculpture. "These are going to sell like hot cakes!" she muttered gleefully to herself, and began arranging several small pipe lattices which handily doubled up as pencil sharpeners in the window. However, she was still a little tipsy, and managed to catch the long string of beads she had taken to wearing on the window latch. Bending over to untangle them, she knocked off her new beret. "Oh, blast it!" she shouted. "Do you need a hand?" asked a voice from behind her. Kirstini wheeled around sharply. Beads sprayed across the room. She could make out a familiar looking figure silhouetted in the doorframe. "What ? oh. Stoned!Harry. How many times have I told you that this is *not* that kind of retail outlet? Stop hanging around down here and go home to bed!" Kirstini yelled. "I'm afraid there must have been some sort of misunderstanding," said the figure. "I'm not Harry, you see." He stepped forward into the light. It was like looking at Stoned!Harry, with a few deliberate mistakes. Although he had a similarly glazed look in his eye, the eyes were hazel. His nose was slightly longer than Harry's, and there was no scar on his forehead. And he was older. Kirstini estimated him to be in his early twenties. "James Potter?" said Kirstini, uncertainly. "At your service," said the man, bowing low. Kirstini backed away slightly, fearing that she was perhaps the victim of a rather elaborate practical joke ? she'd read "Snape's Worst Memory", after all ? but there was no sarcasm in his voice, and his eyes looked friendly. Vacant, but friendly. He produced a small dustpan and brush from somewhere in his baggy hip hop trousers, and began sweeping up the beads. Then he handed Kirstini back her beret. "I'm a little confused," she began. "What on earth are you doing in the Souvenir Shack at half-past three in the morning? As far as I'm aware, you aren't attached to any particular theory around here, and if you wanted to get in on the action, you'd surely be better up at the George right now. They're discussing Sirius and your role in the Prank up there. I'm here by myself, and " she tailed off, finding the fixedly friendly, helpful and mildly heroic yet modest expression on Harry's father's face a little disconcerting. "I appeared down here because I sensed I'd been - well, rather on your mind recently." he said, modestly. "Anyway, enough about me. Never really been my favourite topic, heh heh. Personally I find *you* much more interesting. May I say that that is a lovely beret you're wearing. Really suits you. Nice contrast with your hair." Kirstini was disconcerted."Oh, well, you know, they're sort of fashionable round here at the moment wait a second! You aren't James Potter at all, are you? You're MythicalConstruct!James! You're the personification of all those stories Hagrid and Sirius told Harry pre- OoP. You're nothing but a fiction ? a fiction within a fiction!" "I'm terribly sorry to have deceived you," said MythicalConstruct! James, his features vacantly sorrowful. "Perhaps perhaps you would do me the great honour of accompanying me on a little stroll?" He proffered an arm. Kirstini wondered vaguely if her mother would approve of her going for a walk with a strange man on a still-dark night, but concluded that she couldn't really be in safer hands. She locked up the Shack, and they headed down to the shore. "I must admit, you hand us all fooled." Kirstini said, conversationally. "And you're right, I have been thinking a lot about you recently." MythicalConstruct!James blushed, silently. Kirstini continued. "I was thinking that it was rather convienient that you happened to show your true colours in OoP, rather than earlier. Given the overwhelming theme of that book, and all ? ohh, puddle." Quick as a flash, MythicalConstruct!James lay himself face down over the puddle, forming a sort of fictional character bridge. Kirstini chuckled to herself, stepped delicately around the puddle, and offered him a hand up. "Really, MythicalConstuct!James. Your cloak would have done. Anyway. I had been thinking that you come to symbolise the whole Wizarding World in OoP. Back in PS, when the WW is all a shiny new adventure for Harry, there you are, the recently-discovered heroic, noble, Quidditch star daddy, right at the centre of the new world ? Head Boy at Hogwarts (somehow), well-loved by everyone, back from the grave to induct Harry into the ways of the new world in the form of the Invisibility Cloak. And then in OoP, when Harry begins to be disillusioned with the WW and discover that it's not all such a smashing adventure ? Dumbledore is fallible," (at this point MC!James made a small noise of protest, and then apologised profusely for having interrupted a lady. Kirstini ignored him politely and carried on.) "Fudge is a corrupt politico, not a bumbling old uncle in a lime green bowler, Dolores Umbridge is a monster, but not a Death Eater, and Harry is now famous in all the wrong ways ? there you are, hexing Snape, swaggering about with your gang and your Snitch and your messy hair ? and puncturing the last of Harry's illusions." MC!James hung his head, shamefully. "Oh, cheer up," Kirstini said, briskly. "After all, it wasn't really *you* doing all that, was it? You don't exist. You're a fantasy. A personification of Harry's wishes temporarily fulfilled. Sorry, I don't know how cheering a thought that is for you." However, MC!James (being rather one dimensional) wasn't really capable of existential speculation, and so perked up considerably at this. Kirstini looked at him for a while, and then began speaking again, almost to herself. "Therefore James, or what James isn't, becomes emblematic of Harry's lost innocence and burgeoning isolation. As he grows in maturity, the narrative grows with him, expanding out to be able to cope with increasingly complex moral debate, the Wizarding World is allowed to develop to mirror the increased awareness of Real World corruption which occurs around adolescence. At first, the WW had represented an escape from the extreme normalcy as espoused by the Dursleys, but now it comes increasingly to resemble it, as OoP sets up Harry against a series of norms, finally isolating him from even Ron, Hermione and Hagrid. The reader comes to realise various unsavoury truths about the WW with Harry, and some of the magic is lost. But it's all symptomatic of a greater move towards realism." Kirstini began to realise that she was on the verge of a rather large theory. What she needed was a boat. Excited, she looked around wildly for MC!James, who had wandered off. She found him helping an old lady cross a road over by the shoreline. Some small moment of serendipity lead her gaze up, up, to the huge prow of the Narrative Ark, moored nearby. "Yes." she whispered to herself. "Yes!" From patnkatng at cox.net Sat Aug 23 19:03:50 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:03:50 -0000 Subject: Flower Names (Was: Narcissa) In-Reply-To: <20030823114033.30976.qmail@web13105.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78530 After reading the etymology of Narcissa, I decided to look up the flower names found in the Potter-verse and discovered some interesting associations: Lily: Lily in Christian art is an emblem of chastity, innocence, and purity. - E. Cobham Brewer 1810?1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898. 1.Beyond reproach: blameless, exemplary, good, irreprehensible, irreproachable, unblamable. See RIGHT. 2. Free from evil and corruption: angelic, angelical, clean, innocent, pure, sinless, unblemished, uncorrupted, undefiled, unstained, unsullied, untainted, virginal - Roget's II: The New Thesaurus, Third Edition. 1995. According to http://www.cybercom.net/~klb/flowers.html, The Language of Flowers: Lily represents "Purity." Petunia: South American herbs of the family Solanaceae (nightshade family). - The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001 The Language of Flowers: Petunia represents "Not proud." Narcissus: Well covered by Odile >And according to the Penguin Dictionary of Symbols, p. >695: >"...connection of this flower with the cults of the >Underworlds... Narcissi were planted on graves. They >symbolize the numbness of death, but of a death which >is perhaps no more than a sleep." >How. Cool. Is. That. >But wait! There's more! (Fanfic authors take note?): >on p. 696: "...relates to the symbolism of water and >the seasonal cycle, and in consequence to fertility. >This is the meaning of its ambivalence - death, sleep, >rebirth." >And: >"Persephone was drugged with the scent of Narcissi >when Hades, enraptured by love of her beauty, seized >the girl and carried her off to the Underworld." In The Language of Flowers, Narcissus represents "Egotism." Violet: In the Language of Flowers, Violet represents "Faithfulness, Modesty, Innocence, and Watchfulness." Lavender: >From the Spanish lavandera (a laundress), the plant used by laundresses for scenting linen. The botanical name is Lavandula, from the Latin lavo, to wash. It is a token of affection. E. Cobham Brewer 1810?1897. Dictionary of Phrase and Fable. 1898. In Flower Language: "Distrust or Mistrust." Myrtle: According to Brewer: "If you look at a leaf of myrtle in a strong light, you will see that it is pierced with innumerable little punctures. According to fable, Ph?dra, wife of Theseus, fell in love with Hippolotus, her step-son; and when Hippolotus went to the arena to exercise his horses, Ph?dra repaired to a myrtle-tree in Tr?zen to await his return, and beguiled the time by piercing the leaves with a hair-pin. The punctures referred to are an abiding memento of this tradition." Also, "The ancient Jews believed that the eating of myrtle leaves conferred the power of detecting witches; and it was a superstition that if the leaves crackled in the hands the person beloved would prove faithful." In Flower Language, Myrtle represents "Love in Absence." Poppy The Poppy, of course, is an herb long associated with medicine and healing. In Flower Language, it represents "Consolation, Sleep, or an Antidote." Pansy Interestingly, Brewer says that Pansy in Flower Language represents the French "Pensez de moi." Think of Me. I also noted that The Jane Austin site, http://www.angelfire.com/de2/longbourn/referenceflowers.html, refers to many of these flowers and listed similar meanings. Katrina Not a flower name. From eligro2000 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 19:06:11 2003 From: eligro2000 at yahoo.com (eligro2000) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:06:11 -0000 Subject: Predicting the future, Trelawney style Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78531 Bring it on ... 1. Harry: Direct descendant of BOTH Godric Gryffindor and Salazar Slytherin. EVIDENCE: Ability to open the COS, the Sorting Hat's gift, Parseltongue, parents from Godric Hollow, yada yada dada 2. Lily Evans: Tom Riddle's daughter and Petunia Dursley's half- sister. EVIDENCE: It's all in the eyes. 3. Dumbledore done for. EVIDENCE: He's gettin' up there. Plus it's so preciously Obi-Wan. He did acknowledge that he loves Harry in OOP. His + Lily's love = one gosh darn big-a*$ protective charm. 4. Harry: Sells out the wizarding world as a Vegas headliner. His show: "Hogwash! Behind The Magic" makes millions. EVIDENCE: None. I was just looking to see if anyone actually read this far. 5. Percy: A double agent. EVIDENCE: Noted to be lurking in the COS Slytherin halls. Didn't visit his dad in hospital (who does that, I ask you?!). 6. Draco: Drawn to the light side, a la Snape. Reluctant and pissy, but ultimately a good egg (scrambled, not poached). EVIDENCE: Just a hunch. With Lucius haranguing Draco for his lack of success and now in prison ... Parental resentment can go a long way. Also, OOP foreshadowing notes that at least one Slytherin will have to help. 7. More time for time-turners. EVIDENCE: JKR said that Book 7 would explain what happens to the gang. How best to do that but through a story that involves time travel ... keep turnin' 'til the story ends right. 8. Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore and McGonagall. EVIDENCE: Who knows? The first two pairs seem perfect together. As re: the third, well, it must get lonely at Hogwarts over the summer. 9. Something will happen to Neville. EVIDENCE: Something always happens to Neville. 10. Snape will prove his worthiness by sacrificing his life to save Harry. EVIDENCE: None. But it would be a good twist! I'm out of ideas (technically, I was out of ideas circa #3) ... Feel free to shoot me down or add more to the list. E From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 23 19:09:42 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:09:42 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Kirstini's Big Theorising Adventure 2/3- An Arc on Board the Ark. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78532 Here's Part 2. Thanks to Hayes for approving my mutilation of her boat. ********************************************************************** On the deck of the Narrative Ark, Hayes was sound asleep in a hammock, having had a hard day's archiving. Some small waves were lapping round the prow, but other than that, the only noise breaking the calm were some well-bred snores from the gay box over by the stern. Suddenly ? CRACK/POP! Hayes started awake, to see Kirstini (in a stupid-looking beret) standing over her, accompanied by a young man with messy hair and glasses. "Morning!" said Kirstini brightly. "Is it?" Hayes asked, glancing dimly at the sky. It still looked pretty dark to her. "Hayes, I had to come. I've had an idea. And I brought you breakfast." Hayes noticed that Kirstini was holding a steaming cafetiere and a plate with one of her own HUMBLE PIES on it. "MC!James, would you mind ?" The young man with Kirstini began setting up a small table with two chairs on deck. He then toddled over to the hammock, and offered Hayes an arm. As Kirstini produced mugs and forks from her voluminous overcoat, the young man pulled out a chair for Hayes, and checked four times that she was quite comfortable. "This is MythicalConstruct!James." said Kirstini. "He insisted on escorting me. Have you got any heavy furniture that needs moved or anything? He loves helping. He's kind of like a house elf in that respect." "Actually, there are some huge crates down in the archives that I couldn't get open." Hayes said, blearily. "Say no more, fair lady!" said the young man, hurrying off to the cabin. "Thank goodness for that. He was beginning to get on my nerves." said Kirstini. "Kirstini, I don't mean to be rude, but what on earth are you doing here? Dawn is yet to crack, and I got to bed sort of late last night " "Bed! I haven't been to bed yet!" said Kirstini, airily. That explained a lot, Hayes thought to herself, as she sipped the very nice coffee Kirstini had brought. Kirstini had paused to look around the vessel, her eyes shining. "A learning curve, an arc, a Narrative Ark! It's brilliant, Hayes, it's brilliant! I wonder if you would be interested in a small proposition? Not - not a business proposition necessarily -" Kirstini said, hastily, seeing the familiar closed expression appear on her potential partner's face. "More of a re-positioning, if you like. You see, I need a ship, and this one is absolutely perfect. I don't think I could do any better if I'd designed it myself. And Hayes, you like HUMBLE PIE, don't you! Yes. It's perfect. Perfect." "Kirstini, what are you talking about? I don't want to reposition the Narrative Ark. I told you, we're not a ship with can(n)ons per se; we are more of, um, a reference ship. We help support theories that develop either through arguments about how the Harry Potter narrative has developed internally and we also house an extensive collection of great reads for analogical sources. We are not a theorising vessel in ourselves." "Yes, yes, yes, but they have the Canon Museum on shore doing something vaguely similar," said Kirstini, impatiently. "Hayes, I could make you Captain of such a seaworthy theory. Imagine hundreds of shining, golden can(n)ons bursting out of that prow. This ship could be the envy of the whole Bay, Hayes. Please, please, hear me out." Hayes, looking rather uncertain, took a large gulp of coffee. Kirstini began. "I suppose, really, this theory started with HUMBLE PIE. Or rather, just the HUMBLE bit. PIE, PIPE and PINE aren't really relevant at this point. HUMBLE, as well you know, stands for How Umbridge Modernises Badness/Light Enquiries - how the introduction of Dolores Umbridge, undoubtedly evil, and yet not siding with Voldemort, opens up the text to new interpretations of "good" and "evil", and constitutes a move away from the child's black/white understanding of these concepts as fixed binary opposites, as espoused by the first four books. Suddenly, the debate becomes focused on facets of human character instead. I suppose, at it's most basic level, what I'm trying to get at is: as Harry grows up, so does the narrative. Our first can(n)on would be Umbridge herself - her entire existence." Kirstini scooped out the inside of the HUMBLE PIE, and dropped it onto the deck "No!" Hayes cried (she had always hated mess, and was beginning to wonder if her guest hadn't gone a little bit insane). But to her surprise, where she had expected to see a blob of sickly pink goo, there was a large (pinkish) can(n)on, shimmering in the beginnings of dawn light. Kirstini nodded sagely at it, and then continued. "Our second canon would be a handy little mission statement made by Sirius in OotP. I call it a mission statement, because it describes perfectly the new phase that JKR seems to be moving into. Here we go..." (she had been flicking hastily through a handy, pocket-sized version of OotP, roughly the shape of a large breezeblock brick) "Page 271, Bloomsbury. You probably know it already, as I used it to advertise the HUMBLE PIES, and you're such a fan." Hayes nodded, weakly. "Ah, yes. " '...the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters.' said Sirius with a wry smile."" As she spoke, an enormous, golden can(n)on appeared on the ship with a clang. Hayes gave a muffled squeak, and refilled her mug. "Funny, isn't it," Kirstini continued, "as that's exactly the way JKR *has* divided the world up until OotP. Or the Wizarding world, anyway. Good people, Death Eaters. Prior to OotP, there are three characters who break this rule. One is Snape, both good person and Death Eater, but bending the definition of each term. The other two didn't show themselves until at least halfway through GoF. Rita Skeeter - eventually ends up working for the good side, but only because she's being blackmailed into it; and Cornelius Fudge, who's in there due to his horrible little head-in-the-sand routine at the end of GoF, which, as we know, leads him to much, much more wrong- doing in OotP. Fudge and Rita's lines of development in OotP are extra can(n)on for us," (two small cannons positioned themselves on the starboard side of the deck as she spoke) "and Harry's realisation of Snape's troubled past, containing as it does the beginnings of an understanding of Snape beyond the two dimensional is another whacking great can(n)on." Said whacking great can(n)on did indeed appear, a silver one this time. "Let me get this straight," said Hayes. "You're proposing that we turn the Narrative Ark into a vessel housing your theory that the narrative is following a - well, an arc, moving towards maturity and complexity of character, narrative and plot, and away from childish conceptions of good and evil, as it follows Harry's own development?" "Pretty much," said Kirstini. "It's a movement that I've identified in OotP. She's slowly taking the books away from children's writing, towards something that I can only describe as realism, although I know that's a rather silly claim to make about a series about wizards. "Snape's Worst Memory" is our best can(n)on, I think, which is why I'm rather down on people trying to claim that it's all subjective, and James Potter couldn't have been that bad after all. Yes he was. It's perfect ? the shattering of the father-as-hero or icon; removing him instantly from the pedestal and giving way to a realistic conception of human flaws." Hayes groaned, and the deck groaned with her, as the "Snape's Worst Memory" can(n)on landed on deck and snuggled up to the mission statement can(n)on. "See, everything comes in twos on the Narrative Ark," said Kirstini happily. Suddenly, she whipped around to face Hayes, her forefingers aloft. "The Dursleys!" she cried, with relish. "The Dursleys are *fantastic* can(n)on for this theory. Listen! It's this bit about Aunt Petunia, p.39 Bloomsbury: " 'Back?' whispered Aunt Petunia. She was looking at Harry as she had never looked at him before. And all of a sudden, for the very first time in his life, Harry fully appreciated that Aunt Petunia was his mother's sister. He could not have said why this hit him so very powerfully at this moment. All he knew was that he was not the only person in the room who had an inkling of what Lord Voldemort being back might mean. Aunt Petunia had never in her life looked at him like that before. Her large pale eyes (so unlike her sister's) were not narrowed in dislike or anger, the were wide and fearful." - You see?" Kirstini asked, triumphantly (and rhetorically, thought Hayes). "It's the first time Harry has any realisation that Aunt Petunia - or any of the Dursleys -might be a human being rather than a caricature?" she ventured. "That's the general idea, but it's not the first time. It's about Dudley..." "Hang on a second. If this is going to be a rehash of your gay Dudley theory...." said Hayes, standing up. "I've already told you, I've got Justin Finch-Fletchley in the gay box, and that's where he's staying. Now I've let you get away with a lot of changes on board my ship so far, but don't think I'm going to stand back and let you waltz all over my own pet theory...." "Hey, hey, Hayes..." said Kirstini, and then laughed at herself. "Sorry. Anyway, I was just going to say that this doesn't have to have anything too do with Dudley's sexual orientation. It's all pure can(n)on.. Look at this bit, a few pages earlier, on 33." Here she indicated a passage of text. Hayes read: " despite the sense of numb dread that had settled on Harry since the arrival of the first owl, he felt a certain curiosity. Dementors caused a person to relive the worst moments of their life. What would spoiled, pampered, bullying Dudley have been forced to hear?" "It's not much" said Kirstini, "but it's a start. Suddenly, Dudley has potential for a much more complex, and interesting personality. Just with that one sentence. And she also creates potential for Harry to feel some sort of sympathy with them - with both of them, Dudley and Petunia, which she has never done before. All the characters are becoming better rounded, more complex, as understood by an older Harry. OotP is the book in which Neville finally grows out of the sentence that has been used in every book to describe him: " a round- faced, forgetful boy" and develops into the character with the most touching scene in the book. Ginny, too. She finally gets over the crush on Harry, and becomes a noisy, bright, dominant, *developed* character. We also have the introduction of the D.A, which introduces us to Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws, and gives them character and often quite complex motivation (think Susan Bones, no more than a name for years, now with feelings and a vaguely similar experience to Harry's) to distinguish them from the pack. Not to mention the first non-Gryff main student character in Luna Lovegood. It all fits, you see? "Well, that's the general idea. As a theory it doesn't make too many particular demands on the outcome of the next two books, because we're really more concerned with theme and it's expression in narrative technique ? with morality and realism. I do have some requirements, though. I need Peter Pettigrew to have been a Gryffindor gone wrong, rather than just another sneaky Slytherin. Because at the moment, the Gryffs are still rather infallible. Lavender and Parvati might be a bit bitchy, and Seamus a bit gullible, but none of them have really transgressed as yet, have they? Not even him, really. " (here she jerked a thumb at the empty PIE crust) You see? On that note, the one problem I'm having at the moment is the Slytherins. They're all so blooming one-dimensional. They all just hang about in gangs and say nasty things to whichever of the Trio happens tobe the least popular at that point. My theory requires a Good(ish) Slyth to make his or her appearance at some point fairly early on in Book 6, or at least for one of them to start developing human attributes. I was holding out hope for that little boy he could see the Thestrals, but..." she shook her head sadly, as a child's catapult appeared on deck with a clatter, "no can(n)on in it. None at all." She paused, rather despondently, before perking up again. " I had an idea for our uniform too," she said, pulling off her overcoat to reveal that she was wearing a tunic in various shades of shimmering grey, with a thin black band down one side and a similar white band on the other. Hayes noticed that she had discarded the ill- advised beret, and was fastening a matching scarf around her head. "Shades of grey, you see! Because I haven't managed to come up with an acronym yet. I could run you up a really official looking one, with a captain's hat, and stars and stuff? So, what do you say, Hayes? Will you let me house my theory about the narrative arc on board the Narrative Ark? Can I come on board? Can I be co-captain? I'll keep the can(n)ons up here all the time, so they won't interfere with your archival work, I promise. And I'll throw in MC!James as a sort of deckhand if you want?" Hayes thought for a minute, and then said "Alright then. I must say I really do like this idea about a move towards realism, even if I'm a little unsure about the co-captaincy. For the moment you can be First Mate. And there may well be room for Dudley in the gay box after all. However, I must make one stipulation. The Narrative Ark has always been a peaceful vessel. If you come along, loading up the deck with can(n)ons, you're going to attract us some possibly unwanted attention. Particularly from over there." Kirstini followed Hayes' outstretched finger in the direction of the Big Bang Destroyer. "Oh, no Hayes, it's all perfectly sea-worthy." Kirstini said. "I didn't mean in that way. A moral landscape in various shades of grey is all very well, but shades of grey don't Bang, do they? . Neither does a narrative movement towards realism. Captain Cindy could interpret our re-launch as aggressive action. We need to prove to her somehow that the two theories are not completely incompatible. Is there any way you can make your unnamed theory sit in harmony with the Big Bang? I think we should follow some sort of program of appeasement." " Well, we could send her over Ever So Dead Dean Thomas (1)," Kirstini suggested."I know he's kind of Bangsty, but since OotP, they've been a bit starved for real, true Bangs over there. Cindy said so herself. She might like him. We could send him over with a note saying that we'll send her another present at the same time tomorrow. Gain her trust, you know?" "Right, you get on to that, while I consider your co-captaincy." said Hayes, now sounding remarkably alert. "And MC!James, if you wouldn't mind giving the decks a bit of a swab..ow! Kirstini, what on earth is this?" Hayes pointed angrily at a large, foul-smelling joint of meat, and rubbed her shin. "Oh, I wasn't going to show you that immediately. Umm...it's a DITCH HAM." "A DITCH HAM? What is a DITCH HAM doing on board the Narrative Ark?" "Well, it stands for Dudley In The Closet Helps Harry Achieve Maturity." said Kirstini sheepishly. "I thought we could carve a lovely little lifeboat out of it " 1) See posts 72765 and 73322 for Hayes and Kirstini's Big Killing Dean Thomas Adventure. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 23 19:14:12 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:14:12 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Kirstini's Big Theorising Adventure 3/3 - Timely Intervention. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78533 Here's Part 3, which, as I noted before, is based almost entirely on an email conversation between myself and Talisman. I've not really edited, so everything Talisman said has been left intact. ********************************************************************** On board the Narrative Ark, Captain Hayes and Temporary First Mate Kirstini had finally sat down to breakfast, having moved down to the cabin because the wind kept knocking their cups over upstairs. MC! James was sitting very still in the corner, dumbly heroic. Hayes and Kirstini were chatting about the interesting shift in morality in OotP, Kirstini going over the revolutionary presence of Dolores Umbridge for the umpteenth time. "I've personally felt that ethical questions in the first two books especially, were fairly clear cut black/white. With the exception of Snape, the child's eye-view knows who is good and who bad, and so it goes (muddying slightly as it touches off Sirius) until Umbridge appears " she was saying, when she was interrupted by a loud shrieking noise. A set of red velvet curtains in the cabin had burst open, and a portrait of a woman was shouting at them from the corner of the room. "Wrong! You're wrong you know! Besmirching the Ark of my fathers with your incorrect theories! You're both wrong!" "Oh, sorry about that," said Hayes. "She was just sort of there, when I took over the Ark. I can't move her, for some reason. But normally she's very well- behaved, she just sits there, theorising quietly." "We could go and see if George is still open. He might do us breakfast. Apparently he's recently branched out into haute cusine." Kirstini suggested, rubbing her throbbing head. "No, no, no. You can't escape me, or the fact of your incorrectness! I have a portrait in the Royal George too!" shrieked the woman. "You have to listen to wise old Talisman! Listen!" "S'pose we might as well." said Hayes, who was still feeling rather weak from lack of sleep. "Alright. What is it?" said Kirstini, grumpily. Now that they were actually paying her attention, the portrait seemed to calm down. "I merely wanted to point out that your idea that OotP marks some sort of enormous shift in morality is rather ill-informed. JKR has depicted a moral spectrum in infinite shades of grey since day one." "Go on," said Kirstini, her interest piqued. "Let's see." Talisman said. "Dumbledore is a very popular character. But I've never recovered from the wrongness of leaving Harry to be abused at the Dursleys. In every single book I've had to close my mind to this abandonment in order to try to like Dumbledore. Many people posted protests (long ago) but then either the topic got too old, or readers became inured. (Instead of placating me, Dumbledore's speech in OoP convinced me that what I've felt all along is right.) "The Goblins are certainly amoral. They use dragons and magic doors (that trap culprits who are then left to starve) to protect valuables. You know, under American law that would be murder. I suspect it's the same in Britain. No civilized country has had the death-penalty for theft in quite a long time. But Dumbledore and Hagrid, etc. accept this as a good thing. "I won't go to far into my theory that the SS was Voldemort bait, and that DD knew Quirrell was giving Voldy a ride. It's enough that there is consensus that DD choreographed Harry's confrontation with Voldemort. Wanted Harry to confront Voldemort. Again, when this was new, many people were upset by the idea that a teacher/parent figure would do that. "And, of course, in order to follow the clues and helps that DD gives him, Harry & Co. have to break rules and lie repeatedly. No one really likes Hermione until she starts breaking rules. When Harry is in Quirrellmorts clutches, and made to look in the Mirror of Erised, He thinks: "I must lie." What a beautiful comparison to the message Umbridge's quill etches into Harry's hand: "I must not lie." "Everyone knows that Hagrid is good. But he breaks wizard law by taking a contraband dragon's egg. Draco, whom everyone knows is bad, is going to tell the authorities. So HRH have to ask Charlie to take the dragon away. Charlie/Charlie's friends agree immediately, though of course they'll have to do it at night because--it's illegal. Harry defies Prof. Hooch's directions not to fly and we are to think it's o.k. because why? He wants to fight with Draco over Neville's bauble? He is rewarded by being made youngest seeker in 100 years and getting a free Nimbus 2000. Of course, Snape remains a very ambivalent character, for most people. But I have a feeling you already covered that. It almost sounds like you think Umbridge is an ambivelent character. I've never considered her anything but pure evil. Ditto all the kids I know (i.e. for the child's eye- view)." Kirstini and Hayes had been staring at her in admiration, and neither quite realised that they were expected to speak for a while. "Of course. You're right." said Kirstini, finally. "What I was trying to get at was that Umbridge is really a personification of the upside-down morality that you identified throughout the series. I was positing OoP as a rather revolutionary, almost subversive book (within the series as well as within the scope of traditional children's literature), as it mirrors the adolescent rebellion against authority at various levels. Textually: Hogwarts, Government, the emotional response against DD and MythicalConstruct! James here. Ultra-textually: in that the book turns Harry into an anti-hero within the scope of traditional children's lit, and not just by a realistic portrayal of adolescence. "Harry's trajectory now offers a deviation away from two norms: Muggledom, which we could also call real world adult normalcy/responsibility; and peer-group, which splits itself into two categories again. There's WW normalcy: Daily Prophet readers, Inquistorial!Draco not only sanctioned but given authority; there's also the isolation from Ron and Hermione which Harry feels throughout the book, which prepares us for that agonising point at the end, where Harry has really outgrown both his friends and Hagrid. JKR tries to temper this note of isolation at the end with the little station incident ? Harry has people on his side ? however, the dye has already been cast for the trajectory of the series. Not optimistic. "So ? back to Umbridge. I posited a theory some time ago called HUMBLE PIE (How Umbridge Modernises Badness Light Enquiries ? Percy Is Evil. The PIE bit isn't that important - I was hoping to branch out into a range of products...), arguing that Umbridge introduces an entirely new note into the moral schema of the series. Yes, as you pointed out, way back in PS, Draco was with the law, and Harry against it, but Draco, and his racist beliefs, have always been firmly associated with his support for Voldemort. Draco = Bad. "Then Umbridge comes along. She's racist, she's arguably the most evil character in the book (perhaps more so than panto villain Voldy and his glamorous assistant, esp. to grown-up readers as more chillingly realistic), she creates most of the problems for Harry. She's *not* a DE. She's technically "good", in that case. But then you have Sirius' statement ? "the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters"? and bang! The first time that *Harry* realises that it isn't. "You see," she said, adjusting her chair so that she could address the whole room, "this is where I was going wrong. The "child's-eye- view" comment I made operated on two levels ? I was talking about the focalisation of the narrative through Harry, but also the method of narration, pointing to an increasing sophistication of not only literary technique but *theme* throughout the books. What I hadn't quite allowed for, and what you, Talisman, may have just helped me to restructure, is the fact that Harry and the narrative really are "in essence divided". The moral spectrum has always been there, glowing in its varying greynesses. The WW has always been a dodgy kinda place, because wizards aren't just cute, quirky people in funny clothes, they are humans. And humans really can't be trusted with magical power, because they are ultimately all self-motivated to some degree; therefore magical power, like any other kind of power (as we see increasingly) is abused. The trouble is that the reader is limited to Harry's development. This development is *narrated* (and has always been) by someone who knows much more than the protagonist, but who holds her knowledge back, keeping herself unobtrusive that the reader is forced to discover/develop themselves at the same pace as Harry - often frustratingly)." Kirstini stopped, and glanced around the room. Talisman was nodding away in the corner. Hayes was still seated, apparently mulling over what she'd just said. Kirstini got to her feet. "And now I really, really have to get some sleep. Finally. I've had one helluva night." she said, as MC!James scooped her up in his arms and bore her off to be tucked into a hammock. From ajlboston at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 19:17:59 2003 From: ajlboston at yahoo.com (ajlboston) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:17:59 -0000 Subject: a last tiny thought on Ron the Quidditch seer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78534 I suppose I might as well mention that after all the threads/theory that Ron is a latent seer BEFORE OOP, in OOP the part where he describes how he had a feeling that the opposing Quidditch player was going to fake and go the other way, and he went and headed him off, made me wonder. Perhaps since he finally relaxed for the final game, and might start to notice his prowess, he might both become a scarily good keeper (or captain, making his Erised vision more seerlike) or start to recognize any seer abilities he might have as possible (because he sees it happening in Quidditch). Anyhow! We will see. A.J. From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 23 19:20:00 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:20:00 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Wizard Economics References: <1061609464.8781.55437.m8@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <004501c369ab$8e7ebae0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 78535 Anna: >Regardless of what their salary is, I wonder where the money comes >from. Do Hogwarts students pay tuition? I find it difficult to >believe that the Weasley family could afford to send seven children >to Hogwarts if it is expensive. At one point Percy, Fred, George, >Ron and Ginny are there at the same time. Maybe children of >Ministry employees are given a discount. Maybe Hogwarts is Ministry >funded. Who pays Ministry employees? Do wizards pay income taxes. >How is Azkaban funded? Is St. Mungos a private hospital or is it >publically funded? Who develops wizard fiscal policy? Just Curious. Although death and taxes are supposed to be the two things you just can't avoid, so far the books have only mentioned the first one! There have been previous threads about whether Hogwarts is a fee-charging school, though personally, I don't think that canon establishes it - it's certainly never mentioned explicitly (and I would have thought that if it was, then it would have been, especially in the Weasley context. JKR includes numerous conversations where their difficulty in managing is mentioned. An alternative theory is that there are two methods of wealth creation in the WW. The first is the regular way: people make things and sell them. The second is that a vault at Gringott's has some sort of magical growth spell on it: if you leave your money there, it grows year by year. So that if your holdings are large enough, then the interest on them earns enough for your needs without you needing to work or anything. Therefore if Hogwarts has, over the years (and perhaps since the Founding) had a large enough lump sum in the vaults, its day to day running costs for salaries, food, supplies, etc are always covered without needing to dip into the capital or raise funds by any other means. St Mungo's appears to follow the pre-Health Service UK model for hospitals. They used to have to raise their own funds by collections, donations, legacies, and so on. Notice that Lucius Malfoy has given them sizeable donations. Also the collection point at the MoM. For the Ministry itself, the question is a bit more interesting. The size of the bureaucracy is large in terms of our own societies (and if you assume that the number of wizards is fairly small, it's absolutely _huge_) - OoP mentions "hundreds" of civil servants arriving for work when Harry and Arthur are going in (and Arthur's come in a bit early). The MoM is a _very_ big place (because keeping the WW hidden at all times is a very big job). A lot of wizards are likely to be outstationed at more distant locations as well, plus possibly some at Azkaban dealing with the administration (I think Azkaban is run directly by the ministry, a bit like the Home Office running the prisons in our world). So where does the MoM get funds to pay its employees? Certainly the wages aren't very high (one way in which the WW is absolutely identical to our own (yes, I am a civil servant IRL!)) - Arthur is pretty senior in his own department but his family have a struggle to get by: Newt Scamander wrote his book to supplement his wages; Ludo Bagman can't pay his gambling debts despite being a Head of Department. But you still need a lot of cash. I once wondered whether the MoM also had some sort of endowment (possibly by confiscating the funds of those sent to Azkaban (attainder, as it used to be known in our world) but clearly that can't be so, because Sirius still has access to his vault and the family house despite having been imprisoned as a DE. I really don't think there's enough in canon to establish whether the MoM do levy taxes, though I can't see a clear alternative. But the informal nature of the WW economy makes it difficult to see how and where they'd be able to do it (I can't see Mundungus Fletcher staying still long enough to be assessed for income tax, for example!) Direct taxation is fairly recent in our world - just 200 years - and universal direct taxation is less than 100 years old so possibly there is some sort of indirect taxation. On property perhaps? Though if so, why hasn't the Black home been repossessed for 10 years of back taxes? On sales? But it's quite possible that a lot of transactions take the form of barter rather than sales for cash. So many questions... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sat Aug 23 19:29:55 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:29:55 -0000 Subject: Predicting the future, Trelawney style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78536 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eligro2000" wrote: > Bring it on ... > > 1. Harry: Direct descendant of BOTH Godric Gryffindor and Salazar > Slytherin. > EVIDENCE: Ability to open the COS, the Sorting Hat's gift, > Parseltongue, parents from Godric Hollow, yada yada dada I admit, it is possible, especially the relationship to Gryffindor, but I really hope that it isn't the case. It would make "blood" to important, IMO. > 2. Lily Evans: Tom Riddle's daughter and Petunia Dursley's half- > sister. > EVIDENCE: It's all in the eyes. I don't accept that evidence. I don't know if you are serious or joking, but this is really to far fetched. Just because Lily has green eyes, you can't conclude she is Voldemort's daughter. She has also red hair, does that make her the heir of Gryffindor? Also, I think it would destroy the irony, that it was a "mudblood", who really caused Voldemort's first downfall. > > 3. Dumbledore done for. > EVIDENCE: He's gettin' up there. Plus it's so preciously Obi-Wan. He > did acknowledge that he loves Harry in OOP. His + Lily's love = one > gosh darn big-a*$ protective charm. I think the time will come during these books, when Dumbledore will die. Maybe he will come back as a portrait, than he can still give Harry some advices, but his power would be gone nonetheless. > > > 5. Percy: A double agent. > EVIDENCE: Noted to be lurking in the COS Slytherin halls. Didn't > visit his dad in hospital (who does that, I ask you?!). He lurked in the Slytherin halls, because he was meeting Penelope. She was the person Harry and Ron met before Percy. Also, if Percy would indeed go evil, it will probably be, because he is power hungry. But during COS, Voldemort was completely powerless, so why would Percy work for him against the powerful Dumbledore? The fact, that he didn't visit Arthur is bad, but that doesn't make him a double agent. > > 6. Draco: Drawn to the light side, a la Snape. Reluctant and pissy, > but ultimately a good egg (scrambled, not poached). > EVIDENCE: Just a hunch. With Lucius haranguing Draco for his lack of > success and now in prison ... Parental resentment can go a long way. > Also, OOP foreshadowing notes that at least one Slytherin will have > to help. Yes, but I think this Slytherin won't be Draco. In contrast, he will probably become really evil now, trying to revenge Lucius. I am absolutely biased, because I loathe Draco Malfoy like probably none other character in these books (well Umbridge comes close), but I don't see him ever joining the good site. My guess for the good Slytherin is Theodore Nott. Harry didn't know him although he has some classes with him (at least Potions, maybe also COMC), that he means he probably remains silent mostly, and isn't part of Malfoys gang. He could have just been upset about the Quibbler article. > > 7. More time for time-turners. > EVIDENCE: JKR said that Book 7 would explain what happens to the > gang. How best to do that but through a story that involves time > travel ... keep turnin' 'til the story ends right. If I recall right, she said she wanted to write an epilogue. > > 8. Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore and McGonagall. > EVIDENCE: Who knows? The first two pairs seem perfect together. As > re: the third, well, it must get lonely at Hogwarts over the summer. I am all for Ron/Hermione. About the others: Why not? *g* > > 9. Something will happen to Neville. > EVIDENCE: Something always happens to Neville. Indeed. > > 10. Snape will prove his worthiness by sacrificing his life to save > Harry. > EVIDENCE: None. But it would be a good twist! Yes, it would. But I still hope, that he survives. Hickengruendler > From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 19:57:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:57:05 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses, Basilisk, Camera, Ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78537 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dave" wrote: > ... Why then was Myrtle killed when viewing the basilisk straight > through her glasses(CS 16)? Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, > she should only have been petrified because of her glasses just as > the camera and Nick saved the other two. > > -SD First, let's ask a fundamental question about Basilisks. Exactly how does a Basilisk kill you with a look? Do you have to look INTO it's eyes or do you merely have to see it's eyes? For example, if you were standing off to the side hiding, and you could see the Basilisk's head and therefore, it's eyes, would you die? I don't think so. I think that is how Tom Riddle was able to look at and command the Basilisk without being injured. It's not just seeing the Basilisk's eyes; it has to be eye-to-eye contact. So, let's refine it a bit further. If a basilisk looks into your eyes but you don't look into it's, or if you look into a basilisk's eyes but it doesn't look into yours would you be hurt or injure? This is harder to resolve, and I will point out, it's also much harder for this situation to occur. The best we can say is you would definitely be injured, and probably dead; but just probably. Of course, when you and the basilisk are looking directly into each other's eyes, you are dead dead dead. Although, Basilisk intent could also come into play. There could be a difference between a Basilisk looking into your eye, and looking into your eyes with deadly intent. I suspect this particular issue can never be resolved by anything but a random guess. Now, let's look at the injured people and their situations. Justin/Nick - Nearly Headless nick acted as a barrier between Justin and the Basilisk, or if you prefer, more like a filter. Visible ghost have to have some apparent density for them to be visible. That is, they must have some substance, even if it is a ghostly, ethereal, ectoplasmic substance. So, looking at the Basilisk through Nearly Headless Nick would have been like seeing it through dense smoke. Some eye-to-eye contact would have occurred but it would have been mostly obscured. This would prevent Justin from getting the full impact of the deadly look. Nick would have absorbed most of it like a filter, thus saving Justin. Colin/Camera - If the camera is one of several types where you do not see the image you are going to shoot directly, but the reflection of that image through mirrors and/or prisms, and lenses, then the matter is settled. You are not looking directly at the Basilisk, so you don't get the full impact. If it is a simple box camera where you look straight through a series of lenses that mostly distort the size of the image, the matter gets more complex. So, let's look closer. First, when you look through a camera like this, it's blocking your face; no one can see or see into your eyes. Second, it's like looking through the wrong end of a telescope or the wrong end of binoculars; everything is reduced in size. Because the image was reduced in sized, it would have been harder for Colin to look into the Basilisk's eyes. Certainly, he could have seen where the Basilisk's eyes were, and even safe to say, he could not only detect the location, but actually see the eyes. But when they were as tiny as the camrea mades them, he would have had difficultly gazing deep into the Basilisks eyes. And again, I point out that the Basilisk would have been unable to look into Colin's eyes because the camera would have been blocking them. So, we lack any real eye-to-eye contact. Therefore, Colin is only pertrified. Myrtle/Glasses - There is a big difference between looking through a piece of glass and looking at the reflection in a piece of glass. Any reflection is not the object itself. You are not seeing a Basilisk, you are seeing a visual duplication of the image of the object. So a reflection in a mirror or window would not produce the same effect as a direct look. Looking through glass is completely different; through glass, you are looking directly into they eyes of the Basilisk, and while some amount of the original image will be absorbed by even the best glass, that amount is insignificant. Until the quality of glass becomes so bad that it actually obscures the Basilisk, you are still making eye-to-eye contact. So, you die because, glass or no glass, you are still looking directly into the eyes of a Basilisk. Bang... you're dead. That seem reasonable to me. bboy_mn From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 20:11:00 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:11:00 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78538 > md (after snipping per my elf's instructions): > I've been thinking about how Dumbledore uses Hogwarts as a > safe house of sorts. Trewlaney was hired after the prophecy, and > Dumbledore absoutely refused to let her leave after she was > fired by Umbridge. Snape has stayed there sincethe fall of > Voldemort. > > While I'm not conviced it has anything to do with Harry's family, I > do wonder whether McGonagall did something or have > something happen that requires her to stay at Hogwarts for her > protection or safety. > > serious_schwartz I'm rereading OOP, and I realized that my theory is all bunk because Sirius said he used to stay with James's parentS. I suppose I just want to know exactly how McGonagall fits into the story. It seems like she should have some important role, besides being Harry's Transfiguration teacher and a member of the Order. She's a prominent character. She was at the Dursleys', waiting on Dumbledore, when he brought Harry there, so she must have some important connection. I like the point you've made. I wonder if Dumbledore was trying to protect her, as he did Snape and Trelawney, as well as Hagrid and Firenze. Jeez, Hogwarts IS a safehouse! Elli From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 20:28:17 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:28:17 -0000 Subject: Heir of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78539 >snip< > I also wonder if Harry is the heir of both Gryffindor and > Slytherin. He did open the CoS. > > In the end I think that Dumbledore's repeated references to choices > rather than blood make sense Yes, yes yes! Harry is descended from both Slytherin and Gryffindor, and he has to chose which one to resemble! Maybe? From rvotaw at i-55.com Sat Aug 23 20:32:01 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 15:32:01 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin References: Message-ID: <007c01c369b5$9c339890$70a3cdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 78540 Entropymail: > > His mom, Lily, was in Slytherin House, wasn't she? Dan: > Nope! Well... maybe. We don't know--there's no canon I've ever, ever seen. But she does have green > eyes which is good enough for me, lol. (mumbles something about Lily being the good non-Snape > Slytherin he's been looking for) Well, Harry has green eyes, and he's not in Slytherin. :) Anyway, it's not in the books, but JKR has confirmed in an interview that Lily was in Gryffindor. This was covered in the October 16, 2000 Scholsatic interview. The exact quote is: Question: "Which house was Lily Potter in, and what was her maiden name?" JKR's answer: "Her maiden name was Evans, and she was in Gryffindor (naturally)." So I think that confirms it. Anyway, this all ties in to the Lily related to Voldemort/Riddle issue. And while I think it's highly improbable for her to be a descendent of Riddle (as he was the last remaining descendent/whatever word your edition has :)of Voldemort, I still think she could be related. My own personal theory has Voldemort/Riddle having a (half)sister --this one a full blood Muggle. Who in turn married an Evans and had two daughters--Lily and Petunia. Nothing whatsoever to support that, but I don't think there is anything to refute it either. It would make Voldemort Lily's uncle and Harry's great uncle. Of course, the only way Harry could ever have been the heir of Slytherin is if it is a chosen heir and not strictly by bloodlines, or else how could Riddle have been the last descendent? Still, if Slytherin was into the pure blood thing, and Sirius said all pure bloods are related somehow, how could the bloodline die out? Richelle From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 23 20:40:29 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:40:29 -0000 Subject: Gay Character (was: Harry's Sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78541 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" wrote: > Are you sure? What if there is a gay character in there already? And > no, not Harry. Has anyone thought that Tonks might be gay? While IIRC several people have suggested that Tonks fits some (contemporary) lesbian stereotype or other, she is not the first character to do so. When we met Professor Grubbly-Plank as substitute CoMC teacher in GoF: "an elderly witch with closely cropped grey hair and a very prominent chin" she "barks" at them and speaks "briskly" and "shortly", she teaches Unicorns and says: "Boys keep back! Girls to the front," and I was *sure* that JKR had inserted a not very affectionate parody of a political lesbian. (Do the under-40s know what a 'political lesbian' is? My short and biased explanation: a woman who CHOSE to be a lesbian because of an ideological belief that all men are evil and almost all women are good.) I was very relieved that Professor Grubbly-Plank is portrayed much nicer in OoP. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 20:42:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:42:24 -0000 Subject: Why do wizards wear glasses anyways? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78542 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Robert Jones" wrote: > I have been reading the posts about Myrtle's glasses and earlier > ones about Harry's glasses and thought of something: why do witches > and wizards have to wear glasses at all? If they can correct the > length of Hermione's teeth and regrow Harry's bones with potions, > why can't they correct vision with potions or charms? > > Boris the Bewildered (who obviously wears glasses or he wouldn't > have noticed this) bboy_mn: Here is a link to a recent thread that addresses those very questions. Harry's Eyes- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77027 My personal response to this thread- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/77331 bboy_mn From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 23 20:50:00 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:50:00 -0000 Subject: Gay characters (Was "Harry's Sexual preference") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78543 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lilith Kiera Connor" wrote: > JKR, for all that she has written brilliantly adult fiction, is > billed as a children's author. I imagine this means that her > publishers will set limits on what she can and cannot write about, > similar to a rating on a film. She cannot write anything above at > 12 certificate. She is also incredibly popular and so has to write > a large commercial fan base. I apologise for adding to the volume of posts, but I don't like people saying what JKR can or can't do because she is such a popular author for children. I don't believe that she has signed a contract giving Bloomsbury or Scholastic or Warner Brothers veto power over what she writes in her books. So all the publishers could do is refuse to publish the Book 6 or 7 (or 8 or 9 ... ) that she hands in to them. With her popularity, someone else would be eager to publish the rejected JKR manuscript. Even if the new book contained highly controversial material (or just plain very bad writing) resulting in very negative reviews and downright News Articles warning parents not to let their children read it, there would be enough people reading it for love of the previous books or for curiosity of the controversy that it would still be a best seller. Even if JKR lacked confidence that she could find another publisher, she has enough money already for all normal purposes. She could afford to self-publish the next book and GIVE AWAY 200,000 copies and still have as much money as she needs for the rest of her life. From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 20:53:22 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 20:53:22 -0000 Subject: Free will (WAS: re:flyingmotorcycle/eyes/HouseElves/Socks/L...et cetera) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78544 About Free Will: Del Doriane wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78109 : >snip< I liked it so much when the principle of free agency was thus pointed out in CoS. And I hated it so much when the Prophecy came along in OoP, and destroyed everything. According to this Prophecy, Harry is the one who will destroy Voldemort, whether he likes it or not, whether he wants it or not, whether he decides to or not. Where is Harry's free agency in all of this? >> >snip< I'm not sure who said what, but there is a question about how there can be a prophecy about Harry's future as well as importance in choices. This all reminds me of the Calvinist doctrine of Predestination, which is basically (I think) that God knows who's gong to heaven because he's omnipotent, so our future is planned, but our actions and beliefs are what lead us to our destiny, and we are free to choose which path to take. Having grown up in a Presbyterian church, I have grappled with this all my life. Basically, I think the prophecy predicts the future that will happen because of Harry's choices. He has the ability to choose what he wants, but the prophecy already *knows* what he will choose. His choices will lead to that path. Does that make sense? Oh, probably not. I hope I didn't offend anyone with my religious allusion. I am by no means a religious scholar. That's my own personal view. Elli From dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca Sat Aug 23 21:06:15 2003 From: dee_dolly7 at yahoo.ca (Lee) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:06:15 -0000 Subject: Gay characters (Was "Harry's Sexual preference") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78545 *snip* > > JKR, for all that she has written brilliantly adult fiction, is > > billed as a children's author. I imagine this means that her > > publishers will set limits on what she can and cannot write about, > > similar to a rating on a film. She cannot write anything above at > > 12 certificate. She is also incredibly popular and so has to write > > a large commercial fan base. > BOOK FIVE SPOILERS. * * * * * * * * * I'm here to argue, that in Order of the Pheonix, Rowling has already touched upon the subject of gay love/innuendos in a style that reflects how a 15 year old WOULD be faced with the subject. In chapter one, Dudley Demented, Dudley confronts Harry and accuses him as having a boyfriend, (Cedric, who Harry has been dreaming about no thanks to Voldemort) Harry is angry that Dudley would try to abuse Cedric's memory and death into such mundane terms as being a boyfriend. Harry's feelings obviously go deeper. From the moment we meet Cedric, we learn from Harry's perspective that the boy is good looking, a much better, "Champion" figure than Harry could ever be. Harry seems to be harbouring feelings of resentment, begrudging friendship, and after his death, a pang of regret, possibly love, and is very VERY quick to defend Cedric, who has died with Harry as the sole (light) witness. Its something very personal to him. So take it this way. We now have Harry, accused of being Cedrics boyfriend, and having Cedric's death flung into his face, Harry defends Cedric. What does that add up to? Not much to the average reader, but, I believe Rowling has broached the subject of gays subtly here and in a way which reflects our times. It just is, and doesn't need to be pointed out, really. Lee From fc26det at aol.com Sat Aug 23 21:10:47 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:10:47 -0000 Subject: Snape the Iconoclast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78546 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > > Snip great stuff about McGonagal's reaction to Harry and George > attacking Malfoy two against one, versus the obvious non-reaction to > James and Sirius' attack on Snape. I completely agree, and I'd like to > add that we see how un-Gryffindor it is to gang up on someone later in > the book, when the four Aurors attack McGonagal at once, and Hagrid > is enraged and calls them cowards. > > > The 2nd slap comes from Snape himself during the Occulmency lesson. > > In what appears to be a hypocritical tirade about sulking and holding > > grudges, on closer reading becomes a WARNING to Harry. > > > > > > > > > A warning indeed. Severus has just given Harry a list of the > > weaknesses V. "looks for". One of them was his. He sees Harry sliding > > down that very same slippery slope. > > It's interesting that you should mention the slippery slope, Mel, because > I've been wondering about another Occlumency lesson. > > Chapter 26, Seen and Unforseen, p. 521 UK Hardcover. Snape has just > seen Harry's dream of Rookwood, and has concluded that Harry hasn't > been practicing his Occlumency: > > ------------ > > '"Perhaps," said Snape, his dark, cold eyes narrowing slightly, "perhaps > you actually enjoy having those visions and dreams, Potter. Maybe they > make you feel special - important?" > > "No, they don't," said Harry, his jaw set and his fingers clenched tightly > around the handle of his wand. > > "That is just as well, Potter," said Snape coldly, "because you are neither > special nor important, and it is not up to you to find out what the Dark > Lord is saying to his Death Eaters."' > > ------------ > > With his first observation, Snape hits the nail on the head. Harry may not > exactly enjoy his dreams, but he does want to continue having them. > > Abigail > > Who has been corrected about the origin of the theory named George - > apparently it was Marina who named it, not Elkins. My apologies to > both of them. Sorry for the huge snip Abigail. Your post was great but....sorry....when I read it it hit me smack on the head. And I thought you had the same idea I had at first. I think the reason Snape joined Voldemort was explained in his lecture to Harry about feeling important. What if Voldemort did the same thing to Snape? What if he was able to get into Snapes head and lure him as he did Harry. It would make Snape feel important that someone so powerful was using HIM. I think that is why he was at least trying to help Harry learn Occlumency. I think Snape was used by Voldemort and then to his chagrin, found out that he meant nothing to Voldemort. He was just a pawn. Did any of this make any sense? Susan From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 23 21:29:54 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:29:54 -0000 Subject: Snape the Iconoclast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78547 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: Abigail: > I've been thinking for several months about Snape's past, and OOP > has only served to cement my belief that Snape, though his > wizarding credentials are no doubt impeccable, does not come > from money. In fact, I am absolutely certain that Snape's family > was poor. > I am also convinced that Snape was poor. However, I think Severus found himself on the bottom rung of the wizarding world for quite another reason. > In order to explain how this relates to Snape's decision to join > Voldemort, I'd like to first look at Voldemort himself, and at the > changes that he sought to bring to wizarding society. And in > order to do that, I'd like to first take a look at wizarding > society itself. Agreed. Hogwarts accepted the poverty stricken half blood Tom Riddle from the Council Orphanage. That's strong evidence that the basis for acceptance is talent, and has been since Salazar Slytherin walked out. > However, I do find quite acceptable the idea that the > wizarding world is class-conscious as well as blood-conscious. > Time and time again we see that respectability and power in the > wizarding world follow the trail of money even more inexorably > then they follow the trail of pure wizarding blood. Ah, but are the Snapes of pure wizarding blood? Snape's blood must be pureish, or alternatively he must be have sufficient wizarding credentials that the Malfoy's of this world will associate with him. But... Molly Weasly (the pure but poor) is related to the Blacks by marriage. Arthur Weasley (pure blood, but from a notoriously poor family) is related to the Blacks. The Snapes are never mentioned as appearing on the Black tapestry. Interesting. Of course, Sirius could have left them out because he hates Snape so much - but then, he mentions quite a few relatives he despises. Maybe the Snapes weren't pure-blooded enough for the Blacks to marry? If the senior trio (Dumbledore, McGonagall, Snape) mirror the junior trio, then they are composed of a pure-blood, a mixed blood and a muggle born. Dumbledore's names, authority, and the respect accorded to him by people like Fudge (who value blood highly) all suggest that he is from an old pureblood family. Muggle-born - Snape is very unlikely to be. There's no mention of muggle style clothing in any of the memories Harry takes from Snape. Snape was brought up in the wizarding world. His first name is distinctly odd by muggle standards (unless you're an Ancient Roman). But there is one of the Senior Trio who could be muggle born. When Harry sees Minerva McGonagall coming to Grimmauld place, he thinks how strange it is to see her in muggle clothing. The implication we are given is that Professor McGonagall is wearing muggle clothing as disguise. But perhaps not. 'Minerva'. An obvious wizardly name, no? No. Go to Google or any search engine. Pick a typically Scottish name (McDonald, McDougall, Morrison...). Place 'Minerva' in front of it. I can guarantee you'll get hits from the ones above. I've tried them. Minerva was actually not an uncommon name for Scottish girls in the late 19th and early 20th century. Most commonly it was the middle name, but it appears as the first name often enough. Minerva McGonagall is a Scottish muggle name. Minerva McGonagall wears muggle clothes in the summer holidays because she is muggle born, and that's what she's always worn in school holidays. So, in this 'reflection' theory, we have the pure blooded Dumbledore (Ron), the muggle-born Minerva (Hermione). Which leaves Snape and Harry as mixed blood. Note that neither are true half and half. Harry is born of two wizarding parents; *not* a muggle partnership with a wizard or witch. But one of his parents was not a pure-blood; instead, Lily was muggle born. More below. > Voldemort's dream of a return to ancient wizarding values is > about as true to the form of wizarding society as Hitler's claim > that the Third Reich was a return to the Golden Age of Germany. > In truth, what Voldemort was trying to do was to overturn society, > tear it down, and erect in its place an entirely new social order, > one with himself and his followers at the top. Hatred of muggles > and muggle-borns is as incidental to this plan as Hitler's hatred > of the Jews and other "inferior" races. > > WIthin this atmosphere, being the progeny of an old, wealthy > wizarding family might be more of a hindrance then an asset. >Voldemort was proposing anarchy. That he meant to make them all > his servants, that made these old families reluctant to support > him openly, and that makes me believe that Voldemort's greatest > supporters did not necessarily come from those families. > > > In short, while being a pure-blood wizard is a requirement to join > Voldemort's ranks, being a member of a wealthy family might very > well count against you. Voldemort is looking for iconoclasts. Hitlers minions were frequently not pure blooded (though there were always sneers about the ones who weren't). I forget the exact level before you became `pure enough' ? something like a doubtful great grandparent - but this is possible for the DE's and for Slytherin house. It is currently believed that Tom Riddle was in Slytherin. That means either *pure* blood isn't required nowadays; or Tom Riddle wasn't in Slytherin after all, but in some other house (Ravenclaw, anyone?). If Slytherin house does accept the `pure enough' then Riddle becomes eligible ? and we have no evidence at all that the Snape's are a pure-blood family. > According to this theory, > Snape became disgusted with Dumbledore, seeing his claims of > fairness and impartiality as hypocrisy, and rejected Dumbledore's > ethics. > > I'd like to fold this theory into a new theory, which I'd like to > call Iconoclast!Snape. I think Snape came from a poor wizarding > family, and that his experience in the wizarding world taught him > to despise the social order as her perceived it. Dumbledore, to > this Snape, would have been a saviour - his philosophy seems to be > one of judging people by their merits. There is the interesting point that in GoF Dumbledore talks about Snape `rejoining our side' (The Pensieve chapter). This agrees with your argument, Abigail. At one point the boy Snape shared Dumbledore's views quite closely. Enough for Dumbledore to consider him `on our side'. > Then the Prank happens, and > Snape sees what he perceives to be Dumbledore aligning himself > with the wealthy, entitled James and Sirius. Is it any wonder > that Snape then turns to the next anarchist on his list? James and Sirius are not only wealthy and entitled, they are fully paid up members of old pure-blood families. Quite possibly, so is Lupin, since his parents (plural) tried to get him into Hogwarts. So Snape could easily have seen it as a case of (pure-blood) Dumbledore sides with (pure-blood) Potter, Black and Lupin. Even given a clear case of attempted murder, entrapment, and a dangerous werewolf, the pure-bloods side with each other. Whatever views they spout. Tom Riddle, on the other hand, is *not* pure blood. Oh, he doesn't tell people like Bellatrix that. But he can see people's memories ? he would know that this was Snape's weakness. The pure-bloods stick together. But you don't have to fear that from Lord Voldemort, Severus, because I too am not pure blooded. I truly understand that you can despise your filthy muggle ancestors. > In support of the claim that Snape come from a poor family, I'd > like to reexamine the parallel that I drew between him and Harry a > few days ago. It occurred to me, thanks to Laura's comments on > that post, that Snape and Harry can be described as opposites as > well as equals, and then I realized that this is because there are > in fact two Harrys. > > Muggle Harry is the one without any friends. He is bullied by his > cousin and is too weak to fight back. His family hates him, and > his home life is miserable. He is a virtual nobody. > > And Muggle Harry is poor. And a half blood. Don't forget that. Muggle Harry is despised simply because he's one of them. A wizard. His blood is impure. The fact that the Dursley's see it from the opposite direction to wizards doesn't change the fact that they despise Harry because of his *blood*. > I think Snape's life was the same (in fact, I'm waiting to find > out that the shouting man we see in Snape's memory is not his > father but his uncle). I think the shouting man may well have been his father, simply because it is much, much more difficult to dissociate yourself from parents, even when they treat you badly. People often ask how Harry could turn out so well, and forget that most of his abuse is coming from a man he isn't related to. Petunia and Vernon are not his parents. He can, and always could, tell himself firmly that his *real* parents wouldn't have treated him this way. He may even dimly remember that they *didn't* treat him that way. When Vernon screams about people of `your sort', Harry has in his subconscious mind the idea that this man is actually nothing to do with him. It is sheer accident that he has any connection with Vernon. It's interesting that Harry bitterly resents having to call Vernon's sister `Aunt' and has to be forced to do so. Again, she isn't a blood relation. But if the shouting man was Snape's father, and did despise `mudbloods', then Snape has a problem. There's no dissociation ? what your parents do, when you are small, is right. But how could Snape be both a racist-in-his-childhood and a mixed blood himself? One possibility is that the mixed blood is the family `shame'. In a racist society, the amount of `impure' blood can be very important. JKR is working from British history, rather than U.S. history. US racism seems to follow a `one-drop' system, where any non-white blood makes you black. Racism in British India had a very firm gradation of status, where the `half-caste' was higher in status than the `native', the `Anglo- Indian' higher in status than the `half-caste', and the person with one great grandparent (`a touch of the tar brush') could get quite a way up the societal ladder. Not to the top, of course. One has standards, after all. [Ugh! It makes me shudder just to write this. But that was the way it was.] Anyway, the point I am making is that it was *notorious* that people of mixed blood who'd cast their lot with the ruling British were often *more* racist than the the whites who, after all, didn't have to worry about losing their status. The people of mixed blood were often brought up in the British Indian culture. They were stuck as second class citizens in the world they were brought up in, but couldn't leave it for the `non-white' India because they didn't really know that world, or understand how to make a living in it. So, very often, they reacted by dissociating themselves quite violently from the non-white world, making it totally and absolutely clear that they identified with the white world only. Often they would be ashamed of the offending non-white relative who had ruined their `purity'. Tom Riddle is a good example of that kind of attitude. And it's half-and-half Seamus who spends much of OOP opposed to Harry, following the MoM line. So that would be one possibility. The Snapes are `not quite quite', and have responded by becoming racists. They despise their own background. There is a second possibility, and that is that Severus Snape's father was completely pure-blooded. But then he had a dalliance with a witch who was not a pure blood (half-blood, maybe?). She was quite suitable for that kind of thing, but then he got her pregnant . Well, we are talking about the 1950's or very early sixties. Even in the muggle world, shotgun marriages still took place. And the Wizarding World seems more old-fashioned than the muggle world ? `marry the girl, or find a new job' could well have been the response. And then little Severus would have been truly a screwed up kid. Like Harry, despised because of his blood (only it's his father doing the despising). Like Harry, his parents suffered because he was born. Unlike Harry, he got to watch his parents arguing, and cry. Because he knew this would never have happened if he didn't exist? You can get very angry in that sort of situation. Angry enough to want to change the world that did this to you. > The only difference is that when Snape came to > Hogwarts, his life didn't magically change - he was still poor, > weak and friendless. I think it is a much closer reflection. Snape was poor, and despised, and had absolutely no place in the world he was born into except the one right at the bottom. He had neither money nor pedigree. Harry is the same. In the muggle world, he has neither money, nor pedigree ? in fact, he's despised by his relatives for his blood. Snape is that reflection in the wizarding world. He is Harry as he could have been with no escape route ? bitter, angry and emotionally damaged. > No wonder he wanted to tear the world down. Agreed. Pip!Squeak From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 23 21:32:19 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:32:19 -0000 Subject: Self-Sacrifice/Voldie'sGoal-Bellatrix-Lucius-Snape/Flowers/Ship/ShadesOfGray Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78548 samnanya wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78475 : << I have read the arguments here for love, hope, etc. but the one power that I believe is being referred to is self-sacrifice. His mom gave up her life for Harry, and Harry has time and again been willing to sacrifice himself if it means saving others. >> Yes, but there can be self-sacrifice for Evil. Barty Jr did it, altho' perhaps not on purpose, and Bellatrix seems willing to do so. Abihgail wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78512 : << Let's examine Voldemort's stated purposes - they are surprisingly vague. >> I believe that Voldemort's biggest goal (his heart's desire) was to be feared by all wizards ("I fashioned myself a new name, a name I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak, when I had become the greatest sorcerer in the world!"). That is a *remarkably* non-constructive goal, outright destructive. For its gratification, he could go on destroying, killing, wreaking horrors, as long as there was one wizard left alive. If that last wizard died, if all humanity was wiped out, all life on Earth or the physical planet itself destroyed, then he would realise that he had gone too far. I feel that one or two of Voldemort's loyal followers loved him as a means to their own (can I say nihilist?) goal of destroying all life on Earth or the planet himself. This contradicts the listie who posted (before OoP) that in the long run, Voldemort's victory wouldn't matter, because people go on farming and cooking and trading and eating regardless what government is in power. << I think it was the realization that Voldemort was proposing anarchy. That he meant to make them all his servants, that made these old families reluctant to support him openly, >> See, you agree with me! << Lucius Malfoy is, I suspect, an anomaly. He desires power, and clearly doesn't believe that the world as it is today will provide him with enough of it. >> To me, Lucius desires power, and feels that there is no such thing as ENOUGH power. To me, Lucius believes that he is using Voldemort to get power for himself. I believe that Lucius signed on with Voldemort not because he viewed Voldemort as a strong leader to follow to that leader's victory, but because he viewed Voldemort as a strong horse that he could ride to his own victory. I often wonder if Voldemort knows this and intends to turn on Lucius *just* before Lucius makes his move against the victorious Voldemort. << Bellatrix Lestrange is a sadist - Voldemort offers her an oppor- tunity to indulge her desires, whereas her own society might expect her to be a woman of leisure, prettying up her husband's arm. >> Yes, but you make it sound as if she thought it out and made a rational decision. That doesn't correlate with the passionate devotion she showed in the First Pensieve Scene. I believe she made an *emotional* decision: she "fell into" hero-worship of Voldemort. Certainly the reasons for the hero-worship include their shared trait of sadism: she maybe read of his horrors in the newspaper and felt vicarious gratification, leading her to muse: "What a man!" I think she was sublimatedly-erotically aroused by his display of POWER, magical power displayed by acheiving immortality and social power displayed by sending his followers to kill people. Melpomene wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78518 : << The question isn't 'why did Snape *join* the Death Eaters?' The question is 'why didn't he *invent* them?' >> If we are to take the Second Pensieve Scene at face value, young Snape didn't have the charisma to attract followers, nor even playmates whom he could talk into a conspiracy. Katrina wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78530 of flower names: In the 19th century 'language of flowers', << Petunia represents "Not proud." >> I think JKR named Petunia because it sounds like 'petulant', not to mean 'not proud'. << Lavender: "Distrust or Mistrust." >> I think JKR named Lavender Brown because it is two colors, not to mean 'distrust'. << Myrtle represents "Love in Absence." >> Myrtle is a tree of Venus, therefore representing sexual love (the song "To Anacreon In Heaven" which gave its tune to "The Star Spangled Banner", ends the first verse with "and learn to entwine / the myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine"), but my recollection is that 19th century symbolism used it for grief over lost love. Hence, "Moaning" Myrtle can be not only a pun on "Weeping Willow", but a reference to her beginning-sexuality interrupted by death, leaving her only to ogle boys in the prefects' bathroom. Eligro2000 wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78531 : << Dumbledore and McGonagall. Evidence: (snip) well, it must get lonely at Hogwarts over the summer. >> I consider Dumbledore and Pomfrey to be *possible*. Evidence: "I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey complimented my new earmuffs." However, I believe that Dumbledore and McGonagall is IMPOSSIBLE because I FEEL *certain* that McGonagall and Hooch have been a monogamous couple for a very long time. Some people ship Dumbledore and Snape. Kirstini wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78532 : << HUMBLE, as well you know, stands for How Umbridge Modernises Badness/Light Enquiries - how the introduction of Dolores Umbridge, undoubtedly evil, and yet not siding with Voldemort, opens up the text to new interpretations of "good" and "evil", and constitutes a move away from the child's black/white understanding of these concepts as fixed binary opposites >> But that started in GoF with Rita Skeeter, undoubtedly an evil-doer, therefore either evil, or at least amoral when it comes to her career, but there is no sign that she's a DE, and I believe she isn't. In some way, it started in CoS with Lockhart undoubtably an evil person, but not in alliance with Voldemort or Tom Riddle's memory. Your part three Portrait of Talisman pointed out that the shades of gray start at the beginning, but make a different point than mine about Rita Skeeter and don't mention Lockhart. From EnsTren at aol.com Sat Aug 23 22:29:11 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:29:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why do wizards wear glasses anyways? Message-ID: <11c.257fb2b6.2c7944b7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78549 In a message dated 8/23/2003 2:28:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jones.r.h.j at worldnet.att.net writes: > I have been reading the posts about Myrtle's glasses and earlier > ones about Harry's glasses and thought of something: why do witches > and wizards have to wear glasses at all? If they can correct the > length of Hermione's teeth and regrow Harry's bones with potions, > why can't they correct vision with potions or charms? > > Boris the Bewildered (who obviously wears glasses or he wouldn't > have noticed this) I've been giving this some thought. And maybe the wizarding world CAN correct your vision. Even if it's a spell that goes over the eye like a contact lens However, perhaps the people who wear glasses have stigmatized eyes. That is their cornia is shaped like "0" rather than "O"--that is a football shaped rather than round. Until a few years ago (less than three) people with stigmatized eyes couldn't get contacts because of this. Now you can but it's VERY expensive. Having stigmatized eyes isn't uncommon either. So maybe the wizarding world can't fix that yet. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 23 22:46:06 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 22:46:06 -0000 Subject: Self-Sacrifice/Voldie'sGoal-Bellatrix-Lucius-Snape/ShadesOfGray In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78550 Catlady (always one of my favourite posters. Did I mention that?) wrote: >>Yes, but there can be self-sacrifice for Evil. Barty Jr did it, altho' perhaps not on purpose, and Bellatrix seems willing to do so. Here Catlady quotes Abigail: << Bellatrix Lestrange is a sadist - Voldemort offers her an oppor- tunity to indulge her desires, whereas her own society might expect her to be a woman of leisure, prettying up her husband's arm. >> Yes, but you make it sound as if she thought it out and made a rational decision. That doesn't correlate with the passionate devotion she showed in the First Pensieve Scene. I believe she made an *emotional* decision: she "fell into" hero-worship of Voldemort. Certainly the reasons for the hero-worship include their shared trait of sadism: she maybe read of his horrors in the newspaper and felt vicarious gratification, leading her to muse: "What a man!" I think she was sublimatedly-erotically aroused by his display of POWER, magical power displayed by acheiving immortality and social power displayed by sending his followers to kill people.<< Something that occured to me when I read this was a potential real- life model for Bellatrix. I've previously expressed a vague interest in a Voldemort/Bellatrix SHIP, although not a huge shipper. Recently, I've been reading various biographies of the Mitford sisters. They were an upper-class family in mid-20th Century England. There were six of them, five of whom managed to hold the headlines for a good twenty years as they mixed themselves up in various sorts of world events. JKR has often said that Jessica Mitford, who became a communist and human rights activist, much to the disgust of her family, was her heroine. There's a lot of her in Hermione, and JKR even named her daughter after her. Therefore I think it's fair to assume that she's familiar with the first volume of Jessica's autobiography, Hons and Rebels (I think it's called Daughters and Rebels in the US, funnily enough), which deals with WW2 and the period leading up to it. The sister nearest to Jessica in age, Unity Valkyrie, fell in love with Hitler. She moved to Germany and stalked him until she could arrange a meeting, and then became very close to him. She was known as his mistress in the newspapers, although no-one from her family has ever confirmed that they had anything other than a political relationship. She worked closely with the British Union of Facists when at home, and eventually shot herself when Britain went to war with Germany, living out the war years as a mental patient until her death in 1948. The subliminated erotic relationship you described above touched a chord with me, and I was wandering around for a while trying to work out why I found the description so familiar. Then something else occurred to me. The sister just older than Unity was Diana. Diana was a famous blonde beauty (and having seen pictures of her, I can quite readily conclude that she would have been a lot more beautiful if she didn't look like there was a funny smell under her nose), who eventually married Oswald Mosley, leader of the British Union of Facists. Diana's loyalty was always to her husband, but she went over to Germany with Unity several times, and got to know Hitler quite well. She was just as instrumental as her husband in promoting facism in Britain, and was imprisoned at the bequest of her own sister (Nancy, the fmaous novelist)for the duration of the war. If anyone's interested in taking this further, Diana died last week, so the newpaper obituary pages are rather full of her. The Independant published a final interview with her last week, which is available in their Features archive. I'm not trying to say that JKR intends Bellatrix and Narcissa to be versions of Unity and Diana, nor am I suggesting that either sister's destiny is quite so easily analogised. However, I think that there is certainly potential for additions to the Lines of Influence installation in the Canon Museum... Whilst still on the subject of the Sisters Black, something I noticed on a recent re-read is that Andromeda is still alive. Here's Tonks,on p52 (Bloomsbury): "'...My mum's got this knack of getting stuff to fold in neatly...'" Present tense. I don't know why I'd assumed Andromeda was no longer with us. Had anyone else? Jessica Mitford made a marriage that her family didn't approve of too, you know... Catlady had more to say, too, taking me to task about my forgetfulness in my recent TBay post: >> But that started in GoF with Rita Skeeter, undoubtedly an evil- doer, therefore either evil, or at least amoral when it comes to her career, but there is no sign that she's a DE, and I believe she isn't. In some way, it started in CoS with Lockhart undoubtably an evil person, but not in alliance with Voldemort or Tom Riddle's memory.<< I did include Rita Skeeter, but I put her in the "amoral" rather than"evil" category. And Lockhart...oops. I have a feeling that I may have unconsciously passed him over because he didn't fit in with the original formulation of my theory. I'd say he was amoral rather than evil too. Yes, the memory wipe is extremely unpleasant, but I'm not entirely sure that Harry ever gets any real sense of how evil it is, as Gilderoy is so utterly comic throughout that the intensity is blunted. I don't have any sense of him as evil myself, and a quick trawl through the Filks reveals that many other people feel similarly to me. I may write another post fairly soon interpreting the role of DADA teacher through my new theory, but I'm kinda theoried out at the moment. But my wrist is feeling well and truly slapped, Ma'am... Kirstini From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 23:03:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:03:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power is Self-sacrifice... or Selflessness? In-Reply-To: <002001c36930$53f026a0$89cafea9@yale> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78551 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yale sam wahl" wrote: > I have read the arguments here for love, hope, etc. but the one power > that I believe is being referred to is self-sacrifice. > > ...edited... > > samnanya bboy_mn: I'm going to agree with you and disagree with you. I think you might be on the right track but didn't quite choose the right word. I think the key characteristic of Harry as well as Ron and Hermione is not self-sacrifice, but selflessness which includes but goes beyond self-sacrifice. It is the sense that there are things greater and more important than yourself. Harry constantly puts the needs of other over his own safety. He constantly acts for the greater good in ways the put him at risk. I know this is a subtle distinction, but I think it is important. Selflessness includes self-sacrifice but also includes principles and actions that go much deeper into the emotions, motivation, and spirit. Just a thought. bboy_mn From music4masses at earthlink.net Sat Aug 23 18:51:17 2003 From: music4masses at earthlink.net (Erin) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:51:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) Message-ID: <7831254.1061675054358.JavaMail.nobody@rowlf.psp.pas.earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78552 Ev vy >>Frankly, I disagree with the opinion that anything that Lupin did was done out of cowardice. Erin: I'm certainly not going to shout at you, but I am going to disagree. Simply because JKR herself has said that Lupin's greatest failing is not standing up to his friends because of his neediness, not just loyalty. He lets them get away with too much. That, in effect, makes him a coward. I wouldn't call myself a coward, as he does, willingly if I could offer up another excuse. It's not natural. Also, the boggart scene really isn't taunting. If anyone's taunting Snape in that scene, it's Neville, not Lupin. It's Neville's fear after all. Lupin helps him cope with it. Where Lupin more likely went wrong was when he covered up for Harry during the Maraurders' Map scene, but he also scolded Harry afterwards. Based on his acknowledgement to Harry of his past mistakes, it seems clear he's repentant. And based on his ability to stand up to Sirius et al. in Book V, he wouldn't let it happen again. I agree that he's grown up. He's too sensitive to just be a pure pragmatist, anyway. It's not how Rowling has drawn his character and is inconsistent with her own comments regarding his weakness. Also, he didn't just accept Sirius's story. He only started to believe the possibility when he saw Pettigrew on the map. He was quite hard on Sirius throughout PoA. Having said that, Lupin is still too young to be Headmaster I think. I think he has important obligtions to the Order to fulfill, and perhaps to Harry as well, that he couldn't commit to as Headmaster. Maybe in the end?? erin -------Original Message------- From: Ev vy Sent: 08/22/03 01:45 PM To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 23 23:35:52 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:35:52 -0000 Subject: (snip) /ShadesOfGray In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78553 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > Catlady (always one of my favourite posters. Did I mention that?) *purrs* (snips long and wonderful musings on the Sisters Black and Mitford) > > I don't know why I'd assumed Andromeda was no longer with us. Had > anyone else? I've read posts on this list that so assume, but I've never understood where they got that idea. > Lockhart...oops. I have a feeling that I may have unconsciously > passed him over because he didn't fit in with the original > formulation of my theory. I'd say he was amoral rather than evil > too. Yes, the memory wipe is extremely unpleasant, but I'm not > entirely sure that Harry ever gets any real sense of how evil it > is, as Gilderoy is so utterly comic throughout that the intensity > is blunted. Lockhart may have been amoral rather than evil in his normal career of selfishly Obliviating people who otherwise could have gone on rescuing wizarding folk from monsters, but he was clearly EVIL when he meant to Obliviate Harry and Ron into insanity just in order to leave poor Ginny to die. Merely amoral would have been to just run away, to save his own skin, but not prevent others from trying to save her. > But my wrist is feeling well and truly slapped, Ma'am... No! Don't say that, I mean, don't *mean* that! From sylviablundell at aol.com Sat Aug 23 23:40:58 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:40:58 -0000 Subject: Bellatrix and Unity Mitford Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78554 What an interesting post from Kirstini about the Mitford sisters. I had already connected Bellatrix's worship of Voldemort with Unity's fanatical devotion to Hitler, but didn't notice Diana's resemblance to Mrs. Malfoy. Surely more than a coincidence. Sylvia (who cant tell you how much she has learned since joining) From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sat Aug 23 23:41:56 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:41:56 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses, Basilisk, Camera, Ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78555 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Dave" wrote: > > ... Why then was Myrtle killed when viewing the basilisk straight > > through her glasses(CS 16)? Basically, Myrtle shouldn't have died, > > she should only have been petrified because of her glasses just as > > the camera and Nick saved the other two. > > > > -SD > > First, let's ask a fundamental question about Basilisks. > > Exactly how does a Basilisk kill you with a look? > SNIP of excellent CoS petrifications synopsis by--- > bboy_mn SO, here I am just reading this post and WHAM!--it slams into me like a bludger. Maybe this is 'duh!' for most people but, it just struck me the implications of the Basilisk being able to kill with a look--with its *eyes*. Of course we've been bombarded with descriptions to people's eyes and hit repeatedly over the head with the likeness between Lily's and Harry's eyes. But we also have the JKR chat quote where someone asks if there is some magic that can done by people only with their eyes of with certain eyes (can't find the chat now, sorry). The Basilisk's ability to kill with looking another person/thing in the eye is certainly an example of this. Also, it foreshadowed a type of magic that is done by looking another in the eye--such as Legilimency. Perhaps, I am thinking, that Voldemort, with all his snake-like characteristics, may have been trying to morph himself into a creature with the power to kill with intent and a deadly look-- no wand or AK needed. If wands, imbued with cores of magical creatures, are 'amplifiers' of sorts that concentrate and focus magic, than I can see where the properties and powers of magical creatures may be harnessable and perhaps able to be assimililated into a wizard's powers. Obviously, if Volde tried to achieve this, he hasn't done it yet. However, I have to wonder about Harry. Why? How? In the CoS, he was poisened with the Basilisk venom. It would have killed him if he not been saved with tears from Fawkes--a Phoenix. Mixing Phoenix tears (from an immortal creature) and Basilisk venom (deadly poisen from a creature that can kill with a look into its eyes), may indeed, be an odd mix to have in one's blood. I can see Harry becoming skilled at Legilimency (it seems it may be easy to master after learning Occlumency, which he will probably soon learn to master) (and we also have seen Harry with several 'intuitive' hunches) and then being able to look into one's eyes (Voldemort's? No, maybe bellatrix--I still say Harry has do V in with some love and understnading--but Bella can get the axe) and his/her soul (if she has one) and see her worth as a person worthy of living, if when Harry can see only evil, and begins to wish/want the person dead, then the intent in his mind and heart flow through his eyes and the person drops dead. My brainstormed theory for the day. Arya From rredordead at aol.com Sun Aug 24 00:26:40 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:26:40 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78556 BubbaQRib said: Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of Slytherin? I ask this question first based on the statement by JKR that one scene had to stay in CoS because it was important long term to the story. I'm thinking of the scene where Hermione says "Harry for all we know you could be the heir of Slytherin". I'm also struck by this because of Hermione's track record on statements like this Second I ask this because Harry is a Parselmouth. He often has been mentioned with snake like terms. Example is Malfoy in front of Fudge and there has been other casual reference to snakes in suttle ways. Third is the sorting hat it wanted to put Harry in Slytherin. But he wasn't because of the choices he made not because of who he is. The sorting hat in OoP talks about uniting the school what better way to truely unite the school then if Harry was the heir of Slytherin. That would bring the house together I'm not saying Harry is the Heir of Slytherin. But like Hermione says for all we know you could be. This note has nothing to do with above post but wouldn't it be funny if the person to learn magic latter in life was the Ultimate Muggle Uncle Vernon. Now me: Some of this was dicussed in the thead "Is Lily Voldemort's Daughter?" You might want to read those. I have also suggested that Harry is both the Heir of Gryiffindor through one parent and the Heir of Slytherin through the other being some how related to LV from his Marvolio side of the family. Mandy From lmbolland at earthlink.net Sun Aug 24 00:47:22 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 00:47:22 -0000 Subject: Harry's eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78557 wrote: <> Retinal damage from the bright green flash of the AK-gone awry? Brilliant point and I'd never thought of it. (OK, I'm sure it's been discussed a zillion times onlist!) Lauri From rredordead at aol.com Sun Aug 24 01:16:10 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:16:10 -0000 Subject: Sisters Black (and Mitford) a clue to their future? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78558 Sylvia said: What an interesting post from Kirstini about the Mitford sisters. I had already connected Bellatrix's worship of Voldemort with Unity's fanatical devotion to Hitler, but didn't notice Diana's resemblance to Mrs. Malfoy. Surely more than a coincidence. Now me: Yes, the similarities between 4 of the Mitford Sisters and the 3 Black sister plus JKR herself are fantastic. For those of you who are unaware: Unity Mitford (as it says above) was fanatically devoted to Hitler; He even told newspapers in Germany that Unity was "a perfect specimen of Aryan womanhood." A wild teenager, Unity tormented the family's governesses and was expelled after a brief stint at school. As a debutante, she horrified the London social scene by taking her pet rat to dances and greeted everyone with the Nazi salute. Unity tried to commit suicide at the outbreak of war. Unity is a basis for Belatrix. Diana Mitford was blond and called 'The Beautiful One.' She married Oswald Mosley, the famous British fascist, in Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels's drawing room in Berlin. Hitler was a guest. They were both strong opponents of non-white immigration into Britain. Clearly a basis for Narcissi in both appearance and her marriage to Lucius Malfoy. Jessica Mitford, the rebel, who unlike her family developed left wing opinions, converted of pacifism and become a socialist. Jessica even considered the possibility of visiting Germany with her sister and murdering Hitler. Jessica is a good basis for Andromeda. Finally Nancy Mitford the famous author and also a socialist like her sister Jessica and it said to be a role model for JKR herself. There are some great website out there on the history of the Mitfird Sisters if anyone is interested. Mandy. From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Aug 24 01:46:21 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:46:21 -0000 Subject: Clear case of attempted murder (was Snape the Iconoclast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78559 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: Massive snippage of Snape stuff > So Snape could easily have seen it as a case of (pure-blood) > Dumbledore sides with (pure-blood) Potter, Black and Lupin. Even > given a clear case of attempted murder, entrapment, and a dangerous > werewolf, the pure-bloods side with each other. Whatever views they > spout. And, the canon showing definitively that the Prank was a clear case of attempted murder is....where??? Marianne From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 01:49:33 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 01:49:33 -0000 Subject: Possible silly question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78560 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Darklady" > wrote: > > Lupin, in discussing his lycanthropy, says that "they didn't > > have a cure BACK THEN." (Emphasis obviously my own. ) Would that > > not imply that there is a cure NOW? If so - why has not Lupin > > been cured? I believe he meant a cure for the SYMPTOMS. The Wolfsbane Potion is only a cure for the werewolf aggression (it renders him docile). The potion is not a cure for the transformation itself, and if all of the optimum conditions are not present, it doesn't work. (It has to be taken without fail for a week before the full moon, and sugar renders it useless.) --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > In OOP Mr. Weasley refers to a person in St. Mungos "Bitten by a > werewolf, poor chap. No cure at all." So even now there is no > cure. I think in the book you were listening to they meant that > when Remus was bitten there was no "treatment" either. Quite right. I think she's getting better about her werewolf lore, but the books still have silly things in them like the kids being taught to 'treat' werewolf bites in DADA (I believe the 'treatment' would be to resign yourself to the fact that you're now a werewolf), and the remark about Hagrid raising werewolf cubs under his bed (which was hopefully a tongue-in-cheek comment, as werewolf 'cubs' would be human children most of the time). As for Draco Malfoy being worried about going into the forest because of werewolves--if the moon isn't full, that shouldn't be a problem, but nothing is said about that. I sincerely doubt that there are any werewolves 'living' in the forest, whereas there MAY be some folks who take refuge in there for their monthly transformations on the theory that humans tend to avoid the forest and there wouldn't be anyone around for the werewolves to hurt (assuming that the lycanthropes in question don't want to wake up the next day with a huge guilt complex and a murder charge). --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From gandharvika at hotmail.com Sun Aug 24 02:15:41 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:15:41 +0000 Subject: (FILK) Not Prudent Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78561 Not Prudent (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Dear Prudence_ by the Beatles) Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html The Midi is a bit different from the original (specifically the "Look around, round" bit is in the wrong place) Dedicated to Lucius-lover Wendy St. James for helping me come up with a name for my new e-mail address. CoS...Scene; Lucius Malfoy is talking to his son inside Borgin & Burkes Lucius: Not prudent - better watch what you say You shouldn't give your thoughts away I've told you this time and again Couldn't have made myself more plain These blatant thoughts of yours will betray Your treatment of Harry Potter Important, you must remember To appear less then fond of him Would seem to be a mortal sin This dissent needs to be hidden better Ignorant people think they know This moment Potter's a hero Most of our kind hold him as dear He made the Dark Lord disappear It's urgent that you keep quiet, Draco (Harry who is hiding inside a large black cabinet, sees Draco coming closer and is afraid that he will be discovered. He says under his breath): Go away, way Go away, way, way Go away Lucius now speaks to Mr. Borgin: The recent raids by the Ministry They haven't touched my family Wizard blood and ancestry Counting for less, but not with me Impudent, Muggle-loving Weasley -Gail B...well, side A of the first album is now finished... _________________________________________________________________ MSN 8: Get 6 months for $9.95/month. http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 02:37:10 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:37:10 -0000 Subject: Snape the Iconoclast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78562 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "abigailnus" wrote: One of my favorite theories > about the events that drove Snape to join the Death Eaters has to do > with the Prank, or rather, with the aftermath to it. This theory > suggests that Snape was so disgusted with the punishment - or lack > thereof - that the Marauders received after nearly getting him killed, > that he lost all respect for Dumbledore. None of the Marauders are > expelled. A dangerous werwolf is allowed to continue studying with > unsuspecting students. Snape himself is cautioned against saying > anything, as though he were at fault. To add insult to injury, the > very next year, James is made Head Boy! According to this theory, > Snape became disgusted with Dumbledore, seeing his claims of > fairness and impartiality as hypocrisy, and rejected Dumbledore's > ethics. > > I'd like to fold this theory into a new theory, which I'd like to call > Iconoclast!Snape. I think Snape came from a poor wizarding family, > and that his experience in the wizarding world taught him to > despise the social order as her perceived it. Dumbledore, to this > Snape, would have been a saviour - his philosophy seems to be one > of judging people by their merits. Then the Prank happens, and > Snape sees what he perceives to be Dumbledore aligning himself > with the wealthy, entitled James and Sirius. Is it any wonder that > Snape then turns to the next anarchist on his list? In support of the claim that Snape come from a poor family, I'd like > to reexamine the parallel that I drew between him and Harry a few > days ago. It occurred to me, thanks to Laura's comments on that > post, that Snape and Harry can be described as opposites as well as > equals, and then I realized that this is because there are in fact two > Harrys. > > Muggle Harry is the one without any friends. He is bullied by his > cousin and is too weak to fight back. His family hates him, and his > home life is miserable. He is a virtual nobody. > > Wizard Harry has powerful and devoted friends. He is more then > capable of taking care of himself, and is in fact a sports hero. He > has a large adoptive family who love him very much, to the point of > fighting over him. He is so famous that every child knows his name. > > The problem is that Harry, consciously or not, sees himself as Muggle > Harry even in the wizarding world. Laura took me to task for > comparing Harry to Snape because Harry isn't really bullied in the > wizarding world, and I pointed out that it is Harry himself who makes > the comparison. Whereas Wizard Harry and Snape couldn't be more > different (and it is this Harry that Snape sees), Muggle Harry seems to > be an exact fit to the teenage Snape that we see in the Pensieve. > > And Muggle Harry is poor. > > Harry makes the point of noticing, even, that he can't bring any of > his wizard money home, because the Dursleys would take it away > from him. When he's in the Muggle world, Harry has nothing - > everything he owns came from Dudley first, and was frequently > broken. He often has nothing to eat. Before PS, he sleeps in > a cupboard under the stairs. It is only in the wizarding world that > Harry has possessions and the ability to purchase more of them. > > I think Snape's life was the same (in fact, I'm waiting to find out > that the shouting man we see in Snape's memory is not his father > but his uncle). The only difference is that when Snape came to > Hogwarts, his life didn't magically change - he was still poor, > weak and friendless. > > No wonder he wanted to tear the world down. > > Abigail Laura: I hope I wasn't overly harsh in my remarks-if I was, please accept my apologies! I think this theory you're proposing is right on. Historically, as a rule, people who are already winners in the societal game don't want to change the rules. So revolutionaries are rarely aristocrats. The Malfoys have absolutely no reason to foment an anti-Muggle revolution. They're already getting their way via Fudge, and all it takes is some sycophancy and a bit of gold. Revolutions are so much work, after all. But middle-class malcontents, constantly aware of their social limitations, are quite the opposite. (I'm thinking here of the French revolutionaries, Lenin and Marx for starters.) And the line between revolution and anarchy can be pretty shaky at times. Even revolutionaries with a geuinely constructive sociopolitical ideology can find circumstances veering out of their control (again, look at the French Revolution and the Reign of Terror). Then there are people who may call themselves revolutionaries, but they're nothing but very large scale haters. I'd put Hitler here-and LV. The real point of their "revolutions" is to get rid of people they hate. Of course, the problem with this is that it eventually eats itself alive-and there's where anarchy comes in. So you get rid of all the Muggle- borns. You're still full of hatred, so next you look at people who are half-Muggle, or married to a Muggle, or... Anyhow, it makes sense for Snape to be a middle-to-lower class malcontent who is teetering on the edge when he comes to Hogwarts. I agree with your distinction between Muggle Harry and Wisarding Harry, and I think you can extend that to Snape. (Maybe you could call them Dark Arts!Snape and Iconoclast!Snape.) We know that what motivates a person isn't how they appear to others but the way they feel about themselves. Harry may not in fact be bullied at Hogwarts by anyone except Draco and friends, but he *feels* that he is. And Snape may not in fact have been powerless against James but he *felt* that he was (according to Pensieve II-I belong to the Pensieve-scenes- are- subjective school). So yeah, Severus was ripe for the picking by the time the Prank was over. It wasn't what really happened that tipped the balance but the way SS felt about what happened that sent him over. If that's the case, his coming back is exceptionally admirable-and I'm not a big Snape fan. But overcoming the sorts of feelings he carried around for so many years in order to work for the good guys is pretty impressive. Lucky for him he has Harry to help him release the emotional pressure, isn't it? From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 24 02:44:28 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 02:44:28 -0000 Subject: Possible silly question about Werewolves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78563 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Barb "psychic_serpent" wrote: > Quite right. I think she's getting better about her werewolf lore, > but the books still have silly things in them like the kids being > taught to 'treat' werewolf bites in DADA (I believe the 'treatment' > would be to resign yourself to the fact that you're now a werewolf) Presumably werewolf bites require treatment to keep the victim from *dying* -- that would be why the poor chap is in instead of worrying at home. I suppose there is some toxin or curse in werewolf bites that does more than transmitting the disease and more than a normal wolf bite. Maybe it keeps the blood from clotting so that the patient is in danger of bleeding to death from the tiniest nip that broke a millimeter of skin (similar to Arthur's snakebite but more extreme) or maybe it starts digesting the flesh like rattlesnake venom ... Anyway, the special treatment is magical and that would be what the kids studied in DADA. > and the remark about Hagrid raising werewolf cubs under his bed > (which was hopefully a tongue-in-cheek comment, as werewolf 'cubs' > would be human children most of the time). As you know, JKR dealt with that: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-livec hat-barnesnoble.html << Q: In Chamber of Secrets, Hagrid is supposed to have raised werewolf cubs under his bed. Are these the same kind of werewolves as Professor Lupin? JKR: No. Riddle was telling lies about Hagrid, just slandering him.>> That Riddle could tell such a lie, one that would be easily caught by anyone who had studied the werewolf chapter in FABULOUS BEASTS, shows how ignorant of werewolves are the general run of wizarding folk. Such as the ignorance shown by Draco in your next quote. > As for Draco Malfoy being worried about going into the forest > because of werewolves--if the moon isn't full, that shouldn't be a > problem, but nothing is said about that. I sincerely doubt that > there are any werewolves 'living' in the forest, whereas there MAY > be some folks who take refuge in there for their monthly Maybe the stories of werewolves in the Forbidden Forest all go back to the same source as the stories of rowdy ghosts in the Shrieking Shack ... a decade and a half earlier, people had heard Moony howling (and surely Padfoot) barking, and they told stories of it ever since. From mss4a at cstone.net Sun Aug 24 03:00:29 2003 From: mss4a at cstone.net (Melanie ) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:00:29 -0000 Subject: Free will/Calvinism in a nutshell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78564 Del Doriane wrote: > I liked it so much when the principle of free agency > was thus pointed out in CoS. And I hated it so much when > the Prophecy came along in OoP, and destroyed everything. I thought I would chime in here (even though I'm a lay person, not a theologian. :) First, it's important to understand the difference between foreknowledge and predestination. Arminian Christians (free-will proponents) believe that, while God knows what will happen to us, He does not *make* it happen. Likewise, one could look at the Prophecy in OotP as an instance of magical foreknowledge that does not force Harry to take any course of action, but simply predicts future events. In this case, Harry is still a free agent. For example, I can predict that my husband, when offered a Slim Jim, will choose to eat it. My "foreknowledge" :) does not mean he did not make a free choice. So, in my view, there is still room for free will in stories dealing with time travel and predictions of the future. And Catlady wrote: > Long ago, one wise and clever listie (whose name I have > unfortunately forgotten) pointed out that Dumbledore, in that famous > CoS scene, did *not* say that it is our choices that *make* us what > we are. He said: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly > are, far more than our abilities." SHOW what we truly are. SHOW what > we were and are *destined* to be, because we never had a choice > about which choice we would choose: it was fixed from the beginning. Wow, that was a great catch by that clever unnamed listie. :) Sounds like Dumbledore's something of a Calvinist (at least as far as believing in predestination goes). Consequently, I'd like to shift gears and try to explain predestination in a way that hopefully makes some sense and will allow us to make peace with the concept. Proper Calvinism does not claim that humans do not make choices. It posits that humans do not *freely* make choices. There is a difference. It was (convincingly) explained to me this way: when I get up in the morning and decide what to wear, I do not choose from an infinite number of choices. The number of choices is finite. However, I still make a choice willingly -- the fact that my number of choices was limited does not mean that I am not willingly making a choice and therefore responsible for that choice. Now, narrow down the range of choices even further. Let's say that, at any given moment in my life, I have only one real choice -- even though it seems to me like I have several. I make my choices willingly, therefore I am responsible for my choices. Even though I was not actually *free* to choose the things I did *not* end up choosing, I made all my choices willingly. I'm sure someone out there can explain it better, but I hope that made sense. Melanie From meltowne at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 03:01:58 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:01:58 -0000 Subject: Arthurian Legends (was: Heir of Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78565 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whizbang" wrote: > >snip< > > This would not be the first Arthurian referent in Potterworld > The fact that the Potters were living in a place called Godric's > Hollow makes me wonder. Dumbledore reference to Harry's pulling > Gryffindor's sword out of Gryffindor's hat seems relevant. The > conflict between Gryffindor and Slytherin makes me think that if > Slytherin's heir can only be defeated by "the babe with the power", > that one would be the heir of Gryffindor. What about the possibility the Harry represents Galahad? in some of the legends Galahad was the one who saw the whilte hart (harry's patronus?) The hart is supposed to signify the mystical and divine presence of Christ. Galahad was one of only 3 Grail knights - sould that be of significance? Godric Gryffindor's sword reminds me greatly of Excaliber, as well, though that dound have been Arthur's (Dumbledore's?) sword. From yswahl at stis.net Sun Aug 24 03:22:06 2003 From: yswahl at stis.net (samnanya) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:22:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power is Self-sacrifice... or Selflessness? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78566 I have read the arguments here for love, hope, etc. but the one power that I believe is being referred to is self-sacrifice. samnanya bboy_mn: I'm going to agree with you and disagree with you. I think you might be on the right track but didn't quite choose the right word. I think the key characteristic of Harry as well as Ron and Hermione is not self-sacrifice, but selflessness which includes but goes beyond self-sacrifice. It is the sense that there are things greater and more important than yourself. Harry constantly puts the needs of other over his own safety. He constantly acts for the greater good in ways the put him at risk. I know this is a subtle distinction, but I think it is important. Selflessness includes self-sacrifice but also includes principles and actions that go much deeper into the emotions, motivation, and spirit. Just a thought. bboy_mn ------------------- samnanya again ..... We all have the right to our opinions of course, but selflessness does not include self-sacrifice, because self-sacrifice is permanent - - no turning back -- lily didnt have a second vote whether what she did for Harry was right or wrong or whatever.... she did it because she believed in the ultimate self-sacrifice - the giving of her life so that another can endure Selflessness is reversible self-sacrifice is not -- and therefore it SS is MUCH more powerful and dangerous to study ..... Think about it this way ..... if you walk into the secret room in the MoM and discover that it contains the key to selflessness, I would think that you would be in a not too scary place where all you can lose is your ego or your posessions, not necessarily a bad thing. In fact you survive and endure .... Now think about the other room .... you walk in and the first thing you might see is are the people dear to you about to die unless you do something about it NOW ...... well then ,,,,how many of us can let go ? or would want to make the sacrifice? thats why it is more powerful and that is why it is so securely guarded..... i dont think you would want to get locked in there by accident. once again my opinion,,,, but then again, which room would YOU rather be in ??? samnanya From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 03:39:34 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:39:34 -0000 Subject: Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78567 Okay, this is going to be tricky, keeping everyone's attributions straight. I'll do my best, but I apologize in advance if I screw up. Ev vy wrote: > Frankly, I disagree with the opinion that anything that Lupin did > was done out of cowardice. I think that what motivated him (and > still does) is his self-preservation and also a very strong sense of pragmatism. Maria there is a definite element of cowardice in Lupin's inability to stand up to his friends in Pensieve Scene II...let's look at this: "Did I ever tell you to lay off Snape?" he said. "Did I ever have the guts to tell you I thought you were out of order?" (Careers Advice, OOP) Marina: > > I suspect that his [Lupin's]current ability to keep the people around him in line comes not so much from increased moral authority as from increased facility for judging how far he can afford to go, and which buttons he needs to push. I think the adult Remus is a rather manipulative man, actually. Maria: > Oh, yes. Definitely. And the best phrase to illustrate Marina's words would be Lupin's "Your parents gave their lives to keep you alive, Harry. A poor way to repay them ? gambling their sacrifice for a bag of magic tricks." (Snape's Grudge, POA) > Elkins: > Even Lupin's compassion could, viewed in a certain light, make him > seem a little suspicious, because it's a compassion born of > sensitivity and insight, of the ability to "read" others, to deduce > other people's personal vulnerabilities and motives. On a certain level, an emotionally astute individual *is* a spy -- he knows your secrets...or at least he makes you feel as if he does -- and I don't think that it did much for the others' sense of security around Lupin. I think that his very sensitivity probably made him seem suspect. [W]hile wisely used that sort of sensitivity can lead to compassion, used with ill-intent it turns to sadism. If you can tell where somebody's vulnerabilities lie, then you may know how to help them, but you also really know how to *hurt* them. And while Lupin rarely uses his sensitivity cruelly, he certainly does know *how* to do it. His rebuke to Harry at the end of Chapter 14...is devestatingly effective. It's also slightly...one might even be tempted to call it "vicious." Lupin really does know how to target the jugular, and there are times when I get the definite sense that he's got a bit of a taste for it as well. He's not a sadist...but he could be, and if he ever did go bad, I think that's exactly how he'd do it. > Now me (Laura) Wow. Remus just can't win here, can he? When he doesn't speak up, he's a coward, or coldly pragmatic, and when he does, he's manipulative and potentially vicious. It's interesting to compare Sirius, Remus and Severus as kids and as adults. Each of them had significant personal prlblems in their pre- Hogwarts lives, difficulties they bring with them to school. They carry their emotional baggage in very different ways. Remus becomes docile and avoids confrontation in order tomaintain his secret and keep his friendships at the same time. Sirius acts cocky and arrogant in order to hide the rejection he has experienced from his parents. Snape adopts a stance of constant defensiveness, treating everyone as a potential enemy and then acting resentful and bitter when they respond in kind. It seems to me that Remus has learned the most from his mistakes in adolescent strategy. He's seen the results of failing to act to prevent harm being done to someone else. He's also learned a lot about human behavior-what motivates people, what's important to them. Adult!Remus puts those lessons together and becomes a force for good. He teaches, both literally and by example, how to handle darkness, whether it takes the form of a creature, a spell or a moral weakness. So when he scolds Harry for sneaking into Hogsmeade, it's from the point of view of someone who knows that seemingly harmless acts can have dreadful consequences. Not only is he trying to correct his past failures, he's trying to help Harry avoid the same ones. He has to speak forcefully so Harry will think about what the consequences of his acts could be. I wouldn't call that manipulation-I'd call that caring. Sure, he knows what to say to get to Harry. That's not because he's cruel, but because he has learned to look inside people (to see others as "thou" rather than "it", in the terminology of Martin Buber). He responds to each person so as to acknowledge their uniqueness-Harry's headstrong impulsiveness, Hermione's earnest scholarliness, Neville's sadness and fear, Sirius's frustration and emotionality. He's always careful to speak to Snape with calm and respect, understanding Snape's bitterness need for control and knowing what part he played in creating them. (His decision not to fight for his job after Snape outs him seems like penance to me.) I never get any feeling at all from Remus that he has a nasty streak, either as a child or as an adult. And goodness knows, with James and Sirius around, he could have picked up all the instruction he needed. If people respond to Remus's empathy with suspicion, maybe that's because we so rarely encounter the real thing in our lives, sad to say. From dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu Sun Aug 24 03:55:19 2003 From: dequardo at waisman.wisc.edu (Arya) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:55:19 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78568 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elizabeth1603" < elizabeth1603 at y...> wrote: > > md (after snipping per my elf's instructions): > > I've been thinking about how Dumbledore uses Hogwarts as a > > safe house of sorts. Trewlaney was hired after the prophecy, and > > Dumbledore absoutely refused to let her leave after she was > > fired by Umbridge. Snape has stayed there sincethe fall of > > Voldemort. > > > > While I'm not conviced it has anything to do with Harry's family, I > > do wonder whether McGonagall did something or have > > something happen that requires her to stay at Hogwarts for her > > protection or safety. > > > > serious_schwartz > > I'm rereading OOP, and I realized that my theory is all bunk because > Sirius > said he used to stay with James's parentS. I suppose I just want to > know > exactly how McGonagall fits into the story. It seems like she should > have > some important role, besides being Harry's Transfiguration teacher > and a > member of the Order. She's a prominent character. She was at the > Dursleys', > waiting on Dumbledore, when he brought Harry there, so she must have > some important connection. > > I like the point you've made. I wonder if Dumbledore was trying to > protect her, > as he did Snape and Trelawney, as well as Hagrid and Firenze. Jeez, > Hogwarts IS a safehouse! > > Elli I think the importance of McG's era, is the fact that she was placed at 'a sprightly 70ish' in a chat by JKR and we know CoS is 50 years after Riddle was at Hogwarts--this makes McG and Riddle comtemporaries and very likely to have been at Hogwarts for at some of the same years. It also means that McG, the current transfiguration teacher (and known animagus) was more than likely taught transfiguration by Dumbledore (who we know to have been Riddle's transfig teacher). Arya From Veritas771 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 24 04:05:04 2003 From: Veritas771 at hotmail.com (michaelkgidlow) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 04:05:04 -0000 Subject: Dementor question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78569 Something has been bugging me about the Dementors. Were they allied with Voldemort during his first rise to power (before Harry was born)? Because if they were, then why were they put in charge of Azakaban? Maybe they had always been guards at Azakaban and were secretly allied with Voldemort. But if that's the case, then why at the end of the second book did they so openly leave their posts at Azakaban? And what does it mean when they are "sent for" or "sent back" to Azakaban? I'm confused. Would someone shed some light on this? Michael Gidlow. From annemehr at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 04:50:31 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 04:50:31 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sorting (Was:Re: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78570 > > Severus here: > > > > the section of book you are talking about is quite misleading in my > > opinion. > > Donna says: > > In SS, the hat does not bring up Slytherin until Harry says he > doesn't want to go there. > In CoS, the hat stands by what he said, but does not say he would > have definately placed Harry in Slytherin, just that he would have > done well there. I also think that the hat is confirming the house > he did put Harry into. Annemehr: I agree with Donna. Here is what the Hat actually says in CoS: "You've been wondering whether I put you in the right House," said the hat smartly. "Yes...you were particularly difficult to place. But I stand by what I said before" -- Harry's heart leapt -- "you /would/ have done well in Slytherin --" It seems like many people read the last sentence as if it ended in a period instead of a dash (indeed, Harry himself seems to take it as a completed thought). However, IMO, if Harry had let the hat finish, the whole sentence would have been "But I stand by what I said before -- you /would/ have done well in Slytherin, but I was right to put you in Gryffindor." After all, not so long after the scene in DD's office, the hat will be bringing Harry Gryffindor's sword. As for Harry's sorting, since Harry himself rules out Slytherin before the hat makes any indication at all where it might put him, we'll never know if it would have put him in Gryffindor all on its own. The way I always read it, the hat saw Slytherin as one viable option, but it wouldn't necessarily have chosen it over Gryffindor. I think it's quite clear from the books by now that many students have quite a mix of qualities, Harry included, of what suits a student for any of the houses. Harry himself also carries some "Slytherinliness" that was transferred to him from LV. However, at heart Harry is all Gryffindor, and I believe the hat would have discerned that in the end anyway. Of course, I'm perfectly aware that, as Harry seems to interrupt the hat at every crucial moment, the opinion that the hat really wanted to put Harry in Slytherin remains perfectly valid. Annemehr who continues to think, despite that last paragraph, that everything else points to Harry belonging in Gryffindor... From two4menone4you88 at aol.com Sun Aug 24 04:55:50 2003 From: two4menone4you88 at aol.com (yairadubin) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 04:55:50 -0000 Subject: Percy's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78571 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > Forgive me if this has been discussed, I searched and always came up > with either 1500 messages or 0 (darn the Yahoo powers that be!) > > > > Why isn't Percy in Slytherin? > > If the defining charcteristic of Slytherins is "use any means to > achieve their ends" (Percy sending back his mum's sweater, that's > just wrong!) "Power hungry Slytherin loved those of great ambition" > (definitly sounds like Percy) and the Weasleys are pureblood wizards > as far back as anyone can remember, shouldn't he be? > > He seems like the type who's always wanted to be in the MoM, even > before Hogwarts. > > I think JKR may have missed her chance for 'the good slytherin' here > (assuming he shows some major redeeming qualities, including an > apology for the sweater, in the last two books, until then, I'm > counting him as evil-by-lack-of-goodness) > > > ~Margaret > who hopes Percy comes back and if not, hopes he's the Weasley who > dies (if one really has to) Um, don't you think having Percy in Slytherin while all the rest of the Weasleys were in Gryffindor would have looked a little suspicious in the first books when we didn't know he would turn traitor? It would have ruined the plot twist in OOTP! Also, a major subplot of the HP books has been Ron's overwhemling need to live up to his brothers. If one of them had been in Slytherin already, it wouldn't have been such a big deal. Just a few points I wanted to bring up. Luv, *Yaira* From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 05:00:54 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 05:00:54 -0000 Subject: Free will/Calvinism in a nutshell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78572 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melanie " wrote: > Sounds like Dumbledore's something of a Calvinist (at least as far > as believing in predestination goes). Consequently, I'd like to > shift gears and try to explain predestination in a way that > hopefully makes some sense and will allow us to make peace with the > concept. > Now, narrow down the range of choices even further. Let's say that, > at any given moment in my life, I have only one real choice -- even > though it seems to me like I have several. I make my choices > willingly, therefore I am responsible for my choices. Even though I > was not actually *free* to choose the things I did *not* end up > choosing, I made all my choices willingly. > > I'm sure someone out there can explain it better, but I hope that > made sense. No, that explanation does very nicely. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the very thing to which she was referring when she talked about worrying that people will work out what will happen in the books if they know very much about her religious affiliation. As she is a member of the Church of Scotland, which essentially makes her a Presbyterian, that would possibly imply that she does in fact believe in predestination (although this isn't necessarily so just because it's a well-known tenet of the church--I'm a Presbyterian too, and my personal jury is still out on this). However, if this does carry over into the series, this could mean that now that we have a Prophecy, we should fully expect it to come true. In OotP she even has the Divination-skeptic, Hermione, talking about REAL Prophecies. And Harry certainly seems to believe it will come true (or he wouldn't have been quite so depressed at the end of OotP, IMO.) In fact, one might even look on her choice of time travel styles as illustrative of her philosophy concerning this issue. Perhaps PoA gave us all of the information we needed about it. When Harry made choices during the time-travel sequence, he did in fact decide what he was going to do and did it. It wasn't that he had no choice--but what occurred was going to occur no matter what. (In fact, it had already happened, since he'd gone back in time.) In some other people's time travel stories alternate universes can be spawned; not so in hers, as far as we have seen (or at least not when one uses a Time Turner). Events were always going to unfold in a particular way, and just because Harry didn't know that Buckbeak wasn't executed until he traveled through time didn't mean it was ever any different. I think a good Calvinist would heartily approve of her time-travel sequence in PoA. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From sues0101 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 24 04:50:28 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 04:50:28 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Sexual preference Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78573 >From: "jeffl1965" > > > At the risk of throwing the cat among the pidgeons here, *evil > > grin*, I have to reply to the poster who said that Harry had never >ever > > indicated > > that there might be a boy he was interested in, and disagree. In >GoF, > > Harry meets Bill for the first time (p. 50) and is surprised by his > > appearance. > > "Bill was, there was no other word for it - cool." Harry has never > > thought this about another wizard hehe. > > > > There are a couple of mentions about Bill in the OoTP too, which > > were added that didn't need to be there, that shows Harry was at >least > > thinking > > about Bill. I'll have to go find them again. There was one about >some > > wizard's hair being as long as Bill's, or longer, and something >else I can't > > remember exactly > > what, but something. I know mention was also made on OoTP that Bill >was > > giving > > Fleur 'private lessons' in English just after Harry asked if Bill >was at > > headquarters (p.67). > > > I agree. He really did fall for Bill, didn't he. :) I know Ron >worships him and Charlie as well, but Harry's reaction was almost >like what I've seen in some sappy Mary Sue ficcies. :) > > Jeff > > Sue: Thanks Jeff, and in my further reading of OoTP, I found something else (another evil chuckle here). When Harry comes into the kitchen for dinner on his first night at 12 Grimmauld Place, he sees Mr Weasley and Bill talking at the table. Mr Weasley comes over to him and says hello, but Harry ignores him and looks over his shoulder at Bill, who he notices is still wearing his hair long, and talks to him instead. AND, in GoF who were the people allowed to stay in the infirmary after Harry's run in with LV and Crouch/Moody? His two best friends, Mrs Weasley (mother figure) and Bill. You can read into it what you like here can't you? Plus harry says he had a great day showing the two of them around. Aaah, we can all read into things what we like. I'm off to find some more clues. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. No account expiration - no need to worry about losing your Hotmail account. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From cookiemacster at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 03:26:45 2003 From: cookiemacster at yahoo.com (cookiemacster) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:26:45 -0000 Subject: Can Harry do Leilimency? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78574 Hey! I searched and wasn't successful in finding much about Legilimency, so if this has been posted before I'm sorry. I really did try so don't get angry. Ok, In we go! When Harry is taking his history of Magic O.W.L. and he can't remember the answer to some question, he sits there wishing he could do Legilimeny and "open a window in the back of..." Pavarti's head, then all the sudden all this information pops into his head. What if he can do legilimency? (Before you start to argue with me about this let me finish! Please!) This is actually plausible when you think about it. Harry has some weird connection with Volde#*%~ and maybe this is just another part of it. He has found that he has many of the same powers as Volde#*%~; and since Volde... excels at Legilimency maybe Harry shares this as well. In some of the posts I read(sorry I don't remember which ones) the posters seem to, in most part, agree that Volde... doesn't have to actually say anything in order to do the spell/curse, so that fits. As for looking the victum in the eye, Snape(I think) addresses this when he says that Volde... has found a way around it in order to trespass in to Harry's mind. Harry could in some have that same ability. N E thoughts? Once again, Sorry if this has already been posted and discussed to death! I really looked! Yet another, Little thought gone long! -Macy From juju_dragon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 19:10:09 2003 From: juju_dragon at hotmail.com (V-chan) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:10:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78575 >> Sue Porter: >> ...*evil grin*, I have to reply to the poster who said that Harry >> had never ever indicated that there might be a boy he was >> interested in, and disagree...There are a couple of mentions about >> Bill...that shows Harry was at least thinking about Bill... >> I'll go now and hunt up some more clues for my evil plan. > The Sergeant Majorette says: > Oooh! I have to say I agree that this gay thread is totally evil, > and I have *so* missed it! Now, if only the folk who think "evil" > refers "Satan and all his works and pomps" could go and relax with > a cup of herbal tea, those of us who understand "evil" to mean > stiletto heels and red, red lips can get on with the dishing... > > --JDR My first post to the ml and, JDR, I must second your opinion! Evil is subejective, at least in the philosphoic sense. ^_^ Now to the meat of this post: As far Harry being interested in boys or not, it should be noted that he never seemed to be very interested in *girls* either. From the way he acted toward Pavarti during the Yule Ball to not understanding *why* Cho is so hung up on his friendship with Hermione, it seems that Harry is rather obilivious when it comes to girls. Even during OotP when they are 'dating', Harry is focused more on the his guilt over Cedric death and his attitude toward Cho is one of platonic comforting. He comes across to me as being awkward and insecure when it comes to any social situations, let alone romance, which is understandable considering how the Dursley's treat him... Bringing the rambling back on topic, I have to say that Harry is pretty ambigious in terms of sexuality. The strongest attractions we've seen him display so far are his feelings toward the Weasleys, Hermione, and Sirius. In my mind, though, I've always pictured Harry as being bisexual. It's like having the best of both worlds. ^_^ From einwinterlang at yahoo.de Sat Aug 23 14:16:40 2003 From: einwinterlang at yahoo.de (einwinterlang) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:16:40 -0000 Subject: Waspy Snape In-Reply-To: <007801c368d7$71a28700$7ef3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78576 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolin M?nkemeyer wrote: > > Talisman, reviewing her field-guide to insects, notes: snip Still I agree that the buzzing wasp that distracts Harry, as he is > > slipping into his ultimate Legilimency moment, is significant. (OoP 725) > > And I think we've seen that wasp before. > > Now who could it be? (Well, you should know me by now.) > > I've only noticed one character who is described in waspish terms. > > "Snape prowled through the fumes, making waspish remarks about the Gryffindors . . .." (CoS 186) > > "`I am here on Dumbledore's orders,' said Snape, whose voice, by > > contrast, was becoming more and more quietly waspish . . .." (OoP > > 518) snip > Me: > I am sorry to disagree. I have the Germand copy and ot the books > and if it would be so important as you suggest, it would have been > in there too, wouldn't it? I more think it has a double meaning > (one "real" and one figurative), because something like that in > German would sound very odd. For it isn't there and nothing that > comes close to it that suggests a wasp I don't think Snape is a > wasp or has any other relation to it than using it in his potions. > > Yours Finchen now me: You must keep in mind that the german translations of the books are, well, rather crude and inaccurate and just very bad in general. There's no sense of the more subtle undertones in there, so I wouldn't be surprised if the German translator had simply missed that connotation (like he has on so many other occasions). Just to say that I'm all for Waspy Snape. ;-) einwinterlang From entropymail at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 19:42:04 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:42:04 -0000 Subject: Female Names (Was:Flower Names/Was: Narcissa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78577 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Katrina" wrote: > After reading the etymology of Narcissa, I decided to look up the > flower names found in the Potter-verse and discovered some > interesting associations I found this info on the name "Bellatrix". Although it's not a flower name, it is an astronmical name, in keeping with many HP names, particularly those in the Black family: History of the star: A pale yellow star marking the left shoulder of Orion, the Great Hunter. Bellatrix, the "Female Warrior", the Amazon Star, is from the translation of its Arabic title, Al Najid, "the Conqueror".The Arabians also call it Yad al-Jauza, "Hand of Orion".In astrology it was the natal star of all destined to great civil or military honors, and rendered all women born under its influence lucky and loquacious; or, as old Thomas Hood said, "women born under this constellation shall have mighty tongues." From entropymail at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 13:24:01 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 13:24:01 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power is Self-sacrifice In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78578 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "yale sam wahl" > wrote: > > > I have read the arguments here for love, hope, etc. but the one > power that I > > believe is being referred to is self-sacrifice. His mom gave up > her life for > > Harry, and Harry has time and again been willing to sacrifice > himself if it > > means saving others. Excellent point. And don't forget how many times throughout OoP, as well as GoF (think of everyone's reaction to Harry's rescuing Fleur's sister, who did't really need rescuing), we heard someone tell Harry that he had a "saving-people-thing"? Entropy From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 14:43:25 2003 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:43:25 -0000 Subject: Regulus Black is Stubby Boardman???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78579 >>> Regulus being Stubby Boardman is an interesting theory, but one that did not come to my mind. When Harry mentioned Sirius's name, it was Luna who said to him "you mean Stubby Boardman?" I think it might be important to consider the source JKR used to introduce this new clue to the story. Why did SHE mention Stubby? Does or did Stubby have something to do with The Quibbler and/or her father? My theory is that Sirius may have been using the pseudonym Stubby Boardman (same initials) in order to be secretive (and we all know that Sirius had many things to be secretive about). I think Sirius may have been leading a sort of double life under that name. The only thing i don't like about my theory is that Stubby is now gone as well... I am hoping that there was some sort of switching spell involved and it was Stubby rather than Sirius that Bellatrix finished off! Brookeshanks :o)<<<<< Oh that's an interesting twist. What we won't do to keep Sirius alive. But the initials are the same, too. Hmmmmm ..... And Arthur and Kingsley thought that Sirius would enjoy reading the article. They seemed to find it amusing somehow. How could Sirius have been going after Pettigrew the same time he > was having dinner with Doris? Time turner? Regulus is his identical twin? Stubby is using polyjuice potion? More questions than answers. From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 17:30:50 2003 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:30:50 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78580 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Danger Mouse" wrote: (mumbles something about Lily being the good non-Snape Slytherin he's been looking for) The woman of your dreams has been introduced in OotP. Tonks was very likely a Slytherin. At the prefect party, Ginny (or Hermione) asked her if she had been a prefect. She answered something like, no. Her head of house didn't think she had a proper regard for the rules. Sound like Snape was her Head of House? She's also a descendant of the Black family, but that's a thin crust to bake. From juju_dragon at hotmail.com Sat Aug 23 19:24:04 2003 From: juju_dragon at hotmail.com (V-chan) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:24:04 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: <200308231310.57266.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78581 > I've been reading the thread and I've noticed the mythological > references, I'll like to add that centaurs, bacchae, and berserks > were also notorious for ingesting phychoactive fungus during > rituals, which leads easily to the violence and lust fame. > > I don't think Jo is giving a view of centaurs that include uses of > amanita muscaria in rituals that end with rapery, but the hint to > the shock can be she has been drugged. They have forced her to > 'see'. > Links: > > > silmariel Very good point there. The idea that Umbridge's punishment was to see her own future, possibly even her own death, fits neatly into the information JKR has given us about her centaurs. It also works well with the fact that Umbridge is in a state of shock after she's "rescued". After all, wouldn't seeing yourself die be rather tramatic? V, who's strongly opposed to the "Umbridge was raped" theory. From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 21:36:27 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 14:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030823213627.71635.qmail@web20508.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78582 Danger Mouse wrote: Entropymail: His mom, Lily, was in Slytherin House, wasn't she? Dan: Nope! Well... maybe. We don't know--there's no canon I've ever, ever seen. But she does have green eyes which is good enough for me, lol. (mumbles something about Lily being the good non-Snape Slytherin he's been looking for) Eowynn: So this whole topic has been bothering me for a while, but I didn't have any canon to back up what I thought to be true, and I wasn't sure if it was just movie contamination, but I was sure that somewhere DD mentioned that LV (aka Tom Riddle)was the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherine. I didn't have my book with me when this topic first came up, and I have been kind of ignoring it for the last little while, until now. CoS pg.332 (US edition): "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry...because Lord Voldemort- who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherine- can speak Parseltongue..." So I guess what I am wondering is if the canon says that LV is the last heir, how did we get that Lily (a mudblood) could be the heir? Eowynn (who probably takes things a little too literally) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From tamliv at worldnet.att.net Sun Aug 24 02:36:52 2003 From: tamliv at worldnet.att.net (Tamee Livingston) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 18:36:52 -0800 Subject: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination Message-ID: <06f701c369e8$a81910d0$43c50c0c@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 78583 For a while, I've been trying to figure out what Voldemort's ultimate goals are, and if they're just about personal immortality and general destruction, why on earth someone like Lucius Malfoy, who seems intent on power and position, would follow him. I know someone said recently that probably Lucius looks on Voldemort as a means to his own ends, and I think that's very likely. So what has Voldemort to offer Lucius beyond the not too attractive "obey me or die" directive, that Lucius can't accomplish within Wizarding World politics? I think that what the pure bloods following Voldemort are after is total world conquest. I think that they hate the idea of concealment as much as they hate muggles and muggleborn wizards. In their minds, muggles are inferior, little more than animals, and yet they, the superior race, are the ones in hiding. What I see Lucius desiring is for control of the WW followed by the conquest of muggles and a world ruled by a wizard elite with himself preferably at the head or at least the power behind the throne. Of course, Voldemort seems determined to mess around with lame brain plans that end up going nowhere, and Lucius follows them straight into Azkaban, so I have no idea what any of them think they are up to. If I have snitched anyone's idea without giving credit rest assured it was completely unintentional or coincidental. I hope I've made the slightest bit of sense, since frankly Voldemort doesn't really make any sense to me. Right now, he seems so cartoonish, it seems like he'd get along just fine with Snidely Whiplash. Tamee [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From dwoodward at towson.edu Sun Aug 24 03:36:20 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Deirdre F Woodward) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:36:20 -0000 Subject: Query about Quidditch/Weird Sisters Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78584 Does it bother anyone else that each house only plays *three* games a year? Even with all the houses playing, that's only six games a year. Since it's the only sport in the wizarding world (true?) you'd think they'd play it a *lot* more often. Separate topic entirely: The Weird Sisters. This band has got to be my favorite character. I love every time the Weird Sisters get on stage, and this weekend I am screening a Weird Sisters t-shirt. Rock on Weird Sisters! Deirdre Eight of Eight From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Sun Aug 24 08:21:45 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 08:21:45 -0000 Subject: Myrtle's glasses, Basilisk, Camera, Ghost In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78585 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: > > SO, here I am just reading this post and WHAM!--it slams into me like a > bludger. Maybe this is 'duh!' for most people but, it just struck me the > implications of the Basilisk being able to kill with a look--with its *eyes*. > > I can see Harry becoming skilled at Legilimency (it seems it may be easy to > master after learning Occlumency, which he will probably soon learn to > master) (and we also have seen Harry with several 'intuitive' hunches) and > then being able to look into one's eyes (Voldemort's? No, maybe bellatrix--I > still say Harry has do V in with some love and understnading--but Bella can > get the axe) and his/her soul (if she has one) and see her worth as a person > worthy of living, if when Harry can see only evil, and begins to wish/want the > person dead, then the intent in his mind and heart flow through his eyes and > the person drops dead. > > My brainstormed theory for the day. > > Arya Mlle: Another bit to bolster your arguement; both Harry's eyes and the Avada Kedavra curse are green. Hehehe...If looks could kill.... Mlle Bienvenu -who is sorry about the one-liner, but it's four in the morning and her brain has stopped functioning...- From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 10:37:39 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:37:39 -0000 Subject: Percy's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78586 Hickengruendler message 78516: >Also, we have seen that Percy is brave, when he fought the >Death Eaters at the Quidditch-World Cup. He didn't seem to hesistate >a second, when the older Weasleys went to help the Roberts family. >Percy has many faults, but that doesn't mean he is a coward. *Yaira* message 78571 : >Um, don't you think having Percy in Slytherin while all the rest of >the Weasleys were in Gryffindor would have looked a little >suspicious in the first books when we didn't know he would turn >traitor? It would have ruined the plot twist in >OOTP! Me again: I addressed both of these in message 78499, I realize it was nessecary for Percy to be in Gryffindor for the defection in OoP to have any surprise (not that it did for me, although I'm *still* upset about the sweater). If that's the only reason he was in Gryffindor, I think it's very weak. I think if it was his 'choice' to be in Gryffindor, it was probably because he had heard Dumbledore was in Gryffindor. Wouldn't Percy *love* to be in the same house as the- only-one-Voldemort-ever-feared Dumbledore? Why does everyone think that by saying Percy is anything but an ideal Gryffindor I'm calling him a coward? I never said he was a coward, although I don't think he is particularly brave. Other people besides Gryffindors are allowed to be brave, if they have other non- Gryffindor qualities, they get sorted somewhere else. But they're still brave. Slytherins are not cowards, As Phineas Nigellus said: "We Slytherins are brave, yes, but not stupid. For instance, given the choice, we will always choose to save our own necks". (OoP pg495 US hardcover) Fighting the Death Eaters at the QWC can be proof of bravery, or it's just more proof that Percy will do anything to get in good with the people in power. At the time he was Crouch Sr.'s assistant, and it was well known how much he detested anything to do with the Dark Arts. It could be brave, or it could be a calculated political move. Even if I can't believe out and out in PIE , PERFECT TARGET has my vote ~Margaret From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sun Aug 24 10:40:41 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:40:41 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination In-Reply-To: <06f701c369e8$a81910d0$43c50c0c@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78587 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamee Livingston" wrote: > For a while, I've been trying to figure out what Voldemort's ultimate goals are, and if they're just about personal immortality and general destruction, why on earth someone like Lucius Malfoy, who seems intent on power and position, would follow him. So what has Voldemort to offer Lucius beyond the not too attractive "obey me or die" directive, that Lucius can't accomplish within Wizarding World politics? > > I think that what the pure bloods following Voldemort are after is total world conquest. I think that they hate the idea of concealment as much as they hate muggles and muggleborn wizards. > Tamee Marika: In Lucius' case I would like to add the fact that he is interested in the dark arts and has a collection of illegal artefacts. Besides a hunger for political power, he wants to use his magical ones as well, (including illegal curses). In the "wizarding world of today" there are rules and regulations which limits him. Voldemort is a possible solution to this dilemma. If he takes the power, Lucius would be free to be openly sadistic. Of course he has already lost a lot of freedom by working for V, but at least once he must have believed that it would pay off. Marika From sydpad at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 10:44:39 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:44:39 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78588 Silmariel wrote: > > I've been reading the thread and I've noticed the mythological > > references, I'll like to add that centaurs, bacchae, and berserks > > were also notorious for ingesting phychoactive fungus during > > rituals, which leads easily to the violence and lust fame. > > > > I don't think Jo is giving a view of centaurs that include uses of > > amanita muscaria in rituals that end with rapery, but the hint to > > the shock can be she has been drugged. They have forced her to > > 'see'. V added: > Very good point there. The idea that Umbridge's punishment was to see > her own future, possibly even her own death, fits neatly into the > information JKR has given us about her centaurs. It also works well > with the fact that Umbridge is in a state of shock after > she's "rescued". After all, wouldn't seeing yourself die be rather > tramatic? > > V, who's strongly opposed to the "Umbridge was raped" theory. Me: I agree, that's quite a cool concept. I can see a big crazy psychoactive montage going on! I should stress though, that the Centaurs cleary intended to kill Umbridge: when Hagrid meets them in the woods, they say "the slaughter of foals is a terrible crime" but they feel free with adults. I don't think a little education in inter-species harmony or higher consciousness was what they had in mind. Sydney-- who for the record doesn't exactly believe "Umbrige was raped", just that Rowling leaves it open. From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Sun Aug 24 11:33:43 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:33:43 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78589 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > It seems to me that Remus has learned the > most from his mistakes in adolescent strategy. He's seen the results > of failing to act to prevent harm being done to someone else. He's > also learned a lot about human behavior-what motivates people, what's > important to them. Adult!Remus puts those lessons together and > becomes a force for good. He teaches, both literally and by example, > how to handle darkness, whether it takes the form of a creature, a > spell or a moral weakness. Did he really? He didn't tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus, when he still thought Sirius to be evil. He also didn't tell Dumbledore, that Sirius knows about the secret passage into Hogwarts. He still didn't say anything, when Sirius tried to break in the Gryffindor tower, or later, when he was in Harry's dormitory. Of course, Sirius wasn't a danger for Harry, but Lupin didn't know this at that point. But he still decided to keep the secret, because he feared to lose Dumbledore's trust. He even as good as admitted it in the shrieking shrack. Which leads me to another point. I was highly impressed by the post about generation parallels by Abigail. But I think there are two more similarities between a member of James' and a member of Harry's generation. One is Remus/Neville. In some way, Neville is IMO the anti Lupin. Both have something in common. They are calm and gentle people, who never really complain. They also had a pretty hard life. But Neville has the ability, to admit his mistakes and to stand up to his friends, even if it has negative consequences for him. We have seen this in book 1, and than later in POA, when admitted, that it was him, who lost the passwords (which, ironically, he didn't. Crookshanks stole it from his bedside table). Neville did face the consequences, be it an argument with the people who are maybe the closest friends he has at Hogwarts, or a severe punishment from Minerva McGonnagal. This is a kind of bravery, Lupin obviously doesn't have. That doesn't make him a coward. He is a very brave man when fighting his enemies, but he isn't able to stand up to his friends or allies. Lupin knows about this flaw, but he still isn't able to change. The second parallel is Snape/ Luna. Both were outsiders, who were bullied by a certain group of people. But while Snape is bitter and helds grudges, Luna doesn't seem to care and tries her best to ignore the bullies. Hickengruendler From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 12:32:39 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:32:39 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78590 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > > It seems to me that Remus has learned the > > most from his mistakes in adolescent strategy. He's seen the > results > > of failing to act to prevent harm being done to someone else. He's > > also learned a lot about human behavior-what motivates people, > what's > > important to them. Adult!Remus puts those lessons together and > > becomes a force for good. He teaches, both literally and by > example, > > how to handle darkness, whether it takes the form of a creature, a > > spell or a moral weakness. > hickengruendler at y...> wrote: > Did he really? He didn't tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus, > when he still thought Sirius to be evil. He also didn't tell > Dumbledore, that Sirius knows about the secret passage into Hogwarts. > He still didn't say anything, when Sirius tried to break in the > Gryffindor tower, or later, when he was in Harry's dormitory. Of > course, Sirius wasn't a danger for Harry, but Lupin didn't know this > at that point. But he still decided to keep the secret, because he > feared to lose Dumbledore's trust. He even as good as admitted it in > the shrieking shrack. Laura again: You know, I was thinking about the secret passage question last night after I posted the quoted message. Remus could have told DD about them without having to explain the whole animagus situation. Being able to sneak in and out of the castle would be quite in character for the Marauders. So why didn't Remus go to DD? Well, obviously there's the meta-issue of plot. JKR might need that passage into Honeydukes later, so she can't have DD close it off. But in regard to Remus, his explanation that he convinced himself that Sirius was using dark magic to get into the school just seems weak to me. He would know better than anyone that Sirius didn't need dark skills to get into Hogwarts. Throughout PoA, Remus is very touchy about Sirius-any time Harry mentions him, Remus gets defensive and changes the subject as quickly as possible. Now this could be guilt, for not having figured out that Sirius was the spy. But I don't think so, at least not entirely. It reads to me-and this is entirely my take; canon doesn't prove or disprove it-like Remus has never completely accepted what happened with Sirius. After all, everyone else, from Rosmerta to McGonagall, is quite open about the extent to which they were duped by SB. There doesn't seem to be any shame in it. Even DD thinks he was fooled. So why wouldn't Remus be able to admit that he made a mistake in judgement? I have to believe that Remus could never fully accept the official explanation of what happened in Godric's Hollow and afterwards. If he truly believed it, why wouldn't he have taken more drastic action when he saw Sirius with HRH on the map? He could have brought help or even stunned Sirius himself in the shack, but he made no attempt whatsoever to disable him. (We know Remus doesn't realize that the secret keeper switch took place until the discussion in the shack happens, so even if he has discovered that Peter is still alive, he still has good reason to assume that Sirius is the real criminal.) The alternative is that Remus would allow Harry to be put at risk in order to save his own reputation, and that's too harsh for me. Sure, teen!Remus let Snape be pushed around by J&S without intervening. But (1) Snape went out of his way to cause difficulties for Remus, so he wasn't entirely an innocent party the way Harry was vis-a-vis criminal!Sirius and (2) Remus never allowed Snape's life to be endangered (he was out of the picture during the Prank). So yes, Remus was weak, both as a teenager and during his teaching time at Hogwarts, but was he really so selfish as to be morally deficient? I hope not. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Sun Aug 24 13:10:17 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:10:17 -0000 Subject: Query about Quidditch/Weird Sisters - music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78591 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deirdre F Woodward" wrote: > Separate topic entirely: The Weird Sisters. > This band has got to be my favorite character. I love every time the > Weird Sisters get on stage, and this weekend I am screening a Weird > Sisters t-shirt. > The Weird Sisters make me wonder what else the WW does for music. And what about people who don't like modern music? Do wizards like Bach and Mozart? (I can't see why not.) And do they have some way of listening to music, as Muggles have recordings? It's funny that you never hear about Hogwarts students listening to music, when it's one of the most common interests of Muggle children that age. I'd think that students who grew up in Muggle families would really miss familiar music once they get to Hogwarts. Or is that sort of thing replaced by something more wizardish? There must be *something* - doesn't Dumbledore say in his first speech at Hogwarts that music is the greatest magic of all? Wanda From greywolf1 at jazzfree.com Sun Aug 24 13:54:36 2003 From: greywolf1 at jazzfree.com (Grey Wolf) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 13:54:36 -0000 Subject: Dementor question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78592 Michael Gidlow wrote: > Were they allied with Voldemort during his first rise to power > (before Harry was born)? There is no clear canon about it. Dumbledore speaks, in GoF, of the dementors as "creatures who will join [Voldemort] the instant he asks them". There has been no indication that they were part of last war (unlike, say, the giants) but, as you point out, they wouldn't have been offered to be guards of their ex-allies. We have other indirect evidence: in particular, what the MoM has done to the losers of the last war: giants were exiled, DEs summarily inprisoned (except those that bought their way out), etc. Dementors didn't suffer any of these things, so they probably weren't part of Voldemort's side then. > Because if they were, then why were they put in charge of > Azakaban? Maybe they had always been guards at Azakaban and were > secretly allied with Voldemort. Again, there is no canon that supports any sort of alliance. Besides, it doesn't seem Dementors are intelligent enough for secrect pacts. They operate at the basic level of "eat". They were put in Azkaban because they're good guards - particularly for wizards, since they prevent them from using magic. I have had a theory for some time now that Dementors as guards are relatively new. IMO, until a few years ago, Dementors were unknown, or just rarely sighted. Then, there were more of them, and the wizards contacted them and offered the chance to be guards (and I assume an "or else" was involved there somehow, since the guard duty isn't very fullfilling for Dementors). > And what does it mean when they are "sent for" or "sent > back" to Azakaban? I'm confused. Would someone shed some light on > this? > > Michael Gidlow. Dementors live in Azkaban, They are not allowed to roam the country, because of the danger they pose for the wizards. Thus, when not in duty for the ministry, they are supposed to stay at Azkaban and do whatever it is Dementors do in their free time. Dement the prisoners, I supose. When thay *are* in duty they have to be called from Azkaban (sent for) and when that duty is finished, they are sent back. Hope that helps, Grey Wolf From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Sun Aug 24 14:14:20 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:14:20 -0000 Subject: Arthurian Legends (was: Heir of Gryffindor) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78593 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "meltowne" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whizbang" > wrote: > > >snip< > > > This would not be the first Arthurian referent in Potterworld > > > > ~snip~ Dumbledore reference to Harry's pulling > > Gryffindor's sword out of Gryffindor's hat seems relevant. ~snip~ ~snip~ > Godric Gryffindor's sword reminds me greatly of Excaliber, as well, > though that dound have been Arthur's (Dumbledore's?) sword. Tj: I have alway thought that Harry pulling the sword out of the Hat was *important*. And as whizbang said "reminds one of Excaliber." I take it a step furter and say... it reminds me of the sword in the stone. *Who* could pull it out? Does this make Harry the future *King*? Or *MOM*. Which brings to mind a question. Who knows that Harry *pulled* the sword out of the S-hat? Hummmm. They know Harry used the sword but, who knows besides DD? I would if... Heir of Gryffindor has it's own ledgend too? (ie. like heir of slythern) But, it's not talked about, I wonder why? Oh well, having reread my post it seems I have more questions that answers. Oh well... maybe I need some coffee. Ta ta.. Tj From rredordead at aol.com Sun Aug 24 15:00:46 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:00:46 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78594 Marika: (Snip) Of course he has already lost a lot of freedom by working for V, but at least once he must have believed that it would pay off. Now me: I think that once Lucius believed LV was an answer to his ambitions but he has since grown up and now is in the impossible position of having to answer to LV when really I don't think Lucius needs or wants the Dark Lord any more, but what can he do? I imagine that Lucius was still young when he joined LV. Let's assume he was one of that group of Slytherins who all went on to become Death Eaters during the last war, that implies he was straight out of school only 18 or so. Perhaps he joined earlier than that. Lucius was probably sill living at home and somewhat under the influence of his parents. Joining LV would look very attractive to him then. But LV was struck down by Harry Potter and since that time Lucius Malfoy has made it on his own, finding power and influence and status in the WW. Something I imagine his parents told him he would have all along, after all he's a Malfoy, but like all children, Lucius wanted to prove himself on his own and in doing so he made a deal with the devil. Unfortunately, as with all deals with the devil, I don't see a way out for Lucius Malfoy. Malfoy and LV both know LV is a stronger wizard and they both know Lucius has more to loose than ever before; not just his standing in the community but his family as well. LV believes Lucius owns him for not coming to help him when he attacked Harry and lost. I think, because of this, Malfoy was forced into the raid on the MOM. Otherwise what possible advantage could Malfoy have had in participating in that raid? He had everything to loose nothing to gain except LV favor and by that I mean LV not harming him or his family. I do see some possible twist with Lucius Malfoy turning against LV if he has the chance. I don't think he'll come out of it alive and perhaps that is what turns Drago against LV. After all we need a Slytherin to assist DA in the final battle. Mandy From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 24 15:03:05 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 24 Aug 2003 15:03:05 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1061737385.143.59761.m8@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78595 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, August 24, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From alm at sonic.net Sat Aug 23 17:59:27 2003 From: alm at sonic.net (amerkrebs) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 17:59:27 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78596 > BubbaQRib wrote: > > > I ask this question first based on the statement by JKR that one > > scene had to stay in CoS because it was important long term to the > > story. I'm thinking of the scene where Hermione says "Harry for all > > we know you could be the heir of Slytherin". > Grey Wolf replied: > IIRC, the scene she was refering to was one in the chamber of secrets, > but don't quote me there. I've never been sure where that statement > comes from, anyway (could someone provide a link? Thanks). > To be brief, this statement was made by JK in the CoS DVD interview with her and Kloves. Happy Pottering to all- From mkeller01 at alltel.net Sun Aug 24 16:25:22 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:25:22 -0000 Subject: Dragons, Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78597 Kat O'Klzmk/rxk wrote: > Perhaps it isn't Harry's physical vision that is his > weak point, but rather his (as yet) inability to look at > things/people/events surrounding him in a less subjective way. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rubyxkelly" > Perhaps it isn't Harry's physical vision that is his > weak point, but rather his (as yet) inability to look at > things/people/events surrounding him in a less subjective way. I recalled this part of PoA in a dream last night: In chapter nine during the Quidditch game with Hufflepuff, Hermione uses a spell which allows Harry's glasses to repel water. His glasses are "impervious." Harry is then able to continue the game. Unfortuantely, the dementors show up and Harry falls. Having impervious vision ends up being his.......downfall. And I have no idea where to go with this. Anyone? Just tossin' it out there. Toad (who really shouldn't eat creamcicle fudge and read this list before going to bed) From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 24 16:40:31 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 16:40:31 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78598 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > The alternative is that Remus would allow Harry to be put at risk in > order to save his own reputation, and that's too harsh for me. I don't think it's his reputation he was trying to safeguard, but the bond of friendship and trust he had with Dumbledore. Dumbledore put a great deal of faith in Remus, both when he accepted him as a student and when he took him on as a teacher. Remus has spent his adult life alone, ostracized and mistrusted. I can totally understand his inability to do anything that might jeopardize his to a man he regards as a friend and mentor. Does this make him "morally deficient"? That's a really loaded term, just like "cowardly" and "manipulative." They all make it sound like I'm being much harsher on Remus than I really am. He has done a number of things wrong, all due to a persistent weakness in his character which he recognizes and regrets, but seems unable to overcome. Despite this weakness, I do believe he's a decent and compassionate man. Remarkably so, given the life he's lived. But this doesn't absolve him of the responsibility to try and overcome his weakness. It's not enough to feel bad when you've done something wrong. You have to learn to refrain from doing it over and over. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 17:24:58 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:24:58 -0000 Subject: FILK: Salazar S. Slytherin Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78599 After spending a wonderful evening with the filkers at Nimbus, I knew I would have to tiptoe into the world of filking other than as an observer. This is to the tune of Johnny Mercer's Jubilation T. Cornpone from Lil Abner. You can hear a snippet of the great Stubby Kaye singing the original at http://www.johnnymercer.com/listen.htm Salazar S. Slytherin When a thousand years ago young wizards needed to grow Who was there to slam the door and leave them out in the snow? Why it was Salazar S. Slytherin; Old "I Hate Children" Salazar S. Slytherin, He gave them the heave-ho. His three best friends decided that the time for Hogwarts was here. Who agreed provided that requirements were made clear? Why it was Salazar S. Slytherin; "Don't Let the Impure In" Salazar S. Slytherin, Eugenics Pioneer. The first Hogwarts Express arrived on Hogwarts opening day. Who ensured they made the trip the hardest possible way? Why it was Salazar S. Slytherin; Old "No Apparatin' In" Salazar S. Slytherin, he jinxed the place that day! HURRAY! Ambition, drive and cunning guile, he thought those traits were the best Who kept these students for his house and promptly shunned all the rest? Why it was Salazar S. Slytherin; Old "Protect your own skin" Salazar S. Slytherin, he got the cagey-est. With students walking all above with nare a thought to the risk, Who built a dungeon in a loo to keep a pet basilisk? Why it was Salazar S. Slytherin; Old "Snakey and Witherin'". Salazar S. Slytherin, a Parseltongue linguist. When Hogwarts opened up its doors to all without his consent, Who got his shorts bunched in a knot and took his marbles and went? Why it was Salazar S. Slytherin; Old "Sulky and Ditherin'." Salazar S. Slytherin, The Heir will soon be sent! FINALE: Though he's gone to his reward, his mighty torch is still lit. First in line. First to whine. First to holler, "I quit!" Why it was Salazar S. Slytherin; The hero of little men, Salazar S. Slytherin, he came, he saw, he split. Constance Vigilance, ickle firstie filker From akhillin at rcn.com Sun Aug 24 17:54:41 2003 From: akhillin at rcn.com (Anita Hillin) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 12:54:41 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FILK: Salazar S. Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78600 Susan Miller wrote: After spending a wonderful evening with the filkers at Nimbus, I knew I would have to tiptoe into the world of filking other than as an observer. This is to the tune of Johnny Mercer's Jubilation T. Cornpone from Lil Abner. Great! I've done a few productions of Li'l Abner and choreographed Jubliation T. Cornpone, so I'm working on the steps to this already. Hey, maybe we could adapt all of Li'l Abner. "Unnecessary Town" could be used for "Unnecessary Fudge" and "Put 'em Back the Way they Waz" for the Longbottoms, perhaps? akh Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 24 18:10:54 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:10:54 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Weird Sisters - music References: <1061740353.11433.27201.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002f01c36a6b$0f479420$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 78601 Wanda >The Weird Sisters make me wonder what else the WW does for music. >And what about people who don't like modern music? Do wizards like >Bach and Mozart? (I can't see why not.) And do they have some way >of listening to music, as Muggles have recordings? It's funny that >you never hear about Hogwarts students listening to music, when it's >one of the most common interests of Muggle children that age. I'd >think that students who grew up in Muggle families would really miss >familiar music once they get to Hogwarts. Or is that sort of thing >replaced by something more wizardish? There must be *something* - >doesn't Dumbledore say in his first speech at Hogwarts that music is >the greatest magic of all? I wonder if the key to the WW and music is that they _make_ music rather than just consuming it, as we did in our world before the advent of radio/TV/video/MTV and all that stuff. Or possibly that they are going that way. There is a radio station which broadcasts music, there are the Weird Sisters, there is even Stubby Boardman (if you believe that that's a real person). Conversely, there's never any mention of music going on in any of the pubs, not even in the Leaky Cauldron when Harry was staying there in PoA: you'd think they'd have a piano in the corner or a session going on or _something_ Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 24 18:17:12 2003 From: amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk (amy_marblefeet) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:17:12 -0000 Subject: From Muggleborn to Pure Blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78602 Before you read this I want you to know that I wrote this for my own amusement and I am fully aware of the yellow flag violations that it contains. *** There has been some discussion on the purity of blood of Severus Snape and what level of blood he could have had to get into Slytherin. It is not clear from the books that Voldemort was in Slytherin, but for the sake of argument and the fact that he is Salazars descendent/ancestor lets assume that he is for the moment. We know that Tom Marvolo Riddle is a half blood, a full blood wizard and a muggle. But he gets into Slytherin. We know that the sorting hat wanted to put Harry into Slytherin, Salazar had no problem with his blood, and Harry has a full blood father and a muggle born mother. But Harry is named as a half blood through out cannon by Draco and Voldemort. Can we assume from this that a Wizard "tainted" by Muggle born blood is also regarded as a half blood? If this is true then I feel there must be some intermediate step between a half blood Wizard and a Pureblood wizard. How many generations would it take for a Muggleborns family to pass from half blood to pure blood? Could this in-between step be known as a full blood wizard? A full blood wizard is a Wizard whos parents are both wizards but are not half blood wizards. For example: A muggle (M) who married a muggle (M) can give birth to a muggle (M) or a wizard (W). There was some interesting discussion about the "magic" gene and how it passes from generation to generation a while back but unfortunately I never followed it so I cannot give you any post numbers. Sorry. This possible wizard child will be a muggle born (MB) and be regarded by some to be a "mud blood". This muggle born (MB) can marry a muggle (M) and either give birth to a muggle born half blood (MBHB) or a half blood muggle (HBM). I do wonder how many of these HBM are going about, no magical ability but with one parent a witch or wizard. Or the MB can marry a full blood wizard (FB). This child will either be a squib, a child of two wizarding parents (whatever their blood) who has no magical power, or be a half blood (HB), see Harry. I do not know if the child of a muggle born and a muggle would be regarded as a "mud blood" or a "half blood" by the aristocracy. Now this HB can have children with any one but as we are trying to marginalise the muggle blood in the child I will rule out - a muggle, a half blood muggle, a muggle born half blood, and for arguments sake a Squib. This half blood married a full blood wizard. I am almost certain that this child would be regarded as a full blood wizard. By the next generation, certainly, provided the child of the half blood with another full blood married a full blood. Now for those of you who didn't get any of that, I am hesitant not to count myself in that number, that is four generations. Muggle to Muggle born, Muggle born to Half blood, Half blood to Full blood and once more for luck. We know that Ernie MacMillian thinks of himself as pure blood through five generations of witches and warlocks (why not wizards one wonders?). Could this be that after four generations as above there must be around five more to allow a wizard to move into the pure blood circle of the wizarding world? No wonder there are so few of them and the few that there are, are all interbred. Here is a little diagram of what is written above about the steps to become a pure blood wizard -Muggles Half blood Muggles Squibs -Muggle born Half blood Muggle born -Half blood Wizards -Half blood/Full blood -Fullblood X number of generations -Pure blood Muggles are muggles plain and simple. Half blood Muggles are the non- magical children of a Wizard and a muggle. Squibs are children of two magical parents that do not have any magical power but Wizard blood whether pure or not. Muggle borns are the children of two muggles who have Wizard power but no Wizard blood. A half blood is the child of a Muggle and a Wizard that has Wizard power but also it seems to be the child of a (at least full blood) Wizard and a Muggle born. Full blood is a Wizard with Muggle blood but the connection is some number of generations back. A pure blood is a Wizard with wizard blood for so many generations or more. It seems to me that Slytherin would accept anyone including and over the halfblood mark. I do sometimes wonder whether every pure blood that steps up to be sorted is desperately wanted by the house of Slytherin just to add a little variety for the inbreeds. Amy who apologises if none of the above made sense at all, she just needed to get it out of her system From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 18:28:08 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:28:08 -0000 Subject: Generation Parallels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78603 I've been reading through the posts, and a thought struck me. Now this probably has been discussed to death, but being relatively new to this, I find it hard to search the posts. The sheer volume is daunting. My thought is this... Don't you think there is a nice balance to JKR's story. I mean we have the current trio; Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then there is the trio of the past; James, Remus, and Sirius. Draco is Harry's nemisis, Snape was James. There is Wormtail, the bumbler, and Nevile, his modern counterpart. Can anyone think of anymore? And how do these parallels relate to the story? Are there clues here as to what will happen? IMHO, and I did post this in the past; though to find my post is difficult; if JKR is seeking to balance the story, we find Harry in a loveless home environment at the beginning of his saga. To make the scales equal, don't you think he should end up part of the Weasly family (I know some of you SHIPpers, disagree) by being with Ginny? D - an optomist at heart, if ever there was one. From lbiles at flash.net Sun Aug 24 18:33:15 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:33:15 -0000 Subject: What is Lily's big revelation in Book 5??? Help! In-Reply-To: <20030819163043.550.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78604 > --- ghinghapuss wrote: > > What is the `something' we find out about Lily in book 5? Her hating James Potter? --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > I like the forced marriage theme. > Chris I know I have snipped a lot here -- possibly too much -- but I mainly want to touch on the forced marriage bit in this thread. What we see in the pensieve scene is a picture of animosity between two teenagers of the opposite sex. James is being a stupid git bully and Lily has the guts to stand up to him (even though she is obviously not fond of Snape either). This could be our important bit of info from book 5 -- the fact that her beliefs are strong enough for her to put aside personal feelings that may contradict them, the mark of a strong and moral person indeed. But I digress. The fact that Lily and James have an antagonistic relationship at this point in their lives does not preclude them forming a meaningful relationship later on. In fact, who's to say that throwing jinxes and hexes in the hallways is not the WW equivalent of pulling someone's pigtails or some other such childish nonsense just to get noticed. I think the notion of an arranged marriage or a marriage for any reason other than love defeats the theme of "Love" in the book. The locked room in the department of mysteries is assumed to contain love. In the 1st book LV couldn't touch Harry because his mother's love was in his veins. DD has hinted that it is Harry's capacity to love that will be his edge up over LV. Having Harry be the product of a marriage borne not of love but necessity detracts from and lessens this theme. This doesn't quite seem as well formed or thought out on paper as it does in my head but it will have to do. leb -- who has been very happily married for many years to her soulmate who she hated passionately at age 19 (many, many years ago!) From dumbledore818 at aol.com Sat Aug 23 19:21:47 2003 From: dumbledore818 at aol.com (biglou4171) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 19:21:47 -0000 Subject: Predicting the future, Trelawney style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78605 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "eligro2000" wrote: Bring it on ... 6. Draco: Drawn to the light side, a la Snape. Reluctant and pissy, but ultimately a good egg (scrambled, not poached). EVIDENCE: Just a hunch. With Lucius haranguing Draco for his lack of success and now in prison ... Parental resentment can go a long way. Also, OOP foreshadowing notes that at least one Slytherin will have to help. I think Draco's pretty much settled in as a future Death Eater, present Death Nibbler. If anyone were to bring him to the side of light it would be Snape but I doubt it. As for a good guy Slytherin, how about Theodore Nott? He's been sorta quiet lately... From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 24 19:08:50 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:08:50 +0100 Subject: TBAY: Kirstini's big Theorising Adventure Message-ID: <657A4846-D666-11D7-9AF2-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78606 I'm not absolutely sure that this post belongs under this subject, but what the hell. There have a spate of good thoughtful posts with different titles over the last couple of days and a theme that seems to link them is moral relativism. I always look forward to a good TBAY, gets the juices stirred, look for loopholes, false canon deserving of a yellow flag etc. - all that good stuff. This one caused me to raise one eyebrow - slowly. I've no problem with the premise of the blurring of moral boundaries dividing good from bad with a symphony of greys taking over from moral certainties. What did surprise me was that Kirstini considered it to be a fairly recent phenomenon. I think it's been there from Book 1, chap. 1. It just wasn't restricted to individuals. The moral relativism that Kirstini et al explore in some detail is just the icing on the cake; a final flourish on the top of a morally muddy confection. I've always been of the opinion that the books have never had a cut and dried moral divide outside Harry's limited teenage view. It also goes much further than any of the individuals that we have enjoyed dissecting and theorising about. The whole concept of WW and Muggledom is an exercise in double standards and dubious tenets. Consider, what is DD's first action? To drop a WW cuckoo into a Muggle nest. It doesn't matter that it's unwelcome, inconvenient or unreasonable, the WW has its agenda and Muggles are there to be used and abused. The unwritten thread that winds its way unbroken through the books is that Muggles are the unconsidered lumpen proletariat, with no say, no worthwhile opinion and are to be abused, patronised or laughed at as is appropriate. The need to enact a Muggle Protection Act should tell you all you need to know. The WW sees itself as an elite, a patronising elite, a possibly dangerous elite, who regard Muggle laws or norms as totally irrelevant to their lives or behaviour even though they live within the society of Muggles. The point that Bluesqueak makes (78547) regarding the parallels between Anglo - Indian society and Pureblood/Mudblood social tensions is only part of the story. There is no need for a Mudblood Protection Act - they can look after themselves if need be, for they too have powers. If Mudblood is a deadly insult, the contamination of Wizarding blood by Muggle blood, where does that place Muggles in the hierarchy of the acceptable? At the bottom of course. Remember the Muggles we've met so far: The Dursleys. Unsympathetic characters, to be imposed upon and laughed at when they are unable to cope with powers they cannot comprehend. Their function, quite clearly stated at the end of OoP - look after Harry, or else! Any consideration of their feelings or agenda is brushed aside as of no consequence. Aunt Vi; another unsympathetic character. Inflated because Harry got upset. Mr & Mrs Mason; (the Muggles invited to dinner in CoS), smothered in cake. 13 passers-by; murdered by Pettigrew in a deception ploy. Frank Bryce; murdered; a bit like putting down an old watchdog past his best. Mr Roberts and family; mentally and physically abused at the Quidditch World Cup and not just by DEs. Not one sympathetic or 'strong' personality in the lot. And Malfoy treated Dobby better than the way he wants to treat Muggles. Arthur Weasleys' fascination may be well meant, but you just know he'd love to put the Graingers under the microscope. Just like any animal behaviourist studying chimpanzees "Oh look! they can do that! It's almost as if they were human!" Add on any number of magical 'jokes', from regurgitating toilets to nose clamping sugar tongs and you begin to get the impression that if the WW had its way, Muggles would be better of in protected enclaves. What does Harry think of Muggles? We assume he was glad to escape from their world, to become something special. That showed in The Hut on the Rock. Does he now consider Muggles an irritating irrelevance? I'm sensible that in fiction just about anything goes, but this is beginning to show signs of deliberate type casting, that to be a non-wizard is to be an untouchable. The rules of morality don't apply if you're a Muggle. In my fervid imagination the HP series is taking on overtones of the Thirty Years War. An inbred aristocratic elite, split between ideologies, swapping sides as convenience dictates, telling themselves that only their squabbles matter in the overall scheme of things. Humph! I hope the tone eventually changes for the better. Kneasy From urghiggi at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 19:21:36 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:21:36 -0000 Subject: Heir of whom??? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78607 Re the whole 'HP as heir of Slytherin' theory -- it would be fun -- really, it's a charming theory, esp if Harry could be heir to both Slytherin and Griffyndor and then have to make some kind of choice, as previously proposed here. But I don't see how it can be correct. In the famous scholastic.com online interview of 10/16/2000, someone from HPfG and JKR had this exchange: Q. Harry Potter for grownups again! Is Voldemort the last remaining ancestor of Slytherin, or the last remaining descendent of Slytherin? A. Ah, you spotted the deliberate error. Yes, it should read "descendent." That's been changed in subsequent editions. (Keep hold of the "ancestor" one, maybe it'll be valuable one day!) (here's the link to the interview -- it's also the one in which she confirmed that Lily P was in Griffyndor, not Slytherin, green eyes not withstanding: http:// www.scholastic.com/harrypotter/author/transcript2.htm) I think in her answer on the descendant/ancestor question, above, you have to read the phrase "deliberate error" as ironic -- the wry acknowledgement of a writer that there's been a screwup. The rest of the quote, IMHO, doesn't mean the "ancestor" idea is valuable -- it means the defective COPIES might be valuable, as defective postage stamps and coins can be valuable. In other words, it's a joke. I know we all pore over every word of JKR's published work as gospel, looking for clues to her intentions -- but as a writer and editor, I also posess painful firsthand knowledge that no matter how smart the source and how thorough the editing, mistakes DO happen. The HPvFAQ stops a bit short of labeling this one as a FLINT, apparently since some editions do not appear to have been corrected. But I just can't see JKR letting publishers correct this in ANY later editions if it was not, truly, an error. And since the corrected quote calls LV the "last remaining descendant" of Slytherin. I don't see how Harry, too, could be a descendant. This seems to me to blow all the fun theories about a blood relationship between Salazar Slytherin & HP (and by extension, LV and HP) out of the water -- unless you're interpreting "descendant" in a strictly psychological (as opposed to geneological/ biological) fashion. But that's stretching it if you ask me. Re the "how could he open the chamber question" -- Harry didn't unseal the chamber; it was already opened by Ginny as possessed by LV. All he did was find the entrance, as far as I can tell, and then use his 'inoculated" Parseltongue skills to work the mechanism. Dumbledore does explain these issues pretty well at the end of CoS; I don't really see any reason not to buy his explanation. Now, the possibility of a blood relationship between Harry & Goderic Griffyndor does remain wide open, given the murkiness of the available info we have about James Potter's family, and Lily Evans' family as well. This seems not only possible but also plausible -- in part because JKR loves these "pairing" plot devices so much that it seems inevitable that the Heir of Slytherin will be balanced by an Heir of Gryffindor. But again, it's all conjecture in light of our lack of info at present. (Ah, lovely conjecture ... without it what would we all be doing w/our spare time :-) urghiggi, Chgo From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Sun Aug 24 19:30:29 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:30:29 -0000 Subject: Dragons, Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78608 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" wrote: > >> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "rubyxkelly" > > > Perhaps it isn't Harry's physical vision that is his > > weak point, but rather his (as yet) inability to look at > > things/people/events surrounding him in a less subjective way. > > In chapter nine > during the Quidditch game with Hufflepuff, Hermione uses a spell > which allows Harry's glasses to repel water. His glasses > are "impervious." Harry is then able to continue the game. > Unfortuantely, the dementors show up and Harry falls. Having > impervious vision ends up being his.......downfall. > > And I have no idea where to go with this. Anyone? ~snip~ Tj here: Well, When Hermione used impervious, so Harry could see to finish the game, but, it *didn't* matter that Harry could *see* the dementors. Harry could feel (hear) them... the screaming in his head. He didn't need to see the dementors to FEEL their presence. And Lily's eyes...is an intersting post. But, no one has brought up the one thing (the first thing) I think of when they refer to "lily's eyes" all the time. The EYES are the window to the soul. Harry and Lily are bonded, at their souls. Harry *looks* like his dad... but deep down in his soul, he is like his mother. Compassionate, loving, willing to fight for someone, even when H/L don't know who they are: (ie, Harry, for Fleur's little sister, Lily for Snape). They are also willing to give second chances, (Harry to Ron, Lily to James). Well, just tossing this into the fire... ta .. Tj From eowynn_24 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 06:35:33 2003 From: eowynn_24 at yahoo.com (eowynn_24) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 23:35:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030824063533.88208.qmail@web20501.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78609 ghinghapuss wrote: BubbaQRib said: Has there been any evidence to say that Harry is not the heir of Slytherin? Now me: Some of this was discussed in the thread "Is Lily Voldemort's Daughter?" You might want to read those. Mandy Eowynn: As I mentioned in a previous post about Lily being related to SS, making harry the heir, I don't believe that it is possible, and I am not sure how people started this thread. If it was just based on the color of Lily's eyes, IMO, that isn't enough proof. There are a lot of people with green eyes at Hogwarts, and they aren't all in Slytherin. Anyways I do have some canon to say that the last heir to SS was LV (aka Tom Riddle) CoS pg 332 US edition: ..." You can speak Parseltongue, Harry...because Lord Voldemort- who is the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin- can speak Parseltongue..." So can anyone please explain to me how we got the idea that Lily was an heir? I believe that the connection between eye color with her and Harry will be very important, but perhaps something that should be discussed on a different thread. I believe that I will stick with the canon on this one. Eowynn ( who probably tends to take things too literally.) Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ilojika at yahoo.es Sun Aug 24 10:28:01 2003 From: ilojika at yahoo.es (ilojika) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 10:28:01 -0000 Subject: the third DE Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78610 Hi I?m sorry if this has been discussed before but: In GoF, at the cementery, LV talks about three dead DE who "died at his service". We know the names of two of them from Sirius, they are Rosier and Wilkes. Rosier is also mentioned during Karkaroff?s trial. But, who is the third one? I mean, why did JKR bother telling us the names of two of them and not the last one?s? The nameless one might have been Regulus Black. But it?s strange that LV said that he died at his service because it was quite the contrary. Possible explanations: 1 - LV doesn?t want his DE to know that leaving him means death. The only ones who know the reasons of Regulus?s death are LV and the DE that killed him. The others think that he died at LV?s service. 2 - Regulus was a true DE and died at LV?s service. After all, Sirius had left home and he couldn?t know what was on his brother?s mind. Possibly Regulus wasn?t talking to him at all, even if they met at school. Sirius isn?t 100% certain of the identity of his brother?s murderer. He just guesses. And if my brother had been a DE, I would have preferred to think of him as a "good" DE. 3 - On the other hand, the third dead DE might have not been Regulus. LV referred to someone else, whose identity can be (or not) important to the story later on. I?m thinking about the Perseus Evans theory and so on. Anyway, I think there?s something here. Ilojika From evilshelly at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 11:31:26 2003 From: evilshelly at yahoo.com (evilshelly) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 11:31:26 -0000 Subject: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination In-Reply-To: <06f701c369e8$a81910d0$43c50c0c@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78611 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamee Livingston" wrote: > For a while, I've been trying to figure out what Voldemort's ultimate goals are, and if they're just about personal immortality and general destruction, why on earth someone like Lucius Malfoy, who seems intent on power and position, would follow him. I know someone said recently that probably Lucius looks on Voldemort as a means to his own ends, and I think that's very likely. So what has Voldemort to offer Lucius beyond the not too attractive "obey me or die" directive, that Lucius can't accomplish within Wizarding World politics? > I just came across this message as I was trying to check if the question I was about to ask had already been discussed, and found that the two issues seem to tie in with each other quite nicely. If this has already come up, just ignore me, give me a slap on the wrist and point me in the direction of any relevant posts, and I promise I won't bother you guys again. I was wondering - what exactly was Lucius trying to achieve by giving Tom Riddle's diary to Ginny? Was it his own idea, or was he perhaps somehow receiving [or had in the past received] orders from Voldemort? Would the 'current' Voldemort - weak and almost powerless - not have been rather put out with having his 16-year-old self competing with him? I had the impression that serving Voldemort had been a bit of an inconvenience for Lucius - he just doesn't strike me as the grovelling type, and of course he never tried to find his old master. Were his actions in 'the Chamber of Secrets' an attempt to bring back a Voldemort indebted to him, to guarantee himself a position of greater power this time round? also wrote: > What I see Lucius desiring is for control of the WW followed by the conquest of muggles and a world ruled by a wizard elite with himself preferably at the head or at least the power behind the throne. > Indeed. Tamee: I apologise for hijacking your post, I hope this makes sense to you. From bakanarie at hotmail.com Sun Aug 24 14:58:14 2003 From: bakanarie at hotmail.com (narie) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:58:14 -0000 Subject: Narcissa (and Draco) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78612 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Doriane" wrote: (liberally snipped.) scooting2win: "We have not seen enough of Narcissa to really make a judgement in this manner," Del: "Quite true. Very very little canon concerning Narcissa." Me: Ah, but what there is does seem to indicate that Narcissa is not exactly a spineless, submissive wench. Well, I like to think that, anyhow. scooting2win: "She is agreeing to raise Draco to be a little Death Eater," Del: "We don't even know that. Maybe she doesn't want that. Maybe Lucius put her under an Imperius curse." Me: Imperius-controlled Narcissa doesn't sit well with me for a couple of reasons, the first one being the nature of the Black family ? from what we saw in OotP, the Black family is a definitely dark family - "Harry's bewilderment deepened with every step he took. What on earth were they doing in a house that looked as though it belonged to the Darkest of wizards?" (OotP, pg 60, UK hc) ? and while you could argue that Narcissa, like Sirius and Andromeda, could be the case of a Light wizard in a predominantly Dark family (the Blacks strike me as being yet another case of the whole... deterministic nomenclature system JKR has got going), I don't think it's all that likely... After all, in OotP we saw that Kreacher loathes Sirius and will not obey Tonks, who is a direct descendant of the Black family - both these characters are anti-LV wizards. However, "Kreacher seized his opportunity shortly before Christmas... He went to the only Black family member for whom he had any respect left... Black's cousin Narcissa, sister of Bellatrix and wife of Lucius Malfoy." (OotP, pg 731, UK hc) I don't really think JKR would have chosen to remind us of her relationship to Bellatrix if she wanted us to think that Narcissa is a submissive trophy wife, especially given Bellatrix's own character and what she has just done. I like to think much more along the lines of Narcissa being evil, and while perhaps she does not have her own fully-fledged agenda, not all her aims are equal to Lucius's own. After all, she did insist that Draco attend Hogwarts, as opposed to being sent to Durmstrang, like Lucius wanted (would provide quote, but my GoF is currently in a box in Chicago, and I am most certainly not). Note that Draco said something about his mother insisting on this happening, not Lucius doing it for Narcissa's sake. As far as I'm concerned, in order to achieve that she must either have whined quite a lot, in order for Lucius to acquiesce to her, or simply been forceful and resolute about it from day one. I prefer the latter option, but that could just be me. Plus, I find it very hard to believe that Kreacher would have respected her if she were anti LV ? in this case Lucius would perhaps control her under the Imperius curse, but Kreacher would have been aware, prior to their marriage, of Narcissa's beliefs and thus treated her like he did with Sirius. scooting2win: "I do not believe that Draco will become a Death Eater, even though JKR is pointing in that direction. Maybe something will change in Draco by the 7th book making us all look or feel like damn we should have got that one. Maybe Draco will fall in love with someone who makes him act right. JKR told us we are liking Draco more then we should. But I don't think it's because he is going to become a Death Eater, I think it's because he is too self centered to try to ruin his pretty looks. And I think he gets that from Narcissa. Del: "Huh-huh. I'm not terribly convinced, but then I'm not convinced by JKR's treatment of Draco, Crabbe and Goyle anyway. Seems to me like she needed them in the previous books, but now that the serious stuff is going on, she doesn't know what to do with them. Me: I'm not buying into reformed Draco at all, at any point, and especially not after book 5 and his "You're dead, Potter" (OotP, pg 749, UK hc). I don't really presume to know whether he wants to be a DE or not, but he certainly seems to hold his father (or if not, his family's honor) rather highly, as his "I'm going to make you pay for what you've done to my father..." (OotP, pg 750, UK hc) shows. Apologies if this has already been said ? I read and reply from the Yahoo digests, which means I usually lag far behind the list. narie. First post, woo! From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 24 20:32:14 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:32:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's Power In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78613 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sephora063" wrote: > "Doriane" wrote: > To paraphrase: > Hope would be the worst feeling people can > feel, because it keeps them fighting against him, no matter how > powerful he gets. > > Sephora: > Hi, > I thought your post was great and very insightful. Somehow, I like > this theory better than the love theory, but they are related. > Interesting enough, Chapter 13 of Corinthians I is the Love Chapter. > I think everyone has a pretty good idea of what it says. It lists > the many qualities of love. However, I think the final verse says: > And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest > of these is love. I have no idea what JKR intends, but I do enjoy > that there are many possibilities. I think that it might be related > to these three qualities. > One way that I can think that love can be awful is when the love is > unrequited. When love goes bad, all hell breaks loose. Seriously. I > guess this could bring up the question of whether there is such a > thing as good love or bad love. Love is an emotion, but it can bring > about good or bad actions. Perhaps we must diferentiate between > christian love (as in the Biblical text) and secular love. Geoff: (Can I first say that I am not sending from my usual email address as I am on a long weekend in South Wales and accessing the group via a friend's computer. If anyone wants to dusagree or agree privately, as has happened in the past, please use my uusal ontact address. Re love: CS Lewis wrote a book called "The Four Loves" in which he identified "agape" (Christian love), "eros" (sexual love), "philos" (love of friends I think) and I think the other (whose Greek name escapes me) is the sort of "clubbable" re;ationship that a group of guys together might have - shared interests etc. I have commented on 1 Corinthians 13 previously. On the subject of "hope", this of course is commented a lot in the New Testament and Christoians are told, for instance, to be prepared to give a reason for "The hope that is in you". I realise that love is defined as the greatest but the three (including faith) are given as being needful - this may perhaps be another thread (no pun intended) in the development of Harry's character. From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Sun Aug 24 20:37:15 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:37:15 -0000 Subject: Shipping H/G was Generation Parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78614 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: My thought is this... > Don't you think there is a nice balance to JKR's story. I mean we > have the current trio; Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then there is the > trio of the past; James, Remus, and Sirius. Draco is Harry's > nemisis, Snape was James. There is Wormtail, the bumbler, and > Nevile, his modern counterpart. Can anyone think of anymore? And how do these parallels relate to > the story? Are there clues here as to what will happen? > IMHO, and I did post this in the past; though to find my post is > difficult; if JKR is seeking to balance the story, we find Harry in a > loveless home environment at the beginning of his saga. To make the > scales equal, don't you think he should end up part of the Weasly > family (I know some of you SHIPpers, disagree) by being with Ginny? > Hi D- Well, I must agree. I guess I want Harry to be with Ginny for just that reason. I want Harry to have a family. Because that is what Harry wants most in the world. While Ron includes Harry and Ron's family *love* Harry he still feels left out sometimes. (like when Ron forgets to tell Harry he is invited for the Holidays). But, who knows were JKR is going to taking the ships in books 6 and 7. I am hoping the books are not *too* long a wait. ta .. Tj From estesrandy at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 20:47:30 2003 From: estesrandy at yahoo.com (Randy) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 20:47:30 -0000 Subject: Indoor Quidditch Match Results (OT) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78615 Ladies and Gentlemen, I just wanted to inform you of the results of the first match sanctioned by the Lakeland Indoor Quidditch Association (LIQA) held today August 24 at 1:30 pm (EST) at Gymnastics Ect. Griffindor Team led by Brian Estes won two games, and Hufflepuff, led by Steven Estes, won one game. A small celebration followed the event which also honored Brian's 10th birthday which occurred earlier this month. The games were held without any brooms do to the lack of suitable broom flying contestants. LIQA altered the game slightly from the HP books, we forced players to dribble the quaffle like a basketball and bounce pass to team mates. Parents stood on the sidelines throwing bludgers (black nerf balls) at the kids and occasionally yelling "Snitch" and tossing one of the yellow snitch balls into the air. Despite little practice time (to the dismay of Oliver Wood watching from the sidelines), both teams played well. The beaters ran around with nerf bats protecting their team from the bludgers. Everyone had a great time and no injuries were recorded. Thanks to the Orlando Indoor Quidditch Association and HP Educational Fanon for making the quidditch equipment available for the event. RED EYE RANDY reporting from Lakeland, Florida. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 24 07:23:16 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:23:16 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SPEW how do you do ? (was Re: SOCKS and other presents) References: Message-ID: <3F4867E4.6010409@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78616 david_p2002ca wrote: > > Hermione's targets were the elves who were still bound to Hogwarts - > those who had not yet been freed. It does raise an interesting > question, though: could a student free a house elf, or would it > require a prefect, professor or even the headmaster - a person in > authority at the school - to release a house elf? I don't think it matters, as far as the house-elfs are concerned. Imagine you are a house-elf who does not want to be free. Further imagine that someone is trying to trick you into taking some clothes in order to free you. Do you take the clothes because you think the person doesn't have the authority to free you, or do you decide not to risk the possibility that what you think is wrong, and leave the clothes? From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 24 21:09:12 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:09:12 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known in the END In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78617 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elizabeth1603" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > We all have to admit to ourselves that Harry isn't real in real life. Why do you > want him not to be real in fantasy either? > > Elli Geoff: None of our favourite book characters are real; that's what "fiction" means! Frodo Baggins is not real. Jane Eyre is not real. Shylock is not real. They may be based in part on real people but they themselves are not intrinsically real. That does not mean that we cannot treat them as real, to share in their experiences, to cheer for them, cry for them and hope against hope that things will work out for them. To use the idea of a dream is a cop out. I remember how angry my wife got when the Dallas incident occurred. I have my own "wishes" as to how HP will work out. In the event, it won't end the way I have wished but, if it does finish in a dream resolution, I shall feel that I have been the subject of a confidence trick to lure me through seven books to a disappointing conclusion. And, as someone pointed out recently, it would be a possible disaster to the younger readers of the books - for whom Harry was first introduced - as it would undermine the power of their imaginations which are such a valuable part of their development. PS Please note that I am not posting from my usual email address as I am away from home over the weekend. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 24 07:31:10 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:31:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let It Be Known References: Message-ID: <3F4869BE.4020201@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78618 severusbook4 wrote: > > ADD IN: > book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. Or something along the lines of Bierce's "Incident at Owl Creek Bridge". In that story, a man is being lynched. He begins to fall, but the rope breaks. He runs away and has some adventures. At the end of the story, it turns out that the rope didn't really break, and that he imagines the escape in the moments before he dies. So the infant Harry could have imagined his entire life in the time between when Voldemort points his wand at him, and the time the curse hits him. Highly unlikely, of course. Very highly unlikely. But it's not as big a cliche as the dream idea. From kkearney at students.miami.edu Sun Aug 24 21:14:39 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:14:39 -0000 Subject: Generation Parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78619 : > I've been reading through the posts, and a thought struck me. Now > this probably has been discussed to death...Don't you think there is a > nice balance to JKR's story. I mean we > have the current trio; Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then there is the > trio of the past; James, Remus, and Sirius. Draco is Harry's > nemisis, Snape was James. There is Wormtail, the bumbler, and > Nevile, his modern counterpart. > > Can anyone think of anymore? And how do these parallels relate to > the story? Are there clues here as to what will happen? See Abigail's recent post, #78098. She does a wonderful job discussing the apparent parallels you mentioned (which, yes, have been discussed to death, but rehashing old topics often leads to new ideas) as well as many others. From tms2 at mail.ptd.net Sun Aug 24 07:19:45 2003 From: tms2 at mail.ptd.net (T.M. Sommers) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 03:19:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: SOCKS and other presents References: Message-ID: <3F486711.3060900@mail.ptd.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78620 princesspeaette wrote: > AmanitaMuscaria wrote: > >>Agreed the disturbing lack of thought in that scene - Ron throwing >>Dobby the jumper from his mother, but also previous to that, Harry >>fishing out a pair of Uncle Vernon's old socks to give Dobby, >>because he hadn't thought to get Dobby a present.. >>I'm sure it's been brought up before, but in the light of >>the 'protection', is that the reason the Dursleys(read Petunia >>here?) send Harry _something_, whether it's a coathanger, 50p, or a >>tissue, as a present? Is the 'present' a reinforcement of the >>protection in some way? > > I think Ron just didn't want *another* maroon sweater. He didn't > think about all the time his mum put into it, just he didn't really > want it (teenagers are like that). And for someone who doesn't have > a lot of money to spend on things, the thanks he got from an > overjoyed Dobby were probably a very nice boost to his ego. I don't think Ron really disregarded Molly's feelings that much. I expect that if she knew what he did with the sweater, she would knit Dobby something of his very own for next Christmas. From lbiles at flash.net Sun Aug 24 21:30:52 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:30:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Tear In-Reply-To: <008901c36786$f2741bc0$f09ccdd1@RVotaw> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78621 > Buttercup wrote: >He DOES cry when he tells Harry why he didn't choose him as prefect, which is probably the last and least important thing on Harry's mind. "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > The tear wasn't from the "why Harry wasn't prefect issue" but from the "enough responsibility" part. Do you think that DD will try to atone for this by naming Harry as a prefect for the next year instead of Ron? If that happens it would cause a strain between the trio that they might not be able to overcome. leb From president0084 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 23 21:56:29 2003 From: president0084 at yahoo.com (president0084) Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 21:56:29 -0000 Subject: Free will In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78622 On several occasions Dumbledore has eluded and stated blatantly that it's the choice we make decide the out come. How could he make a statement so misleading to the pupils, for it is obvious Dumbledore believes in freewill. One must not worry about venturing upon religion when reading Harry Potter for the overtones are there. Merlin is most famous for being mentor to King Arthur who in turn was extremely Christian and searched for the Holy Grail. Many have compared the bible to HP.(i.e. Dumbledore is God, Harry is Jesus and Voldy is Satan) and I think this is true, Harry must sacrifice himself to defeat Voldermort, it is the only way to finish the series, because J.K. has stated many times she doesn't wanted her life over run because of HP. Rowling I presume is in the Presbyterian church or Church of England which both follow a Protestant faith, either Calvin or Lutheran. Rowling has already allowed her ultra conservative view to seep into HP; why not her religion? J.K. Rowling is United Kingdom citizen were the majority religion is Protestant (Church of England, Anglican, Presbyterian). "president0084" From cookiemacster at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 06:45:43 2003 From: cookiemacster at yahoo.com (cookiemacster) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 06:45:43 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78623 Sue wrote: > > At the risk of throwing the cat among the pidgeons here, *evil grin*, I have to reply to the poster who said that Harry had never ever indicated that there might be a boy he was interested in, and disagree. Me: Goodness! You really are reading into things what you like. I'm not trying to sound rude, so if I come across as such, my bad! I'm not the sort of person who judges, or even really cares, about other people's sexual preferences. To each her/his own. (At school I have many friends that don't share in my "Oh I LOVE Orlando Bloom" -like feelings but are more likely to be heard saying that they think the girl behind me in US history is hot. So I don't have any issues with homosexuals. Just to straighten that out.) However, when I read this post it bothered me a little. All you people are doing is twisting Rowling's words to fit your theory. If I'm wrong I'm very sorry, but I remember the part of the book where Harry walks into the kitchen and sees Mr. Weasley and Bill a little differently. Bill draws Harry's attention purely because he is quickly attempting to hide something. If you were in such a situation this would be the same. Your attention doesn't go to a rock sitting in the woods, it goes to the bear coming at you. In the part where you said that Harry asks about what Bill's been up to and not Charlie or someone else, I remember that a little differently, as well. Percy's name was brought up, Harry was told about Percy's turn, then Harry asks about Bill. Harry doesn't get a chance to ask about Charlie because that is brought about when he asks about Bill. Once again I'm not trying to be rude or mean, but all you really seem to be doing is twisting Rowling's words. If I've offended you I'm sorry, it wasn't intentional. And if you're allowed to express your ideas here, than why am I not? NO OFFENCE! Yet another, little thought gone long! -Macy From davide.wolf at gte.net Sun Aug 24 14:04:16 2003 From: davide.wolf at gte.net (David Eric Wolf) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 14:04:16 -0000 Subject: Draco's Birthday Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78624 Does anyone know if Draco has a birthday mentioned in one of JKR's books? Harry's is Aug 31, 1980, Ron is March 1, 1980, Hermione's is Sep 19, 1980, aren't they? Please send Email as well as posting to this group to davide.wolf@ gte.net (remove space after @ ). Thank you all for your help. David From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 24 21:53:19 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:53:19 -0000 Subject: Clear case of attempted murder (was Snape the Iconoclast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78625 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" > wrote: > > Massive snippage of Snape stuff > > > So Snape could easily have seen it as a case of (pure-blood) > > Dumbledore sides with (pure-blood) Potter, Black and Lupin. Even > > given a clear case of attempted murder, entrapment, and a > > dangerous werewolf, the pure-bloods side with each other. > > Whatever views they spout. > > Marianne: > And, the canon showing definitively that the Prank was a clear > case of attempted murder is....where??? > In PoA. I'm talking about Snape's *viewpoint*, remember? Chapter 20, p.286, Snape: "Sirius Black showed he was capable of murder at the age of sixteen. You haven't forgotten that, Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill *me*?" [Author's emphasis] So Snape's viewpoint is that the Prank was attempted murder. Dumbledore disagrees with him - but as I said above, Snape could easily have seen this as 'pure bloods stick together'. Pip!Squeak From urghiggi at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 21:58:22 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:58:22 -0000 Subject: archives question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78626 Since it seems like every other post lately starts with an apology (e.g. "sorry if this has been discussed before, I tried to find, info, REALLY"), and copious offers to iron one's own hands, I thought I'd throw this question out for the moderators/elves. Once you've read all the faqs, taken a look at the files section, read the humongous bigfile thoroughly, and used the (IMHO) woefully inadequate "search" function in the messages index -- where else are you supposed to look to see old threads? The "search" function is not that useful -- and I know yahoo gives groups a limited amount of archiving space. With the volume of HPfGU, this has got to be exceeded frequently, causing old messages to be dropped from the easily searchable group. Is it necessary to go join all the separate archives groups (looks like there are 2 live ones now and one in the works for future archives) to see older posts? Case in point -- I wanted to get my mind around this whole Severus = Perseus discussion, but a search of the currently available messages was not very helpful, and certainly didn't point me efficiently to the originator of the anagram idea, or any threads that followed. I think most of us want to be responsible list members (and we want to avoid being -- horrors -- boring), but the available tools make it tough to do this. Suggestions? urghiggi, Chicago From Malady579 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 24 22:07:22 2003 From: Malady579 at hotmail.com (Melody) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:07:22 -0000 Subject: Snape the Iconoclast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78627 Pip wrote: > Tom Riddle, on the other hand, is *not* pure blood. Oh, he doesn't > tell people like Bellatrix that. But he can see people's memories ? > he would know that this was Snape's weakness. The pure-bloods stick > together. But you don't have to fear that from Lord Voldemort, > Severus, because I too am not pure blooded. I truly understand that > you can despise your filthy muggle ancestors. I can see Snape and Riddle finding a common interest. They both are brilliant in dark arts, and both hate their fathers. At least, I assume Snape does given the circumstances of his childhood. I wonder if Voldemort convinced or ordered Snape to kill his father as well as a token of his loyalty. I wonder if Snape did it. Abigail wrote: > > I think Snape's life was the same (in fact, I'm waiting to find > > out that the shouting man we see in Snape's memory is not his > > father but his uncle). Pip wrote: > I think the shouting man may well have been his father, simply > because it is much, much more difficult to dissociate yourself from > parents, even when they treat you badly. I kind of agree with Pip here, but really no matter the relation, a man is shouting at Snape's mother, and there is nothing Snape could do to stop him. I would expect this little boy to find what means he could to defend his mom. Might be why he knew so many curses coming into school. Might also be why Snape wants to teach DADA. He wants other abused children to have a fighting chance. It takes strength of heart and discipline to get over that kind of childhood. I see Snape as having both. (I really think I am starting to go soft on the guy...though Barty Jr. is still sexier to me. ::big grin::) Pip: > There is a second possibility, and that is that Severus Snape's > father was completely pure-blooded. But then he had a dalliance with > a witch who was not a pure blood (half-blood, maybe?). She was quite > suitable for that kind of thing, but then he got her pregnant . > > Well, we are talking about the 1950's or very early sixties. Even in > the muggle world, shotgun marriages still took place. And the > Wizarding World seems more old-fashioned than the muggle world ? > `marry the girl, or find a new job' could well have been the > response. > > And then little Severus would have been truly a screwed up kid. Like > Harry, despised because of his blood (only it's his father doing the > despising). Like Harry, his parents suffered because he was born. I really wonder how and why Snape shifted between. I agree with Abigail's and Pip's ideas, that the prank caused a rift between Snape and his ideals. Snape seems to respect life, at least now, so I wonder if Voldemort pushed him too far. I wonder if saying he needs to kill his dad was the last straw, and Snape, as much as he did hate him, could not do it. Or I wonder if Voldemort pushed him to do it, and he did, then felt so bad that he fled. He knew finally he had gone too far and that this was wrong. This was the line. Things like that change everything. Pip: > You can get very angry in that sort of situation. Angry enough to > want to change the world that did this to you. Or angry enough to kill your father. And have that be the goal all your childhood, but when the wand is in your hand and pointing at the thing you hate the most. He balked. He balked like Harry did. Melody From fredwaldrop at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 22:08:23 2003 From: fredwaldrop at yahoo.com (Fred Waldrop) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:08:23 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Tear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78628 "leb2323" wrote: Do you think that DD will try to atone for this by naming Harry as a prefect for the next year instead of Ron? If that happens it would cause a strain between the trio that they might not be able to overcome. ===================================================================== Hello all, Fred Waldrop here; Leb, to be honest, I really do not think DD will make Harry a Prefect in the 6th year. But, I do think, once more, he and his father will have something in common. According to Hagrid, in the SS, James and Lily were "Head Boy and Girl", yet we know that Lupin was Prefect, not James. So, I believe Ron will remain Prefect, but ultimately Harry will be Head boy. Just my opinion though Fred From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sun Aug 24 22:10:05 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 15:10:05 -0700 Subject: FILK - "Last Night" Message-ID: <410-22003802422105218@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78629 "Last Night" An OoP "Hogwarts Story" filk to "Tonight" from the movie "West Side Story." (Scene: HARRY sings in his his room at 12 Grimmauld Place, the night following the attack on Arthur Weasley. At the same time, VOLDEMORT sings in the Riddle family home). HARRY: Voldemort, he's the only thing I'll see forever. In my thoughts, in my mind, and in everything I dream. Makes me want to scream. Ever! VOLDEMORT: Now my mind is connected to Potter's. I can see through the eyes of young Potter. HARRY: Voldie, Voldie . . . VOLDEMORT: Always there, every thought that's in your head. You'll wish you were dead, you'll see. HARRY: Now, my scar's connecting him and me! Last night, last night, I had a dream last night, No, not a dream. I know it was real! VOLDEMORT: Last night, last night, I finally knew last night, That what he feels I also can feel! HARRY: At first, I was in the DA room, But then then everything shifted, And I was in that snake. VOLDEMORT: And there you were, Your thoughts and feelings now mine to take! Last Night! HARRY: Last night, last night, It all got worse last night. For I'm the weapon Voldemort needs. VOLDEMORT: Last night, last night, My dreams came true last night! All my plans are now sure to succeed! HARRY: He's there, I know it, I can feel it. Could misdirect my thoughts now, My anger could incite. BOTH: Our minds are one. We both became aware of this bond Last night! (HARRY lays down in his bed, and closes his eyes in preparation for sleep. VOLDEMORT, sensing Harry's descent into slumber, sings softly). VOLDEMORT: Goodnight, good night. Sleep ill, and when you dream, Dream of me. Tonight. :-) Enjoy! Please note, if you have a comment to make about this, please make it offlist, as I'm on webview right now, and could very easily miss a message posted to the group. Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From rvotaw at i-55.com Sun Aug 24 22:26:51 2003 From: rvotaw at i-55.com (Richelle Votaw) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:26:51 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Draco's Birthday References: Message-ID: <002101c36a8e$d1946710$999fcdd1@RVotaw> No: HPFGUIDX 78630 David wrote: > Does anyone know if Draco has a birthday mentioned in one of JKR's books? > Harry's is Aug 31, 1980, Ron is March 1, 1980, Hermione's is Sep 19, > 1980, aren't they? Draco's birthday has never been mentioned in any of the books, nor in any interview (known to me, at least). Harry's birthday is July 31st, though, not August 31st. Of course, Aug. 31st is my birthday, and I understand it's easy to get Harry and me mixed up. :) The other dates were all given by JKR in an interview, and the birth years were confirmed when she approved the timeline on the DVD for TMTMNBN2. The only other birthday I can think that we even have a hint at is Neville's, as we know he was born as the seventh month dies. Same day as Harry? Or just close? Unknown, I suppose. Though I have it set in my mind that they were both born very late at night on the night of July 31st, just before midnight. Richelle From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Sun Aug 24 22:50:36 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:50:36 -0000 Subject: Snape the Iconoclast In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78631 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Melody" wrote: > > I really wonder how and why Snape shifted between. I agree with > Abigail's and Pip's ideas, that the prank caused a rift between Snape > and his ideals. Snape seems to respect life, at least now, so I > wonder if Voldemort pushed him too far. I wonder if saying he needs > to kill his dad was the last straw, and Snape, as much as he did hate > him, could not do it. Or I wonder if Voldemort pushed him to do it, > and he did, then felt so bad that he fled. He knew finally he had > gone too far and that this was wrong. This was the line. Things like > that change everything. > > > Pip: > > You can get very angry in that sort of situation. Angry enough to > > want to change the world that did this to you. > > Or angry enough to kill your father. And have that be the goal all > your childhood, but when the wand is in your hand and pointing at the > thing you hate the most. He balked. > > He balked like Harry did. > > > Melody You know, I'm startin to think that the reason that Dumbledore trusts Snape goes like this: Snape made a choice that Dumbledore himself recognizes that if he were put in the same situation, he wouldn't make the same choice. Snape is ordered to kill his father, but chooses not to and tries to protect him. Simple as that. By now Dumbledore, through the use of legimency (sp), has seen how horrid Snape's childhood was and is finally beginning to empathize with Severus, maybe a certainly intense episode leaves DD shaken and angered at himself (but I'm being v.v.v.v hopeful). When DD finds out about Snape's task (through another spy, Severus couldn't have been the only one, just one of the better ones) and indirectly, Snape's choice (Snape Sr. is still walking around), I think he is a little gobsmacked and re- evaluates what he thought of Severus. I leave you with this quote from Chapter 23 of OOTP "A sallow-skinned, mournful-looking wizard lay in the bed opposite staring at the ceiling; he was mumbling to himself and seemed quite unaware of anything around him. " or, maybe not. Snape maybe prevented DD from making a mistake that he knows that he would have regretted to this day ( Not like those are in short supply though ; -) -SophineClaire From fc26det at aol.com Sun Aug 24 23:29:17 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:29:17 -0000 Subject: Query about Quidditch/Weird Sisters - music In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78632 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > one of the most common interests of Muggle children that age. I'd > think that students who grew up in Muggle families would really miss > familiar music once they get to Hogwarts. Or is that sort of thing > replaced by something more wizardish? There must be *something* - > doesn't Dumbledore say in his first speech at Hogwarts that music is > the greatest magic of all? > > Wanda I don't have my books handy but I do remember a reference to the Wizard Wireless. So I do beleive that they listen to a type of magical radio. Susan From zanelupin at yahoo.com Sun Aug 24 23:42:09 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:42:09 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78633 In post # 78611, evilshelly wrote: >>>I was wondering - what exactly was Lucius trying to achieve by giving Tom Riddle's diary to Ginny? Was it his own idea, or was he perhaps somehow receiving [or had in the past received] orders from Voldemort? I had the impression that serving Voldemort had been a bit of an inconvenience for Lucius - he just doesn't strike me as the grovelling type, and of course he never tried to find his old master. Were his actions in 'the Chamber of Secrets' an attempt to bring back a Voldemort indebted to him, to guarantee himself a position of greater power this time round?<<< I've wondered myself about Malfoy's motivations from time to time. I don't remember anything about it being posted recently, and I have yet to come close to reading all the posts in this group, so I can't point anything out to you. What I do have as a start is some canon from Chamber of Secrets to lend hopefully a little light on the subject. When Harry accidentally Floos into Flourish and Blotts, he ends up overhearing a conversation between Lucius Malfoy and Mr. Borgin. They're discussing recent Ministry raids. Borgin asks if the Ministry has visited the Malfoy home yet, to which Malfoy replies that they have not. And then he says, "There are rumors about a new Muggle Protection Act--no doubt that flea-bitten, Muggle-loving fool Arthur Weasley is behind it--" --CoS, US paperback 51. And then at the end of the book, Dumbledore is telling Malfoy that if Harry and Ron hadn't found the diary, Ginny would have been blamed for opening the Chamber. Dumbledore says, "The Weasleys are one of our most prominent pure-blood families. Imagine the effect on Arthur Weasley and his Muggle Protection Act, if his own daughter was discovered attacking and killing Muggle- borns...Very fortunate the diary was discovered, and Riddle's memories wiped from it." --CoS, US paperback 336. So it would appear that Lucius Malfoy's agenda was to discredit pro- muggle Arthur Weasley. But is that his only agenda? I wonder, too whether Malfoy really wanted Voldemort back. Did Lucius Malfoy know what the Diary would do? I mean, he obviously knew that sneaking the Diary to Ginny would give her the chance to intereact with Tom Riddle and allow him to force her to open the Chamber of Secrets. But was Malfoy aware that Tom Riddle would be able to move from mere mind- controlling memory to full-fledged Voldemort again? I think Lucius Malfoy is a careful and sneaky fellow in general so I am inclined to believe he did know what giving the Diary to Ginny Weasley would ultimately accomplish: The return of Voldemort? Not exactly. As evilshelly mentions above, Malfoy would love a Voldemort in his debt. It would give him even more power. And to expound on that idea, it would make Malfoy the one in charge. Perhaps he believes that this sixteen-year-old boy can be molded into whatever Lucius finds appropriate. I would imagine that even thoroughly muggle-hating sixteen-year-old Tom Riddle could still be influenced. After leaving Hogwarts, he went off to learn all he could about the Dark Arts. This Tom Riddle could do the same, only his good friend and mentor, Lucius Malfoy is there this time to give him a helping hand. Malfoy could set him on a similar path to the one he had before, aiding him in his goals, which have been theorized on recently. Let's look at some very heavily edited recent discussion on Voldemort and Lucius: Abigail said in post #78512: >>>Where does that leave Voldemort, or more accurately, the young Tom Riddle? He is neither pure-blood, nor wealthy, but he has developed a burning hatred of the world he leaves behind whenever he comes to Hogwarts. A different person might have chosen to climb the ladder. To play society's game. He does not choose to do this. Rather then navigate the currents of society until he reaches the top, Tom Riddle chooses to tear society itself down.<<< Catlady, in post #78548, said: >>>To me, Lucius desires power, and feels that there is no such thing as ENOUGH power. To me, Lucius believes that he is using Voldemort to get power for himself. I believe that Lucius signed on with Voldemort not because he viewed Voldemort as a strong leader to follow to that leader's victory, but because he viewed Voldemort as a strong horse that he could ride to his own victory.<<< These tie in nicely with the possible goal of Lucius Malfoy in bringing back the younger Tom Riddle rather than trying to actively trying to resurrect the not-quite-dead Lord Voldemort, who has outlived his usefulness to Malfoy. In the first war, as Catlady says, Malfoy wanted power and saw Voldemort as a means to getting at that power, nothing more. While he was a Death Eater, Malfoy's true loyalty was to himself. When baby Harry defeated Voldemort, Malfoy had no reason to want him back. If he'd had the younger Tom Riddle, though, he could have set him not on the destructive path of Lord Voldemort, bent on immortality and being feared by all, but instead on the alternative path that Abigail talks about in the small snippet above. Malfoy could see himself molding this brilliant young mind, with the same ideals that he holds himself, into one of the most powerful and influental wizards in the world. Society as Malfoy knows it would be safe, and he'd have a very powerful wizard in his pocket. Not to mention the satisfaction he'd probably take in knowing that he now controlled the man he'd once called "My Lord." Talk about power. Tamee in post # 78583: >>>What I see Lucius desiring is for control of the WW followed by the conquest of muggles and a world ruled by a wizard elite with himself preferably at the head or at least the power behind the throne.<<< I agree. This fits in nicely with this Lucius/Diary discussion. If the Diary plan had succeeded and Lucius had both discredited Arthur Weasley and brought back a new protege to aid him in his goals, he could have very well gained control of the WW and at least made it easier for like minded wizards to do what they want to muggles and muggle-borns. I suppose my only question to Lucius wanting Tom Riddle rather than Voldemort around would be what would Tom Riddle say when he learned about what Voldemort had done with his future? Would he then set himself again on a similar path regardless of Lucius Malfoy's influence? Would he immediately go after Harry Potter? Would that be wise. Ack, speculation on speculations! I'll stop there. This ended up about five times longer than I'd initially intended, and I'm not even sure I said all that I wanted to. I hope it makes a little sense, KathyK From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 24 23:42:32 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:42:32 -0000 Subject: Music and Wizarding Wireless / Lucius & Diary!Tom / 4 Loves Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78634 Wanda wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78591 : << The Weird Sisters make me wonder what else the WW does for music. And what about people who don't like modern music? Do wizards like Bach and Mozart? >> They have Celestina Warlock. She is very popular and recorded some Quidditch team's fight song; that's all we know about her style of music. I imagine it to be the Franl Sinatra / Barbara Streisand type. Dumbledore's Famous Wizard card in PS/SS says he likes chamber music, and the big book in which Hermione looked up Nicolas Flamel referred to him as 'noted alchemist and opera lover'. << And do they have some way of listening to music, as Muggles have recordings? >> Do they have a harp that plays itself or is that movie contamination? It does seem likely to me that they can have instruments that play themselves as a way of listening to instrumental music, but not the human voice. They have the Wizarding Wireless Network, which is a magic imitation of Muggle radio. It;s called "wizarding wireless" because British Muggles call radio "wireless". And wireless got that name because it followed telegraphy, which needs wires. They are music shows on WWN, as in Weasley kitchen in CoS, "Witching Hour, with the popular singing sorceress, Celestina Warbeck." Canon says that Harry was not familiar with the madly popular Weird Sisters because he didn't have access to Wizarding Wireless. That implies that no one has a Wizarding Wireless set available to the students at Hogwarts. That seems terribly unlikely to me, however if they DID have access to Wizarding Wireless at Hogwarts, the whole Quidditch team would cluster around it listening to professional and international matches being broadcast. Ffred replied in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78601 : << I wonder if the key to the WW and music is that they _make_ music rather than just consuming it, as we did in our world before the advent of radio/TV/video/MTV and all that stuff. Or possibly that they are going that way. There is a radio station which broadcasts music, there are the Weird Sisters, there is even Stubby Boardman (if you believe that that's a real person). >> I agree -- I believe that the wizarding folk have no recorded music, only live on wireless and live in person. The wizarding population is so small (I estimate 20,000 on the island of Britain) that they can frequently see their favorite performers live -- if the Weird Sisters play in a 2000 seat hall, the whole population could see them in 10 shows. And transportation/parking wouldn't be a problem, because of Apparation and Floo. However, the kids at Hogwarts only get out for a Hogsmeade weekend a couple of times a year, so they wouldn't be able to often go listen to music shows off-campus. They need to have shows at school more often than once a year at Halloween and once a century at Yule Ball of Triwizard Tournament. They also need to play their own music --- before OoP, I was constantly saying that Ron needs to learn to play guitar. It's a good way to pick up girls and would be an accomplishment that none of his brothers have shown so far. << Conversely, there's never any mention of music going on in any of the pubs, not even in the Leaky Cauldron when Harry was staying there in PoA: you'd think they'd have a piano in the corner or a session going on or _something_ >> Can we hope that that's just something that JKR forget to mention, as she so often forgets to mention Harry taking baths/showers and she used to forget to mention what Christmas gifts he gave Ron and Hermione, until people started to complain to her that he wasn't giving them gifts at all. She said, yes he was but she hadn't had space to mention it. evilshelly wrote: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78611 : <> When that question is asked, many people come up with the same answer you did, and expect LV to punish him for it. And some people think that it was just a little plot to discredit Arthur Weasley by turning his daughter into a Muggle-killer. I think Lucius was going to plant the diary in a random textbook on the shelf and let a random student be the victim, and only got the idea of planting it on Ginny Weasley after his fight with Arthur in the bookstore. I think he was following LV's instructions, altho' I don't know how LV sent instructions once Quirrell was dead. But he would have reckoned that his diary-self would take care of that irksome Potter boy who had interfered with his Quirrell-plan. And that he could 'possess' the body of his re-embodied diary-self, and keep it forever, because possession wouldn't damage it, because it was his own body. (However, possession would have killed the personality/mind of re-embodied diary-self, who would have resisted that outcome. Betcha LV didn't think of that.) Geoff Bannister wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78613 : << S Lewis wrote a book called "The Four Loves" in which he identified "agape" (Christian love), "eros" (sexual love), "philos" (love of friends I think) and I think the other (whose Greek name escapes me) is the sort of "clubbable" re;ationship that a group of guys together might have - shared interests etc. >> In previous discussions of the Four Loves, I seem to recall that the fourth was called "storge" and meant "family love". From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 25 00:32:55 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:32:55 -0000 Subject: Music and Wizarding Wireless / Lucius & Diary!Tom / 4 Loves In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78635 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > > I think he was following LV's instructions, altho' I don't know how > LV sent instructions once Quirrell was dead. Could Lucius perhaps have written in the diary himself, and discovered how it worked? Maybe he received instructions from the Tom Riddle in the diary - it's not perfectly clear to me that diary! Tom is confined to his own era. He seems to have a fair bit of knowledge about what happened in the years following the Basilisk episode, and it isn't explained how he found out all of the things he knows. I'm sure this has been discussed before, and of course, Ginny could have told him things. But I got the impression that he is almost a continuation of Voldemort's mind, and is somehow aware of what his non-diary self went on to do. "Voldemort is my past, present and future," is a line I come back to over and over - Voldemort seems almost to be a sort of anti-God, present at all times and in all places. Wanda From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 00:47:39 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:47:39 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78636 "jwcpgh" wrote: > > The alternative is that Remus would allow Harry to be put at risk > in > > order to save his own reputation, and that's too harsh for me. > "marinafrants" wrote: > I don't think it's his reputation he was trying to safeguard, but > the bond of friendship and trust he had with Dumbledore. Dumbledore > put a great deal of faith in Remus, both when he accepted him as a > student and when he took him on as a teacher. Remus has spent his > adult life alone, ostracized and mistrusted. I can totally > understand his inability to do anything that might jeopardize his to > a man he regards as a friend and mentor. > > Does this make him "morally deficient"? That's a really loaded > term, just like "cowardly" and "manipulative." They all make it > sound like I'm being much harsher on Remus than I really am. He has > done a number of things wrong, all due to a persistent weakness in > his character which he recognizes and regrets, but seems unable to > overcome. Despite this weakness, I do believe he's a decent and > compassionate man. Remarkably so, given the life he's lived. But > this doesn't absolve him of the responsibility to try and overcome > his weakness. It's not enough to feel bad when you've done > something wrong. You have to learn to refrain from doing it over > and over. Laura: Then would you (or anyone else reading this post) say that in OoP Remus is showing signs of being able to defeat this behavior? He has no reluctance to tell Sirius when he's out of line. I got the feeling that despite everything, DD still relies on Remus to act as de facto leader of the Order in DD's absence. So if indeed DD felt disappointed in the fact that Remus kept secrets from him, they seem to have resolved any tension that resulted between them. I'd also argue, in Remus's favor, that although in PoA he still hasn't brought himself to be completely forthright with DD (perhaps for Sirius's sake, which would mitigate the situation imo), he definitely seems to have realized that he acted wrongly toward Snape. His polite, even deferential behavior toward SS suggests that. Snape learned in PoA that Remus had nothing to do with the prank, but he chose to take his fury about Sirius's escape out on Remus anyhow. Yet in OoP, Remus doesn't show any lingering resentment toward Snape for costing him his job. Now whether Snape will ever acknowledge Remus's efforts at repentance is another question, but Remus does seem to be doing what he can in that area. From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 01:00:05 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:00:05 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78637 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Arya" wrote: Arya: > I think the importance of McG's era, is the fact that she was placed at 'a > sprightly 70ish' in a chat by JKR and we know CoS is 50 years after Riddle > was at Hogwarts--this makes McG and Riddle comtemporaries and very likely > to have been at Hogwarts for at some of the same years. > > It also means that McG, the current transfiguration teacher (and known > animagus) was more than likely taught transfiguration by Dumbledore (who > we know to have been Riddle's transfig teacher). Me: Let's look at ages - McG started teaching in 1946 (it is 1995 in OoP, she's been there 39 years). If she's in her 70's, then she was in her 30's when she started teaching at Hogwarts. LV was in his 5th year about 50 years before Harry was in his 2nd year, or about 1942/43. This means he graduated around 1945 - the same year Grindewald was defeated by Dumbledore. This also means he stepped right into the void left by Grindewald's defeat - how convenient. It looks like he was not taught by McG at all, as she arrived just after he graduated. Since she was in her 30's she was also not there as a student with him. I think her presence at Hogwarts for 39 years is a clue that Dumbledore was no longer Transfiguration teacher in 1946 because he became headmaster - and there must be some importance to that. Melinda From Zarleycat at aol.com Mon Aug 25 01:14:14 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:14:14 -0000 Subject: Clear case of attempted murder (was Snape the Iconoclast) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78638 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "kiricat2001" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" > > wrote: > > > > Massive snippage of Snape stuff > > > > > So Snape could easily have seen it as a case of (pure-blood) > > > Dumbledore sides with (pure-blood) Potter, Black and Lupin. Even > > > given a clear case of attempted murder, entrapment, and a > > > dangerous werewolf, the pure-bloods side with each other. > > > Whatever views they spout. > > > > Marianne: > > And, the canon showing definitively that the Prank was a clear > > case of attempted murder is....where??? > > > > In PoA. I'm talking about Snape's *viewpoint*, remember? > > Chapter 20, p.286, Snape: "Sirius Black showed he was capable of > murder at the age of sixteen. You haven't forgotten that, > Headmaster? You haven't forgotten that he once tried to kill *me*?" > [Author's emphasis] > > So Snape's viewpoint is that the Prank was attempted murder. > > Dumbledore disagrees with him - but as I said above, Snape could > easily have seen this as 'pure bloods stick together'. > > Pip!Squeak Got it. My initial reading of your post (probably too quickly as I'm trying like a crazy person to keep up with everything) made it seem as if you were stating as canon fact that murder was indeed on Sirius' mind. Marianne From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 01:28:07 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:28:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] From Muggleborn to Pure Blood Message-ID: <6d.17c62a52.2c7ac027@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78639 In a message dated 8/24/2003 2:20:31 PM Eastern Standard Time, amy_marblefeet at yahoo.co.uk writes: It is not clear from the books that Voldemort was in Slytherin, but for the sake of argument and the fact that he is Salazars descendent/ancestor lets assume that he is for the moment. Actually, I can do better for you :) It is canon that Riddle was in Slytherin. In SS/PS in ch 5 when Harry and Hagrid are talking after Harry met Malfoy at Madam Malkins: "'Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin,' said Hagrid darkly. 'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You-Know-Who was one.'" And Hagrid would know :) ~RSFJenny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 25 02:03:13 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:03:13 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78640 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > > this doesn't absolve [Remus] of the responsibility to try and overcome > > his weakness. It's not enough to feel bad when you've done > > something wrong. You have to learn to refrain from doing it over > > and over. > > Laura: > > Then would you (or anyone else reading this post) say that in OoP > Remus is showing signs of being able to defeat this behavior? He has > no reluctance to tell Sirius when he's out of line. I don't think Remus was really tested in OOP, not enough for us to answer that question. Yes, in ordinary day-to-day interactions with people, he the adult Remus seems more willing to speak up than the young Remus was. But at no point in OOP did we see him in a situation where the choice between speaking up and staying silent could make or break a relationship. Yeah, he's willing to tell Sirius to shut it when Sirius gets snippy, but their dynamic is very different now than it was back in their Hogwarts days. Now it's Sirius who's isolated, desperate and grasping at any human contact. The consequences for speaking up are no longer the same. And as I said before, Remus has become much better at judging people and at getting them to respond to him in the way he wishes. Here's something to consider: was Remus aware of the damaging effect that confinement at 12 Grimmauld Place was having on Sirius' mental state? If he did, why didn't he confront Dumbledore about it? I'd also > argue, in Remus's favor, that although in PoA he still hasn't brought > himself to be completely forthright with DD (perhaps for Sirius's > sake, which would mitigate the situation imo), he definitely seems to > have realized that he acted wrongly toward Snape. His polite, even > deferential behavior toward SS suggests that. Remus was consistently polite and deferential toward Snape throughout PoA, too. Polite and deferential appears to be Remus' default manner toward everyone, his shield against the world that's just looking for an excuse to brand him a monster even when he's in human form. Note that when he drops that pleasant manner, it's always deliberate, and always produces the effect he wants to produce. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 02:01:56 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:01:56 -0000 Subject: WW knowledge of Voldemort WAS Re: [HPforGrownups] From Muggleborn to Pure Blood Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78641 Something's been bothering me, not a big deal, but I just have to post it so I can stop thinking about it. RSF Jenny wrote- It is canon that Riddle was in Slytherin. In SS/PS in ch 5 when Harry and Hagrid are talking after Harry met Malfoy at Madam Malkins: "'Better Hufflepuff than Slytherin,' said Hagrid darkly. 'There's not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin. You- Know-Who was one.'" Now me- If no one knows Voldemort's true identity (except Dumbledore and Harry) then why does Hagrid say Voldemort was in Slythrin? I'm sure he's just assuming Voldemort was in Slytherin, I mean it's not like he could have been in Hufflepuff... But, the fact Dumbledore has said only he and Harry know who Voldemort truly is, and he transformed *after* graduating from Hogwarts, why would anyone other than Harry and Dumbledore mention which house he belonged to as if they knew it to be a fact? Is this a fluke on JKR's part, or did I miss something? Anyway, with that said, I don't believe Voldemort was in Slytherin because Hagrid said it, but for the obvious reasons. -Maritza From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 02:16:28 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:16:28 -0000 Subject: Staffing at Hogwarts/subjects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78642 Please forgive me if this has been discussed, but I did check the search facility... Are there any qualified teachers at Hogwarts? There are certainly some who are good at it - Flitwick, McGonagall, Sprout ... probably even Snape if he would stop picking on certain students - good teachers don't do that. But it seems to me that to get a teaching job at Hogwarts you don't need to have attended any wizards' teachers' college, you don't even have to have finished school. You just have to have some knowledge of the subject (unless you're Umbridge) and be the convenient one to hire at the time. Sybill Trelawney was allowed to mess up Divination for 16 years' worth of students just because of a prophecy lurking in her head, with the possibility of another one - so, DD couldn't just offer her a home, maybe make her library assistant (goodness knows, poor, hard-working Madam Pince could do with help, but that's a separate gripe from this school librarian)? DD has handed the very important job of DADA teacher to another disastrous person each year (except Lupin, but that also ended badly). And does anyone in the wizarding world ever get to study literature, history or music? There just doesn't seem to be room in the Hogwarts curriculum. Sue B From phoenixtears at fuse.net Mon Aug 25 02:25:55 2003 From: phoenixtears at fuse.net (phoenixmum) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:25:55 -0000 Subject: Who knows Voldemort's true identity? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78643 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "l3al3y_Doll_3" wrote: Something's been bothering me, not a big deal, but I just have to > post it so I can stop thinking about it. If no one knows Voldemort's true identity (except Dumbledore and Harry) then why does Hagrid say Voldemort was in Slythrin? ...-Maritz Reply: In the last chapter of Chamber of Secrets, Dumbledore tells Harry that "Very few people know that Lord Voldemort was once called Tom Riddle." I would expect that Hagrid, as one of the people that Dumbledore trusts, would be privy to this piece of information. As Hagrid went to Hogwarts around the same time as Tom, he would know which House Riddle/Voldemort was in. From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Mon Aug 25 02:25:07 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:25:07 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Grindelwald_(was_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78644 --- "meltowne" wrote: (snip) > --- "Arya" wrote: (snip) > > > > Dumbledore (who we know to have been Riddle's transfig teacher). > > > > > LV graduated around 1945 - the same year Grindewald was defeated > by Dumbledore. This also means he stepped right into the void > left by Grindewald's defeat - how convenient. > Melinda aussie says: Grindelwald has probably been discussed at length, but I can't find it. But let me point out 2 or 3 things. - Grindelwald was DEFEATED, he wasn't killed. - He was beaten by a full time Hogwarts teacher, not an Auror. (does that mean Grindelwald was recruiting aroung Hogwarts ... or used Salazar's Chamber of Secrets to instruct his protege(s)? - I agree that LV fears Dumbledore because of him beating Grindelwald, but not just because of hearsay. Tom was much closer to Grindelwald than that. More than just a blood relative. I mean as close as LV was to Quirrel in an effort to continue living. (In the end of PS/SS, Dumbledore said of LV, "He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share... not being truly alive, he cannot be killed.") - and if Grindelwald can cling to life, why not the source of the Drak Arts? SALAZAR SLYTHERIN himself. He would only need to live about 50% longer than Nicholas Flamel and, in CoS, Salazar was another who conspicuously wasn't pronounced dead. Rather, Binns said, "there was a serious argument on the subject between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school." Firenze (as all Centaurs) concerns himself with ages, not a decade. He was interrupted before he could answer Harry's question, "Do you mean that was Vol-?" in PS/SS (that section is quoted below - to be snipped in replies) Firenze may know that "VOLDEMORT" is not just the new name for TOM RIDDLE, but GRINDELWALD and SALAZAR SLYTHERIN as well. aussie_lol PS: Now that LV came back using Flesh and blood, there may be enough left of him to kill off for good ... unless he possesses Draco's body later. PPS: In interviews, JKR hoped that a main secret she was hiding wouldn't just be blurted out after planning and secrecy over so many years ... so I deleted this theory a few times before. Sorry Jo, if I told your punch line. Of course, I have other ideas I haven't spoken of yet. Those sub- plots could be kept for book 7, and you could kill off Voldemort in # 6 to really suprise everyone - hehehe. **************************** Delete below this line when replying: They made their way through the trees in silence for so long that Harry thought Firenze didn't want to talk to him anymore. They were passing through a particularly dense patch of trees, however, when Firenze suddenly stopped. "Harry Potter, do you know what unicorn blood is used for?" "No," said Harry, startled by the odd question. "We've only used the horn and tail hair in Potions." "That is because it is a monstrous thing, to slay a unicorn," said Firenze. "Only one who has nothing to lose, and everything to gain, would commit such a crime. The blood of a unicorn will keep you alive, even if you are an inch from death, but at a terrible price. You have slain something pure and defenseless to save yourself, and you will have but a half-life, a cursed life, from the moment the blood touches your lips." Harry stared at the back of Firenze's head, which was dappled silver in the moonlight. "But who'd be that desperate?" he wondered aloud. "If you're going to be cursed forever, deaths better, isn't it?" "It is," Firenze agreed, "unless all you need is to stay alive long enough to drink something else -- something that will bring you back to full strength and power -- something that will mean you can never die. Mr. Potter, do you know what is hidden in the school at this very moment?" "The Sorcerer's Stone! Of course -- the Elixir of Life! But I don't understand who --" "Can you think of nobody WHO HAS WAITED MANY YEARS TO RETURN TO POWER, who has clung to life, awaiting their chance?" *emphasis added* It was as though an iron fist had clenched suddenly around Harry's heart. Over the rustling of the trees, he seemed to hear once more what Hagrid had told him on the night they had met: "Some say he died. Codswallop, in my opinion. Dunno if he had enough human left in him to die." "Do you mean," Harry croaked, "that was Vol-" "Harry! Harry, are you all right?" Hermione was running toward them ... (PS/SS Chap 15) From greatraven at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 02:26:35 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:26:35 -0000 Subject: Staffing at Hogwarts/subjects Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78645 Please forgive me if this has been discussed, but I did check the search facility... Are there any qualified teachers at Hogwarts? There are certainly some who are good at it - Flitwick, McGonagall, Sprout ... probably even Snape if he would stop picking on certain students - good teachers don't do that. But it seems to me that to get a teaching job at Hogwarts you don't need to have attended any wizards' teachers' college, you don't even have to have finished school. You just have to have some knowledge of the subject (unless you're Umbridge) and be the convenient one to hire at the time. Sybill Trelawney was allowed to mess up Divination for 16 years' worth of students just because of a prophecy lurking in her head, with the possibility of another one - so, DD couldn't just offer her a home, maybe make her library assistant (goodness knows, poor, hard-working Madam Pince could do with help, but that's a separate gripe from this school librarian)? DD has handed the very important job of DADA teacher to another disastrous person each year (except Lupin, but that also ended badly). And does anyone in the wizarding world ever get to study literature, history or music? There just doesn't seem to be room in the Hogwarts curriculum. Sue B From featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 02:38:38 2003 From: featheringstonehaugh at yahoo.com (A Featheringstonehaugh) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Generational Parallels In-Reply-To: <1061760688.14882.64622.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030825023838.81324.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78646 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 18:28:08 -0000 From: "Donna" Subject: Generation Parallels My thought is this... Don't you think there is a nice balance to JKR's story. I mean we have the current trio; Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then there is the trio of the past; James, Remus, and Sirius. Draco is Harry's nemisis, Snape was James. There is Wormtail, the bumbler, and Nevile, his modern counterpart. I agree that JKR carries draws generational parallels, but I don't see Neville as the Wormtail counterpart. Wormtail is a hanger-on; he strikes me as a somewhat smarmy "yes man" who basks in the reflected popularity of James & Co. Neville, however, genuinely likes Harry, Ron & Hermione and they genuinely like him. He doesn't tag along in order to make himself look "good" but out of real friendhip and loyalty. AF ________________________________________________________________________ --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 02:49:16 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:49:16 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78647 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > > Here's something to consider: was Remus aware of the damaging effect > that confinement at 12 Grimmauld Place was having on Sirius' mental > state? If he did, why didn't he confront Dumbledore about it? Laura: Oh, no, something else that's Remus's fault...;-). We don't know that he didn't-such a scene wouldn't appear unless it was being related to Harry by someone else (or he overheard it), right? Actually, I don't think DD paid the least bit of attention to anyone's emotional state in OoP, which was a terrible mistake on his part. A little acknowledgement of Harry would have gone a long way toward calming Harry's anxiety, I think. And if Remus tried to talk to DD about Sirius (assuming Remus felt that something so screamingly obvious needed to be brought to DD's attention at all), I would bet that DD shut him down. DD just had too many larger problems on his hands to give his energy to relatively small ones like the emotional health of his allies. (I'd argue that in reality, they're equally significant problems, but DD doesn't seem to see it that way.) Remus himself, being at Grimmauld Place only sporadically himself, couldn't be the constant support that Sirius needed. > > Laura: > I'd also > > argue, in Remus's favor, that although in PoA he still hasn't > brought > > himself to be completely forthright with DD (perhaps for Sirius's > > sake, which would mitigate the situation imo), he definitely seems > to > > have realized that he acted wrongly toward Snape. His polite, > even > > deferential behavior toward SS suggests that. > Marina: > Remus was consistently polite and deferential toward Snape > throughout PoA, too. Polite and deferential appears to be Remus' > default manner toward everyone, his shield against the world that's > just looking for an excuse to brand him a monster even when he's in > human form. Note that when he drops that pleasant manner, it's > always deliberate, and always produces the effect he wants to > produce. Laura again: I think that Remus goes out of his way with Snape, though. He consistently refuses to let Snape bait him, despite Snape's continual efforts to do so. Sure, politeness can be a weapon (see Remus's interaction with the Dursleys at the end of OoP). But I really got the sense that he is paying extra attention to his relations with Severus. From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Aug 25 02:56:56 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 19:56:56 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] re: Generational Parallels In-Reply-To: <20030825023838.81324.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20030825023838.81324.qmail@web20504.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <98121652813.20030824195656@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78648 Hi, Sunday, August 24, 2003, 7:38:38 PM, A wrote: > Don't you think there is a nice balance to JKR's story. I mean we > have the current trio; Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then there is the > trio of the past; James, Remus, and Sirius. Draco is Harry's > nemisis, Snape was James. There is Wormtail, the bumbler, and > Nevile, his modern counterpart. Apart from seeing PP and Neville as very different, I also don't see much resemblance between the two "trios" and their nemesis. While James and Sirius appear to be aggressors toward Snape (as far as we can tell), Draco seems to be the one starting things with H/R/Her. Their personalities and relationships seem very different to me... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From phoenixtears at fuse.net Mon Aug 25 02:57:48 2003 From: phoenixtears at fuse.net (phoenixmum) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:57:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78649 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cookiemacster" wrote: (I paraphrase) that people who interpret incidents in the books to indicate that Harry is gay are twisting trivia to their own viewpoint. Reply: I agree. If it wasn't clear enough in POA and GOF, the whole "Cho" plotline in OOTP demonstrates Harry's interest in "girls." If people want to read about a gay person who does magic, I recommend the Last Herald-Mage trilogy by Mercedes Lackey (Magic's Pawn, Magic's Promise, and Magic's Price). Let JKR's characters be who and what she makes them. Phoenix From catlady at wicca.net Mon Aug 25 03:48:16 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 03:48:16 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78650 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melinda" wrote: > > Let's look at ages - McG started teaching in 1946 (it is 1995 in > OoP, she's been there 39 years) I want McG to have started teaching in 1946, right after the defeat of Grindelwald, but when I count on my fingers, 1995 minus 39 years keeps coming out 1956 (19*5*6) rather than 1946. > If she's in her 70's, then she was in her 30's when she started > teaching at Hogwarts. (snip) It looks like [Riddle] was not taught > by McG at all, as she arrived just after he graduated. Riddle was not taught by McG at all, as she started teaching ten years after he finished school. > Since she was in her 30's she was also not there as a student with > him. Being in her 30s in 1956 makes her in her 20s in 1946, and 16 in 1942 -- she may have been in the SAME YEAR as Riddle. From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 04:34:03 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 04:34:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78651 <<<"phoenixmum" wrote:...I agree. If it wasn't clear enough in POA and GOF, the whole "Cho" plotline in OOTP demonstrates Harry's interest in "girls."...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: Now, see, that's interesting. I thought Harry was just normal *until* the whole Cho-Chang-thang made me suspicious. Cho is a total red herring and the surest indication existing in canon that Harry's sex life, when he acquires one, might be a touch more interesting than some of us will be comfortable with. That's my twist on the story. Of course, anybody who insinuates that any Potterverse character even *has* Muggle genitalia is twisting canon. Everybody knows wizard mommies and daddies get their little magic babies from the A'sexu Alley Baby Store. I mean, is the word "sex" even in any of the books? JDR (who feels sorry for Cho, because there is nothing more depressing than being used as a portable closet for a confused teenage boy, even if your real boyfriend hadn't just died.) From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 05:30:49 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:30:49 -0800 Subject: Cupid's Snitch revisited Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030824211808.00a67390@norbert.jdbailey.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78652 One of the posts sent me on a little mission to figure out what TBAY and several other acronyms mean. While perusing http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html I came across "Cupid's Snitch" which speculates that Florence was really Bellatrix Lestrange, she was snogging Sirius and ran to Snape to learn curses. Do we need to update these theories that have been proved more than likely wrong. The thought of Sirius snogging his bigoted cousin when he was disowned by the Blacks is just too far fetched. Of course, the OoP reveals why "She's almost glossed, really&. It almost sounds as if Sirius would rather not talk about her...or even to think about her...at all, doesn't it?" I'm just curious if we should point out the reasons why some theories are dropped. (i.e. first name of Lestange learned to be Bellatrix rather than Florence; Sirius already estranged from family thus it is very unlikely to be kissing his evil cousin; Sirius's reluctance to speak of her is likely due to family ties than lover spurned theory). I think keeping these theories in the list is important...I just think it would be wise to mention that the theory is probably not valid due to evidence that came to light in later books. From zanelupin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 05:50:17 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:50:17 -0000 Subject: Lucius & Diary!Tom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78653 Wanda: >>Could Lucius perhaps have written in the diary himself, and discovered how it worked? Maybe he received instructions from the Tom Riddle in the diary - it's not perfectly clear to me that diary! Tom is confined to his own era. He seems to have a fair bit of knowledge about what happened in the years following the Basilisk episode, and it isn't explained how he found out all of the things he knows. I'm sure this has been discussed before, and of course, Ginny could have told him things. But I got the impression that he is almost a continuation of Voldemort's mind, and is somehow aware of what his non-diary self went on to do. "Voldemort is my past, present and future," is a line I come back to over and over - Voldemort seems almost to be a sort of anti-God, present at all times and in all places.<< I agree Lucius Malfoy found out how to work the diary, either by writing in and meeting Diary!Tom or perhaps Voldemort revealed some of the means he used to ensure his survival and entrusted the diary to Lucius in case he ever died. But I don't think Diary!Tom gave Malfoy any instructions to bring him back. I don't think Malfoy would reveal enough information as to what was going on in the WW for Diary!Tom to instruct him to help him return. In fact, if Malfoy was writing in the diary, he probably fed the diary misinformation so he wouldn't *have* to do anything about it if he didn't want to. Maybe he told the diary that Voldemort was still alive and well, ruling the WW, laughing as the blood of muggle- borns dripped from his hands. This is based on my belief 1. that Malfoy wouldn't really want Voldemort back because he's happy with his wealth and power, and doesn't need Voldemort to prop him up, and 2. Diary!Tom has no knowledge except that which is given to him via the diary. Although Diary!Tom does seem to have quite a bit of knowledge from beyond his time, several things he says leads me to believe that most of that knowledge comes from Ginny Weasley. Firstly, he says outright: "Ginny told me all about you, Harry," said Riddle. "Your whole *fascinating history." Emphasis Rowling. (CoS, US Paperback 311) Of course he could be lying, as he is prone to do--Hagrid raising werewolf cubs further down on the page is an example, as is the whole framing Hagrid thing. Plus Riddle says he was always able to charm anyone he needed to (310). But there is further evidence that Diary!Tom only knows about his future self and Harry from what he's told by Ginny. When describing what happened with the initial opening of the Chamber, he says Dumbledore is the only one suspicious of him and that he couldn't open the Chamber again in school. "Well he certainly kept an annoyingly close watch on me after Hagrid was expelled," said Riddle carelessly. "I knew it wouldn't be safe to open the Chamber again while I was still at school....I decided to leave behind a diary, preserving my sixteen-year-old self in its pages..." (312). It's his mention of Dumbledore that is actually the most convincing. He talks about Dumbledore in the sense that he knew him at sixteen: as the Transfiguration teacher. Not as fearsome Dumbledore who spent years working to thwart Lord Voldemort. Ginny would have mentioned Harry's defeat of Voldemort both as a baby and in the previous year but she wouldn't have specifics on either event, nor on the first war in general. Even when Diary!Tom tells Harry about "I am Lord Voldemort" he still doesn't offer any knowledge beyond what the sixteen-year-old Voldemort would know. He speaks in the past tense, but I think that's because he is aware of the passage of time, despite a lack of knowldege of events in that passing. Also, Diary!Tom asks Harry to tell him how Harry survived both times (316). It gave me the impression that he didn't have the specific events of either occurrence, which he would have had if he'd been in any way connected to the present Lord Voldemort. Look at the way he muses: "So. Your mother died to save you. Yes, that's a powerful counter- charm. I can see now...there is nothing special about you, after all." (317). He doesn't say, "Aha! I should have known. I should have been ready." as if he had been there. So while I believe Diary!Tom knows a little bit about his future self's situation, I also think there are big blanks in that knowledge. I don't believe, for the reasons above, he is in anyway connected with the current, hiding-in-the-forests-of-Albania Voldemort. Okay, this is where I quit, KathyK (going to sleep in the nice 50 degree weather...so much better than 80 and HUMID!) From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Mon Aug 25 23:10:57 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:10:57 +1000 Subject: A Trio of Trios? Message-ID: <001801c36b5e$255e22d0$62984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 78654 Hi all, I have kept coming back to the "trios" theory/concept/whatever over the weekend (I know, it's official - I *have* no life). We have the HRH trio; the DD, MM and SS trio as well as the SJR trio. Do we have the Evil!Counterpart trio? Voldemort, Bellatrix, and ? or Voldemort, Lucius and ? (I was going to add Draco to this one, but it is too Father/Son/(un)Holy Ghost for my liking, Pagan that I am, although the Trio concept comes forth in Paganism quite strongly as well). Somehow, though, I can't seem to get PP into a trio. I know some equate him with Neville or Remus but I'm not so sure. He has "touched" each trio somehow, yet seems separate. He owes a life debt to Harry and his loyalty to Voldemort, and was a friend of the SJR trio at school (while still not being as much a part of the group as the other three). This suggests (to me) his "otherness", as in other being "removed from". Which brings me back to the Prophecy, as someone (sorry, I can't remember who just now) suggested not so long ago, rather than being A or B must die at the hands of B or A, that the "Other" is in fact C. The new silver hand he received from Voldemort in the graveyard at the end of GoF springs immediately to mind there to me also. Sorry, Just working through a few things out loud. Any input is appreciated and encouraged! Nox ~ Consciousness, that annoying time between naps. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sues0101 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 24 23:14:51 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 23:14:51 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's sexual preference Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78655 >From: "cookiemacster" > If I've offended you I'm sorry, it wasn't intentional. And if > you're allowed to express your ideas here, than why am I not? > NO OFFENCE! > Yet another, little thought gone long! > -Macy Sue: Macy, no way am I offended, and of course you are allowed your opinion. My original point was agreeing that people should ligthen up and let everyone have their opinion without abusing the poster if you disagree. You didn't abuse me, so that's fine, and you disagreed, and that's fine too. Good on you! The 'throwing the cat among the pigeons' idea was to demonstrate that we can have lighthearted discussions about anything in the book without it degenerating into an argument. It was a very tongue in cheek point, but maybe I didn't put that across well enough. People will read whatever they want into JK's work and everyone will have a differing opinion. We have seen various discussions on different topics where the argument has raged back and forth, occasionally getting a little heated or ranty (myself included). Personally, I'm glad that you disagreed with me, but howabout if I added that my secrect dream would be that Orlando Bloom would play Draco (looking like Legolas of course), turned to the 'light', and he and Harry decided they loved each other. Would that be cool or what? Sue (who has decided that maybe the pigeons here are too used to cats after all. LOL) From rios0119 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 01:16:20 2003 From: rios0119 at yahoo.com (rios0119) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:16:20 -0000 Subject: Sisters Black (and Mitford) a clue to their future? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78656 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ghinghapuss" wrote: > Jessica Mitford, the rebel, who unlike her family developed left wing > opinions, converted of pacifism and become a socialist. Jessica even > considered the possibility of visiting Germany with her sister and > murdering Hitler. Jessica is a good basis for Andromeda. (SNIP) > Mandy. In interviews, Rowling has said she is an admirer of Jessica Mitford and that she named her daughter after her. Rios From whizbang121 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 01:16:23 2003 From: whizbang121 at yahoo.com (whizbang) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:16:23 -0000 Subject: Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78657 Tj wrote: But, no one has brought up the one thing (the first thing) I think of when they refer to "Lily's eyes" all the time. The EYES are the window to the soul. Harry and Lily are bonded, at their souls. Harry *looks* like his dad... but deep down in his soul, he is like his mother. ta .. Tj -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- It's interesting though, that when Harry looks into the mirror of erised, he sees other people with green eyes like his and his mothers. "whizbang" From tamliv at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 25 01:26:09 2003 From: tamliv at worldnet.att.net (Tamee Livingston) Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 17:26:09 -0800 Subject: Voldemort's plans and the Minister of Magic Message-ID: <076a01c36aa7$f25f7250$43c50c0c@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 78658 I keep stumbling in my attempts to figure out what if anything Voldemort has planned for the Wizarding World now that he's got a body. I mean, the lying low and lulling everyone into a false sense of security, undermining both Harry and Dumbledore; that was clever strategy. It would allow him to make alliances, infiltrate positions of power with almost no one being the wiser. It made sense; as others have speculated, Lucius could have been positioned to become the next MOM, and if nothing else, they already had Fudge in their back pockets. But then, there was that annoying trap and raid in the Dept of Mysteries, with Voldemort's return and Malfoy and other "safe" DEs exposed, and Harry and Dumbledore are no longer attention craving crackpots. It's hard to see that the risks they took were worth it. However, I wonder if there was a back up plan in place. I find it highly unlikely that Fudge is going to remain MOM for long. He's shown himself to have screwed up big time, and I don't think any amount of backtracking is going to save his political hide. So we're looking at a new MOM, and I'm wondering if perhaps a DE whose cover has not been blown could get the position. I have no names to suggest, but I think the wizarding world is going to be looking for a stronger leader, a new Crouch as it were, to deal with the chaos that's bound to ensue, and I doubt that Dumbledore is going to take the job. The sacrifice of Malfoy (who had already been named by Harry as a current DE) would be worth it, if they had a strong candidate to slip into the office. Still, I don't know if Voldemort is as far seeing as all that. His plans to date have seem remarkably convoluted and not too bright. I really would like to admire him as a villain, but to date the only times he's impressed me was as Tom Riddle in COS and his ruthless "kill the spare" in GOF before he ruined it all by his stupid megalomaniacal prattling and dueling. Any suggestions of what clever diabolical machinations Voldemort's got going would be greatly appreciated. Also, if I have somehow parroted someone else's ideas, it was completely unintentional, and I apologize profusely. Tamee From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 07:36:13 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:36:13 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78659 > Melinda: >I think her presence at Hogwarts for 39 years is a clue that >Dumbledore was no longer Transfiguration teacher in 1946 because he >became headmaster - and there must be some importance to that. Dumbledore can't have been headmaster since 1946, or Lupin's statements in PoA don't make any sense. "Before the Wolfsbane Potion was discovered, however, I became a full fledged monster once a month. It seemed impossible that I would be able to come to Hogwarts. Other parents weren't likely to want their children exposed to me. But the Dumbledore became headmaster, and he was sympathetic." (PoA pg 353 US hardcover) This seems to indicate that Dumbledore became Headmaster just before Lupin turned 11, which would mean he's only been Headmaster since the late 60's- 1970 (going by the Lexicon's dates for MWPP school years). ~Margaret From kcox at wooster.edu Mon Aug 25 02:25:59 2003 From: kcox at wooster.edu (its_a_monstertrucker) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 02:25:59 -0000 Subject: SHIP: Hermione/Neville Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78660 (NOTE: If this idea has been discussed before, my apologies. The search engine turned up nothing, but I'm told it's unreliable.) Anyway, this occurred to me while rereading Chapter 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward. US page 513. Gran Longbottom meets Harry and co., and says "and you must be Hermione Granger." "Hermione looked rather startled that Mrs. Longbottom knew her name, but shook hands all the same." Now, naturally Gran would recognize Harry, and she apparently knows the Weasleys as well. But why would Neville be talking all about Hermione back home? The mere fact that she's "helped him out of a few sticky spots" doesn't really seem sufficient. And then something else occurred to me. It's never been given much thought, but Neville DID ask Hermione to the ball in GF, before Ron or Harry even. I think it's pretty clear that Neville has feelings for Hermione. Meaning the next question is: Would Hermione ever take an interest in Neville? Well, I don't think she's ever thought romantically about him, but she definitely cares about him. She's unfailingly kind to him, moreso than Ron or Harry, and in GF, when Fake!Moody is demonstrating the Cruciatus Curse, it's Hermione who notices Neville's distress, and who tries to talk to him after class. While I suspect that this kindness is partly out of pity, Neville is lately becoming a much less pitiable character. I think Neville's growing self-esteem could be leading into a relationship. Now, some people have argued against R/H saying that Ron would be in Hermione's shadow. While this disparity would be even wider for N/H, I don't see it becoming a problem because Neville just isn't a jealous person. (Not that I think Ron is very much, but Neville is even less so.) Really, I think Neville is a better match for Hermione than Ron or Harry. They're arguably the two most compassionate of the younger characters. Go ahead and call me crazy, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it'll happen. It just fits much more satisfyingly than R/H or H/H. I feel much more confident about this prediction than about anything else that might come in the last 2 books. Peace out monstertrucker From sollecks970 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 03:00:31 2003 From: sollecks970 at aol.com (fawkes970) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 03:00:31 -0000 Subject: Could Harry have other relatives? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78661 In the fifth book, There is a simple clue leading me to suspect that Harry may well have relatives from Lily's side. In the fifth book, Chapter 1:Dudley Demented; Harry meets up with Dudley during the night and during their talk he says to Dudley, "'So who've you been beating up tonight?' Harry asked, his grin fading. 'Another ten-year old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago --'" - As we all know well by now, JK is not one to throw words around. What with Mrs Figg in the end of the fourth leading to her true identity in the fifth. The last name Evans I am of course referring to Lily. JK could have chosen any name , but none the less she uses the maiden name of Lily, Harry's mother. Any thoughts on this one? ~Pat From sollecks970 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 03:20:39 2003 From: sollecks970 at aol.com (fawkes970) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 03:20:39 -0000 Subject: Heir of Gryffindor In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78662 "whizbang" wrote: > >snip< > > I also wonder if Harry is the heir of both Gryffindor and > > Slytherin. He did open the CoS. > > > > In the end I think that Dumbledore's repeated references to > > choices rather than blood make sense > "elizabeth1603" wrote: > Yes, yes yes! Harry is descended from both Slytherin and > Gryffindor, and he has to chose which one to resemble! > > Maybe? No no no- You see, what ur leaving it and what is most important is the the chamber of secrets =has been opened numerous times that year before harry actually ever opened it. Plus: It was already said that Volemort was the heir of slytherin because he could control the basilisk. ~Pat "fawkes" From ashleyannerees at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 05:09:10 2003 From: ashleyannerees at hotmail.com (starboard_7) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:09:10 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore in GoF Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78663 I was recently rereading GoF for the 10th or so time, and something stuck out to me that I hadn't noticed before... Towards the end of Goblet of Fire, after Harry returns from the Portkey back to Hogwarts, he is talking to Dumbledore (who just discovered Mad Eye Moody, etc). Harry tells Dumbledore that Voldemort had gotten some of his [Harry's] blood and consequently now has the same protection Harry has from his mother. After learning this, Rowling writes (not exact quote) that Dumbledore seemed to smile for a fleeting instant before responding that Voldemort has "overcome that obstacle." Did anyone else wonder what this could mean? I noticed it about 5 days ago and it has been bothering me a great deal... I'd love to hear others' thoughts about it. "starboard_7" From helen at odegard.com Mon Aug 25 07:43:17 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:43:17 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Hermione/Neville In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c36adc$8d2298b0$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 78664 (NOTE: If this idea has been discussed before, my apologies. The search engine turned up nothing, but I'm told it's unreliable.) Anyway, this occurred to me while rereading Chapter 23, Christmas on the Closed Ward. US page 513. Gran Longbottom meets Harry and co., and says "and you must be Hermione Granger." "Hermione looked rather startled that Mrs. Longbottom knew her name, but shook hands all the same." Go ahead and call me crazy, but the more I think about it, the more I'm convinced it'll happen. It just fits much more satisfyingly than R/H or H/H. I feel much more confident about this prediction than about anything else that might come in the last 2 books. Peace out monstertrucker I think it is a possibility. As much as I love H/Hr and even like R/Hr, somehow, I don't think either will happen. No proof just... given Jo's penchant for twists, both are too obvious. I like Neville/Hermione, but I think there is also some evidence for Neville/Ginny. Ginny stands up for Neville (on the train) and Neville defends Ginny (against Malfoy at the end). Of course, I also ship Harry/Tonks, so don't listen to me ;) Helen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ashleyannerees at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 05:24:27 2003 From: ashleyannerees at hotmail.com (starboard_7) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 05:24:27 -0000 Subject: Telling Names (Was: RE: Lupins name. Just a silly thought.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78665 Finchen Said : (editted) > > BTW who would name their son "the white" (=Albus) or Lucifer > >(=Lucous) or dragon (=Draco, it's Latin!). More response to the naming issue in HP- I've been looking at other uses (scientific, literary, etc) of the names Rowling's chosen for her characters... Draco - constellation in the sky, whose basis comes from the dragon that Hercules defeated in a battle at a mythical garden Minerva - Literary allusion to Wisdom, Wise Hermione - female version of Hermes: the Messenger....I saw this as fitting as she often delivers "messages" or answers in class, and serves as go-between Harold - child warrior (I think this was a reference from a Shakespeare play but cannot quite remember) Malfoy - Mal=evil, foi~foe Percy - (again, I apologize as I cannot remember the book this allusion stems from) referred to someone who abandoned/parted ways from their family There are more out there too...I was just skimming book on literary allusions and found MANY names used in Harry Potter. I wonder if these help her shape the personalities of her characters??? "starboard_7" From helen at odegard.com Mon Aug 25 07:50:05 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 00:50:05 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Trio of Trios? In-Reply-To: <001801c36b5e$255e22d0$62984cca@Monteith> Message-ID: <000701c36add$7fc242a0$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 78666 Sorry, Just working through a few things out loud. Any input is appreciated and encouraged! Nox Hi, Nox... A couple more trio's for your pondering: Ginny/Neville/Luna (the trio that joined the usual trio at the MoM) Moody/Remus/Tonks (the trio at the station, looking out for Harry over the summer) Helen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From helen at odegard.com Mon Aug 25 08:01:13 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:01:13 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Generation Parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000c01c36adf$0da7d520$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 78667 I've been reading through the posts, and a thought struck me. Now this probably has been discussed to death, but being relatively new to this, I find it hard to search the posts. The sheer volume is daunting. My thought is this... Don't you think there is a nice balance to JKR's story. I mean we have the current trio; Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then there is the trio of the past; James, Remus, and Sirius. Draco is Harry's nemisis, Snape was James. There is Wormtail, the bumbler, and Nevile, his modern counterpart. Can anyone think of anymore? And how do these parallels relate to the story? Are there clues here as to what will happen? IMHO, and I did post this in the past; though to find my post is difficult; if JKR is seeking to balance the story, we find Harry in a loveless home environment at the beginning of his saga. To make the scales equal, don't you think he should end up part of the Weasly family (I know some of you SHIPpers, disagree) by being with Ginny? D - an optomist at heart, if ever there was one. Ah, but there are funny twists... Neville is no Peter, for one. From the pensieve chapter, we see that Peter was a sniveling sycophant, something Neville is decidedly NOT. Also from same chapter, I think we see that Harry is really more like *Lily* than he is like James. He has his mother's eyes, indeed. Is Draco really like Snape? Perhaps, but we still do not know what will become of Draco. I don't like generational parallels to justify ships. I have seen both H/Hr shippers and H/G shippers make cases here. However, it smacks slightly of Oedipal complex to me to use those justifications. I *do* think the one thing Harry needs most is family, or rather, to be loved. I think the Weasleys do love him, but I don't think he has to marry into their family for that to be the case - he is already like a son to them. Helen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 08:08:01 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 08:08:01 -0000 Subject: Meaning of Harry's Name (kinda long) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78668 I was thinking about all the discussion recently about the meanings of names and remembered I found this interesting site about Kabalarian meanings of names a couple of years ago, and just for the heck of it I tried Harry in the generator. Here's what it said, which I find oddly accurate: (I've noted some of things I think are *particularly* relevant: The name of Harry gives you a very individual, reserved, serious nature. You stick stubbornly to your ideas or decisions, in spite of any appeals or advice; you are not willing to accept a compromise. You prefer to be alone with your own thoughts, rather than in the company of others. This name restricts spontaneity in association and the fluency of your verbal expression. **When you are required to express yourself in personal matters requiring finesse and diplomacy, you feel awkward and embarrassed.** Although you realize perfectly well what is expected of you, you are unable to find the right words, and hence you end up saying something inappropriate in a candid way. You can express your deeper thoughts and feelings best through writing. Your friendships and personal associations are rather restricted, being limited to those of a similar nature who can understand and accept your rather straightforward yet reserved manner. **You are steadfast and loyal, and do not allow gossip or anything belittling to be said against those whom you accept in friendship.** You find satisfaction in being outdoors or in getting out into nature, or in dealing with the products of the earth. There is originality and depth of thought contained in this name, particularly along practical and mathematical lines. This name can adversely affect the health of your respiratory organs, the heart and lungs. **Also, you are prone to suffer from weaknesses centering in the head.** Well, I thought it was interesting :-) ~Margaret From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 09:47:37 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:47:37 -0000 Subject: Generation Parallels In-Reply-To: <000c01c36adf$0da7d520$6401a8c0@helenw1> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78669 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Helen R. Granberry" wrote: > Ah, but there are funny twists... Neville is no Peter, for one. >From the > pensieve chapter, we see that Peter was a sniveling sycophant, something > Neville is decidedly NOT. Also from same chapter, I think we see that > Harry is really more like *Lily* than he is like James. He has his > mother's eyes, indeed. Is Draco really like Snape? Perhaps, but we still > do not know what will become of Draco. > > > > I don't like generational parallels to justify ships. I have seen both > H/Hr shippers and H/G shippers make cases here. However, it smacks > slightly of Oedipal complex to me to use those justifications. I *do* > think the one thing Harry needs most is family, or rather, to be loved. > I think the Weasleys do love him, but I don't think he has to marry into > their family for that to be the case - he is already like a son to them. > > > > > Helen Oh dear, I am afraid I was misunderstood. I was not refering to character traits in my post. I was merely stating that there is a balance in the way JKR wrote the past and present. I do realize that Neville is no Peter. I was just thinking that Neville balanced the trio as Peter did J/R/S. H/R/H are not J/R/S. Though Harry does carry some of his father's character traits, he is more compasionate than James was at his age. Ron is not like either Remus or Sirius. And Hermione cannot possible be a copy of either Remus or Sirius either. My main point was the balance of the relationships. I have been reading many posts, and many people believe that Harry would die at the end of his story. If he dies without issue that would certainly not balance the scales. If you would have true symetry (it's way to early to spell correctly, sorry), then Harry would have to marry and have a child. I hope that clarifies my point. Sorry for any confusion. D From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Aug 25 10:00:31 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:00:31 -0000 Subject: Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78670 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "whizbang" wrote: > Tj wrote: > But, no one has brought up the one thing (the first thing) I think > of when they refer to "Lily's eyes" all the time. The EYES are the > window to the soul. Harry and Lily are bonded, at their souls. > Harry *looks* like his dad... but deep down in his soul, he is like > his mother. ta .. Tj > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > It's interesting though, that when Harry looks into the mirror of > erised, he sees other people with green eyes like his and his > mothers. > > "whizbang" It could be a mistake to believe what is shown in the Mirror. It shows what you *desire*, not reality. What Harry saw may bear no relation to the truth. Another JKR red herring, perhaps? Kneasy From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Mon Aug 25 11:27:15 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 11:27:15 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78671 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" > wrote: > > > > Here's something to consider: was Remus aware of the damaging > effect > > that confinement at 12 Grimmauld Place was having on Sirius' mental > > state? If he did, why didn't he confront Dumbledore about it? > > Laura: > > Oh, no, something else that's Remus's fault...;-). We don't know > that he didn't-such a scene wouldn't appear unless it was being > related to Harry by someone else (or he overheard it), right? Oh, I'm not saying it's Remus' fault, I'm just raising another point for speculation. As you say, this is a situation that we know very little about, since Harry wasn't around for most of it. And I can easily believe that Remus talked to Dumbledore about it and Dumbledore blew him off. But given Remus' history with Dumbledore, I can also believe that this was another situation where Remus backed down a little too easily. If he did, he would've rationalized it to himself, just as he had rationalized his PoA actions to himself. He may have told himself that he could give Sirius the needed support, so there was no reason to fight with Dumbledore about it. Maybe that's why he moved into 12 GP, when we know from GoF that he has his own place. > Laura again: > > I think that Remus goes out of his way with Snape, though. He > consistently refuses to let Snape bait him, despite Snape's continual > efforts to do so. Sure, politeness can be a weapon (see Remus's > interaction with the Dursleys at the end of OoP). But I really got > the sense that he is paying extra attention to his relations with > Severus. Yeah, but if he is, he's been doing it since early on in PoA, so I still don't think OOP represents a change in that regard. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 12:47:23 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:47:23 -0000 Subject: Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78672 > > Tj wrote: >But, no one has brought up the one thing (the first thing) I think >of when they refer to "Lily's eyes" all the time. The EYES are the >window to the soul. Harry and Lily are bonded, at their souls. >Harry *looks* like his dad... but deep down in his soul, he is like >his mother. > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- whizbang: >It's interesting though, that when Harry looks into the mirror of >erised, he sees other people with green eyes like his and his >mothers. Kneasy: >It could be a mistake to believe what is shown in the Mirror. >It shows what you *desire*, not reality. What Harry saw may bear >no relation to the truth. Another JKR red herring, perhaps? > The mirror of Erised can't *always* be right. Quirrel saw himself handing the stone to Voldemort, and we KNOW that didn't happen ;-) You see nothing more and nothing less than your heart's deepest desire. Harry wanted to see people he recognized as his family, so he saw the people who shared his physical characteristics (since the mirror is a two demensional medium and cannot show things like movement, voice, and personality). His eyes are distinctive, so of course it showed him people with his eyes. I'm even willing to bet that not all of the people in the mirror were wizards, he just assumed they were because that's what he *wanted* them to be. ~Margaret Interesting useless fact: There's a very important song in the Broadway musical The Secret Garden called "Lily's Eyes". I'm thinking about a FILK. Please excuse me if this post is a bit incoherent, I've been awake for almost 24 hrs :-) From mss4a at cstone.net Mon Aug 25 12:49:38 2003 From: mss4a at cstone.net (Melanie ) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:49:38 -0000 Subject: Free will/Calvinism in a nutshell In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78673 Barb wrote: > In fact, one might even look on her choice of time travel styles as > illustrative of her philosophy concerning this issue. Perhaps PoA > gave us all of the information we needed about it. > In some other people's time travel stories alternate universes > can be spawned; not so in hers ... > I think a good Calvinist would heartily approve of her > time-travel sequence in PoA. Wow Barb, gmta. :) I remember remarking to a friend of mine years ago that I thought POA's timeline was very predestination-friendly. (And incidentally, I find it more pleasing than the Back to the Future- type plots where alternate timelines are spawned. They're so much more messy and confusing.) Plus, there's an element of "providence" associated with the POA plot ... I mean, Harry only survives because he conjured the Patronus, but he wouldn't have been able to conjure the Patronus if he hadn't survive the Dementor attack. So basically ... he survives because he survives. :) Melanie (who's doing a very bad job of lurking) From meboriqua at aol.com Mon Aug 25 13:08:09 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:08:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78674 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > I thought Harry was just normal *until* the whole Cho-Chang-thang made me suspicious. Cho is a total red herring and the surest indication existing in canon that Harry's sex life, when he acquires one, might be a touch more interesting than some of us will be comfortable with.> Huh? What'd I miss? I was under the impression that Harry was quite attracted to Cho but didn't know how to handle his attraction, as is the case with many boys his age (girls, too, come to think of it). JKR all but told us Cho turned Harry on in PoA when she wished him good luck before a Quidditch game. Doesn't seem odd to me. Sexuality in HP in general is quite subtle, but I have to agree with anyone who has said that any references to homosexuality simply cannot be proved with canon. JKR's hands are full with her exploration of prejudice, slavery, choices, hate, family... Even the comparison of Lupin's werewolfness to someone with AIDS is still no proof that he (or anyone else in the series) is gay. Straight people find out they have AIDS all the time. Grubbley-Plank might come the closest to someone who could be gay, but even that I can't prove - I can only look smug and think "Boy, is she a lesbian straight out of the How to Be a Stereotypical Lesbian handbook". :-) If a character were to suddenly step forward in book 6 and proudly proclaim "Yes! I am gay!" that would be hunky-dory with me. However, I don't see that happening. I don't see JKR's story as one where sexuality plays a big part to begin with, and she has made that clear. Look, she didn't even describe Harry's first kiss as anyone more than how he could see the tears on Cho's lashes... what a disappointment. --jenny from ravenclaw, whose own gaydar does not include Harry, as we all know I love that boy ******************** From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 13:23:32 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:23:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78675 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<<"phoenixmum" wrote:...I agree. If it wasn't clear enough in POA > and GOF, the whole "Cho" plotline in OOTP demonstrates Harry's > interest in "girls."...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > Now, see, that's interesting. I thought Harry was just normal *until* > the whole Cho-Chang-thang made me suspicious. Cho is a total red > herring and the surest indication existing in canon that Harry's sex > life, when he acquires one, might be a touch more interesting than > some of us will be comfortable with. The "surest indication." HOW? Someone's first relationship with a girl fizzles out - in part because she is on the rebound and a jealous bitch besides -- and that means he's gay? He's got physical reactions to Cho. Stomach churning, hands sweaty, etc, etc... Put JKR's euphemisms in the vulgate and those churning stomachs really mean that he can't come to the blackboard and work a Potions problem. There is no canon evidence that Harry has any kind of attraction to any man or boy. So this "Harry is gay" thing is part trying to use absence of something as evidence and part wishful thinking. Portable closet? Give me a break. And she was using Harry as an emotional tampon to get over Cedric. All's fair in love and war. Darrin -- No, I'm not back full time. From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 25 13:38:36 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:38:36 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time travel (was Free will/Calvinism in a nutshell) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308251538.36155.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78676 Barb: In some other people's time travel stories alternate universes can be spawned; not so in hers, as far as we have seen (or at least not when one uses a Time Turner). Events were always going to unfold in a particular way, and just because Harry didn't know that Buckbeak wasn't executed until he traveled through time didn't mean it was ever any different. A unique timeline doesn't imply events always unfold in a certain way. It only implies there is a single universe to deal with, but not that events can't be changed. Melanie: > Plus, there's an element of "providence" associated with the POA > plot ... I mean, Harry only survives because he conjured the > Patronus, but he wouldn't have been able to conjure the Patronus > if he hadn't survive the Dementor attack. So basically ... he > survives because he survives. :) I though that before reading Talisman's post, 78370. She has reversed your argument, that Harry survives because he survives. silmariel From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 14:04:56 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:04:56 -0000 Subject: Generational Parallels In-Reply-To: <98121652813.20030824195656@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78677 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Sunday, August 24, 2003, 7:38:38 PM, A wrote: > > > Don't you think there is a nice balance to JKR's story. I mean we > > have the current trio; Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then there is the > > trio of the past; James, Remus, and Sirius. Draco is Harry's > > nemisis, Snape was James. There is Wormtail, the bumbler, and > > Nevile, his modern counterpart. > > Apart from seeing PP and Neville as very different, I also > don't see much resemblance between the two "trios" and their > nemesis. > > While James and Sirius appear to be aggressors toward Snape > (as far as we can tell), Draco seems to be the one starting > things with H/R/Her. > > Their personalities and relationships seem very different to > me... But there is a parallel. Just because the modern day trio + company isn't exactly like the mauraders, doesn't mean that it dosen' exist. There are certain role/types that seem to act as parallels Trio+ Mauraders Leader Harry James Best Friend Ron Sirius Smart One Hermione Remus Less talent Neville Peter Nemisis Draco Snape But of course, they have different personalities and interactions. In fact you could say that they act almost oppisite the counterpart, espically after the pensieve scene in OotP. If anything, you can say that current generation has rebeled against the preset role, making it their own. Therefore, they are not doomed to repeat the mistakes of the older generation. Neville won't betray the trio, Draco either won't join the DE or will but not be redeemed, Hermione will not be an outcast, Ron will not go to Azkaban, and Harry won't die defending his son. Serena From Meliss9900 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 14:08:05 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:08:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] SHIP: Hermione/Neville Message-ID: <93.322f625d.2c7b7245@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78678 In a message dated 8/25/2003 2:40:44 AM Central Standard Time, kcox at wooster.edu writes: > Go ahead and call me crazy, but the more I think about it, the > more I'm convinced it'll happen. It just fits much more > satisfyingly than R/H or H/H. I feel much more confident about > this prediction than about anything else that might come in the > last 2 books. > > Peace out > > monstertrucker > > I think it would be only natural for Neville to speak about his schoolmates to his Gran but I think as a pairing it more likely to be Neville/Ginny. Especially based on OotP. The book isn't handy but I can recall 3 instances off the top of my head in which Ginny or Neville defend each other. 1) neville refers to him self as either a Nothing or a no body amd Ginny speak sharply to him: "No you're not". 2). The only reason Neville got involved in the whole DoM mess was because he went to Ginny's aid when the inquisatorial squad jumped her outside of Umbridge's office. 3) When the DE hits her with a stunner, Neville immediately attacks him even tho he is unable to properly voice spells (and Harry was right there when it happened but had no reaction) due to his broken nose. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 14:29:54 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:29:54 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78679 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" wrote: > > > > People will read whatever they want into JK's work and everyone will have a > differing opinion. We have seen various discussions on different topics > where the argument has raged back and forth, occasionally getting a little > heated or ranty (myself included). Personally, I'm glad that you disagreed > with me, but howabout if I added that my secrect dream would be that Orlando > Bloom would play Draco (looking like Legolas of course), turned to the > 'light', and he and Harry decided they loved each other. Would that be cool > or what? > > Sue (who has decided that maybe the pigeons here are too used to cats after > all. LOL) Severus here: Sue, as you stated, people are allowed to read ANYTHING into JKR's works, but that does not neccessarily make them correct. And yes you can have your fantasy of Orlando Bloom (as Draco) and Harry have a love affair but this is not the place to air one's sexual fantasies. This is a place for discussion of the Harry Potter series of books. Earlier, by voicing my opinion on this subject, I was subjected to a flaming. For some reason, it is O.K. for people to say Harry is gay (and have very little to base this on), but not O.K. for people to say that he is straight (and have quite a bit to support this). What I am saying is keep your fantasies out of the forum, and if you want Orlando to play Draco, then post it in the movie discussion forum. As far as Harry being "attracted to Bill", give me a break. Just because a guy finds another guy cool, doesn't mean that he is harboring sexual feelings for him. Jeez, people, give it a rest. Sexual attraction and love are not related, I love my guy friends and think some are really cool, but the thought of sex with them makes me ill. Now sex with my girl friends, that is a completely different feeling. Harry gets the wonderful butterfly, warm fuzzy feeling over Cho, and still has them for all I know, but that relationship was doomed for the get go. And they were both guilty of that. If this starts another "lovely rousing cyber bar fight" so be it. IMHO sexual fantasies should be kept out of this forum. They do nothing for furthering the discussion of these books. Severus "Straight Pride" Snape From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 25 14:35:40 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:35:40 -0000 Subject: Exploring prejudice WAS Re: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78680 Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: >>JKR's hands are full with her exploration of prejudice, slavery, choices, hate, family... >> Uh huh. And JKR has made a deliberate choice to explore prejudice by *avoiding* any real world areas of prejudice as far as she possibly can. Gay characters are likely IMO to be dealt with in the same way as black characters sometimes are. Their colour is mentioned, but is then treated as completely unimportant in the Wizarding World. Sometimes their colour is mentioned long after their introduction (as for Dean Thomas in the UK editions- it's only the US editions where his colour is mentioned immediately). Skin colour is like Weasley red hair ? it's how you describe someone and has no other significance. So I wouldn't be surprised if a character's sexuality was mentioned casually. For example, Ron might mention that he wants to ask out a Ravenclaw, Ginny says `She won't go out with you, she only likes girls', and Ron replies `Drat. Well maybe if I asked ' Again, JKR is, IMO, avoiding real world prejudices in her WW. Sexuality is only significant when you want to go out with/settle down with someone. Otherwise, it has so little significance that no one bothers to mention it. JKR is exploring prejudice, but has made a choice only available in a fantasy world. She has chosen to create fictional prejudices. She and her readers are therefore able to explore prejudice without real world opinions getting in the way. The WW has no prejudice about religion, sexuality, skin colour. Unlike the muggle world, these things are so unimportant that they are barely referred to. But the WW *is* a hotbed of prejudice. The prejudice, where old pure blood families are superior to `muggle borns' and mixed bloods has enough of a correspondence in our world that we recognise it. It's not completely unfamiliar. It has echoes. But it's very, very unlikely that we would sympathise with it. Unlike if, say, JKR had chosen to examine prejudice against gay people. In that case she might struggle with some of her readers, brought up to be prejudiced against gay people. Instead, the reader is likely to sympathise with the victims of prejudice. Readers are from the muggle world. If Hogwarts suddenly, incredibly, turned out to be real, and the invite landed on an eleven year old reader's doorstep ? it would be them who would be the target of WW prejudice. And the reader knows this. JKR has cunningly cast the reader as the target. The WW prejudices are not against some nice safe `other'. They're against *you*. Pip!Squeak From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 14:58:12 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:58:12 -0000 Subject: SHIPS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78681 I know this has been discussed to death, but I feel I need to voice my opinion. The Neville / Ginny thing, don't see it happening, friends always defend each other, and didn't Neville ask Hermione to the ball, not Ginny? Ginny is still smitten with Harry as far as I can tell at the end of OotP, the scene with Ginny hiding her smile as Harry was talking to her while they were visiting Hermione in the hospital. Now the Hermione / Ron thing, Ron does seem to be attracted to Hermione since he becames a little jealous of her going with Krum, but could this be due to going with some one outside the trio instead? Would Ron acted this way if it was Harry she went with? I don't think so. Now Harry / Hermione, Harry is a clod when it comes to relationships (as seen with Cho) and he is blind as a bat when it comes to the subtle signs ot the opposite sex. But Hermione seems to send them any chance she gets to, every time the situation gets tense, she grabs Harry, not Ron. Harry was the first one she kissed on the cheek, and the first one she hugged. Hermione kissed Ron on the cheek for luck at the quidditch match, and also to make sure he didn't see the Weasly for King banner at the Slytherin end of the field. We see Harry's view on Hermione change at the Tri Wizard ball when he sees her all done up, and wearing something besides the normal school robes. Now my favorite, Harry / Ginny ship. Ginny is still enamored with Harry at the end of OotP, and I hope it continues. Ginny would be wonderful for Harry as long as he learns to interpret the female signals a little better. Harry would find himself in a very loving family, and it seems Ginny would support him whole heartedly. He did risk his life against a Basilisk for her. But I think Harry would have done that even for Draco, he just seems to be that kind of guy. (the D/H SHIP people need not respond) I still think it will be HP/GW, RW/LL, and HG/NL, by the end of it all. K, people, time to tear my opinion apart, please. Severus "let the flaming begin" Snape From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 14:54:20 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:54:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Heir of Slytherin Message-ID: <20030825145420.52302.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78682 Entropy wrote: Excellent point. And don't forget how many times throughout OoP, as well as GoF (think of everyone's reaction to Harry's rescuing Fleur's sister, who did't really need rescuing), we heard someone tell Harry that he had a "saving-people-thing"? My reply: Granted at the time that this happened he really thought they might get hurt. I mean is he really that selfless for wanting to help people? Possibly, however, I know if in my mind that I probably would have done the same thing if I were him. He really thought that their lives were in danger. Also, hermione didn't need resucing before but seeings how Harry was highly confused about who exactly was his "special person," at that point. My question is in regards to that scene why on Earth would they chose two people who they know are close one particular person (extremely close mind you) to put down at the bottom. I know Hermione chose Krum or what not, but really you would think they would consider how it might confuse Harry if his two best friends in the world are down at the bottom of a lake. Certainly, Dumbledore knows how close Hermione is to Harry and Ron. Actually at that point the whole school knows how close they are. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 25 15:02:55 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:02:55 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78683 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > > <<<"phoenixmum" wrote:...I agree. If it wasn't clear enough in POA > > and GOF, the whole "Cho" plotline in OOTP demonstrates Harry's > > interest in "girls."...>>> > > > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > > > Now, see, that's interesting. I thought Harry was just normal > *until* > > the whole Cho-Chang-thang made me suspicious. Cho is a total red > > herring and the surest indication existing in canon that Harry's > sex > > life, when he acquires one, might be a touch more interesting than > > some of us will be comfortable with. > > > The "surest indication." HOW? > > Someone's first relationship with a girl fizzles out - in part > because she is on the rebound and a jealous bitch besides -- and that > means he's gay? > > He's got physical reactions to Cho. Stomach churning, hands sweaty, > etc, etc... Put JKR's euphemisms in the vulgate and those churning > stomachs really mean that he can't come to the blackboard and work a > Potions problem. > > There is no canon evidence that Harry has any kind of attraction to > any man or boy. So this "Harry is gay" thing is part trying to use > absence of something as evidence and part wishful thinking. > > Portable closet? Give me a break. And she was using Harry as an > emotional tampon to get over Cedric. All's fair in love and war. > > Darrin > -- No, I'm not back full time. ok, this got interesting and I wanted to add something to it, I am still under the impression that these books are for children, we as adults tend to read too much into every little detail, if JKR were to write a book for adults, I think we as adults would be highly disappointed. She tends to avoid the actual situation because as I know with my crew of kids, that is what kids do, they avoid things. if they don't like it or don't want to admit it, they avoid it. So IMO, why would she make Harry gay, that's the last thing kids want to face in the world, they have enough peer pressure that they don't need to be questioning their own sexuality based on a writers opinion. it wouldn't be fair to the kids, and she knows it. Lori From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 25 15:11:50 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:11:50 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78684 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "starboard_7" wrote: > I was recently rereading GoF for the 10th or so time, and something > stuck out to me that I hadn't noticed before... > > Towards the end of Goblet of Fire, after Harry returns from the > Portkey back to Hogwarts, he is talking to Dumbledore (who just > discovered Mad Eye Moody, etc). Harry tells Dumbledore that > Voldemort had gotten some of his [Harry's] blood and consequently > now has the same protection Harry has from his mother. After > learning this, Rowling writes (not exact quote) that Dumbledore > seemed to smile for a fleeting instant before responding that > Voldemort has "overcome that obstacle." > > Did anyone else wonder what this could mean? I noticed it about 5 > days ago and it has been bothering me a great deal... > I'd love to hear others' thoughts about it. > > "starboard_7" This is something that Dumbledore was hoping Voldemort would not get past, in SS, Voldemort/Quirrell could not touch Harry, That is what saved Harry that he could not be touched, when Quirrell tried to choke Harry. His mother's Protection, (because she died for him) means that Voldemort could not touch Harry, Just as their wands will not work against each other, Voldemort used Harry's blood so that not only could he touch Harry, as he did when he touched his face, but he is hoping that it will protect him the same way that it protects Harry. Simple really, maybe someone that is really tring to hurt Harry by physical harm, can't, but now Voldemort may have the same protection and won't be able to be defeated by physical assult. Lori From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 25 15:17:49 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:17:49 -0000 Subject: Telling Names (Was: RE: Lupins name. Just a silly thought.) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78685 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "starboard_7" wrote: > Finchen Said : (editted) > > > BTW who would name their son "the white" (=Albus) or Lucifer > > >(=Lucous) or dragon (=Draco, it's Latin!). > > More response to the naming issue in HP- I've been looking at other > uses (scientific, literary, etc) of the names Rowling's chosen for > her characters... > > Draco - constellation in the sky, whose basis comes from the dragon > that Hercules defeated in a battle at a mythical garden > > Minerva - Literary allusion to Wisdom, Wise > > Hermione - female version of Hermes: the Messenger....I saw this as > fitting as she often delivers "messages" or answers in class, and > serves as go-between > > Harold - child warrior (I think this was a reference from a > Shakespeare play but cannot quite remember) > > Malfoy - Mal=evil, foi~foe > > Percy - (again, I apologize as I cannot remember the book this > allusion stems from) referred to someone who abandoned/parted ways > from their family > > There are more out there too...I was just skimming book on literary > allusions and found MANY names used in Harry Potter. > I wonder if these help her shape the personalities of her > characters??? > > "starboard_7" I wonder if you can put them together and give us the ending of the 7 books, and what about Voldemort, or rather "I am Tom Riddle" what do the books say that Tom and Riddle mean. there is just something about this that is getting to me, and I don't like Riddles I can't answer, LOL, excuse the pun. Lori From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Mon Aug 25 15:21:15 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:21:15 -0000 Subject: Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: <20030825145420.52302.qmail@web20703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78686 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > Entropy wrote: > Excellent point. And don't forget how many times throughout OoP, as > well as GoF (think of everyone's reaction to Harry's rescuing Fleur's > sister, who did't really need rescuing), we heard someone tell Harry > that he had a "saving-people-thing"? > > My reply: > > Granted at the time that this happened he really thought they might get hurt. I mean is he really that selfless for wanting to help people? Possibly, however, I know if in my mind that I probably would have done the same thing if I were him. He really thought that their lives were in danger. > > Also, hermione didn't need resucing before but seeings how Harry was highly confused about who exactly was his "special person," at that point. > > My question is in regards to that scene why on Earth would they chose two people who they know are close one particular person (extremely close mind you) to put down at the bottom. > > I know Hermione chose Krum or what not, but really you would think they would consider how it might confuse Harry if his two best friends in the world are down at the bottom of a lake. > > Certainly, Dumbledore knows how close Hermione is to Harry and Ron. Actually at that point the whole school knows how close they are. > > ~Melanie > > > > We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! > Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 > > > Except for one small detail, as to who Harry needed to save, Dobby told Harry that he was to save his "Weezley" not Hermoine, Dobby told him that Ron was in the lake, Harry thought about Ron not Hermoine until he reached her in the lake. Lori > > > Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black > > > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydpad at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 15:22:26 2003 From: sydpad at yahoo.com (Sydney) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:22:26 -0000 Subject: Generation Parallels In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78687 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Donna" wrote: > > My thought is this... > > Don't you think there is a nice balance to JKR's story. I mean we > have the current trio; Harry, Ron, and Hermione. Then there is the > trio of the past; James, Remus, and Sirius. Draco is Harry's > nemisis, Snape was James. There is Wormtail, the bumbler, and > Nevile, his modern counterpart. > > Can anyone think of anymore? And how do these parallels relate to > the story? Are there clues here as to what will happen? I definitely agree that Rowling is doing SOMETHING with generational parallels, but I think she's presenting it as a trap, rather than a guide. In the books themselves, the temptation to parallel people almost always leads the characters into trouble. Harry trusted Riddle's version of events in CoS because he identified with him as an orphan; in PoA Harry imagined Pettigrew as a nice-guy Neville figure. Snape constantly mis-interprets Harry's actions by assuming he is the same as his father. And I have a strong suspicion that a lot of Sirius' attitude towards Snape came from projecting his younger brother Regulus onto him. In a way, I think this ties in with the whole theme of prejudice-- the habit of pre-judging people by things that don't relate to them as an individual. This goes beyond race and class into all simplistic systems of categorization-- the house system, etc. etc.... I mean, who hasn't had a relationship where you didn't project the traits of the last lover onto the present one? --Sydney (I definitely think Harry's going to end up with Ginny though! ;) ) From bard7696 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 15:25:37 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:25:37 -0000 Subject: Exploring prejudice WAS Re: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78688 Pip, after a well-thought out and interesting post on prejudice: > > And the reader knows this. JKR has cunningly cast the reader as the > target. The WW prejudices are not against some nice safe `other'. > > They're against *you*. > > Pip!Squeak Which is why it cracks me up when I read people identifying with the Slytherins. Slytherins would HATE you, you filthy mudbloods! They would laugh and point and call you names and give you eating disorders from the stress. Darrin -- Sorry to hijack Pip's thing here. Pip bears no responsibility. Direct it to me. From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 15:37:20 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:37:20 -0000 Subject: Pore Ced Is Daid (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78689 Pore Ced Is Daid (GoF, Chap. 35-36) Here's the fourth filk from my filk-musical in progress, A!Kedavra to the tune of Pore Jud Is Daid, from Rodgers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma! Dedicated to Wendy THE SCENE: The grounds of Hogwarts, with all students and staff in attendance. HARRY has just returned from the Little Hangleton graveyard, clutching the lifeless body of Cedric Diggory. HARRY: Pore Ced is daid, Pore Cedric is daid. After we had just achieved joint victory `Twas a lad beyond compare But said Voldy, "Kill the spare" And he kilt him jus' as kilt as kilt could be ALL Pore Ced is daid, Pore Cedric is daid. How awful that his youthful life is spent MOODY Life is spent! ALL (except HARRY, DUMBLEDORE & MOODY) For a Tri-Wiz win he tied But like that he up and died We reckon it's a tragic accident... (MOODY drags HARRY away to his office) MOODY: [speaking] Now, you come along with me, I got something to say. Son, I bought you here to tell ya that I know the name of that no-good worthless bit of two-faced Death Eater filth what's been skulkin' round this here school of our'n. It were he what put your name in that Goblet. He helped you see howta beat them dragons. He conversated with McGonagall about whether you would use gillyweed in front of your little elf friend. He patrolled the maze, cursin' obstacles out of your way, stunnin' Fleur Delacour.... HARRY: You can say that again! MOODY: ....as she passed. He put the Imperius Curse on Krum, so that he would finish Diggory and let you nab the cup. HARRY: I jus' knew you were gonna catch that varmint, Professor! Quick, let's find Dumbledore and tell him to arrest that guy. MOODY (slapping his forehead) You numbskull! It was me! I'm the no-good Death Eatin' skunk! HARRY: (laughing) Thanks, Professor, on a day like this I really need a good laugh. Now, quick, let's go find Dumbledore. MOODY: Not only is decent folk easy to manipulate, they is mighty slow on the uptake. Look, here, Potter, I'm a-aimin' to kill ya .. [Singing] But you folks ain't really knowed me Knowed that neath that shiny eye what always whirls I'm a-Eatin' Death to serve Lord Voldemort (The door is blasted open by DUMBLEDORE, who quickly fells MOODY) DUMBLEDORE But now you're on the floor- MCGONAGALL That is not Professor M .. SNAPE It's that Polyjuice again . (MOODY transforms back to CROUCH JR ? he is then given Veritaserum, much to the consternation of WINKY) WINKY [Speaking,] Winky loves her Crouch family And Mister Crouch Senior, She loved him even though he thought she was less than the vermin And not even equal to a rat, `cause he was right! And she loves little Master Barty, even if he wants to destroy everything and everybody for the sake of Voldemort...You should never let on, you is getting us all in trouble... (Exit CROUCH, under guard. Enter, moments later, MINISTER FUDGE) FUDGE: [Singing] Pore Crouch is kissed, Pore Junior is kissed, By all accounts it ain't much of a loss HARRY & DUMBLEDORE Of a loss! FUDGE: The boy's out of control so he hadta lose his soul He'll now just sit around and gather moss DUMBLEDORE Ol' Fudge is mad, his judgment is so bad He's denyin' that the Dark Lord has returned FUDGE: Turned-- DUMBLEDORE And though Snape showed his Mark, Fudge remains yet in the dark And seems to be completely unconcerned FUDGE: 'Cerned! (Segue to the Great Hall, for the Leaving Feast, with all Hogwarts in attendance) DUMBLEDORE Pore Ced is daid, there's dark days up ahead, May his mem'ry remain beyond reproach If Voldy's to be defied Then we must be unified (to HARRY) And by next year you'll see thestrals pull the coach ALL (except Slytherins): Pore Ced... Pore Ced! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From abigailnus at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 15:45:33 2003 From: abigailnus at yahoo.com (abigailnus) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:45:33 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Fatastic Posts - Where Can We Find Them? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78690 Dear HPfGU Members, Hello from the FAQ team! We're in charge of writing the Fantastic Posts essays, which can be found at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/ These essays collect posts on a variety of different subjects, ranging from The Weasley Family to Justice in the Wizarding World. They also provide summaries of important and popular theories such as LOLLIPOPS or George. The Fantastic Posts are a great asset to group members old and new, providing a coherent perspective on the ideas that came before us. They also allow us to save from Yahoo! oblivion those posts which are truly remarkable and worth remembering. We on the FAQ team are eager to get to work on updating the old FPs and writing new ones in the wake of OOP, but we'd like you all to help us. Have you read a post recently that really made you think? A well-written post, that offered a new perspective or submitted a new thoery? In short, have you read a Fantastic Post recently? If you have, we'd like to hear about it. Before you get going, a few words on what makes a post Fantastic. You might want to check out some of the posts referenced in the old FPs to get an idea of the kind of quality we're looking for. Also, bear in mind that a a Fantastic Post should: 1. Be well written and coherent 2. Present new ideas or offer a good overview of old ones 3. Have good formatting - good grammar and spelling, capitalization and punctuation where appropriate, more then one paragraph, etc. There are three simple ways to let us know about a Fantastic Post: 1. We've opened the FAQ archive group to posting by the general public. You can e-mail us at Fantastic_Posts at yahoogroups.com Please use the following template when sending us a recommendation e-mail Fantastic Post number: Author of Fantastic Post: Topic of Fantastic Post: Date of Fantastic Post: Not all fields have to be filled, but we *must* have the message number - finding a message in any other way is all but impossible. 2. You can also reach the archive group homepage the same way you might go to the HPfGU homepage and post a message from there. The URL is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fantastic_Posts/ Simply use the 'Post' link on the sidebar. Again, use the template above, and be sure to include the message number. Please note that you do not have to join the group in order to post. In fact, in order to keep the archives list manageable and nominations confidential, we are limiting membership to the Fantastic Posts team. 3. A database has been created on the HPfGU homepage. To get there, simply go to the homepage and click on the 'Database' link in the sidebar on the left-hand side of the screen. Scroll down the list until you find a database entitled 'Fantastic Posts'. Click on the title and you will be transferred to the database page. From there you can simply click on the 'add record' link at the top of the table to make your suggestion. You don't need to fill out all the fields, but you must include a message number. Important note: please do *not* forward a message to the archive group. A forwarded message will not contain a message number, and that will make it impossible for us to locate it. Finally, any post you send is only a suggestion. If you look at the old Fantastic Posts you might notice how few messages they actually reference. This isn't because these are the only good messages in over 70,000 posts, but because if we were to include all the fantastic posts ever made to the group we would drown, and the very purpose of the FPs is to provide brief and concise overviews of ideas on the list. We can't promise to use every post you send us, but we do promise to read and consider every one with all due gravity, no matter who the author is. Wishing you happy hunting, Abigail For the FAQ team From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 16:20:26 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:20:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tonks house, was Heir of Slytherin Message-ID: <20030825162026.22968.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78691 dangermousehq wrote: The woman of your dreams has been introduced in OotP. Tonks was very likely a Slytherin. At the prefect party, Ginny (or Hermione) asked her if she had been a prefect. She answered something like, no. Her head of house didn't think she had a proper regard for the rules. Sound like Snape was her Head of House? She's also a descendant of the Black family, but that's a thin crust to bake. My reply: I doubt very seriously if Tonks was a Slytherin. McGonagall would be the type of person to make such a comment also. I mean she herself has stated that she can be hard on students, perhaps, she thought Tonks was too klutzy to be trusted as prefect. Also, I think that it is fair to assume that Andromeda was not in Slytherin. My guess is she was either a Gryffindor or a Ravenclaw. I say this because from the little that we know of her she is a good person and she married a muggle born. This doesn't mean that she is definitely a Slytherin but I think it's likely that she was not. Thus, her daughter would not be likely to go into the house due to the Black "blood" in her. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 16:38:18 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:38:18 -0000 Subject: Staffing at Hogwarts/subjects In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78692 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sbursztynski" wrote: > > Are there any qualified teachers at Hogwarts? ...some are good at it > - Flitwick, McGonagall, Sprout ... But to teach... at Hogwarts you > don't need to have attended any wizards' teachers' college, > ...edited... bboy_mn: The historical method of training new wizards in fiction has been by Master/Apprentice training. Many of the wizard's stories written in fiction are actually written from the point of view of the Apprentice. Typically accounting his poor miserable existance until on day when a mysterious stranger comes to their poor home and offer to pay the family a sum of money if they will let there son come with him and be his apprentice. Since it was almost impossible for a poor person to get an education, the family usually gladly agrees. The son then sets off on a great adventure which he recounts in the story. The point is that the Master wizard training his apprentice is the standard model and I believe that is the model the school follows. It has simply assembled the Masters and the students into one location to make training easier and more efficient. If you look at the sujects and how they are taught, Howgarts is more like a wizard's techinal college than a general college. It focuses on the practical application of specific skill rather than a cross section of general or liberal arts edcuation. > Sybill Trelawney was allowed to mess up Divination for 16 years' > ... maybe (Dumbledore could) make her library assistant ....? bboy_mn: The degree to which Trelawney is a competent Seer is not that relevant to teaching the students. She does know the mechanics of tea leaf reading, Tarot cards, palm reading, astrology, and other forms of external divination. These are not that big a deal. The fact that they can be defined clearly enough to have a text book written about them indicates to me that virtually any intellectually knowledgable person could teach them. Certain things like crystal gazing are more difficult, but it is the psychic capability of the student that determine if they can see in the crystal ball. All Trelawney has to do is convey the general methods and techniques the students need to apply. Again, anyone could teach that. My point is that while Trelawney may seem to be a marginal Seer that doesn't necessarily make her ineffective as a teacher of Divination. As far as whether Trelawney is a competent Seer of not, I think she is better than we give her credit for. She did repeatedly see a big black dog when she was reading Harry during Prisoner of Azkaban, and a big black dog was present in Harry's life at the time, her mistake was in assuming that the big black dog was a Grim. So, I think she does have a general intuitive psychic vision, but she really stinks at understanding and interpreting what she is seeing. > And does anyone in the wizarding world ever get to study literature, > history or music? There just doesn't seem to be room in the Hogwarts > curriculum. > > Sue B bboy_mn: Since Hogwarts is like a vocational school, the answer is NO, they don't study the arts, history, literature, music, etc.... If students want to experience those, they mush pursue them on their own. Just a thought. bboy_mn From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 16:47:59 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:47:59 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78693 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: (heavy snip) > I think Lucius Malfoy is a careful and sneaky fellow in general so I am inclined to believe he did know what giving the Diary to Ginny > Weasley would ultimately accomplish: The return of Voldemort? Not > exactly. As evilshelly mentions above, Malfoy would love a Voldemort in his debt. It would give him even more power. > > And to expound on that idea, it would make Malfoy the one in charge. Perhaps he believes that this sixteen-year-old boy can be molded into whatever Lucius finds appropriate. I would imagine that even thoroughly muggle-hating sixteen-year-old Tom Riddle could still be influenced. After leaving Hogwarts, he went off to learn all he could about the Dark Arts. > > This Tom Riddle could do the same, only his good friend and mentor, > Lucius Malfoy is there this time to give him a helping hand. Malfoy could set him on a similar path to the one he had before, aiding him in his goals, which have been theorized on recently. > (heavy snip) > KathyK CW comments: Kathy, in CS, p231 (UK edition), the text reads: (Riddle talking) " 'How did you escape with nothing but a scar, while Lord Voldemort's powers were destroyed ?' There was an odd red gleam in his hungry eyes now. 'Why do you care how I escaped ?' said Harry slowly. 'Voldemort was after your time.' 'Voldemort' says Riddle softly, 'is my past, present and future, Harry Potter...' etc etc (the anagram scene of his name) To me, this passage clearly indicates that the Tom Riddle of the diary is fully aware of his future, and who he became, and is indeed one and the same person in this scene, so I am not sure how Lucius Malfoy could have thought he could manipulate a schoolboy Voldemort. But perhaps Lucius misunderstood the nature of the 'being' that was held between the diary's pages ? Personally, I thought it suspicious that Lucius just happened to have this diary on him whilst shopping for Draco's schoolbooks at Flourish & Blotts, especially as he could not have known that the row with the Weasley's was going to occur. The only reasonable explanations are that (a)he was on his way to sell it (or store it) at Borgins & Burke; or (b)there was a definite plan to slip the book into a Hogwarts child's pocket, but the row with the Weasley's gave Lucius a sudden malicious new idea as to who that should be, and he gives it to Ginny. As it is clear from what Dobby tries to tell Harry that some plot has been cooking up over the summer at the Malfoy's, I incline to explanation (b), and I would have thought that the initial target for the diary was either Hermione or Harry, either of whom would appeal to Malfoy as suitably ironic people to open up the Chamber of Secrets again. But as to what Malfoy's real intentions were in doing this, I agree it is debatable. Perhaps his only intention was to get the Chamber open again, so that the Basilisk could wreak havoc, kill lots of Mudbloods and get the school closed down etc, and he didn't realise it could potentially bring back Voldemort as well. Perhaps Voldemort, in his long, dark evil planning gave this diary long ago to Malfoy for safe keeping, without explaining fully what it could do (one of his deep plans to cheat death). It would fit with Voldemort trusting no one, not even an important DE like Malfoy. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 17:08:43 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:08:43 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78694 Maneelyfh and I have been comparing our opinions on Fudge and his convenient stance on LV not being back untill the end of OotP. I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge is in leagues with LV. First in PoA, Fudge is at the Leaky Cauldren to greet Harry and to make sure he is O.K., and that his underage misuse of magic against his aunt was no big thing. This sounds fine until later. Second in PoA, the dementors left their posts to invade the Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's request? We think so. Third in PoA, the dementors try to administer the kiss to Harry and perhaps to Hermione. Would the dementors act on their own accord, and go against orders? The only one that was to get the kiss immediately was Sirius, but there is no mention of this. The dementors receive their orders from who? Fudge, that's who. And how would he know that the dementors had tried to "kiss" Harry in the first place, the only one who knew was Harry and he remained unconscious until Fudge had already told DD about the attempted "kiss". Fudge knew because he had orered it, and to save face, he had to order the dementors back to Azkaban, even after Sirius had escaped once again. Fourth in PoA, If Fudge thought Harry and friends were actually under Sirius' control, he would still believe Harry and friends were in danger from Sirius, and the dementors would have remained, even against DD wishes. Harry and friends were the only one's defending Sirius, and Snape and Fudge said that they had be cunfunded, so how would Fudge know Sirius would not attempt to kill Harry again, because Fudge knew Sirius was after Peter in the first place, and Fudge was trying to protect Peter. Peter had escaped, as Harry, Hermione, and Ron told them. So it was safe for the dementors to go back to Azkaban, Peter was safe from Sirius. Fifth in GoF, the pensieve incident, Karkaroff states "...we never knew the names of everyone of our fellows...He alone knew who we all were..." This statement gives further proof of the possibility of Fudge being a DE, because if know one knew except LV, then one one could rat him out. Sixth in GoF, Crouch would have been getting orders from Fudge during the Tri Wizard Tourney and that would be the reason he helped Harry with the tasks, whether it was trough Cedrick, Moody, or himself. Crouch told Cedrick how to read the second clue and in turn knew Cedrick would tell Harry, since Harry had helped him with the first task. Seventh in GoF, Moody was hired by DD, who else would know except the MOM? Fudge then told Crouch Jr. to take Moody's place in order to facilitate Harry winning the cup. Why else would Fudge have the kiss administered so quickly to Crouch Jr. after his capture? So Crouch Jr. could not tell of Fudge's involvement. Eighth in GoF, LV states "...I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear." Could LV be speaking of the creatures that Luna Lovegood says Fudge is secretly breeding? And finally in OotP, Umbridge, who sent the dementors to "kiss" Harry. Umbridge, who had all the power to do what she wanted at Hogwarts. Umbridge, who undermined the DADA class so the students could not stand a chance in a battle against the dark arts. Which would make it easier for LV to regain power, there would be no one trained to stop him. Where did she receive this power? Fudge,he apointed her high inquisitor at Hogwarts and he signed all the decrie's she wanted. Also, Fudge's accusation of DD creating an army to over throw him is just a clever cover up, (even though DD turned the job down), so he could do as he pleased. O.K., just one more. Why did Fudge try to punish Harry for the underage use of magic so ferverently in the MOM? Harry had a serious reason for that use of magic, but all the other times, Dobbies levitation of the cake, Harry blowing up his aunt, had been delt with very lightly. Fudge had a means to further discredit Harry and possibly have him removed from the situation totally. By further discredit of Harry, it is easier to discredit DD by associating them so closely, ie; "DD must be crazy to believe this boy. Look at all he's done." Fudge tried to use this to his advantage through the local paper. One final question, does everyone think Fudge is an idiot? He did become MOM some how. Do you think that he would be this clueless in all the signs pointing to LV's resurection? Fudge knew, but he also knew LV needed time to gain his army back, and Fudge was able to deny his existence with plausible deniability. Severus "I'm not a DE, He is." Snape From zanelupin at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 17:19:27 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:19:27 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78695 I wrote: >>>And to expound on that idea, it would make Malfoy the one in charge. Perhaps he believes that this sixteen-year-old boy can be molded into whatever Lucius finds appropriate. I would imagine that even thoroughly muggle-hating sixteen-year-old Tom Riddle could still be influenced.<<< CW commented: >>Kathy, in CS, p231 (UK edition), the text reads: (Riddle talking) " 'How did you escape with nothing but a scar, while Lord Voldemort's powers were destroyed ?' There was an odd red gleam in his hungry eyes now. 'Why do you care how I escaped ?' said Harry slowly. 'Voldemort was after your time.' 'Voldemort' says Riddle softly, 'is my past, present and future, Harry Potter...' etc etc (the anagram scene of his name) To me, this passage clearly indicates that the Tom Riddle of the diary is fully aware of his future, and who he became, and is indeed one and the same person in this scene, so I am not sure how Lucius Malfoy could have thought he could manipulate a schoolboy Voldemort. But perhaps Lucius misunderstood the nature of the 'being' that was held between the diary's pages ?<< KathyK replies: See, I read the above passage differently. I read it as Diary!Tom knowing who he is, certainly. I think he's aware of what he did in the future because of what Ginny Weasley told him. So he's confident he will become that again. I also think he's aware of the passage of time. The way he says it does sound like he Diary!Tom and the present Lord Voldemort could be the same person, but as I said, that's not what I got from it. I don't think I'm explaining well what it is I'm trying to say. But if it helps clarify how I interpreted Diary!Tom's above statement, read message # 78653. In that post, I wrote some of the reasons why I believe Diary!Tom is self-contained and not in any way connected to the present Voldemort. And I will try to see if I can figure out exactly how to express what I want to say while I'm at work . KathyK (frustrated by time constraints) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 25 17:26:16 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:26:16 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78696 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > Remus was consistently polite and deferential toward Snape > throughout PoA, too. Polite and deferential appears to be Remus' > default manner toward everyone, his shield against the world that's > just looking for an excuse to brand him a monster even when he's in > human form. Note that when he drops that pleasant manner, it's > always deliberate, and always produces the effect he wants to > produce. Jen: When Remus drops his pleasant manner, it doesn't seem calculated to me. Like in POA, when he's angry with Harry about going to Hogsmeade, he comes across like any adult/parent who feels frustrated with a young person for not realizing how serious a situation is. Yes, he appeals to Harry on a very personal level, but he's allowed to given his relationship with James and Lily. Then in OOTP, with Molly, once again he lays out the facts in a very matter of fact way, minus the anger he felt in the above situation. Example: "Molly, that's enough," said Lupin firmly. "This isn't like last time. The Order are better prepared, we've got a head start.... He seems very straight-forward to me, with a good ability to connect with people, not through manipulation, but just plain old empathy from a guy who has been through a lot. I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree his default is polite and deferential, but Remus can say what he thinks MOST of the time as an adult. JR From siskiou at earthlink.net Mon Aug 25 17:29:43 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:29:43 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Generational Parallels In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <161174005972.20030825102943@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78697 Hi, Monday, August 25, 2003, 7:04:56 AM, Serena wrote: > If anything, you can say > that current generation has rebeled against the preset role, making > it their own. Therefore, they are not doomed to repeat the mistakes > of the older generation. Neville won't betray the trio, Draco either > won't join the DE or will but not be redeemed, Hermione will not be > an outcast, Ron will not go to Azkaban, and Harry won't die defending > his son. What I don't understand is, why they should have a preset role, and be doomed to repeat the mistakes others made, in the first place. Where does this idea come from? -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 17:39:04 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:39:04 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78698 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > I wrote: > >>>And to expound on that idea, it would make Malfoy the one in > charge. Perhaps he believes that this sixteen-year-old boy can be > molded into whatever Lucius finds appropriate. I would imagine that > even thoroughly muggle-hating sixteen-year-old Tom Riddle could still > be influenced.<<< > > > CW commented: > > >>Kathy, in CS, p231 (UK edition), the text reads: > (Riddle talking) " 'How did you escape with nothing but a scar, > while Lord Voldemort's powers were destroyed ?' There was an odd red > gleam in his hungry eyes now. > 'Why do you care how I escaped ?' said Harry slowly. 'Voldemort was > after your time.' > 'Voldemort' says Riddle softly, 'is my past, present and future, > Harry Potter...' > etc etc (the anagram scene of his name) > > To me, this passage clearly indicates that the Tom Riddle of the > diary is fully aware of his future, and who he became, and is indeed > one and the same person in this scene, so I am not sure how Lucius > Malfoy could have thought he could manipulate a schoolboy Voldemort. > But perhaps Lucius misunderstood the nature of the 'being' that was > held between the diary's pages ?<< > > and what he may have wanted> > > KathyK replies: > > See, I read the above passage differently. I read it as Diary!Tom > knowing who he is, certainly. I think he's aware of what he did in > the future because of what Ginny Weasley told him. So he's confident > he will become that again. I also think he's aware of the passage of > time. > > The way he says it does sound like he Diary!Tom and the present Lord > Voldemort could be the same person, but as I said, that's not what I > got from it. > > I don't think I'm explaining well what it is I'm trying to say. But > if it helps clarify how I interpreted Diary!Tom's above statement, > read message # 78653. In that post, I wrote some of the reasons why > I believe Diary!Tom is self-contained and not in any way connected to > the present Voldemort. > > And I will try to see if I can figure out exactly how to express what > I want to say while I'm at work . > > KathyK (frustrated by time constraints) CW replies: Yes, I've read your post, and it is an interesting idea that he only knows what has happened through what Ginny etc may have told him, but the 'odd red gleam in his hungry eyes' ? I thought this description was a real giveaway. I think his eyes only got this creepy after he left school and sunk himself in the dark arts ? I still think the Diary was one of his long-term ploys to avoid death, and it so nearly succeeds ! I agree that Malfoy almost certainly would not have wanted him to reappear though. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 17:41:59 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:41:59 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78699 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Maneelyfh and I have been comparing our opinions on Fudge and his > convenient stance on LV not being back untill the end of OotP. > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > is in leagues with LV. > > First in PoA, Fudge is at the Leaky Cauldren to greet Harry and to > make sure he is O.K., and that his underage misuse of magic against > his aunt was no big thing. This sounds fine until later. > > Second in PoA, the dementors left their posts to invade the > Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were > all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's > request? We think so. > > Third in PoA, the dementors try to administer the kiss to Harry and > perhaps to Hermione. Would the dementors act on their own accord, > and go against orders? The only one that was to get the kiss > immediately was Sirius, but there is no mention of this. The > dementors receive their orders from who? Fudge, that's who. And > how would he know that the dementors had tried to "kiss" Harry in > the first place, the only one who knew was Harry and he remained > unconscious until Fudge had already told DD about the > attempted "kiss". Fudge knew because he had orered it, and to save > face, he had to order the dementors back to Azkaban, even after > Sirius had escaped once again. > > Fourth in PoA, If Fudge thought Harry and friends were actually > under Sirius' control, he would still believe Harry and friends were > in danger from Sirius, and the dementors would have remained, even > against DD wishes. Harry and friends were the only one's defending > Sirius, and Snape and Fudge said that they had be cunfunded, so how > would Fudge know Sirius would not attempt to kill Harry again, > because Fudge knew Sirius was after Peter in the first place, and > Fudge was trying to protect Peter. Peter had escaped, as Harry, > Hermione, and Ron told them. So it was safe for the dementors to go > back to Azkaban, Peter was safe from Sirius. > > Fifth in GoF, the pensieve incident, Karkaroff states "...we never > knew the names of everyone of our fellows...He alone knew who we all > were..." This statement gives further proof of the possibility of > Fudge being a DE, because if know one knew except LV, then one one > could rat him out. > > Sixth in GoF, Crouch would have been getting orders from Fudge > during the Tri Wizard Tourney and that would be the reason he helped > Harry with the tasks, whether it was trough Cedrick, Moody, or > himself. Crouch told Cedrick how to read the second clue and in > turn knew Cedrick would tell Harry, since Harry had helped him with > the first task. > > Seventh in GoF, Moody was hired by DD, who else would know except > the MOM? Fudge then told Crouch Jr. to take Moody's place in order > to facilitate Harry winning the cup. Why else would Fudge have the > kiss administered so quickly to Crouch Jr. after his capture? So > Crouch Jr. could not tell of Fudge's involvement. > > Eighth in GoF, LV states "...I shall have all my devoted servants > returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear." Could LV > be speaking of the creatures that Luna Lovegood says Fudge is > secretly breeding? > > And finally in OotP, Umbridge, who sent the dementors to "kiss" > Harry. Umbridge, who had all the power to do what she wanted at > Hogwarts. Umbridge, who undermined the DADA class so the students > could not stand a chance in a battle against the dark arts. Which > would make it easier for LV to regain power, there would be no one > trained to stop him. Where did she receive this power? Fudge,he > apointed her high inquisitor at Hogwarts and he signed all the > decrie's she wanted. Also, Fudge's accusation of DD creating > an army to over throw him is just a clever cover up, (even though DD > turned the job down), so he could do as he pleased. > > O.K., just one more. Why did Fudge try to punish Harry for the > underage use of magic so ferverently in the MOM? Harry had a > serious reason for that use of magic, but all the other times, > Dobbies levitation of the cake, Harry blowing up his aunt, had been > delt with very lightly. Fudge had a means to further discredit Harry > and possibly have him removed from the situation totally. By > further discredit of Harry, it is easier to discredit DD by > associating them so closely, ie; "DD must be crazy to believe this > boy. Look at all he's done." Fudge tried to use this to his > advantage through the local paper. > > One final question, does everyone think Fudge is an idiot? He did > become MOM some how. Do you think that he would be this clueless in > all the signs pointing to LV's resurection? Fudge knew, but he also > knew LV needed time to gain his army back, and Fudge was able to > deny his existence with plausible deniability. > > Severus "I'm not a DE, He is." Snape Maneelyfh here with more (or less depending on how you look at it) I am rereading OOTP and the scene when Umbridge acutually touchs Harry that he gets a severe head pain, and the funny feeling in his stomach is bothering me. In fact all his headaches up to chapter have me wondering about LV knowing things about Harry. At Grimwauld, He gets a headache, and I think it after he gets cleared from the underage magic charge. Then with umbridge the scar pain is mixed iwtha feeling in his stomach that he recognizes as happiness or joy. Soooo, wht I am thinking is that there is a Umbridge?LV/Fudge thing going on and Umbridge on orders from Fudge or LV is trying to get Harry away from school by making his life so miserable there or that he gets into trouble and expelled. LV is angry that Harry got off of the underage ministry charge, and it happy that Harry has felt great pain at the hand of Umbridge. While this needs to be researched a bit more and probably better thought out (sorry, head injury at 16yo) I am hoping to get input for this. Fran Who whole heartedly agrees HARRY IS NOT GAY. Lets just not go there. From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 25 17:52:09 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:52:09 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS...Harry's explanation to Tom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78700 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Yes, I've read your post, and it is an interesting idea that he only > knows what has happened through what Ginny etc may have told him, but > the 'odd red gleam in his hungry eyes' ? I thought this description > was a real giveaway. I think his eyes only got this creepy after he > left school and sunk himself in the dark arts ? I still think the > Diary was one of his long-term ploys to avoid death, and it so nearly > succeeds ! I agree that Malfoy almost certainly would not have wanted > him to reappear though. I took that exchange with Harry also to be a sign that Diary!Tom is a *continuation* of Voldemort, not just an amber-preserved earlier version. His question to Harry is not in the nature of trying to fill in blanks in the story that Ginny couldn't tell him. It's more trying to find the answer to a puzzle that no one can figure out. It sounds like this is something that Voldemort has agonized over all these years, and can find no answer, despite his great knowledge and abilities. So he's asking the only other person who might know. And frankly, I still don't think that we have the real answer. Harry tells him what he can, and Tom/Voldemort appears to accept it, but it sounds rather weak. It's not the sort of "Of course!! Now it's all clear!" reaction I'd expect of a final puzzle piece falling into place; more of an "Ah. I see. Well, I guess that must be it, then..." It sounds tentative to me, and I think we're going to find that there's more to the story than Harry has guessed. Wanda From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 25 17:52:08 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:52:08 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78701 "KathyK" wrote: > > (heavy snip) > > I think Lucius Malfoy is a careful and sneaky fellow in general so > I am inclined to believe he did know what giving the Diary to Ginny > > Weasley would ultimately accomplish: The return of Voldemort? Not > > exactly. As evilshelly mentions above, Malfoy would love a > Voldemort in his debt. It would give him even more power. Now CW comments: > But as to what Malfoy's real intentions were in doing this, I agree > it is debatable. Perhaps his only intention was to get the Chamber > open again, so that the Basilisk could wreak havoc, kill lots of > Mudbloods and get the school closed down etc, and he didn't realise > it could potentially bring back Voldemort as well. Perhaps Voldemort, > in his long, dark evil planning gave this diary long ago to Malfoy > for safe keeping, without explaining fully what it could do (one of > his deep plans to cheat death). It would fit with Voldemort trusting > no one, not even an important DE like Malfoy. Jen--I'm agreeing with your theory above, CW, that Lucius ultimately only planned that the chamber would open, wreaking havoc as you say, and getting Dumbldore out of Hogwarts(and Hagrid out as a bonus). The school closing down would be a bonus too, since we find out later Lucius wants Draco at Durmstang if only Narcissa would agree. After OOTP, I don't buy that Lucius wants Voldemort back at all, in any form. He has WAY too much to lose and not much to gain. I've mentioned before that I believe he is back as a DE in name only, out of fear of the consequences, but his involvement in COS and at the Quidditch World Cup were strictly acts of terrorizing "Mudlbloods and Muggles" one of his hobbies, apparently. No, Lucius will have much more power in the Wizard World without Voldemort around to take over the spotlight. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Mon Aug 25 17:56:34 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:56:34 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference, and shipping in general In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78702 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Severus here: > > Sue, as you stated, people are allowed to read ANYTHING into JKR's > works, but that does not neccessarily make them correct. And yes > you can have your fantasy of Orlando Bloom (as Draco) and Harry have > a love affair but this is not the place to air one's sexual > fantasies. This is a place for discussion of the Harry Potter > series of books. Earlier, by voicing my opinion on this subject, I > was subjected to a flaming. For some reason, it is O.K. for people > to say Harry is gay (and have very little to base this on), but not > O.K. for people to say that he is straight (and have quite a bit to > support this). What I am saying is keep your fantasies out of the > forum, and if you want Orlando to play Draco, then post it in the > movie discussion forum. > > As far as Harry being "attracted to Bill", give me a break. Just > because a guy finds another guy cool, doesn't mean that he is > harboring sexual feelings for him. Jeez, people, give it a rest. > Sexual attraction and love are not related, I love my guy friends > and think some are really cool, but the thought of sex with them > makes me ill. Now sex with my girl friends, that is a completely > different feeling. Harry gets the wonderful butterfly, warm fuzzy > feeling over Cho, and still has them for all I know, but that > relationship was doomed for the get go. And they were both guilty > of that. > > If this starts another "lovely rousing cyber bar fight" so be it. > IMHO sexual fantasies should be kept out of this forum. They do > nothing for furthering the discussion of these books. > > Severus "Straight Pride" Snape I wasn't planning on replying to this, but I just couldn't help myself. :) First, you write the above post - then one with SHIPs. (78681) I quote that: "Ginny is still smitten with Harry as far as I can tell at the end of OotP, the scene with Ginny hiding her smile as Harry was talking to her while they were visiting Hermione in the hospital." Now, I don't get this. First of all I'm not sure which part you are referring to; is this the one? "Ginny caught Harry's eye and looked away quickly, grinning." (p. 747, UK) That's all I found, and that happened right after *Hermione* was talking, and just about everyone present was trying not to laugh at Luna. And Harry has shared such looks with Ron before, I think once at the Dursleys in GoF. So we could build a Harry/ Ron SHIP right there. And then, in the above post, you complain that calling Harry gay has no canon support, while you think Ginny smiling at Harry is enough proof that she still has a crush on him. I'm not just saying this to be picky, I'm trying to make a point here. :) The point being: what's the difference between straight and gay SHIPs?? I realise that your main objection might have been against Harry specifically being gay, but I feel I've just read one too many posts who seem to argue that discussing the possibility of any gay character at all is just completely out of order, has no canon to support it, and everyone disagreeing should just "get real". And I don't understand why! I mean, sure, these are children's books and all so sexuality will probably not be much of an issue, but since lots of characters are dating I don't see why we couldn't just get a glimpse of a gay relationship. Really - would that be such a big deal? JKR has equality between genders, colors and religions without making much of an issue of it. Okay, so this is probably just a "lighten up" post I'm writing. I've read at least one of that kind before, though, and that didn't have much of an effect. ;) To summarise: no need to get upset, people, it's only homosexuality. Now, I have one last thing to say, and it's just total pickiness. SS: <<...this is not the place to air one's sexual fantasies.>> later: <> Hrrm! Adhere to your own advice, Sevvy. :) evangelina (who's not going to miss this opportunity to point out that she's from sweden, a.k.a home country of Carolina Kl?ft. :)) From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 17:58:18 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:58:18 -0000 Subject: Exploring prejudice WAS Re: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78703 "bluesqueak" > > But the WW *is* a hotbed of prejudice. The prejudice, where old pure > blood families are superior to `muggle borns' and mixed bloods has > enough of a correspondence in our world that we recognise it. It's > not completely unfamiliar. It has echoes. JKR has cunningly cast the reader as the > target. The WW prejudices are not against some nice safe `other'. > > They're against *you*. > Kneasy (responding to a different post but discussing the same topic) The unwritten thread that winds its way unbroken through the books is that Muggles are the unconsidered lumpen proletariat, with no say, no worthwhile opinion and are to be abused, patronised or laughed at as is appropriate. The need to enact a Muggle Protection Act should tell you all you need to know. The WW sees itself as an elite, a patronising elite, a possibly dangerous elite, who regard Muggle laws or norms as totally irrelevant to their lives or behaviour even though they live within the society of Muggles. I'm sensible that in fiction just about anything goes, but this is beginning to show signs of deliberate type casting, that to be a non-wizard is to be an untouchable. The rules of morality don't apply if you're a Muggle. In my fervid imagination the HP series is taking on overtones of the Thirty Years War. An inbred aristocratic elite, split between ideologies, swapping sides as convenience dictates, telling themselves that only their squabbles matter in the overall scheme of things. Laura: Certainly JKR has as one of her main themes prejudice and its consequences. And as we get to know the WW better, we see that human behavior is no better there than in the non-WW. But I'd have to disagree with the suggestions that magical people (hereinafter mp) are unfairly or disproportionally prejudiced against muggles. I think that fault lies equally on both sides, but we just see the WW perspective in these books. And I'd suggest that the prejudice we see mp displaying toward muggles is a consequence of a historical process whose development we don't see in the books but of which we are quite aware. Just in case we're not, JKR makes an occasional reference to the history of mp-muggle relations-and it's not a pretty picture. It is sadly characteristic of all humans to hate and fear what is different. People who look, act, believe or are enabled differently from the predominant group are regarded with feelings ranging from suspicion to outright hatred. So it's easy to see that mp, with their unusual powers and relatively small numbers, would quickly become the objects of non-mp prejudice and fear. JKR gives us several historical references to muggle persecution of witches and wizards, and we know that even in today's culture these fears remain strong among certain segments of the population. I would believe that the problems between mp and muggles started with muggles who were jealous and frightened of magical abilities they didn't have and could never get. MP were probably not blameless. I can't imagine that there weren't always mp who enjoyed tormenting muggles to a greater or lesser degree. It would be almost impossible to resist a feeling of superiority if you were a witch or wizard and compared yourself to the helpless, earthbound, weak muggles. So the lack of understanding was equally present on both sides. But let's face it-mp could have wiped out every last muggle without breaking a sweat if they had chosen to. So we must conclude that mp decided (as a community, that is-there are always individual troublemakers) to try to live peaceably with muggles. Muggles, on the other hand, never stopped demonizing and persecuting mp. (The fact that their efforts to kill witches and wizards were more often met with amusement than fear was not one of which muggles were aware.) So it's easy to see why mp would eventually reach the conclusion that it would be better for everyone if the two communities lived apart. And as the WW became increasingly alienated from the muggle world, ignorance about muggles and their ways would increase, and prejudice and scorn would easily flourish, beccause we know that ignorance is the most effective breeding ground for bigotry. And so we enter the WW at the beginning of PS/SS. The WW has done its best to keep relations between themselves and the muggle world to a minimum. Intermarriage is permitted but there is a social cost. MP are known to indulge in muggle harrassing in violation of community standards, so the Muggle Protection Act has been passed. I really feel that the WW is engaged in an active and ongoing effort to keep its (understandable) feelings of superiority under control. But as LV regains strength and the authorities are preoccupied with the fallout of that situation, they have less energy and attention to give to muggle-baiting. And, of course, LV and his supporters are only to happy to encourage the whole "blood purity" agenda. At no time in the books do we see anyone who's a sympathetic character treating muggles badly just because they're muggles. Harry hates the Dursleys not because they're muggles but because they hate him. Arthur tries his best to be polite and friendly toward them, but they are rude and hostile. (Compare them with the Graggers, who seem to get along just fine with witches and wizards.) So I don't agree that the WW is any more rife with prejudice than the muggle world is. We're just seeing it from inside. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 18:03:59 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:03:59 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78704 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > Maneelyfh and I have been comparing our opinions on Fudge and his > > convenient stance on LV not being back untill the end of OotP. > > > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > > is in leagues with LV. > > > > First in PoA, Fudge is at the Leaky Cauldren to greet Harry and to > > make sure he is O.K., and that his underage misuse of magic against > > his aunt was no big thing. This sounds fine until later. > > > > Second in PoA, the dementors left their posts to invade the > > Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were > > all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's > > request? We think so. > > > > Third in PoA, the dementors try to administer the kiss to Harry and > > perhaps to Hermione. Would the dementors act on their own accord, > > and go against orders? The only one that was to get the kiss > > immediately was Sirius, but there is no mention of this. The > > dementors receive their orders from who? Fudge, that's who. And > > how would he know that the dementors had tried to "kiss" Harry in > > the first place, the only one who knew was Harry and he remained > > unconscious until Fudge had already told DD about the > > attempted "kiss". Fudge knew because he had orered it, and to save > > face, he had to order the dementors back to Azkaban, even after > > Sirius had escaped once again. > > > > Fourth in PoA, If Fudge thought Harry and friends were actually > > under Sirius' control, he would still believe Harry and friends > were > > in danger from Sirius, and the dementors would have remained, even > > against DD wishes. Harry and friends were the only one's defending > > Sirius, and Snape and Fudge said that they had be cunfunded, so how > > would Fudge know Sirius would not attempt to kill Harry again, > > because Fudge knew Sirius was after Peter in the first place, and > > Fudge was trying to protect Peter. Peter had escaped, as Harry, > > Hermione, and Ron told them. So it was safe for the dementors to > go > > back to Azkaban, Peter was safe from Sirius. > > > > Fifth in GoF, the pensieve incident, Karkaroff states "...we never > > knew the names of everyone of our fellows...He alone knew who we > all > > were..." This statement gives further proof of the possibility of > > Fudge being a DE, because if know one knew except LV, then one one > > could rat him out. > > > > Sixth in GoF, Crouch would have been getting orders from Fudge > > during the Tri Wizard Tourney and that would be the reason he > helped > > Harry with the tasks, whether it was trough Cedrick, Moody, or > > himself. Crouch told Cedrick how to read the second clue and in > > turn knew Cedrick would tell Harry, since Harry had helped him with > > the first task. > > > > Seventh in GoF, Moody was hired by DD, who else would know except > > the MOM? Fudge then told Crouch Jr. to take Moody's place in order > > to facilitate Harry winning the cup. Why else would Fudge have the > > kiss administered so quickly to Crouch Jr. after his capture? So > > Crouch Jr. could not tell of Fudge's involvement. > > > > Eighth in GoF, LV states "...I shall have all my devoted servants > > returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear." Could LV > > be speaking of the creatures that Luna Lovegood says Fudge is > > secretly breeding? > > > > And finally in OotP, Umbridge, who sent the dementors to "kiss" > > Harry. Umbridge, who had all the power to do what she wanted at > > Hogwarts. Umbridge, who undermined the DADA class so the students > > could not stand a chance in a battle against the dark arts. Which > > would make it easier for LV to regain power, there would be no one > > trained to stop him. Where did she receive this power? Fudge,he > > apointed her high inquisitor at Hogwarts and he signed all the > > decrie's she wanted. Also, Fudge's accusation of DD creating > > an army to over throw him is just a clever cover up, (even though > DD > > turned the job down), so he could do as he pleased. > > > > O.K., just one more. Why did Fudge try to punish Harry for the > > underage use of magic so ferverently in the MOM? Harry had a > > serious reason for that use of magic, but all the other times, > > Dobbies levitation of the cake, Harry blowing up his aunt, had been > > delt with very lightly. Fudge had a means to further discredit > Harry > > and possibly have him removed from the situation totally. By > > further discredit of Harry, it is easier to discredit DD by > > associating them so closely, ie; "DD must be crazy to believe this > > boy. Look at all he's done." Fudge tried to use this to his > > advantage through the local paper. > > > > One final question, does everyone think Fudge is an idiot? He did > > become MOM some how. Do you think that he would be this clueless > in > > all the signs pointing to LV's resurection? Fudge knew, but he > also > > knew LV needed time to gain his army back, and Fudge was able to > > deny his existence with plausible deniability. > > > > Severus "I'm not a DE, He is." Snape > > > Maneelyfh here with more (or less depending on how you look at it) > I am rereading OOTP and the scene when Umbridge acutually touchs > Harry that he gets a severe head pain, and the funny feeling in his > stomach is bothering me. In fact all his headaches up to chapter > have me wondering about LV knowing things about Harry. > At Grimwauld, He gets a headache, and I think it after he gets > cleared from the underage magic charge. Then with umbridge the scar > pain is mixed iwtha feeling in his stomach that he recognizes as > happiness or joy. > > Soooo, wht I am thinking is that there is a Umbridge?LV/Fudge thing > going on and Umbridge on orders from Fudge or LV is trying to get > Harry away from school by making his life so miserable there or that > he gets into trouble and expelled. LV is angry that Harry got off of > the underage ministry charge, and it happy that Harry has felt great > pain at the hand of Umbridge. > > While this needs to be researched a bit more and probably better > thought out (sorry, head injury at 16yo) I am hoping to get input for > this. > > Fran > Who whole heartedly agrees HARRY IS NOT GAY. Lets just not go there. Severus here once again: I remember that, Harry felt joy or happiness along with servere pain in his scar when Umbridge touched him. Didn't he also feel joy during or soon after his dreams when LV was inflicting pain or death on some one? Wasn't LV's happiness or anger projected to Harry through these dreams? If I remember correctly, these facts point to Unbridge being a DE without a doubt. How else would you explain, the pain of Harry's scar and his stomach feeling, (the same symptoms of LV) for close contact with Umbridge? She must be A DE, as Maneelyfh stated, because LV would have been over joyed with Harry's pain inflicted by one of his DE's, and this would explain the weird joy feeling Harry had in his stomach and his scar hurting when Umbridge touched him to inspect her handly work. Severus "we will make you believe" Snape From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 18:28:49 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:28:49 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Grindelwald_(was_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78705 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > - and if Grindelwald can cling to life, why not the source of the > Drak Arts? SALAZAR SLYTHERIN himself. > > He would only need to live about 50% longer than Nicholas Flamel and, > in CoS, Salazar was another who conspicuously wasn't pronounced dead. > Rather, Binns said, "there was a serious argument on the subject > between Slytherin and Gryffindor, and Slytherin left the school." > I had already been thinking along these lines. It would explain why the prophesy speaks of "The Dark lord" as opposed to Lord Voldemort, Tom Riddle, or any other name. Melinda From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Mon Aug 25 14:27:38 2003 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:27:38 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay: Ouroboros in HP? (Pretty long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78706 say543 wrote: (snipped a bit) > LV loses his memory, and wanders aimlessly around the room, eventually landing in a sort of time machine that sends him back about a thousand years. > I say: Now that's an interesting theory! One interesting implication: since LV loses before he goes back in time, he can try to rig the future fight in his favor. By, say, creating a room accessible only by parseltongues-with info/spells for his future self to learn from. Perhaps there were other areas he left for himself at Hogwarts-the Room of Requirement, anyone? Would have been a great place for a budding psychopath to practice the dark arts! Maybe he had a hand in the constantly changing nature of the castle, to better keep his secret places hidden. So many possibilities! One question I had, however, is what about the sorting hat? If it was imbued with some of each founder, would it not have recognized Tom Riddle as Slytherin himself? Makes me wonder what it said when it sorted him. On the other hand, if Slytherin had anything to do with the sorting hat's workings, maybe he constructed it as the perfect empire maker for his future self-it only picks future loyal followers of LV! A final thought: perhaps during his early memory-charmed days in the past as Salazar Slytherin, LV is treated nicely in a hospital like the Longbottoms. Perhaps this niceness ultimately leads to a Reformed!LV. Perhaps he doesn't *want* his future self to defeat Harry--and that's why he doesn't help his future self more, and that's why history repeats itself again (and again). Hmmm. -Remnant "i've fallen into a time turner and i can't get up!"-LV From annee19 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 15:36:48 2003 From: annee19 at yahoo.com (Anne) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:36:48 -0000 Subject: Lily and eyes (was Re: Harry's eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78707 Margaret pointed out: > > Interesting useless fact: There's a very important song in the > Broadway musical The Secret Garden called "Lily's Eyes". I'm > thinking about a FILK. Funny that you should mention that song, Margaret! I've been thinking of it, also. I heartily doubt that Rowling is borrowing ideas from this song (although it's possible, since the musical's been out since '91), but the parallels are interesting to look at. For those who don't know the song, here's what it's about: Two men (brothers, in this case) are in love with the same woman, Lily. She was married to one of the brothers. Neither she nor her husband knew that the other man loved her, too--he simply longed for her from afar and tore himself up with jealousy and contempt for his brother, who he didn't think deserved Lily. This was all in the past. Now,in the present time, Lily is dead, and her niece Mary has arrived to live with the two brothers. They note that Mary has eyes exactly like Lily's, and it's disturbing to them. All the emotions and memories of the past are being stirred up by this little girl's eyes. Their reaction to this is initially negative, especially for the "loved her from afar" brother, who treats her coldly. Again, I think this is coincidence, but if it turns out that there was once a James/Lily/Snape love triangle, it would be a fun coincidence, especially with the eye resemblance issue thrown in there. --Anne From meltowne at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 18:45:41 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:45:41 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78708 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)" wrote: > I want McG to have started teaching in 1946, right after the defeat > of Grindelwald, but when I count on my fingers, 1995 minus 39 > years keeps coming out 1956 (19*5*6) rather than 1946. you are correct... don't know how I came up with 1946! > Being in her 30s in 1956 makes her in her 20s in 1946, and 16 in 1942 > -- she may have been in the SAME YEAR as Riddle. Which of course means she may know more than she's letting on. She was obviously taught by Dumbledore, who must have considered her one of his best students for him to have hired her as his replacement. Now that I think about it, there may be more significance between those who call LV "He Who Must Not be Named" as opposed to "You-Know Who." Maybe it's time to see who is using the latter for LV - perhaps those people DO know who he was, and are undecided which name to use? It seems that Hagrid knows many things he should not, but not others he should. If he knew that LV was Tom Riddle, I would think Minerva would too. And maybe that's why she's so concerned about Harry at the beginning of SS/PS - she knows what happened to Tom Riddle who was raised in a similar environment. From gene_orourke at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 17:09:03 2003 From: gene_orourke at yahoo.com (orourkeg) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:09:03 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78709 Has is occurred to anyone that the relationship between Harry's wand and Voldemort's wand may not be sheer coincidence? There has been a lot of discussion about the hint at the end of GoF that Dumbledore was aware of the protection Harry's blood had given him. If Dumbledore knew that, I would expect that he would also have known what happens when two related wands do battle. Knowing the prophesy, might Dumbledore have commissioned the second wand using Fawkes' tail feather? It wouldn't be that much of a stretch to expect that the wand would eventually choose Harry, given the other links between Harry and Voldemort. This would be simply once more protection that Dumbledore was able to convey to Harry. I don't think it has been said anywhere that the two wands were created at the same time. From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 17:14:40 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:14:40 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78710 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > is in leagues with LV. Excellent post, severusbook4. Just one thought occurs to me: if Fudge is truly in league with Voldemort, and not the idiot that he pretends to be, then why would Voldemort have so much trouble retrieving the prophecy from the Department of Mysteries? Couldn't Fudge have just gotten him in somehow, without detection? Entropy From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 17:10:05 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:10:05 -0000 Subject: Narcissa (and Draco) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78711 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "narie" wrote: > After all, in OotP we saw that Kreacher loathes Sirius and will not > obey Tonks, who is a direct descendant of the Black family - both > these characters are anti-LV wizards. However, "Kreacher seized his > opportunity shortly before Christmas... He went to the only Black > family member for whom he had any respect left... Black's cousin > Narcissa, sister of Bellatrix and wife of Lucius Malfoy." > Plus, I find it very hard to believe that Kreacher would have > respected her if she were anti LV ? in this case Lucius would > perhaps control her under the Imperius curse, but Kreacher would > have been aware, prior to their marriage, of Narcissa's beliefs and > thus treated her like he did with Sirius. Just a thought on these comments: why would Narcissa be the only family member for whom he had any respect left? Why not Bellatrix? (Apparently, Sirius's family had initially been supporters of Voldemort, though not Death Eaters.) Bellatrix is clearly a Death Eater, and Narcissa, through her association with Lucius, is at the very least a Death Eater supporter. What is the difference between the two, other than possibly their level of Voldemort fanaticism? Discuss! From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Aug 25 18:35:18 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:35:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] FUDGE IS A DE!!!! References: Message-ID: <3F4A56E6.6030604@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78712 severusbook4 wrote: (snip) > > Second in PoA, the dementors left their posts to invade the > Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were > all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's > request? We think so. Its been made clear that the dementors worked for LV. Fudge was quite shocked to think they would attack a child and pulled them from the school after the attack by the lake. He was too sure that the MOM could control the dementors. The later attack on Harry was ordered by Umbridge, not Fudge. > > Third in PoA, the dementors try to administer the kiss to Harry and > perhaps to Hermione. Would the dementors act on their own accord, > and go against orders? The only one that was to get the kiss > immediately was Sirius, but there is no mention of this. The > dementors receive their orders from who? Fudge, that's who. And > how would he know that the dementors had tried to "kiss" Harry in > the first place, the only one who knew was Harry and he remained > unconscious until Fudge had already told DD about the > attempted "kiss". Fudge knew because he had orered it, and to save > face, he had to order the dementors back to Azkaban, even after > Sirius had escaped once again. Its clear that they would not only go against orders of the MOM, but they even deserted the MOM to join LV. Its clear that the dementors are on LV's side, not Fudge's. > > Fourth in PoA, If Fudge thought Harry and friends were actually > under Sirius' control, he would still believe Harry and friends were > in danger from Sirius, and the dementors would have remained, even > against DD wishes. Harry and friends were the only one's defending > Sirius, and Snape and Fudge said that they had be cunfunded, so how > would Fudge know Sirius would not attempt to kill Harry again, > because Fudge knew Sirius was after Peter in the first place, and > Fudge was trying to protect Peter. Peter had escaped, as Harry, > Hermione, and Ron told them. So it was safe for the dementors to go > back to Azkaban, Peter was safe from Sirius. The Dementors proved a danger to the students and Fudge had to pull them or the parents would have fits if it got out that they attempted to 'kiss' a student. > > Fifth in GoF, the pensieve incident, Karkaroff states "...we never > knew the names of everyone of our fellows...He alone knew who we all > were..." This statement gives further proof of the possibility of > Fudge being a DE, because if know one knew except LV, then one one > could rat him out. > This doesn't mean anything other then the DEs didn't know each other. I am guessing that this is not totally correct as LV called them by name AND some could likely recognized the voices of others. Karkaroff didn't strike me as that bright.. > Sixth in GoF, Crouch would have been getting orders from Fudge > during the Tri Wizard Tourney and that would be the reason he helped > Harry with the tasks, whether it was trough Cedrick, Moody, or > himself. Crouch told Cedrick how to read the second clue and in > turn knew Cedrick would tell Harry, since Harry had helped him with > the first task. The fact he had his own father under the Imperious Curse wouldn't be a factor in what he knew about the tasks, now would it? Or the fact that the teachers all knew what the tasks were? (sarcasm) > > Seventh in GoF, Moody was hired by DD, who else would know except > the MOM? Fudge then told Crouch Jr. to take Moody's place in order > to facilitate Harry winning the cup. Why else would Fudge have the > kiss administered so quickly to Crouch Jr. after his capture? So > Crouch Jr. could not tell of Fudge's involvement. The other teachers would know. At the MOM, Crouch Sr would know and maybe slip and mention it in front of Jr, who tells LV, etc. > > Eighth in GoF, LV states "...I shall have all my devoted servants > returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear." Could LV > be speaking of the creatures that Luna Lovegood says Fudge is > secretly breeding? If he IS breeding them, then there are others in the MOM who would know about it. The creatures LV is talking about are likely the giants, plus perhaps vampires or somesuch. Perhaps he knows enough about centaurs to trick them into fighting for him, without them knowing they are fighting FOR him. I think perhaps Bane might be under LV's payroll, promised something in exchange for turning the centaurs against humans? LV would not care if the centaurs were wiped out in the fight, as they would be just 'tools'. > > And finally in OotP, Umbridge, who sent the dementors to "kiss" > Harry. Umbridge, who had all the power to do what she wanted at > Hogwarts. Umbridge, who undermined the DADA class so the students > could not stand a chance in a battle against the dark arts. Which > would make it easier for LV to regain power, there would be no one > trained to stop him. Where did she receive this power? Fudge,he > apointed her high inquisitor at Hogwarts and he signed all the > decrie's she wanted. Also, Fudge's accusation of DD creating > an army to over throw him is just a clever cover up, (even though DD > turned the job down), so he could do as he pleased. I think Umbridge had her own agenda and was using Fudge's paranoia against him. Fudge is easily swayed by fear. No doubt Malfoy was bending his ear too and greasing his palm with lots of gold, but that makes Fudge a greedy, frightened fool, not a DE. His fear and greed make him easy to push around, but I think he would come unglued at the idea of outright joining LV. Its more likely he was doing LV's work through manipulation by Malfoy, then doing any of this because he was a DE. No, Fudge is not a DE, just a foolish man who can't see he is being used. Now that Malfoy was caught, maybe the shock will make him realize that DD was right all along and that Fudge could not stick his head in the sand and pretend that LV was not back in power. > > O.K., just one more. Why did Fudge try to punish Harry for the > underage use of magic so ferverently in the MOM? Harry had a > serious reason for that use of magic, but all the other times, > Dobbies levitation of the cake, Harry blowing up his aunt, had been > delt with very lightly. Fudge had a means to further discredit Harry > and possibly have him removed from the situation totally. By > further discredit of Harry, it is easier to discredit DD by > associating them so closely, ie; "DD must be crazy to believe this > boy. Look at all he's done." Fudge tried to use this to his > advantage through the local paper. Note that Malfoy was hanging around. Bet he was filling Fudge's head full of ideas about Harry while paying him 'handsome donations'. Just because he is a greedy politician, does not mean Fudge has the dark mark. > > One final question, does everyone think Fudge is an idiot? He did > become MOM some how. Do you think that he would be this clueless in > all the signs pointing to LV's resurection? Fudge knew, but he also > knew LV needed time to gain his army back, and Fudge was able to > deny his existence with plausible deniability. > Fudge was blinded by his own fears. He did not want to deal with the fact that LV had returned while he was the minister of magic, as many people might blame HIM for it. He feared that people wanted DD to take over as DD is the only one that LV fears. He tried to cover it up and pretend it wasn't happening, rather then face it. Fudge is a coward, not a DE. If he were a DE, the dementors would have left Askaban the moment that LV rose again. As for Umbridge, I think 'maybe' Malfoy suggested (with a little gold) that his good friend be allowed to be the new DEDE teacher. Or Umbridge was again the only one who applied. No, I don't think she is a DE, but she does know Malfoy, as evidenced by her comment to Snape. Knowing Malfoy doesn't make you a DE, but I bet his gold pulled a lot of strings with people who he felt could be controlled by their own fear or greed. Gold does in fact 'buy friends' to a point. What will happen now that Malfoy isn't there with the golden carrot to dangle in front of people, we can only guess. I would think things are going to get real nasty now.. Umbridge a DE? No. Shes too much a loose canon for LV's inner circle. but she can be controlled by her greed and wish for power. Also I think she would have stuck out like a sore thumb in the 'circle' in the graveyard. Controlled by a DE with promises of money or power, perhaps. But not knowingly working for LV. Fudge a DE? No. I do not feel he is knowingly working for LV, but being controlled by people who are excellent at manipulating others with money and playing on Fudge's fears of losing his position.. such as.. Malfoy.. Fudge greatly fears LV's return and would not knowingly join the DEs. As was said, not every evil person is a DE. To be a DE, you have to WANT to be one. There are apt to be many in the end who UNKNOWINGLY did things to help LV, who would have died rather then become a DE. LV and his DEs are very good at using others and manipulation. Even Harry has been manipulated by LV, but does that make him a Jr DE? > Severus "I'm not a DE, He is." Snape > > Jazmyn From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 18:52:40 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:52:40 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] A Trio of Trios? In-Reply-To: <000701c36add$7fc242a0$6401a8c0@helenw1> References: <001801c36b5e$255e22d0$62984cca@Monteith> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030825104222.00a6e530@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 78713 At 12:50 AM 8/25/2003 -0700, Helen R. Granberry wrote: > >Ginny/Neville/Luna (the trio that joined the usual trio at the MoM) > >Moody/Remus/Tonks (the trio at the station, looking out for Harry over >the summer) Hagrid/Minerva/Albus All present at Harry's delivery to the Dursleys. I like this trio better than the one that included SS, since I think of him as more of a loner. 2x Malfoy/Crabb/Goyle This is a trio in two generations. Fred/George/Lee...I think OoP made Lee sound rather cheerless after the twins departure. Lavender/Padme/Pavarti the three giggling girls Dean/Seamus/Neville seem to hang out quite a bit in the earlier books...though this has started to peter out. Fluffy...if you count each head as a separate being ;) Oh no...all these threes....I'm reminded of my junior year of high school....Herman Melville's Moby Dick (a.k.a. the great white bore!) From tallulah_sam at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 12:07:39 2003 From: tallulah_sam at hotmail.com (tallulah_sam) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:07:39 -0000 Subject: Prefects (was Re: Dumbledore's Tear) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78714 > "Richelle Votaw" wrote: > > The tear wasn't from the "why Harry wasn't prefect issue" but > > from the "enough responsibility" part. > > Leb: > Do you think that DD will try to atone for this by naming Harry as > a prefect for the next year instead of Ron? If that happens it > would cause a strain between the trio that they might not be able to > overcome. This is something that has bothered me for a while. Why was Ron ever made a prefect? Hermione you can understand kind of (very clever etc). But why Ron? and then also why Harry(if the suggestion comes true!)? Surely there are other more deserving people? Each are not the cleverest, they are not exactly reknown for sticking to school rules, never mind enforcing them and they are not on especially good terms with other houses (Slytherin in particular). Surely there must be other people who are just as clever,if not more, quieter people who do not break rules,who are not so openly hated? Wouldnt it be a good idea to give the badge to someone who wouldnt cause trouble between the houses? Sorry, its rather trivial I know but I honestly dont see why either Ron or Harry deserves the badge over somebody like Dean or Seamus? Tallulah (who sounds more angry then confused!!) From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Mon Aug 25 19:01:39 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:01:39 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78715 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > After OOTP, I don't buy that Lucius wants Voldemort back at all, in > any form. He has WAY too much to lose and not much to gain. I've > mentioned before that I believe he is back as a DE in name only, out > of fear of the consequences, but his involvement in COS and at the > Quidditch World Cup were strictly acts of terrorizing "Mudlbloods and > Muggles" one of his hobbies, apparently. No, Lucius will have much > more power in the Wizard World without Voldemort around to take over > the spotlight. This sounds like a very accurate reading of Lucius's personality. But I have to wonder, what does this do to Voldemort's plausibility as a villain? I mean, he has hardly any followers at the moment, and now we're reasoning that even the ones he has aren't really dedicated to him, but are just along for the ride. How far can this minimizing go before Voldemort becomes more of a bore than a threat? I'm already wondering when one of his plans will actually succeed. Now we have slipperly Lucius in Azkaban, and maybe partly relieved that he doesn't have to exert himself for Voldemort anymore; is Voldemort going to take over the world with just Bellatrix? Because it seems to be getting to that stage. I guess I'm just getting a little tired of everyone gasping with shock whenever Harry utters his name, and cringing in fear when nothing is actually happening. Wanda From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 19:33:05 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:33:05 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore in GoF In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78716 - "starboard_7" wrote: > I was recently rereading GoF for the 10th or so time, and something > stuck out to me that I hadn't noticed before... > > Towards the end of Goblet of Fire, after Harry returns from the > Portkey back to Hogwarts, he is talking to Dumbledore (who just > discovered Mad Eye Moody, etc). Harry tells Dumbledore that > Voldemort had gotten some of his [Harry's] blood and consequently > now has the same protection Harry has from his mother. After > learning this, Rowling writes (not exact quote) that Dumbledore > seemed to smile for a fleeting instant before responding that > Voldemort has "overcome that obstacle." > > Did anyone else wonder what this could mean? I noticed it about 5 > days ago and it has been bothering me a great deal... > I'd love to hear others' thoughts about it. This is the "gleam of triumph" quote that you're talking about, and yes, we've all noticed it. Do a search in the archives for "gleam of triumph" if you're curious. Or, we could all just start another discussion on it. I'm game if anyone else is. We've got a couple years to kill until the next book. Erin From ewdotson at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 25 19:34:47 2003 From: ewdotson at sbcglobal.net (ewdotson) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:34:47 -0000 Subject: Snape's "Worst" Memory (Was:Snape's Insignificant Question During Occlumency) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78717 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bookraptor11" wrote: [snipariooni] > > For one thing, is this really Snapes worst memory? Wouldn't the Prank > count? How about the catalyst(hello Bangers!) that caused Snape to > change sides? > Sorry, this is a somewhat old post, but it seems like a good launching point to reitierate my favorite theory. (Which was lamentably ignored in the rush of posts immediately following OOPs release. I'm hoping the distance of time will garner me more support. :) Has anyone else considered the possibility that this is Snapes worse memory becase it IS his memory of the Prank, or at least the begining of it? JKR makes a point of Lupin's shabbiness in the scene, having Harry wonder if it's close to a full moon. We know that James had to have bought a clue sometime before he graduates, and the Prank is the most likely event that would spark such a change. (Which doesnt leave a whole lot of time.) I would posit that if Snape had waited just a bit longer before pulling Harry out of the pensieve, we would have seen Sirius set up the prank. (The way I visualize it, it would involve a sudden apparent change of heart by Sirius having him stop James from tormenting Snape, pulling Snape off to the side, playing up his Black connection and telling Snape that to make up for this scene, he'd tell him how to join up with them on their monthly romps. (All the while winking at James.) (Which would then, outside of Snape's memories, be followed up by James and Remus telling Sirius that he was crazy and would get Snape killed. Followed of course by Remus' typical reaction to S&J's doing things they oughtn't and James vacillating until he decides that he has to stop Snape.) Thoughts, comments, ridicule? ewdotson From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 19:34:32 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:34:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78718 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "orourkeg" wrote: > Has is occurred to anyone that the relationship between Harry's wand > and Voldemort's wand may not be sheer coincidence? bboy_mn: YES. orourkeg: > ... discussion ... at the end of GoF that Dumbledore was aware of > the protection Harry's blood had given him. bboy_mn: Much more that a hint that he was aware, Dumbledore comes right out and tells us that he arranged it all. Actually, we find out the full details later, but that doesn't change the fact that Harry is protected not just by his mother's act, but by Dumbledore using that act along with Pertunia taking Harry in to invoke an ancient magical protection that prevents Harry from being harmed. The bulk of that protection is limited to Privet Drive, but I think the ancient protection of 'blood' does carries beyond Privet Drive. So, Dumbledore made this happen. > orourkeg: > If Dumbledore knew that, I would expect that he would also have > known what happens when two related wands do battle. > bboy_mn: I realize you are posing questions that are rhetorical, not meant to be answered directly, and are just trying to stimulate discussion, but I will answer you statement anyway. With absolute certainly Dumbledore knew because it was Dumbledore who told us. > Knowing the prophesy, might Dumbledore have commissioned the second > wand using Fawkes' tail feather? ... to expect that the wand would > ... choose Harry,.... This would be simply once more protection > that Dumbledore was able to convey to Harry. I don't think it has > been said anywhere that the two wands were created at the same time. > > orourkeg bboy_mn: True we don't know that those wands were created at the same time. Personally, I don't think that one detail matters because regardless of when the wand was created, Dumbledore could have influenced it's creation for the very reason you suggested. But he would have no way of knowing or influencing the match between that wand and Harry. No match between a wand and wizard is influenced by anything but the wand and the wizard themselves. It is clear as soon as Harry touches the wand that it truly does match Harry, so there was no trickery in getting him to take it. People wonder how Dumbledore can possible know as much as he appears to know. I think that is a combination of things. First, he is an old and wise man, with time and experience comes wizdom. Amoung other things, the wizdom to see the folly of younger men. Even at my age, I see young people doing things that they are convinced are the right and reasonable things to do, but with my experience and an endless list of my own mistakes, I can see how misguided they are. In situations like this, for the most part, the best you can do is step back and let them learn the lessons the hard way. So, Dumbledore appears to know a lot simply because he is wise and experience. His old eyes see with a different perspective than young innocent eyes. It's similar to the way your parents seem to have some magical knowledge of your activities when you've done something wrong. Of course, partly they are guessing, but mostly it's knowing you, and having been there themselves. Next, I think Dumbledore has a strong active intuition. He senses things and is able to use his wisdom, experience, and his intuitive sense to reach very likely conclusions about events. With the wisdom of age and a strong intuitive sense, I think he has a keen awareness of the world around him. To some extent, that's how he knew Harry and Ron were in Hargrid's hut hidden under the invisibility cloak. He may not be able to actually see them, but knowing human nature, and knowing Harry and his friend combined with a strong intuitive sense and a keen awareness of his surroundings allows Dumbledore to look directly at the spot where Harry is standing hidden under the invisibility cloak. So what's my point, I think Dumbledore could have had a strong intuitive sense about the future; almost like a premonition of what would happen. A premonition really is intuitive, it doesn't come with a lot of details. It's more of a feeling than a thought. So this premonition of the need for a Phoenix wand in the future could have lead him to commissioning it, and he could have done that before or after Harry was born. Note that Ollivander owled Dumbledore immediately when Harry was matched to that wand. That indicates that this match was a very significant event, and could easily have been an event that Dumbledore sensed was coming. If it were just a point of curiousity, Ollivander would have waited until the next convinient moment to casually mention it to Dumbledore. So, this particular match of wand as wizard was expected, to some extent, and it was considered very significant by all concerned. So, after all this rambling, to some extent, I am agreeing with you; it is very possible that Dumbledore has a hand in more than we have been priviledge to see. But at the same time, I have to concede that Dumbledore has no power to force these things to happen. All, he can do it try to prepare the way for Harry, and hope that the bits and pieces fall into place. Just a thought. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Mon Aug 25 19:41:13 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:41:13 -0000 Subject: Exploring prejudice WAS Re: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78719 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Jenny from Ravenclaw wrote: > >>JKR's hands are full with her exploration of > prejudice, slavery, choices, hate, family... > >> > edit > JKR is exploring prejudice, but has made a choice only available in > a fantasy world. She has chosen to create fictional prejudices. She > and her readers are therefore able to explore prejudice without real > world opinions getting in the way. > > The WW has no prejudice about religion, sexuality, skin colour. > Unlike the muggle world, these things are so unimportant that they > are barely referred to. > > But the WW *is* a hotbed of prejudice. The prejudice, where old pure > blood families are superior to `muggle borns' and mixed bloods has > enough of a correspondence in our world that we recognise it. It's > not completely unfamiliar. It has echoes. > >> > And the reader knows this. JKR has cunningly cast the reader as the > target. The WW prejudices are not against some nice safe `other'. > > They're against *you*. > > Pip!Squeak Aha! We have met the enemy and he is us - sort of. I agree that JKR is unlikely to bring recognisably real world prejudices into the series, but at the same time needs to create a bias in group identities that readers can explore. What is interesting is how she has set this up in the series. Unlike most purveyors of fantasy she has not placed Homo sapiens at or near the top of the hierarchy. It gets boring when H. sap. is considered to be the pinnacle of the evolutionary process. Understandable, but boring. After all, it's difficult to present a believable, valid character that is more intelligent than its inventor. JKR avoids the pitfalls by coming up with Homo magicus - same motivations, intelligence, etc. but different attributes. Magic becomes the divider between 'civilised' and the outer barbarians. Being magical, wizards, Goblins, Giants, Elves, the whole panoply, take precedence over the Muggle. It is mug blood that makes a mudblood. Within the elite, any self respecting supremacist needs an identifier, a way of recognising and being recognised by the other loonies. She won't use colour or Masonic handshakes (anyone come across a hand- shake in the Potterverse?). So, it's clothes. Anyone can recognise a clerical collar, a Sikh turban or a Hells Angel. Wearing robes on all occasions (Madam Malkin, robes for all occasions) is the key. Robes are the Brahmin thread of the WW. I'll lay long odds that any adult wizard seen in Muggle clothes is not pureblood. Curious that Umbridge wears her fluffy cardigan over her robes. Is this an idiosyncratic fashion statement or the sign of a mudblood? I had thought that, hating half breeds, our Dolly would self- justify the Cruciatus curse on Harry by arguing that, being of part Muggle ancestry, he wasn't a 'real' person. But if she is the same it would require a special species of schizophrenia, so I now think it's political expediency. The ends justify the means. She also likes to categorise all beings definitively. That way the bureaucratic machine can play around with absolute rules with no exceptions. Half breeds mess up the neat divisions. The fun result of all this authorial chicanery of course, is that JKR has somehow conned her public into accepting that they are the scum of the earth, and liking it. Low blow, Jo! But I love it. Kneasy From erinellii at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 19:43:29 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:43:29 -0000 Subject: Generational Parallels In-Reply-To: <161174005972.20030825102943@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78720 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Monday, August 25, 2003, 7:04:56 AM, Serena wrote: > > > If anything, you can say > > that current generation has rebeled against the preset role, making it their own. Therefore, they are not doomed to repeat the mistakes of the older generation. Neville won't betray the trio, Draco either won't join the DE or will but not be redeemed, Hermione will not be an outcast, Ron will not go to Azkaban, and Harry won't die defending his son. > Susanne wrote: > What I don't understand is, why they should have a preset > role, and be doomed to repeat the mistakes others made, in > the first place. > > Where does this idea come from? It's a popular theme in literature. Ever read "Wuthering Heights"? Erin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 19:47:10 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:47:10 -0000 Subject: Prefects (was Re: Dumbledore's Tear) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78721 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tallulah_sam" wrote: > > This is something that has bothered me for a while. Why was Ron ever > made a prefect? But why Ron? and then also why Harry? Surely there > are other more deserving people? ...edited... > > > Sorry, its rather trivial I know but I honestly dont see why either > Ron or Harry deserves the badge over somebody like Dean or Seamus? > > Tallulah bboy_mn: Keep in mind that we only have a field of 10 people to chose from. None of them beyond Harry, Ron, and Hermione have distinquished themselves in any way; they are all ordinary students. If there was trouble in the castle, like a DE raid, would you prefer to put the fate of the underclassmen in Ron's hands or Seamus's hands? Personally, Ron has a lot more experience, and a proved track record in crisis; so my vote goes to him. If my kids were underclassmen, I can think of no one more likely to keep their head in a crisis and to act for the greater good than the Trio. More specifically, why Ron or Harry rather than Dean or Seamus? What have Dean or Seamus ever done? How have they distinquished themselves in any way? Have they ever shown the ability to take the initiative in a crisis and do what has to be done? No, I don't think so. While Harry and Ron may have bent a few rules, it was always for the greater good, and they alway took the action that needed to be take rather than waiting around to be told what to do next. Some people are Generals and some people are soldiers; Harry, Ron, and Hermione, whether they like it or not, are fated to be Generals. Just a thought. bboy_mn From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 20:00:48 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:00:48 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: <3F4A56E6.6030604@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78722 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > severusbook4 wrote: > (snip) > > > > Second in PoA, the dementors left their posts to invade the > > Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were > > all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's > > request? We think so. > > Its been made clear that the dementors worked for LV. Fudge was quite > shocked to think they would attack a child and pulled them from the > school after the attack by the lake. He was too sure that the MOM could > control the dementors. > > The later attack on Harry was ordered by Umbridge, not Fudge. > > > > > Third in PoA, the dementors try to administer the kiss to Harry and > > perhaps to Hermione. Would the dementors act on their own accord, > > and go against orders? The only one that was to get the kiss > > immediately was Sirius, but there is no mention of this. The > > dementors receive their orders from who? Fudge, that's who. And > > how would he know that the dementors had tried to "kiss" Harry in > > the first place, the only one who knew was Harry and he remained > > unconscious until Fudge had already told DD about the > > attempted "kiss". Fudge knew because he had orered it, and to save > > face, he had to order the dementors back to Azkaban, even after > > Sirius had escaped once again. > > Its clear that they would not only go against orders of the MOM, but > they even deserted the MOM to join LV. Its clear that the dementors are > on LV's side, not Fudge's. > > > > > Fourth in PoA, If Fudge thought Harry and friends were actually > > under Sirius' control, he would still believe Harry and friends were > > in danger from Sirius, and the dementors would have remained, even > > against DD wishes. Harry and friends were the only one's defending > > Sirius, and Snape and Fudge said that they had be cunfunded, so how > > would Fudge know Sirius would not attempt to kill Harry again, > > because Fudge knew Sirius was after Peter in the first place, and > > Fudge was trying to protect Peter. Peter had escaped, as Harry, > > Hermione, and Ron told them. So it was safe for the dementors to go > > back to Azkaban, Peter was safe from Sirius. > > The Dementors proved a danger to the students and Fudge had to pull them > or the parents would have fits if it got out that they attempted to > 'kiss' a student. > > > > > Fifth in GoF, the pensieve incident, Karkaroff states "...we never > > knew the names of everyone of our fellows...He alone knew who we all > > were..." This statement gives further proof of the possibility of > > Fudge being a DE, because if know one knew except LV, then one one > > could rat him out. > > > > This doesn't mean anything other then the DEs didn't know each other. I > am guessing that this is not totally correct as LV called them by name > AND some could likely recognized the voices of others. Karkaroff didn't > strike me as that bright.. > > > Sixth in GoF, Crouch would have been getting orders from Fudge > > during the Tri Wizard Tourney and that would be the reason he helped > > Harry with the tasks, whether it was trough Cedrick, Moody, or > > himself. Crouch told Cedrick how to read the second clue and in > > turn knew Cedrick would tell Harry, since Harry had helped him with > > the first task. > > The fact he had his own father under the Imperious Curse wouldn't be a > factor in what he knew about the tasks, now would it? Or the fact that > the teachers all knew what the tasks were? (sarcasm) > > > > > Seventh in GoF, Moody was hired by DD, who else would know except > > the MOM? Fudge then told Crouch Jr. to take Moody's place in order > > to facilitate Harry winning the cup. Why else would Fudge have the > > kiss administered so quickly to Crouch Jr. after his capture? So > > Crouch Jr. could not tell of Fudge's involvement. > > The other teachers would know. At the MOM, Crouch Sr would know and > maybe slip and mention it in front of Jr, who tells LV, etc. > > > > > Eighth in GoF, LV states "...I shall have all my devoted servants > > returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear." Could LV > > be speaking of the creatures that Luna Lovegood says Fudge is > > secretly breeding? > > If he IS breeding them, then there are others in the MOM who would know > about it. The creatures LV is talking about are likely the giants, plus > perhaps vampires or somesuch. Perhaps he knows enough about centaurs to > trick them into fighting for him, without them knowing they are fighting > FOR him. I think perhaps Bane might be under LV's payroll, promised > something in exchange for turning the centaurs against humans? LV would > not care if the centaurs were wiped out in the fight, as they would be > just 'tools'. > > > > > And finally in OotP, Umbridge, who sent the dementors to "kiss" > > Harry. Umbridge, who had all the power to do what she wanted at > > Hogwarts. Umbridge, who undermined the DADA class so the students > > could not stand a chance in a battle against the dark arts. Which > > would make it easier for LV to regain power, there would be no one > > trained to stop him. Where did she receive this power? Fudge,he > > apointed her high inquisitor at Hogwarts and he signed all the > > decrie's she wanted. Also, Fudge's accusation of DD creating > > an army to over throw him is just a clever cover up, (even though DD > > turned the job down), so he could do as he pleased. > > I think Umbridge had her own agenda and was using Fudge's paranoia > against him. Fudge is easily swayed by fear. No doubt Malfoy was bending > his ear too and greasing his palm with lots of gold, but that makes > Fudge a greedy, frightened fool, not a DE. His fear and greed make him > easy to push around, but I think he would come unglued at the idea of > outright joining LV. Its more likely he was doing LV's work through > manipulation by Malfoy, then doing any of this because he was a DE. No, > Fudge is not a DE, just a foolish man who can't see he is being used. > Now that Malfoy was caught, maybe the shock will make him realize that > DD was right all along and that Fudge could not stick his head in the > sand and pretend that LV was not back in power. > > > > > > O.K., just one more. Why did Fudge try to punish Harry for the > > underage use of magic so ferverently in the MOM? Harry had a > > serious reason for that use of magic, but all the other times, > > Dobbies levitation of the cake, Harry blowing up his aunt, had been > > delt with very lightly. Fudge had a means to further discredit Harry > > and possibly have him removed from the situation totally. By > > further discredit of Harry, it is easier to discredit DD by > > associating them so closely, ie; "DD must be crazy to believe this > > boy. Look at all he's done." Fudge tried to use this to his > > advantage through the local paper. > > Note that Malfoy was hanging around. Bet he was filling Fudge's head > full of ideas about Harry while paying him 'handsome donations'. Just > because he is a greedy politician, does not mean Fudge has the dark mark. > > > > > One final question, does everyone think Fudge is an idiot? He did > > become MOM some how. Do you think that he would be this clueless in > > all the signs pointing to LV's resurection? Fudge knew, but he also > > knew LV needed time to gain his army back, and Fudge was able to > > deny his existence with plausible deniability. > > > > Fudge was blinded by his own fears. He did not want to deal with the > fact that LV had returned while he was the minister of magic, as many > people might blame HIM for it. He feared that people wanted DD to take > over as DD is the only one that LV fears. He tried to cover it up and > pretend it wasn't happening, rather then face it. Fudge is a coward, > not a DE. If he were a DE, the dementors would have left Askaban the > moment that LV rose again. As for Umbridge, I think 'maybe' Malfoy > suggested (with a little gold) that his good friend be allowed to be the > new DEDE teacher. Or Umbridge was again the only one who applied. No, > I don't think she is a DE, but she does know Malfoy, as evidenced by her > comment to Snape. Knowing Malfoy doesn't make you a DE, but I bet his > gold pulled a lot of strings with people who he felt could be controlled > by their own fear or greed. Gold does in fact 'buy friends' to a point. > > What will happen now that Malfoy isn't there with the golden carrot to > dangle in front of people, we can only guess. I would think things are > going to get real nasty now.. > > Umbridge a DE? No. Shes too much a loose canon for LV's inner circle. > but she can be controlled by her greed and wish for power. Also I think > she would have stuck out like a sore thumb in the 'circle' in the > graveyard. Controlled by a DE with promises of money or power, perhaps. > But not knowingly working for LV. > > Fudge a DE? No. I do not feel he is knowingly working for LV, but being > controlled by people who are excellent at manipulating others with > money and playing on Fudge's fears of losing his position.. such as.. > Malfoy.. Fudge greatly fears LV's return and would not knowingly join > the DEs. > > As was said, not every evil person is a DE. To be a DE, you have to > WANT to be one. There are apt to be many in the end who UNKNOWINGLY did > things to help LV, who would have died rather then become a DE. LV and > his DEs are very good at using others and manipulation. Even Harry has > been manipulated by LV, but does that make him a Jr DE? > > > Severus "I'm not a DE, He is." Snape > > > > > > > Jazmyn But Fudge is a known lover of pure-blood as stated by DD. And if I am not mistaken Snape even showed fudge the infamous Dark Mark the proof LV was back. Fudge's denial imho is just clever cover up. If LV came to power, and Fudge was not a DE, he would have much more to lose! Fran From shokoono at gmx.de Mon Aug 25 20:12:32 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:12:32 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore in GoF References: Message-ID: <004301c36b45$b95d97e0$e4f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 78723 > > I was recently rereading GoF for the 10th or so time, and > something > > stuck out to me that I hadn't noticed before... > > > > Towards the end of Goblet of Fire, after Harry returns from the > > Portkey back to Hogwarts, he is talking to Dumbledore (who just > > discovered Mad Eye Moody, etc). Harry tells Dumbledore that > > Voldemort had gotten some of his [Harry's] blood and consequently > > now has the same protection Harry has from his mother. After > > learning this, Rowling writes (not exact quote) that Dumbledore > > seemed to smile for a fleeting instant before responding that > > Voldemort has "overcome that obstacle." > > > > Did anyone else wonder what this could mean? I noticed it about 5 > > days ago and it has been bothering me a great deal... > > I'd love to hear others' thoughts about it. > > > > "starboard_7" > Me: I am just remebering what DD says using these mashines after Harry "dreamed" Arthur Weasly being attaced... In essence devided... could that mean that the connection between them became closer than the scar and its follows? Could that also mean that it gave Harry also somthing (alchemistic) he could be using in the following books? If it is so, I wonder what it would be. DD looking older after this nanosecond of smiling could also be that now the prophecy is in progress to be fullfilled and that the first thaught of DD's would be that from now on it couldn't be long to get rid of LV but than remembered that this also means that Harry would die (as the prophecy says). This could affect him so much that Harry associated it with looking old. These fellings of DD's could also become more strong because of Sirius being there, too. It could remind DD that also Sirius needs to know one day that his best friend's son (the maybe only reason for him to keep on living) is to die soon. He might worry about this man for I think he also likes Sirius a lot. So there are a couple of things being interwoven into each other that might count... Yours Finchen From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Mon Aug 25 20:15:22 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:15:22 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Draco, or Pride and Prejudice (non-SHIP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78724 I've been going over Pip's recent post on prejudice(78680), and Kneasy's post on anti-Muggleism (78606)(1) quite a bit today, and considering the choices each of the characters makes to align themselves to one side or the other: racist, not racist. Kneasy asked: <> It's often struck me as remarkable that Harry as a child doesn't react more strongly against Muggles when he discovers himself to be a different kind of human being. Growing up, as one listie so wisely pointed out recently (2), Harry has been the victim of blood- prejudice. He is then immediately plunged into a world which is just as casually racist, yet tipped in his favour. Even those characters we now know as very firmly "good" express strong anti-Muggle sentiments. Professor McGonagall, for example, the first non-Muggle to speak on the subject in series, says: *** ` ? even the Muggles have noticed something's going on. It was on their news Well, they're not completely stupid. They were bound to notice something.' (PS, p13) and "You don't mean ? you *can't* mean the people who live *here*? You couldn't find two people who are less like us." (p15) *** Within McGonagall's sphere of tolerance, then, Muggles can be accepted if they are "like us" ? ie, if they assimilate themselves to values approved of by "our" society. (Ironic, given that what she disapproves of is Dudley's violent clamouring for sweets, a behavioural pattern which reoccurs, in differing forms, in the acts of various wizards throughout the series.) The first explanation of the divide Harry himself witnesses is Hagrid's: *** `A Muggle,' said Hagrid. `It's what we call non-magic folk like them. An' it's your bad luck you grew up in a family of the biggest Muggles I ever laid eyes on."(p43) *** Here, it is indicated to Harry that he is of the superior side, and his hated relatives ("your bad luck") are inferior. He is offered the keys to a world in which he can obtain power over the Dursleys, in which, for the first time in his life, he will be treated with respect. And yet, his hatred of the Dursleys and Dursleyism, the only form of morality he has ever been exposed to, and that which he has spent his life reacting against, doesn't spill over into his own ethical choice, as happened with Tom Riddle. When tested by Draco Malfoy, the first non-Muggle child of his own age he meets, Harry suddenly, shockingly, reveals himself to be a thoroughly decent human being. Perhaps *too* decent, as many list members have often speculated. With all this in mind, I went back and re-read that first meeting scene again. Apologies for quoting at length. PS, pp60- 61. *** `Hello,' said the boy. `Hogwarts too?' `Yes,' said Harry. `My father's next door buying my books and mother's up the street looking at wands,' said the boy. He had a bored, drawling voice. `then I'm going to drag them off to look at racing brooms. I don't see why first-years can't have their own. I think I'll bully father into getting me one and I'll smuggle it in somehow.' Harry was strongly reminded of Dudley. `Have you got your own broom?' the boy went on. `No,' said Harry. `Play Quidditch at all?' `No,' Harry said again, wondering what on earth Quidditch could be. `*I* do - Father says it's a crime if I'm not picked to play for my own house, and I must say I agree. Know what house you'll be in yet?' `No,' said Harry, feeling more stupid by the minute. `Well, no one really knows until they get there, do they, but I know I'll be in Slytherin, all our family have been ? imagine being in Hufflepuff, I think I'd leave, wouldn't you?' `Mmm,' said Harry, wishing he could say something a bit more interesting. `I say, look at that man!' said the boy suddenly, pointing towards the front window. Hagrid was standing there, grinning at Harry, and pointing at two large ice-creams to show he couldn't come in. `That's Hagrid,' said Harry, pleased to know something the boy didn't. `He works at Hogwarts.' `Oh,' said the boy. `I've heard of him. He's sort of a servant, isn't he?' `He's the gamekeeper,' said Harry. He was liking the boy less and less every second. `Yes, exactly. I heard he's a sort of *savage* - lives in a hut in the school grounds and every now and then he gets drunk, tries to do magic, and ends up setting fire to his bed.' `I think he's brilliant,' said Harry, coldly. `*Do* you?' said the boy, with a slight sneer. `Why is he with you? Where are your parents?' `They're dead,' said Harry, shortly. He didn't much feel like going into the matter with this boy. `Oh, sorry,' said the other, not sounding sorry at all. `But they were *our * kind, weren't they?' `They were a witch and a wizard, if that's what you mean.' `'I really don't think they should let the other sort in, do you? They're just not the same, they've never been brought up to know our ways. Some of them have never even heard of Hogwarts until they get the letter, imagine. I think they should keep it in the old wizarding families. What's your surname, anyway?' *** What's interesting to note is that, initially, Harry doesn't respond to Draco's prejudice simply because he exhibits prejudice. What he responds to first is Draco's *privilege* ? because he is first struck by the resemblance to his hated cousin (who Harry has always been jealous of ? we only find out Harry's desire for Dudley's materialistic life in the Occlumency lesson where Snape uncovers Harry's burning envy of Dudley's new bike.). Then, he responds to the fact that Draco makes him feel ignorant and disenfranchised within his idyllic new world, which becomes a game of one-upmanship. Harry is not merely happy to have something to contribute to the conversation, which would set him on an equal level with the stranger, he is pleased because his knowledge exceeds Draco's. After this, he responds to the manifestation of Draco's privilege in his scorn of Hagrid, because one of his friends, his one source of knowledge about his new world, is threatened, and placed on a level (sort of servant) equivalent to his own in the Muggle world. His final response is to Draco's prejudice where he himself is the (unconscious) object (PS, p61): *** Harry was rather quiet `What's up?' said Hagrid. `Nothing,' Harry lied When they had left the shop, he said, `Hagrid, what's Quidditch?' `Blimey, Harry, I keep forgettin' how little yeh know ? not knowin' about Quidditch!' `Don't make me feel worse,' said Harry. He told Hagrid about [Draco]. ` ?and he said people from Muggle families shouldn't even be allowed in - ' *** What Harry reacts to in Draco's spiel are the parts which involve a slight to his own self-hood ? ie "'I really don't think they should let the other sort in, do you? They're just not the same, they've never been brought up to know our ways. Some of them have never even heard of Hogwarts until they get the letter, imagine '" Escape from his hated life has magically appeared and is now threatened, and this, more than anything else, is instrumental in the choice of ethical stance Harry later makes. *** `I heard you went to live with Muggles,' said Ron. `What are they like?' `Horrible ? well, not all of them. My aunt and uncle and cousin are though ' (PS, p75) *** Harry's response here is immediately reconsidered. Yet Harry, as we know, has no experience of non-horrible Muggles. He only interacts with the Dursleys, Aunt Marge, some nasty teachers at school, and Dudley's gang: *** At school, Harry had no-one, Everybody knew that Dudley's gang hated that odd Harry Potter in his baggy old clothes and broken glasses, and no-one liked to disagree with Dudley's gang.(PS, p27)*** Harry, therefore, is unconsciously reforming his experience into motivation, that when Draco appears again, a few pages later, Harry can make an overt statement of his own allegiance: " `I can tell who the wrong sort are for myself, thanks.'" (p81), as a direct rebuff to Draco and whatever he stands for. Harry's initial impulse still underlies the five years of rivalry the reader has witnessed ? see PoA, p181: *** ` I reckon it's time you ordered a new broom, Harry. There's an order form on the back of *Which Broomstick* you could get a Nimbus Two Thousand and One, like Malfoy's got.' `I'm not buying anything Malfoy thinks is good,' said Harry flatly. *** Essentially, then, Harry's political awareness to prejudice originated as a defensive manoeuvre, and perpetuates as a gut reaction. He exhibits similar behaviour in OoP, where his reaction against Umbridge originates in the fact that she is against *him* (that and the fact that she's physically unattractive, I suspect boys! ) ? no evidence of progression made from his first ever Potions lesson, where Harry's dislike of Snape grows as a defensive reaction to Snape's unfair treatment of him ? a small step from this to accusing him of being an agent of Voldemort, and then again to "never being able to forgive Snape" when he requires a handy scapegoat for Sirius' death . Ditto Umbridge. It's Hermione, obviously more politically aware, who assists the narrative in building up a clear picture of Umbridge's racist beliefs in the scene where she alerts the others to Umbridge undermining Hagrid. *** Hermione had tears of fury in her eyes now. `You hag, you evil hag!' she whispered, as Umbridge walked towards Pansy Parkinson. `I know what you're doing, you awful, twisted, vicious -' `That foul, lying, twisted old gargoyle!' stormed Hermione half an hour later `You see what she's up to? It's her thing about half- breeds all over again -' (OoP, pp396-7) *** Interestingly, here, Hermione's reaction is primarily emotional. Yes, Hermione could be moved by the plight of her friend, as she has consistently proved herself very considerate of Hagrid's needs. However, it's important to note that Hermione is more attuned to prejudice ? any form of prejudice ? than the other two. Remember, she's also the wench with the wit to engineer Umbridge's downfall by her own racism. I was interested to note that there was a paper given at Nimbus (or scheduled to be given at Nimbus before OoP came out) on Hermione's involvement in SPEW being a manifestation of liberal white womanhood, something she is easily distracted from by her romantic involvement with Viktor Krum. Of the principal characters, Hermione probably has the most in common with the majority of her readers ? an affluent, middle-class, (Muggle-born) reasonably privileged child (who likes reading). And yet, as Pip pointed out in her earlier post, this is precisely the demographic which finds itself Other to the WW's prejudice, just as Hermione does in CoS. It's Hermione who introduces the reader to the emotional impact of the WW's particular prejudice, thus involving the reader (by identification) in the theme within their own personal level, and forcing them to confront their own prejudice, as (at the very least) a defensive manoeuvre. Hermione may be a perfect specimen of liberal white womanhood within our own, Muggle sphere, but within the WW she is something set apart. I was particularly interested in the parallels Abigail's recent conceptual art work of a post drew between her and Lupin (yet more extensive quoting, I'm afraid): <> And of course, much has been made recently of Lupin's self-interest on list. Another defensive manoeuvre? I wonder if Hermione's ethical/political stance is, unconsciously, equally self-defensive? Hermione discovers herself in a world which is perhaps not so inclined to accept her as one of its own. Naturally more confident than Harry, she responds not with resentment, but by trying to change the ethical basis that world is founded upon, encountering as much casual prejudice (ie from Gred and Forge: `They're *happy*, Hermione! They love serving humans' ? I'm currently GoF-less, so have no idea if that quote is correct) as exists towards her and her kind from even the most well-intentioned of wizards (McGonagall, Molly, even, as Kneasy pointed out, Arthur: << Arthur Weasley's fascination may be well meant, but you just know he'd love to put the Grangers under the microscope. Just like any animal behaviourist studying chimpanzees "Oh look! they can do that! It's almost as if they were human!">>) It may well be our choices that show what we really are, but I feel that JKR understands rather better than many that those choices, regardless of their outcomes, are always motivated by the basic human drive for self-preservation. It all appears to come down to circumstance after all. Kirstini 1) Despite the slight to my own, special little theory. But hey, we had words, I forgave him. Self-motivatedly. 2) Apologies ? I can't find this post. Particular apologies if it was yours, Pip, as I suspect it may be. My computer won't let me check it, for some reason. There were loads of bits I'd love to have quoted form it, as I thought it was utterly brilliant. From mbush at lainc.com Mon Aug 25 20:23:24 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:23:24 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78725 > Melinda wrote: > > >I think her presence at Hogwarts for 39 years is a clue that > >Dumbledore was no longer Transfiguration teacher in 1946 because he > >became headmaster - and there must be some importance to that. > Margaret wrote: > > Dumbledore can't have been headmaster since 1946, or Lupin's > statements in PoA don't make any sense. > > "Before the Wolfsbane Potion was discovered, however, I became a full > fledged monster once a month. It seemed impossible that I would be > able to come to Hogwarts. Other parents weren't likely to want their > children exposed to me. > > But the Dumbledore became headmaster, and he was sympathetic." > (PoA pg 353 US hardcover) > > This seems to indicate that Dumbledore became Headmaster just before > Lupin turned 11, which would mean he's only been Headmaster since the > late 60's- 1970 (going by the Lexicon's dates for MWPP school years). > > Now Mtwelovett: I think you may be on to something here. If the math, and assumptions are correct, and McGonagall was at Hogwarts with Tom Riddle that is very interesting indeed. I had been wondering if we would see anyone else from his time and I admit, I hadn't thought of her in that capacity. I agree that I don't believe Dumbledore to have been Headmaster since 1946, but those who pointed out that McGonagall was likely taught transfiguration by Dumbledore bring up another very interesting point. (what about Arthur and Molly? he was around in some capacity when they were in school as well.) What I have found significant about McGonagall's years of service at Hogwarts was that it is possible, and likely that Dumbledore was not the one who appointed her. Which may be what Umbridge was trying to discover anyway (who was appointed by Dumbledore and who wasn't, but he has "kept around") She definitely holds some information for us since she knew James and Lily well from her reaction to their death in SS. Is she a major link here? At least in terms of a timeline or information provider? If she is determined to "coach" Harry on things he needs to become an Auror, then we should be seeing a lot more of her in the coming books. Mtwelovett From gbannister10 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 20:28:01 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:28:01 -0000 Subject: Gay characters (Was "Harry's Sexual preference") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78726 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lee" wrote: > *snip* Lee: > I'm here to argue, that in Order of the Pheonix, Rowling has already > touched upon the subject of gay love/innuendos in a style that > reflects how a 15 year old WOULD be faced with the subject. > > In chapter one, Dudley Demented, Dudley confronts Harry and accuses > him as having a boyfriend, (Cedric, who Harry has been dreaming about > no thanks to Voldemort) > > Harry is angry that Dudley would try to abuse Cedric's memory and > death into such mundane terms as being a boyfriend. > Geoff: OTOH, Harry has been dreaming about the events of June and obviously Cedric features significantly in these. I don't think this necessarily indicates a gay feeling towards Cedric. Lee: > Harry's feelings obviously go deeper. From the moment we meet Cedric, > we learn from Harry's perspective that the boy is good looking, a > much better, "Champion" figure than Harry could ever be. Harry seems > to be harbouring feelings of resentment, begrudging friendship, and > after his death, a pang of regret, possibly love, and is very VERY > quick to defend Cedric, who has died with Harry as the sole (light) > witness. Its something very personal to him. > Geoff: When I was younger, I often envied guys who were better at things (esp. sport) or were better looking than me, because I had to work harder at these things. I'm not knocking the idea but how many of us go around during an average day, meeting people in business or shops or casually and start thinking "is he gay?" OK, the suggestions may be there, in the way a character speaks or acts or moves but it isn't necessarily important to the storyline. From constancevigilance at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 20:33:06 2003 From: constancevigilance at yahoo.com (Susan Miller) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:33:06 -0000 Subject: FILK: Hello, Snuffles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78727 The scene - a lonely room on Privet Drive Hello, Snuffles (to the tune of Hello, Muddah, Hello, Faddah) Hello Snuffles, whatcha doing Since the Voldie Great Renewing? What's the number? I will phone ya I'm so sick of hiding here in the begonia. How's the Burrow? Warm and tender? Where's Mundungus? On a bender? I'm behaving, don't remind me. Please, Godfather, no advice, just come and find me. I'm so angry, stuck at Privet. Think it's easy? Come and live it! Longer letters, be a pal, Ron. I'll send Hedwig to help out with beak and tal-on. Dear Hermione, feeling spellish? Life with Dudley sure is hellish. In a play park, on Walk Wisteria If you "Sonorus" and speak up I'll surely hear ya. Res-cue me, I'm ready early, Get me out, I hate the Dursleys, Don't leave me out in the suburbs, where I might go barking crazy there. Take me home, I'm begging, Molly Just find me an out-bound trolley. I can't live with Vernon's Muggle freaks, I've been here six long weeks. Wait a minute, what's that crashing? Is it robbers come for slashing? Mad-Eye Moody, without Barty! It's some friends who organized a rescue party! Happy faces, here to spring me. What information did you bring me? Pack to fly with Tonks and Lupin Good-by messy room and no more droopin'. ~ Constance Vigilance From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 20:56:05 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:56:05 -0000 Subject: Gay characters (Was "Harry's Sexual preference") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78728 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lee" wrote: > > *snip* > Lee: > > Harry's feelings obviously go deeper. From the moment we meet > Cedric, > > we learn from Harry's perspective that the boy is good looking, a > > much better, "Champion" figure than Harry could ever be. Harry > seems > > to be harbouring feelings of resentment, begrudging friendship, and > > after his death, a pang of regret, possibly love, and is very VERY > > quick to defend Cedric, who has died with Harry as the sole (light) > > witness. Its something very personal to him. > > > > Haggridd; All of the items you mention are more easily explained by Harry's envy of Cedric and Cho, her imagined preference for Cedric, as are the feeilngs you attribute to Harry. I agree that these instances and these feelings can be found in the book, but they are all attributable to an insecure straight boy beginning adolescence. I think is is a long stretch to attribute any of these feelings to homosexuality, latent or overt. If there were even one overt manifestation by any same sex pair in the book, just one boy-on-boy or girl-on-girl kiss, I would more readily accept your thesis, but there is not. JKR readily writes openly of straight romantic relationships: Percy and Penelope, Draco and Pansy-- even Uncle Vernon and Aunt Petunia-- but nowhere is there a gay relationship to indicate that she ever meant the reader to think of homosexual ideation in other contexts. Slash fanfics is another matter, but I don't see it in canon. > Geoff: > When I was younger, I often envied guys who were better at things > (esp. sport) or were better looking than me, because I had to work > harder at these things. > > I'm not knocking the idea but how many of us go around during an > average day, meeting people in business or shops or casually and > start thinking "is he gay?" . From sydenmill at msn.com Mon Aug 25 21:17:50 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:17:50 -0000 Subject: Heliopaths Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78730 OOP, ch. 16, pg. 345, American edition: Luna Lovegood speaking: " '...Afterall, Cornelius Fudge has got his own private army...Yes, he's got an army of heliopaths. They're spirits of fire... Great tall flaming creatures that gallop across the ground, burning everything in front of ---' " OOP, ch. 34, pg. 775 "Once more the wall spun and became still again. Harry approached a door at random and pushed. It did not move... " 'Sirus's knife,' said Harry, and he pulled it out from inside his robes and slid it into the crack between the door and the wall. The others all watched eagerly as he ran it from top to bottom, withdrew it, and then flung his shoulder again at the door. It remained as firmly shut as ever. What was more, when Harry looked down at the knife, he saw that the blade had melted." pg. 776 " 'You know what could be in there?' said Luna eagerly as the wall started to spin yet again." Now, everyone assumes that the door Dumbledore describes to Harry later in the story as, " 'a room in the Department of Mysteries that is kept locked at all times,' " (pg. 843) is this same door that melted Harry's knife. Nope. Different door. Of the dozen or so doors that the DA had to chose from that fateful night, they didn't try all of them, only about half. So, it is quite logical that more than just one room is "kept locked at all times." Dumbledore was just describing ONE of them to Harry, the "you've got it and Voldemort doesn't, room." Heliopaths could be behind Door Number 3, for instance. Besides, what about this power that Harry has (love, hope, etc, etc -- whatever it is) would melt a knife? I think Fudge DOES have an army of heliopaths, just as Luna describes -- AND, they were in that room that melted Harry's knife. How does Luna know about them? She might be our missing SEER; we have all tried to pin that gift on Ron (and, he may have some talent in that direction, we shall see) but Luna has much much more to show us. Bohcoo From liliana at worldonline.nl Mon Aug 25 21:31:13 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:31:13 -0000 Subject: Wizards regarding Muggles (was:Re: TBAY: Kirstini's big Theorising Adventure) In-Reply-To: <657A4846-D666-11D7-9AF2-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78731 B Arrowsmith wrote: This one caused me to raise one eyebrow - slowly. I've no > problem with the premise of the blurring of moral boundaries dividing > good from bad with a symphony of greys taking over from moral > certainties. What did surprise me was that Kirstini considered it to be > a fairly recent phenomenon. I think it's been there from Book 1, chap. > 1. > It just wasn't restricted to individuals. >It also goes much further than any of the individuals that we have > enjoyed dissecting and theorising about. The whole concept of WW and > Muggledom is an exercise in double standards and dubious tenets. > > Consider, what is DD's first action? To drop a WW cuckoo into a Muggle > nest. It doesn't matter that it's unwelcome, inconvenient or > unreasonable, the WW has its agenda and Muggles are there to be used > and abused. > > The unwritten thread that winds its way unbroken through the books is > that Muggles are the unconsidered lumpen proletariat, with no say, no > worthwhile opinion and are to be abused, patronised or laughed at as > is appropriate. The need to enact a Muggle Protection Act should tell > you all you need to know. The WW sees itself as an elite, a patronising > elite, a possibly dangerous elite, who regard Muggle laws or norms as > totally irrelevant to their lives or behaviour even though they live > within the society of Muggles. I have also been disturbed by the fact that Muggles are considered as.. well, something Wizards have to put up with, but have nothing to offer wizards in return. The remark made by Hagrid made in PS/SS (pg 51, UK pb edition) as to why wizards want to be left alone: '...everyone'd be wantin' magical solutons to their problems. Nah, we're best left alone'. Considering the problems the WW has (Voldemort, bigotry, bureaucracy, to name a few) they could perhaps learn from the Muggles? For example, as someone with a legal background I'm especially disgusted with the WW legal system which allows someone who has made the law, be a member of the jury who decides in specific circumstances and who is also the persecutor (Fudge in Harry's hearing in OOtP). I'm not so sure about the specifics of the legal system in the UK, but in Western Europe (I'm from the Netherlands) and the US, there are three separate authorities who deal with the law (in simple words:the makers, the persecutors and the judges). Really something the WW could learn from Muggles?! But what really frightens me most is that during Voldemort's first reign of terror a lot of Muggles were killed as well ("Mugglesport"?). And then ofcourse that, hum, incident in GOF, during the WC of Quidditch. A taste of what is to come? Now Voldemort is really back and how will Muggles be protected? No mention in the Daily Prophet article (OOtP, pg 745 UK pb edition) that the Prime Minister has been informed, has he? Only elementary home and personal defence for wizards is being issued. I don't like that at all. Gives me the feeling (which I rather not entertain) that the Muggles were right after all to prosecute wizards in the past (No, I don't even want to start thinking that). > > Humph! I hope the tone eventually changes for the better. > > Kneasy I agree, but I have very, very little hope. Laylalast (aka Lilian) From silmariel at telefonica.net Mon Aug 25 21:14:30 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:14:30 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308252314.30572.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78732 > Severus: > Didn't he also feel > joy during or soon after his dreams when LV was inflicting pain > or death on some one? Wasn't LV's happiness or anger projected > to Harry through these dreams? If I remember correctly, these > facts point to Unbridge being a DE without a doubt. How else > would you explain, the pain of Harry's scar and his stomach > feeling, (the same symptoms of LV) for close contact with > Umbridge? She must be A DE I think it's related to Sturgis Podmore. UK version. 31 Aug, the night Sturgis is captured, 'Without warning, the scar on his forehead seared with pain again', he sleeps bad and he still notices the scar in the morning. Here we have a motive for Voldie proyecting feelings. (162) Umbridge touches him on Tuesday 3 September (241), on Thursday she *examines herself* (244) and IMO she touches him to do that. It is on Friday, 'after night has fallen' , 'as she took hold of him to examine' (that's why I think 'examine' stands for touch on Thursday), when Harry's scar hurts and he has 'a most peculiar sensation'. (247) The next morning, Sturgis sentence to Azkaban reachs the news (258). We also have a motive for Voldie proyecting feelings the night before. silmariel From sydenmill at msn.com Mon Aug 25 21:56:37 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:56:37 -0000 Subject: Heliopaths - Adjunct - Hagrid Thread Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78733 GOF, ch. 33, pg. 651, American edition Voldemort speaking: " 'The dementors will join us...they are our natural allies...we will recall the banished giants... I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear.' " OOP, ch. 5, pg. 92, American edition " 'Well, firstly he wants to build up his army again,' said Sirius. 'In the old days he had huge numbers at his command; witches and wizards he'd bullied or bewitched into following him, his faithful Death Eaters, a great variety of Dark Creatures. You heard him planning to recruit the giants; well, they'll be just one group he's after.'" Hm-m-m-m. Heliopaths, anyone? It could be argued that Fudge is in cohoots with Voldemort, hiding the heliopaths in the Department of Mysteries for him until Voldemort's return to power -- but I don't think that is the case. As Sirius tells Harry (OOP, pg. 302), " 'Yes, but the world isn't split into good people and Death Eaters.' " I think Fudge is evil through and through and is his own little world of nasty. Unfortunately, he is also stupid on top of that. I think he THOUGHT he had the dementors -- and, the heliopaths -- under his command and control -- and is probably getting more horrified by the day that if the dementors betrayed him, the heliopaths might do so as well. Enter our hero, Hagrid. He is the Care of Magical Creatures expert who loves all creatures, but the darker, the better. I was a bit disappointed with Hagrid's falling-out with the centaurs in OOP; I saw him as a bit of a Pan, able to communicate and get along with all creatures of the wood, at all times. In any event, I still believe that it will be his affinity with the dark creatures that will enable him to "save the day" in coming books even if he has to pay the ultimate sacrifice. Just as Sirius dying in battle was the fitting way for him to go, Hagrid dying in the effort to protect his creatures would be sadly poetic. And -- for the heliopaths to take a little stroll across Fudge or the dementors to give him a lil' kissy--now, THERE's poetry. Especially if Umbridge is there with him at the time. Ghoulishly yours, Bohcoo From mss4a at cstone.net Mon Aug 25 22:05:28 2003 From: mss4a at cstone.net (Melanie ) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:05:28 -0000 Subject: Time travel In-Reply-To: <200308251538.36155.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78734 Simariel wrote: > I thought that before reading Talisman's post, 78370. She has > reversed your argument, that Harry survives because he survives. Very interesting post ... so is she arguing that someone else saved Harry in PoA? Sorry for being thick. Melanie From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 22:08:09 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:08:09 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference; supporting opinions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78735 Evangelina:" And then, in the above post, you complain that calling Harry gay has no canon support, while you think Ginny smiling at Harry is enough proof that she still has a crush on him. I'm not just saying this to be picky, I'm trying to make a point here. :) The point being: what's the difference between straight and gay SHIPs?? I realise that your main objection might have been against Harry specifically being gay, but I feel I've just read one too many posts who seem to argue that discussing the possibility of any gay character at all is just completely out of order, has no canon to support it, and everyone disagreeing should just "get real"." Let's leave anti-gay prejudice out of this, which we should do. There is a principle of canon interpretation here: the more radical the theory, the higher the wall of proof should be. To take the current examples: We know that Ginny had a crush on Harry, we were hit over the head with it. There is no serious disagreement that she did, so suggesting that she still has feelings for him is not a big step. You can find canon that argues this one way or the other. If Harry is gay, that is a revolution in our understanding of Harry's character. I'm sure I've seen nothing in canon to make me believe it or even consider the possibility; quite the contrary, we've seen a lot about Harry's attraction to Cho, and he's at least noticed Hermione. Therefore, if you want to argue that Harry is gay, you need something very, very good in canon if you want your argument to be taken seriously. You're making a big proposition, so you need big proof. I don't believe opinions are all equal ? some have better, more persuasive arguments than others. You might answer, "Why is Harry being gay a big proposition? What's the big deal?" Well, it is a big deal. Our sexual identities are a huge part of what we are; to most of the gay people I know, it is a central part of their identity. Maybe it would be a better world if it wasn't so big a deal, but it is. This concept of "big idea/big proof" is a big concept to me, anyway. There's lots of theories proposed on this board and elsewhere that I feel are absolute horsefeathers, without a shred of support for them, and I feel about them the same way as I do about the Gay Harry/Ron/Hermione theories. OTOH, I can accept someone saying "I have no proof, but my gut instinct is...." or anything similar. So, Evangeline, I think the heavier burden of proof should fall on people with more far-reaching hypotheses. Jim Ferer From sydenmill at msn.com Mon Aug 25 22:09:35 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:09:35 -0000 Subject: Creeps, anyone? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78736 OOP, ch. 37, pg. 844, American Edition: "Sirius seemed a million miles away already, even if a part of Harry still believed that if he had only pulled back that veilo, he would have found Sirius looking back at him, greeting him, perhaps, with his laugh like a bark. . . OOP, ch. 1, pg. 15 "Dudley gave a harsh bark of laughter and then adopted a high- pitched, whimpering voice." Did this give anyone else the creeps? There are several million ways to describe a laugh that explodes sharply and suddenly out of someone's mouth besides "bark," don't you think? Do you think there is any significance in JKR's choice of words here? Bohcoo From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 22:08:32 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:08:32 -0000 Subject: Heliopaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78737 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > > OOP, ch. 16, pg. 345, American edition: > Luna Lovegood speaking: " '...Afterall, Cornelius Fudge has got his > own private army...Yes, he's got an army of heliopaths. They're > spirits of fire... Great tall flaming creatures that gallop across > the ground, burning everything in front of ---' " > > > OOP, ch. 34, pg. 775 > "Once more the wall spun and became still again. Harry approached a > door at random and pushed. It did not move... > > " 'Sirus's knife,' said Harry, and he pulled it out from inside his > robes and slid it into the crack between the door and the wall. The > others all watched eagerly as he ran it from top to bottom, withdrew > it, and then flung his shoulder again at the door. It remained as > firmly shut as ever. What was more, when Harry looked down at the > knife, he saw that the blade had melted." > > > pg. 776 > " 'You know what could be in there?' said Luna eagerly as the wall > started to spin yet again." > > > Now, everyone assumes that the door Dumbledore describes to Harry > later in the story as, " 'a room in the Department of Mysteries that > is kept locked at all times,' " (pg. 843) is this same door that > melted Harry's knife. Nope. Different door. Of the dozen or so doors > that the DA had to chose from that fateful night, they didn't try all > of them, only about half. So, it is quite logical that more than just > one room is "kept locked at all times." Dumbledore was just > describing ONE of them to Harry, the "you've got it and Voldemort > doesn't, room." Heliopaths could be behind Door Number 3, for > instance. > > Besides, what about this power that Harry has (love, hope, etc, etc -- > whatever it is) would melt a knife? > > I think Fudge DOES have an army of heliopaths, just as Luna > describes -- AND, they were in that room that melted Harry's knife. > How does Luna know about them? She might be our missing SEER; we have > all tried to pin that gift on Ron (and, he may have some talent in > that direction, we shall see) but Luna has much much more to show us. > > Bohcoo I have been wanting to do a post about Luna, the quibbler, and the validity of the creatures she comes up with and some of the articles written in the Quib. I think the Heliopaths will turn out to be ture. If you notice in the passage where she brings them up, she is pretty adamant about them, and even getting in Hermione's face over it. It would fit in nicely with mine and Sev's theory on Fudge being a DE. The Heliotropes along with Fudge wanting to take over Gringotts. And the passage in GOF when LV is talking about his army of creatures that all would fear. I think he was including other creatures as well as the giants (if you consider them creatures) and the dementors. IMHO, Luna's character is written alot like Trelawney's. some of Trelawneys predictions are right, some are wrong. She was right about Umbridge being in grave danger. Also at the beginning of GOF she predicted Harry would have a rough year and this was befoe his name popped out of the goblet of fire. Fran From sydenmill at msn.com Mon Aug 25 22:46:18 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:46:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78738 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > Note that Ollivander owled Dumbledore immediately when Harry was > matched to that wand. That indicates that this match was a very > significant event, and could easily have been an event that >Dumbledore sensed was coming. If it were just a point of curiousity, >Ollivander would have waited until the next convinient moment to >casually mention it to Dumbledore. So, this particular match of wand >as wizard was expected, to some extent, and it was considered very >significant by all concerned. > Just a thought. > bboy_mn Bohcoo responds: I have always wondered why the first wand with Fawkes' feather favored Tom Riddle. As the last remaining ancestor/descendant (ha) of Slytherin, why would that wand choose him? At that time in his life he had not shown any evil leanings -- or, had he? He arrived at Hogwarts with a hatred of his family, his Muggle father especially. Wouldn't the wand have sensed that? So, why did that wand choose him? Who knows what would have happened if Neville had purchased a wand his first year instead of having to use his father's. Would the second wand with Fawkes' feather have chosen him instead of Harry? Bohcoo From stevejjen at earthlink.net Mon Aug 25 22:47:06 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:47:06 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78739 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > This sounds like a very accurate reading of Lucius's personality. > But I have to wonder, what does this do to Voldemort's plausibility > as a villain? I mean, he has hardly any followers at the moment, > and now we're reasoning that even the ones he has aren't really > dedicated to him, but are just along for the ride. How far can this > minimizing go before Voldemort becomes more of a bore than a > threat? I'm already wondering when one of his plans will actually > succeed. Now we have slipperly Lucius in Azkaban, and maybe partly > relieved that he doesn't have to exert himself for Voldemort > anymore; is Voldemort going to take over the world with just > Bellatrix? Because it seems to be getting to that stage. I guess > I'm just getting a little tired of everyone gasping with shock > whenever Harry utters his name, and cringing in fear when nothing is actually happening. Lol! There is a lot of cringing going on, with no threat as far as I can see. I'm puzzled by the lack of fear and intimidation presented in OOTP. Are we being lulled into a false sense of security re: Voldemort? Are the DE's going to end up being equal to their names, or will they stay foolish and inept? The back story about the first War was mysterious and frightening in its ommissions; then we went through four harrowing years of Voldemort's thwarted attempts to come back to power; and finally in GOF, the real nightmare begins--Voldemort can use his wand again and resume his path of destruction. OOTP was disappointing, at times,after all that build-up. Jen From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 25 22:59:07 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:59:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78740 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > With the wisdom of age and a strong intuitive sense, I think he has a > keen awareness of the world around him. To some extent, that's how he > knew Harry and Ron were in Hargrid's hut hidden under the invisibility > cloak. He may not be able to actually see them, but knowing human > nature, and knowing Harry and his friend combined with a strong > intuitive sense and a keen awareness of his surroundings allows > Dumbledore to look directly at the spot where Harry is standing hidden > under the invisibility cloak. No, I think (and Dumbledore pretty much confirms this at the end of OoP) that he has had Harry tailed *all* the time - not necessarily by people - he could use ghosts (Moaning Myrtle?), portraits, the phoenix, OoP members, and of course himself. As for how he can see through the invisibility cloak - my suspicion is that it's his glasses. Moody's eye can see through invisibility cloaks, why cannot Dumbledore use his glasses to that effect? I am willing to bet that wizard made glasses, monocles and the like do a lot more than just correct eyesight. For instance, Madam Bones' monocle (OoP, "The Hearing") is probably used by her as a sort of truth potion, otherwise, why would she be so quick to believe such a strange witness as Mrs. Figg? > Note that Ollivander owled Dumbledore immediately when Harry was > matched to that wand. That indicates that this match was a very > significant event, and could easily have been an event that Dumbledore > sensed was coming. Did he owl him because it was Harry who got the wand or would he have regardless of who did. My understanding from what Dumbledore says in GoF that Olivander would have notified him when the second wand was taken, regardless of the identity of the buyer. Clearly the fact that the wand chose Harry served as yet another confirmation that Harry was indeed the one mentioned by the prophecy. > But at the same time, I have to concede that > Dumbledore has no power to force these things to happen. All, he can > do it try to prepare the way for Harry, and hope that the bits and > pieces fall into place. I agree with that. Salit From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 23:00:43 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:00:43 -0000 Subject: The Brady Bunch and Walt Disney are Gay. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78741 Ok, their not really gay, but I'm trying to make a point. Independant of whether or not you believe these are children's books, it is extremely unlikely that sex and sexuality in these books will ever go beyond the scope of The Brady Bunch or your typical Disney Channel Tweens show. Notice that in the last book, we really didn't even get to see the Harry/Cho kiss. We see the lead up to the kiss, then it's 'fade to black', and Harry is back at the Common Room where he recounts, in very vague detail, the kiss. We do how ever, see (actually read) about Roger Davies and his girlfriend snogging pretty heavily in the tea shop, but it still doesn't go beyond the type of kiss you might see on 'Lizzie McGuire', 'The Jersey', or 'Even Stevens' (or the Brady Bunch). In the previous book (GoF) during the Yule Ball, outside in the Garden, there is some implied snogging, but it doesn't go much beyond impled. So, I think I see a tread here. The odds of ever seeing/reading anyone naked and sweaty in these books is ZERO. A polite kid's TV romantic kiss is about as far as it will ever go. And, unless we see Ron and Harry (or Harry and Draco) snogging in the tea shop, it is unlikely that we will every have a confirmation of any main character being gay. I will concede that it might be possible for some implied gay character to exist in the background. A character whose 'gayness' is so incidental most people pass over it without noticing (Grubbly-Plank). If sex and sexuality are doomed (so to speak) to being so vague and undefined in these books, how is it that we can generate enough discussion to make an innocent 'gay-like' post drag on for days? I think the answer to this can be found in the nature of JKR's writing, and in the universal nature of these books. JKR doesn't really put obvious morals (as in 'the moral of the story is....') in her stories; they aren't 'preachy', no long sermons beating us over the head with what we are SUPPOSE to be getting out of the story. She just lays the story out and lets the chip fall where they may. In doing this, she creates universal themes, and it is these universal themes we all identify with. She doesn't have to do much or say much to make us like Harry or Ron; we just do because there is a universal truth to them that we all recognise. They are flawed, and we are flawed. They are basically good, and we are basically good. They are oppressed and downtrodden, and we are oppressed and downtrodden. They are misunderstood, we are misunderstood. JKR's writing is amazingly compact, even give a couple of books in the +800 page range. She covers sweeping amounts of story in just a few pages; frequently in just a few paragraphs. Despite her compact writing style, she is able to put enough into the story, to stimulate out imaginations into filling in the blanks to create an unbelievably vivid and detailed world. I like to use the example of Ron's appearance. Here is all we know about Ron; tall, pointed nose, big feet, and red hair. That's it, or at least, that's all I know. Yet, I know Ron in extreme detail. I know subtle speech patterns and characteristics. I know getures, movements, facial expression, the tone of his voice that never has been nor needs to be described in the book. I know Ron like I know my own brother; he is a complete detailed person with quirks and subtle nuances. How can we know this world so well? How can we all, being very different from each other, know this world and it's themes of good and evil so well? How can so few words touch us all so deeply? Because, that world, the world that JKR creates, is every world. It is the universal world. They understand this world and it themes just as well in Japan as they do in Zimbabwe. Gay and straight and every one in between see ourselves in this story; hear our own story being told, see our own lives being portrayed because JKR has so spectacularly captured the universal themes that make up every life. She is telling every story ever told, and telling it so very very well. So, how can people be so sure that there are gay undertones in this story? Because that is their story, and in Harry Potter, they see themselves. She is telling every story that's ever been told; the universal story. Just a thought. bboy_mn From jferer at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 23:00:19 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:00:19 -0000 Subject: Fudge's cowardice (Was Fudge is a DE) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78742 Severus:" I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge is in leagues with LV." I don't agree, partly because I don't see any convincing evidence of it, but mostly because Fudge plays an important thematic role and gives JKR the opportunity to make an important point. Severus:" Second in PoA, the Dementors left their posts to invade the Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's request? We think so." Why? You need to back that assertion up. I don't find it more credible than the explanation we were given, that the Dementors went to feed on the strong emotions in the stadium. Severus:" Third in PoA, the Dementors try to administer the kiss to Harry and perhaps to Hermione. Would the Dementors act on their own accord, and go against orders? The only one that was to get the kiss immediately was Sirius, but there is no mention of this. The Dementors receive their orders from who? Fudge, that's who." If you believe that the Dementors were acting on Fudge's orders, then you have to believe Fudge knew Harry was going to be out there on the grounds that night, and that he wanted Harry dead. Why? That's not what Voldemort ended up wanting, at least. If Fudge is a DE, then Voldemort would have been sorely ticked off at Fudge later. The only thing Karkaroff's courtroom statement tells us is that he can't prove Fudge is *not* a Death Eater, nothing more. Severus:" Seventh in GoF, Moody was hired by DD, who else would know except the MOM? Fudge then told Crouch Jr. to take Moody's place in order to facilitate Harry winning the cup. Why else would Fudge have the kiss administered so quickly to Crouch Jr. after his capture? So Crouch Jr. could not tell of Fudge's involvement." We already know there are DE's in the MoM, it doesn't have to be Fudge at all, even though he could have been the source, since he's too stupid to keep his mouth shut, and doesn't believe there's any reason to be secret about it anyway. As far as Barty Jr.'s elimination goes, Voldemort doesn't want Barty spilling his guts on Veritaserum. He's said too much already. Severus:" Eighth in GoF, LV states "...I shall have all my devoted servants returned to me, and an army of creatures whom all fear." Could LV be speaking of the creatures that Luna Lovegood says Fudge is secretly breeding?" Are Dementors, trolls, and Giants not scary enough? Maybe Fudge is breeding something out there; I'm just scared he's breeding with Dolores. Eeewwww. I think you offer speculations as proof, but more important to me is the thematic role that Fudge plays. All through history there have been Cornelius Fudges who, through complacency, self-interest, and cowardice, do evil's work as well as if they were active agents of the evil power. If you think of Fudge as Neville Chamberlain and Dumbledore as Churchill you get the drift. They call it the "Jaws Syndrome" now, after the fictional town fathers who insisted there wasn't a big shark out there eating people. I believe JKR is making an important moral point to her young readers. What JKR is saying, I believe, is that Fudge's cowardice and failure to act is just as bad as being a DE. He's an example of moral corruption. If Fudge is an active DE, then the books are less than what I think they are in that one respect. Jim Ferer From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 25 23:05:35 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:05:35 -0000 Subject: Narcissa (and Draco) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78743 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > Just a thought on these comments: why would Narcissa be the only > family member for whom he had any respect left? Why not Bellatrix? > (Apparently, Sirius's family had initially been supporters of > Voldemort, though not Death Eaters.) Bellatrix is clearly a Death > Eater, and Narcissa, through her association with Lucius, is at the > very least a Death Eater supporter. What is the difference between the > two, other than possibly their level of Voldemort fanaticism? > > Discuss! Kreacher idolized Bellatrix - her picture was in prominent place among his possessions. But during Christmas he could not go to Bellatrix. She was still in Azkaban at the time. Salit From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Mon Aug 25 23:15:12 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:15:12 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Tear In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78744 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Fred Waldrop" wrote: > Leb, to be honest, I really do not think DD will make Harry a Prefect > in the 6th year. But, I do think, once more, he and his father will > have something in common. > According to Hagrid, in the SS, James and Lily were "Head Boy and > Girl", yet we know that Lupin was Prefect, not James. > So, I believe Ron will remain Prefect, but ultimately Harry will be > Head boy. No, I think Dumbledore will try to let Ron have his dream wish from SS/PS and in the 7th year he'll have reached his goal of being both Quidditch captain and Head Boy (along with Hermione, of course). I think that the level of responsibility that Harry will be carrying at that point will not leave him any time for the kind of mundane duties that a Head Boy has. I suspect that Dumbledore's other purpose in that is to teach Ron that fame and status are not what really matters in the long run. The only way that Ron can learn that would be to actually experience it first hand. Salit From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 23:20:27 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:20:27 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78745 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > > .... So, this particular match of wand as wizard was expected, to > some extent, and it was considered very significant by all > concerned. > > > bboy_mn > > > > > Bohcoo responds: > > I have always wondered why the first wand with Fawkes' feather > favored Tom Riddle. As ... Slytherin, why would that wand choose > him? ... Wouldn't the wand have sensed that (evil)? So, why did that > wand choose him? > ...edited... > > Bohcoo bboy_mn: Now you are inviting me to jump into one of my favorite subject, one in which I have a great many theories, but since these have all been posted numerous times, I will try to keep it short. [If you want to know more, search for 'bboy_mn wands' and you will find lots of posts.] I don't believe a wand is a sentient beings; they do not have intellectual capability. Therefore, wands do not make intellectual or moral choices when selecting a wizard. They simply match; nothing more, nothing less. The basic version of my theory is that a wands components are match to a particular and unique magical resonance, and when a wand matches a wizard, they simply have a shared magical harmonic resonance. So, whether the wizard that matches a given wand is good or evil, tall or short, fat or thin, powerful or weak is all irrelavant. They either share a resonance or they don't. By extention, the key to the Art of wand making, is matching the magical resonace of the components of a wand; wood, size, shape, color, and core as closely as possible. The more closely the components are matched to each other, and the more closely the overal wand matches the wizard, the more powerful the wand will be. Just a thought. bboy_mn From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 23:35:33 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:35:33 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: <3F4A56E6.6030604@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78746 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > 'kiss' a student. > > > > > Fifth in GoF, the pensieve incident, Karkaroff states "...we never > > knew the names of everyone of our fellows...He alone knew who we all > > were..." This statement gives further proof of the possibility of > > Fudge being a DE, because if know one knew except LV, then one one > > could rat him out. > > > > This doesn't mean anything other then the DEs didn't know each other. I > am guessing that this is not totally correct as LV called them by name > AND some could likely recognized the voices of others. Karkaroff didn't > strike me as that bright.. I beg to differ here. I doubt seriously that LV trusts all his DE's. Look at Karkaroff ratting on the other DE's > Fudge greatly fears LV's return and would not knowingly join > the DEs. Where in all the books does it ever say Fudge greatly fears LV's return which imho indicates he is on LV's side! Fran From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 00:40:20 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:40:20 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Draco, or Pride and Prejudice (non-SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78747 "Kirstini" wrote: > Essentially, then, Harry's political awareness to prejudice > originated as a defensive manoeuvre, and perpetuates as a gut > reaction. He exhibits similar behaviour in OoP, where his reaction > against Umbridge originates in the fact that she is against *him* > (that and the fact that she's physically unattractive, I suspect > boys! ) ? no evidence of progression made from his first ever > Potions lesson, where Harry's dislike of Snape grows as a defensive > reaction to Snape's unfair treatment of him ? a small step from this > to accusing him of being an agent of Voldemort, and then again > to "never being able to forgive Snape" when he requires a handy > scapegoat for Sirius' death . Ditto > Umbridge. It's Hermione, obviously more politically aware, who > assists the narrative in building up a clear picture of Umbridge's > racist beliefs in the scene where she alerts the others to Umbridge > undermining Hagrid. Laura: Wouldn't you say that human motivation is more complex than your argument suggests? We don't arrive at our beliefs after a detatched and dispassionate examination of the possible choices; our beliefs arise organically from who we are and what we experience. Kids aren't able to reason the way adults are-they synapses just haven't begun to function that way. Harry's beliefs about the world are part of his being. Expecting him at age 11 to think and react like an adult is unrealistic. But just because he has a belief about someone or something, that doesn't mean he can't change. He is able to synthesize new information and alter or refine his beliefs accordingly (even if he's not happy about doing it). For instance, he still hates Snape but he doesn't believe any longer that Snape's working for LV. And look at Fudge-Harry starts out thinking in PoA that he's a sweet old guy who's on the right side of things and comes to realize that he's anything but. Harry may not yet be aware of Umbridge's complete agenda, but he has good reasons to mistrust MoM officials. So if Umbridge is defending a body Harry knows to be corrupt, he has every right to trust his immediate feelings of revulsion. > And of course, much has been made recently of Lupin's self-interest > on list. Another defensive manoeuvre? I wonder if Hermione's > ethical/political stance is, unconsciously, equally self-defensive? > Hermione discovers herself in a world which is perhaps not so > inclined to accept her as one of its own. Naturally more confident > than Harry, she responds not with resentment, but by trying to > change the ethical basis that world is founded upon... Laura: It sounds as if you're suggesting that behavior and beliefs, whether good or bad, are the result of unconscious desires on the part of the holder to justify and protect him/herself. (Sorry for the awkward phrasing-it's the lawyer in me.) I think it's much more complex than that (and I'm sure you do too-I'm probably simplifying your post). Intelligent people try to maintain some level of self-awareness (or so they tell me) so that they are always seeking a balance between meeting the needs of self-interest with satisfying higher understandings of right and wrong. A strong and determined mind can overrule simple self-interest and choose an abstract right. Dear Severus is a perfect example of this. He had, at least in his own mind, (down, Prank! Bad dog!) every reason to turn to LV and to stay with him. Something changed his mind. We don't know yet what that was, but we can see that he didn't go over to the Order because he loves the people in it or feels happier there. It seems to me that Snape must have changed sides because of something he came to believe- something that went against his immediate self-interest. No wonder he's not a happy camper-his feelings haven't caught up to his intellect. aside to Kneasy: Remus shakes hands with DD at the end of PoA when he's preparing to leave the school, and with Harry in OoP when the advance guard arrives at Privet Drive. And I seem to recall Arthur offering to shake hands with Vernon at least once and being ignored. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 00:44:14 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:44:14 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: <200308252314.30572.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78748 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > > Severus: > > > Didn't he also feel > > joy during or soon after his dreams when LV was inflicting pain > > or death on some one? Wasn't LV's happiness or anger projected > > to Harry through these dreams? If I remember correctly, these > > facts point to Unbridge being a DE without a doubt. How else > > would you explain, the pain of Harry's scar and his stomach > > feeling, (the same symptoms of LV) for close contact with > > Umbridge? She must be A DE > > I think it's related to Sturgis Podmore. UK version. > > 31 Aug, the night Sturgis is captured, 'Without warning, the scar on > his forehead seared with pain again', he sleeps bad and he still > notices the scar in the morning. Here we have a motive for Voldie > proyecting feelings. (162) > > Umbridge touches him on Tuesday 3 September (241), on Thursday she > *examines herself* (244) and IMO she touches him to do that. It is > on Friday, 'after night has fallen' , 'as she took hold of him to > examine' (that's why I think 'examine' stands for touch on > Thursday), when Harry's scar hurts and he has 'a most peculiar > sensation'. (247) > > The next morning, Sturgis sentence to Azkaban reachs the news (258). > We also have a motive for Voldie proyecting feelings the night > before. > > silmariel Yeah, when Harry reflects back on his scar hurting at grimwald would have been the the time that Podmore was trying to get the prophecy. While remembering this, Harry thinks that LV was happy at the time. LV had to have known between aug 31 and the Umbridge pain that Podmore had been caught thus foiling his plan. Also " she took hold of him to examine...." so indeed she did touch him. Fudge is as deceptive as Verbal Kent in the movie the Usual Suspects which is a great movie btw, a little violent but really good. Fran From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 00:51:54 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:51:54 -0000 Subject: re-reading PoA in the light of OoP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78749 Hi, I've been reading PoA aloud to my daughter this month and its amazing how much more you pick up in story when you do so. Here's a couple of things I've noticed which are new to me, particularly after reading OoP. 1. The trio hear future Harry & Hermoine's return When the trio set off for Hagrid's Hut before Buckbeak is to be executed they wait until the Entrance Hall is empty. They hear footsteps and a door slam and then decide the coast is clear. The footsteps they hear belong to Harry and Hermoine who have just arrived from the future! Future Hermoine grabs Harry and drags him into a broom closet to make sure they are not seen and slams the door behind them. Future Harry and Hermoine then hear themselves and Ron making their way out of the castle. I think this is interesting because it means that Harry seeing himself conjuring the Patronus is not the only event which has already happened in the original sequence. Unfortunately it doesn't make the whole thing any easier to understand though! 2. Did Lupin use legimency? In the shrieking shack, when Lupin first arrives Harry observes that Lupin is staring at Sirius as though seeing past him, seeing something none of the others can see. I assume he is using legimency on Sirius to understand the truth about Wormtail. But if so, I wonder why he doesn't need a wand like Snape did in OoP. 3. What is Ginny's role? Finally, when the painting of the fat lady is slashed there is a crowd of students banked up. The trio are there waiting to get in when Ginny suddenly appears asking what happened. I don't know if there is any significance here but on reading it aloud it seemed quite out of place. Ginny, who hasn't been mentioned since the train journey to school, just pops in for one question and then disappears for the rest of the book. It made me wonder why JKR bothered putting that line in. It seemed very similar to GoF where Ginny had that small scene regarding the Yule Ball and then vanished from the story again. Probably nothing, but then again you never know. Just wanted to share. LPD From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 00:55:05 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:55:05 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78750 <<<"darrin_burnett" wrote: The "surest indication." HOW?...she is on the rebound and a jealous bitch besides -- and that means he's gay? Portable closet?...she was using Harry as an emotional tampon to get over Cedric...No, I'm not back full time.>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: (Not back full time?? Get back here and take your lumps. Don't make me sic the Cho Chang Tong on you.) How she's the surest indication that something's up with Harry is more the fact that she exists, as they say. She pops up out of plot point nowhere, as if there were no pretty, ethnic-exotic, Quidditch playing girls with established personalities for Harry to fall in love with. Ron's hormonal angst is described in an easy, natural way. Harry's "crush" on Cho, on the other hand, is handled so awkwardly that it's downright creepy. Even Hermione, the other woman, feels sorry for Cho. I'm sorry, but guys who treat girls like that almost invariably turn out to be gay or priests or both. How is she a jealous bitch if a guy asks her out on a date, and dumps her to meet another girl? If Harry had tried that on Hermione, she'd have hexed his butt to a fare-thee-well. Speaking as a person who actually was a teenage girl decades ago, I have to *hope* Harry turns out gay -- I wouldn't wish that drama on my worst (female) enemy. That said, my serious adult opinion of the Potterverse is that there is no sex, period. Nobody's gay, nobody's straight. We're dealing with a Ripping Yarn here. The principals are Jolly Chums. The tale ends when the chums are too old not to have dealt with physical sexuality. And THAT said, *serious* adult opinions are of questionable appropriateness here. Herbal tea, people, herbal tea. It's fiction, remember? The flaming wizards can't hurt you... --JDR PS: Ron isn't gay. Snape is. Everybody else is reader's choice. I have spoken. From rusalka at ix.netcom.com Tue Aug 26 01:06:18 2003 From: rusalka at ix.netcom.com (marinafrants) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:06:18 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78751 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: Jen: > > When Remus drops his pleasant manner, it doesn't seem calculated to > me. Like in POA, when he's angry with Harry about going to > Hogsmeade, he comes across like any adult/parent who feels frustrated > with a young person for not realizing how serious a situation is. > Yes, he appeals to Harry on a very personal level, but he's allowed > to given his relationship with James and Lily. I don't think it's *calculated* precisely, but I do think it's conscious and self-aware on his part. Remus knew what response he wanted to produce in Harry, and he knew exactly what to say in order to produce it. He wasn't doing it just to be mean -- it was necessary both for Harry's safety and for his growth as a person that he be made to understand exactly why he was wrong to go into Hogsmeade -- but Remus didn't just blurt out those comments about James and Lily because they were the first thing that came to mind. I think Remus is well aware of the way most people respond when a normally quiet, mild-mannered person suddenly shows a strong reaction. It's much more effective than a hot-headed person having yet another burst of temper. > > Then in OOTP, with Molly, once again he lays out the facts in a very > matter of fact way, minus the anger he felt in the above situation. > Example: "Molly, that's enough," said Lupin firmly. "This isn't like > last time. The Order are better prepared, we've got a head start.... > He seems very straight-forward to me, with a good ability to connect > with people, not through manipulation, but just plain old empathy > from a guy who has been through a lot. But empathy is exactly what makes successful manipulation work. Empathy, sensitivity and insight, all of which Remus has in spades. He knows what makes the people around him tick, and he knows the right thing to say, and he says it when he thinks it's necessary -- except when he's too afraid to speak up. I don't think he manipulates people maliciously or gratuitously, but he does do it. > I guess what I'm trying to say is I agree his default is polite and > deferential, but Remus can say what he thinks MOST of the time as an > adult. JR Most of the time, yes. But he has been known to fail at crucial moments. Marina rusalka at ix.netcom.com From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Aug 25 19:07:18 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:07:18 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! References: Message-ID: <3F4A5E66.7010605@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78752 entropymail wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > > is in leagues with LV. > > > Excellent post, severusbook4. Just one thought occurs to me: if Fudge > is truly in league with Voldemort, and not the idiot that he pretends > to be, then why would Voldemort have so much trouble retrieving the > prophecy from the Department of Mysteries? Couldn't Fudge have just > gotten him in somehow, without detection? > > Entropy > Because Fudge is not a DE. If he was, he would have had Harry come get his prophecy and would have been there when it was 'opened' to report what it contained to LV.. Easy as pie and noone would question the presence of Fudge when the prophecy was revealed at all. Fudge could also have easily arranged for LV to come get the prophecy himself, but he didn't. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Aug 25 19:27:47 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:27:47 -0500 Subject: King's Cross Station References: Message-ID: <3F4A6333.7050905@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78753 A bit of history I stumbled across: "THE "WARRIOR QUEEN" UNDER PLATFORM 9 Boudica, or Boadicea, was a British queen who went to war against the Roman settlers. She destroyed the city of Londinium. She is said to be buried under platform 9 or 10 of King's Cross Station." For more, go to http://www.museum-london.org.uk/Molsite/learning/features_facts/roman_london_7.html Like the fact that Nicolas Flamel was indeed a 'real person', who in the books turned out to be a wizard. Was Boudica also a Witch? What significance is attached to her 'grave' being a 'doorway' to the Hoggwart's Express? Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Aug 25 20:06:27 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:06:27 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Prefects (was Re: Dumbledore's Tear) References: Message-ID: <3F4A6C43.6050607@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78754 I would surmise that Dumbledore made Ron a Prefect for the same reason he made Lupin one. To help keep a Potter under control, of course. Lupin mostly failed with James it seems, but maybe Ron would have more success with Harry? Not that Harry would become an arrogant bully like his dad, but he DOES have an unhealthy habit of trying to play the hero. Ron and Hermione tried to warn him it might be a trap, but Harry no more listened to them then his father listened to Lupin or Lily. Jazmyn From simoncrowe1667 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 20:10:01 2003 From: simoncrowe1667 at yahoo.com (Simon Crowe) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:10:01 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sorting (Was:Re: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78755 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > Annemehr: (large snip) > > I think it's quite clear from the books by now that many students > have quite a mix of qualities, Harry included, of what suits a > student for any of the houses. Harry himself also carries > some "Slytherinliness" that was transferred to him from LV. > However, at heart Harry is all Gryffindor, and I believe the hat > would have discerned that in the end anyway. > > Of course, I'm perfectly aware that, as Harry seems to interrupt the > hat at every crucial moment, the opinion that the hat really wanted > to put Harry in Slytherin remains perfectly valid. > > Annemehr > who continues to think, despite that last paragraph, that everything > else points to Harry belonging in Gryffindor... Simon: I agree that everything points to Harry belonging in Gryffindor except the Slytherinly (I like that word) qualities he acquired from Voldemort (according, at least, to DD). I don't think the Sorting Hat would have ever actually placed HP in Slytherin -- too many qualities that Slytherins don't possess. I think this is demonstrated by HP's almost immediate conflict with an archetypal Slytherin -- Draco. Furthermore, the Sorting Hat is supposed to be the very hat worn by GG himself. This does bring up an interesting point -- at least for me. The Sorting Hat placed Tom Riddle in Slytherin despite the fact that he was muggle-conceived (sorry, backing up to my original point when this thread was "The Sorting Hat"). Even if the Hat could sense his half-muggle genes, it seems that Riddle apparently possessed enough Slytherinly "qualities" to override them, compelling the Hat to place him in Slytherin. This is consistent with what seems to be the overwhelming majority's conclusion that the Hat's decisions are based (perhaps) entirely on a student's "qualities" (character?) as opposed to traits with which s/he might have been born -- like physical constitution, remarkable good looks, the ability to speak to snakes... ? Simon From rjpuntoni at attbi.com Mon Aug 25 20:58:31 2003 From: rjpuntoni at attbi.com (spedlegs4169) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:58:31 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78756 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > > is in leagues with LV. > > > Excellent post, severusbook4. Just one thought occurs to me: if Fudge > is truly in league with Voldemort, and not the idiot that he pretends > to be, then why would Voldemort have so much trouble retrieving the > prophecy from the Department of Mysteries? Couldn't Fudge have just > gotten him in somehow, without detection? > > Entropy One other thought on all of this, there have been plenty of times where Harry and Fudge have been in the same room, and I may have to check this, but i do believe that Fudge has touched Harry (I'm thinking of when Harry arrives at the Leaky Cauldron in PoA). If Fudge was a DE wouldn't Harry's scar have hurt if Fudge had touched him if he is a Death Eater, his scar hurt when he was near Umbridge or when Umbridge touched him. So wouldn't it be the same with Fudge the DE? -RJ From Batchevra at aol.com Mon Aug 25 20:26:10 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:26:10 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] FUDGE IS A DE!!!! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78757 In a message dated 8/25/03 1:13:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, severusbook4 at yahoo.com writes: > > Second in PoA, the dementors left their posts to invade the > Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were > all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's > request? We think so. > > I just snipped this part to make an observation. Before the Dementors show up at the Quidditch match in POA, Harry sees a black dog way up in the stands watching the match. (Page 133, POA Uk) Could it be that the Dementors sensed Sirius Black up in the stands? and were facing up because of that? Just another thought to ponder. Batchevra [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 01:13:34 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:13:34 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] re-reading PoA in the light of OoP - Legilimency Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78758 LPD wrote: 2. Did Lupin use legimency? In the shrieking shack, when Lupin first arrives Harry observes that Lupin is staring at Sirius as though seeing past him, seeing something none of the others can see. I assume he is using legimency on Sirius to understand the truth about Wormtail. But if so, I wonder why he doesn't need a wand like Snape did in OoP. Now me: IMO, yes, he did, it was that very passage that caught my eye too, and I went back and found this as well:"'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor Lupin sharply, as though he had read Harry's mind." (PoA p.187 paperback, US ver). There's a discussion starting at post #77662 which has more references (two from OotP, I believe) to Lupin's possible ability. As for why Snape needed a wand, we actually don't have a lot to go on when it comes to Legilimency. We know DD, LV and Snape can definitely do it. We've been told that LV is *very* good at it and DD has said he is skilled in it as well. We've seen LV do it without a wand (SS/PS - when LV knows he's lying about the stone, for one definite wandless example) but we only have DD's recounting of his using it to get Kreacher to tell the truth, meaning we have no episodes confirmed in canon of DD using Legilimency without the need for a wand. Snape however, we know he is a suberb *Occlumens*, but we are not told how skilled he is in Legilimency, so this could explain his need for the wand. ~RSFJenny [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Mon Aug 25 20:15:07 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:15:07 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! References: Message-ID: <3F4A6E4B.6010605@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78759 maneelyfh wrote: > > > But Fudge is a known lover of pure-blood as stated by DD. And if I > am not mistaken Snape even showed fudge the infamous Dark Mark the > proof LV was back. Fudge's denial imho is just clever cover up. If > LV came to power, and Fudge was not a DE, he would have much more to > lose! > Fran > Not everyone who shows preference to purebloods is an automatic DE. Fudge rejected what he saw on Snape's arm, asking DD what he was playing at? He refused to believe the evidence when it was shoved under his nose. Means either he blocked it out, not wanting it to be true or he didn't really know how the dark mark works. I don't see anything clever about Fudge at all, so do not feel he is capable of a 'clever coverup'. If he were so darn clever, he would have been able to help LV get the prophecy without anyone even knowing he had gotten it. He is just an idiot.. Jazmyn From dwoodward at towson.edu Tue Aug 26 00:12:27 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Deirdre F Woodward) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:12:27 -0400 Subject: Harry's Wand, Dumbledore, Fawkes, Crookshanks References: <1061852582.125778.23068.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002701c36b66$bca0d900$79092244@parkvl01.md.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78760 orourkeg: > Knowing the prophesy, might Dumbledore have commissioned the second > wand using Fawkes' tail feather bboy_mn: >So this >premonition of the need for a Phoenix wand in the future could have >lead [Dumbledore}to commissioning it. me (Deirdre): pg 85, SS, Scholastic Press: "It so happens that the phoenix whose tail feather is in your wand, gave another feather . . . " I've always read (red) this line as Fawkes giving the feather. I read (reed) Fawkes as being independent and autonomous, making his own decisions -- much like Crookshanks. I don't think Dumbledore had anything to do with it, other than knowing that Fawkes gave two feathers, then putting two and two together when the facts came in. Which brings me to a larger point -- many of the animals in the stories have a *much* wider range of ability than we give them credit for, I think. Clearly there is something up with Crookshanks. In PoA, Crookshanks plays a pivotal role, and as has been discussed in this forum before, one of the major characters (Lupin? Sirius?) notes that Crooks is one of the more intelligent of his kind -- a line that opens up the possibility of all kinds of interpretation. Anyhow, I think that while the humans play a great part in unfolding of wizard events, the animals play a large part too, and do so on their *own* terms -- many of the animals are fully autonomous entities who hang out with wizards because they *like* that wizard, not because they are pets. Deirdre Eight of Eight From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 21:27:15 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:27:15 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service=3F?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78761 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mtwelovett" wrote: > > > Melinda wrote: > > > > >I think her presence at Hogwarts for 39 years is a clue that > > >Dumbledore was no longer Transfiguration teacher in 1946 because he > > >became headmaster - and there must be some importance to that. > > Just wanted to mention that this seems to have been an important time for both Dumbledore and the WW. When Harry gets a Dumbledore card inside his Chocolate Frog box on the train to Hogwarts in the first book, it reads: "Albus Dumbledore, Currently Headmaster of Hogwarts. Considered by many the greatest wizard of modern times, Dumbledore is particularly famous for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald in 1945, for the discovery of the twelve uses of dragon's blood, and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicholas Flamel. Professor Dumbledore enjoys chamber music and tenpn bowling." The significance about the part about Nicholas Flamel became evident later in the book, but here, at Book 5, the part about Grindelwald seems to take on new significance. Who was Grindelwald, and what happened during the years of 1945/1946 that brought Dumbledore and McGonagall to their current positions at Hogwarts? Entropy From tim at marvinhold.com Mon Aug 25 21:29:14 2003 From: tim at marvinhold.com (marvinhold) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:29:14 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: <3F4A56E6.6030604@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78762 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > severusbook4 wrote: > (snip) (more snipping) > As was said, not every evil person is a DE. To be a DE, you have to > WANT to be one. There are apt to be many in the end who UNKNOWINGLY did > things to help LV, who would have died rather then become a DE. LV and > his DEs are very good at using others and manipulation. Even Harry has > been manipulated by LV, but does that make him a Jr DE? > > > Severus "I'm not a DE, He is." Snape > > > > > > > Jazmyn Excellent point and counter point. This my first post so please forgive me if this has been hashed out already My question has always been: Fudge was the first MOM offical on the scene after Pettigrew blew himself and 12 muggles up and framed Sirius for the crime, is this just coincendence or is JKR alluding to more? Tim From hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 22:09:08 2003 From: hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com (say543) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:09:08 -0000 Subject: Theory Bay: Ouroboros in HP? (Pretty long!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78763 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > say543 wrote: (snipped a bit) > One question I had, however, is what about the sorting hat? If it was > imbued with some of each founder, would it not have recognized Tom > Riddle as Slytherin himself? Makes me wonder what it said when it > sorted him. hesdead-dealwithit(aka say543): Well, you've stumped me. Oh, wait - you already have an answer! > On the other hand, if Slytherin had anything to do with the sorting > hat's workings, maybe he constructed it as the perfect empire maker > for his future self-it only picks future loyal followers of LV! Yep, since Slytherin had a hand in making the Sorting hat he could have easily done anything like fool it so it wouldn't recognize LV, or help LV by putting all the future supporters of him in one house, or whatever. > A final thought: perhaps during his early memory-charmed days in the > past as Salazar Slytherin, LV is treated nicely in a hospital like the > Longbottoms. Perhaps this niceness ultimately leads to a Reformed!LV. > Perhaps he doesn't *want* his future self to defeat Harry--and that's > why he doesn't help his future self more, and that's why history > repeats itself again (and again). No, I doubt it. For one, I don't think that LV would be treated well. For two, the only way that LV would get into the Time Room to be able to go back to the past is during the fight vs. Harry. If he was put in St. Mungo's he wouldn't be able to get back. Plus, the fact that he lost his memory is enough to justify why LV didn't win in the future after all - he didn't remember enough to make LV defeat Harry. hesdead-dealwithit From mlacats at aol.com Mon Aug 25 21:30:35 2003 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:30:35 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let's pick at that prophecy a litle more, shall we? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78764 In a message dated 08/17/2003 12:31:17 PM Pacific Daylight Time, profwildflower at mindspring.com writes: > > I appreciated elle's important reminder (ellegir, post 77655, 8.17.03, 10:47 > > am) that LV does not know the part about the "Dark Lord will mark him as his > > equal." As I read OoP LV still does not know that part of the prophecy. At > this > point I think only Dumbledore and Harry know this part (and Sibyll > Trelawney, > if she remembers). > > That has been a question of mine and which has confused me more that a bit: How much does the Order know of the Prophecy? Who knows all of it? Is it just Dumbledore and now Harry? Sybil appears to have forgotten it, seeing as she keeps predicting Harry's death in class and she couldn't remember telling Harry about Wormtail returning to his master in that 'funny' voice in PoA when she went into that trance after Harry's exam. Now, members of the Order had been guarding the DoM. I figure that they knew 'of' the Prophecy and that it pertained to Harry and maybe V also but that doesn't mean that they knew all of it. I doubt it or Moody would not have remarked, "There's something funny about that Potter kid, we all know that." I think they knew there was some connection between Harry and V, but that they didn't know exactly what. Question is... will they find out in Book 6? Harriet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 22:13:24 2003 From: hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com (say543) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:13:24 -0000 Subject: Heliopaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78765 Luna has much much more to show us. > > Bohcoo That's the only part that I agree with you - she does have much more to show us. But DD said "there is one room that is kept locked at all times." Wouldn't he have said "One of the rooms that is kept locked at all times. . . " if there was more than one? Everything that he said was meant to imply that there was ONE room. Plus, if there is one locked room, and Harry and Co. find a locked room, what is the chance that THAT room that they found is NOT the one mentioned? From mlacats at aol.com Mon Aug 25 23:41:52 2003 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:41:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: GoF- Harry's Dream about Riddle House Message-ID: <2d.330f0664.2c7bf8c0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78766 In a message dated 08/13/2003 6:52:14 AM Pacific Daylight Time, jamesredmont at hotmail.com writes: > I think he's just used to a)being on his guard and b)being told off > any time he lets something slip he shouldn't. He just doesn't want > to start any trouble. Like when he doesn't want anyone to find out > he gave money to the twins 'cause he's afraid he'll start a row in > the W. family that will alienate the twins from Molly and Arthur > (which I think is paranoia set off by Harry not having a family file > in his brain to refer to). Then there are the many times he watches > what he says because he's afraid he'll get kicked out of Hogwarts > (Harry hoping he'll get to stay and be assistant game keeper). I > guess what I'm trying to say is that he's pretty much used to the > fact that whatever he really wants to say will get him a world of > hurt. I think that's why he keeps the real Harry to himself. > > > James Redmont, who will defend my ickle Harry to the ends of the > Earth...(I'm here for ya, Harry!) > I hope I can jump in here. I definitely agree with you, James.... I also want to ad that Harry has been told by others that, namely H and H, that what he sees and hears are "not normal, even in the wizarding world" as Hermione tells Harry when he hears the Basilisk in CoS. Harriet, who joins James in defending Harry, a hero for our times.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com Mon Aug 25 22:15:01 2003 From: hesdead_dealwithit at hotmail.com (say543) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:15:01 -0000 Subject: Religion Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78767 Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. From tamliv at worldnet.att.net Mon Aug 25 23:40:43 2003 From: tamliv at worldnet.att.net (Tamee Livingston) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:40:43 -0800 Subject: Pureblood DE and Knights of Walpurgis References: <1061852582.125778.23068.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <07e201c36b62$50d836e0$43c50c0c@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 78768 As may be obvious, lately I've been struggling with what Voldemort has to offer his pureblooded followers already in positions of power. I mean it's easy enough to attract the disenfranchised by promising them what they've been denied by the majority or at least a substantial vengeance for wrongs suffered; it's quite another to gain the loyalty of those who have more to lose from anarchy. But then I suddenly remembered reading an interview with JKR in which she said that DEs were once called the Knights of Walpurgis, which implied to me that they predated Voldemort's rise by some time. I'm guessing that they were a secret society of pureblood Dark Arts practioners, who perhaps like the reputed Illuminati, work behind the scenes to maintain a status quo or move towards some particular goal. Maybe the Knights once had a noble aim and like the Knights Templar became corrupt (if I remember correctly, I probably don't) and had to go underground. Maybe Grindelwald was the chief leader before his defeat. Anyway, I now think that Voldemort managed to take over an already existent organization and turn it to his own purposes. Perhaps he promised that they would finally control the wizarding world and beyond, and in the first Voldemort war, it looked like they'd succeed; of course, now things are different, and fear of Voldemort's power or insane loyalty seem to be what hold them together. I hope this makes some sense. The idea that Voldemort became leader of an already existent Dark Arts/Pure blood society helps me understand why someone like Lucius would follow him. Once again, if I'm somehow copying someone else's ideas, or stating the stupidly obvious or the blatantly wrong, it is entirely unintentional. Tamee From furkin1712 at aol.com Mon Aug 25 22:50:43 2003 From: furkin1712 at aol.com (furkin1712 at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:50:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tonks house, was Heir of Slytherin Message-ID: <1a5.186051d4.2c7becc3@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78769 I agree, Tonks (like Sirius mind you) was blasted off the family wall (also like her mother) because she did not show the Black nature of mudblood hating and cruelty, other such harsh things that were shown to be the strengths of the Black family. Tonks would not have been in Slytherin either unless she was evil because she was part muggle. That leads to Tom RIddle being part muggle but he was evil enough for that not to matter, he also hid his lineage. Blue Eyes [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 01:16:32 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:16:32 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78770 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<<"darrin_burnett" wrote: The "surest indication." HOW?...she is on > the rebound and a jealous bitch besides -- and that means he's gay? > Portable closet?...she was using Harry as an emotional tampon to get > over Cedric...No, I'm not back full time.>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > (Not back full time?? Get back here and take your lumps. Don't make > me sic the Cho Chang Tong on you.) > > How she's the surest indication that something's up with Harry is > more the fact that she exists, as they say. She pops up out of plot > point nowhere, as if there were no pretty, ethnic-exotic, Quidditch > playing girls with established personalities for Harry to fall in > love with. Ron's hormonal angst is described in an easy, natural way. > Harry's "crush" on Cho, on the other hand, is handled so awkwardly > that it's downright creepy. Even Hermione, the other woman, feels > sorry for Cho. I'm sorry, but guys who treat girls like that almost > invariably turn out to be gay or priests or both. How is she a > jealous bitch if a guy asks her out on a date, and dumps her to meet > another girl? If Harry had tried that on Hermione, she'd have hexed > his butt to a fare-thee-well. > > Speaking as a person who actually was a teenage girl decades ago, I > have to *hope* Harry turns out gay -- I wouldn't wish that drama on > my worst (female) enemy. > > That said, my serious adult opinion of the Potterverse is that there > is no sex, period. Nobody's gay, nobody's straight. We're dealing > with a Ripping Yarn here. The principals are Jolly Chums. The tale > ends when the chums are too old not to have dealt with physical > sexuality. > > And THAT said, *serious* adult opinions are of questionable > appropriateness here. Herbal tea, people, herbal tea. It's fiction, > remember? The flaming wizards can't hurt you... > > --JDR > > PS: Ron isn't gay. Snape is. Everybody else is reader's choice. I > have spoken. O.K. I can buy the Snape thing, but as far as Harry and Ron, no way. At the quidditch thing, with the Weasley's, Harry tried to jump out of the stands to impress the Veela, and Ron was doing something equally stupid. Hermione and Ginny were unaffected, why? Because they don't like girls that way, it's that simple. Harry, Ron, Bill, Charlie, Percy and Arthur were affected by the veela, why? Because they do like girls that way. Enough Said. Severus From mlacats at aol.com Mon Aug 25 23:25:09 2003 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:25:09 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Who is Snape? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78771 In a message dated 08/12/2003 6:39:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, chitrasahai at yahoo.com writes: > > Lots of discussion happened about who actually Snape is? Most of the > people believe in half human concept(Vampire or something else). I > also guess almost the same thing. If you read Chapter Occlumency in > OOTP, Snape and Sirius had a hot argument and Sirius said something > like- Dumbledore thinks you are reformed but I do not. then Snape > said why do you not tell him, would he believe on someone like you - > I do not have the book right now. What could the word "reformed" > indicate? Any ideas? > -Hermys_Quill > > Hello Hermy, I think that, when Sirius used the word "reformed" in regards to Snape, he was referring to Snape having been a Death Eater and on Voldy's side. D has said many times that he trusts Snape, so Sirius was questioning this trust. I hope I haven't jumped in too soon. I checked and saw no other thread. Harriet [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 01:25:30 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:25:30 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: <3F4A5E66.7010605@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78772 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > entropymail wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > > > is in leagues with LV. > > > > > > Excellent post, severusbook4. Just one thought occurs to me: if Fudge > > is truly in league with Voldemort, and not the idiot that he pretends > > to be, then why would Voldemort have so much trouble retrieving the > > prophecy from the Department of Mysteries? Couldn't Fudge have just > > gotten him in somehow, without detection? > > > > Entropy > > > > > Because Fudge is not a DE. If he was, he would have had Harry come get > his prophecy and would have been there when it was 'opened' to report > what it contained to LV.. Easy as pie and noone would question the > presence of Fudge when the prophecy was revealed at all. > > Fudge could also have easily arranged for LV to come get the prophecy > himself, but he didn't. > > Jazmyn Then how did the DE's gain entry into the DOM? And LV was ther shortly after Harry, was he also allowed in? Fudge could not just present Harry with the prophecy, it would have raised too many eyebrows and Fudge's cover would have been blown. By having Harry show as he did, Fudge was likely to be done with Harry once and for all, and then could openly support LV. With Harry, the only know defense against LV, still running around, Fudge can't pick the winning side, because he doesn't know who will win in the end. And, I think, that is what is keeping Fudge hemming and hawing about LV rising again. Even at the end of OotP, Fudge was still reluctant to give in and state that he had risen once again. Just my opinion. Severus From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 01:32:41 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:32:41 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78773 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > I am willing to bet that > wizard made glasses, monocles and the like do a lot more than just > correct eyesight. For instance, Madam Bones' monocle (OoP, "The > Hearing") is probably used by her as a sort of truth potion, > otherwise, why would she be so quick to believe such a strange > witness as Mrs. Figg? But Mrs Figg lied, didn't she? If the monocle is a truth potion, it's not a very good one. Mrs. Figg didn't actually see the dementors like she claimed- remember the way she stumbled over how they moved? She certainly didn't see them attack Dudley, she wasn't even there at the start of the attack, she arrived afterwards. The impression I got was that squibs, like muggles, can't see dementors at all, only feel them, and that Arabella had been coached on what to say. Erin From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 01:32:52 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:32:52 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! my mistake In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78774 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "maneelyfh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > > > Severus: > > > > > Didn't he also feel > > > joy during or soon after his dreams when LV was inflicting pain > > > or death on some one? Wasn't LV's happiness or anger projected > > > to Harry through these dreams? If I remember correctly, these > > > facts point to Unbridge being a DE without a doubt. How else > > > would you explain, the pain of Harry's scar and his stomach > > > feeling, (the same symptoms of LV) for close contact with > > > Umbridge? She must be A DE > > > > I think it's related to Sturgis Podmore. UK version. > > > > 31 Aug, the night Sturgis is captured, 'Without warning, the scar > on > > his forehead seared with pain again', he sleeps bad and he still > > notices the scar in the morning. Here we have a motive for Voldie > > proyecting feelings. (162) > > > > Umbridge touches him on Tuesday 3 September (241), on Thursday she > > *examines herself* (244) and IMO she touches him to do that. It is > > on Friday, 'after night has fallen' , 'as she took hold of him to > > examine' (that's why I think 'examine' stands for touch on > > Thursday), when Harry's scar hurts and he has 'a most peculiar > > sensation'. (247) > > > > The next morning, Sturgis sentence to Azkaban reachs the news > (258). > > We also have a motive for Voldie proyecting feelings the night > > before. > > > > silmariel > > Yeah, when Harry reflects back on his scar hurting at grimwald would > have been the the time that Podmore was trying to get the prophecy. > While remembering this, Harry thinks that LV was happy at the time. > LV had to have known between aug 31 and the Umbridge pain that > Podmore had been caught thus foiling his plan. > Also " she took hold of him to examine...." so indeed she did touch > him. > > Fudge is as deceptive as Verbal Kent in the movie the Usual Suspects > which is a great movie btw, a little violent but really good. Mea culpa,Mea culpa! The above is totally wrong....must have been the wine at dinner. Scar pain at Grimwalld: LV angry Podmore was caught Harry feels the anger Scar pain with Umbridge: LV is happy. Harry is being tortured by Umbridge. Harry feels LV's happiness. I dont think it had to do with Podmore getting sentenced to Azkaban as LV would have know this before the time of the scar pain and Umbrige. Like to add, IMVeryHO, LV was using Umbridge to get Harry out of Hogwarts. If Harry had run away or been expelled, then Harry would be free game to LV making it easier for LV to use Harry to get the prophecy, or kill Harry. Harry is the only one other than Lee Jordan to get her special dentention, Griffyndor barely was allowed to play Quidditch. Harry was suspended for "life" from quidditch. Hedwig seems to be the only owl Umbridge tries to intercept. Fran From EnsTren at aol.com Tue Aug 26 01:33:13 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:33:13 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] King's Cross Station Message-ID: <6b.17cc89c5.2c7c12d9@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78775 In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:13:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jazmyn at pacificpuma.com writes: > "THE "WARRIOR QUEEN" UNDER PLATFORM 9 > Boudica, or Boadicea, was a British queen who went to war against the > Roman settlers. She destroyed the city of Londinium. She is said to be > buried under platform 9 or 10 of King's Cross Station." > I'm wrackign my brain here and I seem to recall something about Boudica being involved in the authoritian myth. I just don't remember how. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sues0101 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 01:37:58 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:37:58 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Clothes (WAS Exploring prejudice) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78776 Kneasy wrote: >. I'll lay long odds that any adult >wizard seen in Muggle clothes is not pureblood. > Sue: Just a quick point about this. In OoTP, I think it's Harry makes a comment about seeing Prof. McG in muggle clothes coming to headquarters. Plus I remember reading a reference to the Weasley children wearing muggle clothes in the holidays. However, I understand that your point was probably that they don't wear muggle clothes as a preference over wizarding robes. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. Get five times more storage - 10MB in your Hotmail account. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 01:48:50 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:48:50 -0000 Subject: Religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78777 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" wrote: > Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. > Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too > impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. They do celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ), and they observe Easter (the ressurection of Christ), so in my opinion it has a Christian base. I have not seen a wizard or witch create life from clay, or a planet from an empty void, so they are not like Him. What I have seen seems very small compared to His power and wisdom. And I am a happy little pagan of Dianic Wicca. Severus Snape From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 02:01:55 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:01:55 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78778 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spedlegs4169" wrote: > One other thought on all of this, there have been plenty of > times where Harry and Fudge have been in the same room, and I may > have to check this, but i do believe that Fudge has touched Harry > (I'm thinking of when Harry arrives at the Leaky Cauldron in PoA). > If Fudge was a DE wouldn't Harry's scar have hurt if Fudge had > touched him if he is a Death Eater, his scar hurt when he was near > Umbridge or when Umbridge touched him. So wouldn't it be the same > with Fudge the DE? > -RJ No, because; 1. Umbridge isn't a proven death eater. 2. Umbridge wasn't the one who caused Harry's scar to hurt. It hurt because Voldemort was feeling a strong surge of emotion related to Sturgis Podmore's attempt to get the prophecy at the time. Umbridge just happened to be near Harry. And also, I don't think anyone besides Voldemort CAN make the scar hurt. I don't think its something that holds true for all the DEs, otherwise Harry could be used as a sort of living dark detector- just push him up against suspects, and if he yells, arrest the person immediately! So Fudge touching Harry proves nothing. Mind you, I think it has been made pretty clear the Fudge is NOT a DE, otherwise the whole fifth book's plot would have been pretty pointless. Erin From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 02:05:54 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:05:54 -0000 Subject: Pureblood DE and Knights of Walpurgis In-Reply-To: <07e201c36b62$50d836e0$43c50c0c@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78779 Tamee wrote: > As may be obvious, lately I've been struggling with what > Voldemort has to offer his pureblooded followers already > in positions of power. I mean it's easy enough to attract > the disenfranchised by promising them what they've been > denied by the majority or at least a substantial vengeance > for wrongs suffered; it's quite another to gain the loyalty > of those who have more to lose from anarchy. I don't think LV is offering anarchy at all. He offers even the powerful a certain order and discipline that is hard to understand WANTING to endure, let alone work to establish, but there is something very sinister that he offers ... ABSOLUTE power, the power of life and death over the "undesirables" of the WW, without fear of consequences, and without the limitations of mere mortality, and all in a pure-blood WW. With this goes the implication of wealth and prestife. Such things are tempting enough in our real World, but in a magical world with the prospect of immortality IS real, and power is potentially exponentially more profitable, even those in positions of power might well be tempted, since they may see themselves as gaining so much more. Tamee continued: > But then I suddenly remembered reading an interview with JKR > in which she said that DEs were once called the Knights of > Walpurgis, which implied to me that they predated Voldemort's > rise by some time. I'm guessing that they were a secret > society of pureblood Dark Arts practioners, who perhaps like > the reputed Illuminati, work behind the scenes to maintain a > status quo or move towards some particular goal. Maybe the > Knights once had a noble aim and like the Knights Templar became > corrupt (if I remember correctly, I probably don't) and had to > go underground. Maybe Grindelwald was the chief leader before > his defeat. Anyway, I now think that Voldemort managed to take > over an already existent organization and turn it to his own > purposes. Perhaps he promised that they would finally control > the wizarding world and beyond, and in the first Voldemort war, > it looked like they'd succeed; of course, now things are > different, and fear of Voldemort's power or insane loyalty seem > to be what hold them together. I think it quite likely LV DID usurp an existing organization, but we were told in CoS, by no less an authority than the young Tom Riddle/LV himself, that he was already seeking followers while in school. If LV did usurp a pure-blood organization, he might well have done so by encouraging his followers to join that organization and to serve as agitators on his behalf. But, I can't see LV willingly joining an organization controlled by a single powerful wizard or similar small clique of wizards. Once out of school, I see him seeking to be ONLY the top dog in whatever organization he associated with. Thus, such usurpation might not have been as a result of his rise from within that organization, but more like an annexation, having populated the "territory" with his followers, who keep bringing in more of LV's followers, until the organization ceases to be what it was, and becomes an organ in LV's apparatus. This would also account for some DEs being less loyal than others. If they THOUGHT they were joining the "classical" Knights ("Dear old Dad was a member, you know ..."), only to find that they now must be loyal to LV as a consequence of joining (or die, a la Sirius' brother), they might well be less than loyal to LV or the usurped organization, once LV seemed to have fallen. Tamee then wrote: > I hope this makes some sense. The idea that Voldemort became > leader of an already existent Dark Arts/Pure blood society > helps me understand why someone like Lucius would follow him. Somehow I think Lucius would have been ripe pickings for LV regardless of any prior affiliations Lucius might have had. He is smitten with his family wealth, he craves power and he despises mud- bloods (sorry for the language) and mixed-bloods. Richard From helen at odegard.com Tue Aug 26 02:12:08 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 19:12:08 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tonks house, was Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: <1a5.186051d4.2c7becc3@aol.com> Message-ID: <000001c36b77$74b5fd30$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 78780 I agree, Tonks (like Sirius mind you) was blasted off the family wall (also like her mother) because she did not show the Black nature of mudblood hating and cruelty, other such harsh things that were shown to be the strengths of the Black family. Tonks would not have been in Slytherin either unless she was evil because she was part muggle. That leads to Tom RIddle being part muggle but he was evil enough for that not to matter, he also hid his lineage. Blue Eyes *nods* I too find it highly unlikely that Tonks was in Slytherin because of her mixed lineage, unless she is evil like Voldie (which I rather doubt). I could see her in any of the remaining houses (Auror and Order Member require smarts, bravery and loyalty). However, if I were to choose one, I would pick Gryffindor, simply because of the off-hand remark Tonks makes to Harry about her Head of House disapproving of her misbehavior. It instantly brings to mind McG. Perhaps a bit of a tangent, but did anyone else notice how 'together' Tonks was when there was an actual mission - taking the kids to Kings Cross and on the Knight Bus? She's a klutz, probably due to changing physical form, but she's not a bumbler. Helen [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From kkearney at students.miami.edu Tue Aug 26 02:31:56 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:31:56 -0000 Subject: Heliopaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78781 Bohcoo asked: > Besides, what about this power that Harry has (love, hope, etc, etc -- > whatever it is) would melt a knife? > > I think Fudge DOES have an army of heliopaths, just as Luna > describes -- AND, they were in that room that melted Harry's knife. > How does Luna know about them? She might be our missing SEER; we have > all tried to pin that gift on Ron (and, he may have some talent in > that direction, we shall see) but Luna has much much more to show us. I assumed that the thing Dumbledore referred to which was kept in the locked room was love. Why would this melt the knife? Despite the fact that it can be used for good intentions, a knife can also be used for destruction, violence, and pain. Because the knife could be percieved as an "enemy" to love, it was destroyed as it penetrated that room. Just my theory, of course. I think Luna will be a much more interesting character if her beliefs remain unproven. She has thus far been perfectly content to believe in many things without the proof that many others need. These include seemingly ridiculous beliefs such as the existance of a wide variety of creatures (Crumple-horned snorkack, heliopaths, Aquavarius maggots, etc.) as well as a belief in life after death which many people struggle with. I think her unquestioning belief in the latter will eventually help Harry to cope with Sirius' death. However, if one or two of her creature beliefs were proven true, it would make her unwavering confidence seem less significant. Plus, I think it would lead to her belief in the afterlife, still unproven (which I feel it must remain; JKR has made it clear that wizards with all their powers and even ghosts who have experienced death have no more idea than us Muggles what lies next), seem less credible. If she could find proof for these other farfetched ideas, why no that one? Is it not true? No, Luna is a much more heroic figure blindly believing in things that will never be proved or disproved. -Corinth From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Aug 26 02:34:12 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:34:12 -0000 Subject: Heliopaths In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78782 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" wrote: > Luna has much much more to show us. > > > > Bohcoo > > That's the only part that I agree with you - she does have much more > to show us. > > But DD said "there is one room that is kept locked at all times." > Wouldn't he have said "One of the rooms that is kept locked at all > times. . . " if there was more than one? Everything that he said was > meant to imply that there was ONE room. Plus, if there is one locked > room, and Harry and Co. find a locked room, what is the chance that > THAT room that they found is NOT the one mentioned? Bohcoo again: Actually, what Dumbledore said was, "There is a room at the Department of Mysteries that is kept locked at all times..." (pg. 843) He did not say, "There is ONE room. . ." If he had, your interpretation of his comments would be accurate. By saying, "there is a room," he is not even implying that it is the ONLY locked room, IMHO. My take on it was that Dumbledore was simply referring to one of the locked rooms, one among possibly several. The room Dumbledore was talking about had nothing whatsoever to do with the door that melted Harry's knife. Bohcoo From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 02:44:19 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:44:19 -0000 Subject: Prefects (was Re: Dumbledore's Tear) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78783 wrote: This is something that has bothered me for a while. Why was Ron ever made a prefect? But why Ron? and then also why Harry? Surely there are other more deserving people? ...edited... Sorry, its rather trivial I know but I honestly dont see why either Ron or Harry deserves the badge over somebody like Dean or Seamus? bboy_mn then wrote: Keep in mind that we only have a field of 10 people to chose from. None of them beyond Harry, Ron, and Hermione have distinquished themselves in any way; they are all ordinary students. If there was trouble in the castle, like a DE raid, would you prefer to put the fate of the underclassmen in Ron's hands or Seamus's hands? Personally, Ron has a lot more experience, and a proved track record in crisis; so my vote goes to him. If my kids were underclassmen, I can think of no one more likely to keep their head in a crisis and to act for the greater good than the Trio. More specifically, why Ron or Harry rather than Dean or Seamus? What have Dean or Seamus ever done? How have they distinquished themselves in any way? Have they ever shown the ability to take the initiative in a crisis and do what has to be done? No, I don't think so. While Harry and Ron may have bent a few rules, it was always for the greater good, and they alway took the action that needed to be take rather than waiting around to be told what to do next. Some people are Generals and some people are soldiers; Harry, Ron, and Hermione, whether they like it or not, are fated to be Generals. to which I reply ... A point that a good many people forget about leadership is that there are times when you have to throw the rules out the window, because at such times they actually cause more problems than they prevent. The great art in wise leadership is knowing when to follow the rules, when to bend them and when to break them. In short, I agree with you 100 percent regarding rules and the need to occasionally ignore them. Still, if we're going to understand prefectship, we have a different coin to examine. Percy was a rules freak, but being (apparently) the best in his class on a number of fronts, it would have been hard to NOT make him a prefect, and then a Head Boy. But his greatest liability in my view is that he cannot step outside the rules and do what is necessary, as opposed to what is demanded by the rules. He follows Fudge not simply out of a desire to advance, but because, being THE Minister of Magic, Fudge IS the rules. What he says is, in a sense, law, even though we know he is in part constrained by the Muggle Prime Minister and Pariament, as well as the bureaucracy and process of the Ministry. Percy cannot step back from this embodiment of the rules and see that Fudge is off his nut, with regard to LV and Harry and DD. The trio have demonstrated that they TEND to follow the rules, as we don't see them routinely partaking in the jinxing of others in the halls. They largely reserve their jinxes for defensive purposes, instead of initiating hijinx. Academically, Ron seems to be the least gifted of the three, but I think the observation that none of the other three male Gryffindors has demonstrated that they are more gifted than Ron leaves Ron the logical academic choice. Link this with his willingness to do what is necessary when it IS necessary, and you have a potentially very good prefect and possibly a good candidate for Head Boy. The problem is that we also know he doesn't take pressure well. Crises? Yes, he'll stand up well. But not to pressure. Ron waffles, shrinks and collapses under the pressure of being the new keeper for the house team, continually losing confidence in practice, wilting under the taunts of the Slytherins, etc. It isn't until he makes the paradoxical realization that he can't get any worse that he stops caring about the pressure and failure and does so well in the last game. Ron's problem is always confidence. He gets into trouble when he doubts himself. Hanging with what are apparently the best of the class can't help his confidence overly much, but the knowledge and skill of the other two has rubbed off onto Ron, some. He gets in extra practice at things working with Harry for the Tournament. His homework is, in a sense, graded twice, once by Hermione and then by the assigning teacher. As a once-upon-a-time teacher, I know that the more times a student comes into contact with the RIGHT information, the more likely it will stick. Copying someone else's work isn't as good as studying it for one's self, and doing the work on one's own, but it is better than what many students do, which is not to study much at all, confuse the facts, and rarely if ever try to figure out what was really wrong in the first place. With his two best friends, he is getting more chances to see things that are right, and it can't be hurting him. Now, we KNOW that Harry is better at DADA than Hermione, and that Hermione deeply impresses others with her abilities. Hermione is likely the best of her year in the school. Harry impresses even adult wizards with his abilities. But, will Harry want to be Head Boy? He knows that Ron WANTS to be Head Boy, as well as Quidditch Captain. Harry has lot's on his plate, as DD noted. I think Harry will try to get Ron the captaincy at some point, and that with Harry being pre-occupied by other problems, and Ron's being continually exposed to both Hermione and Harry, he may also find himself Head Boy. In other words, I'm not surprised that Ron was named prefect (there were only five boys to pick from), and not concerned that he would not be at least a candidate for Head Boy. Richard From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 03:20:18 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 03:20:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78784 <<<"severusbook4" wrote: O.K. I can buy the Snape thing, but as far as Harry and Ron, no way. At the quidditch thing, with the Weasley's, Harry tried to jump out of the stands to impress the Veela, and Ron was doing something equally stupid...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says Ron is *not* gay. He's about the only person even I can't see as anything but straight. However, at the Quidditch match, only Harry and Ron (of the Weasley party) actually react to the veela when they first appear. Mr. Weasley, Bill and Charlie are too grownup (I won't say too gay) to have to plug their ears. The second time Ron and Harry encounter the veela, after the game when they and Hermione are in the woods away from the riot, "...Harry snorted with laughter. He recognized the pimply wizard: his name was Stan Shunpike...He turned to tell Ron this, but Ron's face had gone oddly slack...'Honestly!' said Hermione, and she and Harry grabbed Ron firmly by the arms...and marched him away." Harry gets over the veela almost immediately, but Ron never quite does, and every time he encounters Fleur, who is only one-quarter veela, he gets silly. --JDR From huntleyl at mssm.org Tue Aug 26 03:21:39 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:21:39 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heliopaths References: Message-ID: <002601c36b81$2a861790$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 78785 Bohcoo: >By saying, "there is a room," he is not even implying that it is the >ONLY locked room, IMHO. My take on it was that Dumbledore was simply >referring to one of the locked rooms, one among possibly several. The >room Dumbledore was talking about had nothing whatsoever to do with >the door that melted Harry's knife. I think you're making too strong of a statement here. Try prefacing that last sentence with "I believe" or the like. ^_^ I'm not saying that your theory doesn't have merit, however. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if Fudge really did have an army of heliopaths. Except...for the life of me, I can't figure out why he would keep them in a locked room in the Department of Mysteries. I think, of all the departments in the MoM, the DoM is definitely the one that Fudge has the *least* amount of control over, due to the fact that he's really too silly to understand any of it (and can you picture Fudge being able to boss around any of the Unspeakables we've seen/met so far?). Plus, the kinds of experiments that they conduct probably outlive hoards of administrations before they peter out. It simply wouldn't make sense if the Minister had any kind of active jurisdiction over the DoM. Also, I believe you mentioned in an earlier post that you thought that there wasn't anything in the Love (?) Room that would cause Harry's knife to melt, and, therefore, it must be a room full of heliopaths (or else something very hot). However, I think it is more likely that what caused Harry's knife to melt was not the contents of the room (whether it be the Love Room or not), but the locking spell on the door. It's a pretty standard thing in fantasy literature -- the hero/heroine comes across a magically locked door and tries their trusty lockpick on it, but the pick just melts and the hero/heroine is left feeling very silly and sucking on their fingers. Anyway, who's to say Fudge doesn't keep the corpses of all the goblins he's murdered in that room? Laura (who really needs to go to bed, as she has a dentist appointment very early in the morning tomorrow.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 03:41:56 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 03:41:56 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78786 > How she's the surest indication that something's up with Harry is > more the fact that she exists, as they say. She pops up out of plot > point nowhere, as if there were no pretty, ethnic-exotic, Quidditch > playing girls with established personalities for Harry to fall in > love with. I really don't follow this point, but I'll take a running start at it. So, Harry is gay because there were no other girls he noticed before Cho and that somehow makes Cho his beard? Ron's hormonal angst is described in an easy, natural way. > Harry's "crush" on Cho, on the other hand, is handled so awkwardly > that it's downright creepy. Even Hermione, the other woman, feels > sorry for Cho. Hermione was only the other woman in Cho's jealous eyes. Harry treated Hermione as a friend and has shown no interest in her as anything but friends. If Cho had half an ounce of security, she might get that. Cho's failings do not make Harry gay. I'm sorry, but guys who treat girls like that almost > invariably turn out to be gay or priests or both. How is she a > jealous bitch if a guy asks her out on a date, and dumps her to meet another girl? So wait. Guys who treat girls as WHAT exactly? Guys who have enough moral character to say, "OK, I know this is heading to a serious makeout session if I play my cards right, but damn it, I promised my friend I'd show up" and then actually keeps the appointment? Uh-huh. But all those guys turn out gay. So much for women appreciating a guy with a sense of honor. And he didn't dump her. He invited her along. She ditched him. LATER, she is all gooey and icky about how brave he was to give that interview. I wish Harry would have said, "Yes, Cho, and THAT'S what I was doing with Hermione. She set it up. Bet you feel stupid, huh? Now get out of here and seek some professional help." > Speaking as a person who actually was a teenage girl decades ago, I > have to *hope* Harry turns out gay -- I wouldn't wish that drama on > my worst (female) enemy. Cho is the drama queen. She's the one with unresolved issues for Cedric. There is no way the next guy she hooked up with could deal with the baggage she was lugging around. An experienced guy couldn't deal with it, let alone a kid in his first relationship. Talk about creepy. Going out with the guy who watched your boyfriend die with at least one motive being to pick his brain about how Cedric died? And I won't even get into Cho defending her rat-bitch friend whose actions drove away Dumbledore and consolidated Umbridge's power over the school. And because Harry doesn't handle all that drama just perfectly, he's hopelessly inept at dealing with women, and therefore, most likely gay? Give unto me a break. > PS: Ron isn't gay. Snape is. Everybody else is reader's choice. I > have spoken. I'll let you know when I think you're right. Darrin From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 26 03:51:12 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 03:51:12 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78787 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > > > > entropymail wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > > > > is in leagues with LV. > > > > > > > > > Because Fudge is not a DE. If he was, he would have had Harry come get > > his prophecy and would have been there when it was 'opened' to report > > what it contained to LV.. Easy as pie and noone would question the > > presence of Fudge when the prophecy was revealed at all. > > > > Fudge could also have easily arranged for LV to come get the prophecy > > himself, but he didn't. > > > > Jazmyn > > Then how did the DE's gain entry into the DOM? And LV was ther shortly after Harry, > was he also allowed in? Fudge could not just present Harry with the prophecy, it > would have raised too many eyebrows and Fudge's cover would have been blown. By > having Harry show as he did, Fudge was likely to be done with Harry once and for all, > and then could openly support LV. With Harry, the only know defense against LV, still > running around, Fudge can't pick the winning side, because he doesn't know who will > win in the end. And, I think, that is what is keeping Fudge hemming and hawing > about LV rising again. Even at the end of OotP, Fudge was still reluctant to give in > and state that he had risen once again. > > Just my opinion. > > Severus I agree with Severus. I posted a similar idea a while back. And we all know that bad guys always tell the truth and never cover their own butts so they won't look bad....sarcasm. Susan From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 26 04:08:06 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:08:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sorting (Was:Re: Blood and Artifice (was The Sorting Hat)) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78788 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Simon Crowe" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" > wrote: > > > Annemehr: > (large snip) > > > > I think it's quite clear from the books by now that many students > > have quite a mix of qualities, Harry included, of what suits a > > student for any of the houses. Harry himself also carries > > some "Slytherinliness" that was transferred to him from LV. > > However, at heart Harry is all Gryffindor, and I believe the hat > > would have discerned that in the end anyway. > > > Simon: > I agree that everything points to Harry belonging in Gryffindor > except the Slytherinly (I like that word) qualities he acquired from > Voldemort (according, at least, to DD). I don't think the Sorting > Hat would have ever actually placed HP in Slytherin -- too many > qualities that Slytherins don't possess. I think this is > demonstrated by HP's almost immediate conflict with an archetypal > Slytherin -- Draco. This is > consistent with what seems to be the overwhelming majority's > conclusion that the Hat's decisions are based (perhaps) entirely on a > student's "qualities" (character?) as opposed to traits with which > s/he might have been born -- like physical constitution, remarkable > good looks, the ability to speak to snakes... ? > > Simon Reading this post brings to mind a conversation in SS/PS between McGonagall and Dumbledore. McGonagall has just been chastised by Dumbledore for not calling Voldemort by his proper name....She says...."But you're different. Everyone knows you're the only one You-Know-oh, all right, Voldemort, was frightened of."..... Dumbledore blushes and denies the same powers....McGonagall continues with.."Only because you're too--well--noble to use them." This tells me that most wizards posess the same skill ability. Whether their skills mature or how they decide to use them is what the sorting hat is looking for. Mostly I think it reads their heart and personality and possibly upbringing when determining which house each person goes to. Just my thoughts, Susan From entropymail at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 16:56:52 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 16:56:52 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78789 Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but I was wondering if anyone had any ideas about Mrs. Norris and, consequently, Argus Filch. Out of all of the HP characters, I feel that Mrs. Norris and Filch (and McGonagall, but that's another post!) have been seen quite a bit, but explained very little. I don't recall ever hearing about how Filch came to be at Hogwarts, or anything about his attachment to Mrs. Norris. Why does she have a human name? Could she be someone who had been irreversibly transfigured, or an animagus who got "stuck"? I'm always suspicious when JKR omits background info on characters like this. Any thoughts, guys? Entropy From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 26 04:38:58 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 04:38:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78790 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > But Mrs Figg lied, didn't she? If the monocle is a truth potion, > it's not a very good one. Mrs. Figg didn't actually see the > dementors like she claimed- remember the way she stumbled over how > they moved? She certainly didn't see them attack Dudley, she wasn't > even there at the start of the attack, she arrived afterwards. The > impression I got was that squibs, like muggles, can't see dementors > at all, only feel them, and that Arabella had been coached on what to > say. > > Erin I'm sorry, but I don't think she lied. If she did not see them, how did she know that there were dementors there? She didn't run up to the boys asking what happened. She told them what happened. I think she stumbled because she 1) felt that she failed DD 2) she is only a squib in front of a wizard court. Just my opinion, Susan From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 05:14:59 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 05:14:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78791 "darrin_burnett" wrote:... And the Sergeant Majorette responds: <<>> She *doesn't* have a half ounce of security. She's a whole year older than Harry, give her a break. How much experience does she have? Harry's failings don't make Cho a bitch. <<>> Her friend was trying to protect her mother, a Ministry employee. People side with their parents. People defend their friends. <<>> He not only doesn't handle the drama perfectly, he doesn't handle the fact that other people have dramas at all. He's either gay or a total Richard Head. <<>> Maybe I should have been more specific about that herbal tea. Chamomile. Some of us are getting into the guarana, and we can't have that. I say again, chamomile. If Cho's a bitch, then Harry's gay. Call it a draw. --JDR ("How can you call Romeo and Juliet" a tragedy? Any story that ends up with fewer teenagers than it starts out with can't be a tragedy! Freddy Krueger's a hero! He kills teenagers!" -Bobby Slayton) From mev532 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 03:30:54 2003 From: mev532 at yahoo.com (Mev532) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 03:30:54 -0000 Subject: Tonks. There arn't accidents. Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78792 Just joined. Board is awesome. anyway, too the point. I just re-read GOF and read OOTF (totally impressed, just awesome) but have questions about Tonks. She seemed to stick out for me as a distinct character who I expected to play a larger role. Then she doesn't. I think somethings up. Little details arn't dropped for no reason (quick Examples: knocking quirrel (the real culprit)over in SS when trying to stop snape from casting a spell on harry's broomstick, Mentioning the bugs in GOF that end up being Rita Skeeter) so why mention the clumsy nature and shape shifting? Is there any instance of an unsusual disturbance that might indicate clumsy tonks is tailing harry? What role do you think she will play in future books? Could one of harrys classmates, or some other character, be Tonks and he doesn't realize it? Any speculations? From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Aug 26 01:59:04 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 20:59:04 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion References: Message-ID: <3F4ABEE8.2030801@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78793 severusbook4 wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" > wrote: > > Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. > > Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too > > impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. > > They do celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ), and they observe > Easter (the > ressurection of Christ), so in my opinion it has a Christian base. > > I have not seen a wizard or witch create life from clay, or a planet > from an empty > void, so they are not like Him. What I have seen seems very small > compared to His > power and wisdom. > > And I am a happy little pagan of Dianic Wicca. > > Severus Snape They also celebrate Halloween, which is not technically a Christian holiday no matter how you argue what its beginnings were. Many Christian religions in fact reject Halloween as a holiday. Some evan claim it is Satanic in nature. (The whole night on Bald Mountain, witches dancing with the devil idea). It might be the observance of 'popular' holidays parallels the muggle schools and in fact, may be more an influence from wizards who have come from muggle backgrounds. Or the overall influence of being based in the UK. If it were wizards in China, I am sure they would celebrate popular Chinese national holidays. I would bet that American Wizards celebrate Thanksgiving. All I see is the observance of the popular 'national holidays' celebrated in that country (the UK), not evidence that all wizards are Christians or any other one religion. I am sure there would be a close percentage of the same religions or lack of religion in the WW as in the muggle world. Jazmyn From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 05:50:19 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 05:50:19 -0000 Subject: Malfoy's Goal in CoS (was: Re: Lucius Malfoy, Voldemort and World Domination) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78794 CW commented: >>To me, this passage clearly indicates that the Tom Riddle of the diary is fully aware of his future, and who he became, and is indeed one and the same person in this scene, so I am not sure how Lucius Malfoy could have thought he could manipulate a schoolboy Voldemort. But perhaps Lucius misunderstood the nature of the 'being' that was held between the diary's pages ?<< KathyK replied: >But if it helps clarify how I interpreted Diary!Tom's above statement, read message # 78653. In that post, I wrote some of the reasons why I believe Diary!Tom is self-contained and not in any way connected to the present Voldemort.< CW then replied: >>Yes, I've read your post, and it is an interesting idea that he only knows what has happened through what Ginny etc may have told him, but the 'odd red gleam in his hungry eyes' ? I thought this description was a real giveaway. I think his eyes only got this creepy after he left school and sunk himself in the dark arts ? I still think the Diary was one of his long-term ploys to avoid death, and it so nearly succeeds ! I agree that Malfoy almost certainly would not have wanted him to reappear though.<< KathyK again: I concede the point. I still like my idea, but Voldemort and Diary! Tom being one in the same does make more sense the more I read and think about it. Not the least of reasons being the conflict of having two Voldemorts existing in the world. Neither would stand for it. Although they *could* team up and try to take on Harry. They'd have a better shot with two Dark Lords. (That last bit was a little facetious, in case you were wondering) So now I'm left asking, and I think I read a similar question recently, what happens if Diary!Tom succeeded? He'd be restored, but as what? Would he be just a sixteen-year-old again with the past experiences of Voldemort? Would the Diary!Tom subsume the not really alive but not really dead Voldemort? He's the one with a body after all. When he came alive, would the Voldemort hiding out in Albania just cease to exist, in a sense, because he already exists because he is Tom Riddle? I still like to think Malfoy would have tried to control Diary!Tom and would have taken perverse pleasure had he succeeded. Which he couldn't have because Voldemort would be all too aware of what he was trying to do, as he is both Diary!Tom and the current Voldemort. KathyK From cborsoi at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 05:00:33 2003 From: cborsoi at hotmail.com (Carla Borsoi) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 05:00:33 +0000 Subject: generational parallels Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78795 First time poster, de-lurking There's been a lot flying around concerning generational parallels between the MWPP and HRH groups, but I'm curious about the parallels back to the founders of Hogwarts. If we take it that LV represents the heir of Slytherin and that Harry likely is the heir of Gryffindor, I find it lacking that we would not have heirs for both Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. The reason this nags at me is that we hear the new S-hat song at the beginning of OOTP and it bespeaks the need for the four houses to re-unite. I don't believe it is possible to re-emerge with a common goal (originally to educate wizards) solely on the basis of two representatives in the current era for this to be true. If so, who would these representatives be? I think that Luna is a good start for Ravenclaw - she was brought in a much more well-formed character than other students we've met over the past couple years and has definitely played a role that is more than window dressing. I'm struggling with a Hufflepuff, Justin and Ernie don't work and I feel like we need the m/f balance that we see in original four (2 men, 2 women). So, out of the characters we've met that would leave Susan Bones and Hannah Abbott as some of the more well-realized ones. I've not fleshed this idea out further, but would be interested in thoughts/commentary, etc. -Carla _________________________________________________________________ Enter for your chance to IM with Bon Jovi, Seal, Bow Wow, or Mary J Blige using MSN Messenger http://entertainment.msn.com/imastar From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Tue Aug 26 06:09:08 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:09:08 -0000 Subject: Muggle Clothes (WAS Exploring prejudice) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78796 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Sue Porter" wrote: > > > Kneasy wrote: > >. I'll lay long odds that any adult > >wizard seen in Muggle clothes is not pureblood. > > > > Sue: > > Just a quick point about this. In OoTP, I think it's Harry makes a comment > about seeing Prof. McG in muggle clothes coming to headquarters. Plus I > remember reading a reference to the Weasley children wearing muggle clothes > in the holidays. > > However, I understand that your point was probably that they don't wear > muggle clothes as a preference over wizarding robes. > > Sue > > Now me (Cindy): Hello, I am coming out of lurkedom to comment a little on this - I believe that Prof. McG. was in muggle clothing because she was in disguise. she was disguised as a muggle, working for the Order - so that she could spy or gather info. undercover. I also think that pureblood wizards do not make a habit of wearing muggle clothing, that is why I believe that in the books (not the film) Snape only ever wears robes ad cloaks. -Cindy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 06:28:48 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:28:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand, Dumbledore, Fawkes, Crookshanks In-Reply-To: <002701c36b66$bca0d900$79092244@parkvl01.md.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78797 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deirdre F Woodward" wrote: > orourkeg: > > Knowing the prophesy, might Dumbledore have commissioned the > > second wand using Fawkes' tail feather > > bboy_mn: > > >So this premonition of the need for a Phoenix wand in the future > >could havelead [Dumbledore}to commissioning it. > > me (Deirdre): > > pg 85, SS, Scholastic Press: "It so happens that the phoenix whose > tailfeather is in your wand, gave another feather . . . " > > I've always read this line as Fawkes giving the feather. I > read Fawkes as being independent and autonomous, making his own > decisions -- much like Crookshanks. I don't think Dumbledore had > anything to do with it, ...edited... > > Deirdre > Eight of Eight bboy_mn: Actually, I agree with you. There is a limited amount of information I can put in a post before the details start to obscure the point. But I do agree, I put out the idea a long time ago that you can't TAKE a feather from a Phoenix; it can only be willingly given. But that doesn't mean Dumbledore couldn't ask Fawkes to give a feather, and then take that feather and have a second wand made for Harry. On the other hand, we do see Fawkes give several feathers in the most recent book (OotP) as a means of delivering messages. Those are feathers willingly given but I'm not sure if they are suitable for wands. If they are suitable for wands then it is likely that Dumbledore has a collection of several of them, perhaps a dozen or more accumulated over time. In that case, Fawkes feathers would not be all that rare. There are some, myself included, who speculated that the Order of the Phoenix would be founded around a group of people who all had Fawkes feather wands custom made for them to give them an advantage in fighting Voldemort. That seems less likely now that Order of the Phoenix has been published, but the story line doesn't rule it out yet. Back to your main point, I agree an intelligent non-domesticated magical bird like Fawkes would not allow feathers to be plucked. They only way to get a Phoenix feather is if the phoenix willingly gives it up. Just a thought. bboy_mn From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 26 06:58:50 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 06:58:50 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78798 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > But Mrs Figg lied, didn't she? If the monocle is a truth potion, > it's not a very good one. Mrs. Figg didn't actually see the > dementors like she claimed- remember the way she stumbled over how > they moved? She certainly didn't see them attack Dudley, she wasn't > even there at the start of the attack, she arrived afterwards. The > impression I got was that squibs, like muggles, can't see dementors > at all, only feel them, and that Arabella had been coached on what to > say. I think she lied when she explained her reasons for being there (supposedly to buy catfood, really to look for Harry). That is when she blushes. She was clearly telling the truth when she described the attack itself. Not only did the details match (Dudley falling, Harry backing, trying and only succeeding the third time, then encouraging the Patronus to chase the other dementor), but her demeanor when describing the attack and the effects of the dementors on her was different - firm and confident. Madam Bones did not care for "why" Mrs. Figg was there. What she cared about was that there was a dementor attack on Harry that justified use of magic. So she ignored the little white lie at the beginning because the description of the attack was true. As for squibs not being able to see dementors - I disagree. We know that squibs have some magical abilities - they can communicate with cats for instance. They can see more than muggles. Remember what Hermione said about how muggles can't see Hogwarts, yet Filch is not only able to see it but navigate it much better than the magical people living in it. I think that while squibs can't *do* magic, they can sense it and other things that us poor muggles can't. Think of a squib as a learning disabled person - he has some abilities, but not enough to function in the "real" world without help. Salit From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 26 07:05:01 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:05:01 -0000 Subject: Religion In-Reply-To: <3F4ABEE8.2030801@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78799 > Jazmyn wrote: > All I see is the observance of the popular 'national holidays' > celebrated in that country (the UK), not evidence that all wizards > are Christians or any other one religion. I am sure there would be > a close percentage of the same religions or lack of religion in > the WW as in the muggle world. > Pip!Squeak: Ollivander uses 'Makers of Fine Wands since 382 B.C.' [PS/SS Ch. 5]. This supports the idea that some wizards are (actively or nominally) Christian. 'BC' (Before Christ) both implies that the birth of Christ was important, and uses a title associated with Christian claims (Christos, Lord or messiah). So someone of a non-Christian religion would be more likely IMO to use something like B.C.E (Before Common Era). Pip!Squeak From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 07:31:40 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:31:40 -0000 Subject: Dementors and Squibs, esp. Figgy (was:Harry's Wand - not a coincidence?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78800 Erin: >But Mrs Figg lied, didn't she? If the monocle is a truth potion, >it's not a very good one. Mrs. Figg didn't actually see the >dementors like she claimed- remember the way she stumbled over how >they moved? She certainly didn't see them attack Dudley, she >wasn't even there at the start of the attack, she arrived >afterwards. The impression I got was that squibs, like muggles, >can't see dementors at all, only feel them, and that Arabella had >been coached on what to say. > Susan >I'm sorry, but I don't think she lied. If she did not see them, how >did she know that there were dementors there? She didn't run up to >the boys asking what happened. She told them what happened. I >think she stumbled because she 1) felt that she failed DD 2) she is >only a squib in front of a wizard court. > Just my opinion, I think, as Erin said, Squibs can *feel* dementors. Since it seems evident Arabella Figg was raised by her wizard parents in the WW, she would know all about Azkaban and dementors. So when she felt them, she recognized them for what they were. Dumbledore probably warned her specifically about dementors, in case the left MOM control and rejoined Voldemort. It would be logical for Voldemort to send them after Harry: muggles can't see them, they drain a wizard of his powers and Voldemort had no way of knowing Harry could produce a corporeal Patronus at that time, once they've *kissed* you, there's no coming back. "This is *exactly* what Dumbledore was afraid of!" (empahasis JKR, OoP pg21 US hardcover) This could either mean he was afraid of dementors, like I already suggested, or the more devious idea, of someone forcing Harry to do magic outside of school and giving Fudge the ammo to try and get him expelled. Although Dumbledore manages to save the day on that one: Fudge has no authority to expel students. But a conviction of illegal underage magic would have followed him all his life, making it that much harder for anyone to take him seriously. Back to Figgy: her evidence was less than stellar. Besides saying they run instead of glide, she said "Oh." said Mrs. Figg, the pink flush creeping up her neck now. "They were big. Big and wearing cloaks." (pg144) No one would describe a dementor this way. No mention of thin, or, more notably, hoods. The first thing everyone says when describing demetors is 'hooded'. You cannot see their faces. You cannot see that they cannot see. You cannot see how they administer the 'kiss'. This is one of those cases where the unknown is actually less frightening than the reality, but even the unknown element is sufficently frightning to make an impact. The flush seems to confirm that she is lying. Most people who don't normally lie, do so. Plus, she is lying *in court*, *under oath*. Not many people could do that. The other facts she *does* get right are ones that were very easily obtained from Dumbledore. So I think she was lying, but it was a nessecary lie. When the government is corrupt, you have to work outside of it. ~Margaret From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Tue Aug 26 07:50:59 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:50:59 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78801 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > > is in leagues with LV. > > > Excellent post, severusbook4. Just one thought occurs to me: if Fudge > is truly in league with Voldemort, and not the idiot that he pretends > to be, then why would Voldemort have so much trouble retrieving the > prophecy from the Department of Mysteries? Couldn't Fudge have just > gotten him in somehow, without detection? > Who's to say he didn't? Is it normally that easy for Death Eaters to get into the Ministry of Magic? --Arcum From quigonginger at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 08:05:22 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:05:22 -0000 Subject: Religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78802 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" > wrote: > > Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. > > Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too > > impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. Ginger's input: Well, the state to the east of me has a capital called St. Paul. I know enough Minnesotans to know that they are not all Christian, and that those who are take no offence that their capital is not named St. Peter (or any other saint). In other words, the people who founded it were probably Christian and/or thought St. Paul was a really groovy guy. Maybe they disagreed with him on many issues, but had to admit he had style. :) Severus "insert something here ;)" Snape added: > They do celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ), and they observe Easter (the > ressurection of Christ), so in my opinion it has a Christian base. Ginger again: I really don't see them as celebrating the birth or resurrection of Christ, I see them celebrating friends and family and presents, which can most certainly be done in conjunction with the religious or without it. The timing of the celebrations is in conjunction with the religious holidays, and there may be some wizards who do celebrate religiously, but we only see from a HRH PoV, and they don't. Severus again: > I have not seen a wizard or witch create life from clay, or a planet from an empty > void, so they are not like Him. What I have seen seems very small compared to His > power and wisdom. Ginger adds: Good point. One could also question that with all our technological "miracles" how we who think God is all that great can do so. Add to your list all the unexplained mysteries of the universe: love, faith, truth, wisdom... Technology and wizardry can't create them. Religion has stepped in to fill the void in our understanding, although certainly not to everyone's individual tastes or beliefs. > And I am a happy little pagan of Dianic Wicca. > > Severus Snape And I am a happy little Christian. Peace amongst us all. Ginger From hulahulagirl205 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 25 16:54:55 2003 From: hulahulagirl205 at yahoo.com (Nadia Kennedy) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:54:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030825165455.99266.qmail@web60106.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78803 I have just joined this discussion group and while reading the seeming thousands of posts that have flooded my Inbox, I have noticed that quite a few seem to dwell on the subject of Harry's sexuality and the sexual preference of other characters. I'm going to throw my two cents in here and never write another word about this subject again. I swear. First, Severus, you are right about the whole attraction to Bill thing. It is silly. I believe that another post (I'm sorry, I can't remember who) clearly explained why Harry reacted to Bill in the manner that he did, and it had nothing to do with sexual attraction. I totally agree that we can admire and (platonically) love members of the same sex. Second, Lori, you had a very good point about JKR not having any same-sex relationships because of the fact that this is, after all, a children's book series. And to be honest, children are not interested in who sleeps with whom. They seem to judge people on their actions and how adults relate to children. Thirdly, let me put in my own observation. I have friends who are homosexuals. When I have asked them when they knew they were gay or "different", they immediately said that they knew it from a very young age (like 5 or 6). If Harry was gay, we would have known it from the first book, when he was 11. It is normal for a straight 15 year old male to be nervous around girls, have difficulty in relating to them, and be a mass of rushing hormones. As one person so succinctly posted, 'Harry is not on my gaydar.' The speculations on the sexual preferences of Tonks and Prof. Grubley-Planks due to their appearance is so stereotypical that it is laughable. Pul-eeze. Now the one person who I have a sneaking suspicion that may be gay (although I have a feeling that I may never know for certain) is Prof. Umbridge. I have seen instances, in both sexes, that they become super-masculine or feminine in order to fool either themselves or others in to thinking that they are "normal" or straight. I know that it is sad, but it is true, but her sexual preference is neither here nor there (at least for me) in regards to the story. O.K. That's it for that subject. I've finished my rant now. "Nadia Kennedy" From mlacats at aol.com Mon Aug 25 21:48:25 2003 From: mlacats at aol.com (mlacats at aol.com) Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 17:48:25 EDT Subject: Is Lupin skilled at Leglimency? Message-ID: <64.3381b4d6.2c7bde29@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78804 RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > I knew it wasn't the only time Lupin did that, and, sure enough, > I found this, "'It has nothing to do with weakness,' said Professor > Lupin sharply, as though he had read Harry's mind." (PoA p.187 > paperback, US ver) > > Just food for thought, perhaps we'll see this aspect of Lupin come > out in one of the future books. >>> Andrea: > I agree... there is more evidence of Lupin's possible Legilimency > skills in OoP also. > > Chapter Three - The Advance Guard > pg. 50 US Edition > pg. 49 &40 UK Edition > Harry inclined his head awkwardly at each of them as they were > introduced. He wished they would look at something other than him; > it was as though he had suddenly been ushered onstage. He also > wondered why so many of them were there. > "A surprising number of people volunteered to come and get you," > said Lupin, as though he had reqad Harry's mind; the corners of his > mouth twitched slightly. > > Yes, I definitely think there is something about Lupin! >>> Yes, Jenny, Andrea and those who have brought the idea of Lupin being a legilimens out... I've read OotP twice and did not pick this up. I concur entirely and I hope its true. I love Remus and would just love to see him do something special in connection with Harry. This could be a way of Remus to connect with Harry, being the only one that's worth anything, left of the Marauders. The thought that Harry would have picked up the skill of Legilimency from V is entirely plausible since Harry has picked up other skills from V when he received that scar, including Parseltongue. I love Melanie's thought about the 'gentle' Remus' giving Harry Occlumency lessons but I also agree with the person who said that it fits that Snape would have been the one since D trusts him and I feel there's a very close connection between D and Snape which we still have to find out about in coming books. Harriet From phluxist at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 07:28:56 2003 From: phluxist at yahoo.com (phluxist) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:28:56 -0000 Subject: generational parallels / Heir of Hufflepuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78805 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Carla Borsoi" wrote: (cut) I find it lacking that we would not have heirs for both Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw. The reason this nags at me is that we hear the new S-hat song at the beginning of OOTP and it bespeaks the need for the four houses to re- unite. I don't believe it is possible to re-emerge with a common goal (originally to educate wizards) solely on the basis of two representatives in the current era for this to be true. If so, who would these representatives be? I think that Luna is a good start for Ravenclaw- she was brought in a much more well-formed character than other students we've met over the past couple years and has definitely played a role that is more than window dressing. I'm struggling with a Hufflepuff, Justin and Ernie don't work and I feel like we need the m/f balance that we see in original four (2 men, 2 women). So, out of the characters we've met that would leave Susan Bones and Hannah Abbott as some of the more well-realized ones. (cut) ..... Me: Now, I know that the films and the books are different, but it is widely known that JK does work with the screenwriter for each new film. And although she has said that she doesn't give info to him readily, she has admitted that he, perhaps, knows more about the future of the series and characters than anyone else. With that said, has anyone noticed that the girl that plays Susan Bones is ALL OVER the first two movies. She's never addressed much, but she's always there in the background. Possibly this might be because the actress is actually Chris Columbus' daughter. Although, she could have easily been cast as Susan Bones AFTER the screenplay ) including extra assignments) was finished. JK has said some interesting stuff in the DVD interviews from the films. Notably, that book 6 has an important relevance with a seemingly insignigicant element in the film version of CoS. I wouldn't be surprised if JK has also encouraged certain *lesser* characters to appear more often than not in the background shots of the films. -Phlux From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 08:39:38 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 08:39:38 -0000 Subject: Tonks house, was Heir of Slytherin In-Reply-To: <1a5.186051d4.2c7becc3@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78806 furkin1712 at a... wrote: >I agree, Tonks (like Sirius mind you) was blasted off the family >wall (also like her mother) because she did not show the Black >nature of mudblood hating and cruelty, other such harsh things that >were shown to be the strengths of the Black family. Tonks was not blasted off the tapestry, she was never ON the tapestry. Her mother married a muggle born wizard, and this marriage is not represented either, it's what got Andromeda blasted off. [Sirius said] "Of course, anytime the family produced someone halfway decent they were disowned. I see Tonks isn't on here. Maybe that's why Kreacher won't take orders from her - he's supposed to do whatever anyone in the family asks him..." "You and Tonks are related?" Harry asked, surprised. "Oh yeah, her mother, Andromeda was my favorite cousin." said Sirius, examining the tapestry closely. "No, Andromeda's not on here either, look-" He pointed to a small round burn mark between two names, Bellatrix and Narcissa "Andromeda's sisters are still here because they made lovely, respectable, pure-blood marriages, but Andromeda married a muggle born, Ted Tonks so--" (OoP pg 113 US hardcover) ~Margaret From helen at odegard.com Tue Aug 26 08:42:15 2003 From: helen at odegard.com (Helen R. Granberry) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 01:42:15 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Tonks. There arn't accidents. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000001c36bad$f465eaa0$6401a8c0@helenw1> No: HPFGUIDX 78807 Just joined. Board is awesome. anyway, too the point. I just re-read GOF and read OOTF (totally impressed, just awesome) but have questions about Tonks. She seemed to stick out for me as a distinct character who I expected to play a larger role. Then she doesn't. I think somethings up. Little details arn't dropped for no reason (quick Examples: knocking quirrel (the real culprit)over in SS when trying to stop snape from casting a spell on harry's broomstick, Mentioning the bugs in GOF that end up being Rita Skeeter) so why mention the clumsy nature and shape shifting? Is there any instance of an unsusual disturbance that might indicate clumsy tonks is tailing harry? What role do you think she will play in future books? Could one of harrys classmates, or some other character, be Tonks and he doesn't realize it? Any speculations? Hi there ? I have a few Tonks related speculations. She is most definitely my favorite new character from OotP. She?s important, certainly, and like you I was surprised she didn?t take a bigger role in OotP. I was so afraid she was going to be EVIL, and was very glad she wasn?t. First and foremost, I think she is there to introduce the concept of the Metamorphmagus. Personally, I think Harry himself is a Metamorphmagus, given the incident described in the first book involving him re-growing his hair overnight. I thought it was significant that the first bit of Metamorphmagi magic we see is Tonks changing her hair. Given how it is reiterated over and over how difficult self-transfiguration is, I don?t think Harry re-growing his hair in PS/SS was typical accidental magic. Much like talking to the snake, it was indicative of a special gift. As for Tonks being someone posing as a Hogwarts student tailing Harry, I think it is possible, but if it is the case, it is a recent development. She has only been an Auror for one year, after all. I?ve heard speculation that she is Luna (impossible as they were in the same room in the MoM) as well as Neville because of the clumsiness (again, impossible for the same reason). I think the clumsiness may be because she changes bodies frequently and it is difficult to adjust going back and forth OR she is just naturally clumsy and her clumsiness may be something that could be used as a clue to give away her disguise later (or someplace in OotP... hmmm....). Another possibility, though unlikely, is Tonks as a potential LI for Harry. She?s cool, she?s an Auror (which Harry wants to be), she?s light hearted (unlike Hermione), she?s related to Sirius and she reaches out to Harry at a few different points in the book (offering to help him pack, trying to make him feel comfortable, reassuring him on not making Prefect, on the bus to St. Mungos, getting him the toy Firebolt Christmas present). She is 6-7 years older, BUT Harry is old beyond his years. His potential LI?s seem to be limited to Hermione and possibly Ginny as pretty much all of the girls Harry's age are light years behind him. He's got the weight of the world on his shoulders, and with the exception of Hermione, none of the girls in his age group are really his equal. It's a stretch, but certainly a possibility. While Tonks is shown to be very clumsy, she is also shown to be quite capable. While on the job, she is very no nonsense (thinking taking the kids to KC and back to Hogwarts on the Knight Bus) and she holds her own at the MoM. Something else I noticed... in the Career Advice chapter, McG mentions no one had been accepted into Auror training in three years -- that would seem to coincide with the time frame Tonks would have begun her training. They don't let just anyone in, so clearly, she's a very intelligent, capable witch, despite being too much of a mischief maker to have made Prefect. There is more to her than meets the eye. I find myself reading her scenes over and over, trying to puzzle her out. Helen From theo_kestrel at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 09:29:57 2003 From: theo_kestrel at yahoo.com (theo_kestrel) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:29:57 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78808 Jumping in with both feet without testing the waters' depth... --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > Harry gets over the veela almost immediately, but Ron never quite > does, and every time he encounters Fleur, who is only one-quarter > veela, he gets silly. > > --JDR I haven't been following this line of discussion, and this is the first time I've even glanced at this group in months, but this statement twigged my Spidey-senses :). Just because Harry gets over the veela very quickly and is unaffected by Fleur later on doesn't provide conclusive proof that he is gay by any stretch of the imagination. It's quite evident from the DADA class that Ron is extremely vulnerable to Imperious- it's implied that he's worse than others at resisting it. One can make a fairly straight-line (sic) deduction from that evidence that his will is easily bent by outside forces, thus the ease in which he succumbs to the veela charms. Harry's non-reaction to the veela after the initial "hit" and to Fleur simply demonstrates his strength of mind and will. Nothing at all to do with his sexuality. Your eagerness to to make broad sweeping judgements from the smallest bits of "evidence" seems to tell of your personal beliefs projecting onto the character of Harry. It's natural, and everyone does it, but if you want to convince others, you'll need to find something more substantial than that. theo_kestrel trying to convince others of the secret Umbridge/Flich affair while inhaling fumes in the Divination classroom and divining the release dates of Book 6 and 7. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Tue Aug 26 10:30:58 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:30:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference; supporting opinions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78809 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Let's leave anti-gay prejudice out of this, which we should do. There > is a principle of canon interpretation here: the more radical the > theory, the higher the wall of proof should be. To take the current > examples: > If Harry is gay, that is a revolution in our understanding of Harry's > character. I'm sure I've seen nothing in canon to make me believe it > or even consider the possibility; quite the contrary, we've seen a lot > about Harry's attraction to Cho, and he's at least noticed Hermione. > Therefore, if you want to argue that Harry is gay, you need something > very, very good in canon if you want your argument to be taken > seriously. You're making a big proposition, so you need big proof. I > don't believe opinions are all equal ? some have better, more > persuasive arguments than others. > > You might answer, "Why is Harry being gay a big proposition? What's > the big deal?" Well, it is a big deal. Our sexual identities are a > huge part of what we are; to most of the gay people I know, it is a > central part of their identity. Maybe it would be a better world if > it wasn't so big a deal, but it is. > > This concept of "big idea/big proof" is a big concept to me, anyway. > There's lots of theories proposed on this board and elsewhere that I > feel are absolute horsefeathers, without a shred of support for them, > and I feel about them the same way as I do about the Gay > Harry/Ron/Hermione theories. OTOH, I can accept someone saying "I have > no proof, but my gut instinct is...." or anything similar. > > So, Evangeline, I think the heavier burden of proof should fall on > people with more far-reaching hypotheses. > > > Jim Ferer Oh, but I don't support the gay Harry theory. I never said I did, either. I= t doesn't really matter to me if is straight, gay or bi. Nor am I much of a SHIPper in the f= irst place. I do however think it's pretty absurd that a lot of people seem to think that= any gay SHIP is completely out of question. Why would it be? I agree with anyone wh= o states that it wouldn't mean anything to the storyline, but I don't see that as a = good argument against why it would never happen. Personally I don't think Ginny = dating Michael Corner does much for the storyline (yes I know he probably went to = the Hog's Head because Ginny was his girlfriend, but he could just as well have been = a friend of hers), but we find out anyway. So why not a similar mentioning of a gay rel= ationship? Most SHIPs are guesses anyway, aren't they? When you say we need proof to s= ay that Harry is gay, I guess you don't necessarily mean that gay SHIPs in general = need more proof than straight ones, cause I don't see how that would be necessary. An= yone ending up with *anyone*... is any of it really relevant to the storyline? A= ctually the reason I wrote the post you are replying to, was that I read two posts from= the same person (no need to name names... ;)): first one against gay Harry, then one= with SHIPs. I guess that could have been a little unfair of me, but that's my st= andard reaction to what I interpret (underline those two words three or so times, = just to be sure) as double standards. I just don't see why on earth gay relationships = have to be completely out of the question when we spend so much time constructing stra= ight SHIPs. Because if it doesn't do much for the storyline in the first place, = I don't see a reason to rule it out as it won't matter anyway. I don't believe that Harry himself is gay though, simply because I think it= is sort of irrelevant to the storyline (although so far I think the Cho Chan thang was= too), and it seems to me that many of those who have speculated on that theory are just = having a bit of fun with the idea. That was however not the subject of my post. It w= as pro gay SHIPping, not much else. Man, this turned out long. evangelina who has her heart in these issues and might get a little carried away ... From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 26 10:50:01 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:50:01 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time travel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308261250.01309.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78810 > Simariel wrote: > I thought that before reading Talisman's post, 78370. She has > reversed your argument, that Harry survives because he > survives. > Melanie > Very interesting post ... so is she arguing that someone else > saved Harry in PoA? Sorry for being thick. Ups, not at all, it comes from a line of Talisman in the same thread, I have never got a problem with Yahoo search if I know the tittle, try copy and paste the whole tittle of the post and it will eventually appear. "POA Dementor Kiss on Harry - New Question" She is stating that Snape saved Harry, who else could. Someone (I can't find the other thread) recalled Harry seeing Snape's face during a Dementor&Oclumency scene in OoP, that it could be a memory (the shadow of a memory). I think Snape was not so badly injured in the Shrieking Shack. silmariel From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 10:56:14 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:56:14 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78811 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > > > > entropymail wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > > > > is in leagues with LV. > > > > > > > > > Excellent post, severusbook4. Just one thought occurs to me: if Fudge > > > is truly in league with Voldemort, and not the idiot that he pretends > > > to be, then why would Voldemort have so much trouble retrieving the > > > prophecy from the Department of Mysteries? Couldn't Fudge have just > > > gotten him in somehow, without detection? > > > > > > Entropy > > > > > > > > > Because Fudge is not a DE. If he was, he would have had Harry come get > > his prophecy and would have been there when it was 'opened' to report > > what it contained to LV.. Easy as pie and noone would question the > > presence of Fudge when the prophecy was revealed at all. > > > > Fudge could also have easily arranged for LV to come get the prophecy > > himself, but he didn't. > > > > Jazmyn > > Then how did the DE's gain entry into the DOM? And LV was ther shortly after Harry, > was he also allowed in? Fudge could not just present Harry with the prophecy, it > would have raised too many eyebrows and Fudge's cover would have been blown. By > having Harry show as he did, Fudge was likely to be done with Harry once and for all, > and then could openly support LV. With Harry, the only know defense against LV, still > running around, Fudge can't pick the winning side, because he doesn't know who will > win in the end. And, I think, that is what is keeping Fudge hemming and hawing > about LV rising again. Even at the end of OotP, Fudge was still reluctant to give in > and state that he had risen once again. > > Just my opinion. > > Severus And how did Nagini, at least I am assuming LV still has Nagini get into the MOM, and down to the Dept of Mysteries the night she bit Arthur Weasley. And think about Harry's year at Hogwarts, all along it seems like Umbridge is trying to get rid of him either by making him so angry, or getting him expelled. Harry would be alot easier to get to if he were away from Hogwarts, Fran From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 11:06:57 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:06:57 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78812 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "spedlegs4169" > wrote: > > One other thought on all of this, there have been plenty of > > times where Harry and Fudge have been in the same room, and I may > > have to check this, but i do believe that Fudge has touched Harry > > (I'm thinking of when Harry arrives at the Leaky Cauldron in PoA). > > If Fudge was a DE wouldn't Harry's scar have hurt if Fudge had > > touched him if he is a Death Eater, his scar hurt when he was near > > Umbridge or when Umbridge touched him. So wouldn't it be the same > > with Fudge the DE? > > -RJ > > > No, because; > > 1. Umbridge isn't a proven death eater. > > 2. Umbridge wasn't the one who caused Harry's scar to hurt. It hurt > because Voldemort was feeling a strong surge of emotion related to > Sturgis Podmore's attempt to get the prophecy at the time. Umbridge > just happened to be near Harry. > > And also, I don't think anyone besides Voldemort CAN make the scar > hurt. I don't think its something that holds true for all the DEs, > otherwise Harry could be used as a sort of living dark detector- just > push him up against suspects, and if he yells, arrest the person > immediately! > > So Fudge touching Harry proves nothing. Mind you, I think it has > been made pretty clear the Fudge is NOT a DE, otherwise the whole > fifth book's plot would have been pretty pointless. > > Erin And its not proven she is not. She does seem to know how to use a cruciatus curse and was willing to use it on Harry. It was Sirius who suggested the Potters us Petter Pettigrew as scret keeper, and he was dead wrong about that one. Excuse the pun! In OOTP, he says Umbridge may be mean but not a DE. Golly Gee, Sirius has been wrong before..... Fudge being a DE is a point in the plot as the MOM is so totally against the idea of LV being back. This gives LV pleanty of time to round up old supporters and acquire new. The denial of LV's return also makes life for the Order very hard, especially on Sirius. If Fudge had believed DD, then he may have had a change of heart on Sirius. fran From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 11:11:45 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:11:45 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78813 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Batchevra at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/25/03 1:13:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > severusbook4 at y... writes: > > > > > Second in PoA, the dementors left their posts to invade the > > Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were > > all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's > > request? We think so. > > > > > > I just snipped this part to make an observation. Before the Dementors show up > at the Quidditch match in POA, Harry sees a black dog way up in the stands > watching the match. (Page 133, POA Uk) Could it be that the Dementors sensed > Sirius Black up in the stands? and were facing up because of that? Just another > thought to ponder. > > Batchevra Sirius did use Snuffles to get out of Azkaban so its unlikely. I dont think the dementors can detect Sirius when changes into a dog. Fran > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jferer at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 11:16:53 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:16:53 -0000 Subject: Understanding characters, was Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78814 Evangelina:" I agree with anyone who states that it wouldn't mean anything to the storyline, but I don't see that as a good argument against why it would never happen. Personally I don't think Ginny dating Michael Corner does much for the storyline (yes I know he probably went to the Hog's Head because Ginny was his girlfriend, but he could just as well have been a friend of hers), but we find out anyway." Evangelina:" I just don't see why on earth gay relationships have to be completely out of the question when we spend so much time constructing straight SHIPs. Because if it doesn't do much for the storyline in the first place, I don't see a reason to rule it out as it won't matter anyway." You're missing out on a lot if those details don't matter. These stories are as much about Harry growing up as they are about the plot, so the development of Harry and his friends as people is important to us and the storyline. It's a big part of the richness of JKR's creation. I want to know how Ginny is growing up, and whether she and Harry might find each other someday. SHIPpers have their own reasons for SHIPping, but part of it just about has to be an abiding interest in the characters as people. I happen to be a Harry/Hermione shipper because I see them as a perfect yin and yang, exactly complementary to each other, and see them converging. If I'm right, that's important to the storyline. I use my impressions of the characters to predict how they will behave in the future, so the characters do affect the plot. (You'd have a tough time figuring out Shakespeare if you didn't analyze characters.) Anything that touches on their identities affects the story as a whole. IOW, you have to get the characters right. So I disagree with any proposition that the personalities and identities of the characters don't matter. In the Potterverse, everything matters. Jim Ferer From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 11:26:22 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:26:22 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78815 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marvinhold" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > > > > severusbook4 wrote: > > (snip) > (more snipping) > > As was said, not every evil person is a DE. To be a DE, you have > to > > WANT to be one. There are apt to be many in the end who > UNKNOWINGLY did > > things to help LV, who would have died rather then become a DE. LV > and > > his DEs are very good at using others and manipulation. Even Harry > has > > been manipulated by LV, but does that make him a Jr DE? > > > > > Severus "I'm not a DE, He is." Snape > > > > > > > > > > > > Jazmyn > > > Excellent point and counter point. > > This my first post so please forgive me if this has been hashed out > already > > My question has always been: Fudge was the first MOM offical on the > scene after > Pettigrew blew himself and 12 muggles up and framed Sirius for the > crime, is this just > coincendence or is JKR alluding to more? > > Tim The framing of Sirius right off the bat seems to me that Fudge is trying to cover up Pettigrew's involvement with LV, and the Potter's death. It's also a little stringe that Fudge is the one at the Leaky Cauldron when Harry arrives. I know he is there on the premise of Harry's safety, but if Sirius had gotten to Harry and told his side of the story..... Fudge is still releuctant at the end of OOTP to admit LV is back. He shows no remorse in being wrong about LV's return. When I started the Fudge as DE theory, I said Fudge is a DE or a strong LV supporter. Being a supporter is as bad as being an actual DE IMHO. fran From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 12:03:51 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:03:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference; supporting opinions In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78816 evangelina wrote, in part: Personally I don't think Ginny dating Michael Corner does much for the storyline (yes I know he probably went to the Hog's Head because Ginny was his girlfriend, but he could just as well have been a friend of hers), but we find out anyway. So why not a similar mentioning of a gay relationship? To which I say: There is a very simple and believable explanation for why we are told that Ginny is dating Michael Corner. Ginny was too self-conscious to speak in front of Harry, then suddenly she is entirely confident, and willing not only to talk in front of him but to him, and to chide him for not remembering that she is the only person who can tell him what it is like to be possessed by LV/Tom Riddle. If we did not know that she was no-longer so stuck on Harry, having discovered that there are more approachable boys available, this shift in her behavior would be a little jarring for some, who would see it as inexplicable, and even as a Flint. So, even though most of us would see it as her growing a bit, JKR may have thought of this a problem, and so told us about her dating life. It should also be remembered that as Harry is now virtually a Weasley (Molly's Woes shows her seeing Harry's dead body) the members of that family have to be developed, and thus Ginny cannot remain merely some infatuated pre-pubescent who can't get over her personal awe for him. Redgarding a putative gay relationship, I won't be surprised if there is mention of one, but it would need to advance the story line. That isn't necessarily easily done. Even if it were to be done to restate a major theme (tolerance, cooperation, understanding, etc.), it would need to be tied into the story line, else it become gratuitous. There is also a simple marketing reason for not showing a gay couple. Even if we are tolerant of such an idea, that doesn't mean that every reader, or parent of a young reader, all over the World will be. The fact remains that there are significant percentages of the readership (and their parents) who are very intolerant of homosexuality. This marketing reason isn't just a matter of greed, though. There is a real benefit in having a series like this read by as many kids as a publisher can reach. It teaches tolerance, but it does so in part by constructing prejudices that are not real (pure-blood vs. all impure, dirt blood lines, etc.), and bring a very real controversy would tend to reduce the readership, and reduce the dissemination of the lessons being taught. I can easily believe JKR would decide NOT to include a gay relationship, choosing instead to let the synthetic prejudices of the series teach the lesson intended. But that's just my opinion ... Richard From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 12:11:12 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:11:12 -0000 Subject: Religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78817 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" wrote: > Pip!Squeak: > > Ollivander uses 'Makers of Fine Wands since 382 B.C.' [PS/SS Ch. > 5]. This supports the idea that some wizards are (actively or > nominally) Christian. > > 'BC' (Before Christ) both implies that the birth of Christ was > important, and uses a title associated with Christian claims > (Christos, Lord or messiah). So someone of a non-Christian religion > would be more likely IMO to use something like B.C.E (Before Common > Era). > > Pip!Squeak Yes, but B.C.E is a more modern usage, B.C. is more traditional and since Rowling tries to make the impression that Ollivander is very, very old, it seems likely that's why she used B.C. instead of B.C.E. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 12:13:39 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:13:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78818 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > > > I am willing to bet that > > wizard made glasses, monocles and the like do a lot more than just > > correct eyesight. For instance, Madam Bones' monocle (OoP, "The > > Hearing") is probably used by her as a sort of truth potion, > > otherwise, why would she be so quick to believe such a strange > > witness as Mrs. Figg? > > > > But Mrs Figg lied, didn't she? If the monocle is a truth potion, > it's not a very good one. Mrs. Figg didn't actually see the > dementors like she claimed- remember the way she stumbled over how > they moved? She certainly didn't see them attack Dudley, she wasn't > even there at the start of the attack, she arrived afterwards. The > impression I got was that squibs, like muggles, can't see dementors > at all, only feel them, and that Arabella had been coached on what to > say. > > Erin Mrs Figg did not lie, she did see them. Right after the attack when she came running up to Harry, and Harry starts to put away his wand, she tells him to keep it out as there may be MORE OF THEM. Then when dung reappears, Figg tells him there were Dementors in the area. Fran From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 12:18:47 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:18:47 -0000 Subject: Generational Parallels In-Reply-To: <161174005972.20030825102943@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78819 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Susanne wrote: > > > Hi, > > Monday, August 25, 2003, 7:04:56 AM, Serena wrote: > > > If anything, you can say > > that current generation has rebeled against the preset role, making > > it their own. Therefore, they are not doomed to repeat the mistakes > > of the older generation. Neville won't betray the trio, Draco either > > won't join the DE or will but not be redeemed, Hermione will not be > > an outcast, Ron will not go to Azkaban, and Harry won't die defending > > his son. > > What I don't understand is, why they should have a preset > role, and be doomed to repeat the mistakes others made, in > the first place. > > Where does this idea come from? > > -- > Best regards, > Susanne History repeats itself. It's a popular theme in literature and to a certain extent does happen in real life. Also by creating parallels, it gives the reader a point of reference in understanding the characters. In fact, Rowling used this to her advantage in the first four books, because many people inferred that the Mauraders where simply the trio+ of their generation, only to have that perception distorted by OotP. Serena From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 26 12:40:31 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:40:31 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78820 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > > wrote: > > > > > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > > > is in leagues with LV. > > > > > > Excellent post, severusbook4. Just one thought occurs to me: if Fudge > > is truly in league with Voldemort, and not the idiot that he pretends > > to be, then why would Voldemort have so much trouble retrieving the > > prophecy from the Department of Mysteries? Couldn't Fudge have just > > gotten him in somehow, without detection? > > > Who's to say he didn't? Is it normally that easy for Death Eaters to > get into > the Ministry of Magic? > > --Arcum Makes me wonder how Voldemort got in as a snake to begin with? Seems awfully odd that he got in and attacked Mr Weasley to start? Fudge IMO is just a moron who thinks that he is smarter and more powerful then Dumbledore when all he really is, is jealous that he will never amount to 1/2 the wizard that Dumbledore is. Which makes another good point. If Fudge is jealous of Dumbledore would he not join Voldemort, because even Quirrell said that there is only Power. Even mr ollivandar said that Voldemort did great things, terrible yes, but great. Fudge is just as power hungery as percy, but in a better position to place himself beside Voldemort. Lori From meboriqua at aol.com Tue Aug 26 12:43:15 2003 From: meboriqua at aol.com (jenny_ravenclaw) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:43:15 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78821 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote of Harry's sexuality in relation to how he handled things with Cho: > He not only doesn't handle the drama perfectly, he doesn't handle the fact that other people have dramas at all. He's either gay or a total Richard Head.> Canon, please? Where the hell is there evidence in the series that Harry is ATTRACTED to other boys? I know I am not a stupid person but I must be if I am missing something as big as this. JKR has given us ample evidence that girls turn Harry on, including the Veela (good point, btw for the one who mentioned that) and Cho. Just because Harry didn't handle things with her very well doesn't make him gay. In fact, that's not a very nice thing to say about gay men. Most of the gay men I know are quite fine people. Harry and Cho should never have happened. That is clear and JKR made the point and drove it home. Neither of them handled their situation with maturity or respect for the other. I can't chalk that up to sexuality, but simply to teenage behavior, which often sucks. I was blown off by plenty of boys when I was a teen and as far as I know, none of them are gay now. This is ridiculous. --jenny from ravenclaw ****************************** From taykimson at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 10:51:51 2003 From: taykimson at yahoo.com (taykimson) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:51:51 -0000 Subject: Harry's Wand - not a coincidence? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78822 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "orourkeg" wrote: > Knowing the prophesy, might Dumbledore have commissioned the second > wand using Fawkes' tail feather? It wouldn't be that much of a > stretch to expect that the wand would eventually choose Harry, given > the other links between Harry and Voldemort. This would be simply > once more protection that Dumbledore was able to convey to Harry. I > don't think it has been said anywhere that the two wands were created > at the same time. Tay: I would speculate (no canon to support) that both wands were made at the same time. The reason I believe this is based on the wood used to make both wands. Below is a cut and past from a great post from another message board (www.hpgalleries.co.uk) by a user named Diricrawl. He did some research on historical connections to different types of wood. I hope he doesn't mind my reference. Anyway this is what he found: "Harry's wand is made of holly. Evergreen holly is seen as the symbol of life and birth. It is one of the few signs of life in the snow of winter. It is the symbol of Christmas. Voldemort's wand is made of yew. A mirror image of Harry's wand, yew is a symbol of death and immortality. Yew berries are toxic and yew wood has been long used to make deadly longbows. They are among the oldest trees in existence; one yew in Ireland is believed to be nine thousand years old. This link between death and immortality means they have long been planted in graveyards, where their roots are said to enter the mouths of corpses." Given that these wands seem to be exact opposites, it would seem they were made at the same time as a balance of power (or something like that). It would seem strange that the first wand from Fawkes would be one that is destined for an evil wizard and then later (almost as an afterthought) a wand destined for a good wizard was made. Tay From leu02ram at rdg.ac.uk Tue Aug 26 12:13:59 2003 From: leu02ram at rdg.ac.uk (leu02ram) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:13:59 -0000 Subject: JKR interview -Susan Bones(was: Re: generational parallels / Heir of Hufflepuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78823 Phlux wrote: > Now, I know that the films and the books are different, but it is > widely known that JK does work with the screenwriter for each new > film. And although she has said that she doesn't give info to him > readily, she has admitted that he, perhaps, knows more about the > future of the series and characters than anyone else. > > With that said, has anyone noticed that the girl that plays Susan > Bones is ALL OVER the first two movies. She's never addressed much, > but she's always there in the background. Possibly this might be > because the actress is actually Chris Columbus' daughter. Although, > she could have easily been cast as Susan Bones AFTER the screenplay ) > including extra assignments) was finished. > > JK has said some interesting stuff in the DVD interviews from the > films. Notably, that book 6 has an important relevance with a > seemingly insignigicant element in the film version of CoS. I > wouldn't be surprised if JK has also encouraged certain *lesser* > characters to appear more often than not in the background shots of > the films. Now me (Rachel): The point JK says about the seemingly insignificant moment in the CoS film that will be important in book 6, is it too obvious that its the awkward moment between R/H? I think it is, just about everybody has picked up on it, which means its not insignificant at all. Now, i am an adamant R/H shipper but other than this moment, what could it be? The point Phlux makes about Susan Bones is very interesting; in book 5 we don't have a surprise personality of a character that we have had in every other book, so could Susan Bones be that very important one? I must admit i hated the films, so have only seen them a couple of times each (too much was missed out for my liking) but what did JKR insist go in the film, that hasn't been picked up in the books? Or, has it been picked up, so we don't consider it insignificant anymore??? This comment ny JK really baffles me, and as much as I hope we have a huge surprise about an existing character, i also want the R/H ship to work out, I'm torn... Thanks all, Rachel From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Tue Aug 26 12:46:26 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:46:26 -0000 Subject: Understanding characters, was Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78824 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > You're missing out on a lot if those details don't matter. These > stories are as much about Harry growing up as they are about the plot, > so the development of Harry and his friends as people is important to > us and the storyline. It's a big part of the richness of JKR's > creation. I want to know how Ginny is growing up, and whether she and > Harry might find each other someday. > > > So I disagree with any proposition that the personalities and > identities of the characters don't matter. In the Potterverse, > everything matters. > > Jim Ferer But I've heard a lot of people argue that a gay relationship does nothing for the storyline, and when you explain the importance of relationships in general like this, I really start to wonder what kind of storyline we are talking about here. If it's important to understand the characters - and I agree with you that it very much is - then I still don't see why it would be out of place to have someone gay among them. And if a gay relationship does nothing for the story - well, then a straight one doesn't do much either. Maybe the point is this quote of yours: "I use my impressions of the characters to predict how they will behave in the future" - to label someone as gay might not have much to do with the way they will behave. But I still don't see a problem. (of course not you say) JKR's characters are not affected by many, if any, of the ordinary muggle prejudices. (I've read some great posts on this matter.) They seem generally equal when it comes to gender, color, religion and so on. Even though sexuality might be out of place for a children's book, a few gay characters just participating in the dating game wouldn't be that bad, IMO. I realise, of course, that I can't demand everyone to agree with me. Some people surely would be appalled just by reading implied homosexuality. But still... I mean, really, what if JKR decided to consider the racists and not add any black people to her books? In my opinion, that's the same kind of prejudice. I hope you understand my point, after all this rambling it still feels like I'm forgetting something vital. evangelina heart still there From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 13:00:35 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:00:35 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78825 > And the Sergeant Majorette responds: > > << failings do not make Harry gay...An experienced guy couldn't deal > with it, let alone a kid in his first relationship.>>> > > She *doesn't* have a half ounce of security. She's a whole year older than Harry, give her a break. How much experience does she have? Harry's failings don't make Cho a bitch. > So, Cho mishandles a relationship. Does that make her a lesbian? In your world, it seems to. Or is that just MEN who make mistakes in a relationship? You said that Harry's attitude toward Cho spells "g-a-y" to you, but now you're apologizing for Cho because she's only 16. Pick a side and I'll debate it. > << the school.>>> > > Her friend was trying to protect her mother, a Ministry employee. > People side with their parents. People defend their friends. > You mean like Harry was defending Hermione against Cho's uncalled-for attacks? So, straight people defend their friends too? And how about some acknowledgement that her friend nearly ruined EVERYTHING? Her friend didn't want to be there to begin with, but Cho needed a wing-woman. Forget about the cause. Forget about the guy that killed Cedric. Cho needed someone to go to the club with so Harry wouldn't think she was pathetic. And that person she picked was so annoyed about going that she betrayed the group. But Harry is gay for not dealing with this head case in the right way. > << he's hopelessly inept at dealing with women, and therefore, most > likely gay?>>> > > He not only doesn't handle the drama perfectly, he doesn't handle the fact that other people have dramas at all. He's either gay or a total Richard Head. > So... gay people have no concept of other people's dramas? They are completely immune to it. Don't get it. Don't feel it. Aren't affected by it. Uh-huh. > If Cho's a bitch, then Harry's gay. Call it a draw. No. Make better points. Don't expect me to give it to you because your hand is weak. Darrin -- I love the 80s moment: The song 'It's the End of the World' is mainly an excuse for drunk frat guys to shout 'Leonard Bernstein.'" From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 13:11:05 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:11:05 -0000 Subject: My Post Again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78826 O.K. Let me start by saying that there is no real proof to support the Harry is gay train of thought, but there is quite a bit to support that he is straight. That is not why I am writting this, my original reply was to the fact that some one had posted their fantasy about Orlando Bloom as Draco and Harry Potter "seeing the light" and realizing that they were in love with each other. I had said that fantasies with actors should be either posted in the movie section, or as a slash? The term used for stories based on the characters of HP. I didn't realize that once again I would start a bar room fight. It seems strange to me that we have come to be afraid to voice our opinions if it may offend some one of a minority group, and that is wrong. My opinion that Harry is straight is based on written proof but is flamed while some ones homosexual fantasy, that has no reason to be in a book discussion forum, is alright? Please explain this to me, I thought we were discussing the books and our theories of what may happen and who is or is not a DE supporter. Where did the gay thread come from? Is there any proof? I agree with the person that stated that the more off your theory is the higher the wall of proof needs to be. I am also sorry for the way I write my opinion sometimes, adult ADD does break and muddle ones chain of thought, so I tend to jump around in subjects quite abit. If you can follow it and get the gist of what I am writting, more power to you. Severus "Adult ADD poster child" Snape From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 13:20:23 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:20:23 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78827 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" wrote: > > > And the Sergeant Majorette responds: > > > > << > failings do not make Harry gay...An experienced guy couldn't deal > > with it, let alone a kid in his first relationship.>>> > > > > She *doesn't* have a half ounce of security. She's a whole year > older than Harry, give her a break. How much experience does she > have? Harry's failings don't make Cho a bitch. > > > > So, Cho mishandles a relationship. Does that make her a lesbian? In > your world, it seems to. Or is that just MEN who make mistakes in a > relationship? > > You said that Harry's attitude toward Cho spells "g-a-y" to you, but > now you're apologizing for Cho because she's only 16. > > Pick a side and I'll debate it. > > > << whose actions drove away Dumbledore and consolidated Umbridge's power > over > > the school.>>> > > > > Her friend was trying to protect her mother, a Ministry employee. > > People side with their parents. People defend their friends. > > > > You mean like Harry was defending Hermione against Cho's uncalled- for > attacks? So, straight people defend their friends too? > > And how about some acknowledgement that her friend nearly ruined > EVERYTHING? Her friend didn't want to be there to begin with, but Cho > needed a wing-woman. Forget about the cause. Forget about the guy > that killed Cedric. Cho needed someone to go to the club with so > Harry wouldn't think she was pathetic. And that person she picked was > so annoyed about going that she betrayed the group. > > But Harry is gay for not dealing with this head case in the right way. > > > > << > he's hopelessly inept at dealing with women, and therefore, most > > likely gay?>>> > > > > He not only doesn't handle the drama perfectly, he doesn't handle > the fact that other people have dramas at all. He's either gay or a > total Richard Head. > > > > So... gay people have no concept of other people's dramas? They are > completely immune to it. Don't get it. Don't feel it. Aren't affected > by it. > > Uh-huh. > > > > If Cho's a bitch, then Harry's gay. Call it a draw. > > No. Make better points. Don't expect me to give it to you because > your hand is weak. > > Darrin > -- I love the 80s moment: The song 'It's the End of the World' is > mainly an excuse for drunk frat guys to shout 'Leonard Bernstein.'" Hmmm, I think Darrin is correct, and have never quite believed the whole gay thing anyway. The majority of boys mature emotionally slower than girls, hence the whole older guy thing. This is Harry's first crush, of course he is going to bumble a bit. I dont see anything out of the ordinary in Harry's interaction with Cho or anything that this points to Harry being gay! As far as Cho liking Harry, IMO she is looking for closure on Cedric's death. Unfortunately she does not take into account Harry's age and ends up frustrated. THEY ARE BOTH TEENAGERS! Fran From Meliss9900 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 13:25:25 2003 From: Meliss9900 at aol.com (Meliss9900 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 09:25:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clear case of attempted murder (was Snape the Iconocl... Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78828 In a message dated 8/24/2003 4:56:29 PM Central Standard Time, pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: > > Dumbledore disagrees with him - but as I said above, Snape could > easily have seen this as 'pure bloods stick together'. > > Pip!Squeak > But isn't Snape himself a pureblood? In POA it was stated by either Sirius or Remus that Snape arrived at Hogwarts knowing more curses and jinxes than the 7th years. That would seem to show that he wasn't a muggle-born. And probably not a half blood either since Syltherins seem to all be purebloods. Melissa [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 13:34:17 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:34:17 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78829 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" and "severus" are having themselves a nice little flame war. Folks, could we chill here? I think we have to concede that Severus is very uncomfortable with the idea of gay!Harry. Perhaps sometimes he overstates his case. Maybe he can stop and reread his posts before he sends them so as to maintain a more moderate tone. Severus, you are entitled to your opinions about HP, slash, gay rights activists and everything else. And so are the other people who post here. Darrin, you don't have to rise to the bait. This isn't a personal fight-or it shouldn't be. If you're offended by what a poster has to say, could you explain why in a calm, reasonable way? If you're familiar with the idea of active listening, I-messages are always a constructive way to communicate. You, too, are entitled to your opinions, but you have to realize that there will be disagreements. In my experience, we learn more from the people who challenge us than from the ones who agree with us. What we have in common is what we should protect and enjoy-our love for the HP books. We are not each other's enemies. Remember, there are people out there who are burning these books. Those are the ones who are the real threat. Laura, who would love to see Orlando Bloom play an adult Draco (yum), who has no idea what a Richard-head is and who will defend with her dying breath any REM song from the charge of being directed at drunken frat boys. Peace out! From greatraven at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 13:42:09 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:42:09 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78830 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > I don't recall ever hearing about how > Filch came to be at Hogwarts, or anything about his attachment to Mrs. > Norris. Why does she have a human name? Could she be someone who had > been irreversibly transfigured, or an animagus who got "stuck"? I'm > always suspicious when JKR omits background info on characters like > this. Any thoughts, guys? > > Entropy Maybe she was named after his old landlady or some such? ; - ) Joking aside: in OoP, we saw another Squib, Mrs Figg, not only having lots of cats, but able to communicate with one, Mr Tibbles (note the "Mr"?), just as Filch does with his cat. Is this, perhaps, a compensation for being unable to do magic in any other way? Or is it just coincidence? Coincidence is rare in JKR's books, though. Sue B From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 26 13:50:33 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:50:33 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78831 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "marinafrants" wrote: > > But empathy is exactly what makes successful manipulation work. > Empathy, sensitivity and insight, all of which Remus has in spades. > He knows what makes the people around him tick, and he knows the > right thing to say, and he says it when he thinks it's necessary -- > except when he's too afraid to speak up. I don't think he > manipulates people maliciously or gratuitously, but he does do it. > Yes, I was taking the stance that all manipulation is *bad*, but I suppose you could call what Remus does "empathic manipulation" along the lines of what a therapist or minister might do--offering alternative explanations in hopes someone will see a different perspective. Of course, we all know how well it works when we try to illicit change in others :) ! Even if Remus subconciously hopes to have an effect on his audience, it's still a crap shoot whether anyone will heed his counsel. Molly and Harry trust him and therefore responded to his words. Snape, on the other hand, would see any attempts at empathy from Reums as patronization at best, and evil manipulation at worst. Jen From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 26 13:59:14 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:59:14 -0000 Subject: Dementors and Squibs, esp. Figgy (was:Harry's Wand - not a coincidence?) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78832 > > Susan > >I'm sorry, but I don't think she lied. If she did not see them, how > >did she know that there were dementors there? She didn't run up to > >the boys asking what happened. She told them what happened. I > >think she stumbled because she 1) felt that she failed DD 2) she is > >only a squib in front of a wizard court. > > Just my opinion, > > > > I think, as Erin said, Squibs can *feel* dementors. Since it seems > evident Arabella Figg was raised by her wizard parents in the WW, she > would know all about Azkaban and dementors. So when she felt them, > she recognized them for what they were. Dumbledore probably warned > her specifically about dementors, in case the left MOM control and > rejoined Voldemort. It would be logical for Voldemort to send them > after Harry: muggles can't see them, they drain a wizard of his > powers and Voldemort had no way of knowing Harry could produce a > corporeal Patronus at that time, once they've *kissed* you, there's > no coming back. Susan: The court asked if Squibs could see dementors. Mrs. Figg said they could. I think that Fudge is idiot enough to check on whether she was lying or not...he wants to get Harry that badly. > "This is *exactly* what Dumbledore was afraid of!" (empahasis JKR, > OoP pg21 US hardcover) Susan: This is the reason he had regular wizards watching Harry covertly. > > This could either mean he was afraid of dementors, like I already > suggested, or the more devious idea, of someone forcing Harry to do > magic outside of school and giving Fudge the ammo to try and get him > expelled. Although Dumbledore manages to save the day on that one: > Fudge has no authority to expel students. But a conviction of > illegal underage magic would have followed him all his life, making > it that much harder for anyone to take him seriously. > > Back to Figgy: her evidence was less than stellar. Besides saying > they run instead of glide, she said Susan: Humans (WW or MW) make mistakes when they are under pressure. > "Oh." said Mrs. Figg, the pink flush creeping up her neck now. "They > were big. Big and wearing cloaks." (pg144) Susan: Which they are.... > No one would describe a dementor this way. No mention of thin, or, > more notably, hoods. The first thing everyone says when describing > demetors is 'hooded'. You cannot see their faces. You cannot see > that they cannot see. You cannot see how they administer the 'kiss'. Susan: Who says? How do you know how anyone would describe them? There is not enough canon to make that assumption. > This is one of those cases where the unknown is actually less > frightening than the reality, but even the unknown element is > sufficently frightning to make an impact. The flush seems to confirm > that she is lying. Most people who don't normally lie, do so. Plus, > she is lying *in court*, *under oath*. Not many people could do > that. The other facts she *does* get right are ones that were very > easily obtained from Dumbledore. Susan: Being someone who works in law enforcement and is in court frequently disagrees wholeheartedly with this. I have seen the best of the best lie under oath. I have seen some academy award winning performances out there. People who have been put in a stressful situation act differently. That is why the good guys have the "Burden of Proof". > So I think she was lying, but it was a nessecary lie. When the > government is corrupt, you have to work outside of it. > > ~Margaret Susan: Final thought, if what you are saying is true....if DD had her lie about the situation....why not find someone who can do a better job....as Mrs. Figg said, "...there's going to be hell to pay anyway, we might as well be hanged for a dragon as an egg." From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 26 14:10:21 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:10:21 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Post Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308261610.21863.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78833 Severus: << O.K. Let me start by saying that there is no real proof to support the Harry is gay train of thought, but there is quite a bit to support that he is straight.>> You take that as an axiom, that leads you to believe the next quote: <> Here is the point. The written proof is the same for all parts. They see their experience. Take the 'Bill was cool' line. A friend of mine had only this bit, that he though a couple of boys were cool. He was the first surprised to discover he was bi at 22. Tell him Harry is not a bisexual and he'll look puzzled because he identifies with him at sexual development. Are you calling his experiences a sexual fantasy? I'll inform him he doesn't exist and his experiences have no reason to count in an adult book discussion forum. He's got the same canon as you, sorry. <> Then we should ban every SHIP post, not the gay ones. <> The gay thread started the day discussions started, and it is as old as the human being :) In fact I think we were discussing the Harry/Bill subtext, or that is where I catched the thread. silmariel From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Tue Aug 26 14:11:50 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:11:50 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Norris In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78834 Entropy wrote: > > I don't recall ever hearing about how Filch came to be at Hogwarts, or anything about his attachment to Mrs. Norris. Why does she have a human name? Could she be someone who had been irreversibly transfigured, or an animagus who got "stuck"? I'm always suspicious when JKR omits background info on characters like this. Any thoughts, guys?> > Yes, there are lots of thoughts out there already. Try the FAQ at http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/animals.html#R9 and have a look at Hypothetic Alley for a bit more outre speculation: http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/faq/hypotheticalley.html#norris I've just marked the sections relating directly to Mrs Norris, but the whole of both sites are well worth a look and are always useful for consulting the received wisdom of the list. Kirstini From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 14:20:30 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:20:30 -0000 Subject: My Post Again In-Reply-To: <200308261610.21863.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78835 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > Severus: > > << O.K. Let me start by saying that there is no real proof to > support the Harry is gay train of thought, but there is quite a > bit to support that he is straight.>> > > You take that as an axiom, that leads you to believe the next quote: > > < flamed while some ones homosexual fantasy, that has no reason to be > in a book discussion forum, is alright?>> > > Here is the point. The written proof is the same for all parts. They > see their experience. Take the 'Bill was cool' line. A friend of > mine had only this bit, that he though a couple of boys were cool. > He was the first surprised to discover he was bi at 22. Tell him > Harry is not a bisexual and he'll look puzzled because he > identifies with him at sexual development. I am a woman who thought certain girls were cool at 15, think and tell women they are pretty or have cute figures etc now, and am no way in hell gay. Harry thinking Bill is cool is no way gay canon fodder. People whether gay or straight admire certain things about other people. Fran > In fact I think we were discussing the Harry/Bill subtext, or that > is where I catched the thread. > > silmariel From huntleyl at mssm.org Tue Aug 26 14:25:34 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:25:34 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Clear case of attempted murder (was Snape the Iconocl... References: Message-ID: <00af01c36bdd$e9c25f40$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 78836 Melissa: >But isn't Snape himself a pureblood? In POA it was stated by either Sirius >or Remus that Snape arrived at Hogwarts knowing more curses and jinxes than the >7th years. That would seem to show that he wasn't a muggle-born. And probably >not a half blood either since Syltherins seem to all be purebloods. Actually, we do know of one half-blood that was *definitely* in Slytherin. *grins* Yes, you all know who I'm talking about. Lord...Thingy...himself! Actually, I've always found this fact, if not Flint-y, then at least contradictory with loads of other canon. For instance: CoS, US Edition, pg. 150, "Slytherin wished to be more *selective* about the students admitted to Hogwarts. He believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magic families." OotP, US Edition, pg. 205, "Said Slytherin, "We'll teach just those/ Whose ancestry is purest." As far as I can tell, the Sorting Hat is *supposed* to sort the students according to which Founder would have wanted them in his/her House, based on the qualities that each student possesses. So, what's it doing sorting a student into Slytherin that Salazar wouldn't have even wanted admitted to the school? The only thing I can think of is that the fact that Riddle was the *Heir* of Slytherin overrode the fact that he was not from a "all-magic family." BTW, I do agree that Snape is most likely a pureblood, however. Laura (who really *should* be packing for college.) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Tue Aug 26 14:38:10 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 14:38:10 -0000 Subject: Luna's intuition (was Heliopaths) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78837 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bohcoo" wrote: > > I think Fudge DOES have an army of heliopaths, just as Luna > describes -- AND, they were in that room that melted Harry's knife. > How does Luna know about them? She might be our missing SEER; we have > all tried to pin that gift on Ron (and, he may have some talent in > that direction, we shall see) but Luna has much much more to show us. Bohcoo I'm not sure about the heliopaths, but Luna comes across as the first truly intuitive, rather than analytical, character. No make that the second one--Ollivander is the first who works not from his mind, but his intuition. In a past post I conncted them by their "misty, silvery eyes," the only two characters that I remember having that particular color. Somehow they and their abilities are related. In contrast to Trelawney, who may or may not really be intuitive, Luna operates from an internal compass, reading moods, situations and people more so than books. That's not to say she isn't smart! No, she's in Ravenclaw and I think that's our first evidence that JKR is promoting intuition as equal to analytical abilities in the end. In contrast to Trelawney, who is lampooned, Luna is truly able to rise above the thoughts and opinions of others and be guided by internal counsel. Prior to Luna and the Prophecy, intuitive/psychic abilities aren't taken seriously by any of the main characters, and yet Luna is the only one able to help Harry with Sirius's death, even though others *know* him better. Her character is the psychic equivalent of the female archetype that Harry needs to join with his already prominent male "hero" archetype, to reach his potential. Perhaps Luna can help Ron liberate his inner seer as well? Luna is a great character and adds much needed balance to the action- oriented trio. Jen From altered.earth at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 26 14:56:38 2003 From: altered.earth at ntlworld.com (digger) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:56:38 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Dementors and Squibs, esp. Figgy (was:Harry's Wand - not a coincidence?) References: Message-ID: <3F4B7526.50401@ntlworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78838 princesspeaette wrote: > Erin: > >But Mrs Figg lied, didn't she? > > I think, as Erin said, Squibs can *feel* dementors. Since it seems > evident Arabella Figg was raised by her wizard parents in the WW, she > would know all about Azkaban and dementors. > > So I think she was lying, but it was a nessecary lie. When the > government is corrupt, you have to work outside of it. > > ~Margaret IMHO: Mrs Figg lied to save Harry. Harry owes Figgy BIG TIME for getting him off. I wished he'd sent her some choccy or cake from Honeydukes as a thank you present, but he has not been brought up to do that. (That is Petunia's fault, not his.) I hope he pays her a visit this summer holiday and says a big thank-you then. digger From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 15:10:17 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:10:17 -0000 Subject: My Post Again In-Reply-To: <200308261610.21863.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78839 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > Severus: > > << O.K. Let me start by saying that there is no real proof to > support the Harry is gay train of thought, but there is quite a > bit to support that he is straight.>> > > You take that as an axiom, that leads you to believe the next quote: > > < flamed while some ones homosexual fantasy, that has no reason to be > in a book discussion forum, is alright?>> > > Here is the point. The written proof is the same for all parts. They > see their experience. Take the 'Bill was cool' line. A friend of > mine had only this bit, that he though a couple of boys were cool. > He was the first surprised to discover he was bi at 22. Tell him > Harry is not a bisexual and he'll look puzzled because he > identifies with him at sexual development. > > Are you calling his experiences a sexual fantasy? I'll inform him he > doesn't exist and his experiences have no reason to count in an > adult book discussion forum. > > He's got the same canon as you, sorry. > > < the books and our theories of what may happen and who is or is not a > DE supporter. >> > > Then we should ban every SHIP post, not the gay ones. > > <> > > The gay thread started the day discussions started, and it is as old > as the human being :) > > In fact I think we were discussing the Harry/Bill subtext, or that > is where I catched the thread. > > silmariel Snape here: I have to disagree, what I stated has happened in the book, what your friend is doing is speculation, Harry has not looked at another male and felt the warm fuzzies as he did with Cho. I have alot of gay friends, and enjoy there company, and find some of them pretty damn cool, but let us not confuse cool with sexual attraction. Any one with an imagination can identify with Harry at some point in the books, but that recognition does not change what actually happened. I am not calling your friends experience a fantasy, but did Harry discover he was "bi" after this observation? No, he just thought Bill was cool, not hot, or sexy, just cool. Also your friend did not create a fantasy about two male characters falling in love and state that it would be great. That is fantasy and has no proof. Most people know at a very early age that they are or are not homosexual, my sister knew at nine, her life partner claims even younger, I knew I was straight in the first grade and my first crush's name was Heidi. Some one discovering that they are "bi" at 22 seems abit of a stretch, he must have lived a very sheltered life or was in denial of his feelings. But that is just my opinion, I am not an expert on homosexual developement, but have many friends and relatives that are "gay" and they speak openly about it. Until it states in the next books that Harry has a mad crush on another male, I will maintain that Harry is straight by his actions in the Potterverse. Severus From erinellii at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 15:15:42 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:15:42 -0000 Subject: Tonks. There aren't accidents. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78840 "Mev532" wrote: > I...have questions about Tonks. She seemed to stick out for me as a > distinct character who I expected to play a larger role. Then she > doesn't. I think something's up. Little details aren't dropped for no reason (quick Examples: knocking Quirrel (the real culprit) over in SS when trying to stop Snape from casting a spell on Harry's broomstick, mentioning the bugs in GOF that end up being Rita Skeeter) so why mention the clumsy nature and shape shifting? Is there any instance of an unsusual disturbance that might indicate clumsy tonks is tailing harry? What role do you think she will play in future books? > Any speculations? Yes, I have a speculation. Shortly before I read this post, I was browsing through the Severus Snape section of Fantastic Posts, and I came across this question and quote: Q. Will Snape fall in love in the series? A. As originally quoted by Bonnie (3513), JKR was asked this question in a radio interview and gave a tantalizingly evasive answer: Interviewer: One of our -- one of our Internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. Rowling (laughing): Yeah ... who on earth would want Snape in love with them? That is a very horrible idea....whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that I'm -- I'm slightly stunned that you've said that, and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read Book Seven. And that's all I'm going to say. (end quote) I see Snape falling in love with Tonks, and Tonks absolutely hating it, having no interest in Snape at all, at least at first. Or am I just crazy? What do you guys think? Erin From urghiggi at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 15:38:57 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:38:57 -0000 Subject: Luna's intuition (was Heliopaths) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78841 >Jen wrote: I think that [Luna's inclusion in Ravenclaw] is our first evidence that JKR is > promoting intuition as equal to analytical abilities in the end. In > contrast to Trelawney, who is lampooned, Luna is truly able to rise > above the thoughts and opinions of others and be guided by internal > counsel. [snip] Luna is a great character and adds much needed balance to the action-oriented trio. I'm with you Jen. I love Luna, batty as she seems to be. Those googly eyes of hers are a sign that she can see things her peers can't, and not just thestrals. (Aside to Ginger the FILKer -- I LOVE that "6 teen thestraled virgins" line from the "whiter shade of pale/fighter through the veil" FILK -- been laughing about for several days. Loved the whole FILK, in fact.....) I think the crumple-horned snorkack is going to turn out to be real; I think ditto on the heliopaths (though I don't buy the theory that Fudge's got them locked up at the MoM). But I disagree with the previously posted idea that the reality of these creatures would make Luna's ability to discern life "beyond the veil" any less impressive. Death and how to cope with its painful aftermath are very big themes in the world JKR has constructed. She herself has said in an interview that the death of her mother at a fairly young age, from MS, informed the writing of PS/SS -- particularly the Mirror of Erised scene. ("Harry's Hot," Newsweek magazine, July 17 2000.) She continues to say (same interview) ".... death and bereavement and what death means, I would say, is one of the central themes in all seven books." If Luna's seemingly crazy ideas about unlikely corporeal beings (eg, snorkacks & heliopaths) turn out to be correct, it seems to me that JKR would be trying to imply that her seemingly crazy ideas about the soul's persistence after death are also correct. I agree that the fact that Luna's in Ravenclaw is meant to be significant: a signal that she is not stupid, however vague and gauzy and outlandish her notions appear. Thus I predict that at least some of Luna's crazy predictions will turn out to be true. Major religions differ on this point, but if JKR really believes in the tenets of her protestant faith, she likely would endorse the idea that the soul continues to exist after death somehow as a unique personality, not just part of the great life force (a la Buddhism) or even only as traits/qualities that live on and are revealed in our descendants (a la Harry's Patronus). The "persistence of souls" notion, I think, is one of JKR's proposed coping tools for the anguish of death. Certainly she is proposing it as a useful coping tool for Harry, in that pivotal "veil" discussion he has late in OoP with Luna. The hard cold truth about himself, which Harry's been seeking for so long, gives him no comfort even after he gets it. Only Luna's wacky idea gives him comfort in the face of his past losses and his seemingly bleak future. (Late in the book he also takes a bit of comfort in the solidarity of his friends/guides, which is another fine coping tool for grief, widely endorsed by the religious and nonreligious alike.) Many themes of the Potterverse seem deliberately constructed to convince us that there's more to existence than meets the eye. This again gets into the previously discussed contrast between the symbolist worldview (transcendent existence is a real thing) vs the materialist worldview (we're all based on chemical reactions, and what we see and live in our short timespans is, really, all there is to existence). Luna to me seems to be created as a pointer toward the viability of the symbolist worldview. I'll be so interested to see where JKR goes with her. (And I'm not ready to rule out the possibility of an H/L SHIP, despite her apparent initial interest in the activities of Ron... :-) Urghiggi, chgo From bard7696 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 15:40:47 2003 From: bard7696 at aol.com (darrin_burnett) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:40:47 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78842 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "darrin_burnett" and "severus" > are having themselves a nice little flame war. Folks, could we chill > here? Looks to me like Severus and I are on the same side of this issue. Carry on, Severus. Love your work, man. > Darrin, you don't have to rise to the bait. This isn't a personal > fight-or it shouldn't be. If you're offended by what a poster has to say, could you explain why in a calm, reasonable way? I am offended by personal opinions being thrown about as canon. That offends me on an intellectual level and I am responding to that. Simply put, there is more CANON proof that Harry is straight and there is speculation, and in this case, ludicrous and borderline offensive sweeping general statments. To whit: "Teen boy incapable of reading mixed-up girl's feelings - teen boy must be gay?" I find discussions about posters' behavior and writing completely boring and usually the sign of a dying thread. I for one would prefer to let the thread die or get back on task. Darrin -- Me saying I loved Severus' work still means I'm straight, right? You never can tell in Bizarro-world. From tamliv at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 26 13:01:41 2003 From: tamliv at worldnet.att.net (Tamee Livingston) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 05:01:41 -0800 Subject: 4 Voldemort Phases (was re: Pureblood DE and Knights of Walpurgis) References: <1061877008.5903.24971.m18@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <085101c36bd2$4ece8f50$43c50c0c@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 78843 [Snipping all my own original comments] Now Richard [who I've also ruthlessly snipped]: >>>I don't think LV is offering anarchy at all. He offers even the powerful a certain order and discipline that is hard to understand WANTING to endure, let alone work to establish, but there is something very sinister that he offers ... ABSOLUTE power, the power of life and death over the "undesirables" of the WW, without fear of consequences, and without the limitations of mere mortality, and all in a pure-blood WW. <<< I think you've got a good point here. Voldemort was offering these particular people a chance to indulge in their crueler natures, something up until that point they would have had to keep hidden. Power over others can be quite intoxicating, and he was offering them a path denied them. Of course, I'm not sure just how willing Voldemort would have been to allow them to achieve the immortality he sought, but illusion can be everything. >>>I think it quite likely LV DID usurp an existing organization, but we were told in CoS, by no less an authority than the young Tom Riddle/LV himself, that he was already seeking followers while in school. If LV did usurp a pure-blood organization, he might well have done so by encouraging his followers to join that organization and to serve as agitators on his behalf. But, I can't see LV willingly joining an organization controlled by a single powerful wizard or similar small clique of wizards. <<< That is a good point, although I think it possible that a younger Voldemort just establishing himself would be willing to play the politics of such a group to maneuver into power, or conversely, if their last strong leader had been Grindelwald, the group may have been drifting aimlessly until Voldemort showed up to give them purpose and thus gone straight to the top. >>>This would also account for some DEs being less loyal than others. If they THOUGHT they were joining the "classical" Knights ("Dear old Dad was a member, you know ..."), only to find that they now must be loyal to LV as a consequence of joining (or die, a la Sirius' brother), they might well be less than loyal to LV or the usurped organization, once LV seemed to have fallen.<<< I think this is most likely as well. I think my problem has been that right now Voldemort doesn't seem to have any grand strategy; he just wants to regain his immortality and figure out how to kill Harry, and his followers with the exception of the insane Bellatrix and the other Azkaban escapees don't seem that enthusiastic in his service. So, Voldemort as he currently is seems weak to me, and I guess I've been projecting backwards. However as I see it now, I believe Voldemort has gone through 4 different phases in his development. 1. Tom Riddle. Here he's just apprentice Dark Lord (whether self taught or under the instruction of Grindelwald or another seriously evil wizard). He's discovered his ancestry, killed his muggle family, and opened the chamber of secrets. We know then that he had charm and charisma and was recruiting followers. This instance of Voldemort I could see having the patience to study under and learn to manipulate more powerful dark wizards until he could dispose of them. 2. Lord Voldemort in his first and most powerful incarnation. Here is where he nearly takes over the wizarding world. Here he has plans and his followers become intoxicated on their freedom to kill, torture and control. He uses their lust for power over others and a promise of complete domination over wizards, muggles, and even life itself. This is the Voldemort that Bellatrix learned to blindly worship. The world was in their grasp. Until that fateful Halloween. 3. Blam. Now we have Vapormort. In this form, all he cares about is survival. He's still got enough power to seduce Quirrel to his side, and he lasts long enough for Wormtail to get him into ugly baby form. However, Harry Potter is still the one who both sent him to that state and has kept him in it by thwarting his attempts on the Philosopher's Stone. 4. Voldemort reborn. Now we come to the current Voldemort, the one who spent13 (is that number right?) years barely surviving, brooding on Harry Potter, who once again in the Graveyard thwarted him and made him look weak. And he is weak right now, and Harry has become his obsession. He knows that unless he can kill Harry, he will never be the power he once was. He'll never strike the terror he once did. So now his obsession is not so much to control the world, but to destroy his enemy, and regain his invulnerability. I think that's why Voldemort isn't so frightening now. He's already been vanquished once and so now his focus has shifted. Unfortunately, though I'm starting to get an idea about him, Voldemort is still a one dimensional tedious villain to me now. Bring back diary!Tom; at least he had some charisma. Tamee From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Tue Aug 26 13:49:16 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:49:16 -0000 Subject: Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: Religion) In-Reply-To: <3F4ABEE8.2030801@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78844 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" > > wrote: > > > Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. > > > Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too > > > impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. Well I figure they perhaps even have a different bible or interpretations. Sure Seamus can turn water into rum but he can't raise the dead. There are still rules. Things no wizard can do. And alchemy was studied by Christians for a long time. Different Christian groups have different attitudes to magic and witchcraft. But those who are most fundemntally against magic (and HP) actually believe it exsists where most modern christians who find stories like HP fun don't. So who is to say what is real and what is not - especially in a religion with as many factions as Christianity. Perhaps Mary Magdalene was a witch and that is why her gospel was suppressed. Perhaps their beliefs revolve around the Gospel according to Mary. I always thought it was because she was a woman and that would entirely change the way Christians viewed women and their role in the Church. But it could be something else. Perhaps they believe Jesus was a wizard. Jazmyn: > It might be the observance of > 'popular' holidays parallels the muggle schools and in fact, may be more > an influence from wizards who have come from muggle backgrounds. Or the > overall influence of being based in the UK. If it were wizards in > China, I am sure they would celebrate popular Chinese national holidays. > I would bet that American Wizards celebrate Thanksgiving. > > All I see is the observance of the popular 'national holidays' > celebrated in that country (the UK), not evidence that all wizards are > Christians or any other one religion. I am sure there would be a close > percentage of the same religions or lack of religion in the WW as in the > muggle world. > > > Jazmyn If Wizards cannot manage to even imitate the proper dress of muggles and most don't care to bother, why would they bother with Christmas or Easter. And if that was if, why are they so accurate and comfortable with the traditions. When we see wizards dealing with Muggle things they botch them more often than not. These are people who cannot even spell 'electricity' properly. (I realize I am ignoring the train and bus. But I've never been able to make those more modern inventions fit in to the WW if even carpets are considered muggle objects.) Wizards and Witches don't have much of an interest as a society in Muggle traditions. Molly couldn't care less about Muggles. Arthur is looked upon as a odd for being so interested. Yet Molly celebrates Easter and Christmas will all the same traditions. There are trees and lights and gifts and candy eggs and such. It seems to me that Wizards are mostly Christian at least by heritage and tradition even if they secular in their practice. There is of course no reason there could not be those that hold to the old and ancient ways. But they must be a minority of Wizarding culture. It could be that like our society, Christian wizards just don't go to church and such. Look at Muggle church attendance. It is entirely possible that Wizards are not Anglican or Calvinist but part of some seperate denomination like the Wizarding Church of England and Scotland... The physical wizard Churches would be concealed from muggles. But it is incongruous with the whole nature of Wizard culture to assume they are adopting muggle traditions. Men like Malfoy would never send their children to a school that did something like that. It is bad enough they let Muggleborns in. He wouldn't want Draco participating in Muggle traditions. At no other time do we see anyone adopting muggle traditions. It seems to be just the opposite. Hermione is adopting Wizarding traditions. She is a witch. The only thing she seems to bring with her are modern muggle ethics. (But I really find it hard to believe that she is the only person in the WW who thinks slavery is wrong. And if she is, there has to be a reason why no one else agrees. The WW is not morally bankrupt.) Golly From entropymail at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 16:40:29 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:40:29 -0000 Subject: My Post Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78845 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > O.K. Let me start by saying that there is no real proof to support > the Harry is gay train of thought, but there is quite a bit to > support that he is straight. Where did the gay thread come from? Is there any > proof? I agree with the person that stated that the more off your > theory is the higher the wall of proof needs to be. Severus, I have to agree on several points: 1)I've been following this thread, with some bemusement that it even exists. Being a straight young woman, I have to admit that the idea that Harry is gay never really occurred to me. Frankly, I don't care one way or the other, but more to the point, I just don't see any real proof of it. To think that Harry is gay just because he could identify Bill as "cool" (or myriad other "clues") seems absurd to me. I've had lots of female friends in my life, many of whom I realized were absolutely beautiful, brilliant, and even "cool" (hate that word!). And yet, last I checked, I'm still straight. 2)I also think it's an irrelevant point. Although some kids may know from the outset that they are gay, I don't believe that most kids (and let's not forget that they are kids)in this age group don't have the slightest inkling, and would much rather spend their energies playing ball (or Quidditch) and video games. Can we all say "latency period"? 3)Finally, it's a children's book! Granted, JKR does include lots of obscure references that only adults and the most precocious of ten year olds would pick up on, but it seems strange and oddly out of place that JKR would even include anything more than the sketchiest of information about a character's sexuality in this type of book. With all of that said, if anyone would like to imagine that Harry (or Malfoy or Ron or Mrs. Norris, for that matter) is gay, feel free. While spending lots of time and energy defending the theory that Harry is gay (or straight) seems like an enormous waste of time, I'm certainly all for a little creative imagining during the reading and re-reading process. After all, my own version Snape is just a bit darker and sexier than some other posters might imagine. But that's just me... Entropy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Tue Aug 26 16:59:23 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:59:23 +0100 Subject: When Harry met Draco, or Pride and Prejudice (non-SHIP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78846 He, He! something to get my teeth into and stretch some underused mental muscles. Goody! Mind you, the opposite (flat statement, followed by flat contradiction, followed by personal abuse) also has its charms. The posts by Kirstini (78724) and Laura (78747) both raise ideas that catch my eye. First Kirstini (heavily snipped) > It's often struck me as remarkable that Harry as a child doesn't > react more strongly against Muggles when he discovers himself to be > a different kind of human being. Growing up, as one listie so wisely > pointed out recently (2), Harry has been the victim of blood- > prejudice. He is then immediately plunged into a world which is just > as casually racist, yet tipped in his favour. Even those characters > we now know as very firmly "good" express strong anti-Muggle > sentiments. > When tested by Draco > Malfoy, the first non-Muggle child of his own age he meets, Harry > suddenly, shockingly, reveals himself to be a thoroughly decent > human being. Perhaps *too* decent, as many list members have often > speculated. I sort of agree, but with different emphases. Yes, he's been the subject of prejudice in both worlds to a greater or lesser extent, but the reason the WW is tipped in his favour is not ethical, it's personal. It's *who* he is, not *what* he is. Revealingly, Draco, in that first meeting, does not know who he is; Draco reduces Harry to hoi polloi status after Harry has come to believe himself as special. (At that time, remember, Harry does not know about the pureblood/mud- blood divide, or his place in the spectrum of the caste system.) So the eternal teenage male ritual of "mines bigger than yours" proceeds apace. What are the touchstones, the status symbols, the trump cards of school boy teenage one-upmanship in the WW? He doesn't know and so can't respond effectively. He could top Draco with his (almost mythical) identity, but the conversation ends too abruptly. (You can almost imagine his frustration: "*I* am Harry Potter." Collapse of stout party. "And the winnah is...!" > > > Harry, therefore, is unconsciously reforming his experience into > motivation, that when Draco appears again, a few pages later, Harry > can make an overt statement of his own allegiance: " `I can tell who > the wrong sort are for myself, thanks.'" (p81), as a direct rebuff > to Draco and whatever he stands for. Harry's initial impulse still > underlies the five years of rivalry the reader has witnessed ? see > PoA, p181: > > *** > `?I reckon it's time you ordered a new broom, Harry. There's an > order form on the back of *Which Broomstick*?you could get a Nimbus > Two Thousand and One, like Malfoy's got.' > `I'm not buying anything Malfoy thinks is good,' said Harry flatly. > *** > Essentially, then, Harry's political awareness to prejudice > originated as a defensive manoeuvre, and perpetuates as a gut > reaction. He exhibits similar behaviour in OoP, where his reaction > against Umbridge originates in the fact that she is against *him* > (that and the fact that she's physically unattractive, I suspect? > boys! ) ? no evidence of progression made from his first ever > Potions lesson, where Harry's dislike of Snape grows as a defensive > reaction to Snape's unfair treatment of him ? a small step from this > to accusing him of being an agent of Voldemort, and then again > to "never being able to forgive Snape" when he requires a handy > scapegoat for Sirius' death . Ditto > Umbridge. "I can tell what the wrong sort are for myself, thanks." With an unspoken attachment "They're nasty little shits that don't recognise my status, unlike the Weasleys." The same goes for Snape, and Umbridge. What DD feared about the danger to Harrys' personality if brought up in the WW is coming to pass. IMO Harry feels flashes of resentment that his claim to fame does not result in universal admiration and approbation. "I saved the world from Voldemort. I'm famous. How can they rubbish me?" It is almost his raison d'etre. Harry is not presented as a thoughtful person, in the broadest meaning of the phrase. His reactions are instinctive and based on the intensely personal. He is too pre-occupied to see the wider world and get to grips with forming an ethical philosophy. He dislikes Draco, Snape, Umbridge et al because he assumes they react to him as the boy who survived Voldy rather than as an example of a despised fraction. And for the most part he is right. Oh, he's aware that there are wider social issues and he aligns himself with the 'right' side, but it seems to be dictated by opposing what his perceived detractors support, rather than reasoning from first principles. Hermione, now; she's a different story. (Extensive clipping again) > It's Hermione, obviously more politically aware, who > assists the narrative in building up a clear picture of Umbridge's > racist beliefs in the scene where she alerts the others to Umbridge > undermining Hagrid. > > Of the principal characters, Hermione > probably has the most in common with the majority of her readers ? > an affluent, middle-class, (Muggle-born) reasonably privileged child > (who likes reading). And yet, as Pip pointed out in her earlier > post, this is precisely the demographic which finds itself Other to > the WW's prejudice, just as Hermione does in CoS. It's Hermione who > introduces the reader to the emotional impact of the WW's particular > prejudice, thus involving the reader (by identification) in the > theme within their own personal level, and forcing them to confront > their own prejudice, as (at the very least) a defensive manoeuvre. > Hermione may be a perfect specimen of liberal white womanhood within > our own, Muggle sphere, but within the WW she is something set > apart. > I wonder if Hermione's > ethical/political stance is, unconsciously, equally self-defensive? > Hermione discovers herself in a world which is perhaps not so > inclined to accept her as one of its own. Naturally more confident > than Harry, she responds not with resentment, but by trying to > change the ethical basis that world is founded upon, encountering as > much casual prejudice (ie from Gred and Forge: `They're *happy*, > Hermione! They love serving humans' ? I'm currently GoF-less, so > have no idea if that quote is correct) as exists towards her and her > kind from even the most well-intentioned of wizards I remember a line from one of Lois Bujolds entertaining Vorkosigan books "She thinks an egalitarian can cope quite well with an aristocracy, so long as they are one of the aristocrats." Hermione belongs to the long and distinguished line of social reformers that, with few exceptions, have been nurtured by the middle class notions of right and wrong. I've no doubt but that her parents discussed social issues frequently and involved Hermione in them from an early age. Hermione has right and rectitude on her side. It's in the blood. She is for the underdog as a matter of principle. Unfortunately, it's rather difficult to crusade when the dog, far from being under, has powers that match or exceed her own and has a place in the society that is rather more secure than hers is. In the WW, unlike Muggledom, her position is not commensurate with her principles. She hasn't yet grasped that (with rare exceptions, Haiti in the 1790s, for one) successful social revolutions are instigated from above, not from below. Radicals further up the social order are the prime movers for the betterment of the oppressed, not other social outcasts. Until Hermione herself gains equality she'll have no chance of influencing the social order. Hermione is the obverse of Harry, everything is principle, the personal is secondary; society has precedence over the individual. She's the embodiment of Elizabeth Fry, without the money or influence to get anything done. How frustrating! Now Laura (again clipped) > > It sounds as if you're suggesting that behavior and beliefs, whether > good or bad, are the result of unconscious desires on the part of the > holder to justify and protect him/herself. (Sorry for the awkward > phrasing-it's the lawyer in me.) I think it's much more complex than > that (and I'm sure you do too-I'm probably simplifying your post). > > Intelligent people try to maintain some level of self-awareness (or > so they tell me) so that they are always seeking a balance between > meeting the needs of self-interest with satisfying higher > understandings of right and wrong. A strong and determined mind can > overrule simple self-interest and choose an abstract right. > > aside to Kneasy: Remus shakes hands with DD at the end of PoA when > he's preparing to leave the school, and with Harry in OoP when the > advance guard arrives at Privet Drive. And I seem to recall Arthur > offering to shake hands with Vernon at least once and being ignored. To a certain extent, yes. But if that abstract 'right' were to their marked or permanent detriment, then expect an explosion. Truth and rights are nebulous concepts that change with time and society. A right is not a right if it is an imposition on another. Then it is a privilege. So passes the Divine Right of kings, the right to practice suttee, and in the UK, the right to physically defend your home when intruders encroach. So also passes 'right' in the meaning of correct. Compare and contrast today with what was considered socially correct a century ago. Do you claim that it will not change again in the next century? Rather than self interest, which carries overtones of financial advancement, I'd prefer self identity - ones perception of ones recognition as an individual and as a member of a group within the social structure. A conflict between that and some higher truth or abstract right can become very messy, with the 'self' taking precedence every time. I don't believe that humanity is notably rational. It never has been (Heresy!). It's rationalising. The first reaction is to act instinctively and to think up acceptable reasons why, later. Instinct is a honed survival tool that has served individuals, and by extension society, well for millennia. No philosopher yet has managed to devise a rational society that wouldn't be sheer hell for at least a proportion of the population. The Law of Unintended Consequences rules in all social constructs. aside: Yes, I know there are some handshakes (damn my addiction to hyperbole), but when they do occur I contend that they are intended as public signals of acceptability, or, as in the instance of The Leaky Cauldron in PS, a plot device, signaling that Quirrell was not possessed at that time. Kneasy From manawydan at ntlworld.com Tue Aug 26 17:07:57 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:07:57 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's memory References: <1061840116.23796.93783.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001201c36bf4$994a9520$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 78847 ewdotson: >support. :) Has anyone else considered the possibility that this is >Snapes worse memory becase it IS his memory of the Prank, or at least >the begining of it? JKR makes a point of Lupin's shabbiness in the >scene, having Harry wonder if it's close to a full moon. We know I've also been speculating about this, but come to a different conclusion... We see Snape put 3 memories in his Pensieve. Why? Harry, at one point, is able to see some of Snape's memories. Perhaps Snape puts the 3 memories in the Pensieve because they are memories which he thinks it's _really_ important that Harry doesn't find out about. Perhaps, also, they are 3 memories which are the ones most bound up with his hatred of James and by extension of Harry (and therefore which would make it more difficult for Snape to teach Harry). Although the Shrieking Shack Prank (not a phrase I'd like to have to say 10 times quickly...) was one of Snape's bad memories, Harry knows all about it, from both points of view. Possibly, therefore, it wasn't as important for Snape to put it away. So what might the other two memories be? I wonder if the second memory is bound up with Snape's activities as a DE. What's the worst thing it could have been? Perhaps Snape takes his hatred of James sufficiently far to kill both his and Lily's parents. This would explain what happened to Harry's grandparents, why Harry has no other living relative than Petunia, and a lot about why Petunia hates the WW so much. Killing James's parents would also be a blow at Sirius, who they took in when he defected from the House of Black. Possibly the killings were the spur that led James and Lily to join the fight against Voldemort. And imagine what Harry would make of seeing all of that... The third memory? I wonder if it is something that has happened recently? The thing that Dumbledore sent Snape to do, perhaps? And possibly it's not all that Snape has reported. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From Kira1119 at Hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 17:19:54 2003 From: Kira1119 at Hotmail.com (Kira November) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 12:19:54 -0500 Subject: The Inner Snape (was Grey laundry) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78848 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2003 08:56:33 EDT From: MadameSSnape at aol.com Subject: Re: The inner Snape (was:Re: Grey laundry - depression) longish In a message dated 8/13/2003 12:48:56 PM Pacific Daylight Time, jwcpgh at yahoo.com writes: >So I think that the brevity of Snape's visits to Grimmauld Place has to do >with Snape rather than the Order. Perhaps he doesn't truly trust the protections on the house, & fears that Voldykins might be able to trace the place through his Dark Mark if he stays there too long? Just a random thought that popped into my (very tired after opening night) brain. Probably not worth even one Knut... Sherrie Perhaps the protections on Grimmauld Place would prevent the Dark Mark from activating, and Snape would be hard-pressed to explain why. Kira November _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 17:23:26 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:23:26 -0000 Subject: Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78849 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Yes, I was taking the stance that all manipulation is *bad*, but I > suppose you could call what Remus does "empathic manipulation" > along the lines of what a therapist or minister might do--offering > alternative explanations in hopes someone will see a different > perspective. While I agree that SOME manipulation is bad, I'm not prepared to say that ALL manipulation is bad ... and I hope your comment about the "manipulation" done by therapists is leading you to the same conclusion. I cannot see that a therapist in particular who manipulates a patient into some important realization or action is doing something necessarily bad. When you think about it, isn't good parenting to a large extent the practice of manipulation for the benefit of the child(ren) being manipulated? And would you call that bad? Dumbledore is arguably quite manipulative, especially in his use of light sarcasm to show people that what they are saying or doing is "off." The question for me, regarding manipulation, is the intent ... Somewhat along the lines of the old philosophical dictum that one should treat others not merely as means but also as beings. We cannot avoid using others (treating them as means) by virtue of the fact that we buy food from others, thereby using the vendor, the grower, etc., in a long chain. If you ask someone what time it is, you are using them as a means, not treating them as being. Being POLITE about it shifts you somewhat in the being direction, but you are still using that person. Now, let's say you think you recognize someone, but can't see them full-on well enough to tell. You can ask that person the time (provided you are prepared to either claim you aren't sure about your watches accuracy or such), and thus get them to turn enough that you may be able to tell if you know them ... without raising suspicions that you didn't recognize them in the first place. This is a rather benign use of a person to me, yet is manipulative in a minor key. My conclusion? Intent plays a critical role in the ethical content of any act of manipulation, but some manipulation is neither good nor bad but benign. > Of course, we all know how well it works when we try to illicit > change in others :) ! Even if Remus subconciously hopes to have an > effect on his audience, it's still a crap shoot whether anyone will > heed his counsel. Molly and Harry trust him and therefore responded > to his words. Snape, on the other hand, would see any attempts at > empathy from Reums as patronization at best, and evil manipulation > at worst. Which brings us to the second point. Perception ... one's subjective experience of manipulation, or of the person one believes to be attempting manipulation ... is distinct from intent. One reason I suspect that manipulation has such a bad reputation is that it is often done poorly. Another is the misunderstanding that manipulation must always be bad. Thus, when one feels that an 'enemy' is trying to manipulate you, even if for benign purposes, it is likely to seem a wrong commited by that person. Through in manipulations that a putative enemy may attempt in order to show one that he/she is NOT really an enemy, or manipulations by REAL enemies intent upon doing harm, and manipulation gets a very bad reputation. From free_lunch_club at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 17:22:05 2003 From: free_lunch_club at hotmail.com (thetruthisoutthere_13) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:22:05 -0000 Subject: Luna's intuition (was Heliopaths) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78850 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: (snipped) > Major religions differ on this point, but if JKR really believes in the tenets of > her protestant faith, she likely would endorse the idea that the soul continues > to exist after death somehow as a unique personality, not just part of the great > life force (a la Buddhism) or even only as traits/qualities that live on and are > revealed in our descendants (a la Harry's Patronus). > Urghiggi, chgo Hmm, random thought, but I wonder if you could pull the echoes of Harry's parents that he saw in book four into this thought. Harry seeing his parents emerge from Voldemort's wand could have a few main purposes: 1) (the obvious) they're truly dead and won't be seen again by Harry in any corporal or ghost form, but 2) their spirits live on somewhere. Know how all of the echoes talked to Harry, made requests, etc? Perhaps the smoky forms were tied to the soul of the person, or the person's greater awareness, like they're an earthly echo of the person's soul that exists beyond the physical plane. Okay, I need to start getting more sleep. -kg From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 17:41:25 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:41:25 -0000 Subject: JKR interview -Susan Bones(was: Re: generational parallels / Heir of Hufflepuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78851 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leu02ram" wrote: > Phlux wrote: > > > Now, I know that the films and the books are different, but it is > > widely known that JK does work with the screenwriter for each new > > film. And although she has said that she doesn't give info to him > > readily, she has admitted that he, perhaps, knows more about the > > future of the series and characters than anyone else. > > > > With that said, has anyone noticed that the girl that plays Susan > > Bones is ALL OVER the first two movies. She's never addressed much, > > but she's always there in the background. Possibly this might be > > because the actress is actually Chris Columbus' daughter. Although, > > she could have easily been cast as Susan Bones AFTER the > screenplay ) > > including extra assignments) was finished. > > > > JK has said some interesting stuff in the DVD interviews from the > > films. Notably, that book 6 has an important relevance with a > > seemingly insignigicant element in the film version of CoS. I > > wouldn't be surprised if JK has also encouraged certain *lesser* > > characters to appear more often than not in the background shots of > > the films. > > > Now me (Rachel): > > The point JK says about the seemingly insignificant moment in the CoS > film that will be important in book 6, is it too obvious that its the > awkward moment between R/H? I think it is, just about everybody has > picked up on it, which means its not insignificant at all. Now, i am > an adamant R/H shipper but other than this moment, what could it be? > > The point Phlux makes about Susan Bones is very interesting; in book > 5 we don't have a surprise personality of a character that we have > had in every other book, so could Susan Bones be that very important > one? > > I must admit i hated the films, so have only seen them a couple of > times each (too much was missed out for my liking) but what did JKR > insist go in the film, that hasn't been picked up in the books? Or, > has it been picked up, so we don't consider it insignificant > anymore??? > > This comment ny JK really baffles me, and as much as I hope we have a > huge surprise about an existing character, i also want the R/H ship > to work out, I'm torn... > > > Thanks all, > > Rachel Severus here: I think it may have something to do with hands, or rather Harry's hands. Harry seems to constantly be touching hands in the movie CoS, first the withered hand in the shop down Nocturn alley, then the guy's hand that was hit with Nick, and then Hermione's hand in the hospital. And don't forget Ginny's hand in the Chamber of Secrets. It just seemed kind of strange that he had a slight fixation on hands during that movie, and it is mentioned in the book, but it is Draco that brings attention to the hand in the shop, and Harry does find the note in Hermione's hand while in the hospital. That's an ugly sentence, sorry. Also in SS, Harry used his hands to kill Quirrel at the end. What do you think? Totally off? Wouldn't be the first time. Severus "it's in his hands" Snape From RSFJenny19 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 17:57:59 2003 From: RSFJenny19 at aol.com (RSFJenny19 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:57:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's memory Message-ID: <23.34062e01.2c7cf9a7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78852 ewdotson wrote : > Has anyone else considered the possibility that this is >Snapes worse memory becase it IS his memory of the Prank, or at least >the begining of it? JKR makes a point of Lupin's shabbiness in the >scene, having Harry wonder if it's close to a full moon. now me: ::grins:: What a coincidence, I was just writing my theory on this last night! Though the combining of the worst memory and the Prank together into one memory is interesting, but that would make that one memory cover an entire day, which is quite long, and one thing that makes it unlikely is Sirius' comment that he wished it was the full moon, which I doubt he'd say if it actually were coming that evening. Ffred writes: me again: Here is the theory I fleshed out last night, based on Snape being the Eavesdropper, but it uses the pensieve memories for support: Snape is the Eavesdropper in the Hog?s Head. Snape put three memories in the Pensieve. We know one was the "worst memory". There is only speculation on what the other two were, but, by going on all we know of Snape in canon, it's safe to attribute the second to when James saved Snape's life (God forbid Harry see his father as a hero in Snape's memory). So, the third? What must Snape keep from Harry? It has to be important that Harry not see. From what we know of Snape in canon, there is no other significant event in his life, except whatever it was that made Snape turn to the good side (I don't believe there is a significant moment that made him turn to the dark side, I believe he was already on that path). JKR has been silent on what made Snape switch sides, leaving us to know only that DD trusts him. What proof could Snape have offered to DD to prove he was indeed switching sides? I believe he provided DD with information - his knowledge of part of the prophecy and that he had passed the information to LV - as proof, which is defintely something Harry is not allowed to see. Not enough for you? Consider this: just how does DD know that the eavesdropper didn't hear the whole thing unless the eavesdropper himself told DD? He was listening to the prophecy, so the chances that DD also heard the exact moment the eavesdropper was being thrown out are quite slim-none. Others support Mundungus Fletcher as being the eavesdropper, which I concede is possible, knowing he was banned from the bar 20 years ago, thus giving the bartender reason to throw him out, but this would have to mean MF was once a DE, which I do not support. This theory is supported by my Aberforth-is-the-bartender-in-theHog's-Head theory, because that means Aberforth can confirm that it was Snape there that night who got thrown out. ~RSFJenny :) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 18:31:56 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:31:56 -0000 Subject: Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: Religion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78853 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > > > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" > > > > wrote: > > > > Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there > > > > a St. Mungo and a Fat Friar? > > If Wizards cannot manage to even imitate the proper dress of muggles > and most don't care to bother, why would they bother with Christmas > or Easter. > > ...edited... > > Golly bboy_mn: I brought this up before, a long time ago, and someone was kind enough to point out that there are Christmas time and Easter time holidays that predate our modern concept of Christmas and Easter. Which I will also point out are only 'modern' in the broadest concept of history. Let's remember that they are based a something that is over 2,000 years old. So there has been a Yule celebration that pre-dates Christmas. Just as these ancient holidays evolved into our version of Chirstmas it seems reasonable that the wizard worlds concept also evolved. But I see that evolution of the celebration of ancient and traditional holidays as independant of the evolution of the wizard world's knowledge of the modern muggle world. Since the wizard world has it's own magical version of common muggle utilities, I'm sure they look at electicity and piped in natural gas as curiousities and oddities. Remember the wizard world has transportation methods that are as advanced as Star Wars and Star Trek. They can cross the country easier than we can cross a small town. It would be nothing in terms of time and effort for Molly to travel from Devon to Diagon Alley for groceries. Therefore, they are able to move through the muggle world without interacting with it. Think of yourself living in a foriegn country. You have no choice but to interact with that culture, because the only way you can function is to go out into it and transport yourself, communicate, gather food, find shelter, go shopping, etc.... Although, I admit that even muggles create little enclaves of their home culture in foreign worlds, so they can feel comfortable; example: Chinatown-London. Also, note that Christmas and Easter are TERM breaks. These are holidays that naturally or coincidentally fall at places during the calendar year that lend themselves to end of term breaks. So instead of Christmas holiday, we could just as easily have an end of first term break that falls near the end of the calendar year. Three months later, end of second term conviniently falls near Easter. So, I see no conflict between the presents of what we deem muggle religious holidays and wizard being unfamiliar with the muggle world. They are very much independant things. Christ's birthday and death day are ancient events, that also coincide with other ancient celebrations, so it's not at all unreasonable to think that wizards have hundreds of years of knowledge about them. On the other hand, electricity, the Telly, radio, computers, airplanes, etc.. are all very very very modern inventions. Just a thought. bboy_mn From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 26 18:36:58 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:36:58 -0000 Subject: My Post Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78854 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina > wrote: > > Severus: > > > > << O.K. Let me start by saying that there is no real proof to > > support the Harry is gay train of thought, but there is quite a > > bit to support that he is straight.>> > > <> > > > > The gay thread started the day discussions started, and it is as > old > > as the human being :) > > > > In fact I think we were discussing the Harry/Bill subtext, or that > > is where I catched the thread. > > > > silmariel > > Snape here: > I have to disagree, what I stated has happened in the book, > what your friend is doing is speculation, Harry has not looked at > another male and felt the warm fuzzies as he did with Cho. I have > alot of gay friends, and enjoy there company, and find some of them > pretty damn cool, but let us not confuse cool with sexual attraction. > > Severus Susan: I am not gay so I cannot say what a gay person feels. I can tell you that my sisters were 8 and 10 years older than I was. There were many of their friends that I thought were cool. I wanted to spend as much time with them as I could. Why? Not because I wanted to have sex with them but because I wanted to emulate them. I wanted to learn how to act like them. I did take up the flute like one of them. I also do not have a problem acknowledging that a woman is pretty or hot. Lets face it, there are some really attractive women and men out there. I'd hate to think what the clothing lines and makeup industries and sports industries would do if they simply relied on the gay/lesbian people to purchase their products. I do think that JKR is a very good writer in that she leaves us just enough to put our own individual feelings into her stories. Just my 2 cents butting in. Susan From mhersheybar at hotmail.com Tue Aug 26 18:44:49 2003 From: mhersheybar at hotmail.com (mhershey2001) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:44:49 -0000 Subject: My Post Again In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78855 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina > wrote: > > Severus: > > > > << O.K. Let me start by saying that there is no real proof to > > support the Harry is gay train of thought, but there is quite a > > bit to support that he is straight.>> > > Silmariel: > > In fact I think we were discussing the Harry/Bill subtext, or that > > is where I catched the thread. > > > > silmariel > > Snape here: > I have to disagree, what I stated has happened in the book, > what your friend is doing is speculation, Harry has not looked at > another male and felt the warm fuzzies as he did with Cho. I have > alot of gay friends, and enjoy there company, and find some of them > pretty damn cool, but let us not confuse cool with sexual attraction. > I will maintain that Harry is straight by his actions in the > Potterverse. > > Severus Mhershey- I have to agree that the canon in this case does not lead me to believe that Harry is gay. Immediately preceeding the recognition that Bill is cool, Harry is contemplating the fact that he always imagined Bill to be something like Percy, sort of fussy and rules oriented, since he worked for Gringotts. (I don't have my book at work so I can't give a page or quote) This in contrast to Charlie, whom Harry always assumed would be cool because he worked with dragons in Romania. Harry's thought that Bill was cool was simply an observation about a fascinating Weasley member. We have already seen numerous times where Harry displayed envy of Ron and his life, home, etc., and his observations about Bill merely add to Harry's interest in all things Weasley. Yes, the Weasleys could produce children with a wide variety of personalities. One could argue that Bill was at one end of the spectrum and Percy the other, but that is a whole other theory. Mhershey From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 26 18:51:50 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:51:50 -0000 Subject: Tonks. There aren't accidents. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78856 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > "Mev532" wrote: > > I...have questions about Tonks. She seemed to stick out for me as a > > distinct character who I expected to play a larger role. Then she > > doesn't. I think something's up. > > > Any speculations? > > > Yes, I have a speculation. Shortly before I read this post, I was > browsing through the Severus Snape section of Fantastic Posts, and I > came across this question and quote: > > Interviewer: One of our -- one of our Internet correspondents > wondered if Snape is going to fall in love. > > Rowling (laughing): Yeah ... who on earth would want Snape in love > with them? That is a very horrible idea....whoever asked that > question, can I just say to you that I'm -- I'm slightly stunned that > you've said that, and you'll find out why I'm so stunned if you read > Book Seven. And that's all I'm going to say. > > (end quote) > > > I see Snape falling in love with Tonks, and Tonks absolutely hating > it, having no interest in Snape at all, at least at first. > > Or am I just crazy? What do you guys think? > > > Erin Susan: You never know.....if Snape finally realizes that Harry is more like him than his father, we may see a totally different Snape. I would love to see Snape turn out to be a caring compationate (sp?) person who sits down and talks to Harry. Do I think this will happen? Nope. I loved Tonks! Her personality had me laughing out loud to the point of getting strange looks from people. I even saw a young woman get off a plane at the airport who had short spiked bright fucia hair. I immediatly thought of Tonks and almost asked her what her name was. It was really cool. Anyway, I don't see Tonks and Snape together but I do see a new Snape emerge. Sorry for rambling., Susan From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 18:51:51 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:51:51 -0000 Subject: Religion In-Reply-To: <3F4ABEE8.2030801@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78857 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > severusbook4 wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" > > wrote: > > > Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. > > > Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too > > > impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. > > > > They do celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ), and they observe > > Easter (the > > ressurection of Christ), so in my opinion it has a Christian base. > > > > I have not seen a wizard or witch create life from clay, or a planet > > from an empty > > void, so they are not like Him. What I have seen seems very small > > compared to His > > power and wisdom. > > > > And I am a happy little pagan of Dianic Wicca. > > > > Severus Snape > > > They also celebrate Halloween, which is not technically a Christian > holiday no matter how you argue what its beginnings were. Many > Christian religions in fact reject Halloween as a holiday. Some evan > claim it is Satanic in nature. (The whole night on Bald Mountain, > witches dancing with the devil idea). It might be the observance of > 'popular' holidays parallels the muggle schools and in fact, may be more > an influence from wizards who have come from muggle backgrounds. Or the > overall influence of being based in the UK. If it were wizards in > China, I am sure they would celebrate popular Chinese national holidays. > I would bet that American Wizards celebrate Thanksgiving. > > All I see is the observance of the popular 'national holidays' > celebrated in that country (the UK), not evidence that all wizards are > Christians or any other one religion. I am sure there would be a close > percentage of the same religions or lack of religion in the WW as in the > muggle world. > > > Jazmyn Severus here: Jazmyn, yes Halloween, or All Hallows Eve, is not Christian, bu t rather Pagan. Samhain (pronounced "Sow win") is what we know as modern Halloween. Samhain is the celebration of the coming winter, when all crops must be picked by (they believed evil spirits would taint them if left in the ground past this time) and livestock slaughtered in a ritualistic manner (to appease the gods for a gentle winter). These times were fraught with much anxiety and superstition, because if the wrong number of livestock were killed, then the people would not have enough to sustain them throught a harsh winter, or they would have too many animals to feed and they would lose their livestock to starvation. It is also believed to be the time when the doorway between the living and the dead was opened, the people would have a large feast and set places for their lost family members, and the children would dress in costumes of the evil spirits so as to ward them off. I am recalling this from memory, but you can find it in "A Witches Bible, Complete" by the Farrars. It changed my daughter's Christian school's outlook on Halloween. Halloween has always been my favorite. Severus From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 18:58:05 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:58:05 -0000 Subject: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: <3F4869BE.4020201@mail.ptd.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78858 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "T.M. Sommers" wrote: > severusbook4 wrote: > > > > ADD IN: > > book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. > > Or something along the lines of Bierce's "Incident at Owl Creek > Bridge". In that story, a man is being lynched. He begins to fall, > but the rope breaks. He runs away and has some adventures. At the > end of the story, it turns out that the rope didn't really break, and > that he imagines the escape in the moments before he dies. So the > infant Harry could have imagined his entire life in the time between > when Voldemort points his wand at him, and the time the curse hits him. > > Highly unlikely, of course. Very highly unlikely. But it's not as > big a cliche as the dream idea. Geoff: The big weak link in that is, how would a child of one year old be able to imagine a complete life with experiences completely unknown to him, with only rudimentary language skills etc because of his extreme youth? From tmarends at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 18:56:26 2003 From: tmarends at yahoo.com (Tim) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:56:26 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78859 This whole topic is going a little overboard. Speaking as a gay man, I see absolutely no indication that Harry, or anyone else in these books for that matter, is gay. Since these books are written, for the most part, from Harry's perspective, his sweaty palms, inability to speak, etc... would come from close contact with a guy he was interested in, even if he was in the closet and trying to appear "straight". I hate to put a damper on the gay!Harry crowd, but having lived it, I just don't see it anywhere in canon. Tim From gbannister10 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 19:05:44 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:05:44 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78860 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<<"darrin_burnett" wrote: The "surest indication." HOW?...she is on > the rebound and a jealous bitch besides -- and that means he's gay? > Portable closet?...she was using Harry as an emotional tampon to get > over Cedric...No, I'm not back full time.>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > (Not back full time?? Get back here and take your lumps. Don't make > me sic the Cho Chang Tong on you.) > > How she's the surest indication that something's up with Harry is > more the fact that she exists, as they say. She pops up out of plot > point nowhere, as if there were no pretty, ethnic-exotic, Quidditch > playing girls with established personalities for Harry to fall in > love with. Ron's hormonal angst is described in an easy, natural way. > Harry's "crush" on Cho, on the other hand, is handled so awkwardly > that it's downright creepy. Even Hermione, the other woman, feels > sorry for Cho. I'm sorry, but guys who treat girls like that almost > invariably turn out to be gay or priests or both. Geoff: Oi! Go wash your mouth out with soap... (mumbles under breath: wimmin, they allus gets the wrong ideas). I've commented previously that I can remember having hang ups with getting to know girls; going to an all-male school didn't help and not being a handsome, debonair and athletic (ie a Harry Potter type) didn't help. I am not a priest and have managed to produce three offspring so the pennies dropped later along the line..... From mss4a at cstone.net Tue Aug 26 19:31:58 2003 From: mss4a at cstone.net (Melanie ) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:31:58 -0000 Subject: Time travel In-Reply-To: <200308261250.01309.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78861 > > Simariel wrote: > > I thought that before reading Talisman's post, 78370. She has > > reversed your argument, that Harry survives because he > > survives. Thanks Carolina. But I've been thinking about this some more. In Talisman's post, she argues that, because Hermione could attend 3 classes at once, that experiences *must* accrue with time travel in HP. But I was thinking, why must this be so? I would argue that, although they might accrue *in Hermione's experience*, in reality Hermione is always in the 3 classes at once ... there are not separate timelines spawned here. So why couldn't Harry have saved himself? Sorry if I'm being thick again. :) Melanie p.s. I actually think that the most convincing evidence that there *can* be multiple timelines in HP is that Hermione mentions at some point in PoA that "wizards have killed their past or future selves" when they encountered them due to time travel. Well, if there is only one comprehensive timeline, a wizard would be able to kill his future self, but NOT his past self -- that would prevent him from travelling back in time in the first place. This is problematic ... but personally I think Hermione is just mistaken. :) From simoncrowe1667 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 16:45:37 2003 From: simoncrowe1667 at yahoo.com (Simon Crowe) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:45:37 -0000 Subject: Clear case of attempted murder (was Snape the Iconocl... In-Reply-To: <00af01c36bdd$e9c25f40$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78862 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > (snip) > > Actually, we do know of one half-blood that was *definitely* in Slytherin. *grins* Yes, you all know who I'm talking about. > > Lord...Thingy...himself! > > Actually, I've always found this fact, if not Flint-y, then at least contradictory with loads of other canon. For instance: > > CoS, US Edition, pg. 150, "Slytherin wished to be more *selective* about the students admitted to Hogwarts. He believed that magical learning should be kept within all-magic families." > > OotP, US Edition, pg. 205, "Said Slytherin, "We'll teach just those/ Whose ancestry is purest." > > As far as I can tell, the Sorting Hat is *supposed* to sort the students according to which Founder would have wanted them in his/her House, based on the qualities that each student possesses. So, what's it doing sorting a student into Slytherin that Salazar wouldn't have even wanted admitted to the school? > > The only thing I can think of is that the fact that Riddle was the *Heir* of Slytherin overrode the fact that he was not from a "all- magic family." > > BTW, I do agree that Snape is most likely a pureblood, however. > > Laura (who really *should* be packing for college.) This the very subject of the "Blood and Artifice" post. I began it as "The Sorting Hat." I've been curious about the Sorting Hat for some time -- that is, whether it sorts students based on inborn traits (halfbloods in Slytherin debate) or characteristics/qualities that are extrinsic (e.g., work ethic, altruistic tendencies, etc.) or some combination thereof. I didn't think of Riddle as the true heir of Slytherin, though. That's an interesting point. I'm still persuaded, though, that for the Hat to sort a halfblood into Slytherin, the halfblood would have to possess in abundance those qualities most clearly associated with membership in that house. --Simon From tim at marvinhold.com Tue Aug 26 18:52:04 2003 From: tim at marvinhold.com (marvinhold) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:52:04 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78863 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Maneelyfh and I have been comparing our opinions on Fudge and his > convenient stance on LV not being back untill the end of OotP. > > I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge > is in leagues with LV. Snip > One final question, does everyone think Fudge is an idiot? He did > become MOM some how. Do you think that he would be this clueless in > all the signs pointing to LV's resurection? Fudge knew, but he also > knew LV needed time to gain his army back, and Fudge was able to > deny his existence with plausible deniability. > > Severus "I'm not a DE, He is." Snape I think Fudge is a fool. But JKR is as usual being very ambiguous. I suspect that JKR's inspiration for Fudge is England's Prime Minister prior to World War II Neville Chamberlain who, after negotiating with Hilter in 1938, announced "Peace in our time". Of course he was wrong and was replaced by Churchill for the duration of the war Tim From mss4a at cstone.net Tue Aug 26 19:41:54 2003 From: mss4a at cstone.net (Melanie ) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:41:54 -0000 Subject: Religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78864 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" wrote: > Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. > Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too > impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. If you read Alan Jacobs' article in First Things (www.firstthings.com -- search for "harry potter"), he makes the point convincingly that magic in the HPverse is not a religion, but a science. This seems right to me. Magic is a secular pursuit. Therefore I would imagine there are Christian wizards, Muslim wizards, atheist wizards, etc. Really the wizarding world is more like an ethnic group than a religious one. For that reason I've wondered (as Golly mentioned) whether there might be wizarding denominations of Christianity, just as we have different ethnic churches in the Muggle world (ie, Korean, African, Lebanese, etc.). Who knows? Melanie From phluxist at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 17:42:16 2003 From: phluxist at yahoo.com (phluxist) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:42:16 -0000 Subject: Book Six Titles Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78866 I came across a little snip at another HP website, and I thought I'd pass it along here: On July 24th a company by the name of "Seabottom Productions Limited" registered two trademarks by the names of "Harry Potter and the Mudblood Revolt" and "Harry Potter and the Quest of the Centaur". This company must be related to WB, since the HP trademark is now their property. I'm sure everyone has heard of the other book titles like "Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell", "Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat", or "Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light", which were all patented just before the release of GoF, in 2000. I can't imagine "mudblood" finding its way into a title written by JK. These are all certainly just red herrings, and assuredly won't be future book titles. But, its fun to speculate. -Phlux From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 26 19:44:09 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:44:09 -0000 Subject: 4 Voldemort Phases (was re: Pureblood DE and Knights of Walpurgis) In-Reply-To: <085101c36bd2$4ece8f50$43c50c0c@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78867 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamee Livingston" wrote: > 4. Voldemort reborn. Now we come to the current Voldemort, the one who > spent13 (is that number right?) years barely surviving, brooding on Harry > Potter, who once again in the Graveyard thwarted him and made him look weak. > And he is weak right now, and Harry has become his obsession. He knows that > unless he can kill Harry, he will never be the power he once was. He'll > never strike the terror he once did. So now his obsession is not so much to > control the world, but to destroy his enemy, and regain his invulnerability. > I think that's why Voldemort isn't so frightening now. He's already been > vanquished once and so now his focus has shifted. You forget that Voldemort has several projects going in parallel, with Harry being only one (albeit important) one. He's recruited the dementors, most giants and perhaps others already. He has already split the wizarding world and is seeding conflict and confusion - just see the state of the Ministry of Magic - supposedly the centerpiece of resistance to him. It is implied that he is talking to the goblins (imagine him taking over the financial resources of WW). Then let's not forget Trelawney's second prophecy about him rising "greater and more terrible than ever before". No, I think you grossly underestimate him. True, he is obsessed with killing Harry, but he does not let that take him away from the rest of his plans. He was in stealth mode until now, that's all. Salit From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 18:45:00 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:45:00 -0000 Subject: Presenting: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: <14a.22cc9fb7.2c6d97bc@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78868 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/14/2003 3:09:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > miss_america_03 at y... writes: > ...I know I'm not the only one! :) > > ~RSFJenny You're NOT the only one! This one has been eating at me for weeks. There's no way the Cruciatus would have done this to them. Is it time to cast this out into Theory Bay? How much canon would we need to back it up beforehand? There are no blue bubbles anywhere, but there are a lot of bubbles with candles in them. There's no music being piped in that we know of, but there are lots of ways to fiddle w/ someone's brain. It's interesting that Lockhart is getting better (somewhat) and that Bode was turning around. Why not the Longbottoms? From fc26det at aol.com Tue Aug 26 19:52:40 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:52:40 -0000 Subject: Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: Religion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78869 > Explain the wireless and the knight bus and the HEx. They have > knowledge of these things even if theirs work on magic. > > If you can find out a reason why they have a knight bus but can't > manage to get a Muggle grade 10 science textbook to learn about the > muggle world and things like electricity, I would be most grateful. > > > Golly Susan: They do though don't they? They have the class called Muggle Studies. Susan From liliana at worldonline.nl Tue Aug 26 20:12:20 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:12:20 -0000 Subject: JKR interview -Susan Bones(was: Re: generational parallels / Heir of Hufflepuff) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78870 > Severus here: > I think it may have something to do with hands, or rather > Harry's hands. Harry seems to constantly be touching hands in the > movie CoS, first the withered hand in the shop down Nocturn alley, > then the guy's hand that was hit with Nick, and then Hermione's hand > in the hospital. And don't forget Ginny's hand in the Chamber of > Secrets. It just seemed kind of strange that he had a slight > fixation on hands during that movie, and it is mentioned in the > book, but it is Draco that brings attention to the hand in the shop, > and Harry does find the note in Hermione's hand while in the > hospital. That's an ugly sentence, sorry. Also in SS, Harry used > his hands to kill Quirrel at the end. What do you think? Totally > off? Wouldn't be the first time. > > Severus "it's in his hands" Snape I have been hoping to throw my two knuts into this discussion, which started some time ago. IMHO, it is the scene in which Harry comes out of Knockturn Alley, with broken glasses. Hermione repairs his glasses (again) and Harry makes a point that he really ought to remember that spell. Why do I think that that scene was important to remain? Because of something JKR said, that was published in Readers Digest, december 2000: "....outraged that an Italian dust jacket shows Harry minus his glasses. "Don't they understand that they are the clue to his vulnerability?". Harry's eyesight is, IMO, going to be a problem for him, as he sees everything in a blurr until he puts his glasses on. But as you cannot show what Harry actually sees in the movie, break his glasses just to make the point of his vulnerable eye(sight). Minor disclaimer: perhaps this was also brought up in the thread about Harry's eyes and/or eyesight. My humble apologies then, as I have not really followed that thread. Laylalast From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 20:14:14 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:14:14 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78871 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > The Sergeant Majorette says: > > (Not back full time?? Get back here and take your lumps. Don't make > me sic the Cho Chang Tong on you.) > > How she's the surest indication that something's up with Harry is > more the fact that she exists, as they say. She pops up out of plot > point nowhere, as if there were no pretty, ethnic-exotic, Quidditch > playing girls with established personalities for Harry to fall in > love with. Ron's hormonal angst is described in an easy, natural way. > Harry's "crush" on Cho, on the other hand, is handled so awkwardly > that it's downright creepy. Even Hermione, the other woman, feels > sorry for Cho. I'm sorry, but guys who treat girls like that almost > invariably turn out to be gay or priests or both. How is she a > jealous bitch if a guy asks her out on a date, and dumps her to meet > another girl? If Harry had tried that on Hermione, she'd have hexed > his butt to a fare-thee-well. > > Speaking as a person who actually was a teenage girl decades ago, I > have to *hope* Harry turns out gay -- I wouldn't wish that drama on > my worst (female) enemy. > > That said, my serious adult opinion of the Potterverse is that there > is no sex, period. Nobody's gay, nobody's straight. We're dealing > with a Ripping Yarn here. The principals are Jolly Chums. The tale > ends when the chums are too old not to have dealt with physical > sexuality. > > And THAT said, *serious* adult opinions are of questionable > appropriateness here. Herbal tea, people, herbal tea. It's fiction, > remember? The flaming wizards can't hurt you... > > --JDR Quoth me (Richard) ... I don't mean to insult you personally, but I've always found that women who try to explain or describe how a boy (or a man, even) feels when it comes to romance slightly offensive. I've never heard or read one without a couple of decades in practice as a psychiatrist or pschologist get it even half right. Despite our desires that we all be equal, we have a fundamental problem in that we are not all the same. The two are easily confused, and when confused problems ensue. Thinking that you know how a member of the other gender(s) (allowing for gay, bi and straight of each physical gender, plus hermaphrodites, the asexual, etc.), is pretty brazen. We have a hard enough time truly understanding people of our own genders and persuasions. Yet, how often do we hear people explaining just what a third party feels, or telling us how we feel. Men ... and more specifically husbands ... generally get it right. They tell each other that they are clueless about how women think and feel. Time and experience can change that with a specific partner, but let's face it: most men remain clueless about women their entire lives, and are at least honest enough to both recognize and admit it. As a male of maturing years, who was slammed firmly against the hetero- end of the spectrum virtually from birth (and is slightly jealous, since bi- guys have at least theoretical access to the full adult human population, whereas us straight guys have such to only a little over half that population), let me say that JKR does a better job than most women, but she still doesn't get it entirely right. That is, I believe, one of the bigger reasons why that part of the tale is a bit awkward. But, what JKR gets right is that boys can be and often are quite clueless about social interactions and dating until rather late in their development. Forget about the female psychy ... guys are beyond mere cluelessness there. Further, with Harry having an abysmal background when it comes to supposed family, and less experience dealing with other children of ANY gender than most any child not raised by wolves, the fact that Harry would handle Cho and her issues badly isn't surprising at all. My personal belief is that Harry is just a quasi-normal straight kid with quasi-normal social development problems, as filtered through a woman's understanding of boys (a little limited, but better than most) and writing skills (far better than most). If it appears awkward, too bad, but it doesn't provide ANY proof ... or for me even plausible evidence ... that Harry is anything else. Further, I don't believe JKR would make him gay because most boys AREN'T gay. Harry is, in several ways, "Everyboy." It isn't that I think you can't be and be gay, but that it would be a barrier to acceptance and understanding of her principal character if he WERE to be portrayed as gay, or even bi. Having said all that, there is one last point to consider. It is all in JKR's hands (or mind, more precisely), and she'll get around to telling us when she is good and ready. As she is very good at surprising us readers, everyone, regardless of their personal beliefs on this and other issues, should be ready to be "disappointed" by having their beliefs proven wrong. Richard From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 20:23:39 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:23:39 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78872 Jazmyn: >>>Because Fudge is not a DE. If he was, he would have had Harry come get his prophecy and would have been there when it was 'opened' to report what it contained to LV.. Easy as pie and noone would question the presence of Fudge when the prophecy was revealed at all. Fudge could also have easily arranged for LV to come get the prophecy himself, but he didn't.<<< Severus: >>Then how did the DE's gain entry into the DOM? And LV was ther shortly after Harry, was he also allowed in? Fudge could not just present Harry with the prophecy, it would have raised too many eyebrows and Fudge's cover would have been blown. By having Harry show as he did, Fudge was likely to be done with Harry once and for all, and then could openly support LV. With Harry, the only know defense against LV, still running around, Fudge can't pick the winning side, because he doesn't know who will win in the end. And, I think, that is what is keeping Fudge hemming and hawing about LV rising again. Even at the end of OotP, Fudge was still reluctant to give in and state that he had risen once again.<< Susan: >I agree with Severus. I posted a similar idea a while back. And we all know that bad guys always tell the truth and never cover their own butts so they won't look bad....sarcasm.< Firstly, it's entirely possible that someone other than Fudge could have let in the Death Eaters. Unless you believe that "Death Eater" Fudge is the only one Voldemort has on his side at the Ministry. The Order has Ministry employees, and they find this important as they are certain Voldemort has his own spies in the ministry (OOP, US 95). Plus, we know Death Eaters at least have access to the Ministry: Lucius Malfoy, who has the Ministry in his pocket and therefore probably access to anything he wants, and Macnair who works for the Ministry. Surely there are more that we don't know of, and they could have helped the Death Eaters and Harry gain entry. I can see Fudge waiting around to see who's going to win to secure his position of power. He's not a good guy. But I believe that he doesn't think Voldemort will help him out at all in this respect. At the end of GoF, he appeared truly frightened of the prospect of Voldemort's return. Hence his inability to entertain the notion that he had indeed risen. This also led directly to his trying to discredit Dumbledore and Harry. He not only refused to believe their story, but the idea so strongly contradicted everything he knows (His power, his position, the stability of the WW for the last decade or so), that he turned the story around so that it was not Voldemort who was out to ruin the WW but power-hungry Dumbledore and his mad student Harry Potter. So he does a lot of not-so-nice things in OoP, most particularly allowing Dolores Umbridge free reign over Hogwarts. Even at the end when he is reluctant to accept the truth of Voldemort's return, it is because Fudge has just spent the last year insisting Dumbledore was wrong and now has to eat his words. Fudge's actions makes him a bad guy. It also makes him a pawn in Voldemort's plan as he is actively working to hide all rumors that Voldemort has returned. But it does not make him a Death Eater. KathyK (who will not be persuaded that Fudge is a Death Eater until JKR herself explicitly makes it so) From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 26 20:50:49 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:50:49 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: My Post Again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308262250.49571.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78873 Fran: <> I thought everyone agreed that the default is that thinking a person is cool desn't imply sex, that's why I gave other experience. severus: <> I skip the part of thinking they were cool, not hot, or sexy, or nothing in a sexual way, at 14 and realising he was bi at 22. 8 years thinking he was as straight as Harry. Far stretched? As life, in his case. > Entropy > With all of that said, if anyone would like to imagine that Harry > (or Malfoy or Ron or Mrs. Norris, for that matter) is gay, feel > free. While spending lots of time and energy defending the theory > that Harry is gay (or straight) seems like an enormous waste of > time, I'm certainly all for a little creative imagining during > the reading and re-reading process. After all, my own version > Snape is just a bit darker and sexier than some other posters > might imagine. But that's just me... Thank you, I'll feel free. I know they are children books, not shocking to children minds, but if they can't be read in an adult way, the name of the list is a contradiction in terms. And thanks for the Snape mental image, it's not just you. silmariel From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 21:00:36 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:00:36 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78874 Fran: >And how did Nagini, at least I am assuming LV still has Nagini get into the MOM, and down to the Dept of Mysteries the night she bit Arthur Weasley. And think about Harry's year at Hogwarts, all along it seems like Umbridge is trying to get rid of him either by making him so angry, or getting him expelled. Harry would be alot easier to get to if he were away from Hogwarts< KathyK: Harry doesn't need Umbridge's help to make him angry. But I do agree that she is doing everything she can to discredit and get rid of Harry. But I don't think she's doing it because she is helping out Lord Voldemort. She can be awful and evil all on her own without his help. Picture this: Fudge returns from Hogwarts after the disastrous Triwizard Tournament. He's got a trail of bodies ending with a dead student, a soulless presumed dead Death Eater, and the most powerful wizard in the world telling him the other most powerful but evil wizard in the world has returned after about 14 years. The prospect of a returned Voldemort is more than he can handle. Just the news that he'd returned would mean utter chaos, and probably the end of his own career. How could he allow Voldemort to return? So Fudge absolutely refuses to take the idea seriously. Instead he turns to the lesser of two evils: Dumbledore. He knows Dumbledore is strong and influential. If Dumbledore starts spreading these completely unfounded rumors, Fudge is done for. So he needs to work fast to discredit him. He tells his loyal employees that Dumbledore is telling everyone that You-Know-Who is back. Why? Because Dumbledore is tired of just having Hogwarts. He wants the rest of the WW under his control as well. Not a difficult idea to swallow for a group of power-loving officials interested in keeping their jobs. They know what the mere idea of Voldemort's return would mean. So they begin their campaign to discredit Dumbledore and Harry. They use the Daily Prophet to spread the idea that Harry is an attention- starved lunatic. They make sure the Prophet doesn't run anything about Voldemort's supposed return. They demote Dumbledore in the Wizengamot for not keeping his mouth shut. Then we have Dolores Umbridge, loyal and ruthless Ministry employee. She can see the attempts are not enough. So she does something so heinous she dare not even tell Fudge she's done it: Send Dementors after Harry. It's my belief that she does this with the intent of getting rid of Harry not by getting him to use illegal magic, but by letting the Dementors suck his soul. That would stop his lie spreading. She failed because Harry knew how to conjure a Patronus. The Ministry gets their next shot at Harry at his hearing. Again they fail to discredit him and remove him from the WW where he can't spread his phony stories anymore. So Fudge gets Umbridge to be the new DADA so she can watch Dumbledore and Harry very closely, as well as work on squelching the notion that Voldemort is back. So we've got that awful quill, where I think Umbridge truly believed Harry was lying so she tried to drive the message home to him that his stories would not be tolerated. We've also got all her miserable decrees which I think were a combination of trying to keep Hogwarts IN LINE with the Ministry and to squelch any Voldemort rumors. I don't think she was aiming directly at getting rid of Harry, but it always turned out that way because Harry was always ready and willing to fight against everything she did and stood for. Umbridge is a horrible, nasty woman. She clearly hates Harry and Dumbledore as well as half-breeds and rule-breakers. But like Fudge, she is not a Death Eater. She likes her position and authority, like Fudge. She, probably because of what Fudge has told her, sees Dumbledore and his "false" reports of Voldemort's return as dangerous to her position as well as to the Wizarding World. She and Fudge both unwittingly helped Voldemort by keeping his return quiet. But they didn't do this because they are his followers, they did this to ensure their own careers were safe. They don't have to be Death Eaters to be Evil. I hope that made sense, Kathy "Not everyone has to be a Death Eater" K From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 21:09:24 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:09:24 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78875 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > Fran: > >And how did Nagini, at least I am assuming LV still has Nagini get > into the MOM, and down to the Dept of Mysteries the night she bit > Arthur Weasley. > And think about Harry's year at Hogwarts, all along it seems like > Umbridge is trying to get rid of him either by making him so angry, > or getting him expelled. Harry would be alot easier to get to if he > were away from Hogwarts< > > KathyK: > > Harry doesn't need Umbridge's help to make him angry. But I do agree > that she is doing everything she can to discredit and get rid of > Harry. But I don't think she's doing it because she is helping out > Lord Voldemort. She can be awful and evil all on her own without his > help. > > Picture this: Fudge returns from Hogwarts after the disastrous > Triwizard Tournament. He's got a trail of bodies ending with a dead > student, a soulless presumed dead Death Eater, and the most powerful > wizard in the world telling him the other most powerful but evil > wizard in the world has returned after about 14 years. > Kathy "Not everyone has to be a Death Eater" K And who was the one who had the dementors dliver the kiss to Crouch without questioning? None other than Fudge himself! Makes things nice and tidy for there being less evidence of LV being back! fran From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 21:15:12 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:15:12 -0000 Subject: Question about James Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78876 Hi y'all, I have a question that I haven't been able to find an answes to, and was wondering if somebody could give me either an answer or a place to check (other than the Lexicon, which I have checked). Do we know or have any idea if James' family was one of the pure blooded wizard families? I know that there's been almost no reference to them in the books, but I've been considering some things, and was wondering if there was a consensus about this. And so far have found nothing to indicate one way or the other. Am I missing something? Thanks! Christy From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 20:26:38 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:26:38 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78877 > > Fudge being a DE is a point in the plot as the MOM is so totally > against the idea of LV being back. This gives LV pleanty of time to > round up old supporters and acquire new. The denial of LV's return > also makes life for the Order very hard, especially on Sirius. If > Fudge had believed DD, then he may have had a change of heart on > Sirius. > > fran Although I like the idea of Fudge being a DE, it is true that Voldemort would have no problem getting into the MoM if he were. I think it's more likely that Fudge is being bought by Malfoy. He always asked Dumbledore for advice before, and so between needing advice and wanting money/power, he's glad to have Malfoy aboard. Thoughts? From dwoodward at towson.edu Tue Aug 26 20:49:41 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Deirdre F Woodward) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:49:41 -0400 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices References: <1061923110.18401.66620.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <001001c36c13$95ab0f20$79092244@parkvl01.md.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78878 Golly wrote: >Molly couldn't care less about Muggles. Arthur >is looked upon as a >odd for being so interested. Yet Molly >celebrates Easter and >Christmas will all the same traditions. There are >trees and lights >and gifts and candy eggs and such. >It seems to me that Wizards are mostly Christian >at least by heritage >and tradition even if they secular in their >practice. me: Actually, Christains are following Pagan rituals when they celebrate Christmas and Easter. Christ's historical birth isn't December 25 -- missionaries hijacked the pagan celebration of winter solstice. Likewise, the spring solstice, occuring as it does so close to Passover, was hijacked for the historically marked crucificition and ascention. All the attendant imagery -- rebirth, et al -- Pagan! Pagan = Wiccan = Witch Christmas and Easter, then, I would think, are acutally wizard holidays that Muggles have reinterpreted at Christian rituals. Deirdre Eight of Eight From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Aug 26 20:49:14 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:49:14 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! References: Message-ID: <3F4BC7CA.2080909@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78879 KathyK wrote: > > Firstly, it's entirely possible that someone other than Fudge could > have let in the Death Eaters. Unless you believe that "Death Eater" > Fudge is the only one Voldemort has on his side at the Ministry. The > Order has Ministry employees, and they find this important as they > are certain Voldemort has his own spies in the ministry (OOP, US 95). > I would put my bets on McNair as he works for the MOM and could lead the other DEs in. Note however that LV never entered the Dept of Mysteries, but was lurking outside near the fountain. Maybe there were too many magical alarms or defenses against LV to allow him to enter the Dept of Mysteries itsself, but he could enter the courtyard area? > Plus, we know Death Eaters at least have access to the Ministry: > Lucius Malfoy, who has the Ministry in his pocket and therefore > probably access to anything he wants, and Macnair who works for the > Ministry. Surely there are more that we don't know of, and they > could have helped the Death Eaters and Harry gain entry. Maybe Harry's entrance left a trail the DEs could 'magically follow' to get to the right part of the Dept, knowing that Harry would find the prophecy? > > I can see Fudge waiting around to see who's going to win to secure > his position of power. He's not a good guy. But I believe that he > doesn't think Voldemort will help him out at all in this respect. At > the end of GoF, he appeared truly frightened of the prospect of > Voldemort's return. Hence his inability to entertain the notion that > he had indeed risen. Plus being he is in charge, he would get the blame for LV's return and would be expected to 'do something about it'. He has not the foggiest idea of what to do to stop LV. He has not the leadership abilities to lead a war against the DEs and can't even begin to know who to trust in his own ranks. He is foolish to believe that donations of money to 'good causes' makes someone (like Malfoy) good. He is no judge of character and is paranoid about Dumbledore taking his position, because he knows DD is a better leader then he will ever be. > > This also led directly to his trying to discredit Dumbledore and > Harry. He not only refused to believe their story, but the idea so > strongly contradicted everything he knows (His power, his position, > the stability of the WW for the last decade or so), that he turned > the story around so that it was not Voldemort who was out to ruin the > WW but power-hungry Dumbledore and his mad student Harry Potter. > People in nice comfy jobs tend to fall apart when their comfy positions are threatened. > So he does a lot of not-so-nice things in OoP, most particularly > allowing Dolores Umbridge free reign over Hogwarts. Even at the end > when he is reluctant to accept the truth of Voldemort's return, it is > because Fudge has just spent the last year insisting Dumbledore was > wrong and now has to eat his words. He simply doesn't want to admit he was wrong. It makes him look bad and reinforces the idea that people will demand that Dumbledore take over his job. > > Fudge's actions makes him a bad guy. It also makes him a pawn in > Voldemort's plan as he is actively working to hide all rumors that > Voldemort has returned. But it does not make him a Death Eater. > Fudge would be too high risk to LV as a DE as he is too easily manipulated by either side. He would slip up too easily and ruin LV's plans through his incompetence or sell out the DEs for a sack of gold.. He is a fool in a position of power, the worst kind of person to confide your plans to, but a good person to manipulate from behind the scenes by playing on his paranoia. Bet Malfoy's gold bought him Fudge's ear long enough to fill him with the idea that Dumbledore was after his job. He could just claim Draco overheard Harry saying that Dumbledore wanted to be Minister of Magic. That might set Fudge against both Harry and Dumbledore. Or the whole school.. > KathyK (who will not be persuaded that Fudge is a Death Eater until > JKR herself explicitly makes it so) > I don't buy the idea either unless JKR makes it clear.. Jazmyn From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 21:27:53 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:27:53 -0000 Subject: Book Six Titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78880 Well, actually, I would think that Harry Potter and the Quest of the Centaur might actually be a viable title for one of the books, since we've added centaurs to the plot now, and had Firenze as the Divination teacher. I have a feeling that his part in this isn't done yet. Christy From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 21:28:02 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:28:02 -0000 Subject: Presenting: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: <129.2fb34f2d.2c6d212d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78881 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > Please be nice, I worked for quite some time (ok, fine, it was only an hour > or so, but it FELT like a long time!!) to come up with this. I am, however, > open to suggestions for bettering the acronym :) > > What are SILK GOWNS, you ask? > People who believe in the theory of the: > > Suspiciously > Insane > Longbottoms, the > Key is the > > Gum > Or > Wrappers that > Neville > Saves. > > You know who you are, out there, you ran back to your other books to find all > previous references the Droobles (Best) Blowing Gum, noted the Lucius Malfoy > supports St. Mungo's, saw Bode's death as a sign that things *can* be tampered > with quite easily in St. Mungo's, and are sure there's a reason Grandma > Longbottom mentioned that Neville could paper his wall with the gum wrappers he has > from his mum. > > SILK GOWNS potentially has a lot of canon to support it, and I'm going to try > to gather every bit of it and would love contributions! > > ~RSFJenny Sign me up for SILK GOWNS..I'll take on in green please! I have believed this theory ever since it posted. Afraid I may not have anything to add to what has already been theorized though. IMO, Lucious is behind it. They know something that he doesn't want to come out possibly that he was there totruing the LOngbottoms but got away. I think one reason Neville is so good at Herbology is that he will come up with a cure for his parents. Fran From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 21:50:43 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:50:43 -0000 Subject: Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: Religion) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78882 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > > ... Christmas time and Easter time holidays ... predate our modern > > concept of Christmas and Easter. ... these ancient holidays > > evolved into our version of Chirstmas ... the wizard worlds > > concept also evolved. > feetmadeofclay: > > Except that they celebrate it the way Muggles do even with their own > (oppressive) version of fairylights and similar carols that would > have been far more recently written. bboy_mn: You ignore one very critical word in my post, 'evolved'. " ...these ancient holidays /evolved/ into our version of Chirstmas, it seems reasonable that the wizard worlds concept also /evolved/." The Christmas time celebration according to my research is over 4,000 years old. The wizard world lives, base on the speculation of many, in approximately the 17th or possible in some ways, the 18th century. I think Christmas, as a Christian holiday existed back then. I will top that off by saying that not only do I think wizards are aware of Christian history, I think they took an active part in it. It would seem that the wizard and muggle world have merged and separated many time through out history. It seems reasonable that at sometime during 1,000BC to 1,000AD, they must have been merged. > feetmadeofclay continues: > > What explains the use of Christmas trees (a modern import to Britain > - or are all Wizards traditionally German?) and use of the terms > like 'Christmas'. bboy_mn: The history and tradition of the Christmas tree, although since it predates Christmas, it didn't go by that name; is over 1,000 years old. And, yes our modern western version of the Christmas tree as well as many other aspect of our modern Christmas do come from German traditions. So, if those traditions can go from the German world to permeating the entire Western world, and even penetrating into the Eastern world, why not from muggle world to wizard world? > feetmadeofclay continues: > > They don't celebrate the solctice or such. bboy_mn: again, a product of evolution. > feetmadeofclay continues: > > There is also no reason to set the term the way they do around > Christian holidays. ...edited.. > > These are all meant to be common aspects with the muggle world. > bboy_mn: There are many aspect of the muggle world that encroach on the wizard world. Especially, in more recent history as muggles/muggle-borns and magic people inter-marry. But as I tried to point out, while wizards may have access to the muggle world, they are able to go about their daily lives without interacting with it. Just as people who live their foreign lives completely in Chinatown-LA, Chinatown-London, Chinatown-New York are able to live in those foreign countries and completely avoid the local culture. They live Chinese, they speak Chinese, they associate only with Chinese yet they do not live in China. It's not that hard to avoid and remain ignorant of a culture that surrounds you if you are provided with the resources to do so. So, wizards do have some exposure to the muggle world. When you marry a muggle born, you can't separate yourself from the traditions that your muggle-born spouse takes for granted. But at the same time that bits and pieces are forces on you, you are still able to avoid the bulk of it because your daily life does not require that you interact with it. Think about this as a point of perspective. Western Christmas or perhaps I should really say Western XMAS is celibrated all over the world. They celibrate it in Japan, and Japan is mostly Shinto and Buddhist. It wasn't that hard for THAT foreign culture to take on a tradition that was foriegn to their own. If the Japanese can celebrate Christmas (year end holiday and time of gift giving) then why not the wizard world. A wizard world that has thousands of years steeped in western tradition, tradition and culture which they to a limited extent helped form. > > bboy_mn originally said: > > Christ's birthday and death day are ancient events,... On the > > other hand, electricity, the Telly, radio, computers, airplanes, > > etc.. are all very very very modern inventions. > > > > Just a thought. > > > > bboy_mn > feetmadeofclay continues: > > Explain the wireless and the knight bus and the Hex. They have > knowledge of these things even if theirs work on magic. > > If you can find out a reason why they have a knight bus but can't > manage to get a Muggle grade 10 science textbook to learn about the > muggle world and things like electricity, I would be most grateful. > > Golly bboy_mn: Well, as someone pointed out, they do have 'Muggle Studies'. Although, I suspect that their study of Muggles is warped by their own perspectives and expectations. The wizards don't live in a parallel universe. They live in the same world that we all do. So just like the Chinese guy who spends his life in Chinatown but still manages to pick up small bits and pieces of the local cutlure, wizards also pick up bits and pieces of the culture that surrounds them. I'm guessing an old Buddhist/Confuscius Chinese guy who lives isolated in London's Chinatown, probably still send Christmas present to his nephews and nieces who live in London. Those nephews and nieces, being less rigidly tied to the 'old ways' probably have addapted to modern London life much better than their uncle. Just like Fred and George have adapted to the muggle world to a much greater degree than Mr. Weasley. Also, there is no reason to believe that Wizard's aren't Christians. The measure of Christian is not how often he goes to church. In fact, I would suspect that both in England and in the US, a majority of people who readily call themselves Christian are not outwardly or actively involved in 'commercial' religious organizations or churches. They, like me, prefer to make their own personal peace with God, and leave the hypocrits to go through the motions of religion. [Not to in any way imply that everyone who takes an active part in Church is a hypocrit.] Again, I end by saying that I don't see any inconsistency. I can see sufficient knowledge and basic participation in Christmas and Easter which are ancient traditions while at the same time lacking detailed knowledge of the muggle world as very reasonable and believable. Of course, that's just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 22:23:31 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:23:31 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: <001001c36c13$95ab0f20$79092244@parkvl01.md.comcast.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78883 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deirdre F Woodward" wrote: > Actually, Christains are following Pagan rituals when they > celebrate Christmas and Easter. Christ's historical birth > isn't December 25 -- missionaries hijacked the pagan cele- > bration of winter solstice. Likewise, the spring solstice, > occuring as it does so close to Passover, was hijacked for > the historically marked crucificition and ascention. All > the attendant imagery -- rebirth, et al -- Pagan! > > Pagan = Wiccan = Witch > > Christmas and Easter, then, I would think, are acutally > wizard holidays that Muggles have reinterpreted at Christian > rituals. Says I (Richard the Uncontrollably Analytical) ... As for the rough dates and some of the symbolism, yes, Christmas and Easter were "usurped" by early Christians in various regions. However, you miss a few critical points. The Weasleys and Hogwarts are not celebrating solstice or equinox by name, or any other nameable pagan holiday, but Christmas and Easter -- by name. One would think that if the Wizarding World, which is quite ancient, were celebrating a WW or pagan/witch holiday, they would, given the historic divide between the WW and that of the Muggles, still celebrate it in an identifiably pagan or wizardly way, rather than adopting the (yes, usurped) Christian symbolism and names. Well, they don't. Even Halloween, which also has ancient antecedents, is All Hallows Eve, the eve of All Saints Day. It would arguably be the most likely to have retained a WW ambiance well beyond that which it has acquired in the Muggle World as the one time each year when witches and wizards could be what they really are in front of Muggles without overly much suspicion. Even the demi-humans of the WW would have some tangible cover, "abnormalities" being explicable as features of costumes. Given the manner of Muggle Halloween celebrations, even ancient names for the day could be used and explained by claims of being "historical for the fun of it." You also seem to think Wicca is more ancient than it is. True, it has some very ancient threads in its tapestry, but it is itself a Twentieth Century synthesis of several classical and pre-classical threads. Further, pagan is a much broader term than the historical bases of Wicca, covering, from the Judeo-Christian perspective, just about any religion that isn't Judeo-Christian. (Islam is not regarded by most of the people I know as "pagan," but as "wrong," in one way or another, yet still of the same god-head.) JKR's WW is a synthesis of many threads, and parts are decidedly Christian, at least in modern symbolism. Some or mythological and quite ancient. Some at least appear to be more modern and literary. Some of it is just plain humor, intended to elicit a smile and a laugh, rather than symbolic. But it is entirely HER World, and she has decidedly not brought religion into her World in any overt way, pagan or otherwise. Rather, dates and holidays seem to serve here more to provide punctuation and a sense of the movement of time, while providing familiar touchstones for younger readers, rather than being core material for either plot or theme. I think of such things more as backdrops for the time-scape of the tale. Richard From freddie_mac1 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 22:24:44 2003 From: freddie_mac1 at yahoo.com (freddie mac) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 15:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Knight Bus and Electricity (Was: Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: In-Reply-To: <1061932829.4759.96151.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030826222444.91710.qmail@web21414.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78884 Golly wrote: > > > If you can find out a reason why they have a knight bus > > but can't manage to get a Muggle grade 10 science > > textbook to learn about the muggle world and things > > like electricity and Susan responded: They have the class called Muggle Studies. And, here's another perspective: Why would they want electricity? Electricity doesn't exist in a vacuum; it has to be generated by machines, and transmitted to the consumer. The WW would have to build power plants, run power lines, etc. Most likely, they co-opt certain Muggle inventions that do things better/faster/easier than magic can, but otherwise, why would they *want* do do things the Muggle way? Note that they have a bus, but still write with quills on parchment. IMHO, there's probably an obscure department in MoM on translating Muggle inventions to the Wizarding world. A good comparison of Muggle-WW relations is the Amish (a religious sect in the US), who still get around by horse & buggy, and tend their farms with animal-drawn equiptment. The Amish co-opt some "modern" tech, but they go through a rather rigourous decision-making process. Freddie __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From zanelupin at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 22:32:46 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:32:46 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78885 KathyK: >>Picture this: Fudge returns from Hogwarts after the disastrous Triwizard Tournament. He's got a trail of bodies ending with a dead student, a soulless presumed dead Death Eater, and the most powerful wizard in the world telling him the other most powerful but evil wizard in the world has returned after about 14 years.<< fran: >And who was the one who had the dementors dliver the kiss to Crouch without questioning? None other than Fudge himself! Makes things nice and tidy for there being less evidence of LV being back!< KathyK again: GoF, US Paperback 702: 'When we told Mr. Fudge that we had caught the Death Eater responsible for tonight's events,' said Snape, in a low voice, 'he seemed to feel his personal safety was in question....' and then on 703: 'as Minister of Magic, it is my decision whether I wish to bring protection with me when interviewing a possibly dangerous--' Now I suppose Fudge's bringing the Dementor along could be interpreted as Fudge trying to cover up Voldemort's return. Indeed without Crouch Jr's testimony there is less evidence of Voldemort's return. But as always, I do not believe Fudge's motivation comes from any kind of loyalty to LV. Look at what Snape says. He says they informed Fudge they'd caught the DE responsible for Harry Potter and Cedric Diggory disappearing, causing the death of Cedric. If I were Fudge, I might be worried about myself, too. He brings his dementor along to see this crazed, murderous Death Eater. He gets there to find that it's not just any DE, but one who was locked up in Azkaban and presumably died there, years ago. Not only that, the DE is the son of a missing (and now dead) Ministry employee. Isn't it just as likely, if not more so IMO, that Fudge had the Dementor kiss Crouch Jr. to cover up the fact that Crouch Sr. helped his son escape Azkaban and has been harboring a known DE undetected for years? "Losing" Bertha Jorkins was probably bad enough press for the Ministry. How would Fudge combat the accusation that he can't keep his own people safe and under control? He doesn't even want these things to come up. So he has the Dementors kiss Crouch Jr. Then he has to deal with Dumbledore's tall tales about Voldemort returning. What's a Minister of Magic in love with his position to do? Cover *everything* up. Not just Voldemort's return but Harry's story, the truth behind Bertha Jorkins, Crouch Sr., and Cedric Diggory's disappearance/deaths. Once again, this does help Voldemort. But it helps non-DE Fudge more. KathyK From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 22:39:53 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:39:53 -0000 Subject: When Harry met Draco, or Pride and Prejudice (non-SHIP) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78886 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Hermione belongs to the long and distinguished line of social reformers > that, with few exceptions, have been nurtured by the middle class > notions > of right and wrong. I've no doubt but that her parents discussed social > issues frequently and involved Hermione in them from an early age. > Hermione has right and rectitude on her side. It's in the blood. She is > for > the underdog as a matter of principle. Unfortunately, it's rather > difficult to > crusade when the dog, far from being under, has powers that match or > exceed her own and has a place in the society that is rather more secure > than hers is. > In the WW, unlike Muggledom, her position is not commensurate with her > principles. She hasn't yet grasped that (with rare exceptions, Haiti in > the > 1790s, for one) successful social revolutions are instigated from above, > not from below. Radicals further up the social order are the prime > movers > for the betterment of the oppressed, not other social outcasts. Until > Hermione > herself gains equality she'll have no chance of influencing the social > order. > Truth and rights are nebulous concepts that change with time and > society. > A right is not a right if it is an imposition on another. Then it is a > privilege. > So passes the Divine Right of kings, the right to practice suttee, and > in the > UK, the right to physically defend your home when intruders encroach. > So also passes 'right' in the meaning of correct. Compare and contrast > today with what was considered socially correct a century ago. Do you > claim that it will not change again in the next century? > > Rather than self interest, which carries overtones of financial > advancement, > I'd prefer self identity - ones perception of ones recognition as an > individual > and as a member of a group within the social structure. A conflict > between > that and some higher truth or abstract right can become very messy, with > the 'self' taking precedence every time. > > I don't believe that humanity is notably rational. It never has been > (Heresy!). > It's rationalising. The first reaction is to act instinctively and to > think up > acceptable reasons why, later. Instinct is a honed survival tool that > has > served individuals, and by extension society, well for millennia. No > philosopher > yet has managed to devise a rational society that wouldn't be sheer > hell for > at least a proportion of the population. The Law of Unintended > Consequences > rules in all social constructs. > Laura: You make an interesting point about Hermione. I wonder if she really understands how deeply the blood issue cuts in the WW. And yeah, the house elves are like the Russian peasants. They were so far down the social/economic/educational scale that they couldn't even grasp the idea of a revolution, especially one on their behalf run by middle class urban intellectuals. The house elves are so committed to the system and so self-identified with their owners that they can't see themselves as oppressed. But you can see how belonging to a social class that suffers prejudice might make you more likely to be involved with liberation movements in general-whether the subjects of the movement have asked for your help is another question. The whole question of self-interest (or self-identity) vs an abstract "good" may be too tangled ever to tease apart completely. Sometimes we justify our actions by believing that we're doing the right thing or sometimes we decide that what we know to be the right thing is what we want to do. I think the process goes both ways. Harry et al are working their way through their moral development as well as their physical and intellectual growth. They are now, at the end of OoP, at the stage where abstract thinking becomes habitual and conflicts of self-interest vs conscience can loom very large. (Hermione is farther down the developmental road than Ron or Harry, obviously.) The goal is to make them one and the same as often as possible, which avoids painful inner tensions. Harry isn't a particularly deep kid at this point but his moral sense is coming along just fine-otherwise he wouldn't have cared what his dad and Sirius did to Snape. He wouldn't have identified with Snape at all. I still wonder about Snape. He's an example of someone going against what appeals to his inner self because he knows it's wrong-Conflict in a big way. He acts as though he's very uncomfortable around people from the Order-he seemed more comfortable with Karkaroff and Quirrell, even if he didn't like them, they were on the same page. So which will win, Snape's self-identity or his conscience? Tune in for books 6 & 7... last aside to Kneasy-Sorry about the handshake stuff-I realized too late that you probably weren't being literal. Duh. From silmariel at telefonica.net Tue Aug 26 22:48:34 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:48:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time travel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308270048.34153.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78887 Melanie: << because Hermione could attend 3 classes at once, that experiences *must* accrue with time travel in HP. But I was thinking, why must this be so? I would argue that, although they might accrue *in Hermione's experience*, in reality Hermione is always in the 3 classes at once ... there are not separate timelines spawned here.>> Trying to explain time lines in English sounds terrible, but here goes... Time travel is a tricky question. Is true Hermione is at tree classes at the same time, and no, timelines do not separate. There is no reason, Hermione just attend class. But if she were killed during a class, you wouldn't expect her to come from the future and save herself. She was killed. She could not activate the time turner being dead, so other one did, or other one saved her. What Talisman says (I think) is once something has happened, the effects appear. If Hermione goes to two classes and retain all the events, Harry has to retain the events of being unable to fight one hundred dementors, so getting dementorised. After that, Harry is off the story, so someone saved him. Till here, we manage: one timeline that can be changed (first time, Snape saves Harry, second time, Harry saves Harry) with multiple H/H instances. Still can be represented with a line. <> And this is thick? Time travel and multiple timelines are a hell in themselves. The problem with allowing multiple timelines as a way of explaining why someone that should be dead is not, is they tend to split to the infinite. The risk of slipping into multiple realities aka parallel universes is too high, and that is really a mess, so I think Hermione is misinformed, unless you allow a 'magic static sphere' wich prevents the 'vital line' of the mage, or the one changing history, being banished :) And just imagine if Snape knew H had a time turner... silmariel From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 26 22:51:11 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:51:11 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? Message-ID: <169.231594fc.2c7d3e5f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78888 In a message dated 8/22/2003 3:38:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, princesspeaette at yahoo.com writes: > >Oooh - here's a horrid. PETTIGREW KNOWS about Snape's spying... > >Look out Sevvie!!!!!!!!! > > > How would he know that? We don't KNOW that he does - but as a member of the original Order of the Phoenix, there's every chance that he DOES. If he does, no amount of Occlumency is going to save Sev... Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 26 23:05:44 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:05:44 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Heir of Slytherin Message-ID: <141.17f24940.2c7d41c8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78889 In a message dated 8/23/2003 1:24:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, dangermousehq at hotmail.com writes: > Entropymail: > His mom, Lily, was in Slytherin House, wasn't she? > > Dan: > Nope! Well... maybe. We don't know--there's no canon I've ever, ever seen. > But she does have green eyes which is good enough for me, lol. (mumbles > something about Lily being the good non-Snape Slytherin he's been looking for) Nope - JKR has said in interviews that Lily Evans Potter was in Gryffindor, "of course!" Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 26 23:07:25 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:07:25 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Flower Names (Was: Narcissa) Message-ID: <134.244ea0e7.2c7d422d@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78890 In a message dated 8/23/2003 3:07:42 PM Eastern Daylight Time, patnkatng at cox.net writes: > Lily: > Lily in Christian art is an emblem of chastity, innocence, and > purity. - E. Cobham Brewer 1810?1897. Dictionary of Phrase and > Fable. 1898. In esoteric symbolism, the lily can represent thought & rationality, as well - as opposed to the passion & emotion represented by the rose. Sherrie Tarot reader for 34 years [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 26 23:09:43 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:09:43 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Predicting the future, Trelawney style Message-ID: <47.32265043.2c7d42b7@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78891 In a message dated 8/23/2003 3:33:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hickengruendler at yahoo.de writes: > >5. Percy: A double agent. > >EVIDENCE: Noted to be lurking in the COS Slytherin halls. Didn't > >visit his dad in hospital (who does that, I ask you?!). > > He lurked in the Slytherin halls, because he was meeting Penelope. > She was the person Harry and Ron met before Percy. Also, if Percy > would indeed go evil, it will probably be, because he is power > hungry. But during COS, Voldemort was completely powerless, so why > would Percy work for him against the powerful Dumbledore? The fact, > that he didn't visit Arthur is bad, but that doesn't make him a > double agent. Why would Percy lurk in the SLYTHERIN halls to meet Penelope - a Ravenclaw & a muggleborn? Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From sydenmill at msn.com Tue Aug 26 23:12:04 2003 From: sydenmill at msn.com (bohcoo) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:12:04 -0000 Subject: Heliopaths In-Reply-To: <002601c36b81$2a861790$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78892 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: Laura's comments: > I think you're making too strong of a statement here. Try prefacing that last sentence with "I believe" or the like. ^_^ > Bohcoo replies, sheepishly, Ah, yes. My old, "driving a tack with a sledgehammer" approach again, eh? Of course the interpretations I set forth are simply my opinion -- and I am always delighted when someone else comes up with a new slant that makes me think, "Oh, of course! I never thought of that THAT way. . . Thank you (fill in the name) for posting that!" I apologize if my statements came across as if I thought I had the one and only correct way of seeing the situation. No, no, no -- far from it. Laura's comments: >I wouldn't be one bit surprised if Fudge really did have an army of heliopaths. Except...for the life of me, I can't figure out why he would keep them in a locked room in the Department of Mysteries. > Bohcoo replies: Yes, well, keeping his army of heliopaths at the Department of Mysteries would seem not to make sense to me either; other than, where else could he keep something like that? It could have come about as innocently as heliopaths being captured and studied at the Department of Mysteries for the sheer terror of their being in existence and Fudge, in his dim-witted drive for power, starts to see them as the perfect instruments of war, and off we go. Wouldn't the Department of Mysteries also concern itself, perhaps, with concepts of war, terror, the darkest fears of humankind -- as well as with Love and Time and Death and all the other well, mysteries, of existence? I am sure they must also study all the Dark Creatures there as well, wouldn't you think? So, Fudge could very well have commandeered the colony of heliopaths at the Ministry for study for his own nefarious, power-driven ends. Look at his immediate attachment to the dementors as his own personal body guards. Laura ends with: > Anyway, who's to say Fudge doesn't keep the corpses of all the goblins he's murdered in that room?> Bohcoo replies: So, then -- would that be the Pie Room at the Department of Mysteries? Big grins, Bohcoo From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 23:14:35 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:14:35 -0000 Subject: Harry & Sirius - certain similarities Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78893 I was thinking last night that there are an extraordinary number of similarities between Harry and Sirius. The ones that spring to mind are: - both grew up in families which are bigots (the Blacks against anything not pureblood and the Dursleys against wizards or anyone not 'normal') - both are the black sheep of the family and compared to a more perfect family member (Sirius with Regulus and Harry with Dudley). - both are independantly wealthy via inheritance (Sirius through his uncle, Harry through his parents). - both have a best friend who's family "adopts" them as a son (Sirius with the Potters, Harry with the Weasleys). - both have a friend who they share adventures and a friend who is the voice of reason (Sirius with James and Remus, Harry with Ron and Hermoine). - both are very advanced in magic as teenagers (eg. Sirius becoming Animagi and Harry being able to perform the Patronus Charm). There are probably other similarites but this is all I can think of for now. The big question is will Harry, like Sirius, run away from home when he is 16? And we can only hope that he doesn't follow the rest of Sirius' life pattern! LPD From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 23:28:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:28:20 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78894 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Deirdre F Woodward" > wrote: > > Actually, Christains are following Pagan rituals when they > > celebrate Christmas and Easter. ...edited... > > > > Christmas and Easter, then, I would think, are acutally > > wizard holidays that Muggles have reinterpreted at Christian > > rituals. > > Says I (Richard the Uncontrollably Analytical) ... > > ... However, you miss a few critical points. > > The Weasleys and Hogwarts are not celebrating solstice or equinox by > name, or any other nameable pagan holiday, but Christmas and Easter > -- by name. > > ...edited... > > Richard bboy_mn: Exactly how old do you think Christmas is? 100 years? 500 years? 1,000 years? No. Try 1,650 years old. "In 320 AD, Pope Julius I specified the 25th of December as the official date of the birth of Jesus Christ." "In 325AD, Constantine the Great, the first Christian Roman emperor, introduced Christmas as an immovable feast on 25 December. " "In 354AD, Bishop Liberius of Rome officially ordered his members to celebrate the birth of Jesus on 25 December." http://www.didyouknow.cd/xmas/xmashistory.htm Why is it so hard to believe that wizards might have heard about it? True Christmas and Easter were ancient pagan holidays that EVOLVED into the current Christian holidays, but why can't you believe the wizards evolved their tradition too. For what it's worth in the mid-1600's the Christmas celebration was banned by law, and it was Christians who were pushing that law. Also, many other Christian religious groups over history have fought to ban the celebration of Christmas for a variety of reasons. I see no reason why the ancient pagen rites of wizards and witches would not have evolved with the advent, introduction, and wide spread acceptance of Christianity. Remember that wizards and witches have not always been separated from Muggles. They have gone through cycles of being integrated and separated. Certainly, a 1650 year old tradition could have easily crept into their culture. And let's not forget that as the pure wizard families died out or more accurately, diminished, there has been more inter-marriage between muggle/muggle-borns and wizards. So, again, I see no reason why the wizards and witches would not have adopted the ancient tradition of Christmas. Just a thought. bboy_mn From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 26 23:50:40 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:50:40 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] King's Cross Station Message-ID: <1d8.fe82770.2c7d4c50@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78895 In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:36:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, EnsTren at aol.com writes: > In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:13:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jazmyn at pacificpuma.com writes: > > >"THE "WARRIOR QUEEN" UNDER PLATFORM 9 > >Boudica, or Boadicea, was a British queen who went to war against the > >Roman settlers. She destroyed the city of Londinium. She is said to be > >buried under platform 9 or 10 of King's Cross Station." > > > > I'm wrackign my brain here and I seem to recall something about Boudica > being > involved in the authoritian myth. I just don't remember how. Actually, she lived some four centuries before the historical Artorius, & about 1000 years before the (usual) setting of the legendary Arthur: Blessed Bee! ~ Goddesses: Boudicea ~ http://www.bpassion.com/goddess-boudicea.html Sherrie [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From princessmelabela at yahoo.com Tue Aug 26 23:56:06 2003 From: princessmelabela at yahoo.com (Melanie Black) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:56:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Harry & Sirius - certain similarities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030826235606.76492.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78896 There are probably other similarites but this is all I can think of for now. The big question is will Harry, like Sirius, run away from home when he is 16? And we can only hope that he doesn't follow the rest of Sirius' life pattern! LPD Now Me: OMG I think you are on to something here. I started plotting this whole runaway thing in my head and it makes perfect sense. 1) He has tried to runaway, leave, or get thrown out in the past. Vernon knows that he can't throw Harry out anymore so he won't try this. But I mean I could see a huge fight ensuing, or worst, Harry finding out who inherited Grimmauld place (I'll get to that in a second). So Harry runs away...scared, frantic, afraid. He gets on the knightbus and heads to either diagon Alley or Grimmauld place. If going to Grimmauld Place (my personal favorite) he will have a run in to the inheritor of the mansion, Draco Malfoy. I say Draco since he is the male kin to the Black family. I wonder if Draco knows he is related to Sirius? And if he goes to Diagon Alley he will make a withdraw from his account and buy property *less likely to happen* The main reason why I think this has potential is that Harry does not have the one person who always comes to him in the a trial. And that is Sirius himself. ~Melanie We shall never forget Sirius Black....long live his memory! Come visit my LJ http://www.livejournal.com/users/princessmela2 Click to subscribe to Sirius_Black --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From MadameSSnape at aol.com Tue Aug 26 23:55:59 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 19:55:59 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion Message-ID: <1c3.e2a6a85.2c7d4d8f@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78897 In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:55:36 PM Eastern Daylight Time, severusbook4 at yahoo.com writes: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" > wrote: > >Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. > >Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too > >impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. > > They do celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ), and they observe Easter > (the > ressurection of Christ), so in my opinion it has a Christian base. Of course, those holidays themselves have Pagan bases... However, IMHO they observe those holidays to keep their students aligned with their Muggle counterparts - thus making it safer for the muggleborns, who'd stand out less from their siblings & neighbors. ("Hey, why are YOU out of school at the end of October?" "Oh, I'm on Samhain break..." Um - no.) > > I have not seen a wizard or witch create life from clay, or a planet from an > empty > void, so they are not like Him. What I have seen seems very small compared > to His > power and wisdom. > When I read that comment, I was reminded of Bishops Duncan & Arilan in the Deryni books... Sherrie (also a Pagan - just not Dianic!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 27 00:06:54 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:06:54 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78898 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > Why is it so hard to believe that wizards might have heard about it? > True Christmas and Easter were ancient pagan holidays that EVOLVED > into the current Christian holidays, but why can't you believe the > wizards evolved their tradition too. > > For what it's worth in the mid-1600's the Christmas celebration was > banned by law, and it was Christians who were pushing that law. Also, > many other Christian religious groups over history have fought to ban > the celebration of Christmas for a variety of reasons. > > I see no reason why the ancient pagen rites of wizards and witches > would not have evolved with the advent, introduction, and wide spread > acceptance of Christianity. Remember that wizards and witches have not > always been separated from Muggles. They have gone through cycles of > being integrated and separated. Certainly, a 1650 year old tradition > could have easily crept into their culture. > > And let's not forget that as the pure wizard families died out or more > accurately, diminished, there has been more inter-marriage between > muggle/muggle-borns and wizards. So, again, I see no reason why the > wizards and witches would not have adopted the ancient tradition of > Christmas. > I think that it is absolutely FATAL to the whole suspension of disbelief thing in the HP books to seriously introduce Christianity in any way. I think that's why Rowling has kept it out of her books in all but a superficial way. People put up Christmas trees, go on holidays and sing songs, and that's fine, but you can't fit any more religion than that into the story, because the whole question of God is too big for the framework. It will lead to all kinds of questions about authority and purpose, not to mention the knotty problem of what to make of Jesus, and it will just end up lifting the roof off the fictional world Rowling has created. I have no problem with the small amount of "decorative" Christian influence she's introduced so far; "God bless you, merry Hippogriffs" just struck me as a joke, and the references to Christmas and Easter vacations, it seems to me, are just methods of carrying over Muggle normality into the WW. If she called them "Solstice Holidays", we'd notice it too much and think that she was making some serious point about wizard beliefs and worship; this way, it just points up the similarity between the two worlds. They have holidays just like we do. C.S. Lewis did this in 'The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe', where Narnia was a land imprisoned by a witch so that it was always winter, "but never Christmas". One just accepts this; if you try to figure out how a world that doesn't know Christ can have Christmas, the whole story just comes to a stop. Wanda From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 00:11:17 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:11:17 -0000 Subject: Time travel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78899 > Melanie said: > > p.s. I actually think that the most convincing evidence that there > *can* be multiple timelines in HP is that Hermione mentions at some > point in PoA that "wizards have killed their past or future selves" > when they encountered them due to time travel. Well, if there is only > one comprehensive timeline, a wizard would be able to kill his future > self, but NOT his past self -- that would prevent him from travelling > back in time in the first place. This is problematic ... but > personally I think Hermione is just mistaken. :) This is a bit confusing, but I'm pretty sure that what's going on isn't multiple timelines. Hermione's phrasing is a bit confusing, but I think I've interpreted what she means (with a little help from my extensive scientific background as well, and a little guesswork) When Hermione says that wizards have gone back in time and killed their past or future selves, she means something a bit different, and I think it's why time-turners have been so controlled. Assume there's one single time line, that moves forward. Events happen, as they happen, and each individual remembers them. Now, allow somebody to leave their original time and go back (to start) to their past. Now say that they kill themself. Instantly, both versions of that person would die. You've killed yourself, and therefore, changed the future. You no longer exist, so you die, along with your past self. The future is changed, based upon that event, so everything from that point onward changes. This could get pretty messy, when one starts to consider all the events that then must change due to your never existing. And all this would start to happen instantly. Doing this in reverse (i.e. going into the future) would be slightly different. Let's say you go into the future, and kill yourself. Well, your past hasn't changed. BUT, if your future self kills YOU, then you die and that future you vanishes, again changing the time line. So basically, what's happening is that there is one time line, affected by everything in it's past and future which by default changes everything in the present. What I think is going on is that all the moments in time are happening simultaneously, and changing one moment then affects all the others, which would probably be obvious to any observers, especially if it involved muggles. After all it'd be pretty odd to see somebody just vanish in the middle of the street for no apparent reason. Not to mention the chaos that would occur if lots of people had time-turners. Think of the mess that would happen with all those people changing all these little details all over the place. Pretty weird. Complicated. Yup, but then again, time-turners are very regulated, and it's nearly impossible to get ahold of one. With good reason, apparently. Hope this helps (and doens't confuse any more!) Christy From eligro2000 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 00:35:20 2003 From: eligro2000 at yahoo.com (eligro2000) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:35:20 -0000 Subject: Predicting the future, Trelawney style In-Reply-To: <47.32265043.2c7d42b7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78900 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/23/2003 3:33:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > hickengruendler at y... writes: > > > >5. Percy: A double agent. > > >EVIDENCE: Noted to be lurking in the COS Slytherin halls. Didn't > > >visit his dad in hospital (who does that, I ask you?!). > > > > He lurked in the Slytherin halls, because he was meeting Penelope. She was the person Harry and Ron met before Percy. Also, if Percy would indeed go evil, it will probably be, because he is power hungry. But during COS, Voldemort was completely powerless, so why would Percy work for him against the powerful Dumbledore? The fact, that he didn't visit Arthur is bad, but that doesn't make him a double agent. > > Why would Percy lurk in the SLYTHERIN halls to meet Penelope - a Ravenclaw & > a muggleborn? To clarify ... I was predicting that Percy would be good (my use of the phrase "double agent" was misleading, sorry). I think he was lurking around Slytherin to spy on Slytherin (and not to meet Penelope ... of note, and per an earlier post, the scene was left in the movie minus overt mentions of Penelope ... I think this fact is a hint of his good tendencies). I think the fact that he didn't visit his father was motivated by a desire to appear more estranged than he is; I just don't buy that Percy would become so disconnected from his family so quickly ... In most circumstances, he would visit his potentially dying father in the hospital. Eli From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 00:42:39 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:42:39 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78901 <<<"jenny_ravenclaw" wrote: Most of the gay men I know are quite fine people...Harry and Cho should never have happened...That is clear and JKR made the point and drove it home. Neither of them handled their situation with maturity or respect for the other...This is ridiculous.>>> The Sergeant Majorette says In my young days, I knew way too many gay men. Some of them were fine people, some of them were psychotic junkies, some of them were really annoying, and some of them were boring and totally lacking any sense of style. I like the idea that Harry and Cho should never have happened. So JKR decided to cut her narrative losses, good. To Weasley Cousin World with poor Cho. Why are we carrying on as if "gay" was an accusation? We seem to agree that there is/will be no actual sex until after Book VII, at which point JKR intends to abandon these poor young people to the dreaded fanfic monster. As for speculating on Harry's relationship gender preference, we are simply adding a dimension to the age old "He likes her! He totally doesn't like her! She LIKES him likes him!" lunchroom debate. And yes, it is ridiculous, which is sort of the point. It's ridiculous for a grownup lady of a certain age such as myself to be so completely immersed in the world of a children's book, but my inner 14-yr old is totally loving this. By the way, could Michael Corner be a male Cho? Think Ginny's gay? --JDR From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 00:54:58 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:54:58 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78902 <<<"Geoff Bannister" wrote:...not being a handsome, debonair and athletic (ie a Harry Potter type) didn't help...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says Now, Harry may not be gay, but no way is he "handsome, debonair and athletic". Harry is a scrawny little Everyman. He can fly, sure, but he's not really athletic, he's not debonair (or we wouldn't be having this debate) and canon nowhere describes him as 'handsome', or he wouldn't be so relatable (yeah, that's a word; made it up myself.) --JDR From ewdotson at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 27 00:56:37 2003 From: ewdotson at sbcglobal.net (ewdotson) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 00:56:37 -0000 Subject: Snape's memory In-Reply-To: <23.34062e01.2c7cf9a7@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78903 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > ewdotson wrote : > > Has anyone else considered the possibility that this is > >Snapes worse memory becase it IS his memory of the Prank, or at least > >the begining of it? JKR makes a point of Lupin's shabbiness in the > >scene, having Harry wonder if it's close to a full moon. > > > now me: > > ::grins:: What a coincidence, I was just writing my theory on this last > night! Though the combining of the worst memory and the Prank together into one > memory is interesting, but that would make that one memory cover an entire day, > which is quite long, and one thing that makes it unlikely is Sirius' comment > that he wished it was the full moon, which I doubt he'd say if it actually were > coming that evening. Hrmf. You know, I somehow managed to completely miss that. Of course, if I can weasel for a bit: "'I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon." 'You might,' said Lupin darkly from behind his book. 'We've still got Transfiguration, if your're bored you could test me...'" (US hardcover, pg 645) "You might" what? It's an oddly constructed sentance. Lupin doesn't say, "You might help me if you're bored." Of course, if I were to seriously (siriusly? harhar) suggest that Sirius was so abominably poor at astronomy that he didnt even know when the full moon occured, that might be a bit silly of me. I freely and readily admit that I'm reaching for something that no longer looks like it was there. Oh well, it seemed like such a lovely, tidy little theory. ;) ewdotson From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 27 01:14:32 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 01:14:32 -0000 Subject: King's Cross Station In-Reply-To: <1d8.fe82770.2c7d4c50@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78904 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:36:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > EnsTren at a... writes: > > > In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:13:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > jazmyn at p... writes: > > > > >"THE "WARRIOR QUEEN" UNDER PLATFORM 9 > > >Boudica, or Boadicea, was a British queen who went to war against the > > >Roman settlers. She destroyed the city of Londinium. She is said to be > > >buried under platform 9 or 10 of King's Cross Station." > > > > > > > I'm wrackign my brain here and I seem to recall something about Boudica > > being > > involved in the authoritian myth. I just don't remember how. > > Actually, she lived some four centuries before the historical Artorius, & > about 1000 years before the (usual) setting of the legendary Arthur It's a very interesting point, but how widespread is the knowledge about her being buried at King's Cross Station? I've heard of Boadicea, but I'd never heard of this detail about her last resting place. Is this commonly known in Britain? It could just be a coincidence - I honestly can't see how she could figure into the HP stories. Wanda From gandharvika at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 02:09:26 2003 From: gandharvika at hotmail.com (Gail Bohacek) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:09:26 +0000 Subject: (FILK) I Heard You Cry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78905 I Heard You Cry (A FILK by Gail Bohacek to the tune of _Cry Baby Cry_ by the Beatles) Off the ever-lovin' White Album. Midi is here: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Studio/7779/beatle15.html Here's another Midi...this one is actually better, but it doesn't have the "Can you take me back..." bit http://hot.mididb.com/beatles/TheBeatles.php For those poor souls who never heard this song, here is something for you on Real Audio: http://www.geocities.com/area51/portal/1678/real.htm Dedicated to the folk at WPW...though many of them won't know this song, I still hope they'll dig it. Harry: "I heard you cry. Not this brave at night." His face looked strangely triumphant... Walking back to home now, it was night time Took a shortcut with Dudley Between the fence and garage, muffled footsteps Then my cousin spoke to me: "I heard you cry," He said with delight "You're talking in your sleep, moaning. You cried, Harry, why?" A cold plunging sensation in my stomach 'Cause I knew Dudley had heard I told him he was lying but he smiled As he mimicked my own words "I heard you cry You know that I'm right Sobbing for someone named Cedric You cried, Harry, why?" Then Dudley, acting nasty, smirked and asked me If Cedric was my boyfriend I told him then to stop it but his leering And his jeering didn't end "I heard you cry How Cedric had died 'He's killed him, Mum and Dad, help me!' You cried late that night" I pointed my wand at him and threatened him With fourteen years worth of hate I wanted to curse Dudley right then and there But I had to hesitate My cousin cried, "Who turned out the lights?" I didn't cast any magic So I wondered why I, I realized Dementors were nearby Two of them were coming closer 'Cause I felt them glide My, my, my Cousin was terrified He stared running right at them Then I loudly cried; "Dudley, come on back, don't run away Dudley come on back! Dudley, come on back, don't run away Dudley, you have to come on back! Dudley come on back! Dudley, come on back, don't run away Dudley, come on back..." -Gail B. _________________________________________________________________ Help protect your PC: Get a free online virus scan at McAfee.com. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 27 02:15:00 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:15:00 -0000 Subject: Virus Warning Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78906 I've just had two emails apparently from this group claiming to have been unable to send my message "wicked scr scr" (hmmm) to the group "Hc66fGu" as the group does not exist. Needless to say, both attachments contained the SoBig virus (my first! I was almost beginning to feel left out). Sorry for going totally off topic, but I was almost fooled by the fact that both were from this group, and so almost checked them, before remembering to scan at the last minute. Just wanted to warn everyone. Kirstini From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Wed Aug 27 02:22:06 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:22:06 -0000 Subject: Virus Warning In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78907 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > I've just had two emails apparently from this group claiming to have > been unable to send my message "wicked scr scr" (hmmm) to the > group "Hc66fGu" as the group does not exist. Needless to say, both > attachments contained the SoBig virus (my first! I was almost > beginning to feel left out). Sorry for going totally off topic, but > I was almost fooled by the fact that both were from this group, and > so almost checked them, before remembering to scan at the last > minute. Just wanted to warn everyone. > Kirstini I got just such a warning yesterday, but like you, I was wary because of the virus going around, and deleted it without opening. I realized that I always send messages through the website, never through my email, and so I knew there was nothing that I'd sent that hadn't gotten through. I was worried, though, that maybe the virus had started to do that thing where it sends out junk to everyone on your email list, and perhaps they were being screened out by Yahoo's anti-virus program and sent back. It's a clever disguise; I was taken in at first too. Today I got 3 of the rotten things, but they were pretty obvious. Wanda From huntleyl at mssm.org Wed Aug 27 02:25:44 2003 From: huntleyl at mssm.org (Laura Ingalls Huntley) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 22:25:44 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Snape's memory AND a bit o' Generation Parallels References: Message-ID: <00a301c36c42$851800d0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> No: HPFGUIDX 78908 ewdotson: >"'I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon." >'You might,' said Lupin darkly from behind his book. 'We've still got >Transfiguration, if your're bored you could test me...'" (US >hardcover, pg 645) >"You might" what? It's an oddly constructed sentance. Lupin doesn't >say, "You might help me if you're bored." Erm...I read that as... "Wish it was the full moon" - Sirius (feeling bored) "YOU might." - Lupin (who doesn't exactly always enjoy turning into a hairy monster and breaking all manner school rules, not to mention betraying Dumbledore's trust.) Get it? On another note, Lupin is so much like Hermione in this passage that it's kind of creepy. How exactly does one go about channeling someone who won't be born for several years? ^_~ As for the Generation Parallels thread, I really don't see any connections between MWPP and HRH + Neville, besides the Hermione and Remus one. Harry really isn't much like James (at least James at 15, which is a damn good thing, if you ask me), and Ron is almost a complete opposite of Sirius. Yes, they're both impulsive, but beyond that...Sirius is confident; Ron is insecure. Sirius is very much an aristocrat; Ron has grown up in semi-poverty. Sirius has...well, a sort of careless grace, whereas Ron's manner and physical appearance is, IMO, quite awkward. I could go on and on. I *could* be persuaded into seeing a parallel between Neville and Wormtail, I guess -- they would be basically the same person if Neville didn't actually kick ass. ^_~ I guess maybe the Trio + Neville could be *improvements* on the Marauders. Harry is Decent!James, Ron is Sensitive!Sirius, Hermione is Assertive!Remus, and Neville is ScrapofMoralFiber!Peter. Laura (who was terribly pleased with Neville's growth in OotP, but found the similar sudden kick-ass-ish-ness in Ginny awkward and artificial, to say the least.) *sings* "Dance, Magic, Dance." *shakes booty* Oh, David Bowie. I wish I could be properly disgusted at the thought of your glam-rocker hair and skintight pants. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From ewdotson at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 27 02:43:52 2003 From: ewdotson at sbcglobal.net (ewdotson) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:43:52 -0000 Subject: Snape's memory AND a bit o' Generation Parallels In-Reply-To: <00a301c36c42$851800d0$6801a8c0@huntleyl> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78909 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Laura Ingalls Huntley" wrote: > ewdotson: > > >"'I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon." > >'You might,' said Lupin darkly from behind his book. 'We've still got > >Transfiguration, if your're bored you could test me...'" (US > >hardcover, pg 645) > > >"You might" what? It's an oddly constructed sentance. Lupin doesn't > >say, "You might help me if you're bored." > > > Erm...I read that as... > > "Wish it was the full moon" - Sirius (feeling bored) > "YOU might." - Lupin (who doesn't exactly always enjoy turning into a hairy monster and breaking all manner school rules, not to mention betraying Dumbledore's trust.) > > Get it? > [snip] *bonks head* Yes, now I do. I'm not ALWAYS this slow. Honest. I really feel quite sheepish now. (Baaa, I say, baaaaa.) :) Thanks ewdotson From metal_tiara at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 02:55:34 2003 From: metal_tiara at hotmail.com (sophineclaire) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 02:55:34 -0000 Subject: Flower Names (Was: Narcissa) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78910 I have an old British Book from the 60s called the 'Language of Flowers" And here is what this book says about what Flowers represent. There seems to be some differences between my book and your website. Lily: Lilae, field- Humility Lilae, purple- First emotions of love Lilae, white- youthful innocense Lent Lilly- Sweet Disposition Lily, Day- Coquetry Lily, yellow- falsehood, gaiety Lilly of the Valley- Return to Happiness Plyanthus, Lilae- confidence What about Lupin (as in Remus) Lupin- Voraciousness Petunia: Never Despair Narcissus is my book also represents egotism, but as Narcissus, double: Female Ambition Lavender is simply mistrust in my book. Myrtle: Love Poppy: Poppy, Oriental- Silence Poppy, white- Consolation Poppy, scarlet- Fantastic extravagance Poppy, white- Sleep: my bane Pansy: Thoughts, or as Heartsease: you occupy my thoughts Figg: Fig- Argument Fig, marigold- idleness Fig, tree- Prolific Andromeda: Self Sacrifice Privit Not the spelling of the street, but I thought it was interesting): Prohibition -SophineClaire From greatraven at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 03:00:35 2003 From: greatraven at hotmail.com (sbursztynski) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 03:00:35 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <169.231594fc.2c7d3e5f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78911 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/22/2003 3:38:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > princesspeaette at y... writes: > > > >Oooh - here's a horrid. PETTIGREW KNOWS about Snape's spying... > > >Look out Sevvie!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > How would he know that? > > We don't KNOW that he does - but as a member of the original Order of the > Phoenix, there's every chance that he DOES. If he does, no amount of Occlumency > is going to save Sev... > > Sherrie > And here's a further question: what does Lucius know now? (He won't be in Azkaban for long with the Dementors gone). Lucius was there the night LV returned. Severus wasn't. LV said that one of his followers had fled, one had gone forever. Lucius isn't dumb, he should have been able to figure it out - yet when Snape defies Umbridge in his Snape-ish way, she says that Lucius had always spoken so highly of him.Just because he's nice to Lucius's kid doesn't mean he isn't working for the good guys, and you'd think Lucius would be at least suspicious. Just a thought. Sue B. > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 03:01:25 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 03:01:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's age Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78912 I read in a post a few weeks back that JKR (in interview) had said DD's age was around 150, and since I am re-reading GoF I noticed what Hermione says about the judges. Hermione says to H & R "because all three of them were injured in the Tournament of 1792, when a cokatrice...", if this statement is true (it was in "Hogwarts, A History") and the first book took place in 1990, then DD is well over 202 years old, and so are Madame Maxine, and Karkaroff. I don't know if this has been posted and if it has, sorry for the repeat. It seems JKR has a way of contradicting herself. Thought you should know. Also, I don't know if it could be a red herring of some sort. Severus "reading much closer now" Snape From lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 03:08:04 2003 From: lily_paige_delaney at yahoo.com (lily_paige_delaney) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 03:08:04 -0000 Subject: Harry & Sirius - certain similarities In-Reply-To: <20030826235606.76492.qmail@web20708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78913 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Melanie Black wrote: > There are probably other similarites but this is all I can think of > for now. The big question is will Harry, like Sirius, run away from > home when he is 16? And we can only hope that he doesn't follow the > rest of Sirius' life pattern! > > > Now Me: > OMG I think you are on to something here. I started plotting this whole runaway thing in my head and it makes perfect sense. > LDP: I reckon Harry will eave home at either the end of book 6 or the beginning of book 7. I don't think he will run away - it will be of his own chosing. This will of course mean the end of his protection but I think it has to happen to progress the story. LPD > > > > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 03:26:47 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 03:26:47 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78914 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > ... JKR (in interview) had said DD's age was around 150, and since I > am re-reading GoF I noticed what Hermione says about the judges. > Hermione says to H & R "because all three of them were injured in the > Tournament of 1792, when a cokatrice...", if this statement is true > ... then DD is well over 202 years old, and so are Madame Maxine, and > Karkaroff. ...edited.. > > Severus "reading much closer now" Snape bboy_mn: The fatal flaw in your logic can be found in the fact that Dumbledore has only been headmaster for a few decades. Dumbledore was Transfiguration teacher 50 years ago when Riddle was in school, but had become Headmaster by about 20 years ago when Lupin started school. Also, Karkaroff was busy with the Death Eaters before he went to prison, so I assume he didn't become Headmaster at his school until after he got out of prison. That is a relatively recent event. The judges and heads of the schools back then (1792) were completely different people than those who are judges and heads now. Just a thought. bboy_mn From sollecks970 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 20:19:27 2003 From: sollecks970 at aol.com (fawkes970) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 20:19:27 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78915 In the fifth book, There is a simple clue leading me to suspect that Harry may well have relatives from Lily's side. In the fifth book, Chapter 1:Dudley Demented; Harry meets up with Dudley during the night and during their talk he says to Dudley, "'So who've you been beating up tonight?' Harry asked, his grin fading. 'Another ten-year old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago --'" - As we all know well by now, JK is not one to throw words around. What with Mrs Figg in the end of the fourth leading to her true identity in the fifth. The last name Evans I am of course referring to Lily. JK could have chosen any name , but none the less she uses the maiden name of Lily, Harry's mother. Any thoughts on this one? ~Pat(fawkes) (please take into consideration that JKR does not lay down words or names as if it was coincidence , ie : the bug in hermoines hair or on the ledge(rita), the silvery light thingy(patronus) that they mention on the bus in book 3 that turns out to help harry so many times) From dwoodward at towson.edu Tue Aug 26 21:18:38 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Deirdre F Woodward) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 17:18:38 -0400 Subject: Harry the Gay Wizard References: <1061923110.18401.66620.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <003601c36c17$9f68d0c0$79092244@parkvl01.md.comcast.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78917 Entropy wrote: >Being a straight young woman, I have to admit >that the idea >that Harry is gay never really occurred to me. >Frankly, I don't care >one way or the other, but more to the point, I >just don't see any real >proof of it. Me: I've been following this thread for a while too, and I think someone already said much this point, much more eloquently, but I think it bears repeating: Whether or not Harry is *actually* gay is beside the point (well, maybe not to the handful of people who are truly convinced he is gay). That those of us who are straight don't necessarily see any support for Harry's being gay, that's because we are reading the book the way we read the world -- we *expect* people to be straight, like us. I can't tell you the number of gay people I've met that I still say "really? I never would have guessed!." So straighties like me not seeing Harry as gay is no big surprise. But someone who reads the world through a different lens, who doesn't presume to know the sexual orientation of a person (like most straight people do), Harry sends out some pretty interesting signals. Granted, a lot of the posts on this topic theorize a gay reading of the text that doesn't necessarily extend to Harry himself, but still, being able to imagine without a definitive "No!" the possibility that a young male hero, admired and loved the world over by children and adults, is gay -- that's quite a coup for the 10%. Totally off topic: anyone else hear about the Episcopal church in Maryland that is protesting the hiring of a gay man as bishop? To protest, they've draped their entire church in . . . wait for it! . . . purple! The color of mourning in the Christian church, they said, apparently *totally* unaware of purple's other association: the color of gay rights. Deirdre Eight of Eight ADMIN: Anyone who wishes to respond to the last paragraph should take the thread over to OT-Chatter. Thanks! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter/ From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Aug 26 21:36:02 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 16:36:02 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! References: Message-ID: <3F4BD2C2.7000707@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78918 maneelyfh wrote: > > And who was the one who had the dementors dliver the kiss to Crouch > without questioning? None other than Fudge himself! Makes things > nice and tidy for there being less evidence of LV being back! > fran > Fudge didn't order it. The Dementor did it on its own or most likely on LV's orders. LV is the one who is really controlling the dementors, no matter how much Fudge fooled himself into thinking the MOM could control them. Jazmyn From sollecks970 at aol.com Tue Aug 26 21:59:29 2003 From: sollecks970 at aol.com (fawkes970) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:59:29 -0000 Subject: Question about James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78919 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christy" wrote: > Hi y'all, > > I have a question that I haven't been able to find an answes to, and > was wondering if somebody could give me either an answer or a place to > check (other than the Lexicon, which I have checked). > > Do we know or have any idea if James' family was one of the pure > blooded wizard families? I know that there's been almost no reference > to them in the books, but I've been considering some things, and was > wondering if there was a consensus about this. And so far have found > nothing to indicate one way or the other. Am I missing something? Well Christy: Comments about purebloods and mudbloods have led me to beleive that James is infact pure blood: this is because when people tunr on Harry and refer to Lily as a mudblood, nobody ever uses James either: My question is how harry is a half-blood? if his mother and father were both indeed with+wizard, why wouldnt they start a pure blood generation? any comments? "Pat (fawkes)" From tamliv at worldnet.att.net Tue Aug 26 21:59:44 2003 From: tamliv at worldnet.att.net (Tamee Livingston) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 13:59:44 -0800 Subject: 4 Voldemort Phases (was re: Pureblood DE and Knights of Walpurgis) References: <1061932829.4759.96151.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <08c901c36c1d$71741430$43c50c0c@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 78920 Salit wrote: >>>You forget that Voldemort has several projects going in parallel, with Harry being only one (albeit important) one. He's recruited the dementors, most giants and perhaps others already. He has already split the wizarding world and is seeding conflict and confusion - just see the state of the Ministry of Magic - supposedly the centerpiece of resistance to him. It is implied that he is talking to the goblins (imagine him taking over the financial resources of WW). Then let's not forget Trelawney's second prophecy about him rising "greater and more terrible than ever before". No, I think you grossly underestimate him. >>> True, he is obsessed with killing Harry, but he does not let that take him away from the rest of his plans. He was in stealth mode until now, that's all.<<< But why did he come out of stealth mode just when he did? That's what bugs me. You're right about what Voldemort's been doing; he hasn't been entirely inactive. However, it seems to me that his chief focus is Harry and his secondary focus is the resumption of power, and if the secondary goal gets in the way of the first then he just lets it fall to pieces. The thing that drives me nuts is that for most of OOTP Voldemort seems to be working a good plan of lying low, quietly recruiting giants and dementors, having the wizarding world at large believe that news of his return is the results of a delusional publicity seeking boy and a senile old geezer. That is clever; that works for me, but then it is all blown out of the water when he makes a personal appearance at the ministry of magic. The illusions blown and a bunch of his followers, some who would be more useful free, are taken down. What I don't understand is the point of the Dept of Mysteries trap. I mean if a bunch of death eaters can creep in there and I guess skulk around for a few hours waiting for Harry to show up and grab the prophecy, then why couldn't they have used the same circumstances for Voldemort to slip in, get the prophecy, and get out with no one being the wiser. Despite what Lucius says Voldemort does take the trouble to go there in the end, while there's a running battle which I assume is what attracted the aurors and exposed Voldemort. I think my problem is that Voldemort seems to be very clever on one side and mindnumbingly stupid on the other. The only thing that I can determine is that his desire to destroy Harry is allowed to override all other considerations even when it sets back other plans significantly. It's annoying. I want to think that he's got clever backup plans in the works, that he's going to take advantage of a backlash against Fudge to get another of his people in place, but the fact is I don't believe it. He's powerful, he's dangerous, but still he's one dimensional and annoying, and I wish I could respect him as a villain. I'm still willing to be convinced that this is all part of his master plan, though. All ideas and speculations are welcome, because this is really bothering me. Tamee From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Aug 26 23:06:03 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:06:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? References: <169.231594fc.2c7d3e5f@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F4BE7DB.4030506@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78921 MadameSSnape at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 8/22/2003 3:38:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > princesspeaette at yahoo.com writes: > > > >Oooh - here's a horrid. PETTIGREW KNOWS about Snape's spying... > > >Look out Sevvie!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > How would he know that? > > We don't KNOW that he does - but as a member of the original Order of the > Phoenix, there's every chance that he DOES. If he does, no amount of > Occlumency > is going to save Sev... > > Sherrie > Peter as Scabbers mostly only had Ron's opinion of Snape to go on and Ron thinks Snape is evil and not reformed at all. Harry certainly had no love of Snape either. One wonders if in fact Snape knew Scabbers was Peter and was even more nasty to Ron and Harry whenever Scabbers was with Ron? Would certainly leave Peter with the impression that Snape HATES Harry and treats him like dirt. LV is not apt to think Snape to have truly left the DEs if he listens to Peter's 'Ron colored' view of Snape.. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Tue Aug 26 23:53:45 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 18:53:45 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices References: Message-ID: <3F4BF309.5070906@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78923 Richard wrote: >> (Snip) > You also seem to think Wicca is more ancient than it is. True, it > has some very ancient threads in its tapestry, but it is itself a > Twentieth Century synthesis of several classical and pre-classical > threads. Further, pagan is a much broader term than the historical > bases of Wicca, covering, from the Judeo-Christian perspective, just > about any religion that isn't Judeo-Christian. (Islam is not > regarded by most of the people I know as "pagan," but as "wrong," in > one way or another, yet still of the same god-head.) > > (snip) > > Richard > Thing is, JKR's Wizards are NOT Wiccans. Wicca is a religion and happens to be one that 'believes in magic', but they are not in fact 'real wizards'. Don't argue with me on this, as there is not one Wiccan out there who can change a teacup into a thimble.. and if they think they can, they can come here and change me into a cat and prove it. Note there are sects of Judaism that also believe in magic, plus numerous non-Wiccan pagan religions. Wizards in JKR's world are a 'sub-species' of humans more then anything. They are people BORN with the ability to do real magic, not 'religion based' sympathetic magic, not David Copperfield illusions, but real magic. Due it being genetic, they are apt to be very diverse in religions they might follow and not all follow one religion. Hoggwart's mirrors real schools in what holidays are observed, very possibly because of muggle influence. As Hagrid stated, there is hardly a witch or wizard born who doesn't have muggle blood nowdays, meaning purebreds are pretty rare and muggle influence very high. Jazmyn From mev532 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 03:10:36 2003 From: mev532 at yahoo.com (Mev532) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 03:10:36 -0000 Subject: BANG! You're dead! [potter not skilled?] In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78924 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > What he's been through would turn anyone old and grey. But I think > that you're overestimating Harry. He's not a skillful wizard, he stumbles > from one crisis to another, coming through by sheer luck or outside > influence (such as co-incidental wand conflict). What he is though, is > lucky. He can learn a new spell when needed, but a whole new state > of mind, plus a new mental discipline, plus a new magical subject? > Don't think so. He could probably manage to stay ahead of most of > the students, but Voldemort? Arch-fiend and super-mentat? I'd > better start dieting now, I'm going to have a lot of choccie frogs. > I'm replying to an old post but I think this requires more discussion. I disagree fully with your assertion that "He's not a skillful wizard." I believe that in books 4 and especially in book 5 we have finally begun to see a young wizard with real power and the skill to use it. He did stumble from crisis to crisis in books #1-3, but I loved in book 4 when he begins training for the triwizard, learning stunning spells, deflections--learning to think on his feet. This is taken to the next level in book 5 with the DA. He is finally turning into the powerful wizard he is destined to be. He can deflect spells, use many curses, jinxes, and hexs. He was taking on adult death eaters in the MoM, and that was a perfectly level playing field, no phoenix, or crazy luck or residual protection spells were helping him. Sure Harry had to get lucky against Voldemort in book 4, but come on, the dark lord is the second most powerful wizard in the world. I think Harry will continue to train and by the end of book seven emerge as, if you don't mind the term, a proper bad-ass, radiating the kind of power that dumbledore has. And seeing the depth of what this magic is is what I really love about book 5. We finally start seeing the grown up magic that is no longer just cute or funny little tricks, like turning snuff boxes into mice (but the whiskers remain, accidentally), or ton-tongue toffee. It is serious and powerful stuff. DD and others possess terrifying powers of destruction that we are finally beginning to see (though I did wish for a little more destructive spells to be flying in the VM DD battle in book 5). Thanks for reading. Big HP fan Dave From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 04:14:30 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:14:30 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78925 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" wrote: > KathyK: > > "Losing" Bertha Jorkins was probably bad enough press for the > Ministry. How would Fudge combat the accusation that he can't keep > his own people safe and under control? He doesn't even want these > things to come up. So he has the Dementors kiss Crouch Jr. > > Then he has to deal with Dumbledore's tall tales about Voldemort > returning. What's a Minister of Magic in love with his position to > do? Cover *everything* up. Not just Voldemort's return but Harry's > story, the truth behind Bertha Jorkins, Crouch Sr., and Cedric > Diggory's disappearance/deaths. > > Once again, this does help Voldemort. But it helps non-DE Fudge more. > I totally agree that Fudge is all self-preserving politician and not a death eater. He is often shown reacting to things with a line such as This will reflect badly on the ministry... or What will happen if the press gets hold of this? Or -- when taking Hagrid to Azkaban in CoS -- that he needs to be seen taking some kind of action against the attacks on the students. This ties into thoughts of Percy's future. I reread GoF recently and smirked while reading the part where Harry, Ron, and Hermione are leaving the cave after meeting with Sirius. Hermione chastises Ron when he says that Crouch reminds him of Percy. (I think that's what he says... don't have the book handy.) She says that Percy would never throw his family to the dementors. And Ron reacts skeptically, saying that he wasn't so sure of that... esp. if Percy thought his family was standing in the way of his career plans. More proof of Percy as the future Fudge? (In CoS, one of the Weasleys boys says that Percy's goal is to be Minister of Magic.) --serious_schwartz From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Aug 27 02:43:43 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 21:43:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Virus Warning References: Message-ID: <3F4C1ADF.8010007@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78926 Kirstini wrote: > I've just had two emails apparently from this group claiming to have > been unable to send my message "wicked scr scr" (hmmm) to the > group "Hc66fGu" as the group does not exist. Needless to say, both > attachments contained the SoBig virus (my first! I was almost > beginning to feel left out). Sorry for going totally off topic, but > I was almost fooled by the fact that both were from this group, and > so almost checked them, before remembering to scan at the last > minute. Just wanted to warn everyone. > Kirstini > I use Norton Anti-virus and it removed the attachments for me. But I get something like 60+ pieces of infected mail a day, which Norton deals with quite nicely by scanning each piece of email as it downloads, happily striping viruses out and isolating them. My secondary machine is not effected as its a Linux machine and can open Windows viruses all day long without any effect at all. Jazmyn (who suggests getting a good virus protection program if you are on the internet at all) ADMIN: As germane as this topic is for HPfGU list members, please take further discussion of how you deal with viruses and worms to OT-Chatter. Thanks! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hpfgu-otchatter/ From jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 04:43:49 2003 From: jkusalavagemd at yahoo.com (Haggridd) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 04:43:49 -0000 Subject: Is Anybody There? (a filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78927 I thought I was finished with the musical 1776, but this one cried out to be written. It is a filk of the song "Is anybody there?" from the musical, and bears the same title. It is dedicated to filk mavens everywhere. Is Anybody There? (with apologies to John Adams) SCENE: Harry has gone back down to the Death Chamber for one last look before leaving the Department of Mysteries. He contemplates the Veil.) HARRY POTTER: Is anybody there? Does anybody care? Does anybody else see Sirius? They want to me to quit; they say He died in the fight. Still to all those I say He might have, maybe he might! For I have sworn a new mission, I will ever try to find him Come what may, come what may. Godfather! I know you all say through the archway There's nought but decay, no prospect of his returning. It's just a room, another room I say, from which he'll come back to stop my yearning! Is anybody there? Does anybody care? Does anybody else see Sirius? I see the Veil! I see it tattered and Fluttering black. I hear the whispers beyond; I hear the murmuring. I see my Godfather ? big strong Sirius Alive forever more. How quiet, how quiet the chamber is How silent, how silent the chamber is Is anybody there? Does anybody care? Does anybody else see Sirius? -Haggridd From atroposgryffin at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 05:08:25 2003 From: atroposgryffin at yahoo.com (Susan Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 05:08:25 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_McGonagall's_hubby_(was_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78928 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Elli wrote: > I believe she is Harry's great-grandmother on James's side > > Rachna replied: > > I agree in that I also think McGonagall is James's mother or > grandmother. When I read the message, I immediately remembered this: > > Sheila McCleary: Have any of the Hogwarts professors had spouses? > > JKR: Good question - yes, a few of them but that information is > sort of restricted - you'll find out why. > > (Comic Relief, March 2001 Live Chat) The thing in the first chapter of the first book that strongly implies that McGonagall is not related to Harry is this passage: > 'Hagrid's late. I suppose it was he who told you I'd be here, by > the way?' 'Yes,' said Professor McGonagall. 'And I don't suppose you're going to tell me WHY you're here, of all places?' Now, me- I think names and identities of spouses and families of teachers at Hogwarts are restricted for the protection of the individuals. If Voldemort (for example) knew who Dumbledore was married to he could exert undeue pressure on DD by threatening the other individual. Having said that, I have begun to wonder if McGonnagall and Dumbledore are married. When Dippet stepped aside and Albus DD was promoted to headmaster, I beleive he (DD) then recommended a Transfiguration replacement based on his experience that his own wife was a superb Transfiguration witch. I also suspect that other staff members have married within the staff, too. It is natural this would happen when most have been there 14 or more years. Just a thought-not sure how much support I can find for it out there. Atropos G. From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Wed Aug 27 06:03:29 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:03:29 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78929 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fawkes970" wrote: > In the fifth book, There is a simple clue leading me to suspect that > Harry may well have relatives from Lily's side. In the fifth book, > Chapter 1:Dudley Demented; Harry meets up with Dudley during the > night and during their talk he says to Dudley, "'So who've you been > beating up tonight?' Harry asked, his grin fading. 'Another ten-year > old? I know you did Mark Evans two nights ago --'" - As we all know > well by now, JK is not one to throw words around. What with Mrs Figg > in the end of the fourth leading to her true identity in the fifth. > The last name Evans I am of course referring to Lily. JK could have > chosen any name , but none the less she uses the maiden name of > Lily, Harry's mother. Any thoughts on this one? ~Pat(fawkes) > Well, one quick note: Mark Evans is 10 years old. Therefore, he may show up as a first year in Hogwarts next book, which would give us plenty of opportunity to find out of any relation to Lily, and also give Dudley cause for concern... --Arcum From queenofeverythang at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 06:12:13 2003 From: queenofeverythang at yahoo.com (queenofeverythang) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:12:13 -0000 Subject: Question about James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78930 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fawkes970" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christy" > wrote: > > Hi y'all, > > > > I have a question that I haven't been able to find an answes to, and > > was wondering if somebody could give me either an answer or a place > to > > check (other than the Lexicon, which I have checked). > > > > Do we know or have any idea if James' family was one of the pure > > blooded wizard families? I know that there's been almost no > reference > > to them in the books, but I've been considering some things, and was > > wondering if there was a consensus about this. And so far have found > > nothing to indicate one way or the other. Am I missing something? > > > > Well Christy: Comments about purebloods and mudbloods have led me to > beleive that James is infact pure blood: this is because when people > tunr on Harry and refer to Lily as a mudblood, nobody ever uses James > either: My question is how harry is a half-blood? if his mother and > father were both indeed with+wizard, why wouldnt they start a pure > blood generation? any comments? > > "Pat (fawkes)" I think the point is that purists in the WW consider "mudbloods" to be less than wizards/witches - since Harry is half wizard and half "mudblood" he is a half-blood wizard. It may be ridiculous, but it's exactly how we deal with race identity (definitely in America). Harry is likened to a 'mulatto'. It doesn't matter that Lily was a witch, she was still the child of two muggles - And as far as Harry is concerned it only takes a drop of muggle blood to be considered unpure, and he's got much more than a drop. -> QoE - who thinks that JkR has a lot of issues bubbling (not so far) under the surface of these very entertaining books about magic ; ) From zanelupin at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 06:33:58 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:33:58 -0000 Subject: Predicting the future, Trelawney style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78931 Okay, I think I've got everybody straight. Apologies for attributing quotes to the wrong person. Eli Predicted: >>>5. Percy: A double agent. EVIDENCE: Noted to be lurking in the COS Slytherin halls. Didn't visit his dad in hospital (who does that, I ask you?!).<<<< And Hickengruendler replied: >>>He lurked in the Slytherin halls, because he was meeting Penelope. She was the person Harry and Ron met before Percy. Also, if Percy would indeed go evil, it will probably be, because he is power hungry.<<< Causing Sherrie to ask: >>Why would Percy lurk in the SLYTHERIN halls to meet Penelope - a Ravenclaw & a muggleborn?<< Eli Responded: >I think he was lurking around Slytherin to spy on Slytherin (and not to meet Penelope ... . I think the fact that he didn't visit his father was motivated by a desire to appear more estranged than he is; I just don't buy that Percy would become so disconnected from his family so quickly ... In most circumstances, he would visit his potentially dying father in the hospital.< Now KathyK throws in: To start, I think they left in Percy and left out Penelope of the movie was because the whole Percy has a girlfriend was unnecessary to the film and was not even mentioned IIRC. Leaving Percy in is important because with Percy is where Malfoy found them and from there led them back to the Slytherin Dorm. Plus there's an element of humor and suspense when movie Percy asks what their names are and Harry and Ron can't remember who's who. I don't think it has anything to do with Percy being a spy for Dumbledore. Harry and Ron were wandering the Dungeons *looking* for the Slytherin dorm. The Slytherin rooms are not the only thing down there. They first recognize the dungeons as the place where they see the Slytherins come from for breakfast. Then they see the Ravenclaw girl later determined to be Penelope Clearwater leave there. Fifteen minutes later they encounter Percy coming out a side room. Malfoy finds them. They leave Percy and turn down the next passage and shortly stop in front of the stone wall that is the entrance to the Slytherin dorms. (CoS ch. 12 "The Polyjuice Potion") and then, on US Paperback 341: "'It's that Ravenclaw prefect, Penelope Clearwater,' said Ginny. 'That's who he was writing to all last summer. He's been meeting her all over the school in secret. I walked in on them *kissing* in an empty classroom one day.'" Isn't it most likely that Percy was down there looking for some private time with his girlfriend? There are other places down there besides the Slytherin Rooms. Percy could be coming out of a classroom. And Penelope just left the Dungeons. I think it's more unbelievable that she just happened to leave right before he did than it is unbelievable that Percy would be in the Dungeons for any other reason than spying. In case you missed it in the oddly worded previous sentence, I don't think Percy is a spy for Dumbledore. I also don't think he'll turn out to be evil. I agree with what serious_schwartz says in unrelated post #78925. serious_schwartz: >I reread GoF recently and smirked while reading the part where Harry, Ron, and Hermione are leaving the cave after meeting with Sirius. Hermione chastises Ron when he says that Crouch reminds him of Percy. She says that Percy would never throw his family to the dementors. And Ron reacts skeptically, saying that he wasn't so sure of that... esp. if Percy thought his family was standing in the way of his career plans. More proof of Percy as the future Fudge? (In CoS, one of the Weasleys boys says that Percy's goal is to be Minister of Magic.)< Percy has shown throughout the books ambition and a desire for power. He has worked hard all his life to be the best he can. He's determined to succeed. I think we've seen hints that things would go the way they did in OOP, such the ones above. Believing Dumbledore and supporting his family through that year would have contradicted what we know about Percy. It would have jeopardized his career at the Ministry, which he takes very seriously. I don't see how spying for Dumbledore fits in with Percy's lofty ambitions, either. So we know already that Percy's thrown in with a wrong side. And he did it to an extreme. The question now becomes will Percy fall back into the Weasley fold now that Fudge has been proven wrong, or will he continue to pursue his career at the expense of the people he loves? At some point I believe he will realize what he's done. I hope he realizes it before he does something abysmally stupid to his family or causes his own demise. So that's my speculation and hope for Percy. KathyK (who, as with Fudge being a DE, will only believe Percy is a spy when JKR says so outright) From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 27 06:50:30 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:50:30 -0000 Subject: Harry's sexual preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78932 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<<"Geoff Bannister" wrote:...not being a handsome, debonair and > athletic (ie a Harry Potter type) didn't help...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > Now, Harry may not be gay, but no way is he "handsome, debonair and > athletic". Harry is a scrawny little Everyman. He can fly, sure, but > he's not really athletic, he's not debonair (or we wouldn't be having > this debate) and canon nowhere describes him as 'handsome', or he > wouldn't be so relatable (yeah, that's a word; made it up myself.) > > --JDR Geoff: Sorry, I think my wording my have misled.... I think you picked up the exact opposite to what I was trying to say. When I wrote "not being a handsome...." I meant the WHOLE phrase to refer to a Harry type, ie he isn't handsome or debonair... which is why I relate myself at that age to him. From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 27 06:56:30 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:56:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78933 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > > ... JKR (in interview) had said DD's age was around 150, and since I > > am re-reading GoF I noticed what Hermione says about the judges. > > Hermione says to H & R "because all three of them were injured in the > > Tournament of 1792, when a cokatrice...", if this statement is true > > ... then DD is well over 202 years old, and so are Madame Maxine, and > > Karkaroff. ...edited.. > > > > Severus "reading much closer now" Snape Geoff: I think this is a misreading of Hermione's comment - "Well, the Heads of the participating schools are always on the panel," said Hermione....... She is not meaning the current heads but the heads at the time. After all, the tournament has been going for centuries..... From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 27 06:58:17 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:58:17 -0000 Subject: 4 Voldemort Phases (was re: Pureblood DE and Knights of Walpurgis) In-Reply-To: <08c901c36c1d$71741430$43c50c0c@computer> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78934 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tamee Livingston" wrote: > But why did he come out of stealth mode just when he did? That's what bugs > me. You're right about what Voldemort's been doing; he hasn't been entirely > inactive. However, it seems to me that his chief focus is Harry and his > secondary focus is the resumption of power, and if the secondary goal gets > in the way of the first then he just lets it fall to pieces. Not really. Remember that we are seeing this from Harry's perspective so of course what he experiences is Voldemort's moods and reactions to himself. The only "viewings" he ever sees of what Voldemort is doing are things that directly or indirectly relate to himself. This does not mean of course that he is not doing other stuff of which Harry is not aware because it is not related to him. Voldemort's focus on Harry makes a lot of sense if one believes the prophecy, and it seems that he at least does. While he does not know the full content, what he does know is that Harry is prophecied to be the only one who can vanquish him for good. He is also keenly aware that with every passing year Harry grows older and more powerfull. So from his perspective, putting a lot of effort at killing Harry while he is young and vulnerable will ensure his victory as nothing else will. This is the logical part of him. Then there is the emotional part. The idea that he, the most powerfull wizard in the world, can't destroy that kid is not only humiliating but also frightening to him - and probably undermines his status in the eyes of both enemies and followers. Killing Harry accomplishes both goals - removing the most dangerous opponent and cementing his position as the top dog... >The thing that > drives me nuts is that for most of OOTP Voldemort seems to be working a good > plan of lying low, quietly recruiting giants and dementors, ... > then it is all blown out of the water when he makes a > personal appearance at the ministry of magic. He was furious at the destruction of the prophecy but also wanted to strike at Harry when he was completely undefended. He did not know that Dumbledore was there. The plan would have succeeded otherwise. If Dumbledore did not intervene in the last minute not only would he have killed Harry but there would have been noone to alert the aurors to his presence. > What I don't understand is the point of the Dept of Mysteries trap. I mean > if a bunch of death eaters can creep in there and I guess skulk around for a > few hours waiting for Harry to show up and grab the prophecy, then why > couldn't they have used the same circumstances for Voldemort to slip in, get > the prophecy, and get out with no one being the wiser. That's something I did not entirely understood either. My best guess is that the MOM must have hidden security measures that would have been triggered had Voldemort tried to enter. Note that he never actually entered the ministry proper - he was only at the atrium. These measures must have been set against Voldemort but as the identity of the DE's was at the time unknown, and later they were arrested (or "cleared") there was no cause to set them against the DE's so they could enter freely. I find more odd though the fact that there was no OoP member on guard there. JKR had better explain that... >espite what Lucius > says Voldemort does take the trouble to go there in the end, while there's a > running battle which I assume is what attracted the aurors and exposed > Voldemort. I think that the statues alerted the aurors because of Voldemort's apearance there. They must have been part of the network I mentioned earlier. Voldemort could not get into the MoM and not be detected. But he figured he an opportunity for a quick kill and run... He was right had it not been for Dumbledore. > I think my problem is that Voldemort seems to be very clever on one side and > mindnumbingly stupid on the other. The only thing that I can determine is > that his desire to destroy Harry is allowed to override all other > considerations even when it sets back other plans significantly. The point is that he considers Harry the greatest threat to him due to the prophecy and that the danger will only grow if he lets him live. Remember that Harry is protected all the time, inside and outside Hogwarts. In the MoM atrium he was not until Dumbledore showed up. It was too good an opportunity for Voldemort to pass up. >He's powerful, > he's dangerous, but still he's one dimensional and annoying, and I wish I > could respect him as a villain. I don't think we saw enough of him, but considering all that he has accomplished in one year while laying low with a small band of supporters, I think he has done quite well for himself. Salit From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Wed Aug 27 07:12:34 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:12:34 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78935 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > Well, one quick note: Mark Evans is 10 years old. Therefore, he may > show up as a first year in Hogwarts next book, which would give us > plenty of opportunity to find out of any relation to Lily, and also > give Dudley cause for concern... I suspect he may be the trigger for Harry having to leave the Dursleys. If Mark shows up at Hogwarts, his family (and through them the rest of the gossiping neighbours) will suddenly know that the Dursleys lied all these years. Kind of like a Muggle version of the Daily Prophet having suddenly to backtrack on all the slandering they have done for a year. I can't imagine the Dursleys letting Harry stay if this happens. I would think they would probably run away themselves... Salit From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 07:17:35 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 07:17:35 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78936 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fawkes970" > wrote: > > In the fifth book, ... "... I know you did Mark Evans two nights > > ago --" - > > > As we all know well by now, JK is not one to throw words around. ... > > Any thoughts on this one? > > > > ~Pat(fawkes) > > > Well, one quick note: Mark Evans is 10 years old. Therefore, he may > show up as a first year in Hogwarts next book, which would give us > plenty of opportunity to find out of any relation to Lily, and also > give Dudley cause for concern... > > --Arcum bboy_mn: People, people... while I concede that the Mark Evans character is a bit suspicious, we must remember that the Dursleys are the ONLY blood relatives that Harry has. Now it could be possible that if you went back up the Lily Evans family tree several generations and came down a completely different branch, you might find Mark Evans, but he would be a very very very distant relative of Harry's. So distant that Harry could probably marry Mark's sister without any problems. More important, as some one already pointed out, Evans is an extremely common Welsh (is that right, Welsh??) name; one of the most common Welsh names. In addition, coming up with character names is not as easy as you might think. If you have ever written fiction then you know what I mean; it is a very difficult task to come up with names that fit characters. So, JKR re-using a few first and last names is not unreasonable and could be purely coincidental. The only way we can know for sure is to read the next two books and see if it is explained. In closing, the Mark Evans character really is a bit suspicious, but at the moment, I'm thinking JKR just put him in there to drive us obssessed fans nuts. Just a thought. bboy_mn From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 07:54:29 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:54:29 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030826234649.00aec218@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 78937 At 03:01 AM 8/27/2003 +0000, severusbook4 wrote: >I read in a post a few weeks back that JKR (in interview) had said DD's >age was around >150, and since I am re-reading GoF I noticed what Hermione says about the >judges. >Hermione says to H & R "because all three of them were injured in the >Tournament of >1792, when a cokatrice...", if this statement is true (it was in >"Hogwarts, A History") >and the first book took place in 1990, then DD is well over 202 years old, >and so are >Madame Maxine, and Karkaroff. I don't know if this has been posted and if >it has, >sorry for the repeat. It seems JKR has a way of contradicting >herself. Thought you >should know. Also, I don't know if it could be a red herring of some sort. OK...If I understand you correctly you are saying that all the current judges were injured in 1792. I think you may misunderstand. Hermione is reading from a history book that states the three headmasters (from 1792) were injured. Remember, DD has only been headmaster for 30-50 years (depending on which contentions you go off of...I'm assuming that 50 yrs ago Dippet was headmaster so DD wasn't and that DD was headmaster when Lupin, who is 40ish, was admitted to Hogwarts). Anyway, my guess is that you were reading this too carefully and misunderstood what was actually being stated.... From gaspode2002 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 06:54:58 2003 From: gaspode2002 at yahoo.com (gaspode2002) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 06:54:58 -0000 Subject: King's Cross Station In-Reply-To: <1d8.fe82770.2c7d4c50@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78938 --- > > In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:13:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > jazmyn at p... writes: > > > > >"THE "WARRIOR QUEEN" UNDER PLATFORM 9 > > >Boudica, or Boadicea, was a British queen who went to war against the > > >Roman settlers. She destroyed the city of Londinium. She is said to be > > >buried under platform 9 or 10 of King's Cross Station." This is kind of interesting. My Latin is extremely rusty but i think the name "Bellatrix" means "female warrior". Also the Ancient House of Black is apparently highly placed in the aristocracy. At one point Sirius mentions that they think that to be a Black is as good as being royalty. I have no idea what, if anything, this could mean. Gaspode (named for the famous Gaspode). From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Wed Aug 27 08:28:36 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:28:36 -0000 Subject: 4 Voldemort Phases (was re: Pureblood DE and Knights of Walpurgis) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78939 "slgazit" wrote: (snip) > --- "Tamee Livingston" wrote: (snip) > > But why did he come out of stealth mode just when he did? That's > what bugs me. You're right about what Voldemort's been doing; he > > > hasn't been entirely inactive. However, it seems to me that > > > his chief focus is Harry and his secondary focus is the > > resumption of power, and if the secondary goal gets in the way of > > the first then he just lets it fall to pieces. > > Voldemort's focus on Harry makes a lot of sense if one believes > the prophecy, ... what he does know is that Harry is prophecied > to be the only one who can vanquish him for good. > > > The thing that drives me nuts is that for most of OOTP Voldemort > > seems to be working a good plan of lying low, quietly recruiting > > giants and dementors, ... then it is all blown out of the water > > when he makes a personal appearance at the ministry of magic. > > > He was furious at the destruction of the prophecy but also wanted > to strike at Harry when he was completely undefended. He did not > know that Dumbledore was there. > > > What I don't understand is the point of the Dept of Mysteries > > > trap. I mean if a bunch of death eaters can creep in there and > > > I guess skulk around for a few hours waiting for Harry to show > > up and grab the prophecy, then why couldn't they have used the > > same circumstances for Voldemort to slip in, get the prophecy, > > and get out with no one being the wiser. *************************** Yes, LV went to the MoM knowing that the prophesy was smashed -(Harry can feel these things). And Yes, LV went there without knowing DD was there. The DE didn't have to be there for hours, however. LV misused Harry's "dream-like" experience to think Sirius was taken those hours ago, but the DE only had to appear after DA arrived. I think the statues moved by DD's instructions, not as a security measure. LV stayed around to kill either DD, Harry or both. Remember that one of LV weapons was Harry himself. aussie From drednort at alphalink.com.au Wed Aug 27 08:51:01 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:51:01 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: King's Cross Station In-Reply-To: References: <1d8.fe82770.2c7d4c50@aol.com> Message-ID: <3F4CFD95.6538.329A6C@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 78940 On 27 Aug 2003 at 1:14, Wanda Sherratt wrote: > It's a very interesting point, but how widespread is the knowledge > about her being buried at King's Cross Station? I've heard of > Boadicea, but I'd never heard of this detail about her last resting > place. Is this commonly known in Britain? It could just be a > coincidence - I honestly can't see how she could figure into the HP > stories. It's reasonably well known - more commonly known is the tradition that Boadicea's last battle took place near the site of King's Cross station. Indeed, if you check a map of London, and look just a little north of King's Cross station, you'll see Battle Bridge - today it's a road, but it was Bridge over the Fleet before the Fleet was built over, and it's the traditional site of the battle (it may have been the real site - this is a point of some contention among historians but unlike some traditional sites, this one is actually possible). Basically some people assume she died in her last battle and was buried at the place she fell - in which case, it's not impossible she could have been buried under the current location of King's Cross Station - actually pinning it down to a particular platform is not incredibly reasonable. I ran a Harry Potter game based around Boadicea at a roleplaying convention at Easter, so looked into all of this then. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From naama2486 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 09:49:15 2003 From: naama2486 at yahoo.com (Naama) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:49:15 -0000 Subject: Where is Snape???? In-Reply-To: <169.231594fc.2c7d3e5f@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78941 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/22/2003 3:38:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > princesspeaette at y... writes: > > > >Oooh - here's a horrid. PETTIGREW KNOWS about Snape's spying... > > >Look out Sevvie!!!!!!!!! > > > > > > How would he know that? > > We don't KNOW that he does - but as a member of the original Order of the > Phoenix, there's every chance that he DOES. If he does, no amount of Occlumency > is going to save Sev... > > Sherrie I disagree completely. If Pettigrew knew about Snape, so would Sirius. Sirius didn't even know Snape was a DE to begin with, so how could he know about Snape spying after LV? And Snape wasn't in the picture Mad-Eye showed Harry - if he was, Harry would have recognised him for sure. More likely, Dumbledore kept the information about Snape to himself, both out of respect for Snape (can't see how he would like his Hogwarts enemies to know) and because he suspected a member of the order had double-crossed him, and if LV knew he would have killed Snape long long ago. --Naama, who was *so* sure she was finally going to find out what Snape was up to in book 5. From deemarie1a at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 10:53:38 2003 From: deemarie1a at yahoo.com (Donna) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:53:38 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78942 Okay! Okay! Enough already about Harry being gay. We really won't know until we hear it from JKR. It is wonderful to debate these points, but we have no canon to support that. Harry thought Bill was cool because having grown up in the Muggle world he thought the way Bill dressed and wore his hair he would fit in at a rock concert (definately a Muggle thing). IMO, if being gay were a theme in these stories, there would have been more talk of gay relationships. I think it is high time we got back to the original thread. The SHIPs between the characters. D - who is perfectly prepared to get "blasted" by other listies for what she just said. Forgive me if I have been rude. Believe me, I am not homophobic, I have gay friends. From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 11:05:35 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:05:35 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78943 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fawkes970" > > wrote: > > > In the fifth book, ... "... I know you did Mark Evans two nights > > > ago --" - > > > > > As we all know well by now, JK is not one to throw words around. ... > > > Any thoughts on this one? > > > > > > ~Pat(fawkes) > > > > > > > Well, one quick note: Mark Evans is 10 years old. Therefore, he may > > show up as a first year in Hogwarts next book, which would give us > > plenty of opportunity to find out of any relation to Lily, and also > > give Dudley cause for concern... > > > > --Arcum > > > bboy_mn: > > People, people... while I concede that the Mark Evans character is a > bit suspicious, we must remember that the Dursleys are the ONLY blood > relatives that Harry has. > > Now it could be possible that if you went back up the Lily Evans > family tree several generations and came down a completely different > branch, you might find Mark Evans, but he would be a very very very > distant relative of Harry's. So distant that Harry could probably > marry Mark's sister without any problems. > The only way we can know for sure is to read the next two books and > see if it is explained. > > In closing, the Mark Evans character really is a bit suspicious, but > at the moment, I'm thinking JKR just put him in there to drive us > obssessed fans nuts. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn My Humble theory is that Mark will be introduced in the next book as a means to explain Lily's family, where the magic comes in to the Evans family such as great-great grandma, and why Petunia is jealous that she did not inheret the magic gene. Agree that Mark Evans is a very distant cousin which could be the reason Petunia doesn't know him. Fran From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 11:10:04 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:10:04 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: <3F4BD2C2.7000707@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78944 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > > maneelyfh wrote: > > > > And who was the one who had the dementors dliver the kiss to Crouch > > without questioning? None other than Fudge himself! Makes things > > nice and tidy for there being less evidence of LV being back! > > fran > > > > > Fudge didn't order it. The Dementor did it on its own or most likely on > LV's orders. LV is the one who is really controlling the dementors, no > matter how much Fudge fooled himself into thinking the MOM could control > them. > > Jazmyn By bringing the dementor into the castle, he as good as ordered it. Fudge needing protection is a coverup. Protection at Hogwarts, come on!!!! Fran From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 27 11:10:51 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:10:51 -0000 Subject: King's Cross Station In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78945 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, MadameSSnape at a... wrote: > > In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:36:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > EnsTren at a... writes: > > > > > In a message dated 8/25/2003 9:13:41 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > > > jazmyn at p... writes: > > > > > > >"THE "WARRIOR QUEEN" UNDER PLATFORM 9 > > > >Boudica, or Boadicea, was a British queen who went to war > against the > > > >Roman settlers. She destroyed the city of Londinium. She is > said to be > > > >buried under platform 9 or 10 of King's Cross Station." > > > > > > > > > > I'm wrackign my brain here and I seem to recall something about > Boudica > > > being > > > involved in the authoritian myth. I just don't remember how. > > > > Actually, she lived some four centuries before the historical > Artorius, & > > about 1000 years before the (usual) setting of the legendary Arthur > > It's a very interesting point, but how widespread is the knowledge > about her being buried at King's Cross Station? I've heard of > Boadicea, but I'd never heard of this detail about her last resting > place. Is this commonly known in Britain? It could just be a > coincidence - I honestly can't see how she could figure into the HP > stories. > > Wanda Boudicca is in my top 5 of Brits to be emulated; pity she lost. Anyway, the Kings Cross burial is folk legend. It is known that her army marched in pursuit of Suetonius 'towards the west or north-west' after sacking St Albans and London and met the XIV Legion, strengthened by elements of the XX, plus auxiliary troops. There was a delay because Suetonius waited for troops marching from Wales. The eventual battle is thought to have been fought around High Cross on Watling Street, a considerable distance from London for an army mostly on foot. She escaped after the defeat and is thought to have tried to return to the tribal heartland. Legend states that she took poison when she realised what a defeat on this scale would mean. (The tribe was deliberately subjected to offically approved extinction, the few survivors sold into slavery.) Her burial place was never found, even though the Romans searched for it. Most think it highly unlikey that her body would be smuggled back to London and buried just outside the Roman fortifications. Kneasy From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 27 11:14:56 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:14:56 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78946 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fawkes970" > > wrote: > > > In the fifth book, ... "... I know you did Mark Evans two nights > > > ago --" - > > > > > As we all know well by now, JK is not one to throw words around. ... > > > Any thoughts on this one? > > > > > > ~Pat(fawkes) > > > > > Arcum: > > Well, one quick note: Mark Evans is 10 years old. Therefore, he may > > show up as a first year in Hogwarts next book, which would give us > > plenty of opportunity to find out of any relation to Lily, and also > > give Dudley cause for concern... > > > > --Arcum > > bboy_mn: > > People, people... while I concede that the Mark Evans character is a > bit suspicious, we must remember that the Dursleys are the ONLY blood > relatives that Harry has. > > Now it could be possible that if you went back up the Lily Evans > family tree several generations and came down a completely different > branch, you might find Mark Evans, but he would be a very very very > distant relative of Harry's. So distant that Harry could probably > marry Mark's sister without any problems. > > More important, as some one already pointed out, Evans is an extremely > common Welsh (is that right, Welsh??) name; one of the most common > Welsh names. > > In addition, coming up with character names is not as easy as you > might think. If you have ever written fiction then you know what I > mean; it is a very difficult task to come up with names that fit > characters. So, JKR re-using a few first and last names is not > unreasonable and could be purely coincidental. > > The only way we can know for sure is to read the next two books and > see if it is explained. > > In closing, the Mark Evans character really is a bit suspicious, but > at the moment, I'm thinking JKR just put him in there to drive us > obssessed fans nuts. > > Just a thought. Geoff: This question has cropped up about six times since 21/06/03 and if you search, you may get more information. I only realised that Mark Evans'name might have a significance about three weeks ago and on searching for the name got given a list of about 150 posts! (allowing for Yahoo!'s rather quirky search engine! Evans is a common name in Wales and also in England because of assimilation. However, that doesn't rule out the possibility. When you speak of blood relatives, how wide do you take your family tree? I recently met up with relatives for the first time who are linked via my paternal grandparents. I wouldn't consider them to be /close/ relatives. With a situation involving an orphaned child, I think the family would look at aunts and uncles, first cousins etc. and not cast the net wider. Like everyone on the group, I await the arrival of HP6 and HP7 with increasing anticipation!!! From mkeller01 at alltel.net Wed Aug 27 11:19:33 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:19:33 -0000 Subject: Harry's looks (was Harry's sexual preference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78947 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > > <<<"Geoff Bannister" wrote:...not being a handsome, debonair and > > athletic (ie a Harry Potter type) didn't help...>>> > > > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > > > Now, Harry may not be gay, but no way is he "handsome, debonair and > > athletic". Harry is a scrawny little Everyman. He can fly, sure, > but > > he's not really athletic, he's not debonair (or we wouldn't be > having > > this debate) and canon nowhere describes him as 'handsome', or he > > wouldn't be so relatable (yeah, that's a word; made it up myself.) > > > > --JDR > > Geoff: > > Sorry, I think my wording my have misled.... I think you picked up > the exact opposite to what I was trying to say. > > When I wrote "not being a handsome...." I meant the WHOLE phrase to > refer to a Harry type, ie he isn't handsome or debonair... which is > why I relate myself at that age to him. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > > <<<"Geoff Bannister" wrote:...not being a handsome, debonair and > > athletic (ie a Harry Potter type) didn't help...>>> > > > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > > > Now, Harry may not be gay, but no way is he "handsome, debonair and > > athletic". Harry is a scrawny little Everyman. He can fly, sure, > but > > he's not really athletic, he's not debonair (or we wouldn't be > having > > this debate) and canon nowhere describes him as 'handsome', or he > > wouldn't be so relatable (yeah, that's a word; made it up myself.) > > > > --JDR > > Geoff: > > Sorry, I think my wording my have misled.... I think you picked up > the exact opposite to what I was trying to say. > > When I wrote "not being a handsome...." I meant the WHOLE phrase to > refer to a Harry type, ie he isn't handsome or debonair... which is > why I relate myself at that age to him. Just had to throw this in: The Boston Globe, Oct. 18th, 1999 JKR: "Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has his father and mother's good looks. But he has his mother's eyes and that's very important in a future book." I happened across this a few weeks ago. Sounds like he's more of a cutie pie than we may have thought. Toad (Who thinks Harry could look like Crabbe or Goyle and still be just as lovable.) From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 27 11:22:09 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:22:09 -0000 Subject: Question about James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78948 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "queenofeverythang" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fawkes970" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christy" > > > wrote: > > > Hi y'all, > > > > > > I have a question that I haven't been able to find an answes > to, and > > > was wondering if somebody could give me either an answer > or a place > > to > > > check (other than the Lexicon, which I have checked). > > > > > > Do we know or have any idea if James' family was one of the > pure > > > blooded wizard families? I know that there's been almost no > > reference > > > to them in the books, but I've been considering some things, > and was > > > wondering if there was a consensus about this. And so far > have found > > > nothing to indicate one way or the other. Am I missing > something? > > > > > > > > Well Christy: Comments about purebloods and mudbloods > have led me to > > beleive that James is infact pure blood: this is because when > people > > tunr on Harry and refer to Lily as a mudblood, nobody ever > uses James > > either: My question is how harry is a half-blood? if his mother > and > > father were both indeed with+wizard, why wouldnt they start a > pure > > blood generation? any comments? > > > > "Pat (fawkes)" > > I think the point is that purists in the WW consider "mudbloods" > to be less than wizards/witches - since Harry is half wizard and > half "mudblood" he is a half-blood wizard. It may be ridiculous, > but it's exactly how we deal with race identity (definitely in > America). Harry is likened to a 'mulatto'. It doesn't matter that Lily > was a witch, she was still the child of two muggles - And as far > as Harry is concerned it only takes a drop of muggle blood to be > considered unpure, and he's got much more than a drop. > > -> QoE - who thinks that JkR has a lot of issues bubbling (not so > far) under the surface of these very entertaining books about > magic ; ) Small note: The Lexicon does say that Harry is half-blood, with a muggle-born witch mother, and a wizard father. It's under the new section of Blood Status. Not that it's going to help you find out about James' parents, which I was hoping it would. But it at least answers this one question. James' family had to be a wizarding family because it states that James is a wizard not a half-blood. Lori From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 11:32:59 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:32:59 -0000 Subject: Book Six Titles/ Release of book 6 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78949 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "phluxist" wrote: > I came across a little snip at another HP website, and I thought I'd > pass it along here: > > On July 24th a company by the name of "Seabottom Productions > Limited" registered two trademarks by the names of "Harry Potter and > the Mudblood Revolt" and "Harry Potter and the Quest of the > Centaur". This company must be related to WB, since the HP trademark > is now their property. > > I'm sure everyone has heard of the other book titles like "Harry > Potter and the Alchemist's Cell", "Harry Potter and the Pyramids of > Furmat", or "Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light", which were all > patented just before the release of GoF, in 2000. > -Phlux Hmmmm, could this possible mean that the release of book 6 will be sooner than 2 or 3 years? Possible next year? Fran From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 27 11:46:00 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 11:46:00 -0000 Subject: Harry's looks (was Harry's sexual preference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78950 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" wrote: > > > Just had to throw this in: > > The Boston Globe, Oct. 18th, 1999 > > JKR: "Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has his > father and mother's good looks. But he has his mother's eyes and > that's very important in a future book." > > I happened across this a few weeks ago. Sounds like he's more of a > cutie pie than we may have thought. > > Toad (Who thinks Harry could look like Crabbe or Goyle and still be > just as lovable.) Geoff: Yes, but you can have good looks without being "dishy" if that word is still fashionable. I don't see Harry as the sort to turn heads on a beach. And, there again, despite the quote from JKR, look at her descriptions of Harry: PS: ...but Harry had always been small and skinny for his age.... Harry had a thin face, knobbly knees, black hair and bright green eyes. He wore round glasses.... COS: Harry looked nothing like the rest of the family.... Harry, on the other hand, was small and skinny with brilliant green eyes and jet black hair that was always untidy. He wore round glasses.... POA: Harry, though small and skinny for his age, had grown a few inches over the last year. His jet-black hair, however, was just as it had always been: stubbornly untidy, whatever he did to it. The eyes behind his glasses were bright green...... GOF: Harry.... peered into the mirror on the inside of the door. A skinny boy of fourteen looked back at him, his bright green eyes puzzled under his untidy black hair. OOTP: He was a skinny,black-haired bespectacled boy who had the pinched, slightly unhealthy look of someone who has grown a lot in a short space of time. Not quite in the cutie pie category but likeable. Like many of us. I'm glad some heroes are a bit like me and not clones of Arnie or Leonardo di C. I can identify more easily. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 27 12:09:57 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:09:57 -0000 Subject: Mark Evans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78951 Kirstini heaves herself once more into the (Mark Evans) breach with a sigh. Steve wrote: >>People, people... while I concede that the Mark Evans character is a bit suspicious, we must remember that the Dursleys are the ONLY blood relatives that Harry has.>> Now, I *think* (at work just now so can't check) I remember noticing that DD actually said to Harry that *Petunia* was his only blood relation. No mention of Dudley. So we can either come up with some wonderfully high falutin' scheme whereby Dudley is really the love child of Cornelius Fudge and Mrs Goyle, or we can assume that this is a statment along the lines of Hagrid's "there wasn't a wizard who went bad who wasn't in Slytherin." i.e, vague and perhaps even deliberately misleading. Apologies if I'm wrong about that one. Anyway, back to Steve. >>In addition, coming up with character names is not as easy as you might think. If you have ever written fiction then you know what I mean; it is a very difficult task to come up with names that fit characters. So, JKR re-using a few first and last names is not unreasonable and could be purely coincidental.>> Mmm. I'll accept that there is no link between, say Ernie Prang and Ernie MacMillan. Even that Sturgis Podmore probably isn't the desendant of Sir Patrick Podmore Delany. Well, I might. The thing is, pre-OoP, *we* only knew that Lily's surname was Evans because we obsessively re-read transcripts of JKR interviews hoping for new clues. Lily's surname was practically gospel on list. However, I would imagine it was a fact that passed the average reader by. (In fact, I know it did. My friends looked at me funny when I mentioned it while we were queueing for our copies of OoP. Then they began to back away slowly.) Therefore, the average reader, discovering in "Snape's Worst Memory" that Harry's mum's surname was Evans, might just make a tiny mental connection: "Evans, hang on. Haven't I read that name somewhere recently?" It's a slightly different situation from the other examples of doubled names used. The other doubles haven't been in the same books, for a start . Lily's surname is something the reader is made to wait for. It's given build up in the book, presented as a small mystery. What does the "L.E" that James is doodling mean? Have you been paying attention at the back there? And while it's in character that cocky wee Prongs would call the girl he fancies by her surname, it's not essential to the plot. It's a roundabout way of letting the reader know her surname, and it calls too much attention to itself. More Steve: >> The only way we can know for sure is to read the next two books and see if it is explained.>> B_Boy! I'm ashamed of you! Call yourself a listie? When have we *ever* bothered to leave it up to JKR when our own speculation is so much more satisfying? . >> In closing, the Mark Evans character really is a bit suspicious, but at the moment, I'm thinking JKR just put him in there to drive us obssessed fans nuts.>> Well, yeah. There is that. And it's working, darn her. Kirstini From mkeller01 at alltel.net Wed Aug 27 12:21:59 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:21:59 -0000 Subject: Harry's looks (was Harry's sexual preference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78952 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" > wrote: > > > > > > > > > Just had to throw this in: > > > > The Boston Globe, Oct. 18th, 1999 > > > > JKR: "Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has > his > > father and mother's good looks. But he has his mother's eyes and > > that's very important in a future book." > > > > I happened across this a few weeks ago. Sounds like he's more of a > > cutie pie than we may have thought. > > > > Toad (Who thinks Harry could look like Crabbe or Goyle and still be > > just as lovable.) > > Geoff: > Yes, but you can have good looks without being "dishy" if that word > is still fashionable. I don't see Harry as the sort to turn heads on > a beach. > > And, there again, despite the quote from JKR, look at her > descriptions of Harry: > > PS: ...but Harry had always been small and skinny for his age.... > Harry had a thin face, knobbly knees, black hair and bright green > eyes. He wore round glasses.... > > COS: Harry looked nothing like the rest of the family.... Harry, on > the other hand, was small and skinny with brilliant green eyes and > jet black hair that was always untidy. He wore round glasses.... > > POA: Harry, though small and skinny for his age, had grown a few > inches over the last year. His jet-black hair, however, was just as > it had always been: stubbornly untidy, whatever he did to it. The > eyes behind his glasses were bright green...... > > GOF: Harry.... peered into the mirror on the inside of the door. A > skinny boy of fourteen looked back at him, his bright green eyes > puzzled under his untidy black hair. > > OOTP: He was a skinny,black-haired bespectacled boy who had the > pinched, slightly unhealthy look of someone who has grown a lot in a > short space of time. Wow! Rather wicked quick with the quotes, aren't you? Yes. I thought JKR's comment rather condradictory to what she's written in the books myself. But, there you have it. Perhaps in a year or two he'll, uh, blossom into a good looking young man. > Not quite in the cutie pie category but likeable. Like many of us. > I'm glad some heroes are a bit like me and not clones of Arnie or > Leonardo di C. I can identify more easily. Having always being identified as the "unattractive" daughter, I'm with you. I was actually a little disappointed when I read that quote. And confused. Toad (Who still loves Harry no matter what he looks like.) From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 12:30:45 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:30:45 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78953 Hopefully I won't be getting too deep into the time travel theories this time... :-) Talisman wrote: >1) Even if time travel ultimately results in a single, albeit >modified, reality, I maintain that you have to be functional to >initiate the cycle. >A soul-sucked Harry could not initiate the time travel that would >create the one, seamless, unsucked reality you envision. >Ergo, either Hermione is going to fail 2/3 of her classes >(If choosing to go to Arithmancy modified the earlier choice >to go to Divination, there would be no benefit to the time >turner.), or, if someone else didn't save Harry, you've >always got a soul-sucked Harry experience to deal with. I (Laurasia) respond: Not necessarily. Your premise that we are always stuck with a soul-sucked Harry unless someone else saves him relies on one thing- that there has to be a `first time' that time occurs in which no-one has gone back in time. That is- because you believe that Time happens multiple times and that Time-Turner!Harry is only present in the second existence, therefore it follows that someone else *had* to have saved him in order for him to live to go back... This is a great theory- except that Time doesn't have to function multiple times. Instead of thinking about Time occurring many times over, think about time only ever happening once. You don't have to be stuck with a soul-sucked Harry. Harry can save himself, can't he??? I agree that soul-sucked Harry can't turn over the time-turner and go back in time to un-soul-suck himself. However, if there is no `first time' for time, (that is- time occurs only once) then there is no need for `Harry to be saved the first time to go back and save himself the second time' because there is no second time... To help you understand what I'm saying here are three different takes on the Time-Travel sequence in PoA. I'm just trying to show that *it is* possible for Harry to save himself so that there is no need for "someone else" (eg Snape) to save him. Time-Travel Theory #1: When you turn over the time-turner you `rewind' time back to a certain point and then relive those hours, except there are two version of you in it. In this version of time-travel there becomes a `loop.' That is to say- every time Harry and Hermione get to the hospital wing they go back 3 hours in time to eventually arrive back at the hospital wing to hear themselves going back in time... and then *this* H+H go back in time where it all gets repeated... In this kind of reality there is definitely a `first time' in which there was no-one who had gone back in time. For this kind of time-travel to work in PoA someone else needs to have saved Harry- as, like you said, he needs to be alive to go back in time for the second and all consecutive times. This thread originally was suggesting Snape. There are other theories which suggest Lupin, James Potter, Dumbledore... etc. Time Travel Theory #2: When you turn over the time-tuner you get transported into a parallel dimension where that time has not yet occurred. There are two version of yourself in this version of reality and each dimension acts independently of each other- that is, what you do in one doesn't affect what happens in the other. In this version of time-travel there becomes a `step.' That is to say- every time Harry and Hermione get to the hospital wing they go to another dimension where the 3 preceding hours have not yet happened. They eventually arrive back in the hospital wing to hear the parallel dimension versions of themselves being transported to another dimension where the preceding 3 hours have yet to happen... and then *this* H+H go to another parallel dimension when it all gets repeated- -- except not on the same time-axis, but on an infinite number all running parallel to one another (hence the step) etc etc etc. In this kind of reality there is also a `first time' in which there was no- one who had gone back in time. For this kind of Time-travel to work in PoA someone else needs to have saved Harry- as, as above, he needs to be alive to go back in time the second and all consecutive times. Time-Travel Theory #3: When you turn over the time-turner you get transported back in time. Time has not moved backwards, rather *you* have been transported through it. Time occurs only once; it's only people that can experience it more than once. In this version of time-travel there is no loop or step- time occurred only once in a continuous and straight line. That is to say- Harry and Hermione are in the hospital wing only once. They *actually* *go* *back* *in* *time* to 3 hours previously. They eventually arrive back in the hospital wing for the _only_ time to hear the people they used to be 3 hours ago leaving to go back in time. This H+H have, naturally, have already gone back in time- they're standing right there outside the door waiting to come back inside. In this kind of reality there in *NO* `first time' in which no-one went back in time. There was only *ONE* time. For this kind of time-travel to work in PoA there is *NO* *NEED* for someone else to save Harry except himself. So, you see, there need not necessarily have been a `first time.' Therefore, it is entirely possible that Harry really did save himself. Okay, so I wasn't trying to discount your theory- you are still free to accept that there is a `first time' time-travel thing happening. I was just trying to show that it isn't the only plausible theory. IMO I think it's a *more* plausible theory, however, I've been sucked into this debate one too many times :-D ~<(Laurasia)>~ From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 12:30:29 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:30:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's looks (was Harry's sexual preference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78954 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just had to throw this in: > > > > > > The Boston Globe, Oct. 18th, 1999 > > > > > > JKR: "Yes. I've even drawn a picture of how they look. Harry has > > his > > > father and mother's good looks. But he has his mother's eyes and > > > that's very important in a future book." > > > > > > I happened across this a few weeks ago. Sounds like he's more > of a > > > cutie pie than we may have thought. > > > > > > Toad (Who thinks Harry could look like Crabbe or Goyle and still > be > > > just as lovable.) > > > > Geoff: > > Yes, but you can have good looks without being "dishy" if that > word > > is still fashionable. I don't see Harry as the sort to turn heads > on > > a beach. > > > > And, there again, despite the quote from JKR, look at her > > descriptions of Harry: > > > > PS: ...but Harry had always been small and skinny for his age.... > > Harry had a thin face, knobbly knees, black hair and bright green > > eyes. He wore round glasses.... > > > > COS: Harry looked nothing like the rest of the family.... Harry, > on > > the other hand, was small and skinny with brilliant green eyes and > > jet black hair that was always untidy. He wore round glasses.... > > > > POA: Harry, though small and skinny for his age, had grown a few > > inches over the last year. His jet-black hair, however, was just > as > > it had always been: stubbornly untidy, whatever he did to it. The > > eyes behind his glasses were bright green...... > > > > GOF: Harry.... peered into the mirror on the inside of the door. A > > skinny boy of fourteen looked back at him, his bright green eyes > > puzzled under his untidy black hair. > > > > OOTP: He was a skinny,black-haired bespectacled boy who had the > > pinched, slightly unhealthy look of someone who has grown a lot in > a > > short space of time. > > Wow! Rather wicked quick with the quotes, aren't you? > > Yes. I thought JKR's comment rather condradictory to what she's > written in the books myself. But, there you have it. Perhaps in a > year or two he'll, uh, blossom into a good looking young man. > > > > Not quite in the cutie pie category but likeable. Like many of us. > > I'm glad some heroes are a bit like me and not clones of Arnie or > > Leonardo di C. I can identify more easily. > > Having always being identified as the "unattractive" daughter, I'm > with you. I was actually a little disappointed when I read that > quote. And confused. > > Toad (Who still loves Harry no matter what he looks like.) In GoF, Rita described him as having a charming face during the weighing of the wands. I think the above descriptions are how Harry see's himself. Just a thought. Severus "always been a pretty boy" Snape From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 27 12:34:18 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:34:18 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78955 Donna wrote: >> Okay! Okay! Enough already about Harry being gay. We really won't know until we hear it from JKR. It is wonderful to debate these points, but we have no canon to support that.>> Donna, a little suggestion. If you don't find this sort of discussion entertaining, or relevant to your own personal reading, don't read the posts headed "Harry's sexual preference" Clearly there are people on list who *do* enjoy this sort of "wonderful" speculation and who *do* feel that they have canon for potential homosexual interpretation. There are more than ten thousand people on this list, and not all of them will discuss topics you find interesting, feasible, or relevant. My advice is not to read or contribute to threads that don't interest you. >>Harry thought Bill was cool because having grown up in the Muggle world he thought the way Bill dressed and wore his hair he would fit in at a rock concert (definately a Muggle thing). IMO, if being gay were a theme in these stories, there would have been more talk of gay relationships.>> But the narrative itself doesn't say this, exactly. It just says that Harry thought Bill was cool, then describes what he was wearing. It leaves all possible motivation open. It's open-ended canon. What your version of events above shows is that you have placed your own interpretation of Harry's actions onto this particular piece of canon. Other people obviously interpret this differently. That's why this is a *discussion* group, rather than a lot of people sitting around posting "Me too" onto the end of threads (actually, hang on a minute...). >> I think it is high time we got back to the original thread. The SHIPs between the characters.>> Donna, this thread says "Harry's sexual preference", not "SHIPs between the characters". Besides, what people have been doing is offering canon for reasons why they think a Harry/Bill ship is possible in canon. Harry and Bill are characters. There are usually about twenty active threads on the go at any given time at this list. Why not start a new one called "Heterosexual SHIPping", if that's what you want to discuss? >>Forgive me if I have been rude. Believe me, I am not homophobic, I have gay friends.>> That's nice. Now, can we get back to the original thread? Kirstini From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 12:52:29 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 12:52:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's looks (was Harry's sexual preference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78956 > Geoff: > Yes, but you can have good looks without being "dishy" if that word > is still fashionable. I don't see Harry as the sort to turn heads on > a beach. > > And, there again, despite the quote from JKR, look at her > descriptions of Harry: > > PS: ...but Harry had always been small and skinny for his age.... > Harry had a thin face, knobbly knees, black hair and bright green > eyes. He wore round glasses.... > > COS: Harry looked nothing like the rest of the family.... Harry, on > the other hand, was small and skinny with brilliant green eyes and > jet black hair that was always untidy. He wore round glasses.... > > POA: Harry, though small and skinny for his age, had grown a few > inches over the last year. His jet-black hair, however, was just as > it had always been: stubbornly untidy, whatever he did to it. The > eyes behind his glasses were bright green...... > > GOF: Harry.... peered into the mirror on the inside of the door. A > skinny boy of fourteen looked back at him, his bright green eyes > puzzled under his untidy black hair. > > OOTP: He was a skinny,black-haired bespectacled boy who had the > pinched, slightly unhealthy look of someone who has grown a lot in a > short space of time. > > Not quite in the cutie pie category but likeable. Like many of us. > I'm glad some heroes are a bit like me and not clones of Arnie or > Leonardo di C. I can identify more easily. Ffi here, On the short'n'skinny front - I think Harry is, or is going to be, quite tall - james is always described as being tall and Harry's within an inch in height of him (as Harry notes in Snape's memory) - and also, the length of Harry's wand is akin to james's - can't remember exactly what it is - something like 9.5 inches - and since the length of the wand is akin to the height of a wzard (Ron's is about 11 and Hagrid 16inches), then we can assume he's at least tall! Ffi From tammy at mauswerks.net Wed Aug 27 13:02:15 2003 From: tammy at mauswerks.net (Tammy Rizzo) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:02:15 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Is Anybody There? (a filk) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F4C7397.13456.81F29CB@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 78957 On 27 Aug 2003 at 4:43, Haggridd wrote: > I thought I was finished with the musical 1776, but this one cried out > to be written. It is a filk of the song "Is anybody there?" from the > musical, and bears the same title. > > It is dedicated to filk mavens everywhere. Oooooh! Haggridd, that was wonderful! I don't usually reply to filks, but I had to respond to this one. I got shivers. For one thing, I love the musical, '1776', and am very familiar with the song you used. It usually brings the prickle of tears to my eyes. Your filk did, as well -- it seemed to illuminate the mood quite clearly, and brought back to my mind Harry's anguish. Thank you. *** Tammy tammy at mauswerks.net From mkeller01 at alltel.net Wed Aug 27 13:10:16 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:10:16 -0000 Subject: Harry's looks (was Harry's sexual preference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78958 > In GoF, Rita described him as having a charming face during the > weighing of the wands. I think the above descriptions are how Harry > see's himself. Just a thought. > > Severus "always been a pretty boy" Snape > In GoF, Rita described him as having a charming face during the > weighing of the wands. I think the above descriptions are how Harry > see's himself. Just a thought. > > Severus "always been a pretty boy" Snape Charming face--sounds like a kind way of saying "unattractive." Pansy seems to think Harry isn't all that good looking (of course, she was probably just being nasty.) Actually, I was looking forward to more of a description of how Harry changed phyically at the end of OotP. One of the centaurs describes Harry as nearing manhood. Did he shoot up a couple of inches? Has his voice changed? I'm sure we'll find out fairly early in book six (describes himself in a mirror, has to buy new robes etc.) > Severus "always been a pretty boy" Snape Uh, yeah. Toad (who thinks maybe JKR just happens to find skinny, short and knobbly kneed people good looking.) From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 13:18:16 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:18:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's age In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030826234649.00aec218@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78959 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth wrote: > At 03:01 AM 8/27/2003 +0000, severusbook4 wrote: > >I read in a post a few weeks back that JKR (in interview) had said DD's > >age was around > >150, and since I am re-reading GoF I noticed what Hermione says about the > >judges. > >Hermione says to H & R "because all three of them were injured in the > >Tournament of > >1792, when a cokatrice...", if this statement is true (it was in > >"Hogwarts, A History") > >and the first book took place in 1990, then DD is well over 202 years old, > >and so are > >Madame Maxine, and Karkaroff. I don't know if this has been posted and if > >it has, > >sorry for the repeat. It seems JKR has a way of contradicting > >herself. Thought you > >should know. Also, I don't know if it could be a red herring of some sort. > > OK...If I understand you correctly you are saying that all the current > judges were injured in 1792. I think you may misunderstand. Hermione is > reading from a history book that states the three headmasters (from 1792) > were injured. Remember, DD has only been headmaster for 30-50 years > (depending on which contentions you go off of...I'm assuming that 50 yrs > ago Dippet was headmaster so DD wasn't and that DD was headmaster when > Lupin, who is 40ish, was admitted to Hogwarts). > > Anyway, my guess is that you were reading this too carefully and > misunderstood what was actually being stated.... Well, Harry or Ron were asking who the judges were going to be, and Hermione replied that the heads of the three schools, because they all were injured during the Tourney of 1792, when a cockatrice that they were trying to capture went on a rampage. Not exact but really close. So how am I to read this? Hermione is(in my take) saying all three of the current heads were champions and were injured during a task. It makes sense, DD, Karky, and Maxime would have been competitors, not the judges. Hagrid is now 66 now, since he was 13, 50 years ago in book 2. DD was still looking very young at that time. I must admit the wording is strange, but there are not many ways to interpret it. We know DD is over 100, why not over 200? This seems to be one of the few clues as to his age. The high amount of deaths and injuries are the reason that the Triwizard was stopped in the first place. So why not some of the last champions as the new founders / judges? Did DD attend Hogwarts and who was Head then? Just a thought. Severus From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 27 13:29:11 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:29:11 -0000 Subject: Harry's looks (was Harry's sexual preference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78960 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > > > In GoF, Rita described him as having a charming face during the > weighing of the wands. I think the above descriptions are how Harry > see's himself. Just a thought. > > Severus "always been a pretty boy" Snape To be quite accurate, it was the Quick-Quotes Quill which wrote that; how far it has a mind of its own may be debatable (anyone see where it keeps its brain?). It might also be interesting to remember what it wrote about its owner when on a "test run"! But, if Rita Skeeter or a piece of her baggage started to describe me in that way, I think I would be running out of the room looking for the nearest exit. Geoff From annemehr at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 13:34:22 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:34:22 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78961 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > Second in PoA, the dementors left their posts to invade the > Quidditch match and they seemed very interested in Harry, they were > all looking up at him, no one else. Did they do this at Fudge's > request? We think so. > > Third in PoA, the dementors try to administer the kiss to Harry and > perhaps to Hermione I have a little pet theory on the behavior of the dementors that I haven't mentioned since before OoP came out. It would give an alternative explanation to your points above, so here goes. I think the dementor that searched the Hogwarts Express found Harry *very* interesting. After all, Harry was the only one who fainted on a train carrying the entire student population of Hogwarts; even Ginny and Neville were not so affected. At the Quidditch match, there was Harry, not only far out on the grounds but in high emotion, for the first time since school began. That dementor from the train got a "whiff" of him along with the excitement arising from everyone else and just followed his "nose." The other dementors came along -- after all, if one was going, they weren't going to miss out, and then they too focussed on the fainting boy. Finally, after Lupin transformed into a werewolf and there were once again people out with high emotions, under cover of darkness yet, and Sirius Black himself right out near the lake, of course the dementors investigated. And then *one* dementor closed in for the kiss. It ignored the escaped convict, who was after all probably the least interesting wizard ever to inhabit Azkaban, for something much more satisfying. It wanted that absolutely *delicious* young Harry Potter, who faints in the presence of a single dementor, to incorporate his soul into itself for all time. That dementor is still out there, somewhere. Annemehr wondering if the similarity to the croc & Capt. Hook is an argument against this... From jendiangelo at cox.net Wed Aug 27 13:36:06 2003 From: jendiangelo at cox.net (acciosirius) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:36:06 -0000 Subject: Harry's looks (was Harry's sexual preference) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78962 Toad wrote: > Actually, I was looking forward to more of a description of how > Harry changed phyically at the end of OotP. One of the centaurs > describes Harry as nearing manhood. Did he shoot up a couple of > inches? Has his voice changed? I'm sure we'll find out fairly > early in book six (describes himself in a mirror, has to buy new > robes etc.) AccioSirius Jen: Actually, on the first page of OoP, it is said that Harry, "was a skinny, black-haired, bespectacled boy who had the pinched, slightly unhealthy look of someone who has grown a lot in a short space of time." I took that to mean that he had grown quite a bit since he had been back at Privet Drive. I also am guessing that when he sees James in Snape's Worst Memory, he was already well on his way to being tall like James (of course, not as tall as Ron, but still fairly tall). Just my two knuts, probably more like half a knut... AccioSirius Jen From quigonginger at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 13:40:04 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:40:04 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78963 Recent threads have gotten me thinking. I am a member of an invisible minority. We are about 10% of the population, and are found throughout all religions, cultures, and nationalities. Some have tried to change us and make us "normal", but that has toned down in the last generation. I have found no mention of any of us in HP. In fact, there is only one person who is stated as being in the majority. I have always read by putting myself in the position of the characters. So, to me, they are all like me unless the text specificly states otherwise. So, by my calculations, there should be between 28 and 100 (depending on your estimate of the student body) people at Hogwarts, and another 106 on the list who are like me. No one that I have seen has made a big deal out of the lack of my people in the books. In fact, in the realm of literature, it is only brought up if it is crucial to the plot or of the author is one of us. So what do y'all think? Is there a reason that not one of the characters in Harry Potter has been distinguished as being left- handed? My point here: we all see things from our own perspective. We all look for ourselves in books. If we have something that is different from the norm, (by that I mean the *statistical* majority) we look for it specificly. Because that is who we are, and how we see ourselves and our relation to the characters. Ginger, who hates manual can openers. Try it left-handed sometime! BTW, I would be so sad if Harry and Bill ended up together. It would kill my Bill/Remus ship. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 14:05:52 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:05:52 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78964 Severus: > >Well, Harry or Ron were asking who the judges were going to be, and >Hermione replied that the heads of the three schools, because they >all were injured during the Tourney of 1792, when a cockatrice that >they were trying to capture went on a rampage. Not exact but really >close. So how am I to read this? Hermione is(in my take) saying >all three of the current heads were champions and were injured >during a task. It makes sense, DD, Karky, and Maxime would have >been competitors, not the judges. Hagrid is now 66 now, since he >was 13, 50 years ago in book 2. DD was still looking very young at >that time. I must admit the wording is strange, but there are not >many ways to interpret it. We know DD is over 100, why not over >200? This seems to be one of the few clues as to his age. The high >amount of deaths and injuries are the reason that the Triwizard was >stopped in the first place. So why not some of the last champions >as the new founders / judges? Did DD attend Hogwarts and who was >Head then? Just a thought. While I'm willing to admit that Dumbledore *may* be over 200 (I really doubt it though) I don't think there's any way Karkaroff is/was (depending on whether or not Voldemort's found him yet *weg*) When I read that I took it to mean that the people who were the Heads of Durmstrang, Beauxbatons, and Hogwarts *at that time* were injured by the cockatrice. It would fit with the WW sense of tradition, especially surrounding the Triwizard tournament, to make it a tradition for the Heads to be judges after that unfortunate incident. Just a different take on the same information :-) ~Margaret From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 14:16:29 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:16:29 -0000 Subject: Question about James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78965 Lori pointed out: > Small note: The Lexicon does say that Harry is half-blood, with a > muggle-born witch mother, and a wizard father. It's under the new > section of Blood Status. Not that it's going to help you find out > about James' parents, which I was hoping it would. But it at least > answers this one question. James' family had to be a wizarding > family because it states that James is a wizard not a half-blood. Oh... oops, I missed that. But it does help a bit. It also makes me a little more confused. If James' family is in fact a wizarding family then how is it that Harry has no other living relatives? Did LV really kill that many people, and would he kill people that were wizarding families? Ok, maybe a dumb question as he killed James without blinking. What I was wondering though is that if James' family was indeed a wizarding family, and what Sirius has said is true (that is, that wizarding families are very intermixed) shouldn't Harry be related to somebody else? Unless James' parents are mudbloods, which is entirely reasonable. And this has probably been discussed before... But not recently that I'm aware of. Does anybody have anything that could help explain this? Now thoroughly confused... Christy From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 14:36:32 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:36:32 -0000 Subject: Book Six Titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78966 Phlux:" On July 24th a company by the name of "Seabottom Productions Limited" registered two trademarks by the names of "Harry Potter and the Mudblood Revolt" and "Harry Potter and the Quest of the Centaur". This company must be related to WB, since the HP trademark is now their property. I'm sure everyone has heard of the other book titles like "Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell", "Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat", or "Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light", which were all patented just before the release of GoF, in 2000." No way. An attempt to copyright any title in the form of "Harry Potter and.. would be null and void, unenforceable. J.K. Rowling and Warner Brothers, her assignee, would be the only parties who could do that. "Harry Potter" itself is a trademark, and nothing that tried to circumvent that trademark by adding something to it would have any validity at all. A Google search on "Seabottom Productions" turns up nothing outside of undersea exploration and so on. A Web search of the Patent and Trademark Office shows nothing. How would anybody think that this could possibly be true? JKR and Warner Brothers have all the rights to anything Harry Potter, period. Nobody else can use that name or anything based on it for any commercial purpose without WB's consent ($$$). This group exists under its name because discussion of literature and characters is 'fair use' and free speech and doesn't create confusion in the marketplace. Even so, WB tried to muscle in on HP websites and backed off only because they got bad press. Jim Ferer From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 27 14:49:16 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:49:16 +0100 Subject: When Harry met Draco, or Pride and Prejudice (non-SHIP) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78967 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: > > Laura: (clipped) > > You make an interesting point about Hermione. I wonder if she really > understands how deeply the blood issue cuts in the WW. And yeah, the > house elves are like the Russian peasants. They were so far down the > social/economic/educational scale that they couldn't even grasp the > idea of a revolution, especially one on their behalf run by middle > class urban intellectuals. The house elves are so committed to the > system and so self-identified with their owners that they can't see > themselves as oppressed. But you can see how belonging to a social > class that suffers prejudice might make you more likely to be > involved with liberation movements in general-whether the subjects of > the movement have asked for your help is another question. > I strongly suspect that the House Elves are a whole other. So far we have met three individual Elves, each different in attitudes and behaviour and different again from the crowd in Hogwarts kitchens. There's *something* critical that we don't know about them. It's as if there is an unspoken 'given', the way that characters one would expect to be sympathetic to a suffering fellow creature (Hagrid, for example) does not respond to Hermiones campaign. That, of course, will not stop Hermione. She's in automatic mode at the mere mention of an Elf. She probably does see them as the WW equivalent of Russian kulaks, cowering beneath the knout. I think that if things were as bad as she believes, JKR would have given her campaign a boost. But she is alone on her soapbox; even DD doesn't give her support or encouragement. I see an enormous custard pie being stirred by JKRs pen, eventually to leap from a page of a future book, straight between the eyes. The readership are acting (for the most part) as Hermione is. Get ready to duck; in JKRs world, the reader is always wrong. I wonder what will happen when it truly sinks in that she is one of a despised group. I have a feeling that at the moment she is reacting the way she would in Muggledom. She's probably used to resistance to her crusades back there and probably reasons that the resistance in the WW is the same as the apathy she's encountered before. Her bossiness will have created a reaction, including insults, before and she may think that it's business as usual. But it's not. Will she be able to campaign in support of herself? Or does she need to stand at a distance and so remain 'objective'? This is where the discussion on rights vs. self interest/identity might progress to. Verrrrry interesting. > > Harry et al are working their way through their moral development as > well as their physical and intellectual growth. They are now, at the > end of OoP, at the stage where abstract thinking becomes habitual and > conflicts of self-interest vs conscience can loom very large. > (Hermione is farther down the developmental road than Ron or Harry, > obviously.) The goal is to make them one and the same as often as > possible, which avoids painful inner tensions. Harry isn't a > particularly deep kid at this point but his moral sense is coming > along just fine-otherwise he wouldn't have cared what his dad and > Sirius did to Snape. He wouldn't have identified with Snape at all. Self interest and conscience....hmm. Conscience protects society from the self and self interest protects self from society, crudely speaking. Ideally, they shouldn't be in conflict, but the WW is not an ideal society. I predict an increase in the angst index. Eventually, like the rest of us, an accommodation of sorts will be reached, but it will probably be conditional and open to re-assessment. > > I still wonder about Snape. He's an example of someone going against > what appeals to his inner self because he knows it's wrong-Conflict > in a big way. He acts as though he's very uncomfortable around > people from the Order-he seemed more comfortable with Karkaroff and > Quirrell, even if he didn't like them, they were on the same page. > So which will win, Snape's self-identity or his conscience? Tune in > for books 6 & 7... Who doesn't wonder about Snape? I take a different read on it. I still think that all of Snape's actions are based on the personal. To me, he is the embodiment of "My enemies enemy is my friend." The other DEs are of no concern to him, the members of the Order are not the sort of people he would normally mix with, but he needs, is obsessed by, a compulsion to bring Voldemort, *the individual*, down. Hence DDs trust in him. It's a believable, understandable motive for his actions and his position. I've posted repeatedly on the theme but it's like dropping Droobles wrappers into the Grand Canyon - nobody notices. > > last aside to Kneasy-Sorry about the handshake stuff-I realized too > late that you probably weren't being literal. Duh. No apology needed. I belong to the school of "If I've told you once, I've told you a million times; don't exaggerate." Make hyperbole work for you! Kneasy From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Wed Aug 27 14:55:38 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:55:38 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78968 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > Recent threads have gotten me thinking. > > I am a member of an invisible minority. We are about 10% of the > population, and are found throughout all religions, cultures, and > nationalities. Some have tried to change us and make us "normal", > but that has toned down in the last generation. I have found no > mention of any of us in HP. In fact, there is only one person who is > stated as being in the majority. > > I have always read by putting myself in the position of the > characters. So, to me, they are all like me unless the text > specificly states otherwise. So, by my calculations, there should be > between 28 and 100 (depending on your estimate of the student body) > people at Hogwarts, and another 106 on the list who are like me. > > No one that I have seen has made a big deal out of the lack of my > people in the books. In fact, in the realm of literature, it is only > brought up if it is crucial to the plot or of the author is one of us. > > So what do y'all think? Is there a reason that not one of the > characters in Harry Potter has been distinguished as being left- > handed? > > My point here: we all see things from our own perspective. We all > look for ourselves in books. If we have something that is different > from the norm, (by that I mean the *statistical* majority) we look > for it specificly. Because that is who we are, and how we see > ourselves and our relation to the characters. > > Ginger, who hates manual can openers. Try it left-handed sometime! > BTW, I would be so sad if Harry and Bill ended up together. It would > kill my Bill/Remus ship. What odds would you give that Prof. Sinistra is left-handed? You may have a moment of glory yet. Kneasy From meltowne at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 15:17:06 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:17:06 -0000 Subject: Religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78969 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "say543" wrote: > Since religion is basically nonexistent in HP, how was there a St. > Mungo and a Fat Friar? After all, God's miracles wouldn't be too > impressive if you could do the same thing yourself. I don't think religion is non-existant in the WW, just that we don't see it being practiced by any of the major characters. Indeed the existance of the Fat Friar and St. Mungo's would suggest that some wizards and witches are religious. As for wizards performing miracles, I disagree. Dumbledore is very specific in telling Harry that Sirious is gone, as are his parents. While phoenix tears, and perhaps certain spells can bring you back from the brink of death (perhaps at a point whn muggles would consider you already dead), they cannot bring you back from death itself. Even the elixer created with the Philiospher's stone does not confer immortality - it just extends life. Melinda From meltowne at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 15:42:25 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:42:25 -0000 Subject: Prefects (was Re: Dumbledore's Tear) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78970 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > In other words, I'm not surprised that Ron was named prefect (there > were only five boys to pick from), and not concerned that he would > not be at least a candidate for Head Boy. I agree with Richard on this, and would add that we don't really know what the prefect job entails. I suspect 5th year prefects are more responsible for looking out for the younger students, and helping to maintain order, than for enforcing the rules among their own classmates - let alone older students. I suspect part of the decision of picking a prefect is based on who the other students respect and would follow. Some of the job Percy had as a prefect included leading the first years to the dorm the first night, leading everybody back when the troll was in the dungeon, and standing guard in the great hall when the whole student body slept there. From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 16:16:59 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:16:59 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78971 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sevenhundredandthirteen" wrote: > Hopefully I won't be getting too deep into the time travel theories this time...> > Talisman, wearily rolling away her other parchments, responds: I think you are thrashing around in the shallows and muddying the water, dear. Laurasia: > Your premise that we are always stuck with a soul-sucked Harry unless someone else saves him relies on one thing- that there has to be a `first time' that time occurs in which no-one has gone back in time. Talisman: Indeed, every one of your theories acknowledges the same premise. But, let's distinguish time as a dimension versus time as an instance or occurance. Laurasia: That is- because you believe that Time happens multiple times > . . . This is a great theory- except that Time doesn't have to function multiple times. Instead of thinking about Time occurring many times over, think about time only ever happening once. > Talisman: You apparently didn't comprehend the post. If you will re-read #78370, you will find that I devote a good deal of time explaining how Harry can't save himself in a "one seamless time/multiple experiences" scenerio. Laurasia: I agree that soul-sucked Harry can't turn over > the time-turner and go back in time to un-soul-suck himself. However,if there is no `first time' for time, (that is- time occurs only once) then there is no need for `Harry to be saved the first time to go back and save himself the second time' because there is no second time... Talisman: Again I think you are slipping between two usages of the word "time," without realizing the distinction. >Laurasia: > Time-Travel Theory #3: > > When you turn over the time-turner you get transported back in time. > Time has not moved backwards, rather *you* have been transported > through it. Time occurs only once; it's only people that can > experience it more than once. Talisman: Again, read my post about one time/multiple experiences. It's all there. Laurasia > In this version of time-travel there is no loop or step- time > occurred only once in a continuous and straight line. Talisman: But listen to yourself, you are describing a loop. A loop of experience, to quote you above "people ... can experience it more than once." Now, when considering the "first time" try to replace "time" with "an instance of experience" rather than a dimensional track. Laurasia: > Harry and Hermione are in the hospital wing only once. They > *actually* *go* *back* *in* *time* to 3 hours previously. They > eventually arrive back in the hospital wing for the _only_ time to > hear the people they used to be 3 hours ago leaving to go back in > time. This H+H have, naturally, have already gone back in time- > they're standing right there outside the door waiting to come back > inside. Talisman: Sounds like one time/multiple experiences to me. And you are still showing an accrual of experinces, yet you try to deny the need to deal with a first instance of a sucked-if-not-saved Harry experience. Laurasia: In this kind of reality there in *NO* `first time' in which > no-one went back in time. There was only *ONE* time. For this kind of time-travel to work in PoA there is *NO* *NEED* for someone else to save Harry except himself. So, you see, there need not necessarily have been a `first time.'Therefore, it is entirely possible that Harry really did save himself. Talisman: You are still confusing yourself with the word "time." And to avoid a hopeless reiteration of the mess, just look at the initial step in your "great de-bunking" theory, and I quote you: "When you turn over the time-turner you get transported back in time." Ah, there's the rub, n'est-ce pas? When indeed? Couple that with your admission that soul-sucked people can't use time-turners to unsuck themselves, and you defeat yourself before you start. Really, there is no need to go through the rest of it. Go ahead and pitch a time-turner through the veil. Sirius can't use it to get out. Even if, by your reasoning, he could then make it so his death never happened,i.e. "save himself." That is because NOW, in the one seamless time (let's make that Time), and his initial experience of it, he is unable to initiate time travel. Understand that and you understand that someone else saved Harry. Couple that with Snape's traditional "save Harry " role, and the other points in messages #78215 and 78258, and you've got my view of it. > Laurasia > Okay, so I wasn't trying to discount your theory- you are > still free to accept that there is a `first time' time-travel thing happening. Talisman: Thanks very much, but I never wait for permission to think for myself. If you straighten out your jumbled semantics, you'll see that what I endorse is rather different than what you attribute to me, and that you have not effectively argued against it. Talisman, who really did want to avoid the stink-sap of time-travel for just this reason, and promises to wash well and not get into it again. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 16:19:40 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:19:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's age In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78972 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > > > > OK...If I understand you correctly you are saying that all the > > current judges were injured in 1792. ...edited... > > > > Anyway, my guess is that you were reading this too carefully and > > misunderstood what was actually being stated.... > > > Well, Harry or Ron were asking who the judges were going to be, and > Hermione replied that the heads of the three schools, because they > all were injured during the Tourney of 1792, when a cockatrice that > they were trying to capture went on a rampage. Not exact but really > close. So how am I to read this? bboy_mn: Harry and Ron are asking who the judges are going to be. Hermione responds by saying that in 1792 the three school heads at that time were injured as they judged the tournement. Since the school heads were judges back them, Hermione is pointing out that it is likely that the current school heads will be judges now. She is using an example from the past to determine what is likely to happen in the present. > Hermione is(in my take) saying all three of the current heads were > champions and were injured during a task. ...edited... So why not > some of the last champions as the new founders / judges? Did DD > attend Hogwarts and who was Head then? Just a thought. > > Severus bboy_mn: Here is where I think you may be confused. If I understand you correctly, you are interpreting Hermione's statement as, the three current school heads were champions in 1792, and as champions, they were all injured during the tournement. I don't think you will find very many people who read that the same way. I concede that perhaps I read it wrong, but I'm confident that I am in the majority opinion. The three school heads at that time were judges in 1792. Hermione knows this because the fact that the judges in 1792 were injured was sufficiently significant to get it mentioned in the history book. So, she knows the school heads at that time were judges back then, and logically concludes that the three school heads now will be judges in the current tournement. I'm betting that's how most people read it. Just a thought. bboy_mn From tamliv at worldnet.att.net Wed Aug 27 16:38:19 2003 From: tamliv at worldnet.att.net (Tamee Livingston) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:38:19 -0800 Subject: 4 Voldemort Phases References: <1061987574.15930.85641.m15@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <097b01c36cb9$bd1eae80$43c50c0c@computer> No: HPFGUIDX 78973 I'm combining my responses to two posts into one. Salit: >>>My best guess is that the MOM must have hidden security measures that would have been triggered had Voldemort tried to enter. Note that he never actually entered the ministry proper - he was only at the atrium. These measures must have been set against Voldemort but as the identity of the DE's was at the time unknown, and later they were arrested (or "cleared") there was no cause to set them against the DE's so they could enter freely.<<< That's a good point, though I'm guessing these defenses probably date back to the first Voldemort war since the official position is that he's dead. However, the fact is that the ministry knew that there were 10 unregenerate and probably insane DEs were on the loose (and there are 6 or more of them at the MOM that night), so why aren't there defenses up against them? Or is it just to emphasize the incompetence of Fudge's ministry (I for one refuse to believe that either he or Umbridge are DEs.) aussie: >>>The DE didn't have to be there for hours, however. LV misused Harry's "dream-like" experience to think Sirius was taken those hours ago, but the DE only had to appear after DA arrived. <<< My problem with that is the same as my problem with the entire setup. How could they guarantee an empty ministry when Harry got there? I guess Voldemort could have tracked Harry's movements through their connection, but that still doesn't satisfy me. I think what it boils down to is that I want more show and less tell when it comes to Voldemort as ultimate evil wizard. I think that's why I got chills when Cedric was killed. There it was right in front of me, no need to wonder about it. That was evil at work. I think that's also why I reacted so strongly to Umbridge. I could see what she was doing. So I guess that what I really need isn't out there yet. I don't know what Voldemort is planning, so it's easy to judge him by the mess that was the whole MOM debacle. I want to know how what he's been doing fits into some long range strategy and that it's not just a random series of actions to shore up a weak front. Thanks for the replies. They do help. I guess I need my evil plans spelled out and a reason to believe that apparently stupid ideas are actually dead clever. Also, I'm jazzed because this is my first unmoderated post. Tamee From erinellii at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 17:39:19 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:39:19 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78974 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arrowsmithbt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" > wrote: > > Recent threads have gotten me thinking. > > > > I am a member of an invisible minority. We are about 10% of the > > population, and are found throughout all religions, cultures, and > > nationalities. Some have tried to change us and make us "normal", > > but that has toned down in the last generation. I have found no > > mention of any of us in HP. In fact, there is only one person who is > > stated as being in the majority. > > > > I have always read by putting myself in the position of the > > characters. So, to me, they are all like me unless the text > > specificly states otherwise. So, by my calculations, there should be > > between 28 and 100 (depending on your estimate of the student body) > > people at Hogwarts, and another 106 on the list who are like me. > > > > No one that I have seen has made a big deal out of the lack of my > > people in the books. In fact, in the realm of literature, it is only > > brought up if it is crucial to the plot or of the author is one of us. > > > > So what do y'all think? Is there a reason that not one of the > > characters in Harry Potter has been distinguished as being left- > > handed? > > > > My point here: we all see things from our own perspective. We all > > look for ourselves in books. If we have something that is different > > from the norm, (by that I mean the *statistical* majority) we look > > for it specificly. Because that is who we are, and how we see > > ourselves and our relation to the characters. > > > > Ginger, who hates manual can openers. Try it left-handed sometime! > > BTW, I would be so sad if Harry and Bill ended up together. It would > > kill my Bill/Remus ship. > > What odds would you give that Prof. Sinistra is left-handed? > You may have a moment of glory yet. > > Kneasy I betcha anything that Dean Thomas, the artist, is left-handed. Erin From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 18:08:05 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:08:05 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78975 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" wrote: > > Laurasia: > > Your premise that we are always stuck with a soul-sucked Harry > unless someone else saves him relies on one thing- that there has > to be a `first time' that time occurs in which no-one has gone back > in time. > > Talisman: > Indeed, every one of your theories acknowledges the same > premise. But, let's distinguish time as a dimension versus time as > an instance or occurance. > > Laurasia: > That is- because you believe that Time happens multiple times > > . . . This is a great theory- except that Time doesn't have > to function multiple times. Instead of thinking about Time > occurring many times over, think about time only ever happening > once. > > > Talisman: > You apparently didn't comprehend the post. If you will re-read > #78370, you will find that I devote a good deal of time explaining > how Harry can't save himself in a "one seamless time/multiple > experiences" scenerio. > > ...edited... > > Talisman, bboy_mn: Well, you say that you debunked the "one seamless time/multiple experiences" scenerio in post #78370, but I don't see it. You cetainly mention it, you certainly reached conclusions, but I don't see that you established those conclusions. Here are a couple of interesting posts that might help you gain a different perspective in time travel. I will add that these are my posts. Quick Look at Time Travel http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/57776 Hermione Aging via Time turner http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53555 You point out that we must be careful about how we regard time; whether it is an event or a dimension. I agree, and will add that time is RELATIVE (Thank you Dr. Einstein). We have one immutable source of time which is neutral and independant, marching ever forward; I call that the timeline. Then we have people's perception of that passage of time, and we have time as a biological event; the wearing down of the human body. In the timeline, three Hermiones existed at once; relative to the timeline, Hermione lives one hour as three parallel occurances. But from Hermione's perspective and from the perspective of the biological passing of time (wear and tear), Hermione sees three consecutive hours. Remember time is relative, what you see depends on the perspective you view it from. This is what the timeline sees- 9:00AM - three Hermiones appear at the doorway to three separate classrooms (say Arithmacy, Ancient Runes, and Tranfiguration), and then she takes those classes in parallel thereby allowing her to be in all three classes at once which in neutral unbiased time is one hour. What Hermione sees- 9:00AM to 10:00AM - Hermione goes to Transfigurations, at 10AM she time travels back to 9AM. 9:00AM to 10:00AM - Hermione goes to Ancient Runes, at 10AM she time travels back to 9AM. 9:00AM to 10:00PM - Hermione goes to Arithmacy, at 10AM she goes to her first 10AM class. Three Hermione's appear at 9:00am and take all three classes. From Hermione's perspective, she takes three consecutive classes, and lives three consecutive hours. We only seen the passing of one hour, if we take the perspective of the immutable, neutral, and independant timeline. On the night of the Dementors in PoA, the neutral unbiased timeline proceeds forward 24 hours in that one day. From the perspective of Harry and Hermione, and their biological mechanisms, the day is actually 27 hours long. Within the confines of that 24 hour timeline, Harry and Hermione experience 27 hours of linear time. Expanding this to Hermione's studies and time travel through out the school years, the rest of the students have experienced 10 months of time both in the timeline and in their perspective. Hermione because of her time travels has experienced 10 months and 33 days. That's why Hermione is always so tired, because in biological self-perceived time, Hermione is living 30 hour days. Getting back to the PoA night of the Dementors, at approximately 9:00PM, the original Harry and Hermione along with Ron are hiding in the entrance hall, and just miss the time traveling Harry and Hermione as they appear in the entrance hall and hide in the cupboard. JKR makes a point of showing us this scene from the perspective of both parties, and imples that each hears the other's footsteps. This is JKR hint pointing us to the fact that the first, and one and only time through these events, both sets of Harry and Hermione were there. In the linear, unbiased, neutral timeline at the one and only time 9:00PM occurred, both Harry and Hermione, and time travel Harry and Hermione are there. Since TT!Harry is there, having arrived at 9pm, he is there and available at approx 11:30pm to save himself from the Dementors. So in summary, Time is Relative; in the neutral time line, TT!Harry and TT!Hermione were always there because they arrived at 9pm, and 9pm only occurs once. From the perceived passing of time and in biological time, Harry and Hermione experience 9pm twice, but that is a perception that is relative to their point of view. Harry was always there because he arrived at 9pm in the linear unbiased timeline; saving himself occurred after 9pm. Just a thought. bboy_mn From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 18:40:35 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:40:35 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78976 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Talisman" > wrote: > > > > > Laurasia: > > > Your premise that we are always stuck with a soul-sucked Harry > > unless someone else saves him relies on one thing- that there has > > to be a `first time' that time occurs in which no-one has gone back > > in time. > > > > Talisman: > > Indeed, every one of your theories acknowledges the same > > premise. But, let's distinguish time as a dimension versus time as > > an instance or occurance. > > > > Laurasia: > > That is- because you believe that Time happens multiple times > > > . . . This is a great theory- except that Time doesn't have > > to function multiple times. Instead of thinking about Time > > occurring many times over, think about time only ever happening > > once. > > > > > Talisman: > > You apparently didn't comprehend the post. If you will re-read > > #78370, you will find that I devote a good deal of time explaining > > how Harry can't save himself in a "one seamless time/multiple > > experiences" scenerio. > > > > ...edited... > > > > Talisman, > > > bboy_mn: > Well, you say that you debunked the "one seamless time/multiple > experiences" scenerio in post #78370, but I don't see it. You cetainly > mention it, you certainly reached conclusions, but I don't see that > you established those conclusions. > > Here are a couple of interesting posts that might help you gain a > different perspective in time travel. I will add that these are my posts. > > Quick Look at Time Travel > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/57776 > > Hermione Aging via Time turner > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53555 > > You point out that we must be careful about how we regard time; > whether it is an event or a dimension. > > I agree, and will add that time is RELATIVE (Thank you Dr. Einstein). > We have one immutable source of time which is neutral and independant, > marching ever forward; I call that the timeline. Then we have people's > perception of that passage of time, and we have time as a biological > event; the wearing down of the human body. > > In the timeline, three Hermiones existed at once; relative to the > timeline, Hermione lives one hour as three parallel occurances. But > from Hermione's perspective and from the perspective of the biological > passing of time (wear and tear), Hermione sees three consecutive > hours. Remember time is relative, what you see depends on the > perspective you view it from. > > This is what the timeline sees- > 9:00AM - three Hermiones appear at the doorway to three separate > classrooms (say Arithmacy, Ancient Runes, and Tranfiguration), and > then she takes those classes in parallel thereby allowing her to be in > all three classes at once which in neutral unbiased time is one hour. > > What Hermione sees- > 9:00AM to 10:00AM - Hermione goes to Transfigurations, at 10AM she > time travels back to 9AM. > > 9:00AM to 10:00AM - Hermione goes to Ancient Runes, at 10AM she time > travels back to 9AM. > > 9:00AM to 10:00PM - Hermione goes to Arithmacy, at 10AM she goes to > her first 10AM class. > > > Three Hermione's appear at 9:00am and take all three classes. From > Hermione's perspective, she takes three consecutive classes, and lives > three consecutive hours. We only seen the passing of one hour, if we > take the perspective of the immutable, neutral, and independant timeline. > > On the night of the Dementors in PoA, the neutral unbiased timeline > proceeds forward 24 hours in that one day. From the perspective of > Harry and Hermione, and their biological mechanisms, the day is > actually 27 hours long. Within the confines of that 24 hour timeline, > Harry and Hermione experience 27 hours of linear time. > > Expanding this to Hermione's studies and time travel through out the > school years, the rest of the students have experienced 10 months of > time both in the timeline and in their perspective. Hermione because > of her time travels has experienced 10 months and 33 days. That's why > Hermione is always so tired, because in biological self-perceived > time, Hermione is living 30 hour days. > > Getting back to the PoA night of the Dementors, at approximately > 9:00PM, the original Harry and Hermione along with Ron are hiding in > the entrance hall, and just miss the time traveling Harry and Hermione > as they appear in the entrance hall and hide in the cupboard. JKR > makes a point of showing us this scene from the perspective of both > parties, and imples that each hears the other's footsteps. This is JKR > hint pointing us to the fact that the first, and one and only time > through these events, both sets of Harry and Hermione were there. > > In the linear, unbiased, neutral timeline at the one and only time > 9:00PM occurred, both Harry and Hermione, and time travel Harry and > Hermione are there. Since TT!Harry is there, having arrived at 9pm, he > is there and available at approx 11:30pm to save himself from the > Dementors. > > So in summary, Time is Relative; in the neutral time line, TT!Harry > and TT!Hermione were always there because they arrived at 9pm, and 9pm > only occurs once. From the perceived passing of time and in biological > time, Harry and Hermione experience 9pm twice, but that is a > perception that is relative to their point of view. > > Harry was always there because he arrived at 9pm in the linear > unbiased timeline; saving himself occurred after 9pm. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Severus here: Excellent post, you explained it very well. I could not figure out how to put into terms so it would sound understandable, instead of sounding like someone who is mentally divergent (12 monkeys w/ Bruce W.). I was trying to compare it to traveling through a town, section, something without using the loop description. I really felt for Hermione during those times, and I thought I was tired after a 70 hour work week, just think of adding 6+ hours to each of your days. Once again, Great post. Sevvy From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 27 18:34:41 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:34:41 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Snape's Memory References: <1061923110.18401.66620.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <005001c36cc9$e1725a60$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 78977 RSFJenny: >Snape is the Eavesdropper in the Hog?Ts Head. >Snape put three memories in the Pensieve. We know one was the "worst memory". >There is only speculation on what the other two were, but, by going on all we >know of Snape in canon, it's safe to attribute the second to when James saved >Snape's life (God forbid Harry see his father as a hero in Snape's memory). Except that Harry already knows all about this. He knows that James saved Severus's life. And he also knows that it wasn't done as an act of altruism. And Snape knows that Harry knows. It's possible, I agree, that it's a memory that still makes Snape so angry that he has to get it out of his head to be able to think straight when he's teaching Harry. But not something that he needs to keep hidden >So, the third? What must Snape keep from Harry? It has to be important that >Harry not see. From what we know of Snape in canon, there is no other significant >event in his life, except whatever it was that made Snape turn to the good I'd say that that lack of mention in canon is itself significant! JKR's comment about there being something in book 7 which will be very important about Snape suggests that there's something very big to come out. Which was what led me to speculate that Snape took his hatred of James out into the world with him and acted on it as a DE. >side (I don't believe there is a significant moment that made him turn to the >dark side, I believe he was already on that path). JKR has been silent on what >made Snape switch sides, leaving us to know only that DD trusts him. What proof >could Snape have offered to DD to prove he was indeed switching sides? I >believe he provided DD with information - his knowledge of part of the prophecy >and that he had passed the information to LV - as proof, which is defintely >something Harry is not allowed to see. Not enough for you? Consider this: just how >does DD know that the eavesdropper didn't hear the whole thing unless the >eavesdropper himself told DD? He was listening to the prophecy, so the chances >that DD also heard the exact moment the eavesdropper was being thrown out are >quite slim-none. I agree with what you're saying here, not so much in the sense that Snape used his partial knowledge of the prophecy as the key to make Dumbledore take him on board (Dumbledore could equally easily have concluded that Snape was trying to blackmail him and let the Aurors turn him inside out) but that the prophecy _itself_ is something which the Order doesn't want Harry to know at this time - perhaps Dumbledore gave Snape a direct instruction to eliminate any possibility of Harry finding out the prophecy until he was ready. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From maris at myhome.net Wed Aug 27 06:11:41 2003 From: maris at myhome.net (Maris) Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 23:11:41 -0700 Subject: Dumbledore's age References: Message-ID: <003401c36c63$38126e80$0ca3dccf@raven> No: HPFGUIDX 78978 Hi, I am new here, and wish to respond to this -- albeit with monitoring, I understand! :-) Severus "reading much closer now" Snape wrote: >I read in a post a few weeks back that JKR (in interview) had said DD's age was around 150, and since I am re-reading GoF I noticed what Hermione says about the judges. Hermione says to H & R "because all three of them were injured in the Tournament of 1792, when a cokatrice...", if this statement is true (it was in "Hogwarts, A History") and the first book took place in 1990, then DD is well over 202 years old, and so are Madame Maxine, and Karkaroff. I don't know if this has been posted and if it has, sorry for the repeat. It seems JKR has a way of contradicting herself. Thought you should know. Also, I don't know if it could be a red herring of some sort. ********* Mine was the same sort of understanding, at first. At a second read, though, I understood Hermione to be referring to the current Head of each of the respective schools at the time of that particular match. "Who are the judges?" Harry asked. "Well, the Heads of the participating schools are always on the panel," said Hermione, and everyone looked around at her, rather surprised, "because all three of them were injured during the Tournament of 1792, when a cockatrice the champions were supposed to be catching went on the rampage." ~~"Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" In support of this conclusion, is the referral to the Headmaster prior to Dumbledore, when Tom Riddle was in the school, and Dumbledore was a Professor (and the school was going to be closed down because of the monster which was loose). ~~"Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets" Snuffles From me1is at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 08:26:19 2003 From: me1is at yahoo.com (Me1is) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:26:19 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78979 Maus "mightymaus75" wrote: > I predict that Harry will die, but not willingly in some emotional > overly dramatic act of self-sacrifice as so many seem to think. > Voldemort will kill Harry, and for a moment at least Voldemort will > be completely victorious. > >>> Wow - I absolutly love this theory. I have a few things to add: 1) If Lord V does indeed kill Harry, bringing back the lost part of him and becoming mortal, he will be living a cursed "half life" because he drank the unicorn blood in PS/SS. 2) The part of Lord V which was in Harry did not drink the unicorns blood and isn't cursed. How would that work? Part of him would be cursed, and part not? 3) What Lord V needs to do is pull the part of himself out of Harry which is not cursed and somehow substitute it for his current self. This brings us back to (you guessed it) Switching Spells! :) 4) When Lord V has switched his cursed self with the part of himself which resides in Harry and is not cursed, then he is free to kill Harry. 5) But will he kill Harry? Because as mightymaus75 pointed out the part of Lord V which is in Harry has now been exposed to Harry's love and pain and selflessness - what's a wizard to do? "Me1is" From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Aug 27 19:18:50 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:18:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308272118.50909.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 78980 Steve: > In the linear, unbiased, neutral timeline at the one and only > time 9:00PM occurred, both Harry and Hermione, and time travel > Harry and Hermione are there. Since TT!Harry is there, having > arrived at 9pm, he is there and available at approx 11:30pm to > save himself from the Dementors. 9:00 PM only happens once, but the events taking place at 9:00 change. Before HH went back in time, there was not footsteps, later it changed so timeline changed to include HH footsteps. We only see the changed version of events, wich include footsteps. > From the perceived passing of > time and in biological time, Harry and Hermione experience 9pm > twice, but that is a perception that is relative to their point > of view. One linear unbiased neutral timeline, multiple instances, what Talisman said. Hermione ages, that's clear, I don't see how it contradicts multiple instances. > Harry was always there because he arrived at 9pm in the linear > unbiased timeline; saving himself occurred after 9pm. Harry couldn't have arrived at 9pm if dementorized. Christy: << You've killed yourself, and therefore, changed the future. You no longer exist, so you die, along with your past self. The future is changed, based upon that event, so everything from that point onward changes.>> << This could get pretty messy, when one starts to consider all the events that then must change due to your never existing. And all this would start to happen instantly.>> And one thing that would happen is you don't die, because there is no future-self to kill you after you are dead. As you die, all your future actions vanish, killing included. What I don't know is how the mage can remember, to know better than to kill himself the second time. silmariel From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 19:23:23 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:23:23 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!/Stop Making Excuses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78981 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "serious_schwartz" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "KathyK" > wrote: > > KathyK: > > > > > > "Losing" Bertha Jorkins was probably bad enough press for the > > Ministry. How would Fudge combat the accusation that he can't keep > > his own people safe and under control? He doesn't even want these > > things to come up. So he has the Dementors kiss Crouch Jr. > > > > Then he has to deal with Dumbledore's tall tales about Voldemort > > returning. What's a Minister of Magic in love with his position to > > do? Cover *everything* up. Not just Voldemort's return but Harry's > > story, the truth behind Bertha Jorkins, Crouch Sr., and Cedric > > Diggory's disappearance/deaths. > > > > Once again, this does help Voldemort. But it helps non-DE Fudge more. > > > > I totally agree that Fudge is all self-preserving politician and not > a death eater. He is often shown reacting to things with a line > such as This will reflect badly on the ministry... or What will > happen if the press gets hold of this? Or -- when taking Hagrid to > Azkaban in CoS -- that he needs to be seen taking some kind of > action against the attacks on the students. > > --serious_schwartz EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES. You guys are making excuses for Fudge. When you constantly make excuses for someone, the is something very wrong. Explain why when the 10 DE's escape in OOTP, Fudge did not send Dementors out to hunt for them. He did when Sirius escaped. Also, Fudge conviently blames Sirius for the breakout. So Fudge only cares about his own butt, and not the saftey of those in the WW. If you don't believe he is a DE, then he is just as evil as LV. From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 08:53:58 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 08:53:58 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78982 Hi, I have a little theory I would like to share... I predict that Harry will die, but not willingly in some emotional overly dramatic act of self-sacrifice as so many seem to think. Voldemort will kill Harry, and for a moment at least Voldemort will be completely victorious. The prophecy states that: "neither can live while the other survives". In Harry's case this makes sense; while Voldemort is out there killing the ones he loves and threatening to take over Harry's mind, Harry will never be able to live a normal life. But what about Voldemort? Why exactly is it that Voldemort can't live while Harry is around? What's preventing him from abandoning this whole world domination/immortality thing, moving to a nice warm tropical island, and making loads of money of his best selling autobiography 'How I became the Dark Lord'? He could use the tan. The answer I think can be found in PS, near the end Dumbledore tells Harry: "He is still out there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share... *not being truly alive*, he cannot be killed." So what if, in Voldemort's case, 'neither can live while the other survives' refers to the fact that he at the moment is actually not truly alive? It would then be only when Voldemort kills Harry that he becomes truly alive again, and at the same time becomes mortal again. The key to all this lies in Harry's scar. In CoS Dumbledore tells Harry that Voldemort unintentionally put a bit of himself in Harry when the Avada Kedavra curse backfired. My guess is that a small part of Voldemort's disembodied mind instinctively jumped to the nearest living body it could find. (Did Voldemort perhaps unsuccessfully try to possess Harry's body?) Harry's scar marks the place where this part of Voldemort's mind dug its way into Harry's head. This explains why his scar hurts whenever Voldemort is close by; the separated part of Voldemort's mind desperately wants to rejoin with the rest of Voldemort. This also explains why Harry can sometimes feel Voldemort's emotions. When Dumbledore is examining the smoke serpent in OotP, this is what he's talking about. The snakes represent the separate parts of the Voldemort's mind, which share a bond but at the same time are essentially divided. Both parts of his mind have experienced completely different lives for the past 15 years. When Voldemort then eventually kills Harry the separated part of Voldemort's mind will finally be free to return to Voldemort. And it will take with it everything it experienced while it was trapped in Harry's body, including the love Harry experienced for the people around him. When both parts of his mind are reunited Voldemort will directly experience how much Harry was actually like him: both were orphans, both had a very tough childhood being raised by Muggles, both were half-bloods, they even looked alike when they were young. But unlike Voldemort, Harry never chose to take revenge on the world, showing Voldemort that it's not the situation we are placed in that determines what we are. It's our choices that define what we truly are. Not only that, Voldemort will also directly experience the love Harry felt for the people around him. And it is this love that will ultimately make Voldemort human again, and mortal. Because this is Voldemort's great weakness, he cannot feel love or pain. It's because of this that he is not truly alive. And it is this that is the fate worse then death: living without ever experiencing love... or pain. It's worse than death to never be truly alive. Lupin already told Harry this when he told him about the Dementor's kiss in PoA: "...they clamp their jaws upon the mouth of the victim and ? and suck out his soul" Harry accidentally spat out a bit of his butterbeer. "What ? they kill ??" "Oh no," said Lupin. "*Much worse than that*. You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as your brain and heart are still working." It's Voldemort's current state of not feeling love and pain that is worse than death. So Voldemort can't possibly lose. He cannot be killed as long as he is not truly alive, and he cannot live as long as Harry survives. Assuming of course that 'not being truly alive, he cannot be killed' was referring to the results of the one or more 'experiments' that caused Voldemort to survive the rebounded Avada Kedavra curse. And of course as soon as Voldemort does become mortal he will probably be killed by Neville. Or Wormtail. And doesn't this seem like just the devious underhanded kind of thing J.K. Rowling would come up with for an ending, making us believe for a moment that the Dark Lord actually wins? -Maus That's right the dark side guarantees victory! Take advantage of the exclusive benefits reserved only for the Dark Lord's most trusted servants, without any of the nasty risk of defeat and ending up in Azkaban!... Apply today! * By doing so you are agreeing to the conditions under which all guidance, information, and support is offered by the dark side. The dark side is not responsible for actions or decisions taken by clients as a consequence of any guidance support or information they receive from the dark side. As part of our client centred approach to all clients, we actively encourage clients to take full responsibility for their own evil decisions and actions, as well as their own career progression. ** All claims of guaranteed victory become void in case of Dark Lord being killed by unlikely anti-hero after the death of H. Potter. The dark side reserves the right to suddenly and without any notice change any of the above mentioned conditions. From tubadave at normalview.com Wed Aug 27 13:26:24 2003 From: tubadave at normalview.com (tubadave) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 13:26:24 -0000 Subject: Predicting the future, Trelawney style In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78983 I've posted a couple of time in the Movie spinoff of this group, but I don't remember if I've made an appearance over here before or not. If not, hi, I'm David, I'm 27, and I'm from Texas, and I love discussions for predictions of events in Books 6 & 7 more than anything, so I'll jump in with a long-winded response here. Now, with the pleasantries completed, on with the show: eligro predicts: > 1. Harry: Direct descendant of BOTH Godric Gryffindor and Salazar > Slytherin. > EVIDENCE: Ability to open the COS, the Sorting Hat's gift, > Parseltongue, parents from Godric Hollow, yada yada dada Dave responds: Him being a direct descendant of Godric Gryffindor wouldn't surprise me at all; in fact, I've been waiting patiently to find out that very thing since CoS, but JKR may not have that in mind, I don't know. However, I seriously doubt that there is any direct relation to Slytherin. His ability to open the CoS was due to his being able to speak Parseltongue, and it was mentioned in the 2nd book that this ability was most likely passed to him from Voldemort. CoS, American paperback edition, pg. 332-333: "You can speak Parseltongue, Harry," said Dumbledore calmly, "because Lord Voldemort---who *is* the last remaining ancestor of Salazar Slytherin---can speak Parseltongue. Unless I'm much mistaken, he transferred some of his own powers to you the night he gave you that scar. Not something he intended to do, I'm sure...." It's stated in such a way that Dumbledore could be wrong for assuming, but then the theory seems to hold up in OotP, when the prophecy mentions that "the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal." eligro predicts: > 2. Lily Evans: Tom Riddle's daughter and Petunia Dursley's half- > sister. > EVIDENCE: It's all in the eyes. Dave responds: Although JKR has made mention of the fact that Harry's eyes resembling those of his mother will play some important role at some point, I don't see a relation to Tom Riddle being the way it goes. eligro predicts: > 3. Dumbledore done for. > EVIDENCE: He's gettin' up there. Plus it's so preciously Obi-Wan. He > did acknowledge that he loves Harry in OOP. His + Lily's love = one > gosh darn big-a*$ protective charm. Dave responds: I wholeheartedly agree with this one, and I like the Star Wars parallel....the "remove the mentor so that the student can come into his own" kind of theme. It happens in the original movie, and sort of happens again in Return of the Jedi (with the death of Yoda.) I think we will likely see the demise of Dumbledore, possibly in the 6th book, setting up Harry to come into his own in the 7th. Remember, JKR has been quoted as saying that Sirius' death in OotP was "the beginning of the deaths." eligro predicts: > 5. Percy: A double agent. > EVIDENCE: Noted to be lurking in the COS Slytherin halls. Didn't > visit his dad in hospital (who does that, I ask you?!). Dave responds: This one, I've noticed, has already been debated quite a bit, and I'll leave it alone, other than to say that I don't think Percy is anything more than a pro-Ministry, power-hungry young man who has just lost his way for a while. I hope he finds his way back eventually. eligro predicts: > 6. Draco: Drawn to the light side, a la Snape. Reluctant and pissy, > but ultimately a good egg (scrambled, not poached). > EVIDENCE: Just a hunch. With Lucius haranguing Draco for his lack of > success and now in prison ... Parental resentment can go a long way. > Also, OOP foreshadowing notes that at least one Slytherin will have > to help. Dave responds: I've toyed with this idea numerous times, and I still don't know. I don't think there's been enough evidence given yet (whether red herrings or not) to support this. I wouldn't put it past JKR to do it, though. eligro predicts: > 7. More time for time-turners. > EVIDENCE: JKR said that Book 7 would explain what happens to the > gang. How best to do that but through a story that involves time > travel ... keep turnin' 'til the story ends right. Dave responds: I am of the opinion that JKR, having once resorted to time travel as a major plot device in PoA, will not use it again. I have no evidence one way or the other, just a hunch. Up to this point, she hasn't struck me as being all the repetitive with her plot devices. eligro predicts: > 8. Harry and Ginny, Ron and Hermione, Dumbledore and McGonagall. > EVIDENCE: Who knows? The first two pairs seem perfect together. As > re: the third, well, it must get lonely at Hogwarts over the summer. Dave responds: Harry and Ginny would be my preference, but the introduction of Luna, combined with the uncertainty of what's going to become oh Harry when the final battle commences, keeps me from being too sure about it. Ron and Hermione, on the other hand, is a sure thing in my mind. All of their bickering, Ron's behavior towards Viktor Krum, the shouting match after the Yule Ball, all of the comparisons that have been made between Hermione and Molly Weasley....if JKR doesn't plan to put the two of them together, then she should be arrested for Criminally Excessive Use of Red Herrings. eligro predicts: > 9. Something will happen to Neville. > EVIDENCE: Something always happens to Neville. Dave responds: I'm almost positive that you're right about this one. lol I think quite a few somethings will happen to Neville, maybe some very big somethings. His rapid improvement, Re: The D.A., and the fact that he was the other wizard boy the prophecy could have been talking about tells me that he will have a major role to play before it's all over. eligro predicts: > 10. Snape will prove his worthiness by sacrificing his life to save > Harry. > EVIDENCE: None. But it would be a good twist! Dave responds: Snape confuses me more than any other character. I don't know what to make of him. Is he really reformed? I've watched a lot of the debate in this forum concerning Snape, and there are a lot of differing opinions on him. And now, one prediction from me: I think that, eventually, we may see Wormtail do something to save Harry, or in some other way reform himself, due to the life-debt he owes to Harry from PoA. Dumbledore's exact words: PoA, American paperback edition, pg. 427: "This is magic at its deepest, its most impenetrable, Harry. But trust me...the time may come when you will be very glad you saved Pettigrew's life." From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Wed Aug 27 19:29:43 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:29:43 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's age In-Reply-To: <003401c36c63$38126e80$0ca3dccf@raven> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78984 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Maris" wrote: At a second read, though, I understood Hermione to be referring to the current Head of each of the respective schools at the time of that particular match. > > "Who are the judges?" Harry asked. > "Well, the Heads of the participating schools are always on the panel," said Hermione, and everyone looked around at her, rather surprised, "because all three of them were injured during the Tournament of 1792, when a cockatrice the champions were supposed to be catching went on the rampage." ~~"Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire" OK - now that I know what the books *originally* said, it feels safe to add this. In the Swedish translation, the word order was a bit different, pretty much saying that it was the three *champions* that were injured, and not the judges. But that could be a mistake on the translator's part; in fact, it also says that the champions were supposed to catch a basilisk. (I have no way of checking what a cockatrice could be in Swedish, but if I'm not totally crazy the basilisk is a basilisk in both languages, right?) Thanks for the quote, Maris. evangelina From emmathelegend at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 10:50:42 2003 From: emmathelegend at hotmail.com (punkstarz85) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 10:50:42 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78985 Hello All, I was watching Harry Potter & the Philosopher's Stone on DVD the other night when, all of a sudden, it hit me! The Prophecy in Order of the Pheonix contradicts a major storyline in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. As we found out at the end of Goblet of Fire, when Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort try to duel, their wands refuse because of their shared core. Eventually Priori Incantatem occurs in one wand after a cage/light linking incident. The Prophecy states something along the line of Harry or Voldemort must murder the other for the remaining to live. However unless I'm forgetting something, in order to do so, they must duel. I can't see either going silently or unwillingly, can you? I'm curious to see how J.K Rowling is going to work around this! Emma From sues0101 at hotmail.com Wed Aug 27 14:28:57 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:28:57 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] My Post Again Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78986 >From: "severusbook4" >. It seems strange to me that we have come to be >afraid to voice our opinions if it may offend some one of a minority >group, and that is wrong. My opinion that Harry is straight is >based on written proof but is flamed while some ones homosexual >fantasy, that has no reason to be in a book discussion forum, is >alright? Please explain this to me, I thought we were discussing >the books and our theories of what may happen and who is or is not a >DE supporter. Where did the gay thread come from? Is there any >proof? I agree with the person that stated that the more off your >theory is the higher the wall of proof needs to be. > >I am also sorry for the way I write my opinion sometimes, adult ADD >does break and muddle ones chain of thought, so I tend to jump >around in subjects quite abit. If you can follow it and get the >gist of what I am writting, more power to you. > >Severus "Adult ADD poster child" Snape > Sue: Hey Sevvie, please don't get confused. I think I might have started one or other of those 'gay' threads, and didn't want to start a war. But I also reiterated to another poster that everyone had the right to their own opinion and should be allowed to express it, without it becoming nasty or personal. I actually sit here reading all these emails and get myself terribly confused. I read one and think, 'yes I agree with that', then the next one comes along totally disagreeing with the first one, and I think 'oh, yes, that's right too'. I crack myself up laughing at myself. (and yes, I know there are too many 'myselfs' in that sentence! LOL) I suppose what I'm really trying to do is to reiterate what I originally said and that is that everyone has the right to their opinion and their own ideas of where different story lines are going, picking up on slight little clues that might fit in with what they would like to see happen, and (and it's a big AND) making assumptions based on desires (no, not of the flesh) when there is no canon to back it up. Shipping is just another assumption, like Umbridge being a DE. We can try to find things in the books to back up our assumptions but everyone interprets scenes or paragraphs or sentences differently. Personally, I like people disgreeing with me, because it lets me see that there are different ways of interpreting the same scene, and as I said before, half the time I agree with the person disagreeing with me, so work out how blonde I am (Oh no, don't start with blonde abuse pleeeease). I hope it was not something I wrote that you think was a flame, I do not do that, I do not agree with it at all. As long as people disagree with what I said and don't tell me or imply I'm an idiot for saying it, that's fine by me. I don't want to offend anyone. I like to throw some curve balls sometimes late at night when the evil fairy is sitting on my shoulder, just to see a reaction, but they would never be aimed at anyone personally. Sue (trying to purr now that the pigeons have decided to attack each other) _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. Get five times more storage - 10MB in your Hotmail account. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From phluxist at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 15:44:13 2003 From: phluxist at yahoo.com (phluxist) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:44:13 -0000 Subject: Book Six Titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78987 Phlux:"On July 24th a company by the name of "Seabottom Productions Limited" registered two trademarks by the names of "Harry Potter and the Mudblood Revolt" and "Harry Potter and the Quest of the Centaur". This company must be related to WB, since the HP trademark is now their property. I'm sure everyone has heard of the other book titles like "Harry Potter and the Alchemist's Cell", "Harry Potter and the Pyramids of Furmat", or "Harry Potter and the Chariots of Light", which were all patented just before the release of GoF, in 2000." Jim: "No way. An attempt to copyright any title in the form of "Harry Potter and.. would be null and void, unenforceable. J.K. Rowling and Warner Brothers, her assignee, would be the only parties who could do that. "Harry Potter" itself is a trademark, and nothing that tried to circumvent that trademark by adding something to it would have any validity at all. A Google search on "Seabottom Productions" turns up nothing outside of undersea exploration and so on. A Web search of the Patent and Trademark Office shows nothing. How would anybody think that this could possibly be true? JKR and Warner Brothers have all the rights to anything Harry Potter, period. Nobody else can use that name or anything based on it for any commercial purpose without WB's consent ($$$). This group exists under its name because discussion of literature and characters is 'fair use' and free speech and doesn't create confusion in the marketplace. Even so, WB tried to muscle in on HP websites and backed off only because they got bad press." Me again: I agree it seems dodgey, but here they are: http://webdb4.patent.gov.uk/tm/number? detailsrequested=C&trademark=E3278488 http://webdb4.patent.gov.uk/tm/number? detailsrequested=C&trademark=E3278355 Anyway, its interesting, whatever it means, Phlux From elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 19:53:12 2003 From: elizabeth1603 at yahoo.com (elizabeth1603) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:53:12 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78988 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "punkstarz85" < emmathelegend at h...> wrote: , when Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort try to duel, their wands refuse > because of their shared core > The Prophecy states something along the line of Harry or Voldemort > must murder the other for the remaining to live. However unless I'm > forgetting something, in order to do so, they must duel. I can't see > either going silently or unwillingly, can you? No, Harry and Voldie can't duel. There's also the slilghtly more complicating fact that Voldemort has made himself immortal, which is why many people have speculated that Harry will bring down Voldemort with what Dumbledore reffered to in OOP, the prophecy chapter, as a force more terrible than death, one that Harry posses and Voldie does not. Many people believe the force is love. Who knows? (Besides JK Rowling, that it.) > I'm curious to see how J.K Rowling is going to work around this! > Emma Me too. Elli From deadstop at wombatzone.com Wed Aug 27 20:25:10 2003 From: deadstop at wombatzone.com (Stacy Forsythe) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 16:25:10 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Digest Number 3690 In-Reply-To: <1062013306.21290.9441.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <4.3.2.20030827160157.00b0ac48@wombatzone.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78990 At 07:41 PM 8/27/2003 +0000, Carolina wrote: >Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:18:50 +0200 > From: Carolina >Subject: Re: Re: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA >Dementor Kiss on Harry) > > Steve: > > In the linear, unbiased, neutral timeline at the one and only > > time 9:00PM occurred, both Harry and Hermione, and time travel > > Harry and Hermione are there. Since TT!Harry is there, having > > arrived at 9pm, he is there and available at approx 11:30pm to > > save himself from the Dementors. > >9:00 PM only happens once, but the events taking place at 9:00 >change. Before HH went back in time, there was not footsteps, later >it changed so timeline changed to include HH footsteps. We only see >the changed version of events, wich include footsteps. You're mixing your theories, there. If you mean what the single-timeline theorists mean by "9:00 PM only happens once," you can't then turn around and say "the events taking place at 9:00 change." When a single-timeline theorist insists that "9:00 PM happens once," he means that there is only one set of events that occurs at 9PM. Nothing is changed or overwritten. Your version is actually proposing *two* 9:00s, one in which there was no second H&H (and thus no footsteps), which was subsequently overwritten by the "new" 9:00 that we saw in the book. The whole crux of the single-timeline theory is that there was no "first time through" in any sense, no chain of events "before" the time turner was used. The time turner inserts an extra copy of Harry and Hermione into the events of 9:00 PM -- the one and only 9:00 PM that takes place. No one -- not within the book, not among us readers -- observes or experiences a period in which only one Harry and Hermione live through the events of 9-12 PM that night, and thus there is no need for anyone else to have saved Harry from the dementors. Anyone who tried would find Harry (#2) already there doing it. > > From the perceived passing of > > time and in biological time, Harry and Hermione experience 9pm > > twice, but that is a perception that is relative to their point > > of view. > >One linear unbiased neutral timeline, multiple instances, what >Talisman said. Hermione ages, that's clear, I don't see how it >contradicts multiple instances. Depends on what you mean by "multiple instances." If you mean "Harry and Hermione experience 9-12 PM twice that night," then there's no problem (indeed, that's the data we're all working with from the book). If you mean "there was a period of 9-12 PM with only one Harry and Hermione that was then overwritten by another instance of the same period with two Harrys and two Hermiones," then you are contradicting the "one linear unbiased neutral timeline" premise. There is no way to display both "instances" on "one linear unbiased neutral timeline." > > Harry was always there because he arrived at 9pm in the linear > > unbiased timeline; saving himself occurred after 9pm. > >Harry couldn't have arrived at 9pm if dementorized. True. Fortunately, he was not dementorized. Do we at any time see a dementorized Harry? Nope. We see him saved from the dementors just in time. Thus, this concern is not a factor in the single-timeline theory. We see both Harrys at 11:30; one narrowly escapes being dementor food, and the other casts the patronus that saves the first one. If we are agreed that 11:30 only happens once, there is no need for any additional people in this scenario. Heh. Seems as though I only ever post to this list when there's a time-turner argument. Stacy Forsythe deadstop at wombatzone.com From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 20:46:23 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:46:23 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78991 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elizabeth1603" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "punkstarz85" < > emmathelegend at h...> wrote: > > , when Harry Potter and Lord Voldemort try to duel, their wands refuse because of their shared core > > No, Harry and Voldie can't duel. > > I'm curious to see how J.K Rowling is going to work around this! > Emma Sevvie here: If this was true, wouldn't everyone just jump poor old Fawkes and pluck him bald? So all the good guys could have phoenix feather wands? I think the wands still work but the fact that the beams came in contact is where the trouble started with the similar core materials. And Harry did use his force of will to push LV's AK back into his wand, and that is when the spell regurgitation thing took place. If either beam would have struck home, then the requested result would have happened, unless Harry did the boy who lived thing again. Just my opinion. But I think, if this is true, Fawkes better start watching his tail feathers. Severus "Here, Fawkesy... Where is that bird?" Snape From kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk Wed Aug 27 20:54:12 2003 From: kcawte at blueyonder.co.uk (Kathryn Cawte) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:54:12 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prophecy Contradiction References: Message-ID: <3F4D1A74.000001.10589@monica> No: HPFGUIDX 78992 Sevvie here: If this was true, wouldn't everyone just jump poor old Fawkes and pluck him bald? So all the good guys could have phoenix feather wands? I think the wands still work but the fact that the beams came in contact is where the trouble started with the similar core materials. And Harry did use his force of will to push LV's AK back into his wand, and that is when the spell regurgitation thing took place. If either beam would have struck home, then the requested result would have happened, unless Harry did the boy who lived thing again. Just my opinion. But I think, if this is true, Fawkes better start watching his tail feathers. K - Exactly what I was going to say (well except for the endangered!Fawkes thing ). The effect happened because they both cast a spell at the same time. However I doubt it'll be a problem in future because after GoF Voldemort would have to be dumber than a rock to insist on duelling fairly with Harry again (not beyond the realms of possibility admittedly but if he does then I vote we get together and send him a copy of the evil overlord list). One of them will strike first or while the other's back is turned or something, or one will lose/break their wand. Or possibly Harry will just pull out a big gun and try his Dirty Harry impersonation. (am I the only one that thinks the Aurors would be better off training their members to use high-tech sniper rifles and waiting for the next time Voldemort summons his minions?) K From manawydan at ntlworld.com Wed Aug 27 18:07:21 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:07:21 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Muggle Practices/Religion References: <1061932829.4759.96151.m9@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002a01c36cc6$0f8673e0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 78993 Deirdre: > Actually, Christains are following Pagan rituals when they celebrate > Christmas and Easter. Christ's historical birth isn't December 25 -- > missionaries hijacked the pagan celebration of winter solstice. Likewise, > the spring solstice, occuring as it does so close to Passover, was hijacked > for the historically marked crucificition and ascention. All the attendant > imagery -- rebirth, et al -- Pagan! > > Pagan = Wiccan = Witch > > Christmas and Easter, then, I would think, are acutally wizard holidays that > Muggles have reinterpreted at Christian rituals. Though of course there is as little support in canon for the WW being Pagan as there is for it being Christian. Dumbledore doesn't invoke the Goddess at times of celebration, but nor does he sing hymns. The picture which I get is of a world (the Muggle bit as well as the wizard bit) which used to have religion but now just has secular celebrations which have religious roots but no religious content. Just as a Victorian gentleman in our world might have said "By Jove" or " By Jiminy" without considering himself a follower of the Roman pantheon, or as the Scottish legal profession had a "Beltane Term" without by that token being Celtic Pagans, so too the WW can celebrate Christmas and Samhain without them being acts of worship. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Wed Aug 27 21:24:26 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:24:26 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion In-Reply-To: <002a01c36cc6$0f8673e0$db7d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78994 <>Ffred said: > Though of course there is as little support in canon for the WW being Pagan > as there is for it being Christian. Dumbledore doesn't invoke the Goddess at > times of celebration, but nor does he sing hymns. I don't have the books in front of me but I believe that in SS during the Christmas Holiday the ghosts were singing "Oh Come, All Ye Faithful". Is this a hymn? I still think Ffred is correct, there is very little canon to support any particular religion or religious beliefs. Lliannanshe http://lliannanshe.blog-city.com From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 21:30:49 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:30:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78995 I applaud the effort. However, the problem I have with this is in the battle near the fountain of the MOM why wouldn't have DD have allowed LV to kill Harry (thus making him mortal) and THEN finish LV before he knew what hit him? Game set match. However... that didn't happen which leads me to beleive that the answer isn't necessairly in your explaination. From stevejjen at earthlink.net Wed Aug 27 21:48:07 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:48:07 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78996 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elizabeth1603" wrote: > > No, Harry and Voldie can't duel. There's also the slilghtly more complicating > fact that Voldemort has made himself immortal, which is why many people > have speculated that Harry will bring down Voldemort with what Dumbledore > reffered to in OOP, the prophecy chapter, as a force more terrible than death, > one that Harry posses and Voldie does not. Voldemort isn't immortal anymore, though. In GOF he tells the DE's: "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing immortality. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body back again, and my old strength." So, that was his plan since he couldn't steal the SS/PS and become immortal. I DO wonder about the wand thing, whether they can duel. Dumbledore states in GOF, when asked by Sirius what happens when a wand meets its brother: "They will not work properly against each other...If however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle...a very rare effect will take place." Then he goes on to describe Priori Incantatem. That seems ambiguous though. Do wands of the same core work "improperly," which indicates any number of problems might develop, or will it only result in *priori incantatem*? Also, I'm wondering now whether Voldemort would have been able to kill Harry in OOTP when he AK's him---can a wand kill the person who owns the brother wand, or is it just the wands themselves that can't "do battle?" We do know Voldemort can use his wand to Crucio Harry. I've just been doubting Voldemort as a powerful villian recently b/c he's seemed so inept around Harry, but now I'm wondering if his wand doesn't actually work on Harry, perhaps because he owns the brother wand, or perhaps some result of "the curse that failed." Back to do more research on wands in the Fantastic Post section! Jen From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 27 21:56:57 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 21:56:57 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78997 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "elizabeth1603" > wrote: > > > > > No, Harry and Voldie can't duel. There's also the slilghtly more > complicating > > fact that Voldemort has made himself immortal, which is why many > people > > have speculated that Harry will bring down Voldemort with what > Dumbledore > > reffered to in OOP, the prophecy chapter, as a force more terrible > than death, > > one that Harry posses and Voldie does not. > > > Voldemort isn't immortal anymore, though. In GOF he tells the > DE's: "But I was willing to embrace mortal life again, before chasing > immortality. I set my sights lower...I would settle for my old body > back again, and my old strength." So, that was his plan since he > couldn't steal the SS/PS and become immortal. > > I DO wonder about the wand thing, whether they can duel. Dumbledore > states in GOF, when asked by Sirius what happens when a wand meets > its brother: "They will not work properly against each other...If > however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle...a > very rare effect will take place." Then he goes on to describe > Priori Incantatem. > > That seems ambiguous though. Do wands of the same core > work "improperly," which indicates any number of problems might > develop, or will it only result in *priori incantatem*? Also, I'm > wondering now whether Voldemort would have been able to kill Harry in > OOTP when he AK's him---can a wand kill the person who owns the > brother wand, or is it just the wands themselves that can't "do > battle?" We do know Voldemort can use his wand to Crucio Harry. Geoff: I think the important point here is "they will not work /against each other/. If one of the wands is used independently then it will work - viz Voldemort's use of the Cruciatus Curse, mentioned above. It's when they come into eyeball to eyeball contact, so to speak, that they refuse to work. From Batchevra at aol.com Wed Aug 27 19:00:31 2003 From: Batchevra at aol.com (Batchevra at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:00:31 EDT Subject: Sirius/Snuffle, Dementors (was Re: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!) Message-ID: <2b.46a6a689.2c7e59cf@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 78998 Batchevra: > I just snipped this part to make an observation. Before the Dementors show up at the Quidditch match in POA, Harry sees a black dog way up in the stands watching the match. (Page 133, POA Uk) Could it be that the Dementors sensed Sirius Black up in the stands? and were facing up because of that? Just another thought to ponder. > > Fran: > Sirius did use Snuffles to get out of Azkaban so its unlikely. I > dont think the dementors can detect Sirius when changes into a dog. POA, Pg. 272 uk. Sirius says, "I could transform in my cell... become a dog. Dementors can't see, you know..." he swallowed. " They feel their way towards people by sensing their emotions... they could tell that my feelings were less-less human, less complex when I was a dog..." That says to me that the Dementors could feel Sirius when he was a dog and that they could have sensed him in the Quidditch stadium. Batchevra From gbannister10 at aol.com Wed Aug 27 22:02:47 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:02:47 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 78999 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Lliannanshe" wrote: Lliannanshe: > I don't have the books in front of me but I believe that in SS during > the Christmas Holiday the ghosts were singing "Oh Come, All Ye > Faithful". Is this a hymn? > > No, they didn't. I also checked COS and POA and found nothing. In GOF however: "...and the suits of armour had all been bewitched to sing carols whenever anyone passed them. It was quite something to hear 'O Come, All Ye Faithful' sung by an empty helmet that only knew half the words." I think in PS, you may be thinking of the film (sssh don't tell the moderators) where the ghosts sing their own Christmas Song. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 22:03:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:03:20 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself In-Reply-To: <200308272118.50909.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79000 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: > Steve: > > In the linear, unbiased, neutral timeline at the one and only > > time 9:00PM occurred, both Harry and Hermione, and time travel > > Harry and Hermione are there. Since TT!Harry is there, having > > arrived at 9pm, he is there and available at approx 11:30pm to > > save himself from the Dementors. > Carolina: > > 9:00 PM only happens once, but the events taking place at 9:00 > change. Before HH went back in time, there was not footsteps, later > it changed so timeline changed to include HH footsteps. We only see > the changed version of events, which include footsteps. > bboy_mn: I understand that you are trying to get me to see these events from an alternate perspective, but I'm not swayed. I am firmly entrenched in the idea that time only occurs one. That time marches ever forward. That every yesterday is followed by today, and every today is followed by tomorrow. It is not time that goes back, it is people who go back. If I do understand you correctly, you are in the 'it happened twice' camp. And are saying that the version of 9PM that I see is the final resulting version of 9PM, and in that, you are implying that I am missing, or ignoring, all the previous versions of 9PM that lead up to that final version. That is a valid theory, and in the realm of fiction, is possible, but is it likely? In that light, I say, the book doesn't seem to support your theory In the book, we have one and only one account of time, although that one account is given from two perspectives. In the one and only account of the neutral unbias timeline, at approximately 9PM, TT!Harry and TT!Hermione (TT!=Time Travel) hear Harry/Hermione/Ron in the entrance hall, AND at a slightly different time, Harry/Hermione/Ron hear TT!Harry and TT!Hermione running into the broom cupboard to hide. This hearing of footstep is a big CLUE that JKR drops to let us know that TT!Harry-the Saver was there at 9PM, although something we don't realize until after the fact, and being there, he was available to save himself approx. 2.5 hours later. I see TT!Harry entering the timeline at 9pm as a historical event. As the timeline moved forward that night, TT!Harry's appearance at approx. 9PM became a historically documented event, and in that sense, I take it as a absolute fact; absolute fictional fact. > > bboy_mn org: > > From the perceived passing of time and in biological time, Harry > > and Hermione experience 9pm twice, but that is a perception that > > is relative to their point of view. > Carolina responds: > > One linear unbiased neutral timeline, multiple instances, what > Talisman said. Hermione ages, that's clear, I don't see how it > contradicts multiple instances. > > bboy_mn org: > > Harry was always there because he arrived at 9pm in the linear > > unbiased timeline; saving himself occurred after 9pm. > > Harry couldn't have arrived at 9pm if dementorized. > > ...edited... > > silmariel bboy_mn: By 'multiple instance' are you referring to the 'it happened twice' theory? One instance without TT!Harry and one instance with? Although, I see it now, that may not have been the way I originally interpreted 'multiple instance'; I concede I may have confused the point. My test for subjective truth, or validation of theories, in not is it possible, because I concede that it is possible, but is it likely? The problem with the 'it happened twice' theory is that it leaves questions unresolved. You bring up the very question that makes that theory, while possible, very unlikely. If, in the first instance of time, Harry was kissed by the Dementor then he would not have the functional capability to send himself back in time to save himself. Even if he could have been sent back in time, he would have gone as a mindless soulless zombie, and could not have helped himself. This is an unresolvable paradox; damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. The only way to resolve this conflict, is to accept linear 'time happens once' as a solution. That's the very reason I am so firmly entrench in this theory, because it has the fewest, or in my opinion no, unresolvable problems. So barring an ongoing misunderstandings on my part, I get 'it happened twice', I just don't accept it. Just a thought. bboy_mn, who is always up for a good time travel discussion even though he knows it can never be resolved. From ioogooi at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 19:15:53 2003 From: ioogooi at yahoo.com (ioogooi) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:15:53 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79001 Wanda wrote: > I have no > problem with the small amount of "decorative" Christian influence > she's introduced so far; "God bless you, merry Hippogriffs" just > struck me as a joke, and the references to Christmas and Easter > vacations, it seems to me, are just methods of carrying over Muggle > normality into the WW. If she called them "Solstice Holidays", we'd notice it too much and think that she was making some serious point about wizard beliefs and worship; this way, it just points up the similarity between the two worlds. They have holidays just like we do. C.S. Lewis did this in 'The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe', > where Narnia was a land imprisoned by a witch so that it was always > winter, "but never Christmas". One just accepts this; if you try to figure out how a world that doesn't know Christ can have Christmas, > the whole story just comes to a stop. >>> Hi Wanda, It's funny that you mentioned C.S. Lewis, because he's a writer that was very interested in Christianity. He might be the exact opposite of JK Rowling in terms of putting religions themes and values into his stories. While Rowling doesn't go extensively into religion, it does reflect certain modern attitudes to religion. And I don't think it's all that fatal to talk about religion in the Harry Potter books. I think it makes the story more interesting and indepth, even if it's only extraneous speculation from the reader's end. Liz From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Wed Aug 27 22:08:36 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:08:36 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79002 Elkins wrote: > (c) dark magic may well have a corrosive power over those > who use it even above and beyond the normal levels of > moral degradation that accompany the commission of > evil acts. Well, I have always found it difficult to understand what is meant by 'dark magic' if not that. It seems relatively easy to hurt or kill someone - at least Muggles - by magic, but that doesn't apparently make it *dark* magic. Whereas some magic (such as hatching a Basilisk, IIRC) is dark whatever the intention, apparently. That said, 'dark' still seems to fall short of 'unforgivable', and I think it's plausible that Bellatrix's comment gives something of an explanation. Though I hope in JKR's moral universe evil intent + dark magic + actual harm don't amount to actual unforgivability. David From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 19:31:52 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:31:52 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungos ( was Re: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79003 Brief Chronicles: > The bubblegum wrapper makes me really wonder. There has to be a > reason Neville's mom handed it to him ... > What could bubblegum symbolize? Hasn't she given him a lot of them already? Do the wrappers say anything on them? Have we ever heard of bubblegum wrappers before in the series? Could bubblegum be a device to save the world from LV? ;) > > James Redmont: > I don't have any strong theory on what the > significance of the gum actually is, only that it probably *is* > significant. Actually, I think I'll look up what effects the gum > has...I think they were the ones that made the giant bubbles that > wouldn't pop or something (correct me if I'm wrong). I'd like to > know where they're getting this gum in the first place! Maybe Great Uncle Algie's sending it, and maybe he's put some kind of plant > extract in it that's making them stay insane. Or maybe Alice knows > that Gran is giving Neville some gum that's tainted, maybe it makes > him clumsy/forgetful. >>> I've tried to pin it on Gran, wondering if she were keeping everyone mute, so to speak, and I can't see it. She really chastises Neville for being forgetful and clumsy. And she's extremely proud of her son. (Unless it's all a front? An evil cover-up? Is she a DE? etc...) I've searched the environment of Mungo's, and can find no piped-in music, no smells, see no plates or cups. The one notable thing about the environment is the bubbles that have the candles in them for light. I also noticed that in the chapter right after the second Mungo's scene, within a few paragraphs, Sirius' gloom is infecting everyone in the house like a noxious gas seeping through the cracks into every room (paraphrased, don't have book handy). I must admit I'm obsessive enough to have spent the past couple of weeks trying to determine what Drooble's Best Blowing Gum could read when anagramed. It's entirely possible for it to reveal a lot -- or for it to be an opportunity for JK to say "gotcha!" I believe that Luna's reading the runes upside down should lead us to closely examine the wrappers. Unless there's something Alice has written on them (that we haven't seen) or something printed on there (that we haven't seen, then it's in Drooble's Best Blowing Gum. Did JK deliberately call it "Drooble's Blowing Gum" in that scene to slow down any hopeful anagram sleuths? Or did it simply lend itself better to the literary ear? I'm a SILK GOWNer all the way! "hermionegallo" From pokeypokey at comcast.net Wed Aug 27 19:49:49 2003 From: pokeypokey at comcast.net (angelberri56) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:49:49 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79004 This is really random, and probably has nothing to do with Harry, but I just thought I might put it out there.... I was reading a post about Lily's eyes, and a thought just popped into my head. In "The Secret Garden", which is a musical, and also a book, there's a song called "Lily's Eyes"... It goes something like... "He has her eyes, He has Lily's hazel eyes..." (I can't remember anymore!) Anyway... it's talking about two characters- Colin and Lily. The song is about how Colin has his (dead) mother's eyes. Make of this what you will... just thought I'd bring it up~! Thanks **angelberri56** From swirskyr at rogers.com Wed Aug 27 19:54:33 2003 From: swirskyr at rogers.com (happyduck1979) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:54:33 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79005 Emma "punkstarz85" wrote: > The Prophecy states something along the line of Harry or Voldemort > must murder the other for the remaining to live. However unless I'm > forgetting something, in order to do so, they must duel. I can't see either going silently or unwillingly, can you? > > I'm curious to see how J.K Rowling is going to work around this! There is nothing to work around. Wizards do not need to duel to kill each other... one can sneak up behind the other or take him or her by surprise. More than this, wands battling in my mind means that both spells need to be cast at precisely the same moment. Thus they meet in midair and the effect takes place. There is also the possibility that one of the two might at some point need to use a wand not their own. Rachel From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 20:51:38 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:51:38 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!/Stop Making Excuses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79006 "maneelyfh" wrote: > EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES. You guys are making excuses for Fudge. When you constantly make excuses for someone, the is something very wrong. Explain why when the 10 DE's escape in OOTP, Fudge did not send Dementors out to hunt for them. He did when Sirius escaped. Also, Fudge conviently blames Sirius for the breakout. So Fudge only cares about his own butt, and not the saftey of those in the WW. If you don't believe he is a DE, then he is just as evil as LV. >>> me: I'm not making excuses for Fudge. I think he is awful. I just don't happen to think he is a DE. I agree with your last statement, that he is just as evil as LV. Fudge is willing to sacrifice innocent people and cover up the truth to save his own butt and maintain his grip as minister of magic. He is as in love with power as LV and the DEs are, but I really don't believe he is in cahoots with them. I think JKR is trying to show all the factors that go into an awful political/societal situation. Things are not black and white all time... to bring truly evil people to power it takes not only the leader but also those who support that leader, those who look the other way, and those whose only concern is self-preservation. "serious_schwartz" From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Aug 27 22:32:19 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:32:19 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Time Travel In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20030827160157.00b0ac48@wombatzone.com> References: <4.3.2.20030827160157.00b0ac48@wombatzone.com> Message-ID: <200308280032.04911.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 79007 Stacy Forsythe << You're mixing your theories, there. If you mean what the single-timeline theorists mean by "9:00 PM only happens once," you can't then turn around and say "the events taking place at 9:00 change." Of course I don't mean it, but the phrase is correct, 9:00 PM only happens once, I'm using more or less the same theory that Asimov describes in 'End of Eternity', what I say is, if you write a straight line as the timeline, there is only one point that can be labeled as 9:00 PM, so it onlu happens twice. There is only containment for a set of events. The set can be changed. The set of events include "Harry and Hermione experience 9-12 PM twice that night". It's common in time travel to have people overstepping themselves. Multiple instances of individuals, isn't it? <> I understand a linear, one timeline, as time being a dimension that can be represented in the x axis, so there is only one 9:00 PM. Nothing prevents you from going twice though the axis, or for changing the function to adapt to reality if events in the single timeline have changed. It is neutral and unbiased. It is only a timeline. <> Of course. Because we only read the second set of facts. silmariel From aeshamali at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 22:41:52 2003 From: aeshamali at yahoo.com (Aesha Williams) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:41:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why the metamorphoses? (was Voldemort Will Win) In-Reply-To: <1061964313.5345.18385.m10@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030827224152.27299.qmail@web80708.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79008 Maus came up with a very interesting theory, and it seems to me highly plausible. As I was reading it, he mentioned the Big Character Flaw about Voldemort that's been drilled constantly into our heads: That he cannot feel love. If this is true... then why does he care? I mean, why did he become the Dark Lord? I thought it was in defiance of his muggle father; to pay him back for leaving his mother, a witch and descendant of Salazar Slytherin. Did he at one time love, feel pain, and that's what started him on this path? And through time, human emotion ceased to exist within him? If he never really felt love or pain, then why does he care about his father leaving his mother, or the fact that his mother died...? Is it simply because he then had to grow up in an orphanage, and was treated rather badly there? I am curious to know more about Voldemort now. I wasn't really so curious before... but now I'd like to know who his family was. I mean, it seems likely that his mother was a pureblood witch. As we've heard, all the pureblood families are interrelated, so even though Tom Riddle is a half blood (seemingly unbeknownst to his followers), the Slytherin family before him was surely pretty close to pure-blooded (though of course there may have been the occasional rebel, besides his mother). So I'm just curious why Tom Riddle chose this path of darkness to follow, if he was unfeeling to begin with... Aesha --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From entropymail at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 22:01:11 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:01:11 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79010 Sevvie "severusbook4" here: > If this was true, wouldn't everyone just jump poor old Fawkes and > pluck him bald? So all the good guys could have phoenix feather > wands? I think the wands still work but the fact that the beams > came in contact is where the trouble started with the similar core > materials. And Harry did use his force of will to push LV's AK back > into his wand, and that is when the spell regurgitation thing took > place. If either beam would have struck home, then the requested > result would have happened, unless Harry did the boy who lived thing > again. Just my opinion. But I think, if this is true, Fawkes better > start watching his tail feathers. >>> My turn: Love the visual of plucking Fawkes bald, Sev, but there must be some reason they can't do this; some pre-ordained plucking statute or something. But, just because the two wands can't duel with each other, doesn't really mean that Harry and Voldemort can't duel. Harry could get another wand (when Ron's wand is damaged, McGonagall tells him it "needs to be replaced"), although I doubt that this would happen, as too much importance has been put on the fact that Harry was meant to have this particular wand in Ollivander's. Or, he could use someone else's wand to duel. Or, of course, he could just sneak up on Voldie from behind and hit him with a zap or two when he least expects it. No duel required. "entropymail" From aeshamali at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 22:49:22 2003 From: aeshamali at yahoo.com (Aesha Williams) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 15:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emma's post on a mistake in the prophecy In-Reply-To: <1062013306.21290.9441.m12@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030827224922.59301.qmail@web80703.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79011 I apologize for the blank post. :( Emma said: The Prophecy states something along the line of Harry or Voldemort must murder the other for the remaining to live. However unless I'm forgetting something, in order to do so, they must duel. I can't see either going silently or unwillingly, can you? Now me: I don't think this is really negates the prophecy, or creates a FLINT or anything. There's plenty of ways to kill someone without dueling with them. You could use the AK, send them a little bit of devil's snare, heck, you could drop an anvil on them if you wanted. So I don't think that the fact that priori incantatem took effect will really matter, because I think Voldemort would be smart enough to think of some other way to get rid of Harry (and I think he'd probably use the AK, since he's missed Harry with it twice now!) Aesha --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From elrond at paradise.net.nz Wed Aug 27 22:35:34 2003 From: elrond at paradise.net.nz (Michael Chance) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:35:34 +1200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] RE: Harry's Sexual Preference References: Message-ID: <001e01c36ceb$cc7f1220$0b444fcb@locxvcym> No: HPFGUIDX 79012 From: "Donna" > Okay! Okay! Enough already about Harry being gay. We really won't > know until we hear it from JKR. It is wonderful to debate these > points, but we have no canon to support that. There is cannon is support just about anything - a lot of it depends how the person reads it, their generalised viewpoint, etc etc etc..... :) > I think it is high time we got back to the original thread. The > SHIPs between the characters. We are! :) Personally don't think Harry, or Ron or Hermione is gay, but that doesn't stop from liking threads like this one and I'd be very upset if people stopped talking about things like this simply because other people don't like reading about the possibility of any of the characters being gay :( Out of all of the younger characters the only one I can easily picture being gay is Justin FF, as he was the only boy who fawned over Lockhart in CoS if I remember correctly. (He was certainly the only boy who came across as liking Lockhart instead of thinking he was a complete git :) ) Michael http://chance.slashcity.net/ From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 22:52:00 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:52:00 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: <3F4BF309.5070906@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79013 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > Thing is, JKR's Wizards are NOT Wiccans. Sorry, but you missed my point, which was that Wicca is modern, even if it derives from a number of historical threads. I did not say, nor imply, that the WW of JKR's works are in any way Wiccan. Ergo, your comments are a bit out of left field. Richard From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 22:55:59 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:55:59 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79014 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > Elkins wrote: > > > (c) dark magic may well have a corrosive power over those > > who use it even above and beyond the normal levels of > > moral degradation that accompany the commission of > > evil acts. > > Well, I have always found it difficult to understand what is meant > by 'dark magic' if not that. > > ...edited... > > That said, 'dark' still seems to fall short of 'unforgivable', and I > think it's plausible that Bellatrix's comment gives something of an > explanation. ...edited... > > David bboy_mn: If you want to read two really good discussion of the nature of Dark Magic, try these- Feb 18, 2003 - Dark Magic and Evil (WAS: Grindelwald and evil) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/52468 Mar 9, 2003 - What Defines Dark Magic? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/53527 Of course, having no life and way to much time to think, I weigh in heavily in both threads. If you are interested in the concept of evil in general, go UP THREAD on the 'Dark Magic and Evil (WAS: Grindelwald and evil)' post and it will take you to the 'Grindelwald and Evil' thread. It's really too bad Yahoo's search capability isn't better, there really is a lot of good stuff in some of the old discussions. The only way I can ever find anything is to search for my screenname in combination with key topic words, even then, I sometimes wade through hundreds of old post to find the one I want. Well, like it or not, it's what we have to work with. I would suggest to anyone who is new, if you find someone who's opinions you like or are interested in, try searching for their screen names and keywords of other subject you are interested in. Example: you like 'bboy_mn' and his opinions on 'Dark Magic', but are currently interested in wands then search 'bboy_mn wands'. Of course, substituting the approriate names and keywords that suit you. Just a thought. bboy_mn From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 22:58:14 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:58:14 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79015 Thus wrote bboy_mn (Steve): > Exactly how old do you think Christmas is? 100 years? 500 years? > 1,000 years? No. Try 1,650 years old. Actually, it's a little older than that, as an "official" thing, but not by much. Having been raised by theologian, I'm pretty well versed in this ... your list ignored some Coptic and Syrian citations, if memory serves. So, please, don't leap to conclusions about what I might or might not know. bboy_mn continued: > Why is it so hard to believe that wizards might have heard about it? > True Christmas and Easter were ancient pagan holidays that EVOLVED > into the current Christian holidays, but why can't you believe the > wizards evolved their tradition too. > I see no reason why the ancient pagen rites of wizards and witches > would not have evolved with the advent, introduction, and wide > spread acceptance of Christianity. Remember that wizards and > witches have not always been separated from Muggles. They have > gone through cycles of being integrated and separated. Certainly, > a 1650 year old tradition could have easily crept into their > culture. I don't find it hard at all to believe this. I would EXPECT it to be the case. The problems is that the Wizarding World would surely retain more identification of pagan or "classically" magical rites, astronomical events, etc., as such, were such of real significance to that WW. Instead, we find the thin slice of the WW we see celebrating events that are identifiably Christian in origin. It would also seem logical for the WW to start a slow reversion back to more classically magical celebrations and observances (after all, not all those assorted events and rites were "celebrated," as in some regions and religions they could get a little bloody) as the divide between the WW and the Muggle World widened ... regardless of how old or recent that divide may in canon be. The magic of the JKR WW is, so far as we've seen, devoid of invocation of spirit outside one's self and one's wand. Some things must be done at precise lunar times, of course, but there has been no invocation of "The Goddess," or of spirits, or demons, etc. The only spirits we've seen are ghosts, a poltergeist and lots of booze. (How ANY creature could live drinking nothing but single malt scotch is beyond me. You've GOT to have some cognac and port, once in a while, not to mention the occasional Cajun Bloody Mary.) On the other hand, we have those lyrics ... "God rest ye merry hippogriffs ..." and "O Come All ye Faithful ..." (Forgive me if I got the lyrics a little off ... no text at hand ...) Thus, I don't see how pagan beliefs, holy days, rites, etc., got into this. I stand by my earlier comment that to me, religion has really nothing to do with this fictional WW, apart from being part of the cultural heritage that makes it a bit more familiar to the reader than a world devoid of such references. I see Christmas, Easter and such as being present more to show the flow of time than as making any statement either way. Richard From silmariel at telefonica.net Wed Aug 27 23:04:06 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:04:06 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308280103.50787.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 79016 bboy_mn:: << That time marches ever forward. That every yesterday is followed by today, and every today is followed by tomorrow. It is not time that goes back, it is people who go back. I agree. In this books happens this way. <> Yes, to reconstruct the facts is a detective work. Maybe is why I like it, because it makes me think, I know by heart the 'timeline can't be changed' argument and I find it too simple. And thank you, it is enough that is valid. <> No, I was instancing the characters, not the timeline. Multiple timelines going wild gives me the chills, but in a sense yes, because I concede there was a situation where HH hadn't travel back in time. <> That was the point of Talisman, that Snape was there pretending to be unconscious, and he saved Harry the first time. I quote her: "Understand that (#78370,) and you understand that someone else saved Harry. Couple that with Snape's traditional "save Harry " role, and the other points in messages #78215 and 78258, and you've got my view of it." There's a dementor&occlumency lesson that contains a interpretable snape face, but I don't know the name of that thread. silmariel From annabellejane97 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 23:04:14 2003 From: annabellejane97 at yahoo.com (Anna) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:04:14 -0000 Subject: Harry & Sirius - certain similarities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79017 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > I was thinking last night that there are an extraordinary number of > similarities between Harry and Sirius. Just to play devil's advocate, I think there is an important difference in attitide between 15 year old Harry and 15 year old Sirius. >From what we see in Snape's Worst Memory, Sirius is pretty darn self confident...er....arrogant. Can't you just picture him in his OWL exam leaning back in his chair with a smug "I aced that exam without even studying" expression on his face. Harry, on the other hand, is not so self confident. Throughout his OWLs, it seems that Harry is continually having to reassure himself that, although things may have gone a bit wrong, for the most part he probably did okay. ***** I think 15 year old Sirius knew he was a hottie and wouldn't have had the same girl trouble that Harry experienced with Cho. I imagine Sirius would have asked Cho out something like this - Sirius: Cho. You. Me. Frilly tea shop. Valentine's day. Be there. Cho, too overwhelmed to speak, nods and thinks to herself - Cedric? What Cedric? ***** Although Sirius and Harry both are advanced in magic as teenagers, they use their abilities to achieve different ends. Harry uses his abilities to save the wizarding world from the most evil wizard that ever existed. As we see in Snape's Worst Memory, Sirius uses his abilities to stem boredom. 'I'm bored,' said Sirius. 'Wish it was full moon.' 'You might,' said Lupin darkly from behind his book. 'We've still got Transfiguration, if you're bored you could test me. Here " and he held out his book. But Sirius snorted. 'I don't need to look at that rubbish, I know it all. Just a thought... Anna From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 23:05:44 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:05:44 -0000 Subject: Book Six Titles In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79018 Phlux:" Phlux:"On July 24th a company by the name of "Seabottom Productions Limited" registered two trademarks by the names of "Harry Potter and the Mudblood Revolt" and "Harry Potter and the Quest of the Centaur". This company must be related to WB, since the HP trademark is now their property." Me:" How would anybody think that this could possibly be true? JKR and Warner Brothers have all the rights to anything Harry Potter, period. Nobody else can use that name or anything based on it for any commercial purpose without WB's consent ($$$)." I mentioned that Google searches on Seabottom Productions turned up nothing and that a search of the *US* Patent and Trademark Office was a blank. I didn't think of the UK office. It still makes no sense. No one has to register a prospective book title ahead of time ? JKR never did ? and if some smart aleck tried it in the hope of forcing JKR to pony up money for the name, it wouldn't survive in court for a moment. In the US, at least, having a registration is not a government imprimatur that a name is yours ? it can be challenged. I still don't get it; if Seabottom is an arm of WB, why the charade, and why register the trademark in the UK but not the US? Something isn't right. You're right, it's dodgy. Jim Ferer From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 23:09:30 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:09:30 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself (was: POA Dementor Kiss on Harry) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79019 I (Laurasia) originally wrote: > Your premise that we are always stuck with a soul-sucked Harry unless someone else saves him relies on one thing- that there has to be a `first time' that time occurs in which no-one has gone back in time. Talisman responded: >Indeed, every one of your theories acknowledges the same >premise. Me (Laurasia) now: No, actually, they don't. Read what I what again: I wrote: >When you turn over the time-turner you get transported back in time. > Time has not moved backwards, rather *you* have been transported > through it. Time occurs only once; it's only people that can > experience it more than once. The whole point of this theory is that time only occurs once. There are two Harrys and Hermiones in it, but time occurred only once. Time wasn't rewound or replayed. There were two Harrys and two Hermiones, but from the external point of view time occurred only once. Sure, Harry and Hermione lived through 27 hours consecutively, but that day was only 24 hours long. bboy_mn wrote this, and it explains what I am saying so perfectly, that I'd like for you to read it: >We have one immutable source of time which is neutral and independant, >marching ever forward; I call that the timeline. Then we have people's >perception of that passage of time, and we have time as a biological >event; the wearing down of the human body. Talisman wrote : >Sounds like one time/multiple experiences to me. And you are still >showing an accrual of experiences, yet you try to deny the need to >deal with a first instance of a sucked-if-not-saved Harry experience. There is no need to deal with a first instance of a sucked-if-not- saved Harry experience because there was no first time when Harry2 wasn't there. Whilst we experience the narrative from Harry's point of view, from and external point of view Harry was always there, sneaking around the edge of the Forbidden Forest. You use the words `first instance-' the whole point of this theory is that there *is* *no* first instance of events. There is only *one.* Talisman originally wrote: >Even if time travel ultimately results in a single, albeit >modified, reality, I maintain that you have to be functional to >initiate the cycle. But! I'm not saying that time has *ultimately* resulted in a single `modified' reality at all. I'm saying that time *was* *always* that single reality. It wasn't `modified' at all- it was the way it from the start. It occurred only once. It was never changed. Harry2 and Hermione2 were there at 9pm. 9pm occurred only once. It was never rewound and replayed. It was never modified. I'm repeating myself- but this is the most crucial part of the theory. I see that our definitions of what it means to have a single reality are not consistent. I'm guessing from your comments that you think a singular reality just means that there is one timeline. You are forgetting that the nature of how the time-turner works greatly impacts on this. In my original post I described three different versions of how the time-turner works. In the first one I allowed the time-turner to rewind reality. In this instance there is only one timeline. It could be considered `a single reality' because all action takes place on the same timeline- the time-turner just rewinds and presses play again. HOWEVER, it is not a self-consistent timeline that would enable Harry to save himself. You are correct in saying that on this `one timeline' version of reality there is no way of Harry to save himself. In the `first time' that time occurs Harry gets soul-sucked. Therefore he is not alive to rewind time to prevent himself getting soul-sucked. We are agreed on this point. The self-consistent singular timeline version is vastly different. Instead of rewinding time and letting it happen again (overriding what had already occurred) it *was* *always* *like* *that.* The time- turner moves Harry and Hermione through space. The time-turner does not repeat time. Time has _not_ `resulted' in a singular, albeit modified version of reality at all- it was always like that from the start. They were really there. From the point of view of an external observer time occurs only once in a continuous straight line. 9pm occurred only once. It was _not_ experienced firstly as a version without Time-Turner!Harry in it. He was always there. You spent a good deal of time trying to debunk the singular timeline theory. However, you only debunked *one* singular timeline theory. This is a completely different theory- I thought that I made that clear in my original post by clearly showing you how you could have a singular timeline, but still a soul-sucked Harry. You still have not let go of the idea of having a `first time.' In this self-consistent version of events there was no `first time' in which Harry had no yet gone back in time. There was one and only one time and Harry was always there. Your theory that `unless someone else saves Harry we are always stuck with a soul sucked Harry' is *wrong.* There *is* a way of Harry to save himself. I have just described it above. You original post (78370) did not discredit this theory at all. In fact, it didn't even acknowledge that this theory exists. Your original post proved how Harry can't save himself in a singular-timeline version of events *where* *the* *time-turner* *moves* *time* *backwards* and new version of events overrides the old version. You did not even acknowledge that there is an interpretation of the events in which Time occurs only once and there is never a `first time.' This is the self-consistent version of Time-Travel that allows Harry to save himself- because he really did go back to 9pm when it was occurring for the first and only time. Therefore, when he cast his Patronus over the lake it was the first and only time anyone had *ever* cast a Patronus over the lake because _9pm_ _occurred_ _only_ _once_. I'm not saying that your version of events is wrong. I'm saying that your blatant disregard for any other theory is wrong. Talsiman wrote: >You are still confusing yourself with the word "time." And to avoid >a hopeless reiteration of the mess, just look at the initial step in >your "great de-bunking" theory, and I quote you: "When you turn over the time-turner you get transported back in time." And what's wrong with that??? You get transported *back* *in* *time.* Not making time *go* *backwards.* Harry and Hermione get picked up and placed in the actual events. The only time they actually occur. They haven't rewound and then replaced the events that they just experienced from a different point of view. They are actually interacting with them- back in time. Talisman wrote: >Go ahead and pitch a time-turner through the veil. Sirius can't use >it to get out. Even if, by your reasoning, he could then make it so >his death never happened,i.e. "save himself." Actually, that is the exact point that I am *not* proposing. In fact, it's the exact *opposite* of what I'm proposing. In this theory there could be no possible way of saving Sirius because he actually did go through the veil- the only time that that time ever occurred. Therefore, no matter how many people go back in time to try to save him, we know that they will never succeed because, hey, we saw him go through the veil. There is only one-time that this event occurred, and no matter how many people experience it from other points of view, it still happened for the only time- so their presence will not be able to change it. Sirius can't turn over the time-turner because he doesn't have one (I assume) and because he's dead. Time occurred only once, and Sirius fell. If we accept *your* theory, then it's entirely possible for Sirius to be saved, so long as he isn't the one turning over the time-turner. Because in *your* version of time- travel time can be undone and modified. So Harry could go back in time, intercept Sirius before his death and he would never fall through the veil at all. Talisman wrote: >If you straighten out your jumbled semantics, you'll see that what I >endorse is rather different than what you attribute to me, and that >you have not effectively argued against it. And the same to you. Because you have no argued against me at all. What you attribute me is actually *not* what I am saying. You have argued against a theory which I acknowledge exists, but no not endorse whatsoever. If you really want to prove beyond all reasonable doubt that there is no way of having a self-consistent time-line, then I suggest you start again. And besides, I wasn't attributing you anything- I was showing you another interpretation of events. In fact, I avoided mentioning your theory in depth because it was already clear how you would like it to work. If you want me to debunk your theory, then I will. ~<(Laurasia)>~ From deadstop at wombatzone.com Wed Aug 27 23:12:45 2003 From: deadstop at wombatzone.com (Stacy Forsythe) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 19:12:45 -0400 Subject: Time Travel Message-ID: <4.3.2.20030827185952.00b2bbe8@pop.uky.edu> No: HPFGUIDX 79020 Saith Carolina: >Of course I don't mean it, but the phrase is correct, 9:00 PM only >happens once, I'm using more or less the same theory that Asimov >describes in 'End of Eternity', what I say is, if you write a >straight line as the timeline, there is only one point that can be >labeled as 9:00 PM, so it onlu happens twice. There is only >containment for a set of events. The set can be changed. The set of >events include "Harry and Hermione experience 9-12 PM twice that >night". It's common in time travel to have people overstepping >themselves. Multiple instances of individuals, isn't it? I would still consider your version to be an example of 9:00 happening twice. Not that there are two points on the clock that are both "9 PM," but that you seem to be assuming a "first" set of events without the time travel and a "second" set of events with the time travel. I see no need for the first set. It *could* have happened, but is essentially meaningless for the purposes of the story, since no one actually experiences it and we (as you agree) only read about the "with time travel' set of events. You have to make up the entire "without time travel" sequence of events from whole cloth, with no evidence. >I understand a linear, one timeline, as time being a dimension that >can be represented in the x axis, so there is only one 9:00 PM. >Nothing prevents you from going twice though the axis, or for >changing the function to adapt to reality if events in the single >timeline have changed. All right. But when *we* (single-timeline theorists) say "a single timeline," we mean a single sequence of events that does *not* change. No rewriting, no adapting, just the events that do occur, as they occur. Time travel is just that -- traveling in time. Even though the event that puts a second Harry and Hermione at 9PM doesn't occur until 12AM, they're still *there* at 9PM. There's no need for a "first time" in which the time travel does not take place "yet." ><see a dementorized Harry? Nope. We see him saved from the >dementors just in time. >> > >Of course. Because we only read the second set of facts. If that's the only set of facts we read, why postulate another set that nobody ever experiences? The events as they stand are internally consistent -- there's a second Harry present at 9PM to cast a patronus, thus the younger Harry survives the dementor attack and is able to use the time turner later to become that second Harry. There's no need to bring in another set of events that was overwritten. Stacy Forsythe deadstop at wombatzone.com From jferer at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 23:21:43 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:21:43 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!/Stop Making Excuses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79021 Maneelyfh: "EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES. You guys are making excuses for Fudge. When you constantly make excuses for someone, the is something very wrong. Explain why when the 10 DE's escape in OOTP, Fudge did not send Dementors out to hunt for them. He did when Sirius escaped. Also, Fudge conveniently blames Sirius for the breakout. So Fudge only cares about his own butt, and not the safety of those in the WW. If you don't believe he is a DE, then he is just as evil as LV." We're not making excuses, but I think you're missing an important point that JKR is making. She's contrasting the evil of cowardice and self-interest (Fudge) with the integrity, courage, and leadership of Dumbledore and Harry. Fudge is an example of what happens when someone who's supposed to be in charge sticks his head in the sand 'cuz he likes his cushy job. That's really not better than being a DE; that's the whole point. I think you offer speculations as proof, but more important to me is the thematic role that Fudge plays. All through history there have been Cornelius Fudges who, through complacency, self-interest, and cowardice, do evil's work as well as if they were active agents of the evil power. If you think of Fudge as Neville Chamberlain and Dumbledore as Churchill you get the drift. They call it the "Jaws Syndrome" now, after the fictional town fathers who insisted there wasn't a big shark out there eating people. I believe JKR is making an important moral point to her young readers. What JKR is saying, I believe, is that Fudge's cowardice and failure to act is just as bad as being a DE. He's an example of moral corruption. If Fudge is an active DE, then the books are less than what I think they are in that one respect. I wouldn't say Fudge is as evil as LV; he's not an actively evil psychopath. He's bad enough, though. Jim Ferer From darkmatter30 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 23:32:57 2003 From: darkmatter30 at yahoo.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:32:57 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus Mimbletonia (was Neville's Wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79022 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, yellows at a... wrote: > > There's *clearly* something more going on with Neville, that's > > accepted. But Gran and his uncle are likely part of his mystery, > > too. The bubblegum wrapper makes me really wonder. There has to > > be a reason Neville's mom handed it to him -- when I get my > > copy of OoP back, I'm going to check it out. :) I wish I had it > > with me now. > > > > What could bubblegum symbolize? Hasn't she given him a lot of > > them already? Do the wrappers say anything on them? Have we > > ever heard of bubblegum wrappers before in the series? Could > > bubblegum be a device to save the world from LV? ;) So I says to myself (Richard): What's wrong with a simply theory like this? The wrappers are all she has to give to her son, so out of love for him (and an addled brain), she gives these to him. He keeps them because he they are emblematic of the love she still feels for him, but also because they are all he expects to ever have from her that can remind him of that love. They in a sense embody her love to him. He need not consciously think such, but it would be sufficient reason for a loving child who misses the love he would have known to cherish the symbols of that love. James Redmont wrote: > I just read through the whole hospital part, and when they get in > the queue to find out where Mr. Weasley's room is, (p. 486 U.S. > version)...well let me quote: > > A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to > the front of the queue now. > "I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed. > "Ward forty-nine, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time," said > the witch dismissively. "He's completely addled, you know, still > thinks he's a teapot....Next!" > > Could this be Great Uncle Algie, delivering the devil's snare?? Which made me (Richard) think: It COULD be, but we have no reason to think it is except that we know Great Uncle Algie to be old, and this gentleman is here at roughly the time Neville and his Gran are. But, there are problems. First, Uncle Algie would know there is a fair chance of running into Gran and Neville at St. Mungo's. If he did, and he was walking in with a Devil's Snare, suspicions might be raised. Second, were he to be seen and recognized by other than Neville and Gran, people might wonder why he had not visited his niece/nephew (whichever is his closer relation) with Neville, and if he DID visit with Neville, he would likely be remembered as having done so, again increasing the risk of being recognized, remembered and caught. Third, if he has been here to visit his niece or nephew, he might be recognizable to at least some of the staff, who might then remember him as having delivered the murder weapon. The minimal staffing of a holiday may reduce the risk of this, but it doesn't eliminate it. Fourth, a great-uncle is of a generation with one's grandparents. Given the longevity of those in the WW, and the formidable manner and mien of Neville's Gran, it doesn't seem likely that Algie would be so stooped and shuffling ... unless disguised, of course. Fifth, Algie tossed Neville out of a window, which doesn't sound like something a stooped and shuffling man would be able to do. If he had used magic to do the tossing, I would have expected Neville to SAY in some manner that magic was used. Not all of these are particularly GOOD arguments, but I'm sure that there are others I missed, as well as better ways of stating these, and they still lead me to think that it wasn't Algie at all. From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 23:31:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:31:39 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungos ( was Re: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79023 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > Brief Chronicles: > > The bubblegum wrapper makes me really wonder. ... Could bubblegum > be a device to save the world from LV? ;) > > James Redmont: > > I don't have any strong theory on what the > > significance of the gum actually is, only that it probably *is* > > significant. ... >>> > hermionegallo: > > I've tried to pin it on Gran, ... And she's extremely proud of her > son. (Unless it's all a front? An evil cover-up? Is she a DE? > etc...) > > I've searched the environment of Mungo's, ... > > I ... spent the past couple of weeks trying to determine ... > Drooble's Best Blowing Gum ... anagrame(s). > > I believe that Luna's reading the runes upside down should lead us > to closely examine the wrappers. ...edited... > > "hermionegallo" bboy_mn: Opinion in two parts- My own theory is that the scene in St. Mungo's (the patron saint of Glasgow, Scotland) is there is some emotional connection that only Neville and his mother are aware of. I think, in her deep dark haze of diminished mental and physical function, Neville's mother is aware of Neville's presents and she, in her very limited way, knows who he is. Perhaps, it's only in the form of a subconscious connection that she is not even aware of. So Mrs. Longbottom sees the colorful wrapper and thinks, 'that's pretty, I think Neville would like this'. This isn't just the random wanderings and actions of a deranged person as Gran. Longbottom seems to think. This is a deliberate act on Mrs. Longbottom's part. But she is so limited in her abilities, so deep in the dense fog that surrounds her, that this is the best she can do to acknowledge that she knows who Neville is and that she cares for him very deeply. I think Neville understand this. I think he knows that these colorful gum wrapper are his mother attempt to let Neville know that she is aware of him. That's why Neville keeps them. He knows that given the effort it takes for his mother to overcome the fog that smothers her, to give these lowly gifts is a monumental effort on her part. So, he cherishes every single one of them. The next part is the part that is driving us all nuts. What is the deeper significants of the gum wrappers? What is their greater role in the plot developement? I kind of like that ancient runes idea. Mrs. Longbottom is so very very limited in her abilities that creating a coherent written message is impossible; she simply can't function on that level. But she might be able to scratch a simple rune symbol on the wrapper in a deparate attempt to pass a message to Neville. But, given the circumstance, why would anyone think these to be anything more than random scratch marks? Sound the trumpets... Along comes Hermione, who has studied Ancient Runes. Perhaps she recognises the symbol for poison. I know nothing about ancient rune symbols so there may not even be symbol for poison, but my point is still made. The actions of Neville's mother tell me that while she is very very limited in her ability to function, she is more aware and able to function than we have been lead to believe. As horrible as it is to think about the Longbottoms being held in a kind of drug induced insanity, it would mean that once the secret is discovered, they could come back. They could be with Neville again. ...and well, I'm a sucker for a happy ending. Last point, I agree that there is a greater meaning to those gum wrappers, but don't have a clue what it is. Just a thought. bboy_mn From lziner at yahoo.com Wed Aug 27 23:42:54 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 23:42:54 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79024 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Richard" wrote: > Thus wrote bboy_mn (Steve): > > > Exactly how old do you think Christmas is? 100 years? 500 years? > > 1,000 years? No. Try 1,650 years old. > > > Actually, it's a little older than that, as an "official" thing, but > not by much. Having been raised by theologian, I'm pretty well > versed in this ... your list ignored some Coptic and Syrian > citations, if memory serves. So, please, don't leap to conclusions > about what I might or might not know. > > bboy_mn continued: > > > Why is it so hard to believe that wizards might have heard about it? > > True Christmas and Easter were ancient pagan holidays that EVOLVED > > into the current Christian holidays, but why can't you believe the > > wizards evolved their tradition too. > > > I see no reason why the ancient pagen rites of wizards and witches > > would not have evolved with the advent, introduction, and wide > > spread acceptance of Christianity. Remember that wizards and > > witches have not always been separated from Muggles. They have > > gone through cycles of being integrated and separated. Certainly, > > a 1650 year old tradition could have easily crept into their > > culture. > > > I don't find it hard at all to believe this. I would EXPECT it to be > the case. The problems is that the Wizarding World would surely > retain more identification of pagan or "classically" magical rites, > astronomical events, etc., as such, were such of real significance to > that WW. Instead, we find the thin slice of the WW we see > celebrating events that are identifiably Christian in origin. It > would also seem logical for the WW to start a slow reversion back to > more classically magical celebrations and observances (after all, not > all those assorted events and rites were "celebrated," as in some > regions and religions they could get a little bloody) as the divide > between the WW and the Muggle World widened ... regardless of how old > or recent that divide may in canon be. > > The magic of the JKR WW is, so far as we've seen, devoid of > invocation of spirit outside one's self and one's wand. Some things > must be done at precise lunar times, of course, but there has been no > invocation of "The Goddess," or of spirits, or demons, etc. The only > spirits we've seen are ghosts, a poltergeist and lots of booze. (How > ANY creature could live drinking nothing but single malt scotch is > beyond me. You've GOT to have some cognac and port, once in a while, > not to mention the occasional Cajun Bloody Mary.) On the other hand, > we have those lyrics ... "God rest ye merry hippogriffs ..." and "O > Come All ye Faithful ..." (Forgive me if I got the lyrics a little > off ... no text at hand ...) Thus, I don't see how pagan beliefs, > holy days, rites, etc., got into this. > > I stand by my earlier comment that to me, religion has really nothing > to do with this fictional WW, apart from being part of the cultural > heritage that makes it a bit more familiar to the reader than a world > devoid of such references. I see Christmas, Easter and such as being > present more to show the flow of time than as making any statement > either way. > > > Richard I totally agree with Richard about time flow. Most children know when Christmas and Easter occur (winter/spring). They know they get time-off from school. It makes sense to them that the Hogwarts students would have this time off as well. On another point, look at the backlash created in some circles about the books even with christian holidays. Imagine the uproar if JKR created/used pagan holidays. lziner instead. From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 00:25:57 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Fudge behind empty MoM In-Reply-To: <097b01c36cb9$bd1eae80$43c50c0c@computer> Message-ID: <20030828002557.1337.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79025 Tamee Livingston wrote: How could the DEs guarantee an empty ministry when Harry got there? I guess Voldemort could have tracked Harry's movements through their connection, but that still doesn't satisfy me. ------------ I think that's the proof that Fudge really is a disciple of Voldemort. Only Fudge would have the authority (under the guise of blind stupidity) to order a virtual evacuation of the MoM, leaving it wide open to almost anything. Can't wait to hear the "reason" he gives in the next book for that seemingly bone-headed move, and I bet DD sees right through it. Bring out the veritaserum, Snape! owlery2003 Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Thu Aug 28 00:35:36 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:35:36 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's Eyes Message-ID: <152.234c4a61.2c7ea858@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79026 In a message dated 8/27/2003 6:15:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, angelberri55 writes: > Anyway... it's talking about two characters- Colin and Lily. The > song is about how Colin has his (dead) mother's eyes. > Actually, the song is about how Mary has Lily's eyes, but I'd noticed this before, too. I wonder sometimes if JKR is making a reference to The Secret Garden when she mentions Lily and her eyes. :) Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From lziner at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 00:42:48 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:42:48 -0000 Subject: Fudge behind empty MoM In-Reply-To: <20030828002557.1337.qmail@web20702.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79027 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > > Tamee Livingston wrote: > How could the DEs guarantee an empty ministry when Harry got there? I guess Voldemort could have tracked Harry's movements through their connection, but that still doesn't satisfy me. > > ------------ > > I think that's the proof that Fudge really is a disciple of Voldemort. Only Fudge would have the authority (under the guise of blind stupidity) to order a virtual evacuation of the MoM, leaving it wide open to almost anything. Can't wait to hear the "reason" he gives in the next book for that seemingly bone-headed move, and I bet DD sees right through it. Bring out the veritaserum, Snape! > > owlery2003 Isn't it possible that the MoM - like many government offices - has business hours and is closed after a certain time of day? It makes sense to me. The bigger question is if they are closed how in heck did Harry get in? Lziner > > > > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT > > ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ > > Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! > http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin > > Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From yellows at aol.com Thu Aug 28 00:51:26 2003 From: yellows at aol.com (yellows at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 20:51:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungos ( was Re: Mimbulus ... Message-ID: <191.1e5eb121.2c7eac0e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79028 In a message dated 8/27/2003 7:37:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, bboy_mn at yahoo.com writes: > As horrible as it is to think about the Longbottoms being held in a > kind of drug induced insanity, it would mean that once the secret is > discovered, they could come back. They could be with Neville again. > ...and well, I'm a sucker for a happy ending. > > Last point, I agree that there is a greater meaning to those gum > wrappers, but don't have a clue what it is. I think this could be it, actually. The Longbottoms have become such a source of interest in the story -- and they aren't dead. This must mean that they'll play a decent role in the future. I don't have my OoP on me. What if the gum is keeping them insane and Mrs. Longbottom is desperately hoping someone will notice it's not normal gum? Who gives her so much gum? Brief Chronicles [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 00:56:55 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:56:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Fudge behind empty MoM In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030828005655.91265.qmail@web20707.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79029 Tamee Livingston wrote: How could the DEs guarantee an empty ministry when Harry got there? I guess Voldemort could have tracked Harry's movements through their connection, but that still doesn't satisfy me. owlery2003 commented: I think that's the proof that Fudge really is a disciple of Voldemort. Only Fudge would have the authority (under the guise of blind stupidity) to order a virtual evacuation of the MoM, leaving it wide open to almost anything. Can't wait to hear the "reason" he gives in the next book for that seemingly bone-headed move, and I bet DD sees right through it. Bring out the veritaserum, Snape! Lziner commented: Isn't it possible that the MoM - like many government offices - has business hours and is closed after a certain time of day? It makes sense to me. The bigger question is if they are closed how in heck did Harry get in? ----------------- Good point - we hear repeated references to going to and from work at certain times (Arthur), and overtime. There's no canon for the hours, though given what's available to be had there (mysteries, prophesies, time turners!) you'd think it would be guarded 24-7. Certain enchantments seem effective, though too many people to use the "secret keeper" thing. All those fireplaces must connect to somewhere . . . are they "lockable" after hours? Don't know . . . owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 00:37:09 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 17:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] All aboard! SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030828003709.38319.qmail@web20705.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79030 hermionegallo wrote: --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/14/2003 3:09:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, > miss_america_03 at y... writes: > ...I know I'm not the only one! :) > > ~RSFJenny You're NOT the only one! This one has been eating at me for weeks. There's no way the Cruciatus would have done this to them. Is it time to cast this out into Theory Bay? How much canon would we need to back it up beforehand? There are no blue bubbles anywhere, but there are a lot of bubbles with candles in them. There's no music being piped in that we know of, but there are lots of ways to fiddle w/ someone's brain. It's interesting that Lockhart is getting better (somewhat) and that Bode was turning around. Why not the Longbottoms? ---------------- I'll buy a ticket for this ship, too. Makes a lot of sense, and I'd love to see the Longbottoms recover. After all the death and mayhem, a healing touch would be nice. owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From stevejjen at earthlink.net Thu Aug 28 01:37:33 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 01:37:33 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79031 Jen Reese: > > I DO wonder about the wand thing, whether they can duel. Dumbledore > > states in GOF, when asked by Sirius what happens when a wand meets > > its brother: "They will not work properly against each other...If > > however, the owners of the wands force the wands to do battle...a > > very rare effect will take place." Then he goes on to describe > > Priori Incantatem. > > > > That seems ambiguous though. Do wands of the same core > > work "improperly," which indicates any number of problems might > > develop, or will it only result in *priori incantatem*? Also, I'm wondering now whether Voldemort would have been able to kill Harry in OOTP when he AK's him---can a wand kill the person who owns the brother wand, or is it just the wands themselves that can't "do battle?" We do know Voldemort can use his wand to Crucio Harry. > > > Geoff: > I think the important point here is "they will not work /against each > other/. If one of the wands is used independently then it will work - > viz Voldemort's use of the Cruciatus Curse, mentioned above. It's > when they come into eyeball to eyeball contact, so to speak, that > they refuse to work. Yes, that makes sense. Here's the part that still seems ambiguous to me: Say Voldemort and Harry are dueling and throwing curses left and right. And unlike in GOF, none of the curses are made at the exact same instant, so priori incantatem doesn't occur. The wands are still *battling* with each other, so it follows from Dumbledore's explanation that in some way they wouldn't work properly against each other. Dumbledore didn't say: "If the wands are battling and two curses are made at the same exact moment, the wands won't work properly" he just said the wands won't work properly against each other. This indicates to me they won't work at ANY time, not just if two curses meet at some point. If that occurs, you get priori incantatem; if it doesn't occur, what?!? Jen From pegruppel at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 02:32:25 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 02:32:25 -0000 Subject: Presenting: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: <129.2fb34f2d.2c6d212d@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79032 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > Please be nice, I worked for quite some time (ok, fine, it was only an hour > or so, but it FELT like a long time!!) to come up with this. I am, however, > open to suggestions for bettering the acronym :) > > What are SILK GOWNS, you ask? > People who believe in the theory of the: > > Suspiciously > Insane > Longbottoms, the > Key is the > > Gum > Or > Wrappers that > Neville > Saves. > Where do I sign? I've believed, since I read GoF, that there was *something* odd about the Longbottom's illness. Lucius Malfoy being associated with donations to St. Mungo's is just a little too convenient. JKR doesn't waste words, and anything mentioned even in passing is usually a clue. Those chocolate frog cards were pretty useful in PS/SS . . . I'm re-reading the books right now, and I'll start taking notes on mentions of the gum. (I expect that a lot of people who have seen my previous posts have just rolled their eyes) Look out for that candy! Peg From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 03:21:13 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:21:13 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_McGonagall's_hubby_(was_significance_in_McGonagall=92s_years_of_service)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79033 <<<"Susan Smith" wrote:...I also suspect that other staff members have married within the staff, too. It is natural this would happen when most have been there 14 or more years...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says It seems that most people are used to teachers who are regular people who teach, and thus should mostly be married, but I wonder if the school system JKR is referencing is more like US Catholic schools; back in my young days, most of the teachers were members of celibate religious orders, so that married teachers were the exception rather than the rule. Prof. McGonagal is *so* Sister Mary Discipline, and Father Matthias (note wizardy-odd first name) Lynch, the first parish priest I remember, was Albus Dubledore without the twinkle... --JDR From Erthena at aol.com Thu Aug 28 03:22:29 2003 From: Erthena at aol.com (werebearloony) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:22:29 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Voldy Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79034 This stuff has been running around in my brain for a few weeks now and I wanted to get it out before it goes crazy and starts breaking things. Since there is so much parallelism in HP, and since we've been analyzing generational parallels, I thought I'd take a crack at the big one, HP-LV. We know that LV is the heir of Slytherin, he's the last descendant (or Ancestor if you like) of S. Slytherin himself making him the biological heir. So in comparing HP and LV we automatically think `Oh well Harry must be related to G. Gryffindor'. WRONG! As much as I really, really like the `Harry is related to G. Gryffindor' theory I this it's wrong. However I do think that the `Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor' theory is completely on. That's the point IMO; in Slytherin blood matters, so the heir of Slytherin has got to be related by blood to S. Slytherin, even tainted blood (see below). But in Gryffindor it matters what you do, not who you are related to. So Harry can be the Heir of Gryffindor by exemplifying the qualities of G. Gryffindor himself. This JKR has already given us, Dumbledore, among others says that Harry is a perfect Gryffindor. Add that to the fact that Harry is going up against the Heir of Slytherin and you might as well scrawl `Heir of Gryffindor' on the front of his robes in the stuff Ginny painted the walls with when she was possessed in CoS. Since we're talking about LV being the Heir of Slytherin there's something else that's bothering me. `How did Voldy's mom hook up with a muggle when she's supposed to be from this notorious muggle hating family'. Rebellion works really well, even to the point of her being killed for having a kid with a muggle (the Slytherin family seems a nasty bunch and does it seem implausible to anyone else that she died in childbirth when wizards probably figured out solutions to that particular problem long ago). It works too that his family wouldn't want him, half blood scum that he is, and would ship him off to a muggle orphanage. And then Voldy killed them just like he killed the Riddles, showing that he kills all people who disagree with him not just muggles and muggle borns. That's stretching a bit far, I see the yellow flags flying at me but it just proves that there is something wrong with that. That's as far as I've chased this thought it just gets scarier as I go on. Does anyone have better ideas out there? Finally I'm going to tackle the oft asked question `How did Tom Riddle get into Slytherin if he's a half blood?' Well it's easy enough; I've already stated that IMO in Slytherin blood is important. So therefore even though Tom Riddle was a half blood, that fact would be overridden by the fact that he is descended (or whatever) from S. Slytherin himself. Well now my thoughts are out and I don't have to worry about them breaking into the sensitive areas of my brain where I've stored most of the cannon. ~~loony From linlou43 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 03:27:09 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (linlou43) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:27:09 -0000 Subject: Why the metamorphoses? (was Voldemort Will Win) In-Reply-To: <20030827224152.27299.qmail@web80708.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79035 Aesha wrote: > Maus came up with a very interesting theory, and it seems to me highly plausible. As I was reading it, he mentioned the Big Character Flaw about Voldemort that's been drilled constantly into our heads: That he cannot feel love. If this is true... then why does he care? I mean, why did he become the Dark Lord? I thought it was in defiance of his muggle father; to pay him back for leaving his mother, a witch and descendant of Salazar Slytherin. Did he at one time love, feel pain, and that's what started him on this path? And through time, human emotion ceased to exist within him? > Me: IMHO, that is *exactly* the point. He once could feel love... and pain. Dumbledore told us that Tom Riddle went through many terrible transformations during the years between when he left school and when he resurfaced as Lord V, so many in fact that he was almost unrecognizable.(COS) I've never thought that those transformations were only physical. Hagrid opines in SS: *Don't know that there was enough human left in him to die.*. IMO, Riddle spent the missing years not only gaining power but attempting to reach his goal of immortality. I can see him sacrificing his humanity in that quest. I still think Riddle is buried away in there somewhere though- screaming in protest against that which is Lord V. I really think that Tom could still feel true emotion if only Voldemort was somehow taken out of the equation. Think of it as no longer being under the influence of a drug. Some drugs make the taker feel invinsible-even seem to imbue the user with super human strangth for a time.(No, that's not from personal experiance.) Once the drug is eradicated from the user's system, however. Their real self returns. -linlou,who really hopes Tom Riddle can yet be saved From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Aug 27 23:39:43 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:39:43 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!/Stop Making Excuses References: Message-ID: <3F4D413F.50904@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79036 maneelyfh wrote: > EXCUSES, EXCUSES, EXCUSES. You guys are making excuses for Fudge. > When you constantly make excuses for someone, the is something very > wrong. > Explain why when the 10 DE's escape in OOTP, Fudge did not send > Dementors out to hunt for them. He did when Sirius escaped. Also, > Fudge conviently blames Sirius for the breakout. So Fudge only cares > about his own butt, and not the saftey of those in the WW. If you > don't believe he is a DE, then he is just as evil as LV. > They escaped because the dementors RETURNED TO LV! As I said before, the MOM only thought they could control the dementors. Dumbledore WARNED Fudge to remove the dementors from Askaban and find different guards before, but Fudge didn't believe that LV was back or that the Dementors would return to LV's side. Fudge couldn't send the Dementors to look for the 10 DEs cause the Dementors had already deserted Askaban to return to LV, which was what allowed the 10 DEs to escape. The MOM tried to cover up the fact the Dementors left, fearing a panic would sweep through the WW if people found out the MOM didn't have control over them, like they thought. Dumbledore's warning about them would have been another notch in DD's belt and yet another thing to make Fudge and the MOM look bad. Jazmyn From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Wed Aug 27 23:51:12 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 18:51:12 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Prophecy Contradiction References: Message-ID: <3F4D43F0.9030809@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79037 happyduck1979 wrote: > Emma "punkstarz85" wrote: > > The Prophecy states something along the line of Harry or Voldemort > > must murder the other for the remaining to live. However unless I'm > > forgetting something, in order to do so, they must duel. I can't > > see either going silently or unwillingly, can you? > > > > I'm curious to see how J.K Rowling is going to work around this! Rachel: > There is nothing to work around. Wizards do not need to duel to kill > each other... one can sneak up behind the other or take him or her by > surprise. More than this, wands battling in my mind means that > both spells need to be cast at precisely the same moment. Thus they > meet in midair and the effect takes place. There is also the > possibility that one of the two might at some point need to use a > wand not their own. >>> Like Avatar and Black Wolf in the movie Wizards. Avatar pulled out a gun and shot Black Wolf, when everyone thought they would duel it out magically. What WOULD Voldemort do if Harry pulled out a gun and blew his head off? A trigger can be pulled faster then one can say a spell... I think if JKR pulled that stunt in the books, Ralph Bakshi would sue her and her fans would gang up on her and silly string her till she resembles a rainbow haystack. If Volde falls off a cliff, then Disney might sue.. Last minute 'conversion to good' would be too Darth Vader'ish. Its going to be near impossible to find a way to kill Voldemort off and be original, you know... Jazmyn From entropymail at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 00:13:02 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:13:02 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!/Stop Making Excuses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79038 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > We're not making excuses, but I think you're missing an important > point that JKR is making. She's contrasting the evil of cowardice and > self-interest (Fudge) with the integrity, courage, and leadership of > Dumbledore and Harry. > > Fudge is an example of what happens when someone who's supposed to be > in charge sticks his head in the sand 'cuz he likes his cushy job. > That's really not better than being a DE; that's the whole point. > > I wouldn't say Fudge is as evil as LV; he's not an actively evil > psychopath. He's bad enough, though. > > Jim Ferer I think this is a very important distinction. There is an active kind of evil, a "dark" evil, that is just for evil's sake. That's Voldemort. But then there's the egocentric "sin" of self-absorption. I think you see this to a great extent in characters like Fudge (as well as Lockhart and, to some extent, Lucius Malfoy). Notice how much emphasis JKR puts on the flamboyant way these characters dress; Fudge is always described as wearing some pinstripe-thing or another. That is, their outward appearance is everything to them -- and prettying up any pesky little disturbances like immorality or dark wizardry is more important than actually taking action against them. There's no question that Fudge is up to something. At the end of GoF, Harry notices some strange behavior from Fudge beyond the obviously brazen move of bringing a dementor in with him to see Barty Crouch: ("...and Harry was astonished to see a slight smile dawning on his [Fudge's]face...Fudge's curious smile lingered...Fudge still had that strange smile on his face..."). But his actions seem more of a self-protective sort than an evil one. My humble opinion Entropy From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 03:55:05 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:55:05 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79039 <<<"quigonginger" wrote...We are about 10% of the population...So what do y'all think? Is there a reason that not one of the characters in Harry Potter has been distinguished as being left- handed?...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says 10%? That's all? So Harry is right-handed (probably to further indicate how incredibly average he is), but how about Ron for a lefty, or for sure one of the twins? Fred, I'd say. He's the one I picked in a "which Weasley is gay?" poll because he seems a little more caustic than George. Then there's Aberforth Dumbledore (who I bet we'll see a lot more of) and of course, Luna and Tonks. I read somewhere that the one surest cause of stuttering in a child absent neurological damage is forcing handedness. And when I was a kid trying to acquire hep handicaps, I found that you do everything mirror when you let your 'other' hand do its thing. Maybe Neville is a natural lefty forced into opposite handedness as a function of a Memory Charm or some other plot point. Suppose, when he gets his own wand, Ollivander fits him as a lefty? Not as much fun as the "who's gay" brouhaha, but a good one with a lot of promise! --JDR From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 04:07:47 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:07:47 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes In-Reply-To: <152.234c4a61.2c7ea858@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79040 <<>> The Sergeant Majorette says I don't know the musical, but that book was Harry Potter for me when I was little, and there is a heartwrenching part in it about how the father can't bear to see his wife's eyes in his son's sickly little face. I wonder if Frances Hodgson Burnett was a minor influence to JKR as the moral and psychological intrepidity of the children in both authors' works are similar. --JDR From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 28 04:08:54 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:08:54 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: <3F4D43F0.9030809@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79041 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > happyduck1979 wrote: > > Emma "punkstarz85" wrote: > > > I'm curious to see how J.K Rowling is going to work around this! > > Rachel: > > There is nothing to work around. Wizards do not need to duel to kill > > each other... one can sneak up behind the other or take him or her by > > surprise. There is also the > > possibility that one of the two might at some point need to use a > > wand not their own. >>> What WOULD Voldemort do if Harry pulled out a gun and blew > his head off? A trigger can be pulled faster then one can say a spell... > > I think if JKR pulled that stunt in the books, Ralph Bakshi would sue > her and her fans would gang up on her and silly string her till she > resembles a rainbow haystack. > > If Volde falls off a cliff, then Disney might sue.. Last minute > 'conversion to good' would be too Darth Vader'ish. > > Its going to be near impossible to find a way to kill Voldemort off and > be original, you know... > > Jazmyn Susan: Why isn't anyone thinking about POTIONS? Could this be a major use of Snape? Maybe even a Love potion?? just kidding on that one...lol. Or even alchemy...tho I don't really know what that is. There are so many other things they are learning other than wand usage. I hardly think they need to resort to guns. I also seem to remember something where guns may not have an affect on wizards? Could be I imagined that. Anyway, just my two cents. Susan From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 28 04:20:05 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:20:05 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!/Stop Making Excuses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79042 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > > > We're not making excuses, but I think you're missing an important > > point that JKR is making. She's contrasting the evil of cowardice and > > self-interest (Fudge) with the integrity, courage, and leadership of > > Dumbledore and Harry. > > > > > > Jim Ferer > > I think this is a very important distinction. There is an active kind > of evil, a "dark" evil, that is just for evil's sake. That's Voldemort. > > > There's no question that Fudge is up to something. But his actions seem more of a > self-protective sort than an evil one. > > My humble opinion > > Entropy Susan" I still think Fudge may be a death eater however,IF he is not, then I still say that he AND Umbridge knew full well how their actions would aid Voldemort. And they both ARE evil. I am sorry but I cannot see where their actions were not evil just self serving. They put a lot of people in pain and serious danger. We shall see when the next book comes out. OOOh I can't wait....even if I am wrong it will still be fun! Susan From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 04:49:18 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 04:49:18 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- it's Narrative Function Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79043 The narrative function of Time-Travel in Harry Potter. There are really two theories as to how time-travel in HP works. Neither can be proved without a doubt, nor can either be disproved. The choice we all make as to which theory we support comes mostly from the narrative function that that style of time-travel would play in further books. On one hand there is the internally consistent singular time-line theory. This theory says that time occurs only once and that Harry really did see himself across the lake casting the Patronus. The impact of this theory is that it wraps up the events of PoA without any gaps. Every occurrence can be explained. It also useful as a metaphor in portraying themes found in the series. The downside of this theory is that it can be seen as too simple, as it doesn't really open up any doors for future plot twists. On the other hand there is the multi-occurring time-line theory (also known as the `it happened twice' theory). This theory states that time occurs many times, the first time without the time-travellers or their actions in it, the second time with them. The impact of this theory is that it opens up huge possibilities for future twists in the plot- mostly centred around the question of "Who cast the Patronus that saved Harry et al the first time?" It also opens up an infinite number of future uses for time-travel in the series. The downside of this theory is that it presents many questions, which, at this point in the text, cannot be answered with much except speculation. Most people understand how both theories work and accept the existence of alternate theories. The choice they make about which one to support is based , then, on the narrative role that Time-Travel will play in the series. Do you want Harry to discover that Snape actually saved his life again in PoA when he was close to being soul- sucked by a Dementor? Or, do you want Harry to find his father in himself and come to terms with the theme that he can't control time, on both a literal and metaphorical level? The multi-occurrence theory creates the potential for massive shocks. It bangs. It bangs hugely- because, as far as we are aware, Harry himself believes that he cast the Patronus all along. How devastating would it be to find out that it was (for example) Snape saving him neck all along and that he was actually not needed to cast the Patronus at all??? Big issues- Harry suffers shock, then feel redundant, then incredibly stupid for thinking that he was actually being important. He has huge issues with Snape anyway, this would top the lot. Other bangs could be that he literally saw James Potter- `Your father is alive, Harry!' BANG! That is was Lupin or Dumbledore any host of other people... The possibilities are endless- the bang is the limit. Of note: the Time-Turner ending in PoA pretty much bangs in either version of the events- that is, it bangs the same with the `it happened once theory' or the `it only happened once' theory. The `it happened twice' theory also makes the future use of time- travel highly exciting. That is, if you can go back in time and change how events unfold, then we could have Harry going back to stop Voldemort being born as a baby. We could have Harry going back to Godric's Hollow to stop Voldemort killing his parents. We could have Harry go back and stopping Sirius falling through the veil. These are all big bangs, and they would change the course of the books suddenly, unexpectedly and dramatically. Then, on the other hand, a singular-occurrence theory opens up a door for all kinds of thematic symbolism. Such as: the idea that Harry will ultimately have to realise that only he can ever save himself and that he is alone in the world. The concept of finding his father alive in himself. The idea that he will have to accept that there are always things out of your control and that he must choose how to face them. That is every bad experience there may always be a tiny bit of good, and in every good experience there is always a bit of bad. Most of these themes can already be seen reflected in other parts of the book- especially the end of GoF and OoP. Harry accepting that only he can save himself is reflected in the prophecy and Harry's responsibility to defeat Voldemort. The theme of his father is reflected in OoP where he finds out that having James inside himself might not be necessarily a good thing. Also, Harry begins to question whether he is arrogant (Ron and the prefect badge) which is how we see James portrayed, and the development of the relationship between Sirius and Harry which centres mostly on Sirius projecting James onto Harry. The idea of things always being out of his control is reflected in Sirius's tragic demise, and the Daily Prophet's anti- Potter campaign. The prophecy and its affects show how other people choices impact uncontrollably on Harry. The whole idea of good and bad being simultaneous in every situation has always been a major theme throughout the book- see these posts 78529,78532, 78533, for a wonderful exploration of the ideas of the shades of grey. So, there are essentially two options as to which version of time- travcel to accept. (I know that there are many more theories, but they can generlally be grouped by association with one of the ones I have described above). Both impact on the story, although in entirely different ways. * * * I made this post so that I can continually refer to it as the 'agree to disagree post.' So that in all future time-travel discussions/blood-baths I can always look back and think that the choice of which time-travel theory you support is really just a personal choice in how you would like to see the story evolve. Although, I have the "and why I support the 'it happened once' post" in the works... :-) ~<(Laurasia)>~ From zanelupin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 05:01:44 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:01:44 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!/Stop Making Excuses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79044 Susan: >I still think Fudge may be a death eater however,IF he is not, then I still say that he AND Umbridge knew full well how their actions would aid Voldemort. And they both ARE evil. I am sorry but I cannot see where their actions were not evil just self serving. They put a lot of people in pain and serious danger. We shall see when the next book comes out. OOOh I can't wait....even if I am wrong it will still be fun!< Fudge is self serving and doesn't care who it is he's crushing. And he's afraid. Very, very afraid. The same with Umbridge. And this fear is the driving force behind their actions. It doesn't excuse it. It doesn't make what they do any less evil than if they were working for Lord Voldemort. I think the other folks who've been responding to the claim that we're making excuses for Fudge have done a better job of expressing why Fudge is not a DE than I can. I believe Jim Ferer was the one who said that the books would be less if Fudge turned out to be a DE and I agree wholeheartedly. The fact that there are other evils in the Potterverse working independently of Lord Voldemort (though playing into his hands) was one of the best things about OoP. Turning around and making them part of the same Harry/Lord Voldemort conflict in such a blatant manner would weaken the story immeasurably in my humble estimation. Not only would it negate the message that Sirius states outright, that the world isn't divided into good people and Death Eaters, but it would make JKR's world much narrower and much duller. KathyK From sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 05:05:55 2003 From: sevenhundredandthirteen at yahoo.com (sevenhundredandthirteen) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 05:05:55 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- it's Narrative Function In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79045 This is a follow on from my last post (#79043) in which I presented both sides of the 'Which type of Time-Travel is JKR using?' from the point of view that both are possible. Instead of trying to convince you of which one is better, I merely presented the possible narrative functions of both. And *NOW* I would like to take the opportunity to show you why I think the 'it happened once' theory is much more likely that the 'it happened twice' theory. My original distnctions between different types of time-travel was as such: >On one hand there is the internally consistent singular time-line theory. This theory says that time occurs only once and that Harry >really did see himself across the lake casting the Patronus. >On the other hand there is the multi-occurring time-line theory (also known as the `it happened twice' theory). This theory states that time occurs many times, the first time without the time-travellers or >their actions in it, the second time with them. Alas, there is no undeniable evidence for what type of time-travel JKR is using. However, there is much evidence to support the singular time-line theory in PoA. It goes as follows: PoA Chapter 15 `The Quidditch Final' `Hermione, why didn't you come to Charms?' `What? Oh no!' Hermione squeaked. `I forgot to go to Charms!' `But how could you forget?' said Harry. `You were with us till we were right outside the classroom!' This quote is used to show that because Harry and Ron noticed that Hermione wasn't in Charms she couldn't go back in time and go to the class. Once she missed it she couldn't go back and change the way the events unfolded. That is, because time occurs only once, no matter how hard Hermione tries she will never make it back to Charms, as the historical event, as recorded by eye-witnesses (Harry and Ron) does not include her. Theoretically she could borrow Harry's invisibility cloak and attend the class... So long as Harry and Ron didn't *see* her there. If time occurred as proposed by the multi-occurring theory then Hermione could go back in time and change the way the events unfolded so that the event of `Harry and Ron noticing that Hermione was not there' would be replaced with one in which Hermione was. Alas, this is not what happens. We are left to assume that going back in time does not allow you to change time. The premise of the multi-occurring time-line is that you have to change time- that is, you replace the version without you there with the one where you were there. PoA Chapter 16 `Professor Trelawney's Prediction' `They skulked in an empty chamber off the Entrance Hall, listening until they were sure it was deserted. They heard a last pair of people hurrying across the Hall, and a door slamming.' As compared with: PoA Chapter 21 `Hermione's Secret' `He was standing next to Hermione in the deserted Entrance Hall `In here!' Hermione seized Harry's arm and dragged him across the hall to the door of a broom cupboard; she opened it, pushed him inside amongst the buckets and mops, followed him in, then slammed the door behind them.' This suggests that Harry and Hermione were there all along. Even though at this point in the text (Chapter 16) we aren't even aware that Time-Travel exists there are still the effects of what the time- travel will ultimately bring about. That is, we see the effect before the cause. This suggests that we have an internally consistent time- line where past-selves can be affected by their future-selves. It suggests that these people are interacting on the same singularly occurring time-line. PoA Chapter 16- 17 `There was a jumble of indistinct male voices, a silence and then, without warning, the unmistakeable swish and thud of an axe Then, behind them, they heard a wild howling. `Hagrid,' Harry muttered.' As compared to: Poa Chapter 21 `There was a swishing noise, and the thud of an axe. The executioner seemed to have swung it into the fence in anger. And then came the howling, and this time they could hear Hagrid's words through his sobs.' Important note here, the quote from the narration `and this time they could hear...' This suggests that what we are seeing is the same event but from a different point of view. That is, the narration suggest that Harry and Hermione experience the same event of Hagrid howling with joy at Beaky's escape, except, the second time from a better perspective where they can obtain a better understanding of how the event actually unfolded. PoA Chapter 21 `We were walking down to Hagrid's three hours ago...' `This _is_ three hours ago and we _are_ walking down to Hagrid's,' said Hermione. `We just heard ourselves leaving...' Hermione seems to have accepted that we are working on a singular time-line... She tells us all that the events we are witnessing are the actual events. Therefore, when Harry casts his Patronus later on we are _still_ witnessing the actual events. The comment `This _is_ about an hour ago, and we _are_ about to be soul-sucked by Dementors' would be equally applicable. Therefore, when Harry casts his Patronus he really does see himself from the opposite side if the lake. PoA Chapter 21 'Looks even worse from here, doesn't it?' said Harry, watching the dog pulling Ron into the roots. Same as above. Harry's comment suggests that this is really a singular time-line. The quote `from here' suggests that only his perspective has changed, and that they are at the actual event. PoA Chapter 21 `But who conjured it [the Patronus]?' `I think it was my dad.' And: PoA Chapter 21 `There was a bush at the very edge of the water. Harry threw himself behind it A terrified excitement shot through him ? any moment now - But no one came. Harry raised his head to look at the circle of Dementors across the lake. One of them was lowering its hood. It was time for the rescuer to appear ? but one was coming to help this time ? And then it hit him ? he understood. He hadn't seen his father ? he had seen _himself_ ` And: PoA Chapter 21 `Yes, _I_ saw me but I thought it was my dad!' `I knew I could do it this time,' said Harry, `because I'd already done it...' These quotes again suggest that Harry had actually seen himself. The only way that he could actually see himself is if we have an internally consistent time-line where time occurs only once. He has accepted that he is currently interacting with the events he experience earlier from another point of view and actually ensuring that they happened accordingly. Of course, it is entirely possible to try to explain away all these quotes if you were looking at them from a `it happened twice' point of view. You could say that HRH hearing a pair of footsteps in the hall was just a coincidence, that Buckbeak really was executed and the similarities between both accounts of the events was just chance, etc, etc, etc. Alternatively, you could argue that JKR is just throwing a red herring at us, and she wants us to believe that an internally consistent time-line is occurring just so that when she shows us that it's actually the `it happened twice' version it has a bigger impact. HOWEVER, to accept the 'it happened twice' version of events you are asking for too many coincidences, IMO. And, if you ask me, JKR has no reason to trick us all into thinking that Time-Travel occurs one way, only to confuse us all and contradict herself. To me, that is not an exciting plot twist- it's annoying and the easy way out. Although, there are harder things to explain away than those quotes which can be perhaps interpreted as 'coincidiences'. The biggest problem that I have with the `it happened twice' theory is that the very notion of changing time has hugely less impact. Consider this quote: PoA Chapter 21 `Hermione,' said Harry suddenly, `what if we ? we just run in there and grab Pettigrew ?` `No!' said Hermion is a terrified whisper. Don't you understand? We're breaking of on the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's supposed to change time, nobody!' This clearly demonstrates that changing time is an extremely devastating thing to happen. However, in the multi-occurring time-line, changing time becomes an ordinary by-product of travelling through time. According to everything that we've been shown about time-travelling in HP, changing time is a HUGE deal. It's a CATASTROPHIC deal. It's so important that it's one of the most important wizarding laws! Why this doesn't gel very well with the `it happened twice' theory is that in that version of events you *have* *to* change time. The whole point of the `it happened twice' theory is that it happens once without the aid of the time-travellers, and once with it. That is, they change time and that's their point. In contrast, the whole point of the internally consistent singular time-travel theory is that going back in time you *don't* change time at all. Therefore, trying to change time in an internally consistent time-line is much more cataclysmic. It causes an impossible paradox, which, if forced to occur would essentially bring on the end of the world. Whereas, in the `it happened twice' theory you can just keep going back in to time to fix whatever you're done wrong. There become lesser repercussions of changing time, because someone can always go back in time to fix it. That is, if Harry did get soul-sucked in PoA, Dumbledore could always send Ron (or someone) back in time to stop it happening. Dumbledore could go back in time at the end of OotP and stop Sirius falling through the veil. Whereas, in the internally consistent singular time-line things happen and no matter how hard you try you can't go back and change them. That is, your actions have consequences, because you can't undo them. So, if you want to support the `it happened twice' version of events in PoA, there are several questions that you must answer: Why is there such a big deal made over `not changing time?' That is, If it's a multi-occurring time-line, then changing time is the whole point. Why is "one of the most important wizarding laws" devoted to stopping people changing time? Why are time-tuners even allowed if they change time? Who cast the Patronus the first time? Where was s/he the second time? Or, Why didn't s/he try to cast the Patronus the second time? How did s/he change their appearance to resemble James Potter? Or, How did they make Harry have a `vision' of James Potter over the lake> What is the point of Harry casting the Patronus if he doesn't have to? If Harry can change time and suffer no consequences, why not just send one version of himself back to use Buckbeak to rescue Sirius, and another version of himself to catch Wormtail? Why not run back into the Time Room at the Department of Mysteries to see if he can't find a suitable time-turner and save Sirius's life? Why doesn't Dumbledore go back in time and get rid of Riddle while he still can? And, as far as I'm aware, there is no canon to support the 'it happened twice theory' at all. Rather, people choose to support it not because it is proven in canon, but because they would like the outcomes it could provide (as in, Lupin is James or Snape Saved Harry). That's completely legitimate, as I said in my previous post (#79043) I accept that the 'it happened twice' theory has great potential to develop into something exciting. So, if you want to accept the `it only happened once' theory of time- travel, then you don't have to do any work. JKR and I have done it all for you. However, if you want to support the `it happened twice' theory then you've got some work to do... Oh, and please, support the `it happened twice' theory if you do. I'm only saying that *I* don't agree with it. I've conceded above that it is entirely possible (however unlikely, IMO). ~<(Laurasia)>~ From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Thu Aug 28 05:36:44 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 22:36:44 -0700 Subject: FILK - "Tonight - Quintet" Message-ID: <410-22003842853644464@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 79046 "Tonight - Quintet" An OoP "Hogwarts Story" filk to "Tonight, Reprise" from the movie "West Side Story." Dedicated to CMC - "Great minds think alike" (Scene: the afternoon before the battle at the Ministry of Magic. The DEATH EATERS - Malfoy, McNair, Avery, Crabbe, Jugson, Dolohov, Rookwood, Mulciber, Nott, and Rodolphus and Rabastan LeStrange are planning their strategy; Members of THE ORDER of the Phoenix (Lupin, Moody, Tonks, Kingsley, and Sirius Black) are planning their counter-strategy; BELLATRIX prepares herself for a night of romance; VOLDEMORT looks forward to the culmination of all his plans; and HARRY prepares himself to go into battle. THE DEATH EATERS: The Death Eaters will have our day, tonight! We're gonna make that Potter pay, tonight! We'll trick him into coming right here, And then we're gonna jump him, as soon as he's near! THE ORDER: We're gonna stop them in their tracks, tonight! They'd really better watch their backs, tonight! We know they're going after Harry, And we can catch them all at the Ministry. DEATH EATERS: We're gonna get him tonight! We're gonna lure him here and have us a ball! THE ORDER: We're gonna stop 'em tonight! A trip to Azkaban's in store for them all! DEATH EATERS: We're gonna get him! THE ORDER: We're gonna stop them! DEATH EATERS and THE ORDER: We're gonna win this time for once and for all, Tonight! BELLATRIX: The two of us will get our kicks, tonight! The Dark Lord and his Bellatrix, tonight! We'll get rid of Rodolphus, poor dear. 'Cause I don't need Rodolphus when Voldemort's here. VOLDEMORT and HARRY: Tonight . . . VOLDEMORT Tonight. My troubles end tonight. I'll bring that Potter boy to his knees! Tonght, tonight, The mystery ends tonight. Finally I will hear the prophecy! HARRY: Today, all day I had a vision Of Sirius in danger. I know now I was right! VOLDEMORT and HARRY: The Ministry will be my destination, Tonight! (During the remainder of the number, VOLDEMORT, HARRY and BELLATRIX will be heard singing reprises of what they have just sung). DEATH EATERS: The Death Eaters are gonna win, tonight! Our reign of terror now begins, tonight! That wretched Potter brat will Go down. And when we've finished with him, We'll tear up the town. LUCIUS (to Avery): We'll stick together in there. AVERY: Right! LUCIUS (to McNair): We'll get the prophecy first. MCNAIR: Right! LUCIUS (with proper punch): One, two, three! DOLOHOV (with proper punch): One, two, three! LUCIUS: And then we'll have us a ball, Tonight! (ORDER and DEATH EATERS sing simultaneously, along with VOLDEMORT, HARRY, and BELLATRIX): THE ORDER: We're gonna beat 'em tonight. We're gonna stop 'em tonight. They tricked Potter - they tricked Potter And we're the ones to stop 'em once and for all! The Order's gonna have our way, The Order's gonna have our day, We're gonna stop 'em tonight - Tonight! THE DEATH EATERS: Gonna get him! Gonna get him! That Potter's gonna go down! The Death Eaters'll have our day, The Death Eaters'll have our way, We're gonna get him tonight - Tonight! I'm nearly finished! ::doing happy dance:: This is the penultimate number in "Hogwarts Story" - the final song, plus two short finales, will be up very soon - possibly tomorrow. :-) Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 28 06:48:42 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:48:42 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79047 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ioogooi" wrote: > Wanda wrote: > > I have no > > problem with the small amount of "decorative" Christian influence > > she's introduced so far; "God bless you, merry Hippogriffs" just > > struck me as a joke, and the references to Christmas and Easter > > vacations, it seems to me, are just methods of carrying over Muggle > > normality into the WW. If she called them "Solstice Holidays", > we'd notice it too much and think that she was making some serious > point about wizard beliefs and worship; this way, it just points up > the similarity between the two worlds. They have holidays just like > we do. C.S. Lewis did this in 'The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe', > > where Narnia was a land imprisoned by a witch so that it was always > > winter, "but never Christmas". One just accepts this; if you try > to figure out how a world that doesn't know Christ can have Christmas, > > the whole story just comes to a stop. >>> > > > Hi Wanda, > It's funny that you mentioned C.S. Lewis, because he's a writer that > was very interested in Christianity. He might be the exact opposite > of JK Rowling in terms of putting religions themes and values into > his stories. While Rowling doesn't go extensively into religion, it > does reflect certain modern attitudes to religion. And I don't think > it's all that fatal to talk about religion in the Harry Potter > books. I think it makes the story more interesting and indepth, even > if it's only extraneous speculation from the reader's end. > > Liz More than "interested". He was a Christian, a Protestant evangelical who wrote extensively on Christian matters. LWW was intended as a way of introducing young people to the truths of the Christian message. I have remarked in a previous post that he was converted to Christianity while at Oxford due to the influence of Hugo Dyson and JRR Tolkien, who curiously was a devout Catholic. Both these writers used their faith to underpin their writings. JKR writes enough in her books for people like myself to be able to draw on HP when making points with young people's groups in the churc. Geoff From gbannister10 at aol.com Thu Aug 28 06:53:17 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 06:53:17 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79048 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "David" wrote: > Elkins wrote: > > > (c) dark magic may well have a corrosive power over those > > who use it even above and beyond the normal levels of > > moral degradation that accompany the commission of > > evil acts. > David: > Well, I have always found it difficult to understand what is meant > by 'dark magic' if not that. > > It seems relatively easy to hurt or kill someone - at least Muggles - > by magic, but that doesn't apparently make it *dark* magic. > Whereas some magic (such as hatching a Basilisk, IIRC) is dark > whatever the intention, apparently. > > That said, 'dark' still seems to fall short of 'unforgivable', and I > think it's plausible that Bellatrix's comment gives something of an > explanation. Though I hope in JKR's moral universe evil intent + > dark magic + actual harm don't amount to actual unforgivability. Dark magic is surely magic used for an evil end. Can you suggest situations where the Cruciatus Curse, the Imperius Curse or the Avada Kedavra Curses could be used to constructive ends? I believe they are implicitly dark and evil and, hence, unforgiveable. Geoff From EnsTren at aol.com Thu Aug 28 07:04:05 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 03:04:05 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unforgiveable and dark magic Message-ID: <146.17f466b1.2c7f0365@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79049 In a message dated 8/28/2003 2:55:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: > Dark magic is surely magic used for an evil end. Can you suggest > situations where the Cruciatus Curse, the Imperius Curse or the Avada > Kedavra Curses could be used to constructive ends? I believe they are > implicitly dark and evil and, hence, unforgiveable. > > Geoff > Imperius could be used to help people overcome their phobias. Put them under it and make them do what ever it is they fear, move them away and release them. It could also be used on paniced people to lead them to safty or make them calm down. Killing curse is a humane method of putting someone, or something, out of their misery. I'm sure Sir Nicholas de Pimsy (or whatever) would have welcomed an AK after the tenth stroke of the Ax. The curtatious curse, I admit, is a difficult one. But couldn't it be used to determin nerve damnage? Let's say someone cracked their neck or something, or was cut deep. A Petrificus Totalus to keep them from moving, one split second crucio, and then release them after a bit and ask them if it hurt everywhere. Nerve damage = no pain. If you argue the crutatious goes straight to your brain as it were you could still use ti to check brain activity in someone in a coma, how they react to it, for instance, they might even wake up for all we know. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Thu Aug 28 07:32:56 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:32:56 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79050 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jdr0918" wrote: > <<<"quigonginger" wrote...We are about 10% of the population...So > what do y'all think? Is there a reason that not one of the > characters in Harry Potter has been distinguished as being left- > handed?...>>> > > The Sergeant Majorette says > > 10%? That's all? So Harry is right-handed (probably to further > indicate how incredibly average he is), but how about Ron for a > lefty, or for sure one of the twins? Fred, I'd say. He's the one I > picked in a "which Weasley is gay?" poll because he seems a little > more caustic than George. Then there's Aberforth Dumbledore (who I > bet we'll see a lot more of) and of course, Luna and Tonks. I read > somewhere that the one surest cause of stuttering in a child absent > neurological damage is forcing handedness. And when I was a kid > trying to acquire hep handicaps, I found that you do everything > mirror when you let your 'other' hand do its thing. Maybe Neville is > a natural lefty forced into opposite handedness as a function of a > Memory Charm or some other plot point. Suppose, when he gets his own > wand, Ollivander fits him as a lefty? > > Not as much fun as the "who's gay" brouhaha, but a good one with a > lot of promise! > Tunks is right-handed, as we see her cast a spell holding Hedwigs cage in the left hand, and her wand in her right hand. Lupin probably is as well, as he summons the bus with his right arm, even if he did chain his right arm to Peters left arm in PoA. The same goes for Snape (he holds Trevor in his left hand, while holding a spoon full of potion in his right hand). Ron's right hand was sore from polishing plaques. Also, Hermione used her right hand to take out her wand while holding Harrys robe in her left hand. However, I did spot one left-handed character: Peter Pettigrew. When cutting off a finger, he cuts one off on his right hand, so I doubt he writes with that hand, and he later follows this up by cutting off his right arm! He has a new arm, but still, I doubt he would have done that if he was right-handed. Oh, and Neville certainly could be left handed. After all, when Madam Hooch had everyone put their right hand over their broom and say "Up", his didn't move, and it may have been because he should have used his left hand... --Arcum, who is also left-handed From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 07:41:26 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:41:26 -0000 Subject: Harry & Sirius - certain similarities (LONG) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79051 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lily_paige_delaney" wrote: > I was thinking last night that there are an extraordinary number > of similarities between Harry and Sirius. The ones that spring to > mind are: > > - both grew up in families which are bigots (the Blacks against > anything not pureblood and the Dursleys against wizards or anyone > not 'normal') > There are probably other similarites but this is all I can think > of for now. The big question is will Harry, like Sirius, run away > from home when he is 16? And we can only hope that he doesn't > follow the rest of Sirius' life pattern! This is exactly why I brought up Harry's many doppelgangers in my OOtP review, posted on my LJ back in June. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/psychic_serpent/1099.html#cutid1 ) In the end, I think that while Sirius' death was quite literal (he really is dead--JKR said so ) it's also a symbolic death--the part of Harry that's so similar to Sirius HAS to die in order for him to be reborn from his ashes (like the phoenix) and shoulder his burden. Sirius is the worst possible role model for Harry, and yet, because of their similarities, becoming like Sirius was a definite danger for him. Something I didn't think of at the time I wrote the review was the way Harry immediately tried to get revenge on Bellatrix for Sirius' murder, just as Sirius went after Peter. (And it is worth noting that, as a family member of Sirius', Bellatrix and Peter are both not merely enemies but TRAITORS.) The more one looks, the more the similarities jump out of the text. It is also significant, I think, that in CoS, Harry was very nervous about the similarities that Tom Riddle had pointed out between the two of them, as though that meant that Harry was destined to travel down the same path (the Sorting Hat's assertion about his doing well in Slytherin didn't help, of course). However, although Tom Riddle was in fact another Harry doppelganger, he wasn't the doppelganger Harry should have been worried about becoming. And I think that one of the most prophetic things Dumbledore ever said was that it takes just as much nerve to stand up to our friends as to our enemies. Neville Longbottom had that ability way back in his first year! As I said in my LJ review, I think that Neville is being presented as a new and better role model for Harry, not least because of this particular ability, and not just because he was another possible candidate to fulfill the Prophecy. (Although one has to wonder whether this is ominous--if Harry will eventually need to stand up to someone who's a friend, now that Sirius is gone, who might that turn out to be?) Lupin admitted that he didn't have the ability to stand up to his friends at all and we saw in OotP that Ron can't do this either (of course, Fred and George running amok was one of the most enjoyable things about the book ). We saw the result of a "friend" (Marietta) betraying the DA in OotP. Harry has waffled back and forth on this ability (although he has such strength of mind he was able to throw off Imperius, which I think is significant), and we get a glimpse of why Sirius was hard to keep in check when he tries to bully Harry into doing things he claims James would have done. Harry doesn't give in, even when Sirius is rather nasty. I wrote something about this recently on another group: ------------------------------------- Now that I've read the fifth book, it's become clearer to me that Sirius had two personalities: his "free-Sirius" personality and his "imprisoned-Sirius" personality. His "free" personality was in evidence in his youth. He roamed the castle at will, ran around under the full moon with a werewolf and his other Animagus friends, and even left home at the age of sixteen. This personality is the one that makes him seem like so much fun--he's jovial, daring, and encourages others around him to take risks too. (Although the negative side to this personality actually makes him seem a bit like an alcoholic who encourages others to drink, so that his drinking is 'okay' in comparison, since others are doing it too. By encouraging others to take risks--his addiction, IMO--his own risk- taking is considered to be okay. This is part of the conflict he has with Harry in OotP.) This personality is also seen in PoA and especially GoF, when he roams around Hogsmeade looking for newspapers, meets Harry in a mountainside cave, and breaks into a wizarding house to use the Floo network to talk to Harry. (A foreshadowing for Harry using Umbridge's office?) He is engaging in a lot of risky behavior, but it is also clear that he is happy, in his element, and doesn't care that he might be caught. The risk of being caught is part of the thrill--he clearly gets off on it. It gives him a rush like nothing else. At the other end of the spectrum is the "imprisoned" Sirius, who hates being cooped up as much as "free" Sirius loves to run loose. This is who he was during all of his Azkaban years, and in part of PoA (when he thinks he might go back to Azkaban) and OotP. In the fifth book he is imprisoned again, he feels like a coward for not taking risks and running around loose (Snape "helps" him with this) and he's also subjected to dementors again, of a kind (his mother's screaming portrait and Kreacher). ------------------------------------------- We see glimpses of Harry displaying a similar kind of split personality--"free" Harry gets to play Quidditch and go to the Burrow in the summer. "Imprisoned" Harry feels cooped up on Privet Drive and cannot say what he wants at Hogwarts about Voldemort having returned. He's so much like Sirius sometimes in OotP that it's spooky. (See LJ review, link above.) I think that back in CoS when JKR even made readers fear that Harry might become evil because of his similarities to Riddle, it was a red herring; the real danger was that he would be tempted to become like someone he liked and admired, such as Sirius, but still someone who was a dreadful role model. I don't think it's a coincidence that JKR calls "Unforgivable" a curse that takes away your will and makes you feel light and happy and willing to do whatever someone else tells you to do. Giving up control in this way is truly awful, and yet plenty of people in this world do it without having a spell cast upon them. Dumbledore did not give those ten points to Neville for nothing; they not only put Gryffindor over for the House Cup, IMO his words about what Neville did were meant to be a very real warning about hewing to your own principles and not being seduced by attractive words--even when they come from those we should be able to trust the most. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 08:39:37 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 08:39:37 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79052 **angelberri56** >This is really random, and probably has nothing to do with Harry, >but I just thought I might put it out there.... > >I was reading a post about Lily's eyes, and a thought just popped >into my head. In "The Secret Garden", which is a musical, and >also a book, there's a song called "Lily's Eyes"... It goes >something like... >Anyway... it's talking about two characters- Colin and Lily. The >song is about how Colin has his (dead) mother's eyes. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It's really weird you should mention this, I posted the same thought on Sunday in message #78672. But the song's not about Colin, it's about Mary. It's when Neville Craven reveals he was also in love with his brother Archibald's wife, Lily loved Archibald even though Neville could not understand why, and how Mary has Lily's eyes. I'm working on a FILK :-) (assuming I can find a sound clip to post) ~Margaret who reverses Harry's characteristics and looks just like her mother, but with her father's eyes :-) From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 10:00:48 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:00:48 -0000 Subject: Another LV Blunder - was Fudge is a DE In-Reply-To: <3F4D413F.50904@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79053 Jazmyn:" They {the DE's in Azkaban] escaped because the Dementors RETURNED TO LV! As I said before, the MOM only thought they could control the Dementors. Dumbledore WARNED Fudge to remove the Dementors from Askaban and find different guards before, but Fudge didn't believe that LV was back or that the Dementors would return to LV's side. Fudge couldn't send the Dementors to look for the 10 DEs cause the Dementors had already deserted Azkaban to return to LV, which was what allowed the 10 DEs to escape. The MOM tried to cover up the fact the Dementors left, fearing a panic would sweep through the WW if people found out the MOM didn't have control over them, like they thought." This has to go down on the ever-longer list of Voldemort's blunders, actually. Voldemort naturally is compared to Hitler often enough, but one of the things he has most in common with the Fuhrer is his megalomaniacal screw-ups. There was never a need to stage the Azkaban breakouts. With the Dementors on his side, Voldemort should have continued to operate Azkaban as his base. So, if a DE is captured and brought to Azkaban, the Dementors are waiting to lead him away. If that moron Fudge shows up for an inspection tour, he finds the Lestranges in their cells ? and nobody is the wiser. It's actually another argument against Fudge being an active Death Eater. If I was Voldemort and had as prominent an agent-in-place as Fudge, I'd avoid embarrassing him and making him look bad compared to Dumbledore. Outing himself at this stage is a huge reversal for Voldemort, who needed more time to gather strength, and he lost most or all of his Ministry spies, including Lucius Malfoy. AFAIC, the vindication of Harry and Dumbledore this early in the War was by far the biggest surprise of the book. Jim Ferer From gromm at cards.lanck.net Wed Aug 27 20:05:51 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 00:05:51 +0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Religion References: <1c3.e2a6a85.2c7d4d8f@aol.com> Message-ID: <000201c36d4f$b3113840$6242983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 79054 Sherrie wrote: > When I read that comment, I was reminded of Bishops Duncan & Arilan in the > Deryni books... Maria here: Interesting that you mentioned the Deryni books. In them magic is also an inborn talent and a science, but the Derynis are pursued by some prejudiced clerics who think the Deryni magic is evil and satanic. Reminds of some modern clerics, doesn't it? And I thought I lived in the 20th century...Never mind, I know what I see, and no priest is going to dissuade me! Defiantly, Maria. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Thu Aug 28 10:37:52 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 10:37:52 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79055 This will for always be my dear, but sort of silly, little fanfic speculati= on, but I'm still going to ruthlessly expose the poor little thing to the public. I've never = seen this theory anywhere, so even if someone else has already suggested the possibil= ity, I still claim ownership. :) Here goes: Severus Snape is the son of Lucius Malfoy's = sister. I'll explain how it works. Facts and assumed facts: Lucius Malfoy was born in 1954 (41 in OotP), Severus Snape in 1960. To make= the age difference between this uncle and nephew work, I place the birth of the Mal= foy sister some ten or so years before her brother, which means that she was about six= teen in 1960. It's young, but not unreasonable so. She could always have been even = older than Lucius, but the early pregnancy fits my theory, so I'm going with this= . Alright, next: I believe that Snape is a halfblood, as was suggested on the list a while b= ack (sorry I can't give credit; I thought I had the number of the post, but it turned ou= t to be the wrong one). Making the safe assumption that the Malfoys are purebloods, tha= t means that Snape's father was a muggle or a muggleborn, possibly squib. It fits m= y theory, though, that the man has no magical powers, so disregard the possiblity of = a muggleborn for a minute. I also think it's pretty safe to assume that the p= arents of Lucius and his sister are not much unlike the Blacks: proud purebloods, dar= k arts enthusiasts, bigots and racists. Snape's childhood memory shows him as the small boy crying in a corner whil= e his father is shouting at his mother. I, for one, am sure that Harry's assumpti= on was right and Snape is in fact the little boy; if he was the grown man, Harry would h= ave recognised him. That obviously means his parents did not have a healthy rel= ationship. Snape addressed Draco Malfoy as "Draco" in his office when Draco interrupts= the Occlumency lesson (the "Snape's worst memory" chapter). Of course he does, = they're cousins! The events: Here's how I think it all happened. About 15 or 16 years old, the Malfoy si= ster accidentally gets pregnant with a muggle/squib. Her parents go ballistic an= d blasts her off the Malfoy family tree, if there ever was one. Their daughter is ki= cked out of home and marries her Mr Snape. Some time after that wedding, the Malfoy sis= ter confesses that she is a witch. And just like the elder Tom Riddle, Mr Snape= is not happy. But he has married the woman and sees no way out. He gets bitter and= abusive. A simplified description - feel free to fill in the blanks. Okay. So why is Lucius Malfoy so friendly with Severus Snape today? I see t= wo possibilites. A: Lucius Malfoy is only about six years old when his older s= ister disappears from the family. It's possible he never even found out what real= ly happened to her, let alone her new surname. So if that's the case, he's not= aware of his relationship to Snape. B: Lucius and Severus met each other via the Sly= therin gang or at a DE meeting, Lucius realised that his nephew had the "right values",= and they became friends on the basis of common interests. And that's the theory. Let's call it Lucia. Am I nuts? Let me know. :) evangelina, who had to turn her lights back on during AM hours last night j= ust to write this down yawn From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 11:20:56 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:20:56 -0000 Subject: Fudge behind empty MoM In-Reply-To: <20030828005655.91265.qmail@web20707.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79056 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Scott Santangelo wrote: > > Tamee Livingston wrote: > How could the DEs guarantee an empty ministry when Harry got there? I guess Voldemort could have tracked Harry's movements through their connection, but that still doesn't satisfy me. > > > owlery2003 commented: I think that's the proof that Fudge really is a disciple of Voldemort. Only Fudge would have the authority (under the guise of blind stupidity) to order a virtual evacuation of the MoM, leaving it > wide open to almost anything. Can't wait to hear the "reason" he gives in the next book for that seemingly bone-headed move, and I bet DD sees right through it. Bring out the veritaserum, Snape! > > > Lziner commented: > Isn't it possible that the MoM - like many government offices - has business hours and is closed after a certain time of day? It makes sense to me. The bigger question is if they are closed how in heck did Harry get in? > > ----------------- > > Good point - we hear repeated references to going to and from work at certain times (Arthur), and overtime. There's no canon for the hours, though given what's available to be had there (mysteries, prophesies, time turners!) you'd think it would be guarded 24-7. Certain enchantments seem effective, though too many people to use the "secret keeper" thing. All those fireplaces must connect to somewhere . . . are they "lockable" after hours? Don't know . . . > > owlery2003 > > Another thing it doesn't explain is the ease in which Harry and crew were able to access the MOM, or why Eric or another guard was not at their post. I think at the end of the battle when Fudge arrived, Eric showed up. Also, people often work longer than their normal shift to catch up on work and such. Another thing, Fudge's statement in The Daily Prophet sounded as if he were underplaying (if that is a word) LV's return. Why wasn't he trying to rally the troops so to speak. Why didn't he say something like We need to all work together to fight Lord Thingy, and defeat him. I guess the packet of info that the MOM was sending to all the wizard families on protecting their homes was enough? Fran From scootingalong at bellsouth.net Thu Aug 28 12:34:13 2003 From: scootingalong at bellsouth.net (scooting2win) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:34:13 -0000 Subject: Question about James In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79057 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Christy" wrote: > Lori pointed out: > > Small note: The Lexicon does say that Harry is half-blood, with a > > muggle-born witch mother, and a wizard father. It's under the new > > section of Blood Status. Not that it's going to help you find out > > about James' parents, which I was hoping it would. But it at least > > answers this one question. James' family had to be a wizarding > > family because it states that James is a wizard not a half- blood. > > Oh... oops, I missed that. But it does help a bit. It also makes me a > little more confused. If James' family is in fact a wizarding family > then how is it that Harry has no other living relatives? Did LV really > kill that many people, and would he kill people that were wizarding > families? Ok, maybe a dumb question as he killed James without blinking. > > What I was wondering though is that if James' family was indeed a > wizarding family, and what Sirius has said is true (that is, that > wizarding families are very intermixed) shouldn't Harry be related to > somebody else? > > Unless James' parents are mudbloods, which is entirely reasonable. And > this has probably been discussed before... But not recently that I'm > aware of. Does anybody have anything that could help explain this? > > Now thoroughly confused... > Christy The Lexicon pointed out something else that might help you, this is JKR's little world that she wants it. So IMO, because it's her world, she may explain how harry came from a Wizard family (his father) or she may not think it's very important for us to know. I think in book 7, harry will get to see his family tree, like Blacks tapestry. Maybe Harry will get his or get to see his when he is close to being out of school. Lori From quigonginger at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 12:54:35 2003 From: quigonginger at yahoo.com (quigonginger) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 12:54:35 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79058 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: (snip) > However, I did spot one left-handed character: Peter Pettigrew. When > cutting off a finger, he cuts one off on his right hand, so I doubt he > writes with that hand, and he later follows this up by cutting off his > right arm! He has a new arm, but still, I doubt he would have done > that if he was right-handed. > > --Arcum, who is also left-handed (and, in Ginger's opinion, brilliant for coming up with this plus what I snipped) Ginger replies: Hmm, the Rat himself! Kneasy also mentioned that Prof. Sinistra might be. I was trying to remember, when writing my original post, the Latin connection between "left-handed" and "sinister", but I never got as far as thinking of Prof. Sinistra! Kneasy, can you help with the details on this? Maybe we should be watching for left-handed characters if they are going to be bad guys! Talk about negative stereotyping! :) You had also mentioned Neville as a possibility. Maybe that's how LV will meet his fall. Ambidexterious Neville will have two wands, and will keep LV busy so Harry can blast him into smithereens! Ginger, who feels *so* much better being connected with a traitorous rat. <----sarcasm From emmathelegend at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 07:28:19 2003 From: emmathelegend at hotmail.com (punkstarz85) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:28:19 -0000 Subject: Emma's post on a mistake in the prophecy In-Reply-To: <20030827224922.59301.qmail@web80703.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79059 Emma said: > > The Prophecy states something along the line of Harry or Voldemort > must murder the other for the remaining to live. However unless I'm > forgetting something, in order to do so, they must duel. I can't see > either going silently or unwillingly, can you? > > Aesha: > > I don't think this is really negates the prophecy, or creates a FLINT or anything. There's plenty of ways to kill someone without dueling with them. You could use the AK, send them a little bit of devil's snare, heck, you could drop an anvil on them if you wanted. So I don't think that the fact that priori incantatem took effect will really matter, because I think Voldemort would be smart enough to think of some other way to get rid of Harry (and I think he'd probably use the AK, since he's missed Harry with it twice now!) My (Emma's) Reply: You seem to forget the way Voldemort works, he doesn't just kill his victims, at least not his important ones, he plays with them first. I took my examples from the fact that James, Sirius, and most of the Order (as Harry was told by Mad Eye Moody) were killed via a duel with either a Death Eater, or Lord Voldemort himself. Do you really believe that J.K Rowling is going to end this 7 part story by Voldemort sending Harry devil's snare or vice versa. By raising the point, I wasn't aiming for you to list the possible ways to kill a wizard using magic. Simply by reading the previous books, it's obvious Lord Voldemort is going to try AK, the question is, how is Harry going to kill Lord Voldemort? From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 13:03:07 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:03:07 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79060 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" wrote: > I applaud the effort. > > However, the problem I have with this is in the battle near the > fountain of the MOM why wouldn't have DD have allowed LV to kill > Harry (thus making him mortal) and THEN finish LV before he knew what > hit him? > > Game set match. > > However... that didn't happen which leads me to beleive that the > answer isn't necessairly in your explaination. A good point. It seems clear at least that Dumbledore felt the circumstances in the MoM weren't quite right. If Harry has to kill Voldemort this certainly makes more sense. Harry may have to learn some skill or spell to be able to kill Voldemort, or his friends may have to somehow influence the fight. If Harry has to die however, it could be that the part of Voldemort inside of him isn't ready yet. I hate to get all fluffy-cutesy- carebear on you, but perhaps Harry first has to experience real passionate romantic love for all this to work. Perhaps Harry has to learn more about his mother and father and the love they had for him. Perhaps Harry first has to realize just how much he is loved by the people around him. Or perhaps Wormtail first has to give his life to save Harry for Voldemort to fully realize the power of love. I'm sure that Voldemort wouldn't just change because he finally feels love, there will probably have to be a fierce psychological battle before Voldemort becomes human again. The part of Voldemort inside of Harry may simply not be ready for this. And why hasn't Dumbledore been constantly training Harry in dueling techniques if he knew Harry would someday have to kill Voldemort? -Maus From ebren at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 13:08:54 2003 From: ebren at hotmail.com (James) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:08:54 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus and Electricity (Was: Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: In-Reply-To: <20030826222444.91710.qmail@web21414.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79061 Freddie: > Most likely, they [the ww]co-opt certain Muggle inventions that do > things better/faster/easier than magic can, but otherwise, > why would they *want* do do things the Muggle way? Note > that they have a bus, but still write with quills on > parchment. Myself (James): This has always annoyed me. (along with the fact Gringots changes muggle money to wizarding money, and any half decent wizard could transfigure stuff into muggle money - and even if they had a 'has been transfigured' checker the wizard could just buy some gum and get change...hufff). Harry hides under his bedclothes trying not to spill his bottle of ink and not to scratch his quill so it sprays. Get a biro. They wear jeans and jumpers and the like - but is a simple biro beyond them. Fine enchant the exam quills so you can't cheat but use a biro for homework - surely. Ok I accept that harry likes the WW and wants to use its artefacts but when he is in risk of serious trouble if he spills ink then a biro/ballpoint/pencil/fountain-pen would be safer. Will calm down now James From liliana at worldonline.nl Thu Aug 28 13:35:28 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:35:28 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79062 Funny how people can independently come up with a theory with great similarities.....Almost magic! I had been making up a theory like that of evangelina839 but with some differences. I'll explain these on the way. evangelina839wrote: > This will for always be my dear, but sort of silly, little fanfic speculati= > on, but I'm still > going to ruthlessly expose the poor little thing to the public. I've never = > seen this > theory anywhere, so even if someone else has already suggested the possibil= > ity, I still > claim ownership. :) Lilian: No problem. >Evangelina839: > Here goes: Severus Snape is the son of Lucius Malfoy's = > sister. I'll explain how it works. Lilian: My idea is that Snape's mother is the sister of Lucius'father. That explains the age difference rather neatly. It also makes Lucius and Severus cousins, which I like better, especially when regarding the way the two will behave towards each other. In your case is Lucius in fact the uncle of Severus, which gives a different kind of authority between the two of them, even if the age difference is rather small. > Evangelina839:. Alright, > next: > > I believe that Snape is a halfblood, as was suggested on the list a while back (sorry I can't give credit; I thought I had the number of the post, but it turned out to be the > wrong one). Making the safe assumption that the Malfoys are purebloods, that means that Snape's father was a muggle or a muggleborn, possibly squib. It fits my theory, > though, that the man has no magical powers, so disregard the possiblity of a muggleborn for a minute. I also think it's pretty safe to assume that the parents of > Lucius and his sister are not much unlike the Blacks: proud purebloods, dark arts > enthusiasts, bigots and racists. Lilian: Snape's father can still be a pureblood. My idea is that he is but from a very poor family, so not in the same class (by a long way) as the Malfoys. Snape sr. saw a chance of marrying wealth and perhaps power through Miss Malfoy, but after their marriage (by elopement?) she was disinherited and disclaimed by the Malfoys. So Snape sr. was worse of then before as he now also had to provide for his wife and child which was by then probably on the way. To say at least, not such a great start for a relationship. > Snape's childhood memory shows him as the small boy crying in a corner while his father is shouting at his mother. I, for one, am sure that Harry's assumption was right > and Snape is in fact the little boy; if he was the grown man, Harry would have > recognised him. That obviously means his parents did not have a healthy relationship. Lilian: If you marry for money and power and end up with less, it's not unexpected that you shout at your wife. It was all her fault of course. Nope, no healthy relationship, if ever there was one. Evangelina83"9: > Snape addressed Draco Malfoy as "Draco" in his office when Draco interrupts the Occlumency lesson (the "Snape's worst memory" chapter). Of course he does, they're cousins! Lilian: It's also possible if Draco's father and Snape are cousins, their familyrelationship is close enough. Especially if you take into mind that Snape has most contact with LV and the DE's through Lucius. Evangelina839: > Okay. So why is Lucius Malfoy so friendly with Severus Snape today? I see two possibilites. > A: Lucius Malfoy is only about six years old when his older > sister disappears from the family. It's possible he never even found out what really > happened to her, let alone her new surname. So if that's the case, he's not aware of his relationship to Snape. > B: Lucius and Severus met each other via the Slytherin gang > or at a DE meeting, Lucius realised that his nephew had the "right values",= > and they > became friends on the basis of common interests. > > And that's the theory. Let's call it Lucia. Am I nuts? Let me know. :) > > evangelina, who had to turn her lights back on during AM hours last night j= > ust to > write this down yawn Lilian: No, you're not nuts at all IMO. I would even like to go a bit further and give Miss Malfoy (now Mrs. Snape) a first name.... Agnes, perhaps? The lady with her head covered in fur in St. Mungo's? Why, you might ask? Well, ever since reading the end of GOF (especially Snape's sudden movement) I have been wondering if a close relative of Snape would be in St. Mungo's. Although what we know of this Agnes is not much to conclude that she is Snape's mother, still there are a few things..... 1) It would give JKR (or Snape or both) a first rate legitimate reason to let Snape go to St. Mungo's on a regular basis. The only difficulty that I have with this is why hasn't Neville ever met him? Oh well.... But having Snape go to St. Mungo's could tie in with the continuous incapacity of the Longbottoms.... He is a potion master, after all. 2) I have no idea how a long-term stay in St. Mungo's is financed but I can imagine that relatives will have to pay and that is not cheap. So Lucius Malfoy is paying for his aunt's upkeep, by donating large sums to St. Mungo's, and Snape is in his debt, in addition to their familyrelation. Could give another twist to the coming stories. As additional proof that the upkeep is (partly) paid by relatives I offer the description of the clothes that Neville's gran wears, which sounds to me as impovered gentility. Most likely because paying the St. Mungo's bills is becoming rather difficult. 3) In the Pensieve-scene Snape sees the dog chasing Harry, but Harry also remembers Hermione while in the hospital with her head covered in fur. My take is that Snape makes a subconscious connection with his own mother and therefore makes the otherwise irrelevant question about who the dog belonged to. Lilian, who really had to get this out of her system as well, although she ought to work.... From mkeller01 at alltel.net Thu Aug 28 13:38:19 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:38:19 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79063 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > > Hi, I have a little theory I would like to share... > > I predict that Harry will die, but not willingly in some emotional > overly dramatic act of self-sacrifice as so many seem to think. > Voldemort will kill Harry, and for a moment at least Voldemort will > be completely victorious. > > The prophecy states that: "neither can live while the other > survives". In Harry's case this makes sense; while Voldemort is out > there killing the ones he loves and threatening to take over Harry's > mind, Harry will never be able to live a normal life. But what about > Voldemort? Why exactly is it that Voldemort can't live while Harry is > around? What's preventing him from abandoning this whole world > domination/immortality thing, moving to a nice warm tropical island, > and making loads of money of his best selling autobiography 'How I > became the Dark Lord'? He could use the tan. The answer I think can > be found in PS, near the end Dumbledore tells Harry: "He is still out > there somewhere, perhaps looking for another body to share... *not > being truly alive*, he cannot be killed." So what if, in Voldemort's > case, 'neither can live while the other survives' refers to the fact > that he at the moment is actually not truly alive? It would then be > only when Voldemort kills Harry that he becomes truly alive again, > and at the same time becomes mortal again. > > The key to all this lies in Harry's scar. In CoS Dumbledore tells > Harry that Voldemort unintentionally put a bit of himself in Harry > when the Avada Kedavra curse backfired. My guess is that a small part > of Voldemort's disembodied mind instinctively jumped to the nearest > living body it could find. (Did Voldemort perhaps unsuccessfully try > to possess Harry's body?) Harry's scar marks the place where this > part of Voldemort's mind dug its way into Harry's head. This explains > why his scar hurts whenever Voldemort is close by; the separated part > of Voldemort's mind desperately wants to rejoin with the rest of > Voldemort. This also explains why Harry can sometimes feel > Voldemort's emotions. When Dumbledore is examining the smoke serpent > in OotP, this is what he's talking about. The snakes represent the > separate parts of the Voldemort's mind, which share a bond but at the > same time are essentially divided. Both parts of his mind have > experienced completely different lives for the past 15 years. When > Voldemort then eventually kills Harry the separated part of > Voldemort's mind will finally be free to return to Voldemort. And it > will take with it everything it experienced while it was trapped in > Harry's body, including the love Harry experienced for the people > around him. > > When both parts of his mind are reunited Voldemort will directly > experience how much Harry was actually like him: both were orphans, > both had a very tough childhood being raised by Muggles, both were > half-bloods, they even looked alike when they were young. But unlike > Voldemort, Harry never chose to take revenge on the world, showing > Voldemort that it's not the situation we are placed in that > determines what we are. It's our choices that define what we truly > are. Not only that, Voldemort will also directly experience the love > Harry felt for the people around him. And it is this love that will > ultimately make Voldemort human again, and mortal. Because this is > Voldemort's great weakness, he cannot feel love or pain. It's because > of this that he is not truly alive. And it is this that is the fate > worse then death: living without ever experiencing love... or pain. > It's worse than death to never be truly alive. Lupin already told > Harry this when he told him about the Dementor's kiss in > PoA: "...they clamp their jaws upon the mouth of the victim and ? and > suck out his soul" Harry accidentally spat out a bit of his > butterbeer. "What ? they kill ??" "Oh no," said Lupin. "*Much worse > than that*. You can exist without your soul, you know, as long as > your brain and heart are still working." It's Voldemort's current > state of not feeling love and pain that is worse than death. > > So Voldemort can't possibly lose. He cannot be killed as long as he > is not truly alive, and he cannot live as long as Harry survives. > Assuming of course that 'not being truly alive, he cannot be killed' > was referring to the results of the one or more 'experiments' that > caused Voldemort to survive the rebounded Avada Kedavra curse. And of > course as soon as Voldemort does become mortal he will probably be > killed by Neville. Or Wormtail. > > And doesn't this seem like just the devious underhanded kind of thing > J.K. Rowling would come up with for an ending, making us believe for > a moment that the Dark Lord actually wins? > > -Maus This is the best theory I've heard yet. It makes a great deal of sense. The only small thing I can add to this is that perhaps Harry doesn't really have to die. I've been throwing this out for a while now, but I just can't help think that it will play a key role at the end of this series, and it may fit here: "..... a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." (chapter 8, PS/SS.) Snape brings it up in Harry's first potion lesson. Could they "trick" that portion of Voldemort's mind into leaving Harry? Just tossing it in. Toad (who just can't see JKR really killing off Harry) From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Thu Aug 28 13:42:54 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:42:54 -0000 Subject: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!/Stop Making Excuses In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79064 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: (snipped) There is an active kind > of evil, a "dark" evil, that is just for evil's sake. That's Voldemort. > > But then there's the egocentric "sin" of self-absorption. I think you > see this to a great extent in characters like Fudge (as well as > Lockhart and, to some extent, Lucius Malfoy). Notice how much emphasis > JKR puts on the flamboyant way these characters dress; Fudge is always > described as wearing some pinstripe-thing or another. That is, their > outward appearance is everything to them -- and prettying up any pesky > little disturbances like immorality or dark wizardry is more important > than actually taking action against them. (snipped) > My humble opinion > Entropy CW comments: Just a small contribution here - the 'pinstripes' that Fudge is always described as wearing are a slightly-dated, stereotypic 'uniform' for respectable top civil servant and business types in the UK, especially in London. I think JKR uses this dress style for Fudge to emphasise his standing as a senior MoM official, although, as such, the outward appearances are very important, of course. Personally, I love the lime green bowler hat touch, so nearly right, but at the same time, completely wrong. Would love to see Fudge interviewed on our evening news wearing it...... From dfrankiswork at netscape.net Thu Aug 28 13:48:26 2003 From: dfrankiswork at netscape.net (David) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:48:26 -0000 Subject: Another LV Blunder - was Fudge is a DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79065 Jim Ferer wrote: > There was never a need to stage the Azkaban breakouts. With the > Dementors on his side, Voldemort should have continued to operate > Azkaban as his base. So, if a DE is captured and brought to Azkaban, > the Dementors are waiting to lead him away. If that moron Fudge shows > up for an inspection tour, he finds the Lestranges in their cells ? > and nobody is the wiser. I think this depends on whether the DEs need to get away from Azkaban to recover, and the related question of the extent of the Dementors' allegience to Voldemort. I envisage Azkaban as a small island, where it's impossible to escape the presence of the Dementors, and where the Dementors cannot be relied upon to leave the DEs in peace to plot and apparate (indeed, undetected apparation may not be possible). If Voldemort wants an active, healthy, force, it probably means in practice that a breakout is necessary. David From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 13:49:46 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:49:46 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: <146.17f466b1.2c7f0365@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79066 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, EnsTren at a... wrote: > In a message dated 8/28/2003 2:55:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > gbannister10 at a... writes: > Can you suggest > situations where the Cruciatus Curse, the Imperius Curse or the Avada Kedavra Curses could be used to constructive ends? I believe they are implicitly dark and evil and, hence, unforgiveable. > > > > Geoff > > > > Imperius could be used to help people overcome their phobias. Put them under > it and make them do what ever it is they fear, move them away and release > them. It could also be used on paniced people to lead them to safty or make them > calm down. me: No, I don't think so. The 'patient' would not overcome the phobia, just 'walk through it' on your order. Once the curse was lifted the phobia would be there still, perhaps worse seeing that the patient was forced to--say walk over a bridge while being totally out of control of their own actions. Yep, feels good while under the spell but the cause of phobias is thought to be in most cases a lack of control. "I'm afraid of crossing bridges because the bridge might fall down--I can't hold the bridge up--etc..." The ONLY positive use I can see for Imperius would be in a life- threatening situation wherein someone was about to do in someone else or themselves. Even then, since we don't know every spell out there, I'm relatively sure here are more appropriate ones to use. > > Killing curse is a humane method of putting someone, or something, out of > their misery. I'm sure Sir Nicholas de Pimsy (or whatever) would have welcomed > an AK after the tenth stroke of the Ax. You know this for sure? Not to get too far into spiritualism here but as it's touched on in the books with ghosts, poltergeists and the infamous 'veil' I'd be willing to bet that AK destroys the soul. That is hardly a merciful death. I read somewhere (here? if it's anyone here who came up with this i apologise for not aknowledging you) that arch we see in OoP is this 'humane' method of carrying out the death penalty. It's a portal where life exists one one side and does not on the other. There is no DYING as such--just a passage from one state to the next. (headache setting in) > > The curtatious curse, I admit, is a difficult one. But couldn't it be used > to determin nerve damnage? Let's say someone cracked their neck or something, > or was cut deep. A Petrificus Totalus to keep them from moving, one split > second crucio, and then release them after a bit and ask them if it hurt > everywhere. Nerve damage = no pain. > If you argue the crutatious goes straight to your brain as it were you could > still use ti to check brain activity in someone in a coma, how they react to > it, for instance, they might even wake up for all we know. > This hardly bears thinking about! There are far less disgusting ways to determine this! Maybe you'll luck out if, in fact, the patient is not feeling any pain, but what if they are? Would you want this "test" perfomed on you? On your child? CRIPES! The muggle methods of doing this *now* are bad enough, but at least they're not full-body excrutiating agony! ***Ask them if it hurt?**** Melpomene, feeling slightly ill From mbush at lainc.com Thu Aug 28 13:51:23 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:51:23 -0000 Subject: Presenting: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79067 RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > > > Suspiciously > > Insane > > Longbottoms, the > > Key is the > > > > Gum > > Or > > Wrappers that > > Neville > > Saves. > > > > You know who you are, out there, you ran back to your other books > to find all > > previous references the Droobles (Best) Blowing Gum, noted the > Lucius Malfoy > > supports St. Mungo's, saw Bode's death as a sign that things *can* > be tampered > > with quite easily in St. Mungo's, and are sure there's a reason > Grandma > > Longbottom mentioned that Neville could paper his wall with the gum > wrappers he has > > from his mum. > > > > SILK GOWNS potentially has a lot of canon to support it, and I'm > going to try > > to gather every bit of it and would love contributions! > > "maneelyfh" FRAN wrote: > IMO, Lucious is behind it. They know something that he doesn't want > to come out possibly that he was there totruing the LOngbottoms but > got away. I think one reason Neville is so good at Herbology is that > he will come up with a cure for his parents. Lucious is in Azkaban now, does that mean his "funding" will cease? If he is behind it, and isn't around to continue it, then maybe (hopefully) we will see some improvement in the Longbottoms. (especially if his funding specifics are "secret" Narcissa may know he gives them money, but may not know why. How will she handle his affairs while he is in Azkaban?) I agree with Fran that I think Neville may be instrumental in either finding a cure for his parents or maybe recognizing or identifying a plant/ingredient that may be having some effect on their present state either positively or negatively. (residue on the gum wrappers maybe that he discovers by accident? He spills something else on it that would turn it another color perhaps, but it doesn't turn one that is "normal" or something and that makes him curious enough to investigate since he knows his mom had given him the one that turned... just a thought) Kind of like the negative drug interactions you get with some medicines. I had thought that Neville was possibly going to be the one to end up as the teacher at Hogwarts, but now I think he could go in for a healer. Thoughts? Mtwelovett From talisman22457 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 13:52:39 2003 From: talisman22457 at yahoo.com (Talisman) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:52:39 -0000 Subject: Time-Travel- why Harry *can* save himself In-Reply-To: <200308280103.50787.silmariel@telefonica.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79068 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Carolina wrote: I was instancing the characters, not the timeline. Multiple > timelines going wild gives me the chills, but in a sense yes, > because I concede there was a situation where HH hadn't travel back in time. [Steve/bboy wrote:] > < Dementor then he would not have the functional capability to send > himself back in time to save himself. >> > Carolina/silmariel replied: > That was the point of Talisman, that Snape was there pretending to > be unconscious, and he saved Harry the first time. I quote her: > "Understand that (#78370,) and you understand that someone else > saved Harry. Couple that with Snape's traditional "save Harry " > role, and the other points in messages #78215 and 78258, and you've got my view of it." > > There's a dementor & occlumency lesson that contains a interpretable Snape face, but I don't know the name of that thread. > Talisman, who had begun to fear she was unwittingly speaking Mermish, thanks Silmariel for her clear-headed support and assistance in this matter, and adds: The occlumency reference is in message # 78215 ". . .in Occlumency lessons, Harry has recurrent visions of the dementor scene form PoA.(OoP 534, 536, 591) JKR chooses this "dementor vision" as the final one for Harry's "resistance break-through" so that we see Snape's face layered with the dementors. (OoP 591) Ambiguous, yes. Just a coincidence. I think not." I do think it is significant that JKR repeats this memory three times during the lessons. She does not do this with any other memory. Moreover, in the third repetition, JKR shows us Snape mixed into the scene: "A hundred dementors were swooping toward Harry across the lake in the grounds . . . He screwed up his face in concentration . . . They were closer . . .He could see the dark holes beneath their hoods . . .yet he could also see Snape standing in front of him, his eyes fixed on Harry's face, muttering under his breath . . . And somehow, Snape was growing clearer, and the dementors were growing fainter . . .." (OoP 591) There are plenty of unpleasant memories from which JKR could draw, she doesn't need to repeat the dementor scene, but she does. This repetition is intentional. JKR could use any memory if the Snape scene is just a fade-in caused by Harry's resistance, but she doesn't. She chooses the intentionally repeated dementor scene. The wording is highly suggestive as well. We have Harry's face, the dementor's face, and Snape's face juxtaposed. Harry is screwing up his face, just as he would in his effort to stay conscious and fight the dementors. The Dementor's face is "closing in " for the kiss. And, Snape's face, is there keeping eye contact and muttering (which recalls the countercurse scene for SS where Snape saves Harry from Quirrell's jinx). In the PoA scene, Harry loses sight as the dementors close in and a "white fog" blinds him (PoA 384). Harry senses the dementors retreating, before he can open his eyes, and when he is able to open them, his vision is initially blurry (PoA 385). This sense of Harry's experience is invoked again when JKR says :"Snape was growing clearer, and the dementors were growing fainter . . ." (OoP 591) I'd say that whether Snape's face is at any point part of Harry's memory, whether it's totally a fade-in, or whether it's a little of both, it all makes an interesting--and intentional--connotational mix. If the phone keeps ringing, I might pick it up. Talisman, who is not even cranky anymore, because she got to use "kiss" and "Snape" in the same paragraph. From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 13:53:44 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:53:44 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Voldy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79069 loony asked: Finally I'm going to tackle the oft asked question `How did Tom Riddle get into Slytherin if he's a half blood?' Well it's easy enough; I've already stated that IMO in Slytherin blood is important. So therefore even though Tom Riddle was a half blood, that fact would be overridden by the fact that he is descended (or whatever) from S. Slytherin himself. And I have to agree. I think that the Sorting Hat recognized Tom for who he was (i.e. a decendant of Salazar) and went, "Oh, he belongs in Slytherin." Actually, I tend to think that the Sorting Hat knows more than it's letting on. The warning that it gives during the sorting makes it seem as though it realizes what's happening and even recognizes what it's own role in that might be. Regardless, however, I think that the hat realizes certain families (look at the Weasley's, and the comment the hat makes in the movie when sorting Ron... "Ah, a Weasley. I know just what to do with you!"). I think that in some cases the hat sees family lines as very important and in others (like the Patil sisters) it sees them as unimportant. And there's also the possibility that choices play a huge role in it as well. Dumbledore pointed out it was Harry's choice that put him in Gryffindor and it may have been Tom's choice that put him in Slytherin. While normally the hat would have said no way, you're not pureblood, I think in Tom's case it recognized Salazar's relation and said, well, for you I'll make an exception. Just some thoughts, Christy From melclaros at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 13:56:03 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:56:03 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79070 What I want to know is WHO are Mrs. Black's "fathers"? Grimmaud place, according to her, is not a house of Black through her husband's (Black) line, but through hers. She goes on ad nauseum about defiling the house of her fathers. Could *this* be the line off which Severus is a byblow? I hope he inherits the house. What a lovely bonfire! Melpomene who really, really thinks Severus just *has* to be related to Phineas. From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 13:59:04 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 13:59:04 -0000 Subject: Prophecy Contradiction In-Reply-To: <3F4D43F0.9030809@pacificpuma.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79071 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, jazmyn wrote: > > happyduck1979 wrote: > > Emma "punkstarz85" wrote: > > > The Prophecy states something along the line of Harry or Voldemort > > > must murder the other for the remaining to live. However unless I'm > > > forgetting something, in order to do so, they must duel. I can't > > > see either going silently or unwillingly, can you? > > > > > > I'm curious to see how J.K Rowling is going to work around this! > > Rachel: > > There is nothing to work around. Wizards do not need to duel to kill > > each other... one can sneak up behind the other or take him or her by > > surprise. More than this, wands battling in my mind means that > > both spells need to be cast at precisely the same moment. Thus they > > meet in midair and the effect takes place. There is also the > > possibility that one of the two might at some point need to use a > > wand not their own. >>> > > > Like Avatar and Black Wolf in the movie Wizards. Avatar pulled out a > gun and shot Black Wolf, when everyone thought they would duel it out > magically. What WOULD Voldemort do if Harry pulled out a gun and blew > his head off? A trigger can be pulled faster then one can say a spell... > > I think if JKR pulled that stunt in the books, Ralph Bakshi would sue > her and her fans would gang up on her and silly string her till she > resembles a rainbow haystack. > > If Volde falls off a cliff, then Disney might sue.. Last minute > 'conversion to good' would be too Darth Vader'ish. > > Its going to be near impossible to find a way to kill Voldemort off and > be original, you know... > > Jazmyn I think it will end up very similar to the first confrontation the two already had. We will see that actual battle between them, Harry will be beat and LV will be standing over him, and utter AK, the green energy will hit HP and then we will see what hurt LV in the beginning. HP will glow with some enternal force and destroy LV, but this time LV is completely mortal, and will die for good. Harry will be unconscious, and DD or Snape will pick him up and carry him off, as the boy who lived again. And I think Harry will be beat mentally, he will see one of his friends go down, maybe Ron, or Hermione, or Ginny, but they will not be dead, Harry will think that though. Just my thoughts. Severus From kai_z at operamail.com Thu Aug 28 14:14:03 2003 From: kai_z at operamail.com (mkaliz) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:14:03 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79072 Geoff said: > Dark magic is surely magic used for an evil end. Can you suggest > situations where the Cruciatus Curse, the Imperius Curse or the Avada > Kedavra Curses could be used to constructive ends? I believe they are > implicitly dark and evil and, hence, unforgiveable. I wonder...I can easily see the Imperius and Avada Kedavra curses being used in self-defense. Is that still considered unforgiveable? And certainly the Imperius curse could be used beneficially in several cases, for instance: 1) "forcing" a distraught/psychotic person to take medicine for his/her illness, 2) preventing a child/mentally disabled person from harming him/herself. If toddler is running into obvious danger (i.e. path of a speeding train), then forcing him/her to stop by using Imperius seems like a completely reasonable course of action to me! People in the medical profession might well think of some cases (determining the extent of paralysis perhaps?) where the Cruciatus curse might be useful. And yes, I'm aware that these are special cases, but I think that they demonstrate that the line between forgiveable and unforgiveable may be just a bit hazy. --kai From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Thu Aug 28 14:37:26 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:37:26 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79073 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" > wrote: (snip) >> > Ginger replies: > Hmm, the Rat himself! Kneasy also mentioned that Prof. Sinistra > might be. I was trying to remember, when writing my original post, > the Latin connection between "left-handed" and "sinister", but I > never got as far as thinking of Prof. Sinistra! > > Kneasy, can you help with the details on this? > Kneasy bounds to centre stage amid a shower of dandruff. Assumes pontifical mode. Yes. Based on JKRs love of puns and word play I'm willing to bet that Sinistre is a working of Sinister, latin for ' on the left hand'; it has other uses, all of which have a 'leftedness' of some sort. Could be accident prone - appearing on the left hand side denotes bad luck (probably why wedding rings are worn on the left hand and brides stand to the grooms left.) Only joking! Could be a raving radical, I suppose, but if she were Hermione would be gazing at her, starstruck, with adoration in her eyes. Kneasy From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Thu Aug 28 14:48:55 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:48:55 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79074 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "melclaros" wrote: > What I want to know is WHO are Mrs. Black's "fathers"? Grimmaud > place, according to her, is not a house of Black through her > husband's (Black) line, but through hers. She goes on ad nauseum > about defiling the house of her fathers. Could *this* be the line off > which Severus is a byblow? > I hope he inherits the house. What a lovely bonfire! > > > Melpomene who really, really thinks Severus just *has* to be related > to Phineas. Now me (Cindy): I absolutely had to reply to this post! I also think that Severus is related to Phineas! They are so alike - if you were only to hear there comments, without any other descriptive details - you would not be able to tell them apart! My theory about Severus is that - he is a pureblood. Firstly - he called Lily a "filthy mudblood", and that reminds me of how Draco (pureblood) called Hermione a "filthy little mudblood". He is also the HEAD of Slytherin house - and good friends with Lucius Malfoy. This is obvious because he calls Draco by his first name, he hung around Lucius in school - and he is still friends with Lucius (remember Sirius Blacks' 'lapdog' comment). If all pureblood families are interrelated, it is very possible that Severus is somehow related to the Malfoy's. I really believe that Severus and Phineas are closely related. They look the same, behave the same and use the exact same language and words, phrases and tones. I have concocted a small theory about Severus's family life, and believe that his parents were poor because his father believed that being a pureblood wizard was enough - that working was something for half-bloods and house-elves. So his father, Severus and his mother lived off their old family heirlooms. That would explain why his mother was always arguing with his father, and also why Severus is such a serious perfectionist, because he does not want to be like his father. I also think that it is very possible that the man with sallow-skin in St Mungo's could be Severus's father, and that Severus might have even caused the irreversible spell damage - perhaps whilst protecting him self, or his mother. -Cindy all Severus fans visit http://www.designerpotions.com/ss From annemehr at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 14:59:39 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:59:39 -0000 Subject: Snape's memory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79075 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ewdotson" wrote: > "'I'm bored," said Sirius. "Wish it was full moon." > 'You might,' said Lupin darkly from behind his book. 'We've still got > Transfiguration, if your're bored you could test me...'" (US > hardcover, pg 645) > > "You might" what? It's an oddly constructed sentance. Lupin doesn't > say, "You might help me if you're bored." Well, just for the sake of your peace of mind, I think I can help with what "You might" means, though it has no effect on your theory one way or the other. :) Sirius wishes it was the full moon, and Lupin says, "/You/ might," (emphasis mine) as in: "/You/ might wish it was full moon, but /I'm/ perfectly happy that it isn't, thanks." Sirius was just being tactless, and Lupin was just giving him a nudge toward reality. Annemehr From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 15:07:02 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:07:02 -0000 Subject: Presenting: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79076 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mtwelovett" wrote: > RSFJenny19 at a... wrote: > > > > > > > Suspiciously > > > Insane > > > Longbottoms, the > > > Key is the > > > > > > Gum > > > Or > > > Wrappers that > > > Neville > > > Saves. > > > > > > You know who you are, out there, you ran back to your other books > > to find all > > > previous references the Droobles (Best) Blowing Gum, noted the > > Lucius Malfoy > > > supports St. Mungo's, saw Bode's death as a sign that things *can* > > be tampered > > > with quite easily in St. Mungo's, and are sure there's a reason > > Grandma > > > Longbottom mentioned that Neville could paper his wall with the gum > > wrappers he has > > > from his mum. > > > > > > SILK GOWNS potentially has a lot of canon to support it, and I'm > > going to try > > > to gather every bit of it and would love contributions! > > > > "maneelyfh" FRAN wrote: > > > IMO, Lucious is behind it. They know something that he doesn't want > > to come out possibly that he was there totruing the LOngbottoms but > > got away. I think one reason Neville is so good at Herbology is that > > he will come up with a cure for his parents. > > > Lucious is in Azkaban now, does that mean his "funding" will cease? If > he is behind it, and isn't around to continue it, then maybe > (hopefully) we will see some improvement in the Longbottoms. > (especially if his funding specifics are "secret" Narcissa may know he > gives them money, but may not know why. How will she handle his > affairs while he is in Azkaban?) I agree with Fran that I think > Neville may be instrumental in either finding a cure for his parents > or maybe recognizing or identifying a plant/ingredient that may be > having some effect on their present state either positively or > negatively. (residue on the gum wrappers maybe that he discovers by > accident? He spills something else on it that would turn it another > color perhaps, but it doesn't turn one that is "normal" or something > and that makes him curious enough to investigate since he knows his > mom had given him the one that turned... just a thought) Kind of like > the negative drug interactions you get with some medicines. I had > thought that Neville was possibly going to be the one to end up as the > teacher at Hogwarts, but now I think he could go in for a healer. > Thoughts? > > Mtwelovett I have another thought on Lucious's envolvement in keeping the Longbottoms in their addled state. Lucious was repsonsible for Bode being in the Insane Ward, and I would sumise Bode's death. I think it as a nice touch that he included the Hippogriff calender with the Devil's Snare! :o) I wonder if the Hippogriff calender is a clue to something since their has been one around since POA. Fran From shokoono at gmx.de Wed Aug 27 12:08:38 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 14:08:38 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? References: Message-ID: <000201c36d77$09ea9450$13f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 79077 >Naama : > I disagree completely. If Pettigrew knew about Snape, so would > Sirius. Sirius didn't even know Snape was a DE to begin with, so how > could he know about Snape spying after LV? And Snape wasn't in the > picture Mad-Eye showed Harry - if he was, Harry would have recognised > him for sure. > > More likely, Dumbledore kept the information about Snape to himself, > both out of respect for Snape (can't see how he would like his > Hogwarts enemies to know) and because he suspected a member of the > order had double-crossed him, and if LV knew he would have killed > Snape long long ago. > Me: That sounds reasonable to me. If Snape had been spying for DD nobody should know for reasons you already said. But further on he couldn't say who was the one that was the traitor within the Order for (as Karkaroff says in the pesive scene in GoF) LV is makes sure not all the DE know each other by the name (and also by the sight at each other for they're wearing stuff that look so much like a special clan to me...). That could explain why Snape could only tell DD that there is a spy within the own rows.... Yours Finchen From urghiggi at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 15:20:16 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:20:16 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79078 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" < mkeller01 at a...> wrote: > This is the best theory I've heard yet. It makes a great deal of > sense. The only small thing I can add to this is that perhaps Harry > doesn't really have to die. I've been throwing this out for a while > now, but I just can't help think that it will play a key role at the > end of this series, and it may fit here: "..... a sleeping potion so > powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." (chapter 8, > PS/SS.) Snape brings it up in Harry's first potion lesson. Could > they "trick" that portion of Voldemort's mind into leaving Harry? > Toad (who just can't see JKR really killing off Harry) I don't know how she's going to accomplish what she has to accomplish with this big ending. What I do think I know, from the clues she has laid down throught the 1st 5 books -- not the tricky "fact" clues, but the moral/emotional ones -- is this: 1. LV must be defeated, with finality. He either has to die, or be redeemed. But he has to go. At the end of the series, there can be no possibility that he's going to rise to hex another day. 2. HP must be the source of LV's defeat. This can happen in some incredibly tricky and convoluted way, but in some manner HP's actions must result in LV's defeat. This does not rule out the participation of others, from Neville to Snape to Pettigrew. Remember, in LOTR -- Gollum got rid of the ring, but he was only there to do it because Frodo had spared his life previously, and then had stayed the course and carried the thing all the way to Mt. Doom. In some way, LV's defeat has to be the result of HP's choices/actions. 3. HP may or may not die, but if he dies, his death has to be an emotionally triumphant one -- a death that's perceived to be "worth it all" in some way. That's about the sum total of what I think I know at this point, based on where JKR seems to be going. As much as we adults like to stand on our heads, trying out our theories, she's clearly striving to write some kind of "edifying" children's fiction -- stuff that will inspire the reader to live a better life. Yes, she is; don't laugh. To wit, the following key messages: 1. Your choices, not your bloodlines, are what truly define you. 2. Prejudice is bad, tolerance is good. 3. Love is more powerful than evil. 4. Loyalty to your friends and your ideals is important. 5. Even death cannot take away your loved ones from you. (They live on, both inside you and as individuals in a dimension you cannot penetrate while you live.) This is pretty simplistic stuff -- and yet I think these kinds of messages play a big role in the emotional resonance of the books, and their ability to inspire a passionate following. Because she is obviously doing this edification stuff, it seems clear to me that, no matter what wild plot twists occur at the end, the following MUST be true: 1. Harry's struggles and journey must be seen as significant and productive. (No "it was all a dream" cheating solutions at the end.) 2. Harry has to win. He doesn't have to LIVE, but he has to win. If he dies, his death can't be seen to be dumb, arbitrary, accidental, trivial, or anything but triumphant, and absolutely necessary for the greater good. 3. Evil cannot win, in the end. Ergo LV cannot win, in the end. If all the above does not turn out to be true of any solution she creates, then she will have constructed the biggest, most elaborate cheat in the history of children's fiction. What she'll do plot-wise to make it all work is a tantalizing mystery, but her emotional territory is a pretty consistent place so far. If she gives the lie to all that with her future work .... Well, no point in saying "if she does." I'd bet every galleon, knut & sickle in Gringotts that she won't. urghiggi, Chgo From lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 15:21:47 2003 From: lupinwolf2001 at yahoo.com (lupinwolf2001) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:21:47 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79079 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lupinwolf2001" > wrote: > > I applaud the effort. > > > > However, the problem I have with this is in the battle near the > > fountain of the MOM why wouldn't have DD have allowed LV to kill > > Harry (thus making him mortal) and THEN finish LV before he knew > what > > hit him? > > > > Game set match. > > > > However... that didn't happen which leads me to beleive that the > > answer isn't necessairly in your explaination. > > > A good point. It seems clear at least that Dumbledore felt the > circumstances in the MoM weren't quite right. > > If Harry has to kill Voldemort this certainly makes more sense. Harry > may have to learn some skill or spell to be able to kill Voldemort, > or his friends may have to somehow influence the fight. > > If Harry has to die however, it could be that the part of Voldemort > inside of him isn't ready yet. I hate to get all fluffy-cutesy- > carebear on you, but perhaps Harry first has to experience real > passionate romantic love for all this to work. Perhaps Harry has to > learn more about his mother and father and the love they had for him. > Perhaps Harry first has to realize just how much he is loved by the > people around him. Or perhaps Wormtail first has to give his life to > save Harry for Voldemort to fully realize the power of love. > > I'm sure that Voldemort wouldn't just change because he finally feels > love, there will probably have to be a fierce psychological battle > before Voldemort becomes human again. The part of Voldemort inside of > Harry may simply not be ready for this. And why hasn't Dumbledore > been constantly training Harry in dueling techniques if he knew Harry Makes sense to me. In fact the "cutsy" love concept may very well be what drives the last bit of Voldemort FROM harry. Heck, maybe the part of Voldemort that is in Harry is the VERY THING that keeps him "alive" in the first place! So when love is so intense that it drives the last of Voldemort from Harry there is no longer a small part of voldemort remaining outside of his physical body. When the physical body dies... so too must Tom Riddle becucase no piece of him remains. As you noted, Harry isn't to that point yet. Part of love inevitably is felt in loss. But true sacrificing love we have not seen yet. From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 15:41:58 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:41:58 -0000 Subject: Time Travel In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.20030827185952.00b2bbe8@pop.uky.edu> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79080 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Stacy Forsythe wrote: >The events as they stand are internally > consistent -- there's a second Harry present at 9PM to cast a patronus, > thus the younger Harry survives the dementor attack and is able to use the > time turner later to become that second Harry. There's no need to bring in > another set of events that was overwritten. I agree with Stacy. The reason there is a problem with the whole "someone else saved Harry the first time" theory is that the person who saved Harry the fist time need a reason to not act the second time. The reason Dumbledore tells them to be careful and remain hidden is that to not do so would create a paradox - *older* Harry was not seen by *younger* Harry, therefore *Older Harry cannot then put himself in a position to be seen - I would even argue that if *older* Harry tried to make himself seen, something would prevent that from happening. *Younger* Harry's actions were predicated on him not knowing about events that were happening at the same time - his experience of those 3 hours were vague enough that he could go back and "change" what he believes happened. In reality, he is simply playing 2 roles at the same time. He is able to do what he does as *older* Harry because it already happened in the regular timeline. He has a personal timeline where it has also already happened - he just doesn't know it has happened. I'm beginning to wonder if a timeturner played a role in events the night Harry's parents died. Hagrid was around in the morning, and told McGonnagle that Dumbledore would be at Privet Drive. He didn't seem to have Harry at that point - maybe he was about to head back to retrieve Harry. This might explain how Hagrid knew where to find him; I don't think there had been enough time for so many people to have known the hiding place that early. He couldn't arrive before the attack because they already knew about it. Perhaps they didn't know where Harry was (and though LV or someone else might have taken him) but knew he would be there right after the attack - perhaps the other person some people think was there (whose voice was heard by Harry) observed Sirius arrive, and Hagrid leave with Harry on the motorcycle. Melinda From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 28 15:56:24 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:56:24 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus and Electricity (Was: Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79081 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote: > Myself (James): > > This has always annoyed me. (along with the fact Gringots changes > muggle money to wizarding money, and any half decent wizard could > transfigure stuff into muggle money - and even if they had a 'has been > transfigured' checker the wizard could just buy some gum and get > change...hufff). > > Harry hides under his bedclothes trying not to spill his bottle of ink > and not to scratch his quill so it sprays. > > Get a biro. > > They wear jeans and jumpers and the like - but is a simple biro beyond > them. > > Fine enchant the exam quills so you can't cheat but use a biro for > homework - surely. > > Ok I accept that harry likes the WW and wants to use its artefacts but > when he is in risk of serious trouble if he spills ink then a > biro/ballpoint/pencil/fountain-pen would be safer. > > Will calm down now > > James now Susan: First off forgive my being thick but what is a "biro" ? Secondly, Hagrid explained in SS/PS that the wizards do not let Muggles know of them because they would want them to fix all their "problems" with magic. The way I understand it, Wizards work very hard not to "contaminate" the Muggle world. Susan From shokoono at gmx.de Thu Aug 28 16:01:49 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:01:49 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Invisible minorities References: Message-ID: <003f01c36d80$129b1260$13f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 79082 Kneasy: > Yes. Based on JKRs love of puns and word play I'm willing > to bet that Sinistre is a working of Sinister, latin for ' on the > left hand'; it has other uses, all of which have a 'leftedness' of some > sort. Could be accident prone - appearing on the left hand side > denotes bad luck (probably why wedding rings are worn on the > left hand and brides stand to the grooms left.) Only joking! > Could be a raving radical, I suppose, but if she were > Hermione would be gazing at her, starstruck, with adoration > in her eyes. > Me: I wonder if it is relevant if there is a left handed person. I am a lefty myself and except for pens I can manage living without any problems. So what should it be important for? You can also ask Why Cho is an asiatic girl or why Lee is afro... Yours Finchen From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Thu Aug 28 16:16:52 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:16:52 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79083 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > My theory about Severus is that - > he is a pureblood. Firstly - he called Lily a "filthy mudblood", and > that reminds me of how Draco (pureblood) called Hermione a "filthy > little mudblood". Exactly. He wouldn't risk an insult that could so easily be turned right back against him. > If all pureblood families are interrelated, it is very possible that > Severus is somehow related to the Malfoy's. I really believe that > Severus and Phineas are closely related. They look the same, behave > the same and use the exact same language and words, phrases and tones. What a great idea! I knew there was some other reason why I liked Phineas so much, along with his resolute refusal to be impressed by poor, tragic Harry Potter. > > I have concocted a small theory about Severus's family life, and > believe that his parents were poor because his father believed that > being a pureblood wizard was enough - that working was something for > half-bloods and house-elves. So his father, Severus and his mother > lived off their old family heirlooms. That would explain why his > mother was always arguing with his father, and also why Severus is > such a serious perfectionist, because he does not want to be like his > father. > I tend to think that the arguing was likely to be about money, as well. Studies have shown that it's one of the biggest causes of arguments between married people. Also, it just seems unlikely that EVERYTHING in the WW hangs on bloodlines and race. Poor people, as the Snapes appeared to be, have a lot more immediate things to argue about than who is descended from whom. I was thinking that Ma Snape might have blown tenpence on a bunch of flowers to brighten up the place, and Pa Snape was mad because he wanted the money to go down to the pub and get drunk! Enough to make any poor little kid cry. Wanda From shokoono at gmx.de Thu Aug 28 16:15:48 2003 From: shokoono at gmx.de (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Carolin_M=F6nkemeyer?=) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:15:48 +0200 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Re:_=5BHPforGrownups=5D_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?tree.?= References: Message-ID: <004001c36d80$1341b2a0$13f3a986@caro> No: HPFGUIDX 79084 evangelina: The events: Here's how I think it all happened. About 15 or 16 years old, the Malfoy si= ster accidentally gets pregnant with a muggle/squib. Her parents go ballistic an= d blasts her off the Malfoy family tree, if there ever was one. Their daughter is ki= cked out of home and marries her Mr Snape. Some time after that wedding, the Malfoy sis= ter confesses that she is a witch. And just like the elder Tom Riddle, Mr Snape= is not happy. But he has married the woman and sees no way out. He gets bitter and= abusive. A simplified description - feel free to fill in the blanks. Me: Sounds all as weired as anything else on this subject, so it could be (somehow) be possible if there wasn't the fact that his mother is a wich and could therefore defend herself and stop her husband behaving like that. Usually women who can not defend themselves because of being too weak are in a situation that is described in this scene. So I doubt her being the magical relative of Snape's. Yours Finchen From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 16:39:38 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:39:38 -0000 Subject: Another LV Blunder - was Fudge is a DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79085 Jim Ferer (me):"There was never a need to stage the Azkaban breakouts. With the Dementors on his side, Voldemort should have continued to operate Azkaban as his base. So, if a DE is captured and brought to Azkaban, the Dementors are waiting to lead him away. If that moron Fudge shows up for an inspection tour, he finds the Lestranges in their cells ? and nobody is the wiser." Dave:" I think this depends on whether the DEs need to get away from Azkaban to recover, and the related question of the extent of the Dementors' allegience to Voldemort.. If Voldemort wants an active, healthy, force, it probably means in practice that a breakout is necessary." That's a fair point, and if I'm wrong that the breakout was a blunder, that's the reason. I have to think that Voldemort could have found a way out of that problem even if the Dementors were not wholly on his side yet. (I bet they were cooperating at least somewhat). They could have had victims ? Polyjuiced Muggles, perhaps, or people on Fudge's "list" ? in the cells. If there's an apparition barrier at Hogwarts, there surely is one at Azkaban. It would have been worth a lot of effort to take over the island, because the advantages of Azkaban as a hidden-in-plain-sight base would be enormous. Voldemort's big problem is that Harry and Dumbledore have a strong, secure base, Hogwarts, while Voldemort has none. He probably has safe houses, such as the Riddle House (probably blown now after the graveyard scene), but no real headquarters. As long as the good guys have Hogwarts, which I'm sure is recognized now as the center of the war against Voldemort, Voldemort is at a serious disadvantage. The whole MoM affair was a disaster for Voldemort. It's a long way from over, but the DE's have to notice how their boss keeps losing out to the kid and the codger. Jim Ferer From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 28 16:45:56 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 16:45:56 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79086 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" > wrote: > > My theory about Severus is that - > > he is a pureblood. Firstly - he called Lily a "filthy mudblood", > and > > that reminds me of how Draco (pureblood) called Hermione a "filthy > > little mudblood". > > Exactly. He wouldn't risk an insult that could so easily be turned > right back against him. > > > > If all pureblood families are interrelated, it is very possible > that > > Severus is somehow related to the Malfoy's. I really believe that > > Severus and Phineas are closely related. They look the same, > behave > > the same and use the exact same language and words, phrases and > tones. > > What a great idea! I knew there was some other reason why I liked > Phineas so much, along with his resolute refusal to be impressed by > poor, tragic Harry Potter. > > > > I have concocted a small theory about Severus's family life, and > > believe that his parents were poor because his father believed > that > > being a pureblood wizard was enough - that working was something > for > > half-bloods and house-elves. So his father, Severus and his mother > > lived off their old family heirlooms. That would explain why his > > mother was always arguing with his father, and also why Severus is > > such a serious perfectionist, because he does not want to be like > his > > father. > > > I tend to think that the arguing was likely to be about money, as > well. Studies have shown that it's one of the biggest causes of > arguments between married people. Also, it just seems unlikely that > EVERYTHING in the WW hangs on bloodlines and race. Poor people, as > the Snapes appeared to be, have a lot more immediate things to argue > about than who is descended from whom. I was thinking that Ma Snape > might have blown tenpence on a bunch of flowers to brighten up the > place, and Pa Snape was mad because he wanted the money to go down > to the pub and get drunk! Enough to make any poor little kid cry. > > Wanda I like these theories a lot however a thought popped into my head. Harry saw a small boy crying....what if....Ol man Snape was a mudblood and the fight was because Severus had just gotten his owl to go to Hogwarts? Maybe Ol man Snape didn't know he married a witch. This type of violent reaction from his father would also make him hate mudbloods. Its not like JK hasn't used this type of situation before with Seamus (I beleive?). The fact that Harry saw Severus as a "small" boy...well....they have now grown enough that they are all surprised at how tiny the first years are and don't remember being that small when they started. Just my rambling thoughts. Susan From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 28 17:03:27 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (S Handel) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:03:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79087 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" > wrote: > > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" > > wrote: > > > My theory about Severus is that - > > > he is a pureblood. Firstly - he called Lily a "filthy mudblood", > > and > > > that reminds me of how Draco (pureblood) called Hermione > a "filthy > > > little mudblood". > > > > Exactly. He wouldn't risk an insult that could so easily be turned > > right back against him. > > > > > > > If all pureblood families are interrelated, it is very possible > > that > > > Severus is somehow related to the Malfoy's. I really believe that > > > Severus and Phineas are closely related. They look the same, > > behave > > > the same and use the exact same language and words, phrases and > > tones. > > > > What a great idea! I knew there was some other reason why I liked > > Phineas so much, along with his resolute refusal to be impressed by > > poor, tragic Harry Potter. > > > > > > I have concocted a small theory about Severus's family life, and > > > believe that his parents were poor because his father believed > > that > > > being a pureblood wizard was enough - that working was something > > for > > > half-bloods and house-elves. So his father, Severus and his > mother > > > lived off their old family heirlooms. That would explain why his > > > mother was always arguing with his father, and also why Severus > is > > > such a serious perfectionist, because he does not want to be like > > his > > > father. > > > > > I tend to think that the arguing was likely to be about money, as > > well. Studies have shown that it's one of the biggest causes of > > arguments between married people. Also, it just seems unlikely > that > > EVERYTHING in the WW hangs on bloodlines and race. Poor people, as > > the Snapes appeared to be, have a lot more immediate things to > argue > > about than who is descended from whom. I was thinking that Ma > Snape > > might have blown tenpence on a bunch of flowers to brighten up the > > place, and Pa Snape was mad because he wanted the money to go down > > to the pub and get drunk! Enough to make any poor little kid cry. > > > > Wanda > > I like these theories a lot however a thought popped into my head. > Harry saw a small boy crying....what if....Ol man Snape was a > mudblood and the fight was because Severus had just gotten his owl to > go to Hogwarts? Maybe Ol man Snape didn't know he married a witch. > This type of violent reaction from his father would also make him > hate mudbloods. Its not like JK hasn't used this type of situation > before with Seamus (I beleive?). The fact that Harry saw Severus as > a "small" boy...well....they have now grown enough that they are all > surprised at how tiny the first years are and don't remember being > that small when they started. Just my rambling thoughts. > Susan Me again editing...rather then mudblood, I meant to say Muggle. Sorry. Susan From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 28 17:20:11 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:20:11 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus and Electricity (Was: Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79088 > > James wrote: > Ok I accept that harry likes the WW and wants to use its artefacts > butwhen he is in risk of serious trouble if he spills ink then a > biro/ballpoint/pencil/fountain-pen would be safer. > Unless, of course, Hogwarts school rules don't *allow* Harry to write school essays with anything other than a quill. Entirely possible. You can tell the difference between quill written and fountain pen written. Biro (ball point pen) is even easier to spot. If the Wizarding World uses quills and looks down on those muggle born who know what a biro is and how to use it, they might insist on 'quill-written essays'. That way, they know their students have learnt to use a quill properly. One of my schools did something similar. After a certain point, pencil was not allowed (learn to use ink). After a higher point, anything other than a black or blue ink pen was not allowed (learn to use fountain pen). The only place you could use biro's were mock exams/exams, where speed was essential. They weren't being stupid, just making sure that we could write with the 'upper class' fountain pen if we needed to. Hogwarts might have a 'quill' rule for similar reasons - so their muggle born students don't give themselves away to the nearest DE whenever they pick up a pen ;-) Pip!Squeak From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Thu Aug 28 17:24:50 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:24:50 -0000 Subject: Where Snape belongs on the family tree. In-Reply-To: <004001c36d80$1341b2a0$13f3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79089 > evangelina: > > About 15 or 16 years old, the Malfoy sister accidentally gets > pregnant with a muggle/squib. Her parents go ballistic and blasts > her off the Malfoy family tree, if there ever was one. Their > daughter is kicked out of home and marries her Mr Snape. Some time > after that wedding, the Malfoy sister confesses that she is a > witch. And just like the elder Tom Riddle, Mr Snape is not > happy. > > Finchen: > > Sounds all as weired as anything else on this subject, so it could > be (somehow) be possible if there wasn't the fact that his mother > is a wich and could therefore defend herself and stop her husband > behaving like that. > Usually women who can not defend themselves because of being too > weak are in a situation that is described in this scene. So I doubt > her being the magical relative of Snape's. > Cindy: My theory about Severus is that - he is a pureblood. Firstly - he called Lily a "filthy mudblood", and that reminds me of how Draco (pureblood) called Hermione a "filthy little mudblood". He is also the HEAD of Slytherin house - and good friends with Lucius Malfoy. Me (Marika): I love all the theories above, so please let me stir the stew and add a few spices. Severus's mother came from a snobbish pureblood family - possibly the Malfoys. "Unfortunately" she was a squib, meaning the family was ashamed of her. When Mr. Snape started to show some (sexual) interest in her, her family encouraged this relationship - he was a pureblood after all. Maybe her parents even offered to support them financially if they got married, at least to start with. Mr "lazy and fond of alcohol" Snape thought that this offer was just too good to turn down, and married a woman he neither loved nor respected. Since her self-esteem was bad to start with, she didn't dare to leave him, not even to make life better for her son. This means that Severus is technically a pureblood, which makes him: * accepted among people like the Malfoys * suitable for the job as head of Slytherin house * "free" to use the term "mudblood" (even though you would think he wouldn't since it might have been the same type of "racism" his mother was a victim of). Marika :-) From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 17:43:15 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 17:43:15 -0000 Subject: Knight Bus, Electricity & BallPoint Pens In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79090 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James" wrote: > Freddie: > >>> > ...[the ww]co-opt certain Muggle inventions that do things better/faster/easier than magic can, but otherwise, why would they *want* do do things the Muggle way? Note that they have a bus, but still write with quills on parchment. < <<< < > > James: > > This ... annoyed me. (along with ... Gringots changes muggle money > to wizarding money,...). > > Harry hides under his bedclothes trying not to spill ... ink .... > > They wear jeans and jumpers ... - but is a simple biro (ball pen) > beyond them? > > Fine enchant the exam quills ... but use a biro for homework - > surely. > > ... harry likes the WW and wants to use its artefacts > but .. he ... risk(s)... serious trouble if he spills ink then a > biro/ballpoint/pencil/fountain-pen would be safer. > > Will calm down now > > James bboy_mn: The way I've always resolved the 'Pen' issue to myself, is to say that feather pens write in a distinctive bold (as in wide, not as in daring) style, and the teachers expect to see home work in these easy to read bold lines of ink. A standard ball pen or even common fountain pen writes a very narrow line of ink which many teachers, having read bold lines of ink their whole lives, would find a strain to read. So they demand the wide easy to read lines that feather pens produce. If I was a student at Hogwarts, I think I would try to sneak in a large supply of 'Sharpies' (pen size magic markers or felt-tipped pens). If I doubted that would work, I might consider felt-tipped calligraphy pens, although they are quite expensive relative to common felt-tip pens. Another alternative would be metal-tipped calligraphy quills (metal tip on a wooden stick) or calligraphic fountain pens (also quite expensive). I don't know if you have ever tried to write with a feather, but it is a miserable messy writing experience, and the tips wear down after only minutes of writing, so you have to keep resharpening them. According to my research when quills were in common use, even the best of quills seldom lasted more that a week. So, if I was at Howarts, I certainly would try every way possible to get out of using common quills. Perhaps as a last desparate attempt to make things easier, I would spend the extra money and get an everlasting, never needs ink and never wears out, enchanted quill. So, the short verions answer is they use quills because the teacher expect homework to be written by quill. The second slightly longer answer is that JKR merges the magic world and the muggle world with objects and images that we find familiar. Even descriptions of people draw on familiar icons, like witches always have big noses, wizards dress in robes, etc... So I think the quill are just familiar icons that give us the feel that Hogwarts is uniquely wizardly, but in a most familiar way. Just a thought. bboy_mn From EnsTren at aol.com Thu Aug 28 18:16:16 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:16:16 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Quills and Writing (Was: Knight Bus and Electricity) Message-ID: <39.3d1e73c7.2c7fa0f0@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79091 In a message dated 8/28/2003 1:27:27 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk writes: > Unless, of course, Hogwarts school rules don't *allow* Harry to > write school essays with anything other than a quill. > > Entirely possible. You can tell the difference between quill written > and fountain pen written. Biro (ball point pen) is even easier to > spot. If the Wizarding World uses quills and looks down on those > muggle born who know what a biro is and how to use it, they might > insist on 'quill-written essays'. That way, they know their students > have learnt to use a quill properly. > > One of my schools did something similar. After a certain point, > pencil was not allowed (learn to use ink). After a higher point, > anything other than a black or blue ink pen was not allowed (learn > to use fountain pen). The only place you could use biro's were mock > exams/exams, where speed was essential. > > They weren't being stupid, just making sure that we could write with > the 'upper class' fountain pen if we needed to. Hogwarts might have > a 'quill' rule for similar reasons - so their muggle born students > don't give themselves away to the nearest DE whenever they pick up a > pen ;-) > > Pip!Squeak > That's a very intresting point you brought up. My own school only went up to the "Black or blue" stage, never to the fountain pen. I have used it though, and taught myself the basics of using an old fashion fountain pen/nub like they use with quills. I do caligraphy sometimes. Intresting thought, would they also insist on caligraphy like writing? Not the extreamly fancy stuff, but rather certain strokes and the way of holding the quill? I think it's most likely I think, as I found when using the nubs (the writing bit of a quill) it was easier to do caligraphy strokes and hold the thing a certain way. For those of you who don't know, and as near as I can tell, a nub works on the same principal as pouring water nearly side ways down a wet string, or letting water slid down your arm and drip off your fingers, cohesive and adhesive molocules in the ink. The circle and the line, which is most likely a trademark some where, is actually a "fork." The little circle thing gathers the ink and then channles it down the split. If you press too hard the tines open up and you get a split line or a mess. Turning and tilting the thing diffrent ways makes this harder and easier to avoid. However, the only nubs I used were nonenchanted and top loaded, that is to say I took a pain brush and manually loaded the ink into the well. So the physics I know of old fashion writing might not apply to something that is "dunked." However, that doesn't mean harry simpply can strip the barbs off the feather cut it short, and load it into a faux pen. I've seen them in art stores with a collection of nubs. Basically you take the thing, which looks rather like a normal pen, and pop in and out the nub you want. Nemi, babbling --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From watsola79 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 18:18:09 2003 From: watsola79 at yahoo.com (watsola79) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:18:09 -0000 Subject: Another LV Blunder - was Fudge is a DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79092 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > That's a fair point, and if I'm wrong that the breakout was a blunder, > that's the reason. I have to think that Voldemort could have found a > way out of that problem even if the Dementors were not wholly on his > side yet. (I bet they were cooperating at least somewhat). They could > have had victims ? Polyjuiced Muggles, perhaps, or people on Fudge's > "list" ? in the cells. If there's an apparition barrier at Hogwarts, > there surely is one at Azkaban. It would have been worth a lot of > effort to take over the island, because the advantages of Azkaban as a > hidden-in-plain-sight base would be enormous. > I seem to recall reading at some point that prisoners couldn't Apparate out of Azkaban because they were deprived of their wands when they arrived. - Lana Lovegood From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Aug 28 18:40:01 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:40:01 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Black's House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79093 I think Mrs. Black must be a Black by birth as well as by marriage. The probability is that she married a cousin, which is likely quite common among pure-blood families. This would enable her to talk proprietorially about the Noble House of Black if she actually was born into it, rather than married into it. Sylvia (prepared to be proved completely wrong) From severusbook4 at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 18:59:41 2003 From: severusbook4 at yahoo.com (severusbook4) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:59:41 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Black's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79094 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > I think Mrs. Black must be a Black by birth as well as by marriage. > The probability is that she married a cousin, which is likely quite > common among pure-blood families. This would enable her to talk > proprietorially about the Noble House of Black if she actually was > born into it, rather than married into it. > Sylvia (prepared to be proved completely wrong) That probability is pretty high, I'd say. Have you read any Anne Rice? The Mayfair Witches were notorious for this, and prefered to keep the leniage in the family, so to speak. So it would not be a stretch for a family bent on remaining the purest of pure bloods to marry with in their own bloodlines. Severus From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 19:07:32 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:07:32 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79095 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > **angelberri56** > > >This is really random, and probably has nothing to do with Harry, > >but I just thought I might put it out there.... > > > >I was reading a post about Lily's eyes, and a thought just popped > >into my head. In "The Secret Garden", which is a musical, and > >also a book, there's a song called "Lily's Eyes"... It goes > >something like... > > >Anyway... it's talking about two characters- Colin and Lily. The > >song is about how Colin has his (dead) mother's eyes. > > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > > It's really weird you should mention this, I posted the same thought > on Sunday in message #78672. But the song's not about Colin, it's > about Mary. It's when Neville Craven reveals he was also in love > with his brother Archibald's wife, Lily loved Archibald even though > Neville could not understand why, and how Mary has Lily's eyes. > > I'm working on a FILK :-) (assuming I can find a sound clip to post) > > > ~Margaret > who reverses Harry's characteristics and looks just like her mother, > but with her father's eyes :-) Mlle: Here are the lyrics, if it might help in coming up with some theories... interesting that Mary and Harry rhyme and all...then there's the fact that there's a colin and Neville....lol...well anyway... Artist: Lyrics Song: Lily's Eyes Lyrics [NEVILLE] Strangely quiet, but now the storm Simply rests to strike again Standing, waiting, I think of her I think of her [ARCHIBALD] Strange, this Mary, she leaves the room Yet remains, she lingers on Something stirs me to think of her I think of her [NEVILLE] >From death she casts her spell All night we hear her sighs And now a girl has come Who has her eyes She has her eyes The girl has Lily's hazel eyes Those eyes that saw him happy long ago Those eyes that gave him life And hope he'd never known How can he see the girl And miss those hazel eyes [ARCHIBALD] She has her eyes The girl has Lily's hazel eyes Those eyes that closed and left me all alone Those eyes I feel will never ever let me go How can I see this girl who has her hazel eyes In Lily's eyes a castle This house seemed to be And I, her bravest knight became My lady fair was she [NEVILLE] She has her eyes She has my Lily's hazel eyes Those eyes that loved my brother- never me Those eyes that never saw me Never knew I longed To hold her close To live at last in Lily's Eyes [ARCHIBALD] Imagine me, a lover [NEVILLE] I longed for the day She'd turn and see me standing there [ARCHIBALD AND NEVILLE] Would God had let her stay [NEVILLE] She has her eyes She has Lily's hazel eyes Those eyes that first I loved so How can I now forget That once I dared To be alive and whole In Lily's eyes In Lily's eyes [ARCHIBALD] She has her eyes My Lily's hazel eyes Those eyes that saw me Happy long ago How can I now forget That once I dares to be in love Alive and whole In Lily's eyes In Lily's eyes From sylviablundell at aol.com Thu Aug 28 19:09:12 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:09:12 -0000 Subject: Re. Mrs. Black's House Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79096 Or she could be like the witch Nanny Ogg in Terry Pratchett's Discworld books, who has been married several times, but retains the name of Ogg, since the magic passes through the female line. From jferer at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 19:14:23 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:14:23 -0000 Subject: Another LV Blunder - was Fudge is a DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79097 Lana:"I seem to recall reading at some point that prisoners couldn't Apparate out of Azkaban because they were deprived of their wands when they arrived." You still need anti-Apparition magic for the grounds in order to keep your cousin Louie from apparating into the grouonds to spring you, or sending you a wand in a birthday cake or something. Do youo need a wand to Apparate? I'm sure prisoners are deprived of their wands when they're first arrested. Jim From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Thu Aug 28 19:54:27 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:54:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79098 Lilian, your theory makes so much more sense than mine that I still feel nu= ts for constructing mine the way I did. ;) But now, with some feedback, I'm fully = prepared to flesh out (if that's even an expression) my own theory some more. Could get= a little incoherent here and there, though I tried to keep it together. Let's go: + The Severus/Lucius relation I stated that the two are related as nephew/uncle, while Lilian proposed, m= uch more reasonably, that they're cousins. But even though I was momentarily stunned= , wondering why on earth I had made such a complicated connection when a much= easier one was available, and even though I must say I like the idea that L= ucius was Severus' Dudley, I still stand by my own version. First of all, it fits so = nicely with my idea of Snape. I can just picture a muggle version of him doing the punk ro= ck thing in his teens. Oh, maybe I should explain that when I work up my inner picture = of a punk kid, I immediately drift off to a type of bands that was dominating the mus= ic scene in Gothenburg during the late 90s. Most of them were in their late teens or ea= rly twenties, played alternative rock type music with teen angst associative ly= rics, and ? wondering how best to express myself here ? they struck from below and made= it their strength. Lilian said that making Lucius the uncle of Severus "gives = a different kind of authority between the two of them", and I can imagine Snape actuall= y liking such an arrangement. There is also the nice mental image I get of that bran= ch of the Black family tapestry, if you make it stretch as far as including Lucius Ma= lfoy's family. I like to have Snape, Draco and Tonks all in one line there, and I think it= also works well with my idea of Snape to have him all singled out in his own little br= anch of the tree. It would enhance his loneliness to not have a close family connection= of his own generation. So, that's why I went through all the hassle of inventing a Mal= foy sister to fit between two individuals who only differ in age with six years. ;) I cou= ld also add that a friend of mine is actually a few years younger than her own niece, s= o it's not like it never happens! + The Snape family situation Now, I didn't put much work into this in the first place, so these are all = new thoughts for me. :) The two things I find obvious are that 1: the parents didn't get= along and 2: the Snapes were poor. (78512 for a great post on this, and also what Wanda = in post 79083 said on the subject in this particular thread.) Number one is more or= less undisputable canon. Number two seems to be the general consensus around her= e. So let's leave those two aside and let me explain why I think Severus' parents= weren't both pureblood. (Just let me note here that I really liked Susan's explanat= ion of the argument Harry saw in Snape's memories; post 79086. Doesn't just solely fit= my motives nicely, mind you. :)) It's all in the Black tapestry and the fact t= hat Harry doesn't notice the name Snape on it. Not exactly rock solid, but Sirius poi= nts out names all over the thing and Harry notices pretty quickly that the Malfoys = are on it, so I believe he gets a pretty good survey of it. So, if all wizard families ar= e interrelated, why isn't the name Snape there? Because there never was a pureblood family = with that name. I'm not about to glue my feet to the ground and refuse to move from t= his, though; I think Marika's points on why Mr Snape was a squib were very good,= for instance (see post 79089). And also, if the Blacks and the Malfoys are some= of the most "noble" wizard families out there, it's quite possible that the Snape = family simply belonged to a different class, so marriages in between the two famil= ies weren't that common. Just like you suggested, Lilian. And yeah, I also really like = the idea that Snape is related to Phineas (credit to melpomene and Cindy). In fact I thin= k I'm pretty willing to accept any theory that gives him (Snape) a relative. Give the ma= n some family! + Agnes (full credit to Lilian!) Now, here's where it gets really interesting! My own theory didn't stretch = as far as having an actual canon individual to play the role of Mrs Snape. And it get= s even better! From OotP, page 452 UK ("Christmas on the Closed Ward"): --- "'Here you are, Agnes,' said the healer brightly to the furry-faced woman, = handing her a small pile of Christmas presents. `See, not forgotten, are you? And y= our son's sent an owl to say he's visiting tonight, so that's nice, isn't it?'" --- See? JKR even makes a point in informing us that Agnes has a son! And don't= worry asking why Neville has never met Snape there; he has never even told anyone= he goes there regularly himself, so they *could* have met, except Harry (and the re= aders) don't know. IMO, this is just perfect. Alright, now it feels like I'm getting somewhere. :) Hope I didn't get way = too carried away with the references there; I was just so happy that someone actually p= icked up on my post that I wanted to give credit to as many responders as possible. evangelina, who never realized Gothenburg sounds so much like Gotham City ;= ) From silmariel at telefonica.net Thu Aug 28 19:58:17 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:58:17 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:Time-Travel- it's Narrative Function In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308282158.18058.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 79099 Laurasia: > Why is there such a big deal made over `not changing time?' That > is, If it's a multi-occurring time-line, then changing time is > the whole point. Changing time is too risky. The less you do it, the better. PoA Chapter 21 `Hermione,' said Harry suddenly, `what if we - we just run in there and grab Pettigrew -` `No!' said Hermion is a terrified whisper. Don't you understand? We're breaking of on the most important wizarding laws! Nobody's supposed to change time, nobody!' Here she states events in the timeline can be changed, or so she thinks. I think she has been lectured to believe disaster will come if time is changed. I expect the same response for Hermione if Harry suggests to kill Pettigrew, but this doesn't mean it will be devastating for the world to have another dead. PoA Chapter 15 `The Quidditch Final' `Hermione, why didn't you come to Charms?' `What? Oh no!' Hermione squeaked. `I forgot to go to Charms!' `But how could you forget?' said Harry. `You were with us till we were right outside the classroom!' <> Why would Hermione use the tt when she has been caught? What for? To get a class? Even if she had not been lectured, it wouldn't be a sensible thing to do. >Why is "one of the most important wizarding laws" devoted to stopping people changing time? Because it can be changed, which is highly messing. You definitely don't want people to mess with the timeline. Yes, I say they control something powerful and lie to the population about it. Very MoMly >Why are time-tuners even allowed if they change time? Er... why were the dementors guarding Azkaban when it was so blatantly obvious they would side with Voldemort? I mean, mages can be pretty stupid, as muggles. A time turner is a powerful artifact, highly restricted, but DD was in the International League of Wizard Bosses, so could have one, and he assured himself that Hermione was properly lectured of what she could and couldn't do, or what he wanted to think. > Who cast the Patronus the first time? Snape. > Where was s/he the second time? Or, Why didn't s/he try to cast > the Patronus the second time? Pretending to be unconscious and he didn't need it, H2 was there to cast it. > How did s/he change their appearance to resemble James Potter? > Or, How did they make Harry have a `vision' of James Potter over > the lake> You know I can't use canon, but I'll try to use a first event sequence as simple as I can. He didn't. The first set doesn't include the vision of James. Harry loses vision, Snape cast patronus, Harry gets focus again, Snape invents the first lie he can, something as 'did you see him, Harry, by the lake' 'who' 'no one' and then goes 'unconscios/vague' again, as if he where almost unable to move. We reach Howgarts the first time. Snape tells DD, DD goes to speak with H/H and repeats the scene adding a single line, to Harry -It may be the trauma, but he thinks he saw your parent. Harry now is bound to be at the lake and realice it was him who Snape 'saw'. He casts patronus. Snape has seen second H2 so will do nothing, he won't reveal himself this time. And there is no need for the 'he saw your parent' line Harry has seen himself and will come on his own foot. Zap! Instant seamless line with all memories coherent. It has to be refined, but it is a good starting point. > What is the point of Harry casting the Patronus if he doesn't > have to? Snape can't do it overly, he has to pretend he's been defeated by tree 3rd years. It would be easy to suspect Pettigrew's scape was planned, he couldn't risk it. > If Harry can change time and suffer no consequences, why not just > send one version of himself back to use Buckbeak to rescue > Sirius, and another version of himself to catch Wormtail? Or why not use a thestral to rescue Sirius. Because he wasn't good at timeline thinking, and it's easy to lip? Because he has been lectured on what you can and can't do in time travel, and believed explanations? Because he didn't own the timeturner, it was Hermione who used it by grace of DD. Don't ask me why Sirius wasn't saved in an easier manner. Maybe it was the means for DD not to get implied (after all, DD has been in presence of witnesses). > Why not run back into the Time Room at the Department of Mysteries > to see if he can't find a suitable time-turner and save Sirius's > life? Because he was in shock and he didn't think about it, I see Harry very in character remembering about the tts and just using one. It would be suicidal, but very Harry-like. > Why doesn't Dumbledore go back in time and get rid of Riddle > while he still can? For what we know, he could have tried. But when? Do you see him murdering Tom Riddle at 16? Later Voldie got lost. I think I've rambled enough. silmariel From lbiles at flash.net Thu Aug 28 20:28:29 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:28:29 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungos ( was Re: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79100 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" > wrote: > > Brief Chronicles: The bubblegum wrapper makes me really wonder. ... Could bubblegum be a device to save the world from LV? ;) > > > bboy_mn: ***MUCH SNIPPED THROUGHOUT*** > So Mrs. Longbottom sees the colorful wrapper and thinks, 'that's pretty, I think Neville would like this'. This isn't just the random wanderings and actions of a deranged person as Gran. Longbottom seems to think. This is a deliberate act on Mrs. Longbottom's part. But she is so limited in her abilities, so deep in the dense fog that surrounds her, that this is the best she can do to acknowledge that she knows who Neville is and that she cares for him very deeply. > > I think Neville understand this. I think he knows that these colorful gum wrapper are his mother attempt to let Neville know that she is aware of him. That's why Neville keeps them. He knows that given the effort it takes for his mother to overcome the fog that smothers her, to give these lowly gifts is a monumental effort on her part. So, he cherishes every single one of them. > > The next part is the part that is driving us all nuts. What is the deeper significants of the gum wrappers? What is their greater role in the plot developement? > leb: First of all, I just have to say that I love to read the posts by bboy because they are always so structured and well thought out. It seems like whenever I have some half baked theory floating in the back of my brain and you subsequently expound upon the subject it is the catalyst I need to come to a conclusion one way or another (even if I'm not in agreement with you). So now that you have touched upon another of my ponderings I'm going to toss my theory out -- half baked though it is -- and see if maybe you can make this one gel for me or not. (Sorry to toss all the responsibility on you *g*!) I have been a firm believer that the gum wrappers are one of the most significant things we have run across ever since that first read oh so long ago. To me, this is a given in this theory. An assumption (which makes or breaks this theory) is that LV is to be brought down by "Love" -- the contents of the locked room, something Harry has in abundance, yada yada. This has been discussed to death but maybe this is a different twist to it. So . . . here goes . . . maybe Neville (the alternate chosen one -- another assumption which can make or break the theory) will use the wrappers - tokens of love from his mother - to in some way defeat LV. Whether they are potion ingredients (no more odd an ingredient than armadillo bile or someone else's arm) or he ends up transfiguring them into an army of minions to do his bidding I have no clue but it just seems to match what is needed. What do you think? leb -- who thinks this sounds much more half baked written out than it did in my head From meltowne at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 20:32:30 2003 From: meltowne at yahoo.com (meltowne) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:32:30 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79101 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mlle_bienvenu" wrote: > Artist: Lyrics > Song: Lily's Eyes Lyrics snip... > [NEVILLE] > From death she casts her spell > All night we hear her sighs > And now a girl has come > Who has her eyes Well, lily cast a spell that protected Harry in her death... > She has her eyes > The girl has Lily's hazel eyes > Those eyes that saw him happy long ago > Those eyes that gave him life > And hope he'd never known > How can he see the girl > And miss those hazel eyes Hazel eyes... or greenish eyes... just like Lily and Harry? snip... > [NEVILLE] > She has her eyes > She has my Lily's hazel eyes > Those eyes that loved my brother- never me > Those eyes that never saw me > Never knew I longed > To hold her close > To live at last in Lily's Eyes I know it's not really part of the eyes in the HP universe, but this sounds like Sirius talking - his mother hated him, but loved his brother. I wonder how Lily really felt about Sirius, and how he felt about her? He was like a brother to James. Of course, if you buy that Snape was in love with Lily, he would be the one who couldn't stand the sight of Harry with Lily's eyes (which he loved) in James' body (which he hated, of course). Melinda From christopher at changingthetimes.co.uk Thu Aug 28 22:18:55 2003 From: christopher at changingthetimes.co.uk (thesuddenstrike) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:18:55 -0000 Subject: LV did not blunder Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79102 The question has been raised that LV might have blundered when he ordered that the dementors left the prison and the Death Eaters escape, I believe that it was not a mistake. 1) We do not know that the dementors are the only guards at the prison. There could be an auror base there as well. The dementors are blind and would probably be unaware that Sirius had escaped (if they could not drain padfood, then why did they not sound the alert then?), therefore it might well have been someone else who rasied the alarm about Sirus's escape. 2) Continuing this thread, we know of no auror who went bad and joined LV. On the other hand, we know that Dumbledore had at least seven aurors on his side, the Potters, Longbottoms, Tonks, Moody and perhaps Sirus. Therefore, a base at the prison would be exposed to possible discovery by aurors, who might be part of the OOP. 3) The dementors do have a rather bad effect on people near them. The Death Eaters might well have been in no state for a fight or be of any use whatsoever, until they had time to recover. Therefore, removing them from the prison was important. 4) Continuing that point, leaving the dementors in an empty prison would serve as a red flag that they could no longer be trusted. Therefore, they had to leave at the same time. 5) Finally, the Death Eaters captured at the ministry may well have been ones that were untrustworthy and therefore disposable. Chris From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Aug 28 22:26:52 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:26:52 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Where is Snape???? Message-ID: <1cf.10098c2d.2c7fdbac@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79103 In a message dated 8/27/2003 12:31:22 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jazmyn at pacificpuma.com writes: > > Peter as Scabbers mostly only had Ron's opinion of Snape to go on and > Ron thinks Snape is evil and not reformed at all. Harry certainly had > no love of Snape either. > I wasn't speaking of Pettigrew as Scabbers - I was speaking of him as a member of the Order before Voldemorts' fall. (He appears in the photo that Moody shows Harry at the Prefect Party.) Now, granted, if I were Dumbledore I'd want to keep the identity of my spy a secret buried, oh, about as deep as the Marianas Trench. Perhaps (let's hope!) only Dumbledore, or possibly Dumbledore & Moody, knew who "The Viper" was. (No, not a canon name - I just like it! ) But it's not unreasonable to believe that Pettigrew MIGHT have discovered the secret - & then may all the gods help Sev... Sherrie (preparing to defend Sev against all comers!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 22:50:13 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:50:13 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Black's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79104 <<<"sylviablundell2001" wrote: I think Mrs. Black must be a Black by birth as well as by marriage. The probability is that she married a cousin, which is likely quite common among pure-blood families...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says: It might also begin to explain why she's so noisily demented. Some of those effects of inbreeding kick in as one gets older; if Sirius is under 40, his mother can't have been that old when she died, even if that was comparatively recently. Premature senile dementia? --JDR From MadameSSnape at aol.com Thu Aug 28 22:58:26 2003 From: MadameSSnape at aol.com (MadameSSnape at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:58:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Lily's Eyes Message-ID: <75.180456fe.2c7fe312@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79105 In a message dated 8/27/2003 6:15:20 PM Eastern Daylight Time, pokeypokey at comcast.net writes: > I was reading a post about Lily's eyes, and a thought just popped > into my head. In "The Secret Garden", which is a musical, and > also a book, there's a song called "Lily's Eyes"... It goes > something like... > > "He has her eyes, > He has Lily's hazel eyes..." > > (I can't remember anymore!) > > Anyway... it's talking about two characters- Colin and Lily. The > song is about how Colin has his (dead) mother's eyes. Actually, it's Mary who has her dead aunt's eyes.... "...She has her eyes, she has my Lily's hazel eyes, Those eyes that closed and left me all alone, Those eyes I swear will never, ever let me go - How can I see this girl who has her hazel eyes?..." Here's a link to the full lyrics: Lyrics - Lily's Eyes Lyrics. the Secret Garden Soundtrack Lyrics Sherrie (who adores that show, & ESPECIALLY Mandy Patinkin!) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 28 23:00:45 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:00:45 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79106 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > + Agnes (full credit to Lilian!) > Now, here's where it gets really interesting! My own theory didn't stretch = > as far as > having an actual canon individual to play the role of Mrs Snape. And it get= > s even > better! From OotP, page 452 UK ("Christmas on the Closed Ward"): > > --- > "'Here you are, Agnes,' said the healer brightly to the furry-faced woman, = > handing > her a small pile of Christmas presents. `See, not forgotten, are you? And y= > our son's > sent an owl to say he's visiting tonight, so that's nice, isn't it?'" > --- > > See? JKR even makes a point in informing us that Agnes has a son! And don't= > worry > asking why Neville has never met Snape there; he has never even told anyone= > he goes > there regularly himself, so they *could* have met, except Harry (and the re= > aders) > don't know. IMO, this is just perfect. > > Alright, now it feels like I'm getting somewhere. :) Hope I didn't get way = > too carried > away with the references there; I was just so happy that someone actually p= > icked up > on my post that I wanted to give credit to as many responders as possible. > > evangelina, who never realized Gothenburg sounds so much like Gotham City ;= > ) I'm so sorry for the major snip to a great post...moderators scare me...Two things I'd like your input on. 1)All family members should have a place on the tapestry up to the date of last updating which might explain Tonks not being there...she was not born yet at the last update. Even if they are disgraced, the mark of where they were should still be there. I thought Sirius explained the marks to Harry which were the disgraced family members. And Harry would definitely have spotted Snapes name right off if it was on there. 2) Neville may very well have seen Snape at St. Mungos even if it was only once. It could be that Snape had some sort of an agreement with him not to tell anyone. Could that be why he is so awful to Neville all the time? Could he be afraid that Neville will spill the beans to Harry since they are always near each other? From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Thu Aug 28 23:06:07 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:06:07 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79107 <<<"evangelina839" wrote:...And don't worry asking why Neville has never met Snape there; he has never even told anyone he goes there regularly himself, so they *could* have met, except Harry (and the readers) don't know. IMO, this is just perfect...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says This also gives Snape a better reason for bullying Neville than sheer nastiness. He wants Neville to be too intimidated to ever mention this connection to Snape, or feel close enough to him to sympathize or feel sorry for him. Perfect indeed, giving Snape relatives and feelings! Now all that's needed is to tie James into this somehow, like maybe James knows, or even is related to, the elder Snape; maybe he tried to be nice to Snape when they were younger and ran into such hostility that he thought "Forget you! Suffer by yourself!" --JDR From fc26det at aol.com Thu Aug 28 23:21:31 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:21:31 -0000 Subject: Percy question Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79108 Mugglenet.com currently has a poll asking if Percy will appologize to his family. This is a very interesting question. I have very mixed feelings about this. Part of me says that he will offer it up and admit that he was being power hungry and stupid. The other part of me says that he will have every excuse in the world and feel that he did nothing wrong and maybe even turn the events around to where he insists that he was right all along and his family should appologize to him. Any thoughts? Susan=Potterfanme From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 23:31:22 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:31:22 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungos ( was Re: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79109 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "leb2323" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > ***MUCH SNIPPED THROUGHOUT*** > > > > What is the deeper significants of the gum wrappers? What is their > > greater role in the plot developement? > > > > leb: > > So . . . here goes . . . maybe Neville ...) will use the wrappers - > ... - to in some way defeat LV. Whether they are potion ingredients > ... or he ends up transfiguring them into an army of minions ... I > have no clue but it just seems to match what is needed. > > What do you think? > leb -- who thinks this sounds much more half baked written out than > it did in my head bboy_mn: Thanks, I try to write well thought out posts, although, mostly I think them out as I write them (too much time on my hands). Well, regarding the wrappers, I'm not sure at the moment. As I said, I know these gum wrapper means something, but I don't really have a clue what it might be. As far as your theory, sorry but I don't personally think the gum wrapper are part of the main Harry/Voldemort plot. I think they are part of a subplot that deals primarily with Neville, and the part he will play in the story. I also think book 5 is too soon to introduce the gum wrappers if they are not going to come into play until book 7 when Voldemort is defeated. My instinct at the moment, tells me that the wrappers are a clue to helping the Longbottoms recover. Or it could just be some little detail JKR threw in to drive us nuts; she certain is succeeding. Just a thought. bboy_mn From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Fri Aug 29 00:00:56 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:00:56 -0000 Subject: Mrs. Black's House In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79110 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" > wrote: > > I think Mrs. Black must be a Black by birth as well as by > marriage. > > The probability is that she married a cousin, which is likely > quite > > common among pure-blood families. This would enable her to talk > > proprietorially about the Noble House of Black if she actually was > > born into it, rather than married into it. > > Sylvia (prepared to be proved completely wrong) > > That probability is pretty high, I'd say. Have you read any Anne > Rice? The Mayfair Witches were notorious for this, and prefered to > keep the leniage in the family, so to speak. So it would not > be a stretch for a family bent on remaining the purest of pure > bloods to marry with in their own bloodlines. > > Severus Hi~ And it is not just Mayfair witches, think FDR and his wife Ellie, she was a Roosevelt, from birth. The joke when they got married was that she wouldn't even have to change her initals on her luggage. (She had a lot of $$ too.. it helps keeping it *all* in the family... ya get to keep it). I think that is the premis behind Siris' mother's house. It was hers handed down to her by her family, then she married S's father... His name was Black... too.. gosh he was most likely her first cousin. Not to sound too gross, but in ancient times marring you brother (usually different mothers) was the way to keep the faimly pure. Cleopatra was married to her little brother (yes they had kids) :\ (ick) But, maybe that's why the family is so nuts. Oh well, just a thought. Tj From lziner at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 00:51:15 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:51:15 -0000 Subject: Another LV Blunder - was Fudge is a DE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79111 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Lana:"I seem to recall reading at some point that prisoners couldn't > Apparate out of Azkaban because they were deprived of their wands > when they arrived." > > You still need anti-Apparition magic for the grounds in order to keep > your cousin Louie from apparating into the grouonds to spring you, or > sending you a wand in a birthday cake or something. Do youo need a > wand to Apparate? > > I'm sure prisoners are deprived of their wands when they're first > arrested. > > Jim I believe Jim is correct. In PoA, Sirius uses Snapes wand to confront Peter. I find it interesting that even though the wand chooses the wizard - you can use another person's wand. Like Crouch in Gof using Harry's. Lziner From lziner at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 00:59:36 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:59:36 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79112 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Potterfanme" wrote: > Mugglenet.com currently has a poll asking if Percy will appologize to > his family. This is a very interesting question. I have very mixed > feelings about this. Part of me says that he will offer it up and > admit that he was being power hungry and stupid. The other part of > me says that he will have every excuse in the world and feel that he > did nothing wrong and maybe even turn the events around to where he > insists that he was right all along and his family should appologize > to him. Any thoughts? > Susan=Potterfanme Good post :) I do not believe he will apologize. I do believe that Molly will just be so happy he's "back in the fold" - no apology will be necessary. Of course, to his brothers and father, an apology is expected but I doubt Percy will "step-up" and admit he was wrong. I bet he keeps his sweater this Christmas. Let's just hope Fred and George give him hell. lziner From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 01:04:29 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:04:29 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79113 Susan:"[Will Percy apologize to his family?]This is a very interesting question. I have very mixed feelings about this. Part of me says that he will offer it up and admit that he was being power hungry and stupid. The other part of me says that he will have every excuse in the world and feel that he did nothing wrong and maybe even turn the events around to where he insists that he was right all along and his family should apologize to him." My money says Percy will come back. Even though Percy was a disgusting sycophant this year, truly a revolting, lick-spittle apparatchik toady, he's still a Weasley, and I think the good family background will tell in the end. I actually think this was Percy's rebellion. Like Ron, he was embarrassed at being poor and wanted to do better. Percy looked at his eccentric father and saw Arhur holding back the whole family because Arthur is his own man; so Percy decided he was going to go along to get along ? and it seemed to work, for a while. Now Percy's having the wrongness of it stuffed down his throat. Dumbledore and Harry, who he repudiated, and his own brother and sister, from the family he rejected, have won a victory over the Dark Side and disgraced the man he was sucking up to. They're heroes and Percy's a lacky. Percy's not stupid, and he doesn't need a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. But more important, I don't think Percy's evil. What Percy also is is the unredeemed Hermione. She was like him in many ways when she arrived at Hogwarts, and she could have gone the same way as him, but her friendship with Harry and Ron transformed her more wonderfully than any of the other characters. Among the great she is, and Percy must look at her and see in her the moral center and courage that he lacks. All his life he depended on higher authority and all the rules he could find to guide his life, and it's stopped working. It's got to be a really bleak feeling. But again, he's a Weasley, and I think that's what will save him in the end. It's also likely to be his death. It wouldn't surprise me to see Percy give himself up as part of his redemption. It might be too conventional for JKR, but I think we will see Redeemed!Percy. Jim Ferer From kiatrier at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 01:15:35 2003 From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:15:35 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Buckbeak is Dead - Hypothetically Speaking Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79114 Buckbeak is Dead - Hypothetically Speaking Seeing someone walking on water is a rare sight everywhere, so a few people in Theory Bay do a double-take when they see a girl pulling that stunt. A closer look however reveals that the person is question was no walking on water at all, but rather was on board of the smallest ship possible to set a small toe in - a walnut shell. Upon reach the safe haven of Theory Bay Kia let out a sigh of pure relief. "Not a sailor, nope." She steps upon the first available rock and holds up the walnut shell while looking expectantly at the passers-by. "This is B.I.D. Take a good look at it, because it is the smallest possible ship ever to sail the waters of Theory Bay. And although it is rather small, it can not only transport small toes, but grown people and quite a few of them. I even consider it possible of it to host whole parties - with a buffet to boot." Kia stops to catch her breath, but continues with even more enthusiasm: "B.I.D. stands for "Buckbeak Is Dead" - not the catchiest of all phrases and the ship is open for any re-naming schemes - but currently it's celebrating Buckbeak's death. But isn't Buckbeak all breathing and happily munching away at dead rats or something in the middle of somewhere, you might ask? Yes, he is. He is as alive as you can be, but that was not always the case. Remember the time when you, the reader thought along with Harry that Beaky was "pushing up the daisies"? When Harry thought Beaky had "joined the choir invisible"? When he was an ex-hippogriff? Don't you remember the heartache, the pain, the bone-crushing despair? Well, then I obviously have to remind you." The speaker takes her nutshell and pulls a copy of Prisoner of Azkaban out of it. "Ah... here it is. Chapter Sixteen/Seventeen. I will remove the unnecessary pieces of dialogue to not bore you too much: 'Slowly, in a kind of horrified trance, Harry, Ron, and Hermione set off silently around Hagrid's house. As they reached the other side, the front door closed with a sharp snap. ... They heard a door open behind them and men's voices. "Oh, Ron, please let's move, they're going to do it!" Hermione breathed.... They walked forward; Harry, like Hermione, was trying not to listen to the rumble of voices behind them... The rat was squealing wildly, but not loudly enough to cover up the sounds drifting from Hagrid's garden. There was a jumble of indistinct male voices, a silence, and then, without warning, the unmistakable swish and thud of an axe. Hermione swayed on the spot. "They did it!" she whispered to Harry. "I d -- don't believe it -- they did it!" Harry's mind had gone blank with shock. The three of them stood transfixed with horror under the Invisibility Cloak. The very last rays of the setting sun were casting a bloody light over the long- shadowed grounds. Then, behind them, they heard a wild howling. "Hagrid," Harry muttered.' Beaky is dead. Dead, dead, dead. Why? Because Harry hears his murder. He hears doors slamming, the men's voices, the axe and Hagrid's wailing. The information those noises tell him is simple enough - Buckbeak is dead as a doornail. Deceased. As I said before - dead, dead, dead. But no - surprise - he is not. Alive, breathing, healthy, he lives on. The information Harry's ears gave his brains were correct, but his brain was lacking crucial information to put them into context and draw the right conclusions. If Harry had another source of information in that moment - like his eyes - he would have come not to the false, false, false conclusion he came to. Buckbeak would never be thought of as dead. But no. All is complicated in PoA. What makes Buckbeak's death interesting is not his possible impact on philosophy and physics - if the narrator thinks you're dead, does it mean you *are* dead? - but rather something in the background, something weird and strange and too coincidental. The problem is that there is another murder Harry hears - and only hears - in PoA. The murder of his parents: 'At least a hundred dementors, their hidden faces pointing up at him, were standing beneath him. It was as though freezing water were rising in his chest, cutting at his insides. And then he heard it again.... Someone was screaming, screaming inside his head... a woman... "Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!" "Stand aside, you silly girl... stand aside, now...." "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --" Numbing, swirling white mist was filling Harry's brain.... What was he doing? Why was he flying? He needed to help her... She was going to die.... She was going to be murdered.... -------- He was falling, falling through the icy mist. "Not Harry! Please... have mercy... have mercy.... A shrill voice was laughing, the woman was screaming, and Harry knew no more. -------- Harry was failing again through thick white fog, and his mother's voice was louder than ever, echoing inside his head -- "Not Harry! Not Harry! please -- I'll do anything!" "Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!" "Harry!" Harry jerked back to life. -------- White fog obscured his senses... big, blurred shapes were moving around him... then came a new voice, a man's voice, shouting, panicking -- "Lily, take Harry and go! It's him! Go! Run! I'll hold him off --" The sounds of someone stumbling from a room -- a door bursting open -- a cackle of high- pitched laughter --' See - it's all audio and no video. No images, just sound. You know normally I would let it go, despite the cuteness of this walnut of a vessel here, but..." Kia looks thoughtful at the nutshell "Beaky, Biddy, Beaky" she mumbles before continuing: "This is the installment of the series where our beloved authoress hits us over the head with the fact that Harry can't trust his ears when it comes to witnessing murder. I mean, what's the purpose of Beaky's pseudo-death, if not to bring this point home? I mean what's the purpose of Beaky's storyline besides that? Illustrating MacNair's nastiness, showing corrupting justice system in the Wizarding World, adding a bit of tension and making the plot a bit more intricate? Okay, yes, but was it really necessary to let Harry *hear* the death? So what's up with B.I.D., the beloved walnut shell here? Beaky - as I affectionaly call it - is all about the obvious and the not-so-obvious. B.I.D. stands for the idea that if one audio-murder is totally and utterly fake and not-happening, something must be wrong the second audio murder as well. I am not saying, that Lily and James are off and healthy, I am just saying, something went down there Harry (and everyone else obviously) has no idea of. Something happened Rowling has not told us yet. And we are in for a surprise. So any bids for B.I.D. here? It's cool and beautiful and now for a bargain - you can get even a second ship here." With a a big grin Kia magicks an even smaller smaller something out of the walnut shell. Its origins are unknown, it has no name and doesn't look like it would float in a bathtub. "This so far unnamed ship might be of microscopic size, but it holds a lot of ideas. It's mothership surely is B.I.D. but this one goes out into rougher seas... uhm not really, but you get the idea. Anyway - when the information Harry's ears received about the events are not all that exact and there is some crucial information missing - what could it possibly be? I don't think that James and Lily are still alive - the Priori Incantatem in GoF took care of that - so it must be something else, something we have heard and yet along with Harry completely misinterpreted. "Stand aside, you silly girl... stand aside, now...." "Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead --" Who says that this silly girl is Lily? The text doesn't. Yes, I propose that there was fourth person in the house along with Lily, James and Harry. Why? The Priori Incatatem. A spell was missing. The spell directed at Harry that crippled Voldemort. That famous, famous spell didn't show up at all. Voldemort's wand. Who fished that out of the rubble and kept it for years and gave it back before Voldemort's resurrection? But maybe there was no need to fish it out of the rubble after all, because it 'vanished' before. The Priori Incatatem again. Or better the Wand Order mistake. It's crucial for our perception of the HP story that it was Lily's and not James' sacrifice that protected Harry. Therefore it's crucial knowledge that Lily was the last line of defense, that Lily was to die after James. But Rowling who tends to do an impeccable job with continuity and the like just slips here - majorly. Which might lead to the speculation that Rowling's perception of the night and the importance of "who died first" differs from ours. What if it doesn't matter who died first for Rowling? What if she doesn't caught the mistake because the 'silly girl' in Harry's bedroom is not Lily?" The girl on the rock clears her throat: "Naturally I have no idea who this could be and the possibilities are endless, but I will not cover up the huge, sheer gaping hole in this theory here either. The reason why those ships are so ridiculously small is not their sheer idiocy, but rather a problem with the point of view. We have no way of witnessing the event in question visually. We know Buckbeak is alive because Harry saw it with his eyes. With James, Lily and possibly the the unknown girl dead we have no one to give us nice dive into a pensieve. Voldemort won't volunteer and if Baby!Harry was able to witness enough to make a wonderfully three-dimensional Pensive memory out of it, then why was this not attempted before? Okay, don't answer the last one - witnessing your parents' death is not a fun thing to do on a Saturday evening. But I have enough of pensieves for the time being. Thank you very much. Don't like them enough even if they could inflate my pitiful attempts on a ship.... My wonderful, great, beautiful, perfect ships here that you can buy now for a bargain price. Two for the price of one and the price ain't high. They're hot, they're cool, they're all-temperature ships. Wanna walk on water too? Buy now or the opportunity will be lost forever! Bargain! Bargain! BARGAIN! From sollecks970 at aol.com Thu Aug 28 14:32:36 2003 From: sollecks970 at aol.com (fawkes970) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:32:36 -0000 Subject: Their Final Duel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79116 In The Goblet of Fire: Voldemort and Harry duel at the cemetary. However, since both wands are brothers(containing the feathers of the same Pheonix*Fawkes*) theyre wands do not work properly against eachother: my guess is that the same exact thing will happen as in GoF, and Harry will force out the last people he killed, thust prdocuing a temporary shield for Harry and at the same time allowing Harry to strike while Voldemort is unable to do so. Any comments? ~Fawkes(pat) From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Thu Aug 28 14:57:16 2003 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:57:16 -0000 Subject: Predictions at Madison Square Garden Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79117 In the green corner, the obvious HP-allies: H/R/H, DD, the OoP, the DA. Seems fair to add the rest of the Hogwarts staff (maybe not the DADA-lol), Gryffindor and Fawkes. Give me the creature castoffs, too: Firenze, Grawp and Dobby. And in the red corner, the obvious Voldie-allies: DE's and Dementors. Maybe big snakes. I'm done. Have I missed anything? Yes, yes, I know that LV has been recruiting other races to his cause. So has DD. Yes, yes, I know that ESE!Fudge is a possibility. And a host of other individuals, too. So Harry has the most powerful wizard and a group of supporters that is growing in size and ability. LV's supporters are on the run. In the last battle (in the MoM), Harry's team clobbered the DE's despite a late start by the OoP and DD. Harry's group is the champ to LV's chump. So now my predictions for how this becomes less lopsided. First, LV and the DE's must eliminate two or three key OoP members ambush-style. Sorry, Lupin lovers, but it's a fire sale and all powerful parent-types close to Harry must go! You, too, Arthur & Molly Weasley! Ron, why did you tell Harry, "it's all your fault"? Whoa, Moody, I have other plans for you. Second, meanwhile the goblins and Dementors smell blood in the water and start wreaking havoc in their own unique ways. Dementors take a few souls at the MoM and even in Muggledom! And Goblins go on the warpath against their long-hated foes, the WW. MoM nearly collapses under the constant financial and mortal threats. The newspapers take opposite opinions on everything (as usual), muddying the water so completely that the average wizard doesn't know what to do. Chaos is LV's friend. Third, the marauding DE's drive Harry from his new home at Hogwarts, so he must now spend all his time with the completely frightening, gut-wrenching duo of Snape and Mad-Eye Moody! Yes, watch Harry as he twists in the wind, separated from his friends and mentors. Relegated to the company of two of the most inhospitable companions imaginable! Once Tonks joins their exciting trio, see Harry grow increasingly convinced that one of them is an agent of LV then incorrectly (as always) guess that it's Snape! Ah, the joys of JKR's continuing lessons in not judging a book by its cover. Fourth, watch as Dumbledore walks into a trap and is vanquished by a turncoat in his midst. Back-stabbing at its best, my friends! Of course, he could be vanquished by a memory charm or time-turner! There's got to be a return trip for dear, dear DD in JKR's world, right? Fifth, see Harry saved by Moody, Tonks or Shacklebolt and taken to a beautiful reunion with his SHIP-mate and two or three other close friends (all schoolmates, of course). Tears flow, Harry blames himself and then vows to never let someone so close be taken from him again. So he disappears. End of book 6. Now, I'm not going to guess where he goes for protection when he disappears, but there are a few forest-dwellers who know and support him, and could both keep him hidden and help train him for his confrontation in book 7 . Could the first few chapters of book 7 be written for the first time from the perspective of the character most like JKR herself? Hermione, anyone? At last establishing in cannon her feelings for Harry (whether friends or SHIPmates) and the way Harry appears to everyone else. OK, I'm done. Throw your yellow flags, I can take it. But I can also show through cannon that all of the above are continuations of existing themes and trends! Remnant But first, Harry, you must master yourself. From rwday at cox.net Thu Aug 28 16:40:20 2003 From: rwday at cox.net (Becky Day) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 11:40:20 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000701c36d83$134072c0$6400a8c0@Dadscomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 79118 Referring to the Avada Kedavra curse, Melpomene writes: >You know this for sure? Not to get too far into spiritualism here but >as it's touched on in the books with ghosts, poltergeists and the >infamous 'veil' I'd be willing to bet that AK destroys the soul. That >is hardly a merciful death. Didn't Harry's parents and Cedric Diggory die from Avada Kedavra? I really don't think there's any indication in the books that the Potters or Diggory didn't go on to whatever afterlife wizards have, so I think their souls are probably intact. I think that the AK curse could be merciful, because there are times when death is a blessing. Becky From owlery2003 at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 01:26:34 2003 From: owlery2003 at yahoo.com (Scott Santangelo) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:26:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030829012634.18812.qmail@web20711.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79119 Potterfanme wrote: Susan said: Mugglenet.com currently has a poll asking if Percy will appologize to his family. This is a very interesting question. I have very mixed feelings about this. Part of me says that he will offer it up and admit that he was being power hungry and stupid. The other part of me says that he will have every excuse in the world and feel that he did nothing wrong and maybe even turn the events around to where he insists that he was right all along and his family should appologize to him. Any thoughts? ------------------- I think he'll end up reconciling. It's often seen where the WW (or characters like Molly) are persuaded by public opinion (Rita Skeeter, Daily Prophet, Gilderoy . . .) to the point of near blindness. Molly's suspicions toward Hermione are classic, because she should really know better, having the opportunity to observe Hermy firsthand. After a revelation, though, people "suddenly realize" something and the WW revises it's opinions (Harry following the Quibbler article, etc.). So, in keeping with that trend, I'm banking on a revised Percy. He was built up as such a mama's boy in the early books that I can't imagine his ego blocking that emotional vent. Unfortunately, this reinforces my "dead Molly" theory . . . sorry about that. It may take that to get the blinders off Percy. owlery2003 --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From eschaafin at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 15:50:14 2003 From: eschaafin at yahoo.com (Sophie) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 15:50:14 -0000 Subject: Emma's post on a mistake in the prophecy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79120 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "punkstarz85" wrote: >Simply by reading the previous books, it's > obvious Lord Voldemort is going to try AK, the question is, how is > Harry going to kill Lord Voldemort? I agree that Voldemort will try the AK on Harry, but I can't see Harry (even a batle-hardened Harry) doing the same to Voldemort. My initial inclination after reading the prophecy, and thinking about the mechanics of it is that Voldemort will die like Sirius: he'll be in a battle with Harry, perhaps will be caught off guard by Neville, and accidently fall backwards through the veil. JKR is already setting it up for us to know that no one can come back from behind the veil, so it would be an appropriate ending. Neville's role in this will be instrumental; much like Gollum's role in LotR. Frodo always seemed like the means to the end, but in the end Frodo was just the (crucial) support to make it happen. Sophie From dwoodward at towson.edu Thu Aug 28 18:05:47 2003 From: dwoodward at towson.edu (Woodward, Deirdre) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:05:47 -0400 Subject: Why Wizards Don't Use Ball-Point Pens (and other Muggle artifacts) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79121 Here's the definitive answer to the Muggle artifact question. *clears her throat in a self-important way* My theory -- the Truth, really -- is that Wizards don't use Muggle artifacts because Muggle artifacts more often than not create trash -- old cars, throw-away pens, McDonald wrappers, etc. There is no trash in the Wizard World (except chocolate frog wrappers, and even they are made from recycled hemp). Wizards live with the earth, so they live in a world that respects the earth. Wizards, if they voted, would vote green. *bows to the audience who recognizes the genius behind her theory* *gets kicked into TheoryBay* Deirdre Eight of Eight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From carlpelleg at aol.com Thu Aug 28 18:28:08 2003 From: carlpelleg at aol.com (carlpelleg at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:28:08 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unforgiveable and dark magic Message-ID: <74.31ea4ed3.2c7fa3b8@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79123 In a message dated 8/28/03 2:55:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, gbannister10 at aol.com writes: snip << Dark magic is surely magic used for an evil end. Can you suggest situations where the Cruciatus Curse, the Imperius Curse or the Avada Kedavra Curses could be used to constructive ends? I believe they are implicitly dark and evil and, hence, unforgiveable. Geoff >> I have found a few uses for the three 'Unforgivable Curses'. Avada Kedavra Curses - If it just causes a physical death (i.e. nothing hapens to the spirit or the soul) than it could be used during legalized death penalties. Of course this only applies if the Wizarding World has the death penalty. Cruciatus Curse - As this gives pain it could be used, in small doses, to help interrogate a prisoner. Or it can help an individual learn to control pain in their body. Otherwise it could be used in an offensive capacity. (This is all I can think about this curse, if I can think of more reasons than I will post my thoughts.) Imperius Curse - What would you say if somebody put a known death eater under the Imperius Curse and told them to report to Dumbledore after every meeting but otherwise to act normal. You are using it on a bad person in order to save the lives of other people. (I know this is stretching it) I must note that too me magic is entirely neutral (gray if you will) and that it is the casters actions, beliefs, feelings, and reasons that make something dark or light. "Carl Pelleg" From rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk Thu Aug 28 19:15:28 2003 From: rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk (dream_catcher3010) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 19:15:28 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79124 Hi everyone, I've been searching through the archives of both this and the OT list to see if there had been any discussions about possible star signs of the characters, but sadly without any luck. If anyone does know of any and could direct me i'd be really grateful. I'd like to examine the star signs of the characters and how well they are suited to them, and try to match up other characters with star signs people think they are suited to. Now of course, we know that Harry is a Leo (31/7), Hermione is a Virgo (19/9) and Ron a Pisces (1/3). But as far as I recall we haven't learnt the birthdays of any of the other characters. Of course as these (as far as I am aware) are the only dates JKR has released they may have their own significance and have nothing to do with star signs. To me however, Hermione seems the perfect Virgo. Virgos are earth signs which means they are honest, reliable and down-to-earth, they like facts, both analysing them and challenging them, and are known perfectionists. They like lists, order and can sometimes be accused of nit-picking. They are studious and hard working and can be inclined to spend there time fussing over this or that. Now, if JK didn't pick Hermiones birthday intentionally it was a really lucky guess imho. On the flip side Harry isn't the typical Leo, although he does have some of the Lion's traits. Leos are the ultimate attention seekers, not Harry at all. They are showmen, outgoing and idealistic, with a self-confidence that can be mistaken for arrogance by some. However, they are natural leaders, faithful, warm-hearted and loyal. JKR has said that she gave Harry her birthday because she felt that there was a shortage of famous people with this birthday. So if he doesn't fit all the characteristics we know its because she wasn't thinking of his birthday in terms of star signs. Then of course there's Ron. Who again is a bit of a question mark. Pisces are intuitive, sensitive, imaginative and sympathetic. But they can also be vague, secretive and easily-led. There is of course much more to say about Pisceans, but I won't put it down here as it is neither particularly like nor un-like Ron. Pisceans are also said to be very spiritual. Perhaps this could support Dumbledore as a Pisces and with it REDHEAD ALWAYS? Does anyone have any suggestions as to which signs they think characters are (more)suited to? I'd like to nominate Sirius (and to a lesser extent, possibly Snape and Draco I think) as Scorpios. Scorpios are the most intense and powerful signs of the zodiac. That power can be used fly like an eagle or be underhanded. They always get what they want no matter how long they have to wait, even revenge. Scorpios possess an extremely loyal streak and may exert themselves to extremes to prove their worth and love to family and friends. They are emotional people that can be quick tempered and who make for terrible enemies. They try to protect this emotional side of themselves by becoming secretive about their personal life. As a fixed sign they can be rather stubborn and resistant to imposed changes. I would also like to suggest Neville as a contender for Taurus, especially after his character development in OoP. Taureans often portray characteristics of extreme determination and stregth of will. They will willingly and loyally follow a leader who they trust They are stable, balanced, and lovers of peace. They are faithful and generous. In the main Taureans are gentle, even-tempered,good-natured and slow to anger. If they are provoked however, they can explode into violent outbursts. I think this is very much like Neville and he was the first person I thought of when I read this description (taken from The Practical Astrologer - David Christie-Murray). I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on the characters star signs, of course including those I haven't mentioned. Hope i'm not going over old ground or rambled to much. Also, sorry to the mods if this should be on the OT list, I wasn't sure. Regards, Rachel From brightlywoven at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 20:08:35 2003 From: brightlywoven at yahoo.com (brightlywoven) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:08:35 -0000 Subject: Lily's Eyes (Secret Garden similarities) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79125 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > >This is really random, and probably has nothing to do with Harry, > >but I just thought I might put it out there.... > > > >I was reading a post about Lily's eyes, and a thought just popped > >into my head. In "The Secret Garden", which is a musical, and > >also a book, there's a song called "Lily's Eyes"... It goes > >something like... > > >Anyway... it's talking about two characters- Colin and Lily. The > >song is about how Colin has his (dead) mother's eyes. And Margaret replied: > It's really weird you should mention this, I posted the same thought > on Sunday in message #78672. But the song's not about Colin, it's about Mary. It's when Neville Craven reveals he was also in love > with his brother Archibald's wife, Lily loved Archibald even though > Neville could not understand why, and how Mary has Lily's eyes. > > I'm working on a FILK :-) (assuming I can find a sound clip to post) > ~Margaret My (Brightly Woven's) reply: What a great catch everyone. The tone of the musical is very Harry Potter, I think, with ghosts creeping around everywhere and such. One additional detail, although the song _is_ about Mary, the niece, in the book it is the son, Colin, who has his dead mother's eyes. Looking forward to your filk, Margaret. It's always great to read them, especially when one knows the tune and can sing along (i Keep thinking I should get a copy of _1776_ so that I can enjoy those filks!!). Brightly Woven (a lurker and newbie poster) From rachnastar at yahoo.ca Thu Aug 28 23:44:38 2003 From: rachnastar at yahoo.ca (Rachna) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:44:38 -0000 Subject: prophecy/Firenze Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79126 I was just reading OP again and something caught my attention. (Harry, on Firenze's Divination Lesson, Ch 27, The Centaur and the Sneak, p.532 Canadian edition) "It was the most unusual lesson Harry had ever attended. They did indeed burn sage and mallowsweet there on the classroom floor, and Firenze told them to look for certain shapes and symbols in the pungent fumes, but he seemed perfectly unconcerned that not one of them could see any of the signs he described, telling them that humans were hardly ever good at this, that it took centaurs years and years to become competent, and finished by telling them that it was foolish to put too much faith in such things anyway because even centaurs sometimes read them wrongly. He was nothing like any human teacher Harry had ever had. His priority did not seem to be to teach them what he knew, but rather to impress upon them that nothing, not even centaurs' knowledge, was foolproof." The thing that really got me thinking was that a centaur (supposedly one of the wisest beings) tried to teach Harry that "nothing was foolproof" and that it was "foolish to put too much faith in [divination/fortune telling/etc]" in the same book that Harry finds out about the prophecy. If the prophecy was first in the book and then I read Firenze's warning, I would have questioned it. Since, she has written it so that it ends with the prophecy, you don't really question it. Anyway, the point of my long-winded ramble was that maybe the prophecy turns out to not be true and Rowling is just stringing us along. Rachna (who still doesn't completely believe her theory) From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 22:03:11 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:03:11 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungos ( was Re: Mimbulus Mimbletonia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79127 leb wrote: ". . . maybe Neville (the alternate chosen one -- another assumption which can make or break the theory) will use the wrappers - tokens of love from his mother - to in some way defeat LV. " I have thought that perhaps the wrapper was a favor, as a lady bestows upon a knight. hg From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 14:03:05 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:03:05 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus Mimbletonia (was Neville's wand) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79128 re: James Redmont's post, wondering if the old man was Neville's uncle. OoP quote: (p. 486 U.S. > > > version)...well let me quote: > > > > > > A very old, stooped wizard with a hearing trumpet had shuffled to > > > the front of the queue now. > > > "I'm here to see Broderick Bode!" he wheezed. > > > "Ward forty-nine, but I'm afraid you're wasting your time," said > > > the witch dismissively. "He's completely addled, you know, still > > > thinks he's a teapot....Next!" Richard responded with several ideas why the old man could not be Neville's uncle. I add that I believe it's Pettigrew. The hand wouldn't be able to transfigure into flesh, hence the hearing trumpet. "hg" From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 28 14:08:10 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:08:10 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungo's Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79129 Bboy wrote, regarding the gum wrappers: "This is a deliberate act on Mrs. Longbottom's part. But she is so limited in her abilities, so deep in the dense fog that surrounds her, that this is the best she can do to acknowledge that she knows who Neville is and that she cares for him very deeply. I think Neville understand this." Bboy also speculated that if Alice had managed to scrawl a rune on the wrapper, Hermione would be able to interpret her message, having studied runes. This was in reply to me pointing out that Luna is reading the Quibbler upside down on the train. My response: I agree that Neville feels that, no matter how "pointless" it is, it's still a gift. What I was getting at with Luna deciphering the runes was that a) she's a Ravenclaw and b) she's suspicious and c) she "reads into" things and d) she's a decoder. Since we have no way of knowing if Alice scribbled anything at all onto the wrappers, which I doubt, we have to go with what we know is on the wrappers, until JK tells us otherwise. There are a lot of ways to anagram "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum..." "hg" From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Aug 29 01:33:35 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 18:33:35 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <45107940667.20030828183335@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 79130 Hi, Thursday, August 28, 2003, 6:04:29 PM, Jim wrote: > What Percy also is is the unredeemed Hermione. She was like him in > many ways when she arrived at Hogwarts, and she could have gone the > same way as him, but her friendship with Harry and Ron transformed her > more wonderfully than any of the other characters. Among the great > she is, and Percy must look at her and see in her the moral center and > courage that he lacks. I doubt very much that Hermione is registering prominently on Percy's radar at all, and he probably completely misses her 'greatness'. Especially since he isn't living with his family anymore, and doesn't hear Ron and Ginny talk about her much. Unfortunately, if you are a friend and sidekick to a "hero" like Harry, anything you do somehow gets forgotten or overshadowed by the great things the hero accomplishes. Hermione and Ron are in the same boat here, and probably Neville, Ginny and Luna, too, if they stay close to Harry. Apart from a few people at Hogwarts, all Hermione is known for in the WW is what Rita Skeeter wrote about her... Hermione is great at coming up with ideas, and solving mysteries, but usually fades into the background in the end, when Harry comes in and takes the glory ;) Percy may not ever want to have a thankless position like this. He seems to strive for personal power, not for helping other people to get there. I was very disappointed in Percy's attitude in book 5 and wonder where he is headed in the story. It's going to be hard for him to change course without losing face, and I think Percy may be too proud (and maybe too apprehensive of the treatment he'll be sure to receive from some family members), to just admit he was wrong. -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Fri Aug 29 01:48:50 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:48:50 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79131 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jim Ferer" wrote: > Susan:"[Will Percy apologize to his family?]This is a very interesting > question. ~snip~ > My money says Percy will come back. > > I actually think this was Percy's rebellion. Like Ron, he was > embarrassed at being poor and wanted to do better. Percy looked at > his eccentric father and saw Arhur holding back the whole family > because Arthur is his own man; so Percy decided he was going to go > along to get along ? and it seemed to work, for a while. > > Now Percy's having the wrongness of it stuffed down his throat. > Dumbledore and Harry, who he repudiated, and his own brother and > sister, from the family he rejected, have won a victory over the Dark > Side and disgraced the man he was sucking up to. They're heroes and > Percy's a lacky. Percy's not stupid, and he doesn't need a weatherman > to know which way the wind is blowing. But more important, I don't > think Percy's evil. > > What Percy also is is the unredeemed Hermione. She was like him in > many ways when she arrived at Hogwarts, and she could have gone the > same way as him, but her friendship with Harry and Ron transformed her > more wonderfully than any of the other characters. Among the great > she is, and Percy must look at her and see in her the moral center and > courage that he lacks. All his life he depended on higher authority > and all the rules he could find to guide his life, and it's stopped > working. It's got to be a really bleak feeling. > > But again, he's a Weasley, and I think that's what will save him in > the end. It's also likely to be his death. It wouldn't surprise me > to see Percy give himself up as part of his redemption. It might be > too conventional for JKR, but I think we will see Redeemed!Percy. > > Jim Ferer Well, I tried to snip... but, I've left most of your post Jim (good post by the way) I think that Percy *doesn't* like his family. I think that Percy, would have *Loved* to be an only child. I think that Percy has been looking for an excuce to drop his family for years. *And* I think Percy feels this way because *none* (except Molly) of his family respect him, listen to him, or even *like* him... and I don't think he likes them either. As soon as Percy had an excuse he bolted, and I don't think he is coming back. No one found cauldrin thickness interesting (gasp, those idiots! hisses Percy). And when Percy's father *DARED* to tell Percy the *truth*. Percy *exploded*! Why? Because here was Percy's *BIG* chance he was going to be higher up than his *own* father! His family *had* to respect him *NOW*... but nope Dad tells him the truth (lies hisses Percy!) and what happens? Percy runs away. Percy made his choices, just like Hermione made hers to be friends with Harry and Ron. The choice Harry made to be in Gryfondor and not slythern. The choice Sirius made to go to The MoM and help Harry... and to die, fighting evil. Our choices are what make us. And Percy made a *very* BIG choice in OOP. His father was at deaths door, and he never even sent a note. And I don't think that Molly is going to forget that one real quick. I think the one who is not going to accept Percy back *is* Molly. She loved him the most. The others just toloriated him becasue he was there brother... when and IF Percy ever came back... the rest of the family will shrug and say.. "Hi Percy, how ya been". And go on with their lives... but, I think that Molly is going to give him the cold sholder. And I think that *that* is what is going to *shock* Percy. But, I don't think that Percy is EVIL... he has just put himself somewhere that can never be the *same* again... even if he is a Weasly. Some things ya can never say "I'm sorry" enough to make relationships close again. Ta ta .. Tj From EnsTren at aol.com Fri Aug 29 01:55:26 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:55:26 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unforgiveable and dark magic Message-ID: <9c.349f6fd9.2c800c8e@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79132 In a message dated 8/28/2003 9:33:22 PM Eastern Daylight Time, carlpelleg at aol.com writes: > Cruciatus Curse - As this gives pain it could be used, in small doses, to > help interrogate a prisoner. Or it can help an individual learn to control > pain > in their body. Otherwise it could be used in an offensive capacity. (This is > > all I can think about this curse, if I can think of more reasons than I will > > post my thoughts.) I just recalled something I learned in psyc class to add onto this. There are children, and people, born mentally retarded, I think it's a form of autuism. And they hurt themselves. They try to rip out their eyes, bite off their lips, etc. Apprently it feels good to them. In certain studies...Well you all know about the rat experiment? They hooked up a rat's pleasure centers to wires so when it pushed a peddel it got plesently jolted and it eventually died because it didn't eat or sleep? Well they recently started doing the same thing to people like that, only the pain centers, and less invasive surgery. Guess what? It works. For some odd reason they like the pain they get from hurting themselves in specific ways, but not the ways that are caused by the electrodes. This is also used, again with no invasive surgery, more like jolts to the skin, on *babies*. Specifically ones that throw up. I'm not talking normal baby barfing, but every time they eat or drink they will (I use this word because they simply throw up, not shove their fingers down their throat) themselves to throw up. Typically this is thought to start to get attention. But they don't stop and end up dying from dehydration. Getting shocked stops them from doing this, because it's the only way to teach them in those circumstances. Replace electricity and surgery with a crucio and you have another few reasons. Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 01:59:18 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:59:18 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus Mimbletonia (was Neville's wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79133 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > > Richard responded with several ideas why the old man could not be > Neville's uncle. > > I add that I believe it's Pettigrew. The hand wouldn't be able to > transfigure into flesh, hence the hearing trumpet. > > "hg" Mlle: I'm a little confused on how the hearing trumpet would hide his hand. I would think it would make his hand more visible if he's holding a hearing trumpet. Am I missing something? From lziner at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 02:07:12 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:07:12 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79134 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: > > > > I totally agree with Richard about time flow. Most children know > > when Christmas and Easter occur (winter/spring). They know they > get > > time-off from school. It makes sense to them that the Hogwarts > > students would have this time off as well. > > > > On another point, look at the backlash created in some circles > about > > the books even with christian holidays. Imagine the uproar if JKR > > created/used pagan holidays. > > > > lziner > > > What backlash? Why would anyone object to the depiction of kids > celebrating Christmas. Unless they felt it was a kind of secular > Christmas but that just lumps Rowling in with modern culture so the > criticism wouldn't be only of Rowling. > > I would assume it would be fine either way. If she was using pagan > holidays, we would simply assume they are not Christian. That isn't > really a problem. It would be entirely natural to assume an insular > society would retain its own religion. > > By having Christmas and Easter (plus Halloween - it is the CHRISTIAN > version) even if just as time markers I assume that Christianity is > the dominant cultural/religious force within the WW. > > Merely a choice in flavour. Why would any object to Wizards having > their own religion? That seems to me like objecting to India being > majority Hindu. > > Golly Perhaps you misunderstood - Harry Potter books are the most banned books in the US. Certain religious sects feel they are about witchcraft etc promote santanism etc. I meant, to imagine if she added pagan holidays as well... mugglenet a few weeks ago posted a book burning involving Harry Potter books. My point was that by leaving Christian holidays in the books - JKR provides a counter- point (although unecessarily) to the belief that HP books promote witchcraft and evil. Bottom line - believe it or not some people object to these books. I was making the point that the uproar would be worse if Christian holidays were not mentioned. I still believe that the sole purpose of JKR including holidays are for time frame and familiarity (earlier post) lziner From purdom at critpath.org Fri Aug 29 01:49:35 2003 From: purdom at critpath.org (Barb) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:49:35 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79135 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dream_catcher3010" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I've been searching through the archives of both this and the OT > list to see if there had been any discussions about possible star > signs of the characters, but sadly without any luck. If anyone > does know of any and could direct me i'd be really grateful. > I would also like to suggest Neville as a contender for Taurus, > especially after his character development in OoP. Um, might I point out that the reason that Neville was considered another possible candidate for fulfilling the Prophecy (in OotP) was that he was born at the end of July? I rather got the impression from OotP that he had either the exact same birthday as Harry or very nearly so (perhaps July 30), since one could consider the end of July to be the last three or four days, if you look at the Prophecy with a little poetic license (or even more, depending upon just how poetic you want to get ). I doubt that the range would stretch back to Cancer territory, though. I think that it's most likely that Neville is a Leo, like Harry, and that they probably share a birthday. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From phoenixtears at fuse.net Fri Aug 29 02:23:02 2003 From: phoenixtears at fuse.net (phoenixmum) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:23:02 -0000 Subject: prophecy/Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79136 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachna" wrote: (paraphrase)that Firnze, in his Divination lesson, tells the students to not put too much faith in Divination/ prophecy. > If the prophecy was first in the book and then I read Firenze's > warning, I would have questioned it. Since, she (JKR) has written it so > that it ends with the prophecy, you don't really question it. > > Anyway, the point of my long-winded ramble was that maybe the > prophecy turns out to not be true and Rowling is just stringing us > along. reply: An interesting point. But I think it is the interpretation of the Trelawney's Prophecy regarding Voldemort and Harry that we should question. Dumbledore and Harry interpret it that Harry must be victim or murderer. Perhaps it is that Harry will be the cause of Voldemort's downfall, not by trying to kill him, but by protecting himself in such a way that Voldemort's attempt to kill Harry rebounds on Voldemort (similar to the dual at the end of GOF or the rebounding curse that gave Harry his forehead scar). There's a work of fanfiction called "After the End" on the Sugar Quill website that posits a protective spell for Harry that has this effect, a spell involving a pledge by several of Harry's friends to die protecting him, thus giving Harry the power(the love of friends) to defeat Voldemort(a power the Dark Lord knows not). Phoenix From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 29 02:27:05 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:27:05 -0000 Subject: prophecy/Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79137 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachna" wrote: > I was just reading OP again and something caught my attention. > > (Harry, on Firenze's Divination Lesson, Ch 27, The Centaur and the > Sneak, p.532 Canadian edition) > "It was the most unusual lesson Harry had ever attended. They did > indeed burn sage and mallowsweet there on the classroom floor, and > Firenze told them to look for certain shapes and symbols in the > pungent fumes, but he seemed perfectly unconcerned that not one of > them could see any of the signs he described, telling them that > humans were hardly ever good at this, that it took centaurs years > and years to become competent, and finished by telling them that it > was foolish to put too much faith in such things anyway because even > centaurs sometimes read them wrongly. He was nothing like any human > teacher Harry had ever had. His priority did not seem to be to > teach them what he knew, but rather to impress upon them that > nothing, not even centaurs' knowledge, was foolproof." > > The thing that really got me thinking was that a centaur (supposedly > one of the wisest beings) tried to teach Harry that "nothing was > foolproof" and that it was "foolish to put too much faith in > [divination/fortune telling/etc]" in the same book that Harry finds > out about the prophecy. > > If the prophecy was first in the book and then I read Firenze's > warning, I would have questioned it. Since, she has written it so > that it ends with the prophecy, you don't really question it. > > Anyway, the point of my long-winded ramble was that maybe the > prophecy turns out to not be true and Rowling is just stringing us > along. > > Rachna (who still doesn't completely believe her theory) You do have something to think about! I don't know if you also picked up on the bit of Mars being bright both during the first class that Firenze did and also in SS/PS when Harry is saved by Firenze. When Hagrid was talking to Bane and Ronan right before Firenze came to Harry's rescue, all they would tell Hagrid was that Mars was bright tonight. Hmmmm. Susan From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 29 02:52:59 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:52:59 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79138 Susan wrote: > I like these theories a lot however a thought popped into my head. > Harry saw a small boy crying....what if....Ol man Snape was a > mudblood and the fight was because Severus had just gotten his owl to > go to Hogwarts? Maybe Ol man Snape didn't know he married a witch. > This type of violent reaction from his father would also make him > hate mudbloods. Its not like JK hasn't used this type of situation > before with Seamus (I beleive?). The fact that Harry saw Severus as > a "small" boy...well....they have now grown enough that they are all > surprised at how tiny the first years are and don't remember being > that small when they started. Just my rambling thoughts. > Susan Cindy replied: No, I still believe that Severus is a pureblood wizard. Again, he is too shrewd and cunning to call Lily a mudblood, and have the insult thrown back at him. Also, I believe that the parents of all the other Slytherin students would highly object to having a half-blood, or mudblood as head of Slytherin house - it would have to be someone that they, and the students could respect - someone who fits the Slytherin ideology perfectly. And before you coment about Voldemort being a half-blood - remember Bellatrix's reaction at the DoM. -Cindy (who stand firmly by her theory that Severus is a prueblood) From melclaros at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 02:54:18 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:54:18 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79139 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dream_catcher3010" I'd like to nominate Sirius (and to a lesser extent, possibly Snape > and Draco I think) as Scorpios. mel (starts for the sake of formality with IMHO): Snape is without a doubt a Scorpio. Look up Scorpio in *my* astrology book and there's his picture. Not only does he fit to a "T" the basic newspaper characteristics of the sign, but his character is undergoing the classic scorpio evolution from it's base form to it's ideal-the eagle you mention. And let us not forget that Scorpio is the most dead-sexy sign. Melpomene--who thinks what *really* happened at godric,s hollow on halloween was that the trick candles on severus' birthday cake exploded. From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 03:17:43 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:17:43 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: <45107940667.20030828183335@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79140 Suzanne:" Unfortunately, if you are a friend and sidekick to a "hero" like Harry, anything you do somehow gets forgotten or overshadowed by the great things the hero accomplishes. Hermione and Ron are in the same boat here, and probably Neville, Ginny and Luna, too, if they stay close to Harry." Ron might be a sidekick, but Hermione is much more than that. She is the one who prepares Harry for many of his challenges and the person who seems to know exactly what he needs, whether it's the DA or the Rita Skeeter interview. Fame is not important to her, although she seems the best able to handle it. As far as Neville, Ginny and Luna are concerned, they are loyal supporters. Their stories will be told someday when the history of the Second Voldemort War is written (by Hermione, probably). But this is about Percy. He does know about Hermione, and maybe understands her role better than we think. And he isn't as interested in personal power as he is in having the approval of others instead of being shuffled off into a corner like his dad was. Suzanne:" It's going to be hard for him to change course without losing face, and I think Percy may be too proud (and maybe too apprehensive of the treatment he'll be sure to receive from some family members), to just admit he was wrong." Fair point, but the reason I think Percy will overcome that is that, like an alcoholic, he's hit bottom and has nowhere else to go. He can't be more humiliated; the boss he sucked up to is completely disgraced. As much as the bottom has fallen out for Percy, he knows he'll be eventually accepted again at home. I wouldn't want to be in his shoes that first few days back at home. Jim Ferer From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 03:45:51 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 03:45:51 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Voldy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79141 Loony wrote: So in comparing HP and LV we automatically think `Oh well Harry must be related to G. Gryffindor'. WRONG! As much as I really, really like the `Harry is related to G. Gryffindor' theory I this it's wrong. However I do think that the `Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor' theory is completely on. That's the point IMO; in Slytherin blood matters, so the heir of Slytherin has got to be related by blood to S. Slytherin, even tainted blood (see below). But in Gryffindor it matters what you do, not who you are related to. So Harry can be the Heir of Gryffindor by exemplifying the qualities of G. Gryffindor himself. Tom replies: I see where you're going with this, and would tend to agree that Harry *is* a sort-of metaphorical Heir of Gryffindor. And like you, I do not prefer the theorizing that leads to conclusions that "Harry must be related to Godric Gryffindor." Nice wordplay, there! I wrote a TBAY a while back at #67141 taking this viewpoint - as far as I can see, Heir of Gryffindor is out the window now. The prophecy has completely nullified its relevance, as far as I'm concerned. Loony wrote: Since we're talking about LV being the Heir of Slytherin there's something else that's bothering me. `How did Voldy's mom hook up with a muggle when she's supposed to be from this notorious muggle hating family'. Tom replies: We-ell, we don't really know that Voldemort's mom was from a muggle- hating family, much less that the family was notorious. We just know that Slytherin's blood ran down to Tom through her side. There is also an interesting distinction to be made regarding all of this `Heir' stuff, and that is this: An `Heir' is not the same thing as a `descendent.' In other words, being related to Salazar Slytherin doesn't automatically make you the `Heir of Slytherin' except in the loosest terms of lineage. Yes, Tom Riddle's mother was descended from Slytherin, and from what we know about Slytherin's Heir, the Chamber of Secrets could not be found (or, supposedly, opened) by any but Slytherin's true `Heir.' In other words, we are never told that *she* was Slytherin's Heir, either. In this sense, `Heir' doesn't indicate simple relation. It indicates something more specific... almost a kind of quest-related- inheritance. After all, we know that the only way to open the Chamber is through speaking Parseltongue, and it's not a foregone conclusion that all of Slytherin's descendents would be able to speak Parseltongue. Therefore the true 'Heir' of Salazar Slytherin's noble work would have to possess this particular skill. Loony wrote: It works too that his family wouldn't want him, half blood scum that he is, and would ship him off to a muggle orphanage. Tom replies: We also don't know anything about this lady's family... for all we know, she had no family. We do know that Riddle's family didn't want anything to do with her or her baby, and that ultimately she decided to leave the baby at a *muggle* orphanage - which also sort-of begs the question of whether or not the WW has wizard-orphanages, as well. I do concur with your argument for Riddle's being sorted into Slytherin house, though. Not only was he a descendent of Slytherin, but he also could speak Parseltongue, and probably (like Harry) had a thirst to prove himself - all qualities that Slytherin would have appreciated. -Tom From siskiou at earthlink.net Fri Aug 29 03:49:14 2003 From: siskiou at earthlink.net (Susanne) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:49:14 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <164116077883.20030828204914@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 79142 Hi, Thursday, August 28, 2003, 8:17:43 PM, Jim wrote: > Ron might be a sidekick, but Hermione is much more than that. That's your opinion, but I see Ron and Hermione both as sidekicks. But that's a different discussion ;) > But this is about Percy. He does know about Hermione, and maybe > understands her role better than we think. And he isn't as interested > in personal power as he is in having the approval of others instead of > being shuffled off into a corner like his dad was. I think it's some of both. And while Percy knows about Hermione, I'm not sure if he considers her role very much, or compares it to his own. Since canon doesn't tell us anything about this, I guess all we can do is speculate... I do wish we'd get more insights into other peoples' feelings and motivations in the HP universe! > I wouldn't want to be in his shoes that first few days back at home. I'd hate to be in his shoes, and I'm not sure he'd just be welcomed back and completely forgiven by all within a few days. And don't have enough insight in Percy to speculate how he would feel about this himself. Would he feel guilty and blame himself, or would he shift the blame to others and consider himself in the right, or just unlucky? Did he really believe Voldemort wasn't back, or is there more to his choice of allegiance... -- Best regards, Susanne mailto:siskiou at earthlink.net Visit our two pet bunnies: http://home.earthlink.net/~siskiou/ From Sunnylove0 at aol.com Fri Aug 29 04:09:56 2003 From: Sunnylove0 at aol.com (Sunnylove0 at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:09:56 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Thoughts about Voldy Message-ID: <164.24f9ef67.2c802c14@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79143 In a message dated 8/28/2003 9:47:53 PM Mountain Standard Time, thomasmwall at yahoo.com writes: > > Loony wrote: > It works too that his family wouldn't want him, half blood scum that > he is, and would ship him off to a muggle orphanage. > > Tom replies: > We also don't know anything about this lady's family... for all we > know, she had no family. We do know that Riddle's family didn't want > anything to do with her or her baby, and that ultimately she decided > to leave the baby at a *muggle* orphanage - which also sort-of begs > the question of whether or not the WW has wizard-orphanages, as well. > Hmm. In COS, Riddle tells us that the orphanage told him that his mother lived long enough to give birth to him and name him. If she had no one but Muggles around her when she died, it may have not been her choice. ( One wonders if she had a wizard present, especially a healer, he might have been able to save her. Why would a witch die in childbirth anyway, is my question.) Or he might have been taken to his father at her death, who sent him to the orphanage out of fear. Only Voldemort can tell us, and he should probably be taken with several tons of NaCl anyway. > I do concur with your argument for Riddle's being sorted into > Slytherin house, though. Not only was he a descendent of Slytherin, > but he also could speak Parseltongue, and probably (like Harry) had > a thirst to prove himself - all qualities that Slytherin would have > appreciated. > > -Tom > Hagrid does state in PS/SS that TMR/LV was sorted into Slytherin, and since he went to school with him ( and was screwed over by him ) he probably knows. The Queen Of Serpents [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 04:14:14 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:14:14 -0000 Subject: Cornelius Fudge cannot be a Death Eater (WAS: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79144 Severus:" I have pulled our findings and it seems, astonishingly, that Fudge is in leagues with LV." Tom replies: Having given the whole thread (and I'm amazed that it's had such longevity,) a cursory read, I first want to applaud your apt defenses against all the comers thus far. BUT - since I haven't noticed my favorite objection to this line of thought yet in this particular thread, I decided to chime in. This is the way I see it: Cornelius Fudge, Severus Snape, Ludo Bagman, and Molly Weasley (who has been accused, if you can believe it,) not to mention all other staff members mentioned as present at the Third Task, (such as McGonagall, Sprout, Flitwick, and Hagrid) CAN NOT be Death Eaters. I base this on a simple fact: they were either present during the Triwizard Tournament, or else (as in the case of Snape ? who is conspicuously absent prior to the Third Task) were present almost immediately upon Harry's return to Hogwarts via the Cup-Portkey. Since we all know that it is an impossibility to Apparate OR Disapparate on the Hogwarts grounds, we must logically conclude that Fudge, Snape, Bagman and Molly (in particular,) and the other mentioned staff (in general) were not (and could not be) present in the Graveyard, due to this all-important constriction. As such, these people cannot be Death Eaters, since they did not respond to the summons ? and we have absolutely no indication to suggest that Voldemort accommodated anyone with special arrangements in this regard. Oh, that, and Voldemort did mention that his one most faithful Death Eater was at Hogwarts already; subsequent correlation of this with Barty Crouch Jr.'s account pretty much settles that problem. There was one faithful servant at Hogwarts, and that was Barty Crouch. Of course, I exempt Karkaroff from all of this, since (according to Snape) he fled when the mark burned, and for all we know he fled right off the grounds and then Apparated directly to the graveyard. So, whereas I'd be inclined to believe that it's possible Karkaroff is *not* the person referred to as the (paraphrased) "one too cowardly to return," I don't believe that we can successfully argue that there were other Death Eaters present at the Tournament. Jim Ferer (in response to Severus' post): I don't agree, partly because I don't see any convincing evidence of it, but mostly because Fudge plays an important thematic role and gives JKR the opportunity to make an important point. Tom replies: I tend to agree with this perspective, and believe that Fudge is JKR's own attempt at painting a picture of political corruption. I also think that this theme, which was expounded upon so greatly in OoP, was intentional, and designed not to make us question Fudge's allegiances. Rather, it was intended to make us understand once again the nuanced viewpoint that the world is comprised of various moral positions, shades of gray, if you will, and that not everything is black and white. Thus, while Fudge is a difficult obstructionist to the truth, he's not actually a Death Eater. -Tom From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 04:47:15 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 04:47:15 -0000 Subject: It's A Scandal! He's Underage! (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79145 It's A Scandal! He's Underage! (GoF, Chap. 17-18) The fifth A!Kedavra Filk to the tune of It's A Scandal! It's An Outrage! from Rodgers and Hammerstein's Oklahoma! Dedicated to Melody THE SCENE: A room adjacent to the Great Hall, immediately after the Goblet of Fire ceremonies. The anti-Potter forces are in high dudgeon over Dumbledore's decision to let Harry compete in the TriWiz games. The song begins with the quartet of MADAM MAXIME, FLEUR DELACOUR, IGOR KARKAROF & SEVERUS SNAPE furiously pacing the floor. MAXIME: Betrayed! FLEUR: Deceived! KARKAROF: Bamboozled! SNAPE (imploring the silent heavens): Curses! MAXIME (music, to the reader): So, what's on our minds? Why do we pace Around and around With our wands All misaligned And our chins scrapin' our gowns? KARKAROFF (spoken) Several days ago we all went overseas Boarding our ship `cross the ocean mild Ev'ryone laughin', ev'ryone smiled: For the Tri-Wiz Match! Several hours ago I was so very pleased! Our three schools together to contend Just strutting my stuff, seeing old ? uh - friends Hey, I'm a happy Wiz (music) I'm doing Durmstrang business like I oughter Cheerin' for our champion Viktor Krum But there's this name, a certain Harry Potter And then: the odds against us change to three to one SNAPE: It's enough to make a Potions Prof resign One more Potter, like his father, crossing lines (Enter CHORUS OF DURMSTRANG & BEAUXBATON STUDENTS) MAXIME, FLEUR, KARKAROFF, SNAPE & CHORUS It's scandal! He's underage! But Dumble's going to let him still play! CROUCH SR. & BAGMAN Although you want him off the TriWiz game There's this binding magic contract >From our Goblet of Flame. MAXIME, FLEUR, KARKAROFF & CHORUS It's a scandal! He's underage! At the apple, Hogwarts will bite twice Dumbly's age restriction line did not serve to repel That horrid little Potter boy who's slick as hell It's a scandal! He's underage! Don't let little boys compete! We must revive the old traditions And plan unceasingly to cheat! MAXIME: Not me! KARKAROFF: Me too! BAGMAN (aside) Don't say that here! SNAPE It's scandal! Daddy's image! Just a day in the life of that berk Ego trip for that drip breaking every rule Who for just a thousand galleons is selling out our school MOODY It's a scandal! I take umbrage! Harry Potter could not this deed do. Dark forces prowling everywhere and evil plots they build The goal that they are working on is getting Potter killed (Enter DRACO and a CHORUS OF SLYTHERIN, HUFFLEPUFF & RAVENCLAW students) DRACO (passing out badges) It's a scandal! So wear our badge! Cedric playin' the Slavs and the French It's time we made some retribution Against Harry and his foul stench DRACO "Potter Stinks" badges, ah! MAXIME, FLEUR, KARKAROFF, SNAPE & BOTH CHORUSES "Potter Stinks" badges, ah! DRACO C'mon, ah! MAXIME, FLEUR, KARKAROFF, SNAPE & BOTH CHORUSES Ah! DRACO Ah! MAXIME, FLEUR, KARKAROFF, SNAPE & BOTH CHORUSES Ah! DRACO Retribution! MAXIME, FLEUR, KARKAROFF, SNAPE & BOTH CHORUSES Retribution! It's a challenge we must face We gotta make a resolution That Potter will be in disgrace! It's a scandal, he's underage! Once more Potter's way off track DRACO Look there he is! ALL (to HARRY): We've got the answer Just go away and don't come back! - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm From urghiggi at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 05:08:26 2003 From: urghiggi at yahoo.com (urghiggi) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:08:26 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Voldy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79146 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > > There is also an interesting distinction to be made regarding all of > this `Heir' stuff, and that is this: > An `Heir' is not the same thing as a `descendent.' > > In other words, being related to Salazar Slytherin doesn't > automatically make you the `Heir of Slytherin' except in the loosest > terms of lineage. Yes, Tom Riddle's mother was descended from > Slytherin, and from what we know about Slytherin's Heir, the Chamber > of Secrets could not be found (or, supposedly, opened) by any but > Slytherin's true `Heir.' In other words, we are never told that > *she* was Slytherin's Heir, either. > > In this sense, `Heir' doesn't indicate simple relation. It indicates > something more specific... almost a kind of quest-related- > inheritance. After all, we know that the only way to open the > Chamber is through speaking Parseltongue, and it's not a foregone > conclusion that all of Slytherin's descendents would be able to > speak Parseltongue. Therefore the true 'Heir' of Salazar Slytherin's > noble work would have to possess this particular skill. > >> Good on ya, Tom. So do I gather that you're saying that LV IS the 'heir' as well as the 'descendant' of Salazar Slytherin? (Since there is that pesky interview by JKR confirming that 'descendant' IS what she meant to write in CoS, not 'ancestor'?) I sure don't see any other viable candidates out there for either honor. urghiggi, Chgo From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 05:27:29 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 05:27:29 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79147 Cindy: >If all pureblood families are interrelated, it is very possible that >Severus is somehow related to the Malfoy's. I really believe that >Severus and Phineas are closely related. They look the same, behave >the same and use the exact same language and words, phrases and >tones. >I also think that it is very possible that the man with sallow-skin >in St Mungo's could be Severus's father, and that Severus might have >even caused the irreversible spell damage - perhaps whilst >protecting him self, or his mother. > all Severus fans visit http://www.designerpotions.com/ss I really like the theory that Snape and Phineas are related, I'm very fond of both of them. The only thing I don't like about it is that it would mean Snape was related to Sirius, and I don't like Sirius. The sallow skinned man on the closed ward is probably not Snape's father, since it was Broderick Bode, the man who tried to get into the DOM. (OoP pg 511 US hardcover) "A sallow-skinned, mournful-looking wizard lay in the bed opposite, staring at the ceiling; he was mumbling to himself and seemed quite unaware of anything around him." (Oop pg 512 US hardcover) "And look Broderick, you've been sent a potted plant and a lovely calander with a different fancy hippogriff for each month, they'll brighten things up, won't they?" said the Healer, bustling along to the mumbling man. ~Margaret From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 29 06:18:00 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:18:00 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79148 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" wrote: > Percy made his choices, just like Hermione made hers to be friends > with Harry and Ron. The choice Harry made to be in Gryfondor and not > slythern. The choice Sirius made to go to The MoM and help Harry... > and to die, fighting evil. Our choices are what make us. And Percy > made a *very* BIG choice in OOP. His father was at deaths door, and > he never even sent a note. I think this, more than anything else, shows the direction that Percy is going. It is interesting how the poverty and low status of the family affects each of the children in a different - but profound way. Fred and George want to make tons of money selling jokes, Ron dreams of glory., etc. Percy wants to distinguish himself in the eyes of the person (or persons) he views as being at the top of the hierarchy. I think that Fudge's days as minister of magic are numbered. The whole situation seems to be modeled somewhat on the two world wars, where Fudge is very much a Chamberleign (sp?) type person. He is going to be kicked out of office and replaced by no other than ... Arthur Weasley. Not only is Arthur the best choice for the job, there is also a prediction to that effect - when Ron says that "We have as much chance at winning the Quidditch Cup as my dad has at becoming the minister of magic" (paraphrased). We all know what happened to the Cup, So... :-) I find it hard to believe that Percy will be able to handle such a reversal of fortunes well. He will not suddenly begin to suck up to his father. He has also shown admiration towards the most ruthless and immoral officials in the MoM (Fudge, Crouch, Umbridge). The next logical choice for him would therefore be Voldemort. So I am afraid that we'll see Percy going even farther towards the evil path. I don't know if he'll go far enough to become a death eater. I have a feeling he'll try to turn around at some point, but that he will then be killed by one of the authority figures he so admires (Voldemort or one of the top DE's). He may have a chance to redeem himself before he dies, but in these kinds of dramas, those who refuse to make a moral choice tend to be ground between the opposing sides. > But, I don't think that Percy is EVIL... he has just put himself > somewhere that can never be the *same* again... Yup, somewhat like Sirius Black's brother. The main argument against Percy turning bad is that he was in Gryffindor and that he comes from such a decent family. But even the best homes can produce evil sometimes. Just like in the case of Sirius Black, he managed to overcome his upbringing and turn to the good side, it is possible for Percy to overcome his good upbringing and turn bad. Salit From Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com Fri Aug 29 06:43:21 2003 From: Arcum_Dagsson at celticwind.zzn.com (arcum42) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 06:43:21 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79149 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "quigonginger" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" > wrote: (snip) > > --Arcum, who is also left-handed (and, in Ginger's opinion, > brilliant for coming up with this plus what I snipped) > Thanks! > > Talk about negative stereotyping! :) > > You had also mentioned Neville as a possibility. Maybe that's how LV > will meet his fall. Ambidexterious Neville will have two wands, and > will keep LV busy so Harry can blast him into smithereens! > > Ginger, who feels *so* much better being connected with a traitorous > rat. <----sarcasm Well, I originally thought it was Peter *and* Lupin. I noticed the bit with Lupins right arm being chained to Peters left arm when I was checking on Peter and thought , and he seemed made for the part. (A left handed werewolf seems appropriate, somehow.) Then I notice this little part in OoP where he sticks his *right* hand out to summon the Knight Bus, and I'm forced to assume that not only did he forget about the full moon, he also chained his wand hand to Peter, leaving himself defenseless if Peter did try to escape. I'm pretty much left with either Majorly Irresponsible!Lupin, ESE!Lupin, or, to give him the benefit of the doubt, Ambidexterous!Lupin. Of course, it could be a Flint... --Arcum From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 07:38:24 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:38:24 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius/Snuffle, Dementors (was Re: FUDGE IS A DE!!!!) In-Reply-To: <2b.46a6a689.2c7e59cf@aol.com> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030828233337.00a66f28@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 79150 At 03:00 PM 8/27/2003 -0400, Batchevra at aol.com wrote: >Batchevra: > > I just snipped this part to make an observation. Before the >Dementors show up at the Quidditch match in POA, Harry sees a black >dog way up in the stands watching the match. (Page 133, POA Uk) Could >it be that the Dementors sensed Sirius Black up in the stands? and >were facing up because of that? Just another thought to ponder. > > > >Fran: > > Sirius did use Snuffles to get out of Azkaban so its unlikely. I > > dont think the dementors can detect Sirius when changes into a dog. > > >POA, Pg. 272 uk. Sirius says, "I could transform in my cell... become a dog. >Dementors can't see, you know..." he swallowed. " They feel their way towards >people by sensing their emotions... they could tell that my feelings were >less-less human, less complex when I was a dog..." > >That says to me that the Dementors could feel Sirius when he was a dog and >that they could have sensed him in the Quidditch stadium. I'm still 80 messages behind, so this may have been brought up, but Sirius was in dog form when he left Harry and Hermy, yet the dementors were able to find him because of his intense emotion even in dog form (OK so the 'because' part is complete speculation). If he were getting excited about seeing Harry play quidditch and remembering James...it *could* have been what attracted the dementors, but I'd put my money on the reason given in the book...emotions were too high for the dementors to resist going in for a little snack.... From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 07:55:10 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:55:10 -0800 Subject: Swedish Cockatrice (was Dumbledore's age..and a lot of other things) In-Reply-To: References: <003401c36c63$38126e80$0ca3dccf@raven> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030828234227.00afd5c8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 79151 At 07:29 PM 8/27/2003 +0000, evangelina839 wrote: >OK - now that I know what the books *originally* said, it feels safe to >add this. In the >Swedish translation, the word order was a bit different, pretty much >saying that it was >the three *champions* that were injured, and not the judges. But that >could be a >mistake on the translator's part; in fact, it also says that the champions >were >supposed to catch a basilisk. (I have no way of checking what a cockatrice >could be in >Swedish, but if I'm not totally crazy the basilisk is a basilisk in both >languages, right?) >Thanks for the quote, Maris. I found this interesting, so I actually looked up the words Cockatrice (Latin in origin): a legendary serpent that is hatched by a reptile from a cock's egg and that has a deadly glance Basilisk (Greek in origin): a legendary reptile with fatal breath and glance I found many references to them being the same thing. I'm just wondering why DD wasn't aware that it was a basilisk running around Hogwarts in CoS. I had always assumed that it was a very ancient animal that hadn't been seen for centuries. It also seems odd to me that a basilisk would have been one of the tri-wizard tasks. From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 08:07:14 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:07:14 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79152 > I would also like to suggest Neville as a contender for Taurus, > especially after his character development in OoP. Taureans often > portray characteristics of extreme determination and stregth of will. > They will willingly and loyally follow a leader who they trust They > are stable, balanced, and lovers of peace. They are faithful and > generous. In the main Taureans are gentle, even-tempered,good- natured > and slow to anger. If they are provoked however, they can explode > into violent outbursts. I think this is very much like Neville and he > was the first person I thought of when I read this description (taken > from The Practical Astrologer - David Christie-Murray). > > I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on the characters star signs, of > course including those I haven't mentioned. Hope i'm not going over > old ground or rambled to much. Also, sorry to the mods if this should > be on the OT list, I wasn't sure. > > Regards, > Rachel Hi, Just one point - we know Neville's a Leo, as he could be the subject of the prophecy (born as the xefenth month dies...) - if that'll help, or hinder your theories! Also, may i say I like Rons birthday being on March 1, as that's the National St David's Day for Wales - and as JKR gre wup just within the Welsh borders - nice touch (whether she meant it or not!) From xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 29 08:22:18 2003 From: xpectopatronum at yahoo.com.au (Cindy) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:22:18 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79153 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "princesspeaette" wrote: > Cindy: > >If all pureblood families are interrelated, it is very possible that > >Severus is somehow related to the Malfoy's. I really believe that > >Severus and Phineas are closely related. They look the same, behave > >the same and use the exact same language and words, phrases and > >tones. > >I also think that it is very possible that the man with sallow- skin > >in St Mungo's could be Severus's father, and that Severus might have > >even caused the irreversible spell damage - perhaps whilst > >protecting him self, or his mother. > > all Severus fans visit http://www.designerpotions.com/ss > > > > > > > I really like the theory that Snape and Phineas are related, I'm very > fond of both of them. The only thing I don't like about it is that > it would mean Snape was related to Sirius, and I don't like Sirius. > > > The sallow skinned man on the closed ward is probably not Snape's > father, since it was Broderick Bode, the man who tried to get into > the DOM. > > (OoP pg 511 US hardcover) > "A sallow-skinned, mournful-looking wizard lay in the bed opposite, > staring at the ceiling; he was mumbling to himself and seemed quite > unaware of anything around him." > > (Oop pg 512 US hardcover) > "And look Broderick, you've been sent a potted plant and a lovely > calander with a different fancy hippogriff for each month, they'll > brighten things up, won't they?" said the Healer, bustling along to > the mumbling man. > > > ~Margaret Cindy replies: Oh! You are completely right about the mumbling man! Thanks for pointing that out, I can't believe I missed it. (Then again it was about 3 in the morning at the time, so I forgive myself). I am also very fond of both Severus and Phineas, and I also loathe Black. If all the pureblood families are interrelated, i'm afraid there is no escape for Severus - somewhere along the line he must be related to the Blacks. But I wonder how far away from the Malfoy's he is, seeing as him and Lucius are so close. -Cindy From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Aug 29 08:22:07 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:22:07 -0000 Subject: Wrappers and SILK GOWNS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79154 A lot of interesting posts have been made about the incapacity of the Longbottoms and the significance of the gum wrappers. Instead of replying to the different threads I'll try to add some together and include my own ideas about these issues. So here goes! RSFJenny has presented us with SILK GOWNS (post 77145), theorizing that the Longbottoms continue to be insane because of Droobles Best Blowing Gum. I believe this also, so are happy to come aboard. Following on this, a discussion has evolved about the significance of the wrappers. Bboy_mn (post 79023) remarked that the Longbottoms are too limited in their abilities to express awareness of Neville (and their love for him) other then by giving those gum wrappers to him. I agree with that, expecially the fact that the Longbottoms are so incapacitated that they can only function at a very low level. In the same post it was also suggested that there might be some scratching on the wrappers which contain a message. Possible, but I believe that if the Longbottoms are so incapacitated, that even such a simple message is beyond their abilities. But I still believe that there is significance in the wrappers and the gum. Brief Chronicles mentioned in her reply to bboy_mn (post 79028), why so much gum? And that is what I think is the significance of the wrappers, not the wrapper itself but the amount of wrappers that Neville has gotten throughout the years. As grandma points out: "Neville, put the wrapper in the bin, she must have given you enough of them to paper your bedroom by now." (OOtP, pg 455, UK pb ed.). Well, that's a lot of wrappers when you come to think of it. Up until Neville becomes 11, he can often visit St. Mungo's. Once he starts attending Hogwarts, he can visit his parents less often. And gum wrappers are not large. So, yep, the Longbottoms receive a lot of gum one way or the other, and that in itself is suspicious. In addition to this I would like to mention that I think that the gum is used in a symbolic way by JKR. What does good sticky bubblegum do ? Shut your mouth so you are not able to speak. And that is still the case with the Longbottoms. They are not able to speak. Lilian, now going out to buy a silk (night) gown. From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Aug 29 09:15:49 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:15:49 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79155 > Cindy replies: > > Oh! You are completely right about the mumbling man! Thanks for > pointing that out, I can't believe I missed it. (Then again it was > about 3 in the morning at the time, so I forgive myself). > I am also very fond of both Severus and Phineas, and I also loathe > Black. > If all the pureblood families are interrelated, i'm afraid there is > no escape for Severus - somewhere along the line he must be related > to the Blacks. But I wonder how far away from the Malfoy's he is, > seeing as him and Lucius are so close. > To which I reply: If you look at the original start of this thread by Evangelina839 and my reply to it, you can see how close (we think) Severus to Lucius can be (either nephew-uncle, or nephew-nephew). And then Severus is at least related to the Blacks by marriage of Narcissa Black to uncle/nephew Lucius. Lilian From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Aug 29 09:25:52 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:25:52 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79156 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Cindy" wrote: > No, I still believe that Severus is a pureblood wizard. > Again, he is too shrewd and cunning to call Lily a mudblood, and have > the insult thrown back at him. > Also, I believe that the parents of all the other Slytherin students > would highly object to having a half-blood, or mudblood as head of > Slytherin house - it would have to be someone that they, and the > students could respect - someone who fits the Slytherin ideology > perfectly. And before you coment about Voldemort being a half-blood - > remember Bellatrix's reaction at the DoM. > > -Cindy (who stand firmly by her theory that Severus is a prueblood) Yeah, the fact that Snape calls Lily a mudblood is a good indication that h= e himself is pureblood, but I still don't think it rules out the possibility of his fath= er being a squib or muggleborn. I think having a "mudblood" that he hated in a parental posi= tion gives Snape a suitable motive for wanting to join the DEs ? and also leave them. = He realized he couldn't project the anger he felt for his father onto other people. As for halfblood!Snape being unfit for the Head of Slytherin position, I wo= nder if everyone's ancestry really is such a common knowledge. Draco calls Hermione= mudblood, but maybe he just made the effort to find out how pure her blood = was (however much I hate writing an expression like that), since she's a friend= of Harry's. I can't remember him ever calling another student specifically a mudblood. Th= e "you're next, mudbloods", or whatever the line was, in CoS doesn't count. :) My gue= ss is that's it's not such a tricky business to find out, and anyone who searches= , finds the answer. But I also think it was less easy when MWPP and Snape went to schoo= l ? wasn't that right at the start of LV's first era? Muggles and mudbloods get= ting attacked all over the place ? I'm sure a lot of people tried to hide or cha= nge their official family history. And obviously the Hogwarts students were less like= ly to discuss those matters at the dinner table, like Harry heard his peers do in PS/SS. Also, maybe having a squib for parent doesn't automatically mean that you a= re a halfblood. After all, all your grandparents could still be all witches and = wizards. evangelina (getting more and more comfortable in her own little camp) From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Aug 29 09:37:40 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:37:40 -0000 Subject: Black's family tree (was Re: Where Snape belongs on the family tree) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79157 > I'm so sorry for the major snip to a great post...moderators scare > me...Two things I'd like your input on. 1)All family members should > have a place on the tapestry up to the date of last updating which > might explain Tonks not being there...she was not born yet at the > last update. Even if they are disgraced, the mark of where they were > should still be there. I thought Sirius explained the marks to Harry > which were the disgraced family members. And Harry would definitely > have spotted Snapes name right off if it was on there. 2) Neville may > very well have seen Snape at St. Mungos even if it was only once. It > could be that Snape had some sort of an agreement with him not to > tell anyone. Could that be why he is so awful to Neville all the > time? Could he be afraid that Neville will spill the beans to Harry > since they are always near each other? To which I reply: 1) Both Evangelina839 and Potterfanme (and others) mention that Snape is not included in the tapestry of the Black family tree, but the Malfoys are. The only canon that we have that Lucius Malfoy is on it, because he married Sirius's niece Narcissa Black. Draco is on it because he is the son of Narcissa Black. This is the Black's family tree after all. Severus Snape is (in my theory and that of Evangelina839) related to Lucius Malfoy, (aunt or sister) so he would show up on the tapestry of the Malfoys, provided that they have one. But he does not show on the Black's tapestry as he is not related to the Blacks. In our theory he is related to the Blacks by marriage, namely that of Lucius to Narcissa, and that is too far removed to show on the Blacks family tree. 2) I'm not so sure about that. If someone was nasty to me to keep my mouth shut, I would sooner think 'what, keeping a secret for you! Forget it if you treat me like that!' and tell others. But ok, Neville is not me and he is sometimes, uh, intimidated enough by others. Lilian From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 29 09:43:10 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 09:43:10 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79158 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" > wrote: > > Percy made his choices, just like Hermione made hers to be friends > > with Harry and Ron. The choice Harry made to be in Gryfondor and > not > > slythern. The choice Sirius made to go to The MoM and help Harry... > > and to die, fighting evil. Our choices are what make us. And Percy > > made a *very* BIG choice in OOP. His father was at deaths door, and > > he never even sent a note. > > > So I am afraid that we'll see Percy going even farther towards the > evil path. I don't know if he'll go far enough to become a death > eater. I have a feeling he'll try to turn around at some point, > but that he will then be killed by one of the authority figures > he so admires (Voldemort or one of the top DE's). He may have > a chance to redeem himself before he dies, but in these kinds > of dramas, those who refuse to make a moral choice tend to be > ground between the opposing sides. > > > The main argument against Percy turning bad is that he was in > Gryffindor and that he comes from such a decent family. But even > the best homes can produce evil sometimes. Just like in the case > of Sirius Black, he managed to overcome his upbringing and turn > to the good side, it is possible for Percy to overcome his > good upbringing and turn bad. > > Salit The general concensus seems to be that Percy returns to the bosom of his family and that after a period of contrition and possibly, self justification, all is again sweetness and light. But there is a fair chance that Salit could be on the right track. There have been many postings on the parallels between characters and generations in the books. What if Percy has been cast as the opposite of Sirius? Baddy family produces offspring that repudiates their historical stance, then dies trying to do good. Percy, from a 'good' family, casts away their values and turns bad. It's a plot twist that could provide a very satisfying BANG at some point. A 'good' Slytherin has been posited before; why not a 'bad' Gryffindor? I'm not entirely convinced, but it's pencilled onto my possibles list. Kneasy From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 10:48:23 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 10:48:23 -0000 Subject: Will Prodigal Percy return? Was Percy question In-Reply-To: <164116077883.20030828204914@earthlink.net> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79159 Susanne:" I'd hate to be in his [Percy's] shoes, and I'm not sure he'd just be welcomed back and completely forgiven by all within a few days. And don't have enough insight in Percy to speculate how he would feel about this himself." Oh, he won't be. He might not try to come straight back to the Burrow, but approach the family from a distance, tentatively. I could see him seeking out Bill or Charley as an intermediary. We'll have to wait and see. JKR gives us as much insight into her characters as any author. Although we only get into Harry's head, we see a lot about how they respond to the extraordinary stimuli they're under. We've known Percy for five years now. What more can JKR do, publish his MMPI? Susanne:" Did he really believe Voldemort wasn't back, or is there more to his choice of allegiance..." Is Percy the latest closet Death Eater? I choose not to think so. I think he's got more Weasley in him than that. As far as whether he believed in Voldemort's return or not; if Fudge had said Voldemort was back, Percy would have said that. Voldemort isn't back, Percy's in line. There's a saying in the Army: "If we want you to have an opinion, we'll issue you one." That's our Percy. Jim Ferer From jferer at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 11:14:32 2003 From: jferer at yahoo.com (Jim Ferer) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:14:32 -0000 Subject: Harry the Chosen (was Thoughts about Voldy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79160 Tom Wall:" WRONG! As much as I really, really like the `Harry is related to G. Gryffindor' theory I this it's wrong. However I do think that the `Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor' theory is completely on. That's the point IMO; in Slytherin blood matters, so the heir of Slytherin has got to be related by blood to S. Slytherin, even tainted blood (see below). But in Gryffindor it matters what you do, not who you are related to. So Harry can be the Heir of Gryffindor by exemplifying the qualities of G. Gryffindor himself." Excellent! Your idea eliminates my objection to the Heir of Gryffindor theory, which was the same objection I had to the Heir of Slytherin theory, which was this: Clearly the wizard world is a small one. Bloodlines are very compacted, as Sirius explained in the family tree scene (just one example of how JKR is aware of what fans say and responds, but that's another topic), so in the ordinary course you'd expect to find descendants of Slytherin and Gryffindor all over the place, and it wouldn't surprise me to find people descended from all four founders. It would be like researching the family trees of the people who live in Newfoundland or something. Your idea, though, explains that perfectly, so Harry can be the true Heir of Gryffindor, the receiver of Gryffindor's sword. (to make the Arthurian analogy perfect, Harry would have had to go to the lake to get it). He's already gathering his knights, and has his Merlin too. Hmmm.. Tom:" as far as I can see, Heir of Gryffindor is out the window now. The prophecy has completely nullified its relevance, as far as I'm concerned." Not necessarily. Why was Harry the child foretold? Although Neville meets some of the prophecy's conditions, Voldemort marked Harry, fulfilling the rest. The prophecy may have been as much about the coming of the Heir as anything else, although I would agree you'd think Sybil would say this child was the Heir. Jim Ferer From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Aug 29 11:29:31 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:29:31 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree=85?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79161 > The Sergeant Majorette says > > This also gives Snape a better reason for bullying Neville than sheer > nastiness. He wants Neville to be too intimidated to ever mention > this connection to Snape, or feel close enough to him to sympathize > or feel sorry for him. > > Perfect indeed, giving Snape relatives and feelings! Now all that's > needed is to tie James into this somehow, like maybe James knows, or > even is related to, the elder Snape; maybe he tried to be nice to > Snape when they were younger and ran into such hostility that he > thought "Forget you! Suffer by yourself!" > > --JDR Great point! I can just picture it; Snape sitting on his mother's bedside and doing whatever he can to care for her, then suddenly -- ah! -- the Longbottom boy! Snape, of course, doesn't realise that Neville wouldn't want anyone to know that his parents are at St Mungo's and why, so it never enters his mind that Neville has his own reason not to run and tell. Heaven forbid anyone should find out something *personal* about Snape, right? Stop Neville with every available mean. Nice touch with James, too, except now that fallen hero is even nastier in my book. But it does wonders for my inclination to draw Snape-Harry comparisons -- they both have to break with their fathers. Harry asks himself if he's an arrogant prick for envying Prefect!Ron in the same book where he finds out that his own father may well have *been* an arrogant prick -- while Snape probably had some inner conflicts and was torn between, on the one hand, wanting to fight back against his father, and on the other desiring some fatherly love. So it took longer for him to realise he did not want to follow the violence path of his father's. evangelina, who, if ever she ran into Snape, would probably just lose it and give him a hug. (which would, of course, result in him forbidding her to ever come near him again) From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 11:28:22 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:28:22 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79162 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "vecseytj" > wrote: > > Percy made his choices, just like Hermione made hers to be friends > > with Harry and Ron. The choice Harry made to be in Gryfondor and > not > > slythern. The choice Sirius made to go to The MoM and help Harry... > > and to die, fighting evil. Our choices are what make us. And Percy > > made a *very* BIG choice in OOP. His father was at deaths door, and > > he never even sent a note. > > I think this, more than anything else, shows the direction that > Percy is going. It is interesting how the poverty and low status > of the family affects each of the children in a different - but > profound way. Fred and George want to make tons of money selling > jokes, Ron dreams of glory., etc. Percy wants to distinguish > himself in the eyes of the person (or persons) he views as being > at the top of the hierarchy. > > I think that Fudge's days as minister of magic are numbered. The > whole situation seems to be modeled somewhat on the two world wars, > where Fudge is very much a Chamberleign (sp?) type person. He is > going to be kicked out of office and replaced by no other than ... > Arthur Weasley. Not only is Arthur the best choice for the job, > there is also a prediction to that effect - when Ron says that > "We have as much chance at winning the Quidditch Cup as my dad > has at becoming the minister of magic" (paraphrased). We all know > what happened to the Cup, So... :-) > > I find it hard to believe that Percy will be able to handle such > a reversal of fortunes well. He will not suddenly begin to suck > up to his father. He has also shown admiration towards the most > ruthless and immoral officials in the MoM (Fudge, Crouch, Umbridge). > The next logical choice for him would therefore be Voldemort. > > So I am afraid that we'll see Percy going even farther towards the > evil path. I don't know if he'll go far enough to become a death > eater. I have a feeling he'll try to turn around at some point, > but that he will then be killed by one of the authority figures > he so admires (Voldemort or one of the top DE's). He may have > a chance to redeem himself before he dies, but in these kinds > of dramas, those who refuse to make a moral choice tend to be > ground between the opposing sides. > > > But, I don't think that Percy is EVIL... he has just put himself > > somewhere that can never be the *same* again... > > Yup, somewhat like Sirius Black's brother. > > The main argument against Percy turning bad is that he was in > Gryffindor and that he comes from such a decent family. But even > the best homes can produce evil sometimes. Just like in the case > of Sirius Black, he managed to overcome his upbringing and turn > to the good side, it is possible for Percy to overcome his > good upbringing and turn bad. > > Salit Originally I thought Percy would go back to the Weasley's and apologize but after re-reading COS I am not so sure. It's Ron who discovers the parallels between Percy and Tom Riddle. This could have been a clue to what happened in OOTP only. Right now I guess I am undecided because the emotionally me want's to see Percy back in with his family as this would make Molly and Arthur so happy. Fran From gromm at cards.lanck.net Fri Aug 29 11:40:21 2003 From: gromm at cards.lanck.net (Maria Gromova) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:40:21 +0400 Subject: Oops! Message-ID: <000d01c36e22$552f1c00$5642983e@rcomputer> No: HPFGUIDX 79163 Sorry, I'm always forgetting. This century is so young, after all! It still fellls so strange to me when someone calls the 20th century 'the past century'. But this makes the attitude of those priests worse still, doesn't it? Some of our Orthodox priests nevertheless hold to this attitude, sadly. But, as I said, I have my own judgment, and this is not going to sway me. Maria. From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Fri Aug 29 11:49:21 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:49:21 -0000 Subject: Swedish Cockatrice, and the basilisk as a Tri-Wizard task In-Reply-To: <5.2.1.1.2.20030828234227.00afd5c8@localhost> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79164 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth wrote: > I found this interesting, so I actually looked up the words > Cockatrice (Latin in origin): a legendary serpent that is hatched by a > reptile from a cock's egg and that has a deadly glance > > Basilisk (Greek in origin): a legendary reptile with fatal breath and > glance > > I found many references to them being the same thing. I'm just wondering > why DD wasn't aware that it was a basilisk running around Hogwarts in CoS. > I had always assumed that it was a very ancient animal that hadn't been > seen for centuries. It also seems odd to me that a basilisk would have been > one of the tri-wizard tasks. Thank you so much, Fred! I was beginning to think there was a serious mistake made in the translition here, especially since I too found it odd that they would put a basilisk as one of the tasks. My impression of it from CoS was that it was something more rare and extremely dangerous and that the Parseltongues of the world alone stood any chance of surviving an encounter with it. How exactly would they organise such a tri-wiz task? Certainly not like the dragons; imagine all the champions stepping out to face their surprise opponent and dropping dead one by one. Did they inform the champions that they would have to fight a basilisk, then put blindfolds on them before letting them begin the fight? Then, what, hand them swords? And how exactly did the basilisk injure the judges (or if it was the champions)? Maybe one reading-inclined champ conjured a rooster and that's how the basilisk "went on the rampage". ;) Also, was it common knowledge among all you English-speaking folk that a cockatrice and a basilisk were the same animal? This is more than a little bit confusing. evangelina From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 29 12:25:49 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:25:49 -0000 Subject: Thoughts about Voldy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79165 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > > In this sense, `Heir' doesn't indicate simple relation. It indicates > something more specific... almost a kind of quest-related- > inheritance. After all, we know that the only way to open the > Chamber is through speaking Parseltongue, and it's not a foregone > conclusion that all of Slytherin's descendents would be able to > speak Parseltongue. Therefore the true 'Heir' of Salazar Slytherin's > noble work would have to possess this particular skill. > Geoff: Canon disagrees with you here - "Haven't you guessed yet, Harry Potter?" said Riddle softly. "Ginny Weasley opened the Chamber of Secrets......" - presuming of course that Ginny isn't a Parselmouth. (COS "The Heir of Slytherin" chapter p.229 Bloomsbury UK edition) From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 29 12:55:32 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:55:32 -0000 Subject: Predestination (was Re: prophecy/Firenze) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79166 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Rachna" wrote: > The thing that really got me thinking was that a centaur (supposedly > one of the wisest beings) tried to teach Harry that "nothing was > foolproof" and that it was "foolish to put too much faith in > [divination/fortune telling/etc]" in the same book that Harry finds > out about the prophecy. > > If the prophecy was first in the book and then I read Firenze's > warning, I would have questioned it. Since, she has written it so > that it ends with the prophecy, you don't really question it. > > Anyway, the point of my long-winded ramble was that maybe the > prophecy turns out to not be true and Rowling is just stringing us > along. Jen: This brings up a major question I have about the prophecy: If one of the major themes in the HP series is about choice, then it doesn't follow that the *prophecy* is Harry's one and only destiny. If that's the case, then Harry's life is predestined and without choice, so what would be the point?!? I read the prophecy as a "probable outcome" of many possible outcomes that confront Harry. Dumbledore believes the prophecy has a strong probability of coming true, so he's been guiding Harry along this path for 15 years. But as DD discovers in OOTP, even a master plan can have flaws, and the fulfillment of the prophecy depends on Harry. If, as Firenze states, even centaurs can be wrong (and they have a much better grasp of "the stars"), then I think the prophecy may tells us more about Harry's past, and the expectations others have placed on him, than about what Harry ultimately decides is his *destiny*. Jen From aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au Fri Aug 29 13:22:33 2003 From: aussie_lol at yahoo.com.au (Hagrid) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:22:33 -0000 Subject: prophecy/Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79167 --- "Potterfanme" wrote: > You do have something to think about! I don't know if you also > picked up on the bit of Mars being bright both during the first class > that Firenze did and also in SS/PS when Harry is saved by Firenze. > When Hagrid was talking to Bane and Ronan right before Firenze came > to Harry's rescue, all they would tell Hagrid was that Mars was > bright tonight. Hmmmm. > Susan AAAAAAHHHHHhhhhhhh ... the HP series was set to finish in June 1999 - but MARS IS BRIGHT TONIGHT ! FOUR YEARS LATER ! Keep an eye out for the DE symbol lighting up above houses near you ... From mbush at lainc.com Fri Aug 29 13:28:12 2003 From: mbush at lainc.com (mtwelovett) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:28:12 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79168 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ffimiles" wrote: > Also, may i say I like Rons birthday being on March 1, as that's the > National St David's Day for Wales - and as JKR gre wup just within > the Welsh borders - nice touch (whether she meant it or not!) She may have meant it. JK has used Holidays as significant days throughout the books. Lots of things happen for her on Halloween, The Potters' death, the death of Nearly Headless Nick, the "troll in the dungeon", the attacking of the Fat Lady by Sirius Black...and there is something else I think, I'm currently trying to fill in some more thoughts on the "Lily/Runes" post/theory that I posted a week or so ago, but am not ready to do so yet, I do think there is something more to Halloween with that. But in "fact finding" have discovered too, that Harry's (and thus JK's) birthday is around the start of the Festival of Lughnasa, (Festival of the Harvest for the pagan god Lugh) (I just did this play, Dancing at Lughnasa and can't believe I didn't connect it then) The book I was looking at last night, had a different name for the actual "holiday" day which was listed as July 31. (since I wasn't expecting to post about it yet, I don't have the details with me at the moment)... But it is quite interesting that "holidays" are being chosen as significant days. Is there more to the specific ones than we might think at first glance? Mtwelovett From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 29 13:57:18 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:57:18 -0000 Subject: Prophecy problems (was Harry the Chosen) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79169 Jim Ferer quoted Tom Wall (lots of surnames on list today): >>> Tom:" as far as I can see, Heir of Gryffindor is out the window now. The prophecy has completely nullified its relevance, as far as I'm concerned.">>> and then continued himself: >> Not necessarily. Why was Harry the child foretold? Although Neville meets some of the prophecy's conditions, Voldemort marked Harry, fulfilling the rest. The prophecy may have been as much about the coming of the Heir as anything else, although I would agree you'd think Sybil would say this child was the Heir.>> Now I, Kirstini Pantalini (not really. I just felt left out)ponder: I'm with you up to a point, in that I agree that Harry as spiritual heir would be a far more satisfying way to approach the whole sordid business, and I certainly don't think that the prophecy proves anything finally. Don't forget, OoP still hasn't resolved the problem of why James had to die and Lily didn't. I still think there's *something* about those Potters. Remember, Sirius, who as best friend, member of the Order and potential Secret Keeper, would know about the prophecy, still says to Wormtail (something like) "Telling your master you can bring him the last of the Potters", not "the child in the prophecy" or just "Harry Potter". (at this point I have to pause, to beat down a nasty little part of my brain which tends to pipe up at times like this, saying things like, "I bet she switched the terms of the prophecy round in a fit of spite because everyone had guessed where she was going with it." It does this when any mention of MemoryCharmed!Neville comes up, too. I do apologise. It's all due to a peculiar strain of Listie Egotism that I caught some time ago.) So - the second part of my ponder - *would* Sybil necessarily know about it? What Firenze seems to tell his pupils is that human fortune- telling doesn't stem from any rational or comprehensive understanding of celestial plans or future events. The fact that Trelawny fails to remember her true prophecies as she makes them would suggest to me that the prophets themselves merely act as receivers for small pieces of information, randomly generated whenever the "force is strong" or the dust moves, or something along those lines. It's been suggested that Voldemort was on his guard because an initial prophecy had already been made, that otherwise he wouldn't have believed Trelawny's authority. Also, remember that DD controls the version of the prophecy that Harry hears, and all those pauses at least offer the possibility that what he shows Harry is edited. (It's terribly convinient that Harry is unable to hear the actual prophecy, and duly report it to the reader.) Personally, I've always felt a little suspicious about the fact that DD claims that the eavesdropper only heard the first part of the prophecy, that a boy who could defeat the Dark Lord would be born at the end of July, to parents who had thrice & etc, and yet at the point that DD says the eavesdropper was thrown out, *his* version of Sybill hasn't mentioned the child's sex. And how was he able to concentrate on what she was saying while a scuffle was breaking out? And who gave the order for the eavesdropper to be thrown out anyway? Did the barman (Aberforth Dumbledore. I'm telling you)say something like "I say! That chap's listening in to the prophecy that woman appears to be making about the coming hero who will vanquish the Dark Lord! We'd better get him out of here quick smart!" And how did DD know that there was an eavesdropper at all if that eavesdropper wasn't Snape? And why would Snape be all the way up in Scotland in the Hog's Head when DD was interviewing a totally unremarkable woman with no known gift for prophecy, and no track record of knowlege about Dark Lord vanquishing? (do you see what she's done? She's buried all my previous doubts under an avalanche of more interesting plot facets/gaping holes. The vixen.) No, I don't believe that the prophecy proves anything definate at all. And I don't trust that beardy fellow one little bit. Kirstini, eyeing you all suspiciously as her mind drips onto her shoes. From margdean at erols.com Fri Aug 29 14:32:39 2003 From: margdean at erols.com (margdean56) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:32:39 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79170 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "arcum42" wrote: > Well, I originally thought it was Peter *and* Lupin. I noticed the > bit with Lupins right arm being chained to Peters left arm when I > was checking on Peter and thought *chained* to Peters left, so he's bound to be holding his wand in > his left hand aimed at Peter, therefore he's left-handed>, and he > seemed made for the part. (A left handed werewolf seems appropriate, > somehow.) > > Then I notice this little part in OoP where he sticks his *right* > hand out to summon the Knight Bus, and I'm forced to assume that not > only did he forget about the full moon, he also chained his wand > hand to Peter, leaving himself defenseless if Peter did try to > escape. I'm pretty much left with either Majorly Irresponsible! > Lupin, ESE!Lupin, or, to give him the benefit of the doubt, > Ambidexterous!Lupin. Of course, it could be a Flint... If Peter =is= left-handed, surely the other Marauders would know that. Lupin may have considered it more important to immobilize =Peter's= usual wand hand than to leave his own free, and if he was going to walk next to him, manacled to him, he didn't have much choice if he wanted to bind Peter's left hand. Do we have any evidence on how much of a handicap it is to use a wand with one's off hand? --Margaret Dean From liliana at worldonline.nl Fri Aug 29 15:11:19 2003 From: liliana at worldonline.nl (laylalast) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:11:19 -0000 Subject: Snape in SILK GOWNS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79171 No, this is not about Severus Snape's grey laundry or clothing habits and possible underlying meaning, this is about the acronym SILK GOWNS. Since reading OotP I firmly believe that Snape is being set up to be seriously accused of being at the evil side for sure. For instance, after Harry's first occlumency lesson he has a dream in which LV is very, very happy. The next day the trio reads in the Daily Prophet that the DE's have escaped Azkaban. Ron's conclusion is that it is that event that makes LV so very happy. Later on, the suggestion is made by Ron (again) that Snape is in fact trying to open Harry's mind a bit more for LV, through those occlumency lessons. Attentive readers would now probably say: `Aha, JKR is leading us astray with the happy event for LV! It is not the DE's escape, but LV now gaining more access to Harry's mind, thanks to Snape.' In fact (IMO) neither event is what LV makes so happy, but the information that Kreacher gave to the Malfoys about the growing father/brother relation between Harry and Sirius, and which was at that moment passed on to LV. Only we learn this much, much later, in the chapter where DD tells Harry all that he should have told earlier. But the suggestion is made (by JKR): it is Snape's doing that makes LV so happy. Next the events leading to the `rescue mission' at the MoM (let me call it that) leave Snape in a suspicious position as well. To say, he is again a suspicious character as far as Harry is concerned. Another set up for a serious accusation in one of the books to come, again IMO. So, how do I think that this will work out? Well, after presenting my take or theory (whichever) on Snape being related to the Malfoys (see my post 79062) in which I gave my opinion that the Agnes in St. Mungo's is in fact his mother, I would like to add why I think this is useful, by making this theory connect to SILK GOWNS. In my reply to SILK GOWNS (post 79154) I agreed with the idea that the gum that the Longbottoms apparently receive in much abundance, contains something that keeps them incapacitated. Why couldn't this something be a potion? My theory is that the trio will somehow discover that Snape visits St. Mungo's. Perhaps through Neville, who has seen Snape there. As Harry, and Ron as well, are suspicious of him, they will connect this with the Longbottoms. Next they will begin to wonder about the gum and in some way discover that it has been tampered with. So, as Snape comes there regularly and he is a potion master, he used to be a DE, he is still around LV Oh, yes, a very neat accusation for Harry and Ron to make. I think that Hermione has difficulties believ. I even think that it is Lucius Malfoy's set up. That is why I suggested in my post 79062 that he pays the bill for Agnes' stay at St. Mungo's. Put Snape's mother in the same ward as the Longbottoms, use (or let someone else use ? a healer -) a potion to tamper with the gum and who is the most obvious suspect? Not Lucius, but Snape. Add his dubious past, his current connections to LV, the fact that Snape is indebted to Lucius and Snape will have a difficult time proving his innocence. And this adds another twist to the story, what will DD do with this? As DD has pointed out, more than once, he trusts Severus Snape. Will he continue to do so? I think he should. Some posters here have already said that DD's lenient behaviour with regard to the prank has been the `tipping over' moment for Snape to join LV's side. I believe that too, but feel that DD should now stick with Snape even if his trust wavers. Because if DD doesn't, Snape will feel being let down, again, and there is nothing that will stop him from joining LV really and for good. My take (well, everything I write here is my take off course, but you grasp my meaning) is that DD will stick with Snape. Leading to, at the end, a scene at DD's office, explaining Snape's real situation to Harry. Well, I leave my theory and its connections to others for the moment. Do I dare? Yes, I dare to take the liberty to add my own acronym to SILK GOWNS: Snape Soon Neatly Accused & Proven Evil in Suspiciously Insane Longbottoms, the Key is the Gum Or Wrappers, that Neville Saves So, we find S SNAPE in SILK GOWNS. Hm, I rather begin to wonder whether this theory needs to be taken to TBAY? Can't tell for sure, so leave that to others. Lilian, who secretly wonders if Snape will go rampant if he sees her in her just acquired grey silk night gown. Oops,.......wrong mode,.....that's fantasizing not theorizing. From ffionmiles at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 15:19:56 2003 From: ffionmiles at hotmail.com (ffimiles) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:19:56 -0000 Subject: significant dates (was characters' star signs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79172 > > She may have meant it. JK has used Holidays as significant days > throughout the books. Lots of things happen for her on Halloween, The > Potters' death, the death of Nearly Headless Nick, the "troll in the > dungeon", the attacking of the Fat Lady by Sirius Black...and there is > something else I think, I'm currently trying to fill in some more > thoughts on the "Lily/Runes" post/theory that I posted a week or so > ago, but am not ready to do so yet, I do think there is something more > to Halloween with that. But in "fact finding" have discovered too, > that Harry's (and thus JK's) birthday is around the start of the > Festival of Lughnasa, (Festival of the Harvest for the pagan god Lugh) I agree, there is something in Hallowe'en - more than it just being an easily-identifiable day for her to say 'something happened on this day', rather than using dates, or saying 'mid October'. It's obviously an important date in the witch/wizard world, though so far it's just been described as a day for fun/pumpkins etc - but d definately not a coincidance that it's the day on which Harry received his scar, and when he was (possibly) conceived. Other dates - Hermione's birthday? Other than being the same as my sister's...I can't think of anything happening in mid-September. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 29 15:45:46 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:45:46 -0000 Subject: Predictions at Madison Square Garden In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79173 Boyd the Remnant slam dunks a whacking great possible Book 6 plot synopsis out there, catching my attention as the livliest thing to occur on list since Captain Cindy was last seen in these parts . I'm with you on some of your points (do you prefer Boyd or Remnant?), namely goblin revolution, sacrificial Dumbledore making a big mistake, and LV thriving on chaos. But my trusty red pen is ever- ready, and something you said really did catch my eye, you foolish boy: >>I can also show through cannon that all of the above are continuations of existing themes and trends!>> Can you? Oh GOODY! Well, you can't just leave us hanging like that. I *love* existing themes and trends. Okay - GO! Pretend you're a highlighter pen. I want existing themes and trends identified for: >>> The marauding DE's drive Harry from his new home at Hogwarts, so he must now spend all his time with the completely frightening, gut- wrenching duo of Snape and Mad-Eye Moody! Yes, watch Harry as he twists in the wind, separated from his friends and mentors. Relegated to the company of two of the most inhospitable companions imaginable! >> Isolation I can identify, yes. All over OoP. Explain why Severus is taking time off from his valuable teaching duties, please. And Moody isn't such a bad candidate for mentorhood (sort of like a Dementor's hood, but not quite. Ha. Ha.), surely? Are you following some sort of pre-destined allegorical plan, or has this just occurred to you? I want more detailed explanation. Then we have: >> First, LV and the DE's must eliminate two or three key OoP members ambush-style. Sorry, Lupin lovers, but it's a fire sale and all powerful parent-types close to Harry must go! You, too, Arthur & Molly Weasley!>> You aren't just happy with Harry losing both natural parents, primary parent-guardian, and elderly mentor figure? I need more argument for why, please. I know loads of people think that Lupin and the Weasleys are going to be next for the chop, but I'm not entirely sure that any of those deaths will have a big enough effect on Harry apr? Sirius. Especially if you are killing off Ever So Fallible Dumbledore in the next book. >> Once Tonks joins their exciting trio, see Harry grow increasingly convinced that one of them is an agent of LV then incorrectly (as always) guess that it's Snape! >> so - Tonks, then? Oh no, maybe not: >>see Harry saved by Moody, Tonks or Shacklebolt>> Argh! Now you confuse me. And I want canonical theme for this too. >>and taken to a beautiful reunion with his SHIP-mate and two or three other close friends (all schoolmates, of course). Tears flow, Harry blames himself>> Ooh, what for? This sounds exciting. And aren't the schoolmates rather obviously Ron and Hermione? Or did you kill Ron off? >>and then vows to never let someone so close be taken from him again. So he disappears. End of book 6.>> Interesting. So you're identifying a break down in the the formal conventions of the series (Boy at house has birthday, leaves house, goes to Diagon Alley, gets on train, fights with Draco, gets off train, eats a big stodgy meal, trains for Quidditch, celebrates Halloween, plays Quidditch, signs a list saying he's staying at Hogwarts for Christmas, goes to Hogsmeade, plays more Quidditch, fights Snape, studies for exams, gets involved in huge denoumant, ends up in hospital ward, wins cup, gets on train, fights Draco, gets off train, leaves station)? I know that OoP went some way towards this, by removing the emphasis from Hogwarts (even by putting Luna in on the Hogwarts Express) and changing the real-time dates around slightly (book opens after Harry's birthday). Is this the sort of thing you were thinking of? I want proper canonically-backed thematic analysis of how each of these things you describe is going to come about. Show me the themes. Tease them out in lots of lovely detail. Wave them about under my nose until I. Get. The. Point, please. Kirstini Why is Madison Square Gardens in the subject line? From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 15:47:20 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:47:20 -0000 Subject: Accio (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79174 Accio (GOF Chap 20) The sixth A!Kedavra filk to the tune of I Can't Say No from Oklahoma! Dedicated to Frankie THE SCENE: The DADA office. MOODY gives HARRY a hint on how to compete in the First Task MOODY It ain't so much a question of not having any skill Your flying's real strong for your own team It's just like addin' two `n' two together, if you will, You need a charm that plays to your best theme So here's a simple answer to believe If you must face a dragon, you retrieve! (A lightbulb going off in his head, HARRY rushes to HERMIONE) HARRY I don't how to Accio I'm in a bind, that's for sure When it comes time to make things go Objects I cannot transfer Whether a light or heavy weight It's a spell that moves things from Point A to B But when I try to levitate I find my wand a-wavin' pointlessly This is a spell I do not know Here is a knack that I lack When dragons make their attack Broomsticks I cannot attract Through Accio. HERMIONE I can teach to you how you make stuff to travel Once our judges bang the gavel I can teach to you S'possin' that we find A classroom to practice Till ya learn it exact, is What we're gonna do. Surpassin', you've got it, Now you summon like me It's a-somethin' to see, it's great! I'm a-teachin' you what's a better way - Jus' relocate! (Segue to the next day, with HARRY and the other three champions waiting to be called) HARRY Hermy has learned me Accio She has got me in the groove For this first task, I sure hope though That my broom won't be unmoved Victor Krum, Ced and Delacour Are scheduled now to go ahead of me And I'd rather dine with Voldemort Than meet that lizard here from Hungary (HARRY now steps out before the roaring crowd and the roaring Horntail, and yells, "Accio, Firebolt!" For a moment, nothing happens..) Will this spell Firebolts bestow? Here before every eye . (The faithful Firebolt zooms to HARRY'S side) .Oh, with relief I now sigh! I made my Firebolt fly Through Accio! (HARRY mounts his broom and soars off to TriWizard glory) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated today with 57 new filks, including two new full-length musicals!) From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 15:50:40 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:50:40 -0000 Subject: prophecy/Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79175 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Hagrid" wrote: > --- "Potterfanme" wrote: > > You do have something to think about! I don't know if you also > > picked up on the bit of Mars being bright both during the first > class > > that Firenze did and also in SS/PS when Harry is saved by Firenze. > > When Hagrid was talking to Bane and Ronan right before Firenze came > > to Harry's rescue, all they would tell Hagrid was that Mars was > > bright tonight. Hmmmm. > > Susan > > AAAAAAHHHHHhhhhhhh ... the HP series was set to finish in June 1999 - > but MARS IS BRIGHT TONIGHT ! FOUR YEARS LATER ! > > Keep an eye out for the DE symbol lighting up above houses near > you ... Actually, Mars is the closest to earth than it has been in many years, not sure if they siad hundreds or thousands.....actually viewed the heavens last night to catch it! Fran From patnkatng at cox.net Fri Aug 29 15:54:27 2003 From: patnkatng at cox.net (Katrina) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:54:27 -0000 Subject: significant dates (was characters' star signs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79176 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ffimiles" wrote: > I agree, there is something in Hallowe'en - more than it just being > an easily-identifiable day for her to say 'something happened on this > day', rather than using dates, or saying 'mid October'. It's > obviously an important date in the witch/wizard world, though so far > it's just been described as a day for fun/pumpkins etc - but d > definately not a coincidance that it's the day on which Harry > received his scar, and when he was (possibly) conceived. > > Other dates - Hermione's birthday? Other than being the same as my > sister's...I can't think of anything happening in mid-September. The festival of Lughnasadh is also known as Lammas, or "Loaf-Mass." It is a celebration of the First Harvest. It is also a cross-quarter day: half-way between the summer soltice and the autumnal equinox. The closest holiday to Hermione's birthday in September is the equinox. One of the ancient names for this holiday was Mabon (the Second Harvest). This name is, I believe, Welsh. One of my reference books says that this festival is also known as the "Witches' Thanksgiving" and is one of the oldest harvest celebrations in Europe. October 31st, another cross-quarter day, is the Third (and final) Harvest. Katrina (whose birthday is also near Lammas) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 29 15:54:47 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:54:47 -0000 Subject: Prophecy problems (was Harry the Chosen) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79177 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: And how did DD > know that there was an eavesdropper at all if that eavesdropper > wasn't Snape? That's easy. The person who throw the eavesdropper out of the Hog's Head, told Dumbledore about it, afterwards.3 Hickengruendler From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 29 16:01:59 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:01:59 -0000 Subject: Prophecy problems (was Harry the Chosen) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79178 me: >>> And how did DD know that there was an eavesdropper at all if that eavesdropper wasn't Snape?>>> Hickengruendler (whose name I never trust myself to spell): >>That's easy. The person who throw the eavesdropper out of the Hog's Head, told Dumbledore about it, afterwards.>> No, I meant "how did DD know that the eavesdropper had gone and informed Voldemort?" Sorry. Should have explained myself a bit better. Apologies for short post. Kirstini From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 16:20:37 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:20:37 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungo's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79179 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > Bboy wrote, regarding the gum wrappers: > > Bboy also speculated that if Alice had managed to scrawl a rune on > the wrapper, Hermione would be able to interpret her message, having > studied runes. This was in reply to me pointing out that Luna is > reading the Quibbler upside down on the train. > > My response: > > What I was getting at with Luna deciphering the runes was that a) > she's a Ravenclaw and b) she's suspicious and c) she "reads into" > things and d) she's a decoder. bboy_mn: Now that you've pointed me directly at Luna, I suddenly like her as the 'decoder'. I would seem that Hermione could easily miss the obvious. It not that uncommon for any or all of us not to see what is right in front of our face, but Lune looks at the world differently. She tend to naturally see (and believe) things that other people don't. So I could see Luna causally mentioning that the wrappers have some significant Rune symbol on them, but doing it and saying it in an off hand way as if it weren't significant at all; not much rattles Luna. Once Luna pointed it out and Hermione realizes she is right, they might start checking other wrappers for symbols. Of course, this is all unfounded speculation, but I'm sure we all agree that something is up with those gum wrappers. > hermionegallo: > > Since we have no way of knowing if Alice scribbled anything at all > onto the wrappers, which I doubt, we have to go with what we know is > on the wrappers, until JK tells us otherwise. > > There are a lot of ways to anagram "Drooble's Best Blowing Gum..." > > "hg" bboy_mn: Yes I agree, we don't know that anything is on the wrappers, but we suspect very strongly that something is up with the wrappers, and the best we can do is speculate as to what that might be. As far as the anagram, JKR could have dropped some small hint for the readers in an anagram, but there is no way that anagram could ever become part of the story. It's a nice excersize for the reader, but I doubt that one day Hermione is going to look at the wrapper and say, "Oh, now I get it, 'Drooble's Best Blowing Gum' is really '/whatever, whatever, whatever/'". I think the top two theories right now are that a.) they will somehow detect a poison or drug on the wrappers or b.) there is a secret message written on the wrappers. Other than those two I have trouble coming up with other possibilities, but I'm open to suggestions. Just a thought. bboy_mn From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Fri Aug 29 16:29:54 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:29:54 +0100 Subject: Prophets without honour Message-ID: <057C1412-DA3E-11D7-8C31-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79180 Dumbledore seriously considered dropping divination classes as being a waste of time. Hermione thinks it's rubbish. Firenze warns against relying on it. Trelawney inspires no confidence as a teacher. So why are we so obsessed, spending hours beating our heads against *that* prophecy? Throughout the series divination in any form is presented as a 'pretend' subject. 'Pretend' it means something, 'pretend' to do the set homework, 'pretend' that even if real seers exist, it can be taught to non-seers. Yet we are expected to take two supposed prophecies as serious predictions, capable of definitive interpretation. Really? Now this post may cause a blood pressure or two to reach arterial failure level, but never mind, grafts can do wonderful things these days - I think Trelawney is the Nostradamus of the Potterverse. There are those that express belief in Nostradamus (not I, m'lud), but when you actually look at the stuff attributed to him, it takes a massive leap of faith and a lot of fiddling, to come up with anything meaningful. (Not that there was only one; the name was at one time a generic description for a prophet. The writings are the work of about twenty going under that cognomen, of different times and places, all beavering away at prophecies. So the 'Prophecies of Nostradamus' are the collected works of the collective, so to speak. Can't blame them - coming over all mystic and obscure must be fun; beats working for a living. It calls to mind Shakespeares Glendower ( or is it the other one?) trying to impress: "I can call demons from the vasty deep!" and Hals laconic response: "Aye; so can I, so can any man. But do they come when you call?") Exhaustive analyses found much too garbled to read, but of the 449 remaining, 18 are definitely false, 41 *can* be read as being fulfilled ( many were worded so as to allow an even chance of fulfillment, e.g. So and so *may* happen) and 390 cannot be objectively identified with anything that has happened in the last 400+ years. (For those that rear up on their hind legs with cries of "but Hister = Hitler! It was foretold!", Hister was the name of the Danube River in the 16th Century. Only three quatrains mention Hister (1) and all three seem concerned with rivers, bridges, coasts and islands. In the Second World War, both the German (to influence gullible French) and the British (to influence gullible Germans) produced fake quatrains. These are often quoted as if original, usually by those with a vested interest in selling books.) So what has this to do with Trelawney? Well, let's have a look at the two prophecies. First from PoA: "The Dark Lord lies alone and friendless, abandoned by his followers. His servant has been chained for twelve years. Tonight, before midnight, the servant will break free and set out to rejoin his master. The Dark Lord will rise again with his servants aid, greater and more terrible than ever before. Tonight...before midnight...the servant...will set out...to rejoin...his master." Dumbledore doesn't seem particularly impressed, being almost jokingly dismissive when Harry recounts it: "Who'd have thought it? That brings the total of real predictions up to two. I should offer her a pay rise...." Note that neither prophecy has been more than partially fulfilled. It reads as if DD recognises that prophecies occur, but that he is not concerned about their accuracy. More astute and analytical minds than mine have cast their beady eyes over this piece, pointing out possible inconsistencies and ambiguities. Two escaped before midnight - Pettigrew and Sirius. Pettigrew wasn't chained; he was Scabbers by choice; Sirius was chained - in Azkaban. Is 'the servant' the same person as 'his servant'? Far from being greater and more terrible, Voldy seems to be on the back foot, fighting losing battles, much less powerful than before - so far. Could Sirius be 'the servant' who escapes to rejoin DD (his master) and the Order? 'His servant' we believe to be Pettigrew, given events in GoF, but still the prophecy retains something of the cryptic and unsatisfactory - a bit like a recipe that hasn't turned out as per the illustration. Now the second one that we all know and love like a dose of Athletes Foot: "The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies...and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he has power the Dark Lord knows not....and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives...the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies..." Both take the same general form. In both the only person identified is the Dark Lord; the rest are others or servants, possibly only one person, possibly more. We can all flick back through the posts and come up with a whole sackful of interpretations, all interesting, most valid within the canon (if you twist that bit and give it a nudge here), and none accepted as significantly more likely than the next. It all depends, you see.... Dumbledore states in OoP that it definitely refers to Harry. Why? There are some critical facts missing that give me a somewhat jaundiced view of DDs declaration. Let's run through DDs probable actions after Trelawney bounced this one off him: 1. Thinks - "Prophecy? Hmm, could be important. Better get the Dept. of Mysteries in on it." 2. He has the prophecy in his memory. No use there. So, from memory to pensieve for processing. 3. At the pensieve stage it is *interpreted* so that it can be properly labeled. (But see 5. below) 4. It is englobed and protected by spells so that only the names on the label can access it. Stages 3 & 4 are weak points. Somehow it was decided it was probably about Harry and was spell protected so that only Harry and Voldy could remove it. Harry accesses it; big revelation! If he can access it, it must be about him! A circular argument if ever there was one. The protective spells do not give validity to the prophecy, only to someone else's interpretation of it. A prophesy doesn't care who hears it. DD, the eavesdropper, possibly others at the DoM heard (more would have if there hadn't been so much noise going on when it broke). No, it is the Ministry that decides "To whom it may concern." 5. When did the prophecy end up in the Ministry?Before or after Godrics Hollow? If before, then it didn't have Harry's name on it. It was added later. If after, we must still come to the same conclusion - in both cases the prophesy was interpreted in the light of events that had already happened. Mostly based on the premise that the scar equates to 'mark him as his equal', since the other bits could apply to Neville, for one. And tell me, since when has Harry been Voldemorts' equal? Remember, it does not read "will be his equal" future tense, but "as his equal" present tense. It's a poor prophecy that requires hindsight or preconceived notions to reveal its meaning. "Whosoever shall draw the sword from the stone shall be the Once and Future King." Now *that's* what I call a prophecy. Clear and definitive - no messing around with 'other', 'either', 'those' or 'neither' So, the conclusion. The prophecy will only make any sort of sense after what happens has happened. Even then it will depend on interpretations of the kind that go - "Well, that phrase could mean that, probably, even though it's ambiguous - but what the hell! It's happened, so that's what it *must* mean." As with Nostradamus, it's those who want to believe that make the prophecies fit. Kneasy (1) For those that have got a life and don't want to squander it wading through Nostradamus, these are the three quatrains on Hister. And I refuse point blank to enter into any correspondence about this tripe. Liberty will be recovered, A bold, black, base-born, iniquitous man will occupy it, When the material of the bridge is completed, The Republic of Venice will be annoyed by Hister In place quite near, but far from Venus, The two greatest of Asia, and Africa It will be said that they are from the Rhine and Hister, Cries, tears at Malta, and Ligurian coast. Animals fierce with hunger to swim rivers: Greater part of the camp will be against Hister, It will have the great man carried in an iron cage, When the German child watches the Rhine. See what I mean? From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 29 16:35:29 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:35:29 -0000 Subject: Snape in SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79181 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" wrote: > Since reading OotP I firmly believe that Snape is being set up to be > seriously accused of being at the evil side for sure. For instance, > after Harry's first occlumency lesson he has a dream in which LV is > very, very happy. The next day the trio reads in the Daily Prophet > that the DE's have escaped Azkaban. Ron's conclusion is that it is > that event that makes LV so very happy. Later on, the suggestion is > made by Ron (again) that Snape is in fact trying to open Harry's mind > a bit more for LV, through those occlumency lessons. Attentive > readers would now probably say: `Aha, JKR is leading us astray with > the happy event for LV! It is not the DE's escape, but LV now gaining > more access to Harry's mind, thanks to Snape.' > In fact (IMO) neither event is what LV makes so happy, but the > information that Kreacher gave to the Malfoys about the growing > father/brother relation between Harry and Sirius, and which was at > that moment passed on to LV. Only we learn this much, much later, in > the chapter where DD tells Harry all that he should have told > earlier. But the suggestion is made (by JKR): it is Snape's doing > that makes LV so happy. > > Next the events leading to the `rescue mission' at the MoM (let me > call it that) leave Snape in a suspicious position as well. To say, > he is again a suspicious character as far as Harry is concerned. > Another set up for a serious accusation in one of the books to come, > again IMO. > > So, how do I think that this will work out? Well, after presenting my > take or theory (whichever) on Snape being related to the Malfoys (see > my post 79062) in which I gave my opinion that the Agnes in St. > Mungo's is in fact his mother, I would like to add why I think this > is useful, by making this theory connect to SILK GOWNS. > > In my reply to SILK GOWNS (post 79154) I agreed with the idea that > the gum that the Longbottoms apparently receive in much abundance, > contains something that keeps them incapacitated. Why couldn't this > something be a potion? > My theory is that the trio will somehow discover that Snape visits > St. Mungo's. Perhaps through Neville, who has seen Snape there. As > Harry, and Ron as well, are suspicious of him, they will connect this > with the Longbottoms. Next they will begin to wonder about the gum > and in some way discover that it has been tampered with. So, as > Snape comes there regularly and he is a potion master, he used to be > a DE, he is still around LV Oh, yes, a very neat accusation for Harry > and Ron to make. I think that Hermione has difficulties believ. I > even think that it is Lucius Malfoy's set up. That is why I suggested > in my post 79062 that he pays the bill for Agnes' stay at St. > Mungo's. Put Snape's mother in the same ward as the Longbottoms, use > (or let someone else use ? a healer -) a potion to tamper with the > gum and who is the most obvious suspect? Not Lucius, but Snape. Add > his dubious past, his current connections to LV, the fact that Snape > is indebted to Lucius and Snape will have a difficult time proving > his innocence. > > And this adds another twist to the story, what will DD do with this? > As DD has pointed out, more than once, he trusts Severus Snape. Will > he continue to do so? I think he should. Some posters here have > already said that DD's lenient behaviour with regard to the prank has > been the `tipping over' moment for Snape to join LV's side. I believe > that too, but feel that DD should now stick with Snape even if his > trust wavers. Because if DD doesn't, Snape will feel being let down, > again, and there is nothing that will stop him from joining LV really > and for good. > My take (well, everything I write here is my take off course, but you > grasp my meaning) is that DD will stick with Snape. Leading to, at > the end, a scene at DD's office, explaining Snape's real situation to > Harry. > > Well, I leave my theory and its connections to others for the moment. > Do I dare? Yes, I dare to take the liberty to add my own acronym to > SILK GOWNS: > > Snape > Soon > Neatly > Accused & > Proven > Evil > > in > > Suspiciously > Insane > Longbottoms, the > Key is the > > Gum > Or > Wrappers, that > Neville > Saves > > So, we find S SNAPE in SILK GOWNS. > > Lilian, I think this is able to happen. But I wonder if Malfoy isn't involved more than you may think. If I remember correctly, Malfoy is the reason Bode was in St. Mungos. It would then fit that he was the elderly wizard with the ear trumpet. If he was visiting Bode and donating so much money to St. Mungos, couldn't he be the one who is poisoning the gum or having it poisoned? I think he may possibly be having Snape make the potion that is used but he may not be telling Snape what he needs the potion for. Interesting.... Susan From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 02:47:31 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 02:47:31 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79182 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Potterfanme" wrote: > Mugglenet.com currently has a poll asking if Percy will appologize to > his family. This is a very interesting question. I have very mixed > feelings about this. Part of me says that he will offer it up and > admit that he was being power hungry and stupid. The other part of > me says that he will have every excuse in the world and feel that he > did nothing wrong and maybe even turn the events around to where he > insists that he was right all along and his family should appologize > to him. Any thoughts? > Susan=Potterfanme The jury is still out on Percy as far as I'm concerned. I agree with the poster who said that Percy is looking to bail on his family. Percy loves power and he loves the bureaucracy and all its arcane rules. I'm not so sure he'll reconcile with the family. He probably thinks the Ministry should handle the Voldemort issue and feels the Order of Phoenix is some sort of illegal vigilante group. I really think he is Fudge's heir (there's that word again!) apparent. I am also reminded of what I posted in the "Fudge is a DE!" thread. (post #79006, but I'll cut and paste it here): > > This ties into thoughts of Percy's future. I reread GoF recently and smirked while reading the part where Harry, Ron, and Hermione are leaving the cave after meeting with Sirius. Hermione chastises Ron when he says that Crouch reminds him of Percy. (I think that's what he says... don't have the book handy.) She says that Percy would never throw his family to the dementors. And Ron reacts skeptically, saying that he wasn't so sure of that... esp. if Percy thought his family was standing in the way of his career plans. More proof of Percy as the future Fudge? (In CoS, one of the Weasleys boys says that Percy's goal is to be Minister of Magic.) So, I think JKR has some plans for Percy, and they ain't all good. serious_schwartz From sylviablundell at aol.com Fri Aug 29 16:43:40 2003 From: sylviablundell at aol.com (sylviablundell2001) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:43:40 -0000 Subject: Re. Invisible Minorities Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79183 Why would Lupin put his RIGHT hand out to summon the bus. Presumably the bus is driving on the left-hand side of the road, since it is in England. If Lupin is facing it, he would naturally put out his LEFT hand, whether he was left- or right-handed. To put out his right hand would involve a very awkward gesture. Sylvia (mother of a determinedly left=handed son) From rachnastar at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 29 01:58:13 2003 From: rachnastar at yahoo.ca (Rachna) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:58:13 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79184 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: *snip* > By having Christmas and Easter (plus Halloween - it is the CHRISTIAN > version) even if just as time markers I assume that Christianity is > the dominant cultural/religious force within the WW. > > Merely a choice in flavour. Why would any object to Wizards having > their own religion? That seems to me like objecting to India being > majority Hindu. > > Golly I agreed with most of what you said, but I think that Christianity is the dominant cultural/religious force within the UK's WW, just like it's the dominant cultural/religious force within the UK. And in the WW in India, the majority's probably Hindu. Rachna From mb1984 at prodigy.net Fri Aug 29 02:51:37 2003 From: mb1984 at prodigy.net (MB1984) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:51:37 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79185 -----Original Message----- From: dream_catcher3010 [mailto:rachelday at blueyonder.co.uk] I'd like to examine the star signs of the characters and how well they are suited to them, and try to match up other characters with star signs people think they are suited to...I'd like to nominate Sirius (and to a lesser extent, possibly Snape and Draco I think) as Scorpios. Hmm. I think Draco is an Aries, an intense fire sign, and the (spoiled, immature) baby of the zodiac. I agree that Sirius could be/probably is a Scorpio, but I think Snape is a Virgo (not an original opinion, by any means). He has many of the downsides associated with the sign. As for others, just off the top of my head, I think McGonagall is either a Taurus or a Capricorn. Sprout is a Cancer. Flitwick is an Aquarius. Hagrid is a Taurus. Lupin is a Capricorn. Moody is a Scorpio. Tonks is an Aquarius. Dumbledore is either a Gemini or a Pisces. Lockhart is a Libra. Filch is a Cancer. Pomfrey is an Aries. I'd say Fred-n-George are Gemini, but that would be *such* a clich. ;) Fun question! Millefiori From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Fri Aug 29 02:47:03 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 21:47:03 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Wizards Don't Use Ball-Point Pens (and other Muggle artifacts) References: Message-ID: <3F4EBEA7.7050601@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79186 Woodward, Deirdre wrote: > Here's the definitive answer to the Muggle artifact question. > > *clears her throat in a self-important way* > > My theory -- the Truth, really -- is that Wizards don't use Muggle > artifacts because Muggle artifacts more often than not create trash -- > old cars, throw-away pens, McDonald wrappers, etc. There is no trash in > the Wizard World (except chocolate frog wrappers, and even they are made > from recycled hemp). Wizards live with the earth, so they live in a > world that respects the earth. > > Wizards, if they voted, would vote green. > > No, not if you know what the green party really stands for. A number of things would keep Wizards out of the Green Party. Their use of animals. They turn them into things, into other animals, blow them up, chop them up for potions, etc. They kill any that they even think are dangerous, such as their attempt to kill Buckbeak. Only when the MOM declares a species protected, do they cut them some slack. But there are still dragon steaks available for Hagrid to aquire for a black eye... Their use of plants that are possibly intelligent. Ever think of what happens to those Mandrakes soon as they reached adulthood? The way they treat non-humans like house elves, centaurs, etc. I really doubt that chocolate frog wrappers are made out of hemp...Where did you get that? The reason they don't use muggle items much is that they are 'dependent on magic' and creatures of habit. Why buy a ball point pen when you learned how to write with a perfectly good quill? Why bother changing gold to muggle money to go out to London and buy a ball point pen? There are probably magic quills that have ever-flowing ink and serve the same purpose anyways, but Harry hasn't bought one yet. As for no wizard using muggle items, that's not all that true. Many young wizards wear muggle style clothing. Harry wears a non-magical watch. They use common things like dishware, chairs, Depillows, beds, etc. They wear socks. However, they do have a 'Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office' at the MOM. Where they try and control what wizards DO to muggle items. (QUOTE) "He works in the most boring department," said Ron. "The Misuse of Muggle Artifacts Office." "The what?" "It's all to do with bewitching things that are Muggle-made, you know, in case they end up back in a Muggle shop or house. Like, last year, some old witch died and her tea set was sold to an antiques shop. This Muggle woman bought it, took it home, and tried to serve her friends tea in it. It was a nightmare - Dad was working overtime for weeks." (End QUOTE) So this points to a problem with Muggle made items that Wizards own. Either they absorb too much magic around the house or they end up with spells on them to make them do things they are not supposed to do normally. Also, there is the Anti-Muggle feelings among many wizards. Look at the facts. Everything from kids calling other kids Mudbloods to repeated memory charms on the Muggle at the gate of the campsite (with little thought of brain damage this might cause) to the DEs. I mean, muggles are NOT very well thought of by most of the WW. In fact, many think them little more then animals. No, Wizards are far from 'Greenies'. The only reason they don't appear to produce a lot of waste is because they can wave their wands and make the waste vanish. But as matter can not be created or destroyed, but only changed, where do vanished things go? Teleported to another dimension? A wizards landfill in some centaur's back yard? Who knows? Jazmyn From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 11:09:06 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:09:06 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus Mimbletonia (was Neville's wand) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79187 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mlle_bienvenu" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" > wrote: > > > > > Richard responded with several ideas why the old man could not be > > Neville's uncle. > > > > I add that I believe it's Pettigrew. The hand wouldn't be able to > > transfigure into flesh, hence the hearing trumpet. > > > > "hg" > > Mlle: I'm a little confused on how the hearing trumpet would hide his > hand. I would think it would make his hand more visible if he's > holding a hearing trumpet. Am I missing something? Mlle What I meant was that since his hand is silver, not flesh, the silver would have to transfigure into something not flesh. He could have been wearing robes that extended the length of his arm, disguising the fact that there was no hand holding the trumpet. hg From nelliot at ozemail.com.au Fri Aug 29 11:30:03 2003 From: nelliot at ozemail.com.au (njelliot2003) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:30:03 -0000 Subject: Wizards regarding Muggles (was:Re: TBAY: Kirstini's big Theorising Adventure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79188 I'm sorry but I don't go along with the moral indignation of the posts concerning the WW's poor treatment of Muggles. Sure Muggles are treated badly by some wizards but the books don't endorse their behaviour. Frank's death in Chapter 1 of GoF was to show us what a baddie big V is and that is true of all the Muggle mistreatment in the series. The bad guys do the bad things to Muggles, the good guys stand for humane treatment of Muggles, like the way Harry and Ron leap to Hermione's defence every time she's called a mudblood. The books moral postion on Muggles is set by Dumbledore who IMO exemplifies the moral centre of the Potterverse. Dumbledore accepts and includes all kinds: free house elves, half-giants, were-wolves, Muggles, centaurs and vampires if Snape turns out to be one. He lectures Harry about how wizards have done terrible things to other 'races' and are now reaping their reward for past unjustice. The destruction of the Fountain of Magical Bretheren is symbolic of the forces of good ushering in a new order in which all wizard and muggle kinds will be accepted. Love is what saves Harry and it's what's going to destroy big V. So please don't pretend that JKR endorses the poor treatment of Muggles. The fun that is poked at them is just that, *fun* and is no different to the pokes she takes at wizards (the bureacracy for example). Nicholas (hoping he hasn't missed the point here) From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 12:17:43 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:17:43 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79189 Potterfanme has started a thread wondering if Percy will apologize. I have long thought, as all of you must have, that Percy's behavior in OoP is reprehensible. But because his behavior was so extreme, I've been forced to wonder if Percy is indeed Percy, when he certainly isn't acting "himself." The main thing that would contradict this notion is the prevalence of the the importance of choice in the series. Any thoughts? hg From mb1984 at prodigy.net Fri Aug 29 13:05:41 2003 From: mb1984 at prodigy.net (MB1984) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 08:05:41 -0500 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Who's_your_daddy=3F_=28was_Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?family_tree.=29?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79190 -----Original Message----- From: evangelina839 [mailto:evangelina839 at yahoo.se] As for halfblood!Snape being unfit for the Head of Slytherin position, I wonder if everyone's ancestry really is such a common knowledge. Draco calls Hermione mudblood, but maybe he just made the effort to find out how pure her blood was Millefiori: I think it's likely that all of the purebloods *know* each other, since they're a very small group, and most are related. Whenever someone unknown comes onto the scene they're automatically viewed with suspicion unless they can provide credible proof of a 'good' background. Also, regardless of whatever suspicions the Slytherins may have regarding the bloodlines of various students, Draco *knows* that Hermione is a mudblood because he saw her Muggle parents at Flourish and Blotts. Evangelina: Also, maybe having a squib for parent doesn't automatically mean that you are a halfblood. After all, all your grandparents could still be all witches and wizards. Millifiori: I agree. A squib might be an embarrassment for a pureblood wizarding family, but he or she would still be a pureblood, and the family genetics would still be passed along to any of his/her offspring. The only way to be a halfblood is to have one Muggle parent. The only way to be a mudblood is to be a witch/wizard born to two Muggle parents. Millefiori From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 29 12:59:16 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:59:16 -0000 Subject: Why Wizards Don't Use Ball-Point Pens (and other Muggle artifacts) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79191 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Woodward, Deirdre" wrote: > Here's the definitive answer to the Muggle artifact question. > > *clears her throat in a self-important way* > > My theory -- the Truth, really -- is that Wizards don't use Muggle artifacts because Muggle artifacts more often than not create trash -- old cars, throw-away pens, McDonald wrappers, etc. Then why not fountain pens which have much better nibs and are far easier to use and don't need to be dipped? Besides Wizards could always tranfigure the garbage into something useful. It must be the ultimate form of recycling. Golly From feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca Fri Aug 29 13:36:46 2003 From: feetmadeofclay at yahoo.ca (feetmadeofclay) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:36:46 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79192 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: > > Perhaps you misunderstood - Harry Potter books are the most banned > books in the US. Certain religious sects feel they are about > witchcraft etc promote santanism etc. I meant, to imagine if she > added pagan holidays as well... mugglenet a few weeks ago posted a > book burning involving Harry Potter books. My point was that by > leaving Christian holidays in the books - JKR provides a counter- > point (although unecessarily) to the belief that HP books promote > witchcraft and evil. > > I still believe that the sole purpose > of JKR including holidays are for time frame and familiarity (earlier > post) > > lziner Well the only reason they are so banned is because they are so popular. Diana Wynne Jones' books are no different except that millions of kids aren't mad for Howl. (That is just the ladies) It provides a platform for fundamentalist Christians to speak about what they fear is a dangerous irreligious part of modern culture. The fact that we pay any mind to it, is what makes the view powerful. But in reality it is an view not held by majority of people/parents in America - as evidenced by America's very good sales of HP. Also the reason they are the most banned is because lots of books considered innapropriate (or in this case anti Christian) are simply not stocked in many school or local libraries, but not necessarily banned either. They are simply not bought and not considered at all. HP was bought and then removed and its being so popular makes the difference. When at 16 I asked for a copy of Lady Chatterly's Lover (having it recommended by a friend) my school librarian turned whiter than chalk and simply said they didn't have it. Was it banned? I don't think exactly so - and thus it doesn't get listed amongst the banned books. They didn't have a copy of the science book I wanted either and that most certainly was not scandalous. That being said I don't think Rowling ever thought her books would be banned or innapropriate for Christian children. I don't think that is why she put in Christmas. If fundemntalists hate Harry Potter when the kids celebrate Christmas, IMHO making the kids celebrate Samhain or such would not likely alienate those that don't hate HP. We would merely have encorporated it into the idea that Wizard culture was different. I don't disagree about using the holidays as time keepers. It is very much the way kids mark time. Birthdays to Christmas to easter to summer holidays. However, what necessarily follows from having these kids celebrate Christmas on mass (in a segregated society) is that majority are most likely also Christian in some way. Especially since the celebrate it in much the same way Muggles do. The media wanted to make a story out of HP and it let a minority take centre stage because they were more fussy about what their children read. Nothing more than something to sell newspapers. The book burnings are nothing more than something that will motivate the media to pay attention to what Christian fundamentalists want their children to read. Those kids aren't likely to read the dozen or so things I read as a child. I simply think the focus is on HP because it is so popular. Reporting every book burning only gives these people power. They are extremists. Why not focus on getting those kids a good science education or something. We should have another monkey trial. The focus on HP is silly on both sides. I don't know why they make such a fuss - What they don't like about the books is clearly obvious from info on the back cover. The books are about a boy who goes to a wizard school. Just censor their own children's reading - why bother everyone else with their views? Golly From johnheaton at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 14:00:13 2003 From: johnheaton at yahoo.com (John Heaton) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 07:00:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: <1062127090.13286.61869.m11@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <20030829140013.67040.qmail@web11306.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79193 --- On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 14:28:08 EDT, carlpelleg at aol.com wrote: > I have found a few uses for the three 'Unforgivable Curses'. > > Avada Kedavra Curses ... could be used during legalized death > penalties. Of course this only applies if the Wizarding World > has the death penalty. > > Cruciatus Curse ... could be used, in small doses, to help > interrogate a prisoner. Call me a crazy liberal, but I'm not sure that torturing prisoners really counts as a legitimate use of the cruciatus curse. Using AK as a means of carrying out a death sentence is more of a gray area; I am personally opposed to the death penalty and do not think that it is justified under any circumstance, but if the wizarding community in a given country practices the death penalty, using AK may be an acceptable way to carry it out. It's better than having your soul sucked by a Dementor, I guess. ===== John Heaton AIM: JohnHeaton http://bluearmadillo.net __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From nelliot at ozemail.com.au Fri Aug 29 14:17:19 2003 From: nelliot at ozemail.com.au (njelliot2003) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:17:19 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's 'Plan' for Harry Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79194 In the chapter The Lost Prophesy of OoP, Dumbledore tells Harry about his plan for him. But what is the plan? The only plan I heard was to save Harry's life by using the blood link/charm of his Aunt Petunia. That part of the plan succeeds - "Five years ago, then .... you arrived at Hogwars, neither as happy nor as well-nourished as I wold have liked, perhaps, yet alive and healthy. You were not a pampered little prince, but as normal a boy as I could have hoped under the circumstance. Thus far, my plan was working well." (OoP pg. 737, last para, au. ed.) But after that I couldn't work out what the rest of DD's plan for Harry entails. And what is the 'flaw' in the plan? Dumbledore said that the flaw was delaying the revealation of why big V wanted to kill him. His reason for staying mum was to save Harry from the great burden it would place on him. DD's weakness was that he grew to love Harry and wanted to spare him further pain. But how does Harry knowing about the prophesy change the plan? As DD knew, Harry now has an *enormous* burden on his shoulders (as if he hasn't suffered enough!) but I don't see how this affects DD's plan. If this has been discussed before, could someone please point me to a relevant message? Nicholas who-thinks-there-must-be-more-to-the-plan-but-either-DD/JKR- doesn't-want-to-give-it-away-yet-or-he-missed-something Elliot From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Aug 29 14:34:07 2003 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:34:07 -0000 Subject: Predestination (was Re: prophecy/Firenze) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79195 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > This brings up a major question I have about the prophecy: If one of > the major themes in the HP series is about choice, then it doesn't > follow that the *prophecy* is Harry's one and only destiny. If > that's the case, then Harry's life is predestined and without choice, > so what would be the point?!? > > I read the prophecy as a "probable outcome" of many possible outcomes > that confront Harry. Dumbledore believes the prophecy has a strong > probability of coming true, so he's been guiding Harry along this > path for 15 years. But as DD discovers in OOTP, even a master plan > can have flaws, and the fulfillment of the prophecy depends on Harry. > > If, as Firenze states, even centaurs can be wrong (and they have a > much better grasp of "the stars"), then I think the prophecy may > tells us more about Harry's past, and the expectations others have > placed on him, than about what Harry ultimately decides is his > *destiny*. I say: It does feel funny, doesn't it? Harry has had this responsibility laid at his feet from birth. But I think the point is that there *are* still choices for Harry to make. As we've all debated to infinity and beyond, "live" in the prophecy can mean many things. Harry could, for example, allow LV to "live" by forsaking his responsibility and simply running away forever--or at least until he is found and destroyed. He could give up and die. He could choose to walk into the battle already defeated in his own heart, and allow LV to finish him off with little fight. These are all dangers to which JKR has alluded constantly in books 1-5. Harry certainly fought hopelessness for much of book 5, and that looks to take center stage in book 6. Then there is his other option. He could try his best to stop LV from destroying his newfound life, his friends, his classmates, and the WW as we know it. Yes, he will know that it may take the supreme sacrifice--his life--but he may still choose to do so for the good of everyone who has given him this second life. (Life at the Dursleys being the first.) We are all born into the responsibility to try to make a positive contribution in this world; Harry's potential contribution simply has larger repercussions than most readers'. IMO that is the belief behind JKR's focus on choices. "boyd_smythe" From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 29 17:07:46 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:07:46 -0000 Subject: Re. Invisible Minorities In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79196 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sylviablundell2001" wrote: > Why would Lupin put his RIGHT hand out to summon the bus. Presumably > the bus is driving on the left-hand side of the road, since it is in > England. If Lupin is facing it, he would naturally put out his LEFT > hand, whether he was left- or right-handed. To put out his right hand > would involve a very awkward gesture. > Sylvia (mother of a determinedly left=handed son) In POA Stan Shunpike explains to Harry that to *call* the bus you stick out your *wand* hand. Susan From boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com Fri Aug 29 15:13:25 2003 From: boyd.t.smythe at fritolay.com (boyd_smythe) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:13:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's Betrayer Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79197 I agree with Hickengruendler, LK and a number of others that for the plot to move forward, at some point DD needs to be eliminated as a player. The difficult question appears to be: how? As the most powerful living wizard, he can defeat even LV and a DE handily while saving a frightened Harry (recall the MoM battle). So where is his weakness? How can he be vanquished? IMO, Dumbledore's one weakness lies in his misplaced trust of others. He has apparently hired and trusted every DADA--simply because he knew them. (OK, maybe he didn't completely trust Lockhart). He retains Hagrid and Trelawny even when their teaching is questioned, because he trusts them. Then there's Sirius. And let's not even get started on Snape, who is definitely *not* ESE. So how could this be used against DD? Betrayal, trap-setting and back-stabbing. Here's my scenario. Each book has been punctuated with a quasi-battle scene that turns events on their heads. Here's how it could play out in book 6. As LV, the DEs, and probably some opportunists begin terrorizing the WW again (deaths, disappearances and a near-societal breakdown like the first coming of LV), Dumbledore decides to send Harry into the protection of a few trusted wizards: Moody and Snape, certainly, plus pick one or two from Lupin, Shacklebolt and Tonks. Then let Harry stew in that unpleasant company for a while. Then LV/DEs launch a surprise attack, DD arrives to save the day, perhaps nearly does, but then is assaulted from behind by a member of that trusted group--sorry, but my bet is on Tonks the convenient metamorphmagus. Thus surprised and saddened, DD is vanquished. Maybe not forever: time turners, memory charms, portraits/cards and ghosts come to mind. But no longer a player in battle. What follows is up to you. I favor the scene where Snape saves Harry kicking and screaming because he *still* doesn't trust Snape. Then Snape is the mentor who can relate to Harry in ways DD never could. Very touching, yes? Remnant "DD is dead. Long live LV!" (at least, until book 7) From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 16:39:29 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:39:29 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79198 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" wrote: > A lot of interesting posts have been made about the incapacity of the > Longbottoms and the significance of the gum wrappers. Well, here's mine: I've been thinking about the whole Droobles mystery, and I must admit that it's driven absolutely mad. That aside, these are my thoughts: The particular ward that Neville's parents are on may somehow be controlled by either LV or Fudge. If we look at the people that we know of who are in that ward (which, we find out from the nurse that it is pretty high security, although deadly plants seem to make their way in fairly easily)we see that what they all have in common is that they all have or may have some kind of dangerous information. Lockhart, of course, is the only adult who has seen the Chamber of Secrets opened. Neville's parents: unknown, but were Order members so they may have gotten some interesting info before they were "addled". The last (what's the name?? Bode?), who was killed by his gift of Devil's Snare, was able to get to the Dept. of Mysteries and make his way all the way through to the prophecy. Anyway, I think Nevilles' mother may be giving him some sort of clue about the ward itself with the wrappers; that is, that the doctors (or someone) are purposely keeping them in their foggy state. So, then, the wrappers. Maybe the wrappers are not all bubblegum wrappers. Perhaps she has given him other types of candy wrappers as well. In that case, they are a clue to "candy". That is, maybe she's saying that "fudge" is responsible (is this too much of a stretch?). Or, Droobles does start with the letters Dr., so maybe it's a clue to the doctor's name, which we'll see in Book 6. Is this lame? Entropy, who always likes to look for the very worst in everyone. From serious_schwartz at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 16:47:42 2003 From: serious_schwartz at yahoo.com (serious_schwartz) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 16:47:42 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79199 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > I think this, more than anything else, shows the direction that > Percy is going. It is interesting how the poverty and low status > of the family affects each of the children in a different - but > profound way. Fred and George want to make tons of money selling > jokes, Ron dreams of glory., etc. Percy wants to distinguish > himself in the eyes of the person (or persons) he views as being > at the top of the hierarchy. > > He has also shown admiration towards the most > ruthless and immoral officials in the MoM (Fudge, Crouch, Umbridge). > The next logical choice for him would therefore be Voldemort. > > So I am afraid that we'll see Percy going even farther towards the > evil path. I don't know if he'll go far enough to become a death > eater. I have a feeling he'll try to turn around at some point, > but that he will then be killed by one of the authority figures > he so admires (Voldemort or one of the top DE's). He may have > a chance to redeem himself before he dies, but in these kinds > of dramas, those who refuse to make a moral choice tend to be > ground between the opposing sides. You make some good points. I agree that Percy will not come back to the family. He seems to have nothing but disdain for them. Almost to the point that he sees himself as not one of them. I don't think he'll go so far as to support Voldemort, though. I would hope he'd be clear on how horrible an option that would be. In CoS, Ron compares Percy to Crouch Sr, after the kids hear the story from Sirius of what happened with the Crouches. Hermione angrily tells Ron that Percy would never throw any family members to the dementors, and Ron responds that Percy would if thought his family was standing in the way of his career. Also in that book, one of the twins points out that Percy's goal is to be Minster of Magic. My guess is that Percy will be the new Fudge. Not necessarily Minister of Magic anytime soon, but rather the officious, self-serving politician and bureaucrat who is in the oft-discussed grey area of not Voldy evil, but bad enough to help Voldy without realizing it. I also think the rift with the family will continue because Percy can't help but view the Order as some sort of illegal vigilante organization. Outlaws, if you will, and therefore working against the ministry. I think that is where the real showdowns between him and his family will come into play. serious_schwartz From sollecks970 at aol.com Fri Aug 29 01:56:44 2003 From: sollecks970 at aol.com (fawkes970) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 01:56:44 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79200 Rachel: > I would also like to suggest Neville as a contender for Taurus, > especially after his character development in OoP. Taureans often > portray characteristics of extreme determination and stregth of will. > They will willingly and loyally follow a leader who they trust. They > are stable, balanced, and lovers of peace. They are faithful and > generous. In the main Taureans are gentle, even-tempered,good-natured > and slow to anger. If they are provoked however, they can explode > into violent outbursts. I think this is very much like Neville and he > was the first person I thought of when I read this description (taken > from The Practical Astrologer - David Christie-Murray). > > I'd love to hear peoples thoughts on the characters star signs, of > course including those I haven't mentioned. Hope i'm not going over > old ground or rambled to much. Also, sorry to the mods if this should > be on the OT list, I wasn't sure. In replying to this: I would like to first point out that we do in fact, know another character's zodiac: Neville. Neville's brithday is the same as Harry's, and therefore will be a Leo as well. However, Neville is not any of the characteristics that the typical Leo is either (a showman, attention seeker , etc). Of course, I think that Neville has only yet to show his new self. Another character I'd like to point out is Dudley. I beleive his birthday is also in the summer: at which point I am not certain but I just thought if people were going to be figuring out star signals maybe it would say something about why Dudley is who he is, and what he may come to be? Just a thought: fawkes(pat) From annemehr at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 17:16:34 2003 From: annemehr at yahoo.com (annemehr) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:16:34 -0000 Subject: Predestination (was Re: prophecy/Firenze) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79201 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > This brings up a major question I have about the prophecy: If one of > the major themes in the HP series is about choice, then it doesn't > follow that the *prophecy* is Harry's one and only destiny. If > that's the case, then Harry's life is predestined and without choice, > so what would be the point?!? > Annemehr: I don't have any belief in "predestination" _at_all_, so when I see prophecies in literature, I take them as a sort of "news report" in advance. If a prophecy is to be trusted, it does come true in some way -- usually an unforseen way. There is nothing controlling Harry's choices; he is still free to make them himself. Certainly, the fact that he's heard the prophecy will have a profound effect on him, but no more so than the deaths of Lily, James, and Sirius, or his upbringing with the Dursleys. It's still what he *does* about what's happened to him that's important. Furthermore, we are all aware that Voldemort, of *his* own free choice, is determined to kill Harry, which makes a situation where at least one of them dies very likely to occur. Jen again: > If, as Firenze states, even centaurs can be wrong (and they have a > much better grasp of "the stars"), then I think the prophecy may > tells us more about Harry's past, and the expectations others have > placed on him, than about what Harry ultimately decides is his > *destiny*. > > Jen I think these things you mention will certainly have a part in how the prophecy works out, but at the time it was made, Harry had no past, so it couldn't have been an extrapolation from his past. I don't think seeing the future equates to causing the future. I also think Firenze is right about prophecies, and that Dumbledore and Harry may well be mistaken in their interpretation. I fully expect no one to actually realise it when the prophecy is coming true until after the fact -- which means that Harry will be making his decisions and doing what seems right as he normally does, until it suddenly becomes apparant that Voldemort has been vanquished for good. Unfortunately for us, *we* will probably have a fair idea of when the prophecy is about to come true: somewhere fairly near to the end of book seven! Speaking of Firenze, and Mars being bright, I certainly hope Harry has the sense to try and talk to Firenze sometime *soon*. I want to know what it is about Mars and what Firenze and Bane were arguing about in the Forest in PS/SS. I'm also hoping that Firenze can help Harry deal with Trelawney's prophecy in some way. Even though, before the end of OoP, it begins to look like he was wrong about Grawp (though it probably just means a disaster is coming in book six). Annemehr From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 29 17:30:17 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:30:17 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79202 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" wrote: > So, then, the wrappers. Maybe the wrappers are not all bubblegum > wrappers. Perhaps she has given him other types of candy wrappers as > well. In that case, they are a clue to "candy". That is, maybe she's > saying that "fudge" is responsible (is this too much of a stretch?). > Or, Droobles does start with the letters Dr., so maybe it's a clue to > the doctor's name, which we'll see in Book 6. Is this lame? > > Entropy, who always likes to look for the very worst in everyone. The only thing I see that you need to change is the D for Dr. In the wizard world they are Healers so you need an H in there. Susan From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 29 17:47:02 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:47:02 -0000 Subject: Prophecy problems (was Harry the Chosen) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79203 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > I'm with you up to a point, in that I agree that Harry as spiritual > heir would be a far more satisfying way to approach the whole sordid > business, and I certainly don't think that the prophecy proves > anything finally. While I love British literature, I really dislike the obssessive focus they have on blood lines and noble heritage. In LOTR, even Frodo has to have some exalted lineage and of course Aragorn must be of some ancient royal blood, etc. So I would hate it if Harry turns out to be Gryffindor's descendant. I like him much more as being his own man, child of very talented parents, perhaps, but no lofty parentage involved. Notice that all those worried about bloodlines in the books are evil. It will be very out of character for Rawlings to then turn around and make Harry a noble born too. I hope it does not happen. > Don't forget, OoP still hasn't resolved the problem of why James had > to die and Lily didn't. I still think there's *something* about those > Potters. I agree. I think there was a good reason why Harry was selected and not Neville. I don't believe it was random. But we won't find out until book 7... > The fact that Trelawny fails to > remember her true prophecies as she makes them would suggest to me > that the prophets themselves merely act as receivers for small pieces > of information, I don't think she remembers, but it may still reside in some subconscious part of her mind and can be retrieved with the right kind of potions or spells. Why otherwise would Dumbledore hire her and keep her at Hogwarts despite being a total incompetent? Why would he order her to stay at Hogwarts even after she is fired? Clearly he fears that Voldemort will capture her and extract the prophecy from her subconscious memory. Now that the record in the DoM is destroyed, this is probably what Voldemort will attempt to do (and I expect that he may very well succeed). > Also, remember that DD controls the version of the prophecy that > Harry hears, and all those pauses at least offer the possibility that > what he shows Harry is edited. That would make sense except that it would make Dumbledore an outright liar. He told Harry at the beginning of their conversation that he would "tell him everything". Since he has always shown himself an honorable man, I am sure what we have seen is the entire prophecy. > And who gave the order for the eavesdropper to be thrown out anyway? > Did the barman (Aberforth Dumbledore. I'm telling you)say something > like "I say! That chap's listening in to the prophecy that woman > appears to be making about the coming hero who will vanquish the Dark > Lord! We'd better get him out of here quick smart!" No, my guess is that the eavesdropper was kicked out for other reasons. Maybe it was Mundungus Fletcher who we know is not permitted there. Later Dumbledore learns about the fact that there was an eavesdropper from his spy in the Voldemort network (Snape most likely) and also what exactly he told Voldemort. > And why would Snape be all the way up in Scotland in > the Hog's Head when DD was interviewing a totally unremarkable woman > with no known gift for prophecy, and no track record of knowlege > about Dark Lord vanquishing? I don't think that Snape was the eavesdropper, rather he was the spy who reported what the eavesdropper said. Salit From manawydan at ntlworld.com Fri Aug 29 18:05:10 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:05:10 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy References: <1062120255.18244.14777.m5@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002701c36e58$16c39640$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 79204 lziner: >Good post :) I do not believe he will apologize. I do believe that >Molly will just be so happy he's "back in the fold" - no apology will >be necessary. Of course, to his brothers and father, an apology is >expected but I doubt Percy will "step-up" and admit he was wrong. I >bet he keeps his sweater this Christmas. Let's just hope Fred and >George give him hell. Percy owes Molly an apology, in fact two - one for slamming the door in her face, and one for sending back his Xmas present. With Arthur, I'd have to say that the dishonours are equal - Percy deserves an apology from Arthur for his accusation, which was not only hurtful but deeply undiplomatic. Why would Arthur think that Percy's new appointment would mean he was a likely spy for Fudge against the Order, rather than a likely spy for the Order in the Minister's office? Not a very high opinion of his son, really. But Percy, now that Fudge has been publicly shown to be an incompetent fool (and he didn't even need to be summoned by Lord Hutton...) has been cast adrift yet again. When Fudge "decides he wants to spend more time with his family" (assuming that's the phrase they use in the WW!), will his successor _want_ Percy as as assistant? Maybe it's time for Percy to write that long-overdue letter to Penny Clearwater and get some sensible advice about how to mend his fences... Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 18:08:58 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:08:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030829180858.29859.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79205 > Yeah, the fact that Snape calls Lily a mudblood is a > good indication that h= > e himself is > pureblood, but I still don't think it rules out the > possibility of his fath= > er being a squib > or muggleborn. This is what I think, but a friend gave an arguement, that I shall repeat here, that could reasonably argue that he is purebred, half-blood, and muggle-born. I also think there may be two or more different lines of purebred wizards in the Isles, of which Snape belongs to or he's not from the Isles, but the continent. Calling Lily Mudblood could mean he's purebred (see preceeding arguements). Of course, if he is half-blood (purebred parent A and muggle (or muggle born) parent B), then he could be trying to just fit in with the rest of the Slytherins by openly condemning muggle-borns. Or he could be hiding what he is, mixing in well with a father that is wizard from another purebred line, thus insuring his name is known to the Malfoy line as pure. If his father is from a little known branch, or a younger son, then his marriage would not be tracked well. This status and his insults to 'Mudbloods' would endear him Voldie as another who hates what he is (possibly a reason to why Voldie trusts/ed him so much). Lastly, and a bit of a stretch, is that Snape fulfilled the requirements for Slytherin, in all but the pure-bred status, as a muggle-born. In the first few hat speeches, it states that Slytherin has ambition as its main attribute, and not to later do we find out Slytherin wanted only purebreds, but the hat never said it excludes all but purebreds. Hence, little muggle-born Snape gets into Slytherin and in order for him to be reasonably accepted and not beaten up, he would need to denounce what he is. (This theory gives a little more creadance to why no one, not even Slytherins, but Lily helped Snape out in the memory) Another thought I had was why Lucius Malfoy liked Snape so much as an adult. I see the friendship as of conveinence, much like many of the list here. I think Malfoy saw Snape as a disallusioned child in his first two (three??) years of Hogwarts and saw the perfect canidate for Voldie (whether Malfory met Voldie before or after Hogwarts doesn't matter as he still knew Snape in school). So, through the DEs, Snape and Malfoy know each other and only play lip service to each other. I welcome constructive critism. Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 18:21:49 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:21:49 -0000 Subject: Swedish Cockatrice, and the basilisk as a Tri-Wizard task In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79206 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "evangelina839" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Fred Uloth wrote: > > I found this interesting, so I actually looked up the words > > > > Cockatrice (Latin in origin): a legendary serpent that is hatched > > by a reptile from a cock's egg and that has a deadly glance > > > > Basilisk (Greek in origin): a legendary reptile with fatal breath > > and glance > > I found ... them being the same thing. ... why DD wasn't aware > > that it was a basilisk running around Hogwarts.... I ... > > assumed that it was a very ancient animal that hadn't been seen > > for centuries. It also seems odd to me that a basilisk would have > > been one of the tri-wizard tasks. bboy_mn: Well, it hadn't been seen for centuries. That Tri-Wiz Tournement took place over 300 years ago. Although, 'Fantastic Beasts...' says a Basilisk hasn't been sighted in 400 years. > evangelina: > > ... I was beginning to think there was a serious mistake made > in the translition here, especially since I too found it odd that > they would put a basilisk as one of the tasks. ... How exactly would > they organise such a tri-wiz task? > > ...edited.. > > Also, was it common knowledge among all you English-speaking folk > that a cockatrice and a basilisk were the same animal? This is more > than a little bit confusing. > > evangelina bboy_mn: I don't think either of these words were at all common knowledge to anyone until JKR brought them up in her stories. Basilisk and Cockatrice - The difference? That's easy. A Basilisk has rooster like characteristics, and a Cockatrice has HEN like characteristics. Short version- Basilisk-male, Cockatrice=female. Interesting bit of info/trivia on Basilisks- The Basilisk also if killed shed poison as blood. The effectiveness to this was described in the following poem ("What though the Moor the basilisk hath slain, And pinned him lifeless to the sandy plain, Up through the spear the subtle venom flies, The hand imbibes it, and the victor dies.") The only creature that normally felt this venomic pain was the weasel, the one creature that would attack and kill these things only to in turn die itself. http://www.adumbral.com/occult/basilisk.html hummm.....weasel you say? It is a bit odd they they would us such a beast as a tri-wizards task, but it could be at that point in history they had much less regard for human life; to some extent, life was cheap, think gladiators. An additional point is that JKR's Basilisk is more snake like than the traditional Basilisk. See the link above for pictures of traditional Basilisks. There are some variations of the Basilisk where if IT looks at YOU then you turn to stone; in other version, if YOU look at IT, then you turn to stone. So the whole 'death by a look' mechanism is not clearly defined and JKR seems to have modified it slightly to suit her story. So the question becomes, in JKR's universe, how does the 'a look can kill you' thing work? In another post on why Myrtle's glasses didn't protect her, I speculated on various mechanisms to explain how various people were petrifies in CoS. It went something like this - Exactly how does a Basilisk kill you with a look? Do you have to look INTO it's eyes or do you merely have to see it's eyes? For example, if you were standing off to the side hiding, and you could see the Basilisk's head and therefore, it's eyes, would you die? I don't think so. I think that is how Tom Riddle was able to look at and command the Basilisk without being injured. It's not just seeing the Basilisk's eyes; it has to be eye-to-eye contact. So, let's refine it a bit further. If a basilisk looks into your eyes but you don't look into it's, or if you look into a basilisk's eyes but it doesn't look into yours would you be hurt or injure? This is harder to resolve, and I will point out, it's also much harder for this situation to occur. The best we can say is you would definitely be injured, and probably dead; but just probably. Of course, when you and the basilisk are looking directly into each other's eyes, you are dead dead dead. Although, Basilisk intent could also come into play. There could be a difference between a Basilisk looking into your eye, and looking into your eyes with deadly intent. I suspect this particular issue can never be resolved by anything but a random guess. - - - - - - I'm guessing in JKR's world, it takes eye-to-eye contact. Based on that, I wonder if you shielded your eyes somehow, think mirror/chrome sunglasses, if you could give yourself an advantage that would allow you to defeat the creature. If the student knew in advance and had time to research, they may have been able to come up with a way to give themselves a chance. I also wonder how many Basilisks they had at the Tri-Wiz tournement? Did they have 3 and each champion had to kill one, or did they just have one, and each champion had to get passed it or make it do something? Having 3 Basilisk seems even more unlikely than having one. Certainly, I posed far more questions than I answer, but there you have it. Just a thought. bboy_mn From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 29 18:24:27 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:24:27 -0000 Subject: Predestination (was Re: prophecy/Firenze) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79207 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "annemehr" wrote: > > Jen again: > > If, as Firenze states, even centaurs can be wrong (and they have a > > much better grasp of "the stars"), then I think the prophecy may > > tells us more about Harry's past, and the expectations others have placed on him, than about what Harry ultimately decides is his > > *destiny*. > Now annemehr: > I think these things you mention will certainly have a part in how > the prophecy works out, but at the time it was made, Harry had no > past, so it couldn't have been an extrapolation from his past. Jen: What I meant here was that the prophecy tells us *the readers* and Harry about his past, not that it's written about Harry's past. Up until the point we and Harry hear the prophecy, only Dumbledore and whoever else knows the prophecy are more or less "engineering" the fulfillment of the prophecy. Harry is *affected* by the prophecy and his life has so far been shaped by the prophecy, but that is in response to DD's plan and Voldemort's actions. He IS making choices consistent with fulfilling the prophecy, but not totally on his own. Now annemehr again: > > I don't think seeing the future equates to causing the future. I > also think Firenze is right about prophecies, and that Dumbledore > and Harry may well be mistaken in their interpretation. I fully > expect no one to actually realise it when the prophecy is coming > true until after the fact -- which means that Harry will be making > his decisions and doing what seems right as he normally does, until > it suddenly becomes apparant that Voldemort has been vanquished for > good. > > Unfortunately for us, *we* will probably have a fair idea of when > the prophecy is about to come true: somewhere fairly near to the end > of book seven! Jen again: What I'm trying to convey is that the prophecy doesn't have to come true, however it's interpreted. JKR is leading us to believe (or we're leading ourslves to believe) the prophecy equals the conclusion, but that seems like a very pat ending to me. I'm just suggesting and wondering myself whether the prophecy isn't merely another step on this journey of Harry Potter, and that there are other possibilities of where the story can go from here besides just the fulfillment of the prophecy. Jen From zanelupin at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 19:07:28 2003 From: zanelupin at yahoo.com (KathyK) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:07:28 -0000 Subject: Wizards regarding Muggles (was:Re: TBAY: Kirstini's big Theorising Adventure) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79208 Nicholas wrote: >>I'm sorry but I don't go along with the moral indignation of the posts concerning the WW's poor treatment of Muggles. Sure Muggles are treated badly by some wizards but the books don't endorse their behaviour. Frank's death in Chapter 1 of GoF was to show us what a baddie big V is and that is true of all the Muggle mistreatment in the series. The bad guys do the bad things to Muggles, the good guys stand for humane treatment of Muggles, like the way Harry and Ron leap to Hermione's defence every time she's called a mudblood.<< KathyK: Well, true, the books obviously don't show killing and tormenting Muggles as a good thing. But I am very hesitant to dismiss the idea that the WW mistreats muggles. I'd be curious as to what you think about the Muggle campground manager whose memory was constantly being modified in GoF. Because personally, I find the WW's treatment of muggles in this respect to be the most offensive. To rob someone of their own memory is a nasty violation. It may be wizarding law, and it may be for the good of the WW, but it doesn't make it right. I take this moment to apologize because in this rare moment I don't have my books on me, but I will plunge on regardless. If I recall, Harry actually does express some sort of concern for the campground manager who looks quite unwell after a Ministry official modifies his memory. Mr. Weasley (I think) assures him he need not worry as the man will be fine and the dazed effect will wear off. And the whole matter in the book was written very lightly. That was a case of the WW clearly abusing muggles,IMHO, and it wasn't Death Eaters doing it, but everyday wizards just doing their jobs. And even muggle-loving Arthur Weasley is not concerned about what is going on. So in this instance, JKR treats the abuse of muggles very casually, as if nothing is wrong with it. I'm sure others don't see it that way, but it has always bothered me. >>The books moral postion on Muggles is set by Dumbledore who IMO exemplifies the moral centre of the Potterverse. Dumbledore accepts and includes all kinds: free house elves, half-giants, were-wolves, Muggles, centaurs and vampires if Snape turns out to be one. He lectures Harry about how wizards have done terrible things to other 'races' and are now reaping their reward for past unjustice. The destruction of the Fountain of Magical Bretheren is symbolic of the forces of good ushering in a new order in which all wizard and muggle kinds will be accepted.<< I see Dumbledore accepting muggle-born witches and wizards. Where does it show that he accepts any muggle into the fold? In general I do agree Dumbledore does set a good example for wizards in his acceptance of all magical beings, but I just don't see it extending to muggles. Someone else wrote recently (apologies for not remembering who and being in too much of a hurry to look it up) regarding Dumbledore's treatment of the Dursleys when he shoved an unwanted Harry right onto them. How much choice did they get in the matter? How is that respecting and accepting muggles. True, this was the special case of Harry Potter, but still. >>Love is what saves Harry and it's what's going to destroy big V. So please don't pretend that JKR endorses the poor treatment of Muggles. The fun that is poked at them is just that, *fun* and is no different to the pokes she takes at wizards (the bureacracy for example).<< Oh, I think she more than pokes at the wizard bureaucracy. I think there she sends a strong message. >>Nicholas (hoping he hasn't missed the point here)<< KathyK (glad to have a little to say) From lziner at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 19:10:18 2003 From: lziner at yahoo.com (lziner) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:10:18 -0000 Subject: Muggle Practices/Religion/Weasley practices In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79209 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "lziner" wrote: > > > > > Perhaps you misunderstood - Harry Potter books are the most banned > > books in the US. Certain religious sects feel they are about > > witchcraft etc promote santanism etc. I meant, to imagine if she > > added pagan holidays as well... mugglenet a few weeks ago posted a > > book burning involving Harry Potter books. My point was that by > > leaving Christian holidays in the books - JKR provides a counter- > > point (although unecessarily) to the belief that HP books promote > > witchcraft and evil. > > > > I still believe that the sole purpose > > of JKR including holidays are for time frame and familiarity > (earlier > > post) > > > > lziner > > Well the only reason they are so banned is because they are so > popular. Diana Wynne Jones' books are no different except that > millions of kids aren't mad for Howl. (That is just the ladies) > > It provides a platform for fundamentalist Christians to speak about > what they fear is a dangerous irreligious part of modern culture. > The fact that we pay any mind to it, is what makes the view > powerful. But in reality it is an view not held by majority of > people/parents in America - as evidenced by America's very good sales > of HP. > > Also the reason they are the most banned is because lots of books > considered innapropriate (or in this case anti Christian) are simply > not stocked in many school or local libraries, but not necessarily > banned either. They are simply not bought and not considered at > all. HP was bought and then removed and its being so popular makes > the difference. When at 16 I asked for a copy of Lady Chatterly's > Lover (having it recommended by a friend) my school librarian turned > whiter than chalk and simply said they didn't have it. Was it > banned? I don't think exactly so - and thus it doesn't get listed > amongst the banned books. They didn't have a copy of the science > book I wanted either and that most certainly was not scandalous. > > That being said I don't think Rowling ever thought her books would be > banned or innapropriate for Christian children. I don't think that > is why she put in Christmas. If fundemntalists hate Harry Potter > when the kids celebrate Christmas, IMHO making the kids celebrate > Samhain or such would not likely alienate those that don't hate HP. > We would merely have encorporated it into the idea that Wizard > culture was different. > > I don't disagree about using the holidays as time keepers. It is very > much the way kids mark time. Birthdays to Christmas to easter to > summer holidays. However, what necessarily follows from having these > kids celebrate Christmas on mass (in a segregated society) is that > majority are most likely also Christian in some way. Especially > since the celebrate it in much the same way Muggles do. > > The media wanted to make a story out of HP and it let a minority take > centre stage because they were more fussy about what their children > read. Nothing more than something to sell newspapers. The book > burnings are nothing more than something that will motivate the media > to pay attention to what Christian fundamentalists want their > children to read. > > Those kids aren't likely to read the dozen or so things I read as a > child. I simply think the focus is on HP because it is so popular. > Reporting every book burning only gives these people power. They are > extremists. Why not focus on getting those kids a good science > education or something. We should have another monkey trial. The > focus on HP is silly on both sides. > > I don't know why they make such a fuss - What they don't like about > the books is clearly obvious from info on the back cover. The books > are about a boy who goes to a wizard school. Just censor their own > children's reading - why bother everyone else with their views? > > Golly I couldn't agree with you more. As a matter of fact, I bought the SS for my son (he is still too young to read it -5 yrs old). I had heard so many positive reviews. At a later date, I spoke with my mother who informed me I could not have bought a more terrible book for him. She, of course, heard this from a fundamentalist friend. I immediately sat down and read the book. Yep - refrained from buring it or sending it back. I read it. I then ordered the other 3 books. Now, I'm posting here. I just hope my son enjoys the books as much as I do. Hoping my son is still in elementary school when book six comes out :) lziner From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 29 19:14:17 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:14:17 -0000 Subject: Percy In-Reply-To: <002701c36e58$16c39640$db7d0550@f3b7j4> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79210 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" wrote: > With Arthur, I'd have to say that the dishonours are equal - Percy deserves > an apology from Arthur for his accusation, which was not only hurtful but > deeply undiplomatic. Why would Arthur think that Percy's new appointment > would mean he was a likely spy for Fudge against the Order, rather than a > likely spy for the Order in the Minister's office? Not a very high opinion > of his son, really. > > But Percy, now that Fudge has been publicly shown to be an incompetent fool > (and he didn't even need to be summoned by Lord Hutton...) has been cast > adrift yet again. When Fudge "decides he wants to spend more time with his > family" (assuming that's the phrase they use in the WW!), will his successor > _want_ Percy as as assistant? > > Maybe it's time for Percy to write that long-overdue letter to Penny > Clearwater and get some sensible advice about how to mend his fences... > > Cheers > > Ffred > Arthur did not accuse Percy of being a spy. He was concerned that Percy got his promotion because Fudge wanted to USE Percy as a spy. I did not get the impression that Arthur felt Percy would knowingly spy on them. I have also been wondering what will happen if, as a lot of posters feel, Arthur is made the new Minister of Magic. Since Percy was Fudge's assistant will Arthur keep him if there are no appologies or will he fire him or demote him? I think I'm getting a Weasley headache..... Susan > > O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon > Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion > Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Fri Aug 29 19:17:06 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:17:06 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:=5FWhere=5FSnape=5Fbelongs=5Fon=5Fthe=5Ffamily=5Ftree=85?= In-Reply-To: <20030829180858.29859.qmail@web12205.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79211 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > > Lastly, and a bit of a stretch, is that Snape > fulfilled the requirements for Slytherin, in all but > the pure-bred status, as a muggle-born. In the first > few hat speeches, it states that Slytherin has > ambition as its main attribute, and not to later do we > find out Slytherin wanted only purebreds, but the hat > never said it excludes all but purebreds. Hence, > little muggle-born Snape gets into Slytherin and in > order for him to be reasonably accepted and not beaten > up, he would need to denounce what he is. > > Chris He defenitely didn't grow up among muggles. At least according to Black, Snape knew a great number of curses when he came to Hogwarts. It's very likely he leart those either for self-protection or because he grew up in an environment where somebody (his father?) used them a lot. Marika (who likes Snape a lot, but in real life always would go for somebody like Lupin) From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 29 19:32:53 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:32:53 -0000 Subject: Prophecy problems (was Harry the Chosen) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79212 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > > I don't think she remembers, but it may still reside in some > subconscious part of her mind and can be retrieved with the right > kind of potions or spells. Why otherwise would Dumbledore hire > her and keep her at Hogwarts despite being a total incompetent? > Why would he order her to stay at Hogwarts even after she is fired? > Clearly he fears that Voldemort will capture her and extract the > prophecy from her subconscious memory. > Either that, or he wants to keep her around, in case that she makes another prophecy. I suppose it is possibly a mixture of both. Hickengruendler From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 19:38:56 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:38:56 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungo's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79213 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > I think the top two theories right now are that a.) they will somehow > detect a poison or drug on the wrappers or b.) there is a secret > message written on the wrappers. Other than those two I have trouble > coming up with other possibilities, but I'm open to suggestions. > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn Mlle: Oh! This just gave me a thought. Perhaps Neville's forgetfulness and clumsiness is caused by the handling of the tainted wrappers. Perhaps the poison (assuming there is one) can pass through the skin to some extent, thus impairing Nevilles faculties somewhat, but not to the extent of his parents, who are actually eating the gum. Mlle Bienvenu -Who is buying herself a ticket for the S S SILK GOWNS- From hickengruendler at yahoo.de Fri Aug 29 19:41:20 2003 From: hickengruendler at yahoo.de (hickengruendler) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:41:20 -0000 Subject: Prophecy problems (was Harry the Chosen) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79214 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > > No, I meant "how did DD know that the eavesdropper had gone and > informed Voldemort?" Sorry. Should have explained myself a bit better. > Apologies for short post. > Kirstini Dumbledore said, that he met Sybill in a room above the bar. That means, the eavesdropper was probably listening at the door. So Dumbledore probably supposed, that whoever listened at the dor, didn't have any good intentions and considered at least the possibility, that the eavesdropper was working for Voldeort. Why else would someone spy at Dumbledore at this critical time? Later Dumbledore's spy (probably Snape) told him, that Voldemort was after the Potters, and this confirmed Dumbledores suspicion. Hickengruendler From tminton at deckerjones.com Fri Aug 29 19:38:02 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 14:38:02 -0500 Subject: Umbridge???? Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE97C4@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79215 I was really surprised a few weeks back when the theories were out that Umbridge got raped by the centaurs. I am not sure what I thought they did do to her but rape was probably the farthest from my mind. So I decided you all are probably right so I have been reading and listening (OOP on CD, my children can also recite the HP series) to that chapter again and again because I am sure I missed that part. NOW DON"T GET ME WRONG, I believe that that horrible woman (using that term lightly) deserved what she got. But rape does seem like a really harsh punishment, that is so horrible that I would not wish it on anyone. Do you really think she got raped?? Explain this to me please I missed something!! Thanks in advance. Tonya [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 19:52:31 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:52:31 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's 'Plan' for Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79216 Nicholas wrote: And what is the 'flaw' in the plan? Dumbledore said that the flaw was delaying the revealation of why big V wanted to kill him. His reason for staying mum was to save Harry from the great burden it would place on him. DD's weakness was that he grew to love Harry and wanted to spare him further pain. But how does Harry knowing about the prophesy change the plan? Tom replies: It doesn't, at least, not if I'm following Dumbledore here. The flaw in Dumbledore's plan was that he grew to love Harry too much, too much to force himself to tell Harry the truth about the prophecy and drop such a weight on such young shoulders (that cared about so much.) In other words, the plan involved TELLING Harry about the prophecy, which he didn't, because of the flaw in the plan: Dumbledore would grow to love Harry. Voldemort exploited Dumbledore's weakness (love) by tricking Harry and leading him to the Department of Mysteries under false pretenses. Dumbledore tells us that Voldemort never should have been able to do this, and that if he, Dumbledore, had stuck to the plan and told Harry about the prophecy, then this never would have happened. In other words, part of Dumbledore's plan involved revealing this information to Harry; but because one of the failings of old age is that it can sometimes forget what it is like to be young, Dumbledore did not tell Harry the truth. Thus, much of the weight of the tragic events at the end of OoP is Dumbledore's fault. As for the rest of the plan, well, I don't think he made that clear. Is that what you meant? -Tom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 20:04:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:04:20 -0000 Subject: Basilisk vs Cockatrice, - revised In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79217 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" wrote: > > bboy_mn: > > Basilisk and Cockatrice - The difference? That's easy. A Basilisk > has rooster like characteristics, and a Cockatrice has HEN like > characteristics. Short version- Basilisk=male, Cockatrice=female. > > ...edited... > > Just a thought. > > bboy_mn bboy_mn: Here is another link to a website with info about the Basilisk/Cockatrice. http://www.virtualworldlets.net/Papers/Hosted/Basilisk.php It seems that the original legend of the Basilisk protray it as a very small snake with a rooster like comb. However, the legend was transformed in the Middle Ages into something more resembling a Hypogryph-like combination of a rooster and a dragon. So, I think JKR has treated these as two separate creatures. Something along this line, although still not comforming completely to the traditional myths- Basilisk - legend says small and snake-like. JKR says extremely large snake-like monster with killing capability similar too but not including all aspect of the legendary Basilisk. Cocktrice - The front of a cockatrice is like a rooster; head, body, feet. The back and wings are like that of a dragon. Although, it is not clear if this creature is dragon size or rooster size. Note the Hypogryph's eagle portion has been enlarged to the scale of a horse. I sense that with the Cockatrice, the dragon aspect have been reduced to the scale of the rooster. However, I have seen artwork that portrays the Cockatrice on the large scale of dragon. Exactly how closely the Cockatrice's killing capability comforms to the legendary Cockatrice in JKR's world is unknown. So, if we treat these as two separate animal, JKR may have modified the Cockatrice sufficiently to make it less than totally insane to include in a Tri-Wiz task. Trivia - Basilisk in Greek means 'little king', however, translated into Latin it becomes REGULUS. hummm..... Regulus... where have I heard that name before? http://www.occultopedia.com/b/basilisk.htm A cockatrice is created when a serpent steals and successfully hatches a chickens egg. It may also be born from a spherical, yolkless egg, laid during the days of Sirius (the Dog Star) by a seven-year-old rooster and hatched by a toad. This site also says that the creature is about the size of a cat. Its breath is also considered fatal. One recorded incident says that Pope Leo IV was to have delivered Rome from a pestilence brought by its breath. The basilisk is also the common name for a genus of lizards from the iguana family. They are harmless omnivores, which live in tropical America from Ecuador to Mexico. They have four limbs and can run at high speed on their hind legs and are well known to be able to run across water. http://www.blackforestpoultry.com/history.html Just wanted to pass that along. bboy_mn From slgazit at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 29 20:12:31 2003 From: slgazit at sbcglobal.net (slgazit) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:12:31 -0000 Subject: Umbridge???? In-Reply-To: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE97C4@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79218 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonya Minton" wrote: > I believe that that horrible woman (using that term lightly) > deserved what she got. But rape does seem like a really harsh > punishment, that is so horrible that I would not wish it on anyone. Do > you really think she got raped?? Explain this to me please I missed > something!! Thanks in advance. I personally don't believe she was raped. For two reasons: I can't imagine any woman writer, especially one as sensitive as JKR, using rape as a punishment, even towards such a disgusting character. The second reason is the nurse's assertion that there was nothing wrong with her except for shock. She would not have said so if Umbridge was raped. And let's not forget. This is a children book. Do you really think that gang rape has any place in it? How would that advance the story? Umbridge was in shock at being manhandled and held captive by a group of creatures she considered sub-humans at best, not to mention needing rescue from the person she supposedly replaced. I think this is a very fitting punishment for her. Salit From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 29 20:17:38 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:17:38 -0000 Subject: Snape in SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79219 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Potterfanme" wrote: > > > I think this is able to happen. But I wonder if Malfoy isn't > involved more than you may think. If I remember correctly, Malfoy is > the reason Bode was in St. Mungos. It would then fit that he was the > elderly wizard with the ear trumpet. If he was visiting Bode and > donating so much money to St. Mungos, couldn't he be the one who is > poisoning the gum or having it poisoned? I think he may possibly be > having Snape make the potion that is used but he may not be telling > Snape what he needs the potion for. Interesting.... > Let's not forget, though, that there is one other person in that ward who could be a witness: Lockhart! And he's starting to regain his memory. He might end up with more to contribute to the story, especially if he recalls a frequent visitor to the Longbottoms, either Snape or someone else. Wanda From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Fri Aug 29 20:21:28 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:21:28 -0000 Subject: Percy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79220 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Potterfanme" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "manawydan" > wrote: > > With Arthur, I'd have to say that the dishonours are equal - Percy > deserves > > an apology from Arthur for his accusation, which was not only > hurtful but > > deeply undiplomatic. Why would Arthur think that Percy's new > appointment > > would mean he was a likely spy for Fudge against the Order, rather > than a > > likely spy for the Order in the Minister's office? Not a very high > opinion > > of his son, really. > > > Arthur did not accuse Percy of being a spy. He was concerned that > Percy got his promotion because Fudge wanted to USE Percy as a spy. I > did not get the impression that Arthur felt Percy would knowingly spy > on them. > I have also been wondering what will happen if, as a lot of posters > feel, Arthur is made the new Minister of Magic. Since Percy was > Fudge's assistant will Arthur keep him if there are no appologies or > will he fire him or demote him? > I think I'm getting a Weasley headache..... > Susan Hi Susan~ I think that Percy will be out the door when Arthur becomes MoM. In political office, when the boss goes, everyone else goes, too. (honest.. having worked in politics for years) That is why Umbridge wants Fudge to stay in office. *Job security*. And I think that when your father is at deaths door and you *still* don't come and see him or send a note, you *really* don't like the man. Even if he is his (Percy's) father. Honestly, Ron was right, Percy would throw his family to the dememtors given half a chance. ("All for the good you know." states Percy with his very superior nose in the air) Tj who, really understands Percy, but, still finds she doesn't like him a lot. From tminton at deckerjones.com Fri Aug 29 20:20:49 2003 From: tminton at deckerjones.com (Tonya Minton) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 15:20:49 -0500 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Umbridge???? Message-ID: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE97C5@djmail.deckerjones.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79221 Salit said And let's not forget. This is a children book. Do you really think that gang rape has any place in it? How would that advance the story? Now Me (Tonya): WOW gang rape even sounds worse to me. You are absolutely correct I cannot believe that ANY sort of rape would be put in a children's book. THANKS THANKS!! Now I don't feel like I really missed something huge. Salit said Umbridge was in shock at being manhandled and held captive by a group of creatures she considered sub-humans at best, not to mention needing rescue from the person she supposedly replaced. I think this is a very fitting punishment for her. Now me (Tonya) This is what I originally thought when I first read the scene. Tonya (Who is feeling much much better and is hoping that Umbridge gets put in St. Mungo's and get Droobles Blowing Gum fed to her in massive quanities!! (Yes, I am sure the gum is tainted) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Fri Aug 29 20:31:24 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:31:24 -0000 Subject: Umbridge???? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79222 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "slgazit" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonya Minton" > wrote: ~snip~ > I personally don't believe she was raped. For two reasons: I can't > imagine any woman writer, especially one as sensitive as JKR, > using rape as a punishment, even towards such a disgusting > character. The second reason is the nurse's > assertion that there was nothing wrong with her except for shock. > She would not have said so if Umbridge was raped. > > Umbridge was in shock at being manhandled and held captive by > a group of creatures she considered sub-humans at best, not to > mention needing rescue from the person she supposedly replaced. > I think this is a very fitting punishment for her. > > Salit Hi Salit~ I have been thinking about this post and responded to one of the early posts about Umbridge, and thinking that she had been, (only because being a greek myths buff... I have read about Centaurs for ages).. and having said that, getting drunk and raping women was at the top of their list of fun activities. But, what if she *wasn't* raped. What if they gave her some wine, and she got real *friendly* with them! Hummm? Yes, little miss hater of half breeds, getting all lovie dovie over a half horse, half man? Hummm, what if the reason DD brought Umbridge out so with such ease was 'cause the Centaurs wanted her *gone*. She was throwing herself at all of good looking Centaurs and they were afraid she was gonna attack them? .. I know silly, but, still something I havent' seen posted. Tj From stevejjen at earthlink.net Fri Aug 29 20:58:08 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:58:08 -0000 Subject: Predestination (was Re: prophecy/Firenze) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79223 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "boyd_smythe" wrote: > As we've all debated to infinity and beyond, "live" in the prophecy > can mean many things. Harry could, for example, allow LV to "live" by forsaking his responsibility and simply running away forever--or at least until he is found and destroyed. He could give up and die. He could choose to walk into the battle already defeated in his own heart, and allow LV to finish him off with little fight. These are all dangers to which JKR has alluded constantly in books 1-5. Harry certainly fought hopelessness for much of book 5, and that looks to take center stage in book 6. > Then there is his other option. He could try his best to stop LV from > destroying his newfound life, his friends, his classmates, and the WW as we know it. Yes, he will know that it may take the supreme sacrifice--his life--but he may still choose to do so for the good of > everyone who has given him this second life. (Life at the Dursleys > being the first.) > > We are all born into the responsibility to try to make a positive > contribution in this world; Harry's potential contribution simply has > larger repercussions than most readers'. IMO that is the belief behind JKR's focus on choices. Jen: It's not that I don't think Harry would choose to defeat LV--he is portrayed as a very loyal person who is willing to save others at the expense of himself. And LV's destruction also impacts him personally, with the deaths of his parents and Sirius. So, Harry does have numerous choices and ways that the prophecy could be fulfilled. My question remains, though--why are we so sure the prophecy will be fulfilled? In a way, we the readers have been on a journey that parallels Harry's life. We started out with limited information, each book adds to our knowledge about Harry and Harry's knowledge about his own life. Now we the readers, and Harry, have the prophecy to explain how we and Harry got to this point. So, the next two books could be the fulfillment of the prophecy, with twists and turn along the way--no matter, we're sure this is the road we're headed down, fulfillment of the prophecy. I'm just positing that we aren't headed to that conclusion. I'm not saying the prophecy is a red herring, just the series is chock-full of examples of falliability, plans going awry, people not acting as they should and the like. Dumbledore's master plan to assist Harry with fulfilling the prophecy has worked so far, but what if ....what if there's a little door over to the side, another outcome that could be equally possible. I'm really just saying the prophecy doesn't HAVE to be fulfilled in the end. Jen From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 20:59:34 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:59:34 -0800 Subject: A Possible FILK (was Re: [HPforGrownups] Lily's Eyes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030828235648.00a76cf0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 79224 At 07:49 PM 8/27/2003 +0000, angelberri56 wrote: >This is really random, and probably has nothing to do with Harry, >but I just thought I might put it out there.... > >I was reading a post about Lily's eyes, and a thought just popped >into my head. In "The Secret Garden", which is a musical, and >also a book, there's a song called "Lily's Eyes"... It goes >something like... > >"He has her eyes, >He has Lily's hazel eyes..." Thanks...now I've got the beginnings of a FILK going to the tune of "Betty Davis Eyes" by some raspy voiced chick...I'm thinking Kim Carnes...stuck in my head. all adults say he looks like his dad, He's got Lily Evans' eyes. I haven't heard that song since the eighties...so there is no way I'd be able to finish this one. Maybe I'll have to dig up the song and work on this...could be my first FILK. From silmariel at telefonica.net Fri Aug 29 21:04:34 2003 From: silmariel at telefonica.net (Carolina) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:04:34 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200308292304.34172.silmariel@telefonica.net> No: HPFGUIDX 79225 Jumping into the zodiac pool: Draco can be Cancer. Jealous, inmature, loyal (to slytherin house), acting by the mood he has that day, not standing laughs on him, likes family, likes to take revenge (also a Scorpio and Virgo trait). Adding details, he can have Scorpio as Ascendent, Moon in Virgo, Mercury in Gemini and Venus in Libra. Sirius is touched by Saggitaurus somehow, I see Snape as a Scorpio/Virgo, Dumbledore can be an eagle Scorpio. silmariel From redfish5 at onetel.com Fri Aug 29 21:07:25 2003 From: redfish5 at onetel.com (sebfish5) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:07:25 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79226 This has probably been mentioned before but I have seen no sign of it. Harry Potter, as worked out by the fans, is set in 1991, due to the deathday cake. However, in book one (which I have leant, along with 2, to a unbeliever, so I cannot give exact quotations) "You could let me stay in the house?" said harry hopefully, he could watch dudleys T.V and maybe have a go on dudleys playstation for change. In 1991, unless I am VERY much mistaken, being a videogame player, the playstation 1 was not around. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am 99% sure that the playstation was not released six years before the N64, on may 1st 1997. If i am correct, then when is Harry Potter set, or has this argument been cleared up? Seb From wsherratt3338 at rogers.com Fri Aug 29 21:04:14 2003 From: wsherratt3338 at rogers.com (Wanda Sherratt) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:04:14 -0000 Subject: Predestination (was Re: prophecy/Firenze) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79227 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Jen again: What I'm trying to convey is that the prophecy doesn't > have to come true, however it's interpreted. JKR is leading us to > believe (or we're leading ourslves to believe) the prophecy equals > the conclusion, but that seems like a very pat ending to me. I'm just > suggesting and wondering myself whether the prophecy isn't merely > another step on this journey of Harry Potter, and that there are > other possibilities of where the story can go from here besides just > the fulfillment of the prophecy. > > That makes logical sense, and if this were happening in real life I'd agree, but I just don't think it's doable in a novel. JKR has invested too much in this particular prophecy to be able to abandon it at the very end. She made the whole of Book 5 revolve around it - protecting the prophecy from LV, Harry going to the MoM to find the prophecy, and finally Dumbledore revealing the prophecy. It would be an enormous cheat to build so much around this particular plot point and then say at the end, "Just kidding! It's not really important at all!" These are still children's books, and children are very insistent on people keeping their promises; I think they'd be totally bewildered if Rowling were to pull the rug out in that way. It reminds me of the dishonest ending to the Disney movie, "Aladdin", where the Princess is told that she can't marry Aladdin, the law says she must marry a prince. "Well, then, change the law!" is the solution. Adults can laugh at such a "twist" ending, but it completely violates the spirit of a fairy tale. The rules have to be followed, no matter how arbitrary; in fact, the more arbitrary, the better. Cinderella must leave the ball by midnight; Bluebeard's wife must not open the forbidden room; the queen must guess Rumplestiltskin's name in 3 days or lose her child. You can't just change the rules in a fairy tale, and for better or for worse, HP IS a modern fairy tale. The most you can do is outwit the rules, and I suspect Rowling may do that. We'll find that there is another interpretation of the prophecy that we haven't suspected, and it will be "fulfilled" in a not-obvious way. That's if there is to be a happy ending and Harry is to survive; I tend to think that that's not going to happen, but we'll have to wait and see. Wanda From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 29 21:11:36 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:11:36 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: <74.31ea4ed3.2c7fa3b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79228 If I might return to this item having read a number of the posts on the thread. Crouch/Moody in GOF describes the three as either "unforgiveable curses" or "illegal curses". I took the first as it is the chapter heading. My dictionary defines "curse" as "an appeal to a supernatural power to inflict harm on someone or something" or "a cause of harm or misery". Assuming that the Wizarding World uses a similar definition, Avada Kevadra, Cruciatus and Imperius are /not/ seen as being used in a positive way. Other spells are referred to as hexes or jinxes or charms. I hope that there is no death penalty in the WW - we saw too many examples of miscarriages of justice in the UK while the penalty was still in force and one gets the impression there has to be the right degree of hate or power behind it - as Crouch/Moody puts it "Avada Kevadra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose-bleed." Again, some folk have suggested that the Cruciatus curse could be used on limited areas or in limited ways. I get the impression that the Cruciatus curse is a very blunt instrument: "...before Harry could do anything to defend himself, before he could even move, he had been hit again by the Cruciatus curse. The pain was so intense, so all-consuming, that he no longer knew where he was.... white-hot knives were piercing every inch of his skin, his head was surely going to burst with pain; he was screaming more loudly than he'd ever screamed in his life -" Doesn't sound very positive..... Perhaps unforgiveable is too strong but certainly worthy of a prison sentence in my view. Geoff From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 21:13:46 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:13:46 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79229 Seb wrote: "You could let me stay in the house?" said harry hopefully, he could watch dudleys T.V and maybe have a go on dudleys playstation for change. In 1991, unless I am VERY much mistaken, being a videogame player, the playstation 1 was not around. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am 99% sure that the playstation was not released six years before the N64, on may 1st 1997. If i am correct, then when is Harry Potter set, or has this argument been cleared up? Tom replies: I have heard this previously, although it was so long ago that I can't find the post on the message board. Perhaps someone more intimately involved in the argument at the time will recall the number of the post. I believe that this was resolved by calling it a FLINT, although again, I'm not one-hundred-percent on that. -Tom From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Fri Aug 29 21:19:18 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:19:18 -0000 Subject: significant dates (was characters' star signs) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79230 > > Mtwelovett wrote: > > She may have meant it. JK has used Holidays as significant days > > throughout the books. Lots of things happen for her on > > > Halloween, The Potters' death, the death of Nearly Headless > > Nick, the "troll in the dungeon", the attacking of the Fat > > Lady by Sirius Black ffimiles" wrote: > I agree, there is something in Hallowe'en - more than it just > being an easily-identifiable day for her to say 'something > happened on this day', > definately not a coincidance that it's the day on which Harry > received his scar, and when he was (possibly) conceived. I think JKR is tapping into British mythology about Halloween. Halloween is an odd night. It signals the death of summer and the rise of winter. It's also the night before one of the holiest days in the Christian calendar (All Saints, or in the old English dialect, All Hallows). Between them, the combination has given rise to the persistent myth that Halloween is when evil is at its most powerful. So the events on Halloween make perfect sense. Voldemort times his attack against Baby Harry on Halloween, when he is most powerful. Quirrelmort brings the Troll in and attacks the stone when he is at his most powerful. Sirius loses his temper (gives way to evil?) on Halloween. Possibly Nick's execution may have been unjust? JKR's also used other Halloween myths. The Headless Hunt who turn up at Nick's party *do* ride at Halloween. The Halloween Feast that's always held is a traditional celebration. It is *not* a celebration of evil, as is sometimes suggested. The parties, bonfires, feasting are all held as a defiance of evil. Winter is here - but we can light a bonfire. Evil lurks outside - but does it dare come inside and face the lights and the noise? So Hogwarts holds a Halloween Feast, making sure that whatever evil is lurking in the cold and dark *outside*, its students are all safely inside. Meanwhile, evil takes advantage of its night of power. Somehow I doubt that Harry was conceived on Halloween itself. However, Voldemort may well have *thought* he was. ;-) Pip!Squeak [Muggle Britain now holds the Halloween Feast in two parts. Halloween itself, and Bonfire Night on November 5th. I notice that the Hogwarts students *don't* celebrate Bonfire Night, which dates from the early 17th Century] From gbannister10 at aol.com Fri Aug 29 21:24:40 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:24:40 -0000 Subject: The smoke serpent In-Reply-To: <74.31ea4ed3.2c7fa3b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79231 I don't think this has been raised in a thread previously but I am puzzled as to its importance having just reached it on my fifth reading. Anyone got a view? OOTP Chapter 22 pp.415-6 UK Bloomsbury edition. "Dumbledore now swooped down on one of the fragile silver instruments whose function Harry had never known,carried it over to his desk, sat down facing them again and tapped it gently with the tip of his wand. The instrument tinkled into life at once with rhythmic clinking noises. Tiny puffs of pale green smoke issued from the miniscule silver tube at the top. Dumbledore watched the smoke closely, his brow furrowed. After a few seconds, the tiny puffs became a steady stream of smoke that thickened and coiled in the air... a serpent's head grew out of the end of it, opening its mouth wide. Harry wondered whether the instrument was confirming his story: he looked eagerly at Dumbledore for a sign that he was right, but Dumbledore did not look up. "Naturally, naturally", murmured Dumbledore, apparently to himself, still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of surprise. "But in essence divided?" Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The smoke serpent, however, split instantly into two snakes, both coiling and undulating in the dark air. With a look of grim satisfaction, Dumbledore gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand: the clinking noise slowed and died and the smoke serpents grew faint, became a formless haze and vanished." OK, so what's all this about? Something to do with Harry being "inside" the snake yet separate from it? Answers on a postcard please! Geoff From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 17:49:25 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:49:25 -0000 Subject: Mimbulus/Mimulus Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79232 Looking around for some info on "mimbulus" (which does not exist!), but found this info on "mimulus" and thought it was interesting concering Neville: "Mimulus is the remedy for known fears. In other words whenever you are frightened of something or you are anxious about something, and you can say what that something is, then Mimulus is the remedy to take. Mimulus fears are everyday fears - fear of public speaking, of the dark, of aggressive dogs, or of illness or pain. Mimulus is used as a type remedy for people who tend to be nervous, timid and shy generally. Sometimes people of this type may blush easily or stammer, and they will usually avoid social occasions and any event where they will be in the limelight. Mimulus is the remedy to encourage the quiet courage and strength that lies hidden in such people, so that they can face the everyday trials of life with steadfastness." Sounds like we may be hearing a lot more from Neville and his Mimbulus Mimbletonia in the next book! Entropy From tubadave at normalview.com Fri Aug 29 18:14:42 2003 From: tubadave at normalview.com (tubadave) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:14:42 -0000 Subject: Prophecy problems (was Harry the Chosen) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79233 Kirstini: > > Also, remember that DD controls the version of the prophecy that > > Harry hears, and all those pauses at least offer the possibility > > that what he shows Harry is edited. slgazit: > That would make sense except that it would make Dumbledore an > outright liar. He told Harry at the beginning of their conversation > that he would "tell him everything". Since he has always shown > himself an honorable man, I am sure what we have seen is the entire > prophecy. Now me: Quite true...I doubt that Dumbledore withheld any of the prophecy from him. The pauses seem to just be the way Trelawney speaks (or is spoken through) when making the prophecy, and happens again when she makes the prophecy about Wormtail and LV to Harry in PoA. Dave From phluxist at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 18:49:29 2003 From: phluxist at yahoo.com (phluxist) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:49:29 -0000 Subject: Free will and predestination In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79234 There has been a lot of very interesting points brought up about how the prophecy might be interpreted and/or how it might play out. In contrast, there has also been some really exciting chat here about predestination vrs free will. As these seem to be strong themes in JK's writing, I believe they will grow in discordance as we discover new information in the last two books. (Forgive me if someone has already offered a theory such as this) The prophecy is real. DD believes it. The MoM obviously puts a lot of faith in such matters. Although the concept of fortune-telling sometimes may be vague at best, prophecies such as the two that Trelawny has *seen* are significant. In contrast, free will is also a very significant part of the story. The DD/Harry interactions have focused a lot of the choices we make, and not the past that we inherit. Regarding the outcome of the prophecy, I believe that in the last moment Harry will have to choose between revenge and compassion. He will have to choose between killing Voldemort to avenge his parents (and the rest of the wizarding community) and forgiving him. Harry has already choosen to forgive others in the story, and DD has remarked that this will turn out in his best interest. But... then you ask, what about the prophecy? Someone is supposed to die at the hand of the other! Well, I believe that to be true, just not in the way many people expect. I feel that Harry will choose compassion before revenge, and in doing so, he will *choose* to have mercy on Voldemort. And as DD has said before, there are worse things than death. Voldemort, not knowing compassion, mercy, or forgiveness.... not being able to even withstand possessing Harry's body becuase it contains so much unrequited love, cannot possibly tolerate this act of kindness. Voldemort will then kill himself, or at least in some way he will die, despite Harry *choosing* to spare him. In this way, both free will and the prophecy will be fulfilled. Just a thought, Phlux From thomasmwall at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 21:43:03 2003 From: thomasmwall at yahoo.com (Tom Wall) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:43:03 -0000 Subject: Harry the Chosen (was Thoughts about Voldy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79235 Jim attributed this line to me (Tom): WRONG! As much as I really, really like the `Harry is related to G. Gryffindor' theory I this it's wrong. However I do think that the `Harry is the Heir of Gryffindor' theory is completely on. Tom adds: Just a clarification: I was actually quoting someone *else* when I used this. I think the actual source was 'Loony,' though I don't remember the member-name... I think the confusion came because I quoted two paragraphs of Loony's, and didn't make that clear. Sorry for any confusion! -Tom From entropymail at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 20:25:28 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:25:28 -0000 Subject: Snape in SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79236 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Potterfanme" > wrote: > > > Malfoy > is > > the reason Bode was in St. Mungos. (snip>I think he may possibly > > be having Snape make the potion that is used but he may not be > >telling Snape what he needs the potion for. Interesting.... "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > Let's not forget, though, that there is one other person in that > ward who could be a witness: Lockhart! And he's starting to regain > his memory. He might end up with more to contribute to the story, > especially if he recalls a frequent visitor to the Longbottoms, > either Snape or someone else. > > Wanda There's is a point in OoP when Sirius refers to Snape as Malfoy's "lapdog", which I thought at the time was interesting. We've never seen Snape have much of a relationship with Malfoy. If anything, Malfoy should hate Snape for turning towards Dumbledore and away from the DEs. So, the question is, is Sirius referring to something going on between the two that we don't know about, or is it something that went on years ago when Snape was still a DE? Entropy (who has to go get some work done now!) From rubykelly at webtv.net Fri Aug 29 21:51:07 2003 From: rubykelly at webtv.net (rubyxkelly) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:51:07 -0000 Subject: The smoke serpent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79237 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I don't think this has been raised in a thread previously but I am > puzzled as to its importance having just reached it on my fifth > reading. Anyone got a view? > > OOTP Chapter 22 pp.415-6 UK Bloomsbury edition. > > "Dumbledore now swooped down on one of the fragile silver instruments > whose function Harry had never known,carried it over to his desk, sat > down facing them again and tapped it gently with the tip of his wand. > The instrument tinkled into life at once with rhythmic clinking > noises. Tiny puffs of pale green smoke issued from the miniscule > silver tube at the top. Dumbledore watched the smoke closely, his > brow furrowed. After a few seconds, the tiny puffs became a steady > stream of smoke that thickened and coiled in the air... a serpent's > head grew out of the end of it, opening its mouth wide. Harry > wondered whether the instrument was confirming his story: he looked > eagerly at Dumbledore for a sign that he was right, but Dumbledore > did not look up. > > "Naturally, naturally", murmured Dumbledore, apparently to himself, > still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of > surprise. "But in essence divided?" > > Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The smoke > serpent, however, split instantly into two snakes, both coiling and > undulating in the dark air. With a look of grim satisfaction, > Dumbledore gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand: the > clinking noise slowed and died and the smoke serpents grew faint, > became a formless haze and vanished." > > OK, so what's all this about? Something to do with Harry > being "inside" the snake yet separate from it? Answers on a postcard > please! > > Geoff I kind of inteprete this to mean that, although LX is "coonected" to Harry, he does not or cannot actually "possess" himthey're "in essence, divided". KAT/rxk From mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 21:52:40 2003 From: mlle_bienvenu at hotmail.com (mlle_bienvenu) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:52:40 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79238 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dream_catcher3010" wrote: > > I'd like to nominate Sirius (and to a lesser extent, possibly Snape > and Draco I think) as Scorpios. Scorpios are the most intense and > powerful signs of the zodiac. That power can be used fly like an > eagle or be underhanded. They always get what they want no matter how > long they have to wait, even revenge. Scorpios possess an extremely > loyal streak and may exert themselves to extremes to prove their > worth and love to family and friends. They are emotional people that > can be quick tempered and who make for terrible enemies. They try to > protect this emotional side of themselves by becoming secretive about > their personal life. As a fixed sign they can be rather stubborn and > resistant to imposed changes. > > Regards, > Rachel Mlle: As a Scorpio myself, I agree with your assesment of Snape as a Scorpio (and it has nothing at all to do with the fact that I happen to like Snape very much...nope, not at all) Another interesting thing about the scorpio is that it's associated both with the serpent and the phoenix. (http://www.fantasyworlds.org/fortune/scorpio.html) Which seems fitting for Snape, as he's Head of Slytherin and also a member of the Order. I would also like to point out that a better candidate than Draco for possible scorpio is Tom Riddle/Voldemort (unfortunatly for all us scorpios) Voldemort fills almost all of the characteristic Scorpio traits. To quote your post above: "Scorpios are the most intense and powerful signs of the zodiac. That power can be used fly like an eagle or be underhanded. They always get what they want no matter how long they have to wait, even revenge. Scorpios possess an extremely loyal streak and may exert themselves to extremes to prove their worth and love to family and friends. They are emotional people that can be quick tempered and who make for terrible enemies. They try to protect this emotional side of themselves by becoming secretive about their personal life. As a fixed sign they can be rather stubborn and resistant to imposed changes." This just seems to be LV/Tom all over... Mlle Bienvenu For everything you ever wanted to know about scorpios: http://www.scorpiosite.com/ From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 21:55:03 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:55:03 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79239 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tom Wall" wrote: > Seb wrote: > "You could let me stay in the house?" said harry hopefully, he could > watch dudleys T.V and maybe have a go on dudleys playstation for > change. > > In 1991, unless I am VERY much mistaken, being a videogame player, > the playstation 1 was not around. Please correct me if I am wrong, > but I am 99% sure that the playstation was not released six years > before the N64, on may 1st 1997. > > If i am correct, then when is Harry Potter set, or has this > argument been cleared up? > > Tom replies: > I have heard this previously, although it was so long ago that I > can't find the post on the message board. Perhaps someone more > intimately involved in the argument at the time will recall the > number of the post. > > I believe that this was resolved by calling it a FLINT, although > again, I'm not one-hundred-percent on that. > > -Tom I once heard someone say that, although the playstation was not around in England or the US in 1991, they did have it in Japan. I don't know if this info is correct. The person went on to say that they thought Dudley's parents had sent to Japan for it, something I could easily accept as he is so spoiled. But even if it is not correct that they had Playstation in Japan in '91, I still wouldn't call it a Flint. I don't believe JKR actually was meaning to date the books when she wrote them, I think she meant them to be more of a timeless story for the ages type thing. The pinning down of the exact dates of everything is something that came about because of the fans. If anything, she erred by writing down the date of Nick's death, allowing us fans to get a foothold to speculate. Erin From pegruppel at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 21:58:14 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 21:58:14 -0000 Subject: Snape in SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79240 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" wrote: Big Snip DD will stick with Snape. Leading to, at the end, a scene at DD's office, explaining Snape's real situation to Harry. > More snipping now me: I'm starting to get paranoid about being paranoid about Snape. He's an easy scapegoat for everything that goes wrong. Yes, he appears to have made Harry more vulnerable to LV through the Occlumency lessons, but there's no information to indicate that things would have been different if DD had been the one to give the lessons. It's possible that Snape's attempts to break into Harry's mind simply had the unfortunate side effect of making him more open to LV, and that Snape had no idea that he was doing so. I expect that are certainly better ways to teach Occlumency, but Snape just chose the way that would beat Harry up the most. And I think we now know why DD is inclined to trust Snape: DD says that he is a Legilimens (OOP, p. 832, American edition). And DD is a truly powerful wizard. Even if Snape could block him using Occlumens, DD would surely know that he was *being* blocked. Snape had to open up completely to DD, otherwise any reservations on his part would have been sensed by DD and Snape would have been packed off to Azkaban with the rest of the DEs. The whole point here is that I agree with Liliana--we are headed for a great big showdown between Snape, DD, and Harry. It may not be in Book 6, but Harry will learn why DD trusts Snape. And I think the trust (like him or not) is probably warranted. If he isn't trustworthy, I was involved in an exchange a few weeks ago that involved LV cutting Snape's heart out with a melon baller, and I'd buy tickets for that if Snape's a traitor. Peg From erinellii at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 22:03:16 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:03:16 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79241 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: >> I hope that there is no death penalty in the WW - we saw too many > examples of miscarriages of justice in the UK while the penalty was > still in force and one gets the impression there has to be the right degree of hate or power behind it - as Crouch/Moody puts it "Avada Kevadra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose-bleed." Geoff Just want to say that yes, there IS a death penalty, the dementor's kiss. Though what they'll use now that the dementors have gone over to Voldy, I don't know... Erin From pegruppel at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 22:10:04 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:10:04 -0000 Subject: Umbridge???? In-Reply-To: <8D5AD53268720840968E25CB71EC7CAE97C5@djmail.deckerjones.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79242 Snip > Now Me (Tonya): > WOW gang rape even sounds worse to me. You are absolutely correct I > cannot believe that ANY sort of rape would be put in a children's book. > THANKS THANKS!! Now I don't feel like I really missed something huge. > snip > Salit said > Umbridge was in shock at being manhandled and held captive by > a group of creatures she considered sub-humans at best, not to > mention needing rescue from the person she supposedly replaced. > I think this is a very fitting punishment for her. snip Now me: When I first read the posts claiming that Umbridge was raped, I was shocked at the thought that the subject would creep into what is marketed as a children's book. (I'm not sure the books fit into the category anymore, but let's let that pass.) Then I found that most of the proponents of the theory were basing their ideas on the behavior of centaurs in Greek mythology. I've never believed that all of the magical creatures in the books are necessarily going to behave exactly like their Hellenic counterparts. For instance, the fairies of the Potterverse are very different from most "Muggle" concepts of them (in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them). JKR isn't bound to give her characters the same characteristics that are found in the original myths. JKR's centaurs would be disgusted at the idea of rape, especially rape of a captive. With Umbridge's hang-ups, being carried off, held in the forest, and rescued by DD would be enough to put her into a good state of shock. I'm only sorry that Peeves couldn't find any water balloons on the day she left . . . Peg P.S. Tonya, you're sooo right about that gum. From serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 22:19:28 2003 From: serenamoonsilver at yahoo.com (Serena Moonsilver) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:19:28 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79243 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > This has probably been mentioned before but I have seen no sign of > it. Harry Potter, as worked out by the fans, is set in 1991, due to > the deathday cake. However, in book one (which I have leant, along > with 2, to a unbeliever, so I cannot give exact quotations) > > "You could let me stay in the house?" said harry hopefully, he could > watch dudleys T.V and maybe have a go on dudleys playstation for > change. > > In 1991, unless I am VERY much mistaken, being a videogame player, > the playstation 1 was not around. Please correct me if I am wrong, > but I am 99% sure that the playstation was not released six years > before the N64, on may 1st 1997. > > If i am correct, then when is Harry Potter set, or has this > argument been cleared up? > Actually in the edition I have, it says computer. However, I'm pretty sure in one of the other books, it says something about Dudley chucking his playstation and then being upset because he couldn't play it. Serena From nineve_laguna at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 22:23:24 2003 From: nineve_laguna at hotmail.com (nineve_laguna) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:23:24 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79244 I don't believe JKR > actually was meaning to date the books when she wrote them, I think > she meant them to be more of a timeless story for the ages type thing. > The pinning down of the exact dates of everything is something that > came about because of the fans. If anything, she erred by writing > down the date of Nick's death, allowing us fans to get a foothold to speculate. > > Erin ***************** A very mature and sensible answer. The HP phenomenon is turning people's heads away from the beautiful literature work that JKR created. If she wanted to time it, she would have done. HP is a contemporary work, and will still be a very modern book for as long as (muggle)cars run on the ground and the Underground, er, underground. Had she started with a date, it would imediately had pigeonholed Harry as a book already of last century. Nineve From EnsTren at aol.com Fri Aug 29 22:37:53 2003 From: EnsTren at aol.com (EnsTren at aol.com) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:37:53 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79245 A question about this, what version of star signs are we using? I mean are we using the offical or the tweleve section astrologers? See, current astronomers have the sun as passing though /thirteen/ constelations, not twelve. Some anchient astrologers used 13 instead of 12 as well, it /was/ part of the original Ptolemaic constellations. It also changes the dates for zodiac signs, making Harry a Cancer. I think there is another division that doesn't change the dates so much. That being said, on the 13 zodiac list, I think Salazar Slytherin (and other Slytherins of your choice) was born sometime from November 30 to December 17, making him a Ophiuchus, in classical times called Asclepius, (Latin: Aesculapius) the God of Medicine. Ophiuchus is called the "Serpent Bearer" and, Asclepius, get this: He learned medicine from /Chiron the Centaur/ and from the Serpent he learned how to make /the Elixer of Life/ Make of that what you will. Here's a good link I found where I got a good bit of information: http://www.geocities.com/astrologyconstellations/ophiuchus.htm Nemi --Black Dragon --Slasher and Yaoist --Utterly Psycotic [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From fc26det at aol.com Fri Aug 29 22:48:11 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:48:11 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79246 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "sebfish5" wrote: > This has probably been mentioned before but I have seen no sign of > it. Harry Potter, as worked out by the fans, is set in 1991, due to > the deathday cake. However, in book one (which I have leant, along > with 2, to a unbeliever, so I cannot give exact quotations) > > "You could let me stay in the house?" said harry hopefully, he could > watch dudleys T.V and maybe have a go on dudleys playstation for > change. > > In 1991, unless I am VERY much mistaken, being a videogame player, > the playstation 1 was not around. Please correct me if I am wrong, > but I am 99% sure that the playstation was not released six years > before the N64, on may 1st 1997. > > If i am correct, then when is Harry Potter set, or has this > argument been cleared up? My impression was that Harry started Hogwarts in 2000 since he got a Nimbus 2000. The next year when Draco got on the Slytherin team his father bought them all Nimbus 2001s. I could be wrong of course but I thought the broom #'s corresponded to the year they came out. Susan > > > Seb From t.forch at mail.dk Fri Aug 29 23:13:50 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:13:50 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030830011004.02457410@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 79247 At 21:55 29-08-03 +0000, erinellii wrote: >I once heard someone say that, although the playstation was not >around in England or the US in 1991, they did have it in Japan. According to The playstation was officially released in Japan in Decembr 1994. >I don't believe JKR actually was meaning to date the books when she >wrote them, I think she meant them to be more of a timeless story >for the ages type thing. The pinning down of the exact dates of >everything is something that came about because of the fans. If >anything, she erred by writing down the date of Nick's death, >allowing us fans to get a foothold to speculate. Hear! Hear! Bravo! I know it's not the conclusion I appear to reach in the present on-line incarnation of my timeline essay, but it will soon be. The old version (with the conclusion which I now believe to be erroneous) is available at: I do go though just about all the available evidence ;-) /Troels From kkearney at students.miami.edu Fri Aug 29 23:30:31 2003 From: kkearney at students.miami.edu (corinthum) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:30:31 -0000 Subject: The smoke serpent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79248 Geoff asked: > I don't think this has been raised in a thread previously but I am > puzzled as to its importance having just reached it on my fifth > reading. Anyone got a view? > > OOTP Chapter 22 pp.415-6 UK Bloomsbury edition. ... > > "Naturally, naturally", murmured Dumbledore, apparently to himself, > still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of > surprise. "But in essence divided?" > ... > OK, so what's all this about? Something to do with Harry > being "inside" the snake yet separate from it? I believe those little silver intruments are going to play a much larger role in books to come. They've received far too much face time to play such a small, cryptic role. The fact that Harry was interrupted just as he was going to ask about their purpose makes me think that little detail is crucially important. My current theory regarding the things: Dumbledore was using the instruments to learn about Voldemort's current powers. He's known for quite some time (due to Harry's previous psychic dream episodes) that Harry and Voldemort are at times mentally connected through the scar. His "Naturally, naturally" comment was therefore due to his receiving the information that Harry was once again seeing things from Voldemort's perspective. No big surprise. He had also been concerned that Voldemort mught use this connection to manipulate Harry's behavior siince the beginning of the year, so I hardly think he would wait until this moment to question the nature of the Harry-Voldemort connection. However, the one thing Dumbledore seems quite interested in is how Harry saw the attack. In SS/PS, we learned that Vapormort was capable of possessing other animals and people. It was something I never really questioned; an evil spirit trying to regain life would naturally be able to possess other beings. But in OoP, the situation is different. Voldemort has his own body; he is mortal again. Yet Harry saw the attack, not from the view of Voldemort directing the snake, but from Voldemort being the snake. By doing his research with the little silver instruments, Dumbledore learns that Voldemort has not transfigured himself, nor is he an animagus. Voldemort and the snake are "in essence divided." The fact that Voldemort is still capable of possessing animals (and, as we later see, people) makes him a much more dangerous foe. Indeed, the only time Dumbledore shows any fear during the final battle is when Voldemort disappears, preparing to possess Harry. I'm not quite sure how this possession ability is going to come into play, but I am certain that it's going to be extremely important. An Evil Overlord wreaking havoc by directing his minions is bad, but an Evil Overlord capable of taking over his enemies, causing them to wreak havoc, and then leaving them for dead, in addition to directing his minions, is worse. -Corinth From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 23:40:08 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:40:08 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79249 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" wrote: > > A lot of interesting posts have been made about the incapacity of the > > Longbottoms and the significance of the gum wrappers. > > Well, here's mine: > > I've been thinking about the whole Droobles mystery, and I must admit > that it's driven absolutely mad. That aside, these are my thoughts: > > The particular ward that Neville's parents are on may somehow be > controlled by either LV or Fudge. If we look at the people that we > know of who are in that ward (which, we find out from the nurse that > it is pretty high security, although deadly plants seem to make their > way in fairly easily)we see that what they all have in common is that > they all have or may have some kind of dangerous information. > Lockhart, of course, is the only adult who has seen the Chamber of > Secrets opened. Neville's parents: unknown, but were Order members so > they may have gotten some interesting info before they were "addled". > The last (what's the name?? Bode?), who was killed by his gift of > Devil's Snare, was able to get to the Dept. of Mysteries and make his > way all the way through to the prophecy. > > Anyway, I think Nevilles' mother may be giving him some sort of clue > about the ward itself with the wrappers; that is, that the doctors (or > someone) are purposely keeping them in their foggy state. > > So, then, the wrappers. Maybe the wrappers are not all bubblegum > wrappers. Perhaps she has given him other types of candy wrappers as > well. In that case, they are a clue to "candy". That is, maybe she's > saying that "fudge" is responsible (is this too much of a stretch?). > Or, Droobles does start with the letters Dr., so maybe it's a clue to > the doctor's name, which we'll see in Book 6. Is this lame? > > Entropy, who always likes to look for the very worst in everyone. Most posters to this message board seem to agree about the bubble gum and/or wrappers containing something that is keeping the Longbottoms in their addled state. Its also been brought up by me as well as others that Neville will be the one to figure this out and cure them. So, how will this play out? I think Neville will get into a conversation with HRH, questions will be asked, and the group, with Hermione in the lead, figure it out. Remember at the hospital, gran knew all about Hermione since she had helped Neville on many occasions. Anyone else? Fran From margdean at erols.com Fri Aug 29 23:14:17 2003 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 19:14:17 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: significant dates (was characters' star signs) References: Message-ID: <3F4FDE49.7DBA122B@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79250 bluesqueak wrote: > [Muggle Britain now holds the Halloween Feast in two parts. > Halloween itself, and Bonfire Night on November 5th. I notice that > the Hogwarts students *don't* celebrate Bonfire Night, which dates > from the early 17th Century] IIRC the original name for Bonfire Night is Guy Fawkes Day, and it commemorates a specific event in English history (the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot, a plot by Guy Fawkes and his fellow conspirators to blow up the Houses of Parliament). It could be that despite the soubriquet of a certain phoenix, the WW is uninterested enough in the details of Muggle history to commemorate the event. --Margaret Dean From journalisto at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 00:09:29 2003 From: journalisto at hotmail.com (The Journalist) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 17:09:29 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] prophecy/Firenze References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79251 Rachna: If the prophecy was first in the book and then I read Firenze's warning, I would have questioned it. Since, she has written it so that it ends with the prophecy, you don't really question it. Anyway, the point of my long-winded ramble was that maybe the prophecy turns out to not be true and Rowling is just stringing us along. Dan: I absolutely agree--We've seen the multitude of possible interpretations of that thing, with it's rediculous grammar structure. Prophecies have been in the book since SS/PS (Firenze remarking about the stars), and we've heard the same things: it's extremely difficult to do, humans don't usually have the state of mind to interpret the signs around them correctly, and only a couple people are actual Seers, prophetic lightning rods. Thus, it seems very, very likely that Dumbledore interpreted the Prophecy incorrectly. -Dan, who wishes Dumbledore would show it to Firenze... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 00:25:11 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:25:11 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic - Side Note In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79252 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > If I might return to this item having read a number of the posts on > the thread. > > Crouch/Moody in GOF describes the three as either "unforgiveable > curses" or "illegal curses". I took the first as it is the chapter > heading. > > My dictionary defines "curse" as "an appeal to a supernatural power > to inflict harm on someone or something" or "a cause of harm or > misery". > > Assuming that the Wizarding World uses a similar definition, Avada > Kevadra, Cruciatus and Imperius are /not/ seen as being used in a > positive way. Other spells are referred to as hexes or jinxes or > charms. > > ...edited... > > Geoff bboy_mn: I'm a bit off topic relative to this thread, but I thought you might enjoy a discussion we had recently about the definition of jinx, spell, curse, hex, etc... Thu Jul 17, 2003 Spell Definitions--help! DADA spells? http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/71220 You may have already read this, if so, ...never mind. Way back near the beginning of this thread, I posted a couple of links to two relatively in-depth discussions (Feb, March) of what makes Dark Magic dark. They really are an interesting read. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79014 Sorry for the interuption. Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion. bboy_mn From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 00:30:40 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:30:40 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79253 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "MB1984" wrote: > I'd say Fred-n-George are Gemini, but that would be *such* a > clich?. ;) And it would run counter to canon. In GoF, we learn that they are not qualified to be in the Triwizard Tournament because their seventeenth birthdays will not occur until the following April. That would seem to make them Aries if their birthdays fall in the first part of the month or Taurus if it's the second part, or one of each if Molly gave birth to them on the cusp of the two signs, one on each side of midnight. They seem like Aries to me, personally, but I'm not really certain that JKR pays attention to this sort of thing when she's writing. Ron, for instance has never seemed like a Pisces to me. OTOH, Hermione does at times seem like the stereotypical compulsive Virgo (a friend told me what neat-freaks Virgos are--you'd never know it to look at my daughter's disaster of a bedroom). I just don't think it's possible to predict when someone's birthday is in canon, and it's possible JKR may not even have considered when EVERYONE'S birthday is. She's had to include some, for the story, but otherwise we don't know most people's birthdays. I, for one, would never have pegged Neville for being a Leo like Harry, but if JKR says it's so, it's so. We only know Hermione's and Ron's birthdays through interviews, so it's possible that info will never be important in canon. It was important for us to know that George & Fred didn't qualify for the tournament and Angelina and Cedric did qualify, so we have rough ballpark figures for their birthdays (October for C & A--less than a week before Halloween, for Angelina). --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From psychic_serpent at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 00:41:28 2003 From: psychic_serpent at yahoo.com (psychic_serpent) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:41:28 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79254 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > The pinning down of the exact dates of everything is something > that came about because of the fans. If anything, she erred by > writing down the date of Nick's death, allowing us fans to get a > foothold to speculate. There's absolutely no reason, why, in a fictional world, the Play Station couldn't exist earlier than in our world, although she may in fact have erred with Nick's deathdate (almost all of her Flints-- including the original one--have a connection to her innumeracy). There's another Flint connected to Nick as well--the fact that he said he hadn't eaten in about four hundred years, and yet has been dead for about five hundred years. Go figure. OTOH, to my knowledge, JKR has never spoken in public objecting to public celebrations of Harry's 21st, 22nd or, this year, his 23rd birthdays. I'm not aware of her ever saying, "No, you people have the year all wrong." Until she does, despite the fact that her days of the week are wonky for the years in question, I'm assuming that the birth year of 1980 is correct for Harry, based upon the (admittedly dubious) info about Nick's deathdate. --Barb http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Psychic_Serpent http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/Barb From ktd7 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 00:46:08 2003 From: ktd7 at yahoo.com (Karen) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:46:08 -0000 Subject: The smoke serpent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79255 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I don't think this has been raised in a thread previously but I am > puzzled as to its importance having just reached it on my fifth > reading. Anyone got a view? > > I took this as being the fact that part of Harry (his blood, in GoF) is in Voldemort, just as part of Voldemort is in Harry (his scar). I expect that some of Harry's "power" is warring with Voldemort's basic nature. Since Harry's power is the capacity to love, or more accurately, "heart", it could be that Voldemort has times when he is distracted from his goals. Then again, maybe I'm just making up my own story! :-) Karen From hebrideanblack at earthlink.net Sat Aug 30 01:46:48 2003 From: hebrideanblack at earthlink.net (Wendy St John) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 18:46:48 -0700 Subject: FILK - "Hogwarts Story" is now Complete! Message-ID: <410-22003863014648671@earthlink.net> No: HPFGUIDX 79256 It's finished. "Hogwarts Story," my Order of the Phoenix version of "West Side Story" is finally finished! This post contains two songs - "It's All My Fault/I Must Confess" and two versions of the "Finale" - the one you'd expect, and a slashy one (I prefer the slashy one, myself, and if you want to know which is the "real" finale, that's the one). If you are interested in reading/singing the entire "Hogwarts Story" musical in order from start to finish, you can do so thanks to the awesome work of Caius Marcus, who has added a "Hogwarts Story" page to his "Harry Potter Filks" site. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU CMC! http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hogwartstory.htm So, without further eloquence, here are my final two "Hogwarts Story" offerings: "He Isn't Dead/I Must Confess" An OoP "Hogwarts Story" filk to "A Boy Like That/I Have a Love" from the movie "West Side Story." (Scene: HARRY and DUMBLEDORE are in the Headmaster's office at Hogwarts, after returning from the battle at the Ministry of Magic). HARRY (angrily): It's all my fault. I let them trick me. Hermione, she tried to stop me. If I'd have stayed here, he'd be alive! I saw him there, believed my visions. But that was such a bad decision. If I'd have stayed here, he'd be alive! I saw his face, such surprise, But there was life in his eyes. Then he fell through - one moment there, The next he's gone - - It's so wrong, Headmaster, just so wrong! It's all my fault, my mind is reeling. And no one else knows what I'm feeling. I cannot bear this, can't stand the pain! I've had enough! I want to end it! I've had enough . . . DUMBLEDORE: I'm sorry, Harry, no - Oh, Harry, no. You must not blame yourself for this. The blame's on me, all of it. And now I'll say what should have been said years ago . . . There's so much that, Harry, you don't know. You don't know! I should have told you. I see that now. Made a mistake. I should have told you. I must confess, I must tell you the truth, Though you'll hate me after I do. Before you were born, A prophecy was sworn. Yes, it's true. I must confess, didn't want you to know That the boy she spoke of was you. You're special. That scar, It makes you what you are. You're the one with the power, The power to vanquish the Dark Lord. For you possess a power The Dark Lord knows not!, HARRY: It all falls to me. So that's the prophecy. It's his life or mine! ******* "Finale" to "Hogwarts Story" An OoP filk to "Finale" from the stage production of "West Side Story." FINALE #1 (Scene: HARRY sits at his desk in his room at Privet Drive, the shards of Sirius' mirror layed out in front of him. He holds the mirror frame in his hands). HARRY: Those we love are not really gone; We will join them when this life's done. Someday . . . Beyond the Veil . . . (HARRY'S voice trails off, and he puts down the mirror frame, and puts his head in his hands) **OR** FINALE #2 (Scene: REMUS LUPIN is in the parlour at 12 Grimmauld Place. The room is dimly lit by only a few candles. Remus sits in a chair near the fireplace in which no fire is burning. He holds in his hands a mirror nearly identical to the one Sirius gave Harry, except that this one is still intact). REMUS: Those we love are not really gone; We will join them when this life's done. Someday . . . Beyond the Veil . . . (REMUS stops singing, and raises his head to look imploringly upward. Tears stream down his face. With a sudden movement, he hurls the mirror into the fireplace, where it shatters. REMUS takes a ragged breath, and then collapses backwards into the chair, puts his face in his hands, and begins to sob). ***************THE END***************** Hope you enoyed it! :-) Please make any comments to me offlist, as I'm on webview now, and might miss something posted just to the list. Wendy St John hebrideanblack at earthlink.net From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sat Aug 30 01:42:14 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:42:14 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F508D96.30757.4B84BF@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 79257 On 29 Aug 2003 at 21:07, sebfish5 wrote: > This has probably been mentioned before but I have seen no sign of > it. Harry Potter, as worked out by the fans, is set in 1991, due to > the deathday cake. However, in book one (which I have leant, along > with 2, to a unbeliever, so I cannot give exact quotations) > > "You could let me stay in the house?" said harry hopefully, he could > watch dudleys T.V and maybe have a go on dudleys playstation for > change. The problem is your memory is incorrect (though it's pretty good). The quote from book 1 is: "You could just leave me here," Harry put in hopefully (he'd be able to watch what he wanted on television for a change and maybe even have a go on Dudley's computer)" > > In 1991, unless I am VERY much mistaken, being a videogame player, > the playstation 1 was not around. Please correct me if I am wrong, > but I am 99% sure that the playstation was not released six years > before the N64, on may 1st 1997. > > If i am correct, then when is Harry Potter set, or has this > argument been cleared up? The Playstation isn't mentioned until Book 4 - which is 1994, if we take the statement about Nearly Headless Nick's death day in Book 2 as correct. The Playstation was available by 1994 - although for Dudley to have one, it would have had to be imported as there had not been a British release yet. It's not impossible - it seems to a lot of people that Dudley is spoiled enough that he could have got an imported machine. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sat Aug 30 01:59:41 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 01:59:41 -0000 Subject: The smoke serpent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79258 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "corinthum" wrote: > Geoff asked: > > > I don't think this has been raised in a thread previously but I am > > puzzled as to its importance having just reached it on my fifth > > reading. Anyone got a view? > > > > OOTP Chapter 22 pp.415-6 UK Bloomsbury edition. > ... > > > > "Naturally, naturally", murmured Dumbledore, apparently to himself, > > still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of > > surprise. "But in essence divided?" > > > ... > > > OK, so what's all this about? Something to do with Harry > > being "inside" the snake yet separate from it? > > > I believe those little silver intruments are going to play a much > larger role in books to come. They've received far too much face time > to play such a small, cryptic role. The fact that Harry was > interrupted just as he was going to ask about their purpose makes me > think that little detail is crucially important. > > My current theory regarding the things: Dumbledore was using the > instruments to learn about Voldemort's current powers. He's known for > quite some time (due to Harry's previous psychic dream episodes) that > Harry and Voldemort are at times mentally connected through the scar. > His "Naturally, naturally" comment was therefore due to his receiving > the information that Harry was once again seeing things from > Voldemort's perspective. No big surprise. He had also been concerned > that Voldemort mught use this connection to manipulate Harry's > behavior siince the beginning of the year, so I hardly think he would > wait until this moment to question the nature of the Harry-Voldemort > connection. > > However, the one thing Dumbledore seems quite interested in is how > Harry saw the attack. In SS/PS, we learned that Vapormort was capable > of possessing other animals and people. It was something I never > really questioned; an evil spirit trying to regain life would > naturally be able to possess other beings. But in OoP, the situation > is different. Voldemort has his own body; he is mortal again. Yet > Harry saw the attack, not from the view of Voldemort directing the > snake, but from Voldemort being the snake. By doing his research with > the little silver instruments, Dumbledore learns that Voldemort has > not transfigured himself, nor is he an animagus. Voldemort and the > snake are "in essence divided." The fact that Voldemort is still > capable of possessing animals (and, as we later see, people) makes him > a much more dangerous foe. Indeed, the only time Dumbledore shows any > fear during the final battle is when Voldemort disappears, preparing > to possess Harry. > > I'm not quite sure how this possession ability is going to come into > play, but I am certain that it's going to be extremely important. An > Evil Overlord wreaking havoc by directing his minions is bad, but an > Evil Overlord capable of taking over his enemies, causing them to > wreak havoc, and then leaving them for dead, in addition to directing > his minions, is worse. > > -Corinth Corinth, During LV's possession of Harry, Harry's intense desire to die, to end the pain, to see Sirius again seemed to drive the Dark Lord out. According to theories advanced by Talisman (the posts are no longer available in the regular archives but they are 66983 and 67142)this event innoculated Harry from any incursions from LV. Remember that Dumbledore never looked directly at Harry before this time. After the possession, he looked at him in the eyes, had his first real conversation with him. So, perhaps Lord Voldemort can possess other enemies, but Harry is now protected. Jennifer From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sat Aug 30 02:08:09 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 02:08:09 -0000 Subject: Predestination (was Re: prophecy/Firenze) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79259 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Wanda Sherratt" wrote: > JKR has > invested too much in this particular prophecy to be able to abandon > it at the very end. She made the whole of Book 5 revolve around it - > protecting the prophecy from LV, Harry going to the MoM to find the > prophecy, and finally Dumbledore revealing the prophecy. It would > be an enormous cheat to build so much around this particular plot > point and then say at the end, "Just kidding! It's not really > important at all!" These are still children's books, and children > are very insistent on people keeping their promises; I think they'd > be totally bewildered if Rowling were to pull the rug out in that > way. You can't just change the rules in a fairy tale, and for better or for worse, HP IS a modern fairy tale. The most you can do is outwit the rules, and I suspect Rowling may do that. We'll find that there is another interpretation of the prophecy that we haven't suspected, and it will be "fulfilled" in a not-obvious way. Wanda Jen: Well, I totally agree with you about fairy tales and an author's need to keep promises to children. For the sake of debate, though, I wasn't envisioning a "gotcha" ending. The prophecy's very existence explains so many mysteries in the series: Why the Potters and Harry were specifically targeted by Voldemort on that fateful night; why Harry was "marked" and not killed; why DD came up with the plan for the blood protection at the Dursleys; why Harry could not join the WW until he was of age to go to Hogwarts and DD's protection. But all the mysteries the prophecy explains are actually choices made by DD AFTER hearing the prophecy. That point is circular logic--DD acts as he did because he heard the prophecy and therefore fulfills parts of the prophecy through his actions. No place to go with that. The portions of the prophecy yet to be fulfilled, though...I see it as Harry moving PAST the prophecy, not invalidating it. Now he understands his life has not been his own from day 1. Harry is where he is primarily because of DD's choices, and the student is ready to face the master and make his own choices about what the prophecy means. Basically it's the process of the archetypal hero's journey, where the student transforms into the master. And THAT process is Harry's destiny, more than the prophecy....Jen From journalisto at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 03:19:49 2003 From: journalisto at hotmail.com (The Journalist) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 20:19:49 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Their Final Duel References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79260 Pat: In The Goblet of Fire: Voldemort and Harry duel at the cemetary. However, since both wands are brothers(containing the feathers of the same Pheonix*Fawkes*) theyre wands do not work properly against eachother: my guess is that the same exact thing will happen as in GoF, and Harry will force out the last people he killed, thust prdocuing a temporary shield for Harry and at the same time allowing Harry to strike while Voldemort is unable to do so. Any comments? Dan: I do believe we will see LV and HP fight it out again, like the Cemetary Scene in GoF, but I absolutely do not believe for an instant that the book will end in the murder of LV by HP. What makes HP so powerful, what protects him from LV's evil, is love--whether it's his own for others or others' for him. It can't possibly be so simple as a well-timed AK. That would not only be entirely unsatisfying but rather against JKR's message as I view it--the solution to our problems does not lie in hatred and destruction, but in love and peace. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From steve at hp-lexicon.org Sat Aug 30 04:06:42 2003 From: steve at hp-lexicon.org (hp_lexicon) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 04:06:42 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79261 > > it. Harry Potter, as worked out by the fans, is set in 1991, due to > > the deathday cake. The date on Nick's cake is the only specific reference to a year for the series, that's true. If it's correct, then in the Harry Potter universe, Harry was born in 1980 and starts Hogwarts in 1991. > > "You could let me stay in the house?" said harry hopefully, he > could > > watch dudleys T.V and maybe have a go on dudleys playstation for > > change. The quote doesn't say Playstation, it says computer. Of course there were computers in 1991. I know, I had one. > > but I am 99% sure that the playstation was not released six years > > before the N64, on may 1st 1997. The Playstation reference in the books is from the beginning of book four, so Dudley apparently had a Playstation in the fall of 1994. As was mentioned, the Playstation 1 wasn't released officially until December of 1994, and that was only in Japan. If Uncle Vernon bought one for Dudley, it had to be a pre-production model and he would have had to buy more than just the game to make it work with British televisions and electric outlets. It's not all the hard to imagine Vernon doing exactly that. > > > > If i am correct, then when is Harry Potter set, or has this > > argument been cleared up? The date has been officially set, but not because of anything fans have agreed upon. As you may have noticed if you researched this question at all, there is quite a bit of friendly disagreement on the subject. By far the most scholarly and well-researched essay about this whole question is Troel's, and I highly recommend it (along with anything else he cares to write...I am in awe of his scholarship!). It's not the fans who have "proved" anything, however. It's Rowling herself who has made the dates official. According to my sources at Warner who were involved in the production of the Chamber of Secrets DVD, Rowling did officially approve the timeline found on that DVD. The timeline she approved gave Harry's birthdate as July 31, 1980. It is now considered to be officially correct. However, I doubt that this will end any arguments. Rowling makes no effort to match her world up with ours when it comes to calendars. The Playstation reference is one noticable difference, the fact that September 2 is a Monday in almost every book is another. Her world is NOT our world, there's no doubt about it, and there is no way we will ever be able to make everything fit exactly. > > My impression was that Harry started Hogwarts in 2000 since he got a > Nimbus 2000. The next year when Draco got on the Slytherin team his > father bought them all Nimbus 2001s. I could be wrong of course but > I thought the broom #'s corresponded to the year they came out. This is definitely not the case. According to Quidditch Through the Ages, the Nimbus 1000 came out in 1967, so that company was making no attempt to match models to years. Interestingly, the Oakshaft 79, however, did come out in 1879, and the Twigger 90 in 1990. The Nimbus company didn't use that approach for naming their brooms, though. (more information here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/brooms.html) It is important to note that Rowling, in creating her backstory, ties things very much to dates. There are dates on everything, from Chocolate Frog cards to broomsticks, as mentioned above. We have historical references and dates on all sorts of things, and these are clearly stated in the books on portraits of famous people and other places. However, dates are not given for events and people WITHIN the actual timeframe of the books. So there's plenty of reason to try to figure out what year these things are happening in, since Rowling's world so clearly HAS a timeline to it. She has just left the last fifty years more or less undated and dropped hints. I for one think it's possible that at some point the fact that Riddle's leaving school and the defeat of Gridlewald were in the same year will become important. We wouldn't know that it's the same year, though, if we hadn't worked out Rowling's clues. Steve Vander Ark The Harry Potter Lexicon From catlady at wicca.net Sat Aug 30 04:44:12 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 04:44:12 -0000 Subject: BC-magic&ekeltreecity-DumbleShip-JamesRelatives-Sev'sRelatives-more,look! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79262 Serena Moonsilver wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78817 : << Yes, but B.C.E is a more modern usage, B.C. is more traditional and since Rowling tries to make the impression that Ollivander is very, very old, it seems likely that's why she used B.C. instead of B.C.E. >> He *has* updated that sign since his business was founded in *counts on fingers* 732 AUC. (AUC is 'ab urbe condita', i.e. since the founding of the city [Rome], the way years were dated until the BC/AD system was invented. I found a webpage that says the current era starts with C.E. 1 on 1 January 754 AUC.) Golly feetmade of clay wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78865 : << Explain the wireless and the knight bus and the HEx. They have knowledge of these things even if theirs work on magic. If you can find out a reason why they have a knight bus but can't manage to get a Muggle grade 10 science textbook to learn about the muggle world and things like electricity, I would be most grateful. >> I have always believed that Wizarding Wireless, Knight Bus, and Hogwarts Express were invented by Muggleborn wizards who knew about the originals from their Muggle lives and knew how to make magical machines because that was their wizarding career. I'm inclined to believe that a wizard who knew both science and magic could do *even more powerful* magic, but it has been suggested that wizards would lose the ability to do magic, thus turning into Muggles, if started thinking like Muggles, i.e. logically as a result of studying science. However, as for electricity in particular, they CANNOT practise with it at Hogwarts or Hogmeade or Diagon Alley or (probably) the Burrow or any wizarding home, because electrical and electronic devices don't work right when exposed to too much ambient magic (per Hermione in GoF). Susan Smith Atropos Gryffin wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78928 : << I have begun to wonder if McGonnagall and Dumbledore are married. When Dippet stepped aside and Albus DD was promoted to headmaster, I beleive he (DD) then recommended a Transfiguration replacement based on his experience that his own wife was a superb Transfiguration witch. >> I suppose Dumbledore chose McGonagall as Transfiguration Professor based on his experience with her as his student and possibly as a helper versus Grindelwald. I feel sure that Dumbledore and McGonagall are not married to each other because I feel absolutely certain that McGonagall and Hooch have been a couple, a monogamous couple, for many decades. I have no evidence for McG/H except that it's so *obvious* when I read canon. I guess those who think that McG and DD are married (or 'going together') assumed that the relationship got intimate some time after that first chapter of PS/SS, or do they assume that the stiff way they speak to each other is just an accustomed joke between them? I think DD (who may be a widower) and Madam Pomfrey (who could be a widow) might be 'going together', for which I even have Evidence: 'I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey admired my new earmuffs.' Christy asked in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78965 : << If James' family is in fact a wizarding family >> Surely they must be, at least on one side, as JKR said in an interview that James's Invisibility Cloak was an old family heirloom. << then how is it that Harry has no other living relatives? (snip) What I was wondering though is that if James' family was indeed a wizarding family, and what Sirius has said is true (that is, that wizarding families are very intermixed) shouldn't Harry be related to somebody else? >> In OoP, Dumbledore explained that he put Harry with Petunia because DD's protection spell built on Lily's sacrifice by protecting Harry while he was with his mother's "blood". That killed my theory that Petunia was Narcissa's sister, rejected by her parents for being a Squib, and adopted by the Evanses. In exchange, it explained why no relative of Harry's on his father's side would be an acceptable foster home. If McGonagall was James's mother or mother-in-law or aunt, she would have responded to 'They're the only family he has left' by saying the wizarding equivalent of 'what am I, chopped liver?' But if the closest relations she knew of were something like Andromeda, Bellatrix, and Narcissa nee Black's mother were the sister of James's mother, that would not cause her to suggest putting him with Bellatrix or Narcissa the Death Eaters, not with even Andromeda who was busy with a small child of her own. What would she be, his second cousin once removed? Some listie has pointed out that James didn't have a brother, because Sirius said James's parents treated him like a second son, not like a third son. I personally doubt he had a sister either. Melpomene wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79070 << Severus just *has* to be related to Phineas. >> I agree with whoever said that Mrs. Black was probably Mr. Black's first cousin, so they had mostly the same ancestors. I think that Sirius, Bellatrix, Severus, and the man in the Pensive all had a resemblance, more than just black hair and strong features (altho' Sirius and Bellatrix were lucky enough to get the pretty version). Therefore, if the man in the Pensieve was Sevvie's father, I imagine that Sevvie's paternal grandmother was a Black. Susan Handel wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79081 : << what is a "biro" ? >> It's a bic pen, regardless of brand name. (Seriously. They were invented by the Marquis de Bic, a Frenchman.) If you have access to the Web as well as e-mail, I have found www.onelook.com to be a wonderful resource. << Secondly, Hagrid explained in SS/PS that the wizards do not let Muggles know of them because they would want them to fix all their "problems" with magic. The way I understand it, Wizards work very hard not to "contaminate" the Muggle world. >> That *is* what Hagrid said, and I think he even believed it. I also think that is just the nicey-nice story told to wizarding children, while the real truth is that wizards hide from Muggles because they are SCARED of Muggles. When it comes to Magical History, I have more faith in Professor Binns's accuracy than in Hagrid's. In CoS, Binns said: "You all know, of course, that Hogwarts was founded over a thousand years ago - the precise date is uncertain - by the four greatest witches and wizards of the age. The four school Houses are named after them: Godric Gryffindor, Helga Hufflepuff, Rowena Ravenclaw, and Salazar Slytherin. They built this castle together, far from prying Muggle eyes, for it was an age when magic was feared by common people, and witches and wizards suffered much persecution." Let me repeat: "witches and wizards suffered much persecution." Sunnylove wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79143 : << One wonders if she had a wizard present, especially a healer, he might have been able to save her. Why would a witch die in childbirth anyway, is my question. >> My theory is that she died of a broken heart. Her only will to live was to give life to her child and she had no will to live after that. Some other listie offered a theory that witches really NEED midwives / accoucheurs, because of wizarding children doing uncontrolled unintended magic when frightened or angry? If a being-born baby is old enough to do that, the process of being squeezed out of the womb is adequate to fighten or anger him, so there would be a lot of uncontrolled magic around a wizarding childbirth. An argument against that is that Colin Creevey's Muggle mother survived to bear Dennis. A counter-argument is that TMR probably had much stronger magic than Colin. Evangelina (whose posts I love) wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79164 : << Also, was it common knowledge among all you English-speaking folk that a cockatrice and a basilisk were the same animal? This is more than a little bit confusing. >> When I was in elementary school in the 1960s, we did a unit in English class about Greek and Roman mythology and another about mythological animals. I am convinced that, back in those days, the basilisk and the cockatrice were different animals, but a year or two or three ago, I did a LOT Of web-searching about basilisks and cockatrices and all the sources that I found said they were the same. The way I remember it, a cockatrice comes from an egg laid by a rooster and incubated in the natural warmth of a dung heap. It has a rooster's head and a lizard body. If a cockatrice lays an egg which is incubated under a toad, the egg produces a basilisk, which is like a snake with a rooster head at one end and a toad head with a gold crown on the other end. One head of the basilisk can turn people into stone by looking at them and the other can kill a whole roomful of people by breathing out poison gas. I cannot remember which is the rooster head (which has the same deadly power on the cockatrice) and which is the toad head. I do notice that this is very different from the new information that Steve bboy_mn provided today. Carolina Silmariel wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79225 : << Draco can be Cancer. Jealous, inmature, loyal (to slytherin house), acting by the mood he has that day, not standing laughs on him, likes family, likes to take revenge (also a Scorpio and Virgo trait). Adding details, he can have Scorpio as Ascendent, Moon in Virgo, Mercury in Gemini and Venus in Libra. Sirius is touched by Saggitaurus somehow, I see Snape as a Scorpio/Virgo, Dumbledore can be an eagle Scorpio. >> A few years ago, I messed around with an ephemeris and decided that Draco was born on June 24, 1980 Sun- 3Cn06 Sun- at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me as Gemini/Cancer cusp) Moon 17Sc00 Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!! Merc 24Cn31 Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer Venu 19Ge05.Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed to indicate retrograde) Mars 21Vi17 Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo Jupi 5Vi02 Satu 21Vi06 Uran 22Sc01. Nept 20Sg58. Plut 18Li58. I see Snape as a Scorpio like me, Sirius as an Aries, Lupin Aquarius or Pisces, but I think Ron is supposed to be a Taurus, not an Aries. I haven't checked an ephemeris for May 1 (Beltaine), 1980 to see if it suits him. Entropy Mail wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79236 : << There's is a point in OoP when Sirius refers to Snape as Malfoy's "lapdog", which I thought at the time was interesting. We've never seen Snape have much of a relationship with Malfoy. >> In OoP, Umbridge tells Snape that Lucius Malfoy has always spoken well of him. I felt that that confirmed my opinion that Lucius and Severus had some kind of friendship (maybe it started in school days, maybe Lucius recruited Severus into Death Eaters) even if in recent years it consisted only of Lucius having a few words with Severus when he came to Hogwarts on Board of Governors business. << If anything, Malfoy should hate Snape for turning towards Dumbledore and away from the DEs. >> Apparently, Malfoy doesn't know that Snape turned toward Dumbledore. Malfoy avoided Azkaban back in 1981 by claiming that he'd been under the Imperius Curse, and probably assumes that Snape also acted (naming names) to save his own skin, rather than taking even more risk by turning spy. From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 05:02:31 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 05:02:31 -0000 Subject: Harry the Chosen (was Thoughts about Voldy) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79263 Jim Ferer > Your idea, though, explains that perfectly, so Harry can be the true > Heir of Gryffindor, the receiver of Gryffindor's sword. (to make the > Arthurian analogy perfect, Harry would have had to go to the lake to > get it). In a way he did go to the lake to get it: (CoS pg 302 US softcover) Harry stood aside as Ron came whizzing out of the pipe, too. "We must be miles under the school." said Harry, his voice echoing in the black tunnel. "Under the lake, probably." said Ron, squinting around at the dark, slimy walls. And we *know* what odd coincidences pop up in Ron's offhand remarks! ~Margaret From journalisto at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 05:38:52 2003 From: journalisto at hotmail.com (The Journalist) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 22:38:52 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Unforgiveable and dark magic References: <74.31ea4ed3.2c7fa3b8@aol.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79264 Carl Pelleg Avada Kedavra Curses - If it just causes a physical death (i.e. nothing hapens to the spirit or the soul) than it could be used during legalized death penalties. Of course this only applies if the Wizarding World has the death penalty. Dan: The problem with this idea is that the WW has no idea what happens when someone is killed by Avada Kedavra. Does it hurt? Does it burn? Do you feel unbelievable pain as your soul is torn from your body? No one knows what death feels like, because no one has ever come back. No one, besides Voldemort and Harry (to an extent, at least) have ever been hit by Avada Kedavra (of sorts) and lived (so to speak) to tell about it. Carl Pelleg: Cruciatus Curse - As this gives pain it could be used, in small doses, to help interrogate a prisoner. Or it can help an individual learn to control pain in their body. Otherwise it could be used in an offensive capacity. (This is all I can think about this curse, if I can think of more reasons than I will post my thoughts.) Dan: Can wizards control the strength of their curses? Can a wizard who seriously enjoys causing pain use it mildly? Everything we know about the WW points to the idea that government torture does not happen. The Aurors were allowed to use them in certain circumstances, but I think we can pretty safely assume that there are better ways of getting information (Veritaserum, legilimency). Carl Pelleg: Imperius Curse - What would you say if somebody put a known death eater under the Imperius Curse and told them to report to Dumbledore after every meeting but otherwise to act normal. You are using it on a bad person in order to save the lives of other people. (I know this is stretching it) Dan: Insane. That's what happens under long-term Imperius. I absolutely disagree with you. The Imperius Curse is incredibly hard magic, like Avada Kedavra, and Cruciatus. You need a lot of magic to maintain it, and a lot of focus to do it well. Not only is it a drain on the target, leading to insanity, but I'm sure that keeping someone under that spell all day everyday would seriously harm the caster as well. I just don't think you can order the wizard to do and act normally--especially if this wizard is in contact with Voldemort, our super-legilimens. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 05:46:30 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (linlou43) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 05:46:30 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Lives Intertwined---Long Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79265 It was very quiet on the shore of theory bay as the sun slowly rose over the horizen, when quite suddenly a slight pop disturbed the pristine scene and a stranger stood upon the beach. Linda looked around her speculatively. It was as beautiful here as she had imagined. The waves were gently lapping at the sand and the slowly lightening sky was cloudless, only disturbed by the occasional owl. "Well", she said aloud to no one, "early bird gets the worm and all that. Time to get some work done." Shading her eyes against the rising sun, she looked out into the bay itself. The spanking new vessel she had anchored in the bay overnight was dwarfed by the Big Bang but it was a sturdy ship and its highly polished canons reflected the early morning light as the sun climbed higher in the sky. It had yet to be christened but was, a far as she knew, a new vessel, with the exception of quite a large proportion of the canons. Many of them were from early in the series but a little TLC had brought back their earlier luster. "Who, exactly, are you?" demanded a beligerent voice behind her. Breaking off her musings in midthought, Linda turned to the newcomer. "Hello", she said simply. I'm new here. Name's Linda. I anchored in the bay last night." She presented her hand to the stranger. "And you are..." "Captain Cindy", the stranger answered coolly, not taking Linda's hand, "and those canons of yours better not be aimed at the Big Bang." "Actually", said Linda, gesturing toward her cruiser, "as you can see they're pointed out to sea at the moment. I wasn't planning to attack any of the established vessals on the TBAY, just to add my own theory to the mix. "Oh, that's alright then", said Cindy smiling, extending her own hand. "Welcome to the bay. So what is this theory of yours that has that much canon the moment you sail in? "Well", replied Linda," it's pretty simple really. There is a quantifiable connection between Neville and Harry." . "No kidding",Cindy commented caustically. Dumbledore told us that much when he explained the prophecy in OOP." "Yes, he did, as far as he went", Linda explained."However, the connection I'm making is that the boy that wasn't marked is integral to the success of the boy that was. Quite a few of the events that give Harry the tools or information he needs have stemmed in some way from Neville", explained Linda. "There's loads of canon to support it." "Not very bangy", a frowning Cindy commented. " And where exactly is all this canon you're going on about?" "All through the series," explained Linda. "It starts all the way back in SS..." "But we don't even meet Neville until well into the book!" interupted Cindy. "I know that," countered Linda. "If you notice, I did not say all, just *quite a few*. Anyway, the first part of SS- Harry finding out he was a wizard, getting to school and all that- was mostly set-up and therefore not germane to the actual conflict part of the story. The actual meat of the story doesn't really start until Harry gets to Hogwarts, and we meet Neville on the train before he even gets there. Give me a minute. You asked, I'm trying to answer." "OK. I'm listening," said Cindy. "Shoot." Glancing at the formidable armament the Big Bang showcased out on the bay, Linda pondered Cindy's choice of words and decided to continue anyway. "It starts with the remembrall incident. If Draco hadn't stolen Neville's remebrall, Harry wouldn't be the youngest seaker in a century. If that flying talent hadn't been fostered that early on, Harry might not have been able to catch the flying key and he probably wouldn't have been able to get past the dragons in GOF. Second, although it was not caused by Neville, he was with HHR when they discovered Fluffy and therefore is connected by association. Next, Neville is instrumental in the trio finding out about the Sorcerors stone. If he hadn't hopped into the common room under the influence of the leg locker curse, Harry wouldn't have given him the chocolate frog which was followed by Neville givingn Harry the Dumbledore card. If Harry had eaten the frog himself he most likely would never have looked at the back as it was a card he already had. In this way Neville was indirectly responsible for the trio finding out who Nicholas Flamel was and therefore about the sorcerors stone. I would count these as three of the most important events in the first book but feel free to disagree." Cindy looked pensive. "Alright, so far you may have a point", she ventured thoughtfully. "You've caught my attention at least. What else have you got?" Encouraged by Cindy's interest, Linda continued. "Next we move on to COS. This was a difficult book to reconcile with the theory because we really don't see a whole lot of Neville. The only connection I've been able to come up with is that Lockhart had not chosen Neville for the dueling demonstration, Snape may have not had a reasonable cause to veto the choice. This set up the match-up between Draco and Harry, which led to the discovery of Harry's ability to speak parsel tongue. Without that discovery, Harry could never have gotten into the chamber. It's indirect, I know, but it's still a valid connection. I never said the connections would have to be caused by Neville, just that they would exist. Maybe, through the first part of the series, Neville's incompetance is necessary to Harry knowing what he needs to know. He certainly would not have been involved in any of the incidents I've mentioned so far if he wasn't so hapless at magical skills." "That is stretching a bit isn't it? agreed Cindy."However it does exist, I'll give you that. Now what about POA?" "That was actually easier to work with than COS," Linda replied. "Neville is much more involved in the main body of the story. For instance, Harry using Neville's name on the Knight bus. Harry is not especially close to Neville. Why would it be the first name that pops into his head? Another example is the boggart incident. For the first time we see Neville succed at a spell, not once but twice in the same class. Is it coincidence that that same class leads Harry to achieving the patronus and therefore being able to save himself, Sirius and Hermione? I don't think so. Neville is also the key to the first inkling we get that Sirius is not after Harry at all. When Ron awakes with Sirius standing over him, it is a direct result of Neville having to write down the passwords. If he hadn't, Crookshanks would not have been able to steal them from his bedside table and Sirius would never have been able to get into the dormitory. In this case, it was a clue that Harry did not recognize at the time but I have to wonder if it entered into his decision to believe Sirius in the shreiking shack. At the very least it affected the actions of the staff in that they increased the protection on the castle in general and the Griffyndor dormitaries in particular.Therefore, Harry was better protected. Sirius wasn't actually after him but that wasn't known to the characters at the time." Linda paused in her narrative and looked at Cindy. She hadn't realized that she had been staring at the ground, absently tracing a figure eight into the moist sand as she spoke. Cindy gazed back at her, and after a few minutes of silence rang through the early morning, she spoke. "Well. Are you going to continue?" "Alright, on to GOF", Linda continued. "Obviously, we don't see Neville until we are well into the book since the first section is taken up by the QWC, so there is no connection until they arrive at Hogwarts. The first one I see is their first DADA class with Fake! Moody. Only two students are dramatically affected by the demonstration of the Unforgivables- Harry and Neville. I know this is because of what they each have in their past but I think it is significant that they are the only two in their Griffyndors in their year to share that level of past horror. Of course, it could be argued that each of their experiances are direect results of the prophecy but that's another theory. The second connection stems from the same class- Fake!Moody's gift to Neville. We are told by Moody/Crouch Jr. that he gave Neville the book expecting that Harry would find out about Gillyweed from him. It was Harry's stubborn pride and sense of honor that prevented this from happening. The thing is, whether Harry utilized Neville's knowlege or not, Fake! Moody CHOOSE Neville to be the bearer of that knowlege. Why? Again, Harry wasn't especially close friends with him so why didn't he use Hermione or Ron instead. Goodness knows Hermione would never have rejected backround reading. Fake!Moody was many things but he wasn't stupid. He could easily have found a way to give the book to Hermione without arousing suspicion. That way he could have been certain that Harry would get the information on Gillyweed-yet he gave it to Neville instead. The use of Dobby as conveyer of the info was a desperate attempt to fix that error. Fortunately for Fake! Moody, it worked." "So what you saying", said CIndy slowly," is that Neville supposed to be responsible for Harry succeeding on the second task, but Harry screws it up. Sounds to me as if your theory is starting to take on water. Harry's choices, in fact his very personality, precluded the Neville connection." "But that isn't the case", Linda replied. "In this case the connection was forged by a third party-Fake!Moody. It wasn't necessary for Harry to take advantage of Neville's knowlege for the connection to be there. Captain Cindy looked at Linda with narrowed eyes."It still seems to me that your canons are starting to get slightly ...opaque. How the heck are you going to hold this together through OOP?" "Well, things start to change after the second task in GOF",said Linda. "Neville's character changes purpose. In fact, IMO, he becomes more instrumental to Harry than he had previously been. This aspect of the relationship has actually been in existance has been around since SS/PS. Neville is and is Harry's moral compass, leading him toward the maturity he'll need to continue to fight Voldemort. He does this by example. Despite his magical shortcomings, Neville strikes me as the type of kid who is older than his peers in terms of maturity. I've always seen him in this way. Yes, in some ways he is very young. But in moral developement he is very mature. All the way back to 'standing up to his friends'. It really isn't fully evident, however, until OOP. Once he gets some confidence in himself, his maturity shines through in spades." "Alright, alright I see your point. I'm going to have to think about this a bit, get it all clear in my head", said Cindy. "I just have one more question---for now. What's with the figure eight? " "It symbolizes the never ending connection between Harry and Neville", answered Linda. Note that IMO, Neville is responsible for Harry's moral developement. At the same time Harry is responsible for Neville's rise in confidence-especially in OOP. Their paths are always circling each other, occasionally becoming twisted and crossing, but always connected in the end." "Anyway", Linda said as she turned back to look out at her ship. "I have some canons to polish. Why don't you take a walk on the beach and think on it? You might want to move up a bit more on the sand though. The tide is starting to come in." Then, with a slight pop, she disapperated, leaving Cindy alone on the beach. -linlou, who begs the residents of the bay to be gentle as this is her first TBAY post From princesspeaette at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 06:06:09 2003 From: princesspeaette at yahoo.com (princesspeaette) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:06:09 -0000 Subject: BC-magic&ekeltreecity-DumbleShip-JamesRelatives-Sev'sRelatives-more,look! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79266 Carolina Silmariel wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79225 : << Draco can be Cancer. Jealous, inmature, loyal (to slytherin house), acting by the mood he has that day, not standing laughs on him, likes family, likes to take revenge (also a Scorpio and Virgo trait). Adding details, he can have Scorpio as Ascendent, Moon in Virgo, Mercury in Gemini and Venus in Libra. Sirius is touched by Saggitaurus somehow, I see Snape as a Scorpio/Virgo, Dumbledore can be an eagle Scorpio. >> Catlady replied http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79262 : A few years ago, I messed around with an ephemeris and decided that Draco was born on June 24, 1980 Sun- 3Cn06 Sun- at 3 degrees of Cancer (counts to me as Gemini/Cancer cusp) Moon 17Sc00 Moon at 17 degrees of Scorpio!!!! Merc 24Cn31 Mercury at 24 degrees of Cancer Venu 19Ge05.Venus at 19 degrees of Gemini (the . is supposed to indicate retrograde) Mars 21Vi17 Mars at 21 degrees of Virgo Jupi 5Vi02 Satu 21Vi06 Uran 22Sc01. Nept 20Sg58. Plut 18Li58. I see Snape as a Scorpio like me, Sirius as an Aries, Lupin Aquarius or Pisces, but I think Ron is supposed to be a Taurus, not an Aries. I haven't checked an ephemeris for May 1 (Beltaine), 1980 to see if it suits him. Now me :-) : Speaking as an Aries, I'm a littled offended ;-) by your attempt to give us the unstable dead guy (okay, I just don't like Sirius, he could be, maybe that's why I don't like him) and Ron isn't an Aries, Ron's a Pisces (1/3) and he could fit the "typical" discription (especially if Ron the Seer pans out) * * * * I agree that Snape is a Scorpio (I like scorpios, a lot of my favorite people are scorpios): http://www.astrology-numerology.com/keywords.html Scorpio is intense, determined, powerful, strong-willed, forceful, bold, courageous, enduring, competitive, resourceful, researcher, an investigator, secretive, mysterious, penetrating, psychic, self- reliant, and somewhat introverted or closed. * * * * Lupin *screams* Gemini to me. Aside from the obvious twins/werewolf- wizard connection, here's what I found as astrology keywords for Gemini: Gemini is flexible, versatile, restless, a jack-of-all-trades, lively, alert, quick-witted, literary, communicative, a good conversationalist, changeable, sociable, logical, ingenious, agile, dexterous, intellectual, and mentally ambitious. although Libra also fits: Libra is idealistic, a peacemaker, diplomatic, refined, poised, gracious, kind, courteous, fair-minded, sociable, charming, artistically creative, affable, cooperative, extroverted, and usually somewhat indecisive. * * * * If Sirius ins't an Aries, Saggitarius could fit (with a little stretch): Sagittarius is idealistic, optimistic, freedom-loving, casual, friendly, buoyant, gregarious, enthusiastic, philosophical, studious, farseeing, direct, outspoken, honest, loyal, restless and loves travel. * * * * I don't know if anyone cares what I think Percy is, but it seems so perfect I'm including it: Capricorn is ambitious (power, position, money), organizational, self- disciplined, rigid, thrifty, prudent, security-conscious, conservative, responsible, practical, persistent, political, business oriented, methodical. (I especially like the rigid and political parts) Of course, all of this could be completly irrelevant. The most sweet tempered, introverted, non-competitive person I ever met was a Leo. ~Margaret I realize this got a bit long, you have my apologies Digest readers, I'm one too! From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 06:23:28 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:23:28 -0000 Subject: OT: RE: Lexicon -Flying Broom and Motorcycle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79267 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hp_lexicon" wrote: > > ...edited... > > (more information here: http://www.hp-lexicon.org/brooms.html) > > ...edited... > > Steve Vander Ark > The Harry Potter Lexicon >From the first sentence of the Lexicon Brooms webpage that Steve Vander Ark - 'God and Guardian of all HP Knowledge' posted above... "Flying on a broomstick, particularly one which accelerates as quickly as the Firebolt, must necessarily involve some form of magic protective field holding rider to broom and shielding against wind and inertial forces. Without this, it seems unlikely that anyone could hang on when a Firebolt accelerates from zero to 150 mph in only ten seconds." Just for reference Steve, there are a couple of muggle open vehicles, motorcycles to be exact, that have the acceleration capability of 0 to 150mph in 10 seconds. Suzuki GSX1300R 9.86 sec @ 145.80 mph Kawasaki ZX-12R 10.06 sec @ 142.00 mph The Suzuki has a top speed of 189mph (governor limited, actual top speed is over 196mph; let's just say an even 200mph), so in the additional .14 seconds needed to reach a full 10 seconds of acceleration, I think it is safe to say that it reached 150mph. Not that it's important, but I thought I would pass that on to you, and I thought, as a bit of trivia, others might be interested too. So, if the Firebolt can accelerate to 150mph in 10 seconds, what do you speculate it's top speed is? ...200mph? ...250mph? In my wild imagination, I have speculated that a somewhat small leading edge dome of windscreen builds up in front of the broom, and expands as the broom goes faster. It still unbelievably windy, but if you are lying flat on your broom, it does offer some reasonable protection from the wind. That would make the broom's top speed 'drag limited' by the windscreen. (my guess top=200mph; actual top speed without the windscreen, close to 250mph.) These are the kinds of things I think about late at night. Really... way too much time on my hands. Just a thought, and sorry for the OT. bboy_mn From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 30 06:37:36 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:37:36 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79268 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" > wrote: > > >> I hope that there is no death penalty in the WW - we saw too many > > examples of miscarriages of justice in the UK while the penalty was > > still in force and one gets the impression there has to be the > right degree of hate or power behind it - as Crouch/Moody puts > it "Avada Kevadra's a curse that needs a powerful bit of magic > behind it - you could all get your wands out now and point them at > me and say the words, and I doubt I'd get so much as a nose-bleed." > Geoff > Erin: > Just want to say that yes, there IS a death penalty, the dementor's > kiss. Though what they'll use now that the dementors have gone over > to Voldy, I don't know... > Geoff: In a sense, that's not a death penalty because we're told it's worse than death, it is existence without a soul....... From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 23:12:25 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:12:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's 'Plan' for Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79269 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "njelliot2003" wrote: > In the chapter The Lost Prophesy of OoP, Dumbledore tells Harry > about his plan for him. But what is the plan? The only plan I heard > was to save Harry's life by using the blood link/charm of his Aunt > Petunia. That part of the plan succeeds...but after that I couldn't work out what the rest of DD's plan for Harry entails. > >> Nicholas who-thinks-there-must-be-more-to-the-plan-but-either- DD/JKR- > doesn't-want-to-give-it-away-yet-or-he-missed-something Elliot That's the big one bugging me, too. I've been wondering if the plan was to keep Harry alive long enough to learn all he'd need to learn to be able to fight Voldemort to the death; what if Dumbledore interpreted the prophecy to mean that they'd both die? If that was the case, then loving Harry too much would certainly qualify as interference. How icky, I know, but Dumbledore does say that he caught himself caring more for Harry's present happiness more than the tremendous number of faceless and nameless lives that were at stake... That could indicate that his plan was to sacrifice one life in exchange for many many lives. I'm also wondering if there's still not enough information for us to determine what the plan was. hg From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Fri Aug 29 23:37:08 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:37:08 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79270 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" wrote: > This is the best theory I've heard yet. It makes a great deal of > sense. Well thanx. Now if only someone would come up with a catchy acronym. > The only small thing I can add to this is that perhaps Harry > doesn't really have to die. I've been throwing this out for a > while now, but I just can't help think that it will play a key role > at the end of this series, and it may fit here: "..... a sleeping > potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." > (chapter 8, PS/SS.) Snape brings it up in Harry's first potion > lesson. Could they "trick" that portion of Voldemort's mind into > leaving Harry? > > Just tossing it in. > > Toad (who just can't see JKR really killing off Harry) Interesting idea, but I don't think that the part of Voldemort inside of Harry remains there of its own free will. If that was the case, I'm sure it would have left Harry as soon as Voldemort returned to power. Plus the prophecy also states that Voldemort cannot live while Harry survives. So I'm afraid Harry will first have to die. I wonder though if the Draught of Living Death won't turn somewhere in the coming books. -Maus From mpjdekker at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 00:20:32 2003 From: mpjdekker at hotmail.com (mightymaus75) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:20:32 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79271 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "urghiggi" wrote: > Because she is obviously doing this edification stuff, it seems > clear to me that, no matter what wild plot twists occur at the end, > the following MUST be true: > > 1. Harry's struggles and journey must be seen as significant and > productive. (No "it was all a dream" cheating solutions at the end.) > 2. Harry has to win. He doesn't have to LIVE, but he has to win. If > he dies, his death can't be seen to be dumb, arbitrary, accidental, > trivial, or anything but triumphant, and absolutely necessary for > the greater good. > 3. Evil cannot win, in the end. Ergo LV cannot win, in the end. > And they would be true: 1. Harry's struggles would be very significant. Harry is in a similar situation as Tom Riddle was in years ago. Both are half-bloods, both lost their parents, both had a very tough childhood being raised by muggles. And now in OotP Harry seems to be getting angrier as Voldemort's influence on him seems to be getting stronger. I think Harry may well be going down the same path as Voldemort once did. Harry's choices will then turn out to be very important in the struggle for Voldemort's humanity. Harry choosing not to give up on love will show Voldemort that it's not the situation we're placed in which determines what we are. We can choose ourselves what we become. 2. Harry's death wouldn't be insignificant or dumb. It's through his death that Voldemort would be able to live again. And it's only then that Voldemort can finally be killed. 3. With 'Voldemort will win' I was only referring to Voldemort's big final fight with Harry, not the definitive outcome of the whole series. I believe that in the end it's Voldemort's victory over Harry that causes him to become mortal again. And having just killed Harry it's very likely that one of Harry's friends will be attacking Voldemort right at that moment. Of course Voldemort being the competent overlord that he is, he will have long anticipated all this and put in place the appropriate precautions... right?... -Maus From evangelina839 at yahoo.se Sat Aug 30 07:45:54 2003 From: evangelina839 at yahoo.se (evangelina839) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 07:45:54 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79272 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "fawkes970" wrote: > Another character I'd like to point out is Dudley. I beleive his > birthday is also in the summer: at which point I am not certain but I > just thought if people were going to be figuring out star signals > maybe it would say something about why Dudley is who he is, and what > he may come to be? > > Just a thought: fawkes(pat) Let's see, in PS/SS Dudley celebrates his birthday, Harry comes with him to the zoo and releases the snake. For that, Harry receives a long punishment, and when he is finally let out of his cupboard, summer break has started. I'm not sure where that is... But, anyway, depending on how long Harry's punishment lasted, Dudley's birthday could possibly be as early as (late?) April. So, all of you who know your astrology, pick a suitable star sign from April or June. :) evangelina From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sat Aug 30 10:29:12 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 11:29:12 +0100 Subject: Prophecy Problems Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79273 A thoughtful bundle of threads on prophecy and predestination to muse over. This made me wonder - what is the prophecy archive in the Ministry for? Why keep them all tucked away, inaccessible except to a chosen few? I'm leaning towards the notion that the Dept. of Mysteries is in the business of evaluating prophets and prophecies. A sort of Quality Assurance exercise. Most of us tend to think that the Prophecy can be deciphered and reveal future key events. What if the Boys in the Backroom are more sceptical of Seers? How do you evaluate a seer anyway? Easy - by objectively viewing their track record. Not so easy in our world where it is difficult to prove who said what, when. But the WW can avoid all the argy-bargy of "Oh, yes I did." "Oh no, you didn't." Grab any prophecy that comes along, effectively place it in a security vault so that it can't be altered or accessed by those who might be able to influence events to match (or fail to match) the prophecies. Then sit and wait; see what happens. Eventually a time will come when the prediction can be compared to the real world. Do so. It is only then that the worth of a seer becomes apparent. Trelawney does not have a track record. Her utterances are probably in the 'Amateur, Occasional and Unclassified' section, awaiting proof of their accuracy. Dumbledore probably kept her on at Hogwarts so that if she made any more, he could send them on for eventual testing too. If this is the situation, then it becomes a bit dodgy trying to interpret a prophecy that the WW does not yet accept as proven. JKR - 1, Fans - 0, again! Kneasy From Zarleycat at aol.com Sat Aug 30 12:10:40 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:10:40 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's 'Plan' for Harry In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79274 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hermionegallo" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "njelliot2003" > wrote: > > In the chapter The Lost Prophesy of OoP, Dumbledore tells Harry > > about his plan for him. But what is the plan? The only plan I heard > > was to save Harry's life by using the blood link/charm of his Aunt > > Petunia. That part of the plan succeeds...but after that I couldn't > work out what the rest of DD's plan for Harry entails. > > > >> Nicholas who-thinks-there-must-be-more-to-the-plan-but-either- > DD/JKR- > > doesn't-want-to-give-it-away-yet-or-he-missed-something Elliot > > > That's the big one bugging me, too. I've been wondering if the plan > was to keep Harry alive long enough to learn all he'd need to learn > to be able to fight Voldemort to the death; what if Dumbledore > interpreted the prophecy to mean that they'd both die? If that was > the case, then loving Harry too much would certainly qualify as > interference. How icky, I know, but Dumbledore does say that he > caught himself caring more for Harry's present happiness more than > the tremendous number of faceless and nameless lives that were at > stake... That could indicate that his plan was to sacrifice one life > in exchange for many many lives. > I'm also wondering if there's still not enough information for us to > determine what the plan was. > hg I have too much to do and not enough time and I'm sure one of these days my head will explode. I probably need to reread OoP for the third time, just so all of the detail will start sifting into its proper place. I may be forgetting something or have overlooked something, but it seems clear to me that Dumbledore is powerful enough to kill Voldemort. He had his chances to do so in the Dept of Mysteries, but chose not to. He did say that merely taking Voldemort's life would not satisfy him. And that there are other ways to destroy a man than by killing him. Could Dumbledore not do so because of Vmort's link to Harry? Or could he not do so because he interprets the prophecy to mean that only through Harry will Voldemort be truly defeated, never to rise again? Marianne From mkeller01 at alltel.net Sat Aug 30 12:30:49 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:30:49 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79275 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mightymaus75" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" > wrote: > > This is the best theory I've heard yet. It makes a great deal of > > sense. > > Well thanx. Now if only someone would come up with a catchy acronym. > > > > The only small thing I can add to this is that perhaps Harry > > doesn't really have to die. I've been throwing this out for a > > while now, but I just can't help think that it will play a key role > > at the end of this series, and it may fit here: "..... a sleeping > > potion so powerful it is known as the Draught of Living Death." > > (chapter 8, PS/SS.) Snape brings it up in Harry's first potion > > lesson. Could they "trick" that portion of Voldemort's mind into > > leaving Harry? > > > > Just tossing it in. > > > > Toad (who just can't see JKR really killing off Harry) > > Interesting idea, but I don't think that the part of Voldemort inside > of Harry remains there of its own free will. If that was the case, > I'm sure it would have left Harry as soon as Voldemort returned to > power. Plus the prophecy also states that Voldemort cannot live while > Harry survives. So I'm afraid Harry will first have to die. > > I wonder though if the Draught of Living Death won't turn somewhere > in the coming books. > > -Maus Sorry for not being more clear. I'm also assuming that that part of V. didn't enter Harry of it's own free will. It's, for lack of a better word, trapped and can only be freed with Harry's "death." Could the draught leave you in a state of very near death? Near enough so that you appear to be without a pulse or respiration (simulating death.) Perhaps enough anyway so that that part of Riddle could exit Harry and reunite with Voldemort? Pure speculation on my part. Please don't feel obligated to respond. Toad (who believes JKR is very tricky indeed) From maneelyfh at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 12:41:53 2003 From: maneelyfh at yahoo.com (maneelyfh) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:41:53 -0000 Subject: prophecy/Firenze In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79276 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Journalist" wrote: > Rachna: > If the prophecy was first in the book and then I read Firenze's > warning, I would have questioned it. Since, she has written it so > that it ends with the prophecy, you don't really question it. > > Anyway, the point of my long-winded ramble was that maybe the > prophecy turns out to not be true and Rowling is just stringing us > along. > , humans don't usually have the state of mind to interpret the signs around them correctly, and only a couple people are actual Seers, prophetic lightning rods. > > Thus, it seems very, very likely that Dumbledore interpreted the Prophecy incorrectly. > > -Dan, who wishes Dumbledore would show it to Firenze... > The problem with this line of thinking is that Trelwaney was not in a normal "state of mind". She speaks in an entirely different voice when giving the prophecy. In POA, she did not seem to remember giving the prophecy about someone returning to LV. As flakey as Trelawney appears at times, she has been correct thus far in her prophecies, and even some of her off hand comments. In GOF, before the names were drawn for the Triwizards Tourney, she told Harry he was going to have a very difficult year ahead, and he does. In OOTP, she tells Umbridge she is in great danger, and she was attacked by the centuars. I do think that the tea leaf reading, palm reading, and crystal ball gazing my be a little flakey, and therefore used as a means to distract the reader from Trelawney being legitimate in her prophecies. It will be interesting to see if and how Trelawney and Firenze interact with each other in coming books. Fran From mkeller01 at alltel.net Sat Aug 30 13:07:25 2003 From: mkeller01 at alltel.net (jksunflower2002) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:07:25 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore the bug (was: " Dumbledore watching over Harry") Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79277 > acoteucla wrote: > > > Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry > "closer than he > > realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. The best > explanation to > how > > he knows so much is that he was there when the > incidents > happened. I > > personally favor the idea that Dumbledore is (yet > another) > > unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we > see during > Harry's > > transfiguration OWL. > Toad wrote: > In chapter 16 of PoA while Harry is waiting to take > his Divination > exam; "He settled himself on the floor with his back > against the > wall, listening to a fly buzzing in the sunny > window." Could > Dumbledore be a multi-animagus? Or does Filch need > to buy some fly > strips? >Buttercup: This is possible. Perhaps this is a subtle indication from JKR, who doesn't want to draw too much attention, yet knows that she must must show how Dumbledore is >actually watching over Harry. >I wonder if there are other passages in the books where Harry notices a fly or other insects. Toad again: Chapter 20 of GoF: "He spent the rest of the lesson trying to attract small objects toward him under the table with his wand. He managed to make a fly zoom straight into his hand, though he wasn't entirely sure that was his prowess at Summoning Charms--perhaps the fly was just stupid." Noticed this while doing a re-read. Fuel for the fire....if there is one anymore. Toad (not quite ready to give up just yet) From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 13:24:20 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:24:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030830132420.32002.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79278 --- marika_thestral wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki > > wrote: > > > > Lastly, and a bit of a stretch, is that Snape > > fulfilled the requirements for Slytherin, in all > but > > the pure-bred status, as a muggle-born. > > Chris > > He defenitely didn't grow up among muggles. At least > according to > Black, Snape knew a great number of curses when he > came to Hogwarts. > It's very likely he leart those either for > self-protection or because > he grew up in an environment where somebody (his > father?) used them a > lot. > > Marika (who likes Snape a lot, but in real life > always would go for > somebody like Lupin) > Like I said, it was a stretch, and what I said earlier, a friend was saying that, and I repeated because it was a good arguement. Besides, it was only Black who said that as propoganda, and Black was laughing at the time. Nowhere else is that said or disproved. Combined with that, Hermione is muggle-born and she walked into hogwarts able to do magic. "I've tried a few simple spells just for practice..." (USPS HPatSS 105). Snape did not walk into the school and shoot off every spell he knew. I'm sure he managed to get into the library and found a book with either Dark Arts or higher level magic. Black's statement could only have been derived from the first few days to weeks of school, as Gryffindors had/have little contact with Slytherins. I also use the fact that Snape was picked on and teased. If he was that good at Dark Arts walking into Hogwarts, why would anyone want to pick on him? Chris ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From melclaros at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 14:57:34 2003 From: melclaros at yahoo.com (melclaros) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:57:34 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:=5FWhere=5FSnape=5Fbelongs=5Fon=5Fthe=5Ffamily=5Ftree=85?= In-Reply-To: <20030830132420.32002.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79279 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: > > Besides, it was only Black who said that as > propoganda, and Black was laughing at the time. > >> > I also use the fact that Snape was picked on and > teased. If he was that good at Dark Arts walking into > Hogwarts, why would anyone want to pick on him? > >> me: Oh I don't know, let's ask someone, shall we? "...(Snape was) just a greasy little oddball who was up to his eyes in the dark arts and James -- whatever else he may have appeared to you, Harry -- always hated the Dark Arts" Sirius the man himself, pg. 670, Us ed. I can't think of a better reason to pick on someone, can you? You know, it's sorta like---oh say--burning evil books. That's always a fun passtime for the small-minded. Melpomene, shutting up now. Knowing she's taking this waaay too seriously. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sat Aug 30 16:26:16 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:26:16 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's integrity (was Prophecy problems) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79280 First there was me, and I wrote: >>> Also, remember that DD controls the version of the prophecy that Harry hears, and all those pauses at least offer the possibility that what he shows Harry is edited.>>> Then there was Salit, and he wrote: >> That would make sense except that it would make Dumbledore an outright liar. He told Harry at the beginning of their conversation that he would "tell him everything". Since he has always shown himself an honorable man, I am sure what we have seen is the entire prophecy.>> Then there were a whole bunch of people, and they wrote a series of posts agreeing with this assesment. I must confess myself a little disappointed by the willingness of people on this thread to take Dumbledore at face value. I'm not necessarily rooting for a revival of ESE!DD, but I did expect to warm the cockles of at least a couple of sceptics out there. I'm not entirely sure that Dumbledore has ever conducted himself with the integrity you attribute to him, much less that the section of the prophecy Harry has seen correalates to any objective truth simply because Dumbledore *says* it does. Salit, had Dumbledore really told Harry "everything", would the readers be left making up their own, numerous, conflicting interpretations of the prophecy? You yourself agreed with me that many questions about Harry's ultimate destiny remain unanswered by it. (Me: >>> Don't forget, OoP still hasn't resolved the problem of why James had to die and Lily didn't. I still think there's *something* about those Potters.>>> Salit: >>I agree. I think there was a good reason why Harry was selected and not Neville. I don't believe it was random. But we won't find out until book 7...>>) The fact that Sirius describes Harry as "the last of the Potters" suggests to me that he has some sort of information about the bloodline of the family and its importance to Voldemort that Harry and the reader still don't. And would Order member Sirius really have kept this information from his boss? If we can assume that DD has this information, and Harry doesn't, then it's not to big a step to get to the assumption that he *hasn't* told him everything. And I'm not sure about that "proved himself an honourable man" bit, either. Remember, in the same scene, DD admits that while not actually *lying* to Harry previously, he has been somewhat economical with the truth. Salit again: >>Why otherwise would Dumbledore hire her and keep her at Hogwarts despite being a total incompetent? Why would he order her to stay at Hogwarts even after she is fired? Clearly he fears that Voldemort will capture her and extract the prophecy from her subconscious memory. Now that the record in the DoM is destroyed, this is probably what Voldemort will attempt to do (and I expect that he may very well succeed)>> Aah, that's more like it! Dumbledore keeps her at Hogwarts because he has an *agenda*. Because I think what people often forget about DD is that he isn't really a twinkly-eyed old grandfather with a pocket- full of Werther's Originals. He's a spymaster and tactician. (Please see the mummy of all MAGIC DISHWASHER posts, Pip's "The Spying Game": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 for more.) He exerts a huge amount of control over the narrative of each book, and tends to reveal this control, almost gloatingly, in his annual end-of-term interview with Harry. People in this sort of position often have to play people like pawns and act ruthlessly, even if they're working for a greater good, as I'm sure Dumbledore is. (Although not everyone is convinced - another Fantastic Post to have a look at on this topic is Talisman's "Dumbledore is GUILTY!": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66983) I think it's important to remember that the series seems to be increasingly directing our attention towards the fact that no human being is infallible, and that human characters are not fixed and easily comprehensible. An alternative reading of Dumbledore's actions throughout the books can make him seem astonishingly cold-blooded at times. Listies have debated endlessly the extent of his knowledge of Quirrell's plot in PS, and the moral implications of his complicity in Harry's involvement. He's certainly not as closed a book as you make him out to be. Kirstini (who, incidentally, would like to point out that Dumbledore keeping Trelawny at Hogwarts after her sacking does not in itself prove that she keeps knowledge of her real prophecies in her subconscious. Trelawny is one of the other people able to pick the prophecy up from the Dpt of Mysteries. However, it has just occurred to me that Harry if Pensieves really are objective, Harry may be able to review his memory of the point when it broke and actually listen to what Ghosty Sybill has to say. And I find that thought oddly comforting. From lmbolland at earthlink.net Sat Aug 30 17:06:02 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:06:02 -0000 Subject: SS/PS "third brother" - never mind! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79281 One reason to study sentence diagramming!!! LOL - it was the twin part which caught us, but clearly after study, the twin Fred goes through, and the third brother is George. Sorry!! Not a flint, just muddled reading. Lauri From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sat Aug 30 17:34:01 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:34:01 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:=5FWhere=5FSnape=5Fbelongs=5Fon=5Fthe=5Ffamily=5Ftree=85?= In-Reply-To: <20030830132420.32002.qmail@web12207.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79282 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: Chris: Lastly, and a bit of a stretch, is that Snape fulfilled the requirements for Slytherin, in all but the pure-bred status, as a muggle-born. Marika: He defenitely didn't grow up among muggles. At least according to Black, Snape knew a great number of curses when he came to Hogwarts. It's very likely he leart those either for self-protection or because he grew up in an environment where somebody (his father?) used them a lot. Chris's answer: Besides, it was only Black who said that as propoganda, and Black was laughing at the time. Nowhere else is that said or disproved. Combined with that, Hermione is muggle-born and she walked into hogwarts able to do magic. "I've tried a few simple spells just for practice..." (USPS HPatSS 105). I also use the fact that Snape was picked on and teased. If he was that good at Dark Arts walking into Hogwarts, why would anyone want to pick on him? Marika's answer: I'm all there for discrediting some things that Black said :-) but I don't want to be too unfair either (just a little). The quote I had in mind is one from GoF (pp 460 Br. Ed.) " `Snape knew more curses when he arrived at school than half the kids in seventh year and he was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all turned out to be Death Eaters.' Sirius held up his fingers, and began ticking off names". He is not laughing here at all, and this is one of the few times I really like Black, because he appears stable and less hotheaded than normal. The information he gives about the Slytherins/DE:s is correct, as far as we know, so I can see that what he said about Snape's knowledge might turn out to be true too. About your question why anyone would want to pick on him, I'd say that it wasn't "anyone", but two of the smartest and most popular kids in school. Why would Snape's knowledge stop them from bullying him, when they were at least two against one? It's also likely that Black himself knew some stuff when he came to Hogwarts. Well, this is my take on it. I mean, it's just how I interpret what I read. Marika - a very stubborn, but peace loving Taurus From lmbolland at earthlink.net Sat Aug 30 16:57:15 2003 From: lmbolland at earthlink.net (goodnight_moon5) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:57:15 -0000 Subject: PS/SS "third weasley brother" going through 9 3/4? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79283 My 9 yo son wondered if this was a Flint. When Harry watches the Weasleys going through the wall to Platform 9 3/4, Percy goes first ("the oldest boy"), then Fred and "his twin" goes after him, THEN "the third brother". Who might that be? Ron is still on the platform! We've typed it in below: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~begin quote~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "You're not old enough, Ginny, now be quiet. All right, Percy, you go first." What looked like the oldest boy marched toward platforms nine and ten. Harry watched, careful not to blink in case he missed it -- but just as the boy reached the dividing barrier between the two platforms, a large crowd of tourists came swarming in front of him and by the time the last backpack had cleared away, the boy had vanished. ******note: percy is now gone****** "Fred, you next," the plump woman said. "I'm not Fred, I'm George," said the boy. "Honestly, woman, you call yourself our mother? Can't you tell I'm George?" "Sorry, George, dear." "Only joking, I am Fred," said the boy, and off he went. ******Fred is gone******* His twin called after him to hurry up, and he must have done so, because a second later, he had gone ****george now gone******* -- but how had he done it? Now the third brother was walking briskly toward the barrier he was almost there -- and then, quite suddenly, he wasn't anywhere. ***** who is this? keep reading, Ron's still on the platform******* There was nothing else for it. "Excuse me," Harry said to the plump woman. "Hello, dear," she said. "First time at Hogwarts? Ron's new, too." She pointed at the last and youngest of her sons. He was tall, thin, and gangling, with freckles, big hands and feet, and a long nose. "Yes," said Harry. "The thing is -- the thing is, I don't know how to --" "How to get onto the platform?" she said kindly, and Harry nodded. "Not to worry," she said. "All you have to do is walk straight at the barrier between platforms nine and ten. Don't stop and don't be scared you'll crash into it, that's very important. Best do it at a bit of a run if you're nervous. Go on, go now before Ron." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` end of quote~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Lauri From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 18:13:24 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:13:24 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win - FYI: Harry's Death Threads In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79284 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jksunflower2002" wrote: > > > TOAD org: > > > > > ... perhaps Harry doesn't really have to die. ... this ... will > > > play a key role at the end of this series, and it may fit here: > > > "..... a sleeping potion so powerful it is known as the Draught > > > of Living Death." (chapter 8, PS/SS.) Snape brings it up in > > > Harry's first potion lesson. Could they "trick" ...Voldemort? > > > > > > Just tossing it in. > > > > > > Toad (who just can't see JKR really killing off Harry) > Toad responds to 'snipped' comments: > > ... I'm also assuming that that part of V. didn't enter Harry of > it's own free will. It's, for lack of a better word, trapped and > can only be freed with Harry's "death." Could the draught leave > you in a state of very near death? ... > > Toad (who believes JKR is very tricky indeed) bboy_mn: I weighed in on this in Aug 2002 and Jan 2003. There were a couple of long discussions back then on the possibility of Harry dying and being reborn as a way of defeating Voldemort. These links will lead you to my posts in the discussions, but you can go Up Thread and Down Thread to see what others had to say. Here are some links - Short Version- Fri Jan 3, 2003 1:22 am Re: Harry dying http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49136 Sun Jan 5, 2003 11:15 am Re: JKR's quote about deaths/ Possible Harry 'death' scenario http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/49222 Somewhat longer versions- Fri Aug 2, 2002 7:36 pm Re: Harry's Putative Death http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42051 Mon Aug 5, 2002 4:06 am Re: Harry's Putative Death http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/42124 Completely Wild Prediction- Mon Sep 2, 2002 2:19 am Re: Harry and the Phoenix - Wild Prediction http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/43480 Since it's come up again, I though perhaps some of you would like to see how we viewed the subject in the distant past. Just passing it along. bboy_mn From jsmgleaner at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 19:15:25 2003 From: jsmgleaner at yahoo.com (jsmgleaner) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:15:25 -0000 Subject: TBAY: Blood, Bloodlines, and the Bloody Bloodlines of HP Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79285 Hayes watched as Kirstini, finally emerging from her cabin, walked out on to the deck of the Narrative Ark and promptly slipped in what looked like a puddle. "This place is a mess! What's going on here Hayes?" Kirstini said, poking tenderly at her ankle. "I'm sorry. It's just this new can(n)on I've been cleaning," Hayes said nervously, rushing over to help Kirstini up. MC! James was faster; he handed a plate of tapas to Hayes and knelt down next to the unsteady Kirstini and begged her to use him as a crutch. With one hand on MC! James's head, Kirstini hobbled to a deck chair. That's when she noticed . . . "Ugh. What is this?" "Er, blood." "Blood? How am I going to get this out of the white stripe on my robe?" "Cold water and soap?" Hayes offered, placing the tapas on a table next to the deck chair in lieu of an apology. "Ok, you've stumped me. Why all the blood on the deck?" Kirstini countered. "Well, I dug up this very old can(n)on," Hayes began, warming immediately to the subject as it involved very old things, "and I've been cleaning it all morning." She pointed to a dingy cannon covered in barnacles and seaweed with "Blood" written in an ancient script on its side. It had the very annoying habit of spurting blood in every direction. Hayes dodged a particularly strong current and MC! James ran around with a bucket catching sprays. "You see, this is my own theory-in-progress, but I'm worried the can(n)on may be cracked," Hayes began to scan the cannon for cracks, picking off seaweed as she spoke. "This is about the use of the term 'blood' in the series. In COS, 'mudblood' is introduced with Ron's very obvious explanation that it means 'dirty blood.' In COS and the subsequent books, valuing the 'purity' of blood means being akin to a racist. Drawing on the original meaning of 'race,' family bloodlines (then nationalities), JKR has reminded us about the origins of real world racism. But in both senses 'blood' must be metaphoric. So 'mudblood,' depending on the same metaphor that provided the US South with the 'one drop of black blood' rule, is a racism intent on keeping out the 'contamination' of muggle bloodlines, none of which can be lodged in literal blood. In OOtP, we are also introduced to 'blood traitors' and 'muggle lovers' by Sirius in 'The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black' chapter, further cementing the one-to-one analogy with racism." Hayes took a breath, almost swallowing some blood jetting her way. "What's important, in my opinion, is that the 'good' side depends as much on the metaphor of 'blood' as does the bad side, a shift made very evident in OOtP. In PS/SS, Dumbledore says Quirrell could not touch Harry because of his mother's sacrifice, which left something in his very 'skin.' But when Dumbledore is giving his revelation at the end of OOtP about the mistakes he made in raising Harry, he tells Harry: [Lily] gave you a lingering protection [Voldemort] never expected, a protection that flows in your veins to this day. I put my trust, therefore in your mother's blood . . . . Your mother's sacrifice made the bond of blood the strongest shield I could give you. . . . . While you can still call home the place where your mother's blood dwells, there you cannot be touched or harmed by Voldemort. He shed her blood, but it lives on in you and her sister. Her blood became your refuge. (US 836) Hayes continued, "But as far as we've learned about dying from AK, there is no blood involved, that is, if Lily did die from AK," here Hayes paused, shook her head in confusion, and rushed on, "Either way, could Dumbledore have said the word 'blood' more times in one passage? There's something there..." "And there, and there," Kirstini said as she pointed to every new puddle of blood. Hayes ignored the sarcasm. "And then when LV takes Harry's blood in the graveyard. . ." "Wait a second. That's real blood!" Kirstini exclaimed in exasperation. "Yes, but the sacrifice, protection, or whatever it'll be called by the end of the series, from Harry's mother coursing in his veins is not literal. Metaphor again! Belief in bloodlines informs both the ideologies of the good and the bad sides, confusing the two and making unclear what one means when one talks about 'blood' at all within the context of the book, yet talk about it and depend upon it the good side continues to do, even in sending Harry back to the Dursleys. What we do know is that belief in the 'power of blood,' so to speak, is not isolated to one side of this fight and is causing as much damage as it is saving, and quite possibly the good side may not be able to appropriate it without implicating itself in the ideology of the bad" "So here's the theory," Hayes called from underneath the cannon as she scraped barnacles off of its bottom. "Dumbledore will depend on the blood magic--the ancient magic--but Voldemort will have wised up to what he's doing. I mean," and here Hayes poked her head out from underneath the cannon, "how thick is Voldemort? He must know from his first and second Harry encounter and the Tom Riddle encounter -- if he's privy to that -- that Dumbledore depends on this magic to keep Harry safe at Privet Drive. He even says as much in the graveyard scene of GoF. Although Harry has some safety with the Dursleys, we've already seen that it is vulnerable in OOtP, and I think that it will be utterly invaded in the next book. Dumbledore will be wrong, and not in a 'misjudgment' or 'oops' kind of way where someone who has enlisted in the order -- and taken on the risks involved -- will die; no, he will cause one of the Dursley's deaths. In other words, Voldemort will make clear 'my blood is thicker than your blood' in a grotesque (for a children's book) fashion." "Bloody hell!" Kirstini yelled, startled by a small, twinkling can(n)on called "Ever So Fallible! Dumbledore" dropping down onto the deck and sliding in the blood towards her swelling ankle. MC! James, ever vigilant, jumps in front of the cannon and stops its near collide with Kirstini. Reading the inscription, he sighs, "Another father figure lost. How very sad." Hayes moves to examine the unexpected Dumbledore can(n)on and asks, "Do you think there's room for this? What do you think -- too corny?" Hayes appealed to Kirstini; Kirstini waved her hands, "Hey now, I'm the Temporary First Mate here. You make the calls," she said. "Yeah, but we already have way too many can(n)ons to keep up--more than I can captain alone. Quite promising, I would say. How about becoming a co- captain?" Hayes pointed her wand at a non-bloody part of the deck and a late eighteenth-century, grey rear admiral's hat appeared. "That's a rear admiral's hat, not a captain's hat," Kirstini said flatly. Hayes shrugged. "You know, I'm beginning to think that you have a slight thing for the Napoleonic era," Kirstini said as she raised the hat up and placed it at a jaunty angle on her head. --Hayes/jsmgleaner, who has more to say on the Dursley front, but will think about it some more From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 20:11:27 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 12:11:27 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030830120231.037782c0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 79286 At 12:17 PM 8/29/2003 +0000, hermionegallo wrote: >Potterfanme has started a thread wondering if Percy will apologize. >I have long thought, as all of you must have, that Percy's behavior >in OoP is reprehensible. But because his behavior was so extreme, >I've been forced to wonder if Percy is indeed Percy, when he >certainly isn't acting "himself." The main thing that would >contradict this notion is the prevalence of the the importance of >choice in the series. >Any thoughts? Fred Uloth spewed forth these absurd observations: Let me guess...the ever popular switching spell was used on Wormtail and Percy. Wormtail of course was the perfect person to do this since he lived with the Weasleys for 12 years and spent much of that time with Percy. Poor Percy is being used as the wizarding equivalent of a tackling dummy for new DEs to practice crucio and imerious curses. Hmm...no...I don't buy it. I also don't think Fudge is a DE...don't get me wrong, I can buy the idea of Evil!Fudge, but I don't think he is a DE. I look at it more along the lines of me believing that Josef Stalin was an evil man...but he was not a Nazi. I think Sirius gave us quite the nugget of truth when he said that the world is not divided into good people and death eaters. Fudge and Percy both let personal aspirations cloud their judgement...they are both themselves and neither one is under an imperious curse. That's my From linlou43 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 18:26:52 2003 From: linlou43 at yahoo.com (linlou43) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:26:52 -0000 Subject: PS/SS "third weasley brother" going through 9 3/4? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79287 Laurie wrote: > My 9 yo son wondered if this was a Flint. > When Harry watches the Weasleys going through the wall to Platform 9 > 3/4, Percy goes first ("the oldest boy"), then Fred and "his twin" > goes after him, THEN "the third brother". Who might that be? Ron is > still on the platform! linlou: I read this passage a little bit differntly. > "Only joking, I am Fred," said the boy, and off he went. > ******Fred is gone******* linlou: IMO, Fred is not *gone * at this point just starting toward the divider. > His twin called after him to hurry up, and he must have done so, > because a second later, he had gone > > ****george now gone******* linlou: George is not gone yet, he is calling after Fred to hurry so he can take his turn. If it was Fred calling after he went through the barrier I don't think we would have been able to hear him. > -- but how had he done it? > > Now the third brother was walking briskly toward the barrier he was > almost there -- and then, quite suddenly, he wasn't anywhere. > ***** who is this? keep reading, Ron's still on the platform******* linlou: This is George going through the barrier. Hope that helps-linlou From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sat Aug 30 18:15:14 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:15:14 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Percy References: <1062191536.9451.95689.m14@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002201c36f22$a8ff9840$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 79288 Susan wrote: >Arthur did not accuse Percy of being a spy. He was concerned that >Percy got his promotion because Fudge wanted to USE Percy as a spy. I >did not get the impression that Arthur felt Percy would knowingly spy >on them. Then why have a go at him? After all, Percy had just been the subject of an investigation into his role in Crouch's kidnapping and death. Percy could _very_ easily have come out of it much worse off. He _could_ have ended up in Azkaban. Or playing tonsil tennis with a Dementor. Instead he got a second chance and took it. Personally, I think he deserved a hug and some support off his folks, and when he got attacked instead, I can quite well understand why he _really_ lost his temper with them, all the frustrations of his years as No. 3 son coming out as poison. >I have also been wondering what will happen if, as a lot of posters >feel, Arthur is made the new Minister of Magic. Since Percy was >Fudge's assistant will Arthur keep him if there are no appologies or >will he fire him or demote him? I think if there are no apologies, then Arthur and Percy couldn't work together in the same office, not with the degree of closeness and trust that's needed between Minister and assistant. Before he got the top job, Fudge was a Junior Minister, of course. I wonder who the Junior Ministers are now, and whether Percy would move sideways to work for one of them? Or even get promotion to _be_ a Junior Minister (unlikely given his lack of experience, but who knows? Maybe he's got on the right side of the Right People while he was working for Fudge.) Alternatively we could see a Redeemed!Percy (which I think a lot of us would like), coming back to the family after learning his lesson. But we could also end up (and it's a powerful and convincing argument) with a Barty!Percy, playing the same role this time that Crouch played in the last Voldemort outbreak. In _that_ role, he would still be hostile to the Order, arguing that anyone who isn't working directly for the MoM is effectively working to undermine it. Cheers Ffred O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri From kiatrier at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 18:24:20 2003 From: kiatrier at yahoo.com (Kia) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:24:20 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79289 >Erin wrote: >I don't believe JKR actually was meaning to date the books >when she wrote them, I think she meant them to be more of a >timeless story for the ages type thing. The pinning down of the >exact dates of everything is something that came about >because of the fans. If anything, she erred by writing down the >date of Nick's death, allowing us fans to get a foothold to >speculate. I think Rowling wanted to date Harry Potter when she made 1492 the year of Nick's death. She easily could have avoided giving the year and just mentioned the anniversary. Interestingly enough if 1980 *is* the birthyear of Harry's it means that he would have been ten in 1990 - the year Rowling had the idea - and ten is the age Harry's point of view becomes the story's point of view. But HP will be dated by other things, mostly Dudley's electronic gadgets, but also other little details which can be found in the opening chapters like Frank Bryce coming back from the war etc. That all doesn't necessarily scream 1992 or 1997 but in twenty-five years there won't be any old men left that came back from "the war" and you didn't play Mega-Multilation III on a Playstation in the 80's. So at the end of the day you can't date HP specifically down to a year, but it is very much contemporary and therefore it will age as "Tom Brown's Schooldays" aged by mentioning that King William IV is king even if Hughes didn't give us a specific date. Kia From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Aug 30 21:32:44 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:32:44 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79290 Just a small thought on this new theory, which is not intended to undermine it at all, but more a point of curiosity: why would two adults want to chew such a lot of bubblegum ?? Ok, they have been tortured, and are not in their right minds, but it seems a curious sort of sweet for them to choose. DD likes his sweets, but I can't remember any other incidence of adult wizards eating them in any quantity... I have visions of them both laying in bed, side by side, blowing thousands of beautiful bubbles that drift around the ward ! Is there more to Droobles gum than we have been told, apart from the possibility that it has been tampered with in some way ? Perhaps it is a recognised soft drug in the WW, routinely given to mental patients to keep them quiet and easy to handle. It would fit with the somewhat gormless image that gum-chewing tends to convey. CW From lbiles at flash.net Sat Aug 30 21:33:26 2003 From: lbiles at flash.net (leb2323) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:33:26 -0000 Subject: Snape in SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79291 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "laylalast" wrote: > > Since reading OotP I firmly believe that Snape is being set up to be > seriously accused of being at the evil side for sure. > In my reply to SILK GOWNS (post 79154) I agreed with the idea that > the gum that the Longbottoms apparently receive in much abundance, > contains something that keeps them incapacitated. Why couldn't this > something be a potion? > My theory is that the trio will somehow discover that Snape visits > St. Mungo's. Perhaps through Neville, who has seen Snape there. As > Harry, and Ron as well, are suspicious of him, they will connect this > with the Longbottoms. Next they will begin to wonder about the gum > and in some way discover that it has been tampered with. So, as > Snape comes there regularly and he is a potion master, he used to be > a DE, he is still around LV Oh, yes, a very neat accusation for Harry > and Ron to make. I think that Hermione has difficulties believ. I > even think that it is Lucius Malfoy's set up. That is why I suggested > in my post 79062 that he pays the bill for Agnes' stay at St. > Mungo's. Put Snape's mother in the same ward as the Longbottoms, use > (or let someone else use ? a healer -) a potion to tamper with the > gum and who is the most obvious suspect? Not Lucius, but Snape. Add > his dubious past, his current connections to LV, the fact that Snape > is indebted to Lucius and Snape will have a difficult time proving > his innocence. > Just to play devil's advocate here (not that I actually believe this for a second). . . what if Snape *is* indeed sneaking a potion into the Droobles that the junior wizard candy stripers dutifully and innocently give the Longbottoms as they visit all the patients. Only he's not keeping them insane, he is actually trying to cure them! Mama Longbottom keeps giving the wrappers to Neville trying to let him know that the Droobles are making a difference. And poor Snape. There's nothing like being an unrecognized good guy who is always mistaken for a bad guy to make you really mean and spitefully nasty to the good guys who get all the glory! leb - who hopes that no one takes this too seriously but also wonders what a candy striper's robe would look like! From Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com Sat Aug 30 18:32:48 2003 From: Kiss2Kiss1 at aol.com (l3al3y_Doll_3) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:32:48 -0000 Subject: PS/SS "third weasley brother" going through 9 3/4? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79292 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goodnight_moon5" wrote: > My 9 yo son wondered if this was a Flint. > When Harry watches the Weasleys going through the wall to Platform 9 > 3/4, Percy goes first ("the oldest boy"), then Fred and "his twin" > goes after him, THEN "the third brother". Who might that be? Ron is > still on the platform! > "Only joking, I am Fred," said the boy, and off he went. ******Fred is gone******* His twin called after him to hurry up, and he must have done so, because a second later, he had gone ****george now gone******* Lauri Now me- The third brother is George. Let me re-write it to see how everything sounds now- "Only joking, I am Fred," said Fred, and off he went. Fred's twin, George called after him to hurry up, and he must have done so, because a second later, Fred had gone- but how had Fred done it? (sounds like a tongue-twister, doesn't it) Now the third brother, George, was walking briskly toward the barrier... When it said off he went, it didn't mean he had already gone through the barrier. It meant he started to walk/run towards it. I think you read it as if Fred was the one telling George to hurry up and he did. Remember, when Harry first sees the Weasleys, he describes "a plump woman who was talking to *four* boys, all with flaming red hair." -Maritza From Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 18:39:44 2003 From: Barbara_Bowen at hotmail.com (barbara_mbowen) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 18:39:44 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's integrity Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79293 Kirstini wrote: I'm afraid you're right. We all want to see Dumbledore as the wise, kindly old grandfather. But he's better seen as a General, even a Churchill character, who is fighting a desperate war, a war he must win at all costs. He has to manipulate everyone, especially Harry, who is his weapon. If he is not seen this way, then he must be seen as a frighteningly incompetent old man who keeps almost losing Harry and who will almost certainly lose against Voldemort. Whether he engineered Sirius' death, as Talisman suggested (great post #66983), I haven't decided, but he is definitely more field marshal than grandfather and nothing he does is trivial or merely done for sentiment. In "The Lost Prophecy", DD is telling Harry what every war time leader must do: make painful choices: "I cared about you too much" he says, "more for your life than the lives that might be lost if the plan failed". (p. 838) Right here, he is telling Harry that ultimately his, Harry's, life, is expendable in this war. I would not be surprised if DD is still withholding a tremendous amount from Harry . He is honing his weapon, and that is cold-blooded, but absolutely necessary. However, it causes DD tremendous pain. This is our reassurance that he is still human, and is doing these things because they must be done. However much he may love Harry, he has been and will continue to use Harry as a weapon. To me, this is the big revelation in Oop: the extent to which DD has been manipulating Harry, not the prophecy. Marmelade Mom From gbannister10 at aol.com Sat Aug 30 20:31:58 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 20:31:58 -0000 Subject: PS/SS "third weasley brother" going through 9 3/4? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79294 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "goodnight_moon5" wrote: > My 9 yo son wondered if this was a Flint. > When Harry watches the Weasleys going through the wall to Platform 9 > 3/4, Percy goes first ("the oldest boy"), then Fred and "his twin" > goes after him, THEN "the third brother". Who might that be? Ron is > still on the platform! > > We've typed it in below: > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~begin quote~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > "You're not old enough, Ginny, now be quiet. All right, Percy, you go > first." > > What looked like the oldest boy marched toward platforms nine and > ten. Harry watched, careful not to blink in case he missed it -- but > just as the boy reached the dividing barrier between the two > platforms, a large crowd of tourists came swarming in front of him > and by the time the last backpack had cleared away, the boy had > vanished. > > ******note: percy is now gone****** Geoff: Agreed, Percy is gone. > "Fred, you next," the plump woman said. > > "I'm not Fred, I'm George," said the boy. "Honestly, woman, you call > yourself our mother? Can't you tell I'm George?" > > "Sorry, George, dear." > > "Only joking, I am Fred," said the boy, and off he went. > > ******Fred is gone******* Geoff: Nope, he's still going, because..... > His twin called after him to hurry up, and he must have done so, > because a second later, he had gone > Geoff: No he hasn't because his twin (ie George) is calling after him (ie Fred) > > Now the third brother was walking briskly toward the barrier he was > almost there -- and then, quite suddenly, he wasn't anywhere. > Geoff: So that's George exiting.... > ***** who is this? keep reading, Ron's still on the platform Geoff: Yeah, quite right. Ron is still with Mum and Harry. That's how I read it anyway..... From carolynwhite2 at aol.com Sat Aug 30 21:13:36 2003 From: carolynwhite2 at aol.com (a_reader2003) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:13:36 -0000 Subject: Puzzles: Wormtail's finger and Shrieking Shack tunnel Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79295 I have just been re-reading PoA and two logistics problems occurred to me: (1) How did Wormtail simultaneously cut off his finger and blow a hole in the ground whilst he was holding his wand with both hands behind his back ?? Note also, that Sirius says 'I cornered him', suggesting to me that Peter did not come there willingly to meet Sirius, but had come for some other purpose initially. (2) The tunnel from the Whomping willow to the Shrieking Shack is initially described as so low and narrow that Harry and Hermione had to crouch double to get along it. Then, as Sirius and Remus talk about their schoolboy exploits, they explain that Sirius and James transformed as a bear-size dog and a stag with antlers, but were still able to follow Remus down the tunnel. Later, four adults, some tied together, manage to walk back along it, including Snape in a more-or-less upright position ! Hmmmmmm Any theories ? CW From rsteph1981 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 00:51:21 2003 From: rsteph1981 at yahoo.com (Rebecca Stephens) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:51:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030831005121.30866.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79296 --- vecseytj wrote: > > Well, I tried to snip... but, I've left most of your > post Jim (good > post by the way) I think that Percy *doesn't* like > his family. I > think that Percy, would have *Loved* to be an only > child. I think > that Percy has been looking for an excuce to drop > his family for > years. *And* I think Percy feels this way because > *none* (except > Molly) of his family respect him, listen to him, or > even *like* him... > and I don't think he likes them either. As soon as > Percy had an > excuse he bolted, and I don't think he is coming > back. This just isn't true. No matter what else you say, Percy did not bolt first chance. He lived with his family for a year after graduating. He didn't have to do that. He chose to. Whatever else you say, that cannot be ignored. Rebecca ===== http://wychlaran.tripod.com __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From xmezumiiru at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 21:29:59 2003 From: xmezumiiru at yahoo.com (An'nai Jiriki) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re:_Where_Snape_belongs_on_the_family_tree? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030830212959.64545.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79297 > Marika's answer: > > I'm all there for discrediting some things that > Black said :-) but I > don't want to be too unfair either (just a little). > The quote I had > in mind is one from GoF (pp 460 Br. Ed.) " `Snape > knew more curses > when he arrived at school than half the kids in > seventh year and he > was part of a gang of Slytherins who nearly all > turned out to be > Death Eaters.' Sirius held up his fingers, and began > ticking off > names". He is not laughing here at all, and this is > one of the few > times I really like Black, because he appears stable > and less > hotheaded than normal. The information he gives > about the > Slytherins/DE:s is correct, as far as we know, so I > can see that what > he said about Snape's knowledge might turn out to be > true too. I read it as if he was mocking it, even though it was never stated he was laughing. And then Harry and Ron laugh about it. If BLack was serious, then they would not laugh about it, because it is serious. And for knowing as many Dark Curses, it could not have been much, as using that much Dark MAgic in Hogwarts would result in expulsion or worse. > About your question why anyone would want to pick on > him, I'd say > that it wasn't "anyone", but two of the smartest and > most popular > kids in school. Why would Snape's knowledge stop > them from bullying > him, when they were at least two against one? It's > also likely that > Black himself knew some stuff when he came to > Hogwarts. > If everyone picked on the mini-DEs in school, then why was everyone so afraid of them when they were out of school? It seemed to me that there were alot of names that were out, especially in GoF. If people knew (or guessed) that Snape was in the group that was playing with the muggles, why panic? He was wimp in school, and so easy to pick on. (I don't think Snape was there, but it's a name I could use) It, in my opinion, was propoganda that was started by Sirius that Snape was more dangerous than he was, or we would have seen that in the memory and not seen him beaten so easily. Sirius beleived his own lies after a while. Just the same, the native wizards to England and surround contries were afraid because the wizards they knew to be DEs were not pushover kids, but bullies themselves. While it does happen that a weak person as a child turns out to be powerful as an adult, the concentration of kids that turn into DEs is too high for that to happen. ===== "You irritate me. Kill me now." ~Javert, Les Miserables __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From journalisto at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 02:03:38 2003 From: journalisto at hotmail.com (The Journalist) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:03:38 -0700 Subject: Colin Creevey Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79298 Hey all, What is everyone's thoughts on our favorite peppy little teenybopping fanboy: Colin Creevey? Personally, I think he'll either end up being murdered (poor innocent boy...). He's always armed with his trusty camera, following Harry around--it would make sense that his obsession would reach Voldemort's grey and scaly ears, and that this boy (and brother, Dennis) is muggle-born. That would be a nice way for Voldemort to not only strike at someone close to Harry (not that Harry pays any attention at all to Colin, but that Colin idolized Harry, and he knows it) and have the added bonus of adding to the hysteria, especially amongst muggle-born/halfblood children. But what about before then? In Book Six or Seven, before he reaches an Untimely Death, Colin's character has got to make a reappearance, hopefully with a bit more depth, like we saw in Ginny during Book Five. Perhaps he's moved on to photojournalism, covering the wackiness that goes on at Hogwarts, maybe even starting a newspaper? -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From cathio2002 at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 23:16:55 2003 From: cathio2002 at yahoo.com (Buttercup) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:16:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Dumbledore the bug (was: " Dumbledore watching over Harry") In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030830231655.56076.qmail@web21008.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79299 acoteucla wrote: > > > > > Dumbledore has claimed to have watched Harry > > "closer than he > > > realizes" during his years at Hogwarts. The best > > explanation to > > how > > > he knows so much is that he was there when the > > incidents > > happened. I > > > personally favor the idea that Dumbledore is > (yet > > another) > > > unregistered animagus. I think he's the wasp we > > see during > > Harry's > > > transfiguration OWL. > > > Toad wrote: > > In chapter 16 of PoA while Harry is waiting to > take > > his Divination > > exam; "He settled himself on the floor with his > back > > against the > > wall, listening to a fly buzzing in the sunny > > window." Could > > Dumbledore be a multi-animagus? Or does Filch need > > to buy some fly > > strips? > > >Buttercup: > This is possible. Perhaps this is a subtle > indication > from JKR, who doesn't want to draw too much > attention, > yet knows that she must must show how Dumbledore is > >actually watching over Harry. > > >I wonder if there are other passages in the books > where Harry notices a fly or other insects. > > > Toad again: > Chapter 20 of GoF: "He spent the rest of the lesson > trying to > attract small objects toward him under the table > with his wand. He > managed to make a fly zoom straight into his hand, > though he wasn't > entirely sure that was his prowess at Summoning > Charms--perhaps the > fly was just stupid." > Buttercup: While rereading OotP, I came up with a new idea. Maybe it's Fawkes who's watching over Harry for Dumbledore. When they're in Dumbledore's office after Harry has the vision of Mr. Weasley being attacked by a snake, Dumbledore sends Fawkes to keep a lookout for Umbridge. Fawkes probably did this undercover so Unbridge wouldn't notice, don't you think? Maybe the bird is doing the same with Harry. Somehow he's spying on Harry, without Harry knowing. ===== Buttercup __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com From jazmyn at pacificpuma.com Sat Aug 30 11:23:49 2003 From: jazmyn at pacificpuma.com (jazmyn) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 06:23:49 -0500 Subject: Animagus References: Message-ID: <3F508945.2000905@pacificpuma.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79300 I have a theory on animagus. I believe a wizard with any reasonable skill in transfiguration can turn into any animal they have practiced at. What defines an Animagus is the ability to turn into an animal AT WILL, meaning without a wand. With a wand, they could turn into other kinds of animals, but the animal form they are most specialized in, is their 'animagus form' and they can switch back and forth between this form at will, with or without a wand. Please note that Sirius was able to take the dog form thus, at will. How do I know this? Because he DID NOT HAVE A WAND IN AZKABAN! To use his dog form to escape Azkaban, he had to be able to change without a wand. If you can transfigure all sorts of things into other forms WITH a wand, then there's little to stop you from changing yourself into any form WITH A WAND. Though I suspect that animal forms taken with a wand (or potion.. or a Weasly Wheezes Product even) have a duration and 'wear off' after an hour or so, where an Animagus form can be maintained indefinitely. Thus why animagus have to register is because even if they have no wand, they can take their animal form. Makes it hard to lock them up. Jazmyn From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 00:44:09 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 00:44:09 -0000 Subject: Prophets without honour In-Reply-To: <057C1412-DA3E-11D7-8C31-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79301 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > Dumbledore seriously considered dropping divination classes as being a > waste of time. > Hermione thinks it's rubbish. > Firenze warns against relying on it. > Trelawney inspires no confidence as a teacher. > > So why are we so obsessed, spending hours beating our heads against > *that* prophecy? > > Throughout the series divination in any form is presented as a > 'pretend' subject. 'Pretend' it means something, 'pretend' to do the > set homework, 'pretend' that even if real seers exist, it can be taught > to non-seers. Yet we are expected to take two supposed prophecies as > serious predictions, capable of definitive interpretation. Really? Laura: Your post makes a lot of sense to me, but my question is this: if in fact the prophecy is a red herring, why did JKR spend so much time on it? It's important in that it motivates LV, but if DD really thinks it's no big deal, why didn't he tell the Order and/or Harry? That would have stopped Harry's interest in the corridor dreams for sure- and our beloved Sirius would still be alive. From margdean at erols.com Sun Aug 31 01:23:45 2003 From: margdean at erols.com (Margaret Dean) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:23:45 -0400 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Puzzles: Wormtail's finger and Shrieking Shack tunnel References: Message-ID: <3F514E21.D0918013@erols.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79302 a_reader2003 wrote: > > I have just been re-reading PoA and two logistics problems occurred > to me: > > (1) How did Wormtail simultaneously cut off his finger and blow a > hole in the ground whilst he was holding his wand with both hands > behind his back ?? Note also, that Sirius says 'I cornered him', > suggesting to me that Peter did not come there willingly to meet > Sirius, but had come for some other purpose initially. >From his point of view Sirius may =think= he "cornered" Wormtail, but given the outcome of the encounter (which was definitely Wormtail - 1, Padfoot - 0), I strongly suspect that that was simply what Peter wanted Sirius to believe. Peter had things well planned out in advance, which could well have included holding a previously severed finger behind his back along with his wand. (And why =would= he hold both hands behind his back unless he was hiding something -- such as, for instance, a bloody stump?) > (2) The tunnel from the Whomping willow to the Shrieking Shack is > initially described as so low and narrow that Harry and Hermione had > to crouch double to get along it. Then, as Sirius and Remus talk > about their schoolboy exploits, they explain that Sirius and James > transformed as a bear-size dog and a stag with antlers, but were > still able to follow Remus down the tunnel. Later, four adults, some > tied together, manage to walk back along it, including Snape in a > more-or-less upright position ! Hmmmmmm It's MAGIC! :D --Margaret Dean From lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net Sun Aug 31 01:24:42 2003 From: lliannanshe_ensueno at verizon.net (Lliannanshe) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 01:24:42 -0000 Subject: Droobles Blowing Gum - Not Anagram In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79303 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "ninnamie" wrote: > Regarding anagrams of Drooble's gum, Snape's name, etc., JKR has > already done the anagram thing with "Tom Marvolo Riddle." Don't > y'all think she's creative enough not to do it twice? > > Instead of focusing on how to apply the literary techniques we've > already seen into new situations, why not try to think of New and > Original twists she might throw in? She's far too brilliant to use > the same gimmick more than once. You lead me to think of a puzzle "Cryptograms" I couldn't get it to work with the word "BEST" D R O O B L E S B L O W I N G G U M B U D D H I S T H I D A L G O O N E Buddhist - Follower of the teaching of Buddha, that life is permeated with suffering caused by desire, that suffering ceases when desire ceases and enlightenment obtained through right conduct, wisdom and meditation releases one from desire, suffering and rebirth. Hidalgo - Old Spanish for son One- Beiung a single entity, unit, object, or living being What each character "desires" seems to be a prevalent theme in the stories. It reminded me of SS/12/214 "It does not do to dwell on dreams and forget to live." Could Mrs. Longbottom, be trying to give her son a similar message? Lliannanshe http://lliannanshe.blog-city.com From coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 04:38:15 2003 From: coriolan_cmc at hotmail.com (Caius Marcius) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 04:38:15 -0000 Subject: No More Days (filk) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79304 No More Days (OOP, Chap. 36 ? sort of ) To the tune of Nowadays from Chicago (a hybrid of the stage and film version) Dedicated to Kirstini (good luck on your thesis!) THE SCENE: The Ministry of Magic. LORD VOLDEMORT has taken full possession of HARRY and challenges Dumbledore to kill them. Complete blackout. Then a single spotlight on the animated statue of the house-elf from the Atrium as it performs the Sonorum spell on itself: HOUSE-ELF STATUE (spoken): Ladies and Gentlemen, we are proud to announce a first. The first time, anywhere, there has been an act of this nature. You've read about them in The Daily Prophet and now here they are, for the first time in Canon inhabiting a single body - those dueling Doppelgangers, those oppositional orphans: Harry James "The Boy Who Lived" Potter and Lord "Don't Call Me Tom" Voldemort! (Spotlight pivots to reveal HARRY dressed in Death Eater robes. Addressing Dumbledore, he sings in the cold high voice of LORD VOLDEMORT.) HARRY He's good, isn't he? Grand, isn't he? Great, isn't he? Gross, isn't he? Dead, won't he be? No more days. There's fear everywhere Angst everywhere Rage everywhere Death everywhere Hate everywhere No more days You can slay the soul I'm seizing You can win the wizard war If you merely murder Harry To vanquish Voldemort And you . Must, musn't you? Will, wouldn't you? Won't , musn't do? Can't , couldn't you? Fun, isn't you... (HARRY, seizing control of his inner mike, in his own voice pleads Dumbledore to let him die) I can be a boy unliving You can end this pain attack I can lose my life as Harry And be once more with Black For he's Bold, wasn't he? Brave, wasn't he? Just, wasn't he? True, wasn't he? Loved, wasn't he? But nothing (With a great WHOOOSH!, the spirit of VOLDEMORT abruptly departs from HARRY. A couple of moments later, the flesh-and-blood (?) Dark Lord Apparates upon on the scene, holding his hands over his ears) VOLDEMORT (spoken, to HARRY) All right, all right! I give! I give! Knock it off with the singing, already ! Sheesh, I despise these cheap sentimental songs! HARRY & VOLDEMORT (music) In just two years or so One of us dies, you know I'll be survivin' Your last phase . HOUSE-ELF STATUE (spoken) Okay, you rival Wizards, let's pick up the pace! Let's snake the You- Know-Whose away! Let's make the narratives longer, the conspiracies more complicated, let's make the FEATHERBOAS more flamboyant. Let's all go to hell on a fast thestral and KEEP IT DARK! (The spotlight pivots to reveal HARRY & VOLDEMORT in full formal attire) HARRY & VOLDEMORT (eyeball to eyeball, music) And we Brawl, doesn't we? Clash, doesn't we? Fight, doesn't we? Spar, doesn't we? Duel, doesn't we? The world's ablaze .. In just two years or so One of us dies, you know I'll be survivin' Your last phase . (THE DARK LORD and HARRY tapdance their way through MOM's Atrium in "The Poison Honey Rag" before an ever-increasing crowd, including, finally, Cornelius Fudge.) VOLDEMORT (spoken): You know something, Potter, I hate you! HARRY (spoken): Well, this is one narrative format in which that's no problem at all. (HARRY & VOLDEMORT fires their wands at MOM's peacock-blue ceiling to spell out the words THE SECOND WAR BEGINS. The entire crowd is covered in falling FEATHERBOAS ) HARRY & VOLDEMORT Oh, if there be strife, Then I will take your life `Gainst/through Ke-da-vrazz!! (VOLDEMORT vanishes, as HARRY is mobbed by Hogwarts and MOM associates) - CMC HARRY POTTER FILKS http://home.att.net/~coriolan/hpfilks.htm (updated yesterday with 66 new filks/two new musicals) From uncmark at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 05:29:36 2003 From: uncmark at yahoo.com (Mark D.) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:29:36 -0000 Subject: Weasley Cousin discussion anyone? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79305 I read in a JKR interview that she had planned to introduce a Weasley Cousin. There were a few posts concerning Nymphydora Tonks,which we know from OOP Ch. 6 is related to thwe Weasleys, but so are the Malfoys, Blacks, Lestranges, and probably every pureblood English family. My guess for a Weasley cousin is a student who we are told has two wizard parents and lives near Ottery St. Catchpole.... Luna Lovegood! She's my favorite new character and has much more depth of character development than Cho Chang. Ok, we don't KNOW that Luna lives there, but from GOF we know that a family named Lovegood lives there (Amos Diggory mentioned them right before the portkey) I think the cousin JKR mentioned would be a classmate of Harry, not an auror 5 years older. However as far as Weasley cousins, there is no shortage of them in the inbred pureblood families. BTW did we ever find out whether the Potters were related to Black? I look forward to book 6 & 7 to find out more about them. From eyalronel at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 13:43:57 2003 From: eyalronel at hotmail.com (luppl) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:43:57 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79306 Fran: > Most posters to this message board seem to agree about the bubble gum and/or wrappers containing something that is keeping the Longbottoms in their addled state. Its also been brought up by me as well as others that Neville will be the one to figure this out and cure them. So, how will this play out? I think Neville will get into a conversation with HRH, questions will be asked, and the group, with Hermione in the lead, figure it out. Remember at the hospital, gran knew all about Hermione since she had helped Neville on many occasions. Anyone else? >>> Eyal (luppl) tends to agree. The way Sirius ended really shocked me, since I least expected him to be the one to go, and so there is a real shortage in Aurors around (Sirius being a key element). So it seems very logical for the Longbottoms to come around to service against the Dark forces, and who's better in solving their troubled position than our HRH. Can't wait to read this happen. Eyal From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sat Aug 30 17:52:29 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 17:52:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference In-Reply-To: <001e01c36ceb$cc7f1220$0b444fcb@locxvcym> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79307 Donna wrote: > > Okay! Okay! Enough already about Harry being gay. We really > > won't know until we hear it from JKR. It is wonderful to > > debate these points, but we have no canon to support that. Michael Chance wrote: > There is canon is support just about anything - a lot of it > depends how the person reads it, their generalised viewpoint, > etc etc etc..... :) Jeff: I agree. Anybody can make anything appear to be in their favor somehow. Also, even if it might not make sense to others, another's view can be argued so that it could make sense later. Donna: > > I think it is high time we got back to the original thread. > > The SHIPs between the characters. Michael: > We are! :) Personally don't think Harry, or Ron or Hermione is > gay, but that doesn't stop from liking threads like this one and > I'd be very upset if people stopped talking about things like this > simply because other people don't like reading about the possibility > of any of the characters being gay :( Jeff: I agree. If we can't discuss the idea, then why have the group? If the group is only for PC (READ: BORING) discussions, then it's no different than the other 5,000 or so fangirl-Mary Sue type groups out there. :P Harry could be bi, btw. He's been in a closet so long, he has no concept of what he really likes. I'm sure suddenly having to both be naked with strangers and see them nude all the time, when puberty hits he's naturally intrested in the others. With Ron having older brothers and even having to share a room with the Twins until the two oldest moved out for good, I'd say he knows a bit of what boys can do for fun after lights out. Doesn't make them gay either, just part of growing up. Percy could certainly be gay, he's so uppity that he comes across as being rather nelly at times, at least imho. Michael: > Out of all of the younger characters the only one I can easily > picture being gay is Justin FF, as he was the only boy who fawned > over Lockhart in CoS if I remember correctly. (He was certainly the > only boy who came across as liking Lockhart instead of thinking he > was a complete git :) ) Jeff: Ah, that's true too. He does seem to be as lovestuck as the girls are, doesn't he? But let's not forget about Colin Creevy. His stalking of Harry sounds rather like a big crush to me. Jeff From eyalronel at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 14:32:16 2003 From: eyalronel at hotmail.com (luppl) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 14:32:16 -0000 Subject: Voldemort will win In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79308 Eyal replies: I really like this thread of thought, and it would really be great for the plot to have such an outstanding twist, Harry dying, but there's a slight problem to this. You see, from the very first moment of Harry's eleventh birthday up to this point, the whole story was told from Harry's own, individual point of view. Note that even within the hardest of struggles, Harry is among the last few people to stay conscience to witness the event, for us to witness it. The little bit of what he misses after fainting is told him afterwards, and you don't really feel like missing a whole lot. Thus, if LV is to kill Harry, the whole story afterwards would have a very strange twist. Because up till now the whole point has been that everyone (Dark, that is) tries to kill Harry, but eventually fails, changing this would make a queer, bizzare new way of looking at things. I don't know if this will work. From tuck668 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 03:39:37 2003 From: tuck668 at yahoo.com (tuck668) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 03:39:37 -0000 Subject: Sirius' wand Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79309 While rereading OOP, I had this sudden revelation about Sirius. (I apologize profusely if this has been discussed. I've tried searching but the search engine is a bit iffy. If it has been discussed, I would be incredibly grateful if someone could point me toward those posts.) When a wizard goes to Azkaban, especially for a life sentence, I assumed that their wand was broken, or at least confiscated in some way. Yet, in OOP, Sirius has a wand and it is never mentioned how he got it. This could just be a minor detail that isn't worth explaining, but it has been bugging me for a few days. It seems unlikely to me that someone else bought him a wand, as it is, after all, the wand that chooses the wizard. Any comments? -Anna From silverdragon at ezweb.com.au Sun Aug 31 05:03:49 2003 From: silverdragon at ezweb.com.au (silverdragon at ezweb.com.au) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:03:49 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: significant dates (was characters' star signs) References: Message-ID: <001001c3700d$2efa7ec0$76984cca@Monteith> No: HPFGUIDX 79310 "ffimiles" wrote: > Other dates - Hermione's birthday? Other than being the same as my > sister's...I can't think of anything happening in mid-September. The Autumnal Equinox on the 21st/22nd? Northern Hemi that is at least. Nox From marika_thestral at yahoo.se Sun Aug 31 05:11:27 2003 From: marika_thestral at yahoo.se (marika_thestral) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:11:27 -0000 Subject: =?iso-8859-1?q?Re:=5FWhere=5FSnape=5Fbelongs=5Fon=5Fthe=5Ffamily=5Ftree=85?= In-Reply-To: <20030830212959.64545.qmail@web12208.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79311 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, An'nai Jiriki wrote: Marika: > > About your question why anyone would want to pick on > > him, I'd say that it wasn't "anyone", but two of the > > smartest and most popular kids in school. Why would > > Snape's knowledge stop them from bullying him, when > > they were at least two against one? It's also likely that > > Black himself knew some stuff when he came to Hogwarts. Chris: > If everyone picked on the mini-DEs in school, then why was > everyone so afraid of them when they were out of school? Marika: ??? We don't know if everyone picked on Snape - we just know that the majority of the kids his year were not willing to stand up for him when bullied by Potter and Black, and we can assume from his body language that he had a low selfesteem and wasn't popular. When it comes to the DE:s in general, I don't think all of them were picked on. Weather feared or not in school, I don't have the slightest..., but why can't they be feared after they have left school, when belonging to a big group of fanatics and/or sadists. By the way, I believe most of the people who are scarred of the DE:s don't fear singel individuals as much as being attacked by a whole bunch of them - probably hooded as well. Chris: > It seemed to me that there were alot of names that were out, > especially in GoF. If people knew (or guessed)that Snape was > in the group that was playing with the muggles, why panic? > He was wimp in school, and so easy to pick on. (I don't think > Snape was there, but it's a name I could use) Marika: What muggle picking do you refer to? The ones that took place before Voldemort's disapearance or the one at the quidditch world cup? Anyway, why would a horrible act be less scary because one of the bad guys wasn't feared in school? Chris: > It, in my opinion, was propoganda that was started by > Sirius that Snape was more dangerous than he was, or > we would have seen that in the memory and not seen him > beaten so easily. Sirius beleived his own lies after a > while. Marika: The way I see it, is that Black could have been right about Snape's knowledge, but wrong about him being dangerous - if he ever thought so. Marika - who will be very upset if Snape either dies or turn out evil. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 23:22:18 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:22:18 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79312 Entropy wrote: > Maybe the wrappers are not all bubblegum > wrappers. Perhaps she has given him other types of candy wrappers as > well. In that case, they are a clue to "candy". That is, maybe she's > saying that "fudge" is responsible (is this too much of a stretch?). > Or, Droobles does start with the letters Dr., so maybe it's a clue to the doctor's name, which we'll see in Book 6. Is this lame? >>> I'm really bugged by the gum wrappers myself. I, like Potterfanme, don't believe DR stands for doctor, because doctors are considered by wizards to be "those nutters who cut people up," as Ron so delicately points out. (And recall dear Molly's reaction to Arthur getting stitches...) The ward is the "long term residents ward" and it's ward number 49. There isn't anything unusual about the environment except for the glowing bubbles, which are referred to at least three times. But I believe those are everywhere, not just ward 49. I've wondered if there was some tainted cleaning solution poisoning the air -- and hence the minds of everyone in ward 49, including Healer Miriam Strout (who would have had to aced her Herbology NEWT to be a healer and who didn't recognize devil's snare) and Neville (who is forgetful to an extreme). Because these people, in addition to Lockhart and Bode, seem to be adversely affected, I can't chalk it up to a potion. RSFJenny is putting together a theory if you're interested in pursuing it further! hg From mehndimama at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 15:15:35 2003 From: mehndimama at hotmail.com (mehndimama) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 15:15:35 -0000 Subject: The characters and their star signs, are they suited? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79313 Evangelina: > But, anyway, depending on how long Harry's punishment lasted, Dudley's birthday could possibly be as early as (late?) April. So, all of you who know your astrology, pick a suitable star sign from April or June. :) >>> I would pick Gemini Dudley reminds me of a friend's daughter, a Gemini - very forceful personality, prone to pitching fake tantrums to get her way (which often happens, just to shut her up - very Petunia-ish!), must have every new thing out there, no matter the cost - or even if it will actually be used.... I know I'm being totally superficial here, and no harm meant to Gemini members! That's simply what came to mind. Becky Proud supporter of Neville Longbottom From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 07:55:39 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:55:39 -0000 Subject: Sirius' wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79314 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tuck668" wrote: > > ... I assumed that their (sirius's) wand was broken, or at least > confiscated in some way. Yet, in OOP, Sirius has a wand and it is > never mentioned how he got it. > > ...edited... > > Any comments? > > -Anna bboy_mn: Siruis's wand appears at roughly the same time that Sirius's home appears. I speculate that when Sirius went to prison, his personal belongings were returned to his family. When Sirius went back to his house, he found his wand. A few weak points to this theory, but I still think it is workable. One question might be, why would his parents keep his wand if they hated him? Could be they just threw everything into a draw or a trunk and forgot about it; simple didn't want to deal with it. I could also be that Sirius had more than one wands. There are already hints in the book that people do have more than one wand in their lifetime. Example, Ron used Charlie's old wand. Just a thought. bboy_mn From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 08:57:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:57:25 -0000 Subject: Puzzles: Wormtail's finger and Shrieking Shack tunnel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79316 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > I have just been re-reading PoA and two logistics problems occurred > to me: > > (1) How did Wormtail simultaneously cut off his finger and blow a > hole in the ground whilst he was holding his wand with both hands > behind his back ?? ... Sirius says 'I cornered him', > suggesting to me that Peter did not come there willingly to meet > Sirius, .... > bboy_mn: Well, the best we can do, if we assume that the book is true, is combine gross speculation with what we think might be likely. Given that, I will take a stab at it. "... he was holding his wand with both hands behing his back ?? ..." Oh really...? How do you know he was holding his wand with BOTH hands? I can picture several ways in which he could have cut off his finger and blasted the street. As a simple test, take a pen or a pencil and hold it in one hand behind your back with the point pointing down at the floor. ...there, that wasn't so hard, was it? Now put your other hand behind your back and put a pen mark at the base of you index finger. ...again, not so hard, was it? He could have cut his finger off behind his back and let the severed finger fall to the ground, then pointed his wand a few feet to the side and blasted the hole in the street. When the blast went off, he instantly transformed. Being a rat that was very small and close to the ground, the bulk of the blast and debris would have gone well over his head. In the distraction, he scurried across that short stretch of ground, into the crater, and down into the sewer. ...Bada-bing bada-boom. As far as who 'cornered' who, the expression 'cornered him' doesn't mean literally in a corner. It is a general expression that means you have confronted a person in such a way that they are unable to avoid the confrontation. You could 'corner' someone in the middle of a large open field without a literal corner in sight. And, you are right, Peter wasn't willingly there for the purpose of meeting Sirius. Sirius caught up to Peter, as Peter moved through the muggle world thereby hoping to avoid detection by wizards. It's possible that Peter was in an area where he had friends, or perhaps it was several blocks from where his mother's or uncle's wizard's house was hidden in London. There are lots of possible speculations about how Sirius could have found Peter in a big city like London. Either way, the way I read it is that Peter was moving through muggle London to avoid detection by wizards, and Sirius was still able to track him down and confront him on a muggle street. > (2) The tunnel from the Whomping willow to the Shrieking Shack is > initially described as so low and narrow that Harry and Hermione had > to crouch double to get along it. Then, as Sirius and Remus talk > about their schoolboy exploits, they explain that Sirius and James > transformed as a bear-size dog and a stag with antlers, but were > still able to follow Remus down the tunnel. Later, four adults, some > tied together, manage to walk back along it, including Snape in a > more-or-less upright position ! Hmmmmmm > > Any theories ? > > CW bboy_mn: Well, if the mechanics of one method seem impossible, yet we accept that it is true, then logically, they used anther method. First, the book doesn't say they all transform and went into the tunnel. It says Peter/Wormtail transformed so he could press the knot and freeze the tree. Then they went into the tunnel, not they all transformed and went into the tunnel. The logical logistics would be, the rat stops the tree, and they all go into the tunnel. When they get to the Shrieking Shack end of the tunnel the rat goes through into the house first to create a distraction. Then the dog transforms and enters the room to help restrain the werewolf. Then James steps into the room and transforms into a stag. The rat and the dog are small enough to enter in animal form and control the werewolf. Prongs/James being much larger, had to enter the room as a man, and then transform. As far as getting out of the Shack for their adventures, Lupin said under the influence of his friends he was calmer and more managable. So, the rat, the werewolf, and the dog went through the tunnel first; the dog being able to control the werewolf if necessary. Once they were out of the Whomping Willow end of the tunnel, the wolf, rat, and the dog wait in the forest for James to join them as a stag. ...and the adventure begins. As far as Harry and friends getting out after the Shrieking Shack incident. You can't look at it and say, 'that couldn't happen'. You have to assume it did happen then search for a likely explaination. Harry does comment that the three people chained together were having a hard time moving through the tunnel, and that progress was slow. So that seems a reasonable explaination for that part. Harry, Sirius, and Harry didn't have any restictions, ie: weren't chained to anyone, so they could move somewhat normally in the cramped space. That only leave Snape to explain. If the space was that confined then it would seen logical that Snapes feet were dragging on the ground causing him to move forward with his body inclined at a forward leaning angle; that is, head leading and feet trailing behind. We also know from Harry's observations that Snape was frequently bumping his head. So, Snape's head was as high as the ceiling would allow, and his feet dragged behind as he was locomotored forward through the tunnel. Seems reasonable to me. Of course, that's just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 21:51:01 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 21:51:01 -0000 Subject: Snape in SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79317 "a reader2003" asks in 79290: (snipped) "...why would two adults want to chew such a lot of bubblegum ??" "laylalast" adds to the topic: (snipped from 79291) "In my reply to SILK GOWNS (post 79154) I agreed with the idea that the gum that the Longbottoms apparently receive in much abundance, contains something that keeps them incapacitated. Why couldn't this something be a potion? My theory is that the trio will somehow discover that Snape visits St. Mungo's. Perhaps through Neville, who has seen Snape there..." "leb2323" plays devil's advocate (79291): "...what if Snape *is* indeed sneaking a potion into the Droobles that the junior wizard candy stripers dutifully and innocently give the Longbottoms as they visit all the patients. Only he's not keeping them insane, he is actually trying to cure them!" me, hg: I've thought that it's not the gum itself, but that Alice is conveying a message with the wrapper. We would think that if all that Drooble's was being chewed, that an awful lot of bluebell colored bubbles would be hanging around. I do believe, as laylalast says, that something is indeed keeping the Longbottoms incapacitated. But I don't believe it's the gum. And although leb2323 doesn't subscribe to Snape mucking w/ the Longbottoms' diet, I do like the idea of the bad guy trying to do something good under cover, and having it all fly back at him full force. It seems like it would fit for Snape, whether in connection with the Longbottoms or something else. hg. From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sat Aug 30 00:58:15 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 00:58:15 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79318 Fran "maneelyfh" wrote: > Most posters to this message board seem to agree about the bubble gum and/or wrappers containing something that is keeping the Longbottoms in their addled state...I think Neville will get into a > conversation with HRH, questions will be asked, and the group, with > Hermione in the lead, figure it out... Anyone else? Actually, I think that the wrappers are a clue to what's keeping the Longbottoms shackled (in whatever way they are) and are not indicative of the cause. And I don't think HRH will figure it out; I think Luna will. hg From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sat Aug 30 16:13:57 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 16:13:57 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Dorms ? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79319 Does anybody think that they change dorms every year, or do they keep the same one all the time? In Harry's year it's just 5 boys. We don't really know the size of their dorm, or which floors house the other years, sexes or washrooms, bath areas. Is their dorm the one vacated by last year's graduating class? Is the dorm fairly large so that they can house 20 or more students, or do they have different sizes, or do they make you move up the tower with each school year? Comments? Jeff From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 05:11:26 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 05:11:26 -0000 Subject: Aiming Wand at Bellatrix Lestrange: CRUCIO! Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79320 Bellatrix recovers very quickly from Harry's attempt to Crucio! her and then taunts him that he can't do it because he didn't hate enough. Nobody knows Harry tried to do this, and he is unlikely to discuss it (it being unforgivable and all) with anyone and will probably just believe what Bellatrix told him. But should we? A couple of things bother me about this: Harry has never cast this spell before; don't most major spells have to be learned and practiced in order to pack any punch? And Bellatrix has very likely been Crucio'd by the best (worst): Moldevort himself. Wouldn't that likely make her someone on whom few people could cast effectively cast the spell? Wouldn't she have some, ah, resistance (like Harry does to Imperio!)? If Harry does believe her, and if he is bothered by his inability to deal with her effectively, will he work very hard on learning how to hate effectively enough to hurt her/DE's in general next time? While the power Harry has that is beyond the Dark Lord's ken is very likely *love*... Just some thoughts. "msbeadsley" From rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu Sat Aug 30 22:15:38 2003 From: rdas at facstaff.wisc.edu (susanbones2003) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:15:38 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's integrity (was Prophecy problems) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79321 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: Regarding Dumbledore's ultimate motive: > He exerts a huge amount of control over the narrative of each book, > and tends to reveal this control, almost gloatingly, in his annual > end-of-term interview with Harry. People in this sort of position > often have to play people like pawns and act ruthlessly, even if > they're working for a greater good, as I'm sure Dumbledore is. > (Although not everyone is convinced - another Fantastic Post to have > a look at on this topic is Talisman's "Dumbledore is GUILTY!": > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/66983) > I think it's important to remember that the series seems to be > increasingly directing our attention towards the fact that no human > being is infallible, and that human characters are not fixed and > easily comprehensible. An alternative reading of Dumbledore's actions > throughout the books can make him seem astonishingly cold-blooded at > times. Listies have debated endlessly the extent of his knowledge of > Quirrell's plot in PS, and the moral implications of his complicity > in Harry's involvement. He's certainly not as closed a book as you > make him out to be. > > Kirstini > (who, incidentally, would like to point out that Dumbledore keeping > Trelawny at Hogwarts after her sacking does not in itself prove that > she keeps knowledge of her real prophecies in her subconscious. > Trelawny is one of the other people able to pick the prophecy up from > the Dpt of Mysteries. > However, it has just occurred to me that Harry if Pensieves really > are objective, Harry may be able to review his memory of the point > when it broke and actually listen to what Ghosty Sybill has to say. > And I find that thought oddly comforting. Me: Having followed Talisman's trail for a while, I can tell you she has never asserted that Dumbledore is evil. He is a great wizard who has to do some very difficult things. If that makes him cold-blooded, then so be it. But she never doubts his ultimate motives for a moment. Jennifer From sues0101 at hotmail.com Sat Aug 30 13:42:05 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 13:42:05 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Predestination (was Re: prophecy/Firenze) Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79322 "boyd_smythe" wrote: >Harry could, for example, allow LV to "live" by >forsaking his responsibility and simply running away forever--or at >least until he is found and destroyed. He could give up and die. He >could choose to walk into the battle already defeated in his own >heart, and allow LV to finish him off with little fight. >Then there is his other option. He could try his best to stop LV from >destroying his newfound life, his friends, his classmates, and the WW >as we know it. Sue: At the risk of sounding flippant here, maybe Voldy will catch fire, Harry will choose to do the decent thing and put him out and he'll melt like the wicked witch of the west in Wizard of Oz. LOL Sue From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 31 10:04:01 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (arrowsmithbt) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 10:04:01 -0000 Subject: significant dates (was characters' star signs) In-Reply-To: <001001c3700d$2efa7ec0$76984cca@Monteith> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79323 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, wrote: > "ffimiles" wrote: > > Other dates - Hermione's birthday? Other than being the same as my > > sister's...I can't think of anything happening in mid-September. > > The Autumnal Equinox on the 21st/22nd? Northern Hemi that is at least. > > Nox Just to stir things up a bit, have you considered that Sept stands for seven? This was considered a few weeks back, but petered out. What calendar does the WW use? They celebrate the major festivals but I can't recall a mention of New Year, strange given the presence of McGonagall. The current convention starting with January was introduced in 1752, the old calendar started on 25th March. (Still used by the Inland Revenue in the UK with the eleven days from the change from Julian to Gregorian added). Wouldn't that be fun! Is JKR that devious? Hermione saves the world! Egg on face all round. If she does, I'll explode. Kneasy From jeffl1965 at hotpop.com Sat Aug 30 19:08:29 2003 From: jeffl1965 at hotpop.com (jeffl1965) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:08:29 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual preference- Sue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79324 Sue: > Thanks Jeff, and in my further reading of OoTP, I found something > else (another evil chuckle here). When Harry comes into the kitchen > for dinner on his first night at 12 Grimmauld Place, he sees Mr > Weasley and Bill talking at the table. Mr Weasley comes over to > him and says hello, but Harry ignores him and looks over his > shoulder at Bill, who he notices is still wearing his hair long, > and talks to him instead. > > AND, in GoF who were the people allowed to stay in the infirmary > after Harry's run in with LV and Crouch/Moody? His two best friends, > Mrs Weasley (mother figure) and Bill. You can read into it what you > like here can't you? Plus harry says he had a great day showing the > two of them around. Jeff: You're welcome, Sue. While I can admit that Harry has had no heroes or even friends prior to Hogwarts, it does appear that he has a bit of a crush on Bill. Does it mean he, Harry, is gay? Maybe, maybe not. Let's not forget that he and Ron are almost joined at the waist as well. While this doesn't really support that Harry's gay, at least bi, because when they get that close, sexual experimentation *does* happen at times. I mean, Ron has 5 older brothers, if he hasn't been exposed to something, at least wanking, I'd be very shocked. And who would teach Harry about that? :) BTW, what about Dean and Seamus? I see lots of fanficces that has them as a pair, and Seamus is always a slut. Even in the het ficcies, Seamus is usually gay, and a slut. Why is that? What supports that theory? I guess I can see him trying to start a " I'll show you mine if you show me yours" session in the dorm, and maybe a group circle jerk, but a slut? Nope, not our Seamus. Jeff From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Aug 31 11:00:35 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:00:35 -0000 Subject: Hogwarts Dorms ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79325 On 30 Aug 2003 at 16:13, jeffl1965 wrote: > Does anybody think that they change dorms every year, or do they > keep the same one all the time? In Harry's year it's just 5 boys. We > don't really know the size of their dorm, or which floors house the > other years, sexes or washrooms, bath areas. Is their dorm the one > vacated by last year's graduating class? Is the dorm fairly large so > that they can house 20 or more students, or do they have different > sizes, or do they make you move up the tower with each school year? > Comments? OK - it seems they keep the same dormitory. The clearest info on this is in Chamber of Secrets: "They managed to get to the other side of the common room, still having their backs slapped, and gained the peace of the staircase. They hurried up it, right to the top, and at last reached the door of their old dormitory, which now had a sign on it saying SECOND YEARS." It's also clear that the room only contains five beds: "They entered the familiar, circular room, with its five four-posters hung with red velvet and its high, narrow windows. Their trunks had been brought up for them and stood at the ends of their beds." They seem to be on the top floor. We don't really have any certain information on whether there are different sized dormitories, etc, nor if the girls have the same facilities etc. I assume that there are seven male dormitories, and seven female ones for Gryffindor each occupying one floor of two sub towers attached to the main Gryffindor common room/tower. But that's assumption. I've placed bathrooms, etc, for my mapping purposes but that's mostly just guessing. Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 31 11:09:58 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:09:58 +0100 Subject: Prophets without Honour Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79326 ? ?? Post ? ? Chat ? ? Files ? ? Photos ? ? Links ? ? Database ? ? Polls ? ? Members ? ? Calendar ? ? ? ? Promote ? ? ? ? ?=?Owner ? ? ?=?Moderator ? ? ?=?Online ? ?Messages Messages Help Reply |Forward |View?Source |Unwrap?Lines ? ?Message 79301 of 79323 ?|? Previous |Next ?[ Up Thread ] Message Index ? ?Msg # From: ?"jwcpgh" < jwcpgh at y... > Date: ? Sun?Aug?31,?2003? 1:44 am Subject: ? Re: Prophets without honour ADVERTISEMENT --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com , B Arrowsmith wrote: > Dumbledore seriously considered dropping divination classes as being a > waste of time. > Hermione thinks it's rubbish. > Firenze warns against relying on it. > Trelawney inspires no confidence as a teacher. > > So why are we so obsessed, spending hours beating our heads against > *that* prophecy? > > Throughout the series divination in any form is presented as a > 'pretend' subject. 'Pretend' it means something, 'pretend' to do the > set homework, 'pretend' that even if real seers exist, it can be taught > to non-seers. Yet we are expected to take two supposed prophecies as > serious predictions, capable of definitive interpretation. Really? Laura: Your post makes a lot of sense to me, but my question is this: if in fact the prophecy is a red herring, why did JKR spend so much time on it? It's important in that it motivates LV, but if DD really thinks it's no big deal, why didn't he tell the Order and/or Harry? That would have stopped Harry's interest in the corridor dreams for sure- and our beloved Sirius would still be alive. Me now: Are you a film buff? Remember the concept of the McGuffin? Much loved by masters such as Hitchcock. A device which keeps everyone busy, but is of no significance otherwise. The classic is probably The Maltese Falcon. I'm not saying that this is the case, but after weeks of getting nowhere I'm ready to start grasping at straws. I can't quite see how it would have stopped Harry's interest in the corridor dreams. While they were progressing Harry did not know what they signified, just that it was something compulsive. Never having been there, he couldn't be expected to recognise the Dept. of Mysteries until too late. I doubt warnings from DD would have made any difference; Harry is not naturally compliant. I see DD as the Ultimate Pragmatist; not evil but ready to grit his teeth and do the necessary, even if it requires casualties on the side of good. Why didn't he confide in the others? Well, when you're the puppetmaster, it doesn't do to let the puppets know how they are being manipulated. What we don't know is whether DD is also being manipulated by JKR. Is the prophecy valid? Can we trust Trelawney to turn out a real, complete, accurate prophesy? I suspect not. That's the way the canon leans in its treatment of Divination. But taking that line complicates things enormously. Who can be trusted? Either, (if so, which?) both, or neither? Does it matter in the scheme of things or will it turn out to be the McGuffin? We'll probably find out sooner or later, but meanwhile it's teeth-gnashing time. Kneasy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From udderpd at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 31 10:18:33 2003 From: udderpd at yahoo.co.uk (=?iso-8859-1?q?udder=5Fpen=5Fdragon?=) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:18:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Dorms ? (RoomSizes) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20030831101833.57330.qmail@web10001.mail.yahoo.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79327 jeff wrote> Does anybody think that they change dorms every year, or do they keep the same one all the time? In Harry's year it's just 5 boys. We don't really know the size of their dorm, or which floors house the other years, sexes or washrooms, bath areas. Is their dorm the one vacated by last year's graduating class? Is the dorm fairly large so that they can house 20 or more students, or do they have different sizes, or do they make you move up the tower with each school year? U_Pen_Dragon My take on this is that the new first years move into the vacated seventh year dorm'. As for the size of the dorm's, this is a magic castle ergo they become whatever size they need to be. I also think that this "magic" applies to the classrooms, Great Hall,etc. Comments U_P_D Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT ________HPFGU______Hexquarters______Announcement_______________ Before posting to any list, you MUST read the group's Admin File! http://www.hpfgu.org.uk/admin Please use accurate subject headings and snip unnecessary material from posts to which you're replying! Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. --------------------------------- Want to chat instantly with your online friends??Get the FREE Yahoo!Messenger [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 31 08:00:13 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 08:00:13 -0000 Subject: ADMIN: Re-moderation and how to avoid it Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79328 Greetings from Hexquarters! As you may have noticed, the list volume has been somewhat overwhelming of late. This has caused your hard-working list elves to become ? well, overwhelmed. List rules have therefore been less strictly enforced than we would like. However, as list volume decreases, and elf numbers increase, those of you who tend to `forget' list rules will find that an increasing number of owls are winging your way. So if you don't want to feel like Vernon Dursley, plagued by a peck of owls, we suggest that you hightail it over to the distinctly slimmed down HB file at http://hpfgu.org.uk/hbfile.html There you can read our posting advice, if you don't have already have a copy. Be warned ? those who keep breaking the same list rules even *after* three warnings may find themselves doing remedial moderated status with our list elves. Unfortunately, this won't be as exciting or dramatic as Harry's experience of `remedial potions' with Snape. Moderated status is more akin to History of Magic with Professor Binns. Incredibly boring for all concerned, and everybody's praying for it to end. ;-) So skate over to the Hbfile today! You know it makes sense! O.W.L. T.R.E.A.T.S Our Wizarding Leaders: The Really Expanding Admin Team From Zarleycat at aol.com Sun Aug 31 11:38:33 2003 From: Zarleycat at aol.com (kiricat2001) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 11:38:33 -0000 Subject: Sirius' wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79329 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "tuck668" wrote: > While rereading OOP, I had this sudden revelation about Sirius. (I > apologize profusely if this has been discussed. I've tried searching > but the search engine is a bit iffy. If it has been discussed, I > would be incredibly grateful if someone could point me toward those > posts.) > > When a wizard goes to Azkaban, especially for a life sentence, I > assumed that their wand was broken, or at least confiscated in some > way. Yet, in OOP, Sirius has a wand and it is never mentioned how he > got it. > > This could just be a minor detail that isn't worth explaining, but > it has been bugging me for a few days. It seems unlikely to me that > someone else bought him a wand, as it is, after all, the wand that > chooses the wizard. > > Any comments? > > -Anna It's a little detail that bugged me, too. Evidently however Sirius got a wand is irrelevant to the story. I've read the other two responses, so I won't repeat them. Now, if SIrius' wand was confiscated by the Ministry at the time of his imprisonment, how would he get it back? Perhaps an OoP member like Kingsley could have wandered off to the evidence room, or where ever they keep prisoners' personal possessions, and rummaged through the boxes until he found Sirius' stuff. He gets the wand and brings it to 12 Grimmauld Place. On the other hand, we don't know that it's Sirius' wand from his pre- Azkaban days. It's a wand, it's in his possession, therefore it's his. Perhaps there's a black market on Knockturn Alley where, for a price, one can purchase wands that have been lost or stolen. Of course, the match between wizard and wand would not necessarily be a good one, but, on the other hand, if the wand was for someone who was supposed to stay locked up in a house, then maybe the match would not have been as important. And, if that's the case, Sirius wouldn't have even had to be the one to skulk into Knockturn Alley to buy it. Mundungus could have been the buyer. He certainly seems to get involved in some rather shady business transactions. Just some random thoughts... Marianne From drednort at alphalink.com.au Sun Aug 31 09:55:50 2003 From: drednort at alphalink.com.au (Shaun Hately) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:55:50 +1000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Hogwarts Dorms ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <3F5252C6.1601.1F1CF95@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 79330 On 30 Aug 2003 at 16:13, jeffl1965 wrote: > Does anybody think that they change dorms every year, or do they > keep the same one all the time? In Harry's year it's just 5 boys. We > don't really know the size of their dorm, or which floors house the > other years, sexes or washrooms, bath areas. Is their dorm the one > vacated by last year's graduating class? Is the dorm fairly large so > that they can house 20 or more students, or do they have different > sizes, or do they make you move up the tower with each school year? > Comments? OK - it seems they keep the same dormitory. The clearest info on this is in Chamber of Secrets: "They managed to get to the other side of the common room, still having their backs slapped, and gained the peace of the staircase. They hurried up it, right to the top, and at last reached the door of their old dormitory, which now had a sign on it saying SECOND YEARS." It's also clear that the room only contains five beds: "They entered the familiar, circular room, with its five four-posters hung with red velvet and its high, narrow windows. Their trunks had been brought up for them and stood at the ends of their beds." They seem to be on the top floor. We don't really have any certain information on whether there are different sized dormitories, etc, nor if the girls have the same facilities etc. I assume that there are seven male dormitories, and seven female ones for Gryffindor each occupying one floor of two sub towers attached to the main Gryffindor common room/tower. But that's assumption. I've placed bathrooms, etc, for my mapping purposes but that's mostly just guessing. Yours Without Wax, Dreadnought Shaun Hately | www.alphalink.com.au/~drednort/thelab.html (ISTJ) | drednort at alphalink.com.au | ICQ: 6898200 "You know the very powerful and the very stupid have one thing in common. They don't alter their views to fit the facts. They alter the facts to fit the views. Which can be uncomfortable if you happen to be one of the facts that need altering." The Doctor - Doctor Who: The Face of Evil Where am I: Frankston, Victoria, Australia From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Fri Aug 29 23:28:34 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 23:28:34 -0000 Subject: Drooble's, Neville's Gran, St. Mungo's In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79331 Steve wrote: > > > I think the top two theories right now are that a.) they will > > somehow detect a poison or drug on the wrappers or b.) there is > > a secret message written on the wrappers. Mlle Bienvenu: > Perhaps Neville's forgetfulness and clumsiness is caused by the > handling of the tainted wrappers. Perhaps the poison (assuming > there is one) can pass through the skin to some extent, thus > impairing Nevilles faculties somewhat, but not to the extent of > his parents, who are actually eating the gum. Mlle, RSFJenny is putting together the "craft" as we speak, so jump aboard. I definitely think Neville's being affected too, but I also think Healer Strout was affected. I don't think it's poison on the wrappers or gum because of that. Also someone (sorry, don't recall who) pointed out that there are no bluebell colored bubbles floating around ward 49, and since drooble's makes those bubbles and they last for days, we can assume that the gum may not be being chewed. UNLESS... Alice isn't chewing it because she's on to it being tainted?... hg From journalisto at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 02:22:46 2003 From: journalisto at hotmail.com (The Journalist) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 19:22:46 -0700 Subject: Society for the Practice of Elvish Warfare Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79332 Oh, those little house-elves. With their big floppy ears, and bulging eyes... Cute little things aren't they? BUT ARE THEY? Dobby and the other Hogwarts elves seem to pretty well-behaved creatures. They live happily in that Scottish castle, using their "powerful brand of magic" for cleaning and food preparation. They've been treated badly, especially during Voldemort's peak of power, so they should be feeling quite pleased to work under such a nice, forward-thinking man like Dumbledore. HOWEVER, isn't it rather probable that we will see the elves use their power for... Evil? They can apparate, they can blow grown wizards off their feet, etc. If elves are required by their honor to do as their masters desire, I suppose it would just be a matter of time before Voldemort gets a whole sack-full and orders them to pop on down to Hogsmeade with him and open fire on Hoggy-Warty-Hogwarts, eh? -Dan, who thinks the Quibbler ROCKS... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 14:24:39 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:24:39 -0000 Subject: Prophets without Honour In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79333 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith wrote: > So why are we so obsessed, spending hours beating our heads against > > *that* prophecy? > > > > Throughout the series divination in any form is presented as a > > 'pretend' subject. 'Pretend' it means something, 'pretend' to do > the > > set homework, 'pretend' that even if real seers exist, it can be > taught > > to non-seers. Yet we are expected to take two supposed prophecies > as > > serious predictions, capable of definitive interpretation. Really? > > > > Laura: > if in > fact the prophecy is a red herring, why did JKR spend so much time on > it? > > Kneasy again: > Are you a film buff? Remember the concept of the McGuffin? > Much loved by masters such as Hitchcock. A device which keeps everyone > busy, but is of no significance otherwise. The classic is probably The > Maltese Falcon. I'm not saying that this is the case, but after weeks > of getting nowhere I'm ready to start grasping at straws. > > I can't quite see how it would have stopped Harry's interest in the > corridor dreams. While they were progressing Harry did not know what > they signified, just that it was something compulsive. Never having > been there, he couldn't be expected to recognise the Dept. of > Mysteries until too late. I doubt warnings from DD would have made any > difference; Harry is not naturally compliant. > > I see DD as the Ultimate Pragmatist; not evil but ready to grit his > teeth and do the necessary, even if it requires casualties on the side > of good. Why didn't he confide in the others? Well, when you're the > puppetmaster, it doesn't do to let the puppets know how they are being > manipulated. > > What we don't know is whether DD is also being manipulated by JKR. Is > the prophecy valid? Can we trust Trelawney to turn out a real, > complete, accurate prophesy? I suspect not. That's the way the canon > leans in its treatment of Divination. But taking that line complicates > things enormously. Who can be trusted? Either, (if so, which?) both, > or neither? Does it matter in the scheme of things or will it turn out > to be the McGuffin? We'll probably find out sooner or later, but > meanwhile it's teeth-gnashing time. > > Kneasy > Laura again: Well, I suppose the prophecy could be a Mcguffin, except that usually those are used to kick-start a story (if I recall my film classes correctly). That is, it's a structural device used to get the plot started. In this case, it's a bit late in the day to think of the prophecy as getting the story rolling-it's already accelerating at a dangerous rate. The thing that puzzles me about this prophecy plotline is that DD has deduced everything that LV is likely to do well in advance of his actual actions. DD knows that LV wants the prophecy. He knows that LV will discover that only he or Harry can get it. He knows that LV will soon figure out that he can manipulate Harry's mind. But he also knows that the prophecy isn't reliable. And he knows that whether or not LV learns the rest of it, his actions will be the same- to try to eliminate Harry. Yet he lets the whole catastrophe play out. It would have been very easy to tell Harry that the Order was aware of what LV was doing and was letting him do it because it was really a waste of LV's time and effort and thus would keep him and his little friends harmlessly busy. Harry would have understood that his dreams and visions meant that the Order's strategy was working, and could have dismissed them more easily. But instead, DD acts as though this prophecy is truly significant (i.e., in the discussion he has with Harry at the end of OoP). That's what I don't understand. Usually everyone in the story is taken in by a Mcguffin. Here, DD seems to be perfectly aware that it's a fraud-but he lets everyone else think differently. I don't agree completely that DD is ultimately a pragmatist. If that were the case, he would have clued Harry in a long time ago, without worrying overmuch about the effects on Harry. Instead, he confesses that he chose to protect Harry against his better judgement. (And of course, the protection completely backfires, killing Sirius and further traumatizing Harry.) I can't understand it. It all could have been avoided so easily... From pegruppel at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 13:41:26 2003 From: pegruppel at yahoo.com (Peggy) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:41:26 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79334 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" wrote: Snip > The particular ward that Neville's parents are on may somehow be > controlled by either LV or Fudge. If we look at the people that we > know of who are in that ward (which, we find out from the nurse that > it is pretty high security, although deadly plants seem to make their > way in fairly easily)we see that what they all have in common is that > they all have or may have some kind of dangerous information. > Lockhart, of course, is the only adult who has seen the Chamber of > Secrets opened. Neville's parents: unknown, but were Order members so > they may have gotten some interesting info before they were "addled". > The last (what's the name?? Bode?), who was killed by his gift of > Devil's Snare, was able to get to the Dept. of Mysteries and make his > way all the way through to the prophecy. > Anyway, I think Nevilles' mother may be giving him some sort of clue > about the ward itself with the wrappers; that is, that the doctors (or > someone) are purposely keeping them in their foggy state. > > So, then, the wrappers. Maybe the wrappers are not all bubblegum > wrappers. Perhaps she has given him other types of candy wrappers as > well. In that case, they are a clue to "candy". That is, maybe she's > saying that "fudge" is responsible (is this too much of a stretch?). > Or, Droobles does start with the letters Dr., so maybe it's a clue to > the doctor's name, which we'll see in Book 6. Is this lame? > > Now me: I read this *after* I'd sent a message to the SILK GOWNS group about "Fudge" candy and "gum" candy. So I don't think it's a stretch! If more than one person can come to the same conclusion, it's a pretty good bet that there's something that Alice is trying to communicate, and it's not just about the gum or the wrappers themselves. I still insist there's something about the gum itself-- I'm being stubborn. There is one other person on the ward who seems to be suffering from an effect that has nothing to do with LV or Fudge, and that's Agnes (she barks). It's possible that Malfoy or Fudge himself are sending goodies to the Longbottoms (heck, who'd ever suspect the MOM or one of the major donors to the hospital of deliberately poisoning a patient? Peg From sues0101 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 14:27:33 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:27:33 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Sexual preference- Sue Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79335 > Jeff: > > You're welcome, Sue. While I can admit that Harry has had no >heroes or even friends prior to Hogwarts, it does appear that he has >a bit of a crush on Bill. Does it mean he, Harry, is gay? Maybe, >maybe not. Let's not forget that he and Ron are almost joined at the >waist as well. While this doesn't really support that Harry's gay, at >least bi, because when they get that close, sexual experimentation >*does* happen at times. I mean, Ron has 5 older brothers, if he >hasn't been exposed to something, at least wanking, I'd be very >shocked. And who would teach Harry about that? :) > BTW, what about Dean and Seamus? I see lots of fanficces that has >them as a pair, and Seamus is always a slut. Even in the het ficcies, >Seamus is usually gay, and a slut. Why is that? What supports that >theory? I guess I can see him trying to start a " I'll show you mine >if you show me yours" session in the dorm, and maybe a group circle >jerk, but a slut? Nope, not our Seamus. > > > > Jeff > > Sue: Yes, Harry and Ron may be joined at the waist, but for the life of me I cannot remember him describing Ron's appearance in glowing terms, so - just friends I think. If I think about it rationally, I can't honestly say that I think Harry will be gay or even bi. I just don't think JK will do that to poor Harry. He has enough problems in his life without having to deal with the bigotry of any anti - gay wizards. Not to mention that if the Daily Prophet got hold of the news that the Boy Who Lived was gay, there would probably be a run on new Death Eaters waiting to join LV! I too have read lots of fics with both Dean and Seamus being gay, and don't get it. There doesn't seem to be any supporting canon to even suggest this, although because we see the WW from Harry's POV, we probably wouldn't as Harry is so clueless (lovable but clueless). Seamus and Dean seem always to be together, maybe just paired off as best friends because there is only five boys in their year level, but I can imagine Seamus initating that little jerk off session as you said *impish grin*. He seems exactly the cheeky type that would do that. Ha - 'show me yours and I'll show you mine - Weasley might be a 'howler''. Oh, God I crack myself up. Better go now and behave myself. This is my very first non-moderated post. I might get shunted back to moderated for this if I'm not careful. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. 30MB of storage on ninemsn Groups - great for sharing photos and documents. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From jamesredmont at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 14:39:06 2003 From: jamesredmont at hotmail.com (James Redmont) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:39:06 -0000 Subject: Aiming Wand at Bellatrix Lestrange: CRUCIO! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79336 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" wrote: Wouldn't [Bellatrix} have some, ah, resistance (like Harry > does to Imperio!)? > > If Harry does believe her, and if he is bothered by his inability to > deal with her effectively, will he work very hard on learning how to > hate effectively enough to hurt her/DE's in general next time? While > the power Harry has that is beyond the Dark Lord's ken is very likely > *love*... > > Just some thoughts. > > "msbeadsley" Me: Very interesting, even probable. However, I believe he'll abandon the hate thing (I hope, I'm sick of pissed-off!Harry...how terrible would hate!Harry be?) and come up with a new way to fight them. The fact that he used Crucio! must be important. It's not something she should lightly throw around, especially since she stressed that you get a lifetime sentence in Azkaban for trying it. Was it to show us that he's not like the deatheaters? or is it to show us he reached his breaking point? James Redmont From florentinemaier at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 14:45:36 2003 From: florentinemaier at hotmail.com (Florentine Maier) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:45:36 -0000 Subject: The smoke serpent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79337 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Geoff Bannister" wrote: > I don't think this has been raised in a thread previously but I am > puzzled as to its importance having just reached it on my fifth > reading. Anyone got a view? > > OOTP Chapter 22 pp.415-6 UK Bloomsbury edition. > > "Dumbledore now swooped down on one of the fragile silver instruments > whose function Harry had never known,carried it over to his desk, sat > down facing them again and tapped it gently with the tip of his wand. > The instrument tinkled into life at once with rhythmic clinking > noises. Tiny puffs of pale green smoke issued from the miniscule > silver tube at the top. Dumbledore watched the smoke closely, his > brow furrowed. After a few seconds, the tiny puffs became a steady > stream of smoke that thickened and coiled in the air... a serpent's > head grew out of the end of it, opening its mouth wide. Harry > wondered whether the instrument was confirming his story: he looked > eagerly at Dumbledore for a sign that he was right, but Dumbledore > did not look up. > > "Naturally, naturally", murmured Dumbledore, apparently to himself, > still observing the stream of smoke without the slightest sign of > surprise. "But in essence divided?" > > Harry could make neither head nor tail of this question. The smoke > serpent, however, split instantly into two snakes, both coiling and > undulating in the dark air. With a look of grim satisfaction, > Dumbledore gave the instrument another gentle tap with his wand: the > clinking noise slowed and died and the smoke serpents grew faint, > became a formless haze and vanished." > > OK, so what's all this about? Something to do with Harry > being "inside" the snake yet separate from it? Answers on a postcard > please! > > Geoff My theory is that the two snakeheads are refering to Tom Riddle and Lord Voldemort. They are "in essence divided". Dumbledore wants to bring out the human side (=Tom Riddle) in Lord Voldemort, that's why he keeps on calling him "Tom" at the duel in the entry hall of the MoM. Florentine From HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com Sun Aug 31 15:02:21 2003 From: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com (HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com) Date: 31 Aug 2003 15:02:21 -0000 Subject: Reminder - Weekly Chat Message-ID: <1062342141.83.44523.m7@yahoogroups.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79338 We would like to remind you of this upcoming event. Weekly Chat Date: Sunday, August 31, 2003 Time: 11:00AM - 7:00PM CDT (GMT-05:00) Hi everyone! Don't forget, chat happens today, 11 am Pacific, 2 pm Eastern, 7 pm UK time. *Chat times are not changing for Daylight Saving/Summer Time.* Chat generally goes on for about 5 hours, but can last as long as people want it to last. Go into any Yahoo chat room and type /join HP:1 For further info, see the Humongous BigFile, section 3.3. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/files/Admin%20Files/hbfile.html#33 Hope to see you there! From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 07:42:41 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 23:42:41 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Sirius' wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030830233807.00afeab8@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 79339 At 03:39 AM 8/31/2003 +0000, tuck668 wrote: >When a wizard goes to Azkaban, especially for a life sentence, I >assumed that their wand was broken, or at least confiscated in some >way. Yet, in OOP, Sirius has a wand and it is never mentioned how he >got it. I always assumed he used the same method he used to buy the firebolt. Send Crockshanks with a note....or possibly have DD get it for him. He already knows what core, length, and wood type he needs..so he could order it from Olivander without a problem....except that Olivander would probably say something like "Yew wood, 9 inches, unicorn hair core, great for transfiguration...I sold one just like it to that Sirius Black fellow...if I had known he'd go and kill all those muggles...I wouldn't have sold it to him." From sues0101 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 14:46:39 2003 From: sues0101 at hotmail.com (Sue Porter) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:46:39 +0000 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Real reason for LV wanting the Prophesy? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79340 Laura: >The thing that puzzles me about this prophecy plotline is that DD has >deduced everything that LV is likely to do well in advance of his >actual actions. DD knows that LV wants the prophecy. He knows that >LV will discover that only he or Harry can get it. He knows that LV >will soon figure out that he can manipulate Harry's mind. But he >also knows that the prophecy isn't reliable. >But instead, DD acts as though this prophecy is truly significant >(i.e., in the discussion he has with Harry at the end of OoP). >That's what I don't understand. Usually everyone in the story is >taken in by a Mcguffin. Here, DD seems to be perfectly aware that >it's a fraud-but he lets everyone else think differently. > > Sue: I just had a thought on the prophesy, shoot me down if you like, but what if LV didnt actually want the prophesy? What if he wanted to know who had made the prophesy? I'm thinking that he probably knew or guessed what the prophesy said, despite his spy being kicked out of the pub before the end. Maybe the spy was kicked out before he found out who it was that made the prophesy. There has been so much discussion of the interpretation of the prophesy, and so many theories about other ways in which LV could just have got into the MOM and got the prophesy himself or whatever, but we don't know WHY he wanted it. And no one has come up with anything yet that has convinced me that he did indeed want the prophesy. The only thing that has come close is that he was hoping to lure Harry into a trap. Well, he could have done that in so many different ways. Why the prophesy? Now, as to why LV would want the prophesy maker, it's possible that he wants a seer in his team of DE's to guide him via further prophesies. To give him some idea of how to kill Harry, when we all know that the good old favorite of the Mouldy Oldie, the AK doesn't work on Harry. I'm sorry if this doesn't sound too well thought out yet, but its 12.45am and I'm tired. (boo hoo). I just had to post this thought because I would love to add Trelawney to LV's long list of mistakes where Harry is concerned. She may have made one or two prophesys (Lord how I hate typing that word - have to stop and remember how to spell it every time!), but generally she is a very unsympathetic person. Sue _________________________________________________________________ ninemsn Extra Storage is now available. No account expiration - no need to worry about losing your Hotmail account. Click here http://join.msn.com/ From stevejjen at earthlink.net Sun Aug 31 16:10:08 2003 From: stevejjen at earthlink.net (Jen Reese) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:10:08 -0000 Subject: Aiming Wand at Bellatrix Lestrange: CRUCIO! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79341 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" wrote: > The fact that he used Crucio! must be important. It's not something > she should lightly throw around, especially since she stressed that > you get a lifetime sentence in Azkaban for trying it. Was it to > show us that he's not like the deatheaters? or is it to show us he > reached his breaking point? Breaking point gets my vote. Also to give the reader more information about what it takes to make the Crucio curse work. Before Harry tried to Crucio Bellatrix, I just assumed any clever wizard could eventually learn how to use that curse, but now we know it has to have a very intense feeling behind it of wanting to cause pain. That makes me wonder, could DD really have killed Voldemort at the MOM? The AK must work like Crucio, requiring a force of wanting the person dead. Dumbledore tells LV, "merely taking your life would not satisfy me, I admit--", so the feeling wouldn't be behind an AK. Jen Reese From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sun Aug 31 16:47:03 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:47:03 -0400 Subject: Things that will come into play later Message-ID: <000a01c36fdf$817403c0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 79342 Some things from OOP I think will come into play later. 1. Hermione's otter patronus and/or Cho's swan patronus. Were they the only ones to succeed with that spell? If not, why show us only theirs? Was it to show us that Cho is a powerful witch or was it just a personality match? (Swans are beautiful from afar, but not very friendly and even a little dangerous up close) Was Hermione's otter a clue like Sirius's code name "snuffles" (snuffed out)? Add a P to otter, and what do you get? Can we assume Ron didn't make a patronus? 2. The way the stairs to the girls dorm turned into a slide. I think it's a little late in the books to mention something like this unless it will come into play later. Harry and Ron never tried to visit Hermione before, not in 5 years? They never heard about it from anybody else? You'd think someone would have mentioned it before! If that same scene had been in SS or CoS I wouldn't think anything of it. Book 5 though? 3. Harry throwing the unforgivable curse. Was it simply a way for JKR to show us how horrible Harry was feeling inside, that he would resort to that? Was it to teach Harry ,or us, how it's used and why Harry wasn't successful with it? Is it going to eat at Harry that he lost control like that? The fact that Harry did it was a very big deal, but I'm not sure if the important part was that he tried it or that he failed at it. 4. Why was Ron's role somewhat weakened in this book and Hermione's elevated? I'm not talking about shipping here. Yes, Ron was off doing his own stuff, which has to be important later. Why couldn't he have succeeded on his own, and still contributed more with Harry and everyone else. He was at the MoM, but he was put with Ginny and Luna, not Harry and Hermione. Plus, JKR had him acting all stupid there. He also kept himself distant from Harry by refusing to offer his opinion several times, even when Harry was about to do something dangerous. Hermione and Harry were very close in this book. Why did JKR need to strengthen their friendship even more? It makes me worry for Hermione in the next book! Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From mom31 at rochester.rr.com Sun Aug 31 11:14:10 2003 From: mom31 at rochester.rr.com (mom31) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:14:10 -0400 Subject: Things that will come into play later. Message-ID: <002301c36fb1$00a2a720$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> No: HPFGUIDX 79343 Some things from OOP I think will come into play later. 1. Hermione's otter patronus and/or Cho's swan patronus. Were they the only ones to succeed with that spell? If not, why show us only theirs? Was it to show us that Cho is a powerful witch or was it just a personality match? (Swans are beautiful from afar, but not very friendly and even a little dangerous up close) Was Hermione's otter a clue like Sirius's code name "snuffles" (snuffed out)? Add a P to otter, and what do you get? Can we assume Ron didn't make a patronus? 2. The way the stairs to the girls dorm turned into a slide. I think it's a little late in the books to mention something like this unless it will come into play later. Harry and Ron never tried to visit Hermione before, not in 5 years? They never heard about it from anybody else? You'd think someone would have mentioned it before! If that same scene had been in SS or CoS I wouldn't think anything of it. Book 5 though? 3. Harry throwing the unforgivable curse. Was it simply a way for JKR to show us how horrible Harry was feeling inside, that he would resort to that? Was it to teach Harry ,or us, how it's used and why Harry wasn't successful with it? Is it going to eat at Harry that he lost control like that? The fact that Harry did it was a very big deal, but I'm not sure if the important part was that he tried it or that he failed at it. 4. Why was Ron's role somewhat weakened in this book and Hermione's elevated? I'm not talking about shipping here. Yes, Ron was off doing his own stuff, which has to be important later. Why couldn't he have succeeded on his own, and still contributed more with Harry and everyone else. He was at the MoM, but he was put with Ginny and Luna, not Harry and Hermione. Plus, JKR had him acting all stupid there. He also kept himself distant from Harry by refusing to offer his opinion several times, even when Harry was about to do something dangerous. Hermione and Harry were very close in this book. Why did JKR need to strengthen their bond even more? It makes me worry for Hermione in the next book! Joj [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From jdr0918 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 17:09:48 2003 From: jdr0918 at hotmail.com (jdr0918) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:09:48 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual Preference In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79344 <<<"jeffl1965" wrote:...If we can't discuss the idea, then why have the group? If the group is only for PC (READ: BORING) discussions, then it's no different than the other 5,000 or so fangirl-Mary Sue type groups out there...Harry could be bi, btw. He's been in a closet so long, he has no concept of what he really likes...Percy could certainly be gay, he's so uppity that he comes across as being rather nelly at times, at least imho...>>> The Sergeant Majorette says That's the spirit! Maybe the 'closet' metaphor for Harry is deliberate. The most compelling reason I see for Gay!Harry is the fact that there are no female characters as detached as he is. (Luna isn't detached. She deals quite comfortably with the world. She's just consciously odd.) Really, the only character who is a psychologically parallel match for Harry is Draco, and I don't think anybody on any forum objects to the concept of Draco being gay. My controversial opinion is that boys can be sissies and girls can be tomboys, but that actual sexuality cannot be determined until one meets one's soulmate. Then, if that person is of the same gender, then one may call oneself homosexual. By that definition, Percy is just a priss. He'd be a perfectly happy heterosexual with a wife like Aunt Petunia. Justin F-F: gay. The Lockheart thing *is* a dead giveaway. The Creevey brothers are just creepy. --JDR From naama_gat at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 14:35:30 2003 From: naama_gat at hotmail.com (naamagatus) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:35:30 -0000 Subject: Dumbledore's integrity (was Prophecy problems) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79345 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > First there was me, and I wrote: > >>> Also, remember that DD controls the version of the prophecy that > Harry hears, and all those pauses at least offer the possibility that > what he shows Harry is edited.>>> > I must confess myself a little disappointed by the willingness of > people on this thread to take Dumbledore at face value. I'm not > necessarily rooting for a revival of ESE!DD, but I did expect to warm > the cockles of at least a couple of sceptics out there. I'm not > entirely sure that Dumbledore has ever conducted himself with the > integrity you attribute to him, much less that the section of the > prophecy Harry has seen correalates to any objective truth simply > because Dumbledore *says* it does. Have to disappoint you further, I'm afraid . To assume that Dumbledore has edited the prophecy, or lied to Harry in some other way, makes for a very difficult *storytelling* problem, IMO. Dumbledore serves at least two narrative functions at the "end of the year talks" . One as himself. One as the narrator's voice. At the end of OoP, we learn a lot from Dumbledore about his own motivations, thoughts, regrets, etc. We learn from him about himself. But also he functions as the mystery-unravelling narrator. In addition, even within the story Dumbledore is the only one who knows the full content of the prophecy (we know from the second prophecy that Trellawney doesn't remember a thing after she wakes from a true trance). So, if he is lying to Harry, neither Harry nor the reader can ever realize it. (Unless, in a future book, Dumbledore says to Harry - "well, actually, I made up the whole either you or him part. Thought it would give you a bit more motivation, don't you know?" Cut to Dumbledore weeping on Harry's neck, burbling about the dangers of senile dementia.) To have Dumbledore lying to Harry and then "taking it back", is just really lame story telling. It's too easy a trick for an author to do, because then she can always take anything back, right? So, we can count on nothing. Quirrel is still alive, Harry staying alive has nothing to do with Lily's love, the prophecy never happened? I think that when a thing is told that is obviously part of the story's bone structure (if you know what I mean), we can count on JKR to not take it away it later on. In fact, I challenge you to look back at the story that we have, and see whether she has done anything like that before. I.e., established something as a fact and then demolished it later on. Naama From irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com Thu Aug 28 21:47:28 2003 From: irene_mikhlin at btopenworld.com (Irene Mikhlin) Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 22:47:28 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Let It Be Known In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3F4E7870.6010301@btopenworld.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79346 > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "severusbook4" > wrote: > >>ADD IN: >>book 7: Harry wakes up at the Dursleys, still 11 years old. >> >>Severus > If she does it, I'll burn my books, all seven of them. I'm serious. Anything would be better than that. To have the entire Hogwarts population killed in the last battle would be better than that. Irene From jwcpgh at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 13:40:20 2003 From: jwcpgh at yahoo.com (jwcpgh) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 13:40:20 -0000 Subject: Sirius' wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79347 > > When a wizard goes to Azkaban, especially for a life sentence, I > > assumed that their wand was broken, or at least confiscated in some > > way. Yet, in OOP, Sirius has a wand and it is never mentioned how > he > > got it. > > > > -Anna > > > Now, if SIrius' wand was confiscated by the Ministry at the time of > his imprisonment, how would he get it back? Perhaps an OoP member > like Kingsley could have wandered off to the evidence room, or whereever they keep prisoners' personal possessions, and rummaged through the boxes until he found Sirius' stuff. He gets the wand and brings it to 12 Grimmauld Place. > > On the other hand, we don't know that it's Sirius' wand from his pre-Azkaban days. It's a wand, it's in his possession, therefore it's his. Perhaps there's a black market on Knockturn Alley where, for a price, one can purchase wands that have been lost or stolen. Of course, the match between wizard and wand would not necessarily be a good one, but, on the other hand, if the wand was for someone who was supposed to stay locked up in a house, then maybe the match would not have been as important. And, if that's the case, Sirius wouldn't > have even had to be the one to skulk into Knockturn Alley to buy it. Mundungus could have been the buyer. He certainly seems to get > involved in some rather shady business transactions. > > Just some random thoughts... > > Marianne Laura: So if the wand Sirius used in the MoM battle wasn't the one he got from Ollivander's back when he started school, then it wouldn't have been the proper fit. And that might explain why Bellatrix was able to hurt him and why he didn't put her out of action during the battle- he didn't have the full power of his own wand at his command. Since, obviously, Sirius didn't have a wand in Azkaban, should we assume that he didn't have one during GoF when he was on the run? It seems unlikely that he would feel safe without one. In the Shrieking Shack scene he picked up Snape's wand, as I recall. Did Snape ever get it back? It would be kind of funny if Sirius used Snape's wand for the better part of 2 years. From kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk Sun Aug 31 16:58:11 2003 From: kirst_inn at yahoo.co.uk (Kirstini) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:58:11 -0000 Subject: Real reason for LV wanting the Prophecy? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79348 Sue: >> I just had a thought on the prophesy, shoot me down if you like, but what if LV didnt actually want the prophesy? What if he wanted to know who had made the prophesy?>> Fraid I'm going to have to shoot you down, Sue. He could have found out who made the prophecy at any time, even just by using Imperio'd! Bode. The prophecy has initials written on the outside, which I think (no handy canon) Hermione points out to Harry - her attention attracted because Harry's initials are on it. So are ABPWD and SPT. Now, ABPWD (apologies if that's in the wrong order)is fairly easy to work out, especially for The Evil Formerly Known As Riddle, and it wouldn't take a huge leap of imagination to work out who SPT was, seeing as aforementioned ABWPD (that looks better) would obviously be keeping her close to prevent just such an event happening. I imagine that first point of call would be the Hogwarts staff register 1979-95. Kirstini From manawydan at ntlworld.com Sun Aug 31 17:46:11 2003 From: manawydan at ntlworld.com (manawydan) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:46:11 +0100 Subject: [HPforGrownups] significant dates References: <1062329927.5043.87257.m13@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <002c01c36fe7$c455ed40$db7d0550@f3b7j4> No: HPFGUIDX 79349 Kneasy wrote: >What calendar does the WW use? They celebrate the major festivals >but I can't recall a mention of New Year, strange given the presence >of McGonagall. Maybe it follows the Celtic calendar, whose New Year was Samhain/Hallowe'en. Hallowe'en is certainly celebrated at the school in a big way Cheers Ffred From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 07:32:20 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:32:20 -0000 Subject: Puzzles: Wormtail's finger and Shrieking Shack tunnel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79350 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > I have just been re-reading PoA and two logistics problems occurred > to me: > > (1) How did Wormtail simultaneously cut off his finger and blow a > hole in the ground whilst he was holding his wand with both hands > behind his back ?? ... Sirius says 'I cornered him', > suggesting to me that Peter did not come there willingly to meet > Sirius, .... > bboy_mn: Well, the best we can do, if we assume that the book is true, is combine gross speculation with what we think might be likely. Given that, I will take a stab at it. "... he was holding his wand with both hands behing his back ?? ..." Oh really...? How do you know he was holding his wand with BOTH hands? I can picture several ways in which he could have cut off his finger and blasted the street. As a simple test, take a pen or a pencil and hold it in one hand behind your back with the point pointing down at the floor. ...there, that wasn't so hard, was it? Now put your other hand behind your back and put a pen mark at the base of you index finger. ...again, not so hard, was it? He could have cut his finger off behind his back and let the severed finger fall to the ground, then pointed his wand a few feet to the side and blasted the hole in the street. When the blast went off, he instantly transformed. Being a rat that was very small and close to the ground, the bulk of the blast and debris would have gone well over his head. In the distraction, he scurried across that short stretch of ground, into the crater, and down into the sewer. ...Bada-bing bada-boom. As far as who 'cornered' who, the expression 'cornered him' doesn't mean literally in a corner. It is a general expression that means you have confronted a person in such a way that they are unable to avoid the confrontation. You could 'corner' someone in the middle of a large open field without a literal corner in sight. And, you are right, Peter wasn't willingly there for the purpose of meeting Sirius. Sirius caught up to Peter, as Peter moved through the muggle world thereby hoping to avoid detection by wizards. It's possible that Peter was in an area where he had friends, or perhaps it was several blocks from where his mother's or uncle's wizard's house was hidden in London. There are lots of possible speculations about how Sirius could have found Peter in a big city like London. Either way, the way I read it is that Peter was moving through muggle London to avoid detection by wizards, and Sirius was still able to track him down and confront him on a muggle street. > (2) The tunnel from the Whomping willow to the Shrieking Shack is > initially described as so low and narrow that Harry and Hermione had > to crouch double to get along it. Then, as Sirius and Remus talk > about their schoolboy exploits, they explain that Sirius and James > transformed as a bear-size dog and a stag with antlers, but were > still able to follow Remus down the tunnel. Later, four adults, some > tied together, manage to walk back along it, including Snape in a > more-or-less upright position ! Hmmmmmm > > Any theories ? > > CW bboy_mn: Well, if the mechanics of one method seem impossible, yet we accept that it is true, then logically, they used anther method. First, the book doesn't say they all transform and went into the tunnel. It says Peter/Wormtail transformed so he could press the knot and freeze the tree. Then they went into the tunnel, not they all transformed and went into the tunnel. The logical logistics would be, the rat stops the tree, and they all go into the tunnel. When they get to the Shrieking Shack end of the tunnel the rat goes through into the house first to create a distraction. Then the dog transforms and enters the room to help restrain the werewolf. Then James steps into the room and transforms into a stag. The rat and the dog are small enough to enter in animal form and control the werewolf. Prongs/James being much larger, had to enter the room as a man, and then transform. As far as getting out of the Shack for their adventures, Lupin said under the influence of his friends he was calmer and more managable. So, the rat, the werewolf, and the dog went through the tunnel first; the dog being able to control the werewolf if necessary. Once they were out of the Whomping Willow end of the tunnel, the wolf, rat, and the dog wait in the forest for James to join them as a stag. ...and the adventure begins. As far as Harry and friends getting out after the Shrieking Shack incident. You can't look at it and say, 'that couldn't happen'. You have to assume it did happen then search for a likely explaination. Harry does comment that the three people chained together were having a hard time moving through the tunnel, and that progress was slow. So that seems a reasonable explaination for that part. Harry, Sirius, and Harry didn't have any restictions, ie: weren't chained to anyone, so they could move somewhat normally in the cramped space. That only leave Snape to explain. If the space was that confined then it would seen logical that Snapes feet were dragging on the ground causing him to move forward with his body inclined at a forward leaning angle; that is, head leading and feet trailing behind. We also know from Harry's observations that Snape was frequently bumping his head. So, Snape's head was as high as the ceiling would allow, and his feet dragged behind as he was locomotored forward through the tunnel. Seems reasonable to me. Of course, that's just one man's opinion. bboy_mn From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 18:27:19 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:27:19 -0000 Subject: Prophecy problems (was Harry the Chosen) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79351 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "hickengruendler" wrote: So > Dumbledore probably supposed, that whoever listened at the dor, > didn't have any good intentions and considered at least the > possibility, that the eavesdropper was working for Voldeort. Why else > would someone spy at Dumbledore at this critical time? Later > Dumbledore's spy (probably Snape) told him, that Voldemort was after > the Potters, and this confirmed Dumbledores suspicion. > > Hickengruendler I think it is significant that more than a year passed before Voldemort took any apparent action on the prophecy. The part about the one being born at the end of July to those who had trice defied him narrowed down the possibiliies to the Longbottoms and the Potters (according to Dumbledore). Harry was 15 months old when the attack came, and his parents had only designated a secret keeper about a week before when Dumbledore warned them they were in danger. So why did Voldemort wait for more than a year? Either he didn't hear about the prophecy right away, or he was waiting for something else - but what? Ravenclaw Bookworm From jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu Sun Aug 31 19:18:43 2003 From: jfaulkne at sas.upenn.edu (Jen Faulkner) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:18:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Harry's Sexual Preference In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79352 On Sun, 31 Aug 2003, jdr0918 wrote: > Maybe the 'closet' metaphor for Harry is deliberate. Without getting into the question of authorial intent (that is, whether JKR deliberately intended to do anything in her writing), I think one can safely say that the closet metaphors in the book are not coincidental. Even without JKR's meaning to (or perhaps she did; it's quite irrelevant), the books definitely tap into our cultural fascination with the closet; that is the structuring metaphor for any type of secret. Knowledge is fetishized to the extent that it is regarded as a state of being, so that one either is knowledgeable (possesses a certain knowledge) or is not. One is 'in the dark' or not. The closet is a place of unknowns. Harry in the books must gain knowledge first for himself; as he learns more and more about Hogwarts, the wizarding world, and who he 'truly is' at the beginning of PS/SS, he moves further and further out of his cupboard (to the smallest bedroom, then out of the Dursley house, then to another world [Hogwarts] altogether). He is being barraged with letters, i.e., with knowledge, until finally knowledge is embodied in the person of Hagrid; at that point Harry becomes enlightened with self-knowledge: he is a wizard. That this transformation resonates with the metaphors of a gay person's coming out to him/herself echoes the common pattern in literature (see here Eve Kosofsky-Sedgwick's *Epistemology of the Closet*) and in popular culture (think of the scene in X2 when Bobby 'comes out' to his parents as a mutant or the huge number of fans who see Clark Kent on Smallville as gay). The writers and producers may not necessarily *intend* to be telling a gay story, but culturally we are attuned to seeing narratives of secrets as a narrative of closeting, with 'I'm gay' being the ultimate secret to be hidden in the closet. Which is not to say that the character Harry will be gay. Nevertheless, I think his experiences do resonate strongly with the story we as a culture tell about gay persons' experiences, because that is how we tell narratives about secrets and knowledge. > My controversial opinion is that boys can be sissies and girls can be > tomboys, but that actual sexuality cannot be determined until one > meets one's soulmate. Then, if that person is of the same gender, then > one may call oneself homosexual. As you call this a controversial opinion, I am sure you're already aware of the counterarguments: that personality, interests, and interactional style ("sissy boys" and "tomboy girls") are quite different from sexual orientation, that many people do not believe in "soulmates" at all, that "homosexual" is best left to a description of behavior and not of orientation, and that, of course, many of us know we are gay long before meeting anyone who might be described as a 'soulmate' anyway. > By that definition, Percy is just a priss. He'd be a perfectly happy > heterosexual with a wife like Aunt Petunia. Justin F-F: gay. The > Lockheart thing *is* a dead giveaway. The Creevey brothers are just > creepy. Are you suggesting that Lockhart is Justin's soulmate? *g* I do think, using a sort of Occam's Razor interpretation, we should read Justin as gay due to the Lockhart thing, seeing that the text did mention his reactions to Lockhart and all. Also in this thread, Sue Porter wrote: > If I think about it rationally, I can't honestly say that I think > Harry will be gay or even bi. I just don't think JK will do that to > poor Harry. He has enough problems in his life without having to deal > with the bigotry of any anti - gay wizards. Not to mention that if the > Daily Prophet got hold of the news that the Boy Who Lived was gay, > there would probably be a run on new Death Eaters waiting to join LV! Being gay isn't a curse or an affliction, so I wouldn't see JKR as particularly 'doing anything' to "poor Harry" if she were to make the character gay or bi. Gayness isn't a "problem" one has to solve; the bigotry you refer to is the problem. I don't think we've yet seen how the WW deals with people who are not straight; I think it's reasonable to make a case either for homophobia or a sort of tolerance. Personally, I think the latter rather more likely, for two reasons. The first is that the WW doesn't seem to have kept up with the Muggle world very well, socially, so I suspect that their notions of queer people are a bit antiquated. I doubt gay men or lesbians, as we understand them, are really categories recognized by most wizards; instead you'd have 'confirmed bachelors' or 'romantic friends' spending their lives together. Not that this tolerance would extend to anyone who identifies as gay or really brings sex into the picture; I can see in that case a sort of Wilde-like reaction forming. But as long as 'propriety' be maintained, I doubt there would be any type of active persecution, since persecution requires a formed and at least partially stable notion of who your Other is. The all-female Quidditch club, the Holyhead Harpies (QTtA 34f.), strikes me, anyway, as this sort of old-fashioned nod to lesbianism, before it had a name to speak (founded in 1203). Not only is the team all-female (one hardly need invoke the stereotype of lesbians and sport), but the anecdote in QTtA also hints at the Harpies' lack of interest in men: "The Harriers' Captain Rudolf Brand famously dismounted from his broom at the end of the match and proposed marriage to his opposite number, Gwendolyn Morgan, who concussed him with her Cleansweep Five" (34-35). I think reading this team as lesbian is not too far a stretch. The second reason I see the WW as likely to have a sort of tolerance about homosexuality is the absence of racism parallel to what you'd find in the Muggle world; introduced to the same growing diversity of ethnicities as the Muggle world, the WW seems not to have reacted with any particular prejudice. (The WW instead has its own unique prejudice, that against Muggles and Muggle-born wizards.) There is too the lack of the overt sexism that one might expect, given the WW's somewhat Victorian mentalities. There does not seem to be any particular ideology of separate spheres or 'the Angel in the home', despite the fairly traditional division of labor (Molly Weasley as mother and homemaker, for instance). A lack of entrenched ideological sexism bodes well for a lack of homophobia. Thus I think if we assume the WW would react to a gay Harry with violent prejudice, we are, to a great extent, acting upon our own prejudices, as the WW might not share them at all. Besides, it's obviously McGonagall, Tonks, Justin Finch-Fletchley, Lupin, Hooch, and Grubbly-Plank who are gay. *g* --Jen :) * * * * * * Jen's HP fics: http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~jfaulkne/fan/hp.html Snapeslash listmom: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snapeslash Yes, I *am* the Deictrix. From offworld_xanatos at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 07:22:51 2003 From: offworld_xanatos at yahoo.com (Xanatos) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 07:22:51 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS - Weasley connection? Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79353 This just popped into my head - who else do we know who has experience with drugged candy? Fred and George Weasley! Think about the sampler box they were selling - candy where you eat one end to get you too ill to go to class and they other end to instantly recover. Perhaps it will be they who figure out that the Longbottoms are being drugged and they who find the counter-candy cure for it! Everyone has been wondering if the twins antics will take a more serious (and helpful) turn in the coming war - perhaps this is it. ~ Xani From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 15:52:07 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:52:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's Sexual preference- Sue In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79354 Harry, gay? Sorry, but I don't buy it. He notices girls way too much. Cho, Fleur, Hermione at the ball (loved the jaw drop), Parvati, the Veelas... Plus, he acts like a normally clueless teenage boy. Actually, come to think of it, he acts like a normal male who has no clue what women think. He's feels ackward, as anyone would in their first date/relationship at 15. I thought JKR's portrayal was very true to teen dating at that age. One confesses that they like each other, they make out (did anyone else notice that Harry came back to the common room half an hour after Cho first kissed him?), think they're dating, then it's over within six months. And Harry noticed Cho when he was only 13. All my crushes at that age were on people I barely knew. Same with most of my friends at that age. (Notice the person while passing in the halls or at class, too afraid to talk to them, maybe flirt with each other, move on to the next crush.) Plus Harry is so nervous on his date with Cho. And whenever he's alone with her, he's nervous. Loved it! Who isn't nervous around someone you really like and you're not sure likes you back? And the whole Bill-is-cool thing, well Harry has to have some kind of older role model that's not middle aged. I saw it as an older sibling kind of thing. Kind of like how Hermione and Ginny seemed to feel with Tonks. They're both cool magical people in their 20s (an age teens look up to for coolness), don't wear wizarding wear, and seem a little bit punkish. Aren't teens always impressed by cool people in their 20s? I know I was! (Come one, look how popular Buffy the Vampire Slayer is! Cool main female character, good looking guys to drool over, what more could a teen girl want?) Plus, Bill was at the third task and aftermath. He came with Mrs. Weasley as a family member. And I've got to add to the list of possibly gay characters here: Colin Creevey anyone? He was still obsessed with Harry as of GoF. Or Madame Hooch for the sterotypical lesbian (loves sports, short hair). From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 16:27:53 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:27:53 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79355 As much as I love the idea that the Longbottoms are being kept incapacitated by tainted gum, I think that I'd be a little diappointed if this turns out to be the case. It would take away from the tragedy of Neville's life. And Harry and Neville wouldn't be so similar anymore. As it is, they're the only two characters in the books that were orphaned at an early age because their parents actively fought against Voldemort. I really want to see this bond explored, especially since Neville is the only one left with Harry in the Department of Mysteries. Harry and Neville are the only two who were relatively unharmed (Neville had a broken nose and couldn't properly pronounce anything, but compared to the others...) Plus, Alice's symptoms seemed like someone who has severe dementia or psychoses. Giving a person who visits the sick person a small token as they leave, an inability to recognize this person again and again, even if they visit you on a regular basis. Poor Neville. What I could see happening is a charcter getting the idea that the Longbottoms are being kept incapacitated, telling Neville, and finding out that the Longbottoms are incurable. That would just increase Neville's determination to fight. What got Neville working the hardest was the knowledge that the people who destroyed his parents escaped. On a side note, has anyone else wondered if Harry and Neville would have grown up knowing each other if Harry's parents had lived and Neville's parents were sane? Their parents were both in the Order, and it seemed like they were the only two couples in the Order (at least the only two couples to have children). And does Neville know about the Order? Or does he think that his parents were only Aurors? From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 16:35:48 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:35:48 -0000 Subject: Aiming Wand at Bellatrix Lestrange: CRUCIO! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79356 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > Breaking point gets my vote. Also to give the reader more > information about what it takes to make the Crucio curse work. Before > Harry tried to Crucio Bellatrix, I just assumed any clever wizard > could eventually learn how to use that curse, but now we know it has > to have a very intense feeling behind it of wanting to cause pain. > > That makes me wonder, could DD really have killed Voldemort at the > MOM? The AK must work like Crucio, requiring a force of wanting the > person dead. Dumbledore tells LV, "merely taking your life would not > satisfy me, I admit--", so the feeling wouldn't be behind an AK. > > Jen Reese You know, I was wondering the same thing about the unforgivable curses. Can wanting the person dead be enough to use Avada Kedavra, or does one have to like killing? I also thought that any powerful wizard could use the curse. I like the idea that one has to enjoy causing the results of the unforgivables in order to use them. And it made Umbridge's character so much more repugnant for me. JKR left clues that Umbridge liked causing pain (smiling over Harry's pain in detention), but she liked causing pain enough to almost use crucio on Harry. And we saw Draco's reaction to this: he seemed to be enjoying watching Harry about to get tortured. Not to mention wanting to get his hands on Dumbledore's "weapon." Sarah From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 17:30:52 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 17:30:52 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable v. Illegal (Was: Re: Umbridge (WAS: Umbridge's Rape) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79357 I've got to join into the unforgiveable v. illegal debate here. If Bellatrix is to be believed, one has to enjoy causing the results of whatever unforgivable one chooses to use. Harry couldn't properly cast the cruciatus curse because he doesn't enjoy causing pain. He wanted someone to feel the pain he was feeling, but he doesn't enjoy it. (Side note: Harry said that he was going to kill Bellatrix. He agreed when Bellatrix waid he was going to avenge Sirius. So why not try Adava Kedavra instead of the cruciatus? I think he didn't really want to kill her; he wanted her to feel what he was feeling. Hence he couldn't cast the cruciatus because he didn't enjoy doing it.) For the unforgivables, it's obvious that the person who cast it enjoyed doing it, or else the person couldn't have cast it. One can't say it was merely self-defense, because one enjoyed doing it. And after OoP, we saw that there are other magical ways to kill someone and other magical ways to hurt someone. (I'd bet there's a potion to control someone, also.) If Hermione was struck with the full force of whatever curse hit her (the person couldn't say the full spell), she quite possible might have died. Combined effect of four stunners sent McGonagall to St Mungo's. (A side note: why the saint? How was Mungo beatified? Who made Mungo into a saint? Does that mean that wizards in the UK are also Anglican?) I think the difference between the illegal and the unforgivable is that of intent. For something illegal, the intent behind it is questionable. (Like Mundungus' theiving: who knows why he does it?) With the Unforgivables, the intent has to be behind it, or else the spell won't work. The fact that Croch allowed aurors to use the Unforgivables to bring in death eaters disturbed me after Bellatrix's explanation of the curses. Sarah From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 19:48:07 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:48:07 -0000 Subject: Harry's Mistake: CRUCIO-> Bellatrix Lestrange In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79358 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "msbeadsley" wrote: > > > Bellatrix recovers very quickly from Harry's attempt to Crucio! her > and then taunts him that he can't do it because he didn't hate > enough. ...edited... > > Just some thoughts. > > "msbeadsley" bboy_mn: I accept that Harry did not have the intensity of hate and intent to effectively Crucio Bellatrix, but he also made another big mistake when he attempted the curse. The Cruicio is a 'sustained' curse, not an 'event' curse like most curses. Take the difference between a squirt gun/water pistol and a garden hose/hosepipe. A squirt gun is like an 'event' curse; it happens then it is gone; you pull the trigger and get one short squirt. The Crucio, and I believe the Imperius, are 'sustained' curses, when you turn a garden hose ON, the water flows continually until you turn it OFF. Think about the times when we have seen the Crucio curse performed, the pain, and therefore the curse, are sustained until the wizard or witch draw back their wand, and lift the curse. When you cast a Stunning curse, it is an event; the stunner shoots out as a single time-limited event, and either hits it's mark or it doesn't. We have never seen anyone sustain a continuous stunning force. When Harry cast the Crucio, he did it like an 'event' driven curse. He cast it then drew back assuming the curse would take care of itself after that. Since he did not sustain continuous focused intent to cause pain, the curse ended a second after he cast it. I do believe that Bellatrix statement is true, you do need a vicious cruel intent to cause vicious cruel pain; something that is not in Harry's nature. But I also think, even though the book doesn't directly explain this, that the curse failed because Harry did not maintain a sustained focused intent. Just a thought. bboy_mn From eyalronel at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 16:15:59 2003 From: eyalronel at hotmail.com (luppl) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:15:59 -0000 Subject: Society for the Practice of Elvish Warfare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79359 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Journalist" wrote: > Oh, those little house-elves. With their big floppy ears, and bulging eyes... Cute little things aren't they? > > BUT ARE THEY? Dobby and the other Hogwarts elves seem to pretty well-behaved creatures. They live happily in that Scottish castle, using their "powerful brand of magic" for cleaning and food preparation. They've been treated badly, especially during Voldemort's peak of power, so they should be feeling quite pleased to work under such a nice, forward-thinking man like Dumbledore. > > HOWEVER, isn't it rather probable that we will see the elves use their power for... Evil? They can apparate, they can blow grown wizards off their feet, etc. If elves are required by their honor to do as their masters desire, I suppose it would just be a matter of time before Voldemort gets a whole sack-full and orders them to pop on down to Hogsmeade with him and open fire on Hoggy-Warty-Hogwarts, eh? > > -Dan, who thinks the Quibbler ROCKS... Eyal replies: Great thinking, never occured to me, but theoretically, sure, I can imagine an army of house-elves popping around and screaming and do whatever those elvish creatures are able of, terrorizing Hogwarts... but then again, I don't think it's going to be part of the plot. See, Dumbledore so far has predicted every foe and potential enemy the good guys might come across from the Dark side -- that's why he sent Hagrid on his sacred mission to bring the giants to their side. And he feels quite comfortable about the presence of the elves, you can see that by his giving them whatever they want -- freedom, that is, if they like it. Or maybe house-elves are loyal to whatever master they have. In that case, Dumbledore himself has now an army of his own loyal house- elves. The wildest extent would be to have a bloody battle among the forces of house-elves, good against evil, with popping and zapping and the whole deal. Yep, if any army of elves happen to pop into Hogsmeade, Dumbledore's got right the army to face them. Do you know just how many of them are there around in Hogwarts?? Random thinking (seems to be popular around here), Eyal From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 20:18:42 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:18:42 -0000 Subject: Unforgiveable and dark magic In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79360 > Erin: > > Just want to say that yes, there IS a death penalty, the dementor's kiss. Though what they'll use now that the dementors have gone > over > > to Voldy, I don't know... > > > > > Geoff: > In a sense, that's not a death penalty because we're told it's worse > than death, it is existence without a soul....... Erin again: Oh! Of course, you're right, that is not a death penalty, it is worse. I don't know where my mind was.... sorry. From gbannister10 at aol.com Sun Aug 31 20:30:07 2003 From: gbannister10 at aol.com (Geoff Bannister) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:30:07 -0000 Subject: Side note: St.Mungos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79361 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mochajava13" wrote: > For the unforgivables, it's obvious that the person who cast it > enjoyed doing it, or else the person couldn't have cast it. One > can't say it was merely self-defense, because one enjoyed doing it. > And after OoP, we saw that there are other magical ways to kill > someone and other magical ways to hurt someone. (I'd bet there's a > potion to control someone, also.) If Hermione was struck with the > full force of whatever curse hit her (the person couldn't say the > full spell), she quite possible might have died. Combined effect of > four stunners sent McGonagall to St Mungo's. (A side note: why the > saint? How was Mungo beatified? Who made Mungo into a saint? Does > that mean that wizards in the UK are also Anglican?) Geoff: St.Mungo was leader of a 6th century ecclesiatical community on the site of the present day Glasgow and is considered to be the city's founder. From arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com Sun Aug 31 20:39:16 2003 From: arrowsmithbt at btconnect.com (B Arrowsmith) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:39:16 +0100 Subject: Prophets without Honour Message-ID: <3013CB5B-DBF3-11D7-9030-000A9577CB94@btconnect.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79362 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "jwcpgh" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, B Arrowsmith > wrote: > > > > Laura: (clipped) > > > if in fact the prophecy is a red herring, why did JKR spend so >>much time on it? > > > Kneasy again: (clipped) > > > Are you a film buff? Remember the concept of the McGuffin? > > I see DD as the Ultimate Pragmatist; not evil but ready to grit his > > teeth and do the necessary, even if it requires casualties on the > side of good. > > What we don't know is whether DD is also being manipulated by JKR. > >Is the prophecy valid? Can we trust Trelawney to turn out a real, > > complete, accurate prophesy? I suspect not. That's the way the > >canon leans in its treatment of Divination. But taking that line > >complicates things enormously. Who can be trusted? Either, (if so, >>which?) both, or neither? Does it matter in the scheme of things or >>will it turn out to be the McGuffin? We'll probably find out sooner or >>later, but meanwhile it's teeth-gnashing time. > > > > > Laura again: (clipped) > > Well, I suppose the prophecy could be a Mcguffin, except that usually > those are used to kick-start a story (if I recall my film classes > correctly). started. In this case, it's a bit late in the day to think of the > prophecy as getting the story rolling-it's already accelerating at a > dangerous rate. > > The thing that puzzles me about this prophecy plotline is that DD has > deduced everything that LV is likely to do well in advance of his > actual actions. DD knows that LV wants the prophecy. He knows that > LV will discover that only he or Harry can get it. He knows that LV > will soon figure out that he can manipulate Harry's mind. But he > also knows that the prophecy isn't reliable. And he knows that > whether or not LV learns the rest of it, his actions will be the same- > to try to eliminate Harry. Yet he lets the whole catastrophe play > out. > But instead, DD acts as though this prophecy is truly significant > (i.e., in the discussion he has with Harry at the end of OoP). > That's what I don't understand. Usually everyone in the story is > taken in by a Mcguffin. Here, DD seems to be perfectly aware that > it's a fraud-but he lets everyone else think differently. > > I don't agree completely that DD is ultimately a pragmatist. If that > were the case, he would have clued Harry in a long time ago, without > worrying overmuch about the effects on Harry. Instead, he confesses > that he chose to protect Harry against his better judgement. (And of > course, the protection completely backfires, killing Sirius and > further traumatizing Harry.) I can't understand it. It all could > have been avoided so easily... Film classes? How life has changed. I became addicted to films at the Saturday morning matinee - Flash Gordon, Hopalong Cassidy, I feel deprived! You're right that McGuffins usually kick things off, though there are stories where their equivalent can turn up half-way through (Holy Grail in Arthurian legend; not a terrific example, I admit). But in this series, it's possible to argue that the prophesy has been there from the beginning - why else Godrics Hollow? It's just that the readers were gradually led to it instead of having it dumped in their laps in chap.1. DD may well have deduced what Voldy planned, even to the extent of using the PS//SS as bait in book one. But knowing V's aims does not reveal his means. I think he was a bit miffed by the Portkey!Cup. He could not have foreseen the events in the graveyard and the method of Harry's escape. He's in the game of reacting to events. The Order doesn't seem to do much, a bit of recruitment here, a spot of guarding there, all to little effect. V didn't get the prophesy, in the Ministry but DD could not have planned the means of his eventual failure. What does V want? We're told world domination- a likely story. He definitely hasn't read the Evil Overlord List of Rules. He wants the prophecy - why? What does he think it says? He can't believe it gives him a blueprint for victory; maybe a hint or two but not anything critical beyond the fact that there's a little toe-rag to be eliminated before he can polish his throne and call for the interior decorators. That, he already knows. It was in the first line that the eaves-dropper caught. He wants to get Harry out of the way. OK. But according to Sturgeons Second Law, there's more ways to futter a cat than to stuff its head in a sea-boot. He's been constantly thwarted by Harry being lucky. DD is still in the game for the same reason. He lets Harry off the leash and Harry is immediately in deep trouble - again! Will DD never learn? A while ago I theorised that DD was using Harry as bait. Let him wander off, he's bound to attract Voldy, bring him out into the open and - zap! Gotcha! But DD doesn't take his chances. In the MoM, not only does V get away, but he rescues his chief hench-witch too. Not what one would expect from the most powerful wizard in the world. DD seems remarkably ineffectual except when it comes to words, those he's good at. It's no good saying that he's giving Harry on-the-job training, four times Harry has met Voldy!Riddle and he should have been toast every time. Very like saying "Just play with this nitroglycerine and one day you'll be an expert." But DD carries on in his own sweet way, "Oh, and now I'll tell you what it's all about." The prophecy. No it isn't. The prophecy is a minor distraction. Even if it is complete, it lets Harry know that V is after him, something I'm sure he'd guessed already. He's not concerned with beating Voldy, he's much more interested in surviving, and he's having enough trouble doing that already, thank you very much. It tells him that there'll be a showdown, High Noon in Hogsmeade. You mean the previous four times don't count? No, DD is using the prophecy to justify his own agenda. Wish I knew what it is. Kneasy From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 20:37:50 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:37:50 -0000 Subject: OT: St. Mungo is Real (was: Unforgiveable v. Illegal) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79363 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mochajava13" wrote: > > ,,,edited,, > > Combined effect of four stunners sent McGonagall to St Mungo's. > (A side note: why the saint? How was Mungo beatified? Who made > Mungo into a saint? Does that mean that wizards in the UK are also > Anglican?) > > ...edited... > > Sarah bboy_mn: St Mungo's is real. See below... St Mungo (c. 520-612) ***Patron Saint of Glasgow*** Kentigern, nicknamed Mungo (meaning `dear friend'), was the son of St Thenew and was brought up under the influence of St Serf. He became a missionary, building on the Christian legacy left in southern Scotland by the Romans and preaching in Strathclyde, Cumbria and Wales, meeting St David and St Columba on his travels. He was buried in his cathedral in Glasgow and as the city's patron saint, appears on its arms along with pictorial mementoes of his miracles. St Mungo's leads London's services for people who are homeless and most vulnerable. St Mungo's is much more than 'just' 1000 beds for London's homeless people. St Mungo was one of the most important characters in the Church in Britain in the 6th and early 7th centuries. He was active in what is now central and southern Scotland, northern England and Wales, founding both Glasgow (he is its patron) and St Asaph's. He supposedly knew St David of Wales, possibly St Columba and was even supposed to be related to King Arthur, apparently being his great-nephew. St Mungo's Episcopal Church - Alexandria, Dunbartonshire, Scotland Welcome to St Mungo's Website - a church on the outskirts of Edinburgh, Scotland We aim to be a lively and relevant church that is welcoming to all. We are a Scottish Episcopal Church (an Anglican Church), but in many ways we are interdenominational. St Mungo Museum Of Religious Life And Art - This unique museum explores the importance of religion in people's lives across the world and across time. The building, which stands on the site of the medieval Bishop's Castle, was opened in April 1993. St Mungo Museum - Glasgow, Scotland Exploring the world's major faiths - The universal themes of life and death and hereafter are presented through beautiful and evocative objects. Britain's only authentic Japanese Zen Garden adds a unique sense of peace. Glasgow's Coat of Arms dates back to 1866 when the Lord Lyon first granted the city its patent. The emblems depicted within the armorial bearings go back much further in history, representing legendary incidents in the life of the city's founder and patron saint, St Kentigern, or as he was more affectionately known, St Mungo, meaning "the dear one". There are 1,000 more references; shall I go on? Sorry for the Off-Topic but I thought the St. Mungo's information was some very interesting trivia that you might all enjoy. bboy_mn From t.forch at mail.dk Sun Aug 31 19:09:12 2003 From: t.forch at mail.dk (Troels Forchhammer) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:09:12 +0200 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Re: Why Harry Potter cannot be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4.3.2.7.2.20030831180339.024d9500@pop3.norton.antivirus> No: HPFGUIDX 79364 At 04:06 30-08-03 +0000, Steve Vander Ark wrote: > >> it. Harry Potter, as worked out by the fans, is set in 1991, due > >> to the deathday cake. > >The date on Nick's cake is the only specific reference to a year for >the series, that's true. Depends on what you mean by 'specific', I guess, but I don't agree. Not even the Deathday cake is unambiguous, and there are certainly a lot more information that contradicts that dating. The quote doesn't say Playstation, it says computer. Of course there >were computers in 1991. I know, I had one. The quotation most specifically /does/ say PlayStation. I don't know if this is changed in the Scholastic/Levine version, but the Bloomsbury edition has Dudley chucking his PlayStation out of the window (HC 3rd printing w. wrong wand-order and 8th printing PB w. correct wand order). >The timeline she approved gave Harry's birthdate as July 31, 1980. >It is now considered to be officially correct. Hardly ;-) Considering the amount of products which Rowling has 'approved', and the internal inconsistency in these (e.g. the Wizard Cards), there is, to be frank, no value in that approval, IMO. The only information that I can consider canonical is information that /originated/ from Rowling herself - and the DVD ROM Timeline didn't do that. Furthermore the description of the glass ball containing the Prophecy is, IMO, interesting. Rowling carefully quotes everything written on that glass ball ad verbatim, /except the date/! Had she actually adopted the dating from the DVD Timeline this would have been the obvious place to put the year of Harry's birth. As this isn't so, it is my opinion that this is deliberate and that she intends the books not to be dated with respect to specific years (perhaps she don't want us to be guessing at which events in the real world whe might want to be a result of the wizard war - or the reverse causality, for that matter). I have just made a new version of my timeline essay available at: In this I discuss this issue in far more detail than here. The important point to me is to present the data in such a way as to allow people to make their own choice (even if I do present my own conclusion), therefore the main part of the effort is put into the investigation and presentation of the data. /Troels From vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com Sun Aug 31 16:33:52 2003 From: vecseytj at tampabay.rr.com (vecseytj) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:33:52 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: <20030831005121.30866.qmail@web20010.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79365 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Rebecca Stephens wrote: > > --- vecseytj wrote: > > >~snip~ > > even *like* him... > > and I don't think he likes them either. As soon as > > Percy had an > > excuse he bolted, and I don't think he is coming > > back. > > This just isn't true. No matter what else you say, > Percy did not bolt first chance. He lived with his > family for a year after graduating. He didn't have to > do that. He chose to. Whatever else you say, that > cannot be ignored. > > > > Rebecca Hi Rebecca, But, I do think it is true. I think that he stayed with his parents because he wasn't making enough money to move out. And lets face it, Mum making dinner, washing, ironing, cleaning; why move out? And at this point Percy's father still held a hihger position that Percy. But, as soon as he was higher that dear old Dad, Percy bolted. And I find it interesting that Percy never even thought twice that his father might be right. Come on, do you *really* think that Percy got his promotion on *pure* merit? I don't. Percy had just been in *real* trouble with the MoM... and blink twice and he gets a high raking postion? No. Percy is a boot licking, brown noser, who thinks far too highly of himself to see clearly. His father who was concerned for the entire WW (why else would he join the order?), and last but NOT least his family. Arthur tried to tell Percy to *protect* him, and Percy, *couldn't* take the truth. Because it conflicted with Percy's goals, and *firm* conviction that his family is holding him back. (at least that is my Percy take). I have never been fond of Percy, in any of the books. For several reasons. 1. Even when he is trying to be helpful he is not: Trying to help Harry play wizard chess. Harry lost badly, and Harry, said it was cause Percy was helping. 2. Ginny was going to confess about Tom Riddle, and her actions in CoS. Percy made her move from the table, because he wanted to sit with ?Harry? , so before Ginny could tell Ron and Harry what was going on Percy kicked her out. 3. Percy hid that his boss was never coming into the office. Or that he was acting weird. Percy just covered it all up so that he could be in power. 4. I've also thought that Percy turned on Harry because, Percy wanted to be *best* buddies with Harry. But, Harry bonded with Ron... So once again Percy is under valued. Well, I'm sure to get blasted by all the Percy is wonderful, fans. But, that is how I see him. Tj From fc26det at aol.com Sun Aug 31 20:57:54 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:57:54 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79366 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" > wrote: Major snip > > There is one other person on the ward who seems to be suffering from > an effect that has nothing to do with LV or Fudge, and that's Agnes > (she barks). It's possible that Malfoy or Fudge himself are sending > goodies to the Longbottoms (heck, who'd ever suspect the MOM or one > of the major donors to the hospital of deliberately poisoning a > patient? > > Peg What if Alice Longbottom in her delusional state likes puppy dogs and wants to share her candy/gum with the cute puppy? This would explain her possibly coming out of the delusional state enough (due to not getting the full dose of whatever it is) to try to get a message to Neville and also Agnes' lack of improvement. Maybe Agnes is not the intended target. Just throwing my 2 cents in again...... Susan From bboy_mn at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 20:51:25 2003 From: bboy_mn at yahoo.com (Steve) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:51:25 -0000 Subject: Society for the Practice of Elvish Warfare In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79367 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luppl" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Journalist" > wrote: > > ... > > HOWEVER, isn't it rather probable that we will see the elves use > their power for... Evil? ...edited... > > > > -Dan, who thinks the Quibbler ROCKS... > > Eyal replies: > ....edited... In that case, Dumbledore himself has now an army of his > own loyal house- elves. ...edited... > Yep, if any army of elves happen to pop into Hogsmeade, Dumbledore's > got right the army to face them. Do you know just how many of them > are there around in Hogwarts?? > > Random thinking (seems to be popular around here), > Eyal bboy_mn: I'm with Eyal here. First, there are OVER 100 elves working at Hogwarts, so Dumbledore can rally an army of 100 instantly. I doubt that the Death Eaters could come up with more than a dozen, maybe two dozen if they took a long time to organize it. On the other hand, being the good guy and fighting for the fate of the entire wizard world, I think Dumbledore could probably come up with another 50 elves to command, giving him a formitable army of 150 elves. Very little could stand against a force that strong. I've consistently believed that Dumbledore, Harry and Dobby will rally the house-elves against Voldemort, possibly in book 6 when the DE's try to invade Hogwarts, or definitely in book 7 when Hogwarts is invade; maybe both. The elves were severely and cruely oppressed by Voldemort who, along with his DE's, treated them like vermin and used them for sport. I don't think any house-elves have any good feeling toward Voldemort, and might be persuaded by Dobby to act as spys for the Good Side. I will touch briefly on my Elf Theory here. I think Hermione is completely misguided in her efforts toward house-elves. It's true, a house-elfs greatest joy is to have masters to serve, and to serve them honorably. All they really want in return is the same sense of honor and commitment from their master. They don't want pay, they want honor, dignity, respect, and appreciation. To genuinely respect and appreciate a house-elve is the highest reward you could ever give them. Just a thought. bboy_mn From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 21:23:32 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:23:32 -0000 Subject: Things that will come into play later In-Reply-To: <000a01c36fdf$817403c0$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79368 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > > Some things from OOP I think will come into play later. > > 1. Hermione's otter patronus and/or Cho's swan patronus. Were they the only ones to succeed with that spell? If not, why show us only theirs? Was it to show us that Cho is a powerful witch or was it just a personality match? (Swans are beautiful from afar, but not very friendly and even a little dangerous up close) Was Hermione's otter a clue like Sirius's code name "snuffles" (snuffed out)? Add a P to otter, and what do you get? Otters happen to be one of JKR's favorite animals, and the one she's said she'd like to turn into if she could be an animagus. JKR also mentioned that Hermione is very much based on herself. So I think the choice of an otter for Hermione's patronus is only natural, and doesn't have a hidden meaning. Erin From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 20:43:06 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:43:06 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79369 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Just a small thought on this new theory, which is not intended to > undermine it at all, but more a point of curiosity: why would two > adults want to chew such a lot of bubblegum ?? Ok, they have been > tortured, and are not in their right minds, but it seems a curious > sort of sweet for them to choose. DD likes his sweets, but I can't > remember any other incidence of adult wizards eating them in any > quantity... Something about this message struck me... Dumbledore IS the only other adult who is shown as appreciating candy. Could this be a clue of some sort? Are we supposed to connct something about the Longbottoms to DD? Erin From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 31 20:57:18 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:57:18 -0000 Subject: Why Harry Potter "cannot" be set in 1991-? In-Reply-To: <4.3.2.7.2.20030831180339.024d9500@pop3.norton.antivirus> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79370 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Troels Forchhammer wrote: > The quotation most specifically /does/ say PlayStation. I don't > know if this is changed in the Scholastic/Levine version, but > the Bloomsbury edition has Dudley chucking his PlayStation out > of the window (HC 3rd printing w. wrong wand-order and 8th > printing PB w. correct wand order). Dudley chucked his Playstation out the window, thus was no longer able to play Mega-Mutilation III, in GOBLET OF FIRE, set in 1994, when (the list has agreed) Playstations were not yet available in UK or US, but had been test-marketted in Japan. I am not aware of any reference to a Playstation in HARRY POTTER AND THE PHILOSOPHER'S STONE. Please give me a quote with enough context that I can find where in the book to look it up and see if Scholastic changed it. From fc26det at aol.com Sun Aug 31 18:17:57 2003 From: fc26det at aol.com (Potterfanme) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 18:17:57 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS Theory In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79371 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Peggy" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "entropymail" > wrote: Big snip > There is one other person on the ward who seems to be suffering from > an effect that has nothing to do with LV or Fudge, and that's Agnes > (she barks). It's possible that Malfoy or Fudge himself are sending > goodies to the Longbottoms (heck, who'd ever suspect the MOM or one > of the major donors to the hospital of deliberately poisoning a > patient? > > Peg It could be that Alice Longbottom likes dogs so she may have shared her gum with Agnes and that is why Alice is starting to figure out what is happening to her and Agnes is going into la la land. Just a shot in the dark...... Susan From journalisto at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 22:07:51 2003 From: journalisto at hotmail.com (The Journalist) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:07:51 -0700 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things that will come into play later. References: <002301c36fb1$00a2a720$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79372 Joj: 1. Hermione's otter patronus and/or Cho's swan patronus. Were they the only ones to succeed with that spell? If not, why show us only theirs? Was it to show us that Cho is a powerful witch or was it just a personality match? (Swans are beautiful from afar, but not very friendly and even a little dangerous up close) Was Hermione's otter a clue like Sirius's code name "snuffles" (snuffed out)? Add a P to otter, and what do you get? Can we assume Ron didn't make a patronus? Dan: Though the otter is what JKR said she'd most like to turn into (or was it just her favorite animal?), I like your observation about the Swan/Cho parallel. An otter, by the way, is identified with playfulness, dexterity, openess, freedom, and parenting ("Oh, for goodness' sake, Ron!") Joj: 2. The way the stairs to the girls dorm turned into a slide. I think it's a little late in the books to mention something like this unless it will come into play later. Harry and Ron never tried to visit Hermione before, not in 5 years? They never heard about it from anybody else? You'd think someone would have mentioned it before! If that same scene had been in SS or CoS I wouldn't think anything of it. Book 5 though? Dan: Certainly--perhaps we'll see Gryffindor Tower attacked/visited by unwelcome people... I get this funny vision of Voldemort with a curly mustache trying to get up to the girls' dorms and then sliding down... it did seem suspicious to have so late in the series, so it must come back later on. Joj: 3. Harry throwing the unforgivable curse. Was it simply a way for JKR to show us how horrible Harry was feeling inside, that he would resort to that? Was it to teach Harry ,or us, how it's used and why Harry wasn't successful with it? Is it going to eat at Harry that he lost control like that? The fact that Harry did it was a very big deal, but I'm not sure if the important part was that he tried it or that he failed at it. Dan: I think that was it--not only did it show his feelings, but that he doesn't have the heart for pain like Bellatrix does. I'm surprised Harry didn't think about the seriousness of it afterwards--he did something unforgivable, he created pain. -Dan [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 21:34:24 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:34:24 -0000 Subject: Weasley Cousin discussion anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79373 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mark D." wrote: > I read in a JKR interview that she had planned to introduce a > Weasley Cousin. In an interview by Jeff Jenson published in Entertainment Weekly, JKR said (referring to GoF): The first three books, my plan never failed me. But I should have put that plot under a microscope. I wrote what I thought was half the book, and "Ack!" ? huge gaping hole in the middle of the plot. I missed my deadline by two months. And the whole profile of the books got so much higher since the third book; there was an edge of external pressure. And what exactly was that gaping hole all about? I had to pull a character. There you go: "the phantom character of Harry Potter." She was a Weasley cousin [related to Ron Weasley, Harry's best friend]. She served the same function that Rita Skeeter [a sleazy investigative journalist] now serves. Rita was always going to be in the book, but I built her up, because I needed a kind of conduit for information outside the school. Originally, this girl fulfilled this purpose. http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0800-ew- jensen.html Ravenclaw Bookworm From navarro198 at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 21:14:28 2003 From: navarro198 at hotmail.com (scoutmom21113) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:14:28 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79374 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Journalist" wrote: > Hey all, > What is everyone's thoughts on our favorite peppy little teenybopping fanboy: Colin Creevey? > > Personally, I think he'll either end up being murdered (poor innocent boy...). He's always armed with his trusty camera, following Harry around--it would make sense that his obsession would reach Voldemort's grey and scaly ears, and that this boy (and brother, Dennis) is muggle-born. That would be a nice way for Voldemort to not only strike at someone close to Harry (not that Harry pays any attention at all to Colin, but that Colin idolized Harry, and he knows it) and have the added bonus of adding to the hysteria, especially amongst muggle-born/halfblood children. > -Dan I suspect you are right about Colin being killed, but I don't think it will be to get at Harry. With his habit of photographing everything is sight I think he will take a picture, either consciously or unconsciously, of something someone else doesn't want seen. He will either be killed on the spot, or there will be a plot thread with him being hunted, possibly bringing in the DA to help defend him. (This doesn't negate the possibility of hysteria among non-purebloods.) Ravenclaw Bookworm From christyj2323 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 23:24:59 2003 From: christyj2323 at yahoo.com (Christy) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:24:59 -0000 Subject: Weasley Cousin discussion anyone? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79376 >BTW did we ever find out whether the Potters were related to Black? I would tend to think the answer to that question is no, because if there were Potters anywhere on that tapestry either Harry would have noticed or Sirius would have pointed it out. Besides, when Sirius talks about James' family he doesn't sound like they are family to him, especially since he makes a reference to them "feeling like family". Christy From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 16:54:38 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:54:38 -0000 Subject: Umbridge's Rape (Was: Is Umbridge a Half-Breed???) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79377 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "S Handel" wrote: > Sorry for the huge snips...With my line of work (investigator of > rapes, and child abuse) I immediately thought of the rape aspect > also. I discounted it tho as it really didn't seem to fit the "feel" > of the books. I also considered that Hermoine says" Madame Pomfrey > says she's just in shock." The paragraph right before that > says "Nobody really knew what was wrong with her either." I do think > that even in the WW the healers would check for signs of assault just > as they do in the muggle world. I am not saying that all of our > first instincts are wrong....but ya know what they say about wise 'ol > Hermoine!! > Susan You know, I've also worked with rape victims, and now with child abuse, and I must say the thought of Umbridge being raped did not occur to me in the least bit. Umbridge's being raped does fit the pattern of Umbridge's behavior. However, I think she was tortured and about to be ritually killed since clues in the book point towards Centaurs killing as a form of punishment. Firenze was almost murdered for agreeing to teach at Hogwarts. Hagrid arms himself while in the forest because of the centaurs threats. And Hermione calls the murderous at the end of the Grawp scene. I thought she was just terrified at the idea of the centaurs being around because she almost died. Sarah From foxmoth at qnet.com Sun Aug 31 23:27:59 2003 From: foxmoth at qnet.com (pippin_999) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:27:59 -0000 Subject: Puzzles: Wormtail's finger and Shrieking Shack tunnel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79378 Bboy: First, the > book doesn't say they all transform and went into the tunnel. It saysPeter/Wormtail transformed so he could press the knot and freeze the tree. Then they went into the tunnel, not they all transformed and went into the tunnel. > > The logical logistics would be, the rat stops the tree, and they all > go into the tunnel. When they get to the Shrieking Shack end of the tunnel the rat goes through into the house first to create a > distraction. Then the dog transforms and enters the room to help restrain the werewolf. Then James steps into the room and transformsinto a stag. The rat and the dog are small enough to enter in animal form and control the werewolf. Prongs/James being much larger, had to enter the room as a man, and then transform. > > As far as getting out of the Shack for their adventures, Lupin said under the influence of his friends he was calmer and more managable. So, the rat, the werewolf, and the dog went through the tunnel first; the dog being able to control the werewolf if necessary. Once they were out of the Whomping Willow end of the tunnel, the wolf, rat, andthe dog wait in the forest for James to join them as a stag. ...and the adventure begins.< Hmm....that seems a little complicated. The way I imagine it, before leaving the Shack became routine, the three of them entered the Tunnel under the I-cloak and slipped down the tunnel to join Lupin while he was still in human form. They then transformed when he did. It was probably rather unsatisfactory at first...I imagine them, after the sheer thrill of what they were doing wore off, waiting out a long night, each wondering whether they had gone through all the labor of becoming Animagi only so they could stare at each other, mute and helpless. Once they had got into the practice of leaving the Shack, there wouldn't be any reason for James to go down the tunnel at all. Scabbers and Padfoot could go in, release whatever barrier was at the other end (surely the Shack side of the tunnel didn't always terminate in a hole in the floor) and Moony could follow them back outside where Prongs would be waiting. Pippin From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 20:05:43 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:05:43 -0000 Subject: The smoke serpent In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79380 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Karen" wrote: > I took this as being the fact that part of Harry (his blood, in GoF) > is in Voldemort, just as part of Voldemort is in Harry (his scar). I > expect that some of Harry's "power" is warring with Voldemort's > basic nature. Since Harry's power is the capacity to love, or more > accurately, "heart", it could be that Voldemort has times when he is > distracted from his goals. Then again, maybe I'm just making up my > own story! :-) I took the snakes dividing to be representative of Harry and Voldemort. Between the two of them, there is only one essence; one being. Like yin/yang or two sides of the same coin idea. Harry and Voldemort are two different things that are part of one whole. They're now divided, and have interchanged parts of each other. But a divided thing cannot surive; it has to be re-united. Hence, the prophecy: neither can truly live (truly be a separate independent person) while the other still exists. Harry has everything good; Voldemort has everything bad, and there is a conflict being fought between the two over which will survive. Now that Voldemort is back to full power, Harry can no longer truly live his own life. He feels Voldemort's feelings that have nothing to do with his own. Harry's temper was almost constantly at the surface in OoP. While Harry did have a very good reason to be so upset all the time (and teenage hormones made the anger worse), Harry's anger is extreme, and possibly being fueled by the part of him that is Voldemort/Tom Riddle. I'm sure that this works the other way as well. Voldemort only noticed this when Harry showed extreme emotion when Mr. Weasley was bitten; now Voldemort can actively manipulate it. What if Harry has a huge surge of love? Would Voldemort feel that, and be pained by it? Also, Harry literally cannot bear to be in Voldemort's physical presence. His forehead, the part of the brain that gives a person their personality and sense of self, burns whenever Voldemort is near, or feeling something strong. (Possiby symbolic of an attack on Harry's identity?) But Harry can possess Voldemort to a degree without really feeling anything: his saw Rookwood get tortured through Voldemort's eyes, and looked into a mirror and saw himself as Voldemort. Yet Harry was still physically in his bed; hence a possible possession that Harry is unconscious of ever doing. Interestingly, Voldemort is the opposite: he can stand being physically close to Harry, but he cannot possess Harry. Possessing Harry is painful to Voldemort and why Voldemort couldn't possess Harry for long after Sirius' death. Notice that when Harry is actually possessed by Voldemort, he is still aware that he is himself, but now another exists with him. He's aware that something is making his mouth move, but he is blind to his surroundings. Harry referred to an us in his thoughts, thinking that Dumbledore should kill us, not me. Now compare this to Ginny's possession by Voldemort: she remembers nothing of what she did while possessed by Voldemort, and did not retain her own identity. The fact that Harry and Voldemort are in essence one entity is why his possession is different than Ginny's. (Discounting Voldemort's possession of Quirrel since Voldemort now has a body of his own.) I don't think that Harry is following in Voldemort's footsteps and turning into another Voldemort. Tom Riddle killed his own father in his teens by using an Unforgivable curse. And he consciously chose to be named Lord Voldemort while still at Hogwarts. He's still Tom Riddle, but refuses to use the muggle name, and so renames himself. He didn't get some new personality with it. Harry can't kill; he's bothered even by the idea that he might have to murder Voldemort. Even after Bellatrix killed Sirius and Harry vowed to kill her, Harry doesn't use the killing curse, he tries to cause her to feel the pain that he is feeling. (Interested to me that Harry didn't try to kill her even after saying that he would.) Just a side note, it's interesting what Voldemort used to resurrect himself: a part of his father he murdered, a part of a boy who he tried to murder, and a part of someone who is in debt to the boy who destroyed his body in the first place. Seems to me that Voldemort is monumentally cursed. Harry's blood has a protection from Voldemort (and only Voldemort) because Voldemort murdered his mother while she was trying to save him. Now that Voldemort has this blood in him to, does that mean he cannot hurt Harry? And the flesh used in the spell to revive Voldemort is in debt to Harry. Voldemort is in debt to Harry for bringing him back to life. Hm, does Voldemort have a life debt to Harry? Dumbledore did say that life debts are magic in its most impenatrable form (in PoA). Seems to me Voldemort is cursed and destined to die. I also like to think that because the wizarding world is monumentally screwed if Voldemort wins. (After all, only Harry can defeat him.) Sarah From erinellii at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 21:53:53 2003 From: erinellii at yahoo.com (erinellii) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:53:53 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79381 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" wrote: > Just a small thought on this new theory, which is not intended to > undermine it at all, but more a point of curiosity: why would two > adults want to chew such a lot of bubblegum ?? Ok, they have been > tortured, and are not in their right minds, but it seems a curious > sort of sweet for them to choose. DD likes his sweets, but I can't > remember any other incidence of adult wizards eating them in any > quantity... It occurs to me in reading this that perhaps Dumbledore's being the only other adult interested in candy is significant. Maybe there is a clue to a connection here. Just what kind of connection it would be I'm not certain... but I'm sure everyone who's in favor of the ColdheartedSpymaster!Dumbledore (MAGIC DISHWASHER) theory will want to take note. Erin From neonsister at ameritech.net Sun Aug 31 14:52:04 2003 From: neonsister at ameritech.net (Tracy) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:52:04 -0000 Subject: Colin Creevey In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79382 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "The Journalist" journalisto at h...> wrote: "Hey all, What is everyone's thoughts on our favorite peppy little teenybopping fanboy: Colin Creevey?" Colin is not to be trusted, imho. Perhaps this comparison is a bit extreme, but his fascination with Harry reminds me of Mark David Chapman's obsession with John Lennon, and we all know how that ended. Because Colin has access and proximity to Harry's daily life, he (Colin) could be of great use to Voldemort; and being muggle-born would make him all the more "disposable" when his services were no longer needed. Tracy From catlady at wicca.net Sun Aug 31 20:21:38 2003 From: catlady at wicca.net (Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:21:38 -0000 Subject: Weasley cousin/ShriekingTunnel/Wands,wands,wands/Patronus/Slide/St Mungo Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79383 Uncle Mark wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79305: << I read in a JKR interview that she had planned to introduce a Weasley Cousin (snip) My guess for a Weasley cousin is a student who we are told has two wizard parents and lives near Ottery St. Catchpole.... Luna Lovegood! >> These interviews: http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/0800-ew-je nsen.html <> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-schol astic-chat.htm <--> You may be right. The purpose of the Weasley cousin was to transmit information from inside the school to the outside, and Luna could have done so by writing letters to her father that he then printed in THE QUIBBLER, altho' there would have had to be more people who believe what they read in The QUIBBLER in that alternate Potterverse than in the OoP Potterverse. Steve bboy_mn wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79316 : << Prongs/James being much larger, had to enter the room as a man, and then transform. As far as getting out of the Shack for their adventures, (snip) the wolf, rat, and the dog wait in the forest for James to join them as a stag. ...and the adventure begins. >> I suppose that, once the kids decided that they weren't going to hang around inside the Shrieking Shack all night, James would have only had to go far enough along the tunnel to be off the Hogwarts grounds, and then he could Apparate to their meeting place in the Forbidden Forest, never going inside the Shack at all. Who thinks that unregistered Animagi would be too law-biding to Apparate without a license? Marianne kiricat Zarleycat wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79329 : << Perhaps there's a black market on Knockturn Alley where, for a price, one can purchase wands that have been lost or stolen. >> In CoS, on Diagon Alley, the kids find Percy reading 'Prefects Who Gained Power' "in a tiny junk shop full of broken wands, lopsided brass scales, and old cloaks covered in potion stains". Therefore, one doesn't need Knockturn Alley to buy used wands. Relatedly, Laura jwcpgh wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79347 : << So if the wand Sirius used in the MoM battle wasn't the one he got from Ollivander's back when he started school, then it wouldn't have been the proper fit. >> I don't believe there is only one wand to fit each wizard (except maybe a very hard-to-fit wizard like Harry, and probably Ollivander could make another wand to fit him, now that he knows what wand Harry needs). I imagine that most wizard kids go into Ollivander and there are 20 wands (among the 200 in the front room) that would fit them , and each of those wands would also fit 1000 other people. Like my feet and my shoe size. Fred Uloth wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79339 : << He already knows what core, length, and wood type he needs..so he could order it from Olivander without a problem....except that Olivander would probably say something like "Yew wood, 9 inches, unicorn hair core, great for transfiguration...I sold one just like it to that Sirius Black fellow... >> I don't think that the shoe size, resonant frequency, or whatever it is that the wand has that does or doesn't suit the wizard, can be predicted just from wood type, length, core. Remember, Ollivander's little speech included 'each wand is unique, just as each unicorn, phoenix, or dragon is unique'. I suppose that all unicorn's hairs would work for a particular wizard's willow, unicorn hair, ten inches ... and possibly a particular phoenix's feather would work for him if tamed with white pine and eight inches. I also suspect that not all pieces of the same kind of wood are the same -- trees are individuals, too. Joj mom31 wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79342 : << Cho's swan patronus. (snip) Was it to show us that Cho is a powerful witch or was it just a personality match? (Swans are beautiful from afar, but not very friendly and even a little dangerous up close). Was Hermione's otter a clue like Sirius's code name "snuffles" (snuffed out)? >> John Granger, who wrote a book about Alchemy and the Rowling oeuvre, said in his Nimbus 2003 talk that the swan appears at that point in OoP because the swan is a traditional alchemical symbol (whose meaning I forget, sorry), and assigning it as Cho's Patronus was just a way to stick a swan in. What having a swan for Patronus means within the wizarding world depends on what the relation between Patronus form and Animagus form is. I had thought they were different: your Animagus form reflects your personality and your Patronus form reflects what makes you feel safe or loved or valuable. Thus, Harry's stag Patronus is because thinking of his father dying to save him makes him feel loved and protected, and thinking of how popular and admimred his father was makes him feel valuable, and the stag represents his father. But Hermione's otter Patronus is a clue that they might be the same, so that Harry's Animagus form would be a stag if he became an Animagus. I don't see Harry's personality being represented by a stag -- he's more of a leader in OoP (DA) and more competitive or angry, but Snape's Pensieve reminds us that he's still not like his father, so shouldn't his representation be different than his father's? Evidence that Hermione's Animgus form would be an otter comes from the Scholastic chat, above, and many other places where JKR has said that Hermione is based on herself as a schoolgirl, and another place where she answered what animal she would like to turn into. <--> <--> << The way the stairs to the girls dorm turned into a slide. I think it's a little late in the books to mention something like this unless it will come into play later. >> I think that, like naming the deceased members of the Order and explaining why Hermione isn't in Ravenclaw, was put in OoP to answer a question that many fans had asked. Presumably the question was: "How can Hermione visit the boys in their dorm (room) on Christmas? My boarding school NEVER appears students in a bedroom of the opposite sex." Sarah MochaJava wrote in http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/79357 : << How was Mungo beatified? Who made Mungo into a saint? Does that mean that wizards in the UK are also Anglican?) >> St Mungo is a real person, patron saint of Glasgow. His childhood name was Kentigern, meaing 'one hundredth warrior" and "Mungo" means something about "dog". I'd give you a URL for more info but my browser is acting up. From rredordead at aol.com Sun Aug 31 23:21:56 2003 From: rredordead at aol.com (ghinghapuss) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:21:56 -0000 Subject: Sirius' wand In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79384 Laura: (Snip) ...And that might explain why Bellatrix was able to hurt him and why he didn't put her out of action during the battle- he didn't have the full power of his own wand at his command. Now me: It might explain it but I prefer to believe Bellatrix was simply a more powerful witch than Sirius was a wizard and a more experienced duelist. It makes her a formidable opponent for Harry and The Order. Besides if we weaken the bad guys we take away from the strength of the good guys. Mandy, who knows this is off the subject but has a stong desire to give credit where credit is due. From pentzouli at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 20:07:49 2003 From: pentzouli at hotmail.com (holly_phoenix_11) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:07:49 -0000 Subject: Invisible minorities In-Reply-To: <003f01c36d80$129b1260$13f3a986@caro> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79385 Finchen: > I wonder if it is relevant if there is a left handed person. I am a lefty > myself and except for pens I can manage living without any problems. So what > should it be important for? You can also ask Why Cho is an asiatic girl or > why Lee is afro... > > Yours Finchen me, holly : Well, considering that the only difficulty you experience as a left- handed is an object (a pen) and a skill (writing), that has very much to do with holding something right, we could consider it relatively important if someone was stated left-handed in the books, as it is pretty much a similar thing to hold a wand instead of a pen. You hold it right, and you acquire a skill by doing so, which is casting spells. Of course, the way that you hold your wand and how comfortable you are with this is very critical. As for why Cho is asiatic, it is not canon (as far as I remember), only the name is stating the she could be asiatic, and this could be misleading. Hermione is not an english name, yet she is not pictured as greek, even if the name itself is greek. And Lee is afro, maybe because (from my experience) not every english person is white in skin. Personally, being left-handed has mysteriously not affected my writing with both hands. I started writing with the left, then "forced" to write with the right hand because of my body's unhealthy disposition while writing with the hand that nature chose for me. But there are problems that are sometimes very hard to cope with, but in the magic world, I don't think they would be worth mentioning. For example, instead of using the key on a door every time the wrong way, you can simply say "Alohomora" with either hand and voila! the door is open (I could very much like to use it in my work, where I have to open vaults and have a very difficult time doing so...) cheers holly_phoenix_11 From prof_uloth at hotmail.com Sun Aug 31 23:51:51 2003 From: prof_uloth at hotmail.com (Fred Uloth) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:51:51 -0800 Subject: [HPforGrownups] Things that will come into play later. In-Reply-To: <002301c36fb1$00a2a720$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: <5.2.1.1.2.20030831135331.00a873e0@localhost> No: HPFGUIDX 79386 At 07:14 AM 8/31/2003 -0400, mom31 wrote: >1. Hermione's otter patronus and/or Cho's swan patronus. Were they the >only ones to succeed with that spell? If not, why show us only >theirs? Was it to show us that Cho is a powerful witch or was it just a >personality match? (Swans are beautiful from afar, but not very friendly >and even a little dangerous up close) If I recall correctly a swan only loves once (OK...so I got my information from a Right Said Fred song...so it could be completely wrong)...maybe this was a clue that Harry's relationship with her was doomed. >4. Why was Ron's role somewhat weakened in this book and Hermione's >elevated? I'm not talking about shipping here. Yes, Ron was off doing >his own stuff, which has to be important later. Why couldn't he have >succeeded on his own, and still contributed more with Harry and everyone >else. He was at the MoM, but he was put with Ginny and Luna, not Harry >and Hermione. Plus, JKR had him acting all stupid there. He also kept >himself distant from Harry by refusing to offer his opinion several times, >even when Harry was about to do something dangerous. Hermione and Harry >were very close in this book. Why did JKR need to strengthen their bond >even more? It makes me worry for Hermione in the next book! Hmm...I'm led to believe a woman wrote this post. I think JKR nailed male relationships very well with this one. For women, a good friend is someone with whom they can cry, share emotions, discuss whatever. To a man (at least in Teens and Tweens) a good friend is someone who is there, shows loyalty and doesn't pry into emotional issues. The girls (Hermy, Cho, Jenny) are the one that keeps bringing up the topics Harry wants to avoid (death, dreams, etc). Nevilles comment after Sirius dies is as intimate a question as any guy would get with another guy. If Ron were asking the questions that Hermione asks and Harry didn't blow his top, then I'd say the people who think Harry is light in the loafers may have a leg to stand on. JKR has a VERY good handle on relationship dynamics of teenage boys. Guys don't want to talk about it...not when the wounds are still fresh anyway...if they do, it will only be with a female that they really trust. I don't think we should be slighting Ron for being a typical teenage boy...when push comes to shove, Ron is always on Harry's side. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 16:14:09 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:14:09 -0000 Subject: Was: Voldemort Will Win; Harry's Viewpoint Necessary? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79389 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "luppl" wrote: > I really like this thread of thought, and it would really be great for the plot to have such an outstanding twist, Harry dying, but there's a slight problem to this. You see, from the very first moment of Harry's eleventh birthday up to this point, the whole story was told from Harry's own, individual point of view. Note that even within the hardest of struggles, Harry is among the last few people to stay conscience to witness the event, for us to witness it. The little bit of what he misses after fainting is told him afterwards, and you don't really feel like missing a whole lot. Thus, if LV is to kill Harry, the whole story afterwards would have a very strange twist. Because up till now the whole point has been that everyone (Dark, that is) tries to kill Harry, but eventually fails, changing this would make a queer, bizzare new way of looking at things. I don't know if this will work. But there is precedent: didn't GoF start out with the whole background around Frank the groundskeeper at the Riddle House? It wasn't just what Harry _saw_ through the strange dreaming link with LV; point of view changed then. (And *I* want to know who the rich man is who's been keeping Riddle House "for tax purposes") "msbeadsley" From pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 31 22:03:47 2003 From: pipdowns at etchells0.demon.co.uk (bluesqueak) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:03:47 -0000 Subject: Pensieves objectivity AND: Dumbledore's integrity (was Prophecy problems) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79390 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Kirstini" wrote: > > I must confess myself a little disappointed by the willingness of > people on this thread to take Dumbledore at face value. I'm not > necessarily rooting for a revival of ESE!DD, but I did expect to warm > the cockles of at least a couple of sceptics out there. I'm not > entirely sure that Dumbledore has ever conducted himself with the > integrity you attribute to him, much less that the section of the > prophecy Harry has seen correalates to any objective truth simply > because Dumbledore *says* it does. Dumbledore at face value? ::Pauses thoughtfully:: Naah! When I get to produce my post on MAGIC DISHWASHER with new, improved Order of the Phoenix (which at the rate I'm going will be about two months before Book Six comes out), I will not be taking Dumbledore at face value. In fact, I think OOP confirms me in my long held and much argued theory that Dumbledore is a manipulative, lying, son-of-a- ... err, spymaster [grin]. In a good sense, of course. Not because he wants to be a manipulative liar, but because the alternative (Voldeworld) will involve such blood and terror that the quality of life of one small boy will seem very small beer indeed. Dumbledore is betting that if Harry *is* ever able to look back on his life from a vantage point of victory, he will agree that Dumbledore made the right choices. Rather than the easy one of giving Harry a happy life. *However*, the evidence that Pensieves provide objective evidence is becoming very strong. Both in GoF and OOP Harry is able to wander around in the scene and observe things that the person whose memory it is could not have seen. In GoF, Harry can see Mad Eye Moody's expression when Moody is behind Dumbledore. In OOP, Harry can read what his father was doodling on a scrap of paper - despite Snape being several tables away. In both cases, the Pensieve appears to not so much store the person's *memory* as use the memory to access the actual event. We already know that the WW understands time well enough to construct a Time Turner [which incidentally, also implies that the speed of light isn't a barrier to the WW ;-) ]. So it should be possible for them to create a spell that allows you to observe past events. The memory appears to be the trigger. In OOP, Harry suspects that if Snape wanders too far away from James, Harry won't be able to follow James. Just as the time turner requires Harry and Hermione to be wearing the chain, the pensieve requires a connection between events and original observer. But it only needs the *connection*. You don't need to have seen everything [Dumbledore certainly did not see Moody's expression when he gave evidence about Snape], but you need to have been there. So, given the evidence that Pensieves provide an objective account of the event the 'trigger memory' is evoking; we can almost certainly trust the prophecy to be accurate in its wording. This most certainly does *not* mean that Dumbledore's interpretation has any relationship to objectivity. The line where Dumbledore actually tells Harry 'there is no doubt' is described as being spoken with 'great effort'. The implication is that Dumbledore finds it very painful to tell Harry that he must kill or be killed. Another possible interpretation is that Dumbledore speaks with 'great effort' because he finds it genuinely, horribly distasteful to have to tell Harry a direct lie. Dumbledore does lie (mainly by misdirection). In the last chapter of PS/SS, *before* he gives Harry his 'no lies' promise, he tells Harry that preventing Voldemort's return 'will merely take *someone else* who is prepared to fight what seems a losing battle next time ... [my emphasis]. So, there is a choice. Choice one: Dumbledore is lying by misdirection in PS/SS. He tells Harry that he does not bear the burden of defeating Voldemort, *someone else* can also fight Voldemort and delay if not defeat him. This line is said in what we are told in OOP is Dumbledore's full knowledge of the prophecy. If Dumbledore truly believes that Harry is 'the one' of the prophecy, he's lying when he tells Harry that (by implication) Voldemort can be defeated by continual delay, and you don't have to worry about it. Or he is lying directly in OOP. Harry may or may not be 'the one'. Or the fact that the date is repeated twice means that there *are* two people who have the power to vanquish Voldemort. So in PS/SS Dumbledore may have known that there might be *someone else* who can fight Voldemort, and eleven year old Harry really could go unworriedly to sleep that night. And a final possibility (for the Dumbledore is the epitome of goodness fans) is that Dumbledore is simply wrong in his interpretation. He's made the best guess he can about the prophecy's meaning. But it is only a guess. And in PS/SS he was just hoping like heck that the prophecy was talking about a long, long time in the future, and maybe Harry was going to beat Voldemort to death with his walking stick ;-) Kirstini: > However, it has just occurred to me that Harry if Pensieves really > are objective, Harry may be able to review his memory of the point > when it broke and actually listen to what Ghosty Sybill has to say. Another argument for 'the wording is accurate'. Though I hope none of the DE's witnessed the breakage [grin]. Pip!Squeak For the original 'Dumbledore as Spymaster', see "The Spying Game": http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/39662 and for an alternative view of 'Voldemort is quite bright really and his DE's might not be as useless as they seem', see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/4044 From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 21:23:06 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 21:23:06 -0000 Subject: Things that will come into play later. In-Reply-To: <002301c36fb1$00a2a720$a8614242@bumbargefsmy9w> Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79391 Hmm, some pretty interesting stuff here. --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "mom31" wrote: > Some things from OOP I think will come into play later. > > 1. Hermione's otter patronus and/or Cho's swan patronus. Were they the only ones to succeed with that spell? If not, why show us only theirs? Was it to show us that Cho is a powerful witch or was it just a personality match? (Swans are beautiful from afar, but not very friendly and even a little dangerous up close) Was Hermione's otter a clue like Sirius's code name "snuffles" (snuffed out)? Add a P to otter, and what do you get? Can we assume Ron didn't make a patronus? I was wondering if those two were the only ones that could perform the spell, also. Adult wizards were impressed that Harry could perform the spell at all, and even more impressed that he could at age 13. I was under the impression that more than just Hermione and Cho could produce one, since we saw a few failed attempts from others. Plus, a few patronuses disappeared when Dobby entered the room, and unless two is a few, I think more than just Cho and Hermione worked the spell. I did find it interesting that Ron wasn't mentioned in this scene, though. Also, I thought Hermione and Cho's patronuses (however you pluralize that word) were so girly and cutesy. Not that a stag strikes fear into the heart of anyone, but at least it's got big antlers to be, well, pointy an look menacing. Harry's stag did charge at the dementors. What's so threatening about a swan? At least that's a land creature. What was with Hermione's otter? Don't get me wrong, I adore otters and think they're adorable, but if you're not an abalone or other shell fish, how is that frightening? And how could either charge at a dementor? Hermione's otter what, gamboling around the room? I can't picture that; I can only picture an otter floating on its back with a shellfish to eat or diving underwater to get said shellfish. Yes, I know that patronuses are the projection of good feelings and should look nice and all, but I still feel like Harry did at first: they should be be a Hagrid sized figure with a club. > > 2. The way the stairs to the girls dorm turned into a slide. I think it's a little late in the books to mention something like this unless it will come into play later. Harry and Ron never tried to visit Hermione before, not in 5 years? They never heard about it from anybody else? You'd think someone would have mentioned it before! If that same scene had been in SS or CoS I wouldn't think anything of it. Book 5 though? How funny was that scene? I loved it! I'll bet that someone knows how to get around that problem before. Hermione only visited Ron and Harry in their rooms at holidays, which Ron wasn't very comfortable with. Now, if Harry and Ron wanted to sneak up to the girls dorms for other reasons, they'll have to figure out a way to do it! (Somehow I think that Lupin might know the answer to that one from James sneaking up there.) > > 3. Harry throwing the unforgivable curse. Was it simply a way for JKR to show us how horrible Harry was feeling inside, that he would resort to that? Was it to teach Harry ,or us, how it's used and why Harry wasn't successful with it? Is it going to eat at Harry that he lost control like that? The fact that Harry did it was a very big deal, but I'm not sure if the important part was that he tried it or that he failed at it. > Why did Harry attempt to use the Cruciatus and not Avada Kedavra? He said he wanted to kill Bellatrix, but he ended up trying to make her feel pain. Personally, I think he felt the same way then as he did in Dumbledore's office: a desire to make someone else feel the pain that he was feeling. Harry even said that he wanted to hurt Dumbledore so that Dumbledore could feel the pain that he, Harry, was in. I wonder how Harry will react to attempting, and failing, to use an unforgivable. What did he actually do to Bellatrix? She did get knocked off her feet, but she wasn't writhing and screaming. Was she even telling the truth? And who will Harry turn to for these answers now that Sirius is gone? I'm worried that Harry will try to practice the Unforgivables so that he can use them on death eaters. He might turn to Lupin for an answer, but Harry doesn't quite see Lupin as a father figure. (Even though I think Lupin cares about Harry as he would a nephew.) Harry is going to be changed in the next book. Angry, guilty, and depressed. Not a good combination; I wonder if he'll become suicidal at any point (if he does get that depressed). > 4. Why was Ron's role somewhat weakened in this book and Hermione's elevated? I'm not talking about shipping here. Yes, Ron was off doing his own stuff, which has to be important later. Why couldn't he have succeeded on his own, and still contributed more with Harry and everyone else. He was at the MoM, but he was put with Ginny and Luna, not Harry and Hermione. Plus, JKR had him acting all stupid there. He also kept himself distant from Harry by refusing to offer his opinion several times, even when Harry was about to do something dangerous. Hermione and Harry were very close in this book. Why did JKR need to strengthen their bond even more? It makes me worry for Hermione in the next book! > > Joj I'm so glad that others thought this; I thought I was just looking for shipping clues! I did notice that Hermione had a much larger role in OoP, but it's fitting with the relationship between the two that's been growing since saving Sirius together. Ron wasn't in a large part of PoA, he wasn't speaking to Harry in a large part of GoF, and his role was lessened in this book. It seemed to me that Harry was closer in this book to Hermione than to Ron. Who knows, maybe its foreshadowing of life without Ron? Or that Harry and Hermione are getting closer while Ron is branching out more? Ron finally got the attention that he was craving, for things he did without Harry. (Although I think it's a little ironic that Ron was Dumbledore's second choice for prefect, and Ron might not have been the Quidditch star of the last match if Harry hadn't gotten kicked off the team.) I think that Ron's distance might be a defense mechanism on Ron's part. I think that Ron might finally understand that Harry is a target for murder, and not some famous heartthrob. Growing up in the wizarding world, I don't think that Ron really understood that someone really wanted Harry dead, and has since Harry was a year old. I think Ron thought like the other wizards, that Voldemort was gone for good. I think the events in SS/PS might have even solidified Ron's view that Voldemort was gone for good, and Harry would always be there to prevent Voldemort from coming back. Harry's no longer just a hero, but he's now also a figure to be pitied: he watched someone die, was forced to watch an evil wizard get raised, and was violated by being forced to participate in the ritual to bring back the evil wizard. Plus, this evil wizard wants Harry dead. I think that Ron finally grasps this, and just doesn't quite know how to handle it. Ron might be distancing himself from Harry to protect himself emotionally if Harry is killed. Sarah From entropymail at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 22:50:24 2003 From: entropymail at yahoo.com (entropymail) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:50:24 -0000 Subject: SILK GOWNS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79392 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "erinellii" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "a_reader2003" > wrote:DD likes his sweets, but I can't > > remember any other incidence of adult wizards eating them in any > > quantity... > > > Something about this message struck me... Dumbledore IS the only > other adult who is shown as appreciating candy. Could this be a clue > of some sort? Are we supposed to connct something about the > Longbottoms to DD? Don't forget: the password to Dumbledore's office is always some kind of candy or sweet! (lemon drops, sherbet, etc.) In fact, Harry guesses correctly at one point (not sure which book!) just by naming all of the sweets he can think of. Entropy From hermionegallo at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 14:39:26 2003 From: hermionegallo at yahoo.com (hermionegallo) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 14:39:26 -0000 Subject: Droobles Blowing Gum - Not Anagram In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79397 "Lliannanshe" makes an excellent point: "Regarding anagrams of Drooble's gum, Snape's name, etc., JKR has already done the anagram thing with "Tom Marvolo Riddle." Don't y'all think she's creative enough not to do it twice?" I have tried anagrams w/ droobles best blowing gum and have all but concluded that that's not the way to decode it, because there are so many possible ways to turn it around. I agree that JK might not use the same device twice. I've also tried cryptograms. And I've wondered if Alice could add a mark here and there to change a letter, or to indicate a word break: putting a line next to an "o" would make it an "a" or a "p" depending on where you put it; a slash mark in the middle of a word could indicate a new word break. I also wonder if there's something else on the wrapper besides what's already printed on it or what Alice could write on it; without this information, we may not be able to figure it out. I'm almost at the point of letting Luna figure it out, because my brain is scrambled eggs. hg. From msbeadsley at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 16:18:05 2003 From: msbeadsley at yahoo.com (msbeadsley) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 16:18:05 -0000 Subject: Aiming Wand at Bellatrix Lestrange: CRUCIO! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79398 --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" wrote: > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "James Redmont" > wrote: > > The fact that he used Crucio! must be important. It's not > something > > she should lightly throw around, especially since she stressed that > > you get a lifetime sentence in Azkaban for trying it. Was it to > > show us that he's not like the deatheaters? or is it to show us he > > reached his breaking point? > > > Breaking point gets my vote. Also to give the reader more > information about what it takes to make the Crucio curse work. Before > Harry tried to Crucio Bellatrix, I just assumed any clever wizard > could eventually learn how to use that curse, but now we know it has > to have a very intense feeling behind it of wanting to cause pain. But we only know what's needed to effectively cast Crucio because Bella told Harry. And I, for one, don't trust anything that comes out of a DE's mouth to be truth. "msbeadsley" From athenaq at earthlink.net Sun Aug 31 15:30:54 2003 From: athenaq at earthlink.net (nionetinuviel) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 15:30:54 -0000 Subject: green eyes and the killing curse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79401 johnryanmc wrote: > > Do you think there is any relationship between the killing curse with > > it's green light and the mystery of harry's mother's green eyes? > Bboy_mn Replies: > > "the mystery of harry's mother's green eyes" There is a MYSTERY > regarding Harry's mother's green eyes? Not that I'm aware of. The red > hair might impy that they have some Irish ancestory, and I think > amoung the Irish, green eyes are more common. > > So, as far as Harry, I assume he just inherited his eyes from his > mother, and his hair and general features from his father. I have to disagree. I think Lily is the key to the whole thing. The only reason Harry survived Avada Kedavra was because of Lily. SHE made the choice to sacrifice herself and give Harry a future. Which is why this idea of V'mort marking anyone as an equal is bugging me. Without Lily, both Neville and Harry would have simply died. Lily changed all that when she saved Harry. Lily made the choice, not V'mort. The only choice V'mort made was to target the boys to be killed. (Which is why I think the prophecy is bogus & I dont trust Dumbeldores interpretation of it.) That being said, I think there is something yet to be learned about Harrys unusual green eyes. What that is remains a mystery. From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 20:40:45 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 20:40:45 -0000 Subject: Side note: St.Mungos In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79402 Geoff: > St.Mungo was leader of a 6th century ecclesiatical community on the > site of the present day Glasgow and is considered to be the city's > founder. Thanks for the answer! But still, why would wizards name a hospital after a religious figure? The ones that do that here in the US are usually connected to a church of some sort. Plus, St. Mungo's is in London. My geography of Britain isn't too good anymore, but isn't Glasgow nowhere near London? Just curious about it! From mochajava13 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 31 22:14:23 2003 From: mochajava13 at yahoo.com (mochajava13) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:14:23 -0000 Subject: Percy question In-Reply-To: Message-ID: No: HPFGUIDX 79411 Percy is gone for good, in my opinion. JKR's been foreshadowing Percy's split from the family since the first book. First book, Percy goes off to the prefect's cabin on the train to Hogwarts, and stays with them on the train ride. The twins came in and talked to Ron and Harry for a couple of minutes. Could be just to say hi to the famous Harry Potter, could be to make sure that Ron wasn't off by himself. Again, at Christmas, the twins had to get Percy and force him to spend the time with the family. They immediately thought he would spend the time with the prefects. The twins played pranks on him, but they also tried to include him. They stopped trying once it was pretty clear that Percy didn't want to be included. Then in CoS, Percy's reading a book called "Prefects who Gained Power" or somthing like that. Someone makes the comment that Percy wanted to become Minister of Magic or something. He tells off Ron for being in a girl's bathroom because of what it would look like to other people. Percy doesn't try to give Ron the benefit of the doubt that Ron might be doing something legitate in their (after all, if the trio hadn't been to Myrtle's bathroom, they wouldn't have figured out where the enterance to the Chamer was). In PoA, he gets made Head Boy, and it goes to his head. He's being more pompous than usual. Then in GoF, he's obsessed with Mr. Crouch. Percy's quite pleased that he was asked to fill in for his boss at the Yule Ball and the Second Task. He's very pompous towards Harry at the Yule Ball (his "it's not all going to balls" joke to Harry seemed very Uncle Vernon-ish). He's portrayed as a brown noser in GoF, and loyal to the ministry: he argues with his father over Ludo Bagman's ability to lead the sports department. And Percy had only been there a couple of months, and he was acting as if he worked there for years. (Plus, he's bad mouthing the man who gave his family tickets to even attend the World Cup.) He bows to every ministry official he comes near. And of course there's Ron's comment that Percy would sell out his family if they stood in the way of his career. Books 1-4 have foreshadowed Percy's actions quite nicely. Percy wants power. He is willing to distance himself from his family for it. He didn't even send his father a get well card while in the hospital, and Mr. Weasley almost died. He slammed the door in his mother's face when she went to visit him. He ignored his dad in the ministry. And he sent back Mrs. Weasley's Christmas gift. He made it quite clear that he wants nothing to do with his family, even his brothers that work for Gringotts (and was also an ex-head boy) and with dragons. Nope, Percy's gone from the family. If he even tries to come back, only Molly would tolerate him. None of his brothers or Ginny would welcome him back, especially not the twins. The twins dropped out of school but still see their parents, even though Mrs. Weasley probably argues with them about it non-stop. And they came to get the family members at Kings Cross. The twins think their family is important; they're not going to forgive Percy easily. Also, Percy just didn't care that Voldemort could be back; he latched onto the official position. If Percy thinks that Fudge is losing power, Percy would attach himself to whoever he thinks will get power. Makings of a death eater, just like little Peter Pettigrew (who was in Griffindor; wasn't he in the same house as James, Remus, and Sirius? Those three were in Griffindor.) Then again, Percy might be one of those not good but not evil people, either. From brenerik at aol.com Sun Aug 31 23:01:07 2003 From: brenerik at aol.com (brenerik at aol.com) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 19:01:07 EDT Subject: [HPforGrownups] Animagus Message-ID: <109.270ab4eb.2c83d833@aol.com> No: HPFGUIDX 79415 In a message dated 8/30/2003 11:05:07 PM Central Standard Time, jazmyn at pacificpuma.com writes: > I believe a wizard with any reasonable skill in transfiguration can turn > into any animal they have practiced at. This sparked a little something in my mind that might be silly - but would the little "oops" Hermoine had with polyjuice potion in COS make it any easier for her to perhaps transform later into a cat if she so desired? [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]