Grimmauld Place

[kiricat2001]

No: HPFGUIDX 75633

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "scooting2win" 
<scooting2win at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "o_caipora" <o_caipora at y...> 
> wrote:
> > "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> > 

> > Unlikely. Traditionally Britain went by primogeniture (= eldest 
> male 
> > takes all) to prevent fortunes from being broken up. That the 
> Black 
> > forture has held together since the Middle Ages suggests the 
> Blacks 
> > have always done it that way.
> >  
> > > Also, thanks to Kiricat and o_caipora for bringing up the
> > > 'entailments' issue. That certainly complicates matters, or at
> > > least, complicates it relative to what I want to happen.
> > 
> > You're welcome. :) FYI, I don't like Draco. But unless there is a 
> > relative we haven't been told about yet, it looks to me like 
> Grimauld 
> > Place and the Black fortune go to him.
> > 
> > There are two issues: rightful occupation of the house, and 
> ownership 
> > of it. Three issues, if you count Kreacher.
> > 
> > If Sirius formally leased the house to the OOP, it could continue 
> to 
> > rightfully occupy the house despite a change of ownership. If 
your 
> > landlord sells or dies, you don't lose your lease.
> > 
> > I somehow doubt Dumbledore and Sirius sat down and negotiated a 
> > lease, though.
> > 
> > If the house goes to a minor whose Death Eating parents are on 
the 
> > run, someone else would have to act as trustee. That decision 
> might 
> > well go to the Wizengamot, the president of which could probably 
> find 
> > a way to pick an OOP sympathizer as trustee. By the time Draco is 
> of 
> > age the war will be over, anyways, and the OOP won't need a VWW 
> Post.
> > 
> > As to who inherits the ownership, we need to look at patrimony 
and 
> > primogeniture. 
> > 
> > Modern society has great social mobility. The money you have is 
> > essentially the money you've made. The vast majority of the 
> richest 
> > people in the U.S. are first- or second-generation rich, not "old 
> > money". 
> > 
> > But up to the industrial revolution, if you had money you'd 
> inherited 
> > it. The word "patrimony" means "assets", but the Latin 
> > means "father's money". Your money wasn't yours, it was your 
> > family's: you had received it from your father and were expected 
> to 
> > leave it to your son.
> > 
> > Under Brazilian law (with which I am more familiar than British) 
> even 
> > today by law half of your estate goes to your children. You can't 
> > leave it all to a home for stray cats even if you want to. And if 
> at 
> > a not-so-advanced age you decide to spend what you've made to 
> liven 
> > your remaining years with wine, women and song, your children can 
> sue 
> > to stop you from dissipating their inheritance.
> > 
> > After the American Civil War, some Confederate officers were 
> > penalized with the loss of their properties *for their 
lifetimes*. 
> > Use of their lands was auctioned off; when they died the lease 
> ended 
> > and their sons inheirited. That makes sense if you look at the 
> > property as belonging to the family rather than the individual.
> > 
> > More exotic than wizard law, isn't it? But the spirit is in line 
> with 
> > old British custom.
> > 
> > Assuming Sirius made a will (and he had time those long months in 
> > Grimauld Place), he could leave the property that did *not* come 
> from 
> > his father to whomever he wanted. It would not be entailed 
(unless 
> > his uncle entailed it). His other house, his motorcycle, the 
money 
> > from his uncle and so on could well go to Harry. With months on 
> end 
> > with nothing to do in Grimauld Place, he might well have written 
a 
> > will.
> > 
> > 
> > It's unlikely that the fortune would be split in equal parts 
among 
> > the Black cousins. It's likely it goes to the closest "pure 
blood" 
> > male blood descendent, and that's Draco. Bellatrix's descendants 
> if 
> > any may be disqualified because she killed Sirius, but Draco 
can't 
> be 
> > disqualified because he's a git. 
> > 
> > As to Kreacher, creating an exceptionally heavy and ungainly tea-
> > service for him to carry might result in him agreeing to a 
> reduction 
> > in headcount under the traditional Black retirement policy.
> > 
> > If he couldn't carry a tea-tray, I'm sure he'd feel like hanging 
> his 
> > head. 
> > 
> >  - Caipora
> 
> There is one problem here, Sirius uncle left him a good bit of 
money 
> when he was around 16 and got wiped off the black family tree, in 
> the chapter the ancient and noble house of black, so it appartently 
> goes to who the person deceased left it too, and that would be 
> Harry. 

But, that was simply Uncle Alphard's money. If he earned it, he could 
give it to whomever he chose. If, however, Caipora's assumption that 
entailment is used for the property, then the property would 
automatically go to the closest male blood relative, regardless of 
the wishes of the (deceased) current owner.  Plus, I don't think we 
can automatically assume Harry inherits anything of what's left, 
simply because he is the godson.


i'm sure Dumbledore took take of making sure that Sirius 
> prepare just in case something did happen. so therefore the house 
> would be sure to be in proper hands, maybe Sirius as he had said 
> before that all he could do was that house, maybe he gave that 
house 
> to Dumbledore, for use for the order, making sure that it did not 
> fall into the wrong hands, the cousins. Lori

We'll have to wait and see. If entailment is indeed used to pass on 
property, then neither Dumbledore's or Sirius' wishes would prevent 
the house from falling into someone else's hands. I don't have the 
book with me.  Did Sirius tell Harry he "gave" the house to 
Dumbledore/the Order or did he say he "offered" it?  If the latter, 
it would seem to me that Sirius did not give up ownership.

Marianne