Defend OOTP against my horribly Muggle mind! (On Pretension)

[Wiley Willowsbough]

No: HPFGUIDX 76484

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay" 
<feetmadeofclay at y...> wrote:

> 
> Why is it pretentious to believe that children's books can both be 
> aimed at children and have good prose, character development and 
well 
> developed themes?  IMHO many kid's books have achieved just that.  
I 
> think POA did.  It isn't the BEST I've read, but I think it good.

Wiley:

I think, somehow, Clay...we're agreeing, but somehow sounding as if 
we are disagreeing.  :-)  When it comes to children's/young adult 
literature, I think that HP (and agreed, PoA in particular) is 
probably among the best current literature out there, aided and 
abedded in particular because it is so engaging to young people.  I'm 
quite partial to Louis Sachar as a children's lit author, but when it 
comes to pure deep, long, serial-length book series, the quality of 
HP is definately up there.  

Certainly, I would recommend books like "Tom Sawyer" or "Alice in 
Wonderland", or more contemporaries like "Holes" or "Lemony Snicket", 
but most young people simply don't find those books overly engaging, 
or they just aren't as deeply written as HP.
> 
>Clay:   But as it is... HP is being taught at least two 
universities.  And of 
> course MANY schools have Children's Literature courses quite 
> legitimately IMHO. It is a valid thing to study. What makes a great 
> book for children?

Sorry for being so vague.  I was meaning that HP generally wouldn't 
be taught in most adult literature courses on the basis of its own 
literature...it is usually more for the external issues surrounding 
it today:  the craze, marketing, controversy, book banning, etc.  
Naturally, I would expect it to be in a Children's Lit class, as that 
is 
exactly what it is.
> 
Clay:  
> 
> Not all will be classics but that doesn't make them bad.  Will the 
> last book I read be a classic?  Who knows? - It was still good even 
> if it isn't Joyce or Hemingway. Just as OOTP may be a good book 
even 
> if it is forgotten.  But is it a good book?
> 
> A book doesn't have to be a favourite or perfect to be good.

Wiley:

I guess my point is that I'm avoiding comparing these books to what 
some would consider the weathered classics of adult literature.  Do I 
think OotP is fantastic literature?  Overall, its pretty good.  Is it 
as good as PoA or even GoF...I'm still undecided.  However, what it 
has done for the "here and now" is continue the serial and the 
storylines, and like us adults, many kids are waiting on pins and 
needles for some of the same things we are...SHIPs, who will die, 
etc.  In the current world of children's/young adult literature, I 
think it as high quality as you will find.

Clay:
> 
> So have I. But as a teacher of pre-teens, surely you have seen the 
> other books? What do you teach your pre-teens?  Or do they not 
> deserve clean effective prose or insightfully written novels. 

Wiley:

Huh?  *Deserve* it?  Trust me, Clay, don't believe for a moment that 
I am on some crusade to shield my students from good writing.  That, 
in my opinion, Clay, was a little uncalled for.  When I teach HP 
(which I only do during my summer school course), I bring it up 
exactly as it is presented...a well-written young adult book that is 
rich in concepts, ideas, and characters.  The fact that I can work 
with 100 kids who have read all of the books allows me to work 
completly beyond comprehension activities and straight into 
extensions, synthesis, and other high-level skills that most teachers 
rarely have time to get to with a class.  I can teach Anne of Green 
Gables (which I don't right now), but in the time it takes me to make 
sure they have all read the story (which most wouldn't choose to do 
in their leisure time, particularly a book like that), and get just 
through
the comprehension activities, the opportunities for high-level skills 
are 
usually limited.

I do work with many trade books in my class, most of which are 
Newberry Award winning books...and they are well-written and deeply 
insightful in plot.

> Clay: 
> So the question is OOTP (specifically) worth the praise it is 
> getting? (Which is IMHO VERY high indeed.) Obviously you think so.  
> Obviously I disagree.  But let us talk about what is really being 
> asked instead of just saying "Well it isn't as horrid as some of 
the 
> junk out there", as if that would generally be a signal - This book 
> is great!
> 
Wiley:  

Here's where I think we're agreeing again.  Do I think that OotP 
deserves high praise in terms of the series?  Probably not.  I think 
it is the weakest of the last three books, and was bugged at the 
change-up in eliminating the "red herrings" which were the trademarks 
of the first four books to the cheap "is THIS the person who will 
die???" throughout.  However, in the world of children's/young adult 
literarure, it is still deserving of praise...where it lacked in 
continuing the storyline, it deepened characters through their 
actions and their feelings...not just telling us who they were and 
what they were up to.  I wouldn't say a kid should read OotP above 
Anne of Green Gables or any other quality book.  My point is, and 
continues to be, that the series is extremely high quality for a 
young adult book...and that attempting to qualify it with the same 
strategies people used in their college Lit classes is a bit 
unfair.
> 

> 
> Clay:
> How about the level of Hodgson, Diana Wynne Jones, Lemony Snicket, 
> Sellwen and dozens of others whose work I think we SHOULD be 
> comparing with OOTP  (adding whatever children's writers you 
> enjoy...).  Afterall if it gets kids reading it has served a 
purpose, 
> but to paraphrase Hensher that is not the same thing as writing a 
> good novel.  
> 
> It doesn't have to be Joyce, but is it as good as Robert Cormier's 
> stuff?

Wiley:

Who said it had to be compared to anyone?  I love (and my students 
love) many authors.  In my own class last year, I doubt I had more 
than four students who had actually read the HP books at all.  I just 
find it odd that people who are on this list are finding it necessary 
to compare and catagorize this book among adult literarure.  It just 
isn't adult literature...we're adults who enjoy a really well-crafted 
young adult book series.
> 

Wiley, wondering why it doesn't bother him when people dis HP 
otherwise, only when people are trying to compare it to legendary 
adult literature.