Defending Ron ? (was: Defending Ron (was Re: SHIP: kiss on cheek before quidditc

[serenadust]

No: HPFGUIDX 77557

AAm wrote (quoting me):
> Jo Serenadust wrote : Well, now *I'm* offended! <Snip>

Just to clarify, I was just kidding when I wrote that.  I'm not 
*that* touchy, honest :--D.
You left out my <vbg> when you snipped.

I continued:
> > As for his rift with Harry in GoF ::sighs::, where does it 
indicate 
> > that he wants success to Harry's detriment?  He's upset with 
Harry 
> > because he (wrongly) believes that Harry has put his name in the 
> > goblet without telling Ron in advance how he plans to do it, and 
> > then refuses to admit that he did so. 



AAm responded:

> I have to advise you to reread the end of chapter 17 of GoF 
(sorry, I 
> can't quote it myself because I've got a foreign - non UK/US - 
> version of it, but if you follow my advice you will surely be able 
to 
> notice that Ron is "quite" bitter : he really lets things out when 
> Harry goes back to sleep in his dormitory.
> Let me paraphrase it that way :
> [Ron is talking to Harry] "Of course you didn't mean to do it ! 
You 
> didn't want those thousands galleons cos' you don't need them, 
you're 
> already sooooooooooo richy !!! And now you've just insulted me 
[Harry 
> said something like "you're a moron" to him], go to sleep, you 
lucky 
> boy, you have to sign autographs to the screaming crowd tomorrow 
> (aka : Gilderoy Lockhard's old grievance against Harry in Ron's 
> mouth)".


I did go back and re-read the end of Chap. 17, as you suggested, and 
I'd characterize Ron as quite hurt and skeptical, rather than 
bitter.  As far as really letting things out, my impression is that 
he's actually struggling to keep in control during this exchange.  
He's not lashing out at Harry for being champion, he's telling Harry 
that he would have liked to have been included in his apparently 
successful attempt to get his name in the goblet.  He would have 
liked Harry to have confided in him, as he always has in the past, 
before going forward with the plan (and leaving Ron out).  The only 
note of "bitterness" creeps in when Harry refuses to admit to Ron 
that he put his name in.  Ron is quite wrong about that, of course, 
but Harry is so angry about Ron not believing him that he misses the 
signs of hurt and betrayal on Ron's part.  That's what makes the 
whole episode so heartbreaking, IMO.

Since you are apparently working from a translated copy of GoF, it's 
hard to know exactly how the nuances come across, so I can see how 
you may have a different impression of this passage.

AAm continued:
> OK, I have to admit that I may amplify things a little bit too 
much, 
> but Ron does not only harbour resentment against Harry simply on 
> account on what he considers being Harry's refusal to tell him 
what 
> really happened and how he managed to dupe everybody (something 
that 
> even Fred and George couldn't achieve). Definitely not. There is 
> something more, and that "something more" is described in the 
book. 

My point is that there really isn't the "something more" you speak 
of, IMO.  Can I ask you to go back and read messages 52038 and 
52039?  This is Dicentra's famous "Anatomy of a Rift" essay where 
she does a spectacular job of dissecting this episode.  Please don't 
be put off by the length, as it's very tightly and clearly written, 
and IMO covers these points better than anyone else has, before or 
since.  It's truly a classic. (End of fangirly gushing about Dicey's 
posts)


AAm.
<snip> 

> Same thing with OoP : after his triumph as a Quidditch goal-keeper 
he 
> keeps talking about it again and again until the next day so that 
he 
> isn't even aware of Harry and Hermione's unforgettable trip with 
> Hagrid into the forbidden forest. 

But how would he have been aware of H&H's trip into the forbidden 
forest?  Was he supposed to be keeping an eye on them while he 
played the most sucessful Quidditch match of his life?  After all 
the time he's spent helping Harry bask in the glory of his 
achievements, I think he was entitled to spend a little time 
enjoying his own. I was surprised at how quickly he dropped any 
feelings of resentment and disappointment at their having missed it, 
once they explained why.



<snip>

 Me:
> > He doesn't even really refuse to speak to him.  

AAm. 
> Hey, wait a minute. You really like Ron, don't you ?

Me:

Er...does it really show? ;-)

I said: 
> > As for the assumption that Hermione is destined to be MoM, I 
> > sincerely doubt that is likely unless the office is 
automatically 
> > awarded to the witch or wizard with the most NEWTS.  Her people 
> > skills and political instincts are not nearly as well developed 
as 
> > her intellect.  Frankly, I can see Ron being MoM more easily 
than I 
> > can see Hermione in that position, but it's purely speculative.


AAm responded: 
> Now, *I* am offended. Hermione sometimes "offends" people (as we 
all 
> happen to do ;-) ) but you cannot say that her "people skills are 
not 
> nearly as well developped as her intellect". Not only is she 
always 
> telling Harry and Ron why other people do behave the way they do, 
but 
> she also explains to the two of them how these people, and how 
they - 
> R and H - are feeling. Of course, she sometimes acts like a bull 
in a 
> china shop but she's becoming more and more full of empathy for 
> everyone (I won't work out that precise point here but it would be 
> something worth discussing at length IMO : Who is Hermione beyond 
the 
> caricature ? Another topic coming soon ?).

Now me:
I really didn't mean to offend you, but I do stand by my statement 
about Hermione's "people skills" vs intellect.  Yes, she does a good 
(possibly "too good") job of explaining other people's behavior and 
feelings, which makes her own poor people-handling all the more 
amusing.  Do you really think she "empathises" with the house-elves, 
or the centaurs?  I really hoped to see her develop more empathy for 
the feelings of others in OOP, but I didn't see any progress in this 
area.

I do look forward to your "Hermione beyond the caricature" post.  I 
think there's lots to explore there.

Jo Serenadust