[HPforGrownups] Justice in the WW

[manawydan]

No: HPFGUIDX 77570

Golly:

>Well... You have a point about Riddle's comment. I meant that the
>same Queen of England would be Queen of her magical subjects.  From
>what I can see they still live in England and the English governement
>seems aware of them.  I find the idea that the English crown would

What we don't know (and which has created speculation in the past) is
exactly _how_ the English government is made aware of things that the MoM
deems it appropriate for them to know. I'm not convinced that the Queen is
the means of transition (but then there's nothing in canon to contradict
it!)

I've posted before in terms of what means of communication the _MoM_ might
think, from its WW perspective, the best way to do it, and wondered if there
is a wizard working in the central part of the English civil service, the
Cabinet Office. S/he doesn't actually work _for_ the Cabinet Office, so
there's no records: s/he is officially on secondment from another
department. The only thing is that anyone who starts wondering _which_
department, how long s/he's been there, what exactly s/he does, etc, gets a
sudden overpowering urge to think about something else...

What is the MoM mole really doing there? Mostly I think passing information
back to the MoM about possible threats to its secrecy: giving the MoM the
opportunity and the impetus to put new enchantments in place to circumvent
whatever the Muggles are thinking about doing. But if something has to be
passed in the other direction, then they can do that too - a top priority
paper will go via the head of the civil service straight to the Prime
Minister's desk.

I think the WW _understands_ bureaucracy, because it is one. Therefore it
looks for another bureaucracy to channel information.

>Well, then it is even more of straw man. If the point is to discuss
>the implications of corruption then in creating a government with a
>system to easily bent towards corrupt, you create a straw man.

Well, a bureaucracy isn't necessarily corrupt. It _can_ be highly moral and
have all sorts of internal safeguards and procedures which keep its
employees on the straight and narrow. Basically what matters in the
bureaucracy is the system. The system, the way things are done, is the boss.

But here's what I think is the _root_ of the problem in the WW. The way to
change the system itself appears to be a Wizarding Congress. But if you have
a Wizarding Congress, the wizards who go to it are the ones who are
motivated towards matters political. Again, where are wizards who are
motivated by matters political going to be working? Answer - for the
bureaucracy.

It is self-perpetuating and "stuck".

>If the WW is nothing more than some South American style dictatorship
>with its justice, rules and enforcement flowing all from one single
>source, its weaknesses are obvious and Rowling belabours them.

But there isn't any suggestion that the WW is a dictatorship. Fudge is the
minister, and he must work within the system, as must they all. Umbridge
cannot impose herself on the School without directives to back her up. And
even more importantly, the system appears to have the _support_ of the
general population. Although characters criticise individual members of the
bureaucracy, none of them, even muggle borns, do any bitching about the need
to overthrow the system and install a new one.

Apart from the DEs that is - and of course they _do_ want a dictatorship/

>The end result is also to paint witches and wizards as foolish (for
>trusting their government) or powerless against it. I don't get the
>feeling that is what I'm supposed to be getting though in the books.

I think that _is_ a possible reading of the books though, even if it's not
yours...

Cheers

Ffred

O Benryn wleth hyd Luch Reon
Cymru yn unfryd gerhyd Wrion
Gwret dy Cymry yghymeiri