Self-Sacrifice/Voldie'sGoal-Bellatrix-Lucius-Snape/Flowers/Ship/ShadesOfGray

[Catlady (Rita Prince Winston)]

No: HPFGUIDX 78548

samnanya wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78475 :

<< I have read the arguments here for love, hope, etc. but the one 
power that I believe is being referred to is self-sacrifice. His mom 
gave up her life for Harry, and Harry has time and again been willing 
to sacrifice himself if it means saving others. >>

Yes, but there can be self-sacrifice for Evil. Barty Jr did it, 
altho' perhaps not on purpose, and Bellatrix seems willing to do so.

Abihgail wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78512 :

<< Let's examine Voldemort's stated purposes - they are surprisingly 
vague. >>

I believe that Voldemort's biggest goal (his heart's desire) was 
to be feared by all wizards ("I fashioned myself a new name, a name 
I knew wizards everywhere would one day fear to speak, when I had 
become the greatest sorcerer in the world!"). 

That is a *remarkably* non-constructive goal, outright destructive. 
For its gratification, he could go on destroying, killing, wreaking 
horrors, as long as there was one wizard left alive. If that last 
wizard died, if all humanity was wiped out, all life on Earth or the 
physical planet itself destroyed, then he would realise that he had 
gone too far. I feel that one or two of Voldemort's loyal followers 
loved him as a means to their own (can I say nihilist?) goal of 
destroying all life on Earth or the planet himself. This contradicts 
the listie who posted (before OoP) that in the long run, Voldemort's 
victory wouldn't matter, because people go on farming and cooking and 
trading and eating regardless what government is in power.

<< I think it was the realization that Voldemort was proposing 
anarchy. That he meant to make them all his servants, that made these 
old families reluctant to support him openly, >>

See, you agree with me!

<< Lucius Malfoy is, I suspect, an anomaly. He desires power, and 
clearly doesn't believe that the world as it is today will provide 
him with enough of it. >>  

To me, Lucius desires power, and feels that there is no such thing 
as ENOUGH power. To me, Lucius believes that he is using Voldemort to 
get power for himself. I believe that Lucius signed on with Voldemort 
not because he viewed Voldemort as a strong leader to follow to that 
leader's victory, but because he viewed Voldemort as a strong horse 
that he could ride to his own victory. I often wonder if Voldemort 
knows this and intends to turn on Lucius *just* before Lucius makes 
his move against the victorious Voldemort. 

<< Bellatrix Lestrange is a sadist - Voldemort offers her an oppor- 
tunity to indulge her desires, whereas her own society might expect 
her to be a woman of leisure, prettying up her husband's arm. >>

Yes, but you make it sound as if she thought it out and made a 
rational decision. That doesn't correlate with the passionate 
devotion she showed in the First Pensieve Scene. I believe she made 
an *emotional* decision: she "fell into" hero-worship of Voldemort. 
Certainly the reasons for the hero-worship include their shared trait 
of sadism: she maybe read of his horrors in the newspaper and felt 
vicarious gratification, leading her to muse: "What a man!" I think 
she was sublimatedly-erotically aroused by his display of POWER, 
magical power displayed by acheiving immortality and social power 
displayed by sending his followers to kill people.

Melpomene wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78518 :

<< The question isn't 'why did Snape *join* the Death Eaters?' The 
question is 'why didn't he *invent* them?' >>

If we are to take the Second Pensieve Scene at face value, young 
Snape didn't have the charisma to attract followers, nor even 
playmates whom he could talk into a conspiracy.

Katrina wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78530 of flower 
names:

In the 19th century 'language of flowers', << Petunia represents "Not 
proud." >>

I think JKR named Petunia because it sounds like 'petulant', not to 
mean 'not proud'.

<< Lavender: "Distrust or Mistrust." >>

I think JKR named Lavender Brown because it is two colors, not to 
mean 'distrust'.

<< Myrtle represents "Love in Absence." >>

Myrtle is a tree of Venus, therefore representing sexual love 
(the song "To Anacreon In Heaven" which gave its tune to "The Star 
Spangled Banner", ends the first verse with "and learn to entwine / 
the myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine"), but my recollection is 
that 19th century symbolism used it for grief over lost love. Hence, 
"Moaning" Myrtle can be not only a pun on "Weeping Willow", but a 
reference to her beginning-sexuality interrupted by death, leaving 
her only to ogle boys in the prefects' bathroom.

Eligro2000 wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78531 :

<< Dumbledore and McGonagall. Evidence: (snip) well, it must get 
lonely at Hogwarts over the summer. >>

I consider Dumbledore and Pomfrey to be *possible*. Evidence: "I 
haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey complimented my new 
earmuffs." However, I believe that Dumbledore and McGonagall is 
IMPOSSIBLE because I FEEL *certain* that McGonagall and Hooch have 
been a monogamous couple for a very long time.

Some people ship Dumbledore and Snape.

Kirstini wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/78532 :

<< HUMBLE, as well you know, stands for How Umbridge Modernises 
Badness/Light Enquiries - how the introduction of Dolores Umbridge, 
undoubtedly evil, and yet not siding with Voldemort, opens up the 
text to new interpretations of "good" and "evil", and constitutes 
a move away from the child's black/white understanding of these 
concepts as fixed binary opposites >>

But that started in GoF with Rita Skeeter, undoubtedly an evil-doer, 
therefore either evil, or at least amoral when it comes to her 
career, but there is no sign that she's a DE, and I believe she 
isn't. In some way, it started in CoS with Lockhart undoubtably an 
evil person, but not in alliance with Voldemort or Tom Riddle's 
memory.

Your part three Portrait of Talisman pointed out that the shades of 
gray start at the beginning, but make a different point than mine 
about Rita Skeeter and don't mention Lockhart.