Generation parallels/ Lupin's personality (WAS Re: Lupin as next Headmaster)

[Richard]

No: HPFGUIDX 78849

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Jen Reese" <stevejjen at e...> 
wrote:
> Yes, I was taking the stance that all manipulation is *bad*, but I 
> suppose you could call what Remus does "empathic manipulation"
> along  the lines of what a therapist or minister might do--offering 
> alternative explanations in hopes someone will see a different 
> perspective.

While I agree that SOME manipulation is bad, I'm not prepared to say 
that ALL manipulation is bad ... and I hope your comment about 
the "manipulation" done by therapists is leading you to the same 
conclusion.  I cannot see that a therapist in particular who 
manipulates a patient into some important realization or action is 
doing something necessarily bad.

When you think about it, isn't good parenting to a large extent the 
practice of manipulation for the benefit of the child(ren) being 
manipulated?  And would you call that bad?

Dumbledore is arguably quite manipulative, especially in his use of 
light sarcasm to show people that what they are saying or doing 
is "off."

The question for me, regarding manipulation, is the intent ... 
Somewhat along the lines of the old philosophical dictum that one 
should treat others not merely as means but also as beings.  We 
cannot avoid using others (treating them as means) by virtue of the 
fact that we buy food from others, thereby using the vendor, the 
grower, etc., in a long chain.

If you ask someone what time it is, you are using them as a means, 
not treating them as being.  Being POLITE about it shifts you 
somewhat in the being direction, but you are still using that 
person.  Now, let's say you think you recognize someone, but can't 
see them full-on well enough to tell.  You can ask that person the 
time (provided you are prepared to either claim you aren't sure about 
your watches accuracy or such), and thus get them to turn enough that 
you may be able to tell if you know them ... without raising 
suspicions that you didn't recognize them in the first place.  This 
is a rather benign use of a person to me, yet is manipulative in a 
minor key.

My conclusion?  Intent plays a critical role in the ethical content 
of any act of manipulation, but some manipulation is neither good nor 
bad but benign.

> Of course, we all know how well it works when we try to illicit 
> change in others :) !  Even if Remus subconciously hopes to have an 
> effect on his audience, it's still a crap shoot whether anyone will 
> heed his counsel. Molly and Harry trust him and therefore responded 
> to his words. Snape, on the other hand, would see any attempts at 
> empathy from Reums as patronization at best, and evil manipulation 
> at worst.

Which brings us to the second point.  Perception ... one's subjective 
experience of manipulation, or of the person one believes to be 
attempting manipulation ... is distinct from intent.  One reason I 
suspect that manipulation has such a bad reputation is that it is 
often done poorly.  Another is the misunderstanding that manipulation 
must always be bad.  Thus, when one feels that an 'enemy' is trying 
to manipulate you, even if for benign purposes, it is likely to seem 
a wrong commited by that person.  Through in manipulations that a 
putative enemy may attempt in order to show one that he/she is NOT 
really an enemy, or manipulations by REAL enemies intent upon doing 
harm, and manipulation gets a very bad reputation.