Muggle traditions at Hogwarts? (Was - Re: Religion)

[Steve]

No: HPFGUIDX 78882

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "feetmadeofclay"
<feetmadeofclay at y...> wrote:
> --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Steve" <bboy_mn at y...> wrote:
> 
> > ... Christmas time and Easter time holidays ... predate our modern
> > concept of Christmas and Easter. ...  these ancient holidays 
> > evolved into our version of Chirstmas ... the wizard worlds 
> > concept also evolved. 


> feetmadeofclay:
> 
> Except that they celebrate it the way Muggles do even with their own 
> (oppressive) version of fairylights and similar carols that would 
> have been far more recently written.  

bboy_mn:

You ignore one very critical word in my post, 'evolved'. 
" ...these ancient holidays /evolved/ into our version of Chirstmas,
it seems reasonable that the wizard worlds concept also /evolved/."

The Christmas time celebration according to my research is over 4,000
years old.

The wizard world lives, base on the speculation of many, in
approximately the 17th or possible in some ways, the 18th century. I
think Christmas, as a Christian holiday existed back then. 

I will top that off by saying that not only do I think wizards are
aware of Christian history, I think they took an active part in it. It
would seem that the wizard and muggle world have merged and separated
many time through out history. It seems reasonable that at sometime
during 1,000BC to 1,000AD, they must have been merged.


> feetmadeofclay continues: 
>
> What explains the use of Christmas trees (a modern import to Britain
> - or are all Wizards traditionally German?) and use of the terms 
> like 'Christmas'. 

bboy_mn:
The history and tradition of the Christmas tree, although since it
predates Christmas, it didn't go by that name; is over 1,000 years
old. And, yes our modern western version of the Christmas tree as well
as many other aspect of our modern Christmas do come from German
traditions. So, if those traditions can go from the German world to
permeating the entire Western world, and even penetrating into the
Eastern world, why not from muggle world to wizard world?

> feetmadeofclay continues: 
> 
> They don't celebrate the solctice or such.  


bboy_mn: again, a product of evolution.


> feetmadeofclay continues: 
> 
> There is also no reason to set the term the way they do around 
> Christian holidays.  ...edited..
> 
> These are all meant to be common aspects with the muggle world.
> 

bboy_mn:

There are many aspect of the muggle world that encroach on the wizard
world. Especially, in more recent history as muggles/muggle-borns and
magic people inter-marry. 

But as I tried to point out, while wizards may have access to the
muggle world, they are able to go about their daily lives without
interacting with it. Just as people who live their foreign lives
completely in Chinatown-LA, Chinatown-London, Chinatown-New York are
able to live in those foreign countries and completely avoid the local
culture. They live Chinese, they speak Chinese, they associate only
with Chinese yet they do not live in China. It's not that hard to
avoid and remain ignorant of a culture that surrounds you if you are
provided with the resources to do so. 

So, wizards do have some exposure to the muggle world. When you marry
a muggle born, you can't separate yourself from the traditions that
your muggle-born spouse takes for granted. But at the same time that
bits and pieces are forces on you, you are still able to avoid the
bulk of it because your daily life does not require that you interact
with it.

Think about this as a point of perspective. Western Christmas or
perhaps I should really say Western XMAS is celibrated all over the
world. They celibrate it in Japan, and Japan is mostly Shinto and
Buddhist. It wasn't that hard for THAT foreign culture to take on a
tradition that was foriegn to their own. If the Japanese can celebrate
Christmas (year end holiday and time of gift giving) then why not the
wizard world. A wizard world that has thousands of years steeped in
western tradition, tradition and culture which they to a limited
extent helped form.

> > bboy_mn originally said:
> >  Christ's birthday and death day are ancient events,... On the 
> > other hand, electricity, the Telly, radio, computers, airplanes, 
> > etc.. are all very very very modern inventions. 
> > 
> > Just a thought.
> > 
> > bboy_mn

> feetmadeofclay continues: 
> 
> Explain the wireless and the knight bus and the Hex.  They have 
> knowledge of these things even if theirs work on magic.
> 
> If you can find out a reason why they have a knight bus but can't 
> manage to get a Muggle grade 10 science textbook to learn about the 
> muggle world and things like electricity, I would be most grateful.
> 
> Golly

bboy_mn:
Well, as someone pointed out, they do have 'Muggle Studies'. Although,
I suspect that their study of Muggles is warped by their own
perspectives and expectations.

The wizards don't live in a parallel universe. They live in the same
world that we all do. So just like the Chinese guy who spends his life
in Chinatown but still manages to pick up small bits and pieces of the
 local cutlure, wizards also pick up bits and pieces of the culture
that surrounds them. 

I'm guessing an old Buddhist/Confuscius Chinese guy who lives isolated
in London's Chinatown, probably still send Christmas present to his
nephews and nieces who live in London. Those nephews and nieces, being
less rigidly tied to the 'old ways' probably have addapted to modern
London life much better than their uncle. Just like Fred and George
have adapted to the muggle world to a much greater degree than Mr.
Weasley. 

Also, there is no reason to believe that Wizard's aren't Christians.
The measure of Christian is not how often he goes to church. In fact,
I would suspect that both in England and in the US, a majority of
people who readily call themselves Christian are not outwardly or
actively involved in 'commercial' religious organizations or churches.
 They, like me, prefer to make their own personal peace with God, and
leave the hypocrits to go through the motions of religion. [Not to in
any way imply that everyone who takes an active part in Church is a
hypocrit.]

Again, I end by saying that I don't see any inconsistency. I can see
sufficient knowledge and basic participation in Christmas and Easter
which are ancient traditions while at the same time lacking detailed
knowledge of the muggle world as very reasonable and believable.

Of course, that's just one man's opinion.

bboy_mn